# Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions



## Srirangan

*Indian Air Force to purchase 200 MRCA's*

Date: 22/11/2005
Agency: Various Agencies
Topics: india indian air force defense military 

India will increase the number of Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) it plans to buy to 200, opening the door for more than one supplier, said Air Force and Ministry of Defence officials.

The Indian Cabinet Committee on Security, which clears major defense programs, in October accepted the Air Force's proposal to increase the number from the original 126, for which a request for information already has been sent to overseas vendors. The value of the original contract was $5 billion; the revised plan brings the combined value of one or more contracts to $8.5 billion.

A senior Defence Ministry official said the Air Force plans to phase out 60 of its 140 Jaguar aircraft in the next five years, by which time MMRCAs would start arriving. The additional planes will replace more Jaguars, aging MiG-23s, and some squadrons of MiG-27s, an Air Force official said.

The official said the first batch of MMRCAs could be supplied by one vendor, and perhaps the second lot could be made in India under licensed production from the same or a different vendor.

A request for information for the initial 126 planes was sent to Lockheed Martin for its F-16, Saab for the JAS 39 Gripen, Russian Aircraft Corporation MiG (RAC MiG) for the MiG-29 SMT, and Dassault Aviation for the Mirage 2000-5. Boeing also has offered its F/A-18 aircraft for consideration, as has RAC MiG for the MiG-35.

The indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) is due to replace the services MiG-21 combat aircraft, but that program is more than a decade behind schedule. The LCA is slated for limited production by 2007 or 2008.

Defence Ministry sources said it will be difficult for the government to choose among the four vendors because political and strategic considerations must be weighed in addition to technical factors.

The sources noted that the move to buy up to 200 MMRCAs would certainly ease the governments burden, as more then one type of MMRCA could be selected.

They said the Air Force favors the French Mirage 2000-5 aircraft, but cannot ignore the firm from Russia, which is the largest supplier of arms and equipment to the Indian Defense Forces. However, it has been a year since Moscow and India have penned an arms deal. Russia has insisted India first sign an intellectual property rights accord on defense equipment and weapons, which would not allow Indias Russian-built weaponry to be upgraded or fitted with equipment from a third country.

Another consideration is that India and the United States have entered into a new strategic partnership, with Washington agreeing to provide nuclear and space technology for civilian use. The purchase of the F-16 or F/A-18 would signal the beginning of a new defense relationship between India and the United States, said Surya Pal Singh, retired Indian Air Force air commodore.

The purchase of two types of MMRCAs not only will help speed up acquisition of the aircraft, it also may help the Air Force acquire American aircraft, which have been offered with the latest radar, Singh said.

India wants as part of the MMRCA package the U.S. Active Electronically Scanned Array radar as well as new-generation missiles, the Defence Ministry official said.

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## Srirangan

The number of the MRCA deal has been increased from 126 to 200, some reports indicated 210. The speculation is that the order will be split betw more than one vendor. All four candidates appear to be equally likely, this is going to be interesting.


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## Srirangan

Actually, initially the IAF&#39;s MMRCA requirement was of 220 which was reduced to 126 around 2003-04. Now its back to its original strength. Possible combinations are anybody&#39;s guess, mine is as good as yours.

As far as the LCA, HAL has started the serial production of 40 LCA&#39;s and the first ones are expected to be inducted in 2007. FYI the LCA would never replace the Su-30 MKI&#39;s. LCA&#39;s are totally different from the Su-30 series. LCA is a light, single engined fighter, whereas the role of the MKI is that of a long range air superiority fighter/bomber.

The LCA&#39;s are expected to replace the MiG 21 and 23 series by 2015 starting 2007.


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## Kashif

> _Originally posted by Srirangan_@Nov 23 2005, 05:25 PM
> *Actually, initially the IAF&#39;s MMRCA requirement was of 220 which was reduced to 126 around 2003-04. Now its back to its original strength. Possible combinations are anybody&#39;s guess, mine is as good as yours.
> 
> As far as the LCA, HAL has started the serial production of 40 LCA&#39;s and the first ones are expected to be inducted in 2007. FYI the LCA would never replace the Su-30 MKI&#39;s. LCA&#39;s are totally different from the Su-30 series. LCA is a light, single engined fighter, whereas the role of the MKI is that of a long range air superiority fighter/bomber.
> 
> The LCA&#39;s are expected to replace the MiG 21 and 23 series by 2015 starting 2007.
> [post=3523]Quoted post[/post]​*



I know all things about the LCA i was just kidding 

When these 40 LCA would come out on the runways i mean to say that in how much time they will be out can you tell me time frame and how many LCAs can HAL produce in a year is it going to increase in the coming years HAL should think about the increase in the hardpoints same which i say about the Thunder.
We can see the plane coming in this generation i.e the rafales and the EU fighter they have a lot of hardpoints more then 10.


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## abhishek

As per some reports LCA would join IAF from Mar-2007 onwards.HAL is expecting to deliever all 40 planes before 2012.On the basis of these 4-5 years exp IAF can increase LCA numbers upto 200-250.So you can calculate how much time it would require for all LCA planes.


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## EagleEyes

The most competitor fighters i believe would be Mirage 2000-5, and F-18 Super Hornet in terms of qualtiy being given to IAF. Since now IAF is considering to buy 2 types of aircrafts which will not just be replacing Mig-21s but will also replacing the Jaguars of IAF. 

Mirage 2000-5 would probably be the first choice of IAF as it would give the TOT? and also is the main competitor of F-16 Block 50, considering that Pakistan is acquiring more F-16s its really looks like that Mirage 2000-5 will be likely choice in the future for IAF. Now its interesting that what other aircraft will IAF be really interested in? Will it be Mig-35 which yet not even exists or will it be Gripen which is the very possible out come of PAF in the future.

MRCA deal is getting interesting. Looking at F-18 Super Hornet i wouldn&#39;t call it very bad choice, it will bring in new qualtive weapons in the IAF inventory, and it is very highly unlikely that United States will ever slap sanctions on India, it will further improve ties of both countries, but on the other hand will significantly effect its strategical ally Russia.

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## Kaiser

> _Originally posted by WebMaster_@Nov 23 2005, 10:03 PM
> *The most competitor fighters i believe would be Mirage 2000-5, and F-18 Super Hornet in terms of qualtiy being given to IAF. Since now IAF is considering to buy 2 types of aircrafts which will not just be replacing Mig-21s but will also replacing the Jaguars of IAF.
> 
> Mirage 2000-5 would probably be the first choice of IAF as it would give the TOT? and also is the main competitor of F-16 Block 50, considering that Pakistan is acquiring more F-16s its really looks like that Mirage 2000-5 will be likely choice in the future for IAF. Now its interesting that what other aircraft will IAF be really interested in? Will it be Mig-35 which yet not even exists or will it be Gripen which is the very possible out come of PAF in the future.
> 
> MRCA deal is getting interesting. Looking at F-18 Super Hornet i wouldn&#39;t call it very bad choice, it will bring in new qualtive weapons in the IAF inventory, and it is very highly unlikely that United States will ever slap sanctions on India, it will further improve ties of both countries, but on the other hand will significantly effect its strategical ally Russia.
> [post=3548]Quoted post[/post]​*



Yes I agree with you on the Mirage 2000 choice but, I dont think India would wanna go for the F-18 Super hornet because
1)Its comeing from a not-reliable supplier for the F-18 
2)India will have to get whole new class of weapons like AIM 9L etc...
3)India will then have to maintain 6-8 different fighters
4)It&#39;ll be much easier to go for a Russian plane since there more used to them and wont have to train new pilots for a whole new plane
So there&#39;s more of a chance India might go for the MIG-35 than the F-18.


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## Pyongyang

If India is getting extra fighters that could mean they might slash the number of LCAs.


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## Kaiser

> _Originally posted by Pyongyang_@Nov 24 2005, 12:00 AM
> *If India is getting extra fighters that could mean they might slash the number of LCAs.
> [post=3559]Quoted post[/post]​*



There&#39;s already to much different types of fighters,after the MRCA deal goes through India will likely have 10-12 different fighters. Imagine the cost,training,and maitenance for all those fighters.


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## Best of the Best

If True PAF is totally F***ED if you know what i mean and if this isnt a rumor PAF better think something quick and very fast

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## Sharjeel

this would surge through the pakistani media in the next few days like a huricane and the peoples of pakistan would decide to get the F16s&#33;&#33;

so doent worry...the F16s are now confirmed&#33;


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## Owais

But we also need another 5th generation fighter with F16 like Typhoon, JSF or Jxx because if we relies on only one fighter(F16), then IAF will only focus on "how to counter F-16s?"


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## Srirangan

Typhoon isn&#39;t 5th gen.


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## Sharjeel

> _Originally posted by Srirangan_@Nov 25 2005, 01:16 AM
> *Typhoon isn&#39;t 5th gen.
> [post=3626]Quoted post[/post]​*


i think he meant 4.5> although Rafale has active cancellation which can in a sence be termed a 5th gen feature...what about the Typhoon??


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## Srirangan

Stealth, both these fighter acutely lack in stealth which is the hallmark of the F22 and the JSF programs, and also of projects like PAKFA.

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## Sharjeel

> _Originally posted by Srirangan_@Nov 25 2005, 01:47 AM
> *Stealth, both these fighter acutely lack in stealth which is the hallmark of the F22 and the JSF programs, and also of projects like PAKFA.
> [post=3629]Quoted post[/post]​*


they do lack the levels of stealth in the f22, JSF, PAKFA, JXX but never the less they do have stealthy features...(not sure about the typhoon but the rafael sure does).

the 5th generation standards do not dictate the plane must be totaly invisible..that is imposible even the f22p has a rcs al be it a very small one. the stealth specific standard asks for the plane to be designed with stealth in mind and stealth to a certain extent.....and Active Radar Cancellation does exactly that.


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## Srirangan

The Typhoon&#39;s and Rafael&#39;s hardly match the F15&#39;s & F18E&#39;s. Why are you hell bent in comparing them with the likes of Raptor&#39;s?


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## Sharjeel

> _Originally posted by Srirangan_@Nov 25 2005, 01:57 AM
> *The Typhoon&#39;s and Rafael&#39;s hardly match the F15&#39;s & F18E&#39;s. Why are you hell bent in comparing them with the likes of Raptor&#39;s?
> [post=3633]Quoted post[/post]​*


the typhoons and rafales (not sure abt rafaels WVR) have better avionics and WVR then raptors never mind the f18/16 and 15s


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## Srirangan

> _Originally posted by Yahya_@Nov 25 2005, 07:35 AM
> *the typhoons and rafales (not sure abt rafaels WVR) have better avionics and WVR then raptors never mind the f18/16 and 15s
> [post=3635]Quoted post[/post]​*


I&#39;m not too sure. Could you post some sources? Thanks.


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## Sharjeel

> _Originally posted by Srirangan_@Nov 25 2005, 02:49 AM
> * I&#39;m not too sure. Could you post some sources? Thanks.
> [post=3638]Quoted post[/post]​*


il post them later but be assured Typhoon pilots are able to sustain 12G manouvers easily and 8-10G manouvers endlessly&#33;&#33; (for minutes on end) due to their special G suites&#33;&#33;


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## miroslav

:evil:


> _Originally posted by Yahya_@Nov 24 2005, 09:02 PM
> *this would surge through the pakistani media in the next few days like a huricane and the peoples of pakistan would decide to get the F16s&#33;&#33;
> 
> so doent worry...the F16s are now confirmed&#33;
> [post=3601]Quoted post[/post]​*



No offence.

They are confirmed for last 15 years or so.

God Knows when that day of deliverance will come I will go to the Ajmer Dargah and put a *Chader *on the shrine.

Miro


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## EagleEyes

> _Originally posted by miroslav_@Nov 25 2005, 03:19 PM
> *:evil:
> 
> No offence.
> 
> They are confirmed for last 15 years or so.
> 
> God Knows when that day of deliverance will come I will go to the Ajmer Dargah and put a Chader on the shrine.
> 
> Miro
> [post=3696]Quoted post[/post]​*



Since when is IAF saying that they are looking for MRCA? 

15 years?


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## miroslav

> _Originally posted by WebMaster_@Nov 26 2005, 04:28 AM
> *Since when is IAF saying that they are looking for MRCA?ÃÂ
> 
> 15 years?ÃÂ
> [post=3704]Quoted post[/post]​*



I think for last 4 years.

Also don&#39;t compare the two procurments. PAF had the confirmed mindset for the F-16&#39;s as there was no other choice that time and even this time.

Whereas IAF is gonna choose from 4-5 different jets, so obviously it is gonna take time for decision making.

Also not to forget we had a regime change in 2004 after the national elections. So the new Government with new policies might be thinking something different and something new.

As I am hearing rumours of buying 200 Aircrafts with split order.

Finally likewise PAF who has faced sanctions and economical problems IAF is not facing any of that kind.

Thanks,

Miro


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## miroslav

*Eurofighters join the race for combat aircraft 

HUMA SIDDIQUI 
Posted online: Friday, November 25, 2005 at 0132 hours IST *

NEW DELHI, NOV 24: In a new twist to the Indian quest for the 126 medium range combat aircraft (MRCA), a fifth bidder has appeared on the scene nearly a year after the request for information were invited. 
Officials attribute the sudden emergence of EADS offering its Eurofighter Typhoon for the prestigious Indian order as a strong bid to keep the American Lockheed Martin and Boeing out of contention. 

Read the full story here.

Thanks,

Miro


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## Neo

> _Originally posted by Kaiser_@Nov 24 2005, 01:34 AM
> *There&#39;s already to much different types of fighters,after the MRCA deal goes through India will likely have 10-12 different fighters. Imagine the cost,training,and maitenance for all those fighters.*


Good point&#33;


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## EagleEyes

I understand. 

Well IAF has these choices.
Gripen
Mig-35 (very unlikely)
Su-27
Mirage-2000-5
Typhoon (very unlikely)
F-16 (very unlikely)
F-18 (very unlikely)

Which one do you really think will be the best option for IAF in terms of its tactics, countering the enemy, as well as maintainance and cost of it.

Regards,
Ahsan F



> _Originally posted by miroslav_@Nov 26 2005, 05:42 AM
> *I think for last 4 years.
> 
> Also don&#39;t compare the two procurments. PAF had the confirmed mindset for the F-16&#39;s as there was no other choice that time and even this time.
> 
> Whereas IAF is gonna choose from 4-5 different jets, so obviously it is gonna take time for decision making.
> 
> Also not to forget we had a regime change in 2004 after the national elections. So the new Government with new policies might be thinking something different and something new.
> 
> As I am hearing rumours of buying 200 Aircrafts with split order.
> 
> Finally likewise PAF who has faced sanctions and economical problems IAF is not facing any of that kind.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Miro
> [post=3728]Quoted post[/post]​*


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## miroslav

> _Originally posted by WebMaster_@Nov 27 2005, 02:11 AM
> *I understand.
> 
> Well IAF has these choices.
> Gripen
> Mig-35 (very unlikely)
> Su-27
> Mirage-2000-5
> Typhoon (very unlikely)
> F-16 (very unlikely)
> F-18 (very unlikely)
> 
> [post=3811]Quoted post[/post]​*



Sorry MiG-35 and or MiG-29SMT/OVT is not unlikely. Never underestimate the Russian lobby in the MoD of India. Also from where you got Su-27???

After having Su-30 MKI in 200 numbers I dont see a need of Su-27. Also never heared of that option for the MRCA&#39;s.



> *Which one do you really think will be the best option for IAF in terms of its tactics, countering the enemy, as well as maintainance and cost of it.*



My personal choice is a split order of Mirages and MiG-35&#39;s.

You never know the actual cost but maintainance is not a problem for IAF.

We are overhauling MiG&#39;s and producing some of them for years.

Mirage overhauling facility has already established at Kanpur since 1998.

Thanks,

Miro


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## abhishek

Miro dear,
Why are you so damn supporter of Mirages why? are mirage4k series is best fighters now days? why cant mig-35?


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## miroslav

> _Originally posted by abhishek_@Dec 6 2005, 02:42 PM
> *Miro dear,
> Why are you so damn supporter of Mirages why?ÃÂ  are mirage4k series is best fighters now days? why cant mig-35?
> [post=4483]Quoted post[/post]​*



and who told you that Mirage-4K are the best???

The Frenchie&#39;s themselves dosent use it.

Here is some history: - 

Dassault had no buyers for the big Mirage 4000 and it was mothballed for a few years, but pulled out of retirement in 1986 with a spiffy new desert camouflage scheme to be used as a test platform for the Rafale fighter. By 1995, however, it had taken up permanent residence as an exhibit at the Paris Air & Space Museum. 

MiG-35 is not developed totally. We have to invest a much more time for the actual induction of 100+ crafts in case of split order.

Also not to forget the Russian spare supply problems.

Miro


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## akula

WebMaster,Nov 26 2005, 10:11 PM

Well IAF has these choices.
Gripen It is powered by American engines and more prone to sanctions. They may not supply spares in wartime. 

Mig-35 (very unlikely) On the contrary likely. Its upgraded with new radar, better avionics and better engine. India has sizable number of these and can be upgraded. Also better manageable in terms of spares as navy will also operate them. 

Su-27 No its too heavy for the intended role

Mirage-2000-5 Yes a good aircraft with good avionics, high wing loading and easy maintenance of engine backed by good reliability (unlike M 29 engine). Has proven itself in Kargil. But IAF might be looking for a scaled down version of Rafale or a highly upscaled version of M 2K. A recent report on M 4k seems to suggest that IAF may be interested in twin engine option.

Typhoon (very unlikely), F-16 (very unlikely) and F-18 (very unlikely) The experience of Navy with Seaking and Harrier upg was nasty. American stuff is good with its history of unreliable spares provider to Pak, Iran and recently Venezuela, IAF may not be keen on that

Which one do you really think will be the best option for IAF in terms of its tactics, countering the enemy, as well as maintainance and cost of it.

Mig 29(35) and M2K order may be with a split up.


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## EagleEyes

> *Also not to forget the Russian spare supply problems.
> *



What are the problems? Why can't it provide spare parts without difficulties?


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## miroslav

> _Originally posted by WebMaster_@Dec 7 2005, 01:24 AM
> *What are the problems? Why can't it provide spare parts without difficulties?
> 
> Regards,
> 
> [post=4520]Quoted post[/post]​*



Russia's avionics industry was spreaded up all over the USSR back in good old days.

After collapse of Soviet Union all the factories were divided into different countries and due to lack of money there was no quality production and R&D etc.

For E.g: - Antonov main factory left in Ukraine and so on.

IAF had a very difficult time since 90's and our great MoD babu's started procuring spares from some Private firms etc which caused more damage.

If there is a purchase from Russia the ddeal should go like the Su-30 Programme where IAF dont have to depend anyone except HAL.

Thanks,

Miro


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## EagleEyes

All MRCA News & Discussions


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## Keysersoze

Can any Indian members tell us if they hve any indication of when the order is going to be placed?


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## Adux

The RFP's have not been issued till now. So you never know.


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## EagleEyes

I expect this discussion to continue for years to come.


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## Adux

I was thinking more in terms of decades.


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## Keysersoze

I have been reading that the requirement was an issue in 1998 and that the Govt only issued the tenders in the last few years (I can't remember the exact date. 2003/4 I believe.) the question has to be asked....What the hell are they waiting for? The entire fleet to have crashed? It will take a few years for the order to be completed as well so there will be a shortfall until it is done. The longer they wait the longer this shortfall will be.


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## Adux

Politics is wierd


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## Adux

MIG- 35


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## Neo

Wow, nice pics!
How many hardpoints does it have?


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## Contrarian

MiG 35 has 11 hardpoints.

RFP is expected to be out THIS YEAR itself.

I fcuking love MiG 35. Its by far the best thing in the MRCA contest. Only F/A-18E/F is a competitor, but i dont think its worth it going for F-18. Logistics, maintenance, training, manufacturing components etc, etc.

MiG 35 would be plug and play for India. Plus it would be superior to the Su-30MKI till Su also gets an AESA. It would lack the strike package of F-18 though when MKI'zed it would be made up with Israeli armaments.

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## BATMAN

Hello all,

LetÃ¢â¬â¢s analyse what will be IndiaÃ¢â¬â¢s final pick in there future acquisition of fighter jets?
Are there any solid reasons of delay or its just negotiating techniques to get the best out of the deal?
At the end it will be one or two who gets the order but how does other suppliers exercise there options (if they have any!) considering the fact that India will not place any more orders for long time to come, perhaps no more procurement till 2030.
After this new procurement, how LCA will fit in IAF?
And really why; for the first time IAF is embarking on such a mass accumulation of destruction machines.
Last biggest strengthening of IAF was witnessed in 1963-64 and a war followed between India and Pakistan i.e. 1965. Would there be any similar quest trailing again?


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## Adux

http://ia.rediff.com/news/2005/sep/08war1.htm

Read that, Understand the real reason of 1965.

Procurement policy of India after 2020 cannot be predicted at this point of time and is a futile excersise.

Delay can be from the Nuke Deal, as well as other factors

Stregthening of Indian Airforce took place after 1962 war with China which had nothing to do with Pakistan


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## Adux

LCA will replace the Mig-21's
MMRCA (MiG-35/F-18/F-16/Gripen/Rafale/Eurofighter) will replace Mig-23/27


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## BATMAN

Adux said:


> LCA will replace the Mig-21's
> MMRCA (MiG-35/F-18/F-16/Gripen/Rafale/Eurofighter) will replace Mig-23/27



If LCA is got to replace the Mig 21 than it means India plan to continue with flying coffins at least for 10 more years, considering development, production and training etc.  

MMRCA...! forget it, None of above will be inducted in IAF for another 6-7 years to come.  
It will be interesting to see the new developments by than, specially the JF-17.


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## BATMAN

Adux said:


> Procurement policy of India after 2020 cannot be predicted at this point of time and is a futile excersise.



If induction of IAF's new fighter jets start in 2015 and completes in 2020, than I persume those newely bought jets will remain in service at least for 10 more years to come! Considering the 30 years long service of mig21 in IAF and still serving.:?: 

[/QUOTE] Delay can be from the Nuke Deal, as well as other factors [/QUOTE]

You mean to say negotiating nuke deal and rewarding the supplier in a way buying jets. 
Good dimension to think.. seriously!



Adux said:


> Stregthening of Indian Airforce took place after 1962 war with China which had nothing to do with Pakistan



Come on... India was too busy with war in 1962 to start any sort of training or induction. It all started in 1963 and completed in 1964 (300% increase) and invaded Pakistan 1965.


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## con

BATMAN said:


> It all started in 1963 and completed in 1964 (300% increase) and invaded Pakistan 1965.



300% increment in defence ability within a year????? Is it pratically possible?

Lets say if IAF had 200 planes and to increase in to 800(300%),i.e 600 aircraft in on year. one word AMAZING!


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## BATMAN

con said:


> 300% increment in defence ability within a year????? Is it pratically possible?



IAF was 28000 officers before 1962 war and restrengthed in 1964 to 100'000 officers.
Was this practicle enough!


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## Contrarian

Are u here to discuss MRCA or the 62 war? Cuz u'l get ripped apart in that disucssion. Chose your calling and we'l discuss that.


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## con

BATMAN said:


> IAF was 28000 officers before 1962 war and restrengthed in 1964 to 100'000 officers.
> Was this practicle enough!



Adding manpower into airforce for world's second largest population,very pratical. But 600 aircraft in one year? Please..


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## Keysersoze

The defence ministry official said, procurement of 126 Medium Range Multi-role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) will be the biggest ever purchase made by India ever since its independence which would cost the government over $9bn. Sources in the Indian defence ministry said that the ruling United Progressive Alliance government led by the Congress Party had been marred with controversies in the past in various defence scandals and therefore the present government is too shy and slow to decide on big ticket defence purchases.

Sources further added that even if the ruling government floats the tender for the MMRCA early next year it will take at least three years to carry out technical evaluation and flight trials of the various combat aircraft which will participate in the bids. Moreover the government will further take additional three to five years to take a decision on short listing the company which will win the MMRCA contract.

http://www.battle-technology.com/this_issue10.html

Sources further added that there is a debate within the defence ministry and the Indian Air Force whether the government should place the contract to different original equipment manufacturers for license production to different combat aircraft. Once these issues are sorted out only then the defence ministry will float the global tender.


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## con

keysersoze said:


> The defence ministry official said, procurement of 126 Medium Range Multi-role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) will be the biggest ever purchase made by India ever since its independence which would cost the government over $9bn. Sources in the Indian defence ministry said that the ruling United Progressive Alliance government led by the Congress Party had been marred with controversies in the past in various defence scandals and therefore the present government is too shy and slow to decide on big ticket defence purchases.
> 
> Sources further added that even if the ruling government floats the tender for the MMRCA early next year it will take at least three years to carry out technical evaluation and flight trials of the various combat aircraft which will participate in the bids. Moreover the government will further take additional three to five years to take a decision on short listing the company which will win the MMRCA contract.
> 
> http://www.battle-technology.com/this_issue10.html
> 
> Sources further added that there is a debate within the defence ministry and the Indian Air Force whether the government should place the contract to different original equipment manufacturers for license production to different combat aircraft. Once these issues are sorted out only then the defence ministry will float the global tender.



Keys,
It is after all a Multi role aircraft.One of it's role is invisibility. People wont know for generation,if it ever was/will be in IAF.


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## Contrarian

*IAF has plans to give force global combat reach: Major*

NEW DELHI, APR 9 (PTI)

*Indicating that an Aerospace Command to give India means to exploit its space assets for military purposes would take shape soon*, the new Air Force chief Fali Homi Major today said IAF has chalked out a plan to give it a truly global combat reach.

In his maiden interaction with the media after taking over as the Air Chief on March 31, he said a time-bound plan was already underway to induct top of the shelf fighters, force multipliers and other strategic assests to help the force on its way to have worldwide reach.

Denying that delay in floating international tenders for purchase of 126 Medium Range Combat Aircraft(MRCA) could hit the country's defence preparadeness, Fali Major said that all theat perceptions in the present geo-political scenario around the country has been "catered to".

Saying that the RFP for the fighters would be out soon, the Air Chief said the tenders involved *certain complex issue like Life Cycle costs, transfer of technology and framing of integrity pact, which were being worked out.

"It is for the first time that IAF as well as Ministry of Defence has come up with concepts like Life Cycle costs. So it is taking a little longer", he said.*

But, he asserted that IAF was going in for upgradation of its top of the shelf fighters like MiG-29 and Mirage 2000 to ensure the country's air power retained the cutting edge in the region in the meantime.

Along with purchase of fighters, Major said IAF was in various stages of acquiring more radars, surveillance platform and other strategic assests. On Aerospace Command, he said it would become a reality soon.

http://www.outlookindia.com/pti_news.asp?gid=73


----------



## Keysersoze

con said:


> Keys,
> It is after all a Multi role aircraft.One of it's role is invisibility. People wont know for generation,if it ever was/will be in IAF.



Dude that is the silliest thing I have ever heard........It's not like it's coming out of the skunkworks....It is a open tender.


----------



## Adux

Keyser,

I guess CON's joke is lost on you. He was not talking about Stealth. Just being sarcastic about the lengthy Indian procurement policy
It is so Stealth, that it may never see the light of day of in IAF. "Invisibility"...
lol

or am i the idiot who didnt get yours.....lol


----------



## Keysersoze

Adux said:


> Keyser,
> 
> I guess CON's joke is lost on you. He was not talking about Stealth. Just being sarcastic about the lengthy Indian procurement policy
> It is so Stealth, that it may never see the light of day of in IAF. "Invisibility"...
> lol
> 
> or am i the idiot who didnt get yours.....lol



Ah well I guess there was a misunderstanding on my part. I thought that what he was saying is that no-one will know that the plane has been purchased because of the high security around it......


----------



## Adux

keysersoze said:


> Ah well I guess there was a misunderstanding on my part. I thought that what he was saying is that no-one will know that the plane has been purchased because of the high security around it......



We guys dont do that!!!!!!!!!! lol ISI is too god, they will do a press release anyway.


----------



## con

keysersoze said:


> Ah well I guess there was a misunderstanding on my part. I thought that what he was saying is that no-one will know that the plane has been purchased because of the high security around it......



Keys,I was just being sarcastic as Adux mentioned. 
I dont think MRCA wil be so easily "visible" in the near future. Indian Babudom wil make sure that even PAF would be foxed.

What will PAF fight when they wont even "see" the MRCA in IAF?


----------



## BATMAN

malaymishra123 said:


> *IAF has plans to give force global combat reach: Major*
> 
> NEW DELHI, APR 9 (PTI)
> 
> *Indicating that an Aerospace Command to give India means to exploit its space assets for military purposes would take shape soon*,




Here we go with another India indigenous saga. Aerospace seems a big word from a mouth who has utterly failed in aeronautics!



malaymishra123 said:


> the new Air Force chief Fali Homi Major today said IAF has chalked out a plan to give it a truly global combat reach.



Ã¢â¬ËChalked out a planÃ¢â¬â¢ !!!!!! same as 30 years ago that 'LCA will replace the lethal Mig21'



malaymishra123 said:


> In his maiden interaction with the media after taking over as the Air Chief on March 31, he said a time-bound plan was already underway to induct top of the shelf fighters,
> force multipliers and other strategic assests to help the force on its way to have worldwide reach.



And short listed in the said underway plans are Mig-35/F-18/F-16/Gripen/Rafle/Eurofighter. 
I think IAF has no clue what is really Ã¢â¬ËTop of the shelfÃ¢â¬â¢. There knowledge is limited to there experience only with Russian jets and google. But what is the source of Ã¢â¬ËWorld wide reachÃ¢â¬â¢ with 126 jets? Very Impressive theory!
By the way IAF experience with Migs can not be inclined in favour of more Migs! (any disagreements with my guess)



malaymishra123 said:


> Denying that delay in floating international tenders for purchase of 126 Medium Range Combat Aircraft(MRCA) could hit the country's defence preparadeness, Fali Major said that all theat perceptions in the present geo-political scenario around the country has been "catered to".



Denying (to his own self)!!! How about comparing the specifications of IndiaÃ¢â¬â¢s present military equipment with that of Pakistan's i.e. Tanks, guns, cruise missiles, Air crafts, nuclear bomb!!



malaymishra123 said:


> Saying that the RFP for the fighters would be out soon, the Air Chief said the tenders involved *certain complex issue like Life Cycle costs, transfer of technology and framing of integrity pact, which were being worked out.*


*

I think all the time India has been using this RFP as bate to US for achieving nuclear technology. Well, to the disappointment of our US friends, seemingly the have to do more to oblige there new friends, perhaps help in development of LCA or technology transfer of F-18 might work, other wise they can forget about this RFP.



malaymishra123 said:



"It is for the first time that IAF as well as Ministry of Defence has come up with concepts like Life Cycle costs. So it is taking a little longer", he said.

Click to expand...

*
'First time'....Some people on this same thread have analysed the delays as chronic in Indian defence procurements.



malaymishra123 said:


> But, he asserted that IAF was going in for upgradation of its top of the shelf fighters like MiG-29 and Mirage 2000 to ensure the country's air power retained the cutting edge in the region in the meantime.



Exactly, by the time of first MRCA induction, balance of air power will be clearly offset by JF-17.
Who would disagree to the fact that Pakistan always prevailed in this race of balance of power i.e. achieving it far less cost and always a winner (on the field and off the field)



malaymishra123 said:


> Along with purchase of fighters, Major said IAF was in various stages of acquiring more radars, surveillance platform and other strategic assests. On Aerospace Command, he said it would become a reality soon.
> 
> http://www.outlookindia.com/pti_news.asp?gid=73



Very soon indeed.

By the way any guess what will be the final pick. I mean there must be some clues, after all RFQ will be out before 31st december 2007.


----------



## Contrarian

Lol batman, seriously, your post is not worth replying! Each one of the Indians here could rape your comments on technical grounds.


----------



## BATMAN

malaymishra123 said:


> Lol batman, seriously, your post is not worth replying! Each one of the Indians here could rape your comments on technical grounds.



I think, what 1billion plus Indians can do to me is only disagree, and I would be very keen to see how dose an Indian brain analyse the same news.
I believe if you describe technical specifications in simple units than every one should be able to understand but if you use general expressions like good, better, ****, rape etc. than you can never convince me.
You remember once you asked me that PAF don't know any thing about fighter aircrafts and I told you to define the scale of comparison! 
See, thats how technical things can be compared in black and white.
I'm sorry to say Indian way of discussion can be best described as 'If you can't convince them than confuse them'
Good day...:toast:


----------



## Adux

Some people have to learn english, my tolerence level for trolls are quite short these days


----------



## PakSniper

Adux said:


> Some people have to learn english, my tolerence level for trolls are quite short these days



Same can be said about you. 

Let me re-phrase that: how can you consider someone else a troll, if you yourself make bogus claims time to time, like in the JF-17 threads? I see no difference in the technicality of his and your post.


----------



## Adux

PakSniper said:


> Same can be said about you.
> 
> Let me re-phrase that: how can you consider someone else a troll, if you yourself make bogus claims time to time, like in the JF-17 threads? I see no difference in the technicality of his and your post.



I will not engage you in this, you are absolutly right, Oh all knowing wonder boy.

Buzz off


----------



## Contrarian

VERY WELL, like i said, your comments dont stand on any ground, allow me to prove them.




BATMAN said:


> Here we go with another India indigenous saga. Aerospace seems a big word from a mouth who has utterly failed in aeronautics!


Says WHO that its failed in aeronautics. India has developed its own plane, which Pakistan still has not done. 

Now for the main point, this does not RELATE to aeronatutics, but space capabilities. It means that the ARMED FORCES WILL USE SPACE ASSETS IN THEIR OPERATIONS.

Do you KNOW how sucessfull India is in its space endevour? If you dont, then google and you will find out, India is VERY VERY advanced in its space capabilities.

We already have our own dedicated spy sat, and its the only one known, who knows how many else are there. Ask learned members of this forum.



> Ã¢â¬ËChalked out a planÃ¢â¬â¢ !!!!!! same as 30 years ago that 'LCA will replace the lethal Mig21'


No chalked out a plan so as how to make the AF global in its reach. How hard is this for you to understand? It means that they intend to induct new planes to increase size.



> And short listed in the said underway plans are Mig-35/F-18/F-16/Gripen/Rafle/Eurofighter.
> I think IAF has no clue what is really Ã¢â¬ËTop of the shelfÃ¢â¬â¢. There knowledge is limited to there experience only with Russian jets and google. But what is the source of Ã¢â¬ËWorld wide reachÃ¢â¬â¢ with 126 jets? Very Impressive theory!
> By the way IAF experience with Migs can not be inclined in favour of more Migs! (any disagreements with my guess)


LOL, you are CLUELESS, you have no idea about anythhing dude. Seriously, read up, do you not wonder why any other senior member posted stuff like you have? Read more, post less.

The planes listed are indeed TOP OF TE LINE. India operates Mirage 2000 and is now being converted to Mirage 2005, so puh-lease, get more information. These are planes that PAF does not even PLAN to acquire. Their induction plans are limited to J-10's lol. World wide reach means able to ecercise the military power to get diplomatic gains. 

I dont suppose you would comprehend what it means. We have no idea what IAF will chose, however we deem MiG 35 and Shornet as the top contendors for various reasons not "IAF experience with Migs can not be inclined in favour of more Migs!"....pathetic arguments.




> Denying (to his own self)!!! How about comparing the specifications of IndiaÃ¢â¬â¢s present military equipment with that of Pakistan's i.e. Tanks, guns, cruise missiles, Air crafts, nuclear bomb!!


LOL, i never thought youd say this....BY ALL MEANS COMPARE.
India has more tanks, more advanced planes, more in number, more guns, more cuise missiles, more number of nucllear bombs, more everything. If you wanna compare please start a new thread, and i am SURE you will get enlightened about the full size of India's military machine.



> I think all the time India has been using this RFP as bate to US for achieving nuclear technology. Well, to the disappointment of our US friends, seemingly the have to do more to oblige there new friends, perhaps help in development of LCA or technology transfer of F-18 might work, other wise they can forget about this RFP.


What the HELL are you talking about?? tech transfer of F-18 might work?? What man? Post properly.



> 'First time'....Some people on this same thread have analysed the delays as chronic in Indian defence procurements.
> 
> 
> 
> Can you NOT EVEN READ. Your quoted portion clearly says that IAF is for the first time using concepts such as 'life cycle costs', etc, etc which till now was non-existant in IAF's dictionary. How the hell is your answer even related??
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly, by the time of first MRCA induction, balance of air power will be clearly offset by JF-17.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah right...surely JF-17 will blast MiG 35s/ F/A-18E/F's or Rafale's out of the sky!! My god, do you know what actually IS JF-17? A MEDIUM tech fighter. A $15 mill plane.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Who would disagree to the fact that Pakistan always prevailed in this race of balance of power i.e. achieving it far less cost and always a winner (on the field and off the field)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Always a winner? In what? Not knowing anything? When has Pakistan won ANY War? When has it achieved ANY victory over India (on or off the field)!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Very soon indeed.
> 
> By the way any guess what will be the final pick. I mean there must be some clues, after all RFQ will be out before 31st december 2007.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 3 contendors main-MiG 35, Shornet, Rafale.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## Adux

BAE in battle for $15bn fighter orders from India and Japan 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/to...cle1633019.ece

BAE Systems has entered a dogfight with the world&#8217;s leading makers of combat jets to secure orders from India and Japan worth up to $15 billion (ÃÂ£7.6 billion). 

The Times understands that both the Indian and Japanese Governments will take a significant step towards replacing their ageing fighters in October, and defence companies are positioning themselves to win the lucrative contracts. 

BAE is attempting to sell the Eurofighter Typhoon to both countries but Europe&#8217;s leading fighter is up against American F16s and F18s and Russia&#8217;s Mig-29. 

Japanese officials recently visited BAE&#8217;s base at Warton, Lancashire to see a Typhoon demonstration and the company&#8217;s representatives are promoting the aircraft in India. 

The Indians and Japanese are expected to issue a request for proposals in October, which will formally ask companies to submit a tender for the replacement programme. 

Following BAE&#8217;s success in selling 72 Eurofighters to Saudi Arabia, the British company is leading efforts to sell to India and Japan on behalf of the other Eurofighter partners, Germany, Italy and Spain. 

The Indians want to buy 126 fighters to replace their old Mig21s in a deal worth up to $9 billion. 

The Japanese are replacing their 90-strong fleet of F4s, which are now 35 years old, in a deal that could cost between $6 billion and $10 billion. 

The Japanese have always bought US military hardware in the past but in a significant breakthrough for the Eurofighter consortium, officials have admitted they are now looking at the Typhoon. 

Analysts in Japan believe that this change in position reflects surprise that the country was not &#8220;trusted&#8221; by US Congress to buy F22s. Congress has blocked the sale of Lockheed Martin&#8217;s F22 to any foreign government but if the ban was lifted it would probably head the Japanese wish-list. 

The US is trying to sell Boeing&#8217;s F18 Hornet to Japan but military analysts have said that the jet does not meet the country&#8217;s needs. 

Japanese reluctance to buy anything other than American military hardware has been eroding in recent years. In 2005 the Japan Coastguard bought Augusta Westland EH-101 helicopters rather than American competitors. 

The Indian Government is considering a wider range of possible replacement aircraft. It has traditionally bought from Russia, which still offers the most cost-effective fighters, but last year received clearance from the US to buy F16s and F18s. Other candidates for the Indian order include Dassault&#8217;s Rafale and Saab&#8217;s Gripen. 

A BAE spokeswoman said: &#8220;BAE Systems, on behalf of the Eurofighter Consortium, is leading activity to position Typhoon in Japan to meet their FX fighter requirement. We are also aware that India has a requirement for 126 multi-role combat aircraft. We await details of what the Indian air force requires and Eurofighter will respond accordingly.&#8221;


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## Adux

Malay,

This is a very interesting development, Now just a thought,
If India can time its purchase according to the Japanese Purchase of Typhoon. We would be able to get a very competitive price therefore reducing unit cost. Typhoon is better than everything over there in contention


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## Contrarian

I STRONGLY disagree. I say if the MiG 35 is MKI'zed then it will be superior to the Typhoon. The only thing we will not get is american munitions that go along with the Typhoon. However with the new range of Russian munitions comming out, this would not be an issue. The rest of the void is filled by Israel.

The Typhoon excels in a2a, and is not at all good in a2g. MiG 35 too excels in a2a and along with AESA it should be a verry formidable enemy. It has good a2g as well. Typhoon would be a mistake for us. If the MiG 35 is not mki'zed then indeed Typhoon is better.


----------



## Adux

Malay,

MiG-35 is no where close to Typhoon, Come lets not take jingoism close to the unbelieveable heights. There is no way a Rafale, MIG-35 Gripen F-18 is a anywhere close to that of Typhoon. 

Typhoon's Ground attack is still not developed. Japanese Airforce is going for the Typhoon cuz it is not allowed the F-22. Please. RCS, Super Cruise Eng on the Development, MTBF, A2A package, Composite Materials, the list is endless, An MKIzed 1970's design to that of a true 4th Generation. There is nothing close to the F-22 other than the Typhoon now


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## Contrarian

Dude, RCS for MiG 35 is down by a factor of 10 to almost that or exceeding the one of Typhoon, Jap AF HAS NOT SAID IT WILL GO FOR TYPHOON. They have just started their MRCA quest and they said Typhoon is in contention. 

Weapons, we got new R-77 and R-74 comming right up. Super cruise is missing, but let me say Typhoon consotirum has advertised that it has supercruise, but it is yet to be shown.

The only thing i will not contest is in composites. Though i can say that MiG 35 uses more than 15% composites. I dont know for Typhoon.


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## Adux

Malay

In a every forum worth its salt, every proffessional avaition writer, keeps the Typhoon as the second best aircraft in the world, till the F-35 comes out. I dont think there is no-way we can compare an Typhoon to a Mig-35. But knowing you, I am sure MiG-35 is your only way. I would say Rafale and Typhoon are ahead of the Shornet and MiG-35. Shornet is stil superior to MiG-35


----------



## melb4aust

Adux said:


> Malay
> 
> Everywhere forum, every proffessional avaition writer, keeps the Typhoon as the second best aircraft in the world, till the F-35 comes out. I dont think there is no-way we can compare an Typhoon to a Mig-35. But knowing you, I am sure MiG-35 is your only way. I would say Rafale and Typhoon are ahead of the Shornet and MiG-35. Shornet is stil superior to MiG-35



Well. i am with Adu........here.

Perhaps MIG-35 is like a sensual fantasy for mishraa jii


----------



## Keysersoze

Adux said:


> Malay
> 
> Everywhere forum, every proffessional avaition writer, keeps the Typhoon as the second best aircraft in the world, till the F-35 comes out. I dont think there is no-way we can compare an Typhoon to a Mig-35. But knowing you, I am sure MiG-35 is your only way. I would say Rafale and Typhoon are ahead of the Shornet and MiG-35. Shornet is stil superior to MiG-35



I'm afraid I have to agree with Adux as well dude.


----------



## Neo

Me three....


----------



## Contrarian

Lol, it seems i am alone 

'I will go it alone' then.

I already TOLD you adux, that MiG 35 in its production form is inferior to teh Typhhon, however i challenge that after it has been modified. 

JAPAN HAS NOT BOUGHT THE TYPHOON, get that first.
Then, Typhoon has PATHETIC ground attack, somethign MiG 35 is FAR FAR better in. Next Typhoon has been made with a CLEAR a2a bias in mind, however MiG 35 is able to challenge that because of its TVC. 

I repeat dont continue on RCS. The Russians have reduced its RCS by quite a lot, its in teh same league as the Typhoon.

What a2a package are u talking about, new Russian a2a packages are comming. It seems you just like western stuff. All MiG 35 needs is a bit of TIME to make it better. With the new russian missiles comming, the a2a package is better than the one Typhoon has.

Supercruise is under development in Typhoon. If you take that as well along with composites, these are the only two things i cannot argue against. But are these two things the determining factor. I dont think so. Supercruise and composites alone dont make a winner.

If you wanna compare the two properly, im all for it. I say MiG 35 when modded, will be BETTER than Typhoon. You have to first understand the MiG 35 before commenting that it is inferior. Its not the same 80's design. Its been redesigned extensively using three basic models before the designation MiG 35. 

So please, im not being jingoistic, cuz we dont have the plane yet. But i think its a great plane, and far better than Shornet. And i am willing to challenge every one here for it.

Incidentally, what is the percentage of composites used in Typhoon, adux?


----------



## Adux

Self Deleted


----------



## Contrarian

You dont know, probably i am getting some commision from the RAC MiG corp 

I dont care whether i get shot down. What i do know is that you are following Typhoon blindly without knowing the MiG 35. saying stuff like aam package etc is better. Thats talking plain wrong!


----------



## Adux

Seriously Malay, Tell me what is that you know about the typhoon aka Eurofighter. 
I am sure you know that i am aware quite a bit about the MIG-35.
RCS of a MiG reduced by 7 times, to that of a plane built on composites and made for RCS reduction. There is no equivalent for Meteor, and latest amram series. Super Cruise. If Russia is developing , so are other nations. Air-Ground mode has not been installed in the Typhoon yet, cuz it is on development. Tranche 4 will be equipped. Typhoon AESA is supposed to be the best in the World, Electronics wise, Just like the IAF I prefer Western. You dont anything about it dude, sorry. MIG-35 isnt even as good as Shornet, Only in WVR dog fight, Rest even with all the MKIzed stuff. You cant compare it to a Typhoon and Rafale, and SuperHornet Necks it out. Super Cruise and RCS reduction to near stealth, makes so much of a difference
I will not post any more on this.


----------



## Contrarian

Dont take the high road on me!! lol

Well, cool if you dont wanna discuss it, though i am willing to swear MiG 35 is head and shoulders above the Shornet ATLEAST.


----------



## Adux

malaymishra123 said:


> Dont take the high road on me!! lol
> 
> Well, cool if you dont wanna discuss it, though i am willing to swear MiG 35 is head and shoulders above the Shornet ATLEAST.



So now you make it just the Shornet,
In what ways other than Manoverbility is it better than the Shornet.
AESA, Armamemts, Range, Payload, Avionics, Combat Record. etc etc etc. Stop making judgements on unproven sales broucher talk.


----------



## melb4aust

malaymishra123 said:


> Well, cool if you dont wanna discuss it, though i am willing to swear MiG 35 is head and shoulders above the Shornet ATLEAST.



hmnnnn...ur getting there..gradually ......


----------



## Contrarian

No, i said "ATLEAST" for Shornet.

AESA i said can be fitted from Israel. Shornet's AESA is facing a LOT of problems and it will take time to rectify them. Armaments, i cannot say for that, the a2g complements of US are the best, though we are procuring some from Israel including Delilah. Avionics, i really dont think you should comment on that. Russian a2a munitions are more than sufficient, the new ones that is. Those that are being made for T-50.

This is hog wash saying blindly that Shornet has better avionics. MiG 35 ALSO has excellent avionics, i have posted the articles in MiG 35 thread. 

Combat record, that does not mean anything nowadays.


----------



## Adux

Shornets are Avionics are out in the open, While MIG-35 most dont even know what they are, SO you assume that they are good. AESA which is operational has problems, granted .,....funny you take it over a non-operational AESA from a country which doesnt have the computer-building capacity as the USA. Those articles you posted are ejculating on Data Provided by the Manufactures; I wont take that sorry. Why is the Russian Government not interested in this machine, while ordering more Su-30. MIG-35 is the last ditch effort to save a sinking company, Its a good aircraft, I agree but to compare it to Rafale and Typhoon is ludicrous. Shornet is a better aircarft other than on manoverbility, period.


----------



## Contrarian

This is not the US, the 'period' wont do. In any case, it is not necessary for the RuAF to buy every a/c that the country produces. They might not need the aircraft, it might not fit their requirements, etc, etc. Countries dont buy aircrafts and fit their operational needs according to it. Countries buy aircrafts that fit in their operational needs. This is a baseless argument.

Well you have your opinion adux, i have mine. Lets leave it like that. I feel that MiG 35 would be the best buy for India, however all the aircraft in contention are top of the line, any a/c bought will not make me sorry, well apart from Gripen that is.lol.


----------



## Adux

MIG 35 being the BEst BUY for India, is different from being the second best aircarft in the world after the F-22.
Specs-wise Typhoon , Rafale, Shornet are far better
Of this 3, the Typhoon is the better one


----------



## Contrarian

I still keep my reservations about it being inferior to the other platforms.


----------



## BATMAN

malaymishra123 said:


> VERY WELL, like i said, your comments dont stand on any ground, allow me to prove them.
> 
> Says WHO that its failed in aeronautics. India has developed its own plane, which Pakistan still has not done.



Who are you? .. LCA is Indian dream and JF-17 is Pak reality.



malaymishra123 said:


> Now for the main point, this does not RELATE to aeronatutics, but space capabilities. It means that the ARMED FORCES WILL USE SPACE ASSETS IN THEIR OPERATIONS.



Dream on... No one out side India believe in your fantasies.



malaymishra123 said:


> Do you KNOW how sucessfull India is in its space endevour? If you dont, then google and you will find out, India is VERY VERY advanced in its space capabilities.



Kindly, refer a link which certify your VERY VERY advance space capabilities.



malaymishra123 said:


> We already have our own dedicated spy sat, and its the onlone known, who knows how many else are there. Ask learned members of this forum.



What do you mean by ''our own''. You have nothing of your own. Even your basic industries are left over from ''east India compay''.



malaymishra123 said:


> No chalked out a plan so as how to make the AF global in its reach. How hard is this for you to understand? It means that they intend to induct new planes to increase size.



I meant to say that all your plans from past have failed miserably.
In 1984 you planned to build LCA suppose to be the leading jet in IAF by 1993 and yet today 2007 you have different plans, now come back in 2010.
Now you know why it is hard to understand your marvelous claims.



malaymishra123 said:


> LOL, you are CLUELESS, you have no idea about anythhing dude. Seriously, read up, do you not wonder why any other senior member posted stuff like you have? Read more, post less.
> 
> The planes listed are indeed TOP OF TE LINE. India operates Mirage 2000 and is now being converted to Mirage 2005, so puh-lease, get more information. These are planes that PAF does not even PLAN to acquire. Their induction plans are limited to J-10's lol. World wide reach means able to ecercise the military power to get diplomatic gains.



I mean to say that this is the list IAF is showing the whole world from long time and even a child can prepare such a list with the help of wikipedia and IAF know nothing beyond this.
Don't lol for JF-17 because you will be crying after clicking the link below.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JF-17#Related_content
No body really knows the true specifications of J-10 so don't draw conclusions without inputs.



malaymishra123 said:


> I dont suppose you would comprehend what it means. We have no idea what IAF will chose, however we deem MiG 35 and Shornet as the top contendors for various reasons not "IAF experience with Migs can not be inclined in favour of more Migs!"....pathetic arguments.
> 
> LOL, i never thought youd say this....BY ALL MEANS COMPARE.
> India has more tanks, more advanced planes, more in number, more guns, more cuise missiles, more number of nucllear bombs, more everything. If you wanna compare please start a new thread, and i am SURE you will get enlightened about the full size of India's military machine.
> 
> What the HELL are you talking about?? tech transfer of F-18 might work?? What man? Post properly.



I can bet IAF will not buy Mig and demanding from USA to transfer the technology of shornet becomes too big together with uranium enriching technology and can only succed if all americans may go crazy.
I meant to compare technical specs and you are comparing numbers...you are a cheif dude.



malaymishra123 said:


> Can you NOT EVEN READ. Your quoted portion clearly says that IAF is for the first time using concepts such as 'life cycle costs', etc, etc which till now was non-existant in IAF's dictionary. How the hell is your answer even related??



Bulshit, In such scenario mig is the obvious choice, which will not be the case.
I still insist this delay is just negotiating technique to get more.



malaymishra123 said:


> Yeah right...surely JF-17 will blast MiG 35s/ F/A-18E/F's or Rafale's out of the sky!! My god, do you know what actually IS JF-17? A MEDIUM tech fighter. A $15 mill plane.
> 
> Always a winner? In what? Not knowing anything? When has Pakistan won ANY War? When has it achieved ANY victory over India (on or off the field)!



:wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: 
Projected unit cost of LCA is 35million USD do you think this put it in the same class as rafale.



malaymishra123 said:


> 3 contendors main-MiG 35, Shornet, Rafale.



Keep your bullshit to your self and don't mislead us all here.
I tell you following are out of race mig, mirrage, gripen, any US so what is left is Typhoon.


----------



## Contrarian

Batman, your posts have no technical standing, i cease. 
I would waste my time explaining everything to you when you are clearly here not to learn something more but just to make a mockery of discussion.


----------



## joey

Whoever says Mig 35 is anything less than F18 is making a grave mistake.

Let me sum up somethings,

Issues with mig 35,

Shorter life than F18 but do we intend to keep a fighter for 50 years? 6000 hours for first engine overhaul is algith!
Still not fully developed.
etc etc.

Problems with F18,

Firstly What is on offer is the F18 Block 1 and not Block 2 and if anyone here is aware of what F18 will be for USN wont be for India, like say US has seperate night vision instruments for them and for export, with albeit less lumix power.

The F18 block 1 issues,

No IRST

Radar has teething problems revealed in flightglobal as it is made by westinghouse aka Northrop grumman who are not so much matured in maknig AESA, it has software glitches,.

Costs HUGE, The aussie deal with having experience training to operate american weapons costed 145mn$ each, India is just developing state without putting so much money on it it will be better to buy Mig 35 and invest 2bn$ for MCA which ADA has asked for.

Apart from this, The block 2 is a kickass fighter but is not on offer and neither Boeing has done with developements, expect 145mn$ per piece plus whatever required to upgrade to block 2 standards.


What mig 35 lacks?

Good AESA : ELM 2052 is there which is even better than APG 81 of JSF.
True Solid state SPJ jammer : Mig has signed deal with fincinnametti of Italy for their latest true solid state jammer.
It has latest Targetting pod.
It doesnt lacks any "munitions"

What India gains though mig 35, it already is going to manufacture mig33MK engines.
It can use its own computers, IRST and weapons.

Considering these factors mig 35 is no less than Eurofighter/Rafale/F18 block 1.

Rafale is a overhyped white elephant, upgrade mirage 2005 and you can have 80% of what Rafale has.

My choice would be Rafale and Mig 35, Rafale in 2 squadron number for dedicated strile role and specially for hacing access to the Meteor BVRAAM.


----------



## joey

Adux said:


> Shornets are Avionics are out in the open, *While MIG-35 most dont even know what they are*,


Like garry says, Peoples says russian avionics are junk but where junk it is they fails to say.



> SO you assume that they are good. AESA which is operational has problems, granted .,....funny you take it over a non-operational AESA from a country which doesnt have the *computer-building capacity as the USA*.


Israel doesnt has operational AESa?

What do you require movable electronic doors to have "as USA" mark?
Russia has acquired recently the whole AMD fabrication plant for defence needs.





> Those articles you posted are ejculating on Data Provided by the Manufactures; I wont take that sorry. Why is the Russian Government not interested in this machine, while ordering more Su-30. MIG-35 is the last ditch effort to save a sinking company, Its a good aircraft, *I agree but to compare it to Rafale and Typhoon is ludicrous.* Shornet is a better aircarft other than on manoverbility, period.



Mig have worked on mig 35 for more than meets the eye, its impossible to make mig 35 within 2 years and put it in airshow.

fear not, MKI MK3 will meet Typhoon next year, As i said Taking rafale for granted from internet is as ridiculous as gross generalisation your making.

Mig 35 of tomorrow will surpass what Rafale will have by 2010.


----------



## Adux

Joey,

You are expecting Rafale not to improve till 2010, while the russians will.
I love russian hardware, Go see my russian video section in this forum. But to call MiG 35 equal to Typhoon, is idiotic. 
AMD just gave them a manufacturing plant, and you think that is enough to make military grade chips.Funny
Russians have been good and have pioneered lots of first, For example : the FBW, the First HMCS etc etc.
Electronics, Networking, Americans are ahead. Americans have jumped ahead far ahead in the last 20 years. It will take russians some more time to catch up. but they will.
Americans have the only operational AESA on a Fighter. I am not sure if Israel has or not, if they do have it on the Sufa's then it is the Raytheon. 

Elta is going to take a bit more time. I would take the Elta over the Zhuk

PS:I do know of Garry from KeyPub, I do read your posts there, I only post at this forum. I like it here.

Just a piece of advice, Please do consider why we are buying the MMRCA.
We are buying to replace the MiG-27/23. They are strike platforms, IAF lacks a true strike platform. While MiG 35 is a Superiority Fighter/Interceptor....

Russian Munitions A2G mode arent that great now, If we go for a Western Platform Meteor is a good possibility.
I am not a SuperBug Fan, But for the role we are looking for The best suited is F/A-18 SuperHornet Block II. Not the MiG, Typhoon, Rafale or Gripen. Maybe Rafale to some extend. 
Hornet's Naval Traditions are a plus for us. Munitions and Avionics are great, USN is planning to use till 2030-35. Therefore garunteed upgrade's etc.
MiG -35, Tell me when the RuAF is interested. All the other planes have been built according to Reduction of RCS, except the MIG.
I am sorry MiG comes for me after superbug, Rafale, Typhoon, MIG, Gripen.


----------



## joey

Adux said:


> Joey,
> You are expecting Rafale not to improve till 2010, while the russians will.
> I love russian hardware, Go see my russian video section in this forum. But to call MiG 35 equal to Typhoon, is idiotic.


And why is it so? is it because you hear in forums su30 has huge RCs and blah blah, right now Su 30 MKI has better radar than Typhoon.

Mig 35 is not equal to typhoon, but with the required sensor fusion it will be.

What rafale improvement by 2010? French have stopped funding on rafale as of now without customer, Rafale has got some issues as well, I expect Typhoons AESA to come online around 2015, long time yawn!

Its a fallacy of thinking that worlds second best aviation industry has a product which will be bad than what whole europe produces.

NO11M bars offers most of what AESA offers albeit with less cost and a bit less functionality of choosing independent frequencies.



> AMD just gave them a manufacturing plant, and you think that is enough to make military grade chips.Funny


What do you udnerstand of producing Mil grade chips?
I have magazines odf latest Russian AESA developements.
Are you saying they lack chip designing ability?



> Russians have been good and have pioneered lots of first, For example : the FBW, the First HMCS etc etc.
> Electronics, Networking, Americans are ahead. Americans have jumped ahead far ahead in the last 20 years. It will take russians some more time to catch up. but they will.


Agree, and thats why i stated, a true solid state jammer, radar from israel, IRST from india, mission computer from India, munitions from europe/russia/india , datalinks from India ofcourse our very own Link II programme.



> Americans have the only operational AESA on a Fighter. I am not sure if Israel has or not, if they do have it on the Sufa's then it is the Raytheon.


lol they have designed Green pine radar, MF-STAR radar which is better than what single EMPAR or HERAKLES can do!!



> Elta is going to take a bit more time. I would take the Elta over the Zhuk


Anyday!



> PS:I do know of Garry from KeyPub, I do read your posts there, I only post at this forum. I like it here.
> 
> Just a piece of advice, Please do consider why we are buying the MMRCA.
> We are buying to replace the MiG-27/23. They are strike platforms, IAF lacks a true strike platform. While MiG 35 is a Superiority Fighter/Interceptor....


If Strike is what we are looking at, We should have looked for a A10 and 2 Squadrons of Tu22M3 backfire supported with 40 more MKI's.

We are looking entire multirole rather I'll say "swing role" capability, what Mig 35 offers in terms of versatility, F18 doesnt due to strings being attached to how can we use it.

we have our own datalinking programme, I dont see yanks letting us use it.


> Russian Munitions A2G mode arent that great now, If we go for a Western Platform Meteor is a good possibility.


Not really a host of new missiles are coming up, Meteor is very nice which i damn wantm it is versatile means you change the seeker it becomes ARM  



> I am not a SuperBug Fan, But for the role we are looking for The best suited is F/A-18 SuperHornet Block II. Not the MiG, Typhoon, Rafale or Gripen. Maybe Rafale to some extend.


Block 2 is not on offer and will come online by 2010, also the thigns tyou see there might not be for offer which will be for USN.

rafale is a white elephant...looks great doesnt offers too much.



> Hornet's Naval Traditions are a plus for us. Munitions and Avionics are great, USN is planning to use till 2030-35. Therefore garunteed upgrade's etc.
> MiG -35, Tell me when the RuAF is interested. All the other planes have been built according to Reduction of RCS, except the MIG.


IAF and IN has some kind of issues, they are different dont mix them, Well what suites for USN upgrade is totally unsuitable for us, look at ANY UPGRADE OF IAF and to how extent it has been done.



> I am sorry MiG comes for me after superbug, Rafale, Typhoon, MIG, Gripen.


thats youe personal opinion which you havent provided satisfactory explanation is what i feel, Rafale would be great for Vikramaditya, but for MKI'zed Mig 35? no sorry.

If today you put the things WHICH ARE NEEDED in Rafale , cost will shoot up to 130mn$ per piece, also there is a big IF if the french are willing to do what we ask them.

As I said upgrade the mirage 2005 properly you have 80% of rafales capabilities, What India needed is Mirage 5, but sadly GOI's delay made IAF suffer.


----------



## Adux

Joey,

A-10 are not Strike aircraft , they are Close air Support, Strike is a different concept all together, Tu-22M3, is a heavy striker bomber and naval too, a different role. Only if you understand this concept can you understand what the MMRCA deal is all about...

If we are looking for an offensive platform, Let me give you an example, Striking a Missile launching pad's before it is fired. 
Understand what all do we need for that? Then you will understand why the IAF needs the MMRCA. 

SuperHornet being still funded by the USN says a lot more than a Sales Brochure Plane like the MiG


----------



## joey

If anything I want is what is here,

Mig 35 with RD33MK with 3D TVC from klipsce.
Elm 2052 AESA
Internal True solid state Jammer.
Composite body when making it in India.
Indian integrated Datalinking system.
Indian integrated mission computer system.
Indo-Israeli integrated avionics.
INS/GPS from Russia.

comfortably under 45mn$ a piece.

Strike package should include,

BVR capability,

Astraa/R77/Meteor

ARM missile,

New one vympel is making and Meteor.

Naval strike package, Exocet Block 3 or NSM and Sagarika in later stages.

**** bombs:

PGM's developed by IOsraely specifically for IAF and cluster bombs.


SIVA HADF pod developed by DARE.
Lobhushka system or X-guard system from Israel.


just see the commnality and how much less will be logistic issue.
now tell me the cost or the political will to customize F18 like that or anything..

IAF customises EACH jet like Israel does.


----------



## joey

Adux said:


> Joey,
> 
> A-10 are not Strike aircraft , they are Close air Support, Strike is a different concept all together, Tu-22M3, is a heavy striker bomber and naval too, a different role. Only if you understand this concept can you understand what the MMRCA deal is all about...
> 
> If we are looking for an offensive platform, Let me give you an example, Striking a Missile launching pad's before it is fired.
> Understand what all do we need for that? Then you will understand why the IAF needs the MMRCA



Have you checked the SIVA HADF pod? for anti-SAM role, what it needs is with its link 2 capability and passive tracking ability of it couple it with a ARM missile.

I have read a lot on MRCA everywhere it is said IAF is looking for "Swing role" aircraft!


----------



## Adux

F/A-18 Is the only true swing role. Heck it is even written Fighter / Attack
You just termed A-10 as Strike platform, They are used for supporting infantry and tanks. More on the lines of the Su-25,
You havent understood why IAF needs the MMRCA, the purpose of it in our New Doctrine of First Strike Capability.

Range,Payload, A 2 G Munitions, Datalinking and RCS reduction. In all these departments F/A-18 beats the crap out of MiG 35,We are looking at JDAMS, JSOM, HARM etc. AMRAAM, Meteor, Its a qualitative leap, Russians cant match that, unfortunatly. This is what we are looking for our new doctrine and MMRCA.. please dont give me sales brochures stuff. W

What you have written is a wish list above.


----------



## Adux

I have heard Sagarika is the SLBM name of AGNI. I could be wrong


----------



## joey

Adux said:


> F/A-18 Is the only true swing role. Heck it is even written Fighter / Attack


Yes it is Swing role, so is Mig 35 MKI'zed so is Su 30 MKI. 
J10/JF17/LCA are all multirole fighters...



> You just termed A-10 as Strike platform, They are used for supporting infantry and tanks. More on the lines of the Su-25,


When did i said A10 is a strike ac? I said on your point your talking of strike strike, I said strike is what you need get carpet bombers and support!



> You havent understood why IAF needs the MMRCA, the purpose of it in our New Doctrine of First Strike Capability.


Yeah you lvie in air hq?  , I know so what IAF doesnt has in MKI for first strike other than numbers? First strike as a whole is a big psy ops besides having obvious effect.



> Range,Payload, A 2 G Munitions, Datalinking and RCS reduction. In all these departments F/A-18 beats the crap out of MiG 35, This is what we are looking for our new doctrine and MMRCA.. *please dont give me sales brochures stuff. *
> What you have written is a wish list above.



RCS reduction.......when how why? explain please?
datalinks ? baseless!! IAF has own Datalink programme the Link II WHY ON EARTH will we use Us datalinks?

Read up on BEL's Link 2 system.

If I'm quoting self brochure stuffs (which I'm not), your quoting fanboy stuff like MKI has big rcs etc, I have seen MKI's RCS pattern graphical diagram, and it is not what being portrayed publicly, also remember it wont be what is actual.

Your looking for RCS? hell probably Gripen/LCA has lower RCS than hornet...
The term RCS is a fallacy for dirty fighters (external payload), it compensates for whatever the design.

Also it is relative term means frontal rcs to rear rcs and depends on altitude to humidity.


----------



## joey

See F18 Block 2's capability is not what I'm doubting but the feasibility versus Mig 35.

A plane which costs 145mn$ for aussie, with the customization we want it will go up to 150mn$ per piece!! do you realise that?

It doesnt offers anything "SO SPECIAL" that mig 35 doesnt, other than fancy names.

Ofcourse the shortopcmings of mig 35 is what Mig is addressing through international partnerships!


----------



## Adux

Joey,
You may believe all you want, Trying to prove you wrong on the internet is not my job.I think Su-30MKi is the best for its job,Air-Superiority.
I hope you know that comes after Strike of SAM assets by the Strike Aircarfts.
I am all for Strike cuz with MMRCA we are replacing our current Strike Aircraft MiG-27/23. MIG -35 is an Interceptor/Superiority platform, TVC etc shows you what it is tuned for. I am arguing about the role not the aircraft. I hope you get that. 
Yes Gripen/LCA might have lesser RCS, but do they have the range and payload. I hope you get it atleast now.

If we were selecting an Interceptor/Airsuperiority, we should select MIG35/Typhoon over the Hornet. Anyday.


----------



## joey

My take is still Mig 35 plus Rafale, or Typhoon, any of these two because of METEOR baby! and some other fancy packages 

If we have to buy 126, 150mn$ fighter induction starting post 2010, better was to sign for JSF.

I dont want to put asll egs in one basket nor I want India to go for one single super bug.


----------



## Adux

Joey

I already told you it is not F/A 18 is not 150 mil per plane, It includes lots of other things like, 4 spare engines per aircarft, the whole array of munitions, upgrade garuntee, etc etc, so please. 

100 F/A- 22 costs only 30 billion for the japanese according to an article I read.
(above post)Only 5 million of customization, what are we doing Formula 1 cars..lol


----------



## joey

Adux said:


> Joey,
> You may believe all you want, Trying to prove you wrong on the internet is not my job.I think Su-30MKi is the best for its job,Air-Superiority.
> I hope you know that comes after Strike of SAM assets by the Strike Aircarfts.
> I am all for Strike cuz with MMRCA we are replacing our current Strike Aircraft MiG-27/23. MIG -35 is an Interceptor/Superiority platform, TVC etc shows you what it is tuned for. I am arguing about the role not the aircraft. I hope you get that.
> Yes Gripen/LCA might have lesser RCS, but do they have the range and payload. I hope you get it atleast now.
> 
> If we were selecting an Interceptor/Airsuperiority, we should select MIG35/Typhoon over the Hornet. Anyday.



DRDO has developed a kickass POD for anti-SAM role, what you need is Meteor with a ARM seeker for strike role, and a smart missile.......

It is munitions which you can have from Europa! or Israel!

I do know Gripen(c/d)/LCa is not suitable for MRCA.

You know what India wants? Light less maintenance, kickass fighter! and "Swing role" , not only strike................

Mirage was best,
next best is Gripen E/F but that will only come by 2010.

All twin engine fighters is what firstly MRCA tried to avoid, later they chipped in due to lack of proper single engined fighter and mirage line being closed.


----------



## Adux

Heck the F/A 22 is only 166 million,Now I can say for sure that you dont have much grasp on the issue. The Aussie planes cost them 72 million FYI


----------



## Adux

See, we came up first with just replacing numbers, therefore the whole single engine thingie,
Then we wanted a fighter to suit our Doctrine, thus the twin engined, Strike platform concept


----------



## Adux

Europe and Israel uses American Munitions. Do you even understand the value of JSOM, JDAM, HARM missiles in terms of First Strike Capability. Do you know How Americans Achieve Complete Air Domination.


----------



## joey

Adux said:


> Heck the F/A 22 is only 166 million,Now I can say for sure that *you dont have much grasp on the issue*. The Aussie planes cost them 72 million FYI



umm no I'm talking about with package, mig 35 with package costs around 40mn$ or so, munitions etc indias customization..

see i stand by my point, If you can disapprove my point your welcome, The amount of customization IAF NEEDS FOR IT is not F18 is going to offer.

Will they integrate our datalinks?
let us have their AESA source codes for integrating Astra? 

feasibility feasibility again feasibility dude!

the datalink programme is by BEL and TCS to link all aircrafts in a network..

This is not cat ouse game, ok i need B2 bomber but yeah Us will give you it will be on your base with them guarding it and operating it, is it how you want things?


----------



## joey

Adux said:


> See, we came up first with just replacing numbers, therefore the whole single engine thingie,
> Then we wanted a fighter to suit our Doctrine, thus the twin engined, Strike platform concept



FLAWED concept, it is "Swing Role". not strike platform.




> Europe and Israel uses American Munitions. Do you even understand the value of JSOM, JDAM, HARM missiles in terms of First Strike Capability.


ARM missiles can be fulfilled by Meteor.

Yes we dont have JDAM, but are you sure US has offered us JDAM?
We can always manufacture a JDAM with Russia, all you need is proper GPS system...


dude honey is not what matters MOST but the GLASS IN WHICH IT COMES.understand the feasibility/geopolitics first.

I'm for Mig 35 and Rafale/Typhoon.


----------



## Adux

MIG 35 with Package cost $40 million. Source please.
You can expect a clean MIG 35 costs that much or more, Munitions and Packages and others will costs etc, I am guessing here, cuz nobody knows the true amount. 

You just divided the whole cost of the aussie deal by the number of aircrafts..lol


----------



## joey

^^ What I have read into Aussie deal, it doesnt contains munitions as they already have those.

Can you show me details on 4 engine deal with it?

Also let me telly ou oen thing logistics A ABSOLUTE FKIN NIGHTMARE If we are to go into D level of TOT (are americans ready to give that in first case?), as per the MRCA ACQUIOSITON policy.

Let me put it in simple again, We have used technologies form other planes for our learning and applied them in ours, somehow i never ever see americans letting us install our datalinks and letting us have free will of installing wepoans of our choice.

You simply cannot beat Russians in TOT, and Europe is there to whatever electronic and israel to compensate, which is what we need for our industry in the long run.

Again I'll be happy with 7bn deal + 2 on MCA rather than 9bn and babus sayisng no money on MCA, funds have squeezed us 70% of what we could have done by now.


----------



## Adux

joey said:


> FLAWED concept, it is "Swing Role". not strike platform.
> 
> 
> 
> ARM missiles can be fulfilled by Meteor.
> 
> Yes we dont have JDAM, but are you sure US has offered us JDAM?
> We can always manufacture a JDAM with Russia, all you need is proper GPS system...
> 
> 
> dude honey is not what matters MOST but the GLASS IN WHICH IT COMES.understand the feasibility/geopolitics first.
> 
> I'm for Mig 35 and Rafale/Typhoon.



I am off, You can be for whatever you want.

So F/A -18 is only a strike platform, lol.... 
Americans have offered us compelte Package except for TOT on the AESA.
You are talking more wishful thinking, We will do that, and we will do this.

MoD is not going to take my advice , maybe they will do with yours..I dont know.
You dont understand what kind of airforce we are trying to build, you dont understand for Cold Start Doctrine, How the Army wishes the Airforce to support them. IT is all about Pre-emptive Strike. 
WE have one of the best air-superiority Multi-role platforms in the Su-30MKI. We have to enhance the capbility that we are lacking. Its not all about fighting other Fighter jets.


----------



## Adux

Please give me a source for the MIG 35 price, 

The Aussie Deal is extensively discussed in Keypub, please check the thread.
You are taking it wrong, as if i am against the russians, No I am not, I am compeletly with More Akula 2's and Talwars. I say...lol
But for the capability we are looking, Russians dont have the best in the market.


----------



## Adux

And I dont know about the MCA, so I cant comment.


----------



## joey

I have read it sometime on BR.. dont remember now, Russian sources.

Since we differ in what kind of capability and practically "how" we need it, let the IAF HQ decide, whatever will be I'm sure they wont decide without the benefits of the same.


----------



## Keysersoze

It's interesting you mention the MCA Will they still go ahead with now that there is the whole 5th gen project with the Russians.


----------



## joey

this is for Adux, if domextic version costs this much exports will cost anything less or more? what logic says?





> Note that their approach to "Program Cost per Unit" (PCU) used in their chart is to divide the total cost of each program, as stated in the Pentagon's latest Selected Acquisition Reports, by the number of units to be produced. This means that each PCU includes research and development costs, and even some support costs. Actual acquisition prices tend to be lower, and PCU can be moved significantly up or down if the number of aircraft bought rises or falls. Small-numbers programs are particularly vulnerable to this effect, and will also show up as especially expensive because very few aircraft absorb the entire R&D cost.
> Note that all production numbers represent US purchases only.


----------



## Adux

Joey,

I am not looking at 93 million. It is irrelevent.Cuz we wont have to pay for their R&D. As by now they would have breakeven. Therefore the R&D costs on our planes will be considerably less. India doesnt have to pay for Line Drawing of F/A-18. Hope you get my drift. Look at Actual cost/unit. 


$46 million....That is even lesser than I expected on a domestic run, That should be a old calculation. It should cost even more now, From what I have heard 50 mill. 
Anyways I expect the Indian offer to be around 75 mill/plane including the araments. I have no links to give you just a hunch. I hope you know Su-30MKI costs us 55 million without armaments in India. And we are not paying Su-30MKi any exborhiant amount for developing the SU-30.

Joey if you want to argue about E/F. Talk about AESA. They wont give us a ToT. That is your trump card.
I am not looking at costs anyways, I am looking at the capability of attacking first, pre-emptive strike/air control, With a second wave of Su-30MKI's for total air domination.

Ps: we are buying 126 to 200. Thats a lot of planes, You can expect the price to come down considerably with the 30% offset rule as well as the Indian Manufacturing.


----------



## BATMAN

Adux said:


> Ps: we are buying 126 to 200.


Would it be a single purchase or splited in multiple orders, over a period of time?


----------



## Contrarian

No one knows.


----------



## ahussains

I see the pic they are superb i also love these russians planes like MiG and Specially the SU35 Terminator .. what are the technical ability of MIG -35 and i think this the end of its design life after this ...


----------



## BATMAN

malaymishra123 said:


> No one knows.


Not only I agree with you rather I have already mentioned in earlier posts that this 126 MRCA purchase theory is nothing but a fuss of Indian government and seems more of a carrot approach to drive the foreign policies of western countries against Pakistan, so far it produced mixed results.
I personaly believe that raising the numbers (200) will not help much to change world's perception about this MRCA theory of being no more than a fuss.


----------



## BATMAN

ahussains said:


> I see the pic they are superb i also love these russians planes like MiG and Specially the SU35 Terminator .. what are the technical ability of MIG -35 and i think this the end of its design life after this ...



I think so far, this thread has been very informative in a way that almost all of the modern air crafts had been discussed in details and this thread can be used as a guideline for any country to buy 4th generation advance aircraft.  
I know mig-35 pictures are very fascinating and give you the feeling that it is the end of the world.  
Today, It is indeed one of the best available off the shelf.
You may start a new thread for 'Terminator' it is beyond MRCA.


----------



## Contrarian

Dude...we already got the Su-30MKI, why do we need Su-35? 
When by and large its similar to Su-30, and Su-35 has used Su-30MKI as its model on which to build upon. 

Apart from that, when the new engines and avionics and missiles, come for the 5th gen plane, they would be able to retrofit them on the Su-30 MKI's.


----------



## BATMAN

malaymishra123 said:


> Dude...we already got the Su-30MKI, why do we need Su-35?



Cheif dude.... who say so, not even you!



malaymishra123 said:


> When by and large its similar to Su-30, and Su-35 has used Su-30MKI as its model on which to build upon.



SU-30*MKI*, why not LCA it is more Indian (??%).



malaymishra123 said:


> Apart from that, when the new engines and avionics and missiles, come for the 5th gen plane, they would be able to retrofit them on the Su-30 MKI's.


What you are saying is that IAF is planning to retrofit avionics of SU-30MKI same as of SU-35 (5th gen!!).
Really, than why IAF didn't accepted Russian avionics in SU-30 on the first place.
Only difference between SU-30 and SU-30MKI is western avionics in later case.
Question: For what specific reason IAF would revert back to Russian avionics ?


----------



## BATMAN

I read some where comments of IAF cheif :



> "Tyagi, (air chief marshal SP Tyagi) who watched a demonstration flight of the Mig-35 (Mig-29OVT) fighter at a Russian air force base near Moscow, said the demonstration was brilliant, but said, "The IAF is looking for an aircraft to win wars and not for impressive demonstrations.
> 
> "Any aircraft is nothing but a khokha (shell), but what matters is what is inside it," the Air Chief Marshal underscored.


Bit cruel to Mig-35 in particular and Russian technology in general. Never mind, he may not need them any more. But I wonder if he was reffering to pilots, engine or weapons?


----------



## BATMAN

The IAF's MRCA contract: Fades into the blue&#8230;
Rajiv Singh 

New Delhi: The Indian Air Force's (IAF) medium range multi-role combat aircraft (MRCA) contract once again threatened to fade away into the blue skies, like a rapidly disappearing fighter jet, when the newly anointed chief of the Indian Air Force, Air Chief Marshal Fali Homi Major, confessed "even I didn't know when it will be issued." ACM Major's comment was made to media personnel as part of his first interaction with the national media after taking over as chief. 

The air force chief's confession should not come as too much of a surprise, however, as Major's predecessor, Air Chief Marshal (retd) SP Tyagi, was forced to confess on his last day in office that he too was "not aware" when the order would come through. This, after Tyagi spent the better part of his career stating that he was 'hopeful' that the tender would be issued "soon." 
ACM Major's comment would be particularly galling for the air force as the country's defence minister, AK Antony, had created quite a flutter in February at the high-profile Aero India 2007 show at Bangalore by stating that the request for proposal (RFP) for the aircraft would be issued, latest by March 31. 

Antony's declaration was followed by reports in the media that portrayed ministry of defence personnel as working overtime, trying to meet the deadline set by him. However, summer holidays have apparently begun a bit early in New Delhi for these personnel as no RFP is in the offing or maybe the heat being generated by the contract has become a bit too hot for them to handle, as the ACM's confession would now appear to show.
For the record, it would be correct to quote ACM Fali H Major on the matter: "Even I don't know when it (RFP) will be issued. As and when all the (concerned) issues are resolved, it will be issued." ACM Major, also *took care to stress* that the delay in acquiring the 126 combat jets would not have a "negative" impact on the force.

"There are many elements that have to be factored in (after a new defence procurement policy was pronounced last year). Therefore, it is taking time," Air Chief Marshal Fali Major maintained during his first media interaction after assuming office on March 31. 

"Does this have a negative impact? I don't think so. This is because it's already been factored (into the IAF's perspective plans)," added Major. 

"Any credible air force has to learn to fight with what it has," said Major. 

Defence? Let's have a scandal instead&#8230;
Indeed, it does. Brave words from the force's chief, but unfortunately the comment leaves the brave boys in blue neither here nor quite there. *The country's friendly neighbourhood air force's, that of China and Pakistan, are already inducting the latest 4+ generation fighter aircraft. The jointly developed JF-17 Thunder has already begun entering service with the Pakistani and Chinese air forces. *
In Pakistan's case matters go further with the *Bush administration clearing the sale of the Block 50/52 F-16 *Fighting Falcon's. The point behind the sale of these F-16's is not the aircraft itself but the avionic upgrades and the latest munitions that they come along with. *These supplies effectively fritter away whatever technological advantage the IAF had built up over the last few years*. Even as it loses its advantage the IAF now has to sit back and watch as the civilian 'decision making' process meanders its way through 'strategic imperatives' that essentially tries to be all things to all people. 

The point is not to demean the 'imperatives' that govern policy making in a complicated international environment. But some pompous policy making individual, politician or bureaucrat, will have to stand up and explain what are the 'imperatives' that have been delaying the decision on an issue that has been pending for six years at the very least, have cost the lives of scores of pilots, young and experienced and has caused hundreds of crore of rupees in losses to the national exchequer.

More than all of this has the country's defence preparedness paid a price - or miraculously has that remained unaffected all this while. May be the whole point is to make ad-hoc purchases and tide over a crisis. 

The purchase orders for an additional lot of 40 Su-30MKIs will help the air force breathe easy in spite of the delay over the RFP - and may be that is what ACM Major is referring to when he says that the delay is 'factored in' and that there would be no negative impact. 

Maybe that is what the latest round of controversies are also all about - the one about the latest purchases of Su-30MKIs not meeting 'offset' clause requirements. And the even more strange one of Russia refusing to sign the 'integrity pact' for defence purchases. Speculation, suspicion and scandal - necessary ingredients to any defence contract in this country. 

'Policy imperatives,' pompous policy makers and 'defence scandals' lurking round the corner - that is what needs to be factored in when you are talking about Indian defence. Yes, Air Chief Marshal Fali Homi Major is right when he says, "Any credible air force has to learn to fight with what it has." That is what Indian defence forces have been doing their entire career. 

*May be it is time to introduce some 'People's democracy' a la China*, which has been sailing along into super power glory with the highest military expenditures in the world over the last two decades, *or some military 'democracy' a la Pakistan*, whose entire 'national' life is geared to feeding the military establishment.
http://www.domain-b.com/aero/20070409_indian_air_force.htm


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## Adux

Fourth Gen JF-17, I agree that Pakistan and China are modernizing....but..authour is a funny no doubt.

but the MMRCA is taking a horrendous amount of time.


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## EagleEyes

I have an idea. Why doesn't India acquire JF-17 instead of LCA? Cheaper, better, stronger. In the end it all comes down to if they will allow it.

War aint happening.. why not make a profit!


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## BATMAN

Adux said:


> Fourth Gen JF-17, I agree that *Pakistan and China are modernizing*



Thank you for being very modest on Pakistan's behalf but the fact is Pakistan and China are LEADING, way far. :flag: 



Adux said:


> ...but...*authour is a funny *no doubt.



What!!!! You find it funny... you need some sleep, come tomorrow and read again. 



Adux said:


> but the MMRCA is taking a horrendous amount of time.


I told this before but than you ridiculed me.
I hope, from now on you will be bit more respectful to what I wrote. 
Now, due the induction of JF-17 in PAF. LCA is the focal point in India, there will be no MMRCA till LCA see any light.

Perhaps we should be considering to appologising the members who wasted there energies on fake idea.


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## Adux

> Thank you for being very modest on Pakistan's behalf but the fact is Pakistan and China are LEADING, way far. :flag:



Actually, NO; China in some areas, Pakistan you are trailing, but still best of luck.


> I told this before but than you ridiculed me.
> I hope, from now on you will be bit more respectful to what I wrote.
> Now, due the induction of JF-17 in PAF. LCA is the focal point in India, there will be no MMRCA till LCA see any light.
> 
> Perhaps we should be considering to appologising the members who wasted there energies on fake idea



JF-17 into Pakistan, are you serious. That is only there to make up numbers, I consider the F-16 Block 52++ with its conformal tank, RCS reduction, a wonderful Radar and missile (Aim120C), as Pakistan's trump card, not that Jf-17. You want me cut you some slack; dont come to me with chinese junk. i have zero respect.
MMRCA, i dont think I said anything else other than "Even god doesnt believe that he knows about Indian Procurement Policies". MMRCA and LCA are not related, I dont have the time to explain it to you also. MMRCA is for the strike componenet of the IAF, LCA is a point defence fighter. There are only 4 JF-17 till now while you 6 LCA's flying and 4 more coming by the end of the year. 2010 IAF is slated to take the delivery of 28LCA's. Thankyou.


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## EagleEyes

Before making ridiculous comments. Learn about JF-17 first.


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## BATMAN

Adux said:


> Actually, NO; China in some areas, Pakistan you are trailing, but still best of luck.



Thank you again, We'll make sure, not to disappoint you.




Adux said:


> JF-17 into Pakistan, are you serious. That is only there to make up numbers,



Yes It's serious, and I heard PAF intend to raise those numbers to 250-300.



Adux said:


> I consider the F-16 Block 52++ with its conformal tank, RCS reduction, a wonderful Radar and missile (Aim120C), as come to me with *chinese junk. i have zero respect.*



For you every thing that is made out side India is junk. e.g. Russinas are junk, why would any one else have exception.



Adux said:


> MMRCA, i dont think I said anything else other than "Even god doesnt believe that he knows about Indian Procurement Policies". MMRCA and LCA are not related, I dont have the time to explain it to you also. MMRCA is for the strike componenet of the IAF, LCA is a point defence fighter.



I never said LCA and MMRCA will have same role in IAF and Thank God you finally accepted that all about MMRCA was illusion.
BTW, that was a hell of a circuis, Russians flying Mig-35 all the way to India, Japanese lured in to the Typhoon negotiations, rejecting American offers, discussing shares purchase with BAe and so on and on...



Adux said:


> There are only 4 JF-17 till now while you 6 LCA's flying and 4 more coming by the end of the year. 2010 IAF is slated to take the delivery of 28LCA's. Thankyou.



If we believe you that HAL had already started serial production and IAF will have 4+6 (10) LCA by 2007 end than 18 more will be build and delivered to IAF by 2010 that makes 6/year, by this formulae IAF had to wait 50 years to receive 300 LCA.
If nothing is wrong with my calculation.


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## Adux

*India to buy and manufacture F-16I? *

March 22, 2007 (by Sadananda) - India has been offered the advanced F-16I Sufa, according to Defence News. The F-16I is a version specifically designed and built for Israel. As part of the deal, 108 of the 126 aircraft would be manufactured in India. 


The F-16I 'Sufa' for the Israeli Air Force at the roll-out ceremony on November 14th, 2003, at LMTAS' Fort Worth facility. The F-16I features a dorsal spine, CFTs, and distributed RWR's, along with improved avionics.In a Tel Aviv-datelined dispatch, it said, "Fighter jets vying for India's $8 billion Medium-range Multirole Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) program may have to make room for a late entry: the Lockheed Martin F-16I "Sufa" (Storm). The Sufa has a significant amount of content manufactured by Israeli defense industries, designed in accordance with the technical specifications of the Israel Air Force (IAF). 

In an unprecedented move aimed at sharpening its edge over fellow US and international competitors, Lockheed Martin is eyeing the F-16I since mid last year as a low-cost, high-performance alternative to the French Rafale, the Swedish JAS 39 Gripen, the Eurofighter Typhoon, Boeing's F/A-18E/F and the Russian MiG-35."

The report, quoting US and Israeli sources, said that the precise configuration of the single-engine aircraft offered would depend on the operational and industrial requirements detailed in New Delhi's upcoming request for proposals (RfP). However, Lockheed's Fort Worth, Texas, Aeronautics unit has begun asking the US government for third-country export licences.

"We have submitted a request for licensing of an F-16 configuration that we think will match the Indian Air Force requirements, pending our receipt of the RfP," said Lockheed Martin spokesman Joe Stout. He declined to elaborate on specific technologies and subsystems that could be included in the company's bid. He said a team dedicated to the MMRCA programme has been working since the beginning of the year on a number of F-16 configurations that may prove more compatible with operational needs as well as New Delhi's requirements for offsets and industrial cooperation. Other options could include a variant of the F-16 block 60, which carries advanced US avionics and the Northrop Grumman APG-80 active electronically scanned radar, or on the Block 50/52 versions flown by the US Air Force and now being produced for several air forces.

Defence News, an online military and defence news portal, said if Lockheed offered the F-16I to India, it would be the first time an extensively modified US fighter containing non-US-made avionics, weaponry and major sub-systems had been offered at the front end of an international competition. Lockheed has sold to Chile and Singapore F-16s that contained significant Israeli content, but those items were demanded by the customers from the start. "To the best of my knowledge, the idea of pitching a US fighter with significant, technologically advanced third-party content hasn't been done before," said Richard Aboulafia, vice president for analysis at the Teal Group, a Fairfax, Va.-based aerospace and defense consulting firm. "If this is the case, and the US government allows Lockheed to offer a clone of the Israel Air Force plane, it's another indication of the unprecedented military and diplomatic initiatives being taken to promote a US win in this strategically important programme."

The new MMRCAs are expected to complement New Delhi's high-end fleet of Su-30MKIs and the lower-end, locally developed Tejas Light Combat Aircraft. Initial requests for information called for 18 aircraft to be delivered directly from the prime contractor, with 108 to be produced under license in India. Since then, however, the Indian Air Force has been lobbying to expand the buy to more than 200 planes, as a hedge against additional delays of the Tejas. Indian Air Force sources said MMRCA orders could be split among two countries. According to these sources, a decision to award more than one contract would speed deliveries to the Air Force while doubling the political benefits to be accrued through tandem cooperative programmes


http://www.f-16.net/news_article2240.html


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## BATMAN

^^ Does Indians have any choice.


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## ahussains

Are Indians making the correct decision by Taking F-16I and frogeting the Russians ..?


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## Keysersoze

ahussains said:


> Are Indians making the correct decision by Taking F-16I and frogeting the Russians ..?



They have not yet awarded the contract.... the F-16I is very similar to the BLk-52 so I doubt they will go for it.


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## Adux

*Boeing Dual-Cockpit Cueing System Introduced to U.S. Navy Squadron*

ST. LOUIS, May 18, 2007 -- The first Boeing [NYSE: BA] F/A-18F Super Hornet retrofitted with an aft cockpit Joint Helmet-Mounted Cueing System (JHMCS) has arrived at Strike Fighter Squadron 213 (VFA-213), the first U.S. Navy fleet squadron to fly the aircraft with the dual-cockpit system. 

The "Blacklions" of VFA-213, based at Naval Air Station Oceana, Va., will use the cueing system to significantly enhance in-flight crew coordination. 

The JHMCS gives flight crew members the ability to rapidly acquire and designate a target simply by looking at it. The two-seat version of the system places a JHMCS helmet on both crew members, giving each the capability to aim weapons and sensors as well as a visual indication of where each crew member is looking. 

"The Navy received its first JHMCS production systems five years ago and continues to be a strong supporter of this capability," said Phil King, Boeing JHMCS program manager. "Warfighters praise JHMCS for its enhanced situational awareness and mission effectiveness." 

The Navy awarded Boeing a $4.4 million contract in November 2005 to provide aft cockpit helmets in F/A-18F and EA-18G aircraft scheduled for delivery beginning this October. Thirty-four U.S. Air Force and Navy squadrons worldwide currently use the JHMCS. 

Warfighters used JHMCS operationally for the first time during Operation Iraqi Freedom. By placing an aiming cross, projected on the helmet visor, over the desired target and pressing a button, pilots can quickly and easily aim weapons and sensors to designate and attack airborne or ground targets. JHMCS also displays aircraft altitude, airspeed, attitude and tactical information on the visor to increase situational awareness.


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## BATMAN

^I see no relevance to MRCA. Have you gone


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## Neo

He'll be back in 5 days.


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## BATMAN

I hope not. Honestly, I just read it. I assumed it is a dead thread.


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## Adux

> IAF to float global tender for combat jets very soon`
> 
> Ghaziabad,June 16: The Indian Air Force (IAF) will "very soon" float a long-delayed global tender for 126 multi-role combat jets in a deal estimated to be valued at around $9 billion (Rs 370 billion).
> 
> "It will go out very soon. The outer limit is two to three months," Defence Minister AK Antony said on the sidelines of a function in this suburban town where he opened a new research laboratory established by state-owned Bharat Electronics.
> 
> While Antony did not specify the reasons for the delay, an official said "certain procedural issues" needed to be resolved before a request for proposal (RFP) is issued for the aircraft.
> 
> The "issues" relate to areas like calculating life-cycle costs, the manner in which the offsets policy governing defence purchases will be implemented, and transfer of technology (TOT).
> 
> Under the offsets policy laid down in the Defence Procurement Procedure-2006 (DPP-2006), 30 percent of all military deals worth more than Rs.3 billion has to be reinvested in India.
> 
> Calculating life-cycle costs is another challenge for India's defence planners since this aspect had never been factored in while concluding military hardware deals in the past. Seventy percent of the equipment in the armed forces' inventory is of Soviet or Russian origin.
> 
> As for TOT, India has not insisted on technology transfers in the past, but this has now been made mandatory.
> 
> The IAF desperately needs new aircraft to ramp up its depleting fleet of Soviet-era MiG-21, MiG-23 and MiG-27 aircraft. The MiG-21 has undergone a mid-life upgrade to increase its service life. The MiG-23 has already been retired, while the MiG-27 is being gradually phased out.
> 
> This apart, the indigenously developed Tejas light combat aircraft (LCA) that was to replace these jets has suffered huge cost and time overruns and is now unlikely to be inducted before 2012.
> 
> Thus, there are also indications that the defence ministry could fast track the process by issuing a RFQ (request for quotation) instead of a RFP. "This will enable us quicken the process but a view on this is yet to be taken," the official stated.
> 
> However, regardless of whether a RFP or a RFQ is floated, it could be at least five years before price negotiations with the selected manufacturer or manufacturers is concluded and another five years before the first of the new aircraft start arriving, the official added.
> 
> By that time, the IAF force levels would have further plummeted from their current all-time low of 30 squadrons and thus, the actual requirement could be for some 200 aircraft, a defence analyst pointed out.
> 
> The IAF was operating 39 1/2 squadrons against a sanctioned strength of 45 when a request for information (RFI) was sent out in 2001.
> 
> The race for the IAF order is believed to have narrowed down to five aircraft: the US F-16 and F/A-18 Super Hornet, the Swedish JAS-39 Grippen, the French Rafale, and the Russian Mig-29OVT.
> 
> The RFI had been sent out to the manufacturers of the F-16, the Gripen, the MiG-29, and the French Mirage-2000-5. In addition, the manufacturers of the F/A-18, the Rafale, and the four-nation European Typhoon also sent in their offers.
> 
> Russian President Vladimir Putin, during his visit here in January, had plugged for the MiG-35, essentially a re-engineered version of the MiG-29.
> 
> Officials are tight-lipped about the selection process beyond saying the race seems to have narrowed down to five aircraft.
> 
> Bureau Report



Yawn!!!!!

Friggin babu's


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## Neo

Didn't France pull out the Rafale from the competition?


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## Contrarian

What? When did that happen?


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## Neo

It was reported in some other forum, don't have the official report to support it.


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## Contrarian

which forum exactly?


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## Neo

Doesn't matter, I couldn't find anything on google so the claim is probably false.


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## Contrarian

I think its Typhoon/Shornet thats been left out. Still, it remains to be seen.


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## Adux

Malay,

They are talking on the basis of the last official release by the MoD which is Mirage 2005 Gripen etc.

Now,

I believe Shornet, Rafale, Gripen, Typhoon and MiG-35

Of which I believe Gripen, F-16 will be dropped. There is a good chance of MiG-35 being dropped with recent excess in arm procurement deals, as well not be over-dependent on Russia.


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## Adux

> *Defence Acquisition Committee To Issue RFP For Air Force MRCA Deal Within 15 Days*
> Dated 18/6/2007
> Printer Friendly Subscribe
> The Defence Acquisition Committee (DAC) will meet in a fortnight to decide on the Request for Proposal (RFP) for the acquisition of 126 jet fighters by the Indian Air Force, Defence Minister A K Antony said today.
> 
> "The DAC will be meeting within a fortnight and decide on the RFP. All negotiations are over and now it is a question of formalities," he told reporters when asked about the delay in issuing the RFP document for the multi-million dollar acquisition programme.
> 
> He said the RFP was likely to be issued within "one or two months". Earlier too, Antony has maintained that the RFP would be issued within two months.
> 
> Asked whether the Defence Ministry was "worried" about the acquisition of airpower by the LTTE, he said "we are watching that. We are not worried, but are concerned. A terrorist organisation gaining this kind of capability is a matter of concern".
> 
> On Sri Lanka, he said India had the "most cordial relations with the country. We are committed to its sovereignty, unity and integrity".
> 
> To Colombo's request for the supply of radars and other equipment to help them in their fight against LTTE, he said "We will support them in whatever help they need". He also pointed out that the ultimate solution to the ethnic problem was not military but a political solution.
> 
> Asked why the budgetary resources of the Ministry remained unspent in the last fiscal, Antony said the Defence Procurement Policy was approved in September 2006, bringing in new procedures and rules. "There was a certain delay, but we will fulfil the targets this year," he asserted.


http://www.india-defence.com/reports-3324


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## Adux

*India Completes Talks on Huge Fighter Deal: Official *

By AGENCE FRANCE-PRESSE, NEW DELHI 


India has completed negotiations over an order for 126 fighter jets that could cost up to nine billion dollars, Defense Minister A.K. Antony said June 18.
But the minister did not say which of the Russian, U.S. and European rivals were best placed to win what arms industry sources have described as the biggest fighter plane contract in 15 years.
According to industry sources, the leading contenders are the Russian-built MiG-35 and MiG-29, Lockheed Martins F-16 and Boeings F-18.
Also in the race to replace Indias aged fleet of MiG-21s are Eurofighters Typhoon, Saabs Gripen and Dassaults Rafale.
All negotiations are over and now it is a question of formalities, Antony told reporters on the sidelines of a commanders meeting in the Indian capital.
The defense acquisition committee will be meeting within a fortnight and decide on the Request for Proposals (RFP), the minister added, referring to the body that has the final say on who should get the contract.
Senior defense ministry officials also confirmed the comments, saying that no further discussions are necessary in the deal.
We are now hopeful the contract will be offered within a months time or so, one of the officials told AFP.
The deal will be the first time India, now the biggest arms purchaser among emerging nations, has bought combat aircraft after evaluating rival bids through a global tender.
The country was once a captive defense-equipment market for the former Soviet Union and later Russia  which provided 70 percent of Indias military hardware  but is now seen as trying to broaden its military suppliers.
The two U.S. contenders, Lockheed Martin and Boeing, are trying to latch on to warming relations between New Delhi and Washington, who were once on opposite sides of the Cold War divide.
The two countries signed a landmark deal in 2005 that will allow India access to U.S. civil nuclear technology, barred since the country exploded its first nuclear bomb in 1974. 
http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F=2842000&C=asiapac


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## joey

I say the best option is get 100 Rafales and increase ther MKI from 40 order to 80!! that would be best


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## Adux

Since we are into dreaming, Here is mine 

120 SuperHornets for the airforce, 80 Rafale's for the Navy along with
270 Su-30MKI for the airforce, 60 MiG-29K's for the Navy.
Along 3 Squadrons of Air-Air Refuelers and 4 Sqaudrons of AWACS and AEW.

Phew!!!!


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## Contrarian

You forgot transportations squadrons!!


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## Adux

Add that too with troop carriers; about time we para dropped the million brave souls...took the fight to the enemy, safety of the homeland

Umph!!! i love my speech

The MTA's, IL 76's and Chinooks should be able to handle it

200 LCA's
100 PAK-FA


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## Adux

my above calc 690 combat aircraft for the Airforce and 140 for the Navy
The Ideal Indian airforce should have 1000 Aircrafts for combat and 300 for the Navy

Which we would be able to afford in lets say a decade's time


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## joey

Hornet sucks.


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## Neo

Adux said:


> Since we are into dreaming, Here is mine
> 
> 120 SuperHornets for the airforce, 80 Rafale's for the Navy along with
> 270 Su-30MKI for the airforce, 60 MiG-29K's for the Navy.
> Along 3 Squadrons of Air-Air Refuelers and 4 Sqaudrons of AWACS and AEW.
> 
> Phew!!!!



Trrriiiiinnnnngggg...Wake up!  
Imho thats way too many different (fighter) platforms.


----------



## Shabaz Sharif

Well 126 Eurofighter's or Rafales will not come with just $9 billion, unless of course India double the amount to $18 billion.


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## Adux

joey said:


> Hornet sucks.



I beg to differ there,
Hornet sucks maybe,
Super Hornets.Noway...lol


----------



## Bull

200 LCA
230 MKI
126 Mig 35
35 Mig 29k ( IN)


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## joey

290 MKI MK4 MLU
110 Rafales
200 LCA

For Navy,

20~40 Mig 29K
20~40 N-LCA

Maritime strike MKI's.


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## Adux

Joey that makes only 600 combat aircraft, 20 planes per squadron; 30 squadrons, 
for it make sanctioned 45 for the airforce, we need more, 900 to be precise
Dream away gents

Navy needs 300 fighters in my opinion., Global reach kids


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## joey

Add to that 60 Mirage upgraded and 60 upgraded Mig 29's, add to that the bombers Jaguar Darin II and Mig 27's.

Add to that Mig 21's , 200 of which will be in service till 2018 or so.

PAKFA and MCA will replace in numbers the whole batch of mig 29/mirage 2000


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## joey

Navy first needs to carry 300 fighters before it can buy it, lets have ADS 2 with 1lakh tonne capability, surely I'd love yo see a mix of 40 JSF with 40 MCA in ADS-2, boy o boy.


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## Adux

I am not talking about complete carrier component. Let it be land based fighters too trained in sea warfare.

by 2020, Three ADS(dont me ask how, I know) and Vikramaditya....

20 in Vikramaditya
30 in ADS-1
30 in ADS-2
60 in ADS-3

That would make 140, plus 160 land based. 

AHHHH!!!!! the life .....


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## Adux

300 Aircraft in the Navy
1200 Aircrafts in the Airforce


----------



## Keysersoze

How will IAF acquire its multi-role jets?

NEW DELHI: The Indian defence ministry has dropped the life-cycle cost calculation for its coming tender for the 126 new Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MRCA) as there will be too many "imponderables" over the rather long life of these jets extending up to around 2050.
According to a report in the coming issue of India Strategic defence magazine, an advance copy of which has been made available to the media, a new Verifiable Cost Model (VCM) has been adopted, according to which the new aircraft should last either over a period of 40 years or an actual flying time of 6,000 hours, "whichever is earlier".

The tender, technically called the Request for Proposals (RfP), should be out within this month or latest by mid-August according to current indications. Broadly, the following VCM parameters will be considered:

Direct Acquisition Cost or Initial Cost including that of weapons and spares; Warranty for the first two years; Licence Royalty for manufacture in India; Cost of Transfer of Technology; Cost of Initial Training; and Operating costs like consumption of fuel and lubricants.

While the Indian Air Force (IAF) has specified the multi role capability for the new jets, the India Strategic report said that the government would insist on Guaranteed Serviceability and Adequate Supply of Spares throughout the lifetime of the aircraft before finalizing the negotiations with the vendors.

This means that if a supplier wants to close down its assembly line, then it has to give this information well in advance and ensure that alternative arrangements are made, preferably within India.

Cost-escalation will be there and accepted but it will be based on "pre-established and well accepted indices for the duration of the contract", India Strategic quoted unnamed sources as saying.

Inflation is part of the economy but there will be a cap in the final agreement, irrespective of unforeseen circumstances like political upheavals or sudden closure of a manufacturing facility.

India Strategic said that the finance ministry has cleared a budget of nearly $10 billion (Rs.42,000 crores) and the RfP should be out within this month "but not later than mid-August".

As the project is huge, 50 percent direct offset has been mandated, preferably in the aircraft project itself. But according to Defence Secretary Shekhar Dutt, it could go to other defence projects "if India requires them".

It may be noted that Dutt is the author of the Offsets policy that he had first mooted in 1994.

The government has accepted the IAF's insistence that the aircraft should be the best available with potential upgrade capability.

While the technical requirements called the Air Staff Requirements (ASR) as laid down by a panel headed by the Vice Chief of Air Staff (VCAS) are secret and will be given only to the six foreign companies in the fray, IAF says the new aircraft should be able to execute missions from air defence to ground and maritime attack as well as reconnaissance.

Mid-air refueling capacity is a must for all new aircraft from now on.

The six vendors will be given six months to respond to the RfP, and after an evaluation of the technical documents, field trials of aircraft and their systems will be undertaken to match the claims of the manufacturer.

These will be followed by weapon tests in the country of respective manufacturer. The vendors will submit two documents -- Technical Bids and Commercial Bids.

Commercial offers of only those who qualify technically will be opened and contract negotiations will be conducted with the lowest, or what is known as L-1, bidder.

After this is finalized, the defence ministry and IAF officials processing the contract will put up the contract for approval to the defence minister who will send it to the Cabinet Committee of Security (CCS) for final approval, and the tender would be awarded to the winner.

The defence ministry expects the first batch of 18 aircraft, which will be supplied in flyway condition, to be with IAF by 2012, thanks to the speedy and time-bound process envisaged in the recent Defence Procurement Policy (DPP) 2006.

The aircraft manufacturers will be free to choose public sector or private partners but as only the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) has an established aircraft manufacturing facility in India, it will be the lead integrator. 

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...e_its_multi-role_jets/articleshow/2206326.cms


----------



## Adux

PICTURE: US Navy Super Hornet deal could cut JSF numbers 
By Stephen Trimble



The US Navy (USN) is in "low-level discussions" with Boeing on a plan to link F/A-18E/F Super Hornet production to the start-up of full-rate production for the carrier-variant Lockheed Martin F-35C Joint Strike Fighter.

The ongoing talks could add several years and at least scores of aircraft to the F/A-18E/F production programme, perhaps at the expense of the USN's current plan to buy 600 F-35Cs.


&#169; US Navy
The Super Hornet programme had been cut from about 1,000 fighters to the current plan to buy 550 aircraft 


Naval aviation officials are seeking to reclaim hundreds of F/A-18E/Fs cut from the programme after JSF was launched in the late 1990s. Since then, the Super Hornet programme has been cut from about 1,000 aircraft to the current plan to buy 460 of the fighters, plus about 90 EA-18G Growler electronic-attack aircraft.

The USN now wants to reclaim as many of those lost aircraft as possible, says F/A-18 programme manager Capt Don Gaddis.

Naval leaders say they face a shortfall of as many as 200 fighters in the inventory up to 2030. Last month, Boeing disclosed it has made an unsolicited offer to sell a further 170 Super Hornets for about *$49 million *each. 

Gaddis says he has agreed to discuss terms for buying 152 aircraft, an amount thought of as a random starting point for obtaining pricing information.

The number includes about 90 aircraft already scheduled to be purchased in fiscal years 2010 and 2011, plus about 60 new orders to be wrapped into a third multi-year procurement (MYP) deal for the F/A-18E/F, he says.

When both parties can agree on a price on options for ordering quantities, Gaddis will submit his recommendations through the navy's budget review process for the FY2010 budget cycle. The goal is to secure a third MYP deal, with savings generated by the long-term order to be invested in orders for additional aircraft.

The length of the proposed MYP to start in FY2010 has not been determined, but it could run at least through FY2014, with the last delivery to the USN coming two years later. Currently, that timeline overlaps the full-rate production schedule for the F-35C, which launches in FY2015.

Meanwhile, the foreign market for the F/A-18E/F may also expand Boeing's production line. Australia has signed the first international order for 24 Super Hornets, and the USN-Boeing sales team is competing in the next several years for potential contracts in India, Japan, Kuwait and Switzerland, as well as a potential follow-on order in Australia, Gaddis says.

http://www.flightglobal.com/article...-super-hornet-deal-could-cut-jsf-numbers.html


----------



## Keysersoze

Adux said:


> PICTURE: US Navy Super Hornet deal could cut JSF numbers
> By Stephen Trimble
> 
> 
> 
> The US Navy (USN) is in "low-level discussions" with Boeing on a plan to link F/A-18E/F Super Hornet production to the start-up of full-rate production for the carrier-variant Lockheed Martin F-35C Joint Strike Fighter.
> 
> The ongoing talks could add several years and at least scores of aircraft to the F/A-18E/F production programme, perhaps at the expense of the USN's current plan to buy 600 F-35Cs.
> 
> 
> © US Navy
> The Super Hornet programme had been cut from about 1,000 fighters to the current plan to buy 550 aircraft
> 
> 
> Naval aviation officials are seeking to reclaim hundreds of F/A-18E/Fs cut from the programme after JSF was launched in the late 1990s. Since then, the Super Hornet programme has been cut from about 1,000 aircraft to the current plan to buy 460 of the fighters, plus about 90 EA-18G Growler electronic-attack aircraft.
> 
> The USN now wants to reclaim as many of those lost aircraft as possible, says F/A-18 programme manager Capt Don Gaddis.
> 
> Naval leaders say they face a shortfall of as many as 200 fighters in the inventory up to 2030. Last month, Boeing disclosed it has made an unsolicited offer to sell a further 170 Super Hornets for about *$49 million *each.
> 
> Gaddis says he has agreed to discuss terms for buying 152 aircraft, an amount thought of as a random starting point for obtaining pricing information.
> 
> The number includes about 90 aircraft already scheduled to be purchased in fiscal years 2010 and 2011, plus about 60 new orders to be wrapped into a third multi-year procurement (MYP) deal for the F/A-18E/F, he says.
> 
> When both parties can agree on a price on options for ordering quantities, Gaddis will submit his recommendations through the navy's budget review process for the FY2010 budget cycle. The goal is to secure a third MYP deal, with savings generated by the long-term order to be invested in orders for additional aircraft.
> 
> The length of the proposed MYP to start in FY2010 has not been determined, but it could run at least through FY2014, with the last delivery to the USN coming two years later. Currently, that timeline overlaps the full-rate production schedule for the F-35C, which launches in FY2015.
> 
> Meanwhile, the foreign market for the F/A-18E/F may also expand Boeing's production line. Australia has signed the first international order for 24 Super Hornets, and the USN-Boeing sales team is competing in the next several years for potential contracts in India, Japan, Kuwait and Switzerland, as well as a potential follow-on order in Australia, Gaddis says.
> 
> http://www.flightglobal.com/article...-super-hornet-deal-could-cut-jsf-numbers.html



Dude you highlighted the $49 million for some reason. Thats the price that the USN would pay.
the Australians paid $3.1 billion for 24 aircraft with support etc (and they have the Hornet in service already)


----------



## Adux

India is not buying 24 Hornets rather 126, India is also a market americans are trying their best to enter, India also will have a factory here to make them lower labour, Australians had the Hornet not the Super Hornets, compleletly differnet bird. Therefore the extra investment on training, new aramament capability and service line

India will definitly get the Hornets at a very very attractive price than the Australians.


----------



## The Wisdom Tree

Adux said:


> India is not buying 24 Hornets rather 126, India is also a market americans are trying their best to enter, India also will have a factory here to make them lower labour, Australians had the Hornet not the Super Hornets, compleletly differnet bird. Therefore the extra investment on training, new aramament capability and service line
> 
> India will definitly get the Hornets at a very very attractive price than the Australians.



Followed the whole thread - have a question for you Adux :

Why would India need 126 fighters if it is for first strike role? Thats a lot of aircraft.

The reason this question arises is - if it is really only for just a first strike role - why shouldn't India go for the best that is out there? These missions must be the most critical parts of the game and with least margin of error - IMO

Should go for the Typhoon then, the best out there. 

And if cost is a problem, cut down 126 to something within reach - afterall that number seems lil too many for the role...


----------



## BATMAN

By the virtue of the news below it sounds a very good negotiation by Indians.
I wonder what's running through American heads!
Let's see when would IAF gets it's first delivery, without compromising all those extra perks.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/msid-2317231,prtpage-1.cms


> Indian Air Force floats tender for 126 fighter jets
> 28 Aug, 2007, 1616 hrs IST, IANS
> 
> NEW DELHI: The Indian Air Force (IAF) on Tuesday floated a global tender for 126 combat jets worth $10 billion in the country's biggest ever defence deal, but it could be six years before the first planes start arriving.
> 
> Eighteen of the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) will be purchased in flyaway condition and the remaining 108 manufactured in the country under a transfer of technology (TOT) agreement with the chosen supplier. The aircraft are envisaged to have a lifecycle of 40 years from the time of delivery.
> 
> The 211-page request for proposal (RFP) has been sent to the manufacturers of six aircraft: the US F-16 and F-18 Super Hornet, the Swedish Gripen, the French Rafale, the Russian MiG-35 and a European consortium's Eurofighter.
> 
> India's Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) had cleared the RFP at a meeting here June 29 chaired by Defence Minister AK Antony.
> 
> The six companies, which have been given six months to respond, will also be asked to sign a confidentiality clause against revealing the contents of the RFP to a third party.
> 
> *The RFP will also contain an offsets clause under which 50 percent of the money paid to the chosen vendor will have to be reinvested in India's defence manufacturing sector. *
> 
> The offsets clause that was introduced in the Defence Procurement Procedure-2006 (DPP-2006), mandates that 30 per cent of the cost of military purchases exceeding Rs.3 billion has to be reinvested in the country.
> 
> "The DAC had decided that the offsets in this case would be 50 percent," Defence Ministry spokesman Sitanshu Kar told reporters.
> 
> The IAF desperately needs new aircraft to replace its ageing fleet of Soviet-era MiG-21 fighters that make up 21 squadrons of its 30-squadron fleet of combat aircraft.
> 
> While the RFP relates to 126 aircraft, the number could go up by 70-80 to make up for the aircraft that will be phased out in the period before the new jets start arriving.
> 
> The RFP also contains a selection model that would involve an exhaustive evaluation process as detailed in the DPP-2006.
> 
> Explaining the process, Kar said a professional team would conduct a technical evaluation of the proposals received to check for compliance with the IAF's operational requirements and other RFP conditions.
> 
> Following this, extensive field trials would be carried out to evaluate the performance of the different aircraft. Finally, the commercial proposal of the vendors short-listed after technical and field evaluations would be examined and compared.
> 
> The defence ministry's Contract Negotiation Committee (CNC) would then hold discussions with the vendors before identifying the manufacturer who would be awarded the IAF order.
> 
> The CNC would submit its report to the defence minister, who would forward it to the finance minister. After the file returns to the defence ministry, it would go for final approval to the cabinet committee on security (CCS). This process would take some two-and-a-half years.
> 
> 
> 
> After the contract is signed with the chosen manufacturer, it would take another two-and-a-half years before the first aircraft arrives.
> 
> "Since the aircraft are likely to be in service for over 40 years, the vendors have to provide lifetime support and performance based warranty for them," Kar pointed out.
> 
> According to him, defence ministry officials "have confirmed that great care has been taken to ensure that only determinable factors that do not lend themselves to any subjectivity are included in the commercial selection model.
> 
> "It is expected that the technology transfer and offset clauses would provide a great technological and economic boost to the indigenous defence industries in the public sector," Kar stated.
> 
> The floating of the tender is the culmination of a process that began in 2001 when the IAF sent out its request for information (RFI) for 126 jets.
> 
> During this period, the IAF has witnessed an alarming dip in its fighter squadron levels from a sanctioned strength of 391/2 to 30.


----------



## Keysersoze

Complex RFP raises questions on timetable for Indian MRCA procurement
Questions hang over India's planned procurement of 126 multirole combat aircraft (MRCA) with one analyst predicting a six-month delay in the procurement and some Western bidders concerned they are being negatively affected by conditions in the recently issued request for proposals (RfP). Deba R Mohanty, a senior fellow in security studies at the New Delhi-based Observer Research Foundation - who reviewed a copy of the RfP shortly after it was issued to the six contenders - told Jane's in early October that the complexity of the RfP document is the main reason why the deadline is likely to be delayed a further six months until September 2008

[first posted to Jane's Defence Weekly - Your first line of defence - 10 October 2007]


----------



## su-47

delays, delays and more delays.

by the time those MRCA aircraft arrive they would have been delayed so much that it would be more logical to ship them off to the museum than to the airbases.


----------



## KENT

su-47 said:


> delays, delays and more delays.
> 
> by the time those MRCA aircraft arrive they would have been delayed so much that it would be more logical to ship them off to the museum than to the airbases.




Oh Man, How this MRCA will gonna get obsolete by the time when they arrive?


----------



## keith

I dont think there is much to worry about the technology of the MRCA. It will be upgraded just like the SU-30mki's. Only thing is India will end up shelling out more and more money every few years for new upgrades.


----------



## keith

Also by now I am sure everybody has heard about the T-50 PAK-FA russian project. India just agreed to pump in $5 billion into it..maybe even more. I am really impressed by whats going on with the Indian Air Force. 

40 T-50's ( Atleast 40 will be delivered by 2015 )
126 The new MRCA deal
230 SU30MKIs
46 Mirage 2000 upgraded to new variants,
54 Mig 29 Fulcrums upgraded
46 Mig 29 Ks ( Aircraft carrier based)
52 Mig 21 Bisons 
298 Mig 27ML, Mig 21FL/M/MF, Mig 23BN, Jaguar IS/IM 
----
892 

total combat aircraft..thats if the mig 21M/MFs survive that long. Considering the Mig 21's are phased out or converted into intermediate trainers, even a 600+ combat aircraft airforce is big especially with around 500 4.5 and 5 generation aircraft is very good. Will defintely be one of the best airforces in the world. 

Ofcourse we Americans will still reserve the top spot. Lol

Plus the T-50s which should roll out in 10 years considering the Su-47 , on which it will be based is already testing.


----------



## KENT

keith said:


> Also by now I am sure everybody has heard about the T-50 PAK-FA russian project. India just agreed to pump in $5 billion into it..maybe even more. I am really impressed by whats going on with the Indian Air Force.
> 
> 40 T-50's ( Atleast 40 will be delivered by 2015 )
> 126 The new MRCA deal
> 230 SU30MKIs
> 46 Mirage 2000 upgraded to new variants,
> 54 Mig 29 Fulcrums upgraded
> 46 Mig 29 Ks ( Aircraft carrier based)
> 52 Mig 21 Bisons
> 298 Mig 27ML, Mig 21FL/M/MF, Mig 23BN, Jaguar IS/IM
> ----
> 892
> 
> total combat aircraft..thats if the mig 21M/MFs survive that long. Considering the Mig 21's are phased out or converted into intermediate trainers, even a 600+ combat aircraft airforce is big especially with around 500 4.5 and 5 generation aircraft is very good. Will defintely be one of the best airforces in the world.
> 
> Ofcourse we Americans will still reserve the top spot. Lol
> 
> Plus the T-50s which should roll out in 10 years considering the Su-47 , on which it will be based is already testing.








Hey guy, see inducting T-50 in year of 2015 in IAF and that's even in 40 numbers, is quite wishful thinking on your part. Since T-50 is stealth aircraft which will be direct competitor to F-22 Raptor and F-35. Let the first flight take place, which will be scheduled to be in 2009/10, and then we will talk about induction in 2015 because still it is in drawing board. As Indians will be going to partner Russian in this ambitious project, it will be quite interesting to see how both this nation would be able to counter difficulties in due course of this project. Since the stealth technology is seems to be very difficult to master, even US found hard time in getting mastery in this tech. As well as Indians still struggling in getting reed of homegrown LCA, but off late it has accelerated. Looking at IAF past performance in evaluating aircraft parameter according to their need, it is quite unlikely that T-50 will get inducted in 2015. A lot depends upon Strategic and Political Climate as well prevailing in both this country, because recently Russian express their concern over India-US nuclear agreement deal. As you have mentioned IAF will still retain Mig-23 in inventory, let me ask you mig-23 is already phased out of the service.


----------



## su-47

also, u added Mig-29K to the list. Those are not for IAF, but for IN


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## JimmyJ

As per think tanks India will eventually need 60 squadrons in its full strength so as to counter the influence of any major powers in the Indian sphere of influence region. That will be more than 1000 fighters. This will happen only after warplanes are produced more at home rather than just TOT.
telegraphindia.com/1050511/asp/opinion/story_4721233.asp


----------



## Contrarian

The desired strength by IAF is 60 Sqds but the sanctioned strength is 49.5 sqds.
Either way, let them arrest the falling strength right now first and then talk about increasing the numbers.


----------



## ejaz007

January 20, 2008 (by Randall) - As the deadline for India's biggest defence deal ever nears, Lockheed Martin unveiled a new upgraded version of its F-16 with "super cruise" capability and AESA radar.

Untill recently, the "super cruise" capability was available only on its fifth generation fighters, the F-22 Raptor and the new F-35 Lightning II. The capability gives the fighter an extended range, and allows it to break trough the sound barrier without the use of fuel guzzling after-burners. 

Although supercruising is not being touted as one of the features of the new F-16, pilots flying the latest version say they often supercruise.

As the deadline for India's acquisition of 126 multi-role fighter aircrafts nears, Lockheed Martin has equipped the export version of the fighters, for the first time with Active Electronic Scanned Array (AESA) radars, as reportedly specified in the Indian Air Force's US$10 billion tender. The AESA radars give the F-16 capability to simultaneously track and destroy ground and air threats.

The AESA radar had been cleared before by the US government for installation in 80 F-16s ordered by the United Arab Emirates. India is now confident that a similar green signal would be given in their case.

The deal, awaiting clearance from the Cabinet Committee on Security, would be the first direct military sale by a US company to India. 

Speaking while unveiling the F-16IN, Lockheed Martin executive Chuck Artymovich said that the proposed fighter planes would also be armed with infra-red search and track pods as well as, counter-electronic warfare pods.

"The F-16IN is a complete new aircraft and totally caters to India's requirements and there could be no comparison with block 50 and 60 fighters, being made for other countries," he said.

Besides the F-16, other major contenders for the contract include Boeing's F-18 Hornet, the Russian MiG-35, the French Dassault Rafale, the Eurofighter Typhoon offered by a consortium of European aerospace manufacturers and the Swedish Saab Gripen. 

At the ceremony, Lockheed Martin executives said they had met all requirements proposed in the Indian Request For Proposals (RfP) without giving out any details of the contents, citing confidentiality.

They said that the company was prepared to meet the RFP requirements of offsets, and would do so in the field of aeronautics or for co-development of an Indian Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV).
F-16IN proposal for India unveiled


----------



## fatman17

France offers incentives to secure Indian MRCA contract
Rahul Bedi JDW Correspondent - New Delhi

Key Points
Dassault has offered India 40 Rafales as a "short-term measure" ahead of a decision on a 126 multirole combat aircraft order for the IAF 

French government policies are more conducive to smooth defence ties than those of the US, according to the Dassault chief executive 


France has joined its US and Russian competitors in offering incentives to the Indian Air Force (IAF) in an attempt to secure its INR420 billion (USD10 billion) contract for 126 multirole combat aircraft (MRCA). 

Dassault Chief Executive Charles Edelstenne, accompanying French President Nicholas Sarkozy on an official visit to India in late January, made India an "unsolicited" offer of 40 Rafale fighters, pending an "eventual decision" on the MRCA contract. 

"If India is interested, we are ready to answer," Edelstenne said. "The offer stands."

The Rafale is competing for the MRCA contract with Boeing's F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, the Eurofighter Typhoon, Lockheed Martin's F-16 IN, the Russian Aircraft Corporations MiG-35 and Saab's JAS 39 Gripen. Proposals by all six competitors are due in by 3 March 2008. 

*Edelstenne said the offer of 40 Rafales was a "short-term measure. We have some experience with Indian delays, which is why Dassault has made the unsolicited offer," he declared, in a swipe at India's Ministry of Defence (MoD), which is well known for being slow to finalise contracts. *

*The MoD and the IAF declined to comment on Edelstenne's offer. However, a senior military officer said that if India did accept Dassault's offer, it would "automatically" clinch the MRCA contract in France's favour. *

*Edelstenne also said that French government policies were more conducive to smooth defence ties with India than those of the US. *

*"Our market is for countries that want to be independent of the US. The US policy [of imposing sanctions and blocking arms deals] is well known. We are a country which sells military equipment without any preconditions," he said. *


----------



## KENT

Upcoming MRCA would be one among the F-16 or F-18 by looking at the collabration been made by Lokheed Martin as well as Boeing with Indian Industrial empire.


----------



## ak56

KENT said:


> Upcoming MRCA would be one among the F-16 or F-18 by looking at the collabration been made by Lokheed Martin as well as Boeing with Indian Industrial empire.



Dumbo. F-18 is a naval version, dont confuse it to be upgrade of F-16. F-18 is basically designed for Aircraft Carriers.


----------



## KENT

ak56 said:


> Dumbo.



Don't let your tongue go wayward mate, you have already shown your credentiles with this particuler word and your knowledge with F-18.



ak56 said:


> F-18 is a naval version, dont confuse it to be upgrade of F-16. F-18 is basically designed for Aircraft Carriers.



Go mate, seat in nursery and get some lesson over types of fighter planes and their usage, even following airforces are using F-18s, have they possess Aircraft carriers?

Royal Australian Air Force 
Canadian Forces 
Kuwait Air Force 
Royal Malaysian Air Force
Spanish Air Force 
Swiss Air Force 


If this is the case then why the heck Boeing is pitching hard with its F-18 for IAF MRCA? since it is an excellent ground attack fighter plane.


----------



## su-47

ak56 said:


> Dumbo.



dumbo? what are you? a kindergarden nerd?



ak56 said:


> F-18 is a naval version, dont confuse it to be upgrade of F-16. F-18 is basically designed for Aircraft Carriers.



F-18 is a multirole aircraft capable of operating on land or on aircraft carriers. just like the F-4 phantom. just coz USA uses it on carriers only doest make it incapable to operate from land. any plane capable of operating from a carrier can easily operate from land. 

check up your facts before you call someone dumbo again and make a fool of yourself.


----------



## Energon

Here's a Brochure for the F-16IN.
I don't know much about the F-16s, can someone please comment upon how these fare against the block 52s (I don't mean in air to air combat, just in general).

Boeing however seems to be hot on Lockheed Martin's trails and have a lot more in terms of offsets to offer on other fronts:


AINonline said:


> Boeing has embarked on a series of important initiatives&#8211;including a joint-venture proposal&#8211;that strengthens its ties with India. In the process, the company is hoping to become what Boeing India&#8217;s president, Ian Thomas, described as &#8220;India&#8217;s preferred aerospace and defense partner and provider.&#8221; Boeing currently is competing with five of the world&#8217;s major fighter manufacturers for a 126-aircraft order from the Indian Air Force.
> 
> The manufacturer has been active in India for decades, and its escalating involvement was reflected in December 2003 by the establishment of a wholly owned subsidiary, Boeing International Corporation India Private Ltd. (BICIPL).
> 
> Growth in business opportunities has increased since, and continues to do so with a flurry of new initiatives announced this year.
> 
> In late January, Boeing appointed Naveed Hussain to be vice president of engineering and technology, reporting to both Boeing India and the company&#8217;s Office of Technology. *Within days of his appointment, Hussain announced an agreement with the Indian Institute of Science and Indian technology companies Wipro and HCL Technologies.
> 
> The resulting Aerospace Network Research Consortium&#8211;a four-year collaborative effort led by Boeing to develop wireless and other network technologies for aerospace applications*&#8211;is India&#8217;s first public-private aerospace research teaming.
> On the commercial side, Boeing welcomed *TAL Manufacturing Solutions into the 787 family in early February. The wholly owned subsidiary of Tata Motors will build floor beams for the Dreamliner at a new plant at Nagpur*.
> 
> A week later&#8211;on February 14&#8211;Boeing and Tata Industries agreed on a plan to form a joint-venture company. The new entity is scheduled for establishment in June 2008, after which it will begin *supplying components into Boeing&#8217;s defense aircraft, such as the F/A-18 Super Hornet, the P-8 maritime patrol aircraft and the CH-47 Chinook.*
> 
> The establishment of manufacturing capabilities in the initial phase could later encompass more programs, including the Indian Air Force fighter deal, should Boeing be successful with its Super Hornet bid.


The GoI seems to be delaying this whole thing in order to milk as much as they possibly can out of these companies. It will be interesting to see who finally "lands the girl" so to speak.


----------



## su-47

i really doubt if India will pick F-16IN. Firstly F-16s are being retired in the USAF soon, and by the time we induct it, the USAF fleet would be about half-retired. MRCA aircraft are supposed to be a decisive force in the IAF, and we dont want to run ut of spares, like we did for the MiG-23 after the Russians retired the aircraft.

Secondly Pak pilots have flown the F-16 for 2 decades now. Even if the F-16s we get are more advanced, our pilots will be at a disadvantage against pak pilots who are better trained on that platform.


----------



## JEFF

su-47 said:


> i really doubt if India will pick F-16IN. Firstly F-16s are being retired in the USAF soon, and by the time we induct it, the USAF fleet would be about half-retired.



True, but remember GOI has specifally introduce 30% of offset system to arrest the discrepencies of spare parts, since spare parts problem will get nullified with outsourcing of spares from homgrown sources and F-16IN is not an ordinary system it is the aircraft which surpass all the capability of all other blocks of f-16s. Retirement from USAF doesn't make it anything less lethal, the point is that they are now in the process of inducting F-35 and F-22 and hence they are retiring this aircraft as soon as possible. 




su-47 said:


> MRCA aircraft are supposed to be a decisive force in the IAF, and we dont want to run ut of spares, like we did for the MiG-23 after the Russians retired the aircraft.



But there are several factor that are needed to be considered apart from spare parts which will get balanced on account of offset clauses. The point is that we need decisive advantage not only in terms of lethality but also learning point of view as well like transfer of technology from Supercruising capability, AESA, Stealth elements etc.




su-47 said:


> Secondly Pak pilots have flown the F-16 for 2 decades now. Even if the F-16s we get are more advanced, our pilots will be at a disadvantage against pak pilots who are better trained on that platform.



Better trained in terms of what? Have they trained in BVR equipped F-16 or having a long range radar in the past?

In addition to it, F-16s that were flown by PAF was of the Earlier version, I guess it is F-16A's, not something like F-16 Block 60. It is now that they have received some Block 52s, but apart from airframe there are lot many qualities the F-16IN has possessed which even Block 60 isn't even privliage of possessing it like supercruise as well sensors.


----------



## su-47

JEFF said:


> but apart from airframe there are lot many qualities the F-16IN has possessed which even Block 60 isn't even privliage of possessing it like supercruise as well sensors.



all these sensors will make f-16IN very expensive. plus we'll have to build infrastructure to house it. if we are going to spend that much money, might as well get the rafale or the eurofighter. both will get AESA soon. eurofighter can supercruise, and since we have infrastructure for mirage 2000, rafale will be easy to integrate. also, europeans are more reliable suppliers than US, who can pull the plug on us, like they did to pakistan.


----------



## con

JEFF said:


> In addition to it, F-16s that were flown by PAF was of the Earlier version, I guess it is F-16A's, not something like F-16 Block 60. It is now that they have received some Block 52s, but apart from airframe there are lot many qualities the F-16IN has possessed which even Block 60 isn't even privliage of possessing it like *supercruise* as well sensors.



F-16IN or F-16xx does not, will never super cruise. This notation came in being when as usual, idiot reporters printed that F-16 has ability to supercruise,when the LM guys just answered a question over supercruise, that it MAY BE able to, in a CLEAN CONFIGURATION.


----------



## su-47

MRCa might have been started as a stop-gap measure, but now i think it is going to form the creme-de la creme of IAF, until PAKFA (Sukhoi T-50) is inducted. As such, the MRCA aircraft should be top of the line, and offer capabilities beyond what is available to us right now. in other words, it should be better than our current best, the Su-30MKI. it should be an aircraft that would be in service till atleast 2040, coz the induction of MRCA aircraft will be done during the next decade and the aircraft should be in serivice atleast for 25 years, or it will be a waste of money. this means that the aircraft should be one that would undergo many upgrades during its lifetime.

Our neighbour, China, is currently modernising its ancient fleet of aircraft at a very hectic pace. Soon they will have an airforce that is not just based on quantity, but also quality. if we are to match them or beat them in the air, we'll need high quality aircraft that they wont have access to. the aircraft we choose should be better than anything china has, or will have, in the coming years.


----------



## JEFF

su-47 said:


> all these sensors will make f-16IN very expensive



Offcourse, it will but the thing is that when we can pure in $1 Billion for just 6 C-130 Hercules just on the pretext of better lifting capability rather then opting from IL-76 with greater speed and better defensive capability at much low cost and in huge number, then I don't think we would have any problem in spending another billion for procuring those F-16 sensors.



su-47 said:


> plus we'll have to build infrastructure to house it.



During the inductions of MKI we never made much noise about infrastructure problem, rather we improved MKI into potent beast then I don't think the goodies offering by F-16IN would not deter us to set another all new infrastrutre. 



su-47 said:


> if we are going to spend that much money, might as well get the rafale or the eurofighter. both will get AESA soon. eurofighter can supercruise, and since we have infrastructure for mirage 2000, rafale will be easy to integrate.



But Su-47 don't you think, since we have infrastructure for Mirage only to handle its servicing activity and Logistics Maintenance, since there is a huge difference between having an infrastructure for Maintenance and Licence production. On the top of that, Eurofighter, less said about it would be much more better, Do you seriously think it would afford to IAF? instead of forking extra sum why don't we go straight away for more and more MKI and we have infrastructure for it as well, whereas for eurofighter we will have to spend extra bucks to set its infrasture for licence production. In addition, Eurofighter will not going to offer us deep tech transfer which is the key object of MRCA unlike MIG-35. Regarding supercruising of Eurofighter, I heard it is only for limited endurance and it's AESA still about to get operational.




su-47 said:


> also, europeans are more reliable suppliers than US,



But at what cost! since they are not going to provide us with deep technology transfer that we need to strenghten the base of our aviation industry and whatever they are showing some superficial graciousness by providing us Eurofighter and Rafale but at higher cost.




su-47 said:


> who can pull the plug on us, like they did to pakistan.



There is a huge difference between India and Pakistan, Since pakistan cannot get the weapons from Russian because of INdia and from european because of highter cost and hence they left with only two alternative solution in the form of China and US in the form of F-16 and hence they get rattled with arms embargo from US and lack of modern technology from chinese. In case of India, our legacy speaks for itself and hence we never opt for US weapons no matter how superior they are, and hence we are asking for deep TOT for both F-16 and F-18 which US unlikely to provide us.


----------



## JEFF

con said:


> F-16IN or F-16xx does not, will never super cruise. This notation came in being when as usual, idiot reporters printed that F-16 has ability to supercruise,when the LM guys just answered a question over supercruise, that it MAY BE able to, in a CLEAN CONFIGURATION.



Ok so I get my words back regarding supercruising, but PAF F-16 block 52 and F-16IN is like comparing apple with orange, apart from sensors, it has only new engine and AESA, what about that! without AESA PAF pilot will get deprived of getting a first shot which IAF's pilots will be possessing on account of AESA equipped F-16IN


----------



## JEFF

su-47 said:


> MRCa might have been started as a stop-gap measure, but now i think it is going to form the creme-de la creme of IAF, until PAKFA (Sukhoi T-50) is inducted.



By looking at the depleting squadran strenghts of IAF, it is true but unless and until we dont have deep TOT then I don't think they are going to serve the our purpose. Regarding PAKFA, by looking at the US experience in building F-22, I don't think it would be a cake walk for us and russian to develop the same capability.




su-47 said:


> As such, the MRCA aircraft should be top of the line, and offer capabilities beyond what is available to us right now.



If it even manage to bring down the cost of current Support and Logistics alongwith Technology transfer then it will definetly serve our best purpose. 




su-47 said:


> in other words, it should be better than our current best, the Su-30MKI.



Nothing can surpass the ability of MKI from the current tidbits of MRCA, since MKI is completely a different plane, rather it should be called as a bomber, only one thing it lacks is Supercruising as well as AESA which we should definetly get from MRCA.




su-47 said:


> it should be an aircraft that would be in service till atleast 2040, coz the induction of MRCA aircraft will be done during the next decade and the aircraft should be in serivice atleast for 25 years, or it will be a waste of money. this means that the aircraft should be one that would undergo many upgrades during its lifetime.



As far as my understanding goes with our experience of Mirage-2000 fleet, only Rafale can win the race of highest servicable criterion of IAF.



su-47 said:


> Our neighbour, China, is currently modernising its ancient fleet of aircraft at a very hectic pace.



But at the same time they are producing the J-10 like a crazy which is a best fighter plane at much cheaper cost and in huge numbers.




su-47 said:


> Soon they will have an airforce that is not just based on quantity, but also quality. if we are to match them or beat them in the air, we'll need high quality aircraft that they wont have access to.



Su-47, one thing they have that we lacks severaly is the massive indigenious production of homegrown quality fighter planes like J-10 and J-11. By mere induction of quality MRCA, we simply can't beat them, we have to ramp the production of LCA at any cost to match their capability. The way they shown their confidence for building stealth J-xx without russian assistant is the chieling remainder of their quality over MRCA.




su-47 said:


> the aircraft we choose should be better than anything china has, or will have, in the coming years.



It is not about choosing anything, rather we should develop something on our own by massive production and only one thing that can give us this capability that is LCA. If it were in my hand, then I would prefer to cancel MRCA and ramp the production of LCA to full throttle and would be looking on MCA's testflights. Since to surpass the chinese, MRCA is absolutely not enough according to me since this MRCA don't have the capability to stood against topnoth chinese air defence system like S-300PMU and their chinese clones and derivatives. And hence to compensate attrition we need to choose LCA in massive number rather then then MRCA.


----------



## su-47

JEFF said:


> But at what cost! since they are not going to provide us with deep technology transfer that we need to strenghten the base of our aviation industry and whatever they are showing some superficial graciousness by providing us Eurofighter and Rafale but at higher cost.
> QUOTE]
> 
> What is the guarantee that USA will provide deep technological tranfer? France has been a very reliable supplier in the past (mirage 2000, jaguar) as has been the British (canberra, hunter, jaguar). they have provided full ToT for these planes. so if anything, we can trust the Europeans over the americans when it comes to ToT.
> 
> as for cost, the F-16 IN will have to be custom-built for India. this will obviously make it much costlier than the standard F-16. it may not be as high as the cost for eurofighter or raflae, but you have to remember that Eurofighter and rafale have airframes that are superior to the F-16. the eurofighter and rafale are designed to be the air superiority fighters of their respective airforces in the first few decades of the 21st century. so they will obviously undergo numerous upgrades during their lifetimes. in the case of F-16, it is at its pinnacle in terms of capability, and once USA retires them, they wont get any upgrades. when we compare F-16 with Rafale and eurofighter, we should compare their performances in 10 years time, not just now.
> 
> eurofighter and rafale maybe costly, but i believe that IAF can afford them. i think their costs are justified by their superior performance and promising future.


----------



## JEFF

su-47 said:


> What is the guarantee that USA will provide deep technological tranfer?



If you read my previous posts correctly, then you would definetly feel that I never advocated US F-16IN, rather I weighted about LCA productions.




su-47 said:


> France has been a very reliable supplier in the past (mirage 2000, jaguar) as has been the British (canberra, hunter, jaguar). they have provided full ToT for these planes.



True, but on those occassion our aviation industry wasn't flourshing with sucess like now. And on the top of that those fighter planes provided by France and British didn't seems to have cost that much to IAF like the way Eurofighter and Rafale are costing us now. 




su-47 said:


> so if anything, we can trust the Europeans over the americans when it comes to ToT.



Definetly but at much higher cost at the cost of diverting the money from indigeous aviation segment to import, like the blunder we committed during selection of Jaguars during 70s by compensating our capability in the form of homegrown Marut just on the pretext of acquiring the jaguar becuase of lower weapon load of Maruts and leave our aviation industry stranded.



su-47 said:


> as for cost, the F-16 IN will have to be custom-built for India. this will obviously make it much costlier than the standard F-16. it may not be as high as the cost for eurofighter or raflae,



True, but some of its technology is truly unmatched by either Rafale and Eurofighter like its AESA and Sensors as well as Avionics.




su-47 said:


> but you have to remember that Eurofighter and rafale have airframes that are superior to the F-16.



True, but our need is to achieve a kind of a technology which would in the long run beneficial to our homegrown aviation industry as well, just airframe cannot make much difference.



su-47 said:


> the eurofighter and rafale are designed to be the air superiority fighters of their respective airforces in the first few decades of the 21st century. so they will obviously undergo numerous upgrades during their lifetimes.



True.



su-47 said:


> in the case of F-16, it is at its pinnacle in terms of capability, and once USA retires them, they wont get any upgrades.



No mate, you are holding me wrong here, I am not trying to advocate F-16 over here just focus my emphasis on accompanied technologies that F-16 or F-18 would bring to us.



su-47 said:


> when we compare F-16 with Rafale and eurofighter, we should compare their performances in 10 years time, not just now.eurofighter and rafale maybe costly, but i believe that IAF can afford them. i think their costs are justified by their superior performance and promising future.



But Su-47, both typhoon and rafale are costing us very exorbitantly alongwith their infrastrucutre. I know they would definetly bring superior performance but one can assure that it would also cost us very much during lifetime upgrade.


----------



## con

JEFF said:


> Ok so I get my words back regarding supercruising, but PAF F-16 block 52 and F-16IN is like comparing apple with orange, apart from sensors, it has only new engine and AESA, what about that! without AESA PAF pilot will get deprived of getting a first shot which IAF's pilots will be possessing on account of AESA equipped F-16IN



Not really. what would the difference in detection range b/w a Block 52 and AESA F-16? No much actually. AESA is not a wonder weapon when it comes to detection range. It has other abilities which makes it a force multiplier.

Any way with AWACS in picture,everyone will see everyone.


----------



## su-47

Jeff, India needs to have a top quality airforce if we are to be a superpower in the coming decades. The typhoon and rafale are high 4.5 gen aircraft that are capable of being made into true 5th gen aircraft in the coming decades, with upgrades. i agree that it will be very costly, but national security cannot be compromised. as our economy grows, so will our defence budget. by buying rafale or typhoon, we will ensure access to state of the art technology for the entire life time of those fighters. they will give our scientists access to the best of european technology, which we can use on our own fighters once we assimilate the technology. 

as for LCA being integrated in large numbers, dont you think it'll be better to have fewer LCAs upgraded with european tech accessed via typhoon/rafale than have a lot of LCAs without that tech?


----------



## JEFF

con said:


> Not really. what would the difference in detection range b/w a Block 52 and AESA F-16? No much actually.



Not much!, have you know about AESA of F-16 is APG-80 which is next only to APG-81 configured in F-35.... regarding Block 52's APG-68 it has range of slightly less then 300 km, APG-80 equipped F-16 will be act just like AWACS which would even bring down our anymore need of surplus awacs. 




con said:


> AESA is not a wonder weapon when it comes to detection range.



True, but right now the AESA which we are talking about is not any less versatile either, just think about haveing AESA in our inventory, it would completely transform our survellience tactics.




con said:


> It has other abilities which makes it a force multiplier.



but APG-80 is just beyond something called as Force Multiplier and our dire need as well.



con said:


> Any way with AWACS in picture,everyone will see everyone.



Only having AWACS doesn't mean that you will have a cakewalk, there are several things that come into the picture like EW, ECM, BVR missile which currently PAF lacks.

but have you know about russians are fast developing AWACS killer BVR missiles which is believe to be acquire by IAF in future.


----------



## JEFF

su-47 said:


> Jeff, India needs to have a top quality airforce if we are to be a superpower in the coming decades.



To become a superpower, one need to stood on its own feet and achieve a self reliance in everything. Just look at the china, inspite of having inferior fighter planes according to the western standard, they have still on the path achieving a complete indigeous system which is quite reflective from the induction of J-10 and proposed building of J-xx on their own. 

Just by buying a imported weapon regardless of how superier they are doesn't gurantee to achieve our ambition of becoming a superpower.




su-47 said:


> The typhoon and rafale are high 4.5 gen aircraft that are capable of being made into true 5th gen aircraft in the coming decades, with upgrades.



No matter how much you modify this aircraft they still can't attain the status of 5th generation aircraft, at most we can reduce their RCS but exterior weapon attached on this plane still reflect their signature on radar.

The MRCA that we are talking about don't even have any stealth capability and are sitting duck against real pradetors like Chinese air defence system in the form of S-300 and their derivates. 




su-47 said:


> i agree that it will be very costly, but national security cannot be compromised.



Just don't think about that our national security is anymore focusing on Paksitan centeric and now it is tilting towards chinese centeric and hence we are buying this topnoth MRCA tidbids. Suppose if we require to scramble any of this MRCA towards foiling any chinese incursion on our northeast border, then can you guarantee me as they weill return in a single pieaces?

We want best value for whatever we are going to purchase and just shelling out extra would not gurantee us best results. Since the things is that Rafale is jewel in the crown of France and hence they would not let it go cheaply as we bought MKIs and at the same time chances that even PAF would bring this rafale to counter ours, since PAF know that french are very reliable and would not face sanctions. Regarding Eurofighter, do you really think that they are going to provide us full TOT in the form of AESA which is our dire need.




su-47 said:


> as our economy grows, so will our defence budget.



But according to our defence budget, we need to spend more then 70&#37; of budget on indigeous weapon and eurofighter and rafale that you are talking about would not let us to attain this figure by owing to their higher cost.



su-47 said:


> by buying rafale or typhoon, we will ensure access to state of the art technology for the entire life time of those fighters.



True, but we are now incresingly focusing on indigeous system so this tidbits have a very little to offer to our homegrown system like AESA, Engine.




su-47 said:


> they will give our scientists access to the best of european technology, which we can use on our own fighters once we assimilate the technology.



There is not a single news that I have read about that Europeans are going to provide us a full TOT like Boeing and russians are offering us.




su-47 said:


> as for LCA being integrated in large numbers, dont you think it'll be better to have fewer LCAs upgraded with european tech accessed via typhoon/rafale than have a lot of LCAs without that tech?



Can you elobrate me what we are going to configure in LCA through the Typhon and rafale? since there is already a seperate JVs Improve engine of our LCA with europeans as well as associated engine development like shakti engine in Dhurv, so remain AESA, I think it is highly unlikely.

The whole point of having a large number of LCA as deterrant as whenever tommorow if chinese think about following any mischief against India, they would required to think 10 times by looking at the number, since level of technology is same between us and them, just quantity wise we are lacking and that exactly what we need to arrest by having a large number of small LCA rather then having token number of this MRCA tidbits.


----------



## con

JEFF said:


> Not much!, have you know about AESA of F-16 is APG-80 which is next only to APG-81 configured in F-35.... regarding Block 52's APG-68 it has range of slightly less then 300 km, APG-80 equipped F-16 will be act just like AWACS which would even bring down our anymore need of surplus awacs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> True, but right now the AESA which we are talking about is not any less versatile either, just think about haveing AESA in our inventory, it would completely transform our survellience tactics.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> but APG-80 is just beyond something called as Force Multiplier and our dire need as well.
> 
> 
> 
> Only having AWACS doesn't mean that you will have a cakewalk, there are several things that come into the picture like EW, ECM, BVR missile which currently PAF lacks.
> 
> but have you know about russians are fast developing AWACS killer BVR missiles which is believe to be acquire by IAF in future.



300 km range? I would to see some proof of that. Americans don't design radar with such powerful transmitters. That is a Russian way of doing things,because they could not develop sensitive receivers. You dont want to ring your adversary's RWR do you?

I am yet to come across a report where it states that 80 has such a range.

As far as IAF needing "extra" AWACS is considered SU-30 more or less fulfills the role. Also do tell me what is this "dire need" to have APG-80? BARS currently fulfill the excepted role very well. Just like a AESA it is also able to attack air and ground targets at the same time. Ofcourse it does not mean that it is equivalent to an AESA,but some features yes.

No one is saying that AWACS is end of all. I was just responding over the notion of detection and hence stated that with AWACS, there is less "surprises". You dont require cutting edge anti-radiation missile to bring down a AWACS. In fact it might escape an ARM given that it has powerful ECM sources. Worse all it has to do is shut down it's radar.


----------



## JEFF

con said:


> 300 km range? I would to see some proof of that. Americans don't design radar with such powerful transmitters.
> That is a Russian way of doing things,because they could not develop sensitive receivers. You dont want to ring your adversary's RWR do you?
> 
> I am yet to come across a report where it states that 80 has such a range.



Read properly my previous post to which radar I had quoted 300 km range.



con said:


> As far as IAF needing "extra" AWACS is considered SU-30 more or less fulfills the role.



But still there is some difference between PESA and AESA. 



con said:


> Also do tell me what is this "dire need" to have APG-80?



To familirise ourseleves with this new technology, to learn from it while designing something like on our own, otherwise we didn't included it in RFP.



con said:


> BARS currently fulfill the excepted role very well. Just like a AESA it is also able to attack air and ground targets at the same time. Ofcourse it does not mean that it is equivalent to an AESA,but some features yes.



So you accept that AESA prevails over PESA. Since AESA equipped awacs made the use of AWACS more or less useless.



con said:


> No one is saying that AWACS is end of all. I was just responding over the notion of detection and hence stated that with AWACS, there is less "surprises". You dont require cutting edge anti-radiation missile to bring down a AWACS. In fact it might escape an ARM given that it has powerful ECM sources.



But how does AWACS going to evade Jamming pod, our MKI are already fitted with ELTA El/M-8222.



con said:


> Worse all it has to do is shut down it's radar.



So how does AWACS going to navigate all other fighter planes about incoming threat?


----------



## mujahideen

Gates in India to push US firms

US Defence Secretary Robert Gates has arrived in Delhi on a two-day visit aimed at bolstering military ties and promoting US arms manufacturers. 
US firms are competing with Russian and European rivals for a multi-billion dollar deal to sell India fighter jets. 

Mr Gates has said he wants to "expand" India's "significantly improved relationship" with the US. India has largely relied on Russian arms imports. 

India meanwhile says it successfully tested a new type of ballistic missile. 

The nuclear-capable missile was launched from an underwater platform off the south-eastern coast of India, a defence ministry official told the AFP news agency. 

The new missile is expected to serve a nuclear submarine being built by India. 

*'Best package' *

Mr Gates is expected to spend his two-day visit lobbying for US firms that hope to win a contract to supply India with 126 new fighter jets. 

US-based Lockheed and Boeing are competing for the deal, valued at between $10bn-$12bn. 

Other firms fighting for the contract include Russia's Mig, France's Dassault, Sweden's Saab and the Eurofighter consortium of British, German, Italian and Spanish companies. 

The deadline for the bids expires next week. 

A US official told Reuters news agency Mr Gates would aim to show that Americans offered not only the best product but the best maintenance package too. 

US firms "operate with integrity", the official said, "which is different than what India has seen with other partners in the world". 

*Nuclear deal *

Speaking before his visit, Mr Gates said the improved relationship between India and US had been one of the most significant changes since he was last in government 15 years ago. 

"I want to see what we can do to not only strengthen that [relationship] but perhaps expand it in other ways," he said. 

Defence co-operation between India and the US has increased dramatically since the end of the Cold War, with both countries seemingly driven by a desire to check China's growing military influence. 

India earlier this month agreed a $1bn deal to buy military transport aircraft from US firm Lockheed Martin. 

However, a key deal that would see the US supply India with nuclear technology for civilian uses has yet to be approved by India. 

The deal, which would end a three-decade US ban on nuclear exports to India, is opposed by the Indian government's communist allies. 

BBC NEWS | South Asia | Gates in India to push US firms


----------



## ejaz007

*India defers bidding in $12bn fighter jet contract*

* Two-month extension given after some bidders sought more time

NEW DELHI: India has extended a deadline for global military aviation giants to bid to sell 126 fighter jets worth as much as 12 billion dollars, the government said Thursday.

The announcement of the two-month extension comes after reports that one or more bidders had sought additional time. The deadline had been set for March 3. India floated the global tender for the fighter jets last August and said six contenders were on a short list. A defence ministry spokesman confirmed to AFP that some of the contenders had at the last minute sought more time to finalise their offers.

We want to ensure that there is maximum competition till the last stage and also some vendors had expressed the view in various fora that they should be given more time to tie up with Indian industry for collaborative efforts, spokesman Sitanshu Kar said. Also, our objective is to get the best equipment and platforms at the best price and so we want (that) the competition should remain wide, Kar added. India had reportedly turned down a request for such an extension by one of the Western firms during a four-day arms fair in New Delhi that ended February 19.

Seattle-based Boeing, one of the front-runners, said it was ready with its bid for the contract, which stipulates that 18 jets will be bought in fly-away condition by 2012 and the rest assembled in India. Our proposal to offer Super Hornets to India is complete, Boeing Integrated Defence Systems spokesman Chris Chadwick said in a statement to AFP. We are ready with a fully compliant proposal and will submit it three days early. US-based aerospace firm Lockheed Martin, which is offering its F-16s to the Indian airforce, said last week it could meet the deadline.

We have sought no extension and plan to meet the deadline, company vice president Orville Prins recently told reporters in New Delhi. Russian manufacturers were not immediately available for comment and a spokesman from EADS, the European consortium selling Typhoon Eurofighter jets, said it would issue a statement later Thursday. Industry sources said at least two rivals called for the extra time in a bid to bypass a military import policy, which has been labelled restrictive by international arms firms.

The policy stipulates foreign firms selling products to India must re-invest up to 50 percent of the total amount to build manufacturing capacity in the country. afp

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan


----------



## Malang

Published in Business Standard
26th February 2008

By the 6th of March, six global aircraft majors --- Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Dassault, Eurofighter GmbH, Gripen International and RAC-MiG --- must submit offers for selling India 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA). Worth an estimated $11 billion, this could be one of the biggest arms sales ever. For Indian defence planning, it would be the most expensive folly ever.

In acquiring yet another type of fighter aircraft, the Indian Air Force (IAF) will compound an existing problem of interoperability. There are major differences between Russian block equipment (the MiG series, and the Sukhoi-30MKI) and Western bloc equipment (the Mirage-2000 and the Jaguar). As a result, each IAF airbase is geared to support a certain type of aircraft; other types cannot just fly in and operate from there without major logistic preparations.

Consider an imaginary war with Pakistan. If India were launching a ground offensive, say around Lahore, the IAF would support that thrust with as many combat aircraft as possible. It would need to bomb Pakistani airbases to prevent the Pakistan Air Force from taking off; it would strike Pakistani ground forces and the infrastructure that supports them; it would also perform other missions like photoreconnaissance. Since the airbases around Lahore have just a small number of aircraft, fighters based in Rajasthan, Maharashtra, Madhya Pradesh and the eastern sector will need to be re-located to Punjab, just before the battle begins.

That is where the problem begins. A Mirage 2000 cannot easily relocate from its permanent base in Gwalior to an airbase in, say, Pathankote. The Pathankote airbase supports Mig-series aircraft; its maintenance personnel, spare parts inventory, stocks of bombs and rockets and operational practices are geared towards MiGs. Today, if a Mirage 2000 were to land in Pathankote, it would require an entire support team from Gwalior to make it take off again. In wartime, relocating a squadron of Mirage-2000s would be a major logistical exercise and a clear signal to Pakistan of an impending attack.

This problem is already set to worsen when Indias Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), called the Tejas, enters service with the IAF. Purchasing a new MMRCA will invite a full-blown logistic nightmare. 

Besides the need for inter-base operability, there is another good reason to abandon the MMRCA purchase: todays IAF simply cannot exploit the capabilities of the aircraft it is setting out to buy. The technological excellence of a modern MMRCA, like the Eurofighter or the Rafale, does not lie in its airframe, engines, or its flying performance. Instead, its advantages lie in avionics, and in its net-centric capability, which means that the aircraft and its pilot are seamlessly integrated into an electronic battlefield management system. This system receives inputs --- in real time --- from a comprehensive network of radars, airborne warning systems and satellites; and it displays these inputs in the form of a battlefield picture. The controllers then allocate targets to Indian fire units, which could be fighter aircraft, cruise missiles, ballistic missiles or even army rocket batteries. Air forces like the American, British and French can electronically assign a target to an airborne fighter and automatically upload a digital map of the target area.

India is far from such a network. Our radars operate in small clumps, our data links are not in place, and our airspace management network is inferior even to Pakistans. Many of our key systems work on incompatible protocols. An economically resurgent India can afford to buy the MMRCA. But doing so would be like a farmer with a bumper crop busting his money on a BMW with a city navigation system and great FM stereo. He wouldnt use most of the high-tech systems. 

So what is Indias smarter alternative? The path is illuminated by an earlier IAF procurement, the carefully structured Sukhoi-30MKI fighter. Instead of accepting a ready-built Russian aircraft for fancy prices, the IAF creatively married Sukhois airframe and engine excellence, with an advanced avionics package made from Israeli and French components. The Sukhoi-30MKIs avionics were tailor-made for IAF requirements; India did not pay fancy prices for capabilities that would never be used. The Sukhoi experience was further refined when the IAF went about upgrading the MiG series fighters; advanced avionics will extend their service lives at minimal cost.

India must stick with a medium fighter that it already flies. The IAF has long pressed for increasing the size of its Mirage 2000 fleet (currently 52 aircraft), a fighter that its pilots hold in high regard. An advanced variant of the Mirage 2000 was one of the options in the MMRCA purchase until Paris replaced it with the newer, more expensive Rafale fighter, informing New Delhi that the Mirage 2000 production line was being wound up. An opportunity lies here for India; Paris would most likely grab the chance to sell India the Mirage 2000 production line, and benefit from production royalties and the opportunity to involve French avionics companies like Thales and Thomson CSF in developing an aviation package customised for India. France realises that American and Russian marketing clout in New Delhi leaves it with little chance of selling the Rafale.

Today, no official or politician is willing to tell the Indian public the unpalatable truth that the IAF is not technologically geared to operate highly networked fighter aircraft. Instead, it is more convenient to make grandiose declarations about providing the military with the worlds best equipment and then stonewalling the purchase with layers of procedures. Opting for a near-state-of-the-art, made-in-India Mirage 2000 variant requires not just a fine understanding of defence planning but also the courage to make and publicly defend a subjective military decision. Neither quality has been in evidence in the MoD so far.


----------



## ejaz007

Well written article. That is why I said that Mig-35 should be a natural choice because of Indian good awareness of Russian technology and easy inventory management.
Just on the funny side I thought Pakistan should have also marketed its JF-17's. You just don't know what might happen in an Indian tender.


----------



## JEFF

This is a reportage of Ajay Shukla, as usual it is one another example of poor reportage and hence nothing but an unsurprising stuff.

Let me point out some chieling points from his report.



Malang said:


> Published in Business Standard
> 26th February 2008
> For Indian defence planning, it would be the most expensive folly ever.



What makes Ajay shukla think that? especially when more then half of total cost will be invested in India itself.



Malang said:


> In acquiring yet another type of fighter aircraft, the Indian Air Force (IAF) will compound an existing problem of interoperability. There are major differences between Russian block equipment (the MiG series, and the Sukhoi-30MKI) and Western bloc equipment (the Mirage-2000 and the Jaguar). As a result, each IAF airbase is geared to support a certain type of aircraft; other types cannot just fly in and operate from there without major logistic preparations.



HE HE HE HE, I just can't stop my laugh upon how one can be naive!

IAF has so far operated various types during the each and every conflict or peaceful period or during joint exercises successfully then how does this question of interoperability of logistics, maintenance and service get raised?

Even during Alaska Joint exercise with USAF, we had brought our Jaguars to Alaska, so according to the Ajay shukla IAF had shifted all its entire fleet of jaguar&#8217;s maintenance and ground personnel to Alaska.




Malang said:


> Consider an imaginary war with Pakistan. If India were launching a ground offensive, say around Lahore,
> the IAF would support that thrust with as many combat aircraft as possible. It would need to bomb Pakistani airbases to prevent the Pakistan Air Force from taking off; it would strike Pakistani ground forces and the infrastructure that supports them; it would also perform other missions like photoreconnaissance.




One can see that mind of Ajay shukla is still romming around the airwar of 1965 and 1971 and upon that similar notion he has made several mistakes in his report.




Malang said:


> Since the airbases around Lahore have just a small number of aircraft,



How does he knows regarding presense of small number of aircraft around Lahore? 




Malang said:


> fighters based in Rajasthan, Maharashtra, Madhya Pradesh and the eastern sector will need to be re-located to Punjab, just before the battle begins.



How does he knows that fighters from these part would be relocated hypothetically since according doctrine of any airforce relocation of any fighter type remains anonymous.




Malang said:


> That is where the problem begins. A Mirage 2000 cannot easily relocate from its permanent base in Gwalior to an airbase in, say, Pathankote. The Pathankote airbase supports Mig-series aircraft; its maintenance personnel, spare parts inventory, stocks of bombs and rockets and operational practices are geared towards MiGs.



Ajay shukla seems to have made an very fatal mistakes in his report, as how didn&#8217;t he takes into account several Russian originating BVR, WVR Missiles, air to ground ammunition are compatible with Mirage-2000, so ground staff from pathankote don&#8217;t have to fight while incorporating ammunition over mirage of Russian origin. On the top of that shifting of maintenance personnal, spare parts inventory are not a big deal since IAF is quite versatile in this respect as far as its experience as well as eagerness in joint exercises with various foreign airforces.




Malang said:


> Today, if a Mirage 2000 were to land in Pathankote, it would require an entire support team from Gwalior to make it take off again.



Why doe it so? 

Is there thing that those ground personnel who are situated in gwalior are the only human species in the world that can make IAF&#8217;s Mirage-2000 flyable?




Malang said:


> In wartime, relocating a squadron of Mirage-2000s would be a major logistical exercise and a clear signal to Pakistan of an impending attack.



How does Pakistan knows about it regarding the presense of a particular aircraft type on IAF&#8217; airbase?




Malang said:


> This problem is already set to worsen when India&#8217;s Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), called the Tejas, enters service with the IAF.



As usual, Ajay shukla simply couldn&#8217;t refrain himself from spoiling the name of LCA.




Malang said:


> Purchasing a new MMRCA will invite a full-blown logistic nightmare.



As thought by ill mentality of Ajay shukla.




Malang said:


> Besides the need for inter-base operability, there is another good reason to abandon the MMRCA purchase: today&#8217;s IAF simply cannot exploit the capabilities of the aircraft it is setting out to buy.



HE HE HE HE HE&#8230;.! I can&#8217;t stop from laughing as how does an experienced IAF in operating various types of aircraft in its lifetime can&#8217;t exploits the capabilities of MRCA?




Malang said:


> The technological excellence of a modern MMRCA, like the Eurofighter or the Rafale, does not lie in its airframe, engines, or its flying performance. Instead, its advantages lie in avionics, and in its net-centric capability, which means that the aircraft and its pilot are seamlessly integrated into an electronic battlefield management system.




Oh Ajay shukla there is no parallel to you in the world! 

Ajay shukla seems to have sounding like IAF is na&#239;ve in net-centric capability, avionics, electronic battlefield management etc.





Malang said:


> This system receives inputs --- in real time --- from a comprehensive network of radars, airborne warning systems and satellites;




All these inputs are in place but I failed to understand why does Ajay shukla&#8217;s stomach is aching over this input.



Malang said:


> and it displays these inputs in the form of a battlefield picture. The controllers then allocate targets to Indian fire units, which could be fighter aircraft, cruise missiles, ballistic missiles or even army rocket batteries. Air forces like the American, British and French can electronically assign a target to an airborne fighter and automatically upload a digital map of the target area.



Oh I see, so IAF which has an distinction of exercising with several advance and top of the line airforce in the world is still unaware about battlefield picture as describe by so called ajay shukla.




Malang said:


> India is far from such a network.



Which network is he talking about? Since according several reports publish by IAF and IA, both of this entity are striving for network centric capability and IAF is also embark upon in the form of aerospace command.




Malang said:


> Our radars operate in small clumps,



I think name of Induction of Green pine radar, Aerostate radar, Indra radar, Rajendra radar and several other existing and upgraded radars are still align to Ajay shukla.




Malang said:


> our data links are not in place,



How does we can place datalink in the absence of MRCA? Especially when US is unwilling to allow datalinking of F-18&#8217;s by IAF which is developed in house by India itself..




Malang said:


> and our airspace management network is inferior even to Pakistan&#8217;s.



Ha HA HA HA HA! Ajay shukla tera jawab nahi.




Malang said:


> Many of our key systems work on incompatible protocols.



Which protocol does he talking about? Can someone tell me?



Malang said:


> An economically resurgent India can afford to buy the MMRCA. But doing so would be like a farmer with a bumper crop busting his money on a BMW with a city navigation system and great FM stereo. He wouldn&#8217;t use most of the high-tech systems.



So this is key contention of Ajay shukla and hence he doesn&#8217;t find any other subject other MRCA by exhibits his poor reportage.



Malang said:


> So what is India&#8217;s smarter alternative? The path is illuminated by an earlier IAF procurement, the carefully structured Sukhoi-30MKI fighter. Instead of accepting a ready-built Russian aircraft for fancy prices, the IAF creatively married Sukhoi&#8217;s airframe and engine excellence, with an advanced avionics package made from Israeli and French components. The Sukhoi-30MKI&#8217;s avionics were tailor-made for IAF requirements; India did not pay fancy prices for capabilities that would never be used. The Sukhoi experience was further refined when the IAF went about upgrading the MiG series fighters; advanced avionics will extend their service lives at minimal cost.



This is nothing but clear case of bribe that is being paid by Russian to Ajay shukla to go for false reportage.




Malang said:


> India must stick with a medium fighter that it already flies. The IAF has long pressed for increasing the size of its Mirage 2000 fleet (currently 52 aircraft), a fighter that its pilots hold in high regard. An advanced variant of the Mirage 2000 was one of the options in the MMRCA purchase until Paris replaced it with the newer, more expensive Rafale fighter, informing New Delhi that the Mirage 2000 production line was being wound up. An opportunity lies here for India; Paris would most likely grab the chance to sell India the Mirage 2000 production line, and benefit from production royalties and the opportunity to involve French avionics companies like Thales and Thomson CSF in developing an aviation package customised for India. France realises that American and Russian marketing clout in New Delhi leaves it with little chance of selling the Rafale.




Oh so sudden change now Ajay shukla is expressing his sympathy towards French after so much bashing of western fighter planes, seems to be even French are lobbying hard to bring Rafale below the throat of IAF and hence French doesn&#8217;t seems to have remain far behind in bribing Ajay shukla.




Malang said:


> Today, no official or politician is willing to tell the Indian public the unpalatable truth that the IAF is not technologically geared to operate highly networked fighter aircraft.



How does they can tell this truth? Especially when if you have to become competent with hightly network centric aircaft, you have to possess those aircraft in first place. 



Malang said:


> Instead, it is more convenient to make grandiose declarations about providing the military with the world&#8217;s best equipment and then stonewalling the purchase with layers of procedures.



But now several in built filters are in place to smoothen this layers of procedures




Malang said:


> Opting for a near-state-of-the-art, made-in-India Mirage 2000 variant requires not just a fine understanding of defence planning but also the courage to make and publicly defend a subjective military decision.



I don&#8217;t understand why does this Ajay shukla is propogating about Mirage-2000 especially when it can&#8217;t no loger fulfill IAF&#8217;s demand.



Malang said:


> Neither quality has been in evidence in the MoD so far.



And How about porr quality of your reportage ajay shuklaji?


----------



## Always Neutral

JEFF said:


> This is a reportage of Ajay Shukla, as usual it is one another example of poor reportage and hence nothing but an unsurprising stuff.
> 
> 
> And How about porr quality of your reportage ajay shuklaji?



Dear Jeff,

I think you should check Col. A Shukla's (retd) credentials with your own before calling him or his views lame. While some of his points may not be to your agenda but dumb he is not.

Regards


----------



## JEFF

Always Neutral said:


> Dear Jeff,
> 
> I think you should check Col. A Shukla's (retd) credentials with your own before



I am well aware about his credentials since he is one among severl criticizers whose reportage often contains severl stark errors like above.



Always Neutral said:


> calling him or his views lame. While some of his points may not be to your agenda but dumb he is not.
> Regards



Pls point me out which point you are positioning to my agenda?


----------



## sohailbutt

Guys i was googlin abut MRCA tender, i came across this:

"Features Mig-35: 
> New uprated RD-33 engine with a smoke free and corossion resistant chamber and more importantly 3D all aspect 360 degree thrust vectoring 

> A new fuel system that allows longer range and in-flight refuelling. 

> Payload increased significantly 

> New IRST 

> Latest Russian RAM coatings have decreased the effective cross-section of the fighter by 300% to 400%. 

> The Mig-35 offered to India features an open architecture avionics suite with a MIL-STD-1553B multiplex bus (a first - and this would facilitate integration with western components) and a new multichannel navigation system. 

> Russia and Mig have agreed to incorporate an Israeli radar and French avionics components into the Mig-35. 
Israel have offered India their latest EL/M-2052 AESA radar with 1500+ T/R modules and a ridiculously high tracking capability of 64 targets. 

Infact Israel are aggressively marketing this radar in various sizes to India and even displayed it at Aero India-2005 ... its also noteworthy they also signed a deal with India to fit India's Sea Harrier's with the EL/M 2032 and Derby BVR missiles in addition to other avionic upgrades 

Here's Alexei Fyodorov, the general director of MiG corporation speaking about it >> 

Quote:

"We will offer our MiG-35 multirole fighters with thrust vectoring control along with transfer of technology for indigenous production in India" Director General and Chief Designer of Russian Aircraft Corporation (RAC) 'MiG' Alexei Fedorov said. 

"It has incorporated all the features of MiG-29M/M2 fighters developed on the basis of MiG-29 frontline fighter and today we can offer top-of-the-line multirole combat aircraft with in-flight refuelling" Fedorov said. 

According to MiG Deputy Chief Designer Andrei Karasyov MiG-35 is capable of delivering all present and future weapons, since it has universal open architecture. 

We are willing to integrate any system, as the user wants it." MiG officials expect India to ask for Israeli Elta radars, display components from France and weaponry of Russian origin. "We have not frozen the technology specifications," said Fyodorov. 

The Russians say they can offer the MiG-35 in a Brahmos-like package to Indiatransfer technology for manufacture within India, and jointly develop the aircraft further and sell it to third countries. "It is a double jump over the Sukhoi deal, so to speak," said a senior official in Rosoboronexport, Russias defence export agency. The Sukhoi-30MKI also has thrust vector technology, but is limited to one direction. The technology installed in MiG-35 would allow 360 degree manoeuvrability. And, though the Sukhoi-MKI was developed jointly, there is no provision for joint marketing in the deal. 

http://www.the-week.com/25sep04/current ... ticle1.htm 
http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_ ... 050004.htm 
-- 
The other 2, namely the Gripen and the Mirage 2000-5 are far behind and are not worthy of mention. 
-- 
Since the F-16 is facing tough competition, what do you suppose are the systems and sub systems that the block 70 needs to have to stand a fighting chance ?? 

Here's what an indian defence page thinks >> ...Although details of the F-16C Block 70 upgrade are yet to be revealed one may well expect it to include  Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar capable of interleaving air-to-air, air-to-ground and terrain following modes, providing high resolution Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR) ground imaging and capable of automatic terrain following; Infra-Red (IR) detection kit and a formidable Electronic Warfare (EW) suite. The package may include an impressive array of US air-to-air and air-to-ground weaponry and the incorporation of aerodynamic aluminium Conformal Fuel Tanks (CFT) that blend nicely with the upper fuselage, which will ensure long-range and endurance with unaffected aerodynamic performance. .. link"

Source: F-16.net - F-16 block 70 offered to India ... specs ?

Guys this is alarming mig-35 with 360 thrust vectoring, capability to carry brahmos, an advanced israeli radar which can track 64 targets, smoke free engine, full TOT, i think Mig-35 will win MRCA!!!!!!

GUYS CAN SOMEONE EXPLAIN ME WHY IS US OFFEREING SUPERHORNET, AND BLOCK 70 TO india, IS IT TO COUNTER CHINA N PAKISTAN IN THE FUTURE OR JUST IS IT, WITH ENOUGH MONEY U CAN BUY ANYTHIN????????

One thing i know for sure is that US always sells weapons when they have a political goal to be achieved, as they do with PAKISTAN!!!!!!


----------



## Energon

The Mig35 is undoubtedly a great platform. However the primary problem is that it's still untested and not in production unlike the rest of its competitors. Also, the Mig35 is likely to have a very high per unit cost price given that there aren't too many users lined up. If India did however acquire full licensing rights to this aircraft it may end up being a good deal. The advantages of doing business with the west however has many more advantages.


----------



## ejaz007

Defenseindustrydaily.com has posted latest update on the MRCA. Its a long report, however this is what seems to be the update:

"April 24/08: Boeing delivers a 7,000-page proposal offering its advanced F/A-18E/F Super Hornet to the Indian Air Force, and The U.S. Embassy in New Delhi will formally hand it over to Indian Ministry of Defense. The F/A-18IN includes Raytheons APG-79 Active Electronically Scanned Array radar, and Boeing is also touting the claim that the fighter wont need a scheduled visit to a maintenance depot until it has clocked a minimum of 6,000 hours of flying time, and even well beyond that. Delivery of the first F/A-18IN Super Hornets can begin approximately 36 months after contract award. 

Over the past 36 months, Boeing IDS has signed long-term partnership agreements with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, Tata Industries, and Larson and Toubro. Boeings release announces that: If the F/A-18IN Super Hornet is selected, these companies and others are expected to play a significant role as Boeing transfers some production and assembly to India.

Feb 26/08: The Indian government has extended the date of submission for technical and commercial bids for the MMRCA program from March 3/08 to April 28/08, while the deadline for offset bids has been extended from May until August 2008. Defense News."

India&#8217;s MMRCA Fighter Competition


----------



## ejaz007

*Global Giants Bid for Indian Fighter Deal*
By PRATAP CHAKRAVARTY, AGENCE FRANCE-PRESSE 
Published: 28 Apr 12:03 EDT (08:03 GMT)

NEW DELHI - Global aviation giants on April 28 submitted bids to sell 126 warplanes to India - the world's richest fighter aircraft deal worth $12 billion.

Six aeronautical companies from Russia, the United States and Europe offered their proposals to the Indian defense ministry well before an official deadline ended, the companies said.

U.S.-based Lockheed Martin said its proposals, which run over 10,000 pages, describe an upgraded version of the F-16 fighter jet.

"The F-16IN is a unique configuration of the F-16, designed to address the requirements specified in India's request for proposals," said Orville Prins, a Lockheed Martin vice president.

"Our proposal also represents a long-term partnership between the air forces of India and the United States and between Indian industry and the F-16 industry team," he added.

Seattle-based Boeing, which is offering F-18 Superhornets, said it submitted its 7,000-page bid on April 24.

"One of the concerns here in India is the cost of owning and maintaining combat fighters over their lifetime," said Vivek Lall, a vice president in Boeing's military wing.

"The Super Hornet offers a very attractive life-cycle-cost dynamic, since the fighter won't need a scheduled visit to a maintenance depot until it has clocked a minimum of 6,000 hours of flying time, and even well beyond that," he said in statement.

The European Aeronautic Defense and Space Company (EADS), in its 7,000-page submission pushed the Typhoon Eurofighter, saying scores of air forces were flying the multi-role aircraft.

EADS suffered a setback in December when India scrapped a $600 million deal for 197 military helicopters from Eurocopter - an unit of the consortium.

Bernhard Gerwert, CEO of EADS' military wing said that the company was ready to meet Indian deadlines.

The Indian air force contract includes outright purchase of 18 war jets by 2012 with another 108 of the same planes to be built in India.

India also has an option to buy 64 more such jets.

Russian manufacturers of MiG-35 and MiG-29, as well as Sweden's Saab, which is hawking its Gripen fighter, and French Dassault, which constructs the Rafale and Mirage, also handed over bids to the Indian authorities.

Dassault has promised to supply 40 Rafale jets on a fast-track basis as part of the deal, while Gripen is offering larger technology transfers.

The bids were scheduled to be opened later April 28 for technical evaluation.

Army commanders meanwhile began reviewing India's arms purchase laws which stipulate that foreign firms selling products worth $600 million or more must re-invest 50 percent of the amount to build local manufacturing capacity.

New Delhi introduced this clause into all its big defense deals in 2003 as a way of protecting itself from non-delivery and to boost the domestic arms industry.

"The commanders' conference which began today is discussing the merits and de-merits of the policy before it goes for a final revision in June," a ministry official said.

New Delhi called for the war jet bids in August last year as the air force's operational fighter fleet plunged to a low of 576 aircraft, from nearly 750 in early 2000. 

Global Giants Bid for Indian Fighter Deal - Defense News


----------



## sohailbutt

"US company offers key radar technology to India
El Segundo (California) (PTI): Indian Air Force will get access to cutting-edge radar technology, as permitted by the US government, if it decides to buy Boeing F-18 Superhornets under its global tender for 126 combat aircraft, American space and airborne systems company Raytheon has said. 

"We are willing to support Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar technology transfer up to the level the US government allows us," said Dave Goold from Raytheon's F-18 Business Development, Tactical Airbone Systems. 

"The technology transfer, though likely to be limited, would meet the requirements of IAF. Our proposal will be compliant with the request for proposal (RFP) issued by IAF for the 126 combat aircraft," he said. 

The powerful AESA radar lends an edge to the F-18 by increasing its air-to-air detection and tracking range, apart from enhancing its air to ground targeting capabilities. The cutting-edge AESA radar technology has been allowed by the US to be transferred only to Australia till now. 

Raytheon has partnered with the defence wing of aerospace giant Boeing's F-18 multi-role ground fighter which is being pitched as an ideal solution to IAF's future requirements. 

Earlier, Boeing Integrated Defence System (IDS) representative John Salas said the company has plan to sell anti-ship missile Harpoon and long-range precision missile to India. Both the systems are integrated with the F-18 fighters."

MONEY TALKS!!!!


----------



## Energon

^^^This should obviously come of no surprise. The Russians and the Europeans have already made offers to either co-develop or arrange ToT on AESA radars. The American companies have to match the offer or risk losing out to their competitors given that India is adamant about tech procurement.

India from what I understand has a good track record of not violating ToT and/or production license agreements, making it worthwhile for the manufacturers to be in business with India.

This is a really stiff competition. I was almost sure that the Eurofighter was out of the competition when they suddenly came back strong with the offer to induct India into the consortium. Boeing however seems to be hot on their trails, and given their success in obtaining the contract for the LCA project their outlook seems very good in the MRCA competition at the moment.

From a purely technological point of view, Rafale is still the best option; however this tender IMO has more to do with geopolitics than it does with simply hardware procurement. Either way, India will end up with a top of the line fighter.


----------



## vish

Ok sorry if Im being naïve but the IAF initially wanted to go for the Mirage and this being a $10Bn+ contract why doesnt the IAF establish an assembly line for the Mirage (upgraded with the latest avionics) or is that the costs of such a move are too high or may be the IAF has gotten over its love for Mirage can anybody clear my doubts...


----------



## ejaz007

This is the latest on defenseindustrydaily.com. I have only copied and pasted the latest update.

*May 5/08:* More details concerning the Boeing/Raytheon Super Hornet offer appear in Indias press. According to Boeings F-18 programme manager for India Mike Rietz, Boeings offset program involves a 4-phase effort. 

Phase 0 supplies 18 fully assembled Block II Super Hornets. 
Phase 1 and 2 will deliver 54 aircraft as partial assemblies , and would begin within 54 months of the contracts start date. 
Phase 1 supplies as 1,800 parts and 300 tools for assembly by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. in India. 
Phase 2 supplies HAL with 17,000 parts and over 1,000 tools for assembly.
The final 54 aircraft of Phase 3 would have the entire range of the airframes 30,000 parts built in India, with the last aircraft delivered by 2020.

With respect to radar technology transfer, Raytheons Dave Goold states the obvious when he says that Our response has been fully compliant with the IAF request for proposal (RFP). However, the extent of technology transfer would be dependent on the permission we receive from the US government. The issue is under discussion. If technology transfer is limited by the government, this could result in AN/APG-79 radars being supported in India but manufactured entirely in the USA. The question is whether that would disqualify the Boeing bid outright or force a shift back to earlier APG-73 radars. The extent of radar technology transfer is reportedly set at 60% in Indias RFP.

India&#8217;s MMRCA Fighter Competition

*Any ways by the year 2020 even the latest super hornet won't be the latest.
Regards,*


----------



## PakSniper

OMG! This decision making is still going on? And I'm almost done for summer break


----------



## Janbaz

PakSniper said:


> OMG! This decision making is still going on? And I'm almost done for summer break



Maybe after you get through the summer barbecues, a descion will be made!


----------



## vish

PakSniper said:


> OMG! This decision making is still going on? And I'm almost done for summer break



Welcome to the Indian Procurement Methodology... "we might get it someday"...


----------



## nitesh

Check this news
The Hindu : International / India & World : EADS invites India to join Eurofighter upgrade

*EADS invites India to join Eurofighter upgrade*

Sandeep Dikshit
European aviation giant sweetens offer for IAF mega tender
MUNICH: Bidding for the mega tender for 126 fighter aircraft, the European aviation giant EADS has sweetened its offer by inviting India to become the fifth country and the first outside Europe to join the ongoing upgrade of Eurofighter aircraft.

EADS is also prepared to involve India in its supersonic jet trainer development programme as well as other futuristic projects such as unmanned aerial and undersea vehicles.

&#8220;India would be interested to jump into these. This is one topic that would be discussed with respect to offsets,&#8221; said EADS officials.

Offsets are a crucial component of the over $ 10 billion mega tender floated by the Indian Air Force (IAF) and the six competitors are conjuring new avenues to ensure that 50 per cent of the contract value is generated within India.

The normal offset value is 30 per cent for big contracts but Defence Minister A.K. Antony insisted that the percentage be hiked to 50 so that the Indian aviation industry becomes more sophisticated and advanced.

&#8220;We are in the build-up for phase II of the Eurofighter programme. It will include new equipment and continue to be dynamic. It might be interesting for Indian companies to jump in at phase II and III,&#8221; senior EADS official Christian Albert told visiting newspersons at the company&#8217;s new Manching plant on the outskirts of Munich.

EADS cited the example of Spain which has benefited by becoming the fourth country to join the Eurofighter development project.

In a production process that is unique in the world, the central fuselage and the right wing is made in Germany, the left wing in Spain and other vital components sourced from the U.K. and Italy.

This process would make it easy for the company to seamlessly source the assembly line to India, something other countries would find it difficult to emulate, suggest company officials.

When Spain joined the programme, it only had the design capability for propeller and jet aircraft. It was also &#8220;very poor&#8221; in engine manufacturing. After entering the Eurofighter programme, Spain has boosted its aviation capability considerably and 90 per cent of the money is spent in the country itself. The skill of its workers and engineers has also increased.

&#8220;This encourages us to invite you,&#8221; observes Dr. Albert.

Later, in the basement of a test facility with Eurofighters roaring overhead, test pilot Heinz Spolgen pointed out how the plane&#8217;s cockpit was the best in business.

With 80 per cent of the single pilot&#8217;s work devoted to weapons control, Wing Commander Spolgen points out that it is vital for the pilot to be comfortable with the plane&#8217;s flying characteristics.

&#8220;The working place is very good because it is designed for the pilots by the pilots. The cockpit&#8217;s controls have been designed after taking inputs from pilots who have flown a variety of American, European and even Soviet-era planes. Therefore the cockpit is more advanced and user-friendly,&#8221; he explains.


----------



## BATMAN

^^Nitesh, How do you relate this 'the hindu' invitation news to Indian buying fighter jets?


----------



## BATMAN

vish said:


> Welcome to the Indian Procurement Methodology... "we might get it someday"...


----------



## Energon

BATMAN said:


> ^^Nitesh, How do you relate this 'the hindu' invitation news to Indian buying fighter jets?


The EADS offer to induct India into the Eurofighter consortium is contingent upon their winning the MRCA bid for the 126 aircrafts.


----------



## BATMAN

Energon said:


> The EADS offer to induct India into the Eurofighter consortium is contingent upon their winning the MRCA bid for the 126 aircrafts.



EADS must be out of their mind selling 126 Typhoons and weaopns for 10billion USD 
I think in such circumstances Indians should not waist a moment and buy Typhoons without with or without other perks.


----------



## nitesh

BATMAN said:


> ^^Nitesh, How do you relate this 'the hindu' invitation news to Indian buying fighter jets?


I am trying to point out the salesmanship going for getting this deal. And the point is only Boeing and Europenas are making such noises. French Russians, Lockheed Martin and Saab have either given up or just waiting for the right time to open there cards.


----------



## Keysersoze

BATMAN said:


> EADS must be out of their mind selling 126 Typhoons and weaopns for 10billion USD
> I think in such circumstances Indians should not waist a moment and buy Typhoons without with or without other perks.



Dude I doubt thats the price they would get that number of planes for. No one else seems to have realised that.


----------



## nitesh

BATMAN said:


> EADS must be out of their mind selling 126 Typhoons and weaopns for 10billion USD
> I think in such circumstances Indians should not waist a moment and buy Typhoons without with or without other perks.



The RFP states that only 18 planes should be delivered in flyaway condition, rest all to be manufactured in India. So the cost of planes will come down drastically. The only point here is how much T0T they or for the matter any other vendor is ready to offer.


----------



## BATMAN

nitesh said:


> The RFP states that only 18 planes should be delivered in flyaway condition, rest all to be manufactured in India. So the cost of planes will come down drastically. The only point here is how much T0T they or for the matter any other vendor is ready to offer.



In that case, you have to wait for another 6-8 years till the remaining 108 are produced.
If I remember correctly recently, Saudis bought 72 typhoons for 20 billion and by that calculation your fly away 18 should cost 5billion and you are saying that 108 typhoons can be built in India with only 5 billion!
In your opinion what will make such big difference in cost of production?


----------



## Neo

BATMAN said:


> In that case, you have to wait for another 6-8 years till the remaining 108 are produced.
> If I remember correctly recently, Saudis bought 72 typhoons for 20 billion and by that calculation your fly away 18 should cost 5billion and you are saying that 108 typhoons can be built in India with only 5 billion!
> In your opinion what will make such big difference in cost of production?



Batman,

Saudi $20+ billion deal includes full maintenance and upgrades by EADS, purchase of hardware, i.e. armed jets is worth $8-9 billion only.
Unlik KSA India has the infrastructure to maintain the Typhoon, the deal would be much cheaper.


----------



## Khalsa

EADS May Move Airbus Production To India







The European aircraft consortium, EADS, has said that it may start producing in India so as to be closer to its customers here. The Company Chairman, Mr Louis Gallois, told newspersons at the ongoing Berlin airshow that if EADS wanted to sell in India, it would also have to look at producing here.

The statement comes in the wake of Airbus maker, EADS participating in two ongoing Indian defence procurement programmes &#8212; the 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft being acquired by the Indian Air Force and 150 helicopters for the Indian Army.

The terms of both contracts specify that the eventual winner will be allowed to ship the first batch of aircraft from the supplier&#8217;s manufacturing base, but will eventually have to shift the manufacturing capability to India.

Officials feel that any decision to move production to India could be beneficial to the European consortium. &#8220;Currently, most of EADS production is in the Euro zone, while payments are generally made in dollars, which is not very favourable due to the exchange rate fluctuations these days. Besides, if the company wins any of the orders in India, it can claim that it is already sourcing from here and seek adjustments against the offset clause that is mandatory in Government contracts,&#8221; an official said.
Call for tie-up

EADS is offering the Typhoon aircraft to the Indian Air Force and AS 550 C3 Fennec helicopter to the Indian Army. The European consortium has also invited India to become a partner of the Eurofighter programme under which the Typhoon aircraft is being produced.

Meanwhile, the Defence Minister, Mr A.K. Antony, has said that companies planning to sell major defence products to India must be prepared to part with technology.

Speaking to newspersons at the airshow, Mr Antony said India would like to have fruitful defence cooperation with countries which are prepared to transfer technology and are interested in co-designing, co-development and co-production of defence products.


----------



## nitesh

BATMAN said:


> In that case, you have to wait for another 6-8 years till the remaining 108 are produced.
> If I remember correctly recently, Saudis bought 72 typhoons for 20 billion and by that calculation your fly away 18 should cost 5billion and you are saying that 108 typhoons can be built in India with only 5 billion!
> In your opinion what will make such big difference in cost of production?



You see that europeans are following trenaches model for typhoon. Like treancahe 1, treanche 2 the saudi deal include upgrade of planes also to latest versions, maintenance of the planes etc. While in India scenario, the production will be done in India. In this way the major cost for companies is giving the techs they developed. Because production and maintenance will be taken care by India. They will benefit from getting JVs etc so that they can move there production to cheap destination like India.


----------



## BATMAN

nitesh said:


> You see that europeans are following trenaches model for typhoon. Like treancahe 1, treanche 2 the saudi deal include upgrade of planes also to latest versions, maintenance of the planes etc.


i doubt that maintenece is included in the cost of Saudi deal. Any way it means Saudi order was bigger than indian and they did not made as much fuss of technology transfer.
what ever model of sale EADS adopt, all defence circles will definately question if indians get 126 jets at the cost of 10billion.


> While in India scenario, the production will be done in India. In this way the major cost for companies is giving the techs they developed. Because production and maintenance will be taken care by India. They will benefit from getting JVs etc so that *they can move there production to cheap destination like India*.


EADS will not be benifited if production is moved to india, it will only benifit india in developing its own delta wing, later.
My question is what makes indian production costs so less that price comes down to more than half?


----------



## nitesh

BATMAN said:


> i doubt that maintenece is included in the cost of Saudi deal. Any way it means Saudi order was bigger than indian and they did not made as much fuss of technology transfer.
> what ever model of sale EADS adopt, all defence circles will definately question if indians get 126 jets at the cost of 10billion.


The saudi deal is complete life cycle cost. And if they dont make a fuss about ToT its problem of them, for asking the ToT you need to have some infrastructure in place which they dont have. So there is no point in asking about it. Well EADS is free to not bid for MRCA if they dont want to give the planes in the cost India has asked for, but going by media reports they seem to be quite interested.



> EADS will not be benifited if production is moved to india, it will only benifit india in developing its own delta wing, later.
> My question is what makes indian production costs so less that price comes down to more than half?



How it will help india in developing delta wing? LCA has delta wings.

Simply by going the salary comparison. Indian salaries are definitely very less as compared to europeans. And dear whenever you buy something in bulk the dealer will reduce its margin to keep the customer happy about the cost. Its simple


----------



## Khalsa

Boeing Expects IAF M-MRCA Contract Decision By 2010

Indian government will decide on its plan to buy 126 new fighter jets for its air force "no sooner" than 2010, Boeing Co.'s defense chief Jim Albaugh said today. Boeing, Lockheed Martin Corp., Saab AB, MIG Corp., Dassault Aviation SA and European Aeronautic, Defence & Space Co., the parent of Airbus SAS, submitted bids to the government on April 28 for the contract. The order may be worth $11 billion, the biggest for combat planes in 15 years in India.

Asia, which contributes about $2 billion a year in defense sales for Chicago-based Boeing, will account for 50 percent of international sales at the defense unit in five to 10 years, the company said. India is spending more to buy military aircraft, helicopters and weapons as neighboring Pakistan buys aircraft from the U.S. and China develops its own fighter planes. International sales accounted for 7 percent of total revenue at the defense unit five years ago, and now accounts for about 13 percent, Albaugh said.

The company is protesting a U.S. Air Force award of a $35 billion aerial-refueling tanker program to Northrop Grumman Corp. and the parent of Airbus SAS, saying that changes made midstream in the contest unfairly favored its European rival. The jury is "still out" on the tanker decision, Albaugh told reporters in Singapore today. "There is going to be plenty of opportunities to sell 767 tankers in the event that the protest we have is sustained and there is a re competition and we're fortunate enough to win that re competition," he said.

Boeing fell 0.02 percent to $82.11 in New York Stock Exchange trading yesterday. The shares have declined 6.1 percent this year.


----------



## BATMAN

Khalsa said:


> Boeing Expects IAF M-MRCA Contract Decision By 2010



This was expected and but indians refused to believe. they kept spreading new time frames on every forum and discussion, just to keep the bidders hanging in stimulate a competition of best offer.
will some one guess how many years now indians started spreading the news?


----------



## BATMAN

nitesh said:


> The saudi deal is complete life cycle cost.


Are you saying that they have already paid for the future maintenances?


> And if they don't make a fuss about ToT its problem of them, for asking the ToT you need to have some infrastructure in place which they dont have. So there is no point in asking about it.


Saudis have the infrastructure or not but first it has to be seen, is it worth having? untill unless it is a matter of national prestige! As I suppose is the case always with indians.



> Well EADS is free to not bid for MRCA if they dont want to give the planes in the cost India has asked for, but going by media reports they seem to be quite interested.


I don't think so, EADS is least interested, infect the consortium countries are looking at each other that who will take the lead and eventually bear the cost of bidding.
I think more important is indian attitude, demands and interests.
What is clear is that india need an ally who can go hand in hand with india in war senario with Pakistan and compliment indian military all round within this 10billion. The only natural ally pop up is US.


> How it will help india in developing delta wing? LCA has delta wings.


 LCA has delta wings does not means that they have correct design. Infect aerodynamics of LCA has been a big area of concern for its developers. Recently they have worked out a lot on the frame to reduce drag and add maneuverability to mig21 level but failed miserably.
This is one of the biggest reasons of dely, 'the national prestige' other wise principally its *US*, in bold.
india need some one who can help them in LCA at the same time sell them top of the line fighters with t.o.t and a partnership for new fighter programme.
READ


> Simply by going the salary comparison. Indian salaries are definitely very less as compared to europeans. And dear whenever you buy something in bulk the dealer will reduce its margin to keep the customer happy about the cost. Its simple


Even if indians decided to work free of cost they cannot bring the price so down that they are able to fly away with 126 typhoon with 10billion.
Typhoon is way too expensive for nations like india, See Saudis came with money and got what they wished.


----------



## shrivatsa

BATMAN said:


> Typhoon is way too expensive for nations like India, See Saudis came with money and got what they wished.



Oh yes too expensive for countries like India phew.


----------



## shrivatsa

BATMAN said:


> Typhoon is way too expensive for nations like India, See Saudis came with money and got what they wished.



Oh yes too expensive for countries like India phew.


----------



## nitesh

BATMAN said:


> Are you saying that they have already paid for the future maintenances?



Yes paid for maintenance and by the way what is "future maintenance" you don't maintain a plane or whatever on the first day itself.



> Saudis have the infrastructure or not but first it has to be seen, is it worth having? untill unless it is a matter of national prestige! As I suppose is the case always with indians.



r you trying to say that it is good to have yourself dependent in case of conflict to other country



> I don't think so, EADS is least interested, infect the consortium countries are looking at each other that who will take the lead and eventually bear the cost of bidding.



end of the day they have quoted for it and please check previous posts that they are trying there level best to win the deal. Check this link, and stop talking in air
The Hindu : International / India & World : EADS invites India to join Eurofighter upgrade



> I think more important is indian attitude, demands and interests.
> What is clear is that india need an ally who can go hand in hand with india in war senario with Pakistan and compliment indian military all round within this 10billion. The only natural ally pop up is US.



Well agree here that this deal will also reflect indian mentality towards future alliances.



> LCA has delta wings does not means that they have correct design. Infect aerodynamics of LCA has been a big area of concern for its developers. Recently they have worked out a lot on the frame to reduce drag and add maneuverability to mig21 level but failed miserably.
> This is one of the biggest reasons of dely, 'the national prestige' other wise principally its *US*, in bold.
> india need some one who can help them in LCA at the same time sell them top of the line fighters with t.o.t and a partnership for new fighter programme.



LCA need help in kaveri engine and it is accepted that some foreign vendor will be invited to sort out the problem and regarding LCA first read this
The Hindu News Update Service
again please stop talking in air.



> Even if indians decided to work free of cost they cannot bring the price so down that they are able to fly away with 126 typhoon with 10billion.
> Typhoon is way too expensive for nations like india, See Saudis came with money and got what they wished.



well prove that it is impossible to come down to 10 billion dollars with some sort of logic behind it just dont talk in air. yes saudis got they wished for and hope India will get what it is wishing for


----------



## JEFF

BATMAN said:


> Saudis have the infrastructure or not but first it has to be seen, is it worth having? untill unless it is a matter of national prestige! As I suppose is the case always with indians.



I don't understand how did you manage to interlinked national prestige with liceance production because India has been licance producing the aircrafts since decades and this is not the first time. I think you should be much more conservative in interlinking.




BATMAN said:


> I don't think so, EADS is least interested, infect the consortium countries are looking at each other that who will take the lead and eventually bear the cost of bidding.



Pls tell me how does EADS is least interested?, infact MRCA bidding is considered as a major event to earn reputation in future fighter jet market. Jet that will win this bid would eventually considered as a potential product for the future sale to all other countries. And hence your verdict of EADS is least interested is outrightly invalid.



BATMAN said:


> I think more important is indian attitude, demands and interests.



Offcourse, this what MRCA bid is all about. You should first secure all this elements before going for purchases of something from aborad. Just because delays are being caused and bidders are getting excessively uneasy with tedious procedure of MRCA, then I am sorry it is not our problem.



BATMAN said:


> What is clear is that india need an ally who can go hand in hand with india in war senario with Pakistan and compliment indian military all round within this 10billion. The only natural ally pop up is US.



I don't think apart from Russia, anybody would subscribed to your thoughts.




BATMAN said:


> LCA has delta wings does not means that they have correct design.



Delta wing is one among the successful designs been adopted in number of fighter jet by every other western, european countries. I don't understand what did you seen so much incorrect in delta wings.



BATMAN said:


> Infect aerodynamics of LCA has been a big area of concern for its developers. Recently they have worked out a lot on the frame to reduce drag and add maneuverability to mig21 level but failed miserably.



Kindly provide the link where your eyes has seen failure of LCA's designers to bring its performance in accordance with Mig-21 maneurverablity? I think this is nothing but your any other bluff.



BATMAN said:


> This is one of the biggest reasons of dely, 'the national prestige' other wise principally its *US*, in bold.
> india need some one who can help them in LCA at the same time sell them top of the line fighters with t.o.t and a partnership for new fighter programme.



India never comes and admitted that it need both purchase and help in domestic version of fighter jet from MRCA's bidders. Rather it was the bidders themselves who invited HAL to have some consultation in fast track development of LCA and not design. 



BATMAN said:


> Even if indians decided to work free of cost they cannot bring the price so down that they are able to fly away with 126 typhoon with 10billion.



Pls do bring the premise upon which you have concluded this platitude.



BATMAN said:


> Typhoon is way too expensive for nations like india, See Saudis came with money and got what they wished.



Oh how did you manage to conclude pricing pattern for India upon Saudis deal? especially when India has followed its 50% of offset clause if ever you heard about it.


----------



## JEFF

stricker said:


> I dont know why india is spending too much on MRCA for a new aircraft.
> India should go for F-35.



F-35 is not an aircraft US would like to sell to India, even if it willing then only it would come out with lots of strings attached.



stricker said:


> They have already a good track record in flying SU-30MKI.
> They should simply upgrade to EWs, AESA rador and avionics and AAMs from US. This will be first aircraft of Russian, French , Israel and American JVs used by IAF.



Concept of the MRCA is all about Medium weight aircraft whereas MKI is of heavyweight catagory aircraft and hence we can't do the above because of expensive maintance of MKI.



stricker said:


> Nothing can beat this except F-22.



This is nothing but your dillution.



stricker said:


> For future order some F-35. simply dont waste time in evaluating for 3 yrs and induction at 2014. by that time F-35 will be ready.
> US will happy to provide F-35 to Inida.



Answer as above.



stricker said:


> Estimation at 2015.
> 
> PAK-FA - 30
> F-35 - 30
> SU-30MKI with AESA - 250
> 
> INDIA will be only country operating both PAK-FA and F-35.



Good ambition but whereas your 126 MRCA Su-30MKI goes because we have already order 240 MKI?


----------



## nitesh

stricker said:


> I dont know why india is spending too much on MRCA for a new aircraft.
> India should go for F-35.



US is the country having highest stake in that project has they offered it to India? Or you are thinking that india is going to snatch it from them. 



> They have already a good track record in flying SU-30MKI.
> *They should simply upgrade to EWs, AESA rador and avionics and AAMs *from US. This will be first aircraft of Russian, French , Israel and American JVs used by IAF.



Is upgrades are so simpler to do? Please put a little bit of thought berfore writing anything.



> Nothing can beat this except F-22.


Can you please tell the logic behind this conclusion.



> For future order some F-35. simply dont waste time in evaluating for 3 yrs and induction at 2014. by that time F-35 will be ready.
> *US will happy to provide F-35 to Inida.*


Can you please provide a link that US has offered f35 to India, or atleast with an indication that they are happy to provide F35 to india



> Estimation at 2015.
> 
> *PAK-FA - 30*
> F-35 - 30
> SU-30MKI with AESA - 250
> 
> INDIA will be only country operating both PAK-FA and F-35.



PAK-FA has to enter service by 2015 to be very optimistic, how you had reach the magical figure of 30.

And can you please also give a magical figure of how many f35 india should buy to enlighten us.


----------



## Imran Khan

stricker said:


> I dont know why india is spending too much on MRCA for a new aircraft.
> India should go for F-35.
> 
> They have already a good track record in flying SU-30MKI.
> They should simply upgrade to EWs, AESA rador and avionics and AAMs from US. This will be first aircraft of Russian, French , Israel and American JVs used by IAF.
> Nothing can beat this except F-22.
> 
> For future order some F-35. simply dont waste time in evaluating for 3 yrs and induction at 2014. by that time F-35 will be ready.
> US will happy to provide F-35 to Inida.
> 
> Estimation at 2015.
> 
> PAK-FA - 30
> F-35 - 30
> SU-30MKI with AESA - 250
> 
> INDIA will be only country operating both PAK-FA and F-35.



mr.come out of dream you think imposible if india today order f-35 will come in india 2017 or more late


----------



## nitesh

stricker said:


> US offers high tech F-35 fighters to India



Hey good link, but this is quite old news. There is no significant talks about it after this. Do you have any info that Lockheed Martin's bid in response to RFP includes this offer?


----------



## Imran Khan

but first they will finish old orders of f-35

USA navy-480 USAF-1763 US MARINE CROPS 480

UK 138 UK NAVY 60

Italy 109

Turkey 100

Australia 100

ISRAIL 100

Norway [more then] 60

Denmark 48

then if some one order they will get f-35 after all this .also 3100 units they produce for alleys nations.


----------



## AgNoStiC MuSliM

*Threads merged.

All MRCA News and discussion in this thread please.*


----------



## TALWAR

imran khan said:


> but first they will finish old orders of f-35
> 
> USA navy-480 USAF-1763 US MARINE CROPS 480
> 
> UK 138 UK NAVY 60
> 
> Italy 109
> 
> Turkey 100
> 
> Australia 100
> 
> ISRAIL 100
> 
> Norway [more then] 60
> 
> Denmark 48
> 
> then if some one order they will get f-35 after all this .also 3100 units they produce for alleys nations.



Procurements are not first in first out, like distributing rations!
The delivery dates are signed in the contract.


----------



## Imran Khan

TALWAR said:


> Procurements are not first in first out, like distributing rations!
> The delivery dates are signed in the contract.



who india get before they pay alot of $ before 10 years not for late there orders.


----------



## p2prada

The Americans plan on manufacturing atleast 200 F-35s a year by 2015(3 years after the first F-35 is out). They plan on inducting 3000 F-35s for themselves and help construct 1000-1500 more for their NATO allies and other potential clients.

In case India opts for the F-35 (fat chance), we will only ask for delivery of a squadron sized package(13-18 aircrafts) and manufacture the rest in India. This will obviously come with an offset clause.


----------



## nitesh

p2prada said:


> The Americans plan on manufacturing atleast 200 F-35s a year by 2015(3 years after the first F-35 is out). They plan on inducting 3000 F-35s for themselves and help construct 1000-1500 more for their NATO allies and other potential clients.
> 
> In case India opts for the F-35 (fat chance), we will only ask for delivery of a squadron sized package(13-18 aircrafts) and manufacture the rest in India. This will obviously come with an offset clause.


But isn't Lockheed Martin is pitching for F16I. There is no official confirmation that F35 has been offered to India (Read as given in response to RFP).
And will USA give the ToT for its latest tech as ToT. Very very low chance.
Its mere speculation for India the 5th generation planes will be PAK-FA and later on MCA will join.


----------



## nitesh

news about red flag. seems like a good time for IAF to evaluate rafale in live.

IndianExpress.com :: IAF Su-30s to fly in US skies with Korean, French warjets

IAF Su-30s to fly in US skies with Korean, French warjets
Manu Pubby
Posted online: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 at 0057 hrs

New Delhi, June 30: India&#8217;s participation at the Red Flag exercise at Nellis airbase of the US Air Force - seen as a milestone in its military engagement with the US &#8212; will be a multi-nation event with *elite air units from France and South Korea* scheduled to participate in what is often termed as one of the world&#8217;s toughest aerial combat training exercise.

*While IAF will be fielding its frontline Su 30 MKI fighters for the 11-day event &#8212; the first appearance of the Russian-origin fighter in North America - France will pose a lofty challenge to them with its latest Rafale multi-role fighters for the exercise.*

India will also have its first encounter with South Korean military forces with the country&#8217;s Air Force expected to field six F-15 K fighters. This would also mark South Korea&#8217;s first presence at the exercise.
Besides a fleet of six Su 30 MKI aircraft, IAF is expected to send an IL 76 transport aircraft and an IL 78 mid-air refuler to the exercise to be held from August 11-22.

*However, enthusiasts, who were looking forward to a contest between the Su 30 MKI and the F 22, may be disappointed, as the USAF has not yet planned to send in its fifth generation fighter for the exercise.*

The American force is expected to comprise F-16 and F-15 fighters, electronic warfare aircraft, refulers and C 130 and C 17 transport aircraft.
India&#8217;s participation at Red Flag, which has been described as &#8220;one of the most sought-after exercises in the world&#8221; by Air Chief Marshal FH Major, is expected to cost close to Rs 100 crore, an amount that has already been cleared by the MoD.
&#8220;The exercise is required, as it is the best way to learn from the most modern Air Forces in the world. The idea is to learn and imbibe the doctrine that will enhance the way we think of using airpower,&#8221; an IAF officer said.
While IAF had been pushing for participation at the exercise since last year, it got into controversy after the Left termed it as an example of India&#8217;s growing military ties with the US.
IAF, meanwhile, considers its participation as a great learning opportunity, as the exercise is at present open to only NATO countries or very close US allies.


----------



## nitesh

Interesting article about MRCA, good read

Can We Save the RAF? Or Does Unilateral Disarmament Have To Be So Expensive?


----------



## nitesh

Reinvestment offers submitted for IAF combat jet order- Airlines / Aviation-Transportation-News By Industry-News-The Economic Times

Reinvestment offers submitted for IAF combat jet order
4 Aug, 2008, 1931 hrs IST, PTI

NEW DELHI: *Three global aircraft majors on Monday submitted their industrial reinvestment offers as part of their bids for an Indian Air Force (IAF) order for 126 combat jets, with one company - EADS - reiterating its invitation to India to partner the future development of its Eurofighter Typhoon, one of the six jets in contention. 

US aerospace majors Boeing and Lockheed Martin also submitted their offset offers Monday.* The deal is worth $10 billion and 50 percent of this has to be reinvested in India as part of the offset obligations of the manufacturer that gets the IAF nod. 

EADS, Boeing and Lockheed Martin all said they were more than willing to discharge their offset obligations. 
"Earlier this year we invited India to become a member of the successful Eurofighter family. Today I want to repeat this message," Bernhard Gerwert, CEO of Military Air Systems, an integrated business unit of EADS Defence & Security, said in a statement. 

"We are already establishing the groundwork that will lead us to success in this large undertaking through early engagement of Indian industry, both public and private," said Vivek Lall, Boeing Integrated Defence Systems vice president and India country head. 

"Boeing's proposal firmly supports the Indian government's goal of a vibrant indigenous aerospace industry. It also foresees India playing a key role in enhancing Boeing's global competitiveness and growth through a series of strategic partnerships with Indian industries," a company statement said. 

"The Boeing Company has been, and will continue to be, a true partner to India," said Chris Chadwick, president of Boeing Military Aircraft. "To that end, our IP (industrial participation) proposal draws upon the company's vast pool of human talent, technical expertise and aerospace and defence resources, to both support India's defence modernization drive and to help spur growth of a world-class Indian aerospace industry," Chadwick added. 

Lockheed Martin said that as the world's "leading performer of successful offset programmes", it "has a long history of delivering on commitments. Lockheed Martin has established four F-16 production lines outside of the United States". 

"Lockheed Martin is committed to working with our industrial partners and Indian defence industry to develop long-term, high-value projects that bring technology and sustainable business to India," said Orville Prins, Lockheed Martin's business development vice president. 

"Partnering with Lockheed Martin provides India the opportunity to develop advanced defence technologies, manufacturing capabilities and defence systems. "Additionally, India will benefit by leveraging the strength of the F-16IN industrial team, which includes many of the world's largest and most innovative companies, all ready to work with Indian industry in developing world-class aerospace and defence technologies," Prins added. 

"No other operational multi role strike fighter in the world today will compare to the F-16IN proposed by Lockheed Martin," said Prins. "The F-16IN will be a unique configuration of the F-16, designed to address every requirement specified in India's RFP. The F16 is already the most reliable, maintainable, affordable and safest multi role fighter in the world. The F-16IN will be even better," he added.


----------



## ejaz007

This is the lates update on MRCA. Only update has been posted rest available on the web site:

*MMRCA: Updates and Developments*

*Aug 4/08:* The RFP responses are in, and are being evaluated. Indias Economic Times reports that 3 of the bidders have just submitted their companion industrial offset proposals: Boeing (F/A-18E/F), EADS (Eurofighter), and Lockheed Martin (F-16IN). 

Boeing said it would meet its obligations through a line up that includes 37 Indian partners in the public and private sectors. Lockheed Martin noted that it had already established 4 F-16 production lines outside the USA. EADS mentioned a fully-fledged response, but did not otherwise go into much detail; like Boeing, cooperation with its civilian arm (Airbus) is a near-certain component of their offer.

Industrial offset esponses from Dassault (Rafale), Gripen International (JAS-39NG), and Rosoboronexport (MiG-35) are reportedly still pending. They are also due in August.

*May 28/08:* EADS is quoted as inviting India to become the 5th country and the first outside Europe to become part of the Eurofighter consortium. The industrial example of Spains participation is used. The Hindus report adds that EADS is also prepared to involve India in its supersonic jet trainer development program (the stalled Mako project, which needs an external partner to move forward) as well as unmanned aerial and undersea vehicles.

India&#8217;s MMRCA Fighter Competition


----------



## blain2

A question for those who may know...what offsets can the Russians really offer? I am pretty certain that it can't be anything like what the American and Europeans can do.


----------



## nitesh

blain2 said:


> A question for those who may know...what offsets can the Russians really offer? I am pretty certain that it can't be anything like what the American and Europeans can do.



The Europeans and Americans are too pro active for MRCA but the saga going on behind the LCA consultancy doesn't sounds good for americans. The russian, french and swedes are quite about what they are up to. So need to wait and watch.


----------



## ashfaque

nitesh said:


> The Europeans and Americans are too pro active for MRCA but the saga going on behind the LCA consultancy doesn't sounds good for americans. The russian, french and swedes are quite about what they are up to. So need to wait and watch.



I hope you will keep watching for next few years. Indian politicians are most currupt and becoming dengerous for country too, they are not going to do anything which will not polarize their vote.


----------



## nitesh

ashfaque said:


> I hope you will keep watching for next few years. Indian politicians are most currupt and becoming dengerous for country too, they are not going to do anything which will not polarize their vote.



Ok so it can be put in this way, there is a lot of money involved in the deal. Hope you are getting the point.


----------



## IceCold

ashfaque said:


> I hope you will keep watching for next few years. Indian politicians are most currupt and becoming dengerous for country too, they are not going to do anything which will not polarize their vote.



Indian politicians maybe corrupt but not when it comes to national security. There are however delays as will be in any democratic and that too collation government as you have to take every one with you or else you can say goodbye to the support the thing that i hate most about democracy.


----------



## nitesh

IceCold said:


> Indian politicians maybe corrupt but not when it comes to national security. There are however delays as will be in any democratic and that too collation government as you have to take every one with you or else you can say goodbye to the support the thing that i hate most about democracy.



Sir your point is correct as more or less what ever government was in center broadly the policies were/are consistent not much of changes. But taking everyone together is a part of democracy nothing much can be done about it.


----------



## nitesh

» Field trial for multi-role aircraft by year-end - Thaindian News

New Delhi, Aug 7 (IANS) *The Indian Air Force (IAF) will conduct later this year field trials for the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) it intends purchasing. The scrutiny of the technical bids submitted by six vendors was on, IAF chief Air Chief Marshal Fali H. Major said Thursday. &#8220;MMRCA technical evaluation is going on in full flow. *The six vendors have submitted technical bids, *each consisting of 8,000 to 9,000 pages. It is really a nightmare to scrutinize the bids,&#8221; Major told reporters at the United Services Institution (USI) here.*

The deal is worth $10 billion and 50 percent of this has to be reinvested in India as part of the offset obligations of the manufacturer that gets the IAF nod.

Three global aircraft majors Monday submitted their industrial reinvestment offer as part of their bid for an Indian Air Force (IAF) order for the 126 combat jets, with one company - EADS - reiterating its invitation to India to partner the future development of its Eurofighter Typhoon, one of the six jets in contention.

US aerospace majors Boeing and Lockheed Martin also submitted their offset offers Monday.

The IAF had floated its request for proposal (RFP) last August and these are currently being evaluated, after which the aircraft will be put through field trials before the eventual winner is selected.

Apart from the Eurofighter Typhoon, the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, and the Lockheed Martin F-16, three other aircraft - the Swedish Gripen, the French Rafale and the Russian MiG-35 - are also in the fray. The other three manufacturers are yet to submit their offset offers.

EADS, Boeing and Lockheed Martin all said they were more than willing to discharge their offset obligations.

EADS, the European Aeronautic Defence and Space company, is a four-nation conglomerate of Germany, Italy, Spain and Britain.

Boeing said it would discharge its offsets obligations through &#8220;a formidable industrial line-up&#8221; that includes 16 leading aerospace and defence companies with combined revenues of over $454 billion, and its 37 Indian partners in the public and private sectors.


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## ejaz007

*MRCA Deal: Technical Bids Received, Indian Air Force to Conduct Field Trials in Q3, Q4 of 2008*
Dated 8/8/2008

The Indian Air Force (IAF) is all set to conduct field trials of the medium range multi role combat aircraft (MMRCA) for which it has requested competing bids from international vendors later this year. IAF chief, air chief marshal, Fali H Major, said "MMRCA technical evaluation is going on in full flow."

Request for Proposals (RFPs) were sought from six major international vendors who have submitted technical bids for one of the largest military aviation deals in Asia. "It is really a nightmare to scrutinize the bids," ACM Fali Major informed reporters at the United Services Institution (USI). At least 50 per cent of the deal, estimated to be worth at least US$11 billion and more over its lifetime, will have to be reinvested in India by a manufacturer as part of the offset obligations that are inbuilt into the contract.

Few manufacturers submitted their offset proposals on Monday (4th) or Tuesday (5th) with one company - EADS - emphasizing and reiterating its invitation to India to partner the future development of its Eurofighter Typhoon. The Typhoon is one of the six jets in contention along with the Russian MiG-35, the Swedish Saab Gripen JAS-39, French Dassault Rafale and American contenders, Boeing and Lockheed Martin with their F-18 Super Hornet and F-16 Falcon fighters.

American aviation giants Boeing and Lockheed Martin also submitted their offset offers on Monday.

MRCA Deal: Technical Bids Received, Indian Air Force to Conduct Field Trials in Q3, Q4 of 2008 | India Defence


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## nitesh

Guys check this:

The Mil & Aero Blog: Fibre Channel going strong in storage applications

*Fibre Channel databus products are having a resurgence,* says Jack Staub, chief executive officer of Critical I/O in Irvine, Calif.

Staub told me this during a conversation we had on high-speed I/O trends for the Technology Focus feature in the upcoming September edition of Military & Aerospace Electronics.

Staub says the resurgence "so to speak" is in storage applications for aircraft and ground bases, where large amounts of data are being acquired. "It's resurgent because in the past Fibre Channel was typically used more in network type applications," he adds. 

*"Fibre Channel has been broadly adopted throughout the F-18 platform," he says. It is used to connect into the data network for the AESA (active electronically scanned array) radar, he adds.*

*On the F-22 platform Lockheed Martin officials have made Fibre Channel a standard product, he continues.*


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## Contrarian

Fly-by-Light. We'v gone through this.


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## nitesh

malaymishra123 said:


> Fly-by-Light. We'v gone through this.



Sir, just trying to point out the sales man ship going behind the super bug


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## Contrarian

*Boeing 'authorized' to offer AESA radar with F/A-18 fighter*

New Delhi, Feb 17 (IANS) The US government has 'authorized' Boeing to offer a state-of-the-art radar with the F/A-18 Super Hornet fighter that is vying for an Indian Air Force (IAF) order for 126 multi-role combat aircraft, the company said Sunday.

However, whether or not the technology for the radar would also be transferred 'is an issue for the US government to decide', a Boeing official said.

He was clarifying remarks attributed earlier Sunday to Chris Chadwick, president of Precision Engagement and Mobility Systems of Boeing Integrated Defence Systems, that the technology for the AESA (Advanced Electronically Scanned Array) radar would also be transferred with that of the aircraft for licensed manufacture in India in case Boeing wins the IAF order.

The AESA radar enables the F-18 seamlessly shift into an AWACS (airborne warning and control system) mode while flying on a combat mission.

'I can confirm that we will be complying with all the requirements of the request for proposal (RFP) we have received from the Indian Air Force,' Chadwick told reporters earlier Sunday on the sidelines of the ongoing DEFEXPO-2008 international defence exposition here.

Transfer of technology and licensed manufacture in the country is mandated under India's Defence Procurement Procedure enunciated in 2006. This procedure is now being fine-tuned in relation to the offsets clause under which 30 percent of all defence deals worth over Rs.3 billion have to be re-invested in India.

In the case of the IAF order, however, the offsets obligation has been raised to 50 percent.

'We have readied a fully compliant proposal (on the IAF tender) and will submit this three days early (against the March 3 deadline),' Chadwick said.

'We are very well positioned to establish a long-term relationship with the Indian Air Force and the ministry of defence,' he added.

*Should Boeing win the IAF order, the aircraft would be supplied in four phases.

'In phase 0, we will supply 18 aircraft in fully assembled condition. In Phase 1, we will supply the aircraft in semi-knocked down condition with 1,800 parts and 300 tools,' said Mike Rietz, F-18 programme manager for India.

'In phase 2, the aircraft will come in completely knocked down condition with 17,000 parts and 1,000-plus tools. In phase 3, the aircraft and its entire range of 30,000 parts will be indigenously manufactured in India,' he added.

'In this way, we will gradually raise the level of technology that HAL (Hindustan Aircraft Ltd which will build the aircraft in India) will have to absorb,' Rietz explained.*

The delivery schedule means that 108 of the 126 aircraft will be assembled in India, roughly half of them with Boeing-supplied parts while the balance would be totally built in this country.

'The RFP lays down that the first aircraft is supplied within 36 months of the contract being signed and the 18th within 48 months. The 19th aircraft, the first to be assembled in India, will come within 54 months.

'Thereafter, there will be an incremental increase with the last aircraft to be delivered by 2020,' Rietz said.
Boeing 'authorized' to offer AESA radar with F/A-18 fighter - Yahoo! India News


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## nitesh

Somehow I am not comfortable with unkil's bird flying in Indian colors, cos of the boeing saga behind the consultancy of LCA.


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## Contrarian

Of the one thing i feel sure, is that no American aircraft will be selected for the MRCA. I maybe wrong, but i think it unlikely.


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## nitesh

Can't agree with u more sir, now enough orders are on unkil's hand. Time to look away.


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## nitesh

Sir, seems like Boeing is out and seems they will make this as an excuse to keep american companies out from MRCA competition:

European jet makers may replace Boeing in Tejas project - Corporate News - livemint.com


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## Energon

nitesh said:


> Sir, seems like Boeing is out and seems they will make this as an excuse to keep american companies out from MRCA competition:
> 
> European jet makers may replace Boeing in Tejas project - Corporate News - livemint.com


One is independent of the other.


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## su-47

Energon said:


> One is independent of the other.



its not actually. MRCA and LCA are linked. Its the delay in LCA development that resulted in the need for MRCA. LCA is going to be IAF's backbone for the next few decades. Anyone offering to strengthen that backbone obviously stands a better chance of snagging MRCA.


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## Energon

su-47 said:


> its not actually. MRCA and LCA are linked. Its the delay in LCA development that resulted in the need for MRCA. LCA is going to be IAF's backbone for the next few decades. Anyone offering to strengthen that backbone obviously stands a better chance of snagging MRCA.


?? I have no idea how any of this relates to the situation at hand. Boeing was providing direct R&D input into the LCA, for which the US government mandates EUP in the event of a third party sale. The F-16 and the F-18 are participating in a bilateral defense procurement deal in which there are no third party sales involved.

If there was an Indian defence manufacturer on the cutting edge of R&D, they too would have similar constraints put upon them by the government who would want to ensure that critical technology does not fall into the hands of adversarial nations.

France sells its hardware to most power blocs around the world which reduces the headache of compromising sensitive technology to an enemy.


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## nitesh

Energon said:


> ?? I have no idea how any of this relates to the situation at hand. Boeing was providing direct R&D input into the LCA, for which the US government mandates EUP in the event of a third party sale. The F-16 and the F-18 are participating in a bilateral defense procurement deal in which there are no third party sales involved.
> 
> If there was an Indian defence manufacturer on the cutting edge of R&D, they too would have similar constraints put upon them by the government who would want to ensure that critical technology does not fall into the hands of adversarial nations.
> 
> France sells its hardware to most power blocs around the world which reduces the headache of compromising sensitive technology to an enemy.



Mate, the help was asked for the consultancy in opening the flight envelope for LCA testing, and if this comes with a restriction of sales of LCA or some other restrictions, better to go alone


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## nitesh

Energon said:


> One is independent of the other.



I think this will be a good enough excuse


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## IceCold

malaymishra123 said:


> Of the one thing i feel sure, is that no American aircraft will be selected for the MRCA. I maybe wrong, but i think it unlikely.



Why do you think so Malay? In fact if we closely monitor the relations between the two states and the rate at which they are growing, i may be wrong in my assessment but it would definitely be the F-18. Remember your navy has also expressed interest in the F-18 clearly giving a signal that the new jet for this role have to be in consideration with the navy too and as F-18 is also a carrier based jet, it will be a more suitable choice for the IA since both navy and air force can then run in parallel with the same platform. It would not only save cost but also the air force jets in time of war can land over the AC of the IN. Its just my 2 cents over it.


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## nitesh

IceCold said:


> Why do you think so Malay? In fact if we closely monitor the relations between the two states and the rate at which they are growing, i may be wrong in my assessment but it would definitely be the F-18. Remember your navy has also expressed interest in the F-18 clearly giving a signal that the new jet for this role have to be in consideration with the navy too and as F-18 is also a carrier based jet, it will be a more suitable choice for the IA since both navy and air force can then run in parallel with the same platform. It would not only save cost but also the air force jets in time of war can land over the AC of the IN. Its just my 2 cents over it.



This might be used as an excuse:
European jet makers may replace Boeing in Tejas project - Corporate News - livemint.com


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## IceCold

nitesh said:


> This might be used as an excuse:
> European jet makers may replace Boeing in Tejas project - Corporate News - livemint.com



This should not be used as an excuse and the two things should be dealt with separately.


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## nitesh

IceCold said:


> This should not be used as an excuse and the two things should be dealt with separately.



The way they are behaving doesn't seems good but let's see how the things move. But by seeing the current scenario. Americans doesn't seem to be a good option.


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## Contrarian

IceCold said:


> Why do you think so Malay? In fact if we closely monitor the relations between the two states and the rate at which they are growing, i may be wrong in my assessment but it would definitely be the F-18.


Yes mate, the relations are growing rapidly, but insofar we have not ordered anything that would jeopardize a good chunk of main fighting capability. The MoD still has a good chunk of old age bureaucrats that still think that American defence equipment should be kept limited and to not allow the leverage the US would have over India if their planes are bought in such quantities even when considering that the entire plane would be made here from scratch after an initial period-barring the radar.

On a technical note, the tender is for an M-MRCA, whereas the F/A-18 is an H-MRCA right in the same category as the Su-30MKI. What IAF requires is a light weight complement to the Su-30MKI. F/A-18 is of the same size, is a fuel guzzler has one of the highest operating costs-and the RFP clearly specifies that life cycle costs would clearly play an important part this time. This is the first time that life cycle costs are being considered by the MoD. 
Its in the same class as the Su-30, so it serves no purpose.



> Remember your navy has also expressed interest in the F-18 clearly giving a signal that the new jet for this role have to be in consideration with the navy too and as F-18 is also a carrier based jet, it will be a more suitable choice for the IA since both navy and air force can then run in parallel with the same platform. It would not only save cost but also the air force jets in time of war can land over the AC of the IN. Its just my 2 cents over it.


Our Carriers dont have catapults. That means that they cannot operate the F/A-18E/F. Moreover they are also not of the required tonnage and size to operate such large planes in quantities that are required. For the IN, F/A-18E/F is a nogo.

I rather think Rafale has more of a chance than the F/A-18. Personally, i think Rafale has the max scope while F-16 has the minimum.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## nitesh

malaymishra123 said:


> I rather think Rafale has more of a chance than the F/A-18. Personally, i think Rafale has the max scope while F-16 has the minimum.



I suggest to go for rafale as 126 + 74 as optional and ~100 MiG35 to quickly fill the numbers.


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## Contrarian

nitesh said:


> I suggest to go for rafale as 126 + 74 as optional and ~100 MiG35 to quickly fill the numbers.



Mate, buying 2 types of planes is the biggest folly that the MoD can commit! IAF already has a huge variety of planes that are difficult to maintain. Commonality of planes leads to savings on infrastructure and logistics chain as well as enhances the operational readiness.

Even if you say that the MiG 35 is built up from the MiG 29 as a base, it still induces more problems. Better to go with one plane all the way. 

And this is when IAF is spending big bucks to upgrade the infrastructure in about 30 of its airbases. IAF bases are by and large specialist bases, that means that they cater to a small variety of aircrafts as opposed to general bases which can take care(including repair, etc) of all the aircrafts in IAF. IAF is spending a lot of money now in the first phase to convert these 30 bases to general bases as well as connect all the airbases with an optical fibre network.

Having said that even im worried that in order to make everyone happy, MoD might just buy 2 planes!

Reactions: Like Like:
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## nitesh

Sir your point is correct that was just my thinking if the numbers decline fast then expected. But in that case I would think that IAF will go for Su 35 to just augment the fleet.


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## IceCold

malaymishra123 said:


> Yes mate, the relations are growing rapidly, but insofar we have not ordered anything that would jeopardize a good chunk of main fighting capability. The MoD still has a good chunk of old age bureaucrats that still think that American defence equipment should be kept limited and to not allow the leverage the US would have over India if their planes are bought in such quantities even when considering that the entire plane would be made here from scratch after an initial period-barring the radar.
> 
> On a technical note, the tender is for an M-MRCA, whereas the F/A-18 is an H-MRCA right in the same category as the Su-30MKI. What IAF requires is a light weight complement to the Su-30MKI. F/A-18 is of the same size, is a fuel guzzler has one of the highest operating costs-and the RFP clearly specifies that life cycle costs would clearly play an important part this time. This is the first time that life cycle costs are being considered by the MoD.
> Its in the same class as the Su-30, so it serves no purpose.
> 
> 
> Our Carriers dont have catapults. That means that they cannot operate the F/A-18E/F. Moreover they are also not of the required tonnage and size to operate such large planes in quantities that are required. For the IN, F/A-18E/F is a nogo.
> 
> I rather think Rafale has more of a chance than the F/A-18. Personally, i think Rafale has the max scope while F-16 has the minimum.



You have valid points Malay, but then again why would the navy show interest into something that cannot be operated from what they have in their inventory? Also if i remember correctly Indian specification for their MRCA role included an AESA radar and Rafale does not have it, its still under development and will take some time before gets finally inducted where as the F-18 has everything operational and war tested. F-16 well yes certainly but then again F-16s has seen its glory days and while one could argue over the avionic package that has been offered with it, but what about the airframe that is on the verge of completion of its life cycle?


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## nitesh

IceCold said:


> You have valid points Malay, but then again why would the navy show interest into something that cannot be operated from what they have in their inventory? Also if i remember correctly Indian specification for their MRCA role included an AESA radar and Rafale does not have it, its still under development and will take some time before gets finally inducted where as the F-18 has everything operational and war tested. F-16 well yes certainly but then again F-16s has seen its glory days and while one could argue over the avionic package that has been offered with it, but what about the airframe that is on the verge of completion of its life cycle?



No other contender is having an operational AESA apart from USA, rafale has already flown with RDY (version I don't remember) AESA as well as ZUKH in russian inventory is also working.

It's not only about the capabilities but till what level the vendor want to share the details. Going by the past record french and russians are the best bet.


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## IceCold

nitesh said:


> No other contender is having an operational AESA apart from USA.



Exactly and that is why i said that F-18 seems to be the valid choice.




> It's not only about the capabilities but till what level the vendor want to share the details. Going by the past record french and russians are the best bet.



I wouldn't argue over it as your points hold some valid ground but then again India has always in the end being able to turn the tide of the deal into her favorwhy would this be any different? I agree that US when it comes down to sharing can hold a few things back but this is certainly not that big of an issue which cannot be solved, but to highlight it and compromise with the best is certainly not advisable. Russians have nothing to offer. India already has the best of what Russia has to offer SU-30MKI, the MIGs are being upgraded which if not the same but close to same will bring it on par with the Mig-35. So nothing new there.


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## su-47

US F-18s have only one real major advantage and thats AESA. If we sign the deal just for the AESA, it'll be a terrible folly, since europeans and israelis will also bring out their AESA's in the near future. Rafale or typhoon armed with AESA will be much deadlier than F-18s. 

considering that the cost of f-18s are not much less than that of the rafale, and that the only edge F-18 has over rafale is AESA, i dont see why IAf should get F-18s.


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## IceCold

su-47 said:


> US F-18s have only one real major advantage and thats AESA. If we sign the deal just for the AESA, it'll be a terrible folly, since europeans and israelis will also bring out their AESA's in the near future. Rafale or typhoon armed with AESA will be much deadlier than F-18s.
> 
> considering that the cost of f-18s are not much less than that of the rafale, and that the only edge F-18 has over rafale is AESA, i dont see why IAf should get F-18s.



F-18 is a combat proven jet while the rest that you mentioned has yet to see a combat. Also AESA is not just an issue its a very important factor that has to be considered into account. Yes an AESA radar will finally join both EF and Rafale however that does not mean that the jets will become more deadlier then the F-18. F-18 has a class of its own and considering your adversaries, it will be the most advance and deadly piece of machine south Asia has yet to see.


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## nitesh

To

Ice and SU

Seems like typhoon and rafale are the only good options left. As gripen is again dependent on US a lot. But any way we can only speculate.


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## nitesh

I think this might be of interest:

EADS N.V. - EADS Test & Services installs test systems at the Indian Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) to support combat aircraft development


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## su-47

nitesh said:


> To
> 
> Ice and SU
> 
> Seems like typhoon and rafale are the only good options left. As gripen is again dependent on US a lot. But any way we can only speculate.



exactly. from here, with the limited amount of information available to us, we cant do much but speculate. all the relevant info for decision making must be being analysed at this very moment.


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## nitesh

I think more or less it is going to be rafale as the snecma is being chosen as the partner for help in kaveri. what u guys say?


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## Energon

malaymishra123 said:


> On a technical note, the tender is for an M-MRCA, whereas the F/A-18 is an H-MRCA right in the same category as the Su-30MKI. What IAF requires is a light weight complement to the Su-30MKI. F/A-18 is of the same size, is a fuel guzzler has one of the highest operating costs-and the RFP clearly specifies that life cycle costs would clearly play an important part this time. This is the first time that life cycle costs are being considered by the MoD.
> Its in the same class as the Su-30, so it serves no purpose.


 The Flanker series of aircraft are considerably larger and heavier than the F/A-18 E/F. Even the Super hornet's larger predecessor, the F-14 Tomcat, a behemoth in its own right along with the USAF's F-15s fall shy of the weight and size comparison against the Flankers.
Undoubtedly the Super hornet is largest of the aircrafts being fielded in this MRCA competition; but I'm not really sure it can be categorized alongside the Su-30MKI.
I completely agree with you on the fuel consumption, operational costs and general serviceability being the most critical deciding factors. If in this regards, the Rafale is superior, then it will certainly stand a better chance. Although the IAF has always held the Mirage2000 in high regards when it comes to these factors, I just hope they don't automatically assume that the same will be true for the Rafale. The latter is in a completely different category and should be considered a brand new and radically different platform that requires an evaluation from the ground up. 



malaymishra said:


> Our Carriers dont have catapults. That means that they cannot operate the F/A-18E/F. Moreover they are also not of the required tonnage and size to operate such large planes in quantities that are required. For the IN, F/A-18E/F is a nogo.
> 
> I rather think Rafale has more of a chance than the F/A-18. Personally, i think Rafale has the max scope while F-16 has the minimum.


 I believe Boeing has conducted simulations to determine that the super hornet can in fact be operated from a Ski Deck. That being said, I still don't think the IN can possibly field this aircraft because I'm assuming that the simulation was based on a highly stripped down version of the Super hornet which would impede its operational capacity akin to what has happened with the Su-33. As a side note, I think it is really important that the IN start looking into acquiring the catapult system for its two new planned carriers, not only to enable the possible launch of fully loaded Rafales or Super hornets, but more importantly for AEWs.


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## Contrarian

IceCold said:


> You have valid points Malay, but then again why would the navy show interest into something that cannot be operated from what they have in their inventory?


I dont really think the Navy has shown interest in it mate. The navy is not going to get it in either case. The Navy already has gotten new MiG 29K's and will in all likelihood get the N-LCA as well. They dont need it. Plus if anything Rafale-M is a far better choice if the Navy wanted a carrier capable plane.



> Also if i remember correctly Indian specification for their MRCA role included an AESA radar and Rafale does not have it, its still under development and will take some time before gets finally inducted where as the F-18 has everything operational and war tested.


Yeah, AESA is a must, Rafale and Eurofighter both have AESA radars in its final versions. They would be fielded soon. Remember the first planes will also start comming in around 2012,much before that both Typhoon and Rafale would have their AESA's operational.



> F-16 well yes certainly but then again F-16s has seen its glory days and while one could argue over the avionic package that has been offered with it, but what about the airframe that is on the verge of completion of its life cycle?


Yes, there are two basic reasons for not selecting F-16's(per me):
One, as you said, is that F-16 has seen its glory days and the USAF is already planning to phase it out. There is no point in getting a plane that is planned to be replaced soon by the country that made it.

The second, is that even though LM has guarenteed that this plane is far different from the one that PAF operates, i doubt the MoD or the IAF would want a plane who's in's & out's are known to PAF. You cant really change the airframe that much, you can change the interiors.


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## Energon

nitesh said:


> I think more or less it is going to be rafale as the snecma is being chosen as the partner for help in kaveri. what u guys say?



Yes, I think the Rafale with the Snecma technical package is currently the front runner. The Eurofighter Typhoon is far too expensive and the Mig35 is out on account of numerous problems.

The F-18 E/F super hornet is still close and may just end up taking this away given the aircrafts technical proficiency and most of all the political and economic benefits associated with this purchase. The only impediment of course is the US Congress' EUA clause; but I have a feeling they'll be willing to be highly ameliorative with this when engaging in a strictly bilateral agreement with India without third party involvement.


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## Contrarian

IceCold said:


> F-18 is a combat proven jet while the rest that you mentioned has yet to see a combat. Also AESA is not just an issue its a very important factor that has to be considered into account. Yes an AESA radar will finally join both EF and Rafale however that does not mean that the jets will become more deadlier then the F-18. F-18 has a class of its own and considering your adversaries, it will be the most advance and deadly piece of machine south Asia has yet to see.



Nah mate, as of now there are only 2 advantages that the F-18 brings:
1. Operational AESA
2. The range of munitions that come with the F-18.

While the French, Eurofighter consortium, as well as the Russians are near to fielding their own AESA, there is little incentive to take risks with the US. I forgot Israel has an operational AESA as well that is on offer to us-the El/M 2052. 

The only thing India would be missing out is the munitions like HARM, etc that come with the F-18.

F-18 also has a dated frame, its operating costs are MUCH higher compared to Rafale, like i said before, for the first time India is considering the life cycle costs as a major factor.

Even Rafale or the Typhoon would be the most advanced and deadly piece of machine South Asia has yet to see. This ranges from the date of the design/airframe to all aspect stealth. The Rafale is newer as is the Typhoon. The reason i think that Rafale will win is that what IAF really needs is a plane that is really good in a2g, and Typhoon lacks in that department while Rafale is pretty good, and yes, the F-18 is great in that dept as well but consider the points mentioned above.

The plane has to be a complement to the Su-30MKI, not an equal. The Su-30 is an H-MRCA, as is the F-18. What IAF needs is an M-MRCA.


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## nitesh

malay sir

I want to add one more point that rafale has not won any major order till date and winning this order will open a lot of opportunities for them.


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## Contrarian

Energon said:


> The Flanker series of aircraft are considerably larger and heavier than the F/A-18 E/F. Even the Super hornet's larger predecessor, the F-14 Tomcat, a behemoth in its own right along with the USAF's F-15s fall shy of the weight and size comparison against the Flankers.
> Undoubtedly the Super hornet is largest of the aircrafts being fielded in this MRCA competition; but I'm not really sure it can be categorized alongside the Su-30MKI.
> I completely agree with you on the fuel consumption, operational costs and general serviceability being the most critical deciding factors. If in this regards, the Rafale is superior, then it will certainly stand a better chance.


That is the basis of my assumption. However, the F/A-18E/F still classifies as a heavy fighter and with it, all the operational hassles, that are not really required when we already have a bloody long range fighter which can pull an equal amount of ordnance if required.



> Although the IAF has always held the Mirage2000 in high regards when it comes to these factors, I just hope they don't automatically assume that the same will be true for the Rafale. The latter is in a completely different category and should be considered a brand new and radically different platform that requires an evaluation from the ground up.


Well, the French did say that the Mirage 2000 production line can be modified to produce Rafale, and as IAF has a good experience in operating Mirage 2000's, and considering that the production has to take place here, IAF might think it the best option. Remember that IAF already wanted the Mirage 2000 as its original MRCA, they wanted it to be manufactured here, the govt didnt go through with it.



> I believe Boeing has conducted simulations to determine that the super hornet can in fact be operated from a Ski Deck. That being said, I still don't think the IN can possibly field this aircraft because I'm assuming that the simulation was based on a highly stripped down version of the Super hornet which would impede its operational capacity akin to what has happened with the Su-33.


You hit the nail on the head. It will be a F/A-18E/F with a token ordinance. It is pointless.



> As a side note, I think it is really important that the IN start looking into acquiring the catapult system for its two new planned carriers, not only to enable the possible launch of fully loaded Rafales or Super hornets, but more importantly for AEWs.


The design for the second indegenous Carrier is already fixed as per what i read in some reports. Fixing the Cats in the third Carrier however maybe a feasible option. But for that the tonnage of the Carrier has to increase as well.


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## Contrarian

Energon said:


> The F-18 E/F super hornet is still close and may just end up taking this away given the aircrafts technical proficiency and most of all the political and economic benefits associated with this purchase.* The only impediment of course is the US Congress' EUA clause*; but I have a feeling they'll be willing to be highly ameliorative with this when engaging in a strictly bilateral agreement with India without third party involvement.



I think that has already been worked out. India instead of allowing on-site inspections and checks, which is the norm for the US, was willing to give access to records on equipment use along with guarentees. The US agreed i think. The EUA was not signed on account of the Left parties, but the technicalities have been worked out.


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## nitesh

One more point here only US operates steam catapults and moving towards electromagnetic ones. Correct me if I am wrong but US has not transferred this tech to any one.


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## Energon

nitesh said:


> One more point here only US operates steam catapults and moving towards electromagnetic ones. Correct me if I am wrong but US has not transferred this tech to any one.


EM catapults no. I don't think they're fully operational yet. The steam catapults yes. The French Navy has bought this tech from the US to enable Rafale launches from the Charles de Gaulle


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## nitesh

Energon said:


> EM catapults no. I don't think they're fully operational yet. The steam catapults yes. The French Navy has bought this tech from the US to enable Rafale launches from the Charles de Gaulle



Thanks energon, but suppose India chooses F18/F16 as the MRCA winner what will be the cost of providing the infrastructure for them. I mean India operates lot of Russian, French, Israel weapons like R77/73 Matra, Python etc. etc. Will US allow them to be integrated with her planes? If not then the total infrastructure need to be created for new planes. This can also play a major role in the decision making.


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## blain2

nitesh said:


> Thanks energon, but suppose India chooses F18/F16 as the MRCA winner what will be the cost of providing the infrastructure for them. I mean India operates lot of Russian, French, Israel weapons like R77/73 Matra, Python etc. etc. Will US allow them to be integrated with her planes? If not then the total infrastructure need to be created for new planes. This can also play a major role in the decision making.



Israeli and French weapons will not be an issue on F/A-18 and the Viper however Russians would be. I doubt that IAF would want to integrate Russian weapons on US aircraft. US or the Europeans have a solution available to match anything the Russians offer in terms of their weapons so I doubt that anyone would go for the headache to pay for integration and testing of Russian weapons on US aircraft.


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## nitesh

blain2 said:


> Israeli and French weapons will not be an issue on F/A-18 and the Viper however Russians would be. I doubt that IAF would want to integrate Russian weapons on US aircraft. US or the Europeans have a solution available to match anything the Russians offer in terms of their weapons so I doubt that anyone would go for the headache to pay for integration and testing of Russian weapons on US aircraft.



Yeah seems like a comic book story, a US plane firing russian missiles and vice versa


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## Contrarian

blain2 said:


> Israeli and French weapons will not be an issue on F/A-18 and the Viper however Russians would be. I doubt that IAF would want to integrate Russian weapons on US aircraft. US or the Europeans have a solution available to match anything the Russians offer in terms of their weapons so I doubt that anyone would go for the headache to pay for integration and testing of Russian weapons on US aircraft.



2 weapons- The R-77M and the Meteor.


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## jaison

i dont think the us,french,eads will allow foriegn missiles to equip their planes,if they do they will modify the software but the swedes have said that they will give us the source code so that we can change it to accomodate our weapons of choice.may be even russians may allow this on their planes,but i may be wrong


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## nitesh

jaison said:


> i dont think the us,french,eads will allow foriegn missiles to equip their planes,if they do they will modify the software but the swedes have said that they will give us the source code so that we can change it to accomodate our weapons of choice.may be even russians may allow this on their planes,but i may be wrong



That's to generalized statement mate. What swedes can offer, do there plane runs on there engines/radar? It uses US techs in that don't US can put senctions from behind?


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## jaison

thats a sensible question but the swedes have assured us that supply of spares wont be interrupted.........


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## jaison

Gripen Ng and Tejas combo?	


Author: idrw team | 25 July 2008 | Views: 524


BY : VINAY SHETTI FOR IDRW.ORG NEW SERVICE 



Gripen Ng and Tejas flying together in a same mission over green fields of Punjab, or doing combat patrolling over the skies of capital city, might actually become a real time event in future, Gripen NG which is one of the front runners for supplying the 126 jets to Indian air force, it now seems to have impressed the Top guns in the Indian air force also, the new Gripen which the Saab Aerospace calls Gripen NG (Next Generation) which was recently rolled out on 23 April 2008 in the Saab Aerospace facility , it does not have an entirely new brand new look nor does it have any look of stealthy aircrafts like F-22 or F-35 but it does have some major improvements over its previous model (Gripen C/D) , 

New features which are the hard to ignore are the new massive General Electric F414G Engines which also powers the F/A-18E/F super hornets and which may also power India&#8217;s very own Tejas Block-2 fighter aircraft in future ,with 25% more thrust and new AESA radar, more weapons payload and more increase in range, aircraft had to go through very minimum change as the its landing gear had to be displaced from its undercarriage to its main wing pylons which freed up large space in the center fuselage section of the aircraft also provided room for extra fuel tanks ,Actually Gripen Ng as more unrefueled range then F-16 that&#8217;s 2,200 nautical miles ,use of Dual launch rails have also improved the aircraft's weapon carrying capacity from earlier 8 stations to 10 in the new current version .

Many Military Experts in India in past have dismissed Gripen as not the Strongest contender of the Indian Air forces M-MRCA programme which has been fought hard by American F-16 and F/A-18E/F along with Mig-35 from Russia and Euro fighter from Europe ,Experts have argued repeatedly that Countries own Tejas fighter aircraft will have similar capability when it joins Indian air force in 2011-12 time frame which is same exact time frame when jet selected from the M-MRCA programme are supposed to be delivered, but with the new Re-incarnation of the Gripen it might have a better chance of winning the M-MRCA requirements of the Indian air force.

Gripen Ng will not only bring array of new weapons and Avionics to Indian air force but will also be able to meet the Indian air force requirements ,it will also enable Hal to carry out its own future upgrades to the aircraft ,*Saab which as promised to provide the Software code of the aircraft which will enable to integrate locally built Astra BVR AAM and other weapon systems *,if General Electric&#8217;s F414G Engines are selected for Tejas for the Block-2 version it will also enable Indian Air force maintain the commonality between the Two aircraft's engines
saab has made a competitive offer


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## nitesh

Is Gripen or Gripen NG is more capable then rafale/typhoon/MiG35 or F18 I am not considering the F 16 here. And what makes you think that others might not have offered the same thing?


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## jaison

no you misunderstood me i was just trying to say that the swedes are more flexible in terms of tech transfer and they have made a fine offer but then i am not mature enough to comment on wat suits the iaf best ,lets leave it to the higher officials of the iaf


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## nitesh

jaison said:


> no you misunderstood me i was just trying to say that the swedes are more flexible in terms of tech transfer and they have made a fine offer but then i am not mature enough to comment on wat suits the iaf best ,lets leave it to the higher officials of the iaf



No i have not misunderstood you, sorry if u thought like that. The point is which plane is most beneficial to india in terms of capability and the ToT offered. The best combination will go through.


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## jaison

u are right ,i agree that the best balance between tech transfer,industrial cooperation and platform capability and modernity will be the key


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## nitesh

jaison said:


> u are right ,i agree that the best balance between tech transfer,industrial cooperation and platform capability and modernity will be the key



Add to that the geopolitical benefits


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## Contrarian

Gripen NG is a fantastic machine. It can not only supercruise, but it does so with an operationally significant payload.


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## jaison

all machines in mrca are fantastic machines but the question is which one suits the iaf better and why but i am afraid there is no answer to these questions


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## nitesh

Guys found an interesting article about Super bug

Hornets Hurting

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## IceCold

nitesh said:


> Guys found an interesting article about Super bug
> 
> Hornets Hurting



Its because as mentioned by your article that the plane was extensively landed over the AC with its payload because all of the payload was not used over Iraq. First in Indian case scenario the jets if India chooses for them will be with the IAF and not IN, so one can expect very few landings over the AC just when there are no runways or for e.g enemy is able to completely neutralize the Indian runways, but not other wise. So IMO i don't think this issue is something to be of problem to Indian air force.


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## IceCold

malaymishra123 said:


> Gripen NG is a fantastic machine. It can not only supercruise, but it does so with an operationally significant payload.



Isn't Gripen a light weight fighter? I mean that while one was arguing over the F-18 to fall into the H-MRCA category along with the MKI, Gripen on the other hand fall into the light weight category and besides have many US parts involved in it. Will it be a feasible choice?


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## nitesh

IceCold said:


> Isn't Gripen a light weight fighter? I mean that while one was arguing over the F-18 to fall into the H-MRCA category along with the MKI, Gripen on the other hand fall into the light weight category and besides have many US parts involved in it. Will it be a feasible choice?



Can't agree with you more, need to seriously think bedore choosing the planes which have substantial US inputs.


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## Contrarian

IceCold said:


> Isn't Gripen a light weight fighter? I mean that while one was arguing over the F-18 to fall into the H-MRCA category along with the MKI, Gripen on the other hand fall into the light weight category and besides have many US parts involved in it. Will it be a feasible choice?



Yep. But i clarified with them at Aero India '07. What if the US sanctions India, how will you provide equipment then. They said the US sanctions India, but Sweden would still be in contract, they would have to take equipment off their own inventory or whatever, but they have to abide by the contract.

And Gripen *NG* is not a light fighter mate. Its a medium weight fighter. Its bigger, heavier and much much more advanced than the Gripen C/D that exists now.


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## jaison

aircrafts on ac tend to wear easily because of high humidity and other harsh conditions the oceans offer.........


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## nitesh

Guys the fun is about to begin:

&#8216;Flight evaluation by Jan&#8217; - Newindpress.com

&#8216;Flight evaluation by Jan&#8217;
Friday August 15 2008 05:55 IST
Express News Service

BANGALORE: *Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal F H Major, on Thursday, said that the flight evaluation of the 126 medium multi-role combat (MMRC) aircraft, which the Indian Air Force (IAF) plans to acquire , would be conducted next year.*

*"The technical evaluation of the aircraft is going on and we are hopeful of progressing to the flight evaluation stage by January,"* Major told reporters, after receiving the first HAL-built Hawk Mk 132 aircraft. The IAF has received bids from the Eurofighter Typhoon, the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, and the Lockheed Martin F-16, three other aircraft __ the Swedish Gripen, the French Rafale and the Russian MiG-35 __ for the 126 MMRC&#8217;s.

A request for the proposal was floated last year by the IAF and after the aircraft is put through field trials, the winner would be decided.

Refusing to comment on the front-runner to win the bid stating that all were formidable aircraft, he said that the off-set clause of the new Defence Procurement Policy was an ideal opportunity for aerospace companies to cash on.

*On the IAFs Aerospace Space Command, he said that it was in the process of evolving and a space cell has already been set up at the Air Headquarters in New Delhi under an Air Vice Marshal.*

*"What we are looking for is to use space-enabled facilities, where we can have sensors and communication systems in the space so we can have our eyes and ears there," he said.*

Excellent coordination

The Air Chief Marshal said that the IAF and the Indian Army maintained an excellent coordination in Jammu and Kashmir and termed the recent exchange of fire by Pakistani troops as a cause of concern. "Any kind of skirmish situation on the Line of Control or the International Border is a cause of concern," he said.

HAL&#8217;S FIRST HAWK HANDED OVER TO IAF

THE first Hindustan Aeronautics Limited-built Hawk Mk 132 was delivered to the Indian Air Force (IAF) on Thursday.

The Hawk Mk 132 aircraft, an advanced trainer, is expected to improve the quality of training rookie pilots of the IAF, who till date had to undergo a direct transition from trainer aircraft like Kiran to frontline fighters like the MiG-21. Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshall FH Major who received the first aircraft, said that the Hawk will help pilots shift from transonic to supersonic aircraft.

The Hawk aircraft which will be based at the Bidar Air Base, where 20 cadets of the IAF will undergo the Hawk training course, is expected to improve the training tremendously, he said.

To meet the requirements of the IAF, 66 Hawks have been acquired, of which 24 would be supplied by British aerospace major BAE Systems in flyaway condition and the remaining 42 would be built at HAL Aircraft division, Bangalore, under licence production.

HAL Chairman Ashok Baweja said that the remaining aircraft which are being built by HAL are in an advanced stage of completion and the Phase-II/III production is progressing as per the project plan.

*"The 42 aircraft which is part of Phase-II will be delivered by 2011, followed by 57 of the phase- III will be delivered in the next 6 years. In total 100 aircraft will be delivered to the IAF," he said.*


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## jaison

Opinion: Gripen hard to beat in Indian MMRCA contest	


Author: idrw team | 5 August 2008 | Views: 272


BY : JANES 

While there is no shortage of fighter aircraft procurement programmes currently under way, the most eagerly anticipated contest is undoubtedly India's medium multirole combat aircraft (MMRCA) requirement for at least 126 aircraft.

The six contenders have now submitted their proposals: Boeing's F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Dassault's Rafale, Eurofighter's Typhoon, Lockheed Martin's F-16, Russian Aircraft Corporation's (RAC's) MiG with the MiG-35 and the Saab JAS 39 Gripen. Arguably each aircraft stands a fighting chance of securing the lucrative USD10 billion contract.

India continues to have a close relationship with Dassault, which supplied the Indian Air Force (IAF) with Mirage 2000 fighters in the 1980s. However, given the IAF's emphasis on future upgrades for its MMRCA aircraft, the lack of operators of the Rafale is likely to be seen as a significant issue.

The Rafale and the Typhoon could also struggle with the issue of cost. Both are relatively large twin-engined platforms, which will significantly increase operating costs compared with the single-engined MiG-21 fleet it will replace.

The MiG-35 is seen by many as a strong contender. India has a very close relationship with Russia, which has provided the majority of its equipment over the past 30 years. However, over the past year India's relationship with Russia with regards to arms contracts has soured.

The two US contenders seem well placed in terms of price and capability as India seeks to establish closer military bonds with Washington. However the F-16 is hindered by the fact that Pakistan already operates the type. Furthermore the aircraft is already being phased out by the US Air Force.

The Boeing Super Hornet does not suffer from these issues. However, one unresolved issue with regards to both US platforms is the authorisation of technology transfer.

Saab holds a strong hand with the Gripen. The aircraft is single engined, which will keep operating costs low, upgrades are already being defined under the Gripen Demonstrator programme and acquisition costs are highly competitive.

it seems the lead axis is tilting towards gripen


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## nitesh

everybody is entitled to have an opinion, any way let the evaluation begin and then only some real opinion can be formed till that time all is speculation only.


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## jaison

yes the future is very unpredictable, but its the nature of the human mind to forsee it.......but i totally agree with your fact nitesh this will go on till the results.........


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## su-47

IAF has to remember that MRCA is mostly a fill-gap measure. the aircraft we get should be the most cost-effective one. and this cost includes monetary costs like fly-away cost per plane, cost of support structure, logistic networks, maintenance, operational costs, training of pilots etc) and non-monetary ones (like logistic problems, low operational readiness, low sortie rate, threat of sanctions etc). 

after considering all the above, to me Rafale seems best, with gripen coming in second.


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## Contrarian

su-47 said:


> IAF has to remember that MRCA is mostly a fill-gap measure. the aircraft we get should be the most cost-effective one. and this cost includes monetary costs like fly-away cost per plane, cost of support structure, logistic networks, maintenance, operational costs, training of pilots etc) and non-monetary ones (like logistic problems, low operational readiness, low sortie rate, threat of sanctions etc).
> 
> after considering all the above, to me Rafale seems best, with gripen coming in second.



Sorry Su, i disagree. I dont think of it as a fill gap measure. I think it is a long term measure that will cruicially enhance or cripple our AF in the future. The best mix of technology in an airforce should be ATLEAST 30:30:30, that is 30% cutting edge, 30% standard levels, 30% obsolete that is being replaced.

As of now, we are facing the problems of block obsolescence of a good percentage of our fleet ie from MiG 21's to MiG 27's. If we think of the MRCA as an interim measure and buy say MiG 35 or even the Mirage 2000(as many people have suggested, even though its not in the competition), 20 years from now, we would AGAIN be facing the very same problem we are facing now. We would have a very modern plane in decent numbers and rising like we have for the Su-30MKI right now and the majority of the fleet would be outdated with the Su-30MKI and MiG 35 and LCA.

And if we think of this MRCA as a major acquisition to break this vicious cycle and buy say the Typhoon or Rafale or even the Gripen NG, all of which might cost much more than the MiG 35(which, per your analysis of fly away cost of the plane-is the lowest) but are expected to be the frontline fighters of their respective airforces for the next few decades even after the advent of true 5th generation fighters, we would be doing ourselves a huge favour.

Imagine 20 years from now, the Su-30MKI which would form the bulk of our AF would be an average fighter of contemporary times, like the MiG 29's of today or the Mirage 2000's. While the MRCA would form the 30% modern planes and the PAK-FA being to us at that time what the Su-30MKI is today. That is what we want. IF we buy the MiG 35 and go for the cheapest route right now, it would come back and bite us int he a$$ after 2 decades.


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## su-47

malaymishra123 said:


> Sorry Su, i disagree. I dont think of it as a fill gap measure. I think it is a long term measure that will cruicially enhance or cripple our AF in the future. The best mix of technology in an airforce should be ATLEAST 30:30:30, that is 30% cutting edge, 30% standard levels, 30% obsolete that is being replaced.
> 
> As of now, we are facing the problems of block obsolescence of a good percentage of our fleet ie from MiG 21's to MiG 27's. If we think of the MRCA as an interim measure and buy say MiG 35 or even the Mirage 2000(as many people have suggested, even though its not in the competition), 20 years from now, we would AGAIN be facing the very same problem we are facing now. We would have a very modern plane in decent numbers and rising like we have for the Su-30MKI right now and the majority of the fleet would be outdated with the Su-30MKI and MiG 35 and LCA.
> 
> And if we think of this MRCA as a major acquisition to break this vicious cycle and buy say the Typhoon or Rafale or even the Gripen NG, all of which might cost much more than the MiG 35(which, per your analysis of fly away cost of the plane-is the lowest) but are expected to be the frontline fighters of their respective airforces for the next few decades even after the advent of true 5th generation fighters, we would be doing ourselves a huge favour.
> 
> Imagine 20 years from now, the Su-30MKI which would form the bulk of our AF would be an average fighter of contemporary times, like the MiG 29's of today or the Mirage 2000's. While the MRCA would form the 30% modern planes and the PAK-FA being to us at that time what the Su-30MKI is today. That is what we want. IF we buy the MiG 35 and go for the cheapest route right now, it would come back and bite us int he a$$ after 2 decades.



i never suggested the MiG-35. read my post carefully. i said MRCA is *mostly* a fill-gap measure. remember, if LCA wasnt delayed, MRCA requirement wouldnt exist. 

when i used the word cost-effective, i didnt mean cheap. i was talking about value for money in the long-term. it is not necessarily the cheapest plane that has highest value for money. I was in favour of Rafale and gripen, since they seem most cost-effective when all factors, even the non-monetary ones like life span, are considered. 

i hope i have clarified my point.


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## nitesh

Guys I think with MRCA acquisition the structure of IAF would be something like this (2015-2020 time frame)

Heavy category (Primary air dominance): SU 30 MKI (some MLU'ed using SU 35 tech) and PAK-FA as it starts induction

Medium category (Primary A2G with Heavy category planes and air defense missions with Light category planes): (There are lot of specialized planes here these will changed to single MRCA winner) MiG27, Mirage 2000, Jaguar, MiG29 [These guys will be in last leg for there life time] MRCA winner (my favorite rafale) and complimented by MCA as and when it emerges

Light category (Point defense role and occasional A2G with medium category for cover): LCA and MiG21 BiS (I am taking reference from Air Chief interview posted in LCA thread that IAF plans to have 6 squadrons of LCA by 2018).

My choice for rafale is because as per recent reports snecma is going to help GTRE with kaveri project so bringing rafale in will be a good choice.

Correct me if I am wrong


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## nitesh

Guys check this, this is a good read:

F/A-18E/F Super Hornet vs. Sukhoi Flanker


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## Contrarian

su-47 said:


> i never suggested the MiG-35. read my post carefully. i said MRCA is *mostly* a fill-gap measure. remember, if LCA wasnt delayed, MRCA requirement wouldnt exist.
> 
> when i used the word cost-effective, i didnt mean cheap. i was talking about value for money in the long-term. it is not necessarily the cheapest plane that has highest value for money. I was in favour of Rafale and gripen, since they seem most cost-effective when all factors, even the non-monetary ones like life span, are considered.
> 
> i hope i have clarified my point.



Roger! Seems i jumped the gun


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## nitesh

Guys check this info, some interesting turning possible:

FT.com / World - UK tries to offload Typhoon fighters

UK tries to offload Typhoon fighters
By Stephen Fidler, Sylvia Pfeifer and Alex Barker
Published: August 19 2008 23:31 | Last updated: August 19 2008 23:40
Talks have been held with countries including Japan about offloading large numbers of Eurofighter Typhoons that the British Ministry of Defence has ordered but can no longer afford.

The talks, which officials say are at an early stage, underline the scale of the cash crisis facing the MoD as it grapples with an estimated budget deficit of &#163;2bn.

The Royal Air Force, which had ordered 144 Eurofighters in two earlier contracts, is committed to buying another 88 as part of its membership of the Eurofighter consortium with Germany, Italy and Spain.

Severe financial penalties would be incurred for cancelling or cutting this number and the UK is sounding out potential buyers for all or part of its order.

Defence officials have confirmed that Japan, Saudi Arabia and India are among countries that have expressed interest.

Japan&#8217;s interest will surprise many in the industry as it has tended in the past to buy more aircraft from US manufacturers.

India, which has in the past bought Russian fighters, has made no secret of its ambition to expand its indigenous defence capabilities and is evaluating bids from five groups, including Eurofighter, for a new multi-role combat aircraft.

*India&#8217;s tender could be a lucrative order for the consortium. In order to divert aircraft intended for the RAF to India, the UK would need approval from its consortium partners. The transfer of sensitive military technology is likely to be another potential hurdle.*

The Saudi Royal Air Force has 72 Typhoons on order from the UK under an agreement signed last September, to be built by BAE Systems, the arms contractor. Separately, Riyadh has begun talks with London to buy between 48 and 72 additional Typhoons, a source close to the Saudi government confirmed.

The initial BAE order, known as Project Salam, was worth &#163;4.3bn for the aircraft, with the contract value likely to rise to &#163;20bn once support and maintenance are included.

Any agreement on offloading the RAF Eurofighters is unlikely to be reached until next year.

The MoD said: &#8220;We would not comment on government-to-government discussions, even to confirm that such discussions are taking place.&#8221;

The sounding of potential buyers comes as the four partner nations in the consortium remain locked in difficult negotiations over whether each must buy the same number of aircraft from the group as agreed originally.

Both the UK and Italy asked late last year what it would cost to buy fewer aircraft than agreed initially or none at all, but both options were regarded as unworkable because they would incur such a high financial penalty.

The Eurofighter contract, designed to discourage countries such as Germany from cutting back orders, is written so tightly that it would be almost as cheap to take delivery of the aircraft as to incur the penalties.


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## jaison

things are getting really for eads........would this be a handicap for ef in mrca


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## nitesh

i feel by going though this type of news that there in no point in getting a plane in which the member countries are not keen esp after F35 on the grabs. Now I am revising my favorite list 

1. Rafale
2. S Bug
3. MiG 35
4. Typhoon
5. F 16 IN
6. Gripen


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## jaison

yes i agree with you that the rafale has to have the first place.........uae is going to place orders and hopefully more will follow from other nations,this may ensure finance for future development and reduce unit cost,french are helping us like no other in kaveri,no problem of sanctions,iaf familiar with tech................the french must have made a good offer but they are not going bublic and that is the reason many are ignoring it......may be even the jv kaveri can power the rafale as the french suggested earlier.......it may well be the front runner


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## nitesh

I feel like if nuke deal passes the NSG barrier SH will come to first place.

But only IF it passes


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## jaison

but sh tot is not up to the mark..........i hope the iaf goes for a plane which suits best in combat and not diplomacy.


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## nitesh

IAF will give it's recommendation but the end result will on GoI about on whom to place order


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## nitesh

Guys check this, 

Defense Technology International - July 2008

I don't know where to put this so putting it here, but quite an interesting development:
Defense Technology International - July 2008


----------



## nitesh

Guys check this, 

Defense Technology International - July 2008

I don't know where to put this so putting it here, but quite an interesting development:
Defense Technology International - July 2008


----------



## jaison

interesting, very intersting...........sending boeing officials to wherever the apche is deployed is a very good idea it will improve the helicopters availability manyfold..........but i still have one doubt will the US transfer full technology or partial technology on apg-79,may be if they hide only the high speed processor tech,then we can use a scale the e-scan antenna for aircraft like sukhoi,mig upg, mirage upg,lca using the original processors on their original radars commonly called "plug and play"that would give us a desicive edge over the enemy.i hope nuke deal goes thru and we may have a better a chance in tot.


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## nitesh

Central Chronicle--Column

New defence policy: No to agents 

Six global defence and aircraft manufacturers, who are in the race to win the lucrative bid for supply of 126 medium multi role combat (MMRC) aircraft to the Indian Air Force, have submitted a list of local vendors, from whom they would source components, systems and service in addition to offering an increased investment to revitalize India's defence and aerospace sectors in the event of winning the order.
This development, not surprisingly was in response to a new investment-friendly weapons' procurement policy unveiled by Defence Minister A.K. Antony on August 1. The policy specifically mandates that all foreign companies bidding for major Indian defence contracts worth over Rs.3,000-million will have to invest anything between 30 per cent and 50 per cent of the value of the order in the Indian defence and aerospace sectors.

Interestingly, American defence and aerospace majors, Boeing Co and Lockheed Martin have already inked contracts with a number of industrial groups and software and IT services companies to execute the offset clause forming part of the contract, in anticipation of bagging the order. "We are already establishing the ground work that will lead us to success in this large undertaking through early management of Indian industry, both in the public and private sectors" observed Boeing Integrated Defense Systems Vice President (India) Vivek Lall.

On the other hand, the Bangalore-based aeronautical and defence outfit Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) is quite bullish about the benefits flowing to it from the offset clause. According to its spokesman, "We will work with the vendors chosen by the winner." As it is, HAL will license produce 108 of the 126 combat aircraft to be acquired by India, while the 18 jets will be delivered to IAF in a flyway condition.

In the race to grab an estimated US$10-billion order for the supply of 126 combat aircraft: are Boeing's F/A-18 Super Hornet, Lockheed Martin's F-16 Falcon, Russia's Mig-35, Swedish Jas-39 from Grippen, French Dassault Rafale and Eurofighter Typhoon from the British, German, Spanish and Italian firms consortium. As it is, these six defence majors had submitted their bid this April. "We will seriously examine all the bids and shortlist the companies in due course" said a spokesman of the Defence Ministry.

It was an anticipated delay in the induction of India's home-grown fourth generation, supersonic tactical fighter Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas that nudged the IAF to scout the global defence market for the procurement of the 126 combat aircraft, that would serve as the frontline fighters by replacing the aging and obsolete Mig-series of fighter jets. As things stand now, LCA Tejas is not expected to be ready for induction till early next decade.

As stated by defence ministry sources, India's new defence procurement policy (DPP-2008) not only seeks to end the "murky role of middlemen and agents" in defence deals, but also put the procurement of armaments and fighting equipment on a fast track with a clear cut focus on transparency at every stage. As New Delhi-based defence analysts point out, in the backdrop of India's emergence as a major and lucrative defence market, with plans to spend up to US$50-billion on the import of defence hardware and equipment over the next five years, the need for a comprehensive well-drafted defence purchase policy has become all the more pronounced.

Till recently, India's defence procurement scenario was under the vicious influence of middlemen, whose questionable role had resulted in the cancellation of a couple of recent military procurement deals. Against this backdrop Antony has made it clear that "we will not allow middlemen in defence deals". And, according to the Ministry spokesman, "as per the new policy, armament companies will have to sign integrity pacts to ensure that no unethical means will be employed to bag these deals".

The new policy also lays stress on enhancing the transparency of technical trials in addition to easing licensing conditions for India's private sector companies to participate in defence production and promoting joint ventures. More importantly, DPP-2008 also facilitates the concept such as "offset banking". As part of this concept, foreign vendors accumulate offset credits for two years preceding the award of a contract. However, the policy also makes it clear that offsets can be banked after getting due permission from the Government, which will examine all aspects of offset banking proposals to ensure that they are advantageous to our defence sector.

In particular, DPP-2008 promises the defence vendors advance information on procurement before floating tenders. Further, it seeks to enhance the financial powers of the Army, Navy and Air Force headquarters. Similarly, as per this policy foreign companies will be allowed to park funds in banks in anticipation of future contracts so that they need not have to manage money for the offset policy when the deal is finalized. But then this DPP makes it clear that the offset will be direct in that it will be allowed only in the defence arena. "The offset policy will be fine-tuned and allowing indirect offset is unlikely, since the Defence Ministry is extremely keen to build the indigenous sector," explains its spokesman.

"The new DPP will hasten indigenization by helping defence public sector units, the Defence Research and Development Orgnisation (DRDO0 and private industry to enter into a joint venture with foreign arms' suppliers," observes Antony. As he stated, the ultimate aim is to reduce India's dependence on foreign arms' supplies and to "ensure that our armed forces will be able to speedily procure world-class equipment from indigenous or foreign sources".

The Defence Minister also stressed the point that a strong and resurgent domestic defence industry, both in the public and private sector, could contribute to meeting the growing needs of the defence forces in a big way. The current policy encourages private participation in the defence production scenario. It also allows 28 per cent FDI in the Indian defence sector. According to Ministry sources, in the new procurement policy "suitable amendments have been effected to pave the way for speedier procurement of weapons, systems and platforms while enhancing transparency at the same time".

Importantly, Antony sees a vastly enhanced role for the local private industry in the country's defence production matrix. "It should be our endeavour to achieve the maximum synergy between defence public and private sectors, in order to create a competitive defence technology edge and strengthen the industry itself." He also expressed the view that DPP-2008 will promote indigenization and encourage wider representation of the industry on panels doing technical evaluation of indigenously designed military platforms.

Recall, till 2001, entry of private sector into India's production sector was barred. It was only after the Vijay Kelkar Committee recommended that private firms be allowed to participate in the production of arms and defence equipment that led to the opening up of the sector in a phased manner to private participation. Today, a number of Indian private entities including Tata Power, Larsen and Toubro, Mahindra and Mahindra, Kirloskar Group and Wipro have all unveiled their plans to enter the defence sector in a big way. "The role of private players has largely been at the sub contract level. Now the second step for them is to reach the sub assembly level and that will take time", says HAL Chairman Ashok.K.Baweja. A beginning has been made.

Radhakrishna Rao, -INFA


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## jaison

check this
Defense Technology International - June 2008
page 28 has some news on mrca and hawkeye e-2d to indian navy and page-30 on isro.


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## nitesh

By Siva Govindasamy

Indian companies are reaping rich rewards from the country's military modernisation programme, with the private sector increasingly competing with established players like Hindustan Aeronautics for highly lucrative contracts in the coming years.

Foreign companies must reinvest 30-50&#37; of the value of the contracts in India, and air force deals alone could result in an estimated $15-20 billion in offsets over the next decade.

"The government is keen to acquire the latest technology and benefit the local economy through these contracts," says an Indian observer.

BIGGEST PRIZE

The biggest deal is a $10-12 billion multirole combat aircraft competition, in which the successful bidder faces a 50% offset requirement.

The Boeing F/A-18E/F, Dassault Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon, Lockheed Martin F-16, the RSK MiG-35 and Saab Gripen are all in the fray for the 126-aircraft deal.

New Delhi is also keen to buy 197 military light utility helicopters for $750 million and 22 attack helicopters for $500 million, has ordered six Lockheed C-130J transports, and will imminently confirm deals for the Boeing P-8I Poseidon maritime patrol aircraft and 80 new Mil Mi-17-IV multirole helicopters.

HAL, which has had more success with licence-production than the development of its own aircraft, will continue to benefit, say observers. It will manufacture 108 of the fighters that India orders under the MRCA competition, making it a key partner for the bidders. Last year, it also signed a deal with Boeing that could see the US company outsource around $1 billion worth of manufacturing work over 10 years.

Its orderbooks are heavy with the licence-production of the BAE Systems Hawk advanced jet trainer and Sukhoi Su-30 fighter, and it will work with Russia on a medium transport aircraft and fifth-generation fighter. "HAL is the only company in India with dedicated aircraft manufacturing facilities, and so it is the logical partner for most aerospace companies," says the New Delhi-based source.

PRIVATE CHALLENGERS

HAL faces a challenge from private companies, after India issued licences to companies such as Tata Group and Larsen & Toubro to produce defence items. Software houses such as Infotech and Wipro are also keen to build their defence business.

After being limited to supplying raw materials, components or design technology for many years, these companies are looking for a bigger share of the pie.

Tata, with its experience in manufacturing and engineering, is the likeliest challenger to HAL as a lead systems integrator. In May, it signed a deal with Israel Aerospace Industries to develop and produce a range of military products. It has also signed agreements with Boeing and EADS.

"It will not be surprising if Tata outbids some of the established government-owned companies on its way to securing some big-ticket contracts from the MoD," says Laxman Kumar Behera, an associate fellow at the Institute for Defence Studies and Analyses in New Delhi.

L&T will also partner foreign companies in the MRCA competition, and has been working with the Defence Research and Development Organisation for several years on new defence products. The opening up of the defence sector will primarily benefit its heavy engineering division, which has "good prospects in the short to medium term", adds the company. It has constructed a new strategic systems complex to integrate and test weapon systems, sensors and engineering systems, and is setting up a precision manufacturing facility for defence products.

Given the emergence of India's IT industry, it is no surprise that Wipro, India's third largest software company, looks to get in on the act. It is setting up units for electronic warfare systems, radars, flight-control systems, flight simulators and engine systems for companies like BAE Systems, Lockheed and Northrop Grumman.

"Revenues from defence are small, but the big revenues will start flowing from the middle to the end of 2009," says Sudip Nandy, chief executive of telecom and product engineering services at Wipro.


India set for offset bounty


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## Keysersoze

Hey do we have ANY timeframe on this deal at all yet?


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## nitesh

Keysersoze said:


> Hey do we have ANY timeframe on this deal at all yet?



Time line according to air chief interview the trials will begin by next january and then the recommendations will be given (no time lines mentioned about the time table of testing). After then see how much time bureaucracy need to complete the deal.


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## nitesh

I think this is directing towards....
Boeing eyeing $20 billion Indian defence aircraft orders 

25 September 2008

New Delhi: Boeing's Indian arm has outlined plans to make a $20 billion bid for Indian defence aircraft orders in India over the coming 10 years. 

In a statement to Indian media, Boeing India president Ian Thomas said that Boeing's market outlook for India includes bidding for $20 billion worth defence aircrafts in the next 10 years. Boeing has bid for the F-18 Super Hornet for the Indian Air Force's contract for 126 medium, multi role combat aircraft (MMRCA).

Thomas also said that Boeing was also interested in the 1001 passenger and freighter aircraft that Boeing estimates India will need over the next 20 years. 

Boeing is also in talks with the ministry of defence for the supply of maritime surveillance aircraft, the P8I, and is also looking for a piece of the action on orders for 1001 commercial airplanes worth over $105 billion that India will need over the next 20 years. 

Boeing had earlier said that it would partner with Computational Research Laboratory (CRL), a subsidiary of the Tata Group, to test and validate one of the world's fastest supercomputers, the Indian-made Eka system. 

''The Eka system is the fourth fastest supercomputer in the world and the fastest in Asia as rated by the International Conference for High Performance Computing Networking Storage and Analysis and will be used by CRL to run a programme that will model high lift aerodynamic simulations in three dimensions for Boeing,'' said a company statement.

Boeing and Tata Industries have also agreed to form a joint-venture company that is initially expected to handle more than $500 million of defence-related aerospace component work in India for export to Boeing and its international customers. (see: Boeing, Tata Industries JV to target domestic and international defence contract work) 


domain-b.com : Boeing eyeing $20 billion Indian defence aircraft orders


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## nitesh

The Hindu : National : &#8220;MiG will win battle for tender&#8221;

&#8220;MiG will win battle for tender&#8221;

Sandeep Dikshit
NEW DELHI: United Aircraft Corporation chief Alexey Fedorov has said that he expected the MiG-35 to win the multi-billion tender for multi-role combat aircraft on the strength of Russia&#8217;s record of transferring technology.

Admitting that competition was very tough since the cr&#232;me de la cr&#232;me of the aviation industry was participating in the Indian Air Force&#8217;s tender for 126 fighter aircraft estimated at over $10 billions, Mr. Fedorov said, &#8220;We may win because of the long-term advantage of transferring know-how to India.&#8221;

Heading the UAC &#8212; a conglomerate of major Russian aviation companies, including Sukhoi, Illyushin, Tupolov and Irkut &#8212; Mr. Fedorov pointed out that Russia had in the past transferred technology of military fighters such as MiG-21, MiG-27 and Sukhoi-30 MKI. &#8220;I am sure no one would be able to transfer such intellectual know-how as Russia. Besides, another advantageous factor is that the adaptability of MiG-35 to all maintenance centres in the territory of India can be much easier,&#8221; he told journalists here.


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## Marshal

*MiG-35 has edge over rivals in Indian fighter tender: Official*3 Oct, 2008, 1931 hrs IST, PTI

MOSCOW: The MiG-35 fighters offered to India by Russia under New Delhi's USD 10 billion global tender for acquisition of 126 medium multi-role jets 
has an edge over rivals including US F-16s and F-18s, a top aviation industry official here claimed. 

"The competition is very tough, but we have several trump cards - MiG-35's superb performance characteristics and the fact that Russia and India share a long-standing partnership in strategic and political cooperation," President of United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) Alexei Fedorov told reporters after his recent India visit with Russian Defence Minister. 

He said the UAC is optimistic about MiG-35 winning the race as an advanced version of MiG-29 Fulcrum fighter in service with the Indian Air Force. 

Six major aircraft makers - Lockheed and Boeing from the US with F-16 and F-18, Russia's MiG, France's Dassault, Sweden's SAAB and EADS, a consortium of British, German, Spanish and Italian companies with Eurofighter -- are in the race for the USD 10 billion deal. 

"So far, none of the participants has met the demands of the tender put forward by the Indian Air Force," Fedorov said adding that due to its flying characteristics MiG-35 has an edge over its rivals. 

"Secondly, we have a very long history of our relationship of not only supply of readymade planes but also their licensed production in India. In case of MiG-35's victory, the Indian side would have to spend much less amount for the creation of infrastructure for the use, maintenance and servicing of this aircraft," he underscored. 

Fedorov, who was in charge of Indo-Russian Sukhoi Su-30MKI fighter development and production deal, believes that in defence cooperation the 'level of political trust' is highly important. "We have a very close bilateral political and economic ties and this is our third advantage." MiG-35 has edge over rivals in Indian fighter tender: Official- Politics/Nation-News-The Economic Times


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## ejaz007

*Indian Air Force MRCA Deal to be Finalized Very Soon: Air Chief Marshal Fali Major*
Dated 4/10/2008


India said on Friday it was gearing up to seal military contracts worth billions of dollars including a massive fighter jet deal which has prompted a dogfight among global aeronautical giants.

India's move to buy 126 fighter jets worth 12 billion dollars was in its final stages with evaluations of six shortlisted aircraft set to begin next year, Air Chief Marshal Fali Major told a news conference. "A number of projects now are reaching a conclusion," Major said in New Delhi, referring to contracts due to be awarded. "The Indian air force is in a state of transformation and we are on the way to modernization," he said.

*US-based Boeing and Lockheed Martin, Russian MiG, Sweden's Saab and French Dassault are vying for the world's richest fighter jet deal in 15 years.
Industry sources said Lockheed Martin's F-16 or Boeing's Super Hornet have already emerged as front runners.*

The military official's statements came a day after the US Senate endorsed a US-India nuclear deal, removing all hurdles for the resumption of civilian nuclear trade between the two countries after more than three decades.

Experts say the deal will also open doors for the military to buy technology which had been banned for export to India after the US slapped sanctions on the country following its 1998 nuclear weapons tests. US defence contractors have been lobbying hard to secure deals with India. Major's comments came less than a week after India and its main arms exporter Russia extended their military ties by 10 years with the sale of 347 tanks and talks on collaboration on a fifth-generation fighter jet.

Most of the big-ticket hardware from countries including Britain, France, Israel, Russia and the United States is destined for the technology-hungry air force. "The Indian air force needs the capability to support India's resurgent growth and so we are phasing out old equipment with new hardware," Major said.
The air force will also buy six Hercules transport planes from Lockheed Martin for 968 million dollars and will begin final talks for six air-to-air refuelling planes with either Airbus or the Russians this month, Major said.

The first of two Israeli Phalcon Airborne Warning and Control System radar systems worth 1.1 billion dollars would reach India in January, other officials said. Major, meanwhile, also said India had begun upgrading its military installations and airbases on the border with China to counter any possible threat from its giant Asian neighbour.

"A comprehensive infrastructure development programme has been undertaken in the northeast where roads and advanced landing grounds are being beefed up," he said. "By 2009 we would have our Sukhoi-30 multi-role fighter jets deployed on the eastern sector," Major said as other officials said military engineers were working at high speed to fortify the Sino-Indian border.

The Indian military says China has also built strategic roads and air fields close to disputed frontier regions. The two populous countries which have fought a brief but a bitter border war in 1962 still have territorial disputes that not been resolved despite 13 rounds of high-level talks.


Indian Air Force MRCA Deal to be Finalized Very Soon: Air Chief Marshal Fali Major | India Defence


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## nitesh

Seems like after the nuclear deal the balance is shifting towards the Super hornet. But let us see what other contenders come up with.


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## Black Stone

nitesh said:


> Seems like after the nuclear deal the balance is shifting towards the Super hornet. But let us see what other contenders come up with.



It does look like it, by the way, which does India prefer? the Falcon or the super bug? The former leads to a possible F-35 future deal.


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## nitesh

Black Stone said:


> It does look like it, by the way, which does India prefer? the Falcon or the super bug? The former leads to a possible F-35 future deal.



The whole thing depends upon the level of Tot offered. Which one gives more will be the winner. But IAF recommendation also matters here. Between super bug and falcon hmmm difficult choice.


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## ejaz007

There is alot more at stake then just 126 fighters. Switching from Russian to non Russian weapon system might bring some short term roblems for the IAF. What if Russian increase the price for the spares they are selling and also start delaying the delivery of the parts. 
Then you shall have to induct a new technology and inventory. One needs time to absorb new systems. In retaliation for not getting the contract what if Russia offers fighters to Pakistan.
In short a lot may be at stake then just the order. Lets wait and see.


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## nitesh

ejaz007 said:


> There is alot more at stake then just 126 fighters. Switching from Russian to non Russian weapon system might bring some short term roblems for the IAF. What if Russian increase the price for the spares they are selling and also start delaying the delivery of the parts.
> Then you shall have to induct a new technology and inventory. One needs time to absorb new systems. In retaliation for not getting the contract what if Russia offers fighters to Pakistan.
> In short a lot may be at stake then just the order. Lets wait and see.



Now ezaz these are just talking in air simply without having any logic behind it. Why they will increase the price of the things. Just because they lost in some competition? Well i don't think so. Because PAK FA is also in line. Well if russia offers fighters to pakistan. Well good, if you can buy buy it.

Regarding the induction and inventory. Well that needs to be done. But it is justified for this huge numbers.


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## Contrarian

Buying Russian is difficult to image-for now. Buying the MiG 35 would make our entire Airforce fleet of Russian Origin-which would make IAF completely dependent on Russia. I highly doubt if the MiG 35 wins.

It might even turn out to be Gripen-for neutrality's sake!


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## nitesh

Nope I think gripen's chances are lower as the ToT issues will come in to picture. How they will give the ToT of the equipments that are owned by USA. USA can simply turn the favor in there way. I think as of now F 18 is the front runner with it's proven AESA and the range of weapons it can carry.


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## Contrarian

I dont think they'd go with the US either. That for sure is going to piss the Russians apart from being dependent on the US for something as major as this!

I think its a 3 way competition b/w Rafale, Typhoon and the Gripen.

MRCA is as much about politics as it is about technology.


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## Myth_buster_1

malaymishra123 said:


> I dont think they'd go with the US either. That for sure is going to piss the Russians apart from being dependent on the US for something as major as this!
> 
> I think its a 3 way competition b/w Rafale, Typhoon and the Gripen.
> 
> MRCA is as much about politics as it is about technology.



 IAF is pretty reluctant to buy US orders.. India's shift of policy and more closer ties with US is going to pay off.. Nuclear deal has also assured that US will win the orders. FA-18 is a more realistic choice for IAF which will supplement MKIs. you can mark my words.. Boeing will win this contract this was probibly decided 2-3 years ago but india just wants to drag this contenders to attract more defense companies.. i mean come on think . all this is publicity stunt.. this way IAF will also attract more boys for the air force.. 
mean while.. india will try to make ruski papa satisfy by buying couple of mig-29K squadrons.. 
in another words. EF-2000 Rafale and typhoon are too expensive.. IAF will be better off with Su-50s.


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## JEFF

23march said:


> IAF is pretty reluctant to buy US orders.. India's shift of policy and more closer ties with US is going to pay off.. Nuclear deal has also assured that US will win the orders. FA-18 is a more realistic choice for IAF which will supplement MKIs. you can mark my words.. Boeing will win this contract this was probibly decided 2-3 years ago but india just wants to drag this contenders to attract more defense companies.. i mean come on think . all this is publicity stunt.. this way IAF will also attract more boys for the air force..
> mean while.. india will try to make ruski papa satisfy by buying couple of mig-29K squadrons..
> in another words. EF-2000 Rafale and typhoon are too expensive.. IAF will be better off with Su-50s.




Don't you think those F/A-18EF alongwith all other ammunitions are expensive either?


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## Myth_buster_1

JEFF said:


> Don't you think those F/A-18EF alongwith all other ammunitions are expensive either?



 then is any of those MRCA not expensive? india has been inducting just about any US Israeli armaments for MKI and possibly for 120 new MRCA use..


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## Black Stone

I think if India sees the Lightning II in their future inventory then they should go for the Falcon.


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## nitesh

10.2 billion dollars is good money plus the winner gets an advantage in future orders. The F 18 and rafale/typhoon is a good choice because boeing is going to come up with Block III version also, whereas rafale/typhoon being a comparatively new platform can see lot of upgrades. Russia has less chances because they already have too much on beg. But they can win if the come up with some really good offer. The F 16 is almost getting end of it's life in USAF with F 35 coming online. So until lockheed comes up with and idea of providing f 35 as a future roadmap. it's chances looks bleak. regarding Gripen it is a dark horse. It is using US technology, weapons. So I don't know how they can be a neutral choice. When u want US technology then why not buy from US.


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## Nihat

guys , I found this on BR 



> this news is all over the indian media - here is the english version:
> 
> &#8216;France clears technology transfer for Rafale fighter&#8217;
> 
> Paris, Nov 05: The French government has cleared the full transfer of technology for the Rafale combat jet that is one of the six aircraft in contention for an Indian Air Force (IAF) order for 126 fighters in a deal worth USD 10 billion, its manufacturer Dassault Aviation says.
> 
> "When we talk about technology transfer, we mean full technology transfer and not in bits and pieces," JPHP Chabriol, Dassault's senior vice president for military sales, told a group of visiting Indian journalists at the company's headquarters here.
> 
> "The way we work, we first have to obtain clearance of the government before putting in our proposal. If we win the order, we can begin work on transferring technology from day one - unlike our competition," he added.
> 
> The technology transfer would include that of a cutting edge radar that gives the Rafale the ability to also function as a close battlefield support airborne warning and control system (AWACS), Chabriol maintained, adding that the software source code would also be provided with the equipment.
> 
> The Advanced Extended Search Array (AESA) radar that Dassault is offering is still under development by French aerospace giant Thales, a partner in the Rafale project, and is expected to be integrated with the aircraft by 2012, around which time the IAF is expected to narrow down its choice of aircraft.
> 
> "We have full faith in the competency of Thales to deliver a top of the line AESA radar," Chabriol added.
> 
> Transfer of technology is a key clause in the Defence Policy-2006 (DPP-2006) that governs India's purchases of military hardware. Two other companies in the fray - Boeing and European conglomerate Eurofighter - are also offering an AESA radar with their F/A-18 Super Hornet and Typhoon respectively but say the transfer of this technology would be dependent to the extent the American government permits as the radar's manufacturer is US electronics giant Raytheon.
> 
> At least one of these two companies has said they would definitely not transfer the software source code that enables the programming of the radar. What this means is that the IAF would have to specify the mission parameters to enable the manufacturer configure the radar.
> 
> Defence analysts point out that this could seriously compromise India's national security as the IAF would not be able to re-programme the radar should it wish to at a later stage.
> 
> "This is not an issue with us. We will not only fully transfer the technology for the AESA radar but also provide the software source code so that that the IAF can programme it in the way it wishes to," Chabriol said in response to a specific query.
> 
> Apart from the Rafale, the F/A-18 and the Typhoon, the other aircraft in the fray are the Lockheed Martin F-16, the Saab Grippen and the MiG-35, which is essentially an upgraded version of the MiG-29 that the IAF already operates.
> 
> The IAF had floated its global tender for the jets in September 2007 and these were opened earlier this year. The technical bids are currently being evaluated after which all the six aircraft will be put through a rigorous testing process in Bangalore, Jaisalmer and Leh.
> 
> The first is meant to gauge the aircraft's ability to operate in the humid conditions of south, the second their effectiveness in the deserts of Rajasthan and the third to study their suitability in the icy Himalayan heights of Ladakh in Jammu and Kashmir.
> 
> By the time the evaluation process is complete, the size of the order is likely to rise to around 200 jets, as the IAF, which is down to 32 squadrons from a high of 39-1/2, is expected to see a further depletion of its fleet due to the retirement of some its ageing Soviet-era MiG-21 aircraft. The IAF has a sanctioned strength of 45 squadrons.
> 
> Chabriol also pointed out that being 100 percent French gave Dassault a distinct edge over its competitors on the technology transfer issue.
> 
> "The Grippen is powered by a US engine and has other US components too. Similar is the case with the Eurofighter, which has quite a few American parts. So, they would have to first seek the US government's approval. In the case of the F-18, approval would have to be sought not only of the government but also of parliament (the US Congress).
> 
> "This legislative approval is not an issue in our case," Chabriol added.
> 
> IANS



I found this article on aajtak and if it's true then it should give Rafael a distinct edge as it was one of the front runners already and this just puts them ahead even furthur.


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## nitesh

you will here more news's like this soon, every body is trying to sell off there product. So let's wait and watch for the evaluations to begin


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## nitesh

Just wanted to add here that as snecma is working with GTRE for engine of LCA so if the same engine can be fixed on rafale then it will drastically reduce the logistics cost. It will be a good choice.


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## ejaz007

*Dassault ups the ante with full technology transfer for Rafale news *
05 November 2008 


Paris: The French government has cleared full technology transfer for Dassault's Rafale combat jet, one of the six contenders for the Indian Air Force's (IAF) 126 multi-role medium range combat aircraft (MMRCA) tender, which is estimated to be eventually worth atleast $11 billion over its lifetime.

Briefing Indian media representatives at its Champs-Elysées, Paris, headquarters Dassault Aviation's senior vice president for military sales, JPHP Chabriol, said, ''When we talk about technology transfer, we mean full technology transfer and not in bits and pieces.'' 

''The way we work, we first have to obtain clearance of the government before putting in our proposal. If we win the order, we can begin work on transferring technology from day one - unlike our competition,'' he added.

Critically for India, the transfer-of-technology (T-o-T) would include that of a state-of-the-art Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar that would provide Rafale the ability to also function as a close battlefield support airborne warning and control system (AWACS), apart from its designed function as a fighter. The AESA radar T-o-T would also include transfer of software source code, according to Chabriol. 

This is a matter of great concern for India, or any country, that seeks T-o-T of sensitive equipment. Lack of access to the source code would not allow a country to re-programme a radar or any sensitive equipment should it so wish. 

Defence analysts point out that this could seriously compromise India's national security as the IAF would not be able to re-programme the radar should it wish to at a later stage.

The AESA radar on offer from Dassault is still under development by French aerospace giant Thales and is expected to be integrated with the aircraft by 2012. This is roughly the time the selected aircraft from the MMRCA tender may be expected to enter IAF service.

''We have full faith in the competency of Thales to deliver a top of the line AESA radar,'' Chabriol added.

Two other competing fighters Boeing's F/A-18 Super Hornet and the European conglomerate Eurofighter's Typhoon are also being made available with AESA radars though with the provision that transfer of technology for this equipment would be dependent on the decision of their respective governments.

Earlier statements from manufacturers of AESA radars has been categorical about the fact that transfer of source code is not on the cards. Since source code enables programming of the radar, what this implies is that the IAF would have to specify mission parameters to foreign manufacturers to enable configuration of their radar, seriously compromising security in the process. 

''This is not an issue with us. We will not only fully transfer the technology for the AESA radar but also provide the software source code so that that the IAF can programme it in the way it wishes to,'' Chabriol informed journalists. 

Apart from the Rafale, the F/A-18 and the Typhoon, other MMRCA contenders are the Lockheed Martin F-16, Saab Gripen and the MiG-35.

The technical bids for the MMRCA tender are currently being evaluated after which all six aircraft will be put through a rigorous testing process at Bangalore, Jaisalmer and Leh.

While Bangalore as as a location is meant to test the ability of these aircraft to operate in the humid conditions of south, Jaisalmer would test their effectiveness in the deserts of Rajasthan while Leh would test their suitability in the Himalayan heights of Ladakh.

The MMRCA tender is meant to replace legacy MiG-21 and other fighters and raise IAF's squadron strength to atleast 39, from the current depleted level of 32.

Chabriol also pointed out that being 100 per cent French also provided Dassault a distinct edge over its competitors on the issue of technology transfer.

''The Gripen is powered by a US engine and has other US components too. Similar is the case with the Eurofighter, which has quite a few American parts. So, they would have to first seek the US government's approval. In the case of the F-18, approval would have to be sought not only of the government but also of parliament (the US Congress).

''This legislative approval is not an issue in our case,'' Chabriol said.


domain-b.com : Dassault ups the ante with full technology transfer for Rafale


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## nitesh

can we give some more twist

originally IAF wanted Mirage2k but it got delayed and now the MRCA tender is running.
Snecma is with GTRE to develop a new engine which will be used by LCA which will have the same core as used in rafale and perhaps MCA also
now this full ToT news
isn't it looks like a writing on the wall?


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## ejaz007

*MMRCA: Updates and Developments*


*Nov 6/08:* India Defence reays concerns from Dassault Aviations senior vice president for military sales J.P.H.P. Chabriol. After observing that the Rafale, F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and Eurofighter constitute one tier of price and capabilities, and the F-16, JAS-39 Gripen, and MiG-35 constitute another, he adds that:

The IAFs RFP (request for proposal), in the first analysis, in terms of performance, is not extremely demanding. We dont want a situation where the other three aircraft are compliant with the RFP but we lose out on the price differential. The IAF has to decide whether it wants a heavy aircraft or a light aircraft. Quite obviously, there would be a price differential if a single or a twin-engine jet is chosen. If India takes the L-1 (lowest tender) route this would be unfair because we have a good product but this quality comes at a price.

It shoud be remembered that Dassault withdrew its own Mirage 2000 lightweight fighter from the MMRCA competition before the RFP was finalized. Chabriol reportedly added that Dassault had made an unsolicited offer of 40 Rafales as well, presumably as an inducement toward a dual platform high-low MMRCA buy. India Defence.

*Nov 5/08:* domain-b reports that Frances government gas approved full technology transfer for the Rafale fighter, including the AESA radar currently under development for that platform. The decision could also have corollary benefits for Saabs Gripen, as Saab is currently engaged in a joint development arrangement with Thales around the RB2 for its JAS-39 Gripen NG.

Dassault Aviations senior vice president for military sales J.P.H.P. Chabriol added that Source code transfer would be included. This is a major step, as it would enable the IAF to program the radars itself without having to specify mission parameters to foreign manufacturers. Chabroil also pointed to the lack of American components in the Rafale, which generates concern in some Indian quarters despite sbstantially improved relations with Washington:

The Gripen is powered by a US engine and has other US components too. Similar is the case with the Eurofighter, which has quite a few American parts. So, they would have to first seek the US governments approval. In the case of the F-18, approval would have to be sought not only of the government but also of parliament [US Congress]. This legislative approval is not an issue in our case.

*Oct 7/08:* A domain-b report quotes Alexei Fyodorov, chief of Russias United Aircraft Corporation (UAC). Fyodorov says what hes expected to say, then adds an interesting allegation:

The competition is very tough, but we have several trump cards  the MiG-35s superb performance characteristics and the fact that Russia and India share a long-standing partnership in strategic and political cooperation. So far, none of the participants has met the demands of the tender put forward by the Indian air force. 

*Sept 10/08:* Saab announces a letter of intent with Tata Consultancy Services Limited (TCS), regarding establishment of an Aeronautical Design and Development Centre (ADDC) in India. The centre is not aimed at any particular program but will explore market opportunities in areas such as aero structures, aero systems, avionics and after market support for both military and civil aeronautical applications. Saab release.

India&#8217;s MMRCA Fighter Competition

Its a long article and I have only posted the latest updates. It seems the battle is heating up and with the passage of time new issues will come up.


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## p2prada

We should go with Rafale. We can license build the AESA, airframe and also incorporate the kaveri engine into the rafale. It would make us less dependent on the french for spare parts. The use of composite materials also helps us in maintaining the craft easily.


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## nitesh

Agree with you seems like rafale is going to be the winner as the engine can be kept the same apart from that they are agreeing for the ToT portion. Somehow I feel that the writing is on the wall (MRCA tender came up because of delay in purchasing the mirages IAF love mirage so may be they have tilt towards the rafale too)


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## nitesh

outlookindia.com | wired



> On the 126 fighter jets, he said that the *technical evaluation was coming to an end and IAF expected to wrap up the work in a month or so. The IAF expected flight evaluation to take place early next year, he said.*


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## ejaz007

Does this mean doors are opening for PAF to acquire Russian fighters.


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## nitesh

ejaz007 said:


> Does this mean doors are opening for PAF to acquire Russian fighters.



I hadn't got your logic but according to your ACM interview there is no plan for any other except JF 17 and J 10 and some f 16 for fighters (Posted by fatman sir)


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## Keysersoze

p2prada said:


> We should go with Rafale. We can license build the AESA, airframe and also incorporate the kaveri engine into the rafale. It would make us less dependent on the french for spare parts. The use of composite materials also helps us in maintaining the craft easily.



Hmmm yes maybe you can make it smaller and shorter too? Or is this just wishful thinking?the KAveri is underpowered for light aircraft and now you want it for the Rafale?MAybe you want to buy a Ferrari and put a Tractor engine in there too?
The more you speak the less I realise you know.


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## nitesh

Keysersoze said:


> Hmmm yes maybe you can make it smaller and shorter too? Or is this just wishful thinking?the KAveri is underpowered for light aircraft and now you want it for the Rafale?MAybe you want to buy a Ferrari and put a Tractor engine in there too?
> The more you speak the less I realise you know.


Key you twisted the whole thing like anything . He said that kaveri snecma JV engine to be used as common for both rafale and LCA


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## Keysersoze

nitesh said:


> Key you twisted the whole thing like anything . He said that kaveri snecma JV engine to be used as common for both rafale and LCA



The JV engine would be for the LCA. A TOTALLY different airframe. its a different matter sticking it into a twin engine aircraft. One or the other would have to be redesigned. EITHER way it would entail FURTHER delays.

Oh and having seen the guy lecture veteran fighter pilots on ACM his credentials are not high.


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## p2prada

Keysersoze said:


> The JV engine would be for the LCA. A TOTALLY different airframe. its a different matter sticking it into a twin engine aircraft. One or the other would have to be redesigned.



The engine that initially powered the RAFALE was the GE F-404, similar to the one being flown on the LCA. The Kaveri with a few aditional modifications can be used on the Rafale. Anyways, Rafale and LCA have a delta wing config making it more similar than different as you claim.



> EITHER way it would entail FURTHER delays.



It will be a good 5 years before we actually see the MRCA fighters being inducted. By then Kaveri will be ready.




> Oh and having seen the guy lecture veteran fighter pilots on ACM his credentials are not high.



Go read up on the posts. They are twisting whatever I say and giving a completely different picture compared to my views.


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## nitesh

DNA - Mumbai - IAFs flying coffins may finally rest in peace - Daily News & Analysis


*He said the technical evaluation of the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) has been done. The IAF hoped to start its flight evaluation by February 2009. India plans to acquire 126 MMRCAs and three to four global players were competing for the contract, he said.*


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## nitesh

domain-b.com : Dassault Aviation and Tata Technologies sign MoU for MMRCA offsets

Dassault Aviation and Tata Technologies sign MoU for MMRCA offsets

London, Pune, India and Detroit: Dassault Aviation and INCAT's parent company, Tata Technologies, have signed a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) for Engineering Services Outsourcing (ESO), services. Under the terms of the MoU, INCAT will provide Dassault Aviation with engineering services in a number of critical domains in support of the Indian Air Force's 126 fighter multi-role medium range combat aircraft (MMRCA) programme.

The programme involves significant industrial offset requirements, up to 50 per cent.

Image: Dassault AviationWhile the bulk of the services will be delivered mostly from the recently established joint venture INCAT HAL Aerostructures Ltd (IHAL) and its dedicated aerospace ESO centre in Bangalore, some others will be supplied through INCAT's delivery teams in France and the US.

The joint venture will be the Preferred Delivery Centre for both organizations with both HAL and Tata Technologies 50 per cent partners in the venture.

M. Fakruddin, Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd's, director, corporate planning and marketing, said "the objective of this joint venture is to undertake work packages related to engineering design services in aerostructures, and also the captive offshore and on-site work load of both partners from aerospace OEMs, including offset programmes."

Founded in 1989, INCAT is a Tata Technologies company providing services in product lifecycle management, enterprise resource management and application development and maintenance.

The company is headquartered in Novi, Michigan, Pune and Stuttgart.

The agreement testifies INCAT's expertise in the aerospace market. Eric Trappier, executive vice-president international of Dassault Aviation says: "It is essential to find partners with the right expertise and experience in both aerospace engineering and working in India. INCAT and Tata Technologies have proven credentials in both these areas."

Lokesh Srivastava, CEO of IHAL, comments: "This MoU marks a significant milestone since the formation of IHAL and is a sure sign of the solid demand for our services."

As for Dassault Aviation it has delivered more than 7500 civil and military aircraft to 75 countries logging some 20 million flight hours to date over the past sixty years

Dassault Aviation's association with India is itself half a century old. From the Toofani fighters supplied in the 1950's to the Mystere IV, the Jaguar manufactured under licence by HAL, to the Mirage 2000 it has been a rich relationship.


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## daredevil

^^^
Does that mean Rafale has been selected or all the vendors have to sign a MoU on Offsets even before participating in flight evaluations. I'm confused.


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## nitesh

daredevil said:


> ^^^
> Does that mean Rafale has been selected or all the vendors have to sign a MoU on Offsets even before participating in flight evaluations. I'm confused.



Even Boeing has signed a similar contract in case if they win. The technical evaluation is over and field trials have to begin by next 1-2 months. Then IAF will submit it's preference and then the negotiation committee will give the final clearance.


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## ejaz007

*IAF MRCA Deal: Dassault Seeks "Level Playing Field" with Boeing, MiG, Lockheed Martin*
Dated 6/11/2008


French aviation major Dassault, whose Rafale fighter is one of the six aircraft in the fray for a $10 billion Indian Air Force (IAF) order for 126 combat jets, has sought a level playing field in the competition, saying two sets of mismatched planes are in the fray and that it does not want to lose out on this count.

'The Rafale, as a twin-engine aircraft, is a heavier jet and is in the same class as the (Boeing) F/A-18 Super Hornet and the (Eurofighter) Typhoon. The other three aircraft are in the lighter variety' J.P.H.P. Chabriol, Dassault Aviation's senior vice president for military sales, told a group of visiting Indian journalists at the companys headquarters here.

'The IAFs RFP (request for proposal), in the first analysis, in terms of performance, is not extremely demanding. We dont want a situation where the other three aircraft are compliant with the RFP but we lose out on the price differential,' Chabriol added.

'The IAF has to decide whether it wants a heavy aircraft or a light aircraft,' he contended.

The other aircraft in the fray are the Lockheed Martin F-16, the Saab Grippen and the MiG-35. The first two are single-engine aircraft while the third has a twin power plant but is considered a lighter jet since it is essentially an upgraded version of the MiG-29 that the IAF currently operates.

What concerned Chabriol was that the price of the jet would depend on whether a light or a heavy aircraft got the IAF nod.

Quite obviously, there would be a price differential if a single or a twin-engine jet is chosen. If India takes the L-1 (lowest tender) route this would be unfair because we have a good product but this quality comes at a price, he maintained.

In this context, Chabriol noted that Dassault had made an unsolicited offer for selling 40 Rafale aircraft to India, an indication that the company would not be too disappointed if it did not win the larger order.

We have had a presence in India since independence (in 1947) The first jet that the IAF flew was the Toofani, followed by the Mystere and the Mirage-2000 (that entered squadron service in the 1980s). Then, your navy has flown the Alize. The Rafale would be the logical next step, he pointed out.

'Three of your former air chiefs (Air Chief Marshals A.Y. Tipnis, S. Krishnaswamy and S.P. Tyagi) have flown the Rafale and certified it to be a good aircraft. There is no reason why we should not get the order,' Chabriol contended.

Dassault is the prime contractor for the Rafale, which is currently in operation with the French Navy and the French Air Force. It has also entered into collaborations with a number of French companies to supply various systems for the aircraft. Primary among these companies are electronics major Thales, which has supplied 90 percent of the optronics for the fighter, and Snecma, which supplies the engines.

In addition, the company has floated Rafale International to co-market the aircraft.

The IAF had floated its global tender for the jets in September 2007 and these were opened earlier this year. The technical bids are currently being evaluated after which all the six aircraft will be put through a rigorous testing process in Bangalore, Jaisalmer and Leh.

The first is meant to gauge the aircraft's ability to operate in the humid conditions of south, the second their effectiveness in the deserts of Rajasthan and the third to study their suitability in the icy Himalayan heights of Ladakh in Jammu and Kashmir.

By the time the evaluation process is complete, the size of the order is likely to rise to around 200 jets, as the IAF, which is down to 32 squadrons from a high of 39 1/2, is expected to see a further depletion of its fleet due to the retirement of some its ageing Soviet-era MiG-21 aircraft. The IAF has a sanctioned strength of 45 squadrons.

IAF MRCA Deal: Dassault Seeks "Level Playing Field" with Boeing, MiG, Lockheed Martin | India Defence


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## nitesh

Kinda old news, but it's just making right noises now. They have already said they will give full ToT for rafale.


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## Moscow

http://www.acig.org/artman/uploads/barsik.jpg
the new mig 35 radar The 250 kg NIIP Bars-29 'Barsik' is a development of the original Bars-30MKI


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## nitesh

pitching for MRCA 

EADS Defence plans new industrial base in India | Reuters

EADS Defence plans new industrial base in India
Tue Jan 13, 2009 7:01pm IST

NEWPORT, Wales, Jan 13 (Reuters) - EADS' (EAD.PA: Quote, Profile, Research) defence unit is set to announce a new operation in India, possibly via an acquisition, as it targets further expansion overseas, a senior company executive said on Tuesday.

"We are preparing to set up an industrial base in India -- we have a dedicated team working on it," the French group's defence and security chief Stefan Zoller told reporters, adding that the group was in advanced talks.

"The most booming market for defence that has not already been captured is India ... also there are many skilled engineers in India," he said.

Zoller was speaking on the sidelines of the annual EADS press conference, held at one of the group's manufacturing centres in Britain. [ID:nLD182163]

He also said he expected to deliver the full quota of Eurofighter planes to countries which had placed orders, despite an effort by the UK and Italy to renegotiate the final tranche of 88 planes.

Britain, Italy, Germany and Spain originally agreed to take 620 fighter planes in three stages.

Zoller said he wanted a deal secured by the end of the first quarter of 2009 and expected it to involve the delivery of half the planes now and half later.

"The industry understands it must expect (just) half now, but it can't accept that the overall order for 620 planes will be compromised," he said. (Reporting by John Bowker and Tim Hepher; Editing by David Holmes)


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## nitesh

guys Gripen is out it seems:

5 in fray for IAF&#39;s &#36;10-bn deal for 126 aircraft



> According to sources, based on the recommendations made by the TEC, after examining the technical bids, the *Swedish "JAS 39 Gripen" has failed to make grade* on the technology front for the deal. "The recommendations were made last week and now the ministry of defence has to take a final decision on this," sources explained.


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## nitesh

LCA, buddy what do you think this competition is heading. After Gripen NG is out from competition


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## LCA

nitesh said:


> LCA, buddy what do you think this competition is heading. After Gripen NG is out from competition



Let me Take one by one:

*F-16 And F-18:*Both are US contender so TOT will be a problem.And F-16 is going to phase out when F-35 come into action,similar is the case for F-18 but its F-18E/F block is very advance jet and may be indian navy go for it, not sure about this.And there is absolute no for F-16 because our friend pakistan have lot of hands on experience on this plane.

*Rafael*:TOT is not a big issue.And with new Asea RBE-2(AA) it will be a good choice.Also,IAF can take it as upgradation of M2K.But cost is the issue.

*EF*:no problem expect price and the no. of countries involved in this project,which can be or cannot be a problem

so, i am going for either EF or Rafael.

Now,if this possible,just for hypothesis,if we can fix kaveri and indian asea then the logistic part can be drastically reduced.

As both Rafael and EF want india to join in their development programe or ready for TOT.

What you say


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## nitesh

Please spell the competitors correct it is RAFALE not RAFAEL (Israeli company)

You just missed the MiG35 don't count Russians out at least as yet. The gentleman who has made the MKI deal is heading MiG now. 


I am not in favor of EF as the member countries especially UK is interested towards F 35 for carriers so I don't think they will be interested much in to EF in future. Same will stand for other countries also.

Regarding rafale it is an excellent machine and there last chance to grab such a big order.

I don't think IAF will be interested in F 16 until Lockheed can offer the F 35 in future.

If we see F 18 has a good chance as US navy will be operating it and it is quite a mature platform. Recently IAF has rejected snecma offer for co development of kaveri engine. Now EJ 200 and GE 414 are in fray for engine going to power LCA. F 18 also uses GE 414.

What you say


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## LCA

IAF should not go for Mig-35 as it will increase the dependency on russia And after Gorshkov and T-90 hell no.

I think we both agree about F-16 selection ,even Lockheed offer f-35 then also there is a long line of customer before india.so it is better to keep away from it.

Now EF, yes UK is going for F-35 for her 2 aircraft carrier.but for ground support they can go for EF.Apart from this, EF is most advance fighter in the present time after F-22 , in the line of Su-30 MKI,F-18 and Rafale(is it correct?)

Yes F-18 uses 414 but that is a temporary solution as far as DRDO is concern.
It is a great fighter for navy but not so sure about ground support in desert and high altitude.but the main problem is *TOT* not even for aesa radar
and also various agreement about the usage of US technology

For Rafale, as you say it is a excellent machine and IAF already have infrastructure for M2K which can be use for rafale.Ready for TOT.

that's why EF or rafale will be better


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## nitesh

Rafale is a true multi role fighter and we can squeeze french as of now because they desperately need some big customer. But regarding the type of weapons and net centric operations. F 18 is way ahead. But yes ToT is a big issue.


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## LCA

As you say we can squeeze french for now, so we can ask them to make rafale capable of carring any type of weapon and also work with DRDO to put rafale in to the network-centric model which IAF is asking for.

And also may be American equipment are war-proven but you cann't say they are the best.French are very good in their avionics, that's why DRDO go for them in ABM and SU-30MKI.


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## nitesh

French have already said that they will share the source codes also. So customization should not be an issue. Any way the best thing would be to let the trials begin. Then we will be coming to know about IAF preferences. But any way final decision is with political leadership.


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## LCA

yeah, *the political leadership*,that where talking logical make no sense.
i only hope that IAF make best out of this deal.


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## nitesh

oops Gripen says they are very much in competition:

Gripen Denies It Failed MMRCA Evaluation | AVIATION WEEK


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## Moscow

sir i would like to float an idea 
is there any possibilty that the deal might be split between 2 contenders with a minor increase < or without increase >in the numbers from 126 to say 156.
in that way the deal can be divided between the russian and french if iaf is satisfied with their performance it wont be much of a technical hazard as iaf has the infrastructure and handling of both russian and french fighters.

even this might apply to the us companies.
is it anyhow possible?


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## nitesh

moscow the deal contains an option of buying 126 and then future option of 74 more. The splitting idea seems good as at least it can increase the rate of induction. With force number declining it will be good. But will the companies agree to offer the same level of ToT if suppose the order is broken up between two entities and both get order for 100 planes? This will be tricky situation.


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## Moscow

ok sir lets assume this the original tender goes to the french and even i personally believe theirs is the best to suit the iaf needs.
even then the rest 74 can be procured from mig, actually mig is in a deep finincial crisis ,its awaiting funds from the goverment and its no secret sukhoi has recently cut its market worldwide so they are always willing to consider their decesion,the indians can bargain hard with the mig corp for additional incentives for the future which they will be more than willing to supply.

all these scenerio comes up when the americans if the americans are not willing for full tot.

given the present political situation it will be very hard to choose betwwen the americans and russians so the french might be the best option


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## Moscow

also we neeed to consider that recent orders from the indians have all gone to the americans.it might be a signal that the indians are not willing to irk the americans by giving them other big procurement deals while the mrca goes to the french or the russians.


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## nitesh

moscow said:


> ok sir lets assume this the original tender goes to the french and even i personally believe theirs is the best to suit the iaf needs.
> even then the rest 74 can be procured from mig, actually mig is in a deep finincial crisis ,its awaiting funds from the goverment and its no secret sukhoi has recently cut its market worldwide so they are always willing to consider their decesion,the indians can bargain hard with the mig corp for additional incentives for the future which they will be more than willing to supply.
> 
> all these scenerio comes up when the americans if the americans are not willing for full tot.
> 
> given the present political situation it will be very hard to choose betwwen the americans and russians so the french might be the best option



let me give a different perspective here. IN is going to release RFP for second line of subs. IN will definitely ask that it should carry BrahMos you can look in to the threads here. My personal choice will be of Amur 1950 model. The RFP will be of 30000 crore (1 billion USD = 5000 crore). Quite a big order. So Russia is going to get one big order. Apart from this deal regarding Schhuka B subs is going rounds. 

All this was to just say that money can be diverted here and there. 

But I am not averse of idea of what you said it will be really good if MiG offers that instead of upgrading the MiG29 which ar more then 60 in inventory why not go for 120 MiG35. It may sound insane but quite possible with the gentleman in charge of MiG who has closed the MKI deal. 

US will no way give full ToT.

Regarding the political situation leave it. India and Russia deals goes in a different level. Already w more reactor deal is signed. Chandrayaan 2 will carry Russian rover. In GLONASS 4 satellites have to launched by India.


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## nitesh

moscow said:


> also we neeed to consider that recent orders from the indians have all gone to the americans.it might be a signal that the indians are not willing to irk the americans by giving them other big procurement deals while the mrca goes to the french or the russians.



For US industry this is the best chance to get in to IAF so they will pull every string possible from wherever possible


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## Moscow

does the us at any point consider selling the jsf to the iaf in the near future if they go for f-16 as its mrca then it might get interesting.


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## nitesh

There was one news item came in 2007 I think after then no news all speculation only.


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## nitesh

TIMESNOW.tv - Latest Breaking News, Big News Stories, News Videos -

*Eyeing the mega deal for 126 multi-role combat aircraft with India, France on Saturday (January 17) said it expected "fair competition" and equal treatment by New Delhi to all the bidders in the selection process. France, whose Rafale fighter plane is a competitor for the mega deal, is keeping its fingers crossed as it recently lost a contract for 197 military helicopters, due to "severity of rules" in India.*

&#8220;We are participating in a competition ... We know there is competition and we know in India, competition is to be taken by the word," French President Nicolas Sarkozy's Diplomatic Adviser Jean-David Levitte told reporters in New Delhi. Noting that Indian rules are strict, he said, "We were victims of the severity of these rules (in helicopter deal) last year.

But we accept the rules provided all competitors are treated in same way. It is fair competition that we want," he said. *He claimed Rafale fighters are the best next generation planes and it would bag the deal if the competition is fair.*

Developed by French major Dassault, Rafale is a twin-engined multi-role fighter aircraft and is being produced both for land-based and ship-based operations. The aircraft was last year inducted for operations over Afghanistan by France. Rafale is competing with American F/A-18 and F-16, Russian MiG-35 and Swedish Gripen for the over $10 billion 126 aircraft contract.

An Indian Army contract for 197 light utility helicopters with French Eurocopter as one of the contenders was cancelled by the Defence Ministry in 2007 after objections were raised over the selection process. Levitte, who met Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and held talks with his counterpart M K Narayanan, said France was keen to give new impetus to defence and strategic partnership.

He noted that India and France already have considerable cooperation in the defence field, whose symbols are Mirages and submarines being built near Mumbai jointly. He said the two sides could also jointly develop Kaveri engines in India for the country's Light Combat Aircraft (LCA).

"India can buy the engine off the shelf outside India or prefer to build it in India with partnership of France," he said, adding his country was asking New Delhi to take a decision on it. He added that France was ready to share the technology required for the development of an aircraft engine and it will help India to develop "its own aircraft engine industry."

DRDO is looking to procure new engines for the LCA project and Eurojet consortium with France as one of its partners has offered its EJ-200 engine for it. Six Scorpene submarines are being built near Mumbai with Transfer of Technology (ToT). "It is an excellent symbol of what we can achieve together," Levitte said.

French consortium DCNS received the contract in 2004 for building six submarines at Mazagon Dockyards Limited in Mumbai. Talking about Mirage 2000 fighter jets, Levitte said discussions on their "upgrades would be over soon." French defence company Thales along with other French Companies have offered to upgrade the Mirage 2000 to the Mirage-2000-5 level.

He said discussions for co-development of a Short-range Surface to Air Missile (SR-SAM) systems were also "nearing conclusion." DRDO has released global RFP for co-development of SR-SAM system and is looking for foreign collaborators to develop the system.

(With inputs from agencies)


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## ejaz007

*Air Force MRCA Update: French Diplomat Bats for Dassault Rafale; Wants Fair Competition*
Dated 18/1/2009


Eyeing the mega deal for 126 multi-role combat aircraft with India, France today said it expected "fair competition" and equal treatment by New Delhi to all the bidders in the selection process.

France, whose Rafale fighter plane is a competitor for the mega deal, is keeping its fingers crossed as it recently lost a contract for 197 military helicopters, due to "severity of rules" in India.

"We are participating in a competition ... We know there is competition and we know in India, competition is to be taken by the word," French President Nicolas Sarkozy's Diplomatic Adviser Jean-David Levitte told reporters in New Delhi.

Noting that Indian rules are strict, he said, "We were victims of the severity of these rules (in helicopter deal) last year. But we accept the rules provided all competitors are treated in same way. It is fair competition that we want," he said. He claimed Rafale fighters are the best next generation planes and it would bag the deal if the competition is fair.

Developed by French major Dassault, Rafale is a twin-engined multi-role fighter aircraft and is being produced both for land-based and ship-based operations. The aircraft was last year inducted for operations over Afghanistan by France. Rafale is competing with American F/A-18 and F-16, Russian MiG-35 and Swedish Gripen for the over USD 10 billion 126 aircraft contract.

Air Force MRCA Update: French Diplomat Bats for Dassault Rafale; Wants Fair Competition | India Defence


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## LCA

nitesh said:


> moscow the deal contains an option of buying 126 and then future option of 74 more. The splitting idea seems good as at least it can increase the rate of induction. With force number declining it will be good. But will the companies agree to offer the same level of ToT if suppose the order is broken up between two entities and both get order for 100 planes? This will be tricky situation.



If that is the case,then india should go for:

126 Rafale or EF and 74 F-18 for navy.


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## nitesh

LCA said:


> If that is the case,then india should go for:
> 
> 126 Rafale or EF and 74 F-18 for navy.



First the 74 option is for IAF if they want to scale the order further.

Navy has already decided that they will have MiG 29K. Work on Naval LCA is going on. If another AC is chosen it will further complicate the situation for logistics. MiG29K are capable of operating from land bases. Rafale also is capable of carrier operations. IN and IAF should chose the same AC if IN is interested in choosing from MRCA competition.


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## LCA

nitesh said:


> First the 74 option is for IAF if they want to scale the order further.
> 
> Navy has already decided that they will have MiG 29K. Work on Naval LCA is going on. If another AC is chosen it will further complicate the situation for logistics. MiG29K are capable of operating from land bases. Rafale also is capable of carrier operations. IN and IAF should chose the same AC if IN is interested in choosing from MRCA competition.



Then Make it for IAF


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## nitesh

^^

I am not getting you. Can you please explain what u r saying


----------



## metalfalcon

NEW DELHI
Eyeing the mega deal for 126 multi-role combat aircraft with India, France on Saturday said it expected _*"fair competition"*_ and equal
treatment by New Delhi to all the bidders in the selection process.

France, _*whose Rafale fighter plane is a competitor for the mega deal*_, is keeping its fingers crossed as it recently lost a contract for 197 military helicopters, due to "severity of rules" in India.

"We are participating in a competition ... _*We know there is competition and we know in India, competition is to be taken by the word," French President Nicolas Sarkozy's Diplomatic Adviser Jean-David Levitte told reporters here.
*_
Noting *that Indian rules are strict*, he said, "_*We were victims of the severity of these rules (in helicopter deal) last year. But we accept the rules provided all competitors are treated in same way. It is fair competition that we want," he said.*_

_*He claimed Rafale fighters are the best next generation planes and it would bag the deal if the competition is fair.*_

Developed by French major Dassault, Rafale is a twin-engined multi-role fighter aircraft and is being produced both for land-based and ship-based operations.

The aircraft was last year inducted for operations over Afghanistan by France.

Rafale is competing with American F/A-18 and F-16, Russian MiG-35 and Swedish Gripen for the over USD 10 billion 126 aircraft contract. 

France wants 'fair competition' in 126 IAF deal -India-The Times of India


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## tyagi

it was in news .that gripen is out of the competition


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## ahmeddsid

not if gripen is to be believed!  I prefer the Rafale!


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## iceman2009

From this statement regarding FAIRNESS stems from Dassults fear that the MRCA is already been decided by india. 

some people are suggesting that F18 SH was part of the agreement for usa sealing india,s nuclear tech deal.

Also boeing beat airbus to supply indian air lines..

The french believe that both USA options F18 & F16 are front runners along side rafael.

it widely believed that mig35 (over dependance on russia too dangerous) & Typhoon shear cost issue and too many partners in EADS WILL SEE them dropped shortly in the bid.

This will leave just Rafael to fight off the American bids.


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## Amanpuneet Singh

i do like Rafael but they are expensive and there ASEA is still in initial stages ,it will be close call between EF n rafael unless America gives tot with ASEA.


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## Chanakyaa

I Think India will NOT go for 1 Vendor.
The Winner will me Most Likely Rafale Or Rafale+Mig35

1. EuroFigher as discussed way too expensive.
2. Gripen has American parts and is quite like LCA.
3. F16 alreday in PAK.. and F18.. ToT issues.

We are left with MiG 35 and Rafle..

Now.. Rafale is the actual winner .. i think to Keep the numbers under the Money alloted ( Mig being Cheaper ) plus Keeping Russia at his side.. 

This Could be an equation :

95-115 Rafale
20-35 Mig 35

I really love the Rafale CockPit...


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## AK-47

Check this Rafale video.

P.S: I appologize if this belongs in multimedia section.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## ju87

Don't claim to be an expert, but if India sticks to Russian jets (ie Mig 35 in this case), it'll help homogenise the fleet. The current IAF inventory is a zoo, with British, French, Russian and American aircraft all thrown in. Homogenisation would help in cutting maintenance costs and purchasing different standards of ammo for each. Plus it might help the PAK-FA project.


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## nitesh

Any way you have already said that you are not an expert. but care to explain what is the logic you are applying before writing statements like "ZOO".


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## ahmeddsid

ju87 said:


> Don't claim to be an expert, but if India sticks to Russian jets (ie Mig 35 in this case), it'll help homogenise the fleet. The current IAF inventory is a zoo, with British, French, Russian and American aircraft all thrown in. Homogenisation would help in cutting maintenance costs and purchasing different standards of ammo for each. Plus it might help the PAK-FA project.


Look man IAF is not so much of a zoo, Name the US Fighter Aircrafts we have? We have some helos, thats it I believe. I would Go for the F18s for MRCA if full TOT, otherwise Rafael is my choice!


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## ejaz007

Nitesh,
One question. Have you come across any news that suggests that IAF may consider two different types of fighters. Say one for air superiority and one for ground attack. This might simplfy things to some extent as fighters shall be delivered quickly and price might also remain within the budget.


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## ahmeddsid

I dont think this is feasible as the order will get shortened for one supplier, and they wouldnt be so forthcoming in the TOT aspect if the orders get scattered across. Its my Personal Opinion.


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## duhastmish

never depend on one country for your defense. 
as for my choice. 

eurofghter is best out of the lot but at the price its been offered i would rather go for F-35.

F-18 SUPER HORNET : It will be second choice with full tot with its varient such as growler. 

raphel is not a bad option with its good enough radar 

f-16 is about to go out of service from usaf

m-35 we have mig-29 which are almost there. dont depnad on russia much.


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## LCA

duhastmish said:


> never depend on one country for your defense.
> as for my choice.
> 
> eurofghter is best out of the lot but at the price its been offered i would rather go for F-35.
> 
> F-18 SUPER HORNET : It will be second choice with full tot with its varient such as growler.
> 
> raphel is not a bad option with its good enough radar
> 
> f-16 is about to go out of service from usaf
> 
> m-35 we have mig-29 which are almost there. dont depnad on russia much.



Buddy,F-35 still going through its testing phase.and if we go for this fighter then we atleast have to wait for 2020 because of long line of customer before india.

F-18 is good but i don't think US agree for TOT.


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## duhastmish

same goes for eurofighter with long list , we will only be able to get it by 2015-2016. where as for f/a 18 super hornet it will be best deal but only with ToT. I agree it seems difficult i wish bush was still there for one more box of MANGOES we would have got it.


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## nitesh

ejaz007 said:


> Nitesh,
> One question. Have you come across any news that suggests that IAF may consider two different types of fighters. Say one for air superiority and one for ground attack. This might simplfy things to some extent as fighters shall be delivered quickly and price might also remain within the budget.



Ezaz the main aim of going towards MRCA is to get a true multi role platform not for a specific ground attack or air superiority platform. For Air supremacy MKI is there. It's not that the MKI is not multirole. But it is a heavy fighter and cost of operation also has to be taken in consideration. Here the MRCA comes in to picture. The MRCA will replace the MiG27/Jaguar (dedicated land attack platform) the miG29/Mirage200 (Air superiority and limited ground attack) platform. The LCA will find it's way in the lower echelons which will primarily fill the role of interceptors and some ground attack.

The only logic for splitting the order might come if IAF wants to speed up the induction process. Otherwise the order should be for one competitor which should be totally capable of performing all the roles.


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## LCA

*
Air Force MRCA Update: Field Trials to be Held in April-May 2009*

The Air Force will conduct trials of six medium range multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) in contention for a massive $11 billion, 126-aircraft contract sometime in April-May. This was revealed to reporters by Air Force chief Air Chief Marshal Fali Homi Major during the weekend.

"The technical evaluation of the MMRCA is almost complete. Hopefully, field trials should commence by April-May this year," the ACM said in his address at the annual Air Chief Marshal LM Katre Memorial Lecture. This begins the next phase in which the Air Force intends to purchase sufficient numbers of cutting edge fighter aircrafts to replace the ageing fleet of Soviet era MiG-21 aircraft.

Six of the top global fighter aircraft majors which includes MiG, Dassault, Eurofighter, SAAB Gripen, Boeing and Lockheed Martin submitted their bids in April 2008. The aircraft, in contention for the mega order are the Russian MiG-35, Dassault's Rafale, the Eurofighter Typhoon, the Swedish Gripen JAS-39, Boeing's F/A-18E/F Hornet and Lockheed Martin's F-16. Under Indian industrial offset stipulations the winner will have to source, or re-invest, at least 50 per cent of the contract value through Indian industry or in India.

A request for proposal (RFP) for the 126 combat jets was floated in August 2007 and all those invited responded with their proposals by April 2008. Since then authorities have been studying the copious amount of documents submitted, which in the case of some bidders runs into as many as 10,000 pages. Even as all this impressive clerical activity is being carried out over the years, the fleet strength of the Indian Air Force has dwindled to historic lows which has become a major handicap with respect to reignition of tensions with Pakistan as the terror threat looms large on Indian cities.

ACM FH Major said the current fighter fleet was also being enhanced with an upgrade programme. "The Jaguars, MiG-27s and MiG 21-BIS have been upgraded with latest avionics and weapons systems. Similarly, the MiG-29 upgrade is underway and the Mirage 2000 upgrade will commence soon. The induction of the Sukhoi fighter (Su-30MKI) has been accelerated with the indigenous version from Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) facility at Nashik."

The air chief also hoped the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) programme would gain momentum after initial operational clearance and induction of the aircraft into squadron service by 2010-11.

In the case of the IAF's helicopter fleet, a comprehensive modernisation programme was underway, with the Chetak and Cheetah choppers being replaced with 125 light utility choppers being acquired through a global tender. "The contract for 80 Mi-17 helicopters with advanced glass cockpits has already been signed. They will be inducted in phases from 2010 to 2013," the ACM said. "We are processing a proposal to procure 22 attack choppers, which will be best in its class. We have signed a contract with HAL for 38 advanced light helicopter (ALH), including 16 armed versions with new Shakti engines and glass cockpits," ACM FH Major said.


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## macintosh

I think IAF should go for something like this:

70-80 Rafale as they have obliged to provide full ToT 

60 F-18 as to please the americans to set a tone for future deals and the F-18 are pretty good except that ToT will be an issue.

60 Mig-35 as they are good and Russians will provide spare parts even in case of any future sanctions and to cement our ties with the russians as ultimately they will help us in dire situations and them not being perturbed by our growing ties with Americans.

The rest grippen is nothing much great as compared to LCA and not futuristic at all.Eurofighter is busy with so many orders from europians that it will take a lot of time to get the AC and they haven't told so far that they will provide full tot.F-16 well India should get it only if Americans give concrete that they will be replacing f-16 with F-35 in near future and provide Tot including it's AESA radar.

However the no.'s 80 rafale, 60 f-18 and 60 mig-35 fit well both politically and technology wise.


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## duhastmish

I DOTN SEE whats so good about Rafale the only good i think is - full TOT , i bet fa 18 super hornet will make it with full TOT . 
MIG 35 are almost like new mig 29.


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## nitesh

Aren't you are just saying to make another hochpoch with so many different planes with different armamants to be maintained? Just think about that


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## nitesh

duhastmish said:


> I DOTN SEE whats so good about Rafale the only good i think is - full TOT , i bet fa 18 super hornet will make it with full TOT .
> MIG 35 are almost like new mig 29.



Rafale is a very good plane. Remember IAF wanted mirage to be purchased in large number when it did not materialize the MRCA came in. Boeing has already denied about sharing of source code for there radar. Boss miG 35 is very improved version. Not just a new miG29


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## macintosh

nitesh said:


> Aren't you are just saying to make another hochpoch with so many different planes with different armamants to be maintained? Just think about that



Fine that maintenance for F-18 will be costly than that for Mig-35 and rafale as IAF already have french and russian planes but one has to start somewhere considering that if Indo-US strategic patnership materialize fully in future and Americans feel free to provide us with TOT or make us partner in any of their future plans then it would cost it much more for maintenance at that time than it may now.American combat aircrafts are superb in both design and technology even if they don't provide full TOT.

Moreover relying over just Russians as our main suppliers is not that good as we wont have an edge over chinese who also have access to much of the russian arsenal.Also f-18 is one gem which will be further upgraded by the Americans and give us a distinctive edge in subcontinent.


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## nitesh

Then why not go with F 18 only. What is the logic behind dividing this order. A lot of ways it can be compensated like the second line of subs order can go to Russia. French have already got orders for there nuclear reactors. Same for russia too.


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## macintosh

duhastmish said:


> I DOTN SEE
> MIG 35 are almost like new mig 29.



Not at all.
Not if you know about it.Mig-35 may be fitted with thrust vectored control,has fly by wire,new aesa radar and optical locator system.
And according to those who fly mig-29 you can't get the best out of it even after 6 years on it as it is much less forgiving.


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## macintosh

nitesh said:


> Then why not go with F 18 only. What is the logic behind dividing this order. A lot of ways it can be compensated like the second line of subs order can go to Russia. French have already got orders for there nuclear reactors. Same for russia too.



French got 6 reactors may be due to scorpene TOT or maitery or their support in NSG or else something bigger is cooking up as you don't give such a large order without anything.


But just don't trust America as behind everything they do is a long drawn strategy and they will definetely not be giving full TOT.America is unreliable and I believe obama in particular for India as was evident by his UN representative by putting kashmir in the same line as libya and insisting on India signing ctbt before signing of nuclear deal with India as also by his talk about H3B visa for working in U.S.
We should only order as much of F-18 as is required for continuing the strategic patnership and 60 is a decent number.
Their is no point in giving them the full order as it will jeopardize Indo-russian deep friendship as when medveded visited India recently India for the first time applauded russian efforts in caucas region which was like music to medveded ears.You just don't speak about that region if you don't want to please russia too much.


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## duhastmish

We should only order as much of F-18 as is required for continuing the strategic ........

dude seem like a developing country is giving bheekh to us of A he he he he , doesn't it feel good ay!
but like i said before dont depend on Russia too much , we have enough deals with them , pak fa , new ship carrier etc etc etc, many many more. and India need to know more about American or European technology,


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## nitesh

macintosh said:


> French got 6 reactors may be due to scorpene TOT or maitery or their support in NSG or else something bigger is cooking up as you don't give such a large order without anything.
> 
> 
> But just don't trust America as behind everything they do is a long drawn strategy and they will definetely not be giving full TOT.America is unreliable and I believe obama in particular for India as was evident by his UN representative by putting kashmir in the same line as libya and insisting on India signing ctbt before signing of nuclear deal with India as also by his talk about H3B visa for working in U.S.
> We should only order as much of F-18 as is required for continuing the strategic patnership and 60 is a decent number.
> Their is no point in giving them the full order as it will jeopardize Indo-russian deep friendship as when medveded visited India recently India for the first time applauded russian efforts in caucas region which was like music to medveded ears.You just don't speak about that region if you don't want to please russia too much.



I am still not getting the logic behind this 60 number. The P8i deal is signed deal for CBU 105 is signed. The C 130J is signed. Almost 3.2 billion dollars signed. give them pie in helicopter contest. Or the tender going on for artillery competition. There is no need to screw up the logistic structure for a very small number.


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## macintosh

duhastmish said:


> We should only order as much of F-18 as is required for continuing the strategic ........
> 
> dude seem like a developing country is giving bheekh to us of A he he he he , doesn't it feel good ay!
> but like i said before dont depend on Russia too much , we have enough deals with them , pak fa , new ship carrier etc etc etc, many many more. and India need to know more about American or European technology,



Read post #405. There if have said that f-18 is a gem and will give India a distinctive advantage.As far as my comments "We should only order as much of F-18 as is required for continuing the strategic" are concerned ,these were in response to nitesh suggesting why not go for f-18 only are are quoted by you out of context.


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## macintosh

nitesh said:


> I am still not getting the logic behind this 60 number. The P8i deal is signed deal for CBU 105 is signed. The C 130J is signed. Almost 3.2 billion dollars signed. give them pie in helicopter contest. Or the tender going on for artillery competition. There is no need to screw up the logistic structure for a very small number.



It will give flexibility and experience to IAF and in future if INDIAN NAVY wanna go for it then it will be pretty easy.The logic behind no. 60 is this:
80 rafale as it superb and less maintenance plus full TOT,60 mig-35 as will kind of act as upgrade of mig-29 India has experience,less maintenance,full tot and Russians wont be wary of growing Indo-US patnership,60 f-18 which can me ordered more if in future INDIAN NAVY wants it ,would have acquired experience by the,not totally dependent on russians, flexibility, added advantage china doesn't have it so edge and begning of development of infrastructure for maintenance of US fighters if India wanna go for some in future.Total add to 200 the numbers IAF is looking for.


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## nitesh

IAF has already signed contract for upgrading MiG29's so you are saying let's have mig35 also? Mirage deal is getting signed so let's have rafale also. So after some time the composition will be MiG21/27/29/35 so instead of reducing the types of planes you are advocating let's increase it? Above that add mirage2k and then rafale also. oh let's have jaguar too. Oh stop let's have LCA and MKI also. OOps this is not sufficient toys let's have F 18 also. The current diversity is not enough you want more only?

The best option would be to go with only one AC so that it can be inducted in numbers and have it's presence felt in the battle.


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## ejaz007

*Air Force MRCA Update: Field Trials to be Held in April-May 2009*
Dated 19/1/2009


The Air Force will conduct trials of six medium range multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) in contention for a massive $11 billion, 126-aircraft contract sometime in April-May. This was revealed to reporters by Air Force chief Air Chief Marshal Fali Homi Major during the weekend.

"The technical evaluation of the MMRCA is almost complete. Hopefully, field trials should commence by April-May this year," the ACM said in his address at the annual Air Chief Marshal LM Katre Memorial Lecture. This begins the next phase in which the Air Force intends to purchase sufficient numbers of cutting edge fighter aircrafts to replace the ageing fleet of Soviet era MiG-21 aircraft.

Six of the top global fighter aircraft majors which includes MiG, Dassault, Eurofighter, SAAB Gripen, Boeing and Lockheed Martin submitted their bids in April 2008. The aircraft, in contention for the mega order are the Russian MiG-35, Dassault's Rafale, the Eurofighter Typhoon, the Swedish Gripen JAS-39, Boeing's F/A-18E/F Hornet and Lockheed Martin's F-16. Under Indian industrial offset stipulations the winner will have to source, or re-invest, at least 50 per cent of the contract value through Indian industry or in India. 

A request for proposal (RFP) for the 126 combat jets was floated in August 2007 and all those invited responded with their proposals by April 2008. Since then authorities have been studying the copious amount of documents submitted, which in the case of some bidders runs into as many as 10,000 pages. Even as all this impressive clerical activity is being carried out over the years, the fleet strength of the Indian Air Force has dwindled to historic lows which has become a major handicap with respect to reignition of tensions with Pakistan as the terror threat looms large on Indian cities.

ACM FH Major said the current fighter fleet was also being enhanced with an upgrade programme. "The Jaguars, MiG-27s and MiG 21-BIS have been upgraded with latest avionics and weapons systems. Similarly, the MiG-29 upgrade is underway and the Mirage 2000 upgrade will commence soon. The induction of the Sukhoi fighter (Su-30MKI) has been accelerated with the indigenous version from Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) facility at Nashik."

The air chief also hoped the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) programme would gain momentum after initial operational clearance and induction of the aircraft into squadron service by 2010-11.

In the case of the IAF's helicopter fleet, a comprehensive modernisation programme was underway, with the Chetak and Cheetah choppers being replaced with 125 light utility choppers being acquired through a global tender. "The contract for 80 Mi-17 helicopters with advanced glass cockpits has already been signed. They will be inducted in phases from 2010 to 2013," the ACM said. "We are processing a proposal to procure 22 attack choppers, which will be best in its class. We have signed a contract with HAL for 38 advanced light helicopter (ALH), including 16 armed versions with new Shakti engines and glass cockpits," ACM FH Major said.

Air Force MRCA Update: Field Trials to be Held in April-May 2009 | India Defence


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## ju87

ahmeddsid said:


> Look man IAF is not so much of a zoo, Name the US Fighter Aircrafts we have? We have some helos, thats it I believe. I would Go for the F18s for MRCA if full TOT, otherwise Rafael is my choice!



We've ordered Orion maritime patrol craft and transport planes from the US. 

Nitesh and others:

What I meant by zoo is we have too much variety. Didn't mean any offense. What you said about not depending on one country is true, but I imagine the logistics of maintaining both eastern and western bloc equipment is a nightmare.


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## nitesh

No boss it is not a ZOO at all. Every plane has some dedicated role to do. MiG27 is ground attack air craft. Jaguar is a maritime strike aircraft. MiG29 is for countering F16. In intial days it was quite a headache to maintian it. Hence Mirage (it is multi role) was purchased. MiG 21 in Bison configuration is our interceptor.

Now the days are in for true multi role fighters. Hence the MRCA.


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## ejaz007

IAF does have problem maintaining such a variety of equipment. Logistics and Maintenance are difficult especially when a squadron has to be relocated from one base to another. The recipient airbase won't have the stock of the spares needed for the incoming planes and neither would its staff major knowledge of the maintenance of the plane.

A team maintaining Mig-21 would know almost nothing regarding Mirage 2000 or SU-30.

This situation is not going to improve especially if non Russian/French system is inducted in the service. Initially IAF problems would escalate and then with the passage of time depending on the availability of spares and technical expertise might smoothen up.


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## nitesh

ejaz007 said:


> IAF does have problem maintaining such a variety of equipment. Logistics and Maintenance are difficult especially when a squadron has to be relocated from one base to another. The recipient airbase won't have the stock of the spares needed for the incoming planes and neither would its staff major knowledge of the maintenance of the plane.


Lots of bases operate multiple types of aircrafts. The problem can happen when youa re suddenly moving one type of plane to a base which does not previously operates it. But don't you plan it beforehand



> A team maintaining Mig-21 would know almost nothing regarding Mirage 2000 or SU-30.


Too general statement. People can have multiple skills.



> This situation is not going to improve especially if non Russian/French system is inducted in the service. Initially IAF problems would escalate and then with the passage of time depending on the availability of spares and technical expertise might smoothen up.


Well MRCA is chosen to reduce the diversity and in large numbers. So worth the exercise.


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## nitesh

hey LCA you were correct buddy

Gripen - The wings of your nation - gripen_supercruises


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## LCA

nitesh said:


> hey LCA you were correct buddy
> 
> Gripen - The wings of your nation - gripen_supercruises



And it is using F-414.
So there is a possibility with an engine of 95-100KN,LCA will supercruise.


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## Chanakyaa

In another Forum i read a comment of a Member which i feel was quite Logical.
According to him , if india really wants ro replace the MiGs on proper Time , it makes No sense to go with a single vendor as then The Delays will again be involved. So 126 Planes will again take Years to complete making India Vulnurable as before.. 

and Add to it the fact that if This Delay is acceptable and India can go with a Single vendor , then its Better that More emphasis is given on LCA which in many ways is the Best Contender as far as the MiG replacement and number increase is concerned and Inducting LCA will take nearly the same time.. ( may be +2 to +4 Years , but will deliver independence )

This Supports the View that Rafale+MiG 35 Combo will make out the best Deal for India.

I love the Looks of MiG 35 but i Strongly feel that Indian Pilots will Love Rafale..


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## iceman2009

Please consider the following.

Having spent upwards of $11 billion dollars the MRCA winner will need to be in frontline service UNTIL 2040.. Thats over 25 years if the first 2 squadrons arrive by 2015....


The F16 will be phased out by USA by 2020 and by most other Air powers by 2025... by JSF or Typhoon or Gripen 

The MIG35 will give us a IAF of 80% russian origin. FAR TOO DANGEROUS for blackmail annd common failures.. DON,T forget PAK FA too 


The F18 SH despite a great platform has TOT issues and always the issue of sanctions. DO we really trust the YANKS yet... & usa WILL START TO PHASE OUT by 2025

THE gripen is far too much like LCA only better. BUT it will signal the death of DRDO HAL on LCA

Typhoon. is the best and most advanced MRCA but FAR TOO much money

Rafael FOR ME ticks so many boxes

Commonality with mirage 2000 
We already buy much hardware off france
Far less sanctions issues
French offering massive TOT & help with LCA engine & AESA radar 
True late 4TH generation war plane will remain in service with french until at least 2040 SAME TIME FRAME AS INDIA WANTS.

On paper for me it looks the best option.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## macintosh

SAAB Opens Office in New Delhi; Jan Widerstrom Shares Long Term Vision




Dated 27/1/2009
Printer Friendly Subscribe
With the field trials for the proposed 126 aircraft for the Indian Air Force (IAF) set to commence in April-May, Swedish arms manufacturer SAAB which is one of the six in the race with its Gripen aircraft today opened an office in the Capital as part of its "efforts to market products for defence and civil security in the Indian market".

Senior company officials pitched for the Gripen aircraft, saying it was "one of the most advanced fighter aircraft in its category, as also one of the contenders for the IAF Medium Range Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) programme. Gripen is the world's most technologically advanced multi-role fighter aircraft with futuristic warfare technologies."

Addressing reporters here, the country head and vice-president of SAAB International, Mr Jan Widerstrom, said that for his company, India was a key market and therefore it was making long-term commitments. "We are offering our high tech portfolio to the Indian Army, Air Force and Navy. We will be further enhancing our presence to ensure full support to our customers. SAAB is actively looking for long-term cooperation with Indian government and private industries," Mr Widerstrom said.

In December 2008, SAAB had bagged a contract to deliver Integrated Defensive Aids Suite for HAL's Dhruv Advanced Light Helicopter project.


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## duhastmish

*super viper f-16 for Indian mrca*

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## A-D

duhastmish said:


> *super viper f-16 for Indian mrca*



looks hot & sexy ..............


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## duhastmish

i think it has ...Infra-red search and track missing ---- in front , i hope they do something about it or else the deal is a JOKE!


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## booo

F-16IN Super Viper | Lockheed Martin


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## chirag.s

duhastmish said:


> i think it has ...Infra-red search and track missing ---- in front , i hope they do something about it or else the deal is a JOKE!





nothing to worry about its got a lantirn 2 pod attached to is air intakes and i think the nose is too small to accomodate it and it already has other 4 protruding IFF antennas there 

LANTIRN






ANTENNAS





but the question is CAN it carry both lantirn and sniper pods at the same time ?????

any views on this guys

thank you


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## ejaz007

Its a long article therefore I have only posted the updates:

*MMRCA: Updates and Developments*


*Jan 17/09:*
Air Force chief Air Chief Marshal Fali Homi Major reveals that the IAF will conduct a fly-off of the 6 MMRCA contenders some time in April-May 2009. 

Rumors have been started that Saabs JAS-39 Gripen might be left out of these field trials as a result of the IAFs Technical Evaluation Committee report, which is said to have been submitted to the Indian ministry of defense in mid-November 2008. That report has to be approved by the ministry before the field trials can begin. Those claims regarding the Gripens relative capabilities are difficult to reconcile with the roster of competitors. Meanwhile, Gripen Internationals India director Eddy de la Motte says:

We firmly believe the report does not have any basis and the news is incorrect. Gripen meets or exceeds every operational requirement raised by the IAF in all roles  air-to-air fighter, [beyond visual range/within visual range], air-to-surface land and sea, and reconnaissance.

See: India Defence re: trials | India Defence re: Gripen.

*Dec 8/08:*
Dassault Aviation announces agreements with Tata Technologies subsidiary INCAT [DID note: not the Australian naval firm] for Engineering Services Outsourcing. Under the terms of the MoU, INCAT will provide Dassault Aviation with Engineering Services in a number of critical domains, in support of the Indian Air Force MMRCA program under its industrial offset requirements.

The services would use INCATs Global Delivery model, and delivered largely from the recently established INCAT HAL Aerostructures Limited (IHAL) dedicated aerospace engineering services centre joint venture in Bangalore, India. It would be backed up by INCATs delivery teams in France and the USA.

India&#8217;s MMRCA Fighter Competition


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## Dilli

duhastmish said:


> *super viper f-16 for Indian mrca*



Will this be single seater version or the double seater??

And what clear cut advantages it have over block 52??


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## macintosh

MiG 35 to be Showcased at Aero India 2009




Dated 3/2/2009
Printer Friendly Subscribe
Russia will use an upcoming air show in India to showcase its MiG-35 advanced jet fighter, a contender to win an Indian fighter tender, an official from Russia's state arms exporter said on Monday.

Aero India-2009, which will be held in the southern city of Bangalore on February 11-15, is one the largest aerospace shows in the Asia-Pacific region, hosting leading manufacturers, vendors and suppliers from 35 countries.

"The MiG will certainly make several demonstration flights after its presentation on the first day of the air show. We would like it to show its best features," said deputy director of Rosoboronexport Viktor Komardin.

Six major aircraft makers - Lockheed and Boeing from the United States, Russia's MiG, which is part of the UAC, France's Dassault, Sweden's Saab and the EADS consortium of British, German, Spanish and Italian companies - are in contention to win the $10 billion tender for 126 light fighters to be supplied to the Indian Air Force.

Komardin reiterated that the MiG-35 has excellent chances to win the tender because the Russian aircraft has superb performance characteristics and Russia and India share a long-standing partnership in strategic and military-technical cooperation.

"The MiG family is well-known in India. Our Indian partners have production and maintenance facilities ready to produce part for our aircraft," the official said.

The existing Russian-Indian military-technical cooperation program until 2010, lists up to 200 projects worth about $18 billion.

India is a key buyer of Russian weaponry, with contracts including the delivery of the Admiral Gorshkov aircraft carrier with at least 16 MiG-29K Fulcrum-D carrier fighters, the Smerch MLRS, and licensed production of T-90 tanks in India.

Russia signed in March a contract with the Indian Defense Ministry to upgrade around 70 MiG-29 fighters, in service since the 1980s, and agreed to develop a fifth-generation fighter together with India. (MiG-29 K/KUB fighters for India- Image Gallery)

Russia's MiG-35 Fulcrum-F, an export version of the MiG-29M OVT (Fulcrum F) is a highly maneuverable air superiority fighter, which won high acclaim during the Le Bourget air show in France last year.

The fighter is powered by RD-33 OVT thrust vectoring engines. The RD-33 OVT engines provide superior maneuverability and enhance the fighter's performance in close air engagements.

Moscow said if MiG-35 wins the tender, Russia is ready to transfer all key technology to India's Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. and provide assistance for the production of the aircraft in the country.


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## BATMAN

> Rumors have been started that Saabs JAS-39 Gripen might be left out of these field trials as a result of the *IAFs Technical Evaluation Committee report*, which is said to have been submitted to the Indian ministry of defense in mid-November 2008. That report has to be approved by the ministry before the field trials can begin. Those claims regarding the *Gripens relative capabilities are difficult to reconcile with the roster of competitors*.
> 
> 
> 
> I think india is looking for a supplier which have bigger shphere of defence technology ranging from nuclear technology, armed vehicles incl. tanks, knowhow of engine, radar, missiles etc.
> All these features are located either in France or US. Sweeds are definate looser on these grounds.
> All this talk of technical evaluation is a joke.
Click to expand...


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## aditya_friend

when is the decision likely to be announced .


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## nitesh

aditya_friend said:


> when is the decision likely to be announced .



check this

India&#8217;s MMRCA Fighter Competition


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## nitesh

domain-b.com : Lockheed signs MoUs with 30 Indian cos; says Navy interested in F-35 JSF

America's biggest defence contractor, Lockheed Martin Corp, said *it has signed about 30 initial agreements with Indian companies* aimed at meeting the country's industrial and military offset requirements for an $11 billion, 126 medium range multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) tender for the Indian Air Force (IAF).

Under the offset provisions, the Indian government requires the winning bidder in a military tender valued at more than $300 million to source production and services of at least 30 per cent of the contract value through local vendors. In the case of the MMRCA contract the offset requirements are higher &#8211; at least 50 per cent.

Lockheed has offered its scaled up Block 60 F-16IN fighter in the competition which also features Boeing's F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, the European Aeronautic Defence and Space Company's Eurofighter Typhoon, the Swedish Saab Gripen's JAS-39, the French Dassault's Rafale and the Russian MiG-35.

"We've signed these memorandums of understanding with the Indian industry in anticipation of the Indian Air Force's medium multi-role combat aircraft order," Orville Prins, Lockheed's vice-president for business development in India said.

Lockheed's agreements include developing a simulator for the C130J Hercules transport aircraft with Mumbai-based Mahindra & Mahindra Ltd, a top Indian utility vehicle maker. The IAF has already contracted for the supply of six of these classic military transporters with options for at least six more.

The $1 billion deal was of immense significance for the US government and contractors as it broke a decade's long drought of near-zero sales by American companies to this country.

Lockheed said it is also developing a flight refueling system with state-run Hindustan Aeronautic Ltd. Other foreign partners on this project are Israel Aerospace Industries Ltd. and Sargent Fletcher Inc.

"In Asia, India is the most significant opportunity," said Ralph Heath, executive vice president at Lockheed Martin and president of Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Co.

*"The Border Security Force has expressed interest in one or two C130J planes,"* Heath added.
He also said that the company was looking at partnering Indian companies in developing products for the global market. "There is technical expertise here that will add value to Lockheed Martin's products...so we are seeking a two-way partnership to benefit all," Heath said.

"In fact, the Indian Navy has expressed an interest in the F-35B which has short-takeoff and vertical-landing capability for aircraft carrier operations," Prins informed the media. "It (the F-16) is the bridge to the F-35 for India."

The fifth-generation F-35 Lightning II joint strike fighter is currently being developed with first deliveries slated for 2010. Lockheed, Pentagon's biggest contractor by sales, is also looking at civil contracts from the Indian government.


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## sancho

BATMAN said:


> *I think india is looking for a supplier which have bigger shphere of defence technology ranging from nuclear technology, armed vehicles incl. tanks, knowhow of engine, radar, missiles etc.
> All these features are located either in France or US. Sweeds are definate looser on these grounds.*
> All this talk of technical evaluation is a joke.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The problem is that we don't know what the Indian Gov really wants. If they look for the best package, I think you are right. If they look for a MRCA between the LCA and the SU 30 MKI, I also don't think that Gripen NG and the F16 IN has no real chance. But the Gov invited the Gripen NG specially, so there must be a reason why.
> We have to replace the Mig 21 and the LCA is not ready yet. The next to replace might be the Mirage, or Mig 27. Even they are, or will be upgraded, they can only stay in service for 10 to 15 years. So just to give the LCA more time to develop and produce in numbers, wouldn't it be also a possibility to get the Mirage/Mig 27 replacement now?
> In that case Gripen NG and the F16 IN would be perfect to take the A2A role of Mig 21 now and replace the Mirage as a MRCA later if the LCA is service.
> I'm not an expert in Aviation and maybe this is a stupid idea, but I think it's worth to think about it. Maybe it's the cheapest way to keep the numbers of IAF squads while developing LCA, get rid of many old Migs and getting new Western technologies.
Click to expand...


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## Dil Pakistan

I think India will eventually select the country that has wide ranging advantages (nuclear, tanks, airforce, radar etc.) Therefore, US and France are front runners (please note recent nuclear deal between France and India).

India will also give the weight to the country that (in addition to the above) can help the LCA - Teja project as well.

From diplomatic point of view and international connections, U.S. is the front runner (given the Israeli angle to U.S. as well). 

A deal with U.S. will definitely piss-off Russia.

Potentially, this can be good news for PAF. We can approach Russia or Sweden for Gipen NG. Any thoughts !!!!


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## Neo

*India to begin fighter jet trials for $12bn deal​*
NEW DELHI: India will soon begin long-awaited trials of aircraft competing for the worlds most lucrative fighter jet contract, the air force said on Wednesday.

The announcement ended months of uncertainty over Indias plans to open the race for six global aeronautical giants to grab the $12 billion, 126-jet deal. Indian Air Force chief Fali Homi Major told reporters in New Delhi that summer trials of the six contenders, in India and abroad, could begin by April or May. It is going to be a long process, he said.

US-based Lockheed Martin, offering F-16, and Boeings F-18 Superhornet had emerged as the front-runners, industry sources said. The European Aeronautic Defence and Space Company has offered its Typhoon Eurofighter, and French Dassault, which builds the Mirage, has put forward its Rafale. Russian manufacturers of the MiG-35 and MiG-29, as well as Swedens Saab, which is hawking its Gripen fighter, are also in the running for the biggest fighter jet contract in 16 years. The contract includes the outright purchase of 18 fighter jets by 2012 with another 108 to be built in India.

India also has an option to buy 64 more such jets. The airforce chief also unveiled plans for the modernisation of 50 MiG-29 jets at a cost of more than a billion dollars and said five had been already sent to their Russian manufacturers. India plans to spend up to $30 billion by 2012 to upgrade its million-strong military. afp


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## ejaz007

*India To Begin Fighter Jet Trials For $12B Deal*
By AGENCE FRANCE-PRESSE 
Published: 4 Feb 12:56 EST (17:56 GMT)

NEW DELHI - India will soon begin long-awaited trials of aircraft that are in the race to grab the world's most lucrative fighter jet deal, the air force said Feb. 4.

The announcement ended months of uncertainty over India's plans to go ahead with the $12 billion 126 fighter jet contract for which six global aeronautical giants are in the race.

Indian air force chief Fali Homi Major said summer trials of the six contending jets would begin within two to three months.

"I reckon that they may start by April or May," Major told reporters in New Delhi.

He said the tests would be conducted in India and abroad.

"It is going to be a long process," the air force chief said.

"Technical evaluation of six top-of-the-line fighter aircraft is a very complex job," he added.

Major last February extended by two months a deadline for the contenders to bid after at least two of the bidders sought more time.

U.S.-based Lockheed Martin, which is offering F-16, and Boeing's F/A-18 Super Hornet have emerged as the front-runners to clinch the Indian deal, industry sources said.

The European Aeronautic Defence and Space Company has offered its Typhoon Eurofighter and French Dassault, which constructs the Mirage, has put its Rafale in the competition.

Russian manufacturers of the MiG-35 and MiG-29, as well as Sweden's Saab, which is hawking its Gripen fighter, are also among the six bidders for the biggest fighter jet contract in 16 years.

The Indian contract includes the outright purchase of 18 fighter jets by 2012 with another 108 of the same planes to be built in India.

India also has an option to buy 64 more such jets.

India, the largest buyer of military hardware among emerging nations, plans to spend up to 30 billion dollars by 2012 to upgrade its million-strong military.

India To Begin Fighter Jet Trials For $12B Deal - Defense News


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## ejaz007

Dilli said:


> Where's the money, honey??



Don't worry about money.

JF-17, FC-20, F-16, Spada 2000, Saab 2000 Erieye, Augosta 90, F-22 Frigates, Z-9C helicopters, there is the money. Get it.


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## aditya_friend

beleive me usa wont allow you to get gripen . i dont think that you will get anything above that f-16 block latest(52-60) .


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## tyagi

Gripen promo addressing the Indian MMRCA competition.


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## duhastmish

yeh this is the most advanced aircraft and technology - looool , baki sab to tail lene gaye hain!
good commercial could have been much better.


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## satishkumarcsc

asifs0463 said:


> Bloody SAAB is really trying hard for the deal. The ads, office in Delhi, ads on bus stops they have also offer help for Tejas.
> 
> On the other hand Booing says F/A 18 will open doors for JF35 stealth fighter.



Actually It was Lockheed that is offering the F 35...that is lip service...


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## aditya_friend

satishkumarcsc said:


> Actually It was Lockheed that is offering the F 35...that is lip service...



yep not f-18 but f-16 will open the gates for f-35 .


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## duhastmish

sir,

If we compare the E.F price , isn't it almost possible to go for f-35 instead. and maintainance cost of European product wont be that far from f-35. EF will take almost same amount of time as f-35 to be included, may be India should think of that channel as well.


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## zombie:-)

arent those UAE f-16 block-60 aircrafts on the sides of LM aircrafts

finally a chance to see them in bare skin 

you can also see tho super hornets

and in the far end a DC-10 areal refuler is seen landing at AF station yelahanka bengaluru

waiting to see rafales


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## santa cruz slugg

Honestly every aircraft except for the Mig-35 is a serious contender.
The Eurofighter is the real dark horse in this competition IMO. Yeah it costs a lot of money *but* it's well worth it. Its A2A capabilities are second only to the Raptor. And considering Pakistan and china won't have anything close to it for years its a wise investment. Also it would relieve a lot of pressure off of the SU-30 MKI in the A2A role allowing the Su 30MKI to preform the A2G roles which currently the Eurofighter does not excel in. Britain and Italy I believe are trying to reduce the amount of fighters they have to buy. So India would be able to receive aircraft quicker. And as a full partner in EADS they would not only get TOT but they would be able to develop future projects aswell. 
But since politics always have a play in this i think that its down between the Super Hornet (incredible armament package, best active AESA besides Raptor) as a thank you for the Nuclear Deal or the Rafale (Full TOT, french need the contract badly). The Indian government cant be stupid enough to give it to Russia they will just double the price of the Mig-35 (ex. Mig 29K,Mi-17 etc.)
Hopefully the Eurofighter wins


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## nitesh

One more reason I can see that Typhoon not get selected is that the countries developing it are reducing the numbers so the funding for future upgrades and all has to be done by India. Same can be said about Rafale but France has plans to operate this bird for quite a lot of time. I see the countries invested in typhoon moving towards JSF.


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## aditya_friend

nitesh said:


> One more reason I can see that Typhoon not get selected is that the countries developing it are reducing the numbers so the funding for future upgrades and all has to be done by India. Same can be said about Rafale but France has plans to operate this bird for quite a lot of time. I see the countries invested in typhoon moving towards JSF.



but sir the price is ridiculouly high (comparable to f-22 .) 

i also wanted to ask that is india going to get 126 or 200 fighters.?


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## nitesh

aditya_friend said:


> but *sir* the price is ridiculouly high (comparable to f-22 .)
> 
> i also wanted to ask that is india going to get 126 or 200 fighters.?



Please don't use the BOLD word ok 

Last I check it is priced as 122 million dollars. But if they win the deal then the manufacturing has to happen in India for at least 108 fighters (18 to be delivered by the contract winner). 74 is optional. If we want we will buy it.

Manufacturing cost is low in India as compared to the original countries where it is getting manufactured.

Also it's simple if you want to win in a competition you need to meet the specifications led down byy the buyer isn't it


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## imiakhtar

nitesh said:


> Please don't use the BOLD word ok
> 
> Last I check it is priced as 122 million dollars.



Are you referring to the Eurofighter or F-22.

If you are referring to the eurofighter then you are incorrect. It is commonly spouted in almost every media outlet that the UK is paying £60million (circa $120million) per fighter. This is incorrect.

In a leaked report, it was revealed that the Austrian govt. paid the equivalent of 61 million Euros or around $85million per fighter, that was including spares, tooling and technical support.


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## santa cruz slugg

With the dwindling squadron levels I wouldn't be surprised if your government went ahead with the option for more aircraft. They need it badly. Hopefully they are smart and have the deal signed by the end of the year. 

Also no one is taking into account the 50 percent offset clause, when considering the aircraft price. Whichever aircraft wins a lot of work would be outsourced to India for it. Thus reducing the production price for the aircraft and its way cheaper to build the plane in India than it is in Europe (you don't have to pay the workers as much). 
Also, people fail to notice that the Super Hornet originally was similar in price to the Eurofighter but Boeing reduced the price drastically (100 million + to 55 million+) to meet the offset clause and to be more competitive. 
Lastly, the 120 million price reflects the current cost but if India buys the aircraft and Saudi Arabia orders more (rumor) the price would go down b/c an additional 200+ aircraft would be created.


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## nitesh

imiakhtar said:


> Are you referring to the Eurofighter or F-22.
> 
> If you are referring to the eurofighter then you are incorrect. It is commonly spouted in almost every media outlet that the UK is paying £60million (circa $120million) per fighter. This is incorrect.
> 
> In a leaked report, it was revealed that the Austrian govt. paid the equivalent of 61 million Euros or around $85million per fighter, that was including spares, tooling and technical support.



Boss have you checked the 3 letter word that I mde BOLD. 

I know that companies are not fools that they are getting in to the competition without even getting the calculation about there cost structure and profitability. Hence which ever competitor is there knows they can fit in the bill and then only came for competitiion.


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## nitesh

this is interesting, 

Computer virus 'grounds French fighter planes'- LATEST NEWS-The Economic Times

Computer virus 'grounds French fighter planes'
8 Feb 2009, 1333 hrs IST, PTI

LONDON: A virus attack on French military computers has grounded the nation's naval fighter planes after pilots failed to download their flight plans, media reports in France said.

According to the 'Liberation' newspaper, the virus infected the Navy's flight databases and Rafale aircraft were "nailed to the ground" on January 15 and 16 because they were unable to "download their flight plans".

Though Microsoft had warned several months beforehand that the "Conficker" virus, transmitted through Windows, was attacking computers, media reports claimed the French military ignored the warning and failed to take the necessary measures, British newspaper 'The Sunday Telegraph' reported.

However, the French Navy has admitted that during the time it took to eradicate the virus, it had to return to more traditional forms of communication &#8211; telephone, fax and post.

"It affected exchanges of information but no information was lost. It was a security problem we had already simulated. We cut the communication links that could have transmitted the virus and 99 per cent of the network is safe," Navy spokesman Jerome Erulin told 'Ouest France' newspaper.

In fact, the virus attacked the non-secured internal French navy network called Intramar and was detected on 21 January. The whole network was affected and military staff were instructed not to start their computers.

According to the 'Liberation', two days later the chiefs of staff decided to isolate Intramar from military's other computer systems, but certain computers at Villacoublay air base and in the 8th Transmissions Regiment were infected.

However, naval officials said that the "infection" was probably due more to negligence than a deliberate attempt to compromise French national security. "The computer virus problem had no effect on availability of our forces."


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## aditya_friend

nitesh dont you think that rafale will be the best choice .
also plz enlighten me that why would india refuse to mig-35 as it is the best aircraft ( in terms performance and price )offered .


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## nitesh

aditya_friend said:


> nitesh dont you think that rafale will be the best choice .
> also plz enlighten me that why would india refuse to mig-35 as it is the best aircraft ( in terms performance and price )offered .



aditya the answer is complex. First let's understand what this particular deal is all about. The deal is not just about getting a plane. The deal is about getting a plane which gives a right mix of weapon systems standardization of weapon systems in a long run. And above all which serves the geo strategic objectives in best way in long run. Now let's be honest here all the planes which are in competition are excellent birds no doubt about that. MiG35 has less chance because it will make our fleet more to look like Russian fleet .

Coming to rafale it's an excellent bird but only French air force operates it. So if we chose this bird the later upgrades have to be funded by us. That will add a substantial cost in terms of life cycle. 

It's not only about procurement but also about life cycle cost isn't it

Reactions: Like Like:
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## santa cruz slugg

> mig-35 as it is the best aircraft ( in terms performance and price )offered


 The Mig-35 is not the best aircraft. Price wise it still isn't (Grippen NG is cheaper and more capable) The problem is Russia would literally control all of India's main fighters except the Jaguars and the Mirages. That is too big of a risk for the government to take considering how weapons purchases have been going the last couple of years. After you knock out the Grippen (similar to LCA) Mig-35, and F-16 Block 70 the three short-listed aircraft should be the Super Hornet, Rafale, and Eurofighter. After that it becomes a who can offer more. 
EADS is offering India to be a Full Partner in EADS- huge opportunity for future development
Rafale is offering FUll TOT and source codes (which is huge), would never impose sanctions. 
Super Hornet isn't really offering a whole lot but if the offer the Growler then the Hornet should win very easily b/c the Growler would be able to Jam most of the Pakistani Aircraft.


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## nitesh

India, Russia enter into $600m JV to develop new aircraft-India-The Times of India



> On Mig-35 not being inducted in Russian Air Force and its "negative impact" on India's request for proposals which requires the aircraft to be serviceable in India, Fedorov said, "I understand... India... disappointed", but declined to elaborate.


I can sense trouble what you guys say


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## zombie:-)

nitesh said:


> India, Russia enter into $600m JV to develop new aircraft-India-The Times of India
> 
> 
> I can sense trouble what you guys say



FINALLY SOME NEWS ON MRTA 

some PS












think it will replace an-26 which the IAF currently operates about 96 nos.


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## LCA

nitesh said:


> India, Russia enter into $600m JV to develop new aircraft-India-The Times of India
> 
> 
> I can sense trouble what you guys say



Definitely, it will make negative impact.Because india want faster delivery of jets.


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## ejaz007

*Saab Pushes Independence Card in Indian Fighter Contest*
By pierre tran 
Published: 12 Feb 13:44 EST (18:44 GMT)

BANGALORE, India - The team marketing the Gripen warplane from Saab highlighted technology transfer as delivering independence in India's fiercely fought competition for 126 modern fighters under the Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) tender.

Asked how the Gripen could be billed as "the independent choice," as headlined in billboards advertising the fighter at the Aero India show - thought its engines are built by General Dynamics and potentially subject to U.S. export control - Bob Kemp, senior vice president for sales and marketing at Gripen International, said there are always restrictions of some type, whether from the U.N. or individual governments.

Saab's approach is to transfer technology, allowing customers to maintain and operate their aircraft autonomously. The use of a U.S.-built engine on India's Light Combat Aircraft does not infringe upon Indian autonomy, he said.

Saab offers customers the "freedom of choice" through agreements on transfer of technology, Kemp said.

In a round up of export campaigns for the single-engined Gripen, Kemp said Brazil has short-listed the Swedish fighter, along with Dassault Aviation's Rafale and Boeing F-18 E/F, eliminating the Eurofighter Typhoon and Lockheed Martin F-16. A decision in that contest is expected around June. 

An initial batch of 36 jets could lead to a total Brazilian buy of 120 aircraft, he said.

*The Gripen boasts network-centric capabilities - which allow data sharing between aircraft, land and sea assets - and a low operating cost, estimated at half that of a single-engined fighter like the F-16.*

In all the competitions of the last few years, "the cost of ownership is a major driver," Kemp said.

Saab Pushes Independence Card in Indian Fighter Contest - Aero India - 2009


----------



## LCA

LiveFist: Update: The MMRCA "FET" Plan

*Update: The MMRCA "FET" Plan*
Flight evaluation tests (FET) of the six medium multirole combat aircraft (MMRCA) kicks off officially in April. The six contenders from been asked to bring three aircraft to India for the month-long session. The IAF will designate three evaluation teams, each of which will try out two aircraft from each competitor. The trials kick off with handling and aerodynamic performance trials under the aegis of the ASTE in Bangalore. In early May, the fighters will be flown to Jaisalmer for hot weather desert trials. Finally, they'll move to Leh for high altitude trials involving a pair of aircraft from each competitor. Starting around September, evaluation teams from the IAF will visit the country of origin of each competing fighter for systems trials, which includes demonstration and testing of radar, EW suites, avionics, cockpit gear, countermeasures, weapons and weapon systems and communication integration.


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## indiatech

Gripen in MMRCA race 

DH News Service, Bangalore: 

Aiming positively to bag the prestigious MMRCA medium multi role combat aircraft (MMRCA) contract, Swedish aircraft major Gripen International, manufacturers of the Gripen IN exude confidence that the aircraft is in a strong position in bagging the contract to supply 126 combat aircraft to the Indian Air Force (IAF).

Speaking to Deccan Herald here at the Aero India 2009, Eddy de la Motte, Director (India) of SAAB the parent company of Gripen International said the 'Gripen NG/IN' is the most technologically advanced fighter aircraft in the world. "It is tailor-made and specifically developed for India. It is the first of a new generation of multi-role combat aircraft to enter service. It is also the only single engine aircraft equipped with super cruise systems. Unlike other aircraft in its class, the Gripen IN can be fitted with a weapon of choice, i e from any manufacturer other than that of the aircraft.

A truly net centric fighter, it is equipped with 'See First - Kill First' a combination of low radar, infra red search and track sensors, that ensure a high kill ration in any armed engagement" said Motte.


Gripen also says the aircraft is of outstanding agility for close combat and also suit's India's budget requirements. "Gripen's programme for the IAF, Indian Defence and Industrial Establishment will make India by 2020 completely independent of the need to purchase combat aircraft from other countries and make it an independent exporter of aircraft like Sweden" added Motte.


----------



## indiatech

The Hindu : Karnataka / Bangalore News : Eurofighter woos India for its Typhoon

Eurofighter woos India for its Typhoon 



Staff Reporter 







BANGALORE: Eurofighter Consortium, the leading fighter aircraft manufacturer in Europe, on Thursday made a strong bid to woo India for the sale of Eurofighter Typhoon, its latest fighter jet, saying it was prepared to partner with India for the project.

By partnership, we mean proven partnership and not lip service. It means ownership and transfer of technology (to India) from the very first minute of signing the agreement, said Aloysius Rauen, chief executive of Eurofighter GmbH told presspersons here. 

Later, answering a question, he said Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) would be its partner if its bid for procurement of 126 fighter jets for the Indian Air Force was accepted. Also, Eurofighter Typhoon companies are confident to fulfil the 50 per cent offset obligation of the Request for Proposal and will offer India access to an international sourcing network of unparalleled scope.

Mr. Rauen said that Eurofighter was the only consortium in the world having firm orders for 707 fighter jets. The jets had flown over 57,000 hours, including 50,000 hours by air forces of partner countries. While 167 Typhoons had so far been produced, the production line would be open at least till 2020, he said.

Bernhard Gerwert, CEO, Military Air System, European Aeronautical Development Societys Defence and Security wing, said Eurofighter was backed by Germany, Italy, Spain, United Kingdom and Astria. Chiefs of Air Staff of four countries, except Austria, were present on the occasion, who vouched for the superiority of the Typhoon.

Mr. Gerwert said: A competitive Eurofighter Typhoon bid proposal and a comprehensive offset offer were submitted to the Indian authorities in (August) 2008 (in response to bids for medium multi role combat aircraft (MMRCA) programme.

We have a strong interest to create a long-lasting strategic partnership with Indian aerospace and defence companies and we are committed to bring our capabilities, skills and technologies into this win-win-partnership, Mr. Gerwert said. 

India is our partner of choice, and therefore we invite it to join the Eurofighter Typhoon programme as a partner. We are ready to listen and to learn from our Indian customers and industrial partners, he noted.

Klaus-Peter Stieglitz, Chief of Staff, German Air Force, said the Typhoons with his force had flown over 10,000 without an accident. On the other hand, his United Kingdom counterpart Glen Tropy said Typhoons with the Royal Air Force had flown over 25,000 hours. However, both of them said the fighter jets were deployed neither in Iraq nor in Afghanistan for strategic reasons.


----------



## VENO

EURO FIGHTER, SUPER HORNET are very expensive. India will not be able to buy 126 of these for $10.2 billion. Amongst these two Euro Fighter is good (considering all the goodies the company is offering). If we consider the the need for MRCA project (a hunt for frontline strike aircraft) then I think GRIPEN AND F-16IN are best suited for IAF needs. Amongst these two GRIPEN will be a better choice bcos Pakistan already operates F-16 and their pilots are very well trained in its handling. They will have a strategic advantage over IAF.

Gripen is cost effective, following are the words of Eddy de la Motte - director of Gripen International in India, which makes GRIPEN an ideal aircraft for India-

1) Gripen meets or exceeds every operational requirement raised by the IAF in all roles  air-to-air fighter, [beyond visual range/within visual range], air-to-surface land and sea, and reconnaissance
2) The LCA program could benefit immensely from this array of technology, which Saab is happy to transfer
3) Wide range of state-of-the-art weapons can be sourced from manufacturers worldwide, giving the Indian Air Force freedom of choice by avoiding sole source supply constraints.
4) GRIPEN IN is a medium-weight multi-role fighter aircraft with a maximum takeoff weight 16.5 ton. The company says it is on schedule for delivery ahead of the other aircraft in contention for the MMRCA program.
5) The complete Gripen IN solution includes an AESA airborne radar and a nose-mounted IRST sensor, as well as a wide range of precision-guided munitions.

I don't know much about MIG 35. Rafale looks more promising when compared with MIG 35.


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## satishkumarcsc

VENO said:


> EURO FIGHTER, SUPER HORNET are very expensive. India will not be able to buy 126 of these for $10.2 billion. Amongst these two Euro Fighter is good (considering all the goodies the company is offering). If we consider the the need for MRCA project (a hunt for frontline strike aircraft) then I think GRIPEN AND F-16IN are best suited for IAF needs. Amongst these two GRIPEN will be a better choice bcos Pakistan already operates F-16 and their pilots are very well trained in its handling. They will have a strategic advantage over IAF.
> 
> Gripen is cost effective, following are the words of Eddy de la Motte - director of Gripen International in India, which makes GRIPEN an ideal aircraft for India-
> 
> 1) Gripen meets or exceeds every operational requirement raised by the IAF in all roles  air-to-air fighter, [beyond visual range/within visual range], air-to-surface land and sea, and reconnaissance
> 2) The LCA program could benefit immensely from this array of technology, which Saab is happy to transfer
> 3) Wide range of state-of-the-art weapons can be sourced from manufacturers worldwide, giving the Indian Air Force freedom of choice by avoiding sole source supply constraints.
> 4) GRIPEN IN is a medium-weight multi-role fighter aircraft with a maximum takeoff weight 16.5 ton. The company says it is on schedule for delivery ahead of the other aircraft in contention for the MMRCA program.
> 5) The complete Gripen IN solution includes an AESA airborne radar and a nose-mounted IRST sensor, as well as a wide range of precision-guided munitions.
> 
> I don't know much about MIG 35. Rafale looks more promising when compared with MIG 35.




If the Aircrafts are expensive the companies would have known they cant sell it. In the first place they wouldnt have been here.


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## VENO

satishkumarcsc said:


> If the Aircrafts are expensive the companies would have known they cant sell it. In the first place they wouldnt have been here.


 

Is that so? Can U please explain how will Euro Fighter deal will go through (including the future maintainence, spares, setting up the infrastructure needed to support it etc)?MIG 35 is plug n play (India already has the infrastructure for MIG). GRIPPEN in low cost and the infrastructure cost can be compensated. TEJAS is compatible, to some extent, with GRIPEN. GRIPEN technology can be used for TEJAS.

U might wanna look into why EURO FIGHTER competing for MRCA. UK is pushing EF in MRCA bcos it is not able to purchase the contracted nos of EURO FIGHTER


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## zombie:-)

VENO said:


> Is that so? Can U please explain how will Euro Fighter deal will go through (including the future maintainence, spares, setting up the infrastructure needed to support it etc)?MIG 35 is plug n play (India already has the infrastructure for MIG). GRIPPEN in low cost and the infrastructure cost can be compensated. TEJAS is compatible, to some extent, with GRIPEN. GRIPEN technology can be used for TEJAS.
> 
> U might wanna look into why EURO FIGHTER competing for MRCA. UK is pushing EF in MRCA bcos it is not able to purchase the contracted nos of EURO FIGHTER



guys whatever you say of the typhoons cost but seeing it with thrust vectoring in Indian colours will be sending shivers to the opposition
and guys IAF MIGHT NOT GO FOR THE MOST ADVANCED PLATFORM IT ILL GO FOR SOMETHING WHICH SUITS IT AND FITS THE BILL TOO


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## nitesh



Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## AK-47

*EADS Proposes Strategic Partnership with Indian Defence Industry*



On behalf of the Eurofighter consortium, EADS proposed to establish a long-term strategic partnership with Indian aerospace and defence companies. Speaking at a press conference during Aero India 2009, Bernhard Gerwert, CEO of Military Air Systems, an integrated Business Unit of EADS Defence & Security, said in Bangalore: "We have a strong interest to create a long-lasting strategic partnership with Indian aerospace and defence companies and we are committed to bring our capabilities, skills and technologies into this win-win-partnership." 

The CEO said: "India is our partner of choice and therefore we invite India to join the Eurofighter Typhoon programme as a partner. We are ready to listen and to learn from our Indian customers and industrial partners." 

A competitive Eurofighter Typhoon bid proposal and a comprehensive offset offer were submitted to the Indian authorities in 2008. Since then, 25 Memoranda of Understandings (MoUs) were already signed to enhance the industrial cooperation with India's aerospace and defence industry. The Eurofighter Typhoon partner companies are confident to fulfill the 50 percent offset obligation of the Request for Proposal (RFP) and will offer India access to an international sourcing network of unparalleled scope. 

The production of the Eurofighter Typhoon will create thousands of new jobs in India. The leading-edge combat aircraft has a tremendous built-in growth potential and therefore the Eurofighter partner companies are able to offer India new opportunities for future cooperation in design, development and manufacturing. Gerwert said: "We are ready to provide our operational, support, engineering and development capabilities to the Indian aerospace and defence sector which is growing fast and we want to grow together with this dynamic development." 

EADS which has the lead of the Eurofighter Typhoon campaign in India, is currently preparing its participation in the flight trials of the Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) competition. The flight trials are expected in 2009 after a short-listing of the bidders and intensive preparations have been launched to meet this important milestone. 

Gerwert stated: "We are very grateful that the German Air Force deployed three Eurofighter Typhoon to Bangalore. It is the very first time that Eurofighter Typhoon flies in the Indian air space and therefore they will be a major highlight at Aero India 2009." The ongoing campaign is fully supported by the four European nations Germany, United Kingdom, Spain and Italy, their four Air Forces and Europe's leading aerospace companies Alenia/Finmeccanica, BAE Systems and EADS. 

The CEO of Eurofighter GmbH, Aloysius Rauen, stated that Eurofighter Typhoon is currently the most modern combat aircraft available on the world market. Rauen said: "Eurofighter Typhoon is clearly in the pole position with an order book of more than 700 aircraft for six nations." In addition to the four core nations Germany, the United Kingdom, Spain and Italy, Austria and Saudi Arabia are the first two export customers. 

&#8220;It is expected that there will be more customers and orders in the forthcoming years because several nations already expressed their strong interest in the Eurofighter Typhoon. Amongst them are Switzerland, Greece, Turkey, Japan, Bulgaria, Romania and Croatia. The economic significance of the Eurofighter Typhoon programme is based on an order backlog of more than 19 bn EUR with annual revenues of about 3.5 bn EUR. More than 400 companies and over 100,000 jobs are currently involved in the European programme.&#8221; 

Military Air Systems is an integrated Business Unit of EADS Defence & Security (DS). DS is a systems solutions provider for armed forces and civil security worldwide. Its portfolio ranges from sensors and secure networks through missiles to aircraft and UAVs as well as global security, service and support solutions. In 2007, DS &#8211; with around 22,000 employees &#8211; achieved revenues of EUR 5.5 billion. EADS is a global leader in aerospace, defence and related services. In 2007, EADS generated revenues of EUR 39.1 billion and employs a workforce of about 116,000.

http://www.****************/news/pu...hip_with_Indian_Defence_Industry100017137.php


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## VENO

zombie:-) said:


> guys whatever you say of the typhoons cost but seeing it with thrust vectoring in Indian colours will be sending shivers to the opposition
> and guys IAF MIGHT NOT GO FOR THE MOST ADVANCED PLATFORM IT ILL GO FOR SOMETHING WHICH SUITS IT AND FITS THE BILL TOO



Touch&#233;


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## heartwinlion

can anybody tellme about the price tag of EF


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## sancho

heartwinlion said:


> can anybody tellme about the price tag of EF



The price of Saudis EF was nearly $100 Mil a unit with weapons, training and simulators I think. For us it might be cheaper because we want nearly double as much units and they offers a full partnership, but still it would be the most expensive one.
My opinon, even a partnership with EADS would be a huge benefit for us for future, EF is far to expensive. FGDA is expected in 10 years, is more advanced and could cost the same as EF, or lesser. Also don't forget that we have MKI as our main fighter now, so where is the need for an other fighter which fills the same role?


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## heartwinlion

sancho said:


> The price of Saudis EF was nearly $100 Mil a unit with weapons, training and simulators I think. For us it might be cheaper because we want nearly double as much units and they offers a full partnership, but still it would be the most expensive one.
> My opinon, even a partnership with EADS would be a huge benefit for us for future, EF is far to expensive. FGDA is expected in 10 years, is more advanced and could cost the same as EF, or lesser. Also don't forget that we have MKI as our main fighter now, so where is the need for an other fighter which fills the same role?



I think you are right coze our main front line fighter is Su-30mki which is much cheaper then EF and more advance and i think price defer ratio is 2:1.In the same price may be we got F-35 which is more advance and true multirole 5 generations fighter then EF.


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## heartwinlion

why not India include su-35 in the mmrca deal because it has the same medium-heavy class like EF and F-18 and much cheaper.


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## Contrarian

Barring the MiG 35(my opinion). I think one quote sums it up perfectly:

Credit to someone at BRF:

The whole M-MRCA competition is like a choice between Toyota Camry or Honda Accord. whatever you choose, you cant go wrong!


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## heartwinlion

malaymishra123 said:


> Barring the MiG 35(my opinion). I think one quote sums it up perfectly:
> 
> Credit to someone at BRF:
> 
> The whole M-MRCA competition is like a choice between Toyota Camry or Honda Accord. whatever you choose, you cant go wrong!



How can u say that MMRCA has spacific role in IAF from my opinion you can add su-35 and select it.


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## VENO

heartwinlion said:


> why not India include su-35 in the mmrca deal because it has the same medium-heavy class like EF and F-18 and much cheaper.



SU 30*'MKI'* version is the Indian version of SU 35 because of its similar features and components, plus it costs $65 million (according to wiki). 
Beside GRIPEN, MIG 35 will be a good option.


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## sancho

VENO said:


> SU 30*'MKI'* version is the Indian version of SU 35 because of its similar features and components, plus it costs $65 million (according to wiki).
> Beside GRIPEN, MIG 35 will be a good option.



Thats's right, both has PESA radar, an engine with TVC but the Mki is bigger and heavier. The main difference might be the new airframe of Su 35, it should provide a better RCS and no canards. 
MRCA should give IAF something what the it don't have right now like AESA, SC, or better A2G capabilities. That's why Mig 35 is the right choice and not Su 35.


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## zombie:-)

sancho said:


> Thats's right, both has PESA radar, an engine with TVC but the Mki is bigger and heavier. The main difference might be the new airframe of Su 35, it should provide a better RCS and no canards.
> MRCA should give IAF something what the it don't have right now like AESA, SC, or better A2G capabilities. That's why Mig 35 is the right choice and not Su 35.



guys MMRCA is MEDIUM MRCA su-27 family falls in the heavy cat. 

IAF wants something like the combo of f-15 and f-16 or f-22 and f-35 or su-27 and mig-29 combo and not to forget much needed new tech. and anyway we might be seein a new AESA on the rambha by 2015 and 2017


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## AK-47

I hope its not MIG-35. We dont need put all of our eggs in one basket. Russians are not honoring the contact that we signed with them.


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## zombie:-)

AK-47 said:


> I hope its not MIG-35. We dont need put all of our eggs in one basket. Russians are not honoring the contact that we signed with them.



whatever you think or fear IAF will go for something that suits it and fits the bill too if they want PLUG N PLAY there is nothing better than a mig -35 *AND GUYS REALLY RUSSIAN PLANES ARE NOT BAD AT ALL* atleast airframe and usefulness wise look at the mki its the best fighter in south Asia right now may be mig -35mki will be something similar to it and seriously *ONLY* Russians allowed us to have something better than what it has in its own air force and amreeki maal is not that type its always amreeka jindabaad and SUPER VIPER may be better than American f-16s and mind you its being phased out for f-35 ,i realize that f-16 is the road to f-35 but IF we will have f-35 s it will not be customized if the customized version will be better than American planes


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## macintosh

*Lockheed Martin Eyes Defense Deals Worth USD 15 billion with India by 2014-15
*



Dated 20/2/2009


American Defense and Aviation Giant Lockheed Martin Corp (LMT.N) is aiming for deals with India worth $15 billion in the next five years. Lockheed last year sold six C-130J military transport planes to India for about $1.1 billion, India's biggest arms deal with the United States.

The sale was seen by analysts as a sign of growing ties between Delhi and Washington and the reversal of a decades-old reliance by India on Soviet or Russian equipment. India is now looking to modernize its largely Soviet-era weapons systems and, according to Douglas A. Hartwick, chief executive officer of Lockheed's Indian operations, it could be spending $30-40 billion dollars a year on defense within five years.

"You are talking about real money after a while," Hartwick said on Thursday. He told Reuters that Lockheed was focusing on winning contracts for multi-role fighter aircraft, military transport aircraft, naval helicopters and missiles. "We will pursue defense deals worth $15 billion and growing leading up to the next five years," he said.

Six international companies, including Lockheed, have submitted bids to supply India with 126 multi-role fighter jets. Fighters made by Boeing Co. (BA.N) along with Russia's MiG-35, France's Dassault Rafale, Sweden's Saab (SAABb.ST) KAS-39 Gripen and the Eurofighter Typhoon - built by a consortium of British, German, Italian and Spanish companies - are all in contention for the more than $10-billion contract.

LEGAL OBSTACLES

A legal clause that allows U.S. inspectors to monitor arms it sells to New Delhi is proving to be an obstacle for the two U.S. companies bidding for the deal. Hartwick, a former U.S. diplomat said the U.S. Congress and the government should work together to solve the issue.

"It is important for the United States, not just the government, but the U.S. Congress to work hand in hand on these issues," Hartwick said. "The U.S. is looking for a clear-cut, top quality assurance that technologies released to whoever our partners are, will be as protected as it were in the United States," he said.

India is talking to the United States on "end-use monitoring" under which the United States reserves a right to make sure U.S. arms sold abroad are not passed to third countries. Senior Indian defense officials have told Reuters that the United States could satisfy India by not implementing a provision that allows physical verification of equipment. But India could agree to give regular briefings to the United States.

Hartwick said a breakthrough could be in sight for early next year, but Lockheed would still go ahead with its India plans and is already talking to potential partners for research and technology development. "We are talking to some of India's industrial best to come up with ideas and partnerships that have long-term potential for Lockheed and long term potential for India," Hartwick said.


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## duhastmish

I have no clue why they -Lockheed martin kept this high nose about this deal till now. And as far as i am concern for me they got the weekest deal here. I hope politics will stay away from such important deal for nation and Lockheed is kept outside. They have amazing fighter but just in this perticular case opposition is too strong for them. i guess.


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## 24*

duhastmish said:


> I have no clue why they -Lockheed martin kept this high nose about this deal till now. And as far as i am concern for me they got the weekest deal here. I hope politics will stay away from such important deal for nation and Lockheed is kept outside. They have amazing fighter but just in this perticular case opposition is too strong for them. i guess.



The problem is not just the competition but Uncle Sam's attitude  . India should not go for US products unless they have a significant advantage over the competitors, which is unlikely in MRCA deal.


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## SuperX7

Unkil sam is not good for India or Pakistan

F16 is a very old airframe and F18 is not that deadly, Mig35 looks good with those specs but some deficiencies, we should look at Rafael/EF typhoon and a combo with another fighter, i think a split order will be better considering the fast that the MMRCA order is going to be around 200 instead of 125 earlier anticipated.

maybe Mig 35 will be good to replace the older mig 29 in IAF inventory


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## heartwinlion

SuperX7 said:


> Unkil sam is not good for India or Pakistan
> 
> F16 is a very old airframe and F18 is not that deadly, Mig35 looks good with those specs but some deficiencies, we should look at Rafael/EF typhoon and a combo with another fighter, i think a split order will be better considering the fast that the MMRCA order is going to be around 200 instead of 125 earlier anticipated.
> 
> maybe Mig 35 will be good to replace the older mig 29 in IAF inventory



Mmrca is not replacement of Mig-29 if know that mig-29 already goes for upgradation coze of this it can easily extend 15yr more of his life. It can easily go to 2025-2030 and May be replace by FGFA or MCA for future not mmrca.


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## Chanakyaa

Keeping in view of the Choice of the Pilots.. Rafale is the Best Choice.


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## heartwinlion

These documents were made public from the F-35 vs Gripen NG competition.

http://www.jsfnieuws.nl/wp-content/NLGRIPENOVERVIEWAug08.pdf

Combat radius including 30 mins on station with ex. 4 RR (?) + 2 IR + ext fuel = 1300 km

It also has a interesting photograph of the plane with a very impressive load
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_CmObij6ROKk/Sa7JXasFljI/AAAAAAAAADQ/KgWZpp3LEHw/s1600-h/gripen.jpg


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## heartwinlion

AESA Radars Are A Highlight of Aero-India

AESA Radars Are A Highlight of Aero-India | AVIATION WEEK

Active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar technology is a requirement for India&#8217;s Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) competition, the biggest in the world. Consequently, a lot of maneuvering was apparent at the Aero India show last month, as fighter manufacturers worked to define their AESA answers and (in some cases) stall competitors.

Boeing&#8217;s F/A-18E/F Super Hornet has the simplest answer. Raytheon&#8217;s APG-79 radar is standard on the Block 2 airplane, the current variant, and Boeing has not indicated it&#8217;s considering alternatives. This allows Boeing to wave a low-risk banner, offering, essentially, the aircraft flying with the U.S. Navy and on order for Australia.

Lockheed Martin had a choice of three radars. Raytheon&#8217;s Advanced Combat Radar (RACR) and Northrop Grumman&#8217;s Scalable Active Beam Radar (SABR) fit in an F-16, but Lockheed ultimately chose Northrop Grumman&#8217;s APG-80, in service in the United Arab Emirates&#8217; F-16E/F. Two reasons are behind this, says Northrop Grumman: The proposed F-16IN for India is similar to the E/F and can accept the APG-80, which needs more power and cooling than RACR or SABR, and is lower risk. Northrop Grumman says no APG-80 antennas have had to be repaired, in normal use, since tests started over four years ago. &#8220;The antenna will outlast the airframe,&#8221; the company says. A few modules might fail over its lifetime, but they won&#8217;t affect performance enough to make it worth unsealing the radome and replacing them.

Eurofighter holds a unique view of the AESA issue. Executives say the Selec Captor mechanically scanned array (MSA) beats any in-service AESA for the Typhoon&#8217;s mission. A clue to their thinking emerged at an Aero India seminar. Peter Gutsmiedl, senior vice president of engineering at EADS Military Air Systems, pointed out ways in which an AESA could be integrated into Typhoon, including small side arrays, an azimuth gimbal and the so-called &#8220;swashplate&#8221; radar, a canted antenna on a rotating mount. The goal is to overcome drawbacks of a fixed AESA: narrower field of view than an MSA and diminishing effective aperture and performance at the edges of that field.

Meanwhile, a spat between France and Sweden is developing. In 2007, Saab struck a deal with Thales to provide an AESA antenna for the Gripen Demo program, to be mated with the signal processor from the JAS 39C&#8217;s Saab PS-05 MSA radar. The Thales AESA replaced the passive-scan antenna of Rafale&#8217;s RBE2.

But three things happened: Thales and Dassault were given the go-ahead to develop and produce the AESA for Rafale; Dassault has taken a large shareholding in Thales; and the Gripen NG has emerged&#8212;in India and Brazil&#8212;as a competitor to Rafale. Thales will honor the Gripen Demo contract but its AESA will not be available for a production NG.

Sweden has talked about RACR, but would prefer the PS-05/A&#8217;s &#8220;back end&#8221; modules for ease of integration and to stay away from control issues associated with U.S. components. The answer may lie with Selex, which, first as Ferranti, then as GEC-Marconi and subsequently as BAE Systems, was Sweden&#8217;s partner on the original PS-05/A.

Selex, in accordance with the philosophy of John Roulston, leader of the Captor design team, has been working on simpler, lower-cost &#173;AESAs&#8212;in fact, its first production contract was not for a fighter radar but a retrofit to U.S. Coast Guard HC-130s. Its Vixen series of forward-looking radars, banned by the U.S. from South Korea&#8217;s F/A-50, also received a launch order from U.S. Customs and Border Protection, with the 500-module Vixen 500 to be integrated on Cessna Citations.

It&#8217;s not surprising, therefore, that Saab is in talks with Selex about using its AESA technology in the Gripen NG radar. The NG is not competing with the Typhoon except in India. It is also unlikely (as different as they are) that both aircraft would make an MMRCA short list.


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## notorious_eagle

Looks like the French are desperate to sell their Rafeale's to India, i dont think they will be happy once the contract is awarded to LM for F18 Super Hornets.


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## Bull

By asking GE to stop supplying engines for the shivalik, Americans have reminded Indians what they are made off.

Russians have been traditional partners, but for this especially if we need on time we need to look at the french and their rafaels. Russians would be happy with the MIg29K, Gorkshov, Nuke subs, and new vessels for IN.


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## Chanakyaa

Bull said:


> By asking GE to stop supplying engines for the shivalik, Americans have reminded Indians what they are made off.
> 
> Russians have been traditional partners, but for this especially if we need on time we need to look at the french and their rafaels. Russians would be happy with the MIg29K, Gorkshov, Nuke subs, and new vessels for IN.



Correct.
Add to it the PAK FA , India investing 50% the Amount makes no sense to go for mig 35 .


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## heartwinlion

notorious_eagle said:


> Looks like the French are desperate to sell their Rafeale's to India, i dont think they will be happy once the contract is awarded to LM for F18 Super Hornets.



I don&#8217;t think that India go for LM coze you can see what is happened with IN now the battle between Gripen or Rafeale EF is too expensive Russia has less chance US is out of cooptation.


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## zombie:-)

notorious_eagle said:


> Looks like the French are desperate to sell their Rafeale's to India, i dont think they will be happy once the contract is awarded to LM for F18 Super Hornets.



i think you mean boeing 

LM=F-16
BOEING=F-18


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## ejaz007

*March 10/09:* Aviation Weeks AESA Radars Are A Highlight of Aero-India offers a look at various contenders radar choices.

America has an AESA technology lead, so its offerings are the most stable and mature. The F-16IN had the most choices. Ratheons RACR and Northrop Grummans SABR are both designed as drop-in AESA radars for the F-16, but Lockheed Martin chose Northrop Grummans AN/APG-80, which is already installed in the UAEs F-16E/F Block 60s and has a 100% in-service record over 4 years. The other American contender, Boeings F/A-18 E/F Block 2, will use its standard AN/APG-79 AESA radar.

Dassaults Rafale will use Thales new RBE2, but its acquisition of a large shareholding in Thales means Saabs JAS-39NG will not use an RBE2 front end as planned. Saab has a number of alternative AESA options, from Raytheons RACR to an enlarged version of Selex Galileos Vixen, but the uncertainty raises its risk profile in a number of ways.

Eurofighter reportedly had the most interesting but least mature proposals, involving AESA arrays built into other areas of the plane. Eurofighter GmbH is working on the CAESAR AESA radar, but hat is in early development. Accordingly, it touts its existing mechanically-scanned Selex Galileo ECR-90 Captor over in-service AESA radars. EADS Military Air Systems SVP of engineering Peter Gutsmiedl was reportedly talking about the option of adding small AESA side arrays, an azimuth gimbal, or even a canted AESA swashplate fitted to a rotating mount, inside a canted antenna. These embedded radar options would allow the benefits of AESA, but with a much wider scan radius that could radically change the engagement cone for radar-guided air-air missiles. If they are built, that is, and successfully tested.

India&#8217;s MMRCA Fighter Competition

*This is the latest up date regarding MRCA deal.*


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## Max The Boss

Indian Air force should get MIG 35 jets.
Because Indian Air force pilots and aircraft engineers has good experience
In Russian jets and Russian aircraft technology. If Indian Air force positive to get
MIG 35 jets then Indian Air force can add MIG 35 jets to the service 
Soon as possible when MIG 35 jets delivered. Indian Air force pilots do not need
Special training programs for MIG 35 jets because Indian Air force pilots knows
Russian jets very well and Indian Air force aircraft engineers do not need
A special technical training program for MIG 35 jets because Indian Air force aircraft engineers knows Russian aircraft technology very well. MIG 35 is the best choice for Indian Air force. Indian Air force has very good experience about Russian jets and Russian aircraft technology. I hope Indian Air force will get MIG 35 jets.


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## Max The Boss

Australian Air Force F/A-18 Super Hornet Deal

On 3 May 2007, the Australian Government signed a contract to acquire 24 F/A-18 Super Hornets for the Royal Australian Air Force, at a cost of US$4.6 billion, as an interim replacement for the aging F-111s.

The order has proved to be controversial, with the critics including some retired senior Royal Australian Air Force officers. Air Vice Marshal (ret.) Peter Criss, a former Air Commander Australia, said he was "absolutely astounded" that the Australian government would spend US$4.6 billion on an interim aircraft.[50] Criss has also cited evidence given before the US Senate Armed Services Committee that the F/A-18 Super Hornet is inferior to the MiG-29 and Su-30, which are already operated, or have been ordered, by air forces in South East Asia. Air Commodore (ret.) Ted Bushell stated that the F/A-18 Super Hornet could not perform the role that the Australian government had given it, and the F-111 airframe design would remain suitable for the strategic deterrent/strike role until at least 2020. 

The initial package offered to the Royal Australian Air Force will include:

	48 installed engines and six spares 
	APG-79 AESA radar in each plane 
	Link 16 connectivity with the AN/USQ-140 Multifunctional Informational Distribution System (MIDS) 
	LAU-127 guided missile launchers 
	AN/PVS-9 night vision goggles 
	12 Joint Mission Planning Systems (JMPS) 
	AN/ALE-55 fiber optic towed decoys 
On 31 December 2007, the new Australian Labor government announced that it would review the purchase as part of a wider review of the Royal Australian Air Force fighter procurement plans, with the possibility of the order for F/A-18 Super Hornets being either reduced or canceled. The main reasons given were concerns over operational suitability, the lack of a proper review process, and internal beliefs that an interim fighter was not required.

On 17 March 2008, the Government announced that it would proceed with plans to acquire F/A-18 Super Hornets. Defense Minister Joel Fitzgibbon said that, based on advice from the review team, Defense Minister Joel Fitzgibbon said no other suitable aircraft could be produced to meet the 2010 deadline for the retirement of the F-111 set by the former government and it was no longer possible to keep the F-111s in service past this date.

The Government has also sought US export approval for EA-18G Growlers. On 27 February 2009 Defense Minister Joel Fitzgibbon announced that 12 F/A-18 Super Hornets would be wired on the production line for future modification as EA-18G Growlers the additional wiring would cost $35 million. The final decision on conversion to EA-18G Growlers, at a cost of $300 million, would be made in 2012.
Still Indian Air forces want to purchase F/A-18 Super Hornets?


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## sancho

Max The Boss said:


> Still Indian Air forces want to purchase F/A-18 Super Hornets?



Why not? They use them as their only fighter for air superiority and strike attacks. We have Mig 29 and Su 30 for air superiority and would use F18 SH mainly for ground strike, or BVR combats. With the great weapons and a ready and proven AESA radar it would be more then capable for these jobs.
So only it's maybe not the best fighter for them doesn't mean it wouldn't be good for us. What IAF has to think about is, are they worth all the restrictions from US and do we really need a ground attack fighter?

The big question related to MMRCA is, which role will Su 30 take in the next 10 years? If we keep it for air superiority roles, fighters like EF 2000 and Mig 35 won't win MMRCA, cause they are less capable for ground attacks. If Su 30 takes the ground attack role, we don't need F18 and Rafale.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## sob

One of the criterions for deciding the deal would be political, and the results of the elections will have a bearing on the final decision.

If the so called third/fourth front backed by the commies comes in, then we can expect them to sign the deals with the Russians both F 16 and the FA 18 will be thrown out of the window.


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## maverick2009

I think The Indian Military Top Brass have already decided that it will not be the mig35.

The Massive issue of Gorskhov Price hikes and 70% domination of Russian military hardware has made india THINK carefully.

The indian military now wants WESTERN technology.

BUT only those that offer TOT (transfer of tech) 

Its been Suggested that both F16IN F18SH & RAFAEL are the front runners.

If the commies win then Rafael will get the contract.

If congress wins i expect to see F18 in indian colours. 

Russian military is losing its clout rapidley. These days the ISRAELIS win all indian military deals


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## duhastmish

maverick2009 said:


> I think The Indian Military Top Brass have already decided that it will not be the mig35.
> 
> The Massive issue of Gorskhov Price hikes and 70&#37; domination of Russian military hardware has made india THINK carefully.
> 
> The indian military now wants WESTERN technology.
> 
> BUT only those that offer TOT (transfer of tech)
> 
> Its been Suggested that both F16IN F18SH & RAFAEL are the front runners.
> 
> * If the commies win then Rafael will get the contract.
> *
> If congress wins i expect to see F18 in indian colours.
> 
> Russian military is losing its clout rapidley. These days the ISRAELIS win all indian military deals



If commies win - and have a big say in UPA- russia will get the contract for sure, i heard their thoughts about indian relation they trust -russian and chinese. to an unimaginable extend.


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## RAZOR

duhastmish said:


> If commies win - and have a big say in UPA- russia will get the contract for sure, i heard their thoughts about indian relation they trust -russian and chinese. to an unimaginable extend.



hey mate i dont think thats gonna happen ....after all the terror threats these politicos will surely reconsider before playing with defence deals ..at least for some time now ....anyway it all depends on what the iaf wants to do with whatever they get ...even if they get ru stuff we will have complete freedom in playing with it ...it wont be a showpiece .....of all the air forces MALAYSIAN AIRFORCE operates a really wide variety of fighter aircrafts ...MIG-29,F-18 ,SU-30MKM....they are the ones to be consulted if going for that kind of stuff...anyways all the best IAF


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## sancho

maverick2009 said:


> The indian military now wants WESTERN technology.
> 
> BUT only those that offer TOT (transfer of tech)
> 
> Its been Suggested that both F16IN F18SH & RAFAEL are the front runners.


If ToT is the key, the US fighters has less chances cause US don't share much of their techs, not even with their closest allys. They are coming with a lot of restrictions and don't offer the best they have (F35 only for future if we take F16 now), that makes it more difficult to convince IAF to go for totally new logistics and maintenance. Also EF 2000 is offered with a full partnership doesn't that mean full access to all techs?


maverick2009 said:


> Russian military is losing its clout rapidley. These days the ISRAELIS win all indian military deals


Israel never can replace Russia in all kind of deals, cause they offer no fighters, no subs, no carriers, or other major ships and so on.
Not to buy Mig 35 doesn't mean anything to the Indo - Russian relation ships, cause we still have many other big projects going on. Over 200 Su 30, Mig 29K, FGFA, 80 new ordered Mi 17, MTA, IL 50 AWACS, Russian made ships & subs..., so there are many fields where Russia will stll be our main partner.


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## godsavetheworld

A MKI already gives a tough competition to a F/A 18, I doubt IAF would choose Superhornet


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## lilaspr

New to this Forum. 

Indian bags Boeing P8-I spy planes- great news

For MRCA: I would say India should go for Eurofighter Typhoon.

here at the forum people talk less about Typhoon. Dont know why?


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## Patriot

lilaspr said:


> New to this Forum.
> 
> Indian bags Boeing P8-I spy planes- great news
> 
> For MRCA: I would say India should go for Eurofighter Typhoon.
> 
> here at the forum people talk less about Typhoon. Dont know why?


Way too expensive.It will not be selected.The only real participants are Hornet, Viper, Mig35 and Rafale.


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## Kharian_Beast

Also Pakistan has access to Saudi Typhoons.


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## Kharian_Beast

Born In The USA said:


> Do you have a credible source??
> It just sound a bit vague.
> Pl. help me make sense of it.



I can't make my point any more obvious than it is.


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## maverick2009

Saudi Typhoons Are to defend Saudi AIR SPACE. not to be borrowed by PAF 

Non one is handing over $100 million dollar planes to a another country.

Even china wants hard cash via loans for their JF17 & J10 fighters.


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## asq

maverick2009 said:


> Saudi Typhoons Are to defend Saudi AIR SPACE. not to be borrowed by PAF
> 
> Non one is handing over $100 million dollar planes to a another country.
> 
> Even china wants hard cash via loans for their JF17 & J10 fighters.



Who drives these typhoon, u guessed it right, Pakistanis.


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## satishkumarcsc

asq said:


> Who drives these typhoon, u guessed it right, Pakistanis.



So if you fly these aircrafts then they are Pakistani aircrafts?...what is your logic behind this?


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## Patriot

satishkumarcsc said:


> So if you fly these aircrafts then they are Pakistani aircrafts?...what is your logic behind this?


Of course they are not Pakistanis.The pilots are on deputation which means they train Saudi Pilots only and not to hijack the air craft to Pakistan.


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## duhastmish

Front runner in MRCA has to be Rafael , its fitting all the requirement Indian air force have.
Second option has to be -f/a 18 - super hornet if we can get growler with it.

-----GRIPEN AND tHYPOON STAND A good chance too . 
------but f-16 and mig-35 are goner-- if the politics wont invade the requirment of nation.


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## NyczAce

duhastmish said:


> Front runner in MRCA has to be Rafael , its fitting all the requirement Indian air force have.
> Second option has to be -f/a 18 - super hornet if we can get growler with it.
> 
> -----GRIPEN AND tHYPOON STAND A good chance too .
> ------but f-16 and mig-35 are goner-- if the politics wont invade the requirment of nation.



I second this.But this is India, anything can happen.


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## sancho

saadahmed said:


> Of course they are not Pakistanis.The pilots are on deputation which means they train Saudi Pilots only and not to hijack the air craft to Pakistan.


Exactly, so the only access that PAF has is to train with, or against those aircrafts but they can never be used against IAF. 
To me that is no reason for us not to buy EF, otherwise we have to shortlist Rafale and F16 IN too, cause UAE already have, or are buying them and your pilots can train against them too.


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## RAZOR

so what if you guys have access to them i bet all my property not all of the secrets will be let out by them even if you are close to them ...this is something that is happening


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## maverick2009

Typhoon Training is been conducted by the RAF. 

British Air crew have for years help maintain Saudis Tornados.

PAF pilots have no formal training to fly and indeed teach the saudis how to use or maintain Euro fighters.


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## heartwinlion

Flight trials in May of combat jets in running for IAF order www.idrw.org / Indian Defense Research Wing

BY: IANS 

light trials are likely to begin in May of planes in the running for a $10 billion Indian Air Force (IAF) order for 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA), a top commander said Wednesday.
&#8220;Hopefully, the flight trials shall commence by the end of May,&#8221; IAF chief Air Chief Marshal Fali Homi Major told reporters on the sidelines of a book release here.

&#8220;The technical evaluation is over as far as we are concerned,&#8221; he added.

At least two sets of flight trials are likely to be conducted in summer and winter as the competing jets are put through their paces in the icy Himalayan heights, the deserts of Rajasthan and the humid conditions of south India.

Once the field is narrowed down to two or three, the price bids will be opened and negotiations will begin to extract the best deal from the manufacturers, an official said.

The entire process is likely to take a year-and-a-half, if not longer, before the IAF zeros in on its choice of aircraft.

Six aircraft are in the fray: the US Boeing F/A-18 Super Hornet, the Lockheed Martin F-16 Super Viper, the French Rafale, the Swedish Gripen, the Russian MiG-35 and the Eurofighter Typhoon that is built by a four-nation European consortium.

The IAF had August 28, 2007 floated a global tender for the jets.

Eighteen aircraft will be purchased in flyaway condition and the remaining 108 manufactured in the country under a transfer of technology (TOT) agreement with the chosen supplier.

The aircraft are envisaged to have a lifecycle of 40 years from the time of delivery.

India&#8217;s Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) had cleared the RFP at a meeting here June 29, 2007 chaired by Defence Minister A.K. Antony.

The IAF tender also contains an offsets clause under which 50 percent of the money paid to the chosen vendor will have to be reinvested in India&#8217;s defence manufacturing sector.

The offsets clause that was introduced in the Defence Procurement Procedure-2006 (DPP-2006) mandates that 30 percent of the cost of military purchases exceeding Rs.3 billion has to be reinvested in the country. The offsets obligation has been raised in the case of the IAF order given its higher value than most other defence deals.


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## Myth_buster_1

Typhoons are way too expensive for india. 
Rafale and Gripen has no political importance as this tender is about.
Since India has tilted one of its two wings toward America i can assure you that FA-18 will be chosen. Mig-35 F-16 Gripen Rafale EF are out of the race though its another matter that IAF fan boys still want to play their arms chair general guessing game.


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## Myth_buster_1

maverick2009 said:


> Typhoon Training is been conducted by the RAF.
> 
> British Air crew have for years help maintain Saudis Tornados.
> 
> PAF pilots have no formal training to fly and indeed teach the saudis how to use or maintain Euro fighters.



unfortunately you know very very little of this subject.


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## heartwinlion

Growler said:


> Typhoons are way too expensive for india.
> Rafale and Gripen has no political importance as this tender is about.
> Since India has tilted one of its two wings toward America i can assure you that FA-18 will be chosen. Mig-35 F-16 Gripen Rafale EF are out of the race though its another matter that IAF fan boys still want to play their arms chair general guessing game.



Going for USA is too risky I think Rafale and good change F-16 is too old and Gripen is too close to lca EF is expansive. I think for my point of view Ist contender is Rafale then F-18 coze of proven history and along with AESA radar


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## duhastmish

we are just goign in circles in this thread lol - I think best will be sit back and see what happnes in next -25 years - when india will get its - Fighters. 
Lol as indian i say we just dont deserve a damn thing - we got money from my and your pocket and some idiots are just wasting it - by not using it - They might have let it be in my pocket so i could have atleast made some money out of it.
( i hope people get what i am trying to say ) 
We all know this - MRCA - been goign for years and i see it not becomign reality for atleast 2-3 yrs just to decide what we want and then - 15 yrs to get the whole lot of fighter in out arsenal. 
-- LOL what a joke india - defense has become - I like it what a pakistani defense side said- Pakistan is protected not becuase of its - great defence but becuase of DUMB enemy that they got. 
It just gets annoying most time, FAn boys ( including me ) keep dreaming of some grest addition because WE FRIGGIN ARE BUYIGN TI ( PEOPLE OF THIS COUNTRY ) but some idiots are not doing their jobs. 
We need a change.
*I think we south asians don't deserve democracy we need somebody to kick our behind and make us work.*


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## heartwinlion

Mki come in $40m why not India scarp mrca deal any buy mki it is better then from all mrca fighter and much cheaper + logistic and maintenance cost come too low coze we have already this type of fighter


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## sancho

Growler said:


> Typhoons are way too expensive for india.
> Rafale and Gripen has no political importance as this tender is about.
> Since India has tilted one of its two wings toward America i can assure you that FA-18 will be chosen. Mig-35 F-16 Gripen Rafale EF are out of the race though its another matter that IAF fan boys still want to play their arms chair general guessing game.


First, I don't think that Typhoon is generally too expensive for us (latest news reports says a unit cost around $ 85 mil), but of course it might be the most expensive one in the competition. Maybe we should keep in mind how the EF is offered to us!
They offered a full partnership, that normally means share of techs and development costs on the one side, but also *lower unit costs* than customers like Saudi Arabia for example has to pay! 
My guess is that they want us to take some share in funding EF tranche 3, because the member countries are facing funding problems at the moment and can't efford all the aircrafts they originally ordered. The fact that they split the tranche 3 into A and B now hints also in this direction, cause that leaves funding tranche 3B (or a part of it) for us.


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## Born In The USA

*French Rafael knocked off $ 10 billion race for IAF fighter*

indianexpress.com/news/french-rafael-knocked-off-10-billion-race-for-iaf-fighter/447745/


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## Kharian_Beast

*UPDATE 1-France's Dassault out of India fighter deal*

By Bappa Majumdar

NEW DELHI, April 16 (Reuters) - France's Dassault Aviation is out of the running for a $10 billion contract to supply India with 126 multi-role fighter jets, an Indian defence ministry spokesman said on Thursday.

Boeing (BA.N), Lockheed Martin Corp (LMT.N), Russia's MiG-35, Sweden's Saab (SAABb.ST) KAS-39 Gripen and the Eurofighter Typhoon, a consortium of British, German, Italian and Spanish companies, were the other parties that submitted bids last year for the contract, one of the biggest in the world.

"Rafale did not meet the usual requirement," the spokesman told Reuters.

"The other five companies are still in the race," he said.

In Paris, a Dassault Aviation (DAST.PA) spokesman had no immediate comment on the announcement.

Dassault's other leading partners in the Rafale project include Thales (TCFP.PA), which makes the radar, and engine maker Safran (SAF.PA).

India has said it will soon begin trials of the fighter jets, as it plans to replace its ageing Soviet-era fleet. Defence officials have said the trial process could begin by end-May and could take nearly a year to test the capability of the fighters.

"It will be a long process, as we will check various things, including the capabilities of the fighters in combat scenarios," the spokesman said.

India plans to spend more than $30 billion over the next five years to modernise its largely Soviet-era weapons systems and is also launching its first military spy satellite next year. (Additional reporting by Tim Hepher in Paris; Editing by John Mair)

UPDATE 1-France's Dassault out of India fighter deal | Industries | Industrials, Materials & Utilities | Reuters

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Kharian_Beast

sancho said:


> First, I don't think that Typhoon is generally too expensive for us (latest news reports says a unit cost around $ 85 mil), but of course it might be the most expensive one in the competition. Maybe we should keep in mind how the EF is offered to us!
> They offered a full partnership, that normally means share of techs and development costs on the one side, but also *lower unit costs* than customers like Saudi Arabia for example has to pay!
> My guess is that they want us to take some share in funding EF tranche 3, because the member countries are facing funding problems at the moment and can't efford all the aircrafts they originally ordered. The fact that they split the tranche 3 into A and B now hints also in this direction, cause that leaves funding tranche 3B (or a part of it) for us.



This might mean lower unit cost, but the capital spent on R&D funding, and logistical development from scratch, coupled with licensing and other tidbits would really fill the basket. 85 Million$ is also the lowest figure I've heard anyone quote. IAF would also have to wait a considerable amount of time for the delivery of the newer tranches. All in all, EF Typhoon is the costliest, most complicated and also most time consuming option.


----------



## messenger

Kharian_Beast said:


> *UPDATE 1-France's Dassault out of India fighter deal*
> 
> By Bappa Majumdar
> 
> NEW DELHI, April 16 (Reuters) - France's Dassault Aviation is out of the running for a $10 billion contract to supply India with 126 multi-role fighter jets, an Indian defence ministry spokesman said on Thursday.
> 
> Boeing (BA.N), Lockheed Martin Corp (LMT.N), Russia's MiG-35, Sweden's Saab (SAABb.ST) KAS-39 Gripen and the Eurofighter Typhoon, a consortium of British, German, Italian and Spanish companies, were the other parties that submitted bids last year for the contract, one of the biggest in the world.
> 
> "Rafale did not meet the usual requirement," the spokesman told Reuters.
> 
> "The other five companies are still in the race," he said.
> 
> In Paris, a Dassault Aviation (DAST.PA) spokesman had no immediate comment on the announcement.
> 
> Dassault's other leading partners in the Rafale project include Thales (TCFP.PA), which makes the radar, and engine maker Safran (SAF.PA).
> 
> India has said it will soon begin trials of the fighter jets, as it plans to replace its ageing Soviet-era fleet. Defence officials have said the trial process could begin by end-May and could take nearly a year to test the capability of the fighters.
> 
> "It will be a long process, as we will check various things, including the capabilities of the fighters in combat scenarios," the spokesman said.
> 
> India plans to spend more than $30 billion over the next five years to modernise its largely Soviet-era weapons systems and is also launching its first military spy satellite next year. (Additional reporting by Tim Hepher in Paris; Editing by John Mair)
> 
> UPDATE 1-France's Dassault out of India fighter deal | Industries | Industrials, Materials & Utilities | Reuters



why are you getting overjoyed . you are not getting them .!

this definitely increases the chances of typhoon and f-18 .


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## Sam Dhanraj

There were murmurs already of "Rafale" being out of the race... Going by the "no show" of Rafale during Aero India. The other contender not present was "Gripen".


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## Kharian_Beast

messenger said:


> why are you getting overjoyed . you are not getting them .!



Didn't want our lads to have to bring down such a sexy beast.



> this definitely increases the chances of typhoon and f-18 .



Thank you captain obvious.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Screaming Skull

Born In The USA said:


> *French Rafael knocked off $ 10 billion race for IAF fighter*
> 
> indianexpress.com/news/french-rafael-knocked-off-10-billion-race-for-iaf-fighter/447745/



This had to happen....it was pretty obvious to those who interacted with the French officials during Aero-India 2009....They dug their own grave by not bringing it to the Air show...to top it all the officials were citing the cost of bringing it to the show as the major reason.

But I guess they knew something that the general public didn't. I am sure that the reason for rejection was technical and not political. If it was political then they would have at least managed to proceed to the next stage.

Anyway everyone knows that the competition is very tough and the IAF maintains the highest standards when it comes to specific operational requirements and quality. The LCA is also facing similar levels of evaluation standards.


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## Lockheed F-16

Kharian_Beast said:


> *UPDATE 1-France's Dassault out of India fighter deal*
> 
> By Bappa Majumdar
> 
> NEW DELHI, April 16 (Reuters) - France's Dassault Aviation is out of the running for a $10 billion contract to supply India with 126 multi-role fighter jets, an Indian defence ministry spokesman said on Thursday.
> 
> Boeing (BA.N), Lockheed Martin Corp (LMT.N), Russia's MiG-35, Sweden's Saab (SAABb.ST) KAS-39 Gripen and the Eurofighter Typhoon, a consortium of British, German, Italian and Spanish companies, were the other parties that submitted bids last year for the contract, one of the biggest in the world.
> 
> "*Rafale did not meet the usual requirement*," the spokesman told Reuters.
> 
> "The other five companies are still in the race," he said.
> 
> In Paris, a Dassault Aviation (DAST.PA) spokesman had no immediate comment on the announcement.
> 
> Dassault's other leading partners in the Rafale project include Thales (TCFP.PA), which makes the radar, and engine maker Safran (SAF.PA).
> 
> India has said it will soon begin trials of the fighter jets, as it plans to replace its ageing Soviet-era fleet. Defence officials have said the trial process could begin by end-May and could take nearly a year to test the capability of the fighters.
> 
> "It will be a long process, as we will check various things, including the capabilities of the fighters in combat scenarios," the spokesman said.
> 
> India plans to spend more than $30 billion over the next five years to modernise its largely Soviet-era weapons systems and is also launching its first military spy satellite next year. (Additional reporting by Tim Hepher in Paris; Editing by John Mair)
> 
> UPDATE 1-France's Dassault out of India fighter deal | Industries | Industrials, Materials & Utilities | Reuters




It doesn't meet the requirements? Does the IAF want an UFO?


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## Kharian_Beast

Lockheed F-16 said:


> It doesn't meet the requirements? Does the IAF want an UFO?



 

I also guess the LCA is superior as it has had about 300 chances to impress the IAF whereas the Rafale didn't even enter technical trials  someone's priorities are out of sync.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Kharian_Beast

messenger said:


> dont live in self importance . i was not talking about you but about people of your country who laugh when something bad happens in india .



So you admit that the Rafale being executed so early in the tender process is a bad thing ? I thought you were happy at first?


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## dee

French Rafael knocked off $ 10 billion race for IAF fighter

New Delhi:

In a shocker, the French Rafael fighter has been knocked off a $ 10 billion contract to provide 126 combat aircraft for the Indian Air Force. The French fighter, which was one of the six contenders for the race, was officially rejected by the Defence Ministry for failing to meet qualitative requirements for the contract.

The news comes as a bit of a shock as the Indian Air Force has been maintaining that all six contenders  the American F 18 and F 16, the Eurofighter Typhoon, Russian MiG 35, Swedish Gripen NG and the French fighter  had met the technical requirements.

However, a senior defence ministry official made is clear on Thursday that Rafael has been rejected at the technical evaluation stage for failing to meet minimum performance requirements that had been detailed in the tender document. The flight trials for the remaining five fighters are now expected to commence within three months, a senior MoD official said. 
They did not meet the requirements and will not proceed to the next stage. We hope to begin trials within three months with the others that have qualified, a top Defence Ministry official said.

While the French fighter was always considered an underdog in the competition, which has been described as the largest international defence contract in the world, it was been aggressively pushed by the French government. Former President Jacques Chirac and his successor Nichols Sarkozy have been talking about the fighter in all their interactions with India. 







There goes the neutrals choice. I would think the path is clear for one of the U.S Jets now


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## Jako

dee said:


> French Rafael knocked off $ 10 billion race for IAF fighter
> 
> New Delhi:
> 
> In a shocker, the French Rafael fighter has been knocked off a $ 10 billion contract to provide 126 combat aircraft for the Indian Air Force. The French fighter, which was one of the six contenders for the race, was officially rejected by the Defence Ministry for failing to meet qualitative requirements for the contract.
> 
> The news comes as a bit of a shock as the Indian Air Force has been maintaining that all six contenders &#8211; the American F 18 and F 16, the Eurofighter Typhoon, Russian MiG 35, Swedish Gripen NG and the French fighter &#8211; had met the technical requirements.
> 
> However, a senior defence ministry official made is clear on Thursday that Rafael has been rejected at the technical evaluation stage for failing to meet minimum performance requirements that had been detailed in the tender document. The flight trials for the remaining five fighters are now expected to commence within three months, a senior MoD official said.
> &#8220;They did not meet the requirements and will not proceed to the next stage. We hope to begin trials within three months with the others that have qualified,&#8221; a top Defence Ministry official said.
> 
> While the French fighter was always considered an underdog in the competition, which has been described as the largest international defence contract in the world, it was been aggressively pushed by the French government. Former President Jacques Chirac and his successor Nichols Sarkozy have been talking about the fighter in all their interactions with India.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There goes the neutrals choice. I would think the path is clear for one of the U.S Jets now



man, your first post is a shocker......links???


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## RAZOR

guys now the game is full of suspense lets see whats gonna happen ...NEXT TO GO OUT WILL BE GRIPEN ...my bet then the f-16,mig-35 or both .....ef-2000 and SHORNET will be the final duo ....then comes the political angle ..if AMERICA LETS GO THE *E.U.L.A.* THEY WIN ...hope it happens soon ....or EADS might sweeten the deal with 15% cost cuts and full partnership in EADS ...man this will be something hard to resist .....considering historically those countries in EADS were fore runners of aviation in its boom time ..i.e, WW2 ...now they have come together ....india is currently in need of thechnical tie ups in aviation industry ....tot is just basics here 

i think rafale is like the lonely boy ....no sales world wide ...somethings not right with this trend ....what happened to the UAE deal 

ONE DOWN FOUR MORE TO GO


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## Keysersoze

dee said:


> There goes the neutrals choice. I would think the path is clear for one of the U.S Jets now



Apart from the Russian and Swedish aircraft...


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## maverick2009

Im very surprised 

I thought Rafael wud win the biggest contract of All.

Typhoon could be the winner after all the are favourites to supply NEW engine for LCA EJ200 along with F414 same engine as F18SH....


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## Born In The USA

Gripen NG will not go down so soon.


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## Jako

But the ef would be the slowest supplier,taking in view all its present contracts........that takes one feather out of the hat.


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## Gabbar

I am totaly surprised on this news. I though Rafael would be at least in top three. I guess it's between US aircrafts and Eurofighter now.


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## Born In The USA

maverick2009 said:


> Im very surprised
> 
> I thought Rafael wud win the biggest contract of All.
> 
> Typhoon could be the winner after all the are favourites to supply NEW engine for LCA EJ200 along with F414 same engine as F18SH....



I thought LCA would be eventually be powered by kaveri.

Typhoon is my favorite to win.


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## Born In The USA

Would the P-8 Poseidon deal increase F18s chances???


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## Screaming Skull

EF Typhoon is a strong contender. The goodies they are offering (expressed at AI2009) are simply mouth watering. Full ToT including EJ2000, joint marketing of LCA in Europe and other markets and my sources in HAL tell me that EJ2000 is pretty much confirmed for LCA-Mk2. 

Read this.....

*EADS flying the LCA into Indian market​*
.............In multiple interviews with senior Indian and EADS officials, who requested anonymity, Business Standard has pieced together the EADS strategy. The company has decided to supply India with high technology for Indian products that are not directly competing with an EADS product. The Tejas is not in the same category as the heavier Eurofighter.

Having established its presence in the Tejas programme, EADS is confident that it would be well positioned to get its Eurojet EJ200 engine accepted for the Tejas. India is currently deciding between the EJ200 and the GE-414 engine for powering future squadrons of the Tejas. And EADS believes that winning the contract for the EJ200 engine, and producing it in India, would position it perfectly for the lucrative medium fighter contract; twin EJ200 engines power the Eurofighter.

While willing to part with the technology assistance needed to get the LCA over its hump, EADS worries about the possibility of eventually being held responsible for a possible failure in the Tejas development.

Lets be clear that we are not underwriting the LCA programme," says a senior European official related with the contract. The contract with EADS is expected to be signed shortly.

Another likens EADS's role to helping someone in a dark room turn on the light switch. But EADS will do no more than indicate the direction of the switch.

The German and Spanish governments have already permitted EADS to part with the technology needed for the Tejas programme; the US government, in contrast, imposed stringent restrictions on Boeing. Explains a senior EADS official, *"If we don't supply technology, India will develop it anyway, perhaps with some delay. So it is better for us to establish our presence here, partner India in the Tejas, and perhaps even market it together.*


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## sancho

Kharian_Beast said:


> This might mean lower unit cost, but the capital spent on R&D funding, and logistical development from scratch, coupled with licensing and other tidbits would really fill the basket. 85 Million$ is also the lowest figure I've heard anyone quote. IAF would also have to wait a considerable amount of time for the delivery of the newer tranches. All in all, EF Typhoon is the costliest, most complicated and also most time consuming option.



Licensing if you already are a partner and why do they have to wait for delivery of new tranche? 

Sure it will be still a costly package (my first pick was Rafale), but what you get in return is also huge. One of the best fighters, one of the best engines, the radar should be also one of the best and if LCA really gets the same engine it will mean commonality for over 250 fighters, which reduces costs again. 
But after Rafale is out so early I am worried that the winner will be a political (nuke deal), or economical (Boeing / Tata ties) pick


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## gromell

DAMN!!!!!! Rafale's out!!!! that aircraft was sooo good....! anyway is Mig-35 still in??? i dont see the point of buying eurofighter with so much money! i smell British or american business or political scam here....


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## sms

*Dassault: India Ouster of Rafale Not Confirmed*
RIO DE JANEIRO - A Dassault Aviation spokesman said the company had not received information from Indian authorities following press reports that the company's Rafale strike fighter has been ejected from India's tender for 126 Medium Range Multi Role Combat Aircraft.

"We have not had any information" from Indian officials, said the spokesman, who was attending the Latin America Aerospace and Defense show here.

In New Delhi, a senior Defense Ministry official said Dassault had been unable to give full technical bid requirements, but declined to give details.

If confirmed, deletion of the Dassault bid would leave five aircraft in the Indian contest - the Boeing F/A-18, Eurofighter Typhoon, Lockheed Martin F-16, MiG-35 and the Saab Gripen.
*

Dassault: India Ouster of Rafale Not Confirmed - Defense News

The Rafale is still among the contenders - along with the F/A-18 Super Hornet and the Gripen - in Brazil's FX-2 competition for an initial 36 multimission aircraft.*


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## zombie

This is pretty disappointing. Cant believe the Rafale couldnt meet requirements that the Gripen could meet. There is something fishy.



gromell said:


> DAMN!!!!!! Rafale's out!!!! that aircraft was sooo good....! anyway is Mig-35 still in??? i dont see the point of buying eurofighter with so much money! i smell British or american business or political scam here....



I agree with you. And cant believe that a plane like Mig-35 without anything more than a couple of demonstrators created so far would still be in the fray..especially with so many issues with Mig-29 out of which Mig-35 is based.


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## Sam Dhanraj

Indian Rafale Out, MMRCA Trials by August​

Neelam Mathews/New Delhi mathews.neelam@gmail.com

Dassault Aviation's Rafale has been booted from competition for India's 126 Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA).

This leaves the Boeing F/A-18, Lockheed Martin F-16, Eurofighter Typhoon, RSK MiG-35 and Saab Gripen in the race.

All the contenders were awaiting word from the Indian defense ministry on final dates for field trials, which they hoped would be this summer. Currently, officials seem to still disagree.

*Flight trials will be held "anytime between July and August," one defense official told Aviation Week. But another senior official said he did not expect the trials to start before September.*

Nevertheless, things are moving fast. Aviation Week had learned recently that the Indian air force completed technical evaluation a few months ago and had submitted its Flight Evaluation report to the ministry.

*The air force has already started meeting vendors and has asked them to forward 10 names each as required to do a site survey for security clearance. The vendors also are being asked to give their preferential time for flight evaluation.*

*In the first phase,* the air force will send two teams of three pilots each to be familiarized and trained on vendors' aircraft simulators.

*In the second phase,* flight trials will be conducted in India on two twin-seater aircraft. In India, a sortie will be made for heat and dust trials in the desert region of Jaisalmer lasting for two or three days, in Bengaluru for tropical conditions for 10-12 days, and in the mountainous region around Leh for a day of high-altitude trials.

It is expected, however, that the flight evaluation trials will be completed by March next year.

*The final phase* to be conducted in the vendor's country, including flying a single-seater, will showcase weapons, radar and electronic weapons, as well as maintenance evaluation trials.

*Rafale proponents previously let known their disappointment that an exhaustive matrix table had been laid out based on a basic minimum performance in the request for proposals, and that there were no bonus points on over-compliance.*

Field trials once were expected immediately following the Bengaluru air show in mid-February. But since the dates were not announced, Gripen and Rafale did not bring their aircraft to the air show.

Earlier, many vendors Aviation Week spoke to said they hoped the down-select would be made before the trials to enable them to be completed this year. Some indicated since the cost of holding the trials exceeded $20 million, it would help in conserving cash in this global economic recession.


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## gromell

zombie said:


> This is pretty disappointing. Cant believe the Rafale couldnt meet requirements that the Gripen could meet. There is something fishy.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with you. And cant believe that a plane like Mig-35 without anything more than a couple of demonstrators created so far would still be in the fray..especially with so many issues with Mig-29 out of which Mig-35 is based.



yeah bro you are right. except i personally think there is nothing wrong in mig-35. mig-29 issue was about being more than 20 years old in service and also lack of upgrade as u know russians after fall of USSR stopped overhauling migs and concentrated on upgrading su-27 fleet because of financial crunch. Mig29 and mig-35 are still absolutely brilliant jets with excellent airframe, a result of the same R&D that resulted in su-27 air frame. but u see out of all the delta wing platforms, i thought rafale was the best! I am comparing it with the Eurofighter and Gripen. If India buys either of these two now, I think then there might be something fishy going inside(look at saudi deal with BAE systems on eurofighter! and we all know how desperate are the Saab). Superhornet...I dont know, it's not a medium weight jet or even USAF don't use it as land based fighter. Indians have Su-30MKI, they don't need superhornet. With all due respect the age of F-16 has gone, Pakistan has it and India must look something better than F-16. However, Mig-35 is brilliant. It will have the first Russian AESA radar and the best of the Russian tech. Indians will fit them with Israeli ELTA AESA radars anyway. It also has one of the best 3D thrust vectoring nozzles, if not the most advnced one right now. so I think Mig-35 is a good choice except now that rafales gone, i don't see Mig-35 making in either

The only doubt was about Rafale's engine performance, specially when Eurofighter's engine is much hyped about. But Is Gripen's engine any better than rafale's? The swedish jet's a single engine right?not even twin! I am waiting to see what Indian defence ministry shows as the specific reason...if they do at all.


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## asq

satishkumarcsc said:


> So if you fly these aircrafts then they are Pakistani aircrafts?...what is your logic behind this?



Logic is (u Indians, always questioning) that Saudis have yet to learn the intricacies of such things. We know cause we have been providing them this kind of help for a long time, in the 1972 yumkappur war with Israel, Pakistani pilots flying Syrian jets wreaked havoc on Israeli Air force. 

Pakistani pilots are the best in Asia. Only Pilot who has been declared Ace in Asia is a Pakistani. read on.

Pakistan Military Consortium :: www.PakDef.info

http://www.pakdef.info/pakmilitary/airforce/war/golanwar2.html

http://www.paf.gov.pk/feats.htm


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## gromell

asq said:


> Pakistani pilots are the best in Asia. Only Pilot who has been declared Ace in Asia is a Pakistani. read on.




you mean Bengali pilots and Pakistani pilots are the best in the world right? cause including the ace you are referring to, all 3 top pilots of Pakistan air force were Bengali and out of them, the pilot who downed most number of Israeli fighter later joined BAF after 71. These three all time top scoring pilots, everyone of them also being Bengali, who had flown for PAF are:

1. M. M. Alam, flying-ace

2. Sarfaraz Ahmed Rafiqui, shaheed in 1965 war and the 3rd highest scoring PAF pilot after the other two in this list.

3. Saiful Azam, the highest scoring muslim pilot against Israel with 4 kills in 1967 Arab-Israel war. he was not allowed to fly in 1971 cause he was Bengali and chose to join BAF in 1972. If he remained in PAF we would have seen him in Yum Kippur war kicking few more zionist *** and if he was not the victim of racial discrimination in 1971, then there would have been some IAF pilots with very bad luck(he was noted for downing an indian gnat in 1965 flying in his PAF sabre. gnat is usually known as sabre-killer).


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## Patriot

gromell said:


> you mean Bengali pilots and Pakistani pilots are the best in the world right? cause including the ace you are referring to, all 3 top pilots of Pakistan air force were Bengali and out of them, the pilot who downed most number of Israeli fighter later joined BAF after 71. These three all time top scoring pilots, eveyone of them also being Bengali, who had flown for PAF are:
> 
> 1. M. M. Alam, flying-ace
> 
> 2. Sarfaraz Ahmed Rafiqui, shaheed in 1965 war and the 2nd/3rd highest scoring PAF pilot.
> 
> 3. Saiful Azam, the highest scoring muslim pilot against Israel with 4 kills in 1967 Arab-Israel war. he was not allowed to fly in 1971 cause he was Bengali and chose to join BAF in 1972. If he remained in PAF we would have seen him in Yum Kippur war kicking few more zionist *** and if he was not the victim of racial discrimination in 1971, then there would have been some IAF pilots with very bad luck(he was noted for downing an indian gnat in 1965 flying in his PAF sabre. gnat is usually known as sabre-killer).


hehe..are you saying Benglai Race humans are better pilots?Sorry but if it was not for PAF excellent training they would be poor pilots.Ultimately, it's PAF excellent leadership, training because of which we have excellent pilots today..You can pitch BAF vs PAF anyday in the week and PAF will emerge victorious.There is not even a comparison between PAF and BAF and who said Indian's dont have good pilots.They certainly have some of the best Pilots in Asia.It's the skill that matters not the Race.Anyway I can imagine your hate for Pakistani.Regardless of your Banglai Superiority opinion, I don't think your opinion matters much to Pakistani.We all know how good Pakistani pilots are and even some Indians accept that (Except Young Indian's who don't know the history) and similarly we also agree IAF have good pilots.It's only BAF which sucks .
Mods: Please move these posts to appropriate thread.


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## gromell

saadahmed said:


> hehe..are you saying Benglai Race humans are better pilots?Sorry but if it was not for PAF excellent training they would be poor pilots.Ultimately, it's PAF excellent leadership, training because of which we have excellent pilots today..You can pitch BAF vs PAF anyday in the week and PAF will emerge victorious.There is not even a comparison between PAF and BAF and who said Indian's dont have good pilots.They certainly have some of the best Pilots in Asia.It's the skill that matters not the Race.Anyway I can imagine your hate for Pakistani.Regardless of your Banglai Superiority opinion, I don't think your opinion matters much to Pakistani.We all know how good Pakistani pilots are and even some Indians accept that (Except Young Indian's who don't know the history) and similarly we also agree IAF have good pilots.It's only BAF which sucks .
> Mods: Please move these posts to appropriate thread.



you are assuming i am saying bengalis r superior. that's absolutely rubbish. All i said, the top scoring ace or pilots from asia for last 60 years have been bengalis dont beieve me?look at the statistics and i stated clearly PAF's name along with them. I have more respect for IAF pilots than any pakistani, so dont say crap there please. where did i say indian pilots are not good?!:S IAF has been more effective since 1971 than PAF. Beside BAF wont stand a chance against PAF because we dont have the equipment here, not because our pilots are any inferior and also PAF wont face BAF, it would face IAF so worry about that 
Officers like Saiful Azam and other highly decorated ex-PAF Bengali officers modeled the BAF training system. So dont underestimate BAF as it was actually founded by the best pilots from PAF.


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## gromell

and it is Bengali or Bangali, not Benglai please...


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## white_pawn

BIDDING GOODBYE 

*French fighter Rafael out of IAF jet deal race *

Rajat Pandit | TNN 

New Delhi: French fighter Rafale has being knocked out of the race for the mother of all defence deals, the Rs 42,000 crore project to acquire 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) for IAF, leaving five jets in the fray now. 
Defence ministry (MoD) sources on Thursday said Rafale had fallen short on several counts listed in the GSQRs (general staff qualitative requirements) drawn up by IAF. It did not pass muster in the technical evaluation of the bids submitted by the six contenders, said a source. The move is sure to rile France, which like other countries in the contention for what will be the largest global defence contract had mounted a high-voltage campaign for the $10.4 billion MMRCA contract. 
We have no confirmation from the Indian MoD... We are extremely surprised since there was no technical lacuna in our bid, said a French official. 
Incidentally, India and France are also yet to settle their bitter differences for the upgrade of the 51 Mirage-2000s in IAFs combat fleet despite being locked in negotiations for over two years now. 
Sources said French fighter manufacturer Dassault Aviation wants well over Rs 12,000 crore for the project but India is not prepared to pay a penny over Rs 10,000 crore. 
As for the MMRCA battle, India will now invite only American F/A-18 Super Hornet (Boeing) and F-16 Falcon (Lockheed Martin), Russian MiG-35 (United Aircraft Corporation), Swedish Gripen (Saab) and Eurofighter Typhoon (consortium of British, German, Spanish and Italian frims) to take part in the field trials likely to begin from July. 
IAF HQ is drawing up the modalities for the field trials to begin in three months, said the source. The race is actually quite a marathon. The commercial bids will only be opened, examined and compared after a shortlist is made of two to three top contenders following the extensive field trials and staff evaluation. With the final negotiations to begin thereafter, the entire process is expected to take a minimum of two years before the contract is actually inked.


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## Neo

> Defence ministry (MoD) sources on Thursday said Rafale had fallen short on several counts listed in the GSQRs (general staff qualitative requirements) drawn up by IAF. *It did not pass muster in the technical evaluation of the bids submitted by the six contenders,* said a source.



Could you please shed more light into this? 
Thanks!


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## white_pawn

Not much details have been revailed yet, as i find it will Elaborate and post.


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## duhastmish

Neo said:


> Could you please shed more light into this?
> Thanks!



Well - The great indian airforce want a bloody UDAN Khatola!! This modern piece of junk is not their cup of tea, lol I think these bus tards denied Rafael because - they cant fly em. with their shaky little hands and tiny lil finger lol.
Like i said we as Indian dont deserve good deal we need a boot right on our arse. ThERE is simply something fishy going on, i can't belive rafele is out without even trials . lol S.O.B these times make me feel like shyt for being an Indian.
I think we need ---





this for MRCA. LOL

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## Screaming Skull

France firm out of $10 bn fighter deal with India


Neo said:


> Could you please shed more light into this?
> Thanks!



I have collated some info frm various sources....srill the reason is not clear.

"Rafale proponents previously let known their disappointment that an exhaustive matrix table had been laid out based on a basic minimum performance in the request for proposals, and that there were no bonus points on over-compliance."....Indian Rafale Out, MMRCA Trials by August | AVIATION WEEK

"Though reasons for rejecting Rafale was not revealed, sources indicated that the high cost of the aircraft was one of the factors. "The reasons would be officially communicated to the company," .....DNA: India: French 'Rafale' aircraft out of India's MMRCA race

"There were some shortcomings (in the Dassault bid)," the official said. "The other contenders are still in the race," the official said, without elaborating.....2nd UPDATE: India Rejects Dassault Aviation's Combat Jet Bid

"(Dassault's) Rafale did not meet the usual requirements," the Indian defence ministry spokesman said.

"So far, Rafale International has received no information from official Indian sources on this matter," a Dassault spokesman said. "French officials are inquiring with Indian authorities in order to get additional information about it."...http://ibnlive.in.com/news/france-firm-out-of-10-bn-fighter-deal-with-india/90441-3.html

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## Patriot

Well, Rafale seems to be a very credible platform..Now i am just speculating but maybe some company has setup slush funds for Indian Politicans/Generals.Remember American's and British are far better in this kind of stuff then French.


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## duhastmish

Another billion$ goes to already existing -$1456 billion in swiss bank- lol How pathetic.
It reminds me -
*
10 mein se 9 be Imaan 
Phir bhi mera Bharat mahan!!!!*


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## LCA

French fighter jet out of race for biggest IAF deal - India - The Times of India

*French fighter jet out of race for biggest IAF deal*
17 Apr 2009, 0310 hrs IST, Rajat Pandit, TNN
Print Email Discuss Share Save Comment Text:

NEW DELHI: French fighter Rafale has been knocked out of the race for the 'mother of all defence deals', the Rs 42,000 crore project to acquire
126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) for IAF, leaving five jets in the fray now.

Defence ministry (MoD) sources on Thursday said Rafale had 'fallen short' on 'several counts' listed in the GSQRs (general staff qualitative requirements) drawn up by IAF. "It did not pass muster in the technical evaluation of the bids submitted by the six contenders," said a source.

The move is sure to rile France, which like other countries in the contention for what will be the largest global defence contract had mounted a high-voltage campaign for the $10.4 billion MMRCA contract. *"We have no confirmation from the Indian MoD... We are extremely surprised since there was no technical lacuna in our bid,"* said a French official.

Incidentally, India and France are also yet to settle their bitter differences for the upgrade of the 51 Mirage-2000s in IAF's combat fleet despite being locked in negotiations for over two years now. Sources said French fighter manufacturer Dassault Aviation wants well over Rs 12,000 crore for the project, but India is not prepared to pay a penny over Rs 10,000 crore.

As for the MMRCA battle, India will now invite only American F/A-18 'Super Hornet' (Boeing) and F-16 'Falcon' (Lockheed Martin), Russian MiG-35 (United Aircraft Corporation), Swedish Gripen (Saab) and Eurofighter Typhoon (consortium of British, German, Spanish and Italian companies) to take part in the field trials which are likely to begin from July-August.

"IAF HQ is drawing up the modalities for the field trials to begin in around three months," said the source. There will be at least two sets of trials conducted in summer and winter, with the five jets being flown in the snow-capped peaks of Leh, the scorching Rajasthan deserts (probably Jaisalmer) and the humid conditions of south India (probably Bangalore).

The race, of course, is actually quite a marathon. The commercial bids will only be opened, examined and compared after a shortlist is made of two to three top contenders following the extensive field trials and staff evaluation.

With the final negotiations to begin thereafter, the entire process is expected to take a minimum of two years before the contract is actually inked. *IAF hopes to induct the first lot of the new fighters  18 jets will be bought off-the-shelf, while the rest will be manufactured in India under transfer of technology  by 2012-2013.* (if f-16 and f-18,then)

i think this may be the rumour like gripen,few days back


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## FC-20

wat the hell, rafale out!!!! 
can anyone tell which TECHNICAL TESTS it failed, is there any political dimension involved in this???


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## godsavetheworld

FC-20 said:


> wat the hell, rafale out!!!!
> can anyone tell which TECHNICAL TESTS it failed, is there any political dimension involved in this???



Not really. I dont want to believe any politics when it comes to India's national security. To reject the rafale at this early stage only means the aircraft lacked the basic need of the IAF.


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## FC-20

sir, duhastmish

udhan khotala


quite amazing rafale out without trials amazing, wat standards is IAF looking for


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## duhastmish

UMMM finally offical - news is out - we got the reason why - we are not goign for rafael - as goig nby BAE history and f/a deal from Our trust worthy american friends.

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## sancho

Screaming Skull said:


> France firm out of $10 bn fighter deal with India
> 
> I have collated some info frm various sources....srill the reason is not clear.
> 
> "Rafale proponents previously let known their disappointment that an exhaustive matrix table had been laid out based on a basic minimum performance in the request for proposals, and that there were no bonus points on over-compliance."....Indian Rafale Out, MMRCA Trials by August | AVIATION WEEK
> 
> "Though reasons for rejecting Rafale was not revealed, sources indicated that the high cost of the aircraft was one of the factors. "The reasons would be officially communicated to the company," .....DNA: India: French 'Rafale' aircraft out of India's MMRCA race
> 
> "There were some shortcomings (in the Dassault bid)," the official said. "The other contenders are still in the race," the official said, without elaborating.....2nd UPDATE: India Rejects Dassault Aviation's Combat Jet Bid
> 
> "(Dassault's) Rafale did not meet the usual requirements," the Indian defence ministry spokesman said.
> 
> "So far, Rafale International has received no information from official Indian sources on this matter," a Dassault spokesman said. "French officials are inquiring with Indian authorities in order to get additional information about it."...http://ibnlive.in.com/news/france-firm-out-of-10-bn-fighter-deal-with-india/90441-3.html



The high cost of the fighter alone can't be a reason, otherwise EF which is more, or comparable expensive would be out too. Also the fact that Dassault still is not informed officially is interesting, maybe that all is just a wake-up call for them to do more if they want to win. 

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/04/livefist-column-why-rafale-goes-down.html


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## gromell

except engine performance, i don't see a single shortcoming in the French beauty. Aerodynamically I find it superior then any other delta wing platform right at this moment. The objective of the delta wing design is to make it highly agile, sacrificing some stability or giving it a relaxed stability while maintaining the limit. Taking all aerodynamics factors into consideration, Rafale is just near flawless 4.5 generation design, and better than Erofighter or Gripen. Also French avionics in it are supposedly very high tech. Indian pilots love flying dassault Mirage2000 and Rafale would have been perfect. I don't see any other reason than BAE bribing someone here


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## Gabbar

*Editorial-dassault-aviations-rafale-push-got-a-bug*

The French Dassault Aviation&#8217;s Rafale should be like any other so called 4th generation fighter aircraft. May be its two notches above its competitor, we do not know, we only saw some colored sales literature. May be it performed in Afghanistan. One thing for sure currently is that it does not has an export order. Dassault Aviation one great company. One may ask why such a wonderful aircraft and great company does not has an export order?

Ok, its not confirmed, it may be rumor mill or some dirty trick, even denied by Dassault that Rafale has been struck out of the Indian Air Force Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) contract. Many reasons have been dished out.

*As per the Indian Express report &#8220;The early elimination of the Rafale is also being attributed by insiders to its high cost and the failure to respond to technical queries. While commercial bids were to be opened at a later stage, the cost of the fighter was considerably more than most competitors. Insiders say the Ministry was also not very happy with the replies it received on technical queries sent after the French company submitted its technical bid.&#8221;*

How true is this report, we do not know and vouch for it. But the part we want to highlight is &#8221; Insiders say the Ministry was also not very happy with the replies it received on technical queries sent after the French company submitted its technical bid.&#8221;

The first time we noted the lack of interest from Dassault Aviation representatives was in Aero India 2005. Any query directed to them about the Rafale or any other system was met with lethargy or arrogance. For example, why did you not bring Rafale? Answer: We did not think it was important. The same question was posed to them in Aero India 2007 and Aero India 2009. The replies varied from nothing to oh! we have an European show, just one demo aircraft, the cost did not justify it, its flying some where else etc etc. We do not want to speak for others, but, we are sure that others have felt the indifference too.

If some one in the Ministry or Air Force is miffed on the attitude of the representatives, its understandable. 

Great products don&#8217;t sell by themselves. Even if they manage, certainly not with that attitude.

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## sob

I have a feeling that this is a pressure tactic to get the French to decide on the Mirage 2000 upgradation programme.


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## Gabbar

* Dassault unaware of any decision to disqualify Rafale news *

New Delhi: Unconfirmed reports suggest that the French fighter aircraft, Rafale, may have been disqualified from the Indian Air Force's Medium-range Multi-role Combat Aircraft tender, an approximately $11 billion deal for the supply of 126 aircraft. Dassault officials attending the Latin America Aerospace and Defense show at Rio de Janeiro have, however, denied receiving any information from Indian authorities in this regard. 

"We have not had any information from Indian officials,'' said a Dassault spokesman.

In New Delhi, a senior defense ministry official was quoted as saying that Dassault had been unable to give full technical bid requirements. No details were provided.

Reports quote defence ministry (MoD) ''sources'' as saying that the Rafale fighter had 'fallen short' on 'several counts' listed in the GSQRs (general staff qualitative requirements) drawn up by IAF. 

"It did not pass muster in the technical evaluation of the bids submitted by the six contenders," a ''source'' was quoted as saying. 

Dassault officials have stressed that there was no technical lacuna in their bid.

Should the Rafale be knocked out of the race for the MMRCA tender, there would now be five contestants left to bid for the contract &#8211;the American fighters F-16 (Fighting Falcon/Lockheed Martin), the F-18 (Super Hornet/Boeing), the Swedish representation Gripen JAS-39 (Saab), the Eurofighter Typhoon and the Russian MiG-35.

The Rafale is a high-priced fighter that has struggled to secure orders in various tenders around the world. 

It may be mentioned that in the recent past Indian authorities seem to have made it a habit to announce the award of contracts only to backtrack in a jiffy. With India now having become one of the largest arms market in the world, all tenders are riven with ambiguities, rivalries, claims and counter-claims. 

Sometime back a contract for the supply of helicopters to the Indian Army was awarded to Eurocopter only to be withdrawn on complaints filed by an American company, Bell Helicopter. This company itself subsequently withdrew from the tender on non-compliance issues, leaving the army without any helicopters or any immediate hopes of securing them.

Bell Helicopter, part of Textron, may itself be up for sale now as the company is unable to sustain business in the current business environment. 

As for the French, they have a reputation for coming up with classy but pricy products. The Indian Air Force maintains a fleet of some 50-odd Mirage 2000 fighters and has expressed its happiness at their performance time and again. Yet a deal to upgrade these fighters is hanging fire for well over two years now as Dassault's fancy prices have failed to impress Indian authorities.

Meanwhile, air force and defence ministry officials are gearing up to launch field trials of the contending aircraft in approximately three months time. Reports indicate that there would be summer and winter trials in locations spread across various geographical areas. Bases in Rajasthan, Ladakh and Bangalore will host competing aircraft. 

Commercial considerations will be taken up only after trials and evaluations are over. The earliest a selected MMRCA fighter can expect to enter service is 2013-14.


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## RAZOR

i seriously think its gripen-syndrome ....well at least something brought life to this dieing thread


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## gromell

*BAE System's Dirty Dealings​*
by Sasha Lilley, Special to CorpWatch
November 11th, 2003

It sounds like the stuff of pulp fiction: The UK's largest armaments producer running a £20 million ($33.4 million) slush fund to finance prostitutes, gambling trips, yachts, sports cars, and more for its most important clients the Saudi royal family and their intermediaries, greasing the wheels of the largest business deal in UK history. These are the accusations made last month by a former employee of weapons giant BAE Systems. And evidence has surfaced that members of the British government were aware of the bribe arrangement, but looked the other way.

BAE Systems, formerly known as British Aerospace, is one of the world's top arms producers. It manufactures warplanes, avionics, submarines, surface ships, radar, electronics, and guided weapons systems, generating annual sales of £12 billion ($20 billion) in 130 countries. The arms giant was formed as a nationalized British defense corporation in 1977, which was subsequently privatized in the early 1980s, and changed its name to BAE when British Aerospace merged with Marconi Electronic Systems in 1999.

BAE Systems' North American branch has an unusual special relationship with the Pentagon where it is treated as a domestic arms company. According to Ian Prichard of the British Campaign Against Arms Trade (CAAT), "BAES North America appears to be virtually a separate company - even top UK executives are not privy to the more sensitive work carried out by 'their' company in the US."

For years the company has been accused of selling arms to impoverished and dictatorial regimes, polluting the environment, and has been dogged for years by allegations of corrupt dealings. 

Now those allegations have exploded into the open. Revelations point to BAE's provision of enticements to the Saudis over a fifteen year period, starting in the late 1980s, using a front company Robert Lee International (RLI), to divert funds to the arms clients and their middlemen. Among other allegations, RLI procured prostitutes for visiting Saudi officials and bought houses for mistresses, while an internal BAE statement reportedly refers to "sex and bondage with Saudi princes". According to documents published by The Guardian, the British government's Serious Fraud Office (SFO) alerted the Ministry of Defense of the possible involvement of BAE's chairman Sir Richard Evans in the bribe scheme, but the Ministry of Defense did nothing. 

BAE Systems' chief executive Mike Turner didn't deny the slush fund charges. At a press conference following the revelations, he stated, "They are old allegations and they are old hat. They are history." Turner added, "Everything we do is legal and that is all I am prepared to say. Whatever the law is, we are legal." 

Al-Yamamah
The slush fund allegations are tied to the biggest export agreement in British history - the Al-Yamamah (The Dove) arms deals that the British government signed with the Saudi royal family. BAE, then known as British Aerospace, was to sell the Saudis 72 Tornado and 30 Hawk advanced fighter-bombers along with other tranches of military hardware. 

In an unusual barter arrangement between the two governments, the Saudis were to purchase the armaments in payments of oil, over an unspecified period of time. Over the last two and a half decades, the deals have amounted to the sale of 96 Tornado Fighters and more than 100 Hawk jets and other training aircraft totaling at least £20 billion ($33.4 billion), with BAE taking in an estimated £1.5 billion a year. BAE is currently in negotiations with the Saudis for a further extension of the Al-Yamamah deal.

The first Al-Yamamah deal was signed in 1986, when the Saudis' main armaments supplier, the United States, was blocked from selling arms to their longtime ally by an historic Congressional vote. The House of Saud turned to British weapons manufacturers instead. The Saudis were happy to reduce their dependence on the US, while the UK saw the petrodollar-rich Saudis as a long term bonanza. A second deal between the two governments was signed in 1988. Some analysts believe that Al-Yamamah kept BAE afloat through the 1990s when the company was facing financial difficulties. 

Rotten from the Beginning
While armaments transactions are known to be fraught with bribery, British journalist and arms trade opponent Gideon Burrows states that Al-Yamamah "may be the world's most corrupt deal". And while the scandal around allegations of the BAE slush fund are particularly lurid, accusations of corruption date back to the creation of Al-Yamamah I and II, as they've come to be known. 

According to former CIA operative Robert Baer much of the money that BAE registered as earnings from Al-Yamamah was earmarked from its inception for kickbacks to members of the Saudi royal family and other intermediaries. "[Al-Yamamah] was a huge commission-generating machine. British Aerospace overcharged for its hardware and spare parts, with the difference going to commissions."

The Saudis are not the only ones who may have profited from Al-Yamamah kickbacks. In 1994 MP Tam Dalyell accused the son of then Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher of receiving a £12 million commission from the Al-Yamamah deal, but the government declined to investigate the charges against Mark Thatcher. Less fortunate was British Defense Procurement Minister Jonathan Aiken who played a key role in setting up Al-Yamamah II. He was imprisoned in 1993 for letting the Saudis pick up his tab at the Paris Ritz. 

The British government and BAE have been criticized from the start by arms watchdog groups for selling weapons to a despotic, theocratic regime. Amnesty International characterizes Saudi Arabia, the world's top arms buyer, as a major violator of human rights: "Summary, unfair and secret trials are the norm in Saudi Arabia and torture is a common practice to extract confessions from suspects. Defendants facing capital charge are invariably convicted after trials which lack the most basic standards of fairness." A 1995 Channel 4 "Dispatches" documentary revealed that BAE tried to sell electric shock batons to Saudi Arabia two years earlier, which could be used for the torture of prisoners. 

*Hawk Jets
If the current allegations of the Saudi slush fund weren't bad enough, BAE is in the center of another storm of controversy. This summer, BAE finally clinched a highly contentious deal to sell 66 Hawk jets to India - for which the poverty-stricken nation paid £1billion ($1.7 billion). 

The agreement, which threatened to fall through a number of times, was helped along by the intervention of the British government. In 2002, in the midst of heightened tensions between India and Pakistan over Kashmir that threatened to turn into a nuclear war, British Prime Minister Tony Blair visited the two countries ostensibly on a peace-making mission. However, as the Indian media revealed, he used the visit as an opportunity to promote the sale of BAE Systems Hawk jets, as did his Foreign Secretary Geoff Hoon later in the year. 

"The same time that the prime minister and the foreign secretary have been over in India trying to play a role as a peace broker in the Kashmir crisis, we've also in effect been acting as an arms broker," says Andy McLean of the London-based think tank Saferworld. "And the government has been directly pushing the sale of jets which we will know could be used both directly in Kashmir and also will be used to train Indian pilots to fly much more deadly fighter jets which could also be used in Kashmir and potentially which could be used to carry nuclear weapons."

McLean says that BAE Systems' dealings in India are not an anomaly. "The Hawk jet [has] almost become synonymous in the UK with scandal in the arms trade," he says. "It was Hawk jets that were licensed for export to Indonesia and were then found after years of protestation from human rights groups to have been used to intimate the civilian population in East Timor. This was denied by the government for years but was then actually admitted by the Indonesian armed forces."

The British government also allowed export licenses for the sale of BAE's Hawk jets to Zimbabwe, which is was later forced to revoke Zimbabwe became involved in the conflict in the Democratic Republic of the Congo. BAE has targeted other poor African countries for arms sales. "It was also British Aerospace which manufactured the military radar system that has cost the Tanzania people £28 million ($46.8 million) that could have been used on providing fresh water and vaccinations for the population there," says McLean. *
Government Role 
Business between BAE and the governments of impoverished countries like Indonesia, Zaire and Tanzania would not be possible without the sanctioning of the British state, which must issue export licenses for such sales to go through. Fortunately for BAE, the UK government - the world's second largest arms exporter - is a most faithful ally, promoting BAE's interests through the Ministry of Defense's Defense Export Sales Organisation (DESO), whose role is to encourage the sale of British weapons abroad. 

BAE and other arms companies get further assistance from the British government's Export Credit Guarantee Department (ECGD) which underwrites the transactions between the weapons companies and potentially unreliable buyers, loaning out UK tax payers' money for the foreign purchase of British-made arms. BAE has received more Export Credit Guarantees than any other UK company in recent times. 

The Blair Labour government has proved itself as steadfast a supporter of the arms industry in general, and BAE in particular, like the governments of its Conservative predecessors Margaret Thatcher and John Major - The Observer refers to BAE chairman Sir Richard Evans as "one of the few businessmen who can see Blair on request". Before its ascendancy to power, the Labour government promised to publish the conclusions of a 1992 investigation into charges of corruption by BAE in the Al-Yamamah deals by the National Audit Office (NAO). However, the audit has never been published. 

The Blair government has defended its backing of the arms industry by claiming that companies like BAE Systems play a central role in the economy. Arms critic Richard Bingley and former member of CAAT disagrees. "On the face of it, the arms export business is reckoned to be quite lucrative, its worth about £5 billion to the UK Exchequer every year. However, when you take away overheads and then also look at the fact that the arms trade is subsidized by about £1 billion per year by the UK Exchequer, actually you begin to see there's no profit line by exporting arms. So literally, it is at best an industry that pays for itself." 

Under Fire
Despite the British government's ongoing support for BAE, pressure is mounting on the armaments giant. Adding to the embarrassment of the slush fund scandal, activist groups like the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament, the International Action Network on Small Arms (IANSA), Oxfam, Amnesty International, and Friends of the Earth UK are putting the spotlight on BAE's role in perpetuating armed conflicts around the world. 

Earlier this year, Friends of the Earth UK launched a campaign against BAE's production of depleted uranium shells which have been used by British soldiers in Iraq. Hannah Griffiths, corporate campaigner at Friends of the Earth UK, said: "We want the directors of companies like BAE to take their duties to communities and the environment as seriously as they do their duties to the company's bottom line". 

The Campaign Against Arms Trade has also been targeting BAE with protests at 40 sites all across England, Wales and Scotland that belong to BAE or its subsidiaries, accusing BAE of fanning the flames of war. 

Meanwhile BAE has also targeted CAAT. The Sunday Times (London) revealed in September that BAE paid a private intelligence firm £120,000 a year to infiltrate and spy on CAAT over a four year period in the 1990s. The head of the firm told BAE that she had a database containing more than 148,000 names and addresses of arms trade and peace activists, environmentalists and union members. CAAT issued a statement denouncing BAE's actions. "The alleged theft of the supporter database, by copying it, is illegal and entirely unacceptable. CAAT is considering how to pursue the allegation," it said. 

A New Al-Yamamah
In spite of the recent bribery revelations, BAE is intent on pressing ahead with a new Al-Yamamah deal with the Saudis, according to a statement by the Swiss investment bank UBS. 

In the last decade and a half the Saudis have had difficulties holding up their end of the arms-for-oil bargain, as the price of petroleum has fluctuated and the Saudi domestic debt has continued to mushroom, while arms purchases gobble up a third of the national budget. However, recently Saudi Arabia's fortunes have been buoyed by higher oil prices, while their relationship with their other main weapons supplier has gotten chillier. "Now that the US is on the outs with the Saudis and pulling US troops out of Saudi Arabia, the Saudis are looking more to Europe for their defense needs," says analyst Frida Berrigan of the Arms Trade Resource Center in New York. 

The new agreement would be to upgrade 85 Tornado fighter planes that were purchased in an earlier Al-Yamamah deal. If it goes through it would be a boost to the beleaguered weapons giant, which has been having difficulties arranging a merger with a US defense company. But it would be anything but a boon for British taxpayers, who would continue to subsidize BAE, or the Saudi populace, who would see none of the kickbacks flowing to the House of Saud -- just the further perpetuation of the royal family's corrupt rule. 

Listen to the audio version of this story on Free Speech Radio News

Sasha Lilley is Research Coordinator/ Editor at CorpWatch and a Producer for Pacifica Radio's KPFA.


----------



## gromell

BAE has bad record of unfair backstage dealings ...


----------



## LCA

Indian Air Force says Rafale still in fighter competition-20/04/2009-Singapore-Flight International

*The Indian Air Force has denied reports that the Dassault Rafale has been *
eliminated from the countrys medium multi-role combat aircraft competition. 

We have not ruled anyone out yet in the MMRCA competition, says an IAF spokesman, who confirmed that the service is responsible for evaluating the contenders. All of the tests have not been completed. The technical evaluations are only just over and we are scheduled to begin the flight tests next month. Everyone is still in the competition.

Last week, several Indian newspapers reported that the Rafale was eliminated after failing the technical evaluation. When contacted, Dassault said that it is waiting for information from the French embassy in India as negotiations are conducted on a government-to-government basis. The embassy had no comment. 

The aircraft was not brought to the Aero India 2009 show in Bangalore in February, leading to speculation that it was in danger of being eliminated from the competition. A senior French official, however, defended the no-show at the time saying that the countrys aircraft were required for NATO operations in Afghanistan. 

Rex Features/Sipa Press

Apart from the Rafale (above), the other five contenders for the $10-12 billion contract are the Boeing F/A-18E/F, Eurofighter Typhoon, Lockheed Martin F-16, RSK MiG-35, and Saab Gripen. India is scheduled to begin hot weather trials in May, and the aircraft will be tested in cold weather and humid conditions later in the year. 

This is not the first time that the Indian media have reported that an aircraft has been eliminated from this closely watched competition. Early this year, it was reported that the Gripen had been knocked out but this was later proven untrue. 

India is seeking 126 aircraft in the competition, of which 18 will be bought in fly-away condition and 108 license produced by Hindustan Aeronautics in the country. There is also an option for another 64 aircraft. The fighter chosen will replace the IAFs RSK MiG-21s


----------



## Moscow

The Indian Air Force has denied reports that the Dassault Rafale has been eliminated from the countrys medium multi-role combat aircraft competition. 
We have not ruled anyone out yet in the MMRCA competition, says an IAF spokesman, who confirmed that the service is responsible for evaluating the contenders. All of the tests have not been completed. The technical evaluations are only just over and we are scheduled to begin the flight tests next month. Everyone is still in the competition.
Last week, several Indian newspapers reported that the Rafale was eliminated after failing the technical evaluation. When contacted, Dassault said that it is waiting for information from the French embassy in India as negotiations are conducted on a government-to-government basis. The embassy had no comment. 
The aircraft was not brought to the Aero India 2009 show in Bangalore in February, leading to speculation that it was in danger of being eliminated from the competition. A senior French official, however, defended the no-show at the time saying that the countrys aircraft were required for NATO operations in Afghanistan. 


Indian Air Force says Rafale still in fighter competition-20/04/2009-Singapore-Flight International


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## lilaspr

Well, it appears that the reports of the French Fighter's demise have been exaggerated.

No clue as to what is going on there, or why. 

Wasn't a shocker, the if French Rafael has been knocked off.

That's really unfortunate for the Rafale, because India was its last hope for a substantial foreign sale.

Rafale has better thrust/weight ratio and is more manouverable,smaller ,lighter and consumes less fuel and can carry more payload than f18 superhornet.

Standing are: 

F-16. old reliable
F/A-18, reliable and powerful (good price)
Typhoon (too expensive without subsidies)
Mig-35 (MY PICK FOR INDIA if not Typhoon)
Grippen: Good price, adequate performance carries anti air missiles to wipe out any competition, its only competitor in high speed maneouvers, Rafaele, is out.


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## Screaming Skull

*India to remain key customer of Russian combat aircrafts​*
Tue, Apr 21, 2009

Moscow: India will remain the main purchaser of Russian-made combat aircraft for the next 15 years under existing and prospective contracts, a Russian think tank has said.

In its report titled "The Forecast for Combat Aircraft Deliveries to India", the Center for Analysis and Technologies outlined the prospects for Russian-Indian cooperation.

The report predicts that India will buy up to 90 Su-30 MKI fighters under existing contracts and may also purchase additional Su-30 or modernised MiG-29K.

Russia's MiG-35 Fulcrum is also participating in the current $10.6-billion tender to supply 126 multirole fighters to the Indian Air Force.

*Russian experts believe that the MiG-35 has an excellent chance of winning the tender because the Russian aircraft has superb performance characteristics and Russia and India share a long-standing partnership in strategic and military-technical cooperation.*

In addition, Russia signed in March last year a contract with the Indian defence ministry to upgrade around 70 MiG-29 fighters, in service since the 1980s, and agreed to develop a fifth-generation fighter together with India.

India desperately needs to upgrade its fighter fleet, which includes Su-30MKI and MiG-29 fighters, but mainly consists of obsolete Russian MiG-21 models.


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## Gabbar

*Rafale out of contest, diplomatic push by France*
New Delhi: 

Days after Dassault&#8217;s Rafale fighter was knocked off the $10-billion contract for providing combat aircraft for the Indian Air Force, French Ambassador J&#233;r&#244;me Bonnafont met senior Defence Ministry officials to enquire about the status of the deal. 

It is learnt that the Ambassador met Defence Secretary Vijay Singh on Tuesday and talked about the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) deal among other things. Sources said Bonnafont inquired about &#8216;media reports&#8217; that talked about the oust of the French fighter from the mega deal. 

The Ambassador is believed to have been informed that the selection process for the contract was still on and it would take a few weeks before proceeding to the next stage. 
However, sources in the ministry maintain that the French fighter would not make it to the next stage as it has not met the technical requirements set in the tender that was floated in 2007. 
The tedious process for purchasing the 126 fighters to boost dipping force levels of the Indian Air Force (IAF) will now proceed to the next stage of flight trials where the aircraft will be tested in difficult weather conditions. Trials are expected to take place in Bangalore, Jaisalmer and Leh. 



The summer trials are set to start within three months and the remaining five contenders will be sent letters to bring in their aircraft for evaluation shortly. 



The IAF is keen to conclude the contract as fast as possible given that its fighter levels had come down to an all time low of 32 squadrons against an official level of 39.5 and a &#8216;desired&#8217; level of 42 squadrons. The most optimistic predictions too suggest the final signing of the contract not before 2011, which would mean that the first fighters would land in India by 2013.


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## Gabbar

*LINK:* AESA TESTED ON RAFAEL!!!


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## sancho

Gabbar said:


> *LINK:* AESA TESTED ON RAFAEL!!!



Link doesn't work.


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## sms

Another denial from Dassault ... who knows what's cooking?



> *Dassault denies India ruled out Rafale for fighter contract*
> 
> BRUSSELS, April 24 (UPI) -- Dassault denies India ruled out Rafale for fighter contract
> 
> French company Dassault has denied reports that it has been eliminated from the international race to sell 126 new combat aircraft to India.
> 
> The long-drawn-out competition has been going on for nearly two years, and Russia's Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-35MKI remains the favorite to win it. The Indian air force has primarily relied upon Soviet or Russian combat aircraft for nearly 40 years. By contrast, France has failed in almost all of its efforts over the past 10 years to land significant export contracts for its Rafale fighter jet.
> 
> India has specified that it requires a Medium-Range Multi-Role Combat Aircraft weighing 14 to 30 tons that can carry out both air-defense and air-to-surface missions. The first 18 aircraft should be ready for use while the next 108 will be built by Hindustan Aeronautics as a result of a technology transfer.
> 
> Defense News reported last week that the Rafale was believed to have been eliminated from the race by Indian defense officials. Dassault denied the claims, but Defense News said Dassault had failed to disclose fully whether the Rafale would meet the Indian air force's technical requirements.
> 
> Dassault said it had not been informed yet by the Indian government on the outcome of the competition. However, senior Indian military officials have told the press that they had dropped the Rafael from consideration.
> 
> The Indian air force is still considering the Eurofighter Typhoon, which is built by the European Aeronautic Defense and Space Co., the Gripen, which is built by Saab of Sweden, the MiG-35 and Boeing's F/A-18 Super Hornet and Lockheed Martin's F-16 Fighting Falcon from the United States.
> 
> In the next round of the competition, the jets will be tested in flight trials over the next two months, after which their weapons will be tested. Finally, the Indian government will evaluate the commercial bids and make its decision.


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## Super Falcon

what ever F 18 going to win the contract for sure


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## sms

Super Falcon said:


> what ever F 18 going to win the contract for sure



What's the rational behind your statement? Pls. elaborate


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## TOPGUN

So was wondering from members who do u think is gona win the place for IAF needs?


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## MZUBAIR

TOPGUN said:


> So was wondering from members who do u think is gona win the place for IAF needs?



Indian MRCA is on going competition of 126 Multirole Combat Aircraft.
Competitors are:-
1) Rafale.
2) Typhoon
3) F16 C/D
4) F/A -18EF
5) Jas 39 Gripen
6) Mig-35.

Now lets talk one by one
1) Rafale.
There are rumours that India will not go for Rafale. Because of its high selling cost and high manintenance cost. So in my view India will never go for it.
Unit cost for Rafale is US$90 to US$95 million 

2) Typhoon
It is very strong Competitor and might win but it has fewer chances then Mig-35.

3) F16 C/D
India will never go for it coz there are 2 reasons.
First Pakistan has also F16's and second Indians are not familiar with US fighter plane structures.
I think buying F16 C/D would not be justifiable for India.
I feel they will not consider it to much.

4) F/A -18EF
These are more special for Naval Air support. Surely india never wants this for MRCA.

5) Jas 39 Gripen
Its good plane but again rumours are their that Saab is tranfaring technology to support LCA. 

6) Mig-35.
I think its the most strongest competitor in the game. India knows very much about Russian technology and they will surely would go for it. I have very hard feelings that India will take Mig35

Basically India had made this deal more political, which will surely create problems for India in the end when they will finalise any one of the above deal the other will surely get angry. India also tried to block Pakistan in many miltary deals using MRCA politics.
When they will sign with one of them, then others options will be available for Pakistan. l hope till then Pakistan will improve their economy.

May be this will open the doars of Rafale avionics for JF-17. Which I think Pakistan is doing. Besides that Pakistan might buy few Mirage 2k-5 from UAE with the help of France. coz India will never go for old fleats as PAF did in past for Mirage 3/5

I think PAF is not intrested in any one of these Rafale,Typhoon, F16 C/D (already have, may be buy few old one's and upgrade (MLU) them as they did with mirage with ROSE program), F/A -18EF, Jas 39
Gripen, Mig-35.

I feel PAF will look to imrpove JF-17 with western avionics and in future might purchase Chinees J-XX

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## LCA

^^^^^^

Can u provide the link about F-16 that IAF going for C/D version because they talk about E/F version for MMRCA .

And also some information about J-XX

and the no. of sq. of JF inducted in PAF, which they are going to upgrade with French Electronics.


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## sancho

MZUBAIR said:


> 1) Rafale.
> There are rumours that India will not go for Rafale. Because of its high selling cost and high manintenance cost. So in my view India will never go for it.
> Unit cost for Rafale is US$90 to US$95 million


That's not quiet correct, the Rafale could be the cheapest in maintenance of the double engine fighters. The unit cost offered for Saudi was around 63 mil, that's $83 mil now and we want nearly double as much aircrafts, so I guess it must be $80 mil maximum. 
If you compare just all the MRCA against each other, Rafale offers the most for IAF(AESA, good a2a and a2g capabilities, french avionics a.s.o). 
The problem I see at the moment is, that it can use mostly french weapons, which are good but pretty expensive. Secondly it would offer less commonality to other IAF fighters. EF and F18SH for example offers there engine and maybe also AESA radars for LCA, Rafale could only offer the radar, cause the engine is not good enough. 
Also imo a Rafale would compete with the roles of a possible MCA, cause both are, or should be mainly for BVR combats and precision strikes. The difference will only be the stealth capabilities of MCA, which should be better to the low RCS of Rafale, but size, weapons and even radar and engine could be the same.
If you have Rafale, Mki and will get FGFA, all roles should be filled and MCA would only make sense as a replacement of Mki, or Rafale, so I doubt that we get both.


MZUBAIR said:


> Basically India had made this deal more political, which will surely create problems for India in the end when they will finalise any one of the above deal the other will surely get angry. India also tried to block Pakistan in many miltary deals using MRCA politics.
> When they will sign with one of them, then others options will be available for Pakistan. l hope till then Pakistan will improve their economy.


If you mean Russia with the angry other side I can't agree, cause besides this deal we have more than enough deals going on with them (80 Mi 17 helicopter, IL 76 for AWECS, Mig 29 K and Gorshkov, Pak Fa coop, MTA coop, BrahMos coop...). Even if we go for US fighters this time, everybody knows that the close relationship between India and Russia won't change. 
And I doubt that there are many options for PAF in the MRCA, cause some of them are too expensive (Rafale, EF), Mig might be blocked politically, you already have F16, Gripen NG is the same size and would compete J10 also. The only fighter that is left would be F18 SH which would be a benefit for PAF, but I wonder if US offer it to you and if you want to take the risk with US fighters again?
Much more realistic is the purchase of engine, radar, or avionics for JF 17 and J10 from one of the MRCA fighters, most likely from F16 IN, Gripen NG, or maybe Rafale. That is something that IAF can't control even if we would buy one of these fighter, so I don't think they bother too much what PAF could get.


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## TOPGUN

Boss we have no need for the f-18's nor will the US ever offer them to us!!


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## MZUBAIR

LCA said:


> ^^^^^^
> 
> Can u provide the link about F-16 that IAF going for C/D version because they talk about E/F version for MMRCA .



Link for you



> And also some information about J-XX



sino defence.com jxx



> and the no. of sq. of JF inducted in PAF, which they are going to upgrade with French Electronics.



he first ever Fighter Squadron of JF-17 Thunder aircraft will be raised and stationed at Pakistan Air Force Base, Peshawar

Peshawar Base to station JF-17 Thunder Aircraft Squadron: Pak Air Chief


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## MZUBAIR

sancho said:


> That's not quiet correct, the Rafale could be the cheapest in maintenance of the double engine fighters. The unit cost offered for Saudi was around 63 mil, *that's $83 mil *now and we want nearly double as much aircrafts, so I guess it must be $80 mil maximum.


That was in 2008 deal. But still $80 mil is more ....even it would not be the price of F-35



> Also imo a Rafale would compete with the roles of a possible MCA, cause both are, or should be mainly for BVR combats and precision strikes. The difference will only be the stealth capabilities of MCA, which should be better to the low RCS of Rafale, but size, weapons and even radar and engine could be the same.



First buy MRCA then think about MCA



> And I doubt that there are many options for PAF in the MRCA, cause some of them are too expensive (Rafale, EF), Mig might be blocked politically, you already have F16, Gripen NG is the same size and would compete J10 also. The only fighter that is left would be F18 SH which would be a benefit for PAF, but I wonder if US offer it to you and if you want to take the risk with US fighters again?


Agree but PAF will not go for F18 SH



> Much more realistic is the purchase of engine, radar, or avionics for JF 17 and J10 from one of the MRCA fighters, most likely from F16 IN, Gripen NG, or maybe Rafale.



I think Rafale avionics coz I read in a news few months ago that PAF will consider western avionics for JF-17 and most likely PAF will for french.


----------



## sancho

MZUBAIR said:


> Link for you


From point 3.3 Lockheed Martin F-16IN in that link:


> India initially sent the RFI for a F-16C/D Block 52+ configuration aircraft. On January 17, 2008, Lockheed Martin offered a customized version of the F-16, the F-16IN for the Indian MMRCA contract.[21] The F-16IN, which is similar to the F-16 Block 60, will be a 4.5 generation aircraft. Lockheed Martin has stated that it will be the most advanced F-16 variant developed.


So now a upg F16 E/F block 60 is offered for MMRCA


MZUBAIR said:


> That was in 2008 deal. But still $80 mil is more ....even it would not be the price of F-35


The problem is the high Euro compared to the low Dollar, that makes it so hard to export Rafale, EF and even Gripen. Sure $80, or $83 mil (systemprice with support, training, spares) comes close to F35 costs, but it is not on offer for IAF, EF is still more expensive and even Gripen NG is offered for Dutch AF with a systemprice of $75 mil. 

http://www.jsfnieuws.nl/wp-content/Saab_OfferGripenNG_170409.pdf

Btw, can you confirm these facts of the F16 block 52 that PAF want to buy? $3 bil for 36 makes also a systemprice of $83 mil, for sure because of the low numbers, but still pretty expensive.

Pakistan F-16 - Defesa@Net

But back to MMRCA, the point to me is what IAF really gets for their money. Rafale is costly but offers full ToT, source codes, no restrictions..., many things that the much cheaper US fighters can't offer. The most expensive EF offers a full partnership, something that US never would offer and even if you are a small partner (like GB at F35) you have to take what they give you. That's why I would prefer a european winner, even if we pay more we get more in return. Mig 35 could be the cheapest, but offer pretty much the same stuff we already have. So a high unit cost alone can't be the reason against one of these aircrafts.


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## LCA

@ muzabir

As u can see muzabir F-16 offer to india is not C/D but the E/F version.

And the link provided by u for J-XX said that very little information given about this project so it only like a illusion untill we get a confirmation from chinese gov,officialy.

and the link for JF clearly said that untill no operational sq. inducted in the PAF it *will* only at the end of 2009.

so how can u upgrade a fighter without even inducting???

*First buy MRCA then think about MCA*

i think u not properly understand sanch's post.
he only tried to said that if MCA got delayed then more no. of MMRCA can be inducted into the IAF.And for this he comparing MCA with Rafale.

And as far as your thinking about rafale avionics for JF , u need to induct the fighter first and build the Infra for maintenance,training,etc.

P.S : Article for J-XX said it is 4 gen aircraft, so i doubt its credibility.


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## sancho

LCA said:


> *First buy MRCA then think about MCA*
> 
> i think u not properly understand sanch's post.
> he only tried to said that if MCA got delayed then more no. of MMRCA can be inducted into the IAF.And for this he comparing MCA with Rafale.


Actually what I meant was, that we could get the first Rafale around 2013 and MCA possibly only 10 years later. That means both would serve at least 15 years alongside eachother in IAF, but pretty much for the same roles. Note sure if the huge amount of money that we have to spend for both would be worth and necassary. That's why I think it could be a reason against Rafale and maybe F18 SH to win MRCA.


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## MZUBAIR

sancho said:


> From point 3.3 Lockheed Martin F-16IN in that link:
> 
> So now a upg F16 E/F block 60 is offered for MMRCA
> 
> The problem is the high Euro compared to the low Dollar, that makes it so hard to export Rafale, EF and even Gripen. Sure $80, or $83 mil (systemprice with support, training, spares) comes close to F35 costs, but it is not on offer for IAF, EF is still more expensive and even Gripen NG is offered for Dutch AF with a systemprice of $75 mil.
> 
> http://www.jsfnieuws.nl/wp-content/Saab_OfferGripenNG_170409.pdf
> 
> Btw, can you confirm these facts of the F16 block 52 that PAF want to buy? $3 bil for 36 makes also a systemprice of $83 mil, for sure because of the low numbers, but still pretty expensive.
> 
> Pakistan F-16 - Defesa@Net
> 
> But back to MMRCA, the point to me is what IAF really gets for their money. Rafale is costly but offers full ToT, source codes, no restrictions..., many things that the much cheaper US fighters can't offer. The most expensive EF offers a full partnership, something that US never would offer and even if you are a small partner (like GB at F35) you have to take what they give you. That's why I would prefer a european winner, even if we pay more we get more in return. Mig 35 could be the cheapest, but offer pretty much the same stuff we already have. So a high unit cost alone can't be the reason against one of these aircrafts.



I dont want to convience u
Best of luck!!!..............Lets see which will u get n in which form....but mar my words that India will go for Mig 35


----------



## maverick2009

MZUBAIR.

The next Russian Fighter to enter IAF will be the indo russian PAK FA 5th generation fighter around 2020 entry service..

THE MMRCA contest is already a done deal behind closed doors. Thats why RAFALE new they have lost aleady.

The day india signed the nuclear deal the F18SH won the contract thats already decided by India & usa govts. 

MIG35 is the wom competitor all pakistanis hope IAF signs. THEY are having nitem,ares about IAF equipped with F18 super hornets with AESA radar and Amraam d5 BVRs. 

I dont blame them either. 

its bad enuf with 230 su30mki add 126 Super Hornets " its a nitemare" scenario for any adversary


----------



## LCA

Apart from there is another contract of buying about 450 AESA radar.. 

Here are some details from force mag..



> A fierce competition is now underway for supplying up to 450 active phased-array radars (AESA) for the Indian Air Force&#8217;s (IAF) future combat aircraft acquisitions, with the principal contenders hailing from the US (Northrop Grumman and Raytheon), Europe (EADS Defence Electronics, THALES and SELEX Galileo), Scandinavia (Ericsson Microwave), Israel (Israel Aerospace Industries), and Russia (Phazotron JSC and Tikhomirov NIIP).
> 
> Unlike a conventional mechanically steered-array (MSA) radar, the antenna array of T/R modules is fixed, with no moving parts. The radar can steer its agile beams electronically &#8212; at nearly the speed of light &#8212; and redirect them instantaneously from one target to another. In MSA radars, a circular or elliptical antenna plate in the nose of the aircraft is moved rapidly using a gimbal system with three or four drive motors to scan an area of airspace or on the ground, a single flashlight-like beam at a time. AESA radars on the other hand can track significantly more targets and can operate in multiple modes simultaneously, such as air-to-air search (in low-, medium-, and high-PRFs) and digital ground mapping. The AESA also automatically establishes tracking files for each detected target (more than 24), thereby reducing pilot workload. With interleaved air-to-air and air-to-surface cockpit displays, the aircrew will thus be able to maintain situational awareness while executing air-to-surface missions. AESA radars also offer better air-to-ground resolution (three times higher) than MSA radars, particularly using their synthetic aperture radar (SAR) mode.
> 
> The RBE-2 along with the OSF infra-red search-and-track system is being proposed for installation on board 90 of the IAF&#8217;s 230 Su-30MKIs on order.
> 
> 
> The Caesar&#8217;s tracking range is well beyond 200km against combat aircraft-sized targets, with a range of more than 300km against large targets like transports or aerial refueling tankers. The Caesar&#8217;s antenna, using a liquid cooling system, comprises 1,500 Gallium-Arsenide T/R modules.
> 
> ISRAEL:The X-band EL/M-2052&#8217;s array comprises &#8216;bricks&#8217; of 24 T/R modules, making it easy to assemble the AESA in different configurations to match the size and shape of an existing fighter nose, up to 1,290 modules. Smaller, lower-module-count versions can be air-cooled, reducing weight and making integration simpler.
> 
> Tikhomirov NIIP, on the other hand, is busy developing its X-band AESA radar for fitment on to both the Su-35BM and the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft that will be co-developed by Russia&#8217;s United Aircraft Corp and India&#8217;s state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL). Thus far, three prototype AESAs have been built and are now undergoing laboratory tests, with the first functional unit due to enter the flight-test phase in 2010, and the series-produced radars entering service by 2015. The AESA&#8217;s front-end antenna array will also be offered for integration with the existing NO-11M &#8216;Bars&#8217; PESA radars by 2014. Yet another AESA variant being designed by Tikhomirov NIIP is called the &#8216;smart skin&#8217; in which the T/R modules can be located anywhere on board the aircraft to generate the relevant radiation fields required for almost 360-degree airspace surveillance coverage.



Also lot of information given about CAESAR(CAPTOR-E),RBE-2,Zhuk-AE,SAAB Aesa and also why aesa radar is so much potent ?

It's a worth to read .

first link is from force mag.

sorry not the complete one.

FORCE - A Complete News Magazine on National Security - Defence Magazine

and second is from a forum, full aricle,post no.197 and 198

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?p=1402082

It may signify that IAF can have more than one AESA technologies


----------



## Screaming Skull

Boeing upbeat on prospects for F/A-18 fighter sales | Industries | Industrials, Materials & Utilities | Reuters


----------



## MZUBAIR

maverick2009 said:


> MZUBAIR.
> 
> The next Russian Fighter to enter IAF will be the indo russian PAK FA 5th generation fighter around 2020 entry service..
> 
> THE MMRCA contest is already a done deal behind closed doors. Thats why RAFALE new they have lost aleady.
> 
> The day india signed the nuclear deal the F18SH won the contract thats already decided by India & usa govts.
> 
> MIG35 is the wom competitor all pakistanis hope IAF signs. THEY are having nitem,ares about IAF equipped with F18 super hornets with AESA radar and Amraam d5 BVRs.
> 
> I dont blame them either.
> 
> its bad enuf with 230 su30mki add 126 Super Hornets " its a nitemare" scenario for any adversary



Dude, Its good if they go for F18SH, atleast they might be able to learn American technology.

But I m still sure that Mig 35 will be their choice as they are familiar with Russian technology. Behind doors stories are roumours. 

Only Time will tell, wait for couple of months and things will be clear.
As for as your this statement " *MIG35 is the wom competitor all pakistanis hope IAF signs*". Pakistan is not thinking like that. We are only thinking wt will they chose so we can make a counter induction.
At the moment (till 2010) 100+ JF-17, 60+ F-16, 36 J-10B are enough to counter 200 + Su 30 Mki.

At the moment we are developing 50 JF-17 with block A, 
_Block A can compete with Su-30.
*Radar Used*
KLJ-10: 
There is not much known about this Chinese Radar, *it is a variant of radar used on J-10*. It has met PAF's requirements and therefore has been chosen for initial batch. One can get some idea of its capability by looking at other Radars, whose Manufacturers were/are competing for JF-17/FC-1 Radar Contract.
*Engine*
RD-93 Turbofan 
It is a *variant *of Klimov RD-33 Turbofan Engine used in MIG-29 Fulcrum. 
_
Still there is more then any one can imagine in a light jet.

Next year next 50 JF-17 Block B will be real challangers for Su30Mki.
_
*Radar*
Griffo S7:
Range is about 100KM, Simultaneous engagement of atleast 2 targets. Like Su 30 Mki N011M Bars (Panther) radar which can track 15 air targets and engage the 4 most dangerous simultaneously
*New engine* 
most likely the Chinese WS-13 TianShan, although the PAF is considering fitting European powerplants such as the French Snecma M88 used in Dassault Rafale fighter aircraft.
_

*There are more then that, search for wekipedia and official JF-17 website.*
Official JF-17 website

Remember PAF knows IAF capabilities and always induct counter fleet.


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## tutu

it will take another 1n1/2 years for IAF to decide on MMRCA.........

and it will be TYPOON for sure..............

by that time as IAF decide on typoon.........US will came up and say F-35 for you....


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## sancho

MZUBAIR said:


> At the moment (till 2010) 100+ JF-17, 60+ F-16, 36 J-10B are enough to counter 200 + Su 30 Mki.


There is an article on the PAK aviation forum that says PAF has at the moment 8 JF 17, so way there can't be 100 by 2010, also we might have around 100 - 120 Mki till 2010.


MZUBAIR said:


> At the moment we are developing 50 JF-17 with block A,
> _Block A can compete with Su-30._


_
There is also JF 17 vs Mki thread in the Pak aviation forum that shows quiet well that the Mki is superior in nearly every way. Better discuss it there and not on this thread._


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## MZUBAIR

sancho said:


> There is an article on the PAK aviation forum that says PAF has at the moment 8 JF 17, so way there can't be 100 by 2010, also we might have around 100 - 120 Mki till 2010.



PAF have 8 + at the moment, that I can asure you. Web sites and threads giving reference of Oct 2008. All the information is not available on Internet.

Pakistan is working on a plan and according to the plan heavy serial production have been in operation since Feb 09 and by Oct 09 we will prepare 1st Peshawar Sqd with Thunder bird. 
Pakistan will produce atleast 50 birds this year which will take up to total 50+.
Next year target with Block B would be achieved easily when they have strong hand this year.



> There is also JF 17 vs Mki thread in the Pak aviation forum that shows quiet well that the Mki is superior in nearly every way. Better discuss it there and not on this thread.



Yes there is a thread of JF 17 vs Mki, but Indian friends dont want to hear that *JF-17 can compete Mki*. Remember my Indian friend never under estimated ur enemy. Pakistan always look to counter India.So atleast understand this thing that we are working only to counter india. If u think that Jf-17 is not of that worth then y paksitan is wasting their money and time on the project. So think wts in reality, dont go only web links....and remember every thing is not available on Internet...its just a partial info or may be not a single info.

*We will never let u go up.*


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## MZUBAIR

tutu said:


> it will take another 1n1/2 years for IAF to decide on MMRCA.........
> 
> and it will be TYPOON for sure..............
> 
> by that time as IAF decide on typoon.........US will came up and say F-35 for you....



First time, I heard abt MRCA in 2004, still its not finalised as its in the process. India will soon finalise the MRCA jet then they will negotiate with the country and it will take 6 to 10 months for signed confirm deal.

Dont forget If India go for USA brids then there will be a pass bill from congress that surely review the deal.

Now I heard that India is also looking for MMRCA and I believe that It will take India 4 to 5 years to descide the jet. Its not a child game to descide billion $s deal in few months or one year so dont say immature words that India will sign withn 1 nad half year. At the moment India might be only thinking abt MRCA.


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## MZUBAIR

tutu. said:


> Israel want to participate in MMRCA with their F-16I " sufa" ...the varient that US sold to Israel.......but US supposed to put an objection on it..........might be IAF will now buy it directly from US and later Israeli avionice and other compoents will be integrated on it.....



Getting birds from Israel would be batter for India then from USA. USA traps as they do with others.


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## LCA

MZUBAIR said:


> *We will never let u go up.*



Sorry to say bro...

but u sound like a crab in a tin who niether want to go outside of the tin nor want other to go outside of tin.

why don't u say that we will increase our line and make larger than your line....(from a old story)

don't take this as a offense.


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## MZUBAIR

LCA said:


> Sorry to say bro...
> 
> but u sound like a crab in a tin who niether want to go outside of the tin nor want other to go outside of tin.
> 
> why don't u say that we will increase our line and make larger than your line....(from a old story)
> 
> don't take this as a offense.



No, I m not taking it in offence. I dont like or listen myths, stories, philosophy as ur trying to be with ur tin and crab. 

I like reality.

*I said above that no body is sleeping.* We know how to defend our country and what is important for us thats why dont underestimate JF-17 it can compete Su-30 MKI and *others even with those in MRCA list*.

Any how we are not in tin nither we are stopping any one. If any one failed in any project then dont blame on other countries. 

As far the topic is Indian MRCA deal and in my opinion Inida will go for Mig-35 coz India is familiar with Russian technology.
Raffel is out of the proposal as found from different resources.
Its not easy for India to get hold on American technology.
So, I think India will go for Mig-35.
Time will tell this.

But any how this is now a political issue for India to buy any jet lets wait and see.


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## Jako

Mzubair,the only reason why pak opted jf17 is lack of funds........otherwise dassault rafale would have been an perfect counter for the mki......and you thought pak chose the perfect machine.......lolz


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## old monk

^^^ true.. not even china is using jf-17 as their main fighter but su-mkks and other russian fighters.


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## LCA

MZUBAIR said:


> No, I m not taking it in offence. I dont like or listen myths, stories, philosophy as ur trying to be with ur tin and crab.
> 
> I like reality.
> 
> *I said above that no body is sleeping.* We know how to defend our country and what is important for us thats why dont underestimate JF-17 it can compete Su-30 MKI and *others even with those in MRCA list*.
> 
> Any how we are not in tin nither we are stopping any one. If any one failed in any project then dont blame on other countries.
> 
> As far the topic is Indian MRCA deal and in my opinion India will go for Mig-35 coz India is familiar with Russian technology.
> Raffel is out of the proposal as found from different resources.
> Its not easy for India to get hold on American technology.
> So, I think India will go for Mig-35.
> Time will tell this.
> 
> But any how this is now a political issue for India to buy any jet lets wait and see.



Rafale is not out of the race ,reconfirm ur sources.

As far as politics is concern now india political parties busy with their own politics in general elaction 

P.S.: we are not underestimating JF but sorry to say it have no chance against MKI.


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## LCA

old monk said:


> ^^^ true.. not even china is using jf-17 as their main fighter but su-mkks and other russian fighters.



Exactly ... chinese are going for J-10 series of fighter.

i don't why PAF going for JF in such a huge number....,they should invest more their resources in their J-10 venture with china.


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## Jako

LCA said:


> Exactly ... chinese are going for J-10 series of fighter.
> 
> i don't why PAF going for JF in such a huge number....,they should invest more their resources in their J-10 venture with china.



you say this,and the next thing you would hear is ,we have a blk 2 coming with some alien technology........agree with you lca,they should have saved their money to induct huge nmbrs of j10 not jf17....thnx


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## sob

FC 1 does not fit in the plans for the Chinese PLAAF, so they are not going to induct it any time soon despite the pressure to place order, so as to keep the unit cost low.

Plus we have had discussions about JF 17 being fitted with European engine, well the only thing I can say that it is going to be a long process.
Changing the engine will not be an easy job for various reasons, size, shifting of CG, modifications required for a smaller lot size and also the European manufacturer would not want the Chinese to get info about the engine.


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## MZUBAIR

Jako said:


> you say this,and the next thing you would hear is ,we have a blk 2 coming with some alien technology........agree with you lca,they should have saved their money to induct huge nmbrs of j10 not jf17....thnx



Jako and LCA,

Thats what I want to tell you people,
*Y PAF is wasting their money on JF-17?*
Coz they know about the JF-17 more then all of us over these forums. 

JF-17 is differnt sort of fighter then Su-30 but it never means that it cant compete or counter Su-30.

Next year you will find more dangerous JF-17 of Block "B". Which will surely be challange for SU-30. I have already provided refences above. 

China will also buy JF-17 Block "B" in 2010/11 but they will not buy too much as J-10 will be their front bird.

J-10 "B" engine will be used in JF-17 Block "B".
There would be many similar technologies in both jets.
But J-10 is superior, but it never means that J-10 will only be able to compete Mki. Dont forget JF-17 is made counter indian jets as the alternative of F-16


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## sancho

MZUBAIR said:


> Pakistan is working on a plan and according to the plan heavy serial production have been in operation since Feb 09 and by Oct 09 we will prepare 1st Peshawar Sqd with Thunder bird.
> Pakistan will produce atleast 50 birds this year which will take up to total 50+.


Doubtful, but wait and see.


MZUBAIR said:


> Yes there is a thread of JF 17 vs Mki, but Indian friends dont want to hear that JF-17 can compete Mki. Remember my Indian friend never under estimated ur enemy. *Pakistan always look to counter India.So atleast understand this thing that we are working only to counter india.* If u think that Jf-17 is not of that worth then y paksitan is wasting their money and time on the project. So think wts in reality, dont go only web links....and remember every thing is not available on Internet...its just a partial info or may be not a single info.
> 
> *We will never let u go up.*


I never said that it is not worth it, or that I underestimate it. In fact I believe that it is better then our LCA at the moment, but to compete anything above is just a dream! 
You have to admit that cause, if JF 17 could compete Mki why would PAF need J10 and F16 block 52 then? These fighters are better than JF 17 and would be a far better match.
Like I said before, the only fact where Mki is inferior to JF 17 is RCS. Everywhere else (BVR combats longer range radar and missile, WVR combats better t/w ratio, more maneuverability, more fuel so more range, more weapons, higher payload...) the Mki is way way superior. JF 17 might be a good match to counter anything we have below the Mki at the moment, but that's why IAF is modernising (upg Mig 29, maybe upg Mirage 2k, LCA, MMRCA).
To be honest with you and without offending! I think the fact that you only look at us and try to counter everything we have, is the main problem for Pakistan. Imo it would be far better for your country to look at all the terrorists and especially to improve your economy, than try to compete us, because in the present situation you simply can't.


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## Jako

But for a new engine in the blk B dont you need to modify the airframe.......for which next year induction seems farfetched.......THE COMBAT CAPABILITY OF THE PRESENT JF17 IS UNDERSTABLE WITH ALREADY TALKS OF BLK 2 ,WITH NOT EVEN A WHOLE SQUADRON IN OPERATION........


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## Screaming Skull

*Interesting news! This will definitely have a bearing on the outcome of the MMRCA contest and also LCA powerplant selection! *



*Boeing's Super Hornet seeks export sale to launch 20% thrust upgrade​*
12/05/09

*Boeing is seeking an international launch customer for a 20% higher thrust version of the General Electric F414 turbofan that powers the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet.*

*The F414 enhanced performance engine (EPE) includes an all new core and forward fan to dramatically increase the fighter's takeoff performance*, said Bob Gower, Boeing vice president for F/A-18E/F.

*The improvements would increase the F414 thrust rating from 22,000lbs to 26,600lbs.* The baseline F414-GE-400, which also powers the Saab Gripen demonstration aircraft, is itself a 35% higher thrust version of the F404 and entered service with the Super Hornet fleet in 1998.

More recently, the US Navy, Boeing and GE have been developing durability improvements to reduce foreign object damage and specific fuel consumption, Gower told reporters participating in a Boeing media tour.

While the USN seeks a new engine core to make the F414 more durable, *some international customers are interested in a new engine fan that enables higher thrust*, Gower said.

"The 'enhanced durability engine' becomes the 'enhanced performance engine' when you put the fan on it," Gower said.

Although the core enhancements are already under contract with the USN, the programme is seeking an export customer to launch development of the F414 EPE, Gower said.

*The international order would lead to follow-on sales for the USN, which would gradually replace its current inventory with the improved version*, Gower said.

Several countries, including India, Brazil, Denmark, Greece and Kuwait, are considering the F/A-18E/F, with the Royal Australian Air Force already signed on as the first export customer. The RAAF has ordered 24 F/A-18E/Fs, including 12 provisioned to become EA-18G Growlers.

*The improved thrust would likely be most welcomed among militaries operating in hot weather, which reduces engine performance especially at a takeoff.*

*Despite the dramatic thrust increase, the EPE would not require enlarging the F/A-18E/F's engine inlets to enable increased air flow*, Gower said.

*"We are not modifying the mould line of the aircraft," Gower said. "The current inlet gives us enough [air] in-take."*

Gower also said the EPE would require changing the number of compressor stages, but he did not elaborate.

The USN is also planning to steadily improve the F/A-18E/Fs sensors, electronic warfare system, connectivity and weapons load-out over the next decade, Gower said.

"The US government and Boeing and our suppliers," said Gower, "continue to invest in the platform because we see opportunities both domestically and internationally for the platform."

Boeing's Super Hornet seeks export sale to launch 20% thrust upgrade


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## Screaming Skull

*Optimism Reigns Over Rafale's Export Prospects​*
5/13/2009

We are very optimistic for exporting the Rafale, said Gérard Christmann, general manager business line of Thales' aerospace division. He reckoned that the Rafale is now a mature aircraft (which you'll be able to read about in the June issue of DTI) and that there was now a big gap in the performance of the Mirage 2000 and the Rafale whose open architecture will permit a lot of improvements in the future.

Christmann reminded the 20 or so aerospace reporters attending a two-day Thales pre-Paris airshow briefing, that we must keep in mind that Rafale is a new aircraft. It was first delivered to the French airforce in 2006 and if you look at the export history of the Mirage 2000 you will see that the export contracts were won 15 years or so after it was first delivered to the French airforce.





*He said the Rafale was in good position in the official fighter competitions in Switzerland, Brazil and India ... yes, that's right India.* *Reports last month that the French fighter had been kicked out of the competition turned out to be evil untruths put about by, who knows who, with Thales officials (not Christmann) saying mysteriously that the so-called news had been leaked during the Brazilian airshow and that this was significant. The reporters are still trying to figure out why.*

Ares Homepage


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## Screaming Skull

*Rafale Still Chasing Indian Fighter Deal​*
May 13, 2009

By Robert Wall
Paris

The Rafale strike fighter industrial team says it remains in the Indian fighter competition even though an Indian defense official has said it was kicked out.

*We are still preparing, actively, technology demonstrations for later this year and early next year, says Jean-Noel Stock, who leads Rafale efforts at Thales, which is responsible for around a third of the weapons system. He stresses that Rafale is still in competition for the 126 fighter deal.*

​
Meanwhile, Thales, Rafale prime contractor Dassault and engine supplier Snecma are preparing to submit a best-and-final offer to Brazil for its 36 fighters program. An updated initial offer was made a few weeks ago, Stock says. The offer, which has to spell out offset plans, is due June 8, according to the executive.

In February, the Rafale team hosted 55 Brazilian companies to help find industrial partners to meet technology transfer demands. Stock says the French government has okayed Thales sharing source code with partners.

Brazil, India and Switzerland - where Rafale also is competing - would receive the Thales active electronically scanned array radar. A demonstration version recently concluded flight trials. *The first production-representative AESA is due for delivery to Dassault in mid-2010, before the aircraft would go to the French air force in 2011.*

Two of the prototypes are being built, says Jean-Marc Goujon, who oversees Thales product policy for surveillance and combat systems.

By years end, the company expects the first full-production contract for the AESA in France as part of that governments purchase of the next batch of fighters. Around 60 fighters are being bought. The radar would also be retrofitted on current aircraft.

Rafale Still Chasing Indian Fighter Deal | AVIATION WEEK


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## Screaming Skull

*French bid to re-enter race for combat aircraft​*
Friday, May 15, 2009

NEW DELHI: *Making a strong bid to push its fighter plane, Rafale, back in contention for the 126 Medium Multi-role Combat Aircraft India seeks to acquire, a high-level delegation from France will meet officials in the Defence Ministry on Friday.*

*Led by Jacques Lajugi, Head of Frances Air International Development, the delegation will call on Defence Secretary Vijay Singh to explore the possibility of re-entering the race* of five other manufacturers from the United States, Sweden, Russia and Europe, sources in the Ministry said.

Among the six manufacturers that had responded to Indias Request for Proposal, sources said that Rafale had been eliminated from the race as it failed in the technical evaluations.

*However, it is now understood that the report of the committee is yet to be perused by the Defence Procurement Board.*
 
The committee report making such a recommendation was based on the response of the French company Dassault, which makes Rafale. *The sources said the questions largely related to equipment and other add-ons that the user wanted to have, but not provided by the manufacturer.*

*The sources said that since the recommendation of the evaluation committee was made, the French manufacturer has provided necessary information that the Indian Air Force had sought.* 

The Hindu : National : French bid to re-enter race for combat aircraft


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## Screaming Skull

^^India adopting coercive diplomacy tactics again? Expect Mirage-2k upgrades in return for any favors from India.


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## sancho

Screaming Skull said:


> ^^India adopting coercive diplomacy tactics again? Expect Mirage-2k upgrades in return for any favors from India.


Not sure if they really want the upgrade, cause it would be only for 40 - 50 jets. Would be much better and easier to replace them with MMRCA winner too, more same types, more commonality.


----------



## godsavetheworld

*Dassault back in contention for IAF's $11bn MMRCA tender *


New Delhi: *French aerospace and defence major Dassault is back in contention for the Indian Air Force's 126 medium range multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) tender with its fighter offering, the Rafale. Reports suggest that a high-level delegation from France will meet officials in the defence ministry on Friday to offer technical clarifications sought for by the IAF with respect to the tender*. 

Earlier, reports had suggested that the Rafale had been booted out of the race for the massive $11 billion tender as it failed to provide necessary technical information as required by the Request for Proposal (RFP).

*The French delegation, to be led by Jacques Lajugi, head of France's Air International Development, will call on defence secretary Vijay Singh.*

Currently defence contractors from the United States, Russia, Sweden and a pan-European Eurofighter consortium have submitted bids for the IAF contract. The companies involved are the Russian MiG RAC, American Boeing and Lockheed Martin corporations, the Swedish Saab and the EADS-led Eurofighter consortium. Rafale was Dassaults' contender in the race.

Reports emanating a month or so back suggested that the technical evaluation committee had ousted Dassault as it apparently failed to provide necessary information as required under the provisions of the RFP. This was denied by the company. 

_*Indian authorities may also have been peeved by the lackadaisical attitude displayed by the French. Unlike other manufacturers it is the only one that has failed to bring down its aircraft to India for display or first-hand introduction to IAF fliers even once.*_

At the two AeroIndia Yelahanka shows, hosted in 2007 and 2009, all contending aircraft, such as the MiG-35, Boeing F-18 Super Hornet, Lockheed Martin F-16, Saab Gripen JAS-39 and the Eurofighter Typhoon made an appearance and allowed IAF fliers to familiarise themselves with their offerings. The only missing contender was Dassault and its Rafale.

''We are still preparing, actively, technology demonstrations for later this year and early next year,'' said Jean-Noel Stock, Thales's head of the Rafale programme. Thales is responsible for around a third of the weapons system onboard the Rafale.

However, reports now suggest that Dassault may have been provided the escape route it seeks as the report of the committee recommending its disqualification is yet to be perused by the Defence Procurement Board.

The committee report apparently points out that questions related to equipment and other add-ons that the IAF wants remained unanswered by the manufacturer. This discrepancy, apparently, has now been taken care of by the manufacturer.

domain-b.com : Dassault back in contention for IAF's $11bn MMRCA tender

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Machoman

Dude when you guys going to buy these damn planes? I been hearing these for so many years,

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## BaburCM

^^ It's a bad joke...


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## Gabbar

*There is MRCA thread already, please try to keep all the news related this matter in that perticular thread!!!*


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## Luftwaffe

irreversible once done is done Rafale is out of MRCA..


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## gubbi

luftwaffe said:


> irreversible once done is done Rafale is out of MRCA..



Ah! so you would wish! Old news btw, and yes it belongs to the MMRCA thread.


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## gubbi

Machoman said:


> Dude when you guys going to buy these damn planes? I been hearing these for so many years,



It takes time to thoroughly evaluate all these contenders to pick one! That would include ToT so it makes sense not to rush in. 
Not unlike some where one develops and the other just buys without evaluating anything thoroughly. A couple of flights make not a thorough evaluation.


----------



## Neo

*Threads merged. *


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## maverick2009

Manmohan Singh sweeping victory over BJP & commies means another 5 years of continuing Singh policy of. 

Economic reforms promoting FDI
Cosying up to USA
LESS support al things Russian. 

With this mind i fully expect MIG35 to be the next plane dropped from the MRCA after the RAFALE. 

The only hope the Russians had was a big commie collation Gov,t in the election. 

Thats now finished and the feeling is that F18SH & Typhoon will win the order in October 2009. 

Last 3 military orders are 

8 X P8 posidoen Maritime Planes from USA $2BILLION
6 x C130J transport planes from USA $1 BILLION
jOINT DEVELOPMENT of Israeli MRSAM $2.5 billion 

DEALS ALL signed last year in Singhs PM stewardship. 

Any Thoughts


----------



## sancho

maverick2009 said:


> Manmohan Singh sweeping victory over BJP & commies means another 5 years of continuing Singh policy of.
> 
> Economic reforms promoting FDI
> Cosying up to USA
> *LESS support al things Russian*.
> 
> With this mind i fully expect MIG35 to be the next plane dropped from the MRCA after the RAFALE.
> 
> The only hope the Russians had was a big commie collation Gov,t in the election.
> 
> Thats now finished and the feeling is that F18SH & Typhoon will win the order in October 2009.
> 
> Last 3 military orders are
> 
> 8 X P8 posidoen Maritime Planes from USA $2BILLION
> 6 x C130J transport planes from USA $1 BILLION
> jOINT DEVELOPMENT of Israeli MRSAM $2.5 billion
> 
> DEALS ALL signed last year in Singhs PM stewardship.
> 
> Any Thoughts


Who told you that his policy is less supporting Russian things?

What about Gorshkov carrier, MTA, Brahmos, FGFA, Phalcon AWACS with Russian IL 76 aircraft, Akula nuclear subs, new Mi 17 helicopter and so on!
He opens the market and gives us far more options than ONLY Russian things, but he is not stupid to leave out our best and reliable friend.
If Mig 35 will be out, it's not because of political reasons, but because it offers more disadvantages (not much better capabilities that Mki, total reliability on Russia, Mig 35 is only a prototype and not proven yet, no other country will buy it, not even Russia) than advantages (AESA radar, cheap unit and maintenance costs).
Btw Rafale is still in the competition cause there is still no official report that it's out, only rumors. Also C130J is offered but the contract is not signed yet, only P8I. Just like F18SH and F16IN we have to wait and see how many strings are attached.


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## heartwinlion

India's new government to speed fighter jet deal | Industries | Industrials, Materials & Utilities | Reuters

NEW DELHI, May 22 (Reuters) - India will soon hold field trials for the purchase of 126 fighter planes in a $10.4 billion contract that is one of the world's biggest current arms deals.

Boeing's (BA.N) F/A-18 Super Hornet, Lockheed Martin Corp's (LMT.N) F-16, Russia's MiG-35, Sweden's Saab (SAABb.ST) KAS-39 Gripen and the Eurofighter Typhoon, a consortium of British, German, Italian and Spanish companies, are in the race for the lucrative contract.

France's Dassault Aviation was knocked out last month on technical grounds, but could be back after answering queries related to its aircraft, a defence official said.

"All the paperwork is over and a technical evaluation report on the fighters has been placed with the ministry," defence ministry spokesman Sitanshu Kar said.

"Security concerns are a top priority of the government and things should start rolling once the new defence minister takes charge," he added.

STRONGER MANDATE

Prime Minister Manmohan Singh was due to be sworn in for a second term on Friday and name the new defence minister in his cabinet.

With a stronger mandate, Singh is expected to push through key decisions including greater military cooperation with the United States which had been stymied because of opposition from his former communist allies.

"Much of the Congress-led government's last term was spent on the civilian nuclear deal with the U.S. while its communist allies objected to strategic defence ties," said Uday Bhaskar, a New Delhi-based strategic analyst.

India increased its defence spending by nearly a quarter in 2009/10 to $28.9 billion as the government was keen to focus on security following last November's Mumbai attacks.

It is looking to spend more than $30 billion over the next five years to modernise its largely Soviet-era weapons systems.

With elections over, the defence ministry will push for clearing pending projects, including the induction of the Phalcon Airborne Warning and Control Systems (AWACS) aircraft from Israel to track incoming missiles or enemy aircraft.

A defence team from India will visit Russia next month to speed up delivery of the aircraft carrier Gorshkov for induction into the Indian Navy by 2012. (Editing by Sanjeev Miglani)


----------



## sancho

The Hindu : National : Rafale allowed to take part in aircraft bid



> After the news emerged in April, the French launched a fresh bid. Many of the issues that remained unresolved were since then addressed, the sources said. Now that the parameters set out in the technical evaluations had been complied with, it was felt that Rafale should be allowed to take part in the bid, along with Boeing&#8217;s F/A18, Lockheed Martin&#8217;s F-16, Saab&#8217;s Gripen, MIG-35 and Eurofighter Typhoon.


----------



## fatman17

ASIA PACIFIC 
Date Posted: 21-May-2009 

Jane's Defence Weekly 

*Rafale set for return to MRCA contention*

Jon Grevatt Jane's Asia-Pacific Industry Reporter-Bangkok

*Key Points
The Indian MoD indicates that Rafale is still in contention for the MRCA bid

The Rafale team is continuing talks with the ministry*


Dassault Aviation's Rafale is likely to be allowed to return as a contender to meet the Indian Air Force's (IAF's) multirole combat aircraft (MRCA) requirement, the Indian Ministry of Defence (MoD) said on 21 May. 

MoD spokesman Sitanshu Kar told Jane's that it was possible the aircraft could bid for the USD10 billion contest but stressed that the final decision would be made by the incoming defence minister. 

Referring to media reports that the MoD's Defence Procurement Board recommended on 19 May that the Rafale stay in the MRCA competition, Kar said: "There is no decision yet. We have to appoint a new defence minister [following a general election earlier this month] and only then can we react to this." 

The Rafale was reportedly declared out of the contest in mid-April by the MoD, which said at the time that the aircraft did not meet its technical requirements. IAF and MoD sources also suggested that Dassault did not provide adequate information about the aircraft's equipment. That information is now understood to have been handed over to the MoD, although Kar did not confirm this. 

A spokesman from the French embassy in New Delhi confirmed that officials from the French defence ministry had met "several times" with the Indian MoD about the Rafale and still considered the aircraft to be competing in the MRCA contest. 

The comments came after Jane's reported on 19 May that executives associated with Rafale considered the platform to be "still in competition in India". 

Jean-Noel Stock, Rafale Programme Director within the Electronic Combat Solutions section of Thales' Aerospace Division, argued that the negative news regarding the aircraft's chances in India had emerged to coincide with the Latin American Aerospace and Defence (LAAD) 2009 exhibition, held in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, between 14-17 April. "You can draw your own conclusion from that," Stock said. 

Rafale is also bidding to meet Brazil's 26 aircraft requirement. Stock said a revised bid was submitted on 4 May.

If it is allowed back in the Indian contest, Dassault will join five other contenders in MRCA trials to be held over the next few months. 

The others are Boeing's F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Eurofighter's Typhoon, Lockheed Martin's F-16IN, Russian Aircraft Corporation's MiG-35 and Saab's JAS 39 Gripen Next Generation. 

The IAF hopes to induct the first batch of 18 imported MRCAs by 2013-15, while the remaining 108 fighters will be built under licence in India and inducted into service by 2021-22.


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## Owais

fatman17 said:


> ASIA PACIFIC
> Date Posted: 21-May-2009
> 
> Jane's Defence Weekly
> 
> *Rafale set for return to MRCA contention*
> 
> Jon Grevatt Jane's Asia-Pacific Industry Reporter-Bangkok
> 
> *Key Points
> The Indian MoD indicates that Rafale is still in contention for the MRCA bid
> 
> The Rafale team is continuing talks with the ministry*
> 
> 
> Dassault Aviation's Rafale is likely to be allowed to return as a contender to meet the Indian Air Force's (IAF's) multirole combat aircraft (MRCA) requirement, the Indian Ministry of Defence (MoD) said on 21 May.



lolz the french reaction in form of civil nuclear offer and defense cooperation with Pakistan make this happened


----------



## SQ8

Havent I been saying it??
This was all a ploy by the French to prod the Rafale's re-entry into MRCA.
Now see whether that nuclear deal with Pakistan or the like is mentioned again.


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## sob

Dassaultmay be back in race for Indian defence order


> Dassault Aviation has been cleared to put up its Rafale fighter jet for field trials, a defence ministry official said, adding that the approval came last week from the governments policymaking Defence Procurement Board.
> 
> *The French company, one of six contenders for the mammoth contract, was declared out of the race on 16 April after the military said it failed to meet technical requirements.
> 
> Dassault was dropped as it did not meet user requirements but the decision to reinduct it into the bidding was taken after the company offered the missing answers, the official said, speaking on condition of anonymity. However, since a new government is now in place the final call is with the defence minister.*
> 
> A formal decision on Dassaults participation was likely later this week, he added.



It seems that Dassault has been brought back to keep a pressure on the other contenders. This seems to be the only reason otherwise within 3-4 months what improvements have they done that the aricraft is now technically acceptable?



> The contract includes the outright purchase of 18 fighter jets by 2012 with another 108 to be built by HAL in India under a transfer of technology agreement. *India also wants the option to buy 64 more jets.*



This is a clear indication that the quantities will be increased and IMO the order may be spilled purely on Geopolitical calculations.


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## sancho

sob said:


> It seems that Dassault has been brought back to keep a pressure on the other contenders. This seems to be the only reason otherwise within 3-4 months what improvements have they done that the aricraft is now technically acceptable?


Imo Dassault was never really out, otherwise there would be an official statement about it. It was only a rumor given to the media to put pressure on Dassault. The Rafale is technically far more proven than EF, Gripen NG and Mig 35, it is reported that AESA radar, HMD, a new engine and even CFTs are ready if a customer is ready to pay for it, I doubt that there were really any technical problems. 


sob said:


> This is a clear indication that the quantities will be increased and IMO the order may be spilled purely on Geopolitical calculations.


There are reasons to increase the order, if LCA is more delayed, if IAF don't upg Mirage, or Jags and replace them with MRCA, or if some of them can be used for our new carriers for example.
If you are right and politics are the key, I have no doubt that F18SH will win!


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## Screaming Skull

*IAF completes technical evaluation of $11 billion MMRCA contract; Report with MoD; Expects clearance soon​*
27 May 2009

New Delhi: *The Indian Air Force said Wednesday it had completed the technical evaluation of six fighter jets* from various companies around the world for a medium range multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) contract estimated at more than $11 billion. The MMRCA contract is intended to replace the IAF's ageing fleet of Soviet-era fighter aircraft, including MiG-21's and MiG-27's.

*"The technical evaluation report is now with the ministry of defence and we are awaiting their clearance," air force chief Air Chief Marshal Fali Homi Major told a news conference.*

In contention are Lockheed Martin's F-16 Falcon, Boeing's F/A-18 Super Hornet, Russian Aircraft Corp.'s MiG-35, Saab AB's JAS-39 Gripen, Eurofighter Typhoon and Dassault Aviation SA's Rafale.

*"We expect the ministry of defence to clear it soon, so that flight evaluation (field tests) can begin in two or three months after their approval,"* ACM Major said.

*ACM Major also clarified that France's Dassault Aviation SA had been allowed to rejoin the bidding process.* He provided no clarifications on the reasons why it had been knocked out of the evaluation process and subsequently allowed to participate.

Last month reports emanating from New Delhi had suggested that Dassault had been knocked out of contention for the contract "during the technical evaluation phase due to non-compliance with some operational requirements."

domain-b.com : IAF completes technical evaluation of $11 billion MMRCA contract


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## luckyy

does the change in USA political senario from Bush to Obama makes any diffirence in the prospect of F-16/18 in MMRCA ?

with Bush in the office , it was almost certain that MMRCA if going F-18SH's way..


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## gubbi

luckyy said:


> does the change in USA political senario from Bush to Obama makes any diffirence in the prospect of F-16/18 in MMRCA ?
> 
> with Bush in the office , it was almost certain that MMRCA if going F-18SH's way..



It doesn't make any difference. No administration can afford to deprive their domestic companies from earning profits that too coming from foreign sources.

Btw, does anybody know what are the results or views of the technical evaluations of the MRCA contenders? Technically how did the proposals fare against each other wrt Indian requirements?


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## heartwinlion

Good news trail for mmrca begain from August 

IAF gets busy on mega-deal


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## pakpower

Which Company would likely to get this precious contract for 126 jets any idea.


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## Patriot

^Boeing!...


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## sancho

pakpower said:


> Which Company would likely to get this precious contract for 126 jets any idea.


My personal hitlist:

1. Rafale - expensive, but offers a lot of techs with freedom of customizing and less restrictions 
2. F18 SH - maybe politically and with restrictions, but reletively cheap, proven and with the best weapon package
Gripen NG - cheap in costs, but very dependend on US and not ready yet, delays are likely
4. EF - most expensive, unsure about funding of further upgrades, but clearly the best techs (best engine, maybe the best AESA) and the best a2a performance
5. F16 IN and Mig 35 - F16 IN is a very good aircraft but won't offer much advantages against F16 and J10 of our neighbours. Mig 35 the cheapest in all cost reasons, but not ready yet, don't offer much new techs, will be pretty similar to Mki and more important will make IAF completely dependend on Russia!

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## heartwinlion

1. Rafale - expensive, but offers a lot of techs with freedom of customizing and less restrictions --- * AESA is not ready no export order make it future of this plane is blind 2. *F18 SH - maybe politically and with restrictions, but reletively cheap, proven and with the best weapon package ---- * EMU & TOT problem *
Gripen NG - cheap in costs, but very dependend on US and not ready yet, delays are likely -- *again us involve in this and not ready yet*
4. EF - most expensive, unsure about funding of further upgrades, but clearly the best techs (best engine, maybe the best AESA) and the best a2a performance --- *I think best A/C for IAF*
5. F16 IN and Mig 35 - F16 IN is a very good aircraft but won't offer many advantages against F16 and J10 of our neighbors. Mig 35 the cheapest in all cost reasons, but not ready yet, don't offer much new techs, will be pretty similar to Mki and more important will make IAF completely dependent on Russia --- * For F-16 old and replacement start from 2015 when F-35 come & Mig-35 cheap but again depend on Russia is dangers for us and also no future for this A/c even Russia don&#8217;t buy this it is only help Russia & MIG cop. (don&#8217;t have any single order in his list) who fighting for his life *.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## sancho

heartwinlion said:


> AESA is not ready no export order make it future of this plane is blind


Latest reports says that AESA will be inducted into French fighters by next year and will be ready for exports by 2012, so early enough for us. Exports of course is a point, but it is in competitions in Brazil, Greece, Austria and it looks like UAE will buy them. So exports seems to be likly soon.


heartwinlion said:


> EMU & TOT problem


That's what I meant with restrictions


heartwinlion said:


> I think best A/C for IAF


Why do you think so? Personally I like the EF too, but I don't think it will suit IAF the best. It's clearly an air superiotity fighter with not much improved a2g capabilities and with Mki and FGFA in future we have/will have comparable aircrafts. I'm still not sure if the high techs it offers balance the high price it costs.


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## heartwinlion

sancho said:


> Why do you think so? Personally I like the EF too, but I don't think it will suit IAF the best. It's clearly an air superiotity fighter with not much improved a2g capabilities and with Mki and FGFA in future we have/will have comparable aircrafts. I'm still not sure if the high techs it offers balance the high price it costs.
> QUOTE]
> Tranche 3 come with AESA and resolve the a2g capabilities and this the best way to know the superior western technology coze today after F-22 it is the best air superiority fighter but when T-3 it is the best 4++ generation fighter and if u comparer with French fighter with EF I don&#8217;t think there is much difference in the price coze both are expansive. And also we can get the partner of EF for future it also help us in LCA (EADS helping us to reduce the weight) and MCA.


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## MZUBAIR

In 2004, first time I heard about this deal. now its 2009 when India is finalising this deal.
Wt ever they will finalise, they will not get it within 5 years.
Noew 2004 ->6 years passed->2009-> 5 more years in development program-> 2 years for trainings= *Total time will be 12 years to acquire 126 jets*

Dont u think the deal took so much time?


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## MZUBAIR

India will never get any of them b4 2017.

U can see India got its first SU30MKI in late 2000 (Correct me if I m wrong).
After 9 years they have 100-120 SU-30 (from different resources).

How long it will take to finliase this deal and the delivery of the birds.


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## MZUBAIR

heartwinlion said:


> 1. Rafale - expensive, but offers a lot of techs with freedom of customizing and less restrictions --- * AESA is not ready no export order make it future of this plane is blind 2. *F18 SH - maybe politically and with restrictions, but reletively cheap, proven and with the best weapon package ---- * EMU & TOT problem *
> Gripen NG - cheap in costs, but very dependend on US and not ready yet, delays are likely -- *again us involve in this and not ready yet*
> 4. EF - most expensive, unsure about funding of further upgrades, but clearly the best techs (best engine, maybe the best AESA) and the best a2a performance --- *I think best A/C for IAF*
> 5. F16 IN and Mig 35 - F16 IN is a very good aircraft but won't offer many advantages against F16 and J10 of our neighbors. Mig 35 the cheapest in all cost reasons, but not ready yet, don't offer much new techs, will be pretty similar to Mki and more important will make IAF completely dependent on Russia --- * For F-16 old and replacement start from 2015 when F-35 come & Mig-35 cheap but again depend on Russia is dangers for us and also no future for this A/c even Russia don&#8217;t buy this it is only help Russia & MIG cop. (don&#8217;t have any single order in his list) who fighting for his life *.



I 100&#37; agree with u..........I also said the same on this forum....but many Indians didnt like my words. May be they would like wt u said.

*F-16* is not suitable for India as Pakistan already have.
*F-18* is very good option but if USA agrees with TOT _(Which I doubt they wil never coz at the moment its considered the best Naval support jet in the world.)_

*EF* is best for India and I feel EF might win.

Mig is also good option, its cheap , IAF knows the phyche of jet and TOT wouldnt be an isssue. but India shouldnt go for Mig to ristrict themselves for only Russian technology. And there is another doubt that China might also share this jet in future as they did with SU30 which India will never like.

*Rafale.* I feel that India is not very much intrested in rafale coz different experts says that it might ask heavy upgradation cost.

* Gripen NG* its good jet but not ideal for India. May be it wins but it has lesser winning chances..


*My judgment says that India will go for EU or Mig.*


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## heartwinlion

MZUBAIR said:


> I 100% agree with u..........I also said the same on this forum....but many Indians didnt like my words. May be they would like wt u said.
> 
> *F-16* is not suitable for India as Pakistan already have.
> *F-18* is very good option but if USA agrees with TOT _(Which I doubt they wil never coz at the moment its considered the best Naval support jet in the world.)_
> 
> *EF* is best for India and I feel EF might win.
> 
> Mig is also good option, its cheap , IAF knows the phyche of jet and TOT wouldnt be an isssue. but India shouldnt go for Mig to ristrict themselves for only Russian technology. And there is another doubt that China might also share this jet in future as they did with SU30 which India will never like.
> 
> *Rafale.* I feel that India is not very much intrested in rafale coz different experts says that it might ask heavy upgradation cost.
> 
> * Gripen NG* its good jet but not ideal for India. May be it wins but it has lesser winning chances..
> 
> 
> *My judgment says that India will go for EU or Mig.*




I think it is like this
1. EF
2. F-18
3. Mig-35
4. Rafale
5. Gripen NG
6. F-16


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## Patriot

EF is best but it's very expensive.I highly doubt it will be selected.It's between Rafale and F18 SH IMHO.Although India may order both F18 as well as Rafale.


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## duhastmish

there are chances we might go for - f16 with less number and a certain number of f-35 along with it.

But there has to be a big pressure from american side and indian politics. 
because that deal is not suitable for india. we need numbers from this MRCA.


----------



## holysaturn

MZUBAIR said:


> In 2004, first time I heard about this deal. now its 2009 when India is finalising this deal.
> Wt ever they will finalise, they will not get it within 5 years.
> Noew 2004 ->6 years passed->2009-> 5 more years in development program-> 2 years for trainings= *Total time will be 12 years to acquire 126 jets*
> 
> Dont u think the deal took so much time?



su-30 is a difficult jet to build.it is bigger incorporates lesser advanced manufacturing methods and materials than the jets in mmrca.it should also be noted that infrastructure will be enhanced(as it is one of the main goals of mmrca).private firms will also be involved unlike the manufacture ofsu-30.the jets in mmrca involve lesser number of joint parts than su-30 due to more advanced airframes and will result in lesser manufacturing time.also western manufacturing techniques may also be involved if a western jet is chosen.


----------



## Cockpuncher

MZUBAIR said:


> In 2004, first time I heard about this deal. now its 2009 when India is finalising this deal.
> Wt ever they will finalise, they will not get it within 5 years.
> Noew 2004 ->6 years passed->2009-> 5 more years in development program-> 2 years for trainings= *Total time will be 12 years to acquire 126 jets*
> 
> Dont u think the deal took so much time?



Welcome to Indian Democracy


----------



## Rajkumar

Cockpuncher said:


> Welcome to Indian Democracy



rather,
welcome to Indian bureaucracy 
http://www.defence.pk/forums/economy-development/27718-indian-bureaucracy-worst-asia-says-survey.html#post390856


----------



## sancho

heartwinlion said:


> Tranche 3 come with AESA and resolve the a2g capabilities and this the best way to know the superior western technology coze today after F-22 it is the best air superiority fighter but when T-3 it is the best 4++ generation fighter and if u comparer with French fighter with EF I dont think there is much difference in the price coze both are expansive. And also we can get the partner of EF for future it also help us in LCA (EADS helping us to reduce the weight) and MCA.


The problem is that the tranche 3 is splitted now and it's not decided what new a2g capabilities will be added, or funded. Specially Britain is facing many funding problems. Also as I said with Mki and FGFA our need for air superiority is filled I guess. That all causes delays and that is something that we don't need with our own delays at LCA.
I agree the techs of EF are great, that's why I hope we will take that engine (with TVC) for LCA mk2, but we need a fighter that can be produced fast, without any delays. That's why I have some doubts about it, besides the high costs of course.
You might be right that Rafale is not much cheaper, but if we can put Kaveri in it like they offered, it should reduces the cost significantly. 


MZUBAIR said:


> In 2004, first time I heard about this deal. now its 2009 when India is finalising this deal.
> Wt ever they will finalise, they will not get it within 5 years.
> Noew 2004 ->6 years passed->2009-> 5 more years in development program-> 2 years for trainings= *Total time will be 12 years to acquire 126 jets*
> Dont u think the deal took so much time?


I think you mix it up with the first competition where Mirage, F16 and the first Saab Gripen was tenders. Now it has changed to MMRCA with Mig 35, EF, Rafale and F18, that's why it's took longer. Trials are in aug and the deal should be fixed in 2010. You can expect the first squad around 2013/14 (one squad should be made in winning country, the rest should be licence produced).


----------



## heartwinlion

sancho said:


> I agree the techs of EF are great, that's why I hope we will take that engine (with TVC) for LCA mk2, but we need a fighter that can be produced fast, without any delays. That's why I have some doubts about it, besides the high costs of course.
> You might be right that Rafale is not much cheaper, but if we can put Kaveri in it like they offered, it should reduces the cost significantly.



Can u tellme GE414 is TVC or without TVC one more think ge 100kn in F/B but if we select ej200 it only 90kn it make any different for our AF??

u r talking about changing engine in Rafale how can u reduce weight currently it has 1100k.g.
And for your information 
Engine M88 KAVERI(under construction)
L 139 137.4
D 27.5 35.8
W 897 1100 
D/T 50 52
FULL A/B 75 81/ goal to achieve 90 
Again it will take time and also kaveri is not successful yet only testing mode not fully opreateable.


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## Patriot

Tranche 3 won't be ready before 2011/12 AFAIK.


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## heartwinlion

saadahmed said:


> Tranche 3 won't be ready before 2011/12 AFAIK.



IAF Ist mmrca sqn come 2013/2014. So it is not a worry factor.


----------



## holysaturn

heartwinlion said:


> Can u tellme GE414 is TVC or without TVC one more think ge 100kn in F/B but if we select ej200 it only 90kn it make any different for our AF??
> 
> u r talking about changing engine in Rafale how can u reduce weight currently it has 1100k.g.
> And for your information
> Engine M88 KAVERI(under construction)
> L 139 137.4
> D 27.5 35.8
> W 897 1100
> D/T 50 52
> FULL A/B 75 81/ goal to achieve 90
> Again it will take time and also kaveri is not successful yet only testing mode not fully opreateable.



ge-414 produces higher thrust and is similar in maintanance to that of 404.it has also proved in hot environments .the ej-200 is not proven and it has to undergo modifications to satisfy 95-100kN mark which reduces its life due to higher wear and tear,but it is more fuel efficient.the ge-414 comes with a new core still being tested.

*Changes in the Airframe. Mr Johnson explained that the dimensions of the Eurojet 200 are identical to the existing engine being used by the LCA. Mounting this engine will not require any changes in the existing airframe of the LCA. The same however cannot be said about some other engines, which may necessitate modifications in the airframe, which by itself is a major modification and can significantly derail the project.
Development Potential. One of the interesting aspects of the Eurojet 200 is the inherent design capability to step up performance without tampering with the existing engine. Explaining this Mr Herrmann said that upto 15% improvement in the thrust can be achieved by minor adjustments in the same engine. The user has to specify the purpose for which the increased thrust is needed e.g. during take off, while performing maneuvers or for super cruise. The engine will be adjusted as per the needs of the user. Increased thrust up to 30% can be achieved, but for that we have to replace a few components. Also the user must accept certain reduction in the overall engine life which will be a direct outcome of increased wear and tear.*

South Asia Defence & Strategic Reveiw


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## Screaming Skull

Hi,

Guys at HAL are very keen on having the EJ-200 for LCA. It is lighter than GE F-414 and most suited for LCA. But, HAL may not have its way if political pressure is exerted on them. IMO go for EJ-200 and EF-Typhoon for MMRCA. That way it will bring down the total cost of both deals put together. Moreover EADS has offered technical consultancy and joint marketing options for LCA if we go for the Typhoon in the MMRCA. Also, like most members believe the cost of EJ is not gonna be as high as 90mil/piece. India will be producing most of the aircrafts in house like the MKI through SKD, CKD and full ToT. Only 20-25 will be bought off the shelf.


----------



## sancho

heartwinlion said:


> Can u tellme GE414 is TVC or without TVC one more think ge 100kn in F/B but if we select ej200 it only 90kn it make any different for our AF??


The GE 414 is not offered with TVC, also I don't think the higher thrust of it will be mor preferable for LCA cause IAF aim for Kaveri on LCA was also 90Kn. So the EJ 200 engine fullfil this requirement and adds more capability (some reports were talking about 3D TVC!)



heartwinlion said:


> u r talking about changing engine in Rafale how can u reduce weight currently it has 1100k.g.
> 
> And for your information
> Engine M88 KAVERI(under construction)
> L 139 137.4
> D 27.5 35.8
> W 897 1100
> D/T 50 52
> FULL A/B 75 81/ goal to achieve 90
> Again it will take time and also kaveri is not successful yet only testing mode not fully opreateable.


It was not me talking about it, Dassault officials offered this option and I never read that the Kaveri has to lose weight to be fitted into Rafale. If so they know it and might have some ideas how to make it.
However as you can see the Kaveri already provides more thrust then the normal M88, although it uses the same Eco core. But it is reported that Snecma already developed a 90 Kn M88-3 version, which UAE can have if they will fund it and buy Rafale. 
For us that would mean, if we go for Rafale and would get the M88-3 core for Kaveri, we can develope Kaveri faster and could use it in Rafale and LCA.
It is the same advantage that F18SH, or EF offers. Same engine for LCA mk2 and MMRCA, but Rafale is the only one where we can fit our own engine! 
I agree it might need some time till Kaveri is ready, but with Snecma help and not to forget that still 4 - 5 years are left till MMRCA will arrive, I think it could work.


----------



## sancho

holysaturn said:


> ge-414 produces higher thrust and is similar in maintanance to that of 404.it has also proved in hot environments .*the ej-200 is not proven and it has to undergo modifications to satisfy 95-100kN mark which reduces its life due to higher wear and tear*,but it is more fuel efficient.the ge-414 comes with a new core still being tested.


The EJ 200 is proven, German Luftwaffe made 10 000 flighthours with that engine on EF 2000 (but without TVC). As I mentioned in my last post, the aim of IAF for Kaveri engine used in LCA was 90 Kn, only because GE 414 can provide more thrust now, doesn't mean it is necessary for LCA. The main disadvantage of GE414 is that new modifications at LCA airframe is needed to make it fit, EJ 200 fit without!


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## King Julien

why is no one talking about mig 35  

have you heard about ionized gas.... after all stealth is the mantra of this gen


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## luckyy

King Julien said:


> why is no one talking about mig 35
> :



navy going to operate MIG-29K and 
MIG-35 is going to get the MMRCA deal , 

everybody knows it , so , what's to talk about..


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## heartwinlion

luckyy said:


> navy going to operate MIG-29K and
> MIG-35 is going to get the MMRCA deal ,
> 
> everybody knows it , so , what's to talk about..



India want advance western technology but in Mig-35 it come all same and Russia not providing any advance TOT. We are already taken Russian best TOT for our SU-30MKI and for future FGFA. But if we go for western it will helpful for our LCA and later for MCA. SO if u see India IAF future is mix technology both Russia + Indian = Su-30MKI & FGFA. And from Western + Indian = LCA & MCA.


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## sancho

luckyy said:


> navy going to operate MIG-29K and
> MIG-35 is going to get the MMRCA deal ,
> 
> everybody knows it , so , what's to talk about..


Navy had to go with Mig 29K cause it was a combined deal. In fact they considered F18SH and Rafale for Gorshkov too, but Russia said too many changes were needed. 
So if they could, they might went with a western fighter too!


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## holysaturn

video on gripen for india
G-zCxDGpuwQ[/media] - GRIPEN FOR INDIA


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## dave

Gripen is good choice for MRCA but pakistan have the awacs from saab too that make any diffrance politically or aircraft wise. Thax


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## heartwinlion

holysaturn said:


> video on gripen for india
> G-zCxDGpuwQ[/media] - GRIPEN FOR INDIA



Its depend on iaf mod if they want single engine a/c then they defiantly go for NG but if they want best mcra a/c which it is not. One more think if u compare price tag of NG with other contender like F-18 & F-16 then it has lesser change against F-18 and also in NG about 30-50% part r come from usa. It is also against it.


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## luckyy

seem that india govt has sorte out a formula on End User Agreement with US...

chances of F-18SH has brighten...


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## duhastmish

Heard from a offical that f-16 - has probably very high chance of qualifying for MRCA, since indian navy want jsf-35 , we might end up with mix bag of F-16IN and F-35.

F-16 will be way to advance and will have avionics from fifth gen fighter. except for stealth. 

This will fulfill both the requirement for india, numbers + quality. Indian navy is not really happy with the idea of procurement of F/A18 SH.


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## sancho

duhastmish said:


> Heard from a offical that f-16 - has probably very high chance of qualifying for MRCA, since indian navy want jsf-35 , we might end up with mix bag of F-16IN and F-35.
> 
> F-16 will be way to advance and will have avionics from fifth gen fighter. except for stealth.
> 
> This will fulfill both the requirement for india, numbers + quality. Indian navy is not really happy with the idea of procurement of F/A18 SH.


Doubtful, we won't get 126 less usefull F16 for IAF, only to get some 30 - 50 F35 for IN and that way after 2015!
The only real difference from F16IN to F16 block 52 that PAF will get is the AESA radar and a different engine, the rest is mostly the same and provides no advantages IAF. Also PAF is way more experienced with that aircraft, so they knows it's advantages, but also it's disadvantages!
Besides the Mig 35, this is clearly the least capable fighter for IAF, if we go US fighter it must be F18SH, at least for IAF.


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## duhastmish

Well i heard it from source. f16 and jsf-35 have many component same so easy some of the infrastructure will be same for both the fighters.

But talkign hypothetically i think india can go for - f/a 18 sh and mixed with 60 jsf. which will be bad deal - i know because totally diffrent fighters need diffrent infrastructure to maintain, and understand. lol

Some time i think - govt is just playing fool- when are we havin trials ? i think we are back to square one - biggest loss is of time - by forum mebers here and other defence sites. lol


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## Screaming Skull

Problems galore with EF!!!!

Bundeswehr: Blindflug im Eurofighter - SPIEGEL ONLINE - Nachrichten - Politik *(in German)*


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## heartwinlion

sancho said:


> Doubtful, we won't get 126 less usefull F16 for IAF, only to get some 30 - 50 F35 for IN and that way after 2015!
> The only real difference from F16IN to F16 block 52 that PAF will get is the AESA radar and a different engine, the rest is mostly the same and provides no advantages IAF. Also PAF is way more experienced with that aircraft, so they knows it's advantages, but also it's disadvantages!
> Besides the Mig 35, this is clearly the least capable fighter for IAF, if we go US fighter it must be F18SH, at least for IAF.



I think u r right f-16 is old frame and it retirement come when f-35 come in picture from 2015. If iaf wants f-35 then gives usa a big order which they cannot ignore it like 200 plane it is huge no. may be usa provide tot and give us production permission. I dnt think no other country go for that much no.


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## SQ8

Question for Indian members:
Who is on the selection committee for this procurement?


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## Patriot

heartwinlion said:


> I think u r right f-16 is old frame and it retirement come when f-35 come in picture from 2015. If iaf wants f-35 then gives usa a big order which they cannot ignore it like 200 plane it is huge no. may be usa provide tot and give us production permission. I dnt think no other country go for that much no.


sorry..just could not help but laugh at your statement.US is not even giving full TOT to Level 1 Partners (they also invested 5 billion each for development AFAIK) (Which are only NATO Allies) and you think they will give India all the tech with 100&#37; Tot.You my friend is indeed living in dream's land. or maybe on crack.


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## anathema

saadahmed said:


> sorry..just could not help but laugh at your statement.US is not even giving full TOT to Level 1 Partners (they also invested 5 billion each for development AFAIK) (Which are only NATO Allies) and you think they will give India all the tech with 100% Tot.You indians are indeed living in dream's land. or maybe on crack.



Have to agree with you over there....If india wants ToT then France / Sweden are the best viable options...keeping in mind that the inclination is to move away from russian systems.


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## anathema

santro said:


> Question for Indian members:
> Who is on the selection committee for this procurement?



Flight test's are carried out by Test flight centre based in Bangalore (Forgot the name, but i think its NTCRT). Flight test centre is made of IAF & IN senior pilots. Once they complete test flights both at home as well as abroad, they submit their findings to IAF HQ & South block(MoD). After revieing the reports IAF HQ (all the top brass) will select the top two places amongst MMRCA contenders. They will then submit this report to MoD. MoD will then begin the price negotiations, offset clause negotiations , etc and will finally award the contract to one plane. Note that it would be extremely difficult for MoD to override IAF's choice for MMRCA. For example if IAF has selected rafale as their choice and F16 as their second choice, it would be very difficult for MoD to push for F16 just by giving political reasons.


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## SQ8

Yup..political forces seem to have learned their lesson about interfering in procurements in our part of the world for now.


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## holysaturn

saadahmed said:


> sorry..just could not help but laugh at your statement.US is not even giving full TOT to Level 1 Partners (they also invested 5 billion each for development AFAIK) (Which are only NATO Allies) and you think they will give India all the tech with 100% Tot.You my friend is indeed living in dream's land. or maybe on crack.



us may not give full TOT but if it provides the source code(like israel)then indian systems(like ecm,mission computers,avionics,weapons)can be integrated.while tot for aesa will be limited ,airframe parts can be locally manufactured.this scenario is remote though


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## sancho

heartwinlion said:


> I think u r right f-16 is old frame and it retirement come when f-35 come in picture from 2015. If iaf wants f-35 then gives usa a big order which they cannot ignore it like 200 plane it is huge no. may be usa provide tot and give us production permission. I dnt think no other country go for that much no.


Sorry mate they arent't even sharing their techs with Israel, or GB and won't do it with us! GB wants to buy nearly 150 and paid the most for development, but they are still only a buyer not a real partner. Also keep in mind that F35 is still under development and already facing delays and with our old Migs we don't have time to wait.


holysaturn said:


> us may not give full TOT but if it provides the source code(like israel)then indian systems(like ecm,mission computers,avionics,weapons)can be integrated.while tot for aesa will be limited ,airframe parts can be locally manufactured.this scenario is remote though


We don't even get source codes for F16 IN and F18 SH, so for sure not for F35, they will never allow licence production of their latest fighter in India with our ties to Russia.


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## Gabbar

*All set for flight evaluation of multirole combat aircraft *

BANGALORE: The Indian Air Force&#8217;s bid to acquire 126 medium multirole combat aircraft has got a much-needed push. 

The Defence Ministry has issued *&#8220;the letters of invitation for flight evaluation trials&#8221;* to six companies that are vying for the $10-$12-billion contract.

They are the European Aeronautic Defence and Space Company, which pitches in with Eurofighter Typhoon, America&#8217;s Lockheed Martin (F-16 Falcon) and Boeing Integrated Defence System (F/A-18F Super Hornet), Russia&#8217;s Mikoyan (MiG-35), Sweden&#8217;s Gripen (JAS-39) and France&#8217;s Dassault (Rafale). 

The ball is now in the IAF&#8217;s court &#8220;to speedily complete the flight evaluation and indicate its choice,&#8221; say Ministry officials. 

Between July and March next, the IAF will have to undertake the trials, initially in India to test the performance of the aircraft under local conditions and then in the countries of their origin. Armament trials will be conducted in the country of origin as bringing weapons to India could be problematic. 

For the evaluation trials, the IAF is likely to form two teams composed of test pilots, flight test engineers and maintenance crew, drawn primarily from the Aircraft Systems and Testing Establishment and, to a lesser extent, from fighter squadrons. The teams are also likely to include officials of Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (to look into technology transfer and industrial partnership) and the Centre for Military Airworthiness and Certification. 

Besides enabling the IAF test pilots to try out the aircraft, the trials will allow flight and ground test crew to know about the maintenance and overhaul facilities required. 

Once the IAF makes its evaluation, some time in 2010, commercial negotiations could begin. The terms indicate that the first aircraft will have to be delayed 48 months after a contract is signed.

Time-consuming, expensive 


The time-consuming and expensive process &#8212; it could cost each competitor $5 million &#8212; will test each aircraft whether it can measure up to the performance indicators set forth in flight manuals in Bangalore, Jaisalmer and Leh (under normal conditions, in hot weather and at a high altitude). 

Each competitor is sending two aircraft. Informed sources have indicated that Rafale will be one of the first to be evaluated. It will fly into Bangalore in the first week of September.

Officials of the companies told The Hindu that they had initiated a survey of the locations, where their aircraft would be tested.


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## indiatech

*First Rafale Export Sale Advances as UAE Detail Specifications *

Negotiations for the sale to the United Arab Emirates of 60 Dassault Aviation Rafale combat aircraft passed a major milestone today, as the U.A.E. government submitted its specifications to France. This will allow detailed contract negotiations to begin on prices and delivery dates, possibly leading to contract signature by year-end. This government-to-government deal is valued at 6 to 8 billion euros, depending on the exact content of the weapons, support and spares package included in the contract. Long-running talks on the contract had been coasting while Abu Dhabi, whose air force will operate the aircraft, finalized the technical aspects of the aircraft. These notably included which version of the Snecma M-88 engine, which long-range air-to-air missile, and which radar the UAE wanted, and these technical uncertainties prevented representatives of the two governments from opening formal contract negotiations. 


The UAE specifications call for a more capable aircraft than the latest F3 standard in production for the French air force and navy. The UAE have asked for engine thrust to be increased to 9 tonnes each (instead of 7.5 tonnes for the current version), which will ensure a very high power-to-weight ratio given that empty weight is less than 10 tonnes (increasing to 24.5 tonnes maximum take-off weight). They also want an AESA radar and improved electronic countermeasures being developed by Thales, and the MBDA Meteor beyond visual range air-to-air missile. Initial deliveries could begin in 2013 if the contract is signed by year-end. Below are the related statements issued this morning by the UAE government and French President Nicolas Sarkozy.

*UAE Submits Technical Specifications for Rafale to France*

The Government of France has received the technical and operational specifications required in the French Rafale jet fighter from the UAE Armed Forces within the framework of the ongoing negotiations between the governments of the UAE and France. The date of signing the deal, which could be one of the most important export contracts of the aircraft so far, is set to be fixed in pursuant of results of the financial negotiations.


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## indiatech

*United Arab Emirates Closing in on Rafale *

The Rafale fighter could be one step away from securing its first export order, following submittal last week to the French government of final technical requirements for a 6-10 billion euro ($8.3-13.8 billion) 60-aircraft purchase by the United Arab Emirates late last week.Dassault Aviation officials say the document signifies basic agreement on the specifications, permitting the two sides to proceed to negotiation of pricing and financing terms. The French also will have to help find a buyer for the UAE's fleet of 63 Mirage 2000-9 fighters, which the Rafale will replace. Laurent Collet-Billon, head of French armaments agency DGA, says the objective is to sign a contract by year's end. But Dassault Chairman/CEO Charles Edelstenne, mindful of a last-minute loss to the Lockheed Martin F-16 in Morocco in 2008, cautioned "against crying victory before the last whistle blows."The UAE wants an aircraft reflecting the most advanced current Rafale standard, including active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, Meteor beyond-visual-range air-air missile, Damocles targeting pod, and an enhanced OSF forward infrared search and track system and missile warning receiver. These improvements, including the AESA, are to be introduced into the French armed forces starting in 2012. Meteor integration is slated to begin only in 2013-14 for service entry in 2017-18, but military officials say this date can be moved up if necessary. The UAE envisions replacing its first Mirage 2000-9s in 2013.The UAE is also demanding a higher thrust version of the fighter's Snecma M88 engine to suit the hot-and-high conditions prevalent in the Middle East. A test program for the new powerplant, aimed at raising thrust to 9 metric tons from 7.5 tons currently, was announced in the run-up to last week's Paris Air Show. The main focus of the program is a new high-pressure core design that will begin running in September as part of a package of improvements, known as the Pack CGP-9T, intended to reduce M88 ownership costs for the French armed forces.A demonstrator for the low-pressure part of the engine began testing this spring. The test program would enable the higher-power version to be available within three years of contract signature, Snecma executives say.For the time being, the question of funding the M88 upgrade, estimated to cost 250-300 million euros, remains unresolved. So far, the French government says it has no requirement for the higher-thrust version, which means the UAE would have to pick up the tab - perhaps along with other interested customers like Kuwait, with a similar requirement. But the government had initially dragged its feet at funding the AESA, forcing industry to bear the cost of development through deferral of a six-aircraft Rafale order, only to reinstate the order last year.


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## sancho

*Typhoon T3A To Have Mechanical Array Radar*

It seems like AESA development for Eurofighter Typhoon will face more delays. 


> The bulk of Eurofighter Tranche 3A aircraft will likely initially be fitted with the Captor M mechanically-scanned array radar, as the four-partner nations try to agree on a common road-map for integrating future radar technology.



Paris 2009 Special Report by AVIATION WEEK

Tranche 3B which must be negotiated after 2011/12 might get it, but will (or can) IAF take the risk and wait till then to decide about MMRCA?
Doubtful, imo this could be a big setback for EF in MMRCA, because you can't justify the high costs of that aircraft without an AESA radar and more delays.


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## sajidkhan

hey can any1 tell me which fighter will iaf probably choose???
it seems like the competition is bw f-18sh and mig-35!
PLZ also give reasons with the aircraft u r mentiong!


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## Haanzo

*IAFs search for jets to begin in Blore*
Kalyan Ray: New Delhi: DH News Service

The Indian Air Forces (IAF) search for 126 multi-role fighters in a mega $10 billion defence deal is expected to kick start from Bangalore where the planes will undergo the *first round of trials in a month or two.*


The *field evaluation trial will begin from the Yalehanka air base in Bangalore* where the aircrafts performance, system and tolerance of humidity trials will be tested. The process is likely to commence in July.

The fighters in contention are USAs F-16 Falcon from Lockheed Martin and F/A-18 Super Hornet from Boeing, Swedens Gripen (JAS-39), Rafale from Frances Dassault Aviation, Russian MiG-35 and Eurofighter Typhoon from European consortium EADS.
Barring Typhoon and Grippen, other four had flown in the Bangalore air show in February last.

The no-cost, no-commitment trials would be in sequence, starting from Bangalore, sources said, adding that it might take t*wo years to complete the trials.*
Each company will be asked to bring two-three planes for the trials.
From Bangalore, the planes will go to Jaisalmer for hot weather and weapon trials.
The final phase of the trials would be conducted at Leh to judge their performance in cold weather and high altitude conditions.

After the Indian leg of the trial is over, there could also be another weapon-firing trial outside India, possibly in the manufacturing country.
Interestingly, though one of the competitors, Rafale, reportedly went out of the race due an incomplete tender form, it is believed to be back in the race, thanks to the diplomatic intervention from France.

These 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft will be one of the mainstays for the IAF along with Su-30 and indigenous light combat aircraft (LCA).
The IAF targets to bolster its squadron strength up to the sanctioned position of 39.5 squadrons by inducting MMRCA, LCA and Su-30s.

Former IAF chief Fali Homi Major had admitted that the IAF force strength was down to 34 squadrons, which is expected to go out even further in the coming years due to phasing out of aircraft of old vintage.
However, if the MMRCA deal happens in time and the LCA comes to the service by 2010-11, the IAF can hope to have the sanctioned strength by 2017 and a little more by 2020.

While 18 MMRCA will be purchased in flyaway conditions, the remaining 108 will be manufactured at the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd under licence. 
The MMRCA deal will also aid the IAF to simplify its inventory management rather than maintaining a large number of different aircraft. 


IAFs search for jets to begin in Blore

finally can take pics of rafale in india


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## sancho

What exactly will be tested during the trials, I mean 2 years are a loooong time for testing or?


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## rhythm_guy

I hav readout sumwhere in the thread that india Got 20around mig-35......is it true?


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## Haanzo

rhythm_guy said:


> I hav readout sumwhere in the thread that india Got 20around mig-35......is it true?



sir it was mig-29k and these are yet to be delivered and the mig-35 is based on mig-29k

@sancho

lots of money involved and hence lots of time is required .....for a much details about the tests ...here the f-18 as example
















For the uninitiated, the above tableaux give a detailed explanation of the forthcoming flight evaluation process and schedules for the F/A-18F Super Hornet Block 2 that is likely to be conducted by the Indian Air Force (IAF) sometime this August over a two-week period. Close to 30 sorties lasting 45 flight-hours are expected to be flown, with half the sorties expected to be devoted to the evaluation of the Raytheon-built APG-79 AESA radar. Of all the six contenders for the IAF's M-MRCA requirement, the Super Hornet, the Rafale F-3 and the MiG-35 are expected to be subjected to the most stringent flight evaluations as only these three contenders are being offered with AESA radars. Of these three, only two--the Super Hornet (with the APG-79) and the Rafale F-3 (with the THALES-built RBE-2)--are in operational service. The JAS-39IN Gripen NG on offer to the IAF is also expected to be fitted with the ELTA Systems-built EL/M-2052 AESA radar by the time the IAF evaluation team proceeds to Sweden. The Block 70 F-16IN Super Viper from Lockheed Martin is being proposed with the Northrop Grumman-built APG-80 AESA radar that is also on board the F-16C/D Block 60 of the UAE Air Force, but in the absence of any such in-house available aircraft for the IAF's flight evaluations, Lockheed Martin will reconfigure one of its F-16 Block 60 flight simulators into the Block 70 configuration for the IAF flight evaluation team, a process similar to what Boeing IDS had done for the P-8I LRMR/ASW platform's evaluation process

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Screaming Skull

Hi,

Looks like Shiv Aroor has started a 6 part series on the MMRCA contenders in his blog, where he compares the perceived strengths and weaknesses of the 6 aircrafts in contention from the IAF and MoD pov. Seems interesting. Today he has started with F-16IN. So, here we go!

*MMRCA Part 1 - The F-16IN Super Viper​*
The handful of IAF pilots who got a chance to fly one of the UAE Block 60 Desert Falcons at Yelahanka in February had fantastic things to say about the aircraft. They were sold on everything from the sidestick to the the phenomenally well-designed bubble canopy, and from the gorgeous low altitude handling characteristics to the add-on IR pod. And this is quite separate from their experience of the aircraft's cockpit avionics. That's something that can scarcely be overstated. Based on my personal discussions with pilots, Defence Ministry officials and others familiar with the aircraft, here's a run down of the F-16's strengths and weaknesses in the current MMRCA competition. Remember, this is an overview of the opinion in establishment circles on the aircraft, and not merely a reiteration of facts already in the public domain.

*STRENGTHS*

There is simply no denying the F-16's operational record, a statistic completely unmatched by any other fighter plane flying today. The figures speak for themselves: 13 million flight hours, out of which 400,000 hours have been spent in combat. The type has flown over 100,000 combat missions and has been proven to be a true multirole fighter. The type has scored 72 air-to-air kills in the combat missions it has been flown on. This is an aspect that enjoys very serious credence within decision-making circles. The fact that the fighter is owned and operated by 24 nations is another source of reassurance. The air force also views this as a de-risking aspect of any potential purchase. The aircraft comes equipped with an AESA radar (the Northrop Grumman AN/APG-80) that the IAF absolutely adores. The IAF also feels the MIL-STD-1773 data bus on the fighter will be an enormous and valuable legacy leap, and this has been a point of some discussion during internal presentations made on the MMRCA contenders. The aircraft's cockpit ergonomics has the IAF in raptures, including former chief S Krishnaswami, who flew an F-16I during a visit to Israel in 2004, and could barely stop talking about what an amazing cockpit it had. One of the F-16's principal strengths is also its unit price. At under $30-million a piece, the IAF views the F-16 as a highly capable fighter at a highly competitive purchase price. The fact that there have been 52 follow-on buys of the type are considered an indicator to the IAF that ownership/lifecycle costs are also competitive. The IAF doesn't miss the fact that the F-16 is one of only two aircraft in the sweepstakes that fits the original weight specs laid out in the original qualitiative requirement -- QRs which were substantially altered later to allow in heavy fighters. Finally, (and probably most importantly!), the F-16 has the backing of the United States government, the target of India's most ambitious current foreign policy initiatives. Needless to say, anyone who downplays that aspect, is doing so at their peril.

*WEAKNESSES*

Let's get straight to what the IAF and Defence Ministry don't like at all about the F-16. The fact that there is a steady phase-out/replacement programme underway in the US, despite Lockheed-Martin's repeated insistence that there are four large busy production lines. The fact that the US isn't buying anymore Falcons is enough to put serious doubts into India's mind. Picking up early on this, Lockheed has managed to convincingly drive home the point that the F-16 is the logical bridge to the F-35 Lightning II, though this is viewed by the IAF as too crafty. It's almost a fake pledge, considering the gargantual clearances and procedures that would be necessary for India to be considered a buyer of a fifth generation fighter plane. Lockheed's pitch about the F-35 has therefore backfired in parts. A senior IAF officer, recently retired, says "While we were initially only doubtful, the F-35 pitch proved beyond doubt that Lockheed is trying to squeeze the last few drops out of its F-16 production lines, and the Indian requirement is too mouth-watering for them to ignore." The fact that the aircraft is operated by a lot of other countries, ironically, has a minor backlash effect as well on the IAF -- some of the top brass feel that an ambitious new purchase like the MMRCA contract, should be for a unique and exclusive aircraft, not one that is owned and operated by a huge number of other countries (including Pakistan -- the radar signature debate holds credence, incidentally), even though they do reluctantly agree that under the bonnet, the F-16IN is hardly comparable to previous variants of the same type. Finally, relations with the Obama administration have cooled considerably compared to the phonecall-a-minute diplomacy with Bush Jr, and this itself has somewhat blunted the throbbing needle pointing to Washington, even though the President has made it clear that he plans to keep up the evolving strategic dialogue with India.

LiveFist: MMRCA Part 1 - The F-16IN Super Viper


----------



## Screaming Skull

*MMRCA Part 2 - The Swedish Underdog​*
Saab's tagline for the Gripen India campaign ("The Independent Choice") tells you a great deal about the depth of recognition by the company that the competition will most definitely be decided on political lines. Politically, the Gripen is squarely the odds-on underdog in the competition. The fact that it is an "independent choice" hasn't impressed an establishment that refuses to budge from the perception that the purchase of 126 fighters is as much a definitive politico-strategic investment as it is the topping up of depleting squadron strength of the IAF. This is not unreasonable, and even IAF pilots believe that the MMRCA contract is a chance to change a lot of things. Some view the Gripen's marketing as defensive, almost yielding too much to the overwhelming perception that India will buy American. But the aircraft itself has a great deal going for it.

*STRENGTHS*

Apart from the fact that is undoubtedly an excellent airplane, ironically, the Gripen's biggest play is the fact that it is a relatively independent choice. Within the government, many believe the Gripen is a safe bet at a good price, and one that (like the F-16), fits in with what the IAF had originally asked for. There also exists a belief within the government that the people at Saab have pioneered and fast-tracked the Demo NG programme principally for the MMRCA programme, and taken this to mean a level of commitment. The IAF has also received and been impressed by independent testimonials from the air forces of Hungary and Czech Republic about turnaround and ownership costs of the Gripen C/D. The IAF is also quite impressed with the Gripen's permutation configuration of systems, sensors and avionics, not to mention a quantum leap in the computer/bus (including Link 16), GCAS, satellite comms, payload capacity and EWS between the Gripen C/D and the Gripen NG. The IAF also likes the very nifty Cobra helmet mounted display system. The Gripen's pitch that it can be turned around on the ground (engine, systems) the fastest among all contenders makes it perfect for the IAF. The Gripen team has also squarely pitched the airplane as the a perfect complement to the "big-hitter" Su-30MKIs, implying that India's growing Flanker fleet could be inadvertently rendered superfluous if the heavy contenders in the MMRCA -- the F/A-18, the Typhoon or the Rafale -- were chosen for induction.

*WEAKNESSES*

Unfortunately, the Gripen's weaknesses are many. The biggest, I've outlined in the intro. The fact that is provides no strategic fruits is a big downer. The fact that Sweden promises not to interfere, but rather provide full autonomy to the Gripen India programme is simply too little in the Indian context. In fact, there are senior officers in the IAF who believe that Saab flatters itself in the belief that Sweden is powerful enough to fiddle with the strategic/military autonomy of a country like India, especially since the MMRCA provides for a total transfer of technology that very nearly precludes the possibility of any meaningful interference post-contract. Another weakness is the aircraft's country of origin itself. Provided that the Saab proves to be the best aircraft in the field evaluation tests (FETs) -- which it well might -- will any Indian government, let alone the Congress -- have the guts to buy Swedish ever again? If anyone has any doubts about the Bofors ghost, cast a glance at the farcical joke being played in the Indian Army's efforts to purchase 400 towed 155-mm artillery guns. It's been on since 2003, with an unprecedented four trial rounds. The final results laid out that the SWS Bofors gun was on top throughout. At the last moment, then Army chief General JJ Singh gave in to a firm political warning and called for a re-tender of the entire competition. It probably speaks volumes that he's now the politically-appointed Governor of Arunachal Pradesh. A stunned Bofors still hasn't recovered from the shock. Saab, which close links with the Bofors company, knows just what a liability being from Sweden is forever more in India. Worse, there's no sidestepping it. Worse still, even the IAF recognises that. The tragedy is, of course, that the Gripen has absolutely nothing to do with Bofors.

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/06/mmrca-part-2-swedish-underdog.html


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## Arun tevar

There is a general assumtion that the MIG-35 is not a tough a.c compared to american couter parts.But the fact is that it is the most flexible a.c available & could be further developed with 5th gen techs and avionics being developed for FGFG.


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## rhythm_guy

as well all know IG all set to. buy an American ac on russian platform..... pakistan also having F-16 into its inventory..... so India should not go for F-16IN


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## Screaming Skull

*MMRCA Part 3 - The Future Fulcrum​*
The way the Russians have been behaving over a multiplicity of ongoing defence contracts, it would seem as though they had no real interest in the MMRCA deal. The complexion in ties has changed so deeply since the 1980s, that there is a very palpable degree of acrimony in pretty much every dealing with the Russians these days. They'll release photos of smiling Indian MoD bureaucrafts with their bureau officials, but behind the scenes, things are almost always ugly. Yet, Russia has gargantuan leverage with India, based entirely of course on the huge number of deals yet to be completed. The MiG-35 comes across as not convincing enough, and Russia has still to prove that it is a reliable after-sales supplier. The one thing that the Russians have managed to pull off, is to convince the IAF that the MiG-35 isn't just any old Fulcrum. It's the Fulcrum.

*STRENGTHS*

One of the principal draws of the MiG-35 is commonality of inventory type. Alongside the Indian Navy's MiG-29Ks and the IAF's upgraded MiG-29s, a lot of senior MoD officials believe the MiG-35 would be a sensible choice that would translate into real savings in infrastructure and trainign costs. The IAF holds its MiG-29s in high esteem. In fact, the MiG-29M/M2 and subsequently the MiG-35, were developed based in part on informal but organised feedback from IAF pilots on what was required to make the MiG-29 a truly multipurpose airplane. The IAF says it is eagerly awaiting more information and a demonstration of the FGA-35 variant of the Phazotron Zhuk-AE AESA radar, yet untested. In demonstration flights, IAF pilots have also been given an expansive look at the MiG-35's highly unique optronic locator system (OLS), which one IAF pilot (who flew the MiG-35 at Aero India 2007) said surpassed similar gear on some of the other aircraft. The OLS consists of an infrared search and track sensor in on the nose of the aircraft, and a ground attack sensor fitted next to one of the intakes. The IAF has been given demonstrations of the RD-33MK turbofan, and is very pleased with what Klimov has managed to achieve with it, against some fairly difficult deadline and legacy odds, though the IAF and MoD were terribly irked and continue to be so with Russia's decision to sell jet engines to Pakistan for the JF programme -- something that could spell real trouble in the final decision (Remember, other countries sell to Pakistan as well, but India reserves great expectations from Russia, especially since Moscow has articulated these loyalties more than once). Rosoboronexport has managed to convince the IAF quite effectively that the MiG-35 is indeed a quantum technological leap from the legacy Fulcrum. Politically, India continues to have enormous strategic ties with Russia, notwithstanding a certain fraying in recent times. Russia has always supported India politically during operations, and has never dared to question India's use of its equipment. Finally, the Russians have the most well-entrenched and experienced lobby within the IAF and government. And extravagant acts of politico-strategic altruism are not unprecedented when it comes to Indo-Russian defence ties.

*WEAKNESSES*

The MiG-35 programme has a single prototype (the ubiquitous No. 154 -- I flew in this at MAKS 07) and that too one without a full complement of the avionics/sensor package listed in the offered configuration. As a result, the IAF is of the view that a lot of the MiG-35's capabilities, as articulated by its engineers and pilots, are still theoretical, even though they may be perfectly real once the full package is integrated and available. With field evaluations to begin anytime now, there's a sense of apprehension about just how MiG will demonstrate the aircraft without testbed platforms -- which obviously throws up the question, will the IAF consider technological parameters on testbeds rather than on a fully integrated fighter plane? The MiG-35 is rigged with the MIL-STD-1553 electrical data bus, which could prove a serious downer, considering that some rival contenders come with the MIL-STD-1773 optical fibre based data bus, which the IAF is seriously interested in. A factor that almost needs no mentioning is that Russia has carelessly squandered any time it was given to prove its reliability, but persisting with its putrid reputation for being fickle, even heartlessly apathetic, when it came to after-sales support. Even the IAF's existing MiG-29s suffer from serviceability issues as a result of Russia's refusal to cooperate quickly on spares and aggregates support. Something that could go majorly against the MiG-35 is also the fact that the Russian Air Force has no immediate plans to place orders for the aircraft, and is instead going the Super Flanker way with greater gusto. Politically, the government feels there is little that can be politically gained from Russia, considering that strategic ties are already mature, even at a saturation level. Secondly, Russia's position in international politics has plummetted relentlessly since the 1990s, and the country offers no strategic advantages anymore. Third, buying from Russia would be a full-frontal on the US, which -- like it or not -- is India's principal foreign policy holy grail.


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## sancho

Arun tevar said:


> There is a general assumtion that the MIG-35 is not a tough a.c compared to american couter parts.But the fact is that it is the most flexible a.c available & could be further developed with 5th gen techs and avionics being developed for FGFG.


Flexible on what matter and what 5. gen techs can be added to Mig 35? The AL 41 engine should not fit, maybe also the Irbis AESA radar. We add Western and Israeli avionics to all new Russian fighters, I doubt that it will be different on FGFA. So what else is left to be added?


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## Arun tevar

sancho said:


> Flexible on what matter and what 5. gen techs can be added to Mig 35? The AL 41 engine should not fit, maybe also the Irbis AESA radar. We add Western and Israeli avionics to all new Russian fighters, I doubt that it will be different on FGFA. So what else is left to be added?



Brother by fifth gen tech I ment to say that the existing AESA platform is not mature enough,and can only be clasified into a 4th gen tech,but the developments on the FGFA can give it a substancial matureity,improve its performance and range in terms of its AMERICAN counterparts.Moreover I understand the current state of MIG is not as impressive as it was in the past but do u think that russians will let it die an untimely death like MJ,not at all,afterall its a matter of prestige.FURTHERMORE we can obiviously muster them to offer full tech transfer whereas the US will never do so for us atleast in the near future.U r right that we can furter enhance the A.C capability with ISRAELI stuffs.Remember the delays by the RUSSIANS r not just their fault,they r going through a tough time and regarding gorsky,WE SIGNRD it in a different time period further updated our requirement & then also changed our specifications to armaments twice & took a delay of 1year for deciding the A.C on board,& happilly sought the deal for a very low price,which took a worst toll on the russies as they always tryed to apeace us.All this coupled with other factors & the result is what we face.But i am optimistic that this would surely b fixed.MOREOVER the a.c offered by U.S is itself going to b replaced in near future meaning no further upgrades,wheras we r planing an A.C for atleast forty years,wheras though the russians r not intrested in MIG-35 but,our MCA programme is most likekly going to sought the assistence of the MIG ,as feported in many russian media.FURTERMORE many even dought the BVR capabilities of the russias but remind u there is a all bunch of armaments being developed for the 5TH gen platforms including stealth enabelled BVRs.


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## Arun tevar

sreeming skull the belief that US is a holly grail for INDIA'S foreign policy is a complete nonsense,they will only stand by us to meet there own needs,remember US policy itself is based on the principle of use karo aur fenko.tough russins r not as powerfull as they were in the past but frankly speaking there is no one else to challenge their dominance other than them & the new emerging power the CHINESE.I am of the belief that the RUSSIANS,CHINESE,INDIANS should come together barring their differencess and form a new counter weight for the US and its allies,as it is very necessary for the future of 21st century to be in our favour.


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## sancho

Arun tevar said:


> FURTHERMORE we can obiviously muster them to offer full tech transfer whereas the US will never do so for us atleast in the near future.U r right that we can furter enhance the A.C capability with ISRAELI stuffs...MOREOVER the a.c offered by U.S is itself going to b replaced in near future meaning no further upgrades,wheras we r planing an A.C for atleast forty years,wheras though the russians r not intrested in MIG-35 but,our MCA programme is most likekly going to sought the assistence of the MIG ,as feported in many russian media.FURTERMORE many even dought the BVR capabilities of the russias but remind u there is a all bunch of armaments being developed for the 5TH gen platforms including stealth enabelled BVRs.


If the requirment is to get an aircraft which is ready and proven and don't causes any delays in production, which would shrink squad numbers even more, there is nearly no other option than F18SH. Instead of most of the other aircrafts in the competition it comes with completely ready and proven airframe and system. Mig 35 is only a prototype now, even if most of it are only just upg to Mig 29, you can bet that it will face delays!

The point of further upgrades is also not correct, US will keep F18SH in navy for quiet a long time, cause they can't replace them and all F15,16, Harrier, A10 at the same time and those F18SH are the newest of them. In fact F18SH Growler production just started this year and Boeing is already in development of the block 3 upg (likely with CFTs and internal weapon bay of F15SE). 
Whereas Russia will not buy Mig 35 and not even upg their current Mig 29 fleet. They will replace them with Pak Fa, that's why they are pushing that project so bad now. So if we buy Mig 35, we will be the only operator and upgrades will be payed by us only and will costly for sure!

You are right that there will be new gen weapons for FGFA, but you forget that we will still have SU 30 MKI, that can carry more load and more different weapons. It will be far more likely that they will use those weapons, than Mig 29, or 35.
The only disadvantage that the F18SH has are less ToT, restrictions from US gov and that they are close to MKI in performance (weight, range, payload, radar range), we might get full ToT of Mig 35, but will it be a benefit?
Even you said that the Mig 35 AESA is not mature, the engine is the same RD 33 that HAL already produce in licence, with some slighty improvements of thrust and 3D TVC. We already use a better OLS and produce a TVC engine of Su 30 MKI, so these techs won't give us much.

Instead of buying Mig 35 for over $50 million each, we should just upg our older Mig 29 with Zhuk AESA, instead of Zhuk PESA, add the TVC nozzle and the slight improvements of to the engine that HAL produce and get the new OLS if needed. This would make our Mig 29 nearly as capable as new Mig 35, but less costly!
MMRCA must go to any fighter that gives us more new capabilities, or techs and Mig 35 can't offer that.


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## Arun tevar

sancho said:


> If the requirment is to get an aircraft which is ready and proven and don't causes any delays in production, which would shrink squad numbers even more, there is nearly no other option than F18SH. Instead of most of the other aircrafts in the competition it comes with completely ready and proven airframe and system. Mig 35 is only a prototype now, even if most of it are only just upg to Mig 29, you can bet that it will face delays!
> 
> The point of further upgrades is also not correct, US will keep F18SH in navy for quiet a long time, cause they can't replace them and all F15,16, Harrier, A10 at the same time and those F18SH are the newest of them. In fact F18SH Growler production just started this year and Boeing is already in development of the block 3 upg (likely with CFTs and internal weapon bay of F15SE).
> Whereas Russia will not buy Mig 35 and not even upg their current Mig 29 fleet. They will replace them with Pak Fa, that's why they are pushing that project so bad now. So if we buy Mig 35, we will be the only operator and upgrades will be payed by us only and will costly for sure!
> 
> You are right that there will be new gen weapons for FGFA, but you forget that we will still have SU 30 MKI, that can carry more load and more different weapons. It will be far more likely that they will use those weapons, than Mig 29, or 35.
> The only disadvantage that the F18SH has are less ToT, restrictions from US gov and that they are close to MKI in performance (weight, range, payload, radar range), we might get full ToT of Mig 35, but will it be a benefit?
> Even you said that the Mig 35 AESA is not mature, the engine is the same RD 33 that HAL already produce in licence, with some slighty improvements of thrust and 3D TVC. We already use a better OLS and produce a TVC engine of Su 30 MKI, so these techs won't give us much.
> 
> Instead of buying Mig 35 for over $50 million each, we should just upg our older Mig 29 with Zhuk AESA, instead of Zhuk PESA, add the TVC nozzle and the slight improvements of to the engine that HAL produce and get the new OLS if needed. This would make our Mig 29 nearly as capable as new Mig 35, but less costly!
> MMRCA must go to any fighter that gives us more new capabilities, or techs and Mig 35 can't offer that.



Sorry bro I am leading a bussy life of a student & hardly get any time to post.Bro I am not an opposer of US goodie but would not like to use a limited amount of potential,and hence would like to keep all options open & preffer russi or franci A.C.


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## Screaming Skull

*MMRCA Part 4 - The French Squall​*
The Rafale is an intriguing aircraft. Everyone remembers the dramatic way in which Dassault announced in 2006 that it was withdrawing the Mirage-2000-V from the MMRCA competition and instead fielding the the Rafale. It was a surprise move, considering the fact that the IAF had initially simply wanted to buy a whole lot more Mirages as its MMRCA, and was deeply convinced about the capabilities of the Dash-5. Fate (and Dassault) had other plans, it seemed. And with the government, in its wisdom, ordering the IAF to "open up" its qualitative requirements to engender a real competition, Boeing leapt into the fray with the Super Hornet. Almost on cue, the Mirage was withdrawn and the Rafale pitched. There are those who believe this was a seriously bad move, though Dassault unofficially sent across the message that there was no way in hell that it was going to keep its production line warm for the notorious time it was going to take for the Indian government to make its mind up, and also that there was no assurance that the Mirage would be selected finally. And therefore, the Rafale.

*STRENGHTS*

The Rafale smacks of the intangible "newness" of being a truly contemporary airplane built for today's missions. Conversely, it suffers none of the reputational hazards of being an old souped up platform with tinkering under the bonnet. Pitched as an "omnirole" fighter, the IAF has incrementally been convinced of what this term really means. Pitched as a logical next-step to the Mirage -- which the IAF loves with a passion -- the people at Dassault have managed to pitch well the idea that operating the Rafale will be a progression of the same ownership/operation experience. The pitch that IAF pilots will take to the Rafale more easily than any of the other fighters is something that has managed to be persuasive to an extent. While the Thales RBE2 AESA radar is still its final developmental phase, the IAF has been provided with regular and detailed updates on the radar's capabilities and performance parameters, and one officer, who has been part of the teams that receive these updates on a regular basis, says the IAF had no reason to doubt the laid down capabilities, and was in fact deeply impressed with what the French had managed to achieve in what is a science simply dominated by two American firms. Not just that, Dassault says the Rafale is the only aircraft in its class to be equipped with active arrays for both its radar and electronic warfare suite (EWS). IAF officers have in fact regularly been invited to witness RBE2 prototypes being tested on the Hack -- a Mirage-2000 test bed for the radar since 2003. In April 2008, the Rafale opened its operational account by being deployed to Afghanistan and being flown on 220 active combat missions, involving 730 flight hours. This may be peanuts compared to the operational logs of the Rafale's competition in the MMRCA, but the IAF recognises that this is a new aircraft in a transitory phase of tranche-level modernisation. At Red Flag 2008, IAF pilots got up close with the Rafale. A report on the Rafale was in fact informally submitted to Vayu Bhawan by the team when it returned. TheIAF has been given detailed presentations on the Rafale's multi-sensor data fusion system -- the RBE2 radar, Link 16 data bus, Front Sector Optronic (FSO) and SPECTRA self-defense suite and has been impressed by the ensemble. The Rafale is also considered by the IAF to be possibly the only plane in the sweepstakes with a focused use of composites for stealth and reduced RCS. The Rafale will also come with new, high-capability variants of MBDA missiles that the IAF has operated for decades, and places a lot of value on. Former Navy chief Admiral Arun Prakash, as FOC-in-C Western Naval Command, flew the Rafale during an official visit to Paris. A few other senior officers of the IAF have also had a chance to spin up in the otherwise reclusive Rafale. The sense that Dassault isn't displaying its wares like the other five contenders are, is something that has somehow been looked at as "proper" by some in the Defence Ministry. This is, after all, a serious defence procurement, some say -- "there's no need for so much song and dance at Aero India every year". The Rafale is the only aircraft in the sweepstakes that comes with an explicitly stated nuclear delivery capability. None of the others mentioned it. And the reason I mention this is that some very senior officers in the air force, are wondering why. The Rafale is also among the least familiar of the six jets, at least in the Indian media, simply because Dassault has stayed well away from courting publicity -- this is also looked upon by the IAF/MoD as being representative of a deeper, more valuable quality during a procurement process: discretion. Finally, defence deals with France have always been expensive, but always been excellent professional and operational experiences for the Indian forces. From the Mirages to Alouettes to the Mysteres. No spares problems. No nonsense. The French could also leverage significant political power to push India as the prestigious launch customer of the Rafale, though not quite like the Jaguar's initial years were. A maximum 11 Gs in critical manoeuvers doesn't hurt either.

*WEAKNESSES*

The albatross around the Rafale remains its relatively unproven stature, and of course, the fact that it hasn't ever been exported. As one of the most expensive (flyaway cost) aircraft in the sweepstakes, it also comes with possibly the largest price-tag in terms of total contract cost, though Dassault has made strenuous efforts to convey to the IAF that its use of Dassault aircraft over time, particularly the Mirage, will significantly erode the total commitment necessary in terms of new infrastructure. Obviously, the IAF isn't buying this -- they're treating the Rafale as any new aircraft type. There are almost no articulated weaknesses in specifications, though the IAF is anxious about an aircraft that has been fielded for a lot of competitions unsuccessfully. Finally, the government has recently awarded France with the huge Scorpene deal. Awarding the MMRCA to France would be politically too much for too little. The leadership of Nicolas Sarkozy doesn't half do what Jacques Chirac's did in its time.


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## Mig-29

Under pressure from the Pentagon, Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) has been forced to back out of a joint partnership with a Swedish aerospace company to compete in a multi-billion dollar tender to sell new multi-role fighter jets to the Indian Air Force ...
Courtesy live fist


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## BSF

so its down to Mig 35, Euro figher and Rafel.
F 16 and F18 and Gripen are out because they cannot fulfill the TOT requirement.
And i hope MIG 35 wins


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## sancho

Arun tevar said:


> Sorry bro I am leading a bussy life of a student & hardly get any time to post.Bro I am not an opposer of US goodie but would not like to use a limited amount of potential,and hence would like to keep all options open & preffer russi or franci A.C.


No problem, I can understand you but to take another Russian fighter would also reduce our options and increase the reliability right? 
As I said F18SH still have enough potential and would be the perfect gap filler because of unit cost and proven systems. But I also prefer the French Rafale, cause it fits better between LCA and MKI, could replace a lot of older aircrafts (Mirage 2k, Jaguar) and it would be the independent choice. 
Imo India should try to become a partner of Rafale and not only a customer. We already have jv like Kaveri - Snecma engine and Topsight HMD that could benefit Rafale aswell as LCA. A joint production of other parts like RBE 2 radar, Spectra EWS, or weapons like AASM would reduce costs for both too. Also Indian weapons like Astra, or air launched versions of Brahmos and Nag (which already are under development) would give Rafale more variety of weapons for export markets.


Mig-29 said:


> Under pressure from the Pentagon, Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) has been forced to back out of a joint partnership with a Swedish aerospace company to compete in a multi-billion dollar tender to sell new multi-role fighter jets to the Indian Air Force ...
> Courtesy live fist


Just another example that shows how dependent Saab is on other countries (France didn't allow them to integrate the AESA radar that they showed in the Gripen NG demonstrator before), but I wonder what techs the Gripen Ng should get from Israel? I would guess the Elta AESA radar, cause I doubt Saab will have a n AESA ready before we will decide about MMRCA.


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## MFI

BSF said:


> so its down to Mig 35, Euro figher and Rafel.
> F 16 and F18 and Gripen are out because they cannot fulfill the TOT requirement.
> And i hope MIG 35 wins



yup kinda hoping it's the Eurofighter it's agility coupled with speed and if allowed the Israeli 2052 AESA radar will make it a deadly machine.


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## Mig-29

Saab has finally reacted to reports about Israeli Aerospace Industries being forced by the Pentagon to pull out of a partnership for avionics on the Gripen IN being offered to India for the MMRCA competition. Saab spokesperson Anne Lewis-Olsson has announced, "Israel was one of several options for the Gripen NG radar over a year ago but we decided to continue with other alternatives."This statement appears to indicate that IAI was considered at some point, but was dropped for the very reasons that the JPost report lays down. Short point: the Gripen is thankfully very much still in the race, and Saab is in fact a little bemused by the belated report on IAI's exit from the NG programme, though the truth remains that IAI was forced out by US pressure.In addition, Flightglobal's very authoritative aerospace columnist Stephen Trimble has his own take on the whole affair. He writes that Saab had already dropped IAI as an option for the Gripen NG's sensors and has offered India the Gripen armed with an AESA radar made by Italian avionics firm Selex Galileo (see slides). He adds another vital nugget of information -- that the original Thales radar was blocked by the French (conflict with the Rafale), and therefore Saab was forced to scout for other radar vendors.


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## Neutral

if MIG 35 wins by brain then

the dual blade sword advantage!!!

1st MIG 35 & 2nd Much improved Russian ties


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## duhastmish

there were suppose to be MRCA trial in june/nuly any idea ? when this june july will come ? 2019 or 2050 ?


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## sudhir007

duhastmish said:


> there were suppose to be MRCA trial in june/nuly any idea ? when this june july will come ? 2019 or 2050 ?



It been shifted to Aug or Sep. 2009


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## Screaming Skull

*IAFs search for jets to begin in Bangalore​*
Wednesday 8 July 2009 

The Indian Air Forces (IAF) search for 126 multi-role fighters in a mega $10 billion defence deal is *expected to kick start from Bangalore where the planes will undergo the first round of trials in a month or two.*

The field evaluation trial will begin from the *Yalehanka air base in Bangalore where the aircrafts performance, system and tolerance of humidity trials will be tested.* *The process is likely to commence in July.*

The fighters in contention are USAs F-16 Falcon from Lockheed Martin and F/A-18 Super Hornet from Boeing, Swedens Gripen (JAS-39), Rafale from Frances Dassault Aviation, Russian MiG-35 and Eurofighter Typhoon from European consortium EADS. Barring Rafale and Grippen, other four had flown in the Bangalore air show in February last.

The no-cost, no-commitment trials would be in sequence, starting from Bangalore, sources said, adding that *it might take two years to complete the trials.* Each company will be asked to bring two-three planes for the trials. From Bangalore, the planes will go to Jaisalmer for hot weather and weapon trials. The final phase of the trials would be conducted at Leh to judge their performance in cold weather and high altitude conditions.

After the Indian leg of the trial is over, there could also be another weapon-firing trial outside India, possibly in the manufacturing country.
Interestingly, though one of the competitors, Rafale, reportedly went out of the race due an incomplete tender form, it is believed to be back in the race, thanks to the diplomatic intervention from France.

These 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft will be one of the mainstays for the IAF along with Su-30 and indigenous light combat aircraft (LCA).
The IAF targets to bolster its squadron strength up to the sanctioned position of 39.5 squadrons by inducting MMRCA, LCA and Su-30s.

Former IAF chief Fali Homi Major had admitted that the IAF force strength was down to 34 squadrons, which is expected to go out even further in the coming years due to phasing out of aircraft of old vintage.
However, if the MMRCA deal happens in time and the LCA comes to the service by 2010-11, the IAF can hope to have the sanctioned strength by 2017 and a little more by 2020.

*While 18 MMRCA will be purchased in flyaway conditions, the remaining 108 will be manufactured at the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd under licence.* 
The MMRCA deal will also aid the IAF to simplify its inventory management rather than maintaining a large number of different aircraft. 

IAFs search for jets to begin in Blore


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## Mig-29

The Typhoon enjoys a reputation within the IAF of being possibly the most modern and advanced fourth-generation fighter jet flying today. Its multiple unofficial ground and flight demonstrations to IAF pilots have won it unofficial accolades for being a blisteringly good aircraft to fly, with a phenomenal amount of research clearly devoted to technology aimed at staving off the effects of G forces. Pilots believe the Typhoon's airframe is built with beyond visual range combat in mind, even though it demonstrates awesomely tight performance in close-combat drills. The next-generation Meteor beyond visual range air to air missile (BVRAAM) is a valuable standard on the aircraft when its ready. The Eurojet EJ200 turbofan engine's possible selection for the LCA Tejas re-engine programme could provide an enormous fillip to the Typhoon's chances in the MMRCA, considering that those engines will be built under full technology transfer separately in India by HAL. EADS/BAE/Alenia Aeronautica are understood to have provided one of the most comprehensive offset and technology transfer offers in the sweepstakes.

WEAKNESSES

Like the Rafale and the Super Hornet, the Typhoon is a heavy-class twin-engined fighter, which immediately pulls the notches up on ownership cost, maintenance investments and turnaround. But the single most operational weakness (even though it may really be just perception) is that the IAF remains unconvinced of the Typhoon as a true multirole fighter plane. This may have something to do with the Eurofighter's slapdash external pod-based air-to-ground capability declaration for the Singapore Air Force fighter competition, though the IAF is itself of the opinion that the Typhoon is not a true strike fighter, built more as an air superiority and air defense platform, with an unproven, somewhat ad-hoc capability for stand-off interdiction, which is a critical, overriding operational QR in the MMRCA tender document. The stink over the Al Yamama contract with the Saudi government, and an alleged slush fund by BAE Systems for the sheiks could prove to be a real downer for the Typhoon, especially since BAE is the counter at which the Indian government will deal if it chooses the Typhoon. The fact that the government has recently awarded BAE with the Hawk AJT deal -- despite a significant quarter shouting out about kickbacks -- could also go against the Typhoon. The Typhoon is also weak on operational provenness, though the IAF is willing to look beyond that, considering how young the fighter is compared to some of the others.

LiveFist: MMRCA Part 6 - The Typhoon Truth


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## Mig-29

*Boeing eyes $10 bn Indian contract with Super Hornet*

Sun, Jul 12 10:56 AM

St Louis (Missouri), July 12 (IANS) As the race to supply the Indian Air Force with 126 Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MRCA) hots up, Boeing, a leading contender, is showcasing the Super Hornet, promising a new generation of air power.

Eying the over $10 billion contract with India and other high value deals, Boeing last week ceremonially rolled out the first of 24 F/A-18F Block II Super Hornets for the Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF), its first international Super Hornet customer.

'The Super Hornet is on its way to delivering advanced combat capabilities to the Royal Australian Air Force,' said Bob Gower, Boeing vice president of F/A-18 and EA-18 programmes, at a ceremony at Boeing Integrated Defence Systems' production facilities here, watched by international media.

The remaining 23 Super Hornets, each equipped with the Raytheon-built APG-79 Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar, will be delivered to the RAAF in 2010 and 2011.

'The RAAF Super Hornet will bring a new generation of air power to Australia,' said Air Marshal Mark Binskin, chief of RAAF. 'Its advanced, networked weapons system will deliver enhanced air combat capability across the spectrum of air-to-air, strategic land attack and maritime strike.'

The Block II F/A-18E/F Super Hornet is the only 21st century, true multi-role aircraft that is available now and meets the tactical mission requirements of today's complex battle-space, Boeing officials said.

It can perform virtually every mission including air superiority, day/night strike with precision-guided weapons, fighter escort, close air support, suppression of enemy air defences, maritime strike, reconnaissance, forward air control and tanker missions.

Built by the industry team of Boeing, Northrop Grumman, GE Aircraft Engines, Raytheon and 1,900 other suppliers across the US, the Super Hornet provides the war-fighter with today's newest advances in multi-mission capability and growth for decades to come in missions, roles and technology, officials said.

With a total of 11 weapons stations, the Super Hornet provides war-fighters with extraordinary payload flexibility by carrying a mixed load of air-to-air and air-to-ground ordnance.

Two General Electric F414-GE-400 engines power the Super Hornet, producing a combined thrust of 44,000 pounds. The F414's light yet robust design yields a 9:1 thrust-to-weight ratio, one of the highest of any modern fighter engine, the officials said.

The Super Hornet entered combat on its maiden voyage in 2002. Boeing has delivered more than 395 F/A-18E/Fs to the US Navy. Every Super Hornet produced has been delivered on or ahead of schedule, according to the officials.

Contending for what has been touted as India's single largest defence deal ever are five other competing MRCA aircraft-Lockheed Martin's F-16 Falcon, Euro-fighter Typhoon, Swedish Saab JAS 39 Gripen, Russian MiG-35 and the French Dassault Rafale.

Boeing officials would not say anything about the rivals, but Ted Herman, Manager F18 Integrated Business Development Programme, proudly pointed to his unit's enviable record of timely delivery and well-within-budget production with high reliability and high mission capable rates.

Using civil aircraft techniques and features designed in the Advance Strike Technology programme of the 90s, the St. Louis facility rolls out four new planes every month.

But after a contract is signed, it takes about 38 months before the first plane is delivered, with the aircraft taking shape over a period of 18 months in the sprawling 'Home of the Super Hornet' here.

It takes nine months to just forge the fuselage, 50 days to assemble the wings, and another 55 days for forward fuselage assembly, 30 of them used to 'stuff' it with wiring, hydraulics and pneumatics, said Herman as he took the media round what he called the 'most advanced full rate production line in the world'.

Super Hornet's design incorporates all aspects of the aircraft, systems, performance and capabilities, fabrication and manufacture and life cycle support with computer design of structures and components, computer check for fit and assembly and digital shipping, handling and tracking and management on the floor.

Once the aircraft takes full form in final assembly, it is sealed and subjected to a 20-minute heavy rainstorm before it's prepared for flight with all the dynamic structures put in place-engine, CADs (cartridge actuated devices), ejection seats, radar and avionics boxes - and all are run through functional checks.

The first flight is performed by the company test pilot and 'gripes' that show up are fixed before the next flight and verified by the customer.

If India chooses to opt for Super Hornets, it will get the same assurance of real time operational capability with a proven solid design, under budget and on time delivery, said Herman, 'from a team that delivers on promises'.

http://in.news.yahoo.com/43/20090712/890/twl-boeing-eyes-10-bn-indian-contract-wi.html


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## beckham

Are you alright dude ?


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## Gabbar

*^^^ Do not respond to this idiotic poster and spammer!!! BD and Bengali people are beautiful and nice!!!! Ignoring is best cure for this disease.*

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## beckham

Hey watch ur toungue ! Why r u Throwing some meaningless comments and polluting thread !


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## Mig-29

Here we go again Mr. troll has a new identity now.


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## SQ8

I still root for a single engined solution.
There is already a heavy fighter operational in the MKI, MRCA should be an MRCA. 
The twin engined entries in the MRCA contest are for all thier technological prowess still on the heavier side. The Gripen would make a wonderful addition doe to its almost perfect mid level punch not to mention the ability to operate from short runways which seems to go well with the cold start doctrine. Since there is already an MCA planned. Unless that is still a pipe dream??


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## Munir

Lockheed Martin India head takes off in a hurry
Ajai Shukla / New Delhi July 13, 2009, 0:35 IST
With several major defence procurements blocked after the arrest of former Ordnance Factory Board Chairman Sudipta Ghosh on May 19, alarmed defence contractors posted in New Delhi are riveted by another drama.




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-	Raytheon in tie-up for bagging aircraft order
This fortnight, Ambassador Douglas A Hartwick, Lockheed Martin India&#8217;s CEO, who was spearheading the world&#8217;s largest defence manufacturer&#8217;s campaign to sell India the F-16 IN medium fighter aircraft, was withdrawn from India in an unusual hurry. Sources describe Hartwick as &#8220;having barely enough time to pack&#8221; before catching his flight out of Delhi.

Defence ministry sources say Hartwick was removed as CEO after Lockheed Martin was found in possession of two folders containing classified information relating to defence purchases. According to this account, these folders found their way to the corporate headquarters of Lockheed Martin, in Bethesda, Maryland, USA. There, in January 2009, they were mistakenly placed on the desk of an officer unfamiliar with Lockheed Martin&#8217;s operations in India. Reading the &#8220;Government of India, Ministry of Defence&#8221; heading on the file, the Lockheed Martin official referred the folders back to the Indian defence ministry in New Delhi.

Since then, a furious defence ministry has been trying to ascertain how Lockheed Martin obtained those folders and whether ethical standards had been flouted. Since January, through the Aero India 2009 air show in February, where Lockheed Martin displayed its products, including the F-16 IN fighter, the defence ministry has trodden cautiously with Lockheed Martin, without actually taking action against the company.

The general elections placed the controversy on the back burner; now, however, comes Hartwick&#8217;s departure.

Lockheed Martin strenuously denies possessing India-related documents that were not already in the public domain. But in a telephone interview with Business Standard, Richard Kirkland, president of Lockheed Martin&#8217;s South Asia operations, admitted that, in early 2009, the company did write back to &#8220;the appropriate ministry&#8221; about issues that &#8220;we did not sense as understood well enough&#8230; or came through a channel that we would expect.&#8221;

Kirkland explained, &#8220;We had a couple of issues that we did not understand how they would be treated in terms of (the Defence Procurement Policy &#8211; 2008) procedures. We have had occasion to ask various agencies of the government of India for clarification about information that was contained within a larger context or larger report&#8230;&#8221;

Kirkland declined to provide details of the two reports referred back to India&#8217;s defence ministry, but emphasised that neither related to the Indian tender for 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA), worth an estimated $11 billion.

Lockheed Martin also denies that the government of India asked, either formally or informally, for their India CEO to be replaced. Kirkland insists that this is a routine turnover as Lockheed Martin moves into an &#8220;execution phase&#8221;. He said, &#8220;I have had discussions with Ambassador Hartwick as early as Aero India in Bangalore last February, about the transition of office&#8230;&#8221;

Despite Lockheed Martin&#8217;s insistence that this move was envisioned since February, Ambassador Hartwick&#8217;s successor has not yet been decided. Lockheed Martin&#8217;s spokesperson Jeffrey Adams said, &#8220;Richard Kirkland will look after India operations until the company finds a replacement for Ambassador Hartwick.&#8221;

Douglas Hartwick is an old New Delhi hand, having served two tenures in India as a diplomat; the second of them was as the Economic and Scientific Affairs Counsellor in the US embassy from 1994-1997. He went on to serve as US ambassador to Laos before he retired, obtaining the honorific of &#8216;Ambassador&#8217;. In 2007, he joined Lockheed Martin, the world&#8217;s largest defence corporation with annual sales in excess of $40 billion (Rs 2,00,000 crore). It employs 140,000 people worldwide, the bulk of them in the United States.

The company is pushing a range of military systems in India including the F-16 IN fighter; the F-35 Lightening II Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) as the IAF&#8217;s next generation fighter; and the Aegis Combat System for the Indian Navy&#8217;s warships. Last year India signed a contract, under the US government Foreign Military Sales programme, to buy six Lockheed Martin C-130J Super Hercules transport aircraft, worth over a billion dollars. India is likely to exercise its option for another six C-130J aircraft.


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## sancho

santro said:


> I still root for a single engined solution.
> There is already a heavy fighter operational in the MKI, MRCA should be an MRCA.
> The twin engined entries in the MRCA contest are for all thier technological prowess still on the heavier side. The Gripen would make a wonderful addition doe to its almost perfect mid level punch not to mention the ability to operate from short runways which seems to go well with the cold start doctrine. Since there is already an MCA planned. Unless that is still a pipe dream??


I agree with you on the single engine fighters and it would be logically though MMRCA is meant as a replacement for single engine Mig 21. But F16 is an old airframe only with upg systems, except from the radar it will offer nothing new. Gripen NG would be great and I bet very likely if it would be more independent, but with all the reliability to other nations (many main parts of US, AESA development stopped twice under pressure of France and US) it looks weak. Not to forget that it is as the Mig 35 still under development and delays are very likely!
The next one which comes close to them is Rafale, which is a new Mirage 2000 with 2 instead of 1 engine. The size, weight and the performance are still pretty comparable to F16. And it was designed with the aim equal, or in some fields even less maintenance cost than Mirage 2000.
I don't see much chances for the single engine fighters anymore and imo the winner will be Rafale, EF, or F18SH.
MCA is not needed at the moment and should be mainly a push of HAL than from MoD, or IAF. We will have a 5 gen fighter and with MMRCA have the chance to get a low RCS fighter with good a2g capabilities, so HAL should keep concentrating on LCA.


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## SQ8

You know.. India should have gone with that mini flanker offered by Sukhoi has its LCA.. Although the advantages of designing such a fighter on your own are tremendous.. the logistical payoffs to that route would have been greater. Sort of like the F-15-16 mix. 
As far as the MRCA is concerned.. I think logically.. the EF should win(most exported, tried and has much larger user base.
It is what the PAF wanted. That I can assure you is what I heard from my contacts. The Rafale was deemed just too expensive and not worth it. 
The MIG-35.. to me is a poor third in this aspect.. The FA-18.. is a bomb truck, unless the 9x is thrown into the package.


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## BSF

> Lockheed Martin India head takes off in a hurry
> Ajai Shukla / New Delhi July 13, 2009, 0:35 IST
> With several major defence procurements blocked after the arrest of former Ordnance Factory Board Chairman Sudipta Ghosh on May 19, alarmed defence contractors posted in New Delhi are riveted by another drama.


F16 F18 out of the MCRA race.
Now Gripen is said to be still in race but lets face it, it is out as it had troubles with some and Israeli TOT with Americans. You can pretty much count it out.

Rafel,Eurofighter Mig 35.

I hope Mig wings....


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## sancho

santro said:


> You know.. India should have gone with that mini flanker offered by Sukhoi has its LCA.. Although the advantages of designing such a fighter on your own are tremendous.. the logistical payoffs to that route would have been greater. Sort of like the F-15-16 mix.


Independence is the key factor here! If we keep just buying stuff from others, we always will be reliable and in control of them (look at US and how reliable they are to Pak Forces now). 


santro said:


> As far as the MRCA is concerned.. I think logically.. the EF should win(most exported, tried and has much larger user base.
> It is what the PAF wanted. That I can assure you is what I heard from my contacts. The Rafale was deemed just too expensive and not worth it.


Those are also my favourites too, but EF still lacks the a2g capabilities and it shows that having too many partners can be a problem (AESA development unsure because of ITA). Rafale is the better multi role aircraft and would fit in IAF, specially with some customizations (Elta 2052 radar, Kaveri-Snecma engine, Amraam till Meteor is ready), btw if Rafale is too expensive, EF is it also right? 


santro said:


> The FA-18.. is a bomb truck, unless the 9x is thrown into the package.


Don't underestimate the radar and the weapon package! AESA with AIM120-C/D in BVR, AIM9X with JHMCS in WVR, HARM and maybe the Growler light for SEAD are pretty good points and for close combat there are nearly 300 MKI and Mig 29. 
Anyway I prefer the Europeans because of more independence and reliability!


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## Gabbar

Air-pockets before the air fair​
New Delhi: In a few days, the first of the foreign fighters will land in Bangalore to kick-start field trials for India's biggest open tender military contract ever, worth almost Rs60,000 crore, for 126 fighters. Just days away from that, industrial espionage, national rivalries and gigantic logistical nightmares take over the race. 

The complexities of the field trials would be unheard of in Indian military standards. Six of the contenders -- two American fighters (F-18 and F-16), three from Europe (Eurofighter, Gripen and Rafale) and one from Russia (MIG-35) -- would land in India for extensive evaluation by a team of officers drawn from various branches of air force and outside. Those from the IAF's Aircraft and Systems Testing Establishment, DRDO's Centre for Military Airworthiness and Certification and HAL will be involved in the evaluation process. 

The process starts this August and winds up next summer. Competing fighters will be in India for two to three weeks, air force sources indicate. The first fighters to land could be from the US. 

Sources said a large number of air force officials, respective fighter companies and others have been shuttling round the globe for the field trials. Representatives of vendors came to India to survey locations in Bangalore, Jaisalmer and Leh for the field trials. 

Presently, air force is in the process of sending pilots and engineers to vendor locations for training. Vendors have been asked to bring at least one double-seater fighter for the trials, but most of the companies are expected to have at least one back-up during the trial period. 

The teams will also carry out evaluations in the home countries of the fighters. None of the six contenders are expected to fly their fighters across continents armed with missiles.

"So the weapon trials would have to be at the home bases," said an air force source. However, the air force has already said it would prefer to carry out the firing in India. "That would significantly shoot up our insurance charges," says a source in one of the companies. 

Lockheed boss flees
Even as US firm Lockheed Martin makes an aggressive pitch with its legendary F-16 fighter, it has embroiled itself in an embarrassing controversy that forced its India chief to quit and leave India secretly. In a bizarre twist, Lockheed Martin headquarters sent back to the MoD a couple of its internal files that the US defence firm had illegally obtained. The files came back because of a mess-up by a senior executive who thought it was legitimately handed over to the firm by the MoD. 

The heat is on
Sources from Israel Aerospace Industries alleged, through Israeli media, that they were forced to quit a partnership with Gripen, the Swedish fighter, for a contract. Pressure from Pentagon forced the Israelis to keep out of the lucrative contract, but it now looks like the US was paving way for the American fighter companies.


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## sudhir007

France's Dassault targets Lockheed in combat aircraft deal

The gloves are off in the competition to sell India 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) for an estimated Rs 50,000 crore. Two days after Business Standard reported on the sudden replacement of Lockheed Martin India&#8217;s CEO, Lockheed&#8217;s French rival, Dassault Aviation &#8212; whose Rafale fighter is pitched against Lockheed Martin&#8217;s F-16 IN in the MMRCA tender &#8212; is contemplating asking the Indian Ministry of Defence (MoD) to disqualify Lockheed Martin from the tender. The reason: sources in Dassault allege that Lockheed Martin has illegally obtained access to classified documents relating to the competition.

Approached for details of Dassault&#8217;s decision, the company&#8217;s Indian representative, Pusina Rao, told Business Standard over the telephone from Paris, &#8220;Dassault executives are in discussions and will soon reach a final decision on what action it will initiate against Lockheed Martin. In any case, the French government will have the final word, since there are political repercussions involved.&#8221;

Rao declined to comment on how long it would take for Paris to approach the Indian MoD for action against Lockheed Martin.

Sources close to the MMRCA contract point out that tension has been growing between Dassault and Lockheed Martin since the end of 2008, when the Indian media reported that Dassault had been eliminated from the MMRCA contract because it had not fulfilled some of the technical requirements spelt out in the Indian tender. Weeks after the report &#8212; and apparently after French President Nikolas Sarkozy spoke to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh over the phone &#8212; it was announced that Dassault was very much in contention.

But Dassault believed that Lockheed Martin was responsible for those reports. Now, Dassault is determined to get back at Lockheed Martin, citing charges of corruption in clear violation of the guidelines in India&#8217;s Defence Procurement Policy-2008 (DPP-2008).

On Tuesday, reporting on Lockheed&#8217;s India CEO, Ambassador Douglas A Hartwick&#8217;s sudden recall to the US without the appointment of a replacement, Business Standard had quoted Lockheed Martin&#8217;s Asia Chief, Rick Kirkland, as saying that while Lockheed Martin had never possessed classified Indian procurement documents, the company&#8217;s US headquarters had written to the MoD in New Delhi seeking clarification over two &#8220;unclassified files&#8221; that had found their way into Lockheed&#8217;s possession.

The MMRCA competition is growing increasingly heated, with all six competitors &#8212; Lockheed Martin; Boeing; Dassault; Grippen; MiG; and Eurofighter &#8212; scheduled to produce their aircraft for flight testing by the Indian Air Force, turn by turn, starting this month.


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## sudhir007

$12-BILLION PRIZE

All leading world aircraft makers producing advanced combat planes consider the tender for delivering 126 fighters to the Indian Air Force under the MMRCA (Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft) programme the most important and the largest of all present-day tenders. The contract is estimated at $11-12 billion. The Russian MiG-35, US Lockheed-Martin F-16 and Boeing F/A-18, French Dassault Rafale, European Eurofighter Typhoon and Swedish SAAB Gripen are going to compete for this prize. In April, some mass media reported that Rafale refused to participate, but then it was denied and now the French fighter seems to take part in the tender.

Most market analysts think there are no evident winners. The winner will be chosen after comparative tests of all participating fighters that should start in April-May. To this end, each participant should present two aircraft &#8211; a single- and double-seat one. Indian Air Force pilots will carry out tests in two stages. At the first stage, they will estimate their flight performance and applicability for the Indian climate and terrain including high-level airdromes. The second stage scheduled for this autumn will probably take place at test bases of manufacturing countries &#8211; the Indians will compare characteristics of on-board equipment and armament. After flight tests, India is going to bolt out three or four outsiders. The choice from the resulting short list of 2-3 fighters will be made considering many factors. India will take into account the cost and financing structures, amount of technologies transferred, offset programme for compensation deliveries, which should account for at least 50&#37; of the contract price and local production options. 108 of 126 fighters should be assembled and manufactured at a growing rate at Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) enterprises in India. Foreign policy trends will be important, too. It was initially planned that the Indian Air Force will get MMRCA aircraft in 2012. Speaking at the Aero India show, however, Indian Air Force Chief of Staff (this post corresponds to Commanderin- Chief in Russia) Chief Air Marshal Fali Homi said that fighters deliveries would start in 2013 if everything was al right. India&#8217;s Air Force is going to raise the number of its combat squadrons from the current 32-33 (each having 14-18 aircraft) to 39.5 by 2017 and to 42 by 2020. These plans also envisage important modernization programmes, firstly relating to the MiG-29. At the press briefing devoted to the MiG-35 at Aero India 2009, RSK MiG Engineering Center Chief Vladimir Barkovskiy said the company had started fulfilling the modernization contract worth about $1 billion. Six Indian MiGs (four MiG-29s single-seat fighters and two MiG-29UB two-seat combat trainers)
have already arrived in Moscow.

Mr.Barkovskiy said that &#8220;India has now 62 MiG-29 fighters in total&#8221;. Another 56 aircraft will be upgraded at the Indian 11th aircraft maintenance base. &#8220;We have visited this enterprise and concluded that Indian specialists would cope with this task&#8221;, noted the chief of RSK MiG Engineering Center. Well-known Indian newspaper The Times of India announced some other information in its local Bangalore edition on February 13. It reported that India has 69 MiG-29s and all of them should be modernized already by 2011. The contract for upgrading 51 Dassault Mirage 2000 may be signed soon, too. But no doubt that Su-30MKI fighters are the beauty and pride of the Indian Air Force. The contracts for their deliveries and license production totally cost about $8.5 billion. About 100 aircraft have already been put into service, while India totally ordered 230 Su-30MKIs. By the way, the MMRCA project (126 aircraft) costs 41% more than the Su-30MKI one (230 aircraft) given the 1.8 times less number of aircraft.

The military-technical cooperation between Russia (the Soviet Union) and India started as early as 1963 from the contract of the then-advanced MiG-21 fighter. Of course, the 45-year military-technical cooperation between our countries raises

the chances of the MiG-35 in the tender. The Zhuk-AE AFAR radar designed by Fazotron-NIIR and new missile equipment may play the decisive role, too. The Vayu Show Daily issued at Bangalore&#8217;s show reported that the MiG-35&#8217;s armament includes Kh-59MK2 air-to-surface missiles with a range of up to 285 km and 300-kg penetrating or cluster warhead. The missile works by the fire-and-forget principle, has terrain recognition and correlation guidance capability and can engage targets lacking radar, optical and IR signature. The MiG-35 can be also armed with the Kh-38 modular missile that has modifications with laser, active radar and IR homing devices as well as satellite navigation system. The 520-kg missile has a warhead weighing 250 kg. The Kh-59MK2 and Kh-58 are developed by Tactical Missiles Corporation. The MiG- 35&#8217;s air-to-air missiles will be renewed, too. The fighter will get RVV-MD and RVVSD advanced short- and medium-range missiles that outperform the well-known
RVV-AE and R-73.

But India has some reasons not to choose the MiG-35. The main one is that it does not want to put all the eggs in one basket buying foreign military equipment, which is a consistent and firm position. As it was already told, the Su-30MKI is the main aircraft of the Indian Air Force. In these conditions, the expected consolidation of RSK MiG and Sukhoi companies that has already started when Mikhail Pogosyan became their sole chief will not only make Russia the monopoly supplier of combat aircraft to India if it chooses the MiG-35 but will leave no choice even among manufacturers. By the way, two US companies &#8211; Boeing and Lockheed- Martin &#8211; are participating in the tender and the US is not afraid of the so-called internal competition, which Rosoboronexport is actively trying to get rid of.

AFAR and PR 
But there is another side of the problem, which is traditionally underestimated by Russia. It is the PR support of our contract bid. Russia sent only one MiG-35 to the Aero India show held in February this year. At first it seemed to send two fighters but did not manage to prepare the second one, while the US sent there as many as five F-16s. They included two F-16E/F Block 60s of the UAE Air Force and three F-16C/D Block 50s of the US Air Force. Lockheed-Martin offers India a special modification dubbed F-16IN Super Viper, which, however, differs from the UAE&#8217;s F- 16E/F chiefly by the name. But there is a special sense in the name, too! In Russian, Super Viper does not sound very good, but it raises the respects for the fighter and its aggressiveness by the Indians who have a special attitude to poisonous snakes. Index IN also proves that the model was created specially for the client. By the way, Sweden was the first to use this designation offering their Gripen IN. How could we surpass the invasion of Falcons that turned to Super Vipers in Bangalore? Indeed, we have an excellent Strizhi pilot team with six MiG-29s. Why not send them to India to show their skills over the Yelahanka air base? Of course, it is expensive but it is a trifle against $12
billion to be received by the winner.

Another PR solution of Lockheed-Martin was the demonstration flight of India&#8217;s-first individual Olympic champion Abkhinava Bindra in F-16&#8217;s dual cockpit. During the 45-min flight, he even had hold of the control stick. The popularity of the 26-year air rifle shooter can be compared with that of Yuriy Gagarin in the Soviet Union in the 1960&#8217;s. With that, Indian newspapers and even Russian and international mass media using Lockheed-Martin&#8217;s press releases to tell about this advertisement flight forgot that the first India&#8217;s Olympic gold was won by its field hockey team at Moscow 1980 Olympics.

To tell the truth, Russia gave as good as it got, too. A day before Bindra&#8217;s flight, RSK MiG&#8217;s test pilot Mikhail Belyayev piloted the MiG-35 with retired Air Marshal Kharish Masand, who was the chief of the Indian Air Force 28th Squadron, which was the first to get MiG-29s. The

62-year Masand highly appreciated the MiG-35&#8217;s flight performance, &#8220;One can only imagine what younger Indian pilots can do on this aircraft!&#8221; Interestingly, the pretty 30-year Indian journalist Suman Sharma was the first Indian citizen to fly on both the MiG-35 and F-16. So, the score of demonstration flights is 2 to 2, but the US surpassed us by the attention in Indian mass media due to a better choice of a passenger. The agreement of Northrop Grumman with two Indian companies Bharat Electronics and Dynamatic Technologies for manufacturing in Bangalore components for US APG-68(V)-9 radars installed on F-16s was not accidental, too. Though these radars have mechanical scanning and the F-16IN employs the APG-80 AFAR radar of the same producer, one can say that well begun is half done. By this step, the US proved that it is ready to cooperate with Indian electronics
industry.

AFAR equipment plays an important role in the MMRCA. The Indian Air Force stress they want to have this breakthrough technology on delivered fighters very much. The US installs Northrop Grumman APG-80 AFAR radars on F-16E/F fighters of the UAE Air Force and Raytheon APG-79 one &#8211; on F/A-18E/F Block 2 fighters of the US Naval Air Force. These
very radars are offered to India.

The French Rafale can be equipped by a new Thales-made AFAR radar. Sweden also has an AFAR radar on their newgeneration Gripen NG, which can be called the dream of the Indian Air Force meeting all their requirements. Indeed, the Gripen has achieved everything and even more that India has been fruitlessly trying to do for about twenty years developing their own LCA Tejas fighter. But unfortunately, Sweden does not produce its own tranceivers &#8211; the basis of AFAR. To test the technology, Sweden bought US-made tranceivers and combined them with well-reputed blocks of their own PS- 05/A radar. By the way, Fazotron has chosen the same method of combination with tried-and-true blocks. But then the Swedes were disappointed. It turned out that the US did not want to sell tranceivers for series production offering the radar only in block. Thus, Sweden would have to ask the US permission for every export contract. The Swedes did not agree with it and signed a contract for tranceivers with French company Thales. But this had happened before Thales and Dassault received a state order for the development and production of AFAR radar for French Rafale fighters. Later on, Dassault bought a large block of Thales stock thus getting a possibility to influence its decisions. But the most important thing is that the Gripen became the main Rafale&#8217;s rival not only in India, but in Brazil, too. France told Sweden that it would deliver tranceivers only for the test model but not for series ones. So, Swedish designers had only two possible transceiver suppliers left &#8211; Scotland and Russia. In the author&#8217;s opinion repeatedly expressed in his articles for a number of years (he is an expert in the Swedish aircraft and electronics industries) the Russian-Swedish cooperation in this field would have been fully mutually-beneficial. After getting a denial by Russia, Sweden turned to Edinburgh-based company SELEX S&AS UK. At first, this Scottish company was called Ferranti, then &#8211; GECMarconi, after that &#8211; BAE Systems and now, in the era of total globalization, this is a division of Italian holding FINMECCANICA. SELEX has the Vixen AFAR radar, which won tenders for equipping the US Coast Guard HC-130 patrol aircraft and US Customs and Border Service
Cessna Citation.

And what about Eurofighter Typhoon? This company has a unique position relating to the AFAR radar. They are trying to convince Indian Air Force authorities that their fighter&#8217;s Captor mechanical scanning radar is better than expensive and not well-proven AFAR ones. To confirm this position, three Typhoons and chiefs of staff of the German, UK, Italian and Spanish air forces arrived in India. Notably, the Russian MiG-35 did not receive such a support from the Russian Air Force. Europeans noted that 167 Typhoons have already been built and there are firm orders for 707 aircraft, which will load production lines up to 2020. By the way, orders for the F-16 will soon end, while any country wants to have an aircraft still being manufactured in series. The fleet of Typhoons has already amassed 57,000 flight hours &#8211; 10,000 by the German Luftwaffe and 25,000 &#8211; by the Royal Air Force. The main advantage of the EU bid is, perhaps, compensating for the lack of an AFAR radar. The European consortium offered to help India in testing and finishing the long-suffering Tejas including the installation of Typhoon&#8217;s Eurojet EJ200 powerplant on the next Tejas Mk2 version. India is attracted by the reduction of operational costs by unifying engines on the both types of aircraft in service. They also say that the newer Tejas with European engines could be exported to third countries jointly with the Typhoon as light and medium fighters with the same engine. It is not clear which markets are meant, but they are probably represented by poor African states still armed with MiG-21s and F-5s. By the way, the modification of the Russian RD-33 engine can also power Tejas and the latter can be unified with MiG-29K and MiG-35 aircraft. Rosoboronexport&#8217;s press release says &#8220;The development of the Kaveri national aircraft engine for the LCA Tejas light combat aircraft is the main task for India.&#8221; India plans to deliver at least 150 LCA fighters to its Armed Forces. It is the Kaveri that should make this aircraft a multifunctional fighter able to engage ground and aerial targets. Powered by this engine, the Tejas LCA can be used as a deck-based fighter, too. Considering the changed requirements for the engine, Russia said it was ready to participate in the Kaveri programme or upgrade it to the level of an advanced Russian aircraft engine. As for finishing the Kaveri that has already been developed for 20 years, the hero of Pavel Luspekayev in a wonderful movie &#8220;The white sun of the desert&#8221; said &#8220;It will hardly happen&#8230;&#8221; But &#8220;East is a complicated matter&#8221; (a quotation from the same film), so the cooperation with Indian engine manufacturers may raise the MiG-
35&#8217;s chances, too.

Many-sided cooperation 
The cooperation between Russia and India is developing in many directions. The AERO INDIA 2009 airspace show proved that Moscow and Deli have strategic relations in the military-technical sphere. This was repeatedly stressed by Indian Defense Minister Arakkaparambil Kurian Entoni, who said &#8220;Our joint projects on BraMos missiles, 5th-generation combat aircraft and multifunctional transport aircraft have became the forerunners of new heights to be achieved by our countries in the military-technical sphere. India is interested not only to maintain but to strengthen this interaction as well.&#8221; Rosoboronexport considers that at this new stage, the Indian-Russian cooperation remains long-term and mutuallybeneficial. Previously we had only &#8216;sellercustomer&#8217; relations, but now our countries are actively cooperating in the field of joint developments and production. Rosoboronexport, Irkut Research and

Production Enterprise, Ilyushin Aircraft Corporation and Indian corporation HAL are jointly developing the MTA Russian- Indian medium-range transport aircraft initially positioned as a dual-purpose aircraft. It should both meet requirements of the military and have commercial prospects. This project is carried out on technical and financial risks sharing conditions. The new aircraft is to replace obsolete Indian Air Force C-130 and An-12 aircraft. India has already confirmed its plans to buy 45 aircraft with an option for the same number. Russian military sources say Russia is going to acquire at least 100 aircraft by 2025, which is quite enough for the project&#8217;s financial feasibility. Notably, Brazilian company Embraer is planning to create almost the same aircraft. The C390 project is supported by the Brazilian Defense Ministry, besides Embraer aircraft will be based on a successful E190 passenger liner. Brazil has directly told that it wanted to unite efforts on the transport aircraft programme. But Russia and India seem to be unwilling to join efforts with Brazil. The author of this article feels sorry for this unwillingness. The MTA project allowed accumulating a rich experience of implementing joint international projects that will be further used to create combat aircraft, particularly the 5th-generation fighter. According to Indian Air Marshall Fali Homi Major, the Russian-Indian 5th-generation fighter is to make its first flight in 2015 and probably even sooner. This project is being realized according to the intergovernmental agreement on the joint development and production of the 5th-generation fighter signed in October 2007 in Moscow at the 7th meeting of the Russian-Indian Intergovernmental Commission on Military-Technical Cooperation. The advanced aircraft will employ a completely new platform with cutting-edge solutions including stealth technology. The fighter will combine extra maneuverability and supersonic speed, long range and high anti-air defense capability. It will be equipped with advanced communications systems as well as multifunctional intelligence information accumulation equipment with optical, IR, laser and radar sensors. In Bangalore, Indian mass media repeatedly asked when the prototype of the Russian 5th-generation fighter (PAK FA) will make its maiden flight. So, Sukhoi and RSK MiG General Director Mikhail Pogosyan answered that this will happen within a year. Notably, Russia and Brazil have signed a memorandum on military- technical cooperation about a year ago, in which Russia said it was ready to talk with Brazil on the 5th-generation fighter. But nothing has been heard about this project so far. If Russia, India and Brazil start cooperating both on the MTA and PAK FA, Brazil will surely include the Su-35 into their tender. The Su-35 left this Air Force tender last year as it was out of the final short list. The acceptance tests of the new AL-55I engine made by Russia for the HJT-36 Indian combat trainer on order of the HAL corporation have begun following engine testing on the Russian flying platform, which proved its main flight characteristics. Russia and India signed the respective protocol in Moscow on October 16 last year. The next stage allows for the AL-55I&#8217;s certification tests on Indian HJT-36 aircraft. At present, Rosoboronexport is actively helping to organize manufacturing the pilot batch of AL-55Is, their certification and license production in India. Speaking about the results of the show, Chief of Rosoboronexport delegation, Deputy General Director Viktor Komardin said &#8220;We are fully satisfied with the results of AERO INDIA 2009. In Delhi and Bangalore, we have conducted a number of serious marketing events, useful negotiations and meeting. We think the Indian airspace forum is much more important than European ones and we are going to do our best to raise the prestige of the AERO


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## Arun tevar

There r only there a.c in competition according to me & that is rafi,f-18 & 35.All of them have their advantages and disadvantages,let the best win.the F-sollah should not b a favorate to win considering all the odds against it & the grippi is out of question.


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## sensenreason

I feel it will help IAF understand foreign (ie non russian and non french) tech better when they conduct the field trials starting August.

I wonder what stops India or anyone from starting a fake RFP just to evaulate state of the art tech..for instance India could take a decision to buy MIG 35 but still evaluate the others to conduct seemingly aboveboard espionage....

Is this a common practice or just a figment of my imagination....


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## s90

Can anyone tell me how much it will take now for India to select a jet?


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## BSF

> I feel it will help IAF understand foreign (ie non russian and non french) tech better when they conduct the field trials starting August.
> 
> I wonder what stops India or anyone from starting a fake RFP just to evaulate state of the art tech..for instance India could take a decision to buy MIG 35 but still evaluate the others to conduct seemingly aboveboard espionage....
> 
> Is this a common practice or just a figment of my imagination....



You might want to use normal fonts the next time you post...we are not blind you know.



As a matter of fact it is a good point that you make.
Really worth thinking about.



They might have a chosen contender this time (let me say Mig 35) and they might want to test it in combat with other aircraft like F 16, F 18, Rafel and Euro fighter for weakness and other stuff


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## sensenreason

Apologies for the font...am posting after a long time (6 months and made a mistake).

Apart from RFP's to conduct collect info (happens all the time in non-defence pvt sector....) the other point is about this magic number of 126 a/c's. Seems like someone has made some very exact calculations about the number of the planes needed beforehand...

Why not 150 or 200. That seems a little more conventional and in some ways professional....


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## sancho

s90 said:


> Can anyone tell me how much it will take now for India to select a jet?


How much time? Trials should be ended by aug next year and the final decision should come by end of the year, or beginning of 2011. First aircrafts expected in 2013/14, pretty much the same time when LCA MK 2 production starts also. 


sensenreason said:


> the other point is about this magic number of 126 a/c's. Seems like someone has made some very exact calculations about the number of the planes needed beforehand...
> 
> Why not 150 or 200. That seems a little more conventional and in some ways professional


MRCA was intended to replace some Mig 21s, because LCA was delayed and couldn't replace all of them alone and in time. 
So which Mig 21 could they replace? 
We know that the first MRCA squads are expected around 2015 and then the licence production will start also. That clearly could take till the year 2020/25 and the only Mig 21 that are upgraded for such a service life are the Bisons. Reports says around 125 Bis was upgraded to Bison standart, which confirms the number again.
What about the older Mig 21?
Latest reports says around 150 will be phased out in the next 2 years (logicaly the oldest and least capable). Wiki list of aircraft of the Indian Air Force and bharat-rakshak Aircraft Fleet Strength confirms around 54 FL second line fighter and around 81 M/MF ground attack aircrafts as the oldest. 

List of aircraft of the Indian Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Bharat Rakshak :: Indian Air Force - Aircraft Fleet Strength

But to keep the main squad numbers only the M/MF must be replaced soon and this could be done by nearly the same number of LCA MK1 and Su 30 MKI from Russia, that IAF has ordered. The Bis should be in service till LCA MK2 production starts (around 2015) unless the number of problems rise.
So the numbers could be calculated before, cause these are the least numbers of aircraft MRCA must replace, no matter if we chose the cheapest, or the most expensive one!


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## SSGPA1

It looks like that India will buy the F-18 jets.

**********************************

The US Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton, on a visit to India, said the two sides had agreed an "end-use monitoring" accord. 

This aims to help the US ensure that its military technology is not transferred to other countries. 

Mrs Clinton also held talks with Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh. 

During Monday's meeting, Mr Singh accepted an invitation from Mrs Clinton to visit the US in November, officials said. 

The end-use monitoring agreement was announced in a joint news conference between Mrs Clinton and the Indian Foreign Minister SM Krishna. 

*End-use agreements are required under US law for weapons sales. *

*India is seeking to buy fighter aircraft and nuclear reactors - deals that are expected to generate multi-billion dollar contracts, for which several US companies are bidding. *

India also announced on Monday that it had approved sites where American companies will build two nuclear power plants. 

It is part of a civilian nuclear deal signed by the US and India last year. 

Mrs Clinton is spending three full days in India. She departs on Tuesday. 

Correspondents say Mrs Clinton's visit aims to show the US is committed to broadening its ties with Delhi. 

Addressing students at Delhi University ahead of the talks, Mrs Clinton said the US wanted to "deepen our strategic understanding" with India and find more common ground. 

Mrs Clinton also held talks with the leader of the opposition, Lal Krishna Advani. 

India's relations with neighbouring Pakistan were also expected to feature prominently in discussions. 

Our correspondent says that publicly Mrs Clinton has insisted that what Pakistan and India do is completely up to them. 

But he says everyone in Delhi is clear it was pressure from Washington that pushed the countries to hold talks in Egypt last week. 

Pakistan-India relations dominated Mrs Clinton's visit to Mumbai on Saturday, in the wake of attacks on the city last November that left more than 170 people dead. 



Clinton: "I have seen a real commitment on the part of Pakistan"
On Sunday, talks in Delhi focused on climate change, which remains a sensitive subject for developing countries such as India and China, which have so far refused to commit to carbon emissions cuts in a new treaty. 

Mrs Clinton also sought to assure India the US would not try to impose conditions that might affect India's economic growth. 

But Indian Environment Minister Jairam Ramesh said his government could not accept targets that would limit economic growth. 

India argues the US must do more as it has been historically to blame for the emissions. 

Mrs Clinton later told reporters she was optimistic a deal on climate change could be reached. 

The key date for climate change is December - when a summit in Copenhagen will look to forge a new international treaty that will replace the Kyoto Protocol, which expires in 2012. 

http://http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/8158489.stm


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## Maritimer

SSGPA1 said:


> It looks like that India will buy the F-18 jets.
> 
> **********************************
> 
> *End-use agreements are required under US law for weapons sales. *
> 
> *India is seeking to buy fighter aircraft and nuclear reactors - deals that are expected to generate multi-billion dollar contracts, for which several US companies are bidding. *



We have to wait and see. Similar statements were made last week about Rafale and Areva nuclear reactors, when PM Singh visited France. Speculations were made about MiG-35 and more Russian nuke reactors last month during the BRIC summit meeting.

India's defence and nuclear market is set for a massive expansion in the coming decade and the great powers are wooing hard to get a piece of the pie.


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## Burninspice

*Typhoon in IAF? *
Hindol Sengupta, UTVi
Published on Mon, Jul 20, 2009 at 20:07 IST 


MUNICH: India is shopping for around 130 fighter jets, spending around $10 billion in what is considered to be one of the biggest boosts to the country's air defences. One of the main contenders is Europe's Eurofighter, UTVi went to see the plane. Eurofighter Typhoon jets might be in-charge of all India's air defence system in the next decade.

Built by a consortium of Britain, Germany, Spain and Italy, the Eurofighter is expected to take over most of the NATO policing duties in the next few years.

Col Andreas Pfeiffer, Luftwaffe, said, "The Eurofighter is one of the most advanced fighters we have ever had."

The field trials for jet deal later this year and the contenders apart from the Eurofighter include Russia's MiG-35, Sweden's Gripen, Lockheed Martin's F-16, Boeing's F/A-18 and France's Rafale. Most experts believe that the final battle will be between the Americans and the Europeans. Europeans say that they are willing to totally transfer military technology of the jet to India which is not possible with America. But the Americans are pushing this deal as the big move forward in Indo-US ties post the civil nuclear deal.

Matthias Schmidlin, Eurofighter campaign director, said, "The Eurofighter is the beginning of the greater Indo-Europe ties."

The Eurofighter's most recent task was air surveillance for the World Economic Forum at Davos in January. Among the countries that have bought the fighter, apart from the four nations that built it, are Austria and Saudi Arabia and in a world of economic downturn, this deal will come a huge boost to the industry of the country that wins it.


i Cannot post the link Cause this is my first post on PDF


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## RPK

Burninspice said:


> *Typhoon in IAF? *
> Hindol Sengupta, UTVi
> Published on Mon, Jul 20, 2009 at 20:07 IST
> 
> 
> i Cannot post the link Cause this is my first post on PDF



You can post the link as text it automatically converts into links


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## Burninspice

Sorry i Can't

The following errors occurred with your submission:

1. You are only allowed to post URLs to other sites after you have made 15 posts or more.

It is form UTVi News site also Yester day there is a special program in UTVi News channel regarding the same!


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## SQ8

Are the french out or still in?
AFM says they are out. But the french say they haven't heard of it.
Whats going on?? Isnt it about time somebody gets kicked out??


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## sancho

santro said:


> Are the french out or still in?
> AFM says they are out. But the french say they haven't heard of it.
> Whats going on?? Isnt it about time somebody gets kicked out??


All 6 contenders are cleared for the trials, which will take 1 year. After that 2 - 3 will be shortlisted.


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## SQ8

Seems AFM have started hopping into rumors.. 
And to a certain extent.. in an effort to widen their reader base.. juicing up their stories.


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## Brahm0s

i wish india go for typhoon. India shouldn't look which jet fighter costly or cheap. They should go for best. My 1st choise is typhoon and than its mig-35.


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## sancho

Brahm0s said:


> i wish india go for typhoon. India shouldn't look which jet fighter costly or cheap. They should go for best. My 1st choise is typhoon and than its mig-35.


The costs are only a minor requirement I guess, otherwise we would decide for Mig 29, or Mirage before. Those were cheaper in cost and maintenance than all the new contenders. 
Imo the package of political benefits,ToT, capabilities of the fighter and at last the costs (in this order) will decide who will win. 
EF is a great fighter, no doubt about that! But it causes too many delays it self (production, a2g capabilities, AESA radar), which also was reasons that it lost the Singapore competition although it didn't lost a single air combat. So without solving these problems it won't be a good choice for us.


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## Screaming Skull

> *Dassault will send two Rafales equipped with the new generation active electronically scanned array (AESA) radars for flight trials to India in September*, the head of military aircraft, Eric Trappier said.
> 
> "India is a marathon, not a sprint," he said, referring to India's international tender for 126 medium range multi-role combat aircraft.
> 
> Dassault Seeks Tighter Cost Control at Thales - Defense News



Guess that settles it then. The Rafales are comin in September and they will be equipped with AESA!

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## sancho

Screaming Skull said:


> Guess that settles it then. The Rafales are comin in September and they will be equipped with AESA!


Which will give them an advantage against EF and Grippen, cause both haven't an AESA ready now. The questsion is only how capable the RBE 2 AESA is compared to the US and the Russian?
Does anybody have some specs (radar range, number of targets that can be tracked at a time...) of the AESA radars in the competition?


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## Screaming Skull

> *Were taking Eurofighters flown by the German Air Force for the trials. And the idea is to conduct weapon trials in the United Kingdom using their aircraft. This will give the Indian Air Force a chance to interact with two other forces using the Eurofighter,* said Bernhard Gerwert, CEO of EADS Military Air Systems. He was talking to Express on the sidelines of the Royal Air Tattoo, an air show involving NATO air forces at Fairford, London.
> 
> *We see India as a partner rather than just as another prospective market. We want your country to play a role in future EADS programmes.*
> 
> *Were open to the possibility of India becoming a manufacturing hub for our future exports, Gerwert said.
> 
> As a first step EADS will launch its aviation research centre in Bangalore.*
> 
> *We have already entered into a memorandum of understanding (MoU) with L&T. EADS will recruit 200 engineers in the next two years who will work on avionics and sensors,* he said adding that the manufacture of certain critical components could be totally offset to India.
> 
> *These parts will come directly to our assembly line like other components reaching us from partner countries UK, Spain or Italy. This will also give India a chance to showcase its technological prowess in handling complex technology,* he pointed out.
> 
> EADS has also decided to support Indias effort to fly an indigenous Light Combat Aircraft.
> 
> The LCA team recently visited Munich and held discussions with EADS to identify possible grounds where the two firms could meet to support the LCA programme. Indias LCA is facing cost and time overruns following a host of technical and technological issues.
> 
> *According to Gerwert, EADS will help in LCA flight evaluation and tests. We are ready to provide engine technology which no other country will be ready to. The benefits we plan to give India are unparalleled,* he said.
> 
> But according to IAF sources, Eurofighter is facing a tough flight plan as it costs more than its competitors.
> 
> There are several positives like a modern airframe, avionics etc. We need to wait for the field trials to be over before any conclusion can be drawn,



http://www.expressbuzz.com/edition/story.aspx?Title=EADS+looks+for+an+edge&artid=dekFxU7OQKM=&SectionID=oHSKVfNWYm0=&MainSectionID=oHSKVfNWYm0=&SectionName=VfE7I/Vl8os=&SEO=

Wow!!!!!

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## Born In The USA

Go for Eurofighter over F18 SH. Eurofighter is the best choice.


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## sancho

Screaming Skull said:


> EADS looks for an edge
> 
> Wow!!!!!


So this confirms a partnership on EF right? What engine techs for LCA is he talking about?


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## sabir

it can be extended a bit ..........one country can select a plane and give the orders to the supplier and then continues a never ending evaluation process(ultimately choosing the one already ordered for).......to get the the ordered aircrafts earlier than its rival countries can anticipate..(in that case Rafale has more chance as it was rumoured to be out of contest).

Anyway, I feel the number should be distributed between two vendors to save time for induction (already a lot of delay just to make the selection)...as total number might be increased to 200....Eurofighter and Super-Hornet. It may be little difficult as IAF has experience in only Russian and French aircrafts....but it will have knowledge about western technologies.


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## Jako

Sabir,ultimately it is india in which bulk of the jets would be manufactured.....so two vendors doesnt really mean quick iduction time here,infact time taken may get larger,coz in that case we need to build up infrastructure and train workers for two different projects/fighters!.....also we already have too many platforms in our fighter fleet,two vendors thus may not be an intelligent option......hope you get my point....regards

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Screaming Skull

Jako said:


> Sabir,ultimately it is india in which bulk of the jets would be manufactured.....so two vendors doesnt really mean quick iduction time here,infact time taken may get larger,coz in that case we need to build up infrastructure and train workers for two different projects/fighters!.....also we already have too many platforms in our fighter fleet,two vendors thus may not be an intelligent option......hope you get my point....regards



Spot on! The IAF has clarified on several occasions that a split order is not in the interest of the IAF or the manufacturing agence, HAL. But, I won't be surprised if we go for a split order. Then, it will be a political decision against the interests of the IAF.


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## Screaming Skull

sancho said:


> So this confirms a partnership on EF right? What engine techs for LCA is he talking about?



Well the relationship that we have with EADS right now can not be termed as a partnership as yet. There is a certain cooperation with EADS which is not very cozy at the moment. The point being, EADS will open up fully and cooperate only if it has something substantial to gain with its association with the LCA programme. For, that we will have to give them either the engine contract or the MMRCA contract. This is all part of the deal!

Coming back to your second question, I am guessing that the engine tech mentioned in the report has to do with the ToT with regards to the EJ-200 engine for LCA mark2 or the EF as MMRCA winner. Essentially, they are clarifying that they will offer us much more than GE-F414 in terms of performance as well as tech.


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## sabir

Jako said:


> Sabir,ultimately it is india in which bulk of the jets would be manufactured.....so two vendors doesnt really mean quick iduction time here,infact time taken may get larger,coz in that case we need to build up infrastructure and train workers for two different projects/fighters!.....also we already have too many platforms in our fighter fleet,two vendors thus may not be an intelligent option......hope you get my point....regards


Thank u.........I really missed d point that bulk of the aircrafts will be manufactured in india.....Hope our politicians r not short-sighted like me. Mr Skull is quite right.


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## sabir

but I feel Monopoly of DRDO in Indian defence industry will not sustain for very long as private players ( like Tata boeing) r also entering the field. in that case we may be abale to afford manufacturing different models of aircrafts simultaneusly in the country. but problem of IAF to induct them will be the ultimate concern. anyway competition from private entity will eventually increase the efficiency level in DRDO and better management of project.


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## sancho

A very interesting article about the Rafale!

Avionics Magazine :: Serious Squall

Some important points:


> Designed from the outset as a multi-role, low-observable combat aircraft with a diminutive radar cross section





> The types of missions assigned to the Rafale range from combat air-interdiction, including quick reaction alert and round-the-clock air defense, to ground attack and sea strikes, to deep nuclear strike missions with the MBDA nuclear-tipped ASMP-A cruise missile





> The Rafale F3 not only integrates the largest and most modern range of sensors, it increases their efficiency through multi-sensor data fusion, allowing the aircraft to become a key element of a wider Network Centric Warfare system.
> 
> In this regard, Rafale crews, along with French Army Sperwer tactical UAV crews, this past winter developed a series of new procedures for launching the AASM rocket-bomb. The bomb is programmed in flight at the last moment from real-time reconnaissance coordinates of ground targets spotted by the Sperwer UAV flying at low altitude forward of a Rafale strike party.





> The present radar air-to-air modes include long-range search; multi target track and engagement; air combat modes; Non-Cooperative Target Recognition (NCTR); and look down/shoot down functions. In air-to-air mode, the RBE2 gives a tracking range beyond 60 nautical miles against a 30-square-foot target, with detection ranges up to 75 nautical miles. The radar can track and prioritize up to 40 targets simultaneously and engage up to eight with Mica, and soon Meteor, air-to-air missiles.





> The efficiency of Spectra notably was demonstrated in 2008 at the Red Flag exercise at Nellis Air Force Base, Nevada, where during all sorties the Rafale escaped SAM missile threats. This followed a successful demonstration at the NATO MACE electronic warfare campaign in Europe.


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## Screaming Skull

*MMRCA trials to begin in Bangalore next week​*


> India's quest to buy 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) will shift gear when the flight trials of the six global contenders will begin in Bangalore next week with *US major Boeing's warplane F/A-18 being the first contender.*
> 
> *"F/A-18 will be the first contender to arrive in India for the trails that will begin in Bangalore next week,"* top IAF officers said here today.





> *After Bangalore, all contending aircraft will move to Leh for high altitude trials and to Jaisalmer for summer trials.* "We are optimistic that the trails on Indian soil and conditions of all the six aircraft competing for the deal *will be completed before April end next year,"*





> "As per the trial schedule, the first phase involved training of Indian pilots on these competing aircraft in the country of origin. The second phase is the flight trials on Indian soil and airspace. The third phase would be test of specialist weapons that the manufacturers would provide on the aircraft in the country of their choice," they said.
> 
> *A two-pilot team would test each of the aircraft, as there is a likelihood of overlap of the flight trial schedule of the six aircraft*, the IAF officers said.
> 
> "The idea is to complete the trials as soon as possible and hence *we got four pilots trained on these competing aircraft*,"


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## Arun tevar

sancho said:


> A very interesting article about the Rafale!
> 
> Avionics Magazine :: Serious Squall
> 
> Some important points:



Sancho,the above post surely indicates that the rafael is a grt package at offer.But as the competion is stiffening and all the competitors r losening up & offering more to ensure an edge over the other,its deficult to predict the best option.Lets wait for the trials.......r.&.p.


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## Arun tevar

sancho said:


> A very interesting article about the Rafale!
> 
> Avionics Magazine :: Serious Squall
> 
> Some important points:



Sancho,the above post surely indicates that the rafael is a grt package at offer. But as the competion is stiffening and all the competitors r losening up & offering more to ensure an edge over the other,its becoming difficult to predict the best option.Lets wait for the trials.......r.&.p.


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## sancho

Arun tevar said:


> Sancho,the above post surely indicates that the rafael is a grt package at offer.But as the competion is stiffening and all the competitors r losening up & offering more to ensure an edge over the other,its deficult to predict the best option.Lets wait for the trials.......r.&.p.


Sure the trials will show how good the fighters really are, but the article only confirmed my opinon, that the Rafale is the best aircraft for us!
The capability of doing a2g missions without a single loss through ground targets, carrying nuclear payloads, installing Kaveri engine, very good defense aids, situational awareness, a possibility for our aircraft carriers, using of French, European and US weapons, good performance in a2a and a2g, the offer of full ToT, radar source codes , no restrictions and the good experiences we had with France and Mirage 2k, are advantages that nearly no other contender can offer in this combined way!
If the decision is not political, I don't see how we can't take the Rafale to serve between LCA and MKI.


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## Arun tevar

sancho said:


> Sure the trials will show how good the fighters really are, but the article only confirmed my opinon, that the Rafale is the best aircraft for us!
> The capability of doing a2g missions without a single loss through ground targets, carrying nuclear payloads, installing Kaveri engine, very good defense aids, situational awareness, a possibility for our aircraft carriers, using of French, European and US weapons, good performance in a2a and a2g, the offer of full ToT, radar source codes , no restrictions and the good experiences we had with France and Mirage 2k, are advantages that nearly no other contender can offer in this combined way!
> If the decision is not political, I don't see how we can't take the Rafale to serve between LCA and MKI.



The only a.c that can b truly said to b operational ready is rafael and f-18.But in our nation its the political decision that will overshadow the stratigic aspect.


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## sudhir007

Some useful information about EF

BAE: We're Set To Weather a Downturn - Defense News

Eurofighter Tranche 3A Product Deal Signed | AVIATION WEEK


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## sancho

sudhir007 said:


> Some useful information about EF
> 
> BAE: We're Set To Weather a Downturn - Defense News
> 
> Eurofighter Tranche 3A Product Deal Signed | AVIATION WEEK





> However, Quentin Davies, the U.K. minister for defense equipment and support, signaled *London may not participate in Tranche 3B*...
> ...The first Tranche 3A aircraft is to be delivered in early 2013. The first *Tranche 3B aircraft would arrive in 2016 and production would cease in 2017, although that timeline is likely to be extended*....
> ...Moreover, *a study* to fit an active electronically scanned array radar on the fighter is due to be completed this year. That will help define a suitable upgrade roadmap. Although Casolini says the technology is mature, he suggests that *fielding such a radar before 2013 would be difficult.*


That sadly means more delays and funding problems, a fully developed EF only by 2016, or later, first AESA only by 2013 and who knows when exports countries will get them?
Seems like they could be out of the competition as fast as in Singapore and still for the same reasons (less developed, too many delays).


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## Mig-29

Eurofighter sweetens its India offer

With the four-nation Eurofighter consortium facing the uncomfortable reality of dwindling orders at home, Indias tender for 126 medium fighters, worth some $11 billion, is now crucial. So, Eurofighter has reworked some of its most fundamental tenets and structures, to appear more appealing to India.Next Friday, Eurofighter boss Bernhard Gerwert will fly into Delhi to offer a new sweetener to the ministry of defence: if India chooses the Eurofighter, it can become a full-fledged manufacturing partner, the first outsider to crack a tightly-interwoven four-country manufacturing chain.The consortium that developed the Eurofighter  comprising the UK, Germany, Italy and Spain  had decided on a unique manufacturing structure. Each part of the Eurofighter is manufactured in a different country; e.g. the right wing is made in Spain, the left wing in Italy. After that, all four partners assemble their own aircraft, bringing the parts together from the plants where they are manufactured.


This EU-style compromise distributed manufacturing jobs (100,000 jobs in 400 companies) amongst the four partners, while creating a mutual dependency.

If India becomes the fifth Eurofighter partner, it will manufacture complete assemblies  say, as a random example, the front fuselage and tail fins  for every new Eurofighter across the world. That will include fighters for the air forces of the UK, Germany, Spain, Italy, Austria and Saudi Arabia. In addition, Switzerland, Japan, Romania, Greece and Turkey, which are currently evaluating the Eurofighter, could also be on that list.

Kicking off its India campaign in early 2008, Eurofighter had suggested that India could play a major role in the programme, even using the word, partnership. But that was never elaborated; only now will India unambiguously be offered a share of the manufacture. All four European partners have agreed to forgo a part of their work share to bring India in.

An order like Indias is badly needed. Earlier this year, a budget-strapped British Ministry of Defence (MoD) tried to pull out of buying its contracted share of 88 fighters from the latest batch (called Tranche 3). Eventually the UK honoured its commitments only because default would have cost London billions of Euros in penalties. The other Eurofighter partners are equally cash-strapped; all have jointly agreed to cut back on their orders for now.

In contrast to the gloom in Europe, the future in India looks rosy. EADS  Eurofighters major shareholder  has enjoyed notable success in penetrating the Indian market. Early this year, EADS signed a $20 million contract to help resolve persistent niggles in Indias Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) programme. US companies Boeing and Lockheed Martin were ruled out of that bid by Washingtons unwillingness to grant permissions (called Technical Assistance Agreements). EADS points to the LCA consultancy as a major victory that highlighted the comparative ease of doing high-tech business with Europe.


Buoyed by the LCA consultancy, EADS is now focusing on the $600 million tender  floated by the MoD on 17 July  for supplying 99 fighter engines for Indias single-engine LCA. Eurojet, an EADS subsidiary, has offered EJ200 engines, which power the twin-engine Eurofighter. The rival engine is the General Electric GE-414, which powers Eurofighters big rival, the twin-engine Boeing F/A-18. Getting the engine selected, both rivals believe, is a sure path towards getting the fighter selected as well.

ASIAN DEFENCE: Eurofighter sweetens its India offer

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## sudhir007

F-18s, F-16s racing to reach Bangalore for trials - Bangalore - City - NEWS - The Times of India

F-18s and F-16s. The US fighter aircraft are in a neck and neck race to reach Bangalore for commencement of test trials by the IAF. The 
trials, to begin in the next three weeks, are a matter of pride for Bangalore as it is one among three locations selected, the other two being Leh and Jaisalmer. IAF will purchase 126 new fighter aircraft. 

Both aircraft had come in as recently as October 2008 for Aero India and were slugging it out even then for public attention. Stationed side by side, the aircraft competed in the sorties they flew and in the access they lent to the public, aerospace experts and media. 

As things stand, Boeing's F-18 will fly into Bangalore ahead of the F-16IN for the trials. The F-18 will be the super hornet version, favourite of the US Navy. The F/A-18E is a one-seater, while the F/A-18F is a two-seater. In the US, the super hornet production is expected to continue through 2015.Manufactured by Boeing IDS, the super hornets are aircraft designed with just a flip of the switch to fly both air-to-air missions (fighter) and air-to-ground missions (attack). 

While the display of its frontline fighter is itself a statement about changing Indo-US relations, Boeing is upbeat about long-term R&D collaboration and technology transfer projects, unthinkable even a year ago. "We do have long-term plans. We are looking at research in breakthrough technology with the premier scientific institution in the country, the IISc. We will also look at defence R&D," Chris Chadwick, vice-president, Global Strike Systems, Boeing IDS, told TOI. 

The F-16s from Lockheed Martin will be the IN version said to be the latest in the F-16 stables. Lockheed is flying in a specialized pilot and flight engineer for demos. "A cockpit simulator is being brought for familiarization with electronics and overall atmosphere of the F-16 cockpit," Lockheed representatives told TOI. 

The latest version of the F-16 incorporates the advanced avionics, stealth and other critical systems of our F-22 and the F-35 jets, the only two fifth generation fighters currently flying. Lockheed believes F-16 is the fastest path for the IAF to the fifth-generation fighter. India and Russia are currently engaged in joint design of a fifth generation fighter but its production is at least a decade away. 
The IAF needs new jets to replace its fast-depleting fleet of Soviet-era MiG-series jets.


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## sancho

sudhir007 said:


> The latest version of the F-16 incorporates the advanced avionics, *stealth and other critical systems of our F-22 and the F-35 jets, the only two fifth generation fighters currently flying. Lockheed believes F-16 is the fastest path for the IAF to the fifth-generation fighter.* India and Russia are currently engaged in joint design of a fifth generation fighter but its production is at least a decade away.
> The IAF needs new jets to replace its fast-depleting fleet of Soviet-era MiG-series jets.


I didn't saw a internal weapon bay, or a stealthy designed airframe on the F16s that attend AI 09 and what other *critical systems* of F22 and F35 should it have??? Only the radar could have some techs related to F35 radar and we definitely won't get ToT of it.


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## sancho

Different competition, but the requirements and offers seems to be similar, so the resutlt there could be also interesting for us.

*US offers technology to win Brazil fighter deal: officials*


> Accompanied in Brasilia by President Barack Obama's national security advisor, Jim Jones, they said *the technology transfer was part of a final gambit to try to persuade Brazil's air force to buy 36 new combat aircraft...*
> ...Carter said: "*We want to have a technology relationship with Brazil that gets deeper and deeper with the time*. This is just the first step."
> 
> The offer appeared an attempt to blunt competing bids from France's Dassault, which was putting forward its advanced Rafale fighter, and Sweden's Saab, which was proposing its yet-to-be-built Gripen NG.
> 
> The Rafale, which has stealth-like technology and cutting-edge cockpit interfaces and threat detection, was seen as Brazil's favored choice, largely because France was offering full transfer of technology -- the key demand in the tender.
> 
> Saab, too, has promised to share knowhow with Brazil -- even though the Gripen's engines were US-designed and therefore subject to US foreign military sales authorization.
> 
> *It was unclear what technology the United States was prepared to share from the F/A-18, which was the oldest model aircraft on offer*, having been flying since 1980.



AFP: US offers technology to win Brazil fighter deal: officials


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## Gabbar

Race Begins Next Week for $12B India Warjet Deal​
NEW DELHI - India will start fighter jet trials *next week *as the world's six top aerospace giants vie for a $12 billion military contract, an official said Aug. 7.

The trials for what will be the world's most lucrative fighter contract in more than a decade will begin in Bangalore, India's space research and aeronautical industry hub. 
The assessment is due to continue for almost a year before New Delhi makes its choice from the six companies, the official said.

*Boeing will be the first to take part when it displays its F/A-18 "Superhornet," the official said, adding that a team of U.S.-based aviation experts would be present in the southern city for the trials.*

Lockheed Martin of the U.S. and Europe's EADS will be among the other five firms descending on Bangalore. 

The official, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said the precise date for the start of trials will depend on weather conditions.

India is on a spending spree to update its largely Soviet-era weapons system and is looking at buying 126 fighter jets.

After Boeing, Lockheed Martin is next in line to showcase its F-16 to the technology-hungry Indian Air Force, the official said.

The European Aeronautic Defence and Space Company (EADS) will offer its Typhoon Eurofighter, while Russia is seeking to sell the MiG-35 and MiG-29.

French Dassault, which constructs the Mirage, has put forward its Rafale aircraft as a contender.

In April, India said it would not buy the Rafale because it was too expensive. But within weeks, New Delhi said, without elaborating, the French firm had re-joined the race. 

The line-up is completed by Gripen, part of Sweden's Saab.

*Industry sources have said Lockheed Martin and Boeing have emerged as front-runners.*


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## ironman

*We will shift workload from Germany to India in the area of avionics​*Posted: Mon, Aug 10 2009. 11:30 PM IST

*Bernhard Gerwert, CEO of military air systems, EADS Defence and Security, the largest stock holder in the Eurofighter Typhoon, one of the five aircrafts going to flight trials this year, talks to Mint​*
Anil Padmanabhan and Rahul Chandran

New Delhi: One of the largest defence purchases in recent times, the 126 aircraft purchase order from the Indian Air Force, is reaching the final stages of the a long drawn out tender process, with flight trials of the five aircraft set to start this month. Mints Anil Padmanabhan and Rahul Chandran spoke to Bernhard Gerwert, chief executive officer of military air systems, EADS Defence and Security, the largest stock holder in the Eurofighter Typhoon, one of the five aircrafts going to flight trials this year, when he was in New Delhi. Edited Excerpts:

*I saw some reports saying that the Eurofighter is willing to sweeten the deal in the Indian context, and offer a manufacturing facility. True? *

The reason of my visit here is a little bit broader than just to make a statement regarding what we are doing here. The main reason why I am here in the last few days is to get a feeling for where we are in the campaign and that is why I spent three days here. On the one side of course, to have the discussion with my own people, directly placed here in Delhi and Bangalore, but as well to have a lot of discussions with the customer, feeling where we are in this campaign because you have to take into account the next phase: We have to go into flight trials. And to go for flight trials is a very expensive journey. Coming to India with two, three fighters, doing the flight trials in Europe and before doing so, Id like to get a little grip on where we are. And I have to say, I have a good feeling.

*And what made you get a good feeling? Is it something you offered?*

I could not offer something now in addition to what we already offered. We submitted our bid in April last year. And the first target was to be invited for the flight trials and now we are invited.

You can see that as a huge success but all the other competitors have been successful as well. So it is by far not enough. But we talked a lot about what is the next phase. What is the outcome of the flight trials. How the flight trials would be evaluated and so on.

I strongly believe, due to the discussions I had the last two days, that the customer and the decisive people are fully aware that the evaluation of such a mission, is a huge challenge. Because they have to take into account very different dimensions, not only performance of an aircraft but the performance of our bid and that is a challenge of course. They have to judge the performance of the aircraft, they have to evaluate the mission capabilities of the aircraft, they have to take into account the technology of such an aircraft and not forget they must be very cautious about what the customer really needs and what the customer wants. 

Finally, it is an issue of national security. Its the security of this country and of the soldiers of this country. And all these dimensions we discussed with people in the last few days and I have a feeling that a lot of people here understand these dimensions. So its not just technical evaluations and tick in the boxes.

The request for technology transfer, you can see that in completely different dimensions. For instance, look at the strategic partnership, which we offer to the Indian customer and the Indian industry. EADS Defence & Security just launched a joint venture with Larsen & Toubro. What are we planning to do? We will transfer technology from Germany to India. We will transfer workload from Germany to India. The products which will be produced in the first step of this joint venture are not related to the Eurofighter. However, we can use this technology later for the Eurofighter.

Another dimension is the fact that we have signed the support contract for the LCA. Its not only that we are doing the support for the LCA. We are also hiring engineers in India and we will employ these engineers in our EADS/Airbus engineering center in Bangalore. What will happen? We will transfer a kind of technology or knowledge to Bangalore. We will employ, in the next two years, roughly 200 engineers in this engineering centre that is related to the defence aerospace business. In reality, we will shift workload from Germany to India in the area of avionics.

What is behind this? We prepare ourselves and we prepare the Indian industry that they are already prepared in a very early stage to absorb the needed technology for the Eurofighter. Why is that so important? We are now coming to the partnership. Look at the aircraft with a lifecycle of 30 years, 40 years, 50 years which has started its life a few years ago. Then you also have upgrades for the next 20-30 years and then you will have additional capability enhancements.

*So you are differentiating between the partnership you have in India and the existing partnerships in Europe with other member countries?*

Yes. It must be different because I would like to point out that India has the great opportunity to become our industrial partner. However, it cannot be that we say Okay. India could become a fifth partner and then we divide everything through five instead of four. Of course this is not possible, let us be clear among ourselves.

*The presence of other European nations like Frances Rafale which is also bidding. You have Airbus where you are collaborators and you have the Eurofighter where you are competitors. Does that affect in any way?*

No.Rafale is a competitor for Eurofighter and that is the case in India and that is the case in other countries as well. Rafalethe company Dassaultis not a partner of the Eurofighter programme, so its a competitor like other competitors as well.

The Americans have the same. They have Lockheed and then Boeing.

*I believe the UK has cut back its orders from 88 aircraft to 40?*

No. Maybe you are aware that the Eurofighter programme between the four nations was a so-called umbrella contract of 620 aircraft. We signed this contract of 620 aircraft for the four nations in 1998. This contract is split into slices - Tranche 1, Tranche 2 and Tranche 3. Now we come to Tranche 3. We split Tranche 3 with 236 aircraft due to financial problems of one or the other country, into so-called Tranche 3A and Tranche 3B. The full number of Tranche 3 for the UK is 88 aircraft and for Germany 68. In Tranche 3A, the UK is getting 40 aircraft and Germany 31aircraft. The rest will be negotiated later in Tranche 3B. That is what we have agreed. Therefore the umbrella contract of 620 aircraft for the UK, Germany, Spain and Italy is still valid.

*The weather conditions in India are very different from Europe. So how does the Eurofighter stack up in these peculiar weather conditions?*

The best answer is that we sold 72 Eurofighter to Saudi Arabia. And if you look into the weather conditions in Saudi Arabia, are they so different to India? On the heat, I dont think so. Maybe its even more hot in Saudi Arabia. The other issue is the height. I am not afraid of that at all. I am quite sure, there is not any issue regarding the performance of the Eurofighter.

Looking at the official reports of the exercises that have been done by the four European air forces in exercises with other air forces, in all cases that I know in the last two years, the Eurofighter was the winner. All other aircraft were the losers. They beat everything.

*Do you get the feeling that all other things being equal, considerations other than just the quality of the aircraft may come into the equation?*

You cannot just take the product, take a list and tick in the boxes. For such decisions, what kind of mission, what kind of threat, what does it mean regarding independence, what does it mean regarding reliability, so many topics must be taken into consideration. And I have a feeling that is understood. And to be honest, if I wouldnt have the feeling that it is understood, I would have this nice cup of coffee and go home and would not spent millions of dollars for the flight trials.

The confidence, which I am getting, is mostly because I am getting a lot of questions. When you are getting more and more intelligent questions, you will say: Hey, these guys know what they are doing.

We are sometimes criticized that Eurofighter is not produced by one company but of a consortium. Different companies are involved, even companies which are competitors. Is that good or is that bad? If you talk about the involvement of several companies, I can assure you that we are used to work in international cooperation. Whats the difference, if we do it now with four companies or five or six? Already today, we are manufacturing one wing in Italy and the other in Spain and we assemble it together in Germany. We are used to work in international partnerships and India is invited to join us

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## Brahm0s

i wish india chooses typhoon. No matter what other jet fighters are the typhoon the best. Even F-22 pilot flown Typhoon and said its big similar to F-22. He said Typhoon 2nd best jet fighter after F-22. India should pick typhoon. Doesnt matter whats the cost. Typhoon would chill the spine of enemy. i wish india picks typhoon. My 2nd pick would be french rafael. 3rd would be russian mig-35.


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## Spitfighter

Any idea when they'll make their choice? 

I hope its this year, we need to upgrade our fleet ASAP.


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## ironman

*Strategic considerations may influence MMRCA deal​*12 Aug 2009, 07:30 HRS IST
STAFF WRITER 20:56 HRS IST

New Delhi, Aug 11 (PTI) Ahead of the flight trials of six contenders for India's USD 10-billion medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) contract this month, strategic considerations may influence government's final decision, Indian Air Force (IAF) sources said here today.

"Strategic issues may influence the decision as the Cabinet Committee on Security will take a final call based on political and strategic considerations. The winner of the 126 combat aircraft contract need not necessarily be the lowest bidder," senior IAF officials said.

They were answering to a question if bitter past experiences with Russia on spare supplies and US over technology denials would be taken into consideration before the mother of all defence deals was awarded.

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## sancho

Brahm0s said:


> i wish india chooses typhoon. No matter what other jet fighters are the typhoon the best. Even F-22 pilot flown Typhoon and said its big similar to F-22. *He said Typhoon 2nd best jet fighter after F-22.* India should pick typhoon. Doesnt matter whats the cost. Typhoon would chill the spine of enemy. i wish india picks typhoon. My 2nd pick would be french rafael. 3rd would be russian mig-35.


Two things you should keep in mind mate:

1. What capabilities makes F22 and EF the best (and are also dominant at Mig 35)?

Those fighters are very maneuverable with high t/w ratios, canards , or TVC. Have longe range radars, good weapons for a2a combats and combined with stealth, or low RCS they are clearly among the best air superiority fighters!
But except of stealth, or low RCS the Su 30 MKI offers the same capabilities and if the reports of MKI upg are true, that disadvantage will be reduced. Also don't forget that we have a 5. gen fighter under development, that should offer all those capabilities. 
So if we already have a comparable aircraft and will get another one which will be clearly better than EF, or Mig 35, do we really need one of these?


2. What capabilities does IAF need?

We know that around 150 Mig 21 will be phased out in the next 2 years (most likely the oldest and not upgraded which are in active service now so Bis and M/MF), also all not upgraded Mig 27.

Bharat Rakshak :: Indian Air Force - Aircraft Fleet Strength



> Ground Attack
> MiG-27 UPG...	32 4
> *MiG-27 ML*...*56 7*
> *MiG-21 M/MF*...*72 9*
> Jaguar IS... 80 10
> Jaguar IM... 10 2
> 
> *Total for Ground Attack 250 32*



So if half of the ground attack fighters will be phased out and new incoming fighters like LCA and FGFA only have some ground attack capabilities, shouldn't at least MMRCA have a focus on that?


If you take that all to account + that EF a2g capabilities are still only under development and Mig 35 can't do anything that MKI already couldn't do better, do you still think we should pic them?

IMO it will end up between Rafale and F18SH, with Rafale possibly the choice of IAF and F18SH possibly the choice of the government.


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## Screaming Skull

*Russia aims to start making MiG-35 fighters for India in 2013​*
13/08/2009

NIZHNY NOVGOROD (central Russia), August 13 (RIA Novosti) - *Production of MiG-35 multirole fighters offered for sale to India cannot start before 2013 or 2014*, a Russian aircraft maker said on Thursday.

Russia's MiG-35 Fulcrum-F, an export version of the MiG-29M OVT (Fulcrum F), is a highly maneuverable air superiority fighter, which won high acclaim during the Le Bourget air show in France last year.

*"We have begun testing the MiG-35 fighter for the Indian tender,"* said Alexander Karezin, general director of the Sokol company based in Nizhny Novgorod.

Six major aircraft makers - Lockheed and Boeing from the United States, Russia's MiG, which is part of the UAC, France's Dassault, Sweden's Saab and the EADS consortium of British, German, Spanish and Italian companies - are in contention to win the $10 billion contract for 126 light fighters to be supplied to the Indian Air Force.

*Sokol earlier said that the first two MiG-35 aircraft would be delivered to India in August for test flights prior to the award of the tender. In late 2009, Russia will conduct a series of flight tests with live firing for an Indian Air Force delegation at one of the testing grounds on the Russian territory.*

The fighter is powered by RD-33 OVT thrust vectoring engines. The RD-33 OVT engines provide superior maneuverability and enhance the fighter's performance in close air engagements.

Moscow said if MiG-35 wins the tender, *Russia is ready to transfer all key technology to India's Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. and provide assistance for the production of the aircraft in the country.*

Russia aims to start making MiG-35 fighters for India in 2013 | Top Russian news and analysis online | 'RIA Novosti' newswire


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## Screaming Skull

Hi guys,

2 F-18 SHs and a tanker have landed at the HAL airport. Spotted them while they were landing this evening. 

-Skull


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## Mig-29

Screaming Skull said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> 2 F-18 SHs and a KC-135 tanker have landed at the HAL airport. Spotted them while they were landing this evening.
> 
> -Skull



You seems to be actively involved in the MRCA progress.


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## Screaming Skull

Mig-29 said:


> You seems to be actively involved in the MRCA progress.



lol no! Just plain lucky to be living near the HAL airport!


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## Screaming Skull

*F-18s to fly over Bangalore today​*


> Boeing Integrated Defence Systems F/A-18 Hornet, one of the U.S. Navys frontline air platforms *will take to the skies over Bangalore from Saturday.*





> *Two F/A-18s  one single-seater and the other twin-seater*  will take part in the MMRCA flight evaluation trials (FET) starting August 17. Bangalore has been chosen the venue for the evaluation under normal climatic conditions.





> *The IAFs test pilots on the Indian Evaluation Team  Group Captain Dixit and Wing Commander Chauhan  will also get to fly* and experience first hand the American fighters flying characteristics.





> The team also has three flight test engineers, and representatives from the Defence Ministry, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, the Defence and Research Development Organisation, the Directorate-General of Aeronautical Quality Assurance and the Air Headquarters.





> Following the F/A-18s into Bangalore for the flight trials will be the F-16s, which Lockheed Martin are flying in from the United Arab Emirates (the only air force whose F-16s are equipped with active electronically scanned array radars). The French Rafale is scheduled to be in Bangalore from September 21, while the MiG-35 will arrive in October. In November, the Indian evaluation teams will emplane for Germany and Sweden to familiarise themselves with the Eurofighter Typhoon and the Gripen JAS-39. Both fighters are expected in Bangalore next February and March.



The Hindu : National : F-18s to fly over Bangalore today


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## maverick2009

The Americans have today arrived with their Super Hornets 

They are FIRST to arrive to try and win the MMRCA bid. 

The Hindu : National : F-18s to fly over Bangalore today

All six contenders will have been and gone over the Next 6 Weeks. 

Reports are they will be tested at high Altitude in Dras & Kargil sectors and in desearts in Rajasthan as well as the plains. Tempratures ranging from -40 degrees to +40 degrees


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## Myself.Patriot

that is how they should be,
the intensively variable temprature range in our part of the world have already lead indians to some failuers like the Arjun Tank.


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## IceCold

Why exactly is this news posted in PAF military aviation section? Mods please move it to appropriate section.

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## Beskar

Maverick, Please post the articles where they belong. "Indian defence" is the right forum for this development.


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## SBD-3

maverick2009 said:


> The Americans have today arrived with their Super Hornets
> 
> They are FIRST to arrive to try and win the MMRCA bid.
> 
> The Hindu : National : F-18s to fly over Bangalore today
> 
> All six contenders will have been and gone over the Next 6 Weeks.
> 
> Reports are they will be tested at high Altitude in Dras & Kargil sectors and in desearts in Rajasthan as well as the plains. Tempratures ranging from -40 degrees to +40 degrees



In future wepons episode i saw F-16 to be the most successful fighter in Alaska.Hornet is mostly operated from carriers in sea conditions which are usually mild.so it will be interesting to note the performance of SH in extreme tempratures


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## maverick2009

OK !!!!! if you guys don,t want to discuss this we should move it i guess !!!

I just thought it may be IMPORTANT development. Because i get the impression that the MMRCA race has genuinely started now with the TESTING.. after years of talk talk and no action.


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## Arsalan

ys the best way to get it moved is to stop discussing it here.
if we keep on posting then the thread will continue and this is not the place for it . . 
so kindly no more psots here!!
*MODs please it to Indian defence forum so we can all ontribute to it!*regards!


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## BSF

Broadsword: Duel in the sky: Testing the MMRCAs and rating their chances
The world&#8217;s toughest testing ground

The Indian Air Force (IAF) has assembled a team of its hottest top guns for evaluating the six fighters in the fray. Overseeing the entire testing process will be Air Commodore Rakesh Dhir, the Principal Director, Air Staff Requirements at IAF Headquarters. He will have two separate teams to do the actual flight-testing. One will test the two US fighters --- the F/A-18 and the F-16IN --- and the Russian MiG-35. The other team will be responsible for evaluating the three European aircraft: the Gripen, the Rafale, and the Eurofighter

Jaisalmer: heat and dust

After the testing in Bangalore, each team will travel for two days to Jaisalmer to test aircraft performance in the desert heat. During the Jaisalmer leg, each contender will also drop unguided bombs at a ground target placed in the Pokhran Range. But the really high-tech weaponry --- guided by radar, infrared or laser --- will be tested in each aircraft&#8217;s home base. Switching on airborne radar is a strict no-no when there is the remotest possibility of it being recorded by a foreign country. An aircraft&#8217;s radar signal is as unique to it as a fingerprint is to an individual. Every major air force, India&#8217;s included, maintains a worldwide &#8220;library&#8221; of radar signals; aircraft in those libraries can be quickly identified whenever they switch on their radar.

Ladakh: hot and high

From Jaisalmer, the fighters head for what could be the trickiest part of the trials: the &#8220;Hot and High&#8221; trials at the spectacular Leh airfield, in Ladakh. On the face of it, there isn&#8217;t much to do in Leh: each fighter must land with a specified load of weapons and fuel; switch off its engines and systems; the pilot must alight and do a quick visual check of his aircraft, during which the cold starts to seep into the aircraft components; then after getting back inside, he must start up the fighter&#8217;s engines and systems, without external help, and then take off.



> F/A-18 Super Hornet: Overall chances: COOL
> 
> Pros
> 1. Battle-tested, frontline fighter with the US Navy
> 2. Powerful, agile, rugged, designed for aircraft carriers
> 3. Advanced avionics and missile systems
> 4. Can function as refuelling tanker with external fuel tanks
> 5. Fields fully-operational and deployed Northrop Grumman APG-80 AESA radar
> 
> Cons
> 1. US restrictions on modifications and end usage
> 2. Earlier generation design, dating back to 1980s
> 3. Heavy, 30-ton aircraft, expensive





> Eurofighter Typhoon: Overall chances: COOL
> 
> Pros
> 1. Contemporary fighter, still evolving
> 2. High performance, high-end technology
> 3. Offering India development partnership
> 4. No end user restrictions, easy transfer of technology
> 5. EADS already helping to develop India&#8217;s LCA
> 
> Cons
> 1. No combat experience
> 2. Heavy, 25-ton aircraft, expensive
> 3. AESA radar still under development





> Saab Gripen NG: Overall chances: RED HOT
> 
> Pros
> 1. Only aircraft with Supercruise: supersonic flight without afterburners
> 2. Can land, refuel, rearm and take off in 10 minutes
> 3. Light, single-engine, highly cost-effective
> 4. Selex Raven AESA radar with advanced swashplate technology
> 5. Willing to hand over source codes for high-tech equipment
> 
> Cons
> 1. Has US components, including engines and avionics
> 2. AESA radar still under development
> 3. India has never operated a Swedish fighter





> AC MiG, MiG-35: Overall chances: HOT
> 
> Pros
> 1. Dovetails easily with IAF&#8217;s MiG-29 fleet
> 2. Typical Russian fast, agile fighter
> 3. Vastly improved avionics and targeting system
> 4. Thrust-vectoring engines option exists
> 5. Cheapest ticket price of twin-engine fighters
> 
> Cons
> 1. Airframe barely improved from MiG-29
> 2. Zhuk-Phazotron AESA radar still under development





> Dassault Rafale: Overall chances: DARK HORSE
> 
> Pros
> 1. Amongst the most contemporary options
> 2. France deploys on land and aircraft carriers
> 3. IAF&#8217;s Mirage-2000 fleet creates comfort level with Dassault
> 4. Transfer of technology smooth; no end user restrictions
> 5. Only non-US fighter with deployed AESA radar
> 
> Cons
> 1. Limited combat experience
> 2. 25-tonne, twin-engine aircraft, expensive
> 3. Only contender never to have flown in India



Read the full article here

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## Lankan Ranger

Looks like IAF Boys haveing Fun


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## maverick2009

I have also herd on other websites IAF may surpise us all and give the contract to GRIPEN. 

Based on cost alone this deal will only cost around $8 billion and is a very contemporary fighter. 

Should be very interesting one thing is for sure IAF will learn the secrets of all of these very powerful warplanes in coming weeks. 

Very usefull data base and learning curve for IAF future LCA MK2 plans


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## Mig-29

Russia aims to start making MiG-35 fighters for India in 2013

Production of MiG-35 multirole fighters offered for sale to India cannot start before 2013 or 2014, a Russian aircraft maker said on Thursday.

Russia's MiG-35 Fulcrum-F, an export version of the MiG-29M OVT (Fulcrum F), is a highly maneuverable air superiority fighter, which won high acclaim during the Le Bourget air show in France last year.

"We have begun testing the MiG-35 fighter for the Indian tender," said Alexander Karezin, general director of the Sokol company based in Nizhny Novgorod.

Six major aircraft makers - Lockheed and Boeing from the United States, Russia's MiG, which is part of the UAC, France's Dassault, Sweden's Saab and the EADS consortium of British, German, Spanish and Italian companies - are in contention to win the $10 billion contract for 126 light fighters to be supplied to the Indian Air Force.

Sokol earlier said that the first two MiG-35 aircraft would be delivered to India in August for test flights prior to the award of the tender. In late 2009, Russia will conduct a series of flight tests with live firing for an Indian Air Force delegation at one of the testing grounds on the Russian territory.

The fighter is powered by RD-33 OVT thrust vectoring engines. The RD-33 OVT engines provide superior maneuverability and enhance the fighter's performance in close air engagements.

Moscow said if MiG-35 wins the tender, Russia is ready to transfer all key technology to India's Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. and provide assistance for the production of the aircraft in the country.


ASIAN DEFENCE: Russia aims to start making MiG-35 fighters for India in 2013


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## Developereo

I suspect India's decision on MRCA will have less to do with ancillary issues like ToT or maintenance, and more with countering projected PLA-AF capabilities in the relevant timeframe.


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## ihero06

Interesting topic!
I personally feel that for IAF, Grippen would have been a better choice, considering its compactness and prize. It suits their LCA programs too.

Though I do not have any admiration for GoI, IAF is really professional. And here, IAF is showing its cunningness. Maverick is right, while evaluating world's fighters, they can learn and study the pros and cons of these machines individually. I always wondered why IAF should invite 6 just for one. Probably they want to incorporate all those best technologies in their future home built MCA.


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## Developereo

maverick2009 said:


> one thing is for sure IAF will learn the secrets of all of these very powerful warplanes in coming weeks.
> 
> Very usefull data base and learning curve for IAF future LCA MK2 plans



You've got to be kidding!

By your logic, if someone reads the sales brochure for a Ferrari and takes one out for a test drive, then they can build one the following week.

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## maverick2009

No Developero.

Nobody said anything about developing anything. 

But very importantly the IAF can see which of these fighters best fits IAF needs eg,

1. best suits/fits in with the SU30MKI & Phalcon combo.
2. The different extreeme altitudes and climates.

3. How each plane handles in Sub continent in air combat ground strike missions.

4. Wat are the comparisons ie PROS & CONS of each fighter plane.

5. Network centric operations.

6. Future upgrade plans of Typhoon & Rafale etc. 

India is about to spend $10-15 billion on a major weapon system that will gurantee thousands of jobs in the west AND YOU COMPARE it to buying a car ie a TEST DRIVE. 

The indians are VERY SMART and very thorough they will go thru each plane in detail..

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## sancho

BSF said:


> Broadsword: Duel in the sky: Testing the MMRCAs and rating their chances
> Read the full article here



Some strange pros and cons of the author I must say!

Why is the MTOW of every double engine fighter a con, except the also heavy weight of Mig 35?
Why is combat experience of Rafale limited and a con and no combat experience of Mig 35 not even mentioned?
What about full dependence to Russia?
Why is the willing to hand over source codes for high-tech equipment a pro at Gripen NG, but not at Rafale which offers the same and FULL ToT?
Why is Supercruise a pro at Gripen NG even though the EF proves this capability years before?
and so on



maverick2009 said:


> I have also herd on other websites IAF may surpise us all and give the contract to GRIPEN.
> 
> Based on cost alone this deal will only cost around $8 billion and is a very contemporary fighter.
> 
> Should be very interesting one thing is for sure IAF will learn the secrets of all of these very powerful warplanes in coming weeks.
> 
> Very usefull data base and learning curve for IAF future LCA MK2 plans


Doubtful because, although it might be cheap in maintenance it won't offer the advantages that the other fighters offers in comparison to LCA MK2. The LCA will also have AESA radar, an engine with comparable thrust (possibly even with TVC and SC capabilities) like the Gripen NG, a payload between the older Gripen and the new Gripen NG, IRST and latest avionics, will cost way less then the Gripen NG (offer to Dutch AF was nearly $70 million dollar system price a unit) and is also cheap in maintenance. So why should IAF spend so much if Gripen NG won't be much more capable than the LCA MK2?
The other fighters offers more payload, most of them are fully developed and combat proven, can provide techs to LCA, that Gripen NG can only do with approval of other nations and IAF has already experience with some of them.


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## sancho

Developereo said:


> I suspect India's decision on MRCA will have less to do with ancillary issues like ToT or maintenance, and more with countering projected PLA-AF capabilities in the relevant timeframe.


J10B? Nearly all MMRCA will be at least on par (F16IN, Gripen NG) if not superior to them, so that won't be a real requirement.


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## Lankan Ranger

Is Gripen NG (Next Generation) Fighter jet best choice for India?

Gripen NG Specifications

Role  Multi-role fighter.
Manufacturer - Saab.
Introduction - 9 June 1996.
Unit cost - US$40-60 million.

Gripen NG - The new Gripen NG (Next Generation) will have many new parts and will be powered by the GE/Volvo Aero F414G, a development of the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet engine. The engine will produce 20% more thrust at 98 kN (22,000 lbf), enabling a supercruise speed of Mach 1.1 with air-to-air missiles.

The Gripen NG for India in short:

A powerful and proven engine.
AESA radar.
Advanced Communication systems.
Tactical Data Link.
Supercruise.
Advanced Electronic warfare.
Strategic reach.
Advanced Weapons Capacity.

Why India should choose Gripen NG:

Gripen NG is the worlds one of the most technologically advanced multi-role fighter aircraft with built in Net centric warfare (NCW) technologies and capabilities.

Gripen NG will meet or exceed every operational requirement raised by the Indian Air Force in all roles - Air to Air Fighter BVR/WVR, Air to Surface land and sea and Reconnaissance.

Gripen NG will provide exceptional autonomous multi and swing role capability in normal and hostile FOB operations, and act as a perfect force multiplier.

Gripen NG will, over life, have a substantially lower real Life Cycle Cost than its nearest single engined competitor, and is able to operate at a fraction of the cost of its twin engined competitors.

Gripen NG is the best option for India delivering next generation technical and military capabilities.

Gripen NG will allow India to become a significant partner in the development programme and become a platform for future technology programmes.

In combination with the Industrial Cooperation program, Gripens program for industrial establishment will make India by 2020 completely independent of the need to purchase Gripen NG aircraft from other countries and make it an exporter of Gripen NG aircraft like Sweden.

Operational capability:

As a Next Generation multi-role fighter Gripen NG has the operational range, payload and built-in Net Centric Warfare (NCW) capability to meet all the roles as defined by the Indian Air Force; both national and regional expeditionary. Indias Net Centric Warfare (NCW) capability will be significantly enhanced by operating the Gripen NG in combination with the Embraer E-99 ERIEYE system.

Advanced Weapons System:

Gripen NG has a fully integrated sensor suite with total weapon flexibility and is able to carry weapons sourced from suppliers worldwide. Survivability is assured through a balance between low radar, Infra-Red and visible signatures and a highly advanced modular Electronic Warfare and Self-Protection system.

Support solution:

The logistics concept is designed to meet the requirements of the Indian Air Force and makes maximum usage of existing Indias infrastructure.

The training programme utilizes the existing infra-structure together with synthetic training aids and the Gripen system in order to maximize the training benefit.

Partnership

India will become partner with the Sweden in the design, development and integration of future technology programmes for the Gripen NG. Early Indian involvement in the Gripen NG design and development will give the Indian Air Force and industry unrivalled access to all levels of technology now and for the future.

Offset:

The proposal will deliver Offset equal to the contract value. The Offset programme will transfer unique and advanced technologies and know-how to appropriate Indias industrial and institutional parties with the objective of developing national capabilities.

Production and Maintenance:

The commitment to Indias aerospace includes the option for manufacturing of Gripen NG parts and assemblies and Gripen NG Final assembly in India. 

The maintenance concept is tailored to meet the requirements and 
capabilities of the Indias Industry through - Establishment of a Gripen NG maintenance centre in India ensuring national autonomy and Extensive usage of existing Indias infrastructure securing cost savings and ensuring commonality.

Transfer of Technology:

The Transfer of Technology (ToT) programme will guarantee full involvement in future capability development and maximize Indias industrial autonomy through the transfer of unique and highly advanced competencies. 

The Transfer of Technology will include - Design, development and integration of hardware, avionics, software and systems on the Gripen NG, Transfer of Advanced Technologies and key High-Tech competencies for example Sensor Fusion, Low-Observability (LO) and Stealth, Saab guarantees unrivalled access to all levels of technology, including full access to Gripen NG source codes.

Continued Enhancement:

Gripen Next Generation (NG) is a considerably enhanced version of the already proven and in-service Gripen C/D multi-role fighter. Designed for combat in the 21st Century Net Centric Warfare (NCW) environment Gripens flexible and modular design makes continuous development and enhancement both low risk and cost effective. The Gripen NG programme covers development of all major sensors and avionics including data communication, self-protection systems, weapons integration, as well as airframe and propulsion enhancements.

Operational dominance:

Indias airspace boundaries requires an air defence and air combat fleet that will give it operational dominance along its borders and coastline over the next decades. The aircraft it requires should be able to deliver not only air power and air combat superiority but also logistical, multi-role and versatility in weapons and systems integration.


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## ejaz007

*India Begins Test Runs of Fighter Jets*
AGENCE FRANCE-PRESSE 
Published: 17 Aug 2009 09:52

BANGALORE, India - India began trials Aug. 17 of fighter jets being hawked by the world's six top aerospace giants vying for a $12 billion military contract, officials said.

The sale of 126 combat planes to the technology-starved Indian Air Force will be the world's most lucrative fighter jet contract in more than a decade.

Military air traffic controllers said Boeing kicked off the trials with a display of its F-18 "Superhornet" jets in Bangalore, hub of India's aeronautical and space industry.

"Two F-18s carried out two sorties of 45 minutes each," a controller said as military aviation experts watched the exercise.

The assessment is due to continue for almost a year before New Delhi makes its choice from the six companies, defence ministry officials in New Delhi said.

U.S.-based Lockheed Martin and Europe's EADS will be among the other firms descending on Bangalore.

India is on a spending spree to update its largely Soviet-era weapons system.

After Boeing, Lockheed Martin is next in line to showcase its F-16 to the Indian Air Force, the officials said.

The European Aeronautic Defence and Space Company (EADS) will offer its Typhoon Eurofighter, while Russia is seeking to sell the MiG-35 and MiG-29.

French Dassault, which constructs the Mirage, has put forward its Rafale aircraft as a contender.

The lineup is completed by Gripen, part of Sweden's Saab.

Industry sources have said Lockheed Martin and Boeing have emerged as frontrunners.

Contract stipulations prevent the contending firms from unveiling any detail of the contract, which includes the outright purchase of 18 fighter jets by 2012 and another 108 to be built in India.

India also has an option to buy 64 more jets.

The Indian Air Force, the world's fourth-largest, is also spending $1.6 billion to buy 40 Russian Sukhoi fighter planes by 2010 and is shopping for hundreds of helicopters and transport planes.

India Begins Test Runs of Fighter Jets - Defense News


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## MZUBAIR

maverick2009 said:


> No Developero.
> 
> Nobody said anything about developing anything.
> 
> But very importantly the IAF can see which of these fighters best fits IAF needs eg,
> 
> 1. best suits/fits in with the SU30MKI & Phalcon combo.
> 2. The different extreeme altitudes and climates.
> 
> 3. How each plane handles in Sub continent in air combat ground strike missions.
> 
> 4. Wat are the comparisons ie PROS & CONS of each fighter plane.
> 
> 5. Network centric operations.
> 
> 6. Future upgrade plans of Typhoon & Rafale etc.
> 
> India is about to spend $10-15 billion on a major weapon system that will gurantee thousands of jobs in the west AND YOU COMPARE it to buying a car ie a TEST DRIVE.
> 
> The indians are VERY SMART and very thorough they will go thru each plane in detail..



Yeah, India would probabily go through details and secrets of each craft.


----------



## DaRk WaVe

ejaz007 said:


> *India Begins Test Runs of Fighter Jets*
> AGENCE FRANCE-PRESSE
> Published: 17 Aug 2009 09:52
> 
> BANGALORE, India - India began trials Aug. 17 of fighter jets being hawked by the world's six top aerospace giants vying for a $12 billion military contract, officials said.
> 
> The sale of 126 combat planes to the technology-starved Indian Air Force will be the world's most lucrative fighter jet contract in more than a decade.
> 
> Military air traffic controllers said Boeing kicked off the trials with a display of its F-18 "Superhornet" jets in Bangalore, hub of India's aeronautical and space industry.
> 
> "Two F-18s carried out two sorties of 45 minutes each," a controller said as military aviation experts watched the exercise.
> 
> The assessment is due to continue for almost a year before New Delhi makes its choice from the six companies, defence ministry officials in New Delhi said.
> 
> U.S.-based Lockheed Martin and Europe's EADS will be among the other firms descending on Bangalore.
> 
> India is on a spending spree to update its largely Soviet-era weapons system.
> 
> After Boeing, Lockheed Martin is next in line to showcase its F-16 to the Indian Air Force, the officials said.
> 
> The European Aeronautic Defence and Space Company (EADS) will offer its Typhoon Eurofighter, while Russia is seeking to sell the MiG-35 and MiG-29.
> 
> French Dassault, which constructs the Mirage, has put forward its Rafale aircraft as a contender.
> 
> The lineup is completed by Gripen, part of Sweden's Saab.
> 
> Industry sources have said Lockheed Martin and Boeing have emerged as frontrunners.
> 
> Contract stipulations prevent the contending firms from unveiling any detail of the contract, which includes the outright purchase of 18 fighter jets by 2012 and another 108 to be built in India.
> 
> India also has an option to buy 64 more jets.
> 
> The Indian Air Force, the world's fourth-largest, is also spending $1.6 billion to buy 40 Russian Sukhoi fighter planes by 2010 and is shopping for hundreds of helicopters and transport planes.
> 
> India Begins Test Runs of Fighter Jets - Defense News



good at last we r having it  

F-18s is not offering full TOT, there will remain hegemony and dependence on Uncle Sam, personally for vote goes for Rafale & miG-35, there will be full ToT and Rafale is a also a good carrier based A/C & MiG-25 has got great maneuverability and IAF experience with MiGs will let this A/C adjust into existing IAF infra structure without much trouble


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## Brahm0s

emo_girl said:


> good at last we r having it
> 
> F-18s is not offering full TOT, there will remain hegemony and dependence on Uncle Sam, personally for vote goes for Rafale & miG-35, there will be full ToT and Rafale is a also a good carrier based A/C & MiG-25 has got great maneuverability and IAF experience with MiGs will let this A/C adjust into existing IAF infra structure without much trouble



Friend mig-35 and F-18 aint got chance. Mig-29 can be upgraded to similar mig-35. F-18 super hornet aint the one india will go for it. Our eyes on JSF F-35. when asked to america what if india dont choose F-16? Than america said they would offer india better jet fighter (thats JSF F-35). even our navy said they intrested in JSF F-35 (america loves our navy alot). So i dont see why JSF F-35 wont fly in tricolor. The fight is between Rafael vs Typhoon. Both are best fighter (india would be the only asian country to have it if india chooses anyone of them). This jet fighters far lethal than any asian country has it. Rafael front runner while typhoon not far behind to win MRCA. No matter which jet fighter amoung this too india picks would benefit india only. Mig-35 aint gonna win. It cant be deliverd on time (while india wants it on time). My pick is Typhoon and if not than Rafael. India got the brain. We buying quality jet fighters with full TOT. Now thats what i call 'clever thinking'. Cheers.

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## sancho

Brahm0s said:


> Friend mig-35 and F-18 aint got chance. Mig-29 can be upgraded to similar mig-35. F-18 super hornet aint the one india will go for it. Our eyes on JSF F-35. when asked to america what if india dont choose F-16? Than america said they would offer india better jet fighter (thats JSF F-35). even our navy said they intrested in JSF F-35 (america loves our navy alot). So i dont see why JSF F-35 wont fly in tricolor. The fight is between Rafael vs Typhoon. Both are best fighter (india would be the only asian country to have it if india chooses anyone of them). This jet fighters far lethal than any asian country has it. Rafael front runner while typhoon not far behind to win MRCA. No matter which jet fighter amoung this too india picks would benefit india only. Mig-35 aint gonna win. It cant be deliverd on time (while india wants it on time). My pick is Typhoon and if not than Rafael. India got the brain. We buying quality jet fighters with full TOT. Now thats what i call 'clever thinking'. Cheers.



They didn't offer F35 instead of F16, they just said if we buy F16 IN now, we can have F35 sometimes in future. Also They don't even want to provide much ToT of such old fighters like F16 and F18, do you expect ToT and licence production of F35 in India? Not to forget that F35 is already delayed and will only come by 2016 for the member countries, for exports it will come later and by that time Pak Fa could be ready too.
Btw if delivery by time is a point, EF and Gripen NG also have less chances, because many features of them are still under development.


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## Saint N sinnerr

Face-to-face: rating their chances
Summary of MRCA aircrafts:- short and simle

F/A-18 Super Hornet: Overall chances: COOL

Pros
1. Battle-tested, frontline fighter with the US Navy
2. Powerful, agile, rugged, designed for aircraft carriers
3. Advanced avionics and missile systems
4. Can function as refuelling tanker with external fuel tanks
5. Fields fully-operational and deployed Raytheon APG-79 AESA radar

Cons
1. US restrictions on modifications and end usage
2. Earlier generation design, dating back to 1980s
3. Heavy, 30-ton aircraft, expensive



F-16IN Super Viper: Overall chances: WARM

Pros
1. Tested modern fighter, has logged over 100,000 combat missions globally
2. Single-engine, 19-tonne fighter, price competitive
3. Advanced avionics and missile systems
4. Advanced Northrop Grumman APG-80 AESA radar
5. Four F-16 production lines functioning world-wide

Cons
1. US restrictions on modifications and end usage
2. Earlier generation design, dating back to 1980s
3. Earlier vintage F-16s in service with Pakistan Air Force


Eurofighter Typhoon: Overall chances: COOL

Pros
1. Contemporary fighter, still evolving
2. High performance, high-end technology, including supercruise
3. Offering India development partnership
4. No end user restrictions, easy transfer of technology
5. EADS already helping to develop Indias LCA

Cons
1. No combat experience
2. Heavy, 25-ton aircraft, expensive
3. AESA radar still under development


Saab Gripen NG: Overall chances: RED HOT

Pros
1. Only Eurofighter and Gripen are capable of Supercruise: supersonic flight without afterburners
2. Can land, refuel, rearm and take off in 10 minutes
3. Light, single-engine, highly cost-effective
4. Selex Raven AESA radar with advanced swashplate technology
5. Willing to hand over source codes for high-tech equipment

Cons
1. Has US components, including engines and avionics
2. AESA radar still under development
3. India has never operated a Swedish fighter


RAC MiG, MiG-35: Overall chances: HOT

Pros
1. Dovetails easily with IAFs MiG-29 fleet
2. Typical Russian fast, agile fighter
3. Vastly improved avionics and targeting system
4. Thrust-vectoring engines option exists
5. Cheapest ticket price of twin-engine fighters

Cons
1. Airframe barely improved from MiG-29
2. Zhuk-Phazotron AESA radar still under development
3. Life cycle cost of Russian fighters is traditionally high


Dassault Rafale: Overall chances: DARK HORSE

Pros
1. Amongst the most contemporary options
2. France deploys on land and aircraft carriers
3. IAFs Mirage-2000 fleet creates comfort level with Dassault
4. Transfer of technology smooth; no end user restrictions
5. Only non-US fighter with deployed AESA radar

Cons
1. Limited combat experience
2. 25-tonne, twin-engine aircraft, expensive
3. Only contender never to have flown in India


----------



## DaRk WaVe

Brahm0s said:


> Friend mig-35 and F-18 aint got chance. Mig-29 can be upgraded to similar mig-35. F-18 super hornet aint the one india will go for it. Our eyes on JSF F-35. when asked to america what if india dont choose F-16? Than america said they would offer india better jet fighter (thats JSF F-35). even our navy said they intrested in JSF F-35 (america loves our navy alot). So i dont see why JSF F-35 wont fly in tricolor. The fight is between Rafael vs Typhoon. Both are best fighter (india would be the only asian country to have it if india chooses anyone of them). This jet fighters far lethal than any asian country has it. Rafael front runner while typhoon not far behind to win MRCA. No matter which jet fighter amoung this too india picks would benefit india only. Mig-35 aint gonna win. It cant be deliverd on time (while india wants it on time). My pick is Typhoon and if not than Rafael. India got the brain. We buying quality jet fighters with full TOT. Now thats what i call 'clever thinking'. Cheers.



 F-35 will be only offered if and only if u ppl choose F-16IN, which wont happen & u said India is looking for jets with full TOT, my BrahmOs Uncle Sam is not even ready for full ToT in case of F-16IN & F-18 & u think they will agree on ToT for F-35 hmmmm, and as for Time frame for delivery is concerned uptil now almost no fighter is fully complete except F-16IN & F-18 m AESA for EF n Rafale n MiG n Gripen are not ready yet... 


"Now thats what i call 'clever thinking'"
expecting ToT for F-35 is called clever thinking


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## Brahm0s

emo_girl said:


> F-35 will be only offered if and only if u ppl choose F-16IN, which wont happen & u said India is looking for jets with full TOT, my BrahmOs Uncle Sam is not even ready for full ToT in case of F-16IN & F-18 & u think they will agree on ToT for F-35 hmmmm, and as for Time frame for delivery is concerned uptil now almost no fighter is fully complete except F-16IN & F-18 m AESA for EF n Rafale n MiG n Gripen are not ready yet...
> 
> 
> "Now thats what i call 'clever thinking'"
> expecting ToT for F-35 is called clever thinking



Friend i never said 'Full TOT' on JSF F-35. Yes when asked about F-16IN america did said if india choose F-16IN than they will get JSF F-35 in future but after somedays some reporters asked what if india dont pick F-16IN? does it mean america wont sell jet fighters to india in future? Than america said if india wont pick F-16IN than america would make sure next time jet fighter would be different and even better. Now friend is there any jet fighter better than F-16IN? Answer is 'yes' and its JSF F-35. Just after hearing that our indian navy said they intrested in JSF F-35. i hope you got the hint my friend. Now about rafael. Friend u said Rafael not yet ready. is that true? Rafael already operational in afghanistan. F-16IN and F-18 super hornet aint gonna win. Do you think F-16IN and F-18 operational so india would pick them? Now thats what i call 'funny'. By the way friend there is 'No F-16IN' ready yet. Cheers


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## Brahm0s

sancho said:


> They didn't offer F35 instead of F16, they just said if we buy F16 IN now, we can have F35 sometimes in future. Also They don't even want to provide much ToT of such old fighters like F16 and F18, do you expect ToT and licence production of F35 in India? Not to forget that F35 is already delayed and will only come by 2016 for the member countries, for exports it will come later and by that time Pak Fa could be ready too.
> Btw if delivery by time is a point, EF and Gripen NG also have less chances, because many features of them are still under development.



Friend india wont pick F-16IN. Pakistan flys F-16 from decades. Thats why its funny to me why america piched F-16 (and named IN) to india. Friend there is no full TOT on F-16IN but there is full TOT on Rafael, Mig-35 and typhoon. So america got no chance. About F-35. Friend india will get that but for navy in future (not with full TOT. infact india wont get full TOT on F-35 ever). Pak-fa wont be for navy. Even when pak-fa would be build for navy it would take another 10years to get build. So F-35 got good chance for indian navy. Pak-fa would be land based and not for aircraft carriers.


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## sancho

Brahm0s said:


> Friend india wont pick F-16IN. Pakistan flys F-16 from decades.


 I hope so too!


Brahm0s said:


> Thats why its funny to me why america piched F-16 (and named IN) to india.


 Simple buisiness, they try to get some more money with that old airframe by integrating some newer techs. 


Brahm0s said:


> Friend there is no full TOT on F-16IN but there is full TOT on Rafael, Mig-35 and typhoon. So america got no chance.


 But there is no FULL ToT requirement, we want as much as possible and some contenders offers us full, but that doesn't mean the US fighters are out, because they only offer some.


Brahm0s said:


> About F-35. Friend india will get that but for navy in future (not with full TOT. infact india wont get full TOT on F-35 ever). Pak-fa wont be for navy. Even when pak-fa would be build for navy it would take another 10years to get build. So F-35 got good chance for indian navy. Pak-fa would be land based and not for aircraft carriers.


That's what I said, to produce the aircraft under licence one must get at least some ToT. But For such latest tecs like F35 US won't offer it, so no licence production. Of course we could buy some for navy, but these would be build in the US and again no ToT will be provided. 
Pak Fa and also our FGFA will come as naval versions, that has been reported often before and we will need the time till they arrive to build the bigger carriers, so a 5. gen fighter for navy is not needed now.


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## DaRk WaVe

Brahm0s said:


> Friend i never said 'Full TOT' on JSF F-35. Yes when asked about F-16IN america did said if india choose F-16IN than they will get JSF F-35 in future but after somedays some reporters asked what if india dont pick F-16IN? does it mean america wont sell jet fighters to india in future? Than america said if india wont pick F-16IN than america would make sure next time jet fighter would be different and even better. Now friend is there any jet fighter better than F-16IN? Answer is 'yes' and its JSF F-35. Just after hearing that our indian navy said they intrested in JSF F-35. i hope you got the hint my friend. Now about rafael. Friend u said Rafael not yet ready. is that true? Rafael already operational in afghanistan. F-16IN and F-18 super hornet aint gonna win. Do you think F-16IN and F-18 operational so india would pick them? Now
> thats what i call 'funny'. By the way friend there is 'No F-16IN' ready yet. Cheers



y did u jumped on conclusion tht it will be F-35?? u trust Uncle Sam so much, it might be a diplomatic kinda statement hope is good but dreaming is not 
i was Talking that AESA for Rafale is not ready  & u ppl wont go for it without AESA hmmmm I know Rafale is operating in Afgh & it was not there in Aero India and then u ppl tried to play Cat & mouse with French 
"Do you think F-16IN and F-18 operational so india would pick them? Now thats what i call 'funny' "
my god  u mis understood me....


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## Brahm0s

emo_girl said:


> y did u jumped on conclusion tht it will be F-35?? u trust Uncle Sam so much, it might be a diplomatic kinda statement hope is good but dreaming is not
> i was Talking that AESA for Rafale is not ready  & u ppl wont go for it without AESA hmmmm I know Rafale is operating in Afgh & it was not there in Aero India and then u ppl tried to play Cat & mouse with French
> "Do you think F-16IN and F-18 operational so india would pick them? Now thats what i call 'funny' "
> my god  u mis understood me....



My friend why wont america offer F-35 to india? 'indian ocean' aint going nowhere my friend. So america has to come towards india. Friend did u believe P-8I offered by america and india accepted it with big smile? P-8I aint old technology. infact america created something new and quickly offered it to india. Would that have been possible my friend? America intrested in indian navy due to 'indian ocean'. We will get what we want (atleast not until obama pack his bags and leaves white house after four years. He aint india supportive). Now friend F-16IN and F-18 wont win. Now about mig-35. They said they will provide india with Full TOT. My friend do u know Sukhoi-30MKI? Its build in india yet we beg engine from russia. So what is full TOT my friend? Russia aint got chance. Now rafael and typhoon left. Typhoon ready to make india 5th partner (in future). While rafael the real deal. Rafael ready to even provide engine that india can build at home. So rafael the one will win and if not than typhoon. Cheers.


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## DaRk WaVe

Brahm0s said:


> My friend why wont america offer F-35 to india? 'indian ocean' aint going nowhere my friend. So america has to come towards india. Friend did u believe P-8I offered by america and india accepted it with big smile? P-8I aint old technology. infact america created something new and quickly offered it to india. Would that have been possible my friend? America intrested in indian navy due to 'indian ocean'. We will get what we want (atleast not until obama pack his bags and leaves white house after four years. He aint india supportive). Now friend F-16IN and F-18 wont win. Now about mig-35. They said they will provide india with Full TOT. My friend do u know Sukhoi-30MKI? Its build in india yet we beg engine from russia. So what is full TOT my friend? Russia aint got chance. Now rafael and typhoon left. Typhoon ready to make india 5th partner (in future). While rafael the real deal. Rafael ready to even provide engine that india can build at home. So rafael the one will win and if not than typhoon. Cheers.



ohh bahi F-35 is not even prepared fully & expecting even some ToT for F-35 is like day dreaming & , case of P8 is different from F-35 & in the end if u ppl have to settle for F-35 then Navalized version of FGFA will be great, according to the specifications of FGFA here on this forum FGFA can do a lot better than F-35, i think u'll agree with this & yes in case of MKI russians are not tht stupid tht they will let production of 230 A/Cs to go without their influence after all they will want to keep their monopoly over India weapons, they dont want India to produce everything by itself they dont want to loose a potential market like India under label of ToT  & moreover i think ur Ignoring the political dimension of this deal, all these deals involve politics


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## peace123

russia formalise su-35 offer to india


LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence: EXCLUSIVE: Russia Formalises Su-35 Offer To India


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## sms

India begins $10.4 bln fighter jet trials - Yahoo! India News

Fri, Aug 21 05:11 PM
India started field trials to buy 126 fighter jets this week, defence officials said on Friday, moving forward on a $10.4 billion deal to modernise the air force.

Boeing's F/A-18 Super Hornet, France's Dassault Rafale, Lockheed Martin Corp's F-16, Russia's MiG-35, Sweden's Saab JAS-39 Gripen and the Eurofighter Typhoon, produced by a consortium of European companies, are in the race for the contract, one of the biggest in play.

"The trials have begun in full swing and it will take a year to complete it in different places and weather conditions," Nung Sanglemba Ao, a defence ministry official, told Reuters.

This week, *two pilots are flying Boeing's Super Hornets in Bangalore to test the planes' manoeuvrability and effectiveness,* defence officials said.

The aircraft will be tested in extreme cold conditions in the Himalayas and the hot and humid deserts of Rajasthan, an air force spokesman said.

India is one of the world's biggest arms importers, and its government plans to spend more than $30 billion over the next five years to upgrade its largely Soviet-era arsenal to counter potential threats from Pakistan and China.

Lockheed last year sold six C-130J military transport planes to India for about $1.1 billion, while Boeing has already sealed a $2.1 billion deal to sell eight maritime patrol aircraft


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## sancho

peace123 said:


> russia formalise su-35 offer to india
> 
> 
> LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence: EXCLUSIVE: Russia Formalises Su-35 Offer To India


Why IAF should buy Su 35 if we already have MKI in heavy class?


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## sidharth

Some f-18 super hornet pics 









[/IMG][/IMG]/f18sh/f18outgoing_20081008.jpg[/IMG][/IMG]


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## sidharth




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## sidharth

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---------- Post added at 12:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:43 PM ----------







---------- Post added at 12:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:43 PM ----------







---------- Post added at 12:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:44 PM ----------

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## sidharth




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## sidharth




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## sancho

Rafale in IAF colors







Any new news, or pics about the F18SH trials? Would be interesting to know how satisfied our pilots are with the fighter, compared to more maneuverable Mig 29, or Su 30.

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## sidharth

*MMRCA SQRs emphasize attack potential and ownership costs *

August 17, 2009, (Sawf News) - The IAF MMRCA selection process appears to emphasize attack potential and low cost of ownership, not air combat capability.

A news report in the Hindu on the IAF MMRCA selection process makes on mention of the close combat capability of the contenders.

It says the contending aircraft will be tested for stability, control, safety issues, range and endurance during the flight evaluations with evaluating teams also assessing the capabilities of the radar, navigation equipment, self-defense suites and electronic warfare devices.

Armaments will be tested in the final phase.

Here is a translation of the above SQR: The IAF wants the aircraft that can deliver a given weapon load farthest with accuracy and return safely.

In a refreshing departure from the past, the IAF will also assess the cost of ownership of each aircraft, taking into account factors such as the life of the engine, the cost of overhaul/replacement of engine and the cost to maintain these aircraft by establishing ground support.

"We do not compare one aircraft with another, but evaluate against its ability to meet our requirements and arrive at a through and methodical conclusion. There are no extra points for anyone crossing the minimum [SQR] requirements," an IAF officer familiar with the evaluation trials told the Hindu.

The trials do not involve dissimilar combat so maneuverability will be judged based on rate of turn, climb and acceleration.

Clearly, the IAF is not looking for the most maneuverable aircraft so it's going to be an uphill battle for the MiG-35 despite the crazy rate of turn that it can achieve.

The F-16 and Gripen JAS-39 are constrained by their single engines for the reasons below.

The IAF will never have the resources to establish overwhelming air superiority over enemy airspace, because our potential enemies are no walkovers. Low level penetration, to minimize radar detection range and exposure to ground based missiles, will continue to be an important element of IAF tactics.

Flying at low level entails bird hit risk hence twin engine contenders will be at an advantage.

There can be little doubt the F/A-18E/F will ace the radar, navigation equipment, self-defense suites and electronic warfare evaluation trials with its AN/APG-79, with none of the other contenders, except MiG-35, having a matured AESA. The Phazotron Zhuk AE is matured but first generation.

Lockheed's relatively low key campaign for the F-16IN sometimes makes me wonder if the company entered the fray just to give more legitimacy to the eventuality that the Super Hornet is selected. With two top of the line fighters in contention, a nod for the Super Hornet would be more palatable to the Indian public which is wary of defense deals with the US.

Interestingly IAF officials have repeatedly emphasized that strategic interests will take priority over the lowest bid, another reason why Gripen and MiG-35 aren't going to have a cake walk.


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## notting hill

Just saw this post from screaming regarding F-16 landing in delhi on 31st . I duno if this has been shared before in this forum ,neverthless i am goin to share the brochure of F-16IN released by lockheed with my fellow forum members. The bird is impressive fr sure. 
Tried loading the pdf but the file size is 1.82mb.. below is the text version : 

FOR PEOPLE INTERESTED IN HAVING A LOOK AT THE ORIGINAL PDF OF F-16IN JUST FOLLOW THE FOLLOWING LINK AND DOWNLOAD THE FILE FROM BJORN'S POST .HE IS F-16.NET EDITOR 

http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-9966.html

F-16IN 
Nothing Compares 
F-16IN 
Nothing Compares 

F-16IN 
Nothing Compares. 


No Wonder All Other Fighter Aircraft 
Try To Compare Themselves to the F-16 

With proven performance, effectiveness, versatility, and sustainability, the F-16 
rises above all others as the worlds best multi role fighter. 

The F-16IN is designed exclusively to meet or exceed all of Indias Medium Multi Role Combat 
Aircraft (MMRCA) requirements. Evolutionary integration of the most advanced technologies makes the 
F-16IN the most advanced F-16 ever built. New capabilities  not yet available in other fighters  have 
already been proven in actual combat by the F-16. It is easy to see why the worlds most successful multi 
role fighter keeps getting better and best meets Indias long-term defense needs. By every measure, the right 
choice for India is the F-16IN, the U.S. Air Force, and an industrial partnership with Lockheed Martin. 


No Comparison: Safety, Reliability, and Maintainability 
Safest, most reliable multi role fighter in U.S. Air Force history. 
The F-16 is the most reliable, maintainable, and safest multi role fighter in the world . . . based on more than 13 million flight hours in 
peacetime and combat operations. Our support approach provides the lowest life-cycle cost, operates within the existing Indian Air Force 
infrastructure, demonstrates greater than 99% flight mission reliability, and ensures greater than 86% aircraft availability (proven greater 
than 90% in combat situations). The F-16 is highly supportable, with a 70% decrease in operations and support costs over legacy systems. 
No Comparison: Combat and Operational Effectiveness 
Most dominant warfighting capability in the region. 
The F-16 is the most operationally proven multi role fighter available today. It is proven with 
the U.S. Air Force  and with many of the worlds finest air forces  through millions of flight 
hours and under the full range of climatic conditions, operational environments, and support 
requirements. It has extensive combat operations in 10 different countries, with hundreds of 
thousands of combat sorties being flown in the Balkans, Middle East, and Southwest Asia. The 
F-16 is the backbone fighter in these multi role operations, demonstrating unmatched lethality, 
survivability, and supportability. 
 More combat hours (over 400,000) 
 More air-to-air victories (720) 
 More flight hours (over 13 million) 
 More combat missions flown (over 100,000 sorties) 
 More ordnance delivered in combat (over 2,200,000 kg) 
 Over 100 weapons certified in thousands of operational configurations 
No Comparison: Performance to Indias Operational Requirements 
Exemplary performance in all missions and key operational requirements. 
Actual combat experience drives the evolution of aero performance, high maneuverability, high 
range/payload, and integration of advanced technology to create the most effective multi role 
fighter available today. This includes avionics, sensors, and weapons with standoff and satellite-
guided weapon capability, active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, an internal 
electronic warfare (EW) suite, and advanced navigation. These systems and technologies 
combine to either meet or exceed all MMRCA requirements and provide extensive growth 
capability for the future. 
Nothing Compares Because 
Nothing Can Compare 
No Comparison: Safety, Reliability, and Maintainability 
Safest, most reliable multi role fighter in U.S. Air Force history. 
The F-16 is the most reliable, maintainable, and safest multi role fighter in the world . . . based on more than 13 million flight hours in 
peacetime and combat operations. Our support approach provides the lowest life-cycle cost, operates within the existing Indian Air Force 
infrastructure, demonstrates greater than 99% flight mission reliability, and ensures greater than 86% aircraft availability (proven greater 
than 90% in combat situations). The F-16 is highly supportable, with a 70% decrease in operations and support costs over legacy systems. 
No Comparison: Combat and Operational Effectiveness 
Most dominant warfighting capability in the region. 
The F-16 is the most operationally proven multi role fighter available today. It is proven with 
the U.S. Air Force  and with many of the worlds finest air forces  through millions of flight 
hours and under the full range of climatic conditions, operational environments, and support 
requirements. It has extensive combat operations in 10 different countries, with hundreds of 
thousands of combat sorties being flown in the Balkans, Middle East, and Southwest Asia. The 
F-16 is the backbone fighter in these multi role operations, demonstrating unmatched lethality, 
survivability, and supportability. 
 More combat hours (over 400,000) 
 More air-to-air victories (720) 
 More flight hours (over 13 million) 
 More combat missions flown (over 100,000 sorties) 
 More ordnance delivered in combat (over 2,200,000 kg) 
 Over 100 weapons certified in thousands of operational configurations 
No Comparison: Performance to Indias Operational Requirements 
Exemplary performance in all missions and key operational requirements. 
Actual combat experience drives the evolution of aero performance, high maneuverability, high 
range/payload, and integration of advanced technology to create the most effective multi role 
fighter available today. This includes avionics, sensors, and weapons with standoff and satellite-
guided weapon capability, active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, an internal 
electronic warfare (EW) suite, and advanced navigation. These systems and technologies 
combine to either meet or exceed all MMRCA requirements and provide extensive growth 
capability for the future. 
Nothing Compares Because 
Nothing Can Compare 

No Comparison: The Most Advanced Technology 


Modern Avionics, Sensors, and System Capabilities 

The F-16IN includes a full-color, all-digital glass cockpit with large displays; a powerful 
high-speed mission computer; an enhanced high-thrust engine; a large weapon inventory 
including the latest sophisticated weapons; an advanced sensor system; and advanced 
survivability through reduced radio frequency, infrared, acoustic, and visual spectrum 
signatures. The F-16 has extensive growth and flexibility that has allowed it to evolve and 
remain the most capable, combat-proven multi role fighter in the world. Through robust 
technology transfer, the Indian Air Force obtains the ability to adapt the F-16IN with new 
capabilities, whether through technology advancements or new requirements. 


Modern, Full-Color,All-Digital Glass 
Cockpit 

The F-16IN pilot receives easy-to-interpret 
information via the full-color, all-digital glass 
cockpit. The powerful high-speed mission computer 
has large displays, allowing reduced workload 
and focus on the 
mission, not the 
mechanics. 

The missionized twin-seat version of 
the F-16IN fully integrates the advanced 
weapons system and two-person crew, 
increasing survivability and situational 
awareness in high-workload environments. 



Proven AESA Radar 

The F-16IN APG-80 active electronically scanned array (AESA) 
radar is fully developed, integrated, and operational. The APG80 
is the only AESA deployed operationally outside the United 
States. This revolutionary all-weather, precision targeting AESA 
radar provides outstanding situational awareness and detection; 
ultrahigh-resolution synthetic aperture radar (SAR) mapping, 
fully interleaved with automatic terrain following; and air-to-air 
tracking of multiple targets. The APG-80 AESA radar incorporates 
the latest technology to a level exceeding that of any available in a 
fighter today. 


Enhanced High-Thrust Engine 

The F-16IN offers one of the worlds best fighter engines  the 
General Electric F110-132A engine in the 143 kN thrust class, 
with a reputation for stall-free operation. This engine is proven 
around the world and continues to demonstrate its record of safety, 
reliability, maintainability, and durability. The F-16IN features 
an advanced full authority digital electronic control for the most-
reliable single-engine aircraft operation. 

Advanced Survivability Features 

The small signature of the F-16 reduces detection by enemy 
radars. Modern threat warning systems, expendables, and internal 
electronic warfare systems help avoid or defeat the most advanced 
threats. Superior agility, excellent pilot situational awareness, 
buried fuel lines, and fuel inerting systems reduce the F-16s 
vulnerability to attack. Critical systems redundancy and shielding 
enhance survivability in the event of attack. 

Large Weapons Inventory 

F-16 stores integration continues to grow  more than 100 stores in 
over 5,000 combinations. Special mission capability, such as anti-
shipping and photoreconnaissance, has been added to the fighters 
stores mix. With combined load-outs of air-to-air and air-to-ground 
weapons, the F-16 has demonstrated the ability to provide self-
escort and defend itself against enemy fighters. 

Highly Effective Electronic Warfare Suite 

The Electronic Warfare Suite is designed with a high-speed 
Fibre Channel data communication architecture meeting 
the demanding warfighter requirements for detection, 
countermeasures, communications, displays, controls, mission 
operation, and internal installation, resulting in one of the most 
effective electronic warfare systems ever fielded on a multi role 
fighter. The F-16IN Electronic Warfare Suite takes technologies 
and capabilities historically confined to large, specialized 
electronic warfare aircraft and integrates them into the multi role 
fighter configuration. 

Net-Centric Warfare Capability 

The fusion of net-centric operation and onboard data provides a 
total battlespace picture and optimizes mission accomplishment. 
Data integrates through all phases of the mission  from mission 
planning, navigation, communication, and target prosecution to 
return to base  transforming the pilot from an aircraft system 
manager to a tactician. 

Range and Payload 

Conformal fuel tanks (CFTs) significantly extend the F-16INs 
range and persistence. The CFTs install and remove easily and 
are aerodynamically shaped for maximum efficiency without 
compromising the F-16s legendary handling characteristics. The 
F-16IN can deliver more than 1,500 kg of ordnance on targets 
more than 1,700 km away and return home without refueling. 


Advanced Technology That Drives 
Unmatched Mission Performance 



No Comparison: High-Value Industrial Partnership 


With the worlds largest, most successful 
defense contractor. 

Indias partnership with Lockheed Martin provides access to the 
highest technology, opportunities for technology co-development, 
low-risk licensed production, and extensive long-term business 
opportunities. Lockheed Martin provides a low-risk production 
plan for MMRCA that includes licensed production with 
Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) and extensive participation 
with Indian industry. Lockheed Martin has also demonstrated 


successful F-16 licensed production in four countries and 
co-development of other fighters in three countries. The 
unparalleled ability to successfully transfer technology and 
establish indigenous capability in countries throughout the 
world has also been demonstrated. Lockheed Martin has 
never failed to meet an offset commitment, with over $37 
billion realized by 40 countries. An MMRCA partnership 
with Lockheed Martin offers the following benefits: 

 High-level transfer of technology 
 Indian ability to leverage experience and capability across 
the entire defense spectrum  space, air, land, and sea 
 Advanced technologies (including true 5TH generation 
technology), processes, and procedures, only available through 
Lockheed Martin 
 The most direct roadmap to F-35 capability based on F-16IN 
MMRCA partnering successes 
 Opportunities for joint technology development- air, space, 
communications, net-centric warfare, unmanned aerial vehicles, 
ground-and sea-based systems, operational data link, and light 
combat aircraft 

No Comparison: Key Strategic Partnerships With the United States and the U.S. Air Force 

MMRCA is a key program for the U.S. Air Force and a critical enabler in the relationship between 
the Indian Air Force and the U.S. Air Force. 

The U.S. Air Force provides high value to the Indian Air Force with program and acquisition oversight, affordability through 
weapon system commonality, operational effectiveness through joint exercises, common training, and concept of operations/tactics 
development. Through the partnership, the Government of India benefits from U.S. Air Force support in the following ways: 

 Planning, execution, and operational concepts 
 U.S. defense production prioritization 
 Access to U.S. ranges and test facilities 
 Proven and established U.S. contracting processes 
 Regulations to ensure timely performance to quality and schedule 
With the selection of F-16IN for MMRCA, India joins with 24 
countries that have selected the F-16 and its dominant capabilities for 
their sovereign defense. The F-16IN  the newest and most advanced 
design of any F-16 ever built  provides the Indian Air Force a strong 
leadership position within the international community. 

 The right fighter 
No Comparison: F-16IN  The right technologies 
 The right partners 

Lockheed Martin 
Aeronautics Company 

P.O. Box 748 
Fort Worth, TX 76101 
Lockheed Martin - We never forget who we're working for 
A07-23202A001


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## Screaming Skull

*Lockheed Martin flying in F-16s to Bangalore on Monday for IAF trials​*
Fri, Aug 28 06:50 PM

Bangalore, Aug 28 (IANS): *Three F-16 advanced fighters of US aerospace major Lockheed Martin will soar into the skies Monday for the flight evaluation trials (FET)* of the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) the Indian Air Force (IAF) is seeking to replace its ageing Soviet-era MiG-21 fleet.

*'We are flying in three F-16s from Dubai to Bangalore Aug 31 for the month-long field trials. The fourth-generation advanced fighters are currently with the United Arab Emirates (UAE) Air Force. They will be flown by our test pilots along with US Air Force pilots,'* a senior Lockheed Martin official told IANS here.

In the run-up to the trials, to be conducted in Bangalore, near Jaisalmer in Rajasthan desert and in high-altitude Leh in September, Lockheed Martin has flown-in an advance team, including a logistics group, for ground preparations.

*'The F-16s, with fifth generation capabilities, will demonstrate to the IAF their strike power, speed, accuracy and its awesome 360-degree maneouvers, with its sophisticated active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar,'* Lockheed Martin director Michael R. Griswold said.

If Lockheed Martin bags the lucrative order, estimated to be about $10 billion at current prices for 126 aircraft, it will manufacture an Indian version, christened F-16IN Super Viper that will carry about 8,000kg of conventional weapons or nuclear warheads.

The other five aircraft in the fray for the order are Boeing's F/A-181N Super Hornet, the Dassault Rafale, the Saab Gripen, the Russian MiG-35 and the European consortium EADS Eurofighter Typhoon.

As per the global tender floated last year, the winning bidder will have to deliver 18 aircraft in fly-away condition, while the remaining 108 will be manufactured by the state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) under a technology transfer deal.

*Though the tender is for 126 aircraft, there is an option for an additional 50 percent, or 63 more aircraft.*

The F-16 trials will take place a fortnight after Boeing flew in its two Super Hornets Aug 14 and conducted trials for about 10 days from Aug 17 in Bangalore before taking-off to Jaisalmer and Leh for a series of trials in hot and cold weather conditions.

During the second round of field trials, senior IAF test pilots will join Lockheed Martin test pilots to fly the tandem-seater fighters for a firsthand feel of its capabilities and technologies, especially its electronic warfare abilities.

*'Initially, the IAF pilots will co-pilot the aircraft, taking controls mid-air after familiarising themselves with the systems and the advanced navigation aids. In the subsequent trials, the IAF pilots will take command of the aircraft for evaluating its various parameters, including use of weapons,'* a Lockheed Martin official said but declined to be named.

The IAF has formed two teams of two test pilots each for the flight trials, which will be conducted in three stages: pilot familiarisation, field trials and weapons systems trials. The third stage will be conducted in the country of manufacture.

The technical evaluation was completed early this year after the six manufacturers responded to the IAF's Request for Proposal (RFP) in August 2007.

'All the trials are on a no-cost-no-commitment basis. The IAF will buy only the aircraft that meets all the parameters in terms of capabilities and cost,' a defence analyst told IANS here.

Lockheed Martin flying in F-16s to Bangalore for IAF trials - Yahoo! India News

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## warlock21

thanks friends..... Any Information regarding ... what is the outcome of F-18 trials...looks like this Global tender is of 180 Fighter Jets rather than 120 - 126..

But more important News would be the Word on TRANFER OF TECHNOLOGY to us.. especially if it come from the US...... coz tht would have serious implications on us in LONG TERM.


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## GLOBAL HAWK

warlock21 said:


> thanks friends..... Any Information regarding ... what is the outcome of F-18 trials...looks like this Global tender is of 180 Fighter Jets rather than 120 - 126..
> 
> But more important News would be the Word on TRANFER OF TECHNOLOGY to us.. especially if it come from the US...... coz tht would have serious implications on us in LONG TERM.



Hi Mate!
can you let us know of any link regarding the increase in the number of fighter jets


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## warlock21

GLOBAL HAWK said:


> Hi Mate!
> can you let us know of any link regarding the increase in the number of fighter jets





Just read the above article from SS..... he underlined this thing already.

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## notting hill

FOR PEOPLE WHO WANT TO PLAY AROUND IN *F-16IN *COCKPIT.. HERE IS THE LINK : 

http://www.lmaeronautics.com/f16in/F-16IN&#37;20Spherical REZED 8-26.html


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## shchinese

we Chinese in general admire your very good channel of weapon supply. just look at your navy, how many stuff are made/design in india? almost nothing! you get all those gears from different country - so easily!

when we are working hard to get something done, you just pay $ and you easily get it. when your navy Mumbai class ship went to our port, we all shocked! an Indian navy ship comes with a collection of gears from almost a dozen country! that is the most internationalized weapon system in the world. you know, the US, EU, Russia, China, Japan just simply can't match that. 

now you are running this MRCA show, we admire you again! with already so many fighters from different countries, you are adding more complexity into your airforce! nice, nice, nice!


----------



## gogbot

shchinese said:


> . when your navy Mumbai class ship went to our port, we all shocked! an Indian navy ship comes with a collection of gears from almost a dozen country! that is the most internationalized weapon system in the world. you know, the US, EU, Russia, China, Japan just simply can't match that.



LoL, *The most internationalized weapon system in the world 

*, i guess that's one way to put it. 

KUDOS to your wit


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## shchinese

gogbot said:


> LoL, *The most internationalized weapon system in the world
> 
> *, i guess that's one way to put it.
> 
> KUDOS to your wit



 

we are having big problems on our Taihang engines, although Taihang has been installed on our J-11B fighters for active service, however the reliability is just not great. 

we are having big problems on our big carriers, Y-9 has been in "development" for almost 10 years now, we still can't get it down. 

we are having big problems on our aircraft carriers, as both the engine and the aircrafts need to be made in China - which is never an easy task. 

you guys simply don't have such problems to worry about, you get it from everywhere. there is rumors that even the bullets used by your army is bought from other countries. 

 cheers for the most internationalized armed forces in the world!


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## humblehobbes

maybe they trust us with the gears.. They know that we will not reverse engineer it and sell it to other cut countries at cut rate prices  I guess the international community does not trust you guys with even a single gear


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## shchinese

humblehobbes said:


> maybe they trust us with the gears.. They know that we will not reverse engineer it and sell it to other cut countries at cut rate prices



 it is not that easy to clone those stuff. can you just clone the intel chip and make big money? can you just clone the windows system that allows you to have significant upgrades to the kernel functionalities and sell it for $$$? 

or can you just clone the the 155mm gear shown in the following link?
http://himg2.huanqiu.com/attachment/081204/cbdb248ecc.jpg 

you can't, the infrastructure, industry base doesn't allow you (and China) to do that.


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## humblehobbes

shchinese said:


> it is not that easy to clone those stuff. can you just clone the intel chip and make big money? can you just clone the windows system that allows you to have significant upgrades to the kernel functionalities and sell it for $$$?
> 
> or can you just clone the the 155mm gear shown in the following link?
> http://himg2.huanqiu.com/attachment/081204/cbdb248ecc.jpg
> 
> you can't, the infrastructure, industry base doesn't allow you (and China) to do that.




Fine! then what is the point you asserting in most of your threads that the Chinese C0CK is bigger than the Indian one?


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## shchinese

humblehobbes said:


> Fine! then what is the point you asserting in most of your threads that the Chinese C0CK is bigger than the Indian one?



 to tell you guys the truth so you won't believe your propaganda media. 

you can check your media, in just the past few months, how many "china is going to invade us", "we are going to have war with china" kind of stuff? 

this is something you can't deny, it is widely reported in your country by your media.


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## beckham

shchinese said:


> to tell you guys the truth so you won't believe your propaganda media.
> 
> you can check your media, in just the past few months, how many "china is going to invade us", "we are going to have war with china" kind of stuff?
> 
> this is something you can't deny, it is widely reported in your country by your media.



Well, we are not ones who is lacking freedom of speech and being suppressed by the commies !The news of "china is going to invade us" wasn't a big news, only a few newspapers reported that and I didn't even saw it on a single TV channel !  plzz Don't make a big seal out of it and get back to topic .....


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## Sargodhian_Eagle

In short tell me that which AC has been chosen by IAF?


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## beckham

Sargodhian_Eagle said:


> In short tell me that which AC has been chosen by IAF?



*None ! * - short enough ?


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## MANDEEP SINGH

Hello everyboby! This is my first post.I am a young guy interested in military and defence so PLZ correct me if i posted anything wrong.
A lot has been written about INDIA'S MMRCA tender but no clear favourite has emerged. All the blogs, sites and people have their own favourites.
What I want to know is that can JAS 39 GRIPEN be the best buy for INDIA ?
Some facts we need to keep in mind:
1.The tender is for 126 aircrafts (+64 if required),
2.It aims at replacing the age old MIG 21,
3.INDIA already has one of the finest air superiority fighters SU 30MKI (PLZ don't include F 22 RAPTOR).

This is what GRIPEN offers:
Following submission of the Saab/Gripen teams bid Eddy de la Motte, Gripen Internationals India Campaign Director said By choosing Gripen IN, India will receive an affordable world class weapons system that will enhance Indias military operational capability and industrial defence base well into the future and in addition, will create independent capabilities right from the word go.

Gripen IN will provide India with a capability that offers complete independence of weapon supply. In addition, Gripen IN comes with the guarantee that we are committed to ensuring that India will have the fighter that the Indian Air Force wants he continued.

We will do this by transferring all necessary technologies to enable Indian industry and the Air Force to build, operate and modify Gripen to meet all indigenous requirements over time. Gripen IN has huge future growth potential for India to harness to the maximum extent, ensuring that this fighter above all others, will stay in the lead as future technology brings yet greater effectiveness and firepower he continued.

Gripen is fully operational today and with the total long-term commitment and support of the Swedish government, I believe that Gripen IN will provide the basis for significant future Indian and international co-operative programmes in future.

Gripen IN is a tailored version of the Gripen NG next generation fighter, which includes increased combat range and endurance, additional weapons carriage capability and increased payload, the more powerful General Electric F414G engine and supercruise capability

Other strengths include a wide choice of integrated weapons and pods; reasonable purchase cost; the fact that it has been designed for exceptional cost of ownership; and the ability operate from roads instead of runways if necessary. With respect to industrial offsets, Saab has made a strong offer, backed by excellent record in countries like South Africa, Hungary, The Czech Republic etc.

As an interesting side note, the JAS-39NGs use of GEs F414G engine could create future commonality with the Kaveri engines successor. The Tejas LCA will use GEs F404 engines until an Indian substitute is ready, and GEs F414 is one of 2 engines under consideration as the basis for the Tejas Mk2s power plant. 

Gripen is offering a comprehensive Transfer of Technology (ToT) programme, ensuring access and transfer of technology to enable India to manage all aspects of the life cycle for the Gripen IN.

Gripen also offers a reliable, innovative, cost-effective and life-time logistics support solution sourced from Indian suppliers with support from Saab and its partners. State-of-the-art training facilities that combine synthetic training aids and real fighters, for the training of pilots and maintenance personnel.





THE FACT FILE:

The Saab JAS 39 Gripen (English: Griffin) is a fighter aircraft manufactured by the Swedish aerospace company Saab. Gripen International acts as a prime contracting organisation and is responsible for marketing, selling and supporting the Gripen fighter around the world.

The aircraft is in service with the Swedish Air Force, the Czech Air Force, the Hungarian Air Force and the South African Air Force, and has been ordered by the Royal Thai Air Force. A total of 236 Gripens have been ordered as of 2008.

General characteristics
Price per unit: 40-60 million $
Crew: 1 (2 for JAS 39B/D) 
Length: 14.1 m (46 ft 3 in) 
Wingspan: 8.4 m (27 ft 7 in) 
Height: 4.5 m (14 ft 9 in) 
Wing area: 30.0 m² (323 ft²) 
Empty weight: 5,700 kg (14,600 lb) 
Loaded weight: 8,500 kg (18,700 lb) 
Max takeoff weight: 14,000 kg (31,000 lb) 
Powerplant: 1× Volvo Aero RM12 afterburning turbofan 
Dry thrust: 54 kN (12,100 lbf) 
Thrust with afterburner: 80.5 kN (18,100 lbf) 
Wheel track: 2.4 m (7 ft 10 in) 
Length (two-seater): 14.8 m (48 ft 5 in) 

Performance:

Maximum speed:
At altitude: Mach 2 (2,130 km/h, 1,320 mph) 
Combat radius: 800 km (500 mi, 432 nmi) 
Ferry range: 3,200 km (2,000 mi) with drop tanks 
Service ceiling: 15,240 m (50,000 ft) 
Wing loading: 336 kg/m² (68.8 lb/ft²) 
Thrust/weight: 0.97 

Armament
1 × 27 mm Mauser BK-27 cannon 120 rounds 
6 × Rb.74 (AIM-9) or Rb 98 (IRIS-T) 
4 × Rb.99 (AIM-120) or MICA 
4 x Rb.71 (Skyflash) or Meteor 
4 x Rb.75 
2 x KEPD.350 
4 x GBU-12 Paveway II laser-guided bomb 
4 x rocket pods 13.5 cm rockets 
2 x Rbs.15F anti-ship missile 
2 x Bk.90 cluster bomb 
8 x Mark 82 bombs 
1 x ALQ-TLS ECM pod 

I feel JAS 39 GRIPEN suits the needs of INDIA
My ouestion:
1.What is your opinion about JAS 39 GRIPEN keeping above req. in mind ?
2.If INDIA increase its req. from 126 planes to 200,we can afford multiple vendors.In such a case what combination do you suggest ?
3.If you have to take decision what will be your choice ?
4.Also it is cheaper as compared to TYPHOON or RAFALE and along with SU30 MKI it can form a good combination?
PLEASE senior members share your opinion......


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## sancho

MANDEEP SINGH said:


> 1.What is your opinion about JAS 39 GRIPEN keeping above req. in mind ?
> 2.If INDIA increase its req. from 126 planes to 200,we can afford multiple vendors.In such a case what combination do you suggest ?
> 3.If you have to take decision what will be your choice ?
> 4.Also it is cheaper as compared to TYPHOON or RAFALE and along with SU30 MKI it can form a good combination?
> PLEASE senior members share your opinion......



1. It won't be the the best choice for IAF, cause it is way to dependent on other countries (engine, radar, or the main weapons), what would be a problem if we face sanctions again and it could not share any techs with LCA without permission of them.
Also the capabilities it offers, comes close to LCA MK2, what makes the costs not worth it again.
Not to forget that it is still only under development and could face further delays.
Another point is that Sweden has nearly no important political influence that could be useful for India.

2. + 3. It was officially stated that there will be only a single winner, so no need to think about a second vendor.

4. It is cheaper, but mainly in operational costs, in unit costs it could be closer to F18 and Rafale as people thinks. Reports talks about an offer for Dutch AF, of 85 Gripen NG with a system price (including traning, simulators, spares...) of around $70 million dollar each.


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## pakpower

My simple question is this who will be the winner of this MRCA Tender out of already mention competors ?


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## duhastmish

The simple answer to your question is : the process to choose the fighter have started and we have no clue yet who will be winner- we are all giving our own 2 cent.s


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## brahmastra

^^ F-18 or EF.


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## sancho

pakpower said:


> My simple question is this who will be the winner of this MRCA Tender out of already mention competors ?


Trials will be held till april next year, then 2, or 3 fighters will be shortlisted, but till then nobody can really say who will win, because too much is unknown. 
For example, are a2g capabilities more important than a2a, or is the limited ToT for US fighters enough to let them win, how much shared techs should MMRCA and LCA have and how important are political reasons?
IMO F18SH, Rafale and EF has the best chances, the others have too many disadvantages.


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## hack

I believe it will be the Euro Fighter....the spin off advantages of being exposed to the latest western fighter tech would be incredible. No other company is offering the amount of tech sharing as EADS except the Russians but Indian will already have access to it thro the Pak-FA program.


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## sancho

hack said:


> I believe it will be the Euro Fighter....the spin off advantages of being exposed to the latest western fighter tech would be incredible. No other company is offering the amount of tech sharing as EADS except the Russians but Indian will already have access to it thro the Pak-FA program.


Actually it is not really clear how much ToT they really offer. The partnership is mainly for production and development of avionics and there was never a statement of full ToT, like Dassault and Mig said.


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## Sargodhian_Eagle

brahmastra said:


> ^^ F-18 or EF.



I agree
MiG-35 with israeli radar may be an other option.


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## duhastmish

*India begins to test F-16 fighters in the tender for the program MMRCA*



2 &#1089;&#1077;&#1085;&#1090;&#1103;&#1073;&#1088;&#1103; 2009 September 2, 2009
/AVIA.RU/ / AVIA.RU /
2 &#1089;&#1077;&#1085;&#1090;&#1103;&#1073;&#1088;&#1103;, AVIA.RU  - Three F-16 Lockheed Martin, leased from the UAE Air Force, arrived in India for testing and evaluation in the tender to supply 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft program MMRCA, transmits ARMS-TASS with reference to the agency IANS.
Operated by the UAE Air Force F-16 aircraft "block-60" refers to a generation "4 +" and are the most modern in the current version of the F-16.
Aircraft equipped with radar with active phased array with electronic scanning.If she wins, Lockheed Martin intends to deliver an improved version of the Indian Air Force aircraft that were designated as F-16IN "Super Viper, which will be 8000 kg combat load, including high and nuclear munitions.
Fighter aircraft performed a flight from Dubai and is scheduled during the month will be in India for a comprehensive assessment of their flying qualities. The group Lockheed Martin pilots - test company, the U.S. Air Force pilots, engineers and technicians.
As planned, tests will be carried on to develop a common template for all its committees, formed of experts located in Bangalore Test Center's elite aviation ASTE (Aircraft and Systems Testing Establishment) HAL company, United Defense Research and Development (DRDO), Ministry of Defense and the Indian Air Force .

Google Translate


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## ratolz

pakpower said:


> My simple question is this who will be the winner of this MRCA Tender out of already mention competors ?



I cant give you a simple answer, but it will depend upon these facts:

1.What suits most for the requirements of IAF
2.TOT for aircraft, or may be for some other defence equipments/weapons.
3.Political benefit.


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## sancho

duhastmish said:


> If she wins, Lockheed Martin intends to deliver an improved version of the Indian Air Force aircraft that were designated as F-16IN "Super Viper, *which will be 8000 kg combat load*, including high and nuclear munitions.



As much as MKI, or F18 SH can carry??? Doubtful!


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## warlock21

Yup its True New Version of F-16 can carry upto 8k Kgs of payload.


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## brahmastra

sancho said:


> As much as MKI, or F18 SH can carry??? Doubtful!



No its true. otherwise there is no need to even test the F-16 if there are already F-18 in the competition.


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## hack

brahmastra said:


> No its true. otherwise there is no need to even test the F-16 if there are already F-18 in the competition.



Depends on what you are looking for..the F-16 is primarily a A2A fighter while the F-18 is a bomb truck designed for A2G.


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## arihant

I thought Mig-35 would be really good.


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## beckham

MRCA IN A NUTSELL 


Saab Gripen







*Entered service: * 1997 (Air Force NG version)

*Engine: * One Volvo Aero Corporation RM12, producing up to 18,000 lbs of thrust

*Max speed: * Mach 2.0

*Maximum takeoff weight: * 28,000 lbs

*Radar: * Ericsson PS-05/A pulse Doppler radar (AESA radar scheduled for 2012)

*Sales Pitch: * The Gripen Fighter is designed with room for a spare system to incorporate new sensors, avionics and weapons easily, according to Saab. The Gripen IN, based on the domestically used Gripen NG, is designed to accommodate India's MMRCA needs. It offers increased combat range and endurance, additional weapons capacity and a more powerful General Electric F414G engine.

Dassault Lockheed Rafale 






*Entered service: * 2001 (Air Force)

*Engine: * Two M88-2E4s, each producing up to 11,250 to 17,000 pounds of thrust

*Max speed: * Mach 1.8+ 

*Maximum takeoff weight: * 54,000 lbs

*Radar: * Thales RBE2 radar

*Sales Pitch: * According to Dassault Aviation, this omnirole fighter eliminates the need for seven types of aircraft, including seasoned planes such as the Jaguar, and three variants of the venerable Mirage 2000. A minimal amount of maintenance support required on the ground and France's intention to use it as the country's principal aircraft until 2040meaning spare parts and training services will remain availablemake this plane affordable, maintainable and durable.

 Eurofighter Typhoon 






*Entered service: * 2003 (Germany)

*Engine: * Two Eurojet EJ200s, each producing up to 20,000 lbs of thrust

*Max speed: * Mach 2.0

*Maximum takeoff weight: * 50,000 lbs

*Radar: *CAPTOR (ECR 90) pulse Doppler radar

*Sales Pitch: * The Eurofighter Typhoon is known for its agility in the combat zone and comes with a multirole weapon system. Currently the primary aircraft in six nations' air forces the U.K., Germany, Italy, Spain, Austria and Saudi Arabiathis Typhoon offers a "consistently high level of operational readiness, rapid turn-around times and easy deployment," according to Eurofighter. It now employs a Doppler radar, and the aircraft successfully tested an AESA CAPTOR radar (CAESAR) in 2007.

Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet  






*Entered service: * 1998 (Navy)

*Engine: * Two F414-GE400s, each producing up to 22,000 lbs of thrust

*Max speed: * Mach 1.8

*Maximum takeoff weight: * 66,000 lbs

*Radar: * AN/APG-79 AESA radar

*Sales Pitch: * According to Boeing, the Super Hornet's advanced capabilities and versatility mean it can be flown on a variety of missions. This strike fighter's control system gives it heightened maneuverability, and Boeing asserts that the plane's internal design makes it easy and affordable to upgrade.

Lockheed Martin F-16IN Super Viper 






*Entered service: * N/A

* Engine:/B] One GE F110-132A, producing up to 32,000 lbs of thrust

Max speed:  Mach 2.0 (Fighting Falcon)

 Maximum takeoff weight:/B] 48,000 lbs (Fighting Falcon)

Radar:  Northrop Grumman APG-80 AESA radar

Sales Pitch: Like the Gripen, the Super Viper, a modified version of the F-16 Fighting Falcon, can be built specifically to meet India's requirements. Not only does the Super Viper have a "robust upgrade capacity," according to Lockheed Martin, it also boasts the newest APG-80 AESA radar and the highest-thrust engine. Its APG-80 radar is designed with an all-weather precision targeting sensor for enhanced situational awareness and threat detection, while the good thrust-to-weight ratio makes it an agile aircraft.

Mikoyan MiG-35 






Introduced to public:  2005

Engine:  Two RD-33MKBs, producing up to 19,000 lbs of thrust

Max speed:  Mach 2.5

 Maximum takeoff weight: 65,500 lbs

Radar:  Zhuk-AM AESA radar

Sales Pitch:  With the MiG-35, you get the "possibility of advanced Russian and foreign origin weapons" and "increased combat survivability," according to the Russian Aircraft Corporation. The plane supplements its AESA radar with an optical locator system that uses photo analysis to identify targets without producing telltale emissions.


*

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Ruag

The Eurofighter Typhoons are the most advanced fighter jets in service after F-22 Raptors. Therefore, India must definitely select them even though they are considerably more expensive compared to others. Besides, through economies of scale, their price tag can be bought down. 

A typhoon armed with MBDA Meteor would make the IAF the major air force in Asia.


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## BRAHMOS

Ruag said:


> The Eurofighter Typhoons are the most advanced fighter jets in service after F-22 Raptors. Therefore, India must definitely select them even though they are considerably more expensive compared to others. Besides, through economies of scale, their price tag can be bought down.
> 
> A typhoon armed with MBDA Meteor would make the IAF the major air force in Asia.



Yes indeed, typhoon should be the one which would be best suitable for IAF


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## bones20

Nice post Beckham!

Our main requirements are:
1. AESA (rules out rafael)
2. Dual engine (rules our gripen, F-16)
3. Low cost of ownership
4. Strike/ground fighter

So we narrow down to:
1. MIG 35 : Cons: late delivery, immature AESA.
2. F/A 18: Cons: None
3. EF: Cons: Expensive

F/A 18 is the one.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## brahmastra

bones20 said:


> Nice post Beckham!
> 
> Our main requirements are:
> 1. AESA (rules out rafael)
> 2. Dual engine (rules our gripen, F-16)
> 3. Low cost of ownership
> 4. Strike/ground fighter
> 
> So we narrow down to:
> 1. MIG 35 : Cons: late delivery, immature AESA.
> 2. F/A 18: Cons: None
> 3. EF: Cons: Expensive
> 
> F/A 18 is the one.



Yes but we can stick to only initial order of ~126 planes then we can 'aford' EF. As HAL Tejas and FGFA are already in pipeline. and still more than 100 Su-30 MKI will join IAF.

So, according to me, either F-18 or EF will win the MRCA.

Both are good for ground attack.


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## sancho

bones20 said:


> Nice post Beckham!
> 
> 
> 
> Ruag said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Eurofighter Typhoons are the most advanced fighter jets in service after F-22 Raptors. *Therefore, India must definitely select them even though they are considerably more expensive compared to others.* Besides, through economies of scale, their price tag can be bought down.
> 
> A typhoon armed with MBDA Meteor would make the IAF the major air force in Asia.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes it is one of the most advanced fighter, but you are totally missing out that we already have a comparable air superiority fighter with the MKI and that we are developing a comparable fighter to F22.
> That is the main problem for EF, IAF don't really need it!
> The costs are a problem too, but can be countered with offset, commonality to LCA, or the benefit of such a partnership. The EF consortium knows quiet well that their chances to win are small if we just compare the aircrafts, because the A2G capabilities are still only under development (the pics you added shows weapon tests). That's why they offer so much help for LCA and other benefits that are not directly related to the fighter. They have to counter the disadvantages with other points in their favour, but I doubt that will be enough.
> It has too many funding problems at the moment, AESA comes only by 2013 and all capabilities are expected by 2016. IAF can't afford more delays in replacing the old fighters, or we risk more lives of our pilots.
> MMRCA winner must be clearly a fighter that will be a good addition to MKI and later FGFA, not another fighter in the same role.
> 
> 
> bones20 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nice post Beckham!
> Our main requirements are:
> 1. AESA (rules out rafael)
> 2. Dual engine (rules our gripen, F-16)
> 3. Low cost of ownership
> 4. Strike/ground fighter
> 
> So we narrow down to:
> 1. MIG 35 : Cons: late delivery, immature AESA.
> 2. F/A 18: Cons: None
> 3. EF: Cons: Expensive
> 
> F/A 18 is the one.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 1. Rafale is one of the few aircrafts which have AESA ready!
> 2. Dual engine is not a requirment, actually single engine were prefered at the beginning!
> 4. I think so too, but that would rule out Mig 35 and EF
> F18 no cons? What about less ToT, restrictions and controls, not sanction prove, high operational costs?
> 
> F18 is a frontrunner no doubt, but it won't be as easy as you think.
Click to expand...


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## Brahm0s

Friends can anyone tell me why would india waste over 10 to 12 billion dollars TO SATISFY PAKISTAN??? if india buys F-16IN than dont u think its advantage PAKISTAN??? F-16IN is new wine in old bottle. So do you think india sick head to buy it? Why pakistanis kept saying india will buy F-16IN? Lol but now even some indians here saying india would buy F-16IN. i think its nonsence to think about it lol. JSF-35? Nah. india dont need to buy old bird F-16IN. We can get F-35 anyway in future. America throwing F-16 and F-18 and will induct F-35. U want india to induct it by that time? Lol funny. Tough fight is between Rafael and typhoon. Both are my favoright jet fighters. i dont care which one india pick up. Both are lethel and deadly. Cheers.


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## notting hill

can anyone please tell me how the info i last posted suddenly got disappeared.. and i guess BRAHMOS had to retype his entire para again.. are we playing a game of hide and seek here brahmOs..


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## Brahm0s

notting hill said:


> can anyone please tell me how the info i last posted suddenly got disappeared.. and i guess BRAHMOS had to retype his entire para again.. are we playing a game of hide and seek here brahmOs..



Friend i dont know how your last info suddenly got dissapeared. i my self was on banned members list. So i had no idea about it. May be webmaster deleted it? Or may be it got dissapeard due to error. i think webmaster knows it or anyone who controlls this web site.


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## duhastmish

*Surprise !! surprise !!*


http://74.125.153.132/translate_c?hl=en&sl=ru&u=http://www.lenta.ru/news/2009/09/04/rafale/&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dlenta.ru%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG&rurl=translate.google.co.in&usg=ALkJrhgc6uzLUTodWQiqP4Ryv2UeoNLRNQ


*Brazil called the Rafale favorite tender to supply fighter*

The French proposal on the transfer of Brazilian production technologies Rafale fighter gives her "an exceptional comparative advantage" in the tender of the Air Forces of Brazil. This, according to Agence France-Presse, told reporters the president of the Latin American state Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva.

In an exclusive interview with interviewee said that "the country level, Brazil can not buy the products of another state without the transfer of technology." However, as noted by Da Silva, France has demonstrated that it is the most suitable partner in this plan, which gives Paris an advantage in the competition.

Agence France-Presse notes that on September 6, French President Nicolas Sarkozy is due to visit Brazil and to attend events marking the day of independence of this country. During the visit is planned to finalize another defense contract on the sale of Brazil French submarines and helicopters.

Recall that Brazil has announced a tender FX-2 for the purchase of new fighter in 2008. Russia Su-35 was out of it even at the initial stage, but at present, the competition has remained an American F/A-18, the Swedish Gripen NG and the French Rafale. On intention to refer Brazilians production technology of these machines in different conditions have all three states, although the French have made their proposal well before the Swedes and Americans.


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## sancho

Brahm0s said:


> if india buys F-16IN than dont u think its advantage PAKISTAN??? F-16IN is new wine in old bottle.


Yes it would be an advantage for PAF and PLAAF, because they have much experience with this fighters and the F16IN will only differ in avionics and engines to PAFs upg F16 block 50 and the new block 52. They will have the same weapons, the same airframe and even CFT are available for block 52 (not sure if block 50 can use them too). 
PLAAF gets experience with PAF F16 too and also got the Israeli Levi to develope a more improved, but similar fighter, the J10.
Another disadvantage could be, that we can share nearly nothing of F16IN with LCA, because the engine doesn't fit and the avionics should include techs of F35, so no way that US will offer us them, or even ToT of them. 
Even the offer of F35 later, if we take F16 IN now is useless, because we already co-develop an own 5. gen fighter and don't need F35.

F16 IN is a good fighter, but all these disadvantages makes it less likely for IAF!


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## Brahm0s

sancho said:


> Yes it would be an advantage for PAF and PLAAF, because they have much experience with this fighters and the F16IN will only differ in avionics and engines to PAFs upg F16 block 50 and the new block 52. They will have the same weapons, the same airframe and even CFT are available for block 52 (not sure if block 50 can use them too).
> PLAAF gets experience with PAF F16 too and also got the Israeli Levi to develope a more improved, but similar fighter, the J10.
> Another disadvantage could be, that we can share nearly nothing of F16IN with LCA, because the engine doesn't fit and the avionics should include techs of F35, so no way that US will offer us them, or even ToT of them.
> Even the offer of F35 later, if we take F16 IN now is useless, because we already co-develop an own 5. gen fighter and don't need F35.
> 
> F16 IN is a good fighter, but all these disadvantages makes it less likely for IAF!



Friend well said. Thats what am saying. Its bit funny what america was thinking when they piched F-16 (named 'IN' lol) against lethel top fighters like Typhoon, rafael and mig-35. It does make me laugh how most pakistanis and some indians saying F-16IN front runner lol. F-16IN aint got any chance (unless india ill mind and brainless lol). Even with F-18. Some say india might pick F-18 so navy can get F-35 in future. Question here is why would IAF pick F-18? To satisfy navy? Lol. i keep saying and will say that rafael front runner. Than its Typhoon and than mig-35. Rafael will benefit india alot. France ready to give india all india needs. Rafael my most favorighte fighter after typhoon. Fight is between rafael and typhoon. Cheers.


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## Sargodhian_Eagle

I thnk IAF will not go for F-16. IAF oprates twin engine powerfull AC. so competetion will remain between MiG-35, F-18 n EF.
I cant ignore MiG-35 coz IAF is operating MiG series for a long time.


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## sancho

Sargodhian_Eagle said:


> I thnk IAF will not go for F-16. IAF oprates twin engine powerfull AC. so competetion will remain between MiG-35, F-18 n EF.*
> I cant ignore MiG-35 coz IAF is operating MiG series for a long time.*


But that doesn't mean they still are useful for us right? Compared to the other fighters and their capabilities the Mig is clearly inferior.


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## DaRk WaVe

yup EF with wide range of weapon package especially METEOR & couple it with assistance EADS is ready to give for LCA Mk2 + EJ-200
is the probably the best option for IAF


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## Ghazy

EF will certainly make InAf, the deadliest of the region.
But politically, if I were Indian I will vote for F-18.


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## inferno

How about gripen. It also looks cool with supercruise


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## aanshu001

Lockheed begins F-16 trials for Indian Air Force

Bangalore: US aerospace major Lockheed Martin on Monday began flying its three fighter F-16s in Bangalore for trials of the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRC).

The Indian Air Force (IAF) wants to buy these aircrafts to replace its ageing MiG-21 fleet.

"The field trials will be conducted in Bangalore, Jaisalmer and Leh till September 18 in different conditions. We had the training phase from September 3 to September 5 in preparation for the trials," Lockheed's international communications manager John Giese told IANS.

The trials near Jaisalmer in Rajasthan and Leh in Jammu and Kashmir next week will be to test the fighters in hot weather conditions and in high-altitude mountain ranges.

The three F-16s, which are in service with the United Arab Emirates (UAE) Air Force and stationed at Dubai air base, flew into Bangalore on September 2, with Lockheed test pilots, US Air Force pilots and a team of engineers and technicians, for the 12-day trials.

"The fighters landed two days behind schedule due to inclement weather and operational reasons. The training phase included familiarising the IAF's evaluation teams with the aircraft's capabilities and technologies, especially its latest electronic warfare and navigational aids," Giese said.

During the training phase, the fighters were stationed at the state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) airport on the outskirts of the city.

Demonstration of the aircraft, ability of its various systems and the glass cockpit were held at the IAF's Aircraft Systems & Training Establishment (ASTE) complex, which is adjacent to the HAL airstrip.

"As part of the trial preparation, all the three F-16s took to skies twice a day on hour-long sorties despite cloudy weather and intermittent rains from September 3 to September 5. They flew mostly in south-westerly direction towards Mysore," a senior air traffic control (ATC) official told IANS on Sunday.

IAF's test pilots flew with Lockheed's test pilots in the tandem twin-seater for a firsthand 'feel' of the aircraft and its ability to manoeuvre for combat operations.

Though the advanced fourth generation F-16s participating in the trials are not 'Super Viper', they are closest to the new version the company will offer to the IAF if it wins the estimated $10 billion order for the 126 planes.

"The F-16IN Super Viper will be tailor-made to meet the requirements of the IAF and will be the ultimate fourth generation fighter," Giese claimed.

According to Michael R Griswold, Lockheed director, the F-16s, with fifth generation capabilities, will demonstrate to the IAF their striking power, speed, accuracy and its awesome 360-degree manoeuvres, with its sophisticated active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar.

The other five aircraft in the fray for the order are Boeing's F/A-181N Super Hornet, the Dassault Rafale, the Saab Gripen, the Russian MiG-35 and the European consortium EADS Eurofighter Typhoon.

As per the global tender floated last year, the winning bidder will have to deliver 18 aircrafts in fly-away condition, while the remaining 108 will be manufactured by HAL under a technology transfer deal.

The F-16 trials are taking place three weeks after Boeing flew in its two Super Hornets August 14 and conducted trials for about 10 days from August 17 in Bangalore, Jaisalmer and Leh.

"Initially, the IAF pilots will co-pilot the aircraft, taking controls mid-air after familiarising themselves with the systems and the advanced navigation aids. In the subsequent trials, the IAF pilots will take command of the aircraft for evaluating its various parameters, including the use of weapons," a Lockheed official said.

The IAF has formed twin teams of two test pilots each for the trials, which will be conducted in three stages: pilot familiarisation, field trials and weapons systems trials. The third stage will be conducted in the country of manufacture.

The technical evaluation was completed early this year after the six manufacturers responded to the IAF's Request for Proposal (RFP) in August 2007.

link: Lockheed begins F-16 trials for Indian Air Force


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## sancho

Ghazy said:


> EF will certainly make InAf, the deadliest of the region.
> But politically, if I were Indian I will vote for F-18.


Actually the combination of MKI with any MMRCA will make IAF to one of the best in the region, because no other AF has so many so capable fighters. 
Politically the US fighters are likely, but I still hope for a more independent, European choice.


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## Brahm0s

Ghazy said:


> EF will certainly make InAf, the deadliest of the region.
> But politically, if I were Indian I will vote for F-18.



Friend thats funny when u said 'if i were indian i will vote for F-18'. Would you like to tell me why? Anyway i knew the reason. Its because you are not indian lol. The fight is between rafael and typhoon. Cheers.


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## Brahm0s

Sargodhian_Eagle said:


> I thnk IAF will not go for F-16. IAF oprates twin engine powerfull AC. so competetion will remain between MiG-35, F-18 n EF.
> I cant ignore MiG-35 coz IAF is operating MiG series for a long time.



Friend why kept rafael out? So pakistan can pick them if india dont? Lol. Rafael front runner. i dont think india would go for mig-35. We buying 50 more sukhoi-30MKI plus Pak-fa too indo-russian. Mig-35 wont benefit india just like sukhoi-30MKI. russia didn't gave engine technology to us. What mig-35 will give? France ready to give us engines technology. So rafael front runner. Cheers.


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## sancho

*Super Viper aircraft weapons testing in Rajasthan*

Weapons testing of the F-16 IN Super Viper aircraft for the MMRCA (Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft) purchase trials of the IAF will be carried out in the deserts near Jaisalmer in Rajasthan.

Michael Griswold, director, advanced development programmes, Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company, revealed this to the TNS during an interview here. Orville Prins, Vice-President, business development for India, and Jack Giese, a senior Lockheed Martin (LM) manager, were also present. Officials of the American aeronautics giant, which is the largest supplier of hardware to the US air force, are here in connection with the evaluation by the IAF of the Super Viper, a fourth-generation fighter aircraft from the LM stable.

The IAF had earlier said weapon testing of the six shortlisted bidders would take place in the countries of their origins to avoid legal tangles and unavailability of the infrastructure necessary for carrying out the tests. It could not be immediately confirmed if the LM was the only bidder to have made arrangements for weapon testing in India. The Super Viper team will shift base to Rajasthan toward the end of this month. F/A-18E/F Super Hornet of the Boeing, the Russian MiG 35, the Swedish JAS 39 Gripen, the Eurofighter Typhoon (manufactured by an European consortium) and the French Rafale are the other competitors in the race.

On the presence of F-16 aircraft in the Pakistani air force, Griswold said the aircraft being offered to India had been tailor made for the IAF. The IAF had specified what they were looking for and the aircraft is equipped to meet those requirements, he said. He said a unique feature of Super Viper is the AESA (active electronically steered array) radar. The radar, apart from tracking enemy targets, will also help the pilot in carrying out low flying missions.

Test pilots of the IAF are now working on simulators at the Aircraft and System Training Establishment (ASTE) here to get familiarised with the Super Viper control system. This will be followed by actual flying of the aircraft by IAF pilots together with the LM test pilots. Three Super Vipers, having tandem seating arrangements, have been flown to Bangalore from UAE for this purpose. The IAF pilot will sit in the front cockpit and our pilot will handle the rear control. Solo flying by IAF pilots of Super Vipers will take place in the US in early 2010, Griswold said.

The IAF had earlier placed order with the Lockheed Martin for supplying six C-130J Super Hercules transport aircraft. These aircraft would be given to the IAF in 2011, the officials said. The MMRCA contract for supplying 126 fighter jets to the IAF is worth Rs 42,000 crore (US$ 10.5 billion). It is said to be the single largest defence deal ever in the history of IAF.

ASIAN DEFENCE: Super Viper aircraft weapons testing in Rajasthan


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## sancho

If the translation is correct it seems like Rafale got it's first export customer!

Sarkozy assiste a desfile militar em Brasília e assina acordo bilionário com governo brasileiro - O Globo



> *BRASILIA - Brazil will buy it from France Rafale fighters for the Brazilian Air Force (FAB).*
> 
> A joint statement released by the two governments confirmed to be 36 combat aircraft. With the announcement, closing up the selection process done by the FAB, the program called FX-2. They lost the race the Swedish Gripen fighter and American F18. The decision was taken during a meeting of President Luiz Inacio da Silva with his French counterpart Nicolas Sarkozy at the presidential palace. The value of the purchase of 36 Rafale fighters was not disclosed, but the estimate was over £ 3.8 billion.
> 
> The note also states that France intends to acquire aircraft from Brazil, making the two countries' strategic partners also in the field of aviation. " "Sarkozy announced that Lula intends to acquire a dozen units of the future military transport aircraft, KC-390 (cargo aircraft to Brazil's Embraer to develop) and expressed the willingness of French industrialists to contribute to the development of the aircraft program," the statement said.
> 
> Sarkozy, who arrived in Brazil on Sunday evening, attended Monday to show the Seven September on the Esplanade of Ministries, in Brasilia, as guest of honor. Lula came to the parade in presidential Rolls Royce, accompanied by first lady, Mrs. Marisa, after reviewing the troops. Then the president went to the grandstand, located near the Ministry of Defense, for military ceremony. About 3.6 thousand people attended the parade.
> 
> French President came to Brazil to sign another agreement, worth 6.1 billion euros, which provides for the purchase of four submarines and a fleet of helicopters for FAB. It is also expected to transfer technology to the construction by the Navy's submarine nuclear-powered.
> 
> The military cooperation agreement between Brazil and France opened the ambitious program of modernization of the Armed Forces. By 2020, Brazil will have the largest and most powerful naval force in Latin America, equipped with submarines, frigates, light vessels, corvettes - an estimated volume of 35 units - as well as long-range missiles, torpedoes, airplanes and helicopters, advanced technology .
> 
> The military parade in Brasilia was not climate-only party. At the end of the parade, about 50 students from the University of Brasilia tried to reach the podium of the authorities with banners calling for the departure of Senate President José Sarney, but were restrained by police. At this time, Lula and Sarkozy had already left the site. The presence of Sarkozy part of the program of the French Year in Brazil.

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## Born In The USA

Go Eurofighter
It looks brilliant with the su 30.

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## sancho

Born In The USA said:


> Go Eurofighter
> It looks brilliant with the su 30.


Looks good, but sadly comes not fully developed and the risk of further delays.


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## sancho

*Rafale for Brazil!*

It is officially confirmed now and I just saw the press conference related to the deal, where the brazilian president said that Rafale was choses, *because Brazil wanted to have their fighters under their own control without beeing too dependent *and the offer of France with much ToT enables that!
That is imo a very important point and says much about F18SH and Gripen NG who was the loser of that competition. Not because they were not capable enough, but because they were not independent enough, which should be a major requirement for India too!
We cannot just change the dependence from Russia to dependence on America and at least 126 fighter (possibly more and for commonality maybe even US engine in LCA) will be a big part of the fleet.


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## sudhir007

:: Bharat-Rakshak.com - Indian Military News Headlines ::

BANGALORE: Lockheed Martin&#8217;s F-16 Super Viper IN which is one of the five aircraft competing to bag the $10 billion Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) contract of the Indian Air Force, has completed phase I of field trials in Bangalore.


Lockheed Martin officials said that the phase I of field trials was over and the week-long training phase was in preparation for further field trials.

Phase II of field trials begins on September 7 and will last two weeks, added officials.

The Boeing F/A-18IN Super Hornet has already completed trails. EADS Eurofighter Typhoon, Russian MiG-35, Sweden&#8217;s Grippen and Dassault Aviation&#8217;s Rafale are the other contenders.


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## Gabbar

Sweden's SAAB offers advanced radar with Gripen combat jet​
​(Source: IANS)
Published: Wed, 09 Sep 2009 at 14:55 ISTF Prev Next LNew Delhi: 
*The race for an Indian Air Force (IAF) order for 126 combat jets in a deal worth $10 billion just got more interesting with Swedish plane maker SAAB offering an advanced version of a state-of-the-art radar with its Gripen fighter and also the wherewithal to enable its programming here. *
*"What we are offering is a second generation AESA (advanced extended search array radar) that incorporates a swishplate that enables it to rotate and considerably enhances its capabilities over the existing radar," Gripen International's India director Eddy de la Motte told reporters Wednesday. *

*"The radar will come with its software source code." *​
The software source code has been a sticky point, with at least two of the six manufacturers in the race for the IAF order, which could go up to 200 planes, expressing reservations on transferring this to India. 


Without the code, the IAF would be dependent on the manufacturer who is selected for the order for programming the radar, thus impinging on the country's national security, a defence analyst pointed out. 


Listing the other advantages of the single-engined Gripen, whose IN version is currently on offer to be followed by the NG (next generation) version, de la Motte pointed to its low lifecycle costs, quick turnaround time, quick engine replacement time, advanced avionics and the fact that the IAF could install a weapons suite of is choice on the aircraft. 

"In terms of costs, including the life cycle cost, the *Gripen is 50 percent cheaper that the other single-engined aircraft *(in the fray) and 25 percent cheaper that the double-engined aircraft (in contention)," the SAAB official pointed out. 

While the IAF has already begun its flight evaluation trials of the six jets in the running, it is yet to resolve the contentious issue of whether it wants a single-engined or a twin-engined aircraft. 

When the IAF first floated its Request For Information (RFI), it was looking for a replacement for its aging Soviet-era Mig-21, a single engined fighter. 

Of the six aircraft now in contention, only two - the Gripen and the Lockheed Martin F-16IN Super Viper - are single engined. The other four - the Boeing F/A-18 Super Hornet, the French Rafale, the Eurofighter Typhoon built by a European conglomerate and the Russian Mig-35 - are twin-engined. 

*The SAAB official pointed out that the Gripen was the only aircraft that provided the IAF the opportunity to select the weapons of its choice. *

*"With the other manufacturers, the IAF will have to take the weapons the aircraft comes with. With the Gripen, the IAF can chose from the best that is available in the international market," de la Motte maintained. *

The flight trials, being conducted in humid conditions in Bangalore, desert conditions in Jaisalmer and high-altitude conditions in Leh, will conclude in March 2010. Thereafter, the field will be narrowed down to two or three aircraft, after which the price negotiations will begin, with the first of the planes arriving in 2012-13. 


Eighteen of the aircraft will be purchased in flyaway condition and the remaining will be manufactured by state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) under a transfer of technology agreement.

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## sancho

Gabbar said:


> *"What we are offering is a second generation AESA (advanced extended search array radar) that incorporates a swishplate that enables it to rotate and considerably enhances its capabilities over the existing radar," Gripen International's India director Eddy de la Motte told reporters Wednesday. *
> 
> *"The radar will come with its software source code." *​
> The software source code has been a sticky point, with at least two of the six manufacturers in the race for the IAF order, which could go up to 200 planes, expressing reservations on transferring this to India.


Interesting, but can they really provide ToT and source codes of the AESA? They are not developing it on their own and 2 times before other nations shows how dependent Sweden is from other countries. I doubt that US and LM allows that, which will reduce the chances for F16 IN.


Gabbar said:


> *The SAAB official pointed out that the Gripen was the only aircraft that provided the IAF the opportunity to select the weapons of its choice. *
> 
> *"With the other manufacturers, the IAF will have to take the weapons the aircraft comes with. With the Gripen, the IAF can chose from the best that is available in the international market," de la Motte maintained. *


That means that not only US weapons could be used like it might be the case at F16IN and F18SH, but also all european and sometimes it was stated even Russian.


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## Born In The USA

IAF Wants Extra Radar Mode On MMRCA AESAs

For all the stated technological advancements present in the only two operational AESA radars competing in the MMRCA competition, the Indian Air Force has informed the two principle integrators (Boeing and Lockheed-Martin respectively) that radar modes available on the Northrop-Grumman AN/APG-80 radar (F-16IN) and the Raytheon AN/APG-79 (F/A-18E/F) do not include a specific one that the IAF refuses to do without: the "weather radar mode". Though both Boeing and Lockheed-Martin tried to convince the IAF that their respective radars (and integrated avionics) were built to provide data and flightpath solutions through, over or around bad weather, the IAF has insisted that it wants the AESAs offered with a traditional weather radar mode as a separate mode option. The default modes demanded by the IAF, excluding interleaved and data-fused modes, are air-to-air search, air-to-air track, ocean surface search, synthetic aperture radar (SAR) mapping, ground/sea target indicator and track and active beam mapping.

Lockheed-Martin has made it official now that the APG-80 radar will therefore undergo a certain amount of further development work to meet the IAF's requirement. This applies to Raytheon as well.

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## warlock21

some days back on DD News retired commodore Uday Bhaskar had said tht IAFs role in this deal is to :-

1. Make requirements.

2. Test the fighters Jets as per its req.

3. and finally submit the report to GoI.. thts it.

IAF has nothing to do with how much it will cost... and from here it comes from.

The real thing is still in the Hands of GoI... because they take the decision on the basis of:-

1. What kind of political and strategic mileage they can have from the provider country.

2. our past relations with them and our future with them.

3. Whether they can able to provide us full support in terms of ToT for development of LCA... and other such platforms..etc.


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## Gabbar

*Another thing is that Brazil is going to buy 24 Rafaels for $7.2 Billion dollars. How the hell we suppose to get 126 in $12 Billions.*


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## Adios Amigo

Gabbar said:


> *Another thing is that Brazil is going to buy 24 Rafaels for $7.2 Billion dollars. How the hell we suppose to get 126 in $12 Billions.*



wat,,,,,,,,, 24 Rafaels for $7.2 Billion ,,, wat the hell is rafaels price now, has it even gone higher then raptor,, i think your figures are wrong.


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## ISRO2

Gabbar said:


> *Another thing is that Brazil is going to buy 24 Rafaels for $7.2 Billion dollars. How the hell we suppose to get 126 in $12 Billions.*



Sir that might be a joke. 24 rafaels cost 7.2 billion dollars? Thats like 360 million dollars each rafael? Ha ha. Sir thats impossible.


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## Hulk

Last I heard Brazil was buying 100 not 24 so that might answer your question


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## amunhotep

sancho said:


> But that doesn't mean they still are useful for us right? Compared to the other fighters and their capabilities the Mig is clearly inferior.



 

I beg your pardon ????? are you serious ????

the MiG-35 is the most superior in terms of technology among the contenders

and something tells me that you know this fact . Clearly there must be some vested interest behind your comment. let me guess , you are pushing for the Eurofighter aren't you ?????


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## sancho

Gabbar said:


> *Another thing is that Brazil is going to buy 24 Rafaels for $7.2 Billion dollars. How the hell we suppose to get 126 in $12 Billions.*


36 is the least number that Brazil will procure and in such small numbers the unit price is of course higher than for 126 like in our competition. For example Australia ordered only 24 F18SH for a total cost of $4.6 billion, which means nearly $191 million each! 
Anyway, the Brazilian AF has a requirement of over 100 new fighters, so there might be more optional and the fact that France offers similar ToT like they offer us, hints to a lincence production of more fighters.
Latest reports btw says, that the competition is still not really over, although the Brazilian president stated it officially and some other deals around this for some helicopters and assistance of french companies in KC390 development (transport aircraft comparable to Indo-Russian MTA) could be sealed too. But Saab and Boeing wants to make new and better offers and hopes to get back in the competition, but as independence seems to be a major requirement of Brazil it is doubtful that the F18SH and Gripen NG can provide this.


amunhotep said:


> I beg your pardon ????? are you serious ????
> 
> the MiG-35 is the most superior in terms of technology among the contenders
> 
> and something tells me that you know this fact . Clearly there must be some vested interest behind your comment. let me guess , you are pushing for the Eurofighter aren't you ?????


Actually I am for Rafale, because it offers the best package, but that has nothing to do with the fact that the Mig is not a good fighter for us. 
I wonder what superior techs that could be? Even compared to our actual Mig 29, it offers only AESA radar, IRST and the TVC nozzels as really new techs. The upg Mig 29 will have PESA radar and latest reports also talks of TVC, so where is the big difference? If you compare the Mig 35 with our MKI you will mainly find only a single advantage, the lower RCS because of smaller size. But if the reports of MKI upg are true, even this avantage is gone.
If Mig 35 is not even much superior to our actual fighters, how should it be better than fighters with RCS below 1, high performance AESA radars (Mig 35 AESA is only average, compared to others) and avionics, engines that provides supercruise capabilities, missiles like Meteor, more payload and weapon stations and so on.
Count on it, IAF will just upg the older Mig 29 with TVC nozzels and hopefully with the Mig 35 AESA. The only real Mig 35 we might buy, will be for IN, because the Mig 29K and KUB have already the same airframe, engine and I think IRST. They only have to upg the PESA into AESA and fit the TVC nozzels at the engine and you will have Mig 35K and KUB.


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## BSF

> Actually I am for Rafale, because it offers the best package, but that has nothing to do with the fact that the Mig is not a good fighter for us.
> I wonder what superior techs that could be? Even compared to our actual Mig 29, it offers only AESA radar, IRST and the TVC nozzels as really new techs. The upg Mig 29 will have PESA radar and latest reports also talks of TVC, so where is the big difference? If you compare the Mig 35 with our MKI you will mainly find only a single advantage, the lower RCS because of smaller size. But if the reports of MKI upg are true, even this avantage is gone.
> If Mig 35 is not even much superior to our actual fighters, how should it be better than fighters with RCS below 1, high performance AESA radars (Mig 35 AESA is only average, compared to others) and avionics, engines that provides supercruise capabilities, missiles like Meteor, more payload and weapon stations and so on.
> Count on it, IAF will just upg the older Mig 29 with TVC nozzels and hopefully with the Mig 35 AESA. The only real Mig 35 we might buy, will be for IN, because the Mig 29K and KUB have already the same airframe, engine and I think IRST. They only have to upg the PESA into AESA and fit the TVC nozzels at the engine and you will have Mig 35K and KUB.


So by your logic, How is Rafel better than Su 30 MKI again?
And by the way ..I too am rooting for MIG 35 (MKI version ofcourse)


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## Born In The USA

Super Viper: F-16IN aircrafts tailored to meet IAF's needs

Bangalore: As the race for bagging the USD 10-billion Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft order from India hots up, US aerospace major Lockheed Martin on Monday raised its sales pitch saying its fighter plane, F-16IN, is tailored exclusively to meet the IAF's requirements.

"The F-16IN is the right choice for the Indian Air Force and is ready for integration to India's infrastructure and operations now," Jack Giese, Lockheed's International Communication Manager, told reporters in Bangalore.

IAF had recently conducted flight evaluation and performance trials in Bangalore for six foreign defence firms, including Lockheed Martin's F-16IN Super Viper, vying to bag the order for 126 MMRCAs.

The Super Viper has the most advanced technologies and capabilities available today on the international market, including the Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) Radar, net-centric warfare capability, advanced survivability features, a modern all-digital glass cockpit, Jim Benson Hedge, the pilot who has 2000 hrs of flying the F-16, said.

The radar is a revolutionary all-weather precision targeting sensor with ultra-high resolution synthetic aperture mapping and automatic terrain following and air to air tracking of multiple targets, the company said.

Benson said the fighter not only meets the IAF requirements but also exceeds some of them. "It gives a pilot more time to make the best decisions"

On the chances of winning the order, Jack said "We are extremely confident of our product".

Super Viper: F-16IN aircrafts tailored to meet IAF`s needs


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## Tejas-MkII

BSF said:


> So by your logic, How is Rafel better than Su 30 MKI again?
> And by the way ..I too am rooting for MIG 35 (MKI version ofcourse)



i am rooting for rafale..

because we can get technology of M-88 eco core ,which we can put in kaveri in place of kabini core..


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## MZUBAIR

Born In The USA said:


> Super Viper: F-16IN aircrafts tailored to meet IAF's needs
> 
> Bangalore: As the race for bagging the USD 10-billion Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft order from India hots up, US aerospace major Lockheed Martin on Monday raised its sales pitch saying its fighter plane, F-16IN, is tailored exclusively to meet the IAF's requirements.
> 
> "The F-16IN is the right choice for the Indian Air Force and is ready for integration to India's infrastructure and operations now," Jack Giese, Lockheed's International Communication Manager, told reporters in Bangalore.
> 
> IAF had recently conducted flight evaluation and performance trials in Bangalore for six foreign defence firms, including Lockheed Martin's F-16IN Super Viper, vying to bag the order for 126 MMRCAs.
> 
> The Super Viper has the most advanced technologies and capabilities available today on the international market, including the Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) Radar, net-centric warfare capability, advanced survivability features, a modern all-digital glass cockpit, Jim Benson Hedge, the pilot who has 2000 hrs of flying the F-16, said.
> 
> The radar is a revolutionary all-weather precision targeting sensor with ultra-high resolution synthetic aperture mapping and automatic terrain following and air to air tracking of multiple targets, the company said.
> 
> Benson said the fighter not only meets the IAF requirements but also exceeds some of them. "It gives a pilot more time to make the best decisions"
> 
> On the chances of winning the order, Jack said "We are extremely confident of our product".
> 
> Super Viper: F-16IN aircrafts tailored to meet IAF`s needs



Not good for Pakistan, If IAF gets F-16.


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## Tejas-MkII

MZUBAIR said:


> Not good for Pakistan, If IAF gets F-16.



Not good for pakistan if IAF get any of these 6 aircraft in nmubers from126-200(may be)...

---------- Post added at 12:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:24 PM ----------




MZUBAIR said:


> Not good for Pakistan, If IAF gets F-16.



Not good for pakistan if IAF get any of these 6 aircraft in numbers from126-200(may be)...


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## ejaz007

I believe it shall be good in the long run for PAF if IAF selects a US plane. US is not a reliable partner and is known to ditch at the most inconvenient of times.

Also there shall be inventory and training related issues. Technology is also different from Russian and Indians would need a lot of time to absorb it.


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## Stealth

MZUBAIR said:


> Not good for Pakistan, If IAF gets F-16.



IAF not intrested in F16s by the way because atleast required 10-15 Years for xpertizz on any aircraft and Pakistani Pilots Rolling over F16s.

About F18.. let see 

Point is very clear right now America Needs India (for achieve thr Goals actually thats why H clinton visited India) same when American needs pakistan (History call) 1980 State of art weapon supply F16 @ 1980s Why ?? becaause of thr own goals. But if India go for Rafele or Euro thats good decision (in India point of view) because Russian 30 series already thy have Next Most Advance fighter in thr fleet and good relation with Europeans (especially better thn Americans). 

Let see.

US Objective (counter China n Pakistan through India)

If India kick n *** Americans thn American loose its regional control over Asia.. if Pakistan also do the same anyway


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## Born In The USA

I'm Not sure if this vid belongs here but it is one of my favorite eurofighter typhoon videos

Bugatti Veyron vs EuroFighter Typhoon- Top Gear

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## sancho

BSF said:


> So by your logic, How is Rafel better than Su 30 MKI again?
> And by the way ..I too am rooting for MIG 35 (MKI version ofcourse)


Way lower RCS (below 1 vs. 10 - 13) and even the upg MKI won't counter that advantage. Surviveability, low RCS combined with latest EWS and defense systems makes it clearly favourable in any Sead, or strike mission. A2G weapons, the MKI has a good payload and a variety of weapons, but most of them are unguided, Rafale instead can use AASM, or Paveway PGMs and a variety of european and US weapons. Which was the great advantage of Mirage 2000 in Kargil for example, where our Russian fighters wasn't able of guided strikes. Also if we can use all Russian weapons already with MKI, where is the advantage of Mig 35 useing the same, but with less payload and less variety?
The combination of MKI (exellent in a2a) and Rafale (exellent in a2g) would give clearly more advantages to IAF than, MKI and Mig 35. 
And don't forget all the delays we faced with Gorshkov, A50 Phalcons, or Mig 29 upg now and Mig already admit that Mig 35 will be delayed, so do we really want to go on like that?


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## sancho

*Lockheed Launches Attack On Gripen's MMRCA Campaign*

The gloves are off, not that they were ever on. Just a few days after Gripen held a well-reported press conference in Delhi last week, Lockheed-Martin has hit out at the Swedish plane-maker's campaign for India's $10.2-billion medium multirole combat aircraft (MMRCA) competition. At a reception for Lockheed-Martin's new India head Roger Rose, there was lots of talk on Gripen country head Eddy de la Motte's repeated affirmation that there would be "total transfer of technology" if the Gripen was selected. Lockheed-Martin Vice President (Business Development, India) Orville Prins told journalists that the Gripen campaign's assertion that there would be 100 per cent ToT was "dishonest and inaccurate".

*Prins pointed out that with an admitted 35 per cent of the Gripen being made up by American components and systems, there was no way that the Swedes could trumpet full transfer of technology, simply because a full transfer of technology would mean formal release of the said technology by the US government, which may or may not be forthcoming.* "Without formal sanction for technology release, it simply not honest to say you can transfer all technology. It is plainly false," Prins said.

Like I said, the gloves are off, and even the world's biggest aerospace firm feels the heat sometime or other. The F-16IN campaign considers itself seriously threatened by the Gripen IN's concerted effort to fritter out American content. It's interesting how Lockheed-Martin would also rely on a political leash on the Swedes, rather than concentrate its effort on attacking its competitors on technology. But then again, even the Swedes know this isn't a meat and potatoes campaign.


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## ISRO2

sancho said:


> *Lockheed Launches Attack On Gripen's MMRCA Campaign*
> 
> The gloves are off, not that they were ever on. Just a few days after Gripen held a well-reported press conference in Delhi last week, Lockheed-Martin has hit out at the Swedish plane-maker's campaign for India's $10.2-billion medium multirole combat aircraft (MMRCA) competition. At a reception for Lockheed-Martin's new India head Roger Rose, there was lots of talk on Gripen country head Eddy de la Motte's repeated affirmation that there would be "total transfer of technology" if the Gripen was selected. Lockheed-Martin Vice President (Business Development, India) Orville Prins told journalists that the Gripen campaign's assertion that there would be 100 per cent ToT was "dishonest and inaccurate".
> 
> *Prins pointed out that with an admitted 35 per cent of the Gripen being made up by American components and systems, there was no way that the Swedes could trumpet full transfer of technology, simply because a full transfer of technology would mean formal release of the said technology by the US government, which may or may not be forthcoming.* "Without formal sanction for technology release, it simply not honest to say you can transfer all technology. It is plainly false," Prins said.
> 
> Like I said, the gloves are off, and even the world's biggest aerospace firm feels the heat sometime or other. The F-16IN campaign considers itself seriously threatened by the Gripen IN's concerted effort to fritter out American content. It's interesting how Lockheed-Martin would also rely on a political leash on the Swedes, rather than concentrate its effort on attacking its competitors on technology. But then again, even the Swedes know this isn't a meat and potatoes campaign.



Sir that makes gripen out of compitetion and with F-16IN and F-18 indirectly.


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## sancho

ISRO2 said:


> Sir that makes gripen out of compitetion and with F-16IN and F-18 indirectly.


Lets say less likely, but this was clear from the beginning that Gripens high dependance and less political benefits will be the main disadvantages. It was always the most cost-effective choice, but I doubt that will really be a reason for IAF, or MoD.


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## gogbot

sancho said:


> Lets say less likely, but this was clear from the beginning that Gripens high dependance and less political benefits will be the main disadvantages. It was always the most cost-effective choice, but I doubt that will really be a reason for IAF, or MoD.



IAF is not concerned about cost.
Only what best meets their requirements.
their choice is also made public

GOI is responsible for budgeting and political decisions. they are the deciders. and will base it around IAF's recommendations.

Mind you this decision will also depend a lot on The LCA project and what engine that is using.

Will be first for the euro fighter typhoon
and then F/A-18 SH or F-16 IN (only with full tot)
And finally Rafael


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## PakShaheen79

I think India will go for F-18SH. Just a guess


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## Tejas-MkII

I think India will go for Typhoon or Rafale. Just a guess


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## Haanzo

MAN ARE YOU CRAZY?????




sancho said:


> *Way lower RCS (below 1 vs. 10 - 13) and even the upg MKI won't counter that advantage*.
> 
> I agree to the rcs point but your figures are not accurate do you know that RAM coatings are used on the MKI and the rcs is close to 2.7-3 sq m ----by your words you dont believe russians use ram coatings---wake up and smell the coffee
> 
> 
> Surviveability, low RCS combined with latest EWS and defense systems makes it clearly favourable in any Sead, or strike mission. *A2G weapons, the MKI has a good payload and a variety of weapons, but most of them are unguided, Rafale instead can use AASM, or Paveway PGMs and a variety of european and US weapons*.
> 
> stop watching discovery ---- it sounds harsh but it is
> do you have any idea of the number of guided munitions in the indian arsenal of russian origin -----guided munitions does not mean paveway .do you know of an indian LGB in production called sudarshan ???? in the 1000 pound class--i bet you dont
> 
> and lastly iaf has a 4.5 generation fighter and how could you believe they wont have bought guided munitions,are they so dumb
> 
> Which was the great advantage of Mirage 2000 in Kargil for example, where our Russian fighters wasn't able of guided strikes.
> 
> i agree to this point but india DID NOT HAVE GUIDED MUNITIONS ,when the war started we scrambled for paveway lgb KITS they were bought from U.S. AND no more than a dozen were used -------- this is the fact that made iaf to go for the MKI
> 
> Also if we can use all Russian weapons already with MKI, where is the advantage of Mig 35 useing the same, but with less payload and less variety?
> *The combination of MKI (exellent in a2a)* MKI is a MULTIROLE FIGHTER ,WHICH IS EXCELLENT IN A2A AND ITS HUGE PAYLOAD MAKES IT AWESOME IN A2G
> and Rafale (exellent in a2g) would give clearly more advantages to IAF than, MKI and Mig 35.
> mig-35 or rafale ---the choice is left for the iaf but i would personally like the rafale but mig-35 would be the fastest and the cheapest chioce -----HOW??...lets say they have used mig-29 for 20 years and they know the platform very well so tactics and ease of integration will be the highest ,the existing weapons CAN BE USED and not to forget 9 new missiles and guided munitions being offered ---the can also be used on the mki
> they are KH-29T/TE TV-GUIDED A2G
> KH-38MLE,MKE,MAE,MTE A2G
> KH-59MK2 A2G
> KAB-500Kr TV-GUIDED a2g
> KAB 500S-E satnav guided(GPS) a2g
> kab-500LG-F-E LASER GUIDED a2g
> 3M-14AE active radar guided cruise missile
> KH-31 SERIES anti ship ,a2g
> KH-35 SERIES anti ship
> 
> And don't forget all the delays we faced with Gorshkov, A50 Phalcons, or Mig 29 upg now and Mig already admit that Mig 35 will be delayed, so do we really want to go on like that?
> AS I SAID EARLIER IAF AND THE GOVT IS TO DECIDE EITHER WAY ITS A WIN-WIN SITUATION FOR THE IAF IN CASE OF THE RAFALE OR THE EF-2000 OR THE MIG-35



on thing that really ticked me off is your ignorance towards russian munitions and the capabilites of the MKI---IT HAS A RAM COATING...,IT IS A MULTI ROLE FIGHTERit has a wide weapons choice similar to paveway series


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## Udhaya

In my opinion its not going to be one fighter but combination of fighters.

Russian MIG 35 will be purchased separately but not through this deal.


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## sudhir007

:: Bharat-Rakshak.com - Indian Military News Headlines ::

General Electric (GE), which is in contention as the engine supplier for the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) contract of the IAF with three of its engines, is keen on sourcing components from Indian industry.
GE said, it will manufacture, assemble and test the engine, if any of its partner wins the contract, at the Hindusthan Aeronautics Limited (HAL). The global engine manufacturing behemoth said it will get many of its engine components manufactured by local firms. GE&#8217;s F110-GE-132 turbofan engine powers the F-16 IN, which Lockheed Martin is seeking to sell to India.
The F-16 IN is one of the contenders for the MMRCA contract for the supply of 126 aircraft. The F110-GE-132 turbofan engine developed by the GE, and which will power the F-16 IN, was originally developed for the United Arab Emirates F-16E/F. The engine has a thrust of 32,000 pounds, which is considered as little on the higher side for a small aircraft like the F-16. This extra power makes it possible for the F-16 IN to carry more armaments.
More than 3,000 F110 engines have been ordered since the US Air Force first selected the engine in 1984. Till, now over 3,000 of these engines have been mounted on various airframes including the F14, F15 and F-16, since 1984.
&#8220;the firm will tailor the engine for Indian configurations,&#8221; said Philip G Woniger, program manager, F110-GE-132, GE Aviation. Customisations for the engines that will power the F-16 IN will include durability core.
The engine produces 170 reports that guide the engine maintainers


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## sudhir007

Udhaya said:


> In my opinion its not going to be one fighter but combination of fighters.
> 
> Russian MIG 35 will be purchased separately but not through this deal.


Then why we purchase extra 50 MKI. coze Russian happy with this(they know Mig-35 can not win and India dnt want to Russian unhappy coze we have best of Russian plane in our inventory why we choose that plane which has no future) deal and now we can go for western country for better f/a.


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## Born In The USA

sudhir007 said:


> Then why we purchase extra 50 MKI. coze Russian happy with this(they know Mig-35 can not win and India dnt want to Russian unhappy coze we have best of Russian plane in our inventory why we choose that plane which has no future) deal and now we can go for western country for better f/a.



How about purchasing mig 35s to slowly phase out the existing fleet of mig29s in service with the IAF?


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## hack

PakShaheen79 said:


> I think India will go for F-18SH. Just a guess



Yup....that is what I think to.I thought they would get either the EuroFighter or the Rafale first but once they anounced a purchase of another 50 MKI's,I knew they will not buy them.It makes no sense to buy another 126-200 aircraft of the same class as the MKI...

The Super Hornet is a superb A2G aircraft.And the engine can maybe be used for the LCA also.


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## ISRO2

Born In The USA said:


> How about purchasing mig 35s to slowly phase out the existing fleet of mig29s in service with the IAF?



Sir MRCA is not for replacing mig29s. Its for replacing old vintage jet fighters. Rafael leader because it has both navy and land version sir. Thank you.


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## PakShaheen79

ISRO2 said:


> Sir MRCA is not for replacing mig29s. Its for replacing old vintage jet fighters. Rafael leader because it has both navy and land version sir. Thank you.



But I think Indian Navy is already getting Mig-29K for navy. and other that F-18SH is a great plane for sea born operation as well.


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## Born In The USA

ISRO2 said:


> Sir MRCA is not for replacing mig29s. Its for replacing old vintage jet fighters. Rafael leader because it has both navy and land version sir. Thank you.



It was in response to sudhir 007s post and you misunderstood.


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## sudhir007

Born In The USA said:


> How about purchasing mig 35s to slowly phase out the existing fleet of mig29s in service with the IAF?


Mig-29 & Mirage-2000 will be replacing by MCA not mmrca. I dnt think it is beneficial for us to replace 4th generation place to 4++ generation. And remember both mig & mirage going for upgradation and become 4+ gen. place so why we replace these place which has life of more then 10 to 15 yr after upgradation


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## sudhir007

Russian Phasotron corporation reports Sep. 17 , that it has finished the testing program for Zhuk-AE AESA radar. The detection range for a standard aerial target is 148 km and in the perspective it will be raised to 200 km. The Phasotron's General Director Victor Tishchenko said that one of the Indian MMRCA tender request is an AESA radar with 130 km detection range. So, Zhuk-AE fulfills this request, he says. 

Defunct Humanity: Zhuk-AE is ready for fight

Seemingly, Zhuk-AE is the first non-american AESA radar for fighter jets ready for use. The others still remain 'paper radars' in many aspects.


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## ISRO2

PakShaheen79 said:


> But I think Indian Navy is already getting Mig-29K for navy. and other that F-18SH is a great plane for sea born operation as well.



Sir F-18SH is more symbol of sea born operation then land operation sir. While rafael bit better not only on land but also on sea and its new compare to F-18SH. Sir also america not giving india much in tot while rafael open to give anything to india. And sir ofcourse french more realiable then americans. So rafael seems the front runner sir.


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## ISRO2

Born In The USA said:


> It was in response to sudhir 007s post and you misunderstood.



oh ! sorry sir.


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## Screaming Skull

*Zhuk-AE X-band AESA radar for Mig-35 ready!​*
18/09/2009

MOSCOW, September 17 (RIA Novosti) - *Russia's Phazotron NIIR corporation said on Thursday it has developed a new-generation airborne radar for MiG-35 fighter jets which participate in the Indian fighter tender.*

Six major aircraft makers - Lockheed and Boeing from the United States, Russia's MiG, which is part of the UAC, France's Dassault, Sweden's Saab and the EADS consortium of British, German, Spanish and Italian companies - are in contention to win the $10 billion contract for 126 light fighters to be supplied to the Indian Air Force.

*One of the selection criteria in the tender is that the fighter's radar must have an active phased array radar with a target detection range of at least 130 kilometers (about 80 miles).*

*"We have met this requirement of the Indian tender and built the Zhuk-AE active phased array radar with a proven range of 148 kilometers,"* said Vyacheslav Tishchenko, the company's general director.

*The X-band radar can track 30 aerial targets in the track-while-scan mode, and engage six targets simultaneously in the attack mode.

Tishchenko said the detection range could be increased up to 200 km (125 miles).*

Russia's MiG-35 Fulcrum-F, an export version of the MiG-29M OVT is a highly maneuverable air superiority fighter, which won high international acclaim.

The fighter is powered by RD-33 OVT thrust vectoring engines. The RD-33 OVT engines provide superior maneuverability and enhance the fighter's performance in close air engagements.

*The first demonstration flights of two MiG-35s in the Indian tender will be carried out in late October-early November in north-eastern India.

The aircraft will conduct live-firing tests of on-board weaponry on a testing range in southern Russia in March-April 2010.*

Russian fighter jets for Indian tender to have new radar | Top Russian news and analysis online | 'RIA Novosti' newswire


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## sancho

gogbot said:


> Mind you this decision will also depend a lot on The LCA project and what engine that is using.
> 
> Will be first for the euro fighter typhoon
> and then F/A-18 SH or F-16 IN (only with full tot)
> And finally Rafael


Exactly, but imo the engine alone won't be such a big point because only 2 MMRCA vendors are able to provide it for LCA and it needs also AESA radar and IRST. Of course it would be an advantage for EF, or F18SH (possibly even for Gripen NG, because of the same GE414 engine), but I think ToT of more techs is the key to MMRCA. 
US might provide ToT of the engine, because it is old tech and not used in their latest fighters, but will they also provide ToT of their radars, or IRST, which are latest techs? 
I think EF will provide way more ToT than the Americans can, but on the other side much of it won't be proven and ready (AESA radar, a2g capabilities) and more delays is something that we can't afford when it comes to replace the Mig 21s!
We will never get full ToT of F16IN and using F16s with the same weapons against PAF F16s and pilots which knows that aircraft way more, would clearly be a disadvantage.


hack said:


> Yup....that is what I think to.I thought they would get either the EuroFighter or the Rafale first but once they anounced a purchase of another 50 MKI's,I knew they will not buy them.*It makes no sense to buy another 126-200 aircraft of the same class as the MKI*...
> 
> The Super Hornet is a superb A2G aircraft.And the engine can maybe be used for the LCA also.


If you mean weight class, the F18SH is the closest of all MMRCA contenders to MKI and not EF, or Rafale.
If F18SH wins MMRCA it will be mainly a political decision, not because we chose the best fighter that suits IAF. 
F18SH is a good fighter, but it will come with the least ToT which was a main requirement, is one of the oldest designs and don't offer much more improvements. Also the costs will be very high, cause it should have the 3. highest unit cost, the maintenance of such a big fighter is expensive too and don't forget that IAF can use nearly no weapons that are in service now and that IAF has no experiance with US fighters, which means more training.


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## PakShaheen79

I think one major problem for EF would be delivery... As Saudi order is also to be completed and there are news that KSA asking for TOT (How much don't know?). Rafale on other hand can be procured on fast track basis along with F-18SH.


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## sancho

Hi Haanzo, let me start my answer with this


Haanzo said:


> IT IS A MULTI ROLE FIGHTERit has a wide weapons choice similar to paveway series


I never denied that MKI is a multi role aircraft, but I think you will agree with me, that it doesn't mean MKI is equaly good in all roles right?
All MMRCA competitors are multi role aircrafts, but with different focus and capabilities on a2a, or a2g role. EF, Mig 35 and also the MKI are mainly designed for a2a combats (maneuverability, long range radar and weapons) with added a2g capabilities, whereas the F18Sh is clearly the least capable when it comes to maneuverability but maybe the best in a2g (weapon package, payload, specialised avionics and defense systems, numbers of a2g weapons that can be carried). So beeing a multi role aircraft doesn't mean MKI is as good as F18SH, or Rafale in a2g role.
You mentioned the Kab series that are guided bombs, comparable to paveway, or AASM. But these are only available in 500Kg, or higher weight versions for MKI, which limits the use and carriage.
MKI can carry 6 x Kab 500, or 3 x heavier once, in comparison the Rafale up to 5 and 3, the F18SH even 7 and 4, but the real difference lies in the field of smaller bombs of 100 - 400Kg. The MKI can carry a huge load of up to 32 of them on triple pylons, but only *dumb bombs*, whereas the Rafale, or other western fighters can use smaller guided AASM/Paveway bombs aswell (Rafale can carry up to 12 of them on triple pylons).
For heavy bombings with dumb bombs, or with heavy weight guided bombs the MKI is a great fighter, nobody denies that. But with the disadvantage of larger RCS and the lack of smaller precision guided bombs in any deep penetration strike mission behind enemy lines, striks on small ground targets, or SEAD the Rafale would be more preferable!
That's why I said the mix of MKI and Rafale would give IAF different fighters with different capabilities and weapons, for different roles and would not limit them by having similar fighters with similar capabilities and the same weapons. 


Haanzo said:


> I agree to the rcs point but your figures are not accurate do you know that RAM coatings are used on the MKI and the rcs is close to 2.7-3 sq m ----by your words you dont believe russians use ram coatings---wake up and smell the coffee.


I know the MKI uses RAM coating, but if you search the net to compare RCSs, the most common number for Su27/30, or F15 size fighters is 10 - 13 m². RAM coating can reduce the RCS, but I doubt that MKIs RCS is reduced to the numbers that you provided, because the Su 34 is claimed with a RCS of 1 - 3 m². It uses RAM coating aswell, but also an improved airframe designs to reduce RCS, which the MKI doesn't have. Anyway if you have a more detailed sources about MKI and it's RCS, I am always happy about new infos. 


Haanzo said:


> mig-35 or rafale ---the choice is left for the iaf but i would personally like the rafale but mig-35 would be the fastest and the cheapest chioce -----HOW??...lets say they have used mig-29 for 20 years and they know the platform very well so tactics and ease of integration will be the highest ,the existing weapons CAN BE USED


Of course the choice is left to IAF, but Mig 35, or Rafale means to me to pretty different aircrafts!
One upg a2a fighter with some added a2g capabilities that our MKI already provides, so chosing more MKIs instead of new Mig 35 would be better the better choice. The Rafale instead is a new designed aircraft with focus on low RCS and multi role capabilities! Very maneuverable through canard design and a good t/w ratio, good a2a weapons, high payload, many weapon stations and good a2g weapons, combined with latest avionics and defense systems. 
In a2a, imo it will be pretty comparable to the Mig even without TVC, but in a2g it is clearly superior.
Btw, the Rafale was designed with the Mirage 2000 as the base and can also use all weapons that our M2K, or Jags already uses + the same Mica and AASM that the upg M2K will get. So when it comes to integrating the Rafale into IAF, I doubt that it will take much more training, or additional costs for weapons. Not to forget that we already co-develop the Topsight HMS with France and that they offered to integrate a co-developed Kaveri-Snecma engine into the Rafale. Advantages that no other vendor can offer and means more indigenous techs that can be inclouded!

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## Gabbar

Russian fighter jets for Indian tender to have new radar



MOSCOW, September 17 (RIA Novosti) - Russia's Phazotron NIIR corporation said on Thursday it has developed a new-generation airborne radar for MiG-35 fighter jets which participate in the Indian fighter tender.

Six major aircraft makers - Lockheed and Boeing from the United States, Russia's MiG, which is part of the UAC, France's Dassault, Sweden's Saab and the EADS consortium of British, German, Spanish and Italian companies - are in contention to win the $10 billion contract for 126 light fighters to be supplied to the Indian Air Force.

One of the selection criteria in the tender is that the fighter's radar must have an active phased array radar with a target detection range of at least 130 kilometers (about 80 miles).

*"We have met this requirement of the Indian tender and built the Zhuk-AE active phased array radar with a proven range of 148 kilometers," said Vyacheslav Tishchenko, the company's general director.*

The X-band radar can track 30 aerial targets in the track-while-scan mode, and engage six targets simultaneously in the attack mode.

Tishchenko said the detection range could be increased up to 200 km (125 miles).

*Russia's MiG-35 Fulcrum-F, an export version of the MiG-29M OVT is a highly maneuverable air superiority fighter, which won high international acclaim.*

The fighter is powered by RD-33 OVT thrust vectoring engines. The RD-33 OVT engines provide superior maneuverability and enhance the fighter's performance in close air engagements.

The first demonstration flights of two MiG-35s in the Indian tender will be carried out in late October-early November in north-eastern India.

The aircraft will conduct live-firing tests of on-board weaponry on a testing range in southern Russia in March-April 2010.

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## PakShaheen79

Is there any date set to announce actual contract? Asking out of curiosity.


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## Haanzo

check this out
September 17, 2009, (Sawf News) - As the MMRCA competition heats up, Phazotron NIIR corporation has offered a *52 km increase in the detection range* of its Zhuk AE AESA fitted on its contender in the race - MiG-35.

The increased range will likely make the *MiG-35's radar the most powerful amidst the MMRCA contenders* - Boeing Super Hornet F/A-18E/F, Lockheed Martin Super Viper F-16IN, Saab AB's JS-39 Gripen, Dassault Rafale, Eurofighter GmbH's Typhoon, and RSK MiG-35.

The MMRCA tender calls for a minimum detection range of at least 130 kilometers (about 80 miles).

"We have met this requirement of the Indian tender and built the Zhuk-AE active phased array radar with a proven range of 148 kilometers," said Vyacheslav Tishchenko, the company's general director.

The Zhuk-AE can detect aerial targets at ranges up to 148 km (head on) in both look-up or look down modes. Look-up tail-on detection range is 50km (40km look down). *The radar can track 30 aerial targets in the track-while-scan mode, and engage six targets simultaneously in the attack mode.*

Vyacheslav Tishchenko, the company's general director, says the detection range of the radar could be increased from 148 km to 200 km.

A Phazotron official I spoke with at Aero India 2009 in February had pointed out that the Zhuk-AE's range could be extended dramatically by locating it further back in the nose of the MiG-35, taking advantage of the increased cross section to add TR modules and increase the radiated energy.

The publicly acknowledged range of the AN/APG 79 AESA that equips the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet is 160 km. It is highly likely the AN/APG 79 AESA has a higher detection range than what is publicly acknowledged, but whether it goes up to 200 km is moot.

*Compared to the MiG-35 the F/A-18E has a narrower nose cross section precluding the use of a bigger array*. It is unlikely that the detection range of AN/APG 79 AESA could be extended because of antenna aperture and cooling constraints.

...And btwn the russians are also going for an advanced version- Zhuk ASE-aiming for much better better performance than APG-79 AND APG-81 for the Sukhois.

Russia claims 200 km range for MiG-35's Phazotron Zhuk AE

check out the comments in the given link too


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## hack

sancho said:


> Exactly, but imo the engine alone won't be such a big point because only 2 MMRCA vendors are able to provide it for LCA and it needs also AESA radar and IRST. Of course it would be an advantage for EF, or F18SH (possibly even for Gripen NG, because of the same GE414 engine), but I think ToT of more techs is the key to MMRCA.
> US might provide ToT of the engine, because it is old tech and not used in their latest fighters, but will they also provide ToT of their radars, or IRST, which are latest techs?
> I think EF will provide way more ToT than the Americans can, but on the other side much of it won't be proven and ready (AESA radar, a2g capabilities) and more delays is something that we can't afford when it comes to replace the Mig 21s!
> We will never get full ToT of F16IN and using F16s with the same weapons against PAF F16s and pilots which knows that aircraft way more, would clearly be a disadvantage.
> 
> If you mean weight class, the F18SH is the closest of all MMRCA contenders to MKI and not EF, or Rafale.
> If F18SH wins MMRCA it will be mainly a political decision, not because we chose the best fighter that suits IAF.
> F18SH is a good fighter, but it will come with the least ToT which was a main requirement, is one of the oldest designs and don't offer much more improvements. Also the costs will be very high, cause it should have the 3. highest unit cost, the maintenance of such a big fighter is expensive too and don't forget that IAF can use nearly no weapons that are in service now and that IAF has no experiance with US fighters, which means more training.



I meant the same class as an air superiority fighter...The F18SH outstrips the Rafale as a A2G fighter.The SH also has the superior radar.Definitely the Super Hornet does not have maneuverability but it was never designed as a A2A fighter.It was designed to smash targets on the ground and that it does really well.

How can you say the maintainence cost of the f18 is the highest because the Brazilian President said so?What else will he say after choosing the more expensive Rafale over the cheaper plane.? On top of everything India needs to start building a relationship with the country who will have the most influence in India's growth.


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## blueoval79

*Russia ready to help India build its own advanced radar*
MOSCOW: As the race to secure the Indian Air Forces $10-billion tender for 126 combat jets reached the crucial stage of flight trials, Russia, on top of a full technology transfer, is offering India help in building its own advanced radar. This would put India in the elite league of manufacturers of some of the most sophisticated defence equipment.

We are ready to develop a new advanced radar jointly with India, said Vyacheslav Tishchenko, head of the Phazotron-NIIR Corporation. The company has built Russias first Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar, Zhuk-ME, for the MiG-35 fighter, the Russian contender in the IAF tender for the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA). Two planes will go to India next month for flight evaluation trials.

Also in the fray are the U.S. F-16 and F-18, the French Dassaults Rafale, the Swedish Saab Gripen and the Eurofighter Typhoon. Transfer of technology is a prime requirement in the MMRCA tender, but as far as the radar is concerned, Russia alone seems prepared to meet the demand in full. Out of six-seven countries in the world that have the know-how to build radars for combat jets, only two  Russia and the U.S.  domestically produce the full range of radar components, Phazotrons chief designer Yuri Guskov said.

Raytheon, the U.S. company that manufactures radars for the F-18 fighter, has already said it would only transfer limited technology up to the level the U.S. government allows us.

This means Americas European competitors in the MMRCA tender will also face restrictions on the transfer of technologies sourced from the U.S. companies.

Russia is the only bidder which does not depend on the U.S. for any aircraft technologies, including the radar.

The Hindu : Front Page : Russia ready to help India build its own advanced radar


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## ironman

* Russian firm offers full technology transfer ​*Monday, Sep 21, 2009

Vladimir Radyuhin

MOSCOW: We have pledged 100 per cent technology transfer for the MiG-35, including the radar and all its systems, Tishchenko, General Director of the Russian company, Phazotron, told The Hindu.

Moreover, if India wants to build its own fifth-generation AESA radar, we could set up a joint venture for the job modelled on the Brahmos Aerospace Ltd. [an Indo-Russian JV that has built the superior Brahmos supersonic anti-ship missile], he said.

We are prepared to share with India our 60-year-long experience of designing radars that has gone into building Zhuk-AE, which is as good as any Western radar today.

The Russian offer could come in handy as India struggles to build an AESA radar small enough to fit into its Tejas light combat aircraft. Russias Zhuk-AE is the smallest radar among all entrants in the MMRCA tender.

Even as India recently sourced some avionics for its Russian-built fighter jets from other countries, it has consistently stuck with Russian radars. Phazotron has provided new radars for the MiG-21 and MiG-29 upgrades, while the other Russian radar manufacturer, Tikhomirov NIIP, has supplied radars for the Su-30 MKI fighter.

Aviation experts say the on board radar accounts for 40 per cent of a modern fighter planes combat capabilities.

If India masters the AESA radar technology it would be a milestone achievement comparable to sending a man to space or building a GPS communication system, said arms export analyst Konstantin Makienko of Russias CAST think-tank.

---------- Post added at 10:30 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:30 AM ----------

Fed up with this TOT issue..


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## PakShaheen79

I can see how desperately Russians need MRCA... But it will surely turn on heat on Boeing and LM to offer something even more lucrative in terms of technology.


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## duhastmish

i expect a much - closer game , i think - except for -EF and rafaele , 

russian , and american will go far ahead - over and under the table . to get mrca in their pocket.


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## ouiouiouiouiouioui

Kaiser said:


> Yes I agree with you on the Mirage 2000 choice but, I dont think India would wanna go for the F-18 Super hornet because
> 1)Its comeing from a not-reliable supplier for the F-18
> 2)India will have to get whole new class of weapons like AIM 9L etc...
> 3)India will then have to maintain 6-8 different fighters
> 4)It'll be much easier to go for a Russian plane since there more used to them and wont have to train new pilots for a whole new plane
> So there's more of a chance India might go for the MIG-35 than the F-18.



agreed....just club any of these two aircrafts with indian modifications...may be this can come from israel....


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## jaunty

Wow what a classic bump 

In hindi ''Khali dimag shaitan ka ghar'' (Plz don't tell me to translate this. It won't have the same flavor )

We already have a MRCA sticky thread...!!!

The thread is of 2005. Frankly its a shame that today we are in 2009 and still undecided about the whole deal. It will take at least year or two to decide.


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## ISRO2

Sir did russia gave india engine technology yet? The question here is how much we should trust russia. Aircraft carrier blackmail, brahmoss code source threat, never helped india even making a tiny engine yet. Let alone powerful engine. We already investing heavy in pak-fa, buying new su-30MKI's, mig29 upgradation etc etc. Thats already alot. We need something new now. EF or rafael. Thank you.


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## ISRO2

And by the way we will get mig35 later even when we dont pick it. If mig35 looses then it doesn't mean its end of road. Anyway mig29 upgradation is upto mig35 level. So in a way we can say after upgradation mig29 bit mig35 level. May be not fully but it will be nearly.


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## Gabbar

*Russia to begin induction of 5th generation fighter in 2015*

*Russian Air Force will begin the induction of fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA), which it is developing in partnership with India, from 2015, a senior defence official has said.* *"Beginning from 2015 we will begin the induction of fifth generation fighters. They will have stealth features, greater engine resource, enhanced target acquisition, new weapon suites and airframe different from the present generation of fighters," *Deputy Defence Minister, General Vladimir Popovkin said on "Ekho Moskvy" radio. 

India is partnering Russia in the joint development and production of the FGFA under an agreement signed in Moscow in 2007 during Defence Minister AK Antony&#8217;s Moscow visit. The two nations are expected to finalise the FGFA contract next month during the Russia visit of Antony for the annual session of the Indo-Russian Intergovernmental Commission on Military-Technical Cooperation. According to earlier reports the FGFA would be developed on the basis of Sukhoi Corporation's secret PAKFA project. Under the understanding reached between the two countries, a lighter twin-seater version of the fifth generation fighter would be developed for India.


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## ironman

*Race is on for India MMRCA​*Sep 21, 2009
By Neelam Mathews 


Flight trials for Indias biggest defense procurement program, the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA), are underway. India will acquire 126 aircraft86 single-seat and 40 twin-seat configurations.

The air force requirement for the MMRCA is based on a maximum all-up weight of 14,000-30,000 kg. (31,000-66,000 lb.). India plans to procure 18 aircraft in flyaway condition and produce 106 locally under license through technology transfer. Delivery starts within 36 months of contract signing and will be completed 48 months later.

The contenders are the Boeing F/A-18, Lockheed Martin F&#8209;16IN, MiG-35, Dassault Aviation Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon and Saab Gripen NG (New Generation).

Flight trials will be held in Bengaluru (Bangalore) for humidity and Jaisalmer in the Rajasthan desert for heat. Trials in the Leh district of Ladakh will be the most challenging. It will be a pure performance issue at 3,500 meters (11,483 ft.) [above sea level] and 50C (122F) in the summer, says a vendor.

Nobody can take off in Leh with a full weapons load, even with powerful engines, adds a defense analyst.

The request for proposals (RFP) states the aircraft should be able to take off with a full internal fuel load and significant external load from a runway of 3,300 meters, in air-defense and strike configurations.

Vendors are not discussing the weapons their planes will carry during flight trials. Weapon trials will be held in the respective countries, most likely between November and January, and completed in late April when the bids are opened.

Initial weapons to be delivered with the flyaway aircraft include active beyond-visual-range air-to-air missiles, antiship missiles with 100-km. (62-mi.) range, air-to-ground and medium-range missiles (with a range of more than 200 km.), and standoff precision-guided munitions (40-km. range).

The RFP requires that aircraft, components and accessories be of the latest manufacture and conform to the latest production standards.

A game-changer could be the requirement for multimode active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar with a wide band and adequate growth potential. Raytheons APG-79 AESA radar for the F/A-18 conforms to the requirement, as does Northrop Grummans APG-80 for the Block 60 F-16s in the United Arab Emirates fleet.

Gripen will fly with its AESA radar during trials. Saab and Selex Galileo will jointly develop an AESA radar for the Gripen NG. The system will be based on Selex Galileos Vixen AESA radar and use components from the Gripens PS-05/A and other programs from both companies.

Eurofighter insists the range of mechanically scanned (M&#8209;Scan) Selex Captor radar rivals any AESA. There are benefits in maintenance because it has no moving parts, says an official.

The Captor electronically scanned array radar is a research and development effort among Germany, Italy, Spain and the U.K. A prototype called Caesar was flown on a Typhoon developmental aircraft in 2007.

The final configuration of the MiG-35s onboard equipment is not clear. The MiG-35 Fulcrum-F, a stripped-down version of the MiG-29M OVT, might use the Zhuk-AE (see p. 8), Bars-29 or Elta Systems EL/M-2052 radars.

Thales, meanwhile, has a contract to develop the second-generation RBE2 AESA radar for the Rafale from the French defense procurement agency. The transition to active electronic scanning technology, which in the case of the RBE2 involves transmit-and-receive technologies only, will provide new capabilities and enhance performance, while improving reliability and reducing maintenance costs, says Dassault. The AESA antenna will increase the RBE2s range and angular coverage and make the radar more reliable. The RBE2 on the Rafale F3 will offer high-resolution ground-mapping modes, says Thales.

Dassault will complete integration of the radar with the Rafale in 2011, in time for delivery should Dassault win all or part of the MMRCA order.


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## sancho

hack said:


> I meant the same class as an air superiority fighter...The F18SH outstrips the Rafale as a A2G fighter.The SH also has the superior radar.Definitely the Super Hornet does not have maneuverability but it was never designed as a A2A fighter.It was designed to smash targets on the ground and that it does really well.


I agree with MKI and EF in the same class, but not for Rafale. It also wasn't designed with air superiority in mind, it was designed to be an allrounder (omni role!). Of course the F18Sh is the best in a2 ground, but at the moment no one else in the competition comes closer than the Rafale. 


hack said:


> How can you say the maintainence cost of the f18 is the highest because the Brazilian President said so?What else will he say after choosing the more expensive Rafale over the cheaper plane.? On top of everything India needs to start building a relationship with the country who will have the most influence in India's growth.


No because it is clearly the biggest aircraft in the competition, the single engine fighters should be the most cost-effective once, possibly followed by Rafale. With big numbers of MKI, and FGFA and MCA in development, that are pretty much in the same size as F18SH, that could be a small point against F18SH.
Btw, I think the Brazilian are doing the right thing by chosing Rafale, because independence is worth more than that extra money! 
With clearly more ToT and source codes they will have more control of their fighters and weapons and India should follow their example. 
Isn't it the other way around? Isn't America trying everything to get closer to India, because you need this big market and exports now more than ever before? Also India is the only country in Asia who can keep up with China at the moment and you need a strong India as a counter weight in economic and security reasons.

Anyway, I highly prefer less influence of US and that's why I think it's ok to buy some transport aircrafts and helicopter from you, but MMRCA should go to a European country if they can provide us comparable techs.


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## Screaming Skull

*@sancho*

Just a general post-

I agree with you that the Rafale, &#8216;technically&#8217; is probably the best aircraft available in the open market for a multitude of reasons. I would personally like to see the Rafales in IAF colors. But, is the MRCA all about picking the best that is available to us? For this, one must understand how the entire selection procedure for the MRCA works. Here read these excerpts from a report that appeared last month in Business Standard-



> The defence ministry rulebook that governs purchases reduces the medium fighter competition to three simple steps. Firstly, the air force specifies exactly the *performance it wants* from its proposed medium fighter. Next, it flies and evaluates all the aircraft on offer to see *which ones meet all those requirements.* Finally, the ministry orders the *cheapest of those that qualify.*





> Says a senior officer, &#8220;We don&#8217;t compare the aircraft with each other, we compare them with the tender requirements, filling in a compliance matrix.&#8221;



The great Indian duel

I am not privy to the full text of the RFP that was sent out to these companies, but I am guessing that all the aircrafts participating in the contest will satisfy the requirements. If that is the case then cost alone will be the deciding factor! The silver lining is that the IAF and MoD are going to estimate the &#8216;cost of ownership&#8217; over the entire life cycle of the aircrafts (30-40 yrs) that will include the cost incurred to purchase, maintain, upgrade, savings to indigenous R&D through ToT etc. When such is the case, I am seriously doubtful of Rafale&#8217;s chances in the MRCA. The only way out for Rafale is if the cost of ownership turns out to be the lowest for it. Anyway, when such is the case, the obvious favorite that emerges is the Mig-35.

All political and trust issues aside how good is the Mig-35 technically? Is it merely a pimped up Mig-29 as many have alleged? What are the additional capabilities it will offer to the IAF that already operates the Mig-29 (to be upgraded by 2013)? 

I came across this very interesting blog by a Russian where he reviews the capabilities of the fighter. Thought I l just share it here

Excerpts-



> Briefly the main differences between classic line of MiG-29 on one hand and both MiG-29K/KUB & MiG-29M/M2 on the other:
> 
> - The latest has 15-20&#37; composite airframe,
> - Slightly bigger wings and ailerons, new wingspan is 11,99 m against 11,36 m.
> - Bigger horizontal stabilizers and rudders,
> - Wider spine with bigger internal fuel tanks, 1.5 time more fuel.
> - Bigger additional fuel tank is allowed (grow from 1520 l to 2150 l)
> - Higher load, (4500 --> 5500 kg )
> - Antiradar coating,
> - Higher trust engines RD-33MK (2x8300 --> 2x9000 kg on afterburner), with longer MTBO/MTBF (2000 --> 4000 hours)
> -Reduced infrared emission of the engines,
> - Smokeless burner
> - FADEC full control system for engines
> - Longer life of airframe. Growing up from 2500 fly hours or 20 years rised to 5000 f/h or 30 years.
> - Higher number of loading points (9 instead of 6) and heavier weight is allowed for new more heavy missiles.
> - Dorsal air intake inlets are removed, fuel tank is installed instead.
> - Inlet defense system is installed (grids).
> - Totally redesigned canopy
> - Service improvement , on-condition maintenance, fuel economy with 2.5 times reducing of flight-hour cost.
> - Fly-by-wire
> - Refueling capacity
> - Open architecture of avionics
> - Anti-corrosive defense of a naval aircraft level.
> 
> *For MiG-35 however further improvements are made.*
> 
> - MiG-35 has no dorsal air brake (rudders are used instead),
> - 11 points of load instead of 9
> - 6500 kg max load instead of 5500
> - Difference in chassis
> - Airframe life 5000 -->6000 hours or 40 years
> - AESA radar
> - Missiles warning system
> - Broader weapon spectrum (+3M-14, 3M-54, KAB-1500)
> - Advanced IRST
> - Trust vectoring engine
> - Better avionics
> 
> *The most important specs of MiG-35 (two-sitter MiG-35D) are as follow:*
> 
> Normal take-off mass --- 17,500 (17,800) kg
> Maximal --- 23,500 kg
> Max. landing mass ---16,800 kg
> Internal fuel --- 4,800 kg
> Max. load --- 6,500 kg
> Max. speed
> - low 1,400 km/h
> - high 2,100
> Mach 2.0
> Gmax --- 9.0
> Ferry distance
> - internal fuel ---2,000 (1,700) km
> - 3 external tanks ---3,000 (2,700) km
> - 3 e.t. + 1 refueling ---6,000 (5,700) km
> Take-off strip --- 550 m
> Landing strip --- 600 m
> Engines --- 2x RD-33MK
> Power 2x 9,000 kg on afterburner
> 
> Read the whole article and the discussions that follow- Defunct Humanity: MiG-35, brief review


 (I found the blog really great! Must visit if you are interested in Russian tech developments)

Rafale is really the best that is available in the open market and will serve the IAF really well. However, due the inherent process of selection that puts a great premium on cost, I believe the Mig-35 has great chances of winning. Purely on technical grounds the Mig comes across as a very potent and capable fighter and IMO offers the best bang for the buck. Hence, if not Rafale I would like to see the Mig-35 in IAF colors.

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## ouiouiouiouiouioui

> In hindi ''Khali dimag shaitan ka ghar'' (Plz don't tell me to translate this. It won't have the same flavor )
> 
> We already have a MRCA sticky thread...!!!
> 
> The thread is of 2005. Frankly its a shame that today we are in 2009 and still undecided about the whole deal. It will take at least year or two to decide.




good for all...may be from 3.5 gen aircraft in 2005 u may get 4.5 gen in 2017


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## Gabbar

India - Last Chance for Super Viper​

I'll be delighted to be proved wrong, but I can't see Lockheed Martin's F-16IN as the front runner in India's 126-aircraft fighter competition, even if it has been rechristened the "Super Viper" (farewell, belatedly, to the unloved Fighting Falcon moniker).







Maybe I am being ageist. I became an aviation journalist in August 1978, the same month and year that the F-16 entered service. And that seems a long time ago to me. But I'm still writing and Lockheed is still building F-16s, so maybe age is irrelevant. Certainly the fact that the F-16 is in the final years of a long production run should be irrelevant - whichever fighter India picks for local production will be built there long after the tooling has been mothballed back home.

And Lockheed Martin is certain to have raided its Lego-like box of capabilities to assemble an aircraft for India that is competitive. At Paris, F-16 program manager John Larson said the IN is basically a Block 60 with added features from the Block 50+, such as helmet-mounted cueing, and India-unique features, such as the retractable refueling probe housed in the starboard conformal tank.

The aircraft is illustrated (above) armed with JSOWs mid-wing and SLAM-ERs inboard, but most interesting is the JASSM shown on the right side of the viewgraph. That surprised a few of us at the briefing, so I asked - and it appears the stealthy conventional cruise missile hasn't been released for export to India yet...


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## warlock21

India should go for Rafeal..


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## HAL_FGFA

India should go for Eurofighter(Personal opinion)


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## ISRO2

India should go for rafael or EF.


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## sancho

@Screaming Skull

First of all thanks for the link, it is really interesting and offers good infos!

Now to your post, I think you misinterpret it, because imo there is no great premium on cost in the selection!
The key is the last sentence of your quote: 


> the ministry orders the cheapest *of those that will qualify*


That means, MoD doubts that all 6 contenders will meet all their requirements and only a few will qualify to the final phase, in other words will be short listed. That is a common way is such procurements, in Singapore for example the EF was short listed after the test and evaluation phase, because it didnt met the requirements (most likely a2g capabilities, some sources say because of the production delays that were likely) and only the Rafale and the F15 went to the final phase. Same way in Brazil now, from 5 contenders at the beginning only the Rafale, Gripen NG and the F18SH are/were left in the competition. 
In the final phase the MoD normally asks the vendors for the final costs, or details (amount of ToT, offsets, other deals related to this) of the deal and the one which is the cheapest, or offers the most will win. 

Now to the Mig, I cant agree that the Mig is the best bang for the buck, because if we want a Russian air superiority fighter with added a2g capabilities, 3D TVC, lower RCS, OLS and a long range radar for a unit cost of $40  50 million, wouldnt you also take the upg MKI and not the Mig 35?
It is more capable, as cheap, can be integrated as easy, because pilots needs less training, commonality to existing fighters and the infrastructure for logistic / maintenance is ready. Even on maintenance bases the Mig might not be better although it is a medium class fighter:


> MiG-35/35D has two RD-33MK Klimov's engines with maximal thrust on afterburner 9,000 kgf, on maximal dry  5,400 kgf. *The life resource of this engine (4,000 h)* was raised significantly comparing to standard RD-33 ser. 3 (2,500 h) which is used on Russian and Indian MiG-29's and which technology is already transferring to India.



For comparison, the new S117 engine of upg MKI:


> The 117&#1057; engine is a deep thrust-life modernization of the AL-31FP, which will be installed on the latest Sukhoi Su-30/Su-30MKI aircraft.
> The modernized engine thrust has been increased by 16% compared to the base AL-31FP engine, and has reached 14500 kgf, *the lifetime has been doubled, up to 4000 hours.*


ÍÏÎ "ÑÀÒÓÐÍ"

So if IAF and MoD wanted only a cheap and easy to integrate replacement, they simlpy would have gone with more Mig 29 SMT, or Mirage 2K in the first MRCA competition, or now would take more upg MKIs, without any fear of delays. But that is not the case, they are ready to spend money if it's worth it, that's why they chose A330 MRTT over more IL 78 tanker and C17 over IL 76 transport aircrafts.
Imo this new competition is about integrating different weapons and capabilities into the IAF fleet, getting new techs and possibly political benefits, but exaclty these benefits can't be offered by the Mig 35! Nearly all techs and weapons that it offer, are/will be in the AF through MKI, it is in the same role and offer the same capabilities and it wouldn't mean no political benefit, because Russia is already one of our closest supporters. That all makes it unlikely that the Mig 35 will win the competiton! 

Btw, I dont think Rafale is the best, or technically most advanced aircraft in the competition, because its radar is only average (with ~140Km detection range it fulfil the requirement, but some others could be better) and the engine might not offer enough thrust for our hot climate.
The reason why I still prefer the Rafale is that it offers the best package of advantages, that nearly no other contender can offer!

For example:
-	it offers the most full ToT of techs that are new and not available in IAF now, or will be through other developments (Pak Fa/FGFA)
-	it is offered with the further development and integration of Kaveri engine, that would be an amount of customisation with indigenous parts that no other contender can offer
-	No restrictions and control, because it is offered with source codes of radar and other systems and we can reprogram them for our needs (btw are there any end user agreements about the M2K fighers?) 
-	with its omni role design, it offers the most balanced performance in all roles (equally good in a2a and a2g), which makes it perfectly suitable between LCA and MKI, without competing them in their roles (EF and Mig are too close to MKI, Gripen NG too close to LCA)
-	besides the Mig, it is the only aircraft that already has a infrastructure for logistic and maintenance in India 
-	also besides the Mig, the Rafale is the most sanction prove fighter, because all techs are French and they were a reliable partner in the past
- its maintenance costs are aimed at M2K, so it could be the most cost-effective double engine fighter in the competition
- besides F18SH and F16IN it is the only aircraft that is fully developed now and already has combat experience (at least in a2g role)
- techs like OSF, Spectra EWS, or RBE 2 AESA radar, or weapons like Mica, AASM and Exocet should fit, or could be used with LCA too, what makes LCA more leathal and offers more commonality

All this should make clear that the Rafale is worth the money and we would get more than enough in return. As you said before, we don't have to get the best, or the most advanced fighter, but that one that suits best in the IAF fleet and offers the most benefits.

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## Screaming Skull

*@sancho*

Mig-35 is a very capable and potent fighter for all the reasons I mentioned in my previous post. I have had couple opportunities to interact with a few IAF test pilots during AI-07 & AI-09 and they too rated it very highly. So, I really have no doubt in my mind that it will qualify for the second round of the competition along with two other fighters. After this it will be the MoD&#8217;s call. Remember, it is not the IAF&#8217;s job to evaluate how much ToT each fighter brings or what additional technologies India achieves from specific fighters. The IAF&#8217;s job is to only evaluate each fighter&#8217;s performance and gauge it with respect to the performance that it wants or expects. There is a separate team of engineers from ADA & HAL that will evaluate the tech and ToT related issues and advice the IAF and MoD on the same. 

So, a simple question to you-what if both Rafale and Mig qualify for the second round? What if the Mig outperforms the Rafale during the IAF&#8217;s flight evaluations (trust me it is highly probable)? What then will be the criteria to choose between the two? Will the prospect of getting specific superior western technologies with Rafale outweigh the cost benefits that the Mig brings? 

Regarding some of the other points you raised in your post-

-the MKI no longer costs 40-50 mil. The upgraded one could cost twice as much. Moreover, the option of going for additional MKIs was considered initially, but was later dropped when the IAF realized that a medium category fighter was required to augment its capabilities. 
-IAF was really keen to get the M2K but by the time the MoD could take a call, Dassault had closed the production line.
-we bought the transport aircrafts and refuellers in small numbers so the cost difference wasn&#8217;t much. Also, the difference in capabilities between the said western and Russian systems was pretty high. In this case the difference between the Mig and the others is not much; in fact the Mig might thump some of its competitors

In the end I l just paraphrase what I said in my two posts- I will be elated if Rafale wins the contest- I won&#8217;t be disappointed if Mig or EF win it, but I will be crestfallen if any of the other fighters were to win the contest. That said all the fighters participating in the contest are very capable. Any fighter amongst the 6 when inducted into IAF will greatly enhance its capabilities. I am just trying to second guess the MoD&#8217;s decision. I could be hopelessly wrong in the end!

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## booo

@Screaming Skull: after reading your posts, I am getting a feeling that India's main requirement for TOT is to decrease the total cost of ownership rather than to use it in LCA or other program.


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## Kharian_Beast

> The IAF&#8217;s job is to only evaluate each fighter&#8217;s performance and gauge it with respect to the performance that it wants or expects.



This is where the IAF's sphere of influence and authority ends, and where politics and government come into play. All of the aircraft are better than MiG 21's and many of them are very similar in performance and pricing as well as ToT transfers. The winner will be whoever India can politically benefit from the most and that will 100&#37; be the United States.

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## MZUBAIR

Still no news ..trials are over......October 2009 is coming ...Y so late in decision.


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## Tejas-MkII

MZUBAIR said:


> Still no news ..trials are over......October 2009 is coming ...Y so late in decision.



sorry trails are not over still EF,rafale,gripen is left for trails..

Also trail for high altitude(leh) and in desert (thar) is left for F-18 and F-16 (by mid of 2010)..... that's only the first round of trial after that firing of weapons ...willl be done in their home land (end of 2010)......

After that IAF give their view on different Ac and GoI make the final decison(by 2011)....


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## sancho

Screaming Skull said:


> *@sancho*
> So, a simple question to you-what if both Rafale and Mig qualify for the second round? What if the Mig outperforms the Rafale during the IAF&#8217;s flight evaluations (trust me it is highly probable)?


I think it's time for a clear comparison!
*A2A:* 
Speed & Thrust - Though the upg M88 engine, or a possible Kaveri - Snecma engine are not ready now, *advantage Mig*
Maneuverability - both could have a similar t/w ratio, so it will end up with canards vs. TVC. I would say *advantage Mig*
Radar - if the latest reports are true and 200Km are achiveable, again *advantage Mig*
Missiles - R73 and R77 vs. Mica IR/ASRAAM/Sidewinder and Mica EM/Meteor/AMRAAM, I would say *advantage Rafale*, because of newer technology
RCS - below 1 for Rafale vs. ? of the Mig, but the fact that the Rafale was designed to have a low RCS and the Mig airframe is just a slight upg of the older Mig 29 with RAM coatings, let me doubt the it can compete that. *Advantage Rafale*
EWS and Avionics - clear *advantage to Rafale*, because the Mig needs to be added with French, or Israeli techs to be competitive

*A2G:*
Payload - 9,5t for Rafale, 6,5t for the Mig, *advantage Rafale*
Weapon stations - 14 vs. 9, *advantage Rafale*
Anti ship missiles - 4 x Exocet/Harpoon vs. 4 x Kh-31A/Kh-35E, *equal*
Anti radiation missile - 5 Alarm/Harm vs. 4 x 4&#1093;Kh-31P slight *advantage Rafale*
Guided bombs - 3 x 1000Kg, 5x 400Kg and up to 12 x 250Kg vs. 4 x KAB-500Kr, clear *advantage Rafale*
Cruise missiles - 3 x Scalp vs. ? *advantage Rafale*

Feel free to disagree, but I don't see how the Mig should outperform the Rafale.


Screaming Skull said:


> What then will be the criteria to choose between the two? Will the prospect of getting specific superior western technologies with Rafale outweigh the cost benefits that the Mig brings?


As you said IAF will compare which aircrafts and which suits best in IAF and the fact that we will have more than 300 fighters (MKIs and upg Mig 29) with nearly the same capabilities, will not be a benefit to the Mig. That's why I said the Rafale suits better and offers more different capabilities to IAF.

The next criteria will be ToT and again Rafale offers clearly more, because those techs are new and not already available in IAF now, so ADA & HAL will beneft way more if they get more access to western techs.

And the final criteria, the cost of course! 
On the one side the Mig with unit costs of around $40 - 50 million, plus costs for additional western techs and on the other, unit costs of around $80 - 90 million, but less maintenance costs.

IMO you can sum it up in a simple sentence. Pay more get more, pay less get less!
As I said before, if the aim is just a cheap and cost-effective replacement, we would have gone for Migs, or M2K long time ago. But now we want more and multiple advantages and benefits that Rafale offers, makes it clearly worth the money!


Screaming Skull said:


> In the end I l just paraphrase what I said in my two posts- I will be elated if Rafale wins the contest- I won&#8217;t be disappointed if Mig or EF win it, but I will be crestfallen if any of the other fighters were to win the contest. That said all the fighters participating in the contest are very capable. Any fighter amongst the 6 when inducted into IAF will greatly enhance its capabilities. I am just trying to second guess the MoD&#8217;s decision. I could be hopelessly wrong in the end!


I hope for an European winner, because those fighters have the newest techs and more important gives us more independence!
All eggs in one basket makes us only more dependent to Russia and we will remain just as a buyer and not as a partner on the same level.
Same reason for the US, you just have to look at countires like South Korea, Japan, UK, or Israel to understand that they never will be real partners and always remain buyers. I think India don't need such a relationship anymore and should not go to a direction that could force anykind of pressure on us, unnecessary if it is Russia, or the US. 
And if we have to pay more money to get that kind of freedom and independence, it's more than worth it!

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## Tejas-MkII

@sancho

good comparison dude...

Its clearly advantage rafale...

and if GoI and IAF want less dependency and agree to pay more ...than ..

Game rafale...


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## Tejas-MkII

The Hindu : Karnataka / Bangalore News : Rafale lands in Bangalore

*Rafale lands in Bangalore *

BANGALORE: Rafale, the French built fighter aircraft and one of the six fighters competing for the Indian Air Forces (IAFs) multi-billion dollar multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) deal is in Bangalore. Two twin-engine delta-wing multi-role fighters designed and built by Frances Dassault Aviation and piloted by IAF and French pilots have been undertaking flights  *which are part of the MMRCA flight trials  from Bangalores HAL Airport since Tuesday*. 

Officials said the two French aircraft had flown non-stop to Bangalore from Dassaults Flight Test Centre at Istres in France, thanks to the fighters in-flight refuelling capabilities.

One of the most modern fourth generation fighters, the Rafale is in use with the French Air Force, and the French Navy for their carrier-based operations. Officials said the Rafale met all the air staff qualitative requirements sought by the IAF and that Dassault was prepared to transfer all the technology that was required by the Indian side. They pointed out that the Rafale had a functioning Active Electronically Scanned Array radar. 

Dassaults bid had the strong backing of the Nicolas Sarkozy Government. 

Piloted by IAF and French pilots, the two trainer aircraft will be based in Bangalore for the next fortnight, flying over, and in and out of Bangalore as they take part in the first phase of the flight trials. During the two weeks the aircraft will fly to Leh for the high altitude/cold weather trials and Jaisalmer for the hot weather trials. 

Dassaults technicians, pilots and maintenance crew will train and show IAF test pilots and flight test engineers the capabilities and uniqueness of the Rafale. 

Besides the IAF test crews, the specially formed Indian Evaluation Team has representatives from the Ministry of Defence, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, the Defence and Research Development Organisation, Directorate-General of Aeronautical Quality Assurance and Air Headquarters. Two evaluations teams have been formed for the MMRCA flight trials. 

The next phase of flight trials will involve weapon firing trials in the country of the aircrafts manufacturer. Besides the Rafale the other aircraft in contention for the $ 10 billion to $12 billion deal are Boeings F/A-18, Lockheed Martins F-16IN Super Viper, the European Aeronautic Defence and Space Companys Eurofighter Typhoon, Russias Mikoyan MiG-35 and Swedens Gripen JAS-39. 


Its sad that nobody get this info...

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## Tejas-MkII

It may be posted earlier about Rafale AESA...

Also for those who say RAfale have no AESA..


http://www.****************/aesa-radar-successfully-tested-on-rafale-fighter-aircraft-18117/

*AESA Radar Successfully Tested on Rafale Fighter Aircraft*

NEUILLY, France: Thales announced today that its RBE2 active electronically-scanned array (AESA) radar has successfully completed a new series of tests on the Rafale at the Cazaux flight test centre in Southwest France from February to March.

These tests, carried out jointly by Thales and the French defence procurement agency (DGA), provided functional validation of the radars operating modes.

This milestone marks the latest step towards qualifying the RBE2 AESA radars this year in readiness for delivery of the first two units to Dassault Aviation during the first quarter of 2010. *The radars will be installed on the aircraft in 2011 for delivery to the French Air Force early in 2012.*(same time when MMRCA should be inducted)
The successful tests are the latest in a long line of key milestones. Thales began developing an AESA radar demonstrator in the 1990s and conducted exploratory tests at the flight test centre in 2002 and 2003 to refine the concept. In 2004, the French defence procurement agency DGA backed the project with a contract to develop a prototype of an operational active-module radar.

At the end of 2006, *Thales completed its first active phased array, comprising some 1,000 gallium-arsenide T/R modules manufactured by European firm United Monolithic Semiconductors (UMS).*

The active phased array, which replaces the passive array in the RBE2 currently operating on the Rafale, offers many advantages:

*range extended by over 50% for future compatibility with new weapon systems like Meteor;* 

*higher module reliability for reduced cost of ownership (no array overhaul required for 10 years) *

*waveform agility for high-resolution synthetic aperture (SAR) imagery in air-to-ground mode and better resistance to jamming. *

Pierre-Yves Chaltiel, Senior Vice President in charge of Thaless Aerospace Solutions for Governments Sector, commented on the achievement of this new milestone: *The success of this latest series of tests on the RBE2 AESA radar consolidates Thaless European leadership position.* Moreover, it will help to affirm the Rafales technological superiority as the omnirole aircraft performs flight demonstrations for potential export customers, confirming its excellent performance as it has recently in Switzerland and the United Arab Emirates.

Thales is a leading international electronics and systems group, addressing Defence, Aerospace and Security markets worldwide. The Groups civil and military businesses develop in parallel and share a common base of technologies to serve a single objective: the security of people, property and nations.

Thaless leading-edge technology is supported by 22,500 R&D engineers who offer a capability unmatched in Europe to develop and deploy field-proven mission-critical information systems. The Group builds its growth on its unique multi-domestic strategy based on trusted partnerships with national customers and market players, while leveraging its global expertise to support local technology and industrial development. Thales employs 68,000 people in 50 countries with 2008 revenues of EUR 12.7 billion


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## Tejas-MkII

This is the photo of RBE2 AESA.....

http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/3149/laad07179zk4.jpg


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## sancho

This article of the Brazilian fighter competition could be a hint where the MMRCA competition should go to. Not only because Rafale could win there, but the aims and requirements they have should be important for us too:

France 24 | France seen leading race to equip Brazil air force | France 24



> ...the essential criteria in the jet fighter bid were:
> *How much technology will be transferred?*
> *What will Brazilian industry get out of it? *
> *What are Brazil's long-term geo-political goals?*
> *"We already have a deal with France. Should we reinforce it?*
> *If we negotiate with the US, will we be forced to toe the line on its policies? *
> *Are there advantages to negotiating with the Swedes?*



So from MMRCA point of view:

*How much and and what kind of ToT India will get?*

*Rafale* - full ToT of new techs like RBE 2 AA radar, M88 engine, hopefully Spectra EWS and all techs could be useful for LCA too
*EF* - not finalised so far, but most likely of EJ 200 engine and avionics that could be produced in India for all EFs. These could be useful for LCA too 
*Mig 35* - full ToT is offered, but only Zhuk AE radar is a real new tech for IAF and can be shared with LCA 
*F18SH* - limited, most likely engine techs that could be useful for LCA too
*Gripen NG * - very limited ToT because all important parts are co-developments which needs approval of other countries, so not much that can be shared with LCA.
*F16IN* - maybe nothing useful, because the new techs in it, like radar and avionics comes from F35 and they won't share them with us. So it most likely will be ToT of the GE F110-132 engine, that can't be used in LCA!

*What will be the benefit for our industry?*

Our industry will benefit the most, if they get techs that are new and helps to improve their capabilities, also co-developments and co-production will be benefits too.
So the most benefit should come through Rafales full ToT and EF's partnership in production offer, both could lead to further co-developments.

*What are India's long-term geo-political goals?*
The same that Brazil has I would say,


> to boost its ambitions of becoming one of the 21st century's great powers.



*
We already have a deal with France. Should we reinforce it?
*
We already had Mirage 2k and Jags for years, bought 6 new subs and new nuclear power plants. France was a reliable partner in the past and in sanction time, also they can offer nearly any arm that Russia can offer (tanks, fighters, subs, ships, helicopters...), so they would be a perfect stratigic partner for India besides Russia!

*If we negotiate with the US, will we be forced to toe the line on its policies?*

Without a doubt, there are enough examples for it and it is obvious that they want us as a counterweight against China. A relationship to US is not wrong, but only for not so important arms and in smaller numbers at the moment. To remain independent and non aligned should be an important issue for India!

*Are there advantages to negotiating with the Swedes?*

Not really, Sweden is too small and is highly dependent on other countries in developments of arms, also they don't have the political power that would be an advantage for India.


The final decision in Brazil will be taken in oct, it will be interesting to see how it will end and what the final reasons was. Because these could be good reasons for India too.

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## rajeev

I wish India goes for Eurofigher that will be more suited to India strategically.

Though Rafale gives full ToT of gen 4 machine, it will not be worth it. As far as I heard, Rafale has hardly made any dent of selling its planes, that probably is an illustration of its capabilities in regards to other flying birds.

Gripen is not worth, there is no future strategic nor any short term tactful benefit in buying that. It is good machine and relatively cheap but still has less ToT with US permission for anything.

Buying F16 is totally useless for MRCA order because Pak pilots would have learned all that could be learned to use the plane more tactfully and besides it is plane introduced in 1970's.

Mig-35 is not required as we already have 5th gen plane getting built with partnership. Besides, delivery time would rather unpredictable with Russian build.

F18 is also a good alternative, but I am not very sure about US's long term intentions with India. This would be a risk.

Eurofighters are best of the plane and could win airbattle with any of the planes above if met in equal numbers. The biggest advantage with Eurofighters is that we will be allowed to become partner i.e. this would be another avenue to get into another 5th gen plane (besides the partnership we have with Russia for PAK FA)

Eurofighters also have the same problem as Gripen that US has lot of control but Europeans will also have a stake in helping us if a problem arise in future.

I think there is a good chance we will also get into F35 if China/US love/hate relation continues. That would mean 3 different avenues of getting 5th gen planes. 

Relative safety in diversity and in future how trends emerge we can choose winners. Personally, I am sick and tired of LCA project that it never comes out.


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## brahmastra

I read somewhere that IAF was planning to conceder Mirage 2000/5 for the MRCA competition but they already shutdown the production line.they agreed to reopen the production line of mirage 2000/5 but they want assurance that they will get contract which we cannot do before evaluating other jets.

Rafale is advance than the mirages and we all know that IAF pilots really likes to fly these birds(mirages). so, may be IAF got soft corner for the 'advance version of the mirages'. 

Iwould like to see rafale to win the mmrca.


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## gogbot

brahmastra said:


> I read somewhere that IAF was planning to conceder Mirage 2000/5 for the MRCA competition but they already shutdown the production line.they agreed to reopen the production line of mirage 2000/5 but they want assurance that they will get contract which we cannot do before evaluating other jets.
> 
> Rafale is advance than the mirages and we all know that IAF pilots really likes to fly these birds(mirages). so, may be IAF got soft corner for the 'advance version of the mirages'.
> 
> Iwould like to see rafale to win the mmrca.



Rafael, F-18, and Euro fighter does it really matter which one we choose. 

IAF wins either way.
All of them are some of the most advanced machines in the world, and a few years from now one will join the IAF. 

In fact other than the SAAB Griphen, any of the fighter would be a valued addition to the IAF.


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## rajeev

gogbot said:


> Rafael, F-18, and Euro fighter does it really matter which one we choose.
> 
> IAF wins either way.
> All of them are some of the most advanced machines in the world, and a few years from now one will join the IAF.
> 
> In fact other than the SAAB Griphen, any of the fighter would be a valued addition to the IAF.


I think it matters because we have multiple entry points to develop 5th gen plane.

Eurofighter would be a good avenue to the foot in door for the europe's 5th gen plane and become a partner.

Rafale unforunately is a dying model, there is not enough people that want and over long period France wont be able to sustain it. So if we buy Rafale we will be owing something that a probability of no future.

We already PAK FA in our pocket but we can never guarantee with Russia. If Russia has money issues again, they will also sell same tech to Chinese officially or unofficially and we will be fighting some JXX with similar tech. Currently, Chinese problem is that no major power wants to give them any high tech (except in some cases Russia) and neither would India have the potential to fight Chinese in numbers. Chinese goes for numbers and Indians typically go for quality and I think that trend should remain.

There is a definite possibility that we will also get F-35 as well. And I hope some day we we will have fourth track of 5th gen (our own).


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## gogbot

rajeev said:


> I think it matters because we have multiple entry points to develop 5th gen plane.
> 
> Eurofighter would be a good avenue to the foot in door for the europe's 5th gen plane and become a partner.
> 
> Rafale unforunately is a dying model, there is not enough people that want and over long period France wont be able to sustain it. So if we buy Rafale we will be owing something that a probability of no future.
> 
> We already PAK FA in our pocket but we can never guarantee with Russia. If Russia has money issues again, they will also sell same tech to Chinese officially or unofficially and we will be fighting some JXX with similar tech. Currently, Chinese problem is that no major power wants to give them any high tech (except in some cases Russia) and neither would India have the potential to fight Chinese in numbers. Chinese goes for numbers and Indians typically go for quality and I think that trend should remain.
> 
> There is a definite possibility that we will also get F-35 as well. And I hope some day we we will have fourth track of 5th gen (our own).



Frankly at this point we already have 2 5th gen fighter programs.
do we really need another.

Any fighter India gets will largely increase its strengths.

But we have so many different fighters at this point that commonality with existing infrastructure is the real issue. 

These are the planes the IAF will operate for the next 20 years.
Su-30 MKI
MIG- 33(super fulcrum)(upgraded mig-29)
Hindustan fighter Mk-2(with kaveri)+ MCA (Kaveri GTX)
Mirage
Pak-FA(1 wing)
FGFA
MMRCA + HF MK1

nearly nine different engines.

frankly Getting the plane that has the same engine as the LCA will be the best move at this point.

So we have 
Euro-fighter vs F/A-18 SH-IN


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## Iggy

3)India will then have to maintain 6-8 different fighters

Kaiser,

MRCA is mainly for replacing fighters like MIG 23,27 and Mirage so that they can avoid logistical nightmare in the future..


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## BSF

2005 thread bumped.........hmmmmmm!


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## rubyjackass

This thread started when I was a kid 
Anyways the number is 126 right? Not 200 as it was mentioned?


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## Myth_buster_1

rubyjackass said:


> This thread started when I was a kid
> Anyways the number is 126 right? Not 200 as it was mentioned?



126 initial plan and i think later on fallow on orders will fallow so the 200 mark could be realistic.


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## sancho

rajeev said:


> I think it matters because we have multiple entry points to develop 5th gen plane.
> 
> Eurofighter would be a good avenue to the foot in door for the europe's 5th gen plane and become a partner.



Actually you just gave me more reasons why IAF should buy Rafale!

UK and ITA are partners in the EF consortium, but they also teamed up with US for 5. gen F35, which leaves only Germany and Spain for a possible co-development. Spain must get F35 at least for their navy, because the VTOL F35B is the only 5. gen fighter that can land on their carriers. So from all EF members only Germany could be left! But Germany can't fund, or produce it on their own and where do you think they will go for a possible partner in Europe? To France and Dassault!!!
Now think about it once again, if the aim of MMRCA would be to find a possible partner for another 5. gen co-development, is EF the best choice from Europe, or Rafale? 

Also the next indigenous fighter project could be MCA, which is aimed to replace Jaguars, Mirage 2000 and possibly upg Mig 27. Main capabilities are stealth, precision & special strike missions, BVR and close combat. Other features are, that it should be in the medium weight class, low observable and has advanced avionics.
Except of stealth, these are *exactly* the same capabilities and features that would describe the Rafale and it also replaces the same Mirage 2000 and Jaguars that Rafale replace in France. So if HAL would search for a co-development partner for MCA, could there be a better partner than Dassault?
Even if we develop it on our own, is there a better fighter to learn from than the Rafale?

F35 for India gets more and more unlikely, because it will come to late for IAF and IN seems to order more Mig 29Ks and the next bigger indigenous carrier will have FGFA.


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## rajeev

sancho said:


> Actually you just gave me more reasons why IAF should buy Rafale!
> 
> UK and ITA are partners in the EF consortium, but they also teamed up with US for 5. gen F35, which leaves only Germany and Spain for a possible co-development. Spain must get F35 at least for their navy, because the VTOL F35B is the only 5. gen fighter that can land on their carriers. So from all EF members only Germany could be left! But Germany can't fund, or produce it on their own and where do you think they will go for a possible partner in Europe? To France and Dassault!!!
> Now think about it once again, if the aim of MMRCA would be to find a possible partner for another 5. gen co-development, is EF the best choice from Europe, or Rafale?
> 
> Also the next indigenous fighter project could be MCA, which is aimed to replace Jaguars, Mirage 2000 and possibly upg Mig 27. Main capabilities are stealth, precision & special strike missions, BVR and close combat. Other features are, that it should be in the medium weight class, low observable and has advanced avionics.
> Except of stealth, these are *exactly* the same capabilities and features that would describe the Rafale and it also replaces the same Mirage 2000 and Jaguars that Rafale replace in France. So if HAL would search for a co-development partner for MCA, could there be a better partner than Dassault?
> Even if we develop it on our own, is there a better fighter to learn from than the Rafale?
> 
> F35 for India gets more and more unlikely, because it will come to late for IAF and IN seems to order more Mig 29Ks and the next bigger indigenous carrier will have FGFA.



UK has increased its order for Eurofighter so has Germany. Saudi Arabia placed an order of 79 just recently.

Rafale seems have to lost its niche. It has not got any orders. Yes, there will lot of free tech for India, but you have to remember our problem is to deal with China.

China will produce things in quantity and we donot have resources match in numbers, but certainly we can better quality stuff that would destroy their morale.

Eurofighters are the next planes after F22 currently. So, why not shoot for quality.

Regarding F35, I am confident we will get it. This obama-regime is anti-India, but there will be new government in future. Just like China is a threat to us, it is an emerging threat to US and Europe as well. They need an ally.

We all know for sure that China will be attacking Taiwan and US will learn the lesson of befriending China. US is more like India, where learnt after the incident. India's current job is stay below the radar increase the potency of the economy and military.

Russia is stuck between rock and hard place. China is more threat to Russia and so they wont favor to sell anything important to them, and most Western Europe hate them so they wont be buying weapons. They only have us to sell things to, and so we can be picky in what we choose.


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## sancho

rubyjackass said:


> This thread started when I was a kid
> Anyways the number is 126 right? Not 200 as it was mentioned?


126 are right, but there were reports of 74 optional. Imo it will depend on how much Jaguars will be upg, if IAF only upg 40 like they did with Mig 27, the optional MMRCAs would be a good replacement.


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## sancho

rajeev said:


> UK has increased its order for Eurofighter so has Germany. Saudi Arabia placed an order of 79 just recently.


Not really! They hardly said yes to their tranche 3A order, because of high pressure from Germany, but all reports hints that they won't buy all EFs they wanted to order in tranche 3B and Saudi is thinking about more (or those that normally was ordered from UK), but nothing is ordered so far.


rajeev said:


> Rafale seems have to lost its niche. It has not got any orders.


Only because of political presure, in Singapur and now in Brasil it reached the final stage, whereas the EF was shortlisted before. And now Brazil seems to order at least 36 with 120 possible and 60 could be ordered by UAE. 


rajeev said:


> Yes, there will lot of free tech for India, but you have to remember our problem is to deal with China.
> 
> China will produce things in quantity and we donot have resources match in numbers, but certainly we can better quality stuff that would destroy their morale.
> 
> Eurofighters are the next planes after F22 currently. So, why not shoot for quality.


And you think that Rafale is qualitatively inferior to J11 and J10? As gogbot said, all MMRCA would increase the quality level, because they are more advanced than anything that China has, so no doubt about quality in future IAF fleet.
I am not saying EF is a bad fighter, but it is not suited for IAF because we have a comparable fighter with MKI and will get a better fighter with FGFA in the same role.


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## rajeev

sancho said:


> Not really! They hardly said yes to their tranche 3A order, because of high pressure from Germany, but all reports hints that they won't buy all EFs they wanted to order in tranche 3B and Saudi is thinking about more (or those that normally was ordered from UK), but nothing is ordered so far.
> Only because of political presure, in Singapur and now in Brasil it reached the final stage, whereas the EF was shortlisted before. And now Brazil seems to order at least 36 with 120 possible and 60 could be ordered by UAE.
> 
> And you think that Rafale is qualitatively inferior to J11 and J10? As gogbot said, all MMRCA would increase the quality level, because they are more advanced than anything that China has, so no doubt about quality in future IAF fleet.
> I am not saying EF is a bad fighter, but it is not suited for IAF because we have a comparable fighter with MKI and will get a better fighter with FGFA in the same role.



No, I dont think Rafale is inferior to even JXX by a long shot. But we should be aware whatever things China lays hands or it is able to procure, it will be made in huge numbers. If a war happens between China and India, it will be between Goliath and David.

They may end up have 1500 or so planes and we have only about 800 of which only 300+ are superior to any they have.

Su-MKI is Russian plane, Russia also sells Su-30 MKK to China as well. So, we will be facing them. We need something better than that to take out their air defence.

Rafale is a good choice because we will get full ToT and start with a base and hopefully complete LCA and MCA one day 

But among the choices we have got, EF is best in all regards when you compare technical specs. 

You have to remember that Saudi may try to interject us in case of war in Pakistan (some form of Muslim patronage) and they will have EF.


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## Tejas-MkII

This one is from Gripen...

FORCE - A Complete News Magazine on National Security - Defence Magazine

Saab to give AESA radar with its software code to India
By Vidhi Upadhyay 

Just as the MRCA competition enters its trials phase in India, Saab whose Gripen NG is in race, held a press conference in New Delhi, announcing its offering of an even advanced version of the AESA radar with the fighter jet. 

Talking to the press in New Delhi, Gripens India Director Eddy de la Motte said, What we are offering here is the AESA radar which comes with an edge that increases its capability manifold times. The radar on the Gripen will be fitted on a swash plate that enables it to rotate mechanically and look behind as well. 

With the swash plate solution, *the Gripen NG AESA radar has the ability to a scan angle up to +100 degrees. This will increase the situational awareness and will be used to increase the quality of SAR images. *In BVR combat, wide angle scan also allows the aircraft to maintain track on target whilst executing a 90 degree manoeuvre. This minimises closure rate with the target, placing the aircraft in the enemys clutter return and still allows full guidance of BVR missiles. Finmeccanica company Selex Galileo and the Saab Microwave Systems, a part of the Saab business unit will be joined in the joint radar development program.


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## Tejas-MkII

FORCE - A Complete News Magazine on National Security - Defence Magazine

Jamming Modes
The solid-state self-protection jammer

ELT might not ring a bell immediately, but a little digging will tell you that the Italian company has stakes in the multi-billion MRCA deal. Involved in the design and production of electronic warfare systems for defence and security needs, ELT or Elettronica has integrated its *ELT/568(V)2 self-protection jammer onboard the Russian Aircraft Cooperations &#1052;iG-35 fighter*. The solid-state self-protection jammer, a mock-up of which was at the recently concluded DSEi 2009 at London, ensures the aircrafts self-defence from radar-controlled anti-aircraft artillery, air to air and surface to air missiles, as well as provides jamming of air interceptor radars. 

The jammer is based on advanced system architecture and incorporates in-house hi-tech components to represent threat responsive solutions. The solid state jammer can operate in a very dense electromagnetic environment against pulse and CW threat emissions. Its power management concept is implemented through a threat tailored ECM response. The stand alone mode of operation jammer has a high degree of integration level with platform avionics and other onboard Defence aid systems. It has internal installations for high band and a slim-line pod for medium band. The system is basically a dual band self protection equipment requiring both internal and podded units to cope with the expected threat scenario. Its main features include its multi-threat tracking capability to effectively cope with simultaneous threats coming from any direction by its two features  *Firstly, by exploiting its Active Phased Array Antennas featuring electronic beam steering both during transmission and reception mode and secondly, by tailored and fully programmable jamming techniques and programs produced by a multi-role DRFM (Digital RF Memory). *

As it has happened today, the systems in service today are increasingly dependent on mission support systems. ELTs Electronic Warfare Operational Support has special emphasis on the design, development, and integration of EW operational support infrastructures together with simulation solutions for EW training purposes. These solutions are usually tailor made for 
customers. ELT is mainly focused on developing the following:

EW database management systems based on flexible and open architecture, *which allows the management of all EW data coming from intelligence agencies, ELINT Systems, recording systems, loaded into the system automatically and/or manually by operators*. 

Library Generation and Validations Systems: The system can generate and validate all libraries used by EW equipment installed on air, naval and ground platforms the library data generation system is based on modular design concept implemented by the Missiona Data Preparation Program (MDPP). Each MDPP allows the operator to create, modify, print and maintain, under configuration control, specific equipment libraries. The validation system incorporates both hardware and software sub systems, which can validate EW suite libraries and optimise them using a hybrid simulation bench. 

EW Simulation applications for training purposes: the company has longstanding experience in the implementation of the EW training capabilities through specific hardware and software solutions. New Generation EW simulators provide high-fidelity models and powerful real time simulation. The training facility for EW operators, pilots, and experts to ensure full preparedness include Computer-based trainer, EW part task trainer, On board EW simulators and EW modules integrated as part of Full Mission Simulators. The above items can be integrated as part of full mission simulators.

EW Solutions for Mission Planners: *the system allows planning of all aspects of an electronic warfare mission, including jamming, data collection and suppression. *Also, it can assess the impact of mission planning on enemy sensors to enhance mission success. It provides route analysis tools to determine the best route in terms of user-selected objectives and constraints (e.g. threat analysis, route analysis). It also provides support to the mission planner for automatic and manual determination of optimum route based on terrain masking, threat parameters, threat location, platform Radar cross-section and onboard electronic sensors effectiveness. 

Briefing and debriefing tools: *These tools provide the operator with the capability to review/replay the recorded mission data for post mission analysis.* In addition to providing standard download mission information, it covert it into the appropriate format and distribute such data to specific systems. 

The companys major order intake is the domestic market that is in Italy, besides it has an impressive presence in armed force of 28 nations in Europe, Africa, Middle East, South America and Oceania. The maximum order intake is for systems for fighter aircraft (41 per cent), followed by naval systems for ships (28 per cent). *Its product line covers a whole range of Electronic Defense systems and equipment (SIGINT, ELINT, ESM, ECM, RWR etc) in the radar bands, as well as support and training * 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

IT'S LOOK LIKE IAF HAVE :"PAANCHO UNGLIYAN GHEE MEIN" and hand on their heads


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## dbc

Tejas-MkII said:


> Talking to the press in New Delhi, Gripen&#8217;s India Director Eddy de la Motte said, &#8220;What we are offering here is the AESA radar which comes with an edge that increases its capability manifold times. The radar on the Gripen will be fitted on a swash plate that enables it to rotate mechanically *and look behind as well.*&#8221;



...look behind as well."   

..I'm surprised they're willing to part with the source code - very surprised!


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## arya

Srirangan said:


> The number of the MRCA deal has been increased from 126 to 200, some reports indicated 210. The speculation is that the order will be split betw more than one vendor. All four candidates appear to be equally likely, this is going to be interesting.



LINK PLZ


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## raveolution

arya said:


> LINK PLZ



As of now, no announcement has been made whether it will be 200 firm orders. The deal is for 126 aircraft with an option of purchasing upto 200. I think the exact number will be decided by end 2010, by when the final decision on the contender would be made.

Indian Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## arya

ok sir
i want to see 100 rafel n 50 ef2000 in iaf colours


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## raveolution

arya said:


> ok sir
> i want to see 100 rafel n 50 ef2000 in iaf colours



Lol.. everyone would like see a 100 of both aircraft in the IAF. However the IAF will consider only one otherwise there would be a huge logistics, spares and commonality issue. Not a bad idea though... 100 Rafale and a 100 EF's.. Crazy!!


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## brahmastra

raveolution said:


> Lol.. everyone would like see a 100 of both aircraft in the IAF. *However the IAF will consider only one otherwise there would be a huge logistics, spares and commonality issue.* Not a bad idea though... 100 Rafale and a 100 EF's.. Crazy!!



You are right! 
I reckon, we are moderate operator of Dassault made plane(Mirage 2000) and Master operator of migs(which plane? you name it!). so, we should go for either rafale or mig-35. And if we split order due to political decision than split between these two. Just my thoughts.


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## arya

raveolution said:


> Lol.. everyone would like see a 100 of both aircraft in the IAF. However the IAF will consider only one otherwise there would be a huge logistics, spares and commonality issue. Not a bad idea though... *100 Rafale and a 100 EF's*.. Crazy!!



so what about chingpang lui n his stretegikkkk partner


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## sancho

It was stated before that MMRCA will come from a single vendor and won't be splitted, which is the right move to reduce the logistics that IAF has now (6 different types of fighters + LCA next year and Sea Harrier of IN).


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## Screaming Skull

sancho said:


> It was stated before that MMRCA will come from a single vendor and won't be splitted, which is the right move to reduce the logistics that IAF has now (6 different types of fighters + LCA next year and Sea Harrier of IN).



That is the IAFs stated position. MoD will take the final call and I wont be surprised if they do go for a split order to keep the cart rolling.

btw, Mig-35 has arrived in Bangalore!

Reactions: Like Like:
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## sancho

Screaming Skull said:


> That is the IAFs stated position. MoD will take the final call and I wont be surprised if they do go for a split order to keep the cart rolling.
> 
> btw, Mig-35 has arrived in Bangalore!


There is no real reason for a split, because only the Mig 21 Bisons will be left to replace (Mig 27, Mig 29, Mirage 2K and most likely all Jags will be upgraded). So if 126 is the total requirement, we would reduce the benefits that we could get (ToT, or other related deals) if we split the deal.
Any pics of the Mig 35 single seat? What about pics, or news about the teens, the Rafale and their performance so far?


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## sancho

*Eurojet proposes thrust-vectoring upgrade for Typhoon*

VIDEO: Eurojet proposes thrust-vectoring upgrade for Typhoon

With 2 videos of the nozzels!


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## sancho

News from the Brazilian competition!



> *Saab has today submitted an update on the proposal offering 36 Gripen Next Generation (NG) to the Brazilian Air Force.*
> 
> The offer consists of a cost-effective solution, a comprehensive Technology Transfer and a unique competitive partnership between Brazil and Sweden...



Saab - Saab delivers the perfect match to Brazil


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## holysaturn

Broadsword

by Ajai Shukla
Business Standard, 16th Oct 09
New Delhi


The winners jackpot could soon become even bigger in what is already the worlds most lucrative fighter aircraft tender: Indias proposed purchase of 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) for an estimated Rs 51,000 crore ($11 billion).


The reason: a breakdown in Indias long-running negotiations with French aircraft manufacturer, Dassault Aviation, for upgrading 51 Indian Air Force Mirage-2000 fighters. According to senior IAF sources, Dassault has flatly refused to reduce its quote of Rs 10,000 crores (US $2.1 billion) for extending the service life of the IAFs Mirage-2000 fleet by fitting new radars and avionics. The Ministry of Defence (MoD) considers this price --- Rs 196 crores (US $41 million) per aircraft --- unacceptably high, given that the airframes and engines will not be changed.


In comparison, each of the 126 brand-new, next-generation MMRCAs will cost some Rs 400 crores (US $87 million) per aircraft. That includes the cost of technology transfers, as well as capital costs for setting up a manufacturing line in India. Once those costs are amortised, additional MMRCAs would be significantly cheaper.


Dassaults India head, Posina V Rao has not returned multiple phone calls from Business Standard. MoD sources say that Rao is engaged in last-ditch attempts to salvage the deal.


But, the MoD is veering around to the viewpoint that the Mirage-2000 fleet should continue service in its current form. After six squadrons (126 aircraft) of MMRCAs have entered IAF service, an additional two squadrons of MMRCAs would be built to replace the 51 Mirage-2000 fighters. That amounts to a 40% rise in the MMRCAs numbers.


Israeli aerospace companies have reportedly entered the fray, offering to upgrade the Mirage-2000 for half the price being quoted by Dassault. The MoD, however, is not inclined to accept that offer.


Price negotiations for the Mirage-2000 upgrade have travelled a rocky road over the last two years. Initially, Dassault quoted Rs 13,500 crores (US $2.9 billion), which it brought down to the current level of Rs 10,000 crores (US $2.1 billion) after the IAF diluted its upgrade requirements. But the MoD believes Dassaults reduced bid only reflects the diluted requirements, rather than any flexibility on the part of Dassault.


The IAF, traditionally a staunch supporter of Dassault and the Mirage-2000 fighter, is apparently changing its views. Dassault, say pilots, has badly damaged its credibility during the recent negotiations by arm-twisting the IAF over the supply of spares for the Mirage-2000 fleet.


The Gwalior-based IAF squadrons that currently fly the Mirage-2000 are Number 1 squadron (Tigers) and Number 7 squadron (Battle Axes).


Five of the six contenders for the MMRCA contract --- Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Eurofighter, Gripen and RAC MiG --- know they could reap handsome gains, through larger fighter orders, if India chooses not to upgrade the Mirage-2000. The sixth contender, Dassault Aviation, realises that failure to negotiate the Mirage-2000 upgrade contract could seriously damage the chances of its Rafale fighter in the MMRCA contract.


The fighters in contention for the MMRCA contract are sequentially undergoing flight trials and evaluation, which the IAF expects to complete by April 2010. It will take another six months to finalise the trial report and submit that to Indias MoD. The MoD will then announce the winner of the contract.


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## marcos98

whats up with this french people, are they turning loco......
trying to arm twist india with just mirage upgrade is almost foolish , could hamper their chances to win mrca, i for one would really want rafale to win the competition


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## gogbot

holysaturn said:


> Broadsword
> 
> by Ajai Shukla
> Business Standard, 16th Oct 09
> New Delhi
> 
> 
> The winner&#8217;s jackpot could soon become even bigger in what is already the world&#8217;s most lucrative fighter aircraft tender: India&#8217;s proposed purchase of 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) for an estimated Rs 51,000 crore ($11 billion).
> 
> 
> The reason: a breakdown in India&#8217;s long-running negotiations with French aircraft manufacturer, Dassault Aviation, for upgrading 51 Indian Air Force Mirage-2000 fighters. According to senior IAF sources, Dassault has flatly refused to reduce its quote of Rs 10,000 crores (US $2.1 billion) for extending the service life of the IAF&#8217;s Mirage-2000 fleet by fitting new radars and avionics. The Ministry of Defence (MoD) considers this price --- Rs 196 crores (US $41 million) per aircraft --- unacceptably high, given that the airframes and engines will not be changed.
> 
> 
> In comparison, each of the 126 brand-new, next-generation MMRCAs will cost some Rs 400 crores (US $87 million) per aircraft. That includes the cost of technology transfers, as well as capital costs for setting up a manufacturing line in India. Once those costs are amortised, additional MMRCAs would be significantly cheaper.
> 
> 
> Dassault&#8217;s India head, Posina V Rao has not returned multiple phone calls from Business Standard. MoD sources say that Rao is engaged in last-ditch attempts to salvage the deal.
> 
> 
> But, the MoD is veering around to the viewpoint that the Mirage-2000 fleet should continue service in its current form. After six squadrons (126 aircraft) of MMRCAs have entered IAF service, an additional two squadrons of MMRCAs would be built to replace the 51 Mirage-2000 fighters. That amounts to a 40&#37; rise in the MMRCA&#8217;s numbers.
> 
> 
> Israeli aerospace companies have reportedly entered the fray, offering to upgrade the Mirage-2000 for half the price being quoted by Dassault. The MoD, however, is not inclined to accept that offer.
> 
> 
> Price negotiations for the Mirage-2000 upgrade have travelled a rocky road over the last two years. Initially, Dassault quoted Rs 13,500 crores (US $2.9 billion), which it brought down to the current level of Rs 10,000 crores (US $2.1 billion) after the IAF diluted its upgrade requirements. But the MoD believes Dassault&#8217;s reduced bid only reflects the diluted requirements, rather than any flexibility on the part of Dassault.
> 
> 
> The IAF, traditionally a staunch supporter of Dassault and the Mirage-2000 fighter, is apparently changing its views. Dassault, say pilots, has badly damaged its credibility during the recent negotiations by arm-twisting the IAF over the supply of spares for the Mirage-2000 fleet.
> 
> 
> The Gwalior-based IAF squadrons that currently fly the Mirage-2000 are Number 1 squadron (Tigers) and Number 7 squadron (Battle Axes).
> 
> 
> Five of the six contenders for the MMRCA contract --- Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Eurofighter, Gripen and RAC MiG --- know they could reap handsome gains, through larger fighter orders, if India chooses not to upgrade the Mirage-2000. The sixth contender, Dassault Aviation, realises that failure to negotiate the Mirage-2000 upgrade contract could seriously damage the chances of its Rafale fighter in the MMRCA contract.
> 
> 
> The fighters in contention for the MMRCA contract are sequentially undergoing flight trials and evaluation, which the IAF expects to complete by April 2010. It will take another six months to finalise the trial report and submit that to India&#8217;s MoD. The MoD will then announce the winner of the contract.



Well, Dassault Aviation just lost 12 billion dollar deal.

The thing IAF hates most is lack of spares and poor reliability.

Bad move by Dassault Aviation, they could have lost India as a customer forever.

Now the battle comes down to 
Eurofighter GmbH(Alenia Aeronautica, BAE Systems, and EADS)
Boeing Integrated Defense Systems

Personally, i think what happened was a good thing
IAF operates too many different types of aircraft.
Now the IAF has an excuse to get rid of the Mirage 2000 with much more modern and capable aircraft.

IAF alredy has different deals with BAE Systems, and EADS, so they can be a good partner for HAL.
Given that Eurofighter GmbH proposed partnership with HAL if Euro fighter was chosen. This involves producing parts for every Euro fighter that will ever be made!



> Bernhard Gerwert, CEO of military air systems, said that India is invited to join the Eurofighter Typhoon programme as a partner. The production of the Eurofighter Typhoon will create thousands of new jobs in India. Bernhard Gerwert, CEO of military air systems, said that in order to win the contract EADS would move avionics jobs from Germany to India. The ongoing campaign is fully supported by the four European nations Germany, United Kingdom, Spain and Italy, their four Air Forces and Europe's leading aerospace companies Alenia/Finmeccanica, BAE Systems and EADS.


?We will shift workload from Germany to India in the area of avionics? - Corporate News - livemint.com

20090213_EADS Aero India

Boeing has also proposed a similar.but in this posters opinion an inferior offer.



> The Super Hornet variant being offered to India is named F/A-18IN. It will include Raytheon's APG-79 AESA radar. In August 2008, Boeing submitted an industrial participation proposal to India describing partnerships with companies in India



http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/military/fa18ef/news/2008/q3/080804a_nr.html

Both are good offers ,but which is the most reliable vendor ?


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## sancho

gogbot said:


> Well, Dassault Aviation just lost 12 billion dollar deal.
> 
> The thing IAF hates most is lack of spares and poor reliability.
> 
> Bad move by Dassault Aviation, they could have lost India as a customer forever.


Just wait for a reliable statement of IAF/MoD, because it was reported before by the media that Dassault/Rafale is out and nothing happend. 


gogbot said:


> IAF alredy has different deals with BAE Systems, and EADS, so they can be a good partner for HAL.


BAE a good partner? Wasn't the problems with spares the reason why IAF didn't want additional Hawk trainers and no sets a new tender?


gogbot said:


> Given that Eurofighter GmbH proposed partnership with HAL if Euro fighter was chosen. This involves producing parts for every Euro fighter that will ever be made!
> 
> Boeing has also proposed a similar.but in this posters opinion an inferior offer.
> 
> Both are good offers ,but which is the most reliable vendor?



No doubt, such a industrial partnership is a great offer for Indian companies, but the point is what the Indian part will be? Indian parts for EF will only be avionics, that will jointly produced in India. But all major airframe, or engine parts will be produced in Europe. So we might get access to latest developments with them, but our part on EF is only a minor. 
For F18SH it could be the other way around, because they won't share their high techs with us, so India producing airframe parts won't be a big risk for them. 
Gripen NG has already South Africa as a partner and offered Brazil a huge involvment in the production, so if Brazil chose them, there is not much left for India.
If I'm not wrong Dassault has not statet such kind of involvement, neither for India, nor for Brazil. Possibly because no exports to other countries was cleared so far and the Rafale will be produced only for France yet. India and Brazil would licence produce them for their own, so such a partnership might only make sense if UAE, Switzerland, or Kuwait buys Rafale too.
The Mig 35 can't offer such a partnership at all, because no other country has ordered it and not even Russia will buy it.
I read somewhere that the whole F16 production line could be transfered to India, if we go for F16IN. The question is, will someone buy F16 after 2014?

Anyway, the most important point must be that the fighter and it's techs are ready, so there is no risk of further delays. I think only the US fighters and Rafale can promise that.


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## Screaming Skull

sancho said:


> There is no real reason for a split, because only the Mig 21 Bisons will be left to replace (Mig 27, Mig 29, Mirage 2K and most likely all Jags will be upgraded). So if 126 is the total requirement, we would reduce the benefits that we could get (ToT, or other related deals) if we split the deal.



Logically, that is absolutely correct. But, the question is will the babus and the ministers in the MoD put logic before personal and political gains?



> Any pics of the Mig 35 single seat? What about pics, or news about the teens, the Rafale and their performance so far?



No pics of the Mig 35 single seater. I just spotted one landing in HAL airport from my balcony. It was a fleeting view, just enough to ascertain that it s a Mig.
Pics of the teens and the Rafale during trials in Bangalore is available on the net. Let me see if I can dig out a few. As far as performance goes, the American companies made a lot of noise but nothing official from the IAF. Rafale trials were quiet as will be the case with the Mig too I guess.

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## Screaming Skull

The alleged cost of upgrades of the M2K quoted by Dassault seems too steep. If the French don't budge, the deal is most likely to fall apart. It s not that we are out of options. The Israelis will do it for half the price and if we negotiate well, they may further bring down the price. This is definitely gonna have a huge bearing on the MMRCA contest. 
The French must seriously consider about pricing of their products. They produce some of the best quality equipment but loose out to competitors due to their poor pricing. If only they could price their products competitively we would have seen more M2Ks and Rafales being sold on the international market.


----------



## Gabbar

IAF's $11-bn order may become larger​

The winners jackpot could soon become even bigger in what is already the worlds most lucrative fighter aircraft tender: Indias proposed purchase of 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) for an estimated Rs 51,000 crore ($11 billion).

*The reason is a breakdown in Indias long negotiations with Dassault Aviation, the French aircraft manufacturer, for upgrading 51 Indian Air Force Mirage-2000 fighters. According to senior IAF sources, Dassault has refused to reduce its quota of Rs 10,000 crore ($2.1 billion) for extending the service life of the IAFs Mirage-2000 fleet by fitting new radars and avionics. The Ministry of Defence (MoD) considers this price  Rs 196 crore ($41 million) per aircraft  unacceptably high, given that the airframes and engines will not be changed.*

In comparison, each of the 126 brand-new, next-generation MMRCAs will cost some Rs 400 crore ($87 million) per aircraft. That includes the cost of technology transfers, as well as capital costs for setting up a manufacturing line in India. Once those costs are amortised, additional MMRCAs would be significantly cheaper.

Dassaults India head, Posina V Rao, did not return multiple phone calls from Business Standard. MoD sources say Rao is engaged in last-ditch attempts to salvage the deal.

But, the MoD is veering around to the view that the Mirage-2000 fleet should continue service in its current form. *After six squadrons (126 aircraft) of MMRCAs have entered IAF service, an additional two squadrons of MMRCAs would be built to replace the 51 Mirage-2000 fighters. *That amounts to a 40 per cent rise in the MMRCAs numbers.

Israeli aerospace companies have reportedly entered the fray, offering to upgrade the Mirage-2000 for half the price being quoted by Dassault. The MoD, however, is not inclined to accept that offer.

Price negotiations for the Mirage-2000 upgrade have travelled a rocky road over two years. Initially, Dassault quoted Rs 13,500 crore ($2.9 billion), which it brought down to the current level of Rs 10,000 crore ($2.1 billion) after the IAF diluted its upgrade requirements. But the MoD believes Dassaults reduced bid only reflects the diluted requirements, rather than any flexibility on the latters part.

*The IAF, traditionally a staunch supporter of Dassault and the Mirage-2000 fighter, is apparently changing its views. Dassault, say pilots, has badly damaged its credibility during the recent negotiations by arm-twisting the IAF over the supply of spares for the Mirage-2000 fleet.*

The Gwalior-based IAF squadrons that currently fly the Mirage-2000 are Number 1 squadron (Tigers) and Number 7 squadron (Battle Axes).

Five of the six contenders for the MMRCA contract  Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Eurofighter, Gripen and RAC MiG  know they could reap handsome gains, through larger fighter orders, if India chooses not to upgrade the Mirage-2000. *The sixth contender, Dassault Aviation itself, realises failure to negotiate the Mirage-2000 upgrade contract could seriously damage the chances of its Rafale fighter for the MMRCA contract.*

The fighters in contention for the MMRCA contract are sequentially undergoing flight trials and evaluation, which the IAF expects to complete by April 2010. It will take another six months to finalise the trial report and send that to the MoD, which will then announce the winner of the contract.

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## Kharian_Beast

Screaming Skull said:


> The alleged cost of upgrades of the M2K quoted by Dassault seems too steep. If the French don't budge, the deal is most likely to fall apart. It s not that we are out of options. The Israelis will do it for half the price and if we negotiate well, they may further bring down the price. This is definitely gonna have a huge bearing on the MMRCA contest.
> The French must seriously consider about pricing of their products. They produce some of the best quality equipment but loose out to competitors due to their poor pricing. If only they could price their products competitively we would have seen more M2Ks and Rafales being sold on the international market.



Even though I am inclined to think Dassault Rafale is out of the tender because of the soured M2K upgrade deal, I don't think the issue is as tied into the competition at this stage, though in the very end it will be a sore thumb that sticks out. France will be overlooked and is being given bad vibes because the technology comes at a very steep price with little benefit to GoI. They aren't even ready to upgrade their most potent strike fighter even when they are dripping in money. Probably the biggest overlying factor of what has to be chosen revolves around what suits the air force AND the government for their strategic long term needs. Countries like France and Sweden at this stage can't do that for India if her dreams of superpowerdom develop at the grass roots level. It would be a bad investment if all you get in return is the rights to copy-produce a few aircraft. Russia can be but there is a big factor here...China flies mostly Russian technology, and for the US's plan to prop up India to work and for India to feel legitimate against China, the PLAAF must feel threatened by the IAF and the only way to do that is fly superior American planes as testament to similar situations in South East Asia where China has basically been kept in check by the likes of Hornets Eagles and Falcons. India is never going to pass this up, whether or not she will get the source codes for APG-79. There is more to MMRCA tender than it seems, it is geo-politics in action. What I think is that India was going to the US in the first place but due to the sheer number of the aircraft and the high level of technology which states guard as secrets, a competition/fairy tale/circus/road show was created to highlight some of the foremost aircraft in the world to the rest of us but cover up the American stoogehood against China. But everyone knows nothing scares the piss out of anyone more than new American military hardware.


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## sudhir007

Eurojet proposes thrust-vectoring upgrade for Typhoon IDRW.ORG

Eurofighter and engine supplier Eurojet are stepping up their efforts to interest Typhoon customer nations in a thrust-vectoring upgrade that promises to bring substantial operational benefits and pay for itself through lifecycle cost reductions.

Equipping the twin-engined Typhoon&#8217;s EJ200s with thrust vectoring nozzles (TVN) could reduce fuel burn on a typical mission by up to 5&#37;, while increasing available thrust in supersonic cruise by up to 7%, the engine consortium says.

Eurojet partner ITP benchtested a TVN several years ago, and EADS earlier this year equipped its Typhoon cockpit simulator to emulate the performance enhancements offered by the technology.

The industrial partners are now looking for funding to launch a flight-demonstrator programme.

Thrust vectoring could provide a virtual control surface when coupled with the Typhoon&#8217;s flight-control system, improving survivability, manoeuvrability and the aircraft&#8217;s ability to carry an asymmetric weapons load. It also reduces trim drag and therefore fuel consumption by &#8220;unloading&#8221; aerodynamic control


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## gogbot

sudhir007 said:


> Eurojet proposes thrust-vectoring upgrade for Typhoon IDRW.ORG
> 
> Eurofighter and engine supplier Eurojet are stepping up their efforts to interest Typhoon customer nations in a thrust-vectoring upgrade that promises to bring substantial operational benefits and pay for itself through lifecycle cost reductions.
> 
> Equipping the twin-engined Typhoons EJ200s with thrust vectoring nozzles (TVN) could reduce fuel burn on a typical mission by up to 5%, while increasing available thrust in supersonic cruise by up to 7%, the engine consortium says.
> 
> Eurojet partner ITP benchtested a TVN several years ago, and EADS earlier this year equipped its Typhoon cockpit simulator to emulate the performance enhancements offered by the technology.
> 
> The industrial partners are now looking for funding to launch a flight-demonstrator programme.
> 
> Thrust vectoring could provide a virtual control surface when coupled with the Typhoons flight-control system, improving survivability, manoeuvrability and the aircrafts ability to carry an asymmetric weapons load. It also reduces trim drag and therefore fuel consumption by unloading aerodynamic control



Must we still maintain this pre-text

Lets just get Euro Fighter and get it over it.


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## sancho

Kharian_Beast said:


> France will be overlooked and is being given bad vibes because the technology comes at a very steep price with little benefit to GoI...
> ...Probably the biggest overlying factor of what has to be chosen revolves around what suits the air force AND the government for their strategic long term needs. Countries like France and Sweden at this stage can't do that for India if her dreams of superpowerdom develop at the grass roots level.


I agree with you in case of Sweden, but you totally underestimating the power of France!
Togehter with Germany it is clearly the major power in the EU, it is a veto power in the UN and is already supporting India for a permanent UN seat. But IMO the biggest advantage of France for India is, that it is an independent country, that is not influenced, or under control of USA, or other nations. This makes them a reliable and sanction prove partner for us, besides Russia.
Also don't forget that France can provide nearly anything to India that Russia, or US can. Space developments, nuclear energy, tanks, subs, fighters, transport aircrafts, ships, even carriers and the list goes on. Not even Israel can compete that, so in stratigic terms, no doubt France and the Rafale are the best choice in MMRCA, besides US and F18SH. 


Kharian_Beast said:


> Russia can be but there is a big factor here...China flies mostly Russian technology, and for the US's plan to prop up India to work and for India to feel legitimate against China, the PLAAF must feel threatened by the IAF and the only way to do that is fly superior American planes as testament to similar situations in South East Asia where China has basically been kept in check by the likes of Hornets Eagles and Falcons.


Nobody doubts the capabilities of the American fighters, but it is their control and influence that is not good for India! Just look at South Korea and Japan, that lost nearly all independence in own developments, or procurements and are highly influenced on the american weapon industry. It would be silly of India to counter the dependence on Russia with a new dependence on America right? So if they are ready to give us a deal with less restrictions and arms twisting, they can be a good choice, but if not there are enough options.


gogbot said:


> Must we still maintain this pre-text
> 
> Lets just get Euro Fighter and get it over it.


The engine for LCA yes, EF as MMRCA no! 
After the latest reports that Mod is pushing Russia for a faster development of FGFA, with the aim of inducting it in 2017, air superiority fighters like EF and Mig 35 are nearly out of MMRCA. FGFA will have exactly the same capabilities, will be in the same weight class and with stealth, it will be clearly superior, so why should we start licence production of them in 2015, if they will be pretty useless within 2 years? 
No mate, this development hints even more for a focus on strikes in MMRCA, what makes Rafale and F18SH clearly the front runners.


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## sancho

*Rafale with CFTs:*









If these are available in MMRCA, it would make 2 more weapon stations free for any type of heavy a2g weapon.

Up to 12 x 200 - 300Kg guided bombs
Up to 5 x 400 - 500 Kg, or even 1000 Kg guided bombs
Up to 5 x Scalp, Exocet, Harpoon, Harm, or Alarm missiles

And additionally to these heavy loads, it still can carry 6 x A2A missiles!

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## syntax_error

IS the SPECTRA suite for the rafale's part of the MRCA if yes are we getting TOT for that ????


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## Haanzo

^^^ spectra is also included in TOT and the french have agreed to that

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## syntax_error

^^^ if thats the case  there should be no doubt but to go for the rafale .....
also then the price for upgrading of the Migares might come down considerably....


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## sudhir007



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## sancho

> *Rotating E-Scan Radar May Push Eurofighter Exports*
> 
> ROME - The new "repositionable" electronically scanned radar being proposed for the Eurofighter could make the difference for the fighter in export markets, its designers claim...
> 
> ..."We believe the repositionable antenna is the way ahead and this will be approved by the Eurofighter partners," said Bob Mason, marketing and sales vice president for radar and advanced targeting at *Selex Galileo*. "It will be a differentiator in the export market place when competing against French and U.S. competitors which feature only fixed antennae."
> 
> Selex Galileo, EADS and Indra form the Euroradar consortium...
> 
> ...*"We would like to get at least a view of a common requirement by year end (from Eurofighter partners). Everyone recognizes the need for AESA radar for export campaigns like India," he said.
> 
> "If we get a requirement by year end we can have the radar ready for Tranche 3 Eurofighters but it will be very tight." *



Rotating E-Scan Radar May Push Eurofighter Exports - Defense News

The important points of the article are, that the same company that makes the EF radar, also makes the Gripen NG radar and the repositionable radar array sounds pretty much like the same tech. So why should someone buy a very expensive EF if the Gripen NG provides the same techs? Also will the EF consortium veto the joined development of BAE and Saab like French and US did before, as Sweden wanted to use their techs for a radar development?

The article also says, the EF AESA development is still unsure, because the EF consortium members still did not decided about the further development! 
The main problems are fundings, because UK wants AESA, but don't has the money now, ITA says they are happy with the Captor M PESA and don't want to fund further developments (ITA is already involved in F35 development and ordered 131 for their air force and navy, which could be a point too). At the end only Germany and Spain are left, but even Germany thinks about reduction of their initial EF order, because of the high cost and the lack of money after the financial crisis.
This sadly shows once again that EF might be a very capable fighter some day, but the question is when? Delays in development and production are more than obvious and that is something that an air force like ours, with shrinking squad numbers don't need.


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## Chanakyaa

holysaturn said:


> Broadsword
> 
> by Ajai Shukla
> Business Standard, 16th Oct 09
> New Delhi
> 
> 
> The winners jackpot could soon become even bigger in what is already the worlds most lucrative fighter aircraft tender: Indias proposed purchase of 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) for an estimated Rs 51,000 crore ($11 billion).
> 
> 
> The reason: a breakdown in Indias long-running negotiations with French aircraft manufacturer, Dassault Aviation, for upgrading 51 Indian Air Force Mirage-2000 fighters. According to senior IAF sources, Dassault has flatly refused to reduce its quote of Rs 10,000 crores (US $2.1 billion) for extending the service life of the IAFs Mirage-2000 fleet by fitting new radars and avionics. The Ministry of Defence (MoD) considers this price --- Rs 196 crores (US $41 million) per aircraft --- unacceptably high, given that the airframes and engines will not be changed.
> 
> 
> In comparison, each of the 126 brand-new, next-generation MMRCAs will cost some Rs 400 crores (US $87 million) per aircraft. That includes the cost of technology transfers, as well as capital costs for setting up a manufacturing line in India. Once those costs are amortised, additional MMRCAs would be significantly cheaper.
> 
> 
> Dassaults India head, Posina V Rao has not returned multiple phone calls from Business Standard. MoD sources say that Rao is engaged in last-ditch attempts to salvage the deal.
> 
> 
> But, the MoD is veering around to the viewpoint that the Mirage-2000 fleet should continue service in its current form. After six squadrons (126 aircraft) of MMRCAs have entered IAF service, an additional two squadrons of MMRCAs would be built to replace the 51 Mirage-2000 fighters. That amounts to a 40% rise in the MMRCAs numbers.
> 
> 
> Israeli aerospace companies have reportedly entered the fray, offering to upgrade the Mirage-2000 for half the price being quoted by Dassault. The MoD, however, is not inclined to accept that offer.
> 
> 
> Price negotiations for the Mirage-2000 upgrade have travelled a rocky road over the last two years. Initially, Dassault quoted Rs 13,500 crores (US $2.9 billion), which it brought down to the current level of Rs 10,000 crores (US $2.1 billion) after the IAF diluted its upgrade requirements. But the MoD believes Dassaults reduced bid only reflects the diluted requirements, rather than any flexibility on the part of Dassault.
> 
> 
> The IAF, traditionally a staunch supporter of Dassault and the Mirage-2000 fighter, is apparently changing its views. Dassault, say pilots, has badly damaged its credibility during the recent negotiations by arm-twisting the IAF over the supply of spares for the Mirage-2000 fleet.
> 
> 
> The Gwalior-based IAF squadrons that currently fly the Mirage-2000 are Number 1 squadron (Tigers) and Number 7 squadron (Battle Axes).
> 
> 
> Five of the six contenders for the MMRCA contract --- Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Eurofighter, Gripen and RAC MiG --- know they could reap handsome gains, through larger fighter orders, if India chooses not to upgrade the Mirage-2000. The sixth contender, Dassault Aviation, realises that failure to negotiate the Mirage-2000 upgrade contract could seriously damage the chances of its Rafale fighter in the MMRCA contract.
> 
> 
> The fighters in contention for the MMRCA contract are sequentially undergoing flight trials and evaluation, which the IAF expects to complete by April 2010. It will take another six months to finalise the trial report and submit that to Indias MoD. The MoD will then announce the winner of the contract.



This is like Axing your own foot for Dassault.


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## duhastmish

*Defence acquisitions to be made more transparent*
Agencies, Tuesday October 27, 2009, New Delhi

The government will roll out a new defence procurement policy (DPP) Nov 1 in a bid to promote the Indian defence industry and bring transparency in acquisitions, Defence Minister A K Antony said Tuesday.

The reviewed DPP would also aim to promote joint ventures between foreign original equipment manufacturers (OEMs) and Indian companies.

"We are ready to promulgate DPP-2009 with effect from Nov 1," Antony said at a seminar on defence acquisition.

Under the DPP 2009:

* Broad contours of the 15-year armed forces acquisition plan will be made public
* Requests for Information (RFIs) on all acquisitions will be displayed on the Defence Ministry's website
* The role of independent monitors will be increaded to ensure probity in defence deals

Defence acquisitions to be made more transparent


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## Screaming Skull

> *Asked about field evaluation trials of the medium multi-role combat aircraft, Naik (ACM-IAF) said: 'We have finished the trials of F-16, F/A-18, Rafale and the MiG-35. All (aircraft) are going neck and neck'.*



India should be front-runner in space technology: Air chief - Yahoo! India News


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## sudhir007

Old new I dnt know anyone post this or not ?

Eurofighter Typhoon -

NETMA (NATO Eurofighter and Tornado Management Agency), Eurofighter Jagdflugzeug GmbH and EUROJET Turbo GmbH signed today the production contract for a further 112 aircraft, including 241 engines, for the four partner Nations: Germany, Italy, Spain and the United Kingdom.

The Tranche 3 &#8364; 9 billion contract confirms Eurofighter Typhoon as the best selling defence aircraft on the market with 559 units under production contract, including 15 for Austria and 72 for Saudi Arabia.

Eurofighter Jagdflugzeug GmbH CEO Enzo Casolini commented: &#8220;This is a major achievement in the Eurofighter programme and serves to reaffirm the importance and the independence of the defence sector of the European industry. The agreement, achieved in conjunction with NETMA and the four Nations involved in the programme, will provide the Air Forces with the best asset available to address their requirements for both air-to-air and air-to-ground roles&#8221;.

EUROJET Managing Director Hartmut J. Tenter commented: &#8220;This is an outstanding success for the EUROJET programme and a clear signal to the international community endorsing the quality of the product. The EJ200 stands for leading-edge technology, including advanced integrated Health Monitoring to deliver class-leading reliability, maintainability and Through Life Cost&#8212;the benchmark of excellence&#8221;.

NETMA&#8217;s General Manager, Lt.Gen. Antonino Altorio remarked that &#8220;the capabilities of Tranche 3 aircraft consolidate the already excellent performances of Tranche 1 and 2 aircraft and will enable the Air Forces to carry out primary air defence in NATO missions as well as maintaining air superiority in theatres of operations and, if necessary, providing support in the air-to-ground role. This contract sets the baseline for consequent contracts for logistic support which is fundamental to keeping fleets available while reducing, significantly, the cost of in-service support&#8221;. 

Today the Eurofighter programme not only represents the largest European industrial programme, supporting 100,000 jobs in 400 companies across Europe, but it is also the most advanced example of technology within the European industry base. It sets the standard in terms of best value for a new generation defence aircraft programme.

With the production of Eurofighter Typhoon, now being confirmed until well into the next decade, the future of the programme is assured and will maintain and develop the current technological capability in Europe, enhancing future export opportunities and giving the four partner Nations a significant return on their investments. Having already secured two export contracts with Austria in 2003 and the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia in 2007, Eurofighter Typhoon will continue to follow up all export opportunities. 

Eurofighter and Eurojet Turbo consortia and their partner Companies are actively pursuing campaigns in Switzerland, India, Japan, Romania, Greece, Turkey and exploring possible opportunities in South Korea, Bulgaria, Croatia and other Nations.


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## gogbot

Screaming Skull said:


> India should be front-runner in space technology: Air chief - Yahoo! India News



Performance wise All Aircraft are top notch.

what is to consider is the Garnish in this deal

1.Geo-political strategy

2. Any additional advantages offered in the Deal

The decision is squarely between the 
F/A-18 SH
and 
Euro Fighter.


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## IBRIS

*Danish gov : No Gripen*

Danish government as well as the oposition says Denmark will not chose the SAAB Gripen as their new fighter. The choice will be between Lockheed Martin and Boeing

No one even talks about the Swedish alternative sources say"
Taper også i Danmark - - Verden - Aftenposten.no

*Sweden loses yet another fighter plane contract worth tens of billions of kroner. Also Denmark says no to-owned SAAB JAS 39 Gripen, according to key sources. 
*
All indications are that the already highly compressed Swedish aircraft manufacturer already has crash-landed in the fight against two U.S. competitors to create new fighters for the Danish Air Force. Very central sources in both the government parties and the opposition says to Aftenposten that it's definitely not the JAS 39 Gripen. The decision is scheduled to be around New Year. Thus remains the favorite JSF from Lockheed Martin, who beat the Swedes in Norway for almost a year ago, and another flygigant in the United States: Boeing.

Including Norway. 
It is important for the Danes that Norway last year chose JSF and had a negative assessment of the JAS 39 Gripen. The Swedes were not only outraged that Norway chose the other finalists. Industry Giant Saab and Swedish government was - and is - as stated above argument against the JAS Gripen. According to Stoltenberg government satisfied not Swedes requirements for new aircraft. Moreover, says the Norwegians that the Gripen is more expensive than the JSF. The math for how much, respectively, the Swedish and American aircraft would cost in the end, is very controversial. At the central government in the Danish decision-making process is still on the Norwegian price analysis:

"It is clear that the economic situation we are in, the price is a very important argument," said a very convenient source with regard to Norway's assessment and relate it to why the Danes turned thumbs down on the JAS Gripen.

-No talking about the Swedish option, "said the second well-placed political sources. 

Vicious circle
. It could have been a breakthrough for the Swedes, have become a vicious circle. If NATO veteran Norway had chosen Jas Gripen, it would have been a reference value at least one fighter in gold for non-NATO country Sweden. It would also become an additional public relations effort to beat a strong competitor from the largest NATO country. 

Instead of a domino effect which could have given a giant deal with such Danes, gave last year's Norwegian rejection rather than a loser stamp as well. This makes matters worse for the yellow and blue. If there's a miracle in the Danish final sprint, the Swedes are not only missing out on tens of billion again. All of the further development of the Swedish Air Force met with concern and questions. The pressure is enormous. Nerves affected the whole of the Swedish town of Link&#246;ping, where aircraft manufacturers are located, even before Norway was to decide last year. 

But when they finally know from the Danes, there is reason to believe that the Swedish reaction is reinforced resignation rather than a repetition of the shock when the Norwegian judges voted the JAS 39 Gripen. The same can happen in The Netherlands. Ryker also have the Swedes really only three fingers back to bite nails with: India, Brazil and Switzerland are countries that can save Sweden's future fighter aircraft manufacturer.

More expensive alone. 
The Swedes planned to develop its final version, together with such Norway and Denmark. "If Norway chooses Gripen, Sweden will accelerate further development so that the Swedish Air Force have a number of aircraft already before Norway get their deliveries," said SAAB vice president with responsibility for flyvirksomheten, Lennart Sindahl Aftenposten last November.

He admitted that it would be "clearly cheaper" if more countries sharing the costs of further development. That Denmark also turns his back to the JAS Gripen can make it difficult for the Swedes to be cutie brother in the Nordic defense cooperation, as in other areas have become closer in recent years. 

*SAAB is caught in a vicious circle. The company is already under a lot of pressure, and if India, Brazil and Switzerland also turns them down their days as a fighterplane manufacturer is numbered. *


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## gogbot

SAAB was out from the start

They had no chance.

There was nothing to be gained by Inducting the Gripen

The Only reason IAF was even interested was because PAF also considered the plane. And IAF most likely wanted to know what they were dealing with.

As has been speculated
*The race is down to the European consortium , and Boeing.
Now i would of gone with the Euro Fighter a week ago But Boeing has come out with a whole list of side offers on otherwise unrelated deals. *



> *HAL to produce crucial parts of Boeing-777s*



fullstory

Boeing submits proposals to IAF for Apache, Chinook choppers

*Now all this just begs me to wonder, are these part of a massive overall strategy by Boeing to Gain a massive foothold in the Indian defense Market.

We all know what Euro fighter is offering, Partnership and the EJ2000 engine for the LCA. Nothing much has changed on that Deal*



But

Boeing has kicked it up a notch. They offer :









> Boeing has proposed joint manufacture of the jets with Indian partners. It also plans to offset the cost by setting up a US$100 million maintenance and training hub in Nagpur. On 14 February 2008, Boeing and Tata Industries agreed to form a joint-venture company. The new entity, which will be formed in June 2008, will supply components for Boeing military aircraft, including the Super Hornet.
> 
> In order to satisfy its offset requirements, Boeing has signed long-term partnership agreements with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), Tata Industries, and Larsen and Toubro, who will play a significant role in production and assembly of the aircraft.



well that meets the TOT guideline for both India and the US

*The GE-F414 engine for the LCA. 

THE Apache Longbow helicopter

The Chinook Helicopter

And as it appears Boeing may use its massive Civilian aviation Industry to offer further incentive's to swing the Deal in its favor
*

But i still think we should go for the Euro fighter and EJ-200 engine with TV for the LCA.

*
However with still more than a Years worth of trials still sceduled



And



are interested in bringing a lot more to the Plate, In order to put this deal in the Bag*


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## SQ8

Superbug all the way, It suits the MRCA template more than anything else. And currently offers the best A2A/A2G load carrying capabilities, along with the added benefit of having an engine compatible with the LCA. plus Im dying to see it in IAF colors..even if I am on the opposing side.


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## holysaturn

santro said:


> Superbug all the way, It suits the MRCA template more than anything else. And currently offers the best A2A/A2G load carrying capabilities, along with the added benefit of having an engine compatible with the LCA. plus Im dying to see it in IAF colors..even if I am on the opposing side.



thats right.the SH has battle tested capabilities which other manufacturers tend to achieve by 2012 or so.......thus basically it is the lowest risk option.(now even usaf is considering it as stop gap before jsf arrives).


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## hembo

*Boeing ready for production of fighter jets in India *
Wed, Oct 28 07:42 PM

New Delhi, Oct 28 (IANS) After successfully completing trials for the contract of 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft with India, US firm Boeing Wednesday announced its intention to transfer technology to build F/A-18IN Super Hornet fighter jets in India.

'We fully intend for Super Hornet to be built in India,' said Boeing Military Aircraft Integrated Defence Systems president Christopher M. Chadwick here.

While Russia has been giving technology transfer to India more readily, US firms have a strict code when it comes to technology transfer to their customers.

'We plan to build 18 aircraft in the US and from the 19th aircraft it will be built in India.... we will continue transfer of technology to India so that they not only assemble but make lots of part of the aircraft in India.... actually building the aircraft here,' Chadwick added.

With the approval of US Congress required, the transfer of technology could actually be a key element in deciding the winner of the competition for the whopping Indian contract.

Boeing's F/A-18IN has completed first two phases of trials for the Indian Air Force.

The first phase was completed in the US and the second at Bangalore, Jaisalmer and Leh.

The third phase trials will be held in February 2010 in the US.

The other aircraft in the fray for the IAF's $10 billion order are the Lockheed Martin F-16I Super Viper, the Dassault Rafale, the Saab Gripen, the Russian MiG-35, and the European consortium EADS Eurofighter Typhoon.

The IAF plans to acquire 18 aircraft in fly-away conditions, with the rest being manufactured by HAL under a technology transfer deal. The aircraft are meant to replace the IAF's ageing fleet of MiG-21 that were inducted in the 1960s.


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## marcos98

LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence: [Vishnu Som] Update On Boeing Super Hornet Pitch
Boeing and its F/A-18 industry partners Raytheon, GE and Northrop-Grumman held a press conference in Delhi on Wednesday. Friend and NDTV associate editor VISHNU SOM was there and has been kind enough to send LiveFist this update on what happened:

As far as the transfer of source codes for AESA is concerned, Boeing is still at the "can't discuss in an open forum, lets see how this plays out" mode. At the same time, the fact that India has agreed to the US end user agreement during Hillary Clinton's visit here means that the full-up Super Hornet IN, inclusive of the upgraded GE F414 engine, the APG-79 AESA and other key systems are cleared for transfer. So it's quite possible that the version of the AESA offered will be full-spec. In fact, I am sure, India would not accept anything less than that.

Secondly, February 2010 is the big date for the IAF and the next phase of the Hornet There will be an evaluation of the following: 1. Mission systems flight evaluation 2. AESA 3. FLIR 4. EW 5. Weapon delivery 6. Maintenance evaluation 7. Technical evaluation.

All this will be done at the Naval Air Station Lemoore in California, the same base from where I flew the second of my Super Hornet sorties. Boeing reps repeatedly state that the AESA will be evaluated in conjunction with other systems, ie, the data link, FLIR etc to showcase the full package.

As far as AESA is concerned, the Boeing-Raytheon team seemed to take on their European rivals who are still developing/integrating their product. They explained how it took eight years for the APG-79 to move from low rate initial production to first operational deployment. The dates are as follows: June 2003 Low rate initial production / December 2006 Operational evaluation completed / December 2007 Initial Operational clearance & Full scale production approval and May 2008 First operational deployment.

The APG-79 has 1,000-hours mean time between failures (MTBF), more than 75,000 operational flight hours, it's been approved for sale to India and will be sustained in US service beyond 2035. The proposed GE F414 EPE (Enhanced Performance Engine) for India offers a 20 per cent increase in thrust and a 1 per cent reduction in fuel burn. The F414 is itself in the 22,000-lb thrust class, 170 lb/second airflow. Engine change is done in under 30 minutes, interchangeable left and right engine installation. No need for a functional check flight after engine change. No throttle restrictions while in operation (I have personally witnessed this, it's amazing -- you can pretty much do what you want with the throttle, slam it to burner and take it back as much as you want ... nothing happens).

Boeing says it WILL offer the Indian Air Force an out and out 9G fighter -- this has been a promise made by the Boeing team. I was led to believe this involves changes in the flight control system, though the airframe itself is OK for 9G.

The pitch -- this is a rugged, proven, operational platform, which is now available to India at a cost NOT too much over its single engine competitors in the MMRCA race. As far as their performance in the trials in Bangalore are concerned, they say that they are satisfied with what they were able to demonstrate to the Indian Air Force but reiterate that its the IAF which has to be satisfied. Thats it for the moment folks.

---------- Post added at 09:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:22 PM ----------

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## sancho

gogbot said:


> well that meets the TOT guideline for both India and the US
> 
> The GE-F414 engine for the LCA.
> 
> THE Apache Longbow helicopter
> 
> The Chinook Helicopter
> 
> And as it appears Boeing may use its massive Civilian aviation Industry to offer further incentive's to swing the Deal in its favor


I don't think that this will be a major point for Boeing, because producing parts in India doesn't mean we get any useful ToT. Also EADS/Airbus is offering pretty much the same amount of deals to India, if not more!

*Parts of Airbus planes are already produced in India and in the last months there were reports of outsorcing up to 20% of the production to India.

They are offering EF, with producing avionic parts for all EFs in India

The best engine for LCA and assistance to fix problems

Tiger seems to be out, but Fennec LUH ist still a frontrunner

A330 MRTT which is shortlisted in the tanker competition

NH90, or 725 Super Cougar to replace Sea Kings of IN as ASW helicopters

C 235/295 MPA for IN and the CG

If I'm not wrong also an air defense suit for Dhruv*


And the best is, except the EF and it's engine for LCA, everything should be on offer with Rafale too, because Germany *and France are the major sharholders of EADS.*

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## Gideon

holysaturn said:


> thus basically it is the lowest risk option.(now even usaf is considering it as stop gap before jsf arrives).



The USAF never had the SH. It was always the USN.


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## Gideon

sancho said:


> I don't think that this will be a major point for Boeing, because producing parts in India doesn't mean we get any useful ToT. Also EADS/Airbus is offering pretty much the same amount of deals to India, if not more!



Even if you forget about all the rest of the bells and whistles. You still get an amazing deal with Boeing. By transferring production to India, you would have no problems with spares and stuff. 

Also, you are forgetting that with aquisition of the SH the Indian Air Force gets access to a whole gamut of new weapons and systems like JDAMs, bunker bursters, ERAMs, etc etc. Just an order of hundreds of JDAM's should be able to convert all those free fall Russian bombs into Laser designated weapons! 

Plus, if you consider the F-18 G electronic warfare variant as a future purchase as well, you could defeat many air defense radars and boost your capabilities immensely without having another additional airframe to bother about! 

Finally, with the entry of Boeing into the Indian military's supplier list, down the road when the JSF becomes much more cheaper and more readily available India could possibly consider its advanced Block-2 or 3 acquisition when you retire the Mirages, the Migs without the need to establish another whole new support base.


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## Insane

I feel need to have a US Airplane in our fleet in good numbers and F/A-18 is a pretty good one, plus this is a good move in development of relationships with US. 

What is evident that all 6 are good planes but Lockheed Martin and SAAB seem out of it already. Their campaign ain't going anywhere. MiG has very less chances. That's 3 down.

Most people seem to be debating between Eurofighter, Rafale and F/A-18 but I think GOI should go for F/A-18 and from the development of competition it looks like there is a good chance that Boeing might just win it. 

BTW we are wasting too much time with the trials. And after this time is gone it looks like Boeing is the best choice to deliver the plane in time. ( Which i think is critical). We need to have this running by 2015.


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## gogbot

Insane said:


> I feel need to have a US Airplane in our fleet in good numbers and F/A-18 is a pretty good one, plus this is a good move in development of relationships with US.
> 
> What is evident that all 6 are good planes but Lockheed Martin and SAAB seem out of it already. Their campaign ain't going anywhere. MiG has very less chances. That's 3 down.
> 
> Most people seem to be debating between Eurofighter, Rafale and F/A-18 but I think GOI should go for F/A-18 and from the development of competition it looks like there is a good chance that Boeing might just win it.
> 
> BTW we are wasting too much time with the trials. And after this time is gone it looks like Boeing is the best choice to deliver the plane in time. ( Which i think is critical). We need to have this running by 2015.



I agree Mig ,SAAB and F-16 are out.



> Most people seem to be debating between Eurofighter, Rafale and F/A-18 but I think GOI should go for F/A-18 and from the development of competition it looks like there is a good chance that Boeing might just win it.



Well Dassault refused to Upgrade the Mirage at the wanted price.

Plus there is no commonality option with the LCA.

Plus no JV offer or partnership was proposed

Three strikes and that's out
So can count out the Rafael, as well

Like i said in my previous posts.

Euro-fighter And Boeing are the Only one in the game

as well both planes can use the same engine as the LCA. So more Comanality

Plus both Companies are offering a lot more than just the Planes and ToT

So the only real competition now is Boeing and Euro-Fighter.

And currently Boeing is winning. with the Latest news


----------



## Insane

gogbot said:


> I agree Mig ,SAAB and F-16 are out.
> 
> well Dassault refused to Upgrade the Mirage at the wanted price.
> 
> Plus there is no commonality option with the LCA.
> 
> Plus no JV offer or partnership was proposed
> 
> Three strikes and that's out
> So can count out the Rafael, as well
> 
> Like i said in my previous posts.
> 
> Euro-fighter And Boeing are the Only one in the game
> 
> as well both planes can use the same engine as the LCA. So more Comanality
> 
> Plus both Companies are offering a lot more than just the Planes and ToT
> 
> So the only real competition now is Boeing and Euro-Fighter.
> 
> And currently Boeing is winning. with the Latest news



I know but who knows Rafale might spring some surprises. Its not over for the french yet but they didn't do themselves any favor with the hefty prices for Mirage. Actually had they quoted reasonable prices, there was a very bright chance that they could get it. in fact they were pretty much neck and neck contenders to F/A-18. 

My gut feeling is the Boeing is taking it. And if you ask me its just practical to buy that plane. It can cause a lot of damage by its firepower plus bringing US closer does help in other things. Typhoon delivery may be prone to delays which i absolutely loathe. 

What F/A-18 does in one way is once we build infrastructure for US Tech we could be well in a position for future purchases. Boeing with its wide range of products could supply lot more than just F/A-18. No matter how you look at it - Technically, Politically, Need of the hour or future scope it should be Boeing all the way.


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## rajeev

Insane said:


> I know but who knows Rafale might spring some surprises. Its not over for the french yet but they didn't do themselves any favor with the hefty prices for Mirage. Actually had they quoted reasonable prices, there was a very bright chance that they could get it. in fact they were pretty much neck and neck contenders to F/A-18.
> 
> My gut feeling is the Boeing is taking it. And if you ask me its just practical to buy that plane. It can cause a lot of damage by its firepower plus bringing US closer does help in other things. Typhoon delivery may be prone to delays which i absolutely loathe.
> 
> What F/A-18 does in one way is once we build infrastructure for US Tech we could be well in a position for future purchases. Boeing with its wide range of products could supply lot more than just F/A-18. No matter how you look at it - Technically, Politically, Need of the hour or future scope it should be Boeing all the way.



From what I have learnt is that Typhoon is best plane in our offer. It will also give us another avenue to get the 5th gen plane in case PAKFA does not work out!

But it appears more and more that F/A-18E/F SuperHornet will be most likely selected. I think we might select that plane to be in good graces with US. Here is something from Jane that was published.


> Boeing India reiterated a commitment on 29 October to transfer leading-edge technology to India's state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) in order to facilitate the in-country development.



Rafale will be best if we plan on indigenous development of 4.5 gen plane. I dont how much we can expect in terms of future development of 5th gen. Also their outrageous quote for 40 million $ upgrade package would mean we will be stuck with these kinds of prices for future upgrades of Rafale.


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## holysaturn

Gideon said:


> The USAF never had the SH. It was always the USN.



usaf is considering SH
"The House version of the fiscal 2010 defense authorization bill includes language that advises the USAF to consider adopting Super Hornets in order to avoid a gap in the nation's air defenses while the JSF ramps up"
F/A-18E/F Super Hornet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

To solve Air Force&#8217;s &#8216;fighter gap,&#8217; buy Navy Super Hornets - Air Force Community - Air Force Times


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## Insane

rajeev said:


> From what I have learnt is that Typhoon is best plane in our offer. It will also give us another avenue to get the 5th gen plane in case PAKFA does not work out!
> 
> But it appears more and more that F/A-18E/F SuperHornet will be most likely selected. I think we might select that plane to be in good graces with US. Here is something from Jane that was published.
> 
> 
> Rafale will be best if we plan on indigenous development of 4.5 gen plane. I dont how much we can expect in terms of future development of 5th gen. Also their outrageous quote for 40 million $ upgrade package would mean we will be stuck with these kinds of prices for future upgrades of Rafale.



That is right. I do not really want the Rafale at this point of time. And I am sure if french win the order we will be in for a long ride. First with delayed delivery and then expensive upgrade.

Typhoon might be the best available plane of the lot but its not a matured product yet and that beats the whole purpose of MRCA to induct planes quickly to fill up urgent requirements.

No need to go Banana over 5th generation plane right now. we can not leave everything to the future. F/A-18 could very well serve India for 20 years as a top class fighter and that is what we want. 

If needed we could buy 5th generation plane after 5-10 years time. Typhoon may have matured by that time and who knows F-35 may be up for grab. There is always a chance of working in a more structured way on MCA which is likely to be a 5th generation plane. I think by 2015 the Indian domestic industry will be lot more matured and in better shape to handle future projects. 

I am not even concerned about FGFA right now. I am sure it will work. It is not gonna be ready before 2020 though. If it does not work we would know by 2015-2017, and that will be the right time to go for MCA, And think about another purchase.


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## Gideon

holysaturn said:


> usaf is considering SH
> "The House version of the fiscal 2010 defense authorization bill includes language that advises the USAF to consider adopting Super Hornets in order to avoid a gap in the nation's air defenses while the JSF ramps up"
> F/A-18E/F Super Hornet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


First the wikipedia article misquotes the source it takes the quote from: Air Force urged to consider Navy F-18s (8/6/09) -- GovExec.com
The need is felt in the Air National Guard who's planes are owned by the USAF. The article also states that the USAF is unlikely to buy the F-18 as its funding is focused on the F-35. 
"But the defense official expects the Air Force to reject any efforts to buy Super Hornets -- or any other older fighters. "The Air Force won't do it willingly, more than likely, because it doesn't meet their strategy," he said." 


holysaturn said:


> To solve Air Forces fighter gap, buy Navy Super Hornets - Air Force Community - Air Force Times



This is an opinion piece, not a news article.


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## duhastmish

*Boeing assurance on ToT for production of F-18IN in India news 
29 October 2009*

New Delhi: After successfully completing the second phase of trials for Indian Air Force's 126 medium range multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) tender , US firm Boeing Co said it was ready to transfer technology which would allow construction of its F/A-18IN Super Hornet fighter jets in India.





We fully intend for Super Hornet to be built in India,' said Boeing Military Aircraft Integrated Defence Systems president Christopher M Chadwick here.

While the Indians generally maintain a free-flowing relationship with the Russians as far as transfer of technology is concerned, US firms are more tight-fisted and, given the lack of political goodwill amongst both nations, also more unreliable.

'We plan to build 18 aircraft in the US and from the 19th aircraft it will be built in India. we will continue transfer of technology to India so that they not only assemble but make lots of part of the aircraft in India. actually building the aircraft here,' Chadwick added.

Boeing and the Indians are aware that for transfer of American technology, prior approval of the US Congress required. It is fairly certain that award of the MMRCA contract to a US firm, either Boeing or Lockheed Martin, would eventually hinge around the level of technology transfers that the Americans are willing to allow with their aircraft.

Lockheed Martin, the world's biggest defence contractor, is in the running with the Block 60 version of the F-16, dubbed the F-16IN Super Viper. This is the most advanced version of the aircraft currently available and serves with the UAE air force.

Meanwhile, Boeing's offering for the Indian Air Force, the F/A-18IN, has completed the first two phases of trials. While *the first phase was completed in the United States, the second phase was conducted at various locations around India - Bangalore, Jaisalmer and Leh.
*
*The third phase of trials, which will be the weapons phase, will be held in February 2010 in the US.*

The other aircraft competing for the $11 billion MMRCA tender are the Lockheed Martin F-16IN Super Viper, Dassault's Rafale, Saab's Gripen, Russia's MiG-35 and the European consortium EADS' Eurofighter Typhoon.

As per terms of the tender, the IAF will acquire 18 aircraft in fly-away condition, with the rest being manufactured by HAL under a technology transfer deal.* There is a possibility of the size of the order being enhanced. The aircraft are meant to replace primarily the IAF's ageing fleet of MiG-21 Fishbed fighters. *

domain-b.com : Boeing assurance on ToT for production of F-18IN in India


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## sudhir007

Eurofighter Typhoon - Built-in Growth Potential

The EJ200 has been designed with inherent growth potential up to 15&#37;. Enhancements in the compression system and latest innovations in core engine technology could deliver up to 30% increased power. This performance improvement may also be traded for life cycle cost improvements, maintaining current thrust levels. This flexibility is enabled by the advanced digital electronic control system (DECMU), fully exploiting the advantages of the enhanced engine in line with operational requirements.

The EJ200 engine powering the Eurofighter Typhoon features from Tranche II a further step in engine control and monitoring technology, integrating all elements necessary for Digital Electronic engine Control and Monitoring into a single unit (known as DECMU) as well as incorporating potential for future enhancements. The EJ200 DECMU combines the functionality of the engine mounted Digital Electronic Control Unit (DECU) and the aircraft mounted Engine Monitoring Unit (EMU).


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## sancho

Hi Gideon, at the beginning I though so too, but now there are not many advantages left for the Super Hornet.



Gideon said:


> Even if you forget about all the rest of the bells and whistles. You still get an amazing deal with Boeing. By transferring production to India, *you would have no problems with spares and stuff. *


Many people still have in mind that it was US that posed sanctions on India and the reliable countries that provided us with spares were Russia and France, so that is not really a big point for F18


Gideon said:


> Also, you are forgetting that with aquisition of the SH the Indian Air Force gets access to a whole gamut of new weapons and systems like JDAMs, bunker bursters, ERAMs, etc etc. Just an order of hundreds of JDAM's should be able to convert all those free fall Russian bombs into Laser designated weapons


No I have it in mind and without a doubt it is the biggest advantage for US fighters, but US weapons are on offer with European fighters too and the French AASM is a comparable bomb-kit like the JDAM, so there are other options too!


Gideon said:


> Plus, if you consider the F-18 G electronic warfare variant as a future purchase as well, you could defeat many air defense radars and boost your capabilities immensely without having another additional airframe to bother about!


That's right, if it is on offer with full capabilities, but even Australia gets a Growler lite version with the ECM pods on the wingtips and some jamming capability, but that is nothing special. The EF also has ECM pods on the wingtips, Rafale has an integrated system and like you can see here ( http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/37431-su-30-mki-growler.html ), even for our Flankers there are ECM pods for wingstations and a jamming pod available now. 
Again there are other options for IAF too!


Gideon said:


> Finally, with the entry of Boeing into the Indian military's supplier list, down the road when the JSF becomes much more cheaper and more readily available India could possibly consider its advanced Block-2 or 3 acquisition when you retire the Mirages, the Migs without the need to establish another whole new support base.


All latest reports hints that JSF is delayed and will come nearly at the same time when FGFA will arrive in India (for India it will be available late anyway), that's why I don't expect JSF in IAF. Only for IN it could be a good point, because the F35B could start from our carriers too. Anyway that don't mean we have to take F18 for IAF, because only the weapons are the same, the rest is different. With Mig 35, or Rafale instead we could have the same aircraft for IAF and IN and same weapons.

To sum it up, if IAF don't need a Growler, gets AASM, less maintenance costs, full ToT & source cods, a co-developed Kaveri/Snecma engine and also an ready developed fighter with the Rafale, only the US weapon package and possibly the same engine for LCA are left as advantages for F18.
18SH would be a political decision and not the best fighter for IAF, or the most advantages for our industry and imo the best package with most benefits for all (Gov, IAF and Industry) must win.


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## sancho

gogbot said:


> Well Dassault refused to Upgrade the Mirage at the wanted price.
> *
> Plus there is no commonality option with the LCA.
> 
> Plus no JV offer or partnership was proposed*
> 
> Three strikes and that's out
> So can count out the Rafael, as well



Not correct, a co-development for a Kaveri/Snecma engine that could be used on Rafale and for LCA was offered. IAF wanted a ready engine for LCA now, but that doesn't mean they would deny the offer for Rafale too. Getting Kaveri fixed, with 90kN or more and for at least 126 fighters in the fleet is way more worth than producing avionic parts for EF! These engines could be used for later, or export LCAs and would reduce the cost of Rafale too.
Also it is very likely that LCA MK2 could get the same IRST and AESA radar of MMRCA winner and these techs are ready in Rafale now, EF and Gripen NG gets their radar only in 2013, or later.
One more point, we are already co-developing/producing the topsight HMS with France, so even more commonality for LCA and Rafale.


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## marcos98

TRISHUL: Where Is The MiG-35?
*Where Is The MiG-35?*
No one from Russia, it seems, can give a convincing answer to this very simple question. Earlier last February during the Aero India 2009 exhibition, Mikhail Pogosyan, who presently wears two hats&#8212;Director-General of RAC-MiG and Director-General of Sukhoi Corp&#8212;had made two interesting revelations: one, that the MiG-35&#8217;s single-seat and tandem-seat variants will be rolled from the Nizhny Novgorod-based Sokol Aircraft Plant by August this year; and two, there would be maximum mission systems commonality, inclusive of the AESA radar, between the MiG-35 and the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) that will be co-developed by India&#8217;s Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) and Russia&#8217;s United Aircraft Corp (UAC). Both these revelations have since been contradicted with the passage of time. The Indian Air Force (IAF) had expected the roll-out of the single-seat and tandem-seat versions of the MiG-35 latest by mid-October and be made available for a week-long phase of flight evaluations within India later this year, followed by a second round of evaluations (involving test-firings of precision-guided munitions) in Russia within the first quarter of next year. And as for systems commonality, especially pertaining to the AESA radar, it became evident last August that it will be the Zhuk-AE from Phazotron JSC that will go on board the MiG-35, while the FGFA will be equipped with a variant of the MIRES Sh-121 AESA-based multi-mode radar, which is now being developed by Tikhomirov NIIP. The Zhuk-AE AESA which has repeatedly been shown on board the MiG-29M2 No154 M-MRCA (built in 1990) since 2007 is now officially described as being a functional technology demonstrator containing 600 transmit/receive modules, while the definitive series-production variant of the Zhuk-AE will have 1,000 T/R modules. And the MiG-29M2 No154, which has deceptively being painted as the MiG-35 and been used in the past for giving joyrides to some India-based broadcast media journalists and a few IAF pilots, is now being described by RAC-MiG as just a &#8216;proof-of-concept&#8217; demonstrator!

It has now emerged that RAC-MiG had built two prototypes of the shipborne MiG-29 as part of the contract to supply 12 MiG-29Ks and four MiG-29KUBs to the Indian Navy. These two prototypes&#8212;a tandem-seat MiG-29KUB No947 and a single-seat MiG-29K No941&#8212;made their maiden flights in January and June 2007, respectively. (By the way, these two prototypes were the first brand-new MiG-29s to be built by RAC-MiG after a gap of 15 years!) Following the conclusion of the flight certification and weapons qualification phases, the single-seat MiG-29K No941 was and is still being subjected to a modification programme aimed at deriving the definitive single-seat MiG-35. This perhaps explains why RAC-MiG has publicly displayed (during MAKS 2007 and MAKS 2009) the MiG-29KUB No947, but has never even revealed the existence of the Indian Navy-specific MiG-29K No941 to date. It is now believed that the Russian Air Force, as part of a Kremlin-initiated bailout package for debt-ridden RAC-MiG, will place an order for 24 MiG-35s by 2012, while the Russian Navy will procure 24 MiG-29K/KUBs in 2012 to replace the existing Su-33 shipborne combat aircraft.

According to RAC-MiG, the definitive MiG-35 will have larger wings to accommodate 10 underwing weapon stations, plus a belly-mounted station to house the Novator-built 3M-14AE Kalibr-A subsonic 290km-range air-to-ground land attack cruise missile. To make the MiG-35 a truly network-centric platform RAC-MiG has already initiated industrial participation negotiations with Israel&#8217;s SIBAT, plus avionics OEMs from Italy (Finmeccanica/Elettronica) and France (SAGEM for the Sigma-95 RLG-INS, which is also on board the Su-30MKI)


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## dbc

sancho said:


> To sum it up, if IAF don't need a Growler, gets AASM, *less maintenance costs*, full ToT & source cods, a co-developed Kaveri/Snecma engine and also an ready developed fighter with the Rafale, only the US weapon package and possibly the same engine for LCA are left as advantages for F18.
> 18SH would be a *political decision* and not the best fighter for IAF, or the most advantages for our industry and imo the best package with most benefits for all (Gov, IAF and Industry) must win.




IMHO, silly to pass on the SH did you miss the part where the engine on the super bug can be replaced in less than 30 minutes? The SH was designed for maximum availability no other platform comes close. I'll say this once none of the other MRCA contenders come close to matching the SH's versatility, reliability and availability. Sure it is not the most maneuverable aircraft but you already have the MKI for dazzling your enemies with air ballet . If you want an aircraft that looks pretty on the tarmac or in the hangar by all means go for the Migs, Eurofighter OR Rafael. Political decision my a$s, I am pretty sure the IAF is drooling at the prospect of getting their hands on the SH.


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## sancho

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> IMHO, silly to pass on the SH did you miss the part where the engine on the super bug can be replaced in less than 30 minutes? The SH was designed for maximum availability no other platform comes close. I'll say this once none of the other MRCA contenders come close to matching the SH's versatility, reliability and availability. Sure it is not the most maneuverable aircraft but you already have the MKI for dazzling your enemies with air ballet . If you want an aircraft that looks pretty on the tarmac or in the hangar by all means go for the Migs, Eurofighter OR Rafael. Political decision my a$s, I am pretty sure the IAF is drooling at the prospect of getting their hands on the SH.


But it's still the biggest and heaviest fighter in the competition and compared to lighter, or even to those single engine fighters the maintenance costs are higher. Not to mention the logistic costs for complete new types of weapons and spares. The Rafale instead gives the advantage to use any weapon that are already in IAF and in use of over 100 Jaguars and 50 Mirage 2000.
Not only the Russians, any fighter in the competition is more maneuverable than the F18 and most of them offer the same a2a weapons.
As I said, there is not much left that the F18 can offer IAF what the Flankers doesn't have, or the Eurocarnards couldn't do better. Imo only the good weapon pack (if all weapons are available for India) and a2g capabilities. Doubtful that the IAF will be so keen on it, with those other possibilities.


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## RPK

*Saab working out big plans for India*

Saab working out big plans for India IDRW.ORG

Saab is a global provider of defence and civil security solutions, services and products. In the defence market, the company focuses on air, naval, land and joint operations while in the civil market, it specialises in civil security and commercial aeronautics.

The Swedish company has major operations in several countries in Europe, as well as in , Australia and the US with 13,300 employees and annual sales of SEK 23 billion in 2008.
In India, Saab is one of the six companies vying for supplying 126 multi-billion-dollar medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) to the Indian Air Force. It has offered the next-generation Gripen, which includes increased combat range and endurance, a more powerful engine and super capability, additional weapons carriage capability and increased payload, for the much-awaited contract.

Jan Widerstrom, vice-president, Saab International India AB, says, &#8220;The MMRCA is the biggest project for us in that is not just about selling fighter jets-we&#8217;re also going to build up the know-how in India to build the next generation of defence technology&#8230; It&#8217;s a different game plan; the deal has the potential to change the Indo-Swedish business model altogether. But even if the deal does not work out, we are here to stay in India. We&#8217;re looking at a long and sustainable relationship with India, and have set up an office in Delhi with this in mind. We also have employees working in Bangalore. Apart from MMRCA, maritime patrol could be a big business opportunity for us in a growing market like India. On the civilian side, we&#8217;re looking at providing civil security during the Commonwealth Games. We&#8217;re providing support to NAL and HAL for civilian programmes and also outsourcing production of parts it India.&#8221;

Saab International senior vice-president Thorbjorn Gustafsson says, &#8220;It&#8217;s a tough game. We&#8217;ve moved a bit late. But still it&#8217;s a good timing. India, after recession, has taken the lead and is considered as the superpower for the future. India is special with its huge setup of local industry. And with its English-speaking, highly-educated population, India today is the most important market from us apart from Australia.&#8221;

Asked about their interaction with Indian industry, Mr Gustafsson said, &#8220;We&#8217;re focusing on building relationships with Indian industry, which is very important to start with. The public sector companies in India are very strong on domain knowledge, but are restricted due to government intervention. The private firms, on the other hand, are very aggressive and are hungry for a share of the global pie.&#8221;

On the challenges in the Indian market, Mr Widerstrom says, &#8220;The business culture is very different. Things take time, but that happens in other countries too, especially in defence deals, where the stakes are very high&#8230;We&#8217;re also hoping for 49-51&#37; FDI in our sector. But with the liberalisation of business and economy, and a 6%-plus growth rate, India is the place to be.&#8221;


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## sudhir007

*Saab's Gripen Demo makes first flight with AESA radar*

PICTURE: Saab's Gripen Demo makes first flight with AESA radar

Saab's Gripen Demo aircraft has made its first test flight since receiving a key technology on offer to potential export customers including Brazil, India and Switzerland.

Now equipped with the antenna and other elements of Selex Sensors and Airborne Systems' Vixen 1000E/ES05 Raven active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, the two-seat demonstrator resumed its flight activities on 27 October, when it performed a sortie from Saab's Link&#246;ping site in Sweden.

The heavily modified B-model aircraft had been on the ground in refit for the last several months, during which time Saab integrated its AESA array, new satellite communications equipment and additional internal fuel capacity. It has also gained new electro-optical radar warning receivers and missile approach warning sensors developed by Saab Avitronics.
The Demo airframe has now completed more than 80 flights since May 2008, and is being used to de-risk technologies intended for use with Saab's future NG (new generation) production standard of the Gripen. 
The type has already been shortlisted in competitions in Brazil, India and Switzerland, and will equip the Swedish air force from 2014.
Selex says flight tests of its new AESA design, which uses a unique "swashplate" mounting to significantly boost the sensor's area of coverage, will also support the technology's possible future integration with the Eurofighter Typhoon.
The UK Ministry of Defence earlier this year confirmed a desire to equip its Tranche 3 Typhoons with AESA radars, and industry sources say a flight-test programme with the Selex design is expected to take place from 2012. EADS has previously flown an AESA array on a Eurofighter development aircraft in Germany.

unother link :-
http://www.gripen.com/en/MediaRelations/News/2009/gripen_ng_demo_returns_to_the_skies.htm

*Gripen NG Demonstrator started flight testing again on October 27 following a modification which includes the installation of an AESA radar*

The Gripen NG Demonstrator has been modified with a number of tactical systems: AESA radar, a new satellite communication system, an electro-optical missile warning system as well as activation of the increased internal fuel. 

"A lot of new features have been implemented since we flew for the first time last year, but it takes an expert to see any external changes to the aircraft. Most clearly visible are the sensors for the missile warning system and antenna for the satellite communication system," says Mattias Bergstr&#246;m, project manager for the Gripen NG Demonstrator.

*New tactical system*
AESA radar, Active Electronically Scanned Array, is among the enhanced Gripen's capabilities. In simple terms, it refers to a radar that is built up of many small antenna elements into a large antenna. Each individual element can be controlled, facilitating many functions. Previously, the Gripen radar was a mechanically controlled antenna that illuminates one area at a time. An AESA radar can quickly scan larger areas, monitor more targets simultaneously and allow the pilot to operate with more flexibility. 

"The new satellite communication system that we have introduced means you can communicate voice and text via satellite technology," explains Mattias Bergstr&#246;m.

*Electro-optical Missile Approach Warning System*
The sensors of the electro-optical Missile Approach Warning System (MAW) can be seen on the aircraft at the wing root and by the air brake. The system will protect among other things against Man Portable Air Defence Systems (MANPADS).

The flights will now continue and the flight envelope will be opened once again, while all the new tactical systems will be tested.


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## gogbot

sudhir007 said:


> *Saab's Gripen Demo makes first flight with AESA radar*
> 
> PICTURE: Saab's Gripen Demo makes first flight with AESA radar
> 
> Saab's Gripen Demo aircraft has made its first test flight since receiving a key technology on offer to potential export customers including Brazil, India and Switzerland.
> 
> Now equipped with the antenna and other elements of Selex Sensors and Airborne Systems' Vixen 1000E/ES05 Raven active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, the two-seat demonstrator resumed its flight activities on 27 October, when it performed a sortie from Saab's Linköping site in Sweden.
> 
> The heavily modified B-model aircraft had been on the ground in refit for the last several months, during which time Saab integrated its AESA array, new satellite communications equipment and additional internal fuel capacity. It has also gained new electro-optical radar warning receivers and missile approach warning sensors developed by Saab Avitronics.
> The Demo airframe has now completed more than 80 flights since May 2008, and is being used to de-risk technologies intended for use with Saab's future NG (new generation) production standard of the Gripen.
> The type has already been shortlisted in competitions in Brazil, India and Switzerland, and will equip the Swedish air force from 2014.
> Selex says flight tests of its new AESA design, which uses a unique "swashplate" mounting to significantly boost the sensor's area of coverage, will also support the technology's possible future integration with the Eurofighter Typhoon.
> The UK Ministry of Defence earlier this year confirmed a desire to equip its Tranche 3 Typhoons with AESA radars, and industry sources say a flight-test programme with the Selex design is expected to take place from 2012. EADS has previously flown an AESA array on a Eurofighter development aircraft in Germany.
> 
> unother link :-
> Gripen - The wings of your nation - Gripen NG Demo returns to the skies
> 
> *Gripen NG Demonstrator started flight testing again on October 27 following a modification which includes the installation of an AESA radar*
> 
> The Gripen NG Demonstrator has been modified with a number of tactical systems: AESA radar, a new satellite communication system, an electro-optical missile warning system as well as activation of the increased internal fuel.
> 
> "A lot of new features have been implemented since we flew for the first time last year, but it takes an expert to see any external changes to the aircraft. Most clearly visible are the sensors for the missile warning system and antenna for the satellite communication system," says Mattias Bergström, project manager for the Gripen NG Demonstrator.
> 
> *New tactical system*
> AESA radar, Active Electronically Scanned Array, is among the enhanced Gripen's capabilities. In simple terms, it refers to a radar that is built up of many small antenna elements into a large antenna. Each individual element can be controlled, facilitating many functions. Previously, the Gripen radar was a mechanically controlled antenna that illuminates one area at a time. An AESA radar can quickly scan larger areas, monitor more targets simultaneously and allow the pilot to operate with more flexibility.
> 
> "The new satellite communication system that we have introduced means you can communicate voice and text via satellite technology," explains Mattias Bergström.
> 
> *Electro-optical Missile Approach Warning System*
> The sensors of the electro-optical Missile Approach Warning System (MAW) can be seen on the aircraft at the wing root and by the air brake. The system will protect among other things against Man Portable Air Defence Systems (MANPADS).
> 
> The flights will now continue and the flight envelope will be opened once again, while all the new tactical systems will be tested.



Its all about the LCA and Kaveri projects.

Which jet offers the greatest strategic autonomy and commonality with the LCA will be chosen

Any one that cant offer something along those lines is just wasting their time.


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## marcos98




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## marcos98

*Rafale in September in Bangalore*



Photos of the Rafale in September when it was conducting the initial leg of its field evaluation trials for the MMRCA FET phase. Nobody else got a look at pair of aircraft when they arrived. Valuably snapped by talented planespotter/photographer, Debarka.

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## Brown

Who ever wins it is widely excepted that only MRCA aircraft can counter another MRCA aircraft.


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## Chanakyaa

Rafale is the Best of all.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


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## marcos98

*ECR-90 Captor Radar Rides on Eurofighter Typhoon&#8217;s Success*
The Eurofighter Typhoon's success is proving a boon for the aircraft's ECR-90 Captor radar system. (ECR = European Collaborative Radar.) The Euroradar consortium consists of EADS Defence Electronics of Germany, INDRA of Spain, and SELEX Galileo divisions in Italy and the U.K.

The ECR-90 radar provides air-to-air and air-to-surface coverage. Its air-to-air radar features include search modes, lock-follow modes, and air combat acquisition modes. its air-to-surface radar features include search modes, track modes, and air-to-surface ranging and terrain avoidance modes.

A contract for 620 Eurofighter aircraft for the air forces of Germany, Italy, Spain and the U.K was signed in January 1998, with overall production divided into three tranches. Tranche 1 consists of 148 aircraft. A contract for Tranche 2 production, involving 236 Typhoons, was signed in December 2004. A Tranche 3A contract for 112 fighters followed in July 2009. (Tranche 3A is approximately half the size of the originally negotiated Tranche 3 production quantity.) In addition, Austria and Saudi Arabia have signed on as Eurofighter customers.

Future Eurofighter contracts could result from 1) the four partner nations agreeing to a Tranche 3B order; 2) a follow-on contract from Saudi Arabia; or 3) new business. Several possibilities exist for new orders, with India being the most promising. The Euroradar consortium is embracing the growing popularity of AESA (active electronically scanned array) radars.

In May 2009, EADS announced the conclusion of the CECAR (Captor E-sCan Risk reduction) program, which developed the CAESAR - Captor AESA Radar demonstrator. CAESAR successfully completed a flight test program in May 2007. The CAPTOR-E is marketed as a low-risk upgrade to CAPTOR-M (mechanically scanning radar).


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## sancho

> Date Posted: 30-Oct-2009
> 
> Jane's Defence Weekly
> Germany opts against Eurofighter Tranche 3b
> 
> Sebastian Schulte JDW Correspondent
> Bonn
> 
> *Germany's new ruling coalition has decided against procuring the 37 aircraft outstanding under the Eurofighter Tranche 3b contract.*
> 
> Berlin decided in June to split Tranche 3 into two parts because the allotted financial resources of nearly EUR15 billion (USD22 billion) only allowed for the 31 aircraft of Tranche 3a to be procured. This would put Germany's total number of Eurofighters at 143, even though 180 had originally been planned.
> 
> However, the outstanding 37 aircraft are now to be covered by future exports. Germany is the Eurofighter programme export partner for Austria and possibly India, depending on the outcome of that country's next-generation fighter contest.
> 
> The coalition has also decided to retain the current contractual status of the A400M programme, meaning that EADS, owner of the manufacturer Airbus, would remain liable for costs should the aircraft suffer continuing delays. Until the A400M is delivered, Berlin plans to obtain strategic airlift capability by other means. Jane's understands that this would mean the continuation of the existing Strategic Airlift Interim Solution (SALIS).
> 
> Germany's new defence minister is Dr Karl-Theodor zu Guttenburg, the former minister for finance. While Angela Merkel has been Chancellor since 2005, September's election results allowed her to enter a coalition with her preferred partners, the Free Democrats. She had previously presided over a 'Grand Coalition' with her party's main rivals, the Social Democrats (SPD).



Another hit for the EF! The actual status is that AESA radar is still not cleared for development (Euro Radar said, if the radar development is not cleard till the end of this year, it could come too late for export customers like India) and this is only one part of tranche 3A which is not clear so far. A2G capabilities still in testing phase, CFT doubtful to be ready soon. 
Whatever they offer in form of ToT, or production parterships, it will not be worth the high amount of money and most of all the delays!


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## Screaming Skull

*FLIGHT TEST: Dassault Rafale - Rampant Rafale - An RAF Test Pilot's assessment​*



By Peter Collins

Most advanced Allied air forces now have operational fleets of fourth-generation fighters (defined by attributes such as being fly-by-wire, highly unstable, highly agile, net-centric, multi-weapon and multi-role assets).

These Western types include the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Dassault Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon and Saab Gripen NG. The Boeing F-15E and Lockheed Martin F-16 have an older heritage, but their latest upgrades give them similar multi-role mission capabilities. Of the above group, only the Super Hornet and Rafale M are capable of aircraft-carrier operations.

As these fourth-generation fighters' weapons, sensor systems and net-centric capabilities mature, the likelihood of export orders for such an operationally proven package becomes much more realistic.

*EXCLUSIVE ACCESS*

On behalf of Flight International, I became the first UK test pilot to evaluate the Rafale in its current F3 production standard, applicable to aircraft for both French air force and French navy frontline squadrons.

The "proof-of-concept" Rafale A first flew in 1986 as an aerodynamic study, leading to the programme's formal launch two years later. The slightly smaller single-seat Rafale C01 and two-seat B01 for the French air force and single-seat M01 and M02 prototypes for the navy flew from 1991.

The first production-standard Rafale flew in 1998, and entered service with the navy's 12F squadron at Landivisiau in 2004 in the F1 (air-to-air) standard. Deliveries of the air force's B- and C-model aircraft started in 2006 in the F2 standard, dubbed "omnirole" by Dassault. Since 2008, all Rafales have been delivered in the F3 standard, which adds reconnaissance pod integration and MBDA's ASMP-A nuclear weapon capability. All aircraft delivered in earlier production standards will be brought up to the F3 configuration over the next two years.

The French forces plan to purchase 294 Rafales: 234 for the air force and 60 for the navy. Their Rafales are set to replace seven legacy fighter types, and will remain as France's principal combat aircraft until at least 2040. To date, about 70 Rafales have been delivered, with a current production rate of 12 a year.

Rafale components and airframe sections are built at various Dassault facilities across France and assembled near Bordeaux, but maintained in design and engineering configuration "lockstep" using the virtual reality, Dassault-patented Catia database also used on the company's Falcon 7X business jet.

Rafale software upgrades are scheduled to take place every two years, a complete set of new-generation sensors is set for 2012 and a full mid-life upgrade is planned for 2020.

The Rafale was always designed as an aircraft capable of any air-to-ground, reconnaissance or nuclear strike mission, but retaining superb air-to-air performance and capabilities. Air force and navy examples have made three fully operational deployments to Afghanistan since 2005, giving the French forces unparalleled combat and logistical experience.

The commitments have also proved the aircraft's net-centric capabilities within the co-ordination required by coalition air forces and the command and control environment when delivering air support services to ground forces. Six Rafale Ms recently carried out a major joint exercise with the US Navy from the deck of the Nimitz-class aircraft carrier the USS Theodore Roosevelt.

The air force's B/C fighters have 80&#37; commonality with the navy's Rafale M model, the main differences being the latter's navalised landing gear, arrestor hook and some fuselage longitudinal strengthening. Overall, the M is about 300kg (661lb) heavier than the B, and has 13 hardpoints, against the 14 found on air force examples.

*'OMNIROLE' DESIGN*

Dassault describes the Rafale as omnirole rather than multirole. This is derived from the wide variety of air-to-ground and air-to-air weapons, sensor pods and fuel tank combinations it can carry; the optimisation of aircraft materials and construction; and the full authority digital FBW controlling a highly agile (very aerodynamically unstable) platform.

This also gives the aircraft a massive centre of gravity range and allows for a huge combination of different mission stores to be carried, including the asymmetric loading of heavy stores, both laterally and longitudinally.

Other attributes include the wide range of smart and discrete sensors developed for the aircraft, and the way that the vast array of received information is "data fused" by a powerful central computer to reduce pilot workload when presented in the head-down, head-level and head-up displays.

The Rafale is designed for day or night covert low-level penetration, and can carry a maximum of 9.5t of external ordinance, equal to the much larger F-15E. With a basic empty weight of 10.3t, an internal fuel capacity of 4.7t and a maximum take-off weight of 24.5t, the Rafale can lift 140% of additional load, above its own empty weight, into combat.

Added to the "active" elements of the aircraft's design are Rafale's "passive" safety features, which protect the pilot in various ways. These include "carefree handling" and automatic loss of control/airframe overstress protection allowed for by the digital flight control system (DFCS); the visual and audio low speed warning system; the continuously computed "deck awareness/ground watch" system with audio warning and HUD guidance for pull-out; and the pilot-initiated "spatial disorientation" automatic recovery mode from both nose high and nose low situations. Dassault also plans to introduce an automatic "g-loc" recovery mode.

The aircraft has been designed from the outset to take on any role (air, ground, reconnaissance and strike), but still have the flexibility to rapidly switch roles effectively once the sortie is under way if operational requirements change. Dassault calls this concept "fight and forget", which means that the Rafale pilot can concentrate on the tactical situation and weapons delivery, secure in the knowledge that the aircraft's systems are continually guarding his/her back.

Sensors integrated into the Rafale F3 standard include the Thales RBE2 radar, which gives multi-track air-to-air, ship track, terrain following radar (TFR) and synthetic aperture navigation modes. The RBE2 will be upgraded to a fully active electronically scanned array starting in 2012. Dassault's large ownership share of Thales means it can have significant influence on how the radar is tailored to the aircraft and how it can be exported.

The Spectra electronic countermeasures system is fully internal and provides radar warning receiver (RWR), active jamming, infrared missile approach warning, laser detection and chaff/flare. Data from Spectra is also "data fused" and fed into the pilot's tactical display. Additionally, the system can be rapidly reprogrammed by frontline ground technicians, as demonstrated operationally in Afghanistan.

On the aircraft's nose is the front sector optronics (FSO) suite, comprising a high-magnification TV sensor for single-target identification, and an infrared search-and-track sensor for multiple target detection in a "ball type" housing. The Thales Optronique Damocles pod is used for laser designation and can also provide a forward-looking infrared picture into the HUD. The Reco NG/Areos reconnaissance pod, carried centreline, provides long-range optical IR/visual capability by day or night, with datalink transmission of the recorded data to a ground station. The data can also be viewed by the pilot in the cockpit.

Datalinks include NATO's Link 16 standard, the close air support (CAS) Mode M datalink (image) and the CAS Rover datalink (video). The Rafale system enables the pilot to display image or video on either left or right head-down lateral displays, or on the head-level display. The pilot can also choose the cockpit image from whatever sensor source he/she wants, to transmit to a forward air controller, rather than be bound by a single image type fixed to just one sensor pod.

*PAYLOAD FLEXIBILITY*

The main air-to-air weapon type is the IR or radar homing Mica missile from MBDA. France is also collaborating on the same firm's beyond-visual-range Meteor missile, planned for 2016. An internal 30mm cannon with 125 shells adds short-range firepower.

For interdiction, the long-range weapons carried include the ASMP-A missile and MBDA's modular Scalp-EG, and the main anti-shipping weapon is the MBDA AM39 Exocet. For ground attack, the Rafale is cleared to carry laser-guided bomb types GBU-12 and GBU-22, with GBU-24 planned from 2010.

Sagem's 113kg AASM bomb is the French equivalent of the USA's Boeing JDAM, but has an aft rocket booster for additional range and features GPS or IR terminal guidance. It allows for a pre-programmed individual ground target engagement per bomb and from a multiple release profile, with three carried per bomb rack. In Afghanistan, the French call the AASM "magic bombs".

The Rafale has five "wet" hardpoints for fuel tanks. All five can accept the 1,250-litre (330USgal) (fully supersonic) tank, and the inner three central hardpoints can accept the larger (up to M0.95) 2,000-litre tank. An enhancing feature is that the Rafale can also carry a buddy-buddy refuelling pod.

The cockpit is fully night vision goggle compatible. Pilot helmet-mounted display and direct voice input are available as customer options.

The aircraft is a close-coupled design with two large canards, four leading-edge slats, four trailing elevons and one rudder to optimise lift/drag and reduce side-slip in all flight phases. The hydraulic system powering the flying controls operates at over 345bar (5,000lb/in2). Its DFCS is Dassault designed and manufactured in-house, and is the digital development of the Mirage 2000's analogue FCS.

The new system is better able to map the allowable flight envelope and give the aircraft even higher flying qualities than those of the Mirage 2000. The DFCS has three independent digital channels, with the fourth back-up channel being one of main analogue channels from the Mirage 2000.

The DFCS is a "g" demand system with +9.0g/29&#176; angle of attack (AoA) limit in air-to-air mode and +5.5g/20&#176; AoA limit in both of the two air-to-ground/heavy stores modes (ST1 and ST2) to cater for forward or aft centre of gravity. The aircraft continuously "recognises" the load it carries, but indicates and leaves the final DFCS mode selection to the pilot. Minus g limit in all modes is -3.2.

Engines are two Snecma M88-2E4s generating a combined 22,500lb (100kN) of thrust dry and 34,000lb in full afterburner. Time from idle to full afterburner is just 4s at any altitude. The aircraft has a fixed flight refuelling probe and its canards and elevons operate in conjunction to act as a fully variable airbrake, with both features intended to save weight. Maximum speed is M1.8/750kt (1,390km/h), service ceiling 55,000ft (16,800m), and typical approach speed at mid-weight (15t) and 16&#176; AoA an indicated 125kt.

Powerful carbon brakes allow for landing distances as short as 450m without the need for a brake parachute.

My evaluation aircraft was two-seat Rafale B number B301, the first production model to be delivered, which Dassault retains for test purposes. The cockpit was to full F3 standard, with just a small additional test control panel (telemetry) fitted in the front cockpit. The sortie was flown from Istres, near Marseilles.

I did not have time for any simulator, avionics bench or groundschool training. I received a 1.5h cockpit familiarisation on the ground in a Rafale at Dassault's Istres facility on the day before the evaluation. Other than this, I would fly the complete evaluation myself from the front cockpit. The ease and success with which I could fly and cope with such a massively capable fighter would be a clear indication of the Rafale's "fight and forget" design concept.

*TEST OBJECTIVES*

My evaluation objectives were threefold. Could the Rafale properly be termed "omnirole" with the range of its on-board sensors and weapons? Was the aircraft truly a fourth-generation fighter in terms of performance? And would its safety features keep me safe in such a demanding flight evaluation profile having had no time for any familiarisation in the simulator?

My safety pilot for the evaluation was Dassault Rafale project test pilot Olivier "Nino" Ferrer, an ex-French navy fighter pilot and highly experienced on Vought F-8 Crusaders and Dassault Super Etendards. A chase Mirage 2000 was used to provide close formation, air-to-air refuelling and tail-chase evaluation, and was flown by Philippe Duchateau, another Dassault project test pilot.

Pre-mission planning was carried out on a standard commercial computer laptop with access to the loaded program (confidential) protected by a security dongle inserted into the laptop USB. The mission plan was then downloaded onto a solid-state mil-spec memory card and loaded by the pilot via a panel on the left side of the aircraft.

I thought this straightforward but simple planning system was a very enhancing design feature, especially when the aircraft would be detached on operations or away from its main base on land-away.

I wore standard French flying clothing, including life preserver and g-suit. With the Rafale's Martin-Baker Mk16 ejection seat raked back at nearly 30&#176;, the French have found there is no operational need for an upper-body pressure suit. Entry and exit to the B/C models is via a ground crew-positioned vertical ladder, but the M model has an integral drop-down step. Seat height and rudder pedal adjustment is electric, and the cockpit is a classic fighter "snug" fit, but with all the required flight switches forward of the 3-9 body line, it fitted me like a glove.

The single throttle and sidestick controller contain over 34 separate switches, many with multifunctions, but the main switches such as airbrake, radio telecommunications, auto pilot and auto throttle were "chunky" and easy to differentiate.

The left and right lateral head-down display screens were touch sensitive with additional L/R rotary and L/R finger switches to designate and control display modes. It is here, for some routine tasks, that a future direct voice input upgrade could be useful.

The head-level display (HLD) allowed for a wide-angle view of the tactical situation and is focused at infinity, so there is no need to refocus your eyes when scanning rapidly between head-up and head-level. Advances in display technology may enable a future HLD to retain the same advantages in a more flat panel display and give more cockpit space.

The wide-angle (30&#176; x 20&#176 holographic HUD meant the displayed symbology was delightfully uncluttered and sharply focused and could be viewed completely without any head movement away from a design eye point position.

After the sideways-hinged canopy (designed to allow for unrestricted ejection seat removal if required) was closed electrically and with a rapid engine start using the auxiliary power unit completed, we were ready to taxi about 90s after engine stabilisation.

Taxi speed is easily controlled, because the residual ground thrust is limited by keeping both "mini-throttles" (acting as low-pressure cocks) in the "idle" position before setting them to "normal" for take-off. Ground steering was highly accurate and responsive, and the brakes were very smooth and progressive.

*FULL AFTERBURNER*

Our take-off mass was 16.1t (10.8t basic and 5.3t fuel) carrying one supersonic fuel tank centreline. Take-off was in full afterburner from the brakes and with a rotate of 125kt that came about 9s after brake release. Gear was retracted immediately after lift-off and afterburner cancelled at 250kt.

I was immediately aware after take-off of the sensitivity of the flight controls to any demand I made. The aircraft felt alive in my hands. I have never flown any aircraft that responded so instantly and so powerfully to stick input. The Mirage 2000 had previously been my favourite FBW aircraft in terms of handling qualities, but the Rafale with its DFCS betters it in every aspect of handling by a significant margin.

Climbing to 15,000ft into the test area was flown at 350kt, full afterburner and 35&#176; nose-up. In air-to-ground DFCS Stores Position 1 (ST1) at 350kt, mild buffet was encountered at +4.5g with 4t of fuel. In full dry power, a wind-up turn showed that the aircraft could maintain 350kt at +5.0g with just 10&#176; of nose-down pitch.

Later in the sortie at the lower fuel weight of 2t and 500kt, with the DFCS Stores Position set to air-to-air, the aircraft was pulled rapidly and effortlessly through to +9g and could be held there over a significant speed range. A final level acceleration from 200-500kt in full afterburner at 5,000ft and 1.8t fuel weight can only be described as brutal, with the aircraft increasing speed at about 30kt/s and the force of acceleration hurting my spine as I was pressed backwards against the ejection seat.

The steady state roll rate at 350kt was 270&#176;/s and the roll onset felt rapid but comfortable. At 450kt, the same steady-state roll rate was achieved, but the rate of roll onset was simply staggering. I have never experienced any fighter aircraft start or stop to roll so quickly.

*SAFETY FEATURES*

The low-speed warning system was assessed by putting the aircraft into a 35&#176; climb at 200kt at 15,000ft and closing the throttle. The HUD showed a "low speed" visual caution and the audio sounded "recover" as we went through about 100kt and flopped out.

The aircraft does feature an "anti-spin" switch but, to date, it has never been used, and even during the "spin phase" during development it proved resistant to spin even with the HUD indicated airspeed (shown in a video recording) falling to below 50kt in pro-spin manoeuvres.

The auto recovery button was evaluated and I activated it in nose-low and nose-high situations. The auto pilot and auto throttle instantly engaged to very positively roll and pull the aircraft (as required) to re-establish it in a 5&#176; climb at 350kt. The system engagement was an impressive safety feature to recover from pilot disorientation.

Re-climbing to 25,000ft, the aircraft was put supersonic up to M1.2 in a shallow dive and then pulled back subsonic to M0.8 in a 4g turn with the throttle slammed closed. The manoeuvre was completely benign and with the canard/elevon airbrake function proving highly effective.

The formation and tail chase evaluation was initiated by locking up the Mirage 2000 chase aircraft on the RBE2 at over 55km (30nm) and identifying him visually using the FSO TV presented on the right lateral head-down display.

In close formation, I initially found the Rafale over-sensitive in pitch, but telemetry informed me that I was holding the sidestick too high up, and after changing my grip, I could hold echelon position without problem. However, it was another clear indication of just how agile the aircraft is.

In line astern, the refuel "RFL" DFCS switch was activated, which reduced the flight-control sensitivity and made the aircraft "feel" much more stable and conventional in response, much like a BAE Systems Hawk. With "RFL" selected, a pilot would find an in-flight refuelling probe contact to a tanker drogue to be routine.

Resetting the DFCS and with the warning system ensuring I had gone from ST1 to air-to-air mode, I dropped back to about 500m line astern on the Mirage for a short tail-chase. This just re-emphasised the power of the Rafale and the accuracy of its controls. The aircraft can be flown in a "bang-bang" manner between axes, rather than requiring "rolling pulls". The Rafale is an outstanding close-in dogfighter whenever it wants to be.

The final handling manoeuvre was to complete a low-speed loop in full afterburner starting from 170kt and maintaining 16&#176; AoA. The loop was simple to fly and control and I used just over 2,000ft vertically to complete it: don't try that in a Panavia Tornado. Dassault says it may re-evaluate the fast jet format pitch ladder format to reduce pitch ladder "blur" at commanded high pitch rates.

I could not fault the carefree handling characteristics or the throttle response of the Rafale in any regime, and the only limit I ever had to remember in the flight was the gear limit (230kt). The Rafale was an absolute pleasure to fly, while remaining almost unbelievably responsive.

*LOW-LEVEL RIDE*

From medium level, I descended to low level and engaged the autopilot and autothrottle into covert terrain-following mode along our pre-planned mission route at 450kt/500ft above ground level (for noise abatement), first over the sea and then over the rugged terrain south-west of Arles.

The covert mode used a GPS database, but it can also use TF Radalt or the RBE2 TFR mode as back-up. Low-level ride was excellent in the gusty Mistral conditions, as was the accuracy of the TF profile followed by the aircraft over the semi-mountainous terrain, including flying towards sharply rising cliffs. The "ground watch" system painted a constantly updated escape profile floor in the HUD. With the TF engaged, Nino explained to me some more of the "data fused" symbology in the tactical HLD and altered the flight planned route and the time over target, which was then followed by the autopilot and autothrottle in speed mode.

At the same time, with both of us completely head-in and on TF autopilot, Nino locked up and the FSO TV identified airliners 10,000ft above us, and used the Spectra RWR to cue the FSO TV to do the same against a passing Mirage 2000 on a low-level mission.

Approaching the target, the release envelope ground "bubble" for the AASM was displayed in the tactical HLD, and "shoot" in the HUD. When within the AASM envelope, target bomb track is largely immaterial and, with the weapon button depressed and held, the five simulated programmed AASMs released to individual targets in a 0.5s separated salvo.

Breaking off from the attack run, I rejoined Istres for three visual circuits. The first two were "carrier" type and used the AT mode to hold 16&#176; AOA around the final turn and which I found to be an excellent aid to reduce carrier pilot workload. The landing attitude in the flare from about 18&#176; AoA while sitting on a seat raked back at 30&#176; takes a little getting used to, because you tend to touch earlier than you expect.

The third circuit was flown aggressively at low level with manual throttle used around finals to a maximum braking effort landing using about 500m of runway to stop. The HUD approach symbology and especially the very rapid engine response made circuit flying simple. We shut down after a sortie of 1h 25min with 470kg of fuel.

*DISTINCT ADVANTAGE*

It is worth remembering that stealth-optimised, or fifth-generation fighters such as the Lockheed F-22 Raptor and F-35 Joint Strike Fighter are not only likely to be hugely expensive, but they can only preserve their stealth characteristics by carrying a very limited weapons load in their internal weapon bays.

Therefore, in the current and predicted financial defence climate, it could well be that so-called fourth-generation fighters will remain the aircraft of choice for most nations - perhaps even including the UK.

Moreover, the fact that the Rafale is the only European fighter in production that is carrier-capable gives it, in my opinion, a distinct advantage in any future export "fly-off" competition as a single combat type that can equip a country's air force and naval air arm.

In answer to my own evaluation objectives, it was obvious the Rafale has earned its omnirole definition, even though I barely scratched the surface of its sensor and weapon capabilities. The aircraft has an incredible level of performance befitting a fourth-generation type, and despite flying a highly complex and demanding evaluation sortie, I felt completely at home in the aircraft and retained full situational awareness. If it could keep me safe, it would also do the same for young first-tourist pilots coping with tactical operations.

The classic definitions of aircraft combat roles really do not do justice to this aircraft; the Rafale is Europe's force-multiplying "war-fighter" par excellence. It is simply the best and most complete combat aircraft that I have ever flown. Its operational deployments speak for themselves. If I had to go into combat, on any mission, against anyone, I would, without question, choose the Rafale.


FLIGHT TEST: Dassault Rafale - Rampant Rafale

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## SBD-3

Super Hornet favourite in Indian and Brazilian tenders
The Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet is well placed to fulfil both the Indian and Brazilian fighter requirements, the company and its industry partners said on 28 October.

Boeing and its Team Super Hornet partners &#8211; Raytheon and General Electric (GE) &#8211; presented a broad-ranging review of the F/A-18E/F's position in both the Indian Air Force's (IAF's) Medium-Multirole Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) programme for 163 aircraft plus 63 options and the Brazilian Air Force's F-X2 tender for the first 36 of what is projected to be a total of 120 fighters.

Boeing stated that two major factors make the Super Hornet competitive in both markets: the first one being that the economies of scale that result from both the aircraft and its major subsystems are still hot (active) production lines and hence have steadily reduced the unit cost of the aircraft; the other is that the modular nature of the aircraft's sensors and propulsion system permit technology insertion that dramatically increases performance at minimal expense.

"The history of the F/A-18E/F's development has now seen a negative slope in terms of cost and a positive slope in terms of capability. For this reason we feel for the first time we are competing on even terms with the [Lockheed Martin] F-16 in terms of price," stated Boeing Military Aircraft IDS President Chris Chadwick.

Raytheon representatives, who also briefed during the New Delhi conference, emphasised that "Raytheon provided the first AESA [active electronically scanned array] radar sets to both the USAF [US Air Force] and USN [US Navy]", and that the company continues to leverage technological improvements across its product lines in improving the Super Hornet's AN/APG-79 radar.
263 of 509 words
Copyright &#169; IHS (Global) Limited, 2009


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## dbc

hasnain0099 said:


> *Boeing stated that two major factors make the Super Hornet competitive in both markets: the first one being that the economies of scale that result from both the aircraft and its major subsystems are still hot (active) production lines and hence have steadily reduced the unit cost of the aircraft; the other is that the modular nature of the aircraft's sensors and propulsion system permit technology insertion that dramatically increases performance at minimal expense.*
> *"The history of the F/A-18E/F's development has now seen a negative slope in terms of cost and a positive slope in terms of capability. For this reason we feel for the first time we are competing on even terms with the [Lockheed Martin] F-16 in terms of price," stated Boeing Military Aircraft IDS President Chris Chadwick.*



Sancho still think Super Hornets are uncompetitive?


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## sancho

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Sancho still think Super Hornets are uncompetitive?


Yes, because in both competitions the main requirement should be ToT and that is exactly the point where all US fighters can't compete!
That's why Rafale and Gripen NG are the frontrunners in Brazil and not F18.


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## dbc

sancho said:


> Yes, because in both competitions the main requirement should be ToT and that is exactly the point where all US fighters can't compete! That's why Rafale and Gripen NG are the frontrunners in Brazil and not F18.





duhastmish said:


> * 'We plan to build 18 aircraft in the US and from the 19th aircraft it will be built in India&#8230;. we will continue transfer of technology to India so that they not only assemble but make lots of part of the aircraft in India&#8230;. actually building the aircraft here,' Chadwick added. *



Boeing assurance on ToT for production of F-18IN

I guess you missed this post by duhastmish, there is a loophole in US laws that govern technology exports. The law can be circumvented if technology is passed to a subsidiary in India. You need to read between the lines when dealing with US firms and American CEO&#8217;s in particular . Of course, I&#8217;m no lawyer, perhaps prior Congress approval may still be required; but all things considered I don&#8217;t see Congress raising an objection for transfer of F-18 tech to a Boeing subsidiary in India.


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## Tejas-MkII

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Boeing assurance on ToT for production of F-18IN
> 
> I guess you missed this post by duhastmish, there is a loophole in US laws that govern technology exports. The law can be circumvented if technology is passed to a subsidiary in India. You need to read between the lines when dealing with US firms and American CEOs in particular . Of course, Im no lawyer, perhaps prior Congress approval may still be required; but all things considered I dont see Congress raising an objection for transfer of F-18 tech to a Boeing subsidiary in India.



And what about end user aggrement and routine inspection by US..

And these MRCAs will be among our frontline aircraft, then how is it justifiable that india give stratiegical information like location of F-18 or F-16 to US under end user agreement..,if india bought these aircrafts....


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## dbc

Tejas-MkII said:


> And what about end user aggrement and routine inspection by US..
> 
> And these MRCAs will be among our frontline aircraft, then how is it justifiable that india give stratiegical information like location of F-18 or F-16 to US under end user agreement..,if india bought these aircrafts....



Are you serious? Location of F-18's / F-16's, you can get that from Google Earth or media reports or from loose-lipped fly boys at the nearest watering hole; chances are some teenage fan boy will spill details of F-18 sightings right here on PDF. And there is nothing routine about inspections; it is an option in the contract that may be exercised when the supplier suspects breach of terms. These agreements or terms are not India specific; we insist our trusted allies agree to the same terms.


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## Tejas-MkII

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Are you serious? Location of F-18's / F-16's, you can get that from Google Earth or media reports or from loose-lipped fly boys at the nearest watering hole; chances are some teenage fan boy will spill details of F-18 sightings right here on PDF. And there is nothing routine about inspections; it is an option in the contract that may be exercised when the supplier suspects breach of terms. These agreements or terms are not India specific; we insist our trusted allies agree to the same terms.



well as far as google earth is concern,if i am right, data is static means it is not updated on daily basis and what if US want to monitor their ACs 24*7, then .....

Apart form this ,as you mention that from 19th ACs it will be build in india but is it mean we got the TOT(some) of hornet..

Even we get some TOT.... can we use that technology in our other aerospace projects independently 

Also US already start replacing its F-16 ,F-18 can stay there in US navy...,but they will also replace by F-35,ultimately...

And you can see rafale or Typhoon will be there upto 2040-50..

There is lots of IFs and BUTs attach with Hornet and falcon....


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## ejaz007

*MMRCA: Updates and Developments*


*Oct 16/09:*

Indias Business Standard reports that the long-awaited Mirage 2000 upgrade deal may have fallen through. The beneficiary would be the MMRCA competition for 126+ medium fighters, which would rise to 8 squadrons via a follow on order or local production of 2 more squadrons (40-48 planes, to replace 51 Mirage 2000s). According to their report, however, Dassault may have hurt its chances there, too:

According to senior IAF sources, Dassault has refused to reduce its quota of Rs 10,000 crore ($2.1 billion) for extending the service life of the IAFs Mirage-2000 fleet by fitting new radars and avionics. The Ministry of Defence (MoD) considers this price  Rs 196 crore ($41 million) per aircraft  unacceptably high. Israeli aerospace companies have reportedly entered the fray, offering to upgrade the Mirage-2000 for half the price being quoted by Dassault. The MoD, however, is not inclined to accept that offer.

....The IAF, traditionally a staunch supporter of Dassault and the Mirage-2000 fighter, is apparently changing its views. Dassault, say pilots, has badly damaged its credibility during the recent negotiations by arm-twisting the IAF over the supply of spares for the Mirage-2000 fleet.

India&#8217;s MMRCA Fighter Competition


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## sancho

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Boeing assurance on ToT for production of F-18IN
> 
> I guess you missed this post by duhastmish, there is a loophole in US laws that govern technology exports. The law can be circumvented if technology is passed to a subsidiary in India. You need to read between the lines when dealing with US firms and American CEOs in particular . Of course, Im no lawyer, perhaps prior Congress approval may still be required; but all things considered I dont see Congress raising an objection for transfer of F-18 tech to a Boeing subsidiary in India.


Boeings assurance is worthless since the US Gov don't clear it and in the old tradition that they didn't even share techs with close alleys, how realistic is it for India to get ToT of the really important techs?
The Brazil defense minister said, the offer of Boeing gets better now and the US has changed the policy of ToT, but still is not comparable with the offers of Dassault Rafale/France, or Saab Gripen/Sweden.

And as Tejas-MkII said, you are offering us just some upgraded old fighters, whereas the Europeans offers their latest fighters and techs. And with these options, F16 and F18 will have a though competitions, specially because many US weapons are on offer with the Eurocanards too (Aim-9, AMRAAM, Paveway, Gripen now fired Mavericks and gets clearance for other US weapons and I guess JDAM will be available for EF in future too). If you had offered F35 instead, which are even more expensive than EF, but gives a clear advantage, I'm sure IAF and IN had bought them, even with restirictions.
Anyway, just wait and see how the Mod will decide, for the Air Force, or for political benefits.


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## sancho

Cover of the flightglobal article posted on the last page by Screaming Skull:





Btw, the list of possible Rafale operators gets longer and longer. India (126+), Brazil (36 -100+) and Switzerland (22) already evaluating it, UAE (60), Qatar and now Kuwait are highly interested. And in times when other countries reduces their order of fighters, France goes on and now placed a new order of 60 Rafale F3 (180 totally ordered now) with AESA radar and upgraded EWS for it's forces.


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## Screaming Skull

From the Flight Global article I posted in my previous post-



> My evaluation aircraft was *two-seat Rafale B number B301*, the first production model to be delivered, which Dassault retains for test purposes. The cockpit was to full F3 standard, with just a small additional test control panel (telemetry) fitted in the front cockpit.



A reliable source tells me that the same B301 along with B302 came to India for flight evaluations. So, all the features mentioned by Peter Collins must have been available to the IAF test team too. My source further confirms that the trials in Jaisalmer meant to test the hot weather tolerance also included air to ground firings, air refueling with an Il-78 and landing at max landing weight .


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## Tejas-MkII

Screaming Skull said:


> From the Flight Global article I posted in my previous post-
> 
> 
> 
> A reliable source tells me that the same B301 along with B302 came to India for flight evaluations. So, all the features mentioned by Peter Collins must have been available to the IAF test team too. My source further confirms that the trials in Jaisalmer meant to test the hot weather tolerance also included air to ground firings, air refueling with an Il-78 and landing at max landing weight .



If your source is true , then i must say:

FOR GOD SAKE BUY RAFALE 

It definitely have no match in asia....


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## brahmastra

Interesting evaluation

by mathew63

Any decision of such strategic dimensions and magnitude, I am sure will have huge Government and Military thought processes in the play as there are geo-political, strategic, technological, competitive and self interests at play 

*1. Technologically Western is any day better because of R&D budgets, huge user base and actual war deployment experiences 
2. Basic A/C fighter characteristics, aerodynamics, I guess the Russian systems may be equal if not better 
3. Quality wise and spares reliability &#8211; Western is better by very nature of the Industry &#8211; non government controlled and driven by market forces 
4. Power pack &#8211; bomb for bomb, missile for missile, perhaps both are similar, but Western are still ahead due to other critical sub systems for delivery and guidance which is an advantage in today&#8217;s high tech battles 
5. Aerobatic performance &#8211; good for shows and general bravado, but useless for BVR with high tech missiles locked on to you 100s of miles away coming in at mach 2+ (akin to choosing ones partner by going to a strip tease bar and seeing how well her wares are?) 
6. Cost ratio of Russian to western aircraft = 1: 2 on average (assuming avg MRCA price being $70M+ each *

Geo-political speaking 
*1. The Russians and French have always stood by us and have adapted to our idiosyncrasies whereas the Western world have not 
2. The Russians/French don&#8217;t treat us differently due to government or power changes 
3. They don&#8217;t care whether we went nuclear, smuggled Uranium or tested another one 
4. Both seem to run an independent foreign policy (from Nat0, US and Europe) 
5. Both are willing to give TOT and share in new technologies 
6. Sanctions &#8211; that&#8217;s is an American/European word as far the Russians and French go 
7. America and India may want to appear to get close due to our similarities (democracy, government, common causes etc), and it is great if we do, but current scenario &#8211; till India learns to understand the functioning of the US Government, internal politics and bickering, bipartisan politics, lobbying etc, there is no chance of India being able to substantially get on the American law makers mind share any time soon (the Nuclear deal was by few good souls there) 
8. Another nuke test, and believe me another auto/ immediate sanction for next 20 years till another 911 type. So absolutely no go this direction until the yanks guarantee by both houses that unless there is direct war between India and the U.S, spares and support will not be affected even if there is a sanction due to some other cause *

Strategically and threat wise 
*1. For us basically only 2 threats Pak and China 
2. Pak threat for next 50 years is F-16, JF-17, J-10 and the Aim-120 if they get it 
3. China &#8211; I see no great threat (to the degree of Pak) except helping arm Pak. 
4. Now question is do we need an $80M plane to counter the Pak toys for air dominance and air superiority? 
5. I guess no, if we can do it safely and with a large margin of success with say anything of the $40M to $50M range 
6. So assume you get a lower tech/performance plane than the best the Americans/British have got to offer say something like the Grippen, Rafale or Mig-35 armed with Mica/Meteors/Derby/R77 with AESA coupled with Phalcon AWAC cover, you have more than what is needed to cover the PAK threat + neutralize or hold the Chinese threat*. 

Bottom-line 
*1. Considering all above factors &#8211; 3 good choices, Grippen, Rafale and Mig-35 
2. Grippen and Rafale totally new platforms, untested and difficult logistics issues 
3. That leaves Mig-35 with AESA (either Russian, French or Israeli) + all the matching WVR/BVR next-gen A2A arms and of course longer range and punch 
4. We can take care of spares, upgradeability, quality by going the MKI route (Israeli/French/Indian components) + local manufacturing (pvt), and R&D sharing 
5. A huge logistical and cost nightmare will be avoided due to commonality between Navy, Air force and getting benefits of standardization for spares, manufacturing, pilot training, knowledge management and logistics *

*BANG for the BUCK &#8211; MIG-35 is my choice*

Journals - (Indian MMRCA Combat Aircraft decision)

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## sancho

I agree with the first parts, but "Strategically and threat wise" and "Bottom-line" ar not correct.



brahmastra said:


> Strategically and threat wise
> 1. For us basically only 2 threats Pak and China
> 2. Pak threat for next 50 years is F-16, JF-17, J-10 and the Aim-120 if they get it
> They will get AIM 120 with new F16s but the main threat from pak won't be their fighters, but the induction of Erieye and Y8 AWACS, because it will equalise the edge that IAF has now with the long range MKI radar and Phalcon AWACS. Guided via datalink even our old Mig 21 Bisons are able to take out an PAF fighter in BVR and a JF 17 will do so against MKI.
> 3. China  I see no great threat (to the degree of Pak) except helping arm Pak.


Wrong, China is a way bigger threat to India than Pak, because China has similar interests in Asia and Indias stratigic location is a big threat for Chinas oil supplies.
Also their military is way bigger, more capable and rapidly growing, some reports say they will overtake US (in numbers of ships, subs... ) in a few years. No doubt is the main threat for India and that's exactly why the Gov and Mod concentrates way more on them now by arming up the Indo - Chinese border, procuring and developing new arms clearly aimed to counter Chinese arms. 


brahmastra said:


> 4. Now question is do we need an $80M plane to counter the Pak toys for air dominance and air superiority?
> 5. I guess no, if we can do it safely and with a large margin of success with say anything of the $40M to $50M range
> 6. So assume you get a lower tech/performance plane than the best the Americans/British have got to offer say something like the Grippen, Rafale or Mig-35 armed with Mica/Meteors/Derby/R77 with AESA coupled with Phalcon AWAC cover, you have more than what is needed to cover the PAK threat + neutralize or hold the Chinese threat.


Rafale should also cost around $80 million dollar, so it don't fit in his list. Anyway the main point to counter PAF in future will be, to have fighters with very low RCS, that can't be detected so early by their AWACS. That's exactly where our MKI and Russian Migs lacks behind (mainly because of old design) and fighters like Gripen, Rafale, or EF have clear advantages. So to counter the AWACS and Air Force threat from PAF and PLAAF, we need high tech fighters with high tech weapons. 


brahmastra said:


> Bottom-line
> 1. Considering all above factors  3 good choices, Grippen, Rafale and Mig-35
> 2. Grippen and Rafale totally new platforms, untested and difficult logistics issues
> 3. That leaves Mig-35 with AESA (either Russian, French or Israeli) + all the matching WVR/BVR next-gen A2A arms and of course longer range and punch


Wrong, Mig 35 only in prototype stage (and only the double seat was shown so far, no infos about the single seat available now!) Mig officially said the production will be delayed and can only start by 2013. Rafale instead came to Bangalore with ready AESA radar and proven techs, Gripen is integrating weapons now and testing the first AESA versions, but will need some time too.
I have some doubts about matching arms, because at the moment we have nothing comparable to Aim-120 and the R73 is several years old and can't compete with latest Aim9, Mica, Iris-T..., so even one on one without AWACS it will no be so easy against the F16s. 


brahmastra said:


> 5. A huge logistical and cost nightmare will be avoided due to commonality between Navy, Air force and getting benefits of standardization for spares, manufacturing, pilot training, knowledge management and logistics


The other side is overdependance on Russia and it arms, possible price increasings and delays and no major rise of maintenance, logistics, or pilot training with Rafale.

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## sancho

Screaming Skull said:


> From the Flight Global article I posted in my previous post-
> 
> 
> 
> A reliable source tells me that the same B301 along with B302 came to India for flight evaluations. So, all the features mentioned by Peter Collins must have been available to the IAF test team too. My source further confirms that the trials in Jaisalmer meant to test the hot weather tolerance also included air to ground firings, air refueling with an Il-78 and landing at max landing weight .


Does your source have some infos about the performance of Rafale, or whether the IAF liked it or not?


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## vnomad

Tejas-MkII said:


> And what about end user aggrement and routine inspection by US..
> 
> And these MRCAs will be among our frontline aircraft, then how is it justifiable that india give stratiegical information like location of F-18 or F-16 to US under end user agreement..,if india bought these aircrafts....




Thing is if End User Agreements or sanctions are still a worry, well that ship has sailed. India has already signed agreements for the C-130J, C-17 and most importantly the P-8I. I guess India and the US are past the stage where sanctions were a concern.


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## Screaming Skull

sancho said:


> Does your source have some infos about the performance of Rafale, or whether the IAF liked it or not?



Well the news is that it was flown by a senior IAF M2K pilot and if we are to believe Peter Collins- 
The Mirage 2000 had previously been my favourite FBW aircraft in terms of handling qualities, but the Rafale with its DFCS betters it in every aspect of handling by a significant margin.
I also learnt a few things about the performance of the aircrafts during the trials from my source but I will refrain from sharing the info here. Dont want to sound speculative. Bottom line is the fight is going to go down to the wire. 
In our ACMs words- all aircrafts are going neck to neck.


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## Iggy

Screaming Skull said:


> Well the news is that it was flown by a senior IAF M2K pilot and if we are to believe Peter Collins-
> &#8220;The Mirage 2000 had previously been my favourite FBW aircraft in terms of handling qualities, but the Rafale with its DFCS betters it in every aspect of handling by a significant margin.&#8221;
> I also learnt a few things about the performance of the aircrafts during the trials from my source but I will refrain from sharing the info here. Don&#8217;t want to sound speculative. Bottom line is the fight is going to go down to the wire.
> In our ACM&#8217;s words- &#8220;*all aircrafts are going neck to neck*&#8221;.



So the decision will be based up on who is giving bigger kickbacks


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## Insane

The MRCA was supposed to replace the MIG-21 .. Another MIG at this time should be a NO-NO specially since we have FGFA in the pipeline with Russia. IMO Time factor should be important here. Mig 35 will surely come with huge delays. 

At this point its almost sure that Mig-35, Gripen and F-16 are out. They are just going through the process now.

I am looking forward to F/A 18 joining IAF ( As the things stand today). Well i would have loved the RAFALE but seems like their campaign has received jolts during past few months and the Mirage upgrade issue could affect the decision. But I am not complaining if 126 F/A-18 are coming our way 

My Personal Preference would be - 
1. Rafale 
2. F/A -18
3. EURO FIGHTER

Actually MOD could split orders now that they have decided not to upgrade the Mirage Jets. So potentially they are willing to go for 48 more planes. 126+48 = 174 in all. 

100 Rafale + 54 F/A -18 would be Nice  ( Reduce 20 from 174)

1. It would be within the budget for MRCA+ Mirage Upgrades. ( $12 - $13 Billion)
2. Instead of being skeptical about the Americans always, why not try with a Decent order with them like 54 Aircrafts.

* I think we should be able to take care of the logistic challenges associated with it as a nation. so i am not thinking that way.

* 100 Rafale should still get us all goodies associated with it. TOT and everything.

* 54 F/A-18 may not come with lot of TOT but still must help getting first hand experience of a US Fighter, building trust and platform for future Deals. Just in case there are issues with spares and other things crop up with the Americans during crunch times, this number wont be too detrimental to our cause, But if everything goes well, who knows wot lies around the next corner.


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## vnomad

sancho said:


> Btw, the list of possible Rafale operators gets longer and longer. India (126+), Brazil (36 -100+) and Switzerland (22) already evaluating it, UAE (60), Qatar and now Kuwait are highly interested. And in times when other countries reduces their order of fighters, France goes on and now placed a new order of 60 Rafale F3 (180 totally ordered now) with AESA radar and upgraded EWS for it's forces.



Well the list of confirmed international orders the Rafale has secured is pretty short. 

I'm convinced that opting for the F-18E/F is the right decision. Its airframe is comparable to the Rafale but the rest of the aircraft outshines the Rafale in every other aspect. Its fly away cost is much lower, it fields better and cheaper munitions. US avionics regardless of developments elsewhere remain the benchmark for rest of the world(they developed the AESA in the early 80s). In terms of stealth the Superhornet is at the very least comparable to the Rafale, and probably better. It has secured far more orders(over 400 delivered) and the Growler EW variant is something that the IAF would really prize.

Most importantly, with regard the future upgrade potential, while the Armee de l'Air and Marine nationale are first class organisations, thanks to its sheer financial muscle, the USN are a better bet to ensure that the MRCA's lethality doesn't diminish with time (and their upgrades wouldn't cost an arm, leg and a kidney).


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## sancho

seiko said:


> So the decision will be based up on who is giving bigger kickbacks



Here is a hint what France is ready to give Brazil if they go for Rafale:



> Fighter: In the final competition, Dassault offers additional items to try to sell the Rafale to Brazil
> 
> Posted on 13/11/2009 at 17h24m
> José Meirelles Passos
> 
> RIO - In the final of the competition for a contract for the sale of 36 fighter jets to the Brazilian Air Force (FAB), the government of France - whose company competes with Dassault your model against the Rafale and Boeing Swedish Saab - added some items the package had already offered to Brazil. One is the possibility that, over the agreement, the Embraer Company may develop a more modern version of that plane and eventually export it to France itself. (See also: France fights back lobbies of competitors in the sale of fighter jets to Brazil)
> 
> This possibility is embedded in the fact that the promised *technology transfer that aircraft without any restrictions, it includes the transfer of its source code* - the heart and brain of the plane. Are the lines of code for programs that control both the weapons systems (missiles and on-board computers) as well as radar, engines, and moving surfaces (such as installations) of the game.
> 
> *"The fleet will have all the technology of the Rafale, including the so-called source code. With them she can either modify the aircraft as do, for example, a Super Rafale"*
> 
> This promise, plus the guarantee of several other advantages, were presented to the government for a special envoy of President Nicolas Sarkozy during a mild two-day visit to Brazil last week: Admiral Edouard Guillaud. He is "chief of staff particularly from the president."
> 
> - The agreement that proposed to Brazilian government is writing that the FAB will have all the technology of the Rafale, including the so-called source code. With it they can either modify the aircraft as do, for example, a Super Rafale, a new version - Guillaud said in an interview with O Globo. - These are technical specifications, ranging from the most general to the last screw of the landing gear. This is called transfer of trade secret - he insisted.
> 
> Rafale-Photo: Reuters
> 
> Guillaud talked privately with Defense Minister Nelson Jobim, the Copacabana Palace Hotel in Rio de Janeiro. Hours later, in an interview after commenting that "a fighter without weapons is an airplane flying club, very expensive", he revealed that in the spirit of strategic partnership France-Brazil signed last December, the Brazilian government assured that the France is prepared to go further: *if the Rafale win the competition, Brazil could produce even the weapons for such aircraft.*
> 
> - *The French missile industry also agreed with Brazil to share their trade secrets.* This shows that we are not just talking about a plane, but an entire global system for which we propose the transfer of technology.
> 
> Guillaud also said that it reinforced the French proposal with a plan for the exchange of top-level officials, especially the staffs of the armed forces of both countries:
> 
> - *We are not talking as traders. It is a strategic thinking, which can go much further *- he said.
> 
> Guillaud came to Brazil in the company of Damien Loras, Sarkozy's advisor for the Americas. During the interview he also emphasized some points of the proposal for his country, especially *that technology transfer would be "free course" and not an additional cost to the value of the airplane:*
> 
> - The value of this unprecedented transfer represents years of experience, developments, studies and know-how (design and manufacturing). This value is estimated between five and seven billion euros, ie more than the amount of the contract - said Loras.
> 
> Despite that mention of price, both he and Guillaud avoided mentioning specific figures on the cost of the Rafale - except the fact that it would be 4% more expensive than the F-18 Super Hornet, the American Boeing. This difference, they argued, would disappear over the 15-year contract to be signed with Brazil, because of currency fluctuations during that period.
> 
> - Independence and autonomy always require investment. Even the French paid a price to be autonomous and not depend on supply from other countries in the military. We accept invest more, a little more, to master our destiny. And Brazil now has a chance to do the same: the economy is strong, political will, and seeks the means to earn respect and be respected. This is where the tool operates military - argued Guillaud.
> 
> 
> The estimate is that the French package would cost about 5.5 billion euros. The admiral, declining to specify a value, said that in practice, taxpayers would pay for the Brazilian fighter a price equal to cost for the French themselves. Guillaud suggested that, in the last minute, there could be some kind of agreement regarding the value of the contract:
> 
> - We are in a competition and whoever is chosen (in terms of technical and operational) will enter into trade negotiations. Did not come here on behalf of the manufacturer (Dassault), but rather the president. What I can say is that during negotiations the French state will be present. President Sarkozy has pledged to do so. This is a commitment in writing, and firm - said Guillaud


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## sancho

vnomad said:


> Well the list of confirmed international orders the Rafale has secured is pretty short.


Yes, but not because the Rafale was inferior compared to other fighters in the competition, but because of political decisions. For India I see the same way, Rafale suits IAF at best, but politically the F18SH would be a bigger benefit. 


vnomad said:


> I'm convinced that opting for the F-18E/F is the right decision. Its airframe is comparable to the Rafale


What? All other fighters in the competition are more maneuverable than the F18SH and especially the Eurocanards!


vnomad said:


> but the rest of the aircraft outshines the Rafale in every other aspect. Its fly away cost is much lower, it fields better and cheaper munitions. US avionics regardless of developments elsewhere remain the benchmark for rest of the world(they developed the AESA in the early 80s). In terms of stealth the Superhornet is at the very least comparable to the Rafale, and probably better.


Cheaper in unit and ammo cost yes, but more expensive in maintenance and logistic and not necessarily better ammo (US was impressed by the precision of AASM, compared to JDAM during Red Flag and Meteor should be better compared to the actual Aim120). 
The huge and only redesigned F18 should have a better RCS than a new and with stealth in mind design of the Rafale? More than doubtful!


vnomad said:


> It has secured far more orders(over 400 delivered) and the Growler EW variant is something that the IAF would really prize.
> Not correct, the Superhornet has only a single foreign operator, that is Australia with 24 on order and a comparable EW suit like Growlers is now on offer for MKI too (search for Su 30 MKI Growler), so that is no point anymore.
> 
> 
> vnomad said:
> 
> 
> 
> Most importantly, with regard the future upgrade potential, while the Armee de l'Air and Marine nationale are first class organisations, thanks to its sheer financial muscle, the USN are a better bet to ensure that the MRCA's lethality doesn't diminish with time (and their upgrades wouldn't cost an arm, leg and a kidney).
> 
> 
> 
> That will depend on how much more orders the USN will place for the F18SH, because it is clear that sooner or later it will be replaced by F35. Rafale instead will serve the French military at least till 2040, so I don't see a problem for upgrades there. Btw, when talking about arms twisting we should ask Japan, or Israel about experience with US.
Click to expand...


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## Iggy

Insane said:


> The MRCA was supposed to replace the MIG-21 .. Another MIG at this time should be a NO-NO specially since we have FGFA in the pipeline with Russia. IMO Time factor should be important here. Mig 35 will surely come with huge delays.
> 
> At this point its almost sure that Mig-35, Gripen and F-16 are out. They are just going through the process now.
> 
> I am looking forward to F/A 18 joining IAF ( As the things stand today). Well i would have loved the RAFALE but seems like their campaign has received jolts during past few months and the Mirage upgrade issue could affect the decision. But I am not complaining if 126 F/A-18 are coming our way
> 
> My Personal Preference would be -
> 1. Rafale
> 2. F/A -18
> 3. EURO FIGHTER
> 
> Actually MOD could split orders now that they have decided not to upgrade the Mirage Jets. So potentially they are willing to go for 48 more planes. 126+48 = 174 in all.
> 
> 100 Rafale + 54 F/A -18 would be Nice  ( Reduce 20 from 174)
> 
> 1. It would be within the budget for MRCA+ Mirage Upgrades. ( $12 - $13 Billion)
> 2. Instead of being skeptical about the Americans always, why not try with a Decent order with them like 54 Aircrafts.
> 
> * I think we should be able to take care of the logistic challenges associated with it as a nation. so i am not thinking that way.
> 
> * 100 Rafale should still get us all goodies associated with it. TOT and everything.
> 
> * 54 F/A-18 may not come with lot of TOT but still must help getting first hand experience of a US Fighter, building trust and platform for future Deals. Just in case there are issues with spares and other things crop up with the Americans during crunch times, this number wont be too detrimental to our cause, But if everything goes well, who knows wot lies around the next corner.




Buddy one of the objectives for purchasing MRCA is to avoid logistical nightmare due to the the different aircrafts we have..and you are recommending more headaches??


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## Insane

seiko said:


> Buddy one of the objectives for purchasing MRCA is to avoid logistical nightmare due to the the different aircrafts we have..and you are recommending more headaches??



I Understand your point. But We need to try and absorb things then streamline. We need to take the extra pressure now.

Since our domestic output is nowhere and the infrastructure is just building up. That is how i see it. Take the burden, absorb the technology, take the knowledge, develop local industry then you can streamline into 2-3 kinds of aircraft hopefully mostly from indigenous production and 1-2 other country specific technology. 

We already operate french aircraft's and Rafale should be an extension of that tradition. Adding F/A -18 should be a welcome change. Who knows tomorrow F-35 may be on offer ? not suggesting in its most potent form but you never know. I am pretty sure we can spend $2-3 billion more on associated infrastructure. Every single thing in India is a challenge. We maintain wide diversity of people, cultures, ideologies, industries, infrastructure .. so its not really impossible to manage one extra variety of Airplane.. 

And if the whole point of MRCA would have been to avoid logistical nightmare why involve the Gripen, Eurofighter, F-16, F/A-18 all of which would need associated logistics. Could have just gone for Mig or Rafale ? Any of those planes selected will anyhow need new infrastructure and logistics plus putting the Mig 21-related Infra obsolete. So my point is its a challenge but we need to accept the challenge. To me it makes good sense.

100 Rafale + 54 F/A-18


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## vnomad

sancho said:


> Yes, but not because the Rafale was inferior compared to other fighters in the competition, but because of political decisions. For India I see the same way, Rafale suits IAF at best, but politically the F18SH would be a bigger benefit.



Politically _and_ offset conditions-wise every other aircraft would be preferable to the Rafale. 



> What? All other fighters in the competition are more maneuverable than the F18SH and especially the Eurocanards!



At what speed are they more maneuverable. The delta/swept-back wing configuration has a better performance and high speeds while a straighter wing configuration will perform better at a lower speed.



> Cheaper in unit and ammo cost yes, but more expensive in maintenance and logistic



How do you figure that? That cheaper unit cost is not due to compromises made on logistics, but due simple economies of scale. The sheer number of SHs produced pulls down the unit cost.



> and not necessarily better ammo (US was impressed by the precision of AASM, compared to JDAM during Red Flag and Meteor should be better compared to the actual Aim120).



'Impressed' is a pretty vague word. The AASM is far more expensive and their performance is .. lets say comparable to the JDAM(though almost untested). The current airforce inventory of the AASM is barely three figures compared the several hundred thousand in the US military(also thousands have been used in the field).



> The huge and only redesigned F18 should have a better RCS than a new and with stealth in mind design of the Rafale? More than doubtful!



If you can call the MiG-35, a redesigned MiG-29A, then I suppose the analogy holds here too. The only reason they didn't change the F-18 designation, was to sell it as a low risk option to the US Congress.

Yes, stealth was a very important consideration in the design of the F-18E/F. The difference being that while Dassault's previous involvements in stealth projects was practically non-existent, Boeing co-produces the F-22, was a contender for the F-35, co-designed the B-2 Spirit. Also, while the contract was awarded to Boeing, the technology that went into it came from all segments. The US has been flying stealth aircraft since the 80s, and that says volumes about their technology vis-a-vis French or any other country's. 



> Not correct, the Superhornet has only a single foreign operator, that is Australia with 24 on order and a comparable EW suit like Growlers is now on offer for MKI too (search for Su 30 MKI Growler), so that is no point anymore.



Yes only a single foreign operator(as opposed to none for the Rafale), but over 400 units in service. 

With respect to the Growler, its not merely a Superhornet with added EW pods and a software suite. Then entire aircraft is designed for EW, to replace the Prowler while the SH was designed to replace the F-14. While the SH gained its IOC in 2002, the Growler didn't enter service till 2008. So, converting an MKI into an EW warfare aircraft of the F-18G type will take dedicated and concerted effort. As for the EW suite being comparable, that's a matter of opinion, and IMHO it isn't likely to come close. 



> That will depend on how much more orders the USN will place for the F18SH, because it is clear that sooner or later it will be replaced by F35. Rafale instead will serve the French military at least till 2040, so I don't see a problem for upgrades there.



The F-35 wouldn't enter regular service for another couple of years and intended to replace the Hornet and operate along with the SH. An Indian order for the SH would allow it to comfortably operate till 2040. 



> Btw, when talking about arms twisting we should ask Japan, or Israel about experience with US.



Well I look at it this way. The F-16 and Mirage-2000 were roughly comparable aircraft.

The Mirage-2000 had 600 units produced and was operated by 9 countries.

The F-16 had 4400 units produced and was operated by 30 countries.

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## marcos98

*US OK With Systems for Gripen?*
In what is the clearest indication of the likely US attitude towards the supply of systems and technology to the Swedish Gripen, were it to win the Indian MMRCA (Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft) race, the US has agreed to the fitting of Royal Thai Air Force Gripen aircraft with its weapons systems. These include the AIM-9M and AIM-120 C-5 air-to-air rocket system, precision bombs and AGM-66 Maverick air-to-ground tactical missile.

A controversy over
whether the US would be willing to supply components and systems for the Gripen aircraft under its end use monitoring and technology transfer laws had apparently placed questions on the strength of the Swedish pitch earlier this year. Competitors in the race had questioned its ability to easily deliver parts and systems that were claimed to be substantially US-built.

But with the US now agreeing to supply systems to Thai Gripens, senior Indian officials think it would be difficult for the US to deny systems to any &#8216;Indian&#8217; Gripens, after agreeing to supply them to Thailand. &#8220;They would find it difficult to say no to us, if they&#8217;re providing systems for the Thai. Especially after all the fuss we went through over the End Use Agreement,&#8221; says one senior official.

Saab for now has little to say, with Anne Lewis-Olsson, Communications Director, India restricting her comments to, &#8220;Saab is glad to see the Thai air force has selected US weapons apart from the Swedish RBS-15.&#8221;
_defenitely a marketing pitch for the gripen....
the mrca is getting hot alright_


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## sancho

vnomad said:


> Politically _and_ offset conditions-wise every other aircraft would be preferable to the Rafale.


Why? 


vnomad said:


> At what speed are they more maneuverable. The delta/swept-back wing configuration has a better performance and high speeds while a straighter wing configuration will perform better at a lower speed.


So for strike missions it might have good capabilities, but in close combat not the airframe will give him advantages, only the HMS and Aim 9 that PAFs F16 will have too. 
Just search the net and you will find reports even of US F16 and F18 pilots that were impressed by Rafales performance. Greek pilots tested the Rafale compared to F18SH and with experience of their Mirage and F16 with the same conclusion. 


vnomad said:


> How do you figure that? That cheaper unit cost is not due to compromises made on logistics, but due simple economies of scale. The sheer number of SHs produced pulls down the unit cost.


Not only that, the reason why Eurocanards are more expensive than the US fighters is the high Euro, compared to a very low Dollar. But in logistics for example IAF had to buy a complete new set of weapons, because the only weapon that is available and could be used of F18 might be some paveway bombs. Weapons for Rafale on the other side are already there via Mirage 2000 and Jags. So you have to add such costs to the unit cost of the F18 too.


vnomad said:


> 'Impressed' is a pretty vague word. The AASM is far more expensive and their performance is .. lets say comparable to the JDAM(though almost untested). The current airforce inventory of the AASM is barely three figures compared the several hundred thousand in the US military(also thousands have been used in the field).


More expensive because of the same reasons you mentioned above for the F18! JDAM is produced in big numbers for a longer time, what reduces it's costs of course, AASM will be cheaper later too. Btw, "impressed" was the exact term that some articles used and if you think about, that JDAM has an CEP of around 10-13m, compared to 1-10m of AASM, I would say impressed is ok. To me that means that AASM has far more potential than the JDAM, especially when all types are developed. 


vnomad said:


> If you can call the MiG-35, a redesigned MiG-29A, then I suppose the analogy holds here too. The only reason they didn't change the F-18 designation, was to sell it as a low risk option to the US Congress.


Exactly, that's why it's also called Super Fulcrum and why I doubt that it can compete in RCS with new designs like EF, or Rafale, just like the F18SH can't.


vnomad said:


> Yes, stealth was a very important consideration in the design of the F-18E/F. The difference being that while Dassault's previous involvements in stealth projects was practically non-existent, Boeing co-produces the F-22, was a contender for the F-35, co-designed the B-2 Spirit. Also, while the contract was awarded to Boeing, the technology that went into it came from all segments. The US has been flying stealth aircraft since the 80s, and that says volumes about their technology vis-a-vis French or any other country's.


And that's why no other country on the planet can develop RCS reduction, or stealth design? Please buddy, the F18SH was a bit redesigned to have less RCS, fighters like EF, or Rafale instead was designed from the start with RCS in mind.


> Minimising the RCS has also been a design driver in order to make stealth tactics possible. Most of the stealth design features are classified but some of them are clearly visible such as the serrated patterns on the trailing edges of the wings and canards.



Optimized airframe


vnomad said:


> Yes only a single foreign operator(as opposed to none for the Rafale), but over 400 units in service.


France already ordered 180 and one of the potential orders that I mentioned is enough to have more foreign orders than F18SH, so that is really not a point for F18SH.


vnomad said:


> With respect to the Growler, its not merely a Superhornet with added EW pods and a software suite. Then entire aircraft is designed for EW, to replace the Prowler while the SH was designed to replace the F-14. While the SH gained its IOC in 2002, the Growler didn't enter service till 2008. So, converting an MKI into an EW warfare aircraft of the F-18G type will take dedicated and concerted effort. As for the EW suite being comparable, that's a matter of opinion, and IMHO it isn't likely to come close.


Given the fact that even Australia gets only a light version of the Growler without jammers, I would say a MKI with new EW pods including jammers will be better for us.


vnomad said:


> Well I look at it this way. The F-16 and Mirage-2000 were roughly comparable aircraft.
> 
> The Mirage-2000 had 600 units produced and was operated by 9 countries.
> 
> The F-16 had 4400 units produced and was operated by 30 countries.


And that says what? US weapon lobbies and Gov pressure worked very well in the past, especially in smaller countries. Just one more reason why I want an independent choice!
I can only quote French Admiral Edouard Guillaud once again:


> Independence and autonomy always require investment. Even the French paid a price to be autonomous and not depend on supply from other countries in the military. We accept invest more, a little more, to master our destiny. And Brazil now has a chance to do the same: the economy is strong, political will, and seeks the means to earn respect and be respected. This is where the tool operates military - argued Guillaud.


I hope India is following the same way and with P8I, C130, C17 and most likely Apache and Chinook there will be enough new US arms for India.


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## Screaming Skull

*Dubai 09: Boeing aims to win Indian deal with engine offer ​*
Boeing has offered the Indian air force a more powerful new version of the General Electric F414 engine to bolster its bid to sell 126 F/A-18E/Fs for the medium multi-role combat aircraft programme.

*Paul Oliver, Boeing's senior director for international business development, confirms the F414 enhanced performance engine (EPE) was submitted as part of Boeing's proposal to win the MMRCA contract.*

*Boeing first revealed plans for the Super Hornet engine upgrade last May, but declined at that time to confirm the EPE would be formally offered to the Indian air force.*

The US Navy conceived the upgrade a few years ago as an enhanced durability engine, with new materials and designs to bolster its service life. *Subsequently, Boeing and GE teamed up to add a 20% increase in thrust by improving the engine's hot section. Both the durability and thrust improvements will be included in the EPE package.*

Boeing also is discussing the EPE upgrade with potential new Super Hornet customers, such as Brazil, and existing operators like the USN. The USN has yet to make even the enhanced durability part of the EPE upgrade a funded programme for the Super Hornet.

Boeing is competing for the MMRCA deal against rival bids by the Dassault Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon, Lockheed Martin F-16IN, RSK MiG-35, Saab Gripen and Sukhoi Su-35.

Dubai 09: Boeing aims to win Indian deal with engine offer


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## sancho

Rafale armed with ASMP missile for nuclear strikes, wonder if they are on offer too and which other fighter would give such a capability?


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## lilaspr

Screaming Skull said:


> *Dubai 09: Boeing aims to win Indian deal with engine offer ​*
> Boeing has offered the Indian air force a more powerful new version of the General Electric F414 engine to bolster its bid to sell 126 F/A-18E/Fs for the medium multi-role combat aircraft programme.
> 
> *Paul Oliver, Boeing's senior director for international business development, confirms the F414 enhanced performance engine (EPE) was submitted as part of Boeing's proposal to win the MMRCA contract.*
> 
> *Boeing first revealed plans for the Super Hornet engine upgrade last May, but declined at that time to confirm the EPE would be formally offered to the Indian air force.*
> 
> The US Navy conceived the upgrade a few years ago as an enhanced durability engine, with new materials and designs to bolster its service life. *Subsequently, Boeing and GE teamed up to add a 20% increase in thrust by improving the engine's hot section. Both the durability and thrust improvements will be included in the EPE package.*
> 
> Boeing also is discussing the EPE upgrade with potential new Super Hornet customers, such as Brazil, and existing operators like the USN. The USN has yet to make even the enhanced durability part of the EPE upgrade a funded programme for the Super Hornet.
> 
> Boeing is competing for the MMRCA deal against rival bids by the Dassault Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon, Lockheed Martin F-16IN, RSK MiG-35, Saab Gripen and *Sukhoi Su-35*.
> 
> Dubai 09: Boeing aims to win Indian deal with engine offer




SU35?

Why India wants SU 35, MKI is way better then SU 35. Any way in my understanding India doesn't need any of these 5 better to buy more MKI. or start its production line in India.


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## SU-57E

SU-35 IS NOT IN MRCA COMPETETION BUDDDY.... its being offered separately by russia .


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## marcos98

*Lockheed adds probe to F-16 to attract India*




Lockheed Martin is to add an all-new capability for the F-16 specifically to entice a massive order by the Indian air force.

Lockheed has designed and demonstrated a probe refuelling system that extends from the right conformal fuel tank of the F-16IN, a proposed variant of the Block 60 tailored for India's 126-aircraft medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) requirement.

The new probe-and-drogue refuelling capability was demonstrated to Indian pilots during flight trials performed in September in India, said Rick Groesch, Lockheed's regional vice-president for Middle East international business development.

It represents the first time Lockheed has offered a probe refuelling capability for a newly delivered F-16. The Indian air force does not operate an aerial refueller that employs a boom system, which is the standard for the F-16.

Although the probe attached to the conformal tank is being offered to India, Lockheed is also discussing the capability with multiple F-16 customers, Groesch said. The system can be added for any F-16 already designed to employ conformal fuel tanks, which includes Block 50/52s and Block 60s.

The additional capability will surely boost the F-16's standing in the hotly competitive MMRCA competition. Its rivals, including the Boeing F/A-18E/F, already come with a probe and drogue refuelling system.

After completing the flight trials in India last September, the Indian air force will start Phase 3 evaluations in January, Groesch said.The F-16 will be tested in the USA for weapons and systems, such as the Northrop Grumman APG-80 agile beam radar, that could not be shown in India. India is expected to select the MMRCA supplier by late 2010, but subsequent contract negotiations could last for years.


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## marcos98

self delete


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## vnomad

sancho said:


> Why?



Compared to the other companies in running Dassault has been relatively complacent in its participation with the Indian industry.

Politically, France(and Sweden) will sell to anybody that can buy it without restrictions, and have a nasty habit of having second thoughts during conflicts. US and Russia are relatively safe options. Britain is the most influential member of the EADS consortium and has strong relations with India. 



> So for strike missions it might have good capabilities, but in close combat not the airframe will give him advantages, only the HMS and Aim 9 that PAFs F16 will have too.



I was talking about speeds during aerial engagements not the mission profiles of the aircrafts. Delta wings have both positive and negative features/characteristics. In any case the Superhornet's performance especially at low speeds is excellent.



> Just search the net and you will find reports even of US F16 and F18 pilots that were impressed by Rafales performance. Greek pilots tested the Rafale compared to F18SH and with experience of their Mirage and F16 with the same conclusion.



They found the Rafale handles better. That's only one facet of the aircraft. 



> Not only that, the reason why Eurocanards are more expensive than the US fighters is the high Euro, compared to a very low Dollar.



Reasons apart, the F-18E/F is the more economical option.



> But in logistics for example IAF had to buy a complete new set of weapons, because the only weapon that is available and could be used of F18 might be some paveway bombs. Weapons for Rafale on the other side are already there via Mirage 2000 and Jags. So you have to add such costs to the unit cost of the F18 too.



Getting access to the US munitions inventory would be a far bigger draw than being able to integrate MICAs and Exocets to the aircraft. In any case, the aircraft can be wired to accept most munitions if requested by the IAF



> More expensive because of the same reasons you mentioned above for the F18!



But, more expensive nevertheless.



> JDAM is produced in big numbers for a longer time, what reduces it's costs of course, AASM will be cheaper later too.



I doubt it. The French military is never going to get around to ordering even a fraction of what the US military has already ordered.



> Btw, "impressed" was the exact term that some articles used and if you think about, that JDAM has an CEP of around 10-13m, compared to 1-10m of AASM, I would say impressed is ok. To me that means that AASM has far more potential than the JDAM, especially when all types are developed.



JDAMs with the DAMASK seeker(production started in 2007) have a CEP of 3m without GPS assistance. Also, the LJDAM can hit mobile units.

The JDAM deliveries started in 1997 as opposed to the AASM which started being delivered in 2007. Which only goes to illustrate how the US military in general has always been ahead of the curve.



> Exactly, that's why it's also called Super Fulcrum and why I doubt that it can compete in RCS with new designs like EF, or Rafale, just like the F18SH can't.



My point was the Superhornet is NOT a redesigned Hornet. Except for the fuselage, the airframe shares very little with its predecessor.

And a low RCS was a major aim of the SH's development program. Inlet blockers, edge treatments, composites among others.



> And that's why no other country on the planet can develop RCS reduction, or stealth design?



How many other AFs _are_ flying stealth aircraft let alone retiring stealth aircraft? 

I'm not saying that RCS reducing measures aren't there on the EF and Rafale. But, the idea that the Rafale is stealthier than an SH is flawed.



> France already ordered 180 and one of the potential orders that I mentioned is enough to have more foreign orders than F18SH, so that is really not a point for F18SH. .



Well the only significant orders are likely to come from Brazil or India. In Brazil, Embraer has clearly stated a preference for the Gripen NG(giving it the opportunity to be more involved in the development) while the Rafale doesn't seem to have a better-than-average shot at the Indian MRCA contract. 

In fact the recent negotiations for the Mirage-2000 upgrade, lead one to believe that Dassault either doesn't have high hopes of winning the contract or doesn't give a crap about being in the IAF's good books.



> Given the fact that even Australia gets only a light version of the Growler without jammers, I would say a MKI with new EW pods including jammers will be better for us.



Australia didn't get _only_ a light version, the RAAF ordered _all_ its F-18E/Fs in a Growler-lite configuration.



> And that says what? US weapon lobbies and Gov pressure worked very well in the past, especially in smaller countries. Just one more reason why I want an independent choice!



4400 vs 600 orders is all because of weapon lobbies and govt. pressure? The French make fine airplanes, but the Americans offer a better package.


BTW, I'd personally like the IAF to opt for the Eurofighter, not the SH or Rafale, but I don't think _that's_ going to happen. With the delay that this contract has gone through, it would make better sense to go for the best one on offer. At least the marginal gain in potency will offset the more-than-probable delays in future IAF orders.

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## vnomad

Aviation Week & Space Technology 03/19/2001

Stealth Engine Advances 
Revealed in JSF Designs 
DAVID A. FULGHUM/ORLANDO, FLA. and WASHINGTON 

Airframers and engine makers improve classified low-observable propulsion technology for Joint Strike Fighter 

The Joint Strike Fighter program still has secrets to give up. The edgy atmosphere of the sharpening competition is helping uncover some striking differences in the methods contractors have used to manipulate stealth technologies--in particular to eliminate radar reflections from air inlets and engines. 

Once it became obvious that the competition would drag on at least another six months (until the new fiscal year), designers increasingly worried that details of their competition-sensitive technology would leak out. Their worries appear well founded. Aviation Week & Space Technology has uncovered considerable data about signature, sensor packages, weapons and weapons-bay designs and, now, innovations to engines and inlets. 

*Knowledge of JSF improvements also provides insight into the broader evolution of cheaper, reliable, low-maintenance stealth and critical low-observability improvements in other programs such as the Air Force's F-22 Raptor and Navy's F/A-18E/F Super Hornet. *

When Boeing revealed its full-scale JSF mockup at England's Farnborough air show last summer, most observers were shocked to see what appeared to be the engine face placed a few feet behind the opening of the air intake. One of the basic rules of stealth design is that you find a way to keep radar beams from striking the rotating parts of an engine. Engine faces traditionally produce large, sometimes amplified, and distinct radar reflections that can be analyzed to identify the engine and aircraft. 

In a clever use of technology (a technique considered a proprietary secret by the two companies), Boeing and Pratt & Whitney worked together to add stealth to the inlet guide vanes to mask the fan blades behind them. The inlet vanes are variable and open to provide maximum air to the engine in vertical flight, but close to minimize radar reflections during flight at operational altitudes. 

Techniques to hide engines from radar have evolved in the last 25 years. Engineers placed a grill at the front of the Lockheed F-117 inlet to keep radar waves out and bounce them away from the source (above). 
By contrast, Lockheed Martin and McDonnell Douglas (before the latter company was eliminated from the competition) relied more on serpentine air ducts leading to the engine to avoid such reflections. The ducts coil horizontally and vertically to avoid a line-of-sight path for radar. Once into the ducts, most radar beams are directed onto surfaces made of, or coated with, radar absorbing materials (RAM). Radar specialists say that after a couple of bounces, there's virtually no radar energy left for a dangerous reflection. 

The JSF competition is a good primer for how technology and tactics can be employed to keep radar from reflecting out of engine, exhaust and weapons bay cavities. The front of Boeing's JSF engine, for example, is only a few feet inside the air intake. To avoid radar reflections, the engine face has been hidden by special inlet guide vanes that have been treated with RAM and shaped to cause radar beams to make multiple bounces--including onto the air-duct walls. There, radio-frequency energy is trapped by RAM or bounced from interior surfaces, each time being greatly attenuated. One way or another, the radar energy becomes too weak to constitute a dangerous reflection. 

"*Radar blockers" or "stealth intake devices"have been developed for Boeing's F/A-18E/F and F-22 and are even being improved on the former aircraft. The difference is that the blocker is a separate device on Super Hornet, while it is an integral part of the engine, at least in the Boeing version of the JSF. The F-22 and Super Hornet use a combination of curved inlets and radar blocker technologies.* 

The first-generation SR-71 used huge inlet spikes to control radar reflections. The second-generation F-117 uses a more primitive grid device over the inlet as a radar blocker. A finer mesh screen was used on Northrop's Have Blue proposal, which would have choked air flow and limited top speed to about Mach 0.65. (AW&ST Feb. 10, 1992, p. 23). These earlier designs were abandoned in response to the demand for supersonic strike aircraft and cheaper, more robust stealth. Keeping radar beams out of the engine is a particular concern for aircraft with a single, large engine inlet. 

More recently, McDonnell Douglas added fan-shaped blocker vanes in the inlet of the F/A-18E/F. In the latest implementation, the blocker is an integral part of the Boeing X-32 engine design. Tony Landis photos. 
The F-117's inlet screens, when aligned with the rest of the aircraft's external faceting, help create uniformly conducting electrical surfaces that allow radar waves to flow around the stealth aircraft and exit from its aft-most point. Some stealth specialists worry that these signals, emitted to the rear of the aircraft, could provide the basis for a counter-stealth defense system. 

The Boeing JSF's intake radar blocker is built as part of the face of the engine with a bullet-like centerpiece surrounded by angled, radiating vanes. In parallel, the U.S. has developed infrared and radar suppression devices for jet exhausts and these have been flying on stealth aircraft for a number of years. These two types of blockers are generally used in conjunction with one another and the latter has become increasingly sophisticated as researchers find better ways to deal with an environment of extreme exhaust heat. 

"We've been using blockers in aircraft exhausts for many years," said a senior aerospace official. "It doesn't significantly affect the engine's airflow [which translates to power] through the exhaust, but [when used in an inlet, a blocker] has the potential to restrict airflow into the engine." 

Some stealth specialists say the loss in engine efficiency when using a blocker would be limited to only a few percent, and may be offset by the greater efficiency of a single large engine inlet (Boeing's option) compared to two smaller inlets (Lockheed Martin's design). Others say the effects of a blocker inside an inlet are more pernicious. 

"It's physically easier and more robust to build a long, serpentine duct and hide the [engine face], compared to the difficulties of putting in a [blocker] device," said a second stealth specialist with insight into the JSF program. "You've added something else that scatters [radar energy]. You also have to account for the demand on power and subsystems. For example, you have to deice the [blocker] element. 

"[Total engine efficiency] depends on the design of the device, the duct, the lips and how the pressure recovery and bleed systems are operating," the second specialist said. "It's fair to say there will be a performance loss when there isn't a nice, shallow, smooth duct. Finally, having something out there that can be hit by a bird or runway debris is not good [for maintaining the stealth signature]." 

Lockheed Martin's JSF design has room for the long, spiraling duct because the engine is located well aft in the aircraft. A shaft transfers power from the engine to a lift fan located just behind the cockpit to permit short takeoff and vertical landings (STOVL). 

However, Boeing's JSF demonstrator is designed for direct thrust from the engine to provide its STOVL capability. The engineering demands of the system required the engine to be much farther forward in the fuselage, allowing only enough room to hide the upper half of the engine face. Instead, Boeing is using a radar blocker built into the engine's face. The Super Hornet design differs in that it combines slightly curved inlets with a blocking device ahead of and separate from the engine face. 

ADVOCATES OF THE BOEING design say new technology makes the short inlet a better bet. "The issue is purely one of how much distance is involved in dealing with the [radar] energy," said an aerospace industry official with long experience in the JSF competition. "While the longer inlets are generally easier to model [and build], they consume a lot of internal volume in the aircraft and often produce aerodynamic or maintenance challenges." 

Stealth specialists agree that the choice of longer serpentine ducts versus larger radar blockers is a tradeoff between stealth, cost and aerodynamic performance. In smaller aircraft, the serpentine ducts tend to integrate better "than a big, fat single inlet," said a Northrop Grumman official. But when a larger aircraft is involved, it sometimes becomes more efficient to rely on a larger blocker, he said. There is also the issue of price. 

"Anytime you have a [large, complex inlet] front frame, it's more expensive from the aspect of construction and integration costs," the official said. "I know the front frame of the F/A-18 represents a significant development cost. Certainly the inlets on Pegasus [a new unmanned combat air vehicle demonstrator] are one of the most challenging aspects of the aircraft's integration." 

*It is known that the radar-blocking devices have helped reduce the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet's radar cross section (RCS) to an unprecedented low for non-stealthy aircraft--around 0 dBsm., the equivalent of about a 3-ft.-dia. aluminum ball. *That is far smaller than other aircraft that did not start out as stealth designs. By comparison, a human has an RCS of about -10 dBsm.; the JSF, designed from the start for low observability, is to have a stealth signature of -30 dBsm. (about the reflection from a golf ball); and the B-2/F-22 are pegged at -40 dBsm. (about the size of a marble). 

Other low-observability initiatives also involve stealth blockers at the rear of the engine to redirect and absorb radar signals that make it into the exhaust cavity from behind the aircraft. Earlier efforts included putting cylindrical radar blockers in the path of the exhaust or creating dog-leg exhaust to avoid the cost of developing and integrating expensive radar blocking devices. 

THE F-117, F-22, B-2 and now-canceled DarkStar unmanned aerial vehicles all employed a combination of radar and infrared suppressing technologies in their exhaust designs--including both reflecting and absorbing materials, a long-time Pentagon radar specialist said. In the past, a cylindrical blocking device was placed in the exhaust cavity, but scientists are looking at modifying engine exit cone supports or flow straighteners to duplicate the radar-dampening technology on the engine face. The problem with radar blockers in the exhaust is that they must either be cooled or, if allowed to heat up, they must not be visible from outside the aircraft. This is a problem that Lockheed Martin researchers say they have solved with the afterburning F-22. 

Hiding hot elements is critical because newer anti-aircraft missile systems are relying more on infrared and optical sensors than radar to find their targets, according to Pentagon intelligence studies. Such sensor systems foil counter-defensive systems like anti-radiation missiles that home in on radar emissions. Optically guided anti-aircraft missiles may have been involved in the shooting down of an F-117 in Serbia during the 1999 Kosovo air campaign. 

A hot, glowing mass of metal with direct line-of-sight to the outside of the aircraft would be an obvious target for such air defense weapons. Some stealth designs, such as the F-117, have a dogleg in the exhaust system that avoids the line-of-sight problem. But what the Pentagon wants are simple, inexpensive and rugged radar and infrared blockers that, along with RAM and reflective coatings, are easy to maintain in a very tough, hot-exhaust environment. 

Yet another JSF stealth issue involves how long weapons bay doors are open. There are two options, according to Frank Statkus, Boeing vice president and program manager for JSF. Normally, it takes 1-3 sec. for the lower weapons bay door to open, extend a 5-in. spoiler to deflect the slipstream, fire an air-to-air missile [Amraam or AIM-9X] and close. An ejector punches the missile away from the aircraft to ensure a quick separation. That limits the time a radar receiver can detect a reflection from the open cavity. 

For operations involving the use of air-to-ground weapons it takes 6-8 sec. Both doors open, a "swing arm" extends with the weapon and then it is launched. A tactic envisioned for the Boeing version of the aircraft--which has side-mounted weapons bays--is to shoot from the bay that is on the side opposite the enemy radar, thereby avoiding any momentary radar reflection when the bay is open. Weapons that must acquire a target before launch would require the doors to stay open longer and have line-of-sight to the target, but such weapons aren't initially planned for use from the JSF, Statkus said. Lockheed Martin offers weapons bays that open downward. 

*TECHNOLOGY THAT WAS USED to cut the radar reflectivity of Boeing F/A-18E/Fs--non-reflective pylons and RAM-coated weapons--also will be applied to "dirty" versions of the JSF that carry weapons externally.* 

With the distinct differences between the two JSF designs, Boeing and Lockheed Martin are offering the Pentagon a lot of clear-cut choices in STOVL systems, inlet designs, weapons bays positioning and sensor arrays, aerospace industry officials agree. It also may explain some of the Pentagon's predilection to keep the competition going far longer than anticipated."

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## SU-57E

Boeing to offer more powerful engines for F-18 to India

Boeing has offered the Indian air force a more powerful new version of the General Electric F414 engine to bolster its bid to sell 126 F/A-18E/Fs for the medium multi-role combat aircraft programme.

Paul Oliver, Boeing&#8217;s senior director for international business development, confirms the F414 enhanced performance engine (EPE) was submitted as part of Boeing&#8217;s proposal to win the MMRCA contract.

Boeing first revealed plans for the Super Hornet engine upgrade last May, but declined at that time to confirm the EPE would be formally offered to the Indian air force.

The US Navy conceived the upgrade a few years ago as an enhanced durability engine, with new materials and designs to bolster its service life. Subsequently, Boeing and GE teamed up to add a 20&#37; increase in thrust by improving the engine&#8217;s hot section. Both the durability and thrust improvements will be included in the EPE package.

Boeing also is discussing the EPE upgrade with potential new Super Hornet customers, such as Brazil, and existing operators like the USN. The USN has yet to make even the enhanced durability part of the EPE upgrade a funded programme for the Super Hornet.

Boeing is competing for the MMRCA deal against rival bids by the Dassault Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon, Lockheed Martin F-16IN, RSK MiG-35 and Saab Gripen
http://idrw.org/?p=1723

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## marcos98

*F-18 Super Hornets to Get IRST*




The F/A-18 E/F Super Hornet Block IIs are just beginning to enter service, with significantly improved AN/APG-79 AESA radars and other electronic upgrades. Recent years have seen another spreading improvement within global fighter fleets, however: Infa-Red Search & Track (IRST) systems that provide long range thermal imaging against air and ground targets. Most of these deployments have been on Russian (MiG-29 family, SU-30 family) and European (Eurofighter, Rafale) fighters, or special American exports (UAE&#8217;s F-16E/F Block 60s, F-15K/SG).

That absence puts American fighters behind an important curve. This IRST approach can defeat radar stealth in some instances, by focusing on engine exhaust or on the friction of the aircraft as it powers through the atmosphere. As F-14 pilots will recall, long range electro-optics also offer positive identification, conferring the ability to use a plane&#8217;s missiles to their full ranges, without creating friendly fire concerns. Best of all, IRST offers a passive way to locate and target enemy aircraft &#8211; one that won&#8217;t trigger radar warning receivers. When coupled with medium-range IR missiles like some Russian AA-10 variants, France&#8217;s MICA-IR, or even future versions of AMRAAM NCADE, an IRST system offers a fighter both an extra set of medium-range eyes, and a stealthy air-to-air combat weapon.

A program is beginning that would give American &#8220;teen series&#8221; fighters this capability, albeit in a somewhat unusual way&#8230;

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## gubbi

marcos98 said:


> A program is beginning that would give American teen series fighters this capability,* albeit in a somewhat unusual way*



Now what would that be? Any idea?


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## Novice09

I Really don't want MIG-35 and F16 in this race.

Therefore, my preference would be as below:
EuroFighter
SH 18
Rafael
Grippen

I'll keep providing the reasons for same in my upcoming posts


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## SU-57E

my 1st preference also would be eurofighter only as it is one of the best plane in the competition . it also brings political leverage. and above all they are giving us the opportunity to be partner.
feel free to comment.........


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## MZUBAIR

s.raptorski said:


> Boeing to offer more powerful engines for F-18 to India
> 
> Boeing has offered the Indian air force a more powerful new version of the General Electric F414 engine to bolster its bid to sell 126 F/A-18E/Fs for the medium multi-role combat aircraft programme.
> 
> Paul Oliver, Boeings senior director for international business development, confirms the F414 enhanced performance engine (EPE) was submitted as part of Boeings proposal to win the MMRCA contract.
> 
> Boeing first revealed plans for the Super Hornet engine upgrade last May, but declined at that time to confirm the EPE would be formally offered to the Indian air force.
> 
> The US Navy conceived the upgrade a few years ago as an enhanced durability engine, with new materials and designs to bolster its service life. Subsequently, Boeing and GE teamed up to add a 20% increase in thrust by improving the engines hot section. Both the durability and thrust improvements will be included in the EPE package.
> 
> Boeing also is discussing the EPE upgrade with potential new Super Hornet customers, such as Brazil, and existing operators like the USN. The USN has yet to make even the enhanced durability part of the EPE upgrade a funded programme for the Super Hornet.
> 
> Boeing is competing for the MMRCA deal against rival bids by the Dassault Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon, Lockheed Martin F-16IN, RSK MiG-35 and Saab Gripen
> Boeing to offer more powerful engines for F-18 to India IDRW.ORG



I think F-18 would be best among all. Acc to the need of Indian Air force and Navy.


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## MZUBAIR

I feel competition between EuroFighter & SH 18. Other will go down


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## sancho

vnomad said:


> Politically, France(and Sweden) will sell to anybody that can buy it without restrictions, and have a nasty habit of having second thoughts during conflicts. US and Russia are relatively safe options.
> Now that's a strange comment, isn't it US that posed sanctions on India and prefered Pakistan for years. Now that money and a big market is available US is ready to give us anything. France sells to both too, but they were reliable during sanctions and supported Indias permenant seat in the UN.
> Britain is the most influential member of the EADS consortium and has strong relations with India.


That's wrong, Germany and France are the powers behind EADS, Britain/BAE is only a smaller part behing Airbus which is a subsidiary company of EADS. That's why France for sure will offer EADS products, or jv combined with the Rafale offer, like they did in Brazil too (Eurocopter helicopters, partnership on Embraers transport aircraft development). 


vnomad said:


> I was talking about speeds during aerial engagements not the mission profiles of the aircrafts. Delta wings have both positive and negative features/characteristics. In any case the Superhornet's performance especially at low speeds is excellent.


But MMRCA will be the main frontline aircraft alongside MKI, so it's performance against PAF, or PLAAF fighters will be a main requirement too, don't you think? That's why I said, the US weapon pack will be a bigger advantage, than the slow speed capabilities. But these weapons are available on F16IN and most of the Eurocarnards too. 


vnomad said:


> They found the Rafale handles better. That's only one facet of the aircraft.


Agreed, but there are also more points where thr Rafale is better t/w ratio, logistics, ToT, co-developments and even some arms. The Rafale itself and the whole deal offers imo the best alround performance. Many good points in not only some parts, but several different parts. 


vnomad said:


> Getting access to the US munitions inventory would be a far bigger draw than being able to integrate MICAs and Exocets to the aircraft. In any case, the aircraft can be wired to accept most munitions if requested by the IAF


Sure, but you are forgetting Scalp cruise missile, AASM, later Meteor which are latest weapons comparable, or even better and don't forget that some US weapons are cleared for Rafale too (as far as I know, Paveway bombs, Harm and Harpoon and if customers wants also Aim 9 and AMRAAM). 


vnomad said:


> JDAMs with the DAMASK seeker(production started in 2007) have a CEP of 3m without GPS assistance. Also, the LJDAM can hit mobile units.
> The JDAM deliveries started in 1997 as opposed to the AASM which started being delivered in 2007. Which only goes to illustrate how the US military in general has always been ahead of the curve.


That's what I said, US developed such kits earlier and now in huge numbers, that's why they are cheaper. AASM with 1 CEP versions is better and only in the first stages of the development, so it has a greater potential. 


vnomad said:


> Well the only significant orders are likely to come from Brazil or India. In Brazil, Embraer has clearly stated a preference for the Gripen NG(giving it the opportunity to be more involved in the development) while the Rafale doesn't seem to have a better-than-average shot at the Indian MRCA contract.


UAE 60, that alone woulde be 3 times more than Super Hornets for foreign operators, not to mention 100+ from Brazil and India each 


vnomad said:


> Australia didn't get _only_ a light version, the RAAF ordered _all_ its F-18E/Fs in a Growler-lite configuration.


Sure, they only wanted the inferior Growler.  No mate, America don't like to share such techs.


vnomad said:


> BTW, I'd personally like the IAF to opt for the Eurofighter, not the SH or Rafale, but I don't think _that's_ going to happen. With the delay that this contract has gone through, it would make better sense to go for the best one on offer. At least the marginal gain in potency will offset the more-than-probable delays in future IAF orders.


I like the EF too, but it is too obvious that it won't be fully developed soon and that it will face further delays. That is not exactable for IAF at such a high unit cost, for Saudi Arabia instead, whithout a real threat and as shiny toys they will be good.


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## sancho

vnomad said:


> I'm not saying that RCS reducing measures aren't there on the EF and Rafale. But, the idea that the Rafale is stealthier than an SH is flawed.


Try to understand that the Superhornet is a base Hornet with improvements. The Hornet had not enough range and speed, that's why the SH is bigger now and has more internal fuel, also the air intakes was redesigned to be big enough for the upgraded GE414 engine.
The features you mention for RCS reduction will help, but won't make it a stealth fighter, because the main design is still the same (imo same goes for Mig 35 and Gripen NG). EF and Rafale on the other side a totally new developed design and the design itself aimed for very low RCS, not only the use other materials. They won't be stealthfighters too, but it is easier to develop such a design right from the start, than redesign it later. Just look at the F15 Silent Eagle, it is redesigned and of course with the experience that Boeing had in developing stealth fighters. But even RAM coatings, special materials and internal weapon stations, can't equalise the big size and design of it. 


Found this in another forum:



> Visible stealth features on Rafale:
> 
> Serrated area (airframe, Inlets)
> 
> 48* leading edge sweep.
> 
> IR Superssion for M88.
> 
> S-shaped inlet, M88 vanes, 5th generation core system architecture

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## RPK

*India: Fighter Jet Deal Trials Likely to End July - WSJ.com*

MUMBAI -- Field trials by six aircraft makers -- including Boeing Co. and Dassault Aviation SA -- for an estimated $10 billion Indian Air Force contract will likely be completed by July, an Indian minister said Wednesday.

"They (the trials) are expected to get over some time in June or July next year because testing has to be done across both the winter and summer seasons," M.M. Pallam Raju, junior defense minister, said on the sidelines of an industry conference.

Boeing is offering the F/A-18 fighter jet for the 126 multi-role combat aircraft deal, while Dassault has put up the Rafale.

Vivek Lall, vice president and India head for Boeing Integrated Defense Systems, said in October that the F/A-18 recently completed the second phase of trials in India's Leh, Jaisalmer and Bangalore areas.

The third phase will start in the U.S. in February.

Lockheed Martin Corp.'s F-16 Falcon, Russian Aircraft Corp.'s MiG-35, Saab AB's JAS-39 Gripen, as well as the Eurofighter Typhoon -- produced by a consortium of European companies--are also competing for the contract.

India plans to buy the 126 jets, as well as advanced helicopters and other defense equipment, to modernize its mainly Soviet-vintage defense forces. The Indian Air Force has 1,700 aircraft, including helicopters and transport planes, according to its Web site.

India, which is among the world's top arms importers, has earmarked 1.42 trillion rupees ($30.7 billion) as capital expenditure on defense for the current fiscal year through March 2010, up from 1.06 trillion rupees in the previous year.

Mr. Raju said 30&#37;-40% of this year's defense budget has been spent so far.

Under current rules, foreign companies which receive import orders in excess of 3 billion rupees must draw at least 30% of that order from domestic suppliers or make a similar sized investment within India, in what is known as an offset.

"The offset obligation for this (126-fighter jet) order is 50%," said Mr. Raju


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## Novice09

The six competing MRCA aircraft. (L-R): Rafale, Typhoon, F-16C/D, F/A-18E/F, JAS 39 Gripen and MiG-35. (Note: from Wiki)


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## Novice09

Reasons to oust MIG 35:

- This is a new plane which have to prove its worthiness.
- By getting this FJ India would (specially IAF) be badly depending on Russia to fulfill our defense needs.
- Track record of Russians for providing product support is very bad.
- Recent Russian demands for renegotiation of earlier contracts (specially in case of Gorkshov)

Those who think that Russia is our all time friend, I 100&#37; agree with you. But when it comes to BUSINESS I don't think that their are friends and foes.

By MRCA we are investing a huge amount of $$$$ and you can't make decisions on emotional basis.

These are my personal views. please feel free to disagree


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## ironman

> The F414 enhanced performance engine (EPE) includes an all new core and forward fan to dramatically increase the fighter's takeoff performance, said Bob Gower, Boeing vice president for F/A-18E/F.
> 
> The improvements would increase the F414 thrust rating from 22,000lbs to 26,600lbs. The baseline F414-GE-400, which also powers the Saab Gripen demonstration aircraft, is itself a 35% higher thrust version of the F404 and entered service with the Super Hornet fleet in 1998.





> *Boeing held a meeting last week in India and said that they are offering the GE F 414 EPE engine for the Indian SH which increases the thrust per engine from 98KN to 118KN+ or 196 KN per aircraft to 236KN+, the same engine is also being offered for the LCA's mk-2 engine contest *where the EJ2000 and GE F414 EPE will go head to head. EJ2000 is offering MATV however the thrust is 90KN just enough for the LCA mk-2 while Ge's F 414 EPE has a lot more thrust, but is also slightly heavier. the new GE engine reduces the fuel burn of the SH by 1%. Engine change can be done in less than 30mins and engines are left and right interchangeable. EJ2000 on the other hand boasts engine change in 45 mins. The EJ is also much more expensive with the engine costing over 10 million while the GE 414 comes for around half that. Boeing is also offering a 9-G superhornet unlike the USN's 7.5 g aircraft, this will require changes to the flight control system.



ie 118Kn each... good going. Even good news is LCA Mk2 gonna be a MMRCA.


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## marcos98

*Eurofighter: AESA decision by February*
Industry hopes to deliver proposals to the Typhoon partner nations to fit an active electronically scanned radar on the fighter by the end of the year according to Eurofighter chief executive Enzo Casolini.A decision by Britain, Germany, Italy and Spain on whether to proceed could come by February, he said.

Some industry executives thouh wonder whether funding constraints amongst the partner nations might make that approval date slip to the right.

Speaking at the show Casolini said he believed that adopting the new radar technology and the new MBDA Meteor ram-jet missile by 2015 is a fundamental requirement for current users and the aircraft&#8217;s future export prospects.

Eurofighter is already embroiled in key export campaigns in India and Japan where an AESA radar capability is essential.

Saudi Arabia,Typhoon&#8217;s biggest export customer to date, would fall in behind what the British Royal Air Force does, he said.

The British have been the strongest supporters of AESA technology for Typhoon for operational and export reasons, followed by Germany.

The Eurofighter boss said he was confident industry could deliver an &#8220;affordable and technically feasible&#8221; proposal to the partner nations.

A study involving industry and the partner nations has focused on two options. One is converting the current mechanically scanned Captor radar to electronic scan known as Captor-E.

Casolini said though his perception is that a new Selex Galileo radar which uses novel swashplate technology will be adopted.

A Selex radar using the same technology has already been selected by Saab for the Gripen NG fighter development being offered in Brazilian and Indian fighter competitions.

Swashplate technology allows the radar to reposition, giving it a wider scan than current AESA systems offered by U.S. manufacturers.


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## sudhir007

*Indian IT firms eye IAFs combat aircraft project*

Six global vendors have been shortlisted.Indian information technology companies are eyeing the $10-billion medium multi-role combat aircraft deal, up for grabs from the Indian Air Force.

Of this, about $1-1.5 billion (Rs 4,600-6,900 crore) is the size of the total IT integrated services pie, that would include engineering services and IT services, said industry sources.

One of the largest deals, the $10 billion budget by the Indian Air Force for 126 multi-role combat aircraft is being eyed by global players. Six global vendors  Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Mirage, Russian Aircraft Corps MiG, Saab 
Indian IT firms eye IAF&#8217;s combat aircraft project IDRW.ORG


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## SU-57E

@dore00011

what the **** is this, turning the thread to advertising board.


----------



## gubbi

s.raptorski said:


> @dore00011
> 
> what the **** is this, turning the thread to advertising board.



That is a spammer post. Report and ignore such posts.


----------



## amunhotep

*MRCA field trials to end by july 2010*

Field trials by six aircraft makers -- including Boeing Co. and Dassault Aviation SA -- for an estimated $10 billion Indian Air Force contract will likely be completed by July, an Indian minister said Wednesday.





"They (the trials) are expected to get over some time in June or July next year because testing has to be done across both the winter and summer seasons," M.M. Pallam Raju, junior defense minister, said on the sidelines of an industry conference.



Boeing is offering the F/A-18 fighter jet for the 126 multi-role combat aircraft deal, while Dassault has put up the Rafale.Vivek Lall, vice president and India head for Boeing Integrated Defense Systems, said in October that the F/A-18 recently completed the second phase of trials in India's Leh, Jaisalmer and Bangalore areas.



The third phase will start in the U.S. in February.







Lockheed Martin Corp.'s F-16 Falcon, Russian Aircraft Corp.'s MiG-35, Saab AB's JAS-39 Gripen, as well as the Eurofighter Typhoon -- produced by a consortium of European companies--are also competing for the contract.





India plans to buy the 126 jets, as well as advanced helicopters and other defense equipment, to modernize its mainly Soviet-vintage defense forces. The Indian Air Force has 1,700 aircraft, including helicopters and transport planes, according to its Web site.





India, which is among the world's top arms importers, has earmarked 1.42 trillion rupees ($30.7 billion) as capital expenditure on defense for the current fiscal year through March 2010, up from 1.06 trillion rupees in the previous year.



Mr. Raju said 30%-40% of this year's defense budget has been spent so far.



Under current rules, foreign companies which receive import orders in excess of 3 billion rupees must draw at least 30% of that order from domestic suppliers or make a similar sized investment within India, in what is known as an offset."The offset obligation for this (126-fighter jet) order is 50%," said Mr. Raju.


here is the link


ASIAN DEFENCE: India: Fighter Jet Deal Trials Likely to End July


----------



## sudhir007

Selex: Eurofighter partners near agreement on AESA radar 
By Craig Hoyle

The Eurofighter partner nations are moving towards an agreement to integrate an active electronically scanned array radar with the type, as discussions over Tranche 3A production near a conclusion.

"We are talking at great length, and there is a gradual coming together," says Bob Mason, vice-president marketing and sales for Selex Galileo, prime contractor and design authority for the Eurofighter Typhoon's current mechanically scanned Captor radar. "A lot of things are pulling E-scan to the fore, and we expect some sort of agreement within two to three months."

Selex, which produces over 50&#37; of the Captor system at its facilities in Edinburgh, Scotland and Milan, Italy, believes the addition of an AESA array will be a vital step towards the Typhoon securing additional sales with nations such as India and Japan.

"The Typhoon needs an E-scan radar, or it will not export," says Mason. Rival types such as the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and Dassault Rafale are already being offered with AESA systems.

EADS conducted test flights with the Euroradar consortium's Caesar active array using a Eurofighter development aircraft in 2007, and Selex has also previously supplied AESA systems to the UK Ministry of Defence for evaluation in fast jet types such as the Panavia Tornado. A prototype of the company's Vixen 1000E/Raven ES05 is also now in flight test with Saab's Gripen Demo airframe, with this viewed as a de-risking activity for a possible larger version for the Typhoon. A prototype AESA array was recently installed on Saab's Gripen Demo aircraft 

"E-scan was previously looked at as risky and potentially costly. Now the risk of doing nothing is worse," says Alastair Morrison, deputy senior vice-president radar and advanced targeting for Selex Galileo. "It's in everyone's interest to make this work."

Selex says an AESA array could now be produced for the same cost as a mechanically scanned system, but deliver a five- to 10-times increase in mean-time between critical failures, reducing maintenance and other through-life support costs. The new technology also brings advances in detection range and performance, for example by operating "virtually instantaneously" in both air-to-air and air-to-ground modes. Selex has also developed a "swashplate repositioner", which enables the normally fixed AESA array to be moved laterally by +/-100&#176;. "Germany now believes a repositioner of some sort is desirable," says Mason.

An AESA version of the Captor could also potentially be retrofitted to Tranche 2 aircraft for Germany, Italy, Spain and the UK. Separately, Mason says Selex is now investigating wider uses for AESA radar technology, including possible communications and electronic attack modes. "We are looking at all applications," he says.

http://www.flightglobal.com/article...er-partners-near-agreement-on-aesa-radar.html

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## vnomad

sancho said:


> That's wrong, Germany and France are the powers behind EADS, Britain/BAE is only a smaller part behing Airbus which is a subsidiary company of EADS. That's why France for sure will offer EADS products, or jv combined with the Rafale offer, like they did in Brazil too (Eurocopter helicopters, partnership on Embraers transport aircraft development).



I think you're forgetting the context here.

Powers behind is oversimplifying it. France is NOT nationally marketing it. Its produced entirely the four countries that constitute the consortium. Politically, the SH is a better choice, and the EF is a safer one(in terms of securing technical aspects of the aircraft). With respect to Germany, they aren't a very assertive country and will generally refrain from rocking the boat. France on the other hand would have been China's biggest arms exporter if it weren't for pressure from US, UK and other NATO allies. 



> But MMRCA will be the main frontline aircraft alongside MKI, so it's performance against PAF, or PLAAF fighters will be a main requirement too, don't you think? That's why I said, the US weapon pack will be a bigger advantage, than the slow speed capabilities.



And the F-18E/Fs aerodynamic performance is excellent, though avionics is where it thoroughly outperforms the Rafale and EF.



> But these weapons are available on F16IN and most of the Eurocarnards too.



Theoretically yes. But, practically speaking India is going to be importing munitions from whichever country the contract goes to.



> Agreed, but there are also more points where thr Rafale is better t/w ratio, logistics, ToT, co-developments and even some arms. The Rafale itself and the whole deal offers imo the best alround performance. Many good points in not only some parts, but several different parts.



In terms of ToT and logistics, it doesn't bring anything to the table that is ahead of the rest. As a matter of fact, they've had the most laid-back campaign of all the contractors. India's Mirage upgrade program is likely to be cancelled, because of their intransigence. 



> Sure, but you are forgetting Scalp cruise missile, AASM, later Meteor which are latest weapons comparable, or even better and don't forget that



None of which are significantly better than their American equivalents, and all of which are significantly more expensive.



> some US weapons are cleared for Rafale too (as far as I know, Paveway bombs, Harm and Harpoon and if customers wants also Aim 9 and AMRAAM).



Well nuclear weapons can be wired too, but we're not getting them either.  



> That's what I said, US developed such kits earlier and now in huge numbers, that's why they are cheaper. AASM with 1 CEP versions is better and only in the first stages of the development, so it has a greater potential.



That's the nub of argument and is why the F-16 consistently outsold the Mirage-2000. The huge numbers in production caused it to be a much more economical prospect. 

From India's perspective, as longer as its cheaper(and is qualitatively comparable to its competitors), its preferable irrespective of the 'whys'.



> UAE 60, that alone woulde be 3 times more than Super Hornets for foreign operators, not to mention 100+ from Brazil and India each



That's assuming it ever wins these contracts. So, far the record isn't promising. Foreign orders apart, the sheer number of SHs produced makes the SH a economically better option. 



> Sure, they only wanted the inferior Growler.  No mate, America don't like to share such techs.



The Growler isn't primarily a fighter aircraft. SH in a growler-lite configuration on the other hand _is_.



> I like the EF too, but it is too obvious that it won't be fully developed soon and that it will face further delays.



Depends on what you mean by fully developed(the development cycle for _both_ the EF and Rafale is a while away from completion). There have been over 160 deliveries of the EF as opposed to only about 60 for the Rafale.



> That is not exactable for IAF at such a high unit cost, for Saudi Arabia instead, whithout a real threat and as shiny toys they will be good.



If 'shiny' implies its expensive without performance, I must point out that the EF while costing roughly the same as the Rafale, brings superior performance to the table.


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## Tejas-MkII

Got this Link from BR:

Awesome information about Rafale, read those pdf files,if any body have any doubt about Rafale would be clear..

Publications

After These pdf if IAF got any other ACs than this it would be blunder mistake

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## marcos98

*Italian AF Doubts AESA Prospects for Latest Typhoon*
By tom kington and andrew chuter

ROME - As the industrial consortium behind the Eurofighter Typhoon presses customers to commit to an electronically scanned radar, the Italian Air Force has confirmed its doubts that the radar can be ready in time for the next tranche of the combat jet.
"The physical insertion of an AESA radar in Tranche 3A is not feasible timewise," said Gen. Giuseppe Bernardis, the Air Force deputy chief of staff.
"Another thing could be an interest in studying the option of retrofitting the fleet one day, money and circumstances permitting," he added.
Speaking at the Dubai Airshow this week, Eurofighter CEO Enzo Casolini said proposals could be submitted by year's end to the four lead Eurofighter nations for a new AESA (advanced electronically scanned array) radar to replace the twin-engine jet's mechanically scanned Captor radar. Britain, Germany, Italy and Spain may then make a joint decision by February on how to proceed, he said.


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## sancho

ironman said:


> ie 118Kn each... good going. Even good news is LCA Mk2 gonna be a MMRCA.


Keep some points in mind! 

One it is reported that the EJ 200 is more or less limited to 90kN at the moment, to have less fuel consumtion and because more thrust is not needed for EF (it already has the best t/w ratio in MMRCA). It is claimed that something between 90 and 100+ kN is possible without much changes. 

Two that it weighes less then the GE414, so even with less thrust it could achive a better t/w ratio.

Three that the GE414 EPE is offered, but not developed now! Only if an export customer is found, it will be developed and the USN will also upg their own fighters with this engine, otherwise they will go on with the actual 98kN engine. The fact that IAF didn't go for a co-developed Kaveri-Snecma engine with at least 90kN and wanted a ready and developed engine now, means that they can't go with the GE 414 EPE if it is not ready now right?

- Less weight
- ready and proven
- variable in thrust
- on offer with TVC
- more ToT

means to me, clear advantage for EJ 200!


marcos98 said:


> *Italian AF Doubts AESA Prospects for Latest Typhoon*
> By tom kington and andrew chuter
> 
> ROME - As the industrial consortium behind the Eurofighter Typhoon presses customers to commit to an electronically scanned radar, the Italian Air Force has confirmed its doubts that the radar can be ready in time for the next tranche of the combat jet.
> "The physical insertion of an AESA radar in Tranche 3A is not feasible timewise," said Gen. Giuseppe Bernardis, the Air Force deputy chief of staff.
> "Another thing could be an interest in studying the option of retrofitting the fleet one day, money and circumstances permitting," he added.
> Speaking at the Dubai Airshow this week, Eurofighter CEO Enzo Casolini said proposals could be submitted by year's end to the four lead Eurofighter nations for a new AESA (advanced electronically scanned array) radar to replace the twin-engine jet's mechanically scanned Captor radar. Britain, Germany, Italy and Spain may then make a joint decision by February on how to proceed, he said.


That's what I said, these problems will reduce EFs chances in India more and more. A decision by Feb is by far too late to get Tranche 3B fighters for IAF on time and delays for a $90 - 100 million dollar fighter are not acceptable!


----------



## sancho

vnomad said:


> I think you're forgetting the context here.
> 
> Powers behind is oversimplifying it. France is NOT nationally marketing it. Its produced entirely the four countries that constitute the consortium.


I think you are confused here with the EF consortium (with Germany, UK, Italy and Spain behind it) and the company EADS.
Check this and you will understand how much power France has in EADS, especially because the French state is involved directly!

EADS N.V. - Shareholding Structure


vnomad said:


> Theoretically yes. But, practically speaking India is going to be importing munitions from whichever country the contract goes to.


The prime weapon of Gripen NG, EF till Meteor will be ready is the same AMRAAM that the F16 and F18 uses. They also primary use Paveway bombs and Harpoon missiles, also every operator can have AIM 9, or HARM missiles too, so India will practically have many of the same weapons that are on offer with F16 and F18SH and not only theoretically.


vnomad said:


> In terms of ToT and logistics, it doesn't bring anything to the table that is ahead of the rest.


Full ToT of an ready AESA radar, full ToT of a ready and proven IRST, full ToT of the Spectra EW suit, ToT and possibly even a co-developed Kaveri-Snecma engine and you think that is nothing that puts them ahead?
Compare it with the rest, US fighters very limited ToT, specially from important parts like radar. Gripen NG ToT only with permission of other countries, EF slightly better because of own engine own avionics, but also reliable. The Mig with ToT of nothing that would be a major new tech, because of already co-developments of better Russian techs.
To me that means, France offers full ToT of very good latest techs, with no restrictions, that's exactly why Brazil is so keen for them and why it will have an advantage in India too! 
On logistics side, Exocet, Magic, missiles already available, Mica, AASM and pretty likely Scalp after the upg of Mirage 2000 (btw, there were only media reporting about the price issue, not a single official report of the MoD, so lets stay at actual facts and not at claims) vs. only Paveway bombs available as a US weapon in IAF so far. Again clear advantage France!


vnomad said:


> From India's perspective, as longer as its cheaper(and is qualitatively comparable to its competitors), its preferable irrespective of the 'whys'.


That was right some decades ago, but now we have more than enough money to buy the best that is on offer, not only the cheapest. If the others offer us more in return for more costs, its worth it.
Rafale higher unit costs, than F18, but less logistics, more ToT, suits better alongside MKI, less restriction. That all makes the higher costs worth it. 


vnomad said:


> Depends on what you mean by fully developed(the development cycle for _both_ the EF and Rafale is a while away from completion). There have been over 160 deliveries of the EF as opposed to only about 60 for the Rafale.


AESA, a2g capabilities, cleared weapons..., very important part to make the EF really multi role capable are still missing, whereas the Rafale has it ready now and useing some of them in Afghanistan. The fact that not a single EF is in Afghanistan says it all and btw, EF is produced by 4 countries, so 160 deliveries so far is the opposite of impressive, they are behind their own schedules.


vnomad said:


> If 'shiny' implies its expensive without performance, I must point out that the EF while costing roughly the same as the Rafale, brings superior performance to the table.


Shiny means expensive but way over their needs! They buy things to have them, not realy because they need such capabnilities to use them. That's why it will not matter Saudi Arabia if AESA radar is delayed, if a2g capabilities are limited, if they get less ToT and so on, for IAF instead these points are crucial!


----------



## vnomad

sancho said:


> I think you are confused here with the EF consortium (with Germany, UK, Italy and Spain behind it) and the company EADS.
> Check this and you will understand how much power France has in EADS, especially because the French state is involved directly!



Again, I must emphasize the context. Will French 'interference' somehow jeopardize a supposed Eurofighter contract? The answer is no. As far as the Eurofighter goes French influence is insignificant. 

Firstly, because the EF manufacturing is split between the consortium countries and France is not involved. 

Also the EF is manufactured by Eurofighter GmbH, that included BAe and Alenia Aeronautica in addition to EADS Deutschland and EADS CASA. 

Thirdly, even if it was a inhouse EADS project, the company would have to defer to respective contracting MoD's decision. In the case of the Eurofighter, that role is administered by the nodal agency of the consortium countries - NETMA(NATO Eurofighter and Tornado Management Agency), which excludes France. 



> The prime weapon of Gripen NG, EF till Meteor will be ready is the same AMRAAM that the F16 and F18 uses. They also primary use Paveway bombs and Harpoon missiles, also every operator can have AIM 9, or HARM missiles too, so India will practically have many of the same weapons that are on offer with F16 and F18SH and not only theoretically.



Well, the Rafale, without going into the details, practically speaking, isn't going to be equipped with the AMRAAM. 



> Full ToT of an ready AESA radar, full ToT of a ready and proven IRST, full ToT of the Spectra EW suit, ToT and possibly even a co-developed Kaveri-Snecma engine and you think that is nothing that puts them ahead?



The only ToT they are offering that the SH isn't, is the AESA radar.



> Compare it with the rest, US fighters very limited ToT, specially from important parts like radar.



True, the radar is from what I've read, technically surpassed only by the APG-81, that will equip the F-35 and the US isn't willing to part with that technology.



> To me that means, France offers full ToT of very good latest techs, with no restrictions, that's exactly why Brazil is so keen for them and why it will have an advantage in India too!



Well Embraer, which is to Brazil, what BAe is to the UK and Dassault is to France, is firmly in the Gripen NG camp. In any case, until the results of the Brazilian competition are out, judging 'leading' proposal is just plain speculation.



> On logistics side, Exocet, Magic, missiles already available, Mica, AASM and pretty likely Scalp after the upg of Mirage 2000 (btw, there were only media reporting about the price issue, not a single official report of the MoD, so lets stay at actual facts and not at claims)



The Mirage 2000 upgrade issue isn't very obscure or shrouded in mystery. Dassault wanted $2.1 billion(after the IAF diluted its requirements) to upgrade the fleet of 51 aircraft, which at over $40 million per aircraft was deemed excessive by the MoD. The MoD hasn't commented on it because it still hopes to salvage the contract through negotiations. In any case, the issue hasn't done Dassault's reputation within the MoD or IAF, any favours.



> vs. only Paveway bombs available as a US weapon in IAF so far. Again clear advantage France!



The Indian inventory includes the Harpoon as well(and the Magic isn't frontline material any longer). In addition the IAF would welcome the opportunity to induct the AGM-65 Maverick, Standoff Land Attack Missile (SLAM-ER), AGM-88 HARM, AGM-154 Joint Standoff Weapon (JSOW) plus JDAM kits.



> That was right some decades ago, but now we have more than enough money to buy the best that is on offer, not only the cheapest. If the others offer us more in return for more costs, its worth it.



The French aren't offering the best technology for highest prices, they're offering (at best), the same technology for higher prices. Not that you can blame them; if the USAF and USN were Dassault customers, the Rafale would be a whole lot cheaper, but unfortunately they aren't.



> AESA, a2g capabilities, cleared weapons..., very important part to make the EF really multi role capable are still missing,



Storm Shadow(Scalp EG), AGM-88 HARM, ALARM, Taurus, Brimstone and also JDAMs and Paveways, went online with the latest blocks of Tranche 2. 



> whereas the Rafale has it ready now and useing some of them in Afghanistan. The fact that not a single EF is in Afghanistan says it all



Well not a single F-22's been deployed to Afghanistan either, but still any AF would be leap at a chance to buy the Raptor.



> and btw, EF is produced by 4 countries, so 160 deliveries so far is the opposite of impressive, they are behind their own schedules.



Point wasn't how impressive it is, rather it was that the larger scale of production had depressed the price which was roughly at par with the Rafale's, while offering superior performance.



> Shiny means expensive but way over their needs! They buy things to have them, not realy because they need such capabnilities to use them. That's why it will not matter Saudi Arabia if AESA radar is delayed, if a2g capabilities are limited, if they get less ToT and so on, for IAF instead these points are crucial!



The estimated induction times of the RBE2 AA and CAPTOR-E are roughly similar, though the first test of the RBE2 was several months before the CAPTOR's.

Also, while we're on the subject, the APG-79 took seven years from introduction(2002) to full operational clearance(2008), a cycle that the Europeans haven't even begun.


----------



## sancho

vnomad said:


> Again, I must emphasize the context. Will French 'interference' somehow jeopardize a supposed Eurofighter contract?


I never said it will, my point was that with France as a major power behind EADS, the Dassault bid will also get big support of EADS with combined deals, or offset jv. 


vnomad said:


> The only ToT they are offering that the SH isn't, is the AESA radar.


What about EWS, or IRST? The only comments on ToT of Boeing officials was, that India could produce parts of export F18SH with ToT, but that can be wings, cockpit, or other parts of the airframe. I didn't see a single report that hints that any important tech will be transfered and produced in India. ToT of the airframe and possibly of the engine won't benefit our industry, like it will with the French offer.


vnomad said:


> Well Embraer, which is to Brazil, what BAe is to the UK and Dassault is to France, is firmly in the Gripen NG camp. In any case, until the results of the Brazilian competition are out, judging 'leading' proposal is just plain speculation.


If the President and the Defense Minister openly say that independance and ToT is the key in their competition and that Dassault offers this to Brazil, it is way more than speculation don't you think? Btw, Dassault has also offered a co-development of Embraers KC 390 and several more benefits, so Saab has lost one more advantage.


vnomad said:


> The Mirage 2000 upgrade issue isn't very obscure or shrouded in mystery. Dassault wanted $2.1 billion(after the IAF diluted its requirements) to upgrade the fleet of 51 aircraft, which at over $40 million per aircraft was deemed excessive by the MoD. The MoD hasn't commented on it because it still hopes to salvage the contract through negotiations. In any case, the issue hasn't done Dassault's reputation within the MoD or IAF, any favours.


I don't say its good to upg them for such costs, infact I said before we should go for more LCAs instead of upg Mirage 2k. But there were enough false media reports before, so wait for an official claim about it.


vnomad said:


> The Indian inventory includes the Harpoon as well(and the Magic isn't frontline material any longer).


Which IAF fighter uses Harpoon at the moment? Magic is still in use with Jags, at least till they are upg (AIM9, Asraam are roumored) and the Rafale can use them too.


vnomad said:


> they're offering (at best), the same technology for higher prices.


Yes, but including full transfer of these techs! The US instead allows only the use of these high techs for low costs, but we can't improve ourselfs, because the key techs won't be transfered. 
So is the higher cost for Rafale and it's techs worth it? YES!


vnomad said:


> Well not a single F-22's been deployed to Afghanistan either, but still any AF would be leap at a chance to buy the Raptor.


Please! Why should somebody deploy a F22 in a region without enemy air force? Even A10s would be more useful! 
The point was that Rafale has it's techs ready now (especially a2g) and can use them in actual missions, wheras the EF can't and that's why it's not deployed there.
Go to military photos for example and you will find many actual pics of German and Spanish EFs testing paveways and Storm Shadows. These weapons should be ready with the Tranche 3A, but till now there is no offical statement which weapons will be cleared. Just another hint of the limitations of EF. Sad, but that's the reality at the moment. 


vnomad said:


> The estimated induction times of the RBE2 AA and CAPTOR-E are roughly similar, though the first test of the RBE2 was several months before the CAPTOR's.


Not really, Rafale is flying with AESA now (like in Bangalore for the trials), not a single EF has flown with AESA so far and won't till possibly 2013. By that time not only the French airforce, but also export customers will get AESA radars in their Rafales.
I expect the EF radar to be better someday (larger diameter gives more range), but it's development is nowhere near to RBE2 AA development.


----------



## SU-57E

if we are getting 200 birds then a better option would be to divide the vendors... a possible scenerio would be

125-- EF OR, rafale
75 --- SH or GRIPEN


----------



## vnomad

sancho said:


> I never said it will, my point was that with France as a major power behind EADS, the Dassault bid will also get big support of EADS with combined deals, or offset jv.



Far from it. EADS isn't going to support the Dassault bid anymore than Boeing is going to pitch for the F-16. 

I think we've strayed from the original line of debate. My original assertion was that politically France(along with Sweden) was the worst choice, yielding little benefit. 



> What about EWS, or IRST? The only comments on ToT of Boeing officials was, that India could produce parts of export F18SH with ToT, but that can be wings, cockpit, or other parts of the airframe. I didn't see a single report that hints that any important tech will be transfered and produced in India. ToT of the airframe and possibly of the engine won't benefit our industry, like it will with the French offer.



The M-MRCA contract stipulates complete ToT. The US has had reservations about the APG-79's ToT(esp. when the others weren't offering an AESA). I haven't heard about any other restrictions.



> If the President and the Defense Minister openly say that independance and ToT is the key in their competition and that Dassault offers this to Brazil, it is way more than speculation don't you think?



Well from Brazilian point of view Gripen and SH are pretty competitive offers. And a complete ToT isn't feasible for a production run of only two squadrons worth. 



> Btw, Dassault has also offered a co-development of Embraers KC 390 and several more benefits, so Saab has lost one more advantage.



Well one could argue on the same lines that offering India a place in the four nation EF consortium is a lost advantage to Dassault. It doesn't really work that way though.



> I don't say its good to upg them for such costs, infact I said before we should go for more LCAs instead of upg Mirage 2k. But there were enough false media reports before, so wait for an official claim about it.



Upgrading the Mirage-2000 is very important. While no longer cutting edge, its still a very fine aircraft, and in view of the IAF's threat perceptions, its got a lot of potential unlike ... the MiG-21M/MF or the MiG-27.



> Which IAF fighter uses Harpoon at the moment?



It replaced the aging Sea Eagle AShM on the Jaguar.



> Magic is still in use with Jags, at least till they are upg (AIM9, Asraam are roumored) and the Rafale can use them too.



R-550 Magic on the Rafale? Kind of like arming the special forces with 0.303 Enfield rifles, isn't it?



> Yes, but including full transfer of these techs!



I believe we were talking in context of munition, tech transfer of which is not a part of the MMRCA contract.



> The US instead allows only the use of these high techs for low costs, but we can't improve ourselfs, because the key techs won't be transfered. So is the higher cost for Rafale and it's techs worth it? YES!



I'd still like to know what technologies have been refused with regard to the Superhornet.



> Please! Why should somebody deploy a F22 in a region without enemy air force? Even A10s would be more useful!



And this does not apply to the Rafale because ...... 



> The point was that Rafale has it's techs ready now (especially a2g) and can use them in actual missions,



The F-22 is a completely mature aircraft with a A2G capability equaling if not exceeding the Rafale's.



> wheras the EF can't and that's why it's not deployed there.
> Go to military photos for example and you will find many actual pics of German and Spanish EFs testing paveways and Storm Shadows. These weapons should be ready with the Tranche 3A, but till now there is no offical statement which weapons will be cleared. Just another hint of the limitations of EF. Sad, but that's the reality at the moment.



Like I mentioned before the Eurofighter starting with block 15 of Tranche 2 can employ the Storm Shadow, AGM-88 HARM, ALARM, Taurus, Brimstone, JDAMs and Paveway IV.



> Not really, Rafale is flying with AESA now (like in Bangalore for the trials), not a single EF has flown with AESA so far and won't till possibly 2013. By that time not only the French airforce, but also export customers will get AESA radars in their Rafales.



Please check your information again. The Captor AESA radar under the CECAR program made its first flight on the Eurofighter in mid 2007. In contrast, the flight testing of the RBE2 AA started in April _this_ year. 

Also, they brought the AESA for trials because the RBE2 PESA is very easily outperformed by every other production(existing) radar in the competition(except perhaps the PS05/A on the Gripen).



> I expect the EF radar to be better someday (larger diameter gives more range), but it's development is nowhere near to RBE2 AA development.



I disagree, the Captor-E is far from lagging vis-a-vis the RBE2 AA. The Captor-E when in production will have significantly more t/r modules than the RBE2 AA, also the issues that seem to be delaying the Captor are to do with production rather than development. In the event that India orders the EF, it will be delivered with an AESA.


----------



## RPK

*Procurement of MMRCA Aircraft *

PIB Press Release


The proposal for procurement of quantity 126 Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) for the Indian Air Force has not been finalized. The proposals received in response to the Request for Proposals are presently at Field Evaluation Trials stage. The estimated cost of the proposal is Rs. 42,000 crores approximately.


----------



## sudhir007

*Is it a done deal for Boeing in MMRCA?*

Boeing&#8217;s senior director&#8217;s have recently confirmed that Boeing along with Ge will offer the Indian air force a more powerful new version of the General Electric F414 engine to enhance it chances of winning contract for the 126 jets, Ge first tested F414 engine with an Enhanced Durability Engine (EDE) with an advanced core in 2006, the new enhanced engine provided 15&#37; more thrust increase, It has a six-stage high-pressure compressor (down from 7 stages in the standard F414) and an advanced high-pressure turbine, The EDE is designed to have better foreign object damage resistance, and a reduced fuel burn rate. news of F-18 suffering in Indian hot and humid climate where it was supposed to take off with standard payload was found grasping for air ,with new engine offer from Boeing has cleverly removed the disadvantage that F-18 SH had which might have made it loose the contract ,Boeing has offered F-18 SH with Raytheon built APG-79 AESA radar which first debuted in 2005 and since then has gone many chances and advancement ,Super hornet is under contract to be integrated with an Infrared search and track system (IRST) which will be positioned in the center line pod ,IRST Design itself will come from its rival Lockheed martin which is also offering F-16IN for the MMRCA Contract ,Boeing also has never refused an formal offer for Growlers which is an Airborne EW aircraft version of the F-18 SH ,Boeing also has one of the most active line of production for F-18 orders from US NAVY and Australian air force means that the company is able to deliver more than 30 aircraft&#8217;s to its customers without facing any delays .

*Is it a done deal for Boeing in MMRCA? IDRW.ORG*


----------



## BlackSonic

^^^ is this a good news or bad??


----------



## gogbot

Get the Rafael.
Get Schema help to make the KAvari more efficient.
Install Kaveri in Rafael and LCA-mk2

Rafael Cockpit 






Get F/A-18 SH
Get GE engine install on LCA mk 2.

Cockpit front




Rear




The choice is as simple as that.


----------



## vnomad

gogbot said:


> Get the Rafael.
> The choice is as simple as that.



Alternatively the IAF could get the EJ-200 on the Tejas and buy the Eurofighter.

The Kaveri from everything I've read so far is a lost case. Can be retrieved certainly, but its not worth the hassle. By March 2010, ADA will presumably award a contract for 100 engines(with an option for another 50) to either GE for the 414 or to Eurojet for the EJ-200.


----------



## gogbot

vnomad said:


> Alternatively the IAF could get the EJ-200 on the Tejas and buy the Eurofighter.
> 
> The Kaveri from everything I've read so far is a lost case. Can be retrieved certainly, but its not worth the hassle. By March 2010, ADA will presumably award a contract for 100 engines(with an option for another 50) to either GE for the 414 or to Eurojet for the EJ-200.



Kaveri is not a lost cause. 
and frankly is a comparable and more powerful engine then whats installed on the Rafael at the moment. However ot does weigh more.
Then the Light weight Schema engine.

What we need is domestic engine alternative more than anything else.
We cant export anything with out a domestic engine.
No export means limited investment.'
Export equals greater investment.

Not to mention that A lot of projects are tied into the Kaveri engine at this point.

the Kaveri in its present state is more powerful then the GE-404
but it suffers due to an extra weight and only 93 % efficiency.

getting a domestic engine Holds more value then the MMRCA deal at the moment.

Anybody can buy, very few can build.

And with regards to the Euro fighter.
there is nothing for India to gain in the long run by getting this plane other then possible delays.`

Get Rafael
get domestic.

Get Super hornet
get strategic.

Get Euro fighter 
get in line

need i sau anymore.


----------



## Insane

I do not understand how Euro fighter would be beneficial over F-18 SH or Rafale.

Its my gut feeling is that India wont buy Euro Fighter. Right Now it looks like 70%-30% probability of MMRCA going in favor of F-18 SH where the 30 represents all other fighters taken together.

Having said that I would still love 100 Rafale + 54 SH


----------



## SU-57E

i prefer 100 EUROFIGHTERS + 89 SHs


----------



## Insane

s.raptorski said:


> i prefer 100 EUROFIGHTERS + 89 SHs



That will go a few billion over budget  IF we get two fighters we need to reduce the number a little. The few billions saved could be used for associated logistics.


----------



## marcos98

*Feature: Indian Navy's RFI for new aircraft could change the MMRCA game*

25 Nov 2009 8ak: The Indian Navy has issued an RFI for 40 naval aircraft (read Yahoo), which unfortunately as per guidelines issued earlier is not available on the internet, so we are restricted in distributing it. Our sources indicate that the Navy may just be looking around for information and may only put in a follow on order with the MMRCA winner, if they have a suitable offering. This may be great news for Boeing's Super Hornet, Dassault's Rafale and bad news for Saab's Gripen and Lockheed's F-16. 

In July 2008, 8ak had interviewed U.S. historian Jason Verdugo on why the U.S. should give the USS Kitty Hawk aircraft carrier to India. Part of the discussion was the consideration of fighter aircraft that can be used both on the carriers and on normal military airports. Read that article here. 

This reflects badly on DRDO, ADA and HAL as it may indicate that the naval version of the indigenously developed LCA Tejas is failing. Another reason to privatise (not that India needs any more!)?


----------



## SU-57E

@ insane
total projected no. my friend is now even more
126+63 for air force
~40 for navy

as much as few more billions are concerned as everybody knows the armed forces cant even utilize the given budget to them so a few billions wont make a dent


----------



## idune

Did anyone in india got tired of this MRCA mula yet?


----------



## vnomad

gogbot said:


> Kaveri is not a lost cause.
> and frankly is a comparable and more powerful engine then whats installed on the Rafael at the moment. However ot does weigh more.
> Then the Light weight Schema engine.



Thrust by itself isn't relevant or the RD-33(MiG-29) would have been integrated onto the Tejas long back. Technically, most foreign engines(esp. EJ-200) _are_ far superior to what the Kaveri is _aimed_ to be.



> What we need is domestic engine alternative more than anything else.
> We cant export anything with out a domestic engine.
> No export means limited investment.'
> Export equals greater investment.



You can export an aircraft with a imported engine(Gripen exported to RSA-AF). And at this point domestic investment into Tejas is likely to be the only source of funding for quite a while.



> Not to mention that A lot of projects are tied into the Kaveri engine at this point.



There is a marine engine under development(which too in underpowered compared to its alternatives).

I don't know of any project that hinges on the Kaveri.



> the Kaveri in its present state is more powerful then the GE-404
> but it suffers due to an extra weight and only 93 % efficiency.



True but then again the performance of the FE-404 is no longer the benchmark for the IAF.



> getting a domestic engine Holds more value then the MMRCA deal at the moment.
> 
> Anybody can buy, very few can build.



With the rapidly dropping number of aircraft in the IAF, the MMRCA is one of the most crucial contracts at the moment. Achieving the exclusivity of building an aero-engine is a less important concern.



> And with regards to the Euro fighter.
> there is nothing for India to gain in the long run by getting this plane other then possible delays.



Well the IAF gets the best air-superiority fighter(after the F-22) in production, with a air to ground capability rivaling its contenders.
I don't believe any delays are inevitable.`


----------



## gogbot

marcos98 said:


> *Feature: Indian Navy's RFI for new aircraft could change the MMRCA game*
> 
> 25 Nov 2009 8ak: The Indian Navy has issued an RFI for 40 naval aircraft (read Yahoo), which unfortunately as per guidelines issued earlier is not available on the internet, so we are restricted in distributing it. Our sources indicate that the Navy may just be looking around for information and may only put in a follow on order with the MMRCA winner, if they have a suitable offering. This may be great news for Boeing's Super Hornet, Dassault's Rafale and bad news for Saab's Gripen and Lockheed's F-16.
> 
> In July 2008, 8ak had interviewed U.S. historian Jason Verdugo on why the U.S. should give the USS Kitty Hawk aircraft carrier to India. Part of the discussion was the consideration of fighter aircraft that can be used both on the carriers and on normal military airports. Read that article here.



Well this just re affirms what has been the only two choices since the start of the Whole thing
There are only two planes with a naval version.
Superbug and Rafael

_More orders means a decrease in Cost per unit. for IAF
and IN can buy planes at a much cheaper price then ever before._

*This is about economies of Scale. IN can see an Opportunity here and are willing to cash it in to get some advanced jets.*

A possible deal for 240 jets. That's Buying a small air force.
And any company in the world would jump at the chance to be the supplier.






marcos98 said:


> This reflects badly on DRDO, ADA and HAL as it may indicate that the naval version of the indigenously developed LCA Tejas is failing. Another reason to privatise (not that India needs any more!)?





> Indian Navy Orders Six Naval Tejas LCA Fighters; Infuses Rs.900 Crore in Programme
> 
> Indian Navy has okay-ed the placement of an order for six Naval Tejas Light Combat Aircrafts (N-LCA). At an approximate cost of Rs 150 crore per aircraft, this will provide a Rs 900 crore infusion into the Naval LCA programme.
> 
> That investment in the Tejas programme is rooted in the navy's plan to operate both light and medium fighters off its aircraft carriers.
> 
> The Naval LCA will supplement the heavier Russian MiG-29K, which has already been ordered from Russia. The Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC), being built at Cochin Shipyard, Kochi, has been designed with a separate aircraft lift and maintenance facilities for the LCA, in addition to facilities for the MiG-29K. That has linked the development of the Naval LCA with the construction of the IAC, which is expected to join the fleet by 2014.
> 
> But the LCA programme faces a bottleneck in choosing a new engine. Two uprated engines -- the General Electric GE-414 and the Eurojet EJ-200 -- are currently being evaluated, but will be supplied only by 2013-14. And only with the new engine will the LCA have the power to get airborne from an aircraft carrier.
> 
> P S Subramaniam, the Director of the Aeronautical Development Agency, which coordinates the LCA programme, explains: "We will fly the Naval LCA with the current GE-404 engine to test its flight characteristics, and whether its structural strength is sufficient for aircraft carrier operations. After the LCA is fitted with a new, more powerful engine we will take the next step of operating from an aircraft carrier."
> 
> Meanwhile, a major shore-based test facility is coming up at INS Hansa, in Goa, which replicates an aircraft carrier deck on ground, complete with arrested recovery and a ski jump for take off. This facility, which is expected to be operational by October 2011, will be used for certifying the Naval LCA before actually flying off an aircraft carrier. This will also be used for pilots training and for training maintenance crews.



This is was done just one month ago. every time we look overseas does not mean failure domestically.


----------



## gogbot

I was just doing a little light reading.

and look at what i found out.



> The French forces were expected to order 294 Rafales: 234 for the Air Force and 60 for the Navy. *To date 120 Rafales have been officially ordered.* These are being delivered in three separate batches, the most recent being the December 2004 order for 59 Rafales.



The MMRCA deal is in facts the largest order for the Rafael, Dassault has ever received.

They have to be willing to offer more incentives down the line.

They have already given Full TOT even AESA source codes.
SCHEMA ha offered to help finish the Kaveri engine and then install it in the Rafael

Who knows what else they may do to try and seal the deal.


----------



## sancho

vnomad said:


> Far from it. EADS isn't going to support the Dassault bid anymore than Boeing is going to pitch for the F-16.


It is already with combined deals of EADS (Eurocopter) and Dassault (Rafale) in Brazil and as I said, the French Gov directly is a shareholder of EADS, so no doubt about support for me. 


vnomad said:


> I think we've strayed from the original line of debate. My original assertion was that politically France(along with Sweden) was the worst choice, yielding little benefit.


France is a veto power in the UN, just like US, Russsia, or Britain and one of the leading countries in the EU. So it is not comparable to Sweden, the only problem is that France already supports India. That's why I said, F18SH for IAF would mainly be a political decision, to get the US on our side for a permanent UN seat. 


vnomad said:


> Well from Brazilian point of view Gripen and SH are pretty competitive offers. And a complete ToT isn't feasible for a production run of only two squadrons worth.


It's not only for the speculated 36 fighter, the real need of Brazilian air force is nearly equal to the MMRCA tender around 100 fighters. That's why so much ToT and other benefits are in the game, even from Boeing.


vnomad said:


> Well one could argue on the same lines that offering India a place in the four nation EF consortium is a lost advantage to Dassault. It doesn't really work that way though.


EADS already said that India can't be an equal partner, but could be a partner in production of avionics. That of course is still a point for EF, because it means more experience for our industry, new contracts and new jobs in India. Boeing offered similar things with production of of some F18SH parts in India, but these are not really equal to a real partnership, or even a co-development, because Brazil (or India) will benefit way more like that, than with producing minor parts of a fighter.


vnomad said:


> Upgrading the Mirage-2000 is very important. While no longer cutting edge, its still a very fine aircraft, and in view of the IAF's threat perceptions, its got a lot of potential unlike ... the MiG-21M/MF or the MiG-27.


True, but technically it will be inferior to LCA MK2 and the upg per fighter cost more than buying a new LCA MK2.


vnomad said:


> It replaced the aging Sea Eagle AShM on the Jaguar.


Has it? I know that there was a RFP issued and Harpoon and Exocet are the contenders, but never heared that they bought it. 


vnomad said:


> And this does not apply to the Rafale because ......


Because the Rafale is not primarily a stealth air superiority fighter! F22 techs like stealth, supercruise, TVC, long range radar are nearly useless in Afghanistan and you don't need a $300 million dollar fighter, if F15s and F18s can to the same too. 
The only need for fighters their are for strike missions and because the Rafale can do this kind of missions now it is there and EF is not. 


vnomad said:


> Like I mentioned before the Eurofighter starting with block 15 of Tranche 2 can employ the Storm Shadow, AGM-88 HARM, ALARM, Taurus, Brimstone, JDAMs and Paveway IV.


And as I told you that is not correct, most of it only in testing stage.


vnomad said:


> Please check your information again. The Captor AESA radar under the CECAR program made its first flight on the Eurofighter in mid 2007. In contrast, the flight testing of the RBE2 AA started in April _this_ year.


CESAR was only a tech demonstrator of the coming Captor E which is not developed now! Even the Gripen NG Demonstrator had a AESA tech demonstrator for a long time, but now they made the first flight of the new Selsex AESA radar. As you can see, the EF is even behind the Gripen NG in this field and as long Italy is against the AESA development, it will be more delayed.
About RBE 2 AESA:


> Thales launched the development of an AESA derivative for the Rafale in 1997, the program began developmental testing with Rafale aircraft in 2003 and 2004.



AESA for the RAFALE

That's 3 years before the Cesar tech demonstrator made its first flight in the nose of a test aircraft.


vnomad said:


> Also, they brought the AESA for trials because the RBE2 PESA is very easily outperformed by every other production(existing) radar in the competition(except perhaps the PS05/A on the Gripen).


As simple as it is, they brought AESA to the trials, because the competiton is for fighters with AESA radars and they have their radar ready! 


vnomad said:


> also the issues that seem to be delaying the Captor are to do with production rather than development. In the event that India orders the EF, it will be delivered with an AESA.


Even Euro Radar officials has stated, if the final decision about the Captor-E won't be taken till dec, it will be more than difficult to have the radar ready for export customers like India and that the first versions for the consortium members could only be ready by 2013. 
That's why I said, the EF is a great fighter, but way too delayed in development that IAF can't take the risk and pay such high costs. Rafale instead is more mature now and offers good performance in all roles where IAF needs it. It might be inferior to EF in air superiority missions, but for this role IAF already has MKI and is developing FGFA.


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## SU-57E

with rafale there is only one problem ...the same upgradation just like mirage...
however i still believe if everything is sorted out in eurofighter like its radar then it is the best bet ... however as i said before ideal situation would be to divide the vendors.....
120- EF
~100- F/A-18


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## Jako

Two platforms isnt really a good choice....because bulk of the jets would be home made.....and building infrastructure for two different fighter's making with tot will be time consuming and will burn our pocket deep that way!

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## Chanakyaa

The New Deal of +40 ACs will definately make companies rethink.
Its a win win situation for All Sides.

The Companies will get a huge Cash even in recession era as of now, and will get even more for spares and future support.

IN will have a Cheaper buy, IAF can go for even better arm twisting and negotations and get what they really want.

IMO, since im a big Rafale Fan..
if we are going for 240 ACS we should have...

124-200 - SH18 [ for IAF ]
40 - Rafale [ for IN ]
[ So ONE platform for Each Arm ]

Rafale being similar to Mirage will NOT cost much for the Inra development and getting all set new structure for SH.. that too 200 in Nos. is okey. 

Though i think its wise to go for ONE A/C .. less head ache ..
But Then 2 A/Cs from Two countries means good... Politically.

Mig 35.. No value as FGFA is in pipeline and They both will arrive at the same time as Mig has already indicated delays.

Gripen .No.. LCA MK II is preferable. even if its Late. Cheap and Indegenious.

EF . The Best ,, But is Uneconomical both Money wise and Politically.

So Its SH18 or Rafale or Both.


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## SU-57E

with eurofighter advantage is that germany has decided to cut back its need and to export 37 aircrafts... so there is a chance that we can have those in very less duration...


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## gogbot

XiNiX said:


> The New Deal of +40 ACs will definately make companies rethink.
> Its a win win situation for All Sides.
> 
> The Companies will get a huge Cash even in recession era as of now, and will get even more for spares and future support.
> 
> IN will have a Cheaper buy, IAF can go for even better arm twisting and negotations and get what they really want.
> 
> IMO, since im a big Rafale Fan..
> if we are going for 240 ACS we should have...
> 
> 124-200 - SH18 [ for IAF ]
> 40 - Rafale [ for IN ]
> [ So ONE platform for Each Arm ]
> 
> So Its SH18 or Rafale or Both.


 
Economies of scale wont apply if its two different platofrms.

The IN is only issuing he RFI so that it can get cheaper sot planes. from the MMRCA winner.


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## vnomad

sancho said:


> It is already with combined deals of EADS (Eurocopter) and Dassault (Rafale) in Brazil and as I said, the French Gov directly is a shareholder of EADS, so no doubt about support for me.



Well since France is a major part of EADS, I suppose they would support Eurofighter's bid.



> France is a veto power in the UN, just like US, Russsia, or Britain and one of the leading countries in the EU. So it is not comparable to Sweden, the only problem is that France already supports India.



France supports everyone. Point is how would an Indian order change the status quo of relations; it wouldn't. India can't expect any strategic decisions(esp. with regard to arms exports) by France, that would improve/support India's position in South Asia. If it weren't for US pressure, China would have been fielding well over 126 Rafales in the PLAAF.



> That's why I said, F18SH for IAF would mainly be a political decision, to get the US on our side for a permanent UN seat.



Well permanent seat with a veto isn't going to happen(not with four nations in the running), and truth be told its no longer all that important in the post cold war world. 

Going with the US makes sense on a strategic level because it is ideologically close to India and shares similar concerns vis-a-vis China. 



> It's not only for the speculated 36 fighter, the real need of Brazilian air force is nearly equal to the MMRCA tender around 100 fighters. That's why so much ToT and other benefits are in the game, even from Boeing.



Need aside, AFAIK the stated intent has been for the purchase of 36 aircraft.



> EADS already said that India can't be an equal partner, but could be a partner in production of avionics.



Depends on what you mean by equal partner. India gets full ToT plus a share in manufacturing. I'm pretty sure if the DRDO would like to participate in the further development cycle of the aircraft, the EF consortium would probably be amenable to that. 



> True, but technically it will be inferior to LCA MK2 and the upg per fighter cost more than buying a new LCA MK2.



The Tejas MkII from all indications so far, isn't likely to enter service till after 2015. In any case, the Israelis have offered to upgrade the Mirage-2000 for half the cost of the French proposal.



> Has it? I know that there was a RFP issued and Harpoon and Exocet are the contenders, but never heared that they bought it.



Harpoon Block II; August-Sept. last year.



> Because the Rafale is not primarily a stealth air superiority fighter! F22 techs like stealth, supercruise, TVC, long range radar are nearly useless in Afghanistan and you don't need a $300 million dollar fighter, if F15s and F18s can to the same too.



That applies to the Eurofighter as well. The RAF's present contingent of Harriers and Tornado doesn't need any increments. Its not like EF are deployed only in Europe(they've been deployed in Falklands for example).



> The only need for fighters their are for strike missions and because the Rafale can do this kind of missions now it is there and EF is not.



Like I mentioned before the F-22 in a strike role is as good as any fighter including the Rafale, yet its not deployed in Afghanistan. 



> And as I told you that is not correct, most of it only in testing stage.



You mentioned Tranche 2 in general. I specifying the block(the last one AFAIK) of Tranche 2 which included the upgrade required to employ all the weapons I mentioned.

By 'most of it' specifically what munitions are you referring to? 



> CESAR was only a tech demonstrator of the coming Captor E which is not developed now!



The Captor E is the designation it will be operationalize under. The CAESAR 'demonstrator' designation is simply because the AMSAR program was still in the works the CECAR program being an alternative. The primary technological challenge of mastering MMIC technology and overcoming cooling problems has been proven. The CAESAR is a _working_ AESA on the EF, functionally no different than the RBE2 AA trialled. And the program is still under development, again no different than the RBE and Selex AESAs. 



> Even the Gripen NG Demonstrator had a AESA tech demonstrator for a long time, but now they made the first flight of the new Selsex AESA radar. As you can see, the EF is even behind the Gripen NG in this field and as long Italy is against the AESA development, it will be more delayed.



Italy isn't against the AESA development, it has production issues with the Tranche 3, since its already getting an AESA equipped F-35. The focal point is that the IAF if it were to order the EF, would get a version equipped with the Captor E(as specified by the EF bid).



> That's 3 years before the Cesar tech demonstrator made its first flight in the nose of a test aircraft.



Ground tests yes, but the first _flight_ test took place in 2009.



> As simple as it is, they brought AESA to the trials, because the competiton is for fighters with AESA radars and they have their radar ready!



Its ready now, but will it enter service in the AdA only in 2012?



> Even Euro Radar officials has stated, if the final decision about the Captor-E won't be taken till dec, it will be more than difficult to have the radar ready for export customers like India and that the first versions for the consortium members could only be ready by 2013.



Assuming its all accurate, that roughly about a year after the RBE2 AA enters service and about the same time as India's first batch of fighters is due. I don't see a problem. Seeing as the Captor-E will field 1400+ T/R modules as opposed to 1000+ on the Rafale and will probably(judging from what I've read) field GaN modules before the French do.



> That's why I said, the EF is a great fighter, but way too delayed in development that IAF can't take the risk and pay such high costs. Rafale instead is more mature now and offers good performance in all roles where IAF needs it. It might be inferior to EF in air superiority missions, but for this role IAF already has MKI and is developing FGFA.



Well the only disadvantage in a strike role that the EF has vis-a-vis the Rafale, is that it relies on an external Litening pod for target designation. It will comfortably supplement the Jaguar, that will remain in service till 2030-40.


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## brahmastra

The Indian Navy has issued an RFI for 40 naval aircraft (read Yahoo), which unfortunately as per guidelines issued earlier is not available on the internet, so we are restricted in distributing it. Our sources indicate that the Navy may just be looking around for information and may only put in a follow on order with the MMRCA winner, if they have a suitable offering. This may be great news for Boeing's Super Hornet, Dassault's Rafale and bad news for Saab's Gripen and Lockheed's F-16.


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## sancho

vnomad said:


> Well since France is a major part of EADS, I suppose they would support Eurofighter's bid.


By the fact that no other French companies are involved in EF, it should be clear that the Dassault bid is way more beneficial for the country and where their focus is.
Btw, just think about how good the EF would be, if France still would be in the project! EF with FSO, Spectra EWS, AASM an european bomb kit, less funding problems. One more reason why I hope for a French  German co-development after EF and Rafale with combined power of EADS and Dassault and other German and French companies.


vnomad said:


> France supports everyone. Point is how would an Indian order change the status quo of relations; it wouldn't. India can't expect any strategic decisions(esp. with regard to arms exports) by France, that would improve/support India's position in South Asia. If it weren't for US pressure, China would have been fielding well over 126 Rafales in the PLAAF.


First of all, are the other countries not selling everyone? Russia sells arms to China and engines to Pakistan. US is a prime supporter of Pakistan and only turns to us, because of more money to earn and India as a counter weight against China. Even our number 1 weapon supplier Israel, sold several techs and weapons to China and even our Phalcon AWACS was originally sold to them before US vetoed. 
We can't stop anybody to sell arms, or techs to Pakistan, or China, the point for us is, as long as we get the better stuff and the better deals that brings more advantages, we can live with it!
Secondly, France can even be a bigger and better arms supplier for us than Israel, because they can offer us way more different techs that Israel can't. Fighters, helicopters, ships including carriers, subs, also space and civil nuclear techs. There should be no doubt about the stratigic benefit of France as a long term partner of India.


vnomad said:


> Depends on what you mean by equal partner. India gets full ToT plus a share in manufacturing. I'm pretty sure if the DRDO would like to participate in the further development cycle of the aircraft, the EF consortium would probably be amenable to that.


Full ToT is only proposed by France and Russia and equal partner means that India should have some amount of incluence to guide the project (or future developments of it) in directions that are important for us. But that's not gonna happen, because 1 we wasn't in from the start and 2 we only get a minor part of production. In short term it might get our companies some deals and some more experience, but we should take the chance and see MMRCA as a key to future co-developlents and long term stratigic advantages! 
And in Europe, I see only France to be politically, militarily and financially powerful enough to be such a long term partner for India . 


vnomad said:


> In any case, the Israelis have offered to upgrade the Mirage-2000 for half the cost of the French proposal.


But for what? Most likely for radar and avionics, but they can't upgrade the airframes, or the engines right? So if we want to upgrade them, we have to go to France. 

Regarding EF, Check this site please:

Eurofighter Typhoon

It is in german, but I think you won't have a problem to see that only the RAF EFs hardly gets some a2g capability with the integration of litening targeting pod and older Paveway 2 bombs, what is not even better than IAF Mirage 2000. As far as I know only a few of RAF EFs get such a targeting pod so far, which also is a reason why they are not deployed in Afghanistan. In comparison, RAF Harrier and Tornados have Paveway 4 operational now and using it there. This weapon is only in testing and integration stage for EF of Tranche 2 so far and might be operational somewhere next year. As you can see in the geplant für Tranche 2, Block 15 (2010 - 2013) EOC 2 part, weapons like Taurus, Storm Shadow and Brimstone are planed to be integrated till 2013, however because of delays in the development and the split into Tranche 3A and B it is not sure what exactly will be included in 3A. So a fully developed EF with all weapons and techs integrated, might only come from 2015 onwards. 

Italy say they don't need it, because they see EF only as an air superiority fighter and already working on F35 as the main strike fighter with next gen techs like AESA and stealth. That's why they are not really interested in funding AESA development and if even the consortium members have doubts that it will be ready in time, India as a export customer should be warned don't you think?

And now think about the IAF requirment! With upg MKI by 2014, long range Bars AESA radars and several AWACS aircrafts, is another mainly air superiority fighter with another long range radar, but less developed multi role capabilities for such high costs really what they need?

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## sancho

Maybe not the most important feature for IAF, but good if IN really is interested in Rafale:







Rafale M with 4 droptanks and a centerline buddy refueling pod


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## Chanakyaa

With a second crash of Su30 MKI, I think Indian Buyers wil think twice before they go for the Mig 35.
IMO, Mig 35 is Now Totally Out.

Its an Open war between Rafale and SH18.
See the Service of Mirage 2000s, Expensive but Durable.


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## vnomad

sancho said:


> By the fact that no other French companies are involved in EF, it should be clear that the Dassault bid is way more beneficial for the country and where their focus is.



That's exactly where their focus is. EF GmbH's pitch is a completely independent offer. With respect to getting them to pitch for the Rafale (why?), France has minimal influence with EADS Deutschland and EADS CASA.



> Btw, just think about how good the EF would be, if France still would be in the project! EF with FSO, Spectra EWS, AASM an european bomb kit, less funding problems.



Yes, but I guess it wasn't a bad decision in retrospect(except for France). France wanted to be the project leader, which wasn't acceptable to UK and Germany who wanted a more equitable distribution of work. Also, a naval Rafale didn't appeal to countries like the UK and Italy, since they were a part of the JSF project. Opting for the F-35 instead of the N-Eurofighter was a smart decision.



> One more reason why I hope for a French &#8211; German co-development after EF and Rafale with combined power of EADS and Dassault and other German and French companies.



Well France has stated its next fighter will be a co-development with Europe(including UK, Italy and Spain I'm guessing).



> First of all, are the other countries not selling everyone? Russia sells arms to China and engines to Pakistan. US is a prime supporter of Pakistan and only turns to us, because of more money to earn and India as a counter weight against China. Even our number 1 weapon supplier Israel, sold several techs and weapons to China and even our Phalcon AWACS was originally sold to them before US vetoed.
> We can't stop anybody to sell arms, or techs to Pakistan, or China, the point for us is, as long as we get the better stuff and the better deals that brings more advantages, we can live with it!



Difference is India can influence decisions made by Russia, UK/Germany and the US. US has held back from selling state of the art equipment(AESA particularly) to Pakistan, Russia has shifted to co-development with India as a priority(though it was primarily due to Chinese indigenization efforts) and India now has sufficient pull with Israel to make sure its security concerns are kept in mind. 

Within a year of finalizing a contract for six Scorpene-class subs with India, France was advocating a sale of Marlins to Pakistan, with emphasis on it being an improvement on the Scorpene. An Indian order for the Rafale wouldn't prevent the PAF(if it so wished), from purchasing it.



> Secondly, France can even be a bigger and better arms supplier for us than Israel, because they can offer us way more different techs that Israel can't. Fighters, helicopters, ships including carriers, subs, also space and civil nuclear techs. There should be no doubt about the stratigic benefit of France as a long term partner of India.



In matters of business yes, as an partner no. India and France's strategic aims don't coincide. As matter of fact, while it attempts to keep away from the US, I doubt if France has any clearly defined geopolitical aims outside of the EU(except for 'lets make money'). Israel and India have more common interests(besides just military sales) and its inevitable it will be far closer strategic partner than France.



> And in Europe, I see only France to be politically, militarily and financially powerful enough to be such a long term partner for India .



In my opinion the UK is a better partner and more importantly a more reliable partner. 



> But for what? Most likely for radar and avionics, but they can't upgrade the airframes, or the engines right? So if we want to upgrade them, we have to go to France.



True, and France could still be involved in the airframe(which is basically a lifetime extension) and engine upgrade. The avionics which form the core of the upgrade can be sourced from Israel. Ofcourse, it would have been a better option to get a comprehensive all French upgrade, but as things are..... well the outlook isn't promising. 

Regarding EF, Check this site please:

Eurofighter Typhoon



> It is in german, but I think you won't have a problem to see that only the RAF EFs hardly gets some a2g capability with the integration of litening targeting pod and older Paveway 2 bombs, what is not even better than IAF Mirage 2000. As far as I know only a few of RAF EFs get such a targeting pod so far, which also is a reason why they are not deployed in Afghanistan. In comparison, RAF Harrier and Tornados have Paveway 4 operational now and using it there. This weapon is only in testing and integration stage for EF of Tranche 2 so far and might be operational somewhere next year. As you can see in the geplant f&#252;r Tranche 2, Block 15 (2010 - 2013) EOC 2 part, weapons like Taurus, Storm Shadow and Brimstone are planed to be integrated till 2013, however because of delays in the development and the split into Tranche 3A and B it is not sure what exactly will be included in 3A. So a fully developed EF with all weapons and techs integrated, might only come from 2015 onwards.



Tranche 3 aside, I see nothing in the development schedule that is an unfavorable prospect from India's perspective. From your link: Employment of JDAMs and Paveway IV has been included since 2007, the Litening pod has been integrated and the Brimstone, Storm Shadow and Taurus will be available in a few months time. None of which should be a worry for the IAF which will receive its first batch by earliest 2012(more likely 2013).



> Italy say they don't need it, because they see EF only as an air superiority fighter and already working on F35 as the main strike fighter with next gen techs like AESA and stealth. That's why they are not really interested in funding AESA development and if even the consortium members have doubts that it will be ready in time, India as a export customer should be warned don't you think?



The current AESA development has been funded by the industry(AFAIK), hasn't suffered any significant delays(that I know of) and is a part of EF's pitch for the IAF's contract. I don't think India needs to be very concerned.



> And now think about the IAF requirment! With upg MKI by 2014, long range Bars AESA radars and several AWACS aircrafts, is another mainly air superiority fighter with another long range radar, but less developed multi role capabilities for such high costs really what they need?



Well the MKI has a very robust air-to-ground capability, and a payload that exceeds every other aircraft in the world(incl. the F-22). Also, India still has dedicated strike aircraft in the MiG-27(till 2015) and Jaguar(for a long long time). And finally, the Eurofighter if and when it enters service in the IAF, will have an air-to-ground capability comparable to that of the Rafale. With respect to price, the Eurofighter and Rafale have almost the same fly away cost(for domestic orders).

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## sancho

vnomad said:


> That's exactly where their focus is. EF GmbH's pitch is a completely independent offer. With respect to getting them to pitch for the Rafale (why?), France has minimal influence with EADS Deutschland and EADS CASA.


Of course these parts of EADS won't help in Rafale development, but it should be clear that they will never block any sale of a common products like Eurocopter helicopters, or Airbus aircrafts, neither would France.


vnomad said:


> Yes, but I guess it wasn't a bad decision in retrospect(except for France). France wanted to be the project leader, which wasn't acceptable to UK and Germany who wanted a more equitable distribution of work. Also, a naval Rafale didn't appeal to countries like the UK and Italy, since they were a part of the JSF project. Opting for the F-35 instead of the N-Eurofighter was a smart decision.


Wrong! With France in the consortium, they would have way less funding problems, more independent a2g weapons. UK only went for F35, because developing N-EF alone was far too expensive for them, with France it would have been no problem.
Also with only one main fighter from Europe, the export chances against US fighters would have been way better. But it only shows the old stupid problems between those 2 countries, France wanted a EF with Snecma engine and UK is ready to take an inferior carrier config, just because they don't want to take Rafale M.
For all parties it was a clear disadvantage!


vnomad said:


> Well France has stated its next fighter will be a co-development with Europe(including UK, Italy and Spain I'm guessing).


How should that happen with UK and Italy already partners in F35 development? The only Countries left are Germany, Spain and Sweden. Spain has to take F35B for their carriers, Sweden is planing something own, if they will be able to sell Gripen NG, so only Germany could be left.


vnomad said:


> Difference is India can influence decisions made by Russia, UK/Germany and the US. US has held back from selling state of the art equipment(AESA particularly) to Pakistan, Russia has shifted to co-development with India as a priority(though it was primarily due to Chinese indigenization efforts) and India now has sufficient pull with Israel to make sure its security concerns are kept in mind.


Isn't Germany is selling state of the art AIP subs to PN? US couldn't sell AESA to PAF, because AESA upg for F16 is not ready so far (by 2016 countries like Korea, or Greece might get it), Russia is the only country we have some influence and mostly because they have no other option, but even they are selling to Pakistan. 


vnomad said:


> In my opinion the UK is a better partner and more importantly a more reliable partner.


You mean that UK that is nearly bankrupt, is only a lapdog of US foreign policy with no own political power and highly reliable in any terms on US? 


vnomad said:


> Tranche 3 aside, I see nothing in the development schedule that is an unfavorable prospect from India's perspective. From your link: Employment of JDAMs and Paveway IV has been included since 2007, the Litening pod has been integrated and the Brimstone, Storm Shadow and Taurus will be available in a few months time. None of which should be a worry for the IAF which will receive its first batch by earliest 2012(more likely 2013).



Again,


> Entwicklung abgeschlossen 6/2007 = *development finished: *
> Paveway II / GBU16 / GBU 10 and Rafael Lightning III Laser Designator Pod.
> All this only for RAF EFs!
> 
> geplant für Tranche 2, Block 10 (7/2007 - 2009/10)
> EOC 1 = development *planed*:
> Laser Designator Pod (not decided which type)
> Paveway IV (tested by Spanish and German EFs this year, but still not integrated)
> GBU 32 JDAM (might come after paveway4 integration)
> 
> *Development unclear so far*:
> Paveway III
> ALARM
> TAURUS/ Storm Shadow
> Brimstone


In comparison, Rafale is already using Paveway II, III and the AASM (french JDAM) in Afghanistan, has Scalp integrated in 2004, also Exocet anti ship missile. These weapons are operational and tested in war missions, not only in tests and simulations. There is really no way you can't admit a clear advantage in development and integration of these weapons for Rafale! 



vnomad said:


> Well the MKI has a very robust air-to-ground capability, and a payload that exceeds every other aircraft in the world(incl. the F-22).


??? 8t payload, equal to F18SH, Rafale 9,5t. 


vnomad said:


> Also, India still has dedicated strike aircraft in the MiG-27(till 2015) and Jaguar(for a long long time). And finally, the Eurofighter if and when it enters service in the IAF, will have an air-to-ground capability comparable to that of the Rafale. With respect to price, the Eurofighter and Rafale have almost the same fly away cost(for domestic orders).


That's based on pure hope, but not on facts! Not a single IAF a2g fighter can compete with the any of the MMRCAs and I compared MKI and Mig 35 with Rafale before, if you search for that post you will see the advantages of Rafale in a2g. Rafale has anything for strikes ready now, EF has nearly anything of it only under development. In this field, it simply can't compete at the moment.

I am not saying Rafale is a perfect fighter, but it clearly suits IAF at best and give us the most benefits and future prospects to get rid of this unreliable buyer seller relationship!


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## Novice09

XiNiX said:


> With a second crash of Su30 MKI, I think Indian Buyers wil think twice before they go for the Mig 35.
> IMO, Mig 35 is Now Totally Out.
> 
> Its an Open war between Rafale and SH18.
> See the Service of Mirage 2000s, Expensive but Durable.



@XiNiX

I always advocate to chuck out MIG 35 and F16 from MRCA and competition should be between EF, SH, Rafale.

leave grippen and work on Tejas instead.


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## gogbot

Novice09 said:


> @XiNiX
> 
> I always advocate to chuck out MIG 35 and F16 from MRCA and competition should be between EF, SH, Rafale.
> 
> leave grippen and work on Tejas instead.



despite my own reservations. The Mig-35 is also a good deal, we get full TOT, Only plane to offer TV. 

But because we have such good offers from other nations, we usually Ignore it.

frankly all Single engine fighters should have been told to take a hike.

But India wants to scope out the f-16, and Griphen was only invited so it would not look suspicious.
My speculation anyway.

Mig is our fallback alternative. Kind our safety net.


Eurofighter offer's a good deal, and i was in-favor of it at the start, but when u think about it. you cant afford to wait for the Eurofighter to be ready. Plus getting the Eurofighter gets us nowhere with the Kaveri engine.


The race in fact is only between the Rafeal and Boeing. 
And frankly speaking. Given that Dassault offer's us full TOT plus AESA source code. and SCHEMA will also help us with the Kaveri Engine. 
the Rafael would be the best choice for IAF technologically and Performance wise.

But inlight of the US-India strategic ties, getting the F-18 can go a long way in increasing defense cooperation.


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## vnomad

sancho said:


> Of course these parts of EADS won't help in Rafale development, but it should be clear that they will never block any sale of a common products like Eurocopter helicopters, or Airbus aircrafts, neither would France.



Block?! That's pretty obvious. India can buy pretty much anything in the world as long as it is within international laws and norms and is non-Chinese. I'm not sure where the question of blocking comes in.



> Wrong! With France in the consortium, they would have way less funding problems, more independent a2g weapons.



From a British perspective: why all the emphasis on independent air-to-ground weapons?



> UK only went for F35, because developing N-EF alone was far too expensive for them, with France it would have been no problem.



Its the other way around. The Future European Fighter Aircraft program collapsed with UK, Germany and Italy leaving because France wanted _design leadership_ and wanted a _carrier capable_ version. UK had been in talks for quite a while with the US with regard to the Joint Advanced Strike Technology program(which on merger became the JSF program)



> Also with only one main fighter from Europe, the export chances against US fighters would have been way better. But it only shows the old stupid problems between those 2 countries, France wanted a EF with Snecma engine and UK is ready to take an inferior carrier config, just because they don't want to take Rafale For all parties it was a clear disadvantage!M.



Well why should Britain and Germany have ceded design leadership to France?

Also, 'inferior carrier config'?!! If the F-35 even approaches the F-22 in performance, its a far better option than the Rafale.



> How should that happen with UK and Italy already partners in F35 development? The only Countries left are Germany, Spain and Sweden. Spain has to take F35B for their carriers, Sweden is planing something own, if they will be able to sell Gripen NG, so only Germany could be left.



Well France can hope and pray can't it.  



> But unless Europeans can cooperate and move away from domestic champions, they will suffer in the race to supply the next generation of fighters, said Mr. Kogan from the Vienna-based institute.
> 
> Dassault appears to be thinking along the same lines. Eric Trappier, executive vice president at Dassault Aviation, said that Rafales successor will probably be designed through a European cooperation, from 2025.
> Westchester NY





> Isn't Germany is selling state of the art AIP subs to PN?



True, but then India's purchase of the U-209s happened over two decades ago. 



> US couldn't sell AESA to PAF, because AESA upg for F16 is not ready so far (by 2016 countries like Korea, or Greece might get it),



Not for the MLUs certainly, but the AN/APG-80 was available for the new build block 52+.



> Russia is the only country we have some influence and mostly because they have no other option, but even they are selling to Pakistan.


 
Well they were bound under contractual obligations to supply the RD-93.



> You mean that UK that is nearly bankrupt, is only a lapdog of US foreign policy with no own political power and highly reliable in any terms on US?



Britain didn't toe the US line in 1998 and refrained from sanctions against India(though it did criticize them). Even when Indian relations with the US were at its worst, India had pretty cordial relations with the UK. 

With respect to national policy, its true France doesn't follow anyone least of all the US. It prefers to do nothing at all, about anything and everything.



> Again,
> 
> In comparison, Rafale is already using Paveway II, III and the AASM (french JDAM) in Afghanistan, has Scalp integrated in 2004, also Exocet anti ship missile. These weapons are operational and tested in war missions, not only in tests and simulations.



They're not flying against any air defence or ECM. Getting these weapons 'validated' in Afghanistan isn't much of an improvement over validating them at test ranges back home.

In either case, the weapons onboard the Typhoon namely the JDAM, Paveways and Brimstone are operational and in the case of the first two, have been tested in war missions.



> There is really no way you can't admit a clear advantage in development and integration of these weapons for Rafale!



Well for what its worth, Rafale did integrate them before the Eurofighter, so kudos I guess. Shouldn't have a bearing on the MMRCA competition though.



> ??? 8t payload, equal to F18SH, Rafale 9,5t.



I'm sorry I should've been clearer. Not higher payload in absolute terms ofcourse. At extended ranges, the MKI's massive fuel capacity allows it to carry more, for a longer distance and faster(the pilot can afford to be less stingy with the afterburner).



> That's based on pure hope, but not on facts! Not a single IAF a2g fighter can compete with the any of the MMRCAs



Its not question of competing with them. Its about getting the job done. With dedicated strike aircraft available, the MMRCA can afford to be used for air superiority, air patrol and interception missions.



> and I compared MKI and Mig 35 with Rafale before, if you search for that post you will see the advantages of Rafale in a2g.



Haven't seen it, but I can guess. Higher maximum payload and better air-to-ground munitions. But, then again better is a question of degrees. The F-22 is better at A2G than the F-16, but its still not replacing the F-16 in Afghanistan.

The point I'm trying to make is that the IAF _isn't_ hampered by limited strike capacity while having a good air superiority potential. It is a quite well balanced force, and whichever aircraft wins the MMRCA contract will be expected to do both.



> Rafale has anything for strikes ready now



Well fortunately India isn't ordering the aircraft _now_.



> , EF has nearly anything of it only under development. In this field, it simply can't compete at the moment.



The weapons aren't under development, its the integration that hasn't been achieved. And that's for the Taurus(which India wouldn't be getting I'm guessing) and the Storm Shadow. That'll be done next year.


----------



## sancho

vnomad said:


> Block?! That's pretty obvious. India can buy pretty much anything in the world as long as it is within international laws and norms and is non-Chinese. I'm not sure where the question of blocking comes in.


We already saw blockings in MMRCA! France blocked their AESA techs for Gripen NG, US blocked Israeli AESA co-development for Gripen, because they use US techs too (that's could be an issue on Eltas 2052 for Tejas too btw!). But my point was, Germany wouldn't block any combined airbus sales with Rafale, aswell as France wouldn't if EF is combined with Eurocopter. 
They went for different fighter developments, but still sell mainly the same arms.


vnomad said:


> From a British perspective: why all the emphasis on independent air-to-ground weapons?


To be self-reliant, or to use techs that was developed in britain too. Isn't that also the reason why Britain developed and uses ASRAAM, instead of AIM9, or ALARM instead of HARM? Metor will phase out AMRAAM and the Europeans already have several cruise missiles and are not limited to US weapons. 


vnomad said:


> Well why should Britain and Germany have ceded design leadership to France?


As far as I know the main issue was the engine.


vnomad said:


> Also, 'inferior carrier config'?!! If the F-35 even approaches the F-22 in performance, its a far better option than the Rafale.


Carrier config, skijump vs. catobar! They evaluated different configs and mainly for EF and even for Rafale, befor they decided to go for F35. That's why I said, if France didn't leave the consortium, they would have developed a N-EF jointly, just like they develop the new carrier jointly. 
Btw UK will use F35B on their carriers, which is less capable than the C version and only a2a , or small a2g weapons can be carried internally so far. Harpoon, or cruise missiles must be carrierd externally, what makes the F35 not so stealthy anymore and more comparable to Rafale again. 


vnomad said:


> Not for the MLUs certainly, but the AN/APG-80 was available for the new build block 52+.


For UAE, who payed for the development and integration, not for PAF. 
Also only derivates will be available to retrofit F16:


> The South Korean air force will likely issue a request for proposals in 2010 or early 2011 for an active, electronically scanned array (AESA) radar for its F&#8209;16C/D aircraft. The air force has around 40 Block 32 aircraft and 140 Block 52-standard aircraft....
> ...Either country could make the first selection between Northrop Grummans SABR, which is a derivative of the APG&#8209;80 in the F-16E/F, and the Raytheon RACR, which has been developed from the APG-79 fitted to the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet.


AESA Radar Competition For S. Korean F-16s | AVIATION WEEK

US not rejected AESA for PAF, there simply wasn't one availble. Moreover, I think they will offer PAF the same new CFTs with refueling probe, that they offered with F16IN. It is already stated that this new tech is nothing exclusive for IAF, but can be available for other F16 customers too. PAF has ordered IL78 tankers that will be compatible to these system and getting these CFTs will be cheaper than buying totally new tankers just for the F16s. 


vnomad said:


> Britain didn't toe the US line in 1998 and refrained from sanctions against India(though it did criticize them). Even when Indian relations with the US were at its worst, India had pretty cordial relations with the UK.


Could be wrong, but aren't our Sea Harriers and Sea Kings in such a bad shape, because we didn't get the spares from UK? 


vnomad said:


> They're not flying against any air defence or ECM. Getting these weapons 'validated' in Afghanistan isn't much of an improvement over validating them at test ranges back home.
> 
> In either case, the weapons onboard the Typhoon namely the JDAM, Paveways and Brimstone are operational and in the case of the first two, have been tested in war missions.


So the confidence of having a war proven platform and weapons (what btw is one of the main advantages of US fighters) means nothing to you?


vnomad said:


> Well for what its worth, Rafale did integrate them before the Eurofighter, so kudos I guess. Shouldn't have a bearing on the MMRCA competition though.


As I said before, IAF can't wait till their new high tech and costly toy will be ready in all capabilities. They need a ready and proven fighter, that could be in service as soon as possible, to reduce the sqadron shortage, and new threats like J10, so any risk of delays must be a big disadvantage in MMRCA. 


vnomad said:


> I'm sorry I should've been clearer. Not higher payload in absolute terms ofcourse. At extended ranges, the MKI's massive fuel capacity allows it to carry more, for a longer distance and faster(the pilot can afford to be less stingy with the afterburner).


That's right of course in the field of long range and heavy weapons MKI will remain the best.


vnomad said:


> The point I'm trying to make is that the IAF _isn't_ hampered by limited strike capacity while having a good air superiority potential. It is a quite well balanced force, and whichever aircraft wins the MMRCA contract will be expected to do both.


IAF might have a balanced a2a and a2g fleet at the moment, but most of them will be phased out soon. Only 40 Mig 27 will remain in service, all Mig 21 M/MF will be phased out in nearly 2 years. The number Jags that will be upg is not decided so far and even if, how comparable will their performance be against actual multi role fighters and ground threats?
On the other side, with over 200 Flankers, all Mig 29 to be upg and FGFA under development, IAF already had done their work for air superiority. That means MMRCA must add capabilities in the a2g role, especially with good western a2g weapons. 
Again that makes Rafale and F18SH to frontrunners! 


vnomad said:


> The weapons aren't under development, its the integration that hasn't been achieved. And that's for the Taurus(which India wouldn't be getting I'm guessing) and the Storm Shadow. That'll be done next year.


That's right, it's still the fighter


----------



## vnomad

sancho said:


> We already saw blockings in MMRCA! France blocked their AESA techs for Gripen NG, US blocked Israeli AESA co-development for Gripen, because they use US techs too (that's could be an issue on Eltas 2052 for Tejas too btw!). But my point was, Germany wouldn't block any combined airbus sales with Rafale, aswell as France wouldn't if EF is combined with Eurocopter.
> They went for different fighter developments, but still sell mainly the same arms.



Well the MMRCA contract is for 126 aircraft and in the interests of fairness I pretty sure the contract doesn't admit modification of terms of procurement.

In any case, _if_ theoretically it was possible to club the sale of the Rafale with Eurocopter or the like, then the very same would have been possible for the Eurofighter as well. Which means the Rafale wouldn't have any relative advantage.



> To be self-reliant, or to use techs that was developed in britain too. Isn't that also the reason why Britain developed and uses ASRAAM, instead of AIM9, or ALARM instead of HARM? Metor will phase out AMRAAM and the Europeans already have several cruise missiles and are not limited to US weapons.



Well domestically produced is an advantage, but it doesn't have to over-emphasized, especially in the case of NATO militaries. Having more independent air-to-ground weapons isn't a valid reason for pursuing a course that was unacceptable to not just the UK but Germany and Italy as well.



> As far as I know the main issue was the engine.



Nope. The engine development was just one facet of the FEFA program. If the French were so adamant on not joining a Eurojet program with Rolls Royce, Fiat and Avio they could have integrated an independent Snecma engine into French produced aircraft while still being a part of the overall project.

The main hurdle was France's insistence on design and development leadership and on the inclusion of a carrier capable version.



> Carrier config, skijump vs. catobar! They evaluated different configs and mainly for EF and even for Rafale, befor they decided to go for F35. That's why I said, if France didn't leave the consortium, they would have developed a N-EF jointly, just like they develop the new carrier jointly.



Well the ski-jump vs CATOBAR argument is only as relevant as the aircraft launched from it. That's the eventual kicker.



> Btw UK will use F35B on their carriers, which is less capable than the C version and only a2a , or small a2g weapons can be carried internally so far. Harpoon, or cruise missiles must be carrierd externally, what makes the F35 not so stealthy anymore and more comparable to Rafale again.



For a carrier-borne aircraft, air superiority is arguably the more important function. Providing air cover to the CBG as a priority, scores over supporting a marine invasion or conducting ground strike operations.

That said the F-35, even in a dirty configuration will still be much stealthier than the Rafale or Eurofighter. Also, it will only fly with external stores once allied forces have established air dominance(something the F-35 will do better than any other aircraft save the Raptor).



> For UAE, who payed for the development and integration, not for PAF.



Which just means that they get paid a royalty on further sales. 



> Could be wrong, but aren't our Sea Harriers and Sea Kings in such a bad shape, because we didn't get the spares from UK?



Haven't heard that one. AFAIK, they're in a decent shape given their age and the Harrier having one of the highest attrition rates in the world(USMC's crashed an airforce-worth of Harriers).



> So the confidence of having a war proven platform and weapons (what btw is one of the main advantages of US fighters) means nothing to you?



Well, the F-22 isn't proven in war, its still accepted as the best air superiority fighter in the world. Point I was trying to make is that the insurgency in Afghanistan is barely a war(in conventional terms). Except for the terrain there isn't anything that can't be accurate simulated back in France. The only advantage I can see is that its successfully being integrated into the coalition battlespace network in an active area. Then again, it was designed for that and they same verification could have been done in NATO exercises.




> As I said before, IAF can't wait till their new high tech and costly toy will be ready in all capabilities. They need a ready and proven fighter, that could be in service as soon as possible, to reduce the sqadron shortage, and new threats like J10, so any risk of delays must be a big disadvantage in MMRCA.



The Eurofighter will reach full A2G capability in a few months time, while the first delivery isn't expected for a few years yet. Not a worry at all. 

The Gripen NG and MiG-35 are still in the prototype stage, yet they're still under consideration. 



> IAF might have a balanced a2a and a2g fleet at the moment, but most of them will be phased out soon. Only 40 Mig 27 will remain in service, all Mig 21 M/MF will be phased out in nearly 2 years.



Well the MiG-21 is interceptor with the M/MF variant lacking a ground attack capability.



> The number Jags that will be upg is not decided so far and even if, how comparable will their performance be against actual multi role fighters and ground threats?



All of them will be/have been upgraded to DARIN II AFAIK. Well, it would have retired if it weren't intended to serve in wartime. 



> On the other side, with over 200 Flankers, all Mig 29 to be upg and FGFA under development, IAF already had done their work for air superiority.



True, but the Su-30MKI, while primarily an air-superiority fighter is designed to perform strike missions as well. With 270 of them, that's a lot of ordinance that can be lugged. Add to that the 52 multi-role Mirage-2000s and the MiG-29 which after its upgrade will be able to perform strike missions as well.



> That means MMRCA must add capabilities in the a2g role, especially with good western a2g weapons.
> Again that makes Rafale and F18SH to frontrunners!



Still like how do you reckon the Rafale is better than the Eurofighter at A2G and by what factor do you estimate its so?



> That's right, it's still the fighter



Well just because the EF units that will field the Storm Shadow are still under manufacture(not development) is not reason to conclude that the EF isn't a multi-role fighter yet.


----------



## Nishan_101

Hi can anyone tell me who will the winner according to the reports that are coming out and will it be more than 200MMRCA like 250.


----------



## sancho

vnomad said:


> Well domestically produced is an advantage, but it doesn't have to over-emphasized, especially in the case of NATO militaries. Having more independent air-to-ground weapons isn't a valid reason for pursuing a course that was unacceptable to not just the UK but Germany and Italy as well.


Just take a look at WAH Apache (RR engine instead of GE engine, european weapons instead of US, as well as european defense and comunication systems), or the trouble UK has to use their own parts in F35. It is obvious that they want less dependence on US and if such a close ally puts priority on it, we should think about it too. 


vnomad said:


> The main hurdle was France's insistence on design and development leadership and *on the inclusion of a carrier capable version*.


What shows that France was right, because at the end UK also wanted a N-EF, but couldn't efford it.


vnomad said:


> Well the ski-jump vs CATOBAR argument is only as relevant as the aircraft launched from it. That's the eventual kicker.


That's my point too, they are limited now to F35B which is the least capable of the F35 versions (less space internally, less internal fuel, so less range and starting via ski-jump means less MTOW). 
As I said with external ordinance the F35 will loose much of it's advantage. You only thought about striking land targets, with support of other land based fighters, but a carrier aircraft must defend it's carrier group against air targets, as well as against sea targets. So with Harpoon carrierd externally in sea control missions, it can be a different story and I have some doubts that there will be so much difference, that the costs still will be worth it (Rafale $80 - 90 million, F35 $100 - 130 million).
However, for Indian carriers I prefer N-FGFA and N-UCAVs anyway! 


vnomad said:


> Haven't heard that one. AFAIK, they're in a decent shape given their age and the Harrier having one of the highest attrition rates in the world(USMC's crashed an airforce-worth of Harriers).





> Sanctions imposed by the Clinton Administration for India's May 1998 nuclear tests, *led to an acute shortage of critical spare parts for the Sea King fleet*. On 23 November 2000, in a parliamentary session in the Lok Sabha, Defence Minister George Fernandes stated in a written reply *that an acute shortage of critical spare parts had affected the operational efficacy of the Sea King fleet, with 60% of the helicopters grounded. Flights of the Sea King were cut down to a bare minimum and the SAR role taken over by the smaller, single-engined HAL Chetak helicopters.* The British Government continued with its efforts to press high level US authorities for flexibility, particularly in view of the Sea King's SAR role. On 19 January 2001, the Clinton Administration lifted the sanctions and the go-ahead was given for the sale of spare parts for the Sea King fleet.


Bharat-Rakshak.com :: NAVY - Westland Sea King

As you can see, even if they want something else, without US approval, UK can't do anything. So although UK is a veto power it won't give India any political benefit, because it is not independent and will only do, what US want's them to do. If US puts sanctions on India, EFs main a2g weapons will hardly be available and it's not only UK, ITA and even Germany won't go against US either.
Some might say with the new Indo-US relationship sanctions are unlikly, but with the experience of the past, we have to keep such things in mind if we go for an important and costly procurement like this! 


vnomad said:


> The Eurofighter will reach full A2G capability *in a few months time*, while the first delivery isn't expected for a few years yet. Not a worry at all.
> 
> 
> Still like how do you reckon the Rafale is better than the Eurofighter at A2G and by what factor do you estimate its so?


As I showed you that is simply not true, it still will take years till all a2g weapons are integrated and with 2 main members already going for F35 as their main strike fighter, I bet there will be more issues on funding and integration. 
Because although they look close in design, their intended roles was different! EF was aimed as an air superiority fighter against Russias Flankers, with added multi role capabilities. Rafale instead was designd from the beginning to be equally good in all roles, because it has to replace many different fighters types, in different roles, just like the JSF. 
Rafale might lack the speed and long range radar of EF (or MKI), but has still a better maneuverability than most other MMRCAs. In IAF is easily should take over the a2a roles of Mirage 2000 and even Mig 29.
In the ground attack role it has all weapons ready and proven, has the highest payload the most weapon stations and a good range (more than EF). Combined with a very low RCS and the Spectra EWS (which is claimed to be one of the best at the moment) its survivability was proven to be very good in several simulations (Red flag, tiger meet).
Of course MKI, M2K and upg Mig 29 are multi role fighters with strike capabilities and after air superiority is achieved they will do a good job in that role too. But try to send them cross border with their bigger RCSs against numbers of SAMs, fighters and the biggest problem, AWACS aircrafts. Exactly here the Rafale has a clear advantage and will give IAF a new capability to do preemtive strikes in highly protected areas. 


vnomad said:


> Well the MiG-21 is interceptor with the M/MF variant lacking a ground attack capability.


Not correct:


> MiG-21PFMA 'Fishbed-J' First model with ground attack capability, greater fuel capacity, improved radar, an internal 23-mm gun, and four underwing pylons instead of two
> MiG-21M or Type 96 Similar to the MiG-21PFMA and built under license in India


Aerospaceweb.org | Aircraft Museum - MiG-21 'Fishbed'

BR also count them as ground attack fighters:

Indian Air Force :: Aircraft Fleet Strength


vnomad said:


> All of them will be/have been upgraded to DARIN II AFAIK. Well, it would have retired if it weren't intended to serve in wartime.


Don't forget that most of them are old and need new engine and airframe upg, of course they are intended for war, but are old gen fighters with less performance than actual multi role fighters. They can't protect them selfs and will need escorts, unlike latest fighters. We can't replace the Migs and the Jags at the same time, that's why they were upg before, but with around 70 optional MMRCAs, not all of them must get DARIN III.
However, I hope that IAF will upg them all too, because it would give us time to develop a stealth UCAV. No doubt that these will be the strike platforms of the future and till then IAF could keep the Jags at the low end.


----------



## sancho

Nishan_101 said:


> Hi can anyone tell me who will the winner according to the reports that are coming out and will it be more than 200MMRCA like 250.


Trials are still going on, so no official front runner yet. The competition is for 126 fighters + aroun 70 optional. With FGFA coming and possible developments to MCA, or stealth UCAV, I doubt more than 200 are needed.


----------



## Nishan_101

sancho said:


> Trials are still going on, so no official front runner yet. The competition is for 126 fighters + aroun 70 optional. With FGFA coming and possible developments to MCA, or stealth UCAV, I doubt more than 200 are needed.



U r quite right i also think about that about 250 MMRCA would be needed in order to maintain credibility as LCA won't be as good as mention.and it willbe the frontline fighter coz of advanced avionics. 
can u tell me wats the cost of F-18's RAFAel and Tyfoon. and is really MiG-35 is out of this MMRCA due to lesss tech as compared to competitors.


----------



## Insane

I think we should announce a winner ASAP and save ourselves some time. It Clearly looks as if F/A-18 SH will be the winner. So why delay ? Just Order those birds right away. 

On the side issue of Engines GE engines are almost selected so to say. So just go ahead and finish this thing. No one is giving any damn about the time that can be saved.

I was also wondering why get only 18 planes in fly by condition.. why not 3 full squadrons. Local Manufacturing and Everything is alright but filling in numbers is also critical at this point of time. I Mean what difference it makes to absorption of technology if u build 60-70 planes rather than 100+ planes ?

Getting 54 planes and Manufacturing the rest locally seems a good idea to me. Can save at least 3-4 years on operational preparedness.


----------



## gogbot

Insane said:


> I think we should announce a winner ASAP and save ourselves some time. It Clearly looks as if F/A-18 SH will be the winner. So why delay ? Just Order those birds right away.
> 
> On the side issue of Engines GE engines are almost selected so to say. So just go ahead and finish this thing. No one is giving any damn about the time that can be saved.
> 
> I was also wondering why get only 18 planes in fly by condition.. why not 3 full squadrons. Local Manufacturing and Everything is alright but filling in numbers is also critical at this point of time. I Mean what difference it makes to absorption of technology if u build 60-70 planes rather than 100+ planes ?
> 
> Getting 54 planes and Manufacturing the rest locally seems a good idea to me. Can save at least 3-4 years on operational preparedness.



Now, now no need to be impatient 

There is policy and procedure to adhere to.

As well with every passing month the deals we are offered are getting better.

Plus IAF gets a chance to scope out the best aircraft in the world.
Including the F-16. In much detail.

Who knows what might happen tomorrow.
SAAB may decide to actually sell us the Griphen I mean the plane as a whole. *Very unlikely*. But non the less game changing.


----------



## sancho

Nishan_101 said:


> U r quite right i also think about that about 250 MMRCA would be needed in order to maintain credibility as LCA won't be as good as mention.and it willbe the frontline fighter coz of advanced avionics.
> can u tell me wats the cost of F-18's RAFAel and Tyfoon. and is really MiG-35 is out of this MMRCA due to lesss tech as compared to competitors.


You get me wrong, I said I doubt that there will be more MMRCAs, because the future is about 5. gen fighters and UCAVs. Producing those 108 MMRCAs under licence will take some time and by that FGFA and other 5. gen techs could be available.
Can't tell you correct prices of the fighters, because it always depend on how many are ordered and Mig 35 is not out, but might not have much chances after the latest reports of more than 250 crashed IAF Migs.


Insane said:


> I think we should announce a winner ASAP and save ourselves some time. It Clearly looks as if F/A-18 SH will be the winner. So why delay ? Just Order those birds right away.
> 
> On the side issue of Engines GE engines are almost selected so to say. So just go ahead and finish this thing. No one is giving any damn about the time that can be saved.
> 
> I was also wondering why get only 18 planes in fly by condition.. why not 3 full squadrons. Local Manufacturing and Everything is alright but filling in numbers is also critical at this point of time. I Mean what difference it makes to absorption of technology if u build 60-70 planes rather than 100+ planes ?
> 
> Getting 54 planes and Manufacturing the rest locally seems a good idea to me. Can save at least 3-4 years on operational preparedness.


You are forgetting some points, first of all with every fighter bought directly from a vendor, the cost rises and expensive fighters like F18SH, Rafale, EF could be too costly than. Not a single fighter could be produced for us at the moment, because most of them are still developing, or integrating techs and weapons that are proposed. F18SH IRST, F16 avionics, CFT, Rafale AESA and maybe a better engine, EF AESA, weapons, Gripen NG and Mig 35 nearly everything. So even if we speed up the decision, the first fighters still will need time till they could arrive here.


----------



## sancho

It's often said that the engine that will be taken for LCA,will also decide who will win MMRCA, because same engines means less costs. I agree that it means less costs, but one must keep in mind that neither EF, nor F18SH have any other commonality in actual IAF fleet and all weapons have to be purchased extra. Not to forget that their unit costs are with Rafale the highest too. So my question is, what is more cost-effective?
100 LCA MK2 with same engine as 126 F18SH, but no commonality to any other IAF fighter and high logistic costs? Or 100 LCA MK2 with EJ 200 engine + 126 Rafale with different engines, but with the fact Rafale can use the same weapons that are in use with (~50 fighters) Mirage 2k and (~120 fighters) Jags today and they can use the same Mica, AASM, Scalp, Exocet, ASRAAM, or ALARM after their upgrades that Rafale will use?


----------



## vnomad

sancho said:


> Just take a look at WAH Apache (RR engine instead of GE engine, european weapons instead of US, as well as european defense and comunication systems), or the trouble UK has to use their own parts in F35. It is obvious that they want less dependence on US and if such a close ally puts priority on it, we should think about it too.



Some friction always exists. India had/has similar problems with Russia with regard to the Brahmos. 

From India's perspective, UK or France; neither equates to indigenous production. 



> What shows that France was right, because at the end UK also wanted a N-EF, but couldn't efford it.



The naval-Eurofighter was only mooted as a negotiating tactic to get push the US to release certain F-35 codes. Which apparently worked, if one goes by recent reports. In any case, France wasn't going to get design leadership that it so desperately wanted, if the UK and Germany had anything to say about it.



> That's my point too, they are limited now to F35B which is the least capable of the F35 versions (less space internally, less internal fuel, so less range and starting via ski-jump means less MTOW).



True. But, the we're comparing with the Rafale here, not the F-35C.



> As I said with external ordinance the F35 will loose much of it's advantage.



It will still retain a significant stealth advantage over the Rafale.



> You only thought about striking land targets, with support of other land based fighters, but a carrier aircraft must defend it's carrier group against air targets, as well as against sea targets. So with Harpoon carrierd externally in sea control missions, it can be a different story and I have some doubts that there will be so much difference, that the costs still will be worth it (Rafale $80 - 90 million, F35 $100 - 130 million).



Its an absolute gem for the price its being marketed at. Unlike the Rafale, this was designed as a stealth aircraft from the outset; it one were to compare the RCS of both aircraft in a clean configuration, the F-35's would be far far lower than the Rafale's especially in a non-frontal aspect. With external stores its RCS would increase quite a bit, but so would the Rafale's.



> However, for Indian carriers I prefer N-FGFA and N-UCAVs anyway!



I don't have a lot of expectation from the FGFA as far as stealth goes. Annually, the US spends twice the entire Russian military budget on just R&D. The Russians will have to pull off a miracle to get something in the F-35's class in terms of stealth, munitions and avionics, let alone the F-22. Though, in other aspects like range, payload, agility and maneuverability, it will be as good as the Raptor, if not better.



> Bharat-Rakshak.com :: NAVY - Westland Sea King
> 
> As you can see, even if they want something else, without US approval, UK can't do anything.



The Westland Sea King is a license-produced version of the _American_ Sikorsky Sea King. Its not a British helicopter any more than the KC-30 is American.



> So although UK is a veto power it won't give India any political benefit, because it is not independent and will only do, what US want's them to do.



Fortunately, for us we've had good (and rapidly improving) relations with the US for quite a while now. France, hasn't helped India's position vis-a-vis Pakistan to date, and isn't likely to do so in the future. 



> If US puts sanctions on India, EFs main a2g weapons will hardly be available and it's not only UK, ITA and even Germany won't go against US either.



I think over $5 billion in high tech defence imports says US sanctions in the future aren't a worry. India today is very different from what it was ten years back, and its relations with the world including the US have also advanced in leaps and bounds.



> Some might say with the new Indo-US relationship sanctions are unlikly, but with the experience of the past, we have to keep such things in mind if we go for an important and costly procurement like this!



Too late for that now.

Britain and France have over five centuries of war behind them and they're cooperating intensively on defence today. I don't think what happened over ten years ago is going to repeat itself, _even_ in the event of a nuclear test(which isn't going to happen either). 



> As I showed you that is simply not true, it still will take years till all a2g weapons are integrated and with 2 main members already going for F35 as their main strike fighter, I bet there will be more issues on funding and integration.



Well I'm yet to see that conclusion. Even your link clearly showed that except for the Storm Shadow and Taurus, the EF that were coming off the production lines now were equipped to employ all the A2G munitions in service with the RAF and Luftwaffe. 

Why India's EFs(should they ever be ordered), which will enter service at the very least three years from now, will have a limited air-to-ground arsenal, requires clarification on your part.



> Because although they look close in design, their intended roles was different! EF was aimed as an air superiority fighter against Russias Flankers, with added multi role capabilities. Rafale instead was designd from the beginning to be equally good in all roles, because it has to replace many different fighters types, in different roles, just like the JSF.



The idea of dedicated interceptors, air superiority fighters, ground strike and close-support aircraft went out even before the cold war. 
While some aircraft(like the F-22) may excel at air-superiority, all of the latest fighters(4.5 gen) can act in a strike capacity. And this design philosophy was a part of the Eurofighter from the outset.



> Rafale might lack the speed and long range radar of EF (or MKI), but has still a better maneuverability than most other MMRCAs.



The Eurofighter is certainly the more agile of the two aircraft. As for maneuverability, the jury is still out on that one. 



> In IAF is easily should take over the a2a roles of Mirage 2000 and even Mig 29.



As should the Eurofighter.



> In the ground attack role it has all weapons ready and proven, has the highest payload the most weapon stations and a good range (more than EF).



True, it has that(albeit marginal) advantage over the Eurofighter.



> Combined with a very low RCS and the Spectra EWS (which is claimed to be one of the best at the moment) its survivability was proven to be very good in several simulations (Red flag, tiger meet).



Again, low RCS is one thing, lower RCS than the Eurofighter another. The only really revolutionary part about the Spectra was the active-cancellation technology which remains unproven(and IMO impractical against an AESA radar). 



> But try to send them cross border with their bigger RCSs against numbers of SAMs, fighters and the biggest problem, AWACS aircrafts. Exactly here the Rafale has a clear advantage and will give IAF a new capability to do preemtive strikes in highly protected areas.



Yes, well that goes for air superiority missions as well. In hostile air space, the MKIs larger RCS, against high concentration of enemy fighters and presence of AWACS is reason to purchase the EF too.



> Not correct:
> 
> Aerospaceweb.org | Aircraft Museum - MiG-21 'Fishbed'
> 
> BR also count them as ground attack fighters:
> 
> Indian Air Force :: Aircraft Fleet Strength



The MiG-21 was designed from the outset as an interceptor. It was wired to carry dumb bombs since the MiG-23 was still about four-five years away from commissioning. For all practical purposes, the MiG-21 served in the IAF as _only_ a point defence fighter. 



> Don't forget that most of them are old and need new engine and airframe upg, of course they are intended for war, but are old gen fighters with less performance than actual multi role fighters.



Two engines from Honeywell and Roll Royce are currently being evaluated to re-engine the Jaguar. The age of the airframe only effects the service life, performance as such during exercises and wartime will remain unaffected. In any case almost two squadrons of Jaguars have entered service after 2000, so they have new airframes that will probably last till 2025 at the very least. The DARIN-II upgrade completed just recently and allowed the Jaguar to remain relevant with regard to its contemporaries. 



> They can't protect them selfs and will need escorts, unlike latest fighters.



All strike aircraft entering hostile airspace will need escorts. Heavy A2G munitions carried(as well as the altitude profile) would negate the possibility of strike aircraft engaging the combat en route to the target.



> We can't replace the Migs and the Jags at the same time, that's why they were upg before, but with around 70 optional MMRCAs, not all of them must get DARIN III.



Depends on the service life left in the aircraft to judge the feasibility of an upgrade. The latest built Jaguars will certainly have enough left to go through another round of upgrades.


----------



## sancho

vnomad said:


> The Westland Sea King is a license-produced version of the _American_ Sikorsky Sea King. Its not a British helicopter any more than the KC-30 is American.


So? Didn't we bought them, the Harriers and the carrier from UK? What's the worth of such procurements if they must ask others to supply us with spares? 


vnomad said:


> Fortunately, for us we've had good (and rapidly improving) relations with the US for quite a while now. France, hasn't helped India's position vis-a-vis Pakistan to date, and isn't likely to do so in the future.


And US, the close ally of Pakistan did helped us against them? 
Please, don't get blinded of US, only because they are now ready to sell us some weapons. Russia and France was clearly more reliable in the past.
Btw, check this interview about the Russian vs. USN and RN in 1971 

Defunct Humanity: 1971. The War of Nerves in Bengal Bay

It's not so long ago that these countries sends their military against us, what does it say about their reliability?
I am not totally against US, but I think it's on them to prove us that they can be a reliable partner.


vnomad said:


> Well I'm yet to see that conclusion. Even your link clearly showed that except for the Storm Shadow and Taurus, the EF that were coming off the production lines now were equipped to employ all the A2G munitions in service with the RAF and Luftwaffe.
> 
> Why India's EFs(should they ever be ordered), which will enter service at the very least three years from now, will have a limited air-to-ground arsenal, requires clarification on your part.


Be able to deploy a2g weapons, doesn't mean anything till they are integrated. You still seems not to understand that the integration was *planed* several years ago, but take a look at the present stage of EF development!

- still only very limited a2g weapons are operational
- targeting pod only for RAF so far
- all member countries (except Spain) cuts their original orders because of funding problems
- further developments and upg are delayed because of funding problems
- 3 of the member countries use Tornado as the main strike aircraft and 2 of them will replace Tornado in roles with F35. So no need for them to waste money in the integration of a2g weapons on EF

France instead will replace their a2g fighters with Rafale, that's why they have to and already did integrate their a2g weapons. 
Everybody can claim that EF will carry that and this, but the above mentioned points makes it doubtful that all claimed weapons will also be integrated. Honestly I think the members are waiting for an export country to pay for it, Saudi Arabia, that will replace Tornados with EF for example.


vnomad said:


> The idea of dedicated interceptors, air superiority fighters, ground strike and close-support aircraft went out even before the cold war.
> While some aircraft(like the F-22) may excel at air-superiority, all of the latest fighters(4.5 gen) can act in a strike capacity. And this design philosophy was a part of the Eurofighter from the outset.


You are mistaken if you believe multi role means equally good in all roles. Some fighters will still be better in low level strike missions, some in high level dogfights. EF and F18SH for example are both multi role fighters, but with totally different aimed roles. Even F22 and F35 are different, that's why the one is for air superiority and the other is the Joint Strike Fighter! 


vnomad said:


> The Eurofighter is certainly the more agile of the two aircraft. As for maneuverability, the jury is still out on that one.


Nobody doubts that, the point was Rafale is possibly the second best in this field of all MMRCAs and IAF already has a super maneuverable fighter with MKI. So the second one in this field is more than enough and other capabilities are more important!


vnomad said:


> True, it has that(albeit marginal) advantage over the Eurofighter.


Finally you admit that it has an advantage  and as I said Rafale did impressed in this role in some simulations, with it's excellent avionics and weapons.


vnomad said:


> Yes, well that goes for air superiority missions as well. In hostile air space, the MKIs larger RCS, against high concentration of enemy fighters and presence of AWACS is reason to purchase the EF too.


Not exactly, because EF will only have lower RCS as an advantage, its long range radar won't, because we already have AWACS support, its super maneuverability won't, because MKI has it too, same for speed, long range weapons. Only for a lower RCS compared to MKI we don't have to buy EF, Gripen NG, or Rafale will use the same Meteor missiles and will have comparable RCS, but will be cheaper.
IAF showed good tactics with MKI guiding passive Bisons, with low RCS via datalink and I think they will use the same tactics when PAF gets AWACS support. They will hold MKIs back and use upg Mirage, LCA and MMRCA in passive modes, guided by MKI, or Phalcons.
Again we don't need the same advantages that MKI already offers, we need something that it doesn't offer. 
IMO low RCS, good precision strike capabilities, good IRST for passive target detection, good avionics and defense suits for survivability even in hostile air space. 


vnomad said:


> All strike aircraft entering hostile airspace will need escorts. Heavy A2G munitions carried(as well as the altitude profile) would negate the possibility of strike aircraft engaging the combat en route to the target.


Not true, Jags can only carry WVR missile (I think 2) for defense reasons, but multi role fighters can carry a2g payloads and several WVR and BVR missiles and don't need other escort fighters. Rafale for example can carry 6 AASM, 3 fuel tanks, 2 WVR and 4 BVR Micas.


----------



## vnomad

sancho said:


> So? Didn't we bought them, the Harriers and the carrier from UK? What's the worth of such procurements if they must ask others to supply us with spares?



We bought a custom built American aircraft. The 'others' in this case are the British.



> And US, the close ally of Pakistan did helped us against them?
> Please, don't get blinded of US, only because they are now ready to sell us some weapons.



Please ask Pakistanis how they view the close alliance with the US. 



> Russia and France was clearly more reliable in the past.



Russia yes, France hell no. France hasn't given a crap either way for 60 years. They don't distinguish between countries in South Asia(or anywhere else for that matter).



> Btw, check this interview about the Russian vs. USN and RN in 1971
> 
> Defunct Humanity: 1971. The War of Nerves in Bengal Bay
> 
> It's *not so long ago* that these countries sends their military against us, what does it say about their reliability?



Well, 39 years _is_ very long ago. 



> I am not totally against US, but I think it's on them to prove us that they can be a reliable partner.



Judging by the purchase of the P-8I, C-130J and very soon the C-17, the Indian government as well as the IAF seem to be satisfied as to the US's reliability.



> Be able to deploy a2g weapons, doesn't mean anything till they are integrated.



 It means the aircraft can employ them. What else is the weapon _supposed_ to do?



> You still seems not to understand that the integration was *planed* several years ago, but take a look at the present stage of EF development!



By all means take a look, the block 10 is in production, and employs JDAMs, ALARM, Paveway III & IV. The Storm Shadow and Brimstone will be integrated far far before the Indian deliveries are expected. 



> - still only very limited a2g weapons are operational



Like I mentioned above if India wanted the first deliveries immediately, the EF would have been lacking in the tank busting role. Fortunately, the deliveries aren't expected for another four years.



> - targeting pod only for RAF so far



That's the Luftwaffe's problem really. If the RAF EF's use them, the IAF EFs will do so too.



> - all member countries (except Spain) cuts their original orders because of funding problems



EF GmbH has already delivered over three times the number of aircraft Dassault has.



> - further developments and upg are delayed because of funding problems



Further upgrades are conceptual at this time and deal mainly with reducing the RCS and IR signature further and some tweaking of avionics.



> - 3 of the member countries use Tornado as the main strike aircraft and 2 of them will replace Tornado in roles with F35. So no need for them to waste money in the integration of a2g weapons on EF



The JSF program is not a recent development. It was kept in mind while planning the EF's development schedule which catered for an A2G role. The EF is intended to perform a multi-role task and the RAF will not like to presuppose that F-35s are always available for strikes.



> Everybody can claim that EF will carry that and this, but the above mentioned points makes it doubtful that all claimed weapons will also be integrated. Honestly I think the members are waiting for an export country to pay for it, Saudi Arabia, that will replace Tornados with EF for example.



Pay for what exactly? Specifically speaking how is the EF impaired in an A2G role.



> You are mistaken if you believe multi role means equally good in all roles.



It simply means it can perform both air and ground missions. With respect to ground missions incremental improvements in performance don't really translate into significant gains in wartime.



> Some fighters will still be better in low level strike missions, some in high level dogfights. EF and F18SH for example are both multi role fighters, but with totally different aimed roles.



One is built for CATOBAR operations and is optimized for carrier operations, the other isn't. Yeah true enough.



> Even F22 and F35 are different, that's why the one is for air superiority and the other is the Joint Strike Fighter!



If the USAF had the financial and political backing, they'd replace every F-35 order with the F-22 and still be able to perform all roles required more than ably.



> Nobody doubts that, the point was Rafale is possibly the second best in this field of all MMRCAs and IAF already has a super maneuverable fighter with MKI. So the second one in this field is more than enough and other capabilities are more important!



The EF still offers the best performance among its peers.



> Finally you admit that it has an advantage



It does, higher range and payload, but a typical load doesn't require 7.5 tons of payload(EF) let alone 9 tons(Rafale). And in the regional scenario with 6 refuelers available and more(Airbus MRTT) on their way, another 300 km of range is not a must.



> Not exactly, because EF will only have lower RCS as an advantage, its long range radar won't, because we already have AWACS support,



In hostile airspace AEW&C support can't be reckoned on.



> its super maneuverability won't, because MKI has it too, same for speed, long range weapons.



Its more agile than the MKI and faster too.



> Only for a lower RCS compared to MKI we don't have to buy EF, Gripen NG, or Rafale will use the same Meteor missiles and will have comparable RCS, but will be cheaper.



As of now, the Rafale and EF have the same flyaway cost.



> IMO low RCS, good precision strike capabilities, good IRST for passive target detection, good avionics and defense suits for survivability even in hostile air space.



All of which the EF offers.



> Not true, Jags can only carry WVR missile (I think 2) for defense reasons, but multi role fighters can carry a2g payloads and several WVR and BVR missiles and don't need other escort fighters. Rafale for example can carry 6 AASM, 3 fuel tanks, 2 WVR and 4 BVR Micas.



I believe the Rafale has 14 not 15 hardpoints. In any case in a strike role it will be hampered in speed, range and maneuverability and will typically carry a largely air-to-ground payload(with maybe an FLIR pod and laser designator). In any case, it will require fighter escorts.


----------



## sancho

vnomad said:


> Please ask Pakistanis how they view the close alliance with the US.


Not important, the point was US supported them for years and not us, even with military power against us (unlike France). To me that means they have to show us that they are reliable first.


vnomad said:


> Russia yes, France hell no. France hasn't given a crap either way for 60 years. They don't distinguish between countries in South Asia(or anywhere else for that matter).


Let's see, they gave us Mirage 2000, which is one of the best fighters in our fleet at the moment and didn't had the quality problems like Russian techs. They gave us Scorpene class subs, offered now Rafale with full ToT and source codes, something that no other country except Russia will offer. They cleared the nuclear deal right after Russia and provided us civil nuclear power plants. They support us for a permanent seat in the UNC, we already have co-developments in avionics and they offered a co-developed Kaveri-Snecma engine. But most important they were reliable during sanction times!



> France
> France has criticized India *but said it opposed US sanctions and will not apply its own. *
> (International Herald Tribune, 14 May 98)



CNS - World Reaction to the Indian Nuclear Tests

Looks like they sold and sell us state of the are arms, gives us the chance for co-developments, support us politically and in the civil nuclear field, so everything that Russia offers us too!
Can you name me another country that can offer us the same, especially co-developments and nuclear power?
MMRCA is the chance for us to get France even closer to us than ever before, on levels like we have with Russia and Isreal. 


vnomad said:


> Judging by the purchase of the P-8I, C-130J and very soon the C-17, the Indian government as well as the IAF seem to be satisfied as to the US's reliability.


Are they? Or do they only open the door for US arms with buying less important patrol and transport aircrafts in smaller numbers? MMRCA is a totally different thing and US have to come up with more, if they want to get a part of this market.


vnomad said:


> It means the aircraft can employ them. What else is the weapon _supposed_ to do?


You still didn't understand it, it means that the aircraft is wired to the use such weapons, but it still needs integration and testing of them. That exactly is what the members are doing with Paveway 4 at the moment:


> Further recently successful testing saw IPA 1, the UK owned Typhoon aircraft, commence a sequence of fifteen Paveway IV jettison drops. To date 3 successful drops have been performed. The trials see Paveway IVs dropped in a number of store configurations to ensure safe separation and verify that bombs do not interfere with their neighbours when released.



IPA 7 Paveway IV Trials


vnomad said:


> By all means take a look, the block 10 is in production, and employs JDAMs, ALARM, Paveway III & IV. The Storm Shadow and Brimstone will be integrated far far before the Indian deliveries are expected.





> geplant für Tranche 2, Block 10 (7/2007 - 2009/10)
> EOC 1
> IRIS-T (digital Modus) (BGT)
> Laser Designator Pod (Typ nicht spezifiziert)
> Paveway IV, MK 13/18 (UK)
> GBU 32 JDAM (Boeing)



This is Block 10, but only IRIS-T is integrated so far Paveway 3, ALARM, Brimstone and the cruise missiles will only come in Block 15, or even later in Tranche 3A. That's what I try to make you understand, the integration is delayed and nobody knows if all the claimed weapons will be integrated at all. 


vnomad said:


> The JSF program is not a recent development. It was kept in mind while planning the EF's development schedule which catered for an A2G role. The EF is *intended* to perform a multi-role task and the RAF will not like to presuppose that F-35s are always available for strikes.


Intended is the key word and with RN having F35 on their carriers, it should be clear that integrating a2g and anti ship weapons on them will be more important, than on any other land based fighter, because they will be the first to fight in any future UK war.


vnomad said:


> Pay for what exactly? Specifically speaking how is the EF impaired in an A2G role.


Integration and testing of weapons, see above! 


vnomad said:


> One is built for CATOBAR operations and is optimized for carrier operations, the other isn't. Yeah true enough.


Funny but not correct, the one is mainly for air superiority, with secondary strike capabilities. The other mainly for strike with BVR capabilities. This is a normal concept that you can see in several forces. F22 and F35, Su 35 and Su 34, even FGFA and a hypothetical MCA are intended for the same kind of roles. Of course all of them are multi role fighters, but *always* one mainly geared with capabilities for air superiority and the other for mainly for strike. 


vnomad said:


> It does, higher range and payload, but a typical load doesn't require 7.5 tons of payload(EF) let alone 9 tons(Rafale). And in the regional scenario with 6 refuelers available and more(Airbus MRTT) on their way, another 300 km of range is not a must.


Unless EF has integrated heavy a2g payload you are right. Rafale instead already uses heavy payloads:

http://kovy.free.fr/temp/rafale-super-nounou.jpg

Rafale in buddy refueling mission with 2x 2000l and 2x 1250l, centerline refueling pod + 2 Mica ~ 6t

http://www.mbda-systems.com/mbda/site/docs_wsw/RUB_120/scalp3_alexandre_paringaux.jpg

Rafale in long range strike mission with 3x 2000l tanks, 2 Scalp and 4 Micas ~ 8t



vnomad said:


> As of now, the Rafale and EF have the same flyaway cost.


Any source for that claim?



vnomad said:


> I believe the Rafale has 14 not 15 hardpoints.


Rafale has triple pylons for bombs, so on a single weapon station it can carry up to 3 AASM as you can see in the following pic:

http://www.escuadron69.net/v20/images/redactores/paratrapo/3-RafaleMconSTRBR-3000.jpg


----------



## Screaming Skull

EADS ups the ante.....

*Eurofighter comes without end user monitoring clause​*
Friday, Dec 11, 2009

NEW DELHI: As the race for the multibillion-dollar tender for 126 medium multirole combat aircraft (MMRCA) edges closer to conclusion with user-trials progressing as per schedule, *Eurofighter, one of the six contenders, offers a cutting-edge technology without the End User Monitoring clause.*

*It is really a next generation plane and it will be in service for the next 30 to 40 years. It also comes without any End User Verification, complete transfer of technology and production,* German ambassador Thomas Matussek told The&#8194;Hindu.

End User Monitoring, which created a political controversy earlier this year, is a requirement the United States insists on countries to which it supplies sensitive military equipment. American firms Lockheed Martin (F16) and Boeing (F/A18) are in the fray along with the Russian MiG, Swedish SAAB (Grippen) and French Dassault (Rafale).

Barring the first batch that will be supplied off-the-shelf, all fighters will have to be made in India under transfer of technology. *Mr. Matussek said the European Aeronautic Defence and Space Company (EADS) would shift its entire technology, which means that in the event of war, the country will not have to worry about supplies from overseas.*

*As for software code supply, the ambassador said it would be much higher than what some competitors including from the U.S. might offer.*

Germany has been nominated by the four-country consortium of EADS, which produces the Eurofighter, as the lead country to pitch for the fighter aircraft in India.

The Hindu : National : Eurofighter comes without end user monitoring clause

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## deckingraj

> Mr. Matussek said the European Aeronautic Defence and Space Company (EADS) would shift its entire technology, which means that in the event of war, the country will not have to worry about supplies from overseas.
> 
> 
> Mr. Matussek, while admitting that the Eurofighter was dubbed &#8220;expensive,&#8221; by competitors, said the life cycle maintenance cost would even out the initial high price.
> 
> Mr. Matussek said Germany was keen on supplying, besides the MMRCA, military equipment including submarines for the Indian Navy. It preferred to have India as a strategic partner and *precisely for the reason shelved the decision to supply similar equipment to Pakistan, *he said.



These statements makes me feel EuroFighter is offering a lot...if the specs of this fighter suffice our needs than i don't see any reason to go for any other competitor until and unless their offer is as lucrative as this one is....


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## rajeev

deckingraj said:


> These two statements makes me feel EuroFighter is offering a lot...if the specs of this fighter suffice our needs than i don't see any reason to go for any other competitor until and unless their offer is as lucrative as this one is....



Yes, Eurofighter is best aircraft that can have atleast a shot against F22.

But I think India has already made decision on this and we will be choosing based on strategic need/support rather than military need.


----------



## Hulk

rajeev said:


> Yes, Eurofighter is best aircraft that can have atleast a shot against F22.
> 
> But I think India has already made decision on this and we will be choosing based on strategic need/support rather than military need.



And what that decision is and if decision is made, why waste time. Common sense says that waiting might give us better options.


----------



## rajeev

indianrabbit said:


> And what that decision is and if decision is made, why waste time. Common sense says that waiting might give us better options.



My guess is India will choose F18SH. 

Why waste time? Is that a question? This is India. Even for filing to create a corporation, it takes 6 months. This is 10b$ - so many stakeholders have to get rich, if you know what i mean...


----------



## deckingraj

> But I think India has already made decision on this and we will be choosing based on strategic need/support rather than military need.



Well even if we have made up our mind(which is stupid) the minimum we can do is to bargain by citing this example...Also there has to be a reason that EuroFighter is offering that much - May be it still see's a chance...Who can say...we need to wait and watch... though i must say this wait is getting more and more frustrating...


----------



## Hulk

rajeev said:


> My guess is India will choose F18SH.
> 
> Why waste time? Is that a question? This is India. Even for filing to create a corporation, it takes 6 months. This is 10b$ - so many stakeholders have to get rich, if you know what i mean...



I beg to differ that we have made our minds, if that was the case EF should have known it. They all have access to insider information.


----------



## vnomad

sancho said:


> Not important, the point was US supported them for years and not us, even with military power against us (unlike France). To me that means they have to show us that they are reliable first.



So _show_ meaning what exactly?



> Let's see, they gave us Mirage 2000, which is one of the best fighters in our fleet at the moment and didn't had the quality problems like Russian techs.



They didn't really _give_ it(they charged us a hefty bundle for them). And Mirage 2000 was available to everyone, with the exception of perhaps USSR, PRC, Cuba and a few others.



> They gave us Scorpene class subs,



And ink had barely dried on that contract before they were marketing the Marlin to PN(as superior to the Scorpene).



> offered now Rafale with full ToT and source codes, something that no other country except Russia will offer.



EF, Gripen offer that I believe. Just a question of degrees really.

Also, they'd have offered that to anyone(like say Pakistan) for a substantial order of aircraft.



> They cleared the nuclear deal right after Russia and provided us civil nuclear power plants.



The US support enabled a waiver for India in both the IAEA and NSG which is no mean achievement and is something no other country could have done.



> They support us for a permanent seat in the UNC,



What they have to lose? France is the most passive member of the UNSC P5 by a long long stretch.



> we already have co-developments in avionics and they offered a co-developed Kaveri-Snecma engine.



Sure but India has strong military-industrial relations with other EU countries as well. 



> But most important they were reliable during sanction times!



I can confidently say sanctions aren't going to happen again. Times have changed. Tomorrow if Japan were to conduct nuclear tests it wouldn't be sanctioned. While India's situation isn't exactly the same, the logic remains the same. On the global stage, India's standing is a leagues ahead of what it was in 1998. 

BTW with regard to the Eurofighter; UK didn't sanction India either. 



> Looks like they sold and sell us state of the are arms, gives us the chance for co-developments, support us politically and in the civil nuclear field,



Like I said.. they support everyone. A Rafale purchase isn't going make any major difference to India's equation with them.



> so everything that Russia offers us too!



After the arm-twisting the Russians have engaged in with regard to the Gorshkov, and considering the fact the MiG-35 seems to be the 'budget fighter' relative to its competitors, I don't think that the MiG-35 is anywhere close to winning the contract (or atleast I'm praying its not).



> Can you name me another country that can offer us the same, especially co-developments and nuclear power?



Everyone. Except for shared R&D with the US; they don't need any collaboration.



> MMRCA is the chance for us to get France even closer to us than ever before, on levels like we have with Russia and Isreal.



Err ......... not going to happen. While not quite Switzerland, they're a pretty hands-off country. 



> Are they? Or do they only open the door for US arms with buying less important patrol and transport aircrafts in smaller numbers? MMRCA is a totally different thing and US have to come up with more, if they want to get a part of this market.



That's over $5 billion worth of contracts and big affirmative on the govt./IAF's confidence vis-a-vis the US.

Also, I don't think you appreciate the kind of performance the P-8 brings to the table. Its going to be the first defence against the PN's Agostas and U-214s. At ASuW it will be a generation ahead of anything and everything flying today; its absolutely cutting edge and speaks volumes about the progress, India's politico-military ties with US, have made.



> You still didn't understand it, it means that the aircraft is wired to the use such weapons, but it still needs integration and testing of them. That exactly is what the members are doing with Paveway 4 at the moment:
> 
> This is Block 10, but only IRIS-T is integrated so far Paveway 3, ALARM, Brimstone and the cruise missiles will only come in Block 15, or even later in Tranche 3A.



Unless, major obstacles are encountered(extremely unlikely), individual weapons integration trials are generally pretty short. The JDAM/Paveway being a possible exception since they are free-fall and can be carried in clusters. But, as your link said, the Paveway IV tests concluded in July this year. 

India's deliveries as I've stated before are expected over _three_ years from now.



> That's what I try to make you understand, the integration is delayed and *nobody knows if all the claimed weapons will be integrated at all. *



Where did you get that notion from? It would be pretty mind-boggling to see the wiring and software upgrades completed, tests completed and then the whole plan scrapped? Only the Storm Shadow and Brimstone remain to be integrated.



> Intended is the key word and with RN having F35 on their carriers, it should be clear that integrating a2g and anti ship weapons on them will be more important, than on any other land based fighter, because they will be the first to fight in any future UK war.



They're not mutually exclusive objectives. Integrating A2G weaponry on the F-35 doesn't come at the cost of doing the same with the EF or vice-versa.



> Integration and testing of weapons, see above!



Did that.



> Funny but not correct, the one is mainly for air superiority, with secondary strike capabilities. The other mainly for strike with BVR capabilities. This is a normal concept that you can see in several forces. F22 and F35, Su 35 and Su 34, even FGFA and a hypothetical MCA are intended for the same kind of roles. Of course all of them are multi role fighters, but *always* one mainly geared with capabilities for air superiority and the other for mainly for strike.



How about the F-16, Mirage-2000, Tornado, F-15E? I don't see how the Rafale is similar to them and the EF is not, except in terms of time-frame? 



> Unless EF has integrated heavy a2g payload you are right. Rafale instead already uses heavy payloads:
> 
> http://kovy.free.fr/temp/rafale-super-nounou.jpg
> 
> Rafale in buddy refueling mission with 2x 2000l and 2x 1250l, centerline refueling pod + 2 Mica ~ 6t



That's the heaviest mission profile and an unlikely one considering the availability of air to air refuelers in the IAF. In a typical scenario, the payload would be lower and matched by the Eurofighter.



> Rafale in long range strike mission with 3x 2000l tanks, 2 Scalp and 4 Micas ~ 8t



Well in the regional scenario, the long range strike role is likely to be carried out by the Su-30MKI, which is inherently better at it.



> Any source for that claim?



The *Eurofighter's flyaway price* is expected to be about *&#8364;63 million*.



> For EADS, India represents perhaps the next and certainly the biggest potential customer for the Eurofighter Typhoon. Though Typhoon&#8217;s &#163;42m/&#8364;62m unit flyaway cost make the aircraft more expensive than the US, Swedish and Russian contenders, the aircraft offers low support and through life costs, and a compelling mix of capabilities. Typhoon is claimed to have better air-to-air capabilities than its rivals, with its mechanically scanned radar offering better range than the other fighters&#8217; AESA radars.
> 
> Flight Global: ILA 2008: Indian bids add spice



The *Rafale's cost* varies from *&#8364;64 million* to &#8364;70 million. The naval variant is likely to be at the higher end of that spectrum while the air force version will be cheaper.

Google Translate


(Its a English translation of French document tabled in the parliament).

Point is that the Rafale is far from being an economical alternative to the Eurofighter.


----------



## sancho

rajeev said:


> Yes, Eurofighter is best aircraft *that can have atleast a shot against F22.*
> 
> But I think India has already made decision on this and we will be choosing based on strategic need/support rather than military need.


Can you explain how?


----------



## rajeev

sancho said:


> Can you explain how?



I read an article which had information about military war games. The planes for the games were F22, F16 , F15, Eurofighter, Rafale and Su-35.

What was said, it would need 4.5 Eurofighters for taking down 1 F22. 10 F15 were needed to take down 1 F22, etc., 4.5 Su-35 was needed to take down 1 Eurofighter, F15 was found to be inferior to Su-35 at 1/1.3 ratio, etc. Thus after this military war game, Eurofighter tranche 3 started getting rated just below F22. Ofcourse, AESA was not used which is inferior in Eurofighter.

I saw this explained in detail by the gurus on worldmilitaryforum.

This link below has another war game whether Eurofighter took down F15.
Schein-Luftkampf: Eurofighter besiegt zwei US-Jets - SPIEGEL ONLINE - Nachrichten - Wissenschaft


----------



## vnomad

rajeev said:


> Yes, Eurofighter is best aircraft that can have atleast a shot against F22.



Not really my friend. The F-22 is the closest thing to 'invincible' that's ever flown in sky.

Its scored kill ratios of 144-0 at Ex. Northern Edge and over 120-1 at Red Flag.

Nothing comes close.


----------



## vnomad

rajeev said:


> I read an article which had information about military war games. The planes for the games were F22, F16 , F15, Eurofighter, Rafale and Su-35.
> 
> What was said, it would need 4.5 Eurofighters for taking down 1 F22. 10 F15 were needed to take down 1 F22, etc., 4.5 Su-35 was needed to take down 1 Eurofighter, F15 was found to be inferior to Su-35 at 1/1.3 ratio, etc. Thus after this military war game, Eurofighter tranche 3 started getting rated just below F22. Ofcourse, AESA was not used which is inferior in Eurofighter.



The DERA simulation was just that ... a simulation. The real acid test of the F-22 was when it went to participate in air force exercises. Some of the best US pilots from the USAF's aggressor squadrons were eager to take the F-22 on. _They were simply blown away_. The only time they knew a F-22 was around was when the RWR in their cockpits was blaring and the Raptor had a lock.


----------



## rajeev

vnomad said:


> Not really my friend. The F-22 is the closest thing to 'invincible' that's ever flown in sky.
> 
> Its scored kill ratios of 144-0 at Ex. Northern Edge and over 120-1 at Red Flag.
> 
> Nothing comes close.



I am unable to find the link where they detailed the war games.

I am not saying F22 is an easy shot. What I'm saying that in the war game, there were about 1 F22 fell for 4.5 Eurofighters in close combat. None of other fighter plane even close.

As you know, besides being high performing, F22 is also stealthy. For our concern, I see Eurofighter as the best and most expensive plane available for MRCA acquisition.

Source:
The Eurofighter Typhoon beat the F22 in real tests!



> "The MoD said it would not be putting Typhoons up against the Indian Airforce Su-30s as a one on one fight. However, it did happen and there is HUD video to prove it. Apparently two inexperienced Typhoon pilots returned with big grins on their faces, the Su-30s were toasted, all the Su-30's air display antics amounted to nothing, the Typhoons proved too nimble and too powerful for the Russian aircraft. The Typhoons were also not clean configured.
> During the Typhoon's visit to the US in 2005 it was pitted againt the F-22, this was not officially confirmed. The Typhoon could not see the F-22 but could detect that it was being painted by the F-22 and took "appropriate" measures with defensive aids. In one on one combat the Typhoon did the same job as on the Su-30, the F-22 could not handle the Typhoons close in and were shocked. It did not go all the Typhoon's way but the Americans had a sobering encounter, with the F-22 sacrificing much for stealth"........................



Source: Fourth-generation jet fighter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


> Aircraft Odds vs. Su-35
> Lockheed Martin/Boeing F-22 Raptor 10.1 : 1
> Eurofighter Typhoon 4.5 : 1
> Dassault Rafale C 1 : 1
> McDonnell Douglas F-15C Eagle 0.8 : 1
> Boeing F/A-18+ 0.4 : 1
> McDonnell Douglas F/A-18C 0.3 : 1
> General Dynamics F-16C 0.3 : 1



Eurofighter vs f-22


----------



## sancho

Can't reply you in the next few weeks, so only the important parts and if you want reply via PM.



vnomad said:


> So _show_ meaning what exactly?


With something that really make a difference, like F35 instead of upg F16.


vnomad said:


> EF, Gripen offer that I believe. Just a question of degrees really.


EF maybe, Gripen no, because of too many important parts from other countries.


vnomad said:


> Everyone. Except for shared R&D with the US; they don't need any collaboration.


What??? Only Russia, China and US can offer all arms and nuclear power like France can, but China won't, US won't share techs, so co-developments are not possible and always will have restrictions and Russia already provide us everything. Getting such a second alternativ in all these fields, without any strings and totally independent would get India out of the overdependance of Russia, with increasing western quality techs and even France officials said that they want to go way beyond a normal buyer seller relationship.


vnomad said:


> With Russia, Israel and France as stratigic partners, India could remain *independent*, getting *co-developed* arms, instead of simple buys and moreover improve our own indsutrial capabilities with *ToT*. Three points where US can't compete these countries!
> 
> 
> vnomad said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's over $5 billion worth of contracts and big affirmative on the govt./IAF's confidence vis-a-vis the US.
> 
> Also, I don't think you appreciate the kind of performance the P-8 brings to the table. Its going to be the first defence against the PN's Agostas and U-214s. At ASuW it will be a generation ahead of anything and everything flying today; its absolutely cutting edge and speaks volumes about the progress, India's politico-military ties with US, have made.
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't say those techs are bad, but they clearly won't have that much influence on our security like MMRCA.
> 
> 
> vnomad said:
> 
> 
> 
> But, as your link said, the Paveway IV tests concluded in July this year.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Concluded that series of tests with:
> 
> 
> 
> a sequence of fifteen Paveway IV jettison drops. To date *3 successful* drops have been performed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Only 3 succsessful drops of 15, what does it say to you how much more time it will needed? Btw German and Spanish EFs did the same test this year too and still that weapon is not operational.
> 
> 
> vnomad said:
> 
> 
> 
> Where did you get that notion from? It would be pretty mind-boggling to see the wiring and software upgrades completed, tests completed and then the whole plan scrapped? Only the Storm Shadow and Brimstone remain to be integrated.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Wiring is ready in any tranche 2 fighter, but not the software upgrades, or the tests! Again look at Paveway 4, the fighters are wired for that weapon, but only after the integration (like you said software upgrades and testings) the weapon will be operational.
> Similar case for Rafale F2, it is wired for AMRAAM and any export customer that want to use that weapon and fund the integration can have it, but without integration, no AMRAAM.
> 
> 
> vnomad said:
> 
> 
> 
> Integrating A2G weaponry on the F-35 doesn't come at the cost of doing the same with the EF
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Exactly, it will be cheaper, because it is an US fighter that uses mainly US a2g weapons, so US will take the big part of the costs anyway. US weapon for EF instead must be funded from member countries alone. Again, why should UK and ITA integrate them on EF, if F35 will have them anyway and will be much more useful in that role?
> 
> 
> vnomad said:
> 
> 
> 
> Point is that the Rafale is far from being an economical alternative to the Eurofighter.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Not on unit cost of course (doubt the same price but still it's clear that Rafale is the second costliest), but on logistic and maintenance! Maintenance of Rafale is said to be on Mirage 2000 level (reported by Greece airforce too), because that was the aim of Dassault from the beginning.
> IAF upg M2k and Jags (together nearly the same number as MMRCAs) can use the same weapons as Rafale, so logistic will be the same and cost can be reduced.
> And now think about if a Kaveri-Snecma engine could be integrated! More indigenous parts, less costs!
> Again something that no other country can offer!
Click to expand...


----------



## vnomad

sancho said:


> Can't reply you in the next few weeks, so only the important parts and if you want reply via PM.



Take your time no hurry. Its just a friendly debate.



> With something that really make a difference, like F35 instead of upg F16.



India can buy the F-35 if it wants but the delivery schedule doesn't really suit the IAF's urgent need for replacement aircraft as the MiGs are phased out.

As for ToT, forget it... good ties is one thing, but its something the US isn't going to share and for good reason. Not that India can afford it; the F-35 development cost was over $50 billion. Similarly, the British aren't going to share the ToT for Astute class submarines or the French the Trioumphant class.



> What??? Only Russia, China and US can offer all arms and nuclear power like France can, but China won't, US won't share techs, so co-developments are not possible and always will have restrictions and Russia already provide us everything. Getting such a second alternativ in all these fields, without any strings and totally independent would get India out of the overdependance of Russia, with increasing western quality techs and even France officials said that they want to go way beyond a normal buyer seller relationship.



Since, India got an exemption from the IAEA and NSG, the Indian nuclear power sector is now a civilian concern. Its a free market system, the best bid to generate power will win the contract, the bid's open to all and its completely independent of the military establishment. You can't have Areva and Dassault delivering a joint bid. Its beyond the MoD's scope and irrelevant to the IAF. 



> With Russia, Israel and France as stratigic partners, India could remain *independent*, getting *co-developed* arms, instead of simple buys and moreover improve our own indsutrial capabilities with *ToT*. Three points where US can't compete these countries!



Well Russia and Israel are already strategic partners and we have a host of joint development programs with them. 

With regard to France, like I mentioned before India has far more in common strategically with the US and UK than it does with France. And taking a pro-active role in global affairs isn't something France is interested in. Creating a strategic partnership with India isn't too high on its to-do list.



> I didn't say those techs are bad, but they clearly won't have that much influence on our security like MMRCA.



Point was that sanctions aren't a worry as is clearly evident from the scale of India's defence purchases from the US.



> Concluded that series of tests with:
> Only 3 succsessful drops of 15, what does it say to you how much more time it will needed? Btw German and Spanish EFs did the same test this year too and still that weapon is not operational.



I believe you've misinterpreted those remarks. The entire sentence is:

Further recently *successful testing* saw IPA 1, the UK owned Typhoon aircraft, commence a sequence of fifteen Paveway IV jettison drops. To date 3 successful drops have been performed.

The author probably means 3 missions of employing 5 Paveways each, or maybe a series of 15 tests of which 3 are over, or something similar, though he shouldn't have used the word 'drop' for both.



> Wiring is ready in any tranche 2 fighter, but not the software upgrades, or the tests! Again look at Paveway 4, the fighters are wired for that weapon, but only after the integration (like you said software upgrades and testings) the weapon will be operational.



Reading from _your_ link, the Paveway IV is already operational.



> Exactly, it will be cheaper, because it is an US fighter that uses mainly US a2g weapons, so US will take the big part of the costs anyway. US weapon for EF instead must be funded from member countries alone. Again, why should UK and ITA integrate them on EF, if F35 will have them anyway and will be much more useful in that role?



The process of integrating air to ground weapons isn't very expensive. Firstly, relative to the entire development expenditure, the cost involved is simply peanuts. And secondly, its already been done and except for the Storm Shadow and Brimstone(for which its already committed), the EF is a working multi-role fighter.



> Not on unit cost of course (doubt the same price but still it's clear that Rafale is the second costliest), but on logistic and maintenance! Maintenance of Rafale is said to be on Mirage 2000 level (reported by Greece airforce too), because that was the aim of Dassault from the beginning.



Well I'm still to see anything that suggests its maintenance cost is lower than the Eurofighter's.



> IAF upg M2k and Jags (together nearly the same number as MMRCAs) can use the same weapons as Rafale, so logistic will be the same and cost can be reduced.



The IAF is planning to replace the Magic AFAIK and have (I might be wrong) deployed the Derby on the Jaguar(I believe). The MICA will probably be common to the Rafale and Mirage-2000 but I believe the saving in costs because of munitions is minimal and certainly not worth tipping the scales in the Rafale's favour.

BTW the Paveway is employed by the Mirage-2000, Jaguar, MiG-27 and Eurofighter. 



> And now think about if a Kaveri-Snecma engine could be integrated! More indigenous parts, less costs!
> Again something that no other country can offer!



I don't have high or for that matter even mediocre expectations from the Kaveri. Certainly not worth replacing the reliable and excellent M-88 on the Rafale, with the Kaveri to save money.


----------



## Tejas-MkII

Eurojet could develop thrust vectoring with India

*Eurojet could develop thrust vectoring with India *
By Murdo Morrison

The consortium behind the Eurofighter Typhoon's engine has hinted strongly that it could partner a non-European country - *possibly India - *to develop and demonstrate a thrust-vectoring version of the EJ200 as part of a technology-sharing deal.

Eurojet is keen to source funds to test its thrust vectoring nozzle (TVN) on a flight demonstrator. It believes if it can obtain enough in-flight data, it will be able to prove the lifecycle cost benefits of the technology - which has been in development for over a decade - to current and future customers.

However, military budget pressures facing the four Eurofighter launch nations - Germany, Italy, Spain and the UK - and scepticism about the advantages of a capability associated more with spectacular air show manoeuvres than operating prudence will make it difficult to secure backing from existing customers.

Instead, the four-nation industrial combine and Eurofighter plan to discuss with possible export customers offset and technology transfer packages that would include "growth potential" for the fighter.

"*We are evaluating future markets and a number of RFPs [requests for proposal] have asked for potential growth," *says Adrian Johnson, senior vice-president sales for Eurojet. "*TVN is in there. It might be that a customer outside Europe could come on board and embrace that technology."*

Although Eurofighter has secured Austria and Saudi Arabia as export customers and is pitching the Typhoon at countries such as Greece, Japan, Romania, Switzerland and Turkey, *India is the most likely partner because of the size of its requirement and the fact that it is determined to develop its aerospace industrial base.*

*Another factor is that Eurojet is separately bidding against General Electric to supply the EJ200 for an improved version of India's single-engine Tejas light combat aircraft. A combined offer could provide sufficient economies to persuade India to fund a demonstration programme.*

*Johnson says Eurojet could be ready for a flight demonstration within 18-24 months, but stresses that the emphasis will be on obtaining data that backs the TVN's economic benefits rather than its enhanced dogfighting capability.*

"Increasing agility isn't going to cause [potential customers] to back TVN," he says. "What will cause them to back it is a reduction in lifecycle costs. That's what we have to demonstrate and build a cast-iron case around."


----------



## vnomad

rajeev said:


> I am unable to find the link where they detailed the war games.
> I am not saying F22 is an easy shot. What I'm saying that in the war game, there were about 1 F22 fell for 4.5 Eurofighters in close combat. None of other fighter plane even close.
> As you know, besides being high performing, F22 is also stealthy. For our concern, I see Eurofighter as the best and most expensive plane available for MRCA acquisition.



Nothing comes even remotely close to the performance of the F-22:-



> *F-22 near perfect in combat exercises*
> By Seamus OConnor - Staff writer
> Posted : Tuesday Jul 31, 2007 15:56:56 EDT
> The F-22 Raptor is the worlds most advanced fighter, but is it invincible?
> 
> Internet rumors have swirled for months over whether any F-22s had been taken down in simulated combat exercises. Discussion forums are rife with Navy pilots touting a controversial photo appearing to show an F/A-18F Super Hornet gunning down a Raptor.
> 
> The F-22s debut combat exercise was at Northern Edge in June 2006. According to Air Force data, the dozen F-22s in attendance *racked up an unprecedented kill record of 144-0 the first week alone and suffered no losses overall*.
> 
> The Raptors only other combat exercise so far was Red Flag 07-1, held Feb. 3-16 at Nellis Air Force Base, Nev. The Air Force released no data indicating an F-22 shootdown.
> 
> But according to the March 5 issue of Aviation Week & Space Technology, one Raptor got blasted.
> 
> In the article, Col. Tom Bergeson, the exercises air expeditionary commander, described the situation: When one aggressor went down, it was able to fly out and regenerate so quickly that an F-22 pilot thought the enemy was still dead, and got shot down himself for the mistake.
> 
> One thing is for sure: The plane that took down the Raptor was an F-15 or F-16, but not an F/A-18F. When asked whether a Superbug might have claimed a kill, one Air Force public affairs officer scoffed, Not bloody likely.
> 
> Though the Raptor may not have a perfect record, it still got high praise during the exercise.
> 
> *The thing denies your ability to put a weapons system on it, even when I can see it through the canopy, said one Australian aggressor pilot at the time. Its the most frustrated Ive ever been.*
> 
> F-22 near perfect in combat exercises - Air Force News, news from Iraq - Air Force Times






> *Taxing the F-22*
> "Northern Edge was not an Air Force-only test of the F-22. It was a no-kidding joint exercise," says Lawson. "The scenarios were what the F-22 would do in a real fight: escorting B-2s in, protecting the skies, and operating with and against other fighters."
> In contrast, Red Flag was set up to tax the F-22, he says. "It was focused on putting it at a disadvantage and trying a lot of different tactics."
> 
> 
> 
> F-22s of the USAF's 1st Fighter Wing have completed three key developments
> 
> In Alaska, the F-22 achieved an unprecedented 144:0 kill ratio in the first week of Northern Edge. "In the first week of the fight, the preponderance of engagements were beyond visual range. In the second week they got into the merge and took a couple of shots," says Lawson, pointing out that the pilots averaged less than 100h on the aircraft. The final tally was 80:1.
> Northern Edge included an air-to-air mission involving a "blue" team of 24 F-15Cs, eight F-22s and two F-15Es against 40 F-16s and F/A-18s that were allowed to regenerate to produce a total "red" air force of 103 aircraft.
> The USAF says the blue team was able to achieve an 83:1 kill ratio, losing one F-15. Over the two-week exercise, the F-22 accounted for 30% of the blue force and 49% of kills.
> 
> Export Ready? The F-22





> *Inside the War Games for U.S. Air Force Fighter Pilots*
> 
> Brenton (call sign "Gripper") has flown the F-16 for 20 years and has close to 4000 hours, including 750 hours of combat. He is also a former Weapons School instructor pilot at Nellis, the same program in which the 174th today is testing its mettle against the Raptor. He doesn't like to lose, but against the F-22 he has little choice. "Fighter pilots are competitive by nature. *When the F-22 first became operational, most F-16 and F-15 pilots relished the challenge of going up against it," he says. "I know I did. That is, until I actually did it and discovered how humbling an experience it really was."*
> 
> *The Art of Losing*
> 
> No U.S. airplaneor any other in the worldcan match the F-22 in a dogfight during combat training. To get experience in realistic battle conditions, Raptor pilotsalways the Blue Team are training with U.S. pilots who serve as adversaries, or "Red Teams." Last week, Raptor pilots finished training against Navy F-15s and F/A-18 Super Hornets in Japan. From February through April, Nellis hosts F-22s at the 2009 Red Flag wargames, a six-week, multinational training exercise held at Eielson Air Force Base in Alaska and at Nellis.
> 
> F-22s dominate at Red Flag as well. Red Teams flying F-16s and F-15s take them on. Those who train to be the adversaries at Red Flag belong to the 64th and 65th Aggressor squadrons. These seasoned Red Team veterans find it frustrating to fight what they can't see. *"Aggressor pilots are not typical Air Force line units. They tend to have much more experience," says Mike Estrada, a spokesman at the air base. "And I can tell you that our Aggressor pilots are getting very tired of always getting shot down by the F-22."*
> 
> The reputation of the Raptor is evident in the pride that some take in downing one in simulated combat. A photo surfaced on an aviation website that recently caused a stir when the unnamed pilot of a surveillance aircraft said the silhouette of a warplane he painted on his fuselage was an F-22 that he helped locate and shoot down during an exercise. "Some Navy pilots like to brag if they even lock on to a Raptor," says one Air Force officer.
> 
> *Learning Potential of a One-Sided Fight*
> 
> "My F-16 is still a formidable weapons system in its own right. But it is not even in the same league as an F-22," Brenton says. "*Technology keeps the F-22 a virtually undetectable and untouchable regime. It is fair to say that unless an F-22 driver makes a mistake, or has a critical system failure, I will always lose a fight against him.* That is a good thing. As a nation, we want it this way. We also want him to be able to handle two, six or eight of us completely on his own."
> 
> *Into the Fight*
> 
> Simulated gun and missile shots are tracked by the controllers on the ground. When a target is killed, the deceased pilot receives a radio call telling him that he is dead. The pilot will often be sent to a location that simulates an enemy alert airfield, where he is "regenerated," simulating that the enemy has launched another aircraft. (The trainees go back to the base and land if they are killed.) When it comes to fighting Raptors, regeneration is an expected occurrence for WIC Red Teams. *"We do everything we can to try and challenge them: We increase our total numbers, we regenerate, we electronically jam the environment. And we die," Brenton says. "We die wholesale. We are kill-removed repeatedly and then regenerated, and then we are killed again. The process would be demoralizing if we didn't maintain proper perspective.* This is our job while we are here. What motivates us is the fact that we are training our brethrenand they are damn good at what they do."
> 
> F-15s and F-16s take on the F-22 in Air Force War Games - Fighter Pilot Training - Popular Mechanics

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## vnomad

neo29 said:


> eurofighter ... is probably the best among the lot. but is still has to develop aesa . project may delay upto 2014-15. saudi has it giving paf easy access to its technologies and weakness.



None of the aircraft except for the SH have an AESA in production. Also, the KSAF doesn't have ToT for the aircraft, so they aren't likely to leak the technology to Pakistan.



> FA 18 ... the worthy adversary. has proved its might in afghan. but against an enemy who does not even have an airforce. for sure not upgradable or modifyable coz of end user agreement. we peek into its circuits and engine the americans will shout . so y to go for a product that we cant suit according to our own needs.



Its the best of the lot as far avionics go, even better than the Eurofighter and Rafale. And it features the most cost effective munitions. Also, the US has always been ahead of the curve as far as military R&D goes, so you can expect upgrades and add-ons with greater frequency than with its competitors.



> saab gripen jas 39 .... though an underdog.. has all the potential that iaf wants. saab is ready to give entire technology to india. also partnering with tata. ready for upgrades and modification the gripen in future. they basically say "do anything with it... its urs "



Rafale, Eurofighter and MiG-35 are all offering that. The SH may withhold the AESA's technology.



> . with aesa radar already tested and ready... supercruise ... the demo



The AESA isn't going to enter service till 2012-13 same as the Captor-E and RBE2AA on the EF and Rafale. All three AESA's are ready in the sense they're undergoing flight-testing and further development, but none are on the verge of production.



> saab also gives option fitting any weapon of its choice... something none of the above fighters give.



Actually they all can field any weapon of western origin. I'm guessing even the R-77 can be mated on request.

Difference is that in the case of the Saab all munitions will have to be sourced from a third party(US), while the other suppliers will offer a steady supply of their munitions to go with the aircraft.



> we have to buy weapons ( missiles ) that the supplier says we need to buy .



No we don't actually. Theoretically, we can field the Rafale with the Aim-120 but practically speaking we'd go for the MICA. In the case of the Saab we _have_ to go to the US or France for the munitions.



> also its has amazing maneuverability .



This part is debatable but AFAIK the MiG-35 is the most maneuverable aircraft while the EF is the most agile.


----------



## sudhir007

Gripen interest to India

Google]Google Translate Translate

---------- Post added at 10:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:44 AM ----------

*Eurofighter will last 30 to 40 years: German envoy IDRW.ORG*

Eurofighter, one of the six contenders for the multibillion-dollar tender for 126 medium multirole combat aircraft (MMRCA), offers a cutting-edge technology without the End User Monitoring clause, German ambassador Thomas Matussek has said.

&#8220;It is really a next generation plane and it will be in service for the next 30 to 40 years,&#8221; he told The Hindu. &#8220;It also comes without any End User Verification, complete transfer of technology and production.&#8221;

End User Monitoring, which created a political controversy earlier this year, is a requirement the United States insists countries to which it supplies sensitive military equipment must agree to. American firms Lockheed Martin (F16) and Boeing (F/A18) are in the fray along with the Russian MiG, Swedish SAAB (Grippen) and French Dassault (Rafale).

Barring the first batch that will be supplied off-the-shelf, all fighters will have to be made in India under transfer of technology. Mr. Matussek said the European Aeronautic Defence and Space Company (EADS) would shift its entire technology, which means that in the event of war, the country will not have to worry about supplies from overseas.

As for software code supply, the ambassador said it would be much higher than what some competitors, including U.S. companies, might offer.

Germany has been nominated by the four-country consortium of EADS, which produces the Eurofighter, as the lead country to pitch for the fighter aircraft in India.

Mr. Matussek, while admitting that the Eurofighter was described as &#8220;expensive&#8221; by competitors, said the life cycle maintenance cost would even out the initial high price.

According to the Defence Procurement Policy, the offset clause makes it mandatory for the manufacturer to source 50 per cent of the value from India.

Strategic partner

Mr. Matussek said Germany was keen on supplying military equipment, including submarines, for the Navy. It preferred to have India as a strategic partner and, precisely for that reason, shelved the decision to supply similar equipment to Pakistan, he said.

As for the IAF&#8217;s mid-air refuel tanker, Mr. Matussek said the deal appeared to have hit a snag, with clearance stuck in the Defence Ministry. Although there is no official confirmation, reports indicate that Airbus A330 is preferred to Boeing.


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## vnomad

neo29 said:


> weapon of choice is imp ... we do make lots and made improvements in missile technologies.



?? I don't believe as per terms of the contract, modification of guided missiles is ever permitted(Brahmos being the exception).



> so tailoring needs are met ... besides gripen has offered source code of aesa with complete tot.



Well details of the ToT proposal are only available to the IAF so far. Whether the ToT for the MMIC module, complete array or processor will be released is unknown at this point. Whether it will yield gains in terms of economical viability is another unknown at this point. Also, its competitors are also offering ToTs(extents of which are again unknown) for their AESA radars.



> supercruise is req of iaf ... only mig 35 apart from gripen ng has it.



I don't believe that is a requirement. And of the competitors the EF as well as the Gripen can supercruise. The MiG-35 AFAIK cannot.



> it can land on 800 mtr highway also ... remember our enemies have good record to go after airbase and their runways during war ...



The Swedes have a different operating philosophy than the IAF's. They expected to be confronted with the massive Soviet airforce which made operating from roads and makeshift airbases(rather than proper ones) a necessity. In the IAF's case, it doesn't operating from roads isn't an operational objective. Other infrastructure and training isn't in place to support that, even if an aircraft that could do so entered service.



> rather ... we cud go for fa18 for the 40 that indian navy req
> 
> besides reports have surfaced that india will be going for another 100 besides the 126 . we can go for rafale or ef then .
> 
> 126 - 200 .. gripens with weapon of choice ..
> 40 ... sh18 for indian navy
> 100... .ef or rafale



Every aircraft in the world(including the IAF) tries to reduce the number of aircraft types it operates in order to make logistics and maintenance more effective and cheap while improving interoperability 
among the air force's various squadrons. Going for three aircraft types instead of one isn't likely to happen.



> remember iaf will not want su 30 mki position has frontline fighter to be compromised . ef , rafale, sh18 ... will surely do it .



I don't believe that's something the IAF is actively attempting to do. In any case, AFAIK for now only 126 MRCAs(may later be increased to 200) are to be ordered and with 230-280 MKIs in service, the MKI will remain the IAF's backbone. 



> dependancies of missiles and components shud not hinder during sanctions or non supportance during an event of war. surely nato.. us .. european union will interfere in such cases . we dont want to depend ... rather be independent



While it is preferable to be independent, sanctions aren't a likelihood in future, not least because India has been extremely capable in spurring international opinion in its favour today and in the recent past. Unless our economy starts shrinking or we make a break with democracy, sanctions aren't likely to happen.


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## sudhir007

*Typhoon helmet cleared for operational use*

Eurofighter has cleared the Helmet-Mounted Symbology System (HMSS) for its Typhoon combat aircraft and expects it to be in operational use with frontline pilots by the end of the third quarter of 2010, a company spokesperson said on 9 December.

Speaking at Eurofighter's Munich facility, Laurie Hilditch, head of Future Capabilities Capture, Joint Flight Operations, said that the HMSS is currently with the company's NATO Eurofighter and Tornado Management Agency (NETMA) customer and is going through its final paperwork clearances.

As soon as the production standard HMSS receives its final certification and clearance, the UK Royal Air Force's (RAF's) 17 (Reserve) Squadron (17 Sqn), which is responsible for the UK Typhoon's operational testing and evaluation work at RAF Coningsby, will begin testing the system around the beginning of the second quarter of 2010.

Hilditch said that, once this has been done, Eurofighter will look to establish "a centre of excellence" for the helmet, probably centred around 17 Sqn, at which all the core customers can train their pilots in its use before rolling it out among the squadrons.

"There's not much point in taking something as sophisticated as the helmet, taking it to a squadron and giving it to the boys saying: 'Play with that'. They will need to be taught how to use it," he said.

The HMSS was due to be operational at the same time as the conclusion of the Typhoon main development contract in 2008, but its development has proved to be more complicated than was originally anticipated.

Typhoon helmet cleared for operational use


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## SSGPA1

_arey bhai koi faisla huwa kiya??_

Who are the lucky parties?

Is it a MiG and F-18 combo?

India is between a rock and a hard place now ... end result will be a combination of platforms so taht everyone is happy except the end users


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## vnomad

SSGPA1 said:


> _arey bhai koi faisla huwa kiya??_
> 
> Who are the lucky parties?
> 
> Is it a MiG and F-18 combo?



The flight trials(which took place in India) for the F-16, F-18, Rafale and MiG-35 are over. The Eurofighter's flight trials will be over by March(probably). A decision is likely to be announced late next year.



> India is between a rock and a hard place now ... end result will be a combination of platforms so taht everyone is happy except the end users



There isn't much scope for fusion of systems from different countries ala MKI, in the case of the MRCA aircraft. When the decision is announced, there are going to be five _very_ disappointed parties. 

P.S. If the MiG-35 is selected there are going to be _six_ very disappointed parties; the five others and me.

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## Stealth

80 &#37; Chances of ?

F18SH
Typhoon
Rafale
Mig 

?


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## Imran Khan

i read this MRCA deal when i was in high school please yaar finish it now. no harm our indian brothers just for fun

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## gogbot

Stealth said:


> 80 % Chances of ?
> 
> F18SH
> Typhoon
> Rafale
> Mig
> 
> ?



Only the F-18, Typhoon and Rafale are compteting to win at this point.

IAF wants a twin enigne plane
And A plane that uses the same engine as the LCA, lowering costs and increasing commonality.

The offers as they stand are.



> The Super Hornet variant being offered to India, the F/A-18IN, is based on the F/A-18E/F model flown by the U.S. Navy and currently being built for the Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF). Raytheon's APG-79 AESA radar is being offered on the aircraft. There will be a limited ToT on the radar, up to the level approved by the US Government. However, Raytheon has stated that the level of ToT offered will be compliant with the RFP requirements. Delivery of the first F/A-18IN Super Hornets can begin approximately 36 months after contract award.
> 
> Boeing has proposed joint manufacture of the jets with Indian partners. It also plans to offset the cost by setting up a US$100 million maintenance and training hub in Nagpur. This is the first time the Super Hornet has been offered for production in a foreign country. On 14 February 2008, Boeing and Tata Industries agreed to form a joint-venture company. The new entity, which will be formed in June 2008, will supply components for Boeing military aircraft, including the Super Hornet.
> 
> In order to satisfy its offset requirements, Boeing has signed long-term partnership agreements with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), Tata Industries, and Larsen and Toubro, who will play a significant role in production and assembly of the aircraft.
> 
> Selecting this will Mean that the Tejas Mk-2 will use the GE-414 engine as used in the F-18


 


> Eurofighter is offering the Tranche-3 Typhoon for the Indian requirement, equipped with the Captor-E (CAESAR) AESA radar. EADS has invited India to become a partner of the Eurofighter Typhoon programme if the Typhoon wins the contract, and will be given technological and development participation in future tranches of the Typhoon. Bernhard Gerwert, CEO of EADS Defense Department, elaborated that if India becomes the fifth partner of the Eurofighter programme, it will be able to manufacture assemblies for every new Eurofighter
> 
> Selcting the Euro fighter would mean using the EJ-2000 enigne for the Tejas.





> The French government has cleared full technology transfer of the Rafale to India, including that of the RBE2-AA Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar (which will be integrated with the Rafale by 2010) and the transfer of software source codes, which will allow Indian scientists to re-programme a radar or any sensitive equipment if need be. Without the software source codes, the IAF would have to specify mission parameters to foreign manufacturers to enable configuration of their radar, seriously compromising security in the process.
> 
> Dassault has also offered to fit the Kaveri engine into the Rafale, which, if chosen, which would greatly improve commonality with the Tejas aircraft.
> 
> selecting the Rafael would mean Developing a new version or improving the Kaveri engine for use in both the Tejas and Rafael




---------- Post added at 09:20 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:19 AM ----------

Broadsword: Kaveri engine comes alive; will power Indian fighters

Business Standard has learned that the MoD --- apprehending that Eurojet and GE would hang back from providing India with critical engine technologies, even if Transfer of Technology (ToT) was mandated in a purchase contract --- now wants to co-develop an engine in India rather than manufacturing one under licence. The DRDO&#8217;s Gas Turbine and Research Establishment (GTRE), which has a design partnership with French engine-maker, Snecma, has been asked to design a more powerful Kaveri successor.

*A Snecma-GTRE joint venture to develop the upgraded Kaveri is likely to be announced during President Nikolas Sarkozy&#8217;s visit to India in early 2010.*


Given the latest Announcement.
IF it happens Rafael has pretty much won this competition.
Securing its second largest order.

Plus the Rafael can be more easily inducted given its commonality with the IAF Mirage


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## marcos98

*Eurofighter chief urges more foreign sales*
(AFP) &#8211; 18 hours ago

FRANKFURT &#8212; The new head of the Eurofighter consortium has pressed member countries to do more to sell the combat jet abroad, in an German interview published on Monday.
"We need more contracts with support from the governments and a more coordinated support strategy," Enzo Casolini told the Financial Times Deutschland newspaper.
"Look at what Sarkozy has done for France," Casolini added in reference to efforts by the French president to sell Dassault's Rafale jet during recent trips to Brazil and the Middle East.
"Angela Merkel, Gordon Brown, Silvio Berlusconi and Jose Luis Zapatero should agree to similar actions," the aerospace executive said, referring to the heads of governments in Germany, Britain, Italy and Spain.
Those countries recently signed contracts for a third round of production that is to turn out 112 aircraft worth around nine billion euros (13 billion dollars).
But that will only ensure work until 2015, which "for a defence programme, is as though it is tomorrow. We must take care of subsequent years," Casolini said.
He added that 400 companies and 100,000 workers depended directly or indirectly on the pan-European project.
Austria and Saudi Arabia have already agreed to buy the Eurofighter, whereas France has yet to sell the Rafale to another country though it has sold other Dassault jets to Brazil, Greece, India, Lybia and Switzerland.


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## SSGPA1

vnomad said:


> P.S. If the MiG-35 is selected there are going to be _six_ very disappointed parties; the five others and me.



I am stating this without any bias - MiG will be the best platform for the IAF: 

1. ToT will be much easier giving IAF complete control over future designs etc.

2. Flow of spares will be much easier and with ToT, jobs can be created within India.

3. IAF is used to the MiGs and can work on further enhancements with the money saved by not using other tech.

4. US and EU companies will be like _banyaas_ and drink all juice out of the Indian economy.


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## rajeev

SSGPA1 said:


> I am stating this without any bias - MiG will be the best platform for the IAF:
> 
> 1. ToT will be much easier giving IAF complete control over future designs etc.
> 
> 2. Flow of spares will be much easier and with ToT, jobs can be created within India.
> 
> 3. IAF is used to the MiGs and can work on further enhancements with the money saved by not using other tech.
> 
> 4. US and EU companies will be like _banyaas_ and drink all juice out of the Indian economy.




No, dude. There is very little for India to gain by buying Mig-35. India has already signed PAKFA with Russia. I dont think even Russia thinks that India will buy its plane.

If India buys Rafael, India gets complete ToT including the software along with chances to get into fifth generation plane if France is going to build one.

If India buys Eurofighter, they offer almost a big chunk of ToT along with partnership to get in to build fifth generation plane.

If India buys F18SH, they offer strategic benefits and some window for American companies to invest in India. But with Obama, everything is up in air, as you know.

The other two planes, I dont think are even contendors because of lack of ToT and/or strategic benefits and/or long-term advantages.

Personally, my first preference is that India gets Eurofighter followed by Rafale.

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## vnomad

SSGPA1 said:


> I am stating this without any bias - MiG will be the best platform for the IAF:
> 
> 1. ToT will be much easier giving IAF complete control over future designs etc.
> 
> 2. Flow of spares will be much easier and with ToT, jobs can be created within India.
> 
> 3. IAF is used to the MiGs and can work on further enhancements with the money saved by not using other tech.
> 
> 4. US and EU companies will be like _banyaas_ and drink all juice out of the Indian economy.



All true, but couple of factors here.

1. While the Russians have been good allies for decades, its unwise to be completely dependent on one external supplier.

2. The Russians have been fingering the MoD on the Gorshkov issue for far too long. Even the Brahmos project faced a lot of issues on ToT from Russia.

3. Maintenance-wise western aircraft are generally a safer bet than Russian aircraft. Also, while Russia has lately been a pretty decent source of supplies, the west has a solid record on after-sales support(baring sanctions of course).

4. Finally performance; the MiG-35 is simply doesn't match up to its competitors(with the exception of the Gripen). The IAF would prefer to scrap the order and simply go for more Su-30MKIs which are roughly at par with the MiG-35(larger RCS but higher payload/range as well).


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## UchihaCG

Mig-35 w/ Thrust vectoring would be awesome........ + We love Russia =0


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## Iggy

Can we upgrade our MIG-29s to MIG 35 standard??


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## Hulk

seiko said:


> Can we upgrade our MIG-29s to MIG 35 standard??



There is an upgrade currently going on, not sure if we do another upgrade or not. I do not have details of current upgrade.


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## yashraj

Just Go For Euro fighter(200) Get TOT Become patner and also get Latest Anti air craft missiles and Get Its Trust Va. Engine and Convet Our Tejas in to 4++ Generation Plane...............

It's Vary Simple JUST DO IT YAAR................. WHY ARE WE WASTING SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO MUCH TIME.....

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## MANDEEP SINGH

hello everyone !
i am new to this forum.I am not experienced (jst in my college)as some guys here are..but I am vry much interested in defence sector.I have some querries.
1. As an multirole aircraft is Mig 35 better the F16 block 60,F18 sh, Rafale, Typhoon with its 3d thrust vectoring engine and Zukh ae aesa radar with a range of 160 km....?
If we select Mig 35, will a MKI'ed version(like SU 30 MKI) will be better then others or not?
What I have read so far is that Mig 35 is also not expensive like Typhoon ....we can get 2 Mig 35 for each Typhoon...I know quality is very Imortant but quantity can play an impt role as our strength is going down.....
2.As an aircraft which one is better Rafale or Typhoon?
3.Can you plz tell the price per plane of all the contenders?
I am sorry if I asked a stupid question but i am new here and want to know more....
thanks in advance


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## yashraj

MANDEEP SINGH said:


> hello everyone !
> i am new to this forum.I am not experienced (jst in my college)as some guys here are..but I am vry much interested in defence sector.I have some querries.
> 1. As an multirole aircraft is Mig 35 better the F16 block 60,F18 sh, Rafale, Typhoon with its 3d thrust vectoring engine and Zukh ae aesa radar with a range of 160 km....?
> If we select Mig 35, will a MKI'ed version(like SU 30 MKI) will be better then others or not?
> What I have read so far is that Mig 35 is also not expensive like Typhoon ....we can get 2 Mig 35 for each Typhoon...I know quality is very Imortant but quantity can play an impt role as our strength is going down.....
> 2.As an aircraft which one is better Rafale or Typhoon?
> 3.Can you plz tell the price per plane of all the contenders?
> I am sorry if I asked a stupid question but i am new here and want to know more....
> thanks in advance



Hi MANDEEP......

Well come to the bord. We Required many youngster like you who are really intrested in the Defence sector...

some of your anwers.......
1) Yes you can buy 2 Mig 35 in the Cost of one Euro Fighter But In the Sky the thing really matter is Quality....
You can see the result of 1991 Gulf war where Saddam Has Qunt.. but USA have Quality of their Side and see what Happend.....
2)Quality wise Eurofighter is Batter then Rafel, but Logistic and TOT wise Rafel is Batter.......But You can Directly use the Engine in our LCA Mark-2(250). Our LCA mark 2 is 4++ Generation fighter Able to Do Super Cruse and With Trust Vactoring And Lower RCA with AESA radar it's hell of a fighter at 30M $.
So you Can compair the prise of EF this Way.....
And ya EF Has Lowest Maintanance Price...

Sooooo JUST GO FOR THE EF(EURO FIGHTER)


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## Haanzo

^^^ get a life
1 please find out what really happened in gulf war - IN SHORT AWACS 
2 who said rafale is gonna be better logistics wise ???? HOW ?? and how can lca supercruise - or what is the point of supercruising for a point defence fighter or an interceptor ??

please know some facts before posting


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## yashraj

Haanzo said:


> ^^^ get a life
> 1 please find out what really happened in gulf war - IN SHORT AWACS
> 2 who said rafale is gonna be better logistics wise ???? HOW ?? and how can lca supercruise - or what is the point of supercruising for a point defence fighter or an interceptor ??
> 
> please know some facts before posting



Sir ji please calm down............

1) In the opening night of the gulf War F15 shot down many of the Saddams Migs.... and they didn't loss any F15......

2) Without Super cruse any Fighter can not Fly Supersonic CONTINUASLY............. Jets are useing their AFTER BURNER for Short Perioud of Time. And This Supercruse ability Really help Our Fighter to Reach Their target Vary fast(For point Defence) and Going to Enemy teretory Fast and After attach come to home fast Super sonically without use of After burner(That means less fule burn and vary less heat signature for heat seaking Missile) help for Strick roal...

3) We can directly use engine of Euro fighter for Our Tejas mark-2, and get following Ability
* Great and Realiable Engine.
* Super Cruse ability(Because >1 trust to Weight ratio)
* Trust vactoring Capability (Which really Help in Dog fight)

Please correct me if i am wrong.....

Thank you Sir ji.

3)


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## saurav

best way imo--
divide the vendors---
EURO FIGHTER--~120-130
SUPER HORNET-- ~100

feel free to disagree

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## yashraj

saurav said:


> best way imo--
> divide the vendors---
> EURO FIGHTER--~120-130
> SUPER HORNET-- ~100
> 
> feel free to disagree



That's not good thing yaar..............

Two diff plane that means double logistic cost, double spare and maintanance cost and if we test our nuclear bomb then america will stop the support of spairs...........

My Choise is buy 200 EF become patner in it and also use its Thrust Vactoring Engine For Our 4++ Generation Plane TEJAS(250+)...


That's really Good Choise....... Feel free to disagree.....


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## jha

imho buying sh will have a commonality between air-force and navy..because navy also needs ~40 aircrafts for its own needs...


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## AVIAN

In my opinion, IAF should certainly go for F-16 Block 70, since it is the only jet that can sufficiently cover all IAF specification of light weight catagory fighter jet coupled with AESA alongwith unmatched kind of a Armoury.


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## yashraj

AVIAN said:


> In my opinion, IAF should certainly go for F-16 Block 70, since it is the only jet that can sufficiently cover all IAF specification of light weight catagory fighter jet coupled with AESA alongwith unmatched kind of a Armoury.



NO..........
That's really Bed Idia.........
1) It's vary old Air Craft. Ya it's new block of F 16..... But It's Really Old Air Craft......

2) Pakistan Air Force Alrealy Operate it.... In fect They are operating them From Last 4 decade, So they Know This air craft vary well,.... In fect they know this air craft as good as any USA Pilot do.

3) For IAF Even MIG 35 is batter choice then F 16.

But My personal openioun Go for Euro Fighter Or my secound choice is Rafel. But If i Know Indian Goverment then Winner of this cometion is F 18 Super Hornet


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## SSGPA1

I see that most of the Indians want to go for teh EU tech. I think your MRCA decision will have a lot of politics involved in it.

First if you annoy Russia then Russia will annoy you by improving their military terms with Pakistan. I don't think India is willing to lose that leverage with Russia.

Second, USA has been investing in the Indian economy for a while now and actually prepared the Indian ecomnomy to support the US economy , specifically the defence industry. Economy and defence industry are at low right now in the US and India will play its role in the revival of the US economy.

I believe that MRCA will be used by the GoI to increase its influence in the US and to maintain its influence in Russia. End result will be a mix of fighter jets and some ToT. It will be a pain (waste to a certain extent) in the military terms but a gain in the political terms.

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## Dash

Hi All -
I have been reading this forum for last 1 year and i really respect you guys out there for your dedication, committment and most of all knowledge.

Regarding the MRCA deal. here I submit my first openion.
Lets see what options we have.
IMO India as a country is currently in a phase where it needs the best available systems in the world to keep up with our growing geo-political situation and most importantly our internal needs for indigenisation. As we know that our military tech scetor is not that advanced when compared west or atleast china in terms of R&D and implimentation (feel free to disagree), we in this MRCA deal (The think tanks and dicision makers) will be trying to get a system where they can
A. test multiple platforms and see what best can be done done to match up.
B. The best to offer us help in terms of TOT and enhance our capability to support our efforts to become self suffecient.

IMO, being self suffecient is the MOST important thing that our decision makers will be thinking of.
So in this case the platform which can secure us with technology should be the most favored one along with political advantage of getting more as a spin off and securing future deals.
Now coming to this I would say we have all the contendors have the same thing.
A. US - though has guaranteed to meet 50% offset, but we dont know what is the 50%, if key tech then fine if not then no use. here comes the factor of trust which we dont have on US.
B. EF consortium- They have cleared the transfer of Key tech to India if the plane wins the BID.
C. France - Now close to develop the Kaveri engine with DRDO.
D. Russia - Same as US and EF consortium.

However a lot of people say that one that wins the DRDO contract for Tejas engine will win the MRCA. However I see this deal is for for some engines to make tejas Mk2 and in future like we all know these engines are just a stop gap check and will not be used instead Kaveri will be used for all the tejas fighters. I have some confident that this engine dream will come true as snechma along with P&W have said that kaveri has potential to become world class.
And Snechma has agreed to fit kaveri engine to Rafale.

France has been a strategic partner to India and supports UN seat for us, I know there are some issues cropping up due to its price for upgrading Mirages. However if Indian situation is concerned, this can be ignored as india can find a better country to upgrade this (israel) and this set back on French company can be compromised when Snechma develops the kaveri. I have a faith after Kaveri is on then this can take over entire Indian IAF fleet, now that its supposed power MCA. The current infrastructure we have with Mirage will go well with Rafale and its not a bad aircraft. French can be trusted with good TOT and this will keep us independent of any fear of sanctions too.

IMO all other contendors are providing short team solution but with this bird we have some future. i am sure rafale has impressed IAF and if its cost is concerned(which is a bit too high) but looking at the high end purchases india has made, like CJ-130 superhercules, P8I and possible globemaster, I think MOD can ignore the same and go ahead with this peice of bird..which is Rafale.

You never know Navy might opt for this too.......

Cheers
Dash

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## deckingraj

SSGPA1 said:


> I see that most of the Indians want to go for teh EU tech. I think your MRCA decision will have a lot of politics involved in it.


There are many people who think that lot of politics is involved...However people just fail to acknowledge that this is the first defence procurement where an open tender with specifications and rigorous ground trial is taking place...As far as politics is concerned then yes whoever will give us a better deal will win providing the fighter jet have answers to all the major concerns that IAF has...




> First if you annoy Russia then Russia will annoy you by improving their military terms with Pakistan. I don't think India is willing to lose that leverage with Russia.


Exactly these kind of remarks are often associated with MRCA...Why can't people understand MRCA is one of the defence deals that India is doing...Indian defence market is way too big...We are planning to spend around $40 Billion in just procurements alone over next 5 years...Secondly did you miss the 10 years arms pact with Russia that our PM signed in his recent trip???



> Second, USA has been investing in the Indian economy for a while now and actually prepared the Indian ecomnomy to support the US economy , specifically the defence industry. Economy and defence industry are at low right now in the US and India will play its role in the revival of the US economy.



Kewl...so we are nothing but US puppets who are a platform to revive US economy???



> I believe that MRCA will be used by the GoI to increase its influence in the US and to maintain its influence in Russia. End result will be a mix of fighter jets and some ToT. It will be a pain (waste to a certain extent) in the military terms but a gain in the political terms.



Indian think tanks are not kids...They use logic to come up with procurements....If mixing the jets will serve our purpose we will do that...However if we go by recent reports then IAF is not very inclined to do that...


P.S : It is not the final deal that GOI has made... It is not like people are saying give me this deal or face consequences.... $10 billion is quite a amount to be donated to someone...We will buy what suits us and not the other way....

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## sarthak

I have a feeling that we will be discussing this issue for a long , long time.


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## Storm Force

Russian Influence on Indian defense deals is absolutely HUGE. 

mmrca is just a drop in the ocean. 

PAK FA FGFA alone is worth $20billion over 20 years
Throw in nuke sub development aihant/akula new hyper sonic cruise missles 
new ABM systems and new transport planes all of these are massive joint projects between india & russia. 

mmrca is one of 40 different projects. AND WILL GO TO USA or Europe

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## pakpower

I have a feeling that F-18 SH will gonna win this tender.


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## Hulk

I share your feeling.


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## jha

i feel we will be discussing this for at least 1 more year...too long thread dont you think?


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## yashraj

pakpower said:


> I have a feeling that F-18 SH will gonna win this tender.



That's 100 % correct feeling.

I have Inside News(From my friend who is working in Delhi in side procurement department) any Yes F18SH is Winning..

And india is Going to buy 280 SH

220 for the IAF and 60 for the Indian Navy

All this planes are inducted befor 2018.


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## gogbot

yashraj said:


> That's 100 % correct feeling.
> 
> I have Inside News(From my friend who is working in Delhi in side procurement department) any Yes F18SH is Winning..
> 
> And india is Going to buy 280 SH
> 
> 220 for the IAF and 60 for the Indian Navy
> 
> All this planes are inducted befor 2018.



Well if what your saying is true.

then it can pretty much be assured that the LCA will use the GE-414.


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## sudhir007

yashraj said:


> That's 100 % correct feeling.
> 
> I have Inside News(From my friend who is working in Delhi in side procurement department) any Yes F18SH is Winning..
> 
> And india is Going to buy 280 SH
> 
> 220 for the IAF and 60 for the Indian Navy
> 
> All this planes are inducted befor 2018.


hi yash it is impossible to get 220 or 280 a/c at 2018 coze if the contact sign next yr the Ist sqn. come at 26 month later it mean around 2013 so did you think with in five yr we can produce 200-280 what ever no. you given too.... it mean around 40 plane per yr.


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## Dash

If SH18 is winning then, the first thing IAF had in mind is to strengthen its ground attack capabilities. As we all know this plane is not that great when it comes to manuoverability and its main task was to crush ground targets. 
So SU 30 MKI - For airsuperiority
LCA- Interception and escorting
SH 18 - Ground attack.

Feel free to comment..


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## MZUBAIR

Any *New Deadline *for final selection. 

2005,6,7,8 and now 2009 going..... 

Best of luck if India finalize deal in 2010


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## vnomad

MZUBAIR said:


> Any *New Deadline *for final selection.
> 
> 2005,6,7,8 and now 2009 going.....
> 
> Best of luck if India finalize deal in 2010



True, but the value of the contract has also been proportionally increasing; started at $6 billion, was estimated at $8 billion in 2007-08 and this financial year about $10.5 billion was officially sanctioned for procurement. The final value of the aircraft(incl. the 74 add. ones) is likely to be almost $14 billion(even higher if the EF/Rafale is ordered).


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## T-50

i think Europen should get the Order, India dont want to upset the Russians, So Safe bet is European, and we should learn from PAK exp. US can place sanctions anytime on any matter, tomorrow some uS president wake and say hey " India is get sanction because India still using paper work and not computerized " 

Lol , US is the only country which is very unreliable, due to this Navy Stealth ship got delayed by 1 year ... becasue India got Sanction by Obama when he become president.....

Europeans are best , if any indian babus are not corrupted by US CIA , then European should win...


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## yashraj

sudhir007 said:


> hi yash it is impossible to get 220 or 280 a/c at 2018 coze if the contact sign next yr the Ist sqn. come at 26 month later it mean around 2013 so did you think with in five yr we can produce 200-280 what ever no. you given too.... it mean around 40 plane per yr.



Boing and India both will produce planes.

Boing is astablish their manufaturing plant in india.
first 20 planes and to be manufatured in USA. mean while the manufaturing proces will start in india.
So in 8 Years 280 target is achiveble.


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## sudhir007

yashraj said:


> Boing and India both will produce planes.
> 
> Boing is astablish their manufaturing plant in india.
> first 20 planes and to be manufatured in USA. mean while the manufaturing proces will start in india.
> So in 8 Years 280 target is achiveble.



40plane is very big task and i dnt think in India it is easy to establish plant and built it will take time you can see HAL has around more then 30 yr industrial setup even they cann't built in this kind of rate...........Did you think it is easy for boing to come and make ?????


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## gogbot

sudhir007 said:


> 40plane is very big task and i dnt think in India it is easy to establish plant and built it will take time you can see HAL has around more then 30 yr industrial setup even they cann't built in this kind of rate...........Did you think it is easy for boing to come and make ?????



then why bother or even try to make any announcement,

Easy or not that's what their said they are aiming for. And that's whats i believe is written in the requirements.


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## Red Dwarf

*MMRCA flight test evaluation by April: IAF chief*​
Satara (Mah), Dec 28 (PTI) The Indian Air Force will complete flight test evaluation for the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) by April next year, Air Chief Marshal Pradeep Naik said.

"We will complete flight test evaluation for these aircraft by April...the report would then be sent to the government," the Air Chief told PTI.

The IAF has been holding trials for its USD 10-billion Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft tenders in which US' Boeing and Lockheed Martin, French D'Assault, Swedish SAAB, European consortium EADS and Russian MiG are contenders.

"The evaluation report would be discussed by the Cabinet Committee on Security, after which the process of awarding contract would be initiated," he said.

"The aircraft would be in service by 2013," he added.

PTI-Press Trust of India


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## Storm Force

THE DATE FOR END OF mmrca was May 2010 i thought. 

For those critics who are saying india is taking fior ever

BETTER to be safe then sorry with $12billion deal. 

LET INDIA FULLY TEST EACH PLANE FIRST 

ITSA SMART MOVE

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## sudhir007

Google Translate

*Fedorov did not rule out the possibility of declaring multiple winners of the tender to supply India's 126 multi-role fighter*

Moscow, on December, 28th, (&#225;&#211;&#188;&#223;-TASS). On results of the tender for delivery of India 126 average multi-purpose fighters in which Russia participates with &#1052;iG-35, some winners can be chosen. Such point of view was stated journalists by chairman of board of Open Society " Incorporated aviabuilding corporation " (&#1054;&#1040;&#1050 Alexey Fedorov.
" There were cases when in the complex tender, with a lot of participants and volume of prospective purchases, some winners " got out at once, - has told Feodors.
It has refused to predict, when competition can come to the end. " It very complex, I do not undertake to predict date of its end, and the Indian party, I think cannot while it to make ", - have explained Feodors.
As he said, in the middle of current year the second stage of the tender where opportunities of its participants were shown in flight all has come to the end. &#1052;&#1080;&#1043;-35 has received flatter estimations of the customer.
As chapter &#1054;&#1040;&#1050;, as the positive moment for the Russian party considers, capable positively to affect results of the tender, there can be a beginning of deliveries of ship fighters &#1052;&#1080;&#1043;-29&#1050; to India.
"There were times when in a complex tender, with a large number of participants and volume of anticipated purchases, select multiple winners," - Fedorov said.

"It is very complex and not attempt to predict the date of its completion, and the Indian side, I think can not yet do so," - said Fedorov.

According to him, in the middle of this year, the second stage of the tender, which were demonstrated in flight all the possibilities of its members. MiG-35 was flattering assessment of the customer.

According to the head of the KLA, a positive development for Russia's part, able to positively influence the outcome of the tender, can become the beginning of the supply ship of MiG-29K fighters to India.

"Since the MiG-35 incorporated many design and technological solutions, used to ship the MiG-29, it can become a positive factor. The customer has the opportunity to touch, see and evaluate how it works," - Fedorov said.


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## Peace Sells no one buying

Hello all. I've been thoroughly enjoying this discussion. I do have some concerns though . . . none bigger than the issue that this contract may, inevitably, be given to the company that decides to give the best 'incentive' package. Ideally the best plane for the job would win. Right? I don't think this is going to happen. Of course, another issue needs to be dealt with. Specifically that significant downsides exist with taking ANY of the planes.

It's impressive, generous even, that a large MNC (Multinational Corporation) like Boeing would even consider opening up a plant in India. (within the context of an incentive package -- I am well aware of the thousands of MNC's that already exist and thrive in India. And India should rightfully be proud of her achievements) This would, no doubt, create jobs and offer an implicit degree of self-determination to India for this project. The downside would be the fact that Boeing is an American company -- and at the whims of American policy. While relations between the two nations have improved leaps and bounds since the 1970s and the 1990s (tests), I remain wary.

As has been mentioned here earlier, the US may be able to break down the chain of support and advice on these planes at any point. (There are a lot of Iranian F-14's out there that could use some shop time, for example) Furthermore, the ToT on some systems is still pending approval from the bureaucracy inherent in their (I guess, technically "my") legal system. These are variables that I would not bank on, nor should India tender a $$$ multi-billion dollar contract to without first ironing out these details.

Essentially, the American planes that India is being sold may be items the sellers can't guarantee. (kid next door is selling you his dad's TV, you agree to it, but then after you give the money his dad says that we don't agree to give you the TV) It's not that simple, but it's still not receiving all that was promised. 

India's military has been attempting to be indigenous for some time now, giving control to another nation (in this case, USA) on such a big ticket item would be an abject step in the wrong direction.

Now, I've dedicated a lot of time talking about the potential problems with an American offer -- but each offer is filled with pluses and minuses as well. 

For example, let's look at the mythical offer of Su-35's. Even the idea of receiving Su-35 MKI's (two seats, canards, thrust vectoring, allowed to put in tech from other nations, etc), over the standard Su-30's, would perhaps not be enough. Over the last few years India has pumped much capital into the Russian economy -- and the deals continue to become even more lopsided. (Look at the purchase of the Russian carrier) The rupee goes far in Russia, but apparently not as far as it should. Furthermore, much of India's armed forces is already very Russian. (Arjun tank problems led to buying Russian tanks, etc) Anchoring India to Russia could be a negative in the long run.

I could go on and on about each offer, but I will stop here for now.

Thank you all, and hopefully this post was of some value.

ps. I do not know who will win, nor do I have a favorite. I need to know more of how these planes fare in the trials before I can develop stronger feelings about them.


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## sancho

Peace Sells no one buying said:


> Hello all. I've been thoroughly enjoying this discussion. I do have some concerns though . . . none bigger than the issue that this contract may, inevitably, be given to the company that decides to give the best 'incentive' package. Ideally the best plane for the job would win. Right? I don't think this is going to happen....


MMRCA is too big to find a winner only by seeing it from a single point of view. The IAF might want the best fighter that suits it's present fleet, but the MoD of course will try to get some additional advantages like techs for LCA, or fighters for IN. GoI instead will try to get political advantages in terms of stratigic partnerships, closer ties in war on terror, or an UNC seat and not to forget that there will be an economical side in that competition too. Many Indian companies hopes for jv with foreign counter parts and such a competition with a high offset clause, is of course important for them too.
It will be the package that will win and not a single advantage, with imo advantages for US in the political and economical field and benefits for Rafale and EF from IAF/MoD point of view, because Europe can simply offer way more ToT and co-developments.

My feeling of Rafale winning MMRCA gets stronger and stronger after new interests of a Kaveri-Snecma engine development and the great results of Rafale in UAE simulations.

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## RPK

Upgraded Eurofighter offered to Indian Air Force

New Delhi, Jan 4 (IANS) European aerospace conglomerate EADS, the manufacturer of the Eurofighter Typhoon, has aggressively pushed for an Indian Air Force (IAF) order for 126 combat jets by offering the plane with a thrust vector upgrade that will considerably improve its operational capabilities.
The upgrade will pay for itself through life cycle cost reductions, an EADS statement said Monday.

Equipping the twin-engine Typhoon&#8217;s EJ200s with *thrust vectoring nozzles (TVNs)* could reduce fuel burn on a typical mission by up to 5 percent while increasing available thrust in supersonic cruise mode by up to 7 percent, the statement added.

Thrust vectoring would &#8220;improve agility, survivability, manoeuvrability and the aircraft&#8217;s ability to carry an asymmetric weapons load. It also reduces trim drag and therefore, fuel consumption&#8221;, the statement pointed out.

The Eurofighter Typhoon is one of the six jets in contention for the IAF order, which could eventually rise to some 200 planes. The flight trials of the six aircraft are currently underway in India and are set to conclude later this month after which, another set of trials will be conducted in the country of manufacture.

Thereafter, the IAF will shortlist two or three aircraft before homing in on the final choice.

The first 18 aircraft will be bought in a flyaway condition and the remaining will be manufactured in India through the transfer of technology route by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).

The Boeing F/A-18 Super Hornet, the Lockheed Martin F-16I Super Viper (both from the US), the French Rafale, the Swedish Gripen and the Russian MiG-35 are the other aircraft in the fray.

According to the EADS statement, the biggest operational benefit of thrust vectoring &#8220;*is the speed that it gives in super cruise mode, because obviously the pilots are very keen on low observability at high speed&#8221;.
*
&#8220;Seven to eight percent more thrust in super cruise mode is quite a remarkable achievement and it adds to the operators&#8217; delight. This would give the aircraft an edge over its rivals in combat as well as in getaway situations,&#8221; the statement added.

It also pointed out that while thrust vectoring promises operational advantages, &#8220;one has to look at life cycle costs as well. The importance is that the manufacturers should bring about both thrust increase and low life cycle costs&#8221;.

Read more: Upgraded Eurofighter offered to Indian Air Force

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## sudhir007

*U.S. fighter bids for India hit tech-transfer snag*

U.S. fighter bids for India hit tech-transfer snag | Reuters

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A split in the Pentagon over how much cutting-edge technology to share with India is complicating bids by Lockheed Martin Corp (LMT.N) and Boeing Co (BA.N) for a potential $10 billion fighter jet contract.

At issue, among other things, is advanced radar know-how India wants as part of any deal for the 126 new fighter jets it plans to buy from one of six global aerospace powerhouses, say current and former Pentagon officials.

Detailed offers from all bidders are due to be submitted to the Indian defense ministry by March 3.

The contenders come from Russia, Europe and the United States. If the deal goes to Americans, it would crown a post-Cold War trend toward tighter U.S.-Indian security ties, a potential counterweight to China's growing might.

Lockheed Martin and Boeing -- the Pentagon's No. 1 and No. 2 suppliers by sales -- were invited by India for the first time to bid to supply fighters.

Lockheed Martin is proposing a version of its widely sold F-16 Fighting Falcon but has not made public any detail of which radar it will offer.

Boeing has said it is pursuing U.S. government approval to sell its F/A-18 Super Hornet "Block 2" strike attack aircraft, used by the U.S. Navy and Australia. It is equipped with what Boeing has called "ground-breaking" Raytheon Co (RTN.N) APG-79 Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar.

Also in the race: Russia's MiG 35, France's Dassault Rafale, Sweden's Saab AB (SAABb.ST) JAS-39 Gripen and the Eurofighter Typhoon, made by a consortium of British, German, Italian and Spanish companies.

"There's advocates and non-advocates" of meeting India's hopes for maximum radar technology-transfer and co-production, said a senior U.S. Air Force official, who declined to be named.

Asked about deliberations on licensing the so-called AESA radars for export to India, U.S. Navy Secretary Donald Winter told the Reuters Aerospace and Defense Summit: "I know that that's under consideration."

"There's a very well detailed process that is followed by the department (of defense) that I'm not expert on, and I would defer to those who are," Winter said on Wednesday.

The trade-offs involved in U.S. reviews are complex. They include business pressure to make Lockheed and Boeing as competitive as possible while protecting a key U.S. war fighting technology.

"The Indians want as much co-production and as much technology transfer as they can get," said retired Air Force Lt. Gen. Jeffrey Kohler, who stepped down in August as the Pentagon's top arms-sale official. "The U.S. government has to decide how far it will go toward meeting India's requests."

"I think this a very critical decision that needs the attention of top government officials," said Kohler, now an unpaid advisor to the private U.S.-India Business Council.

Ron Somers, president of the council that represents 275 of the biggest U.S. companies investing in India, referred to India's fighter market as "a tremendous opportunity for U.S. companies that should not be missed."

"We hope the U.S. government will get its act together," Somers said by telephone. "Time is of the essence if we hope to compete with foreign companies for this hugely important deal."

Lockheed Martin and Boeing declined to comment on the U.S. government's delay in approving their India packages, as did the Indian embassy in Washington.

Bob Gower, vice president of Boeing's F/A-18 program, said Boeing was confident the U.S. government ultimately will clear release of the APG-79 radar.

"The F/A-18 has an advantage in that we are the only airplane in the competition with a fielded production AESA radar," Gower said in a written response last month to questions from Reuters. "I like our competitive position on the AESA radar."

AESA presents many military advantages, boosting pilots awareness of any threats, according to William Ostrove, a radar market analyst at Forecast International, an aerospace consultancy in Newton, Connecticut.

"The United States has the most advanced AESA technology in the world," he said. "No other country currently has an AESA radar in production."

The United States already has sent AESA technology to Singapore and the United Arab Emirates, but they did not demand as much access to the underlying know-how as India has done, Ostrove said.

Washington might resolve its AESA-related dilemma by clearing a "dumbed down" version, he said. Substituting a less powerful processor, for instance, would make it less capable than one now flown by U.S. Navy F/A-18E/F Super Hornet pilots.

"This would allow the Indians to build the radar themselves while preventing the most advanced American technology from leaving the country," Ostrove said.

As part of a strategic initiative designed to cement new

security ties, President Bush in March 2005 gave Boeing and Lockheed the nod to sell advanced fighters to India.

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## sancho

sudhir007 said:


> The United States already has sent AESA technology to Singapore and the United Arab Emirates, but they did not demand as much access to the underlying know-how as India has done, Ostrove said.
> 
> Washington might resolve its AESA-related dilemma by clearing a *"dumbed down" version*, he said. *Substituting a less powerful processor, for instance, would make it less capable* than one now flown by U.S. Navy F/A-18E/F Super Hornet pilots.
> 
> "This would allow the Indians to build the radar themselves while preventing the most advanced American technology from leaving the country," Ostrove said.


So the question will be, how capable will be this "dumbed down" US AESA, compared to Russian and European AESA radars, that won't be so limited?


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## Dark Angel

*Well i say hell no these "World Saver" thinking retards (US)
when u have the funds available show them their right place we have most advanced opt like EF,Rafale ect why even take this risk and repent in the future like our neighbouring bros *


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## Chanakyaa

Yesterday I had a chat with my friend again whose father is involved in the Evaluations.
He states that SH18 is almost confirm, but The order my be split to accommodate a few Rafales.

EF was the best or Even Rafales, had the cost been lower.

Lets wait n watch.


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## Hulk

sancho said:


> So the question will be, how capable will be this "dumbed down" US AESA, compared to Russian and European AESA radars, that won't be so limited?



I think we should do this.
Select F18 and get the latest ASEA radar for it.
If they cannot give us TOT for ASEA completly then take TOT on dumbed down ASEA if that is worth it and try develop over it.
Delink both.


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## gogbot

indianrabbit said:


> I think we should do this.
> Select F18 and get the latest ASEA radar for it.
> If they cannot give us TOT for ASEA completly then take TOT on dumbed down ASEA if that is worth it and try develop over it.
> Delink both.



The Americans will never give us enough ToT to develop anything.

We are better of Partnering with Europeans. at least they give us JV options.

The only jet worth buying from America is the F-35, Even then only if we get the ability to service the craft yourself. and have a reliable source of Spares.


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## Hulk

gogbot said:


> The Americans will never give us enough ToT to develop anything.
> 
> We are better of Partnering with Europeans. at least they give us JV options.
> 
> The only jet worth buying from America is the F-35, Even then only if we get the ability to service the craft yourself. and have a reliable source of Spares.



Get ready.
F18 is going to win MRCA for sure 100%. Start thinking in that line.
F18 is the only one having actiev ASEA radar.


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## gogbot

indianrabbit said:


> Get ready.
> F18 is going to win MRCA for sure 100%. Start thinking in that line.
> F18 is the only one having actiev ASEA radar.



Well then we shouldn't expect any gaming changing tech from the US.

Apart from the Ability to produce the F-18's in India. which i suppose adds to the development expertise a little.

Honestly play hardball with the Americans make them think we are going Europe to squeeze out a Little more tech


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## Kinshuk

gogbot said:


> Well then we shouldn't expect any gaming changing tech from the US.
> 
> Apart from the Ability to produce the F-18's in India. which i suppose adds to the development expertise a little.
> 
> Honestly play hardball with the Americans make them think we are going Europe to squeeze out a Little more tech



I have a gut feeling that GOI will split the order. Cost? That doesn't matter to them, it is just to make a fool out of Indian citizen.

Rafale and F 18 SH is going to be selected. They want US any how and this is one of the opportunities for them to tap. Though i don't like States much, Even if we get 60 70 Rafale and 100 SH, i don't care, At least I am satisfied. SH may be not master of none, but it is jack of all. So I am satified. sorry but I was born selfish.


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## jha

i would like to see the same but rafale replaced by eurofighter with aesa...


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## Hulk

gogbot said:


> Well then we shouldn't expect any gaming changing tech from the US.
> 
> Apart from the Ability to produce the F-18's in India. which i suppose adds to the development expertise a little.
> 
> Honestly play hardball with the Americans make them think we are going Europe to squeeze out a Little more tech



Dude fyi, Boeing has offered a lot to India, not everything is in open. do not underestimate Indians when it comes to bargain.

In fact Boeing is increasing its presence in India and will add to some knowledge transfer to Indians.

We are not getting a bad deal trust me.


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## Kinshuk

jha said:


> i would like to see the same but rafale replaced by eurofighter with aesa...



Eurofighter? 

What do you like about it? lets get personal for sometime. It doesn't even have AESA and not sure when they are going to make it operational. Sold so many though not yet qualified for Ground attack. WTF

Where are they going with it? Rafale had operational AESA during trials when it was sent to India.


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## vnomad

Kinshuk said:


> Eurofighter?
> 
> What do you like about it? lets get personal for sometime.



Agility, maneuverability, supercruise, low observability etc.



> It doesn't even have AESA and not sure when they are going to make it operational.



It has a flight tested AESA. The EF GmbH is offering an aircraft with the production variant of the CAESAR.



> Sold so many though not yet qualified for Ground attack.



Has had a ground attack capability for quite a while now. Had a long debate with Sancho over this... you'll find all links about 3-4 pages back.



> There are they going with it? Rafale had operational AESA during trials when it was sent to India.



That was an operating AESA but not an operational AESA. The RBE2-AA is scheduled to enter service only after 2012.


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## jha

thanks vnomad for answering....
anyways i would certainly not like to see india paying double or more than that of the price for upgrades....also i said euro with aesa....read the posts carefully then go personal


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## Peace Sells no one buying

Super Hornet does not have much going for it, regarding top speed -- and it's a far cry from their technology demonstrator (the F-18 HARV) when it comes to handling. Right now their purpoted radar is the best -- getting a 'dumbed down' version of it is an insult to the money India is willing to pay for the product.

I know that the USA would have issues with ToT; this and the potential lack of future support (if India does something the USA doesn't like -- or more likely, India does something that some other nation that the USA owes a lot of money to doesn't like -- then we can forget it, and ask Iran how those F-14's are working out) makes a US Fighter a tricky issue to navigate.

If the Boeing attempts to sell a 'dumbed down' version then India should counter with a 'dumbed down' price.


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## sancho

XiNiX said:


> Yesterday I had a chat with my friend again whose father is involved in the Evaluations.
> He states that SH18 is almost confirm, but The order my be split to accommodate a few Rafales.


Hard to believe, because of no commonality and rising costs.


XiNiX said:


> EF was the best or Even Rafales, had the cost been lower.


How can somebody say EF was the best, if it wasn't even in India for the trials?


indianrabbit said:


> I think we should do this.
> Select F18 and get the latest ASEA radar for it.
> If they cannot give us TOT for ASEA completly then take TOT on dumbed down ASEA if that is worth it and try develop over it.
> Delink both.


First of all,the article says that we won't get the latest AESA and if we get radar ToT it will only of the less capable. Why should we pay so much and still try to develop the techs, if we have so many other options?

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## sancho

vnomad said:


> *Agility, maneuverability*, supercruise, low observability etc.


Already available through MKI, so no real points for IAF. And the last simulations in UAE seems to show that the Rafale aren't much behind EF, if at all.


vnomad said:


> It has a flight tested AESA. The EF GmbH is offering an aircraft with the production variant of the CAESAR.


Still a long way to go to that goal, latest news from a German forum, UK wants their Selsex swashplate AESA (that is available for Gripen NG too), Germany wants fixed AESA (for obvious reasons, because swashplate is against initial intention of AESA) , ITA still says no AESA needed. Decision about a possible AESA is now further delayed from end of dec, to somewhere in first quarter of 2010. Operational AESA in 2013? Hard to believe!


vnomad said:


> Has had a ground attack capability for quite a while now. Had a long debate with Sancho over this... you'll find all links about 3-4 pages back.


Yes and as I said before, it's actually nowhere near to be comparable with Rafale, or F18s capabilities in this role.
Latest news about Tranche 3, it should get AESA (see above), HMS, TVC and Meteor. Other weapons on customer request! Anything else is still unsure, especially because the tranche is splited into 3A and 3B, so the useful weapons could come way later, or not at all.


vnomad said:


> That was an operating AESA but not an operational AESA. The RBE2-AA is scheduled to enter service only after 2012.


Which is still 2 years before the first MMRCA fighter will be delivered and one year before the EF AESA is intended to be integrated in consortium fighters. Sounds good to me!

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## gogbot

indianrabbit said:


> Dude fyi, Boeing has offered a lot to India, not everything is in open. do not underestimate Indians when it comes to bargain.
> 
> In fact Boeing is increasing its presence in India and will add to some knowledge transfer to Indians.
> 
> We are not getting a bad deal trust me.



Dude i am well aware what Boeing has to offer.



> The U.S. Navy operates over 340 F/A-18E/F Super Hornets (with 411 on order), and is presently the only user of the aircraft. Australia is buying 24 F/A-18Fs, and Boeing is trying to gain other contracts as well. The MMRCA contract represents a prime opportunity for U.S. defence companies to gain a foothold in the Indian defence market, which is estimated to be about US$100 billion in the next 10 years.
> 
> Initially, the Request for Information (RFI) was not issued to Boeing, which decided to field the Super Hornet. The U.S. Government allowed Boeing to participate in the RFI, and later gave permission for RFP (Request For Proposal) as well. However, any sale of aircraft will need to be approved by the U.S. Congress.
> 
> Initial reactions within the IAF were enthusiastic, although there were apprehensions of support issues in case of future sanctions. There were concern over the availability of the Super Hornet's APG-79 AESA radar, but export of the radar has been approved by the U.S. government. The US has stated that there would be some restrictions and pre-conditions for the purchase of the aircraft.
> 
> On 24 April 2008, Boeing (through the U.S. Embassy in New Delhi) submitted their 7000-page proposal to the Ministry of Defence, before the April 28 deadline for the submission for proposals. The Super Hornet variant being offered to India, the F/A-18IN, is based on the F/A-18E/F model flown by the U.S. Navy and currently being built for the Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF). Raytheon's APG-79 AESA radar is being offered on the aircraft. There will be a limited ToT on the radar, up to the level approved by the US Government. However, Raytheon has stated that the level of ToT offered will be compliant with the RFP requirements. Delivery of the first F/A-18IN Super Hornets can begin approximately 36 months after contract award.
> 
> *Boeing has proposed joint manufacture of the jets with Indian partners. It also plans to offset the cost by setting up a US$100 million maintenance and training hub in Nagpur. This is the first time the Super Hornet has been offered for production in a foreign country.On 14 February 2008, Boeing and Tata Industries agreed to form a joint-venture company. The new entity, which will be formed in June 2008, will supply components for Boeing military aircraft, including the Super Hornet, the P-8 maritime patrol aircraft, the CH-47 Chinook and Apache longbow.*
> *
> In order to satisfy its offset requirements, Boeing has signed long-term partnership agreements with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), Tata Industries, and Larsen and Toubro, who will play a significant role in production and assembly of the aircraft.*



Boeing: Boeing Delivers Proposal to Equip Indian Air Force with Super Hornet Fighters

Boeing seeks leverage on Indian fighter order: AINonline

Boeing is participating in almost every tender associated with the IAF.
Boeing as a company has plans for India.

But the problem is the US state department, they dont want technology which they consider crucial to national interest in our hands. Boeing can do anything about this, if it were up to them of course they want to be just as competitive as the Europeans and Russians have been.

What i really think is going to decide this competition is the negotiations between the US state department and India. And how much the US is going to to give up as it were.

On another note the F-18 is the most cost effective bid on the table.
Im just saying if MoF has tier way again.


----------



## vnomad

sancho said:


> Already available through MKI, so no real points for IAF.



Maneuverability yes, but no aircraft with the exception of the F-22 can match the Eurofighter's agility. And it is generally considered to have a lower radar footprint than the Rafale.



> And the last simulations in UAE seems to show that the Rafale aren't much behind EF, if at all.



I can't comment on that without more information.



> Still a long way to go to that goal, latest news from a German forum, UK wants their Selsex swashplate AESA (that is available for Gripen NG too), Germany wants fixed AESA (for obvious reasons, because swashplate is against initial intention of AESA) , ITA still says no AESA needed. Decision about a possible AESA is now further delayed from end of dec, to somewhere in first quarter of 2010. Operational AESA in 2013? Hard to believe!



Because the current AESA development in industry funded rather than funded by the Eurofighter consortium. If flight testing of an AESA was possible in 2007, why can't an operational unit be available within seven years from that time? 

In any case, the bottom line is that the EF's offer to the IAF includes an operational AESA. If they figure that it can be done, its good enough for me.



> Yes and as I said before, it's actually nowhere near to be comparable with Rafale, or F18s capabilities in this role.



I'm still waiting for your justification on that issue. We already established that the Eurofighter if and when delivered to India(2013-) will be a mature variant with a full ground attack capability and all cleared weapons in full service. So, how exactly will the Eurofighter be limited vis-a-vis the Rafale?



> Latest news about Tranche 3, it should get AESA (see above), HMS, TVC and Meteor. Other weapons on customer request!



Sounds good. Though the HMS has been operational since the very beginning AFAIK.

Also, addition of conformal fuel tanks is one of the things the RAF is working on. Estimated to be operational around 2012.



> Anything else is still unsure, especially because the tranche is splited into 3A and 3B, so the useful weapons could come way later, or not at all.



India's order is independent of the scale or composition of Tranche 3. That said I don't believe any useful weapon has been excluded from the Tranche 3A batch.



> Which is still 2 years before the first MMRCA fighter will be delivered and one year before the EF AESA is intended to be integrated in consortium fighters. Sounds good to me!



Sure.. no one's denying the Rafale will get the AESA before MRCA deliveries are expected.

Though, the Eurofighter's AESA is expected to have over 1400 T/R modules as opposed to somewhere over a 1000 on the RBE2 AA on the Rafale.


----------



## sancho

gogbot said:


> Dude i am well aware what Boeing has to offer.
> 
> 
> 
> Boeing: Boeing Delivers Proposal to Equip Indian Air Force with Super Hornet Fighters
> 
> Boeing seeks leverage on Indian fighter order: AINonline
> 
> Boeing is participating in almost every tender associated with the IAF.
> Boeing as a company has plans for India.
> 
> But the problem is the US state department, they dont want technology which they consider crucial to national interest in our hands. Boeing can do anything about this, if it were up to them of course they want to be just as competitive as the Europeans and Russians have been.
> 
> What i really think is going to decide this competition is the negotiations between the US state department and India. And how much the US is going to to give up as it were.
> 
> On another note the *F-18 is the most cost effective bid on the table*.
> Im just saying if MoF has tier way again.


Can you explain that, because would say the Mig and even more the Gripen will be the most cost-effective bids. Mig has already a good base in IAF and comes with low unit cost, Gripen NG is said to be even cheaper and by the fact that it is a single engine fighter, the operational costs must be the lowest.
F18, Rafale and EF should be the costliest bids and as I said before F18 might be a bit cheaper in unit cost, but means additional cost for weapons that most of the other IAF fighters can't use. 
If IAF wants to reduce costs, by increasing commonality, reducing different types of weapons should be an aim too.


----------



## gogbot

sancho said:


> Can you explain that, because would say the Mig and even more the Gripen will be the most cost-effective bids. Mig has already a good base in IAF and comes with low unit cost, Gripen NG is said to be even cheaper and by the fact that it is a single engine fighter, the operational costs must be the lowest.
> F18, Rafale and EF should be the costliest bids and as I said before F18 might be a bit cheaper in unit cost, but means additional cost for weapons that most of the other IAF fighters can't use.
> If IAF wants to reduce costs, by increasing commonality, reducing different types of weapons should be an aim too.



Well lets understand the aspects here.

The only real contenders are the Europeans and the Americans.

Mig-35 is not ready yet. And the likely hood that the MOD will select another Russian aircraft is Highly unlikely. SO even if the MOF says get Mig the MOD would say NO.

The Griphen NG does not even meet the IAF doctrine.

And out of that Its widely know the IAF wants a twin engine plane.

So the only aircraft we really can get are the F-18, Euro-fighter and Rafael.

If any of the other aircraft's are chosen it would be unexpected.

But IF the deal is going anywhere like its is speculated on. 

Also i like to remind you that The F-18 has a large production line.
So economies of scale brings the price down in comparison to other aircraft also,



> "One of the concerns here in India is the cost of owning and maintaining combat fighters over their lifetime," said Vivek Lall, Boeing IDS vice president and India country head. "The F/A-18E/F Super Hornet offers a very attractive life-cycle-cost dynamic, since the fighter won't need a scheduled visit to a maintenance depot until it has clocked a minimum of 6,000 hours of flying time, and even well beyond that."



F-18 is the most cost effective twin engine fighter out there.

and like i said it probably most cost effective that any European option.

With the only other competing in terms of price being the MIg and the F-16.

Both of which are out due to strategic concerns.


----------



## sancho

gogbot said:


> The Griphen NG does not even meet the IAF doctrine.
> 
> And out of that Its widely know the IAF wants a twin engine plane.


Must disagree here, the original MRCA competition was between Gripen C/D, F16 B52, Mirage 2k-9 and Mig 29SMT, so IAF indeed wanted a single engine fighters! Only with Dassault rejecting Mirage 2k and introducing Rafale, things changes, because after that fighters like F18SH and EF came into the game too.
Also keep in mind we are not searching for a main fighter for the next several decades, we already have it with MKI and are co-developing the next one with Russia. So MMRCA was only meant as an addition to those, what also makes single engine fighters preferable for IAF, in terms of cost.


gogbot said:


> Also i like to remind you that The F-18 has a large production line.
> So economies of scale brings the price down in comparison to other aircraft also,


EF has orders for around 700 fighters and is still the costliest, F18 instead has only a single export customer, that also only buys 24 of them, so that can't be the reason for lower costs right? Imo the high Euro and the higher production costs in Europe are the reasons for such high costs. 


gogbot said:


> F-18 is the most cost effective twin engine fighter out there.


Any source for that?


----------



## gogbot

sancho said:


> Must disagree here, the original MRCA competition was between Gripen C/D, F16 B52, Mirage 2k-9 and Mig 29SMT, so IAF indeed wanted a single engine fighters! Only with Dassault rejecting Mirage 2k and introducing Rafale, things changes, because after that fighters like F18SH and EF came into the game too.
> 
> Also keep in mind we are not searching for a main fighter for the next several decades, we already have it with MKI and are co-developing the next one with Russia. So MMRCA was only meant as an addition to those, what also makes single engine fighters preferable for IAF, in terms of cost.
> 
> EF has orders for around 700 fighters and is still the costliest, F18 instead has only a single export customer, that also only buys 24 of them, so that can't be the reason for lower costs right? Imo the high Euro and the higher production costs in Europe are the reasons for such high costs.
> 
> Any source for that?





> Must disagree here, the original MRCA competition was between Gripen C/D, F16 B52, Mirage 2k-9 and Mig 29SMT, so IAF indeed wanted a single engine fighters! Only with Dassault rejecting Mirage 2k and introducing Rafale, things changes, because after that fighters like F18SH and EF came into the game too.



If the F-35 was ready there would be no need for this competition.
If Pak did not field the F-16. At the very least we would have gotten the F-16.

That leaves us with only one single engine fighter the Griphen NG .
Which is not even ready yet. Let alone out of all the companies participating this is the smallest One.

fro some reason i find my self seeing the Griphen as irrelevant when compared with the big guns on offer.

Also as i understand it The Griphen was not designed as a Air superiority fighter. Which makes me question its Multi-role capabilities.
Given it already has the Performance handicap of Being single engine.
As well as carry the least amount of Payload.

And the most significant problem with the Griphen is that it uses a significant chunk of American technology in its systems making the ToT more difficult.

meaning it has all the problems of the f-18 with none of the benefits



> Also keep in mind we are not searching for a main fighter for the next several decades, we already have it with MKI and are co-developing the next one with Russia. So MMRCA was only meant as an addition to those, what also makes single engine fighters preferable for IAF, in terms of cost



*MMRCA- Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft *

The aircraft has to be Multi-role. That's the key aspect they are looking for the best aircraft that can engage in both Air superiority and Strike missions seamlessly.

Well how many aircraft can do that.

the only real true Multi role aircraft are the F-18 and Rafael.

Why its because of the way they were designed.

with intentions of operating on Carriers and Land. Any aircraft operating of a carrier has proven Multi-role capability as well as versatility.



> EF has orders for around 700 fighters and is still the costliest, F18 instead has only a single export customer, that also only buys 24 of them, so that can't be the reason for lower costs right? Imo the high Euro and the higher production costs in Europe are the reasons for such high costs.



I cant offer much info on that other than the fact that its Widely considered that the European option is more expensive.

All i have to show Boeing cost effectiveness is from here


> Boeing: Boeing Delivers Proposal to Equip Indian Air Force with Super Hornet Fighters


----------



## sancho

gogbot said:


> If the F-35 was ready there would be no need for this competition.


No doubt about that!


gogbot said:


> fro some reason i find my self seeing the Griphen as irrelevant when compared with the big guns on offer.


I also don't like to see Gripen NG in IAF, because of LCA and the dependance on foreign parts, but these are our personal opinions and don't have to be the way IAF thinks right?


gogbot said:


> Also as i understand it The Griphen was not designed as a Air superiority fighter. Which makes me question its Multi-role capabilities.
> Given it already has the Performance handicap of Being single engine.
> As well as carry the least amount of Payload.


I think there is a misunderstanding here! Gripen NG indeed is a Multi role fighter (able to be used in air superiority and strike roles), otherwise it would have been out before the trials had started. It's designed for interception just like LCA, but in the NG version with better payload and a2g capabilities. And the payload is by far not much inferior, 6 t for NG, 6,5-7t for the Mig, 7t for EF. 
All contenders are multi role fighters, the difference is mainly that some are better in a2a with secondary a2g capabilities (EF, or Mig) and some the other way around (F18SH).


----------



## gogbot

sancho said:


> No doubt about that!
> 
> I also don't like to see Gripen NG in IAF, because of LCA and the dependance on foreign parts, but these are our personal opinions and don't have to be the way IAF thinks right?
> 
> I think there is a misunderstanding here! Gripen NG indeed is a Multi role fighter (able to be used in air superiority and strike roles), otherwise it would have been out before the trials had started. It's designed for interception just like LCA, but in the NG version with better payload and a2g capabilities. And the payload is by far not much inferior, 6 t for NG, 6,5-7t for the Mig, 7t for EF.
> All contenders are multi role fighters, the difference is mainly that some are better in a2a with secondary a2g capabilities (EF, or Mig) and some the other way around (F18SH).



you know i have actually been looking into it and Its surprising how similar the Griphen is to the LCA.

And the Gripehn NG to the LCA-Mk-2

In fact its just freaky how similar they are.
Even the Upgrades for the NG are the same as the Upgrades for the LCA-mk2.

No way we should pay 40-60 Mill for plane we can get for 25 mill


----------



## sancho

gogbot said:


> you know i have actually been looking into it and Its surprising how similar the Griphen is to the LCA.
> 
> And the Gripehn NG to the LCA-Mk-2
> 
> In fact its just freaky how similar they are.
> Even the Upgrades for the NG are the same as the Upgrades for the LCA-mk2.
> 
> No way we should pay 40-60 Mill for plane we can get for 25 mill


Yes if IAF and HAL go for the right techs! 
Consider a LCA MK2 with EJ 200 engine + TVC (~5,5t emptyweight and ~95kN thrust, compared to ~7t and 98kN of Gripen NG), both with AESA radars and latest EW systems. The only advantage in a2a I see for the NG is the Meteor missile. In a2g instead I see the Gripen in front, it will get IRST (LCA?), will have a payload of 6t (should be less on LCA), but that is not surprising though the NG is meant for the medium class, whereas the MK2 could remain in the light class.


----------



## gogbot

sancho said:


> Yes if IAF and HAL go for the right techs!
> Consider a LCA MK2 with EJ 200 engine + TVC (~5,5t emptyweight and ~95kN thrust, compared to ~7t and 98kN of Gripen NG), both with AESA radars and latest EW systems. The only advantage in a2a I see for the NG is the Meteor missile. In a2g instead I see the Gripen in front, it will get IRST (LCA?), will have a payload of 6t (should be less on LCA), but that is not surprising though the NG is meant for the medium class, whereas the MK2 could remain in the light class.



IRST pods are available, If it is not incorporated directly into the LCA it self.

the Metor missiles is pointlessly expensive.

Compared to the American Aim-120. its not the best either to justify its cost.

Selecting for a missile will just leave us relying on a foreign supplier, even more.

I doubt India will buy any of the weapons from Europe to use on the Planes. Instead they are likely to simply modify them to use Indian Missiles. such as the AStra

In fact the only advantage the Griphen can have over the LCA is maneuverability. Due to its canards i think. AS design wise they are almost the same.



> The LCA design was finalised in 1990 as a small delta-winged machine with "relaxed static stability" (RSS) to enhance maneuverability performance.





> In designing the aircraft, several layouts were studied. Saab ultimately selected a canard design with relaxed stability. The canard configuration gives a high onset of pitch rate and low drag, enabling the aircraft to be faster, have longer range and carry a larger payload.



But if the LCA uses a TV engine then the LCA becomes more agile.



> *Aerodynamic advantages Delta wing
> *
> The primary advantage of the delta wing design is that the wing's leading edge remains behind the shock wave generated by the nose of the aircraft when flying at supersonic speeds, which is an improvement on traditional wing designs. While this is also true of highly swept wings, the delta's planform carries across the entire aircraft, allowing it to be built much more strongly than a swept wing, where the spar meets the fuselage far in front of the center of gravity. Generally a delta will be stronger than a similar swept wing, as well as having much more internal volume for fuel and other storage.
> 
> *Another advantage is that as the angle of attack increases the leading edge of the wing generates a vortex which remains attached to the upper surface of the wing, giving the delta a very high stall angle.* A normal wing built for high speed use is typically dangerous at low speeds, but in this regime the delta changes over to a mode of lift based on the vortex it generates. The disadvantages, especially marked in the older tailless delta designs, are a loss of total available lift caused by turning up the wing trailing edge or the control surfaces (as required to achieve a sufficient stability) and the high induced drag of this low-aspect ratio type of wing. *This causes delta-winged aircraft to 'bleed off' energy very rapidly in turns, a disadvantage in aerial maneuver combat and dogfighting. This can be solved with relaxed stability, strakes and canards.*
> 
> Additional advantages of the delta wing are simplicity of manufacture, strength, and substantial interior volume for fuel or other equipment. Because the delta wing is simple, it can be made very robust (even if it is quite thin), and it is easy and relatively inexpensive to build - a substantial factor in the success of the MiG-21 and Mirage aircraft.



well both are highly agile.

But i don't know of any Delta wing aircraft with TVC
And the Griphen has both Canards and RSS
but the LCA has only RSS

So on that note, The Griphen might have some what of minor advantage

Byt not enough to justify it 20 million plus price increase


----------



## sancho

gogbot said:


> IRST pods are available, If it is not incorporated directly into the LCA it self.


But pods will ocupy one of the few weapon stations, so not the best idea.


gogbot said:


> the Metor missiles is pointlessly expensive.
> 
> Compared to the American Aim-120. its not the best either to justify its cost.
> 
> Selecting for a missile will just leave us relying on a foreign supplier, even more.
> 
> I doubt India will buy any of the weapons from Europe to use on the Planes. Instead they are likely to simply modify them to use Indian Missiles. such as the AStra


If Meteor turns out to be as good as expected (more speed, more range than AMRAAM, or R77) it will clearly be worth it! Also LCA will rely highly on foreign weapons, because there are not many indigenous weapons developed so far. Astra and Helenia are a start, but the WVR missile will be foreign for sure (R73, I would prefer Python 5, or Mica IF/IRIS-T), same goes for bombs, anti-ship, or anti-radiation missiles. . 


gogbot said:


> In fact the only advantage the Griphen can have over the LCA is maneuverability. Due to its canards i think. AS design wise they are almost the same.
> But if the LCA uses a TV engine then the LCA becomes more agile.


That's what I said, the design is very close but the techs that and weapons that it will get will make the big difference in a2a. 
But we need foreign techs and weapons for sure, because when exports are an aim, made in India is associated with cheap only and not with good, or quality. You can see it at Dhruv too, it's for sure a good helicopter, with latest avionics and more cost-effective than others in the class, but the exported numbers are too bad.
With a western partner, LCA MK2 could get way more orders! 


gogbot said:


> So on that note, The Griphen might have some what of minor advantage
> Byt not enough to justify it 20 million plus price increase


In a2a I agree, but if u want a better multi role fighter, the Gripen NG have some more arguments.


----------



## gogbot

sancho said:


> But pods will ocupy one of the few weapon stations, so not the best idea.
> 
> If Meteor turns out to be as good as expected (more speed, more range than AMRAAM, or R77) it will clearly be worth it! Also LCA will rely highly on foreign weapons, because there are not many indigenous weapons developed so far. Astra and Helenia are a start, but the WVR missile will be foreign for sure (R73, I would prefer Python 5, or Mica IF/IRIS-T), same goes for bombs, anti-ship, or anti-radiation missiles. .
> 
> That's what I said, the design is very close but the techs that and weapons that it will get will make the big difference in a2a.
> But we need foreign techs and weapons for sure, because when exports are an aim, made in India is associated with cheap only and not with good, or quality. You can see it at Dhruv too, it's for sure a good helicopter, with latest avionics and more cost-effective than others in the class, but the exported numbers are too bad.
> With a western partner, LCA MK2 could get way more orders!
> 
> In a2a I agree, but if u want a better multi role fighter, the Gripen NG have some more arguments.



Arey

dont you get it.

there is nothing the Griphen has that we cannot do ourselves.
What ever tech in the Griphen we can reproduce as we have something very close.

most of out tech programs are second generation now, the tome for R&D is significantly less and we get more for money

India has for too long been the elephant choosing peanuts over the big catch.

the MMRCA is the last foreign plane we will ever induct.

lets become the tiger and go in for the kill this time around.

this is an opportunity to absorb American tech, or supplement European tech

Choose the best one and go for it. 


No western partner will help us export anything. The LCA mk-2 cant be exported it uses a foreign engine so it is unlikely, may be the Mk-3 can be exported with the Kaveri Installed


----------



## sancho

gogbot said:


> Arey
> 
> dont you get it.
> 
> there is nothing the Griphen has that we cannot do ourselves.
> What ever tech in the Griphen we can reproduce as we have something very close.


Don't think that is a realistic view mate, we are on a good way, but still behind most other nations in development of techs!

Look at MMR which should be an indigenous radar and now turns out to be a hybrid with Israeli techs, the AESA radar could follow the same example. EWS is said to be fully Indian, but I don't know much about it, so can't compare it. Kaveri engine not ready without foreign help and only foreign eingines will be used for IAF LCAs, not to forget the weight problems that HAL and IAF wasn't able to solve. They had to pay a foreign company for their help and hopefully for solving that problem. N-LCA - HAL and IN are desperately searching for foreign help to make it carrier capable.

LCA was the right way to go, but we had overestimated our capabilities, especially our experience! 
MMRCA and especially every bit ot ToT is needed to improve our industry and get more experience for the future. 


gogbot said:


> No western partner will help us export anything. The LCA mk-2 cant be exported it uses a foreign engine so it is unlikely, may be the Mk-3 can be exported with the Kaveri Installed


As far as I know only IAF LCA MK2 will use foreign engines, the order is for 100 + 50 optional, not for those and all exports. The new interest in Kaveri-Snecma co-development shows that they understood how important an own engine is, be it to export LCA, or for future projects like MCA. 
France won't veto any techs as long as we won't compete their Rafale which is not possible, though LCA is a light class fighter and Rafale in the medium class.
We already have jv with Thales and Samtel for avionics, Kaveri-Snecma engine would be the next one, so why should it be impossible to partner with them on Rafale and LCA for exports?

Think about an LCA MK2 for exports, with RBE 2 AESA radar, Kaveri-Snecma engine, Indian EWS, Topsight HMS, Mica IF WVR missile, Astra BVR missile, Helenia anti-tank missile, Exocet anti-ship missile and AASM (even Scalp could be a possibility) and the LCA would turn out to be a 4,5 gen Mirage 2000 fighter, that can share techs and weapons with Rafale
Wouldn't the chances for export be much better than with Indian techs and Russian weapons only?
Wouldn't France benefit a lot too, by sharing, or producing those techs and weapons with/in India? 
Wouldn't we benefit of the good foreign relations of France and their long experience in exporting and selling such fighters?
Wouldn't such a share of techs and weapons even attract other nations to buy LCA MK2 and Rafale as a cost-effective high, low mix?

Of course hypothetical, but you can't deny that it would be a win, win situation for both countries as well as for HAL and Dassault. That's why always say, France can turn out to be the best stratigic partner for India, besides Russia, because they have much to offer for India.


----------



## RPK

Rafale : Dassault aurait réduit de 40 % le prix de vente au Brésil - LeMonde.fr

*Dassault will reduce by 40&#37; the price of Rafale in Brazil*

The aircraft manufacturer Dassault, in competition to supply 36 Rafale fighter jets to Brazil, had to reduce its selling price by 40% to increase his chances, said, Friday, November 6, Liberation. Dassault had undertaken to bring the price one paid by the French army, or 50 million euros each, against an original offer of 96 million.


----------



## gogbot

sancho said:


> Don't think that is a realistic view mate, we are on a good way, but still behind most other nations in development of techs!
> 
> Look at MMR which should be an indigenous radar and now turns out to be a hybrid with Israeli techs, the AESA radar could follow the same example. EWS is said to be fully Indian, but I don't know much about it, so can't compare it. Kaveri engine not ready without foreign help and only foreign eingines will be used for IAF LCAs, not to forget the weight problems that HAL and IAF wasn't able to solve. They had to pay a foreign company for their help and hopefully for solving that problem. N-LCA - HAL and IN are desperately searching for foreign help to make it carrier capable.
> 
> LCA was the right way to go, but we had overestimated our capabilities, especially our experience!
> MMRCA and especially every bit of ToT is needed to improve our industry and get more experience for the future.



Dude even the griphen uses a foreign engine. It uses the the same Ge engines that the LCA usese, the griphen uses a significant chunk of foreign systems. 

We have used Isralie tech to make our Radar, but we already have it now, we have a radar.

what ToT does the Griphen give that can improve us ?






sancho said:


> As far as I know only IAF LCA MK2 will use foreign engines, the order is for 100 + 50 optional, not for those and all exports. The new interest in Kaveri-Snecma co-development shows that they understood how important an own engine is, be it to export LCA, or for future projects like MCA.
> France won't veto any techs as long as we won't compete their Rafale which is not possible, though LCA is a light class fighter and Rafale in the medium class.
> We already have jv with Thales and Samtel for avionics, Kaveri-Snecma engine would be the next one, so why should it be impossible to partner with them on Rafale and LCA for exports?
> 
> Think about an LCA MK2 for exports, with RBE 2 AESA radar, Kaveri-Snecma engine, Indian EWS, Topsight HMS, Mica IF WVR missile, Astra BVR missile, Helenia anti-tank missile, Exocet anti-ship missile and AASM (even Scalp could be a possibility) and the LCA would turn out to be a 4,5 gen Mirage 2000 fighter, that can share techs and weapons with Rafale
> Wouldn't the chances for export be much better than with Indian techs and Russian weapons only?
> Wouldn't France benefit a lot too, by sharing, or producing those techs and weapons with/in India?
> Wouldn't we benefit of the good foreign relations of France and their long experience in exporting and selling such fighters?
> Wouldn't such a share of techs and weapons even attract other nations to buy LCA MK2 and Rafale as a cost-effective high, low mix?
> 
> Of course hypothetical, but you can't deny that it would be a win, win situation for both countries as well as for HAL and Dassault. That's why always say, France can turn out to be the best stratigic partner for India, besides Russia, because they have much to offer for India.



We already have partners in Israile and Russia. with whom we have a number of Joint ventures.

we dont need to work as a subsidiary for Dassualt. 

If they Dassault wants a partner even junior partner, we may see incetives.

also i know the LCA is based on the mirage but its noth a Mirage.

Its much more like the Gripen with its RSS and increased maneuverability, reduced cross section and Carbon composite body

Its a plane in its own right calling it a 4.5 gen Mirage is not right.


----------



## gogbot

rpraveenkum said:


> Rafale : Dassault aurait réduit de 40 % le prix de vente au Brésil - LeMonde.fr
> 
> *Dassault will reduce by 40% the price of Rafale in Brazil*
> 
> The aircraft manufacturer Dassault, in competition to supply 36 Rafale fighter jets to Brazil, had to reduce its selling price by 40% to increase his chances, said, Friday, November 6, Liberation. Dassault had undertaken to bring the price one paid by the French army, or 50 million euros each, against an original offer of 96 million.



They must have removed some features to reduce the price by 40%


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## sancho

gogbot said:


> Dude even the griphen uses a foreign engine. It uses the the same Ge engines that the LCA usese, the griphen uses a significant chunk of foreign systems.


Of course it uses foreign parts too, I never said something else. But they are developing good avionics, radar systems and even fighters for years and have clearly more experience in it. So we can't do anything that they do just like that.


gogbot said:


> We have used Isralie tech to make our Radar, but we already have it now, we have a radar.
> what ToT does the Griphen give that can improve us ?


Normal Gripen is flying for years with the PS-05 radar and as far as I know LCA MK1 has still no radar operational. As I told you before, I am not for Gripen NG exactly because of LCA, but still I admit that in developing of techs they are clearly in front of us. 


gogbot said:


> We already have partners in Israile and Russia. with whom we have a number of Joint ventures.
> we dont need to work as a subsidiary for Dassualt.


But Israel can't offer us help in Kaveri development, nor in reducing LCA weight. Russian engines are not as good as western, that's exactly why we go for GE404 and not for RB 33 that we already produce in India. So it's good to have jv with them in some fields, but for LCA problems they are not really helpful.
Btw I never said we should only be a subsidiary of Dassault, I said HAL should partner with them! Using the same weapon pack and techs on 2 different fighters (one Indian, one French, one ligth class, one medium) for export reasons, will reduce costs and help both companies to get export customers.


gogbot said:


> Its a plane in its own right calling it a 4.5 gen Mirage is not right.


Ok my fault and wrong describtion! What I intended to say is, it could turn out as a more modern and capable, but similar class and similar role fighter as the Mirage 2000 that IAF loves so much. But only if we make it that capable by integrating the best techs and weapons. LCA with R73, or only KAB 500 bombs won't be as good and can't be sold on export markets.


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## gogbot

sancho said:


> Of course it uses foreign parts too, I never said something else. But they are developing good avionics, radar systems and even fighters for years and have clearly more experience in it. So we can't do anything that they do just like that.
> 
> Normal Gripen is flying for years with the PS-05 radar and as far as I know LCA MK1 has still no radar operational. As I told you before, I am not for Gripen NG exactly because of LCA, but still I admit that in developing of techs they are clearly in front of us.
> 
> But Israel can't offer us help in Kaveri development, nor in reducing LCA weight. Russian engines are not as good as western, that's exactly why we go for GE404 and not for RB 33 that we already produce in India. So it's good to have jv with them in some fields, but for LCA problems they are not really helpful.
> Btw I never said we should only be a subsidiary of Dassault, I said HAL should partner with them! Using the same weapon pack and techs on 2 different fighters (one Indian, one French, one ligth class, one medium) for export reasons, will reduce costs and help both companies to get export customers.
> 
> Ok my fault and wrong describtion! What I intended to say is, it could turn out as a more modern and capable, but similar class and similar role fighter as the Mirage 2000 that IAF loves so much. But only if we make it that capable by integrating the best techs and weapons. LCA with R73, or only KAB 500 bombs won't be as good and can't be sold on export markets.



dude you are behind the game and have been uninformed on the LCA and Indian Munitions.

the LCA has an MMR radar with the help of Israeli tech.

ADRE and Dassault have just started to begin work on the Kaveri Mk-2

The Hindu : Front Page : Kaveri project: DRDO gets nod for tie-up with French firm

India has made significant progress in bombs in the last decade since Kargil

The defense sector has matured in the Last decade. 
We are significantly more capable today.

We dont need foreign help to sell our exports, we are perfectly capable of marketing Indian defense exports.


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## freethinker

India is obviously capable of developing competetive technology but saying that Gripen has no substantial technology to offer is a bit of a stretch. 
Sweden has over 60 years of experience in fighter jet production and R&D and has been at the cutting edge of electronics, datalink systems and miniturization for as long. We have domestically produced AIP submarines, stealth littoral warships and other cutting-edge weapon systems. 
You wont just get blueprints and source code but also everything you need to start manufacuring and modifying parts domestically. 
In the case of the Gripen NG you will also get full access to current and future development which in some areas are years ahead of the competition. That being said i'm sure Rafale and EF also has some interesting technologies to share.

The Swedish offer might not be the best fit from a IAF doctrine point of view but i am fairly certain that the ToT offer is top notch.


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## gogbot

freethinker said:


> India is obviously capable of developing competetive technology but saying that Gripen has no substantial technology to offer is a bit of a stretch.
> Sweden has over 60 years of experience in fighter jet production and R&D and has been at the cutting edge of electronics, datalink systems and miniturization for as long. We have domestically produced AIP submarines, stealth littoral warships and other cutting-edge weapon systems.
> You wont just get blueprints and source code but also everything you need to start manufacuring and modifying parts domestically.
> In the case of the Gripen NG you will also get full access to current and future development which in some areas are years ahead of the competition. That being said i'm sure Rafale and EF also has some interesting technologies to share.
> 
> The Swedish offer might not be the best fit from a IAF doctrine point of view but i am fairly certain that the ToT offer is top notch.



Hey no one is gonna disagree that the Griphen NG is top notch aircraft.

its designed to land on roads be rearmed and refueled in 15 min and take of again.

How many planes can do that.

But there are to many fators working against the Griphen.

For starters it uses US tech that Saab cant offer TOT for with our US approval.

Its capabilities are very similar to the Tejas. Both are Lightweight Delta wing RSS planes. and they even use the Same engines.

Its not a carrier aircraft. The IN also has a stake in the MMRCA. IN may get the same aircraft as the MMRCA as that way it can have its service centers in India.

Com-parred to the log term realtions with Companies such as Euro-fighter , Boeing and Dassult. SAAB offers little.

Also the fact that PAF has alredy tested the Griphen is serious sub tractor.

from a pure logistical point of view the Griphen is top notch

but strategically not so much


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## sancho

gogbot said:


> dude you are behind the game and have been uninformed on the LCA and Indian Munitions.
> 
> the LCA has an MMR radar with the help of Israeli tech.


Besides that I told you about MMR and Kaver-Snecma engine in post 1279, the problem is, is MMR operational? As far as I know it is not, all weapon tests was done without radar guidance and no BVR missile was tested yet. But please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm happy to see some sources about its latest developments.


gogbot said:


> India has made significant progress in bombs in the last decade since Kargil
> 
> The defense sector has matured in the Last decade.
> We are significantly more capable today.


That's totally correct and I never said something else, but we were discussing Indias capability in development of arms and techs compared to western countries like Sweden right? Just like the LCA development shows, although we improved much, we still need help in nearly all areas and that's imo because of the lack of experience.

However, this is MMRCA thread and I think we moved to far from the topic to LCA. So lets go back to topic, or use the LCA thread for this topic ok?


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## sancho

freethinker said:


> You wont just get blueprints and source code but also everything you need to start manufacuring and modifying parts domestically.
> In the case of the Gripen NG you will also get full access to current and future development which in some areas are years ahead of the competition. That being said i'm sure Rafale and EF also has some interesting technologies to share.
> 
> The Swedish offer might not be the best fit from a IAF doctrine point of view but i am fairly certain that the ToT offer is top notch.


Hi freethinker, can you tell us more about Saabs ToT offer? I find it strnge to offer full ToT and source codes, if the important techs are not swedish like engine, AESA radar and even most of the weapons should be US origin or?


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## gogbot

sancho said:


> Besides that I told you about MMR and Kaver-Snecma engine in post 1279, the problem is, is MMR operational? As far as I know it is not, all weapon tests was done without radar guidance and no BVR missile was tested yet. But please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm happy to see some sources about its latest developments.



I read an article w while back where it was said that the MMR radar used in the MK-1 was possible due to Cooperation with Elta.

The IOC clearance means that the Aircraft production is supposed to start by the end of the year. AS HAL can only make 8 tejas per year as of now.

I shall try to find the link. but you will have to to take me at my word til then.



> *That's totally correct and I never said something else, but we were discussing Indias capability in development of arms and techs compared to western countries like Sweden right? Just like the LCA development shows, although we improved much, we still need help in nearly all areas and that's imo because of the lack of experience.
> 
> However, this is MMRCA thread and I think we moved to far from the topic to LCA. So lets go back to topic, or use the LCA thread for this topic ok?
> *



i agree but who should we partner with.

We work with the French the Russian and Israile. even the Americans to a lesser extent.
What can SAAB offer compared to those lot.

And also the LCA and MMRCA are very much linked. Both having a huge bearing on the other. We cant see the Big piture of the MMRCA deal unless we put the Indian navy's RFI
and the LCA together with the MMRCA compettition


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## freethinker

sancho said:


> Hi freethinker, can you tell us more about Saabs ToT offer? I find it strnge to offer full ToT and source codes, if the important techs are not swedish like engine, AESA radar and even most of the weapons should be US origin or?



Gripen rubbishes reports that a large part of the aircraft is US-made and also denies that the GE 414 engine will be subject to us technology transfer or End use Monitoring conditions. We have about thirty five percent in the C/D. We have a lot less in the Gripen NG. A lot less than thirty five per cent. As we understand it, its related to very advanced technology, bought under the FMS (Foreign Military Sales) case, where you buy the stuff directly from the US government. And that goes for US weapons for instance, so if the Indian Air Force buys US weapons, Im sure theyre going to be subject to End Use Monitoring. But the rest of the equipment, the Direct Commercial Sales, as we understand it, is not subject to End Use Monitoring, he elaborates, adding, Its an American engine. And General Electric have provided a very comprehensive technology transfer package, so I dont see that being affected.

Pretty much all key systems such as aesa radar, electronics etc are being developed either in-house by saab or jointly between saab and partners such as Italian Selex Galileo. Tech transfer is 100%.


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## freethinker

> i agree but who should we partner with.
> 
> We work with the French the Russian and Israile. even the Americans to a lesser extent.
> What can SAAB offer compared to those lot.




For one thing we are actually giving you the technology, not just letting you use the equipment. The French and the Israelis or Americans wont. The French wont even give you the source codes for their Thales radar (saab terminated their cooperation with Thales btw) so India would have to give all parameters to France before making any changes. 
From a technology standpoint neither of those countries you listed has any type of advantage when it comes to fighter jet technology.
Saab has pioneered a lot of the modern fighter jet systems such as datalinks etc which we had on our old Viggen jets long before any other country. 

The only competitor with a clear tech advantage is the F35 on account of stealth but that also comes with its drawbacks such as fixed plate aesa radar, super expenisve maintenance, easy to break, limited internal weapon storage and having to deal with American Congress and what not if you want to paint as much as an emblem on the chassis.


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## gogbot

freethinker said:


> For one thing we are actually giving you the technology, not just letting you use the equipment. The French and the Israelis or Americans wont. The French wont even give you the source codes for their Thales radar (saab terminated their cooperation with Thales btw) so India would have to give all parameters to France before making any changes.
> From a technology standpoint neither of those countries you listed has any type of advantage when it comes to fighter jet technology.
> Saab has pioneered a lot of the modern fighter jet systems such as datalinks etc which we had on our old Viggen jets long before any other country.
> 
> The only competitor with a clear tech advantage is the F35 on account of stealth but that also comes with its drawbacks such as fixed plate aesa radar, super expenisve maintenance, easy to break, limited internal weapon storage and having to deal with American Congress and what not if you want to paint as much as an emblem on the chassis.



Actually France has offered tull ToT including source codes



> domain-b.com : Dassault ups the ante with full technology transfer for Rafale



You let me list all the offered by the company's so we all have the same Info more or less.



> The *Dassault Rafale* is a French twin-engined delta-wing agile multi-role fighter aircraft designed and built by Dassault Aviation. The Rafale was brought in as the replacement for the Mirage 2000-5 that was originally a competitor for the tender, after the production lines for the Mirage closed down, as well as the entry of much more advanced aircraft into the competition.
> 
> The Rafale has the advantage of being logistically and operationally similar to the Mirage 2000, which the IAF already operates and used with great success during the Kargil War (see Operation Safed Sagar). This would require fewer changes in the existing infrastructure of the IAF, which in turn will reduce cost. Moreover, being 100 per cent French also provided Dassault a distinct edge over its competitors on the issue of technology transfer. Dassault claims that the Rafale has an advantage over many of the competitors because it is not subject to ITAR restrictions.
> 
> The French government has cleared full technology transfer of the Rafale to India, including that of the RBE2-AA Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar (which will be integrated with the Rafale by 2010) and the transfer of software source codes, which will allow Indian scientists to re-programme a radar or any sensitive equipment if need be. Without the software source codes, the IAF would have to specify mission parameters to foreign manufacturers to enable configuration of their radar, seriously compromising security in the process.
> 
> Dassault has also offered to fit the Kaveri engine into the Rafale, which, if chosen, which would greatly improve commonality with the Tejas aircraft that will enter service into the IAF by 2010. Concerns have been raised about cost issues as well as potential sales to Pakistan, which has also expressed interest in the Rafale. However, no such jets have been sold to Pakistan, and India and France have recently agreed to "go beyond a buyer-seller relationship".
> 
> Dassult has also partnered with GTRE to develop the Kaveri MK-2
> Allowing the engine to be more readily adaptable for the Rafael and of course providing a new domestic engine
> 
> New radar could boost Rafale's export prospects





> *The Eurofighter Typhoon* is a twin-engine multi-role canard-delta strike fighter aircraft, designed and built by a consortium of European aerospace manufacturers through Eurofighter GmbH.
> 
> Eurofighter is offering the Tranche-3 Typhoon for the Indian requirement, equipped with the Captor-E (CAESAR) AESA radar. EADS has invited India to become a partner of the Eurofighter Typhoon programme if the Typhoon wins the contract, and will be given technological and development participation in future tranches of the Typhoon. Bernhard Gerwert, CEO of EADS Defense Department, elaborated that if India becomes the fifth partner of the Eurofighter programme, it will be able to manufacture assemblies for new Eurofighters.
> 
> In January 2010, EADS offered to include thrust vectoring nozzles (TVNs) with the Typhoon's EJ200 engines for India. Thrust vectoring will improve operational capabilities, and reduce fuel burn by up to 5 percent and increase thrust while supersonic cruising by 7 percent.
> 
> the EJ2000 is also on offer for the LCA-mk2
> 
> Eurofighter sweetens its India offer
> 
> Upgraded Eurofighter offered to Indian Air Force
> 
> Eurofighter consortium seeks to reinforce relationship with India - Forbes.com





> The U.S. Navy operates over 340 *F/A-18E/F Super Hornets* (with 411 on order), and is presently the only user of the aircraft. Australia is buying 24 F/A-18Fs, and Boeing is trying to gain other contracts as well. The MMRCA contract represents a prime opportunity for U.S. defence companies to gain a foothold in the Indian defence market, which is estimated to be about US$100 billion in the next 10 years.
> 
> Initially, the Request for Information (RFI) was not issued to Boeing, which decided to field the Super Hornet. The U.S. Government allowed Boeing to participate in the RFI, and later gave permission for RFP (Request For Proposal) as well. However, any sale of aircraft will need to be approved by the U.S. Congress.
> 
> Initial reactions within the IAF were enthusiastic, although there were apprehensions of support issues in case of future sanctions. There were concern over the availability of the Super Hornet's APG-79 AESA radar, but export of the radar has been approved by the U.S. government. The US has stated that there would be some restrictions and pre-conditions for the purchase of the aircraft.
> 
> On 24 April 2008, Boeing (through the U.S. Embassy in New Delhi) submitted their 7000-page proposal to the Ministry of Defence, before the April 28 deadline for the submission for proposals. The Super Hornet variant being offered to India, the F/A-18IN, is based on the F/A-18E/F model flown by the U.S. Navy and currently being built for the Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF). Raytheon's APG-79 AESA radar is being offered on the aircraft. There will be a limited ToT on the radar, up to the level approved by the US Government. However, Raytheon has stated that the level of ToT offered will be compliant with the RFP requirements. Delivery of the first F/A-18IN Super Hornets can begin approximately 36 months after contract award.
> 
> Boeing has proposed joint manufacture of the jets with Indian partners. It also plans to offset the cost by setting up a US$100 million maintenance and training hub in Nagpur. This is the first time the Super Hornet has been offered for production in a foreign country. On 14 February 2008, Boeing and Tata Industries agreed to form a joint-venture company. The new entity, which will be formed in June 2008, will supply components for Boeing military aircraft, including the Super Hornet.
> 
> In order to satisfy its offset requirements, Boeing has signed long-term partnership agreements with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), Tata Industries, and Larsen and Toubro, who will play a significant role in production and assembly of the aircraft.
> 
> Boeing is participating in almost every major India defense purchase, as a comapany it seems ready to sell us its entire catalog.
> 
> Now its up to the us State department on how much ToT is made available
> 
> The Engines used on the F-18 are also on offer to the LCA-mk 2 engine bid.
> 
> Boeing: Boeing Delivers Proposal to Equip Indian Air Force with Super Hornet Fighters
> 
> Boeing seeks leverage on Indian fighter order: AINonline
> 
> Boeing: Boeing Delivers Proposal to Equip Indian Air Force with Super Hornet Fighters
> 
> Raytheon to transfer AESA radar technology to India up to the level permitted by US government | India Defence
> 
> Your Defence News - Sale of military equipment: US wants India to accept conditions



The Indian Navy has also Issued RFI for all these aircraft. adding furhter weight and Possible order's to their bids.

And this is SAAB's offer



> The Saab JAS 39 Gripen (Griffin or "Gryphon") is a fighter aircraft manufactured by the Swedish aerospace company Saab. The aircraft is in service with the Swedish, Czech, Hungarian and the South African air forces, and has been ordered by the Royal Thai Air Force.
> 
> The Gripen was one of the aircraft that the IAF sent the Request for Information. The Gripen participated at Aero India 2007, where one JAS 39C (single seater) and two JAS 39D (two-seater) variants were brought. Gripen International is offering the Gripen IN, a version of the Gripen NG (Next Generation) for India's competition.The Gripen NG has increased fuel capacity, more powerful powerplant, higher payload, upgraded avionics and other improvements.



And also the IAF has decided not to get the F-35 II due to the fact it wont be available till the end of the decade. By then they will have the FGFA.

*France has the best offer from a pure technology standpoint. 100% ToT and AESA source code.*

*Euro Fighter is offering partnership in its program ensuring the India participates in Future Developments.*

*Boeing of course offer access to American tech, bot not to the level of the European bids but still meeting the Contract requirements*

Rafael would be the best pick by all standards.

But as you can see Euro-fighter and Boeing still make some attractive offer's. and politically The decision is tilted to the latter.

But we never know do we, It may very well be the French in the End.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## sancho

gogbot said:


> i agree but who should we partner with.


As I said before, imo France is the best partner for LCA, because only they can offer us help in any field, where the LCA still have problems. They can offer not only a co-developed engine, but also an integrated IRST system, they have experience in making a fighter carrier capable (if IN still want to go for N-LCA), if Elta 2052 can't be offered because of possible US parts (read some rumors about that as US vetoed the AESA co-development for Gripen NG), RBE 2 AESA could be a good alternative and it even offers source codes. Not to forget that France can offer us good alternative weapons if IAF, or export customers don't want to use Russian weapons. 



freethinker said:


> The French wont even give you the source codes for their Thales radar (*saab terminated their cooperation with Thales btw*) so India would have to give all parameters to France before making any changes.


As gogbot showed you, France offers full ToT and source codes (was the first contender that made such an offer!) and as far as I know, not Saab terminated Thales, but Saab *was terminated* by Thales! Dassault owns a good amount of Thales shares and when the Gripen NG was offered to India and Brazil in competiton to Rafale, Dassault played their cards and let Thales stop the co-development of an AESA radar for the Gripen NG demonstrator. This was only one example how dependent the NG is on other nations and why I still have some doubts about its ToT and source codes offer. 
Anyway, the only chance I see for the NG in India is, if there will be the same issue of buying the cheapest that fullfil the requirements that we seen in the tanker competition. The cost-effectiveness of the NG can't even be beaten by the Migs and as it also is a multi role fighter, it should fullfill the main reqirements. But this solution would not be the best for IAF, nor will it get India any political, or stratigical advantages.


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## freethinker

Thanks for your thoughts on this. I've purposefully left out my personal opinion on what plane would be the best fit as i don't have enough knowledge in that area. To weigh in i don't hold much hope for the Gripen in India but i do have on good authority that transfer of technology wont be an issue. Nor has it been an issue on any of our exported C and D versions which has significantly more American technology in them. 

Its certainly interesting times and i&#180;m really looking forward to see who Brazil and India will choose. The Rafale definitely deserves some export sales.


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## gogbot

freethinker said:


> Thanks for your thoughts on this. I've purposefully left out my personal opinion on what plane would be the best fit as i don't have enough knowledge in that area. To weigh in i don't hold much hope for the Gripen in India but i do have on good authority that transfer of technology wont be an issue. Nor has it been an issue on any of our exported C and D versions which has significantly more American technology in them.
> 
> Its certainly interesting times and i´m really looking forward to see who Brazil and India will choose. The Rafale definitely deserves some export sales.



I heard Brazil has chosen Rafael last year.

And Dassault even went as far as to slash the Price by 40%


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## sancho

gogbot said:


> I heard Brazil has chosen Rafael last year.
> 
> And Dassault even went as far as to slash the Price by 40%


The deal is still not really decided, Brazilian president and defense minister prefer the Rafale, because of full ToT+source codes offer, the stratigic advantage of France for all forces and in political terms and because it is the independent choice. US vetoed the sale of several Brazilian arms to other South American nations in the past, because they used US techs in them, that's why Brazil now want an independent and veto/sanctionprove solution with as much ToT as possible (interesting point for MMRCA and LCA with a possible US engine too!!!). 
The FAB (Brazilian air force) has made an evaluation report that was leacked to the media, which says they prefer the Gripen NG. One reason might be Embraer, which has close relations to FAB and Saab (Embraer Erieye for example) and the fact that the NG is still under development and Brazil could be a partner of it. Another point are the costs, the NG is less expensive and they could buy higher numbers of NGs with their budget, then Rafales. Altough the Rafale is more capable, it don't have to be the best fighter for their threat environment. Unlike in Indias case, their opponents don't have that big and capable air force fleets, so a higher number of NGs might be sufficient enough.

Will be interesting to see who will win!


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## gogbot

sancho said:


> The deal is still not really decided, Brazilian president and defense minister prefer the Rafale, because of full ToT+source codes offer, the stratigic advantage of France for all forces and in political terms and because it is the independent choice. US vetoed the sale of several Brazilian arms to other South American nations in the past, because they used US techs in them, that's why Brazil now want an independent and veto/sanctionprove solution with as much ToT as possible (interesting point for MMRCA and LCA with a possible US engine too!!!).
> The FAB (Brazilian air force) has made an evaluation report that was leacked to the media, which says they prefer the Gripen NG. One reason might be Embraer, which has close relations to FAB and Saab (Embraer Erieye for example) and the fact that the NG is still under development and Brazil could be a partner of it. Another point are the costs, the NG is less expensive and they could buy higher numbers of NGs with their budget, then Rafales. Altough the Rafale is more capable, it don't have to be the best fighter for their threat environment. *Unlike in Indias case, their opponents don't have that big and capable air force fleets*, so a higher number of NGs might be sufficient enough.
> 
> Will be interesting to see who will win!



That's an understatement.

A super expanding and growing China on one end.

and A military governed Pakistan with Chinese toys on the other end.

and if it wasn't enough we all decided to play with Nukes as well.

Brazilians dont know how easy they have it being the most powerful nation in the southern Hemisphere. 

When they want to grow economically they dont worry about Nuclear war, or the rapidly expanding armed forces of their neighbors.


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## RPK

He said his country would also offer full technology for the multi-role fighter jet Typhoon and even start manufacturing the aircraft in India without insisting on end-user agreement. 


Germany planning multiple pacts with India


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## Hulk

wow, with so many different offers coming India's way, we are sure to get boast in our defense capabilities. We will be manufacturing a lot of stuff after 5 years, the time it will take for these things to start showing impact.


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## sancho

indianrabbit said:


> wow, with so many different offers coming India's way, we are sure to get boast in our defense capabilities. We will be manufacturing a lot of stuff after 5 years, the time it will take for these things to start showing impact.


That's right 2014/15 will be the most interesting time, because we should see MMRCA, LCA MK2 and upg Su 30 MKIs beeing inducted into IAF.


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## sancho

*Bad (but expected) news for EF!*



> *In March 2010* will complete the *study* for the installation of radar active devices scanned (AESA) in the Eurofighter Typhoon, a mechanism for repositioning (repositioner) antenna for greater coverage...
> ...Mr. Chilntits said the *AESA radar will be installed beginning in the Eurofighter Tranche 3B around 2015* and back to the fighters of Tranche 2 and 3A. Of the 6 Flight Line Replacement Information (LRI) of Captor, maintained and modified the receiver / processor and replaced the mechanical antenna and the transmitter device of AESA, the band waveguides by a new beam-forming unit (beamformer) and the power supply.



Countdown to the AESA radar of Eurofighter

That means no EF for IAF with AESA in 2013/14, when the first MMRCA winners should arrive and the licence production in India should start.


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## gogbot

sancho said:


> *Bad (but expected) news for EF!*
> 
> 
> 
> Countdown to the AESA radar of Eurofighter
> 
> That means no EF for IAF with AESA in 2013/14, when the first MMRCA winners should arrive and the licence production in India should start.



Well thats pretty much it, for EF.


Boeing it is then. with a vague distan chance for Rafael


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## Hulk

gogbot said:


> Well thats pretty much it, for EF.
> 
> 
> Boeing it is then. with a vague distan chance for Rafael



The order is going to be split 100 each or maybe more between Rafael and SH. With Rafael comes TOT which helps LCA and MCA, with SH we get best AESA.


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## gogbot

indianrabbit said:


> The order is going to be split 100 each or maybe more between Rafael and SH. With Rafael comes TOT which helps LCA and MCA, with SH we get best AESA.



Come on you know it is not going to be split.

The costs would be to high.

Although i can certainly understand how we would be getting the best of both world through this method.

Its drain on logistics.

But if we retire all our migs, except the Mig-29 and replace them with the two planes it would be acceptable.

Dam, i would want them to choose this option but.

but it is just a dream, they show no intention on choosing dual platforms.


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## RPK

Russia Offer Development of Advanced RADARs to India

As the race in the Indian Air Force's $10-billion tender for 126 combat jets reached the crucial stage of flight trials, Russia, on top of a full technology transfer, is offering India
help in building its own advanced radar. This would put India in the elite league of manufacturers of some of the most sophisticated defence equipment.

"We are ready to develop a new advanced radar jointly with India," said Vyacheslav Tishchenko, head of the Phazotron-NIIR Corporation. The company has built Russia's first Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar, Zhuk-ME, for the MiG-35 fighter, the Russian contender in the IAF tender for the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA). Two planes will go to India next month for flight evaluation trials.

Also in the fray are the U.S. F-16 and F-18, the French Dassault's Rafale, the Swedish Saab Gripen and the Eurofighter Typhoon. Transfer of technology is a prime requirement in the MMRCA tender, but as far as the radar is concerned, Russia alone seems prepared to meet the demand in full. "Out of six-seven countries in the world that have the know-how to build radars for combat jets, only two &#8212; Russia and the U.S. &#8212; domestically produce the full range of radar components," Phazotron's chief designer Yuri Guskov said.

Raytheon, the U.S. company that manufactures radars for the F-18 fighter, has already said it would only transfer "limited" technology "up to the level the U.S. government allows us." This means America's European competitors in the MMRCA tender will also face restrictions on the transfer of technologies sourced from U.S. companies. Russia is the only bidder which does not depend on the U.S. for any aircraft technologies, including the radar.


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## karan.1970

indianrabbit said:


> The order is going to be split 100 each or maybe more between Rafael and SH. With Rafael comes TOT which helps LCA and MCA, with SH we get best AESA.



My money is on Mig 35 or F 18 with a tilt towards Mig 35


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## sancho

indianrabbit said:


> The order is going to be split 100 each or maybe more between Rafael and SH. With Rafael comes TOT which helps LCA and MCA, with SH we get best AESA.






> *126 MRCA to be acquired from single vendor *
> 
> Bangalore, Feb 8 (ANI): Chief of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal S P Tyagi today said that technology and capability are of utmost importance for the acquisition of the 126 multi-role combat aircraft (MRCA), besides the numbers.
> 
> *All the 126 aircraft would be of the same type*, with one squadron being formed of the directly supplied aircraft *from one source*, and the rest would be developed here under licensed production. The aircraft would be *acquired from a single vendor*.
> 
> Calling procurement a complex procedure, Tyagi said here on the second day of the five-day sixth Aero India Show, "There's a requirement of numbers, but technology and capability are equally important. Numbers can be altered as and when required. There will be global competition, where multiple vendors will bid,* but all the aircraft will be acquired from one source...*"



126 MRCA to be acquired from single vendor

Old news, but it makes it clear again that MMRCA will not be splitted! The only point that is different from then is, that the IN might get an advantage from this competition and get some naval versions of the winner too. But they are not bound on it, have way more time and can chose that vendor, that offers the best for them.


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## RPK

*UPDATE 1-Eurofighter leading race for India deal- ambassador​*1:09pm EST
** Eurofighter leading race for $10.4 bln contract
* Source says test flights expected to conclude by April
* India to order new refuelling ship from Finmeccanica*
By Valentina Rusconi
ROME, Jan 22 (Reuters) - The Eurofighter Typhoon is "leading the race" to win a contract from the Indian government for 126 fighter jets, valued at around $10.4 billion, India's ambassador to Italy said on Friday.
"We have shortlisted four to five countries, then the trial process and evaluation will follow. Eurofighter is one of them, in which Italy is involved, and it's leading the race," ambassador Arif Shahid Khan told Reuters after a meeting with a senior aid to Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi.
Boeing's <BA.N> F/A-18 Super Hornet, France's Dassault <AVMD.PA> Rafale, Lockheed Martin Corp's <LMT.N> F-16, Russia's MiG-35, Sweden's Saab <SAABb.ST> JAS-39 Gripen and the Eurofighter Typhoon, produced by a consortium of European companies <EAD.PA><BAES.L><SIFI.MI>, are competing for the order.
Defence industry experts do not expect an immediate decision.
A Eurofighter source said the test flights were expected to finish by April, and a decision would follow.
He also said German President Horst Koehler would visit India in early February to sign an agreement on defence, security and technology.
India is one of the world's biggest arms importers, and the government plans to spend more than $30 billion on defence upgrades over the next five years to counter potential threats from Pakistan and China. [ID:nDEL380118]
The ambassador said India would order from Italy's Finmeccanica <SIFI.MI> a refuelling ship, following the purchase of a similar vessel worth around $200 million. "We are really satisfied," he said.
The ambassador said Berlusconi would visit India this year and the two countries were discussing economic cooperation in other fields, such as agriculture. He said discussions were also underway for Alitalia to start flights between the two countries. (Editing by Rupert Winchester)
&#169; Thomson Reuters 2009. All rights reserved. Users may download and print extracts of content from this website for their own personal and non-commercial use only. Republication or redistribution of Thomson Reuters content, including by framing or similar means, is expressly prohibited without the prior written consent of Thomson Reuters. Thomson Reuters and its logo are registered trademarks or trademarks of the Thomson Reuters group of companies around the world.
Thomson Reuters journalists are subject to an Editorial Handbook which requires fair presentation and disclosure of relevant interests.

UPDATE 1-Eurofighter leading race for India deal- ambassador | Reuters


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## gogbot

rpraveenkum said:


> *UPDATE 1-Eurofighter leading race for India deal- ambassador​*1:09pm EST
> ** Eurofighter leading race for $10.4 bln contract
> * Source says test flights expected to conclude by April
> * India to order new refuelling ship from Finmeccanica*
> By Valentina Rusconi
> ROME, Jan 22 (Reuters) - The Eurofighter Typhoon is "leading the race" to win a contract from the Indian government for 126 fighter jets, valued at around $10.4 billion, India's ambassador to Italy said on Friday.
> "We have shortlisted four to five countries, then the trial process and evaluation will follow. Eurofighter is one of them, in which Italy is involved, and it's leading the race," ambassador Arif Shahid Khan told Reuters after a meeting with a senior aid to Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi.
> Boeing's <BA.N> F/A-18 Super Hornet, France's Dassault <AVMD.PA> Rafale, Lockheed Martin Corp's <LMT.N> F-16, Russia's MiG-35, Sweden's Saab <SAABb.ST> JAS-39 Gripen and the Eurofighter Typhoon, produced by a consortium of European companies <EAD.PA><BAES.L><SIFI.MI>, are competing for the order.
> Defence industry experts do not expect an immediate decision.
> A Eurofighter source said the test flights were expected to finish by April, and a decision would follow.
> He also said German President Horst Koehler would visit India in early February to sign an agreement on defence, security and technology.
> India is one of the world's biggest arms importers, and the government plans to spend more than $30 billion on defence upgrades over the next five years to counter potential threats from Pakistan and China. [ID:nDEL380118]
> The ambassador said India would order from Italy's Finmeccanica <SIFI.MI> a refuelling ship, following the purchase of a similar vessel worth around $200 million. "We are really satisfied," he said.
> The ambassador said Berlusconi would visit India this year and the two countries were discussing economic cooperation in other fields, such as agriculture. He said discussions were also underway for Alitalia to start flights between the two countries. (Editing by Rupert Winchester)
> © Thomson Reuters 2009. All rights reserved. Users may download and print extracts of content from this website for their own personal and non-commercial use only. Republication or redistribution of Thomson Reuters content, including by framing or similar means, is expressly prohibited without the prior written consent of Thomson Reuters. Thomson Reuters and its logo are registered trademarks or trademarks of the Thomson Reuters group of companies around the world.
> Thomson Reuters journalists are subject to an Editorial Handbook which requires fair presentation and disclosure of relevant interests.
> 
> UPDATE 1-Eurofighter leading race for India deal- ambassador | Reuters



How can it lead without even completing the trials ?

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## RPK

Two Spanish Eurofighter Typhoon bring down 7 F-15 idrw.org

During recent exercises, NATO Air Forces carried out several training combat engagements known as DACT, Dissimilar Aircraft Combat training, involving different types of aircraft. In this situation, where the air dominance is a matter, the Eurofighter Typhoons turned out to be the leading air-to-air fighter jets.

Once again, the outstanding performance of the Eurofighter Typhoon was evident in a dogfight simulation. The 111 Squadron of the Spanish Air Force as well as the 493rd Squadron of the U.S. Air Force were deployed for training in ***** Air Base, Gran Canaria. The Spanish Squadron attended the training with a total of six Eurofighter Typhoons. The U.S. Air Force deployed F-15s. 
In an interview on the exercise, Major Juan Balesta, the 41-year old Commander of the 111 Squadron stressed that a two-ship formation of Eurofighters involved in a dogfight simulation &#8220;against&#8221; the F-15s enjoyed full control of the engagement. The Typhoons managed to smash a formation of eight F-15s which had the role of the attacker with the first Eurofighter jet managing to &#8220;shoot down&#8221; four F-15 fighter jets. The second Eurofighter managed to disable three F-15 jets. Eventually the pilots were using the Eurofighter Typhoon to full capacity and taking advantage of its enormous capabilities. Trump that.


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## skyisthelimit

when will see the whole drama of trials and evaluation end? in short i mean when do we expect to have the final decision?

Go Go Eurofighter....


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## AVIAN

skyisthelimit said:


> when will see the whole drama of trials and evaluation end? in short i mean when do we expect to have the final decision?
> 
> Go Go Eurofighter....



Key objective is not only to purchase the jet but also to encourage participating contenders to set up their business in India. And hence you can see so many JV's are getting birth since inception of MRCA between Indian private and Foriegn Firm. Saab despite fully knowing about its not having enough chance has form a JV with TATA to develop next generation fighter jet.


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## skyisthelimit

AVIAN said:


> Key objective is not only to purchase the jet but also to encourage participating contenders to set up their business in India. And hence you can see so many JV's are getting birth since inception of MRCA between Indian private and Foriegn Firm. Saab despite fully knowing about its not having enough chance has form a JV with TATA to develop next generation fighter jet.



thats a very gud news....i am aware of it...these JVs will surely help indian firms...and at last indian govt will give a chance to private firms...we have for too long depended on ordnance and other PSUs which aint giving to much results either....we should also follow like USA....let private firms excel in defence....but control all exports from the same.


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## sancho

gogbot said:


> How can it lead without even completing the trials ?


Exacty and what does the ambassador say exactly?


> "We have shortlisted four to five countries, then the trial process and evaluation will follow. Eurofighter is one of them, in which Italy is involved, and it's leading the race"



Russia, France, USA, Sweden and the EF consortiums countries are the 4-5 countries that are in the competition.
After the selection of all fighters that fulfilled IAF requirements (which was all), the trials have started and when they are over, there might be 2-3 shortlisted to the final evaluation.
So this is completely nothing new, only again a summary of what happend in MMRCA till the moment!
The only new info is the the EF is leading, but as you correctly said, it wasn't even at the trials yet, so the only point where he might had the lead, was after receiving the infos from all vendors.

The key for EF in MMRCA will be clearly its AESA radar development and A2G capabilities, without these it will have no chance.


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## Lankan Ranger

*Typhoon is "Leading the Race" to Win Indian MMRCA Contract *

Jan 22 (Reuters) - The Eurofighter Typhoon is "leading the race" to win a contract from the Indian government for 126 fighter jets, valued at around $10.4 billion, India's ambassador to Italy said on Friday."We have shortlisted four to five countries, then the trial process and evaluation will follow. Eurofighter is one of them, in which Italy is involved, and it's leading the race," ambassador Arif Shahid Khan told Reuters after a meeting with a senior aid to Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi.

Boeing's (BA.N) F/A-18 Super Hornet, France's Dassault (AVMD.PA) Rafale, Lockheed Martin Corp's (LMT.N) F-16, Russia's MiG-35, Sweden's Saab (SAABb.ST) JAS-39 Gripen and the Eurofighter Typhoon, produced by a consortium of European companies (EAD.PA)(BAES.L)(SIFI.MI), are competing for the order.Defence industry experts do not expect an immediate decision.A Eurofighter source said the test flights were expected to finish by April, and a decision would follow.

He also said German President Horst Koehler would visit India in early February to sign an agreement on defence, security and technology.India is one of the world's biggest arms importers, and the government plans to spend more than $30 billion on defence upgrades over the next five years to counter potential threats from Pakistan and China. The ambassador said India would order from Italy's Finmeccanica a refuelling ship, following the purchase of a similar vessel worth around $200 million. "We are really satisfied," he said.

The ambassador said Berlusconi would visit India this year and the two countries were discussing economic cooperation in other fields, such as agriculture. He said discussions were also underway for Alitalia to start flights between the two countries. 

ASIAN DEFENCE: Typhoon is "Leading the Race" to Win Indian MMRCA Contract

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## Lankan Ranger



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## Lankan Ranger




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## Lankan Ranger




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## Supersonic26

If its true then hurray but i doubt the news because i think some more jet fighters trial pending? If all trial done then i think italy testing the water. They know short after they say india will buy typhoon india will comment. Hmm. Lets see. Am all in favore of typhoon. There is no jet fighter that can take on typhoon. Only F-22 raptor superior.


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## Roby

already posted and discussion is going on here

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/45226-reuters-reporting-typhoon-will-win-mmrca.html


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## faithfulguy

Supersonic26 said:


> If its true then hurray but i doubt the news because i think some more jet fighters trial pending? If all trial done then i think italy testing the water. They know short after they say india will buy typhoon india will comment. Hmm. Lets see. Am all in favore of typhoon. There is no jet fighter that can take on typhoon. Only F-22 raptor superior.



I thought MKI can take on Typhoon?


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## Supersonic26

faithfulguy said:


> I thought MKI can take on Typhoon?



it can buddy but MKI bit 'inch' behind Typhoon. Indian airforce knows better then me. MKI lack after burner and the climbing rate and turning speed of Typhoon. Both are best jet fighters but Typhoon has the edge over MKI. If PDF would make this forum with file upload option then i can upload the latest typhoon video in which its cutting the wind like knife cutting the butter. Typhoon and rafale both best jet fighters. i wish the news of Tyhoon the front runner is true. i will give party to my colony friends lol.

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## karan.1970

Supersonic26 said:


> it can buddy but MKI bit 'inch' behind Typhoon. Indian airforce knows better then me. MKI lack after burner and the climbing rate and turning speed of Typhoon. Both are best jet fighters but Typhoon has the edge over MKI. If PDF would make this forum with file upload option then i can upload the latest typhoon video in which its cutting the wind like knife cutting the butter. Typhoon and rafale both best jet fighters. i wish the news of Tyhoon the front runner is true. i will give party to my colony friends lol.



Hey friend.. Why dont you upload to youtube and paste the link here.. would love to see it in action


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## AVIAN

Eurofighter can certainly win this MRCA competition, but in the end it all boils down to how good it is at serving IAF.


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## rohit.tiwari

My first post here 

here's the link for the video of the EF !
youtube.com/watch?v=JCuG-yvc2bk


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## Roby

^^^
I will post it for you...

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## skyisthelimit

*For India's single-largest defence deal, SAAB offers 'independent choice'*

Inclement weather conditions are set to jeopardise the flight display of a Gripen C fighter aircraft at the Skaraborg Air Force Wing, located near Lidkoping in south central Sweden. Till, the enthusiasm of a rookie pilot of the Swedish Air Force carries the day.

He steps forward, and takes the single-seater machine into the clouds, performs a series of fascinating manoeuvres within a very limited airspace pocket (so that the plane is visible), makes a perfect landing and brings the plane to a halt within 500 metres after touching down, all in a matter of minutes.

The pilot's eagerness to perform is somewhat mirrored in the way the Swedish company SAAB, the manufacturer of the Gripen aircraft, is going about competing for IAF's $10.2 billion (around Rs 48,000 crore) worth tender for 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft.

In race with the US's Boeing and Lockheed Martin, the French d'Assault, European consortium EADS and the Russian MiG for what is touted as India's single-largest defence deal ever, SAAB is positioning its Gripen NG (Next Generation) aircraft as an "independent choice" that will offer the IAF a product suited for its needs with enough room for customisation.

"Swedish support provides an 'independent image' given our non-aligned past," SAAB's Deputy Director Jonas Harma says. "What we bring to the table is the freedom of choice. We believe that we have the product. We are not telling the customers what weapons they need to take with the aircraft," says Eddy de la Motte, SAAB's Director India.

The Gripen NG, which will be ready by the end of 2010, is billed as a multi-role combat aircraft that can perform an array of air-to-air and air-to-surface operations, ensuring flight safety and low operating costs at the same time. It is currently under a variety of evaluations and trials at Malmen Air Base in Linkoping.

The Phase I and Phase III trials for the Gripen IN have already been conducted in Sweden with two IAF pilots having flown the Gripen planes in Sweden. The critical Phase II Flight Evaluation Tests, that will involve flying in extreme weather conditions in India, will begin sometime mid-March and continue for a fortnight.

The Machine

With a length of 14.1 metres and a wingspan of 8.6 metres, the Gripen IN, the customised Indian version of the Gripen NG, will boast of a thrust of 10 tonnes and a carrying capacity of 6.5 tonnes of payload and 7 tonnes of fuel. With a super-cruise capability (the ability to fly supersonic without using the afterburner, thus enabling fuel savings and range enhancement) of more than 1.2 Mach, the Gripen IN will also offer manoeuvrability up to 9 G.

Having a maximum flying range of more than 4,000 km, the Gripen IN is being billed as a fighter plane that will require less than 500 metres of landing space, less than an hour for its engine replacement and less than 10 minutes of turnaround time. Most importantly, its cost per flight hour has been estimated to be less than $3,000, thus making it a very cost-effective proposition.

Adding to the plane's capabilities will be second-generation Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar, the Integrated Electronic Warfare System, the Missile Approach Warner, data links and latest generation weapons from all over the world.

(The writer visited Sweden as part of a media group hosted by SAAB)

:: Bharat-Rakshak.com - Indian Military News Headlines ::


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## jha

a new article ...have a go...
NATO Fighter Plane War Games Turn to a Eurofighter Sales Pitch - NATO Warplanes and India Fighter Bids - Popular Mechanics
When there is more than $10 billion in weapons sales at stake, marketing can trump diplomacy during NATO air combat training. 

NATO pilots routinely participate in war games with its members, during which flights of "red team" airplanes play the opposition and square off against NATO pilots in realistic encounters. Recently, a squadron of pilots of the Spanish air force flew Eurofighter Typhoons, a multirole airplane with good dogfighting abilities, in mock combat against U.S. Air Force F-15s in the skies around ***** Air Base, Gran Canaria. 

The engagements, judging by a press release issued by Eurofighter, did not go well for the Americans. The Typhoons tore into a formation of eight F-15s playing the role of the attacker. 

One Typhoon shot downthat is, by the rules of the game, was able to target and lock ontofour F-15 fighter jets. Another Typhoon disabled three F-15 jets during the exercise. 

"Eurofighters involved in a dogfight simulation against the F-15s enjoyed full control of the engagement," the release says. "Trump that." 

That's some undiplomatic trash talk. But some serious money may be motivating the European NATO members to be disparaging. The crowing from Eurofighter (which is run by a consortium of the German-Italian-U.K.-Spanish governments) is not aimed at the United States, but at India. Eurofighter's Typhoon is considered a leading contender in a $10.4 billion contract to sell 126 warplanes to India. 
Beating a storied airplane during training exercises is a nice advertisementone that the Eurofighter marketing team obviously could not help but trumpet. 

The contest for the Indian contract will be tight. One of the Typhoon's competitors is the F/A-18 Superhornet, a more modern and capable warplane than the F-15. The Superhornet, made by Boeing, is involved in other international sales fights, including an imminent warplane contract for Japan, against Eurofighter's Typhoon. 

But it's not only about capabilities. The U.S. government is reluctant to export some of its defense technology to other nations, a fact that complicates U.S. defense firms' sales pitches. The best dogfighter in existence today is likely the F-22 Raptor, but the cost and restrictive U.S. export laws make the stealth warplane prohibitive to international customers. On the European side, a lingering argument about the design of advanced radar in the Typhoon might be seen as a hindrance to a big sale. But most nations would choose to tackle a technical problem over a diplomatic one. Engineers are able solve problems quicker than politicians and diplomats.

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## Kinshuk

Arey what about its ground attack capabilities, I want this MMRCA fighter to be like one, that we don't have to bark to convince ours in better. lol just kidding that happens most of the time everywhere.

What missile package comes with it?

And when you buy a fighter jet, does refill comes with it like a pen. Oh i mean does it come with free missiles and weapon systems? Please reply soon as I have to go for a smoke.


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## Kinshuk

How these F**kers know that EF is leading when we Indians don't know this?

Our media sleeping or what? WTF is this non-sense? Please enlighten me.


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## sathruvinasakh

If EF wins the contract,it will get the price further more down.
Advanced technology compared to what US/Russia/Sweden is offering but at a marginal price and with lot of controllability.Prone to sanctions and iron sterings.


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## Dark Angel

*Nice vid*

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## karan.1970

Kinshuk said:


> How these F**kers know that EF is leading when we Indians don't know this?
> 
> Our media sleeping or what? WTF is this non-sense? Please enlighten me.



Its all posturing. Going by the record of GOI decisions on this , the final call is still 9-12 months away. My money is on Mig 35 or F 18 SA though

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## sancho

sathruvinasakh said:


> If EF wins the contract,it will get the price further more down.
> Advanced technology compared to what US/Russia/Sweden is offering but *at a marginal price* and with lot of controllability.Prone to sanctions and iron sterings.


Nearly all reports say it is to most expensive fighter in the competition, but the question will be is he worth the cost?
For a nation that search for a new air superiority fighter with latest radar, avionics and A2A weapons it would, no doubt about it. That's why it is a good choice for Saudi Arabia and maybe even for Japan, if they don't go for 5. gen fighters.
But for a nation like India, where multi role capabilities are important and similar A2A capabilities are already in the air force (also 5.gen fighters under development), the lack of capabilities will make such costs not worth it.


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## sancho

Does anybody know when the A2G trials will be and who will be first?

If I'm not wrong the Mig 35 and one of the US fighters were ready to come to India for it, the others will held them in the vendor countries right?


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## RPK

Russia optimistic about MIG-35`s victory in IAF tender

Moscow: Russia today expressed optimism that the MiG-35 fighter jets fielded by it in the Indian Air Force's tender for acquisition of 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) will prove an edge over its Western rivals and ultimately win the contract. 


"We hope that our aircraft would be the winner," chief of Rosoboronexport (ROE), Russia's sole state intermediary agency for export-import of defence related technologies and services, Anatoly Isaikin said. 

"Russia is competing with top aircraft manufacturers of the US and Europe. Such tenders are carried out in several stages and takes time. We are in the middle and so far, no one has dropped out," he said. 

Isaikin said MiG-35 is an air superiority fighter capable of taking on the current fourth and prospective fifth generation combat aircraft. 

"From the point of view of technological inputs it is virtually a fifth generation fighter, unmatched by any of the European fighters," he said. 

ROE has fielded the MiG-35 fighter jets developed by RAC MiG against American rivals F-16 of Lockheed Martin and F/A-18 of Boeing, France's Rafale, Swedish JAS-39 Gripen (SAAB) and European Eurofighter Typhoon (EADS). 

ROE's exports in 2009 amounted to USD 7.4 billion of which over 50 per cent were related to fighter aircraft, Isaikin told a press conference here today.

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## RPK

India May Buy More Than 126 Fighter Jets, Boeing Says (Update1) - Bloomberg.com

Feb. 1 (Bloomberg) -- *India may order &#8220;many more&#8221; than the 126 fighter jets *it has sought bids for as it upgrade its armed forces, according to Boeing Co. 

&#8220;I think 126 could be an initial number and there could be many more airplanes than that,&#8221; Joe Song, vice president of the company&#8217;s defense business, said in an interview in Singapore today. &#8220;They see the need to update an ageing fleet.&#8221; 

Boeing, the second-largest U.S. defense contractor, is competing for the order, which may be worth as much as $11 billion, with companies including Lockheed Martin Corp., and Dassault Aviation SA. The companies submitted bids in April 2008 to supply the jets as the Indian air force modernizes its predominantly Russian-made fleet. 

*India may decide on the order by March 2011* as field trials of the planes began in 2009, Defense Minister A.K. Antony has said. Sitanshu Kar, a ministry spokesman, today said he couldn&#8217;t offer any immediate comment on buying more jets. 

The plan to buy 126 jets is the biggest fighter-plane order in 15 years worldwide, Chicago-based Boeing has said. Boeing&#8217;s F/A-18 E/F Super Hornet is competing with Dassault&#8217;s Rafale, Lockheed&#8217;s F-16, Russia&#8217;s MiG-35, Saab AB&#8217;s Gripen and the Eurofighter Typhoon from a joint venture of Airbus SAS, BAE Systems Plc and Italy&#8217;s Finmeccanica SpA.


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## jha

*Goodrich Upgrades Eurofighter Typhoon's Ground Proximity Warning System*

INGAPORE, Feb. 1, 2010 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- SINGAPORE AIRSHOW -- Goodrich Corporation (NYSE: GR) has initiated the upgrade of the TERPROM® Ground Proximity Warning System (GPWS) for the Eurofighter Typhoon aircraft. The upgrade adds air-to-surface targeting information to the existing TERPROM predictive ground proximity warning system capabilities, and is expected to be incorporated into the future batch enhancement upgrade to the aircraft. The system is being provided by Goodrich's Sensors and Integrated Systems team, from the Plymouth, UK-based Atlantic Inertial Systems (AIS) business that was acquired by Goodrich in December, 2009.

The upgraded TERPROM will use its terrain database and proprietary ranging functionality to provide the Typhoon's attack computer with accurate position, height and range data for ground targets selected by the pilot. This data will then be used to refine the firing solution, increasing the accuracy of weapons delivery. The system supports the enhanced ground attack role of the Typhoon and the ongoing desire to reduce collateral damage without the need for additional sensors or weapon enhancements.

Over 5,000 commercial, military and rotary wing aircraft worldwide are fitted with TERPROM, a portable software system that can be hosted in third-party hardware or provided as a complete line replaceable unit.

Goodrich Corporation, a Fortune 500 company, is a global supplier of systems and services to aerospace, defense and homeland security markets. With one of the most strategically diversified portfolios of products in the industry, Goodrich serves a global customer base with significant worldwide manufacturing and service facilities. 

Goodrich Upgrades Eurofighter Typhoon&#039;s Ground Proximity Warning System


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## gogbot

rpraveenkum said:


> India May Buy More Than 126 Fighter Jets, Boeing Says (Update1) - Bloomberg.com
> 
> Feb. 1 (Bloomberg) -- *India may order many more than the 126 fighter jets *it has sought bids for as it upgrade its armed forces, according to Boeing Co.
> 
> I think 126 could be an initial number and there could be many more airplanes than that, Joe Song, vice president of the companys defense business, said in an interview in Singapore today. They see the need to update an ageing fleet.
> 
> Boeing, the second-largest U.S. defense contractor, is competing for the order, which may be worth as much as $11 billion, with companies including Lockheed Martin Corp., and Dassault Aviation SA. The companies submitted bids in April 2008 to supply the jets as the Indian air force modernizes its predominantly Russian-made fleet.
> 
> *India may decide on the order by March 2011* as field trials of the planes began in 2009, Defense Minister A.K. Antony has said. Sitanshu Kar, a ministry spokesman, today said he couldnt offer any immediate comment on buying more jets.
> 
> The plan to buy 126 jets is the biggest fighter-plane order in 15 years worldwide, Chicago-based Boeing has said. Boeings F/A-18 E/F Super Hornet is competing with Dassaults Rafale, Lockheeds F-16, Russias MiG-35, Saab ABs Gripen and the Eurofighter Typhoon from a joint venture of Airbus SAS, BAE Systems Plc and Italys Finmeccanica SpA.



Why dont they just get 200 and call it a day.

That will guarantee India a minimum of 500 advanced Multirole aircraft by 2020.


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## su-47

gogbot said:


> Why dont they just get 200 and call it a day.
> 
> That will guarantee India a minimum of 500 advanced Multirole aircraft by 2020.



200 MRCA will cost too much. Remember MRCA is a stopgap meausre adopted due to severe LCA delays. 

Besides, now that PAKFA has flown, I would rather we use the fund to buy more of the 5th gen PAKFA than 4.5 gen MRCA.


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## gogbot

su-47 said:


> 200 MRCA will cost too much. Remember MRCA is a stopgap meausre adopted due to severe LCA delays.
> 
> Besides, now that PAKFA has flown, I would rather we use the fund to buy more of the 5th gen PAKFA than 4.5 gen MRCA.



Well i never liked the size of our fleets. its 32.5 squadrons right now.
To be increased to 42 squadrons by 2020


We should maintain an air fleet in the thousands. I am up for any pathway that lets as accomplish that..


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## hindustan

i think we should but 200+ and the order should be in two diffrent types 

rafale and f 18
or 
rafale and mig 35


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## yashraj

MIG 35 is out yaar................
It's only between F-18 and Rafale


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## Raje amar

Beleave me guys it will be 130 F 18 plus 100 Rafale (IAF & Navy included)


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## unicorn148

Indian Navy is not interested in F18 it may opt for F35 or RAFALE or GRIPPEN NG


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## Dark Angel

*I think it should be 100 eurofighters as IAF will learn tons of new things due to its super maneuverability and stronger ties with EU
rest should be mig 35 as we have flown them for years & compatibility shoudnt be a problem *


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## LCA Tejas

We have been adapted to Russian stuffs, beautiful birds and killer machines at the same time.... Nothing can match them.... We should get mig-35 and rafael if possible


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## Dark Angel

*This will tell u in and out abt mig 35*



NDTV - JetSet - December 2007 - MiG-35 episode


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## jha

has any one considered the angle that if we go for say 100 f-18 ,we might get a chance to buy growlers, which no country has or, can offer us for atleast 15 yrs....
comments awaited...


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## su-47

Guys, there is no way we can buy two different platforms for MRCA. The logistics included would break IAF's back. right now we are operating too many different platforms. then there's LCA, MRCA and FGFA to come in. i am not counting MCA, coz hopefully by that time MiG-21s, Mig-27s and jags will be retired.

the only planes that won't give too much logistical problems are MiG-35 and Rafale (coz we operate MiG-29 and Mirage 2000). Even then, these fighters will add to logistics coz they are more advanced than the versions we operate.

So imagine the nightmare IAF will face if we get two different platforms for MRCA.


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## sancho

jha said:


> has any one considered the angle that if we go for say 100 f-18 ,we might get a chance to buy growlers, which no country has or, can offer us for atleast 15 yrs....
> comments awaited...


India will never get fully capable F18SH Growlers, it's even doubtful that Australia gets them and they are a close alley! 
Boeing offered a Growler lite for export customers, but the US Gov will have to decide and even if they are on offer for IAF, they won't be so special anymore, because they lack jamming pods and won't have much more to offer than EF, or Rafale in terms EWS. Not to forget that there are jamming pods available for our MKIs too
( http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/37431-su-30-mki-growler.html ), so we don't have to go for a totally new aircraft for such a role.


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## sancho

sathruvinasakh said:


> I guess Typhoon will win the deal.EADS is keeping its bets on India.They will reduce the price drastically compared to what the consortium countries paid for.
> EADS will transfer all technology unlike US/France.
> We will transfer whole engine technology and know-how,but you wont get such deal even in dreams from yankss.
> 
> We are trust worthy compared to other bidders.
> Most importantly,our birds dont come up with iron strings attached unlike American birds
> 
> I would love if India buys Typhoon.


Too expensive for too less multi role capabilities! IAF might get the engine for LCA, but nothing more.


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## Dark Angel

I have also said all this while Typhoon is the best choice hope this article is true......


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## skyisthelimit

12 Feb 2010 8ak/Eurofighter PR: On Monday, 15 February, aircraft of the German Air Force will take off from Germany for Bengaluru where the Eurofighter Typhoon will be examined by the Indian Air Force in the MMRCA Field Evaluation Programme. Until March, trials will also be conducted in Jaisalmer and Leh. There, the combat aircraft will demonstrate its desert and high altitude performance. Eurofighter Typhoon&#8217;s deployment to India coincides with the start of DEFEXPO 2010 in New Delhi where its capabilities will be showcased in a unique simulator at the Eurofighter Typhoon stand.

On 13 Aug 2009 Ajai Shukla reported on the contradictory signals that Eurofighter received from the Indian government. Overall, there is general agreement that it is a fabulous plane but the pricing is an issue. EADS would again be vary given its very recent negative experience with the Airbus mid-air refueller cancellation. While even the IAF had concluded that it was almost a done deal, the Finance Ministry shot it down on the basis that it was too expensive. Could the same happen if the Eurofighter was chosen for the MMRCA?

And another area of focus will be the Eurojet engine that powers the plane. It makes commercial sense for India to choose the same engine for the MMRCA that they would choose to power the Tejas. 8ak's latest coverage on Eurojet is here. 


8ak - Indian Defence News


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## manish123

We are leaving a very important point in evaluating these aircraft ie which company can offer the best package to the largest nos of netas and babus .This seems to be the only bone of contention between these fighters now.My bet goes to the americans since they are past masters of this art though russia and france are no slouches either


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## MACH

*HEY GUYS...DIGG THIS!*
NEW DELHI: India is set to spend a whopping US$ 200 billion on defence acquisitions over the next 12 years to replace its outdated 

Soviet-vintage inventory. 

According to a study by the India Strategic defence magazine, nearly half of this funding, or $100 billion, will go to the Indian Air Force (IAF) which would need to replace more than half of its combat jet fleet as well as the entire transport aircraft and helicopter fleet. 

The army needs new guns, tanks, rocket launchers, multi-terrain vehicles while the navy needs ships, aircraft carriers, an entire new range of submarines including nuclear-propelled and nuclear-armed. 

The army has the largest requirement of helicopters while the navy needs both combat jets, helicopters, and a fleet of nearly 100 carrier-borne combat jets. 

The details of the study will be published in March but according to a brief report in India Strategic's DefExpo show daily being published Monday, it is not that India has military ambitions but just that more than 70 percent of the inventory of the Indian Armed Forces is 20-plus years old, and needs to be replaced as well as augmented with the sophistication of modern technology. 

There have been few defence deals after the allegations over the acquisition of Bofors in the 1980s, and Russia, which inherited the Soviet military infrastructure, is unable to meet all the requirements. 

According to official Russian reports, only 10 percent of the Russian weapons could be described as modern. 

All the three services as well as the Coast Guard and paramilitary organisations also need satellites and net centricity. 

Plans to acquire surveillance aircraft, lesser in capability though the IAF's Phalcon AWACs and the navy's P8-I Multi-mission Maritime Aircraft (MMA) are also being worked out. 

Pilotless intelligence aircraft (drones) generally called UAVs, including those armed, are also on the top of the list of the three arms of the forces. 

The report says that the Pakistani 26/11 terror attack on Mumbai, in which scores were brutally killed and wounded, has given a wake up call to India and that the authorities had realized that 24-hour, 360-degree eyes and ears and preparedness to meet any attack were a necessity. 

That also meant increased diplomatic and security cooperation with other countries. 

It may be noted that the only major aircraft to be acquired by the IAF is the Su-30 MKI, some 280 of which have already been ordered in successive follow-on deals that do not involve fresh tendering and are easy to go through procedurally. 

IAF has a plan to build 45 combat squadrons (about 900 aircraft), up from its maximum effective strength of 39.5 squadrons a few years ago. Many of its aircraft have been phased out due to simple ageing.


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## jha

here you go... official websites of the contenders..


Official websites on the six contesters fighter aircraft in alphabetical order:

 Boeing IDS, F/A-18E/F-IN SUPER HORNET (United States)
Boeing: F/A-18E/F Super Hornet Home

 Dassault, RAFALE (France)
Dassault Aviation, the first completely omnirole fighter aircraft

 EADS, EUROFIGHTER TYPHOON (Europe)
Eurofighter Typhoon - Nothing Comes Close

 Lockheed Martin, F-16IL SUPER VIPER (United States)
F-16IN Super Viper | Lockheed Martin

 RAC MiG, MiG-35 (Russia)
- MiG-35/MiG-35D

 Saab, JAS 39 SUPER GRIPEN IN (Sweden)
Gripen - The wings of your nation - index


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## Cityboy

no meaning of buying mig-35 as we already having latest mig tech...typhoon seems to be better chice now


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## sudhir007

EADS to open R&D centre in Bangalore - Corporate News - livemint.com

New Delhi: European military consortium EADS Defence and Security Tuesday said it will open a research and development centre in Bangalore within two years that will provide employment to 200 Indian engineers.

The R&D centre would come up irrespective of the result of EADS&#8217; bids for the $10 billion Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) tenders, EADS Defence and Security chief executive officer (Military Air Systems) Bernhard Gerwert said at the DefExpo here.

&#8220;EADS looks at India not in short term goals. We already have a EADS Airbus Engineering Centre at Bangalore. The target is to shift some of our R&D units from Europe to Bangalore and set up a new R&D centre here to employ up to 200 engineers,&#8221; Gerwert said.

The MMRCA deal entails that the successful bidder should plough back 50&#37; of the contract amount back into India under the offsets clause.

EADS&#8217; Eurofighter Typhoon, a swing-role combat jet produced by Germany, Italy, Britain and Spanish companies, is competing in the bid and is scheduled to go in for flight trials in Bangalore beginning next week.

The fighter jet, which is already in service with British, Spanish, Italian, German, Austrian and Saudi Arabian air force, would undergo weapons trials in Germany and Britain later this year. 

Asked if EADS had made any progress in identifying offsets partners from India, Gerwert said his company had already held talks with domestic industries and signed some MoUs with them.

&#8220;We would soon finalise some joint ventures. But more than the offsets, EADS is interested in industrialisation of Indian defence. There is engineering capability for defence in India. That is how we see this partnership with India, not in terms of offsets, but in terms of helping domestic industries to gain capabilities,&#8221; he said.

The CEO said in case, Eurofighter Typhoon was selected by the IAF for the MMRCA deal, the Indian industry should have the capability to absorb the technology that EADS would provide along with the aircraft.

&#8220;That&#8217;s why we intend to start this R&D centre. But it is independent of the deal itself. The idea is capability building,&#8221; he said.

To a query on technology transfer and if the governments of countries participating in the consortium would be willing to issue licence for the purpose, Gerwert said when they had made the bids for the MMRCA, they had clearly mentioned about the transfer of technology and they had no problem with it then.

&#8220;The licence is yet to come. But I am sure there is no problem for any of the four governments,&#8221; he stressed.

On the Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar that India was looking for its MMRCA, Gerwert said they had already informed the IAF that they did not possess it but another consortium, Euroradar, was developing it which would be provided by 2015.

EADS is participating in the IAF&#8217;s 126 fighter jets competition.


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## sudhir007

*Saab and Samtel in cooperation on new generation Head-Up Display*

Saab and Samtel Display Systems have signed a Memorandum of Understanding to jointly develop, manufacture and market the RIGS Head-Up Display in India. RIGS is a new-generation advanced lightweight Head Up Display (HUD) designed by Saab to provide helicopters with a cost-effective display solution. 

New Delhi, February 16 
Samtel Display Systems (SDS), India&#8217;s leading private sector aerospace company, has signed a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) with Saab to jointly develop, manufacture and market RIGS Head-Up Displays (RIGS HUD) in India. The announcement was made by Mr. Micael Johansson, Senior Vice President and Head of Saab&#8217;s business area Electronic Defence Systems, and Mr. Puneet Kaura, Executive Director, SDS today at the 6th Defexpo 2010 being held at Pragati Maidan, New Delhi. 


For commercial and military market
SDS is already in advanced stages of developing Head Up Displays for fighter aircraft. Subsequent to this MoU, SDS will now also be involved in the development of RIGS HUD together with Saab. SDS and Saab will jointly market RIGS in India to potential Indian customers for the Indian commercial and military airborne market. SDS will be involved in the development of RIGS electronics and software and will also develop and manufacture parts of the RIGS HUD. Initially, the parts manufactured by SDS will be for the Indian market, with the potential of serving international market in the long run. SDS may also, at a later stage, leverage its relationship with HAL for the joint marketing activities of RIGS. 

&#8220;Our current goal with reference to this MoU is to help Saab serve the Indian market in the Head-Up Displays segment. But we are hopeful that through our focus on quality along with cost effectiveness this collaboration will extend to other international markets as well over the next few years,&#8221; says Mr. Puneet Kaura, Executive Director, SDS, about the collaboration.

*This is the second MoU to be signed between Saab and SDS. The first MoU identifies SDS as an offset partner for Saab for the MMRCA contract in which Saab&#8217;s fighter aircraft Gripen is one of the contenders.*

*&#8220;India is a very important market for us and is an important cornerstone of our overall global strategy. We are very confident about SDS&#8217; technological and manufacturing capabilities and are happy to partner with them. This collaboration marks our next step towards consolidating our position in the Indian aerospace and defense market,&#8221; said Mr Micael Johansson.*
SDS and Saab are both exhibiting at Defexpo 2010. The RIGS HUD can be viewed in the Saab stand in Hall 14 (stand 14.12), and at the SAMTEL stand in Hall 18 (stand 18.19G). 


About RIGS
The RIGS Head-Up Display provides pilots with information linked to flight and navigation as well as sighting, with aiming point and target reticule. It is easy to install and thus ideal for helicopters.

RIGS gives all-weather capability, ideal for flying and landing helicopters in challenging conditions, by presenting landing information and images from enhanced vision sensors enabling pilots to see through darkness, smog, smoke and various levels of snow, rain and fog. Safety is therefore enhanced via early detection of runway incursions and improved awareness of terrain during night and day operations.

RIGS consist of one or two display units, to serve one or two crew members in cockpit, and an electronics unit. The open system architecture allows customers to tailor applications to their specific needs and to upgrade the system capabilities.

Tapping on the vast experience in the development of HUD and display systems RIGS opens up endless display possibilities for users on new capabilities, increased safety and cost savings.


*About Samtel Display Systems *
*Samtel Display Systems (SDS) is a key Indian player in high-technology products for avionics and military applications in both domestic and international markets. SDS straddles the entire value chain from design, development, manufacture, testing, qualification, repair & maintenance and obsolescence management of avionics products and equipment for military as well as commercial aircraft. Its main products include various types of displays. SDS is a part of the Samtel Group, India&#8217;s largest integrated manufacturer of a wide range of displays for television, avionics, industrial, medical and professional applications, TV glass, components for displays, machinery and engineering services. 
Samtel Display Systems*

About Saab
Saab serves the global market with world-leading products, services and solutions ranging from military defence to civil security. Saab has operations and employees on all continents and constantly develops, adopts and improves new technology to meet customers&#8217; changing needs. 

With 13,300 employees, annual sales of SEK 23 billion, and 17 percent outlay in R&D, Saab is one of the major European defence and security players with a long history of association with Indian Defence. Saab develops and manufactures the Gripen combat aircraft, and other operations include command and control, electronic warfare, sensors, weapons, avionics communications etc

Saab and Samtel in cooperation on new generation Head-Up Display | Cision Wire

Reactions: Like Like:
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## marcos98

*SELEX Galileo's IRST selected for Gripen NG*
Saab has selected SELEX Galileo's Infrared Search & Track (IRST) system SKYWARD-G to equip its Gripen NG fighter.
http://www.selexgalileo.com/EN/Common/files/SELEX_Galileo/Press_Releases/PRSELEXGalileo_15_02_2010_IRST_NG_Gripen_ENG.pdf


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## marcos98

*Eurofighter: A Time To Shine *

MMRCA (Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft) testing begins this month for Eurofighter Typhoon in India as speculation rises as to who may win the new fighter jet deal to supply the Indian Air Force with 126 aircraft.

The Hot and High trails which kicked off last year with Boeings F/A-18 are taking place in Bangalore, over Jaisalmer in the Rajasthan desert under hot weather conditions and in the Leh area of Ladakh &#8211; Ladakh meaning "land of high passes" for high altitude testings. After having to wait patiently for our turn, finally February sees Eurofighter Typhoon in the hot seat, with the opportunity to put our highly advanced and robust capabilities to the test.

The trials will be heavily supported by the German Air Force, who will provide both the aircraft and appropriate air and ground crews. Two aircraft set off from Rostock/Laage on Monday destined for Bangalore. Eurofighter is excited to be participating in the trials and with a proven hot weather customer, Saudi Arabia, already in service, now is as good a time as any to shine under the Indian sun.

We will make sure to keep you updated with the Typhoons progress in India!


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## marcos98

*Eurofighter&#8217;s mission to India: making the shortlist *
Broadsword: Eurofighter&#8217;s mission to India: making the shortlist
by Ajai Shukla
Business Standard, 17th Feb 2010

On Monday, two Eurofighter Typhoon fighters of the Luftwaffe --- the German Air Force --- took off from the Laage Air Base in Germany on probably the most important mission any Typhoon has ever flown.

After touching down in Bangalore today, they will prepare for flight trials by Indian Air Force pilots, which begin on Monday. The outcome of those trials in Bangalore, Jaisalmer, and then Leh, will be crucial in determining whether 126 Typhoons, and possibly more later, will sport the roundels of the IAF.

The IAF has already tested four fighters in this six-aircraft, US $11 billion contest to select a Medium Multi-role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA): the American F/A-18 Super Hornet and the F-16IN Super Viper; the French Rafale; and the Russian MiG-35. On the heels of the Eurofighter will come the last contender: Sweden&#8217;s Gripen NG.

After the flight trials are over, IAF sources tell Business Standard,* the competition will narrow down to a short-list of three or four contenders; two fighters, they say, have already performed below par.* Then the commercial bids will be opened; MoD procedure mandates that the lowest bidder wins the contract.

Synchronised perfectly with the start of its flight trials, Eurofighter Typhoon has transported a flight simulator to Defexpo 2010, which is running in Delhi from 15-18th Feb. In that simulator, over the last three days, key Indian decision-makers have personally experienced the Eurofighter. These include Defence Minister AK Antony; the IAF chief, Air Chief Marshall PV Naik; the pilot overseeing flight-testing, Air Commodore Rakesh Dhir; and a host of VIPs, including Anand Mahindra.

Eurofighter&#8217;s next splash will be during Exercise Indradhanush, in October, when a group of RAF Typhoons fly into India, participating for the first time ever in the joint Royal Air Force-IAF exercise. That is expected to grab media attention exactly at the moment when the MoD is finalising its decision on which fighter to buy.

&#8220;The Eurofighter particiation in the exercise is not part of a plan&#8221;, the boss of Eurofighter GmbH, Bernhard Gerwert, told Business Standard. &#8220;The Luftwaffe is sending the fighters for flight testing; the Typhoons in the exercise are from the RAF. But this does reflect Eurofighter&#8217;s pan-European nature.&#8221;

Eurofighter&#8217;s careful public relations strategy reflects the skill with which Eurofighter has handled its MMRCA campaign. Unlike some of its contenders, which spent millions of dollars in promoting their fighters in India and participating in air shows for years, Eurofighter only launched its India campaign in 2008. The Typhoon itself was first displayed in India last February, at the Aero India 2009 in Bangalore.

Only French manufacturer, Dassault, which has offered the Rafale, has been more restrained. The Rafale has never been displayed in India.

Eurofighter&#8217;s campaign has also been enhanced by a growing list of sweeteners. Having earlier offered full &#8220;partnership&#8221; for India in the Typhoon programme, Defexpo 2010 has seen a ramping up of parent company, EADS&#8217; engineering centre in Bangalore.

Bernhard Gerwert elaborates, &#8220;We are shifting R&D out of Germany and into India. The Airbus Engineering Centre in Bangalore currently has 120 local engineers, who carry out civilian R&D for the airliner business. By 2012, this will have stepped up to 400 engineers for civilian R&D and 200 engineers working on military programmes.&#8221;

Gerwert clarifies that this does involve the politically sensitive transfer of jobs to India. Each one of the new engineers will be a new hiring.


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## sancho

*Rafale compilation part 1* (weapons and techs that are ready now, or will be integrated this year)

A2A with 6 Mica missiles (2-6 more are possible):








A2G with 6 Paveway (GBU 12, GBU 22), or AASM (similar to JDAM) bombs on multi pylons and a 1000Kg Paveway (GBU 24) bomb on the centerline station + Damocles targeting pod:


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## sancho

*Rafale compilation part 2* (weapons and techs that are ready now, or will be integrated this year)

A2G with Scalp cruise and Exocet anti-ship missile (up to 3 of each are possible):






In reconaissance role with Thales RECO-NG pod:




In tanker role with buddy-buddy refuelling pod:

Reactions: Like Like:
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## sancho

*Rafale compilation part 3* (weapons and techs that are under development, or would be good additions for IAF / IN)

A2A with Meteor long range BVR missile:










CFTs:










Kaver-Snecma engine:






Topsight HMS (a JV with Samtel):






Indigenous laser guided, instead of US Paveway bombs:






Astra BVR missile, as a cost-effective addition for medium range:






Maybe even Helenia (air-launched NAG) anti-tank missile, or the smaller version of Brahmos, that is under development.


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## sudhir007

AKE SVENSSON - Defense News

Swedish defense giant Saab is awaiting key decisions by officials far from Stockholm: Will Brazil and/or India order its Gripen fighter aircraft?

In general, the company is gradually moving away from its reliance on the Swedish market and expanding its international business. Saab is increasingly active in areas such as UAVs, where it is developing sense-and-avoid technology, and underwater maritime systems, in which the European Defence Agency (EDA) has expressed an interest.

Ake Svensson, who began his career at Saab in missile development in 1976, has led the company since 2003. He will step down Sept. 1 to become president of the Association of Swedish Engineering Industries.


*Q. How do you see Saab's export prospects in the next year or two, given that many European countries are in such deep financial trouble?*

A. Saab has gradually increased its international export business, with around 5 percent annual growth every year for the last 10 years. Meanwhile, it has been reducing the amount of business it does in Sweden. Currently, about two-thirds of its business is made up of exports, and about a third is done in Sweden. The company's biggest markets are in Europe, South Africa, Australia, the U.S. and in the Middle East.

If we're talking about the fighter aircraft market, then even if the financial situation is unfavorable in buyer countries, there are solutions. If a buying country is buying with the Swedish government, there are arrangements where that country can pay over a longer period. So it is possible even for countries in a poor financial situation to take part in programs.

For smaller acquisitions, such as camouflage or training systems, the financial crisis has not had so much of an impact. We're seeing delays in major programs as countries postpone the bigger acquisitions, while the small and medium-sized procurements are continuing. In Saab's year-end report for 2009, we had fewer orders than usual because of the lack of major orders due to countries postponing these sorts of decisions.



*Q. Is there a danger that Saab will be knocked out of the fighter market - both the aircraft and equipment in the aircraft - if it doesn't win contracts for its Gripen from Brazil and India?*

A. No, not knocked out. The Swedish Air Force and government made it very clear last year that they see the Gripen as a core component of the long-term future of the Swedish defense forces. The defense minister has said that the defense forces are looking to use it for the next 30 years.

The defense forces also need continuous upgrades. There are also customers in South Africa, the Czech Republic and Thailand who are looking to upgrade their fighters. We already have a customer base, whether we win the Brazil contract or not.



*Q. The Swedish government seems to be shifting from its traditional policy of buying domestically to one in which it will buy from foreign companies. What does that mean for Saab in terms of its areas of focus for the future?*

A. I expect to see more competition in Sweden. That coincides with Saab competing more on the international market. Sweden will be looking to buy more off-the-shelf or almost-off-the-shelf equipment. 

Here, we have a strong product portfolio competing inside and outside Sweden. The Swedish government realizes that by moving to off-the-shelf solutions, then some systems will need further development. 

Sweden has said that it will take part in international programs such as Neuron. For Neuron, Saab is the second biggest company in the consortium behind Dassault [the French aircraft manufacturer]. We're developing a UAV almost the size of the Gripen to fly autonomously, at high speed and far away. We're producing a demonstrator UAV that will be ready to fly in around two to three years. The technology being developed for this can then be used for manned and unmanned aerial vehicles.


*Q. What are the main features of Saab's more streamlined business portfolio that you have announced? Which areas are you focusing on to make profits?*

A. The focus is on five main business areas: aeronautics, including the fighter business; dynamics, with the emphasis on shoulder-launched types of weapons, lightweight missiles, underwater systems and camouflage systems; high-performance electronic defense systems (e.g., radar and countermeasures); integrated security and defense systems for command-and-control and for civil security; and support and services.

There is also a new relationship growing between the customer and industry. In the past, armed forces might have just wanted a radio, but now, they want an operating radio network. They may have wanted very specific equipment and maintenance services. Now, they want capabilities. 

For example: Afghanistan. In Afghanistan, Saab has sent its people to put in place the power supply and communications links for a camp. This has, with time, evolved into an infrastructure support capability that we can also apply in other areas as well, such as in civil security.

PPP [public-private partnership] business is also a big potential growth area for Saab. In a first step on this road, we have taken over responsibility for the SK 60 trainer system in Sweden, and we see more of this type of business on the horizon.

We are also looking out for partnerships or divestments for some parts of the business, but I can't say which areas for now.



*Q. What future do you see for your niche missiles business? Would you consider merging your missiles division with the missiles division of another company?*

A. One shouldn't rule anything out, but we're not losing sleep over that. We have a very strong portfolio in that field and lots of orders. Saab has a strong position on the lightweight missiles side. There is no immediate move to find a partner.



*Q. Do you anticipate making any changes to the company's shareholding structure? Is the fact that Britain's BAE Systems owns 20 percent of Saab good for the company?*

A. It is good that BAE Systems has two board members, as they are active in the board and have a lot of knowledge about the industry. 

Change to the shareholding is a question for the shareholders. 

As for when Saab is in competition with BAE products, the BAE members of the board leave the board meeting when such a situation arises.



*Q. Do you see potential gains for Saab if Nordic military, political and industrial cooperation moves ahead? If so, in which sectors?*

A. There should be an opportunity for the defense forces and industries of Nordic countries to work closer together, as we share the same geography and culture. It would have been helpful if Norway had chosen the Gripen last year, but they chose the Joint Strike Fighter. But there is potential in the Nordic region. 

In terms of cooperation, there are a number of projects where a Swedish system has been sold to Finland. There is also a small Saab operation in Finland. There is potential in all the areas in which Saab is working, but it depends on the Swedish defense forces wanting to cooperate.



*Q. The European Union recently agreed to look further into maritime surveillance. Can Saab provide solutions?*

A. Saab has a lot of airborne sensors, airborne early warning systems, maritime patrol installations, ship-based transponders for the location of ships, and underwater technology with sensor applications for close-to-shore, harbor and out-at-sea protection. We can integrate sensors into command-and-control systems so that operators can get a full picture of the situation. We've produced a demonstrator which is a joint management tool to keep track of ships in the Baltic Sea.

We have developed the medium-sized tactical helicopter UAV system Skeldar, which is now in the final stages of customer adaptations and qualification. The systems are very easy to operate, and the helicopters can be flown from a PC-based ground control station. The operator clicks on a map and can direct the helicopter to fly to or look at a particular position.

We have received a lot of interest for the Skeldar system, and we hope that there will be sufficient customer interest to give us the opportunity to further develop its capabilities for military use as well as for coastal and harbor protection.



*Q. The EDA is launching a new 60 million euro joint investment program in unmanned underwater systems, which may include new sensors and maritime mine detection capacities. Is Saab working on new products in this area?*


A. Yes, we have some underwater systems. We have developed specific technology for shallow waters and low salinity. We have torpedo and sensor systems already in operation. We also acquired a U.K. company called Seaeye a couple of years ago, which has produced similar underwater vehicles for oil platforms. The combination of Saab and Seaeye offers good potential to work in an EU program.



*Q. Is the UAV market a big focus for Saab? Where can Saab add value here?*

A. Even if rather rudimentary, current UAVs are effective in operations, but they can only fly in restricted airspace and not civil airspace alongside military and civilian aircraft. We're developing sense-and-avoid technology for that. Part of the key to getting the market up and running is for UAVs to be able to fly in unrestricted airspace. 


By Julian Hale in Brussels.


COMPANY PROFILE

* 2009 sales: 24.6 billion Swedish kronor ($3.4 billion)

* Net profit: 699 million Swedish kronor

* Employees: About 13,000

* Order bookings for 2009: 18.4 billion Swedish kronor

* Order backlog at end of 2009: 39.4 billion Swedish kronor

* Major defense products: Gripen fighter jet and weapon systems

Source: Defense News research


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## sudhir007

*Don?t delay fighter deal idrw.org*

At a time when the combat power of the Indian Air Force is at an all-time low (29 squadrons, against a sanctioned strength of 39.5 squadrons and a required strength of 45 squadrons), two significant events connected with the enhancement of its capabilities are underway without much fanfare and are hopefully gathering momentum quietly, away from the public gaze.
The first of these is the commencement of evaluation trials by teams from the Air Staff Test Establishment (ASTE) of six top-of-the-line combat aircraft from different countries which are contending for the mammoth $10-15 billion contract for 126 multi-role combat aircraft (MRCA) to be inducted into the Indian Air Force, to replace obsolescent aircraft in service and rejuvenate the fading combat strength of frontline squadrons.
The second is the maiden flight early this year of the Sukhoi-T50 (Pakfa), a fifth-generation fighter aircraft being jointly developed by India and Russia under an agreement between the two countries. The aircraft has been in the making since the early 1990s and is scheduled for production and induction into both air forces around 2015-2017. India is funding a percentage of the costs involved (between 25 to 50 per cent, according to different sources), and will also develop some of the integral software and hardware components.
The MRCA trials encompass the F-16 and F-18 from the United States, the MiG-35 from Russia, the Rafale from France, the Eurofighter Typhoon from a consortium of the European Union, and the Saab Viggen from Sweden, each a formidable contender in its own right. The trials will be under constant national and international scrutiny by the Indian government, the competing manufacturers and their governments as well as the aviation industry in general. Foreign intelligence services would also be undoubtedly watching from the sidelines, particularly of those countries with whom India&#8217;s relationships have traditionally been adversarial. Needless to say, whichever aircraft is finally selected, the induction of 126 MRCA will provide a quantum jump in the capabilities of the Indian Air Force.
The overall process is undoubtedly complex, but evaluation of the actual equipment against finite parameters and criteria set out in the Air Staff Requirements is perhaps the most objective part of it all. However, military and technical performances of the contending aircraft and financial terms and conditions of the contract only provide concrete inputs into the selection process. A critical part of the final decision has to be evolved in the more amorphous realm of India&#8217;s own geopolitical compulsions and strategic national interests, particularly with regard to the countries and blocs whose aircraft are being evaluated. These environments are necessarily unquantifiable and to that extent subjective, but nonetheless cannot be wished away.
In this broader geopolitical context, the ultimate selection of the aircraft will have to take into account the long-term relationships India wishes to maintain and develop with the vendor countries, in particular the United States and Russia, who are contesting the MRCA sweepstakes through their representative proxies &#8212; America&#8217;s F-16 and F-18 and Russia&#8217;s MiG-35. For these two countries, the contract has acquired the overtones of a prestige issue, and could even become a touchstone for future relationships with India, which at present is widely perceived as tilting towards the United States. Russia, on the other hand, is a valued and time-tested ally of long standing, though somewhat shaky on its feet after the end of the Cold War, but nevertheless a putative superpower and a potentially useful anchor for India in the context of the Sino-Pakistan axis.
Historical compulsions have created a strong Russian connection for the Indian Air Force, notwithstanding long-standing complaints at working levels in this country about difficult commercial negotiations with Russian partners. However, the government has nevertheless opted to link the overall future equipment profile of the Air Force with the Indo-Russian Sukhoi T-50 FGFA. This is where the evaluation trials of the MRCA interconnect with the development flights of the T-50 FGFA.
The Indian Air Force has traditionally suffered from excessive multiplicity of equipment and its associated problems. The same mistake should not be repeated in the case of the new MRCA. Logically speaking, therefore, the large fleet of the newly-acquired MRCA should not be inducted independent of future plans, but rather utilised as a lead-in series for the Sukhoi T-50 FGFA. This narrows down the field considerably, and there are some who suggest that instead of trials, India might as well have purchased the required additional numbers of Sukhoi-30 MKI, another outstanding aircraft from the same stable, already in squadron service with the Indian Air Force. The question that now arises is: Is the Russian fifth-generation aircraft, for which India has already committed financially, indeed the final choice for future aircraft for the Indian Air Force?
India has also to contend against itself and its institutionalised phobias of hyper-sanctimoniousness regarding defence transactions. The government has a record of abrupt and impromptu cancellations at the slightest of suspicions, no matter how grievous is the resultant self-inflicted injury on defence preparedness in terms of lost time and opportunities. While no right-thinking person can ever condone corruption, nevertheless a stage has also been reached when the country can no longer afford to throw out the baby with the bathwater by indiscriminately terminating entire series of trials of weapons under acquisition every time there is a suspicion of alleged wrongdoing, whether actual or imaginary. As these exceedingly complex trials of fighter aircraft for the Indian Air Force get under way, it is to be sincerely hoped that they are not interrupted for any reason.
The country must evolve a more rational system of investigation and fact-finding, to target specific parties within the process found to be directly or indirectly involved in any wrongdoing without halting the entire process and delaying weapons acquisition. The ghosts of Bofors have created enough havoc with the country&#8217;s defence preparedness. The time has come to finally exorcise them for the greater good of the nation.


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## Marxist

Israel defense officials advised their Indian counterparts to purchase the F16s, telling them that the US warplane performed better and was
better priced.i found it a forum jp link given by them is now not working


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## sancho

Adolf Hitler said:


> Israel defense officials advised their Indian counterparts to purchase the F16s, telling them that the US warplane performed better and was
> better priced.i found it a forum jp link given by them is now not working


But that was before the new competition was started, so they supported F16 B52 over Gripen C/D.


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## jha

Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) for first time is considering suing BAe Systems for not providing Tools, Machinery and Spares for the construction of BAe Hawk 132 in India, In 2004 India signed a contract with British Aerospace Manufacture BAE Systems for 66 Hawk Mk. 115Y export variant Hawk 132, 24 of this jets where supposed to be delivered by BAE Systems and rest to be manufactured in India by HAL based in Bangalore.

Trouble came out in open when soon after induction, a Hawk was lost in air accident, BAe systems initially blamed Pilot error for the cause of the jet, IAF inquiry found that Faulty spares were the reasons for the jets crash, soon many incidents of unprofessional ism shown by BAe system started coming out in open, Instead of solving the problems, BAe Systems was finding loop holes in the original contract to put the blame back on India.

Even on the Induction day in Feb 2008 IAF and HAL were struggling to make HAWK jets airworthy in front of A.K. Anthony Indias Defence minister and other dignitaries present at that time ,HAL was not only provided wrong tools and Machinery but also faulty and Second hand spares ,IAF had to limit the Training of the pilots on the jets , Grounding of HTT-32 due to design flaws effected air forces Training of new pilots in a big manner last year , things moved to such a situation where IAF has issued new Request for Information on new jet Trainers instead of a follow on orders on Hawks . BAe Systems have been in past done the same with other exports customers in Middle East.

Euro fighter Typhoon jets currently in India to take part in 10 Billion $ race to provide India with 126 jets in the MMRCA competition may take the beating due to BAe systems, Euro-fighter Typhoon which is been designed with three prime partners, one of them been BAe Systems. Defence Expert Rajesh Sharma told idrw.org that HAWK experience with HAL and IAF have not gone down well with officials, order cutbacks by Development partners in Europe has forced Euro fighter GmbH a Parent company to look for major orders outside, Only Export order has come from Saudi Arabia but since most of the jets will be manufactured in Europe and HAL which will be manufacturing more than 100 of this jets in India. if Euro fighter is selected HAL may face same ordeal it faced with HAWKs, Mr. Sharma also pointed out that European firm has a higher price for the jet compared to others jets, also spares are worth Gold, even up gradation costs as much of that of half cost of the jet which he was referring to Indo-French 10000 cores upgrade package for the IAFs Mirage2000s fleet.

Mr. Sharma also pointed out that Singapore went on and purchased F-15 due to uncertainty over Typhoon tranche 2 delivery dates and Saudi Arabia was only provided with Typhoon tranche 2 which were built for Royal British Air force , since AESA radar is the main Requirement in MMRCA deal Euro fighter Typhoon AESA is still in development and still to be integrated and accepted in any developing partner country of the jets which may delay the whole induction of this jets in Air force which is in urgent need of new jets to replace old Migs which have been phased out in recent time .

BAe Hawk 132 may shoot down Eurofighter in MMRCA idrw.org

Reactions: Like Like:
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## jha

chances of EF and RAFALE seems pretty grim now...come SH...

Reactions: Like Like:
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## DMLA

4MothaChina said:


> Well good luck acquiring the wrong jets lol



Sure the right ones are J-10 and jf-17! 

I hope govt. of India scraps the trials and launch a new rfp with chinese in the fray!!


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## Dark Angel

If we dont get our hands on EF, Rafale would be the next best


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## Dark Angel

4MothaChina said:


> Well good luck acquiring the wrong jets lol





If any of these jets is a mistake then i am sorry to say that u have made a mistake with ur entire fleet


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## sancho

jha said:


> chances of EF and RAFALE seems pretty grim now...come SH...


That they would be the costlies was clear from the beginning, but this problems with BAE indeed could be one more problem for EF. The EF IAF would get is pretty much the British EF, because it is the most developed. UK is the only consortium member that already paid for at least some A2G arms and techs integration, that's why the EF weapon trials will be in the UK too. The AESA radar is ITA/UK development, so no doubt that we have to deal with BAE more if we go for EF.


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## jha

Thats why i said EF is on a slippery track..

Reactions: Like Like:
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## zagahaga

dont get EF!!!!! mig 35 ohhhhhhh yeeeeeeee that a killer


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## LCA Tejas

zagahaga said:


> dont get EF!!!!! mig 35 ohhhhhhh yeeeeeeee that a killer



huh


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## lilaspr

Typhoon is still the best choice. Eurofighter conveyed to the IAF that they would have AESA ready by 2014-15, likely be when the MRCA enters service. 

I am sure the winner will blow the trumpet of a new strategic alliance with India and many future defence contracts running and yet to come. Anyway if India were to get 250 units of FGFA at $100m each, it comes to a massive $25bn, i dont think so russian will be unhappy if MRCA goes to Typhoon. 

Why would IAF want to import Gripen when the indigenously designed and produced LCA satisfies the IAF's requirements?

I am really curious to find out who wins the LCA engine contract..


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## LCA Tejas

lilaspr said:


> Typhoon is still the best choice. Eurofighter conveyed to the IAF that they would have AESA ready by 2014-15, likely be when the MRCA enters service.
> 
> I am sure the winner will blow the trumpet of a new strategic alliance with India and many future defence contracts running and yet to come. Anyway if India were to get 250 units of FGFA at $100m each, it comes to a massive $25bn, i dont think so russian will be unhappy if MRCA goes to Typhoon.
> 
> Why would IAF want to import Gripen when the indigenously designed and produced LCA satisfies the IAF's requirements?
> 
> *I am really curious to find out who wins the LCA engine contract.*.



LCA must have thrust vectoring stuff


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## Marxist

jha said:


> Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) for first time is considering suing BAe Systems for not providing Tools, Machinery and Spares for the construction of BAe Hawk 132 in India, In 2004 India signed a contract with British Aerospace Manufacture BAE Systems for 66 Hawk Mk. 115Y export variant Hawk 132, 24 of this jets where supposed to be delivered by BAE Systems and rest to be manufactured in India by HAL based in Bangalore.
> 
> Trouble came out in open when soon after induction, a Hawk was lost in air accident, BAe systems initially blamed Pilot error for the cause of the jet, IAF inquiry found that Faulty spares were the reasons for the jets crash, soon many incidents of unprofessional ism shown by BAe system started coming out in open, Instead of solving the problems, BAe Systems was finding loop holes in the original contract to put the blame back on India.
> 
> Even on the Induction day in Feb 2008 IAF and HAL were struggling to make HAWK jets airworthy in front of A.K. Anthony Indias Defence minister and other dignitaries present at that time ,HAL was not only provided wrong tools and Machinery but also faulty and Second hand spares ,IAF had to limit the Training of the pilots on the jets , Grounding of HTT-32 due to design flaws effected air forces Training of new pilots in a big manner last year , things moved to such a situation where IAF has issued new Request for Information on new jet Trainers instead of a follow on orders on Hawks . BAe Systems have been in past done the same with other exports customers in Middle East.
> 
> Euro fighter Typhoon jets currently in India to take part in 10 Billion $ race to provide India with 126 jets in the MMRCA competition may take the beating due to BAe systems, Euro-fighter Typhoon which is been designed with three prime partners, one of them been BAe Systems. Defence Expert Rajesh Sharma told idrw.org that HAWK experience with HAL and IAF have not gone down well with officials, order cutbacks by Development partners in Europe has forced Euro fighter GmbH a Parent company to look for major orders outside, Only Export order has come from Saudi Arabia but since most of the jets will be manufactured in Europe and HAL which will be manufacturing more than 100 of this jets in India. if Euro fighter is selected HAL may face same ordeal it faced with HAWKs, Mr. Sharma also pointed out that European firm has a higher price for the jet compared to others jets, also spares are worth Gold, even up gradation costs as much of that of half cost of the jet which he was referring to Indo-French 10000 cores upgrade package for the IAFs Mirage2000s fleet.
> 
> Mr. Sharma also pointed out that Singapore went on and purchased F-15 due to uncertainty over Typhoon tranche 2 delivery dates and Saudi Arabia was only provided with Typhoon tranche 2 which were built for Royal British Air force , since AESA radar is the main Requirement in MMRCA deal Euro fighter Typhoon AESA is still in development and still to be integrated and accepted in any developing partner country of the jets which may delay the whole induction of this jets in Air force which is in urgent need of new jets to replace old Migs which have been phased out in recent time .
> 
> BAe Hawk 132 may shoot down Eurofighter in MMRCA idrw.org



currently main earners of mmrca competition is media,defence blogs and public forums.always speculation and counter stories.may be the companies providing them in lump sum,for some time it was f-18,mig, Rafael,now ef .only god knows wat the outcome is.announcement of the winner will be a gr8 thing


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## sancho

lilaspr said:


> Typhoon is still the best choice. Eurofighter conveyed to the IAF that they would have AESA ready by 2014-15, likely be when the MRCA enters service.
> 
> I am sure the winner will blow the trumpet of a new strategic alliance with India and many future defence contracts running and yet to come. Anyway if India were to get 250 units of FGFA at $100m each, it comes to a massive $25bn, i dont think so russian will be unhappy if MRCA goes to Typhoon.
> 
> Why would IAF want to import Gripen when the indigenously designed and produced LCA satisfies the IAF's requirements?
> 
> I am really curious to find out who wins the LCA engine contract..


It's for sure a good fighter, but definitely not the best choice for IAF! Also IAF wants to induct the first squadron of MMRCA in 2014 (3 years after contract could be signed), but EF the latest news say, EF gets an operational AESA only by 2015,or even later. If that is correct, EF don't fullfil the requirements and will be out soon after the trials.


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## zeus

i didnt got paid by any rival American company , first of all i have not mentioned anything like that in the article nor i want American jet in IAF since we will have to heavy invest in new Infrastructure in IAF base which are not present since we never operated American jets ,Even i wanted EF to win until i had a little talk with Mr sharma who has some inside information ,i am not ruling out that EF will not win but India needs to be very careful when the contract is laid out so that Europeans dont find loop holes in them to get away with after sales , Like every Indian when purchasing a car or a bike out of his hard earned money will make sure he has some decent after sales ,same is there with Aircrafts we dont want Hangar queens which only fly at airshows and ceremonys ,Mr sharma also pointed out to me an interesting fact that BAe (earlier known has British Aircraft Corporation (BAC) ) also ditched us in Jaguar production they were supposed to provide us with detail blueprint of Jaguars for production in India but they only provided some basic blue prints it was the HAL engineers which with there shear knowledge were still able to keep Jaguar production in line , what Saudis will be doing is just assembling provided kit of Typhoon in Saudi ,but we will be doing deep TOT and local manufacturing for which machinery and tools have to be provided by the aircraft manufacture if we get similar service like we got with HAWKS we will have advance jets but mostly Hangar queens . with PAK-FA,Tejas,MKI,MCA in piple line MMRCA jets will not be front line jets for long other then AESA radars there is nothing much we are getting in terms of new technology , i personally support Gripen NG

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## jha

^^^ copy paste from IDRW....are you the admin..???


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## Dash

I am sure it will be a mistake if India goes for EFT at this point of time. No doubt its a good plane but due to many reasons as we have discussed, doesnt fit it into Air force's logic.

iam sure after EFT goes down, the copetition will be among Rafale and F18. Both are potent fighters.

I will vote for Rafale.
My 2 cents.


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## Dark Angel

*IAF Wants Extra Radar Mode On MMRCA AESAs*









For all the stated technological advancements present in the only two operational AESA radars competing in the MMRCA competition, the Indian Air Force has informed the two principle integrators (Boeing and Lockheed-Martin respectively) that radar modes available on the Northrop-Grumman AN/APG-80 radar (F-16IN) and the Raytheon AN/APG-79 (F/A-18E/F) do not include a specific one that the IAF refuses to do without: the "weather radar mode". Though both Boeing and Lockheed-Martin tried to convince the IAF that their respective radars (and integrated avionics) were built to provide data and flightpath solutions through, over or around bad weather, the IAF has insisted that it wants the AESAs offered with a traditional weather radar mode as a separate mode option. The default modes demanded by the IAF, excluding interleaved and data-fused modes, are air-to-air search, air-to-air track, ocean surface search, synthetic aperture radar (SAR) mapping, ground/sea target indicator and track and active beam mapping.

Lockheed-Martin has made it official now that the APG-80 radar will therefore undergo a certain amount of further development work to meet the IAF's requirement. This applies to Raytheon as well.


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## champion

Rafael and f18 both should be selected order should be in two planes


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## zeus

jha said:


> ^^^ copy paste from IDRW....are you the admin..???



Yes, i am Ajay


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## swasthika

Hi, superb article ..i am really proud.


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## marcos98

*Jan Widerstrom, Saab talks about ~30 programs in India, Gripen, Samtel JV*
8ak - Indian Defence News





01 Mar 2010 8ak: Jan Widerstr&#246;m, Saab India President talks to Manu Sood, Editor, 8ak about the ~25 programs they have responded to in India including missile defence, maritime patrol aircraft and the JV with Samtel Display System (SDS) for the RIGS Head Up Displays (HUD).

Eddy de la Motte, Director, Gripen for India says that the demonstrator aircraft is flying with the AESA and missile approach warner and that the Gripen will be in India in March 2010 for further tests. 

SDS has also been designated as an offset partner should Saab's Gripen win the MMRCA bid. The second MoU announced during Defexpo 2010 for the RIGS (brochure), where SDS will assist in the development of RIGS electronics and software and will also develop and manufacture parts of the RIGS HUD.

RIGS, built on an open systems architecture, consists of one or two display units, to serve one or two crew members in cockpit, and an electronics unit. RIGS provides an electro-optical presentation system (head up display), which is used for presentation of navigation, attitude, flight, reticle and video/EVS information to the aircraft or helicopter crew by day, night and in adverse weather conditions.

Current Enhanced Vision Sensor (EVS) technology connected to RIGS enables pilots to see through darkness, smog, smoke and various levels of snow, rain and fog. Safety is therefore enhanced via early detection of runway incursions and improved awareness of terrain during night and day operations and to prevent controlled flight into terrain (CFIT) and White-/Brown-out accidents. 

Mr. Puneet Kaura, Executive Director, SDS said that the system will initially be marketed to the Indian commercial and military airborne market but SDS will look at leveraging their relationship with HAL and also look at the export market in the near future.


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## ice_man

what is the timeframe that india has planned to finalize a contender? will IAF decide on one in 2010 or not???


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## Shaggy82

Hi all,

I have read lately..euro fighter is in the race to win the MRCA..

Eurofighter have offered india Partnership in the program and full transfer of technology...

not to forget it has proven to be a competent fighter jet.

They will trnsfer the manufacturing base to india.

this will allow india to produce world class fighter jet at home.

shaggy

Reactions: Like Like:
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## syntax_error

Shaggy82 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I have read lately..euro fighter is in the race to win the MRCA..
> 
> Eurofighter have offered india Partnership in the program and full transfer of technology...
> 
> not to forget it has proven to be a competent fighter jet.
> 
> They will trnsfer the manufacturing base to india.
> 
> this will allow india to produce world class fighter jet at home.
> 
> shaggy



Its not that simple I promise u that brother .....


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## Shaggy82

The Indian Air Force (IAF) on Monday said the trials for the 126 Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) acquisition is on course and the exercise could be wrapped by April this year.

Of the six fighter aircraft competing in the $ 10.2-billion deal, Chief of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal P.V. Naik said, three  French Rafale and American F16 and F18  have completed all three phases of the trials while the rest are going through it.

By the end of April trials will be over and we will take a couple of months to finalise [IAF assessment on the fighter plans], Air Chief said here at a press conference. The trials began last autumn with Boeing flying in the F18/A to Bangalore.

European consortiums Eurofighter Typhoon, Swedens Grippen and Russian MiG35 have completed two phases. The IAF has asked all the bidders to hold trials across different weather conditions at Bangalore, Leh and Jaisalmer and then for field orientation trials at the manufacturers location where efficacy of weapons systems will be tested.

Having completed its first phase, two Typhoon aircraft flew into Bangalore last week for the trials starting on Monday. The company representative Matthias Schmidlin told The Hindu during Defexpo-2010 that the last phase is expected to take place during April in Germany, where the IAF will test aircrafts weapon system and advanced sensors.

SAAB from Sweden has fielded Grippen which will bring its aircraft to India next month for second phase of trials. It completed the third phase earlier. Russian MiG35 will have to undergo the third phase.

Most of the manufacturers who were here during the Defexpo were happy at the pace at which the trials were progressing. We are impressed by the speed at which it [trials] is progressing and it is a clear sign for early decision Mr. Schmidlin said.

As per the terms of the contract, the first 18 aircraft will be flown-in by the manufacturer while the rest will be made in India under licensed production. It also entails that the manufacturer will plough back 50 per cent of the total value of the contract in India.

shaggy


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## Chaluboy

The Indian ambassador to Italy recently mentioned that EF is the front runner ... Is that just diplomatic fluff ?


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## sancho

Chaluboy said:


> The Indian ambassador to Italy recently mentioned that EF is the front runner ... Is that just diplomatic fluff ?


Partly, because he said it was the frontrunner before the trials started, so only by evaluating all the infos that the vendors provided. *IF* the EF could come fully developed and in time, as the EF consortium claims, it is for sure one of the most advanced 4++ fighters, but all reports about its development and integration makes that doubtful!


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## suryanaidu

Dassault Rafale is best or typoon ?


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## KEETARP

*India considers tandem MMRCA radar competition*
The Indian Air Force (IAF) may run a separate radar competition in tandem with its Medium-Multirole Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) programme, Russian industry sources have...
Only for subscibers
Jane's Defence Weekly - Your first line of defence

If anyone has a account plz post the full news 
THNX
What could be it


----------



## sancho

desiman said:


> Sancho i agree with some of your points and disagree with some. Mainly the TOT issue. YES companies do not decide the major TOT details but keep in mind the exception we got from the NSG. The amount of money in India for the next 10 years will be a big factor for the US to take into account before they decide anything. Again the ans is long and essay style lol but this is not the thread for that. *In terms of turning and maneuverability of the F-18, the F-18 is comparable to everything except the MIG-35 and to an extent the Rafale.* I am a bit unsure about the Rafale as its exports have been basically nil which is never a good sign. But again three way to many questions in your post and this is not the thread for that. Please post the same post in the MRCA deal thread and i will answer it there.


I highly disagree and already gave some good points, which can't be denied. Curious to know why you still think the F18SH can keep up in this field against the Euro-canards, or the Mig.


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## KEETARP

Which are the things going to hamper full TOT with SH and Viper.
One of them is Radar- Apg 79 or Apg 80 both will not come with TOT.
What else????????


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## Shaggy82

I dont think americans and russians will be willing for TOT...

Only Rafale or Typhoon are offering...

that to the offer from Typhoon seems more attractive as they are offering partnership in the program.


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## KEETARP

Shaggy82 said:


> *I dont think americans and russians will be willing for TOT...*
> 
> Only Rafale or Typhoon are offering...
> 
> that to the offer from Typhoon seems more attractive as they are offering partnership in the program.



Seems u are underestimating the goodwill of Russia, it has shown over 40 years towards India.
Its not just a matter of 10-20 billions , but cooperation extends to hundreds of billions of dollars and still more in pipe line.


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## DMLA

LT.PRATEEK said:


> Which are the things going to hamper full TOT with SH and Viper.
> One of them is Radar- Apg 79 or Apg 80 both will not come with TOT.
> What else????????



The error we all make when thinking of MMRCA is we look at the birds flying and think of the proposal submitted to be on the same lines. The truth is that what will be provided (through MMRCA) depends on what was asked for in the RFP! Thus there is no stopping the americans from providing a "trimmed down" AESA if it meets all the RFP requirements. They have the added advantage of mature systems which provides them the necessary room for "downgrading" (i.e. even after downgrading, they could come out as better than the european or russian radars!)

PS: It is important to note that some companies might provide so called "full ToT" but that has no use for IAF!!! It might help DRDO but why should IAF care about DRDO? Shouldn't they go for the best platform of the lot?!

Frankly, I don't think IAF requires technology for AESA. DRDO is already working on a domestic fighter AESA system (with modules being imported ofcourse as we do not have a fab for the same - RFI has been sent). What IAF requires is the source codes for future integration of weapons independent of the americans. That's where the problem (and maybe the solution) lies! So I am afraid, "full" ToT may not be interpreted here in the right context!


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## Shaggy82

LT.PRATEEK said:


> Seems u are underestimating the goodwill of Russia, it has shown over 40 years towards India.
> Its not just a matter of 10-20 billions , but cooperation extends to hundreds of billions of dollars and still more in pipe line.



i dont reallt think it is just a cooperation.....

We have been partner....

Russians are providing engines to chineese companies who are fitting rissuan engines into JF17.

This shows they consider India have been just a buyer to their technology.

this is the reason why india have opened doors for other technology providers.

shaggy


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## Shaggy82

India is the only country which have access to all major technologies in the world including Americans Russians French and Israil.

this makes Indian Military unique and adaptable...


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## gen x

well Indian can chose 

Rafael and f18 
typhoon and f18 

order should be in two companies not to a single one


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## Indiarox

Why is every one underestimating the Mig-35??????????


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## KEETARP

DMLA said:


> The error we all make when thinking of MMRCA is we look at the birds flying and think of the proposal submitted to be on the same lines. The truth is that what will be provided (through MMRCA) depends on what was asked for in the RFP! Thus there is no stopping the americans from providing a "trimmed down" AESA if it meets all the RFP requirements. They have the added advantage of mature systems which provides them the necessary room for "downgrading" (i.e. even after downgrading, they could come out as better than the european or russian radars!)
> 
> PS: It is important to note that some companies might provide so called "full ToT" but that has no use for IAF!!! It might help DRDO but why should IAF care about DRDO? Shouldn't they go for the best platform of the lot?!
> 
> Frankly, I don't think IAF requires technology for AESA. DRDO is already working on a domestic fighter AESA system (with modules being imported ofcourse as we do not have a fab for the same - RFI has been sent). What IAF requires is the source codes for future integration of weapons independent of the americans. That's where the problem (and maybe the solution) lies! So I am afraid, "full" ToT may not be interpreted here in the right context!



We doo need the advantage of TOT
Look what all sort of problems we faced when Mig29 arrived firstly.
Our engines got down after every 2-3 sortie bcoz FOD foreign object damage and guess what they had to be sent back to russia .
Bcoz we didnt have related tot to take up engine repair or manufacturing in india itself.
Similar thing we faced in earlier su30k also , 

do you remember same thing said by US col after Red flag interview , video which created controversy and was removed later on.
He said same thing abt engine problems and being sent to russia, bcoz till then su30 were not 100&#37; built in india. FOD ws the factor envolved

Suppose US dosent provide us tot of Engines - what will happen then ;whole fleet will be under danger once any problem erupts and we would have to sent parts to either Australia/US for repair. It dosent matter what was said in req/or Boeing is meeting all req as per Rfp
IAF dosent want that situation thats why req in RFP on first priority will be full TOT.

Regarding Radar - Just bcoz Aesa dont have Moving Antenae dosent mean they wont get damaged and what then???????.
For just changing LRU-replacable units which is a matter of hours sending to US will consume weeks.

And i dont buy the fact that Europens wont be able to build Radar upto US level,
I personally oppose Europe bcoz they wont get in time and price is a question otherwise if given money and time till 2013-2014 they would definately deliver Aesa Equivalent to US level.
I mean a 1200 micro array AESA not a 600 mmic what Russia / Us is offering.


----------



## DMLA

LT.PRATEEK said:


> We doo need the advantage of TOT
> Look what all sort of problems we faced when Mig29 arrived firstly.
> Our engines got down after every 2-3 sortie bcoz FOD foreign object damage and guess what they had to be sent back to russia .
> Bcoz we didnt have related tot to take up engine repair or manufacturing in india itself.
> Similar thing we faced in earlier su30k also ,
> 
> do you remember same thing said by US col after Red flag interview , video which created controversy and was removed later on.
> He said same thing abt engine problems and being sent to russia, bcoz till then su30 were not 100% built in india. FOD ws the factor envolved



I never said we "don't need ToT"!!! I said the level of ToT is defined by the RFP. The RFP typically involves local engine mfg./ maintainance (as was the case with Su-30). Afterall, IAF has also learned a lot from its past mistakes or rather experience. The issue has been the traditionally sad state of affairs when it comes to Russian engines. That has nothing to do with the "requirement of ToT".

My assertion is that all that matters is for the vendors to fulfill the "requirements". If downgraded equipment does that, there is nothing wrong with it! Ofcourse, it is for the IAF to decide what they should go for. But more often than not, Americans come up with very good technologies at their disposal and the end result is well known. Case to point include P-8I (which is different from the P-8A) but still trumped russian and European systems!


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## sancho

LT.PRATEEK said:


> Which are the things going to hamper full TOT with SH and Viper.
> One of them is Radar- Apg 79 or Apg 80 both will not come with TOT.
> What else????????


Avionics, not even sure about engine ToT, cause only Eurojet stated yet they would provide ToT if we take EJ 200 for LCA.


DMLA said:


> PS: It is important to note that some companies might provide so called "full ToT" but that has no use for IAF!!! It might help DRDO but why should IAF care about DRDO? Shouldn't they go for the best platform of the lot?!


Because any useful ToT will improve our indigenous developments for future, which is the most important point if we want to be selfreliant, but I agree that not any full ToT offer is useful.
Mig 35 for example offers only ToT of the upg RD 33 that HAL already produces and knows and compared to western engines, the Russians aren't on par anyway. The only useful ToT from them imo, would be AESA radar and from OLS, but that alone doesn't equalise all its disadvantages.



DMLA said:


> Frankly, I don't think IAF requires technology for AESA. DRDO is already working on a domestic fighter AESA system (with modules being imported ofcourse as we do not have a fab for the same - RFI has been sent). What IAF requires is the source codes for future integration of weapons independent of the americans. That's where the problem (and maybe the solution) lies! So I am afraid, "full" ToT may not be interpreted here in the right context!


We do develop our own AESA, but IAF already stated that it is not good enough, even for LCA! 
That is why they now searching for a foreign partner for a JV. Even the MMR wasn't developed alone, so I guess that's makes clear that we are still far away from catching up China, Russia or western nations and why we need any ToT, JV, or co-development we can get to improve ourself.


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## DMLA

sancho said:


> Avionics, not even sure about engine ToT, cause only Eurojet stated yet they would provide ToT if we take EJ 200 for LCA.
> 
> Because any useful ToT will improve our indigenous developments for future, which is the most important point if we want to be selfreliant, but I agree that not any full ToT offer is useful.
> Mig 35 for example offers only ToT of the upg RD 33 that HAL already produces and knows and compared to western engines, the Russians aren't on par anyway. The only useful ToT from them imo, would be AESA radar and from OLS, but that alone doesn't equalise all its disadvantages.
> 
> 
> We do develop our own AESA, *but IAF already stated that it is not good enough*, even for LCA!
> That is why they now *searching for a foreign partner for a JV*. Even the MMR wasn't developed alone, so I guess that's makes clear that we are still far away from catching up China, Russia or western nations and why we need any ToT, JV, or co-development we can get to improve ourself.



Yes and all that has nothing to do with IAF per say. IAF only cares for a system which fits/ exceeds its needs. It does not matter if DRDO fails to develope a good AESA for LCA. IAF would simply ask DRDO to integrate a scalable AESA (Northrop Grummen is already putting up SABR as an option) 
That's my point. IAF will ask for system integration where it gets the best technology available (example the french & israeli systems available when mki was being finalized!)


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## sancho

LT.PRATEEK said:


> Regarding Radar - J*ust bcoz Aesa dont have Moving Antenae* dosent mean they wont get damaged and what then???????.


Actually some has! The Selsex swashplate AESA has a movable plate and that's why it gets a wider field of detection and that is pretty contrary to the inital reason of going to AESA techs, because one of the advantages of AESA was less maintenance, because of less moving parts!
I guess that's exectly why the EF members still can't decide for a AESA radar type, UK wants swashplate, Germany a fixed version.




LT.PRATEEK said:


> And i dont buy the fact that Europens wont be able to build Radar upto US level,
> I personally oppose Europe bcoz they wont get in time and price is a question otherwise if given money and time till 2013-2014 they would definately deliver Aesa Equivalent to US level.
> I mean a 1200 micro array AESA not a 600 mmic what Russia / Us is offering.



RBE 2 AESA is said to have 1000 TR modules, the EF AESA should get even more, not sure how many the Selsex radar in Gripen NG will have, but it should get less than the EF, because of less nose diameter. Btw, Russia had offeren an improved version of Zhuk AE for Mig 35, with higher diameter, so also more T/R modules.


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## sancho

DMLA said:


> Yes and all that has nothing to do with IAF per say. IAF only cares for a system which fits/ exceeds its needs. It does not matter if DRDO fails to develope a good AESA for LCA. IAF would simply ask DRDO to integrate a scalable AESA (Northrop Grummen is already putting up SABR as an option)
> That's my point. IAF will ask for system integration where it gets the best technology available (example the french & israeli systems available when mki was being finalized!)


I disagree! Of course it matters IAF too, because they have to use the techs in war times and if they are inferior it will be a matter for our security. Also the LCA development and the fact that we had to get help from other nations on many parts, was the reason for the delays, which caused the death of several pilots, because they still must use old fighters. So with more knowledge (ToT) and experience the next development won't be so delayed, not to mention the extra costs we had to get foreign help and techs.


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## DMLA

sancho said:


> I disagree! Of course it matters IAF too, because they have to use the techs in war times and if they are inferior it will be a matter for our security. Also the LCA development and the fact that we had to get help from other nations on many parts, was the reason for the delays, which caused the death of several pilots, because they still must use old fighters. So with more knowledge (ToT) and experience the next development won't be so delayed, not to mention the extra costs we had to get foreign help and techs.



In my earlier posts, this is what I say. It will not matter to IAF provided "they get the technology they want". If IAF is a professional organization (which it is), they will go for the best possible systems (as per requirements). That's all there is to it! Thus my point is if IAF makes sure that the decisions made (through RFP/ etc) are done keeping in mind the possible threats, the force should do fine (DPSU's or no DPSU's).

Most western companies have excellent after sales services. Offsets also act as a way to make sure after sales services become smoother. Thus I believe that atleast with MMRCA, offset will not cause any issues!


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## KEETARP

sancho said:


> Actually some has! The Selsex swashplate AESA has a movable plate and that's why it gets a wider field of detection and that is pretty contrary to the inital reason of going to AESA techs, because one of the advantages of AESA was less maintenance, because of less moving parts!
> I guess that's exectly why the EF members still can't decide for a AESA radar type, UK wants swashplate, Germany a fixed version.



In my opinion-
Moving part will have a larger field of vision , 
But resolution wise and tracking also it will be less accurate bcoz when it directs a beam in one particular plane it will track all targets in that quadrant, but as soon as antennae rotates its beam will allign in a different field loosing the track of that object.
I mean simultaneously engaging and tracking capability will be less accurate.
This is my thinking- may be wrong / illogical 



> RBE 2 AESA is said to have 1000 TR modules, the EF AESA should get even more, not sure how many the Selsex radar in Gripen NG will have, but it should get less than the EF, because of less nose diameter. Btw, Russia had offeren an improved version of Zhuk AE for Mig 35, with higher diameter, so also more T/R modules.



Any source Sancho 
As per my information rafale was to get <1000 TR module array 
Eu was planning for a larger Aesa


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## Dash

Well with a little research I found this link. Its about Gripen's radar.

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/defense/index.jsp?plckController=Blog&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&newspaperUserId=27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7&plckPostId=Blog%3a27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7Post%3a9f6f828e-4f32-42d9-be7e-54daa51b1634&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest

I am not sure of the advantages of a fixed one over a swashplate, however I can see some advantage of a swashplate than a fixed one.

The main reason is you are able to track a target while doing a 90 degree manuever.

what is written over there is"
With a 200 degree field of regard in azimuth and elevation, the swashplate AESA is strong in off-boresight performance, an area where the fixed AESA is weak - because the latter loses performance off-boresight and can't scan more than 120 degrees at all. And it does it all with one mechanical bearing, which is much less highly loaded than the gimbals of a mechanically scanned radar.

So I can say there is some advantage. Moreover in AESA you can have modules or antennas directed to seperate targets while being at the same azimuth. and when the swashplate rotates then its not necessary that you loose the target in that quadrant , coz you might be operating in same azimuth.

lets say a 200 degree azimuth then, if yore target is within 200 degree of your quadrant then you dont loose it, buy te time the antenna has moved you already have the target acquisition.

Not sure if this helps you but it might bring some light...


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## Dash

Another link to teh same.

http://www.gripen.com/NR/rdonlyres/...587B1C440D0/0/090409_Gripen_NG_AESA_Radar.pdf


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## Dash

DMLA said:


> In my earlier posts, this is what I say. It will not matter to IAF provided "they get the technology they want". If IAF is a professional organization (which it is), they will go for the best possible systems (as per requirements). That's all there is to it! Thus my point is if IAF makes sure that the decisions made (through RFP/ etc) are done keeping in mind the possible threats, the force should do fine (DPSU's or no DPSU's).
> 
> Most western companies have excellent after sales services. Offsets also act as a way to make sure after sales services become smoother. Thus I believe that atleast with MMRCA, offset will not cause any issues!


I agree....I think that even if IAF has to think what's best in its interest, GOI will think whats best in the nations interest. here there are 2 interests.

TOT is what is the need of hour, coz thats where you can actually hold the DRDO responsible which is more about delays than results.

If you think practically then the LCA project is actually going no where, even as of now,we are trying to induct the underpowered LCAs.

Me thinks if the GOI or the IAF were so confident on LCA then, they shouldnt have even look for so many foreign fighters. Look at NAVY. they have infused money but they also have their own RFI and RFP to follow.

I guess the whole point is get the LCA engine done, gain the knowledge and get done with the whole 20 year long story.

without TOT this is impossible. looking from this POV TOT holds more value than any liberty of IAF in choosing what they want.


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## KEETARP

Dash said:


> Well with a little research I found this link. Its about Gripen's radar.
> 
> http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/defense/index.jsp?plckController=Blog&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&newspaperUserId=27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7&plckPostId=Blog&#37;3a27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7Post%3a9f6f828e-4f32-42d9-be7e-54daa51b1634&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest
> 
> I am not sure of the advantages of a fixed one over a swashplate, however I can see some advantage of a swashplate than a fixed one.
> 
> The main reason is you are able to track a target while doing a 90 degree manuever.
> 
> what is written over there is"
> With a 200 degree field of regard in azimuth and elevation, the swashplate AESA is strong in off-boresight performance, an area where the fixed AESA is weak - because the latter loses performance off-boresight and can't scan more than 120 degrees at all. And it does it all with one mechanical bearing, which is much less highly loaded than the gimbals of a mechanically scanned radar.
> 
> So I can say there is some advantage. Moreover in AESA you can have modules or antennas directed to seperate targets while being at the same azimuth. and when the swashplate rotates then its not necessary that you loose the target in that quadrant , coz you might be operating in same azimuth.
> 
> lets say a 200 degree azimuth then, if yore target is within 200 degree of your quadrant then you dont loose it, buy te time the antenna has moved you already have the target acquisition.
> 
> Not sure if this helps you but it might bring some light...



RT, thx for article 
But still leaves some doubt if you have such a wide FOS-field of scanning , how will a processing prioritize its target .
I mean instead of 200 if you have 800 targets how will it get priority list programmed, 
This will again require huge amount of processing + Top notch Software to do it ,again requiring huge power & cooling system.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


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## sancho

DMLA said:


> In my earlier posts, this is what I say. It will not matter to IAF provided "they get the technology they want". If IAF is a professional organization (which it is), they will go for the best possible systems (as per requirements). That's all there is to it! Thus my point is if IAF makes sure that the decisions made (through RFP/ etc) are done keeping in mind the possible threats, the force should do fine (DPSU's or no DPSU's).
> 
> Most western companies have excellent after sales services. Offsets also act as a way to make sure after sales services become smoother. Thus I believe that atleast with MMRCA, offset will not cause any issues!


So you want India to remain a simple buyer of arms and techs, with the reliance on others, that comes along with this? Also how should we ever be an equal partner in co-developments like Pak Fa / FGFA, or MRTA, if our defense industry is a decade behind?

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## sancho

LT.PRATEEK said:


> YouTube- Northrop Grumman SABR active-array radar for F-16



Very interesting!



LT.PRATEEK said:


> Any source Sancho
> As per my information rafale was to get <1000 TR module array
> Eu was planning for a larger Aesa



Here:



> *Thaless RBE2 AESA radar successfully completes new series of tests*
> 
> 22 April 2009
> 
> Thales announced today that its RBE2 active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar has successfully completed a new series of tests on the Rafale at the Cazaux flight test centre in Southwest France from February to March. These tests, carried out jointly by Thales and the French defence procurement agency (DGA), provided functional validation of the radars operating modes.
> 
> 
> This milestone marks the latest step towards qualifying the RBE2 AESA radars this year in readiness for delivery of the first two units to Dassault Aviation during the first quarter of 2010. The radars will be installed on the aircraft in 2011 for delivery to the French Air Force early in 2012.
> The successful tests are the latest in a long line of key milestones. Thales began developing an AESA radar demonstrator in the 1990s and conducted exploratory tests at the flight test centre in 2002 and 2003 to refine the concept. In 2004, the French defence procurement agency DGA backed the project with a contract to develop a prototype of an operational active-module radar.
> 
> At the end of 2006, Thales completed its first active phased array, *comprising some 1,000 gallium-arsenide T/R modules* manufactured by European firm United Monolithic Semiconductors (UMS).
> 
> The active phased array, which replaces the passive array in the RBE2 currently operating on the Rafale, offers many advantages:
> 
> - range extended by over 50% for future compatibility with new weapon systems like Meteor
> - higher module reliability for reduced cost of ownership (no array overhaul required for 10 years)
> - waveform agility for high-resolution synthetic aperture (SAR) imagery in air-to-ground mode and better resistance to jamming.
> 
> Pierre-Yves Chaltiel, Senior Vice President in charge of Thales's Aerospace Solutions for Governments Sector, commented on the achievement of this new milestone: "The success of this latest series of tests on the RBE2 AESA radar consolidates Thales's European leadership position. Moreover, it will help to affirm the Rafale's technological superiority as the omnirole aircraft performs flight demonstrations for potential export customers, confirming its excellent performance as it has recently in Switzerland and the United Arab Emirates."



Thales?s RBE2 AESA radar successfully completes new series of tests


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## sancho

Dash said:


> Well with a little research I found this link. Its about Gripen's radar.
> 
> http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/defense/index.jsp?plckController=Blog&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&newspaperUserId=27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7&plckPostId=Blog%3a27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7Post%3a9f6f828e-4f32-42d9-be7e-54daa51b1634&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest
> 
> I am not sure of the advantages of a fixed one over a swashplate, however I can see some advantage of a swashplate than a fixed one.
> 
> The main reason is you are able to track a target while doing a 90 degree manuever.
> 
> what is written over there is"
> With a 200 degree field of regard in azimuth and elevation, the swashplate AESA is strong in off-boresight performance, an area where the fixed AESA is weak - because the latter loses performance off-boresight and can't scan more than 120 degrees at all. And it does it all with one mechanical bearing, which is much less highly loaded than the gimbals of a mechanically scanned radar.
> 
> So I can say there is some advantage. Moreover in AESA you can have modules or antennas directed to seperate targets while being at the same azimuth. and when the swashplate rotates then its not necessary that you loose the target in that quadrant , coz you might be operating in same azimuth.
> 
> lets say a 200 degree azimuth then, if yore target is within 200 degree of your quadrant then you dont loose it, buy te time the antenna has moved you already have the target acquisition.
> 
> Not sure if this helps you but it might bring some light...



Can you check the link please, can't open it!

Regarding this 90° manuever, maybe I misunderstood it, but do you really need the radar for such shoots, because it seems, a latest missile, mabye combined with HMS can do the same:


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## KEETARP

sancho said:


> So you want India to remain a simple buyer of arms and techs, with the reliance on others, that comes along with this? Also how should we ever be an equal partner in co-developments like Pak Fa / FGFA, or MRTA, if our defense industry is a decade behind?



I agree to that 
Above all - Suppose there is a defect in Engine/radar/FCS then what if our Engineers don't have know how , we will be required to send these planes every now and then to respective country for even minute repairing.

*My opinion are somehow acc to this link*

Lack of Information Hampers Upgrades: DRDO Chief - Aero India - 2009

very much what i wanted to say. 

Lack of Information Hampers Upgrades: DRDO Chief
Russia transfers production technology, not design knowledge, Natarajan says
By vivek raghuvanshi 
Published: 13 Feb 03:53 EST (07:53 GMT)

*BANGALORE - Indian scientists and engineers face problems with the upgrade and maintenance of Russian weaponry and equipment in service with the defense forces because the designs and other details are not transferred at the time of sale of these weaponry*. 

Addressing a news conference here, chief of India's Defence Research and Development Organisation [DRDO], M. Natarajan said the main problems with Russian platforms is that the Russians only transfer production technology, not design knowledge.

"Russia to date has only given us license production," Natarajan said.

To overcome these difficulties DRDO needs to build indigenous design capabilities in order to meet the future aerospace requirements of the country. As a result the DRDO is forging collaboration in several sectors including propulsion, sensors and other materials, he added. 

The bulk of the armament in Indian defense force service is of Russian origin. Most of it, bought since the early 1970s, needs replacement or upgrading.

And only God knows - What will happen if we join list with 
Iran-regarding F14
Iraq-All civilian jets were grounded
Pakistan - F16
Venezuela - F16( not sure abt this)


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## DMLA

sancho said:


> So you want India to remain a simple buyer of arms and techs, with the reliance on others, that comes along with this? Also how should we ever be an equal partner in co-developments like Pak Fa / FGFA, or MRTA, if our defense industry is a decade behind?



When did I say that ? I said we should not hold the defence of the country hostage to DPSU's and their performance! All the talk of joint projects et al..... they never provide us with so called "technology". These projects invovlve the transfer of complete systems from the partner and the local agencies like DRDO do integration !
There are many examples with some of the latest being proposed SRSAM with french and barak with israel !!

There is no shortcut to this..... YES we are decades behind and we will take decades to catch up! My only contention is that the armed forces are tasked with a very important job. I don't feel it is right for them to go for compromises when they are putting their lives on the line everyday! 

Added later: It is the job of DPSU's to develop necessary systems. Why should IAF be obliged to change its stance and go for inferior systems just so DRDO could get the technology? I agree that compromises can be made, but I hope IAF's choices (wrt MMRCA) are looked at favourably!!

All the talk about maintainance, aftersales support etc have been an issue with russians (maybe because they sold almost everything exclusively!)
If you look at my earlier post, I said that ToT should clarify what is required! If it says engine mfg in india, then there is no reason for all companies qualifying RFP to backtrack!!! 

My assertion has been in response to the talk of "critical technology" coming our way! For example, how does it matter if USA sells us the inner workings of their ECCM/ECM systems on board the fighters - atleast to IAF. All they would care about is to be able to maintain threat libraries!!!


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## DMLA

LT.PRATEEK said:


> I agree to that
> Above all - Suppose there is a defect in Engine/radar/FCS then what if our Engineers don't have know how , we will be required to send these planes every now and then to respective country for even minute repairing.
> 
> *My opinion are somehow acc to this link*
> 
> Lack of Information Hampers Upgrades: DRDO Chief - Aero India - 2009
> 
> very much what i wanted to say.
> 
> Lack of Information Hampers Upgrades: DRDO Chief
> Russia transfers production technology, not design knowledge, Natarajan says
> By vivek raghuvanshi
> Published: 13 Feb 03:53 EST (07:53 GMT)
> 
> *BANGALORE - Indian scientists and engineers face problems with the upgrade and maintenance of Russian weaponry and equipment in service with the defense forces because the designs and other details are not transferred at the time of sale of these weaponry*.
> 
> Addressing a news conference here, chief of India's Defence Research and Development Organisation [DRDO], M. Natarajan said the main problems with Russian platforms is that the Russians only transfer production technology, not design knowledge.
> 
> "Russia to date has only given us license production," Natarajan said.
> 
> To overcome these difficulties DRDO needs to build indigenous design capabilities in order to meet the future aerospace requirements of the country. As a result the DRDO is forging collaboration in several sectors including propulsion, sensors and other materials, he added.
> 
> The bulk of the armament in Indian defense force service is of Russian origin. Most of it, bought since the early 1970s, needs replacement or upgrading.



I am happy indians are incresingly looking at the Americans and Israelis!


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## DMLA

Found this interesting article!



> The Indian Air Force Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) Competition, commonly known as the MRCA Tender, is an ongoing competition to supply the Indian Air Force with 126 Multi-Role Combat Aircraft.
> 
> The air force requirement for the MMRCA is based on a maximum all-up weight of 14,000-30,000 kg. (31,000-66,000 lb.). India plans to procure 18 aircraft in flyaway condition and produce 106 locally under license through technology transfer. Delivery starts within 36 months of contract signing and will be completed 48 months later.
> 
> Six aircraft were bid for this multi-billion dollar contract, which has been touted as India&#8217;s single largest defence deal ever. These represent some of the latest combat aircraft being developed or fielded today.
> 
> &#9632;Dassault Rafale
> &#9632;Eurofighter Typhoon
> &#9632;Lockheed Martin F-16IN Super Viper
> &#9632;Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet
> &#9632;Saab Gripen NG
> &#9632;Mikoyan MiG-35
> Dassault Rafale:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Rafale is a twin-engined, delta-wing, multirole fighter designed and built by France&#8217;s Dassault Aviation. RAFALE supportability and mission readiness capitalise on the undisputed track record of the current generation of French fighters such as the combat-proven Mirage 2000.
> 
> Powered by two Snecma M88 turbofans (prototype examples used two General Electric F404-400s), the Rafale has a top speed of over Mach 1.8 (1,900km/h) and a combat radius of 1,000nm (1,850km).
> 
> Eurofighter Typhoon:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The four nation Eurofighter Typhoon is a foreplane delta wing beyond-visual-range and close air fighter aircraft with surface attack capability. Eurofighter has high agility at supresonic speed and &#8217;supercruise&#8217; capability, that is it can fly at sustained speeds of over Mach 1 without the use of afterburner.
> 
> The company carrying out the development of the aircraft is Eurofighter Jagdflugzeug GmbH based in Munich and wholly owned by Alenia of Italy, British Aerospace of the UK, CASA of Spain and DASA of Germany. The company responsible for the development of the EJ200 engine is Eurojet GmbH, in Munich which is owned by Rolls Royce, Motoren und Turbinen Union, Fiat Aviazione and ITP.
> 
> The EJ200 engine has been developed by Eurojet GmbH, in Munich which is owned by Rolls-Royce, MTU Aero Engines, Fiat Aviazione and ITP.
> 
> Lockheed Martin F-16IN Super Viper
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The F-16IN Super Viper is a unique new fighter sharing a heritage with the world&#8217;s only fifth generation fighters &#8211; the F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter and the F-22 Raptor. Evolutionary integration of fifth generation technologies makes the F-16IN the most advanced fourth generation fighter in the world today.
> 
> Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Super Hornet is about 25&#37; larger than its predecessor, the F/A-18C/D but contains 42% fewer structural parts. The single seat F/A-18/E and the two seat F/A-18/F flies greater ranges, with heavier payloads, uses a more powerful engine and provides greater survivability.
> 
> Saab Gripen NG
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The JAS 39 Gripen is a fourth-generation fighter manufactured by Swedish company Saab. Designed as a swing-role type capable of performing multiple missions.
> 
> Powered by a single Volvo Aero RM12 afterburning turbofan based on the General Electric F404, the Gripen is capable of speeds of up to Mach 2 and has a maximum range of 2,800km (1,510nm).
> 
> Weapon options include a 27mm Mauser internal cannon, Raytheon AIM-9 Sidewinder and AIM-120 AMRAAM air-to-air missiles and Raytheon Paveway II laser-guided bombs. The aircraft is also being used to support the development of MBDA&#8217;s Meteor beyond visual-range air-to-air missile.
> 
> Mikoyan MiG-35 (Fulcrum-F)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Mikoyan MiG-35 is a further development of the MiG-29M/M2 and MiG-29K/KUB technology. It is classified as a 4++ generation jet fighter by its manufacturer. The MiG-35 is now classed as a medium-weight aircraft because its maximum take-off weight has increased by 30 percent which exceeds its previous criteria of classification.
> 
> With an increase to its MTOW as much as 30 percent, the MiG-35 is now considered in the medum weight class. The aircraft is codenamed &#8220;Fulcrum-F&#8221; by NATO and is considered a full-fledged multi-role platform utilizing the latest in targeting and tracking systems comparable to Western aircraft types.
> 
> Advanced computerized avionics in control of fly by wire flight surfaces combined with thrust vectoring give the aircraft a speed range from 0 mph forward speed to supersonic, all the while maintaining the maneuverability to simultaneously evade enemy missiles while engaging numerous targets. The MiG-35 can deliver up to 12,000 lbs. of ordnance against air, ground and maritime targets with pinpoint accuracy.
> 
> Considerations: *Strategic considerations may influence government&#8217;s final decision.*
> MiG-35
> 
> _Zhuk AE AESA radar the most powerful amidst the MMRCA contenders._
> Russia, on top of a full technology transfer, is offering India help in building its own advanced radar.
> 100 per cent technology transfer for the MiG-35, including the radar and all its systems.
> Airframe barely improved from MiG-29
> Life cycle cost of Russian fighters is traditionally high
> 
> Super Hornet
> 
> Battle-tested, frontline fighter with the US Navy
> can function as refuelling tanker with external fuel tanks
> US restrictions on modifications and end usage
> Earlier generation design, dating back to 1980s
> Heavy, 30-ton aircraft, expensive
> 
> Super Viper
> 
> Tested modern fighter, has logged over 100,000 combat missions globally
> Single-engine, 19-tonne fighter, price competitive
> Advanced Northrop Grumman APG-80 AESA radar
> Four F-16 production lines functioning world-wide
> Earlier vintage F-16s in service with Pakistan Air Force
> 
> Typhoon
> 
> Contemporary fighter, still evolving
> High performance, high-end technology, including supercruise
> Offering India development partnership
> No end user restrictions, easy transfer of technology
> EADS already helping to develop India&#8217;s LCA
> No combat experience
> Heavy, 25-ton aircraft, expensive
> AESA radar still under development
> 
> Gripen
> 
> Can land, refuel, rearm and take off in 10 minutes
> Light, single-engine, highly cost-effective
> Selex Raven AESA radar with advanced swashplate technology
> Willing to hand over source codes for high-tech equipment
> SAAB offering an advanced version of a state-of-the-art a second generation AESA (advanced extended search array radar), The radar will come with its software source code.
> Gripen is way to dependent on other countries (engine, radar, or the main weapons), what would be a problem if India face sanctions again and it could not share any techs with LCA without permission of them.
> Has US components, including engines and avionics
> India has never operated a Swedish fighter
> 
> Rafale
> 
> France deploys on land and aircraft carriers
> IAF&#8217;s Mirage-2000 fleet creates comfort level with Dassault
> Transfer of technology smooth; no end user restrictions
> Only non-US fighter with deployed AESA radar
> Limited combat experience
> 25-tonne, twin-engine aircraft, expensive



link: http://ceoworld.biz/ceo/2010/03/04/indian-mrca-competition-who-will-win

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## KEETARP

Actually i read that article earlier 
This is from CEO business Magazine
Any way thnx

And DMLA/Sancho do you guys follow janes or do you have a Subscription 
Actually there is an latest article on MRCA - It might change all equation


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## DMLA

LT.PRATEEK said:


> Actually i read that article earlier
> This is from CEO business Magazine
> Any way thnx
> 
> And DMLA/Sancho do you guys follow janes or do you have a Subscription
> Actually there is an latest article on MRCA - It might change all equation



I do. Which week's edition? Lemme know and I will get back asap!


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## KEETARP

DMLA said:


> I do. Which week's edition? Lemme know and I will get back asap!



here is the link
Jane's Defence Weekly - Your first line of defence

Search the article its like-
*India considers tandem MMRCA radar competition*
*The Indian Air Force (IAF) may run a separate radar competition in tandem with its Medium-Multirole Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) programme, Russian industry sources have...*

I guess they update that page daily so it has been moved to archives which is visible to paid subscribers only, it was there 24 hrs ago
I actually asked it earlier also - no one responded
http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/4347-mrca-news-discussions-94.html#post706799


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## DMLA

Dude I can't find it in the link 

Anyhow, I have access to the JDW. I have the march 3rd copy in my hands and apart from a small article on probable downsizing of the number of companies (MMRCA) there is no other mmrca related news. There is a news article on MBT simulator trials and another one on indo-chinese joint air force exercises! That's about it!

Sorry can't help you anymore....


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## KEETARP

DMLA said:


> Dude I can't find it in the link
> 
> Anyhow, I have access to the JDW. I have the march 3rd copy in my hands and apart from a small article on probable downsizing of the number of companies (MMRCA) there is no other mmrca related news. There is a news article on MBT simulator trials and another one on indo-chinese joint air force exercises! That's about it!
> 
> Sorry can't help you anymore....



Actually i found it
Jane's Defence Weekly - Asia/Pacific

Scroll a bit down - Its the 8th news from top

Plz post the detail asap - i am eager to know


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## DMLA

LT.PRATEEK said:


> Actually i found it
> Jane's Defence Weekly - Asia/Pacific
> 
> Scroll a bit down - Its the 8th news from top
> 
> Plz post the detail asap - i am eager to know



Dude I don't have access to JDW online. Give me a few days and I will try and get access to the article through someone!

tc.


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## KEETARP

DMLA said:


> Dude I don't have access to JDW online. Give me a few days and I will try and get access to the article through someone!
> 
> tc.



Thnx -get it done as soon as possible
I am also trying to get my friends from IAF ( Batchmates) to help me out with this.


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## DMLA

> You've probably read the reports about BAE Systems divesting a large part of its shareholding in Gripen/Saab with the intention to pull out completely from the company shortly. From the way things look right now, it appears Gripen is relieved to be rid of the British company. The rationale -- the BAE tag brought enormous negative perceptions, and continues to cast a shadow on deals already signed. For India, the pull-out gives BAE conditions to focus unequivocally on the Typhoon, rather than keep at a stand-off distance with fingers in two contending pies. The Gripen field evaluation trials (the last in the series) begin shortly. The just concluded Eurofighter trials went through well, sources have just told me. Stay tuned for updates.



Source: LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence: BAE Pulls Out Of Saab, Gripen Feels Cleansed


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## Dash

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/defense/index.jsp?plckController=Blog&plckBlogPage=BlogVie wPost&newspaperUserId=27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7&plckPostId=Blog%3a27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7Post%3a9f6f828e-4f32-42d9-be7e-54daa51b1634&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=b logDest

@ Sancho - Here is the link to the article....some big link.
@ LT Prateek - I will give my response soon for the swashplate radar discussion.


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## Tejas-MkII

LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence: BAE Pulls Out Of Saab, Gripen Feels Cleansed

*BAE Pulls Out Of Saab, Gripen Feels Cleansed*

You've probably read the reports about BAE Systems divesting a large part of its shareholding in Gripen/Saab with the intention to pull out completely from the company shortly. From the way things look right now, it appears Gripen is relieved to be rid of the British company. The rationale -- the BAE tag brought enormous negative perceptions, and continues to cast a shadow on deals already signed. *For India, the pull-out gives BAE conditions to focus unequivocally on the Typhoon, rather than keep at a stand-off distance with fingers in two contending pies*. The Gripen field evaluation trials (the last in the series) begin shortly. *The just concluded Eurofighter trials went through well, sources have just told me. *Stay tuned for updates.


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## sancho

Tejas-MkII said:


> LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence: BAE Pulls Out Of Saab, Gripen Feels Cleansed
> 
> *BAE Pulls Out Of Saab, Gripen Feels Cleansed*
> 
> You've probably read the reports about BAE Systems divesting a large part of its shareholding in Gripen/Saab with the intention to pull out completely from the company shortly. From the way things look right now, it appears Gripen is relieved to be rid of the British company. The rationale -- the BAE tag brought enormous negative perceptions, and continues to cast a shadow on deals already signed. *For India, the pull-out gives BAE conditions to focus unequivocally on the Typhoon, rather than keep at a stand-off distance with fingers in two contending pies*. The Gripen field evaluation trials (the last in the series) begin shortly. *The just concluded Eurofighter trials went through well, sources have just told me. *Stay tuned for updates.


Wonder how that will change the source code and ToT offer of the Selex radar where BAE also is a partner?



DMLA said:


> All the talk of joint projects et al..... they never provide us with so called "technology". *These projects invovlve the transfer of complete systems from the partner and the local agencies like DRDO do integration* !
> There are many examples with some of the latest being proposed SRSAM with french and barak with israel !!



That happen in the past, exactly because we were only a simple buyer like anybody else, so they had no need to provide us more than ToT to assemble the fighters in India. But see the difference since the MKI procurement!
We not only customized the fighter for our needs, we made the deal with the production of nearly all parts in India, so we are not reliant on Russian supply of spares like in the past. I don't think this would be possible if they didn't provided us with cearly more ToT than before right?
So we already used ToT to improve our situation and my point is that MMRCA must be decided by the package of advantages for IAF/MoD/GoI/indigenous industry and not only to give IAF the best fighter! It is simply not enough for us, to buy the best fighter only, or remain in a simple buyer-seller relation like the Gulf states and as reliant on foreign countries. If we pay for foreign arms, they must not only improve our forces, but also to some extend our industry for the future.



DMLA said:


> My only contention is that the armed forces are tasked with a very important job. I don't feel it is right for them to go for compromises when they are putting their lives on the line everyday!
> 
> Added later: It is the job of DPSU's to develop necessary systems. Why should IAF be obliged to change its stance and go for inferior systems just so DRDO could get the technology? I agree that compromises can be made, but I hope IAF's choices (wrt MMRCA) are looked at favourably!!



Of course IAF choice will make be amajor factor, but we are not searching for a new main air superiority fighter, MMRCA is just an addition to MKI and a replacement for a part of the Mig 21 fleet. So there are not really many compromises IAF would have to make, because all fighters are clear improvements of the fleet! My guess is that IAF prefers good A2G capabilities and that will be the main difference for them.

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## DMLA

> Two Swedish Air Force JAS-39 Gripen-Ds departed Sweden on Sunday and are on their way to India as we speak for the final round of the field evaluation trials (FET) under the Indian medium multirole combat aircraft (MMRCA) competition. The Gripens begin their trials at the Aircraft Systems & Testing Establishment (ASTE) in Bangalore early this week. The Gripen-Ds are being flown by Saab test pilots and Swedish air force pilots.
> 
> "IAF test pilots have already undergone intensive training on the aircraft and the aircraft have already undergone the first stage of trials in Linkoping in November 2009, which included flight performance, logistics capability, weapons systems, advanced sensors and weapons firing," said Gripen India campaign head Eddy de la Motte in response to an e-mail I sent in to Saab.
> 
> Asked about whether the Gripen Demo aircraft -- on which the Gripen IN is based (see here) -- would figure in the trials at all, de la Motte said, "The Demo is a development vehicle which the IAF will have complete access to within the current parameters of development. Gripen NG capabilities have been demonstrated during the evaluation trials in November 2009 when the Indian evaluation team was in Sweden."



link: LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence: Gripens Depart Sweden For Trials In India


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## KEETARP

*Movements of Mirage 2000 to support​*
Des mouvements de Mirage 2000 pour supporter le Rafale (Partie 2). | Aviation militaire



> After traveling to Brazil and the UAE in search of uncorked for used Mirage 2000 and Rafale, we will focus on Iraq, where France is trying to make a comeback.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We also go to Kuwait where the Rafale is still in contention for the purchase of new aircraft but who knows economic hardship. Finally, we take our flight to India we talk a lot now. Between renovation Mirage 2000H and attempt to sell the Rafale, we see that the Mirage 2000 was still an important part in these negotiations.
> 
> Iraq: Consider the development of the Mirage 2000.
> We talked recently, the progress in Iraq France. While the country was one of the suppliers favorite former Iraqi regime, U.S. intervention has changed the situation. Even TOTAL, yet historically close to the Iraqis failed to secure a major contract with English side of Shell. Only today, the dialogue between Paris and Baghdad is again open.
> Recently, the Iraqi military in France asked to kindly honor its commitments to the delivery of 24 Mirage F1. The aircraft ordered before the war were never delivered because of the arms embargo. If this case we will detail in a previous article, it is ultimately the Mirage F1CT gradually withdrawn from service in France who could take the route of 'Iraq. The country has a total of 114 Mirage F1 at different operational stages.
> In front of the Mirage, the eternal American F-16 attempted a raid in Iraq. Dominant in the country, Americans do not appreciate the reopening of dialogue between French and Iraqis. In addition to the operational needs of the armies, but Baghdad wants control over its airspace faster. Helped by windfall oil but handicapped by a country to rebuild, Iraqis have bread on the plate. However, threats and challenge the withdrawal of foreign forces, Baghdad might be open to a new proposal. If the sale of Rafale seems absurd, the Mirage 2000 could come back rub to F-16. It is believed then to UAE Mirage 2000-9 whose value can be negotiated.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kuwait: go to the evidence.
> During his tour in the Gulf in February 2009, President Sarkozy had said that discussions would be open with Kuwait about a possible sale from 14 to 28 copies of the multi-role combat aircraft, Dassault Rafale Aviation. At one point it was thought that the Saab Gripen had taken the market yet, the Kuwaiti authorities have reaffirmed their interest in the French hunter. It also deserves "special attention" when the contracts are potentially many in the country . Besides aircraft, France could sell warships and a nuclear reactor.
> Kuwait, however, wanted to follow very closely the current negotiations with the United Arab Emirates. However, as we now know these negotiations would be getting on well. In this case, the Rafale would become the favorite of Kuwait City.
> Meanwhile, what could be the initial choice of Kuwait for the Gripen could whet the appetite of the French. If it is assumed that Kuwait can not afford Rafale for reasons of economic rationality, the country might be willing to afford the Mirage 2000. Still, this option is impractical. On the one hand the Kuwaitis want surely match the United Arab Emirates in the choice of a fourth-generation device +. On the other hand, it would once again provide practice in the country Mirage 2000-9 which would then Emirates. Used equipment which should perhaps not in this country.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *India: *
> *The renovation of the fifty Mirage 2000H advance.
> Everyone knows that Dassault competition in India with its Rafale for the largest tender of the moment. 126 combat aircraft will be purchased by New Delhi and the competition is fierce. If the F-16I for Israel had developed a time favorite, the Eurofighter consortium led by EADS seems he took the ascendancy. But with historic cooperation between Russia and France, the Indian market has not yet played. In all cases, if the contract amounted to industry lights would be another step forward for a Franco-Indian cooperation further.
> Thus, contracts are increasing in India. In negotiations for years, upgrading the Mirage 2000H has never been so close to an agreement. The information revealed by the Times of India is significant because a French delegation is expected in the country next month. It is to be finally agreed on the exclusive contract that would commit the French industrialists, led by Thales and the DGA, for forty years. The amount of this agreement is valued at &#8364; 1.5bn, but again, the price wedges. It would be 30&#37; more than wishes to pay the Indian Air Strength.
> Once is not custom, a significant effort must be made in the French camp. While India has preferred a single tender in the direction of Thales and its allies, the Israeli companies are not far away and watch everything. Finally, compensation industry will once again be crucial in obtaining this contract. If a handful of Mirage should join the hexagon, the vast majority of them should be upgraded on Indian soil. The French will work well with HAL (Hindustan Aeronautics Limited) to upgrade the hunters*.



How abt this angle

Actually i have much more imp news -
F18+F16 are almost out of French Competition- Only formalities are left
Apoio de Lula ao Ir&#227; Faz Obama Cancelar Visita ao Brasil em 2010 @ Blog Defesa BR


> Hilary Back in US after Failed Brazil visit- Obama to miss Visit
> Hillary back in the U.S. without being able to circumvent trade disputes with Brazil and Obama cancels visit to Lula
> Claudio Dantas Sequeira
> The "positive agenda" that the U.S. Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton, wanted to open on his visit to Brasilia on Wednesday 3, should be forgotten in the bottom drawer. At least until the end of President Luiz In&#225;cio Lula da Silva.
> 
> Despite filing facilities, reception to Hillary at the Foreign Ministry has not been very diplomatic. Both Lula and Foreign Minister Celso Amorim preferred to use the meeting to mark positions in support of negotiations with Oir&#227; address and, frankly, the trade disputes involving tariff barriers to ethanol and retaliation authorized by Organiza&#231;&#227;oMundial Trade Organization (WTO) in the case of cotton.
> 
> Clinton, who expected a friendly contact in which convince the Brazilian government to purchase F-18 Super Hornet, went away disappointed. "The Brazilians say they lack confidence in the relationship with the U.S.," she lamented with his aides.
> 
> The worst for Secretary of State were the statements about the Amorim da Silva's support on Iran "We can not bend. We think with our own head, "cried Amorim. Lula, in turn, said that one can not "wall in Iran."
> 
> The most immediate consequence of the position of Brazil, according determine this, the suspension will be "sine die" of President Barack Obama, which should occur in the first half.
> 
> "The trip was put aside," says a diplomat who attended the meeting between Amorim and Hillary. A last attempt to approach will be made on Tuesday 9, with the arrival of U.S. Secretary of Commerce, Gary Locke.
> 
> But it should not bear fruit because Amorim said that the list of American products subject to retaliation authorized by the WTO against U.S. subsidies for cotton will be announced the day before.
> 
> The WTO authorized Brazil to retaliate up to $ 830 million annual U.S. products and the government is working on a list of up to 120 items that will suffer the import surcharge.
> 
> On the possibility of an American contrarretalia&#231;&#227;o, Amorim abused irony: "In this scare I do not die. I can not imagine that the U.S., which promoted the creation of the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade, WTO, will use an instrument outside of international rules, "he said. Hillary has shown good will: "We have time to try to resolve this peacefully and productively."
> 
> According to the professor of economics at the Trevisan Business School, Alcides Milk, "the businessmen of both countries have most to gain from the expansion of the staff than with the sanctions that tend to feed a negative cycle." He points out that decision favorable to the WTO may be a "bargaining chip" in other negotiations.
> 
> Hence the U.S. effort in a positive agenda that helps to open the market for U.S. exports. With the recent approval of the Board of an agreement to exchange tax information are expected to progress negotiations on the end of double taxation. But none of this will advance while the diplomatic wrangling continues over the Iranian nuclear issue.
> 
> Our Review:
> 
> Lula's support to Iran Cancel Obama Makes Visit to Brazil in 2010
> 
> For the first time in recent history, Brazil can distance themselves from the addiction that kept the United States. This should not only be a policy of the Lula government, but a policy of the Brazilian state.
> 
> No matter if the attitude of administration is for or against Iran, but it is certainly against the interests of American domination of the Middle East, initiated by Iraq, and then extended to Afghanistan, through other subjects.
> 
> Moreover, in the case of the cotton dispute, Brazil, today announced an unprecedented list of American products to be overcharged with an increase in import tariff, which is a retaliation for and legally authorized by the WTO.
> 
> Secretary of State Hillary Clinton took too long to decide to visit Brazil. Arrived late and returned early. If she expected a friendly contact, was disappointed to hear the Brazilians who lack confidence in the relationship with the U.S..
> 
> But what she wanted? Wonder: who's to blame? Well, read this link and reflect quite calm about how and where we came painfully in the process of geopolitical independence.
> 
> Brazil is seeking its place in the world and now freed from the shackles and whip of the U.S..

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## Aryaputra

sancho said:


> It is simply not enough for us, to buy the best fighter only, or remain in a simple buyer-seller relation like the Gulf states and as reliant on foreign countries. If we pay for foreign arms, they must not only improve our forces, but also to some extend our industry for the future.



True.

MRCA is not about choosing "best fighter". Its much more than that.


----------



## Aryaputra

DMLA said:


> My assertion has been in response to the talk of "critical technology" coming our way! For example, how does it matter if USA sells us the inner workings of their ECCM/ECM systems on board the fighters - atleast to IAF. All they would care about is to be able to maintain threat libraries!!!



Don't get fooled by what Janes or US ambassador says. USA says one thing in public, while another in private with GoI.

See ISRO Chief's statement last week where he exposed American double-speak.


----------



## DMLA

Gripen D for flight trials...

$11 bn in the balance, a no-show by Gripen fighter



> The high-voltage $11 billion contest to sell India 126 Medium Multi-Role Fighter Aircraft (MMRCA) is reaching the end of the trials phase in a blaze of potential controversy. Today, the last of the six contenders being evaluated by the Indian Air Force  the Swedish Gripen  will fly into Bangalore for trials. But Business Standard has learnt that the fighters that will touch down are not the ones Gripen International has offered: the JAS-39IN Gripen NG. Instead, two older-model Gripen-D fighters will arrive.
> The Gripen NG, a light, agile, ultra-modern fighter built by Swedish aerospace giant Saab, has always been one of the hottest contenders in the fray. Saabs default on the MoDs trial directive, which lays down that the fighter being offered must be the one that comes for trials, will delight its rivals  Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Dassault, Eurofighter and MiG  since Gripen is now vulnerable to disqualification.
> 
> The arrival of the Gripen-D instead of the Gripen NG has a simple cause: the Swedish Air Force, having opted to buy the Gripen NG, has ordered a series of improvements on the Gripen NG prototype. With those under way, Swedens flight certification agency, SMV, has ruled that the prototypes require additional flight-testing in Sweden before the aircraft can be sent to India.
> 
> Confirming these developments, Gripen Internationals Director India Eddy de la Motte told Business Standard, The Gripen NG prototype cannot come just yet to India as it is required in Sweden for testing and evaluation by the Swedish Air Force which is interested in buying the fighter. Indian pilots have not yet flown the Gripen NG, but we will make sure that they get an opportunity at the very earliest.
> 
> Sources close to the Gripen campaign say IAF pilots will be offered a chance to fly the Gripen NG during a visit to Sweden from April 6 to April 10. Gripen International will also ask for fresh dates for bringing the Gripen NG to India for trials.
> 
> Even without having flown the Gripen NG prototype, IAF pilots have been extremely impressed by the fighters capabilities. Besides superb avionics and superior flight performance, they say the Gripen NG can land on an 800-metre stretch of highway; and then refuel, rearm and take-off within 10 minutes. This allows each Gripen NG to fly far more sorties per day than any other aircraft today.
> 
> The IAF pilots who have visited the Gripen simulators in Sweden have also been impressed by its electronic warfare capabilities and by the training facilities on offer.
> 
> The Swedish MoDs unexpected refusal to allow the Gripen NG to India for trials has blown the race wide open. From a clear front-runner in the eyes of the IAF, the Gripen NGs very participation in trials now depends upon a decision to be taken by the IAF and the Indian MoD.


----------



## DMLA

sancho said:


> That happen in the past, exactly because we were only a simple buyer like anybody else, so they had no need to provide us more than ToT to assemble the fighters in India. *But see the difference since the MKI procurement!*We not only customized the fighter for our needs, we made the deal with the production of nearly all parts in India, so we are not reliant on Russian supply of spares like in the past. I don't think this would be possible if they didn't provided us with cearly more ToT than before right?
> So we already used ToT to improve our situation and my point is that MMRCA must be decided by the package of advantages for IAF/MoD/GoI/indigenous industry and not only to give IAF the best fighter! It is simply not enough for us, to buy the best fighter only, or remain in a simple buyer-seller relation like the Gulf states and as reliant on foreign countries. If we pay for foreign arms, they must not only improve our forces, but also to some extend our industry for the future.
> 
> 
> Of course IAF choice will make be amajor factor, but we are not searching for a new main air superiority fighter, MMRCA is just an addition to MKI and a replacement for a part of the Mig 21 fleet. So there are not really many compromises IAF would have to make, because all fighters are clear improvements of the fleet! My guess is that IAF prefers good A2G capabilities and that will be the main difference for them.



How many procurements has the IAF had since mki ? What difference are we supposed to see? We should not consider the last decade when Russia was bankrupt and was willing to sell anyone & anything for dough! In the past few years, we are seeing the true (rather normal) picture where vendor make sure their technology if sold is at a premium. The deal was bound to contain "localized production" looking at the huge numbers in question ! Did I say that we will have somehting different with MMRCA ? I am saying critical technology (such as radar) may not be a part of the offset agreement. For example, BARS (N011M) is NOT made in India !

The equation has changes since the "replacement for mig" mantra of late 1990's. Now, the MMRCA is more about technology. IAF wants the best and could care less if DPSU's get any technology in the bargain. It is the Govt. of India which is (and should) try all it can to get the maximum technology/ incentives/ investments back into the indian defence industry. The realization that no country will give you technology and that we will have to develope the same has finally sunk in the minds of our defence scientists and they are now looking at "co-development " to cater to the requirements of armed forces without 30 year delays !!


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## DMLA

Aryaputra said:


> Don't get fooled by what Janes or US ambassador says. USA says one thing in public, while another in private with GoI.
> 
> See ISRO Chief's statement last week where he exposed American double-speak.



I am not "getting fooled"! I know US *MAY NOT* part with critical technologies. Have I said otherwise? My point was that *IF THEY DO*, there is no harm in buying a platform from them as long as we can keep it operational.


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## sancho

DMLA said:


> Gripen D for flight trials...
> 
> $11 bn in the balance, a no-show by Gripen fighter



Actually they don't have to come to the trials with the final version of the fighter, because neither the Mig 35, nor the EF could do that now, but at least some of the new techs and capabilities should be shown. This is not possible with normal Gripen C/Ds, because it don't has the new AESA radar, nor the new EWS, not even the new engine with higher thrust, so what exactly should IAF get from testing these fighters in the trials?
Imo, IAF/MoD must disqualify them right away, because this is far away from the requirements!


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## sancho

DMLA said:


> How many procurements has the IAF had since mki ? What difference are we supposed to see?


Mate, before MKI we was only a simple buyer even to Russia, now we got the status of a partner to them (although a minor one), that's why we now get the options to co-develop arms and techs together with them. Pak Fa / FGFA, MRTA, they offered a co-development in AESA radars if we buy Mig 35, they offer co-development for a new helicopter and so on. 
I am not that naiv to believe that is only because they like us so much, but also because the lack of money they have to fund these developments alone. But it is undeniable that our defense industry also improved in the last decade too, still not enough to be selfsufficiant, but now it is at a level to be a help for Russians developments too. So instead of just selling arms to us, we are more important to them as a partner now!
This is a whole new level and imo, our aim must be to get the same status at developments of western countries too. If our industry can improves more, we might see co-developed fighters with France, or Germany in future too. They also realised our improvements and also their relation towards us has changed, full ToT and source codes are offered now from nearly all European countries and not only for MMRCA as the official of Thyssen Krupp stated in the navy thread. So we have to take these chances now, instead of limiting ourself by tying to US in a buyer-seller relationship again.


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## KEETARP

I think our position has changed no doubt, we are now given TOT and partner status but its just bcoz of money and economy situation.
How others perceive us , still that is where we were 40 years back ie;A country which depends heavily on foreign tech for defence needs.
We cant give any thing substantial, apart from Some Space Launching capability/manufacturing doors,airframe at reasonable price.
Thats why we will partner only in FGFA dev/ while 0% in PAK FA simply bcoz what we can contribute is not good enough
I am sure Israel if had money could have dev Barak alone.
Similarly Russia if had funds Brahmos would have been russian alone.
They came to us for joint dev and mass production bcoz they can cut costs while meantime making profit for their industries also.
We still are struggling with essential tech 
Electronics for TANK+HELICOPTORS+FIGHTER JETS are all Israel/Western
Avionics for ALH/LCH/LCA all are from foreign collaboration/manufactured under licence.
Engines powering Dhruv/LCA are foreign partners.

What we have achieved till now will not be considered self reliance until we achieve 100% indigenous tech.
*It will take time and bold effort - it could have been easy if we were not forced at war , we easily could have become self reliant like France till now.*

Still Gov is more worried abt more indigenous devlopment while Army wants best tech to defend our land- thats where problem lies and delays creep in . Bcoz everyday tech keeps changing.
Gov is doing everything to build up our homeland devlopment- new procurement policy+non stop funds + time even at cost of loosing pilots with every crash.
If we dont take up indigenous dev more seriously countries will always arm-twist us
Now only IAF+ARMY have started supporting home made products so better things will come in future 

Whatever we see - ARJUN+TEJAS+ARIHANT+SHIPs+FRIGATES+ AIRCRAFT CARRIERS
still uses more than 50% foreign components but at least products are showing maturation.

This MRCA decision will go long enough in history to determine what self reliance we can achieve in future, any mistake will keep us where we are currently now


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## Dash

LT.PRATEEK said:


> I think our position has changed no doubt, we are now given TOT and partner status but its just bcoz of money and economy situation.
> How others perceive us , still that is where we were 40 years back ie;A country which depends heavily on foreign tech for defence needs.
> We cant give any thing substantial, apart from Some Space Launching capability/manufacturing doors,airframe at reasonable price.
> Thats why we will partner only in FGFA dev/ while 0&#37; in PAK FA simply bcoz what we can contribute is not good enough
> I am sure Israel if had money could have dev Barak alone.
> Similarly Russia if had funds Brahmos would have been russian alone.
> They came to us for joint dev and mass production bcoz they can cut costs while meantime making profit for their industries also.
> We still are struggling with essential tech
> Electronics for TANK+HELICOPTORS+FIGHTER JETS are all Israel/Western
> Avionics for ALH/LCH/LCA all are from foreign collaboration/manufactured under licence.
> Engines powering Dhruv/LCA are foreign partners.
> 
> What we have achieved till now will not be considered self reliance until we achieve 100% indigenous tech.
> *It will take time and bold effort - it could have been easy if we were not forced at war , we easily could have become self reliant like France till now.*
> 
> Still Gov is more worried abt more indigenous devlopment while Army wants best tech to defend our land- thats where problem lies and delays creep in . Bcoz everyday tech keeps changing.
> Gov is doing everything to build up our homeland devlopment- new procurement policy+non stop funds + time even at cost of loosing pilots with every crash.
> If we dont take up indigenous dev more seriously countries will always arm-twist us
> Now only IAF+ARMY have started supporting home made products so better things will come in future
> 
> Whatever we see - ARJUN+TEJAS+ARIHANT+SHIPs+FRIGATES+ AIRCRAFT CARRIERS
> still uses more than 50% foreign components but at least products are showing maturation.
> 
> This MRCA decision will go long enough in history to determine what self reliance we can achieve in future, any mistake will keep us where we are currently now


However Let me ask all of us a question, iam including myself coz Iam also looking for an answer.
Apologies if this is off topic, but I think its relevant what I am saying.

Now the so called TOT as we all know is a major issue.
What we are trying to do here to foreign firms is as we are asking them to give much with a little or more than what they will get in return.

It seems very much inconvincing to me to ask someone to transfer 50% tech or some tech by just paying intellectual property right. technology is the bread and butter for these companies and they are the big names coz of the BIG technology they have.

1. Look at what happenned to Mahindra and BAE JV in 2008 I guess when BAE wanted a 49% share in a JV.
2. Also Illushin was turned down a share of 49% when it wanted to start the JV with HAL for MRTA.

In late April 2008, MoD had proposed to relax FDI cap of 26 per cent to allow Russia&#8217;s Ilyushin Aviation Complex to own 49 per cent stake in a JV with India&#8217; State controlled HAL for co-development of multi-role transport aircraft. If the public sector company is able to get favourable treatment, why the same can not be extended to a reputed private company?

If the MoD&#8217; aim is to treat both the public and private sectors equally, it should have fought hard to see the proposal pass though, or at best deferred the proposal till a suitable redressal mechanism was found. Either way, the MoD&#8217;s efforts could have satisfied the private sector which is critical of the government&#8217;s protectionism attitude towards the defence public sector enterprises. 

Perhaps, the greatest damage caused by this incident is the palpable loss of confidence of the foreign companies in India&#8217;s decision makers responsible for defence production. It is to be noted that if the MDS-BAE JV had passed thorough, it would have been the .rst one in India&#8217;s defence industry involving a domestic private player and an international partner with near 50-50 ownership rights. A successful passage of this JV would have paved the way for many such ventures in future. By turning down the JV the decision-makers have not only silenced the expectation of a particular case but created a situation where the foreign companies looking for greater Indian presence become more suspicious of the government&#8217;s seriousness of attracting higher investment.

Our over protectiveness will not pay us good until and unless MOD and MOF open up and pave doors like GOI did to IT,ITES and health sector. Clearly these sectors are booming and we are seeing a progress.

I am in strong belief that things might change in NEAR future and India might give a 46% cap on FDI in defence sectors.

but these kind of slowness in decisions are only hampering our national security.


*and unless and until this happens we will be getting rotten parts and knocked down kits and keep complaining with what we are getting as of now.*

We need to take some drastic step now. else we will always talk about TOT, but never get the full advantage of it...


please feel free to comment.


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## KEETARP

Dash said:


> However Let me ask all of us a question, iam including myself coz Iam also looking for an answer.
> Apologies if this is off topic, but I think its relevant what I am saying.
> 
> Now the so called TOT as we all know is a major issue.
> What we are trying to do here to foreign firms is as we are asking them to give much with a little or more than what they will get in return.
> 
> It seems very much inconvincing to me to ask someone to transfer 50% tech or some tech by just paying intellectual property right. technology is the bread and butter for these companies and they are the big names coz of the BIG technology they have.
> 
> 1. Look at what happenned to Mahindra and BAE JV in 2008 I guess when BAE wanted a 49% share in a JV.
> 2. Also Illushin was turned down a share of 49% when it wanted to start the JV with HAL for MRTA.
> 
> In late April 2008, MoD had proposed to relax FDI cap of 26 per cent to allow Russia&#8217;s Ilyushin Aviation Complex to own 49 per cent stake in a JV with India&#8217; State controlled HAL for co-development of multi-role transport aircraft. If the public sector company is able to get favourable treatment, why the same can not be extended to a reputed private company?
> 
> If the MoD&#8217; aim is to treat both the public and private sectors equally, it should have fought hard to see the proposal pass though, or at best deferred the proposal till a suitable redressal mechanism was found. Either way, the MoD&#8217;s efforts could have satisfied the private sector which is critical of the government&#8217;s protectionism attitude towards the defence public sector enterprises.
> 
> Perhaps, the greatest damage caused by this incident is the palpable loss of confidence of the foreign companies in India&#8217;s decision makers responsible for defence production. It is to be noted that if the MDS-BAE JV had passed thorough, it would have been the .rst one in India&#8217;s defence industry involving a domestic private player and an international partner with near 50-50 ownership rights. A successful passage of this JV would have paved the way for many such ventures in future. By turning down the JV the decision-makers have not only silenced the expectation of a particular case but created a situation where the foreign companies looking for greater Indian presence become more suspicious of the government&#8217;s seriousness of attracting higher investment.
> 
> Our over protectiveness will not pay us good until and unless MOD and MOF open up and pave doors like GOI did to IT,ITES and health sector. Clearly these sectors are booming and we are seeing a progress.
> 
> I am in strong belief that things might change in NEAR future and India might give a 46% cap on FDI in defence sectors.
> 
> but these kind of slowness in decisions are only hampering our national security.
> 
> 
> *and unless and until this happens we will be getting rotten parts and knocked down kits and keep complaining with what we are getting as of now.*
> 
> We need to take some drastic step now. else we will always talk about TOT, but never get the full advantage of it...
> 
> 
> please feel free to comment.



But BRO
Opening up of companies for disinvestment and takeover is not that simple.
Suppose When you give 50% stake to Boeing in HAl - and they design weapons which are matter of national interest and security and things turn ugly then what?? US can always create problems for us by virtue of Boeing.
I firmly believe national interest should not be compromised.

And above all we are talking abt 35 billions of dollars for 126 machines not just change.
After all we are paying premium amnt - devlopmental cost of these machines is already accounted.
If we drop TOT we can get every jet in 50-60mill a piece.


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## Dash

I think its not that simple that some foreign company will make some weapon, which will be a threat to national security.

We are not talking about 50&#37; share, just increase the cap to a bigger extent.
How many sectors we have seen where investment is 40-46% and things have gone wrong.

You always have a company governed by rules.
countries like Brazil are also waking up to the 46% cap. I dont think they have *NOT* thought of national security compromises.

We need to drop the mis trust. Things will not go odd.
A company will not develpe a weapon alone, coz you have an Indian and one foreign.
This will simply not happen.

I think from this perspective. We need to open up now.

Somebody needs to have guts to face the truth, the obstacle mainly GOI and then still come up with things done.

I personally feel, we lived in 50 years of mistrust. we opened up a bit now we have a trillion dollar plus economy.

Times change and we need to change too.

Just my 2 cents.


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## KEETARP

What i meant was weapon designed for India's defence but bcoz boeing is a partner, its secret being leaked out is a possibility.

There is nothing better than thn self-reliant.
You simply cant trust United states as a strategic ally bcoz our goals will clash at some point of time.

Its to our credit- That we are keeping a safe distance regarding defence business with US like a true professional.
They are interested in our money giving us Nuclear freedom and tech.
We need that tech, but without compromising our position of non aligning and national interests .

We can never compare Health issue to A Defence issue
Defence is a matter of national security and survival ,nothing is bigger than this than this

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## Dash

Secret cant be leaked out in 26&#37; FDi cap?


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## KEETARP

Very much possible.
Thats why even setting up a new venture with a company it needs nod of gov.
See our SAM JV with MBDA is in hang requiring gov decision to be final.

Dis investing a gov company is simply not only possible solution.
Look at SAAB share holdings - i think BAE had only 10&#37; of share still they produce quality machines


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## KEETARP

DMLA said:


> Gripen D for flight trials...
> 
> $11 bn in the balance, a no-show by Gripen fighter



If gripen had a Eu2000 ENGINE INSTEAD OF f114-AE . I can bet no one would have come close to challenge it in MRCA
*Plz remember phase2 of trials require only airframe,aerodynamics,environment stress and avionics functionality test*. 
*Sensors+Radar+Weapon firing is to be done in Phase3 in April-june trial.*
By the time IAF goes for phase3 in SWEDEN , i am sure it would get NG with new radar+new weapons+new sensors to test.
Only question is whether NG has different airframe design or not?????If yes they are out, if no then green light(similar to fulcrums,viper)

By the way guys any idea regarding number of TR modules on AESA in GRIPEN
My estimate is it wont be greater than 650MMIC module array ,if thats true it wont have a greater range than what gripen c&d has.


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## sancho

LT.PRATEEK said:


> If gripen had a Eu2000 ENGINE INSTEAD OF f114-AE . I can bet no one would have come close to challenge it in MRCA
> *Plz remember phase2 of trials require only airframe,aerodynamics,environment stress and avionics functionality test*.
> *Sensors+Radar+Weapon firing is to be done in Phase3 in April-june trial.*
> By the time IAF goes for phase3 in SWEDEN , i am sure it would get NG with new radar+new weapons+new sensors to test.
> Only question is whether NG has different airframe design or not?????If yes they are out, if no then green light(similar to fulcrums,viper)
> 
> By the way guys any idea regarding number of TR modules on AESA in GRIPEN
> My estimate is it wont be greater than 650MMIC module array ,if thats true it wont have a greater range than what gripen c&d has.


You forget another major point! The flight trials will be held in 3 different areas in India and in different climats, to see how the fighters perform all over the country. How should IAF get a picture of Gripen NGs performance, if not only the same airframe, but moreover not even the same engine is present in India? 
The Gripen C/D uses a pretty much the same GE 404 engine that LCA MK1 uses and has similar empty weight, Gripen NG instead should get the GE 414 of the F18 Super Hornet and has an empty weight of around 7t! This performance differences can't be seen if IAF pilots goes to Sweden and test the fighter there and makes this whole test imo totally useless!


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## KEETARP

Thats what i said - If there is no difference in airframe.

And bro just now i heard on forum post on *** that gripen has completed its phase3 earlier, Is it true???????????


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## sancho

LT.PRATEEK said:


> Thats what i said - If there is no difference in airframe.
> 
> And bro just now i heard on forum post on *** that gripen has completed its phase3 earlier, Is it true???????????



Of course there is a difference in the airframe, otherwise it would increase weight from ~5,5t to ~ 7,1t, it get more internal fuel and payload too. But even if the airframe would be the same, the engines are important for the performance difference in different climats.

Sorry don't know about that, if you get more infos about its performance, or the performance of the other fighters during the trials, please post them here too!


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## jha



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## jha



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## jha

which one is more KOOL....??


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## KEETARP

*F16 cool one *


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## jha

*Gripen and MIG-35 are expected to be the cheapest of the lot.Premier Putin's visit is eagerly anticipated as he is reputed for carrying quite a few tricks up his sleeve.The overall Indo-Russian defence relationship far exceeds anything imaginable in comparison with any other nation,most of all with the US.Nuclear subs,nuclear sub tech,nuclear power plants,nuclera sub bases,Gorshkov deal,Brahmos Amurs (anticipated),advanced missiles including anti-AWACS LR missiles,PAK-FA 5th-gen fighter,MTA,T-90s,FMBT development,offer of jet trainers,amphibians,apart from the existing Flanker production and MIG-29 upgrades and engine production,make the Russian pressure very hard to resist if its challenger comes along with "extras" as part of a package.With the extra MIG-29Ks signing expected during his visit and the Gorshkov price settled,one can be sure that Premier Putin will make an offer to the GOI which they will find difficult to refuse.In which case we might see more orders for MIGs as well as a western bird for the MMRCA.

The only strong factor that will be uppermost in the minds of the GOI is acquiring parallel western tech for providing our indigenous industry with a strong foundation upon which we can develop our own indigenous aircraft industry using the best of both worlds.While US tech is very welcome,if it can provide the same without the multiple strings and conditions that the Europeans do not insist upon,it is going to be a courageous govt. that wil opt solely for a US bird because of the fear of future sanctions,etc. during crisis ,especially for such a vital component of the IAF's inventory.

In a not too old interview our previous air chief,made an interesting statement ,that the "PAK-FA 5th-gen fighter would replace the MMRCA from about 2017..."! This is a most revealing statement of intent if true as it would indiate that the IAF wants only an interin fighter to make up numbers until the super-stealth bird arrives,well realising that the MMRCA birds belong to the 4+ to 4++ gen. at the most and will be swiftly outclassed by the 5th-gen bird whilst also being inferior to the existing Flanker and its future derivatives on order.This being the case,it explains some statements that over-exceeding the IAF's required capabilities will not bring in any "extra points" for the rivals as well as extra cost.

The imminent trip of the For.Sec. to the US for "high-tech" exports to India,could indicate that the issue of tech transfer and support to India has yet to be resolved and will be attempted so that the US birds get even with the Russians and Europeans.*



although this is a copy-paste but an interesting way to look at some issues..so i thought it would be good read..

now gurus come on and start analyzing keeping these points also, so that rookies like me get a real dose of analysis..


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## sancho

jha said:


> *Gripen and MIG-35 are expected to be the cheapest of the lot.Premier Putin's visit is eagerly anticipated as he is reputed for carrying quite a few tricks up his sleeve.The overall Indo-Russian defence relationship far exceeds anything imaginable in comparison with any other nation,most of all with the US.Nuclear subs,nuclear sub tech,nuclear power plants,nuclera sub bases,Gorshkov deal,Brahmos Amurs (anticipated),advanced missiles including anti-AWACS LR missiles,PAK-FA 5th-gen fighter,MTA,T-90s,FMBT development,offer of jet trainers,amphibians,apart from the existing Flanker production and MIG-29 upgrades and engine production,make the Russian pressure very hard to resist if its challenger comes along with "extras" as part of a package.With the extra MIG-29Ks signing expected during his visit and the Gorshkov price settled,one can be sure that Premier Putin will make an offer to the GOI which they will find difficult to refuse.In which case we might see more orders for MIGs as well as a western bird for the MMRCA.
> 
> The only strong factor that will be uppermost in the minds of the GOI is acquiring parallel western tech for providing our indigenous industry with a strong foundation upon which we can develop our own indigenous aircraft industry using the best of both worlds.While US tech is very welcome,if it can provide the same without the multiple strings and conditions that the Europeans do not insist upon,it is going to be a courageous govt. that wil opt solely for a US bird because of the fear of future sanctions,etc. during crisis ,especially for such a vital component of the IAF's inventory.
> 
> In a not too old interview our previous air chief,made an interesting statement ,that the "PAK-FA 5th-gen fighter would replace the MMRCA from about 2017..."! This is a most revealing statement of intent if true as it would indiate that the IAF wants only an interin fighter to make up numbers until the super-stealth bird arrives,well realising that the MMRCA birds belong to the 4+ to 4++ gen. at the most and will be swiftly outclassed by the 5th-gen bird whilst also being inferior to the existing Flanker and its future derivatives on order.This being the case,it explains some statements that over-exceeding the IAF's required capabilities will not bring in any "extra points" for the rivals as well as extra cost.
> 
> The imminent trip of the For.Sec. to the US for "high-tech" exports to India,could indicate that the issue of tech transfer and support to India has yet to be resolved and will be attempted so that the US birds get even with the Russians and Europeans.*
> 
> 
> 
> although this is a copy-paste but an interesting way to look at some issues..so i thought it would be good read..
> 
> now gurus come on and start analyzing keeping these points also, so that rookies like me get a real dose of analysis..



The initial competition of course was to get numbers as fast and cost-effective as possible, but that changed with the re-issue, because now MMRCA and LCA will come at the same time, so if it was only for numbers, we had cleared the deal with Mirage 2000, or additional Migs before and had already most of them inducted.

This new competition is about more, imo about higher and especially supplementing capablilities to IAF fleet, joint techs (engine, co-developed AESA radar) and weapons for LCA and MMRCA to reduce costs and ToT which will give the Indian defense industry important imputs for future developments.

Technically, if IAF had gone for Mirage 2005, or Mig 29 SMT would be 4th gen only and there would be a big difference of capabilities in the fleet when Pak Fa will be inducted. In that time these (M)MRCAs would not even reached half of their lifetime and couldn't be replaced so fast, so going for more capable 4+ gen makes a lot of sense for the long term, because these fighters will serve alongside LCA, MKI and even Pak Fa for decades and must be as lethal.


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## Chanakyaa

Just google for mig project 1.44 which has been reinitated under a differnt label.
MCA could find a support here.


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## jha

yeah, new name was LMFS . india was reported to have shown keen interest in the project..however the russians liked the sukhoi project better and hence mig stands cancelled...however if india is still interested than maybe we could get the expertise of mig in helping out in MCA...

however if by any chance GRIPEN NG is chosen in MRCA than they would be willing to transfer any key tech. they have to us since swedan is a small country...and i personally would like them to be a silent partner in MCA rather than MIG..


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## sancho

jha said:


> yeah, new name was LMFS . india was reported to have shown keen interest in the project..however the russians liked the sukhoi project better and hence mig stands cancelled...however if india is still interested than maybe we could get the expertise of mig in helping out in MCA...
> 
> however if by any chance GRIPEN NG is chosen in MRCA than they would be willing to transfer any key tech. they have to us since swedan is a small country...and i personally would like them to be a silent partner in MCA rather than MIG..



I don't see how Mig 1.44 expertise should help MCA, just look at the Mig and the MCA wind tunnel model and you will see that both are totally different designs.
The problem is, what key techs could Saab offer us that would be interesting? The Gripen NG engine is made in USA, the radar made in ITA/UK, which are exactly the 2 techs where LCA is lacking behind. Especially now that BAE bags out of Saab it will be interesting to see, how much radar ToT really will be on offer.
Saab also has no experience in making a fighter carrier capable, so wouldn't be a help for N-LCA, or if IN wants, N-MCA. The only advantages I see are, latest avionics (which we could develop with France, or Israel as well) and in stealth technology via stealthy UCAV developments like NEURON.


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## sudhir007

News related to Gripen-NG



> Gripen NG Demonstrator flight tests in progress idrw.org
> The flight test programme with Gripen NG Demonstrator continues according to plan at the Saab facilities in Link&#246;ping. The latest flight, number 117 since the flight test programme started, was flown today.
> 
> We are now testing all the tactical systems, such as the AESA radar and the new communications system. The test programme is very extensive, and the unusually harsh cold and snowy winter here in Sweden has challenged the programme schedule but we are now quickly catching up, says Mattias Bergstr&#246;m, the Gripen NG Demonstrator project manager.
> 
> We have finished, and successfully verified, the flight tests of the electro-optical Missile Approach Warning System (MAW) and the new fuel system with larger internal fuel tanks.
> 
> The Gripen NG is the next generation of the Gripen fighter, which is in service with the air forces of Sweden, the Czech Republic, Hungary and South Africa. It is also ordered by the Royal Thai Air Force and is flown by the Empire Test Pilots School, ETPS, in the UK.


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## sancho

sudhir007 said:


> News related to Gripen-NG





> We are now testing all the tactical systems, such as the *AESA radar and the new communications system*. The test programme is very extensive, and the unusually harsh cold and snowy winter here in Sweden has challenged the programme schedule but we are now quickly catching up, says Mattias Bergström, the Gripen NG Demonstrator project manager.
> 
> We have finished, and successfully verified, the flight tests of the electro-optical Missile Approach Warning System (*MAW) and the new fuel system with larger internal fuel tanks*.



Good for them, but no use for India, because we can only test the old stuff in the trials.


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## jha

something about SH..any impact on MRCA competition..

*Pressure Builds for More Hornets; Multi-Year OK Likely
*
By Colin Clark Wednesday, March 17th, 2010 12:17 pm
Posted in Air, Naval, Policy
Congressional pressure on the Pentagon to buy more F/A-18 E/Fs and use multi-year authority continues to build, with Sen. Kit Bond being the latest to leap on the bandwagon at today&#8217;s Senate Appropriations defense subcommittee hearing.

Bond sent a St. Patrick&#8217;s Day letter to Defense Secretary Robert Gates urging use of the multi-year authority and he pressed the Navy&#8217;s top leaders on the need for more Hornets. Navy Secretary Ray Mabus said the Navy believes Boeing&#8217;s February proposal for a multi-year deal meets the &#8220;threshold&#8221; for multi-year savings. The numbers are being reviewed by the Office of Secretary of Defense&#8217;s CAPE and Mabus told me a decision should be forthcoming in a few weeks, &#8220;sometime in April.&#8221;

The debate is sure to grow more heated with the news last week that the Navy and Marines were forced to red stripe &#8212; ground &#8212; 104 Hornets of models A through D. While it isn&#8217;t clear yet whether some of these planes will be pulled off the line there are already flight restrictions on the fleet of older Hornets. And that, a congressional aide noted, means the service life extension programs being considered for the Hornet may have to be scaled back.

The congressional aide, who follows the Hornet debate, said there are &#8220;No specifics on how many will be permanently grounded. Inspections ongoing. The big concern is that even after the visual inspection, there are still G limits on the planes until they get electronically inspected. This red stripe certainly raises questions about the Navy trying to SLEP legacy Hornets to 10,000 flight hours. There are all kinds of holes in the Navy&#8217;s plan to reduce the strike fighter shortfall. You can expect to hear more about it in the near future.&#8221;

However, Adm. Gary Roughead, chief of naval operations, told reporters after today&#8217;s hearing that very few &#8212; half a dozen &#8212; of the grounded planes have shown serious cracks that warrant concern. The grounding, he said, is actually giving the Navy the chance to do more detailed inspections earlier than it had planned. And it should not deter the planned SLEP, he claimed.

The other big story of the hearing was the Navy&#8217;s careful efforts to fend off attacks on the Littoral Combat Ship&#8217;s request for proposal. Sen. Richard Shelby of Alabama, where the aluminum-hulled trimaran LCS is built, criticized the Navy for not taking life cycle costs into consideration and urged Mabus and Roughead to &#8220;amend&#8221; the RFP.

&#8220;A lot of us are concerned that the pending RFP does not appear to take capability and life cycle costs into consideration,&#8221; Shelby said.

Mabus deflected Shelby, saying the Navy &#8220;has a lot of confidence in this RFP. It&#8217;s well written and well designed.&#8221; Asked by a reporter about the chances for a bid protest and how the Navy might handle one, Roughead said &#8220;a protest would be extraordinarily disruptive&#8221; to the service.

DoD Buzz | Pressure Builds for More Hornets; Multi-Year OK Likely


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## jha

*Boeing: willing to license F/A-18 production to Japan*

TOKYO (Reuters) - Boeing Co said it is willing to outsource some production of its F/A-18 Super Hornet fighter planes to Japanese firms if the Japanese government decides to buy them as the country's next mainstay fighter aircraft.

Japan has yet to decide how it will replace its current fleet of aging F-4 Phantom fighters, whose design dates back to the 1960s and which have become increasingly difficult to maintain.

Mitsubishi Heavy Industries is also set to end production of its F-2 aircraft in 2011.

Boeing is prepared to collaborate with Japanese heavy machinery and small parts manufacturers to make F/A-18 Super Hornet jets, Joe Song, Boeing's vice president for defense activities in Asia-Pacific, told Reuters in an interview.

"Final assembly, run and check-out...that's the minimum we can certainly provide. We can discuss other options to help the Japanese fighter industry," he said.

The world's second-largest defense contractor said it would be able to deliver up to 10 Super Hornets to Japan in 2015 if the government decides to buy them this year.

INTERVIEW - Boeing: willing to license F/A-18 production to Japan | Business News | Reuters


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## jha

*Denmark Bails From JSF - Report*

Denmark's defense ministry is ready to recommend designating the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet as its next fighter, in place of the delayed and more expensive F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, according to a report on Danish radio. 

According to the report, the Danish decision has been in the works for some months and currently awaits an auditor's review before being forwarded to the full government and to parliament. The Gripen NG has also been ruled out - not a big surprise to Saab, which has scaled back its campaign in Denmark. 

Uncertainty about the country's choice of the JSF has risen in recent months, in the context of the program's own difficulties and a recent series of major government procurements gone awry: EH101 Merlin helicopters which were sold back to the UK, Sagen Sperwer UAVs deactivated and sold to Canada, and the much delayed IC4 high-speed train project. 

Denmark is also likely to delay both its decision and the delivery date for new fighters, which are expected to enter service in 2017-18. Delays to JSF and the Pentagon's continued consideration of a further multi-year Super Hornet buy mean that the Boeing fighter is more likely to stay in production until then, and extend its retirement date. 

Ares Homepage


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## jha

*India, the New Land of Opportunity for Defense Contractors*

Traditionally a reliable Russian customer, India is also looking further west for its new fighter and attack aircraft; proposals from the U.S., France and Sweden are on the table. The first step of the process is a fly off to make sure the proposed aircraft meet the basic requirements. With domestic sales stalling, the contract with India will be one of the most important of the next ten years.

Lockheed Martin (LMT) has proposed the F-16 while Boeing (BA) has entered the F/A-18 into the competition. Frances Dassualt has its Rafael and Sweden has its SAAB-manufactured Grypen. Russia is proposing an updated version of the venerable MiG-29, known as the MiG-35. Most of these aircraft fall into the same size range and are twin-engined with modern avionics and sophisticated weapon suites. The winner will be a significant upgrade for India from its current mix of MiG-27, 29 and Su-27 aircraft.

India wants to make the first cut by early summer. The plan is to use the fly-off to cull the field; the remaining companies will then submit a financial proposal. The planned budget is about $11 billion for 126 aircraft.

India has signed several deals lately with American and Israeli companies to provide hardware. They have also kept buying Russian equipment such as a planned purchase of MiG fighters for their new aircraft carriers. Two contracts that stand out are the P-8I maritime patrol aircraft from Boeing and an airborne radar and control system (AWACS) from Israel, plus a contract to construct ammunition factories.

The contract reflects two Indian realities. One is its concern about its neighbors - a restive Pakistan and an emboldened China. The other is Indias increasing economic openness. In the past, domestic requirements were so onerous that making a profit was impossible. Joint ventures were difficult to set up and Delhi limited which domestic companies could participate. Not surprisingly, foreign companies were not eager to enter the market. In the last couple of years, though, India has eased its regulations and expanded joint-venture opportunities.

These changes will help India attract better and more proposals which in the long run should reduce costs.

India, the New Land of Opportunity for Defense Contractors | BNET Government Blog | BNET


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## RPK

The Hindu : Front Page : Sweden's Gripens head for AFS Jaisalmer

BANGALORE: Sweden's Gripen NG, the last of the six fighter aircraft that are being evaluated by the Indian Air Force for the $12 billion medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) deal, left Bangalore on Monday morning for the Air Force Station (AFS) Jaisalmer.

Having gone through a week of performance trials &#8212; including a demonstration of air-to-air refuelling and flying manoeuvres &#8212; by the IAF's specifically designated MMRCA team here, two Gripens will now complete the remaining part of their flight tests over Pokhran and Leh before heading for the AFS Jamnagar and then to an air base in Sweden.

While one of the Gripens will undertake hot weather trials in and around the AFS Jaisalmer and later take off to perform a dummy run and bomb drop at the Pokhran test range, the other fighter, as part of the cold weather trials, will land in Leh, switch off, refuel and then take off again.

Ministry of Defence officials familiar with the MMRCA trials told The Hindu that while they expect no hiccups during the weapons drop over Pokhran, the Leh exercise proved challenging to the other contenders vying for the MMRCA deal.

*The officials confided that four of the five aircraft in the MMRCA competition faced problems starting up in the rarefied atmosphere of Leh, and the IAF had to ask the manufacturers to undertake modifications in the aircraft's fuel systems*. The Gripen's evaluation is part of the MMRCA flight trials, which started in August last, when the F/A-18 Hornets arrived here. These were followed by another American fighter, the F-16IN Super Viper. In September, the French Rafale flew over Bangalore. It was followed by Russia's MiG-35 and the European Aeronautic Defence and Space consortium's Eurofighter Typhoon flew in March.

Once the flight trials are completed, the MMRCA evaluation team headed by the Principal Director, Air Staff Requirements, Air Commodore R.K. Dhir will write the technical report, narrowing down the competition to three or four contenders. Thereafter, the commercial bids will be opened, with the lowest bidder &#8212; as per India's defence procurement procedures &#8212; winning the contract.

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## ptldM3

What kind of radar does the LCA use?


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## RPK

the LCA prototype use EL/M-2032

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## jha

that radar is just for the prototype..when inducted it will be having ELTA-2052..


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## sudhir007

jha said:


> that radar is just for the prototype..when inducted it will be having ELTA-2052..



or May be drdo built AESA


> *A 3D Active Phased Array radar for fighters, a MMR follow on, the APAR project aims to field a fully fledged operational AESA fire control radar for the Light Combat Aircraft MK2.* This will be the second airborne AESA program after the AEW&C project and intends to transfer the success DRDO has achieved in the Ground based radar segment to airborne systems. Lack of prior experience in this arena led to the MMR project facing delays and technical challenges. The overall airborne APAR program aims to prevent this technology gap from developing again, with a broad based program to bring DRDO up to par with international developers in airborne systems: both fire control and surveillance. In contrast to the previous MMR program, the AESA project will be led by the DRDO itself and not by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. The AESA fire control radar will be delivered by the 2012-14 timeframe. It is expected that LRDE may tie up with an established radar house to speed up development of sub components.


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## jha

in that case it will be *made in india*...untill it comes out israeli radar can always be used..


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## sancho

jha said:


> in that case it will be *made in india*...untill it comes out israeli radar can always be used..


Not the right thread, but guys, did you forget that IAF was not satisfied with the indigenous AESA radar development and that's why they are searching for a co-development now?

LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence: EXCLUSIVE: AESA Programme For Tejas Scans For Development Partner


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## SSGPA1

forget everything and just give a date - When is India going to decide?


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## KEETARP

rpraveenkum said:


> The Hindu : Front Page : Sweden's Gripens head for AFS Jaisalmer
> 
> BANGALORE: Sweden's Gripen NG, the last of the six fighter aircraft that are being evaluated by the Indian Air Force for the $12 billion medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) deal, left Bangalore on Monday morning for the Air Force Station (AFS) Jaisalmer.
> 
> Having gone through a week of performance trials &#8212; including a demonstration of air-to-air refuelling and flying manoeuvres &#8212; by the IAF's specifically designated MMRCA team here, two Gripens will now complete the remaining part of their flight tests over Pokhran and Leh before heading for the AFS Jamnagar and then to an air base in Sweden.
> 
> While one of the Gripens will undertake hot weather trials in and around the AFS Jaisalmer and later take off to perform a dummy run and bomb drop at the Pokhran test range, the other fighter, as part of the cold weather trials, will land in Leh, switch off, refuel and then take off again.
> 
> Ministry of Defence officials familiar with the MMRCA trials told The Hindu that while they expect no hiccups during the weapons drop over Pokhran, the Leh exercise proved challenging to the other contenders vying for the MMRCA deal.
> 
> *The officials confided that four of the five aircraft in the MMRCA competition faced problems starting up in the rarefied atmosphere of Leh, and the IAF had to ask the manufacturers to undertake modifications in the aircraft's fuel systems*. The Gripen's evaluation is part of the MMRCA flight trials, which started in August last, when the F/A-18 Hornets arrived here. These were followed by another American fighter, the F-16IN Super Viper. In September, the French Rafale flew over Bangalore. It was followed by Russia's MiG-35 and the European Aeronautic Defence and Space consortium's Eurofighter Typhoon flew in March.
> 
> Once the flight trials are completed, the MMRCA evaluation team headed by the Principal Director, Air Staff Requirements, Air Commodore R.K. Dhir will write the technical report, narrowing down the competition to three or four contenders. Thereafter, the commercial bids will be opened, with the lowest bidder &#8212; as per India's defence procurement procedures &#8212; winning the contract.









Except Engine all other system will not be problematic for TOT

All Weapon system of NG


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## karan.1970

SSGPA1 said:


> forget everything and just give a date - When is India going to decide?



In due time .. You should know.. the beaurocracy is more or less same in India and Pakistan...


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## sudhir007

i dnt think it will be Gripen NG arrive. it is Gripen D 2seater which come



> The high-voltage $11 billion contest to sell India 126 Medium Multi-Role Fighter Aircraft (MMRCA) is reaching the end of the trials phase in a blaze of potential controversy. Today, the last of the six contenders being evaluated by the Indian Air Force &#8212; the Swedish Gripen &#8212; will fly into Bangalore for trials. But Business Standard has learnt that the fighters that will touch down are not the ones Gripen International has offered: the JAS-39IN Gripen NG. Instead, two older-model Gripen-D fighters will arrive.
> 
> The Gripen NG, a light, agile, ultra-modern fighter built by Swedish aerospace giant Saab, has always been one of the hottest contenders in the fray. Saab&#8217;s default on the MoD&#8217;s trial directive, which lays down that the fighter being offered must be the one that comes for trials, will delight its rivals &#8212; Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Dassault, Eurofighter and MiG &#8212; since Gripen is now vulnerable to disqualification.
> 
> The arrival of the Gripen-D instead of the Gripen NG has a simple cause: the *Swedish Air Force, having opted to buy the Gripen NG, has ordered a series of improvements on the Gripen NG prototype. With those under way, Sweden&#8217;s flight certification agency, SMV, has ruled that the prototypes require additional flight-testing in Sweden before the aircraft can be sent to India.*
> 
> Confirming these developments, Gripen International&#8217;s Director India Eddy de la *Motte told Business Standard, &#8220;The Gripen NG prototype cannot come just yet to India as it is required in Sweden for testing and evaluation by the Swedish Air Force which is interested in buying the fighter. Indian pilots have not yet flown the Gripen NG, but we will make sure that they get an opportunity at the very earliest.&#8221;*
> 
> Sources close to the Gripen campaign say IAF pilots will be offered a chance to fly the Gripen NG during a visit to Sweden from April 6 to April 10. Gripen International will also ask for fresh dates for bringing the Gripen NG to India for trials.
> 
> *Even without having flown the Gripen NG prototype,* IAF pilots have been extremely impressed by the fighter&#8217;s capabilities. Besides superb avionics and superior flight performance, they say the Gripen NG can land on an 800-metre stretch of highway; and then refuel, rearm and take-off within 10 minutes. This allows each Gripen NG to fly far more sorties per day than any other aircraft today.
> 
> The IAF pilots who have visited the Gripen simulators in Sweden have also been impressed by its electronic warfare capabilities and by the training facilities on offer.
> 
> *The Swedish MoD&#8217;s unexpected refusal to allow the Gripen NG to India for trials *has blown the race wide open. From a clear front-runner in the eyes of the IAF, the Gripen NG&#8217;s very participation in trials now depends upon a decision to be taken by the IAF and the Indian MoD.


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## sancho

LT.PRATEEK said:


> Except Engine all other system will not be problematic for TOT
> 
> All Weapon system of NG



You have to turn it the other way around to understand the dependance of Saab!
Look at the graphic and see how less really is owned, or in control of Saab/Sweden, especially the main parts like engine and radar (which btw is not co-developed, they just integrate the Selsex Galileo AESA).

Also interesting, this is a new graphic for the Brazilian competition and shows, which parts could be made in Brazil. But Saab had the same graphic earlier too, which showed the countries and techs involved, but at that time they had each flag seperate, not only EU flags for all European countries. The fact is, they use parts from UK, GER, FRA, SA, ISR and the US of course. So in terms of ToT, Saab can only offer what these countries allowsto offer.

French Thales was the co-development partner for the Gripen NG Demonstrator AESA radar, till Thales backed out. Some sources say, because Dassault, who owns around 25% of Thales forced them out, to not compete the Rafale in Brazil and India.
Selsex Galileo and the Gov of UK are supporting Saab in Brazil with full ToT and source codes, since the EF is out long ago, but what will happen in MMRCA, when EF and Gripen NG will be shortlisted to the final stage?
Besides the similarity to LCA, the dependance is the biggest problem for the Gripen NG and in terms of ToT they have mainly EWS and data links to offer, which they really own and that is not necessarily something the LCA /our industry could gain from imo.


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## sancho

sudhir007 said:


> i dnt think it will be Gripen NG arrive. it is Gripen D 2seater which come


Which is very disappointing to me, because except of the general design, IAF can't compare its performance with the performance they would get with Gripen NG. No radar, EWS, or engine techs can be tested.
I really am curious about the Gripen performance it the desert trials, with 6,8t empty weight and only 80kN thrust, even our LCA prototypes should be better (5,8t / 85kN).


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## RPK

Ce jeudi deux officiers indiens ont volé sur Rafale...  - capitaine-romain


*This Thursday, two Indian officers have flown in Rafale *

Saturday, 20 March, 2010 

This Thursday, March 18, two Indian officers were able to explore and test by themselves all the qualities of the Rafale.

After a morning briefing the Indian pilot -- very experienced pilot on board a plane just for him - Could take off in his Rafale, intercept and identify a fighterr with optical sighting of Rafale, engage multiple targets air-sourced located beyond the visual range of sight, firing a salvo of AASM -- the new GPS French bomb - Landed on the targets detected and recalls during the mission, before landing ... all in one hour of simulated flight.

The two Indian officers were able to see the realism of the Rafale simulator, using this two-seater flight tested what they had learned in less than a day.

They left the Fighter Squadron 1 / 7 amased by how easy our plane is and gave a smile ...

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## Mahakaya

Guys a lil off topic - But they are showing the making of "TYPHOON" on THE HISTORY CHANNEL NOW!


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## sancho

rpraveenkum said:


> Ce jeudi deux officiers indiens ont volé sur Rafale...  - capitaine-romain
> 
> 
> *This Thursday, two Indian officers have flown in Rafale *
> 
> Saturday, 20 March, 2010
> 
> This Thursday, March 18, two Indian officers were able to explore and test by themselves all the qualities of the Rafale.
> 
> After a morning briefing the Indian pilot -- very experienced pilot on board a plane just for him - Could take off in his Rafale, intercept and identify a fighterr with optical sighting of Rafale, engage multiple targets air-sourced located beyond the visual range of sight, firing a salvo of AASM -- the new GPS French bomb - Landed on the targets detected and recalls during the mission, before landing ... all in one hour of simulated flight.
> 
> The two Indian officers were able to see the realism of the Rafale simulator, using this two-seater flight tested what they had learned in less than a day.
> 
> They left the Fighter Squadron 1 / 7 amased by how easy our plane is and gave a smile ...


Great, that should only add the good view of French fighters in IAF! If it won't be a political decision, I can't see another winner than the Rafale!


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## Dark Angel

sancho said:


> Great, that should only add the good view of French fighters in IAF! If it won't be a political decision, I can't see another winner than the Rafale!





well my man as u have supported rafale with such passion if it gets selected u will have to treat all of us


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## sancho

Dark Angel said:


> well my man as u have supported rafale with such passion if it gets selected u will have to treat all of us


Hehe, you wish!  
I only want the fighter, that is the best choice for India (from all points of view) and if that would be the EF, I would love to see EF in Indian colors, but imo the best choice is Rafale that's all.


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## Raje amar

grate man i love Rafel. Dont know whether our babus in MoD has the similar opinion.


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## Dash

Rafale - Relatively Sasta, sundar aur tikau... can well protect..kapdaa, roti and Makaan for all Indians in times to come!!!


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## MIG_ACE

Four MMRCA contenders fail Leh trials

This should narrow the field down.

My guesses.

Since the Mig-35 is basically a Mig-29 with a new name and I'm sure IAF's Mig-29s have been tested at Leh, the Mig-35 cannot have failed.

Secondly, the LCA did pretty well when they tested it at Leh. The Gripen uses the same engine (atleast the D version they sent to India for the trials. the NG will use the GE-F414 instead of the 404). The Gripen is similar in weight as well to the LCA. So the gRIPEN can't fail either. So they rest have failed.


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## Indian-Devil

Rafael is good option besides its engine is uprated to minimum 85-90kN, Its really a deadly platform which can outperform all the neighbour threats. And there is no issue with TOT, besides french donot repeat the same thing which they did in Scorpene Deal.

India should not settle except Rafael or Typhoon. Chances are more with Rafael except MOD babus get something from Unkle.


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## RadyLeo

*Vendors May Get To Revise Indian Fighter Bids*

NEW DELHI &#8212; As field trials for India&#8217;s 126-aircraft Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) draw to a close, vendors vying for the program could get the opportunity to revise their pricing.

The Saab Gripen is completing its final field trials in Leh, while the Eurofighter is due to start weapons and other equipment tests as part of the third phase of trials in the U.K. and Germany next month. Those trials are scheduled to be completed on April 29.

*However, this would mean that India will have officially missed the April 28 decision deadline set for the competition.Effectively, this means that vendors can now reprice and revise their bids, *since the request for proposals says commercial offers are valid for two years from the date of submission (which was March 28, 2008), and after that date bidding can be reopened for those vendors shortlisted after technical trials and evaluation.

The six bidders are Sukhoi&#8217;s MiG-35, Dassault&#8217;s Rafale, Eurofighter, Saab&#8217;s Gripen, Boeing&#8217;s F/A-18E/F and Lockheed Martin&#8217;s F-16.

Once all trials are completed, it will take two months of tabulation and then submission to the Defense Ministry, an air force spokesman told Aviation Week. One original equipment manufacturer (OEM) says it is likely the procedure would take place only in September.

Some vendors have expressed concern that the MMRCA project will be dependent on the political and economical situation, and may take more time for clearance, barring unforeseen circumstances like a security challenge.

&#8220;We do hope the process moves faster,&#8221; one OEM executive said. &#8220;However, we feel it might take time until India&#8217;s economy starts on a growth track of approximately 10 percent [gross domestic product], so that politicians can justify the expenditure to their political counterparts.&#8221;

While the Ministry has not yet commented on the possibility of repricing, vendors&#8217; opinions on the prospect vary.
*&#8220;We will redefine our bid, which will be cheaper than the one we submitted two years ago, as we were not as smart then as we are now,&#8221; one vendor said, declining to be identified. &#8220;We are more competitive and stronger now.&#8221;*

Another commented, &#8220;Technical evaluation is an air force matter. We will try and ensure we hit all wickets. We haven&#8217;t made a decision on repricing.&#8221; &#8220;This, of course, presupposes that the repricing will be called for,&#8221; another vendor noted.

And another OEM added that currency fluctuation over the past two years will be another factor to consider.


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## hembo

Mahakaya said:


> Guys a lil off topic - But they are showing the making of "TYPHOON" on THE HISTORY CHANNEL NOW!



If it's on the *HISTORY* channel, I think it's better not to go for it as we are looking for a futuristic AC, not a historical one... lol


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## Mahakaya

Hi guys,

I have hypothesis that it will be either Typhoon or Raphale that India will buy. It will be great to have the members' thoughts on this as I understand it is not an air tight argument. Will be great if the more learned ones can share their thoughts so that probably we can build a consensus on which plane could India buy out of the 6 contenders.



Mahakaya said:


> I am not sure carrier based platforms have any bearing on the MMRCA anymore. The reason I say this is because India just ordered a squadron of Mig 29K from Russia and then on Vladmir Putin's visit another order was placed with the Russians for more Mig 29Ks. Further, the navy has already infused 900 crores in the Naval LCA and chances are that the bird will fly by the end of this year. So since we already have made investments in the Naval platforms I don't think the planes with naval variants will have an edge or any bearing on the competition.
> 
> Now at max we can/should not support more than 3 different platforms >>>> if we do>>>>extra costs of training and building the infrastructure. As of now, the implications of the deal with Russians for Mig 29K can have 2 implications:
> 
> 1. We might just go for Mig-35 since we will have the infrastructure ready and training might not be a problem.
> 
> 2. The deal is just to placate the Russians to justify that we will not be going in for the Mig-35 (This is what my gut feeling says)
> 
> If the 2nd scenario is true and in the light of above information if it makes sense (sure does to me cos 4 platforms might be stretching it a bit too much), Mig 35 is out.
> 
> Gripen offers no real geopolitical benefits so Gripen is out too.
> 
> That leaves us with:
> 
> 1. Typhoon
> 2. Raphale
> 3. F-18 SH
> 4. F-16 IN
> 
> I would also take out the F-16s cos of the obvious reasons. On the other hand in the wake of the recent remarks by the Indians on F-16s being supplied to the US, it seems that the USofA has ruffled the feathers of some big wigs in the MoD and the AF, obviously exposing their double standards. So I would also take out the F-18s here.
> 
> That leaves us with two alternatives the Typhoon and Raphale. Now we do have a french platform already running with us - which gives us more confidence in their latest platform. The Typhoon is an amazing bird and I personally want it to win.
> 
> The point by the end of it is:
> 
> It may just be Rphale or Typhoon - but right now there is not enough info to make inferences:
> 
> Typhoon - It might go the typhoon way if we buy the EJ 200 for the Tejas
> 
> Raphale - It might go the Raphale way since we already have a french platform running.
> 
> We actually have 4 platforms right now with the British/French Jags and BAE Harriers but then again if we chose the Raphale then we cut the platforms to 3.
> 
> Indian - Tejas, MCA
> Russian - SU 30 MKI, Mig 29 Ks, Mig 21 Bis, PAKFA/FGFA
> French - Mirage and Raphale
> 
> On the other hand if we chose the Typhoon then we can just take off the Raphale from top and add another platform with Typhoon i.e. 4 platforms in all, which is what we have right now and has worked well so far.
> 
> SO in my opinion it could be a call between the Raphale and the Typhoon with odds favoring the Typhoon.
> 
> Members please feel free to correct me or add more to this!


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## Mahakaya

hembo said:


> If it's on the *HISTORY* channel, I think it's better not to go for it as we are looking for a futuristic AC, not a historical one... lol



HAHAHAHAHAH!

Good one!


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## sancho

MIG_ACE said:


> Four MMRCA contenders fail Leh trials
> 
> This should narrow the field down.
> 
> My guesses.
> 
> Since the Mig-35 is basically a Mig-29 with a new name and I'm sure IAF's Mig-29s have been tested at Leh, the Mig-35 cannot have failed.
> 
> Secondly, the LCA did pretty well when they tested it at Leh. The Gripen uses the same engine (atleast the D version they sent to India for the trials. the NG will use the GE-F414 instead of the 404). The Gripen is similar in weight as well to the LCA. So the gRIPEN can't fail either. So they rest have failed.


First of all, nobody has failed, they just needed some modifications on the fuel system, which should not have anything to do with the T/W ratio. Secondly this was reported before the Gripen started the tests there, so 4 of the 5 contenders, that entered trials before had problems. I agree that the Mig 35 should have past, because it uses only a modernised version of the same RD33 engine that our Mig 29 has.


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## sancho

Mahakaya said:


> I am not sure carrier based platforms have any bearing on the MMRCA anymore. The reason I say this is because India just ordered a squadron of Mig 29K from Russia and then on Vladmir Putin's visit another order was placed with the Russians for more Mig 29Ks. Further, the navy has already infused 900 crores in the Naval LCA and chances are that the bird will fly by the end of this year. So since we already have made investments in the Naval platforms I don't think the planes with naval variants will have an edge or any bearing on the competition.



Hi Mahakaya, the first order of Mig 29K was a combined deal with Gorshkov carrier and we already building our own Vikrant class carrier, which will have the same STOBAR design like Gorshkov, so it is logical that we use the same combo with N-LCA there too. For the limited use in sea control and air defense role, this combo will be capable enough and no costlier N-MMRCA is needed now.
but this will change when the next class of bigger carriers will arrive at the end of the decade, which is aimed on blue water operations far away from Indias costline and if necessary, projecting power to other places. Therefore IN will need a much better combo and where N-MMRCAs could be interesting again.

IN send out an RFI to several vendors to get a better picture about the capabilities of actual and possible carrier fighters and if IAF goes for a fighter that has a good carrier version for IN future carriers too, they could simply add their order and could reduce the costs dramatically.

Regarding MMRCA, imo we can rule out F16IN and Mig 35 for sure, the first gives simply not enough advantages over PAFs F16s, the latter offers nearly nothing new to IAF, that they don't have already through MKI.

The faith of EF will be decided by it's improvementes in the A2G role, because till now it is mainly an air superiority fighter only and IAF don't need the same capabilities that MKI, or FGFA will offer again. So if it offer us advantages in other roles and fields that makes the highest costs worth it, it would be a great addition of course.

IMO the only real options will be Gripen NG as the choice of the finance ministry, because it is the most cost-effective fighter. 

The F18SH as the choice of GoI/MoD, for political and possibly strategic reasons. 

The Rafale as the choice of IAF/IN, because it offers the most advantages in terms of capabilities, commonality to present IAF fleet, independance, customisations and integration of indigenous techs, as well as future potential for IAF and IN.




Mahakaya said:


> The point by the end of it is:
> 
> It may just be Rphale or Typhoon - but right now there is not enough info to make inferences


Maybe this helps:

*EF weapon configs:*

http://www.defence.pk/forums/700461-post114.html


*Rafale weapon configs and capabilities:*

http://www.defence.pk/forums/682636-post1364.html

http://www.defence.pk/forums/682646-post1365.html

http://www.defence.pk/forums/682658-post1366.html

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## RPK

The Hindu : News / National : F-16s offered to India better than Pakistan&rsquo;s: Lockheed Martin

*F-16s offered to India better than Pakistan&#8217;s: Lockheed Martin 
*

American aerospace giant Lockheed Martin on Monday assured India that the F-16s being offered to it would be &#8220;much more advanced&#8221; than the fighters provided to Pakistan.

&#8220;I can assure you, the Super Viper is much more advanced in all aspects than the F-16s being given to Pakistan,&#8221; Lockheed Martin&#8217;s vice-president-Business Development (India) Orville Prins told a group of visiting Indian journalists here.

The assurance comes in the wake of reports that India was concerned over U.S. supplying a new set of F-16s to Pakistan, a decision which could be a crucial geopolitical factor when the Indian Air Force (IAF) decides on the $10 billion Medium Multi-role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) tender, described as &#8216;mother of all deals&#8217;

&#8220;The F-16IN Super Viper will be more advanced than the F-16 Block 60 that were delivered to the UAE recently. The fighter jets being given to Pakistan by the U.S. government are F-16 Block 50/52 aircraft,&#8221; Mr. Prins said here.

However, the official said he would not discuss anything more about the company&#8217;s dealings with Pakistan, except the fact that it was not the firm that was selling anything to any country, but was just partnering with the U.S. Air Force.

&#8220;We don&#8217;t sell, the U.S. government does. We only support the U.S. government&#8217;s decisions,&#8221; he said when queried about the U.S. military support to Pakistan in the form of a set of 18 new F-16 fighters.

In fact, Mr. Prins tried to defend the military sale of his company&#8217;s fighter jets to Pakistan despite India&#8217;s protest, saying it was not just Lockheed Martin that was supplying to Islamabad, but all the six contenders in the MMRCA race were, either directly or indirectly.

Other bidders in the MMRCA deal were U.S.&#8217; Boeing, French D&#8217;Assault, Swedish Gripen, European consortium EADS, and Russian MiG.

The programme to deliver 18 F-16s to Pakistan, named as &#8216;Peace Drive I&#8217;, will raise the total number of F-16s ordered by Pakistan to 54.

The &#8216;Peace Drive I&#8217; order is for 12 F-16Cs and six F-16Ds, all powered by the Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-229 engine and these would be delivered by end of 2010.

The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) had received its first F-16 in the Block 15 F-16A/B configuration in 1982, but it has been operating Lockheed Martin aircraft since 1963, when it received C-130B transport aircraft.

Block 50/52 is the eighth major modification block of the F-16. The Block 50/52 improvements &#8212; more powerful engine, colour cockpit displays, new electronic warfare suite, advanced weapons and sensors - are the direct result of combat experience.

The Block 60 F-16, supplied to UAE recently, has a host of new systems that keep the fighter on the leading edge of technology.

Conformal fuel tanks significantly extend the aircraft&#8217;s range with new, more advanced flight controls and radar detection capabilities, all-new avionics giving the pilots more sensor data and improved situational awareness.

The F-16IN Super Viper, on the other hand, will share fifth generation technologies that are currently available on the F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter and the F-22 Raptor, both Lockheed Martin products.

&#8220;The Super Viper could be described as the ultimate fourth generation fighter, tailored exclusively to meet or exceed all of India&#8217;s MMRCA requirements,&#8221; Mr. Prins said.

The Super Viper would have Northrop Grumman&#8217;s APG-80 Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) Radar, the only operational AESA in the international market today.

&#8220;This revolutionary all-weather, precision targeting sensor has been exported by the United States government and is defending a sovereign nation today; no other MMRCA competitor can make that claim,&#8221; he added.

The APG-80 AESA radar would provide outstanding situational awareness and detection; ultrahigh-resolution synthetic aperture radar mapping, fully interleaved modes of operations with automatic terrain following; and air-to-air tracking of multiple targets.

The F-16IN would be powered by the highest thrust engine in the competition, the General Electric F110-132A, with 32,000-pound thrust and incorporates latest technology, including full authority digital engine control, for maximum fuel efficiency and performance.


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## prithwidw

*Dallas:* *American aerospace giant Lockheed Martin today assured India that the F-16s being offered to it would be "much more advanced" than the fighters provided to Pakistan.*

"*I can assure you, the Super Viper is much more advanced in all aspects than the F-16s being given to Pakistan*," Lockheed Martin's Vice President-Business Development (India) Orville Prins told a group of visiting Indian journalists here.

The assurance comes in the wake of reports that India was concerned over US supplying a new set of F-16s to Pakistan, a decision which could be a crucial geopolitical factor when the Indian Air Force (IAF) decides on the USD 10 billion Medium Multi-role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) tender, described as 'mother of all deals'.

"*The F-16IN Super Viper will be more advanced than the F-16 Block 60 that were delivered to the UAE recently.
*"
Indian F-16s will be 'superior' to Pak's: Lockheed -  National News ? News ? MSN India


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## Join

So???? That dosent give us any edge over pakistan If we have F-16, they know that aircraft much better than we do... Anways India would not want F-16 or F-18, when We have Euro fighter typhoon and MIG-35 which are even better and cheaper


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## prithwidw

Join said:


> So???? That dosent give us any edge over pakistan If we have F-16, they know that aircraft much better than we do... Anways India would not want F-16 or F-18, when We have Euro fighter typhoon and MIG-35 which are even better and cheaper



Yeah right. But I am so confused. What do US Defence companies actually want?

My guess is Lockheed martin knows that they are out of the race by now.


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## prithwidw

American aerospace giant Lockheed Martin on Monday assured India that the F-16s being offered to it would be "much more advanced" than the fighters provided to Pakistan.

"I can assure you, the Super Viper is much more advanced in all aspects than the F-16s being given to Pakistan," Lockheed Martin's Vice President-Business Development (India) Orville Prins told a group of visiting Indian media persons in Dallas.

The assurance comes in the wake of reports that India was concerned over US supplying a new set of F-16s to Pakistan, a decision that could be a crucial geopolitical factor when the Indian Air Force (IAF) decides on the $10 billion Medium Multi-role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) tender, described as 'mother of all deals'.

"The F-16IN Super Viper will be more advanced than the F-16 Block 60 that were delivered to the UAE recently. The fighter jets being given to Pakistan by the US government are F-16 Block 50/52 aircraft," Prins said in Dallas. 

However, the official said he would not discuss anything more about the company's dealings with Pakistan, except the fact that it was not the firm that was selling anything to any country, but was just partnering with the US Air Force [ Images ].

"We don't sell, the US government does. We only support the US government's decisions," he said when queried about the US military support to Pakistan in the form of a set of 18 new F-16 fighters.

In fact, Prins tried to defend the military sale of his company's fighter jets to Pakistan despite India's protest, saying it was not just Lockheed Martin that was supplying to Islamabad, but all the six contenders in the MMRCA race were, either directly or indirectly.

Other bidders in the MMRCA deal were US' Boeing, French D'Assault, Swedish Gripen, European consortium EADS, and Russian MiG.

The programme to deliver 18 F-16s to Pakistan, named as 'Peace Drive I', will raise the total number of F-16s ordered by Pakistan to 54.

The 'Peace Drive I' order is for 12 F-16Cs and six F-16Ds, all powered by the Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-229 engine and these would be delivered by end of 2010.

Pakistan Air Force (PAF) had received its first F-16 in the Block 15 F-16A/B configuration in 1982, but it has been operating Lockheed Martin aircraft since 1963, when it received C-130B transport aircraft.

Block 50/52 is the eighth major modification block of the F-16. The Block 50/52 improvements -- more powerful engine, colour cockpit displays, new electronic warfare suite, advanced weapons and sensors -- are the direct result of combat experience.

The Block 60 F-16, supplied to UAE recently, has a host of new systems that keep the fighter on the leading edge of technology.

Conformal fuel tanks significantly extend the aircraft's range with new, more advanced flight controls and radar detection capabilities, all-new avionics giving the pilots more sensor data and improved situational awareness.

The F-16IN Super Viper, on the other hand, will share fifth generation technologies that are currently available on the F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter and the F-22 Raptor, both Lockheed Martin products.

"The Super Viper could be described as the ultimate fourth generation fighter, tailored exclusively to meet or exceed all of India's MMRCA requirements," Prins said.

The Super Viper would have Northrop Grumman's APG-80 Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) Radar, the only operational AESA in the international market today.

"This revolutionary all-weather, precision targeting sensor has been exported by the United States government and is defending a sovereign nation today; no other MMRCA competitor can make that claim," he added.

The APG-80 AESA radar would provide outstanding situational awareness and detection; ultrahigh-resolution synthetic aperture radar mapping, fully interleaved modes of operations with automatic terrain following; and air-to-air tracking of multiple targets.

The F-16IN would be powered by the highest thrust engine in the competition, the General Electric F110-132A, with 32,000-pound thrust and incorporates latest technology, including full authority digital engine control, for maximum fuel efficiency and performance.

US offers India F-16s more advanced than Pak's: Rediff.com India News


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## Machoman

American aerospace giant Lockheed Martin on Monday assured India that the F-16s being offered to it would be "much more advanced" than the fighters provided to Pakistan. 

"I can assure you, the Super Viper is much more advanced in all aspects than the F-16s being given to Pakistan," Lockheed Martin's Vice President-Business Development (India) Orville Prins told a group of visiting Indian journalists here. 

The assurance comes in the wake of reports that India was concerned over US supplying a new set of F-16s to Pakistan, a decision which could be a crucial geopolitical factor when the Indian Air Force (IAF) decides on the USD 10 billion Medium Multi-role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) tender, described as 'mother of all deals'. 

"The F-16IN Super Viper will be more advanced than the F-16 Block 60 that were delivered to the UAE recently. The fighter jets being given to Pakistan by the US government are F-16 Block 50/52 aircraft," Prins said here. 

However, the official said he would not discuss anything more about the company's dealings with Pakistan, except the fact that it was not the firm that was selling anything to any country, but was just partnering with the US Air Force. 

"We don't sell, the US government does. We only support the US government's decisions," he said when queried about the US military support to Pakistan in the form of a set of 18 new F-16 fighters. 

In fact, Prins tried to defend the military sale of his company's fighter jets to Pakistan despite India's protest, saying it was not just Lockheed Martin that was supplying to Islamabad, but all the six contenders in the MMRCA race were, either directly or indirectly. 

Other bidders in the MMRCA deal were US' Boeing, French D'Assault, Swedish Gripen, European consortium EADS, and Russian MiG. 

The programme to deliver 18 F-16s to Pakistan, named as 'Peace Drive I', will raise the total number of F-16s ordered by Pakistan to 54. 

The 'Peace Drive I' order is for 12 F-16Cs and six F-16Ds, all powered by the Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-229 engine and these would be delivered by end of 2010. 

Pakistan Air Force (PAF) had received its first F-16 in the Block 15 F-16A/B configuration in 1982, but it has been operating Lockheed Martin aircraft since 1963, when it received C-130B transport aircraft. 

Block 50/52 is the eighth major modification block of the F-16. The Block 50/52 improvements - more powerful engine, colour cockpit displays, new electronic warfare suite, advanced weapons and sensors - are the direct result of combat experience. 

The Block 60 F-16, supplied to UAE recently, has a host of new systems that keep the fighter on the leading edge of technology. 

Conformal fuel tanks significantly extend the aircraft's range with new, more advanced flight controls and radar detection capabilities, all-new avionics giving the pilots more sensor data and improved situational awareness. 

The F-16IN Super Viper, on the other hand, will share fifth generation technologies that are currently available on the F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter and the F-22 Raptor, both Lockheed Martin products. 

"The Super Viper could be described as the ultimate fourth generation fighter, tailored exclusively to meet or exceed all of India's MMRCA requirements," Prins said. 

The Super Viper would have Northrop Grumman's APG-80 Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) Radar, the only operational AESA in the international market today. 

"This revolutionary all-weather, precision targeting sensor has been exported by the United States government and is defending a sovereign nation today; no other MMRCA competitor can make that claim," he added. 

The APG-80 AESA radar would provide outstanding situational awareness and detection; ultrahigh-resolution synthetic aperture radar mapping, fully interleaved modes of operations with automatic terrain following; and air-to-air tracking of multiple targets. 

The F-16IN would be powered by the highest thrust engine in the competition, the General Electric F110-132A, with 32,000-pound thrust and incorporates latest technology, including full authority digital engine control, for maximum fuel efficiency and performance.


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## Machoman

hmm


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## EagleEyes

India will not select F-16 when it can get Eurofighter, Rafale..in the end it is likely to end up with a Russian fighter because it will come cheap.


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## PlanetWarrior

People will say anything to sell a product today


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## ashisbutt

PlanetWarrior said:


> People will say anything to sell a product today


not only today!!


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## Kompromat

Indeed it would be an advanced variant of the same air craft but the fact that PAF has been Flying this Fighter for over 30 Years wont let india buy this Air Craft.

The Bottom line is that Yanks will say anything to sell their Products as its a marketing strategy.

To me Viper and Mig is out and there are greater chances of Super Hornet and Typhoon.

Regards:

Block 52+













Block 60.






Block 70 offered to India.




Point out any Major air Frame difference !!!


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## Kompromat

Central dorsal spine in Block 70 is Missing and apart from that i do not see any Air Frame changes but it would have advanced Avionics and EW suite.


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## Renegade

WebMaster said:


> India will not select F-16 when it can get Eurofighter, Rafale..*in the end it is likely to end up with a Russian fighter because it will come cheap*.



10 billion $ is not cheap dude, its more than the entire Aid given by the US to Pakistan in the last 5 years!!

Mig-35 will not win. One of the major points that goes against it is, i.e not operational with the Russian Air Force while the other fighters are proven war horses.


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## graphican

Renegade said:


> 10 billion $ is not cheap dude, its more than the entire Aid given by the US to Pakistan in the last 5 years!!
> 
> Mig-35 will not win. One of the major points that goes against it is, i.e not operational with the Russian Air Force while the other fighters are proven war horses.



Euro-fighter is the best choice considering the Indian requirements. BUT having said that, I would say its not the abilities of fighter plane alone but Geo-Politics is going to play a big role and probably the predominant role in the case of MMRCA which has been reason for India to wait and let contending players add more and more weight to their deal.


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## Storm Force

I get the impression Some people are hoping and preying that India selects the MIG35 believiing it to be the most tech inferior in the race. 

The Indians will do their home work. Make no mistake about that. 

If in doubt just check the CUSTOMISED FLANKER that INDIA HAD BUILT exclusively for them the SU30MKI. 

Has for MMRCA i here that BOTH F18S/H and Typhoons have ticked the most boxes. 

As for CHEAP i don,t think INDIA buys anything CHEAP these days. 

Phalcon AWACS at $400M EACH wen far cheaper options available

Scorpene subs frm France at $500m wen AGOSTAS cost just $300m each frm same supplier

Gorskhav carrier $2.3 billion started at just $900m 

MMRCA will go over $13 billion easily BUT INDIA has the dollars no problem


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## letsbefriends

i will go for 100 mig 35's n100 eurofighters.splitting the order between vendors will make sense becoz it will ensure early procurement..we can MKI's he mig 35...by purchasing mig's russia is offering complete TOT and also development partnership hence we can sell it to third countries and make profit and also with the 3D TVC factor coming in,it will be d best maneuvorable plane nad will be great in dogfight,with eurofighter we can have the EJ 200 engine with crystal blade tech which will be helpful for our tejas mk 2..and i m sure dat we will procure more dan 126 fighters..apart from dat lets see what happens..


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## sancho

letsbefriends said:


> i will go for 100 mig 35's n100 eurofighters.splitting the order between vendors will make sense becoz it will ensure early procurement..we can MKI's he mig 35...by purchasing mig's russia is offering complete TOT and also development partnership hence we can sell it to third countries and make profit and also with the 3D TVC factor coming in,it will be d best maneuvorable plane nad will be great in dogfight,with eurofighter we can have the EJ 200 engine with crystal blade tech which will be helpful for our tejas mk 2..and i m sure dat we will procure more dan 126 fighters..apart from dat lets see what happens..


Hi letsbefriends, no offense, but it's actually the complete opposite of your post. 

1. EF and Mig 35 are similar fighters mainly for air superiority with the same advantages like maneuverability..., but the same disadvantages in A2G also, so this combo is more than unlikely.

2. Both fighters are delayed in development and are bad choices if the aim is fast procurment. Mig stated that the production might only begin by 2013, or later, the EF will get the first AESA radar version at the same time, operational versions possibly 2015 only! 

3. MoD alrady stated that the deal will go only at a single vendor, so no split anyway.

4. Not Mig had offered a partnership, but the EF consortium. Mig is only an upgraded version of an old design, so there is no development to team up with. Also sales are more than unlikely, because not even Russia will buy them.
The partnership for EF is only a minor partnership in production, not an equal one and we won't have anything to say in the consortium.

5. EJ 200 engines with ToT is offered delinked of the MMRCA competition, so we can get the engine also without taking the EF.

You are new here so maybe you should go a bit more through this thread here, all these points was posted and discussed before.

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## sancho

Are these really pics of the final Mig 35? In the forum where I found these they say, that these are only slightly modified (bigger nose for AESA for example) versions of the Mig 29K/KUB:


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## sancho

New twin seat?

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## baker

i have a doubt proffesionals.......
when i gothrough the wiki for each of these beautiful birds.... 
Mig-35---status is *still in development *and total number built is less than 10 , if we finalise mig-35 by end of year when we will get these 126 birds...?

and similiarly for Dassalut rafale and eurofighter typhoon the production rate is slow and i think they will take min of 3 years to deliver the 126 numbers right..?


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## Raje amar

baker said:


> i have a doubt proffesionals.......
> when i gothrough the wiki for each of these beautiful birds....
> Mig-35---status is *still in development *and total number built is less than 10 , if we finalise mig-35 by end of year when we will get these 126 birds...?
> 
> and similiarly for Dassalut rafale and eurofighter typhoon the production rate is slow and i think they will take min of 3 years to deliver the 126 numbers right..?



Guys we are definately not going for Mig as well as F 16,
Rate of production in Eurofighter is less due to all the partenaring countries want a Treanch 3 upgraded Fighter which is under development right now.
and for Rafale it cant win a single export order till date... even the UAE deal is in trouble....
i hope we choose Rafale..start manufacturing it in India & also get a sweet deal with France so that we can export it from India ( though in my dreams)


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## Trichy

baker said:


> i have a doubt proffesionals.......
> when i gothrough the wiki for each of these beautiful birds....
> Mig-35---status is *still in development *and total number built is less than 10 , if we finalise mig-35 by end of year when we will get these 126 birds...?
> 
> and similiarly for Dassalut rafale and eurofighter typhoon the production rate is slow and i think they will take min of 3 years to deliver the 126 numbers right..?



hi 126 is not possible in 3 years, and also only 18 will be coming in flyaway condition rest will be produced in India only


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## baker

Trichy said:


> hi 126 is not possible in 3 years, and also only 18 will be coming in flyaway condition rest will be produced in India only



if that is the case complete TOT should be allowed right...?
but still i didnt read anywhere regarding the TOT for all MMRCA contentenders...


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## Trichy

baker said:


> if that is the case complete TOT should be allowed right...?
> but still i didnt read anywhere regarding the TOT for all MMRCA contentenders...



in Indian requirement issued they ask min 50% TOT only,

Russia - 100 % Accepted
France - 100 % Accepted
EU - 100 % Accepted with partnership
Sweden - 100 % Accepted with partnership
USA - 60-70 % Accepted

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## sudhir007

*US military aid to Pak matter of concern: Air chief - India - The Times of India*

NEW DELHI: The US military aid to Pakistan is a matter of concern for India which has been conveyed to the Obama administration, Air Chief Marshal P V Naik said on Tuesday.

"The aid being given to Pakistan is a matter of concern to us definitely and we have made it known. We have not hidden anything," Naik said soon after taking over as the Chairman, Chiefs of Staffs Committee here.

The US has been providing F-16 combat jets, air-to-air missiles and other equipment worth millions of dollars to Pakistan as military aid for fighting the Taliban terrorists on its soil. Pakistan is scheduled to get 18 of the Block 52 F-16s, Oliver Hazard Perry Class frigate by winter and is expected to receive Shadow Drones within a year.

*Islamabad is also to receive equipment capable of converting 1,000 traditional munitions into "smart bombs" that can strike targets with precisions.*

*In the last three years, the US has provided 14 F-16s, five fast patrol boats, 115 self-propelled howitzer field artillery cannons, more than 450 vehicles, hundreds of night- vision goggles, day and night scopes, radios, protective vests and first aid items to Pakistan's security forces.
*
*With this new arms aid, US counterinsurgency assistance fund for Pakistan is slated to increase to USD 1.2 billion in fiscal year 2011 from $700 million in the current fiscal.*

India has asked the US to ensure that the weapons supplied to Pakistan to fight Taliban and extremists elements are not directed against this country.

Asked if the military aid issue could have any impact on the chances of the American companies in the fray to supply 126 combat aircraft to the Indian Air Force, Naik said, "As far as 126 multi-role combat aircraft deal is concerned, it will be a fair and square assessment... presently, there is no connection between the two."

He said the IAF was going ahead with the trials of the six companies offering their aircraft and "after that, we will sit down to finalise it (the award of the contract.)"

On reports that the IAF was developing its air fields in the Eastern sector to counter the Chinese threat, the IAF chief said the upgrade of infrastructure in the region was "long overdue" but was not "country specific." He added the air fields were being upgraded to operate the latest modern aircraft in the IAF inventory.

Asked if the recent test-firings of the Agni, Prithvi and Dhanush ballistic missiles were aimed at sending out a message, Naik said, "Whenever we have to give a message to anybody, we give it loud and clear. Whenever there is a message to be given, we will let you know."


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## sancho

Trichy said:


> in Indian requirement issued they ask min 50% TOT only,
> 
> Russia - 100 % Accepted
> France - 100 % Accepted
> EU - 100 % Accepted with partnership
> *Sweden - 100 % Accepted with partnership
> USA - 60-70 % Accepted*


Doubtfull, once because 60-70% would be more then we request, but not a single report that I saw regarding US fighters would prove that. Saab is too dependent on others to be able to provide that much ToT, because none of the main parts are theirs. For example it is more than doubtful that the US will clear full ToT of the GE 414 engine of the Gripen NG. Radar could be a problem too, if EF will be shortlisted for the final stage.
Imo they might be able to provide 50 - 70% if they get radar ToT too, US fighters will hardly offer those 50%.


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## Marxist

*Assessment of MMRCA trials will be fair, says IAF Chief *

NEW DELHI: The Indian Air Force on Tuesday emphasised that its assessment of the *ongoing trials for 126 Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) will be fair and not influenced by the decision of the U.S. to supply F16 fighter aircraft to Pakistan.*

&#8220;It will be a fair and square assessment. The trials for the MMRCA will conclude by April end and we will take a decision only later. As of now, I do not feel there is any connection [Lockheed Martin selling F16 to Pakistan],&#8221; Air Chief Pradeep Vasant Naik said here, in an interaction with correspondents after taking over as the Chairman, Chiefs of Staff Committee (COSC).

At a brief ceremony in the South Block, the Chief of Army Staff General Deepak Kapoor, who retires from service on Wednesday, handed over the baton signalling the change of guard. Lieutenant General V.K. Singh is to take office as Army Chief on Wednesday.

Besides American Lockheed Martin and Boeing (F-18/A Super Hornet), four other companies, European Consortium EADS (Typhoon) Swedish SAAB (Grippen), French Dassault (Rafale) and Russian (MiG35), are competing for the $10.2 billion contract.

The Air Chief said a decision on flying the MiG27 attack aircraft, grounded since a February 16 crash, will be taken after completing checks on its engine. However, the trainer version equipped with a different engine is flying, he said. The IAF has some 100 MiG27 deployed in the Western and Eastern sectors.

The tri-services, he said, are perusing the Delhi High Court's decision that women be granted permanent commission. He said it had both legal and financial implications and any move to challenge it would be taken in consultation with the government.

Having assumed charge as Chairman, COSC, the Air Chief said the Indian armed forces are moulding existing and emerging concepts together, to develop capabilities and solutions that will directly benefit the Armed Forces and the joint war fighter of tomorrow.

Air Chief Marshal Naik said that as a concept he favoured the creation of Chief of Defence Staff, a decision pending for a decade. However, he said the country would have to study different models and choose the one most suitable for its requirement.

In his farewell address, General Kapoor said a cohesive approach to harness the strength of each individual service and synergy of its capabilities was the need of the hour.

http://www.thehindu.com/2010/03/31/stories/2010033164441400.htm


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## Trichy

sancho said:


> Doubtfull, once because 60-70% would be more then we request, but not a single report that I saw regarding US fighters would prove that. Saab is too dependent on others to be able to provide that much ToT, because none of the main parts are theirs. For example it is more than doubtful that the US will clear full ToT of the GE 414 engine of the Gripen NG. Radar could be a problem too, if EF will be shortlisted for the final stage.
> Imo they might be able to provide 50 - 70% if they get radar ToT too, US fighters will hardly offer those 50%.



sorry i missed one point regards Gripen NG, It gives Full TOT while USA, BAE Systems cleared the sale....


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## Vinashi_JagjitSinghArora

I think Single engined and MIG-35 is not a viable choice now, Its EF or Rafale or F-18 IAF will go for!


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## booo

Vinashi_JagjitSinghArora said:


> I think *Single engined and MIG-35* is not a viable choice now, Its EF or Rafale or F-18 IAF will go for!


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## letsbefriends

sancho said:


> Hi letsbefriends, no offense, but it's actually the complete opposite of your post.
> 
> 1. EF and Mig 35 are similar fighters mainly for air superiority with the same advantages like maneuverability..., but the same disadvantages in A2G also, so this combo is more than unlikely.
> 
> 2. Both fighters are delayed in development and are bad choices if the aim is fast procurment. Mig stated that the production might only begin by 2013, or later, the EF will get the first AESA radar version at the same time, operational versions possibly 2015 only!
> 
> 3. MoD alrady stated that the deal will go only at a single vendor, so no split anyway.
> 
> 
> hey sancho thanks for the update though but i wud also say littlr bit to back myself on mig...if mig 35 is anywhere close to mig 29 k which the navy has ordered it has considerable ground attack capability
> 
> 2)typhoon is not delayed in development..may be for tranche 3 which will be a complete multirole fighter..check on the no .of orders it has got thru out the world.arguably the best aircraft after the f-22's
> 
> 3)in splitting the orders we may be able to get quick solution to depleting no. problems nd even if the line of mig 35 cannot be started till 2013 we r only buying 18 off the shelf,rest we have to make ourselves.
> 
> i read a article recently which states dat mig willl give us complete tot and aso joint development and production rights in order to sell it to third countries..that will be a great boost to our defence industry..and
> 
> 
> the other condenders r all upgraded versions of already existing planes neither f16 or f 18 or gripen or mig 35,may be we can say that rafale and typhoon r a little different and by doing dat we can keep the asmericans and thr end user agreements away so dat in war time we dont have to take permission from them abt whr to use our equipment,,
> 
> no offences though neither does urs or my views matters to the eventual decision maker though whatever we buy i m happy unless it is non american.


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## Vinashi_JagjitSinghArora

booo said:


>



 Are you Drunk Buddy?


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## KEETARP

booo said:


>



Boo 
what he actually meant was Single engined jets and Mig-35 have no chance .
I can see what you understood and humorous part of it.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Vinashi_JagjitSinghArora

LT.PRATEEK said:


> Boo
> what he actually meant was Single engined jets and Mig-35 have no chance .
> I can see what you understood and humorous part of it.
> 
> Anyways i dont expect any Indian member to be such dumb to write something like single engined Mig35, we are most intelligent lot and what we write is not B.S




"EgJaKeTaLy" Prateek bro! 

From Next time I will be more articulate!! Because, I don't want fellow Indians breaking their heads into two.


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## SSGPA1

_*oiy sab kuch choro, ye batow ke faisla kab ker rtahey hu??*_


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## Vinashi_JagjitSinghArora

SSGPA1 said:


> _*oiy sab kuch choro, ye batow ke faisla kab ker rtahey hu??*_



Arey aap April tak ruk Jao, Itna utawlapan atcha nahi hoto, don't worry we will get the the results in last week of April!! we will make u happy soon!


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## gurjot

*oiy sab kuch choro, ye batow ke faisla kab ker rtahey hu??*
pehla ac aap ko hi dedenge,tension na lo yaar


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## KS

I may be wrong.....but i think only* rafale* nd to a lesser extent the F-18 gives the biggest bang for the buck ..(both in terms of political nd military advantage)


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## sancho

letsbefriends said:


> hey sancho thanks for the update though but i wud also say littlr bit to back myself on mig...if mig 35 is anywhere close to mig 29 k which the navy has ordered it has considerable ground attack capability


The pics of Mig 35 that I posted recently even shows that the Mig 35 seems to be just a landbased version of the Mig 29K and the Russians don't develop a real new airframe for it. Regarding ground attack capabilities, I think that depends on what you see as considerable.
A payload of around 6t on 9 weapon stations only (one will be occupied by the targeting pod), some stand off missiles, but only 500 Kg KAB bombs cleared so far is very limited imo, especially in comparison with the US fighters, their weapon packs as well as the Rafale and its capabilities in this field. 
The Mig 29K was a fast, cheap and partly even forced deal, which will serve the need of IN at the moment, but it is not comparable with carrier fighters like F18Sh, or Rafale. IAF has even more options which can outclass the Mig, so the chances are even lower here.




letsbefriends said:


> 2)typhoon is not delayed in development..may be for tranche 3 which will be a complete multirole fighter..check on the no .of orders it has got thru out the world.arguably the best aircraft after the f-22's


Actually there are only to export orders for the EF (Austria and Saudi Arabia), with a total number of 89 fighters, all other EFs will only be produced for the consortium members and there is a reason why it was out of several competitions very early, because it is behind in development and wasn't comparable in multi role capabilities yet. 
No doubt about that, in A2A it is at the moment the best fighter behind the F22, but we are not looking for another air superiority fighter, we need real multi role fighters.



letsbefriends said:


> 3)in splitting the orders we may be able to get quick solution to depleting no. problems nd even if the line of mig 35 cannot be started till 2013 we r only buying 18 off the shelf,rest we have to make ourselves.


If they can't even start the production by then, how do you expect us to build it under licence? Only if they start the production line, they can show us how to do it in India too and especially the radar will need some more time to be mature and ready for serial production.



letsbefriends said:


> i read a article recently which states dat mig willl give us complete tot and aso joint development and production rights in order to sell it to third countries..that will be a great boost to our defence industry


As I said, there is no development to join anymore and it's export chances are very low. The time of this Mig is over, that's why not even Russia don't buys them, Russian navy buys less Mig 29K the IN, which says much about it don't you think?


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## sudhir007

may be it will impact mrca deal and also engine selection on lca


> *Press Releases - HTTP/1.0*
> Green Hornet to take flight on Earth Day
> The Navy will demonstrate the 'Green Hornet,' an F/A-18 Super Hornet powered by a 50/50 biofuel blend, on Earth Day, April 22, at Naval Air Station Patuxent River, Md., as part of its Energy Strategy.
> 
> Secretary of the Navy Ray Mabus has made energy independence a top priority for the Department of the Navy (DoN), and the 'Green Hornet' flight is an important step in the certification and ultimate operational use of biofuels by the Navy and Marine Corps.
> 
> The 'Green Hornet' initiative supports Mabus' energy reform targets, which will increase warfighting capability by reducing reliance on fossil fuels from unstable locations and reducing volatility associated with long fuel supply transport lines. The secretary's energy reform targets include:
> 
> - By 2016, the Navy will sail a "Great Green Fleet" composed of nuclear ships, surface combatants with hybrid electric power systems using biofuel and aircraft flying on only biofuels.
> 
> - By 2020, at least half of the DoN's shore-based energy requirements will come from alternative sources and half of total DoN energy consumption will come from alternative sources.
> 
> "[The flight] will demonstrate that our systems can work on biofuel," Mabus said in his remarks at a recent energy forum at the Johns Hopkins Applied Physics Lab in Laurel, Md. "After it is successful, and we are absolutely confident that it will be; we will move to expand biofuel testing to our marine gas turbine engines and to the engines of our tactical vehicles."
> 
> The biofuel blend to be used in the Super Hornet is derived from the camelina sativa plant, which is a U.S.-grown, renewable, non-food source. The objective of the Navy's biofuel test flight program is to confirm there is no difference in performance between the biofuel blend derived from the camelina plant and standard petroleum-based JP-5. The Navy's ultimate goal is to develop protocols to certify alternative fuels for use in Naval Tactical systems.
> 
> The Navy Fuels Lab at NAVAIR Patuxent River, Md., will develop certification requirements for a variety of biofuel sources, including chemical properties, material compatibility, component and propulsion system performance and weapon system performance.
> 
> The Defense Energy Support Center, which oversees procurement of biofuel for the Navy, recently awarded a $2.7 million contract to Sustainable Oils of Seattle and Bozeman, Mont. for 40,000 gallons of the camelina-based fuel.
> 
> Mabus, as well as energy and environmental leaders from throughout the Department of the Navy, are scheduled be in attendance at the Earth Day flight demonstration. Distinguished visitors will have technical briefs and a tour before the flight demonstration, and will meet the aircraft's pilot immediately after.
> 
> "We are a better Navy and a better Marine Corps for innovation; we have led the world in the adoption of new energy strategies in the past," Mabus said at the Naval Energy Forum last year, when he announced his energy reform targets. "This is our legacy."
> 
> Green Hornet is an environmental and energy concept that reaches beyond the element of alternative fuels and encompasses efforts ranging from operational and policy through technology research and development. Examples of these efforts range from more energy efficient aircraft refueling policies implemented by the fleet at the Navy's master jet bases, to ongoing research and development efforts by NAVAIR and General Electric to evaluate more fuel efficient engine components. These engine improvements will be designed to reduce the Specific Fuel Consumption (SFC) for the F414 (F/A-18E/F Super Hornet) engine. The Super Hornet is Naval Aviation's largest fuel consumer.


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## sancho

sudhir007 said:


> may be it will impact mrca deal and also engine selection on lca



That's an interesting point, but will these improvement be available on any GE 414, or only on later improved versions? If on any, the Gripen NG would offer the same advantage, if only on later improved engines, it might come too late for MMRCA or?


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## sudhir007

sancho said:


> That's an interesting point, but will these improvement be available on any GE 414, or only on later improved versions? If on any, the Gripen NG would offer the same advantage, if only on later improved engines, it might come too late for MMRCA or?


NG is still in testing mode it is not come to the trial how will you are see it will will the mrca contact with that verson which they are offering us it not completed. In the case of mig-35 we can see though our eyes that how it look like in real world. but in the case of gripen her on Government dnt allow them to come at field trail. 
and Also how will IAF Analise their performance on the basis of Gripen-D the twin seater which come at field trail


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## sancho

sudhir007 said:


> NG is still in testing mode it is not come to the trial how will you are see it will will the mrca contact with that verson which they are offering us it not completed. In the case of mig-35 we can see though our eyes that how it look like in real world. but in the case of gripen her on Government dnt also them to come at field trail.
> and Also how will IAF Analise their performance on the basis of Gripen-D the twin seater which come at field trail


I also doubt that Gripen NG will be chosen, all I said was, it uses the same engine, so these advantages might be available with it too and not only with the F18SH.


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## KEETARP

sudhir007 said:


> NG is still in testing mode it is not come to the trial how will you are see it will will the mrca contact with that verson which they are offering us it not completed. In the case of mig-35 we can see though our eyes that how it look like in real world. but in the case of gripen her on Government dnt also them to come at field trail.
> and Also how will IAF Analise their performance on the basis of Gripen-D the twin seater which come at field trail



This piece of information will set this thread buzzing for sure.

*The Gripen Ds did sensationally in their tests when they were in India recently. The D restarted and took off from Leh with a loadout of 2.6 tonnes which included air to air missiles and underwing fuel tanks. The heat test went off very well in Jaisalmer. It meant placing the aircraft in the sun for a designated period of time, firing her up and flying her at maximum speed at low altitude while checking out all the systems. They also dropped a bomb flying out of Jaisalmer. They also did tanking ops.

And ... no need to hold your breath any longer ... the Demo will be here in mid May and will likely do the Leh trip again and anything that the Indian Air Force requests. They were earlier unable to bring in the Demonstrator because of tasking with the Swedish Air Force which happened at exactly the same time that they were supposed to come to India.

Indian Air Force pilots travel to Sweden in the next few days. They are free to fly the Demo there if they want though they will be firing an AMRAAM off a D platform.

My sources tell me that Indian Air Force pilots loved the jet while it was here, particularly its man-machine interface and the intuitive nature of the setup ... 

Please note the following riders to this post:

1. I do not endorse any of the MMRCA competitors.
2. I sincerely hope the Indian Air Force gets the plane it wants and the decision is NOT a political one.
3. I am not aware of the performances of the other competitors though I have NOTHING to suggest that they have done badly.

Vishnu Som
Associate Editor and Senior News Anchor
NDTV*

He is one of the respected Defence reporter 
*He posted this on BR forum* also
He is the one who Posted first pictures of LCH on NDTV website and then others followed
He also did -Jet Set go episode on NDTV flying all MRCA aircrafts 
He was the one who went to Red Flag Exercise.

here is his profile - NDTV Social: Vishnu Som

I also back this machine look at previous two pages of this forum i have fully supported Gripen . 
I saw it during Aero-india show it was my first Crush, same was case with my batch-mates who are in IAF ( sad i got Army but still proud of my job)

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## Dark Angel

cheers to vishnu som he is my favourite


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## letsbefriends

sancho said:


> The pics of Mig 35 that I posted recently even shows that the Mig 35 seems to be just a landbased version of the Mig 29K and the Russians don't develop a real new airframe for it. Regarding ground attack capabilities, I think that depends on what you see as considerable.
> A payload of around 6t on 9 weapon stations only (one will be occupied by the targeting pod), some stand off missiles, but only 500 Kg KAB bombs cleared so far is very limited imo, especially in comparison with the US fighters, their weapon packs as well as the Rafale and its capabilities in this field.
> The Mig 29K was a fast, cheap and partly even forced deal, which will serve the need of IN at the moment, but it is not comparable with carrier fighters like F18Sh, or Rafale. IAF has even more options which can outclass the Mig, so the chances are even lower here.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually there are only to export orders for the EF (Austria and Saudi Arabia), with a total number of 89 fighters, all other EFs will only be produced for the consortium members and there is a reason why it was out of several competitions very early, because it is behind in development and wasn't comparable in multi role capabilities yet.
> No doubt about that, in A2A it is at the moment the best fighter behind the F22, but we are not looking for another air superiority fighter, we need real multi role fighters.
> 
> 
> If they can't even start the production by then, how do you expect us to build it under licence? Only if they start the production line, they can show us how to do it in India too and especially the radar will need some more time to be mature and ready for serial production.
> 
> 
> As I said, there is no development to join anymore and it's export chances are very low. The time of this Mig is over, that's why not even Russia don't buys them, Russian navy buys less Mig 29K the IN, which says much about it don't you think?



i agree on that though..but again we cannot rule out manuverability and agility coz in case of war PAF jeys can reach india by in 3 to 5 minutes n PLAAF can reach himachal i 4 chd in 6 n delhi in 14 to 16 min approx.so we cannot rule dogfighting out n f 18 is not the best aircraft for dogfightng,gripen has lesser range n payload and rafale hasnt been ordered by any air force so its development is in doubt,may be f 16 is better but again a 30 yr old platform n with SH we will get a 20 yr old platform with no development..jst a thought..again i m no expert and seriously thiere is a lot of dilemma among us..wonder what is goin on among the minds of real decision makers

sorry if i have offended u though..no hard feelings letsbefriends


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## sancho

letsbefriends said:


> i agree on that though..but again we cannot rule out manuverability and agility coz in case of war PAF jeys can reach india by in 3 to 5 minutes n PLAAF can reach himachal i 4 chd in 6 n delhi in 14 to 16 min approx.so we cannot rule dogfighting out n f 18 is not the best aircraft for dogfightng,gripen has lesser range n payload and rafale hasnt been ordered by any air force so its development is in doubt,may be f 16 is better but again a 30 yr old platform n with SH we will get a 20 yr old platform with no development..jst a thought..again i m no expert and seriously thiere is a lot of dilemma among us..wonder what is goin on among the minds of real decision makers
> 
> sorry if i have offended u though..no hard feelings letsbefriends


Of course every fighter has it's disadvantages, that's why IAF will go for the one with the least and that suits the best to the present fleet, but the Mig has clearly more disadvantages. 
The problem for us is, that we don't know the actual requirements of IAF/MoD and that we don't have the actual specs of the fighters, so most we can do is make a guess and speculate on it.

You didn't offended me, don't worry about it! We just have different opinions, that's all.


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## sancho

LT.PRATEEK said:


> This piece of information will set this thread buzzing for sure.
> 
> *The Gripen Ds did sensationally in their tests when they were in India recently. The D restarted and took off from Leh with a loadout of 2.6 tonnes which included air to air missiles and underwing fuel tanks. The heat test went off very well in Jaisalmer. It meant placing the aircraft in the sun for a designated period of time, firing her up and flying her at maximum speed at low altitude while checking out all the systems. They also dropped a bomb flying out of Jaisalmer. They also did tanking ops.
> 
> And ... no need to hold your breath any longer ... the Demo will be here in mid May and will likely do the Leh trip again and anything that the Indian Air Force requests. They were earlier unable to bring in the Demonstrator because of tasking with the Swedish Air Force which happened at exactly the same time that they were supposed to come to India.
> 
> Indian Air Force pilots travel to Sweden in the next few days. They are free to fly the Demo there if they want though they will be firing an AMRAAM off a D platform.*


*

That is interesting, so Saab made now mainly the weapon trials and not the real flight trials, but that will delay the whole for another month and I wonder how the other vendors will react about this.*


----------



## sudhir007

LT.PRATEEK said:


> This piece of information will set this thread buzzing for sure.
> 
> *The Gripen Ds did sensationally in their tests when they were in India recently. The D restarted and took off from Leh with a loadout of 2.6 tonnes which included air to air missiles and underwing fuel tanks. The heat test went off very well in Jaisalmer. It meant placing the aircraft in the sun for a designated period of time, firing her up and flying her at maximum speed at low altitude while checking out all the systems. They also dropped a bomb flying out of Jaisalmer. They also did tanking ops.
> 
> And ... no need to hold your breath any longer ... the Demo will be here in mid May and will likely do the Leh trip again and anything that the Indian Air Force requests. They were earlier unable to bring in the Demonstrator because of tasking with the Swedish Air Force which happened at exactly the same time that they were supposed to come to India.
> 
> Indian Air Force pilots travel to Sweden in the next few days. They are free to fly the Demo there if they want though they will be firing an AMRAAM off a D platform.
> 
> My sources tell me that Indian Air Force pilots loved the jet while it was here, particularly its man-machine interface and the intuitive nature of the setup ...
> 
> Please note the following riders to this post:
> 
> 1. I do not endorse any of the MMRCA competitors.
> 2. I sincerely hope the Indian Air Force gets the plane it wants and the decision is NOT a political one.
> 3. I am not aware of the performances of the other competitors though I have NOTHING to suggest that they have done badly.
> 
> Vishnu Som
> Associate Editor and Senior News Anchor
> NDTV*
> 
> He is one of the respected Defence reporter
> *He posted this on BR forum* also
> He is the one who Posted first pictures of LCH on NDTV website and then others followed
> He also did -Jet Set go episode on NDTV flying all MRCA aircrafts
> He was the one who went to Red Flag Exercise.
> 
> here is his profile - NDTV Social: Vishnu Som
> 
> I also back this machine look at previous two pages of this forum i have fully supported Gripen .
> I saw it during Aero-india show it was my first Crush, same was case with my batch-mates who are in IAF ( sad i got Army but still proud of my job)


from this point i think F-18 have better chance coze it also use same engine and may be engine deal for lca go for ge414. and also lca use the ge404(which also got successful trail in leh ) which is a earlier model of ge414. GE414 use us marine version of f-18 it mean it will easlly pass salty water test for IN. which i dnt think ej200 have.


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## Mahakaya

Gripen NG Demo To Land In Bangalore Mid-May!

LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence: Gripen NG Demo To Land In Bangalore Mid-May!







Damn this baby looks sweeeet!!!

With the IAF waiting for this slick machine, it looks like the Gripen will be in the top 3-4 shortlisted.

Oh Hell - Its so hard to predict whats going to happen! The wait is killing me!

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## manish123

Mahakaya said:


> Gripen NG Demo To Land In Bangalore Mid-May!
> 
> LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence: Gripen NG Demo To Land In Bangalore Mid-May!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Damn this baby looks sweeeet!!!
> 
> With the IAF waiting for this slick machine, it looks like the Gripen will be in the top 3-4 shortlisted.
> 
> Oh Hell - Its so hard to predict whats going to happen! The wait is killing me!



Correct this nautanki should end now and our LCA is suffering bcause of EJ200 not being ordered.

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## thebrownguy

manish123 said:


> Correct this nautanki should end now and our LCA is suffering bcause of EJ200 not being ordered.



I second that.

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## Mahakaya

manish123 said:


> Correct this nautanki should end now and our LCA is suffering bcause of EJ200 not being ordered.



OHHHH YESSS!!!!

OHHHHHHHH YESSSSS!

Feel the MIGHT BROTHERS! FEEEEEEEEL THE MIGHT!!!

De Shiva var Aiso mohe, subh Karman te Kabhu na Daron, Na daro ar so sab Jaye Lado Nische Kar Apni Jeet Karon


HAR HAR MAHADEV!!!!!!!!!



Oh TERI THAN HOR LA.......



OH WADIYA BEERE - KHUSH KITA YI!

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## Mahakaya

CHAL BALIYE CHAL CHALIYE HUN SOYIE - MAFI TO ANYONE WHO FELT BAD FOR THE UNPARLIAMENTARY LANGUAGE!

GOOD NIGHT BROTHERS-JUST HAD SOME FOR THE NIGHT AND THE ROAD!

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## KEETARP

*Air Force gives Gripen fighter a second chance*​
Ajai Shukla / New Delhi April 03, 2010, 0:55 IST



> Sweden&#8217;s futuristic medium fighter, the Gripen NG, has been given a second chance in the $11 billion contest to select a Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) for the Indian Air Force (IAF). The Ministry of Defence (MoD) has asked Gripen International, which last month failed to send the Gripen NG fighter for trials in India on the dates allotted by the IAF, to send the fighter for trials in the middle of May.
> 
> Business Standard had reported, on March 9, that Gripen International had sent older Gripen-D fighters for trials because the Gripen NG was held back in Sweden for improvements for the Swedish Air Force. Technically, that was a violation of the terms of the competition.
> 
> But senior IAF officers have told Business Standard that they would not allow a legalistic interpretation of rules to narrow their options. Explains a senior air marshal who is involved in the decision-making, &#8220;We have a time window until the middle of this year, during which each of the six fighters in the tender are undergoing three stages of trials and inspections. As long as the Gripen NG is ready for trials within that period, we will evaluate the aircraft. All six vendors will have a level-playing field&#8221;.
> 
> Besides the Gripen NG, the other fighters being evaluated by the IAF are &#8212; the F/A-18 Super Hornet; the F-16IN Super Viper; the Dassault Rafale; the Eurofighter Typhoon; and the MiG-35. While all but the MiG-35 are already in service, the Gripen NG is still under development. Just a single &#8216;demonstrator&#8217; aircraft has been built to prove its capabilities. Next year, Gripen will build the first Gripen NG prototype.
> 
> Gripen International has welcomed the MoD&#8217;s decision. Gripen&#8217;s India campaign head, Eddy de la Motte, told Business Standard, &#8220;Our plan was always to bring the (Gripen NG) demonstrator to India. The Swedish government&#8217;s sudden tasking is being completed right now. We will soon be ready to go to India and we will provide the IAF with maximum opportunity to evaluate the fighter&#8221;.
> 
> The first of these opportunities will come next week, when an IAF team travels to Sweden to evaluate the Gripen&#8217;s firing of a &#8216;Beyond Visual Range&#8217; air-to-air missile. It is learnt that Gripen International will make the Gripen NG demonstrator available to IAF pilots, if they wish to fly it in Sweden next week. If the IAF accepts the offer, it will be the first time an Indian pilot flies the Gripen NG, albeit with a Swedish &#8216;safety pilot&#8217; in the rear cockpit.
> 
> While Gripen International expresses confidence in their fighter, it now faces trials in conditions hotter (and, therefore, more unfavourable) than all the other contenders. IAF sources reveal that the Gripen-D performed well in last month&#8217;s trials; despite that, the Gripen NG will be put through a full battery of tests, including high altitude testing in Ladakh.
> 
> The Gripen NG is significantly more capable than the Gripen-D. It has a more powerful GE-414 engine; it carries more fuel and, therefore, has greater range; and, with 10 hard points for weaponry, the Gripen NG has extra teeth. It will also come with a new AESA radar, electronic warfare equipment, and upgraded avionics.
> 
> Senior IAF officers, while happy with these features, also highlight the Gripen NG&#8217;s downside: A high level of US electronics, weaponry, and the GE-414 engine. And, the F-16IN and the Gripen NG are the only two single-engine aircraft in the contest, which places them at a disadvantage in terms of reliability.








Air Force gives Gripen fighter a second chance

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2010/04/air-force-gives-gripen-fighter-second.html

Looks like IAF will closely look,scrutinise at all aspects and then decide which is best of them . 
True professionalism has been kept in trials which i doubted at start of trial and i thought it will be influenced by politics but hats off to IAF , they certainly did better than Brazil and President . 
i am sure aircraft with best equipment will land in hands of IAF if they are ready to sacrifice time and wait one more month for trials to end.
Gripen clearing LEH trials just demonstrate that - A modern and Robust airframe design (Low drag, composites) simply can not be out-gunned by politics/price. Brazil is a ver good example - Even though President went all guns blazing against anti - rafale jets , still in technical evaluation Gripen came on top as first choice of pilots . 
IAF loves them- i personally saw its simulator at aero-india and Buzz it created (same was case at defexpo - damn i missed it )
Infact all pilots who have flown them love it- must be something special, no doubt Gripen is a superb machine .

*A blog for all Indian Gripen lovers and followers - Enjoy it* ( has extensive effort and hard work put in from 2009 for gripen followers). 

http://www.gripenindia.com/


----------



## ranveer

Mahakaya said:


> OHHHH YESSS!!!!
> 
> OHHHHHHHH YESSSSS!
> 
> Feel the MIGHT BROTHERS! FEEEEEEEEL THE MIGHT!!!
> 
> De Shiva var Aiso mohe, subh Karman te Kabhu na Daron, Na daro ar so sab Jaye Lado Nische Kar Apni Jeet Karon
> 
> 
> HAR HAR MAHADEV!!!!!!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> Oh TERI THAN HOR LA.......
> 
> 
> 
> OH WADIYA BEERE - KHUSH KITA YI!



Dear Mahakaya,,,
Please it is GURBANI,,, utmost respect with full shabad and exact meanings. Shiva is a similie used for god and not exactly Shivji is referred....

Deh Shiva bar mohe ihai Grant me this boon O God
shubh karman the kabhu na taroo May I never refrain from the
righteous acts;
Na daroo ar siyoo jab jah laroon May I fight without fear all foes
in life's battles
Nischai kar apni jeet koroo With confident courage claiming
the victory!
Ar Sikh hao apne hi mum ko May thy glory be grained in my
 mind,
Eh lalch hou guna tau uchroo and my highest ambition be
singing thy praises;
Jab aav ki audh nidhann nanay When this mortal life comes to
end,
Aut he rann me tab joojh maroo May I die fighting with limitless 
courage

No offence...


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## Mahakaya

ranveer said:


> Dear Mahakaya,,,
> Please it is GURBANI,,, utmost respect with full shabad and exact meanings. Shiva is a similie used for god and not exactly Shivji is referred....
> 
> Deh Shiva bar mohe ihai Grant me this boon O God
> shubh karman the kabhu na taroo May I never refrain from the
> righteous acts;
> Na daroo ar siyoo jab jah laroon May I fight without fear all foes
> in life's battles
> Nischai kar apni jeet koroo With confident courage claiming
> the victory!
> Ar Sikh hao apne hi mum ko May thy glory be grained in my
> mind,
> Eh lalch hou guna tau uchroo and my highest ambition be
> singing thy praises;
> Jab aav ki audh nidhann nanay When this mortal life comes to
> end,
> Aut he rann me tab joojh maroo May I die fighting with limitless
> courage
> 
> No offence...



Dear Ranveer - I know - I am also Jatt!

As for using it as a similie for God, I doubt that. Further,many Gurbanis feature the name of Ram as well.


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## ranveer

Mahakaya said:


> Dear Ranveer - I know - I am also Jatt!
> 
> As for using it as a similie for God, I doubt that. Further,many Gurbanis feature the name of Ram as well.



I am a Sikh...
Ram, Shiv, Vishnu, Rahim they are all used in context of almighty god...

Just wanted to clarify with regards to your pic-avatar...

Cheers!!!! this is UK slang...


----------



## Mahakaya

ranveer said:


> I am a Sikh...
> Ram, Shiv, Vishnu, Rahim they are all used in context of almighty god...
> 
> Just wanted to clarify with regards to your pic-avatar...
> 
> Cheers!!!! this is UK slang...



Yes that is what I meant.


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## bumbgola

Broadsword: Air Force gives Gripen fighter a second chance

Air Force gives Gripen fighter a second chance


by Ajai Shukla
Business Standard
3rd April 2010

Swedens futuristic medium fighter, the Gripen NG, has been given a second chance in the US $11 billion contest to select a Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) for the Indian Air Force. The MoD has asked Gripen International, which last month failed to send the Gripen NG fighter for trials in India on the dates allotted by the IAF, to send the fighter for trials in the middle of May.

Business Standard had reported, on 9th March, that Gripen International had sent older Gripen-D fighters for trials because the Gripen NG was held back in Sweden for improvements for the Swedish Air Force. Technically, that was a violation of the terms of the competition.

But senior IAF officers have told Business Standard that they would not allow a legalistic interpretation of rules to narrow their options. Explains a senior air marshal who is involved in the decision-making, We have a time window until the middle of this year, during which each of the six fighters in the tender are undergoing three stages of trials and inspections. As long as the Gripen NG is ready for trials within that period, we will evaluate the aircraft. All six vendors will have a level-playing field.

Besides the Gripen NG, the other fighters being evaluated by the IAF are: the F/A-18 Super Hornet; the F-16IN Super Viper; the Dassault Rafale; the Eurofighter Typhoon; and the MiG-35. While all but the MiG-35 are already in service, the Gripen NG is still under development. Just a single demonstrator aircraft has been built to prove its capabilities. Next year, Gripen will build the first Gripen NG prototype.

Gripen International has welcomed the MoDs decision. Gripens India campaign head, Eddy de la Motte, told Business Standard, Our plan was always to bring the (Gripen NG) demonstrator to India. The Swedish governments sudden tasking is being completed right now. We will soon be ready to go to India and we will provide the IAF with maximum opportunity to evaluate the fighter.

The first of these opportunities will come next week, when an IAF team travels to Sweden to evaluate the Gripens firing of a Beyond Visual Range air-to-air missile. It is learned that Gripen International will make the Gripen NG demonstrator available to IAF pilots, should they wish to fly it in Sweden next week. If the IAF accepts the offer, it will be the first time an Indian pilot flies the Gripen NG, albeit with a Swedish safety pilot in the rear cockpit.

While Gripen International expresses confidence in their fighter, it now faces trials in conditions hotter (and, therefore, more unfavourable) than all the other contenders. IAF sources reveal that the Gripen-D performed well in last months trials; despite that, the Gripen NG will be put through the full battery of tests, including high altitude testing in Ladakh.

The Gripen NG is significantly more capable than the Gripen D. It has a more powerful GE-414 engine; it carries more fuel and, therefore, has greater range; and, with 10 hard points for weaponry, the Gripen NG has extra teeth. It will also come with a new AESA radar, electronic warfare equipment, and upgraded avionics.

Senior IAF officers, while happy with these features, also highlight the Gripen NGs downside: a high level of US electronics, weaponry, and the GE-414 engine. And the F-16IN and the Gripen NG are the only two single-engine aircraft in the contest, which places them at a disadvantage in terms of reliability.


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## imran iqbal



Reactions: Like Like:
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## sancho

Swiss RUAG won the contract for producing parts of Rafales RBE 2 AESA radar, *the first radars will be provided to French Rafales in the seconed half of next year!*

Google translation:

Google Nachricht


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## vimki

Any idea on when the trials will be completed. I believe it should be somewhere around this year...


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## KEETARP

sancho said:


> Swiss RUAG won the contract for producing parts of Rafales RBE 2 AESA radar, *the first radars will be provided to French Rafales in the seconed half of next year!*
> 
> Google translation:
> 
> Google Nachricht



For me ,French in-fact whole Europe Is behind America in Maturing their Radar technology.
They missed their bus right from the start-with respect to manufacturing MMICs, both commercially and militarily.Even today Europe is only beginning to catch up to where the US was in the late 1990s manufacturing them . Same goes with Russians
Still many of specs has been kept classified which creates more doubt regarding performance of most of their radars.

Their design which i assume would be based on current RBE PESA - and seeing nose dimension of fighter itself it wont support modules more than any other one esp F18. Thales product brochure only says near 1000 but dosen't specify may be 900 we dont know.

Secondly their power ratings will be a great question mark , i doubt they can achieve enough cooling to give a sustained power rating of 20KW for a 700 mm antennae size . 
Duty cycle of European MMIC chips is not known - i would say difference of 30% is what best they could achieve , 
reliability of Russian module varies between 21-as peak to 18-as average for fighter size of SU-35, which have descent cooling (gives around 25% dip in peak performance)
Rafale being smaller no doubt will perform less since cooling issue will crop up.
Now that gives us variability of RBE2 aesa between 15 to 20 KW which is quite significant- i wonder what INDIAN force requirement is.

Even giving 18KW for half surface-area of antennae (which i assume 700mm ) will be better than Gripen/F16 but will it match what F18 is providing . I have many reservations.

Finally , their technology is only taking off recently - We still dont know what they have done with their SIDE-LOBE losses of Radar beam. That was one issue which came up in Early design of AMSAR project with loss of more than 20 -25 db.

Point is All European fighters are a superbly designed machines but for obtaining maximum performance of them - they Require American help and sustained funds which some nations are not willing.

Rafale no doubt is an epitome of Delta wing design, but dosent provide enough bang for bucks French are asking. 
And all newer technology which they are implementing in phased manner like 
new MAWS ( read link below, i was impressed by it)
Ares Homepage

New AESA , 
New processors for SPECTRA require lot of funds , 
I can bet India is not ready to provide that . 
If they it themselves and French gov help ,it will reflect in Pricing of aircraft itself which is already overpriced.


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## DMLA

LT.PRATEEK said:


> Thnx -get it done as soon as possible
> I am also trying to get my friends from IAF ( Batchmates) to help me out with this.



Sorry for being this late 

A friend of mine sent me this scan about the topic you talked of. I am sending the relevant portion....



There was another news article of RFI being sent for AESA T/R components for integration in india for LCA. I have no information about the status. It would seem that most frontline fighters (mki, lca, mmrca) will have AESA by 2020-2025.

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## KEETARP

Thnx Mate
Actually , this article also got published in Asian Age Mumbai edition.
Nevertheless , what is your take .
I mean has this something to do with talk of getting ELTA-2052 which is in final stages on American jets to get full TOT compliant deal. 
My guess is if ZHUK-MSF AE as promised by NIIR in 2012 is ready , its performance will be twice than earlier AESA , so this radar theory dosen't apply on MIG.( Janes is reliable but still Mig theory dosent hold promise to me)
My Bet is, it has something to do with Eurofighter and Gripen case.

Even last line 300 MRCA - total waste. Nos always fluctuated bcoz of LCA earlier , but with IOC in 2011 . 
MRCA will remain at 126.


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## sancho

LT.PRATEEK said:


> For me ,French in-fact whole Europe Is behind America in Maturing their Radar technology.
> They missed their bus right from the start-with respect to manufacturing MMICs, both commercially and militarily.Even today Europe is only beginning to catch up to where the US was in the late 1990s manufacturing them . Same goes with Russians
> Still many of specs has been kept classified which creates more doubt regarding performance of most of their radars.



I agree, although the Captor radar of EF is said to provide good performance, the Europeans are lagging behind in this field and I said it before that radar (at least radar range) might be one of the weak points of Rafale. But I also don't believe that radar will be a big requirement in MMRCA, except that it must be an AESA radar. With Bars AESA in MKI and the new AESA at Pak Fa IAF already is well positioned in this regard and these will remain our main fighters, MMRCA will be used alongside them.
Also imo radar is not the most important sensor anymore, the combination of a low RCS and good passive detection capabilities with avionics is getting more and more important, especially with stealth fighters coming in numbers. In this field, I see the Europeans and most of all the Israelis in front.
If you take a closer look at Rafales Spectra EWS capabilites and the new DDMNG you will see, that these are pretty much the same techs that the US call 5. gen avionics in their new F35, but France uses the first Spectra versions nearly a decade now. 



LT.PRATEEK said:


> Their design which i assume would be based on current RBE PESA - and seeing nose dimension of fighter itself it wont support modules more than any other one esp F18. Thales product brochure only says near 1000 but dosen't specify may be 900 we dont know.



I generally don't think that the RBE 2 AESA is bad, or see a reason not to believe that it has 1000 T/R modules. The Rafale is a fighter in the size of a single engine fighter, which is obvious, because it's based on the M2K. That's why the nose is also not comparable to the nose of F18SH, or EF of course, but one point could give a hint of how capable it could be (in a bigger version), the number of targets that can be tracked and engaged at the same time. 
RBE 2 AESA can track 40 targets and engage 8 of them, Bars PESA in MKI can track 15 targets and engage 4 (the AESA upgrade should double the performance), Zhuk AESA radar can track 30 targets and engage 6 and the ELTA 2052 can even track 64 targets at the same time.



LT.PRATEEK said:


> Point is All European fighters are a superbly designed machines but for obtaining maximum performance of them - they Require American help and sustained funds which some nations are not willing.


As I said above that is only true in regards to radar, but neither in avionics, design, or weapon development they really need US help. The simple difference is, European countries don't spend that much money for such developments as the US does. 



LT.PRATEEK said:


> Rafale no doubt is an epitome of Delta wing design, but dosent provide enough bang for bucks French are asking.
> And all newer technology which they are implementing in phased manner like
> New AESA ,
> New processors for SPECTRA require lot of funds ,
> I can bet India is not ready to provide that .
> If they it themselves and French gov help ,it will reflect in Pricing of aircraft itself which is already overpriced.


That is not correct, these are funded by France itself, because these are normal upgrades of exsisting techs and fall into the new F3 standard. What is not funded so far are integration of CFTs and HMS if I'm not wrong, as well es the funding of a higher thrust engine and exactly here India would be the perfect partner! 
We already will fund the Kaveri-Snecma development and we have a HMS JV with Thales, so this could be integrated too. I highly would recomend CFTs, but that of course will depend on the IAF and MoD of course. 

I disagree, the Rafale offers clearly the most bang for bucks, simply by the fact that we can integrate Kaveri-Snecma into it, which no other fighter can offer. Just compare it with the other contenders and tell me, which other fighter offers full ToT, source codes, no restrictions, integration of indigenous engine, is ready and mature by the time we will get the first squad in 2014, includes a proven carrier version and is completelly sanction prove?
Because this all is what the Rafale offers for us and I don't see any other contender that can offer this much advantages. 
That's why I always say, if IAF/MoD want's the best package of advantages, they will take the Rafale!


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## nightrider_saulat

by which year first squadron of MRCA will be inducted and secondly by which year their serial production will get started.


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## DMLA

LT.PRATEEK said:


> Thnx Mate
> Actually , this article also got published in Asian Age Mumbai edition.
> Nevertheless , what is your take .
> I mean has this something to do with talk of getting ELTA-2052 which is in final stages on American jets to get full TOT compliant deal.
> My guess is if ZHUK-MSF AE as promised by NIIR in 2012 is ready , its performance will be twice than earlier AESA , so this radar theory dosen't apply on MIG.( Janes is reliable but still Mig theory dosent hold promise to me)
> My Bet is, it has something to do with Eurofighter and Gripen case.
> 
> Even last line 300 MRCA - total waste. Nos always fluctuated bcoz of LCA earlier , but with IOC in 2011 .
> MRCA will remain at 126.



I feel this "parallel" development is essentially a means to keep the MMRCA program viable. Though RFP requirements stated AESA, most companies are still developing the same and thus IAF wants to mitigate the risks by hedging against any vendor failing to come up with the said system in time. This would make it possible for IAF to select the bird with the best "performance" even if it has sub-optimal radar performance. I also feel that LCA will have no bearing on the numbers of MMRCA procured (and vice versa) as they are in different categories. Moreover, with the current expansion of PAF & PLAAF and the stated need of 42+ squadrons for IAF, I foresee higher numbers of MMRCA (atleast 189). The issue with LCA IMO is the number of hardpoints/ payload limitations which seriously limit its role in a full scale war. MMRCA candidates provide exceptional payload which is considered important by IAF.

Looking at the IAF fleet, with jaguar, mirage and mig-29 upgrades; these birds should keep flying for another 15 years. DRDO/ IAF hopes to replace mirage/ jaguars with AMCA while the mig-29's will eventually be replaced with FGFA (post 2025). Thus the mki's, MMRCA, LCA will be independent programs. This would suggest 150-200 AMCA (at the max). Moreover, with the advent of UCAV's, the reliance on fighters should drop further. Thus with ~300 mki's, ~200 LCA's & ~200 MMRCA's, we get 35~36 squadrons. The MMRCA IMO will act as the first replacements of jaguars as well (since IAF RFP clearly indicated 2 specific squadrons for twin seat aircrafts for strike roles apart from additional twin seat trainers).

Let us see what happens as these are still years away and we will have a better picture only by 2020.


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## KEETARP

DMLA said:


> I feel this "parallel" development is essentially a means to keep the MMRCA program viable. Though RFP requirements stated AESA, most companies are still developing the same and thus IAF wants to mitigate the risks by hedging against any vendor failing to come up with the said system in time. This would make it possible for IAF to select the bird with the best "performance" even if it has sub-optimal radar performance. I also feel that LCA will have no bearing on the numbers of MMRCA procured (and vice versa) as they are in different categories. Moreover, with the current expansion of PAF & PLAAF and the stated need of 42+ squadrons for IAF, I foresee higher numbers of MMRCA (atleast 189). The issue with LCA IMO is the number of hardpoints/ payload limitations which seriously limit its role in a full scale war. MMRCA candidates provide exceptional payload which is considered important by IAF.
> 
> Looking at the IAF fleet, with jaguar, mirage and mig-29 upgrades; these birds should keep flying for another 15 years. DRDO/ IAF hopes to replace mirage/ jaguars with AMCA while the mig-29's will eventually be replaced with FGFA (post 2025). Thus the mki's, MMRCA, LCA will be independent programs. This would suggest 150-200 AMCA (at the max). Moreover, with the advent of UCAV's, the reliance on fighters should drop further. Thus with ~300 mki's, ~200 LCA's & ~200 MMRCA's, we get 35~36 squadrons. The MMRCA IMO will act as the first replacements of jaguars as well (since IAF RFP clearly indicated 2 specific squadrons for twin seat aircrafts for strike roles apart from additional twin seat trainers).
> 
> Let us see what happens as these are still years away and we will have a better picture only by 2020.



Strike capability wise Eurofighter and Mig35 will not give even 50&#37; what F18,F16,Rafale can at this time.

And MRCA has always been touted as replacing vintage Migs, now Mig was a pure interceptor aircraft in IAF innings. LCA is on same line even better bcoz of descent A2G capability.
Secondly if Air-superiority is there our SU30 can give better strike capability with standoff distance , bcoz of better payload+Fuel+radius.
I mean A2G weapons of Su30 are similar to Su34 and if Brahmos as promised is ready by 2014 , there cant be any deadly combo of strike package.
A2G weapon wise f18 can only better Su30. 

Even if IAF wants pure air-superiority fighters like Mig35 or Eurofighter , whatever advantage above Su30 they have now few years down the line MLU of Su30 will neutral it.

And we are talking about 40 years of life of Aircraft, in long term i dont see a role of Mrca in large nos .

SEAD role -FGFA , UAV's

Air-superiority - FGFA + SU30 + Mig29smt(Till they retire)

Strike aircraft - Su30 with Brahmos+ FGFA + MMRCA (Till AMCA takes that role) + Mirage2000-5

CAS,Point defence,Interception - Mig29smt , LCA

higher nos of MMRCA is waste , until AMCA delivery is slated beyond 2045 bcoz final assembly of MMRCA wont end before 2025 and add fighter's life.

Now 300 MKI + 250 FGFA+ 200 LCA alone gives us 750 in total more than 35 SQ worth(now these are nearly 100 confirmed and i have not counted Jags+mirage+Mig29) ,
Now i am giving 10 Years for Russia to build FGFA not 2015 , and for the time being that is time period from 2014 when first MMRCA arrives to 2022 till FGFA in nos start arrive you need only 100 aircraft to complement Mirage+Jags + Mig29 fleet to prevent falling Sq strength.

If you add AMCA nos climb to 1000 nearing 50 SQ worth, assuming it arrives in 15 years from now

For 2015-2025 time frame spending 20 billions on 200 MRCA is just way too much.
10 billion is good enough

By that time something like Predator would be functional in IAF , i mean atleast 2-3 sq of armed drone would form strike core also.

I see no place for 200-300 MRCA.


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## DMLA

To be frank with you, I don't see AMCA coming in any numbers before 2030. IAF never said that MMRCA was a replacement for mig-21's. Media has always cited MMRCA as a requirement which stems from LCA delays and mig retirements. This may have been the case initially but has changed dramatically. With regard to hardpoints/payload, all the MMRCA contenders (barring mig-35) approach or surpass that of su-30. Moreover, one look at RFP will tell you that IAF is also looking at some of these birds for strike role (the number of twin seaters required is disproportionate to the number of single seaters).

As I said, MMRCA is a hedge against HAL/DRDO not getting AMCA out in time. The fact is that any modern fighter has a long development phase. With LCA still few years away (mk-II), I don't see AMCA coming in any time soon. This makes MMRCA to be the only other option. We are looking at the chinese developments specifically near our borders which makes it necessary for us to have good strike platforms. IMHO, MMRCA should be a great strike aircraft with good A2A abilities.

Anyhow, as I said before, we will not know where things are going for a few years. Let us wait and see which aircraft is chosen, when PAKFA comes online (I expect this to happen only after 2020 and FGFA another 2-3 years) and when AMCA comes online. We will need a replacement for jaguars/ mirages from 2025+ and by then all the contracted MMRCA's would have been produced (10 year production run from 2015 to 2025). This makes me think MMRCA will be procured if (and mostly it will) AMCA is not ready by then.


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## KEETARP

DMLA said:


> With regard to hardpoints/payload, all the MMRCA contenders (barring mig-35) approach or surpass that of su-30. Moreover, one look at RFP will tell you that IAF is also looking at some of these birds for strike role (the number of twin seaters required is disproportionate to the number of single seaters)



Some clarifications
Gripen , F16 - I doubt that they have load like Su30 esp Fuel on Board. 
And when you take high wing loading into account - esp of F16 , Rafale its T/W ratio drops considerably. 
And one of the Req to operate at LEH, i mean could be doubtful.
Secondly This nos div between single seater and Double seater , i never came across such news / article . any link
A


----------



## DMLA

LT.PRATEEK said:


> Some clarifications
> Gripen , F16 - I doubt that they have load like Su30 esp Fuel on Board.
> And when you take high wing loading into account - esp of F16 , Rafale its T/W ratio drops considerably.
> And one of the Req to operate at LEH, i mean could be doubtful.
> Secondly This nos div between single seater and Double seater , i never came across such news / article . any link
> A



wrt nos of single/twin configs, here is a link to a 2009 article. I am afraid I do not have the link to the original article which had cited the RFP and was from a vendor. It may have been removed due to confidentiality clauses, etc....

link: Race is on for India MMRCA | AVIATION WEEK



> Flight trials for India&#8217;s biggest defense procurement program, the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA), are underway. India will acquire 126 aircraft&#8212;86 single-seat and 40 twin-seat configurations.



compare this with the mig-29 program (for example) which had 70 single seaters and 10 twin seaters (B & UB) according to an article in AFM from 2009.

wrt requirements and comparison to su-30, we should remember that we are trying to get around the "limitations" of the huge flanker by having a smaller platform which is better suited for strike ops. Just for comparison, I would ask you to look at the number of hardpoints that MMRCA contenders have and you would see that most have the same or more hardpoints than mki. Also, most birds have high payload ratings which are close to or higher than mki.

We should also remember that stand off capability was a big issue with IAF for MMRCA and this resulted in american's touting JSOW's and russia touting the air launched variant of klub, newer versions of kh-31P's and kh-59M's. IAF is increasingly looking at long range precision strike capabilities and brahmos (as you pointed out) is a step in that direction. LCA from its very inception was meant to be a light weight interceptor with A2G capabilities and thus can never substitute for the MMRCA.

Anyhow, I would rest this discussion at this stage. I do not see any way of finding what will happen in future. A lot would also depend on which bird wins MMRCA as it would define the possible roles for the bird (and not just the roles IAF has envisioned).


----------



## letsbefriends

nightrider_saulat said:


> by which year first squadron of MRCA will be inducted and secondly by which year their serial production will get started.



cant tell that buddy,depends upon which aircraft wins the contract,if f-16 or 18 wins we may get the first squadron by the end of 2011 or mid 2012 and if eurofighter or mig wins we will get them in around 2013 mid or end,cant say abt rafale or gripen.itz just a wait n watch game right now


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## sancho

nightrider_saulat said:


> by which year first squadron of MRCA will be inducted and secondly by which year their serial production will get started.


The aim is 2014 and the first squad (18 fighters) will be delivered from winning country, the licence production should start 1 year later, when the production Su 30 MKI could end.


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## sancho

LT.PRATEEK said:


> Strike capability wise Eurofighter and Mig35 will not give even 50% what F18,F16,Rafale can at this time.
> 
> And MRCA has always been touted as replacing vintage Migs, now Mig was a pure interceptor aircraft in IAF innings. LCA is on same line even better bcoz of descent A2G capability...



MRCA was aimed as a fast replacement of half of the Mig 21 fleet, but MMRCA is more capable and includes latest techs, which makes them much more capable for a way longer time. 

If you look at the present IAF fleet, you can dived them into levels regarding their roles and capabilities. Mig 21 Bis, M/MF, Mig 27 and Jaguars at the lowest level, because they are either dedicated interceptors, with some CAS capabilities, or dedicated ground attack fighters.
Above them are Mig 21 Bisons, Mig 29 SMT and Mirage 2000, because they even have some multi role capabilties (BVR missiles, or PGMs)
And on top of them all the Su 30 MKI, as an fully multi role air superiority fighter. 

But IAF will phase out all Mig 21 and most of the Mig 27 till 2014/15 and IAF will look pretty different!
Then the upg Mig 27, upg Jaguars, Mig 21 Bisons, Mig 29 SMT, Mirage 2000-5 and LCA Mk1 will form the lowest end of capabilties and and above them we will see fully multi role capable fighters with 4+, or even 4++ techs like AESA radar, TVC, possibly even SC and very low RCS (LCA MK2, MMRCA and Su 30 MKI).
At the end of the decade and with the induction of the first 5. gen fighters things will start to change again, when Mig 21 Bisons will be and upg Mig 27, Jaguars, Mig 29, Mirage 2000-5 will start to be phased out. 

It's an ongoing process and it is not a 1 on 1 replacement, even FGFA will most likely replace upg Mig 27/29, Mirage 2000-5 and Jags in numbers, but takeover the air superiority role of MKI. A possible MCA instead will replace MKI in numbers, but is meant for the roles of Mig 27/29, Mirage 2000-5 and Jags. 

Regarding MKI and A2G capabilities, it is true that it has the same weapons and payload like the Su 34, but it lacks dedicated avionics, better amour, or RCS reductions that the Su 34 has and what makes it more usefull in low flying strike missions. From distance with stand off, or cruise missiles the MKI will be as deadly and even F18SH and Rafale will not be much better, but if you have to cross border and get undetected closer to a target, the MKI has clear disadvantages. Also Pak Fa / FGFA will be a multi role fighter too, but they will have only a few external weapon stations and it is not clear what weapons could be carriered internal. For preemtive strikes, or SEAD it will be preferable with limited internal payload and after 2020, but when air superiority is achieved, normal 4+ fighters will be more useful and the better choice for simple strikes with more numbers of PGMs.


----------



## Indian Su30 MKI

Any news of the MRCA


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## gurjot

f-18 only and only due to u.s pressure.this is true


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## Indian Su30 MKI

gurjot said:


> f-18 only and only due to u.s pressure.this is true



Brother are you sure.Then what about MIG 35.
What you suggest?
Is it right to leave Mig and go with Hornet?


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## gurjot

Indian Su30 MKI said:


> Brother are you sure.Then what about MIG 35.
> What you suggest?
> Is it right to leave Mig and go with Hornet?



u.s influences indian defence purchases


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## prototype

india will b going for definitly eurofighter,the 3rd best palne in the world after f-35 and f-22


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## Indian Su30 MKI

prototype said:


> india will b going for definitly eurofighter,the 3rd best palne in the world after f-35 and f-22



I think Eurofighter will be better than hornet.
But brother the cost is too much and there would be extra cost for infrastructure.


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## Mr. cool

Hello ji 

I am new here, and i think France option is batter then Typhoon because

1) It already have Working AESA radar

2) It's omni role fighter.(That means it's going to perform Air to air as well as Air to ground role) 

3) we already operate Mirage 2000. so it's required less infrastructure to support it and we required less time in pilot training.

4) They will provide 100 % TOT(ya others are also going to give us that but France also offered us Source code of the radar so we can change it to operate our own weapons like Astra missile and even Brahamos in future!!!)

5) They will integrate Kaveri engine in this war bird.

6) Marine version of this bird is already in use.

7) And finally it's cheaper then Typhoon. 

So, my Vote goes to France War Bird.


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## Indian Su30 MKI

Mr. cool said:


> Hello ji
> 
> I am new here, and i think France option is batter then Typhoon because
> 
> 1) It already have Working AESA radar
> 
> 2) It's omni role fighter.(That means it's going to perform Air to air as well as Air to ground role)
> 
> 3) we already operate Mirage 2000. so it's required less infrastructure to support it and we required less time in pilot training.
> 
> 4) They will provide 100 % TOT(ya others are also going to give us that but France also offered us Source code of the radar so we can change it to operate our own weapons like Astra missile and even Brahamos in future!!!)
> 
> 5) They will integrate Kaveri engine in this war bird.
> 
> 6) Marine version of this bird is already in use.
> 
> 7) And finally it's cheaper then Typhoon.
> 
> So, my Vote goes to France War Bird.



Mr. cool brother welcome to 

This is the best defence forum enjoy your stay


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## Indian Su30 MKI

Mr. cool bro I think you are right.
But I cannot leave MIG 35 also totally confused


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## Dash

Indian Su30 MKI said:


> Mr. cool bro I think you are right.
> But I cannot leave MIG 35 also totally confused


Hi MKI -

Dont get confused brother!!, no matter what we have all potent fighters competing here. The field trials are over, weapons trial are going on for some.

Results will be out soon on which one are left behind and which ones are the last one on the list.
So we will get a better picture then.

Like most of us have debated here, F-18, Rafale and Typhoon are the front runners.

All are very good fighters, at least non of these are operated in ASIA..

So wait and watch...


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## Indian Su30 MKI

Dash said:


> Hi MKI -
> 
> Dont get confused brother!!, no matter what we have all potent fighters competing here. The field trials are over, weapons trial are going on for some.
> 
> Results will be out soon on which one are left behind and which ones are the last one on the list.
> So we will get a better picture then.
> 
> Like most of us have debated here, F-18, Rafale and Typhoon are the front runners.
> 
> All are very good fighters, at least non of these are operated in ASIA..
> 
> So wait and watch...



Thanks brother.
From which year we will be able for induction?
You are leaving out MIG 35


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## Mr. cool

Indian Su30 MKI said:


> Thanks brother.
> From which year we will be able for induction?
> You are leaving out MIG 35



Dear Please understand our needs through this competition.

1) We required *Great* Ground attack plane.(Which are Rafael, F-18,F-16)

2) We required *Good* Air to air Fighter.(Which are Rafael,f-18,f-16,Mig-35,Typhoon and Gripen)


Mig -35 is great Air to air Fighter but O.K. ground attack plane. but we required opposite to that....

And Mig-35 is basically Mig-29 OVT(OVT in Russian means "Thrust vector control" and ya we are upgrading our old Mig-29 to the Mig-35 standers ).

Plus Mig-35 will not ready before 2015 !!!!!! 

So......... i hope you get my point

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## indushek

Along with rafale we should also not leave out Gripen NG with whose performance our IAF personnel were very much impressed that it was given a second go in the competition. One thing in gripen i like is its "expeditionary role" which would be very useful in war times. I hope iam correct


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## Mr. cool

indushek said:


> Along with rafale we should also not leave out Gripen NG with whose performance our IAF personnel were very much impressed that it was given a second go in the competition. One thing in gripen i like is its "expeditionary role" which would be very useful in war times. I hope iam correct



Sorry bro.

But i have to disagree with you here,

Yes Gripen is good plane but there is nothing revolutionary that they can provide us.

1) They can not offer us 100&#37; TOT because more then 40% of it's equipment is from USA....

2) It's Max pay load is 6.5 ton which is not good for ground attack role.

3) there is not any political advantages in it.

4) NG is not tested version.

5) No working AESA radar.

And more then that.."Just give our LCA fund and Our LCA Mark-2 will be as capable as gripen !!!!"

So for Our MRCA it's bed choice.

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## sudhir007

G. Parthasarathy: Does Mr. Obama Care About India? - WSJ.com

Very little was said publicly about U.S. President Barack Obama's meeting Sunday with Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh at Blair House in Washington. That's probably because neither side wants to draw attention to just how strained this important bilateral relationship has become over the past year.

One of the biggest sticking points is how to deal with Afghanistan. The Obama administration has promised to "reconcile" with the Taliban and talks openly about U.S. troop withdrawals, commencing in 2011. Both points deeply disturb New Delhi, whose long history of dealing with terrorism suggests the U.S. approach won't work. The U.S. has also shunned advance consultations on Afghanistan with its Indian partners.

As a result, India is rethinking its approach, which it has long coordinated with Washington, and a review of Afghan policy is now underway. There are indications that New Delhi is going to hedge its bets and enhance contacts and cooperation with Russia and Afghanistan's neighbors of Iran, Uzbekistan and Tajikistan, which share India's aversion for any return of the Taliban.

Another issue is how the U.S. and India will prosecute terrorists involved in the November 2008 attack on Mumbai&#8212;something that was raised by Mr. Singh in Sunday's meeting. There is incontrovertible evidence that the planning and advance reconnaissance for the massacre were carried out by a Chicago-based American, David Coleman Headley, who has entered into a plea bargain with federal prosecutors that precludes the death sentence or any possibility of his being extradited to India. There is now an almost universal belief in India that Mr. Headley was a double agent for the U.S. who turned rogue.

The Obama administration's flip-flops on giving Indian investigators access to interrogate Mr. Headley has infuriated New Delhi. The suspicion is that the administration wants to prevent Indian access to information about the involvement of Pakistan's security services in the Mumbai attack.

Then there are the strains on the ground in India&#8212;literally. After the terrorist attack on the Indian embassy in Kabul in February, the Afghan government alluded to the attackers having come from Pakistan, with the specific aim of attacking a rest house almost exclusively occupied by Indians. Yet the Obama administration's Special Representative for "Afpak," Richard Holbrooke, said: "I don't accept the fact that this was an attack on an Indian facility. Let us not jump to conclusions." He added: "I understand why everyone in Pakistan and everyone in India always focus on each other."

Mr. Holbrooke later tendered a qualified apology, but the damage had been done. When he announced on March 20 that he would "definitely be going to India soon" and scheduled an early visit, New Delhi conveyed that Mr. Holbrooke was not welcome in India.

These developments, together with emerging differences on issues like the lack of any meaningful consultations on the emerging architecture of cooperation in the Asia-Pacific or in the Persian Gulf, do not bode well for the Indian-American partnership. With the political climate vitiated, it appears unlikely that parliament will pass anytime soon the proposed Nuclear Liabilities Bill considered essential to implement the U.S-India civil nuclear deal&#8212;a blow to companies like General Electric and Westinghouse.

*Moreover, there is irritation in New Delhi over the encomiums showered on Pakistan Army Chief General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani, who is no friend of India. Indian officials were astonished at the unprecedented presence of three Cabinet-level officials&#8212;Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, Defense Secretary Robert Gates and National Security Adviser General James Jones&#8212;at a recent dinner hosted by Admiral Mike Mullen for the Pakistan general. There is a distinct possibility that Lockheed Corporation will be ruled out as a contender for an $8 billion contract for the supply of 126 fighter aircraft for India because of its readiness to provide advanced F-16 jets to Pakistan.*

The fact that President Obama didn't take questions from reporters after he left Sunday's meeting with Mr. Singh speaks volumes. What a change from the heady days of the Bush administration, when there was growing recognition in India about the potential for a "new era" of bilateral ties with the U.S.


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## Indian Su30 MKI

Bush was damm good


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## sensenreason

Im sorry to ask this question but...What happened tto LCA?


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## sudhir007

sensenreason said:


> Im sorry to ask this question but...What happened tto LCA?


ask this question on lca thread. 
it will induct by IAF in march 2011


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## Dash

It will be unwise to judge, who is favoring India and who is not, be it Mr Bush or be it Mr Obama. whats important to think (and not judge) will be what is the interest of the nation.

I would simply not like a political decision favoring any country behind MRCA.
Rather a decision which serve *"Our interest"* the most.



> There is a distinct possibility that Lockheed Corporation will be ruled out as a contender for an $8 billion contract for the supply of 126 fighter aircraft for India because of its readiness to provide advanced F-16 jets to Pakistan.



Lockheed was already out of the competition, and boing was not also a very good contender as we all know the level of TOT we might get on these planes.

I think its good the MRCA took a little time. 

And for the article.
I think its not wise again to think if Obama cares abouit India.
Coz its all known to us that India- Us relation will always be a little dicy over issues on AFPAK as both countries are persuing different interest.

"BUT"

If we leave this issue one side, the subject changes.
Both countries have other better things to think about than just AFPAK.

This is just a part of side of a coin, which is gray....

coming to MRCA, we will focus on Europeans for SURE.


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## sudhir007

Saab names Inderjit Sial India country head idrw.org

Swedish defence and security company Saab AB Monday announced the appointment of Inderjit Sial as country head of Saab International India AB.

&#8220;In his new role, Sial, will be responsible for the marketing activities of Saab Group in India,&#8221; a company statement said.

Sial takes on this position from Jan Widerstrom, who will be moving on to the role of Head-Asia Pacific Region, Saab AB.

&#8220;Inderjit has been with Saab since 2007 and has been key to steering several strategies leading to the company&#8217;s overall growth,&#8221; Widerstrom said.

&#8220;Having spent close to 22 years in the defence industry, Inderjit brings with him tremendous experience and knowledge of the sector.&#8221;

Prior to assuming the position, Sial was working with Saab International India AB as vice president &#8211; industrial cooperation and was responsible for the company&#8217;s offset projects in India.

Sial, who began his career working with the Swedish government owned Sukab AB, has worked with companies such as Boeing, British Aerospace, Airbus and Nobel Industries. Prior to joining Saab AB, Sial also served as the chairman of Oriflame, a Swedish multinational in India.

The Saab Gripen is one of the six contenders in the fray for an Indian Air Force (IAF) order for 126 medium multi-role combat jets in a deal that is worth $10 billion. With two sets of trials for the jets completed &#8212; one in India and the other in the country of manufacture &#8212; the IAF is likely to draw up a shortlist in about a year, after which price negotiations will begin.

Two years ago, the company entered into a joint venture with Tata Consultancy Services to establish an Aeronautical Design and Development Centre (ADDC) to serve global markets.

In February 2009, the ADDC received its first contract by Saab to participate in the design and development of the Gripen Next Generation fighter


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## Indian Su30 MKI

I think there will be a close fight between Rafale, Euro Typh and Mig35.
But I think Rafale will win because of the cost, reputaion of Mirages and for the french support.


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## karan.1970

Dont count F 18 out already.. .. Strage things happen in politics.. and even stranger in International Diplomacy..


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## indushek

but brother

other contenders are mostly equipped with american parts at some level and given their shaky support i doubt that would be useful in long run and mig35 they say is just enhancement of mig-29 . Rafale has not won any contracts so may be i thought gripen in long run would be the best bet ( hope i am correct)


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## Dash

indushek said:


> but brother
> 
> other contenders are mostly equipped with american parts at some level and given their shaky support i doubt that would be useful in long run and mig35 they say is just enhancement of mig-29 . Rafale has not won any contracts so may be i thought gripen in long run would be the best bet ( hope i am correct)


Dont worry Indushek we have enough people here to support you in case you are wrong.


> other contenders are mostly equipped with american parts at some level



Gripen also faces the same issues, like the American parts.

It doesnt matter if rafale or any other fighter have won competitions or not.
like mentioned, what matters is what is the best fighter which will serve our interest.

We will choose the best fighter and i know this.


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## karan.1970

See.. the major concern that some of us feels towards US products is the threat of sanctions etc.. But there is a lot of difference between India of 1998 and now. And there is a lot of difference between USA of 1998 and USA of today. And this MMRCA is not the be all and end all. Its just a small piece of the jig saw.. I mean its 126 planes.. right.. And India has already bought 79 (MKIs and 29 KUBs) this year itself. And we will start inducting LCA much before we start getting deliveries of MMRCA. So unlike Pakistan of 1998 who got shafted by the US on F16s, India does not suffer from all eggs in one basket situation. I think the whole issue of sanctions from US is over hyped.. 

I say, may the best plane win.....


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## Dash

Karan - I respect your views all the time.



> I say, may the best plane win.....



Even i hope the same. 

But more than sanctions I see the issue with US is the level of tech clearance, the so called TOT. They have clearly mentioned that the tech transfer on RADAR will only be to the level of US govt allows.

Thats a little odd and no accepted.

Rest everything is fine.


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## Mr. cool

i really really really want that RAFAEL win


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## ramu

Indians will go for Rafale

My reasons :

1. It is the best platform available with 100% TOT
2. It is the best to learn from and shape the LCA for the future
3. Engine synergy


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## karan.1970

Dash said:


> Karan - I respect your views all the time.
> 
> 
> 
> Even i hope the same.
> 
> But more than sanctions I see the issue with US is the level of tech clearance, the so called TOT. They have clearly mentioned that the tech transfer on RADAR will only be to the level of US govt allows.
> 
> Thats a little odd and no accepted.
> 
> Rest everything is fine.



Thanks for the kind words.. 

TOT is generally over rated.. Its a fancy way of saying you can do localized production..And all parts of the deal are never made public.. The aim of these MMRCA is to quickly plug the numbers and quality gap in teh IAF at this time. I agree that indigenous technological advancement is the ultimate goal as well, but we have SU 30 and PAK-FA for that.. 

One thing that I have learnt is that if you try to achieve too much in a single transaction, you end up with conflicting objectives.. 

Just my 2 cents....


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## karan.1970

ramu said:


> Indians will go for Rafale
> 
> My reasons :
> 
> 1. It is the best platform available with 100% TOT
> 2. It is the best to learn from and shape the LCA for the future
> 3. Engine synergy



wouldnt mind it.. But wouldnt mind the insect as well ......


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## kish

malaymishra123 said:


> MiG 35 has 11 hardpoints.
> 
> RFP is expected to be out THIS YEAR itself.
> 
> I fcuking love MiG 35. Its by far the best thing in the MRCA contest. Only F/A-18E/F is a competitor, but i dont think its worth it going for F-18. Logistics, maintenance, training, manufacturing components etc, etc.
> 
> MiG 35 would be plug and play for India. Plus it would be superior to the Su-30MKI till Su also gets an AESA. It would lack the strike package of F-18 though when MKI'zed it would be made up with Israeli armaments.



is su 30mki going to have aesa in future?? it will be more dangerous fighter if it is true.


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## kish

Mr. cool said:


> i really really really want that RAFAEL win



best one will win ,,,,,,,,,,,,,


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## kish

Storm Force said:


> I get the impression Some people are hoping and preying that India selects the MIG35 believiing it to be the most tech inferior in the race.
> 
> The Indians will do their home work. Make no mistake about that.
> 
> If in doubt just check the CUSTOMISED FLANKER that INDIA HAD BUILT exclusively for them the SU30MKI.
> 
> Has for MMRCA i here that BOTH F18S/H and Typhoons have ticked the most boxes.
> 
> As for CHEAP i don,t think INDIA buys anything CHEAP these days.
> 
> Phalcon AWACS at $400M EACH wen far cheaper options available
> 
> Scorpene subs frm France at $500m wen AGOSTAS cost just $300m each frm same supplier
> 
> Gorskhav carrier $2.3 billion started at just $900m
> 
> MMRCA will go over $13 billion easily BUT INDIA has the dollars no problem



u r right but still selectors will try to make best use of money, cause its really big amount


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## indushek

Well my fellow country men as most have stated let the best plane win and bring us the wanted security and superiority.


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## jha

Bulgaria: Saab Lures Bulgaria to Buy Gripen Fighter Jets - Novinite.com - Sofia News Agency

looks like we can have 250 gripens in our budget...

if India goes for something pricey then also it would not hurt to buy these cheap birds just to augment the no. ...100 of these should come in ~6 billion..


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## sudhir007

jha said:


> Bulgaria: Saab Lures Bulgaria to Buy Gripen Fighter Jets - Novinite.com - Sofia News Agency
> 
> looks like we can have 250 gripens in our budget...
> 
> if India goes for something pricey then also it would not hurt to buy these cheap birds just to augment the no. ...100 of these should come in ~6 billion..


Gripen NG which they offer to us come at $55-60 million without any weapon. did you think it is cheap i think if see the hole project it is only Mig-35 which has lowest price also we already have all needed infrastructure we already making RD-33 engine and some other part in india. so it will come more cheap when it goes in local production. But i dnt think India want any cheap plane which has less capability money is not a problem to us. also Gripen is very close to Lca-mk-2 may be same engine.


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## sirius4u

sudhir007 said:


> Gripen NG which they offer to us come at $55-60 million without any weapon. did you think it is cheap i think if see the hole project it is only Mig-35 which has lowest price also we already have all needed infrastructure we already making RD-33 engine and some other part in india. so it will come more cheap when it goes in local production. But i dnt think India want any cheap plane which has less capability money is not a problem to us. also Gripen is very close to Lca-mk-2 may be same engine.



exactly... india would never go for mig35,f16,gripen. Reasons.
1. mig 35 - not the best quality and india wants to come out of russian arms.. 
2. f16 & gripen- no way... its highly not advisable to have a single engined fighter for ground attack role coz there re extreme chances that one of the engines fail the other should bring the pilot back..

but anyways the first idea was to get 126 mirages... so in this case, the above thot must be of high considerations...


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## Dash

sudhir007 said:


> Gripen NG which they offer to us come at $55-60 million without any weapon. did you think it is cheap i think if see the hole project it is only Mig-35 which has lowest price also we already have all needed infrastructure we already making RD-33 engine and some other part in india. so it will come more cheap when it goes in local production. But i dnt think India want any cheap plane which has less capability money is not a problem to us. also Gripen is very close to Lca-mk-2 may be same engine.


Congratulations Sudhir for becoming a senior member.


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## sudhir007

Dash said:


> Congratulations Sudhir for becoming a senior member.



Thank dude


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## sudhir007

some information of mig-35

Google Translate


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## jha

although MIG-35 looks like a good plane but its chances are very slim...
i would take GRIPEN anyday over this...buying GRIPEN will mean we will have full access to european tech. ...and that too at pretty low price...


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## sudhir007

jha said:


> although MIG-35 looks like a good plane but its chances are very slim...
> i would take GRIPEN anyday over this...buying GRIPEN will mean we will have full access to european tech. ...and that too at pretty low price...



Jha ji Romania get 24 Gripen C/D at $1.3billon did you think it is cheap $54-55 Million per plane and what do you think the price of Gripen NG I read somewhere that it will come at least $70M without any weapon package. And do you think we can access full TOT when the 35% of Gripen part are us or any other country did you think they allow us and the main think engine which come from USA they are not offer full tot to us from the direct purchase weather for LCA or if we select F-18. I thin only country give us 100% tot 1. France and 2. Russia even im not big fan of Mig-35


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## jha

^^^^ sir jee, no country will give 100% TOT..it was not even what INDIA demanded ..TOT clause imo was to be 60%...and gripen gives that anyday...as much as its unit price is concerned , the price will do down drastically if we buy 100 planes...plus this is the best single engine plane out there in competition...

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## sudhir007

jha said:


> ^^^^ sir jee, no country will give 100% TOT..it was not even what INDIA demanded ..TOT clause imo was to be 60%...and gripen gives that anyday...as much as its unit price is concerned , the price will do down drastically if we buy 100 planes...plus this is the best single engine plane out there in competition...


Did you think it is best in mrca ????


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## jha

No, Its not the BEST..

EF is Best imo next comes RAFALE and SH...

i am just saying that its a good plane to increase no. of squadrons..
anyways we are going to buy >200 planes for MRCA...so it would not kill to have 100 of these to support 100 of EF/RAFALE .. since they are giving us open config. in a reasonably lower price.. plus IAF personals wre reported to be very impressed by this...

anyways this is just my view..feel free to disagree



P.S. since in the article it is claimed that a GRIPEN comes in the price of a 2nd hand F-16..so dont you think 70 mil. fig. is a little inaccurate..


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## jha

*Saab offers cut price fighter jets to Romania*


The offer matches the number of jets offered by the United States, but does not contain ammunition like the US offer.

Romania's Supreme Council announced in March its decision to buy 24 second-hand F-16 jets for 1.3 billion dollars, a purchase which is to be submitted to parliament for approval.

Jerry Lindbergh, a Swedish government official in charge of defence exports, gave details of the offer at a news conference in Bucharest.

He said *Sweden could provide 24 new "fully NATO interoperable Gripen C/D fighters, including training, support, logistics and 100 percent offset for the amount of one billion euros (1.3 billion dollars)."
*
The money could be paid over 15 years with low interest rates.

24 planes for 1.3B...100 should be in ~6B...considering the fact that Gripen-NG will cost more..100 should not cost more than 7BILL.
Plus we will gain so much in terms of knowledge to be applied in LCA MK-2...


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## sudhir007

jha said:


> 24 planes for 1.3B...100 should be in ~6B...considering the fact that Gripen-NG will cost more..100 should not cost more than 7BILL.
> Plus we will gain so much in terms of knowledge to be applied in LCA MK-2...


they are offer Gripen C/D to Romania but they offer us Gpripen NG more advance version which is till date did not get IOC (testing face)but if you see the C/D(w/o AESA, Weapon, ) price it will come at $54-55M. so it mean the advance version come more costly. ????


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## KS

Hey guys...jus 1 clarification..

wat model of the Super Hornet is in the fray..?
is it the single seater E mode or two seater F model..?


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## Dash

Its the two seater mode what they are offering


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## jha

Google Translate


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## jha

*Eurofighter still a &#8220;Big Disappointment &#8220;for its Operators*

Austria was the first country out of the Consortium of countries and Manufactures (Britain, Germany, Spain and Italy) to order Typhoon as its new air defense aircraft. Initial orders where reduced from 18 to 15 and Aircrafts where ordered in 2003.

First aircraft was delivered in mid-2007 and other started arriving soon after. Even after three years of it operational life in Austrian Air force most of fifteen jets are still grounded. Austrian army chiefs and Social Democratic (SP&#214 Defence Minister Norbert Darabos have been under fire from countries opposition parties regarding these matters.

Eurofighter GmbH the parent company which manufactures this aircrafts has been severely criticized by its own air forces which operate them, UK is already in the process on reducing the numbers of jets it has ordered.

Saudi Arabia which has been sold 72 of these jets, almost 50 of these jets will have limited Ground attack capabilities since they are from Tranche 1 and Tranche 2 batch, Expert believe that this deal was done to close UK Serious Fraud Office investigation into the Al Yamamah (&#8221;the dove&#8221 defense deals which commenced in the 1980s.

Singapore went on to buy the F-15 due to uncertainty over Typhoon tranche 2 delivery dates.

Issues which Bae Hawks have still not been sorted out and this has affected whole pilot training program of Indian air force.

Eurofighter still a ?Big Disappointment ?for its Operators idrw.org

---------- Post added at 11:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:43 PM ----------

*Eurofighter still a Big Disappointment for its Operators*

Austria was the first country out of the Consortium of countries and Manufactures (Britain, Germany, Spain and Italy) to order Typhoon as its new air defense aircraft. Initial orders where reduced from 18 to 15 and Aircrafts where ordered in 2003.

First aircraft was delivered in mid-2007 and other started arriving soon after. Even after three years of it operational life in Austrian Air force most of fifteen jets are still grounded. Austrian army chiefs and Social Democratic (SPÖ) Defence Minister Norbert Darabos have been under fire from countries opposition parties regarding these matters.

Eurofighter GmbH the parent company which manufactures this aircrafts has been severely criticized by its own air forces which operate them, UK is already in the process on reducing the numbers of jets it has ordered.

Saudi Arabia which has been sold 72 of these jets, almost 50 of these jets will have limited Ground attack capabilities since they are from Tranche 1 and Tranche 2 batch, Expert believe that this deal was done to close UK Serious Fraud Office investigation into the Al Yamamah (the dove) defense deals which commenced in the 1980s.

Singapore went on to buy the F-15 due to uncertainty over Typhoon tranche 2 delivery dates.

Issues which Bae Hawks have still not been sorted out and this has affected whole pilot training program of Indian air force.

Eurofighter still a ?Big Disappointment ?for its Operators idrw.org


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## Dash

> Singapore went on to buy the F-15 due to uncertainty over Typhoon tranche 2 delivery dates.



Eurofighter is not turning out to be a good platform. Be it BAE systems and its issues or AESA radar, limited A2G capability....

Rafale seems the best I guess and it is only fighter which has improved in all areas in equal pace.....


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## jha

^^^ Rafale is said to be under powered, so cant call it the best platform...

only disadvantage with SH is that this is american, otherwise this is reasonably good platform...plus there is a candy of GROWLERs with it...


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## jha

*Gripen Supercruises*


During a test flight today the Gripen Demo aircraft proved its ability to Supercruise, the ability to fly supersonic without the use of afterburner which results in fuel savings and an increase in range.



1/21/2009 | During last Autumn, the Gripen Demo performed 40 sorties as part of the development programme that focuses on opening up the flight envelope regarding speed, altitude, angle-of-attack and loads. This year, the testing has continued at the same high tempo. Todays supercruise flight is part of the ongoing high speed supersonic testing that will include supersonic flights, with different load alternatives.
Saab test pilot Magnus Ljungdahl flew the Gripen Demonstrator aircraft in supercruise.
The flight was conducted over the Baltic Sea, my altitude was 28, 000 feet and the speed achieved was above Mach 1.2. Without using afterburner I maintained the same speed until I ran out of test area and had to head back to the Saab Test Flight Centre in Linköping.


To show potential customers that Gripen can supercruise is an important milestone, said Gripen International Marketing Director Bob Kemp, and to perform this activity only nine months after the Gripen Demonstrator was shown in public for the first time, is something that few, if any aircraft can beat.
The Gripen Demo aircraft is a flying test platform for the next generation of Gripen and for the further development of the present Gripen C/D aircraft. Together with a ground-based test rig, the Gripen Demonstrator will develop and prove the essential systems and capabilities for the future, including its more powerful General Electric F414G engine, an Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar, advanced communications and electronic warfare systems.

Gripen - The wings of your nation - Gripen Supercruises

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## Dash

> ^^^ Rafale is said to be under powered, so cant call it the best platform...
> 
> only disadvantage with SH is that this is american, otherwise this is reasonably good platform...plus there is a candy of GROWLERs with it...



What I basically meant was thats only plane which is equaly capable in all aspects. While some are good in A2A and some good in A2G.
This is one platform which is fair in the above two roles.

Though its a little underpowered, I have read somewhere that post 2010 they will come with 90 Kn thurst.

Though F-18 is a very good plane, but it compromises manueverability and orginally designed for A2G roles.

And as far as growlers are considered, I dont think we will geta hand on it, as US gov has not noded it for sale yet.

I looked at the need for IAF and I thought Rafale is best for its omnirole ability.
Typhoon is good, but yet a controversial plane.


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## nakodo

IAF team flies Gripen Demo in Sweden with operational AESA radar
[Gripen Missile options] 21 Apr 2010 8ak: One of the few benefits of the ongoing flight ban over parts of Europe meant that 8ak got extra time when we caught up with Eddy de la Motte, Director India for Gripen (Saab). Mr Motte confirmed that India had sent an IAF team to Sweden 2 weeks ago and flew the Gripen Demo making it the only foreign air force to have flown the advanced version of Saab's Gripen Demonstrator. IAF pilots did about 10 flights in Linkoping. Mr Motte said that in mid-May 2010 the Gripen Demonstrator will be sent to India and confirmed that the Gripen Demo was flown with a fully operational AESA radar developed jointly by Selex and Saab Microwave (Formerly Ericsson Microwave).

There was some controversy last month when the FMV (Swedish Defence Materiel Administration) blocked Saab from sending the Gripen Demo fighter to India on the basis that the only plane was needed by the Swedish Air Force for further testing. The RFP for the MMRCA states that the plane offered in response to the tender should be the one that is used for trials but as per Ajai Shukla, the IAF+MoD will give Saab some leeway in this. While this may cause the competitors to cry foul, it is a good sign that the IAF+MoD are using their discretion, where allowed, to assist them selecting the best fighter and this could work to advantage of others as well. For example, Eurofighter, for one is hoping that the dreaded 'L1' (lowest bidder) clause would not be the deciding factor where multiple fighters qualify in the final round. 

To clarify, Saab's Gripen aircraft has 4 versions from A to D, then comes the Gripen Demo which is a demonstrator aircraft (and hence different to Gripen D) for the next generation version planned for India interchangeably called the Gripen NG or IN.

To date, Saab has conducted about 20 flights in India, mostly in Bangalore's Aircraft Systems & Testing Establishment (ASTE) where 2 Gripen-D fighters did low-level, high-speed supersonic tests. In Jaisalmer the 2 aircraft did a weapons release test and one aircraft sent to Leh did landing, engine cold start and take off with full internal fuel plus 2.6 tonnes external load.

Manu Sood, Editor, 8ak mentioned that the American components in the Gripen, mainly the GE F414 engine, is viewed by India as its biggest drawback. Motte said that if that was a genuine concern, then India would not have bought the P-8i and C-130-J aircraft which will play a crucial role in future conflicts and the IAF would not have considered the two U.S. fighters in the MMRCA competition nor the same GE F414 engine for its Tejas LCA which is now in the final stages of a race between that and the Eurojet 200. 

Asked what he thinks is Saab&#8217;s strongest point, he said "Gripen is the only option that will make India completely independent of the need to purchase combat aircraft from other countries. Gripen IN is equipped with futuristic warfare technologies developed specifically for India and a perfect match to the IAF". He further mentioned that the low operational cost will translate in to more training hours and he believes Saab is the only company to not only offer a complete ToT on the source codes of the AESA radar (though Russia has promised something similar) but also joint development.

Saab did not comment on the issue of revising the bid price. Earlier AviationWeek had reported that since the commercial bids were valid for 2 years ending Apr 28, 2010, this meant that the vendors could now revise their commercial bids. Given the worsening economic situation globally and huge competitive pressure on this large and geo-politically important deal, surprisingly it means that the bids would be revised downwards! However, a person familiar with defence acquisition told 8ak that "sometimes a simple procedure like collecting certificates from vendors saying we are ready to give the same price also fulfils the need".







8ak - Indian Defence News


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## CONNAN

CAESAR radar installed on a Eurofighter Typhoon after successful tests


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## deepakaviator

Eurofighter is offering the Tranche-3 Typhoon for the Indian requirement, equipped with the Captor-E (CAESAR) AESA radar. EADS has invited India to become a partner of the Eurofighter Typhoon programme if the Typhoon wins the contract, and will be given technological and development participation in future tranches of the Typhoon.[28] Bernhard Gerwert, CEO of EADS Defense Department, elaborated that if India becomes the fifth partner of the Eurofighter programme, it will be able to manufacture assemblies for new Eurofighters.[29]
In January 2010, EADS offered to include thrust vectoring nozzles (TVNs) with the Typhoon's EJ200 engines for India. Thrust vectoring will improve operational capabilities, and reduce fuel burn by up to 5 percent and increase thrust while supersonic cruising by 7 percent.[30]


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## deepakaviator

According to Air Chief Marshal P.V. Naik, all the aircraft tested so far "are going neck and neck". On 23 January 2010, India's ambassador to Italy stated that the Eurofighter Typhoon was in the lead.[74]


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## MZUBAIR

MRCA first post was on 11-23-2005, 10:46 AM.

Its 23rd April 2010..............After almost 5 years.....still not confident wt to buy


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## nakodo

MZUBAIR said:


> MRCA first post was on 11-23-2005, 10:46 AM.
> 
> Its 23rd April 2010..............After almost 5 years.....still not confident wt to buy



it is only slightly better than no choice in wt to buy, but it may be difficult to comprehend for people that run their AF like a charity. Donate pliss.


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## deepakaviator

MZUBAIR said:


> MRCA first post was on 11-23-2005, 10:46 AM.
> 
> Its 23rd April 2010..............After almost 5 years.....still not confident wt to buy



It's a deal of 200 odd 4.5 generation fighters... so plz refrain...


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## KEETARP

LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence: *Gripen Nervous About Ferrying Demo Aircraft To India, But Confident Of Repeat Performance In MMRCA Trials*

The Indian Air Force evaluation team that was in Europe for phase-3 flight evaluation trials (FETs) of the Eurofighter Typhoon and Gripen Demo was stranded on the continent by the Icelandic ash cloud. Not sure if they're back yet, but they had a fantastic time in Linkoping, Sweden, during the first week of this month when a member of the IAF team became the first non-Swedish pilot to fly the Gripen Demo from the front cockpit. The team had eight flights in the aicraft, and will fly it again next month. The Gripen Demo will touch down in Jamnagar on May 17, after which the IAF will decide the sequence of trials the airplane will be put through.

While the Gripen people are still basking in the rumours and feedback about how well their pair of Gripen-Ds performed during the India phase of the evaluations, the team is palpably nervous about ferrying the Gripen Demo to India. Met up with Gripen's MMRCA campaign head Eddy de la Motte a couple of days ago .He told me, "While we are very confident that the Demo will perform perfectly in what is demanded of it, we hope there are no problems in bringing it to India. We will be hopping it across from Sweden to India. We don't foresee any problems, but it is after all a prototype, and we can't be too careful." The IAF is likely to put the Gripen Demo through the full gamut of trials in Bangalore, Jaisalmer and Leh, though probably not in that order. In many ways, evaluating the Gripen Demo will be like testing an entirely different airplane, substantively different as it is from the original that flew in India last month.

The first down-select in the MMRCA is scheduled to take place by October this year.

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## ramu

Yeh baby ... Gripen it will be ... atleast that is what I hope ...


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## jha

*Meteor on Gripen now has 'go to war' capability *



Jane's has reported that Sweden is accelerating plans to fully integrate the MBDA Meteor Beyond Visual Range Air-to-Air Missile (BVRAAM) on the Gripen. Rapid availability of the Meteor is seen as a key capability for export customers. Swedish programme sources have told Jane's that a lot of development work has already been completed with Gripen and that the missile is now functional on the Swedish fighter, with a 'go to war' capability available today.

Meteor is a European collaborative programme between the United Kingdom, France, Italy, Spain, Sweden and Germany. The missile is planned to be the primary BVR air-to-air missile for all the modern European fighter aircraft; Gripen, Eurofighter and Rafale.

Saab became involved in the Meteor programme as early as 2003, when Saab Bofors Dynamics was awarded a contract to develop and produce the prototype of the missile. The same year, Saab Aerosystems was awarded a contract for the integration of Meteor on the Gripen. Saab therefore plays a key and prominent role within the Meteor programme.

Gripen is the first and so far only fighter aircraft which has air-launched the Meteor missile. The first Air Launched Demonstration firing took place in 2006.

While the UK is leading the Meteor development programme, all airborne test work to date has used Swedish assets because of a series of delays with other intended test platforms, chiefly the Eurofighter Typhoon. The UK Ministry of Defence (MoD) has now acknowledged a previously unreported Meteor firing that took place in 2009. An MoD statement to Jane's said the test "was was conducted on 3 June 2009 from a Gripen aircraft against a Mirach subscale target at the Hebrides range. This firing successfully tested the ability of the missile to acquire and track a target at low altitude with a sea clutter background. This was the first trial using the pre-production standard of hardware".

To date six Meteor firings have been acknowledged since May 2006 - all undertaken by Saab Gripens. By the end of 2009 Meteor form-and-fit checks had been made with the Tornado and by February 2010 captive carriage tests with dummy missiles were being flown.

In March 2010 QinetiQ's primary Tornado testbed (ZE203) completed Meteor ejection release trials to prove safe separation with dummy missiles. The first launch of a live missile is expected as early as May.
Meanwhile, Sweden is pressing ahead with its Meteor integration plans and Saab looks set to be the first aircraft manufacturer with a functional, available Meteor capability. Swedish programme officials have told Jane's that the June 2009 guided firing proved a workable integration of the missile with the Gripen is now "in place and more or less operational".

To deliver a complete integration requires further envelope clearance on Gripen's pylon Nos 2 and 3, plus further refinement to radar modes, mission software and cockpit displays. Ideally, this work would be aligned with the Gripen's regular software update schedule and would appear as part of the coming E20 edition. The current E19 edition is fully compatible with the Meteor.

Meteor is claimed to have between three and six times the kinematic performance of any current missile of its type. The firing was carried out from a Saab Gripen aircraft against a MQM-107B &#8216;Streaker&#8217; high-subsonic subscale aerial target. The missile test firing concludes a series of development firings to prove the overall performance of the missile and its various subsystems in terms of guidance, propulsion, data link and fuse.

The key to Meteor&#8217;s outstanding performance is the rocket motor. For the first time a solid fuel ramjet is being used to propel a missile. Already proven in earlier test firings, the unique solid fuel throttleable ducted rocket gives Meteor the ability to maintain high speed all the way to the target aircraft, making evasion virtually pointless.

Approximately five further firings are planned in Sweden to complete the Gripen integration. Programme officials believe that this work could be underlining what has been achieved already. The report states that Swedish programme sources state that all basic requirements to have Meteor functional on Gripen have been met, including launchers, data linking, bus traffic, safe separation. 

GRIPEN INDIA: Meteor on Gripen now has 'go to war' capability

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## KEETARP

jha said:


> *Meteor on Gripen now has 'go to war' capability *
> 
> 
> 
> Jane's has reported that Sweden is accelerating plans to fully integrate the MBDA Meteor Beyond Visual Range Air-to-Air Missile (BVRAAM) on the Gripen. Rapid availability of the Meteor is seen as a key capability for export customers. Swedish programme sources have told Jane's that a lot of development work has already been completed with Gripen and that the missile is now functional on the Swedish fighter, with a 'go to war' capability available today.
> 
> Meteor is a European collaborative programme between the United Kingdom, France, Italy, Spain, Sweden and Germany. The missile is planned to be the primary BVR air-to-air missile for all the modern European fighter aircraft; Gripen, Eurofighter and Rafale.
> 
> Saab became involved in the Meteor programme as early as 2003, when Saab Bofors Dynamics was awarded a contract to develop and produce the prototype of the missile. The same year, Saab Aerosystems was awarded a contract for the integration of Meteor on the Gripen. Saab therefore plays a key and prominent role within the Meteor programme.
> 
> Gripen is the first and so far only fighter aircraft which has air-launched the Meteor missile. The first Air Launched Demonstration firing took place in 2006.
> 
> While the UK is leading the Meteor development programme, all airborne test work to date has used Swedish assets because of a series of delays with other intended test platforms, chiefly the Eurofighter Typhoon. The UK Ministry of Defence (MoD) has now acknowledged a previously unreported Meteor firing that took place in 2009. An MoD statement to Jane's said the test "was was conducted on 3 June 2009 from a Gripen aircraft against a Mirach subscale target at the Hebrides range. This firing successfully tested the ability of the missile to acquire and track a target at low altitude with a sea clutter background. This was the first trial using the pre-production standard of hardware".
> 
> To date six Meteor firings have been acknowledged since May 2006 - all undertaken by Saab Gripens. By the end of 2009 Meteor form-and-fit checks had been made with the Tornado and by February 2010 captive carriage tests with dummy missiles were being flown.
> 
> In March 2010 QinetiQ's primary Tornado testbed (ZE203) completed Meteor ejection release trials to prove safe separation with dummy missiles. The first launch of a live missile is expected as early as May.
> Meanwhile, Sweden is pressing ahead with its Meteor integration plans and Saab looks set to be the first aircraft manufacturer with a functional, available Meteor capability. Swedish programme officials have told Jane's that the June 2009 guided firing proved a workable integration of the missile with the Gripen is now "in place and more or less operational".
> 
> To deliver a complete integration requires further envelope clearance on Gripen's pylon Nos 2 and 3, plus further refinement to radar modes, mission software and cockpit displays. Ideally, this work would be aligned with the Gripen's regular software update schedule and would appear as part of the coming E20 edition. The current E19 edition is fully compatible with the Meteor.
> 
> Meteor is claimed to have between three and six times the kinematic performance of any current missile of its type. The firing was carried out from a Saab Gripen aircraft against a MQM-107B &#8216;Streaker&#8217; high-subsonic subscale aerial target. The missile test firing concludes a series of development firings to prove the overall performance of the missile and its various subsystems in terms of guidance, propulsion, data link and fuse.
> 
> The key to Meteor&#8217;s outstanding performance is the rocket motor. For the first time a solid fuel ramjet is being used to propel a missile. Already proven in earlier test firings, the unique solid fuel throttleable ducted rocket gives Meteor the ability to maintain high speed all the way to the target aircraft, making evasion virtually pointless.
> 
> Approximately five further firings are planned in Sweden to complete the Gripen integration. Programme officials believe that this work could be underlining what has been achieved already. The report states that Swedish programme sources state that all basic requirements to have Meteor functional on Gripen have been met, including launchers, data linking, bus traffic, safe separation.
> 
> GRIPEN INDIA: Meteor on Gripen now has 'go to war' capability



I hope IAF evaluation team when reaches Sweden after this volcano ash settles down as they are stranded in midway , get to fire METEOR on Gripen . That would be just the final impetus that would seal deal in favour of Swedes.


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## KEETARP

F16 Jets: To Buy or Not to Buy | OPEN Magazine

US SETTING THE PITCH FOR MMRCA BY OFFERING JETS VIA FMS TO INDIA DIRECTLY.

At $12 billion, this is the biggest defence deal in the world. Ranged against each other are six of the world&#8217;s best fighter aircraft&#8212;the Russian MiG-35, American F-16 and F-18, Sweden&#8217;s Gripen, French Rafale and the European consortium EADS&#8217;s Eurofighter Typhoon&#8212;as the Indian Air Force (IAF) closes in on choosing 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft through a global tender. But the US, keen on altering the rules of the game, is pressuring India to forgo the tendering process and instead go in for a single-vendor deal under what it terms a &#8216;foreign military sale&#8217; (FMS), leaving India to choose only between the F-16 and F-18.

It was in 2008, when bids were first submitted, that the US Defense Secretary Robert Gates had first written to India&#8217;s Ministry of Defence, suggesting such a course. Now Vice Admiral Jeffrey A Wieringa, director of the US Defense Security Cooperation Agency, has again written to the Ministry. Significantly, this is the first time that the US has responded to a global tender for an Indian defence deal. And its preference for the FMS route is more than obvious, unlike the Soviets earlier or Russians now, who, despite being India&#8217;s largest suppliers through its history, have never insisted on such strings attached.

An FMS would involve a government-to-government agreement on a contract without an open tender, which would ease the transfer of critical technologies, thus hastening the process. The flip side is that it is bound to raise expenses, which would obviate the entire rationale of a global tender which allows for open trials to meet the IAF&#8217;s requirements. Apart from restricting choices, such a deal would also let the US dictate a set of other terms, under a maintenance and usage clause, in contrast with the current scenario in which any supplier selected will have to meet terms of the tender as specified by India.

In his letter to the Ministry last month, Wieringa is said to have pitched hard for the 126-fighter deal&#8212;trials for which are in full swing, though delayed by a month. Four of the six aircraft in contention have completed their three-phase trials, while two are still undergoing them (likely to be done by the end of next month).

The Ministry has received letters from government representatives on behalf of other aircraft in the fray as well, but South Block is understood to have turned down these requests, preferring to adhere strictly to the transparency clause of the Defence Procurement Procedure.

Remember how the Comptroller and Auditor General (Cag) had raised the issue of US restrictions on offensive deployment of the landing platform dock ship USS Trenton, bought earlier by the Indian Navy? The Cag questioned India&#8217;s acquiescence to a US directive on inventory inspection of all articles transferred under the &#8216;end user monitoring&#8217; clause, and the Left had slammed the Government for the clause&#8217;s figuring in the Trenton deal. Now the clause assumes heightened importance, given all the big ticket deals in the pipeline right now.

America&#8217;s end user monitoring mechanisms, which call for the regular physical inspection of military supplies by the US government, have been a sticking point in several Indo-US defence deals in the past as well. In June last year, it took many rounds of hard negotiation to sort out the monitoring of Boeing Business Jets procured by India for the use of the President and PM. The clause finally agreed upon by the National Security Advisor enables the US to inspect these VVIP aircraft once a year.

But this one-time agreement was not enough to sort out issues with monitoring in general. Vice Admiral Wieringa had played an important role last year when the mechanism had hit a roadblock; once a draft of the clause sent by Washington was rejected by the Ministry for infringing Indian sovereignty, he proposed that sample versions of text signed by the US with other countries be made available to South Block, for reference. Mutually agreed changes were made before the clause was finally signed by both countries last year during US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton&#8217;s visit to India.

On an average, India&#8217;s defence deals with Russia are worth an estimated $1.5 billion annually, and with Israel, about $1 billion. With the US, India has done defence business worth only $4 billion over the past eight years. But that figure could spike sharply upwards.








Guys , I am getting worried abt US twisting , i mean this FMS route will lurch MoD to seriously consider it + it would be easy for US to offer sophisticated tech . I mean this will ensure US as winner.
Secondly as shortlist date is coming , i am sure US will lure India more by offering Source codes and full Radar info and we will be trapped.
I have seen enough type of last minute sweetening done in BRAZIL , 50&#37; discount + full TOT etc . 
Just hope that shortlist is Fair and unbiased and without US influence .
Gripen my bet ,


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## Mahakaya

LT.PRATEEK said:


> F16 Jets: To Buy or Not to Buy | OPEN Magazine
> 
> US SETTING THE PITCH FOR MMRCA BY OFFERING JETS VIA FMS TO INDIA DIRECTLY.
> 
> At $12 billion, this is the biggest defence deal in the world. Ranged against each other are six of the worlds best fighter aircraftthe Russian MiG-35, American F-16 and F-18, Swedens Gripen, French Rafale and the European consortium EADSs Eurofighter Typhoonas the Indian Air Force (IAF) closes in on choosing 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft through a global tender. But the US, keen on altering the rules of the game, is pressuring India to forgo the tendering process and instead go in for a single-vendor deal under what it terms a foreign military sale (FMS), leaving India to choose only between the F-16 and F-18.
> 
> It was in 2008, when bids were first submitted, that the US Defense Secretary Robert Gates had first written to Indias Ministry of Defence, suggesting such a course. Now Vice Admiral Jeffrey A Wieringa, director of the US Defense Security Cooperation Agency, has again written to the Ministry. Significantly, this is the first time that the US has responded to a global tender for an Indian defence deal. And its preference for the FMS route is more than obvious, unlike the Soviets earlier or Russians now, who, despite being Indias largest suppliers through its history, have never insisted on such strings attached.
> 
> An FMS would involve a government-to-government agreement on a contract without an open tender, which would ease the transfer of critical technologies, thus hastening the process. The flip side is that it is bound to raise expenses, which would obviate the entire rationale of a global tender which allows for open trials to meet the IAFs requirements. Apart from restricting choices, such a deal would also let the US dictate a set of other terms, under a maintenance and usage clause, in contrast with the current scenario in which any supplier selected will have to meet terms of the tender as specified by India.
> 
> In his letter to the Ministry last month, Wieringa is said to have pitched hard for the 126-fighter dealtrials for which are in full swing, though delayed by a month. Four of the six aircraft in contention have completed their three-phase trials, while two are still undergoing them (likely to be done by the end of next month).
> 
> The Ministry has received letters from government representatives on behalf of other aircraft in the fray as well, but South Block is understood to have turned down these requests, preferring to adhere strictly to the transparency clause of the Defence Procurement Procedure.
> 
> Remember how the Comptroller and Auditor General (Cag) had raised the issue of US restrictions on offensive deployment of the landing platform dock ship USS Trenton, bought earlier by the Indian Navy? The Cag questioned Indias acquiescence to a US directive on inventory inspection of all articles transferred under the end user monitoring clause, and the Left had slammed the Government for the clauses figuring in the Trenton deal. Now the clause assumes heightened importance, given all the big ticket deals in the pipeline right now.
> 
> Americas end user monitoring mechanisms, which call for the regular physical inspection of military supplies by the US government, have been a sticking point in several Indo-US defence deals in the past as well. In June last year, it took many rounds of hard negotiation to sort out the monitoring of Boeing Business Jets procured by India for the use of the President and PM. The clause finally agreed upon by the National Security Advisor enables the US to inspect these VVIP aircraft once a year.
> 
> But this one-time agreement was not enough to sort out issues with monitoring in general. Vice Admiral Wieringa had played an important role last year when the mechanism had hit a roadblock; once a draft of the clause sent by Washington was rejected by the Ministry for infringing Indian sovereignty, he proposed that sample versions of text signed by the US with other countries be made available to South Block, for reference. Mutually agreed changes were made before the clause was finally signed by both countries last year during US Secretary of State Hillary Clintons visit to India.
> 
> On an average, Indias defence deals with Russia are worth an estimated $1.5 billion annually, and with Israel, about $1 billion. With the US, India has done defence business worth only $4 billion over the past eight years. But that figure could spike sharply upwards.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Guys , I am getting worried abt US twisting , i mean this FMS route will lurch MoD to seriously consider it + it would be easy for US to offer sophisticated tech . I mean this will ensure US as winner.
> Secondly as shortlist date is coming , i am sure US will lure India more by offering Source codes and full Radar info and we will be trapped.
> I have seen enough type of last minute sweetening done in BRAZIL , 50% discount + full TOT etc .
> Just hope that shortlist is Fair and unbiased and without US influence .
> Gripen my bet ,



Well I would say I trust MS and his aids - I mean the FMS route is not happening cos that would piss off the RUSSIANS, the FRENCH and everyone else.

Given the current relations that we have with the US under the Obama government a deal with the United States looks wonky at best but then again I would not be surprised if we got through.

In fact the latest statement made by Nirupama Roy in one way if you were to read between the lines emphasizes that till last year the commitment was all towards the American Jets (and the tender was a sham) but it also signals a shift in policy now and the tender is still alive and kicking.

It is too hard to predict. But if the IAF places the SH, EF and Rafale then I as an India will be satisfied by either of the three joining our armed forces. I will personally like Rafale then EF and then SH to win, but then again if we need to show the US that we are doing them a BIG FAVOUR then SH can be chosen (more so if US shifts it policies towards India similar to the Bush era)


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## duhastmish

If it was for bush era, i would expect a very sweet deal may be a , fa -18 super hornet with growler and source code and good amount of TOT. Also shifting of major production unit in india. and offer to get in to f-35 as an equal partner and share technology. 

that would have kicked pak-fa out but who knows ........ 

that would have made indo - us relation closer than ever.


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## sudhir007

---------- Post added at 07:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:26 PM ----------

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## syntax_error

offtopic but ...
lol he has 1 more *questions*


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## ejaz007

Latest update about the MRCA:

*April 28/10:*

No decision for you. India needs to extend its competition for a year, because competitor flight trials wont be finished until some time in May 2010. Today was to be the deadline and bid expiry, 2 years after accepting price quotes. Indias Defense Ministry has asked manufacturers to submit offers for an additional year. Flight trials remain underway at 3 key locations: near Leh, high in the Himalayas; a desert base in Rajasthan; and Bangalores tropical climate. The expectation is that the IAF will provide the government with 2-3 accetable options, then let the politicians pick.

Lockheed Martin (F-16 Block 60+) and Boeing (F/A-18 E/F Super Hornet) have said that they are modifying their bids, Swedens Saab (JAS-39NG) plans to extend its bid unchanged, and Dassault (Rafale), EADS (Eurofighter), and RAC-MiG (MiG-35) have made no public commitment one way or another. This 1-year delay could raise costs, but more favorable exchange rates could shift prices the other way. It also gives competitors who have deepened their Indian partnerships the ability to revise that information in their offer.

From the MMRCA bid due date of April 28/08 to April 28/10, the US dollar has risen against Indias rupee about 10.5%, while the Euro has become 6% cheaper, and the Russian rouble has become 11.6% cheaper.

India&#8217;s MMRCA Fighter Competition

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## sirius4u

LT.PRATEEK said:


> Guys , I am getting worried abt US twisting , i mean this FMS route will lurch MoD to seriously consider it + it would be easy for US to offer sophisticated tech . I mean this will ensure US as winner.
> Secondly as shortlist date is coming , i am sure US will lure India more by offering Source codes and full Radar info and we will be trapped.
> I have seen enough type of last minute sweetening done in BRAZIL , 50% discount + full TOT etc .
> Just hope that shortlist is Fair and unbiased and without US influence .
> Gripen my bet ,




How do you say that we will be trapped...?

Full TOT + source codes + full radar info= Very good deal...

I ll be happy with it... 

Or is there any problem regarding this? Seniors, plz help me...


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## KEETARP

sirius4u said:


> *How do you say that we will be trapped...?*
> 
> Full TOT + source codes + full radar info= *Very good deal...*
> 
> I ll be happy with it...
> 
> Or is there any problem regarding this? Seniors, plz help me...



Try and read something on *EUMA * , its various clauses .

May be for intro this link will help- 
Under pressure, India agrees to sign EUMA | India Defence Online

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## sirius4u

Now that helped a lot.... Thanx mate...


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## ejaz007

duhastmish said:


> If it was for bush era, i would expect a very sweet deal may be a , fa -18 super hornet with growler and source code and good amount of TOT. Also shifting of major production unit in india. and offer to get in to f-35 as an equal partner and share technology.
> 
> that would have kicked pak-fa out but who knows ........
> 
> that would have made indo - us relation closer than ever.



Russians stand to gain the most because the bidders have been asked to revalidate their bids. With Russian currency devaluing more than 11% they can afford to reduce the price.


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## sudhir007

LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence: Nervous Indian Oil Corp Refuses To "Hot Refuel" Gripen During MMRCA Evaluation Tests

*Nervous Indian Oil Corp Refuses To "Hot Refuel" Gripen During MMRCA Evaluation Tests*







The Gripen team in India is understood to have tried hard to push for the chance to demonstrate the fighter's "hot refuelling" capability, but was unable to do so after Indian Oil Aviation -- the standard supplier of aviation fuel to the Indian Air Force -- refused to be part of such an exercise. Hot refueling is a process by which a fighter is refuelled (in between sorties) while its engines are still on, thereby cutting down refuelling time by half and turn-around time significantly -- a capacity highly desirable in a combat situation, which basically puts aside the need for a pilot to park the aircraft, power down and exit the cockpit for refuelling to begin.

According to sources, the Gripen team was very keen to demonstrate the hot refuelling capability -- even the IAF had no problems witnessing the demonstration even though it wasn't required as part of the tests -- but the offer was shot down by Indian Oil, which said it had never conducted a hot refueling operation before, and wasn't sure it was equipped to take the risk, despite assurances from Saab that it was standard practice with the Gripen. Hot refueling, it must be said, does have its share of risks.

The incident has, however, had its effect. The IAF is now keen to witness a hot refueling demonstration, and will look favourably upon such a capability in its final evaluation of the MMRCA competition. Also, it has requested Indian Oil Aviation to set about getting itself certified for hot refueling ops for the future. IOC will need to look abroad for any sort of certification. Hot refueling trucks and crews in the US, for example, receive special training and certification from an agency in the USAF command structure.


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## jha

Gripen is increasingly becoming my favorite...


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## sudhir007

jha said:


> Gripen is increasingly becoming my favorite...


me too!!! but i m worry about lca if it will selected then may be IAF not keen to interest in lca. coze of commonality of both a/c


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## jha

^^^ in fact this is the reason i like it even more...since it will come with TOT LCA MK-2 can be brought sooner incorporating the new techs of GRIPEN...otherwise there is no need to tell about the time management of our govt. agencies..


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## Just Yash

jha said:


> Gripen is increasingly becoming my favorite...



Hi, Jha..

i am new here and my name is Yash.

I am following this tread since long time.

No doubt that Gripen is good plane but it's like Switze Knife, small,beautiful and seems to do every thing. But it cant do any thing vary Well just like Gripen.

Gripen cant offer us Full Tot because Engine, Radar and other vital components are from BAE and USA.

It can't take much pay load at higher Range because it's have One Small engine...

Just Give Our LCA little Bit More time and I am Sure Our own war bird will be as potent as Gripen.


----------



## gogbot

ejaz007 said:


> Russians stand to gain the most because the bidders have been asked to revalidate their bids. With Russian currency devaluing more than 11% they can afford to reduce the price.



Really , that is valuable info.

we ahas see how IAF reacts.

But the US bid's are also changing

SAAB will make no change

and the Europeans have yet to make any public statements.

Let us see what happens.

Given that the eruo is in trouble , i am hopping for a decrease in price of the EF and RAF


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## KEETARP

They have tried to push the limits of Indian Capability, whether that has impressed IAF is a big ?

Do other aircrafts in contention will give similar capability?

Gripen does give a Lethal Punch for Bucks they are charging , but will it completely rule the sky and provide defence for Indian borders against all Threats. 
Remember there is no second place when it comes to air Battle.

By the way _ My fav is also Gripen . 
Reason - Experience which i had on its simulator at Aero-India and not bcoz of specs or capability.


----------



## KS

LT.PRATEEK said:


> Try and read something on *EUMA * , its various clauses .
> 
> May be for intro this link will help-
> Under pressure, India agrees to sign EUMA | India Defence Online



Hi prateek.....this EUMA we have to sign for all the purchases from US like the light artillery,C-17 etc or only if we choose F-16 or F-18.

nd signing this amounts to selling our soveriegnity isnt it..?
I Dont think India will agree to it as BJP and Communists will slit literally the the throat of congress.


----------



## KEETARP

No , EUMA is must for Purchasing *any* sophisticated Military equipment under FMS/or Mult-vendor tender route.

Even for C17 and C130 , bcoz some of the defensive suite are under the clause.

If you dont sign it , it will be impossible to receive something like APG-80 radar from US.

See if you look carefully - 
Some of the objections of India were valid and were recognized by US also, 
use of those equipments by US forces in time of Emergency.
like inspection of forward-active bases and monitoring the jets etc

But ,I think Various Sections were modified accordingly and Deal was signed when *Hilary Clinton* was here.
Some of them - *Critical (CEUSMA)* clauses have *not* been , lets wait and see who compromises more.

EDIT - Believe me , the Fisaco of INS JALSHAWA(USN TRENTON) has left such a bad 
effect on central gov and MoD dealings . Any further dealing will ensure full sovereignty of products


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## gogbot

Karthic Sri said:


> Hi prateek.....this EUMA we have to sign for all the purchases from US like the light artillery,C-17 etc or only if we choose F-16 or F-18.
> 
> nd signing this amounts to selling our soveriegnity isnt it..?
> I Dont think India will agree to it as BJP and Communists will slit literally the the throat of congress.



US is known to have made some concessions on the EUMA it self with regards to India.

But they wont sell to anyone unless they sign it.

And all contracts are subject based on the level of technology involved.


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## nakodo

LT.PRATEEK said:


> the Fisaco of INS JALSHAWA(USN TRENTON) has left such a bad
> effect on central gov and MoD dealings . Any further dealing will ensure full sovereignty of products



What is this fiasco?


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## KEETARP

Sorry-Typing mistake .

This touch-pad of Blackberry is hard to master. esp if you type fast.

Fi-as-co


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## sudhir007

is this will impact MRCA 


> The U.S. Navy and Boeing remain locked in intense discussions over the firm's proffered multiyear *deal to buy 124 F/A-18E/F Super Hornets and 24 E/A-18G Growlers, Navy officials said.*
> 
> The service has until May 1 to decide whether to buy the aircraft.
> Related Topics
> 
> "They're really still working it," said Navy spokesman Cmdr. Victor Chen late in the day on April 30. "It's been pretty intense though, I can tell you that."
> 
> In January, the Chicago-based defense giant made the offer after Congress authorized the sea service to buy the additional jets to offset a potential fighter gap that may occur toward the end of the decade.
> 
> Congress will allow the Navy to buy the jets if the service can reach a deal with Boeing that would save at least 10 percent on the standard cost of the plane. Boeing has said the offer meets that condition.
> 
> *The Navy is keeping its oldest F/A-18 Hornets flying past 10,000 flight hours*. Last month, DoD officials said the Navy would delay its F-35C Joint Strike Fighter initial operating capability date by two years to 2016.
> 
> Teal Group aviation analyst Richard Aboulafia on April 29 said buying the F-18s would "guarantee the [Super Hornet] production line and provide insurance against *further JSF delays and cost overruns and gives them a longer shot at export markets," especially since the Indian medium multirole combat aircraft competition has been delayed. *


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## Kinetic

^^^ I really like EA-18G. We should buy atleast 30 of this beast. It even killed F-22. Its EW and EA capabilities are amazing.

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## Just Yash

Kinetic said:


> ^^^ I really like EA-18G. We should buy atleast 30 of this beast. It even killed F-22. Its EW and EA capabilities are amazing.



i have heard regarding SH 18 G many time before. 

What is it?

and why it is so spacial. and how it can kill F22 because after all it's just F-18.


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## sirius4u

Just Yash said:


> i have heard regarding SH 18 G many time before.
> 
> What is it?
> 
> and why it is so spacial. and how it can kill F22 because after all it's just F-18.





> The EA-18G Growler is an electronic attack version of the F/A-18F. The Growler's flight performance is similar to that of the F/A-18E/F. This attribute enables the Growler to perform escort jamming as well as the traditional standoff jamming mission. Growlers will be able to accompany F/A-18s during all phases of an attack mission.
> 
> The Growler has more than 90&#37; in common with the standard Super Hornet, sharing airframe, Raytheon AN/APG-79 AESA radar and weapon systems such as the AN/AYK-22 Stores Management System. Most of the dedicated airborne electronic attack equipment is mounted in the space that used to house the internal 20 mm cannon and on the wingtips. Nine weapons stations remain free to provide for additional weapons or jamming pods.The added electronics include AN/ALQ-218 wideband receivers on the wingtips, and ALQ-99 high and low-band tactical jamming pods. The ALQ-218 combined with the ALQ-99 form a full spectrum electronic warfare suite that is able to provide detection and jamming against all known surface-to-air threats.
> 
> The EA-18G can be fitted with up to five ALQ-99 jamming pods and will typically add two AIM-120 self-defense missiles and two AGM-88 High Speed Anti-Radiation (HARM) missiles. The EA-18G will also use the INCANS Interference Cancellation system that will allow voice communication while jamming enemy communications, a capability not available on the EA-6B.
> 
> In addition to the radar warning and jamming equipment the Growler possesses a communications receiver and jamming system that will provide suppression and electronic attack against airborne communication threats.



And comin to the killing of f22, M not sure about that incident... Kinetic must elaborate on that...
It must definitely be something like the Growler jamming the F22 & definitely not in A2A combat...


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## Just Yash

sirius4u said:


> And comin to the killing of f22, M not sure about that incident... Kinetic must elaborate on that...
> It must definitely be something like the Growler jamming the F22 & definitely not in A2A combat...



Woooooooow....... thanks sirius bro.

Do we have any thing similar in our arsenal?
and ya if we choose F-18( I hope not so ) can we have F-18 G?


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## Kinetic

Just Yash said:


> i have heard regarding SH 18 G many time before.
> 
> What is it?
> 
> and why it is so spacial. and how it can kill F22 because after all it's just F-18.



Now its not just F-18 but Electronic Attack-18 Growler!!! 'sirius4u' mentioned about its capabilities.

About EA-18G kill F-22....



Do you need anything more? 

SU-30MKI along with EA-18G will be the best option for SEAD, escort and deep strike missions.


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## KEETARP

nakodo said:


> What is this fiasco?



Apology for replying Late-

I thought you were pointing about my spelling mistake , and i posted this silly post 
http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/4347-mrca-news-discussions-112.html#post826811

Well this fiasco was about CAG and security report bashing Indian Navy for purchasing INS JALSHAWA with so many restrictions on mode of operations and Range of operations in Blue water.
This was news, do read it very helpful indeed .
(One of the reasons i dont support F18 + Growler )

What is the End-Use Monitoring Agreement?: Rediff.com India News

Imp extract -



> The Indian government has embraced EUMA despite concerns expressed within the official establishment over its restrictive and invasive clauses.
> 
> For example, Navy chief Admiral Suresh Mehta had publicly described EUMA as 'intrusive.' Speaking at an April 2008 conference organised by the London-based International Strategic Studies Institute in New Delhi, Admiral Mehta said: 'There are certain things we can't agree to. As a sovereign nation, we can't accept intrusiveness into our system, so there is some fundamental difficulty.'
> 
> He added: 'The US may have this kind of (end user) agreements with everyone. I don't believe in that. We pay for something and we get some technology. What I do with it, is my thing.'
> 
> In fact, India's Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) in a March 2008 report criticized the end-use monitoring clauses in the contract for the USS Trenton/INS Jalashwa. (No sooner the US had transferred that transport ship to India than a gas leak killed an Indian officer and five sailors on board.)[&#8224;]
> 
> The CAG report stated: 'Restrictive clauses raise doubts about the real advantages from this deal... For example, (there are) restrictions on the offensive deployment of the ship and permission to the (US) government to conduct an inspection and inventory of all articles transferred under the end-use monitoring clause of the LOA (Letter of Offer and Acceptance issued by the US government).'
> 
> *Note that the contract contains even 'restrictions on the offensive deployment of the ship*.'

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## nakodo

LT.PRATEEK said:


> silly post



 never mind 



> Well this fiasco was about CAG and security report bashing Indian Navy for purchasing INS JALSHAWA with so many restrictions on mode of operations and Range of operations in Blue water.



This is news is news to me & I don't know what powers CAG has but it is a failing of the parliamentarians if they allowed this thru, only for a weaker agency like CAG to meekly protest it. Could it be just a token of friendship kind of purchase?


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## sirius4u

Just Yash said:


> Woooooooow....... thanks sirius bro.
> 
> Do we have any thing similar in our arsenal?
> and ya if we choose F-18( I hope not so ) can we have F-18 G?



No, we dont have any dedicated EW aircraft like the growler... 

But all of our combat aircraft are fitted with state of the art EW systems like Tranquil & Mayavi which are extremely capable and do fulfill our mission needs...

And to your second question, a big NOOOO...

We wont have the growler... We might if it was Bush's Admin... But its not...

And finally i really dont want to see an american plane wit IAF roundels...


----------



## Tejas-MkII

No delay in MMRCA tender process, says IAF Chief

*No delay in MMRCA tender process: IAF Chief*

New Delhi: The IAF has said there would be no delay in finalising the USD 11-billion 126 combat aircraft deal even though the two-year deadline for the bids submitted by six global aerospace majors ended last week. 

"As far as the process (finalising the tenders) is concerned, it is well on track as was visualised," IAF Chief Air Chief Marshal P V Naik said here on the sidelines of a function to unveil a portrait of Marshal of Air Force Arjan Singh at the Akash Mess yesterday. 

Naik said the process of evaluating the six contenders for the 'mother of all deals' would take time and it was not an easy task. 

*"I am very happy and proud of our people, who have done this (evaluation) on time. They will finish off (the flight and weapons trials) by end of May.* It will be a delay of about five or ten days. Our evaluation, testing is on schedule," he said, when asked if the deadline extension would delay the procurement process. 

For the tenders floated in August 2007, US majors Lockheed Martin and Boeing, Russian RAC MiG, French D'Assault, Swedish SAAB and European consortium EADS had submitted their bids. 

The companies have offered their F-16IN, F/A-18, MiG-35, Rafale, Gripen and Eurofighter Typhoon aircraft as the furture medium multirole combat aircraft for the IAF. 

While the IAF has completed the technical evaluation of the bids submitted by the companies in early 2008, the commercial bids were yet to be opened. 

The IAF began the flight and weapons evaluation of the six aircraft last year and is set to complete the trials by end of this month. 

However, the deadline for the commercial bids ended last week following which the Defence Ministry asked the companies to submit fresh bids or extend the deadline for their existing bids. 

> When asked about the deadline extension, Naik said, "Deadline expiry is a routine thing, which happens in quite a few cases. The deadline is extended (in such cases)." 

Meanwhile, senior IAF officials said they had set a timeline for three years since the tenders were issued to complete the process of evaluation of all the six aircraft in the fray. 

"This three-year deadline we will be able to meet," they said. To a query on the American Defence Security Cooperation Agency notifying the Congress on the possible sale of 10 Boeing C-17 transport aircraft to India through the Foreign Military Sales route, Naik said the IAF expects the US to send a Letter of Acceptance (LOA) soon. 

"They will send us a letter of LOA from their side and the progress will continue. We expect it shortly," he said. 

Earlier, Naik unveiled the portrait of Arjan Singh in the lobby of Akash Mess in the presence of the Marshal of the Air Force, his family members and artist Sanjay Bhattacharya, who had made the portrait. 

"It is a very special privilege. Marshal is the only five-star officer amongst all the three services in the country at present. He is an icon as far as the IAF is concerned. His exploits are very well known. So it is a privilege for us to have a picture of his in the Akash mess, which is a special Air Force mess," Naik said. 

Arjan Singh said the portrait was a recognition of the IAF's eight-decade contribution to the nation. 

"I think it is not about the Marshal, but recognition of the Air Force's eight-decade work. The Air Force has always helped the country in not only fighting the enemy but also in humanitarian work. I am quite sure that the IAF is really well-organised, well-trained, and will continue to serve the country," he said.

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## brahmastra

don't worry. we are buying F-18s.


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## Just Yash

brahmastra said:


> don't worry. we are buying F-18s.



NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO................................... 


I WANT...



Please. and if you want some money then just ask me...




Please.....


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## sirius4u

Does anyone here have any info regarding the followings...?
1. Production rate of typhoon....? Already so many orders... Will it affect us...?
2. Production rate of Gripen...? I really have no idea about it... 

Shed some light plz...


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## sirius4u

Defunct Humanity: MiG-35's new pics, interpretation

Monday, May 3, 2010

Since a number of new important articles were published in Russia at last I come back for posting most interesting of them. The strange lack of information about MiG-35 participation in MMRCA competition was solved by the publication in 'Take-Off' journal. They informed that two new MiG-35 prototypes were built in 2009: &#8470;961 and &#8470;967. The last was built on the base of MiG-29KUB &#8470;947 . It's in addition to the first prototype (MiG-35 &#8470;154). It confirmed too, that both new planes took participation in flying tests in India in October, 2009. Then, they turned to Russia where Zhuk-AE radar was installed on MiG-35D (&#8470;967). This spring both planes followed the testing in Zhukovsky. Different loads and flying systems were tested during these program.

Interestingly, both plane was made in Lukhovitsy, where MiG-29K\KUB program successefully started early. Other potential MiG-35 manufacturer - Sokol' plant - was not involved in the building. The pictures show regular nozzles without TVS. All these facts push to conclusion that MiG company stakes on maximal unification of the offered MiG-35 with the serial MiG-29K\KUB for Indian Navy. Probably it reflexes the wish of the Indian side too. If MiG-35 wins the tender, the total Indian fleet of last gen MiGs will reach 126+45=171 units. In such case the logistic burden would be significantly reduced, and the investment in RD-33 engine manufacturing in India would be justified. Also it allows to limit the manufacturing base to Lukhovitsy and not ti wait three years when 'Sokol' plant will be ready to MiG-35 production, if needed. Indeed the Indian tender conditions suppose production of only 18 planes abroad and the remained will be produced in India anyway.


----------



## Kinshuk

*No delay in MMRCA tender process: IAF Chief*

:: Bharat-Rakshak.com - Indian Military News Headlines ::

The IAF has said there would be no delay in finalising the $11-billion 126 combat aircraft deal even though the two-year deadline for the bids submitted by six global aerospace majors ended last week.

"As far as the process (finalising the tenders) is concerned, it is well on track as was visualised," IAF Chief Air Chief Marshal P V Naik said here on the sidelines of a function to unveil a portrait of Marshal of Air Force Arjan Singh at the Akash Mess yesterday.


Naik said the process of evaluating the six contenders for the 'mother of all deals' would take time and it was not an easy task.

"I am very happy and proud of our people, who have done this (evaluation) on time. They will finish off (the flight and weapons trials) by end of May. It will be a delay of about five or ten days. Our evaluation, testing is on schedule," he said, when asked if the deadline extension would delay the procurement process.

For the tenders floated in August 2007, US majors Lockheed Martin and Boeing, Russian RAC MiG, French D'Assault, Swedish SAAB and European consortium EADS had submitted their bids.

The companies have offered their F-16IN, F/A-18, MiG-35, Rafale, Gripen and Eurofighter Typhoon aircraft as the furture medium multirole combat aircraft for the IAF.

While the IAF has completed the technical evaluation of the bids submitted by the companies in early 2008, the commercial bids were yet to be opened.

The IAF began the flight and weapons evaluation of the six aircraft last year and is set to complete the trials by end of this month.

However, the deadline for the commercial bids ended last week following which the Defence Ministry asked the companies to submit fresh bids or extend the deadline for their existing bids.

When asked about the deadline extension, Naik said, "Deadline expiry is a routine thing, which happens in quite a few cases. The deadline is extended (in such cases)."

Meanwhile, senior IAF officials said they had set a timeline for three years since the tenders were issued to complete the process of evaluation of all the six aircraft in the fray.

"This three-year deadline we will be able to meet," they said. 

To a query on the American Defence Security Cooperation Agency notifying the Congress on the possible sale of 10 Boeing C-17 transport aircraft to India through the Foreign Military Sales route, Naik said the IAF expects the US to send a Letter of Acceptance (LOA) soon.

"They will send us a letter of LOA from their side and the progress will continue. We expect it shortly," he said.

Earlier, Naik unveiled the portrait of Arjan Singh in the lobby of Akash Mess in the presence of the Marshal of the Air Force, his family members and artist Sanjay Bhattacharya, who had made the portrait.

"It is a very special privilege. Marshal is the only five-star officer amongst all the three services in the country at present. He is an icon as far as the IAF is concerned. His exploits are very well known. So it is a privilege for us to have a picture of his in the Akash mess, which is a special Air Force mess," Naik said.

Arjan Singh said the portrait was a recognition of the IAF's eight-decade contribution to the nation.

"I think it is not about the Marshal, but recognition of the Air Force's eight-decade work. The Air Force has always helped the country in not only fighting the enemy but also in humanitarian work. I am quite sure that the IAF is really well-organised, well-trained, and will continue to serve the country," he said


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## deepakclaw

*i think grippen is the best ---the following are directly from sabb official site.*

Gripen IN is the most technologically advanced fighter aircraft in the world. Gripen IN is equipped with futuristic warfare technologies developed specifically for India and will be the first of the new generation, multi-role combat aircraft to enter service.



The Gripen IN in short:

* A powerful and proven engine
* AESA radar
* Advanced Communication systems
* Tactical Data Link
* Supercruise
* Advanced Electronic warfare
* Strategic reach
* Advanced Weapons Capacity
* Customer-specific weapons

Gripen IN  The independent choice:

* The worlds most technologically advanced multi-role fighter aircraft with futuristic warfare technologies developed specifically for India
* Meets or exceeds all defined operational requirement raised by the IAF in all roles
* Provides exceptional autonomous multi role capability in normal and hostile FOB operations, and acts as the perfect force multiplier
* Has substantially lower real Life Cycle Cost than its nearest competitor
* The only option that will fundamentally shift Indias defence technology prowess to one that is able to realise its ambition of being an independent global player
* In combination with the Industrial Cooperation program, Gripens program for IAF, Indian Defence and industrial establishment will make India by 2020 completely independent of the need to purchase combat aircraft from other countries and make it an exporter of aircraft like Sweden



Strategic leverage

Gripen is the only option that will fundamentally shift Indias defence technology prowess to one that is able to realise its ambition of being an independent global player.

Achieved through:

* Transfer of technology: all aspects of the product life cycle
* Industrial cooperation programme: covering key technologies
* Partnership around future generation fighter aircraft 

In combination with the above, Gripens program for IAF, Indian Defence and industrial establishment will make India by 2020 completely independent of the need to purchase combat aircraft from other countries and make it an exporter of aircraft like Sweden.

Image: Photo Per Kustvik, Condesign.

Operational dominance

Given Indias large airspace boundaries and its potential threats requires an air
defence and air combat fleet that will give it operational dominance along its borders with five countries and a 7,500 plus kilometres coastline over the next four decades. The aircraft it requires should be able to deliver not only air power and air combat superiority but also logistical, multi-role and versatility in weapons and systems integration.

Strategic Reach:

* Forward Operating bases
* Ground Support Equipment
* Rapid turnaround with minimal personnel
* More time in the air
* Supercruise
* Superior situational awareness
* Advanced weapons & sensors, more aircraft per dollar 

Defining the future

At delivery, Gripen IN will be the only aircraft that will be state of the art in technology and superior to other aircraft and the only one being modern at end of delivery.

Performance:

* Highly agile
* Multi-role capability
* Highly effective in all roles
* Supercruise
* Strategic reach
* Netcentric capability
* Carefree manoeuvring
* Advanced data link
* Extensive electronic warfaresystem 

Unbeatable life cycle cost (LCC)

Gripen will, over life, cost the Indian Government very significantly less than its nearest competitor.

* Low LCC is one of the fundamental design criteria
* Single engine
* High MTBF
* Low MTTR
* Selfdiagnosis
* Minimum of recourses like GSE training and personal
* On condition maintenance 


A smooth transition into operational service for IAF


- Deliveries from 2013: Initial deliveries time phased in accordance with operational requirements

- Perfect match with the SU-30 MKI and a true force multiplier using Tactical Data Link

- Experience of fleet transitions for Czech and Hungarian MIG-21 fleets

- Minimum logistics footprint

- Optimized training solution 
- computerized training aids 
- embedded training functions
- Customer adapted maintenance solution
Transfer of Technology (TOT)

* Saab is willing and able to provide ToT, that exceeds the requirements, to the Indian Government
* The level of ToT will enable India to manage all aspects of the life cycle including design
* Access to all levels of technology
* Saab is willing to enter a joint venture with Indian Aerospace Industry
with the aim to develop the next generation of fighters (MCA)

Genuine industrial co-operation in high technology areas

* India will be a key development and manufacturing hub for Saab and play a major role in development, production and support of future development programs.
* Saab / Gripen International Industrial Network will provide substantial and
long-term joint venture growth for the Indian Aerospace and Defence sector
* Substantial involvement in the Gripen development program
* Joint exploitation of other defence, security and aerospace opportunities
* Joint exploration of civil security and other non defence projects
* Industrial cooperation greater than 50% of contracted value

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## Just Yash

Gripen is like Swiss knife.







Can do so many Work but can't do any of them vary well........

Few Major Disadvantage...

1) More then 40% out side technology .

2) It can not Offer 100% tot plus it have nothing Superb, that it can offer over other contender. 

3) It will Carry less Weapon at Less range then any other Fighter in competition

4) Similar to LCA Block 2

Give fund and some more time to Our LCA Block-2 and It will be as potent as Gripen


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## !!craft!!

sirius4u said:


> Does anyone here have any info regarding the followings...?
> 1. Production rate of typhoon....? Already so many orders... Will it affect us...?
> 2. Production rate of Gripen...? I really have no idea about it...
> 
> Shed some light plz...




thats not gonna make a diffrence cos we a re only goona get 17 of them i am talking about euro fighter ..the rest of them are gonna be build in india..with tot buy hal....the same applies to the othere contenders...


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## Imran Khan

still here we are same as in 2007 . god bless politcs game plan.


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## sancho

LT.PRATEEK said:


> Thanks JHA bhai for that info
> 
> I hope IAF evaluation team when reaches Sweden after this volcano ash settles down as they are stranded in midway , get to fire METEOR on Gripen . That would be just the final impetus that would seal deal in favour of Swedes.


Hi Prateek, the Meteor is still only under development and is not a Gripen weapon only, of course EF and Rafale aswell as Tornado and Mirage 2000 of several European Air Forces will get them to instead of the US AMRAAM, or MICA EM.
If it turns out as good as claimed, it will give the European fighters a clear advantage in A2A compared to F16IN, F18SH, or Mig 35, because of long missile range and not to forget lower RCS of the European fighters. With our threat environment, there should be no doubt that we need that missile to maintain an edge in BVR.
I still prefer the Rafale/Meteor combo for IAF and IN!


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## KEETARP

Sancho , Good to see you back 

Yeah actually its not Gripen specific .
But the implementation of integration is to be done in phases in Europe
It is Gripen then Eurofighter and Rafale at last in that order , date fixed for Rafale is near 2015. So that way its a liitle late.

rafale is a very good bird , no doubt . 
But only negative point is its Engine low thrust and extremely high price , now just got news in my mail that M88-E4 just being tested on Rafale . But i think they have missed the bus when IAF evaluation took place whatever was present in aircraft is to be taken as final configuration. SAAB acted smart and got permission form IAF to send apart from c/d version full and final Gripen NG . That is a smart move that can tilt favour in SAAB favour.

Don know how 120D vs Meteor will fare.

Just a piece of information i would like to share - Few weeks back , had a chat with Instructor in air-force at a Party in Officers Mess. He also worked with Tejas team . 
Info i got that engine F404IN on Tejas is very impressive and has left everyone in IAF stunned . During one of flying phases it flew from Banglore to Jaiselmer and Fuel consumption was so less that it was described as Engines only taste fuel even when afterburners are on. 
Releated to MRCA - Info is bit disappointing but imp one , IAF would be on getting plane with commonality with existing inventory 
Another thing was related to Cope India Exercise - cant share that , but It has left my chest several inches expanded so i think you can guess ???????


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## sirius4u

Anything related to EJ 200...?
Or with the typhoon itself ? Hope thr's a really good news behind it...


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## peacemaker10

Imran Khan said:


> still here we are same as in 2007 . god bless politcs game plan.



I came to learn that in big defence deals 3-4 years are like nothing. However, I hope I can see the deal finalised soon. Can't wait to change my pc wallpaper with new Indian warbird


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## Bagee

what about the eurofighter guys remember it's the best on offer and things like such are bought every day ...... not to be concerned about the price see the future implications of this bird if chosen the main thing is the ej200 which is supercruise enabled if gone into lca it could do wonders


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## sancho

LT.PRATEEK said:


> Sancho , Good to see you back
> 
> Yeah actually its not Gripen specific .
> But the implementation of integration is to be done in phases in Europe
> It is Gripen then Eurofighter and Rafale at last in that order , date fixed for Rafale is near 2015. So that way its a liitle late.



Thx, was simply too busy for the last weeks with my new house and there is still a lot of work to do, so I still can't online so often as usual.

Regarding the Meteor and Gripen you are mistaken. The Meteor missile is a joint project and theintegration is to be done in phases yes, but not like you think. The first flight test with Meteor on EF and Rafale has been done from 2003 on. The EF tested it from land bases, the Rafale even from the French CdG carrier (I posted pics here before). Gripen was only the first to fire it, but as soon as the missile is operational, it will be available for all 3 fighters at the same time. Also don't forget that MBDA is main company behind it and Swe is not part of it, they only joint the development to get the missile for the Gripen too. The key players behind it are France, UK, Germany and Italy.



LT.PRATEEK said:


> But only negative point is its Engine low thrust and extremely high price , now just got news in my mail that M88-E4 just being tested on Rafale . But i think they have missed the bus when IAF evaluation took place whatever was present in aircraft is to be taken as final configuration. SAAB acted smart and got permission form IAF to send apart from c/d version full and final Gripen NG . That is a smart move that can tilt favour in SAAB favour.



I agree with you regarding the price of the Rafale, but not completelly to the thrust. There was reports about tests in UAE, where it showed not sufficient thrust in hot conditions, but on the other side, in these same conditions the Rafale F3 was able to prove it's manouverability in WVR combats against nothing less than the F22. It was reported that the F22 was only able to kill the Rafale 1 time in 6 engagements and all others went to draw. So if the Rafale would be underpowered, how did it managed that?
Many people check the specs of Rafale and see 75kN afterburner thrust, which of course is very low. But keep in mind that the Rafale is a twin engine figher and take it's empty weight to account too!

7,1t and 98kN for the Gripen
8,9t and 144kN for the F16 
9t empty and 2 x 75kN for the Rafale
11t and 2 x 90kN for EF
12t or more and 2 x 90kN for the Mig 35
15t and 2 x 98kN for the F18SH 

It might be true that the 90kN engine that the UAE wants would be better in hot climates, but you shouldn't underestemate the t/w ratio of the Rafale. Also keep in mind that they offered to integrate the Kaveri-Snecma engine which is aimed at 90, or more kN, so that problem (if it is one) could turn out to be a favour for us. It could be the only way to use Kaveri engine in a fighter in this decade, because it seems that LCA won't get it anymore and MCA is not even close to be real.

Funny that you see it as a smart move of Saab to send the Gripen C/D, because I think it was nothing else than desperation, because it shows how far Saab really is in the development of the Gripen NG. Nearly all techs in the prototype are only under integration and testing stage, not a single serial fighter is out now and the chances for delays are not that small. Saab had to send the C/D to do at least the weapon trials, because the C/D version couldn't show anything else to IAF. If IAF and MoD would have gone strictly by the time frames they set, they had to disqualify the Gripen NG, because it could only come 1 month delayed. 
The US fighters and the Rafale are the only fighters in the competition that came to India with all techs and capabilities that are on offer, so don't you think that will impress IAF more, than unproven capabilities of prototypes like Gripen NG, Mig 35, or even the EF without AESA ready yet? 

At the end the requirements of IAF/MoD will decide which fighter will be bought. If A2G, less delays, commonality to present fleet, as much ToT and customisatzion as possible is important, then you hardly find a better choice than the Rafale. If cost are the main points and the similarity in design and roles to LCA, as well as delays in Mig 21 replacement doesn't matter, the Gripen NG is the best choice.


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## sancho

Bagee said:


> what about the eurofighter guys remember it's the best on offer and things like such are bought every day ...... not to be concerned about the price see the future implications of this bird if chosen the main thing is the ej200 which is supercruise enabled if gone into lca it could do wonders


In short, development is too delayed, it is only the best in the same role that the MKI and FGFA will do in IAF, for anything else it is not at the moment, LCA engine deal is delinked from MMRCA, so we can buy the engine, but a different fighter in MMRCA too and there is no navy version available anytime soon.

Sad, but that's the way it is!


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## KEETARP

^^^^^^^^^^^^
Well , look price is not gonna be issue , whatever info i have from the insiders even though this whole Testing has been very secret and apart from core team no one has clue about it. 
What IAF is banking is, that handing over list of three Top performing Jets only , Now if they select Rafale , Eurofighter , F18 as top performing jets which wont be a surprise considering they are best of the lot. 
It dosen't leave MoD much of the choice to decide by their "Cheap is best theory" so this price theory is out . IAF will pick only three fighters of six which meet or exceed their req.

Regarding Engine - Dassault have promoted Rafale having speed more than 1 Mach without afterburner , now with meaningful load i doubt 75KN*2 is enough to give that . Clean config is diff isuue .
When you talk of advantage this Supercruise + short take off + hot refueling + Fast Data links +Low operational cost are some of the things that might just give advantage to a jet , and IAF would definately have a good look at that.

This brings me to an important issue - Operational cost of Rafale , this has been a secret considring no other force in world operates them . But some French and Brazil blogs are quick to point high costs of Rafale . 



> Regarding the Meteor and Gripen you are mistaken. The Meteor missile is a joint project and theintegration is to be done in phases yes, but not like you think. The first flight test with Meteor on EF and Rafale has been done from 2003 on. The EF tested it from land bases, the Rafale even from the French CdG carrier (I posted pics here before). Gripen was only the first to fire it, but as soon as the missile is operational, it will be available for all 3 fighters at the same time. Also don't forget that MBDA is main company behind it and Swe is not part of it, they only joint the development to get the missile for the Gripen too. The key players behind it are France, UK, Germany and Italy.


As far as Meteor is concerned when IAF visited Sweden , Gripen team showed them Live Meteor firing as was reported by Vishnu som . 
Not sure abt Rafale doing that same , 
Might wanna look at some recent Janes's article report - available on blog
http://www.gripenindia.com/2010/04/meteor-on-gripen-now-has-go-to-war.html

Imp Extracts- 
"*Saab became involved in the Meteor programme as early as 2003, when Saab Bofors Dynamics was awarded a contract to develop and produce the prototype of the missile. The same year, Saab Aerosystems was awarded a contract for the integration of Meteor on the Gripen. Saab therefore plays a key and prominent role within the Meteor programme.

Gripen is the first and so far only fighter aircraft which has air-launched the Meteor missile. The first Air Launched Demonstration firing took place in 2006.

While the UK is leading the Meteor development programme, all airborne test work to date has used Swedish assets because of a series of delays with other intended test platforms, chiefly the Eurofighter Typhoon. The UK Ministry of Defence (MoD) has now acknowledged a previously unreported Meteor firing that took place in 2009. An MoD statement to Jane's said the test "was was conducted on 3 June 2009 from a Gripen aircraft against a Mirach subscale target at the Hebrides range. This firing successfully tested the ability of the missile to acquire and track a target at low altitude with a sea clutter background. This was the first trial using the pre-production standard of hardware*".

*To date six Meteor firings have been acknowledged since May 2006 - all undertaken by Saab Gripens*.

This also brings about BVR missile into question . All others have either Aim120 or R77 as BVR but Mica is still short legged on rafale when our adversary are firing AIM120 / PL12- SD10 / SD13 / R77

And on to choice of MRCA - I think MRCA wiil also give an indication of role of su30 in IAF , if a jet like F18 or rafale is chosen ,i thnk it will retain its status of out and out air-superiority fighter. 
But my guess is seeing integration of Brahmos+Nirbhay on MKI we could very well see a multi-role jet with more of air-sup asset and superior flight performance giving escort to mki in war . 
Something like Eurofighter ,Mig35 , Gripen fit that role perfectly.
For me personally , all are good jets best in the arsenal of each country , anyone selected can beat each-other there is no clear winner .
I would though love to see Gripen in IAF colours.

And Sancho regarding that Rafale vs F22 , i dont really look at *DACT* exercise as a Jet vs Jet (* who has better toy thing*) . 
*DACT exercise are more about Tactics and operational workout + collaboration among friendly forces .*
I dont know how *2 Eurofighter smashed 15F-15* , or how *Rafale beat F22 6 times* or more recently 1 gripen beat 10 su35 . Frankly it all looks like self-boasting thing.

And yes one thing i missed in last post which surprised me most - 
Talking to that officer i came to know whom IAF sees as the top of the pack air-force . Its the *French* - guess what i always thought it would be either Israel or USAF but French never crossed my thought. 
really surprising considering they are not that experienced


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## sudhir007

i found some detail of per flight operating cost in BR

cost per flight hour
F-16 around $6000
EF around 14000 euros
Rafale: $16,000
F/A-18E: $10,000
Gripen: $4,500

It seem that Rafale operating cost is higher and Gripen become lowest

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## KEETARP

Not surprised to see higher operating cost of Twin engined fighters but Rafale having highest is a bit surprising .
Marketing its Rafale jet Dassault always pointed out low operating cost by your post looks oppposite.
F18 must admit is very good at 10,000 considering its a naval fighter and requires much more operation . 
Would be nice if we have operational cost of su30,Mig29 and Mirage2000 for comparison.

@ Sudhir - BTW any source or link for your data ????????


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## sudhir007

old news but good for reading

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/dae/articles/communiques/FighterCostFinalJuly06.pdf


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## sudhir007

LT.PRATEEK said:


> Not surprised to see higher operating cost of Twin engined fighters but Rafale having highest is a bit surprising .
> Marketing its Rafale jet Dassault always pointed out low operating cost by your post looks oppposite.
> F18 must admit is very good at 10,000 considering its a naval fighter and requires much more operation .
> Would be nice if we have operational cost of su30,Mig29 and Mirage2000 for comparison.
> 
> @ Sudhir - BTW any source or link for your data ????????


Sorry dnt have any source of i read this information in a keypublishing fourm


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## sancho

LT.PRATEEK said:


> What IAF is banking is, that handing over list of three Top performing Jets only , Now if they select Rafale , Eurofighter , F18 as top performing jets which wont be a surprise considering they are best of the lot.
> It dosen't leave MoD much of the choice to decide by their "Cheap is best theory" so this price theory is out . IAF will pick only three fighters of six which meet or exceed their req.


Mate you pointed out two different things in one here! The one is price and cost-effectiveness and here the Gripen as a single engine of course has clear advantages. That's why I still believe it will enter the final stage, like I always said as the cost-effective solution (F18SH as the political option and the Rafale as the best overall option).

The seconed point you mentioned is performance, but high cost doens't mean good performance! Be it in the competitions in Singapore, or now in Brazil, the EF didn't enter the final stage although it is widely known as the best 4+ air superiority fighter. This hints, that its performance in the A2G role was that limited, that it wasn't good enough to compete the other fighters and not worth the high costs.
If really only 3 contenders will make it to the final stage, it would be a big surprise to me if the EF would one of them, because I doubt that good, or comparable multi role capabilities will be available with that fighter soon.

If your infos are correct and money isn't the issue, the Rafale must win hands down, because the costs are its biggest disadvantage. It is known that IAF love and wanted more Mirage 2000, but instead of fighters like F16IN, Mig 35, F18SH, or even the Gripen NG, the Rafale is not a simple upgrade, its a improved new fighter. Not to mention full ToT, source codes, sanction prove...



LT.PRATEEK said:


> When you talk of advantage this Supercruise + short take off + hot refueling + Fast Data links +Low operational cost are some of the things that might just give advantage to a jet , and IAF would definately have a good look at that.


No doubt that IAF will be interested, but mainly based on the cost-effectiveness, not based on pure performance. Just Yash said it quit good,


> Gripen is like Swiss knife. Can do so many Work but can't do any of them vary well


.
It has the same delta-canard design, can also supercruise, will use the same swashplate AESA and the Meteor missile, just like the EF, but would anybody really say it will have the same A2A performance?
The NG version has more payload, internal fuel and weapon stations, but will anybody really say it will have the same A2G performance as the Rafale?
The Sea Gripen might be a cost-effective carrier fighter, but will be so limited in payload that it won't be comparable to Rafale, F18SH, or Mig 29K. 



LT.PRATEEK said:


> As far as Meteor is concerned when IAF visited Sweden , Gripen team showed them Live Meteor firing as was reported by Vishnu som .
> Not sure abt Rafale doing that same ,
> Might wanna look at some recent Janes's article report - available on blog...


That's pretty much what I said before, MBDA started the development Saab only joint the project and it is done in phases. First flight test on EF, first flight tests from carriers from Rafale, first test fired from Gripen, these are test in the development of the missile, not weapon integration of for a fighter!
The Meteor missile development is expected to be done by 2013 and then could be available for all 3 fighters then, but the key here is, that the EF and the Gripen itself are only under development now. So the missile might be ready then, but the fighter may not. EF tranche 3 with mature AESA, Meteor and all other still not decided capabilities is expected only by 2015 or later. Not sure when the Gripen NG will go to serial production, still only a prototype is ready yet. Rafale F3 instead, with fully multi role performance and AESA radar will be inducted in French forces by next year, so do you really think Rafale will get Meteor at last? 



LT.PRATEEK said:


> This also brings about BVR missile into question . All others have either Aim120 or R77 as BVR but Mica is still short legged on rafale when our adversary are firing AIM120 / PL12- SD10 / SD13 / R77


In short, I expect Meteor, or maybe even Astra to be used from IAF Rafale instead of MICA EM and besides that, our adversary must detect the fighter first to have a range advantage right? 



LT.PRATEEK said:


> And on to choice of MRCA - I think MRCA wiil also give an indication of role of su30 in IAF , if a jet like F18 or rafale is chosen ,i thnk it will retain its status of out and out air-superiority fighter.
> But my guess is seeing integration of Brahmos+Nirbhay on MKI we could very well see a multi-role jet with more of air-sup asset and superior flight performance giving escort to mki in war .
> Something like Eurofighter ,Mig35 , Gripen fit that role perfectly.


That's the same point that I have for Rafale too, the difference is only, that you think Gripen is a good match *alongside of MKI* only, but I say Rafale is the best match *between MKI and LCA*.
LCA MK2 and Gripen NG could be very similar in design, capabilities and especially roles like interception, close air support, or later maritime patrol. The MKI instead will remain the main air superiority fighter till FGFA arrives and will be used for heavy ground attacks with the cruise missiles that you mentioned, or heavy bomb loads (up to 3 KAB 1500!). So what IAF really needs is a fighter in between, that is useful for both air defense and strikes missions where LCAs and MKIs aren't usefull. For example SEAD, deep penetration, low level strikes.



LT.PRATEEK said:


> And Sancho regarding that Rafale vs F22 ,...


Not sure about the Gripen vs Su35, but the other exercises was live simulations and the Rafale performed more than well against 2 of the best air superiorty fighters (EF and F22), which nobody had expected before. It didn't won against the F22, but was shot down only once, which is very impressiv too. Till that day everybody only hailed the EF as a fighter with some chances against it, but this shows that the Rafale is very close in A2A performance too, at least in WVR.

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## sancho

LT.PRATEEK said:


> Not surprised to see higher operating cost of Twin engined fighters but Rafale having highest is a bit surprising .
> Marketing its Rafale jet Dassault always pointed out low operating cost by your post looks oppposite.
> F18 must admit is very good at 10,000 considering its a naval fighter and requires much more operation .
> Would be nice if we have operational cost of su30,Mig29 and Mirage2000 for comparison.
> 
> @ Sudhir - BTW any source or link for your data ????????



These costs include the cost of weapons and the fighters that mainly use US weapons have obviously cheaper costs than the Rafale that only uses French, or European weapons. The maintenance is said to be at Mirage 2000 level, MICA, AASM, Exocet and later of course Meteor won't be that cheap.
For India the numbers will differ anyway, depending on which weapons we will use. MICA, or maybe Python V / Astra (my favourite combo for short and medium range. If we integrate Kaveri engine, or use other indigenous techs and weapons. But Rafale and EF will be the overall costliest for sure.


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## jha

the thing is that we needed MRCA as a stop gap measure till the arrival of FGFA but now this has become so huge that any prediction just does not make sense...

As a stop gap Gripen is the best choice considering its cost effectiveness and TOT..plus i think its similarity with LCA Mk-2 will only be advantageous since the similarity in design and TOT will help the somehow lazy designers in HAL/NAL to use the available technology from GRIPEN to bring the MK-2 version in less time..

Coming to RAFALE , no doubt this is the best Multi-role fighter available in the fray..being a little underpowered will not be that much of an issue in next upgrade imo..BUT this is damn expensive to procure and operate.. i wonder what babus in finance ministry will do about it...


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## jha

sancho said:


> These costs include the cost of weapons and the fighters that mainly use US weapons have obviously cheaper costs than the Rafale that only uses French, or European weapons. The maintenance is said to be at Mirage 2000 level, MICA, AASM, Exocet and later of course Meteor won't be that cheap.
> For India the numbers will differ anyway, depending on which weapons we will use. *MICA, or maybe Python V / Astra (my favourite combo for short and medium range. If we integrate Kaveri engine, or use other indigenous techs and weapons*. But Rafale and EF will be the overall costliest for sure.



These missiles can be integrated in any plane...plus ASTRA will take some time to mature, wont it..?


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## sancho

jha said:


> the thing is that we needed MRCA as a stop gap measure till the arrival of FGFA but now this has become so huge that any prediction just does not make sense...
> 
> As a stop gap Gripen is the best choice considering its cost effectiveness and TOT..plus i think its similarity with LCA Mk-2 will only be advantageous since the similarity in design and TOT will help the somehow lazy designers in HAL/NAL to use the available technology from GRIPEN to bring the MK-2 version in less time..



Even if FGFA arrives, MMRCA will still be a frontline fighter in IAF for nearly 2 more decades and FGFA will not be useful for all roles too, so don't think about MMRCA just as a stop gap. It might be in numbers, because LCA delays, but for sure not regarding capabilities.

Secondly, Sweden and the Gripen are just as dependent on foreign countries and parts like India and LCA, because the main parts (radar and engine) will mainly be foreign. The only parts that they really developed alone, or at least co-developed are mainly avionics and there we have better options from Israel (Mayavi EWS, Litening pod, HMS...).

If LCA MK2 should gain from MMRCA, the best would be to chose EF, Rafale, or the Mig. They can offer full ToT, or same techs and weapons for LCA too, so the highest ammount of commonality.



jha said:


> These missiles can be integrated in any plane...plus ASTRA will take some time to mature, wont it..?



If the vendor allows it and we pay for the integration of course. I guess so, but MMRCA will only be inducted in 4 years, should be enough time to mature the missile, even with normal Indian delays.


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## Just Yash

jha said:


> These missiles can be integrated in any plane...plus ASTRA will take some time to mature, wont it..?



It will not take more then 5 years, and in future we are going to develop more and more indigenous missiles.

to integrate any missile or cruse missile we required complete source code of radar so we can establish connection between missile and radar Right....

Now let's how ,many will provide that

1) Mig 35 (But we are all ready using mig 29 and we will upgrade it up to the mig 35 level in future so we dont need mig 35 )

2) Gripen( No, more then 40 &#37; components are from out side)

3) f-16 & 18 (Complete source code of USA radar.... forget about it)

4) EF ( AESA radar will be installed in 2015 and then after long talk reading source code and then new deal and.... stop it yaar i am already feeling old)

5) Rafael ------ oh yes it can........

so out of 6 fighter only 2 are will provide complete tot IN TIME and out of them only one will provide us NEW TECHNOLOGY......


and don't forget we will also going to use our new missile NIRBHAI from air, which will give our fighter 1000 KM long PUNCHING RANGE

so just don't waste time buy RAFAEL


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## Indian-Devil

Just Yash said:


> It will not take more then 5 years, and in future we are going to develop more and more indigenous missiles.
> 
> to integrate any missile or cruse missile we required complete source code of radar so we can establish connection between missile and radar Right....
> 
> Now let's how ,many will provide that
> 
> 1) Mig 35 (But we are all ready using mig 29 and we will upgrade it up to the mig 35 level in future so we dont need mig 35 )
> 
> 2) Gripen( No, more then 40 &#37; components are from out side)
> 
> 3) f-16 & 18 (Complete source code of USA radar.... forget about it)
> 
> 4) EF ( AESA radar will be installed in 2015 and then after long talk reading source code and then new deal and.... stop it yaar i am already feeling old)
> 
> 5) Rafael ------ oh yes it can........
> 
> so out of 6 fighter only 2 are will provide complete tot IN TIME and out of them only one will provide us NEW TECHNOLOGY......
> 
> 
> and don't forget we will also going to use our new missile NIRBHAI from air, which will give our fighter 1000 KM long PUNCHING RANGE
> 
> so just don't waste time buy RAFAEL



There is no doubt that Rafael looks better from other contenders but one of the problem is underpowered engine & secondly its higher cost. Because 10-12 Billion dollor value is for AC cost along with full service life cost + ToT + some armaments. Here its chances start decreasing , you see how much they cost Brazil only for 36 ACs. If MoD & MoF can increase budget for this purchase then only this look feasible. And in my way go for M-88ECO engine which will be ready this yearend or next year and few more changes which UAE is negotiating. Then it will be a deadly machine and will be able to take on any current fighter in our neighbourhood.


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## Sri

There is a speculation from another forum where people are saying the budget has been increased to around 30 billion $ by the MOD and total number of AC to 200 . also with the current budget I dont think we can buy any other ac apart from mig and ng
Tx


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## letsbefriends

Sri said:


> There is a speculation from another forum where people are saying the budget has been increased to around 30 billion $ by the MOD and total number of AC to 200 . also with the current budget I dont think we can buy any other ac apart from mig and ng
> Tx



r u serious dude?????


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## Sri

The speculation is from 
MMRCA News and Discussion IV - Page 22 - Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums

not sure how far its true
Tx


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## karan.1970

I dont think so.. this seems more of a reaction to the news articles going around whether MRCA is now even needed..


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## deepakclaw



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## jha

*F/A 18 Super Hornet will fit the bill for IAF, says U.S*







As the race for the IAF bid to procure 126 Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft enters the home stretch, the United States Navy vouched for the versatility of the F/A-18 Super Hornet, one of the six aircraft in competition, with features closer to a fifth-generation fighter aircraft.

The Indian Air Force is scheduled to complete flight evaluation trials during the month with the last of the six competitors. The Super Hornet from the Boeing stable has gone through all three phases of trial across different weather conditions in India and weapons at the manufacturers' locations.

The Naval Air Station, Oceana here in the U.S. southeast coast, has under its wing 17 operating squadrons of these fighter jets including 10 Super Hornet squadrons that fly from both the land base and the aircraft carrier.

Emphasising that F/A18 would continue to be the U.S. Navy's workhorse even after the induction of the futuristic F-35, Cmdr Mike Gusko said the new version would complement the existing fleet of Super Hornets, which would continue to serve well beyond 2035.

He said the aircraft could operate from dry, wet and icy runways, an ability fitting in with the overall requirements of the IAF.

The Block-II aircraft (Super Hornet) comes with ability to operate in all-weather providing air defence superiority, precision attack, close-air support, and an advanced radar for weapons system.

Apart from combat manoeuvrability and unlimited angle of attack, which its test pilots demonstrated to the visiting group, it had the active electronically scanned array radar (AESA), the Navy official said. The AESA radar is being upgraded and the version would be on offer.

The Commanding Officer of the Center for Aviation Technical Training Unit, Cdr John Wood, said the NAS, Oceana facility also had both maintenance and training establishment, with the latter running courses for fresh recruits to advanced level staff of varying durations.

The simulator-assisted training establishment brings the technicians closest to understanding the intricate wiring pattern and design, breaking it into segments and guiding them through electronic and printed manuals.

Bret Marks, programme manager for F/A 18 India, said the IAF would get two of the training units in India as part of the deal with the option of buying a third one and an offer to train trainers here. Of the 126 aircraft, the IAF is looking for 80 single-seaters and the rest with tandem operated cockpit. Boeing offers F/A-18 E in the first category and F/A-18 F in the other. 

The Hindu : News / National : F/A 18 Super Hornet will fit the bill for IAF, says U.S


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## jha

i donno why but i have this feeling that SH is more suitable for carrier borne operations than air force ones..


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## Kinshuk

*F/A 18 Super Hornet will fit the bill for IAF, says U.S*

The Hindu : News / National : F/A 18 Super Hornet will fit the bill for IAF, says U.S



As the race for the IAF bid to procure 126 Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft enters the home stretch, the United States Navy vouched for the versatility of the F/A-18 Super Hornet, one of the six aircraft in competition, with features closer to a fifth-generation fighter aircraft.

The Indian Air Force is scheduled to complete flight evaluation trials during the month with the last of the six competitors. The Super Hornet from the Boeing stable has gone through all three phases of trial across different weather conditions in India and weapons at the manufacturers' locations.

The Naval Air Station, Oceana here in the U.S. southeast coast, has under its wing 17 operating squadrons of these fighter jets including 10 Super Hornet squadrons that fly from both the land base and the aircraft carrier.

Emphasising that F/A18 would continue to be the U.S. Navy's workhorse even after the induction of the futuristic F-35, Cmdr Mike Gusko said the new version would complement the existing fleet of Super Hornets, which would continue to serve well beyond 2035.

He said the aircraft could operate from dry, wet and icy runways, an ability fitting in with the overall requirements of the IAF.

The Block-II aircraft (Super Hornet) comes with ability to operate in all-weather providing air defence superiority, precision attack, close-air support, and an advanced radar for weapons system. 

Apart from combat manoeuvrability and unlimited angle of attack, which its test pilots demonstrated to the visiting group, it had the active electronically scanned array radar (AESA), the Navy official said. The AESA radar is being upgraded and the version would be on offer.

The Commanding Officer of the Center for Aviation Technical Training Unit, Cdr John Wood, said the NAS, Oceana facility also had both maintenance and training establishment, with the latter running courses for fresh recruits to advanced level staff of varying durations. 

The simulator-assisted training establishment brings the technicians closest to understanding the intricate wiring pattern and design, breaking it into segments and guiding them through electronic and printed manuals.

Bret Marks, programme manager for F/A 18 India, said the IAF would get two of the training units in India as part of the deal with the option of buying a third one and an offer to train trainers here. Of the 126 aircraft, the IAF is looking for 80 single-seaters and the rest with tandem operated cockpit. Boeing offers F/A-18 E in the first category and F/A-18 F in the other.


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## sudhir007

i think it is 3time is news has been posted


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## sancho

jha said:


> i donno why but i have this feeling that SH is more suitable for carrier borne operations than air force ones..


Of course, because it was designed for that aim. Stronger airframe and gears, a hook for arrested landings..., but for the strike role in IAF it wouldn't a bad choice. However, I think the time for dedicated ground attack fighters in IAF should be over now.


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## atul0408

jha said:


> i donno why but i have this feeling that SH is more suitable for carrier borne operations than air force ones..



GUys by when we are expecting the decision to come for MRCA>>>???

R WE wating for OBama to arrive in sept/October...???


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## sancho

> *COLUMN: M-MRCA, A Difficult Choice For The IAF*
> 
> By Air Commodore (Retd) Ramesh Phadke
> 
> The trial phase of the proposed purchase of the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) is nearing completion. Last heard, the Swedish JAS-39 Gripen was not able to take part as the company had brought a different (older?) model for trials supposedly because the new Next Generation model proposed for India was undergoing some trials in Sweden. Whatever the truth, the competition is heating up.
> 
> What should be the criteria for the final choice? The IAF strength has dwindled to some 30 squadrons in the last few years. But the effect has been mitigated to some extent by the induction of the Su-30, which, with its multi-role capability, long range and highly advanced avionics and armament suite, is far more capable than the phased out fighters such as the MiG-25, MiG-23 (MF/BN), MiG-21 and some others. In any case the Su-30, Mirage-2000, MiG-29 and Jaguar combination have proved themselves in many joint exercises with the air forces of Singapore, the UK and US. Does it then mean that simply getting more Su-30s, and according to the Air Chief, some 150 more are being ordered, would make up the shortfall?
> 
> The Su-30 is a very large and heavy twin-engined fighter in the 30 ton class (empty weight: 18,400 kg, loaded weight: 24,900 kg, and maximum take-off weight: 38,000 kg), two engines of 131 kN max after burner thrust each) which gives a thrust to weight ratio at loaded weight of 1.07 and 1.15 with 50 per cent fuel. Its price is reportedly in the US$ 34-53 million range. That is not something to be scoffed at. Given such sterling qualities and a long, if at times uneven relationship with its manufacturer, Russia, why is the IAF looking for another fighter?
> 
> The main reasons could be to diversify the sources of foreign supply, access Western technologies, work out mutually beneficial Joint Venture (JV) deals and perhaps leverage the buy for larger foreign policy goals. Given the rapidly changing regional geopolitical scenario, the last factor seems critically important. Having set the background straight, let us now look at the six contenders for the MMRCA competition.
> 
> All six contenders are equipped with state-of-the-art avionics and AESA (Active Electronically Scanned Array) airborne radar with only marginal differences in performance. There is also little difference in their armament carrying capacity and, where needed, such changes/modifications should be possible.
> 
> The French Dassault Rafale, the European Consortium Eurofighter Typhoon and the American Boeing F/A-18 Super Hornet are all twin-engined fighters in the 25-30 ton class. All of them are reportedly very expensive, with reported prices ranging from Euro 48 million for the Rafale to Euro 88 million for the Eurofighter and US$ 58 million for the Super Hornet. Admittedly, these are only notional figures and no vendor/buyer is likely to divulge the real/actual price and the services, equipment, spares/maintenance support that it might include. Would the IAF want to purchase such heavy duty and expensive (?) aircraft?
> 
> The MiG-35 is a further development of the MiG-29K version that the Indian Navy is now inducting. It was first unveiled at Aero India Show-2007 at Bangalore. While it no doubt has some extra wing area (8-10 per cent?), smokeless (?) and supposedly the latest version of the RD-33 engine fitted in the MiG-29, the Phazotron Zhuk AE- AESA radar with additional provision for the ground attack role, LCD Multi Function Displays (MFD) and possibly the option to fit Western avionics if needed, it is not exactly a proven design nor are its life cycle costs known. Its official price is not known but going by our past experience it is likely to be low.
> 
> That leaves us with the F-16 IN Super Viper (F-16 E/F Block 60) described by Lockheed Martin as, the most advanced and capable F-16 ever, and the JAS-39 NG Gripen. Both these are relatively lighter aircraft at a maximum all up weight of just 16,000 kg and yet each carries an external/armament load of around 8,000 kg. They are highly manoeuvrable multi-role fighters.
> 
> The F-16 has been around for nearly 40 years but it still commands respect among the experts. It is combat proven, has operated in all parts of the world in very demanding conditions and like the freak if admirable design of the venerable MiG-21 and DC-3 Dakota, is destined to be remembered as the best multi-role fighter ever. It comes with conformal external fuel tanks to reduce drag, and the GE F110-132A engine giving a maximum afterburning thrust of 143 kN. About 4400 F-16s have been sold to 25 countries so far. The aircraft has a total accumulated flight time of some 4.5 million hours and hence the Mean Time Between Failures (MTBF) is likely to be very high. Snags and technical problems are likely to be more predictable. It should also help reduce life cycle costs to a large extent. The Saab JAS -39 Gripen is also reportedly as good. It is relatively new on the scene and has an American GE F 414G engine, which means that Sweden would have to get US permission before it is sold to India.
> 
> The issue of access to technology and how each vendor fulfils the offset commitment is not yet known, but it is reasonable to assume that no country is likely to transfer the latest technologies without necessary safeguards and confidentiality/end-user agreements. The main issue, therefore, is one of continued reliable spares and maintenance support throughout the projected life of at least 30-40 years. Would Lockheed Martin keep the F-16 line open that long? Another sticking point may be that Pakistan also flies the same fighter. But then the Chinese air force (PLAAF) also flies the Su-30 in fairly large numbers and is likely to use them for another 30-40 years and that did not deter India from buying it in 1996. The Gripen has been offered at reduced cost to Bulgaria, so some further bargaining might be possible. The F-16 could also cost India less if the Foreign Military Sales (FMS) route is followed but one cannot predict how the Obama administration would handle the deal and, who knows, Lockheed Martin might even transfer the entire production line to India as was once promised in the case of another American fighter the F-5.
> 
> There was some talk of the contract being split between two vendors and a separate tender for the AESA radar. This, in my opinion, might have been conjectured to meet the Tejas LCS radar requirements. India is already committed to buying six C-130J, 10 C-17 Globemaster heavy lift aircraft and other equipment from the US and hence it might become somewhat easy to buy additional GE 404 or more powerful engines for the indigenous LCA.
> 
> In the final analysis, it seems that the political factor is likely to influence the choice of the MMRCA more heavily than just the performance parameters. As an old fighter pilot, however, I would always pitch for a light, easily manoeuvrable, agile and relatively inexpensive fighter that delivers every time, generates high sortie rates and is easy to maintain and train on a day to day peace time schedule. What counts in war is the number of fighters one can launch every hour, every day, day after day, with full confidence and ease of operation.



LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence: COLUMN: M-MRCA, A Difficult Choice For The IAF


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## sudhir007

LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence: FLASH! Gripen Demo Clears Leh Trials!







The Gripen Demo aircraft, which landed at Air Force Station Jamnagar, Gujarat on Monday, cleared its high altitude trials in Leh today. Air Force sources confirmed to LiveFist that the aircraft went through the full routine of tests that the Gripen-D did earlier this year. IAF pilots already got a chance to fly the Gripen Demo in the first week of April at Linkoping, Sweden, but calling the Demo airplane to India was necessary to complete all the demands in the field evaluation test (FET) plan.


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## KEETARP

A *Recent IAF ex-Fighter pilot's view on MRCA and his views*. 
Must read 
MMRCA: A difficult choice for the IAF | Institute for Defence Studies and Analyses


> IDSA COMMENT
> 
> MMRCA: A difficult choice for the IAF
> Ramesh Phadke
> May 19, 2010
> In the final analysis, it seems that the political factor is likely to influence the choice of the MMRCA more heavily than just the performance parameters. As an old fighter pilot, however, I would always pitch for a light, easily manoeuvrable, agile and relatively inexpensive fighter that delivers every time, generates high sortie rates and is easy to maintain and train on a day to day peace time schedule. What counts in war is the number of fighters one can launch every hour, every day, day after day, with full confidence and ease of operation.

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## FlyingSpagetti

LT.PRATEEK said:


> ^^^^^^^^
> Great news Sudhir , thanks
> 
> Like to share a *Recent IAF ex-Fighter pilot's view on MRCA and his views*.
> Must read
> MMRCA: A difficult choice for the IAF | Institute for Defence Studies and Analyses



Sadly Indian politicians are more about satisfying others rather than protecting their motherland eg nehru, chidambram etc etc

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## FlyingSpagetti

I hope u ppl buy MIG-35


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## sancho

LT.PRATEEK said:


> ^^^^^^^^
> Great news Sudhir , thanks
> 
> Like to share a *Recent IAF ex-Fighter pilot's view on MRCA and his views*.
> Must read
> MMRCA: A difficult choice for the IAF | Institute for Defence Studies and Analyses



Hi Prateek, I posted the same report, but from livefist above and the requirments that he sees as most important, are pretty much the same that I found important (besides the capabilities of the fighter itself):



> The main reasons could be to diversify the sources of foreign supply, access Western technologies, work out mutually beneficial Joint Venture (JV) deals and perhaps leverage the buy for larger foreign policy goals. Given the rapidly changing regional geopolitical scenario, the last factor seems critically important.



Diversify the sources of foreign supply, access Western technologies, eliminates the Mig of course and should prefer western fighters with most possible ToT. The US fighters will have a big problem here, because the US gov will not share their techs with us, so that will be very limited, which leaves only the Europeans.
The only European fighters that can offer full ToT are Rafale and EF, the US fighters instead are only the best for the last criteria, political benefits for foreign policy goals. 

But what I found interesting is his final conclusion:



> As an old fighter pilot, however, I would always pitch for a light, easily manoeuvrable, agile and relatively inexpensive fighter that delivers every time, generates high sortie rates and is easy to maintain and train on a day to day peace time schedule. What counts in war is the number of fighters one can launch every hour, every day, day after day, with full confidence and ease of operation.



So his choice would be F16 IN, or Gripen NG, because he seems to see numbers as most important. But as we know, the Gripen NG won't give any political benefits, which is mostlikely the same reason why they will lose in Brazil.

At the end, every fighter has its pros and cons of course and without knowing the real requirements of MoD, I would say every fighter except the Mig 35 has a chance.

OT. not sure if you saw it, but I answered you regarding the Bombs kits that were embargoed for the Mirage in Kargil, but the thread was deleted, so not sure if you saw it.


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## KEETARP

Sancho , thanks for clarification
Like you to post that *Paveway* links here for benefit of others.

And regarding your Analysis, its quite on the same line i believe MRCA will go
But one thing i would disagree i dont see Eurofighter having a chance more than Rafale . 
It always will be toss up between what Brazil's is like . Eurofighter cost is high and is having lot of problems recently. Its A2G capability and weapons are still a big ??????


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## sancho

LT.PRATEEK said:


> But one thing i would disagree i dont see Eurofighter having a chance more than Rafale .
> It always will be toss up between what Brazil's is like . Eurofighter cost is high and is having lot of problems recently. Its A2G capability and weapons are still a big ??????



I also don't see the EF with good chances, but when the requirement is like it was mentioned in that article, only these 2 fighters fullfil them, but of course when you add the performance of each fighter the Rafale is preferable.
Yes, as I said before, Gripen NG, F18SH and Rafale should be in the final stage.


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## Jade

First, Americans are about too much self Interest, so F16 and F18 should not be considered at all 

Regarding Rafale and Euro fighter, there are very costly and heavy, and it make sense to buy more MKI&#8217;s

MIG 35&#8217;s should not be considered as one of the main objective is to diversify supply sources

That leaves Grippen and IA should go for Grippen as TOT of Grippen would help fine tune LCA and even help build MCA

We have to remember that the objective is to get a fighter plane that fits the requirement and not to get the best fighter plane


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## sancho

Not an MKI, but at least a Flanker besides 2 Rafales, what a great combo!


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## sudhir007

Gripen NG demo flies from its nest

Last week the Gripen NG demo was making its Iinternational debut by taking part in the last phase of the Indian evaluation trials for the MMRCA (Medium Multi- Role Combat Aircraft) tender in India.
To date the aircraft has flown some 135 test flights in Sweden and is now testing its wings abroad, showing the international arena that next generation Gripen fighter development is on track. 
"This achievement just shows the expertise and high technology capability that Sweden boasts in developing and manufacturing a fighter aircraft of this calibre. Several International pilots have already flown and evaluated the Gripen NG demo in Sweden, including pilots from Brazil and India and we are confident that this aircraft meets, or exceeds every operational requirement raised by the Indian Air Force," says Eddy de la Motte, Gripen Campaign Director, India. 
*The harsh environment of the Leh airbase, 3300m high up in the Himalayas, proved to be no match for the Swedish fighter where it cleared the high altitude trials.*


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## SpArK

Its now official that 2 of the fighters cleared the Leh tests. which one is the other???


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## hal-fgfa

FlyingSpagetti said:


> I hope u ppl buy MIG-35



i really like mig 35 ... not only because it come with full ToT. but it comes from russia also ........most trusted country for india


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## Sri

Hi,
I read in Livefist that the cost of Rafale is around 48 Million EUROs which roughly translates to 60 Million $. I believe the NG, SH costs around the same. If this is true then Rafale may be the best ac financially. 

Want to know from seniors what are the approx costs of the ac participating in MMRCA. I mean with life time spares/support, weapons etc.
Tx


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## jha

^^ My favorite GRIPEN is really impressive....
RAFALE+GRIPEN is the way to go...


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## jha

Sri said:


> Hi,
> I read in Livefist that *the cost of Rafale is around 48 Million EUROs which roughly translates to 60 Million $*. I believe the NG, SH costs around the same. If this is true then Rafale may be the best ac financially.
> 
> Want to know from seniors what are the approx costs of the ac participating in MMRCA. I mean with life time spares/support, weapons etc.
> Tx





it costs more than 80 mill...


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## Sri

I was refering to LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence: COLUMN: M-MRCA, A Difficult Choice For The IAF

The French Dassault Rafale, the European Consortium Eurofighter Typhoon and the American Boeing F/A-18 Super Hornet are all twin-engined fighters in the 25-30 ton class. All of them are reportedly very expensive, with reported prices ranging from Euro 48 million for the Rafale to Euro 88 million for the Eurofighter and US$ 58 million for the Super Hornet. Admittedly, these are only notional figures and no vendor/buyer is likely to divulge the real/actual price and the services, equipment, spares/maintenance support that it might include. Would the IAF want to purchase such &#8216;heavy duty&#8217; and expensive (?) aircraft?


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## hal-fgfa

are yar mig35 is the best sabse sasta just 38 million each dude we can buy more than 300 mig35 in the place of 126 typhoon


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## syntax_error

jade1982 said:


> First, Americans are about too much self Interest, so F16 and F18 should not be considered at all
> 
> Regarding Rafale and Euro fighter, there are very costly and heavy, and it make sense to buy more MKIs
> 
> MIG 35s should not be considered as one of the main objective is to diversify supply sources
> *
> That leaves Grippen and IA should go for Grippen as TOT of Grippen would help fine tune LCA and even help build MCA*
> 
> We have to remember that the objective is to get a fighter plane that fits the requirement and not to get the best fighter plane



Grippen cannot give us 100% TOT because 30%+ tech is from US and other countries... read the thread ull get more detail...

Mig and Rafale can give us 100% TOT also Eurofighter almost 100% IIRC...


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## hal-fgfa

syntax_error said:


> Grippen cannot give us 100% TOT because 30%+ tech is from US and other countries... read the thread ull get more detail...
> 
> Mig and Rafale can give us 100% TOT also Eurofighter almost 100% IIRC...




i really dont know about Eurofighter that it comes with 100% ToT ??

is this right


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## !!craft!!

hal-fgfa said:


> are yar mig35 is the best sabse sasta just 38 million each dude we can buy more than 300 mig35 in the place of 126 typhoon



accordinly the point which you are try to specify,,the 126 eurofighter would cost 126 billlion!!!! wont it??? the india goverment has set a parameter that is 10-12 billion???? so why is the eurofighter even bother of participating???? thats is becaouse its a tender we wont be getting any of the five compititors planes which wins in full fly away condidtion..the prices which you guys are specifying are fly away cost... india will be building the major chunk india ...we are only gonna get 10-15 of them in fly away condidtion....with the labour cost in india there wont be any major diffrence in build prices ...the only problem will be spares....


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## sancho

Sri said:


> I was refering to LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence: COLUMN: M-MRCA, A Difficult Choice For The IAF
> 
> The French Dassault Rafale, the European Consortium Eurofighter Typhoon and the American Boeing F/A-18 Super Hornet are all twin-engined fighters in the 25-30 ton class. All of them are reportedly very expensive, with reported prices ranging from Euro 48 million for the Rafale to Euro 88 million for the Eurofighter and US$ 58 million for the Super Hornet. *Admittedly, these are only notional figures and no vendor/buyer is likely to divulge the real/actual price and the services, equipment, spares/maintenance support that it might include.* Would the IAF want to purchase such heavy duty and expensive (?) aircraft?



I think that explains it, 48 millions could be the price that France pays for their forces. Export customers will have to pay more, but it will mainly depend on how many fighters we will buy. 

Btw, the fact that the report talks about Rafale, or EF as a heavy fighters because they have a high MTOW shows some bias of the writer. Only because that fighter can take that much load doesn't make it heavy and more over, the Mig which is also twin engined and as heavy as is not mentioned at all (because it is not expensive?).

Empty weights:

Gripen NG - 7.1t
F16IN - 8.9t
Rafale - 9t
EF and Mig 35 - 11t
F18SH - 13.8t

So the Rafale, although twin engined, is only as heavy as the single engine F16IN!


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## sancho

hal-fgfa said:


> are yar mig35 is the best sabse sasta just 38 million each dude we can buy more than 300 mig35 in the place of 126 typhoon


Mig 29K without AESA radar, or TVC costs $46 million, which should give a hint on what Mig 35 costs at least, also don't forget that it must be upgraded with western avionics, so it is not as cheap as many people might think. Especially not compared to the single engine fighters and their low operational costs.


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## sudhir007

hal-fgfa said:


> are yar mig35 is the best sabse sasta just 38 million each dude we can buy more than 300 mig35 in the place of 126 typhoon


then why not we built 500 lca it will boost our local industries and it is more cheaper.


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## KS

!!craft!! said:


> accordinly the point which you are try to specify,,*the 126 eurofighter would cost 126 billlion*!!!! wont it??? the india goverment has set a parameter that is 10-12 billion???? so why is the eurofighter even bother of participating???? thats is becaouse its a tender we wont be getting any of the five compititors planes which wins in full fly away condidtion..the prices which you guys are specifying are fly away cost... india will be building the major chunk india ...we are only gonna get 10-15 of them in fly away condidtion....with the labour cost in india there wont be any major diffrence in build prices ...the only problem will be spares....




What..?!?!?!


its 12 billion dude @ 100 mil/plane.


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## sudhir007

Sri said:


> Hi,
> I read in Livefist that the cost of Rafale is around 48 Million EUROs which roughly translates to 60 Million $. I believe the NG, SH costs around the same. If this is true then Rafale may be the best ac financially.
> 
> Want to know from seniors what are the approx costs of the ac participating in MMRCA. I mean with life time spares/support, weapons etc.
> Tx



Look at the Rafale price In FX-2 bid in Brazil it will come at $174 Million.


> http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=4485090
> SAO PAULO - Brazil is going through with the purchase of 36 Rafale fighter jets from France after maker Dassault lopped $2 billion off their price, the newspaper Folha de S. Paulo reported Feb. 4.
> 
> The total deal is worth $10.2 billion,* including $6.2 billion for the fighters themselves - down from a previous figure of $8.2 billion - and $4 billion for maintenance over the next three decades, the daily said.*
> 
> The price cut still makes the Rafale more expensive than two rivals bidding to supply Brazil's air force, the F/A-18 Super Hornet from Boeing and the Gripen NG from Sweden's Saab.
> 
> *The Boeing package was valued at $7.6 billion* and the *Saab offer at $6 billion, according to the newspaper.*
> 
> The French jet also scored behind the two other contenders in a technical evaluation carried out by the air force, which lobbied hard for the Gripen both with the government and in Brazil's media.

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## Marxist

*Gripen NG Demo Flies Far from Its Nest*

Last week the Gripen NG demo was making its international debut by taking part in the last phase of the Indian evaluation trials for the MMRCA (Medium Multi- Role Combat Aircraft) tender in India.

To date the aircraft has flown some 135 test flights in Sweden and is now testing its wings abroad, showing the international arena that next generation Gripen fighter development is on track.

"This achievement just shows the expertise and high technology capability that Sweden boasts in developing and manufacturing a fighter aircraft of this calibre. Several international pilots have already flown and evaluated the Gripen NG demo in Sweden, including pilots from Brazil and India, and we are confident that this aircraft meets or exceeds every operational requirement raised by the Indian Air Force," says Eddy de la Motte, Gripen Campaign Director, India.

*The harsh environment of the Leh airbase, 3,300m high up in the Himalayas, proved to be no match for the Swedish fighter where it cleared the high altitude trials.*

The Gripen NG demo is the flying platform which is being used to train and develop the new technologies and features incorporated into the Gripen NG. The Gripen NG has been specifically developed to meet the operational requirements of countries such as India and Brazil, which require a next-generation fighter with significantly increased combat range and endurance, increased payload and super cruise capability. 

Gripen NG Demo Flies Far from Its Nest


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## nightrider_saulat

i think you people should go for mig-35,that is why because of your three decades long experience on fulcrums


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## sancho

nightrider_saulat said:


> i think you people should go for mig-35,that is why because of your three decades long experience on fulcrums


But unless this don't offer any advantages for IAF, so not a good choice.


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## arya-is-here

well only rafale is best option for IAF 

its not about cost its about the best of best with tech and TOT


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## nightrider_saulat

sancho said:


> But unless this don't offer any advantages for IAF, so not a good choice.



i think it's TVC is among the best engines available today in the world
i think even better then those of rafale and eurofighter


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## sancho

nightrider_saulat said:


> i think it's TVC is among the best engines available today in the world
> i think even better then those of rafale and eurofighter


Rafale has no TVC, EF could get it, but with their delta canard design they belong to the most manouverable fighters even without this tech.
However, for IAF TVC is not an important requirement in MMRCA, because the MKIs already have it and FGFA will get the improved version too.
Mig 35 can simply offer no capability that IAF would not get with MKI, or FGFA, so where is the use then?


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## ramu

> Look at the Rafale price In FX-2 bid in Brazil it will come at $174 Million.



Focus should be on Gripen now.


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## nightrider_saulat

ramu said:


> Focus should be on Gripen now.



is gripen TVC capable


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## SpArK

SAAB has some projects of fitting the EJ230 in the future and ITP of Spain (partner of Eurojet GmbH) said that it has designed a TVC nozzle for the Gripen airframe. The problem with re-engining Gripen with EJ200 is logistics support and minor changes in the interface connections are necessary.

Saab has years ago already investigated the technical and operational
feasibility for re-engineering JAS 39 Gripen with the EJ200 engine.
Both Saab and EUROJET Turbo GmbH concluded that a re-engineering only
shall be considered if there is a customer demand available. From a
technical point of view, the EJ200 engine would fit into the engine bay
of JAS39 Gripen with minor changes applied to the interface connections.
The commercial feasibility of re-engineering JAS39 Gripen would be
supported, if required, by individual business case calculations.

The Thrust vectoring nozzle is offered as an optional item for any of
the EJ200 engine standards.

I hope this answer can help. 


( i googled for answer)


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## sancho

nightrider_saulat said:


> is gripen TVC capable


No, besides the Mig 35 only the EF could offer this capability, but as I said, it won't be an important point anyway.



BENNY said:


> SAAB has some projects of fitting the EJ230 in the future and ITP of Spain (partner of Eurojet GmbH) said that it has designed a TVC nozzle for the Gripen airframe. The problem with re-engining Gripen with EJ200 is logistics support and minor changes in the interface connections are necessary.
> 
> Saab has years ago already investigated the technical and operational
> feasibility for re-engineering JAS 39 Gripen with the EJ200 engine.
> Both Saab and EUROJET Turbo GmbH concluded that a re-engineering only
> shall be considered if there is a customer demand available. From a
> technical point of view, the EJ200 engine would fit into the engine bay
> of JAS39 Gripen with minor changes applied to the interface connections.
> The commercial feasibility of re-engineering JAS39 Gripen would be
> supported, if required, by individual business case calculations.
> 
> The Thrust vectoring nozzle is offered as an optional item for any of
> the EJ200 engine standards.
> 
> I hope this answer can help.
> 
> 
> ( i googled for answer)



Hi Benny, Saab had a competition for an engine of the Gripen NG in the early 2000s and the same GE 414 and EJ 200 was offered and selected the US engine as the winner.
In that time the EJ 200 was only available for twin engine fighters, was new and not mature and TVC was only in the first development stages. Saab already used an earlier version of the GE 404 in the older Gripens, so they offered also more commonality, besides beeing cheaper. That's whay they took the US engine over the European counterpart and why the EJ 200 is not on offer for Gripen NG anymore.
However, that competition was good for the LCA MK2 now, because Eurojet already made the changes at the engine for single engine fighters, the engine is mature now and they even developed TVC. If we fund it we can have it for LCA, but it of course means additional costs. Will be interesting to see if MoD/IAF wants that. But even if not, for LCA the EJ engine is the best choice, lighter, ToT, possibly even SC and most important no airframe re-designs (bigger air intakes). With an good AESA, it would kick LCA MK2 on the same level with Gripen NG.


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## KEETARP

> With an good AESA, it would kick LCA MK2 on the same level with Gripen NG.



Thats too early and to much speculation to assume it would .
Gripen NG has just left the testing board , and is a mature platform with demonstrated proof of capabilities .


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## sancho

LT.PRATEEK said:


> Thats too early and to much speculation to assume it would .
> Gripen NG has just left the testing board , and is a mature platform with demonstrated proof of capabilities .


Of course that's why I said could, but think about what is on offer and compare it with the Gripen.

Radar - Elta 2052 AESA vs. Vixen 1000
Engine - EJ 200 with 90 - 95kN thrust vs GE 414 with 98kN
Weight - 5.6t vs 7.1t
Missiles - Python V / Astra combo vs Iris-T/ AMRAAM
Weapon stations - 7+1 vs 7 or 8+1

In A2G the NG might have an advantage with more payload, but with this config, can you really say the MK2 would be clearly inferior?


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## KEETARP

Look at the comparison of Missile that sums up what i am saying . 
Python5 is not even integrated , ASTRA is still away from operational capability while Gripen has fired AMRAAM/METEOR and ASRAAM/IRiS-T . You are comparing a Matured platform with Speculated specs , way too early . 

Radar is not E/L 2052 , it will be LRDE product , 2052 has just been offered like Zhuk-AE . Its not final . Till then LRDE radar giving performance of VIXEN1000 is just speculation . 

Engine is not finalized yet , you might very well see same Engine .
Let LCA2 leave drawing board , and you can compare them then.

What ever GripenNG we have seen is just a single demo NG tailored made for Indian tender , might be they will end up giving a machine of differnt calibre by the time LCA2 comes . Akin to Rafale block3 vs Block4.

That also brings a big question on LCA2 avionics suite , HUD whether frame-less or not . 
What about Data-Links and their performance 
IRST/FLIR performance .

Its just way too early to jump on conclusion that LCA2 will be at par with Gripen NG


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## CONNAN

MMRCA might be a &#8220;STRIKER&#8221;

BY: IDRW NEWS NETWORK

Sources in IAF have informed idrw.org that, while Indian air force is closely monitoring performance of every aircraft which have come to India for trials, but more closely to weapons testing of the aircraft&#8217;s which have been done in India and also in the vendor country. Indian air force wants to induct aircraft which are Multi-role which literally means that Aircraft can perform both role of a fighter aircraft and a ground attack aircraft.

Defence Expert Rajesh Sharma further explains that concept of Multi-role aircraft&#8217;s have only came in 1980&#8217;s period. Multi-role aircraft&#8217;s are designed to perform equally good both in Aerial combat and also in ground strike, but each aircraft is different in performance and design, Combination ratio of Aerial combat and Strike platform in each multirole aircraft will not be the same, Even when Sukhoi-30 mki is considered as Multi-role aircraft&#8217;s, but its superb aeronautic maneuverability and high AOA (Angle of Attack) makes it more closer to Air superiority fighter then a strike aircraft.

In our previous report we have mentioned that almost half the fleet of Mig-27 will be retired in next five years, and Mig-27 and Jaguar are backbone of the strike fleet in Indian air force. So now it seems that Aircraft with better Strike capability might gain some extra points in the MMRCA competition. Idrw.org don&#8217;t have any information in regards to which aircraft is doing better in this capacity but LEH testing with full payload was done to see which aircraft can also be able to carry highest payload in worst weather condition aircraft might encounter in India .

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## Tejas-MkII

One thing is clear , in the cover of this deal IAF get a excellent chance to fully analyse the most advance version of F-16: its signature,frequency,etc,etc......

And i am very much sure IAF won't waste this opportunity


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## Dash

LT.PRATEEK said:


> Look at the comparison of Missile that sums up what i am saying .
> Python5 is not even integrated , ASTRA is still away from operational capability while Gripen has fired AMRAAM/METEOR and ASRAAM/IRiS-T . You are comparing a Matured platform with Speculated specs , way too early .
> 
> Radar is not E/L 2052 , it will be LRDE product , 2052 has just been offered like Zhuk-AE . Its not final . Till then LRDE radar giving performance of VIXEN1000 is just speculation .
> 
> Engine is not finalized yet , you might very well see same Engine .
> Let LCA2 leave drawing board , and you can compare them then.
> 
> What ever GripenNG we have seen is just a single demo NG tailored made for Indian tender , might be they will end up giving a machine of differnt calibre by the time LCA2 comes . Akin to Rafale block3 vs Block4.
> 
> That also brings a big question on LCA2 avionics suite , HUD whether frame-less or not .
> What about Data-Links and their performance
> IRST/FLIR performance .
> 
> Its just way too early to jump on conclusion that LCA2 will be at par with Gripen NG


Prateek -

Though its hurts a little indian feeling that gripen a better aircraft then LCA, but I will agree its true and you are right in mentioning that we are comparing a matured platform to a not "so" matured platform. Hence I accept that fact.

However, given the time MMRCA is consuming the first AC might be in for delivery by 2015 or so (which ever is selected), it can be speculated that LCA 2 might come up with similar capabilities, but yes it will take time to prove its meatle as far as its avionics are considered.

but we are saying all these as we dont know whats the time line of most if its compenent like Radar, Engine, even Astra A2A missile. and if ever we come to know the time line of fitting these systems to LCA then we can debate further on this topic if LCA is similar to Gripen. but now it nit the case.

However, Gripen will evolve to the stage of Gripen NG maximum, and looking at its body frame, avionics, single engine, and if they want to further develope fripen then it might go to a twin engine class.

So the possibility of Gripen in respect to MRCA is still low as may be after Gripen becomes Gripen NG, LCA2 will arrive with similar abilities..may take a year or two so further I guess.

Today LCA may not be close Gripen, but in future (not so longer) it will be similar to Gripen, but of course if they will improvise Gripen further then it might go to a different class altogather and comapring that with LCA may become irrelevant (Like twin engine and stuff).


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## sancho

connanxlrc1000 said:


> MMRCA might be a STRIKER
> 
> BY: IDRW NEWS NETWORK
> 
> Sources in IAF have informed idrw.org that, while Indian air force is closely monitoring performance of every aircraft which have come to India for trials, *but more closely to weapons testing of the aircrafts which have been done in India and also in the vendor country.* Indian air force wants to induct aircraft which are Multi-role which literally means that Aircraft can perform both role of a fighter aircraft and a ground attack aircraft.
> 
> Defence Expert Rajesh Sharma further explains that concept of Multi-role aircrafts have only came in 1980s period. Multi-role aircrafts are designed to perform equally good both in Aerial combat and also in ground strike, but each aircraft is different in performance and design, Combination ratio of Aerial combat and Strike platform in each multirole aircraft will not be the same, Even when Sukhoi-30 mki is considered as Multi-role aircrafts, but its superb aeronautic maneuverability and high AOA (Angle of Attack) makes it more closer to Air superiority fighter then a strike aircraft.
> 
> In our previous report we have mentioned that almost half the fleet of Mig-27 will be retired in next five years, and Mig-27 and Jaguar are backbone of the strike fleet in Indian air force. *So now it seems that Aircraft with better Strike capability might gain some extra points in the MMRCA competition.* Idrw.org dont have any information in regards to which aircraft is doing better in this capacity but LEH testing with full payload was done to see which aircraft can also be able to carry highest payload in worst weather condition aircraft might encounter in India .



Just as I thought and that again hints clearly to F18SH and Rafale!


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## sancho

LT.PRATEEK said:


> Look at the comparison of Missile that sums up what i am saying .
> Python5 is not even integrated , ASTRA is still away from operational capability while Gripen has fired AMRAAM/METEOR and ASRAAM/IRiS-T . You are comparing a Matured platform with Speculated specs , way too early .
> 
> Radar is not E/L 2052 , it will be LRDE product , 2052 has just been offered like Zhuk-AE . Its not final . Till then LRDE radar giving performance of VIXEN1000 is just speculation .
> 
> Engine is not finalized yet , you might very well see same Engine .
> Let LCA2 leave drawing board , and you can compare them then.
> 
> What ever GripenNG we have seen is just a single demo NG tailored made for Indian tender , might be they will end up giving a machine of differnt calibre by the time LCA2 comes . Akin to Rafale block3 vs Block4.
> 
> That also brings a big question on LCA2 avionics suite , HUD whether frame-less or not .
> What about Data-Links and their performance
> IRST/FLIR performance .
> 
> Its just way too early to jump on conclusion that LCA2 will be at par with Gripen NG



First of all, the Gripen NG is far away of beeing mature, it is still only a prototype yet and only the engine and some weapons was integrated. Saab has decided which radar, IRST and EWS, but these techs are all only under development so far and their capabilities are also not clear yet.

I agree with you that it still should have an advantage over LCA MK2, but just compare the basic specs like design, weight, engine capabilities and thrust, weapon stations, payload, or cost-effectiveness and you will hardly find big advantages for the NG. In some fields the LCA will even have the lead, like t/w ratio, cost-effectiveness, maybe even weapon stations (2 x wingtip stations should be added without any bigger re-designs right?).
In A2A the difference of both will be very small and lies possibly only in the type of weapon they use. No doubt about it that an AMRAAM, or METEOR will be better than Astra, but that would be a comparison of the missiles, not of the fighter itself. The fact is, LCA MK 2 will be in all arms and techs at the same 4+ level as the NG and in pure fighter performance and capablities it can be very close too, it all depends on IAF/MoD which parts they will include.

Btw, the AESA radar will not be a pure indigenous, because that was rejected by IAF and now they search for an co-development parter. By the fact that we have gone with the Elta and the 2032 for similar reasons, should make them also to the first choice for an AESA radar, don't you think? 
The NG will come with the same capability level that is known now, you can't compare it with Rafale F3 and F4, because F4 will only come if a foreign customer funds the further upgrades, otherwise it will be F3 standart. Saab instead don't have a foreign customer that would do so, actually they have enough problems to find customers at all (only Thailand and South Africa so far and in small numbers only, Brazil will go to France for sure). 

Gripen NG will be a good fighter and if we wouldn't have the LCA, it would be a good cost-effective choice, but we have it and the other MMRCAs offers more difference to LCA, besides political, or ToT advantages.


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## vaibhav

If the Gripen NG does win this race; it'd be interesting indeed. In many ways, this bird fulfills both the role of an MRCA (Mirage 2000) and the LCA (Tejas). In effect it'd be a replacement of both the MiG-21 and the MiG-23/27 types in one single go. All this by 2013-14 in sqd. induction. Expect the order to be upped to 200 pretty quick.

Why in the world would the IAF now want an LCA mk2 or whatever that is still to be tested, proven, integrated etc? The NG quite easily performs all the roles that the Tejas could possibly hope to. Bye bye Tejas. Welcome Tejas Redux: AMCA - the next project for the technocrats to play with.

The IAF's biggest requirement is operational performance - quick turnaround, high uptimes, multirole/self escorting ability, hi-fi EW, ECM, Radar, data link, proven design. The single engined Gripen with a host of sensors (AESA, IRST), internal EW suite (ELS, MAWS, LWS, decoys etc), strong datalink, cheap cost of operations, integration of 3rd party weapons etc fulfills all that the IAF ever wanted including satisfying their doctrine of diversification. No wonder they gave it another shot.

Oh yes, they may order some token Tejas for show. Can't really blame them either since the Tejas program was hijacked by technocrats at the expense of operational needs quite early in its history. THis of course means a relatively steep learning curve and longer time frames/delays. Now where is that damned new engine for the Mk2; the requirement iirc was felt way back in 2008 (the good col. shukla had suggested october 2008 as the deadline decision). 2 years gone by and no decision yet. Ditto with the BVR missile. The Saab folks made a decision for the 414 over the EJ-200 real quick, offered it on the NG, and now that bird flies and clears some real tough tests 10000km from home! It seems the Meteor too has been integrated.

For the IAF as an end user, the contrast must be glaring.


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## maithil

^^^ copy-pasting from another place ...are we..?


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## anathema

vaibhav said:


> If the Gripen NG does win this race; it'd be interesting indeed. In many ways, this bird fulfills both the role of an MRCA (Mirage 2000) and the LCA (Tejas). In effect it'd be a replacement of both the MiG-21 and the MiG-23/27 types in one single go. All this by 2013-14 in sqd. induction. Expect the order to be upped to 200 pretty quick.
> 
> Why in the world would the IAF now want an LCA mk2 or whatever that is still to be tested, proven, integrated etc? The NG quite easily performs all the roles that the Tejas could possibly hope to. Bye bye Tejas. Welcome Tejas Redux: AMCA - the next project for the technocrats to play with.
> 
> The IAF's biggest requirement is operational performance - quick turnaround, high uptimes, multirole/self escorting ability, hi-fi EW, ECM, Radar, data link, proven design. The single engined Gripen with a host of sensors (AESA, IRST), internal EW suite (ELS, MAWS, LWS, decoys etc), strong datalink, cheap cost of operations, integration of 3rd party weapons etc fulfills all that the IAF ever wanted including satisfying their doctrine of diversification. No wonder they gave it another shot.
> 
> Oh yes, they may order some token Tejas for show. Can't really blame them either since the Tejas program was hijacked by technocrats at the expense of operational needs quite early in its history. THis of course means a relatively steep learning curve and longer time frames/delays. Now where is that damned new engine for the Mk2; the requirement iirc was felt way back in 2008 (the good col. shukla had suggested october 2008 as the deadline decision). 2 years gone by and no decision yet. Ditto with the BVR missile. The Saab folks made a decision for the 414 over the EJ-200 real quick, offered it on the NG, and now that bird flies and clears some real tough tests 10000km from home! It seems the Meteor too has been integrated.
> 
> For the IAF as an end user, the contrast must be glaring.



Vaibhav sir....atleast give credit to Mrinal..  less you are Mrinal.


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## sancho

vaibhav said:


> If the Gripen NG does win this race; it'd be interesting indeed. In many ways, this bird fulfills both the role of an MRCA (Mirage 2000) and the LCA (Tejas). In effect it'd be a replacement of both the MiG-21 and the MiG-23/27 types in one single go. All this by 2013-14 in sqd. induction. Expect the order to be upped to 200 pretty quick...



Mh, not sure if this is your opinion or not, but there are points you simply forget. 
Yes, Gripen NG can easily take over the roles of LCA, or Mirage 2k, because they are similar fighters for similar roles. Interceptors, with some A2G capabilties. But cancelling LCA in favour of Gripen NG would mean 2 major problems!

1. Two decades of indigenous developments and all the money wasted for nothing.

2. High reliability of foreign countries and vulnerability during war, or sanction times (high content of parts, from different origins in Gripen NG).

But LCA development was aimed exactly at the opposite, to gain experience, improve the indigenous defense industry and to be less reliant on foreign countries!

We still have several problems in the development of a 4. gen fighter, which should make clear that it is simply a dream to believe we could switch to a 5. gen development now. The focus must remain on LCA and even more on LCA MK2 with improved techs and capabilities, without this step we will just see the next big failure!

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## vaibhav

> Mh, not sure if this is your opinion or not, but there are points you simply forget.
> Yes, Gripen NG can easily take over the roles of LCA, or Mirage 2k, because they are similar fighters for similar roles. Interceptors, with some A2G capabilties. But cancelling LCA in favour of Gripen NG would mean 2 major problems!


The above post is my opinion but nt my words



> 1. Two decades of indigenous developments and all the money wasted for nothing.


lca program was there to fulfill the gap tht is their cause of mig 21
which it fails to fulfil on time we have gain experince from this program which we can use in are future programs


> 2. High reliability of foreign countries and vulnerability during war, or sanction times (high content of parts, from different origins in Gripen NG).


since lca was not able to be on time mmrca came into existence according to me gripen is the best option as it will be able to replace MiG-21 and the MiG-23/27 types in one single go


> But LCA development was aimed exactly at the opposite, to gain experience, improve the indigenous defense industry and to be less reliant on foreign countries!
> 
> We still have several problems in the development of a 4. gen fighter, which should make clear that it is simply a dream to believe we could switch to a 5. gen development now. The focus must remain on LCA and even more on LCA MK2 with improved techs and capabilities, without this step we will just see the next big failure!


we have gain enough experince to build a 4 gen aircraft but since the requirement of air airforce is 4 ++ gen fighter right now gripen will provide the power of no b'coz of its low cost as compare to every other fighter and lower maintenace gripen ng has all tech that is present in 4++ gen fighter an we can get it from tot which we can use for are mca 5 gen aircraft.


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## sancho

vaibhav said:


> lca program was there to fulfill the gap tht is their cause of mig 21
> which it fails to fulfil on time we have gain experince from this program which we can use in are future programs
> 
> since lca was not able to be on time mmrca came into existence according to me gripen is the best option as it will be able to replace MiG-21 and the MiG-23/27 types in one single go



No, MMRCA come not because LCA wasn't their on time to replace Mig 21, it came alongside LCA to replace the Migs. Both will replace a part of the Mig 21 fleet, half indigenous, half foreign, the same strategy that MoD has to replace Cheetak and Cheetah/Cheetal fleet. Half will be replaced by indigenous LOH, the other by foreign LUH.



vaibhav said:


> we have gain enough experince to build a 4 gen aircraft but since the requirement of air airforce is 4 ++ gen fighter right now gripen will provide the power of no b'coz of its low cost as compare to every other fighter and lower maintenace gripen ng has all tech that is present in 4++ gen fighter an we can get it from tot which we can use for are mca 5 gen aircraft.



Where do you see experience? In bulding and testing several prototypes? In developing an engine that doesn't even fly in LCA? In developing an radar that also is not integrated in LCA?
No buddy, experience will only come if we finish all these started projects, get them in operational service in numbers. Only then we gain experience to further improve them for future developments!

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## JAMESHAWK85

any news abt rafale


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## SQ8

I thought the Rafale was bought back into the race after some french diplomatic scurrying?. Apparently the IAF evaluation team rejected it since the french were holding back technical data on important aspects.

Still, it would be a surprise if the Gripen does not win. Even though the SAAB team did a boo boo by not bringing the NG. They bought a gripen D for the evaluation but were the first to demonstrate live A2A firing. 

No other jet in the competition save the MiG-35 takes off in 750 feet with a full air superiority load. Loiters for 80 minutes. And can land on your mommy's porch with 4 missiles still hanging out there.
It has competitive electronics and weapons. and ill be damned if that thing just doesn't look darn handsome in IAF colors.


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## sancho

JAMESHAWK85 said:


> any news abt rafale



I hope there will be some reports from the joint exercise with our MKIs in the next days. Would love to see pics of both fighters together!


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## sudhir007

MP to support BAE radar bid - LEP Business - lep.co.uk

The new MP for Fylde has said he will push for Government support to develop a radar for Lancashire-built fighter jets.

Conservative Mark Menzies, who was elected to replace the retiring Michael Jack at the general election, said that developing an E-scan radar to replace the existing M-scan model for the Eurofighter Typhoon would provide a major boost to defence giant BAE Systems&#8217; bid to land lucrative export deals.

It is known that potential buyers of the aircraft, parts for which are made at the firm&#8217;s factories in Warton and Samlesbury, near Preston, are keen for E-scan variety of radar, which provides greater scope for development.

Mr Menzies said that Defence Secretary Liam Fox was &#8220;supportive&#8221; of the potential of developing the radar, but admitted that the pressure on government budgets meant it was far from secure.

He said: &#8220;Whereas at the moment there is not a great deal of difference between the E-scan and M-scan at the moment, there is far more potential to develop the E-scan type.

&#8220;Some critics say that a customer such as Saudi Arabia does not need such a sophisticated radar because the M-scan fulfils its requirement, but if you are spending the kind of money this kind of order costs you want to be sure you are buying the best.

*&#8220;If this technology gives you the edge over the likes of the US, France or the Russians, it is a worthwhile investment.&#8221;
*
He said there was &#8220;huge potential&#8221; for *BAE to benefit from export sales with India and Japan already looking at Typhoon as a possible replacement for their existing fleets.*

In an interview with the Evening Post earlier this year, Kevin Taylor, managing director of BAE&#8217;s Military Air Solutions (MAS) division, said exports were a major focus of its push for sales.

A strategic defence review due to commence later this year will look at spending within the Ministry of Defence, which has had its &#163;40 billion budget protected for this year but is unlikely to be continued in future years.


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## sancho

sudhir007 said:


> He said there was huge potential for *BAE to benefit from export sales with India and Japan already looking at Typhoon as a possible replacement for their existing fleets.*



And that's why it is more than doubtful that they would provide ToT and source codes to a competitior like the Gripen NG, at least as long the EF is still in the competition.
Regarding the export potential of the EF, I think in the current situation, they won't win any other competition. It is a hell of a fighter and the potential for improvements is also great, but that all will come too late, because the delays in development and funding problems. With the new crisis in Europe and the Euro currency, all EF consortium members have to face big cuts in their military budgets. It is doubtful that they will fund and integrate all techs and weapons that were initially planed for the tranche 3 and they will also cut the orders. Without these improvements it won't be interesting for India, or Japan.


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## KEETARP

> Still, it would be a surprise if the Gripen does not win. Even though the SAAB team did a boo boo by not bringing the NG. They bought a gripen D for the evaluation but were the first to demonstrate live A2A firing.
> 
> No other jet in the competition save the MiG-35 takes off in 750 feet with a full air superiority load. Loiters for 80 minutes. And can land on your mommy's porch with 4 missiles still hanging out there.
> It has competitive electronics and weapons. and ill be damned if that thing just doesn't look darn handsome in IAF colors.



Pretty much sums up , my analysis as well . IAF kitty is all full with Twin-Engined Jets 
MKI , MIg29 , Jagurs , PAk-Fa and if MRCA is also then ........ , 

Operational cost, Technicians + per-flight maintenance is just one factor , 
If a fighter jet can take off in Torn out bombed airfield with X-500 distance of MKI . 
Can be hot-refueled in a minute . 
Just *sips* fuel in flight from Banglore to Jaiselmer .

What else can you ask for , that is what IAF ex pilot say and echo everyday .


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## Marxist

*Boeing to offer F-35-like cockpit display for Super Hornet *

Boeing plans to offer an F/A-18E/F Super Hornet with large-area cockpit displays similar to the Lockheed Martin F-35 Joint Strike Fighter as the company pursues new foreign sales from Canada to Japan.

The cockpit upgrade for the Super Hornet is intended to equalise one of the perceived advantages offered by the F-35's multifunction, touchscreen display, which measures 8 x 20in (20 x 51cm).

Boeing has evaluated a display with the same dimensions as the F-35, but found that pilots have preferred a larger 11 x 19in screen, says F/A-18E/F programme manager Mike Gibbons.

The single display can be configured to digitally mimic the Super Hornet's existing cockpit layout, or allow pilots to overlay data from several sources on to a single screen, Gibbons says. The displays can be integrated into both seats for the F/A-18F.

The technology remains in developmental form, but can be integrated in time to meet the timelines for any future sales in foreign markets, he says. Boeing is evaluating bids from undisclosed suppliers to manufacture the displays.

The US Navy, however, has already rejected Boeing's overtures to retrofit the display on its fleet. Although Boeing believes the upgrade would reduce lifecycle maintenance costs, the service does not want to operate two different display technologies at the same time, Gibbons says.

The new cockpit display made its public debut at the Navy League exhibit hall in early May. Boeing also showed off the new technology in Ottawa in early June at the CANSEC conference and exhibition.

Boeing plans to offer the F/A-18E/F for Canada's requirement to replace its ageing CF-18 fleet later this decade. Canada has invested $150 million to participate in the F-35 development programme, but plans to stage a competition for the procurement contract.

*Meanwhile, Boeing is also offering the Super Hornet to buyers in Brazil, Denmark, India, Japan and Kuwait.*

The F/A-18E/F's first international buyer, Australia, has no plans to order the upgraded cockpit, having already received the first five of its 24 two-seat aircraft.

Boeing to offer F-35-like cockpit display for Super Hornet


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## gogbot

LT.PRATEEK said:


> Pretty much sums up , my analysis as well . IAF kitty is all full with Twin-Engined Jets
> MKI , MIg29 , Jagurs , PAk-Fa and if MRCA is also then ........ ,
> 
> Operational cost, Technicians + per-flight maintenance is just one factor ,
> If a fighter jet can take off in Torn out bombed airfield with X-500 distance of MKI .
> Can be hot-refueled in a minute .
> Just *sips* fuel in flight from Banglore to Jaiselmer .
> 
> What else can you ask for , that is what IAF ex pilot say and echo everyday .



We have the Tejas to perform those tasks , We don't need the Griphen to fill that role within the IAF.
By the time we get delivery of the First Griphen we will already have a squadron of Tejas aircraft. So time is not factor here.

Second , even if the Griphen can perform better then the Tejas(which is only speculation) , what ever marginal befits you get as a result , is not worth undermining the decades of effort , for a measly mid term gain. Compared to long term investment.
IAF has all the high performance twin engine fighter aircraft it wants , all it needs to do is ensure the place for the Tejas as it's Single Engine standard Fighter. 

Also not to mention Tejas can perform most of the roles of the Grihen and do so at half the cost. and be built in 2/3 the build time.

Simple put we lose more than we gain , if we get the Giphen.

Given that we have the Tejas , we should leverage our position use the MMRCA for Technological , economic and political gains . Sweden offered us neither of those. 

Eurofighter and Dassult however , make very attractive offers , with the only downside being the high cost.

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## sudhir007

pilot save in Gripen Crash


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## KEETARP

Gog....
You want to say Gripen and Tejas can not exist together in IAF ? ? ? 



> not worth undermining the decades of effort , for a measly mid term gain.


Gripen would kill Tejas program ? ? ?


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## SpArK

LT.PRATEEK said:


> Gog....
> You want to say Gripen and Tejas can not exist together in IAF ? ? ?
> 
> 
> Gripen would kill Tejas program ? ? ?



We want to hear your analysis on Grippen and Tejas existing together.


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## sancho

LT.PRATEEK said:


> Pretty much sums up , my analysis as well . IAF kitty is all full with Twin-Engined Jets
> MKI , MIg29 , Jagurs , PAk-Fa and if MRCA is also then ........ ,
> 
> Operational cost, Technicians + per-flight maintenance is just one factor ,
> If a fighter jet can take off in Torn out bombed airfield with X-500 distance of MKI .
> Can be hot-refueled in a minute .
> Just sips fuel in flight from Banglore to Jaiselmer .
> 
> *What else can you ask for* , that is what IAF ex pilot say and echo everyday .



Like gogbot pointed out, Gripen NG and LCA are meant for the same point defense, close air support roles and should be a cost effective addition too, but if the requirements of IAF and MoD are higher it doesn't fit anymore!

Deep penetration strike for example is not possible, because it can carry only 2 x fuel tanks and has only 2 x stations left for bombs, or stand off missiles, which limits the range. Also a combined deal for IAF and IN is not possible, because there is no carrier version available yet.

ToT, which should be a big requirement will be a problem too, because the high dependance on foreign countries. Be it radar, engine, or weapons, without their clearance nothing is possible and this makes it vulnerable for sanctions too.

Economical advantages are also a point, from the Swiss competition it is known that Saab has the lowest offset offers. 

Political, or strategic advantages are not available at all.

We should also keep in mind what the upgrades of Mirage 2000 and Mig 29 means, because they are also meant for the same point defense and CAS roles like LCA, or Gripen NG too. So they and the at least 140 LCAs that will be ordered for sure, will mean more than 250 fighters on the lower end of IAF, for the same use (not to mention around 120 Bisons). So are there really more fighters needed for the same role?

Btw, the short take off range is not something special for Gripen NG only, EF can take off at 300m and Rafale at 400m distances too.


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## sancho

sudhir007 said:


> pilot save in Gripen Crash



Sudhir, is this the NG prototype, or earlier versions?


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## KEETARP

Benny , its discussed before many times . This MRCA thread running into Pages - Everyone has its own choice 

Someone would say - Get MRCA for *political benefit* , and who will be better than USA for Political gains on World stage , and in next posts he simply rejects US jets saying they are junk or old design and no political benefits . 

Someone would pop up saying Mig35 is old Russkie and *not developed* , next post without knowing status of AESA radar on Eurofighter will say buy Eurofighter . 

Its same everytime going round the same circle .

I support Gripen big time , not bcoz I am SAAB salesman . What I read about requirements and analysis from ex-IAF pilots . 
That sounds more logical and true bcoz they are only person on this planet who can comment , not someone like me or others reading some fancy stuff about Eurofighter and supporting it.
There was very good article posted by SANCHO few days back -
LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence: COLUMN: M-MRCA, A Difficult Choice For The IAF

These are words of retired air-force pilot , and i take it much more credible than any internet warrior like me .


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## sancho

LT.PRATEEK said:


> These are words of retired air-force pilot , and i take it much more credible than any internet warrior like me .



Don't forget that not the air force will take the decision of who will win MMRCA, but the MoD!


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## KEETARP

And only Air-Force will decide who to take in short-list , if they see F16,F18,Mig35 as only possible candidates . 
Even if MoD wants Rafale or Gripen they can go to H*** , chose from those three only .

Ball is in court of IAF , and they are best ones to pick fighter which fills their needs . Extra points dosen't count


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## sudhir007

sancho said:


> Sudhir, is this the NG prototype, or earlier versions?


It is older verson

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## Dash

LT.PRATEEK said:


> And only Air-Force will decide who to take in short-list , if they see F16,F18,Mig35 as only possible candidates .
> Even if MoD wants Rafale or Gripen they can go to H*** , chose from those three only .
> 
> Ball is in court of IAF , and they are best ones to pick fighter which fills their needs . Extra points dosen't count



It will be quite interesting to see who wins, IAF or MOD..
Coz If I have to bring thsi topic, i will say even after IAF selected Airbus as the future air refueller, even after MOD approving, MOF rejected it....and man, they have a point, why such high price for a refueller???..

So dont know what IAF was thinking when they selected that peice.
I will also agree that here its a different ball game all togather. 

Just to make it a little practical. Do you think the decision makers in the IAF will consider whats best for the pilots or whats best for both pilots and the country when it comes to selecting one...

and to add spice, when they will look for which one suits both the needs...we all know there is no one which suits both...

I respect your feelings Lt Prateek, but this is going to be one hell of a decision...

My only fear????..

Hope it doesnt get into Delays.....


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## KEETARP

Now with Multi-Vendor approach , until and unless MoD decides to go with FMS way there wont be a direct purchase . Even if MoD cancels and again goes for multi-vendor approach it will be Air-force to decide which one they want .



> So dont know what IAF was thinking when they selected that peice



No one other than IAF can judge better what country needs and what is best . These men have flown Jets with faulty spare parts even risking their life , proudly to keep head of Indian's sky high when MoD was pocketing money and bureaucracy at its worst . Not a single day an IAF officer came complaining . When they ask for something , its duty of MoD to provide them bcoz they are the best ones to judge . 

There are certain advantages that A330 gives over IL-78 its not that IAF saw and hand-picked new machine . When you chose a platform like these , you look at operational cost , availability of spares, Fuel , etc for full 30 years and then decide what is the cost-effective option . A short term cheap purchase due to higher operational cost may turn out twice expensive than the other platform .

Eurocopter won LUH last time and MoD scrapped IAF choice , in re-bidding + trials only Eurocopter and Ka have made it to last again , and no surprises Eurocopter will win again as it is leading . 
Now Mod is thinking to scrap once again since Ka brought different engines - Bring it on next time also Eurocopter will win . Thats what IAF wants , MoD can cancel as many times as they want but IAF will only select what they need .


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## Dash

> MoD can cancel as many times as they want but IAF will only select what they need .



That is what is the point here.


See its not our wish that matters, and we may debate endlessly. But the deciding authority will be MOD always.May be for whatever reasons....

Thats the price of democracy in some ways. However I dont doubt on what IAF selects and they select the best and *in fact a very professional fighting force what we are proud of*

But what I am talking about is basics.I think its time for IAF and the MOD to get realistic and act togather. We need to project a requirement which is viable from all angles, and MOD needs to get that requirement.

Tom IN might select F35, dont know what is the tender for, when they can have FGFA and all that....its the same equation here like IAF.

The concept of win win is gone past of time. What we can levearage from MRCA depends on how much we can negotiate for. After all we all know the reality.......Long term strategy and wise projection of requirement..

*If this doesnt happen, then IAF will keep selecting and MOD will keep cancelling.*.
leave the frustration apart, time to get practical.

It sometimes worries me when the complications will end...

What my point is, Airbus has advantages over life time(even I agree). So IAF need to do a life time cost analysis and project it to MOD in such a way that it will clearly blink MOD's eyes to see that there in fact is a technical and financial advantage on that aircraft.....the point is why it wasnt done...? how does it server better in saving an airman's life that IL -76 and all that, why wasnt it done...somebody failed to project it the right way!!!!...

This is what I am talking about....


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## gogbot

LT.PRATEEK said:


> Gog....
> You want to say Gripen and Tejas can not exist together in IAF ? ? ?
> Gripen would kill Tejas program ? ? ?



Not exactly , but i was struggling to find the exact word , "undermine" may not have been the best choice.

But Ghiphen NG would have a damaging effect on the Tejas program.

One of the primary factors for successful development of any platforms is support of the user the armed forces themselves.

The Arjun is by far on of the most important developmental saga's in our nation. It's a case study on what happens when User and R&D have deferring PoV. The end product of which , no matter how capable it may be , get's squashed in between never realising its full potential.

Now getting the Saab Griphen will not harm the tejas in a direct way , but knowing the mentality of the officers , i can easily the Griphen being favoured over the Tejas . Missions the Tejas would have done might go to the Griphen , IAF may as a result never use to its full potential.

this could translate to less orders 
IAF not using the fighter to its full potential

essentially i am worried the Tejas may be given the back seat , to the Grihen Many a case.

The end result of which diminishes the need of a Tejas aircraft in the IAF.
However if the Griphen is not there , the Tejas would be very unique to the air force and then the IAF has pressing need for more Tejas aircraft , it will eventually become the work horse of the IAF.

I want the deck scale tipped as much in the favour of the Tejas as possible , the Griphen it tips the scale in the wrong direction , i dont like that.

Not to mention that our export hopes for the Tejas will be damaged since the Griphen will be the Primary competition , how will it look if we tried to sell a plane , while we owned the planes that our competitors make.

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## Dash

hi Gogbot -


> But Ghiphen NG would have a damaging effect on the Tejas program.



I will not completely agree with this, what if IAF being impressed by Gripen and seeing LCA Tejas been so close to Gripen, may rise some interest in them to bring the Tejas closer to Gripen standard, possibility? and then with the TOT acquired through Gripen may somehow be infused to LCA programe to materialize MK2 much quicker than expected...

Its my logic. however I would want rafale to be in our color-), But what Prateek says is not also completely wrong...



> The Arjun is by far on of the most important developmental saga's in our nation. It's a case study on what happens when User and R&D have deferring PoV. The end product of which , no matter how capable it may be , get's squashed in between never realising its full potential



If T-90 couldnt kill Arjun programe then Gripen cant not kill Tejas program. Developement on self reliance and national security are two different roads and I think GOI is has started understanding this.

So Gripen killing LCA is no way related.

There is also a possibility that if Gripen is choosen you can have more numbers than just 126. There are some advantages.

But - 
Polotically- Nothing
Technically- may be something but not substantial.

And there it goes down.....


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## sancho

Dash said:


> It will be quite interesting to see who wins, IAF or MOD..
> Coz If I have to bring thsi topic, i will say even after IAF selected Airbus as the future air refueller, even after MOD approving, MOF rejected it....*and man, they have a point, why such high price for a refueller???*..



Because it is clearly more capable, check this:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/619149-post31.html


Imo IAF is to blame because of the delays in the tanker competition, they didn't set the requirements correctly and that's why they evaluated a pure tanker that can only refuel with probes, with a multi role transport tanker, that can refuel with probes and boom (which means all aircrafts of IAF and IN including P8I)!



Dash said:


> hi Gogbot -
> 
> 
> I will not completely agree with this, what if IAF being impressed by Gripen and seeing LCA Tejas been so close to Gripen, may rise some interest in them to bring the Tejas closer to Gripen standard, possibility? and then with the TOT acquired through Gripen may somehow be infused to LCA programe to materialize MK2 much quicker than expected...
> 
> Its my logic. however I would want rafale to be in our color-), But what Prateek says is not also completely wrong...



LCA can't benefit much from Gripen NG, because it can't offer much ToT, nor important parts that LCA MK2 is lacking like AESA radar, IRST, or engines. Exactly these parts are from foreign countries in the Gripen NG too and must be cleared by them first, before they can be provided to LCA.


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## sancho

LT.PRATEEK said:


> And only Air-Force will decide who to take in short-list , if they see F16,F18,Mig35 as only possible candidates .
> Even if MoD wants Rafale or Gripen they can go to H*** , chose from those three only .
> 
> Ball is in court of IAF , and they are best ones to pick fighter which fills their needs . Extra points dosen't count



Not completely, IAF sets the technical requirements and if one of the fighter does not fullfil it, they can reject it. However, like in all fighter competitions all over the world it will be the MoD that evaluates all points and will take a decision. This will include the technical requirements of IAF of course, but also additional points like gogbot, or I mentioned before.


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## Dash

> Because it is clearly more capable, check this:
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/619149-post31.html



I know that Sancho. and I also said, IAF solely to blame on this. may be the home work wasnt upto the mark or whatever.



> LCA can't benefit much from Gripen NG, because it can't offer much ToT, nor important parts that LCA MK2 is lacking like AESA radar, IRST, or engines. Exactly these parts are from foreign countries in the Gripen NG too and must be cleared by them first, before they can be provided to LCA.



however that was my optimism. But you cant even say that we cant benifit at all. We can get benifts. not all out there in Gripen is American component, if US doesnt permit then other will permit. And the countries know that Saab is bidding, may be SAAB has previous arrangements with them!!!...May be SAAB has previous arrangement with US!!...A company just wont bid marketting its TOT when they know that they cant offer. That sound illogical..

however LAC can gain from AESA radar, and till date we have issue with data linking, may be Gripen with an excellent data link system can offer some advantage. No knowledge gained is small...!!!..

i am not so much in favor of Gripen, what Iam just saying is, Gripen doesnt fit the criteria at all?, LCA will suffer from it...

Completely wrong...


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## sancho

Dash said:


> however that was my optimism. But you cant even say that we cant benifit at all. We can get benifts. not all out there in Gripen is American component, if US doesnt permit then other will permit. And the countries know that Saab is bidding, may be SAAB has previous arrangements with them!!!...May be SAAB has previous arrangement with US!!...A company just wont bid marketting its TOT when they know that they cant offer. That sound illogical..



They have agreements about selling the fighter including the foreign parts, but they are bound to the end user agreements too and without the ok of US for engine for example they can't do anything! Brazil for example couldn't sell their own Tucano trainers to some nations, because the US which supplied the engines, didn't agreed and ToT is even more difficult! Why should the US provide ToT to India via Gripen NG, when we could also by an US fighter with ToT? 
Same goes for Selsex Galileo (Italian/British), why should they provide ToT, if they would love to sell us their EF with the same radar?
The point is, they all want to make money and if the Gripen could be a reason why their fighters can't win, they will block ToT, or even the whole sale like we already saw when US vetoed an Israeli radar, or France rejected RBE 2 for Gripen NG. 
That is politics, when the EF was out in Brazil and it was obvious that ToT and a strategic partnership was important to win (which Saab and Sweden can't offer) suddenly UK supported them and was ready to provide ToT of that radar. It would be the same in MMRCA if EF is out, but as long as they have chances, Gripen NG is a competitor and not a friend.



Dash said:


> however LAC can gain from AESA radar, and till date we have issue with data linking, may be Gripen with an excellent data link system can offer some advantage. No knowledge gained is small...!!!..
> 
> i am not so much in favor of Gripen, what Iam just saying is, Gripen doesnt fit the criteria at all?, LCA will suffer from it...
> 
> Completely wrong...



As I mentioned above, without the Italy and UK agreeing, Sweden can't offer us anything from that radar, but I agree to the data links. Anyway, compared to Rafale, or EF that can offer us way more ToT of different techs and even specific parts for MMRCA and LCA, data links alone is not much right?

I like the Gripen NG actually, but I agree to gogbot and say that its induction would clearly stop the improvement of LCA! 
Why would you waste more money and time on improving it to a level that Gripen NG already has? 
It would be like LCA = Mig 21 and Gripen NG = Mirage 2000, but the problem is, if we focus on LCA, we could bring it easily on a similar level as Gripen NG, because it has the same potential. LCA is simply too close to Gripen, Rafale, F18SH, or EF instead are in a total different class and also clearly more capable, that's why buying them would have less influence on the improvement of LCA.

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## Dash

> They have agreements about selling the fighter including the foreign parts, but they are bound to the end user agreements too and without the ok of US for engine for example they can't do anything! Brazil for example couldn't sell their own Tucano trainers to some nations, because the US which supplied the engines, didn't agreed and ToT is even more difficult! Why should the US provide ToT to India via Gripen NG, when we could also by an US fighter with ToT?
> Same goes for Selsex Galileo (Italian/British), why should they provide ToT, if they would love to sell us their EF with the same radar?
> The point is, they all want to make money and if the Gripen could be a reason why their fighters can't win, they will block ToT, or even the whole sale like we already saw when US vetoed an Israeli radar, or France rejected RBE 2 for Gripen NG.
> That is politics, when the EF was out in Brazil and it was obvious that ToT and a strategic partnership was important to win (which Saab and Sweden can't offer) suddenly UK supported them and was ready to provide ToT of that radar. It would be the same in MMRCA if EF is out, but as long as they have chances, Gripen NG is a competitor and not a friend.



This is getting hotter....
Ok I will argue here that you are somewhat trying to give evdences to support your own conclusion of Gripen coming in the way of LCA. However developement of Arjun couldnt be stopped by T-90 so that gives me a confidence that there are no links btn LCA and Gripen. 

In fact there is no link btn LCA and any of the MRCA contenders. As far we could go to LCA Mk2 which can only be fielded by 2015, by the same time we will be getting MRCA planes....See there is no linkage...

I cant be wrong in saying that for all possible avionics and engine for LCA MK2 and further we already have tied ourselves up with some or the other foreign partners. Looking even at engine, Lets says GE F414 or EJ, this is also fixed. MCA will have or possibly have kaveri for which France is helping us..

So we have already far too ahead, and thanks to somebody who has framed out how we will develop our own fighter, even if there were no MRCA...its no link. Every bit of LCA which is under developement is already preplanned, and no body actually saw MRCA as contributor in LCA program!!..

It can only be a multiplier at best and thats all, something like a value addition.

See Sancho, I am not favoring any aircraft or nither Iam undermining any aircraft. Each one here is a capable aircraft and we all know that. I would always say we dont have much gain if we buy Gripen. BUt I still dont see this as an obstacle in developement of LCA.

Theough US has blocked Venezuela and some other countries from getting tucanos, it also has sold this aircraft to Chile and Columbian airforce...I would agree to "some" extent that US can block things India, But what are the chances?

India has gone past to the stage where it simply cant be ignored. Everybody is eying business with India. There is a difference in refusing Venezuela and there is a difference between ignoring India. Will US, UK or even Italy do that.

We have all known to the fact that this MRCA has surpassed to a level of geopolitical game. So when we talk about that stopping Sweden from selling the TOT (after all we know what is TOT, huh)...will have political remifications in its own state. Something India will not remain silent about and the relationship will bear a black mark and may run into trouble..

Just think will US,UK and Italy will want to hurt the relationship just for a reason that they couldnt sell a figher plane?, doesnt make sense to me. Its not business. Its politics again....The game is played in the lavel of Politics is much higher and complex than political game played btn states. 

Imagine entire deal is a sitting duck for US not giving the TOT!!!!

That will be big blow to a blossoming relationship. Where US interests are just bigger than selling figher planes to India. Its simply much beyond that.

How much foreign part does Typhoon include, how much TOT we will get when we buy F-18 or F-16, how much TOT will we get in, so called improving LCA buy buying rafale from France?

Long time ago there were LGB for Mirages. One day in pokhran when the bombs were getting tested, the pylons wouldnt open and bombs werent released...We got a TOT on that bomb...

Everybody wondered why the bombs arent dropping...Did I forget that that the French forgot to provide the source code to make the bomb compatible with the plane?.....I wonder...!!

The whole TOT is just a eye wash...LCA developement is a different game all togather..LCA and MRCA planes, which ever it is, is not linked at all....

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## KEETARP

> The whole TOT is just a eye wash...LCA developement is a different game all togather..LCA and MRCA planes, which ever it is, is not linked at all....



^^^^^Great point and post 

But Dash , its of no help . If a person has made up his mind that LCA is equal or better than Gripen , we cant do anything . 
Gripen is a threat to LCA is then just baseless , if LCA is so good why would Gripen pose a threat . 
Tejas's plight or merit dosen't rest's on Gripen . Requirement and shortage of LCA is such , even if you order 200 Gripen , to make up falling numbers LCA still needs to be inducted in nos more than 200 . 

It can only help , make LCA even more advanced . Why dont u look at LUH program HAL said in 2005 they can make LUH in 3 years time , still IAF decided to go two-way . 
Buy similar machine from from Europe and HAL , LUH later . If eurocopter and LUH can co-exist , why not Tejas and gripen . 
Don't bring time issue in between bcoz if it was this Tender wouldn't have got cancelled and is on verge of it again . By the time next Trials end LUH would be flying 

We will talk about it in detail when MCA flies and FGFA starts production in2020 , then we will ask why inducting FGFA its a waste and will kill MCA .

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## Prometheus

*Eurofighter to quote price for IAF order this month*

Berlin: European aerospace consortium Eurofighter GmbH will submit its bid price this month for hard-selling 126 of its advanced fourth generation fighters to the Indian Air Force (IAF), a top consortium official said Wednesday. 

Eurofighter completed the field evaluation trials of its medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) Typhoon in April. 

"We are submitting our bid to the Indian government for the IAF order later this month. The flight trials of the supersonic strike fighter have been successfully completed in two phases, which began in February," Eurofighter chief executive Enzo Casolini said. 

The consortium is one of the six contenders for the prestigious IAF order, estimated to be about $10 billion. 

The IAF plans to acquire 18 of these in ready-to-fly condition, with the remaining 118 being manufactured by the Indian defence behemoth Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) under technology transfer and licensed production, to replace its ageing Russian MiG-21 fleet and enhance its strike capability. 

The US-based Lockheed Martin F-16s and Boeing's F/A-18IN Super Hornet, French D'Assault's Rafale, Swiss SAAB's Gripen and Russian MiG-35 are the other five bidders for the MMRCA order. 

"We had demonstrated Typhoon's outstanding operational capabilities during the flight trials when experienced IAF test pilots flew two of them under specific Indian conditions starting in Bangalore Feb 22," Casolini said at the 100th Berlin International Air Show on the outskirts of the German capital. 

The IAF has formed two teams of two test pilots each for flight trials. In the first phase, the technical evaluation was completed in early 2009 after the six vendors responded to its request for proposals (RFP) in 2008. 

The fortnight trials included flying the twin-engine Typhoons at Jaisalmer in Rajasthan and Leh in the northern border state of Jammu & Kashmir to demonstrate its desert and high altitude capabilities in early March. 

In the run-up to the trials, the shortlisted IAF test pilots and engineers had undergone extensive training in Germany. 

"The final phase of flight trials were conducted in Europe to test the fighter's cutting edge weapons systems and advanced sensors. The exercises included dropping precision guided munitions and launching air-to-air and air-to-ground missiles," Casolini added. 

Eurofighter used two Typhoons of the German Air Force's squadron 73, which is based at Laage in northern Germany. 

The consortium flew in three twin engine canard-delta wing Typhoons to the Bangalore international air show (Aero India) in Feb 2009 to showcase its awesome strike capabilities. 

As the new generation real multi-role/swing-role combat aircraft, 220 Typhoons are already in service with the air forces of six nations - Germany, Italy, Spain, Britain, Austria and Saudi Arabia. 

The Eurofighter consortium consists of four partner firms Alenia Aeronautica/Finmeccanica in Italy, BAE Systems in Britain, EADS CASA in Spain and EADS Deutschland in Germany.Eurofighter to quote price for IAF order this month


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## sudhir007

ILA: Diehl, EADS give Hope to Indian Eurofighter campaign

Diehl BGT Defence and EADS are offering Germany's Hope and Hosbo glide weapons to potential buyers, including as part of a proposed Eurofighter Typhoon package for the Indian air force. Previously released from a Panavia Tornado during successful flight trials with Germany's WTD 91 test centre, the air-to-surface weapons were the subject of loading trials at EADS's Manching site near Munich in April. The company is heading the Eurofighter consortium's campaign for India's medium multirole combat aircraft contest, which seeks 126 fighters


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## gogbot

Dash said:


> hi Gogbot -
> I will not completely agree with this, what if IAF being impressed by Gripen and seeing LCA Tejas been so close to Gripen, may rise some interest in them to bring the Tejas closer to Gripen standard, possibility? and then with the TOT acquired through Gripen may somehow be infused to LCA programe to materialize MK2 much quicker than expected...
> 
> Its my logic. however I would want rafale to be in our color-), But what Prateek says is not also completely wrong...



That's an optimistic scenario , that is also possible.
But the Arjun development saga, has left me with a bitter taste.

Again i want to stress it's not so much what the Griphen will do to the Tejas program.

But the kind of reaction the IAF may have. It's a concern that if they have more single engine fighters of the same class , same role and almost same everything.

The need for the number of Tejas aircraft will decrease



Dash said:


> If T-90 couldnt kill Arjun programe then Gripen cant not kill Tejas program. Developement on self reliance and national security are two different roads and I think GOI is has started understanding this.



How many Arjun do we have , at best 248

What happened to the thousands of orders .

The Arjun came back when a last ditch attempt was made to expose the Indian Army's folly.

Had the Comparitive trials , which took 3 years from suggestion to actual trial, Not happened. Where would the Arjun be today.

At least we can be happy that the Arjun has been proven as good tank. Contrary to all Indian army claims. 

But the damage done to its reputation can never be repaired.

The Arjun wont be seeing orders in the 1000's any time soon.

Arjun is still alive , but the induction of the T-90 has dealt the tank sever damage.



LT.PRATEEK said:


> But Dash , its of no help . If a person has made up his mind that LCA is equal or better than Gripen , we cant do anything .



You have the expectation that Gripen is naturally going to be superior to the Tejas's .

Educate me on the finer points then, 

Why can't the Tejas do everything that the Gripen can do
where is it lacking and why do we need the Gripen ?

But , what ever your answer is and i would like to hear it

TEjas and Gripen compete and are equal on one very important factor economy.
Both planes are relatively cheap , easy to maintain , easy to make and fairly sophisticated , Gripen may be more so then tejas.

That is where the competition , and collision of requirements occur. 



LT.PRATEEK said:


> Gripen is a threat to LCA is then just baseless , if LCA is so good why would Gripen pose a threat .
> Tejas's plight or merit dosen't rest's on Gripen . Requirement and shortage of LCA is such , even if you order 200 Gripen , to make up falling numbers LCA still needs to be inducted in nos more than 200 .



I said it my self , the Tejas program does not depend on the gripen.

But i assert my point Gripen has an effect on the Tejas platform , at the very least on a perception bases 

It is navity to say the Gripen plane does not factor into the Tejas program at all.

Even if its small chance , i would prefer not to take that list, The import lobby's effect on the Arjun program was plain to see for everyone.

However this is not the Arjun , The tejas project has much better backers and support. Inducting Gripen wont do anything initially.

But in the medium term , can the IAF officers ensure that the Tejas gets the benefit higher requirements and not the negative of unfounded favouritism.

All it take is a few officers preferring the Gripen over the Tejas .Wgi knows what kind of decision could be made as a result.

The Tejas and Gripen as the same class of jet , and have the appeal of being economically competitive. They have to many similarity's that if any form of favouritism was allowed to take place it would have a negative impact on the other.




LT.PRATEEK said:


> It can only help , make LCA even more advanced . Why dont u look at LUH program HAL said in 2005 they can make LUH in 3 years time , still IAF decided to go two-way .
> Buy similar machine from from Europe and HAL , LUH later . If eurocopter and LUH can co-exist , why not Tejas and gripen .
> Don't bring time issue in between bcoz if it was this Tender wouldn't have got cancelled and is on verge of it again . By the time next Trials end LUH would be flying



Like i said the odd's can go either way.

I am not saying it has to , i am saying it can.
Past experience with the Arjun provides a clear example

I wouldn't have have Both the Tejas and Gripen in the IAF.

But there is also a chance that with the Gripen , it may have a negative effect. Even if that negative effect is a mere reduction of the tejas aircraft by 64 planes , from what ever number will be order. Because those orders went to more Gripens .

I am simply not willing to pay that price.



LT.PRATEEK said:


> We will talk about it in detail when MCA flies and FGFA starts production in2020 , then we will ask why inducting FGFA its a waste and will kill MCA .



That is different scenario , taken up with much better planning.
MCA relies on the FGFA. That was planned out to work in tandem.

Both jets also serve different requirements.


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## Dash

> That's an optimistic scenario , that is also possible.
> But the Arjun development saga, has left me with a bitter taste.
> 
> Again i want to stress it's not so much what the Griphen will do to the Tejas program.
> 
> But the kind of reaction the IAF may have. It's a concern that if they have more single engine fighters of the same class , same role and almost same everything.
> 
> The need for the number of Tejas aircraft will increase



Hi Gogbot -

I agree and echo your voice that, the numbers of LCA must increase..
We are probabbly missing something here..when we all just say 500 tejas need to be in production...But we are not getting into a realistic scenario here..

1. Whats the current squadron strength.
2. What the IAF in co-ordination with GOI envisage the squadron strength to be in future.
3. How much of indegeneous content need to be in our tools.
4. How much of foreign content will be there.
5. Lastly how much help can be bought in the entire process of acquiring MRCA and FGFA. 

Iam sure this must be the plan of action for Airforce, if not fully but something in these lines.

These are all interlinked and its a simple yet complex function of Y= F(x)...
Where the first two points are individual Ys, the last points are the Xs.

By just looking at the sanctioned squadron strength of IAF, which is roughly 42 squadrons and if each squadron will have 18-20 fighters theen you get a number which is 840 approx.

Mig 21 - 121, Mig 29-69, Su30mki - 230 (additional 42, talks on table). MIrage- 51, MIg -27148 and Jaguar -88. which is equal to 39 squadrons, but this will be future squadron strength, sometime to eb realised in 2015.

By End of 2015 - MRCA 126 will start getting inducted and by 2020. 833, so take 840 AC will be fielded taking the squadron numbers to 42.

So if the sanctioned squadron will be realised by all foreign aircrafts then the question arises.

Where does LCA come into picture....? It will fill the numbers of AC that will retire...121 Migs wont be there. some of 148 Mig-27 wont be there, Jaguar might be still there...

So taking about the numbers of 121+ lets say 80 MIg 27s will be 200 fighter planes....will be the gap again.

Where LCA is an airdefense and interceptor which will mostly replace the migs. Coz Mig-27 is a strike aircraft and a bomber.....

Mostly the MIg-27 might get replaced by FGFA.

So we get a number finally 121 LCA must have to be there, By 2020. Which is a good number. And please dont be in doubt. This has to be the case. Coz the vision is to acquire 42 squads by 2020.

and Iam saying 121 LCAs be it in Mk1 or MK2 will make their place.
The only issue I see here is the availability of production lines. but I wthink that can be taken care of.

So I have no doubt that LCA will not be there. Regardless of who comes and who goes it doesnt matter.



> How many Arjun do we have , at best 248
> 
> What happened to the thousands of orders .
> 
> The Arjun came back when a last ditch attempt was made to expose the Indian Army's folly.
> 
> Had the Comparitive trials , which took 3 years from suggestion to actual trial, Not happened. Where would the Arjun be today.
> 
> At least we can be happy that the Arjun has been proven as good tank. Contrary to all Indian army claims.
> 
> But the damage done to its reputation can never be repaired.
> 
> The Arjun wont be seeing orders in the 1000's any time soon.
> 
> Arjun is still alive , but the induction of the T-90 has dealt the tank sever damage.



I wont comment much on this thing as we all know, this is past and now at least I am sure of one fact.

If DRDO has pushed for comparative trials then I can beat my chest and say that GOI is behind it. So we can say that there is at least a *"Government will"* strong enough to send a strong message to our armed forces..

That is past, no need to stay in the past and damage our future goals. when you develope something things are bound to go wrong...

Arjun is still the most respected and succesful story of our indegenous program.

Time to be optimistic.


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## sancho

LT.PRATEEK said:


> ^^^^^Great point and post
> 
> But Dash , its of no help . If a person has made up his mind that LCA is equal or better than Gripen , we cant do anything .
> Gripen is a threat to LCA is then just baseless , if LCA is so good why would Gripen pose a threat .
> Tejas's plight or merit dosen't rest's on Gripen . Requirement and shortage of LCA is such , even if you order 200 Gripen , to make up falling numbers LCA still needs to be inducted in nos more than 200 .



I think you are the one that don't want to see the similarity of both fighters, so let me point it out for you once again. Just compare LCA MK1 and Gripen C/D specs, that are already available (unlike the full specs of NG, or MK2) and you hardly can deny it.

*Design:* LCA and Gripen are 4th gen multi role, single engine, delta wing fighters, only difference are the canards of the Gripen.

*Radar, avionics, weapons:* both have multi mode, pulse doppler radars, have fully digital-, glass cockpit, are BVR and PGM capable.

*Roles:* both for point defense and close air support



*Specs (advantage for Gripen red, advantage LCA green):*

*Composites:* Gripen 25% / LCA 45%
*Empty weight:* 6800 Kg / 5680 Kg
*Max takeoff weight:* 14000 Kg / 13500 Kg
Powerplant: Volvo Aero RM12 (GE 404 derivate) / General Electric F404-GE-IN20 
Dry thrust: 54 kN / 53.9 kN
*Thrust with afterburner:* 80.5 kN / 85kN
*Range with drop tanks:* 3200 Km / 3000 Km
*Service ceiling:* 15240 m / 16000 m
*Payload:* 5300 Kg / 4000 Kg
*Weapon stations:* 7+1 (targeting pod) / 7+1


As you can see mate, both are more than similar in design, roles, capabilities and performance and if at all, the Gripen has only a slight advantage! 

Of course LCA MK2 is still under evaluation only and not all of its specs are cleared yet, but just like the Gripen NG it will feature 4.5 techs like AESA radar, IRST and an improved engine. You simply can't say that the NG would have a clear advantage over it, like the Rafale, or EF would offer.
So instead of ordering 200 Gripen NGs (that will also be licence produced at the same time HAL will produce LCA MK2 too),wouldn't it be the better idea to take 126 more capable MMRCAs that offers also additional advantages and increase the number of LCA MK2 instead? 




LT.PRATEEK said:


> It can only help , make LCA even more advanced .



Please understand that it can not! Saab is not in the situation to offer LCA anything else besides the data links that Dash mentioned before, because for all other main techs they are also just a customer only!

Can they be a co-development partner for Kaveri engine? No, because they have also no own engine and just like we do, buy a foreign one.
Can they be a co-development partner for AESA radar? No, because they also have no own AESA development, they also searched for a partner and now just bought one for the NG.
Can they provide us an IRST? No, they also just bought it from Selsex Galileo.
Can they help to make N-LCA carrier capable? No, because they have never developed a carrier fighter.

As you can see, they are as dependent on foreign parts and help as we are and that's why they can't be a help.



LT.PRATEEK said:


> Why dont u look at LUH program HAL said in 2005 they can make LUH in 3 years time , still IAF decided to go two-way .
> Buy similar machine from from Europe and HAL , LUH later . If eurocopter and LUH can co-exist , why not Tejas and gripen .
> Don't bring time issue in between bcoz if it was this Tender wouldn't have got cancelled and is on verge of it again . By the time next Trials end LUH would be flying



You are missing 2 points here! One why IAF/MoD wanted the split for LUH, as well as for LCA and MMRCA? Because they wanted one part replaced by a proven aircraft which offers less delays, or problems. That is simply a risk reduction strategy! 

Secondly nobody said that LCA and Gripen couldn't be used alongside eachother, the problem lies in gaining experience and know how for indigenous developments!
HALs LUH will be the first newly developed indigenous helicopter that will have so many indigenous parts and without that much help from foreign countries. This is only possible because we had other developments like Dhruv and LCH before that. LCA development instead is similar to Dhruv with much foreign contend, so if we don't use this development to gain as much as possible from it, we will also have problems in later developments!

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## INDIAISM

Dash said:


> Hi Gogbot -
> 
> I agree and echo your voice that, the numbers of LCA must increase..
> We are probabbly missing something here..when we all just say 500 tejas need to be in production...But we are not getting into a realistic scenario here..
> 
> 1. Whats the current squadron strength.
> 2. What the IAF in co-ordination with GOI envisage the squadron strength to be in future.
> 3. How much of indegeneous content need to be in our tools.
> 4. How much of foreign content will be there.
> 5. Lastly how much help can be bought in the entire process of acquiring MRCA and FGFA.
> 
> Iam sure this must be the plan of action for Airforce, if not fully but something in these lines.
> 
> These are all interlinked and its a simple yet complex function of Y= F(x)...
> Where the first two points are individual Ys, the last points are the Xs.
> 
> By just looking at the sanctioned squadron strength of IAF, which is roughly 42 squadrons and if each squadron will have 18-20 fighters theen you get a number which is 840 approx.
> 
> Mig 21 - 121, Mig 29-69, Su30mki - 230 (additional 42, talks on table). MIrage- 51, MIg -27148 and Jaguar -88. which is equal to 39 squadrons, but this will be future squadron strength, sometime to eb realised in 2015.
> 
> By End of 2015 - MRCA 126 will start getting inducted and by 2020. 833, so take 840 AC will be fielded taking the squadron numbers to 42.
> 
> So if the sanctioned squadron will be realised by all foreign aircrafts then the question arises.
> 
> Where does LCA come into picture....? It will fill the numbers of AC that will retire...121 Migs wont be there. some of 148 Mig-27 wont be there, Jaguar might be still there...
> 
> So taking about the numbers of 121+ lets say 80 MIg 27s will be 200 fighter planes....will be the gap again.
> 
> Where LCA is an airdefense and interceptor which will mostly replace the migs. Coz Mig-27 is a strike aircraft and a bomber.....
> 
> Mostly the MIg-27 might get replaced by FGFA.
> 
> So we get a number finally 121 LCA must have to be there, By 2020. Which is a good number. And please dont be in doubt. This has to be the case. Coz the vision is to acquire 42 squads by 2020.
> 
> and Iam saying 121 LCAs be it in Mk1 or MK2 will make their place.
> The only issue I see here is the availability of production lines. but I wthink that can be taken care of.
> 
> So I have no doubt that LCA will not be there. Regardless of who comes and who goes it doesnt matter.
> 
> 
> 
> I wont comment much on this thing as we all know, this is past and now at least I am sure of one fact.
> 
> If DRDO has pushed for comparative trials then I can beat my chest and say that GOI is behind it. So we can say that there is at least a *"Government will"* strong enough to send a strong message to our armed forces..
> 
> That is past, no need to stay in the past and damage our future goals. when you develope something things are bound to go wrong...
> 
> Arjun is still the most respected and succesful story of our indegenous program.
> 
> Time to be optimistic.


i think iaf shall buy atleast 400 lca tejas{20 aircrafts/squad} reason.......at present iaf has around 350-380 mig 21 in their inventory from which around 250 will retire by 2011...and by 2020 around 140 *mig 27*,121 *mig 21bison *and around 100 *jaguar* will retire................so the total number of aircrafts that will be retired in next decade is around 540{not to 4get at present IAF has around 34 or 35 squad}on the other hand we will be getting around 250-300 aircrafts{according to the present deals(126 mrca+120 su 30mki +42 su 30mki[deal is not signed yet])}+around 18 pakfa's...............

by 2020 u will have

15 squads of su 30mki{18 aircraft/squad}
6 squadron of mrca
1 squadron of pakfa
3 squadron of mig 29
2 or 3 squadron of miraage 2000
7 squadron of lca tejas{140 will be ordered}
--------------
33 squadrons


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## sancho

Dash said:


> This is getting hotter....
> Ok I will argue here that you are somewhat trying to give evdences to support your own conclusion of Gripen coming in the way of LCA. However developement of Arjun couldnt be stopped by T-90 so that gives me a confidence that there are no links btn LCA and Gripen...



Hehe, actually you gave the best example how foreign arms gave problems to indigenous developments! 
Now compare that with LCA and MMRCA, 99 + 49 optional engines for MK2 are under evaluation, but MMRCA is for 126 + 64 optional, already less than LCA. If IAF/MoD wants to order more fighters and they could produce more LCAs, or licence produce more foreign fighters, exactly the same choice IA had with Arjun and T90! 

Regarding the links between LCA and MMRCA, just look at my last post and look where co-developments between MMRCA members for LCA techs are possible.

Regarding sanctions, or vetos against us, US and UK posed sanctions on us before, UK protested even the sale of old Islander aircrafts to Burma (EUM) and look at the problems we have with the US about CISOMA contract.
Don't believe that they will do any favour for us that is against their interests. Brazil instead learned from these problems with the US and search for an independent, strategic partner that don't offer these risks. 

And how important ToT is for MoD should be obvious by the fact that they asked for unusual much ToT in the MMRCA competition. Also see how important ToT was in the MKI deal, do you think without ToT from Russia we would be able to produce nearly all parts of the MKI in India now? That was important because we learned from the problems with sanctions and spare supply from foreign nations in the past.


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## Dash

> i think iaf shall buy atleast 400 lca tejas{20 aircrafts/squad} reason.......at present iaf has around 350-380 mig 21 in their inventory from which around 250 will retire by 2011...and by 2020 around 140 mig 27,121 mig 21bison and around 100 jaguar will retire



We dont have 350-380 Mig 21s..we just have 121. Even if you retire 140 Mig 27, 121 Migs abd 100 Jaguars. You cant replace all of them by LCA as LCA has a limited role so far.

Please note that Jaguars are nuclear capable bombers too. You need a fighter like FGFA to replace this fleet...


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## sancho

Dash said:


> *We dont have 350-380 Mig 21s*..we just have 121. Even if you retire 140 Mig 27, 121 Migs abd 100 Jaguars. You cant replace all of them by LCA as LCA has a limited role so far.
> 
> Please note that Jaguars are nuclear capable bombers too. You need a fighter like FGFA to replace this fleet...



Dash, we have:

90 x MiG-21 M/MF
56 x MiG-21Bis
54 x MiG-21FL (2nd line fighters)
108 x MiG-21 Bison

Exept the Bisons (till 2020) they will be phased out in the next 2 years and must be replaced too, they all wil by LCA and MMRCA.


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## INDIAISM

Dash said:


> We dont have 350-380 Mig 21s..we just have 121. Even if you retire 140 Mig 27, 121 Migs abd 100 Jaguars. You cant replace all of them by LCA as LCA has a limited role so far.
> 
> Please note that Jaguars are nuclear capable bombers too. You need a fighter like FGFA to replace this fleet...


iaf will retire around 200 mig 21 till 2011 and after that we will have 121 mig 21(my suggestion don't follow wikipedia blindly)and as far as nuclear capability of jags r concern.........we will have around 270 su 30mki and all of them can carry nuclear bombs...................and don't 4 get even rafale can carry nuclear bomb{if we go for it}+ we will get around 18 pakfa by 2020..we will have around 410 fighter which r capable enough to carry nuclear bombs.........how much more do u want...........now comming back to the topic i think we can replace mig 27 fleet and mig 21 fleet with lca tejas


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## sancho

*Just found the older Graphic of the Jas 39 Gripen and where its parts come from:*




*This was the changed graphic for the Brazilian competition (looks better if you have one flag for EU, instead of different once for UK, France and Germany):*



In that time Saab hoped to co-develop an AESA radar, but now it is just bought from from Selsex Galileo, just like the IRST. Which shows that except of the airframe and radardome, only minor avionic parts like EWS, data links, Flight Control Systems and System Computers are really from Sweden.


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## KEETARP

> Just compare LCA MK1 and Gripen C/D specs, that are already available (unlike the full specs of NG, or MK2) and you hardly can deny it



That is not true , why compare with old specs ,NG is fully complete and tested . 
If you missed the news a NG with full and final specs + with all weapon integration flew to India. All the data is available with IAF who not only hold the brochure but have flown Gripen-NG themselves sitting in the forward seat . 
leave LCA mark2 which hasn't left drawing board , even LCA-1 has not fired a single guided missile or bomb . 
You believe that in time LCA2 comes , SAAB officials would be sitting in their office resting and not planning Gripen- NNGG


If you compare fighter without tech inside 
then Mig29s = Eurofighter , pointless when we are talking off which one is superior 
Its simply like Iran's FLIR = US FLIR



> Design: LCA and Gripen are 4th gen multi role, single engine, delta wing fighters, only difference are the canards of the Gripen


Dosen't count 
What is the AoA , sustained turn rate , Max speed , rate of climb , sea-level speed , altitude - compare them that will decide which one will win air-warfare .



> *Radar*, avionics, weapons: both have multi mode, pulse doppler radars, have fully digital-, glass cockpit, are BVR and PGM capable


Dosen't proves MMR = Vixen1000
Radar is Vixen1000 , its an AESA and has been integrated with all Gripen's weapons . Gripen flew to India and fired A2s weapons .



> are BVR and PGM capable


Is capable and would be capable 
Dosen't mean METEOR = ASTRA/R77



> avionics


IRST/FLIR ????
MIDS TAIDLS - Tactical datalink ????



> Roles: both for point defense and close air support


Gripen can perform much more role than that , depends on req of Air-force and what role did Mig21 had.



> Empty weight: 6800 Kg / 5680 Kg





> Powerplant: Volvo Aero RM12 (GE 404 derivate) / General Electric F404-GE-IN20
> Dry thrust: 54 kN / 53.9 kN
> Thrust with afterburner: 80.5 kN / 85kN



Living with old specs aren't we F114 ? ? ? its final and tested and flown 
If I have T/W ratio to supercruise my Boggy or perform 9G , dosen't it count 



> Range with drop tanks: 3200 Km / 3000 Km



Old specs 
Article few months back - 


> *The Demonstrator project team has affirmed that they have finished, and successfully verified,the flight tests of the electro-optical Missile Approach Warning System (MAW) and the new fuel system with larger internal fuel tanks. The NG with its extended range is crucially different from the JAS 39 C/D in this particular area*.


 . i would say why not 4000 vs 3000



> Gripen has only a* slight *advantage


This slight advantage will matter in war , 
and there is just slight advantage of Eurofighter over Mig35 



> You simply can't say that the NG would have a clear advantage over it, like the Rafale, or EF would offer


Then Rafale and Eurofighter come with disadvantage of their own 

*Supercruise* - we are talking off armed boggie and not clean one
*Flight hour cost* - Does any one of the has less than $3000
*Hot refuel *- Any one them offers such thing , 
*Performance at high altitude like LEH , how many failed *
*Lower Fly away cost and lower operational life-time cost - Can any of others match Gripen ???*
*How many double engined fighters and high operational cost you need , I would rather prefer a fighter that can take off from Torn air-fields or Roads , can Hot refuel and always provides a economical option .*



> Please understand that it can not! Saab is not in the situation to offer LCA anything else besides the data links that Dash mentioned before, because for all other main techs they are also just a customer only



*For most of tech LCA is not dependent on MRCA , we have diff JV for tht*
SNMECA,- for engine whether Rafale looses or not
EADS - for consultation whether Eurofighter wins or not
Israel for EW suite - whetehr India picks EL2052 or not
AESA tech - JV to be decided , can be NIIR/ELTA/Selex any one .
Engine- GE or EJ2000 irrespective of F18/Eurofighter 
Avionics/IRST /Datalinks from BEL 

I now ask what does Eurofighter offer us for LCAmk2 .

This is the 3 or 4th time , I am giving why Gripen is better than LCA . Should have checked 2 pages back , i wrote same things and many times before as well . 

Its not only me but almost all defence experts whether 
Vishnu Som , 
Shiv Aroor or 
even IAF pilots 
are of that opinion , everyone supports Gripen .
Every month almost 10 magazines cover MRCA issue - Try and go thru what everyone says .


Why does IAF which was ready to axe Rafale in first stage , gave Gripen a month extra and second chance .
Why was Eurocopter dis-qualified and Gripen not for sending C,D version
Who cleared LEH trials easily .

I am very straight-forward by my logic and analysis , i seldom depart from my straight one line thinking . 
If any LCA fan gets hurt and labels me MAstan Khan it dosent bothers me 
Thanks


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## Dash

INDIAISM said:


> iaf will retire around 200 mig 21 till 2011 and after that we will have 121 mig 21(my suggestion don't follow wikipedia blindly)and as far as nuclear capability of jags r concern.........we will have around 270 su 30mki and all of them can carry nuclear bombs...................and don't 4 get even rafale can carry nuclear bomb{if we go for it}+ we will get around 18 pakfa by 2020..we will have around 410 fighter which r capable enough to carry nuclear bombs.........how much more do u want...........now comming back to the topic i think we can replace mig 27 fleet and mig 21 fleet with lca tejas


My apologies, wasnt aware of the actual numbers.
However I was coming from a different conversation where i said LCA project will be successful and nothing can stop it. 

The more the number the better is, i am happy that it will have better chances of survival.

As per Mig 27 and Mig 21 being replaced by LCA, I will agree.


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## Dash

> Hehe, actually you gave the best example how foreign arms gave problems to indigenous developments!
> Now compare that with LCA and MMRCA, 99 + 49 optional engines for MK2 are under evaluation, but MMRCA is for 126 + 64 optional, already less than LCA. If IAF/MoD wants to order more fighters and they could produce more LCAs, or licence produce more foreign fighters, exactly the same choice IA had with Arjun and T90



Sancho - Do you really think T-90 Killed Arjun???, we need to dig the past and the the then scenario to understand who killed whom. I will not counter-argue with this as this will go off topic.
ok... one thing you cant deny that Arjun has not lost the battle, As i dont see in future IA is going for a foreign tank. That will be all indegenous. I will not go about the "speculated" FMBT project with Russia and simply believe that DRDO will do much better in MK2 and who knows may be their own FMBT may arrive sonner than Indo Russian one...ok...lets drop it here.



> And how important ToT is for MoD should be obvious by the fact that they asked for unusual much ToT in the MMRCA competition. Also see how important ToT was in the MKI deal, do you think without ToT from Russia we would be able to produce nearly all parts of the MKI in India now? That was important because we learned from the problems with sanctions and spare supply from foreign nations in the past.



OK fine we got the TOT and TOT is important, but can we say just because we got the TOT for Su30 MKI, Can we make another MKI of our own???...I am sure you understand the difference.

Iam sure we all know what it TOT and what is transfer of reasearch blue prints...large difference. Regardless of how many MMRCA you get, that TOT will just be an value adder than actual foundation to build a new plane.


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## KEETARP

Dash , no use . 
Believe me many believe that IA is useless , corrupt and runs behind foreign arms .Officers are only interested in money-making. I have seen many statements here 
While DRDO is full of saint who haven't done a single mistake and have always given superior tech without any delay .
IA is killing DRDO ,Arjun , Yes , and IA wants India doomed


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## sancho

Now you really surprise me, because you don't see it with a unbiased point of view anymore!



LT.PRATEEK said:


> That is not true , why compare with old specs ,NG is fully complete and tested .
> If you missed the news a NG with full and final specs + with all weapon integration flew to India. All the data is available with IAF who not only hold the brochure but have flown Gripen-NG themselves sitting in the forward seat .
> leave LCA mark2 which hasn't left drawing board , even LCA-1 has not fired a single guided missile or bomb .
> You believe that in time LCA2 comes , SAAB officials would be sitting in their office resting and not planning Gripen- NNGG



As I said in my that post, I took those specs because their are available for both fighters and more over for us! IAF should have more details on LCA MK2 too, but we don't have it, so for a comparison we can only take the specs of LCA MK1 and Gripen C/D.

Most of the comments you made are wrong, because you compare LCA MK1 with the specs of Gripen NG, which doesn't make sense. 




LT.PRATEEK said:


> Then Rafale and Eurofighter come with disadvantage of their own
> 
> *Supercruise* - we are talking off armed boggie and not clean one
> *Flight hour cost* - Does any one of the has less than $3000
> *Hot refuel *- Any one them offers such thing ,
> *Performance at high altitude like LEH , how many failed *
> *Lower Fly away cost and lower operational life-time cost - Can any of others match Gripen ???*
> *How many double engined fighters and high operational cost you need , I would rather prefer a fighter that can take off from Torn air-fields or Roads , can Hot refuel and always provides a economical option .*



Of course, every fighter has its pros and cons and I always pointed out them too, so the best choice is the one with the most advantages and the least disadvantages. But the point here was, that they offer a clear difference in performance over a similar gen LCA, which Gripen NG will not. 
Btw nobody had failed in LEH, all that was reported was that 5 fighters had to be modificated to do the trials, but they still did the trials tight?
Honestly I don't want too many twin engine fighters too (at least they are not indigenous engines). I would replace several of the Jaguars with Rafales too, because they are simply not useful and too limited in capabilities anymore. It would be better to increase the number of LCA MK2 to 200 and add 126-150 Rafales, IAF would be more capapable and could get more commonality on weapons and techs too.



LT.PRATEEK said:


> For most of tech LCA is not dependent on MRCA , we have diff JV for tht
> SNMECA,- for engine whether Rafale looses or not
> EADS - for consultation whether Eurofighter wins or not
> Israel for EW suite - whetehr India picks EL2052 or not
> AESA tech - JV to be decided , can be NIIR/ELTA/Selex any one .
> Engine- GE or EJ2000 irrespective of F18/Eurofighter
> Avionics/IRST /Datalinks from BEL



I didn't said that LCA is dependent on MRCA for techs, but similar techs gives commonality and less costs, so if we can team up with Rafale, or EF vendors we could make LCA more advanced and get more commonality too, not to forget that these ToT would be useful for a future MCA development too. 



LT.PRATEEK said:


> I now ask what does Eurofighter offer us for LCAmk2 .



EJ 200 engine including ToT, if we fund it even with TVC, 
Swashplate AESA radar is developed from EF members and they could be a development partner for us, IRST, all kind of MBDA weapons and so on and although i don't understand it, it seems like thy will be the partner for N-LCA too.



LT.PRATEEK said:


> Why does IAF which was ready to axe Rafale in first stage , gave Gripen a month extra and second chance .
> Why was Eurocopter dis-qualified and Gripen not for sending C,D version



Come on man, now you are going over board with baseless points! Eurocopter was never disqualified, the Fennec even won the competition and only because Bell protested, it was cancelled and re-issued. This has nothing to do with MMRCA at all



LT.PRATEEK said:


> I am very straight-forward by my logic and analysis , i seldom depart from my straight one line thinking .
> If any LCA fan gets hurt and labels me MAstan Khan it dosent bothers me
> Thanks



I have no problem with you point of view, but be fair and compare the specs I provided from similar versions of LCA and Gripen, otherwise it makes no sense.


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## Dash

LT.PRATEEK said:


> Dash , no use .
> Believe me many believe that IA is useless , corrupt and runs behind foreign arms .Officers are only interested in money-making. I have seen many statements here
> While DRDO is full of saint who haven't done a single mistake and have always given superior tech without any delay .
> IA is killing DRDO ,Arjun , Yes , and IA wants India doomed


Prateek -

We are all here fighting our words out in support of LCA and MRCA. But you sound frustrated. Sancho and Gogbot are just apprehending that once Gripen comes it will kill LCA program. Which is correct in its own way. I mean thats fine, what I am trying to convince them that it doesnt.



> For most of tech LCA is not dependent on MRCA , we have diff JV for tht
> SNMECA,- for engine whether Rafale looses or not
> EADS - for consultation whether Eurofighter wins or not
> Israel for EW suite - whetehr India picks EL2052 or not
> AESA tech - JV to be decided , can be NIIR/ELTA/Selex any one .
> Engine- GE or EJ2000 irrespective of F18/Eurofighter
> Avionics/IRST /Datalinks from BEL



I already echoed this earlier.




> I now ask what does Eurofighter offer us for LCAmk2 .
> 
> This is the 3 or 4th time , I am giving why Gripen is better than LCA . Should have checked 2 pages back , i wrote same things and many times before as well .
> 
> Its not only me but almost all defence experts whether
> Vishnu Som ,
> Shiv Aroor or
> even IAF pilots
> are of that opinion , everyone supports Gripen .
> Every month almost 10 magazines cover MRCA issue - Try and go thru what everyone says .



I will agree to this point, but here comes my openion.

1. Gripen is better than LCA now, but LCA can reach where Gripen is now in some time, say 5 years, 2017. You will get Gripen NG after a year say 2018.
Now please tell me if LCA cant be made as good as Gripen in that time...

2. Gripen supercruises, but is it with full weapons load?.not just with A2A missiles..
3. If gripen can supercruise at Mach 1.1 with Ge F141 engine, then LCA can supercruise?
4. The above points like hot fuelling, taking off from torn off runaways are actually essential in case of war. However in war, what superiority it can bring over our advesaries who are fielding F-16 block 52 and J-10 muscles.

I am saying in case of war, what advantages it can have, if it were to sent as a strike/bomber/air defense (considering its a multirole aircraft) aircraft with full weapons load against these fighters. Please dont tell me just AESA will do...

I* am asking these questions, because I am sure IAF will also see what kind of threat they will have in case of war and how their machines will turn out to be superrior.* as I think this is a decisive point in case of a war.

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## sancho

Dash said:


> Sancho - Do you really think T-90 Killed Arjun???,
> How else do you explain that we buy nearly 6 times less numbers of the more capable MBT? You can reply with PM too if you want.
> 
> 
> 
> OK fine we got the TOT and TOT is important, but can we say just because we got the TOT for Su30 MKI, Can we make another MKI of our own???...I am sure you understand the difference.
> 
> Iam sure we all know what it TOT and what is transfer of reasearch blue prints...large difference. Regardless of how many MMRCA you get, that TOT will just be an value adder than actual foundation to build a new plane.



The aim was not to make another MKI, but to have reliable supply lines, not to mention that it helped our developments too with know how and just like that we would benefit from MMRCA ToT too.
For example, we had problems with MMR and Kaveri engine, so if we get ToT of latest engines, or AESA radars, it will be easier for us to improve, or develop such things for MCA in future alone right?

P.S.



Dash said:


> I am saying in case of war, what advantages it can have, if it were to sent as a strike/bomber/air defense (considering its a multirole aircraft) aircraft with full weapons load against these fighters. Please dont tell me just AESA will do...
> 
> I am asking these questions, because I am sure IAF will also see what kind of threat they will have in case of war and how their machines will turn out to be superrior. as I think this is a decisive point in case of a war.



And that is what I said meant too! Of course the Rafale will be costlier than Gripen NG, but during war times it offers way more advantages for IAF and IN, than a Gripen NG, or LCA MK 2 could offer.

Points like up to 12 weapon stations + 2 for pods, 9.5t payload, CFTs if we want, the best passive detection capabilities, sanction proofness and a proven and ready platform that offers no risks of delays are unmatchable from other competitiors.


----------



## KEETARP

> Most of the comments you made are wrong, because you compare LCA MK1 with the specs of Gripen NG, which doesn't make sense



Why should we not , 
why compare old Gripen when the one competing in tender is NG , if anyone will see servive in IAF will be Ng nor C,D 
Everyone knows Gripen NG has flown with AESA , its not SAAB's fault that LCA lacks this .



> Honestly I don't want too many twin engine fighters too


And in next line you give your verdict in favour of Rafale .
You want common engine , why not F114 , why it has to be Snmeca or Ej2000 only .



> we can team up with Rafale, or EF vendors we could make LCA more advanced


There is nothing Rafale , 
you sign agreement with Dassault , MBDA , Thales , EADS , US companies in RAFALE and Eurofighter separately . There is no single and easy way out . How much ToT these companies offer we have seen through decades . 
There are no water-seal agreements , if EADS decides to provide wrong tools .
dosen't it matter another Hawk incident happens or not .
No one will offer Full ToT , dosent matter what they say in Press . Why would they give decades of research to a country . 



> EJ 200 engine including ToT, if we fund it even with TVC,


They have offered EJ2000 ToT without MRCA as well. 



> MBDA weapons


If you missed MBDA chief interview , he said we gain from MRCA if any of three European Jets win . 



> Swashplate AESA radar


Same comes with Gripen , 
if we want to be partner for LCA2 , ink a separate deal . Exactly for which LRDE is working now.


> Come on man, now you are going over board with baseless points! Eurocopter was never disqualified, the Fennec even won the competition and only because Bell protested, it was cancelled and re-issued.



The previous contract was cancelled by the ministry after it found that the chopper offered by Eurocopter for the field trials at that time *was a civilian version* whereas the company had *offered a military version* for the deal in its bid

why then Gripenc,d was allowed when offered was one was Ng .



> baseless points


Not , baseless . Better read that article once again why Tender was cancelled.

For the last time - LCA rise and Fall is not dependent on Gripen . It will depend on Merit of LCA itself


----------



## KEETARP

> 1. Gripen is better than LCA now, but LCA *can reach* where Gripen is now in some time, say 5 years, 2017. You will get Gripen NG after a year say 2018.



See the words , can reach . 
How come we are sure LCA2 will be = Gripen NG , any parameter to justify that 
I would say MCA better than everything else , buy Gripen rt now and by 2022 MCA = PakFa and better than Rafale , sounds stupid but same is your argument 



> 3. If gripen can supercruise at Mach 1.1 with Ge F141 engine, then LCA can supercruise?



You have to redesign-intakes and FCS for that , there are Supercruise Trim-Drag penality for any loaded design . Not necessary ADA will change design or intakes . Next at supersonic flights your air-flow computers will demand certain angle or control and FCS system will demand another position . Means upgrade ur FCS or change intakes .



> Gripen supercruises, but is it with full weapons load?.not just with A2A missiles..


Gripen supercruises with A2A missiles , 
tell me does another jet cruises without using afterburner in in non-clean load.



> However in war, what superiority it can bring over our advesaries who are fielding F-16 block 52 and J-10 muscles


Are u saying Gripen is inferior to J10 or block52 



> I am saying in case of war, what advantages it can have, if it were to sent as a strike/bomber/air defense (considering its a multirole aircraft) aircraft with full weapons load against these fighters. Please dont tell me just AESA will do...
> I am asking these questions, because I am sure IAF will also see what kind of threat they will have in case of war and how their machines will turn out to be superrior. as I think this is a decisive point in case of a war.



Advantages many -
Netcentric Fighter

Smallest and least RCS 

Supercruise 

Superior Sensor Fusion, with better situational awareness 

First to know - first to act - A combination of low radar, IR and visual signatures, along with a AESA radar, an Infra Red Search and Track (IRST) sensor and superior sensor fusion, including leading new generation weapons integration, ensure a high hit ratio in any engagement.
F16 bl52 dosent have an IRST nor does J10a 

Outstanding Agility- great T/W ratio compared to Bl52 
HMD with high-off bore sight capability to fire Python5 or ASRAAM , does J10 have better missile than Python5

High Operational Tempo and readiness 

Affordability - For every three Eurofighter , I can field 3 Gripens . 
I am in better position to win war and prevent falling nos 



> I am asking these questions, because I am sure IAF will also see what kind of threat they will have in case of war and how their machines will turn out to be superrior. as I think this is a decisive point in case of a war



What do you think IAF is doing , they are looking for exactly same things . We are out to get best Fighter that suit our needs and economy , not the best flying thing out there .
If you can defeat an enemy with 60mill why use 100mill for same thing .


----------



## sancho

LT.PRATEEK said:


> Why should we not ,
> why compare old Gripen when the one competing in tender is NG , if anyone will see servive in IAF will be Ng nor C,D
> Everyone knows Gripen NG has flown with AESA , its not SAAB's fault that LCA lacks this .



Because it doesn't makes sense to compare a 4. gen fighter with a 4.5 gen fighter, is is obvious that the NG is better than the LCA MK1, just like the Mig 35 is better than the Mig 29SMT IAF will have soon. But if you compare 4. gen LCA Mk1 wit 4. gen Gripen C/D you clearly see that they don't have much difference and same could be for LCA MK2 and Gripen NG, because LCA is similar and has the potential. 



LT.PRATEEK said:


> And in next line you give your verdict in favour of Rafale .
> You want common engine , why not F114 , why it has to be Snmeca or Ej2000 only .



Because EJ 200 is the better engine and needs less changes for LCA, also I want Kaveri-Snecma, because it is an indigenous engine and I want to see it ready and flying in a fighter after all these developments and Rafale is the only option at the moment.



LT.PRATEEK said:


> Why would they give decades of research to a country .


Simple answer, to make money through exports! Be it Dassault, the EF consortium, or Saab, they all needs export now than ever before, because the crisis hit them very strong and besides France, all countries reduces their initial orders. Don't forget that this is the biggest fighter deal of the decade and the Eurocanards are more expensive than their US counterparts, that's why they offer more ToT, or source codes to seal this deal.



LT.PRATEEK said:


> Same comes with Gripen ,
> if we want to be partner for LCA2 , ink a separate deal . Exactly for which LRDE is working now.



How? Sweden is just a customer, not a co-developer of that radar, so how can we team up with them? The Gripen NG is also customer of the GE 414 engine, can we team up with them on basis of that engine too?



LT.PRATEEK said:


> The previous contract was cancelled by the ministry after it found that the chopper offered by Eurocopter for the field trials at that time was a civilian version whereas the company had offered a military version for the deal in its bid
> 
> Not , baseless . Better read that article once again why Tender was cancelled.



Check this if you don't believe me:



> *Bell quits IAF's light utility chopper bids
> 
> New Delhi, Nov 13 *...
> 
> ...The decision of Bell comes within a month of it exiting the attack helicopter bids citing problems with procurement procedure.
> 
> India had issued the request for proposals (RFP) for the 197 LUHs this July.
> Bell claimed the Indian Defence Ministry had put down clauses under which the original equipment manufacturer winning the contract was bound to plough back 50 per cent of the deal amount to India as offsets, which was hard for them to comply with.
> 
> *In fact, India was forced to issue a fresh tender for its LUH requirements, after cancelling the original RFP in December last following objections raised by Bell over rejection of its bids in favour of French major Eurocopter's AS-355 'Fennec'.*
> 
> Bell and Eurocopter were the two final contenders and *India had decided to put its weight with 'Fennec' after technical evaluation.
> *
> The US company had contended that India had unjustifiably rejected its bid and had not given it a fair chance to participate in the technical trials of their product, Bell-407 'Shen'. As it was at the Bell's insistence that India re-tendered for the LUH, the decision of the US company to withdraw from the bid was received with surprise by the Defence Ministry, sources said.





LT.PRATEEK said:


> why then Gripenc,d was allowed when offered was one was Ng .



Because it makes no difference in the weapon trials, Gripen NG has no new weapons that the C/D didn't have integrated yet. That trial was mainly about the weapons, not about the flight performance. Btw, a German EF made the flight trials in India, but it will be a more capable British EF that will be fielded in the weapon trials.


----------



## KEETARP

This is article posted in this forum only - 
http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-...mn-global-tender-buy-choppers.html#post405179



> Paris (PTI): India is planning to carry out field trials for procuring 197 Light Utility Helicopters (LUH) for the Army and the Air Force in August this year.
> 
> "We are planning to carry out the flight evaluation trials for the 197 LUH contract in August this year but the schedule has not yet been finalised. Five vendors are expected to come up with their helicopters for the competition," Indian Defence Ministry officials told PTI here.
> 
> The five contenders participating in the contract include the Russian Kazan and Mil, American Sikorsky, Italian Finnmeccanica and European helicopter manufacturers Eurocopter.
> 
> The contract, expected to be worth around $3 billion, is one of the few defence contracts where the vendors are required to fulfill around 50 per cent offset obligations.
> 
> The offsets clause in the Defence Procurement Procedures makes it mandatory for the companies awarded such deals to invest a certain percentage of the contract's worth back in the Indian defence sector.
> 
> In March this year, all the five companies responded to the global Request for Proposal (RFP) issued by the Defence Ministry last year.
> 
> The RFP was sent to six companies, including American Bell Helicopters, but it had backed out of the race citing the high offset obligations required in the contract.
> 
> The RFP was released by the Defence Ministry after it had cancelled a previous contract in December 2007 for similar type and number of helicopters.
> 
> *The previous contract was cancelled by the ministry after it found that the chopper offered by Eurocopter for the field trials at that time was a civilian version whereas the company had offered a military version for the deal in its bid. *
> 
> The chopper engine offered in the Eurocopter's bid was also different from the one fitted in the civilian version, which participated in the trials.
> 
> "We would be sending a military version of the helicopter for the field trials for the contract," Eurocopter vice-president Rainer Farid told PTI during the Paris Air Show.





> Because EJ 200 is the better engine and needs less changes for LCA


How come Ej2000 is better , 
Better thrust 
Better Fuel consumption 
Less maintenance what ????
Why EJ2000 will not require any changes ,
is it exactly same as F404IN . 
Same length ,
requires same flow of air 
Or just bcoz manufacturer says so 



> Swashplate AESA radar is developed from EF members and they could be a development partner for us,



Lame statement , LCA radar and MRCA are not linked at all . 
LRDE is looking for a development partner , since current MMR is based on ELTA better go with ELTA .
If there is too much reluctance of Vixen , sign a JV with Vixen . Why do you need MRCA for this . Not linked at all .



> Because it doesn't makes sense to compare a 4. gen fighter with a 4.5 gen fighter, is is obvious that the NG is better than the LCA MK1, just like the Mig 35 is better than the Mig 29SMT IAF will have soon. But if you compare 4. gen LCA Mk1 wit 4. gen Gripen C/D you clearly see that they don't have much difference and same could be for LCA MK2 and Gripen NG, because LCA is similar and has the potential



Does it make sense , then if u start comparing F16block2 vs LCA and start saying Lca better than F16 . And when someone counters you taking block52/60 , u simply backout saying LCA will get better in future . 
Why then you started this comparison knowing current Gripen is 4.5 Gen and better . 



> That trial was mainly about the weapons, not about the flight performance. Btw, a German EF made the flight trials in India, *but it will be* a more capable British EF that will be fielded in the weapon trials



Trial is already over , don't believe me this is today's news-



> In the run-up to the trials, the shortlisted IAF test pilots and engineers had undergone extensive training in Germany.
> 
> "The final phase of flight trials were conducted in Europe to test the fighter's cutting edge weapons systems and advanced sensors. The exercises included dropping precision guided munitions and launching air-to-air and air-to-ground missiles," Casolini added.
> *Eurofighter used two Typhoons of the German Air Force's squadron 73, which is based at Laage in northern Germany*.


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## Basha_Trichy

HAI TO ALL ,This is my first posting on this forum.

A happy news for euro fighter lovers,

European fighters become 25% cheaper

The six contenders for the MMRCA contract  US companies Boeing and Lockheed Martin, Russian company MiG and European companies Dassault, Eurofighter and Gripen  will submit fresh price bids this month to Indias Ministry of Defence (MoD) since their earlier bids, submitted in March 2008, were valid for just two years.
At that time, the euro was worth more than $1.55; today, it has dropped below 1.2 to the dollar, almost 25 per cent cheaper in relative terms. The Swedish krona has fallen as precipitously: worth $0.165 in March 2008, the krona is at $0.126 now.

That means that a bid, calculated in euros as the equivalent of $11 billion in 2008, would be just $8-8.5 billion today, cheaper by as much as $3 billion, or Rs 13,200 crore.

Taking note of this, Enzio Casolini, the CEO of Eurofighter GmbH, the four-nation consortium that manufactures the Eurofighter, told Business Standard, This (the drop in the euro) is important, especially in relation to the American competitors. In comparison with the dollar, we went down from more or less 1.5 (dollars to the euro) to 1.2. So, this is good

Says Bernhard Gerwert, Board Chairman of Eurofighter GmbH, When we launched Eurofighters campaign in India in 2007, I thought we had only a 10 per cent chance of winning the contract. Today, I believe we have a better than 50 per cent chance of winning.

Sorry iam unable to post the link for the source,but the article is in business standard website


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## Dash

> See the words , can reach .
> How come we are sure LCA2 will be = Gripen NG , any parameter to justify that
> I would say MCA better than everything else , buy Gripen rt now and by 2022 MCA = PakFa and better than Rafale , sounds stupid but same is your argument


My argument wasnt there to justify LCA2's readiness with compared to Gripen NG, i will not compare LCA1 to Gripen NG. My whole point is based on possibility and its the only thing Iam banking on now. 

If someone tells me there is a possibility LAC2 becoming F16 block 60(single engine fighter) or Typhoon or Rafale then I will clearly say there is no "possibility". but here I see a possibility and I see the possibility coming true so I will say LCA2 can be made equivallent to Gripen, coz I support aggresive indegeneous expansions. term it as over optimism or may be sounds stupid.

But will you completely deny the factor that LCA2 cant reach where Gripen is in 5-7 years?, Say No....



> You have to redesign-intakes and FCS for that , there are Supercruise Trim-Drag penality for any loaded design . Not necessary ADA will change design or intakes . Next at supersonic flights your air-flow computers will demand certain angle or control and FCS system will demand another position . Means upgrade ur FCS or change intakes



There is already a need to redesign the inlets coz anyway you have to incorporate a higher thurst engine demanding higher air flow. But if you design it to be supersonic you have to keep the inflow at subsonic. But Can you say it cant be done?



> Gripen supercruises with A2A missiles ,
> tell me does another jet cruises without using afterburner in in non-clean load.



See if we dig the records even Eurofighter is said to have supercruised at mach 1.3 and so Rafale. Some say even full weapons load. I am no "Expert" to prove myself true but I have read from experts.



> Are u saying Gripen is inferior to J10 or block52



I never said its inferior, i will always say everything we have in MRCA is superiror. However whats the Level of superiority was the question.which you answered in later post.




> Smallest and least RCS



Doesnt mean anything, we should send Bisons then, ohh even LCA.



> Smallest and least RCS



tell me whats the meaning of supercruise for such small distances, I mean considering the distance we have to cover for our adversaries. and If they come to our land to fight a war, I dont see much value add by superscruise, unless you want to bomb Antarctica...



> Superior Sensor Fusion, with better situational awareness
> 
> First to know - first to act - A combination of low radar, IR and visual signatures, along with a AESA radar, an Infra Red Search and Track (IRST) sensor and superior sensor fusion, including leading new generation weapons integration, ensure a high hit ratio in any engagement.
> F16 bl52 dosent have an IRST nor does J10a
> 
> Outstanding Agility- great T/W ratio compared to Bl52
> HMD with high-off bore sight capability to fire Python5 or ASRAAM , does J10 have better missile than Python5
> 
> High Operational Tempo and readiness



All these are good. Agree...



> Affordability - For every three Eurofighter , I can field 3 Gripens .
> I am in better position to win war and prevent falling nos



Excellent point and even I have highlighted this earlier. to add to your point that it can bridge the gap of falling "Numbers" easily...at least in IAF squadrons..


And by the way, its selex galileo that has provided Skywards G IRST for Gripen. The same company which has given PIRATE to Typhoon. I searched net but didnt find the IRST SKYWARDs broucher. 

Do you have any aricle that gives its technicality?


----------



## Basha_Trichy

My first post is a sweet news not only for euro fighter lovers, but also for Gripen lovers,and for our nation too.if any European fighter choosen it will be an additional advantage.


----------



## SpArK

European fighters become 25% cheaper


the article the trichy guy was referring to.

Reactions: Like Like:
2


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## Dash

> The aim was not to make another MKI, but to have reliable supply lines, not to mention that it helped our developments too with know how and just like that we would benefit from MMRCA ToT too.
> For example, we had problems with MMR and Kaveri engine, so if we get ToT of latest engines, or AESA radars, it will be easier for us to improve, or develop such things for MCA in future alone right?



Sancho. Bro please stop linking LCA, MCA with MRCA, if the TOT is assembaling engine lines for MKI and having self reliant on parts, then thats of no use and it wont help anyway. You are contradicting your own statements here.

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## KEETARP

> Doesnt mean anything, we should send Bisons then, ohh even LCA.



It does mean , why is MKI easy to spot on radar for USAF than Mig21 .
*Does Bisons or LCA have been certified rcs of 0.1 in clean config* . 



You want to win air-battle take a plane with 
Agility 
lowest RCS . 
Better missile 
You will win more engagements 
Thats what Gripen offers in half-price . 



> tell me whats the meaning of supercruise for such small distances, I mean considering the distance we have to cover for our adversaries. and If they come to our land to fight a war, I dont see much value add by superscruise, unless you want to bomb Antarctica...



Gripen - 
Combat radius: 800 km (500 mi, 432 nmi)
Ferry range: 3,200 km (2,000 mi) with Drop Tanks 

Mig35-
Ferry range: 2,000 km (1,240 mi) / 3,000 km (1,860 mi) with 3 drop tanks

Want more , use force multiplier . How much area of enemy are we covering now ? ? ? 
In case of war - where first engagement will occur , on Pak-Afg border or Pak-Ind border , and in that case a fighter with super-cruise has better Kinematic output to win battle. 
If you didn't notice Super-cruise is giving you advantage of saving Afterburner fuel .



> I dont see much value add by superscruise, unless you want to bomb Antarctica...


What was that 
Want even more to reach Europe use Su-30

Reactions: Like Like:
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## KEETARP

self-delete , Repost


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## najamkhan

Sorry guys.........gotta a question for you guys?

What is the best website for sending gifts to Pakistan??

i have tried pakgiftz and tohfey but are unrealiable.........how is this website 

Send Gift To Pakistan - Flowers, Cakes, Chocolates, Birthday, Anniversary, Valentine 

anyone ?? My friend swears by them....but me not too sure!


----------



## kashith

najamkhan said:


> Sorry guys.........gotta a question for you guys?
> 
> What is the best website for sending gifts to Pakistan??
> 
> i have tried pakgiftz and tohfey but are unrealiable.........how is this website
> 
> Send Gift To Pakistan - Flowers, Cakes, Chocolates, Birthday, Anniversary, Valentine
> 
> anyone ?? My friend swears by them....but me not too sure!



why are you spamming the forum?


----------



## SpArK

MEDITERRANEAN SEA (June 4, 2010) A French navy Rafale F-3 fighter aircraft launches from the Nimitz-class aircraft carrier USS Harry S. Truman (CVN 75). Harry S. Truman is deployed as part of the Harry S. Truman Carrier Strike Group supporting maritime security operations and theater security cooperation efforts in the U.S. 5th and 6th Fleet areas of responsibility. (U.S. Navy photo by Ensign Dusan Ilic)


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## KS

LT.PRATEEK said:


> You want to win air-battle take a plane with
> Agility
> lowest RCS .
> Better missile
> You will win more engagements
> Thats what Gripen offers in half-price .



Prateek we have enuff planes in IAF for air battles (MKI,Fulcrums,LCA,Bisons and in future PAKFA)---

*What we need now is a genuine multirole strike aircraft with excellent A2G capabilities and a good A2A capability.*

And i think the SH and Rafale satisfy these conditions better than Gripen.

And also by buying Rafale we can deny the Pakistanis avionics for their JF-17s and other contracts if we use it skilfully.

Buying a gripen offers none of these.

And as regards supercruise it is not of as much use in Indo-Pak scenario as it is made out to be.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## shaktiman2010

Dash said:


> Sancho. Bro please stop linking LCA, MCA with MRCA, if the TOT is assembaling engine lines for MKI and having self reliant on parts, then thats of no use and it wont help anyway. You are contradicting your own statements here.



Agreed.

A lot of people don't understand this. ToT gives you nothing in terms of fundamental research and knowledge behind the designs.

In ToT, you get that particular blueprint but nothing more than that. The fundamental science behind it comes to you only when you do it yourself.

Also, noone is a fool to sell you that research for just $10 Billion. When USA forced Russia not to transfer cryogenic technology to India in 1990's then, only a stupid and naive person will think that US company will be transferring same to India.

There is no shortage of naive western puppets in India. They actually believe in whatever Obama says. LOL!


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## shaktiman2010

Karthic Sri said:


> And also by buying Rafale we can deny the Pakistanis avionics for their JF-17s and other contracts if we use it skilfully.
> 
> Buying a gripen offers none of these.



LOL.

You sound naive.

Buying an F-16 won't stop USA from selling or upgrading F-16 to Pakistan. Same is true with every other seller(except Russia).

You don't understand how Westerners think. Do you?

Indians are quite gullible. Most of them reason like you do and that's why they never understood till today that USA was full supporter of Pakistan's nuclear programme since early 1980's and same policy exists today irrespective of what surrender India offers to USA.

Problem is that, Indians sell themselves too cheap in the game. India has much better and bigger "leverages" in the game, than they are aware of.

As a small example, Indian domestic aircraft industry has crossed the critical phase and its now much closer to capability of making F-18's class of fighters on their own.

But key here is, "self-confidence" which Indians lack. They still prefer being a lapdog of West and wanna do this or that(buying RAfales) just to "please" others. How far Indians are ready to surrender? Tomorrow, if Sweden threatened to sell full-capable Gripen to Pakistan, will you start buying Gripen too? LOL!

That's not how it works, dear.

For a change, start thinking for yourself.


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## Sri

My understanding is super cruise is only possible in clean layout( i.e. no external weapons/fuel tanks) by both Gripen NG and Euro carnards.
pl let me know if this is possible by a clean Rafale


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## flanker143

Hello guy i'm new on this forum 
Itz really gud tu hear that ef2000 is gonna be cheaper , as it is da best (in air to air capabilities in curent form ) of da other mmrca jet , my second choice wud be mig 35.


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## shaktiman2010

Gripen is much better choice though I still prefer that IAF cut the order into half and fund the domestic R&D with rest of money.

10billion$ for imports, is waste of money. Some of it should be diverted to domestic R&D on future technologies in MCA.

Just check how much USAF spends on domestic technology R&D in American universities. It runs into Billions of $. 

And how much technological research IAF funds in India? Zero. Because IAF has zero-size brains. They never plan for future and always end up "importing" forever.


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## flanker143

> My understanding is super cruise is only possible in clean layout( i.e. no external weapons/fuel tanks) by both Gripen NG and Euro carnards.
> pl let me know if this is possible by a clean Rafale



i read on net on a gud site sayin dat raf hav said dat supercruise is possible in ef2k with combat load , sry cant pull u da link right now but i read it on a reputed one !


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## flanker143

> Gripen is much better choice though I still prefer that IAF cut the order into half and fund the domestic R&D with rest of money.
> 
> 10billion$ for imports, is waste of money. Some of it should be diverted to domestic R&D on future technologies in MCA.
> 
> Just check how much USAF spends on domestic technology R&D in American universities. It runs into Billions of $.
> 
> And how much technological research IAF funds in India? Zero. Because IAF has zero-size brains. They never plan for future and always end up "importing" forever.



such a behaviour is logical and usa domestic markets hav been producing gud jets for decades , tejas is india's 2nd fighter jet dat has been in dev for ALOT of time dats why !


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## flanker143

although tejas has been under dev for a lot of time but stil it has come out to be gud jet (tejas mk1) and also tejas mk2 will be ready till mk1 gets produced in 3-4 years, an its gonna hav an aesa an many more advancements, 

hey guys is it confirmed dat france and india are dev a m88 kaveri hybrid with 100kn thrust ?? plzz tell.


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## Dash

> Gripen -
> Combat radius: 800 km (500 mi, 432 nmi)
> Ferry range: 3,200 km (2,000 mi) with Drop Tanks
> 
> Mig35-
> Ferry range: 2,000 km (1,240 mi) / 3,000 km (1,860 mi) with 3 drop tanks
> 
> Want more , use force multiplier . How much area of enemy are we covering now ? ? ?
> In case of war - where first engagement will occur , on Pak-Afg border or Pak-Ind border , and in that case a fighter with super-cruise has better Kinematic output to win battle.
> If you didn't notice Super-cruise is giving you advantage of saving Afterburner fuel .



Thanks Prateek - See our discussion is on two things. 
1. Why gripen is to be choosen?
2. Why LCA cant be made close to Gripen so that we can got for a better fighter than Gripen?....

You have already spokedn your point of view on Why Gripen will be choosen in MRCA, but not the secons one, as you are in a complete denial stage.



> Mig35-
> Ferry range: 2,000 km (1,240 mi) / 3,000 km (1,860 mi) with 3 drop tanks



Why compare it with Mig-35, if you think Gripen is good then compare it with F-16?, why fight F-16 with Gripen, better fight F-16 52 with F-16 block 60..makes sense??.. 

GE F110 engine.
145 Kn thurst with FADEC and confirmal fuel tank..
AN/APG 80 AESA - Battle proven RADAR than Selex Vixen RADAR?? which is just being tested?...at keast take time to integrate..
Combat radius - 550 KM
ferry Range - 4220 Km with drop tanks....They are saying they will improve the range too?..
11 Hard points with 7,700 Kgs of load - here is the BIG difference...
IRST, AMRAAM and everything......
Pythoon 4 or 5 may be.
Now here comes a point can you say Gripen is atleast in the same class of F-16, with all the gizmos and all. Its clearly not.

And if IAF refuses to go for F-16 for some reason then if they go for Gripen then they become inferior, according to this logic....

My own logic is if I can make LCA get close to Gripen. then I dont buy Gripen, LCA is even lower than Gripen in cost. 

What political advantages you will get when you buy Gripen - Nothing
In others case you will atleast get to know a different engine, but in this case you will get to see the same engine.

LCA airframe is going to change and intakes are going to be modified and by sometime say 5-6 years LCA will be there where Gripen is. i am sure i will see this day.

However we have spoken much on this. Gripen is not a bad fighter iam saying. What Iam saying I already have a replacement for that.


----------



## flanker143

i just dont know why ppl say dat lca is inferior to gripen , lca mk2 will be the main production jet(produced in most no.s) will come with aesa and a 100kn engine , i hv heard dat lca has a payload >4000kg but how much ???

plzz tell


----------



## sancho

LT.PRATEEK said:


> How come Ej2000 is better ,
> Better thrust
> Better Fuel consumption
> Less maintenance what ????
> Why EJ2000 will not require any changes ,
> is it exactly same as F404IN .
> Same length ,
> requires same flow of air
> Or just bcoz manufacturer says so



Lower diameter, 130Kg less weight, in the actual version 60/90kN thrust (in war setting up to 64/95kN thrust), the one offered for LCA should be based on the improved engine for EF tranche 3, which means between 95 and 100kN afterburner thrust and possibly 3D TVC, more ToT than the US engine offers and no airframe changes needed (yes, that is stated by EJ). 



LT.PRATEEK said:


> Lame statement



Lame statement, or a simple fact? If a co-development with Vixen 1000 will be offered, it will by offered by Selsex Galileo and not any Swedish company, that's why I said the Gripen NG can't offer us anything we would benefit from.



LT.PRATEEK said:


> Does it make sense , then if u start comparing F16block2 vs LCA and start saying Lca better than F16.



First of all I didn't said that! Secondly if you mean LCA MK1 and F16 block 52 it does make sense, because both fighters have simliar 4. gen capabilities



LT.PRATEEK said:


> Why then you started this comparison knowing current Gripen is 4.5 Gen and better .



I didn't! I purposly compared only MK1 and C/D, you brought up the NG. If you would think about it a bit more unbiased, you would see that gogbot and I have a point and how close LCA is to Gripen. 
Btw, you mentioned the low RCS of Gripen, but what about LCA? It is smaller, integrates nearly twice as much composite materials, has also an Y-duct and incorporates RAM materials too, so can you really say LCA will not be at a similar level in this field too?

Just take a look at my comparison again, without bringen NG, F16, or like in the post to Dash Mig 35 in. Compare only LCA MK1 and Gripen C/D and you will see that LCA is more than close.



P.S. regarding the weapon trials of EF, I'm cross checking the article in some German forums, because some things doesn't fit. German EFs have not integrated much A2G weapons yet, so it would be surprising if they used them. Also it is mentioned that A2G missiles was used and till now not a single A2G missile was integrated, so it would be interesting to see which one it was.


----------



## KEETARP

> Why LCA cant be made close to Gripen so that we can got for a better fighter than Gripen?..





> i just dont know why ppl say dat lca is inferior to gripen , lca mk2 will be the main production jet(produced in most no.s) will come with aesa and a 100kn engine , i hv heard dat lca has a payload >4000kg but how much ???
> plzz tell



And we return to same cycle , 
I echoed that point 10 times in my post , 
and atleast 5 times when day LCH flew and everyone was going - Its best , nothing can close etc etc . same case LCH/LCA vs others.

I for last time explain this point , LCA just like LCH is a fighter made according to IAF requirements that's it . It was and will be best replacement for Mig-21and role it performs . 
There is no point in comparing it to gripen , 
If IAF feels Gripen is best for MRCA ,it would simply order Gripen , and LCA will be inducted as per plan and numbers there is no threat to LCA.
Turn the cycle 5 years back and you would know the difference . Forget Gripen IAF was almost set to order 126 Mirage2000-5 , now tell me isnt LCA similar to Mirage ,would that have killed LCA . 
Air force of Pakistan or China would have modernized acc to their plans , and we wouldn't be sitting here saying buy Eurofighter . 

Why is Gripen better than LCA , cmon DASH i wrote such a long post back . U can only compare latest build vs latest build . 
Like F16bl52+/60 vs Mig29k/35
LCA-LSP/Mark1 vs Gripen NG , compare and see the difference . 
When you talk of 2015 and LCAmk2 why not talk about Gripen XL . Both are under development . If DRDO is working to improve LCA so are SAAB .
By the time you field AESA , SAAB would be fielding Ga-Ni based module .
By the time you get IRST , SAAB would be fielding dual-band long range IR passive sensor.
By the time you get RWR , saab would be fielding Active cancellation Ew suite . Why the hell discuss future here . Tech changes every minute 
Dont believe me 
See the patent filed by SAAB- 
(WO/2003/098739) STEALTH CRAFT

and one of concepts -








> Why compare it with Mig-35, if you think Gripen is good then compare it with F-16?, why fight F-16 with Gripen, better fight F-16 52 with F-16 block 60..makes sense??..



Compare it , I am ready . Lets have a shot .
*You may have more thrust but still T/W ratio of Gripen is better and will be more agile* . See which jet dominates 
*Better RCS*
*Better Missile* 
*Gripen can land and take-off from Roads/bombed airfield* .
Can land , hot refuel in i minute and be air-borne again . Each minute I am launching many more air-crafts . 
For Indian scenario , has more than enough fuel and Range to perform all functions and in toughest/Rough situation . 

Don't compare extra range and extra load etc . 
You always fight in formation , 
20 gripen+20 MKI against xyx , on every inch of order in quick time
Once i destroy XYZ , 
Gripen can keep bombing for months , its easy & cost effective 
I save hell lot of money for more simulators,Training for pilot's skill .

*In war these things count , exactly what IAF and MKI needs for compliment .
Exactly why Gripen is popular among PILOTS , IAF , Defence expert , Journos , Ex-retired pilots .
Do anything , you simply can't beat a Technological superior and robust design .

Why Brazil's air-force prefers Gripen , that is the first choice ahead of Rafale . Its a pitty Lula and sarkozy have planned for resort in Paris and rafale is going to win. On performance Gripen won in Brazil*


----------



## gogbot

LT.PRATEEK said:


> Believe me many believe that IA is useless , corrupt and runs behind foreign arms .Officers are only interested in money-making. I have seen many statements here
> While DRDO is full of saint who haven't done a single mistake and have always given superior tech without any delay .
> IA is killing DRDO ,Arjun , Yes , and IA wants India doomed



There are no absolutes.

It is undeniable that corruption was responsible for what happened with the tank , unless you want to tell me IA is so irresponsible that they ere blissfully unaware to the capabilities of their own tanks.

IA is not corrupt as whole , but there were undeniable elements within the armed forces that tried to undermine the Tank.

DRDO made the tank , and it arrived late. But DRDO did their job , but they were not to blame for the controversy that would follow.

If i am wrong, then please correct.

But you never respond to a single one of my posts , and then take my words in the absolute format.
e.g
When i say harm , it become kill .

Whys is every one looking at thing in such black and white terms.


----------



## Hindustan Fighter

I would also like to point out one of the most important advantages that Gripen offers over other competitors, they are offering integration of weapons of India's choice. Which means if I understand that we can have either of Indian, Russian, European and/ or American weapons on this fighter which will provide us the weapons versatility and also reduce cost due to commonality of weapons already available in IAF.


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## flanker143

lca is made acc to iaf's rquirement and it is a replacement for mig 21 , this fact does'nt mean prove that lca cant be compared to gripen , f22 is also made acc to usaf requiements and it is a replacement for f 15 , this does't mean it's justs like f 15 , same goes for lca (this is just an eg) 

f15 earlier was just an air superiority fighter but now its a multirolefighter bomber roles keep changing !!!!!!!


----------



## KEETARP

> the one offered for LCA should be based on the improved engine for EF tranche 3, which means between 95 and 100kN afterburner thrust and possibly 3D TVC, more ToT than the US engine offers and no airframe changes needed (yes, that is stated by EJ)



F414 - Maximum thrust: 22,000 lbf (98 kN)
Ej2000- (90Kn)

Should be , TVC is not developed . 
Why pay additionally for it , when Snmeca and Kaveri will be ready by time EJ2000 finishes 
Manufacturer's word and saying is when reality comes . 
EADS can offer Hawk , but does it provide in Reality transfer of all tools and know how of tech .
Simply manufacturing under licence dosen't count .



> If a co-development with Vixen 1000 will be offered, it will by offered by Selsex Galileo and not any Swedish company, that's why I said the Gripen NG can't offer us anything we would benefit from.



You have to ink a separate deal with Selex , simply buying Eurofighter from EADS dosen't gets you that . And you can tie up Selex eeven if you purchase Mig35 . No connection 
Tell me why you need Selex so badly - E/L is much more better IMO.



> Secondly if you mean LCA MK1 and F16 block 52 it does make sense, because both fighters have simliar 4. gen capabilities



Great , now you say Block52 = LCA , i rest my case , 



> Btw, you mentioned the low RCS of Gripen, but what about LCA? It is smaller, integrates nearly twice as much composite materials, has also an Y-duct and incorporates RAM materials too, so can you really say LCA will not be at a similar level in this field too?



Check out Sudhir's post on LCA thread esp the last 3 lines , See what RCS is mentioned there .



> Compare only LCA MK1 and Gripen C/D and you will see that LCA is more than close



Why compare in first place , and if so bent on it , 
why compare an old Gripen which has stopped production and will never come in IAF service .


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## KEETARP

Gog bot , 
you dig up old reports and see on what grounds Arjun was rejected in 2000 , and what was problem with Infrastructure that IA had for 3 decades . 

For rest of it ,
I am PM to Indian Army sir , he will explain much better .


----------



## sancho

Hindustan Fighter said:


> I would also like to point out one of the most important advantages that Gripen offers over other competitors, they are offering integration of weapons of India's choice. Which means if I understand that we can have either of Indian, Russian, European and/ or American weapons on this fighter which will provide us the weapons versatility and also reduce cost due to commonality of weapons already available in IAF.



That's correct that it can use different weapons, but that doesn't mean IAF will buy weapons from different origins. They will buy either European, or US missiles and if necessary they will use Russian missiles from our Mig 29, or Flankers too. The only other aircraft that offers weapon commonality (except the Mig 35 of course) to other fighters in IAF fleet is the Rafale. It can carry all weapons that the Mirage 2000s and Jaguars can use too, which reduces logistics too.
Personally I think if we go to any European fighter, IAF would also by only European A2A weapons and not US, because that would mean the addition of new weapons and logistics.


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## Hindustan Fighter

Yes Sancho you are right, but to my knowledge Mig 35 can only use russian weapons and Rafale can have french and other European weapons. But with Gripen we can not only have new European weapons but also can integrate weapons already available in IAF inventory i.e. Astra, Mica that will come with upgardes mirage 2000-5, Russian BVR already available with MKI and Migs. this can provide us flexibility and may have impact in war if crisis situation arises due to stock availability


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## sancho

LT.PRATEEK said:


> F414 - Maximum thrust: 22,000 lbf (98 kN)
> Ej2000- (90Kn)
> 
> Should be , TVC is not developed .
> Why pay additionally for it , when Snmeca and Kaveri will be ready by time EJ2000 finishes
> Manufacturer's word and saying is when reality comes .
> EADS can offer Hawk , but does it provide in Reality transfer of all tools and know how of tech .
> Simply manufacturing under licence dosen't count .


 
TVC was developed nearly decade ago and is tested in prototype versions, the EF didn't needed it yet, that's why they didn't integrated it, but that could change now with tranche 3. Kaveri-Snecma will not be used in LCA MK2, because MoD wants a ready and proven engine, especially on a single engine fighter where engine failours means loss of the fighter too.
Btw, I didn't said we must take TVC, I said it is offered with that option, the F414 does not.
Buddy, EADS is not the manufacturer of HAWK trainers, BAE is!




LT.PRATEEK said:


> You have to ink a separate deal with Selex , simply buying Eurofighter from EADS dosen't gets you that . And you can tie up Selex eeven if you purchase Mig35 . No connection
> Tell me why you need Selex so badly - E/L is much more better IMO.



Selsex with Mig 35? Sure, the latest European radar on a Russian fighter, nobody of them will agree to this! 
Also I never said we need Selsex, the Vixen 1000, RBE 2 AA and Zhuk AE are possible options and would give commonality, so reduced costs. Personally I think the 2052 would be good, but I have doubts that we would get it in full capabilities, because it contends US parts and they not allowed the sale to be used in Gripen NG for IAF before. That also could be the reason why MoD now wants a co-debelopment partner, Elta can still help is such a development, even without the US parts, but in this case Russians and Europeans will be options too. With this radar competition we can chose which partner offers the most.




LT.PRATEEK said:


> Great , now you say Block52 = LCA , i rest my case ,



LOL, don't put words in my mouth, I said they are the same 4th gen and that is not deniable!




LT.PRATEEK said:


> Check out Sudhir's post on LCA thread esp the last 3 lines , See what RCS is mentioned there .



Which one, link, number?




LT.PRATEEK said:


> Why compare in first place , and if so bent on it ,
> why compare an old Gripen which has stopped production and will never come in IAF service .



Once again, because we have the specs of MK 1 and C/D and not to speculate about MK2 specs that are not finalised yet. 
Gripen C/D can't do anything that the LCA MK1 can't and that is a fact, because both are so similar in design and capabilties. It still might have some slight advantages, but therefor the MK1 is nearly half as costly.
That's why I said, if you compare these 2 on a fair basis, you can't disagree that it is more than close to Gripen and that LCA has the potential to be a good 4.5 gen fighter too, even close to Gripen NG.


----------



## sancho

Hindustan Fighter said:


> Yes Sancho you are right, but to my knowledge Mig 35 can only use russian weapons and Rafale can have french and other European weapons. But with Gripen we can not only have new European weapons but also can integrate weapons already available in IAF inventory i.e. Astra, Mica that will come with upgardes mirage 2000-5, Russian BVR already available with MKI and Migs. this can provide us flexibility and may have impact in war if crisis situation arises due to stock availability



In generall every fighter can integrate more different missiles, also Indian missiles, it depends only on the funding to integrate them and if the vendor allows the integration. The Rafale is wired to use AMRAAM for example too and they have offered the integration of Brazilian weapons in their competition also, so it shouldn't be a problem for our weapons. Whereas I doubt that the Russian will allow us western weapons on their fighters, Indian weapons will be the maximum.
The best choices in the weapon field are Gripen NG and Rafale, because they add latest European weapons, but can use older weapons in IAF inventory too. The other western fighters will need US A2G weapons anyway and can't use older weapons of IAF fighters.


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## flanker143

does lca has open architechure ? , senior membors plz put some light!


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## KEETARP

> Which one, link, number?


Here it is ,
http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/4346-lca-news-discussions-167.html#post913839



> Selsex with Mig 35? Sure, the latest European radar on a Russian fighter, nobody of them will agree to this!
> Also I never said we need Selsex, the Vixen 1000, RBE 2 AA and Zhuk AE are possible options and would give commonality, so reduced costs. Personally I think the 2052 would be good, but I have doubts that we would get it in full capabilities, because it contends US parts and they not allowed the sale to be used in Gripen NG for IAF before. That also could be the reason why MoD now wants a co-debelopment partner, Elta can still help is such a development, even without the US parts, but in this case Russians and Europeans will be options too. With this radar competition we can chose which partner offers the most.



Don twist my post , read what i wrote . Don't jump on your own conclusion
Even if you buy Mig35 , with ZHuk-AE . 
If LRDE wants Vixen1000 for LCAmk2 , it can tie up with Selex 
and for that matter Elta/Zhuk anyone . 
Why are you mixing LCAmk2 with MRCA as if only MRCA will decide will decide which radar will go into LCA. 

This is what i wrote -
You have to ink a separate deal with Selex , simply buying Eurofighter from EADS dosen't gets you that . And you can tie up Selex eeven if you purchase Mig35 . No connection 
Tell me why you need Selex so badly - E/L is much more better IMO.


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## KEETARP

> does lca has open architechure ? , senior membors plz put some light!



Yes its an open architecture 
Data-buses , Data-Transmission rate , processors , connectors all follow a std wrt to pins/data transfer 

that is Mil-1553 std ,
same buses/pins will be in Missile connector or pods or any weapon/store .

You just need to modify the software source-codes that give direction for weapon controllers to perform a particular function .

Check this out - http://www.mil-1553.com/Excalibur08/index.asp
What hardware profile goes into making Mil-std1553

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## sancho

LT.PRATEEK said:


> Here it is ,
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/4346-lca-news-discussions-167.html#post913839


Thanks, it said:

So if their estimation is right, it must have 1/3 the RCS of a F16 for example, which is between 1 and 2 m². That means LCA should have a RCS of about 0.6m², or less and this is comparable to the RCS of the Eurocanards. Again one prove for LCAs potential!




LT.PRATEEK said:


> Why are you mixing LCAmk2 with MRCA as if only MRCA will decide will decide which radar will go into LCA.



I answerd this before:



> Also I never said we need Selsex, but Vixen 1000, RBE 2 AA and Zhuk AE are possible options and would give commonality, so reduced costs.


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## flanker143

the best wud be take elta 2052 , its is simply da best !


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## KEETARP

It means RCS of Tejas about 2m2 , you left the bracketed part .



> The Tejas features,
> *the designers claim*, are to be as follows:
> &#8211; high maneuverability;
> &#8211; multifunctionality;
> &#8211; all-weather day and night capability;
> &#8211; compatibility of cockpit instrumental equipment
> with night vision goggles;
> *&#8211; low radar echo, which is one third of that of
> similar size fighters (that is about 2 m2)*


.

2m2 but dosen't give which aspect ,
an all avg aspect will differ from Frontal , Back aspect . 
Which freq we are talking about an RCS of 1m2 at 1000Ghz , becomes 10 at 10000GHz


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## sancho

LT.PRATEEK said:


> It means RCS of Tejas about 2m2 , you left the bracketed part .



Read it again, please! 



> one third of that of similar size fighters (that is about 2 m2)



Similar size fighters *that* have a RCS of about 2m² and I gave an example for it in my last post, the F16!
PAFs new F16 block 52 are often quoted with a reduced RCS of 1.2m² and the older versions with higher.


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## sancho

Btw, I checked the news of EF weapon trials with German EFs and even in German forums they doubt that, because all A2G weapon that are integrated now are Paveway II, or EPW II bombs. The could also show drops of Paveway IV bombs, that is in the integrating stage but not much more. A2G missiles, JDAM, or anti ship missiles are still expected only for Tranche 3B, that might come beyond 2015 and if that is true EF for IAF would still be very limited in A2G.


----------



## KEETARP

sancho said:


> Read it again, please!



*low radar echo, which is one third of that of
similar size fighters (that is about 2 m2)*
Why would writer quote an un-calculated figure in article , when you know RCS and know 1/3 times . Simply calculate and write .

To confirm my point , i have written mail to air-fleet . Get back to you as soon as i get reply from them 



> Similar size fighters *that* have a RCS of about 2m&#178; and I gave an example for it in my last post, the F16!
> PAFs new F16 block 52 are often quoted with a reduced RCS of 1.2m&#178; and the older versions with higher.



Source for PAF F16 having RCS 1.2m2 , 
I heard F16E UAE had 1.2-1.6m2 

And similar aircraft could be Mirage2000 , 
Rafale is rumored to be 0.2-0.5m2 , certainly not better than Gripen . 

Dassault claim 1/10 to 1/20 of rcs of mirage = Rafale . 
Means Mirage could be 5m2 .
1/3 of Mirage = LCA , looks much more correct .


----------



## KEETARP

sancho said:


> Btw, I checked the news of EF weapon trials with German EFs and even in German forums they doubt that, because all A2G weapon that are integrated now are Paveway II, or EPW II bombs. The could also show drops of Paveway IV bombs, that is in the integrating stage but not much more. A2G missiles, JDAM, or anti ship missiles are still expected only for Tranche 3B, that might come beyond 2015 and if that is true EF for IAF would still be very limited in A2G.



Thanks , 
All the more reason apart from Radar why Euro-fighter is the worst choice of all of them .


----------



## sancho

LT.PRATEEK said:


> *low radar echo, which is one third of that of
> similar size fighters (that is about 2 m2)*
> Why would writer quote an un-calculated figure in article , when you know RCS and know 1/3 times . Simply calculate and write .



Come on Prateek, now you want to argue with me about the way the author wrote?

The fact is the figure he gave is meant to similar fighters and the 1/3 was about LCA. Just think about it logical once again! Isn't LCA developed with a low RCS in mind similar to the Eurocanards?
Didn't they replaced reflecting metals with composites and integrated RAM coatings like the Eurocanards?
Didn't they use ducted air intakes like the Eurocanards?
So if it is desgined and developed similar like them, why should LCA have a RCS that is at least 4 times higher?

Honestly man, why are you so much argueing against LCA?


----------



## flanker143

if the f 16 gotta rcs of 1m2, then why da hell lca rcs be any higher, lca is smaller than f 16 and 40&#37; of body weight is of composites , and 90% of body surface area is of composites and on that it got all those ram even its air inlets are designed in a shape that they protect engine blades from radar waves !!!


----------



## KEETARP

> meant to similar fighters



Could be , I said let's wait for mail .

*By the way PAF-F16 Block52 RCS source plz . 
*

And just to explain - I am not against LCA ,
Its just that you guys bring 
LCA better than gripen , and 
block2 = NG 
Gripen will harm LCA 
dosen't makes any sense .

Had that 126 Mirage2000 deal gone through , no-one would have questioned,why Mirages were bought 
when Mirage = LCA or LCA better than Mirage . Similar fighters etc.....

Last post on this off-topic LCA vs Gripen in an MRCA thread 
*An interview with a LCA test Pilot *


> In the words of the TP who flew Tejas to Leh - "It will be far better platform than Mig21.. and as good as Mirage".. "Its endurance or range is slightly better than Mirage, with lesser fuel".. though I wanted to seek clarification on the second statement - i could not..


Link - http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/21893-lca-blk1-will-have-hybride-mmr-elta-320-a.html

Rest my point - Good night . 
Plz - dont start Mirage vs Gripen


----------



## KEETARP

flanker143 said:


> if the f 16 gotta rcs of 1m2



Source plz , of 1m2 . 
On f16.net some claim F16E has 1.6m2 as its Frontal sector RCS in X band .
And how did they achieve it - Google "*HAVE GLASS2* RCS reduction on F16 " and "*Golden canopy treatment* on F22/F16e/F35"


----------



## gogbot

LT.PRATEEK said:


> Source plz , of 1m2 .
> On f16.net some claim F16E has 1.6m2 as its Frontal sector RCS in X band .
> And how did they achieve it - Google "*HAVE GLASS2* RCS reduction on F16 " and "*Golden canopy treatment* on F22/F16e/F35"



I, agree

Even if that is a true RCS , which i doubt it is.

Add weapons and pod and what ever reduction made becomes meaningless.

Most planes have the same ~RCS , when carrying weapons.


----------



## flanker143

> Source plz , of 1m2 .
> On f16.net some claim F16E has 1.6m2 as its Frontal sector RCS in X band .
> And how did they achieve it - Google "HAVE GLASS2 RCS reduction on F16 " and "Golden canopy treatment on F22/F16e/F35"


i gave an estimate man , u want source !!! just give a google search and find out urslf its everywhere on the net !!!



> I, agree
> 
> Even if that is a true RCS , which i doubt it is.
> 
> Add weapons and pod and what ever reduction made becomes meaningless.
> 
> Most planes have the same ~RCS , when carrying weapons.



i agree with u mate but to some extent , addition of weapons does adds up rcs, but it does not adds a hooligan rcs , airforces round the globe are not bunch of idiots who r inducting 'stealthier' jet (not stealth) into their forces !


----------



## KEETARP

> gave an estimate man , u want source !!! just give a google search and find out urslf its everywhere on the net !!!



Could not find one , plz help me out and post that link here , would also benefit other readers


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## flanker143

Situation Awareness

and u can see janes an f16.net also , its even there in wiki , 
i know wiki is not reliable , but its still not that bad for taking even estimates !


----------



## KEETARP

The link you provided , is writer's personal opinion . Not even a single source to backup his claims . Blog /Personal opinions vary from person to person 
See what he writes -


> F-117, B-2 F-22 also given as 0.01-0.001 m2, &#8216;marble sized&#8217; or fighter x 0.12-0.21
> 
> F-22 RCS requirement was 1/1000th the F-15. This has probably be exceeded by a large margin. *Even if the F-15 RCS is a large 25 m2, the F-22 is 0.025 m2 worst case *(fighter x 0.26).



He is not even sure of RCS of F15 , how much credible is this ? ? ? .

Janes and Lockheed martin + F16.net are reliable , post that link


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## flanker143

he might be talkin about the earliar versions of f15 which had larger rcs(maybe)


----------



## sudhir007

Hindustan Fighter said:


> I would also like to point out one of the most important advantages that Gripen offers over other competitors, they are offering integration of weapons of India's choice. Which means if I understand that we can have either of Indian, Russian, European and/ or American weapons on this fighter which will provide us the weapons versatility and also reduce cost due to commonality of weapons already available in IAF.


HF did you think other country like Russia or may any other country allow to add on their weapon on Gripen. this is Big Question ?? then what will you do and what will be use of These kind of Fighter Plane.


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## sudhir007

EADS to shift some Eurofighter development projects to India-Politics/Nation-News-The Economic Times

BERLIN: European Aeronautic Defence and Space Company NV (EADS) would transfer some of the development projects of its advanced fourth generation Eurofighter Typhoon or other military aircraft to India soon, a top company official said on Thursday.

"*We will transfer some of our development projects, which we have in Europe for Eurofighter or other military aircraft to India, where we have set up a military research and development (R&D) centre in Bangalore," EADS chief executive (defence & security) Stefan Zoller told IANS here*.

The Netherlands-based European aerospace corporation was created in 2000 by merging Aerospatiale Matra of France, DaimlerChrysler Aerospace AG (DASA) of Germany (excluding the MTU engine business) and Construcciones Aeronauticas SA (CASA) of Spain.

Asserting that the consortium's R&D activities were independent of its bid for the 126 medium multirole combat aircraft (MMRCA) for the Indian Air Force (IAF), Zoller said leveraging the high-skilled Indian talent and the potential of the emerging Indian aerospace industry would lead to developing new technologies and creation of jobs.

"If we win the IAF order, the development of newer versions of Typhoon for India and global market will result in *creation of about 20,000 direct jobs,* as the bid involves the *winner re-investing 50 percent of the deal in India's defence manufacturing industry," *Zoller said at the 100th Berlin international air show.

Besides Eurofighter, the US-based Lockheed Martin F-16s and Boeing's F/A-18IN Super Hornet, French D'Assault's Rafale, Swiss SAAB's Gripen and Russian MiG-35 are the other five contenders for the IAF order, estimated to be $10-12 billion.

The IAF plans to acquire 18 of these in ready-to-fly condition, with the remaining 118 being manufactured by the Indian defence behemoth Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) under technology transfer and licensed production, to replace its ageing Russian MiG-21 fleet and enhance its strike capability.

"*We will transfer 60 percent of the Eurofighter technology to India if Typhoon wins the bid. Our long-term strategy is to partner with the Indian aerospace industry for our global market, *as we consider the Indian talent and resources as an ideal source for knowhow and to develop newer technologies," Zoller said.

The consortium is keen on building a centre of competence and a centre of excellence in Bangalore through its Indian subsidiary to design and develop next-generation products and solutions to its European and global markets.

"We also want to establish a division of our defence and security wing in India independent of the IAF order for Typhoon not to duplicate what we are doing in Europe but replicate its business model to leverage the potential of the Indian aerospace industry through joint ventures and offset projects," Zoller added.

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## SpArK

EF is getting aggressive ..


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## SpArK

*European Eurofighter project to create 20,000 jobs in India*

BERLIN: Four-nation European consortium EADS is offering to create 20,000 high-skilled jobs in India if it bags the lucrative Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) contract. 

The contract would entail technology transfer and manufacture of the fighter planes by the buyer country. 

"We will create with the Eurofighter 20,000 high-skilled jobs in India. We have already hired eight engineers and will hire another 100 within the next 10-14 months and are looking particularly for electronic engineers," Stefan Zoller, head of EADS Defence and Security said. 

He maintained that this figure would go upto 250 engineers for Eurofighter in two years. 

Zoller argued that India's human resource had a rich talent in the field of software and had "proven high-quality" software professionals which could be tapped by the EADS, a consortium formed by UK, Germany, Spain and Italy. 

If the consortium wins this contract then several other companies would also be involved in the ambitious project, generating more employment. 

EADS, which makes Eurofighter Typhoon MMRCA, is one of the bidders for the 126 such fighter planes that India has floated tenders for. 

The European consortium is already working with India in building the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) being built in Bangalore. 

"40 Indian engineers are working in the LCA project partly here and in India," Bernhard Gerwert, CEO of (Military Air Systems) EADS, Defence and Security said. 

Though EADS is more than eager to include technology transfer as one of the key components of the deal, there is a concern about not getting 50 per cent stake in any venture established by the consortium in India. 

Recalling an earlier attempt to strike a deal with Larsen and Toubro in India, Zoller said a foreign company getting only 26 per cent stake became an issue. 

"Whatever we generate there, we get only 26 per cent. We want 50 per cent participation," he said. EADS officials maintain that they look at India as a partner and not just an "interesting market". 

"We want to become a strong security and defence company in India," Zoller said, adding that his aim was to create "centres of competence" there which would be meet global standards.



European Eurofighter project to create 20,000 jobs in India-Jobs-News By Industry-News-The Economic Times


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## KS

@Lt.Prateek.

Ur comments on this..?

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/4347-mrca-news-discussions-92.html#post920856


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## Tejas-MkII

It seem like EADS making their offer sweeter and sweeter.

I don't what the hell france is doing.

Rafale is my FAV. but Typhoon is going great


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## SpArK

*Eurofighter Snipes Lockheed, Says Typhoon More 5th-Gen Than F-35, Latter Not Even A Fighter!​*Friday, June 11, 2010







The Eurofighter Typhoon is much more of a 5th-Generation fighter than the Lockheed-Martin F-35 Lightning-II. That's the refrain of an article in the latest edition of Eurofighter's magazine Eurofighter World. Suggesting that the "generation sequence and headings used by Lockheed-Martin for fighters are generally shared by the defence community", the piece goes on to point out that "these classifications are truly too rigid and schematic to have any credibility, in the sense that a fighter such as the Eurofighter Typhoon exhibits all the qualities of a 5th generation fighter with the exception of full spectrum stealthiness (VLO) but is well above the legacy 4th generation platforms in all other measures of performance." Eurofighter says the US "uses and sometimes abuses" the generations issue.

"If we take the key attributes defining a 5th generation fighter the JSF satisfies only a few of them. Scoring the Eurofighter Typhoon against the same &#8220;admission criteria&#8221; as the 5th generation club, would produce a much higher compliance than JSF, for example, as the only missing part would be the VLO stealthiness," the article states, with a table depicting this compliance.


*
Here's the rest:*


So, if the F-35/JSF is not a 5th generation fighter, what is it then? Where does it belong? That is a very important question and needs a definition before it can be answered properly.

 A fighter is a combat aircraft whose aerodynamic characteristics, sensor suite and weapon capabilities are optimised to achieve the control of the air. Fighters actively look for and engage the opponent's fighter force. Strike aircraft generally avoid engagements with other fighters. The fighter generations concept obviously applies and is restricted to fighters. It cannot apply to bombers, strike and attack aircraft, even if sometimes these are inaccurately termed as fighters. Where does the good old A-4 Skyhawk or the Close Air Support A-10 belong in terms of fighter generations? Where does the F-117 fit? Certainly not in the fighter generation classes. The same is true also for the F-35/JSF.

 So, the inclusion of a tactical strike and attack platform in the fighter generation concept is a mistake. Simply put, the JSF is not a fighter and the two classes are not comparable. The process of designing a combat aircraft will inevitably result in a number of trade-offs. Any fighter is a compromise between aircraft manoeuvrability; high specific excess power; weapon effectiveness; highoff bore sight; IR/RF missiles; gun; combat persistence; high fuel fraction; maximum firepower; aircraft systems/sensors; human machine interface; situational understanding; helmet mounted displays; threat warning; countermeasures; good cockpit visibility.

 Survivability can beachieved by means other than Low Observability. For example thanks to layered information systems; mission definable preferences;automation of routine tasks; threat prioritisation; sensor fusion and inherent safety, you are able to avoid compromising the performance and flight characteristics of the aircraft and create a weapon system that does not suffer from the same inflexibility issues that the F-35 JSF appears to have. During the first Desert Storm attack against Iraq on the 17th January 1991, only 10 stealth aircraft from a total of 658 non stealth attack aircraft successfully hit targets in Iraq and Kuwait. That night there were no losses at all. So what is the lesson learnt? Clearly if you can hide an F-117, the primary stealth bomber of that time... you can also hide a B-52! However, if any air force is going to choose just one platform, they have to make sure it is fit for purpose. The main considerations should be: forget the generation labels and instead consider requirements & capabilities. Overall, military capability must meet a nation&#8217;s needs. If you cannot have the F-22, you need something of similar air-to-aircapability to support your attack aircraft at the same time. Survivability can be achieved by means other than stealthiness. A single platform designed only for strike missions is unlikely to satisfy all combat air power requirements. Today the Typhoon is the only aircraft capable of evolving ahead of the threat and in step with maturing technology.

LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence: Eurofighter Snipes Lockheed, Says Typhoon More 5th-Gen Than F-35, Latter Not Even A Fighter!

Original article. *LINK*

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## SpArK



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## SpArK



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## KS

@Lt.Prateek,sancho,gogbot..

U guys keep squabbling among urselves so that I can keep updating my knowledge due that...

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## sancho

Tejas-MkII said:


> It seem like EADS making their offer sweeter and sweeter.
> 
> I don't what the hell france is doing.
> 
> Rafale is my FAV. but Typhoon is going great



They have to, because the member countries needs this deal more than anything, that's why they will be ready to give us *a lot* to counter the disadvantages of highest costs, delays in development and integration of weapons.
Dassault (as sad as it is to me) don't follow the other companies with a similar PR strategy, they mainly count on showing IAF and MoD what their bird can, not. That's why they did not attend Aero India, but instead fully capable in the trials.
I heard from several French in other forums, that Dassault concentrates on MMRCA more when it gets closer to final stage only. Their actual concentration is about the Brazilian (for 36 fighters), or UAE (60 fighters) competition and as a side step also Swiss (up to 22 fighters) and Kuwait (around 24 fighters).

However, with more French avionics for our Mig 29s, Maitri co-development and a possible team up with MBDA, France in generall is getting closer to us, not to forget that EADS is half French too.


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## KEETARP

Karthic Sri said:


> @Lt.Prateek.
> 
> Ur comments on this..?
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/4347-mrca-news-discussions-92.html#post920856



Karthic , 
What you are saying is true when you compare Gripen with SH and Rafale . 
But for MRCA , air-force is not there to compare jets with each other 
*Trials are there to select Fighters which meet minimum ASR/QSR requirements* .
*Euro-fighter might be best in all aspects and beats everyone, but its off no use , we are not there to select Best jet but the jet which meets our requirements *

*Better go thru this interview* - 



> The Hindu News
> 
> *MMRCA SQRs emphasize attack potential and ownership costs *
> 
> August 17, 2009, (Sawf News) - The IAF MMRCA selection process appears to emphasize *attack potential *and *low cost of ownership, not air combat capability.*
> 
> A news report in the Hindu on the IAF MMRCA selection process makes on mention of the close combat capability of the contenders.
> 
> It says the contending aircraft will be tested for stability, control, safety issues, range and endurance during the flight evaluations with evaluating teams also assessing the capabilities of the radar, navigation equipment, self-defense suites and electronic warfare devices.
> 
> Armaments will be tested in the final phase.
> 
> Here is a translation of the above SQR: The IAF wants the aircraft that can deliver a given weapon load farthest with accuracy and return safely.
> 
> *In a refreshing departure from the past, the IAF will also assess the cost of ownership of each aircraft, taking into account factors such as the life of the engine, the cost of overhaul/replacement of engine and the cost to maintain these aircraft by establishing ground support*.
> 
> "*We do not compare one aircraft with another, but evaluate against its ability to meet our requirements and arrive at a through and methodical conclusion. There are no extra points for anyone crossing the minimum [SQR] requirements," an IAF officer familiar with the evaluation trials told the Hindu*.





> What we need now is a *genuine multirole strike aircraft *with excellent A2G capabilities and a good A2A capability


Except Eurofighter - Imo all are genuine multirole fighters .



> And i think the SH and Rafale satisfy these conditions better than Gripen.


Correct , but why compare jets with each other . We need the one which suits our req and pocket . And SH v Gripen is a different class machine . One is light wt category while F18 is medium-heavy wt category . By this logic Su30 would be even better when we get Brahmos +KH32/ +K-59c , max hardpoints etc . 



> And also by buying Rafale we can deny the Pakistanis avionics for their JF-17s and other contracts if we use it skilfully.



Frankly,This is just wishful thinking , France if wants to sell later will sell anyhow . They have good business with Pakistan as well . 



> Buying a gripen offers none of these.


That's for Air-force to decide , Personal opinions differ . I have supported Gripen and Mig35 throughout . Someone would prefer F16 and Eurofighter . And most famous Rafale 



> And as regards supercruise it is not of as much use in Indo-Pak scenario as it is made out to be



See the latest article what Euro-fighter pitches as strong point against F35

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## KEETARP

Gripen NG with *10 stations* , excellent T/W ratio and *6000Kg* armament ,lower operational cost during lifetime , cheap cost upfront . + + + +
A true winner at such lower cost


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## sudhir007

*Eurofighter Snipes Lockheed, Says Typhoon More 5th-Gen Than F-35, Latter Not Even A Fighter!*











The Eurofighter Typhoon is much more of a 5th-Generation fighter than the Lockheed-Martin F-35 Lightning-II. That's the refrain of an article in the latest edition of Eurofighter's magazine Eurofighter World. Suggesting that the "generation sequence and headings used by Lockheed-Martin for fighters are generally shared by the defence community", the piece goes on to point out that "these classifications are truly too rigid and schematic to have any credibility, in the sense that a fighter such as the Eurofighter Typhoon exhibits all the qualities of a 5th generation fighter with the exception of full spectrum stealthiness (VLO) but is well above the legacy 4th generation platforms in all other measures of performance." Eurofighter says the US "uses and sometimes abuses" the generations issue.

"If we take the key attributes defining a 5th generation fighter the JSF satisfies only a few of them. Scoring the Eurofighter Typhoon against the same &#8220;admission criteria&#8221; as the 5th generation club, would produce a much higher compliance than JSF, for example, as the only missing part would be the VLO stealthiness," the article states, with a table depicting this compliance.

Here's the rest:

*
So, if the F-35/JSF is not a 5th generation fighter, what is it then? Where does it belong? That is a very important question and needs a definition before it can be answered properly.

A fighter is a combat aircraft whose aerodynamic characteristics, sensor suite and weapon capabilities are optimised to achieve the control of the air. Fighters actively look for and engage the opponent's fighter force. Strike aircraft generally avoid engagements with other fighters. The fighter generations concept obviously applies and is restricted to fighters. It cannot apply to bombers, strike and attack aircraft, even if sometimes these are inaccurately termed as fighters. Where does the good old A-4 Skyhawk or the Close Air Support A-10 belong in terms of fighter generations? Where does the F-117 fit? Certainly not in the fighter generation classes. The same is true also for the F-35/JSF.

So, the inclusion of a tactical strike and attack platform in the fighter generation concept is a mistake. Simply put, the JSF is not a fighter and the two classes are not comparable. The process of designing a combat aircraft will inevitably result in a number of trade-offs. Any fighter is a compromise between aircraft manoeuvrability; high specific excess power; weapon effectiveness; highoff bore sight; IR/RF missiles; gun; combat persistence; high fuel fraction; maximum firepower; aircraft systems/sensors; human machine interface; situational understanding; helmet mounted displays; threat warning; countermeasures; good cockpit visibility.

Survivability can beachieved by means other than Low Observability. For example thanks to layered information systems; mission definable preferences;automation of routine tasks; threat prioritisation; sensor fusion and inherent safety, you are able to avoid compromising the performance and flight characteristics of the aircraft and create a weapon system that does not suffer from the same inflexibility issues that the F-35 JSF appears to have. During the first Desert Storm attack against Iraq on the 17th January 1991, only 10 stealth aircraft from a total of 658 non stealth attack aircraft successfully hit targets in Iraq and Kuwait. That night there were no losses at all. So what is the lesson learnt? Clearly if you can hide an F-117, the primary stealth bomber of that time... you can also hide a B-52! However, if any air force is going to choose just one platform, they have to make sure it is fit for purpose. The main considerations should be: forget the generation labels and instead consider requirements & capabilities. Overall, military capability must meet a nation&#8217;s needs. If you cannot have the F-22, you need something of similar air-to-aircapability to support your attack aircraft at the same time. Survivability can be achieved by means other than stealthiness. A single platform designed only for strike missions is unlikely to satisfy all combat air power requirements. Today the Typhoon is the only aircraft capable of evolving ahead of the threat and in step with maturing technology.

LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence: Eurofighter Snipes Lockheed, Says Typhoon More 5th-Gen Than F-35, Latter Not Even A Fighter!


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## KEETARP

Sudhir , 
EADS is so desperate they can declare anything now , they are on verge of losing 10,000 jobs and in contrast offering India 20,000 jobs and what not promises .

*DTN News: Eurofighter Woos Buyers For 10 Billion Euro Order*


> Source: DTN News / Reuters By Tim Hepher Wed Jun 9, 2010 1:09pm EDT
> (NSI News Source Info) BERLIN, Germany - *June 10*, 2010: Defence firms have moved to kickstart negotiations over the Eurofighter Typhoon by asking Britain, Germany, Italy and Spain to invest an estimated 10 billion euros ($13.42 billion) in the next wave of jet fighter production.
> A spokesman for a consortium of BAE Systems (BAES.L), EADS (EAD.PA) and Finmeccanica (SIFI.MI) told Reuters it had submitted an offer at the end of May -- a move that analysts say could trigger a tug of war over dwindling defence budgets during a European sovereign debt crisis.
> The spokesman declined to disclose the value of the offer, which covers 124 planes, but defence industry sources at the Berlin Air Show said it was around 10 billion euros.
> Eurofighter says a decision on whether to build the planes would be needed within a year in order to avoid a production gap it believes would be damaging for exports and hit jobs.
> The climate for talks is difficult, however, after Germany announced tough defence cuts and Britain promised to defer any major spending decisions until after a strategic defence review.
> Britain, Germany, Italy and Spain have so far taken delivery of a combined 222 Eurofighter Typhoons out of the 620 they originally ordered.
> The original order spanned three separate tranches. *But the third and final production run of 236 planes had to be split up last year when buyers could only agree to purchase 112 aircraft*.
> *Any decision to cancel the rest is likely to trigger calls for compensation as well as intensive lobbying over the fate of 100,000 jobs tied up directly or indirectly in the project*.
> Besides domestic contracts, Saudi Arabia has ordered 70 of the planes and 15 have been sold to Austria.
> The Typhoon is competing in a number of contests against rival models such as the French Rafale (AVMD.PA), Swedish Gripen SAAB.ST or Boeing's F-18 (BA.N).
> Switzerland has renewed interest in updating its fighter fleet after suspending a competition last year and could make a decision later in 2010, air show delegates said.
> Other nearby countries showing interest in deals or evaluating their positions include Serbia, Romania and Turkey.
> *Middle East and Asian demand has been strong as countries face new threats or pressure to renew ageing fleets.*
> But Brazil, actively courted by France as the first foreign buyer for its Dassault-built Rafale, has so far delayed a decision and may have to postpone until after Oct. 3 elections.
> "We are worried; nothing is happening at the moment," a French industrial source said of the competition, in which Eurofighter is not represented. (*$1=.7453 Euro*)
> (Additional reporting by Matthias Blamont in Paris; editing by Simon Jessop)


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## Dash

LT.PRATEEK said:


> The link you provided , is writer's personal opinion . Not even a single source to backup his claims . Blog /Personal opinions vary from person to person
> See what he writes -
> 
> 
> He is not even sure of RCS of F15 , how much credible is this ? ? ? .
> 
> Janes and Lockheed martin + F16.net are reliable , post that link


Hi Prateek - Another day..

See RCS is just a scientific teram and has got little relevance to military use I think. The reason RCS differ is different kind of situation. Basically saying. RCS of an aircraft will depend upon power of the emitting RADAR, distance of the aircraft, Relative distance to wavelength of emitting RADAR. etc..

I will agree with Gogbot here, because till date we dont know whats the actual range of a radar, whats the power of antenna, gain etc. So until the we know that we cant actually arrive at an RCS againt whatever the frequency is.

I will say a fighter like Gripen or F-16 will have minimal difference in RCS and that will be compromised by the range of the radar they will use.

No where in northrupp grumman and selex vixen the range and the actual parameters to claculate the RCS is specified..

Feel free to comment.


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## sancho

LT.PRATEEK said:


> And just to explain - I am not against LCA ,
> Its just that you guys bring
> LCA better than gripen , and
> block2 = NG
> Gripen will harm LCA
> dosen't makes any sense .



Nobody said LCA = Gripen, but more than close and that would be good enough for our indigenous development. But you are negating so hard nearly everything point that could be good about it and it's potential. Don't forget that LCA in any version cost also nearly half has a comparable Gripen, so even if it would be not completely on par, if it's close and still cheaper it would be the better choice. Why pay $60 - 70 millions for each Gripen NG, if a LCA can be close in capability but for $30 - 50 millions the max? 

I am not an LCA fan boy in generall and if you followed my comments in the LCA thread, you should saw several comments of me about the failures through the development.
If you said LCA is totally delayed, or that it still had many faults, or is under development only, I completely had agreed with you. But you also have to admit that, LCA is developed for exactly the same roles, exaclty the same aim of a cost-effective lightweight fighter, both developments started even at the same time. Also with similar design and materials, it even had the same consultants for design, or techs like all Eurocanards (BAE, Dassault, EADS), so it shouldn't be surprising that LCA has the potential to be so close to Gripen.



LT.PRATEEK said:


> Had that 126 Mirage2000 deal gone through , no-one would have questioned,why Mirages were bought
> when Mirage = LCA or LCA better than Mirage . Similar fighters etc.....



Yes, because they were only a fast replacement at LCA MK1 level (4th gen capabilities), but we would still have further developed LCA to MK2 which obviously will be better than Mirage 2000-5 in design. Gripen NG instead is at a level that LCA can achieve too, but if we already can licence produce it, why should HAL/IAF/MoD put more effort into the development of LCA MK2, or even further versions?

Bottom line for me is, pay less for LCAs and order them in numbers, but pay more for MMRCAs that are more capable and gives more advantages to our forces.
LCA - Rafale - FGFA - stealth UCAV would be the best for IAF and IN in the next 2-3 decades!


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## gogbot

LT.PRATEEK said:


> Karthic ,
> What you are saying is true when you compare Gripen with SH and Rafale .
> But for MRCA , air-force is not there to compare jets with each other
> *Trials are there to select Fighters which meet minimum ASR/QSR requirements* .
> *Euro-fighter might be best in all aspects and beats everyone, but its off no use , we are not there to select Best jet but the jet which meets our requirements *



I understand.

But then how are they short listed , surely there is some form of commission.

I have a source from PIB

PIB Press Release



> *Tuesday, August 28, 2007
> *
> Ministry of Defence
> 
> Request for Proposal for 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft Issued
> 
> 17:30 IST
> The Request for Proposal (RFP) for the procurement of 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) at an estimated cost of Rs. 42,000 crores for the Indian Air Force was issued today to six vendors  Russias MIG-35(RAC MiG); Swedish JAS-39 (Gripen);Dassault Rafale (France); American F-16 Falcon (Lockheed Martin); Boeings F/A-18 Super Hornet and Eurofighter Typhoon (Made by a consortium of British, German, Spanish and Italian firms). The 211-page document deals with various issues relating to initial purchase, transfer of technology, licensed production and life-time maintenance support for the aircraft. The RFP contains the selection model that would involve an exhaustive evaluation process as detailed in the Defence Procurement Procedures (DPP)  2006.
> 
> *The proposals from the likely contenders would first be technically evaluated by a professional team to check for compliance with IAFs operational requirements and other RFP conditions.
> 
> *Extensive field trials would be carried out to evaluate the performance.
> 
> *Finally, the commercial proposal of the vendors, short-listed after technical and field evaluations, would be examined and compared.
> 
> *The aircraft are likely to be in service for over 40 years. Great care has been taken to ensure that only determinable factors, which do not lend themselves to any subjectivity, are included in the commercial selection model. The selection would be transparent and fair.
> *
> 
> Under the terms of purchase, the first 18 aircraft will come in a fly away condition while the remaining 108 will be manufactured under Transfer of Technology. The vendor finally selected would also be required to undertake 50% offset obligations in India. *The ToT and offset contracts would provide a great technological and economic boost to the indigenous defence industries which would include Defence Public Sector Undertakings, Raksha Udyog Ratnas and other eligible private sector industries.* Foreign vendors would be provided great flexibility in effecting tie up with Indian partners for this purpose.
> 
> It may be recalled that the Defence Minister Shri A K Antony while chairing the Defence Acquisition Council Meeting on June 29, 2007 had outlined *three guiding principles for this procurement scheme. *
> 
> First,* the operational requirements of IAF should be fully met.*
> 
> Second, the selection process should be competitive, fair and transparent, so that *best value for money is realized. *
> 
> Lastly,* Indian defence industries should get an opportunity to grow to global scales. *
> 
> Sitanshu Kar / HS






LT.PRATEEK said:


> That's for Air-force to decide , Personal opinions differ . I have supported Gripen and Mig35 throughout . Someone would prefer F16 and Eurofighter . And most famous Rafale
> 
> See the latest article what Euro-fighter pitches as strong point against F35



But Mig-35 , has significant issues meeting the Delivery schedule , would it not be better to go with a more safer option.

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## KS

LT.PRATEEK said:


> Karthic ,
> What you are saying is true when you compare Gripen with SH and Rafale .
> But for MRCA , air-force is not there to compare jets with each other
> *Trials are there to select Fighters which meet minimum ASR/QSR requirements* .



Prateek that is wat the MoD says to satisfy all the vendors.
But frankly dont u think we should go for a platform that is excellent in A2G as this is one area where our technology is relatively outdated (Jags,Mig-27s).
The need of the hour(and our AF) is medium to long rage strike fighter not a point defence light weight fighter.




LT.PRATEEK said:


> Euro-fighter might be best in all aspects and beats everyone, but its off no use , we are not there to select Best jet but the jet which meets our requirements
> *Better go thru this interview* -
> Except Eurofighter - Imo all are genuine multirole fighters .



Yes i agree.....but a Rafale with higher number of HP's,greater range,payload,equal or better avionics is in my opinion a better bet anyday than the Gripen.
The only thing against the Rafale is the cost but hey if its a choice of quality over cost we should go fior the cost.




LT.PRATEEK said:


> Correct , but why compare jets with each other . We need the one which suits our req and pocket . And SH v Gripen is a different class machine . One is light wt category while F18 is medium-heavy wt category . By this logic Su30 would be even better when we get Brahmos +KH32/ +K-59c , max hardpoints etc .



Yes but we cant be depending on the MKI for all our needs..By that logic we can scrape the MRCA and produce 500 MKI instead in that cost.But thats not our intention.
We need a omnirole fighter that can match the MKI in perfomance but with western tech.
I cant think of a fighter that fits the bill other than Rafale.




LT.PRATEEK said:


> Frankly,This is just wishful thinking , France if wants to sell later will sell anyhow . They have good business with Pakistan as well .



Yeah true to some extent.But thats y i used the word *"skilfully"*.Moreover even if we cant cancel the deal we can atleast delay the deal to a large extent that it will be unnecessary by the time it is cleared.




LT.PRATEEK said:


> That's for Air-force to decide , Personal opinions differ . I have supported Gripen and Mig35 throughout . Someone would prefer F16 and Eurofighter . And most famous Rafale



Yeah.....lets all agree to disagree here and put the onus on the IAF and some wise babu in the MoD.



See the latest article what Euro-fighter pitches as strong point against F35[/QUOTE]


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## sancho

LT.PRATEEK said:


> The Hindu News
> 
> MMRCA SQRs emphasize attack potential and ownership costs
> 
> August 17, 2009, (Sawf News) - The IAF MMRCA selection process appears to emphasize *attack potential* and low cost of ownership, *not air combat capability*.



If that is true, Gripen NG has even less chances, because it's attack/strike capability is low (2 stations for bombs and 2 for fuel tanks only) and it is mainly an interceptor so for air combat.
If you add the cost of owner ship to strike and less air combat capability it hints even more on F18SH than ever before. MKI might have similar payload, stations, but its huge RCS makes it usefull for strikes from far distance.


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## gogbot

LT.PRATEEK said:


> Gripen NG with *10 stations* , excellent T/W ratio and *6000Kg* armament ,lower operational cost during lifetime , cheap cost upfront . + + + +
> A true winner at such lower cost



Gripen does not get enough attention.
It's a little sad given that it's only fault is being associated with the Tejas.

(my points against the Gripen still stand a *possible *negative)

*it is the only aircraft apart form the Euro Fighter that can super cruise*
















Gripen takes of in just 12 sec of runway






May be the year is wrong ?






Why is MKI here , just because

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## KEETARP

> We need a omnirole fighter that can match the MKI in perfomance but with western tech.





> But frankly dont u think we should go for a platform that is excellent in A2G as this is one area where our technology is relatively outdated (Jags,Mig-27s).
> The need of the hour(and our AF) is medium to long rage strike fighter not a point defence light weight fighter.



See , Karthic . 
MKI is not standard/minimal performance against which we are comparing
What performance criteria Air-force has set , no one believe me no one knows, even Fighter Pilots/Training instructors whom I know don't have much idea about it . 
Whether its Long-range bomb-truck or multi-role air-combat , those criteria only IAF knows or *Lockheed-Martin Official *who had access to those documents 
If we are ready to spend money on development of Euro-fighter like Eurofighter-MKIn , then none of fighters offered can come close to match its performance . But is IAF looking for such performance ???

What we get is little bit of inputs/pieces from Vishnu Som who is closely following MRCA trials since start . 
Exactly what IAF means by *meaningful load* for Leh or Jaiselmer trials 



> By Vishnu-Som , defnce editor NDTV India
> The Gripen Campaign for the Indian MMRCA seems to be gaining good ground. With trials in India and Sweden going fairly well so far, the Gripen has emerged as a strong contender even as defence writers have noted the performance of the aircraft.
> 
> Vishnu Som, a defence expert and associate editor of India's leading News Channel NDTV writes in the Bharat Rakshak forum:
> 
> "*The Gripen Ds did sensationally in their tests when they were in India recently. The D restarted and took off from Leh with a loadout of 2.6 tonnes which included air to air missiles and underwing fuel tanks*. The heat test went off very well in Jaisalmer. It meant placing the aircraft in the sun for a *designated period of time*, *firing her up* and flying her at *maximum speed at low altitude* while checking out all the systems. They also dropped a bomb flying out of Jaisalmer. *They also did tanking ops*.
> 
> And ... no need to hold your breath any longer ... the Demo will be here in mid May and will likely do the Leh trip again and anything that the Indian Air Force requests. They were earlier unable to bring in the Demonstrator because of tasking with the Swedish Air Force which happened at exactly the same time that they were supposed to come to India.
> 
> Indian Air Force pilots travel to Sweden in the next few days. They are free to fly the Demo there if they want though they will be firing an AMRAAM off a D platform. *My sources tell me that Indian Air Force pilots loved the jet while it was here, particularly its man-machine interface and the intuitive nature of the setup ..."*
> 
> Incidentally, Vishnu makes it clear in his post that:
> 
> 1. I do not endorse any of the MMRCA competitors.
> 2. I sincerely hope the Indian Air Force gets the plane it wants and the decision is NOT a political one



You see he gives just a slight highlighted point , what could be one of the requirements for IAF . Load which F18/MKI can carry may be 8000 , what air-force is looking is whether 2.5tons can be carried in high altitude operations flawlessly or not .


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## flanker143

> Gripen does not get enough attention.
> It's a little sad given that it's only fault is being associated with the Tejas



why do u want a fighter in a 10 bn deal when a similar jet with more or less capabilities is already being inducted !! dats why it is gettin less attention , and take my word if gripen gets selected (<10&#37; chance)

it wud be only bcoz of itz low cost !!!


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## KS

LT.PRATEEK said:


> See , Karthic .
> MKI is not standard/minimal performance against which we are comparing
> What performance criteria Air-force has set , no one believe me no one knows, even Fighter Pilots/Training instructors whom I know don't have much idea about it .
> Whether its Long-range bomb-truck or multi-role air-combat , those criteria only IAF knows or *Lockheed-Martin Official *who had access to those documents
> If we are ready to spend money on development of Euro-fighter like Eurofighter-MKIn , then none of fighters offered can come close to match its performance . But is IAF looking for such performance ???
> 
> What we get is little bit of inputs/pieces from Vishnu Som who is closely following MRCA trials since start .
> Exactly what IAF means by *meaningful load* for Leh or Jaiselmer trials
> 
> 
> 
> You see he gives just a slight highlighted point , what could be one of the requirements for IAF . Load which F18/MKI can carry may be 8000 , what air-force is looking is whether 2.5tons can be carried in high altitude operations flawlessly or not .




Prateek we are not discussing wat the IAF thinks or the MoD thinks...we discuss wat the *MoD must choose according to our own opinions.*.

And as such,as much i respect ur opinions...my opinion stands..


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## Tejas-MkII

BENNY said:


> YouTube - Rafale IR Signature Comparison



I saw this video long time back at BR , i am like 

Imagine this much of IR signature and have IRST like PAK-FA it can be  in the sky.


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## Hindustan Fighter

I have one question.
India had originally allocated 42000 Rs (which as per current exchange rate comes to $9 billion) for the 126 mmrca. I believe that this amount includes the cost of ToT and spares parts. 
Most of the people here want Rafale, Typhoon because the seem to be best fighters on offer.
Now if we look at the final bid submitted by the respective manufacturers for Brazilian fighter competition for 36 fighters, we will have following figures 
*Rafale- 10.2 $ Billion (6.2$ bn for jets and 4$ bn for maintenance )
Super hornet- 7.6 $ Bn (5.7 $ Bn for jet and rest for maintenance)
Gripen Ng- 6 $ bn (4.5 $ bn for jet and rest for maintenance) * 

Considering the above figures what would the cost for our 126 jets. If we thing of rafale the cost of jets alone would go to around 16-18 $ Bn + maintenance (spares)cost would be around 6-8 $ Bn, with total cost as high as 22 to 26 $ billion.
-Friends to you thinks India Government can stretch the initial allocated money (around 10$ Bn) to such a great extend.
-Also don't you guys think that if jets like gripen IN, Mig 35 or F16-IN if they fulfill requirements stated by IAF and costing around 10 to 12 $Bn would be more logical options.


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## chachag

Hindustan Fighter said:


> I have one question.
> India had originally allocated 42000 Rs (which as per current exchange rate comes to $9 billion) for the 126 mmrca. I believe that this amount includes the cost of ToT and spares parts.
> Most of the people here want Rafale, Typhoon because the seem to be best fighters on offer.
> Now if we look at the final bid submitted by the respective manufacturers for Brazilian fighter competition for 36 fighters, we will have following figures
> *Rafale- 10.2 $ Billion (6.2$ bn for jets and 4$ bn for maintenance )
> Super hornet- 7.6 $ Bn (5.7 $ Bn for jet and rest for maintenance)
> Gripen Ng- 6 $ bn (4.5 $ bn for jet and rest for maintenance) *
> 
> Considering the above figures what would the cost for our 126 jets. If we thing of rafale the cost of jets alone would go to around 16-18 $ Bn + maintenance (spares)cost would be around 6-8 $ Bn, with total cost as high as 22 to 26 $ billion.
> -Friends to you thinks India Government can stretch the initial allocated money (around 10$ Bn) to such a great extend.
> -Also don't you guys think that if jets like gripen IN, Mig 35 or F16-IN if they fulfill requirements stated by IAF and costing around 10 to 12 $Bn would be more logical options.



But their are one correction they submit their bid in Brazil only for 36 fighter and we want 126 (may be 200) and second thing after first 18 aircrafts rest will be made in India so cost per unit also decreases by this.


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## Hindustan Fighter

chachag said:


> But their are one correction they submit their bid in Brazil only for 36 fighter and we want 126 (may be 200) and second thing after first 18 aircrafts rest will be made in India so cost per unit also decreases by this.



No even Brazil is going to produce them locally with ToT, same as Indian requirements. I dont think its going to cost us any less then the one i stated above. Also Brazil is likely to complete negotiations this year but India wont complete negotiations before 2012. This further 2 yrs gap might increase the cost further. Generally it is know that fighter jets cost increase by around 10% every year.


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## Dash

> But their are one correction they submit their bid in Brazil only for 36 fighter and we want 126 (may be 200) and second thing after first 18 aircrafts rest will be made in India so cost per unit also decreases by this.



True, the economy of scale will apply here and you will see much more complex pricing here, but low.

However the same will happen in Brazil too. These are just the bids and not the final negotiations. Coz there you will include weapons package, Number of aircraft you are buying. The bid in Brazil was suppiled before Euro went down, now that Eoru went down by 25&#37; then expect a lower bid.

Hang on guys, we will see the better picture in coming month.


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## gogbot

Hindustan Fighter said:


> I have one question.
> India had originally allocated 42000 Rs (which as per current exchange rate comes to $9 billion) for the 126 mmrca. I believe that this amount includes the cost of ToT and spares parts.
> Most of the people here want Rafale, Typhoon because the seem to be best fighters on offer.
> Now if we look at the final bid submitted by the respective manufacturers for Brazilian fighter competition for 36 fighters, we will have following figures
> *Rafale- 10.2 $ Billion (6.2$ bn for jets and 4$ bn for maintenance )
> Super hornet- 7.6 $ Bn (5.7 $ Bn for jet and rest for maintenance)
> Gripen Ng- 6 $ bn (4.5 $ bn for jet and rest for maintenance) *
> 
> Considering the above figures what would the cost for our 126 jets. If we thing of rafale the cost of jets alone would go to around 16-18 $ Bn + maintenance (spares)cost would be around 6-8 $ Bn, with total cost as high as 22 to 26 $ billion.
> -Friends to you thinks India Government can stretch the initial allocated money (around 10$ Bn) to such a great extend.
> -Also don't you guys think that if jets like gripen IN, Mig 35 or F16-IN if they fulfill requirements stated by IAF and costing around 10 to 12 $Bn would be more logical options.



those prices are no where near final , even if they are our prices

There is one round of price competitiveness for Short listing , another one after .

And more negotiations after winner is selected


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## Sri

Hey the following link states diff numbers for brazil (courtesy Saurab)

Sarkozy to Brazil with fighter jet bid looming | Siasat



> Brazil's air force has not given a price tag for the 36 jets, which it hopes to have delivered by 2014. But the private Agencia Estado news service said it could be between $2.2 billion and $2.5 billion. The total number of jets ordered could also increase up to 100.


Saab's Brazilian combat jet deal is slipping

how far the above info in links is correct?


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## sancho

Hindustan Fighter said:


> I have one question.
> India had originally allocated 42000 Rs (which as per current exchange rate comes to $9 billion) for the 126 mmrca. I believe that this amount includes the cost of ToT and spares parts.
> Most of the people here want Rafale, Typhoon because the seem to be best fighters on offer.
> Now if we look at the final bid submitted by the respective manufacturers for Brazilian fighter competition for 36 fighters, we will have following figures
> *Rafale- 10.2 $ Billion (6.2$ bn for jets and 4$ bn for maintenance )
> Super hornet- 7.6 $ Bn (5.7 $ Bn for jet and rest for maintenance)
> Gripen Ng- 6 $ bn (4.5 $ bn for jet and rest for maintenance) *
> 
> Considering the above figures what would the cost for our 126 jets. If we thing of rafale the cost of jets alone would go to around 16-18 $ Bn + maintenance (spares)cost would be around 6-8 $ Bn, with total cost as high as 22 to 26 $ billion.
> -Friends to you thinks India Government can stretch the initial allocated money (around 10$ Bn) to such a great extend.
> -Also don't you guys think that if jets like gripen IN, Mig 35 or F16-IN if they fulfill requirements stated by IAF and costing around 10 to 12 $Bn would be more logical options.



I said it often enough, but not get bored to say it again. The cost per fighter is different in any competition, because it depends mainly on the numbers that will be ordered, or if it is a licence production, what parts and weapons will be included an so on. 

Saabs (expected) proposal for Brazil like you said $6 billion (system price, including weapons, spares, training...) for 36 Gripen NG, which means $166,6 per fighter.

Saabs proposal for Norway was $4,77 billions (systemprice) for 48 Gripen NG, which means $99,3 millions per fighter.

Saabs proposal for Netherlands was $5,81 billions (systemprice) for 85 Gripen NG, which means $68,3 millions per fighter.

As you can see, numbers makes the biggest difference and the MMRCA is for at least 126, which could be increased to 200.


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## sancho

Sri said:


> Hey the following link states diff numbers for brazil (courtesy Saurab)
> 
> Sarkozy to Brazil with fighter jet bid looming | Siasat
> 
> 
> Saab's Brazilian combat jet deal is slipping
> 
> how far the above info in links is correct?



The Brazilian Air Force have indeed the need to replace nearly 100 fighters, that is also one reason why they prefer Gripen NG, because it has low unit and operational costs and they could order more of them. Their MoD instead is looking for an reliable and sanction prove strategic partner for the future, because Brazil is like India an emerging country and needs to be less dependend from US. And these are exactly the points that are Gripen NGs disadvantages, dependence on other countries like US and no political, or strategic advantages.
The Rafale and France are the only contender that offers anything what Brazil wants, the only downside are the higher costs, that's why it's more than doubtful that anybody else than Rafale will win there.

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## flanker143

what are the specs of specs of captor ?

is su 30 mki getting mlu ?? , if yes the what kind of package is expected ??


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## ouiouiouiouiouioui

well there are some words about "Typhoon"

i am not so sure but this the word...


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## flanker143

what are the specs of captor radar ?

are they comparable to that of bars ??

is su 30 mki getting mlu ?? , if yes the what kind of package is expected ??


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## sam27

Have few opinions that are bothering me:
1) Mig 35 is not gonna win simply because the whole point of MMRCA is diversification.
2) Choosing U.S. planes would certainly would not pass a good signal to China who would feel hostile and see India as next American base.
3) If we do not choose U.S. fighters than there would be lot of issues regarding Gripen, possibly denial of systems.
4) Euro zone collectively does not offer any international leverage to us. 
5) Rafale, has not had any export experience. I mean it has not exported the planes to any country so timeline could be drawn?

So wt is the best option in this case?


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## saurabh

sam27 said:


> Have few opinions that are bothering me:
> 1) Mig 35 is not gonna win simply because the whole point of MMRCA is diversification.


Agreed, it must not be chosen for several reasons.


> 2) Choosing U.S. planes would certainly would not pass a good signal to China who would feel hostile and see India as next American base.


China is mature enough to not think like that, and we are purchasing the fighters for our security, not to flatter the Chinese.



> 3) If we do not choose U.S. fighters than there would be lot of issues regarding Gripen, possibly denial of systems.


Why would US do so. If its fighters are not chosen, Gripen means little income indirectly.



> 4) Euro zone collectively does not offer any international leverage to us.


IAF would not care for such leverage. Besides, we have lot more to offer the west that a just 10Bn $ deal. Lot more, so this deal may be used for what it is, selecting suitable jet for need of our air-force.



> 5) Rafale, has not had any export experience. I mean it has not exported the planes to any country so timeline could be drawn?


Rafale would be in French airforce for a long time, they would go for upgrades, no prob there. Manufacturing would be in India, so we would decide production timeline. Also, since we would have (if chosen) significant share of total planes, we would hold a greater say for future upgrades etc.

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## gogbot

sam27 said:


> Have few opinions that are bothering me:
> 1) Mig 35 is not gonna win simply because the whole point of MMRCA is diversification.



That is not the priority but only an opportunity.

As long as the deal is what suits the IAF can it can in some way hopefully better our aviation industry any plane may be chosen.

But mig-35 still not ready and may cause delays , until that is sorted out no mig-35 deal , in my opinion



sam27 said:


> 2) Choosing U.S. planes would certainly would not pass a good signal to China who would feel hostile and see India as next American base.



Worse yet , US planes come with a slew of restrictions
all of which we should try avoid.

If US wants to sell to India , they agree to our terms not us agreeing to theirs.

OF course this doe's not always apply , but you get the basic idea.



sam27 said:


> 3) If we do not choose U.S. fighters than there would be lot of issues regarding Gripen, possibly denial of systems.



US is not petty , and it knows if it crosses us on something like this , we may not trust them any time soon. By showing us their reliability as a 3rd party supplier, they better their chances in future deals.



sam27 said:


> 4) Euro zone collectively does not offer any international leverage to us.



It offers us huge international pull , with many Eruo zone nations , including France and Briton who still have Security council seats if you don't remember.

As well as some of the largest and wealthiest economies . And of course the political influence that comes with.



sam27 said:


> 5) Rafale, has not had any export experience. I mean it has not exported the planes to any country so timeline could be drawn?



Dassult makes the Raffale and has exported planes to India before .
the Dassult Mirage for example.

they are reliable suppliers with whom we have past experience with.



sam27 said:


> So wt is the best option in this case?



I don't think the Mig-35 is ready
The Americans come with to much baggage

It is a European Option.

its only down side is expense. which is better then the Russian and US problems.

Rafale , to expensive , but good plane meets out needs TOT plus AESA source code.

Eurofighter , very expensive , very good craft , i think it meets our need . ToT + plus euro-fighter partnership. Very interesting but also very long term investment into a very expensive plane. (you get more than just a plane with this one)

Saab Gripen , affordable , good craft , perfectly fits out needs , it has super cruise , tot. 

People keep telling me Gripen fit's needs best , pilots say plane is very intuitive

I think politically Euro fighter would be best. Technically its also the most capable.

Rafale , i suppose it tries to strike a balance between the other two.
but not really , its a good strike fighter , similar to our mirages so easier to train and induct 

But only Gripen And EF can Super cruise , so that will tell you what kind of craft they are.

the choice
Its really like Efficiency(Saab) versus effectiveness(EF) . 



> efficiency means "doing the thing right," effectiveness means "doing the right thing."


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## flanker143

besides being the best jet in the mmrca the eurofighter is coming with the best over all deal...with all those frills and trills ......ef patnership ...ej200 ....etc etc 

and to make that even better it is now going to be 25&#37; cheaper.....

i am eagerly waiting to see IAF insignia on it !!!!


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## sancho

gogbot said:


> It is a European Option.
> 
> its only down side is expense. which is better then the Russian and US problems.
> 
> Rafale , to expensive , but good plane meets out needs TOT plus AESA source code.
> 
> Eurofighter , very expensive , very good craft , i think it meets our need . ToT + plus euro-fighter partnership. Very interesting but also very long term investment into a very expensive plane. (you get more than just a plane with this one)
> 
> Saab Gripen , affordable , good craft , perfectly fits out needs , it has super cruise , tot.
> 
> People keep telling me Gripen fit's needs best , pilots say plane is very intuitive
> 
> I think politically Euro fighter would be best. Technically its also the most capable.
> 
> Rafale , i suppose it tries to strike a balance between the other two.
> but not really , its a good strike fighter , similar to our mirages so easier to train and induct
> 
> But only Gripen And EF can Super cruise , so that will tell you what kind of craft they are.
> 
> the choice
> Its really like Efficiency(Saab) versus effectiveness(EF) .



I agree with you that the choice must be a European, but I disagree about some other points. What exactly do you think is "our needs"?

You said all would fit it, but although EF, Rafale and Gripen NG are have similar delta wing / canard designs and are aimed on high manouverability as well as low RCSs, their roles are still different. EF and Gripen NG are mainly aimed on A2A, Gripen NG as an light weight interceptor and the EF as an air superiority fighter. That's why SC and maximum speed are more important for them, than payload, or range, but only the EF will have a radar with comparable long ranges like the Flankers for example. 
The Rafale instead is aimed on omni role capabilitie, means same maneouverability, low RCS, to be good in WVR and BVR, but because it was designed as a carrier fighter too, range and payload was important too.
The only point where the Rafale lacks behind the EF is radar diameter, and top speed, but not in t/w ratios, manouverability, or technologies. That's why I always say, it is way closer to EF in A2A, than the EF would be to Rafale in A2G.

Imo, the focus of IAF can't be A2A, because we already induct numbers of ne fighters that has A2A mainly in mind too (LCA light weight interceptors and MKI/ Pak Fa air superiority fighters) and that's exactly the reason why neither Gripen NG, nor EF with less developed A2G capabilities would fit. 

The other point is the EF partnership, it is not an equal partnership, it's only for the production of avionics. We won't have any say fur further developments, or upgrades, 3 of the 4 members have higher orders than our 126 fighters.
On the other side, there is no other competition where Rafale could get such a big order than in MMRCA, which means, even if they win Brazil, UAE and Kuwait like it seems, we still would have the second highest order besides France itself. So where are the higher chances of a partnership that would be worth it?
Kaveri-Snecma engine, Topsight HMD, MBDA partnership for weapons, Maitri SAM JV, not to forget that EADS is half French too, all strong points that shows the chances of a good Indo-French strategic partnership.

The last point is Gripen NG, because from the European fighters offers clearly the least ToT, economical, or political advantages. Saab is as depended on other companies, or assistance like we are on LCA. So both must be added as disadvantages for it, not as advantages.

Only Rafale offers advantages in all regards that would be important for us, be it A2A/A2G for IAF and IN, be it economical advantages with parterships, or JV, or even political advantages in strategic terms.

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## sancho

flanker143 said:


> besides being the best jet in the mmrca the eurofighter is coming with the best over all deal...with all those frills and trills ......ef patnership ...ej200 ....etc etc
> 
> *and to make that even better it is now going to be 25% cheaper.....*
> 
> i am eagerly waiting to see IAF insignia on it !!!!



ALL European fighters will be cheaper, not only the EF, because the Euro droped so much!


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## jha

only if calculations were that easy..we will be paying them in euros not in $..as we know in our reserve we have a fair amount of euros ...


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## sancho

Some might already know the results of the exercises of EF, Rafale... last year in the UAE, but here is an excerpt from an aviation magazin report, that adds some more interesting infos:



> *Versatility is not an empty word.*
> 
> Better yet, december 7, *a pair of Rafale which protected a SAR combat device shot down 10 incoming hostile fighters while dropping six AASM on 6 different land targets forty km far* , everything without leaving their CAP racetrack.In addition, the Rafale OSF allowed the positive identification of hostile fighters forty kilometers far. And, December 6, *a MICA has been assigned its target *- indeed virtually destroyed - *only with the SPECTRA system*. SPECTRA which was also capable, twice, to detect and classify - and to propose flight path changes to the pilot to avoid detection-specific envelope - some air defense systems (SA-6) that even the American F-16 CJ specialized in the SEAD mission (suppression of air defense opponents), yet also in flight, were not able to collect.. Certainly, the F-16 CJ in question had not been equipped during the flights with their common SEAD equipment, namely the HTS pod (HARM Targeting System), while their threats library had not been refreshed to integrate some of the air defense radars in the area. SEAD was not their daily mission. But it was not either the case for the Rafale. And yet, the Spectra, with no other equipment than those onboard daily, has done better than the F-16 CJ which, however, are specialized in the SEAD mission. *That's the difference between multirole who need to return to land on its base to switch from one type to another mission and versatility that allows flight operations at the same time in different roles.* It also demonstrates, incidentally, the ability of the AdA to quickly take advantage of "hostile" ground-radar records tunes operated the day before and to integrate them into the rafale SPECTRA library. This allowed the Rafale to classify them without any difficulty. In short, the performance was moderately appreciated by our American allies! Especially since the six F-22 Raptor deployed there by the 27th FW Langley FS/1st proved incapable of giving the beating promised to the Rafale. *Of the six dofights - gun limited -* which pitted the two types of aircraft in the Emirians skies in late 2009, only two saw the virtual destruction of *a Rafale*. *Other meetings were concluded without a winner*. A "performance" for the Rafale against the most modern [and most expensive] fighter in the world, presented as particularly agile thanks to its steering nozzles and moreover stealthy. Because the Rafale was, according to the lieutenant-colonel Grandclaudon, "a serious challenger in matter of maneuverability " And the french pilot to regret that his USAF colleagues had not allowed the simulated employment of MICA missiles during these confrontations.
> 
> *The Typhoon were inferiors.*
> 
> Concurrently, November 16, the Rafale gave, according to the french pilot, a memorable beating to the RAF Typhoon - the most recent version - which were also deployed in the UAE for the ATLC. To put it bluntly, Lieutenant-Colonel Grandclaudon said *the two air battles - battles with IR-guided missile and cannon - which opposed Rafale and Typhoon gave a score of 7 wins for the first and 0 for the second, the only Rafale considered as having been destroyed flew below the allowed flight floor!* Obviously this statement has immediately raised an outcry among British pilots, relayed by the media and the Anglo-Saxon specialized blogosphere, including claims that the Typhoon did not fly as such during the fighting, but simulated "red" attackers, MiG-29 and Su-27 in that case. So, the 1/7 Provence squadron leader made a point to recall that 2 of his Rafale were also"red chest" (MiG-29 index "Charlie") when they shot down 4 "blue" Typhoon - flying as Typhoon - while being reduced to use virtual russians AA-10C missiles to be guided by the Rafale until the impact on their target, which forbade to shoot multiple targets at once . For Fabrice Grandclaudon, the limitations of the "red" plastron role don't prevent a weapons system to show its real capabilities, because the pilots are taking advantage of the real human-machine interfaces and sensors on board, one of the Rafale has benefited from a refresh of its tactical situation by his teammate via Link-16. In other words, even if some of them simluated Su-27, the British pilots virtually shoot down were using the sensors and the avionics of their Typhoon and not those of a Su-27! And the french pilot to recognize, with great sportsmanship, that the Typhoon pilots who had been opposed to the Rafale the week preceding the ATLC were young and relatively inexperienced, as the French already benefits from lessons learned from 3 operational detachments in Afghanistan (one year of presence in all) and 4 of its pilots had participated in Red Flag 2008.
> 
> *Some advantages that make the difference.
> *
> *However, he heavily emphasized the performance of the french system in the field of arms data fusion, from his point of view the main reason of the superiority obtained.* Instead of each sensor to display its studs (aircraft detected) on a specific screen, forcing the Typhoon pilot to operate an intellectual gymnastics , annoying in combat stress, to check if the plot of its corresponding screen of electronic warfare was or was not the one visible on the radar screen or IRST, the Rafale's systems present to the pilot a single plot on a screen, the system automatically compares the plots provided by the various sensors on board and decides if it is or not the same plane. The french pilots have also appreciated the agility of the antenna of the electronic RBE2 radar - The Typhoon has for now only a mechanical antenna - allowing to refresh the situation in the whole volume monitored. But they insist, for close combat, on the perfect controllability of their Rafale, thanks to the excellence of FBW, to the extreme limits of the flight envelope.. To point the nose toward the target and to design it to the weapons system in the absence of a viewfinder-HMD while operating at very low speed. What are not necessarily capable of the main opponents of the Rafale ...
> 
> Well obviously, one should not rejoice in excess. The extremely positive results of these meetings have been obtained in special circumstances. The pilots had been set specific roles by the commander of the COMAO device and were therefore not free to exploit in depth all the potentials of their weapons system. The results have been different perhaps in other circumstances (*nevertheless, some time ago, another meeting between Typhoon and Rafale, in Corsica, was also turned into "massacre" at the expense of the first 8 losses to 0 *). But, simply put, the EC 1 / 7 pilots are particularly satisfied with their stay in UAE. Their demonstration has , aptly, made a strong buzz [noise] among the aviators of the region and troubled the Anglo-Saxons until now convinced of the utter superiority of their planes...




To sum the main points up:

- 2 Rafales shot down 10 enemy fighters, while attacking 6 different ground targets that were up to 40Km away!

- A Rafale shot down a target guided just by its EWS!

- from 6 dogfights with guns only against the F22, 4 went to draw and only 2 Rafale was killed!

- in 2 different exercises the Rafale engaged the EF in 16 air combats, won 15 of if and was shot down only a single time!

Reactions: Like Like:
3


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## flanker143

> ALL European fighters will be cheaper, not only the EF, because the Euro droped so much!



no offends my friend but i never said that 'only' ef is going to be cheaper !


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## Tejas-MkII

sancho said:


> Some might already know the results of the exercises of EF, Rafale... last year in the UAE, but here is an excerpt from an aviation magazin report, that adds some more interesting infos:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To sum the main points up:
> 
> - 2 Rafales shot down 10 enemy fighters, while attacking 6 different ground targets that were up to 40Km away!
> 
> - A Rafale shot down a target guided just by its EWS!
> 
> - from 6 dogfights with guns only against the F22, 4 went to draw and only 2 Rafale was killed!
> 
> - in 2 different exercises the Rafale engaged the EF in 16 air combats, won 15 of if and was shot down only a single time!




I must say, sancho u r the die-hard fan of RAFALE - just like me.


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## flanker143

i am really tired of all this plzz tell which one is the best --eft or rafale ???????


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## KEETARP

Eft if funded or developed , nothing comes closer . 
None of others except Mig35 can come close to flight performance and T/W ratio of Eurofighter .
Problem is its swash-plate AESA / A2G weapons 

Rafle currently is *underpowered* , but still is better multi-role than Eurobird . 
One it has stand-off capability , 
second RBE2 is integrated and tested
but keep in mind Till Meteor enters service Rafale will only fire MICA with max range = 60kms .
While Eurofighter can fire AMRAAM , it's tested and integrated


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## flanker143

will we be able integrate our weapons like astra etc with typhoon ?? same for rafale ??


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## Dash

LT.PRATEEK said:


> Eft if funded or developed , nothing comes closer .
> None of others except Mig35 can come close to flight performance and T/W ratio of Eurofighter .
> Problem is its swash-plate AESA / A2G weapons
> 
> Rafle currently is *underpowered* , but still is better multi-role than Eurobird .
> One it has stand-off capability ,
> second RBE2 is integrated and tested
> but keep in mind Till Meteor enters service Rafale will only fire MICA with max range = 60kms .
> While Eurofighter can fire AMRAAM , it's tested and integrated


But Rafale has an open architecture, cant we integrate R77 in it. Will they allow?


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## KEETARP

Dear flanker 
Yes we can , but who will integrate them and who who will bear the cost . 
If IAF takes it upon itself , cost+expertise is one thing . 
We need software API / Source codes of Radar , Wepaon control computer , Modular central processor etc everything .
In case of Rafale - even SPECTRA is able to provide launch , we need code sequence for them as well . 

And are you ready to provide the source code of your missiles to Foreign Engineers .


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## gogbot

LT.PRATEEK said:


> Eft if funded or developed , nothing comes closer .
> None of others except Mig35 can come close to flight performance and T/W ratio of Eurofighter .
> Problem is its swash-plate AESA / A2G weapons



So the only issue , is funding and developing a plane , that the suppliers want India to be a partner of.

So we choose the Euro-Fighter , we become a partner on the program , Euro-Fighter consortium has access to most European tech 
As long as we have a willingness to buy , all partners including India would pool resources to make the "Indo-fighter" .

Ideally speaking of course.

But this just seem's win-win to me , with the only thing being burnt being money.
May be the MoD can bear some of the cost , to develop our aviation industry. 

Buy planes , become partner , develop plane , get one of the most capable aircraft in the world , as a stake holding supplier.

Am i being naive is this partner thing just eye wash , or can this be done.



LT.PRATEEK said:


> Rafle currently is *underpowered* , but still is better multi-role than Eurobird .
> One it has stand-off capability ,
> second RBE2 is integrated and tested
> but keep in mind Till Meteor enters service Rafale will only fire MICA with max range = 60kms .
> While Eurofighter can fire AMRAAM , it's tested and integrated



IAF has a fit when it come's to underpowered aircraft . The Tejas Mk-I for example.

I don't fancy the Rafale chances now.


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## KEETARP

> But Rafale has an *open architecture*, cant we integrate R77 in it. Will they allow?



Everyone has same architecture , Mil1553std buses . 
First of all Russians would never agree , second we have bear the cost if at all possible to convince Moscow .


----------



## KEETARP

gogbot said:


> So the only issue , is funding and developing a plane , that the suppliers want India to be a partner of.
> 
> So we choose the Euro-Fighter , we become a partner on the program , Euro-Fighter consortium has access to most European tech
> As long as we have a willingness to buy , all partners including India would pool resources to make the "Indo-fighter" .
> 
> Ideally speaking of course.
> 
> But this just seem's win-win to me , with the only thing being burnt being money.
> 
> Buy planes , become partner , develop plane , get one of the most capable aircraft in the world , as a stake holding supplier.
> 
> Am i being naive is this partner thing just eye wash , or can this be done.
> 
> 
> 
> IAF has a fit when it come's to underpowered aircraft . The Tejas Mk-I for example.
> 
> I don't fancy the Rafale chances now.



Time is one thing which Enemy is not giving us , cost if MoD is ready .
why waste 3 years like we did for MKI to develop a customized version .
If they cant see beyond IL-78 to see the benefits of A330 , i doubt money being spent like UAE does .

Mig21,27 have crossed their expiry date / air-frame life is past even date of super-expiry . 
We need numbers and fast replacements as soon as possible . 

With HAL stuck at 8-10 MKI per year , max 8-LCA per year . 
Don't be surprised IAF operating at SQ strength of 25


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## flanker143

> max 8-LCA per year



but hal says building the lca wud take much less time because high &#37;age of composite materials used in it ......

and also lca is much smaller than mki so why such a small rate of production ??

should be near 20 or more


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## KEETARP

flanker143 said:


> but hal says building the lca wud take much less time because high %age of composite materials used in it ......
> 
> and also lca is much smaller than mki so why such a small rate of production ??
> 
> should be near 20 or more



Now since you have brought up those questions , 

Do some google on lines I am giving

What is the role of Alenia ( an Italian Carbon-composite air wing manufacture company) and its export to India.

Where does aviation grade Aluminium comes from

Why there is JV btw India and Russia ( ISRO + DRDO with Russia ) for aviation grade aluminium alloy tech

Get a paid account , and read the full article below 
SpringerLink - Journal Article



> "Laboratory-scale sheet and extrusion products meet tensile property specification of 8090 alloy. One of these semiproducts, i.e. round bar extrusion, is currently being supplied for the stallite programmes. *Commercial-scale sheet products made in Russia under an Indo-Russian joint programme have been made available for the aircraft programme"*



Plz , dont blame me , I am not against LCA . 
Just giving you facts , if you want ignore them


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## gogbot

LT.PRATEEK said:


> Time is one thing which Enemy is not giving us , cost if MoD is ready .
> why waste 3 years like we did for MKI to develop a customized version .



let's take a look at how MKI was inducted



> Early procurement
> In 1996, after 2 years of evaluation and negotiations, India decided to purchase Su-30MKI aircraft. India signed a US$1.462 billion deal with the Sukhoi Corporation on 30 November 1996 for the delivery of 50 Su-30 aircraft. These aircraft were to be delivered in five batches. The first batch were 8 Su-30MKs , the basic version of Su-30. The second batch were to be 10 Su-30Ks with French and Israeli avionics. The third batch were to be 10 Su-30MKIs featuring canard foreplanes. The fourth batch of 12 Su 30MKIs and final batch of 10 Su-30MKIs aircraft all were to have the AL-31FP turbofans. In 2000, another agreement was signed allowing the license production of 140 Su-30MKIs by HAL in India. The deal combined license production with full technology transfer and hence was called a 'Deep License'. The MKI production was planned to be done in four phases: Phase I, II, III and IV respectively.



we can first induct a few Euro-fighters , and when our custom version is ready , start production and induct that as well.

Also keep in mind India has come a long way since the MKI , our capabilities in manufacturing and development are now far ahead , we should take full use of this opportunity.



LT.PRATEEK said:


> If they cant see beyond IL-78 to see the benefits of A330 , i doubt money being spent like UAE does .



That was the finance ministry , and it was only one incident.

Plus , we are talking about long term development and investment not a simple import deal.

I think it will have more support.

Remember we are buying C-17 and C-130J , that will tell you that the above incident is not always the case.



LT.PRATEEK said:


> Mig21,27 have crossed their expiry date / air-frame life is past even date of super-expiry .
> We need numbers and fast replacements as soon as possible .



Agreed , but this can be accomplished numerous ways



LT.PRATEEK said:


> With HAL stuck at 8-10 MKI per year , max 8-LCA per year .
> Don't be surprised IAF operating at SQ strength of 25



I think your being over pessimistic with you numbers ,

we are making more than 10 MKI per year ,

And we should be able to make a squadron of Tejas every 18 months.
i mean one of it's features was to be made in 2/3 rd the time as regular aircraft.


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## flanker143

> I think your being over pessimistic with you numbers ,
> 
> we are making more than 10 MKI per year ,
> 
> And we should be able to make a squadron of Tejas every 18 months.
> i mean one of it's features was to be made in 2/3 rd the time as regular aircraft.


.

thats what i am saying prateek... 
what say in this .....


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## sancho

flanker143 said:


> no offends my friend but i never said that 'only' ef is going to be cheaper !



I didn't mean it offensivly either, just wanted to correct it, because you talked about EF and said:


> and to make that even better *it* is now going to be 25% cheaper.....



That's why I thought you mean only EF.


Tejas-MkII said:


> I must say, sancho u r the die-hard fan of RAFALE - just like me.



 I do like the Rafale, but my main focus is on what is the best for India and there is simply no other fighter that offers so much for us. If the EF would be fully developed, with better A2G weapons and would offer that much side advantages, I would prefer it, or if the Gripen NG would offer more compared to LCA, besides other advantages I would also prefer it. 
We simply must get the most out of this deal, that we can get!

Btw, I just posted it to show that it is not inferior to EF in techs, or A2A capabilities (at least in WVR combats), because many people confused the Rafale just as a strike fighter.


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## KEETARP

GogBot , look at the cost . 
1.42 bill for 50 Su30K , and of which Russians being good friend ,simply replaced first 18 instead of upgrading . 
Compare eurofighter only 18 to be purchased at 120mill a piece. 
They wont replace them ,we have to upgrade them ourselves to save cost . 
Customized version if comes to life will take additional time for our HAL to absorb technology . 

What do you plan , HAL should start with CAPTOR and then shift to CAESAR two years later . 
Samething with Engine , wing modification , launchers once A2G operations are cleared for Eurofighter 



> Remember we are buying C-17 and C-130J , that will tell you that the above incident is not always the case



Two things 
C130 is lone player in field , A400 is far from completion . We had only one option to choose from 
C17 - Again same case , no other competitor 
P8i- no other option , Il38/Tu142 on offer is vintage technology .

Plus , its a political decision to increase exchange with US , even if Boeing shuts c17 plant we are going to order it 



> we are making more than 10 MKI per year


Source plz

Flanker buddy , 
Did you read my last post , did you try to find out what i asked


----------



## flanker143

> Source plz
> 
> Flanker buddy ,
> Did you read my last post , did you try to find out what i asked



sorry plzz post it here !! too lazy too go !!!!!!


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## gogbot

flanker143 said:


> .
> 
> thats what i am saying prateek...
> what say in this .....



Well , i am not to sure what to think I have read up a bit on prateek's points.

And while i can't say much , i will say he wrong about it when it comes to the FBW system , LM stopped its consultation after the 1998 nuke tests .
HAL made the FBW systems alone .

Beyond that , i still don't understand his points.

But as far as i can gather he insinuates to HAL's inability to control the Tejas production line.

We know how much is imported content , and we know HAL work to make the composites and airframe for the Machine themselves .

We already have all the GE-engines , we can get the Israeli processor , what other key equipment


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## KEETARP

flanker143 said:


> sorry plzz post it here !! too lazy too go !!!!!!


  

Here you go - 

Carbon-fibre composite panels for wings come from Alenia iTALY, 
aviation grade Aluminium alloy from Russia .
there is no production line , *we work in Labs to get it completed *. Thats why only few LCA in one year .
It will continue till Production line for atleast 200 LCA is set up , 
when will be that -when IAF is satisfied means when LCA2 is complete . That is 2013 -2015 provided no set-backs . 

HAL itself has said , it wont be possible to go beyond 8 until large order is placed .

GogBot , 
I never said about FBW , nor we are discussing that 
You guys are upto making me do


----------



## sancho

LT.PRATEEK said:


> Eft if funded or developed , nothing comes closer .
> None of others except Mig35 can come close to flight performance and T/W ratio of Eurofighter .
> Problem is its swash-plate AESA / A2G weapons
> 
> Rafle currently is *underpowered* , but still is better multi-role than Eurobird .
> One it has stand-off capability ,
> second RBE2 is integrated and tested
> but keep in mind Till Meteor enters service Rafale will only fire MICA with max range = 60kms .
> While Eurofighter can fire AMRAAM , it's tested and integrated



Hi, I posted the article of the UAE exercise to counter this argument, that some people had (not only you) just because UAE wants a higher thrust engine. The fact that the Rafale was able to proved its manouverability in close combats against 2 of the most manouverable fighters in the world, exactly in the hot conditions of UAE, should make clear that it is not underpowered at all. More power might be useful with heavier loads in such conditions, but in A2A it's obviously not underpowered at all.

Regarding missiles, METEOR is expected to be ready by 2013 and it is clear now that UAE wants it for their Rafales by that time too, so it should be available in 2014/15 for us anyway. But even if not, Astra will be developed till then too and we could integrate it as a cost-effective alternative for MICA EM (that we might have for our Mirage 2000-5s anyway), also Rafale can use AMRAAM too, if an export customer is ready to pay for the integration, but I would prefer MICA IF (or Python V) for short range, Astra for medium (up to 80Km) and METEOR for the long range.

Generally it seems that we can profit from the UAE deal, because they as always wants a more capable version and want to fund many new things. Higher thrust engines, more weapon stations and configs, CFTs, possibly upgrades for FSO and Spectra, integration of SL-AMMER and so on. On the other side, we could have done that too, to team up with Dassault to be an equal partner.


----------



## gogbot

[



LT.PRATEEK said:


> Source plz



I don't have them lying around but i tried my best fight as many as possible.

Sukhoi Su-30 MKI [Flanker] [www.bharat-rakshak.com]



> it was decided that the delivery schedule would be completed within ten years - by 2014 - by increasing the annual rate of production from 10 to 14 aircraft annually. An estimated 920 AL-31FP turbofans are to be manufactured at HAL's Koraput Division, while the mainframe and other accessories are to be manufactured at HAL's Divisions in Lucknow and Hyderabad. Final integration of the aircraft and its test flight are to be carried out at HAL's Nasik Division.



Su-30 FLANKER


> A production rate of 12 aircraft per year over six years would another 72 aircraft, for a total of about 120 aircraft, roughly the 140 aircraft projected in 2006, more or less. In October 2008 Chief of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal, Fali Homi Major assured that a total of 230 of the platforms would join the fleet by 2014, with Hindustan Aeronautical Limited (HAL) trying to speed up licensed production of the aircraft. As of early 2009 India intended to manufacture a minimum of 140 Su-30MKI fighters by 2014 under a Russian license with full technology transfer rights, enough for roughly 8 squadrons, each of 16 combat aircraft and 2 trainers. While a total of 230 aircraft are expected to be in service by the year 2020, HAL would have to increase the annual production rate from 12 aircraft per year to 24 per year, and there is no indication that this ramp up has in fact happened.



The Tribune, Chandigarh, India - Chandigarh Stories



> HAL accelerates Su-30 production
> Vijay Mohan
> Tribune News Service
> 
> Chandigarh, January 16
> Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) has accelerated the production of indigenously assembled Su-30 multi-role aircraft for the IAF. This will result in the Air Force getting more aircraft every year, while cutting down the time to produce the entire Su-30 fleet by three years.
> 
> &#8220;We are increasing our production from eight aircraft per annum to 13 aircraft,&#8221; Managing Director of HAL, Mr K.P. Puri, said. &#8220;The Su-30 production, which was earlier scheduled to finish by 2017-18 will now be over by 2014-15,&#8221; he added.
> 
> He said the Defence Minister had accorded his approval for the accelerated production. The Su-30 are being produced at HAL's Nasik complex, which is the largest production unit among its 16 factories across the country.
> 
> The Su-30 entered service with the IAF in 1997, with 50-odd aircraft being procured directly from Russia and another about 150 aircraft to be built in India by HAL under licence.
> 
> At present, the IAF is operating three Su-30 squadrons -- the 20th, 24th and 30th squadrons. It would be the mainstay of the IAF in the
> coming decades.
> 
> HAL had commenced the indigenous production of the Su-30 in 2004. The first two indigenous aircraft (MKI version) took to the skies in October, 2004, for flight tests and these were handed over to the IAF in March, 2005. The indigenous content in the Su-30 at present is just about 15 per cent and proposed to be increased progressively up to 45 per cent.
> 
> Mr Puri said a project to carry out "block-wise" improvement of the Su-30 was also on the cards. Besides HAL, the Defence Research and Development Orgaisation and Russian firms would be involved in the project. The first meeting in this regard was held on January 6.
> 
> The improvement programme involving aircraft produced in different blocks will result in aircraft having the same configuration and capabilities.
> 
> The first 50 aircraft had some deficiencies that were to be taken care of later.
> 
> HAL would also complete the upgradation of the MiG-21 to the Bison configuration this year. So far 94 MiG-21 have been upgraded and work on the remaining 29 aircraft is in progress.
> 
> As far as the MiG-27 upgrade programme is concerned, Mr Puri said the prototypes had already been certified and the first batch of 12 upgraded MiG-27s would be handed over to the IAF this year.
> 
> Unlike other upgrade programmes, the MiG-27 upgrade is totally indigenous.
> 
> The upgraded MiG-27 have a totally new cockpit, mission control computer and advanced avionics, thereby reducing the pilot's work load significantly.



The Hindu : National : Total indigenisation of Sukhoi next year: HAL



> &#8220;We&#8217;re currently testing the locally produced engine for the Su-30MKI and are planning to launch its production in 2010.&#8221; HAL would manufacture 60 Su-30MKI fighters in the full production cycle till 2015, he said.



60 fighters in 5 years that is 12 fighters a year.


----------



## KEETARP

Sancho , exercise and 1v1 . JetA vs JetB . 
I don't believe even a single line of it , I had a long discussion regarding it in" Mki for France discussion " . 
When you talk off DACT - There are strict Rules of engagement ( ROE) , what cap was put for Eurofighter in terms of AoA and missile range . Only instructors can tell . 
If you put ROE even mig21 beats F15 easily 

Even , i heard 2 euro-fighter smashing 15 - F15 of USAF in Kabul and not loosing even one . Baseless for me 

*For - Flight performance 
I am shamelessly copy-pasting from Paralay , P * 



> Flight Performance:
> # Fighter: EF-2000 / Rafale C
> A. Max. speed, high level: 2.0 Mach + / *1.8 Mach + (* 5)*
> B. *Max. speed, low level: 1.15 Mach / 750 kts*
> C. *Operating altitude: 65,000 fts / 55,000 fts +*
> F. *Climb rate, sea level:> 315 m / sec /> 305 m / sec*
> G. Normal G-limit: -3.0 ~ +9.0 G / -3.2 ~ +9.0 G
> H. *Max. upper G-limit: +12.0 ~ +15.0 G* / 11.0 G +
> I. Normal FCS AoA limit: 33 degrees / 32 degrees (* 6)
> J. Wing-load: 297.0 ~ 300.0 kg/m2 / 281.2 ~ 291.0 kg/m2 (* 7)
> K. T / W ratio for air combat, sea level: 1.22 ~ 1.24 / 1.15 ~ 1.19 with A / B (* 8)
> L. T / W ratio for air combat, sea level: 0.81 ~ 0.83 / 0.77 ~ 0.79 with max. mil. (* 9)
> 
> * 5: The normal upper limit of Rafale's FCS for speed is 1.8 Mach.
> * 6: Once cancelling the normal restriction of FBWs, Rafale's AoA could reach more than 100 degrees. As for EF-2000, I've only heard the information that EF-2000 had performed the maneuver with the AoA> or = 40 degrees during the flight test.
> * 7 and * 8: *EJ-200 already has had the potential to increase 5.5 ~ 10&#37; more A / B thrust, and 15% more Max. A / B thrust during the war time*, while M88-2 hasn't declared such a capability up to now. *Therefore, the difference of T / W ratio between EF-2000 and Rafale C may become much more significant during the war time*.
> * 7 ~ * 9: The fighter's weight for air combat = empty weight + 50% internal fuel + MRAAM * 6 + SRAAM * 2 + pilot and gun shells.


----------



## gogbot

LT.PRATEEK said:


> GogBot , look at the cost .
> 1.42 bill for 50 Su30K , and of which Russians being good friend ,simply replaced first 18 instead of upgrading .
> Compare eurofighter only 18 to be purchased at 120mill a piece.
> They wont replace them ,we have to upgrade them ourselves to save cost .



We know , this is expensive but that is the only downside.

WE don't complain about cost's after choosing the cost intensive path.



LT.PRATEEK said:


> Customized version if comes to life will take additional time for our HAL to absorb technology .
> 
> What do you plan , HAL should start with CAPTOR and then shift to CAESAR two years later .
> Samething with Engine , wing modification , launchers once A2G operations are cleared for Eurofighter



I am sure HAL is up to the challenge , 
Beside's HAL will be a minor partner for the whole process , THe European firms will do most of the work , keeping HAL up to date , with a work share of its won.

Remember it will be 2-3 after selection that the first squadron can be made.

After that all remaining one's are made in India , the European firms can work with HAL which will be partner with a stake. And prepare a customised version in the mean time.

I mean the work has already started CEASER will be standard , IAF wont accept it unless AESA is minimum standard.

I mean come on We are talking about 4 european firms , that want a long term role as a Supplier for the IAF surely they can get it done in time, How much do we even want to change .

Incorporate a few new weapons , Develop a TVC engine that the Firms have already laid the ground work for.

What else upgrades do we need ?



LT.PRATEEK said:


> Two things
> C130 is lone player in field , A400 is far from completion . We had only one option to choose from
> C17 - Again same case , no other competitor
> P8i- no other option , Il38/Tu142 on offer is vintage technology .
> 
> Plus , its a political decision to increase exchange with US , even if Boeing shuts c17 plant we are going to order



MRCA also has political component to it , we all know that .

And if EF is selected then it is a very big political decision.

if indeed it is Euro-fighter , or any other plane no one has the political capital to send back the MRCA to the tender phase.

Imagine the uproar , media dogs and everything. It ain't happening.
Especially with the MIg-21's , no one is gonna mess with the deal.


----------



## sancho

LT.PRATEEK said:


> Sancho , exercise and 1v1 . JetA vs JetB .
> I don't believe even a single line of it , I had a long discussion regarding it in" Mki for France discussion " .
> When you talk off DACT - There are strict Rules of engagement ( ROE) , what cap was put for Eurofighter in terms of AoA and missile range . Only instructors can tell .
> If you put ROE even mig21 beats F15 easily



Agreed about the ROE in exercises, but the combats against F22 were limited to guns only, which means only the maneuverability counts and the performance difference on paper between F22 and Rafale is even much higher, than compared to EF. Still, according to that source Rafale was killed only twice, other sources say even only 1 time and the other combats went to draw and that indeed is impressing performance to me. You can't do that if you don't have a good design and t/w ratio, right?

Btw, I wouldn't even say that the Mig 35 has a better t/w ratio, it has more thrust at the moment, but is also heavier (2 x 90kN @ at least 11t empty) than the Rafale (2 x 75 @ 9t empty). 
If UAE upgrades the M88s to 90kN, or we integrate Kaveri-Snecma engines with 90kN, they will be even superior in this field too. 



LT.PRATEEK said:


> Even , i heard 2 euro-fighter smashing 15 - F15 of USAF in Kabul and not loosing even one . Baseless for me



That indeed is baseless, because not a single EF was ever fielded to Afghanistan!


----------



## KEETARP

^^^^

GogBot , what you are saying shows your inclination and bias towards getting Eurofighter . 

Why wait/spent so much resource and time on incomplete platform , get the tested platform like Gripen/Rafale . 
Save additional amount/ time, for FGFA/MCA . 

Same case applies to Rafale as well , but now they have got UAE to fund . 
India is to gain . 
But time will be important factor when UAE deal gets signed .


----------



## KEETARP

Correction 

Replace Kabul with ***** Air Base, Gran Canaria 



> As per Eurofighter press office, during recent exercises, NATO Air Forces carried out several training combat engagements known as DACT, Dissimilar Aircraft Combat Training, involving different types of aircraft. In this situation, where the air dominance is a matter, the Eurofighter Typhoons turned out to be the leading air-to-air fighter jets.In an interview on the exercise, Major Juan Balesta, the 41-year old Commander of the 111 Squadron stressed that a two-ship formation of Eurofighters involved in a dogfight simulation &#8220;against&#8221; the F-15s enjoyed full control of the engagement. The Typhoons managed to smash a formation of eight F-15s which had the role of the attacker with the first Eurofighter jet managing to &#8220;shoot down&#8221; four F-15 fighter jets. The second Eurofighter managed to disable three F-15 jets. Eventually the pilots were using the Eurofighter Typhoon to full capacity and taking advantage of its enormous capabilities



And F22 vs Rafale , 
rafale only lossing once while F22 more , complete B.S . 
Some French or Rafale Fanbyoz can accept that , no one else in sane mind would . 
I think should call up Gambit to blow of Rafale victory's


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## sancho

LT.PRATEEK said:


> Same case applies to Rafale as well , but now they have got UAE to fund .
> India is to gain .
> But time will be important factor when UAE deal gets signed .



Even without UAE funds, the Rafale is more capable and operational than EF, or Gripen NG (which btw is only available as a prototype so far), it just gets even better.
However, it seems Rafale will sign deals with UAE, Brazil, possibly even Swiss and Kuwait by this year. Our deal is sadly the one that is delayed so much.



LT.PRATEEK said:


> Correction
> 
> Replace Kabul with ***** Air Base, Gran Canaria
> 
> 
> 
> And F22 vs Rafale ,
> rafale only lossing once while F22 more , complete B.S .
> Some French or Rafale Fanbyoz can accept that , no one else in sane mind would .
> I think should call up Gambit to blow of Rafale victory's



Ah that's makes much more sense and regarding F22 combats, these are not rumors, but was confirmed by that French pilot mentioned in the article, in an official press conference of the French airforce.


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## Mani2020

Here is the main difference b/w the current Gripen and the *Gripen NG *saab is offering to India


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## KEETARP

Hi , Mani 

Just to add , there was conference in 
Link&#246;ping, Sweden about Gripen . 

If you missed it i can post some update . 










Below is latest update on Gripen NG 






*They have increased combat load to 7200 Kg
New weapon stations
New landing gear*


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## KEETARP




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## gogbot

LT.PRATEEK said:


> ^^^^
> 
> GogBot , what you are saying shows your inclination and bias towards getting Eurofighter .



Your one to talk , you been going on about the SAAB gripen every chance you get. 

And i only like the Partnership proposal and Ej200 engine , i think in long run by being a partner of the Euro-fighter program we will ensure we have access to and develop our capabilities along European standards.

20,000 jobs to India is significant long term stake.
Alenia Aeronautica, BAE Systems, and EADS. This would represent long term link's with these company's their nations and their air forces.

We will also get to work with engine manufacturers and so on.

But then again is it all feasible i don't know.
But it was a nice thought. 



LT.PRATEEK said:


> Why wait/spent so much resource and time on incomplete platform , get the tested platform like Gripen/Rafale .
> Save additional amount/ time, for FGFA/MCA .
> 
> Same case applies to Rafale as well , but now they have got UAE to fund .
> India is to gain .
> But time will be important factor when UAE deal gets signed .



I am fine with any plane as long as it's from Europe ,

US has to many restrictions and Russia cant deliver on time


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## KEETARP

^ 
 , Agreed .

i am in no mood to write another post .
Euro-fighter is best choice ,


----------



## SpArK




----------



## Iggy

gogbot said:


> I am fine with any plane as long as it's from Europe ,
> 
> US has to many restrictions and Russia cant deliver on time



But Gogbot some of the compoents in Euro and Typhoon is also US made and we always have the risk of facing Seaking type of debacle..


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## Dash

seiko said:


> But Gogbot some of the compoents in Euro and Typhoon is also US made and we always have the risk of facing Seaking type of debacle..


Brother Seiko -

We just had a looooooooong debate on this, iam waiting for Gogbots response. I stopped a while ago.....

To Gogbot..

Comon Gogy, you can do it again!!!-))...


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## sancho

seiko said:


> But Gogbot some of the compoents in Euro and Typhoon is also US made and we always have the risk of facing Seaking type of debacle..



On EF, mainly weapons, the main techs like engine, radar, or avionics are developed in Europe, but of course can include minor US parts too. 
The clear advantage EF and Rafale can offer over other competitiors is ToT, nobody else (except Mig 35 from Russian tech of course) can, or will provide that much. And as Gogbot said, we have a good experience with European jets, helicopters, subs, as well as JV and partnerships with their companies, while US is a new player and is still the main ally of Pakistan. I also think that it is too early to rely big parts of the forces so much on the US (IN - P8I, engines for naval vessels, IAF - engines for LCA MK1 and possibly 2, engines for upgraded Jaguars...), new sanctions would hit them very badly and makes India vulnerable!

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## sancho

Not directly MMRCA related, but still interesting!



> *The Rafale in Abu Dhabi will be expensive for Paris
> La Tribune , June 15*
> 
> 
> The cost of developing the modernized fighter aircraft according to UAE wishes would be 4-5 billion euros.
> 
> The sale of 60 Rafale United Arab Emirates (UAE) is likely to be costly to France. If Paris acceed to all the wishes of Abu Dhabi, the cost of developing the modernized fighter aircraft would reach, according to several sources, between 4 and 5 billion euros, some people felt closer to 5 billion. With slightly more than 1 billion for the engine to move from 7.5 to 9 pounds of thrust, at the request of Abu Dhabi. [...]
> 
> To date, manufacturers and Gov. did not despair to persuade Abu Dhabi to reduce the bill, including revising downward their wishes. However, work on the specifications of the aircraft is almost complete, one says to "La Tribune". "We keep the schedule, the pace of negotiations is steady," . Because Abu Dhabi has put all its purchase teams from the Department of Defense on this issue, a priority since the beginning of the year. So, *Paris and Abu Dhabi could conclude the sale of the rafale itself before the end of July*. Currently, both parties begin to discuss the financial aspect.
> 
> Serious lead in Qatar
> 
> Who will pay? The UAE will finance a part of these developments. "at best the client will pay only half " one says to "La Tribune". "The remainder will be paid by the Ministry of Defence and the industrialists who will share in proportion to their participation (Dassault Aviation 37.5%, Thales 37.5% and Safran 25%). According to our information, the Ministry of Defense will anticipate developments planned later in the current law on military programming (LPM) to modernize the Rafale for the air force and naval aviation. The aim is to bring the aircraft to the F4 standard in 2015-2020, whereas currently the Rafale is now moving to F3. "Some applications for UAE match developments which are a part of the LPM. We merely advances a number of projects," one says at the ministry. But to date, future specifications of the Rafale for the AdA are not yet fixed.
> 
> Last section of the folder, the resale of UAE Mirage 2000-9. A very sensitive issue in the UAE, which do not want that Paris sees to it. *According to reports, Abu Dhabi and Qatar have done, with the benevolence of France, a joint proposal to sell their 72 Mirage 2000 (60 for UAE and 12 for Qatar) to India.* This would open a serious lead for the Rafale in the very francophile Qatar . Nicolas Sarkozy had praised the qualities of the aircraft to the Emir of Qatar at the Elysee Palace this year. *India could therefore find themselves at the head of a fleet of more than 120 cheap and efficient Mirage, counting the 51 Mirage 2000 it already has, to be upgraded by Thales and Dassault Aviation, finally convinced. This led some to say that India could then take his time to manage the call for tenders for 127 new generation aircraft it has launched*


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## KEETARP

Sancho 
Is it one year old or latest article ? ? ?. 
Interesting , and Mirage was the original choice that IAF always wanted .


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## Hindustan Fighter

sancho said:


> Not directly MMRCA related, but still interesting!



But the question is will India be interested in buying further 70 odd fighters along with 126 MMRCA in near future. 
Although i personally feel that buying these m2000-9 will be good choice even if they cost around 40 $ mn/unit. 
If the mig 21 continue to crash at the current rate then India might be forced to ground its mig 21 non-bison (about 150 ) as early as next year then they might think of this option( if available)


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## flanker143

currently how many mig 21's are with IAF ?


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## sancho

LT.PRATEEK said:


> Sancho
> Is it one year old or latest article ? ? ?.
> Interesting , and Mirage was the original choice that IAF always wanted .



A latest:



> The Rafale in Abu Dhabi will be expensive for Paris
> *La Tribune , June 15*



Yes Mirage was the original choice, but MoD seems to want more, also we asked Quatar for their M2ks before, but they wanted a way to high price for them, so why should this be different now?
Personally, I thought to buy the UAE M2k-9, instead the upgrade of our M2ks would be a good idea. Half of them are pretty new and it is known that these are upgraded with techs and weapons that not even the M2Ks of French forces had.
However, the focus of IAF/MoD now is on 4.5 gen fighters with AESA radars, that's why I doubt they will go for the M2Ks now. Brazil could be a possible buyer too, combined with the Rafale deal.



Hindustan Fighter said:


> If the mig 21 continue to crash at the current rate then India might be forced to ground its mig 21 non-bison (about 150 ) as early as next year then they might think of this option( if available)



The problem is, we can't get those M2Ks right away, for every squad of Rafale those countries gets, they would send a squad M2Ks to us, so it will need time too.


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## Hindustan Fighter

flanker143 said:


> currently how many mig 21's are with IAF ?



250 at least not sure about the exact figure


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## Dash

> With slightly more than 1 billion for the engine to move from 7.5 to 9 pounds of thrust, at the request of Abu Dhabi.



I see some interesting equation here.
1. For all we know that French are helping us to improve the Kaveri Engine, which will come to same thurst.

2. Will Rafale actually with UAE invest another 1 billion to make another type of engine. They can use Kaveri if its proved to be succesful. What could be the best choice at this time that India-UAE-France investing on something like Kaveri to make it F4 engine!!!!....

3. If this can somehow get to drawing board then rafale will have an even get into a partnership, Now you share the profit incurred by the engines developed.? Possible??...

4. This will lead Rafale to make an even stronger pitch. Earlier we were seeing it as a bilateral partnership, it can be trilateral and also it will have monetary benifts.

5. I mean french already said they can fit Kaveri to Rafale so fit it to UAE Rafales will not be a problem....

Prateek/Sancho/Gogbot...any comments???


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## gogbot

seiko said:


> But Gogbot some of the compoents in Euro and Typhoon is also US made and we always have the risk of facing Seaking type of debacle..



US won't be so petty , 

first
US is currently trying to gain Indian trust , they will be more then willing in the short term.

second 
IF US can't even be a safe 3rd party supplier , then they may close them selves of from the Indian defence market.

third
We Already have more direct deal's with the US , it won't make a difference at this point. to consider those kinds of scenario's

fourth 
by not supplying parts to India they also risk alienation of their allies in Europe. The US would be going over their heads to compromise one of their deals and upset their customer , they end economic loser will be them, that's why any Move like that from the US , would do more harm them good.

fifth
US know's by showing it can be a reliable 3rd part supplier , it will help put aside out fears and improve their chances for future bids.

Of course there is always the risk , but that's to be expected with any import , the only way we can ever truly guarantee supplies is to make our own.

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## Dash

> Yes Mirage was the original choice, but MoD seems to want more, also we asked Quatar for their M2ks before, but they wanted a way to high price for them, so why should this be different now?
> Personally, I thought to buy the UAE M2k-9, instead the upgrade of our M2ks would be a good idea. Half of them are pretty new and it is known that these are upgraded with techs and weapons that not even the M2Ks of French forces had.



Sancho - I was actually against this deal of buying Mirages from UAE. Now I have written post above and what if we buy these Mirages, we just retire some Mig21s, I mean this morning we had a crash. 

I will save some lives and I will help IAF in keeping the squadron strength alive. We are in talks with Russia for some 46(I guess) Su-30 MKIs. 

IF we just buy these we can first cater to the above needs and second be a better friend to UAE and invite them to use the Kaveri Engine, which France is developing for us. We all can invest money in this engine. Who knows this work out to be a different game all togather??...


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## sancho

Dash said:


> I see some interesting equation here.
> 1. For all we know that French are helping us to improve the Kaveri Engine, which will come to same thurst.
> 
> 2. Will Rafale actually with UAE invest another 1 billion to make another type of engine. They can use Kaveri if its proved to be succesful. What could be the best choice at this time that India-UAE-France investing on something like Kaveri to make it F4 engine!!!!....
> 
> 3. If this can somehow get to drawing board then rafale will have an even get into a partnership, Now you share the profit incurred by the engines developed.? Possible??...
> 
> 4. This will lead Rafale to make an even stronger pitch. Earlier we were seeing it as a bilateral partnership, it can be trilateral and also it will have monetary benifts.
> 
> 5. I mean french already said they can fit Kaveri to Rafale so fit it to UAE Rafales will not be a problem....
> 
> Prateek/Sancho/Gogbot...any comments???



Hi Dash, the Kaveri-Snecma engine is likely to benefit from exactly this M88-3 engine, some sources say it will use the same core.
Regarding Kaveri-Snecma engine for Rafale, I said this often too, imo there is a big chance for a Dassault - HAL (France - India) partnership, where everybody can benefit.

Consider export Rafales F3/F4 and LCA MK2 with the same following configs:

Engine - Kaveri-Snecma with 90kN thrust
Radar - RBE 2 AESA
IRST - co-developed FSO-IT (new version of the FSO which is not funded yet)
Avionics - EWS would be different (Mayavi and Spectra), but HMS could be Topsight I (JV between Thales and Samtel) and the Damocles pod
Weapons - Mica IF/Astra (cheaper and most likely longer range than Mica EM)/Meteor missiles, for short, medium and long ranges.
AASM and Indian LGB comparable to US JDAM and Paveway kits
Exocet anti-ship and Helina for the anti-tank role

Both fighters would offer a cost-effective high/low combination for any export country, with high commonality and a win-win solution for France and India!

We could be the perfect partner for exports with a high number of Rafales on order too, but it seems we miss this big chance, because everything takes way too long.


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## sancho

LT.PRATEEK said:


> Below is latest update on Gripen NG
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They have increased combat load to 7200 Kg





Hi Prateek, did you realised that the cost per flight hour increased now, compared to what they offered us before?




I guess they gave only estimations based on the normal Gripens to us, because the NG is only under development and not operational yet. That's why several things can still change, be it good, or bad. Just like all the nice and really impressing weapon configs, but none of them are reality now, because all these multi pylons are not integrated (developed?).


P.S. Just got a confirmation from an German Luftwaffe pilot, that all EFs are still limited to Paveway II (UK EFs also Enhanced Paveway II) in A2G and not a single A2G missile is operational, or in testing yet. He said there are test dummies that could be attached to the EF on the ground, but life test (be it flight, or drops) are not possible. If there was an evaluation team in Europe, that saw a Brimstone/Storm Shadow test, it must have been on another fighter, possibly Tornados, but not an EF and most likely not in Germany.


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## Dash

Yes I agree...



> Both fighters would offer a cost-effective high/low combination for any export country, with high commonality and a win-win solution for France and India!
> 
> We could be the perfect partner for exports with a high number of Rafales on order too, but it seems we miss this big chance, because everything takes way too long.



Good that we went for the tender process. It has great advantages to arrive at what IAF is looking for. Like Prateek said attack capability and Life cycle cost.

But my question why there is another M88 engine developement with UAE when you already have partenered with India to make an engine which can go to LCA. You are actually not diversifyingthe funds but spending unwisely. We should pitch in here btn UAE and France to convince them to invest on Kaveri engine..and use the same engine in F4 Rafale!!!....

The above picture you gave on Rafale and LCA is really a promising one.
Even if you use Elta Radar in LCA or our home grown RADAR with Israel/France who ever will still be a punch.


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## sancho

Dash said:


> Yes I agree...
> 
> 
> 
> Good that we went for the tender process. It has great advantages to arrive at what IAF is looking for. Like Prateek said attack capability and Life cycle cost.
> 
> *But my question why there is another M88 engine developement with UAE when you already have partenered with India to make an engine which can go to LCA.* You are actually not diversifyingthe funds but spending unwisely. We should pitch in here btn UAE and France to convince them to invest on Kaveri engine..and use the same engine in F4 Rafale!!!....
> 
> The above picture you gave on Rafale and LCA is really a promising one.
> Even if you use Elta Radar in LCA or our home grown RADAR with Israel/France who ever will still be a punch.



Hi Dash, MoD is interested in Kaveri-Snecma co-development again, but if I'm not wrong nothing is signed yet. Also the integration into Rafale, or later possibilities to offer it for exports, will only be possible if Rafale wins MMRCA, but there's a long way to go for it. UAE instead wants Rafale, is more or less ready to fund half of the M88-3 development and that all as soon as possible, not so slow like things goes in India. So if you are French and have the choice to fund half of the upgrade of your own engine for Rafale, or co-develop a foreign engine and integrate it, what would you do?
That's why I said, imo we are missing a big chance here, not only because of Kaveri engine and LCA, but also to be an equal partner of the Rafale.


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## Dash

> That's why I said, imo we are missing a big chance here, not only because of Kaveri engine and LCA, but also to be an equal partner of the Rafale.



Indeed, no doubt..


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## flanker143

is the eurofighter s's captor aesa ready ??

what are its specs ??


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## sancho

flanker143 said:


> is the eurofighter s's captor aesa ready ??
> 
> what are its specs ??


No, just in the early testing stage, they didn't even fixed how it should look like (swashplate, or fixed AESA), given the good performance of the normal Captor and the good diameter of the EF nose (it is speculated with 1400 T/R modules), we can expect much.


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## Tejas-MkII

Snecma

First test flight of Rafale fighter powered by upgraded M88-4E engine
Courcouronnes, May 4, 2010.

The first test flight of a Rafale fighter powered by the Snecma (Safran group) M88-4E engine (formerly designated the &#8220;TCO Pack&#8221;, for total cost of ownership) took place on March 22 at the Istres air base in southern France. Lasting 1 hour and 30 minutes, the flight was a total success, and was used to expand the flight envelope. The complete test campaign for the M88-4E engine comprises some 70 flights in 2010, with different engine configurations. Ten test flights have been carried out to date.

*&#8220;We are satisfied with the successful initial flights of the M88-4E, the third major engine upgrade, reflecting our continuing focus on research & development. The latest evolution of the engine enables us to better meet the expectations of our customer, by helping decrease the Rafale&#8217;s maintenance costs,&#8221;* said Didier Desnoyer, Snecma&#8217;s Vice President Military Engines.

*The development of the M88-4E is proceeding very satisfactorily. The first ground test of the engine was performed in September 2009. Development engines are now undergoing ground performance and endurance tests, and a series of altitude chamber tests was completed in late February. Qualification and delivery of the first production-standard M88-4E is now slated for the end of 2011.*

In January 2008, French defense procurement agency DGA awarded Snecma the &#8220;TCO Pack&#8221; contract for the M88-2 engine. The aim of this contract was to extend the service life and time between inspections for several parts of the engine. Modifications mainly concern the high-pressure compressor and turbine.

Designed for the Rafale multirole fighter, the M88 is the first member of a family of new-generation engines intended for 21st century combat and advanced training aircraft. The M88-2 now powers all air force and naval versions of the Rafale. It is particularly well suited to low-altitude penetration and high-altitude interception missions.

Snecma, a Safran group company, is one of the world&#8217;s leading manufacturers of aircraft and space engines, with a wide range of propulsion systems on offer. The company designs and builds commercial aircraft engines &#8211; including the CFM56* world&#8217;s leader - that are powerful, reliable, economical and environmentally friendly, along with military aircraft engines that have always delivered world-class performance. Snecma also develops and produces propulsion systems and equipment for launch vehicles and satellites. Snecma also offers a complete range of engine maintenance, repair and overhaul (MRO) services to airlines, armed forces and operators. 
* CFM56 engines are produced and marketed by CFM International, a 50/50 joint company between General Electric and Snecma.


PS: Does anybody have any information about this engine,like thrust,dimensions,etc..


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## sancho

Tejas-MkII said:


> Snecma
> 
> First test flight of Rafale fighter powered by upgraded* M88-4E* engine
> Courcouronnes, May 4, 2010.
> 
> The first test flight of a Rafale fighter powered by the Snecma (Safran group) M88-4E engine (formerly designated the TCO Pack, for total cost of ownership) took place on March 22 at the Istres air base in southern France. Lasting 1 hour and 30 minutes, the flight was a total success, and was used to expand the flight envelope. The complete test campaign for the M88-4E engine comprises some 70 flights in 2010, with different engine configurations. Ten test flights have been carried out to date...
> 
> PS: Does anybody have any information about this engine,like thrust,dimensions,etc..



Found this in another forum:



> M88 Developements for Domestic and Export markets:
> 
> First the main developement was destined to the domestic market (MN/AdA) with the steps taken by SNECMA from M88-2E1 to M88-2E4.
> 
> FROM Standard M88-2 to M88-2E4 developed from <> 1995.
> 
> New:
> 
> ----Three-dimensional high-pressure (HP) compressor.
> ----Turbine blades.
> ----Blisks (one-piece blades and discs).
> ----Improved thermal coatings on the HP turbine.
> ----Advanced cooling channels for the combustion chamber.
> 
> Noticeable technological progresses:
> 
> TURBINE BLADE LIFE AUGMENTED BY A FACTOR OF THREE.
> 
> BLISKS.
> 
> TOLERANCE TO HIGHER TEMPERATURES.
> 
> SFC LOWERED BY UP TO 4% COMPARED TO M88-2-Evolution1.
> 
> ---->
> 
> FROM Standard M88-2E4 to M88-3.
> 
> New:
> 
> ----LP compressor.
> ----Variable stator vane stage.
> 
> ---->
> 
> FROM M88-3 to M88 ECO.
> 
> ----HP corps.
> ----Combustion chamber.
> 
> ---->
> 
> *M88-3 VS M88 ECO.
> 
> Diameter:--------- 790mm 31.1-in VS 700mm 27.56-in.
> Length:----------- 3.6 m 12-ft VS 3.5 m 12-ft.
> Weight:----------- 985 kg 2,172-lb VS 897 kg 1,978-lb.
> Thrust:----------- 89.9 kN 20,250-lb VS 75.5 kN 17,000-lb.*
> 
> According to these figures:
> 
> M88-3 diameter is <> 90mm superior, it is 100mm longer and 88 Kg heavier than M88-2; this would add 176 Kg to Rafale away from CG.



So M88-4E = M88ECO


----------



## sudhir007



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## sudhir007

F/A-18 as good as 5th gen: US Navy | StratPost

The US Navy has compared the Boeing F/A-18 Super Hornet to fifth generation fighter aircraft, making a strong pitch for its selection in the 126 Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) contest of the Indian Air Force (IAF).

A chart illustrating Commander Goska's point.
In presentations made last month to Indian journalists visiting the Naval Air Station, Oceana at Norfolk in Virginia, also the largest naval base in the world, Commander Mike Goska of the US Navy, compared the fighter to fifth generation combat aircraft like the F-35 and the F-22 and indicated that the US Navy plans for the F-35 to complement the Super Hornet.

The F-35 JSF is to complement US Navy Super Hornets.

Dr. Vivek Lall, Vice President and India Country Head, Boeing Defense, Space and Security, explains, &#8220;Many of the same technologies are common across all three of these next-generation fighters, and the Super Hornet is available today.&#8221;

According to Goska, the US Navy intends to keep the aircraft in service beyond 2035. Indeed, the US Navy is currently in the process of placing an order for 124 F/A-18 Super Hornets, at a price that a Reuters report says would come to around US $5.3 billion in a multi-year deal with each aircraft coming to around US $40 million, not including US $10 million for &#8216;government-furnished equipment&#8217;, less than the price of US $ 57 million listed on a US Navy website.

But even though the size of the buy is similar, with the US Navy&#8217;s 124 to the IAF MMRCA&#8217;s 126, Boeing officials are unable to indicate whether this figure could be taken as an indicator of the price tag for India in the event of the aircraft winning the Indian contest, even as they failed to confirm the prices indicated for the US Navy in the report.

In the event of the Super Hornet becoming the MMRCA, the ensuing contract would be an FMS (Foreign Military Sale) between India and the United States, which would also provide the IAF the benefits of economies of scale. &#8220;Under the FMS system, the US DoD (Department of Defense) is committed to procuring FMS defense articles and services under the same contractual provisions used for its own procurements. This system is designed to acquire the required quality items at the lowest feasible price from qualified sources and to provide for contract administration. FMS and DoD orders are often consolidated to obtain economy-of-scale buys and therefore lower unit prices,&#8221; says Lall.

&#8220;Under the FMS system, the foreign purchaser is charged a nominal fee for the contracting and administrative services provided by DoD. This fee is currently 3.8 per cent of the value of the contract and ensures that the DoD does not make a profit or take a loss on a Foreign Military Sale,&#8221; he adds.

If the actual sale price is lower than than the estimate made in the Letter of Acceptance, then the unspent money would be returned to India as the US government is not allowed to make a profit on an FMS deal.


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## gogbot

^^^^^^^^^

this seems to be mis-guided response to a similar and a slightly more accurate claim by Euro Fighter


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## sancho

gogbot said:


> ^^^^^^^^^
> 
> this seems to be mis-guided response to a similar and a slightly more accurate claim by Euro Fighter



Both, Boeing and the EF consortium are trying their best to sell their fighters, because they know with every year 5. gen fighters are closer to arrive, especially for India (Pak Fa/FGFA, MCA and even F35 is an option). So don't take their PR reports too seriously.


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## Imran Khan

koi faisla hoa bhai ??????? lagta hai 2020 tak time lagy ga is kam ko

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## sancho

This time the aviation magazin Air & Cosmos is reporting about the exercise in UAE (called ATLC):



> *Duels over the sands
> Air&Cosmos , June 2010*
> 
> 
> Saint-Dizier, November 8, 2009. a first wave of 3 Rafale from the 1 / 7 "Provence" squadron is leaving Haute-Marne for much more desert horizons. Heading to the United Arab Emirates (UAE) and the Al Dhafra air base, to an exercise that any fighter pilot in the world would not want to miss, the Advanced Tactical Leadership Course (ATLC), organized annually by the UAE.
> In total, 6 Rafale of the 1/7, in 2 waves of 3 aircrafts, join the UAE base in autumn 2009. They are accompanied by 15 pilots, with different backgrounds and experiences. All have the opportunity to come and train on an extraordinary playground: 3 times larger than the Red Flag "range", the Air Warfare Centre (AWC) was established in 2000 for Gulf countries and their key allies such as the United States, Britain and France, as well as other nations invited each year. The UAE AWC also has the latest equipment in the field of debrief missions, allowing very precise debriefing at the end of each mission.
> In 2009, the Rafale participate ATLC for the first time. But another special guest shares the bill : the US F-22A Raptor, the U.S. Air Force has dispatched 6 aircraft attached to the 27th Fighter Squadron, based in Langley AFB.
> Designed in the early 90s, the American fighter is the most modern fighter in service today. It combines extraordinary aerodynamic performance with a very large stealth, but also a weapon system built around a powerful AESA radar and passive sensors whose operation is similar in principle to those of Spectra. Tailored for high-altitude interception and BVR Combat, the Raptor knows how to defend itself in dogfight: it has a thrust vector that guides the air flow of its two reactors in the vertical plan, with overflow maneuverability in all phases of flight. On paper, the F-22A Raptor and the Rafale have not much in common. While the U.S. aircraft (the most expensive fighter in the world) was designed as the ultimate fighter aircraft, the french jet is a versatile and "affordable" combat aircraft. Both are not even competing on the international market because Washington refuses to export the Raptor, which must remain the "secret US boot" during an aerial war of high intensity.
> The 2009 ATLC release will be the pretext of the first confrontation between the two aircraft ...
> 
> *One defeat for five draws.*
> 
> *The U.S. Air Force, however, put strict conditions surrounding the confrontation: the Raptor will not participate in any BVR exercise with foreign aircraft. The American pilots only accept to confront in dogfight, 1 vs 1, against crews that participate in the exercise. Pilots of the 1/7 take their chance ... and the results will be rather promising: on 6 engagements, only one has resulted, according to the French aviators, with a straightforward victory for the F-22A. The other 5 have ended with a 'draw'* ,a situation of equality that can be obtained by various parameters: Dual protracted beyond a preset time,crossing of the floor set for the exercice ...
> 2 main parameters give the advantage to the Raptor in dogfight: the thrust vector and the enormous power conferred by its 2 reactors, which give each twice the thrust of the M88! Although it is much heavier than the Rafale, the F22A maintains a formidable manceuvrability that allows it to leave the most delicate BFM situations; even if it loses a lot of energy during maneuvers with the highest angle of attack, this energy can be quickly recovered by its engines.
> But the french pilots are careful to qualify the Raptor as invulnerable: "Facing an F-22A, the Rafale can be put in firing position but it must do it very quickly, lest the roles reversed if the battle drags on" summarizes a French aviator.
> [...]




*Stealth but not invisible: ATLC screenshots of the F-22A seen through the Rafale FSO
*

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## sancho

Exercise in Corsica:



> *Enemy Brothers
> Air&Cosmos - June 2010
> *
> 
> Since birth, both were scheduled to compete. The wrestling (commercial) which has now engaged the Eurofighter Typhoon and the Rafale on the international scene has its roots in the early 80s, while Europe is seriously considering a joint development of a new multinational European fighter aircraft. France, United Kingdom and Germany are the main actors in a drama that will last many years. These last two countries, which have already collaborated in the Panavia consortium for the development of the Tornado are looking to replace a portion of their tactical fleet. For its part, France is trying, too, to have a fighter that can replace almost all of its combat aircraft. But from the beginning, the situation appears complex, whereas the English call for an air superiority aircraft class 11-12 tonnes, Paris argues for a device of only 9 tons. Moreover, the problems of industrial shares weigh down the prospects of cooperation including France, whose aeronautical companies ardently defend their plans to support the maintenance of their skills. In 1985, France announced it will develop alone its future combat aircraft. For their part, the United Kingdom, Germany, Italy and Spain will start the Eurofighter program. While France wants to start building a really multirole aircraft, the nations in the Eurofighter consortium finance the development of a superiority aircraft, designed for air to air combat. To date yet, the 'Typhoon has only very limited air-ground capabilities compared with the Rafale.
> 
> *More thrust for the Typhoon *
> 
> On paper, the Typhoon has some undeniable advantages: more powerful than M88, its two reactors conferred it a better weight/thrust than the Rafale. According to the Eurofighter pilots, this additional power would be particularly appreciable during simulated combat below 20,000 ft, where the density of air allows the engines to be fully expressed. In the battle beyond visual range (BVR), the Typhoon also has an greater "extension" than the Rafale. This is because of the the physical characteristics of the radar, which antenna "sees" futher than the RBE2-PESA, but also because of the dynamic performance of the American missile AIM-120 AMRAAM . Designed exclusively for intercepting medium-range, it certainly does not have the versatility of the Mica, but it is superior in terms of range. Facing a Rafale, these theoretical advantages, however, must be nuanced.
> *In BVR combat, although the lengthening of the radar and missiles of the Typhoon are superior, the french Rafale fighter's radar signature is, according to many pilots, much less important than the Eurofighter's one. It is therefore an asset. Even better: the sensors fusion which enjoys the Rafale is also a crucial advantage in BVR combat, because it offers the pilots a much better understanding of the tactical situation during combat, and this, 360 degrees around the aircraft. *
> Once the "merge" is reached (when BVR combat turns into short-range), the Rafale has still strong chances of victory against the Typhoon. *In the opinion of French pilots who have confronted the European aircraft, it's above all the quality of the electric flight controls [FBW] of the French fighter who makes the difference.* In dogfight, Rafale can quickly point its nose to the threat, while less degrading its energy than the Eurofighter does. And this partly because the maximum angle of attack of the Rafale is "clamped" around 300, which allows it to evolve in a controlled manner even at low speed.
> This difference in terms of maneuverability is also illustrated by the position of the canard on the two planes: placed well in front of the fuselage on the Typhoon, they play the role of an additional control surface used to "steer" more quickly the nose of the plane to take the incidence.
> Conversely, the Rafale ducks are located very near the delta wing and are used primarily to pick up the airflow to slow up the loss of lift on the wing, thus giving the pilot a full control of the aircraft at low speeds.
> 
> *A first indisputable skirmish*
> 
> The Arm&#233;e de l' Air has been able to experience this superiority in dogfight in September 2009, during an exercise organized by the French and British headquarters, during a deployment on the Solenzara airbase in Corsica . Few days , the EC-1/7 stands next with the Royal Air Force transformation squadron on typhoons.
> The English have thought of everything, and introduce to the French pilots the simulated engagement patterns they wish to practice facing the Rafale. The French pilots push back a smile: the conditions of the exercice are, on paper, custom-made for the Typhoons and plan within visual range fights , 1 vs 1, under 20,000 ft and 350 knots. Whatever. The 'Provence' squadron takes up the gauntlet ... The 2 planes take off, then meet up at 18 000 ft to start the exercise. The aircraft are flying on the same trajectory with about 2 km of lateral separation. "Turn Away" with this announcement, the pilots turn 45 &#176; outward, to move away from each other. A few seconds later, the "turn in" and the planes turn toward each other to meet face-to-face in the sky. Once both aircraft is within visual range , its the ultimate ad: "Fight's on!". The first skirmish is indisputable. *It need less than 40 seconds and only 3 crossing for the Rafale pilot to have its gun in firing position.* However, the pilots flying the two planes are far from beginners. While the English is considered a Typhoon specialist in air to air , the "Provence" pilot has also a solid experience in within visual range combat.
> 
> *Nine wins, one defeat *
> 
> This initial result is not a fluke: the two next passes end also to the advantage of the Rafale. *In total, 4 different engagements will take place in Corsica, for a total of 9 wins against 1 defeat for the french fighter.* A nice demonstration of force that inspires the pilots the following moral: without mastery, power is nothing ... It is however an area where the Typhoon is victorious: the one of exports. While the Rafale is still looking for a first client, the Typhoon has already been sold to Saudi Arabia and Austria, and remains opposed to the Rafale in Switzerland and India.




*A typhoon in trouble*


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## ejaz007

*Defence companies race to win $12bn Indian Air Force contract*

** European Aeronautic Defence and Space Company denies shifting of operations to India a move to win the contract 
* IAF to acquire 18 jets in read-to-fly condition, remaining 118 to be manufactured by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited under technology transfer *
By Iftikhar Gilani

NEW DELHI: Weapon manufacturers across the globe are devising innovative methods to win the $12 billion contract for supplying 126 multi-role fighter jets to the Indian Air Force (IAF). 

While American aerospace giant Lockheed Martin is assuring that it would provide more advanced F-16IN fighters to India than Pakistan, European Aeronautic Defence and Space Company NV (EADS) has taken the lead by planning to shift some components of their company to India.

The development projects of the advanced fourth generation Eurofighter Typhoon would generate 20,000 jobs in India. In turn, the recession hit EADS is expecting cheap labour and also expects the move to influence Indian leaders politically, as well as emotionally to award the multi-billion contract to the European company. 

Representatives of the other contenders  Mikoan of Russia with their MiG-35 aircraft, the Dassault Aviation of France with the Rafele, the JAS 39 Gripen from the Saab company of Sweden and the F/A-18 Super Hornet from Boeing  are also leaving no stone unturned to procure the contract.

Interest: EADS has denied that its shifting of operations to India was linked to trying to win the multi-billion contract, saying it was only interested in procuring cheap, technical manpower.

But analysts say the move was aimed to put indirect pressure on the government to award this contract and even future contracts to the company. No government, after this move, will be in a position to compromise on the future of 20,000 of its citizens who would be employed by the company, said an analyst.

We will transfer some of our development projects, which we have in Europe for the Eurofighter or other military aircraft, to India, where we have set up a military research and development centre in Bangalore, EADS Defence and Security Chief Executive Stefan Zoller told Indian journalists in Bonn recently.

Asserting that the consortiums research and defence (R&D) activities were independent of its bid for the 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) for the IAF, Zoller said leveraging the high-skilled Indian talent and the potential of the emerging Indian aerospace industry would lead to developing new technologies and creation of jobs.

If we win the IAF order, the development of newer versions of the Typhoon for India and the global market will result in the creation of about 20,000 direct jobs, as the bid involves the winner re-investing 50 percent of the deal in Indias defence manufacturing industry, Zoller said.

Technology transfer: The IAF plans to acquire 18 of the jet fighters in ready-to-fly condition, with the remaining 118 being manufactured by the Indian defence company Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) under technology transfer and licensed production, to replace its ageing Russian MiG-21 fleet and enhance its strike capability.

We will transfer 60 percent of the Eurofighter technology to India if Typhoon wins the bid. Our long-term strategy is to partner with the Indian aerospace industry for our global market, as we consider the Indian talent and resources as an ideal source for developing newer technologies, Zoller said.

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan


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## flanker143

to me both EU jets provide more or less the same performance ......

as far as rafale's thrust is concerned .... i had read somewhere that france has offered india to integrate its kaveri engines in rafale....

and considering the fact that mmrca is aint coming any soon .......we got alot of time to make our kaveri engines perform better (m88-kaveri hybrid)


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## anathema

For all those who havent seen....F16 Block 60 simulator...excellent vid and gives a brief understanding of how a cockpit functions....Enjoy...its ultra cool..


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## anathema

Typhoon's simulator....this is damn impressive....and probably the most user friendly of them all...i love the lady in the cockpit screaming...pull up ! pull up !! Enjoy...


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## Agnostic_Indian

I support anything other than american.You know the reason..


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## flanker143

> I support anything other than american.You know the reason..



TOT problem ????..i think so...


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## soaringphnx

In my opinion, the rafale is the best bet for India (remember, the IAF originally wanted Mirages). It is true multi-role as it has excellent air-to-ground abilities while it also has good air-to-air abilities (though not as good as the eurofighter typhoon).

As far as I am concerned, the F-18, F-16 (because of problems with American ToT and sanctions) and MiG-35 (As the IAF already have access to russian tech and are looking to diversify) are already out of the race (although I would have loved to see the MiG-35 in service in India).

I doubt that the Griphen will be selected as it does not offer much political advantages and is competetion for the LCA. Moreover, many of it's components are American and hence again prone to sanctions. Moreover, Swedish jets have never been in service in India.

That leaves us with the eurofighter and the rafale. Both have an edge over other contenders (other than MiG-35) when it comes to ToT as it has few or no american components. Both gives the IAF access to European tech. The eurofighter is better in air-to-air while the rafale has an edge in air-to ground combat. But should India go for another fighter excelling in air-to-air when it has the Su-30MKI? So here, the rafale has the advantage as it can complement the Su-30MKI. Moreover, the rafale is cheaper than the eurofighter and according to wikipedia, it has a lower RCS. India already has a good experience with the mirages. We would only have to make a few changes in the existing infrastructure which translates to less money spent on induction. Infact, I think the IAF should extend the tender and induct 200 of the Rafales.


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## soaringphnx

flanker143 said:


> TOT problem ????..i think so...



Besides ToT and sanctions, I don't think the american planes fit what IAF is looking for.

F/A-18 may be a fine fighter, but since the US Navy is focusing on the F-35, will there be any future upgrades? It is true that it is still in service with the US Navy, but for how long? Once they close their production line, we will have problems with spares. Also, I read somewhere that the F-18 is actually in the heavy class fighter and that it is only slightly smaller than the Su-30MKI.

The F-16 has a very low chance of being selected as PAF already operates them and have better experience. Again, how long will it be in production and will it have any future upgrades?

Both the F-16 and F/A-18 may be successful fighters, but are they still equally effective now? (To bring my point to a better perspective, consider the MiG-21. It was a very successful design, but now it is outdated) Both are old designs, so I feel it is better to opt for more recent designs like the eurofighter or rafale (my choice) which have a better scope for future upgrades.


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## soaringphnx

EADS has offered India to join the consortum as a fifth nation. The French have also indicated that they intend to go beyond a buyer-seller relationship. That means we will have a say in future upgrades of the Typhoon or Rafale. So isn't it better to choose one of them? Too bad they are the most expensive fighters in the competition.


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## karan.1970

In my view, ToT is over hyped. We have enough on our plates with LCA and Su 30 MKI from a local manufacture perspective. With the economic and industrial base we have, sanctions will do pretty little if that ever happens. And with F 18 the only proven platform apart from F 16, my vote's still with the bug..


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## sancho

Hey soaringphnx, welcome to the PD forum!



soaringphnx said:


> In my opinion, the rafale is the best bet for India (remember, the IAF originally wanted Mirages)...



That's a good analysis and pretty much sums up what I think too. The Rafale simply offers the most balanced performance, as well as the most advantages in terms of ToT, sanction proofness, JV/co-developments and less risk of delays.
The only downside are the high costs, but imo they are worth it!



soaringphnx said:


> EADS has offered India to join the consortum as a fifth nation. The French have also indicated that they intend to go beyond a buyer-seller relationship. That means we will have a say in future upgrades of the Typhoon or Rafale. So isn't it better to choose one of them? Too bad they are the most expensive fighters in the competition.



The Eurofighter is not offered with an equal partnership as a fifth consortium member! That is a mistake that many people thinks, but in reality they offered only a partnership to produce avionics for the EF. That means all they do is outsourcing a part of the production to reduce costs, but it doesn't mean India will get any say for future developments of the EF.
Rafale did not openly specify what it means when they say, "beyond a buyer seller relationship". If we took the chance to be the first customer of the Rafale, with an order between 126 and 200, we surely would be an equal partner, not sure what they will, or can offer now when they already theam up with UAE and Brazil.

If we compare the bids with economical benefits, like JV, partnerships, of course EF, Rafale and Boeing will be the best choices, because they can offer the biggest offsets in return. EF and Rafale additionally also provides the most ToT, they clearly offer the most in return for the costs.



karan.1970 said:


> In my view, ToT is over hyped. We have enough on our plates with LCA and Su 30 MKI from a local manufacture perspective. With the economic and industrial base we have, sanctions will do pretty little if that ever happens. And with F 18 the only proven platform apart from F 16, my vote's still with the bug..



Hi Karan, ToT is an important point for the MoD, otherwise they wouldn't askes for it in such high ammounts. Also LCA MK1 and the SU 30 MKI use mainly older gen of techs, MMRCA instead offer us the chance of ToT from latest, maybe even next generation techs and that's a big chance for us. Supercruise, TVC, the surveillance capabilities of Spectra are important for later LCA upgrades, or AMCA, so ToT indeed can be important for us! 
Besides the US fighters only the Rafale has proved it self during war time operations, at least in A2G operations. It will be fielded in Afghanistan by next year again btw, while neither any Gripen, nor EF version, did some thing similar. The Rafale can do that, because it is far in front of them in terms of operational capabilities and developments and is an advantage for India too.

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## karan.1970

sancho said:


> Hey soaringphnx, welcome to the PD forum!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Karan, ToT is an important point for the MoD, otherwise they wouldn't askes for it in such high ammounts. Also LCA MK1 and the SU 30 MKI use mainly older gen of techs, MMRCA instead offer us the chance of ToT from latest, maybe even next generation techs and that's a big chance for us. Supercruise, TVC, the surveillance capabilities of Spectra are important for later LCA upgrades, or AMCA, so ToT indeed can be important for us!
> Besides the US fighters only the Rafale has proved it self during war time operations, at least in A2G operations. It will be fielded in Afghanistan by next year again btw, while neither any Gripen, nor EF version, did some thing similar. The Rafale can do that, because it is far in front of them in terms of operational capabilities and developments and is an advantage for India too.



ToT is certainly important and a factor, but should not be the deciding one. There are other ways to get the know how.. May be a separate deal itself for the same with the company best suited for our ToT needs. My view is that we have 2 distinct needs here. 126 cutting edge proven aircraft. Aircraft manufacturing know how for our own indigenous CA program. The 1st one is insurance and 2nd one is investment. Why mix the 2 and end up compromising on both. Buy the most kick *** aircraft with or without ToT. Buy the technical know how as a separate arrangement on the lines of Kaveri or Brahmos deals

The same reason why I never buy ULIPs as a combo product for Insurance and Investment


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## anathema

Cross posting from EF thread..



sancho said:


> Saab can say much, *but without the approval of Selsex Galileo, they can't offer ToT* and the Italians are a member of the EF consortium. So wait and see what happens when Gripen NG and EF would be shortlisted.
> Be it EWS, or data links, both is already under co-development with the Israelis and they are the number 1 in the world when it comes to avionics, so don't expect a change there.
> Imo, the deal will only go to the US (F18SH), for political reasons.
> 
> Let's discuss this in the MMRCA thread please and not in all these EF threads.




That is hardly the point. The fact that CEO of SAAB is on record for stating so in front world media makes me think that SAAB must have thought or must have clarified this with SELEX. No other vendor has stated as such. 
We can only make a educated guess on what will be or what wont be based on the public media reports. And based on those reports SAAB's ToT offer is better than rest with possible exception of Russian's.


EWS or data links -- co development with Israeli's -- can you kindly provide more info on this. I am not aware of this development. Gripen is known for its Data Link's and sensor fusion so it would be wirthwhile to have knowledge on those. With regards to Israeli's being number 1 , i personally consider Americans as numero uno but thats just a personal opinion.

I'd hate to see F18SH win....its just a bomb truck IMO....we already have one machine SU 30 which is quite capable , would want a plane which can complement Su 30 and not compete with it....Hope GoI gives some thoughts.


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## anathema

sancho said:


> Hi Karan, ToT is an important point for the MoD, otherwise they wouldn't askes for it in such *high ammounts*.



What amounts ? Has MoD specified a set amount for ToT ? What will they compare against ? Can you please provide some info , sorry i didnt knew this ?



sancho said:


> Also LCA MK1 and the SU 30 MKI use mainly older gen of techs, MMRCA instead offer us the chance of ToT from latest, maybe even next generation techs and that's a big chance for us. Supercruise, TVC, *the surveillance capabilities of Spectra* are important for later LCA upgrades, or AMCA, so ToT indeed can be important for us!
> Besides the US fighters only the Rafale has proved it self during war time operations, at least in A2G operations. It will be fielded in Afghanistan by next year again btw, while neither any Gripen, nor EF version, did some thing similar. The Rafale can do that, because it is far in front of them in terms of operational capabilities and developments and is an advantage for India too.



As much as i love Rafale (its my fav plane and one i hope would win)...ToT on technologies such as Spectra - is simply not going to happen (IMO). Imagine a technology which has consumed more than half of fighter planes development costs -- This is spectra. France or Thales simply will not hand it over to us or any other people ...atleast not right away. 
True Rafale was used in A2G operations in Afghanistan...a real operational experience which looks very good on its resume. But Gripen has equally well developed A2G mode , so has Mig 35. Gripen didnt get a chance to go to Afghanistan and hence no operational exp, Rafale was lucky enough to have one. I am pretty sure Gripen would have proved itself if it would have participated in AF. IAF has tested all these fighters for A2G modes and other modes during evaluation. So the point that Rafale is far ahead in terms operational capabilities doesnt add much weight. On other hand low unit cost , low operating costs , low maintenance , good sensor fusion , good side kick to MKI makes Gripen a good bargain. However the biggest disadvantage of Gripen is that there no political gains - unfortunately this has nothing to do with plane itself. 

My opinion is,
Rafale is the best plane. 
Gripen is the most practical choice. IAF's opinions on Gripen is also very well formed.
F16 or F18 would be the choice if US decides to vote US in favour of Security council seat.


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## anathema

karan.1970 said:


> The 1st one is insurance and 2nd one is investment. Why mix the 2 and end up compromising on both. Buy the most kick *** aircraft with or without ToT.



Karan Bhai, we are known to make the best possible deal around (after months and months of barganing.

I wouldnt be surprised if Antony says to Air Marshal -- Humain sab kuch chaiye ...ye doosra voosra deal firse possible nahi hain....doosra deal main opppsition corruption ka ilzaam lagyegi .....

Just kidding...

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## sancho

anathema said:


> That is hardly the point. The fact that CEO of SAAB is on record for stating so in front world media makes me think that SAAB must have thought or must have clarified this with SELEX. *No other vendor has stated as such. *



That's not correct, be it Rafale, EF, or Mig 35, all are offered with full ToT and source codes, Rafale was even the first, that offered something like that.




anathema said:


> We can only make a educated guess on what will be or what wont be based on the public media reports. And based on those reports SAAB's ToT offer is better than rest with possible exception of Russian's.




As I said before, Saab's offer can't be better than Rafales, Migs, or EFs, because they developed all important parts on their own, Saab didn't. LM even officially said that Saabs integrates 30% of US techs, of which they clearly can't provide ToT. The US are ready to provide useful ToT for their own fightes, let alone for foreign competitiors.




anathema said:


> EWS or data links -- co development with Israeli's -- can you kindly provide more info on this. I am not aware of this development.
> Gripen is known for its Data Link's and sensor fusion so it would be wirthwhile to have knowledge on those. With regards to Israeli's being number 1 , i personally consider Americans as numero uno but thats just a personal opinion.




LCAs Mayavi EWS was co-developed by Israels Elbit and Elta won a competition for data links for IAF:

domain-b.com : IAI bags contract for IAF's pilot operational data link project

Also BEL even made the data links for INs P8Is alone, so I doubt that we need more ToT of another source. What we need is radar, or engine techs, where LCA is still lacking behind and Saab can't offer that.
Btw, the fact that many US companies co-develop avionics with Israeli companies shows how good they really are, I even expect the European to be better than the US, they only have not enough fundings like the US.




anathema said:


> I'd hate to see F18SH win....its just a bomb truck IMO....we already have one machine SU 30 which is quite capable , would want a plane which can complement Su 30 and not compete with it....Hope GoI gives some thoughts.



I don't think its a bad fighter in general, but I also don't want to see it winning, for a numbers of reasons. 




anathema said:


> What amounts ? Has MoD specified a set amount for ToT ? What will they compare against ? Can you please provide some info , sorry i didnt knew this ?
> 
> Can't give you an exact figure, but in many reports it was said to be unusually high, be it from Indian, German, or French sources that I read.
> 
> 
> True Rafale was used in A2G operations in Afghanistan...a real operational experience which looks very good on its resume. But Gripen has equally well developed A2G mode , so has Mig 35. Gripen didnt get a chance to go to Afghanistan and hence no operational exp, Rafale was lucky enough to have one. I am pretty sure Gripen would have proved itself if it would have participated in AF. IAF has tested all these fighters for A2G modes and other modes during evaluation. So the point that Rafale is far ahead in terms operational capabilities doesnt add much weight. On other hand low unit cost , low operating costs , low maintenance , good sensor fusion , good side kick to MKI makes Gripen a good bargain. However the biggest disadvantage of Gripen is that there no political gains - unfortunately this has nothing to do with plane itself.



That's not correct mate, several countries have earlier versions of the Gripen, only Gripen NG is not available yet, but the problem is that they are less developed and capable in this field than the Rafale.

If we Rank A2G capabilities of the contendors, it would be like this:

1. F18SH
2. Rafale
3. F16IN

All ready and operational, with the highest payloads, range and variety of weapons. 

4. Gripen NG
5. Mig 35
6. EF

The other 3 are not close to them yet, especially not in deep penetration missions. Imo A2G will be one of the most important points for the decision.

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## sancho

karan.1970 said:


> My view is that we have 2 distinct needs here. 126 cutting edge proven aircraft. Aircraft manufacturing know how for our own indigenous CA program. The 1st one is insurance and 2nd one is investment. Why mix the 2 and end up compromising on both. Buy the most kick *** aircraft with or without ToT.



Hi Karan, that's a real interesting point, but why do you think we can't have both? The most kick... fighter and know how for LCA program?

What does LCA need? A partner for Kaveri engine and for AESA radar right? And who has a ready developed AESA radar and offers us an engine co-development? The Rafale! 


@ soaringphnx

Here is the source, that says what kind of partnership is offered with EF:



> *So you are differentiating between the partnership you have in India and the existing partnerships in Europe with other member countries?*
> 
> Yes. It must be different because I would like to point out that India has the great opportunity to become our *industrial partner*. However, it cannot be that we say &#8220;Okay. India could become a fifth partner and then we divide everything through five instead of four.&#8221; Of course this is not possible, let us be clear among ourselves.



http://www.livemint.com/2009/08/10231950/8216We-will-shift-workload.html?h=B



Also here is the report about IAF officers that flown in Rafale simulators:



> *This Thursday, two Indian officers have flown in Rafale*
> 
> Saturday, 20 March, 2010
> 
> This Thursday, March 18, two Indian officers were able to explore and test by themselves all the qualities of the Rafale.
> 
> After a morning briefing the Indian pilot -- very experienced pilot on board a plane just for him - Could take off in his Rafale, intercept and identify a fighterr with optical sighting of Rafale, engage multiple targets air-sourced located beyond the visual range of sight, firing a salvo of AASM -- the new GPS French bomb - Landed on the targets detected and recalls during the mission, before landing ... all in one hour of simulated flight.
> 
> The two Indian officers were able to see the realism of the Rafale simulator, using this two-seater flight tested what they had learned in less than a day.
> 
> *They left the Fighter Squadron 1 / 7 amased by how easy our plane is and gave a smile*


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## anathema

Thanks for the detailed reply.



sancho said:


> That's not correct, be it Rafale, EF, or Mig 35, all are offered with full ToT and source codes, Rafale was even the first, that offered something like that.



Really !!! i dont believe anybody has offered to share source codes, i could find only Gripen's open offer on the public doman (exception MiG). Can you give further info. 





sancho said:


> As I said before, Saab's offer can't be better than Rafales, Migs, or EFs, *because they developed all important parts on their own, Saab didn't*. LM even officially said that Saabs integrates 30% of US techs, of which they clearly can't provide ToT. The US are ready to provide useful ToT for their own fightes, let alone for foreign competitiors.



And this is precisely the reason why SAAB might be willing to sell itself to India. They know they havent developed much , so give full knowledge with whatever they have developed - Make this as a selling point. Other coutries since they have developed systems on their own -- might be less willing to share considering the effort and the development costs involved. Technologies such as Spectra will be highly unlikely to be offered as part of ToT. Same with Engine - Otherwise MoD would never gone ahead with Snecma partnership for Kaveri.




sancho said:


> LCAs Mayavi EWS was co-developed by Israels Elbit and Elta won a competition for data links for IAF:
> 
> domain-b.com : IAI bags contract for IAF's pilot operational data link project
> 
> Also BEL even made the data links for INs P8Is alone, so I doubt that we need more ToT of another source. What we need is radar, or engine techs, where LCA is still lacking behind and Saab can't offer that.
> Btw, the fact that many US companies co-develop avionics with Israeli companies shows how good they really are, I even expect the European to be better than the US, they only have not enough fundings like the US.



Thanks ...but where is the co development or ToT for Mayavi ? AFAIK they have been bought off shelf with no inputs from our side. Similarly for data links ?


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## soaringphnx

sancho said:


> The Eurofighter is not offered with an equal partnership as a fifth consortium member! That is a mistake that many people thinks, but in reality they offered only a partnership to produce avionics for the EF. That means all they do is outsourcing a part of the production to reduce costs, but it doesn't mean India will get any say for future developments of the EF.
> Rafale did not openly specify what it means when they say, "beyond a buyer seller relationship". If we took the chance to be the first customer of the Rafale, with an order between 126 and 200, we surely would be an equal partner, not sure what they will, or can offer now when they already theam up with UAE and Brazil.
> 
> If we compare the bids with economical benefits, like JV, partnerships, of course EF, Rafale and Boeing will be the best choices, because they can offer the biggest offsets in return. EF and Rafale additionally also provides the most ToT, they clearly offer the most in return for the costs.



Thanks for clearing that sancho!!



sancho said:


> What does LCA need? A partner for Kaveri engine and for AESA radar right? And who has a ready developed AESA radar and offers us an engine co-development? The Rafale!



My point exactly!


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## soaringphnx

anathema said:


> Its costing Brazil more than $4 Billion dollars for 36 plane deal. I doubt if it includes ToT.



According to Wikipedia:



> The Defence Ministry has allocated Rs 42,000 crore (US$ 8.95 billion) for the purchase of 126 Multi-Role Combat Aircraft.



How do EADS and Dassault plan to provide us with 126 fighters if it costs 4 billion dollars for just 36 Rafales? I'm not contradicting anyone, I was just wondering. After all, they wouldn't want this to be a financial liability, do they?


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## anathema

soaringphnx said:


> According to Wikipedia:
> 
> 
> 
> How do EADS and Dassault plan to provide us with 126 fighters if it costs 4 billion dollars for just 36 Rafales? I'm not contradicting anyone, I was just wondering. After all, they wouldn't want this to be a financial liability, do they?



Trust me -- Everybody has the same questions and no clear answers. However even if you take any contender - F16,Gripen , etc...10 Billion dollars for any contender is not possible in todays age ..considering that the deal will also includes spares , infra set up, cost of Tot , etc...10 billion dollars is a neanderthal figure...its no longer applicable. 

Questions is what is the real budget ?


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## anathema

sancho said:


> If we Rank A2G capabilities of the contendors, it would be like this:
> 
> 1. F18SH
> 2. Rafale
> 3. F16IN
> 
> All ready and operational, with the highest payloads, range and variety of weapons.
> 
> 4. Gripen NG
> 5. Mig 35
> 6. EF
> 
> The other 3 are not close to them yet, especially not in deep penetration missions. Imo A2G will be one of the most important points for the decision.



I would like to point again that Gripen is fully developed A2G role. Note that Gripen NG is further development to Gripen C/D. Gripen C/D is fully operational and thoroughly tested for A2 G role -- Similar to F16 In.


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## jha

^^^ BTW 124 F/A-18 are being bought by USN for $5.3 Bill..in FMS route which will be done most likely if it wins does not allow companies to make profit..so considering the fact that the sizes of tender are almost same ...can we expect them to offer a ~7 bil. deal..?
Now the true colour of US will be out..whether they really care about FMS route or,it is just another propaganda..


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## soaringphnx

After reading so many of anathema's posts, I can't help feeling that the Gripen might be a logical choice for the IAF as it has good performance, low cost, low maintainence and supercruse. My vote is still for the rafale though.


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## anathema

jha said:


> ^^^ BTW 124 F/A-18 are being bought by USN for $5.3 Bill..in FMS route which will be done most likely if it wins does not allow companies to make profit..so considering the fact that the sizes of tender are almost same ...can we expect them to offer a ~7 bil. deal..?
> Now the true colour of US will be out..whether they really care about FMS route or,it is just another propaganda..




Coool thats news .....but then it doesnt include spare parts , infrastructure set up , Tot sharing costs , weapon system costs...all will come to play.....So no they cant offer a ~7 Billion dollar deal. But still i am really surprised by $5.3 Billion dollar figure; F18 for 43 million a piece....Gripen itself costs almost 50 mill a piece (if i am not wrong)......seems like that reporting is incorrect.


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## Sri

Hi,

Thats true it seems,
Boeing to Sell U.S. Navy 124 F-18s for $5.4 Billion (Update1) - BusinessWeek

But for other aspects like TOT, spares, weapons, infrastructure etc even if we double the figure i.e. 10.8 b $ will be well within our budget.

lets wait and watch 
thanks
Sri


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## sancho

anathema said:


> Really !!! i dont believe anybody has offered to share source codes, i could find only Gripen's open offer on the public doman (exception MiG). Can you give further info.
> 
> And this is precisely the reason why SAAB might be willing to sell itself to India. They know they havent developed much , so give full knowledge with whatever they have developed - Make this as a selling point. Other coutries since they have developed systems on their own -- might be less willing to share considering the effort and the development costs involved. Technologies such as Spectra will be highly unlikely to be offered as part of ToT. Same with Engine - Otherwise MoD would never gone ahead with Snecma partnership for Kaveri.
> 
> 
> Thanks ...but where is the co development or ToT for Mayavi ? AFAIK they have been bought off shelf with no inputs from our side. Similarly for data links ?




*Rafale full ToT:*

domain-b.com : Dassault ups the ante with full technology transfer for Rafale


*EF full ToT* (although he mentioned of HIS country will transfer full technology, not sure if all EF members will):

Germany planning multiple pacts with India


*Mayavi:*



> WORK-SHARING:
> Under the agreement the work was done at the DARE laboratory in Bangalore with 70 &#37; funding done by the Indian side and remaining by the Israeli. Under the agreement Elisra produced the the missile approach system and jamming pods where as DARE undertook the job of developing its cooling system, electromagnetic interference and susceptibility system as well as integration of all the systems on the aircraft.




Angle of Attack: Mayavi Electronic Warfare System

A member posted more infos about it in the LCA thread before, maybe you will find it with the search function.



Regarding Saab, of course they will sell anything THEY HAVE to get the deal, but what is the gain for us? For example, will we gain more from full ToT of techs that we already have, or can develop alone? Or will we gain more from some ToT of techs where we still lack clearly behind? That's why I think, if ToT is important, the Gripen NG can't offer us much in this field.



anathema said:


> I would like to point again that Gripen is fully developed A2G role. Note that Gripen NG is further development to Gripen C/D. Gripen C/D is fully operational and thoroughly tested for A2 G role -- Similar to F16 In.



Not exactly, of course it will use the same weapons as the older versions, but the NG also will have differences in weapon stations which are under development only.

The config in the following pic shows 2 heavy PGMs on the centerline weapon stations, which is impressive for such a light - medium class fighter. The problem is, so far it is not possible to carry those bombs and a targeting pod at the same time. Once again it shows that the NG is still only under development and available as a prototype only. There are a lot of art works with impressive weapon loads on multi pylons published by Saab, but in reality they are not developed yet.








F16IN instead have no changes in terms of payload, or weapons, it takes the F16 block 60 as a base and just integrates a new radar and some avionics.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## sancho

soaringphnx said:


> According to Wikipedia:
> 
> 
> 
> How do EADS and Dassault plan to provide us with 126 fighters if it costs 4 billion dollars for just 36 Rafales? I'm not contradicting anyone, I was just wondering. After all, they wouldn't want this to be a financial liability, do they?



Numbers makes the difference, the more you order the less the costs, 96 Rafales was offered for $7-8 billions to Saudi Arabia.


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## soaringphnx

sancho said:


> Numbers makes the difference, the more you order the less the costs, 96 Rafales was offered for $7-8 billions to Saudi Arabia.



Thanks for clearing that Sancho. You're the best!!

Reactions: Like Like:
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## soaringphnx

Hey guys, I found an article about the MRCA which is quite interesting. If anyone is interested, follow the link below:

India&#8217;s M-MRCA Fighter Competition


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## anathema

sancho said:


> Numbers makes the difference, the more you order the less the costs, 96 Rafales was offered for $7-8 billions to Saudi Arabia.



That is not correct !!. 

The deal includes buy back of Mirage 2009 (not sure about the number). Further the deal as per media reports is for Rafale upgradation .i.e French would be upgrading their Rafale's to F3 or F4 standard and then selling it to UAE. It will not be Brand new planes as per my understanding. 

Also Brazillian deal is in the range for 4-5 Billion dollars ...There is no way 96 Rafales would come for 7-8 Billion dollars. Numbers do make difference but no that much.


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## anathema

sancho said:


> Not exactly, of course it will use the same weapons as the older versions, *but the NG also will have differences in weapon stations which are under development only*.
> 
> *The config in the following pic shows 2 heavy PGMs on the centerline weapon stations, which is impressive for such a light - medium class fighter. The problem is, so far it is not possible to carry those bombs and a targeting pod at the same time. Once again it shows that the NG is still only under development and available as a prototype only*.



Thanks for Mayavi info ....never knew it. Always wondered why Israelis would choose a indian sounding name.

^ True NG will have new weapon stations but to question its A2G role on the basis of new weapon stations doest cut it. 
The weapon stations which were present in Gripen C/D are still present in NG. The weapon stations which was tested for A2G for C/D are still present in NG. The only difference is testing of the new weapon stations - Which in IMO would be thoroughly tested and seen by IAF. 

Of course it is still under development......but to say that it is not tested for A2G role on the basis of extra weapon stations doesnt make sense IMO.

Taking Rafale for instance -- Only F2 was tested in Afghanistan...F3 wasnt ....F3 is just now entering into service...so there are no operational records of F3 questioning its multi role capability.....Ofcourse the above argument is a strawman....I love Rafale ....and would love to see it in IAF colors.....but i dont see how its feasible practically.....considering the cost of the plane...


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## sancho

anathema said:


> That is not correct !!.
> 
> The deal includes buy back of Mirage 2009 (not sure about the number). Further the deal as per media reports is for Rafale upgradation .i.e French would be upgrading their Rafale's to F3 or F4 standard and then selling it to UAE. It will not be Brand new planes as per my understanding.
> 
> Also Brazillian deal is in the range for 4-5 Billion dollars ...There is no way 96 Rafales would come for 7-8 Billion dollars. Numbers do make difference but no that much.



Mate I guess you confuesed UAE with Saudi Arabia here! I said 96 Rafales were offered for Saudi Arabia, but they took 72 EFs instead. If you don't believe me, google for 96 Rafales + Saudi Arabia.



anathema said:


> ^ True NG will have new weapon stations but to question its A2G role on the basis of new weapon stations doest cut it.
> The weapon stations which were present in Gripen C/D are still present in NG. The weapon stations which was tested for A2G for C/D are still present in NG. The only difference is testing of the new weapon stations - Which in IMO would be thoroughly tested and seen by IAF.
> 
> Of course it is still under development......but to say that it is not tested for A2G role on the basis of extra weapon stations doesnt make sense IMO.



But that makes a big difference, the normal Gripen had 3 weapon stations for fuel tanks, or heavy weapons and 4t payload. Gripen NG now improved the capability with one more station and 2t more payload. But as I said, the problem is if heavy weapons will be carried of on the centerline stations, the targeting pod under the air intake doesn't fit anymore. It needs to be modificated, or carried on another station, but that is not clear yet. Without targeting pod the these 2 heavy bombs will be just dumb bombs and not PGMs, which obviously is a big difference in terms of A2G capability. 
That's why we need to wait till the development and redesign of the Gripen NG is completed and only then we know about its capabilities in A2G. 




anathema said:


> Taking Rafale for instance -- Only F2 was tested in Afghanistan...F3 wasnt ....F3 is just now entering into service...so there are no operational records of F3 questioning its multi role capability.....Ofcourse the above argument is a strawman....I love Rafale ....and would love to see it in IAF colors.....but i dont see how its feasible practically.....considering the cost of the plane...



The difference between Rafale F2 to F3 is the same as F16 block 60 to IN. It's just about software upgrades, but no changes in the hardware like at the Gripen NG (airframe redesign).
The F2 fielded in Afghanistan used Paveway LGB as well as AASM PGMs, the same that the F3 will use too. Exocet and Scalp was integrated even before that, so it will use the experience of the older versions. Gripen NG will do it to some extend too, but its capabilities have improved and these are not fully developed, or operational yet.


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## soaringphnx

sancho said:


> Numbers makes the difference, the more you order the less the costs, 96 Rafales was offered for $7-8 billions to Saudi Arabia.



hey sancho, did the saudi offer include ToT? The French did mention that they intend to go beyond a buyer-seller relationship. Any news on what sort of relationship they meant? Also, is the option for 64/74 more aircraft for the navy?


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## soaringphnx

anathema said:


> Brazillian deal is in the range for 4-5 Billion dollars ...



I am reading in many places like defency industry daily that the brazilian deal is worth about $2.2 billion for 36 planes + ToT. If that is the case, can we expect deals in the range of $8billion? Can I get an expert's opinion on this?


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## sancho

soaringphnx said:


> hey sancho, did the saudi offer include ToT? The French did mention that they intend to go beyond a buyer-seller relationship. Any news on what sort of relationship they meant? Also, is the option for 64/74 more aircraft for the navy?



Regarding ToT to Saudi, not sure about that, but they don't licence produce them and get them right from Europe, so that might be not necessary.
Regarding French offer, not sure about that too, not much is known yet. They proposed only directly to MoD and did not mention too much in the media and they are concentrating on Brazil and UAE at the moment. If these are over and MMRCA gets hotter, we might hear more about it.
The optional are for the air force as far as I know and IN is looking for 40 only, so combined order could go up to 240 fighters.


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## anathema

sancho said:


> Mate I guess you confuesed UAE with Saudi Arabia here! I said 96 Rafales were offered for Saudi Arabia, but they took 72 EFs instead. If you don't believe me, google for 96 Rafales + Saudi Arabia.



Sorry mate..Apologies .. Got confused between Saudi and UAE....Anyways...

Here's the News --->
"Saudi Arabia has reached a memorandum of understanding with *France to buy 48 Rafale aircraft from Dassault Aviation *(AVMD.PA: Quote, Profile, Research) , with an option for a further 48, French business daily Les Echos said on Friday.
The deal for the multi-role fighters, estimated to be worth up to *6 billion euros ($7.72 billion)*, could be finalised by the end of the year, the newspaper said.
"

*Its not 96 aircraft for $7.7 Billion...Its 46 !!*....Gives you an idea of how expensive the Rafale is !!! This also checks with the fact that Brazil deal is reported to be in the tune of $4 Billion.

I dont see how India can afford this kinda money ... We are talking almost $20 Billion ..if not more.




sancho said:


> But that makes a big difference, the normal Gripen had 3 weapon stations for fuel tanks, or heavy weapons and 4t payload. Gripen NG now improved the capability with one more station and 2t more payload. But as I said, the problem is if heavy weapons will be carried of on the centerline stations, the targeting pod under the air intake doesn't fit anymore. *It needs to be modificated, or carried on another station, but that is not clear yet. Without targeting pod the these 2 heavy bombs will be just dumb bombs and not PGMs, which obviously is a big difference in terms of A2G capability*.
> That's why we need to wait till the development and redesign of the Gripen NG is completed and only then we know about its capabilities in A2G.



I am not sure if what you highlighted is a big deal..Further as a part of MRCA IAF indeed tested Gripen NG in Sweden for A2G roles...These surely must have included PGM's also. Further a POD can be carried at any place (if its structurally feasible) on a plane. The only change is to hook up the POD to MFD's on plane. The POD will do its job of illuminating the target. Since Gripen has been built by swedes from scratch ..they would pretty much know how to hook up the POD on MFD's. 





sancho said:


> The difference between Rafale F2 to F3 is the same as F16 block 60 to IN. It's just about software upgrades, but no changes in the hardware like at the Gripen NG (airframe redesign).
> The F2 fielded in Afghanistan used Paveway LGB as well as AASM PGMs, the same that the F3 will use too. Exocet and Scalp was integrated even before that, so it will use the experience of the older versions. Gripen NG will do it to some extend too, but its capabilities have improved and these are not fully developed, or operational yet.



The F2 that was fielded in Afghanistan was limited to only A2G role. There was no A2A role in the plane ...F2 wasnt a true multirole aircraft. F3 on the other hand has A2A as well. So the operational experience gained in Afghanistan was only limited to A2G if not less. The same is applicable to Gripen NG, i personally believe NG score more over here.....Here you have Gripen C/D Aircraft which was tested for all roles...then the swedes brought out next block of Aircraft NG...true testing of all roles should be done as is done with all upgrades but to say that its not yet qualified for A2G role is a pure understatement. Mig 29K is almost a new aircraft ..new engine , structural frame strengthed , more hardpoints ...but its A2G role is not questioned ..so why should we question Gripen's A2G role. 

On other hand EF hasnt been tested hard enough for A2G ...so it deserves this tag but not the Gripen.


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## anathema

soaringphnx said:


> I am reading in many places like defency industry daily that the brazilian deal is worth about $2.2 billion for 36 planes + ToT. If that is the case, can we expect deals in the range of $8billion? Can I get an expert's opinion on this?



I am no expert  ...But here's a link from Reuters ..They are generally impecable when it comes to reporting..And i dont think you will ever find the true figure...i mean atleast not right now ...If the deal is finalized then yeah..i am begining to hear rumours that Rafale as won the deal

Brazil to choose France's Rafale jet-govt source | Reuters

*"The Rafale is reported to have the highest price of the three finalists in the bidding process, which includes the Boeing Co (BA.N) F-18.
"*

*"The deal, which could initially be worth more than $4 billion, has sparked fierce competition among aircraft manufacturers."*


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## sancho

anathema said:


> *Its not 96 aircraft for $7.7 Billion...Its 46 !!*....Gives you an idea of how expensive the Rafale is !!! This also checks with the fact that Brazil deal is reported to be in the tune of $4 Billion.





> *D-Days for Rafale*
> Posted on 23 November 2009 in Defence
> 
> With decision time looming in a number of important fighter competitions, and with the aircraft appearing to be well placed in several of these, 2009 could yet be 'the year of the Rafale'. JON LAKE reports...
> 
> ...The UAEs interest in Rafale follows failed campaigns in Saudi Arabia, Morocco and Libya. In 2005 French newspapers reported that Saudi Arabia had agreed in principle *to acquire up to 96 Rafales for a reported price of some 6bn* following discussions between then-French president Jacques Chirac and Saudi Arabias Crown Prince Abdullah, though Saudi Arabia subsequently confirmed its order for 72 Eurofighter Typhoons, and Dassault subsequently denied that there had been any offer or negotiations.



Arabian Aerospace - D-Days for Rafale

So 96 Rafale F2 was offered for 6 billions, which are $7.39 billions at todays exchange rate. Also if that would not be true, than how come that the 72 EFs, that Saudi Arabia finally bought, costed 4.43 pound, which was $8.86 billions at that time?



> *Saudis Pay 4.43 Billion Pounds for 72 Eurofighters (Update5)*
> 
> Sept. 17 (Bloomberg) -- Saudi Arabia ordered 72 Eurofighter Typhoon warplanes from the U.K. at a cost of 4.43 billion pounds ($8.86 billion), the biggest export contract for the aircraft...



Saudis Pay 4.43 Billion Pounds for 72 Eurofighters (Update5) - Bloomberg

As you can see, numbers indeed makes a difference!




anathema said:


> I am not sure if what you highlighted is a big deal..Further as a part of MRCA IAF indeed tested Gripen NG in Sweden for A2G roles...These surely must have included PGM's also. Further a POD can be carried at any place (if its structurally feasible) on a plane. The only change is to hook up the POD to MFD's on plane. The POD will do its job of illuminating the target. Since Gripen has been built by swedes from scratch ..they would pretty much know how to hook up the POD on MFD's.



The weapon trials were made in India and with the Gripen C/D that were send before the NG. The NG did the same flight trials as the other competitiors in India.
Of course sooner, or later they will find a solution, but it's not available now and that shows the status of the development. Gripen NG is not a simple upgrade and that makes it more difficult till every capability is ready and proven. 




anathema said:


> The F2 that was fielded in Afghanistan was limited to only A2G role. There was no A2A role in the plane ...F2 wasnt a true multirole aircraft. F3 on the other hand has A2A as well.



Sorry, but that doesn't make sense! Every fighter will be inducted with A2A capabilities first and only later the A2G capabilities will be added. By our logic, the Rafale F1 must had no A2A, nor A2G capabilities at all right? But that's wrong, the Rafale F1 inducted for the navy had A2A capabilities only, that's why they still use the Super Étendard in the strike role. F2 instead was multi role capable with A2G capabilities added, the only A2G weapon that was added in F3 is ASMP, the nuclear missile.




anathema said:


> Mig 29K is almost a new aircraft ..new engine , structural frame strengthed , more hardpoints ...but its A2G role is not questioned ..so why should we question Gripen's A2G role.



Who said its A2G capabilities is not questioned? I ranked it behind the Gripen NG or? Normally I would rank it even at the last place, but as long the EF don't has any A2G missile, it must be the last.
But the Gripen and even more the Mig are clearly not in the class of Rafale and F18SH in terms of A2G.


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## anathema

sancho said:


> Arabian Aerospace - D-Days for Rafale
> So 96 Rafale F2 was offered for 6 billions, which are $7.39 billions at todays exchange rate.



Source Reteurs --

PARIS, April 15 (Reuters) - Saudi Arabia has reached a memorandum of understanding with France to buy 48 Rafale aircraft from Dassault Aviation (AVMD.PA: Quote, Profile, Research) , with an option for a further 48, French business daily Les Echos said on Friday.
The deal for the multi-role fighters, estimated to be worth up to 6 billion euros ($7.72 billion), could be finalised by the end of the year, the newspaper said.


Source Bloomberg --

April 15 (Bloomberg) -- Dassault Aviation SA shares rose as 
much as 4.2 percent after Les Echos reported Saudi Arabia is 
planning an order for as many as 96 of the company's Rafale combat 
jets. Dassault denied the report.

Shares of Paris-based Dassault rose as much as 21 euros to 525 
euros and were up 1.2 percent at 510 euros as of 10:54 a.m. in 
Paris. Only 4 percent of Dassault stock is publicly traded. The 
Dassault family controls 50.2 percent of the shares and European 
Aeronautic, Defense & Space Co. owns 46 percent.

*Saudi Arabia agreed to buy 48 Rafales, with options for another 
48 planes, from Dassault for about 6 billion euros, Les Echos 
reported today. The project would mark Dassault's first foreign 
sale of Rafale jets. Dassault didn't confirm the report.*

I would say these sources are much better and proven....arab news seems to have messed up the numbers just like the Indian media.




sancho said:


> *Also if that would not be true, than how come that the 72 EFs, that Saudi Arabia finally bought, costed 4.43 pound, which was $8.86 billions at that time*?
> 
> 
> 
> Saudis Pay 4.43 Billion Pounds for 72 Eurofighters (Update5) - Bloomberg
> 
> As you can see, numbers indeed makes a difference!



Good question ...I dont know the answer. But what i can do is guess from published reports -->

1) Rafale is considered as more expensive than EF. -- Although there are no confirmed reports and everybody has their own version.
2) The deal for EF with saudi was only a small part of big deal. Saudi's were negotiating a 40 Billion pound deal with UK...for upgrading their existing weaponery , tornadoes , etc....One can only guess how much you can bargain when you have a deal of this magnitude going on ....and pretty much UK has a huge say in european consortium...I am betting bucks...if India would have been in Saudi's place then we would have dragged the price further down.

I agree numbers do make a difference...but not that much ...alteast in multi billion dollar deals!!



sancho said:


> *The weapon trials were made in India and with the Gripen C/D that were send before the NG*. The NG did the same flight trials as the other competitiors in India.
> Of course sooner, or later they will find a solution, but it's not available now and that shows the status of the development. Gripen NG is not a simple upgrade and that makes it more difficult till every capability is ready and proven.



Weapon trials were supposed to happen in country of origin ..atleast thats what was in the plan. I am pretty sure that i read reports about security/safety concerns with Foreign weapons coming to India. Two teams of IAF went to coutries of origin and tested out the weapons on each and every aircraft. This included flying and weapon testing on Gripen.. which version of Gripen -- i dont have access to that info. But i am pretty much sure they would have had access to Gripen Demo in Sweden including weapon testing on simulators and aircraft.





sancho said:


> Sorry, but that doesn't make sense! Every fighter will be inducted with A2A capabilities first and only later the A2G capabilities will be added. By our logic, the Rafale F1 must had no A2A, nor A2G capabilities at all right? But that's wrong, the Rafale F1 inducted for the navy had A2A capabilities only, that's why they still use the Super Étendard in the strike role. F2 instead was multi role capable with A2G capabilities added, the only A2G weapon that was added in F3 is ASMP, the nuclear missile.



Sorry agreed. I was reading something else and made a mess..you are Right !!..Rigours of doing office work and posting on a forum !!




sancho said:


> Who said its A2G capabilities is not questioned? I ranked it behind the Gripen NG or? Normally I would rank it even at the last place, but as long the EF don't has any A2G missile, it must be the last.
> But the Gripen and even more the Mig are clearly not in the class of Rafale and F18SH in terms of A2G.



I pointed that out not because of your selection but because IN opted for Mig 29K with no confirmation on A2G roles. So there is definetly more to it than meets the eye when we say it hasnt proven itself in A2G. The fact that Mig 29 is proven platform was enough for IN to order it for naval aviation (coupled with fact that Russian arm twisting also did the trick but thats besides the point). Like i said ..the platform has proven itself...if a aircraft is undergoing modifications that doesnt mean it has to prove all over again for each and every quality of the aircraft.

I agree on EF.


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## sudhir007

France offers to Indian Air Force for purchasing 40 Rafale fighters - All India Today

A French company offered to sell 40 of its state-of-the-art aircraft Rafale fighter jets to India for a bi-lateral air exercise on Friday. An Indo-French joint exercise is to be held somewhere in India in 2011 &#8211; 12. The offer was made by the maker of the Rafale and Mirage fighters, Charles Edelstennie, who is also the scion of the Dassult family. Dessult is a multi-billion French military and civil aerospace company.

The chairman and chief executive of Dassult said, &#8220;We know the Indian Air Force, with which we have a decade-long close association, is facing force depletion. So we are ready to supply 40 Rafales, the world&#8217;s first omni-role fighters to India, in a short span of time.&#8221;

The officers of French Air Force discussed the idea with the Indian Air Force team, which is now in France for a tri-lateral air exercise in which the Singapore air force is also involved. According to Edelastennie, Rafale fighters could be an interim sale to India to acquire 126 Multi Role Combat Aircraft at cost of Rs 40,000 crore. He said, &#8220;It is fulfilling the needs and tasks of the French air force and navy globally.

An Indian Air Force officer, who is the part of the Indian continent for Garuda-2010 exercise in Istres air base in France, said, &#8220;At present, the talks for the next Indo-French exercise are also on and the French officials have expressed their desire to bring the Rafale aircraft for the next joint air exercise likely to be held in 2011-12 in India.&#8221; The current exercise also reached its final stage and exercise will be finished tomorrow. K K Nowhar, Air Marshall of Indian Air Force, who visited the Indian contingent said, &#8220;Our participation in the exercise has reinforced the manner in which we conduct our operations.&#8221;


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## soaringphnx

*France offers to supply 40 Rafale fighters to IAF*

As President Nicolas Sarkozy began talks with Indian leaders to boost Indo-French ties, a French company Friday offered to sell 40 of its new generation Rafale fighters to New Delhi on a fast track basis to help IAF maintain its combat edge.

The offer was made by Charles Edelstennie, scion of the Dassult family, the makers of the Rafale and Mirage fighters. "We know the Indian Air Force, with which we have a decade-long close association, is facing force depletion. So *we are ready to supply 40 Rafales, the world's first omni-role fighters to India, in a short span of time*", the chairman and chief executive of Dassult, a multi-billion French military and civil aerospace company, told PTI.

Edelastennie said Rafale fighters could be an interim sale to India as New Delhi finalises preparations to acquire 126 Multi Role Combat Aircraft at an estimated cost of $10 billion (about Rs 40,000 crore).

"We estimate delays in procurements of these 126 fighters. So *we are offering the Rafale fighters as interim arrangement*", he said.

The government has already cleared a contract for purchase of 40 additional SU-30MKI to maintain an effective air combat strength.

Terming the Rafale fighter supply as a "friendly gesture to help close friend India," Edelstennie said his company was a strong bidder for India's MCRA contract.

Rubbishing notions that *Rafale came with a heavy price tag, the Dassult CEO said "the fighters' cost to efficiency was not high. New Delhi would get a cheaper price tag as the fighters' assembly in India under technology transfer would not be high".* 

*"Rafale is very close to life cycle cost of Mirage 2000,"* the French CEO, who is part of the 60-strong captains of French Industry accompanying President Sarkozy, said.

Describing Rafale as a truly multi-role aircraft, Edelstennie said the fighter had air to air, air to ground as well as air to sea capability, which would allow IAF the liberty of using fewer aircraft for multi-tasking. He said France had always been a "friend in need" for India.

We have been transferring weapon platforms and systems to you even in adverse international conditions," the Dassult CEO said.

He claimed *all the French military supplies to India were coming without "any strings attached"* unlike sales from US and Russia .

On Rafale sales offer to India, Edelstennie said this was not the only gesture made by the French. "A couple of years ago we thrice made an offer to India to transfer the entire Mirage-2000 assembly lines and also the entire export rights of the fighters," he said. "We see and feel the regret now. It was a golden opportunity which your then government did not utilize," the French CEO claimed.

Edelastennie asserted that unlike the US fighters in contention for the Indian contract, Rafale was a generation ahead. "It is fulfilling the needs and tasks of the French air force and navy globally."

*On installation of a AESA radar on the Rafale fighters as stated by the Indian fighter tender, he said a French version of the radar had been developed by the Thales company and would be in full production in the aircraft by 2012.
*
On the Mirage-2000 upgrade, the French executive said his company had made a proposal to India and currently negotiations were on. Asked if the estimated price tag of 1.5 billion euro for the upgrade was not too high, Edelstennie said "We have come to negotiations and let us see how the final picture would emerge".

On booming sales of his Falcon 7x900DX and 2000lx business jets sales in India, he said "the sales have been on the upward swing and we hope that they get more bigger soon".

France offers to supply 40 Rafale fighters to IAF


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## Ammyy

^^ so this offer is different from MRCA??????


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## SpArK

Any info about the price they are offering??


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## soaringphnx

DRDO said:


> ^^ so this offer is different from MRCA??????



From what I understand, the French are proposing it as an interim arrangement as they feel that there may be delays in the MRCA induction. They are offering to provide 40 Rafales in a short span to help the IAF curb it's force depletion. This offer seems to be separate from the MRCA.


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## SpArK

France offers to supply 40 Rafale fighters to IAF



*France offers to supply 40 Rafale fighters to IAF​*

As President Nicolas Sarkozy began talks with Indian leaders to boost Indo-French ties, a French company Friday offered to sell 40 of its new generation Rafale fighters to New Delhi on a fast track basis to help IAF maintain its combat edge.

The offer was made by Charles Edelstennie, scion of the Dassult family, the makers of the Rafale and Mirage fighters. "We know the Indian Air Force, with which we have a decade-long close association, is facing force depletion. So we are ready to supply 40 Rafales, the world's first omni-role fighters to India, in a short span of time", the chairman and chief executive of Dassult, a multi-billion French military and civil aerospace company, told PTI.

*Edelastennie said Rafale fighters could be an interim sale to India as New Delhi finalises preparations to acquire 126 Multi Role Combat Aircraft at an estimated cost of $10 billion (about Rs 40,000 crore).

"We estimate delays in procurements of these 126 fighters. So we are offering the Rafale fighters as interim arrangement", he said.

The government has already cleared a contract for purchase of 40 additional SU-30MKI to maintain an effective air combat strength.*

Terming the Rafale fighter supply as a "friendly gesture to help close friend India," Edelstennie said his company was a strong bidder for India's MCRA contract.

Rubbishing notions that Rafale came with a heavy price tag, the Dassult CEO said "the fighters' cost to efficiency was not high. New Delhi would get a cheaper price tag as the fighters' assembly in India under technology transfer would not be high".

"Rafale is very close to life cycle cost of Mirage 2000," the French CEO, who is part of the 60-strong captains of French Industry accompanying President Sarkozy, said.

Describing Rafale as a truly multi-role aircraft, Edelstennie said the fighter had air to air, air to ground as well as air to sea capability, which would allow IAF the liberty of using fewer aircraft for multi-tasking. He said France [Images] had always been a "friend in need for India.

We have been transferring weapon platforms and systems to you even in adverse international conditions," the Dassult CEO said.

He claimed all the French military supplies to India were coming without "any strings attached" unlike sales from US and Russia [Images].

*On Rafale sales offer to India, Edelstennie said this was not the only gesture made by the French. "A couple of years ago we thrice made an offer to India to transfer the entire Mirage-2000 assembly lines and also the entire export rights of the fighters," he said. "We see and feel the regret now. It was a golden opportunity which your then government did not utilize," the French CEO claimed.
*
Edelastennie asserted that unlike the US fighters in contention for the Indian contract, Rafale was a generation ahead. "It is fulfilling the needs and tasks of the French air force and navy globally."

On installation of a AESA radar on the Rafale fighters as stated by the Indian fighter tender, he said a French version of the radar had been developed by the Thales company and would be in full production in the aircraft by 2012.

On the Mirage-2000 upgrade, the French executive said his company had made a proposal to India and currently negotiations were on. Asked if the estimated price tag of 1.5 billion euro for the upgrade was not too high, Edelstennie said "We have come to negotiations and let us see how the final picture would emerge".

On booming sales of his Falcon 7x900DX and 2000lx business jets sales in India, he said "the sales have been on the upward swing and we hope that they get more bigger soon".


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## Ammyy

soaringphnx said:


> From what I understand, the French are proposing it as an interim arrangement as they feel that there may be delays in the MRCA induction. They are offering to provide 40 Rafales in a short span to help the IAF curb it's force depletion. This offer seems to be separate from the MRCA.



But by this logic if we dnt select Rafales then only for these 40 jets we have to maintain technology and made some changes according to them .... i think if India`s dnt want to select Rafales for MRCA so IAF dnt want only 40 jets


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## karan.1970

BENNY said:


> France offers to supply 40 Rafale fighters to IAF
> 
> 
> 
> *France offers to supply 40 Rafale fighters to IAF​*



^^ Strong business accumen if I ever saw one.


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## soaringphnx

@ benny

What's the difference between your post and mine??


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## soaringphnx

If IAF doesn't choose the Rafale in MRCA, IMO they should atleast accept this offer. Of course, that would mean more platforms which equals more headaches for IAF.... If the IAF were to select the Rafale, this offer would be quite a logical decision to curb force depletions. It also gives us some leverage to bargain.


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## flanker143

i heard french offered to integrate kaveri engines in rafale for mmrca ??

is it true ?? plz tel ....


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## soaringphnx

flanker143 said:


> i heard french offered to integrate kaveri engines in rafale for mmrca ??
> 
> is it true ?? plz tel ....



As far as I know, true.


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## Hulk

We should go for Rafael, I feel so. The french experience in the past has been better.


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## flanker143

for me both eu fighters are more or less the same .... but the point is we want them fast !!!


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## karan.1970

This may also be a result of France realizing that India is not going to go with Rafael and hence trying to fill in the time gap between now and delivery of the MRCA planes. Hence the reference to the similarity in Mirage 2000-9 and Rafael from running costs perspective.


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## soaringphnx

flanker143 said:


> for me both eu fighters are more or less the same .... but the point is we want them fast !!!



This offer gives us an opportunity to do just that!


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## Dash

Its better if we can stick to MRCA, and whetever the outcome is will be better for us.

We dont know what price tag rafale will carry for only 40 fighters, and as per depleting force levels, then we can actually go for the 65 Mirages from Saudi. That will be better...but not these....


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## Chaluboy

Dash said:


> Its better if we can stick to MRCA, and whetever the outcome is will be better for us.
> 
> We dont know what price tag rafale will carry for only 40 fighters, and as per depleting force levels, then we can actually go for the 65 Mirages from Saudi. That will be better...but not these....



agree with dash


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## sancho

anathema said:


> Source Reteurs --
> 
> PARIS, April 15 (Reuters) - Saudi Arabia has reached a memorandum of understanding with France to buy *48 Rafale* aircraft from Dassault Aviation (AVMD.PA: Quote, Profile, Research) , *with an option for a further 48*, French business daily Les Echos said on Friday.
> The deal for the multi-role fighters, estimated to be worth up to 6 billion euros ($7.72 billion), could be finalised by the end of the year, the newspaper said.
> 
> 
> Source Bloomberg --
> 
> April 15 (Bloomberg) -- Dassault Aviation SA shares rose as
> much as 4.2 percent after Les Echos reported Saudi Arabia is
> planning an order for *as many as 96* of the company's Rafale combat



And because you don't thrust arab sources, one more western:



> Financial Times (April 15/05)  Saudis pledge to buy French jets in â¬6bn deal. Saudi Arabia has agreed in principle to acquire up to *96 Rafale* combat aircraft from Frances Dassault Aviation for some â¬*6bn*, Les Echos, the FTs French sister newspaper, has learnt. The agreement forms the cornerstone of a broader defence, security and industrial accord estimated to be worth up to â¬20bn ($26bn, Â£14bn) signed during a meeting in Paris yesterday between Jacques Chirac, French president, and Crown Prince Abdullah, Saudi Arabias de facto ruler.



As you can see it was 6 billions for 96 Rafales.




anathema said:


> Good question ...I dont know the answer. But what i can do is guess from published reports -->
> 
> 1) Rafale is considered as more expensive than EF. -- Although there are no confirmed reports and everybody has their own version.
> 2) The deal for EF with saudi was only a small part of big deal. Saudi's were negotiating a 40 Billion pound deal with UK...for upgrading their existing weaponery , tornadoes , etc....One can only guess how much you can bargain when you have a deal of this magnitude going on ....and pretty much UK has a huge say in european consortium...I am betting bucks...if India would have been in Saudi's place then we would have dragged the price further down.



Rafale was never more expensive, it always was quoted as slightly cheaper! So that point doesn't fit here and as you can see also, the Rafale deal had also side deals, that would have gone up to 20 billions in total. However, lets wait and see when real numbers for us will come out.




anathema said:


> Weapon trials were supposed to happen in country of origin ..atleast thats what was in the plan. I am pretty sure that i read reports about security/safety concerns with Foreign weapons coming to India. Two teams of IAF went to coutries of origin and tested out the weapons on each and every aircraft. This included flying and weapon testing on Gripen.. which version of Gripen -- i dont have access to that info. But i am pretty much sure they would have had access to Gripen Demo in Sweden including weapon testing on simulators and aircraft.



That's not correct, the vendors had the choice to come to India to make the weapon trials, or to field them in their own countires. It was reported that the Gripen D, the Mig and AFAIK also the US fighters made them in India (not completely sure about Rafale, but I think it made it in India too). The EF that came to India was from German Luftwaffe and these are less developed for A2G, that's why the consortium said from the beginning, that the weapon trials will be fielded in UK, with british EFs. 




anathema said:


> I pointed that out not because of your selection but because IN opted for Mig 29K with no confirmation on A2G roles. So there is definetly more to it than meets the eye when we say it hasnt proven itself in A2G. The fact that Mig 29 is proven platform was enough for IN to order it for naval aviation (coupled with fact that Russian arm twisting also did the trick but thats besides the point). Like i said ..the platform has proven itself...if a aircraft is undergoing modifications that doesnt mean it has to prove all over again for each and every quality of the aircraft.



Just like you said, IN had no real choice to buy other fighters that these Mig 29K. It was a combined deal and there wer not many other fighters that could be used from Gorshkov, or Vikrant and that's why the limited A2G capabilities doesn't matter that much for them.
IAF instead has the option of 6 different fighters to supplemtent the exsisting fleet, that's why they have totally different options to set the requirements


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## sancho

karan.1970 said:


> This may also be a result of France realizing that India is not going to go with Rafael and hence trying to fill in the time gap between now and delivery of the MRCA planes. Hence the reference to the similarity in Mirage 2000-9 and Rafael from running costs perspective.



Actually this news is not new, they offered us this even last year as an appetizer to go for Rafale in MMRCA. So it's just old news brought up again because of the recent exercise.


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## sancho

Google translated article, form a French newspaper:



> *France continues its efforts to sell the Rafale in India*
> Le Point , June 25
> 
> 
> 3 squadrons of the Indian Air Force participated this week in the Garuda exercise at Istres, the fourth conduit in common with the French air force.This year, Singapore's F-16 aircraft were involved. At Istres, the Indians have deployed six Sukhoi SU-30, three Ilyushin Il 78 and one Ilyushin Il 76. Officially, nobody speaks about the exercice in the preparation for a huge contract for the Indian Air Force, although the competition is in everyone's mind. Called MMRCA (Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft), it was launched in 2008. It is estimated at 12 billion dollars for 126 aircraft, including 18 imported ready to fly, and 108 locally manufactured. While the Indian government typically requires that the arms contracts signed with foreign companies are translated into compensation agreements ensuring that 30% of the value of the contract is retroceded to local firms, *this share increased to 50% under the contract MMRCA*. France, Russia and the United States, all contestants, compete with kindness towards the Indian Air Force and organize with her many exercises. The Germans have recently announced their intention to hold similar exercises to push the EF Typhoon 2000. At this stage, industry invited to submit proposals are:
> - GIE Rafale (France) : : Dassault-Aviation, associated with Safran and Thales (for respective shares of 37.5%, 25%, 37.5%) suggested the most advanced version of the only French fighter, the Rafale F3, always in search of its first export contract. In April 2009, the Rafale had been excluded from the bidding , before being returned. But the French plane is an outsider. In January 2008, while visiting India, Nicolas Sarkozy had said: " I'm also working on the plane that did not sell." He is expected again in New Delhi at the end of this year, especially for pushing this issue. *The French president is also expected to discuss during his visit to the modernization of the fifty Mirage 2000-H already in possession of the Indian Air Force. This contract of $ 2 billion is subject to competition with the Israeli Elbit Systems industry.Thales currently seems favorite, but the final decision is not taken.*
> - Lockheed Martin (USA) offers the F-16IN Block 70 Super-Viper, APG-80 radar with AESA. Lockheed Martin dangled in India for the future, a purchase of its F-35 fighter, yet impractical due to technology transfer required by New Delhi what the U.S. are not giving to their current partners in this program (Australia, Canada, Denmark, Israel, Italy, Norway, Netherlands, United Kingdom, Singapore, Turkey).
> - Boeing (USA): F/A-18E/F Super Hornet Block 2. The U.S. firm has just affected in India Bob Gower, who was previously vice president of the F/A-18 program, a sign of the importance it attaches to the contract.
> - Saab JAS-39IN Gripen (Sweden).
> - Mikoyan Gurevich Mig 35 (Russia).
> 
> The Indian Air Force transport is also, courted by the manufacturers. Last January, the Indian government had placed an order for six Airbus A330 MRTT tanker, before canceling the contract, considered too expensive. He is now preparing to buy for the same price ($ 1.5 billion) the same number of U.S. tanker aircraft KC-130J, a freighter versions of the C-130J Hercules from Lockheed Martin. India has already ordered these last years six C-130J Lockheed Martin for its special forces, $ 1.2 billion.
> 
> 
> In addition, the Air Force has wanted to replace a twenty year old Ilyushin 76, and acquire a first time ten strategic airlift. *She rejected the offer for the Airbus A400M*, and turned to C-17 Globemaster III aircraft produced by Boeing, for a price ranging between 4 billion and 6 billion dollars, according to estimates. A second order for ten aircraft could follow. A first unit has just arrived on site for testing and evaluation by Indian pilots, but no contract is yet signed. New Delhi must still pass a formal order, which must be accepted by the Obama administration and by Congress.



The French seems to start pushing the Rafale in MMRCA now, MBDA partnerships on Maitri SAM and other MBDA weapon. Joint excersises this and next year and 2 visits of Sarkozy this year.
Also interesting that the upgrading for M2Ks is between Elbit and Thales and not between Elta (2032 radars, EWS of MKI), or Rafael (Python V missile, litening pod). 
Btw, does anybody now about the rejection of A400M?


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## jha

indianrabbit said:


> We should go for Rafael, I feel so. *The french experience in the past has been better*.



not that good experience...SCORPENE is a good example of how everybody starts taking advantage of us ....

Evenafter Scorpene scandal i am all for RAFALE..however this offer does not surprise me...many lucrative offers will be pouring with the D-day coming near..now just wait for american counter offer...
who knows they may supply their own F-18 to us for stop gap measure..

If Rafale is a hot contender after the trials then we should not waste any more time and order these 40 plus the mirages which saudis and kuwait are selling..
126 Rafale + (51+ 72) Mirages ..enough to care of our loving neighbor...other one can be countered with russian stuff. feel free to disagree


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## soaringphnx

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> A 3-D thrust vector engine is offered for the F-16 IN by LM.



Is this true? Can anyone verify this?


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## jha

No..i dont think so...

F-16IN uses General Electric F110-132A engine with 143 kN full reheat thrust 
And F110 does not possess 3-d thrust vector imo..


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## flanker143

> not that good experience...SCORPENE is a good example of how everybody starts taking advantage of us ....
> 
> Evenafter Scorpene scandal i am all for RAFALE..however this offer does not surprise me...many lucrative offers will be pouring with the D-day coming near..now just wait for american counter offer...
> who knows they may supply their own F-18 to us for stop gap measure..
> 
> If Rafale is a hot contender after the trials then we should not waste any more time and order these 40 plus the mirages which saudis and kuwait are selling..
> 126 Rafale + (51+ 72) Mirages ..enough to care of our loving neighbor...other one can be countered with russian stuff. feel free to disagree



he is talking about the experience with mirage 2000 jets.....which has been gud !!!


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## Hulk

karan.1970 said:


> This may also be a result of France realizing that India is not going to go with Rafael and hence trying to fill in the time gap between now and delivery of the MRCA planes. Hence the reference to the similarity in Mirage 2000-9 and Rafael from running costs perspective.



If not rafael which one do you think we are going for? I see nothing.


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## Ammyy

indianrabbit said:


> If not rafael which one do you think we are going for? I see nothing.



Euro fighter 

Best in 4.5 Gen


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## sancho

jha said:


> No..i dont think so...
> 
> F-16IN uses General Electric F110-132A engine with 143 kN full reheat thrust
> And F110 does not possess 3-d thrust vector imo..



They had an experimental version of the F 16 with TVC, which never entered serial production, but I never saw a report about it on offer for F16IN.


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## sancho

Some interesting news from the Swiss competition:



> *Rafale for Switzerland, the Dassault program *
> Avia News , June 23
> 
> *The industrial partnership:*
> 
> The industrials of the consortium Rafale International - consisting of Dassault Aviation, Snecma (Safran Group) and Thales - MBDA and their subcontractors are able to offer to Switzerland an industrial and scientific cooperation for the benefit of all cantons [counties] . The offer is affecting the whole range of suppliers ie: the military with the Rafale, but also the civilian sector which includes programs for Falcon business jets, civilian engines CFM56 and avionics for Aircraft and helicopters.
> 
> Some elements of the Rafale are already built in Switzerland (cockpit windows, fuel tank and more recently additional elements of the radar Thales RBE2).
> 
> *The offer includes the outsourcing of many structural components, final assembly and maintenance in Switzerland for all of the Rafale program and also research and development. The manufacture of weapons ( MICA missiles) is proposed and also the development of the helmet-mounted sight GERFAUT, are also concerned systems such as the system of self-protection SPECTRA and FSO.
> 
> France assures to Switzerland the access to all technologies used in the aircraft including development tools, source code and the most sensitive data. *
> 
> *Optimized for Switzerland:*
> 
> According to Dassault, the Rafale is the aircraft best suited to our country, because as a neighbor collaboration with both military and industry are promoted. In addition, the latest version (F3 +) tested in Switzerland fulfilled 95% of the specifications and offers the following possibilities:
> 
> * Flight capability in "supercruise" mode.
> * Short take-off distance.
> * Prolonged range and capacity allowing long surveillance missions.
> * Fast implementation including by soldiers of militia.
> * Easy integration into structures already built.
> 
> *Multisensor system proposed:*
> 
> The proposed version of the Rafale for our country is the most recent available, the standard F3+ (sometimes identified F4) This version is not yet in service, but was ordered by the Air Force and Navy end-December 2009 for 60 copies. The aircraft features:
> 
> * AESA radar Thales RBE-2AA.
> * System autoprotection SPECTRA.
> * New generation FSO (Front Sector Optronic).
> * Last generation link 16 (MIDS).
> * NCW Data fusion system (Net Centric Warfare).
> 
> In terms of propulsion, it is not excluded that a more powerful version of SNECMA M-88 will be available (to be confirmed).
> 
> *Cooperation for military training:*
> 
> Switzerland is already training regularly with the French Air Force (air refueling and EPERVIER exercice) in the case of acquisition of the Rafale by our country, our pilots would also have flight simulators as well as several sectors of flight training inside the French territory. Moreover, the air base 113 Saint-Dizier would be open to our pilots.
> *
> Comments:*
> 
> Although not a favorite in early trials, the F3 + version has demonstrated its excellent capabilities and has perfectly fulfilled the specifications. In addition, Dassault people were able to conduct a remarkable campaign both on technical and interpersonal ground. The Rafale has today many assets that could very well help it to win the Swiss market!




Interesting that they offer even Swiss much ToT and coops in development, but even more interesting is that the even the new M88-4E (slightly improved M88-2) seems to have proved SC capabilities, although they are not confirmed yet. But if UAE funds the M88-3 with 90kN thrust, I think we can expect SC for sure too, one more feature that would be available for us.


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## anathema

sancho said:


> Some interesting news from the Swiss competition:
> 
> Interesting that they offer even Swiss much ToT and coops in development, but even more interesting is that the even the new M88-4E (slightly improved M88-2) seems to have proved SC capabilities, although they are not confirmed yet. But if UAE funds the M88-3 with 90kN thrust, I think we can expect SC for sure too, one more feature that would be available for us.



If Saudi does go for Rafale with more thrust ...then i guess it will be similar to F16 IN...i mean they will charge some royalty for a new version of Rafale..i guess...


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## jha

^^ only if they seal the deal before us and we buy the technology developed with the UAE money...


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## sancho

anathema said:


> If Saudi does go for Rafale with more thrust ...then i guess it will be similar to F16 IN...i mean they will charge some royalty for a new version of Rafale..i guess...



 Again you confuses Saudi Arabia and UAE! What do you mean with similar to F16IN?


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## anathema

sancho said:


> And because you don't thrust arab sources, one more western:
> 
> As you can see it was 6 billions for 96 Rafales.



Well ..7 Billion odd dollares for 40 odd aircrafts checks with 4 Billion odd dollars of 30 odd aircrafts for Brazil... There is no way there can be so much difference. I guess we just have to agree to disagree on this topic...




sancho said:


> Rafale was never more expensive, it always was quoted as slightly cheaper! So that point doesn't fit here and as you can see also, the Rafale deal had also side deals, that would have gone up to *20 billions in total*. However, lets wait and see when real numbers for us will come out.



Like i said there are no confirmed reports which one is more expensive ...i have seen some charts which suggested Rafale is more expensive...But we will never know till Rafale clinches its first export order. 

The 20 Billion pound deal was precisely the deal that went to UK (Bae systems , euro consortium)...France did not get anything from Saudi's -- atleast then. 20 Billion pounds ....Arms corporations would give their leg to get this contract. 

If you check the below link from Telegraph....it says ..that Saudi's are buying 48 Typhoon (similar to Rafale) for 8 billion odd dollars. The Saudi has a further option to increase the fighters 72 Aircrafts. This again checks with the fact that price range of Rafale and Typhoon are pretty similar. 

Link - BAE shares soar on £20billion jet deal with Saudis - Telegraph

* "The Saudis are understood to have agreed to buy 48 Typhoon fighters in the initial stages, rising to as many as 72 jets over 10 years."*

Saudi Arabia takes control of Typhoon combat jets

*"The two combat aircraft -- produced by a BAE Systems-led consortium of European firms -- were the first out of an order for an eventual 72 fighters, worth up to 38.6 billion dollars, including armaments and long-term servicing."*


Anyways leads me to believe that Typhoon is no less expensive than Rafale. 



sancho said:


> That's not correct, the vendors had the choice to come to India to make the weapon trials, or to field them in their own countires. It was reported that the Gripen D, the Mig and AFAIK also the US fighters made them in India (not completely sure about Rafale, but I think it made it in India too). The EF that came to India was from German Luftwaffe and these are less developed for A2G, that's why the consortium said from the beginning, that the weapon trials will be fielded in UK, with british EFs.




Gripen did weapon trials in Sweden. Saab website and presentation had that listed. I think F16 and typhoon did in origin countries...i dont know about Rafale.






sancho said:


> *Just like you said, IN had no real choice to buy other fighters that these Mig 29K*. It was a combined deal and there wer not many other fighters that could be used from Gorshkov, or Vikrant and that's why *the limited A2G capabilities *doesn't matter that much for them.
> IAF instead has the option of 6 different fighters to supplemtent the exsisting fleet, that's why they have totally different options to set the requirements



Common Sancho thats a strawman. There are no confirmed reports that IN was forced to buy Mig 29K. So speculation is out of the window. What is left and real and published is that IN is buying Mig 29K. For the sake of national security i dont think we would be buying any equipment (of vital importance) if it didnt meet our criteria !! 

Further IN could have limited the Mig 29K order to just 16 (the initial contract) if it so limited in its role and was forced into buying it...but IN went ahead recently and ordered more (29 i believe - not sure)..This would not have happened if it was limited in its role. 

There is no limited A2G capabilities - even IAF has choosen to upgrade its Mig 29 to SMT standards to make it a multirole aircraft.


----------



## anathema

sancho said:


> Again you confuses Saudi Arabia and UAE! What do you mean with similar to F16IN?



Damn the bloody hell...i dont whats with me and UAE, Saudi...both are so similar ...anyways....i meant blck 60. Since a gulf nation (note i am avoiding calling the country by name , no more confusion) is charging royalty....i am pretty sure it would be applicable in our case also.

---------- Post added at 12:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:08 PM ----------




jha said:


> ^^ only if they seal the deal before us and we buy the technology developed with the UAE money...



Trust our BABU's to do the 'Delaying' job of signing the deal.


----------



## sancho

Hi, have not the time to answer in detail now, so a fast reply only. 



anathema said:


> Well ..7 Billion odd dollares for 40 odd aircrafts checks with 4 Billion odd dollars of 30 odd aircrafts for Brazil... There is no way there can be so much difference. I guess we just have to agree to disagree on this topic...



Saudi was system price including training spares... and as I pointed out the offer was for 96 Rafales, the system price for 36 Rafale in Brazil is expected at close to $10 billons, not $4.




anathema said:


> Like i said there are no confirmed reports which one is more expensive ...i have seen some charts which suggested Rafale is more expensive...But we will never know till Rafale clinches its first export order.



Of course there are, you can compare the costs that the EF members pay and what France pay, you can compare the offers for Saudi, or in Austria, Singapore before, even now in the Swiss competition is was reported that the EF is the costliest fighter.




anathema said:


> *The 20 Billion pound* deal was precisely the deal that went to UK (Bae systems , euro consortium)...France did not get anything from Saudi's -- atleast then. 20 Billion pounds ....Arms corporations would give their leg to get this contract.



The sign was for EURO not pounds, so it's not the same!



anathema said:


> *Gripen did weapon trials in Sweden. Saab website and presentation had that listed.* I think F16 and typhoon did in origin countries...i dont know about Rafale.



Link?



anathema said:


> Common Sancho thats a strawman. There are no confirmed reports that IN was forced to buy Mig 29K. So speculation is out of the window. What is left and real and published is that IN is buying Mig 29K. For the sake of national security i dont think we would be buying any equipment (of vital importance) if it didnt meet our criteria !!



You should google about it! The carrier came free, we only had to pay for the refurbishment and the 16 Mig 29K/KUBs! 



anathema said:


> Further IN could have limited the Mig 29K order to just 16 (the initial contract) if it so limited in its role and was forced into buying it...but IN went ahead recently and ordered more (29 i believe - not sure)..This would not have happened if it was limited in its role.



As I said in my last post, they had nearly no other option! The only other fighter that could be able to be used on STOBAR carriers should be the Rafale, but it comes with twice the costs that the Mig 29 costs and of course totally new spares and weapons, which means additional costs for IN. So ordering additional Migs for these medium class carriers makes sens, even if they are not that capable. The bigger carrier that is planed for 2018, is meant for different roles, IN for sure will go for more capabale fighter then and not for Migs anymore.



anathema said:


> There is no limited A2G capabilities - even IAF has choosen to upgrade its Mig 29 to SMT standards to make it a multirole aircraft.



They extended the life of the Migs, to keep them in service for another 10-15 years, but for sure not because its A2G capabilities. Low numbers of weapon station, low payload, mainly light A2G weapon loads...
As I said, even the single engine Gripen NG, will be better in this field than the Mig 35!

So much for now, G8!


----------



## Justin Joseph

*US wants India to 'favourably' consider IAF's MMRCA bid*

WASHINGTON (PTI): As India seeks to modernise its air force, the US has pushed for greater share for American manufacturers of high-technology products and services like the Boeing and Lockheed in a bid to boost bilateral defence, commercial and trade relations.

US Commerce Secretary Gary Locke, during his meeting with Union Minister of Commerce and Industry Anand Sharma, argued that American manufacturers Boeing and Lockheed are dependable providers of high-technology products and services.

In the meeting early this week on the sidelines of the Indo-US CEOs Forum in Washington DC, the top Obama administration official urged India to favourably consider the aircraft bids by Boeing and Lockheed, who are seeking to sell their aircrafts and fighter aircraft to the Indian Air force.

Locke said the US is looking to India to set a trajectory for economic, trade and investment growth in the near-and medium-term.

"A clear plan would encourage expanded US-India commercial activity - the kind of activity that would make good on the potential it holds for both our peoples," he said.

"Locke took the opportunity to advocate for US fighter aircraft manufacturers, noting that the US government supports Boeing and Lockheed Martin bids because they have proven to be dependable providers of high-technology products and services - including aircraft - in the Indian defence sector," the US Commerce Department said.

Both Boeing and Lockheed have placed bids for aircrafts and fighter aircraft as the Indian forces seek to modernise the fleet of aircraft.

"The Indian government's medium, multi-role combat aircraft competition is tremendously important to the US with vital implications for our bilateral defence, commercial and trade relations," it said.

In 2009, the US exported approximately $ 16.5 billion in goods to India, making it our 17th-largest exporting partner.

The principal US exports to India are precious stones, metals, machinery, aircraft, spacecraft, electrical machinery and fertilisers.

As of 2008, India had invested $ 4.5 billion into the United States.

The Department of Commerce's International Trade Administration can help US companies increase their trade with India, offering such services as trade counselling, market intelligence
, business matchmaking and commercial diplomacy.

US wants India to 'favourably' consider IAF's MMRCA bid :: Brahmand.com

To hell with USA how can they try to pressurize a competition also where was the USA at the time of china-pak nuke deal why don't they stop it through pressure or NSG.


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## SpArK

Justin Joseph said:


> *US wants India to 'favourably' consider IAF's MMRCA bid*
> 
> WASHINGTON (PTI): As India seeks to modernise its air force, the US has pushed for greater share for American manufacturers of high-technology products and services like the Boeing and Lockheed in a bid to boost bilateral defence, commercial and trade relations.
> 
> US Commerce Secretary Gary Locke, during his meeting with Union Minister of Commerce and Industry Anand Sharma, argued that American manufacturers Boeing and Lockheed are dependable providers of high-technology products and services.
> 
> In the meeting early this week on the sidelines of the Indo-US CEOs Forum in Washington DC, the top Obama administration official urged India to favourably consider the aircraft bids by Boeing and Lockheed, who are seeking to sell their aircrafts and fighter aircraft to the Indian Air force.
> 
> Locke said the US is looking to India to set a trajectory for economic, trade and investment growth in the near-and medium-term.
> 
> "A clear plan would encourage expanded US-India commercial activity - the kind of activity that would make good on the potential it holds for both our peoples," he said.
> 
> "Locke took the opportunity to advocate for US fighter aircraft manufacturers, noting that the US government supports Boeing and Lockheed Martin bids because they have proven to be dependable providers of high-technology products and services - including aircraft - in the Indian defence sector," the US Commerce Department said.
> 
> Both Boeing and Lockheed have placed bids for aircrafts and fighter aircraft as the Indian forces seek to modernise the fleet of aircraft.
> 
> "The Indian government's medium, multi-role combat aircraft competition is tremendously important to the US with vital implications for our bilateral defence, commercial and trade relations," it said.
> 
> In 2009, the US exported approximately $ 16.5 billion in goods to India, making it our 17th-largest exporting partner.
> 
> The principal US exports to India are precious stones, metals, machinery, aircraft, spacecraft, electrical machinery and fertilisers.
> 
> As of 2008, India had invested $ 4.5 billion into the United States.
> 
> The Department of Commerce's International Trade Administration can help US companies increase their trade with India, offering such services as trade counselling, market intelligence
> , business matchmaking and commercial diplomacy.
> 
> US wants India to 'favourably' consider IAF's MMRCA bid :: Brahmand.com
> 
> To hell with USA how can they try to pressurize a competition also where was the USA at the time of china-pak nuke deal why don't they stop it through pressure or NSG.



*No favors.. let the deal go to Europe.. *


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## soaringphnx

BENNY said:


> *No favors.. let the deal go to Europe.. *



I would like to respectfully disagree. I think we are doing ourselves a favour by opting for the European fighters..


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## karan.1970

^^Not gonna happen.. Super Bug it will be (Though I would love a rafael or EuroJet instead). Too much political and diplomatic capital at stake here. The backroom deals would be way ahead of what we hear in the news


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## Mirza Jatt

why the extra consideration ??? we are already buying many of the Boeing and Lockheed stuff.


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## karan.1970

Indian Jatt said:


> why the extra consideration ??? we are already buying many of the Boeing and Lockheed stuff.



Same holds true for the French and Russian stuff. At the end of the day, all the contenders are more or less in the same league (except the F 16 may be). GoI will try and maximize the diplomatic capital gains from here I guess.


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## flanker143

WANT A EXTREMELY GOOD AIR SUP FIGHTER ~~GO FOR EF TYPHOON

WANT A BOMB TRUCK ~~ TAKE F18SH

WANT BOTH ~~GO FOR RAFALE ...BEST ....."MULTI ROLE" BUT NOT THE BEST AIR SUP FIGHTER (EFT) OR BOMB TRUCK(SH) AVAILABLE....

HAS GUD AIR TO AIR AND AIR TO GROUND CAPABILITIES......


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## sancho

BENNY said:


> *No favors.. let the deal go to Europe.. *


Everybody is using it's advantages to convince us, the US with political advantages, the European with ToT and the Russian with cheap unit costs and customization.


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## SpArK

sancho said:


> Everybody is using it's advantages to convince us, the US with political advantages, the European with ToT and the Russian with cheap unit costs and customization.



Well some sort of PR was expected from US in 2-3 days time for the recent events in the region ( delivery of 4 f-16).

Its a good marketing strategy.

Im all for Rafale or EF..


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## Agnostic_Indian

We should avoid f16 and f18 at any cost.they got no future and comes with strings also.


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## sancho

BENNY said:


> Well some sort of PR was expected from US in 2-3 days time for the recent events in the region ( delivery of 4 f-16).
> 
> Its a good marketing strategy.
> 
> Im all for Rafale or EF..



Yes, Rafale is the best option, but I would chose the Gripen NG, over the EF.


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## vishal

sancho said:


> Yes, Rafale is the best option, but I would chose the Gripen NG, over the EF.




i think EF with TVC would be bst 
Gripen NG shares most of the features with our very own LCA Mk2


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## soaringphnx

vishal said:


> i think EF with TVC would be bst
> Gripen NG shares most of the features with our very own LCA Mk2



The MiG-35 is a further development of the MiG-29K ordered by the Indian Navy. MiG-29s are already operated by the IAF, so these can be inducted with minimal expenditure and changes to infrastructure. It supposedly has smokeless engines and comes with the Zhuk AE AESA. 3D TVC comes as an option. There is the possibility that we may get a customised version like the Su-30MKI, though this would in my opinion only slow induction. Going by experience, the price will be low, but according to wikipedia, "product support for the MiG-29 has been less than adequate". Russia is willing to offer "full" ToT, though I doubt this would help as India already has access to most of it's techs through other deals like the FGFA. The MiG-35's future is uncertain with no orders from any country (including Russia). Choosing the MiG-35 also means relying on Russia for almost the whole of India's combat fleet. It is likely that the IAF will look for European or American (not recommended) fighters for political benifits and access to western tech.

The F-16IN has been described by Lockheed Martin as, &#8220;the most advanced and capable F-16 ever&#8221;. The F-16 has been around for nearly 40 years but it still commands respect among the experts. It is combat proven, has operated in all parts of the world in very demanding conditions. According to some reports, Lockheed MArtin has offered the F-35 as replacements in future if the F-16 is selected. However, will Lockheed Martin keep the F-16 production line open long enough and provide us with a reliable source of spares? This can be solved if Lockheed Martin transfers the entire assembly line to India as once offered for the F-5. However, some reports indicate that the Indian Air Force is not too interested in buying the F-16, since the Pakistan Air Force already operates the same type, and, having had exercises along with F-16s of the USAF, RSAF and other air forces. In fact, Lockheed Martin is willing to supply more advanced to the F-16s. However, the Chinese operate the Su-30MKK and Su-27, but that did not stop India from buying Su-30MKIs from Russia. There is also a fear of sanctions and limited ToT. At any rate, I don't feel this is the best option as there are more capable fighters in the competition.

EFT has been offered with TVC - a huge plus. It has the ability to supercruise though it is still to be seen if it possible with full weapons load. The EFT's EJ200 is one of the engines under consideration for the LCA. It uses less American components, so it offers more ToT and less chances for sanctions. India has been offered to join the European consortum, though not as an equal member. EFT is more capable than the Rafale (and possibly all other contenders) in air-to-air combat, but the IAF already have Su-30MKI for this role. So it is most likely that the decision will probably be for a ground-attack fighter. While the EFT does have air to ground abilities, the rafale and the F-18 offers more in this area. The EFT's Captor AESA Radar is still under development. EFT is also the costliest fighter in the competition.

The Gripen has good air-to-air and air-to-ground abilities and is cheap - so it will be choosen if the IAF is looking for a cheap, easy to maintain fighter. It has the ability to supercruise though it is still to be seen if it possible with full weapons load. SAAB has offered source codes of it's AESA - a huge plus point. It is powered by the General Electric F414, one of the engines under consideration for the LCA. However, it uses American components (including engine), so there is a small risk of sanctions. The Gripen gives competition to our home made LCA. It also doesn't give us much geopolitical benefits.

The F-18 is an old but proven platform. It offers the best air to ground abilities of all the contenders. It's AESA has spurred the interest of the IAF. It's General Electric F414 is one of the engines under consideration for the LCA. It is carrier compatible. However, it is an old platform and though it is used by the US Navy, focus will be on the F-35. It comes with limited ToT and the fear of sanctions.

The Rafale (my choice) is a true multi-role fighter. It has good air to ground abilities while it does not compromise on air to air combat. It offers the best compromise between the F-18 and EFT. Since it is almost 100&#37; French, it can offer more ToT and less chance of sanctions. France has been a reliable arms supplier in the past. France has offered India the source codes if it's software - a huge plus. There has been an offer to integrate the Kaveri into the Rafale. It is carrier compatible. Though not stealth it has a reduced RCS. The French have indicated that they intend to go beyond a buyer-seller relationship (though they have not specified how). India already has Mirages, so less money needs to be spent on infrastructure changes and training. However, the AESA radar is not fully ready (as far as I know). Though pricey we may get a good deal since the French are desperate.

IMO, the Rafale is the best option if IAF is looking for a true multi-role fighter, the EFT for air-superiority, the Gripen for cost-effectiveness, the F-18 (not recommended) for pure strike ability and US relations.

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## flanker143

> IMO, the rafale is the best option if IAF is looking for true a multi-role fighter, the EFT for air-superiority, the Gripen for cost-effectiveness, the F-18 (not recommended) for pure strike ability and US relations.



thats what i am saying buddy ..... we dont need another air sup fighter with su 30 mki already in hand and pak fa comin in few years !!

we need fighter that has gud air to ground capability ...to replace those 27's and jags as lca will replace mig 21s and will be used for mainly air defense and ground attacks that are closer to home base !!


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## sancho

vishal said:


> i think EF with TVC would be bst
> Gripen NG shares most of the features with our very own LCA Mk2



TVC is just another feature that will benefit EF in the A2A role, where it already is very good, but where it lacks behind is the A2G role, even compared to Gripen NG and that's why I would choose Gripen NG over EF.
In A2A the Gripen will have the same radar, only in smaller size, the same AIM9/AIM120, or Iris-t/Meteor combo, delta canard design, for high manouverability and SC, just like the EF has. Why should we pay so much more per unit and in operational costs for the EF then?
The only advantages the EF has over Gripen NG has for India are, offsets, ToT and to more political influence, but if you compare just both fighters, it would be better for IAF.
However, the best choice is still the Rafale and just as you said the similarity of Gripen to LCA is also a point against it.


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## soaringphnx

Can anyone please tell me the status of Rafale's AESA?


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## flanker143

> Can anyone please tell me the status of Rafale's AESA?



testing phase is almost complete and may have low rate entered production .... as far as i know

may be this will help mate

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_channel.jsp?channel=defense&id=news/RADAR11048.xml


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## sancho

soaringphnx said:


> Can anyone please tell me the status of Rafale's AESA?



It is developed and was fielded in the trials of MMRCA, as well as the Swiss competition. The French forces will get it by 2012 and they will be the first European fighter to have an operational AESA radar. It is reported that it will have 1000 t/r modules, but I'm not sure abot the diameter of the radar. Many sources claim 50% range increase compared to the actual RBE 2 PESA, which means around 190Km against targets with a RCS of 3m². It also can detect 40 targets at the same time and engage up to 8 of them.
There might be better radars in the competition, but the RBE 2 AA is clearly a good option and offered with full ToT + source codes!

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## sancho

flanker143 said:


> testing phase is almost complete and may have low rate entered production .... as far as i know
> 
> may be this will help mate
> 
> Thales Begins Rafale AESA Production | AVIATION WEEK



Mate, that article is from 2008!


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## flanker143

> Mate, that article is from 2008!



still its good !! and what it said in 2008 is the current state of the radar in 2010


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## Sri

I found some interesting points from Brazil competition.
like Rafale was offered at 78m$ etc. pl check the info below




> The cost of the advance
> 
> It takes the government to decide which game will equip the Air Force delays plans for defense of the country and threatens the credibility of the negotiations with the three finalists
> 
> Claudio Dantas Smith and Octavio Costa
> 
> 
> 
> FIGHTING Factory Dassault: 36 fighters would cost $ 10 billion
> 
> The competition for the purchase of 36 fighter jets by the FAB, estimated at $ 10 billion, seems an endless novel. In the latest chapter, the Defense Minister Nelson Jobim announced further postponement in the selection of fighters, this time to January 2010. It said the reasons for and command of the FAB remain silent so as not to break the hierarchy. The cost of this uncertainty is enormous, because it affects not only the credibility of the negotiations and delay the defense plans of the country, which sees its airspace vulnerable. "You can not stay in this litany. Whether the political criterion, either by coach, you need to resolve them, "said retired Colonel Geraldo Cavagnari, the Center for Strategic Studies at Unicamp. He explains that, once decided to purchase, will run six months until the contract is signed. For the analyst of international security Gunther Rudz&#299;tis is necessary to prevent a repeat of the failure of the FX program, held over the last year of the Cardoso government, and finally canceled in 2003. Brazil is in urgent need of a generation of fighter aircraft to ensure the safety of the heavens and their wealth in the territorial sea. ISTO&#201; obtained confidential details of the offers of the finalists: the French Rafale from Dassault, the American F-18 Super Hornet, Boeing, and the Swedish Gripen NG, the Saab.
> 
> The report shows the FAB strengths and weaknesses of each plane using a color code (blue, yellow and red) instead of notes.
> 
> Of the three, the French jet introduced technology package more comprehensive and Swedish appears at first sight, had the best price. Your unit value, without the package of armaments and maintenance costs, is U.S. $ 50 million. It would be a good deal, not for the Gripen NG only one project in development. This makes it impossible to calculate their real costs and ensure compliance with deadlines. Despite the expectation of development together with Embraer, the dome of Defense knows that choosing the Gripen NG would be like signing a blank check. FAB this item marked in red. "You can not buy what is on the drawing board," warns Cavagnari. In fact, the historical records of the airline industry in the world attest to the instability of estimates on a plane is not yet operational. The F-18 Super Hornet, for example, showed average growth of 100&#37; between the amount originally planned pelosfabricantes and the final cost of the project, which reached U.S. $ 9.5 billion.
> 
> 
> SHADOWS The French Rafale is a fighter with more ability to remain invisible to enemy radar
> 
> Nevertheless, the U.S. fighter is offered today at a stable price of $ 55 million. In the case of the Rafale, to be fully operational, it took 7.5 billion euros (U.S. $ 10.9 billion), a difference of 50% over the initial estimate. Your unit price without arms and support was 94 million euros ($ 136 million) when he began to be sold, but then fell to 54 million euros ($ 78 million). This is the value offered to Brazil in the last proposal and even practiced by Dassault with the French government. Besides the price issue, raised by President Lula during the visit of French counterpart Nicolas Sarkozy ABrasilia in September, is at stake in the term. According Cavagnari, the defense sector is in the process of dismantling advanced, which began in 1995. "We have immediate needs of air power that must be addressed," he explains. Then there is another problem. FAB to receive the first aircraft in 2014. Who guarantees to deliver the request in a timely manner? Dassault is in the production line of Rafale heated by new orders from the French government, which gives security to meet the deadlines. The Boeingtradi&#231;&#227;o punctuality in sales of F-18. Already a Saab should take eight years to make their hunting operation. For example, the radar that will equip the Gripen began to be developed this year alone.
> 
> "To have an idea, Saab develops radar Caesar for the Typhoon fighter for five years and forecast to be ready is 2016. Now they say they can develop a similar radar, the Raven, to equip the Gripen NG, 2011. I find it unlikely, "said the expert Pedro Paulo Rezende. Another important point in the analysis of FAB is the cost of flight-hours. An airplane that consumes too much is not feasible in the long term. The time of flight of the F-18 is $ 11 thousand, while that of the Rafale is U.S. $ 14 mil. Since the Gripen, according to Saab, it would be $ 4 mil. But the Technical Committee of the FX-2 (Copac), from calculations based on data extrapolated maintenance Gripen C / D (prior to version NG), found a very different value: U.S. $ 8 mil. Similarly, Norway and the Netherlands, to assess the Swedish hunting, came to U.S. $ 10 mil. The divergence of information led to the FAB mark this item Gripen in yellow attention. The F-18 won blue for that matter, but reddened under "radar signature", which means tracking by enemy radar. The Rafale, according to official figures, the game is more "invisible" among competitors.



From Some brazilian news translated and posted to 
http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?t=95786&page=26

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## Dark Angel

> a difference of 50&#37; over the initial estimate. Your unit price without arms and support was 94 million euros ($ 136 million) when he began to be sold, but then fell to 54 million euros ($ 78 million). This is the value offered to Brazil in the last proposal and even practiced by Dassault with the French government




Interesting read


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## Sri

If we take the euro pricing i.e. 54m euro then its current conversion is 67 M $. which is pretty reasonable per unit price. 

And I feel the same (uncertainties) about NG. Any comments

Tx
Sri


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## maithil

Yes..one more advantage of euro fighters is that EURO is down now..so we'll be paying significantly less money if we order now...but then our NETAJEES will also get smaller kickbacks ..so possibility of this is LADDU..


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## sancho

Sri said:


> If we take the euro pricing i.e. 54m euro then its current conversion is 67 M $. which is pretty reasonable per unit price.
> 
> And I feel the same (uncertainties) about NG. Any comments
> 
> Tx
> Sri



Hi Sri, although this is good news for Rafale, we have to keep in mind that this is the fly away price, without weapons, training, spares..., if you add these Rafale should be above $100 millions again.

More interesting to me are different point of the report like:



> the French jet introduced technology package more comprehensive



or:



> The French Rafale is a fighter with more ability to remain invisible to enemy radar




But also some interesting points about Gripen NG that I claimed before too:



> Swedish appears at first sight, had the best price....the Gripen NG only one project in development. *This makes it impossible to calculate their real costs* and ensure compliance with deadlines. Despite the expectation of development together with Embraer, the dome of Defense knows that choosing the Gripen NG would be like signing a blank check. FAB this item marked in red. "You can not buy what is on the drawing board,"



also:



> Another important point in the analysis of FAB is the cost of flight-hours. An airplane that consumes too much is not feasible in the long term. The time of flight of the F-18 is $ 11 thousand, while that of the Rafale is U.S. $ 14 mil. Since the *Gripen, according to Saab, it would be $ 4 mil*. But the Technical Committee of the FX-2 (Copac), from calculations based on data extrapolated maintenance Gripen C / D (prior to version NG), *found a very different value: U.S. $ 8 mil.* Similarly, Norway and the Netherlands, to assess the Swedish hunting, *came to U.S. $ 10 mil.* The divergence of information led to the FAB mark this item Gripen in yellow attention.



As I always said, Gripen NG is undeniably the most cost-effective fighter, but most of its capabilities are only available on art work so far, or are in testing in the Demonstrator. It has not a single order yet and the operational calculations are made on basis of older Gripen version, but these proved to be wrong in several competitions, just like in Brazil now.
Keep in mind that it was offered in MMRCA with a cost per flight hour of just $3000 and it will be interesting to see where our calculations will end.
Besides that, the report confirmed Rafales technical advantage and after the report of ATLC exercise, it is the second time that its RCS is claimed to be very low. Then compared to EF, now compared to F18SH and even to the smaller Gripen NG, but as I said often too, its only downside are the costs.


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## calcutta

that active cancellation thing is bullshit . still doing its rounds in the labs . i don't know the exact mechanism ... it sounds like the suite tracks down the signals from the radar and emits such a signal itself after passing it through a 90 degree phase shift .. thus leading to destructive interference..... the result : to the radar it would seem the signal has passed through ... ie there is nothing to worry about......well sounds difficult..........believe it is as difficult as it sounds............best of luck to the French people.


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## Sri

Hi Sancho,

I agree with you about the per unit cost of Rafale 67m$ is without maintenance etc. but we should see that the cost of SH is 55 m$, NG 50 m$ what I mean to say is total package of all the fighters will still be very high unlike what has been claimed for NG. so when we are comparing the total package cost then all the fighters might be in similar factors.

i.e. sh might cost something like 100 - 120 m( as we need to buy everything), and rafale might cost 130-160 m $( we might save on some infra, weapons bcoz of mirage), and NG might cost around 100 m$ ( as we need to buy everything), what I mean to say total package of rafale might still be attractive.

comments pl

tx
sri


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## sancho

Sri said:


> Hi Sancho,
> 
> I agree with you about the per unit cost of Rafale 67m$ is without maintenance etc. but we should see that the cost of SH is 55 m$, NG 50 m$ what I mean to say is total package of all the fighters will still be very high unlike what has been claimed for NG. so when we are comparing the total package cost then all the fighters might be in similar factors.
> 
> i.e. sh might cost something like 100 - 120 m( as we need to buy everything), and rafale might cost 130-160 m $( we might save on some infra, weapons bcoz of mirage), and NG might cost around 100 m$ ( as we need to buy everything), what I mean to say total package of rafale might still be attractive.
> 
> comments pl
> 
> tx
> sri



True, the overall difference is not as big as it was before and that's what I meant with good news, the problem is still the high costs for French parts. We already will have similar weapons through upgraded M2Ks, but I hope we could integrate more Indian weapons like Astra soon too.
Latest news for Brazil seems that they want more fighters than the 36 they wanted at the beginning, their navy wants new carrier fighters too and they prefer Rafale as well.


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## trident2010

calcutta said:


> that active cancellation thing is bullshit . still doing its rounds in the labs . i don't know the exact mechanism ... it sounds like the suite tracks down the signals from the radar and emits such a signal itself after passing it through a *90 degree phase shift* .. thus leading to destructive interference..... the result : to the radar it would seem the signal has passed through ... ie there is nothing to worry about......well sounds difficult..........believe it is as difficult as it sounds............best of luck to the French people.




Its 180 degree phase shift mate !!  . However, it is very difficult to acheive it in real time as relative distance and other electrical parameters are not constant.


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## anathema

sancho said:


> True, the overall difference is not as big as it was before and that's what I meant with good news, the problem is still the high costs for French parts. We already will have similar weapons through upgraded M2Ks, but I hope we could integrate more Indian weapons like Astra soon too.
> Latest news for Brazil seems that they want more fighters than the 36 they wanted at the beginning, their navy wants new carrier fighters too and they prefer Rafale as well.



Sri/Sancho,

I again state that Rafale/EF is just too expensive. Whether India will go these planes is a different matter altogether.

Compare this in 1998 UAE negotiated with US for 80 F16C/D's --

UAE to Purchase 80 F-16C/Ds, Arms in Deal Worth $7 Billion

*"REPRESENTING ONE of the largest and most expensive sales of U.S. fighter aircraft this decade, the United Arab Emirates (UAE) announced on May 12 that it will purchase 80 F-16C/D fighters, including weapons and support systems, worth an estimated $7 billion."
*

Now compare the US Navy Super Hornet deal --

Navy to buy 124 Boeing Super Hornets for $5.4B - St. Louis Business Journal

*
"The U.S. Navy said it plans to enter into a multi-year procurement deal with Boeing to buy 124 F/A-18 Super Hornet fighter jets for $5.4 billion"*

Even if you include weapon systems/ToT/blah blah...and you double the deal it still is 10.8 billion dollars.

Now compare this with Rafale deal....36 aircraft for 10 Billion (not sure if this is the figure).... Even if the deal is for 5 Billion dollars sorry it still is way too expensive !

If India is prepared to spend big bucks - then great -- we can buy Rafale (my personal fav)...but if it involves bidding process then tata bye bye Rafale. Same case with EF.

From a cost wise we only have F16, F18 and Gripen. I have ruled Mig 35 - but you can put it back on ....


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## anathema

calcutta said:


> that active cancellation thing is bullshit . still doing its rounds in the labs . i don't know the exact mechanism ... it sounds like the suite tracks down the signals from the radar and emits such a signal itself after passing it through a 90 degree phase shift .. thus leading to destructive interference..... the result : to the radar it would seem the signal has passed through ... ie there is nothing to worry about......well sounds difficult..........believe it is as difficult as it sounds............best of luck to the French people.



Never say never..... Spectra is still classified...nobody knows what it does !

There must be some reason that cost to develop Spectra is almost half of the entire fighter development costs -- or something like that...you can google it.


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## soaringphnx

SPECTRA​The SPECTRA system for the Rafale combat aircraft operates in electromagnetic, laser and infra-red domains. Using sophisticated techniques, such as interferometry for high precision DOA and passive ranging, digital frequency memory for signal coherency and active phased-array transmitters for maximum effectiveness and covertness, the highly advanced multi-sensors and artificial intelligence data fusion capabilities of SPECTRA provide the Rafale aircraft with the best chance to survive in harsh and lethal environments. The Rafale combat aircraft and the SPECTRA system are fully operational onboard the French Navy's Rafale.

Offering unique high sensitivity detection and multiple threat capability, and operating smart data fusion between multi-spectral sensors, it provides identification, location, jamming and decoying against an extensive range of electromagnetic, infra-red and laser threats.

Additionally, SPECTRA fulfils new functions in a combat aircraft, while significantly participating in the determination of the aircraft's tactical situation, and providing the crew with operational advantage by performing accurate threat location.

By virtue of its fully passive situational awareness capability, SPECTRA is a major contributor to the low observability concept of Rafale.

Original Article: SPECTRA - Thales

*Note:* Here, there is nothing mentioned about Spectra employing "active cancellation". According to wikipedia, Spectra *may* employ "active cancellation" technology as it has been tested by Thales. We can only speculate if Spectra employs "active cancellation" or of it is fully functional.

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## soaringphnx

I know this isn't something new, but since the discussion has turned to the Rafale,*
Rafale defeats F-22? ​*






French magazine Air & Cosmos published last week a photo obtained from the French Air Force showing a Lockheed Martin F-22 in the target sights of a Dassault Rafale. The apparent intercept took place during the exercises at Al Dhafra AB, UAE, in November and December, Air & Cosmos' Guillaume Steuer reports.

In late December, the French Ministry of Defense boasted one kill in six engagements versus the F-22 in aerial combat. In turn, US Air Force F-22 pilots, however, told the media that their aircraft was undefeated during the exercise.

It's impossible to make any sensible judgments from a single photo of an alleged air-to-air engagement, but this is certainly a significant image to appear in the history of both fighter programs.

Original article: PHOTO: Rafale defeats F-22? - The DEW Line


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## blain2

This did not happen. No F-22s were defeated. The Rafales flew three DACT missions against the Raptors. Lost one and the two were called off after some maneuvering. Rafale certainly did not beat the F-22 in any way.

Secondly, the F-22s flew with AMAs which increased their radar signature for aircraft like the Rafale and others to see it on their radars.

Interestingly enough, the only aircraft that the F-22 pilots called out as interesting in their DACT missions were Pakistani F-7PGs for the asymmetric threat they represented.

The image you see above is from the targeting pod of the Rafale which can track other aircraft in formation. This is not a HUD/Pipper shot.

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## blain2

anathema said:


> Sri/Sancho,
> 
> I again state that Rafale/EF is just too expensive. Whether India will go these planes is a different matter altogether.
> 
> Compare this in 1998 UAE negotiated with US for 80 F16C/D's --
> 
> UAE to Purchase 80 F-16C/Ds, Arms in Deal Worth $7 Billion
> 
> *"REPRESENTING ONE of the largest and most expensive sales of U.S. fighter aircraft this decade, the United Arab Emirates (UAE) announced on May 12 that it will purchase 80 F-16C/D fighters, including weapons and support systems, worth an estimated $7 billion."
> *
> 
> Now compare the US Navy Super Hornet deal --
> 
> Navy to buy 124 Boeing Super Hornets for $5.4B - St. Louis Business Journal
> 
> *
> "The U.S. Navy said it plans to enter into a multi-year procurement deal with Boeing to buy 124 F/A-18 Super Hornet fighter jets for $5.4 billion"*
> 
> Even if you include weapon systems/ToT/blah blah...and you double the deal it still is 10.8 billion dollars.
> 
> Now compare this with Rafale deal....36 aircraft for 10 Billion (not sure if this is the figure).... Even if the deal is for 5 Billion dollars sorry it still is way too expensive !
> 
> If India is prepared to spend big bucks - then great -- we can buy Rafale (my personal fav)...but if it involves bidding process then tata bye bye Rafale. Same case with EF.
> 
> From a cost wise we only have F16, F18 and Gripen. I have ruled Mig 35 - but you can put it back on ....



Don't compare a new order (F-16 blk60) which had to be funded for research and serial production to a follow-on order of F/A-18s for the USN. Two different things with different price tags.

My own take is that IAF is going for the SH. Nothing else makes sense and the Indians will find themselves beholden to the US aircraft.

In the scheme of things, I can tell you that IAF always had F/A-18 and F-16 as the top choices. F-16 will not be in the running for very many obvious reasons, however F/A-18 not only fulfills the IAF requirements, but also provides the best bang for the buck of the line-up available.

Folks can disagree here with me, but I am pretty darn sure that this MMRCA is going the way of the F/A-18.

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## karan.1970

blain2 said:


> My own take is that IAF is going for the SH. Nothing else makes sense and the Indians will find themselves beholden to the US aircraft.
> 
> In the scheme of things, I can tell you that IAF always had F/A-18 and F-16 as the top choices. F-16 will not be in the running for very many obvious reasons, however F/A-18 not only fulfills the IAF requirements, but also provides the best bang for the buck of the line-up available.
> 
> Folks can disagree here with me, but I am pretty darn sure that this MMRCA is going the way of the F/A-18.



Thank God.. Finally someone who has similar views as mine in terms of selection of MRCA for India.

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## dbc

blain2 said:


> Secondly, the F-22s flew with AMAs which increased their radar signature for aircraft like the Rafale and others to see it on their radars.


In all the foreign military exercises the Raptor has participated in it has flown with this device attached (between exhaust nozzles).


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## dbc

karan.1970 said:


> Thank God.. Finally someone who has similar views as mine in terms of selection of MRCA for India.



You're not the only one, if you go back a few hundred pages I've said the very same thing..

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## merajahmed

karan.1970 said:


> Thank God.. Finally someone who has similar views as mine in terms of selection of MRCA for India.



imo Rafale, euro-fighter, f-18 s/h will be the final three and then tot, price will be negotiated as we know mmrca is for 126 aircraft but there is a provision for another 74 aircraft in total it is 200 if US (f-18) got the tender for 126 then definitely 74 will goes to Europe and if not then it will vice verse.


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## sancho

anathema said:


> Sri/Sancho,
> 
> I again state that Rafale/EF is just too expensive. Whether India will go these planes is a different matter altogether.
> 
> "The U.S. Navy said it plans to enter into a multi-year procurement deal with Boeing to buy 124 F/A-18 Super Hornet fighter jets for $5.4 billion"[/B]
> 
> Even if you include weapon systems/ToT/blah blah...and you double the deal it still is 10.8 billion dollars.
> 
> Now compare this with Rafale deal....36 aircraft for 10 Billion (not sure if this is the figure).... Even if the deal is for 5 Billion dollars sorry it still is way too expensive !



Hi anathema, the problem in this example is, that you compared an export and a national deal, but both are not the same! The export prices are always higher, because they have to include tax, or parts of the development costs too. 

F18SH for USN for example is expected between $49 to 55 millions each, the 24 that Australia bought costs around $190 millions each.
As you can see a huge difference huge difference and that's because higer costs for export customers, as well as lower numbers.


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## blain2

anathema said:


> Never say never..... Spectra is still classified...nobody knows what it does !
> 
> There must be some reason that cost to develop Spectra is almost half of the entire fighter development costs -- or something like that...you can google it.



Beyond the PR hoopla, Spectra is not leagues ahead of any of the other SPS being offered such as DASS/Pretorian, AIDEWS etc. They all offer the same level of self protection capabilities to the aircraft. 

Its a matter of whose literature you are reading up on. An objective analysis will show that all of these systems are fairly capable and comparable.

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## sancho

blain2 said:


> This did not happen. No F-22s were defeated. The Rafales flew three DACT missions against the Raptors. Lost one and the two were called off after some maneuvering. Rafale certainly did not beat the F-22 in any way.
> 
> Secondly, the F-22s flew with AMAs which increased their radar signature for aircraft like the Rafale and others to see it on their radars.
> 
> Interestingly enough, the only aircraft that the F-22 pilots called out as interesting in their DACT missions were Pakistani F-7PGs for the asymmetric threat they represented.
> 
> The image you see above is from the targeting pod of the Rafale which can track other aircraft in formation. This is not a HUD/Pipper shot.



Many wrong points!

Rafale engaged the F22 six times in UAE and it was reported that it was killed only once, while 5 combats went to draw! 
The interesting thing is, that these was WVR combats, limited to guns only, so the RCS of F22, be it higher than normal, or not doesn't matter here. It was only a dogfight and the Rafale impressed with very good performance against one of the best fighters at present.
Also the picture was taken from Rafales IRST (FSO), not a targeting pod!




blain2 said:


> In the scheme of things, *I can tell you that IAF always had F/A-18 and F-16 as the top choices.* F-16 will not be in the running for very many obvious reasons, however F/A-18 not only fulfills the IAF requirements, but also provides the best bang for the buck of the line-up available.




Wrong again! In the initial MRCA competition IAF clearly prefered additional Mirage 2000s and even the Gripen C/D had a better chance than the F16. The US even tried to influence MoD by Israel to not choose Gripen, but the same F16 Sufa that Israel uses.
When the deal gets bigger to MMRCA, IAF even criticised that such a heavy aircraft like the F18SH will be involved in the competition!

I think nobody says F18SH is a bad fighter, but compared to the other competitiors and the offers of European vendors without EUM and a lot ToT, it is clearly not a good choice. Where it has clear advantages are political benefits, as well as cost-effectivity (average unit and operational cost). If it wins and even I see good chances for that, it wins because of political reasons!



blain2 said:


> Beyond the PR hoopla, Spectra is not leagues ahead of any of the other SPS being offered such as DASS/Pretorian, AIDEWS etc. *They all offer the same level of self protection capabilities to the aircraft*.
> 
> Its a matter of whose literature you are reading up on. An objective analysis will show that all of these systems are fairly capable and comparable.



Possible for protection, but you are highly mistaken if you think that is the main advantage of Spectra!
Can you tell me which other EWS is able to detect, or track other fighters and ground targets, or even can be used to guide PGMs on them? It also offers these features in a field of 360&#176; and the only fighter that will have similar capabilities is the F35 and the US calles it 5. gen avionics right?

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## maithil

^^^ yes and expect much more potent Spectra in next tranche...


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## Sri

Some more points from another forum



> Because of complaints that came to my knowledge I went to check on the ground if there were changes in the report issued by the Navy regarding the use of the Rafale on board the Sampa [Sao Paulo aircraft carrier]. Monday afternoon, friends of MB [Brazilian Navy] and FAB gave me access to the document submitted to Defence Minister and which contains the explanatory memorandum which will be submitted to President Lula.
> 
> The signature of the commanders of the two forces certifies that they are original. Some points:
> 
> 1. From the Sao Paulo, the Rafale can operate with only 40% of its capacity [payload], which could be minimized with a refueling after takeoff;
> 2. The F/A-18E/F Super Hornet is unable to operate our aircraft carrier. Its dry weight is beyond the capacity of the wiring, Its length is greater than that of elevators and catapults would not be able to launch it;
> 3. Even the Gripen navy, which exists only in theory, can only function with a capacity of 80%.
> 
> The document prepared by the Navy contains verbatim the explanatory memorandum and indicates that the 3 would operate smoothly with the future aircraft carrier class of 50000 tons to be operated by the Navy. This material, prepared by COPAC and reviewed by the High Command of Aeronautics has been valided. What has changed are the weights assigned to each element. A good example: in the original settings, established in 1995, the weight of technology transfer was 9%. In contrast, the weight of price and maintenance costs were 30 and 40%. No wonder the F/A-18E/F was the winners of the process. The generals have pushed the engineers to accept what they had established themselves as a rule! Jobim returned because that does not meet the assumptions of the new END [national defense strategy .. which favors technological independance]
> 
> In the new criteria established with the national defense strategy, the technology package is now worth 40%. It is worth noting that the recalculation of the scores have been prepared by COPAC. In the process, ended 75 days ago [!], the Rafale has emerged as the winner because it has scored regularly on all points.[...] Others competitors scored excellent on some points, but showed a weak performance [latimavel?] in others.
> 
> The Super Hornet has been heavily penalized by U.S. law, which prohibits the government from establishing compensation with other states. Everything depends only from the manufacturers, who can not afford the purchase of aircraft for the armed forces of Uncle Sam, for example. For its part, the Gripen present higher risks, according COPAC itself . The Swedes could not even show a spreadsheet about the costs of the F-414 because it was copyrighted by the U.S. Navy. Just to give you an idea, the volume of pages about this issue is equivalent to the amount of pages used to describe the risks of the two others competitors.
> There are doubts about the performance of the radar, on the sustainability of the cell, on the implementation of the program and also some devastating certainties, like the fact that, with limited interior space and a lower capacity of energy production , the Gripen offers smaller developments than its competitors. Boys, I read it: written by Copac itself! Furthermore, it was rated slightly higher than the Rafale on the issue of technology transfer, but not enough to overcome its weaknesses and achieve trade compensation by france, which guarantees the purchase of 12 KC-390 and the participation of Dassault in the Embraer program.
> About the explanatory memorandum, it is a masterpiece from a methodological point of view. Each phrase refers to an attached document, including the explanatory memorandum sent in December by the Air Force Command, which uses color coding to highlight the strengths, weaknesses, and the median for each unit ... [Exactly what said Istoe... some leaks were more credible than others ..]
> 
> For health reasons, I moved away from the forums. [] I hope I have been helpful to the debate.
> 
> Moreover, the Navy will operate 48 aircraft on its two units in the future.
> 
> Abracos
> 
> Pepe
> 
> 
> Pedro Paulo Rezende is a well-know Brazilian Journalist (Correio Braziliense / Valor econômico / Janes defence weekly)
> 
> 
> Fórum Defesa Brasil &bull; Informação ... tart=41760


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## flanker143

> Possible for protection, but you are highly mistaken if you think that is the main advantage of Spectra!
> Can you tell me which other EWS is able to detect, track other fighters and ground targets, or even can be used to guide PGMs on them? It also offers these features in a field of 360&#176; and the only fighter that will have similar capabilities is the F35 and the US calles it 5. gen avionics right?



spectra's active cancellation can also be used to jam/blind the active seeker on bvr missile if not the enemy's radar making it a very good defensive aid ......... ain't it ?


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## calcutta

ya....right . i missed that one


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## calcutta

anathema said:


> Never say never..... Spectra is still classified...nobody knows what it does !
> 
> There must be some reason that cost to develop Spectra is almost half of the entire fighter development costs -- or something like that...you can google it.



don't want another jsf do we? we should learn from our mistakes.. at least others mistakes... i believe anything that isn't affordable...is as good as something that does not exists...don't give "In the long run ....." theories


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## sancho

flanker143 said:


> spectra's active cancellation can also be used to jam/blind the active seeker on bvr missile if not the enemy's radar making it a very good defensive aid ......... ain't it ?



Active cancellation is only a possible future upgrade, it's not developed yet.


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## anathema

sancho said:


> *Hi anathema, the problem in this example is, that you compared an export and a national deal*
> 
> F18SH for USN for example is expected between $49 to 55 millions each, the 24 that Australia bought costs around $190 millions each.
> As you can see a huge difference huge difference and that's because higer costs for export customers, as well as lower numbers.



But if India goes for F16 or F18 then it would be through FMS route, right ? The cost would be pretty much same except for the additional pentagon charges ---


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## dbc

sancho said:


> Active cancellation is only a possible future upgrade, it's not developed yet.




Can you please be objective in your assessment of the Rafale? Active cancellation has gone no where since Pierre-Yves Chaltiel first talked about it in the mid 90's - he is probably retired long ago and spends most of his time playing pétanque in some corner of France.


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## KEETARP

calcutta said:


> that active cancellation thing is bullshit . still doing its rounds in the labs . i don't know the exact mechanism ... it sounds like the suite tracks down the signals from the radar and emits such a signal itself after passing it through a *90 degree phase shift* .. thus leading to destructive interference..... the result : to the radar it would seem the signal has passed through ... ie there is nothing to worry about......well sounds difficult..........believe it is as difficult as it sounds............best of luck to the French people.



Correction , 
it has to be 180 out of phase for wavefront to be in destructive interference . 
Wave-superposition to be precise to produce phase cancellation (phase cancellation) or destructive interaction (destructive 
interference). 









*To add Active cancellation on SPECTRA is as hyped as Plasma stealth , impossible in reality .
Problems are many with SPECTRA active cancellation* 

First - 
The incident electromagnetic radiation which reflects from each aircraft's surface back to the transmitter , comes from many different surfaces and geometry . 
*Any such point produces a reflected wave with its own particular charac- 
These features including the phase and amplitude wave*
*The on- turning radiation from each point varies per- say like 
-Depending on the angle of incidence, 
-the geometry of point, 
-density of material of reflecting surface* 
So to achieve the elimination of the signal , this requires a very precise order-processing receivers coupled with large computing capacity to be able through a complex process that can recognize the length and breadth of the incoming electromagnetic radiation + emitting 
a signal 180 degrees out of phase, creating third wave with 0 output.

Second thing is 
for Active cancellation to work , the receivers must sample a *Radar Pulse train * and keep track of *Pulse repetition Freq*+ *Pulse jittering *. 
in dense Electronic environment of various radar formation and clutter noise . 
*Gambit discussed about SPECTRA+Pulse Jittering few months back , try to check that post *

Below is wiki link for pulse train - 
Radar signal characteristics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


> The radar pulse train is a form of square wave, the pure form of which consists of the fundamental plus all of the odd harmonics. The exact composition of the pulse train will depend on the pulse width and PRF, but mathematical analysis can be used to calculate all of the frequencies in the spectrum. When the pulse train is used to modulate a radar carrier, the typical spectrum shown on the left will be obtained.



Basically transmitter transmits for few seconds and then listens , this constitutes a Radar pulse , Several pulses in a sequence make up a pulse train. Remember these Pulse train are specific for a Radar transmitter 
like length , freq etc
*Now the problem *



'
Suppose above is the pulse train , if SPECTRA takes a very short sample of this the rest of the incident pulse train or next pulse train will reveal the aircraft
If the system take too long a sample ie longer than this sequence , then the aircraft will be revealed anyway by the current pulse train.
All this when Hostile AESA radar is changing its PRF with every cycle 
Here is link for PRF - Radar signal characteristics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


> Pulse repetition frequency (PRF)
> In order to build up a discernible echo, most radar systems emit pulses continuously and the repetition rate of these pulses is determined by the role of the system. An echo from a target will therefore be 'painted' on the display or integrated within the signal processor every time a new pulse is transmitted, reinforcing the return and making detection easier. The higher the PRF that is used, then the more the target is painted. However with the higher PRF the range that the radar can "see" is reduced. Radar designers try to use the highest PRF possible commensurate with the other factors that constrain it, as described below.
> 
> Staggered PRF
> Staggered PRF is where the time between interrogations from radar changes slightly. The change of repetition frequency allows the radar, on a pulse-to-pulse basis, to differentiate between returns from itself and returns from other radar systems with the same frequency. Without stagger any returns from another radar on the same frequency would appear stable in time and could be mistaken for the radar's own returns. With stagger the radar&#8217;s own targets appear stable in time in relation to the transmit pulse, whilst the 'jamming' echoes are moving around in time (uncorrelated), causing them to be rejected by the receiver.
> 
> Clutter
> Clutter (also termed ground clutter) is a form of radar signal contamination. It occurs when fixed objects close to the transmitter&#8212;such as buildings, trees, or terrain (hills, ocean swells and waves)&#8212;obstruct a radar beam and produce echoes.



The hostile radar can change the PRF from one train to the next, forcing the SPECTRA-like system to constantly recalibrate and reprocess itself,
*The hostile radar is employing the tactic called 'PRF jittering'. which is basically a method to remember the sequence of wave .
If the 'PRF jittering' sequence is known, this SPECTRA-like system will work as claimed * 
But how will you know Jittering sequence until you get hand on enemy's aircraft itself ????? , ELNIT/SIGNIT are not full-proof .
*If the 'PRF jittering' sequence is not known, the system will create many echoes for the seeking radar, one moment the system successfully canceled the pulse train but with the new pulse train with a different pulse train characteristics the system must resample,*in turn which will make the seeking radar operator suspicious .

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## praveen007

Just got news on times of india that iaf - may shortlist finilize 3 a/c with in a week. hope its true.


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## soaringphnx

praveen007 said:


> Just got news on times of india that iaf - may shortlist finilize 3 a/c with in a week. hope its true.



*Race for `mother of all deals' for 126 fighters gets hotter​*
The race for the "mother of all defence deals", the $10.4 billion project to acquire 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) for IAF, is getting hotter.

Defence ministry sources said the *technical evaluation report* of the gruelling field trials, during which the six foreign fighters in contention were tested by IAF pilots both in India and abroad under different weather conditions, was *"virtually ready"* now.

*"IAF is likely to submit the exhaustive report by next week.* Subsequently, a shortlist of the fighters which have done well in the field evaluation test and the staff evaluation will be made," said a source.

The commercial bids submitted by the six aviation majors -- American F/A-18 `Super Hornet' (Boeing) and F-16 `Falcon' (Lockheed Martin), Swedish Gripen (Saab), French Rafale (Dassault), Russian MiG-35 (United Aircraft Corporation) and Eurofighter Typhoon (consortium of British, German, Spanish and Italian companies) -- will be opened, examined and compared only after that.

This will be the first time that *"life-cycle costs" will be taken into account rather than just pitching for the lowest bidder. The "direct acquisition cost", the cost of operating the fighters over a 40-year period, with 6,000 hours of flying, and the cost of the ToT will all be taken into account to arrive at a "verifiable cost model" for the commercial evaluation.*

Complex negotiations on the 50&#37; offsets specified in the contract, under which the selected foreign vendor will be required to plough half of the contract forex value back into India, will also have to be conducted.

IAF is keeping its fingers crossed that the actual contract, under which *18 jets will be bought off-the-shelf and the rest will be manufactured in India under transfer of technology to Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd*, is inked within a year.

IAF obviously wants to get the fighters as soon as possible, grappling as it is with a sharp fall in the number of its fighter squadrons (each has 12 to 18 jets), which is down to just 32 from even the "sanctioned" strength of 39.5.

Original article: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...-fighters-gets-hotter/articleshow/6111518.cms

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## praveen007

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...jets-for-104-bn-deal/articaleshow/6112791.cms


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## maithil

link not working..praveen please paste the article..


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## Sri

The Link
Race for `mother of all deals' for 126 fighters gets hotter - India - The Times of India


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## flanker143

is there any fixed date for mmrca decision ??

i seriously want this to end !!!! go rafale !!!


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## maithil

In some other forum a poster was saying that he has some inside informations and most probably the tender will be a split one..)i know this has been discussed to death here)..what do you guys think --126RAFALE+74SH


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## Chanakyaa

Yes, even my contacts state the same rafale+hornet... But that leaves me puzzled.....


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## Leonidas

maithil said:


> In some other forum a poster was saying that he has some inside informations and most probably the tender will be a split one..)i know this has been discussed to death here)..what do you guys think --126RAFALE+74SH



Good to read but not practical. It would be a logistical blunder. I guess no air-force in the world operates so many different types of fighter aircrafts like that of India. 
USAF operates 4 types -> F-22, F-18, F-16 & F-15 with F-35 in testing stage. 
RAF operates 3 types -> Typhoon, Tornado & Harrier.
French Air Force 3 types -> Rafale, Mirage 2000, Mirage F1.
IAF - Su30MKI, Mirage 2000-5 mk2, MiG-29SMT, Jaguar, MiG-27, Tejas, MiG-21 & PAK-FA in 2018. Add to that 2 types of MRCAs.  Thats an absolute logistical nightmare scenario. (Not including Sea Harriers here cz they r operated by the Naval Air Arm, not the IAF)
Do u still think we should go for 126RAFALE+74SH 
And yes, different types of aircrafts does not make a great Airforce but the quality of personnel & aircraft does. 

My 2 cents.


----------



## Leonidas

raks27uk said:


> Rafale wont win the MRCA its engine thrust is too low thats why UAE wants to fund further development so it is more suited to hotter climates



I believe that the biggest advantages with Rafale are 
First, its air-to-ground capabilities.
Second, the proven track record of Mirages in the IAF. 
Third, full ToT with no strings attached. 
Fourth, ease of induction in the IAF as it is already operating french jets.

Although I personally favour Typhoon but lets be honest, Rafale cannot be counted down & out as yet.
It is the second best in the competition IMO.


----------



## Sri

As far as I understand EF is the best fighter in the competition when it is fully developed, but thats good 5 years delayed and I don't think we can wait that long. 

It looks like F 35 and EF are in similar states, one is in prototype stage and other is in initial stages of development ( Only AtoA is ready, and AESA, AtoG etc are still missing). As some one was saying F35 missed the bus as its 5-6 years late. I feel same goes to EF as well.

By reading from Brazilian competition- Mig 35, NG are strict NO (as both of them are not developed)


> This makes it impossible to calculate their real costs and ensure compliance with deadlines. Despite the expectation of development together with Embraer, the dome of Defense knows that choosing the Gripen NG would be like signing a blank check. FAB this item marked in red. "You can not buy what is on the drawing board," warns Cavagnari.


----------



## Dash

"Life cycle cost" and 50&#37; offset clause...

Clearly shows Rafale will have advantage over others as they wont be able to give 50% offset clause with 1 or 2 higher end techs....


----------



## maithil

Leonidas said:


> Good to read but not practical. It would be a logistical blunder. I guess no air-force in the world operates so many different types of fighter aircrafts like that of India.
> USAF operates 4 types -> F-22, F-18, F-16 & F-15 with F-35 in testing stage.
> RAF operates 3 types -> Typhoon, Tornado & Harrier.
> French Air Force 3 types -> Rafale, Mirage 2000, Mirage F1.
> *IAF - Su30MKI, Mirage 2000-5 mk2, MiG-29SMT, Jaguar, MiG-27, Tejas, MiG-21 & PAK-FA in 2018.* Add to that 2 types of MRCAs.  Thats an absolute logistical nightmare scenario. (Not including Sea Harriers here cz they r operated by the Naval Air Arm, not the IAF)
> Do u still think we should go for 126RAFALE+74SH
> And yes, different types of aircrafts does not make a great Airforce but the quality of personnel & aircraft does.
> 
> My 2 cents.



IAF in 2020: Su-30, Mirage,Mig-29, Tejas ,FGFA and RAFALE+SH..

Jaguar and Mig-27 will start retiring by then..Mig-21 will be retired by then...

Even if we leave these 3 we will have 7 different types..and LCA will be in two different configs. MK-I and II..

add 5-7 years--

IAF- Su-30-- 270
Mig-29- 60 --- This will also start going out..
RAFALE- 120
SH-75
FGFA-100-120
LCA- ~200
MCA- ~20

Again 7 different types of manned aircrafts..not to forget the extra UCAVs..

looks very formidable force but very tough to maintain...


----------



## flanker143

> IAF- Su-30-- 270
> Mig-29- 60 --- This will also start going out..
> RAFALE- 120
> SH-75
> FGFA-100-120
> LCA- ~200
> MCA- ~20



mca still on paper ...no way it ain't comin in 5-7 years......

rafale + sh ....... oh god plzz no ...

rafales fine !!!!

no sh plzzz


----------



## maithil

I was talking about 2020+ ( 5 to 7 ) years..

Although RAFALE is no doubt best..you cant discount the abilities if SH (no sanctions comment please) ..It has best radar..and who knows as a lollypop US may agree on giving us GROWLERs..


----------



## sancho

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> *Can you please be objective in your assessment of the Rafale?* Active cancellation has gone no where since Pierre-Yves Chaltiel first talked about it in the mid 90's - he is probably retired long ago and spends most of his time playing pétanque in some corner of France.



 That's why I told him, that this tech is not developed and only possible in future right? Otherwise I would simply joined him and argued with Active cancellation too and future capabilities too.

The French for sure are working on somekind of stealth techs related to Spectra (in recent reports it was called active stealth), but only for future batches and nothing really reliable in know so far.

These are the possible upgrades of Rafale in future:


> Revised acccording to the DSI, May, 2010........
> 
> 
> *Rafale F3-O4T Rafale Batch 4* (2012 ~ 2017)
> 
> A. The first productional fighter with AESA radar in Europe.
> B. New weapons and equipments Damocles XF, new members of AASM family.
> C. RBE-2 AESA radar.
> D. FSO-IT.
> E. DDM-NG.
> F. Spectra EWS upgrading.
> G. Possible upgrading choice: HMD.
> H. M88 TCO upgrading (M88-4E).
> 
> 
> *Rafale UAE* (2013 ~ )
> 
> A. Possibly the first member of Rafale with thrust enhancement.
> B. New weapon Meteor BVRAAM.
> C. The main electronic equipments should be the same as Rafale F3-O4T or Rafale Batch5.
> D. GMTT and GMTI modes.
> E. HMD.
> F. New M88 engine with thrust enhancement (20,000 Ib class).
> G. RCS reduction.
> H. Improvement in weapon load capability at tropic area SCALP-EG*3 + 2,000 L tank*2 + AAM*6
> 
> 
> *Rafale Batch 5* (2018 ~ 2023)
> 
> *A. Possibly the first member of Rafale with active stealthy techonology.*
> B. New weapon Meteor BVRAAM, Next generation of Damocles.
> C. Upgrading RBE-2 AESA radar GaN +/- side-looking airborne radar antenna.
> D. GMTT and GMTI modes.
> E. OSF-NG Techonology of laser radar image.
> F. DDM-NG upgrading.
> G. Upgrading for Data Fusion.
> H. SATCOM Datalink.
> *I. SPECTRA 5T EWS (GaN).*
> J. HMD-NG.
> K. Air-launched cruising jammer / decoy with deployable wings.



A few months ago there was even e new article, that described the future Active Stealth and Spectra 5T capabilites, will post it if I find it again.


----------



## sancho

soaringphnx said:


> *This will be the first time that "life-cycle costs" will be taken into account rather than just pitching for the lowest bidder.* The "direct acquisition cost", the cost of operating the fighters over a 40-year period, with 6,000 hours of flying, and the cost of the ToT will all be taken into account to arrive at a "verifiable cost model" for the commercial evaluation.



This is a hit for the Mig, because it rules out one of its major advantages, the low unit costs! Now there is even less it could offer IAF and why it is doubtful that it will be chosen.
Also interesting is, that they are aiming for a long term solution (over 40 years), not only a stop gap anymore. That's what I often said before, it's not a simple fighter replacement anymore and the best package should win.


----------



## Hindustan Fighter

maithil said:


> I was talking about 2020+ ( 5 to 7 ) years..
> 
> Although RAFALE is no doubt best..you cant discount the abilities if SH (no sanctions comment please) ..It has best radar..and who knows as a lollypop US may agree on giving us GROWLERs..



It is not just a question of getting the best aircraft. India is not a rich country and *cost *will also play big role in selection of these aircrafts. When I say cost I mean cost of aircraft + cost of weapons + cost of spares + other cost (maintenance hours, fuel required/ sortie, single engine/twin engine).

Also if you see traditionally most of the world's major airforces who operate both single engine and twin engine fighters always have more single engine aircrafts than twin engine aircraft and so historically is the case with IAF.
If you compare the ratio of single engine : twin engine fighter in these airforces, we will see average ratio of about 2:1 or at least 1.5:1 in the favor of single engine aircraft.
e.g USA airforce- currently have than 1200 F-16 and 600 F15.
In 5 G planes they will have 187 F22 and more than 500 F-35 A.

Also currently India have about 270 odd mig-21(both bison and older ones), 145 odd Mig-27, 51 Mirages 2000. 
Altogether about 350 to 370 single engine fighters

125 su-30mki 100 odd jaguars, 64 mig29
Altogether about 290 twin engine fighter.

In next 15 yrs we would have retired all of the mig- 21s and mig- 27s. By 2025 we will have about 51 upgrades mirage 2000-5 and around 140 LCA (both mark 1 and 2).
So in all about around 180 to 190 single engine fighters

Also 270 Su-30mki, 64 mig 29 SMT, 100 FGFA+PAKFA. Already around 340 twin engine fighters.
If we have twin engine MRCA then around 460 twin engine and 190 single engine.

We shouldn't be surprise if IAF selects one of the single engine fighters in MRCA i.e. F-16 IN or Gripen IN since the fact that IAF was originally looking for Mirage 2000 class fighter to begin with.

Even though most of us here want either Rafale or Typhoon to come out as winner, however the cost and other factors mentioned above might eventually favor F-16 or Gripen.


----------



## sancho

Hindustan Fighter said:


> It is not just a question of getting the best aircraft. India is not a rich country and *cost *will also play big role in selection of these aircrafts. When I say cost I mean cost of aircraft + cost of weapons + cost of spares + other cost (maintenance hours, fuel required/ sortie, single engine/twin engine).
> 
> Also if you see traditionally most of the world's major airforces who operate both single engine and twin engine fighters always have more single engine aircrafts than twin engine aircraft and so historically is the case with IAF.
> If you compare the ratio of single engine : twin engine fighter in these airforces, we will see average ratio of about 2:1 or at least 1.5:1 in the favor of single engine aircraft.
> e.g USA airforce- currently have than 1200 F-16 and 600 F15.
> In 5 G planes they will have 187 F22 and more than 500 F-35 A.
> 
> Also currently India have about 270 odd mig-21(both bison and older ones), 145 odd Mig-27, 51 Mirages 2000.
> Altogether about 350 to 370 single engine fighters
> 
> 125 su-30mki 100 odd jaguars, 64 mig29
> Altogether about 290 twin engine fighter.
> 
> In next 15 yrs we would have retired all of the mig- 21s and mig- 27s. By 2025 we will have about 51 upgrades mirage 2000-5 and around 140 LCA (both mark 1 and 2).
> So in all about around 180 to 190 single engine fighters
> 
> Also 270 Su-30mki, 64 mig 29 SMT, 100 FGFA+PAKFA. Already around 340 twin engine fighters.
> If we have twin engine MRCA then around 460 twin engine and 190 single engine.
> 
> We shouldn't be surprise if IAF selects one of the single engine fighters in MRCA i.e. F-16 IN or Gripen IN since the fact that IAF was originally looking for Mirage 2000 class fighter to begin with.
> 
> Even though most of us here want either Rafale or Typhoon to come out as winner, however the cost and other factors mentioned above might eventually favor F-16 or Gripen.



Hi Hindustan Fighter, that's too simple I think. The F35 for example replaces single engine F16s as well as twin engine F18 Hornets, it's maintenance is much higher than the maintenance of F16s now. On the other side, the maintenance of Rafale was aimed at Mirage 2000 levels and some reports from Greece air force, that evaluated the Rafale too, confirms that. So only because you have 2 engines doesn't always mean twice the costs, just as a single engine doesn't mean lower costs.

The initial MRCA competition would have gone for a single engine fighter for sure (M2K-5, or Gripen C/D), but now MMRCA is aiming on more, but of course the lifetime costs will play a role. The one that gives the most advantages in different fields will most likely win. That can be a costlier fighter like Rafale, or EF, if we get much in return (ToT, offsets, partnerships, JV...), or a cheaper fighter like Gripen NG, that also offers less. It all depends on what the real reqirements are and what MoD wants!


----------



## soaringphnx

raks27uk said:


> Eurofighter will win the MRCA deal - It is the best fighter for a hot climate such as India, is the 2nd best fighter in the world the 1st being the F22. Saudi arabia has already purchased these jets proving that the thrust of the engines is well suited to desert/tropical climate which the rafale lacks hence why UAE wants a higher thrust engine.



Eurofighter may be the best fighter among the contestants in air-to-air combat, but the Gripen, Rafale and F-18 offer much more in the air-to-ground role. India already has the Su-30MKI (a total of 230 including those on order I believe) that excels in air-to-air combat equally or better than the EFT. So IAF is probably looking for a fighter that can offer good air-to-ground performance. In air-to-ground combat, even the Gripen is better than the EFT despite costing much less. Remember, the EFT is the most expensive fighter in the competition. My pick would be the Rafale  (too bad it's expensive ). The Gripen is a good cost-effective option too.


----------



## dee

IAF readies evaluation reports of MMRCA fighters news



New Delhi: The Indian Air Force's marathon attempt to secure a medium range multi-role combat aircraft, with which to replace a rapidly ageing fleet of Soviet-era MiG fighters, has crossed another milestone with technical evaluation reports from field trials of competing aircraft now being readied for consideration.

A MiG-35 two-seaterReports quote defence ministry sources as saying that these evaluation reports, prepared after gruelling field trials of six competing fighters of different manufacturers, was ''virtually ready'' now. The fighters in contention were tested by IAF pilots both in India and abroad under different weather conditions. While flight characteristics were tested in India, weapon systems were tested in home countries of different fighters.

The six competing fighter platforms are Boeing's F/A-18 'Super Hornet, Lockheed Martin's F-16 'Falcon', the Saab Gripen, D'assault's Rafale, the MiG-35 (Russia's United Aircraft Corporation) and the Eurofighter Typhoon (a consortium of British, German, Spanish and Italian companies).

''IAF is likely to submit the exhaustive report by next week. Subsequently, a shortlist of the fighters which 
have done well in the field evaluation test and the staff evaluation will be made,'' said a source.

The commercial bids submitted by the six manufacturers will be opened, examined and compared only after that.

For the first time ''life-cycle costs'' will be taken into account by the Indian Air Force rather than opting for just the lowest bid. 



domain-b.com : IAF readies evaluation reports of MMRCA fighters


----------



## owcc

one of the major features being attributed to all western fighters is the availability of aesa radars but as its tot is subject to US congress approval


----------



## praveen007

some *rafale* pics



















*road landing*


----------



## praveen007

some *EF-2000* pics


----------



## praveen007

some *MIG-35* pics


----------



## praveen007

some *F/A-18* pics


----------



## praveen007

some *F-16 block60* pics


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## anathema

praveen007 said:


> some *rafale* pics



Thats the sexist **** pit i have ever seen... in 2500 ---this would be *the 'Michalenglo' art of our era.*


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## praveen007

indeed it will b that ****Pit. by the way isnt f-16 bl-60 look very muscular & heavy weight to tak on other mmsca a/c's


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## jha

BTW Eurofighter looks equally good...

SH seems to have maximum payload capacity...can anyone check..?


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## praveen007

@ jha 
this link might help
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_MRCA_competition#Comparison_of_the_competing_aircraft


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## jha

Thanks Praveen for the link..


----------



## sudhir007

Pentagon pitches for $10 billion Indian fighter jet deal - India - The Times of India

WASHINGTON: The Pentagon is making a strong pitch for US companies for the $10 billion deal for 126 fighter aircraft for the Indian Air Force and future sales of the C-17 transport aircraft.

The US defence department, also known as Pentagon because of the shape of its building, does not view defence equipment sales as mere commercial transactions and looks at them as a growth area for the India-US partnership, a senior defence official said on Thursday.

"I am and will continue to be a strong advocate of US solutions for India's defence needs," Michele Flournoy, undersecretary of defence for policy, told members of the Asia Society. "US companies are eager to work with India as the Indian military continues to modernise."

Noting two American companies, Boeing and Lockheed Martin, are among six competitors for India's biggest fighter-jet purchase in 15 years, she said: "We are also looking at future sales of the C-17 aircraft as another example of near term defence sales."
"We understand that India is making a strategic as well as an economic choice when it makes defence acquisitions," she said. "Obviously, the commercial benefits of defence sales to the US economy can't be denied."

"But from a [defence department] perspective, these sales are even more important in building a strategic partnership that will allow both our countries to cooperate more effectively to protect our mutual security interests in the future," Flournoy said.
"Whether the scenario involves humanitarian assistance, counterterrorism cooperation or maritime security activities," she continued, "having common equipment will allow more seamless cooperation."

India is seeking to build its own indigenous defence industry, and is looking for the best technologies to use in its defence sector, Flournoy said.

The United States is committed to providing India with top-of-the-line technology, and has backed up its commitment by approving the overwhelming majority of licenses requested last year, she said.

Flournoy noted defence secretary Robert M Gates has made export control reform a key priority, citing the streamlining and modernizing of the US export control system as a national security priority that affects the nation's ability to build and sustain key partnerships.

India and the United States will explore ways to counter the spread of weapons of mass destruction through maritime cooperation, dialogue, and identifying new technologies to combat this threat, Flournoy said.

"We will look at ways in which, together, we can better secure the global commons by expanding our already robust cooperation in air, space, cyberspace and maritime initiatives."


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## jha

here comes uncle sam...

Now its almost confirmed.. 124 RAFALE + 74 SH...


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## dbc

Interesting video for all Rafale fans.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## sancho

jha said:


> here comes uncle sam...
> 
> Now its almost confirmed.. 124 RAFALE + 74 SH...



A split was denied from MoD before, but even if, this combo would make no sense, because one would get 2 fighters that has commonality, or with different capabilities. If there would be a split, the only combo that makes sense would be Gripen NG and F18SH. Both could use the same US weapons, as well as the same GE 414 engine and while the NG will be for point defense and close combats, the F18SH would be for BVR and strike attacks.


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## karan.1970

jha said:


> here comes uncle sam...
> 
> Now its almost confirmed.. 124 RAFALE + 74 SH...



My guess would be other way round. Specially with the 40 Rafale offer from France recently


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## SSGPA1

sudhir007 said:


> WASHINGTON: The Pentagon is making a strong pitch for US companies for the $10 billion deal for 126 fighter aircraft for the Indian Air Force and future sales of the C-17 transport aircraft.



This article confirms that MRCA will be a US solution. We have enjoyed their friendship for 60 yrs and it is now your turn 

An ideal solution for IAF would have been a French or Russian jet but the US knows how to win business in Asia.


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## Dash

SSGPA1 said:


> This article confirms that MRCA will be a US solution. We have enjoyed their friendship for 60 yrs and it is now your turn
> 
> An ideal solution for IAF would have been a French or Russian jet but the US knows how to win business in Asia.


Where does the article say MRCA will be a US solution? It says they are making a strong pitch.

It's very unlikely that it will go to a US party as TOT is impossible for a simple reason that without signing of agreements which we are hesutant to sign US will not give the tech.

It will go to Europian.


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## flanker143

as far as i know tot was a must for mmrca program.......which US cannot provide ...

so no use of selecting it when u will be denied of the tech transfer in later stages of procurement ...... resulting in another round of negociations resulting in even more delays......

so i personally think that India should not go for SH....


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## owcc

MIG 35 will indeed be a good choice for the nation.It gives all features of a 4.5 generation fighter and more importantly it will show our show solidarity with a long standing ally Russia.Friends of such nature are hard to come by.Although the only disadvantage will be we may not get something new or different compared to su30mki


----------



## Dash

> MIG 35 will indeed be a good choice for the nation.It gives all features of a 4.5 generation fighter



Mig 35 is not yet developed, Its just an advanced version of Mig 29K and it offers no advantage in tech which might come in our way.



> and more importantly it will show our show solidarity with a long standing ally Russia.Friends of such nature are hard to come by.



Well you have seen your friends arm twisting in recent Gorky deal, and 10 billion is too big to be given to any one based on friendship, its the least important factor, whats more important is best for IAF, tech political benifit and so on so forth.




> Although the only disadvantage will be we may not get something new or different compared to su30mki



What you will get here will complement your So30 MKI fighters. You will get a multirole platform and advanced and stronger than MKI in many terms.


----------



## javaman

jha said:


> here comes uncle sam...
> 
> Now its almost confirmed.. 124 RAFALE + 74 SH...



200 ????????


----------



## anathema

Dash said:


> Well you have seen your *friends arm twisting in recent Gorky deal*, and 10 billion is too big to be given to any one based on friendship, its the least important factor, whats more important is best for IAF, tech political benifit and so on so forth.



Dash Saare...

I beg to differ. Indians are no saints. They too advantage of the situation (Russian economic mess) and made a bargain which was simply practically not possible. Russians being in a economic mess wanted to get rid fo the ageing carrier -- they put in mig 29 clause which was beneficial for them -- we went ahead with the deal. Only to realize it simply is not possible.

We did the same thing for MKI, but unlike gorshkov , we were able to pull of MKI due to relatively short turn around time to produce a fighter aircraft.


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## Hulk

Its Rafael plain and simple, second is EF.


----------



## anathema

*Rafale M F1 were pitted against the greeks F-16 b52* -- Cross posting from Military Aviation thread - Air superiority - Thanks to Antibody

4 Rafale F2 B, 1 Rafale F2 C.


The recent excercise wasn't the first occasion for a HAF squadron to counter the Rafale. In 2006 the Rafale M from CdG partecipated in excercises with F16block52+ and F4E AUP. But the Rafale M of the time, were F1, a version centered in air-to-air role with somewhat limited capabilities. In the Aegean Gust partecipated Rafale F2, with improved air to air capabilities, including the data link between aircrafts of a formation, combined with FSO and data fusion...

... Both greek and french pilots flew as backseaters in each other planes. As for the engagements:

4 sorties occured in the morning and 3 in the evening of Tuesday in 2 vs 2 scenarios, in BVR. The greek aircrafts were B52+. On Wednesday 8 sorties with Rafale B in 2 waves (morning, evening), with the partecipation of 1 french pilot and 4 greek backseaters. This time it was 4 vs 4. The greek aircrafts were B52+, B50D, B30.
Something that appeared strange to the greek pilots, was that while according to the HAF policy the pilots were doing the last pre-takeoff check of their planes (Leak check), *the French pilots were taking position on the runway without doing so.*

The impressions of the greek pilots were variable, as is natural , and their observations quite interesting. The whole of the greek F16 pilots, found the cockpit particularly functional, although a bit small, as is used in all french aircrafts. Also, the best impressions left the glass cockpit advanced disposition. It is known that the high operational output of the Rafale is result of high performance, excellent behaviour and friendly MMI that adopts to the high workload in multirole missions. The existance of so many displays and the characteristical absense of analog instruments, was natural to make a big impression to the greek pilots, who apart the Falcon's MFDs, are used to analog instruments. Some in fact, told us that they would feel more comfortable, if some analog instruments have been kept as backups in cases of malfunction or failiure of the electric system. Of course it is certain that safety valves has been thought, while evolution indicates that full glass cockpit will dominate in the future, as will happen in the case of F35 too.

It is also natural to be impressed by the high situation awareness provided by the Rafale thanks to data fusion. *The Rafale, as the greek pilots had the chance to see, can receive tracking data from RBE2, Spectra, OSF, IFF, MICA IR sensors and accompanying aircrafts, ground command and control facilities and AWACS, elaborate them and produce system tracking data (system tracks). *These are superior to quality compared to the single data of the individual sensors. This data is then used for fire control and is shown in the central tactical display and can be transmitted to fellow aircrafts. *So, at a glance at the tactical display, the pilots can see the position of targets that may be inside the radar cone or outside and even in the rear hemisphere, no matter if the radar is on or off!*

Also, it was verified that OSF provides advantage in air combat. As the greek pilots observed, once the target is locked from the radar, *its image is then displayed in the central display which facilitates very much the target identification even in great distances*.A similar function is provided in the F16 by the Lantirn Pod in air to air mode, with the difference that the backseater can make a search independent of the radar. On the contrary on the Rafale, the OSF is primarily slaved on the radar.

The best of impressions left to the greek pilots the performace of the Rafale's self protection suite, confirming the french reputation in the sector since the time that HAF operated the ICMS2000 in the Mirage2000.

Small reprimands were made to some small but important details, like the fact of the abscense of a countdown timer in the HUD when a BVR missile is flying towards its target. The greek F16 pilots are used to such an indicator on the lower left of the HUD, indicating the *"Time On Target" of the Amraam and the time remaining until the Amraam's autonomous seeker *is activated. If the missile fails tracking, then the indication "Loose" appears over the locked target on the HUD and the pilot is aware that the shot has failed. Something like this wasn't found on the Rafale, leading to a difficulty in the interpretation of the BVR shots during the engagements. And this, because the French were regarding that after a certain range , a MICA shot was always successful. As a result, the arrival to safe conclusions, was problematic.

Beyond that, it was also commented positively the agility of the Rafale. Of course the greek pilots still think of the F16 as a particularly capable aircraft in dogfight.
In the air, the Rafale is very agile, but for the greek pilots the sense of flying was very different from that of the F16. It was commented as perfectly stable, with very good response in all speeds and manouvers. Very good impressions were also left by the automatic pilot as well as the ability of maintaining very low speed during approach, prior to landing.

... The Rafale certainly proved that it is a very capable aircraft in the hands of the excellently trainned french pilots who have battle experience. The encounter with F16s, gave the greek pilots the opportunity to measure the F16 capabilities against a 4th gen aircraft, while it showed yet another time that the level of HAF pilots is one of the best in NATO airforces.


----------



## Dash

anathema said:


> Dash Saare...
> 
> I beg to differ. Indians are no saints. They too advantage of the situation (Russian economic mess) and made a bargain which was simply practically not possible. Russians being in a economic mess wanted to get rid fo the ageing carrier -- they put in mig 29 clause which was beneficial for them -- we went ahead with the deal. Only to realize it simply is not possible.
> 
> We did the same thing for MKI, but unlike gorshkov , we were able to pull of MKI due to relatively short turn around time to produce a fighter aircraft.


So what does that mean at the end???


----------



## anathema

Dash said:


> So what does that mean at the end???



It means -- There is no sense in crying that we were bled by russians on Gorshkov deal --- we made a deal without thinking and taking advantage of the russian problems ---Russian's revised the price when the going was better for them..... Ultimately india is getting gorshkov for the actual price it would have if russia was in a stable condition....

Just my two cents --these are all hypothesis ----


----------



## sancho

anathema said:


> It means -- There is no sense in crying that we were bled by russians on Gorshkov deal --- we made a deal without thinking and taking advantage of the russian problems ---Russian's revised the price when the going was better for them..... Ultimately india is getting gorshkov for the actual price it would have if russia was in a stable condition....
> 
> Just my two cents --these are all hypothesis ----



I don't agree on that, because they offered us that carrier and was ready to refurbish it, so it was their responsibility to know how much it costs and how long it takes. We might add some things that increased the costs, but these cost increasings from time to time and the huge delays (if I'm not wrong it was expected in 2008, but will only come by 2012) are not acceptable and are one more reason why we should be less reliable on Russia too.


----------



## Tejas-MkII

Thales To Deliver AESA Radars Soon - Defense News

Thales To Deliver AESA Radars Soon
By PIERRE TRAN 

PARIS - Thales will begin deliveries in August of the first production batch of active electronically scanned array (AESA) radars for the fourth tranche of Rafale strike fighters, Pierre-Yves Chaltiel, head of electronic combat systems, said July 6. 

A relative maturity in production of the AESA sensor allows Thales to launch the Searchmaster range of derivative products, which uses the active array technology. A compact version will be sold for UAVs and helicopters, and a larger model for medium-altitude, long-endurance drones, ground surveillance and maritime patrol aircraft, Chaltiel said. 

The delivery of AESA production units marks the culmination of some 12 years' work and more than one billion euros ($1.3 billion) of government and industry investment, he told journalists ahead of the Farnborough airshow, which opens July 19.

It has taken "more than 10 years' effort to get to this stage," he said.

In the world market, only three industrial teams could claim this level of technological maturity, namely Lockheed Martin and Northrop Grumman, Boeing and Raytheon, and Dassault Aviation and Thales, he said.

An AESA radar will significantly boost operational capabilities for the Rafale in terms of range, interception, tracking a multithreat environment and also improve countermeasures.

The technology will allow for the first time the same active array to be used for the radar and countermeasures.

"It will be the only European aircraft with this capability," he said.

The AESA radars will equip the fourth tranche of 60 Rafales ordered by the Direction Générale pour l'Armement (DGA) procurement office at the end of 2009. No financial details were available.* A preproduction batch of three AESA radars have flown on the Falcon, Mirage 2000 and Rafale.*

The tranche-four Rafales will operate at the F3 standard and the first AESA-equipped squadron is expected to be operational in 2012.

Some five or six countries have shown interest in the Searchmaster concept, which could be delivered in two years for the compact model and five years for the larger version.

The I-Master radar developed for the British Watchkeeper tactical UAV has drawn interest from the U.S. Army and Marine Corps, Chaltiel said.

Chaltiel outlined the technology roadmap for developing the AESA radar, which uses a patented cloud technology receiver module system, intended to allow insertion of new technology over the next 20 years without requiring extensive recertification.

*Eurofighter's E-Scan*

In another European radar development, Eurofighter has signaled it plans to launch an e-scan radar program for the four-nation Typhoon fighter.

The German-based plane maker said July 6 that it planned to announce an "important industrial agreement to further upgrade the Typhoon" at a July 20 press conference at the Farnborough air show. 

Eurofighter program sources say the four partner nations will give the go-ahead to the Selex-led program to equip the fighter with the must-have e-scan radar. 

The new sensor is vital to the aircraft's chances of winning major export orders in India and Japan. 

The company couldn't be reached for a comment. 

Eurofighter is owned by BAE Systems, Finmeccanica and the German and Spanish parts of EADS.

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## Dash

Rafale is silently and teadily making progress, by teh time MOD will be negotiating for price, they will field the operational AESA.

this is what happens when you develope something on your own. Decisions are quicker and faster. Unlike Eurofighter which is still struggling with what kind of AESA they will field.

Too many chickens spoil the broath.

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## sancho

Dash said:


> Rafale is silently and teadily making progress, by teh time MOD will be negotiating for price, they will field the operational AESA.
> 
> this is what happens when you develope something on your own. Decisions are quicker and faster. Unlike Eurofighter which is still struggling with what kind of AESA they will field.
> 
> Too many chickens spoil the broath.



Or you have to do it like the Americans, get a lot of so called "partners" in the F35 developments, but none of them has any say in the development and just remains as financiers. 

Partners are good, if they have the same aim and that was the problem in the EF development. Italy and UK always saw it as an air superiority fighter and had the F35 development in their pocket for A2G roles. Germany and France instead wanted to replace all fighters with one multi role fighter, that's why France left the project and made Rafale alone and now Germany is fighting more, or less alone for EF and it's future developments. However, now with the financial crisis and UK, ITA and even GER reducing the orders, the whole project is going nowhere anymore. Sad, but that's the way it is and India can't take such a risk, while having LCA and future 5. gen developments in the pipeline.
MMRCA must be ready and operational as soon as possible and inducted fast and as far as I see it only Rafale and the US fighters can offer that.


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## Dash

> Partners are good, if they have the same aim and that was the problem in the EF development. Italy and UK always saw it as an air superiority fighter and had the F35 development in their pocket for A2G roles.



It cant be funnier from UK to choose a 5th Gen plane for A2G and choose a 4++ for air superiority. But I guess they choose it after knowing they cant get F-22 and F-35 is better in trike than air superiority for it low turn rate.




> However, now with the financial crisis and UK, ITA and even GER reducing the orders, the whole project is going nowhere anymore. Sad, but that's the way it is and India can't take such a risk, while having LCA and future 5. gen developments in the pipeline.



i will agree with this Sancho, but I just posted my analysis on the MRCA elimination thread. I just deflected my vision and I thought - 
With the recent crisis in Europe, India can be a good funding partner for the program and they need this deal more than we need them. If this deal crashes for them then BAE will be very much bothered.
We can take advantage of this situation and negotiate it to a level where we can rip the benifits in future. utilize them in LCA deal for engines and not to mention EADS is a choice for DRDO too. If we can help germany at this time of crisis along with Italy then we get a partner for a long time to come. I will not go into others details but i see a gain here.

What do you say.?


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## saurabh

Dash said:


> It cant be funnier from UK to choose a 5th Gen plane for A2G and choose a 4++ for air superiority. But I guess they choose it after knowing they cant get F-22 and F-35 is better in trike than air superiority for it low turn rate.



Should not F-35 still be better for air superiority, than EFT? It can atleast perform hit and run, go close to enemy aircraft, fire and run away. Enemy can't fire at something it can't see!


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## praveen007

^^^for hit-n-run u must have to have speed-n-manuvarability which is quit less in f-35(mac-1.8) than eft(mac-2.4).


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## Dash

saurabh said:


> Should not F-35 still be better for air superiority, than EFT? It can atleast perform hit and run, go close to enemy aircraft, fire and run away. Enemy can't fire at something it can't see!


It can be, however we need to look at the challenges in air superriority combat.

When you are trying to achieve air superiority, meaning to say you either make deep penetration strikes. You are bound to face point defense and other sir superiority fighters.

Every one is capable of BVR and a fighter doesnt always has a head on. You are attacked by sides by SAMs, detected by AWACS and so on...

What you most nestly need to have is better TTW, high acceleration, Excellent agility and many other things..
And F-35 at 49,500 pounds in air-to-air take-off weight with an engine rated at 42,000 pounds of thrust, it will be a significant step backward in thrust-to-weight and acceleration for a new fighter. In fact, at that weight and with just 460 square feet of wing area for the Air Force and Marine Corps versions, the F-35's small wings will be loaded with 108 pounds for every square foot, one third worse than the F-16A.

This aircraft is not made for the worst case scenario and in war thats what counts.


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## saurabh

Dash said:


> It can be, however we need to look at the challenges in air superriority combat.
> 
> When you are trying to achieve air superiority, meaning to say you either make deep penetration strikes. *You are bound to face point defense and other sir superiority fighters.
> *
> Every one is capable of BVR and a fighter doesnt always has a head on. *You are attacked by sides by SAMs, detected by AWACS and so on...
> *



Isn't the whole idea of stealth is to avoid being detected by SAMs, AWACS, and other fighters?!! Just sneak in, without getting noticed, and your enemy is dead without knowing who did what! Or may be I am having wrong ideas about this whole stealth concept!


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## anathema

Dash said:


> When you are trying to achieve air superiority, meaning to say you either make deep penetration strikes. You are bound to face point defense and other sir superiority fighters.
> 
> Every one is capable of BVR and a fighter doesnt always has a head on. You are attacked by sides by SAMs, detected by AWACS and so on...




Dash how are you going to counter F35's stealth which is second to F22 (excluding the b2's , b1's etc). Note that Interceptors can/may track F35 through IRST -- but by that time i suspect that the MAWS system on the interceptor will start to blare out load. SAM's doesnt even have that hope. AWACS again can detect F35 through IRST but it will be too late. 



Dash said:


> What you most nestly need to have is better TTW, high acceleration, Excellent agility and many other things..
> And F-35 at 49,500 pounds in air-to-air take-off weight with an engine rated at 42,000 pounds of thrust, it will be a significant step backward in thrust-to-weight and acceleration for a new fighter. In fact, at that weight and with just 460 square feet of wing area for the Air Force and Marine Corps versions, the F-35's small wings will be loaded with 108 pounds for every square foot, one third worse than the F-16A.




On paper F35's performance characteristics are really poor when compared to latest 4th gen fighters -- but what it does have is Stealth and one of the best situational awareness suits in the form of DASS ( note i am saying best because well anything that has skunkworks on it is best)....

So on paper it has a poor twr ratio , 4 missile capability , etc .... but the catch phrase of F35 has always been --
*'Stealthy 5th Generation fighter aircraft for a low price' *-- PAKFA might change all that when it comes into play.

---------- Post added at 01:26 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:25 AM ----------




saurabh said:


> Isn't the whole idea of stealth is to avoid being detected by SAMs, AWACS, and other fighters?!! Just sneak in, without getting noticed, and your enemy is dead without knowing who did what! Or may be I am having wrong ideas about this whole stealth concept!



You are absolutely right -- lets hear what dash has to say.


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## Dash

saurabh said:


> Isn't the whole idea of stealth is to avoid being detected by SAMs, AWACS, and other fighters?!! Just sneak in, without getting noticed, and your enemy is dead without knowing who did what! Or may be I am having wrong ideas about this whole stealth concept!


Ok, we are going into discussion out of MRCA scope, however here are my own openions.(though Iam not an arodynamics expert, but with some knowledge I have and with friends I have this is what they say).

First of all, Do you really think a fighter, Undetected by anything, will sneak into enemy border, drop bombs on important installations and get away???...sounds like a science fiction story and nothing more. It could get close to a science fiction story only if US is attacking some African country but not that close is it?..

Next to F-22 means nothing....F-35 is only designed to have front aspect stealth. In many debates the front aspect stealth gives an advantage with head on combats only. 

Think if the F-35 is countering S-300/400 then there is a real problem.
Just know that no countries borders are straight and not all S-300s will have headon visuals of the incoming F-35s. There will be several such SAM sites which will get a lock on on F-35 around 70-80 Kms
Coz these systems have 400 Km detection range for 1m2 targets.

The AWACS operating in L-Band radar modes will also get a visual of F-35 as F-35 is highly optimised against X band radars. A fighter which produces a tennis ball sized radar return in X band will produce a basket ball sized radar return in a lower band. The fighter built with high X band stealth will have to fight it out with its own aero dynamics.

The F-22 has enough sensor power and arodynamic power to bypass these scenarios, but The F-35 has only one power, if it doesnt get bypassed by the radars then it will be doomed, coz it has serious issues with its power.


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## dbc

Dash said:


> Ok, we are going into discussion out of MRCA scope, however here are my own openions.(though Iam not an arodynamics expert, but with some knowledge I have and with friends I have this is what they say).
> 
> First of all, Do you really think a fighter, Undetected by anything, will sneak into enemy border, drop bombs on important installations and get away???...sounds like a science fiction story and nothing more. It could get close to a science fiction story only if US is attacking some African country but not that close is it?..
> 
> Next to F-22 means nothing....F-35 is only designed to have front aspect stealth. In many debates the front aspect stealth gives an advantage with head on combats only.
> 
> Think if the F-35 is countering S-300/400 then there is a real problem.
> Just know that no countries borders are straight and not all S-300s will have headon visuals of the incoming F-35s. There will be several such SAM sites which will get a lock on on F-35 around 70-80 Kms
> Coz these systems have 400 Km detection range for 1m2 targets.
> 
> The AWACS operating in L-Band radar modes will also get a visual of F-35 as F-35 is highly optimised against X band radars. A fighter which produces a tennis ball sized radar return in X band will produce a basket ball sized radar return in a lower band. The fighter built with high X band stealth will have to fight it out with its own aero dynamics.
> 
> The F-22 has enough sensor power and arodynamic power to bypass these scenarios, but The F-35 has only one power, if it doesnt get bypassed by the radars then it will be doomed, coz it has serious issues with its power.



..not the right thread to spread your ignorance. Neither the F-22 nor the F-35 are in the MRCA competition so please stay on topic - thank you.


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## Dash

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> ..not the right thread to spread your ignorance. Neither the F-22 nor the F-35 are in the MRCA competition so please stay on topic - thank you.


You are not welcome as I already mentioned this is not the right thread. 
So thank "You" and stick to your own thread.


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## CONNAN

*Europe launches a broadside against US in `mother of all defence deals'*

NEW DELHI: The Europeans have launched a fresh counter-offensive to ensure the perceived US influence does not skew the hotly-contested battle to grab the "mother of all defence deals", the lucrative $10.4 billion project to acquire 126 fighters for IAF. 

The defence ministry does proclaim the selection process in the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) project, which has now entered a decisive phase with IAF finalising its technical evaluation report after gruelling field trials of the six foreign fighters in contention, will be "competitive, fair and transparent". 

But it's also a fact that India is sure to factor in its geo-political considerations while finally choosing the MMRCA winner, with Prime Minister Manmohan Singh himself in the past holding that large defence deals should be leveraged to serve the country's larger political and diplomatic ends. 

With the Americans increasingly cornering a major chunk of the lucrative Indian defence market, the Europeans are obviously apprehensive. Some of them even see the "American hand" behind the last-minute scrapping of virtually-finalised deals like the $1.5 billion one for six Airbus A-330 MRTT mid-air refuellers with European aerospace major EADS. 

They do not want the story to be repeated with the MMRCA project, in which Eurofighter Typhoon is pitted against the American F/A-18 `Super Hornet' (Boeing) and F-16 `Falcon' (Lockheed Martin), apart from Swedish Gripen (Saab), French Rafale (Dassault) and Russian MiG-35 (United Aircraft Corporation). 

"Through Eurofighter, four nations (UK, Germany, Spain and Italy) have come together to enter into a real security and cutting-edge technology partnership with India for the next 20 to 30 years," said German ambassador Thomas Matussek. 

Holding that the "unhappiness" over the cancelled deals had been conveyed to the Indian government, Matussek wondered whether India would like to acquire a fighter which was flying across the border as well, in a clear reference to the US supplying F-16s to Pakistan despite Indian objections. 

Added the CEO of EADS military air systems, Bernhard Gerwert, "Our price is the best value for money. Our bid has the full support of the four nations. So, we are not afraid of competition." 

The strong European pitch comes soon after the American undersecretary of defence for policy, Michele Flournoy, strongly advocated "US solutions for India's defence needs" to further cement the expansive Indo-US strategic partnership. 

The inking of the MMRCA project, of course, will still take well over a year. The defence ministry will open the commercial bids only after a shortlist of the fighters is drawn up keeping in mind the field evaluation test and the staff evaluation. 

Complex issues like "life-cycle costs" and 50&#37; offsets, among other things, will have to negotiated before the actual contract is signed. So, the race is still very much open.


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## sancho

LT.PRATEEK said:


> Nope , Eurofighter was the first one to have this capability ,
> 
> I have highlighted concerned text with yellow marker in picture...



DASS (btw now called Pretorian) was the first "so called" fully integrated system, but actually it uses the wingtip stations for the ECM pods and that indeed occupies weapon stations just like poded version before. Spectra instead has the pod at the tail fin and is really a fully integrated system.
Also the normal DASS includes only the ECM pods with RWRs, MAWs, LWRs, or TD are only optional features and only UK EFs use them all so far. Spectra instead combines these features at once!

Regarding 360° detection:



> The modular nature of the DASS has also resulted in each consortium nation refining their individual DASS fits. At this time it is becoming increasingly clear that only the Royal Air Force Typhoon's will employ the full set of detection and counter measure systems originally envisaged. However this can be seen as being of potential benefit for overseas purchases who will be able to specify individual fits tailored to their requirements. An additional benefit of using such a modular system is that upgrade paths can be somewhat simplified. At the present time (mid-2000) discussions are already underway as to future improvements in the DASS architecture for each subsequent Tranche. *This will lead to later Eurofighter's benefiting from complete 360° spherical detection and protection capabilities.* However even in its current state DASS represents one of the most advanced self-protection systems available.



So DASS in future might offer comparable performance, but not at the moment, while Spectra already has this and is increasing the capabilities with the new addition of NG DDM, which will be integrated by 2012.

The best way to explain what imo gives Spectra a clear edge over comparabel 4th gen systems and makes it even comparable to the 5. gen EO DAS EWS of F35 is like this:














> The DAS provides:
> -Multi spectral full spherical coverage
> -Missile detection and tracking
> -Launch point detection
> -Situational awareness IRST & cueing
> -Weapons support
> -Day/night navigation




Now compare that to Spectra:



> Spectra EW system, developed by Thales and MBDA, provides a *multi-spectral threat warning capability against hostile radars, missiles and lasers*. According to test pilots who have flown the Rafale, the EW system provides the aircraft with the highest survivability assets against airborne and ground threats to date. *It also provides passive, 360-degree tactical situation awareness*.
> 
> Considered a fully automatic self-protection system, Spectra provides *passive, all-weather reliable, long-range detection, identification and geographical location of threats in the infrared, electromagnectic and electro-optical ranges*. It uses short response times and cutting-edge defensive measures based on a combination of jamming, decoying and evasive maneuvers and technologies, such as Digital Radio Frequency Memory (DRFM) for signal processing.
> 
> The efficiency of Spectra notably was demonstrated in 2008 at the Red Flag exercise at Nellis Air Force Base, Nevada, where during all sorties the Rafale escaped SAM missile threats. This followed a successful demonstration at the NATO MACE electronic warfare campaign in Europe.
> 
> The angular localization performance of Spectra *makes it possible to precisely discover ground threats and to target them for immediate destruction with precision-guided munitions. In this totally passive mode, Spectra is also used as a general awareness and intelligence reporting system...*



In addition to that:



> According to Lt. Colonel Fabrice Grandclaudon, squadron leader of the EC 1/7 in Saint-Dizier and commander of the detachment," the weapon system Rafale, taking its place in COMAO (raids) of thirty different combat aircrafts, made at the ATLC the demonstration of his extraordinary flexibility. And to cite the case of this mission on November 29 during which a Rafale pilot, has launched, in barely 66 seconds, 3 Mica on 3 enemy planes (two virtually destroyed) and six AASM bombs on as many targets, some 48 km far . All destroyed!
> 
> Versatility is not an empty word.
> 
> Better yet, december 7, a pair of Rafale which protected a SAR combat device shot down 10 incoming hostile fighters while dropping six AASM on 6 different land targets forty km far , everything without leaving their CAP racetrack.In addition, the Rafale OSF allowed the positive identification of hostile fighters forty kilometers far. And, *December 6, a MICA has been assigned its target - indeed virtually destroyed - only with the SPECTRA system. SPECTRA which was also capable, twice, to detect and classify - and to propose flight path changes to the pilot to avoid detection-specific envelope - some air defense systems (SA-6) that even the F-16 CJ American specialized in the SEAD mission (suppression of air defense opponents), yet also in flight, were not able to collect*




As you can see, just like F35s EO DAS (a so called 5. gen system), Spectra already provides enhanced situational awareness through 360° multi spectral full spherical coverage, weapon cueing, day and night navigation and all that besides the normal aim of an EWS, to detect threats and counter them by jammig, or using chaf and flares. 
Spectra, which it also does excellent (no kill by a ground target during Red Flag)! 
With techs like this it shouldn't surprising, why they found the French technology package more comprehensive and why the Rafale came out very close behind the F35 in the technical evaluation in the Netherlands.


Here some more infos about it:



> Self Defence:
> The Rafale's SPECTRA (Système de Protection et d'Evitement des Conduites de Tir du Rafale  Self Protection Equipment Countering Threats of Rafale Aircraft) is one of the most advanced EW suites ever created for a combat aircraft. Being of a modulare design, SPECTRA is controlled by the GIC computer (Gestion de l'Interface et Compatibilité) comprising 3 processors.
> The SPECTRA components include:
> - *3 digital RWR antennas with each 120° azimuth coverage* and a frequency coverage of 2 - 40 GHz mounted on the airlift intakes and at the rear of the SPECTRA fin tip pod. Functions/characteristics include:
> - detection localisation, identification and priorisation of radar emitters at distances *up to 200 km+* (EFs EWS has only half the detection range)
> - Bearing accuracy below 1° in azimuth using interferometry
> - *Weapon cueing* against ground based emitters
> - *ELINT/SIGINT*
> 
> - *Active ECM system with DRFM and AESA antennas* in the canard roots and in the tail pod at the base of the fin, with offensive, defensive and stealthy jamming modes. Pencil thin jamming beams are directed towards threat emitters
> 
> - *DDM* (Détecteur infrarouge de Départ de Missiles) missile approach warning system based on dual-band midwave IR sensors which are located on each side of the SPECTRA fin tip pod, providing 360° atimuth coverage
> 
> - 3 DAL (Detecteur dAlerte Laser) laser warning receivers with sensors on the fuselage sides and the rear of the SPECTRA fin tip pod
> 
> - 4 vertical firing flare/decoy dispensers on the top of the fuselage near the wing trailing edges and 2 chaff dispensers on the rear fuselage sides behind the wings
> 
> Note:
> The RWR and ECM systems are integrated as the DBEM (Détection et Brouillage Electromagnétique) sub-system.

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## sancho

Sorry, forgot this part:



LT.PRATEEK said:


> If you meant by destroying missile launchers ,
> one - you no longer remain passive
> second - you are giving away your own position
> 
> As you mention about cost wrt to weapons , any air-force would prefer cost-effective solution ? ? ?



Possible, but you need to keep in mind that we will have big numbers of cost-effective Russian and soon even indigenous weapons and the lesson we learned from Kargil should be, that it is good to have an capable alternative, be it on the weapon side, as well as for fighters.

The French already offered in Brazil that they can integrate their weapons like A Darter (WVR missile, co-developed with South Africa), or MAR-1 (anti-radiation missile) and so could we do it too. Our LGB should be more cost-effective than US Paveway bombs, just like Astra should be compared to MICA EM. But in addition to them, some more capable weapons like AASM, Meteor as well as Scalp missiles should be excellent to give IAF (sanction proof) alternatives in war times. Not to forget that we will use the same weapons till 2025 anyway with the upgraded Mirage 2000 fighters.

Regarding SEAD, if the earlier post about Spectra didn't make it clear, the following examples should:



> in an article written by a AASM programme responsable, Jean-Vincent Legrand, at Sagem, a EM variant for SEAD/DEAD would be useless (too costly, single use, and prone to jamming).
> The man explains that the INS/GPS, or even the INS/GPS/IIR should do the job well enough when coupled with the right RWR.
> 
> He explains two different scenarios:
> 
> - against short and medium range SAM, a Rafale will close in to the target, and as soon as Spectra provide accurate enough data, the weapon is fired ;
> - against long range SAM, Rafale will close in but this time it will fly as low as possible to benefit from terrain masks. The inconvenient is that in this case, the shooting rely on an external designation system.



Rafale detects radars, or ground targets with Spectra in long distances, as well in passive mode and can destroy them with AASM guided by Spectra too. The 250Kg version has ranges (similar to JDAM) of up to 60Km, the 125Kg weapons is said to have ranges up to 100Km and the Rafale/AASM combo has shown the capability to fire 6 AASM on 6 different targets in a single flyover.


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## KEETARP

I don't really understand why you brought EO-DAS into this . 
But what I can make out is you meant 

1) SPECTRA is =equal to or better than EO-DAS 
2) Euro-DAS dosen't gives all-round coverage .
3) F18G which is a dedicated EW platform is inferior to Rafale in Electronic attack capabilities
4) F18 having HARM for DEAD (in addition to excellent stand-of weapons) is at disadvantage to Rafale which dosen't have any HARM capability . 

Let me explain my POV 

1) EO-DAS is a generation ahead of SPECTRA , why ??
*Would be better if Gambit/DBC enlighten us * , 
but let me try for time-being by a quote by director L.Martin



> "Designated the AN/AAQ-37, and comprising six electro-optical sensors, the full EO DAS like EOTS , the F-35's distributed aperture system is incorporated in the fuselage design and does not require a pod. Six IR cameras--Porter calls them situation awareness "eyeballs" that create a flying "Imax"--are embedded in the aircraft, positioned to provide full spherical imagery around the aircraft.


 
The red - part explains very well why EO-DAS is unmatched . 
6ix optical IR ( Thermal imaging) cameras are distributed and integrated on aircraft's surface to provide a video/digital image into displays of not only threat but also whole battle-field picture .
Compare it to Rafale - Only *one *camera that is TV imaging  and that too a part of front-sector-optronics unit covering only a sector of hemisphere . 

Tests begin on Rafale optronics-05/05/1999-Flight International

read the first para of article about separate irst and separate tv imager 







See the difference in above image display when a camera is attached on rt side .


Until Rafle gets six such FSO distributed on air-craft , it wont get that Imax effect . In addition the other passive sensors of rafale don't have imaging camera so only provide information about threat not surrounding . 

Second about the technology of detection - Northrop.Grumman and L.Martin used infrared imaging instead of TV imaging for display . Additionly DAS used FPA(Focal plane array ) IR-detection and seeker coupled with Thermal-imager into a single unit to provide a better resolution/pixel/sensitivity into picture . 
FPA is present on AIM-9x+Python5 , while Mica+R73+OSF lacks it .
I am not going into details why Thermal imaging is better than TV imaging ( highly sensitive Thermal imager's are only allowed for military purposes speaks for itself ) 
but in short TV imager requires in addition to detectors - a Multiplexer + a transmission line + a FPS controller to render images at exactly at 25FPS to avoid flickering + A synchronizer to deactivate pixel-by pixel photons and brightness to match display, 
Further everytime a Pixelated picture is generated - TV scans the pixels line by line (ignoring interlace), starting at the top, say left hand corner, scanning to the end of the line, then jumping back to the beginning of the second line and repeating the process until the whole image has been scanned, top to bottom.
All of this must of course happen within the short period of time allocated to that particular frame. The process is thus repeated, say 25 times a second. *Here is where one of the troublesome aspects of TV becomes apparent. Consider an array of say 488 x 380 pixels. To transmit a continuous TV picture we must then transmit around 185,000 brightness samples 25 times a second and that is a lot of information (around 2000 voice channels)*. The problem is unfortunate as the finer the resolution (or higher the pixel density) or quality of the picture, the greater the channel capacity required, which translates into faster and thus more expensive electronics.

*In comparison the FPA* - 
*FPAs are however much easier to support than vidicon based TV and mechanically scanned FLIR*, as most of the timing, control and level amplifying electronics are very *compact* (and often on the same substrate) and consume little power. The only outside support required is refrigeration (i.e. placing the whole FPA into a Dewar module, or glueing it on to a thermoelectric Peltier solid state refrigerator) and of course mechanical stabilisation.
initially filters out visible and undesired infrared light with a special window (usually an interference filter, hence the mirror look). The 'cleaned up' (spectrally) IR then enters the optics, which provide specific viewing angles (usually NFOV and WFOV) for specific systems, the optics are usually changed mechanically. 
Signal processing chips (here virtually only the die) and connections are then also attached, creating a hybrid module instead of separate link channels . 
There are two broad families of FPAs, discrete and monolithic 
Monolithic FPAs come in two basic families, the simpler CID (Charge Injection Device) and the more sophisticated CCD (Charge Coupled Device) , *The CCD imaging array contains all the necessary support circuits and as such is a complete TV camera, needing only a lens and wires to connect up the power and a timing reference (sync)*.


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## calcutta

*MMRCA : Contenders to be eliminated this week*

7 July, 2010, 2:14 pm


IAF (Indian Air Force) is all set to submit its technical evaluation committees report by end of this week to Ministry of Defence (MOD), on basics of this report six manufactures which have offered their fighter aircrafts to Indian air force to fulfill their requirement of 126 jets will be narrowed down to four to three contenders, IAF after testing this aircrafts all over India and also after carrying out weapon testing in their home country will submit their report.

IAF to avoid any misunderstanding and legal process which might further delay acquisition of this jet will provide detail report and information on why this jets where rejected and on what basis they did not meet IAFs requirement, as per source one American jet might be axed in this round other been unknown yet.

MOD will be the one to decide which jet it wants to order and IAF will only be recommending 3 to 4 contenders which can fulfill its requirements, for first time IAF and MOD other than the price will also look into cost of operation and life cycle of the jets before making any decisions , Defence experts have already indicated that it will be more of a political decision and Price factor will play limited role in decision making .

American jet manufactures have not revised their prices and Gripen and Euro fighter manufactures have offered reduced price factor which might play an important role in decision making since recently IAF informed MOD that it cannot calculate cost of life cycle of the jets accurately.

Recently France backed out of providing Avionics kit for Sino-Pakistani JF-17 and Russia is trying to please India by not providing RD-33 engines to China which currently powers again Jf-17, these measures have been seen by Defence expert to please India.


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## KEETARP

About Euro-Dass


> but actually it uses the wingtip stations for the ECM pods and that indeed occupies weapon stations just like poded version before. Spectra instead has the pod at the tail fin and is really a fully integrated system.



Being not internal , Dosen't mean that its not integrated , 
internal or external dosen't matters till integration is being compromised. Even Rafale has conformal antennae's outside .
+plus quote from BR monitor - " Jamming pods are (by contrast to internal ECM) more effective as they are externally mounted and can cover an arc of almost 360 degrees and don't suffer from heating / power issues . 



> Also the normal DASS includes only the ECM pods with RWRs, MAWs, LWRs, or TD are only optional features and only UK EFs use them all so far. Spectra instead combines these features at once!



Dosen't mean , Typhoon lacks those components 
Or dosen't imply other countries won't have access to them 

From your quote only - 


> The modular nature of the DASS has also resulted in each consortium nation refining their individual DASS fits. At this time it is becoming increasingly clear that only the Royal Air Force Typhoon's will employ the full set of detection and counter measure systems originally envisaged. However this can be seen as being of potential benefit for overseas purchases who will be able to specify individual fits tailored to their requirements. An additional benefit of using such a modular system is that upgrade paths can be somewhat simplified.
> At the present time (mid-2000) discussions are already underway as to future improvements in the DASS architecture for each subsequent Tranche. This will lead to later Eurofighter's benefiting from complete 360&#176; spherical detection and protection capabilities. However even in its current state DASS represents one of the most advanced self-protection systems available.



*First link is a decade old mid 2000 , compare it to 2010 to be fair *
second i have highlighted Red part which explains everything - ( note this line ) Benefit to export ..........................






About 360 degress coverage , 
i gave you scanned copy of brochure stating all-round coverage , here it is again . yellow marker highlight on left side 






About F18's SEAD capability , 
-don't you think having HARM is an asset to F18
-Stand-of weapons from US are cheap won't that be an advantage to F18
-Growler having ability to carry 5An/ALq99 and other wide-band Jammers with 50Kw power is better than small conformal jammers of Rafale . 

We are talking of Jet's capability , not in terms of MRCA benefits .


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## sancho

LT.PRATEEK said:


> I don't really understand why you brought EO-DAS into this .


Because that was what I initially said, that at the moment there is no comparable EWS that can offer similar capabilities in a 360&#176; field except the coming EO DAS of F35.



LT.PRATEEK said:


> But what I can make out is you meant
> 
> 1) SPECTRA is =equal to or better than EO-DAS
> 2) Euro-DAS dosen't gives all-round coverage .
> 3) F18G which is a dedicated EW platform is inferior to Rafale in Electronic attack capabilities
> 4) F18 having HARM for DEAD (in addition to excellent stand-of weapons) is at disadvantage to Rafale which dosen't have any HARM capability .



1) I always said similar, or comparable, because too less is known so far about EO DAS and it's way too early to make fair comparisons, but what is clear so far, is that Spectra already provides similar capabilities!
2. Not all-around coverage with enhanced situational awarness, or cueing capabilities, it offers it mainly for countermesures and as I pointed out, similar capabilities like Spectra, or EO DAS could only be available in future, while Rafale can offer it for IAF through MMRCA!
3 and 4, I never mentioned F18 in my post, so not sure how you came to that conclusion. 
What I said before is, that the only weapon that F18SH can offer without a direct counterpart for Rafale is the Harm so far, but as I pointed out that doesn't mean that the Rafale can't do SEAD. The French simply uses another strategy here, that's all.



> The weapons most often associated with this mission are anti-radiation missiles (ARMs) such as the American AGM-88 HARM and British ALARM. *Weapons used for SEAD missions can be anything which damages or destroys a component of an air defense system. A Paveway LGB, for example, is not a SEAD-specific munition but, when used to destroy a radar antenna, it achieves the objective of Suppression of Enemy Air Defense.*
> 
> Possibly the most effective type of unguided ("dumb") weapon used during SEAD strikes are cluster bombs, because many SAM sites are dispersed over a fairly wide area, in order to increase the difficulty of inflicting serious damage on the battery, and the relative "softness" of the targets (missile launchers, exposed radars, etc.). The Mk-20 Rockeye II anti-armor cluster munition and the CBU-87 general-purpose cluster munition are often used against these fixed-location SAM sites, often for "clean-up" of a site whose radar or C&C facilities are first destroyed by a longer-range ARM or AGM. The relatively new American AGM-154 Joint Standoff Weapon is a valuable SEAD weapon due to its fairly long standoff range which allows the launching aircraft to avoid being threatened by all but the longest-range missiles, and its relatively large area of destruction against soft targets.



Suppression of Enemy Air Defenses - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




LT.PRATEEK said:


> Let me explain my POV
> 
> 1) EO-DAS is a generation ahead of SPECTRA , why ??
> 
> The red - part explains very well why EO-DAS is unmatched .
> 6ix optical IR ( Thermal imaging) cameras are distributed and integrated on aircraft's surface to provide a *video/digital image into displays of not only threat but also whole battle-field picture *.
> Compare it to Rafale - Only one camera that is TV imaging and that too a part of front-sector-optronics unit covering only a sector of hemisphere .



 You mean like this?






For comparison, here the view of EO DAS IR sensors:







*NG DDM*:



> DDM NG was launched at the end of 2007, this first programme of flight trials has produced extremely convincing results. As a result, the DGA has ordered DDM NG equipments for the 60 Rafale combat aircraft which were ordered in December 2009 *for delivery commencing in 2012.*
> The concept behind DDM NG is the ability to detect incoming attacking missiles *from any direction and angle of attack* with regard to the host aircraft. It will succeed the current DDM system on the Rafale as a &#8220;form, fit and function&#8221; replacement. DDM NG incorporates a new infrared array detector which enhances performance with regard to the range at which a missile firing will be detected, offers improved rejection of false alarms and gives an angular localisation capability which will be compatible with the future use of Directional Infra Red Counter Measures (DIRCM). *With two sensors, each equipped with a fish-eye lens, DDM NG provides a spherical field of view around the aircraft.*





LT.PRATEEK said:


> Second about the technology of detection - Northrop.Grumman and L.Martin used infrared imaging instead of TV imaging for display . Additionly DAS used FPA(Focal plane array ) IR-detection and seeker coupled with Thermal-imager into a single unit to provide a better resolution/pixel/sensitivity into picture .
> FPA is present on AIM-9x+Python5 , while Mica+R73+OSF lacks it .



So your point is, that because MICA don't has FPA, the French don't have it at all? 
Sorry to disappoint you again:



> *Damocles (France), Airborne electro optic (EO) systems*
> 
> Description
> Damocles is a multimode, multifunction Laser Designator Pod (LDP) *that incorporates a staring Focal Plane Array (FPA) Generation 2.5 Thermal Imager (TI)*, operating in the 3 to 5 &#181;m waveband...



Damocles (France) - Jane's Avionics



> *AREOS : Airborne Reconnaissance Electro Optical System*
> 
> Main characteristics
> 
> * *A pod integrating - 2 large sized focal plane arrays in the visible and in the 3-5 &#956;m infrared* - 2 wide and 2 narrow high resolution fields of view, both in the visible and in the infrared
> * High speed IR scanner for panoramic acquisition at very low altitudes
> * Mobile bearing-mounted pod head for an optimal flexibility
> * Recce Management System incorporating advanced operational functions and stereoscopic data acquisition, link management and digital recording



AREOS Airborne Reconnaissance Electro Optical System - Thales


If you like it, or not my friend, Spectra and its capabilities are unique in the MMRCA competition and are comparable to F35 EO DAS.


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## KEETARP

So much talk of systems being internal mounted and integrated . And we come down to Damocles + Aeros 

Is Damocles+Aeros part of rafale airframe - no 
Is it part of Spectra/OSF - no 
Will it be offered free of cost with every rafale - no 
Does F35 need targeting pod like Damocles - no it has EOTS blended into the nose .

Compare above to EO-DASS finely blended 6 optical cameras into the air-frame , which need no pod whatsoever 

To add 
OSF+MICA clearly lack FPA seeker , while AIM9x+EO-DASS incorporates one , which gives F35 advantage .
Below image mentions Scanning IR seeker of Mica while Python5+Aim9x have starring FPA array 






How does it matter , becoz Sensor fusion also involves missile's seeker 






Aim-9x seeker from F18 dosen't need inputs from EOTS of f18 /EO-DASS of f35 it can itself work as an additional sensor even before launch . FPA not only gives sensitivity but also tracking range enhancement . For the time being-I am not going to describe how FPA does that .

Like it or not Damocles/Aeros are not unique , even Sukhoi-30 carries wide range of ISTAR and targeting system 



> For intelligence, surveillance, targeting for attack and reconnaissance (ISTAR) operations during both peacetime and wartime, the IAF has decided to equip its Su-30MKIs with Elbit Systems' Condor-2 LOROP pod and ELTA's 590kg EL/M-2060P belly-mounted inverse synthetic aperture radar (ISAR) capable of tracking ground targets&#8212;both stationary and mobile&#8212;300km away and using the EL/K-1850 microwave data link operating in C-band, Ku-band and X-band for transmitting battlespace reconnaissance data to ground-based Corps-level HQs in real-time. generates in real-time synthetic aperture radar-based (SAR) maps approaching photographic quality (in both STRIP and SPOT modes) and ground moving target imagery (GMTI) while cruising at an altitude of more than 45,000 feet, and are capable of penetrating clouds, rain, smoke, fog and smog. The Su-30MKIs have already been equipped with a SIGINT suite (derived from the DARE-developed SIVA HADF pod) that will search, intercept, measure, localise, analyse, classify and monitor short-duration ground and airborne transmissions and their signals parameters&#8212;all aimed at building up, in real time, a picture of the electronic order of battle . In addition all su-30 will be equipped with Litening targeting pod incorporating state-of-the-art Infra-red and Laser technologies .



Regarding SEAD - 
Why French do differently to what US/Russia is doing - Is it because they are better without HARM , Or is US system junk ----No
because Rafale has no other alternative and lacks behind not only F18 but Su30 as well .

To continue the discussion on SPECTRA - You tell me one subsystem or capability of Rafale/SPECTRA to which Eurofighter/F18E/growler /F35 has no alternative . 
Don't bring in 90Kms range for OSF etc etc etc , because Ranges for F18/Eurofighter/F35 are more or less classified .


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## jha

*Thales reveals 'cloud' concept for Rafale radar technologies​*
Thales has revealed the first details of its new technology roadmap for the Dassault Rafale's radar and electronic warfare systems, which it believes could create opportunities to equip several other aircraft types over the next 20 years.

The new concept allows for the insertion of future technologies, such as gallium nitride transmit/receive modules, by using a so-called "cloud" architecture, says Pierre-Yves Chaltiel, head of electronic combat systems for Thales Airborne Systems.

Likely to be available within the next several years, the new T/R modules would enable Thales to reduce the depth of the antenna on the Rafale's RBE2 active electronically scanned array radar. Within a period of 10-12 years, it could also allow additional sensors to be embedded elsewhere within an aircraft's structure to enhance its overall sensor coverage.




The advance would also deliver increases in processing power, bandwidth capability and electronic counter-countermeasures characteristics, Thales claims.

For the Rafale, Chaltiel says a key benefit of the "cloud" concept would be to allow technologies to be added without having to re-qualify all the software used in the fighter's radar and Spectra EW packages. "The key is the systems knowledge - the processing power coupled with the radar and overall aircraft integration," he says.

The same technology could also be adopted for use by maritime patrol aircraft and airborne early warning platforms, or even offered as part of future mid-life upgrades for the Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon and Saab Gripen under a possible co-operation agreement with other European radar manufacturers, Chaltiel believes. "Thales is ready and open for co-operation," he says.

French industry and the nation's DGA defence procurement agency have made combined investments worth over 1 billion ($1.2 billion) in sensor development for the Rafale over the last decade or so, and Chaltiel confirms that the nation is "already working on advanced technology demonstrators for the future".

Meanwhile, Thales will in August deliver the first of three production-standard AESA RBE2 arrays to the defence ministry to support test activities with the Rafale. The new sensor will enter squadron service in 2012 as part of France's December 2009 order for a fourth tranche of 60 Rafales.

"The system is far different, in range and capacity of intercept in a multi-threat environment," Chaltiel says.

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## sancho

Come on Prateek, keep the discussion on a fair base and don't put words in my mouth please!



LT.PRATEEK said:


> To add
> OSF+MICA clearly lack FPA seeker , while AIM9x+EO-DASS incorporates one , which gives F35 advantage .
> Below image mentions Scanning IR seeker of Mica while Python5+Aim9x have starring FPA array...
> 
> ...Like it or not Damocles/Aeros are not unique , even Sukhoi-30 carries wide range of ISTAR and targeting system


 
I never said that OSF, or MICA have that technology, neither did I say that the Damocles/Aeros pod are unique. The point was that you claimed only the US has FPA, which is not true, because as I showed you, the French are using it even in the older versions of both pods. 




LT.PRATEEK said:


> So much talk of systems being internal mounted and integrated . And we come down to Damocles + Aeros
> 
> Is Damocles+Aeros part of rafale airframe - no
> Is it part of Spectra/OSF - no
> Will it be offered free of cost with every rafale - no
> Does F35 need targeting pod like Damocles - no it has EOTS blended into the nose .
> 
> Compare above to EO-DASS finely blended 6 optical cameras into the air-frame , which need no pod whatsoever



If you had read my first and my last post about a bit better, you would have noticed, that the *NG DDM* is the tech that offers similar IR images in a full 360° coverage as EO DAS does and that it is integrated to both sides of the Spectra tail fin pod.

As you can see here:






So as EA DAS, Spectra is fully integrated and offers similar capabilties!




LT.PRATEEK said:


> Regarding SEAD -
> Why French do differently to what US/Russia is doing - Is it because they are better without HARM , Or is US system junk ----No
> because Rafale has no other alternative and lacks behind not only F18 but Su30 as well .



That's your personal opinion and as it seems out of emotions, so calm down and try to understand. Besides that MBDA has also the ALARM anti radiation missiles available, that Rafale could use if they wanted such a missile, the French simply seems to think that there are better strategies for SEAD and maybe they are even right:



> Another measure of efficiency pertains to tactics. One common SEAD tactic to fire numerous HARM missiles preemptively  that is, in the direction of a SAM that is suspected to exist, but which hasnt turned on its radar. *Thirty three* of 56 HARMs used in Operation Deliberate Force were fired preemptively.11 *Over 1,000 HARMs in Operation Allied Force were fired at only a handful of SAMs, suggesting many preemptive shots*.12 While using HARMs in this way may effectively deter adversaries rom shooting SAMs or AAA at U.S. aircraft, it also poses two problem areas. First, *preemptive HARM use can be expensive since HARMs cost approximately $250,000 per missile*. Second, *preemptively fired HARMs present a fratricide risk*. If there are no enemy radar emissions for the HARM to guide on, the missile could lock-on to friendly emissions and destroy the wrong target. According to Lt. Gen. Michael Short, The preemptive HARM shot, when it opens its eyes and there is nothing for it to see, takes off like a mad dog. At least six HARMs (shot during Kosovo) ended up by accident in Bulgaria.13 While launching HARMs preemptively may be an effective and necessary tactic, it not an efficient tactic. More importantly, reliance on this tactic may be an indication of intelligence and targeting cycle shortfalls that may need to be addressed.



http://www.fas.org/man/crs/RS21141.pdf

As you can see, fireing a missile from distance, only because it's the save solution don't have to be the best solution!




LT.PRATEEK said:


> To continue the discussion on SPECTRA - You tell me one subsystem or capability of Rafale/SPECTRA to which Eurofighter/F18E/growler /F35 has no alternative .
> Don't bring in 90Kms range for OSF etc etc etc , because Ranges for F18/Eurofighter/F35 are more or less classified .



LOL, again I don't understand why you bring things up that where not part of the discussion. We both agreed earlier that F18 Growler is not available for India, so why should we compare its capabilities with one of the MMRCA contenders? 
The only point why I compared Spectra with EO DAS is, because both are pretty comparable in capabilities and it shows where the French, or at least the Spectra EWS lies in terms of advanced avionics. Neither the EF, nor the normal F18SH has similar capabilities, that's what I said before and what my opinon is. 
In several exercises it proved itself in the SEAD role and only HARM can be fired from 100Km, while AASM "only" from around 50Km makes it less useful. There are different weapons and different strategies for this role and with Spectra and AASM, Rafale seems to be more than useful for it. Also because you mentioned the MKI, just as I said before, it is good to have fighters and weapons that gives IAF different capabilities. So if MKI can do the high altitude distance strikes and Rafale the low level deep penetration strikes, wouldn't it be a perfect combination for IAF?


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## KEETARP

> Come on Prateek, keep the discussion on a fair base and don't put words in my mouth please!



Really , and how abt this statement below



> The point was that you claimed only the US has FPA, which is not true


Where did I claim only US has such Tech . ??
My previous post still lie un-edited would love to be located where I claimed that 
On the contrary you tried to put words into my mouth -


> So your point is, that because MICA don't has FPA, the French don't have it at all?


While I only stated facts , whether you accept it or not OSF+Mica lacks FPA that is a fact .

To add 


> So as EA DAS, Spectra is fully integrated and offers similar capabilties!


I have shown EO-DASS has two critical tech ahead of Rafale , still you don't accept that F35 has better capability . Way to Go 



> Another measure of efficiency pertains to tactics. One common SEAD tactic to fire numerous HARM missiles preemptively  that is, in the direction of a SAM that is suspected to exist, but which hasnt turned on its radar. Thirty three of 56 HARMs used in Operation Deliberate Force were fired preemptively.11 Over 1,000 HARMs in Operation Allied Force were fired at only a handful of SAMs, suggesting many preemptive shots.12 While using HARMs in this way may effectively deter adversaries rom shooting SAMs or AAA at U.S. aircraft, it also poses two problem areas. First, preemptive HARM use can be expensive since HARMs cost approximately $250,000 per missile. Second, preemptively fired HARMs present a fratricide risk. If there are no enemy radar emissions for the HARM to guide on, the missile could lock-on to friendly emissions and destroy the wrong target. According to Lt. Gen. Michael Short, The preemptive HARM shot, when it opens its eyes and there is nothing for it to see, takes off like a mad dog. At least six HARMs (shot during Kosovo) ended up by accident in Bulgaria.13 While launching HARMs preemptively may be an effective and necessary tactic, it not an efficient tactic. More importantly, reliance on this tactic may be an indication of intelligence and targeting cycle shortfalls that may need to be addressed.



Yes ,and from the same FAS site 

 Restricting weapons firing until specific conditions are met reduces potential fratricide as well as avoids inefficient weapons employment. However, ROE must be optimized for all platforms in theater and take into account each system's capabilities and limitations. Each service employs ARMs with different objectives and philosophies. Individual service platforms can employ ARMs with varying degrees of accuracy. To improve integration during a joint campaign, each service must understand how the other executes ARM employment. Likewise, inaccurate targeting and fratricide is prevented by knowing how friendly ground and naval emitters operate. Joint planners must extensively coordinate all aspects of ARM employment during a SEAD campaign. Critical to planning is the transmission of friendly emitter order of battle information to the aircrews. Timely, accurate data, combined with appropriate ROE and knowledge of ambiguous theater systems, will overcome the obstacles presented by a dense frequency spectrum.
New systems and/or improvements to existing systems are required to ensure successful accomplishment of the lethal SEAD mission. In the near term, an upgrade to Harm Targeting System (HTS) will be fielded in 1999. Eventual augmentation or replacement of the HTS with an improved emitter targeting and passive identification system will provide expanded frequency coverage, more precise target location information and unambiguous emitter identification capability. Multi-ship targeting will provide great improvements in targeting accuracy and timeliness. It will require data link capability for real-time targeting of both reactive and preemptive target sets.
For the future, CINCS are demanding reliable, one-shot hard kills against threat radar, even if the radar shuts down prior to missile impact. The Navy has a three-step program to develop this capability for HARM.

HARM Block 3a and 5 software updates have completed testing and were incorporated as a software only engineering change starting in August 1999. The software improves missile performance against several threat countermeasures. The Block V software upgrade was fielded in 1999 and incorporates tighter control of missile flight path to reduce the risk of fratricide and increase kill probability. AGM-88C Block 5 missiles also feature a lethal capability against high power GPS jammers showcased in fleet battle experiments. To ensure continued EA-6B compatibility, OFP's SSA 5.2 and 89A 1.0 have been developed by the Weapons System Support Activity, Point Mugu, California. Both are baselined from 5.1 COD, will include HARM III/IIIA/IV/V, and are supported by the same TEAMS release. Two successful live fires of IIIA and V missiles from Block 89A aircraft were made in September 1998 and were followed by Block 82/89 live fires. The differences in the OFP software is nearly transparent to the fleet. The 89A 1.0 OFP has been optimized for the Block 89A avionics architecture that includes a second 1553 navigation bus and CDNU bus control.
The international HARM upgrade program (AGM-88D Block 6 is the US designation) is a cooperative software and hardware upgrade. It will incorporate a current state of the art GPS/IMU in place of the original mechanical gyros to improve missile precision, increase kill probability, and further reduce the probability of fratricide. As a by-product, the missile will have a high-speed, point-to-point capability. Plans call for retrofit kit production in 2003.
The Advanced Anti-Radiation Guided Missile (AARGM) project is adding to the Block VI capability by demonstrating technology for RF homing integration with an active millimeter wave terminal seeker to provide a counter-shutdown capability. Fielding this capability could be in the 2005 time-frame.

Above is a copy-paste from FAS site , site which hasn't been upgraded for years , and today what HARM has in its kitty only US would know ??  
To add to the woes , you haven't highlighted the problems of SEAD mission without ARM . I wrote it before
1- You don't remain passive 
2- You give away your position 
In which case , you are under more threat ? ? ?



> Neither the EF, nor the normal F18SH has similar capabilities, that's what I said before and what my opinon is that's what I said before and what my opinon is



*Claim was no other system except F35 has Passive detection 360 like Spectra ,
and I proved DASS+PRETORIAN provide 360 passive detection 
courtsey scanned pictures of official Brochure . That too twice* .



> LOL, again I don't understand why you bring things up that where not part of the discussion. We both agreed earlier that F18 Growler is not available for India, so why should we compare its capabilities with one of the MMRCA contenders?



If you go thru my previous posts , I clearly wrote - We are talking of Jet and capabilities only & not in terms of benefits to MRCA tender. 
Even I would like to see rafale in IAF . But dosen't mean other Jets are behind Rafale , that's my point 
You call for an unbiased comparison , I am not biased in first place .
I see every Jet in MRCA on par with each other , everyone excelling in one or other field while lacking in some other .
I have supported F18+Eurofighter+F35+Su30+Gripen+Mig35 , in fact every Jet flying around . 
Its not only Rafale that has unique capability or weapons . 
Time you look beyond Rafale 

Brings another question in mind , 
Do you believe Export version of Spectra will be similar to original one , and will its critical technology be handed over to India .


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## KEETARP

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> ..not the right thread to spread your ignorance. Neither the F-22 nor the F-35 are in the MRCA competition so please stay on topic - thank you.



I would say since SPECTRA vs EO-DASS has been started in MRCA 
Your insight will be highly appreciated . 

One more favour - I remember you wrote somewhere 
*" F22 and F35 2nd gen AESA radar field Ga-Ni chip"*
and you posted these below pics 










Would like the links to those original articles about tech .


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## sancho

LT.PRATEEK said:


> Where did I claim only US has such Tech . ??
> My previous post still lie un-edited would love to be located where I claimed that



That's the way I understand you, that's why I even asked you if that was correct, but the only reply was again about MICA and FSO don't have that tech, while EO DAS and AIM 9X has it. So why suddenly these switch to MICA and FSO capabilities that has nothing to do with what we were talking about?
Then please explain once again, what it has to do with Spectra, that MICA and FSO don't have such a tech?




LT.PRATEEK said:


> I have shown EO-DASS has two critical tech ahead of Rafale , still you don't accept that F35 has better capability . Way to Go



Not really, you have claimed, but because you didn't undnerstand how the same capability is available in Spectra, that's why you thought it would be in the Damocles pod. Spectra and EO DAS offers full spherical IR imaging, the only difference is that EO DAS uses 6 IR sensors all around the aircraft and Spectra 2 (possibly 3) at the tail fin pod, the result is as the pics show the same, which you can't deny. As I said above, I understand your 2nd point, that only Northrop.Grumman and L.Martin uses such a tech, which is not true as I showed you. So there is no critical tech missing like you said and Spectra indeed is very similar in capabilties to EO DAS. 




LT.PRATEEK said:


> To add to the woes , you haven't highlighted the problems of SEAD mission without ARM . I wrote it before
> 1- You don't remain passive
> 2- You give away your position
> In which case , you are under more threat ? ? ?



I did, check post 2161/ 62:



> Spectra provides *passive*, all-weather reliable, *long-range detection, identification and geographical location of threats in the infrared, electromagnectic and electro-optical ranges*...
> ...The angular localization performance of Spectra makes it possible *to precisely discover ground threats and to target them for immediate destruction with precision-guided munitions. In this totally passive mode*, Spectra is also used as a general awareness and intelligence reporting system...
> ...He explains two different scenarios:
> 
> - against short and medium range SAM, a Rafale will close in to the target, and as soon as Spectra provide accurate enough data, the weapon is fired ;
> - against long range SAM, Rafale will close in but this time it will fly as low as possible to benefit from terrain masks. The inconvenient is that in this case, the shooting rely on an external designation system.



So even if it don't uses ARM, it will detect, identify and destry ground targets in passive mode!




LT.PRATEEK said:


> Claim was no other system except F35 has Passive detection 360 like Spectra ,
> and I proved DASS+PRETORIAN provide 360 passive detection
> courtsey scanned pictures of official Brochure . That too twice.



You still don't get it right? Pretorian can detect missiles, possibly is 360° (if all features are integrated), but can't enhance the situational awareness by passive detection the way Spectra, or EO DAS can. It also can't cue weapons passively to targets, can't give and 360° IR image and I even provided you a source that said, that these capabilities could only be possible for future versions of Pretorian. 
The detection of an incoming missile and countering it with chaf, flares... should be the minimum what an EWS must do, that is something that all EWS can (and I even expect Pretorian to be good in that field), but only Spectra in MMRCA and EO DAS in general can be used in such additional ways and that's what makes them superior, or NG systems. 




LT.PRATEEK said:


> I see every Jet in MRCA on par with each other , everyone excelling in one or other field while lacking in some other.


How can you really believe that an EF for example, where the parters will decide only by july 20th about the new AESA radar development and doesn't have a minimum of A2G weapons integrated to make it a multi role fighter, is on par with fully a developed fighter like F18SH for example? Any fighters has advantages and disadvantages, the difference is some have more than other once and also in different fields, but most of them are clearly not on par with ich other.




LT.PRATEEK said:


> I have supported F18+Eurofighter+F35+Su30+Gripen+Mig35 , in fact every Jet flying around .
> Its not only Rafale that has unique capability or weapons .
> Time you look beyond Rafale



I never said something like that, on contrary I always said that Rafale offers the most advantages in different fields, while Gripen NG is the cost-effective choice and imo even the better choice than EF, also that F18SH, although not a bad fighter, will be chosen mainly for political advantages. That's my opinion for a long time and it didn't changed too!



LT.PRATEEK said:


> Do you believe Export version of Spectra will be similar to original one , and will its critical technology be handed over to India .


Not sure about it's jamming capabilities, or threat liberies, but the enhanced situational awareness features are all integrated in that system, not only optional, so they should be available for sure.


----------



## KEETARP

> Pretorian can detect missiles, possibly is 360° (if all features are integrated), but can't enhance the situational awareness by passive detection the way Spectra, or EO DAS can. It also can't cue weapons passively to targets, can't give and 360° IR image and I even provided you a source that said, that these capabilities could only be possible for future versions of Pretorian.
> The detection of an incoming missile and countering it with chaf, flares... should be the minimum what an EWS must do, that is something that all EWS can (and I even expect Pretorian to be good in that field), but only Spectra in MMRCA and EO DAS in general can be used in such additional ways and that's what makes them superior, or NG systems





> Spectra and EO DAS offers full spherical IR imaging, the only difference is that EO DAS uses 6 IR sensors all around the aircraft and Spectra 2 (possibly 3) at the tail fin pod, the result is as the pics show the same, which you can't deny. As I said above, I understand your 2nd point, that only Northrop.Grumman and L.Martin uses such a tech, which is not true as I showed you. So there is no critical tech missing like you said and Spectra indeed is very similar in capabilties to EO DAS.



Let's see 
-This NG-DDM having 2 IR imaging sensor are *part of MAWS* ???? right 
-Program of DDM-NG started in 2007 and has gone *just one* set of trials.?? This will become certified for operation *only* in 2012 not before , ??
-*It lacks DIRCM* and there are no plans in France as yet to fit Rafale with ability to cue a directed infrared countermeasures system, giving electronic warfare subsystem . . correct ??

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blog...&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest

DDM, new generation missile warning system for rafale - MBDA

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forum...-Rafale-News&p=4857760&viewfull=1#post4857760

*Now when you say NG-DDM(Part of MAWS) giving you IR imaging while Eurofighter lacking it* .

*You should have also checked about PIMAWS on Eurofighter*

link - Eurofighter Technology and Performance : Defences



> The second and more likely potential replacement, announced by Germany's Bodenseewerk Geratechnik (BGT) in June 2001, is termed *PIMAWS, or Passive Infra-red Missile Approach Warning System*. PIMAWS began development in 1997 as an advanced technology demonstrator jointly funded by the German Ministry of Defence and BGT, the project is due to complete in 2003. The system is intended for installation as Line-Replaceable Units in both of the wing-tip pods achieving full spherical coverage. The detector portion of the system is a step-stare infra-red sensor operating in the 3-5µm frequency range allowing for both air to air and surface to air missile detection up to the post-burn-out phase. All the resulting data is fed into a custom designed image processing system utilising a Systolic Array Processor and DSP. Over 64 targets can be tracked simultaneously and through a built-in threat library they can also be determined. All the resulting data can be fed via a STANAG-1553B databus to the rest of the avionics, here one unit acts as the master the other the slave. This should allow the information to be fused with the other AIS sources. *Although ground tests have been carried out and flight tests are scheduled for October 2001 no decisions have been reached by EADS or the partner nations as to whether PIMAWS will be integrated into Eurofighter*.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The image shows IR-sensor location on each side .





> that these capabilities *could only be possible* for future versions of Pretorian.


Sancho article you posted for above quote is good 9 years/decade old .
Just 3 years later in 2003 PIMAWS was available 
*I already showed above PIMAWS is just like DDM-NG and development started in 1997 much before DDM-NG* , and all ground testing was complete
what is its operational status now - Only users would know ,Germany in this case also happen to be leading MRCA campaign .
What is known now till date is that all MAWS on non-German typhoons have Active MAWS instead of Passive like DDM-NG/PIMAWS and that is an advantage in terms of Range and dependence on motor stage of missile
*To add PIMAWS also has FPA staring array , and there will be minimum 3 stations for PIMAWS , with option of 2 more on wingtip mounted ECM pods having these MAS in addition to 3 , depending upon user *.
A user if wants can have any configuration of Typhoon / MKIze it 
See the picture for DASS i posted 2 posts back 

For last time 
I think discussion started with claims that Eurofighter dosen't have 360 Passive detection and only Rafale has one such thing 

OSF = PIRATE
DDM-NG = PIMAWS 
SPECTRA = DASS + PRETORIAN 

"_Other sensors can include radar warning receivers (RWR), laser warning receiver (LWR) and a missile approach warner (MAW), integrated within an advanced defensive aids subsystem (DASS). This airframe-integrated system (no external pods needed), developed by the Euro-DASS consortium led by BAE Systems, includes the following:
*A wideband (below 100-MHz to 10-GHz) 360-degree scanning RWR* and active jammer, with antennas at each wingtip and on the fuselage;
Pulse Doppler-based MAW sensors on wing leading edges and tailcone; and
An LWR in front of the cockpit, plus (on RAF aircraft) expendable towed radar decoys.
Threats can be identified by comparing their signatures with those stored in an extensive threat library_



> Not all-around coverage with *enhanced situational awarness*, or cueing capabilities, it offers it mainly for countermesures and as I pointed out, similar capabilities like Spectra, or EO DAS could only be available in future, while Rafale can offer it for IAF through MMRCA!
> Then please explain once again, what it has to do with Spectra, that MICA and FSO don't have such a tech?



I think discussion started with claim that only Rafale can provide 360 passive Situational Awareness (SA) .
I have shown Eurofighter and F35+F18 does also so 

And this enhanced situational awareness comes with excellent fusion of data obtained by all active and passive sensors on aircraft whether FLIR-IRST/OSF/MICA seeker /RBE2/ SPECTRA and its subsystem etc 
Isn't FSO a part of *Passive Optronics sensor* covering the Frontal hemisphere of circular area around Rafale with double range of Ddm-ng or not ???
Dassault claim that Rafale have 360 SA bcoz of comprehensive Sensor fusion between FSO - I posted a pic about sensor fusion back .

Ability to cue MICA with SPECTRA only or an ASRAAM with DASS only (when radar is shut off ) requires sync of seeker on both missile & aircraft . 
This comes with sensor-fusion which Euro-fighter has , once DASS picks up threat it prioritizes and displays it on HMS of pilot , same as SPECTRA will pick up and display it on center AMLCD . 

If answer is No - FSO isn't part of SA , then Thank you for information .

If yes , then 6IR sensor of F35 have FPA + additional in EOTS , while only 2 out of 3 IR-sensor of Rafale have FSO .
To add if you are counting MAWS sensor , even F35 has MAWS in addition to EO-DAS imo & adding those sensors(whether active or Ir/UV passive ) count goes up more than 6+xxxx. 
I am sure anyone can figure out , no-matter whatever you say 2DDM+1OSF sensor will not give SA which 6-8 better IR sensor provide in F35 . 
One more thing MAW on Eurofighter *have ability to cue DIRCM * while DDM-NG lacks one .
And just like DDM-NG , Malaysian su30MKM have MAW-300 + South African Gripen c,d have MAW -300 with IR imaging surrounding the aircraft .
http://www.defence-guide.com/airfor...vices/missile-approach-warning-system-maw-300
Gripen NG will have even better system with UV filter to rule out sunlight clutter .




> against short and medium range SAM, a Rafale will close in to the target, and as soon as Spectra provide accurate enough data, the weapon is fired ;
> - against long range SAM, Rafale will close in but this time it will fly as low as possible to benefit from terrain masks. The inconvenient is that in this case, the shooting rely on an external designation system.



If this is scenario then 
- First tell me which system would tell you whether SAM is long-Range or Short-Range , and how would a Rafale pilot decide whether to Fly Low or ......

-What you imply for LR-SAM tactic is to fly as low as possible to hide below horizon of LR tracking radar , 
tell me does this also imply that SR-Tracking radar horizon (which I guess will be -xyz feet below LR radar) will also miss Rafale like Non stealthy Jet ???


AASM has range of 15Kms in low altitude launch which is within Short-Range and Medium-range Sam , 
50 Kms in high altitude range which is within long-range Sam .
In any case you go within target range of SAM .

In comparison HARM has range in excess of 100Kms , plus Kh-58UsHE on Su30 has range in excess of 200Kms
I guess ARMs are the ones having better chances to survive 

Now to the weapons itself - 
After overcoming all this , when you prepare to launch your weapon 
Options are either AASM or Paveway 

For AASM , guidance is purely on GPS/Inertial 
First you depend on accurate GPS availability in the area . Subject to US nod etc
Second GPS guidance has its own limitations+Vulnerabilities to Jamming 



> The biggest single natural source of error is *unmodelled ionospheric signal delay*, the model broadcast by the satellites can only compensate for about one half of the possible error, with the resulting error being up to 10 metres. In addition, another effect comes into play, *Geometrical Dilution Of Precision (GDOP)*. Where the angles to the satellites in view are very similar, GDOP will result in inaccuracy in solving the coordinate equation, which will further degrade the solution. Because all of these sources of error will fluctuate in time, users may experience substantially better accuracy at some times, and worse accuracy at other times, depending on the geometry of the satellites in view and ionospheric conditions (the latter a Jindalee problem as well).
> *In the military context*, this vulnerability is a major concern and has produced some heated debate in the US trade press. Even low powered jammers radiating pseudo-noise signals against the GPS carriers could cause typical receivers to either break lock, or fail to acquire satellites from distances of tens of miles. A one Watt transmitter (comparable to a mobile phone) at a distance of 60 km (32 NMI) can in theory prevent a common GPS receiver from acquiring the C/A code. Military receivers locked on to the encrypted P(Y) code are more resilient, and cca 100 W of jam power at 20 km (10.7 NMI) is required to break lock. Significantly, a jammer radiating hundreds of Watts can foil satellite C/A code acquisition at ranges of several hundred nautical miles. The Saddams of this world could potentially disrupt attacks by weapons using many current generation receivers by hoisting such jammers to several thousand feet altitude on devices as simple as tethered balloons



Compare AASM to HARM88E/JDAM , 
One - costly 

Two - numbers in inventory barely three figures + no export also while HARM has ample stock and in addition exported to others in good numbers . Italy got significant package of 250 lately .

Three - CEP of AASM is 30-40 feet /10 meters 
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/Frances-AASM-Precision-Guided-Bombs-06200/
While CEP of HARM without GPS is 3-4 meters even if radar shuts down with help of ARH+DAMASK seeker+mWW seeker . Add GPS to it and even better CEP .

Now to second series of weapons namely the Paveway series smart weapons
As your article itself mentions 


> "The inconvenient is that in this case, the shooting rely on an external designation system.


Who will keep designating the threat for targeting .
HARM gives you Launch and Leave option 
IMO HARM dosen't have these disadvantages or does it . 




> How can you really believe that an EF for example, where the parters will decide only by july 20th about the new AESA radar development and doesn't have a minimum of A2G weapons integrated to make it a multi role fighter, is on par with fully a developed fighter like F18SH for example? Any fighters has advantages and disadvantages, the difference is some have more than other once and also in different fields, but most of them are clearly not on par with ich other.



What a competing company is offering to India , is way different to what is in active production .
For that matter 
Rafale still has to get HMS ( must for any modern jet )
Uprated engine 
AESA for rafale is not in current production .

If you look - the only aircraft that is in production with same specs as offered with MRCA - only F18 fulfills that .
All others are still immature - 
F16 has no prototype of f16IN Block70 super Viper , what we have seen up till now is just Block60 Falcons
All non-US jets lack Production line AESA .
Rafale lacks HMS and till METEOR enters service ( India will get even more late than Europe) rafale will lack in BVR , bcoz no other BVRAM integration has been done . Atleast Eurofighter + Gripen user have other alternative .
Eurofighter apart from radar also fall behind in A2G capability . 
GripenNG has just completed full trials but is far from being in active production 
UAC corp has still not shown Mig35 with 11 Hardpoints and enlarged airframe .

Will it matter - If all companies comply with delivery of final specs Jet within 36 months of contract signing . 
Contract signing I assume will not happen before Mid-late 2011, may be 2012
Point to remember 
When we picked up MKI/Mig29K , not even a single prototype was built . BARS and TVC were in testing phases 
Fact that the - Technical trials as well as Field trials response from SAAB,EADS,Boeing & Russian Ambassador were optimistic . Its safe to assume each Jet has met or surpassed the requirements asked by IAF to demonstrate .


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## KEETARP

Double-post


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## lhuang

Can you guys make your posts more umm, concise? 

It's like uni all over again 

*runs away before I get mobbed*


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## KEETARP

lhuang said:


> Can you guys make your posts more umm, concise?
> 
> It's like uni all over again
> 
> *runs away before I get mobbed*



I deleted my whole post , the one before your comment . 
Check the reason for editing .
See how much we care for others .


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## SpArK

MMCRA contenders&#8217; list likely to take a month​

Posted: Saturday, Jul 10, 2010 

New Delhi: Despite speculations on contenders for the $ 11 billion Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) deal, it could be atleast four more weeks before such a list is finalised.

The technical team of the Indian Air Force (IAF) is still in the process of finalising the trials reports, sources in the ministry of defence told FE.

&#8220;Technical evaluation report of the field trials, during which the six foreign contenders in the race were tested by IAF pilots both in India and abroad under different weather conditions.&#8221;

&#8220;We still have a long way to go before short listing the fighters that have done well in the trials. There was actually no set date for the trial results to be out. Its all speculations and it will take IAF several weeks for submitting the exhaustive report,&#8221; said a source.

Recent changes in India&#8217;s requirements are changing the relative rankings of the contenders. Geopolitical considerations will also have a crucial role to play, as most of these choices have the potential to improve relations with an important potential ally.

*In what started as a lightweight fighter competition to replace India&#8217;s shrinking MiG-21 interceptor fleet has now divided into two categories*. The multi-billion dollar fighter deal is a contest between the American F/A-18 &#8216;Super Hornet&#8217; (Boeing) and F-16 &#8216;Falcon&#8217; (Lockheed Martin), Swedish Gripen (Saab), French Rafale (Dassault), Russian MiG-35 (United Aircraft Corporation) and Eurofighter Typhoon (consortium of British, German, Spanish and Italian companies), *India is likely to extend its competition for a year, because competitor flight trials could not be completed in May as planned and then two years after accepting price quotes the bids expired and the MoD asked manufacturers to submit offers for an additional year.*

*Flight trials were carried out at 3 key locations: near Leh, high in the Himalayas; a desert base in Rajasthan; and Bangalore&#8217;s tropical climate*.

*Lockheed Martin (F-16 Block 60+) and Boeing (F/A-18 E/F Super Hornet) have said that they have modified their bids, Sweden&#8217;s Saab (JAS-39NG) extended its bid unchanged, and Dassault (Rafale), EADS (Eurofighter), and RAC-MiG (MiG-35) have made no public commitment one way or another. While the one year delay could raise costs, it would however, give the contenders more time to deepen Indian partnerships the ability to revise that information in their offer.
*


MMCRA contenders&#8217; list likely to take a month


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## sunakaffck

oh god,you got to be kidding me.


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## sancho

LT.PRATEEK said:


> Let's see
> -This NG-DDM having 2 IR imaging sensor are *part of MAWS* ???? right
> -Program of DDM-NG started in 2007 and has gone *just one* set of trials.?? This will become certified for operation *only* in 2012 not before , ??
> -*It lacks DIRCM* and there are no plans in France as yet to fit Rafale with ability to cue a directed infrared countermeasures system, giving electronic warfare subsystem . . correct ??



France has ordered 60 Rafale F3 for induction in 2012 including AESA and DDM NG, that's why obviously that has to be the first date when DDM NG will be operational and not before. As the sources said:


> Among the key features the new sensor is to provide...the ability to cue a *directed infrared countermeasures* system





> High angular accuracy compliant *with DIRCM needs*



So I don't it doesn't lack the feature, if at all, France won't buy!



LT.PRATEEK said:


> Now when you say NG-DDM(Part of MAWS) giving you IR imaging while Eurofighter lacking it
> 
> *You should have also checked about PIMAWS on Eurofighter*



I posted the same part before to show you that this tech will only be available in future upgrades and the part that you missed to quote even says it:



> Two possible upgrades to the MAW system have been discussed as part of on-going DASS improvements for inclusion on either Tranche-2 *or more likely Tranche-3*. The first of these is a UV based system. These were discounted for the initial install of DASS because GEC-Marconi thought the technology immature at the time. A UV system detects the characteristic emmisions from the missile plume. The advantage is it can be highly discriminating against counter measures. However since it is reliant on detecting the plume of the missiles engine its primarily useful only during the burn phase.
> The second and more likely potential replacement, announced by Germany's Bodenseewerk Geratechnik (BGT) in June 2001,* is termed PIMAWS, or Passive Infra-red Missile Approach Warning System*...



So I was right that the EF lacks this capability yet, it was never integrated, because of cost issues. EJ 200 TVC was developed even a decade ago and is also not integrated and possibly will not, because of cost issues again (probably only if India pays for it through MMRCA, or engine for LCA).
Even for T3 it is doubtful, because AESA, Meteor and possibly any A2G missiles are more important, while DDM NG as stated above, is funded and ordered for the new F3 Rafales, which makes it available for us too.



LT.PRATEEK said:


> For last time
> I think discussion started with claims that Eurofighter dosen't have 360 Passive detection and only Rafale has one such thing



And as I said all the time, similar to EO DAS in terms of enhanced SA, weapons cueing...and the EF doesn't have similar capabilities yet!
What it has, if all additional features will be ordered, is 360° detection of threats to engage them with countermesures, but not to be used in passive, offensive ways as Spectra and EO DAS can. 



LT.PRATEEK said:


> Dassault claim that Rafale have 360 SA bcoz of comprehensive Sensor fusion between FSO - I posted a pic about sensor fusion back.


No, they claim 360° SA because they have several sensors that provides this coverage fully integrated in Spectra alone and can gather it in passive modes:

- 3 digital RWR antennas with each 120° azimuth coverage
- Active ECM system with DRFM and AESA antennas *in the canard rootsand in the tail pod at the base of the fin* , with offensive, defensive and stealthy jamming modes. Pencil thin jamming beams are directed towards threat emitters
- DDM (Détecteur infrarouge de Départ de Missiles) missile approach warning system based on dual-band midwave IR sensors which are located on each side of the SPECTRA fin tip pod, *providing 360° atimuth coverage*
- 3 DAL (Detecteur dAlerte Laser) laser warning receivers *with sensors on the fuselage sides and the rear of the SPECTRA fin tip pod*

So 4 different sensor types in Spetra alone provides full 360° coverage, RBE 2 radar, FSO, or the MICA IR seekers will add the SA only that is already provided by Spectra.



LT.PRATEEK said:


> If this is scenario then...



These are statements are of the AASM programme responsable at Sagem, not mine so I can't tell you how exactly the will do it, I just showed you how they will do SEAD missions without ARMs. The fact is, they seems to think this is, that the combination of passive detection and targeting with Spectra + destroying of the targets with PGMs is more effecient than firing missiles only, because even if upgraded HARMs can use GPS guidance, or are better against countermesures, they will be fired preemptive, if the radar is turned off and not located yet, which means the use of serveral missiles will be needed to take out one target. And with the detection range of radars in over 200Km range, Spectra will give Rafale pretty much time to engange them. 




LT.PRATEEK said:


> In comparison HARM has range in excess of 100Kms , plus Kh-58UsHE on Su30 has range in excess of 200Kms
> I guess ARMs are the ones having better chances to survive



As I said all the time it's a different strategy! If you have a big fighter like the MKI which will be detected in distances, of course long range ARMs are the better choice for survivebility. But Rafale offers the exact opposite, it is hard to detect, offers excellent detection, idenfication and jamming features, so can get closer to the target and strike it more effective with PGMs. So it depends on the capabilities of the fighter, or weapons which strategy is better and Rafale has proved itself in this role. Also as I said before, the 125 Kg AASM was tested with ranges up to 100Km too, so strikes from distances are possible too and be honest, wouldn't it be better for IAF to have fighters that offers different capabilities in this role, than the same? 
Btw, neither Gripen NG, nor the EF has integrated an ARM yet! 




LT.PRATEEK said:


> For AASM , guidance is purely on GPS/Inertial...
> ...While CEP of HARM without GPS is 3-4 meters even if radar shuts down with help of ARH+DAMASK seeker+mWW seeker . Add GPS to it and even better CEP .



Wrong, AASM has also an IR seeker with a CEP of 1m and is in the development of an laser seeker at the moment too.



LT.PRATEEK said:


> Who will keep designating the threat for targeting .
> HARM gives you Launch and Leave option
> IMO HARM dosen't have these disadvantages or does it .



As stated before, Spectra will guide AASM.




LT.PRATEEK said:


> What a competing company is offering to India , is way different to what is in active production.



It don't has to be in production now, it has to be ready and mature by the time when the first MMRCA squads should be delivered and the only fighters that can offer this by now are the US fighters and Rafale! That shows the difference each fighter has, or will have, so they obviously can't be on par. EF starts the real development of T3A only by this year and it is more than doubtful that anything will be ready, or even mature by 2014 when we need the first squad, so although those techs might be good around 2015/16, can we risk such delays in an replacement that is already delayed? You can't compare that to MKI, or Mig 29K, because that are different cases, especially the Mig 29K where no alternatives was available and it was a combined deal anyway.
The fact is our squad numbers are shrinkin, so fast integration and induction of the fighters should be an important requirement, which clearly speaks not in favour of EF, nor Mig 35 and even puts some ??? behind Gripen NG. 
As I told you before, any fighter has pros and cons and I hope the one with the most pros wins and not the one with political benefits only.


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## sancho

@ LT. Prateek

This is an excerpt of an report about the S. Korean competition that I found, which should be interesting too:



> "Dassault's combat aircraft Rafale was rated as "excellent" in all five categories, while its strongest rival, Boeing's F-15 fighter, reached the standard in only two categories.
> 
> The Boeing fighter received "excellent" in reliability and supportive combat capability, while Eurofighter, produced by a European consortium, won the top grades in the general function and reliability categories.
> 
> *In the categories of weapons and electronic warfare capability, only Rafale earned the "excellent" grade*, according to the officials.
> 
> Russia's Su-35 took fourth place with "ordinary" rates in all five categories.




Not about Spectra but gnerally, from the competition in the Netherlands:







As you can see, technically the Rafale can take on the top US fighters, especially with it's weapons and the Spectra EWS. On the radar, or IRST site, I would rate EFs Captor and Pirate higher, but with upgraded MKI we will even have better than that, so again, we need capabilities that we don't have to supplement the fleet!


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## dbc

sancho said:


> "Dassault's combat aircraft Rafale was rated as "excellent" in all five categories, while its strongest rival, Boeing's F-15 fighter, reached the standard in only two categories.
> 
> The Boeing fighter received "excellent" in reliability and supportive combat capability, while Eurofighter, produced by a European consortium, won the top grades in the general function and reliability categories.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you able to provide a source for the above? Why are you cherry picking from blogs and other unreliable sources? Who won the Korean competition?Here I fully expect you to echo Yves Robins's sentiments to justify Rafale's loss.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sancho said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not about Spectra but gnerally, from the competition in the Netherlands:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A surprising and important detail had been made public: the technological and operational evaluation by the RNAF of the three candidates. According to the RNAF criteria, the *JSF had been graded 6.97; the Rafale, 6.95*; and the Eurofighter Typhoon, 5.85
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> As for the Dutch evaluation - can you please elaborate? Tell the readers how the assessment was conducted by the Dutch? Did the Dutch request Dassault or EAD participation? Were planes made available to the Dutch, was confidential performance data provided by the vendor for the assessment? As a matter of fact the Dutch evaluation was carried out *without Vendor participation*.
> I am pretty sure you knew this but decided to deliberately deceive in order to bolster your case for the Rafale.
Click to expand...

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## sancho

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Are you able to provide a source for the above? Why are you cherry picking from blogs and other unreliable sources? Who won the Korean competition?Here I fully expect you to echo Yves Robins's sentiments to justify Rafale's loss.
> 
> As for the Dutch evaluation - can you please elaborate? Tell the readers how the assessment was conducted by the Dutch? Did the Dutch request Dassault or EAD participation? Were planes made available to the Dutch, was confidential performance data provided by the vendor for the assessment? As a matter of fact the Dutch evaluation was carried out *without Vendor participation*.
> I am pretty sure you knew this but decided to deliberately deceive in order to bolster your case for the Rafale.



I am trying to get infos about older competitions and am going through several threads in different forums, most of the older links doesn't work anymore, but here someone posted several reports at once (quiet interesting!):

Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums - View Single Post - Rafale News IX

Btw, I think we don't have to discuss about that such competitions won't be decided by the best fighter right? It's often about political advantages and that's the reason why the F15s won in S. Korea, or Singapore. Which possibly is the main reason why Rafale will win in Brazil and why the F18SH has good chances to win the MMRCA.


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## KEETARP

> So I don't it doesn't lack the feature, if at all, France won't buy!



Yes , it does lack . 
There is no plan to integrate DIRCM on F3 for AdA . 
Eurofighter and F18 have this thing already .
If at all Thales makes it available to India so is the case with PIMAWS ( if anything Euro partners won't buy PIMAWS , Germany + India can )
By the way do you know how good UV sensing is , in comparison to IR imaging ??



> And as I said all the time, similar to EO DAS in terms of enhanced SA, weapons cueing...and the EF doesn't have similar capabilities yet!
> What it has, if all additional features will be ordered, is 360° detection of threats to engage them with countermesures, *but not to be used in passive*, offensive ways as Spectra and EO DAS can.



You again claim no passive detection . 
Why "*no passive detection*" care to explain .

To add , Its wrong to say Eurofighter can't cue weapons with its passive sensors , have you seen ASRAAM firing with only use of PIRATE .
The infrarotgestützte target search and target tracking allows the "Typhoon", air targets, passive (ie without its own radiation to detect) to monitor, record and identify at least the use of infrared-air-air missiles, making it possible.
The above line is in German ,not well translated but you can make out use of infrared missile . 
If you want Austrian Gov website link for above claim . I will happily post it .



> No, they claim 360° SA because they have several sensors that provides this coverage fully integrated in Spectra alone and can gather it in passive modes:
> 
> - 3 digital RWR antennas with each 120° azimuth coverage



So does Eurofighter , F18 , F15 , F35 , Mig 35 , etc .............
Radar Warning Receiver (RWR) 
The DASS is equipped with Radar Warning Receivers (RWRs) designed to detect such emissions. *The particular units used are Super Heterodyne (SuperHet) based wide-band receivers and are located in the port side pod (both front and rear) and within the aircraft's fuselage giving full 360° coverage in azimuth (elevation coverage is currently unknown). *

These units are combined with on-board processing systems enabling not only a bearing to be determined but also the likely type of radar (and thus the platform it is deployed on). This is achieved using a stored database of radar signatures forming part of the ESM, Electronic Support Measures suite. Through the use of high speed digital signal processing the ESM will attempt to map the detected emission to its database. One of the weaknesses of current (and more so older) RWR systems is a difficulty in countering *Low Probability of Intercept (LPI) enabled emissions*. These use various techniques to try and hide the emitted signal. Although it is unclear whether the DASS RWRs possess a capability to detect and classify such emissions it is known the Marconi (now BAE Systems) have been working hard in this area for some time. 

And we think only SPECTRA have Active cancellation stealthy rumor against LPI. 

Just for curiosity , do you know difference between Super-Heterodyne based system and digital logarithmic transfer(Digital crystal video receiver) of RWR , 



> - Active ECM system with DRFM and AESA antennas in the canard rootsand in the tail pod at the base of the fin , with offensive, defensive and stealthy jamming modes. Pencil thin jamming beams are directed towards threat emitters



So does all others , and US-F18 unmatched
The "Typhoon" has a highly selective jammer, which covers a range of *360 degrees*,* but only sends its signals in the direction of interfering radar source*. This reduces their detectability. The disadvantage of ECM systems is, in part, that noise signals are peilbar. *Many older jammer interference signals sent in all directions and could thus interfere with a large number of speed cameras*.

*In addition TRD which Rafale lacks* 

The radar decoy towing
A so-called radar towed decoy (Towed Radar Decoy - TRD) is a jammer on a retractable leash. The advantage is that the interference is not directly from the air, but at some distance, to be broadcast by the station on a leash attached. The enemy radar is therefore - despite the very efficient fault - only on the jammers themselves, not direct attention to the aircraft.
These radar trailing bait only to the UK and German machines will be equipped. The British received the machines developed by BAe Systems T-bait "Ariel" is which attached to a 100 meter long rope made of Kevlar. For the German machinery of the trailing bait "Sky Buzzer" by EADS / DASA is provided.
The selective disruption may generally takes only a limited number of speed cameras to be disturbed, for it reduces the probability of being discovered. In addition, the Selektivstörung against individual radar systems usually more efficient (higher field strength of the interference signal due to the directional effect). *The ECM of the "Typhoon" is activated automatically, and interferes with the radar systems that represent the greatest threat to each of the aircraft*.



> - DDM (Détecteur infrarouge de Départ de Missiles) missile approach warning system based on dual-band midwave IR sensors which are located on each side of the SPECTRA fin tip pod, providing 360° atimuth coverage



PIMAWS 360 degree , three sensors instead of two . 
India can have option of IR imaging or UV imaging . Ask me UV anytime .
Currently all Typhoons have - 

DASS incorporates three Missile Approach Warners (MAW), one each in the port and starboard wing roots (near the cockpit) and one in the rear fuselage (near the tail). The units are derived from the Plessey PVS2000 MAW which utilises an active, pulse-doppler radar for detection. Since the units are active they are able to detect not only radar guided ordnance but also passive weapons such as infra red guided short range missiles. To increase the effectiveness of the system the MAW is also directly linked to the flare launchers allowing an instantaneous response to a local launch.

*Two possible upgrades *to the MAW system have been discussed as part of on-going DASS improvements for inclusion on either Tranche-2 or more likely Tranche-3. The first of these is a UV based system. These were discounted for the initial install of DASS because GEC-Marconi thought the technology immature at the time. A UV system detects the characteristic emmisions from the missile plume. The advantage is it can be highly discriminating against counter measures. However since it is reliant on detecting the plume of the missiles engine its primarily useful only during the burn phase



> - 3 DAL (Detecteur dAlerte Laser) laser warning receivers with sensors on the fuselage sides and the rear of the SPECTRA fin tip pod



To counter such threats the RAF Typhoon's will be equipped with a Laser Warning Receiver, LWR. Mounted below the nose the units will be capable of detecting any incoming laser radiation and determine its bearing.



> So 4 different sensor types in Spetra alone provides full 360° coverage, RBE 2 radar, FSO, or the MICA IR seekers will add the SA only that is already provided by Spectra.



DASS + Pretorian + PIMAWS/mWW-MAWS alone provide full 360 coverage as well as countermeasures .

OSF - no FPA , range is 90 Km i guess . PIRATE - CCD FPA , Range is 150 Kms 

RBE2 - Yes , but wait for 2 Years and Eurofighter will get much better AESA . Probably only one that can come close to APG-79 



> The fact is, they seems to think this is, that the combination of passive detection and targeting with Spectra + destroying of the targets with PGMs is more effecient than firing missiles only, because even if upgraded HARMs can use GPS guidance, or are better against countermesures, they will be fired preemptive, if the radar is turned off and not located yet, which means the use of serveral missiles will be needed to take out one target. And with the detection range of radars in over 200Km range, Spectra will give Rafale pretty much time to engange them.



But India , US , Russia , China think otherwise 
Not , preemptive . 
Missile is fired only when Threat is detected and ROE is met in co-ordination with other strike formation .
No , not several missile have to be fired . Even if Radar is turned off same missile will use micro wave terminal to home on to target . 
And DAMASK seeker on same missile , you know ...................... . ??????
That's why US rules .
And 200 kms for spectra , dosen't matter France has no weapon with 200KM range for Rafale with/without AR seeker . 



> Btw, neither Gripen NG, nor the EF has integrated an ARM yet!


Never claimed 
Rafale is best strike mission aircraft in blogs so let's analyse its weakness with F18 . 



> As I said all the time it's a different strategy! If you have a big fighter like the MKI which will be detected in distances, of course long range ARMs are the better choice for survivebility. But Rafale offers the exact opposite, it is hard to detect, offers excellent detection, idenfication and jamming features, so can get closer to the target and strike it more effective with PGMs. So it depends on the capabilities of the fighter, or weapons which strategy is better and Rafale has proved itself in this role. Also as I said before, the 125 Kg AASM was tested with ranges up to 100Km too, so strikes from distances are possible too and be honest, wouldn't it be better for IAF to have fighters that offers different capabilities in this role, than the same?



Low RCS is a very weak statement , considering Rafale is not designed as VLO . 
Fully armed Rafale and Fully armed Su30 have the same fate . Even if claims of Rafale having RCS btw 0.5 to 1 and su30 having RCS of 10-12 are true . 
When you attach fuel tanks and missiles on 10 stations . 
Rafale RCS will go up by 3-4 times(0.5 to 2) , while sukhoi30 will have only 10-20% percent increase (from 10 to 11.5 to 12). Get my point and every Radar on this earth can pick up Fighters with these figures at quite safe/good distances . 

And personally , su30 RCS is just speculation on basis of untreated su27 . 
Only calculation possible is for su-27 by the figures given by NIIP chief during Farnborough 2002 airshow for detection ranges of mig21 and su27 by BARS . If you calculate those figures , su27 comes to have RCS of 2.5-3 times of Mig21 . 



> be honest, wouldn't it be better for IAF to have fighters that offers different capabilities in this role, than the same?



Why Rafale only , 
Gripen is much more different to Su30 than Rafale .
Much more smaller , even though RCS consideration is moot imo . Gripen has better RCS figure than Rafale (RCS with external carriage looks stupid & dumb but that's fact with Gripen ) . 
With all those new generation MAWS,LWS,RWR,Decoy,CMDS countermeasures on Gripen NG blended into the airframe . It can perform same mission with Precision stand-of weapons . At half the price of danger of loosing plane with less maintenance/manpower in every mission . 




> Also as I said before, the 125 Kg AASM
> ASM has also an IR seeker with a CEP of 1m



Would like to see those missile figures , links plz . Are they in active service ????
HARM-E , KH-58UshE for su30 are in active service . 



> As stated before, Spectra will guide AASM



If , that is the case . What about " Launch and Leave / Fire and Forge****"



> It don't has to be in production now, it has to be ready and mature by the time when the first MMRCA squads should be delivered



Any statements by Air-Force to back-up those claims . If Eurofighter consortium GmBH is ready to spend 100s of millions in trials ,weapons firing ,Aero-India expenses , offsets with local industries in Bangalore . They better have a reason of being confident enough to deliver Jets according to IAF demands . 
I don't see any problems with any of the MRCA jets , esp with the way MKI were bought .

For the argument 
No 90KN engine on Rafale 
No HMS . 
No METEOR 
I say Rafale is immature in comparison to Hornet + Mig35 , and I dont see much coming until UAE funds them , and not before 2013 esp Meteor . While all other have capable BVR 
Gripen+Eurofighter+F16+F18 .................... Best BVR in business 
Mig35 .............. R77 
Rafale ................. Sorry , but no alternative to MICA (max kill rate at less than 50Kms) . 



> The fact is our squad numbers are shrinkin, so fast integration and induction of the fighters should be an important requirement, which clearly speaks not in favour of EF, nor Mig 35 and even puts some ??? behind Gripen NG.


SQ nos shrinkin , yes agreed . 
But , are we in that bad shape to have AESA/SPECTRA/METEOR urgent all in 2012 . 
Get the jet that meets the req , every subsequent addition will keep coming .
I don't see either PAF or PLAAF having these tech now or for coming 3-4 years . By that time all MRCA jets will have everything .

In that case if we buy Rafale with MICA against su30MK+R77 of China , F16 with AIM120c5+ JF17 with PL12 codename SD10 ---- what say .
Better to have Mig35 in that place and with ARM-KH58 as well .

To tell you about mature jet wrt latest tech , I had same question about Naval Mig29K "Why not have zhuk-aesa+all goodies for new batch" . 
Answer I got was - "You think Mig29 with ME is inferior to anything our adversary are flying . Rest is all up to you " 



> As I told you before, any fighter has pros and cons and I hope the one with the most pros wins and not the one with political benefits only.



Me too , so does everyone .

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Marxist

*Saab website for the 'Gripen for India'*


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## Marxist

New Delhi: Even as six contenders for the $11 billion 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCAs) await verdict on the recently-concluded trials, the US administration has sought a bigger share for hi-tech American products in a bid to boost bilateral defence, commercial and trade relations with India.

In a meeting with minister of commerce and industry Anand Sharma on the sidelines of the Indo-US CEO Forum, US commerce secretary Gary Locke urged India to favourably consider the bids by Boeing and Lockheed, two contenders for the Indian Air Forces MMRCA deal.

The Indian governments aircraft deal is very important to the US with vital implications for our bilateral defence, commercial and trade relations, the US commerce department said. To further expand its footprints in India, defence major Boeing Company last week announced an agreement to acquire Narus Networks, a provider of real-time network traffic and analytics software based in California. Narus also has a strong presence in Bangalore.

This acquisition is another step forward in our strategy to develop integrated solutions for better network visibility, threat detection, and cybersecurity, said Roger Krone, president of Boeing Network & Space Systems.

Narus India team and its unique capabilities to secure complex networks will be a significant benefit to Boeing and our customers, he said. In addition to supporting cyber activities within Boeing Network & Space Systems, Narus network-centric technology also will be applied to Boeings smart grid energy work, the secure networking of the aircraft makers ground, air and space products and the defence of its network.

US hopes to clinch $11-bn aircraft deal


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## sancho

LT.PRATEEK said:


> Yes , it does lack... .
> There is no plan to integrate DIRCM on F3 for AdA .
> Eurofighter and F18 have this thing already .
> If at all Thales makes it available to India so is the case with PIMAWS ( if anything Euro partners won't buy PIMAWS , Germany + India can )



Please try to understand the difference!
DDM NG will be integrated with DIRCM capabilities till 2012 (according to official MBDA site and only AW blog states that AdA Rafales won't have that feature), while PIMAWS could be developed, but never was integrated into EF T2s and so far it is not known what T3A, or the later B will include. So DDM NG with all features will be available for India for sure, while it is still unclear what exaclty is on offer from EF T3 for India.
It doesn't make sense to argue with possible future capabilities, if it's not even clear if, or when they will be integrated, or available for us. Do you see me arguing with active stealth for Rafale, because the development was funded by French gov now, or ASMP which was integrated into Rafale now, but will not be available for India?



LT.PRATEEK said:


> To add , Its wrong to say Eurofighter can't cue weapons with its passive sensors , have you seen ASRAAM firing with only use of PIRATE .



PIRATE is the IRST of EF, but we are talking about the EW suits and *that's what I said!* EF can't cue weapons on targets with its EWS like Rafale! An I told you several times now, that this and the enhanced SA in full spherical range that Spectra can provide in passive modes, not only the countermesures.




LT.PRATEEK said:


> In addition TRD which Rafale lacks...



TD is a missile (SAM) countermesure and addition to protect the fighter from such threats by jamming its radar, or giving the missile another target. 
So important against ground threats mainly in SEAD, or other strike missions and exactly here SPECTRA proofed itself several times to be excellent!



> Operating in a dense, hostile environment, the aircrafts systems provided pilots with a clear, precise view of the tactical situation. The multi-sensor data fusion system (RBE2 radar, Front Sector Optronic: FSO, SPECTRA self-defense suite, Link 16 data link) worked perfectly. Thanks to this system, *the Rafale largely proved its self-defense capabilities. It experienced no losses due to air defense systems, and was often able to eliminate these threats.*





> The efficiency of Spectra notably was demonstrated in 2008 at the Red Flag exercise at Nellis Air Force Base, Nevada, where *during all sorties the Rafale escaped SAM missile threats. This followed a successful demonstration at the NATO MACE electronic warfare campaign in Europe.*
> 
> *The angular localization performance of Spectra makes it possible to precisely discover ground threats and to target them for immediate destruction with precision-guided munitions. In this totally passive mode, Spectra is also used as a general awareness and intelligence reporting system.*






LT.PRATEEK said:


> Fully armed Rafale and Fully armed Su30 have the same fate . Even if claims of Rafale having RCS btw 0.5 to 1 and su30 having RCS of 10-12 are true .
> When you attach fuel tanks and missiles on 10 stations .
> Rafale RCS will go up by 3-4 times(0.5 to 2) , while sukhoi30 will have only 10-20% percent increase (from 10 to 11.5 to 12). Get my point and every Radar on this earth can pick up Fighters with these figures at quite safe/good distances .



How can a fully loaded Rafale, with your figures (RCS of 2m2) can have the same fate as MKI with similar load (12m2)? Even an actual JF17 with KJ 7 radar would detect the MKI way before it could be close to any target, let alone the Erieye AWACS.
That exactly is the problem of IAF, AWACS available for PLAAF and PAF now!
One on one there are hardly fighters in PAF that can take on the MKI, but with AWACS support, things will be pretty different now. Sending an MKI for strikes will be more than difficult and dangerous and the only other IAF fighter that could be used in such role would be the upgraded M2K (we have only 50 of them). 




LT.PRATEEK said:


> Why Rafale only ,
> Gripen is much more different to Su30 than Rafale .
> Much more smaller , even though RCS consideration is moot imo . Gripen has better RCS figure than Rafale (RCS with external carriage looks stupid & dumb but that's fact with Gripen ) .
> With all those new generation MAWS,LWS,RWR,Decoy,CMDS countermeasures on Gripen NG blended into the airframe . It can perform same mission with Precision stand-of weapons . At half the price of danger of loosing plane with less maintenance/manpower in every mission .



I said different capabilities, not different size than MKI. The technical evaluation in Brazil found out that Rafale has a lower RCS than Gripen NG and F18SH, also that Gripen is only in development and its real capabilities in are not clear now.
Also I never said Rafale only, but in A2G Gripen doesn't offer the range, nor the payload, that a Rafale, or F18SH can offer and even against the F16IN, it would hardly be on par. Gripen NG is meant mainly for air defense roles and secondary A2G roles, especially with heavy loads it will have less range compared to the others.

- Gripen NG can carry 2 stand off /cruise missiles, or heavy PGMs and 2 additional (1700l) fuel tanks 
- F16IN can carry 2 missiles, or heavy PGMs + 3 (1400l) fuel tanks and 2 CFTs
- Rafale can carry 2 missiles, or heavy PGMs and 3 (2000l fuel tanks), 2 CFTs are possible too
- F18SH can carry 2 missiles, or heavy PGMs and 3 (1800l) fuel tanks

Not to mention that Rafale and F18SH have have also more internal fuel than the Gripen. 




LT.PRATEEK said:


> Would like to see those missile figures , links plz . Are they in active service ????
> HARM-E , KH-58UshE for su30 are in active service .



Not missiles, AASM PGM!



> AASM weapons will be available in different versions with the bomb's accuracy ranging from more than one to more than 10 meters. This new weapon will be released from safe standoff ranges of about 15 km released from low altitude to up to 50 km released from high altitude. The hybrid guidance system is based in a combination of GPS (Global Positioning System) and solid-state gyro Inertial Measurement Unit (IMU) with night/day *IR imaging terminal guidance being provided only for the high accuracy 1-meter Circular Error Probable (CEP) version.*



AASM 1


Here is a post about AASM and its capabilities from the key forum:



> This main asset of the AASM for CAS kit a ccording to pilot reports is that its booster enables it to manage "exotic" trajectories for a bomb that size (90° degree of the axis firing) reducing time engagement considerably. Also its high angle of impact reduces the probability friendly casualties.
> 
> In a more "symetric" warfare the abilty to shoot 6 AASM in one pass at standoff ranges up to 100km with the 125 kg version brings a tremendous firepower while improving the survivability considerably. It can be fired even at low altitude with a 15km range for the 250kg body.
> 
> Last but not least it can engage SAM sites when coupled to the spectra.
> 
> The AASM is truely a game changing AtG munition.






LT.PRATEEK said:


> For the argument
> No 90KN engine on Rafale
> No HMS .
> No METEOR



Engine upgrade to M88E4 is going and don't forget that it already has one of the best T/W ratios of all contenders, 90kN M88, or Kaveri-Snecma would just make it better, as it already is.
METEOR is in development and France is one of the first to get it, especially when UAE take Rafale.



LT.PRATEEK said:


> I say Rafale is immature in comparison to Hornet + Mig35 , and I dont see much coming until UAE funds them , and not before 2013 esp Meteor . While all other have capable BVR



True for F18SH, but how can Mig 35 be mature, if only some prototypes are available and the production is already delayed (starting around 2013 only!)? 



LT.PRATEEK said:


> Answer I got was - "You think Mig29 with ME is inferior to anything our adversary are flying . Rest is all up to you "



Please don't tell me you believed that! China has the J -15 now, a Flanker class fighter and they already developing AESA radars. If PLAN comes out with a carrier and such a fighter, do you really believe Zhuk ME will be superior?
As far as I found out, Zhuk AE is still under development only and especially in the Air to Sea modes not comparable to the latest ME versions. It simply needs more time till it could be available for Mig 29K and Mig 35!
If it would be available now, why should IN don't take the radar that offers better performance and less maintenance? Or even more important, why should IN want AESA radar on less capable N-LCAs, but, no AESA for Mig 29K?


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## sancho

LT.PRATEEK said:


> Gripen+Eurofighter+F16+F18 .................... Best BVR in business
> Mig35 .............. R77
> Rafale ................. Sorry , but no alternative to MICA (max kill rate at less than 50Kms)...



I wanted to reply to this separately, because there is a mistake in your theory! You compare the missile range and translate it to superior BVR capability of the fighter, which is not correct, because you have to add things like radar range, or RCS of the fighter too. Check this:

*Rafale vs F18SH*


> ...In a recent simulated exercise with the U.S. Navy jets French "downed" six F-18 and lost only two aircraft. The U.S. pilots said *they could only see the Rafale on the radar when it was too late to react.*



ISTOÉ Independente - Economia & Negócios


*Rafale vs EF*


> Lets talk now about the results of this exercise. Your squadron commander speaks of " to have put sheets" to the British participants equipped with Eurofighter with a ratio of 7 victories for 1 defeat, with degraded armament on the side of the Rafale. What is called degraded armament and which were the rules of engagement?
> 
> During an ATLC engagement, 2 Rafale engaged, using their whole system but simulating a weapon that requires taking more risk than normal, 4 Eurofighter. The 2 Rafale killed the 4 Typhoon which used all their normal capacities, without loss.
> *The rules of engagement were "beyond visual range"*.
> 
> (For the experts, the Rafale had then simulated the use of a semi-active missile while the missile normally used by the Rafale is an active missile, which allows to take cover more quickly after a shot.)...
> 
> ...What are the differences between the two weapon systems, whether in terms of sensors and situation awareness for the pilot?
> 
> All have always dreamed of hundreds of Mirage F1 and Mirage 2000 pilots became reality in the Rafale. It is the result of a long common adventure between Dassault and the French Air Force. The Rafale is the culmination of decades of experience in military aviation.
> Finally, the Rafale fighter is a very complete aircraft:
> The rafale is extremely maneuvering and thus awesome in dogfight. For example, confronted with a Eurofighter, engaged in a within visual range combat with a neck to neck start, we know we need a few dozens of seconds to validate a 'gun kill'.
> *In BVR air combat (beyond visual range, ie at ranges of several dozens of kilometers), the Rafale system provides synthetic information coming from multiple sensors. This information is therefore more accurate. We can do without 1 or 2 sensors during a whole combat while remaining extremely dangerous for the enemy.* This gives us access to new tactics of particular interest.



RING - Capitaine Romain, pilote de Rafale en Afghanistan


Two examples where the Rafale, even with BVR missiles that had less range than the AIM 120s and also less radar range, was able to defeat the enemy!
Low RCS, situational awareness, passive detection and cueing capabilities are the biggest advantages of the Rafale and would be excellent additions to IAF and MKIs A2A capabilites.

IAF used the long radar range of Su 30s and data links in combination with the low RCS of the Mig 21 Bisons to counter F15s. Now think about what a great combination a passive Rafale (with FSO, MICA IR seekers and Spectra) and an active upgraded MKI (BARS AESA) would be in A2A, against the numerical superiority of PLAAF?
We will never counter their numbers, but we can counter them with new techs and capabilities that they can't get!

*MKI in A2A with 12 AAMs:*







*Rafale in A2A with 6 AAMs and up to 4 more are possible):*


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## KEETARP

> Please try to understand the difference!
> DDM NG will be integrated with DIRCM capabilities till 2012 (according to official MBDA site and only AW blog states that AdA Rafales won't have that feature), while PIMAWS could be developed, but never was integrated into EF T2s and so far it is not known what T3A, or the later B will include. So DDM NG with all features will be available for India for sure, while it is still unclear what exaclty is on offer from EF T3 for India.
> It doesn't make sense to argue with possible future capabilities, if it's not even clear if, or when they will be integrated, or available for us. Do you see me arguing with active stealth for Rafale, because the development was funded by French gov now, or ASMP which was integrated into Rafale now, but will not be available for India?



First - the active cancellation is dream-land just like Plasma-Stealth 
You know why - ? ? 
check this Gambit's post - http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-forum/53000-what-wrong-rafale-2.html#post778438

and this one - http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/4347-mrca-news-discussions-140.html#post966562

When you yourself don't know whether PIMAWS is on offer to India along with Typhoon or not , 
what is config of Tranche3a .
Who knows German typhoon might be flying with Infrared MAWS .
Why do you claim that only Rafale has 360 passive detection when it is not known whether DMM-NG will be developed by 2012 , or will it have DIRCM

Even your DDM-NG thing will come in future . 

Your argument is wrong .



> So DDM NG with all features will be available for India for sure, while it is still unclear what exaclty is on offer from EF T3 for India.


Even though DDM-NG is not developed it will be on offer for sure , while PIMAWS whose development started a full decade behind DDM-NG will not be . Why ????



> EF can't cue weapons on targets with its EWS like Rafale! An I told you several times now, that this and the enhanced SA in full spherical range that Spectra can provide in passive modes, not only the countermesures.



Who says Eurofighter can't cue weapons by its EWS suite , I can explain it rt here . And even better than SPECTRA bcoz of HMS 
but first you tell me how does SPECTRA achieve this and I will explain it to you . 




> TD is a missile (SAM) countermesure and addition to protect the fighter from such threats by jamming its radar, or giving the missile another target.
> So important against ground threats mainly in SEAD, or other strike missions and exactly here SPECTRA proofed itself several times to be excellent!



Links for that towed decoy on Rafale , Plz ?????
not just claim on Forum 



> How can a fully loaded Rafale, with your figures (RCS of 2m2) can have the same fate as MKI with similar load (12m2)? Even an actual JF17 with KJ 7 radar would detect the MKI way before it could be close to any target, let alone the Erieye AWACS.
> That exactly is the problem of IAF, AWACS available for PLAAF and PAF now!
> One on one there are hardly fighters in PAF that can take on the MKI, but with AWACS support, things will be pretty different now. Sending an MKI for strikes will be more than difficult and dangerous and the only other IAF fighter that could be used in such role would be the upgraded M2K (we have only 50 of them).



Why bring JF17 into all this when we are talking about A2G mission . 
Don't manipulate posts or try to put words into mouth . 
No one is talking of A2A mission , it was SEAD effectiveness with HARM . 
Since you have done - 

And you believe Rafale would be invisible to SAAB-2000 radar / ground based radar . 
If su30 is detected at 300 Km then ,Rafale will be at 150 km by Erieye , both are at equal risk . 
Know why 
one - JF17 pilot already knows both of them well beyond firing range of Sd10
two - For taking out JF17 , Rafale needs to go within 50 Kms of JF17 escaping Erieye
three - Su30 can take out at 100Kms range 
four - As soon as you come within SD10 range of 80kms . Both the aircraft are at equal danger . 



> The technical evaluation in Brazil found out that Rafale has a lower RCS than Gripen NG



Non-sense . Not even worth replying 



> - Rafale can carry 2 missiles, or heavy PGMs and 3 (2000l fuel tanks), 2 CFTs are possible too
> - F18SH can carry 2 missiles, or heavy PGMs and 3 (1800l) fuel tanks
> 
> Not to mention that Rafale and F18SH have have also more internal fuel than the Gripen



Yes , and to add to your cherry-picking 
Internal Fuel on F18 6530 kgs , Internal fuel on Rafale 4500Kgs .
Means no fuel tanks on F18 needed . 
Buy F18 , what is so unique about Rafale in above payload or range , that F18 lacks .



> Here is a post about AASM and its capabilities from the key forum



Manufacturer's don't believe Keypub , below is the link .
Sagem : MARKETS / PRODUCTS*-*Avionics Systems & Navigation*-*Global solutions
We will talk , when French Air-Force orders them like . Till then AASM is future ..........



> Engine upgrade to M88E4 is going on


Tell me when its done , 
Till then just like CAPTOR-AESA , like it or not others are better .



> best T/W ratios of all contenders


I would say Eurofighter+Gripen is better . Justify your claim 



> *True for F18SH*


If true , 
So finally you admit that Rafale is immature in comparison to F18 . I will say buy mature platform rather than wasting on immature .



> Please don't tell me you believed that! China has the J -15 now, a Flanker class fighter and they already developing AESA radars. If PLAN comes out with a carrier and such a fighter, do you really believe Zhuk ME will be superior?



When they develop AESA + first operational carrier with sq of J15 . Then we will discuss . Till then Mig29 is perfect for navy .

I guess few lines back we were discussing how Su30 sucks with high rcs against AWACS coupled JF17 . Same thing applies here . 
Sides have change my friend , now we are in defensive with AWACS , same set of missiles . The one having better maneuverability and better IRST will win . J15 lacks TVC in addition to Mig29K has better IRST ( OLS K and OLS UE ) .




> As far as I found out, Zhuk AE is still under development


But this same stupid Zhuk showed whatever IAF wanted to see in Russia , and fired a 100+ kms range BVR from AESA . Targeted a ground with KAB-500 SE 

*Zhuk-AE AESA radar finished flying tests*( 2 years old news )

Russian news agency 'Interfax' informed yesterday, that NIIR 'Fazotron's Zhuk-AE AESA radar has finished an important stage of its flying tests. According to NIIR's chief designer Yury Gus'kov in these tests *all air-to-air and air-to-ground radar modes were checked*. The testing pilots were very impressed with radar's capability. 'In its last test the radar has disclosed and tracked 3 flying targets on the distance of up to 148 km. *All modes of the radar were tested, including in tail-on engagement and close combat '  said Gus'kov*.





> If it would be available now, why should IN don't take the radar that offers better performance and less maintenance?


*Bcoz , navy dosen't think it needs AESA rt now *, 
I have a link - Let me search for it by NIIR chief himself " We have offered AESA to next batch of mig29 to India"


----------



## KEETARP

> I wanted to reply to this separately, because there is a mistake in your theory! You compare the missile range and translate it to superior BVR capability of the fighter, which is not correct, because you have to add things like radar range, or RCS of the fighter too. Check this:



Yes , lets compare F18 + Mig35 with rafale 

F18+F16 detection range for Rafale(Fully armed rafale) at 120 kms . Coupled with wedgetail AWACS at 150 kms 
Immediate engagement and shot fired with AIM120 ( 100+ )

For rafale - 
One - Don't tell me Rafale has better radar than F18 , 
Two - Even if Rafale detects f18 at range of 160 Kms+ with AWACS , stiil has to wait till it gets within 50kms of F18 to get shot with MICA (only 50kms range for mica ) .
Get my point 



> METEOR is in development and France is one of the first to get it, especially when UAE take Rafale



Wrong , few months back on this same very forum you were telling me " All members involved in this project will get METEOR at the same time " . 

I say if any one earlier , it will be Gripen bcoz it was the first Jet that fired METEOR first and is the Test bed for METEOR currently .

METEOR is future , lets leave it like PIMAWS /Active cancellation ??? Right .

In addition no HMS on Rafale , want to know how it helps in WVR ask any Fighter pilot . 
No matter how good Spectra is or low your RCS is , if you lack HMS you wont have edge in taking the first shot in close range . 

And plz , stop this cross posting from other forums / blogs . Most of them are their personal opinions . Some are baseless claims .
Kindly stop this cherry-picking .
Let's hear your analysis and objectivity 
Even tons of material is present on forums like "What is wrong with Rafale " 
btw you won't be knowing but a formation of Jaguars beat Rafale every single time in WVR fight years back . 



> &#8220;The Jaguar&#8217;s combination of a Helmet Mounted Sighting System (HMSS) with the IDM (Improved Data Modem) data-link provided the aircraft&#8217;s most useful and unique capability.
> 
> The helmet was even more useful in the air-ground role than for designating off-boresight targets for AAMs (*a capability which saw Flight Lieutenant Jim Luke &#8216;down&#8217; a Rafale during a recent NATO TLP exercise*). Using the helmet made it much quicker to find a target, and to accurately determine its position.
> 
> With a known target position, the pilot simply plugs the coordinates into the navigation system, and then follows the HMS cueing to get &#8216;eyes-on&#8217; to a target, confirming with the FAC that he is looking at the right target. Medium-level CAS used to take upwards of 20 minutes trying to get &#8216;eyes-on&#8217;, depending upon the terrain and the FAC&#8217;s ability to describe the target. It still does for every other air-to-ground platform. I estimate that we are typically hot on target in under 5 minutes. No one else can do that. During recent exercises in the UAE the Jaguars proved able to find a target and strike it with four aircraft within three minutes &#8211; something that might take more than five times as long with a formation of Harriers or Tornados.&#8221; .


----------



## anathema

Sancho/Prateek,

Not to play mod or anything like that..you guys are having great discussions which i am just beginning to grasp!! But lets keep a civil tone to the discussions.
Hate if you guys get into a fight !!

Thanks.


----------



## dbc

sancho said:


> I am trying to get infos about older competitions and am going through several threads in different forums, most of the older links doesn't work anymore, but here someone posted several reports at once (quiet interesting!):
> 
> Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums - View Single Post - Rafale News IX
> 
> Btw, I think we don't have to discuss about that such competitions won't be decided by the best fighter right? It's often about political advantages and that's the reason why the F15s won in S. Korea, or Singapore. Which possibly is the main reason why Rafale will win in Brazil and why the F18SH has good chances to win the MMRCA.



As I said I fully expected you to echo Yves Robins's sentiments, he made the same claim after the unsuccessful Korea bid and yet Korea is considering more F-15's I understand they've expressed keen interest in the SE specifically.

Bottom line, the Europeans will find it extremely difficult to compete against LM and Boeing on price and production capacity. Both American firms are offering a platform that has been in production for many years, the program has paid for itself many times over. So far the French have ordered a minuscule 120 Rafale's contrast that with the 4,400 F-16's that have already been built by LM. 

I've said this before I believe penetration into the Indian market is a strategic goal for both American firms and they are pursuing the MRCA deal aggressively. They will likely reinvest the MRCA contract value back into R&E and production plants in India with the aim of reducing cost for some of their established product offerings. 

The undeniable fact is Rafale and Typhoon are both struggling to sustain production for a plane their own armed services can ill afford. Haven't you noticed how Britain and France are happy to offer their own planes to international customer, aircrafts that were originally intended for their own forces. The reason Rafale has lost so many bids is because customers deem it too risky to buy a product that still requires years of development with limited or no funding allocated to make it happen.


----------



## indushek

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> As I said I fully expected you to echo Yves Robins's sentiments, he made the same claim after the unsuccessful Korea bid and yet Korea is considering more F-15's I understand they've expressed keen interest in the SE specifically.
> 
> Bottom line, the Europeans will find it extremely difficult to compete against LM and Boeing on price and production capacity. Both American firms are offering a platform that has been in production for many years, the program has paid for itself many times over. So far the French have ordered a minuscule 120 Rafale's contrast that with the 4,400 F-16's that have already been built by LM.
> 
> I've said this before I believe penetration into the Indian market is a strategic goal for both American firms and they are pursuing the MRCA deal aggressively. They will likely reinvest the MRCA contract value back into R&E and production plants in India with the aim of reducing cost for some of their established product offerings.
> 
> The undeniable fact is Rafale and Typhoon are both struggling to sustain production for a plane their own armed services can ill afford. Haven't you noticed how Britain and France are happy to offer their own planes to international customer, aircrafts that were originally intended for their own forces. The reason Rafale has lost so many bids is because customers deem it too risky to buy a product that still requires years of development with limited or no funding allocated to make it happen.




Look i am just a fanboy and have very very very limited knowledge in technicalities but i have really fallen in love with F-15 SE once i saw it. I would love to see it in IN colours.


----------



## sancho

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Bottom line, the Europeans will find it extremely difficult to compete against LM and Boeing on price and production capacity. Both American firms are offering a platform that has been in production for many years, the program has paid for itself many times over.



True, the development and production costs in Europe are the main problem for them and as long as they don't jointly develop and produce their weapons and techs, it won't change. However, that wasn't the point of the article right?
The point was, that the technical evaluation found the Rafale to be better than the F15 and similar was reported form the Singapore competition too about EF and Rafale, but in both examples the US won. So to be the best, doesn't mean that you will win such competitions!



Death.By.Chocolate said:


> The reason Rafale has lost so many bids is because customers deem it too risky to buy a product that still requires years of development with limited or no funding allocated to make it happen.



Actually 180 Rafales are on order from France and they funded and integrated most of the techs and weapons, so there is no real risk for India, Brazil, UAE, Swiss... with the F3 version anymore. Also unlike several of the EF partners, that have an alternative with F35, France will replace all fighters with Rafale. That means they have produce the aimed numbers (around 280) to replace older fighters anyway.
I see such a risks only at Gripen NG and Mig 35 (in development and no orders yet), or F16IN (outdated fighter with most countries phasing it out now, only UAE will have similar level F16s, so the future potential of it is very low), while EF, Rafale and even the F18SH has enough orders from the developing countries for several years.



indushek said:


> Look i am just a fanboy and have very very very limited knowledge in technicalities but i have really fallen in love with F-15 SE once i saw it. I would love to see it in IN colours.



Off topic, but $100 million for a F15 with CFTs and some more coatings and improved avionics, or $100 million for a real 5. gen Pak Fa?

The decision should be clear!


----------



## indushek

sancho said:


> True, the development and production costs in Europe are the main problem for them and as long as they don't jointly develop and produce their weapons and techs, it won't change. However, that wasn't the point of the article right?
> The point was, that the technical evaluation found the Rafale to be better than the F15 and similar was reported form the Singapore competition too about EF and Rafale, but in both examples the US won. So to be the best, doesn't mean that you will win such competitions!
> 
> 
> 
> Actually 180 Rafales are on order from France and they funded and integrated most of the techs and weapons, so there is no real risk for India, Brazil, UAE, Swiss... with the F3 version anymore. Also unlike several of the EF partners, that have an alternative with F35, France will replace all fighters with Rafale. That means they have produce the aimed numbers (around 280) to replace older fighters anyway.
> I see such a risks only at Gripen NG and Mig 35 (in development and no orders yet), or F16IN (outdated fighter with most countries phasing it out now, only UAE will have similar level F16s, so the future potential of it is very low), while EF, Rafale and even the F18SH has enough orders from the developing countries for several years.
> 
> 
> 
> Off topic, but $100 million for a F15 with CFTs and some more coatings and improved avionics, or $100 million for a real 5. gen Pak Fa?
> 
> The decision should be clear!



But bro we are already into Pak FA , there is no backing there right. What i am saying in addition let us get some 40-50 of these beauties. What do u say??


----------



## soaringphnx

indushek said:


> But bro we are already into Pak FA , there is no backing there right. What i am saying in addition let us get some 40-50 of these beauties. What do u say??



Or we can simply get 40-50 more PAK FAs which have the additional advantage of stealth. Given a choice, would you choose a 4th gen or a 5th gen fighter?


----------



## KEETARP

sancho said:


> I never said that OSF, or MICA have that technology .



Correction for my previous posts , where I claimed MICA lacks FPA seeker .

Sancho , you and me both were wrong . 
Latest build seeker in MICA have that technology .(ref pic attch below)
I apologize for putting up wrong argument based on two year old brochure . 
My bad should have checked latest brochure .


----------



## sancho

LT.PRATEEK said:


> First - the active cancellation is dream-land just like Plasma-Stealth...



See and that is the reason why I don't talk, or agrue about it! It's not developed, or ordered and mainly speculation about its capabilities. 



LT.PRATEEK said:


> When you yourself don't know whether PIMAWS is on offer to India along with Typhoon or not ,
> what is config of Tranche3a .
> 
> Who knows German typhoon might be flying with Infrared MAWS .
> Why do you claim that only Rafale has 360 passive detection when it is not known whether DMM-NG will be developed by 2012 , or will it have DIRCM



That's what I tried to make you understand, it maybe is fully developed by now, but was never integrated in any EF and will only come for future tranches, if fundings for integration will be there. So arguing about a capability of EF, that is not even ordered, or available for any customer doesn't make sense.

Spectra already provides 360° passive detection and enhanced SA, DDM NG is in development and ordered for French Rafale F3 and will be available for them and any export customer from 2012 on. And this improvement will make it more similar and comparable to EO DAS. That's what I am stating from the begining!




LT.PRATEEK said:


> Who says Eurofighter can't cue weapons by its EWS suite , I can explain it rt here . And even better than SPECTRA bcoz of HMS
> but first you tell me how does SPECTRA achieve this and I will explain it to you .



It can't and you argued instead with HMS, or IRST can cue weapons and that is even true, but not the point! We were talking about improved capabilities of SPECTRA EWS compared to Pretorian EWS and the targeting and weapon cueing is one feature that SPECTRA makes more capable. 




LT.PRATEEK said:


> Links for that towed decoy on Rafale , Plz ?????
> not just claim on Forum



Where did I say anything about TD on Rafale? 




LT.PRATEEK said:


> Yes , and to add to your cherry-picking
> Internal Fuel on F18 6530 kgs , Internal fuel on Rafale 4500Kgs .
> Means no fuel tanks on F18 needed .
> Buy F18 , what is so unique about Rafale in above payload or range , that F18 lacks .



 Why cherry-picking? Didn't I always told you that range with higher payload is a key advantage that the Gripen NG can't offer, especially with our eastern borders in mind? So again I din't changed my view, but pointing out advantages and disadvantages of the fighters in the competition.

In terms of range and payload there is nothing unique about Rafale compared to F18SH. Both are clearly the best in this field, but there are still some advantages that the Rafale can offer us in such strike missions.
Lower RCS, fully passive SPECTRA EWS and FSO for detection and cueing of weapons, radar source codes, that gives the possibility of customisation with Indian weapons and no need to ask foreign countries to config the radar for us. The possibility of additional CFTs, so increased range, or more weapons and less drag. More capable to defend itself in VWR, while doing the stirkes (simultaneously firing of MICA and AASM at air and ground targets). 




LT.PRATEEK said:


> Manufacturer's don't believe Keypub , below is the link .



Ok, what about BR? 



> ASMP as an anti radiation missile...  quite the opposite actually. By the way, any idea of the price tag ? If you are looking for anti-radiation missiles for Rafale, look at Denel's catalogue. Denel is said to be on the verge of joining the MBDA consortium. *There is also AASM, the 125kg version is said to have a range of 100km.*



Bharat Rakshak &bull; View topic - MRCA News and Discussion

And there are some French forums stating the same too, however AASM is a very good and more precise weapon than JDAM, the only problem again is the costs. That's why I hope the offered JV/partnership with MBDA for us will include AASM too, would be great to have it besides cheaper Indian, or Russian PGMs.
Btw, you were wrong about MICA IR and FPA, it has this tech integrated too:



> General
> The MICA seeker has been designed
> to fulfil the specific requirements
> of modern air to air missiles.
> It incorporates the latest technologies
> such as focal plane arrays,
> ASICS and real-time digital signal
> processors.



http://www.sagem-ds.com/pdf/en/D084.pdf




LT.PRATEEK said:


> Tell me when its done ,
> Till then just like CAPTOR-AESA , like it or not others are better .



M88-E4 already flying in Rafale and was even fielded in the Swiss trials, where it showed SC capabilities. Not sure if it was in India too, but it is just an upgrade of the exsisting engine, not the new development of the 90kN engine that UAE might want. 




LT.PRATEEK said:


> I would say Eurofighter+Gripen is better . Justify your claim



Why do you quote again out of context? I said one of the best T/W rations, not the best. EF is clearly the top in this regard, but Rafale and I expect the Mig 35 close too. Gripen NG, lets wait till reliable specs for weight and payload first. 




LT.PRATEEK said:


> If true ,
> So finally you admit that Rafale is immature in comparison to F18 . I will say buy mature platform rather than wasting on immature .



Yes, it is less mature compared to it and even to F16IN, but way infront of the Mig, EF and Gripen NG. 
I would say buy a mature fighter with more potential for the 4 decades it is aimed to be in service, than a more mature, but old fighter. 




LT.PRATEEK said:


> But this same stupid Zhuk showed whatever IAF wanted to see in Russia , and fired a 100+ kms range BVR from AESA . Targeted a ground with KAB-500 SE
> 
> *Zhuk-AE AESA radar finished flying tests*( 2 years old news )



As I said, still under development and not operational, 2 year old news for the earlier version, but they offered the improved version in MMRCA right?






LT.PRATEEK said:


> *Bcoz , navy dosen't think it needs AESA rt now *,
> I have a link - Let me search for it by NIIR chief himself " We have offered AESA to next batch of mig29 to India"



What do you mean with right now? Won't these Mig 29Ks and N-LCA server on the same carriers, at the same time (as soon as N-LCA is ready of course)? It is not meant for IAC 2 at the end of the decade right? So if they have Zhuk AE on offer and thinks it would be good enough, they clearly would choose it. 
Also Zhuk AE for the second batch would mean 3 different radars for IN and do you think that is a good idea? I expect Zhuk AE only as an later upgrade.


----------



## sancho

LT.PRATEEK said:


> *If su30 is detected at 300 Km then ,Rafale will be at 150 km by*



Exactly! So it will be detected at half the distance, which makes it clearly more difficult to counter it, compared to MKI. So by logic, sending a Rafale to such a mission is less risky than sending an MKI, that can be detected and countered much earlier.
Btw, don't misunderstand me, every MMRCA will have this clear advantage, but only Rafale and F18SH imo have the capabilities to do such missions and survive.




LT.PRATEEK said:


> Yes , lets compare F18 + Mig35 with rafale
> 
> F18+F16 detection range for Rafale(Fully armed rafale) at 120 kms . Coupled with wedgetail AWACS at 150 kms
> Immediate engagement and shot fired with AIM120 ( 100+ )
> 
> For rafale -
> One - Don't tell me Rafale has better radar than F18 ,
> Two - Even if Rafale detects f18 at range of 160 Kms+ with AWACS , stiil has to wait till it gets within 50kms of F18 to get shot with MICA (only 50kms range for mica ) .
> Get my point



Claimed by you, but as I showed you an F18SH pilot itself, that said that he could detect the Rafale only when it was too late to react. 



LT.PRATEEK said:


> Wrong , few months back on this same very forum you were telling me " All members involved in this project will get METEOR at the same time " .



Read the quote again please!


> ...especially when UAE take Rafale



UAE wants Rafale with Meteor even before we get the first MMRCAs!




LT.PRATEEK said:


> And plz , stop this cross posting from other forums / blogs . Most of them are their personal opinions . Some are baseless claims .



LOL, I posted news reports that mentioned these exercises, not claims from forums only, so far away from beeing baseless!
But it's funny that you say that and starts quoting from forums too.
Btw, Jaguars against Rafale F1 right?



anathema said:


> Sancho/Prateek,
> 
> Not to play mod or anything like that..you guys are having great discussions which i am just beginning to grasp!! But lets keep a civil tone to the discussions.
> Hate if you guys get into a fight !!
> 
> Thanks.



No need to worry, I guess we are old enough to not go over board with it.


----------



## sancho

LT.PRATEEK said:


> Correction for my previous posts , where I claimed MICA lacks FPA seeker .
> 
> Sancho , you and me both were wrong .
> Latest build seeker in MICA have that technology .(ref pic attch below)
> I apologize for putting up wrong argument based on two year old brochure .
> My bad should have checked latest brochure .



Yeah saw it today too and that is not a problem, everybody can make mistakes. But you are jumping too often and too fast into conclusion although it would be better to say we don't know it at the moment.
You claimed EO DAS IR sensors are better because more of them and with FPA and the French doesn't have FPA technology, because FSO and MICA don't have it, so Spectra must be a gen behind. But that's wrong as I showed you, because even in older versions of the Damocles, or recon pod and now even in MICA IR they are using the same tech. Also the report and the pics I posted about DDM NG was the first that came out, so only because nothing about FPA is said there, doesn't mean it won't have it. Most of its capabilities and specs are simply classified.

Same for the Pretorian! I showed you that similar capabilities will only be available in future tranches and you took the same source and concluded that it could be integrated into German EFs (which btw have the least features of Pretorian, because of cost reasons) and that we can have it for sure too. 

Let's keep the discussion an points that are available now, or at least are cleared for the versions that will be available for India for sure ok?


----------



## KEETARP

> fully developed by now, but was never integrated in any EF and will only come for future tranches, if fundings for integration will be there



How come you are sure that they won't . 
Most of the partners dont want AESA but still under pressure for exports AESA is being developed .
Simple thing that Tech is developed and Tested , if India wants it can be integrated . 
To quote from your post only .


> The modular nature of the DASS has also resulted in each consortium nation refining their individual DASS fits. At this time it is becoming increasingly clear that only the Royal Air Force Typhoon's will employ the full set of detection and counter measure systems originally envisaged. *However this can be seen as being of potential benefit for overseas purchases who will be able to specify individual fits tailored to their requirements*. An additional benefit of using such a modular system is that upgrade paths can be somewhat simplified





> Spectra already provides 360° passive detection


So does other MRCA jet , no one is active all are Passive detectors . Want to go thru that cycle again .... I can post again 



> enhanced SA


this enhanced SA is by ---- that DDM-NG infrared MAWS of SPECTRA , correct 
Read about MAW-300 infrared MAWS on Gripen with FPA imaging 
AN/AL-57 on F18 with 360 UV imaging 



> DDM NG is in development and ordered for French Rafale F3 and will be available for them and any export customer from 2012 on


In future if developed without any problems ( F35 and A400....) , may be offered to India . 
By the way IAF evaluation team evaluated aircraft with 2009 tech on-board .



> radar source codes, that gives the possibility of customisation with Indian weapons and no need to ask foreign countries to config the radar for us


So does Gripen , Mig35 , Eurofighter . SAAB integrates any customer's choice free of cost - Did it for South Africa . That's why widest range of weapons .



> The possibility of additional CFTs, so increased range, or more weapons and less drag.


Sorry to say but F16 also have them , nothing like future possibility in case for f16 .
Eurofighter also have CFT programe 



> More capable to defend itself in VWR, while doing the stirkes (simultaneously firing of MICA and AASM at air and ground targets).


Debatable , I would say - F18 best striker out flying . 



> Ok, what about BR? ,
> And there are some French forums stating the same too, however AASM is a very good and more precise weapon than JDAM, the only problem again is the costs.
> That's why I hope the offered JV/partnership with MBDA for us will include AASM too, would be great to have it besides cheaper Indian, or Russian PGMs.



Bharat-rakshak , doesn't know more than SAGEM (manufacturer)
French forum credibility is just like AESA for next MKI upgrade on BR forum
JV , good point , But let's leave future , 
Issue in hand , currently French weapons are extremely over-priced 



> t can't and you argued instead with HMS, or IRST can cue weapons and that is even true, but not the point! We were talking about improved capabilities of SPECTRA EWS compared to Pretorian EWS and the targeting and weapon cueing is one feature that SPECTRA makes more capable.


Since , you haven't answered - I am assuming you don't know . 
Wait for below post , I will show how Spectra does it and how other Jet's do it . 



> In terms of range and payload there is nothing unique about Rafale compared to F18SH. Both are clearly the best in this field, but there are still some advantages that the Rafale can offer us in such strike missions.
> Lower RCS, fully passive SPECTRA EWS and FSO for detection and cueing of weapons, radar source codes, that gives the possibility of customisation with Indian weapons and no need to ask foreign countries to config the radar for us.


Lower RCS - Weak and flawed , when you compare with other MRCA jets .
fully passive SPECTRA EWS and FSO for detection and cueing of weapons - So does F18+Eurofighter wait for explanation 
radar source codes - Possible with all non-US . What is US gonna do can't predict 



> Indian weapons


- Good point , but others can do so as well esp SAAB 



> however AASM is a very good and more precise weapon than JDAM


No one knows more than SAGEM 
CEP by SAGEM is 10m , JDAM has -------- should I 



> Btw, you were wrong about MICA IR and FPA, it has this tech integrated too


I am extremely sorry , for that flawed statement . I have posted earlier 



> M88-E4 already flying in Rafale and was even fielded in the Swiss trials, where it showed SC capabilities. Not sure if it was in India too, but it is just an upgrade of the exsisting engine, not the new development of the 90kN engine that UAE might want.


No , not a single Rafale in service has uprated engine . 
Clean config or with combat load supercruise ???? Gripen supercruises with A2A combat load at Mach1.2-1.5
*There is a reason why UAE wants new engine and not uprated one , *why ??
Same why , that Even EJ-2000 can be uprated to more than 100kn of thrust in war time but that affects MTBO , FUEL , Failures ... . So EJ-2000 is kept at 90kn 



> Why do you quote again out of context? I said one of the best T/W rations, not the best. EF is clearly the top in this regard, but Rafale and I expect the Mig 35 close too. Gripen NG, lets wait till reliable specs for weight and payload first.


Fine , that's what I meant - Eurofighter , Gripen are better . Mig is close or equal.



> Yes, it is less mature compared to it and even to F16IN, but way infront of the Mig, EF and Gripen NG.
> I would say buy a mature fighter with more potential for the 4 decades it is aimed to be in service, than a more mature, but old fighter.


So , conclusion F18,F16 is mature + battle proven + Cheap 



> As I said, still under development and not operational, 2 year old news for the earlier version, but they offered the improved version in MMRCA right?


Yes , and to tell you by NIIR chief himself . 
Better version is not better in terms of Performance , but because extra modules add reliability factor , even if 200 modules fail no effect on radar performance . Even 660 module are more than enough for Ranges asked by IAF.



> What do you mean with right now? Won't these Mig 29Ks and N-LCA server on the same carriers, at the same time (as soon as N-LCA is ready of course)? It is not meant for IAC 2 at the end of the decade right? So if they have Zhuk AE on offer and thinks it would be good enough, they clearly would choose it.
> Also Zhuk AE for the second batch would mean 3 different radars for IN and do you think that is a good idea? I expect Zhuk AE only as an later upgrade.



You answer your query yourself - Three different radar types ......
Not me , but Navy says it doesn't need AESA . It doesn't go by your wishful thinking to have all goodies . And Gorshkov can only handle 20 aircrafts , its hanger is designed so . Extra Mig29K are for IAC.
LCA not comin before 2015 - or may be late . 
Their role is unknown .


----------



## dbc

sancho said:


> or F16IN (outdated fighter with most countries phasing it out now, only UAE will have similar level F16s, so the future potential of it is very low), while EF, Rafale and even the F18SH has enough orders from the developing countries for several years.



..wrong, the F-16 is not an "outdated fighter" certainly not for the IAF, the F-16IN or Block 60 is more capable than any other aircraft in the IAF's current arsenal. The F-16 has continuously evolved over the years, as a matter of fact LM plans to incorporate technology from the F-35 into the F-16. The F-16 is surprisingly modular and can easily scale to any role, for instance the APG-68 upgrade to the latest production AESA on F-16 takes only 30 minutes to accomplish. 

There has also been a lot of talk about RCS, a fully loaded F-16 will have the same RCS as a fully loaded Rafale nullifying any LO design clean configuration gain.



> Actually 180 Rafales are on order from France and they funded and integrated most of the techs and weapons, so there is no real risk for India, Brazil, UAE, Swiss... with the F3 version anymore. Also unlike several of the EF partners, that have an alternative with F35, France will replace all fighters with Rafale. That means they have produce the aimed numbers (around 280) to replace older fighters anyway.



280 orders does not offer the same economies of scale as 4,400 - the numbers just don't add up.Both Rafale and Typhoon are at the lower end of the technology maturity curve and so you are wrong about the absence of risk, integration work is ongoing - the Europeans continue to experience reliability and performance issues - thus the risk of owning a &#32440;&#32769;&#34382;.  

Finally the TOT issue, TOT expectation is misunderstood by many; TOT does not give the buyer rights to the intellectual property. It allows a local affiliate / subsidiary or joint venture access to the requisite manufacturing "know how" enabling local authorized production under license - this is the IAF's expectation from all MRCA participants.

All things considered, including the political aspect the American offering is very competitive and so the case for the Rafale is not as cut and dry as you believe it to be. My money is on an American winner and I have an uncanny ability of picking winners .

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## KEETARP

> Exactly! So it will be detected at half the distance, which makes it clearly more difficult to counter it, compared to MKI. So by logic, sending a Rafale to such a mission is less risky than sending an MKI, that can be detected and countered much earlier.



Out of context ,you are pulling up lines from in between statements .

Rafale will not be detected at half distance of Su30 , wrong ?? . When I wrote they were arbitrary figures 

Look at radar equation in terms of RCS , RCS is not directly proportional for range , but varies as 1/4th root of RCS






That is the biggest mistake everyone makes when they try to downplay F15/Su30 like fighter with comparison to others .

So if you compare armed su30 v armed rafale in A2A detection by hostile radar

Contribution mathematically is 1.32 by Rafale(3m2 RCS) and 1.85 by su30 (12m2 RCS) by the fourth root of respective RCS as per above radar equation .
Keep all parameters same , multiply by same 100 in both factors . 
*Range for Rafale comes 132 , while range for su30 comes 185 *.

At these ranges , neither Rafale can fire MICA nor Su30 can fire R77. And Erieye would know each of them at 250kms+ range 

For Air2A
50 Kms difference right ??, and su30 makes it up by powerful radar in comparison to RBE2 . 
In addition R77 has 50km advantage over Rafale .

For A2G
At this range , Su30/F16/F18/ can fire ARM missile with 150+range while Rafale has to wait to get 60kms for AASM. 

50 Kms difference right ??,
Rafale is detected late - yes . 
*But not that late - that it can hide to get close to AWACS/Jet (within 50 kms of Erieye to fire MICA) before other AWACS or jet knows Rafale is flying around* . 
Even a mediocre AWACS will pick up Rafale (2-3m2 RCS) at more than 60kms 
For that matter Erieye2000 + F16-APG68 + su30-MKK + Jf17 have powerful radars . 

All above figures are just speculation , far from actual RCS figures of Jet+missile+Tank which only Manufacturer's know .


Point stands - 
-Buying rafale - you don't go invisible
-MICA can only be fired at 50Kms range ( Armed Rafale dosen't have stealth to get close to within 50kms of Eriye undetected )
-Rafale lacks HMS for WVR edge
-F16 /MKM can fire AIM120/R77 at more than 100kms range 

Conclusion , buying any Jet in MRCA as costly as F22/Pak-Fa even , dosen't brings stealth to outsmart F16+Erieye and reach within 50kms of F16 undetected ,
only jet that can do it are outright stealth design in all electromagnetic spectrum., 
or a jet like su30 armed with long-range anti-AWACS missile .

RCS point is moot and flawed , 
Eurofighter and Gripen have better RCS than Rafale and more BVR capable with AIM120c7 and of course with HMS



> Btw, don't misunderstand me, every MMRCA will have this clear advantage, but only Rafale and F18SH imo have the capabilities to do such missions and survive


No , F18+F16 both 
wait for my next post about Cueing of weapons by EWS suite 



> Claimed by you, but as I showed you an F18SH pilot itself, that said that he could detect the Rafale only when it was too late to react.



cherry picking from blogs 
Don't tell me you believe it .

Just to show Flaws - 
No mention of ROE( Engagement rules , whether strong point of F18 were neutralized by rules - Like just 50kms range allowed with AIM120 to make it favorable to French wrt to MICA + Radar were in training mode to neutralize APG-79 which is strongest point of F18)
No mention of AWACS , while 2 posts back educating me PAF has awacs ........ etc etc etc 
Hard to swallow APG79 AESA on F18 failed in comparison to PESA-RBE of Rafale
Third - 10KW antennae of APG79 which can detect 1m2 RCS at more than 120+Kms failed to detect 2m2 Rafale . 

To answer that , still vintage Jaguar could detect Rafale and destroy . And a Bison can beat F15E. 



> UAE wants Rafale with Meteor even before we get the first MMRCAs


Does it imply Sweden,UK,Germany who are developers and partners will get late than UAE ( if at all deal finalizes this year) ----- Baseless .



> But it's funny that you say that and starts quoting from forums too.
> Btw, Jaguars against Rafale F1 right?



To show , how you are selectively biased 
DBC is correct . 
You happily quote - Rafale did this , did that , but don't tell when Rafale lose .
In Red-Flag2008 as Video of Col debriefing says - French were not engaging/taking shot but only spying out there . 
But you quote "rafale performed excellent in Red-Flag " not that video .
A video is better proof than some blog/forum statements by some random person
btw you mention Bharat-Rakshak link but you don't point to another article link on same page describing Rafale as an ordinary machine + criticism of rafale .
I have not posted single evaluation report where Gripen/Eurofighter/F16/F18 won or are leading . 
Or reports where two Eurofighter beat 14 F15

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## KEETARP

CUEING of WEAPONS by EW suite 

To show how much hyped that cueing by Spectra thing is , and others have same capability 

For cueing up weapons by a sensor (like Spectra), you need 
- that it can *Locate and Identify threats* to cue sensors and even target weapons 
- Should have a *Ranging* *capability to provide the target coordinates* to weapons while cueing . 

How this is done in Rafale - 
Ranging of threats in Rafale can be done by either *SPECTRA alone* + or in combination with Laser-Range-Finder of FSO / or RBE radar . 

Range-finding Capability which everyone claims for Spectra- *is achieved by the RWR(Part of ESM-Electronic support measure) of SPECTRA , done via sequential triangulation and amplitude measurement*. 
RWR of the SPECTRA can provide the target coordinates to weapons like AASM as Rafale B F2 have done during the september 2006 TLP at Albacete, Spain (was reported in one of the AFM issues around that time).
point to note - you aren't using the radar to get those data and you don't need the LaserRanngeFinder or any other sensor as well .
SPECTRA System is capable to find exact locations of ground based/naval emitters which aren't moving at all or not very fast. These data are enough to target a weapon such as the AASM. A radar doesn't provide you with much more details regarding localisation of ground targets either.
Second system that provides Range-Finding is --by Thermal imaging Angular resolution of DDM-NG MAWS .
Angular location of Spectra sensors 
All of course done passively . 

Point to be noted that cueing is for specific weapon system only - 
SPECTRAL cueing is specific for MICA+ASMP .
SPECTRA can not cue ASRAAM / METEOR / Paveway bombs for good reasons , missile being cued should have launchers integrated with data from particular sensors connected by high-speed buses .

*Advanced RWR systems are better described as ESM* and provide capabilities which were previously just found on dedicated ELS.
*ESM today includes RWR,LWR,MAWS to form along with Jammers what we call Electronic-Warfare suite* .

Must read published paper link below 

BHARAT RAKSHAK MONITOR: Volume 5(1)

Airborne Electronic Countermeasures


*And this kind of capability isn't even new, Tornado ECR ECR (Electronic Combat-Recce) as well as the Tornado IDS (InterDiction-Strike) and F-16CJ with their ELS/HTS/TI Emitter Locating System (ELS) could so as well to target HARMs passively . *
*To add those ELS-Emitter location system /HTS Harm Targeting system constitute what we call ESM ( Electronic support measures)*.

The "newness" of modern RWRs is that they don't act as simple threat warning devices, but also as SA tools. This is certainly not unique to the SPECTRA's RWR , Other systems such as the F-22's AN/ALR-94, Typhoon's DASS , FalconEdges L-105 can do so as well . 

Here is more information about ESM + RWR in modern EW suites - by JANE'S 
Integrated defence: DAS evolves to warn aircraft of emergent threats - Jane's Defence Systems News.

*To bust this big myth that only SPECTRA ( EW suite) can cue weapons passively , I am taking example of Falcon-Edge program for Block60F16 of UAE *

Falcon edge system, it includes a passive location/direction finding capability that uses *interfereometry* instead of triangulation and amplitude measurment. 

Interferometry involves use of *Direction finding antennas*



> BAE SYSTEMS Advanced Systems was recently awarded a contract by Northrop Grumman for the development of a Precision Direction Finding (PDF) antenna subsystem. The PDF Array is part of the Northrop Grumman Falcon Edge Program.
> 
> The initial contract for the design, development, prototype and manufacture of two Engineering Development Model (EDM) shipsets is valued at $1.98 million.
> 
> BAE SYSTEMS has also been informed by Northrop Grumman that they are the successful bidders for more antenna assemblies on the Falcon Edge Program. That award, coupled with the anticipated production of the antennas and associated radomes for 80 aircraft and spares, places the value of this contract just over $16 million with a performance period starting in 2002 and ending in 2004.



Source for above - BAE Systems Investor Brief - March 2002



> One of the most secretly held pieces of equipment in the new batch of block 60 F-16s seems to be the EW gear, aka Falcon Edge or IEWS (Integrated Electronic Warfare Suite).
> *According to the Norhrop Grumman's Defensive Systems Division (DSD) website*, Falcon Edge is "based on a revolutionary concept that leverages the latest radio frequency (RF) and digital technologies(...). Falcon Edge is comprised of two major subsystems: a passive receiver and an active jammer. Both systems utilize common technology that allows higher levels of subsystem interoperability. Falcon Edge features high sensitivity, wide-band digital receivers, and digitally based countermeasures".
> *The advanced EW system is "entirely internal, as opposed to the external pods carried by USAF F-16*. The system incorporates classified digital technology that warns pilots of enemy radars while simultaneously sending out countermeasure signals, and will automatically dispense chaff and/or flares to decoy enemy radar or missiles. A significant capability is that it also provides the location of the threat emitter, rather than simply showing the direction the radar is comming from, to allow the pilot to attack it".



This last line above would clearify - Its not only Rafale that have Passive cueing by EW suite , but F16E are capable of doing so as well . In addition F16 have AN/AAR-56 UV imaging system to provide angular resolution of targets .


Jane's IDR (International Defence Review/February, 2001) - 
It states that Northrop Grumman "has additionally developed the LR-105 RWR and precision targeting system for the F-16 Block 60. *The LR-105 is a highly modified adaptation of the LR-100 electronic support measures (ESM) system, which combines the NexGen digital receiver chipset with Litton's patented Long Baseline Interferometer passive geolocation technology".* 

The Falcon Edge provides radar warning, jamming, and emitter targeting. As in the case of the F/A-22 and JSF, the passive EW system helps to locate and identify airborne and surface targets and can locate a surface target in distance as well as bearing. BAE Systems (Nashua, NH), which did not win the integrating contract for the EW system but provides precision direction-finding (PDF) antennas to Northrop Grumman, has stated that the Block 60 system was designed to "exceed existing system capabilities several-fold," including long- and short-baseline interferometry antennas used for target location. 

People more interested should read - about Falcon-Edge+L105 
Here is one of them -
http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_view...asc-sid-9e21fe80cc553c506f995d4d0a92e34c.html

Even though this line 
" A significant capability is that it also provides the location of the threat emitter, rather than simply showing the direction the radar is comming from, to allow the pilot to attack it " 
should be enough to clear doubt about uniqueness of Rafale . 
I explain now how F18 does that 

F18 has along with its AN/ALR-67 (v)3 RWR/ESM , an integrated bus with CLC1000 ( HARM avionics) .

AN/ALR-67(V)3 Advanced Special Receiver





> The AN/ALR-67(V)3 *Advanced Special Receiver* is a radar warning receiver (RWR) . The ASR is a radar warning receiver (RWR) intended to supersede the AN/ALR-67E(v)2 [formerly AN/ALR-67(v)2 (ECP-510)] with extended capabilities in detection and processing of air defense threat radars of the mid 1990 and beyond time period. It functions cooperatively with the onboard suppression and defensive systems (high-speed anti-radiation missile (HARM), countermeasure dispensers, and RF jammer) via data exchanged over the EW multiplex bus and the HARM data bus.





> The ASR collection categories include: high band pulse (2-40 GHz); high band continuous wave; low band pulse (less than 2 GHz); and millimeter wave MMW (28-40 GHz). The ASR provides signal detection, direction finding, and identification of radio frequency (RF) and MMW threat emitters including: scanning, pulse Doppler and continuous wave tracking, acquisition and early warning radars, and missile guidance.



*The red highlighted part shows capability of RWR-ASR of F18 has ability to passively cue weapons .
This should suffice but to explain how HARM is cued *

AGM-88 HARM (high-speed antiradiation missile) - Smart Weapons



> The CP-1001B/C HARM Command Launch Computer (CLC) is an electronics subsystem installed on the airframe to interface with the AGM-88 A/B/C HARM Missile. The CLC and associated software package are compatible with all AGM-88 A/B/C missiles. The CLC receives target data from the missile and onboard avionics, processes the data for display to the aircrew to the appropriate display, determines target priority, and collects aircraft data for pre-launch hand-off to the AGM-88 HARM missile. The CLC determines time coincidence between the AGM-88 HARM missile and the RWR directional data and pulse repetition intervals and formats. The identification data is processed by the CLC to perform target identification, prioritization, and display information. The CLC generates targeting commands to the AGM-88 HARM missile for appropriate target and provides Targeting and guidance information for the AGM-88 to Target Of Interest (TOI) on offensive attack missions.





> HARM can be employed in one of three modes, selected with PB3, PB4, and PB5 of the HARM SMS MDI page.
> Of which the Self-protection mode is passive and by EW suite alone .
> SP (self-protect) mode is an automatic targeting mode of the HARM. When the HARM SP mode is selected and the
> Superhornet's EW system detects that a ground-based radar is guiding a missile at your aircraft, a HARM will
> automatically be selected for firing and the intended target will be boxed on the HUD and in the SMS MDI display. No
> other emitters will appear in the MDI. The next press of the weapon pickle button will release a HARM.
> 
> If a hostile radar is guiding a missile intended for your aircraft, the HARM SP mode will activate even if another weapon,
> or even another master mode, is currently selected. This condition is called an "SP pullback", indicating that the current
> master mode and weapon selection has been pulled back and replaced with an active HARM. When a pullback condition
> exists, "HARM" will appear in the middle of the HUD. If the release of a HARM is currently inhibited, "HARM" will appear.
> HARM release will be inhibited if the landing gear is down, the Master Arm is OFF, or if the release of another weapon is
> currently in progress.
> The only time a HARM pullback will not occur in SP mode is if the HRM-OR (HARM Override) option is boxed on the
> SMS or EW MDI pages. This option is toggled with PB16 on either of these two MDI pages; when the HRM-OR text is
> boxed the override is active. HARM Override is useful for the terminal stages of weapons deployment, when an SP
> pullback would interrupt weapons delivery.
> 
> Like TOO mode, HARMs fired in SP mode will attempt to strike their target even if target emissions cease while the
> HARM is in flight.



http://tsh.war-fighters.net/index2.php?option=com_content&do_pdf=1&id=39

F/A-18 & EA-18G PROGRAM

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## Insane

Its really annoying to see dates being postponed like Sunny Paaji said in a movie called "DAMINI" with respect to Indian courtroom procedure -

" Tareeq pe Tareeq ... Tareeq pe Tareeq... Mili hai to bas Tareeq .. Insaaf Nahin Mila " ...

So Bring on Justice sooner.. Delayed justice is equivalent to no justice..


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## Insane

BTW... 

F-18 SH is most likely going to win it.. so why delay ... I am fine with any of these 6 birds coming on time. 

If i have to guess the shortlist it would be -

F 18 for sure..
Either of Gripen or Mig-35 ( People think they are ruled out, but they are not)
Either of Eurofighter or Rafale... (I just feel both of them wont make it to the shortlist)


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## CONNAN

*MiG-35 OLS RADAR * source defence talk . com

OLS, as well as radar, allows to detect targets and aim weapon systems. But, unlike the radar, OLS has no emission which means - cant be detected. OLS works like a human eye - it gets picture and analyzes it. Usually its been said radars are the eyes of the plane. But to be exact, its more locator device, like whales has. But OLS is really the eyes of the plane and they are very sharp. OLS works not only in visible bands. Very important part of plane vision is IR picture. NII PP engineers has chosen more short-wave bands for the matrix, which has increased sensitivity of the complex in several times and has increased detection range greatly. MiG-35 OLS may see USAF stealth planes very nicely as well. Today its impossible to hide the plane from the complex of powerful optics with IR vision. This optical system can distinguish targets and aim weapons as well. Since, it has no emmissions, it is very silent


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## indushek

soaringphnx said:


> Or we can simply get 40-50 more PAK FAs which have the additional advantage of stealth. Given a choice, would you choose a 4th gen or a 5th gen fighter?



But buddy F-15 is a proven fighter and that too u cannot call it 4th gen i.e. i am speaking about F15 SE, which is said to store weapons in internal bays and has frontal stealth features right. So 40-50 will be an added advantage. Love to see F-15 kicking the @$$$ of F-16.


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## CONNAN

*US national security adviser&#8217;s visit fuels hope for 126 fighter aircraft deal*

US national security adviser&#8217;s visit fuels hope for 126 fighter aircraft deal

BY EDITOR AT 15 JULY, 2010, 3:12 PM

BY: TNN

US national security adviser Gen James Jones in his first preparatory talks for US President Barack Obama&#8217;s visit here in November spent some quality time with Air Chief Marshal P V Naik in a meeting that has rekindled interest in the humongous 126 fighter aircraft deal.

Jones met the PM and his Indian counterpart Shiv Shankar Menon on Wednesday. On Thursday, he is scheduled to meet home minister P Chidambaram, leader of the opposition in the Rajya Sabha Arun Jaitley, defence minister A K Antony and the Army and Navy chiefs. The US is very interested in the fighter deal, but the Air Force is reportedly still working on the report after the trials.

The visit &#8212; slated for the first week of November &#8212; is expected to sharpen the US and India&#8217;s focus on each other, particularly since the bilateral tiesseem to have developed some wrinkles of late.

The Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft is a $10.4-billion deal, and two US firms &#8212; Lockheed Martin and Boeing &#8212; are among the six foreign contenders to grab the lucrative project to supply 126 fighters to the Indian Air Force


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## CONNAN

BY: GRIPEN.COM
International public debut of Gripen NG Demonstrator

Gripen NG Demonstrator will be displayed to the public for the first time outside Sweden. The event will take place in the UK during the Royal International Air Tattoo (RIAT) in Fairford 1718 July and the following week at the Farnborough International Airshow.

The fighter will be arriving in Farnborough on Monday, 19 July and will be on static display until Friday 23 July.

Gripen NG Demonstrator is a flying platform for the development of new technologies and features incorporated into the Gripen NG  the next generation fighter with significantly increased combat range and endurance, increased payload and super-cruise capability.

The extensive flight test programme with Gripen NG Demonstrator aircraft continues successfully and according to plan at the Saab facilities in Linköping, Sweden. This gives us the unique opportunity to bring the aircraft to UK during the Swedish summer holiday break, says Lennart Sindahl, Senior Vice President Saab AB and Head of Business Area Aeronautics.

Previously, the Gripen NG Demonstrator has only been outside Sweden once. This was in May this year when it flew from Sweden to India, where evaluation trials were conducted by the Indian Air Force. This demanding evaluation phase included operations at the Indian air base Leh, situated 3300 meters above sea level. During this time, the aircraft also passed its 150th flight and to date it has conducted more than 175 sucessful flights.

The Gripen NG Programme offers a completely new avionics systems structure which will guarantee over 100% spare computing capacity and 30% spare capacity in all of the aircraft systems. The new structure makes it very easy and cost-effective to incorporate new functionality or integrate new hardware which in turn ensures that Gripen maintains its world leading capability throughout its service life.

Saab is now testing all the tactical systems, such as the AESA radar and the new communications system.

The test programme is very extensive, we have finished, and successfully verified, the flight tests of the electro-optical Missile Approach Warning System (MAWS) and the new fuel system with larger internal fuel tanks, says Mattias Bergström, the Gripen NG Demonstrator project manager.

The results of the Gripen NG Demonstrator Program will be used in both existing and new versions of the Gripen specifically tailored to the needs of specific customers, both nationally and for export.


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## CONNAN

Eurofighter nations offered AESA radar enhancement

BY EDITOR AT 16 JULY, 2010, 2:05 AM

By Craig Hoyle / Flight International
The Euroradar consortium has made an offer to provide an active electronically scanned array radar enhancement for Eurofighter partner nations Germany, Italy, Spain and the UK.

We have tabled a proposal using risk-reduction work that has already been done, says Steve Mogford, chief executive of Selex Galileo, lead stakeholder in the Euroradar group. Were just waiting for them to drop the flag. The move represents a standalone offer, and is not linked to the proposed Tranche 3B production phase of the Eurofighter programme, he adds.

The Euroradar consortium has proposed retaining as much back-end equipment from the Eurofighters current mechanically scanned radar as possible as part of delivering the proposed E-Captor system.

http://www.flightglobal.com/assets/getAsset.aspx?ItemID=33823
© Eurofighter

Selex Galileo is already working towards integrating an AESA array with the Eurofighter for the UK under a technology demonstration programme worth around £20 million ($30 million). A modified aircraft is expected to fly in 2013 under the initiative.

The Eurofighter industrial consortium has cited the availability of an AESA array as a key addition if it is to secure additional export orders with the Typhoon. The type is currently being offered to meet requirements in nations including India, Japan, Oman and Switzerland.

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## CONNAN

India may ink MMRCA project of Rs 42K cr by mid-2011
BY EDITOR AT 16 JULY, 2010, 2:23 AM

BY : TNN

Even as the Americans, Europeans and Russians jostle to bag the &#8220;mother of all defence deals&#8221;, India too is now pressing the throttle to ensure the contract to acquire 126 new fighters under the Rs 42,000-crore medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) project is inked by mid-2011.

IAF, after all, wants to induct the first lot of these 126 fighters by 2014 to retain its combat edge. It is left with just 32 fighter squadrons (each has 12 to 18 jets) at present, down from the &#8220;sanctioned&#8221; strength of 39.5 squadrons. This when Pakistan is getting new American F-16s and Chinese fighters, while China assiduously builds new airbases in Tibet and south China.

&#8220;We are ready with the flight evaluation trials (FET) report of the six foreign fighters in contention. Based on it, we are right now generating the staff evaluation report. Both will be submitted to defence ministry by this month-end,&#8221; said IAF chief Air Chief Marshal P V Naik, in an exclusive interview to TOI on Thursday.

The eagerly-awaited reports, which have evaluated the fighters on as many as 643 technical attributes after the gruelling field trials, will be followed by evaluation of offset proposals, opening of commercial bids and the final complex negotiations.

The hotly-contested race to bag the lucrative MMRCA project, the largest such programme around the globe, is among F/A-18 `Super Hornet&#8217; and F-16 `Falcon&#8217; (both US), Gripen (Swedish), Rafale (French), MiG-35 (Russian) and Eurofighter Typhoon jets.

&#8220;We definitely need the MMRCA, LCA (the indigenous Tejas light combat aircraft) and FGFA (the fifth-generation fighter aircraft to be developed with Russia) without any delays to retain our combat edge,&#8221; said ACM Naik.

&#8220;We also have signed deals for 230 Sukhoi-30MKI fighters (over 110 have been inducted) with Russia. Another 42 Sukhois will be ordered soon. We want at least 42 fighter squadrons by 2022,&#8221; he added.

All eyes, of course, are on the MMRCA project. &#8220;The trials have been conducted in an exemplary, fair and professional manner. We have to be very transparent because the deal is very large,&#8221; said the IAF chief.

&#8220;The amount of data collated in our voluminous and exhaustive reports is phenomenal. They, in fact, can serve as a template to evaluate aircraft by any country,&#8221; he added.

As reported earlier, India is also likely to factor in its geo-strategic interests while deciding the MMRCA winner, with PM Manmohan Singh himself holding large defence deals must be leveraged to serve the country&#8217;s larger diplomatic ends.

This will be the first time that India will take into account &#8220;life-cycle costs&#8221; &#8212; the cost of operating the fighters over a 40-year period, with 6,000 hours of flying &#8212; rather than just pitching for the lowest bidder in a defence contract. While 18 jets will be bought off-the-shelf, the rest will be manufactured in India under transfer of technology to Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd.


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## MZUBAIR

connanxlrc1000 said:


> India may ink MMRCA project of Rs 42K cr by mid-2011
> BY EDITOR AT 16 JULY, 2010, 2:23 AM
> 
> BY : TNN
> 
> Even as the Americans, Europeans and Russians jostle to bag the &#8220;mother of all defence deals&#8221;, India too is now pressing the throttle to ensure the contract to acquire 126 new fighters under the Rs 42,000-crore medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) project is inked by mid-2011.
> 
> IAF, after all, wants to induct the first lot of these 126 fighters by 2014 to retain its combat edge. It is left with just 32 fighter squadrons (each has 12 to 18 jets) at present, down from the &#8220;sanctioned&#8221; strength of 39.5 squadrons. This when Pakistan is getting new American F-16s and Chinese fighters, while China assiduously builds new airbases in Tibet and south China.
> 
> &#8220;We are ready with the flight evaluation trials (FET) report of the six foreign fighters in contention. Based on it, we are right now generating the staff evaluation report. Both will be submitted to defence ministry by this month-end,&#8221; said IAF chief Air Chief Marshal P V Naik, in an exclusive interview to TOI on Thursday.
> 
> The eagerly-awaited reports, which have evaluated the fighters on as many as 643 technical attributes after the gruelling field trials, will be followed by evaluation of offset proposals, opening of commercial bids and the final complex negotiations.
> 
> The hotly-contested race to bag the lucrative MMRCA project, the largest such programme around the globe, is among F/A-18 `Super Hornet&#8217; and F-16 `Falcon&#8217; (both US), Gripen (Swedish), Rafale (French), MiG-35 (Russian) and Eurofighter Typhoon jets.
> 
> &#8220;We definitely need the MMRCA, LCA (the indigenous Tejas light combat aircraft) and FGFA (the fifth-generation fighter aircraft to be developed with Russia) without any delays to retain our combat edge,&#8221; said ACM Naik.
> 
> &#8220;We also have signed deals for 230 Sukhoi-30MKI fighters (over 110 have been inducted) with Russia. Another 42 Sukhois will be ordered soon. We want at least 42 fighter squadrons by 2022,&#8221; he added.
> 
> All eyes, of course, are on the MMRCA project. &#8220;The trials have been conducted in an exemplary, fair and professional manner. We have to be very transparent because the deal is very large,&#8221; said the IAF chief.
> 
> &#8220;The amount of data collated in our voluminous and exhaustive reports is phenomenal. They, in fact, can serve as a template to evaluate aircraft by any country,&#8221; he added.
> 
> As reported earlier, India is also likely to factor in its geo-strategic interests while deciding the MMRCA winner, with PM Manmohan Singh himself holding large defence deals must be leveraged to serve the country&#8217;s larger diplomatic ends.
> 
> This will be the first time that India will take into account &#8220;life-cycle costs&#8221; &#8212; the cost of operating the fighters over a 40-year period, with 6,000 hours of flying &#8212; rather than just pitching for the lowest bidder in a defence contract. While 18 jets will be bought off-the-shelf, the rest will be manufactured in India under transfer of technology to Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd.



Y so delay...
It was first expected in 2007 then 09 then in 10 and now in 2011.
Any ways best of luck India may be this time they will descide.


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## CONNAN

MZUBAIR said:


> Y so delay...
> It was first expected in 2007 then 09 then in 10 and now in 2011.
> Any ways best of luck India may be this time they will descide.



well some of our poltical baboons are in deep slumber cant help it buddy


----------



## anoopsaxena76

Any big defence deal overshoots the originally proposed timeline. That is true of any deal anywhere in the world, even internally. 

What I do not understand seriously though is why is the IAF looking at these planes? They are looking at 4th Gen planes with some cosmetic changes done to call them 4+. This is going to be prohibitively costly in the long run. 

Regards,
Anoop.


----------



## Archie

anoopsaxena76 said:


> Any big defence deal overshoots the originally proposed timeline. That is true of any deal anywhere in the world, even internally.
> 
> What I do not understand seriously though is why is the IAF looking at these planes? They are looking at 4th Gen planes with some cosmetic changes done to call them 4+. This is going to be prohibitively costly in the long run.
> 
> Regards,
> Anoop.



Well u have a valid point up there , 
However india cannot wait till 2018 for the induction of PAKFA ,
You must be knowing that india operates 32-33 fighter squadron against a sanctioned strength of 39.5 
So we are already down by about 7
Another thing is that it will be stupid to believe that mmrca will replace the mig21 , thats bogus
Out of the 450 migs which were inducted between 1970-1984 , only 210 remain in service , the rest having been retired or lost in crashes.
These aircraft have been in part replaced by the Su30mki ,120 of which are currently in service .
We have a deficit of 6-7 squadrons becoz out of the 240 mig21 which have been retired or lost , only 120 have been replaced by Su30mki , the rest of the migs will be replaced by 150 Su30mki and 140 Tejas .
THATS 410 AIRCRAFTS REPLACING 450 WHICH IS NOT BAD

The mmrca will replace , firstly the 100 Odd Mig27 curently in service , and to some extend the Jaguar .
India currently operate around 139 Jaguars which include 102 IS ,12 IM and 24 trainers , out of this 100 jaguar IS and 20 trainers will be Upgraded and will remain in service till 2022 , the sole IM squadron will retire 
India has also ordered 47 Jaguars including 40 IS and 7 Trainers , of the same spec as the upgraded JaguarsN
These are meant to replace 43 Mig27 ie 32 upg fighters and 11 trainers which were supposed to operate till 2022 , and now will be retired along with the rest of mig 27s in a phased manner starting 2012
Now if i have made myself clear then u would understand the real reason behind acquiring mmrca , that is to the bulk of our ground attack fighters instead of just the mig21 interceptors
These being replaced by Su30mki for Airsuperiority , and LCA as interceptor 
If india were to just wait and acquire PAKFA in 2018 , then we would have been left with a fleet of just 67 Jaguars and 51 Mirage 2000 ie 118 ground attack aircraft by 2022 as against a present fleet of 288 AIR TO GROUND AIRCRAFT
Even the PAKFA is primarily an air superiority fighter , and you require a good mix of both air superiority and ground attack for an air force 
as far as india is concerned , i expect them to operate 500 air superiority , 200 ground attack and 140 interceptors in 2025 , making a squadron strength of 42


----------



## KEETARP

connanxlrc1000 said:


> BY: GRIPEN.COM
> International public debut of Gripen NG Demonstrator
> 
> The Gripen NG Programme offers a completely new avionics systems structure which will guarantee over 100% spare computing capacity and 30% spare capacity in all of the aircraft systems. The new structure makes it very easy and cost-effective to incorporate new functionality or integrate new hardware which in turn ensures that Gripen maintains its world leading capability throughout its service life.
> 
> 
> The test programme is very extensive, we have finished, and successfully verified, the flight tests of the electro-optical Missile Approach Warning System (MAWS) and the new fuel system with larger internal fuel tanks, says Mattias Bergström, the Gripen NG Demonstrator project manager.



Red part of above article is interesting , 
Electro-optical MAWS ........
Meaning Enhanced Situational awareness with passive detection.
\ (NG-DDM now available with Gripen )


----------



## hal-fgfa

MZUBAIR said:


> Y so delay...
> It was first expected in 2007 then 09 then in 10 and now in 2011.
> Any ways best of luck India may be this time they will descide.



We need MRCA fighter to counter Chinese J10B and thats still in development phase so dont wary till then our MKIs are enough for all .


----------



## Dash

hal-fgfa said:


> We need MRCA fighter to counter Chinese J10B and thats still in development phase so dont wary till then our MKIs are enough for all .


All of us...

Can we please go beyond China??, it sometimes sucks when some of us say that our progress in any term is in race with China, towards China all of that.

So please dont compare our things with China, we are not in race with them.


----------



## jha

*Tests over, IAF set to pick one out of 6 contenders for mega jet deal*


NEW DELHI: Even as the Americans, Europeans and Russians jostle to bag the "mother of all defence deals'', India too is now pressing the throttle to ensure the contract to acquire 126 new fighters under the Rs 42,000-crore medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) project is inked by mid-2011.

IAF, after all, wants to induct the first lot of these 126 fighters by 2014 to retain its combat edge. It is left with just 32 fighter squadrons (each has 12 to 18 jets) at present, down from the "sanctioned'' strength of 39.5 squadrons. This when Pakistan is getting new American F-16s and Chinese fighters, while China assiduously builds new airbases in Tibet and south China.

*"We are ready with the flight evaluation trials (FET) report of the six foreign fighters in contention. Based on it, we are right now generating the staff evaluation report. Both will be submitted to defence ministry by this month-end,''* said IAF chief Air Chief Marshal P V Naik, in an exclusive interview to TOI on Thursday.

*The eagerly-awaited reports, which have evaluated the fighters on as many as 643 technical attributes after the gruelling field trials, will be followed by evaluation of offset proposals, opening of commercial bids and the final complex negotiations.*

The hotly-contested race to bag the lucrative MMRCA project, the largest such programme around the globe, is among F/A-18 `Super Hornet' and F-16 `Falcon' (both US), Gripen (Swedish), Rafale (French), MiG-35 (Russian) and Eurofighter Typhoon jets.

"We definitely need the MMRCA, LCA (the indigenous Tejas light combat aircraft) and FGFA (the fifth-generation fighter aircraft to be developed with Russia) without any delays to retain our combat edge,'' said ACM Naik.

"We also have signed deals for 230 Sukhoi-30MKI fighters (over 110 have been inducted) with Russia. Another 42 Sukhois will be ordered soon. We want at least 42 fighter squadrons by 2022,'' he added.

All eyes, of course, are on the MMRCA project. "The trials have been conducted in an exemplary, fair and professional manner. We have to be very transparent because the deal is very large,'' said the IAF chief.

*"The amount of data collated in our voluminous and exhaustive reports is phenomenal. They, in fact, can serve as a template to evaluate aircraft by any country,'' *he added.

As reported earlier, India is also likely to factor in its geo-strategic interests while deciding the MMRCA winner, with PM Manmohan Singh himself holding large defence deals must be leveraged to serve the country's larger diplomatic ends.

This will be the first time that India will take into account "life-cycle costs'' -- the cost of operating the fighters over a 40-year period, with 6,000 hours of flying -- rather than just pitching for the lowest bidder in a defence contract. While 18 jets will be bought off-the-shelf, the rest will be manufactured in India under transfer of technology to Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## KEETARP

Ministry of Defence, Govt of India

Note part is important 



> 17. Transfer of Technology (TOT)(If applicable). The Govt of India, Ministry of Defence is desirous of license production of (generic name of equipment) under TOT. Aspects of TOT which are to be fulfilled by the vendor are given at Appendix &#8216;L&#8217;. Govt reserves the right to negotiate TOT terms subsequently but the availability of TOT would be a pre-condition for any further procurements. If negotiations for TOT are not held as a part of the negotiations for equipment, then subsequent and separate TOT negotiations would continue from the stage where the equipment has been selected.
> 
> Note:-
> (The RFP in such cases would spell out the requirements of TOT depending upon the depth of the technology which is required, and whose range could cover technology for repair and overhaul; production from CKD/SKD kits and production from raw material and components level. Aspects which are to be included in the RFP in case production from CKD/SKD/IM kits are given at Appendix &#8216;L&#8217; to Schedule I. Care should be taken to spell out the selection criteria clearly. The nominated Production Agency (PA) for the receipt of technology will be closely associated in the preparation of RFP).






> Full TOT for the following systems for overhaul and repair is mandatory:
> (i) Air Frame including metallic and composite structures,
> empennage,
> (ii) Canopy, Radome, Special process, Casting & Forgings
> (iii) Flight Control Systems including FBW hardware and software
> (iv) Landing Gear system including all castings and forgings
> (v) Electrical and Avionics systems including Cockpit display systems
> (vi) Instruments, Communication and Navigation equipment, Power
> generation and distribution systems.
> (vii) Power Plant System including FADEC, Engine accessories,
> Turbine, NGV and compressor blades
> (viii) Hydraulic System including pumps, servo actuators along with its
> spool & sleeve
> (ix) Wheels and brakes system
> (x) Fuel System including in flight refuelling
> (xi) Environment system including OBOX, Pneumatic system
> (xii) Ejection Seat
> (xiii) Weapon Systems Integration, hardware and software.
> 
> ......................................
> 
> (c) The TOT shall be for &#8220;D&#8221; level maintenance to cover Airframe, Engines,
> Avionics and other aggregates. . It shall be comprehensive and shall cover all aspects of maintenance up to the lowest level which will enable the Maintenance Agency to, repair, overhaul, support and maintain the license product. TOT shall include the details that are needed to give disposition during the maintenance on deviation/ concession; modify/ upgrade the licence product and substitute parts and systems of the licence product as required by the certifying agency and the maintenance agency.






> (a) The TOT Documentation to be provided by the OEM shall be in English
> language in Electronic and hardcopy formats, and include documentation under the following heads:-
> 
> 
> (i) &#8220;D&#8221; level Maintenance documentation in ATA100/ATA iSpec
> 2200.
> (ii) Engineering documentation including special process.
> (iii) Software documentation including source code, build
> environment and utilities.
> (iv) Details of Special tools and Test equipments, Jigs & Fixtures.
> (v) OEM&#8217;s Standard Technical Manuals.
> (vi) Illustrated parts catalogue with price list.
> (vii) Source identification for BOIs and subcontracted items; standard
> parts consumables etc.
> (viii) Mandatory spares replacement lists and price catalogue for O,I,
> and D level maintenances.


----------



## Dash

Hi Prateek -



> xiii) Weapon Systems Integration, hardware and software.



This one actually includes all. have we mentioned any level of TOT in this case or we want full?. iam sure no body had agreed to this. Have they?


----------



## KEETARP

Software Part - 
Source code we keep talking of 



> 2. Software Documentation.
> (As per IEE 12207/MIL-STD-498)
> (a) Software Requirement Specification.
> (b) Interface design document.
> (c) Software change proposals.
> (d) Firmware support manual for embedded software.
> (e) Software environment/tools including third party procurements.
> (f) Software test procedure.
> (g) Software User Manual.
> (h) Software installation procedure including user settings of pass words, site
> specific data and any customization code/ key or encryption.
> (j) IV & V details (independent verification & validation).



Point no "h"


----------



## KEETARP

Dash , 
here is how hardware ToT will be required as per policy .



> To bring in a fair comparison between the TOT offered by various
> OEMs as also to have a fair assessment of the depth of technology being
> transferred, OEMs are required to identify each item (system / sub-system /
> assembly / sub-assembly / module / detail parts / PCB etc) in the product
> *structure under the following categories*, as may be applicable and provide
> information on the relative price for each of the items in the product structure as percentage of product cost





> (i) Category &#8211;1. Items, for which complete TOT, i.e., Engineering
> and Manufacturing documentation to enable the Production Agency
> carryout fabrication, assembly and test of the item from CKD/IM Kit
> level as the case may be, is being provided by the OEM, may be
> classified under the head &#8220;CTOT&#8221;.
> 
> (ii) Category &#8211;2. . Items which are manufactured by the OEM&#8217;s
> Subcontractors based on engineering documentation provided by the
> OEM and these Engineering Documentation are being provided by the
> OEM to the Production Agency, may also be classified under the head
> &#8220;CTOT&#8221;.
> 
> (iii) Category &#8211;3.
> (aa) Items in respect of which development and manufacture by
> the OEM has been subcontracted to its vendors/ sub-contractors
> based on only the procurement specifications provided by him and
> the OEM is not in a position to provide any additional
> technical information to the Production Agency except the
> procurement drawings/ specifications provided by him to his
> vendors/ sub-contractors, may be classified under the head
> Single Vendor &#8220;Sub-contract&#8221;. For the purpose of evaluating the
> depth of TOT, it will be presumed that the TOT in respect of these
> items for indigenous manufacture is not provided. OEM shall
> ensure authorization to its vendors/ sub-contractors to supply items,
> manufactured against OEM&#8217;s specifications to the Production
> Agency against its purchase orders.
> 
> (ab) However in such case, the OEM in collaboration with his
> vendor/ subcontractor, is able required to provide the Production
> Agency, maintenance Documentation, the recommended list of
> spares for repair and overhaul as may be applicable and
> maintenance training at the vendor&#8217;s/subcontractor&#8217;s premises, then
> such such vendor items are may be classified under the head
> `Limited TOT for maintenance support&#8217; , i.e, &#8220;M-ToT&#8221;.
> 
> (iv) Category &#8211; 4.
> (aa) Items including catalogue/ standard items sourced by the
> OEM against his procurement specifications as `Fully Finished&#8217;,
> may beare classified as &#8220;Bought Out&#8221;. Evidently TOT for such
> items for indigenous manufacture will not be available and the
> OEM will be able to provide only the procurement drawings/
> specifications, sources of supply. OEM has to ensure the
> availability of such items or its equivalents during the life cycle of
> the product. However, in respect of some of the selected items in
> this category, if the OEM, in collaboration with his vendor, is able
> to provide the Production Agency documentation for maintenance,
> recommended list of spares for repair and overhaul as may be
> applicable and maintenance training in the vendor&#8217;s premises, then
> such items may also be classified under the head `limited TOT
> for maintenance support&#8217; i.e. &#8220;M-ToT&#8221;.
> 
> (ab) OEM shall ensure periodical review of obsolescence,
> study of the Bill of Items (BOIs) and provide a retrieval scheme for
> a minimum period of 15/20 years from the production of last unit
> under the present proposal.
> 
> (v) Category &#8211;5. Some of the items for which the ownership of
> Design and Manufacturing Documentation is available with the OEM,
> but the OEM is not willing to transfer the technology to the Production
> Agency may be classified under the head `Proprietary&#8217; items. The list of
> such items shall be far and few and generally restricted to components/
> processes specifically developed by the OEM for the licensed product.
> No item in the product structure which is critical either from
> the technology point of view  from the point of view of significant value
> addition or which constitutes a significant relative percentage of the
> product cost (say > 10&#37, will be acceptable under the head &#8220;Proprietary
> items&#8221;. Further, at any stage during the life cycle of the Product, if the
> OEM intends to discontinue the production of Proprietary items, the
> complete technical documentation in respect of these items available
> with the OEM or his subcontractors will be passed on to the
> Production Agency to enable indigenous manufacture or establish
> alternative routes of meeting the requirement. Also, a base price for such
> items with an escalation formula for future supplies shall be given for
> slab quantities by OEM.
> 
> (l) The OEMs have to ensure that the depth of Technology being transferred
> shall enable the Production Agency achieve value addition commensurate with a
> minimum 30% of the relative cost of the licensed Product through indigenous
> manufacture in case of CKD kit based ToT and a minimum of 60% of the relative
> cost of the licensed product through indigenous manufacture in case of IM Kit
> based ToT (Percentage of indigenous value addition may vary based on the
> product).





> (a) The vendor not offering the key specified technologies for TOT for
> categories 1 and 2 and maintenance technologies for category 3 (Single source
> vendor assemblies) will not be eligible for further evaluation.
> 
> (b) In the technical bid, the depth of ToT being provided will be evaluated
> for comparison purpose as given below:-
> 
> (i) Relative Percentage of cost of Category 1 items } Not less than 60%
> (individual & composite) } after excluding the
> corresponding
> (ii) Relative Percentage of cost of Category 2 items} CKD kit cost
> (individual & composite) resulting in value
> addition of not less
> than 30%
> 
> 
> (iii) Relative Percentage of cost of Category 3 items } Not more
> (individual & composite) than 25%
> (iv) Relative Percentage of cost of Category 4 items }
> (individual & composite) }
> 
> (v) Relative Percentage of cost of Category 5 items } Not more
> (individual & composite) than 15%


----------



## anoopsaxena76

Archie said:


> Well u have a valid point up there ,
> However india cannot wait till 2018 for the induction of PAKFA ,
> You must be knowing that india operates 32-33 fighter squadron against a sanctioned strength of 39.5
> So we are already down by about 7
> Another thing is that it will be stupid to believe that mmrca will replace the mig21 , thats bogus



It will replace almost all of the MIG series, except the 29s, in phases. 



Archie said:


> Even the PAKFA is primarily an air superiority fighter , and you require a good mix of both air superiority and ground attack for an air force
> as far as india is concerned , i expect them to operate 500 air superiority , 200 ground attack and 140 interceptors in 2025 , making a squadron strength of 42



Well, I find the inclusion of F16, whichever block and F-18 which ever block simultaneously, surprising. F16 was not designed to be a multirole fighter. By being marketed as one, it does not become one. Likewise, France, no matter what one says, wouldn't ToT the Rafale to any country. Mig factory will have to work overtime to meet the deadline. That kind of gives me some creepy feeling as to what we will settle with. 

And let's not talk of LCA. If it flies over the India Gate on the republic day parade before I die, I will be generous to consider a success. Jokes apart, LCA, I do not want to bring into discussion because no one knows exactly what state it is in and for how long! And that ignorant lot may include the Defence Minister himself.



As to the cost issue that concerns me most, it is that because of lack of proper planning, we are ending up with this gap in technology. What had stopped us from fielding this tender, albeit with lesser numbers or in phases, 10 years back? Are we trying to do two wrongs here to make it a right? 126 aircrafts!!!!!! That's freakish money being spent on 20-30 years old technology. Whereas we have been running the bisons and the INS Viraat, since when? You are talking about we can not wait till 2018, I am sure even that will slip. What I do not understand is the amount of money we are going to spend on old technology for these 8 years <as per your quoted date>.

That beats logic.. unless there is a better reasoning. 

Regards,
Anoop


----------



## flanker143

any news of elimination ???


----------



## CONNAN

*India has been great for Boeing*


BY EDITOR AT 17 JULY, 2010, 2:37 PM

BY: Express TravelWorld

The Boeing Company and HCL Technologies have recently inaugurated a Center of Excellence (CoE) to support test and evaluation operations at Boeing. Dr Dinesh Keskar, president, Boeing India talks about the technology practices/processes they aim to develop at the Chennai-based CoE and the future plans of the company in India. By Sudipta Dev

Dr Dinesh Keskar
*
What is the function of Boeing Test and Evaluation?*

Boeing Test & Evaluation (BT&E) tests and validates all Boeing products to help ensure they are safe and reliable, operate as designed and meet the requirements of customers and regulatory agencies around the world. Test and validation are vital activities to designing and delivering new products to customers. In addition to conducting flight tests, BT&E tests a broad range of products in more than 250 test environments such as wind tunnels, icing tunnels, lightning labs, propulsion labs, acoustic labs and flight simulators.
*
What are the reasons that led to setting up of the CoE in India?
*
Boeing and HCL has a close relationship for the past five years. Due to their quality of service, HCL was selected to create robust engineering application tools, which will enable BT&E to manage its IT systems more efficiently.

*Do you have similar CoEs in other countries? Where?*

As the world&#8217;s leading aerospace company and the largest manufacturer of commercial jetliners and military aircraft combined, Boeing has many partners across the globe. We have strategic partnerships in China, Russia, Canada, and India, among others. These partnerships allow Boeing to leverage diverse technology and skills under agreements that are similar to our agreement with HCL, although they are known by different names.

*Which technology practices /processes do you aim to develop at the CoE?*

The facility will provide engineering applications design, development and support for applications that BT&E will use. BT&E provides effective and efficient test and evaluation services that support business programs across Boeing.

*What kind of benchmarks do you aim to set?*

Our goal in creating a center of excellence in India is to leverage the sound technical capability that India offers to support the requirement for engineering application, design, development and support for BT&E.

*Why have you chosen HCL as a technology partner for your CoE?
*
We selected HCL because of their deep understanding of the global aerospace and defence industry and their proven expertise in implementing large, complex projects in the aviation sector.

*What are your future plans in India?*

India holds a unique status for us. Both the aviation and defence markets are significant and the India industry has huge potential. Boeing values India as a key aerospace partner and we are enhancing our strong, long-standing relationship with Indian government and industry. The pace and depth of our engagement with Indian industry through products, services and partnership has increased in recent years. Boeing is pursuing a &#8216;One Partnership&#8217; integrated strategy to become India&#8217;s preferred aerospace and defence partner and provider. The advantages and benefits we can offer the customer by pulling together all the talent, technology, capabilities and products from the commercial and defence sides of Boeing is unmatched by any other company in the world.

But before that, Boeing has had a long relationship with India. We started our journey here with the DC 3 about six decades ago and, over the time, we have gradually got success after success by putting the 707&#8217;s into India, then the 747&#8217;s, now the 777&#8217;s and the very latest 787 will be introduced in India next year. So it&#8217;s been a long and fruitful time here. In the last five years, India has grown to new heights and with the better relationship between the US and Indian governments, we are now able to participate in the defence arena. *We have already achieved success in the area of P8I, recently C-17&#8217;s and are now involved in the large fighter competition where F-A/18 super hornet is our candidate. India also has the unique opportunity of building a strong supply base from here to the world. We are collaborating with the India industry to grow the ecosystem. While manufacturing is picking up, India was always known for software. We are producing and buying a lot of things from them and other software companies like Wipro, Infosys, HCL, TCS, which are big name companies in India and this is a two way thing that we are doing. In March of last year, we opened a research centre in Bengaluru which has been a good success, the former president of India, Dr APJ Abdul Kalam, visited it and was pleased, so I think India has been great for Boeing and Boeing has come a long way in India over the last 60 years.*


----------



## CONNAN

*IAF report on MMRCA deal &#8216;by July-end&#8217;*

IAF report on MMRCA deal ?by July-end&#8217;

BY EDITOR AT 17 JULY, 2010, 2:38 PM

BY: Thehindu.com

The evaluation report of the Indian Air Force (IAF) for the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) deal will be submitted to the Defence Ministry by the end of July, confirmed Chief of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal P.V. Naik. He said the contract was likely to be signed this year.

Speaking at the &#8216;DARE Raising Day&#8217; of the Defence Avionics Research Establishment (DARE) here on Friday, Mr. Naik said the response to the contending global fighters had been positive. He said the upgrading of SU-30 aircraft &#8220;is well on track.&#8221;

Chinese air base

Reacting to reports of China building an air base in Tibet, he said it was a matter of concern and said that the IAF was following the developments. The Air Chief Marshal spoke about the critical role DARE played in the IAF because of the close relationship between technology and electronic warfare. Hailing Bangalore as an epicentre of intelligence, he stressed on cutting-edge technology and punctual delivery being the most important functions of organisations such as DARE.

Naming obsolescence and technological gap as the main challenges faced at present, he said the IAF was looking forward to more fighter aircraft and helicopter projects from DARE.

Earlier, U.K. Revankar, Director, DARE, recalled the successes of the organisation &#8212; MiG-27 for which it had supplied avionics, Tarang RWR system, the Missile Approach Warning System and Multi-Sensor Warning System on AVRO and now on Cheetah helicopters and said they were now working on MiG-29, Dual Colour Missile Approach Warning System, and Light Weight EW Suite for helicopters.

G. Elangovan, Chief Controller of Research and Development, suggested that the IAF should make its requirements and operational capabilities known so that organisations could work on the given parameters.

30 employees were awarded for achievements in eight categories on the occasion.


----------



## SQ8

Hope the Gripen or the SH wins.. I love them in the IAF scheme.


----------



## CONNAN

*126 fighter jet deal: Tests over, IAF set to announce winner*

126 fighter jet deal: Tests over, IAF set to announce winner-Politics/Nation-News-The Economic Times

*17 Jul 2010, 0052 hrs IST,TNN*

NEW DELHI: Even as the Americans, Europeans and Russians jostle to bag the &#8216;&#8216; mother of all defence deals&#8217;&#8217; , India too is now pressing the throttle to ensure the contract to acquire 126 new fighters under the Rs 42,000-crore medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) project is inked by mid-2011 . &#8220;We will be signing the contract within a year. The flight evaluation report on the bidding aircraft will be ready by this month-end ,&#8221; Air Chief Marshal P V Naik said. 

The IAF, after all, wants to induct the first lot of these 126 fighters by 2014 to retain its combat edge. It is left with just 32 fighter squadrons (each has 12 to 18 jets) at present , down from the &#8216;&#8216; sanctioned&#8217; &#8217; strength of 39.5 squadrons. This when Pakistan is getting new American F-16 s and Chinese fighters , while China assiduously builds new airbases in Tibet and south China. 

&#8216;&#8216; We are ready with the flight evaluation trials (FET) report of the six foreign fighters in contention. Based on it, we are right now generating the staff evaluation report. Both will be submitted to defence ministry by this monthend ,&#8217;&#8217; said IAF chief Air Chief Marshal P V Naik, in an exclusive interview to TOI. The eagerly-awaited reports, which have evaluated the fighters on as many as 643 technical attributes after gruelling field trials, will be followed by evaluation of offset proposals, opening of commercial bids and the final complex negotiations. 

The hotly-contested race to bag the lucrative MMRCA project, the largest such programme around the globe, is among F/A-18 &#8216;Super Hornet&#8217; and F-16 &#8216;Falcon&#8217; (both US), Gripen (Swedish), Rafale (French), MiG-35 (Russian) and Eurofighter Typhoon jets. 

&#8216;&#8216; We definitely need the MMRCA, LCA (the indigenous Tejas light combat aircraft ) and FGFA (the fifth-generation fighter aircraft to be developed with Russia) without any delays to retain our combat edge,&#8217;&#8217; said ACM Naik. &#8216;&#8216; We also have signed deals for 230 Sukhoi-30 MKI fighters (over 110 have been inducted) with Russia. Another 42 Sukhois will be ordered soon. We want at least 42 fighter squadrons by 2022,&#8217;&#8217; he added. 

All eyes, of course, are on the MMRCA project. &#8220;The trials have been conducted in an exemplary, fair and professional manner. We have to be very transparent because the deal is very large,&#8217;&#8217; said the IAF chief. &#8216;&#8216;The amount of data collated in our voluminous and exhaustive reports is phenomenal. They, in fact, can serve as a template to evaluate aircraft by any country,&#8217;&#8217; he added. 

As reported earlier, India is also likely to factor in its geostrategic interests while deciding the MMRCA winner, with PM Manmohan Singh himself holding that large defence deals must be leveraged to serve the country&#8217;s larger diplomatic ends.


----------



## SQ8

Will it be available to the general public?
Just the basic who won in the trials?


----------



## anoopsaxena76

santro said:


> Will it be available to the general public?
> Just the basic who won in the trials?



I would be surprised if there were to be a clean winner in "only" the trials. Since they were conducted under various different conditions, some would have performed better in some conditions and vice versa. 

Regards,
Anoop.


----------



## CONNAN

santro said:


> Will it be available to the general public?
> Just the basic who won in the trials?



as far as i think it will be all over the news


----------



## Iggy

But what about weapon trials??is it complete??i mean it was supposed to be done in their respective countries right??


----------



## SpArK

643 technical attributes after gruelling field trials


----------



## trident2010

seiko said:


> But what about weapon trials??is it complete??i mean it was supposed to be done in their respective countries right??



Weapons trials were finished few months ago. Now waiting for shortlisting


----------



## Dark Angel

My money is on Rafale


----------



## Lord Snow

personally i wud go fr the mig 35.......eurofighter is a better fighter jet by far but its not multi role (poor ground attack capability).... grippen has american components and will kill lca...... american planes makes us prone to sanctions.....rafale seems great on paper but the fact that it has no customers seems a bit ominous to me (like a hidden defect in the plane)


----------



## CONNAN

*BY EDITOR AT 19 JULY, 2010, 1:17 PM

BY: StratPost
*
The first spurts of information on the results of the trials conducted by the Indian Air Force (IAF) for its 126 Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) tender are starting to trickle out.

A confident Bernhard Gerwart, Chief Executive Officer (CEO) of Military Air Systems at EADS Defence & Security, mingled with reporters in an informal chat with reporters in New Delhi on Tuesday and told them, I believe we are compliant with all the requests that they have made. Yesterday, I had some meetings with representatives of the IAF and the MoD (Ministry of Defense) and, personally, I left with the impression that we had done well in the flight trials.

But Herr Gerwert did offer a caveat, saying, Mind you its just a feeling, while pointing out the IAF had made no official statement to him.

At any rate he confirmed separately to StratPost, he would be sleeping easier after getting these vibes. While this is hardly definitive confirmation of the Eurofighter Typhoon having performed well in the trials from the perspective of the IAF, it is perhaps indicative of the feedback given by the IAF to representatives of the company.

And while Gerwert didnt know if the IAF would come up with a short list or a long list, the issue of a down select remains open to question. It remains unclear whether any possible shortlist issued by the IAF would merely be an indication of preference or would actually result in the elimination of any of the contestants.

German Ambassador to India, Thomas Matussek, too, weighed in. We have to see this in the geo-strategic context. Your security is our security, he said. Did he think that if the MMRCA comes down to being a political decision, the four-European nations backing EADS would have the political capital to compete with the US? The simple answer is yes. Were easily on the same par as the United States, he said.

The IAF is expected to submit its report on its evaluation of the six aircraft imminently, and industry watchers have been actively trying to get a sense of how it will play out. With the IAF enforcing a robust lockdown on any seepage of information so long as the report remains in their domain, defense journalists have been reduced to speculation on the play-out of the tender process.

Not surprisingly, reporters are straining their eyes trying to read between the lines of the statements issued by personalities such as Herr Gerwert and cryptic comments of IAF officers in private conversation, in the absence of any official indications.

There are some who argue that it would be in the interest of the IAF to indicate the results of the trials and its preferences, to make sure their views are not deviated from when the matter is laid before the Ministry of Defense. There are others who think this would be irrelevant, anticipating the IAF to indicate no clear preference one way or the other. Boeings F/A-18 Super Hornet, Lockheed Martins F-16, Saabs Gripen IN, Dassaults Rafale and the MiG-35 are the other aircraft competing in the tender.

But IAF officials admit to being eminently aware of the possibility of the conclusions of the report becoming public, once it is submitted to the ministry. And all concerned agree, some interesting times lie ahead, when that happens.


----------



## sancho

PRATEEK said:


> How come you are sure that they won't



I never said it will never, I said it is not integrated, or on order now, nor is the integration funded for T3 so far and that is the complete opposite of DDM NG in Rafale.




PRATEEK said:


> So does other MRCA jet , no one is active all are Passive detectors.
> 
> this enhanced SA is by ---- that DDM-NG infrared MAWS of SPECTRA , correct



See, you still didn't understand that Spectra even now offers clear advantages in SA to other systems and with the addition of DDM NG will be even improved to a similar level as F35s EW + EO DAS.
Once again detection of a threat and countering it with Chaf, Flares, or jamming is one thing, but enhanced SA by gathering several different signals (using Spectra sensors as well as RBE 2, FSO, or MICA IR) and the capability to target and cuing of weapons in passive mode, makes it much more than a normal EWS.




PRATEEK said:


> In future if developed without any problems ( F35 and A400....) , may be offered to India .
> By the way IAF evaluation team evaluated aircraft with 2009 tech on-board .



Not sure what F35 and A400 has to do with Dassault, or Sagem, but DDM NG is on offer for export from 2012 on, also the Rafale that came to India had a working AESA on board, so for sure not 2009 techs only!




PRATEEK said:


> So does Gripen , Mig35 , Eurofighter . SAAB integrates any customer's choice free of cost - Did it for South Africa . That's why widest range of weapons .



Again, out of context! The point was that radar source codes will be an advantage in strike missions and yes others offer that advantage too, but where is the gain if we can modify the radar, but the fighter is not useful in strike?
Mig 35 has no cruise missile and can only carry limited heavy A2G loads, Gripen NG as I mentioned before is limited in range, EF has nothing but some LGBs yet.
Please mate, you can't really believe that these fighters will offer any comparable A2G performance to Rafale, or F18SH and the Rafale simply offers these additional advantages over F18SH too. 




PRATEEK said:


> Sorry to say but F16 also have them , nothing like future possibility in case for f16 .
> Eurofighter also have CFT programe


 Yes and I stated that before too, so I never took it as an advantage for Rafale only right?
But you asked for advantages compared to F18SH and here the CFTs could be an advantage. EF has some studies and windtunnel models, but that's it for now.




PRATEEK said:


> F18 best striker out flying .



That's what I said too, but the restrictions makes it less useful for us, while Rafale even with 2nd best A2G performance, offers more with ToT, source codes and customisation.




PRATEEK said:


> No one knows more than SAGEM
> CEP by SAGEM is 10m



Exactly and what does the source from the Sagem that *you* posted say?



> will hit with a *10m accuracy with the inertial/GPS all-weather version *and *only a few meter accuracy with the night/day infrared terminal guidance version*.



So the GPS version has 10m CEP, while the IR version is by far better, just as I told you.



PRATEEK said:


> No , not a single Rafale in service has uprated engine .



I didn't said in service, I said they were fielded in the Swiss trials, but they are on order for the F3 upgrade that France will have from 2012 onwards, that Swiss, Brasil, Kuwait and we can have if we buy Rafale. Go to this thread, there were several reports about the M88 2-E4 upgrade.



PRATEEK said:


> There is a reason why UAE wants new engine and not uprated one , why ??



Because they want to use the Rafale as a long range heavy strike fighter (if needed against Iran), that's why they also want even extreem heavy weapon configs (3 Scalp missiles, 2 2000l tanks and 6 AAMs, possibly even the CFTs, which would be a load of 7,8t + CFTs!), or want to integrate SL-AMMER into the Rafale too.
For A2A the Rafale don't need the M88-3 as it proved against EF and F22 in the same hot climate region.


----------



## sancho

PRATEEK said:


> That is the biggest mistake everyone makes when they try to downplay F15/Su30 like fighter with comparison to others .
> 
> So if you compare armed su30 v armed rafale in A2A detection by hostile radar
> 
> *Contribution mathematically* is 1.32 by Rafale(3m2 RCS) and 1.85 by su30 (12m2 RCS) by the fourth root of respective RCS as per above radar equation .
> Keep all parameters same , multiply by same 100 in both factors .
> *Range for Rafale comes 132 , while range for su30 comes 185 *.




So because you calculated somehow these figures, the MKI will only be detected at around 50Km more than Rafale? 

Lets compare it to real figures!

Saabs official brochure of the Erieye AWACS states that it will detect fighters (which are normally around 5m2) over 300Km distances, Phalcon AWACS is often quoted with over 400Km.

Zhuk ME is able to detect 5m2 rargets at 120Km only, AGP 68 offers similar ranges.

Just a few examples where you can see, that your figures doesn't fit to real radar detection figures! If you compare your figure for a fully loaded Rafale (3m2) with the radar detections of those fighter radars, such a Rafale would be detected only in 100Km, or less. 

Don't take it offensively, but I have some doubts about your calculation, especially about when a 4 times bigger target will be detected.
Your conclusion is based on the same theoretical figures, so doesn't fit to real estimations anyway and it's kind of funny that you expect any MMRCA to be as costly as F22. 




PRATEEK said:


> RCS point is moot and flawed ,
> *Eurofighter and Gripen have better RCS* than Rafale and more BVR capable with AIM120c7 and of course with HMS



Your opinion, or backed up by any source? Hopfully not the study sponserd by swedish armed forces? 




PRATEEK said:


> cherry picking from blogs



Once again, news reports with sources!

ISTO&#201; Independente - Economia & Neg&#243;cios

RING - Capitaine Romain, pilote de Rafale en Afghanistan




PRATEEK said:


> Just to show Flaws -
> No mention of ROE( Engagement rules , whether strong point of F18 were neutralized by rules - *Like just 50kms range allowed with AIM120 to make it favorable to French wrt to MICA + Radar were in training mode to neutralize APG-79 which is strongest point of F18*




Why you start speculating again, if that would be the case, it would have been easy for the pilot to blame it on the ROEs, instead of stating that Rafale were hard to detect, but he didn't! 

*Hard to swallow APG79 AESA on F18 failed in comparison to PESA-RBE of Rafale*
Third - 10KW antennae of APG79 which can detect 1m2 RCS at more than 120+Kms failed to detect 2m2 Rafale . [/QUOTE] 

That's what I meant, if you don't belive it ok, but don't deny it and start speculations, because that makes you biased. Try to counter it with facts and other sources! 




PRATEEK said:


> Does it imply Sweden,UK,Germany who are developers and partners will get late than UAE ( if at all deal finalizes this year)



It means that those who will fund the integration first, will get it at first! All they did so far, were tests in the development of the missile, not integration of the missile to any of those fighters. All Meteor members are planing with the missiles only around 2014/15 and later, but if the development ends soon and UAE is ready to spend the money for fast integration, they might get it around 2013 as they want.
Also who told you that IAF would buy Aim 120 for Gripen, or EF for such a short period of time till Meteor is available, instead of integrating Astra, or using R77 at Gripens? Aim 120 can't be used from any other fighter in the fleet, so would be obsolete when Meteor is available. MICA EM instead will be used by Mirage 2000 till 2025 anyway, just like Astra in several other IAF fighters.
So in any case, isn't it more likely that they will try to integrate Astra in all those Eurocanards, as an alternative besides Meteor and a stop gap till Meteor is available? 




PRATEEK said:


> You happily quote - Rafale did this , did that , but don't tell when Rafale lose .
> In Red-Flag2008 as Video of Col debriefing says - French were not engaging/taking shot but only spying out there .
> But you quote "rafale performed excellent in Red-Flag " not that video .
> A video is better proof than some blog/forum statements by some random person
> 
> LOL, now you really run out of argument if you take that redflag video as a reliable source. Just look how many mistakes that pilot made about the MKI, BISONs and so on and than jugde about his reliability on Rafale.
> Btw, the video doesn't say anything that Rafale lost, neither did I ever hide Rafales down sides. If so, I would have posted that it beat the F18 6times and not that it lost also 2 times, or that it's main downside is cost, or that it don't has HMS yet.
> But as I always said, it is still the fighter with the most advantages, from different point of views!
> 
> And once again, I don't post just statements from forums, most of the posts I provided are news reports, sometimes even with interviews of the pilots. I don't claim things like that and try always to give sources. *So please stop with this false claims!*
> 
> Really interesting infos, especially about the F16 B60s, that shows that it uses the same interfereometry techs as Spectra for passive locating targets.
> The question that I have are, can the B60 EWS use any AAMs and will the F16IN have the same techs in the EWS? The one for B60 was specially developed for UAE from Northrop Grumman, while F16IN will have an EWS from Raytheon.
> 
> Also, just as you said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How this is done in Rafale -
> Ranging of threats in Rafale can be done by either SPECTRA alone + or in combination with Laser-Range-Finder of FSO / or RBE radar .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But your source for the F18 only states that the RWR can detect ground radars and give guidance to HARM, not like Spectra to locate targets and cue weapons on them. So the F18SH is limited to HARM only, also F18SH has no integrated IRST to cue passively, which means to cue missiles, it has no other option than the radar itself ( which is active of course), or to carry the IRST-fuel tank on the centerline station.
Click to expand...


----------



## sancho

connanxlrc1000 said:


> Selex Galileo is already working towards integrating an AESA array with the Eurofighter for the UK under a technology demonstration programme worth around £20 million ($30 million). *A modified aircraft is expected to fly in 2013 under the initiative*.



I really would be surprised it the EF will be shortlisted, when it don't have an operational AESA radar by the time we should get the first fighters. AESA is a key requirement and if the EF can't offer it, it must be disqualified from the competition.
It was reported that they will announce details about the tranche 3 upgrade tomorrow in Farnborough, will be interesting to see what they will come up with and when it will be available.


----------



## KEETARP

> enhanced SA by gathering several different signals (using Spectra sensors as well as RBE 2, FSO, or MICA IR) and the capability to target and cuing of weapons in passive mode, makes it much more than a normal EWS.



Sancho , either you didn't bother to read my post or you left imp lines . Otherwise you won't have asked the question .

For last time I am posting again to show you how Passive targeting is done by others . Better go thru that post .



> Northrop Grumman "has additionally developed the LR-105 RWR and *precision targeting system* for the F-16 Block 60. The LR-105 is a highly modified adaptation of the LR-100 electronic support measures (ESM) system, which combines the NexGen digital receiver chipset with Litton's patented Long Baseline Interferometer passive geolocation technology".





> The Falcon Edge provides radar warning, jamming, *and emitter targeting*. As in the case of the F/A-22 and JSF, the passive EW system helps to locate and identify airborne and surface targets and can locate a surface target in distance as well as bearing


For F18 



> SP (self-protect) mode is an automatic targeting mode of the HARM. When the HARM SP mode is selected and the
> Superhornet's EW system detects that a ground-based radar is guiding a missile at your aircraft, a HARM will automatically be selected for firing and the intended target will be boxed on the HUD and in the SMS MDI display. No
> other emitters will appear in the MDI. The next press of the weapon pickle button will release a HARM.


Period ...



> so for sure not 2009 techs only!


Plz provide a link , showing IAF tested DDM-NG in 2009 . 
If you don't have any proof then stop bringing 2012 prediction in current scenario. To add 2012 only when there are no delays like A400/F35/Meteor otherwise ........ that's why A400 .



> Again, out of context!


Why out of context , you mean to say Russia , Sweden , Euro.. won't provide source codes .



> but the fighter is not useful in strike?


Says who - You ?? . 
Ask anyone in IAF they will tell you whether Mig35/Gripen are useful in strike or not ( mark your words "useful" )



> *Mig 35 has no cruise missile* and can only carry limited heavy A2G loads, Gripen NG as I mentioned before is limited in range,



Ohh , "Mig35 has no cruise missile". 
Sancho atleast know about our country's weapon system / jets











Do you see that thing lying in front of Mig29K 
X/KH-59 ( Zoom the figure to see its written )
Then read it on net , 


> The Kh-59 Ovod (Russian: &#1061;-59 &#1054;&#1074;&#1086;&#1076; 'Gadfly'; AS-13 'Kingbolt') is a Russian TV-guided cruise missile with a two-stage solid-fuel propulsion system and 115 km range. The Kh-59M Ovod-M (AS-18 'Kazoo') is a variant with a bigger warhead and turbojet engine





> can only carry limited heavy A2G loads, Gripen NG as I mentioned before is limited in range,



Again , just your assumption and belief . 
*Do you know Range+Weapon load what IAF is asking in MRCA .*
Any one *completely insane* will compare combat load of Gripen with F18 , bcoz of two different classes .

Just to inform , Gripen NG carries 7200Kg of combat load and Ferry range is more than 2220N-miles.( No refuel )




2200NM without in air refueling covers all the threats of India , until we want to strike Pacific . 



> carry limited heavy A2G loads


Mig 35 A2G weapons are much more flexible / more options than every other jet 

Russian options ------
- A2S missiles 
Kh59 
Kh38
Kh47
Kh-29
Kh31E/P 

Israel 
-A2S Missile 
Popeye lite ( Currently in service on Mirage + MKI )
LGB kits 
MPK kits ( both in service )

Bombs ..........
Russia
KAB-1500LG-F-E ( *Paveway analogue*)
KAB-500/1500 SE (*JDAM analogue with GLONASS security unlike GPS*)
'Bazalt' PBK-500U (*the functional JSOW analog*)
MPK modules for broad spectrum of bombs (JDAM's functional analog).
Iron bombs 
Dumb bombs 

Video( must see )







> But you asked for advantages compared to F18SH and here the CFTs could be an advantage


ohhh , 
F18 has more internal fuel on board than Rafale+more range hmmmmmm, dosen't need extra tanks . 
Add A2A refueling no need to waste on CFT . If at all CFT is certified and cleared operational .



> o the GPS version has 10m CEP, while the IR version is by far better, just as I told you


Talking of IR-AASM , plz let me know what CEP IR-JDAM has . 
And then we will discuss why France has soooo cheap weapons while US has sooo costly weapons . 



> I didn't said in service, I said they were fielded in the Swiss trials, but they are on order for the F3 upgrade that France will have from 2012 onwards, that Swiss, Brasil, Kuwait and we can have if we buy Rafale. Go to this thread, there were several reports about the M88 2-E4 upgrade


Fine , then we will continue discussion in 2012 when M88 and DDm-NG are complete ( If at all , and no delay ) . Till then no Future plz 



> For A2A the Rafale don't need the M88-3 as it proved against EF and F22 in the same hot climate region


What F22 v Rafale , 
where Rafale beat F22 six times and F22 couldn't detect Rafale . 
Plz post that , news/article/USAF statement
I am sure someone won't agree


----------



## KEETARP

> So because you calculated somehow these figures, the MKI will only be detected at around 50Km more than Rafale?
> 
> Lets compare it to real figures!
> 
> Saabs official brochure of the Erieye AWACS states that it will detect fighters (which are normally around 5m2) over 300Km distances, Phalcon AWACS is often quoted with over 400Km.
> 
> Zhuk ME is able to detect 5m2 rargets at 120Km only, AGP 68 offers similar ranges.
> 
> Just a few examples where you can see, that your figures doesn't fit to real radar detection figures! If you compare your figure for a fully loaded Rafale (3m2) with the radar detections of those fighter radars, such a Rafale would be detected only in 100Km, or less.
> 
> Don't take it offensively, but I have some doubts about your calculation, especially about when a 4 times bigger target will be detected.
> Your conclusion is based on the same theoretical figures, so doesn't fit to real estimations anyway and it's kind of funny that you expect any MMRCA to be as costly as F22.



Did you even go thru that calculation 

One is that equation used wrong - No its from literature , RCS varies as 1/4th root for detection 






Two - did you see I multiplied both factors by 100 arbitrarily , 
for Eriye/Phalcon that 100 could be anything ranging from 100 to 500 depending upon Beam power .
Multiply 1.32 by 300 and 1.85 by 300 
Rafale gets detected at 396 , Su30 at 555 . That should satisfy your Ego about Rafale .
Before claiming calculation wrong , bother to read it . 

Still , you don't explain 
Are you suggesting - Rafale will remain hidden from Erieye/F16 till 60 kms of them ??? AWACS won't detect them 
Does MICA have range like AIM120? r77
Does Rafale have Helmet mounted HMS 
Does Rafale carry powerful radar like Bars/Captor/Apg79/Apg80



> our opinion, or backed up by any source? Hopfully not the study sponserd by swedish armed forces?



Really , i have posted *RCS certificate* for Gripen 3 times on defence.pk as o.1m2 .

Let's see your source for Rafale's RCS , should be atleast certificate like Gripen .



> Try to counter it with facts and other sources!


You mean to say 
APG79 stronger than PESA RBE on Rafale* is not fact *
AIM120 has bigger range than MICA *is not fact *

If you mean above , tell me . I will post enough sources . 



> UAE is ready to spend the money for fast integration


Would like to see the link for UAE funding METEOR 



> neither did I ever hide Rafales down sides


Of course you did , from post one you are not ready to accept its downside.
You claim that it has only Pros but no cons 

-*When I showed it lacks HARM* - You justify targeting by bombs is much more precise ( F18 carry both HARM as well as JDAM - Better anyways )
-*French weapons are costly* - No reply , indirectly stating Indian weapons will be integrated ( So can others )
-*No HMS* - waiting for reply , may be i would learn HMS is waste according to French blogs 
-*MICA lacks Range* - waiting for reply , armed RCS will be small to fool Eriye is moot 



> Really interesting infos, especially about the F16 B60s, that shows that it uses the same interfereometry techs as Spectra for passive locating targets.
> The question that I have are, can the B60 EWS use any AAMs and will the F16IN have the same techs in the EWS? The one for B60 was specially developed for UAE from Northrop Grumman, while F16IN will have an EWS from Raytheon.
> 
> Also, just as you said:
> 
> Quote:
> How this is done in Rafale -
> Ranging of threats in Rafale can be done by either SPECTRA alone + or in combination with Laser-Range-Finder of FSO / or RBE radar .
> But your source for the F18 only states that the RWR can detect ground radars and give guidance to HARM, not like Spectra to locate targets and cue weapons on them. So the F18SH is limited to HARM only, also F18SH has no integrated IRST to cue passively, which means to cue missiles, it has no other option than the radar itself ( which is active of course), or to carry the IRST-fuel tank on the centerline station.



Did you bother to go thru that post , 

EVERY NEW GEN RWR uses Inferometric technique/Triangulation that's why they are not called RWR any more but Electronic support measures (ESM).

Read the link again - 



> Radar Warning Receivers: The Digital Revolution
> by Dave Adamy
> 
> Radar warning receivers (RWRs) have been an important part of electronic warfare (EW) since the Vietnam War. They have been repeatedly upgraded to meet new threats, but they still look and work a lot like the original systems. The threats are still changing, causing the RWRs to change with them; but the main driver for change now is the increasingly complex tasks we want these systems to perform.
> 
> WHAT IS AN RWR?
> 
> An RWR is a specialized receiving system used to identify, locate and display threat radar signals very quickly. Although mostly associated with aircraft, RWRs also protect ships and ground-mobile assets. The RWR typically has an instantaneous 360&#176; field of view and covers the whole radar-threat spectrum quickly enough to receive the first beam of a radar signal to reach the protected platform. Its processing only identifies known threat signals from a threat-parameter-identification table. It is optimized for rapid data throughput, collecting only enough data and performing only enough processing to identify the threat type unambiguously. It typically has enough sensitivity to receive main-beam transmissions and enough angle-of-arrival accuracy to support situational awareness in a cockpit and to hand off threats to a jammer.
> 
> The RWR must have a 100- percent probability of intercept (POI), or very nearly 100-percent POI, for all threat-signal types it is expected to encounter. POI in this case means the ability to receive and display a signal within a very short time (typically about one second) starting when the first energy (above the sensitivity threshold) from that signal reaches the location of the protected platform.
> 
> AN RWR IS NOT AN ESM SYSTEM (YET)
> 
> Fig 1 Most RWRs operate from four or more cavity-backed spiral (or similar) antennas with their boresights aimed symmetrically around the protected platform.
> 
> An electronic-support-measures (ESM) system is different from an RWR in that the ESM system typically has more sensitivity and greater location accuracy. However, the main difference is that an ESM system performs more detailed analysis on received signals. It will typically measure and record all of the signal parameters and may also have some sort of human intervention - making the ESM system closer to an electronics-intelligence (ELINT) system. It also typically has less than 100-percent POI (by the RWR definition). The ESM system typically receives threat signals in their side lobes, rather than requiring illumination from the main beams. It knows the location of threat emitters with enough accuracy to hand off that information to another platform or to support weapon targeting.
> 
> Cliff Moody of the Information Warfare Battle Lab (Kelly AFB, San Antonio, TX) expressed the opinion that RWR-system users want to convert RWRs to ESM systems while still retaining the RWR capability. This is a view shared by most of the leaders in the RWR field interviewed for this article. A recent study in the UK showed that the RWR function cannot be adequately performed by existing ESM systems, so the clear implication is that both RWR and ESM systems will require performance enhancements to perform both jobs. It seems very clear that no-one is willing to back off on RWR performance requirements to gain the additional ESM capabilities, since one hit from an unseen weapon can ruin your whole day.
> 
> NEW REQUIREMENTS
> 
> The changes in RWR requirements are driven by new threats, but more importantly from additional operational functionality that users would like to get from RWRs. The primary desired changes are as follows:
> enough sensitivity to receive all threats from their side-lobe effective radiated power (ERP), beyond the lethal range of the weapons they control;
> direction-finding (DF) accuracy adequate to hand off threat location to another friendly platform;
> determination of the number of pulse-Doppler radars present and discrimination of friendly emitters from enemy emitters;
> specific-emitter tracking (SET) or, preferably, specific-emitter identification (SEI); and
> detection and location of low- probability-of-intercept ( LPI ) radars.



Enough said , but still I would use next post .


----------



## KEETARP

> also F18SH has no integrated IRST to cue passively, which means to cue missiles, it has no other option than the radar itself ( which is active of course), or to carry the IRST-fuel tank on the centerline station.



Why bring IRST into this suddenly ??????

Since you raised question about F18 Direction Finding capability passively



> The AN/ALR-67(V)3 Advanced Special Receiver *(ASR)* is a radar warning receiver (RWR) . The ASR is a radar warning receiver (RWR) intended to supersede the AN/ALR-67E(v)2





> The ASR collection categories include: high band pulse (2-40 GHz); high band continuous wave; low band pulse (less than 2 GHz); and millimeter wave MMW (28-40 GHz). The ASR provides signal detection, direction finding, and identification of radio frequency (RF) and MMW threat emitters including: scanning, pulse Doppler and continuous wave tracking, acquisition and early warning radars, and missile guidance.



I don't see after seeing those red highlighted part , I need to explain any more .

For rest read this link , plz 
http://www.airforce-technology.com/features/feature1280/

For TYPHOON cueing better read this 

Eurofighter Typhoon - Demon or Lemon?

I am posting quote from above link 



> An ESM is integrated into the Defensive Aids SubSystem (DASS), and could be employed as a *passive targeting tool in engagements, in addition to its basic function as a sensitive long range RWR*. The antenna packages are in the wingtip pods.
> The DASS package is comprehensive, incorporating the ESM/RWR, a MAWS, a forward sector Laser Warning Receiver (RAF), expendables, DECM and an optical fibre towed decoy. This is a competitive package by any measure, against its US contemporaries.



As far as I see Tornado did passive cueing , HARM firing .
When official brochure shows HARM on Typhoon , I am sure they are using atleast contemporary RWR if they have brains .
*( Their brochure shows RWR as ESM and with direction finding capability see below + just to add BAE built Falcon-Edge direction finding antennas for F16 and is developer of DASS )* 










*I am sure you won't be knowing RWR on MKI is an ESM and provides cueing for KH58/31 missile 
I have Janes weekly of 2007 , let me search it in drawer to scan upload it* .




Here it is 




Red part


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## trident2010

^^^ Why don't you both the guys talk on phone and sort out this matter once for all? Much easier for you and for us.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## KEETARP

trident2010 said:


> ^^^ Why don't you both the guys talk on phone and sort out this matter once for all? Much easier for you and for us.



Trident
Nice suggestion IMO. Will look thru if possible . 

I must apologize if our posts made your life difficult . You can ignore them and post your's . No restriction i guess


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## sancho

Back again...



PRATEEK said:


> Plz provide a link , showing IAF tested DDM-NG in 2009 .
> If you don't have any proof then stop bringing 2012 prediction in current scenario. To add 2012 only when there are no delays like A400/F35/Meteor otherwise ........ that's why A400 .


 now I get you, believe what you want, but I see the facts and they are that Rafale is the most developed and ready fighter from Europe, which will be available with all capabilities that are on offer for us, at least 2-3 years before EF, or Gripen NG. 




PRATEEK said:


> Why out of context , you mean to say Russia , Sweden , Euro.. won't provide source codes .


They will, but that was not the point! You asked me about advantages that the Rafale has in the strike role over F18SH, so it doesn't make sense to bring up those fighters in now.




PRATEEK said:


> Ohh , "Mig35 has no cruise missile".
> Sancho atleast know about our country's weapon system / jets



I know it and instead of beliving a picture only, I looked up the specs on the official Mikoyan site some time ago, which states:



> A-S" missiles:
> - anti-ship 4&#1093;Kh-31A, Kh-35E 4&#1093;Kh-31A, Kh-35E
> - anti-radar 4&#1093;Kh-31P 4&#1093;Kh-31P
> Guided bombs 4&#1093;KAB-500Kr 4&#1093;KAB-500Kr



- MiG-29K/KUB

But no Kh 59 for Mig 29K, or Mig 35, also no heavier bomb than the KAB 500Kg. 
I stopped to believe in pics from air shows when I realised, that most
of the weapons that they show for EF, doesn't exist in reality!




PRATEEK said:


> Again , just your assumption and belief .
> *Do you know Range+Weapon load what IAF is asking in MRCA .*
> Any one *completely insane* will compare combat load of Gripen with F18 , bcoz of two different classes .


I showed you the difference about range before and you didn't even disagree then, so why now? Gripen NG is in the same medium class as F18SH (otherwise it wouldn't be in the competition), only on the opposite ends.




PRATEEK said:


> Mig 35 A2G weapons are much more flexible / more options than every other jet


See above.




PRATEEK said:


> What F22 v Rafale ,
> where Rafale beat F22 six times and F22 couldn't detect Rafale .
> Plz post that , news/article/USAF statement
> I am sure someone won't agree


Actually 5 draws and only 1 loss, which is more than impressive for such a small fighter, that is often claimed to be an underpowered fighter bomber only. I posted it here before!




PRATEEK said:


> Are you suggesting - Rafale will remain hidden from Erieye



That's what you claim again, but I never stated something like that! 
I always said, that any MMRCA contender will have an advantage over MKI, to be less detectable by enemy AWACS, or fighter radars. I never said stealth, or invisible, but they all have clear advantages, simply by the smaller size, not to mention other advantages from RCS reduction features, or latest EWS. 
These will help them in the strike role for example and as I asked you before, from IAF point of view, for this role, wouldn't it be better to have 2 frontline fighters that offers different capabilities and weapons for such a role?
You never answered it, because you the that it's true, that Rafale offers what MKI don't have and the other way around too. Be it capabilities of the fighter, weapons, or techs, they would suit perfectly. 



PRATEEK said:


> Really , i have posted RCS certificate for Gripen 3 times on defence.pk as o.1m2 .


And that's exactly what I meant! Be honest please, would you take a source for Rafale to account that is sponsored by the French forces?




PRATEEK said:


> Of course you did , from post one you are not ready to accept its downside.
> You claim that it has only Pros but no cons
> 
> -When I showed it lacks HARM - You justify targeting by bombs is much more precise ( F18 carry both HARM as well as JDAM - Better anyways )
> -French weapons are costly - No reply , indirectly stating Indian weapons will be integrated ( So can others )
> -No HMS - waiting for reply , may be i would learn HMS is waste according to French blogs
> -MICA lacks Range - waiting for reply , armed RCS will be small to fool Eriye is moot



4 claims 4 times wrong! I agreed from the begining that the Rafale has no ARM, not because it doesn't integrated it yet, but because they use a different strategy in that role. I didn't even said that's the the better way, I only showed you that firing missiles preemptive is also not the solution and that's why the Europeans are thinking about other ways too.
Again I said from the begining that not only the weapons are costly, but the cost in general is the downside of the Rafale.
HMS, again I said it before that it don't has it integrated yet. Topsight was tested on Rafale, but the French forces wanted another HMS from Sagem, which was not integrated now.
And again I told you that MICA has less range than AIM 120, but that is not the point in BVR engagements, there are several factors that you have to take to accound. I even proved it with sources that a Rafale with MICA was able to beat opponents with AIM 120s. 
But that is typical for this discussion, we were talking about detection with strike loads and suddenly you jumped to BVR engangements, I proofed that missile range alone is not the point and again you jump to missiles against Erieye, which has nothing to do with what we wear talking initially.




PRATEEK said:


> EVERY NEW GEN RWR uses Inferometric technique/Triangulation that's why they are not called RWR any more but Electronic support measures (ESM).
> 
> NEW REQUIREMENTS...



It only says that the requirements for latest EWS had changed, but not that all EWS uses Inferometric techs. Again just a get into conclusion too fast. 




PRATEEK said:


> When official brochure shows HARM on Typhoon , I am sure they are using atleast contemporary RWR if they have brains.


Yeah just let us ignor that not a single ARM was ever integrated on EF, but it the brochure shows it, it must cue weapons.


Really, I don't see why we should go on with this. You are posting so many (indeed interesting) infos, but mainly not about what we are talking. I mean even you said now that Rafale can fire MICA and AASM via Spectra, which means to air and ground targets. But the only EWS that could do similar seems to be the F16 B60, because it uses the techs for locatating and targeting (AAM firing is not sure though). For the rest you mainly assuming/concluding that they could do similar, at least with ARM, but that's what I said it is limited to that weapon only. Not to mention that EF, or Gripen never had the chance to prove anything like this, because they didn't have any ARM. So the point stands, Rafale can cue weapons with Spectra now, while the others, if at all, can cue ARM.

It doesn't make sense if I had to correct you in every post about things that I didn't said, claims that has nothing to do with the reality. So I appreciate the discussion in general, because I guess we both could learn things, but now I am mainly correting your quotes than having a real discussion, especially about what we started. So if you want to go on with it, keep it at those things that I said and that are available now, or will be for IAF for sure. 
If you want to reply to the above mentioned things, send me an PM, if not, it would be nice if you could keep me updated about the EWS of F16IN, or Gripen NG from time to time, cause I'm interested in them too.


Besides that, I always said I am for Rafale no because it is the best fighter, but because it offers us the most advantages. So are you interested in setting up possible requirement, that could be important for MMRCA and comparing the contenders with them? I bet even you would see, that Rafale at least is one of the best contenders for India. Not to mention that it might be more interesting for other members too.


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## sancho

PRATEEK said:


> Just to inform , Gripen NG carries 7200Kg of combat load and Ferry range is more than 2220N-miles.( No refuel )



Because this is related to the topic directly again, as I told you the Gripen NG is still under development only and many specs are simply not known now, or are changing.

For example, the cost per h was stated at $4000 dollar in Brazil first, later was increased to $5000, but the technical evaluation hints $7 to 8000 per h.

Also at the begining, Gripen NG was about to have the same wingspan as the older Gripens:






But now it will have 0.2m more wingspan, but its emptyweight is still estimated at 7t.

Now the latest specs from Brazil says 7.2t payload, but figure doesn't really fit to the other specs.

MTOW: 16.5
- (minus) 7t empty
- 7.2t payload

= are only 2.3t left for internal fuel, which is pretty much what the older Gripens had, but the Gripen NG is said to have increased fuel to 3.5t as you can see in the offer to us:







So will it have less internal fuel now, or still the same 6t payload and what about the empty weight? 
As you can see, even the specs from Saab are changing and don't look really reliable now. I am trying to find out what specs they provided for the competition in Switzerland, but at least the final prototype is not out, it might remain estimations only.

G8!


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## indushek

My god man, put an end to this will ya , I open this thread to see any new info on MRCA and all i find is these two SANCHO and PRATEEK. 

AB TO CHOD DO MERE BHAIYON, BAKSHO HUME KHUDA KE LIYE.


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## soaringphnx

Sorry to barge into your err... "debate", (or maybe a "heated discussion" is more appropirate?) but I thought it would be good to post something I found.



PRATEEK said:


> What F22 v Rafale ,
> where Rafale beat F22 six times and F22 couldn't detect Rafale .
> Plz post that , news/article/USAF statement
> I am sure someone won't agree



I don't know anything about the Rafale being invisible to the F-22, but...








> French magazine Air & Cosmos published last week a photo obtained from the French Air Force showing *a Lockheed Martin F-22 in the target sights of a Dassault Rafale.* The apparent intercept took place during the exercises at Al Dhafra AB, UAE, in November and December, Air & Cosmos' Guillaume Steuer reports.
> 
> In late December, *the French Ministry of Defense boasted one kill in six engagements versus the F-22 in aerial combat. In turn, US Air Force F-22 pilots, however, told the media that their aircraft was undefeated during the exercise.*
> 
> It's impossible to make any sensible judgments from a single photo of an alleged air-to-air engagement, but this is certainly a significant image to appear in the history of both fighter programs.



Now I don't mean to say that the Rafale is superior in all aspects to the F-22 or anything, but I thought in the current context, this is interesting, especially since the Rafale is in the MRCA competition.

P.S. Keep up the discussion guys, don't worry, I can't comprehend much of what you guys are saying!!!


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## Indian-Devil

indushek said:


> My god man, put an end to this will ya , I open this thread to see any new info on MRCA and all i find is these two SANCHO and PRATEEK.
> 
> AB TO CHOD DO MERE BHAIYON, BAKSHO HUME KHUDA KE LIYE.



Its really a nice thread, 2 guys sharing their knowledge and thoughts abt MRCA, but guys have some soft words while correcting each others instead of using "little" harsh words.

But to be honest we mostly enjoying this thread. Keep up the good work with sharing knowledge with source.


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## KEETARP

soaringphnx said:


> Sorry to barge into your err... "debate", (or maybe a "heated discussion" is more appropirate?) but I thought it would be good to post something I found.
> 
> 
> I don't know anything about the Rafale being invisible to the F-22, but...
> 
> 
> Now I don't mean to say that the Rafale is superior in all aspects to the F-22 or anything, but I thought in the current context, this is interesting, especially since the Rafale is in the MRCA competition.
> 
> P.S. Keep up the discussion guys, don't worry, I can't comprehend much of what you guys are saying!!!



I decided not to post more - whatever ??

soaringphnx , i do appreciate your love for Rafale . 

But dear you should have checked this forum / net before selectively posting article . 

There were six DACT flown , one was won by F22 while 5 resulted in draw . by AdA air force 
Air-Cosmos writes 2 victory for F22 and 4 draws .


You missed to check what USAF pilot said about exercise 

F-22 Raptors return from training in Middle East | HamptonRoads.com | PilotOnline.com



> "In every test we did, the Raptors j*ust blew the competition* out of the water," Pilch said. "Their stats were off the chart."



Read the link , I posted . There is a video of that as well . 

Second - 
You see this article below 






and this is the translation 

"Although French aviators showed off a great deal about the "beatings" inflicted by their Rafales on British Typhoons during the last ATLC exercise in the United Arab Emirates, very little was said about the confrontation between Dassault's delta-wing aircraft and the American F-22As. In out-of-visual-range engagements, the American Raptors did not even condescend to turn on their radars, remaining invisible to the Rafale's RBE2 [radar system] and Spectra [self-defense system] while precisely locating the electromagnetic waves from the French fighter, thus securing their AMRAAM [missile] launches from a secure distance. *On two occasions at least, the F-22As also "tangled" with the Rafales in close combat, securing a "gun kill" each time without much difficulty.*"








> the AdA denied BVR fights with the F22 and reiterate the 5 draws and one loss in dogfight against the F22. Air&Cosmos inquired and it seems that it could be 2 loss for the rafale and 4 draws (according to their own sources)...It appears that one victory of the F22 is contested and claimed to be a draw. According to A&C The BVR story would be that F22 made virtual kills against rafale while rafale pilots were not aware that F22 pilots whould try to simulate this kind of engagements. (They were busy performing their own missions but not expecting that F22 would try to score a kill)



link - Rafale v Typhoon v F22 and the rest...Was there ever a conclusion? - Page 25 - Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums

Air-Cosmos changed their opinion later 

Third -
That shot is from OSF not from HUD/Piper , means no missile in WVR simulation would be engaged .
This image is taken when in group flying .

A hud image where clear shot is there is like this below - 










See the bearing+range on HUD .

Just to make you happy - That was Eurofighter nailed by Rafale in above image . 

Conclusion - 6 DACT - 2 won by F22 rest draw / Jets were withdrawn .

On page 140 of this thread , our Super Mod Blain2 explained it as well . Why bring that again ???

He gave you same reply 

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/4347-mrca-news-discussions-139.html#post965673


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## KEETARP

> believe what you want, but I see the facts and they are that Rafale is the *most developed* and ready fighter from Europe, which will be available with all capabilities that are on offer for us, at least 2-3 years before EF, or Gripen NG.



Europe is not the only one participating .
I don't get the point , 
when myself+DBC+others have shown Rafale is immature still you ..........



> They will, but that was not the point! You asked me about advantages that the Rafale has in the *strike role* over F18SH, so it doesn't make sense to bring up those fighters in now


 What does the Source code have to do with strike power / range ??
Do you still deny F18 has better weapon+Range+Fuel than Frenchie 



> *Mig 35 has no cruise missile* and can only carry limited heavy A2G loads



and you write in your next post 



> I know it and instead of beliving a picture only, I looked up the specs on the official Mikoyan site some time ago, which states:
> Quote:
> A-S" missiles:
> - anti-ship 4&#1093;Kh-31A, Kh-35E 4&#1093;Kh-31A, *Kh-35E*
> - anti-radar 4&#1093;Kh-31P 4&#1093;Kh-31P
> Guided bombs 4&#1093;KAB-500Kr 4&#1093;KAB-500Kr
> - MiG-29K/KUB



*Instead of claimimg Mig35 can't carry any cruise missile , you should have checked whether KH-35 is a cruise missile or not* . 

You should have checked this thread by Ironman 
http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...advanced-technology-but-funding-required.html

It's not MIG/IAF problem that you don't believe in that Mig29K pick with X-59 cruise missile . Its a part of package offered by Mig displayed in picture . Not sure what Eurofighter has to do here .



> I showed you the difference about range before and you didn't even disagree then, so why now? Gripen NG is in the same medium class as F18SH (otherwise it wouldn't be in the competition), only on the opposite ends.


Whether yo like or hate Gripen , that dosen't change the fact. 
Comparing F18 twin seater to single engine Gripen is like Apple to orange , completely different class .
Gripen is lightest aircraft second only to tejas ........... while F18 is .............



> Actually 5 draws and only 1 loss, which is more than impressive for such a small fighter, that is often claimed to be an underpowered fighter bomber only. I posted it here before!


I posted that already , Rafale did loose unlike that B.S article of Air-Cosmos claiming F22 loosing to Rafale . 



> These will help them in the strike role for example and as I asked you before, from IAF point of view, for this role, wouldn't it be better to have 2 frontline fighters that offers different capabilities and weapons for such a role?
> You never answered it, because you the that it's true, that Rafale offers what MKI don't have and the other way around too. Be it capabilities of the fighter, weapons, or techs, they would suit perfectly.



I replied F18 much better , F16 is excellent in SEAD , Gripen can do whatever IAF asks 
We are talking of Indian threats not like bombing Pacific . 
All of them are good modern machines nothing unique in Rafale .





> And that's exactly what I meant! Be honest please, would you take a source for Rafale to account that is sponsored by the French forces?



Show us certification of RCS like below 







I would be first one to acknowledge , but something like this ???




> 4 claims 4 times wrong! I agreed from the begining that the Rafale has no ARM, not because it doesn't integrated it yet, but because they use a different strategy in that role. I didn't even said that's the the better way, I only showed you that firing missiles preemptive is also not the solution and that's why the Europeans are thinking about other ways too.
> Again I said from the begining that not only the weapons are costly, but the cost in general is the downside of the Rafale.
> HMS, again I said it before that it don't has it integrated yet. Topsight was tested on Rafale, but the French forces wanted another HMS from Sagem, which was not integrated now.
> And again I told you that MICA has less range than AIM 120, but that is not the point in BVR engagements, there are several factors that you have to take to accound. I even proved it with sources that a Rafale with MICA was able to beat opponents with AIM 120s.
> But that is typical for this discussion, we were talking about detection with strike loads and suddenly you jumped to BVR engangements, I proofed that missile range alone is not the point and again you jump to missiles against Erieye, which has nothing to do with what we wear talking initially.



So you finally admit some drawbacks of Rafale 
No HMS
NO ARM 
Hugely expensive + more expensive weapons 
but still don't accept MICA lacks behind AIM120 , strange . 




> but not that all EWS uses Inferometric techs. Again just a get into conclusion too fast.



What
,* did you even bother to see Directional Finding capability on official brochure of Eurofighter .*






Left side second point ,

Plus I have shown F16,F18 can cue weapons . 

I was correct ,When you claimed 
Only Rafale gives Passive detection - Proven wrong (All)
Only Rafale gives 360 coverage - Proven wrong (All)
Only rafale has Situational awareness - Proven wrong (All except Mig)
Only Rafale has Enhanced Situational awareness - Proven wrong ("")
Only Rafale has capability to cue weapons - Wrong (F16+F18)



> I mean even you said now that Rafale can fire MICA and AASM via Spectra, which means to air and ground targets. *But the only EWS that could do similar seems to be the F16 B60*, because it uses the techs for locatating and targeting



Since you accept F16 has such thing , Your line only explains what i said above , when you claimed unique for Rafale - I showed you F16+F18 
And Eurofighter have ESM to find and locate target co-ordinates . 
See the brochure above 
And the link i showed
But because of your bias you failed to see that every Eurofighter will use wide weapons unlike Rafale where MICA and AASM are cue specific . 
Integrating IRIS-T + ASRAAM both requires .......... Leave it . You won't get

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## indushek

Indian-Devil said:


> Its really a nice thread, 2 guys sharing their knowledge and thoughts abt MRCA, but guys have some soft words while correcting each others instead of using "little" harsh words.
> 
> But to be honest we mostly enjoying this thread. Keep up the good work with sharing knowledge with source.



Bro what are u trying to convey?? u quote my words and praise the two!!! did u want to negate my words if so u can address me directly. If not why to quote me??


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## KEETARP

This is for guys who get turned on by F15SE , i have seen many ----

Ongoing FARN10 - Boeing shows new version of F18E offered to customers 






CFT+Enclosed........................

May be few more votes to F18 now

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## SQ8

The CFT's look neat.. but the weapons pod reminds me of japanese manga.


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## jha



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## CONNAN

The best thing for India to do would be to go with two manufacturers. The two manufacturers being Boeing
for building strategic partnership and EF for technology transfer. In my opinion India should go for 250 aircraft, 125 from each manufacturer. With the duel supplier route India would have leverage in case of a squeeze play from any manufacturer. 

I know money would be an issue; however present Indian economy can and will support the cost. With roughly 300 SU30 MKIs, 250 MRCA, and about 250 Tejas aircraft, IAF would be in good position to castrate the northern neighbors and perform circumcision on the western neighbors without anesthesia. Due to Indias bad neighborhood, such a insurance policy is required.

---------- Post added at 10:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:27 PM ----------

According to defence analysts and news reports , it is estimated that India will be spending about 100 Billion dollars on defence deals. Keeping that in mind - if we are spending 30 B dollars on just aircraft acquisition, then what will we do about other defence deals !! IMO MoD will not go for the deal if its overtly expensive as is the case with EF or Rafale !!


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## sancho

Just in short, because most of it was allready answered from me before and only those related to the topic, the rest via PM.



PRATEEK said:


> Instead of claimimg Mig35 can't carry any cruise missile , you should have checked whether KH-35 is a cruise missile or not



So providing the official Mig site as a source is claiming for you? Also now you claim Kh 35 is a cruise missile, although it is an anti ship missile? Its counter parts in the west are Harpoon and Exocet, so by far not comparable with cruise missiles.



PRATEEK said:


> You should have checked this thread by Ironman
> 
> It's not MIG/IAF problem that you don't believe in that Mig29K pick with X-59 cruise missile . Its a part of package offered by Mig displayed in picture . Not sure what Eurofighter has to do here .



I read that post before and it says:



> At Aero India 2007, *RSK MiG advertised* the MiG-35 as able to carry 3M-14AE, air-launched version of the 2275kg baseline cruise missile with firing range of 235km. The fighter is offered to the Indian air force MMRCA tender with these missiles in the package.



That is what they do with EF and all the weapons too! They *advertise* it with a lot of weapons, but the reality as we all know is pretty different and not even half the weapons that could be possible, are integrated. 
As you can also see, the article talks about air-launched club missiles, but the whole part about Kh 59 doesn't mention Mig 29, or Mig 35 at all. 
So far, no Mig 29 can carry any cruise missile as the Mig site proves, what is shown on air shows might be possible, but depends on integration and who will pay for it. By the time it could be available, Brahmos will be available for Flankers and as the Irkut CEO said on the Defexpo a smaller version is already under developent.


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## sancho

So, now to the real interesting news from today!



> *Eurofighter Firms to Fund AESA Development for 9 Months*
> 
> By TOM KINGTON, FARNBOROUGH, UK
> 
> *Eurofighter GmbH, the industrial consortium that builds the Typhoon fighter, will pre-finance the initial development of the AESA radar the aircraft badly needs for export campaigns, but only until next March, CEO Enzo Casolini said at the Farnborough Air Show on July 20.*
> 
> Eurofighter is hoping that the consortiums partner nations, Britain, Germany, Italy, and Spain, will then put up the money to keep the development on track to have a radar ready for potential buyers such as India.
> 
> Casolini pointed to a protocol of interest signed by the procurement offices of the four nations in May in which they state they have a requirement and will commit as soon as possible.
> 
> Asked if declining defense spending in Europe might yet scupper AESA investment plans, he replied, This is fundamental for weapons systems. We are not putting flowers on the airframe.
> 
> The development work is being undertaken by Euroradar, the consortium led by Italys Selex Galileo and including EADS and Spains Indra. Euroradar also worked on the mechanically scanned Captor radar now used on the aircraft.
> 
> Euroradar plans to use the existing back end of the aircrafts radar, as well as existing cooling and power systems, then add new e-scan transmit and receiver modules. *The modules would be delivered in 2013 for test flights that year, with entry into service in 2015.
> *
> The 2015 schedule is needed to match the Indian requirement, said Casolini, *although officials did not rule out India receiving a first batch of Eurofighters with mechanically scanned radars that could be later upgraded.*
> 
> The plan is complicated by the fact that the UK this year started its own e-scan development program with Selex Galileo, using Selex TR modules, which also envisages test flights in 2013. Casolini said the two paths being followed by the UK could merge.
> 
> The UK agreement has now been changed to the four nation agreement, he said.
> 
> But if some nations have different requirements it will be possible to allow diversity, he said.
> 
> The two will come together, said Euroradar chairman Andrew Cowdery.
> 
> Officials said that if the four-nation development was successful, one common TR module would be used by the partners for their radars, manufactured at a single location.
> 
> The choice will be based on where it is cheapest to do so, said Bob Mason, marketing and sales vice president at Selex Galileo.
> 
> Cowdery said the new radar would have the capability of offer electronic warfare functions, but there is nothing in the protocol about this.
> 
> Cowdery denied that Eurofighter has left it late to start develop of AESA radar, which is now considered a must-have on new fighter jets.
> 
> Others jumped in too early. This radar has the wide field of regard and lightweight TR [transmit-and-receive] modules, he said.
> 
> The radars field of view is enabled by a tilted, revolving swash plate on which the modules sit, as opposed to the fixed-plate used on American AESA radars.
> 
> Cowdery said maintenance on the swash plate would be slightly higher, but the minor penalty is worth it, for the extra functionality.
> 
> The new radar would use gallium arsenide in its modules, despite industry predictions that gallium nitride will one day offer higher performance.
> 
> Gallium arsenide will not be beaten on cost, he said. We will be using it for a long time.
> 
> A senior Italian defense source confirmed that Italy was behind the AESA initiative.
> 
> We do not have costs or timings yet, and we are viewing this mainly for export at present, but we supporting the concept, he said. The problem is how can we transition to it when we have contracts for the Captor radar stretching out to 2016? We cannot throw it away, even if we think AESA will be the final solution.
> 
> Pierfrancesco Francesco, CEO of Italian Eurofighter industrial partner Finmeccanica, said AESA was crucial for export sales of the fighter.
> 
> If Italy decides not to buy all, or part of the Tranche 3B, it is crucial that it follows the example of the UK, which is to push and strongly support export sales to complete the order. And we are all agreed that e-scan radar will make the Eurofighter a lot more competitive in export markets.



Farnborough 2010 - Defense News Show Scout  Eurofighter Firms to Fund AESA Development for 9 Months


So AESA for EF is cleared now at least from the consortium companies, the partner nations still didn't decide about fundings. The aim is on MMRCA but they can't deliver it on time, *even if the development goes through without any delays*, which is not likely with the history of delays in that program.

From another article: 



> The rolling-upgrade path will also likely be seen in how the AESA and weapons are introduced. The initial focus for the radar will be on air-to-air capabilities to support Meteor. About two years later, air-to-ground modes will follow to add Brimstone, Taurus and Storm Shadow ground-attack capabilities, notes a Eurofighter executive. An inverse synthetic aperture radar mode to fire anti-ship missiles would come in another step.



So the AESA in 2015 will only be able to integrate A2A missiles, for A2G missiles, especially the important cruise missiles it is expected only by 2017!

As I said before, when the EF is fully developed, it will be a great 4.5 gen fighter, but sadly way too late and by that time it there will be several 5. gen fighters available!


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## sancho

More news from Farnborough:



> *Gripen NG to fly in for show debut*
> 
> ...To be on view in the static display at the show through Friday, the demonstrator in May returned to Saab's Linkoping site in Sweden after completing a successful evaluation in India, in what was the type's first overseas trip.
> 
> The campaign included operating the Gripen NG from Leh air base, requiring aircraft start-up some 10,800ft (3,300m) above sea level.
> 
> Saab secured a last-minute approval from the Swedish government to deploy the demonstrator for RIAT and Farnborough. "This gives us the unique opportunity to bring the aircraft to the UK during the Swedish summer holiday break," says Lennart Sindahl, head of the company's Aeronautics business unit.
> 
> With the current gap in flight testing, the NG's prototype Raven 1000P active electronically scanned array radar has been removed following the aircraft's return from India, and is now with Selex Galileo in Edinburgh, Scotland. *The company will deliver its first pre-production radar to Saab in the third quarter of 2011.*
> 
> Selex vice-president marketing and sales Bob Mason says the Raven's high-resolution synthetic aperture radar was assessed during the test campaign, along with its air-to-air search capabilities. The Gripen NG is in contention for the Indian air force's 126-aircraft medium multi-role combat aircraft deal, along with the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Dassault Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon, Lockheed Martin F-16 and RSK MiG-35.
> 
> Saab-led Gripen International says its two-seat demonstrator had flown 175 times before arriving in the UK. Also featuring a more powerful engine, extended-range performance and an expanded range of air-launched weapons, the aircraft made its first flight in May 2008.



FARNBOROUGH: Gripen NG to fly in for show debut


From another articel:



> MS21 Version
> Saab already has the next major iteration in its sights. The MS21 version is to include a major review of the aircrafts avionics system, including computers and displays, with the accent placed on handling vastly increased amounts of information at differing security classification levels. The architecture will also to be able to handle new types of sensors.
> 
> It is evident that the MS21 will become the JAS 39E/F, and that it will be based closely on the AESA-equipped Gripen NG. Although the exact nature of an MS21 Gripen has yet to be defined, it will almost certainly incorporate the more powerful General Electric F414G engine. An avionics development contract was awarded to Saab in May and is expected to lead to a concept evaluation review later this year. *Preliminary design reviews will be undertaken next year, leading to full development starting in 2012.*
> 
> Sweden expects to have the JAS 39E/F in service by around 2017, although it has committed to bring that date forward if Brazil adopts the Gripen so that the customer does not shoulder the burden of fielding a major new version on its own.




So first AESA prototypes in mid 2011, real design of Gripen E/F only by 2012! That shows what I stated yesterday, that too much of the Gripen is still not clear and that's why the specs are changing from time to time and competition to competition.
This was stated in the reports from the Brazilian competition too, which rated the Gripen as high risk, because its mainly on paper now.


----------



## jha

*FARNBOROUGH: Boeing reveals F-15 and F-18 fighter development plans *​
Boeing yesterday revealed a number of surprising development efforts in the strike fighter market, including an external weapons bay for the F/A-18E/F and the existence of an in-production product stamped "proprietary".

The briefing appeared staged to showcase Boeing's long-term commitment in the manned fighter market despite losing the Joint Strike Fighter contract nearly nine years ago to Lockheed Martin.

Boeing now anticipates that production of F-15s and F/A-18E/F will continue through the mid-2020s, although both lines are scheduled for shutdown in 2012 and 2015 in the absence of new orders.




After unveiling a package of radar cross-section improvements for the F-15 last year named Silent Eagle, Boeing displayed a package of new enhancements offered as options on new sales of the Super Hornet.

*The most visible change is an externally mounted pod mounted on the Super Hornet's centreline hardpoint. The pod is able to carry either a mix of two Mk82-class bombs and two AIM-120 missiles, or four AIM-120 missiles.

The external pod would help to reduce the Super Hornet's radar cross-section by removing missiles and bombs from external hard points.*

Unlike the Silent Eagle, which was focused on reducing the F-15E's radar cross-section and updating the electronic warfare system and avionics, *the new Super Hornet features are intended to provide a broader spectrum of improvements*, says Shelley Lavender, Boeing vice-president and general manager of global strike systems.
*
Boeing also plans to offer other upgrades for the Super Hornet, including conformal fuel tanks and an infrared search and tracking system.
*
Beyond the F-15 and F-18 product lines, Boeing sees a bright future in the strike fighter market. As the supplier for the Lockheed F-22's operational flight programme, Boeing is deeply involved in the US Air Force's upgrades roadmap for that aircraft. Meanwhile, the US Navy is asking contractors to bid for a carrier-based unmanned aircraft system that could be deployed in 2018.




Both the USN and US Air Force are also starting the process of defining their needs for a next generation air dominance fighter that would begin after 2025 to replace the Super Hornet and F-22.

Boeing's Lavender also showed a chart to reporters that included a new product that enters production this year, but was marked only "proprietary". Asked to elaborate and clarify the new product or products, Lavender repeatedly declined.


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## jha

So, an external pod with 4 AIM-120s...the capacity of SH seems to overlapping with Su-30...


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## sancho

jha said:


> So, an external pod with 4 AIM-120s...the capacity of SH seems to overlapping with Su-30...



Mh instead of 4 smaller AIM 120 on the wings, one bigger pod on the centerline station, it should depend on the shaping of the pod if it really reduced the RCS don't you think? I think the F15 SE CFTs with internal weapon bays should be better.


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## jha

sancho said:


> Mh instead of 4 smaller AIM 120 on the wings, one bigger pod on the centerline station, it should depend on the shaping of the pod if it really reduced the RCS don't you think? I think *the F15 SE CFTs with internal weapon bays should be bette*r.



No doubt that is better..however any improvement is good for us..
Even though they are claiming that RCS has reduced , i dint think this will make that much difference..
Lets see what more they can do on this..


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## Nishan_101

Briefing: Fighter club (that's the forum name)

India

In India the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) continues to make gentle progress towards entering service, nearly 30 years after it was conceived. Led by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), the programme was launched in 1983 after several years of study but the first LCA only flew in 2001. Since then the LCA has made halting progress as various aircraft, systems and engine development issues have been dealt with.

A 2006 order called for 20 aircraft (plus 20 options) to be powered by General Electric's F404 in place of the intended indigenous Kaveri turbofan. The first production aircraft flew in June 2008 and the first Tejas unit was expected to declare initial operating capability this year. The F404 is now competing with Eurojet's EJ200 for a future LCA engine contract.

India has a co-operative agreement with Russia to work on the PAK-FA programme with a view to adopting that aircraft as its next-generation fighter. At the same time the DRDO is working on a separate future fighter concept under the stealthy Medium Combat Aircraft (MCA) programme.

INTERNATIONAL FIGHTER COMPETITIONS

The fighter market is at something of a high-water mark, with several major procurement efforts under way. Although the global financial crisis has halted some planned purchases, particularly in Eastern Europe, many other air forces are maintaining their momentum. These include:

The Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) programme for the Indian Air Force (IAF). Initial buy of 126 aircraft to replace MiG-21 and others. Follow-on licensed production expected to take that number to 200-300 platforms. Competitors: Boeing Super Hornet, Dassault Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon, Lockheed Martin F-16IN, Russian Aircraft Corporation MiG MiG-35, Saab Gripen NG. IAF has completed aircraft evaluations. Possible down-select to shortlist of three expected this year. Possible type selection in 2011.
For Indians
Nishan_101 is online now Report Post Edit/Delete Message


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## marcos98

BAD NEWS FOR EF2000

*Italy to axe Eurofighter orders*

FARNBOROUGH, England, July 20 (Reuters) - Italy upset Europe's defence industry on Tuesday by announcing plans to axe its share of the final production run of the Eurofighter combat jet at the Farnborough air show where foreign rivals were showcasing their own jets.

The unexpected announcement by one of four nations involved in the project highlighted the pressures being put on European defence budgets and came hours after reluctant arms firms agreed to cough up the funds to develop a new radar for the plane to boost exports.

"We have decided to cut 25 Eurofighters with a saving of 2 billion euros," Italian defence minister Ignazio la Russa told reporters at the air show in southern England.

Italy, Britain, Germany and Spain ordered a total of 620 Eurofighter jets in the 1990s and split the order into three tranches, each of which needed separate funding approval.

The third tranche of 236 planes was split into two in 2008 when nations were already facing a squeeze on budgets, and manufacturers have been pressing governments to plug the remaining budget gap to avoid having to lay off workers.

La Russa did not say which planes he was referring to but air show delegates said he clearly meant Italy's entire allocation of 25 planes under the final tranche, known as 3B.

This would cut Italy's total Eurofighter order to 96.

"We have no comment because we have received no formal communication," a Eurofighter spokesman said.

Defence reviews and budget pressures have also placed doubts over remaining planes allocated to Italy's three partners.

The Eurofighter is made by an industry consortium of the same name that includes Italy's Finmeccanica (SIFI.MI), Britain's BAE Systems (BAES.L) and EADS (EAD.PA), which represents Germany and Spain.

The group last month submitted an estimated 10 billion-euro offer to supply 124 planes under tranche 3B.

But executives in the consortium are resigned to seeing the number fall as governments cut deeply into defence spending.

"These cuts could be a big problem because if you cut production capacity it is costly to get it back," an executive close to the project said, asking not to be named.

Eurofighter said earlier it would put an unspecified amount into a new radar for the plane together with a specialist radar consortium led by Finmeccanica.

The fighter group said it aimed to have the new actively scanned electronic radar on the multirole aircraft by 2015.

The move and its timing were both designed to position the European plane for a contest to supply 126 fighter jets to India, one of the world's most sought-after defence deals.

The $12 billion Indian tender competition, which could be formally launched next year, is in one of the most hotly contested international defence markets, attracting bidders from the United States, Russia and Europe.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## marcos98

GOOD NEWS FOR SUPER HORNET

*Boeing has radar reduction efforts for Super Hornet*
FARN10: Boeing does strike fighters - The DEW Line
The title of the briefing was "The Strike Fighter Evolution", and the briefer was Boeing vice president and general manager for global strike systems Shelley Lavender. In my experience, a briefing with such a title is unpromising: Lots of generic information and references to "generations", but little in the way of news.

But this briefing was different, as shown by this tantalizing slide:
Don't get too excited about the line on F-22. No, Boeing is not the prime contractor for the F-22, but it's responsible for building one-third of the fuselage and integrating the avionics. In the latter role, Boeing expects a thriving business for F-22 modernization programs in the years ahead.

But pay close attention to the last line on slide. It's the one labeled "propietary" and indicates that it's in production today. We don't know what "it" is, and, of course, Lavender declined to elaborate or clarify.

And that may not have been the most interesting slide in Boeing's brief. Take a look at the one below, and note the bullet point for "enclosed weapons pod" and image.


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## jha

*MMRCA Lobbing : Mike Mullen, Holbrooke on way to India​*


It is set to be a week of India-US diplomacy as the US topmost military commander, Admiral Mike Mullen, and Special Envoy Richard Holbrooke come here for talks with Indian officials ahead of US President Barack Obamas visit to New Delhi in November. Holbrooke, Obamas special representative for Holbrookes visit comes close on the heels of the discussions between External Affairs Minister SM Krishna and US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton in Kabul on Tuesday.

Holbrooke is likely to meet Krishna, Foreign Secretary Nirupama Rao and senior officials in the external affairs ministry.

The two sides are likely to review the situation in Afghanistan following Tuesdays Kabul conference that focused on handing over security of the country to Afghan forces by 2014.

The recent foreign-minister level discussions between India and Pakistan, which also figured in talks between Clinton and Krishna, will come up for detailed discussions.

The talks between Krishna and Qureshi on July 15 deadlocked on issues of terror and Jammu and Kashmir, without any visible roadmap for dialogue.

In view of the July 2011 deadline for beginning phased withdrawal of US forces from Afghanistan, the US is keen that India and Pakistan continue their dialogue as it will deprive Islamabad of an excuse not to concentrate on targeting the insurgents sanctuaries inside its territory.

Mullen is likely to meet Defence Minister A.K. Antony and National Security Adviser Shivshankar Menon.

Mullens visit comes at a time when both sides are looking at expanding defence cooperation across a swathe of areas.

The visit also coincides with intensified lobbying for the $10 billion contract for 126 fighters for the Indian Air Force (IAF).

Afghanistan and Pakistan, flies in here from Kabul on Wednesday. Mullen, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff (CJCS), arrives here on Thursday to discuss expanded defence cooperation between the two countries.


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## marcos98

OK.......GOOD NEWS FOR EF2000

*Eurofighter and Euroradar to Develop Latest Generation AESA Radar*

HALLBERGMOOS, Germany: An innovative cutting edge AESA radar system, reconfirms Eurofighter as the most advanced aircraft available on the market.

Eurofighter GmbH and Euroradar, together with their industrial partners, have begun full scale development of a latest generation Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar. The target in-service date for the new radar is 2015 to meet the requirements of Eurofighter Partner Nations and export customers.

Eurofighter CEO Enzo Casolini said of the decision &#8220;This is an important step in the Eurofighter programme and will ensure that Typhoon continues to lead the way as the world&#8217;s best new generation multi-role combat aircraft. In consultation with our Core Nation customers we can offer an AESA capability that far exceeds any other radar available. This capability will mean that Eurofighter is in the best possible position when offering Typhoon to the export market. The in-service date means we are perfectly positioned to respond to the complex and demanding requirements of the air forces&#8221;.

The decision means that Eurofighter will further develop the capability of the Typhoon aircraft to enhance its radar performance, building on preliminary development and flight testing undertaken since 2007. Although the current Mechanically Scanned (M-Scan) radar is considered to be best in class, AESA technology will see the Typhoon's radar capabilities developed even further. The planned AESA radar will offer a variety of benefits over M-Scan, including increased detection and tracking ranges, advanced air-to-surface capability and enhanced electronic protection measures.

The new radar will retain the key features of the existing Captor radar architecture in order to exploit the maturity of the current system and will use latest generation technology to provide a full complement of air-to-air and air-to-surface modes. The large array can be accommodated easily in the Typhoon&#8217;s radome and, being fitted on a repositioner, will provide an extremely wide field of regard. This will see Typhoon's combat effectiveness enhanced even further, allowing the Typhoon to outperform any other aircraft available on the market. The radar will offer customers the freedom to retrofit their existing Typhoons when required. The radar will have significant growth potential and both existing and new customers will be able to participate in tailoring the radar to meet their individual operational requirements.

Euroradar is a multi-national consortium lead by SELEX Galileo, a Finmeccanica Company, alongside EADS Defence Electronics and Indra. Euroradar has delivered over 250 Captor mechanically scanned radars into the Typhoon programme to date and this experience will ensure a timely and smooth transition to AESA.

Eurofighter Typhoon is the world's most advanced new generation real multi-role/swing-role combat aircraft available on the market and has been ordered by six nations (Germany, Italy, Spain, United Kingdom, Austria and the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia). With 707 aircraft under contract, it is Europe&#8217;s largest military collaborative programme and delivers leading-edge technology, strengthening Europe&#8217;s aerospace industry in the global competition.

More than 100,000 jobs in 400 companies are secured by the programme. Eurofighter Jagdflugzeug GmbH manages the programme on behalf of the Eurofighter Partner Companies: Alenia Aeronautica/Finmeccanica, BAE Systems, EADS CASA and EADS Deutschland, Europe&#8217;s foremost aerospace companies with a total turnover of approx. EUR 88 billion (2008).


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## SpArK

Do you guys have a date for that report that was supposedly to be out in a few days time as reported earlier?


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## CONNAN

I was going through an earlier post in the LCA thread about the race for developing an AESA radar for the LCA,where the govt. has called only two manufacturers for their offers (Israeli or EADS only for the LCA MK-2),might offer a clue to the IAF's preference which could have ramifications on the MMRCA contest. US manufacturers reportedly couldn't get their govt's. clearance.That should scuttle both US birds,plus the French,Russian (technical) and Italian (financial) didn't make the grade for differing reasons.If these radars were rejected for the above reasons,it stands to reason that they will impact upon the evaluation by the IAF for the MMRCA,where an AESA radar is a key requirement.If true,then it is kaput for the Super Horny,as frankly the Falcon is fatally handicapped being flown by the Pakis.The fact that the Eyeties couldn't come up with the moolah for developing the SELEX radar casts a shadow on the Gripen.Only a sudden about turn by Ombaba when he visits India might alllow the F-18SH to survive to the next round.This decision on the LCA is an important one and shouldn't be ignored as a key factor in the MMRCA race.If the EJ is also chosen as the engine for the LCA MK-2,then the chances of the Typhoon will improve dramatically,especially if both radar and engine are selected for the LCA,it would make enormous common and commercial sense to standardise upon the same for both LCA and MMRCA.

The only fly in the ointment is if the Israeli radar is picked and the Russians offer it on the MIG-35,while the EJ wins the engine contract,which looks likely especially as EADS is involved as a consultant to the LCA project.


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## CONNAN

The GOI/IAF have spelt out their twin-track preferences very clearly (east and west) for "safety in numbers" policy,with huge orders for Russian Sukhois (incl.Russian radars),plus more with the 5th-gen fighter and upgrades to existing MIG-29s.That leaves us with Mirage-2000 upgrades,and other UGs for Jags,plus the LCA and MMRCA.The expectation is that a western nation/consortium will help us with TOT for the bells and whistles for both latter programmes.Our desi AESA radar seems to be some way off.Synergy in linking the MMRCA deal with other projects/acquisitions seems to be the method that some contestants are using.
1.Russia with Su-30s.MIG-29 upgrades and the PAK-FA 5th-gen fighter,plus MIG-35.
2.France with M-2000 UGs plus Rafale.
3.Eurofighter/EADS with the Typhoon and offer of LCA engines and consultancy,plus new RR engines for the Jag UG.
4.US with transports (C-17,C-130-Js,plus Honywell for Jag UG) and F-18/F-16.

The first three conetstants seem to have more synergy/commonality,as they already have their earlier aircraft/key components/weaponry in service (Jaguar,MIG series and Sukhois,M-2000).The Swedes are new to the nation and the US are trying to offer a comprehensive defence package that will include helos and artillery.Not that the others also have their varying wares in service with the IN and IA.This key factor s/c will have an impact upon the price and the one who can leverage this most will be hard to beat.


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## CONNAN

There seems to be a disconnect between what IAF wants out of this deal and what the GoI wants.

IAF wants an aircraft that it can acquire in numbers to not only keep squadron strength from falling, but to help increase that to 42. It probably envisages many more numbers than the initial 126. IAF also wants something easy and cheap to operate and maintain. It wants high tech (AESA) to come in as part of the deal. And it would want to incorporate its existing arsenal of AAMs and other desi tech into that plane (to customize the plane).

This points to a single-engine fighter, similar to IAF's initial choice of M2K. The planes closest to that spec are the Gripen and the F-16. Choosing Gripen wouldn't buy India any geopolitical goodwill, and it comes with the baggage of a US engine. Buying F-16 would make US happy, but then the Pakis operate a not too dissimilar version in the block 52, and getting it to work with Russian and Astra AAMs and incorporating other desi tech into it could be tricky. Not to mention the displeasure of having to deal with all the end-user agreements etc.

Mig-35 is the cheapest of the two-engined fighters, and Russians would give almost anything that the Indians asked them to in order to win this deal. But IAF is wary of the Russians, since Russian equipment has always given them service and maintenance headaches. IAF already has access to Russian tech via Su30MKI, Mig-29K and FFGA. What new tech would this deal provide? Probably not much.

The Typhoon and Rafale, while great fighters, would be very costly to buy initially, and to operate. They do offer great geopolitical and military advantages, especially the Typhoon. 12 billion dollars would probably buy only half as many as IAF would want. The F/A-18, while somewhat cheaper than the above two, is a much older airframe. If one is splurging and buying a two-engine plane, better to splurge a little more and buy the latest tech. F/A-18 also has all the disadvantages of buying from US.

The only way out then, to make both IAF happy and for GoI to fulfill its aim of leveraging this deal for geopolitical advantages, is to escalate the total price of this deal to close to $18-20 billion. That would get IAF the number of airframes it wants, and would allow GoI complete freedom to choose the deal that is most geo-politically advantageous.

Will the Indian govt. be willing to spend that much on this deal? We should ask that if it didn't intend to, then why include the two-engined planes in the fray in the first place? GoI must have been looking ahead and asking itself - can we afford this deal considering that the time-frame is 2014-2020, with 8&#37; average minimum GDP growth? The answer it came up with must have been a Yes. 

The only other explanation is that GoI always intended for a single-engined fighter to win the deal, but took the others along for a ride. Just doesn't make sense, and the manufacturers spending hundreds of millions on trials are not exactly fools. They must have received an assurance that their products would be considered if they pass technical trials.


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## Tejas-MkII

why don't u guies post link with your post...


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## CONNAN

The MMRCA contest therefore must focus upon core requirements which are fundamentally increasing the inventory whch has fallen dangerously low,with affordable multi-role aircraft that can remain in service for at least two decades.The future stealth advantage is being taken care of by the 5th-gen fighter which is already flying and within 5-6 years time should also be entering into IAF service.The LCA programme is where we can toy to an extent with foreign tech in developing our own fighter.We cannot afford gold-plated aircraft that cost the earth for the illusionary sake of acquiring "superior tech",or pleasing some nations to recommend us for a UNSC seat-which in any case is going to be very devalued in the future with many new incumbents and the poss. that we will not have a veto as right.

The manner in which the Hawk AJT local production has taken place is a stark reminder that even western OEM suppliers "welsh" on the deal (unacceptable quailty of components supplied),drastically afffecting local production,only 12 built in two years.In spending $10billion+ on such a deal,we must take the maximum care to see that our money is well spent and that the risk element is reduced to the minimum,when it comes to possible sanctions,ease of induction of aircraft,weaponry and technology into service and the logistic and after-sales support.From my observations thus far,three fit the bill better.


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## SpArK

Tejas-MkII said:


> why don't u guies post link with your post...



Its from BR.. so link is not important, but the content is.


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## CONNAN

Tejas-MkII said:


> why don't u guies post link with your post...



who and which post and BR links are not allowed here


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## SpArK

connanxlrc1000 said:


> who and which post and BR links are not allowed here



He was referring to the posts you have written, taken from BR.


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## CONNAN

BENNY said:


> He was referring to the posts you have written, taken from BR.



yup but i want to highlight the good points


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## soaringphnx

PRATEEK said:


> I decided not to post more - whatever ??
> 
> soaringphnx , i do appreciate your love for Rafale .
> 
> But dear you should have checked this forum / net before selectively posting article .
> 
> There were six DACT flown , one was won by F22 while 5 resulted in draw . by AdA air force
> Air-Cosmos writes 2 victory for F22 and 4 draws .
> 
> 
> You missed to check what USAF pilot said about exercise
> 
> F-22 Raptors return from training in Middle East | HamptonRoads.com | PilotOnline.com
> 
> 
> 
> Read the link , I posted . There is a video of that as well .
> 
> Second -
> You see this article below
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and this is the translation
> 
> "Although French aviators showed off a great deal about the "beatings" inflicted by their Rafales on British Typhoons during the last ATLC exercise in the United Arab Emirates, very little was said about the confrontation between Dassault's delta-wing aircraft and the American F-22As. In out-of-visual-range engagements, the American Raptors did not even condescend to turn on their radars, remaining invisible to the Rafale's RBE2 [radar system] and Spectra [self-defense system] while precisely locating the electromagnetic waves from the French fighter, thus securing their AMRAAM [missile] launches from a secure distance. *On two occasions at least, the F-22As also "tangled" with the Rafales in close combat, securing a "gun kill" each time without much difficulty.*"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> link - Rafale v Typhoon v F22 and the rest...Was there ever a conclusion? - Page 25 - Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums
> 
> Air-Cosmos changed their opinion later
> 
> Third -
> That shot is from OSF not from HUD/Piper , means no missile in WVR simulation would be engaged .
> This image is taken when in group flying .
> 
> A hud image where clear shot is there is like this below -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> See the bearing+range on HUD .
> 
> Just to make you happy - That was Eurofighter nailed by Rafale in above image .
> 
> Conclusion - 6 DACT - 2 won by F22 rest draw / Jets were withdrawn .
> 
> On page 140 of this thread , our Super Mod Blain2 explained it as well . Why bring that again ???
> 
> He gave you same reply
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/4347-mrca-news-discussions-139.html#post965673



Sorry, I didn't know it was posted earlier. Won't happen again!

P.S. I am not of the opinion that the Rafale is superior to the F-22. I too agree that the F-22 is the most advanced and most expensive fighter in service today.


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## jha

*Super Hornet mods added to export list*​

Boeing announced here yesterday a set of potential enhancements to the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet that it will market to export prospects. *They include an enclosed weapons pod that is intended to lower the aircrafts radar cross section*. The countries currently evaluating or expressing interest in the Super Hornet include Brazil, Denmark, India, Japan, Kuwait, Malaysia, and Qatar.




There are six elements to what Boeing calls the Super Hornet International Road Map. The first is already under development and was seen by AIN during a visit to St. Louis last month. This is *the Next Generation cockpit, which brings to the F-18 the large (11- by 19-inch) one-piece, touchscreen display, seen previously only on the Lockheed Martin F-35. Such a display helps improve the fused presentation of the integrated sensor suite that is already a big Super Hornet feature.* The new cockpit could be made available for deliveries in 2013, according to Shelley Lavender, Boeings vice-president Global Strike Systems. 

The other enhancements would be available from 2015, she said. These include the enclosed weapons pod, which would be carried on the centerline station, and may possibly be partially faired into the fuselage. It is sized for four AIM-120 AMRAAMs, but can also take air-to-ground weapons. *According to Mike Gibbons, the Boeing F/A-18 program manager, an element of stealth was already designed into the Super Hornet. We inserted some offerings from our Joint Strike Fighter proposal, in terms of shaping and materials, he said in St Louis last month. Stealth on the aircraft is complemented by the active electronic warfare system* , he added. 

Conformal fuel tanks can straddle the upper fuselage, and confer an additional 10 percent range, according to Lavender. *An enhanced performance engine (EPE) version of the GE F414 would provide a 20-percent increase in thrust. India has requested this extra power*. The final two enhancements on offer are *an internal IRST (infrared search and track) system, carried in the nose, and a spherical missile and laser warning system, housed above and (presumably also) below the airplane.*

Reactions: Like Like:
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## KEETARP

> An enhanced performance engine (EPE) version of the GE F414 would provide a 20-percent increase in thrust. India has requested this extra power



Something to look out what others are offering in Engine thrust .


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## jha

PRATEEK said:


> Something to look out what others are offering in Engine thrust .



Yup..especially since other favorite RAFALE is said be having some problems with thrust..
with each passing day SH becomes stronger in the competition...


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## Sunny FOXGLOVE

I say, multi-role canard-delta strike fighter, Eurofighter Typhoon gonna win this contract wid d power of its twin-engine & thrust vectoring. Also it is equipped wid d Captor-E (CAESAR) AESA radar.


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## your fear

we have two good option rafale and eurrofighter we should select one of tem and dont waste more time


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## Dash

Guys, what say, EFT will not be selected, simply because it doesnt fit the budget. Does it?


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## gogbot

jha said:


> *Super Hornet mods added to export list*​
> 
> Boeing announced here yesterday a set of potential enhancements to the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet that it will market to export prospects. *They include an enclosed weapons pod that is intended to lower the aircrafts radar cross section*. The countries currently evaluating or expressing interest in the Super Hornet include Brazil, Denmark, India, Japan, Kuwait, Malaysia, and Qatar.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are six elements to what Boeing calls the Super Hornet International Road Map. The first is already under development and was seen by AIN during a visit to St. Louis last month. This is *the Next Generation cockpit, which brings to the F-18 the large (11- by 19-inch) one-piece, touchscreen display, seen previously only on the Lockheed Martin F-35. Such a display helps improve the fused presentation of the integrated sensor suite that is already a big Super Hornet feature.* The new cockpit could be made available for deliveries in 2013, according to Shelley Lavender, Boeings vice-president Global Strike Systems.
> 
> The other enhancements would be available from 2015, she said. These include the enclosed weapons pod, which would be carried on the centerline station, and may possibly be partially faired into the fuselage. It is sized for four AIM-120 AMRAAMs, but can also take air-to-ground weapons. *According to Mike Gibbons, the Boeing F/A-18 program manager, an element of stealth was already designed into the Super Hornet. We inserted some offerings from our Joint Strike Fighter proposal, in terms of shaping and materials, he said in St Louis last month. Stealth on the aircraft is complemented by the active electronic warfare system* , he added.
> 
> Conformal fuel tanks can straddle the upper fuselage, and confer an additional 10 percent range, according to Lavender. *An enhanced performance engine (EPE) version of the GE F414 would provide a 20-percent increase in thrust. India has requested this extra power*. The final two enhancements on offer are *an internal IRST (infrared search and track) system, carried in the nose, and a spherical missile and laser warning system, housed above and (presumably also) below the airplane.*



I am really intrested in the 



> They include an enclosed weapons pod that is intended to lower the aircrafts radar cross section



This will lead to a very High survivability rate for aircraft.

I thought SH was out but with these latest additions. Guarantee time tables. And prompt delivery.

Is it worth suffering the US restrictions for this plane.

Otherwise we should go for EFT or SAAB


----------



## sancho

jha said:


> Yup..especially since other favorite RAFALE is said be having some problems with thrust..
> with each passing day SH becomes stronger in the competition...



Please, when this will end? Rafale has one of the best T/W ratios in the competition (F18Sh one of the worst!), but people still keeps claiming thrust problems. 
Besides that, the GE 414 EPE is nothing new, they offered it for LCA, but it is not developed yet and the USN will not fund the further development, so if at all, we have to fund the development first to get more thrust. 
On the other hand Dassault offered Kaveri Snema co-development and even the integration into Rafale, so if we fund an engine development, shouldn't it be our own? 

Regarding the upgrade of the F18SH, I am a bit disappointed, because I expected similar CFTs with weapon bays like the F15 SE has, which means the fighter would fly with no external load. But now it seems they replace 4 small AAMs on the wings, with 1 big centerline pod only, wonder how stealthy that really will be (note that SR AAMS will still remain on the wingtips!)?
In A2G the combo of up to 4 MK82 bombs and CFTs might work in CAS, but any bigger strike load must be carried external with other fuel tanks again. 



Dash said:


> Guys, what say, EFT will not be selected, simply because it doesnt fit the budget. Does it?



Don't think that will be the main problem, but that they can't deliver AESA radar on time and it would be available only as a retrofit option later. Captor M is still a very good radar, but AESA was an important requirement, so IAF/MoD can't ignor it!


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## CONNAN




----------



## jha

*IAF evaluation report on multi-role aircraft soon*

The IAF is set to come out "within the next few days" with the results of the flight tests of six warplanes competing for a multi-billion dollar deal for 126 multi-role combat aircraft, a media report said today. *The evaluation report is for the purchase of 126 fighter jet planes with the option for 63 more, and possibly additional follow-on orders.*

The entire deal is estimated to be worth more than 10 billion US dollars. The IAF is set to come out with the report "within the next few days," aviation journal Shownews said quoting a Russian news report.

The six firms bidding for the contract are Saab (Gripen E/F), Dassault (Refale), Boeing (F/A-18 E/F), Lockheed Martin (F-16 E/F), EADS (Eurofighter) and RSK-MiG (MiG-35). The Defence Ministry is likely to shortlist three or four of the six aircraft by December this year or January next.

"The final decision on the specific aircraft to be purchased will be political in nature and may only be taken at the end of 2012," the report said. *It also claimed that if the Russian MiG is kept out of the final phase, "there might be a decision to buy 50-60 of them outside the tender process.*

" India is going in for the MRCA to replace its ageing MiG fleet of Russian origin. At present, the number of IAF squadrons are down to below 35 and the Air Force has been pressing the government for a quicker decision on inducting the warplanes.

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## Ishan

jha said:


> *IAF evaluation report on multi-role aircraft soon*
> "The final decision on the specific aircraft to be purchased will be political in nature and may only be taken at the end of 2012," the report said. *It also claimed that if the Russian MiG is kept out of the final phase, "there might be a decision to buy 50-60 of them outside the tender process.*
> 
> .



Wow Tht means MiG 35 Might also be Taken


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## indushek

WTF if decision is to be taken in 2012 when will they start coming in, and what happened to the 39 to 32 sqaudron thingy??????


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## soaringphnx

jha said:


> *It also claimed that if the Russian MiG is kept out of the final phase, "there might be a decision to buy 50-60 of them outside the tender process.*



Thank you Jha, You just made my day!!


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## flanker143

> Thank you Jha, You just made my day!!



same here bro........................ !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## soaringphnx

*MRCA Trials Over IAF moves on to Helicopter Trials*​
*The Indian Air Force has completed its field evaluation trials of all the six aircraft in the fray for its 126-plus Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (M-MRCA) requirement and the final report is set to be submitted to the Ministry of Defence (MoD) by July-end.* 

The IAF has indeed stuck to its promise of completing the trials on time, and submitting the report even before the deadline it had initially set for itself. The exhaustive report has more than 600 parametres for each aircraft, and the report, in two sets, covers the performance of each contender, and how many of the 600-plus points the aircraft individually met during the trials.

Combat radars like AESA (Active Electronically Scanned Array) and FLIR (Forward Looking Infrared Radars), beyond-the-visual-range, all-weather precision engagement capability, engine power, and various parameters to ensure mission success and pilot survival are among the considerations. For the first time, life cycle costs in maintaining the aircraft for their estimated life of 40 years or 6000 flying hours, is also on the platter.

Significantly, as the acquisition of the MRCAs could take a few years, IAF is ordering another 42 SU MKI aircraft from Russia to add to its existing list of 230 of these formidable air dominance fighters, half of which are already operational with its combat squadrons. More than 100 of these are under production with components made both in Russia and India.

At the same time, IAF has completed the trials of utility helicopters and begun trials of combat helicopters. Boeing&#8217;s Apache Longbow AH 64D from the US and Mi 28 from Russia are in the fray.

In the utility category, Eurocopter Fennec 555 and Russia&#8217;s Kamov 226 are the two contenders.

The combat helicopter requirement specified tandem configuration, and of the three contenders initially, Augusta Westland is reported to have withdrawn its Mangusta.

Trials for the Heavy lift helicopters, also from the US and Russia, are due to begin within the next few weeks. Boeing is offering its twin-rotor Ch 47F Chinook and Russia, a reconfigured, newer version of its Mi 26 which IAF has been operating since the mid-1980s.

As for the SU 30 MKIs, it may be noted that their purchase of is a follow-on order, and also with a state-run company (Rososboronexport). Under the Indian laws, the acquisition process is much easier in this case than acquiring a system through commercial bids, for which global tenders or Request for Proposals (RfPs) have to be issued. Field Evaluation Trials have also to be carried out.

IAF&#8217;s request for 42 more Sukhois has already been accepted and cleared by the MoD. It is now awaiting the formal approval by the government&#8217;s Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS), headed by the Prime Minister.

IAF is short of combat and transport aircraft, combat and transport helicopters, utility helicopters, as well as various supporting systems and precision missiles. There is a need not only to replace the old Soviet vintage aircraft and systems but also to augment its strength with new, futuristic technologies.

To speed up the acquisition in some areas at least, IAF is following the government-to-government route, as in the case of C 17 Globemaster-III strategic airlifters. A request had been made to the Indian government in this regard in 2009 summer, and by now, the US government has accepted the Indian MoD&#8217;s Letter of Request (LoR) while IAF completed the validation trials in June 2010.

Discussions are on between the two governments now on what onboard equipment IAF wants, including spares, engines, training and support for the estimtated 40-year life of the 10 C 17s IAF wants, and then finally the price. Based on that, the US government will issue a Letter of Acceptance (LoA) under its Foreign Military Sales (FMS) programme. There will be 3.8 per cent FMS administrative fee.

IAF had ordered 80 Mi 17 IV helicopters from Russia last year, and their first lot is also expected by year-end, possibly in November.

The Chief of Air Staff of the Indian Air Force, Air Chief Marshal P V Naik, is keen for the modernization process to be over as soon as possible. IAF has been losing combat aircraft particularly due to the end of their Total Technical Life (TTL) over the last few years, and although the acquisition of SU 30 MKIs is helping make up, IAF needs to renew its inventory ASAP.

His views at the National Seminar on Aerospace Technologies (N-SAT) held by India Strategic in October 2009 should reflect the IAF thinking. He said:

"Aerospace operations have increasingly become the instrument of choice in conflict situations, as can be seen from the events of the past few years. They provide Reach, Speed of Response, Precision and a great deal of Flexibility options to our national leadership and it is therefore inevitable that there are ever-increasing expectations from aerospace power.

"I think you will all agree, that Military Aviation, more than any other activity, is highly dependent on technology. Superiority in the realm of aerospace is dictated by the employment of superior Technology coupled with Intelligent Tactics. There is simply no alternative to these two aspects.

I think you will all agree, that Military Aviation, more than any other activity, is highly dependent on technology. Superiority in the realm of aerospace is dictated by the employment of superior Technology coupled with Intelligent Tactics. There is simply no alternative to these two aspects.

There are though step-by-step plans to *transform the IAF by 2022, by which time it should have some 45 combat squadrons of SU 30 MKIs, MRCAs, FGFA (Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft), and LCAs (India&#8217;s indigenous Light Combat Aircraft).*

*Eventually, IAF could have some 300-plus SU 30 MKIs, an equal number of MRCAs &#8211; indigenously produced &#8211; and some 200 FGFAs besides 150 to 200 LCAs.* IAF has already ordered two squadrons of LCAs with GE 404 engines, and five more squadrons will be acquired with uprated engines, either Eurojet 200 or GE 414. These two engines are in a competition now.

*It may be noted that IAF&#8217;s MRCA tender is for 126 aircraft with an option for another 63. But in all likelihood, this figure should touch 300.*

As for the transport aircraft, IAF&#8217;s IL 76 and An 32 are under upgradation, and although the two have completed 25 and 26 years respectively, they have given good backup to IAF&#8217;s combat edge by supporting and supplying men and materials. IAF is now looking at 10 or more C 17s, possibly more Lockheed Martin C130J Super Hercules, and even the Alenia Aernautica C 27J Spartan, for which an RFI has been issued. (The first of the six C 130Js is due for delivery early 2011).

India and Russia already have an agreement to jointly produce a medium Multirole Transport Aircraft (MTA).

As for the FGFA, a formal agreement between New Delhi and Moscow is likely to be signed this year although cooperative measures have already been set in motion. IAF expects the two-seat version to be delivered by 2016 or 2017.

The Russian Air Force has already developed its single seat version for trials.

IAF is also looking for AWACs and mid-air refuelers, both of which use the old IL 76 airframes. The IL 76 is out or production and unavailable &#8211; China had bought 40 of its best available airframes &#8211; and IAF&#8217;s new AWACs should be on other airframes. The current AWACs on order are the Israeli Phalcons.

Source:

MRCA Trials Over IAF moves on to Helicopter Trials

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## soaringphnx

jha said:


> *Super Hornet mods added to export list*​
> 
> Boeing announced here yesterday a set of potential enhancements to the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet that it will market to export prospects. *They include an enclosed weapons pod that is intended to lower the aircraft&#8217;s radar cross section*. The countries currently evaluating or expressing interest in the Super Hornet include Brazil, Denmark, India, Japan, Kuwait, Malaysia, and Qatar.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are six elements to what Boeing calls the &#8220;Super Hornet International Road Map.&#8221; The first is already under development and was seen by AIN during a visit to St. Louis last month. This is *the Next Generation cockpit, which brings to the F-18 the large (11- by 19-inch) one-piece, touchscreen display, seen previously only on the Lockheed Martin F-35. Such a display helps improve the fused presentation of the integrated sensor suite that is already a big Super Hornet feature.* The new cockpit could be made available for deliveries in 2013, according to Shelley Lavender, Boeing&#8217;s vice-president Global Strike Systems.
> 
> The other enhancements would be available from 2015, she said. These include the enclosed weapons pod, which would be carried on the centerline station, and may possibly be partially faired into the fuselage. It is sized for four AIM-120 AMRAAMs, but can also take air-to-ground weapons. *According to Mike Gibbons, the Boeing F/A-18 program manager, an element of stealth was already designed into the Super Hornet. &#8220;We inserted some offerings from our Joint Strike Fighter proposal, in terms of shaping and materials,&#8221; he said in St Louis last month. Stealth on the aircraft is complemented by the active electronic warfare system* , he added.
> 
> Conformal fuel tanks can straddle the upper fuselage, and confer an additional 10 percent range, according to Lavender. *An enhanced performance engine (EPE) version of the GE F414 would provide a 20-percent increase in thrust. India has requested this extra power*. The final two enhancements on offer are *an internal IRST (infrared search and track) system, carried in the nose, and a spherical missile and laser warning system, housed above and (presumably also) below the airplane.*







connanxlrc1000 said:


>



Will these features be available for the Indian version or is it offered only for other future exports? If it is offered to India, were these features already available at the time of evaluation?


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## sancho

jha said:


> It also claimed that if the Russian MiG is kept out of the final phase, "there might be a decision to buy 50-60 of them outside the tender process.



Wasn't reduction of types the aim of IAF too, so rejecting the Mig from the competition, but buying some of them anyway, sounds not really logical to me. 



soaringphnx said:


> Will these features be available for the Indian version or is it offered only for other future exports? If it is offered to India, were these features already available at the time of evaluation?



As the report says:



> The new cockpit could be made available for deliveries in 2013, according to Shelley Lavender, Boeing&#8217;s vice-president Global Strike Systems.
> 
> The other enhancements would be available from 2015, she said. These include the enclosed weapons pod



So it fits to the timeframe of MMRCA (first squad in 2014, licence production in 2015) too, but it will depend on who will pay for the development, integration and tests. It won't be a new version like the F15 SE , but an upgrade that can be retrofitted on all F18SH, because the main aim is still the USN as the biggest operator of Super Hornets. I expect they will offer us to fund the upgrade and make it available for the USN like that too, because they seems to focus on F35 mainly (which causes enough trouble for them).

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## SpArK

*Italy's Eurofighter cancellation acts as radar catalyst*

FARNBOROUGH, England (MarketWatch) -- Italy's decision to cut the number of Eurofighter Typhoon combat jets it will order has no immediate financial impact for Finmeccanica SpA, but it could be a catalyst for the funding of a new radar system for the jet, the chief executive of the defense giant said in an interview.

Earlie this week, Italian defense minister Ignacio La Russa surprised the military brass at the Farnborough Airshow with news the country would reduce its planned order for the jet by 25 aircraft due to budget pressures, saving around 2 billion ($2.56 billion).

The Eurofighter Typhoon is built by a consortium that includes Italy's Finmeccanica , EADS ( and Britain's BAE Systems .

The four initial customer nations are Germany, Spain, Italy and the U.K. Italy's decision to cancel the last tranche of its order, which was not funded yet, means it will receive 96 aircraft instead of 121.



In an interview on the sidelines of the air show, Finmeccanica CEO Pier Francesco Guarguaglini stressed that the cancellation would have no near-term financial impact on the company.

"The cut has no impact right now or next year. During that time, if we start the program to improve the aircraft, we might be able to get new customers," he said late Wednesday.

*Italy's cancellation will put added pressure on the consortium to try and export the aircraft to other countries. India, for instance, is currently attracting offers from all around the world for a $12 billion contract for 126 fighter planes.
*
*In order to have a chance of winning that deal, however, the consortium must develop an electronic radar system -- known as Active Electronically Scanned Array Radar -- for the Eurofighter as an alternative to the mechanical one the current model is equipped with. The four European air forces that fly the Typhoon have no immediate requirement for an AESAR.*

"I assume they will go down the path of fitting an electronic radar. That will make it easier to sell the plane to export markets like India and Japan," Guarguaglini said.

*Euroradar, a multi-national consortium lead by SELEX Galileo, a Finmeccanica unit, makes the current mechanical radar on the jet and is starting the full-scale development of an AESAR.*

Beyond spurring the development of a new radar system, Italy's reduction of its order will have financial consequences.

Guarguaglini said the consortium would now start talks with the government about the cancellation fee it will have to pay.

While the penalties and compensations written in the umbrella contract signed by the four customer nations are still valid, Finmeccanica said it could not disclose them.

Finmeccanica 'confident' in Italian legal system

While Italy's Eurofighter cancellation comes as a disappointment to Finmeccanica, it may not be its biggest headache.

Over the past few weeks the company has been forced to repeatedly deny allegations of slush funds abroad and meetings between Guarguaglini and Rome businessman Gennaro Mokbel, who faces money-laundering charges in a probe by Italian prosecutors.

They are investigating whether Mokbel used a chain of holding companies to acquire a large stake in Digint with the help of a former Finmeccanica consultant, potentially using the stake to launder money, the Wall Street Journal reported earlier this month, citing people familiar with the matter.

Guarguaglini on Wednesday reiterated that the probe had no relation to Finmeccanica.

"I would like to point out that this investigation doesn't concern Finmeccanica. We only went in as person of interest," he said.

"We haven't done anything against the Italian law and are confident in the Italian justice system," he added.


Eurofighter cancellation acts as radar catalyst - MarketWatch


----------



## CONNAN

*BY EDITOR AT 22 JULY, 2010, 1:18 PM

BY: Express News Service*

With just a few months left for the Indian Air Force (IAF) to finalise a contract for supplying 126 medium multirole combat aircraft (MMRCA), foreign aircraft manufacturers in the race for the $10 billion deal are making some smart moves to woo the IAF.

At the ongoing Farnborough Air Show in UK, Lockheed Martin, which is offering its F16 IN Super Viper to replace the IAFs aging MiGs, would be showcasing the aerial refuelling device which it has codeveloped with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL). The aerial refuelling device which will be fitted on to one of the competing F16 fighter jets, will show off the US defence majors capabilities to some highprofile visitors from India. 

The Indian contingent is led by Minister of State for Defence M M Pallam Raju and includes top defence officials.Lockheed Martin would be counting on its collaboration with HAL to score some brownie points as the IAF has already said that transfer of technology and codevelopment will be counted as positives when the aircraft will be shortlisted in the final round. 

The IAF is looking to avoid a repeat of its problems with the Soviet manufactured MiG, for which indigenously developed spare parts are not available. Eurofighter on its part, announced on Tuesday that it has began full scale development of the GenNext Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar, which will be fitted to its Eurofighter Typhoon. Setting the target inservice date for this advanced radar at 2015, the defence giant said, Eurofighter is in the best possible position when offering Typhoon to the export market. 

The inservice date means we are perfectly positioned to respond to the complex and demanding requirements of the air forces.The other contenders for Indias biggest defence deal are Boeings F/A18, Russias MiG35, Dassaults Rafale and Saabs Gripen. All the six companies pitching for the deal have completed flight tests in India.


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## gogbot

Gripen Or Super bug


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## ironman

Friends, We all have discussed more than enough about the technical aspects of the contenders, which is actually a single part of the total procurement process. Here I'm posting an excellent article by Retd Air Marshal V.K.Bhatia to get an overall view about the complex procedure.


*In Progress​**
By Air Marshal (Retd)
V.K. Bhatia*


One of the most exhaustive and arduous flight evaluation trials conducted by the Indian Air Force (IAF) in its quest for selecting an Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) which had spilled over into the month of May appear to be finally over. It may be recalled that last year just prior to Indias Parliamentary Elections, the IAF had completed the Herculean task of technical evaluation of the responses to Indias request for proposal (RFP) from the six global bidders and submitted the report to the Defence Ministry. Subsequently, while the groundwork had commenced, it was evident that the next phase of the procurement procedure could be undertaken only after the elections and the formation of the new government at the Centre. *Flight Evaluation or field trials is just the fourth of the eight phases of DPP* (see table) but due to the UPAs return to power for the second term this phase thankfully was not overly delayed.



> *STAGES AS PER DPP ALREADY COMPLETED*
> 
> 1 Formulation of services Qualitative Requirements
> 2 Solicitation of offers
> 3 Technical Evaluation
> 4 Field Trial
> *STAGES TO GO*
> 
> 5 Staff Evaluations (probably completed by now)
> 6 Technical Oversight
> 7 Commercial Evaluation
> 8 Contract Singing and Management



To flight evaluate all competing aircraft, the IAF had chalked up a comprehensive programme involving tests at three different locations in India: technical and humid conditions tests in Bengalure; hot-weather desert trials in Jaisalmer, Rajasthan and Leh in Ladakh area of Jammu & Kashmir for the conduct of high-altitude trials where the terrain exceeds 10,000 ft amsl (above mean sea level). In addition, while the single-seat versions of the participating aircraft were planned to be conducted in India, the twin-seat versions as also selected weapons trials were to be carried out in the respective manufacturers country locations. _The bidding aircraft were also planned to be flight evaluated sequentially by the same sets of designated teams in India and abroad_. To refresh memories, the six competitors in the fray for Indias Rs 50,000 crore ($10 billion plus) mother of all defence deals are the Saab JAS-39 Gripen, Eurofighter Typhoon, Rafale from Dassault, Mikoyan MiG-35, Lockheed Martin F-16IN Super Viper and the Boeing F/A-18IN (a version of the Super Hornet).

In the event, the flight evaluation phase could commence only in August/September 2009. The task was nothing short of daunting but it must go to the credit of the IAF and the participating vendors that the flight testing phase could be completed within a couple of months spill over from the original schedule of March/April 2010. So what is next? Is this a good omen for the things to shape up better as far as sticking to the schedule is concerned?

Reportedly, the IAF is once again burning the proverbial midnight oil to complete the next stage of the countrys labourious Defence Procurement Procedure, i.e. staff evaluation, sifting through the immense sets of data it must have collected during the flight evaluation stage. And if it is able to actually complete this highly complex and difficult task within the scheduled timeframe and hand over the report to the Ministry of Defence (MoD) by June-end, it would indeed be a record of sorts. But would the recordbreaking efforts of the IAF help accelerate matters? Overall, the acquisition process has dragged on to such an extent as to call for rebidding as per the contract rules. On April 28, the MoD was forced to act under its own DPP rules in extending bids by a year, which in turn allows the vendors to revise the bids up or down. A years delay should normally drive the costs up by 5 to 7 per cent under normal circumstances, but the volatility factor could cause havoc to the vendors calculations. In view of the present day global economic uncertainties and the resulting fluctuations in inter-currency relationships, the volatility factor could take ominous proportions. For example, it is rumoured that the slide down in the value of Euro on the one hand and the fierce competition among the rival bidders on the other, may have made the European entries, namely the Eurofighter Typhoon and the Rafale,somewhat cheaper than before. However, it needs to be appreciated that in the long run, delays would inevitably raise the programme costs and prevent in-service induction of the winning aircraft on schedule.

In all probability, the IAF would have lived up to its selfmade promise of completing the staff evaluation phase by June end and handed over the report to the Technical Oversight Committee (TOC) for the next phase. It is expected that the TOC would do its bit with the same sense of urgency as the IAF because the remaining steps, especially the commercial evaluation and price negotiations are complex procedures that cannot be gone through in a hurry. However, at this stage, it can only be hoped that the final phases are completed without stagnation in negotiations. All in all, while assurances from various quarters that the MMRCA would be in service by 2014 might appear somewhat unrealistic, it is imperative that the deal is finalised expeditiously. The IAF cannot wait interminably for the much needed combat capability transfusion.

*--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*

*Followed by RFP details :* 



> A request for proposal (RFP) for the 126 combat jets was floated in August 2007 and all those invited responded with their proposals by April 2008. Since then authorities have been studying the copious amount of documents submitted, which in the case of some bidders runs into as many as 10,000 pages. Indias defense procurement process is definitely a game for the patient, and this was no exception. The Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) RFP caps a process that began in 2001, when the IAF sent out its request for information (RFI) for 126 jets. After delays lasting almost 2 years beyond the planned December 2005 issue date, Indias Ministry of Defence finally announced a formal Request for Proposal on Aug 28/07.
> 
> The RFP announcement estimated the program at a cost of Rs. 42,000 crores (about $10.24 billion as of the RFP date, or about $81.3 million per fighter). The 211-page document includes clauses for initial purchase, transfer of technology, licensed production, and life-time maintenance support for the aircraft. Under the terms of purchase, the first 18 aircraft will come in a fly away condition, while the remaining 108 will be manufactured under Transfer of Technology. Some reports add an option for an additional 64 aircraft on the same terms, bringing the total to 190 aircraft; DID is attempting to confirm this.
> 
> The vendors had 6 months to submit their proposals. Selection involves an exhaustive evaluation process as detailed in the Defence Procurement Procedures (DPP) 2006. First, submitted proposals will be technically evaluated by a professional team to check for compliance with IAFs operational requirements and other RFP conditions. Then extensive field trials evaluate aircraft performance. Finally, the short listed vendors commercial proposals are examined and compared. The defence ministrys Contract Negotiation Committee (CNC) would then hold discussions with the vendors before identifying their preferred manufacturer. Their report goes to the defence minister, who must forward it to the finance minister. After the file returns to the defence ministry, it goes for final approval to the cabinet committee on security (CCS).
> 
> This is not a speedy process. The selection process alone is likely to take at least 2 1/2 years, to be followed by lengthy price negotiations, and probably including delays along the way. *Most observers believe that delivery of any aircraft is unlikely before 2013.*
> 
> The vendor who finally wins will be required to undertake 50% offset obligations in India. Thats a boost from the usual 30%, which is required for Indian defense purchases over $70 million. The additional 20% was added because India is looking for a large boost to its aerospace and defense electronics industries, and understands that the size of their purchase gives them additional leverage. The Indian MoDs RFP release added that Foreign vendors would be provided great flexibility in effecting tie up with Indian partners for this purpose. It also says that:The aircraft are likely to be in service for over 40 years. Great care has been taken to ensure that only determinable factors, which do not lend themselves to any subjectivity, are included in the commercial selection model. The selection would be transparent and fair.
> 
> It may be recalled that the Defence Minister Shri A K Antony while chairing the Defence Acquisition Council Meeting on June 29, 2007 had outlined three guiding principles for this procurement scheme. First, the operational requirements of IAF should be fully met. Second, the selection process should be competitive, fair and transparent, so that best value for money is realized. Lastly, Indian defence industries should get an opportunity to grow to global scales."
> 
> *The RFP lays down that the first aircraft is supplied within 36 months of the contract being signed and the 18th within 48 months. The 19th aircraft, the first to be assembled in India, will come within 54 months. Thereafter, there will be an incremental increase with the last aircraft to be delivered by 2020.*
> 
> India MMRCA Programme - IAF Conducts Marathon Race for Jet Fighters


----------



## CONNAN

*PHOTO: Indian Delegation With The Gripen NG Demo At Farnborough 2010*
LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence: PHOTO: Indian Delegation With The Gripen NG Demo At Farnborough 2010







*The photograph shows Gripen India Campaign Director, Eddy de la Motte (2nd from left), Swedish Air Force Chief Gen Anders Silwer (3rd from left), Indian Minister of State for Defence Mr. M M Pallam Raju (4th from left), Brazilian Air Forces Chief Gen Juniti Saito (5th from left) and Secretary Defence Production Mr. R K Singh (6th from left) by the Gripen NG Demonstrator at Farnborough Air Show. Also seen is Air Marshal Sumit Mukerji, AOC-in-C, Southern Air Command (7th from left).*


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## CONNAN

*COMPLETE DEVELOPMENTAL HISTORY OF RAFALE FIGHTER TOTAL 10 FILES*

http://www.dassault-aviation.com/fileadmin/user_upload/redacteur/AUTRES_DOCS/Fox_three/Fox_Three_nr_1.pdf

http://www.dassault-aviation.com/fileadmin/user_upload/redacteur/AUTRES_DOCS/Fox_three/Fox_Three_nr_2.pdf

http://www.dassault-aviation.com/fileadmin/user_upload/redacteur/AUTRES_DOCS/Fox_three/Fox_Three_nr_3.pdf

http://www.dassault-aviation.com/fileadmin/user_upload/redacteur/AUTRES_DOCS/Fox_three/Fox_Three_nr_4.pdf

http://www.dassault-aviation.com/fileadmin/user_upload/redacteur/AUTRES_DOCS/Fox_three/Fox_Three_nr_5.pdf

http://www.dassault-aviation.com/fileadmin/user_upload/redacteur/AUTRES_DOCS/Fox_three/Fox_Three_nr_6.pdf

http://www.dassault-aviation.com/fileadmin/user_upload/redacteur/AUTRES_DOCS/Fox_three/Fox_Three_nr_7.pdf

http://www.dassault-aviation.com/fileadmin/user_upload/redacteur/AUTRES_DOCS/Fox_three/Fox_Three_nr_8.pdf

http://www.dassault-aviation.com/fileadmin/user_upload/redacteur/AUTRES_DOCS/Fox_three/FoxThree_N9.pdf

http://www.dassault-aviation.com/fileadmin/user_upload/redacteur/presse/lbg07/defense/rafale/foxThree_nr_10.pdf


----------



## CONNAN

*further developmental history files on rafale fighters*

http://www.dassault-aviation.com/fileadmin/user_upload/redacteur/Defence/Rafale/foxThree_n11.pdf

http://www.dassault-aviation.com/fileadmin/user_upload/redacteur/Defence/Rafale/foxThree_n12.pdf

http://www.dassault-aviation.com/fileadmin/user_upload/redacteur/Defence/Rafale/Fox_Three_N_14_UK2.pdf


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## SpArK

connanxlrc1000 said:


> *PHOTO: Indian Delegation With The Gripen NG Demo At Farnborough 2010*
> LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence: PHOTO: Indian Delegation With The Gripen NG Demo At Farnborough 2010
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *The photograph shows Gripen India Campaign Director, Eddy de la Motte (2nd from left), Swedish Air Force Chief Gen Anders Silwer (3rd from left), Indian Minister of State for Defence Mr. M M Pallam Raju (4th from left), Brazilian Air Forces Chief Gen Juniti Saito (5th from left) and Secretary Defence Production Mr. R K Singh (6th from left) by the Gripen NG Demonstrator at Farnborough Air Show. Also seen is Air Marshal Sumit Mukerji, AOC-in-C, Southern Air Command (7th from left).*



The whole bunch looks to be a happy lot. 
Will we be seeing a split MRCA with Grippen accommodated too??


----------



## CONNAN

*F18 SUPER HORNET*

http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/military/fa18ef/docs/EF_overview.pdf

http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/military/fa18ef/docs/EF_product.pdf


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## jha

Going by the trends ...IFF MRCA is split then it will be most probably EF+SH..


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## soaringphnx

jha said:


> Going by the trends ...IFF MRCA is split then it will be most probably EF+SH..



"IF" the deal is split, then IMO the best option will be Rafale + SH.


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## gowthamraj

Climax reaching with Rafale is a top contender


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## sudhir007

gowthamraj said:


> Climax reaching with Rafale is a top contender



But on the political way it will be super hornet


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## Iggy

A question..any body know,when did the weapons trial completed on MRCA??  no news about it..Then how come they say trial is over??


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## jha

*Russia's MiG-35 fighter completely meets Indian tender requirements - arms exporter*





Russia's MiG-35 Fulcrum-F jet fighter corresponds to all the requirements of an Indian tender aimed at acquiring a series of fighter jets, a department head for Russia's state-controlled arms exporter Rosoboronexport said on Monday.

Sergei Kornyev, the department head of Russia's Air Force's special equipment and services, made the announcement after the Farnborough Air Show outside London ended on Sunday.

In August 2007, India set an $11 billion tender for the delivery of 126 fighter aircraft. The world's largest aircraft manufacturers are bidding for the tender, including France's Dassault Aviation with its Rafale, U.S. Lockheed Martin with its F-16 Fighting Falcon and Boeing with the F-18 Super Hornet, Sweden's Saab with its most up-to-date Gripen aircraft, and the European Eurofighter offering the Typhoon.

"The requirements of the tender are quite rigid, but we have already held three evaluation tests, and we believe we have offered an aircraft which entirely corresponds to the tender requirements," Kornyev said.

Russia's MiG-35 Fulcrum-F is a highly maneuverable, single-seat multirole air superiority fighter, an export version of the MiG-29M OVT (Fulcrum F).The plane was first officially presented during the Aero India 2007 air show.

"Of course, the buyers will make the final decision. We are sure that we will participate in this tender until the end, and we hope we will win," Kornyev added.

The Farnborough Air Show was held on July 19-25 near London. About 1,350 companies and organizations from more than 50 countries, including some 60 Russian firms, took part in the air show. Russian air manufacturers have clinched deals worth over $10 billion, experts said.


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## soaringphnx

Guys, a simple question. If the F-18SH is selected, will we get the AIM 9x sidewinder missile? Can it be integrated on other aircraft (like Su-30MKI or FGFA) as well?


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## KEETARP

seiko said:


> A question..any body know,when did the weapons trial completed on MRCA??  no news about it..Then how come they say trial is over??



Hi , Seiko . 
Sorry for replying late - just saw your post . After Jha's update 
How was weekend ????

To your query , 
I posted every detail on weapon trials in some thread , can't find it now . Multiple thread opening on MRCA , its difficult to keep track .
Vayu , AWST & Flight-International covered it in detail . 

Anyways - Whole *weapon trial was completed in April* . Gripen NG was last one to complete .
Strangely Gripen NG completed weapon trial first in April , then Flight tests in May .
Let me post whatever detail is left, lucky that i kept some links ----Hmmmmmmmm

1)* For F16,F18 * , completed their trials in Feb 
second para in below AWST article , March/Feb edition of "Aviation week & Space"








*2)* *For Eurofighter * completed trials in April 

Eurofighter to quote price for IAF order-Politics/Nation-News-The Economic Times
11 , 12 and 2 para in the above link . Flight International had a complete article , i posted it also - Guess thread was either deleted / lost . 

*3) Gripen & Gripen NG * in April
Gripen's weapon trial were held in two phases - One weapon trial in India + One weapon trial in Sweden ( unique , only aircraft to do so )

8ak - Indian Defence News
fourth para , weapon drop in Jaisalmer + 1st para for trials in Sweden.




*4) Rafale * - Not the right person to answer , ask Sancho/Karthic . 

Rafale could have used Mirage to perform A2G laser designation . 
http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/66092-winner-mrca-time-place-ur-bets-9.html

Post no 125 onwards .......


*5) MIG 35 * completed testing in March 

3 Fighters with serial nos 
961, 967 and 154 took part 

Defunct Humanity: MiG-35's new pics, interpretation

22.04.10 ????????? ???-35 ???????????? - ??????? ???????

http://www.aex.ru/imgupl/Aviaindustria_02-10_fin_low.pdf

As per above link , for weapon trials AESA with 1280 modules was used .

confirmed by Igor 
Defunct Humanity: Jai hind!















May edition of AW&ST + May edition of "Take-off " + Air-fleet.ru & Air-Industry had it covered .

I don't have AWST may article to post , so I am cross-linking from BR forum 



> The latest AW&ST mag has some good details on the MiG-35 weapons trials in Russia in April (thanks Austin) by Maxim Padyushkin. They have, for the first time, demonstrated the test firing of a R-77 (RVV-AE) guided with target updates from the Zhuk-AE. They also demonstrated the use of the TV-guided KAB-500 bombs with target data being provided by the Zhuk-AE. The Russians demonstrated this to an IAF team which was present during the demos. And the R-77 being offered for the MRCA competition is the RVV-SD, the newer version of the R-77, with longer range of 110 km and heavier by 30 kgs or so. I'd expect the same for the K-74 as well.
> 
> As it turns out, Bort 961 is a single seater and Bort 967 is a twin seater and these two prototypes participated in the trials. A total of 18 sorties were undertaken during the weapons trials.



Bharat Rakshak &bull; View topic - MRCA News and Discussion

Go thru above link , nice info by one of members .

Reactions: Like Like:
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## KEETARP

soaringphnx said:


> Guys, a simple question. If the F-18SH is selected, will we get the AIM 9x sidewinder missile? Can it be integrated on other aircraft (like Su-30MKI or FGFA) as well?



First - 
India asked for AIM 9X-2 version , and firing was shown with 9x2 only .

Second - No 
US has never really allowed foreign armaments on their aircraft , or any Foreign aircraft to carry their missiles (except to Israel or NATO allies , Python5 etc on F16).

Plus even if you are hell bent upon this *technically* - 

-You need to have a NATO standard pylon since the electrical and cooling connectors for the Sidewinder wont work on the Russian pylons on the Su-30MKI/FGFA/Mig29 . 

- The serial buses in AIM-9X missile follow MIL-STD 1773 Fibre optic connection + Weapon controller on Western aircraft have Mil-Std 1760 Fibre optic connection .
While Russians have uniform Mil-Std 1553 non-fibre optic buses on Mig/Su so , giving target to missile and integration is hampered . 

PAk-FA will have Fibre optic buses , so will be easy to integrate . But i doubt rusians would allow it 

Previously 
R-73s were integrated with the Mirage-2000,
Magic-II was integrated with the MiG-21s , 
*but that time both had 1553 buses open architecture* .

Reactions: Like Like:
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## KS

PRATEEK said:


> *4) Rafale * - Not the right person to answer , ask Sancho/Karthic .
> 
> Rafale could have used Mirage to perform A2G laser designation .
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/66092-winner-mrca-time-place-ur-bets-9.html
> 
> Post no 125 onwards .......



Im not able to find any meaningful link giving the details as to which weapons where test fired or the exact date regarding Rafale.

And being in office with all those website access restrictions dont help either.


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## KEETARP

Karthic Sri said:


> Im not able to find any meaningful link giving the details as to which weapons where test fired or the exact date regarding Rafale.
> 
> And being in office with all those website access restrictions dont help either.



You know Karthic , 
I don't like Rafale even a single bit . 
Not bcoz Jet is poor *but Price and arrogance of France* , what they did when IAF was asking for Mirage upgrade . 
Instead of compromising & accommodating a good customer they simply diluted their package and gave reduced price based on inferior avionics & radar . 
Did same thing with Scorpene , - should never be forgiven . 

About weapon trials - 
*They did allow their Video-Game for Indian pilots *  

Ce jeudi deux officiers indiens ont volé sur Rafale...  - capitaine-romain



> Thursday, two Indian officers have flown the Rafale
> 
> Saturday, 20th of March 2010.
> 
> On Thursday 18th of March, two indian officers could discover and test by themselves all the qualities of Rafale.
> 
> After a briefing in the morning, the Indian pilot -very experimented, but alone onboard a plane which was new to him- could take off, intercept and identify a fighter with the help of the optronics of Rafale, engage several air-to-air targets at beyond visual range, shoot an AASM salvo -the new GPS guided french bomb- on targets discovered and realigned during the mission, before landing... All in a single hour simulated flight...
> 
> The two officers could check the realism of the simulator Rafale, using in a real two seater flight what they had learned during less than a daytime.
> 
> They left the 1/7 fighter squadron bluffed by the ease of use of our last fighter, and with a smile on their face.



LoL


----------



## KS

PRATEEK said:


> You know Karthic ,
> I don't like Rafale even a single bit .
> Not bcoz Jet is poor *but Price and arrogance of France* , what they did when IAF was asking for Mirage upgrade .
> Instead of compromising & accommodating a good customer they simply diluted their package and gave reduced price based on inferior avionics & radar .
> Did same thing with Scorpene , -* should never be forgiven *.



hmmm..but didn the Russkies do the same for Gorshkov..? UK did for Hawks and last but not least Americans who do it every now and then..?

Does that mean we should not forgive any of them??  

If we get a good machine now..better go for it than delving on past experience and AFAIK France has been a sanction free source for weapons.

Coming to cost,Yes the price is exorbitant but not as much the EFT.

I think it combines the excellent A2A of EFT and excellent A2G of SH albeit to a lesser extent in both and comes as a single platform.

Yes u may have ur concerns as valid as they mayb, but hey we r not selecting them..are we..? 

P.S.: If bad comes to worse and then to worst (Rafalre not selected) I would like to see the SH in Indian colors,not the EFT

And what do u think will be the American reliablity if India goes for the SH.? Ur opinion




PRATEEK said:


> About weapon trials -
> *They did allow their Video-Game for Indian pilots *



In addition to live firing as seen from the link..


----------



## KEETARP

> hmmm..but didn the Russkies do the same for Gorshkov..?



Ask ptldM3 , 
he wrote an excellent post plus there was some goof up from our side in Russia . Guess pictures were leaked on net as well . 
And now what we are getting is a different level equipment+ upgrade , than what was signed before . 



> UK did for Hawks and last but not least


Supplying wrong tools , Hmmmmmmmmmmm.
But they compromised as per latest news . Infact reduced price . 



> If we get a good machine now..better go for it than delving on past experience and AFAIK France has been a sanction free source for weapons.



If I give you list of American companies in Rafale parts + designing & manufacturing tools , 
you would probably run away from India to US .



> excellent A2G of SH



SH is excellent in A2A as well , maneuverability wise you can compare it to Vipers . Both designs were YF17,YF18/YF16 designed as maneuverable to counter migs. 



> And what do u think will be the American reliablity if India goes for the SH.? Ur opinion



We have come too far to have any concerns . If at all it has effect , ARMY will be more hit . 

Artillery Guns , Shells , CBU105 Cluster bombs , WLR - weapon locating radars , Strategic lift aircraft , Combat choppers , Lift helos ............. etc . 
We will be .............



> In addition to live firing as seen from the link..


Not from the link , link is for simulated flight only .........


----------



## Iggy

@Prateek ..No weekend for me yaar.i was at office on Sunday too.. 


And I had a chat with blackblood and during the chat he mentioned that Rafale were poorly performed against Pakistan Mirages and gave me a link too..unfortunately i am not able to save the link because of friend who restarted the pc..I will ask him for the link and will provide you..

Reactions: Like Like:
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## KS

PRATEEK said:


> We have come too far to have any concerns . If at all it has effect , ARMY will be more hit .
> 
> *Artillery Guns , Shells , CBU105 Cluster bombs , WLR - weapon locating radars ,* Strategic lift aircraft , Combat choppers , Lift helos ............. etc .
> We will be .............



bombs .shells etc are a wrong analogy Prateek..they r expendables.
And troop transport aircraft,lift helos relatively dont have much effect on a war as prime fighter planes. (correct me if im wrong).

Anyways ur dead set against Rafale and im dead set against EFT and Gripen....so lets agree to disagree here.



seiko said:


> *And I had a chat with blackblood and during the chat he mentioned that Rafale were poorly performed against Pakistan Mirages* and gave me a link too..unfortunately i am not able to save the link because of friend who restarted the pc..I will ask him for the link and will provide you..



Rafales fared poorly against PAF Mirage roses..? cmon man..it cant be true..


----------



## KEETARP

> And troop transport aircraft,lift helos relatively dont have much effect on a war as prime fighter planes.



COLD START dies before even starting 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_Start_(military_doctrine)

First point from above 

(Just hope , if you do happen to have some classified documents on Cold start doctrine , Plz go thru )



> bombs .shells etc are a wrong analogy Prateek..they r expendables



Hmmm, BOFORS /aka American & BAE now - Our Hero of Kargil . 

Only LUH can be effectively mobilized in quick time in mountains , Arjun s would be - Ahm 

*Mirage dropping Bomb on Peak- Tiger Hill had American Paveway Kit* + Spanish bomb . 

That changed the war 

Book extract from "Despatches From Kargil" By Srinjoy Chowdhury - Vayu Sena

There is a pic of Mirage (2nd last with ) US paveway kit . 

That was Laser guidance , 
today GPS - JDAM/AASM is at US mercy . 

Imagine we getting wrong GPS co-ordinates and correction relative to Enemy (Major Non-NATO ALLY)


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## KS

PRATEEK said:


> COLD START dies before even starting
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_Start_(military_doctrine)
> 
> First point from above
> 
> (Just hope , if you do happen to have some classified documents on Cold start doctrine , Plz go thru )



I said on a relative basis with fighter planes.



PRATEEK said:


> Hmmm, BOFORS /aka American & BAE now - Our Hero of Kargil .
> 
> Only LUH can be effectively mobilized in quick time in mountains , Arjun s would be - Ahm
> 
> *Mirage dropping Bomb on Peak- Tiger Hill had American Paveway Kit* + Spanish bomb .
> 
> That changed the war



Expendables in the sense once u acquire a bomb u cant put sanctions on the explosive inside.But are fighter planes like that.?


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## Iggy

I talked to Black blood now..it was a Dog fight between Rose Mirages and Rafale and Rafales performed very bad againt the Pakistan Mirages..he said he will dig up and provide us the link ..And also he said its long time ago..


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## Dash

> That was Laser guidance ,
> today GPS - JDAM/AASM is at US mercy .
> 
> Imagine we getting wrong GPS co-ordinates and correction relative to Enemy (Major Non-NATO ALLY)



So what guidance system Europe uses?


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## KEETARP

Dash said:


> So what guidance system Europe uses?



GPS , only . 

That was my point - Buying Europe dosen't give you autonomous guidance independent of Americans . 
You have to deal with US anyway whether you buy it from them or not .

Saying Rafale is better bcoz not American - Difficult to swallow . 

Even R73 uses Texas instrument's motor for its seeker . 

We have come too far to change our policy back wrt to US.

And we don't have capability to have GAGAN / GLONASS guidance for all our Smart munitions


----------



## CONNAN

*Russia&#8217;s MiG-35 fighter completely meets Indian tender requirements &#8211; arms exporter*

*BY EDITOR AT 26 JULY, 2010, 9:23 AM

BY: RIA Novosti*



Russia&#8217;s MiG-35 Fulcrum-F jet fighter corresponds to all the requirements of an Indian tender aimed at acquiring a series of fighter jets, a department head for Russia&#8217;s state-controlled arms exporter Rosoboronexport said on Monday.

Sergei Kornyev, the department head of Russia&#8217;s Air Force special equipment and services, made the announcement after the Farnborough Air Show outside London ended on Sunday.

In August 2007, India set an $11 billion tender for the delivery of 126 fighter aircraft. The world&#8217;s largest aircraft manufacturers are bidding for the tender, including France&#8217;s Dassault Aviation with its Rafale, U.S. Lockheed Martin with its F-16 Fighting Falcon and Boeing with the F-18 Super Hornet, Sweden&#8217;s Saab with its most up-to-date Gripen aircraft, and the European Eurofighter offering the Typhoon.

&#8220;The requirements of the tender are quite rigid, but we have already held three evaluation tests, and we believe we have offered an aircraft which entirely corresponds to the tender requirements,&#8221; Kornyev said.

Russia&#8217;s MiG-35 Fulcrum-F is a highly maneuverable, single-seat multirole air superiority fighter, an export version of the MiG-29M OVT (Fulcrum F).The plane was first officially presented during the Aero India 2007 air show.

&#8220;Of course, the buyers will make the final decision. We are sure that we will participate in this tender until the end, and we hope we will win,&#8221; Kornyev added.

The Farnborough Air Show was held on July 19-25 near London. About 1,350 companies and organizations from more than 50 countries, including some 60 Russian firms, took part in the air show. Russian air manufacturers have clinched deals worth over $10 billion, experts said


----------



## Dash

PRATEEK said:


> GPS , only .
> 
> That was my point - Buying Europe dosen't give you autonomous guidance independent of Americans .
> You have to deal with US anyway whether you buy it from them or not .
> 
> Saying Rafale is better bcoz not American - Difficult to swallow .
> 
> Even R73 uses Texas instrument's motor for its seeker .
> 
> We have come too far to change our policy back wrt to US.
> 
> And we don't have capability to have GAGAN / GLONASS guidance for all our Smart munitions


True, as far as navigation is concerned its all GPS.
BUt thats one aspect of it...Like you said wheather we buy American or US it will somehow be related to US...

In case of a real conflict with US itself, or any indirect conflict that damages US interest badly only we will see GPS rendering false co-ordinates.

like I said in my previous post somewhere, this act by US will direct expose it to live international fire...

Lets say we take Rafale (from a nutral point of view) or F-18 or Gripen. All will have GPS guidance system.

In the event of a war with Lets say Pakistan or China, GPS getting turned off or GPS giving wrong co-ordinates is Extremely remote coz you are directlly getting exposed to a double edged policy which US itself cant afford in South Asia and its political reactions will echo in middle east.

In case you are fearing that to happen (GPS mishap) then I say chances are not there.

By the way, GLONASS is also not trust worthy for certain reasons and you kow the reasons better than me. forget the accuracy part.

GAGAN was supposed to be a family of 13 sats right?.....Can we say buy 2025 we will have it up and running?...


----------



## ouiouiouiouiouioui

it will be eurofighter ofcourse 

and separate deal with russia for Mig35..its evident....and this thing will open up soon


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## Tejas-MkII

MMRCA Flight Eval Report Coming This Week | AVIATION WEEK

MMRCA Flight Eval Report Coming This Week

Jul 26, 2010 

By Anantha Krishnan M.
Bengaluru 


The flight evaluation report of the much-awaited multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) will be ready by the end of July.

Indian Air Force (IAF) chief Air Chief Marshal P.V. Naik told selected reporters in Bengaluru recently during the Defense Avionics Research Establishment (DARE) Raising Day celebrations that the $11 billion final contract for 126 aircraft would be signed within a year. Our selection will be based on technical evaluation and we submit the decision on that basis, Naik said. The IAF will submit its report to the Defense Ministry, which will then start the price-bid evaluation process.

He said the feedback from IAF pilots, who have test-flown the various contenders (the F/A-18 Super Hornet, F-16 Falcon, Gripen, Rafale, MiG-35 and Eurofighter Typhoon) has been satisfactory, although he declined to provide more details about any particular aircraft.

On another matter - the expected arrival of Russians for the Su-30 MKI upgradation - the air chief told AVIATION WEEK that everything is in place and as planned.

Concerning the Defense Research and Development Organization, Naik said that scientists must marry technology with the needs of changing times, and he wanted them to be one step ahead to give IAF cutting-edge capabilities. You should be telling us what you can give us. You should be setting the technology agenda for us, he said.

DARE has designed and developed complete avionics for MiG 27 aircraft that has been accepted by the IAF. The lab has also developed the Tarang radar warning receiver system on various airborne platforms, in addition to a missile approach warning system and multi-sensor warning system on Avro aircraft, as well as the Cheetah helicopter. The lab has also contributed extensively to the Su-30 MKI avionics suits.


----------



## gogbot

^^^^^ 

By end of July they mean sometime October


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## Archie

gogbot said:


> ^^^^^
> 
> By end of July they mean sometime October



No, what it means is that evaluation report will be submitted to MOD by end of july 
However u can expect a shortlist of 3 fighters to be announced by october-november
and the contract being signed by may 2011


----------



## sudhir007

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/site/Story/106816/India/$-10-bn-combat-jet-deal-eyes-strategic-leverage.html

The Indian Air Force is set to acquire 126 medium, multirole combat aircraft (MMRCA) and the current talk in the Vayu Sena Bhavan is to "leverage strategic gains" out of the $ 10-billion deal.

As the compilation of the flight test results nears completion, the process of hard bargaining is set to begin.

A senior air force officer told Mail Today: "We should use the deal to get concessions on enrichment technology, and accessing dual use technologies that we are denied at the moment." However, before negotiations on these aspects are addressed, a few steps need to be taken first.

The first shortlist for the six types of aircraft-MiG-35, Rafale, Gripen, Eurofighter, F-16 and F/A 18 Super Hornet - will be prepared by the air force on the basis of "complying with the operational requirements of the Indian Air Force", an official explained.

As is the norm, senior air force officers have remained mostly tight-lipped about which aircraft have or haven't made the cut in terms of fulfilling the operational requirements, although some information seems to have trickled out regarding the flight tests wherein one or two of these six aircraft failed to develop "enough thrust" in the high altitude tests held at Leh.

After the air force lists the aircraft that have complied with its "technical" requirements, the ministry of defence will judge the "offset compliance" of the selected manufacturers. In simple terms, that would mean how much of the money would be ploughed back into the Indian economy.

The 'offset' requirement for the MMRCA deal is 50 per cent. This means that close to $ 5 billion would have to be reinvested into India by the company winning the bid.

After this, the "commercial bids" of each would be opened by the defence ministry mandarins, who will, for the first time, examine the commercial offers made by the companies more than two years ago.

For the first time, a new system of costfixing has been introduced that not only takes into account the unit prices but also calculates the 'life cycle costs'-which takes into account the cost of maintenance and spares for the period, estimated at 40 years, the aircraft would remain operational.

On the basis of this, the lowest bidder (L1) would be determined by a commercial negotiation committee headed by an additional secretary of the ministry. The committee will also have members of the service headquarters of the army, navy and air force. They would then conduct price negotiations with the L1 bidder to improve upon the initial offer.

Finally, a paper would be prepared for the Cabinet Committee on Security that would have to give its seal of approval and award the contract. It is at this stage, before the contract is awarded, that government-to-government negotiations would be conducted to get the best additional benefits for the country.

The sheer size of the MMRCA deal ensures that India will get a high level of attention from each of country vying for the largest defence contract in recent memory.


----------



## KEETARP

> The 'offset' requirement for the MMRCA deal is *50 per cent*. This means that close to $ 5 billion would have to be reinvested into India by the company winning the bid.



This is where our Russian friends can not compete . Sad 



> although some information seems to have trickled out regarding the flight tests wherein one or two of these six aircraft failed to develop "enough thrust" in the high altitude tests held at Leh.



Only F18, Rafale could have this problem with Thrust 
( GE414-EPE esp asked by IAF and M88 is low from beginning ) .



> The Indian Air Force is set to acquire 126 medium, multirole combat aircraft (MMRCA) and the current talk in the Vayu Sena Bhavan is to "leverage strategic gains" out of the $ 10-billion deal.





> For the first time, a new system of costfixing has been introduced that not only takes into account the unit prices but also calculates the 'life cycle costs'-which takes into account the cost of maintenance and spares for the period, estimated at 40 years, the aircraft would remain operational.



Heee, these two contradict each other .
Strategic gain who better than Europe / America 

then this talk about Low operational cost is Bu*******t


----------



## Dash

> then this talk about Low operational cost is Bu*******t



It may be and may not be, you never know what will have an edge.
Our decisons can change at last minute.


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## KEETARP

Ok Sancho , here you Go about your F16 doubt .

I wrote a mail asking 

"What F16 EWS suite is part of F16-IN block70 package , Will it be similar to *Falcon Edge *of Block 60 or *AIDEWS* suite of standard USAF-Block52 "

Reply was , I am posting concerned part 



> Lockheed Martin intends to equip its F-16IN Super Viper with *Raytheon&#8217;s ACES* protection suite.



and this was attachment file - 

http://www.raytheon.com/capabilities/rtnwcm/groups/sas/documents/content/rtn_p_sas_aces_3.pdf


*Later to confirm about this and be sure , I searched on Google *

where I got this confirmation news + interview of Olive Prince 

Lockheed Martin plans Raytheon protection suite for F-16



> Lockheed Martin plans Raytheon protection suite for F-16
> 
> 2009-02-12 03:13:17
> Last Updated: 2009-02-12 09:26:33
> Bangalore: The race for the Indian Air Force (IAF) order for 126 combat jets just *got hotter with US defence major Lockheed Martin opting to equip its F-16IN Super Viper with electronics giant Raytheon's protection suite, which the company described as the &#8220;world's most advanced electronic warfare system&#8221;.
> The two companies announced the tie-up on the sidelines of the seventh edition of the Aero India international air show that opened here on Wednesday.*
> 
> *The advanced counter measures electronic system (ACES) comprises a radar-scanning receiver, a jammer and a chaff and flare dispenser, as well as a decoy that is towed behind the aircraft.*
> 
> &#8220;It is pretty exciting that Lockheed Martin has taken us for the entire system. What we offer is the world's most advanced electronic warfare system,&#8221; Mike Henchey, Raytheon's vice president for Space and Airborne Systems, said.
> 
> &#8220;Wonderful things are happening for India. This shows India has the opportunity to come to Raytheon for the most advanced systems to meet its needs,&#8221; he added.
> 
> 'No favouritism in fighter aircraft contract'
> 
> According to Orville Prins, Lockheed Martin's vice president for business development in India, Raytheon's electronic warfare systems &#8220;represent the latest technology and the best value solution for India&#8221;.
> 
> &#8220;The Raytheon aircraft self-protection equipment helps make Lockheed's Super Viper the right solution for India's air force,&#8221; he added.
> 
> The F-16 is one of the six aircraft in the fray for the IAF order. The others are the Boeing F/A-18 Super Hornet, the French Rafale, the Swedish Gripen, the Russian MiG-35 and the Eurofighter Typhoon built by a four-nation European conglomerate.
> 
> Special: Aero-India 2009
> 
> The tender was floated in 2007 and the bids were opened last April.
> 
> The field trials of the six aircraft are to begin soon and slated to last for a year as the jets have to be tested in a variety of climatic conditions ranging from the deserts of Rajasthan to the icy heights of Leh in Jammu and Kashmir.






*And this RWR has that capability which You and Me were worried about " Direction Finding capability " that only UAE would get this type of capability and performance *


I have links for that too , if you want I can post it here . 

Otherwise - we can continue thru P.mail as we have been doing for last few weeks .

Hmm , 
must say F16 Block 70 is slowly getting me . I am getting more and more impressed .

It would definitely be more advanced than Block 60


----------



## KEETARP

> It may be and may not be, you never know what will have an edge.
> Our decisons can change at last minute.



But talking about Strategic Gain + Low operational cost 
is like mixing Old-monk with Vat69 .

When you talk of Low operational cost - and plan to purchase Fighter like Typhoon,Hornet,Rafale ( They are *The most* costly to operate ) --------Laughable 

Low operational cost fits more to Gripen,F16 . 
But then asking Sweden to give you strategic gain - is like asking Beggar to give you some loan .


----------



## sancho

Sorry for beeing late, but I guess some corrections are needed here! 



PRATEEK said:


> Anyways - Whole *weapon trial was completed in April* . Gripen NG was last one to complete .
> Strangely *Gripen NG completed weapon trial first in April* , then Flight tests in May ...
> 
> ... Gripen & Gripen NG in April
> Gripen's weapon trial were held in two phases - One weapon trial in India + One weapon trial in Sweden ( unique , only aircraft to do so )
> 
> 8ak - Indian Defence News
> fourth para , weapon drop in Jaisalmer + 1st para for trials in Sweden.



Gripen D, not Gripen NG made all the tests (including the weapon tests) in the trials, which even your source confirms:



> To date, Saab has conducted about 20 flights in India, mostly in Bangalore's Aircraft Systems & Testing Establishment (ASTE) where *2 Gripen-D fighters* did low-level, high-speed supersonic tests. In Jaisalmer the 2 aircraft did a weapons release test and one aircraft sent to Leh did landing, engine cold start and take off with full internal fuel plus 2.6 tonnes external load.



From the official gripenindia site:



> *The D* restarted and took off from Leh with a loadout of 2.6 tonnes which included air to air missiles and underwing fuel tanks. The heat test went off very well in Jaisalmer. It meant placing the aircraft in the sun for a designated period of time, firing her up and flying her at maximum speed at low altitude while checking out all the systems. They also dropped a bomb flying out of Jaisalmer. They also did tanking ops...
> 
> ...*the Demo* will be here in mid May and *will likely do the Leh trip again* and anything that the Indian Air Force requests...
> 
> ...Indian Air Force pilots travel to Sweden in the next few days. They are *free to fly the Demo* there if they want *though they will be firing an AMRAAM off a D platform*.



So weapon tests *only* with the Gripen D (be it in India, or Sweden) and the Gripen NG did *only* flight tests at Leh!




PRATEEK said:


> 4) Rafale - Not the right person to answer , ask Sancho/Karthic .
> 
> Rafale could have used Mirage to perform A2G laser designation .
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/66092-winner-mrca-time-place-ur-bets-9.html
> 
> Post no 125 onwards .......



Regarding Rafale performance during the trials, since last year I'm trying anything to find out something about it, but the only report say it came with a working AESA radar and the only pics shows it even in clean config only.

Regarding Santros post, no offense, but he obviously does not no much about the Rafale, or its performance in the mentioned competitions. The fact that Rafale was shortlisted to the final stage in any competitions it attended (unlike the EF!), should make clear that it came out with good rankings in the technical evaluations and actually placed pretty good. Same goes for Swiss, or Brazil at the moment and I expect the same in India to, but at the end, anything depends on political benefits!
He mentioned that Rafale must be Mirage fighters for designation in Afghanistan in 2007, which is true, because the Rafale F2s didn't integrated the damocles targeting pod. That was possible only with the actual F3 version from 2008 onwards and according to latest reports (interview with a French airforce pilot), the integration is close to be done and French Rafales will be equipped with Damocles by end of this year, to be deployed in Afghanistan next year.

As you can see on the following pics, Rafale with Damocles pod was fielded in the trials in Switzerland in *oct 2008*, which means they did the same for sure in India last year:


















Btw, finaly you admit the reason why you are bashing the Rafale, or the French all the time :



PRATEEK said:


> You know Karthic ,
> *I don't like Rafale even a single bit .
> Not bcoz Jet is poor but Price and arrogance of France *, what they did when IAF was asking for Mirage upgrade .
> Instead of compromising & accommodating a good customer they simply diluted their package and gave reduced price based on inferior avionics & radar .
> Did same thing with Scorpene , - should never be forgiven .



Karthic and Dash already gave you some good points, but just to remind some things.

Russia:

- Groshkov and Nerpa delayed 
- Groshkov refurbishment and Mig 29K price increase
- A50 Phalcon delayed, additional could be more expensive
- Mig 35 development delayed 
- New upgraded MKI estimated at twice the costs as older versions


Israel:

- twice the cost for Phalcon AWACS than proposed to China
- delays in integration of Phalcon system and delivery to India


UK:

- delayes, as well as wrong parts and tools for HAWK trainer 


USA:

- wrong delivery of Paveway 2 kits during Kargil War
- no spares for Sea King helicopters
- delays in Shivalik class development, because US State Department production of LM 2500 engines
- several issues regarding EUM, or CISOMA
- cost increase for C17s for India


And that's only the points that came to my mind now, I'm sure I missed some points. As you can see, high costs, delays, or other problems are not unique for France only, they all are the same, would you reject FGFA, because Russia increased the price for MKI now?


----------



## sancho

PRATEEK said:


> I have links for that too , if you want I can post it here .
> 
> Otherwise - we can continue thru P.mail as we have been doing for last few weeks .



Sure you can send me the links, I will reply to your last PM as soon as possible to, just didn't had the time in the last days.


----------



## marcos98

*Questions and answers about the program Gripen NG*

*The Gripen NG is a plane?*

NO. Gripen NG or 'Next Generation' is the name of the program has two basic goals: to generate a new version of the popular game of Saab and develop new technologies that can be incorporated into the current fleet of Gripen. 
*
Gripen Demo and Gripen NG is the same thing?*

The Gripen Demo was originally a two-seater JAS 39B (registration 39-803) which was converted into the standard 39D and has now been partially reconstructed to test new structural improvements, new technologies and new concepts.
*
Why the Gripen Demo is not a prototype?*

For several reasons. One of them was and remains the ability to test new equipment, sensors and technologies that will be used in upgrades of older models (versions A / B / C / D). In addition, the Gripen Demo was rebuilt to serve as a test platform for the future generation of aircraft, versions of which will indicate the E (single seat) and F (two seat).
*
There are external differences between the Gripen NG and the older versions?*

YES, there are several differences, but very subtle. The main structural change is at the bottom of the fuselage.A new main landing gear was built, improving the internal fuel capacity of the aircraft. This change has left more rounded fuselage bottom and allowed the incorporation of two more stations (racks) for armaments.Other details include the new air intakes of the engine compartment door tailwheel modified and slight increase in magnitude.
*
Structural changes have left the Gripen Demo heavier than previous versions?*

YES. For the single-seat version of the Gripen Demo is expected an increase of 200kg on the empty weight of the aircraft. But with the introduction of the new engine (a GE F414G) The airplane got nearly 22% more power and, in practice, you can take off with more than 1.800kg payload than the previous version.

*As the scope of the Gripen Demo may have increased both the maximum weight has increased?*
There are two basic reasons for this The first is structural in nature. The repositioning of the main landing gear allowed the introduction of a new fuel tank with a capacity of 960kg, bringing total internal to 3360kg (or 40% more).Secondly the new F414G engine has an intake much better than its predecessor.
In transportation, the maximum range with external tanks and no refueling reaches 4000km and the range of action in typical mission intercept (point 30 minutes 'on the station') will be around 1300km.
*
The Swedish Air Force will buy the new generation Gripen?*
YES. However, the Swedish Air Force can operate its current models until 2015/2017 and that a version of the Gripen would be necessary only after this date. But Saab has announced that the Swedish Air Force intends to purchase in advance the next generation of game if a country decided to buy it.


----------



## sudhir007

Towards a holistic relationship

The 126-fighter jet deal has political overtones and cameron is likely to push its case strongly with the Indian leadership

British prime minister David Cameron will miss Myanmar&#8217;s military ruler Than Shwe by a mere day during his visit to India, but both leaders have weapons on their minds: *Trials for India&#8217;s 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) deal, worth $12 billion, concluded earlier this month, and it is said the news is &#8220;good&#8221; for the Eurofighter* Typhoon &#8212; a joint production of the UK, Germany, Italy and Spain &#8212; compared to its Swedish (Saab Gripen IN), Russian (MiG-35), French (Dassault Rafale) and US (Lockheed Martin&#8217;s F-16 and Boeing&#8217;s F/A Super Hornet) rivals.

In these testing times of recession, the award of the 126-fighter jet deal to any of these countries will not only significantly bump up its bottom line, it will also effectively send out a signal to the nation on which India wants to bestow her affection. That is why this deal has strong political overtones &#8212; and Cameron is unlikely to lose an opportunity to push its case with the Indian leadership.

With Britain likely to post a mere 2.6 per cent growth rate this year, Cameron knows he&#8217;s got to kick-start the economy. Britain must live up to its reputation of being the world&#8217;s biggest shop-keeper by not only finding more creative ways of pursuing trade and inward investment, but also reorient foreign policy tools such as international aid.

*That is why the acquisition by Tata Steel of Corus, worth &#163; 6.7 billion when it was concluded in 2007, then India&#8217;s largest deal, and by Tata Motors of Jaguar Land Rover (JLR), worth &#163; 1.15 billion, are always the focus of such attention. Tata employs 15,000 people at JLR&#8217;s three factories in the UK and believes that expansion into new markets, such as China, could sustain growth and minimise losses (although Corus had to lay off 3,000 jobs at its factory in Teesside).*

R Gopalakrishnan, executive director of Tata Sons, discounted rumours of despondency in the UK market. &#8220;We are perfectly happy with our acquisitions. Both Corus and JLR are in their second or third year, we are not looking at making money so far. Moreover, we have no reason to regret the acquisitions,&#8221; he said.

Asked what strategic value the Tatas would have gained from investing such large sums of money in Britain, Gopalakrishnan agreed that Britain &#8220;had reached its peak decades ago, but the fact remained that it was an easy country to work in.&#8221; Moreover, he added, it&#8217;s not as if the Tatas decided one fine morning that they were going into the UK &#8212; it was a combination of factors that resulted in their doing so. &#8220;The strategic intent was to grow the international business, UK didn&#8217;t happen by design,&#8221; he added.

Among its assets, Gopalakrishnan counted off the English language, a good insight into Anglo-America as well as easier access into &#8220;new geographies&#8221; like the former Eastern Europe and China. (Over the last year, the Tatas have sold $3.6 billion worth of goods to China, including Jaguar cars.)

And, he added, Britain may look jaded on several counts, but it &#8220;still has very high-quality engineering skills.&#8221;

That may well be why bilateral trade is currently pegged at a respectable $12 billion (some say it has the capacity to reach $40 billion by the end of the decade), and that Britain, which was India&#8217;s second largest trading partner until 2002, has since been overtaken by China (due mostly to the import of iron ore from India), the UAE (Gulf trade) and Belgium (diamonds). But India remains the UK&#8217;s largest export market in the developing world, ahead of China.

FDI inflows from the UK into India are still weak, however, and focussed on oil and natural gas (Cairns) and telecom (Vodafone acquiring Hutch). New areas such as IT (India is the second largest presence from Asia in terms of projects) and bio-technology are gathering their spurs; Astra Zeneca has established an R&D centre in Bangalore, while Cairns Energy, Shell and British Gas have promised to speed up investment.

Britain&#8217;s loss as India&#8217;s pre-eminent political partner in recent decades has meant heightened interest in the US &#8212; especially after the Bush administration slam-dunked India to de facto nuclear power status &#8212; and increasingly, a wary circling of China. In recent weeks, with Delhi&#8217;s request to Moscow for enrichment and reprocessing technologies for use in the several nuclear plants that nations like France, Russia &#8212; and in the near future, the US &#8212; are going to be building in India, Britain&#8217;s own nuclear cooperation deal with India seems like a minnow among the whales.

British diplomats admit that British companies are willing to supply the full range of components that make up a nuclear plant, short of the nuclear reactor itself, such as turbines which go into the French Areva reactors; an MOU with L&T was signed in February for the manufacture of these turbines.

The message, said a well-placed British source, is that the UK is &#8220;much more open and communicative to India&#8221; after the passage of the India nuclear deal through the Nuclear Suppliers Group in 2008.

The British source pointed out that Cameron&#8217;s UK is focussed on areas like education, climate change and defence ties. India and the UK already have as many as 400 tie-ups in higher education, including the training of faculty, joint programmes and the building of research bases. &#8220;We are interested in educating India&#8217;s youth bulge, as it were,&#8221; he said.

But with India&#8217;s neighbourhood in such ferment, Indian diplomats say the time may have come for its friends around the globe to stand up and be counted on issues that matter to Delhi. On the question of terrorism, for example, Indian and British officials have often differed on interpretations between militants and freedom-fighters, with London persisting with imparting human rights to terrorists.

Things have often come to a head over Afghanistan-Pakistan issues, and in fact, even David Headley's confession to interrogators over the Pakistan intelligence agency, ISI&#8217;s involvement in the attacks, are being taken with a pinch of salt in London.

Moreover, as Gopalakrishnan pointed out, governments often tend to compartmentalise issues like security, labour, migration, climate change, trade and investment, and the time may have come to rebuild the whole, which is more than a sum of its parts.

&#8220;There is a great opportunity to build a relationship which is far more holistic. It hasn&#8217;t happened yet, but it certainly needs to,&#8221; Gopalakrishnan added.


----------



## KEETARP

> So weapon tests only with the Gripen D (be it in India, or Sweden) and the *Gripen NG did only flight tests at Leh!*



Bold part , Heeeeeeeee . 
Sancho arguing about Gripen with me ,.............Hmmm

LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence: FLASH! Gripen Demo Clears Leh Trials!



> Air Force sources confirmed to LiveFist that the aircraft went through the *full routine of tests that the Gripen-D did earlier this year*. *IAF pilots already got a chance to fly the Gripen Demo in the first week of April at Linkoping*, Sweden, but calling the Demo airplane to India was necessary to complete all the demands in the field evaluation test (FET) plan.



First
So what tests Gripen D took in India was matched by Gripen NG 

Second 
you were wrong that Gripen NG only took tests in India . As I showed above and wrote earlier in some thread - when Volcanic ash was covering Europe ,IAF team flew Gripen NG and did all tests + weapon drop in Sweden . Then Gripen NG came to India where again Weapon trial was held 

Third 
To remove any doubt that April flight was for Familarity - IAF first tested the simulator , technical characteristic + Feel of aircraft to become familiar in NOV-2009 of Gripen NG in Sweden .

Period .........




> Russia:
> 
> - Groshkov and Nerpa delayed
> - Groshkov refurbishment and Mig 29K price increase
> - A50 Phalcon delayed, additional could be more expensive
> - Mig 35 development delayed
> - New upgraded MKI estimated at twice the costs as older versions



Ptldm3 wrote an excellent post about Gorshkov - 

Nerpa - for obvious , Valid reasons . 

Mig29K price ......Hmmm- 1.5 bill for 29 jets , that is quite cheap . Considering 10pc increase every year in price of weapons happen . we first bought 16 in 2003 . Calculation would be good . 

A50 Phalcon delayed, additional *could be* more expensive - Delayed yes , but expensive have to see how much more ( 10% law applied)

Mig 35 development delayed - But still as promised production will be started by 2013-014 , considering financial situation of Mig . As I said earlier if IAF agrees to unified airframe based on K (logically too ) . This could be done earlier as well . Nevertheless still much ahead of Eurofighter .

New upgraded MKI estimated at twice the costs as older versions -- Never know what additional package is hidden behind this new deal . May be tech transfer for Arihant / tech for ISRO vehicle + new system for MKI . This is how Russians have always dealt . Only ones who actually support us . 



> Israel:
> 
> - twice the cost for Phalcon AWACS than proposed to China
> - delays in integration of Phalcon system and delivery to India



AWACS delayed bcoz of A50 airframe from Ukraine , not Israel . 
Not sure about price of chins v India - Link would be appreciated 



> UK:
> 
> - delayes, as well as wrong parts and tools for HAWK trainer



But all solved in time and BAE compromised unlike ................who kept on exploiting IAF as they saw we are in bad need of upgrade .


----------



## jha

(courtesy pogularocky )


----------



## jha

^^^ It seems RAFALE really sucks in TWR.. O.8 TWR is really low (iff the specs are true..)


----------



## deepakclaw

jha said:


> (courtesy pogularocky )



sir does mig 35 cost >60mil?
su 30mki itself wont cost much sir..


----------



## TheIndianJatt

deepakclaw said:


> sir does mig 35 cost >60mil?
> su 30mki itself wont cost much sir..



he isnt a dealer himself


----------



## sancho

jha said:


> ^^^ It seems RAFALE really sucks in TWR.. O.8 TWR is really low (iff the specs are true..)



Hi Jha, a statistic is only as good as the numbers in it and this is full of wrong specs!

Rafale single seat has an empty weight of 9t (10t is the weight of the carrier version), comparable to F16IN and both also have an AB thrust of around 150kN, so how could the T/W ratios so different? Moreover, in it shows that the F16IN even has a better T/W ration than the EF and can SC!
The combat radius of EF is nearly twice as good as of F18SH? F18SH is given with the not developed GE 414 EPE engine and Gripen NG emptyweight is given with 6t (in reality 7.1t) and with the Vixen 500 radar only, not the Vixen 1000.

Simply too many mistakes to make it reliable!



deepakclaw said:


> sir does mig 35 cost >60mil?
> su 30mki itself wont cost much sir..



We payed around $46 millions for the Mig 29Ks, Mig 35 with AESA and TVC should indeed be more expensive and the upgraded MKIs with AESA are said to cost even $80 millions each. However, these are estimation only, we will have to wait for reliable figures.


----------



## sancho

PRATEEK said:


> Bold part , Heeeeeeeee .
> Sancho arguing about Gripen with me ,.............Hmmm
> 
> LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence: FLASH! Gripen Demo Clears Leh Trials!



Buddy you missed the important part of the headline! As it said Gripen Demo *did the Leh trials*, which were flight trials with heavier loads, in very harsh conditions, but did not include weapon tests. So Gripen Demo did the same Leh trials that the D did there before too and that's what *your earlier source* said too.
Gripen NG so far is only a demostrator, it don't has weapons integrated, or is able to use them. Even the radar is just for demostration reasons only, but not the real version that will be in the final Gripen E/Fs.

Here another report about it:



> Earlier this year an in-country evaluation of the Gripen NG was successfully completed, with the deployment representing the demonstrator aircraft's first international commitment.
> 
> The aircraft left Linköping on 17 May and the following day completed its ferry flight to Jamnagar via refuelling stops in Kecskemet (Hungary), Athens (Greece), Hurgada (Egypt), Riyadh (Saudi Arabia) and Muscat (Oman).
> 
> *Trials were made in the harsh environmental conditions at Leh air base*, 10,800ft above sea level in the Himalayas. During the day, the temperature was as high as 49°C (120°F).
> 
> "The aircraft was loaded with full fuel tanks and IRIS-T missiles. Eight sorties were made in India, both by Swedish and Indian air force pilots," de la Motte says.
> 
> The evaluations included in-flight refuelling with an Ilyushin Il-78MKI tanker, and engine ground runs and restarts were also performed, with to problems were reported. The Gripen NG returned to Sweden on 22-23 May.



FARNBOROUGH: Saab plots bright future for Gripen programme

As you can see no weapon trials with the NG and as mentioned in the earlier sources, even in Sweden weapon trials only possible with Gripen D.

When Saab send the D's to India, I stated that this is a big problem, because although they will be able to do the trials, these are not the fighters that are on offer to us and IAF can't get a hint of the real performance. Saab is the only vendor that was not able to send at least a prototype version to do the trials! Mig 35 also available only as prototypes and not fully developed of course, still did the full trials and they did not send just Mig SMTs. You see the difference right? 
Btw that is what the gentleman from the key forum said too, that IAF is still discussing about the Gripen NG, because the requirement was, that the fighter that is on offer should do the trials, not an earlier version.
If Saab did not send the NG at least for the Leh flight trials, I am pretty sure they would be disqualified.
I still would choose it over the EF, or Mig 35, but the more I read about it from Brazil, or other competitions, the more I think it is a risk. Also in terms of maturity, by far not what you believe it is, but I will explain it in the PM.




PRATEEK said:


> AWACS delayed bcoz of A50 airframe from Ukraine , not Israel .
> Not sure about price of chins v India - Link would be appreciated



No need to talk further about it, I just pointed out that we face the same problems with nearly all countires.
Because you asked for a source about the A50s cost, which even is 4 times higher:



> *India pays dearly for poorly negotiated arms deals*
> 
> It has recently been reported in the Israeli press that India paid more than double the amount for the purchase of three AWACS aircraft from Israel in March 2004. These aircraft were earlier being sold to China for US $358 million but the deal had to be aborted under US pressure. Subsequently, India agreed to buy them for US $1.1 billion*a whopping US $742 million more than the price agreed to by the Chinese.*



India pays dearly for poorly negotiated arms deals | Indian Defence Review

And AWACS was not only delayed from the Russian side, but also from Israel, that's why Minister Anthony openly criticised both sides to keep delivery dates!



> *Antony 'anxious' to get timely delivery of defence procurements*
> 
> Defence Minister A K Antony on Thursday said that he was 'anxious' to get timely delivery of defence procurements as it controls rise in costs, and wants suppliers to fulfil their commitment in time.
> 
> "*I conveyed my anxieties to both of them, Israeli and Russian ambassadors*, here that they will deliver the remaining two AWACS in time. The anxiety is not country centric," Antony said after inducting the first of the three airborne early warning and control systems (AWACS) in the Indian Air Force...



Antony 'anxious' to get timely delivery of defence procurements


----------



## dbc

sancho said:


> the F16IN even has a better T/W ration than the EF and can SC!



Clean config F-16 can supercruise.


----------



## sancho

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Clean config F-16 can supercruise.



Even LM statet that it hardly achieve mach 1.1 and not for long, that's why they don't count it as SC capability.


----------



## deepakclaw

is the cost of f 16in been disclosed?
last time i heard i has not been.
can any one provide onfo on this plz


----------



## dbc

sancho said:


> Even LM statet that it hardly achieve mach 1.1 and not for long, that's why they don't count it as SC capability.



Wrong, SC only counts when you can do so carrying weapons. By definition, none of the MRCA contenders can SC, the Typhoon is perhaps in a grey area where it may be able to SC with two AA missiles.

Like I said before the F-16 can SC clean - but it doesn't count.


----------



## amit27

Those figures are wrong $30 million for the f16 viper block 60? lol dont make me laugh


----------



## KEETARP

One 
to show - that your source was just guessing when he said Mig35 failed trials .

Mig35 passed all tests , and it was confirmed by Rosoboronexport yesterday .

MiG-35 passou em todos os testes na &#205;ndia | Poder A&#233;reo - Informa&#231;&#227;o e Discuss&#227;o sobre Avia&#231;&#227;o Militar e Civil



> Russian authorities reported on Monday that the fighter MiG-35 passed all the technical evaluations made by the Indian Air Force and meets all the requirements that force for competition MMRCA.



Now upto you whether to believe this Person or not , he is simply biased for Rafale nothing else and cooking his own ideas that he knows MRCA trial reports .



> Buddy you missed the important part of the headline! As it said Gripen Demo did the Leh trials,



You said Gripen did only Leh trials , there was no testing in Sweden ?????

This is from Link 



> *IAF pilots already got a chance to fly the Gripen Demo in the first week of April at Linkoping, Sweden,* but calling the Demo airplane to India was necessary to complete all the demands in the field evaluation test (FET) plan.



So , Yes Gripen NG / Demo was in fact tested in Sweden by IAF pilots . But whether they used it for Missile firing is a big ???????
I agree with your point that Gripen NG is still testing the integration of radar guided missile . 
But my info / source say Gripen dropped Bombs in a weapon demonstration . How did they do it - I am unaware ( May be by Pod only )



> So Gripen Demo did the same Leh trials that the D did there before too and that's what your earlier source said too.



No not only Lehb , but all tests req to be done in India 



> Air Force sources confirmed to LiveFist that the aircraft went through *the full routine of tests that the Gripen-D did earlier this year*.



To add 

Empty weight of Rafale 
Twin seater is 9.75 , 
single seater is 9.5 & 
M version is more than 10.1 . 

F3+ version or Indian version may have added weight depending upon new Equipments added in 2012 . 

So yes add 4 of Fuel - We have 9.7+4 = 13.7 
add Combat load of just 3000 Kg( 2 Mica RGM + 2 MiCA IR + 6 Paveway IV 500 lbs ) weight becomes = 13.7+3 = 16.7 
Thrust is 7.5 * 2 = 15 at full afterburner 

15 * 10 / 16.7 * 9.8 at full afterburner comes < 1 

As I said until they get thrust to at-least 180 KN in afterburner . 




> By definition, none of the MRCA contenders can SC, the Typhoon is perhaps in a grey area where it may be able to SC with two AA missiles.



Gripen supercruises at M1.2 with A2A load of four missiles


----------



## &#1052;&#1080;&#1043;-29

My favs are Mig-35 followed by Eurofighter & then Rafale. The others are simply too risky given the fact that the aircraft's country has a habit of throwing its weight around and expect others to follow its lead(It's bad enough LCA is caught). If they don't well, we all know what happened to Pakistan.

Edit:
As for the Thrust to weight ratios-

*TWR or T/W ratio = (Max Thrust of Engine / (Empty Weight + (3.505 Tonnes of Fuel & Weapons, or only Internal Fuel)))

1.30 - Su-35BM
1.29 - F-15K
1.26 - Su-27S
1.25 - Eurofighter
1.24 - Mig-35
1.23 - Su-27SK & J-11A
1.19 - Rafale C
1.19 - Mig-29M/M2
1.19 - F-15C
1.18 - F-22 (T/W = 1.37 with Round nozzles)

1.16 - Su-30MKK
1.15 - F/A-18E/F
1.15 - Mig-29B (9-12)
1.14 - Su-30MKI
1.13 - Rafale M
1.13 - Mig-29 (9-13), S, SD, SE & SM
1.10 - Mig-29 BM & SMT (T/W = 1.15 during Emergency Thrust*)
1.09 - F-16E Block 60
1.09 - Mig-29K
1.09 - F-18C

1.09 - J-8III(or J-8C)
1.08 - F-35A
1.08 - F-14 B & D
1.06 - F-16C Block 52 (Block 50: T/W = 1.055)
1.05 - J-8IIm
1.04 - AV-8B+ Harrier II
1.03 - F-2A (F-2B: 1.02)
1.03 - JH-7
1.02 - F-16A Block 10
1.01 - J-8II & J-8IIb & J-8IId

1.00 - F-35B
1.00 - Harrier GR7A
0.99 - Su-34 & Su-32FN & Su-27IB
0.99 - Sea Harrier FA2 & FRS51
0.99 - F-16A Block 20
0.98 - J-10A
0.97 - Su-15T
0.95 - MiG-23 P, ML, MLA & MLD
0.94 - F-35C
0.94 - Gripen NG

0.94 - F-4E
0.94 - J-8
0.93 - Mirage 2000-5
0.93 - Su-15TM
0.93 - F-101B
0.92 - Harrier GR7
0.92 - E E Lightning F6
0.91 - F-16C Block 25
0.91 - Yak-28 I & P
0.91 - F-111F

0.91 - Su-24
0.90 - Su-15
0.88 - Mirage-2000 C & H
0.87 - LCA
0.87 - F-14A
0.87 - Mig-23 MF & MS
0.87 - Su-24 M, MK & M2
0.86 - FCK-1
0.86 - Su-9
0.84 - Su-11

0.84 - Su-17M
0.83 - Tornado F3 Air Defence Variant
0.83 - Tornado GR1
0.83 - Su-20
0.82 - JF-17 (T/W = 0.86 during Emergency Thrust*)
0.82 - Su-22
0.81 - Gripen A
0.81 - Su-7B
0.81 - F-20
0.80 - Gripen C

0.80 - Mig-27K
0.80 - Su-7BM
0.79 - Mig-21 Bis (T/W = 1.11 in Emergency Thrust mode**)
0.79 - JA-37 Viggen
0.79 - Mig-27
0.79 - Su-17M2
0.78 - Mig-23BN
0.78 - Su-7 BKL & BMK
0.78 - Javelin FAW MK9
0.77 - Mig-23S

0.77 - J-7IIIa
0.76 - Mig-27 D & ML
0.76 - Mig-23M(E)
0.76 - F-106A
0.76 - F-7MG & F-7BG & F-7PG & J-7E & J-7G (WP-7N: T/W = 0.69)
0.76 - Q-5D
0.75 - Kfir C.7
0.75 - Kfir C.2
0.75 - AJ-37 Viggen
0.75 - J-7III

0.74 - Mig-21SM
0.73 - Su-17
0.73 - Mig-21MF
0.73 - Su-17M3
0.73 - Mig-19S*** (MTOW T/W = 0.86)
0.72 - Yak-27K
0.72 - Su-17M4
0.72 - F-104G
0.71 - Mig-19P*** (MTOW T/W = 0.84)
0.71 - Mig-21PF

0.71 - Supermarine Scimitar F.1
0.71 - Cheetah C
0.70 - Mig-21M
0.70 - Su-25SM
0.69 - Jaguar GR1
0.69 - J-35F Draken
0.69 - Mig-21F
0.69 - Mig-21 F-13
0.69 - J-7II
0.69 - Su-25 or Su-25T

0.68 - F-105F/G
0.68 - Mirage 50
0.68 - F-7M(or F-7MP or F-7MB) & F-7P
0.67 - F-1
0.67 - F4D-1/F-6 Skyray
0.66 - Mirage F-1
0.66 - F-8P
0.64 - F-102A
0.63 - Sea Vixen FAW.2
0.63 - Su-25TM or Su-39

0.62 - Yak-27
0.61 - Yak-38M (TWR during STOVL/VTOL takeoff: 1.20)
0.61 - Mirage-5A
0.61 - J-32B Lansen
0.60 - A-4S1
0.59 - Mirage-III E & D
0.58 - Yak-38 (T/W during STOVL/VTOL takeoff: 1.16)
0.58 - IAI Nesher
0.58 - F-5E Tiger-II
0.56 - F-100D

0.56 - A-6E
0.55 - A-7E
0.51 - Super &#201;tendard
0.50 - F3H-2 Demon
0.49 - A-10A
0.49 - F-11A
0.49 - AMX
0.47 - &#201;tendard-IV M
0.46 - F-89D
0.46 - Super Myst&#232;re B.2

0.46 - Hunter F 6
0.45 - Marut Mk.1
0.43 - Yak-25
0.43 - F-94C/F-97A
0.43 - F9F-8/F-9J Cougar
0.41 - A-37B
0.37 - Myst&#232;re IVA
0.37 - FJ-4 Fury
0.36 - F7U-3M
0.34 - F-84F

0.33 - J-29F Tunnan
0.33 - P-80C
0.32 - Supermarine Attacker F.1
0.31 - F2H-3 Banshee
0.30 - Ouragan M.D.450B
0.30 - F3D-2 Sky Night
0.29 - Venom FB.1
0.29 - F-84G


Pure Interceptors
1.30 - Mig-31M
1.30 - Mig-31BM
1.28 - Mig-31B
1.27 - Mig-31FE
1.27 - Mig-31E
1.22 - Mig-31
1.21 - Mig-25M
1.00 - Mig-25 P & PD
0.93 - Mig-25BM
0.74 - Tu-128




Empty Weight - Thrust - Aircraft

41,447 - 31,967 X 2 - Su-35BM
37,500 - 29,160 X 2 - F-15K
36,111 - 27,557 X 2 - Su-27S
24,251 - 20,000 X 2 - Eurofighter
24,251 - 19,841 X 2 - Mig-35
37,192 - 27,557 X 2 - Su-27SK & J-11A
20,948 - 17,000 X 2 - Rafale C
25,573 - 19,841 X 2 - Mig-29M/M2
31,700 - 23,450 X 2 - F-15C
43,340 - 30,100 X 2 - F-22(35,000lbf - Thrust with round nozzle)

39,903 - 27,557 X 2 - Su-30MKK
30,600 - 22,000 X 2 - F/A-18E/F
24,030 - 18,300 X 2 - Mig-29B (9-12)
40,565 - 27,557 X 2 - Su-30MKI
22,478 - 17,000 X 2 - Rafale M
24,692 - 18,300 X 2 - Mig-29 (9-13), S, SD, SE & SM
25,573 - 18,300 X 2 - Mig-29 BM & SMT (19,180lbf - Emergency Thrust*)
22,000 - 32,500 X 1 - F-16E Block 60
28,550 - 19,841 X 2 - Mig-29K
24,700 - 17,700 X 2 - F-18C

22,509 - 16,535 X 2 - J-8III(or J-8C)
29,300 - 39,900 X 1 - F-35A
43,600 - 27,800 X 2 - F-14 B & D
19,700 - 29,160 X 1 - F-16C Block 52 (Block 50: 420lb & 240lbf more)
21,671 - 15,422 X 2 - J-8IIm
14,865 - 23,400 X 1 - AV-8B+ Harrier II
21,000 - 29,600 X 1 - F-2A (F-2B: 21,235lb)
31,967 - 20,515 X 2 - JH-7
15,600 - 23,830 X 1 - F-16A Block 10
21,671 - 14,815 X 2 - J-8II & J-8IIb & J-8IId

32,000 - 39,900 X 1 - F-35B
15,708 - 23,400 X 1 - Harrier GR7A
49,163 - 28,219 X 2 - Su-34 & Su-32FN & Su-27IB
14,052 - 21,450 X 1 - Sea Harrier FA2 & FRS51
16,285 - 23,830 X 1 - F-16A Block 20
20,394 - 27,557 X 1 - J-10A
22,818 - 14,770 X 2 - Su-15T
22,553 - 28,660 X 1 - MiG-23 P, ML, MLA & MLD
34,800 - 39,900 X 1 - F-35C
15,653 - 22,000 X 1 - Gripen NG

30,328 - 17,845 X 2 - F-4E
20,470 - 13,219 X 2 - J-8
16,000 - 22,045 X 1 - Mirage 2000-5
23,970 - 14,770 X 2 - Su-15TM
28,495 - 16,900 X 2 - F-101B
15,708 - 21,450 X 1 - Harrier GR7
28,042 - 16,360 X 2 - E E Lightning F6
18,238 - 23,770 X 1 - F-16C Block 25
21,980 - 13,448 X 2 - Yak-28 I & P
47,481 - 25,100 X 2 - F-111F

46,738 - 24,692 X 2 - Su-24
22,531 - 13,669 X 2 - Su-15
16,538 - 21,384 X 1 - Mirage 2000 C & H
14,330 - 19,100 X 1 - LCA
40,104 - 20,900 X 2 - F-14A
24,008 - 27,558 X 1 - Mig-23 MF & MS
49,163 - 24,801 X 2 - Su-24 M, MK & M2
14,300 - 09,500 X 2 - FCK-1
16,920 - 21,164 X 1 - Su-9
18,876 - 22,267 X 1 - Su-11

21,605 - 24,692 X 1 - Su-17M
31,970 - 16,410 X 2 - Tornado F3 Air Defence Variant
31,065 - 16,005 X 2 - Tornado GR1
21,936 - 24,692 X 1 - Su-20
14,520 - 18,300 X 1 - JF-17 (19,180lbf - Emergency Thrust*)
23,027 - 25,353 X 1 - Su-22
14,595 - 18,097 X 1 - Gripen A
18,453 - 21,164 X 1 - Su-7B
13,150 - 17,000 X 1 - F-20
14,991 - 18,097 X 1 - Gripen C

26,252 - 27,558 X 1 - Mig-27K
18,629 - 21,164 X 1 - Su-7BM
12,037 - 15,654 X 1 - Mig-21 Bis (21,829lbf - Emergency Thrust**)
27,866 - 28,100 X 1 - JA-37 Viggen
24,317 - 25,336 X 1 - Mig-27
23,369 - 24,692 X 1 - Su-17M2
24,692 - 25,336 X 1 - Mig-23BN
19,599 - 21,164 X 1 - Su-7 BKL & BMK
23,955 - 12,300 X 2 - Javelin FAW MK9
21,583 - 22,487 X 1 - Mig-23S

11,629 - 14,815 X 1 - J-7IIIa
25,573 - 25,336 X 1 - Mig-27 D & ML
22,046 - 22,487 X 1 - Mig-23M(E)
24,420 - 24,500 X 1 - F-106A
11,667 - 14,650 X 1 - F-7MG & F-7BG & F-7PG & J-7E & J-7G (WP-7N: 13,450lbf)
14,054 - 08,269 X 2 - Q-5D
17,130 - 18,750 X 1 - Kfir C.7
16,061 - 17,901 X 1 - Kfir C.2
27,006 - 25,970 X 1 - AJ-37 Viggen
11,861 - 14,650 X 1 - J-7III

11,574 - 14,308 X 1 - Mig-21SM
21,164 - 21,164 X 1 - Su-17
11,795 - 14,308 X 1 - Mig-21MF
26,014 - 24,692 X 1 - Su-17M3
12,009 - 07,165 X 2 - Mig-19S*** (MTOW: 16,667lb)
15,443 - 08,318 X 2 - Yak-27K
26,810 - 24,692 X 1 - Su-17M4
14,082 - 15,600 X 1 - F-104G
12,507 - 07,165 X 2 - Mig-19P*** (MTOW: 17,042lb)
11,354 - 13,492 X 1 - Mig-21PF

23,962 - 11,250 X 2 - Supermarine Scimitar F.1
14,550 - 15,900 X 1 - Cheetah C
11,795 - 13,613 X 1 - Mig-21M
20,723 - 09,921 X 2 - Su-25SM
15,432 - 08,040 X 2 - Jaguar GR1
17,339 - 17,262 X 1 - J-35F Draken
10,624 - 12,654 X 1 - Mig-21F
10,739 - 12,654 X 1 - Mig-21 F-13
11,850 - 13,219 X 1 - J-7II
20,944 - 09,921 X 2 - Su-25 or Su-25T

28,393 - 24,500 X 1 - F-105F/G
15,763 - 15,870 X 1 - Mirage 50
11,629 - 13,219 X 1 - F-7M(or F-7MP or F-7MB) & F-7P
14,017 - 07,305 X 2 - F-1
16,024 - 16,000 X 1 - F4D-1/F-6 Skyray
16,314 - 15,873 X 1 - Mirage F-1
19,700 - 18,000 X 1 - F-8P
19,350 - 17,200 X 1 - F-102A
27,954 - 11,240 X 2 - Sea Vixen FAW.2
23,677 - 09,921 X 2 - Su-25TM or Su-39

15,395 - 07,165 X 2 - Yak-27
16,535 - 14,770 X 1 - Yak-38M (Lift Engines: 07,165lbf X 2)
14,550 - 13,669 X 1 - Mirage-5A
16,535 - 14,680 X 1 - J-32B Lansen
10,250 - 10,800 X 1 - A-4S1
15,540 - 13,669 X 1 - Mirage-III E & D
15,476 - 13,448 X 1 - Yak-38 (Lift Engines: 06,724lbf X 2)
16,061 - 13,669 X 1 - IAI Nesher
09,558 - 05,000 X 2 - F-5E Tiger-II
20,638 - 16,000 X 1 - F-100D

25,630 - 09,300 X 2 - A-6E
19,781 - 15,000 X 1 - A-7E
14,220 - 11,265 X 1 - Super &#201;tendard
21,287 - 14,400 X 1 - F3H-2 Demon
29,000 - 09,065 X 2 - A-10A
13,810 - 10,500 X 1 - F-11A
14,837 - 11,030 X 1 - AMX
13,007 - 09,703 X 1 - &#201;tendard-IV M
24,200 - 07,400 X 2 - F-89D
14,087 - 09,920 X 1 - Super Myst&#232;re B.2

14,121 - 10,146 X 1 - Hunter F 6
13,658 - 04,856 X 2 - Marut Mk.1
12,610 - 04,409 X 2 - Yak-25
12,708 - 08,750 X 1 - F-94C/F-97A
11,866 - 08,500 X 1 - F9F-8/F-9J Cougar
06,211 - 02,850 X 2 - A-37B
12,941 - 07,734 X 1 - Myst&#232;re IVA
13,210 - 07,700 X 1 - FJ-4 Fury
18,210 - 04,600 X 2 - F7U-3M
13,830 - 07,220 X 1 - F-84F

10,681 - 06,070 X 1 - J-29F Tunnan
08,420 - 05,400 X 1 - P-80C
08,426 - 05,100 X 1 - Supermarine Attacker F.1
13,183 - 03,250 X 2 - F2H-3 Banshee
09,132 - 04,991 X 1 - Ouragan M.D.450B
14,989 - 03,400 X 2 - F3D-2 Sky Night
09,200 - 04,856 X 1 - Venom FB.1
11,470 - 05,560 X 1 - F-84G


Pure Interceptors
48,281 - 36,376 X 2 - Mig-31M
48,115 - 36,376 X 2 - Mig-31BM
45,569 - 34,171 X 2 - Mig-31B
49,383 - 36,376 X 2 - Mig-31FE
46,297 - 34,171 X 2 - Mig-31E
48,104 - 34,171 X 2 - Mig-31
41,667 - 29,762 X 2 - Mig-25M
41,447 - 24,684 X 2 - Mig-25 P & PD
45,415 - 24,684 X 2 - Mig-25BM
54,013 - 22,706 X 2 - Tu-128


# Data from Official Company & Military sites, Aerospaceweb.org, Airwar.ru, Globalsecurity.org, Fas.org, Warfare.ru, Wikipedia.org & its References, and Other Sources.
# Weight in lb, and Thrust in lbf.
# 3505 kg = 7727 lb
# Not all of them are Fighter Planes.
# Some of the Fighters' data couldn't be obtained, and hence could not be included in the above list.
# Individual engines' SFC(Specific Fuel Consumption) & Individual aircrafts' standard Air-Air payload weight, based TWR cannot be determined due to unavaliability of SFC data for Older Engines. Even in the case of some Newer Engines, SFC data is not avaliable.
# It's likely that the 35,000lbf thrust for F119(F-22's engine) doesn't include flat nozzles. For an engine thrust decrease of 14&#37;, which accompanies flat nozzles, F-22's TWR would drop down to 1.18. It's known that Flat nozzles reduces the thrust of an engine from 14%-17%. Given the fact that the F-35's engine, which is a derivative of the F-22's engine, but newer & bigger than the F119 engine, has a thrust of 39,900lbf with round nozzles, it's likely the 35,000lbf fig for F119 is also for round nozzles.

* Klimov States that Thrust as "Take-off emergency mode"
** The conditions for 21,829lbf Emergency Thrust are limited to 3 Minutes and Altitude less than 4000m.
*** Empty weight + 7727 lb exceeds max takeoff weight. Except Mig-19 all other less MTOW(Maximum Take-Off Weight) fighter planes are omitted.*

Reactions: Like Like:
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## sancho

PRATEEK said:


> One
> to show - that your source was just guessing when he said Mig35 failed trials .
> 
> Mig35 passed all tests , and it was confirmed by Rosoboronexport yesterday .



My source? Didn't you posted his comments from another forum? 

Regarding Mig 35, even if you don't think that the gentleman is reliable (which I don't take for granted either), would you expect any other reaction from Rosoboronexport? I mean several media reports claimed about 1, or 2 fighters needed modification, or even failing the trials, but so far all vendors said they did well in the trials right? So that report is not really negating the claims of him. If a fighter really failed for any technical reason, I expect real infos only after the shortlistings, but for sure not from the vendors.



PRATEEK said:


> You said Gripen did only Leh trials , there was no testing in Sweden ?????



No, I said all the Gripen NG can do so far, are *flight* testings only and that's what they did at Leh as well as in Sweden and the real MMRCA trials was done by Gripen Ds! 
These included the trials at Leh with landing, engine restart and take off with heavy loads, as well as air refuelling (exactly what the Gripen NG did in may), but also weapon trials at Pokhran, or hot weather trials at Jaisalmer.
As the sources said, Saab offered IAF officials to fly the NG in Sweden, but weapon tests could only be done by the D's again.

We now have 3 different sources that confirms all the above mentioned (one even provided from you!) and the Livefist report clearly says *trials at Leh*, so you still want to refuse the reality?


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## sancho

*F16 CFTs with integrated probe-and-drogue refueling systems during flight tests:*























P.S. I still expect PAF to get exactly these CFTs for their new F16 B52s, no matter if we choose F16IN, or not, because these will be available for export customers too.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## KEETARP

sancho said:


> My source? Didn't you posted his comments from another forum?
> 
> Regarding Mig 35, even if you don't think that the gentleman is reliable (which I don't take for granted either), would you expect any other reaction from Rosoboronexport? I mean several media reports claimed about 1, or 2 fighters needed modification, or even failing the trials, but so far all vendors said they did well in the trials right? So that report is not really negating the claims of him. If a fighter really failed for any technical reason, I expect real infos only after the shortlistings, but for sure not from the vendors.
> 
> 
> 
> No, I said all the Gripen NG can do so far, are *flight* testings only and that's what they did at Leh as well as in Sweden and the real MMRCA trials was done by Gripen Ds!
> These included the trials at Leh with landing, engine restart and take off with heavy loads, as well as air refuelling (exactly what the Gripen NG did in may), but also weapon trials at Pokhran, or hot weather trials at Jaisalmer.
> As the sources said, Saab offered IAF officials to fly the NG in Sweden, but weapon tests could only be done by the D's again.
> 
> We now have 3 different sources that confirms all the above mentioned (one even provided from you!) and the Livefist report clearly says *trials at Leh*, so you still want to refuse the reality?



Hey
what I meant by your source is , you are in contact with him ; not me . 
And you believed his claims 

Anyways - My bad "wrong choice of words" 



> So that report is not really negating the claims of him. If a fighter really failed for any technical reason, I expect real infos only after the shortlistings, but for sure not from the vendors.



No one failed in Trials . Media reports said 4 of 6 failed , while some one claimed all 4 had some minor problems . Nos were always four . 
This Gentleman claims - F18 and Mig35 specifically failed . 

Well , if you still want to believe F18 and Mig 35 failed -Your choice 



> expect real infos only after the shortlistings, but for sure not from the vendors.



Me too , but in btw you keep justifying his lines . If we believe Fanbyoz - Each of the Jet failed 



> We now have 3 different sources that confirms all the above mentioned (one even provided from you!) and the Livefist report clearly says *trials at Leh*, so you still want to refuse the reality?



If you go thru my prev post again , I said Missile integration is still not done in gripen . My post still lies there 
Don't know where you get that impression from ???

Funny isn't it 
When this same media claimed 2 Typhoons from German Sq demonstrated Weapon firing . You were first one to criticize media that only UK typhoons were certified for full A2G operations .


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## KEETARP




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## sancho

PRATEEK said:


> Hey
> what I meant by your source is , you are in contact with him ; not me .
> And you believed his claims
> 
> Anyways - My bad "wrong choice of words"



I didn't believed his claims right away and that's the reason I get in contact with. I wanted to get more infos before I build an opinion about him, or about what he said. It's always better to have several points of view right?




PRATEEK said:


> No one failed in Trials . Media reports said 4 of 6 failed , while some one claimed all 4 had some minor problems . Nos were always four .
> This Gentleman claims - F18 and Mig35 specifically failed .
> 
> Well , if you still want to believe F18 and Mig 35 failed -Your choice



Never said that, actually I would be even surprised if the Mig had problems, but you can't counter him without a proof and that a vendor claims they did well is not surprising for me, that's all.




PRATEEK said:


> Funny isn't it
> When this same media claimed 2 Typhoons from German Sq demonstrated Weapon firing . You were first one to criticize media that only UK typhoons were certified for full A2G operations .



Yes, because I knew it better from German Luftwaffe pilots, which were more reliable to me than that one report! Here instead, we have several different reports claiming the same, that Gripen D made the trials, not the NG. So I'm not claiming just like that, but backed it with sources!


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## KEETARP

> Yes, because I knew it better from German Luftwaffe pilots, which were more reliable to me than that one report!



http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/6027588.cms

*Eurofighter chief executive Enzo Casolini told IANS here* - 



> "The final phase of flight trials were conducted in Europe to test the fighter's cutting edge weapons systems and advanced sensors. The exercises included dropping precision guided munitions and launching air-to-air and air-to-ground missiles," *Casolini added*.
> Eurofighter *used two Typhoons of the German Air Force's squadron 73, which is based at Laage in northern Germany*.



I mean someone is lying out of three - 
Either your German Pilot 
Or Eurofighter chief's interview was fake and written by media 
or Eurofighter chief dosen't know about his Jet 

As far as Gripen NG is concerned , I know they don't have missile integrated with demo version . 
But if they didn't demonstrate LGB firing , they will be kicked out in first short-list itself . 
Let us wait for short-list to see whether my source is correct about LGB dropping by NG is true or false .


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## sancho

PRATEEK said:


> Eurofighter to quote price for IAF order-Politics/Nation-News-The Economic Times
> 
> *Eurofighter chief executive Enzo Casolini told IANS here* -
> 
> 
> 
> I mean someone is lying out of three -
> Either your German Pilot
> Or Eurofighter chief's interview was fake and written by media
> or Eurofighter chief dosen't know about his Jet
> 
> As far as Gripen NG is concerned , I know they don't have missile integrated with demo version .
> But if they didn't demonstrate LGB firing , they will be kicked out in first short-list itself .
> Let us wait for short-list to see whether my source is correct about LGB dropping by NG is true or false .



See the German EFs replaced Mig 29s in the A2A role, they are one of the least develped EFs in the A2G role, unlike the UK EFs, that are the only one that integrated Litening pod. That's why it was planed from the begining that German EFs just do the flight tests in India, while weapon trials will be held by UK EFs in UK itself.
And if you go through the article you will find other mistakes too:



> The IAF plans to acquire 18 of these in ready-to-fly condition, with the remaining *118 *being manufactured by the Indian defence behemoth Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) under technology transfer and licensed production, to replace its ageing Russian MiG-21 fleet *and enhance its strike capability*...
> 
> ... The consortium flew in three twin engine canard-delta wing Typhoons to the Bangalore international air show (Aero India) in Feb 2009 *to showcase its awesome strike capabilities.*



The licence production is for 108 not 118 fighters, Mig 21 was not in strike role and the German EFs attended AI 09 did flight shows, but no weapon showcase as they claim. The German EFs didn't even had PIRATE installed, let alone targeting pod and LGBs.

I guess I know, which of the 3 choices is the unreliable. 

As far as I know Gripen NG has not integrated the Litening pod yet, because the pod station need to be modificated. Especially with the 2 new centerline stations the older pod station doesn't fit anymore. That's why you can see pics of the NG with 1000Kg LGBs on those stations, but no targeting pod, like the Gripen Ds use them.
As the name says it, it is just for demonstration of flight performance and possible future techs, not for doing such trials with all capabilities.


----------



## SpArK

*$ 10 bn combat jet deal eyes strategic 'leverage'*



The Indian Air Force is set to acquire 126 medium, multirole combat aircraft (MMRCA) and the current talk in the Vayu Sena Bhavan is to *"leverage strategic gains" out of the $ 10-billion deal.*

As the compilation of the flight test results nears completion, *the process of hard bargaining is set to begin.
*

A senior air force officer told Mail Today: *"We should use the deal to get concessions on enrichment technology, and accessing dual use technologies that we are denied at the moment."* However, before negotiations on these aspects are addressed, a few steps need to be taken first.

The first shortlist for the six types of aircraft-MiG-35, Rafale, Gripen, Eurofighter, F-16 and F/A 18 Super Hornet - will be prepared by the air force on the basis of *"complying with the operational requirements of the Indian Air Force"*, an official explained.

As is the norm, senior air force officers have remained mostly tight-lipped about which aircraft have or haven't made the cut in terms of fulfilling the operational requirements, although *some information seems to have trickled out regarding the flight tests wherein one or two of these six aircraft failed to develop "enough thrust" in the high altitude tests held at Leh.*

After the air force lists the aircraft that have complied with its "technical" requirements, the ministry of defence will judge the "offset compliance" of the selected manufacturers. In simple terms, *that would mean how much of the money would be ploughed back into the Indian economy.
*

*The 'offset' requirement for the MMRCA deal is 50 per cent. This means that close to $ 5 billion would have to be reinvested into India by the company winning the bid.
*


After this, the "commercial bids" of each would be opened by the defence ministry mandarins, who will, for the first time, examine the commercial offers made by the companies more than two years ago.

*For the first time, a new system of costfixing has been introduced that not only takes into account the unit prices but also calculates the 'life cycle costs'-which takes into account the cost of maintenance and spares for the period, estimated at 40 years, the aircraft would remain operational.
*


*On the basis of this, the lowest bidder (L1) would be determined by a commercial negotiation committee headed by an additional secretary of the ministry. The committee will also have members of the service headquarters of the army, navy and air force. They would then conduct price negotiations with the L1 bidder to improve upon the initial offer.*



Finally, a paper would be prepared for the Cabinet Committee on Security that would have to give its seal of approval and award the contract. It is at this stage, before the contract is awarded, that government-to-government negotiations would be conducted to get the best additional benefits for the country.


*The sheer size of the MMRCA deal ensures that India will get a high level of attention from each of country vying for the largest defence contract in recent memory.*


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## sudhir007

GRIPEN INDIA


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## KEETARP

Ok , 
Finally the time has come when first details of Technical Evaluation will be out - two major Indian defence blog sites promise to disclose details of report shortly 

Chindits

Chinditis Suman Sharma


> SATURDAY, JULY 31, 2010
> 
> Coming Up MMRCA Series, Chindits Accesses Copy Of RFP, Details Of Tech Eval Report !!





Shiv Aroor LIVEFIST - 

LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence: Coming Up...



> SATURDAY, JULY 31, 2010
> Coming Up...
> A round-up of all the rumours on India's MMRCA competition and where it's headed. Stay tuned.


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## anathema

^^ Not at all sure about Suman !! Shes just a pain.

I am still waiting for explosvie Arihant details -- that she tol she will reveal....Shiv -- i believe is just gossiping...lets see


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## jha

Ajai Shukla seems to be more reliable...but he is not too active these days...

And there seems to be some sort of competition going on between Suman and Shiv...


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## anathema

jha said:


> Ajai Shukla seems to be more reliable...but he is not too active these days...
> 
> And there seems to be some sort of competition going on between Suman and Shiv...



Yeah its true -- actually Suman publicly bitched about Shiv -- on BR --they had a fight for some reason and ever since this is going on !! ..anyways competition is always good for us !


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## sancho

PRATEEK said:


> Ok ,
> Finally the time has come when first details of Technical Evaluation will be out - two major Indian defence blog sites promise to disclose details of report shortly
> 
> Chindits
> 
> Chinditis Suman Sharma
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shiv Aroor LIVEFIST -
> 
> LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence: Coming Up...




Will be an interesting week, but I hope they report about some details and not only estimations, orpersonal opinions. Especially livefist is often hypeing public opinion with their own, than really reporting.
Btw, any new infos about LCA MK2 engine? It's been some time till the technical evaluation finished, any relations to MMRCA here?


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## amit27

F18 SH + EF + Gripen NG = Final 3 in tender


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## karan.1970

amit27 said:


> F18 SH + EF + Gripen NG = Final 3 in tender



Is it a guess or news?? If news, source pl??


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## CONNAN

*BY SHIV AROOR*

LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence: The MMRCA Competition: What Next?

*Two days ago, I received a mysterious phone-call from a Russian journalist who claimed to have very reliable information that the Indian Air Force and the Defence Ministry had chosen the MiG-35 in the $12-billion medium multirole combat aicraft (MMRCA) competition, and had communicated as much to both MiG chief Mikhail Pogosyan as well as UAC president Alexey Fedorov. Cut. A well-known senior Indian defence analyst, who junketed off to Farnborough this month, assured me just before he left, that the Typhoon was going to sail through to the finish line -- I'd stopped listening by this time, but he said something about "knowing people in the know". Cut.
*
There's a lot of stuff swimming around out there about the MMRCA, and it's all tantalizing. Rumours of first blood.

At this point in the game, it's common for vendors to pick journalists' brains about what they're hearing. Well, what they're hearing is a lot of noise. A carefully crafted cacophony of permutation, combination and possibility -- some delectably elegant, some morbidly unthinkable. The campaign chiefs from Boeing and Lockheed-Martin, for example, have frequent briefings in Delhi -- thinly veiled opportunities for them to get exchange notes with reporters about where things stand on the MMRCA, what the rumours are, what they're picking up from "people in the know". All of the rumours are tantalizing in their potential to create massive upheaval -- political, technological, doctrinal, what have you. And in the run up to what is expected to be a downselect this year -- but what is also likely to not be a downselect at all -- I thought I'd put down everything I've heard in the last six three months. The structure, I should say right away, does not indicate a descending order of probability. And yet, it might.

For the purpose of clarity, let me state that the six competitors are the RAC-MiG MiG-35, the Boeing F/A-18IN Super Hornet, the Dassault Rafale, the EADS Eurofighter Typhoon, the Saab Gripen IN and the Lockheed-Martin F-16IN Super Viper.

*SCENARIO 1: NO DOWNSELECT:* All six contenders make the cut. Commercial negotiations begin with all six companies, and bam, they hand it to one. Right through the field evaluation tests (FET), there have been rumours of scrubs, snags, even hearsay that four of the six failed the test leg at Leh. All six competitors independently assured the press that their horses had come through beautifully and that all rumours of climb-rate disappointments and payload inadequacies were malicious nuggets passed around by "vested interests". Can't think of one person who isn't a vested interest, actually. If all six aircraft dodge the "downselect", it'll mean the FET gave the IAF nothing it could really work with in terms of defining what it really wants to go with. Always bear in mind the supremely incomparable airplanes the IAF is working to compare.

*SCENARIO 2: NO DOWNSELECT, BUT PREFERENCE INDICATED:* All six contenders make the cut, but are presented in the IAF's report to the MoD in descending order of preference. Best of both worlds -- everyone makes it past the first guillotine.

*SCENARIO 3: THE NEGATIVE RECOMMENDATION:* An interesting one. The IAF submits its report to the MoD along with a list solely indicating the aircraft it definitely doesn't want. The government then takes a political decision among the ones the IAF doesn't mind operating.

*SCENARIO 4: SINGLE OUT: *IAF chief PV Naik says the MMRCA field evaluation trials make for an international yardstick on how fighters should be evaluated the world over &#8211; a masterpiece of a testing templace. Most people believe him, because they&#8217;re still trying to figure how a disparate line-up of aircraft can be meaningfully compared with a result-oriented focus. Many were shocked when Boeing elbowed in the Super Hornet into the MMRCA competition way back when the Mirage-2000-V was still in contention and widely believed to be the signature platform for the MMRCA. *Things have changed drastically since. This scenario suggests that the IAF has come round to wanting a twin-engine platform. So goodbye F-16IN and Gripen IN.*

*SCENARIO 5: KEEP IT REAL, KEEP IT MEDIUM:* An old scenario that&#8217;s more wishful thinking than anything else. There&#8217;s nothing &#8220;medium&#8221; about the Typhoon, Rafale and Super Hornet. So the downselect pushes forward only the MiG-35, the F-16IN and the Gripen IN.

*SCENARIO 6: GRIPEN, MIG OUT: *The downselect eliminates the Gripen IN and the MiG-35. The former, because it&#8217;s Swedish (and woe betide any government that ever buys anything Swedish ever again). The rumour goes that the government has expressly instructed the IAF not to allow the Gripen past the FET phase. The latter because its Russian, and there&#8217;s a limit to the whole eggs in one basket thing.

*SCENARIO 7: NO OP AESA? GOODBYE!:* Only the F-16IN and the F/A-18IN make it because they&#8217;re the only two contenders with fully operational AESA radars (the NG APG-80 and the Raytheon APG-79 respectively). The others are work in progress, and the IAF doesn&#8217;t want to take a chance. That the IAF has been super-impressed by both American AESAs doesn&#8217;t hurt.

*SCENARIO 8: TYPHOON OUT:* A nightmare scenario for EADS, considering the weight of its pitch. This scenario suggests the Typhoon is ejected from the competition as a result of deficient air-to-ground performance, and that all promises aren&#8217;t worth the cost of the airplane.

And these are just eight possible scenarios. I haven&#8217;t mentioned the obvious permutations. It&#8217;s going to be a yahtzee. Will keep updating this post as I hear more. And, of course, feel free to comment with more scenarios if you&#8217;ve heard any.


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## jha

^^^ And this was the post after so much hype...

This shiv aroor guy is irritating as hell at times..
Lets see what mohtarma brings to the table...

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## sancho

> SCENARIO 5: KEEP IT REAL, KEEP IT MEDIUM: An old scenario thats more wishful thinking than anything else. Theres nothing medium about the Typhoon, Rafale and Super Hornet. So the downselect pushes forward only the MiG-35, the F-16IN and the Gripen IN.



So much for credibility if he things the Mig 35 is more medium class than Rafale, or EF.



jha said:


> ^^^ And this was the post after so much hype...
> 
> This shiv aroor guy is irritating as hell at times..
> Lets see what mohtarma brings to the table...



Totally agree, he often simply hypes his own opinion in the blog and starts rumors with unknown sources:



> I received a mysterious phone-call from a Russian journalist who claimed to have very reliable information





> there have been rumours of scrubs, snags, even hearsay that four of the six



His report about the Leh trials:



> Four MMRCA Contenders *Fail* Leh Trials!
> 
> It's the latest tidbit on India's $12-billion Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) competition that's doing the rounds (and it was first reported by The Hindu on Tuesday). Four of the contenders that underwent cold-weather evaluation trials at Leh didn't meet performance requirements. OK, major understatement. Four of the contenders bit dust in Leh. Read that again: four aircraft. That's huge. It's still unclear which part of the Leh test the four aircraft types failed at, though it is quite clear that it was either the switch off/on after landing, or the take-off with meaningful combat load at that altitude. *The only thing that appears true is that four aircraft failed the trial -- it is totally anyone's guess which these are. Any want to hazard a try?*




This is the article in the Hindu of the same day, he is refering to:



> Sweden's Gripens head for AFS Jaisalmer
> 
> Ravi Sharma
> 
> BANGALORE: Sweden's Gripen NG, the last of the six fighter aircraft that are being evaluated by the Indian Air Force for the $12 billion medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) deal, left Bangalore on Monday morning for the Air Force Station (AFS) Jaisalmer.
> 
> Having gone through a week of performance trials  including a demonstration of air-to-air refuelling and flying manoeuvres  by the IAF's specifically designated MMRCA team here, two Gripens will now complete the remaining part of their flight tests over Pokhran and Leh before heading for the AFS Jamnagar and then to an air base in Sweden.
> 
> While one of the Gripens will undertake hot weather trials in and around the AFS Jaisalmer and later take off to perform a dummy run and bomb drop at the Pokhran test range, the other fighter, as part of the cold weather trials, will land in Leh, switch off, refuel and then take off again.
> 
> Ministry of Defence officials familiar with the MMRCA trials told The Hindu that while they expect no hiccups during the weapons drop over Pokhran, the Leh exercise proved challenging to the other contenders vying for the MMRCA deal.
> 
> *The officials confided that four of the five aircraft in the MMRCA competition faced problems starting up in the rarefied atmosphere of Leh, and the IAF had to ask the manufacturers to undertake modifications in the aircraft's fuel systems. *The Gripen's evaluation is part of the MMRCA flight trials, which started in August last, when the F/A-18 Hornets arrived here. These were followed by another American fighter, the F-16IN Super Viper. In September, the French Rafale flew over Bangalore. It was followed by Russia's MiG-35 and the European Aeronautic Defence and Space consortium's Eurofighter Typhoon flew in March.
> 
> Once the flight trials are completed, the MMRCA evaluation team headed by the Principal Director, Air Staff Requirements, Air Commodore R.K. Dhir will write the technical report, narrowing down the competition to three or four contenders. Thereafter, the commercial bids will be opened, with the lowest bidder  as per India's defence procurement procedures  winning the contract.



Pretty different if you compare it right? Especially if we keep in mind that he directly refers to it.

He often has good infos about Indian arms and techs, but is not really reporting from a neutral point of view, especially in these very small reports without detail, or reliable sources.


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## kish

amit27 said:


> F18 SH + EF + Gripen NG = Final 3 in tender



is it final news ,, or just a guess ,,


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## amit27

kish said:


> is it final news ,, or just a guess ,,




Its my own guess but I took into account the brazil tender and lifecycle cost of each aircraft.


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## KEETARP

jha said:


> ^^^ And this was the post after so much hype...
> 
> This shiv aroor guy is irritating as hell at times..
> Lets see what mohtarma brings to the table...



Bloody hell , Khoda pahad .......................... nikli cheeti . 
Let's wait for Sukhoi girl .

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## hazi

This is just a general question. Are any of the MRCA aicraft going to be more advanced than the Su-30 MKI? How are they going to be more/less advanced than the Su-30 MKI


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## anathema

PRATEEK said:


> Bloody hell , Khoda pahad .......................... nikli cheeti .
> Let's wait for Sukhoi girl .



Mohotarma is even worse !


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## amit27

hazi said:


> This is just a general question. Are any of the MRCA aicraft going to be more advanced than the Su-30 MKI? How are they going to be more/less advanced than the Su-30 MKI




Depends which fighter is selected but AESA will be a new feature and lower RCS if a westen fighter is chosen, net centric ability and new weapons will also be features.

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## whocares

amit27 said:


> Depends which fighter is selected but AESA will be a new feature and lower RCS if a westen fighter is chosen, net centric ability and new weapons will also be features.



actually, i think we should've had a mix of 280 of these + 120 'bomb the ****' MKIs rather than the other way around.


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## amit27

I'd go for the Gripen NG it is ideal for India on these points 

a) single engine means lower cost plus low lifecycle cost 
b) low RCS compared to f16 and our present sukhoi 30mki
c) fully netcentric
d) AESA - new technology
e) New weapons of India's choice the NG can be customised to suit India


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## praveen007

i want u to have pataint & wait. iaf doctorine is range+load & only f-18/rafel fits it well. so they will b best for them


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## kish

amit27 said:


> I'd go for the Gripen NG it is ideal for India on these points
> 
> a) single engine means lower cost plus low lifecycle cost
> b) low RCS compared to f16 and our present sukhoi 30mki
> c) fully netcentric
> d) AESA - new technology
> e) New weapons of India's choice the NG can be customised to suit India



Does Gripen NG has an operational AESA ,


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## kish

praveen007 said:


> i want u to have pataint & wait. iaf doctorine is range+load & only f-18/rafel fits it well. so they will b best for them



except f18 and f16 which one have oprational AESA.


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## amit27

kish said:


> Does Gripen NG has an operational AESA ,




The SELEX Galileo&#8217;s RAVEN AESA radar will be used on the 
Gripin NG. 

defence.professionals | defpro.com

It does not matter if it is operational, as USA was the first to use AESA thats why the
f18 and f16 has them at the moment but it will be joined by the EF and Gripin NG soon. By the time India decide who will win the MRCA tender I assume it will take 2 yrs more then AESA will be option for all 4th gen fighters on the list.


The partner of choice for next generation aircraft, SELEX Galileo has been selected by SAAB to jointly develop the AESA radar and IRST solutions for their Gripen NG fighter. The Company&#8217;s Raven ES-05 is a wide field of regard radar system optimised for multi-role/swing-role operations, while the Skyward G provides full operational search and track functionality with a stealth capability.


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## praveen007

its rafel- selex
& mig35- ibris-2 they only have some what called pre-operational aesa.


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## sancho

kish said:


> Does Gripen NG has an operational AESA ,



No, it's in development only.

*MMRCA AESA radars:*

- F18SH (APG 79), ready and operational 
- F16IN (APG 80), ready and operational
- Rafale (RBE 2 AA), ready, serial production about to start, operational from 2012 onwards
- Mig 35 (Zhuk AE), small version with around 700 T/R modules ready, bigger version under development, serial production depends on orders
- Gripen E/F (ES-05 Raven), pre version expected by mid 2011, serial production depends on orders
- EF T3 (CAPTOR - E), pre version ready only by 2013, serial production by 2015

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## gogbot

^^^^^^^^^

Given the Fact that Gripen totally messed up by not having a proper prototype sent to the trials.

The only real players left are the 

F18SH and Rafale.

And given the choice between those two , F-18SH may take the cake.
I would prefer the Rafale , 
but the F-18's are more cost effective(we could get an LCA for every SH we get as opposed to a Rafale which is 30 million dollars more expensive) , 
smarter politically(Indo-US ties weigh more than Indo-French) , 
On time delivery with no cost escalations ,
Fit's in with Boeing's greater strategy in India( so more investment from Boeing Into India).

Rafale to its end will give use much better ToT including source code for their AESA radar.

But ToT on the SH still meets the Tender requirements , But does not seem to go over and above as the French has chosen to do.


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## Just Yash

TOT is Bit over hyped term.

We have 100&#37; TOT of SU-30MKI but we are struggling with LCA!!!!!!

So we should not only order Fighter base on TOT.


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## whocares

whats the advantage f18 has over f16?


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## match

Just Yash said:


> TOT is Bit over hyped term.
> 
> We have 100&#37; TOT of SU-30MKI but we are struggling with LCA!!!!!!
> 
> So we should not only order Fighter base on TOT.



Dude su30mki is heavy class and LCA is light weight so we cant use technology used in su30 in LCA project ........we can just make similar copy of MKI noting else

thats why R&D is important


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## Dash

Just Yash said:


> TOT is Bit over hyped term.
> 
> We have 100&#37; TOT of SU-30MKI but we are struggling with LCA!!!!!!
> 
> So we should not only order Fighter base on TOT.


The TOT asked in MKI and the kind of TOT asked in MRCA is different, Prateek once posted the TOT details in this thread not so long ago.

If you go through that you will come to know what TOT we are getting here.


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## soaringphnx

whocares said:


> whats the advantage f18 has over f16?



The F-16 is a true multi-role fighter and fares well in both air-to-air and air-to-ground combat. Lockheed Martin claims that some stealth features have been integrated into the F-16 from the F-22 and F-35. Of course this doesn't mean that the F-16 is stealth, but maybe it has a lower RCS. PAF has been operating the F-16 for years and know the aircraft inside out. Of course, this does not mean that the F-16 will not be selected as Chinese acquisition of the Su-30MKK did not deter the IAF from ordering similar Su-30s. Anyway, Lockheed Martin says that the F-16s offered to India are more advanced than the ones supplied to the PAF.

The F-18SH (my pick between the two) is again a multi-role fighter (obviously) and was developed to meet a requirement of the U.S. Navy for a single aircraft that can carry out the roles of carrier group defence as well as strike. The F-18 is adept at both air-to-air and air-to-ground combat. An added bonus for the F-18SH is the Growler variant which will be a valuable asset to any airforce in SEAD missions. However, I am not sure if the Growler is offered to India, but I sure hope it is.

Let's see what combat aircraft the IAF currently have or will have in the near future:
1. Su-30MKI - primarily an air superiority fighter, but can be used in multiple roles.
2. MiG-29 - again primarily an air-superiority fighter.
3. Dassault Mirage - a multi-role fighter, adept at both air-to-air and air-to-ground.
4. MiG-21 - the old soviet interceptor, but has been upgraded several times and is now capable of multiple roles.
5. Tejas - set to replace the MiG-21 and expected to get IOC in December. But Tejas is just to fill a shortage in fighter squadrons and will most probably be used for point defence.
6. Jaguar - strike aircraft.
7. MiG-27 - strike aircraft.

Forget about the MiG-29, Mirage, MiG-21, Jaguar and MiG-27. They are quite old (especially the last three) and will soon be phased out. So that leaves us with...

1. Su-30MKI - air superiority
2. Tejas - point defence

So now we see that the IAF lacks strike aircraft.

*THE COMPARISON:*

1. From the above analysis, my bet is an aircraft's strike capability will be given prime importance in the MRCA competition. Here, the F-18SH can offer much more than the F-16 and is often called a "bomb truck". Score one for the super bug!!!

2. The F-18 is a twin-engined fighter, but can fly on a single engine in case one experiences engine failure or similar engine trouble. The F-16 of course is single engined. So I guess this gives the F-18SH a definite advantage in survivability. Another point for the F-18!

3. The F-18SH is carrier capable, so it is built to handle the stresses of carrier operations. So it will most probabily be much more sturdier than the F-16. Again an advantage for the SH.

4. Another advantage for the Super Hornet is for SEAD missions as I had mentioned above. I am not sure if the Growlers are offered to India, but still it's a bonus for the F-18SH.

5. Now let's look at after sales support. The F-16 is primarily used by the USAF while the F-35 is the mainstay of the US Navy. Both the USAF and the US Navy plan to induct the new F-35. According to wikipedia, the USAF is planning to retire a major part of it's combat fleet of which the F-16 forms quite a large part. As far as I know, the USAF hasn't ordered any new F-16s. So here comes the problem. How long will the F-16 production line be open? Will we have a shortage of spares? Of course this can be resolved if the entire production line is shifted in India as was once offered for the F-5 (if I am not mistaken). But then again, is there the scope for upgrades? Remember that the IAF is not looking for a temporary stopgap, but is expecting to operate the MRCA aircraft for a long time (upto 2040?). The F-18SH on the other hand will be used for a long time even after the F-35 induction as is apparent from the huge recent order. Again, we can rest assured that there will be no dirth of upgrades or spares for the F-18SH.

6. PAF does not operate F-18s whereas they operate F-16s. Though not a definitive factor, it is still a small advantage for the F-18.

7. There have been reports that the F-35 has been offered as replacements in the future if the F-16 is selected for the MRCA contract. However, I highly doubt this will tilt the decision in favour of the F-16, especially since the F-35 is still under development and the IAF need these aircraft fast. Again, I doubt if the US will be willing to offer ToT or production in India for their latest state of the art fighter. However, it would provide commonality with the Indian Navy, if the F-35 is selected for our future carriers. Again, we must ask ourselves whether the IAF really needs the F-35. We will have the PAK FA for air-superiority and possibly the AMCA and AURA (or the winner of the new stealth UCAV tender) for strike or other roles.

I do not know how the actual unit costs and maintainance costs of the two aircraft compare. But it seems from the above analysis that the F-18 fit's the IAF's requirements much more than the F-16.


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## whocares

soaringphnx said:


> The F-16 is a true multi-role fighter and fares well in both air-to-air and air-to-ground combat. Lockheed Martin claims that some stealth features have been integrated into the F-16 from the F-22 and F-35. Of course this doesn't mean that the F-16 is stealth, but maybe it has a lower RCS. PAF has been operating the F-16 for years and know the aircraft inside out. Of course, this does not mean that the F-16 will not be selected as Chinese acquisition of the Su-30MKK did not deter the IAF from ordering similar Su-30s. Anyway, Lockheed Martin says that the F-16s offered to India are more advanced than the ones supplied to the PAF.
> 
> The F-18SH (my pick between the two) is again a multi-role fighter (obviously) and was developed to meet a requirement of the U.S. Navy for a single aircraft that can carry out the roles of carrier group defence as well as strike. The F-18 is adept at both air-to-air and air-to-ground combat. An added bonus for the F-18SH is the Growler variant which will be a valuable asset to any airforce in SEAD missions. However, I am not sure if the Growler is offered to India, but I sure hope it is.
> 
> Let's see what combat aircraft the IAF currently have or will have in the near future:
> 1. Su-30MKI - primarily an air superiority fighter, but can be used in multiple roles.
> 2. MiG-29 - again primarily an air-superiority fighter.
> 3. Dassault Mirage - a multi-role fighter, adept at both air-to-air and air-to-ground.
> 4. MiG-21 - the old soviet interceptor, but has been upgraded several times and is now capable of multiple roles.
> 5. Tejas - set to replace the MiG-21 and expected to get IOC in December. But Tejas is just to fill a shortage in fighter squadrons and will most probably be used for point defence.
> 6. Jaguar - strike aircraft.
> 7. MiG-27 - strike aircraft.
> 
> Forget about the MiG-29, Mirage, MiG-21, Jaguar and MiG-27. They are quite old (especially the last three) and will soon be phased out. So that leaves us with...
> 
> 1. Su-30MKI - air superiority
> 2. Tejas - point defence
> 
> So now we see that the IAF lacks strike aircraft.
> 
> *THE COMPARISON:*
> 
> 1. From the above analysis, my bet is an aircraft's strike capability will be given prime importance in the MRCA competition. Here, the F-18SH can offer much more than the F-16 and is often called a "bomb truck". Score one for the super bug!!!
> 
> 2. The F-18 is a twin-engined fighter, but can fly on a single engine in case one experiences engine failure or similar engine trouble. The F-16 of course is single engined. So I guess this gives the F-18SH a definite advantage in survivability. Another point for the F-18!
> 
> 3. The F-18SH is carrier capable, so it is built to handle the stresses of carrier operations. So it will most probabily be much more sturdier than the F-16. Again an advantage for the SH.
> 
> 4. Another advantage for the Super Hornet is for SEAD missions as I had mentioned above. I am not sure if the Growlers are offered to India, but still it's a bonus for the F-18SH.
> 
> 5. Now let's look at after sales support. The F-16 is primarily used by the USAF while the F-35 is the mainstay of the US Navy. Both the USAF and the US Navy plan to induct the new F-35. According to wikipedia, the USAF is planning to retire a major part of it's combat fleet of which the F-16 forms quite a large part. As far as I know, the USAF hasn't ordered any new F-16s. So here comes the problem. How long will the F-16 production line be open? Will we have a shortage of spares? Of course this can be resolved if the entire production line is shifted in India as was once offered for the F-5 (if I am not mistaken). But then again, is there the scope for upgrades? Remember that the IAF is not looking for a temporary stopgap, but is expecting to operate the MRCA aircraft for a long time (upto 2040?). The F-18SH on the other hand will be used for a long time even after the F-35 induction as is apparent from the huge recent order. Again, we can rest assured that there will be no dirth of upgrades or spares for the F-18SH.
> 
> 6. PAF does not operate F-18s whereas they operate F-16s. Though not a definitive factor, it is still a small advantage for the F-18.
> 
> 7. There have been reports that the F-35 has been offered as replacements in the future if the F-16 is selected for the MRCA contract. However, I highly doubt this will tilt the decision in favour of the F-16, especially since the F-35 is still under development and the IAF need these aircraft fast. Again, I doubt if the US will be willing to offer ToT or production in India for their latest state of the art fighter. However, it would provide commonality with the Indian Navy, if the F-35 is selected for our future carriers. Again, we must ask ourselves whether the IAF really needs the F-35. We will have the PAK FA for air-superiority and possibly the AMCA and AURA (or the winner of the new stealth UCAV tender) for strike or other roles.
> 
> I do not know how the actual unit costs and maintainance costs of the two aircraft compare. But it seems from the above analysis that the F-18 fit's the IAF's requirements much more than the F-16.



let me respond 

1. i don't know the details but if the a2g ability of SH is much better then thats a plus.
2. how often do you hear of engines giving out on an f16. i don't think twin engined is a plus. if anything, the spare costs and maintenance are nightmarish.
3. sturdier? that just makes no sense at all.
5. f16 is used by everyone under the sun. there is going to be no spare shortage.
6. i think having a superior f-16 gives a direct morale advantage to IAF. our pilots will know all the tactics and also have superior radars and numbers.
7. i think Lockheed is the better company to work with in the long run for the air force. they've been building all the recent cutting edge US stuff.

my own opinion is that if the SH costs exceed f-1 by anything more than 25-30&#37; on the whole (over lifecycle), we are better off buying more f-16s with that money.

f-16 is the most tested platform around.


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## Dash

> i think having a superior f-16 gives a direct morale advantage to IAF. our pilots will know all the tactics and also have superior radars and numbers.



Everything else is fine. But Just a Radar advantage is not enough for IAF to buy F-16. Consider F-16 IN facing F-16 blk 52. Who knows the F-16 better, Iam sure we know PAF knows better than IAF.

They have been operating this since 80s, and even we get them now, we will have no tactical advantage above then. In actual compabt experieence matters too.


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## sancho

gogbot said:


> ^^^^^^^^^
> 
> Given the Fact that Gripen totally messed up by not having a proper prototype sent to the trials.



True, but the Mig 35 prototypes that was send to the trials were also no near prototypes, but upgraded Mig 29Ks only. If the real Mig 35 will be different, the Russians must be out of the competition too. But if they propose just an upgraded Mig 29K, because of the less time they have for development, the specs will highly differ from those that are available on the net (weight, payload, T/W ratio, weapon stations...), which makes it even less comparable to the other contenders. 




gogbot said:


> I would prefer the Rafale ,
> but the F-18's are more cost effective(we could get an LCA for every SH we get as opposed to a Rafale which is 30 million dollars more expensive) ,
> smarter politically(Indo-US ties weigh more than Indo-French) ,
> On time delivery with no cost escalations ,
> Fit's in with Boeing's greater strategy in India( so more investment from Boeing Into India).



I agree to your points, except to cost-effectiveness and on time delivery. The latter is offered by Dassault too and they even offer early delivery of 40 fighters if we want. 
When it comes to costeffectiveness, I am still undecided! 
No doubt that MICA EM/METEOR and AASM are more expensive than AIM 120, or Paveway LGB/JDAM, but for the F18SH we need to set up a complete new logistic line, because IAF hardly have some Paveway bombs and maybe Harpoon missiles now. That means additional costs that one must take to account for the US side (or those fighters that mainly use US weapons) too!
The French on the other side will use the same weapons that will be in IAF from the Mirage 2000 upgrade onwards, so more expensive per piece, but no additional costs.
But that's not all! The US don't offer the integration of Indian weapons, unlike European fighters like Rafale, or Gripen. So instead of using the costlier foreign weapons only, we could use cheaper Indian alternatives too (Indian LGB instead of US Paveway LGB/LJDAM, or AASM). For high value targets, the foreign ammo could be used, if they offer advantages, but for normal targets, cheaper Indian LGBs would be more cost-effective. So if a Rafale, will use mainly I LGB and keep AASM only as a more capable alternative, will the F18SH still be more cost-effective in terms of weapons?
I have some doubts here, but as long as I don't know the exact costs, I prefer to say I don't know.

Similar can be said in terms of spares too, the F18SH spares will be completelly US license build, or provided parts. The Rafale on the other hand offers Kaveri-Snecma engine integration, which would add a level of customisation and indigenous techs, that nobody else can offer. By the fact that the main engine parts was developed in India anyway, the costs for R&D, as well as production will be clearly lower, than a licence produced GE 414 could be. Not to forget, that if a engine upgrade for the F18SH is needed, we have to fund it too, which means additional costs for a foreign engine, instead of our own. 
Another advantage would be, that we could not only build the engine in India, but if we further develope it, could integrate these changes directly to the Rafale too and don't have to wait for a foreign manufacturer to make upgrades every 10, or 15 years.

So, on paper of course the F18SH seems to be more cost-effective, but that differs from country to country and a customised Rafale could turn out to have comparable costs, maybe even less.




gogbot said:


> Rafale to its end will give use much better ToT including source code for their AESA radar.
> 
> But ToT on the SH still meets the Tender requirements , But does not seem to go over and above as the French has chosen to do.



It's not only the pure ammount of ToT that is important, the point is of what! For example, if Boeing offers 80&#37; ToT of airframe, will our industry improve form that ToT? Rafale on the other side, seems to be offered with AESA radar ToT + source codes, and even if they would offer only 40% of it, our industry would gain much more of it for future radar developments right?
As you can see, the US fighters might fulfill the minimum ToT requirements (just like Gripen), but the important point is, of which parts, or techs? I expect Rafale and EF to offer the best in this fields, because they developed radar, engine, or the avionics by themself and are not bound to any restrictions. Be it the ammount, or the quality of ToT, they should be the best choice.



soaringphnx said:


> Of course, this does not mean that the F-16 will not be selected as Chinese acquisition of the Su-30MKK did not deter the IAF from ordering similar Su-30s.



Several people says that, but I would request to look at both cases a bit closer!
The most important reason why we chose the MKI was the advantage of licence production and ToT to produce all parts in India, which gives us more confidence about spare supply. PLAAFs Su 27 and Su 30MKK were build in Russia, so no matter that they bought similar fighters too, we had a clear advantage.
The F16IN also will be licence produced in India, but it's not clear which parts and if the important parts like radar, or avionics will only be assembled in India. So although we have an advantage over PAF with licence production, the spare supply, especially in war times, or during sanctions will not be as easy compared to the MKI.

Yes, the Su 30 MKK has the same design, the same engine and the same weapons as our MKI and except of the engine, that will be the same case with F16 in PAF and F16IN. But, PAF has 30 years of experience with F16s, PLAAF instead procured the first Su 27 SKs in the early 90s, while IAF get the first Su 30MKs in the mid 90s. That gives PLAAF hardly a superiority in terms of confidence, or tactics with that fighter. PAF instead, knows any advantages, as well as weak points and have a clear experience advantage with that fighter, which clearly reduced the advantage of more capable techs in the F16IN. It still might have slight advantages, but very less compared to the advantages other contenders would offer.

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## whocares

Dash said:


> Everything else is fine. But Just a Radar advantage is not enough for IAF to buy F-16. Consider F-16 IN facing F-16 blk 52. Who knows the F-16 better, Iam sure we know PAF knows better than IAF.
> 
> They have been operating this since 80s, and even we get them now, we will have no tactical advantage above then. In actual compabt experieence matters too.



i agree to a certain extent. maybe someone who is with the air force can clarify. we won't have operating experience with any of these aircraft straight away. 

my hunch is still that a superior(significantly?) version of the same aircraft will become a morale advantage.

the minus is that Lockheed can hold IAF to ransom by giving pakistan cheaper upgrades.

this is just part of the argument though. i'd probably buy the SH if the lifetime costs were the same. but i think it costs significantly more.


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## Dash

> i agree to a certain extent. maybe someone who is with the air force can clarify. we won't have operating experience with any of these aircraft straight away.



But its sttill better to drive a Maruti when you know how to drive a Maruti isnt it?, Will you take your new Farrari to a race or the old baleno with which you have raced earlier?...point is We have been flying Sukhois for a decade now, and all that we have is a good airforce, you must know that from Red Flag and Cope India.



> my hunch is still that a superior(significantly?) version of the same aircraft will become a morale advantage



Morale advantage is still not good compared to what has been tried and tested.



> the minus is that Lockheed can hold IAF to ransom by giving pakistan cheaper upgrades.



A new point, very well thought.
But same could happen to F-18 too....so pretty much out of talk.



> this is just part of the argument though. i'd probably buy the SH if the lifetime costs were the same. but i think it costs significantly more.




F-18 will always be better than F-16, its a bomb truck and life time costs will not be higher than F-16 and there are enough examples and moreover when you are buying only 18 and rest producing, you always bring it down.


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## whocares

Dash said:


> But its sttill better to drive a Maruti when you know how to drive a Maruti isnt it?, Will you take your new Farrari to a race or the old baleno with which you have raced earlier?...point is We have been flying Sukhois for a decade now, and all that we have is a good airforce, you must know that from Red Flag and Cope India.
> 
> 
> 
> Morale advantage is still not good compared to what has been tried and tested.



i didn't get your point. what i am saying is that we don't have experience with either f16 or superhornet.



Dash said:


> A new point, very well thought.
> But same could happen to F-18 too....so pretty much out of talk.


it won't happen with F18, because f18 is built by boeing which doesn't supply fighters to pak.



Dash said:


> F-18 will always be better than F-16, its a bomb truck and life time costs will not be higher than F-16 and there are enough examples and moreover when you are buying only 18 and rest producing, you always bring it down.



maybe its been discussed and agreed upon, but my impression is that superhornet is significantly more expensive


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## anathema

anathema said:


> Mohotarma is even worse !



As suspected ! She has done the vanishing act !! Some people would do just anything to increase hits on their website/blog !


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## soaringphnx

sancho said:


> Several people says that, but I would request to look at both cases a bit closer!
> The most important reason why we chose the MKI was the advantage of licence production and ToT to produce all parts in India, which gives us more confidence about spare supply. PLAAFs Su 27 and Su 30MKK were build in Russia, so no matter that they bought similar fighters too, we had a clear advantage.
> The F16IN also will be licence produced in India, but it's not clear which parts and if the important parts like radar, or avionics will only be assembled in India. So although we have an advantage over PAF with licence production, the spare supply, especially in war times, or during sanctions will not be as easy compared to the MKI.
> 
> Yes, the Su 30 MKK has the same design, the same engine and the same weapons as our MKI and except of the engine, that will be the same case with F16 in PAF and F16IN. But, PAF has 30 years of experience with F16s, PLAAF instead procured the first Su 27 SKs in the early 90s, while IAF get the first Su 30MKs in the mid 90s. That gives PLAAF hardly a superiority in terms of confidence, or tactics with that fighter. PAF instead, knows any advantages, as well as weak points and have a clear experience advantage with that fighter, which clearly reduced the advantage of more capable techs in the F16IN. It still might have slight advantages, but very less compared to the advantages other contenders would offer.



I agree completely. It is not something that can be overlooked and is definitely an important factor. But I feel that the F-16 won't be disqualified just because of this one factor. There are a lot of other reasons to go for other aircraft like the Rafale or F-18SH. Just my 2 cents.


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## soaringphnx

whocares said:


> 2. how often do you hear of engines giving out on an f16. i don't think twin engined is a plus. if anything, the spare costs and maintenance are nightmarish.



I didn't say that the F-16s engines have a poor record, did I? I just said that "in case" something does happen to an engine, the F-16 will have to attempt to glide to base while the F-18SH can still make it back with one engine.



whocares said:


> 3. sturdier? that just makes no sense at all.



I meant that since the airframe is meant to take lots of punishment, there is less chance of wear and tear to the airframe. Of course, i am not implying that other aircraft just disintegrate mid-air after a few sorties.



whocares said:


> 5. f16 is used by everyone under the sun. there is going to be no spare shortage.



When was the last order put forward by the USAF? Not recently to my knowledge. The only new orders are for a few aircraft by the PAF (I think). But since the USAF no longer needs it, will the production line be kept open as long as 2040? Unlikely in my opinion. Even NATO countries haven't ordered it revently, I believe.



whocares said:


> 6. i think having a superior f-16 gives a direct morale advantage to IAF. our pilots will know all the tactics and also have superior radars and numbers.



Here, I agree with Dash's view.



whocares said:


> 7. i think Lockheed is the better company to work with in the long run for the air force. they've been building all the recent cutting edge US stuff.



We aren't going for a joint venture with Lockheed, are we? So how does this give the F-16 any leverage over the F-18SH?


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## jha

whocares said:


> i didn't get your point. what i am saying is that *we don't have experience with either f16* or superhornet.
> 
> 
> *it won't happen with F18, because f18 is built by boeing which doesn't supply fighters to pak.
> 
> *
> 
> maybe its been discussed and agreed upon, but my impression is that superhornet is significantly more expensive



You might want to check on the comments ...

IAF has vast experience on F-16s..We have held many sessions with Singapore Air force and have observed it to death..There are rumors that some Pilots have become sort of experts in operating these and thats one of the reasons F-16 was allowed to contend in MRCA...

About second part of BOEING not supplying fighters to PAK-- Even LM is not supplying fighters to PAK in a way..its US govt. which is selling F-16 to PAK...and hence there is no surety that If in future Pakistan tries to get a few F-18 then they wont get it...


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## whocares

you might want to read this about the f-16
F-16 Fighting Falcon operators - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

its not going out of spares.

since there is a major reinvestment factor, its better to work with LM as it makes further acquisitions from that company easier (i see no reason why we might not want f-35s at some point).

however, my main point really is about costs, and i'd love if someone could give a rough comparison between f16in and f18sh. (or point to such a post in this humoungously long thread).

if it costs roughly the same, i'll go for the SH.


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## Dash

whocares said:


> you might want to read this about the f-16
> F-16 Fighting Falcon operators - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> its not going out of spares.
> 
> since there is a major reinvestment factor, its better to work with LM as it makes further acquisitions from that company easier (i see no reason why we might not want f-35s at some point).
> 
> however, my main point really is about costs, and i'd love if someone could give a rough comparison between f16in and f18sh. (or point to such a post in this humoungously long thread).
> 
> if it costs roughly the same, i'll go for the SH.


So you want to say that if F-18 has a better life cycle cost then it will certainly be a better plane than F-16 in MRCA tender.
Is that your question?


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## SEAL

jha said:


> You might want to check on the comments ...
> 
> IAF has vast experience on F-16s..We have held many sessions with Singapore Air force and have observed it to death..There are rumors that some Pilots have become sort of experts in operating these and thats one of the reasons F-16 was allowed to contend in MRCA...
> 
> About second part of BOEING not supplying fighters to PAK-- Even LM is not supplying fighters to PAK in a way..its US govt. which is selling F-16 to PAK...and hence there is no surety that If in future Pakistan tries to get a few F-18 then they wont get it...



Well thats BS IAF know nothing about F-16 they don't even know the difference between block 50/52 and F-16 IN(block 60) competing in MRCA.
GoI and IAF were furious with USA and LM over F-16 sale to Pakistan later L.M explained them in written form that F-16IN is more advanced than PAF block 52+.


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## Dash

fox said:


> Well thats BS IAF know nothing about F-16 they don't even know the difference between block 50/52 and F-16 IN(block 60) competing in MRCA.
> GoI and IAF were furious with USA and LM over F-16 sale to Pakistan later L.M explained them in written form that F-16IN is more advanced than PAF block 52+.



So does that make us "Clever"?


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## Just Yash

fox said:


> Well thats BS IAF know nothing about F-16 they don't even know the difference between block 50/52 and F-16 IN(block 60) competing in MRCA.
> GoI and IAF were furious with USA and LM over F-16 sale to Pakistan later L.M explained them in written form that F-16IN is more advanced than PAF block 52+.



Oh God,

This guy want to say that GOI and IAF are not wise enough to differentiate between AESA radar of Block-70 vs simple radar on block-52 or advance avionics or refueling prob or........ just leave it 

I m not expert for replying this short to Dumb and Idiotic comments!!!! can any member help me out here????


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## SEAL

Just Yash said:


> Oh God,
> 
> This guy want to say that GOI and IAF are not wise enough to differentiate between AESA radar of Block-70 vs simple radar on block-52 or advance avionics or refueling prob or........ just leave it :



Hell yeah they are not wise enough  for full story

Indian F-16s more advanced than Pakistan's, says Lockheed Martin - India - The Times of India


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## jha

fox said:


> Well thats BS IAF know nothing about F-16 they don't even know the difference between block 50/52 and F-16 IN(block 60) competing in MRCA.
> GoI and IAF were furious with USA and LM over F-16 sale to Pakistan later L.M explained them in written form that F-16IN is more advanced than PAF block 52+.





You have a lot of knowledge on defence topics..keep posting such enlightening posts


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## Dash

Friends, a request ....Lets just not reply any trolls here. lets keep the sanctity of the thread intact.

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## sancho

soaringphnx said:


> I agree completely. It is not something that can be overlooked and is definitely an important factor. But I feel that the F-16 won't be disqualified just because of this one factor. There are a lot of other reasons to go for other aircraft like the Rafale or F-18SH. Just my 2 cents.



Sure, not only because of that, but that should be a big factor fot IAF.



jha said:


> You might want to check on the comments ...
> 
> IAF has vast experience on F-16s..We have held many sessions with Singapore Air force and have observed it to death..There are rumors that some Pilots have become sort of experts *in operating these* and thats one of the reasons F-16 was allowed to contend in MRCA...



We don't have F16s, so how can they operate them? 

We might have some experience in engaging them in exercises, but that doesn't mean that our pilots would easily fly F16IN too. It will be a totally new aircraft for them and new tactics have to be build. This time not to engage them, but to integrate them at best alongside our other fighters.

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## SEAL

jha said:


> You have a lot of knowledge on defence topics..keep posting such enlightening posts



n you keep posting jokes like Indian pilots became masters of F-16 in 2 exercises with Singapore.


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## whocares

Dash said:


> So you want to say that if F-18 has a better life cycle cost then it will certainly be a better plane than F-16 in MRCA tender.
> Is that your question?



yes, i said this before. if they cost the same, i'll take the F18 SH.

i think SH will cost more considering this

On 3 May 2007, the Australian Government signed a contract to acquire 24 F/A-18Fs for the Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF), at a cost of AU$2.9 billion, as an interim replacement for the aging F-111s.[62] The total cost with training and support over 10 years is AU$6 billion (US$4.6 billion).

they signed 24 SH for 2.9AU = 2.6B USD. thats more than 100m USD a superhornet.

even if we're buying more in number, i don't think we're going to get a cost reduction to 80M USD. and the 100M+ per SH that Australia paid was in 2007. We got the MRCA bids in 2010. should cost more than 2007.

can anyone give a projected estimate of f16 cost?


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## jha

sancho said:


> Sure, not only because of that, but that should be a big factor fot IAF.
> 
> 
> 
> We don't have F16s, so how can they operate them?
> 
> *We might have some experience in engaging them in exercises, but that doesn't mean that our pilots would easily fly F16IN too.* It will be a totally new aircraft for them and new tactics have to be build. This time not to engage them, but to integrate them at best alongside our other fighters.



Of course we dont have F-16...But you seem to undermine the mutual understandings between countries...
Even though Pakistan does not have a Su-30, their operators are flying them in china..
Similarly each year Singapore Air force comes each year to india for long range training and what we get in return is rather derailed study of aircraft  (which includes flying them)...Consider same for Israel..


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## sancho

whocares said:


> yes, i said this before. if they cost the same, i'll take the F18 SH.
> 
> i think SH will cost more considering this
> 
> On 3 May 2007, the Australian Government signed a contract to acquire 24 F/A-18Fs for the Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF), at a cost of AU$2.9 billion, as an interim replacement for the aging F-111s.[62] *The total cost with training and support over 10 years is AU$6 billion (US$4.6 billion).*
> 
> they signed 24 SH for 2.9AU = 2.6B USD. thats more than 100m USD a superhornet.
> 
> even if we're buying more in number, i don't think we're going to get a cost reduction to 80M USD. and the 100M+ per SH that Australia paid was in 2007. We got the MRCA bids in 2010. should cost more than 2007.
> 
> can anyone give a projected estimate of f16 cost?



First of all, you calculated the fly way cost without weapon, spares and training..., the total system cost is $4.6 billions (so around $191 millions for each fighter).

In comparison:



> United Arab Emirates Signs Agreement For Purchase Of 80 Lockheed Martin F-16s
> 
> ABU DHABI, UAE, March 5th, 2000 -- Officials of the United Arab Emirates (U.A.E.) and Lockheed Martin Corporation announced today that they have signed contractual agreements providing for the U.A.E.'s purchase *of 80 F-16 aircraft and associated equipment for an estimated $6.4 billion*...



Which means, that they paid a system price of $80 millions for each fighter. However, we must keep in mind that the UAE also funded the development of the AESA radar, or avionic systems, what means we might pay more for R&D.

Secondly, numbers makes a clear difference! The lower the order, the higher the costs per unit. The system costs of the F18SH will be very different for us, then those for Australia.


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## whocares

sancho said:


> First of all, you calculated the fly way cost without weapon, spares and training..., the total system cost is $4.6 billions (so around $191 millions for each fighter).
> 
> In comparison:
> 
> 
> 
> Which means, that they paid a system price of $80 millions for each fighter. However, we must keep in mind that the UAE also funded the development of the AESA radar, or avionic systems, what means we might pay more for R&D.
> 
> Secondly, numbers makes a clear difference! The lower the order, the higher the costs per unit. The system costs of the F18SH will be very different for us, then those for Australia.



if the flyway cost for each f18sh comes to 100M or nearabouts, thats just very very expensive. f35s are going to be offered at near that price point. 

looks like the f16s won't be much cheaper either. both are bloody expensive platforms.


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## gowthamraj

When the hell they announce the short list


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## SpArK

*Gripen NG matures and waits for India*



Sweden is advancing its own Gripen development path alongside that of the Gripen Next Generation aircraft intended for export, which is currently awaiting the outcome of major competitions in Brazil and India. The Swedish air force is now talking openly about a JAS 39E/F version that would draw on many of the technologies being applied to the NG program.

In the shorter term, in March Saab received a contract worth around $256 million from the Swedish defense material administration (FMV) for an upgrade package that will improve countermeasures and communications, integrate new weapons such as the Meteor (the acquisition of which was recently approved by the Swedish government) and provide extra range and functions to the Gripen&#8217;s PS-05/A radar. It also includes measures to reduce operational costs, based on experience from the 130,000 flying hours achieved with the Gripen fleet.

This contract helps define the Gripen&#8217;s Material System 20 as part of the rolling capability sustainment program that is in force for the type. Shortly after this deal was done, Saab received another commission to expand the capabilities of the aircraft&#8217;s SPK 39 reconnaissance system. This enhances night capability and user interface, and will also allow the Gripen to feed imagery into the sensor source intelligence cells being produced to support the country&#8217;s new Shadow 200 unmanned air vehicles.

MS21 Version
Saab already has the next major iteration in its sights. The MS21 version is to include a major review of the aircraft&#8217;s avionics system, including computers and displays, with the accent placed on handling vastly increased amounts of information at differing security classification levels. The architecture will also to be able to handle new types of sensors.

It is evident that the MS21 will become the JAS 39E/F, and that it will be based closely on the AESA-equipped Gripen NG. Although the exact nature of an &#8220;MS21 Gripen&#8221; has yet to be defined, it will almost certainly incorporate the more powerful General Electric F414G engine. An avionics development contract was awarded to Saab in May and is expected to lead to a concept evaluation review later this year. Preliminary design reviews will be undertaken next year, leading to full development starting in 2012. 

Sweden expects to have the JAS 39E/F in service by around 2017, although it has committed to bring that date forward if Brazil adopts the Gripen so that the customer does not shoulder the burden of fielding a major new version on its own.

Development of what is now known as the Gripen NG began around 2004, a year before the JAS 39C/D achieved IOC. Predictions of airpower requirements for the 2015-2020 time frame suggested the need for new sensors, greater range and larger warloads. After analysis of other options, it was concluded that a developed Gripen NG could meet the requirements, with technology to be demonstrated in a &#8220;Demo&#8221; aircraft that would also become a de facto prototype for the NG. Initial estimates put the cost at approximately $230 million but that was considered too high, leading to the formation of an industrial partnership that cut the costs by 60 percent. In fact, the Gripen Demo came in some 15 percent below that budget.

The Gripen Demo technology demonstration program has been conducted in two phases and involves a flying demonstrator and an avionics rig. *Phase 1* flight tests got under way with a first flight on May 27, 2008, during which the extensively modified two-seater validated the aerodynamic changes caused by moving the main undercarriage to under the wingroots, the addition of underfuselage pylons, new drop tanks and the installation of the uprated General Electric F414G engine. Phase 1 was completed after 79 flights.

*Phase 2* introduced further modifications to the aircraft, including extra fuel capacity and, most importantly, installation of a development version of the Selex/Saab ES-05 Raven AESA radar. This phase was brought to a conclusion this February after a further 73 flights. During the initial Demo campaign, all goals were achieved, including a Mach 1.6-plus speed and a supercruise (non-afterburning) capability of greater than Mach 1.2.

Following the end of official Phase 2 trials, the Gripen Demo aircraft continued development work, but in May was dispatched to India in support of Saab&#8217;s entry in the country&#8217;s MMRCA multi-role fighter competition. MMRCA envisions the acquisition of 126 aircraft, with the first 18 to be built by the original manufacturer, followed by a stepped transition to Indian production. Saab is pitching its Gripen NG against the Boeing F/A-18E/F, Dassault Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon, Lockheed Martin F-16IN and the Mikoyan MiG-35.

Although Saab had already demonstrated the JAS 39C/D in India in March (20 evaluation flights), and Indian pilots had flown the Gripen Demo in Sweden during April, the demonstrator deployed to India for an in-country evaluation. Earlier it had been announced that ongoing test work would mean the Gripen Demo was unavailable to make the trip. This was widely seen as being detrimental to the Gripen bid&#8217;s cause and resulted in a reversal of the decision. Routing via Kecskemet in Hungary, Athens, Hurghada in Egypt, Riyadh and the United Arab Emirates, the Demo aircraft and its Raven AESA radar arrived in India in late May.

*High-altitude Ops*
During its stay, the Gripen Demo flew eight evaluation sorties, including in-flight refueling from an Ilyushin Il-78 tanker and operations from Leh. Located in disputed Jammu and Kashmir, close to the scene of the 1999 Kargil war, Leh is of strategic value to India but, at 10,826 feet elevation, is one of the world&#8217;s highest airfields. The Gripen Demo operated with ease from the base, and performed well in other trials. According to Eddy de la Motte, Saab&#8217;s India campaign director, &#8220;We are confident that this aircraft meets, or exceeds, every operational requirement raised by the Indian Air Force.&#8221;

The return to Sweden of the Demo aircraft brought to an end the MMRCA flying evaluation phase. Meanwhile, the final bid deadline has been extended a year, allowing some of the competitors to refine their proposals. It is expected that the technical evaluation will initially produce a down-select to three competitors, after which the politics are likely to become an increasing factor. 

Politics have certainly played their part in the Brazilian FX2 new fighter competition, in which the Gripen is pitched against the Rafale and Super Hornet. In September last year President Lula announced the selection of the Rafale, but at the time of writing there is no sign of a contract.

An interesting aside to the Brazilian and Indian deals is the proposal by Saab of a Sea Gripen, as both countries have aircraft carriers. Developed initially to meet Sweden&#8217;s stringent dispersed short-field operations doctrine, the Gripen already possesses many of the characteristics required in a carrier-borne aircraft. Modifications for sea-going operations are said to be relatively straightforward, but Saab has signaled that it would pursue this avenue further only if Brazil or India signed up for the Gripen NG.


http://www.ainonline.com/news/single-news-page/article/gripen-ng-matures-and-waits-for-india-25411/


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## sancho

> *IAF expects combat jet selection within a year, submits trials report *
> 
> By Gulshan Luthra and Air Marshal Ashok Goel (Retd)
> 
> 
> New Delhi. The Indian Air Force has submitted its Field Evaluation Trials (FET) report of Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (M-MRCA) to the Government, and expects selection of the fighter jet within a year.
> Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal P V Naik told India Strategic in an interview that the exhaustive report covered all the aircraft, and that once the selection has been made, *he expected the chosen MRCA to be in service within three years, say by 2014*.
> 
> ACM Naik also disclosed that after the M-MRCA trials, IAF had also completed field trials of Utility helicopters and Combat helicopters in India. The trials of the Heavy Lift helicopters were meanwhile in the final phase.
> 
> The next four years are crucial but by 2014, IAF would have all the new aircraft and helicopters well in place as part of its transformation process now underway, he said adding that each of the new system is now being acquired along with its training simulators.
> 
> The full report of the interview will be published in India Strategic's August issue, coming mid-month.
> 
> As for the M-MRCA selection process, the Air Chief apparently gave no indication as to how each of the six aircraft in the fray performed during the trials. *He only observed that the IAF had completed its assignment, and submitted the report to the Ministry of Defence July-end, and on time as promised.
> *
> The Russian Mig 35 (initially designated Mig 29M2), Europes Eurofighter Typhoon, Swedish Gripen, French Rafale, and the US Boeing F/A 18 E/F Super Hornet and Lockheed Martins F 16IN Super Viper are in the fray. The RfP was for 126 aircraft with an option for 63 more...



..:: India Strategic ::.. Indian Air Force: IAF expects combat jet selection within a year, submits trials report


Interesting statement of the air chief, because it confirms that the aim is still induction of the first squad in 2014! That means the techs and capabilities for the offered fighters must be ready by then, what the EF can't offer for sure (early AESA radars only by 2015) and leaves question marks behind the Mig and the Gripen (available only as tech demonstrators and final design is still undecided).

From the Brazilian competition it was reported, that exactly this unnknown status of the Gripen was rated as high risk in the technical evaluation and reduced its chances to win dramatically. If the IAF technical evaluation has a point of risks too, Gripen, the Mig and the EF should be rated low in this field too and could be a reason against the shortlisting to the final stages.


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## rajgoynar

MRCA news



Its the biggest fighter aircraft deal since the early 1990s, said Boeings Mark Kronenberg, who runs the companys Asia/Pacific business. Indias planned multi-billion dollar jet fighter buy is a contest between Dassault, Saab, MiG, American competitors and EADS Eurofighter.

What began as a lightweight fighter competition to replace Indias shrinking MiG-21 interceptor fleet appears to have bifurcated into 2 categories now, and 2 expense tiers. Whats going on? In a word, lots. The participants changed, Indias view of its own needs is changing, and the nature of the order may be changing as well  but with the release of the official $10 billion RFP, the competition can begin at last. DID offers an in-depth look at the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) competitions changes, the RFP, and the competitors; and also offers an updated timeline regarding competitive moves since this article was published in March 2006

* Indias MRCA: Changes
* MMRCA: The RFP, Please
* The Competitors: Analysis
* MMRCA: Updates and Developments [updated]
* Appendix A  MMRCA: The Naval Angle
* Appendix B  Dassaults Move: Au Revoir, Mirage
* Additional Readings



The original intent of Indias fighter purchase was to replace hundreds of non-upgraded MiG-21s that India will be forced to retire, with a complementary force of 126 aircraft that would fit between Indias high end Su-30MKIs and its low-end Tejas LCA lightweight fighter. While plans to develop a fifth generation fighter in conjunction with Russia have received a lot of press, they are uncertain at best, address a different requirement, and offer no solution to the immediate problem of shrinking squadron numbers as existing aircraft are forced into retirement.

India is a large country, with coverage needs over a wide area (see map of airbases in Order of Battle) and on several fronts. One of which is Pakistan, whose JF-17 joint fighter program with China has Indias attention. The IAF currently has 30-32 squadrons worth of serviceable aircraft, depending on which report one reads. This is well below their target of 39 1/2. The number of IAF squadrons still flying MiG-21s of one vintage or another has now dropped to 12, and overall squadron strength is projected to plunge to 27 during the 2012-2017 period.

Lightweight multi-role fighters that could make up for declining aircraft numbers with broader and better capabilities would appear to fit that need, and Indias initial shortlist followed that template. The Mirage 2000 and MiG-29 were already in service with India in this role, and the JAS-39 Gripen offered a 4th generation aircraft whose costs and profile place it firmly in the lightweight fighter category. These aircraft served as a hedge against the potential failure of the Tejas lightweight Combat Aircraft project, and also offered a more immediate solution to plussing up numbers as existing MiG-21s and MiG-23s/MiG-27s were forced into retirement.

Since those early days, sharply improved relations with the USA have introduced a pair of American planes into the competition, and Indias view of its own needs is changing. Official sources told Janes in February 2006 that RFPs would be issued to Frances Dassault (Mirage 2000-5 and Rafale), BAE/Saab (JAS-39 Gripen), EADS/BAE (Eurofighter Typhoon), The American firms Lockheed (F-16 Block 70) and Boeing (F/A-18 E/F Super Hornet), and Russias Rosonboronexport (MiG-29OVT with thrust vectoring, aka. MiG-35).

That proved to be the case, creating a 2-tiered competition that includes both lightweight and medium fighters. This trend got a sharp boost in March 2006, when the Press Trust of India (PTI) reported a surprise pullout of the Mirage 2000, even though India already flies 40 Mirage 2000Ds, and its senior officials have touted standardization as a plus factor. Its place would be taken by the heavier, more advanced, and more expensive Rafale.

Indias changing requirements have also created delays to an already-slow process. For instance, both Janes Defence Weekly and Defense Industry Daily have covered Indias wish to significantly augment their strike capability and range to deal with out-of-area contingencies. That delayed the MRCA RFP, until Indias view of its own needs solidified. Another contributor to these delays has been the need to refine and clarify the new industrial offset rules introduced in 2005, amidst lobbying by American defense firms.

MMRCA: The RFP, Please
MiG-29 India top
IAF MiG-29, 

Indias defense procurement process is definitely a game for the patient, and this competition has been no exception. The Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) RFP caps a process that began in 2001, when the IAF sent out its request for information (RFI) for 126 jets. After delays lasting almost 2 years beyond the planned December 2005 issue date, Indias Ministry of Defence finally announced a formal Request for Proposal on Aug 28/07.

The RFP announcement estimated the program at 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA), at a cost of Rs. 42,000 crores (about $10.24 billion as of the RFP date, or about $81.3 million per fighter). The 211-page document includes clauses for initial purchase, transfer of technology, licensed production, and life-time maintenance support for the aircraft. Under the terms of purchase, the first 18 aircraft will come in a fly away condition, while the remaining 108 will be manufactured under Transfer of Technology. Some reports add an option for an additional 64 aircraft on the same terms, bringing the total to 190 aircraft; DID is attempting to confirm this.

The vendors had 6 months to submit their proposals. Selection involves an exhaustive evaluation process as detailed in the Defence Procurement Procedures (DPP) 2006. First, submitted proposals will be technically evaluated by a professional team to check for compliance with IAFs operational requirements and other RFP conditions. Then extensive field trials evaluate aircraft performance. Finally, the short listed vendors commercial proposals are examined and compared. The defence ministrys Contract Negotiation Committee (CNC) would then hold discussions with the vendors before identifying their preferred manufacturer. Their report goes to the defence minister, who must forward it to the finance minister. After the file returns to the defence ministry, it goes for final approval to the cabinet committee on security (CCS).

This is not a speedy process. The selection process alone is likely to take at least 2 1/2 years, to be followed by lengthy price negotiations, and probably including delays along the way. Most observers believe that delivery of any aircraft is unlikely before 2013.

The vendor who finally wins will be required to undertake 50% offset obligations in India. Thats a boost from the usual 30%, which is required for Indian defense purchases over $70 million. The additional 20% was added because India is looking for a large boost to its aerospace and defense electronics industries, and understands that the size of their purchase gives them additional leverage. The Indian MoDs RFP release adds that Foreign vendors would be provided great flexibility in effecting tie up with Indian partners for this purpose. It also says that:

The aircraft are likely to be in service for over 40 years. Great care has been taken to ensure that only determinable factors, which do not lend themselves to any subjectivity, are included in the commercial selection model. The selection would be transparent and fair.

It may be recalled that the Defence Minister Shri A K Antony while chairing the Defence Acquisition Council Meeting on June 29, 2007 had outlined three guiding principles for this procurement scheme. First, the operational requirements of IAF should be fully met. Second, the selection process should be competitive, fair and transparent, so that best value for money is realized. Lastly, Indian defence industries should get an opportunity to grow to global scales.

Once again, speed is not a key criterion. Part of the reason for that is Indias past history of procedural problems. American competitions are increasingly finding themselves paralyzed by quasi-legal challenges of evaluation methods, and even of their chosen criteria. Witness the hold-ups created for the CSAR-X helicopter competition, Joint Cargo Aircraft, ITES-2 I.T. contract, etc. Indian competitions have featured these sorts of post-contract obstacles even more consistently, with long bureaucratic delays and corruption charges thrown into the mix for good measure.

Time will tell if the objectives of the MoDs RFP are met, or if a process of waiting almost 6 years for an RFP, and then years more for a winner, is only the beginning of the process.

Even as Indias existing fighter fleet continues to wear out, and China and Pakistans fleets continue to grow.

The Competitors: Analysis
ELEC_AN-APG-79_Ops_Concept.jpg
AESA usage concept


Recent changes in Indias needs and the contest participants are changing the relative rankings of the contenders. Geopolitical considerations are also intruding, as most of these choices have the potential to improve relations with an important potential ally. Standardization arguments will also carry weight. As of January 2006, Indias Air Force operated 26 different aircraft types, and the IAF is not eager to add to its support headaches.

Rather than attempting to predict, DID will simply summarize the strengths and weaknesses of the listed competitors. These aircraft also group into two very different categories: single engine lightweight fighters in the $25-50 million flyaway cost range (F-16 Falcon, JAS-39 Gripen, MiG-35); and larger dual-engine mid-range fighters in the $65-120 million flyaway range (Eurofighter, F/A-18 Super Hornet, Rafale).

Note that Active Electronically-Scanned Array (AESA) radars have a number of benefits over conventional mechanically-scanned radars, including durability, maintenance, the ability to track both air and ground targets via continuous scans instead of rapid switching, and potential electronic attack uses. A narrower field of view with less sidelobe leakage is both an asset and a drawback, depending on the situation. All MMRCA contenders to date appear to be proposing AESA radars in their fighters.

Lightweight Fighters
F-16F Block 60 UAE
F-16F Desert Falcon


F-16 Fighting Falcon (Lockheed, USA). Presumably, Lockheeds Block 70 offering would be an upgraded version of the F-16E Block 60 Desert Falcon currently serving with the UAE. Strengths include the widest multi-role capability among lightweight fighters; its proven AN/APG-80 AESA radar; the addition of integrated IRST (Infra Red Search & Track) capability; the widest choice of proven avionics and weapon systems; a long record of proven service so all issues are known; and widespread compatibility with potential allies in Asia and the Middle East who also fly F-16s. The combination of an AESA radar on a less expensive platform is also good news for cruise missile defense efforts, if thats considered a priority.

Even so, the Indian Air Force has never seemed very interested in the F-16. Weaknesses include the fact that Pakistan also flies F-16s; the fact its a new aircraft type, so the entire support infrastructure would have to be developed; Lockheed Martins difficulty in complying with industrial offset provisions, given their lack of penetration in India. The MMRCA RFPs delays may have helped Lockheed, by allowing them ample time to find arrangements with Indian firms. There are also reports that the US government is pushing this option, because of the regional reassurance factor. While an F-16 E/F Block 60+ would have a number of important advantages over Pakistan F-16 A/Bs and even its new Block 50/52 aircraft, the common underlying aircraft type would probably take some of the edge off of the deal from Pakistans point of view.
JAS-39 Gripens in South Africa
JAS-39s in South Africa


JAS-39 Gripen (Saab, Sweden; marketed by Britains BAE). The Gripen is a true 4th+ generation lightweight fighter and significantly more capable than category competitors like the F-16 and Mirage 2000, though the MiG-35 may give it a run for the money. Gripen NG begins to address the aircrafts range limitations, and would include an AESA radar among its other enhancements. Other strengths include a wide choice of integrated weapons and pods; reasonable purchase cost; the fact that it has been designed for exceptional cost of ownership; and the ability operate from roads instead of runways if necessary. With respect to industrial offsets, Saab has made a strong offer, backed by excellent record in countries like South Africa, Hungary, The Czech Republic et. al.

As an interesting side note, the JAS-39NGs use of GEs F414G engine could create future commonality with the failed Kaveri engines successor. The Tejas LCA will use GEs F404 engines until an Indian substitute is ready, and GEs F414 is one of 2 engines under consideration as the basis for the Tejas Mk2s power plant.

The JAS-39s drawbacks include its short range; the fact its a new aircraft type for the IAF; its AESA radars developmental status; and a low volume of international orders to date that raises questions about the platforms ability to modernize over the next 30-40 years. While ordering a Swedish fighter carries no geopolitical benefits, the platform does have a wid card in South Africas adoption, and Brazils potential adoption. These 3 countries are beginning to collaborate more closely in defense matters, and a common fighter platform could offer intriguing military and industrial benefits.
MiG-29OVT MAKS 2005
MiG-29OVT/-35


MiG-29OVT, aka. MiG-35 (Rosonboronexport, Russia). This modified MiG-29 includes improved radar and avionics that give it multi-role capability, extra fuel in a new aircraft spine, and thrust-vectoring engines a la Indias SU-30MKIs. Strengths include compatibility with the existing and future MiG-29 fleet, and its ability to carry advanced Russian missiles already in service like the revolutionary AA-11/R-73 Archer and longer range AA-12/R-77 AMRAAMski. The presence of MiG-29 infrastructure and a new plant for license-building RD-33 Series III engines in India also makes compliance with industrial offset requirements easier.

The MiG-29s biggest weaknesses were short range, engines that produce telltale smoke (very bad in air combat) and lack of true multi-role capability; the MiG-35 largely fixes these issues, and may even add an AESA radar of its own if Phazotron-NIIR can have its new Zhuk-AE ready in time. Technology sharing and co-production are also considered to be strengths; as one Indian officer put it: Russians have their problems of delayed projects and unreliable spare supply but they give access to everything, unlike the Americans. Hes referring to the IAFs not-so-great experience with Indias existing MiG-29s, which have had maintenance problems in addition to their other deficits.

Remaining weaknesses in the MiG-35 bid include the serious difficulties India has had with Russian firms over the refit of its new carrier, order for more Mi-17 helicopters, and order for 3 more Krivak-III class frigates. All have featured failure to deliver, and post-contract price renegotiation demands that have raised prices up to 200%. Reports that MiG-35 delivery cannot start before 2014 at the earliest add a further disadvantage, especially compared to competitors with active production lines and rapid delivery capability.

There has also been legitimate speculation about the future viability of the MiG-29 family platform, which has been eclipsed by the SU-30 family. Despite Yemens interest in buying more MiGs, Algerias canceled $1.8 billion order adds further risk to a platform whose current order book revolves around refurbishment programs. India has ordered a handful of MiG-29K variants as its future carrier aircraft. Nevertheless, doubling down to add the MiG-35 would make India the first customer for both variants  neither of which has other sale opportunities on the near horizon. That could be spun as a positive industrial opportunity, but its also a cost and risk issue.
AIR_LCA_Tejas_Underside.jpg
Tejas LCA


Mirage 2000-5 (Dassault). Withdrawn. Industry analyst Richard Aboulafia points out that the history of global fighter purchases shows strong clustering at the lower-price end of the market; shutting down Mirage 2000 production will shut Dassault out of that niche. A Mirage 2000 entry would have had strengths that included compatibility with Mirage 2000s already in service, which performed very well in the 1999 Kargil skirmishes. An infrastructure already exists for industrial offsets, and its low end price could be raised along with its capabilities by adding equipment developed in the Rafale program.

The Mirage 2000s potential performance similarity to the Tejas LCA project was both its weakness and its strength. One the one hand, that would have made it a good insurance policy if confidence in the Tejas fell. On the other hand, it may not have been seen as adding enough to the force mix if confidence in the Tejas program remained high. On Dassaults end, the firm decided that it couldnt keep that entire production line open without foreign orders for several years, while India decided on a potential buy. The aircraft was withdrawn before the official RFP was released, in favor of the larger and more expensive Rafale.

Tejas LCA (HAL et. al., India). A lightweight, indigenously-developed fighter aircraft expected to enter service around 2010. Currently in testing using GEs F404 engine, while Indias accompanying Kaveri jet engine project stalled and was scrapped in favor of a potential new engine partnership. The Tejas is not an MRCA competitor  but its development plans, the confidence in its success, its ability to stay under $25 million, the potential for a naval variant, et. al. will have a behind-the-curtains influence on every MRCA decision. See India: LCA Tejas by 2010, but Foreign Help Sought for more.

Mid-Range Fighters
AIR SU-30MKI Eurofighter Tornado-F3
Indra Dhanush 2007:
SU-30MKI, Typhoon, F3


Eurofighter Typhoon (EADS/BAE, Europe & Britain). A fourth generation aircraft currently optimized for the air-air role through its performance characteristics and what is by all accounts an excellent pilot interface. One surprise plus for Eurofighter could be its Eurojet EJ200 engines, which are being considered as the base powerplant for Indias LCA Tejas Mk2.

Typhoon fighters reportedly have supercruise capability beyond Mach 1 without using afterburners, though some analysts have cast doubt on how sustainable that is once weapons are attached. Some observers believe that aside from the F-22A Raptor, the Eurofighter is the next-best in-service air superiority aircraft world-wide, though the 2007 Indra Dhanush exercise that matched it up against Indias SU-30MKI makes a case for the MKI. Tranche 2 upgrades are giving this plane full multi-role capabilities, and Indias delay has given those developments more time to mature.

With respect to industrial offsets, BAE already has an order from India for 66 BAE Hawk trainers, 42 of which are being built in India. That order has run into trouble, however, which could hurt the Typhoons chances. Given EADS key role in the Eurofighter consortium, Airbus might also be able to contribute on this front.

Weaknesses include the aircrafts $100+ million expense, which may stretch Indias budget to the breaking point; the fact its a new aircraft type for the IAF so the entire support infrastructure would have to be developed; its lack of naval capability; the developmental status of its CAESAR (Captor AESA Radar) technology; and the non-existent geopolitical benefits of selecting it. Given the Eurofighters performance and costs, simply buying more SU-30MKIs would appear to make far more sense.
AIR_F-18E_Super_Hornet_Parked.jpg
F/A-18E, Parked


F/A-18 E/F Super Hornet (Boeing, USA). Highly upgraded version of the F/A-18 A-D Hornet, enlarged and given new engines and avionics. Commonality between the Hornet and Super Hornet is only about 25%. Strengths include its powerful AN/APG-79 AESA radar, which has drawn significant interest from India. This radar could allow Super Hornets to play a unique role in Indias fighter fleet as versatile quarterbacks (or better yet, cricket captains) due to their radars performance and information sharing abilities. Other advantages include carrier capability, a very wide range of integrated weapons, a design that is proven in service and in combat, F414 engines that may also serve as the base for LCA Tejas Mk2; and complete assurance in its future upgrade spiral, given the US Navys commitment to it.

The existence of a dedicated electronic warfare variant as of 2009 in the EA-18G Growler may also be a potent motivator, as the growth of sophisticated air defense systems will place a growing premium on this unique capability. Last but certainly not least, this choice offers an opportunity to create an early win which would strengthen Indias new alliance with the USA and prove its new status in the world. After all, when clearance for the aircraft was given, no other nation had even been offered the F/A-18 E/F Super Hornet.

Since then, of course, close American ally Australia has bought 24 F/A-18F Block IIs in a controversial A$ 6 billion purchase, and even taken steps to modify 12 aircraft toward EA-18G Growler status. Australias deployment of Super Hornets gives the platform an additional selling point in the allied commonality department, and Boeings planned $1.5 billion investment in Indias aerospace market may help deal with defense industrial offset issues. The Super Hornets Boeing connection adds many industrial options in the civil aircraft market as well.

Weaknesses of the Super Hornet platform include deep distrust of Americas reliability as an arms supplier, technology transfer concerns, and the aircrafts expense. Given the costs to other customers so far, it seems unlikely that Boeing can deliver 126 fully-equipped F/A-18 E/F Block II aircraft for just $10.2 billion, let alone aircraft plus lifetime support. The Super Hornet also offers poorer aerodynamic performance than the Eurofighter or Rafale, due to inherent airframe limitations. Finally, its a new aircraft type for the IAF, so the entire support infrastructure would have to be developed from the ground up.
AIR Rafale with MICA Storm Shadow-Scalp
Rafale w. Scalp


Rafale (Dassault, France). Advantages include demonstrated carrier capability in the Rafale-M, which could be a very big factor if the RFP includes that as a requirement. If so, it offers superior aerodynamic performance vs. the F/A-18 family, has exceptional ordnance capacity for its size, and can have its range extended via conformal fuel tanks. The Rafale claims supercruise capability, but observers are skeptical, and it has been challenging to demonstrate this with the Snecma R88-2 engine. The Rafale also offers some equipment, maintenance and spares commonalities with existing Mirage 2000 fleet, which would probably increase if Indias Mirage 2000s are modernized in future. At the moment, however, thats a big if. Frances general reliability as a weapons supplier, good history of product support, and long-standing relations with India, offers additional plusses.

Weaknesses include the continuing absence of a compatible surveillance and advanced targeting pod, the need for additional funds and work to integrate many non-French weapons if one wishes to use them on the Rafale, and its lack of an AESA radar until Thales finishes developing the RBE2-AA. The Rafales failure to win any export competitions is also an issue  one that reaches beyond mere perception of also-ran status. As Singapores choice has shown, export failures are already forcing cuts in future Rafale procurement, in order to pay for modernization. That dynamic is likely to get worse over the next 30 years.

Initial reports indicated that the Rafale did not meet Indias technical evaluation criteria, because critical information was not included. Dassault persisted, and their fighter is now back in the race.
F-35B Cutaway
F-35B JSF Cutaway
by John Batchelor


F-35 Joint Stike Fighter (Lockheed-led, multinational). In February 2006, Indias Chief Air Marshal recently specificaly noted that the JSF was not in their plans for this buy, a likelihood that DIDs analysis had noted earlier due to probable lack of availability before 2015. The August 2007 MRCA RFP confirmed this.

If it were flying today, the F-35B STOVL variant would probably be by far the best fit for Indias requirements. The planes would be carrier-capable from all of Indias naval air platforms, including smaller carriers the size of INS Viraat (ex-Hermes) or LHD amphibious assault ships, and could use roads and short field runways on land for maximum operational flexibility. F-35 JSFs would sport ultra-advanced systems that include the AN/APG-81 AESA radar, and incredibly advanced sensor systems and electronics that would make it Indias most capable reconnaissance asset and even a potential electronic warfare aircraft. Other strengths would include greater stealth than any other competitor, which is critical for both air-air dogfights and strikes on defended targets. The Super Hornet may be able to fill the role of an aerial cricket captain, but the JSF is more like Sachin Tendulkar.

India has been invited to F-35 events. With potential US order numbers dropping, India might even be accepted into the program if they pushed for it. The F-35s killer weakness was timing. Its advanced systems, established industrial partnership structure and program procurement policies could also make it nearly impossible to meet Indias industrial offset rules.

MMRCA: Updates and Developments
MiG-35D
MiG-35D


July 21/10: At Farnborough 2010, HAL and its partners announce a significant piece of equipment for global F-16s. Right now, F-16s can only be refueled via a dorsal refueling boom, but many air forces depend on refueling probes that fit into hose-and-drogue systems, a preference shared by the US Navy. Indias competition requires hose-and-drogue refueling  and now a team of HAL, Lockheed Martin, Flight Refueling Ltd. in the UK, and Israel Aerospace Industries has a solution.

Many F-16s already carry conformal fuel tanks that add lots of fuel, but minimize the associated drag and performance hit. The Conformal Aerial Refueling Tank System (CARTS) modifies the right-forward conformal tank to include a pop-out refueling probe, and the system feeds fuel into the fighter directly through the same refuel manifold that a refueling boom would use. This makes CARTS a plug-and-play solution that can be retrofitted to global F-16 fleets, and gives the team a key niche product no matter what choice India makes. Defense World | F-16.NET (incl. picture).

June 10/10: At Berlins ILA 2010 air show, EADS Defence & Security CEO Stefan Zoller tells IANS that:

We will transfer some of our development projects, which we have in Europe for Eurofighter or other military aircraft to India, where we have set up a military research and development (R&D) centre in Bangalore. We will transfer 60 percent of the Eurofighter technology to India if Typhoon wins the bid. Our long-term strategy is to partner with the Indian aerospace industry for our global market, as we consider the Indian talent and resources. We also want to establish a division of our defence and security wing in India independent of the IAF order for Typhoon not to duplicate what we are doing in Europe but replicate its business model to leverage the potential of the Indian aerospace industry through joint ventures and offset projects.

See Indias Economic Times.

April 28/10: No decision for you. India needs to extend its competition for a year, because competitor flight trials wont be finished until some time in May 2010. Today was to be the deadline and bid expiry, 2 years after accepting price quotes. Indias Defense Ministry has asked manufacturers to submit offers for an additional year. Flight trials remain underway at 3 key locations: near Leh, high in the Himalayas; a desert base in Rajasthan; and Bangalores tropical climate. The expectation is that the IAF will provide the government with 2-3 accetable options, then let the politicians pick.

Lockheed Martin (F-16 Block 60+) and Boeing (F/A-18 E/F Super Hornet) have said that they are modifying their bids, Swedens Saab (JAS-39NG) plans to extend its bid unchanged, and Dassault (Rafale), EADS (Eurofighter), and RAC-MiG (MiG-35) have made no public commitment one way or another. This 1-year delay could raise costs, but more favorable exchange rates could shift prices the other way. It also gives competitors who have deepened their Indian partnerships the ability to revise that information in their offer.

From the MMRCA bid due date of April 28/08 to April 28/10, the US dollar has risen against Indias rupee about 10.5%, while the Euro has become 6% cheaper, and the Russian rouble has become 11.6% cheaper.

March 9/10: Sweden flies its Gripen fighters into Bangalore for MMRCA-related trials  but Indias Business Standard reports that theyll be JAS-39D Gripens, not the new Gripen NG. That could get the platform disqualified, depending on the decisions made by the IAF and Indian MoD:

The Gripen NG has always been one of the hottest contenders in the fray. Saabs default on the MoDs trial directive, which lays down that the fighter being offered must be the one that comes for trials [leaves it] vulnerable to disqualification. the Swedish Air Force, having opted to buy the Gripen NG, has ordered a series of improvements on the Gripen NG prototype. With those under way, Swedens flight certification agency, SMV, has ruled that the prototypes require additional flight-testing in Sweden before the aircraft can be sent to India. Sources close to the Gripen campaign say IAF pilots will be offered a chance to fly the Gripen NG during a visit to Sweden from April 6 to April 10. Gripen International will also ask for fresh dates for bringing the Gripen NG to India for trials.

Feb 20/10: Pallam Raju, Indias Minister of State for defence, tells Reuters that:

The trials should conclude by the middle of this year. Once the trials are concluded, then we will be looking into the financial bids. We are speeding up things.

Its hard to tell just what that means, in India, where taking over a decade to buy ready-made equipment in not unusual. Economic Times of India.

Feb 3/10: Eurojet says it will share single-crystal engine blade technologies with India if Eurofighter wins MMRCA, or the EJ200 engine is selected for the LCA Tejas Mk2.

Nov 23/09: Indias Ministry of Defence offers a laconic update of the MMRCA program:

The proposal for procurement of quantity 126 Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) for the Indian Air Force has not been finalized. The proposals received in response to the Request for Proposals are presently at Field Evaluation Trials stage. The estimated cost of the proposal is Rs. 42,000 crores approximately.

At this days interbank conversion rate, 42,000 crore (INR 420 billion) = $9.055 billion.

Oct 16/09: Indias Business Standard reports that the long-awaited Mirage 2000 upgrade deal may have fallen through. The beneficiary would be the MMRCA competition for 126+ medium fighters, which would rise to 8 squadrons via a follow on order or local production of 2 more squadrons (40-48 planes, to replace 51 Mirage 2000s). According to their report, however, Dassault may have hurt its chances there, too:

According to senior IAF sources, Dassault has refused to reduce its quota of Rs 10,000 crore ($2.1 billion) for extending the service life of the IAFs Mirage-2000 fleet by fitting new radars and avionics. The Ministry of Defence (MoD) considers this price  Rs 196 crore ($41 million) per aircraft  unacceptably high. Israeli aerospace companies have reportedly entered the fray, offering to upgrade the Mirage-2000 for half the price being quoted by Dassault. The MoD, however, is not inclined to accept that offer.

....The IAF, traditionally a staunch supporter of Dassault and the Mirage-2000 fighter, is apparently changing its views. Dassault, say pilots, has badly damaged its credibility during the recent negotiations by arm-twisting the IAF over the supply of spares for the Mirage-2000 fleet.

Sept 17/09: Russias RIA Novosti reports that Phazotron NIIR corporation has developed the Zhuk-AE AESA radar for the MiG-35, but Forecast International quotes Phazotron-NIIR head Vyacheslav Tishchenko as saying that We are ready to develop a new advanced radar jointly with India.

The Zhuk-AE reportedly meets the MMRCA RFPs requirement of an active array radar with a target detection range of at least 130 km/ 81 miles. Phazotron general director Vyacheslav Tishchenko is quoted as saying that the X-band, AESA Zhuk-AE has a range of 148 km/ 92 miles, can track 30 aerial targets in the track-while-scan mode, and can engage 6 targets simultaneously. Tishchenko reportedly believes that detection range may be able to grow to 200 km/ 124 miles, as the design uses many elements of previous radars and is not optimized for AESA. See also APAs Phazotron Zhuk AE/ASE: Assessing Russias First AESA.

Aug 13/09: Russian spokesmen reportedly say that production of the MiG-35 cannot begin before 2013-14, which means that the IAF would not be able to take delivery before 2014. Unless the competition itself is delayed, thats likely to put the MiG-35 at a significant disadvantage against the other competitors, all of whom would be able to begin delivering aircraft by 2011 or even 2010. RIA Novosti | Deccan Chronicle.

July 6/09: Israeli and Indian newspapers report that the USA has pressured Israels IAI not to partner with Swedens Saab in the MMRCA competition against American firms. IAI would have offered integrated avionics and related systems for the MMRCA competition. Israel was forced to give the USA de facto veto authority over its weapons exports, as a condition of being eligible to participate in the F-35 fighter program.

The Jerusalem Post reported that the USA had expressed concern that Western technology in Israeli hands would make its way to the Indians. Thats a completely illogical concern, of course, goven that Boeing and Lockheed Martin have been cleared to offer the most advanced versions of their fighter jets, complete with AESA radars, to India in the same competition. The only logical conclusion is that the move is a pure political favor to Lockheed Martin and Boeing. The Jerusalem Post report adds that Israel was also pressured out of Turkeys $500+ million tank competition  which American firm General Dynamics ended up losing to South Koreas XK-2, anyway. Jerusalem Post | Indian Express | Zopag.

May 15/09: Rafales return. Indian media confirm that assaults Rafale has been readmitted to the MMRCA competition. The quality requirements it had failed to meet reportedly involve information on key systems that was not provided to India, and that issue has reportedly been fixed.

The Rafale will now participate in MMRCA aircraft trials, and recently gained another boost to its prospects. Thales recently completed flight tests for its RBE2-AA active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar. The next batch of about 60 Rafales for the French air force and navy is expected to include this radar, and it will also be offered for export. domain-b | The Hindu | Times of India | Zee News.
Rafale Le Bourget 2005
India: another one
bites the dust?


May 13/09: An Aviation Week report has this quote, despite statements by several Indian officials that the Rafale has been eliminated:

We are still preparing, actively, technology demonstrations for later this year and early next year, says Jean-Noel Stock, who leads Rafale efforts at Thales, which is responsible for around a third of the weapons system. He stresses that Rafale is still in competition for the 126 fighter deal. By years end, the company expects the first full-production contract for the [RBE2-AA] AESA [equipped Rafales] in France

April 16/09: Indian media report that Dassaults Rafale has been disqualified from Indias MMRCA competition. Exact reasons were not specified, beyond vague reports that it did not meet the General Staff Quality Requirements.

Dassault is measured in its public replies, stating only that Rafale International has not been formally made aware of any such decision. If these reports are true, however, Dassaults move to strangle its Swedish competitor by denying it Thales radar may have ended up costing Thales any chance of an order from India.

Disqualification at this technical trials stage means that the Rafale would not proceed to the coming summer and winter trials, which will be followed by the creation of a shortlist, and then more negotiations. Indan sources still see at least 2 more years before an actual purchase contract is inked. Agence France Presse | Calcutta Telegraph | The Hindu | Times of India | Reuters | Thaindian News | StrategyPage, include order history for Rafales to date.

March 10/09: Aviation Weeks AESA Radars Are A Highlight of Aero-India offers a look at various contenders radar choices.

America has an AESA technology lead, so its offerings are the most stable and mature. The F-16IN had the most choices. Ratheons RACR and Northrop Grummans SABR are both designed as drop-in AESA radars for the F-16, but Lockheed Martin chose Northrop Grummans AN/APG-80, which is already installed in the UAEs F-16E/F Block 60s and has a 100% in-service record over 4 years. The other American contender, Boeings F/A-18 E/F Block 2, will use its standard AN/APG-79 AESA radar.

Dassaults Rafale will use Thales new RBE2-AA, but its acquisition of a large shareholding in Thales means Saabs JAS-39NG will not use an RBE2-AA front end as planned. Saab has a number of alternative AESA options, from Raytheons RACR to an enlarged version of Selex Galileos Vixen, but the uncertainty raises its risk profile in a number of ways.

Eurofighter reportedly had the most interesting but least mature proposals, involving AESA arrays built into other areas of the plane. Eurofighter GmbH is working on the CAESAR AESA radar, but hat is in early development. Accordingly, it touts its existing mechanically-scanned Selex Galileo ECR-90 Captor over in-service AESA radars. EADS Military Air Systems SVP of engineering Peter Gutsmiedl was reportedly talking about the option of adding small AESA side arrays, an azimuth gimbal, or even a canted AESA swashplate fitted to a rotating mount, inside a canted antenna. These embedded radar options would allow the benefits of AESA, but with a much wider scan radius that could radically change the engagement cone for radar-guided air-air missiles. If they are built, that is, and successfully tested.

February 2009: Defense Update reports that Saabs Gripen is prominent by its absence at Aero India 2009. The single Gripen NG prototype is reportedly booked with flight testing activities, and cost cutting measures at Saab ran afoul of the expense involved in flying the plane to India.

Feb 10/09: Saab and TATA Consultancy Services (TCS) partnered Aeronaoutical Design and Development Centre (ADDC) has been awarded its first contract by Saab to participate in the aerostructural design and development for Gripen NG. Gripen International.

Jan 17/09: Indian Air Force chief Air Chief Marshal Fali Homi Major reveals that the IAF will conduct a fly-off of the 6 MMRCA contenders some time in April-May 2009.

Rumors have been started that Saabs JAS-39 Gripen might be left out of these field trials as a result of the IAFs Technical Evaluation Committee report, which is said to have been submitted to the Indian ministry of defense in mid-November 2008. That report has to be approved by the ministry before the field trials can begin. Those claims regarding the Gripens relative capabilities are difficult to reconcile with the roster of competitors. Meanwhile, Gripen Internationals India director Eddy de la Motte says:

We firmly believe the report does not have any basis and the news is incorrect. Gripen meets or exceeds every operational requirement raised by the IAF in all roles  air-to-air fighter, [beyond visual range/within visual range], air-to-surface land and sea, and reconnaissance.

See: India Defence re: trials | India Defence re: Gripen.
JAS-39IN concept
JAS-39IN
(click to view full)

Dec 8/08: Dassault Aviation announces agreements with Tata Technologies subsidiary INCAT [DID note: not the Australian naval firm] for Engineering Services Outsourcing. Under the terms of the MoU, INCAT will provide Dassault Aviation with Engineering Services in a number of critical domains, in support of the Indian Air Force MMRCA program under its industrial offset requirements.

The services would use INCATs Global Delivery model, delivered largely from the recently-established INCAT HAL Aerostructures Limited (IHAL) dedicated aerospace engineering services centre joint venture in Bangalore, India. It would be backed up by INCATs delivery teams in France and the USA.

Nov 6/08: India Defence reays concerns from Dassault Aviations senior vice president for military sales J.P.H.P. Chabriol. After observing that the Rafale, F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and Eurofighter constitute one tier of price and capabilities, and the F-16, JAS-39 Gripen, and MiG-35 constitute another, he adds that:

The IAFs RFP (request for proposal), in the first analysis, in terms of performance, is not extremely demanding. We dont want a situation where the other three aircraft are compliant with the RFP but we lose out on the price differential. The IAF has to decide whether it wants a heavy aircraft or a light aircraft. Quite obviously, there would be a price differential if a single or a twin-engine jet is chosen. If India takes the L-1 (lowest tender) route this would be unfair because we have a good product but this quality comes at a price.

It shoud be remembered that Dassault withdrew its own Mirage 2000 lightweight fighter from the MMRCA competition before the RFP was finalized. Chabriol reportedly added that Dassault had made an unsolicited offer of 40 Rafales as well, presumably as an inducement toward a dual platform high-low MMRCA buy. India Defence.

Nov 5/08: domain-b reports that Frances government gas approved full technology transfer for the Rafale fighter, including the AESA radar currently under development for that platform. The decision could also have corollary benefits for Saabs Gripen, as Saab is currently engaged in a joint development arrangement with Thales around the RB2 for its JAS-39 Gripen NG.

Dassault Aviations senior vice president for military sales J.P.H.P. Chabriol added that Source code transfer would be included. This is a major step, as it would enable the IAF to program the radars itself without having to specify mission parameters to foreign manufacturers. Chabroil also pointed to the lack of American components in the Rafale, which generates concern in some Indian quarters despite sbstantially improved relations with Washington:

The Gripen is powered by a US engine and has other US components too. Similar is the case with the Eurofighter, which has quite a few American parts. So, they would have to first seek the US governments approval. In the case of the F-18, approval would have to be sought not only of the government but also of parliament [US Congress]. This legislative approval is not an issue in our case.

Oct 7/08: A domain-b report quotes Alexei Fyodorov, chief of Russias United Aircraft Corporation (UAC). Fyodorov says what hes expected to say, then adds an interesting allegation:

The competition is very tough, but we have several trump cards  the MiG-35s superb performance characteristics and the fact that Russia and India share a long-standing partnership in strategic and political cooperation. So far, none of the participants has met the demands of the tender put forward by the Indian air force.

Sept 10/08: Saab announces a letter of intent with Tata Consultancy Services Limited (TCS), regarding establishment of an Aeronautical Design and Development Centre (ADDC) in India. The centre is not aimed at any particular program but will explore market opportunities in areas such as aero structures, aero systems, avionics and after market support for both military and civil aeronautical applications. Saab release.

Aug 4/08: The RFP responses are in, and are being evaluated. Indias Economic Times reports that 3 of the bidders have just submitted their companion industrial offset proposals so far: Boeing (F/A-18E/F), EADS (Eurofighter), and Lockheed Martin (F-16IN).

Boeing said it would meet its obligations through a line up that includes 37 Indian partners in the public and private sectors. Lockheed Martin noted that it had already established 4 F-16 production lines outside the USA. EADS mentioned a fully-fledged response, but did not otherwise go into much detail; like Boeing, cooperation with its civilian arm (Airbus) is a near-certain component of their offer.

Industrial offset esponses from Dassault (Rafale), Gripen International (JAS-39NG), and Rosoboronexport (MiG-35) are reportedly still pending. They are also due in August.

May 28/08: EADS is quoted as inviting India to become the 5th country and the first outside Europe to become part of the Eurofighter consortium. The industrial example of Spains participation is used. The Hindus report adds that EADS is also prepared to involve India in its supersonic jet trainer development program (the stalled Mako project, which needs an external partner to move forward) as well as unmanned aerial and undersea vehicles.

May 5/08: More details concerning the Boeing/Raytheon Super Hornet offer appear in Indias press. According to Boeings F-18 programme manager for India Mike Rietz, Boeings offset program involves a 4-phase effort.

* Phase 0 supplies 18 fully assembled Block II Super Hornets.
* Phase 1 and 2 will deliver 54 aircraft as partial assemblies , and would begin within 54 months of the contracts start date.
* Phase 1 supplies 1,800 parts and 300 tools for assembly by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. in India.
* Phase 2 supplies HAL with 17,000 parts and over 1,000 tools for assembly.
* The final 54 aircraft of Phase 3 would have the entire range of the airframes 30,000 parts built in India, with the last aircraft delivered by 2020.

With respect to radar technology transfer, Raytheons Dave Goold states the obvious when he says that Our response has been fully compliant with the IAF request for proposal (RFP). However, the extent of technology transfer would be dependent on the permission we receive from the US government. The issue is under discussion. If technology transfer is limited by the government, this could result in AN/APG-79 radars being supported in India but manufactured entirely in the USA. The question is whether that would disqualify the Boeing bid outright, or force a shift back to earlier APG-73 radars. The extent of radar technology transfer is reportedly set at 60% in Indias RFP. News Post India report.

April 28/08: MMRCA bids due. Gripen International delivers its MMRCA bid to Indias Ministry of Defence. The JAS-39IN is based on the Gripen NG/ Gripen Demo, and includes an AESA radar and an IRST (InfraRed Scan and Track) system, a Transfer of Technology (ToT) program, a life-time logistics support solution sourced from Indian suppliers with support from Saab and its partners, and full industrial offset cooperation. Gripen International release.

Eddy de la Motte, Gripen Internationals India Campaign Director:

Gripen IN will provide India with a capability that offers complete independence of weapon supply. We will do this by transferring all necessary technologies to enable Indian industry and the Air Force to build, operate and modify Gripen to meet all indigenous requirements over time.

It is presumed that other manufacturers bids were also submitted by the deadline.

April 24/08: Boeing delivers a 7,000-page proposal offering its advanced F/A-18E/F Super Hornet to the Indian Air Force, and The U.S. Embassy in New Delhi will formally hand it over to Indian Ministry of Defense. The F/A-18IN includes Raytheons APG-79 Active Electronically Scanned Array radar, and Boeing is also touting the claim that the fighter wont need a scheduled visit to a maintenance depot until it has clocked a minimum of 6,000 hours of flying time, and even well beyond that. Delivery of the first F/A-18IN Super Hornets can begin approximately 36 months after contract award.

Over the past 36 months, Boeing IDS has signed long-term partnership agreements with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, Tata Industries, and Larson and Toubro. Boeings release announces that: If the F/A-18IN Super Hornet is selected, these companies and others are expected to play a significant role as Boeing transfers some production and assembly to India.

Feb 26/08: The Indian government has extended the date of submission for technical and commercial bids for the MMRCA program from March 3/08 to April 28/08, while the deadline for offset bids has been extended from May until August 2008. Defense News.

Feb 25/08: Securing over $5 billion (50% of $10+ billion) in industrial offsets is a difficult task, if a country has almost no private sector defense firms to speak of. Thats Indias problen, and it extends beyond MMRCA to other major buys. In order to deal with that problem, India is borrowing a page from its silicon entrepreneurs.

The Mumbai based India Rizing Fund is on the look out for Small and Medium Enterprises engaged in defence equipment related production, which it plans to back with up to $300 million: an initial fund of $100-140 million equivalent, with the potential to add another $300 million equivalent. The time horizon is 10-14 years, and susequent Aero India 2009 interviews indicate a desite for 15-30 active companies in the portfolio receiving capital, management assistance, and other Venture Capital type support. Silicon India.

Dec 6/07: India MoD release. Defence Minister Shri AK Antony in a written reply to Shri Vijay J Darda and Smt. Shobhana Bhartia in Rajya Sabha:

The Ministry of Defence has received no offer from the United States for transfer of high technology weaponry including its 5th-generation joint Strike Fighter F-35.

There have been reports of a Lockheed Martin MMRCA offer mixing F-16s early and F-35s later, but this is one of those seems to say more than it does statements. It is strictly true, as any offers would have come from US manufacturers. Formal export approvals and offers from the United States would follow the standard DSCA announcement + 30 days process, once the Indian government had picked a winner.

Oct 10/07: Janes Defence Weekly quotes analysts predicting a six-month delay in the procurement, and adds that some Western bidders believe they are being negatively affected by the myriad of conditions in the RFP:

Deba R Mohanty, a senior fellow in security studies at the New Delhi-based Observer Research Foundation  who reviewed a copy of the RfP shortly after it was issued to the six contenders  told Janes in early October that the complexity of the RfP document is the main reason why the deadline is likely to be delayed a further six months until September 2008.

Aug 30/07: Reuters reports that the MMRCAs 50% industrial offset requirements could be a huge challenge for bidding companies:

I think theres a lot of concern in industry... said retired Lt. Gen. Jeffey Kohler, who stepped down on Wednesday as chief of the U.S. Defense Security Cooperation Agency. Establishing a process for proper crediting of the newly created business with the Indian defense ministry and integrating new production would be a big challenge, he said in a telephone interview with Reuters. In addition, Kohler said there were questions about whether companies such as Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd, which would be a primary beneficiary, could absorb all the new opportunities to be sent its way.

If industrial offsets prove to be a problem, this would improve the prospects for RSK-MiG (MiG-35), who already has co-production arrangements in India, and for Boeing (F/A-18), EADS (Euofighter) and Saab (JAS-39 Gripen), who can offer civilian industrial offsets in the airliner and automotive sectors.
AIR_F-16I_Schema.jpg
Israels F-16I
(click to view full)

Aug 28/07: Indias MoD finally releases the MRCA request for proposal. See coverage above, and also Economic Times of India | The Hindu | Hindustan Times | India Defence | Bloomberg. Some reports also mention an option for an additional 64 aircraft: Business Standard | Press Times of India news service | Flight International | Domain-B Aviation & Aerospace | Saab Group release.

Aug 21/07: Russia showcases its MiG-29K carrier-based fighter specially developed for the Indian Navy at the 8th international aerospace show MAKS-2007. The MiG-29K is equipped with modified Sea Wasp engines providing greater thrust in hot and humid tropical climate of the Indian Ocean. The Economic Times report adds that Eying the USD 9 billion contract for the delivery of 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) to the Indian Air Force, Russias MiG Corporation has also fielded its favourite MiG-35 and MiG-29OVT with thrust vectoring engines.

July 2/07: Gripen International continues to tout its aircraft for Indias MRCA competition. India Defence reports that the firm has gone one step farther than the July 2006 promise to have all airframe production take place in India. The firm stresses that the aircraft would be next-generation Gripen Demo aircraft, and adds that they were willing to provide all the know-how for India to carry out modifications according to its needs. This is a very high level of technology transfer, and resembles the benchmark adopted by the partner nations in the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter consortium.

Indias government is still finalizing ground rules for the MRCA competition.

May 15/07: India Defence analysis  Air Force MRCA Deal: Avionics, Weapons Packages Could Tilt Balance. The F-16I is listed as a contender, and Elbit avionics may end up installed in whichever aircraft wins.

Jan 23/07: India Defences headline says it all: MiG-35: Top Candidate for Air Force MRCA Deal. But perhaps not the only winner

Nov 6/06: AESA for MiG-35s? Janes International Defence Review reports that Phazotron-NIIR in Moscow, Russia is completing 2 prototypes of the Zhuk-MAE active electronically scanned radar. Theyre hoping to offer it with the MiG-29OVT (MiG-35) fighters being tendered by Russia. RSK MiG required a first flight with the experimental Zhuk-MAE radar during the first half of November 2006, in order to meet its goal of demonstrating it at the February Aero India 2007 exhibition in Bangalore, India.

Oct 11/06: DID publishes India Looks to Order 40 More Mirage 2000s, Upgrade Other Aircraft. The Mirages are not a done deal yet  and remain undone as of April 2010.

Oct 3/06: India may fast track MRCA deal. According to this report, recent crashes and uncertainty over the Tejas light fighter are upping the pressure, and the RFQ may be accelerated. Compared to what, one wonders?

Sept 6/06: Indias HAL will produce R-33 engines for the MiG-29 under license, in a $275 million deal. DID explains the deal, and why it probably improves the MiGs chances even though the MiG-29OVT/MiG-35 uses the RD-133 thrust vectoring engine.

July 19/06: Saab pledges to conduct all production in India if it wins, and cites its record of successfully meeting industrial offset provisions.

July 17/06: Indian pilots preparing to test-fly the F/A-18 Super Hornet.

June 14/06: Defense News says that Lockheed may offer India Israels F-16I Sufa (Storm) as its MRCA entry. This unusual because the F-16Is have many of their avionics and electronics replaced with Israeli technology.

India already uses a lot of Israeli electronics in its upgraded Russian aircraft, and the move would create commonality while leveraging a combat-proven design with extra strike capability. Still, Defence News notes that if Lockheed does offer the F-16I to India, it would be the first time an extensively modified US fighter containing non-US-made avionics, weaponry and major sub-systems had been offered at the front end of an international competition, without the customer explicitly requesting it (as Chile and Singapore did for Israeli avionics et. al. in their F-16s).

Footnotes

1 STOBAR = Short Take-Off But Assisted Recovery. Means it has no catapult and so uses a ski jump in the front, but uses arrestor wires to catch returning aircraft because it flies conventional aircraft rather than STOVL (Short Take-Off, Vertical Landing) planes like the F-35B or planes like the Sea Harriers. Sea Harriers are used on Indias existing Viraat (ex-Hermes) carrier, in a V/STOL (Vertical/Short Take-Off and Landing) arrangement.

Appendix A  MMRCA: The Naval Angle
F-18F Super Hornet landing
F/A-18F, carrier landing
(click to view full)

In February 2006, Janes Defense expressed the belief that India would increase its initial requirement from 126 multirole combat aircraft (MRCA) to around 180-190 aircraft, with the additional number being considered for acquisition by the Indian Navy. If true, it would have been an even bigger change than allowing medium-high end multi-role fighters into the competition. Reports from other outlets varied, however, and some had India standing firm at 126 aircraft.

The Indian MoD release only mentioned 126 aircraft, but other reports at the time add an option for another 64 aircraft on the same terms; if true, this would bring the potential deal up to 190 aircraft.

The RFP has not been made available to the public, but any naval compatibility requirements would be extremely significant because the current roster of competitors contains only 2 aircraft that qualify for future STOBAR1 carriers like the INS Vikramaditya (ex- Admiral Gorshkov) . Or the Vikrant Class (aka. Air Defence Ship), which will reportedly weigh in at 37,500 tonnes with a design that is heavily influenced by Italys Cavour Class. Those aircraft are the Boeing F/A-18 Super Hornet and Dassaults Rafale-M variant. Additionally, the MiG-35 is related to the MiG-29K naval variant slated for operation on INS Vikramaditya. If Russia wishes to invest in the idea, a carrier-capable MiG-35K may also be doable  if the extra weight of the new fuel tanks doesnt create a problem given the hard impacts of carrier landings.

Recall, however, Indias need to replace large numbers of aircraft. Given that both the Rafale and Super Hornet carry flyaway costs in the $55-70 million per plane range, and total program costs significantly higher than that, a naval requirement within the competition almost certainly means a split of the order between these high-expense platforms and a cheaper lightweight fighter contender.

That possibility may come to pass regardless of the Navys involvement, for example as a smaller F/A-18 E/F order and a large MiG-35 order in order. Time will tell.

Appendix B  Dassaults Move: Au Revoir, Mirage
Rafale-M on CVN Charles De Gaulle
Rafale-M carrier launch
(click to view full)

One pre-RFP surprise was the withdrawal of the Mirage 2000 from the competition, even though the aircraft has a good record in IAF service. According to India Press Trust, Chacks Edelstenne, CEO of Dassault Aviation, visited the Minister of State for Defence Rao Inderjit Singh and The Deputy Chief of the Air Staff Air Marshal AK Nangalia on February 21, 2006. He informed his audience that we are on the verge of closing the Mirage fighter assembly line and want to offer India a quantum jump in technology Though India has not not floated the Request for Proposals (RFP), we have conveyed to India to supply 40 Rafale multi-mission fighters in single source deal.

In a related move, French engine maker Snecma, which is also bidding for DRDOs joint collaboration project on the Tejas LCAs Kaveri engines, has reportedly offered to mount Indian-made Kaveri engines in Rafale fighters. The demise of the Kaveri engine project removed that option, but Snecma has been selected as a joint development partner for a successor engine that could offer the same sort of dual platform benefit. As of November 2008, however, no contract has been signed.

Media reports note that Indias decision-making speed may have had something to do with the Dassault switch, as company sources claimed that it would take at least 3-4 years for a contract to actually be signed with India. Given the pace of the MRCA competition thus far, and Indias procurement history, that estimate may be conservative. The word is that the French government thought that it would be too expensive to keep the Mirage production line running during that period, without additional export prospects.
Mirage_2000-5
Mirage 2000v5
(click to view full)

Dassault has reportedly assured India that its extensive Mirage repair and servicing facilities set up by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited at Bangalore would require only limited modification to accommodate the Rafale, given its commonalities with the Mirage 2000s.

Dassault may be completely up-front about the reasons behind this choice. It may also have decided that the introduction of the F/A-18 Super Hornet, MiG-35, and changing requirements in the RFP make the Mirage a loser anyway, while boosting the Rafales chance of securing an export order that would be critical to its long-term future.

Whatever the reasons, the withdrawal of the Mirage 2000 from the competition was official and final. The official RFP announcement specifically mentions Dassaults Rafale instead.

Ironicaly, in late 2008, Dassault personnel were quoted in the press, worrying that the MMRCAs medium weight set of contenders would be uncompetitive because of the price differential vs. lighter competitors like the F-16, JAS-39 Gripen, and MiG-29OVT. Had the Mirage 2000 remained in the competition, it would also have been placed in the lightweight category.

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## Break the Silence

,Lengthy but gud for knowledge!!

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## Break the Silence

@ rajgyonar,


Bhai, itna toh maine kabhi apne exams mein bhi nahi padha...


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## sudhir007

Break the Silence said:


> @ rajgyonar,
> 
> 
> Bhai, itna toh maine kabhi apne exams mein bhi nahi padha...


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## Dark Angel

*Humble request Please dont quote the same for a silly smilie please *


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## sancho

@ rajgoynar

Thx for the infos, but a little long. 

Can you add the link to the source?


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## Break the Silence

Dark Angel said:


> *Humble request Please dont quote the same for a silly smilie please *



Post edited !!


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## rajgoynar

sancho said:


> @ rajgoynar
> 
> Thx for the infos, but a little long.
> 
> Can you add the link to the source?






yes brother why not

actually ye accha tha isliye post kiya 



India&#8217;s M-MRCA Fighter Competition


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## SpArK

*Eurofighter gets good vibes on MMRCA*

By Saurabh Joshi

The first spurts of information on the results of the trials conducted by the Indian Air Force (IAF) for its 126 Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) tender are starting to trickle out.

A confident Bernhard Gerwart, Chief Executive Officer (CEO) of Military Air Systems at EADS Defence & Security, mingled with reporters in an informal chat with reporters in New Delhi on Tuesday and told them, &#8220;I believe we are compliant with all the requests that they have made. Yesterday, I had some meetings with representatives of the IAF and the MoD (Ministry of Defense) and, personally, I left with the impression that we had done well in the flight trials.&#8221;

But Herr Gerwert did offer a caveat, saying, &#8220;Mind you it&#8217;s just a feeling,&#8221; while pointing out the IAF had made no official statement to him.

At any rate he confirmed separately to StratPost, he would be sleeping easier after getting these vibes. While this is hardly definitive confirmation of the Eurofighter Typhoon having performed well in the trials from the perspective of the IAF, it is perhaps indicative of the feedback given by the IAF to representatives of the company.

And while Gerwert didn&#8217;t know if the IAF would come up with a short list or a &#8216;long list&#8217;, the issue of a down select remains open to question. It remains unclear whether any possible shortlist issued by the IAF would merely be an indication of preference or would actually result in the elimination of any of the contestants.

German Ambassador to India, Thomas Matussek, too, weighed in. &#8220;We have to see this in the geo-strategic context. Your security is our security,&#8221; he said. Did he think that if the MMRCA comes down to being a political decision, the four-European nations backing EADS would have the political capital to compete with the US? &#8220;The simple answer is &#8216;yes&#8217;. We&#8217;re easily on the same par as the United States,&#8221; he said.

The IAF is expected to submit its report on its evaluation of the six aircraft imminently, and industry watchers have been actively trying to get a sense of how it will play out. With the IAF enforcing a robust lockdown on any seepage of information so long as the report remains in their domain, defense journalists have been reduced to speculation on the play-out of the tender process.

Not surprisingly, reporters are straining their eyes trying to read between the lines of the statements issued by personalities such as Herr Gerwert and cryptic comments of IAF officers in private conversation, in the absence of any official indications.

There are some who argue that it would be in the interest of the IAF to indicate the results of the trials and its preferences, to make sure their views are not deviated from when the matter is laid before the Ministry of Defense. There are others who think this would be irrelevant, anticipating the IAF to indicate no clear preference one way or the other. Boeing&#8217;s F/A-18 Super Hornet, Lockheed Martin&#8217;s F-16, Saab&#8217;s Gripen IN, Dassault&#8217;s Rafale and the MiG-35 are the other aircraft competing in the tender.

But IAF officials admit to being eminently aware of the possibility of the conclusions of the report becoming public, once it is submitted to the ministry. And all concerned agree, some interesting times lie ahead, when that happens.


Blog: Eurofighter gets good vibes on MMRCA | StratPost


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## SpArK

*MMRCA: The Political Angle*


All the latest news reports suggest that IAF evaluation on the 6 MMRCA competitor will be out soon with the deal being signed within a year after that. One competitor out 4 short listed fighters will be selected for the contract. Now we all know that ultimately the decision will be taken with politics in mind. PM Manmohan Singh himself once said in pretext to MMRCA that the winner of the contract will be the one who's country will have maximum to offer. This really does puts out Gripen's chances to win the contract considering the fact that Sweden doesn't have anything to offer to India apart from the fighter itself.
The Congress Party of India wants India to be a permanent member of UNSC which will give it a serious advantage over its political rivals in the country. All members of UNSC support India for this except the USA and China. Communist China with its egoistic ambition will never support India. Russia has been a long standing supporter of India in all matters and India definitely wants to hold on to this and hence there was report which suggested that India will try to please Russia but its unlikely to give a order of 126 fighter jets to Russia's MiG-35. But it will buy a smaller number (50-60) of these jets to maintain IAF's numbers and make Russia happy. Same goes with France which India has some level of dislike for its military supplies to Pakistan. French competitor, the Rafael is closely matched with American F/A-18SH but it is more expensive than it. France it likely to receive $2.5 Billion* contract to upgrade IAF's Mirage-2000's, this offer was selected over Israel's cheaper offer. India also used this offer to end Pakistan's efforts to acquire similar systems from France for its JF-17 fighter aircraft.
The other aircraft along with Sweden's Gripen that has very less political attraction is Europe's Eurofighter Typhoon. Its extremely expensive and its sponsor countries are no longer inclined to buy it which mean that it will remain very expensive. Plus UK its primary backer will not withdraw its support for UNSC seat even if its Typhoon is not selected. That now leave just the F-16IN and F/A-18 SH both of which are of American origin. USA has long not supported India for the permanent seat but the relations are improving everyday. US sees India as a important ally in afghn-pakis situation and against the Chinese and so does India. Multiple contracts were given to USA and USA was the one which got India into the NSG. American stance on the UNSC seat is also changing dramatically with positive comments from American diplomats and envoys. Hence India will try hard to please America by giving the contract to American competitors mostly Boeing's F/A-18 SH instead of the F-16 which is already in PAF's inventory. Hence I conclude that F/A-18SH is the strongest contender to win the contract.


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## gurjot

BENNY said:


> *MMRCA: The Political Angle*
> 
> 
> All the latest news reports suggest that IAF evaluation on the 6 MMRCA competitor will be out soon with the deal being signed within a year after that. One competitor out 4 short listed fighters will be selected for the contract. Now we all know that ultimately the decision will be taken with politics in mind. PM Manmohan Singh himself once said in pretext to MMRCA that the winner of the contract will be the one who's country will have maximum to offer. This really does puts out Gripen's chances to win the contract considering the fact that Sweden doesn't have anything to offer to India apart from the fighter itself.
> The Congress Party of India wants India to be a permanent member of UNSC which will give it a serious advantage over its political rivals in the country. All members of UNSC support India for this except the USA and China. Communist China with its egoistic ambition will never support India. Russia has been a long standing supporter of India in all matters and India definitely wants to hold on to this and hence there was report which suggested that India will try to please Russia but its unlikely to give a order of 126 fighter jets to Russia's MiG-35. But it will buy a smaller number (50-60) of these jets to maintain IAF's numbers and make Russia happy. Same goes with France which India has some level of dislike for its military supplies to Pakistan. French competitor, the Rafael is closely matched with American F/A-18SH but it is more expensive than it. France it likely to receive $2.5 Billion* contract to upgrade IAF's Mirage-2000's, this offer was selected over Israel's cheaper offer. India also used this offer to end Pakistan's efforts to acquire similar systems from France for its JF-17 fighter aircraft.
> The other aircraft along with Sweden's Gripen that has very less political attraction is Europe's Eurofighter Typhoon. Its extremely expensive and its sponsor countries are no longer inclined to buy it which mean that it will remain very expensive. Plus UK its primary backer will not withdraw its support for UNSC seat even if its Typhoon is not selected. That now leave just the F-16IN and F/A-18 SH both of which are of American origin. USA has long not supported India for the permanent seat but the relations are improving everyday. US sees India as a important ally in afghn-pakis situation and against the Chinese and so does India. Multiple contracts were given to USA and USA was the one which got India into the NSG. American stance on the UNSC seat is also changing dramatically with positive comments from American diplomats and envoys. Hence India will try hard to please America by giving the contract to American competitors mostly Boeing's F/A-18 SH instead of the F-16 which is already in PAF's inventory. Hence I conclude that F/A-18SH is the strongest contender to win the contract.



india wants u.s shield,f-18 is the manmohan's choice


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## SpArK

LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence: TIMES NOW: IAF Recommends Rafale & Eurofighter For MMRCA!


TIMES NOW: IAF Recommends Rafale & Eurofighter For MMRCA!"]TIMES NOW: IAF Recommends Rafale & Eurofighter For MMRCA


Just caught this on TimesNOW and boy has it already kicked up a storm! The IAF isn't officially commenting on this, since they don't do that. If this is correct, it matches with Scenario-4 of the possibilities I posted a few days ago. The war of the Eurocanards! Many believe (and have expressed as much here on the blog) that a face-off between the Rafale and Typhoon would be the most appropriate competition if the IAF was looking for truly modern fourth-generation fighter jets, designed and built fresh with forward-looking possibilities, true license-build possibilities. If this report is true, the IAF has basically, with one fell swoop, dismissed the Gripen NG, MiG-35, and both the American teens -- the F-16 Block 60 and F/A-18/E/F -- from the world's most lucrative fighter competition in recent memory. Or it has indicated that it would prefer these two aircraft over the others (which one over the other, though, is tantalizingly not mentioned). Assuming any of this is true, this is hardly the end. Will the government dutifully open commercial bids and pick between the two? Have the others actually been eliminated or simply been pushed down the preference order of merit? Can the government make a political decision between the Rafale and Typhoon? What was all that American pressure all about? Will the government disregard the IAF trials? Will it ask for more trials? Will it go by the book? Will the MMRCA be the Rafale's blistering account opener? Stay tuned. I'm as curious as you are, and will be tracking developments very closely. Read my MMRCA series post a year ago on the Typhoon and Rafale.


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## Markus

BENNY said:


> LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence: TIMES NOW: IAF Recommends Rafale & Eurofighter For MMRCA!
> 
> 
> TIMES NOW: IAF Recommends Rafale & Eurofighter For MMRCA!"]TIMES NOW: IAF Recommends Rafale & Eurofighter For MMRCA
> 
> 
> Just caught this on TimesNOW and boy has it already kicked up a storm! The IAF isn't officially commenting on this, since they don't do that. If this is correct, it matches with Scenario-4 of the possibilities I posted a few days ago. The war of the Eurocanards! Many believe (and have expressed as much here on the blog) that a face-off between the Rafale and Typhoon would be the most appropriate competition if the IAF was looking for truly modern fourth-generation fighter jets, designed and built fresh with forward-looking possibilities, true license-build possibilities. If this report is true, the IAF has basically, with one fell swoop, dismissed the Gripen NG, MiG-35, and both the American teens -- the F-16 Block 60 and F/A-18/E/F -- from the world's most lucrative fighter competition in recent memory. Or it has indicated that it would prefer these two aircraft over the others (which one over the other, though, is tantalizingly not mentioned). Assuming any of this is true, this is hardly the end. Will the government dutifully open commercial bids and pick between the two? Have the others actually been eliminated or simply been pushed down the preference order of merit? Can the government make a political decision between the Rafale and Typhoon? What was all that American pressure all about? Will the government disregard the IAF trials? Will it ask for more trials? Will it go by the book? Will the MMRCA be the Rafale's blistering account opener? Stay tuned. I'm as curious as you are, and will be tracking developments very closely. Read my MMRCA series post a year ago on the Typhoon and Rafale.



Man! This is getting better and better.

Time to show the door to the Americans!


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## Indian-Devil

I donot think it will be good choice to go with Americans, so many restrictions and that too for a fighter jet is not a good decision. Uncle Sam always shows a lollypop for deal and later put it back in his pocket. If India select SH also for MRCA then again so many contract signing for its technologies and no source codes also for radar and core components.
Better choice could be Rafael or Eurofighter, which suits best IAF requirements and no issues in ToT also. But seeing at Congress goverment attitude things looks in favourable in US side.


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## flanker143

i think most the members (including me) who r in favor of choosing rafale over eft is bcoz the former has better air to ground capabilities ........

is it underestimated or (currently) immature.... 

i request the members to shed some light on *air to ground* capabilities of eurofighter typhoon .....

thanks in advance.....


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## Archie

flanker143 said:


> i think most the members (including me) who r in favor of choosing rafale over eft is bcoz the former has better air to ground capabilities ........
> 
> is it underestimated or (currently) immature....
> 
> i request the members to shed some light on *air to ground* capabilities of eurofighter typhoon .....
> 
> thanks in advance.....



Its from Wiki but i hope it clarify some of your doubts regarding performance of Eurofighter . How ever according to me Eurofighter is still primarily an airsuperiority fighter Probably second only to F-22 Raptor

*Air-to-ground capabilities*

A Royal Air Force Eurofighter Typhoon FGR4 at Nellis AFB in Nevada, USAThe Typhoon is a multi-role fighter with maturing air-to-ground capabilities. Earlier than scheduled, the RAF integrated the air to ground capability, based on the Rafael[137]/Ultra Electronics Litening III laser designator [138] and the Enhanced Paveway II/III laser guided bomb[139] under the "Austere" programme.[140] A more comprehensive air-to-ground attack capability including Paveway IV, EGBU-16 bombs and a higher degree of automation will be achieved for all partner nations with the Phase 1 Enhancements currently in development.[141]

The absence of such a capability is believed to have been a factor in the type's rejection from Singapore's fighter competition in 2005. At the time it was claimed that Singapore was concerned about the delivery timescale and the ability of the Eurofighter partner nations to fund the current capability packages.[142] With the planned Phase 2 Enhancements Eurofighter GmbH hopes to increase the appeal of Typhoon to possible export customers and to make the aircraft more useful to partner air forces.[141]

*Radar signature reduction features*
Although not designated a stealth fighter, measures were taken to reduce the Typhoon's radar cross section (RCS), especially from the frontal aspect.[143][144] An example of these measures is that the Typhoon has jet inlets that conceal the front of the jet engine (a strong radar target) from radar. Many important potential radar targets, such as the wing, canard and fin leading edges, are highly swept, so will reflect radar energy well away from the front sector.[145] Some external weapons are mounted semi-recessed into the aircraft, partially shielding these missiles from incoming radar waves.[143] In addition radar absorbent materials (RAM) developed primarily by EADS/DASA coat many of the most significant reflectors, e.g. the wing leading edges, the intake edges and interior, the rudder surrounds, strakes, etc.[143][146] The Typhoon does not use internal storage of weapons. External mounting points are used instead, which increases its radar cross section but allows for more and larger stores.[147] The Eurofighter operates automatic Emission Controls (EMCON) to reduce the Electro-Magnetic emissions of the current mechanically scanned Radar.[143] The Captor-M was the first NATO-Radar with three rather than two working channels, one intended for classification of jammer and for jamming suppression.[148] The German BW-Plan 2009 indicates that Germany will equip/retrofit the Luftwaffe's Eurofighters with the AESA Captor-E from 2012.[149] The conversion to AESA will give the Eurofighter a Low Probability of Intercept Radar with much better jam resistance.[150][151] These include an innovative design with a gimbal to meet RAF requirements for a wider scan field than a fixed AESA.[152] The coverage of an fixed AESA is limited to 120 degree in azimuth and elevation.[153]

According to the RAF, the Eurofighter's RCS is better than RAF requirements. Comments from BAE Systems suggest the radar return is around one quarter of that of the Tornado it replaces.[154] *The Eurofighter is thought to have an RCS of less than one square metre in a clean configuration by author Doug Richardson, although no official value is available.[145] This compares with the estimated RCS of the Rafale of 2 square metres,[155] the 10 square metres of the Su-30MKI,[156] the 1 square metre of the Su-35BM[157] and the American F-117 of 0.025 square metres.*[155] The manufacturers have carried out tests on the early prototypes to optimize the low observability characteristics of the aircraft from the early 1990s. Testing at BAE's Warton facility on the DA4 prototype measured the RCS of the aircraft and investigated the effects of a variety of RAM coatings. Another measure to reduce the likelihood of discovery is the use of passive sensors, which minimises the radiation of treacherous electronic emissions. While canards generally have poor stealth characteristics,[158] the flight control system is designed to minimise the RCS in flight, maintaining the elevon trim and canards at an angle to minimise RCS.[159][160]
Eurofighter Typhoon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## sancho

flanker143 said:


> i think most the members (including me) who r in favor of choosing rafale over eft is bcoz the former has better air to ground capabilities ........
> 
> is it underestimated or (currently) immature....
> 
> i request the members to shed some light on *air to ground* capabilities of eurofighter typhoon .....
> 
> thanks in advance.....



So far the British EFs are the most advanced with best A2G capabilities. They have integrated full EWS capabilities, the litening pod and Paveway 2/3 LGB, Paveway 4 are in testing stage at the moment. 

On the other side, the Litening pod can only carried on the centerline station so far, which occupies 1 heavy station that normally is used for fuel tanks. This means in strike role with LGBs, the range is limited, because of the targeting pod!

The other big disadvantage at the moment is, that not a single A2G missile was integrated yet. No Brimstone (anti tank), no ALARM/HARM (anti radiation), no Peguin/Harpoon (anti ship) and no stand off, or cruise missile (Hope/Hosbo/Taurus/Storm Shadow).
The competition is for medium class multi role fighters, but the EF so far, sadly can do only A2A and light strikes in closer distances and as long as the partner countries don't decide about the Tranche 3A, we can't say what exaclty will be integrated for the fighters that will be available for us.

A recent aviation week report says, that the AESA is planed (if anything goes without delays) for 2015, but mainly with A2A modes and A2G modes for such A2G missiles possibly only by 2016/17 with the tranche 3B. That alone is bad news for the MMRCA, because it is way too late for the IAF requirements, but more difficult is, that most of the partner countries could cancell their orders for tranche 3B fighters. We must keep in mind that UK and Italy will get F35 in the strike role too and they simply don't have the need to pay more money in the integration of further A2G capabilities of the EF.

On paper, or on pics the EF looks more than great and was always one of my favourit fighters (in general, not for MMRCA), but the member development is very slow and the need and financial situation of the partner countries, makes further developments difficult. A fully developed EF would be a hell of a fighter, but it's simply way too late!

Here a pic of the EF displayed at AI 09, with weapons that are on offer, but on offer doesn't mean operational, or integrated anytime soon:







Iris-T SR AAM - integrated and operational
Aim 120 C5 MR AAM - integrated and operational
Paveway 4 LGB - in testing and integration stage
Meteor LR AAM - under development, but ordered for EF to replace AIM 120
Brimstone ATGM - not integrated, or ordered
Taurus CM - not integrated, or ordered
Storm Shadow CM - not integrated, or ordered

Not on the pic, but offered in Farnborough

Hope/Hosbo SOM - not integrated, or ordered


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## Iggy

can anyone tell me what is that thing i am pointing in the picture ?




[/URL] Uploaded with ImageShack.us[/IMG]


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## sancho

seiko said:


> can anyone tell me what is that thing i am pointing in the picture ?
> 
> *Taurus cruise missile:*
> 
> Taurus KEPD 350 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Reactions: Like Like:
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## CONNAN

LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence: TIMES NOW: IAF Recommends Rafale & Eurofighter For MMRCA!

Just caught this on TimesNOW and boy has it already kicked up a storm! The IAF isn't officially commenting on this, since they don't do that. If this is correct, it matches with Scenario-4 of the possibilities I posted a few days ago. The war of the Eurocanards! Many believe (and have expressed as much here on the blog) that a face-off between the Rafale and Typhoon would be the most appropriate competition if the IAF was looking for truly modern fourth-generation fighter jets, designed and built fresh with forward-looking possibilities, true license-build possibilities. If this report is true, the IAF has basically, with one fell swoop, dismissed the Gripen NG, MiG-35, and both the American teens -- the F-16 Block 60 and F/A-18/E/F -- from the world's most lucrative fighter competition in recent memory. Or it has indicated that it would prefer these two aircraft over the others (which one over the other, though, is tantalizingly not mentioned). Assuming any of this is true, this is hardly the end. Will the government dutifully open commercial bids and pick between the two? Have the others actually been eliminated or simply been pushed down the preference order of merit? Can the government make a political decision between the Rafale and Typhoon? What was all that American pressure all about? Will the government disregard the IAF trials? Will it ask for more trials? Will it go by the book? Will the MMRCA be the Rafale's blistering account opener? Stay tuned. I'm as curious as you are, and will be tracking developments very closely. Read my MMRCA series post a year ago on the Typhoon and Rafale.

Assuming these two aircraft are the only ones moving to the next level, which do you think the government should choose and why? Let's see what everyone thinks. Vote below and post your comments.


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## anathema

ok..Mohotarama is out with her details...

Chindits: MMRCA Update : F-18 Has Underpowered Engine, No One 100% Compliant, Says Report, Vendors Revise Their Prices !!




> There was a reason for the delay of this report. Chindits is in possession of a RFP copy of the MMRCA. All information about individual aircraft, is based on answers provided by vendors through email about specific questions.
> 
> As the technical evaluation report of the world's largest defence deal &#8211; the medium multi-role combat role aircraft (MMRCA) gets completed by the Indian Air Force (IAF), before handing it to the Ministry of Defence (MoD), DNA has learnt from reliable sources, that there is a vast difference in the Air Staff Qualitative Requirement (ASQR) being fulfilled by the competitors, in engine requirements.
> 
> Of the 126, India will directly purchase 18 aircraft, of which 12 will be single-seater and six twin-seater aircraft. These aircraft will be located at three main operating bases and would be distributed among six independant flying squadrons, two per main operating base, with each squadron comprising 12 single-seat aircraft, while the remaining to be stored as reserves.
> 
> The six competitors are American Boeing F/A-18 Super Hornet IN, F-16IN Super Viper from the US Lockheed Martin, Gripen Next Generation (NG) from Sweden's Saab, European consortium EADS' Eurofighter Typhoon, French Rafale from Dassault Aviation and the Russian MiG-35.
> 
> According to the RFP, a copy of which is with DNA, the IAF states the following engine combat ASQRs:
> 
> &#8220;The MMRCA should have sea-level static thrust-to-weight ration of 1:1 or better with maximum afterburner, should be able to carry an external load of atleast 5000 kilograms (comprising air-to-air and air-to ground weapons) and fly for a minimum eight hours with air-to-air refueling, should be a 9G aircraft and talks of the maximum limit of a vertical or negative G the aircraft can pull and hold for more than 10 seconds with afterburners engaged.&#8221;
> 
> The thrust-to-weight ratio, is of critical importance, as a senior IAF official told DNA, "As the weight would only increase with the increase in armament and weapons onboard, therefore a powerful engine was required. Some have come close to the required parameters but some aircraft have shown disappointing results The aircraft should also have endurance for longer periods and the twin-seat trainer should be exactly like the single-seat fighter."
> 
> Price:
> 
> The MoD had extended the date for price quotation and asked the six competing global fighter aircraft manufacturers for the revised price for the aircraft as the original deadline for the commercial bids to be opened was April 2010, according to the tender, which would have had the original price if the bids were opened on time. But owing to delay caused by the field evaluation of all six aircraft, an extension of three months was given, and the vendors were asked to submit their fresh prices, whether they would go with the original quoted price or would quote a revised price, was to be conveyed to the MoD.
> 
> By the end of July all six aircraft giants in the fray have to inform the MoD, whether there is a revision in the price of their aircraft or the old price be considered.
> 
> A senior IAF (Indian Air Force) told DNA, &#8220;The commercial bids of only the short-listed vendors will be opened, but the fresh price as on date needs to be known. Since the trials have caused delay, so the April 2010 deadline could not be met,&#8221; adding that finally the deal would go upto around 18 billion dollars with infrastructure, training and other expenditure included.
> 
> Governments of the aircraft manaufacturers rooting for their product:
> 
> It may also be noted that Government representatives of the aircraft manufacturing countries participating in this deal have started pitching for their respective aircraft.
> 
> DNA has learnt that Vice Admiral Jeffrey A Wieringa, Director Defence Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) of the US, wrote to the MoD, that the global tender for the aircraft deal, be converted into a single vendor Hybrid FMS (foreign military sale) deal, suiting the US and one of its competing manufacturers be given the contract under it. FMS is a government-to-government agreement for a contract without an open tender, which makes it convenient for critical technologies to be transferred and also cuts out a lot of other hassles, thereby hastening up the process, but is expensive. The Hybrid FMS route is a special provision in the US government, given to a buyer country, interested in purchasing defence equipment from the US.
> 
> US Secretary of Defense, Robert Gates is believed to have written a similar letter in 2008, when the bids were submitted for the aircraft, to the MoD, to have an FMS agreement for the contract.
> 
> Letters from other Government representatives also have reached MoD, but South Block is understood to have turned down these requests, and is strictly following the Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP), with its transparency clause. All European governments are understood to be backing the Eurofighter Typhoon.
> 
> US Boeing's F/A-18 IN Super Hornet
> 
> Reliable sources have confirmed to DNA that the F/A-18 IN Super Hornet, has an underpowered engine, with both engines adding upto 180 KN (wet power) , and the thrust to weight ratio being less than 1, which doesn't meet the IAF ASQR, which should be more than one.
> 
> Said a senior IAF officer, &#8220;The .93 thrust to weight ratio of the Super Hornet speaks of the underpowered engines, plus the aircraft can only pull a maximum of 7.5 G, which is below the requirement which is 9G.&#8221;
> 
> According to company statement given to DNA by Boeing, "As required per India's Defence Procurement Procedure, compliance demonstrations for all MMRCA Air Staff Qualitative Requirements were conducted with Super Hornets during the Field Evaluation Trials. The ultimate decision lies with the Indian Air Force, however, the US Navy / Boeing Team are confident that the demonstrations conducted during FET confirmed compliance with all MMRCA ASQRs."
> 
> US Lockheed Martin's F-16IN Super Viper.
> 
> The single-engine F-16IN Super Viper's GE F110-GE-132A engine, produces up to 144 KN thrust and can pull 9 G and -3 vertical G, while engaging in combat manouvers. The aircraft has a thrust to weight ratio of 6.36:1 and, &#8220;Can fly for more than eight hours continuously with air-to-air refueling,&#8221; according to the response sent by the manufacturer to DNA. Calling it a completely new product, tailored to suit the IAF's ASQRs, Lockheed stated that the twin-seat version would have all the operational attributes of a single-seat variant inclusive of a radar, and can carry an external load of more than 5000 kgs (which includes weapons).
> 
> Swedish Saab's JAS 39 Gripen NG
> 
> Sweden's Gripen Next Generation (NG), has an engine with wet power of 97.8 KN, and is a 9G aircraft with 13G in emergency and -3 vertical or negative G.
> 
> In a response to DNA, Swedish Saab said that, &#8220;The aircraft has sea level static thrust to weight ratio in Indian Standard Atmosphere conditions as 1:1 with full missile load.&#8221;
> 
> Gripen NG can carry an external load of 7200 kg of air-to-air and air-to-ground weapons and other external stores and fly more than eight hours with air-to-air refueling, and the twin seater variant will have the same operational attributes as the single seater.
> 
> European EADS' Eurofighter Typhoon
> 
> The twin-engine multi-role fighter, in service in the airforces of Germany, UK Royal Airforce, Spain and Italy, the four countries engaged in manufacturing the aircraft, is yet to see combat, but has a wet power of both engines put together adding upto 180 KN thrust (20,000 lbs).
> 
> The Eurofighter Typhoon can pull +9 and -3 negative or vertical G, is able to carry an external load which of more than 7500 kg and can fly for more than eight hours with air-to-air refueling and the twin-seat will be similar to the single-seat version in operational attributes.
> 
> French Dassault Aviation's Rafale fighter aircraft.
> 
> The twin-engine Rafale, operational in the French airforce and the Navy, has at the moment, the Snecma M88-2 with a wet thrust of 176 KN (both engines). A next generation engine, with a thrust of 9000kg, is being tested, but its date of availability is unknown, even as Dassault claims it will take three years.
> 
> The aircraft can pull -3 to 9G (11G in emergency), sustainable with a pilot.
> 
> Sources told DNA about the Rafale's thrust to weight ratio, &#8220;This depends heavily on the fuel and weapon load, and it will be different for 25&#37;, 50% or 100% fuel load.&#8221; According to different sources, the ratio of the Rafale (thrust to weight) may vary from 1.13 to 1.27.
> 
> The Rafale can carry a maximum of an external load of 9500 kg and can fly for around 15 hours with refueling.
> 
> The major differences between the single-seat and the twin-seat Rafale B are of weight and lower inner fuel capacity. The Rafale B is heavier by 350kg and its lower inner fuel capacity, which is around 400 liters of less fuel. The remaining equipment are similar, including the radar RBE-2.
> 
> Russian MiG-35 (As of now just one aircraft has been produced, the twin-seat MiG-35D)
> 
> Called a derivative of the existing MiG-29 fighter, the MiG-35 still doesn't exist, and has just one aircraft flying, the twin-seat MiG-35D, which was unveiled in 2007 in Bangalore during Aero India.
> 
> With a thrust to weight ration being 1.03, the two engines provide a wet thrust of 176.6 KN. A 11G aircraft capable of a -3 vertical G, the MiG-35 twin-seat variant, the MiG-35D, has all the operational attributes of a single-seat fighter including the radar. The aircraft can fly more than eight hours ith refueling and can carry an external load of more than 5000 kgs.
> 
> Coming up next : What is causing a delay in this deal?


----------



## anathema

^^ as usual nothing interesting in the report ..except for super bug is incapable of pulling 9G .... I dont know if this is true or not.

Last i heard SH is capable of pulling more than 9G , but software restricts it to 9G....

At this point i feel that all the defence journos are keen to increase hits on their blogs .... Yellow journalism at its best !!!


----------



## sancho

anathema said:


> ^^ as usual nothing interesting in the report ..except for super bug is incapable of pulling 9G .... I dont know if this is true or not.
> 
> Last i heard SH is capable of pulling more than 9G , but software restricts it to 9G....
> 
> At this point i feel that all the defence journos are keen to increase hits on their blogs .... Yellow journalism at its best !!!



The interesting part of this report, are the requirements from the RFP, the rest are mainly infos of the vendors itself, not what the trial found out.
No, the F18SH can only pull less and the official Boeing site says that too:



> General Characteristics:
> 
> Field Landing Weight 50,600 lb (22,951 kg)
> Max takeoff weight 66,600 lb (30,209 kg)
> Speed: Mach 1.8
> Combat Ceiling 50,000
> *Design load factor 7.6g*



http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/military/fa18ef/docs/EF_overview.pdf


If Chindits is right and T/W of 1, or better and 9G are requirements, it will make it very difficult for the Super Hornet and with my own calculations, even the Gripen should not fullfil the T/W requirements (depending on which specs of Saab are really true).


----------



## StickyDrumGuy

Found some striking


----------



## StickyDrumGuy

at LDU Company out of

---------- Post added at 10:12 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:12 AM ----------

China with free shipping to

---------- Post added at 10:13 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:12 AM ----------

anywhere in the world. My friend


----------



## ARCHON

*How many engines for the MMRCA?​*Sunday, August 8, 2010
By Saurabh Joshi

How many engines for the MMRCA? | StratPost

Anytime now, the Indian Air Force (IAF) should be submitting its report on the technical evaluations of six aircraft for its 126 Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) tender, indicating its assessment and by extension, preferences, after which the Ministry of Defense (MoD) will open the commercial bids submitted by the six vendors and list them in terms of the best prices offered.

But in this contest, the IAF has to make a comparison of the performances of single-engine aircraft, the Gripen and the F-16, with twin-engine fighters, the MiG-35, F/A-18 Super Hornet, Rafale and Eurofighter Typhoon. Speculative noises over the past year have indicated it to be entirely possible for all these aircraft to make the cut as far as the parameters or Air Staff Qualitative Requirements (ASQRs) laid down by the IAF are concerned.

Indeed, the varied character of the six aircraft taking part in the competition, which also cleared the paper-evaluation of their respective technical abilities last year, indicates that possibly all six aircraft could match these parameters in different ways to, more or less, the same extent.

The IAF has also said over the past year, that no aircraft would get extra credit for exceeding the SQRs. From all accounts, the IAF has been comparing the aircraft with the parameters laid down in the SQRs and not with each other. In such a scenario, the IAF could end up having a difficult time distinctly marking their preferred aircraft from the six in the fray. Three possible scenarios could come up.

The IAF could indicate a preference for either only single-engine or twin-engine aircraft, but questions could be asked as to why the IAF made no prior indication of a preference for either type of aircraft. Or thirdly, the IAF could throw up a mix of both types, if not all the competitors, in its technical report. So if the IAF does clear both, single and twin-engine aircraft, in its report, the MoD could be faced with the task of finally comparing the technical merits of the contenders with respect to their cost.

How do you compare the cost and reliability of a single-engine aircraft with a twin-engine aircraft? It seems obvious that single-engine aircraft would be much cheaper to buy and maintain, especially in terms of life-cycle cost, and that the reliability of twin-engine aircraft would exceed those of single-engine aircraft.

And if the IAF gives no extra points for performance exceeding the ASQR parameters laid down, then a decision on selection could rest solely with the MoD judging the commercial bids, where single-engine fighters would have an edge in terms of pricing.

Or would they?

The Austrian decision on the purchase of fighter aircraft is an interesting study of how a unified measure of the cost of the two types of aircraft with respect to their performance can be quantified.

The Austrian Court of Auditors examined the award of a contract for the supply of 24 Eurofighter Typhoon aircraft to the Österreichische Luftstreitkräfte (Austrian Air Force) in 2004, which had been competing with the Swedish Gripen for the order. The court looked at the process their Austrian Ministry of Defense used to arrive at a cost and utility analysis of the two aircraft on the basis of a mathematical model.

The court scanned the process their MoD used for gauging the operational capabilities of the two aircraft  what the report refers to as the military benefits of an aircraft or what it means in a fight. Weightage was given to different criteria of performance (range, payload etc), which were tabulated and summed up out of a maximum cumulative weightage of 1000 points. The Eurofighter Typhoon scored a little higher in terms of the weightage given by the Austrian Air Force for performance with respect to their requirements.

The report says the auditors, evaluating the result of the Austrian Air Force and the MoD, found that weightage given to 35 performance criteria required adjustment, which resulted in a further shift of the cumulative weightage in favor of the Eurofighter Typhoon.

The relationship between the respective costs and the military benefits or operational performance of the two aircraft produced the cost benefit/utility analysis, which was a quantification of military benefits and what they cost. The cost benefit/utility analysis reflects the quantification of benefits with respect to their costs. The Austrian Air Force was looking for the maximum capability at the best price, or the best bidder.








*But the unit price for the Eurofighter Typhoon wasnt necessarily lower than that of the Gripen.* What the court validated was the judgment of the MoD that the offer for the Eurofighter Typhoon was more attractive, considering the payment model being offered for the performance criteria matched by the aircraft. While the Eurofighter *Typhoon offer was higher than that of Gripen if payment were made on delivery or over ten half-yearly installments, the cost and utility analysis of the Eurofighter Typhoon offer was a little less than Gripens quote, if payments were made in 18 half-yearly installments.
*


*Whats also interesting is that the offer made by the Eurofighter Typhoon consortium for 24 aircraft by payment on delivery wasnt all that much higher than the offer made by Gripen (the order was later reduced to 18, and then, 15 aircraft). This, in spite of the fact that the engine in a fighter is often considered to make up around one-third of the value of the aircraft.*

But at the same time Janes has reported a different scenario in the ongoing Romanian process for acquisition of 24 fighter aircraft, with Saab ready to offer 24 new Gripen aircraft at a cost of EUR 1 billion, against 24 second-hand Eurofighter Typhoon aircraft (and also, 24 second-hand F-16 aircraft) being offered at the same price.

It must be noted the costs considered by the Austrian Air Force and Ministry of Defense were not life-cycle costs, as India is going to adjudge. The costs are the offers made for the aircraft, in addition to weapons systems and other support systems. Nor does the report mention the performance criteria which were weighed in tabulating the cumulative military benefits of both aircraft. Each performance criteria may also be weighed differently and indeed, Indian requirements may well be very different.

But at the stage of consideration of the commercial bids, will the ministry also look at issues such as the opportunity cost in the event of a crash of one of these aircraft? If a single-engine aircraft loses an engine, say in the event of a bird hit, the IAF loses the aircraft and possibly also the pilot. If a twin-engine aircraft loses an engine, the IAF loses an engine, which can be replaced, says the representative of another vendor in the contest. But single-engine fighter aircraft vendors claim that engines in current twin-engine aircraft have very few failure modes that allow an engine to run in case the other fails and that they are so closely fitted that an engine down due to bird hit or weapon strike would probably result in an explosion, causing the other to malfunction.

*Most aircraft in the MMRCA competition are fairly recent developments and do not have an operational history lengthy enough to get an idea of their reliability in terms of the number of their engines*.

The United States Air Force (USAF) figures tabulating engine-related Class A mishaps for single-engine and twin-engine aircraft tell an interesting story. Class A mishaps are those where the total cost of damage is $1 million or more, and/or involves destroyed aircraft, and/or fatal injury, and/or permanent total disability. The USAF Air Safety Center has tabulated charts up to March 31, 2010 and, in general, the rate of engine-related Class A mishaps is higher in single-engine combat aircraft than in twin-engine aircraft.

From 1972 to last December, the F-15 had chalked up 5,783,436 flight hours. In this time, 140 of these aircraft suffered Class A mishaps with 118 aircraft destroyed and 50 people killed, including 43 pilots. Since 1975 to December 2009, the F-16 had flown 9,217,670 hours, suffering 339 Class A mishaps, with 309 aircraft destroyed and 116 people killed, including 80 pilots.

The USAF Air Safety Center has put together statistics for engine-related Class A mishaps of F-16 aircraft running on four different engines and F-15 aircraft running on three different engines. Two engines are common to both aircraft. According to these statistics, the F-16 has suffered 70 engine-related Class A mishaps after 6,408,377 Engine Flight Hours running on the four different engines (not counting the record of the aircraft running on the F100-PW-200 engine), while the F-15 has suffered 31 engine-related Class A mishaps after 11,409,530 Engine Flight Hours on the three engines listed.

When comparing the reliability of both aircraft in terms of common engine usage, the F-16 experienced 23 engine-related Class A mishaps after 2,062,376 Engine Flight Hours on the F100-PW-220 engine since 1991. The F-15, powered by the same engines, suffered 9 engine-related Class A mishaps after 3,105,962 Engine Flight Hours, since1989.

The F-15, powered by the F100-PW-229 engine, suffered 4 engine-related Class A mishaps after 859,542 Engine Flight Hours, since 1997. The F-16, running the same engine, suffered zero engine-related Class A mishaps after 244,846 Engine Flight Hours till date.

Lockheed Martin dismisses the idea that these figures indicate single-engine aircraft to be less reliable than twin-engine. Its Director of Advanced Development Programs, Michael Griswold, points out that engines have improved over time and that even the next generation F-35 runs on a single engine and is safe enough to be envisaged for operations off aircraft carriers. He also thinks this kind of comparison between the F-16 and other aircraft isnt necessarily valid, as they have totally different missions and different roles.

But for the IAF, this comparison may well become relevant considering the variety of aircraft in the MMRCA contest.


----------



## ARCHON

*Lockheed-Martin Dismisses Rumours, Issues Statement​*







Just received this statement from the folks at Lockheed-Martin: "Lockheed Martin continues to be impressed with the disciplined acquisition process being followed by the Indian Air Force and Ministry of Defense. Under this process, as described by the Defense Procurement Procedure, the short list will not be decided until an assessment of compliance with the qualitative requirements is completed by the IAF and MoD. Therefore, any speculation about who is a front runner or who will be short listed is premature. What we do know is the F-16IN Super Viper would bring tremendous capabilities now and for the future to the Indian Air Force and would strengthen the strategic partnership between India and the U.S. and between the Indian Air Force and the United States Air Force."

LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence: Lockheed-Martin Dismisses Rumours, Issues Statement


----------



## jha

*Now Russian Media reports*


*MiG-35 stalls in Indian fighter tender contract *​BY: RIA Novosti

Russias MiG-35 multirole fighter aircraft has failed to make the short-list in a $10 billion international tender for 126 combat aircraft for the Indian air force, according to Indian media reports quoted by Kommersant daily.

The favorites to win the tender are the French Dassault Rafale and the Eurofighter Typhoon, Indian media say.





Russias United Aircraft Corporation (UAC), the holding company for most of the Russian aircraft industry, and its fighter subsidiary MiG, have not officially confirmed the reports.

The official results of the tender have not yet been announced, said UACs Press Secretary Konstantin Lantratov.

The MiG-35 is not leaving the tender, and I have no official information about this, said UAC First Vice-President Mikhail Pogosyan.

A MiG source quoted by Kommersant said it was too early to say what the Indians had decided.

The envelopes with the commercial proposals should be studied by the tender commission only this week, the source said.

Several sources quoted by the paper listed a raft of problems around the MiG-35 program, including a lack of financing to support it. One source said the lack of state funding to support the program had been noted by UAC President Aleksei Fyodorov as long ago as the end of 2008, but the issue was not resolved.

The MiG-35 is said to be a cheaper aircraft than its rivals but is said to have problems with engine life.

Time between overhauls should be at least 2000 hours and overall life 4000 hours, but the RD-33 doesnt meet these parameters now, said one source.

India already operates the early model MiG-29A fighter aircraft and is taking delivery of the MiG-29K naval fighter, which it will operate from a Russian-built aircraft carrier which is currently under refit.

The selection of two favored aircraft for the Indian tender follows a long trials process, which also involved Swedens SAAB Gripen, Americas Lockheed Martin with the F-16, and Boeings F-18 Super Hornet, as well as the Russian MiG-35.


----------



## ARCHON

*Xclusive : Air Chief Complains To Antony, MMRCA, Other Deals Delayed Due To Inefficient DOFA, New Body Likely For Offsets !!!*

Chindits: Xclusive : Air Chief Complains To Antony, MMRCA, Other Deals Delayed Due To Inefficient DOFA, New Body Likely For Offsets !!!

With a setback in the offset implementation hitting big defence deals, Air Chief Marshal, P V Naik, who is also the Chairman Chiefs of Staff Committee, has complained to Defence Minister A K Antony, to intervene and set right the functioning of the Defence Offset Facilitation Agency (DOFA), with the most affected being the Rs 42,000 crore 126 aircraft deal for the IAF (Indian Air Force).

The deal for the 126 MMRCA (meduim multi-role combat aircraft) of the IAF is the first and the only deal so far to have 50 percent offsets, *and is mid-way through its processing*.

*DOFA, under Department of Defence, Ministry of Defence, has come under severe criticism by the MoD and the services for its inefficiency and incompetence in handling offset matters, leading to inordinate delays in finalisation of offset programmes thereby affecting early procurement of defence equipment for the armed forces.*

Offsets were introduced in the Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP) in 2006 for the first time, whereby it was applicable to defence deals costing more than Rupees 300 crore, where 30 percent of the deal shall come back in terms of investment or technology transfer, into India, meaning it was an arrangement to plough back 30 percent cost of the deal in the form of technology transfers or anything similar. But the amended DPP- 2008 clarified that technology transfers could not form part of the offset programme.

*Some of the programmes which have been affected due to inability in finalising offsets, are procurement of Survey Target and Towing aircraft, additional Aerostat radars, MICA missiles, additional executive jets for VVIP, and the upgrade of Mirage-2000 aircraft contract.*

A source told DNA that, "After the introduction of the offset concept in the defence procurement procedure, the delays caused due to improper handling of the programme has been taken seriously as there are a lot of proposals held up affecting defence modernization."

It is likely that a separate and more powerful body namely Defence Offset Management Wing will be created in the MoD in view of the latest developments, which will ensure timely implementation of offsets.

Joint Secretary Satyajeet Rajan in the MoD heads the DOFA as its Chairman. When DNA tried contacting Rajan, he was unavailable for comments.

Defence Minister Antony, it is learnt, has asked DOFA to immediately look into the matter and resolve it, so as to avoid criticism from the armed forces.


----------



## dbc

birdofprey said:


> It is likely that a separate and more powerful body namely *Defence Offset Management Wing will be created in the MoD* in view of the latest developments, which will ensure timely implementation of offsets.



Don't you just love government efficiency - their answer to delays is to create yet another layer of bureaucracy

Reactions: Like Like:
3


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## ejaz007

*MMRCA: Updates and Developments*


*Aug 7/10:*
Indias Times Now news show reports that the M-MRCA trials will leave only Dassaults Rafale and EADS Eurofighter in the race. Well see. Brahmand | Livefist.

*July 27/10:*
India Today reports on the remaining M-MRCA process. Elsewhere, it echoes nebulous rumors that some of the candidates failed high-altitude testing at Leh:

After this, the commercial bids of each would be opened by the defence ministry mandarins, who will, for the first time, examine the commercial offers made by the companies more than two years ago. For the first time, a new system of costfixing has been introduced that not only takes into account the unit prices but also calculates the life cycle costs-which takes into account the cost of maintenance and spares for the period, estimated at 40 years, the aircraft would remain operational. On the basis of this, the lowest bidder (L1) would be determined by a commercial negotiation committee headed by an additional secretary of the ministry. The committee will also have members of the service headquarters of the army, navy and air force. They would then conduct price negotiations with the L1 bidder to improve upon the initial offer. Finally, a paper would be prepared for the Cabinet Committee on Security that would have to give its seal of approval and award the contract. It is at this stage, before the contract is awarded, that government-to-government negotiations would be conducted to get the best additional benefits for the country.

*July 21/10:*
At Farnborough 2010, HAL and its partners announce a significant piece of equipment for global F-16s. Right now, F-16s can only be refueled via a dorsal refueling boom, but many air forces depend on refueling probes that fit into hose-and-drogue systems, a preference shared by the US Navy. Indias competition requires hose-and-drogue refueling  and now a team of HAL, Lockheed Martin, Flight Refueling Ltd. in the UK, and Israel Aerospace Industries has a solution.

Many F-16s already carry conformal fuel tanks that add lots of fuel, but minimize the associated drag and performance hit. The Conformal Aerial Refueling Tank System (CARTS) modifies the right-forward conformal tank to include a pop-out refueling probe, and the system feeds fuel into the fighter directly through the same refuel manifold that a refueling boom would use. This makes CARTS a plug-and-play solution that can be retrofitted to global F-16 fleets, and gives the team a key niche product no matter what choice India makes. Defense World | F-16.NET (incl. picture).

*July 16/10:*
Indias Chief of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal PV Naik, tells IANS that the Indian Air Force will sign the contract to buy 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) within a year, and that the IAF flight evaluations will be ready by month-end, and submitted to the defence ministry. After that, the sealed bids will be opened and the aircraft will be short-listed for commercial evaluation. Indias Economic Times | Hindustan Times.

India&#8217;s M-MRCA Fighter Competition


----------



## jha

*Here you go another one....*

*Pakistan Not Flying UAE Block 60 F-16s, Lockheed Says*






Lockheed Martin is denying allegations that Pakistans pilots are flying United Arab Emirates (UAE) Block 60 F-16 fighters.

The accusation comes as the downselect for Indias 126-fighter Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) program draws closer. Lockheed Martin is offering its Block 60 F-16IN, called Super Viper, in that competition. There is concern in certain circles that in a combat situation, India would not have an advantage if Pakistan is flying the same type of fighter.

*This is highly unlikely, says Michael Griswold, director of advanced development programs at Lockheed Martin. Wed have known this ... There is no evidence [of it]. There is an agreement between the U.S. and the UAE that [they] wont allow that to happen.
*
*Besides, he adds, the Block 50 that Pakistan has is a different plane ... And it takes a lot of training [to fly it]. The Indian air force knows their threats and the Request for Proposals is detailed.
*
Meanwhile, the company has received a request for information (RFI) from the Indian navy seeking information on the F-35B short take-off/vertical landing variant, and the C version for carrier operations.

The navy, which plans to build its second indigenous aircraft carrier, is considering catapult launch.

An RFI for the F/A-18 for the navy has also gone to Boeing, according to Vivek Lall, vice president of Boeing Defense Space &amp; Security. Rafale also has been asked to submit a response to the RFI.


----------



## ARCHON

It will be a good tactic if the MRCA is split between 74 F-16s and 126 Rafale.

F-16s have an advantage over a lot of things.

People say its not advisable since enemy flies it and have knowledge about it more with experience it gained during all these years.

I see, if we get the best F-16s we can also know what the enemy's best fighter jet is capable of and can gain great knowledge about it which is much better than knowing anything significant at all.

Isn't it it better to know the enemy better in a conflict situation.???

Also with the Lockheed Joint ventures and proposal of production line shifting to India, we can choke the manufacturer for preventing further freebees and all by the *only* non Chinese fighter provider of the enemy. 

It can create chaos without much aggression and pressure tactics in future.


----------



## Dr sim

birdofprey said:


> It will be a good tactic if the MRCA is split between 74 F-16s and 126 Rafale.
> 
> F-16s have an advantage over a lot of things.
> 
> People say its not advisable since enemy flies it and have knowledge about it more with experience it gained during all these years.
> 
> I see, if we get the best F-16s we can also know what the enemy's best fighter jet is capable of and can gain great knowledge about it which is much better than knowing anything significant at all.
> 
> Isn't it it better to know the enemy better in a conflict situation.???
> 
> Also with the Lockheed Joint ventures and proposal of production line shifting to India, we can choke the manufacturer for preventing further freebees and all by the *only* non Chinese fighter provider of the enemy.
> 
> It can create chaos without much aggression and pressure tactics in future.


a fighter plane is not a toy, U cannot master it overnight. PAF has been flying F-16s for decades , their pilots have 100s of flying hours on these platforms which gives them a huge advantage. Also F-16 has a very old airframe, no matter how many upgrades u do u cannot change the airframe significantly. IAF is looking for a bird which has a huge potential for upgrade in future and not a spentout (yet potent though) force like F-16


----------



## ARCHON

Dr sim said:


> a fighter plane is not a toy, *U cannot master it overnight*. PAF has been flying F-16s for decades , their pilots have 100s of flying hours on these platforms which gives them a huge advantage. Also F-16 has a very old airframe, no matter how many upgrades u do u cannot change the airframe significantly. IAF is looking for a bird which has a huge potential for upgrade in future and not a spentout (yet potent though) force like F-16



It is same and applicable for EF and any other new fighters we will be buying.. so ur point is not that important. And we already have Su-30MKI's and the second half ( Split MRCA) fighter for supremacy.


----------



## saurabh

jha said:


> *Besides, he adds, the Block 50 that Pakistan has is a different plane ... And it takes a lot of training [to fly it]. The Indian air force knows their threats and the Request for Proposals is detailed.
> *



What is this supposed to mean??!!


----------



## Dash

> What is this supposed to mean??!!



That means that we know what kind of aircraft we need and thats based on our existing inventory and doctorine.


----------



## saurabh

Dash said:


> That means that we know what kind of aircraft we need and thats based on our existing inventory and doctorine.



Sounds more like we know what kind of aircraft enemy has (threat!) and RFI has details of countermeasures required!!
Must be my imagination..


----------



## kish

when official declaration is expected for shortlisted contenders ?


----------



## Break the Silence

kish said:


> when official declaration is expected for shortlisted contenders ?



Well bro here is something for you!!

*India's MMRCA jet selection to be completed by year end* 

*The Indian Air Force (IAF) has submitted a report on the trials it has conducted on six combat jets it is evaluating for an order for 126 aircraft and expects the selection of the fighter within a year. 
The IAF chief, Air Chief Marshal P.V. Naik, is quoted by India Strategic defence magazine (..:: India Strategic ::.. Home Page: The authoritative monthly on Defence and Strategic Affairs.) as saying that the exhaustive field evaluation trials (FET) report covered all the aircraft in contention, and that once the selection has been made, he expected the chosen jet to be in service within three years, say by 2014. 
Naik also disclosed that after completing the combat jet trials, the IAF had also completed the field trials of utility helicopters and combat helicopters. The trials of the heavy-lift helicopters were, meanwhile, in the final phase. 
The next four years are crucial but by 2014, IAF would have all the new aircraft and helicopters well in place as part of its transformation process now underway, India Strategic quotes Naik as saying in its coming issue. *
Each system is being acquired along with its training simulators. 
As for the combat jet selection process, the air chief gave no indication as to how each of the six aircraft in the fray performed during the trials. He only observed that the IAF had completed its assignment and submitted the report to the defence ministry July-end  on time as promised. 
*The Russian Mig-35 (initially designated Mig-29M2), Europes Eurofighter Typhoon, the Swedish Gripen, the French Rafale, and the US Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and Lockheed Martins F-16IN Super Viper are in the fray. The IAF tender is for 126 aircraft with an option for 63 more. *
As for the combat helicopters, Naik said that both the Russian 
Mi-28 and US Boeing Apache AH 64D had been tested in India. Some weapon trials are due to be conducted in the country of origin. The IAF had issued a request for proposal for 22 combat helicopters to replace its ageing Soviet vintage Mi-35s. 
Trials of Boeings Chinook CH 47F heavy-lift helicopter had also been completed, while that of Russian Mi-26 were likely to be held this month. The IAF needs 15 heavy-lift helicopters to replace and augment its ageing fleet of half-a-dozen obsolete Mi-26s acquired in the mid-1980s. 
Trials of the utility helicopters, needed both for the IAF and the Indian Army, are also over. The Eurocopter Fennec 555 and Russias Kamov 226 are the two contenders. The two services have tendered for a combined order of 197 helicopters. 
All aircraft and helicopters are required to operate in the varied hot, humid, desert and high altitude environment of India, particularly to support the deployments in the Himalayan region. 
The IAF wants to minimize its inventory of its flying machines to reduce their maintenance costs on the one hand and to increase their operational availability on the other. 
Naik said that appropriate infrastructure and communication nodes were also being created as part of the IAFs transformation process now underway. 
*The IAF aims to have 45 combat squadrons  approximately 800 aircraft  by 2022. Of these, it is already set to acquire more than 270 Sukhoi Su-30MKI air dominance aircraft from Russia. These include 42 aircraft being ordered through Indias state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, which is making the aircraft under the licence and transfer of technology (ToT) routes*

Latest Defence news: India's MMRCA jet selection to be completed by year end


----------



## ARCHON

*MAG REPORT: F-16, MiG-35, Typhoon Make The Cut, While Rafale, Super Hornet & Gripen Don't*











WTF is wrong here???

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## trident2010

*MAG REPORT: F-16, MiG-35, Typhoon Make The Cut, While Rafale, Super Hornet & Gripen Don't *






After Times NOW's report on the MMRCA a few days ago, try this next one on for size. The latest edition of India's STRATEGIC AFFAIRS magazine has the piece above, which has sources telling it that the Viper, Fulcrum and Typhoon are in, while the Hornet, Gripen and Rafale are finito in India's MMRCA competition. If you can ignore the proof-reading, what technical parameters could possibly put the F-16, MiG-35 and Typhoon above the other three? Any theories?


LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence: MAG REPORT: F-16, MiG-35, Typhoon Make The Cut, While Rafale, Super Hornet & Gripen Don't


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## Jacobtheindoamerican

Tired of the B.S.. I seriously hope we dont get another Russian plane when we already have the MKi. India can get other planes like the Rafale..


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## CONNAN

*BULL **** NEWS HAVENT WE HAD ENOUGH THREADS ON THIS MMRCA WHY EVERY TOM DICK HARRY OPENS A THREAD*

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## INDIAISM

birdofprey said:


> It is same and applicable for EF and any other new fighters we will be buying.. so ur point is not that important. And we already have Su-30MKI's and the second half ( Split MRCA) fighter for supremacy.



1)it takes atleast 5 yrs for the pilot to master the aircraft
2)we r not getting 100% tot of f-16
3)they r not ready to give us software source codes of the AESA radar
4)f-16 was desiegned in 70ies.......so its quite an old desiegn and not to 4get L.M is not going to spends its money in r&d for the upgradation of f-16
last but not the least MRCA winner will serve IAF till 2050


Aftr looking to all this i think rafale will b best bet for us..........................
*1)*latest deseign,
*2)*Back bone of french airforce(so their high chances of its upgrade) 

a)typhoon- Future upgrade to khuda jaane wo to abhi se is typhoon se apna palla jhadne ki koshish kr rhe(bechare na nigal pa rhe hai ugal)
b)mig-35-Russian airforce itself is not buying this
c)F-18------U.S
d)Gripen---lca ko kya tel jlane ke liye bnaya tha...

*3)*100%tot
*4)*we will get the software source code of aesa radar without any fuss
*5)*they will b more thn happy to help us in improving lca tejas


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## COLDHEARTED AVIATOR

F-16????....you gotta be kiddin!

Such news will keep comming...so get used to it..i have developed immunity to such news so there is no excitement,sadness or happiness when i come across these news.

Waiting for the declaration from IAF.


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## k7x

this is called " give and take policy".. In tamil Pottu vangarathu. 

it is a technique to spread some rumor and get some news from official source.


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## eric_cartman

If Rafael is out then it is a very sad news indeed! it's a very capable fighter plance


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## dbc

The author does not inspire any confidence..


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## jha

This is becoming really irritating...everyday a new thread is opened on the same topic....why cant you post in sticky thread....


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## gubbi

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> The author does not inspire any confidence..



Yup. True.

The final say will be by the MoD, and they and only they will sign the contract for the MMRCA winner - based on various factors including IAF recommendations. Until then, its all speculation and one shouldnt pay any heed to any such news 'leaks'.

It would be interesting, though, to study the contents of the IAF report being tabled. Only if wikileaks could manage to get their hands on that one!


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## Imran Khan

god damn every time i see new thread i just click it that finial news is come its from last three years. and then our new indian members open and start post refale mig-35 eu fighter or su-35 and i feel like its from new. its enugh yaar now open a thread when there is final news.promise i will thank that post.


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## My-Analogous

FINAL NEWS ALL PLANES IS OUT OF MRCA and it is been finalize by Indian Media and report say that Indian Media earns Billions of Dollar to finance there own fighter for MRCA competition


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## CONNAN

*stupid senseless media*


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## brahmastra

Why don't we wait for official statement.


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## CONNAN




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## Imran Khan

connanxlrc1000 said:


>



 ye hai final


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## dbc

gubbi said:


> It would be interesting, though, to study the contents of the IAF report being tabled. Only if wikileaks could manage to get their hands on that one!



Yes, the report contents will be interesting to read - don't you have any friends or relatives in the air force?


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## gubbi

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Yes, the report contents will be interesting to read - don't you have any friends or relatives in the air force?



My F-i-L. Not exactly on the best of terms with him and he never ever discusses work at his home, even if he is totally drunk.


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## ejaz007

connanxlrc1000 said:


>



So this is what IAF is buying. Impressive


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## ejaz007

On a serious note defense news is reporting different. According to them F-16, F-18 and Mig-35 are out. The post is in the main MRCA thread.


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## ARCHON

INDIAISM said:


> 1)
> 
> 
> 
> it takes atleast 5 yrs for the pilot to master the aircraft
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It takes 5 years to master "any' winner of the MRCA. Better master the one which enemy has.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2)we r not getting 100% tot of f-16
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> We dont need 100% TOT for F-16s. We just need the things we need to know.
> 
> We already have AESA radar And all in the making.
> 
> 
> 
> 3
> 
> 
> 
> )they r not ready to give us software source codes of the AESA radar
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> So what??? let them have the source codes with them.
> 
> 4)
> 
> 
> 
> f-16 was desiegned in 70ies.......so its quite an old desiegn and not to 4get L.M is not going to spends its money in r&d for the upgradation of f-16
> last but not the least MRCA winner will serve IAF till 2050
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Nobody has any doubt about the capabilities and orders will keep the production line open and we can even convince them to move the production line to India.
> 
> Ofcourse the winner will serve till 2050 or more so does F-16s.
> 
> I dont understand why you think LM will not spend money for R&D for up-gradation of F-16s. Do u have any source for that or any LM statement saying so. F-16s are the most evolved ones throuh the ages and we have seen them in up-gradation *bloke*s over these years.
> Aftr looking to all this i think rafale will b best bet for us..........................
> 
> [
> 
> 
> 
> B]1)[/B]latest deseign,
> *2)*Back bone of french airforce(so their high chances of its upgrade)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> design upgrade????? whats that???
> 
> 
> 
> 
> a)typhoon- Future upgrade to khuda jaane wo to abhi se is typhoon se apna palla jhadne ki koshish kr rhe(bechare na nigal pa rhe hai ugal)
> b)mig-35-Russian airforce itself is not buying this
> c)F-18------U.S
> d)Gripen---lca ko kya tel jlane ke liye bnaya tha...
> 
> *3)*100%tot
> *4)*we will get the software source code of aesa radar without any fuss
> *5)*they will b more thn happy to help us in improving lca tejas]
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I already stated the best possible one is a split between EF or Rafale and F-16s
Click to expand...


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## ARCHON

*India plays down reports of MMRCA decision*


11 August 2010


The official spokesman of the Indian Ministry of Defence (MoD) has downplayed media reports that France's Dassault Rafale and the Eurofighter Typhoon have emerged as favourites to win India's Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) contest.

Speaking to Jane's on 10 August, Sitanshu Kar said no decisions have been made about the programme following the MoD's receipt of a comprehensive trial report on the six rival fighters competing for the INR420 billion (USD9.1 billion) contract.

Some media outlets in India had earlier reported that the results of the MMRCA technical evaluations, which concluded in mid-2010, had prompted the Indian Air Force (IAF) to recommend to the MoD that the shortlist be narrowed down to just two aircraft: the Rafale and Typhoon.

The other platforms competing for the 126-aircraft tender are Boeing's F/A-18E/F, Lockheed Martin's F-16IN, the Russian United Aircraft Corporation's MiG-35 and Saab's JAS 39 Gripen NG.

India plays down reports of MMRCA decision


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## ejaz007

Personally I would be glad if you select any of the US fighters. Than you would know how difficult it is to negotiate with the Americans. Once you enter into final negotiations than you will come to know what they shall be giving you and what not. Your acquisition plans would be delayed by atleast one year.


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## Markus

Fu$k this UPA government if F-16 makes it to even last 3.


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## Dark Angel

*Every defence deal takes time this is not any $200-400 million deal its a $ 12 billion deal 

At our pakistani friends i would like to ask why hasent the U-214 been finalised yet even on papers 

All the fighters are world class so evaluating them throughly is essential and then political bargain also plays a vital role so the intellectuals will hold their horses and know that we will get the best there is to offer on the plate *

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## flanker143

*A Big Fat MMRCA Update*

Sick of hearsay and rumours? Well, here's some stuff that's confirmed true, new, and potentially explosive for contenders in the Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) competition. Let me just start by saying that the ball is squarely with the MoD now -- the field evaluation trial report has been submitted, but has not yet been approved by the MoD. There is likely to be a measure of back and forth between South Block and Vayu Bhawan before it is approved and passed on for the next stage. In the meanwhile, chew on this. No rumours here.

Point One, T*he Indian Air Force won't choose a twin-engine aircraft in the MMRCA, if a single-engine aircraft can "do the job", i.e, is satisfactorily compliant on all 643 test points that each of the six airplanes were tested for during the field evaluation trials (FETs).* The IAF is of the view that both single and twin engine platforms have their own advantages, but that it will not discriminate between the two. If all six aircraft are compliant, the cheapest will be selected whether its twin or single-engined.

Point Two, and this is a biggie -- The model being used to gauge cost is not the lifecycle cost (LCC) model as was previously thought. That model has been dumped since the IAF perceives it to be indeterminable (read, ambiguous), and not measured in precisely the same way across the six aircraft being offered.* In other words, the MMRCA purchase model will be based on unit flyaway cost of aircraft and financing options -- i.e, not overall cost of ownership*. The IAF decided that it would only work with what is "determinable". In other words, no complex formulae on future savings on maintenance and overhaul. Do you see why I used the word bombshell in the post title? 

Point *Three, cost is going to be a big determinant. Out of the six aircraft that are judged compliant, the cheapest will be identified as L1, and will logically be the chosen aircraft*.

Point Three-and-a-half, it emerges now that each vendor was extensively briefed on their performance once the trials were over, so they have a comprehensive sense of how they performed -- their function of compliance, if you will -- but they have nothing to compare it with. So unless you account for industrial espionage, none of the vendors know how the others have performed, but know exactly how well or badly their own platform performed during trials.

Point Four, *the air force's trial report has been submitted to the MoD, but the latter hasn't approved it yet*. The trial report strictly contains a tabulated representation of each contending platform's compliance or otherwise for each of 643 test points. Significantly, the trial report does not quantify the level of compliance of each airplane, but rather leaves this for the MoD to understand. In other words, *the trial report has all the data and results, but no recommendations, no merit list, no explicit downselect, no stated eliminations, nothing.* Yet, by virtue of the data it presents, everything is implicit. It provides the data. It provides the benchmarks for compliance. The MoD figures out who's in, who's not quite in, who's definitely out. The IAF hasn't put that down.* The IAF has submitted a "factual report" -- the rest is upto the MoD. Again, there's been no ranking at any stage.*

Point Five, there have been frequent attempts by various players to suggest that some of the non-US contenders will have trouble getting export licenses for subsystems that may be of American origin (like the Gripen's engines, weapons on some of the others etc). Let's lay that to rest for now -- *the IAF extracted government-endorsed guarantees from each such contending vendor that there would be no problems in the supply of such equipment, and it was based on this guarantee certificate that the contender was allowed to participate in trials.*

*Finally, the option exists for the IAF to go for more than 126 aircraft, but a decision has not yet been taken on whether to club that option with the principal purchase.*


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## flanker143

*'IAF combat jet selection will be political decision'*

2010-08-12 17:40:00 
The Indian Air Force (IAF) might have laid down 643 parameters while evaluating the six fighters in contention for its $10 billion order for 126 medium multi-role combat jets (MMRCAs) *but the eventual decision on this will be taken at the political level, an informed source said Thursday.*

'The evaluation was meticulously done with the aircraft examined on 643 parameters. We have submitted a report to the defence ministry stating to which extent the aircraft were compliant,' the source said, requesting anonymity as he was not authorised to speak to the media.

'We have done an objective assessment taking into account the needs of national security. *There will be political considerations (in making the final choice)*.

*'The cost will be a factor. Politics will also be a factor,*' the source said, adding: 'We have not graded the aircraft but only stated the extent to which they are compliant with the parameters we laid down.'

*The IAF submitted its report last month. Once this is evaluated by the ministry, all six manufacturers will be called and told which three of them have been shortlisted for the final round.* The commercial bids of these three manufacturers will then be opened and negotiations conducted to decide on the eventual price.

*The contract is likely to be signed early in 2011.*

The six jets in contention are the Boeing F/A-18 Super Hornet, the Lockheed Martin F-16IN Super Viper, the Eurofighter Typhoon, the Saab Gripen, the Dasault Rafale and the MiG-35.

One set of flight trials was conducted in India last year and another in the country of manufacture earlier this year, which included the live firing of ammunition.

Eighteen of the planes will be bought in a fly-away condition and the remaining manufactured in India by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) under a transfer of technology (TOT) agreement.


----------



## kish

Jacobtheindoamerican said:


> Tired of the B.S.. I seriously hope we dont get another Russian plane when we already have the MKi. India can get other planes like the Rafale..



we are going to get 42 more mki and pak fa in future.


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## kish

[QUOTE=birdofprey;
This could be the effect of Indian Air Force tender for Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA).

REALLY??
HOW??


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## sancho

birdofprey said:


> It takes 5 years to master "any' winner of the MRCA. Better master the one which enemy has.



Not really, because PAF it will make it only easier for PAF, because they know that fighter better than we do. If we get a new fighter instead, we can master it in 5 years, if you want, but PAF has to build complete new counter tactics, which are based on estimations, but not on actual experience. Not to mention that F16 B52 and F16IN will use even the same weapons, so no advantage their either, while Eurocanards offer latest missiles combos!
Also don't forget that MMRCAs will be deployed mainly against PLAAF and they have more more capable fighters than PAFs F16s and will the F16 IN have an edge against J10Bs? I have my doubts!




birdofprey said:


> We dont need 100&#37; TOT for F-16s. We just need the things we need to know.
> 
> We already have AESA radar And all in the making.



No offense, but is this an argument? You do know that we are asking for more ToT than it is usual in such deals right? So the more ToT we can get from latest techs (not only airframe parts), the higher the use for us and the preferable! 




birdofprey said:


> So what??? let them have the source codes with them.



And ask them anytime we want to reconfig the radars for a mission? Why should IAF makes itself so dependent if they have several options with source codes?




birdofprey said:


> Nobody has any doubt about the capabilities and orders will keep the production line open and we can even convince them to move the production line to India.
> 
> Ofcourse the winner will serve till 2050 or more so does F-16s.



The only F16 that could be in service for that long and needs higher upgrades, are the UAE Block 60s (80 in numbers). All other F16 operators will phase out them way earlier and some new operators that bought B52s, will get upgrades from B60, or IN. This obviously mean that there are only 2 customers that needs further upgrades and who will pay for them? UAE is likely to just sell their F16s if they can get F35s, way before their live comes to the end, but IAF isn't, especially not in the estimated numbers.
The future of F16 is for sure more than limited and if we want to keep these MMRCAs in service for up to 40 years, they have to offer not only latest designs, but upgrade potential too! 

The F16 was a good fighter and got good upgrades too, but it's life is
over and with our potential opponents in mind, it don't offer enough advanatges.


----------



## !!craft!!

man i am bored now ..i dont understand how certain members can discuss this crap for five years..just imagine what would happen if our babus say that ''none of these aircrafts a fit for the airforce requirement lets start the contract again''...


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## gurjot

!!craft!! said:


> man i am bored now ..i dont understand how certain members can discuss this crap for five years..just imagine what would happen if our babus say that ''none of these aircrafts a fit for the airforce requirement lets start the contract again''...



iaf should throw flying coffins on there residences if they start new trials.


----------



## Trisonics

*Decision on multi-billion fighter plane deal may be political*

New Delhi: India is now closer to finalising a USD 10 billion contract for 126 fighter aircraft with IAF submitting a report on the flight evaluation of six contenders for the 'mother of all deals', though top sources Thursday said the decision could be "political".

"We have submitted a voluminous report on the performance of the six bidding aircraft for the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) contract. The report is yet to be approved by the Defence Ministry. *The performance, cost and political considerations will all be factors in deciding the winning bid*," IAF sources said here.

*Mission objectives for the aircraft, national security considerations and international relations were cited by the sources as the "political factors" that could determine which way the contract would go.*

With the Flight Evaluation Trial (FET) report of the six aircraft in the fray finalised, the Defence Ministry will soon open the commercial bids of the six global fighter jet manufacturers to identify the lowest bid.

American Lockheed Martin F-16IN and Boeing F/A-18, French D'Assault Rafale, European consortium EADS' Eurofighter Typhoons, Swedish SAAB Gripen and Russian MiG-35 are in the fray for the contract for which a tender was floated in August 2007.

"We have gone exactly according to the Request for Proposals (RFP) and have set 643 parameters or Air Staff Qualitative Requirements (ASQRs) which the aircraft were evaluated against for compliance. We have submitted an objective report on the compliance and non-compliance of the six aircraft," the sources said.
*
The sources made it clear that the IAF had not created a "merit list" and had only given its reports evaluating each of the aircraft against the ASQRs.*

"*The process of FET has been so rigorous and meticulous that the trial methodology and report is probably the best in the world and could be a model for other Air Forces for conducting their FETs for their contracts," the sources said*.

Noting that none of the aircraft had complied fully with all the parameters set by the IAF, they said there were "varying degrees of compliance and non-compliance" by each of the contenders for the mega deal, estimated to be worth Rs 4,700 crore in Indian currency.

They also refused to comment on the aircraft's suitability for the IAF, but said, "all platforms are top of the line aircraft."

To a query if more number of MMRCA, over and above the 126 stated in the current bids, could be ordered, the sources said the option of going in for an additional number was part of the tender documents, though a decision would be taken on it only after the current deal was through.

PTI 

Decision on multi-billion fighter plane deal may be political


----------



## Trisonics

another report 

Indian Fighter Downselect Coming 

With flight trials complete, the downselect process has begun for the six candidate fighters in India&#8217;s Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) program, a competition with a $10 billion-plus payday for providing 126 aircraft.

Opinions vary widely among observers on how long it will take to narrow the field to two finalists from among the MiG-35, Dassault Rafale, EADS Eurofighter, Saab Gripen, Boeing F/A-18 and Lockheed Martin F-16.

Some speculate an announcement might come in just two weeks. Others insist it will take much longer to evaluate the extensive technical reports that the tests have produced. Regardless, a commercial bidding process will follow the announcement. *Final selection is to be made by the end of 2011.*

Trials included 643 test points. Results are being forwarded as tabulated data without a quantification of the level of compliance achieved, a senior Indian air force official reports. &#8220;We have done an objective assessment and are taking into account the needs of national security,&#8221; he says. But cost and politics will play a role in the defense ministry&#8217;s selection, he acknowledges.

French President Sarkozy&#8217;s visit to India this year is expected to be followed by a host of inducements, including a large transfer of technology, on behalf of the Rafale.

India has yet to sign the Communications and Information Security Memorandum of Agreement with the U.S. that sets limits on what sensitive technology the U.S. will export. It may be signed during President Barack Obama&#8217;s scheduled visit to India in November.

Beyond informal briefings said to already have taken place, the six manufacturers are to receive a 250-page technical evaluation of how they did.* Problems during the trials included the failures of engines and large electromechanical actuation systems.*

Meanwhile, the defense ministry has revealed that it will buy 42 more Su-30MKI fighters, with deliveries to unfold between 2014-2018 (Aerospace DAILY, Aug. 11). The $4.3 billion deal, which will run through Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd., is a top-up order that is to bring the Indian Su-30 inventory to more than 250 aircraft and the number of HAL-assembled versions to close to 200 fighters.

Talks continue with Russia about joint development of the T-50 (or PAK-FA), a fifth-generation fighter developed by Sukhoi. The program is valued at $8 billion. Whether those talks will work to the advantage of the MiG-35 MMRCA fighter candidate is unclear.


----------



## gurjot

to how many countries india will offer mrca.
u.s obama is cming,sarkozy is coming,cameron just reached the england.
who is left .......putin.


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## lemurian

wow! Chomsky's "Manufacturing Consent" in practice. Soon every newspaper and magazine in India will come up with their list until the public gets bored...


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## ARCHON

Gripens new adv.

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## Chanakyaa

Attention Please...

Going by the needs Rafale n SH seem to be the best.. The closest alternatives to Mirage V..


Can IAF shift the AC Roles ?

I wanna ask the respected members.. Can IAF shift the role of Air dominance to Typhoon while filling the multi role A2G.. Needs by the MKIs??

So.. In 2025..

Some 50 Top of the like PAK FA
126-200 Typhoon Not for A2G but Air dominance
280 MKI for primarily A2G..
60 Mirage 2000 Upgraded again A2G
Mig 29 SMTs n LCAs as Interceptors...

The thing is Typhoon is a close 5th gen AC... With poor A2G capability... But it will shive our neighbours.. More than any aircraft...

Comments awaited...


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## Dark Angel

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


Good one mate i have pitched for EF all the way and would be happiest if it wins cause there is nothing comes close to it just like in its promotional video


----------



## flanker143

*Boeing Offers India "Super Hornet International Roadmap"*

Boeing has said it is offering India the "International Super Hornet Roadmap", which it describes as the next evolution of the Block II Super Hornet -- "which increases survivability, situational awareness, and performance for customers". The company says it has been investing in the International Roadmap for the last two years along with the US Navy. Under the programme, says Boeing, if India chooses the Super Hornet as part of the MMRCA, *the Indian Air Force will have the option of adding evolutionary technologies to the platform within this decade on an incremental basis starting 2015*. Funded by the US Navy and developed by Boeing, the roadmap on offer allows for the planned insertion of maturing technologies over time. Boeing says this would give the IAF flexibility over the years if they want to insert/ integrate the following new technologies:
*Enhanced Performance Engine
Next-generation cockpit
Missile laser warning
Internal Infra-Red Search & Track (IRST)
Conformal fuel tanks
Enclosed weapons pod
Designed-in stealth*
*Future survivability technology that will "make the Block II Super Hornet harder to detect, harder to hit, and harder to kill"*
According to a note that Boeing sent over, "While India is getting Block II of the Super Hornet, the International Super Hornet roadmap gives India the choice of considerable growth potential. India will be able to participate as an International Super Hornet Roadmap customer, if desired, and could potentially enhance future Indian Super Hornets. The design and growth of the Super Hornet has been done keeping a 40 year life span during which the aircraft remains combat proven."


----------



## anathema

XiNiX said:


> Attention Please...
> 
> Going by the needs Rafale n SH seem to be the best.. The closest alternatives to Mirage V..
> 
> 
> Can IAF shift the AC Roles ?
> 
> I wanna ask the respected members.. Can IAF shift the role of Air dominance to Typhoon while filling the multi role A2G.. Needs by the MKIs??
> 
> So.. In 2025..
> 
> Some 50 Top of the like PAK FA
> 126-200 Typhoon Not for A2G but Air dominance
> 280 MKI for primarily A2G..
> 60 Mirage 2000 Upgraded again A2G
> Mig 29 SMTs n LCAs as Interceptors...
> 
> The thing is Typhoon is a close 5th gen AC... With poor A2G capability... But it will shive our neighbours.. More than any aircraft...
> 
> Comments awaited...



Xinx -- 

Yes Typhoon can be used in Air Dominance role. But if selected in MRCA Air Dominance or superiority will not be its primary mission. why ? 
Because IAF has invested significant time and effort of more than 1 decade of devising of Air Dominance strategy for Su 30 MKI. The strategies and weakness have been horned and learned after years of playing around with a/c and participating in the international excercises. So pretty much they will not go through the learning curve again to make it a dedicated A2G role fighter. Su 30 can do it when needed but it wont be its primary mission -- and this is precisely where Typhoon falls apart - it lacks in A2G.


----------



## Dash

*Guys..
There is something you must read here. I hope our politicians in MRCA and burocrats play it safe.*

just FYI....not directly related to MRCA but indirectly.

Federal Bureau of Investigation - The Washington Field Office: Department of Justice Press Release


----------



## anathema

flanker143 said:


> *Boeing Offers India "Super Hornet International Roadmap"*
> 
> Boeing has said it is offering India the "International Super Hornet Roadmap", which it describes as the next evolution of the Block II Super Hornet -- "which increases survivability, situational awareness, and performance for customers". The company says it has been investing in the International Roadmap for the last two years along with the US Navy. Under the programme, says Boeing, if India chooses the Super Hornet as part of the MMRCA, *the Indian Air Force will have the option of adding evolutionary technologies to the platform within this decade on an incremental basis starting 2015*. Funded by the US Navy and developed by Boeing, the roadmap on offer allows for the planned insertion of maturing technologies over time. Boeing says this would give the IAF flexibility over the years if they want to insert/ integrate the following new technologies:
> *Enhanced Performance Engine
> Next-generation cockpit
> Missile laser warning
> Internal Infra-Red Search & Track (IRST)
> Conformal fuel tanks
> Enclosed weapons pod
> Designed-in stealth*
> *Future survivability technology that will "make the Block II Super Hornet harder to detect, harder to hit, and harder to kill"*
> According to a note that Boeing sent over, "While India is getting Block II of the Super Hornet, the International Super Hornet roadmap gives India the choice of considerable growth potential. India will be able to participate as an International Super Hornet Roadmap customer, if desired, and could potentially enhance future Indian Super Hornets. The design and growth of the Super Hornet has been done keeping a 40 year life span during which the aircraft remains combat proven."



ouuchh...thats a sucker punch by Boeing...If they can convince IAF about these capabilities and give a definite plan ...then SH stands a great chance.


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## sancho

XiNiX said:


> Attention Please...
> 
> Going by the needs Rafale n SH seem to be the best.. The closest alternatives to Mirage V..
> 
> 
> Can IAF shift the AC Roles ?
> 
> I wanna ask the respected members.. Can IAF shift the role of Air dominance to Typhoon while filling the multi role A2G.. Needs by the MKIs??
> 
> So.. In 2025..
> 
> Some 50 Top of the like PAK FA
> 126-200 Typhoon Not for A2G but Air dominance
> 280 MKI for primarily A2G..
> 60 Mirage 2000 Upgraded again A2G
> Mig 29 SMTs n LCAs as Interceptors...
> 
> The thing is Typhoon is a close 5th gen AC... With poor A2G capability... But it will shive our neighbours.. More than any aircraft...
> 
> Comments awaited...



Besides the points that anathema provided, by 2025 even the EF should be fully developed and should offer better A2A and A2G capabilities than the MKI. Not to forget that by that time IAF hopefully will habe some Pak Fa / FGFA for air superiority too, so besides them and MKI, there is no need for another air superiority fighter. That leaves A2G only for the EF and by then it could be useful for that role too, but what will IAF have in between (2015 - 2025)? In the aimed A2G roles only 50 upgraded Mirage 2000-5 and upgraded, but still old and limited capable Jaguars. 

MKI is a good strike fighter too, but mainly for heavy strikes when air superiority is already achieved, or from distance with A2G missiles. To enter enemy air space in preemptive strike missions will be very difficult for it, because of the big RCS and the fact that our opponents now have AWACS support too. So imo, in the timeframe you pointed out, MKI should remain the workhorse in air superiority with the first Pak Fa / FGFA above it and a second day strike fighter if you want. MMRCA instead should take over the air defense roles of Mig 29 and M2k (which will be phased out by then too), but more over the strike role of Mk2 and Jags from 2015 onwards. Which means it should offer good A2G capabilities now and also enough potential for a long time in service. The F16IN would offer a good strike capability too, but I have big doubts about its future potential, so I agree Rafale and F18SH suits IAF at best.


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## sancho

flanker143 said:


> *Boeing Offers India "Super Hornet International Roadmap"*
> 
> Boeing has said it is offering India the "International Super Hornet Roadmap", which it describes as the next evolution of the Block II Super Hornet -- "which increases survivability, situational awareness, and performance for customers". *The company says it has been investing in the International Roadmap for the last two years along with the US Navy.* Under the programme, says Boeing, if India chooses the Super Hornet as part of the MMRCA, *...*


*

This is an upgrade of the F18SH and will of course make it more useful for the future too, but we must have 2 things in mind here:

1. USN have invested in the study for possible future upgrades, but not cleared them so far. Most of it will depend on F35, because they don't need most of these upgraded techs, if F35 will be available. The GE 414 EPE for example is offered for export customers and must be funded and developed first, but USN has shown no interest on funding this.




Boeing's Super Hornet seeks export sale to launch 20% thrust upgrade
By Stephen Trimble

Boeing is seeking an international launch customer for a 20% higher thrust version of the General Electric F414 turbofan that powers the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet...

...While the USN seeks a new engine core to make the F414 more durable, some international customers are interested in a new engine fan that enables higher thrust, Gower said.
"The 'enhanced durability engine' becomes the 'enhanced performance engine' when you put the fan on it," Gower said.

Although the core enhancements are already under contract with the USN, the programme is seeking an export customer to launch development of the F414 EPE, Gower said.

The international order would lead to follow-on sales for the USN, which would gradually replace its current inventory with the improved version, Gower said.

Click to expand...


Boeing's Super Hornet seeks export sale to launch 20% thrust upgrade
**


2. The other upgrades as I said are good, but needed mainly to upgrade the older techs of the F18 design. Next-generation cockpit,
Missile laser warning, Internal Infra-Red Search & Track (IRST), are lates standard and already availabe in most of the other fighters.

Here the actual F18SH cockpit, in comparison to Rafale and Mig 29K (which should be similar to Mig 35):


















As you can see some of these upgrades are mainly needed, just to make the F18SH comparable to the others.


The rest of the upgrade is tricky imo, CFTs are a good idea and but I am not sure about these stealthy weapon pod. It's mainly for BVR and smaller A2G weapons, in very limited numbers, should increase drag and manouverability is an issue with the F18SH anyway. Don't know if it could reduce the RCS so far, that it really would give an advantage. The best would have been such CFTs with weapons bays like the F15SE, but they seems to be not possible for the F18.

So these upgrades are good, but who pays for them and what difference will they really make?*


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## Agnostic_Indian

We should avoid US unless there is no other choice.


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## Agnostic_Indian

We should avoid US Unless there is no other option.


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## Trisonics

sancho said:


> MKI is a good strike fighter too, but mainly for heavy strikes when air superiority is already achieved, or from distance with A2G missiles. To enter enemy air space in preemptive strike missions will be very difficult for it, because of the big RCS and the fact that our opponents now have AWACS support too. So imo, in the timeframe you pointed out, MKI should remain the workhorse in air superiority with the first Pak Fa / FGFA above it and a second day strike fighter if you want. MMRCA instead should take over the air defense roles of Mig 29 and M2k (which will be phased out by then too), but more over the strike role of Mk2 and Jags from 2015 onwards. Which means it should offer good A2G capabilities now and also enough potential for a long time in service. The F16IN would offer a good strike capability too, but I have big doubts about its future potential, so I agree Rafale and F18SH suits IAF at best.



MRCA's role primarily is for deterrence against the Chinese, in that regard, EF will play the role superbly well since they(the Chinese) already have more flankers and do not have anything to match EF in A2A combat(at least for now). However, that would be only in the short-term until the Pak Fa/FGFA is inducted. Considering the A2G role of EF will be improved, it does offer great advantages albeit with a large purchase price. If negotiations can get the price down EF would be my first choice.

My second option would be F-16 probably in numbers of 126 and further supplemented by f-35 with MKI playing the role of A2G fighters.

I'm all for Rafale or EF, big no for SH, a big yes for F-16 if it came with F-35s in later stages.


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## dbc

sancho said:


> This is an upgrade of the F18SH and will of course make it more useful for the future too, but we must have 2 things in mind here:
> 
> 1. USN have invested in the study for possible future upgrades, but not cleared them so far. Most of it will depend on F35, because they don't need most of these upgraded techs, if F35 will be available. The GE 414 EPE for example is offered for export customers and must be funded and developed first, but USN has shown no interest on funding this.
> 
> 
> 
> Boeing's Super Hornet seeks export sale to launch 20&#37; thrust upgrade
> 
> 
> 
> 2. The other upgrades as I said are good, but needed mainly to upgrade the older techs of the F18 design. Next-generation cockpit,
> Missile laser warning, Internal Infra-Red Search & Track (IRST), are lates standard and already availabe in most of the other fighters.
> 
> Here the actual F18SH cockpit, in comparison to Rafale and Mig 29K (which should be similar to Mig 35):
> 
> 
> As you can see some of these upgrades are mainly needed, just to make the F18SH comparable to the others.
> 
> 
> The rest of the upgrade is tricky imo, CFTs are a good idea and but I am not sure about these stealthy weapon pod. It's mainly for BVR and smaller A2G weapons, in very limited numbers, should increase *drag and manouverability is an issue with the F18SH anyway*. Don't know if it could reduce the RCS so far, that it really would give an advantage. The best would have been such CFTs with weapons bays like the F15SE, but they seems to be not possible for the F18.
> 
> So these upgrades are good, but who pays for them and what difference will they really make?



How do you know this? Have you ever flown a Super Hornet?


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## ARCHON




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## !!craft!!

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> How do you know this? Have you ever flown a Super Hornet?



come on lady give the guy some slack for posting such informative content!!


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## dbc

!!craft!! said:


> come on lady give the guy some slack for posting such *informative *content!!



its not informative its *speculative*.


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## anathema

From Shiv Arror ----

Livefist - The Best of Indian Defence: Gripen's 32-Page Supplement With Latest Edition Of INDIA TODAY Magazine

Damn these PR stunts --with every PR stunt--my decision making capability is affected.

I guess -- MRCA down selection is near !! The way these PR stuff is coming out...in a month or two -- we may get to hear whos in the race !


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## sancho

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> its not informative its *speculative*.



John P. Fielding, Introduction to Aircraft Design




> Figure 4.1 shows a plot of combat wing loading against thrust / weight ratio, *which is a good indication of the manoeuverability of the combat aircraft*...
> ...Recent requirements for high agility have moved aircraft towards the top left-hand corner *where high thrust / weight and low wing loading improve climb, sustained turn and attained turn performance.*



So: high T/W ratio + low wing load => better climb and turn rates = > better manoeuverability! 

But the F18SH offers exactly the opposite! It has one of the lowest T/W ratios and one of the highest wing loads of all contenders in the competition. It has no canards, or even TVC to increase manoeuverability in other ways, so compared to the other contenders in the competition, it has obviously issues in this field.

The F18SH is good in BVR and strikes, in WVR combats it depends on its techs and weapons, but can't point with flight performance.
But of course, from an US point this is speculative only!


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## sudhir007

Livefist - The Best of Indian Defence: Lockheed Pipes In: F-16IN Has Great Growth Prospects

The American teens are working overtime to battle deep perceptions that their wares -- the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and F-16IN Super Viper -- are essentially old aircraft (i.e. not modern) with a few new systems bunged in, and are basically platforms in the twilight of their operational lives, being replaced as they are with new assets by US forces. Boeing tried dealing with that perception a few days ago when it revealed that India was being offered something called the International Roadmap as part of the MMRCA competition. Arch-rival Lockheed-Martin articulated something similar recently, which they sent over. Posting it in full:

"While the Super Viper is a new design just for India, it is also the starting point for future growth. The F-16 has a well documented history of continuous evolution in capability. This is very important since the F-16IN is inherently designed for a long service life (in excess of 6500 flight hours). During this service life the desire will likely arise for significant upgradation to add capability for expanded mission roles, improved combat capability, and reduced operating costs. There are two primary enablers to this evolution: technology advancements and a proactive upgradation strategy.

Technology Advancements. The Super Viper is on the cutting edge of fighter aircraft technology with its 5th gen-based AESA radar, fiber optics data network, large flat panel color displays and the latest precision weapons. Starting now the Super Viper has inherent growth capacity due to ample unused space and large processing reserves. Nevertheless, emerging technologies will enable even greater capability. The history of technology advancement, especially for digital systems, shows that this added capability comes in increasingly smaller packages with lower power requirements. (Today&#8217;s mobile phone includes web browsing, games, and video in a smaller size than yesterday&#8217;s voice-only device.) The F-16 has demonstrated this many times across seven major block changes. This includes five generations of core avionics, five radar versions, ten different EW suites, and dozens of new weapons without changing the aircraft structure or size. To take advantage of these new technologies the Super Viper has a growth-oriented architecture for adding new systems and capabilities. Maximum use has been made of commercial standards and technology such as processing, software and networking.

Upgradation Strategy. The U.S. Air Force along with the European operators of the F-16 have been jointly executing a long term continuous upgradation strategy since the beginning of the F-16 program. As part of the overall sustainment philosophy, this strategy recognizes the need for continuous improvement and it defines a step-wise approach to keeping the F-16 on the forefront of war fighting capability. There are F-16s flying today in the U.S. and in Europe that are 30 years old but they have the same systems and capabilities as a new Block 50 F-16. At the heart of the strategy is a long term capability improvement roadmap which is synchronized with technology-driven improvements in weapons, sensors, displays, and computing. These key technology areas have their own improvement roadmaps which dovetail with the aircraft capability improvement roadmap. The roadmap is implemented through a series of software releases and hardware updates. For the U.S. and European Air Forces there is typically a major software release each 18 months. This allows for balance between rapid fielding of new capability and time required to assimilate the new capabilities into operational use. Major hardware updates are likewise spaced out to optimize fleet management while aircraft are being inducted into the modification program.

In summary, the growth potential for the Super Viper is much more than just the currently available spare capacity. Combining the latest technologies with a long term continuous upgradation strategy will keep the F-16IN relevant from the day it is first inducted until it is finally retired from service."


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## dbc

sancho said:


> John P. Fielding, Introduction to Aircraft Design
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So: high T/W ratio + low wing load => better climb and turn rates = > better manoeuverability!
> 
> But the F18SH offers exactly the opposite! It has one of the lowest T/W ratios and one of the highest wing loads of all contenders in the competition. It has no canards, or even TVC to increase manoeuverability in other ways, so compared to the other contenders in the competition, it has obviously issues in this field.
> 
> The F18SH is good in BVR and strikes, in WVR combats it depends on its techs and weapons, but can't point with flight performance.
> But of course, from an US point this is speculative only!



This is what the Federation of American Scientist have to say about the F-18. I'd go into details and explain why the F-18 has exceptional handling but it'd be a complete waste of my time since you are not man enough to admit you are wrong 




> The F/A-18 has a digital control-by-wire flight control system which provides excellent handling qualities, and allows pilots to learn to fly the airplane with relative ease. *At the same time, this system provides exceptional maneuverability and allows the pilot to concentrate on operating the weapons system. A solid thrust-to-weight ratio and superior turn characteristics combined with energy sustainability, enable the F/A-18 to hold its own against any adversary. The power to maintain evasive action is what many pilots consider the Hornet's finest trait.* In addition, the F/A-18 was also the Navy's first tactical jet aircraft to incorporate a digital, MUX bus architecture for the entire system's avionics suite. The benefit of this design feature is that the F/A-18 has been relatively easy to upgrade on a regular, affordable basis



Federation of American Scientists :: F/A-18 Hornet



> Unlimited angle-of-attack and carefree flying qualities for highly effective combat capability and ease of training.



Boeing: F/A-18E/F Super Hornet Home
Answer me this why is the Rafale's AoA limited by FLCS while the Super Hornets AoA isn't.


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## anathema

Typhoon during Farnborough air show !!! Note it is doing it full combat load...very impressive the way it takes of and climbs into air.

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## dbc

The F-18 holds the record for the quickest recovery from an out of control falling leaf maneuver. Typically the result of sustained high angle of attack, most aircrafts need atleast 10,000 ft to recover, here is HUD footage of an F-18 doing it in less than 4,000 ft. 






So to me its laughable when folks claim the F-18 lacks maneuverability.


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## sancho

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> This is what the Federation of American Scientist have to say about the F-18. I'd go into details and explain why the F-18 has exceptional handling but it'd be a complete waste of my time since you are not man enough to admit you are wrong .
> 
> The F/A-18 has a digital control-by-wire flight control system which provides excellent handling qualities, and allows pilots to learn to fly the airplane with relative ease. At the same time, this system provides exceptional maneuverability and allows the pilot to concentrate on operating the weapons system. A solid thrust-to-weight ratio and superior turn characteristics combined with energy sustainability, enable the F/A-18 to hold its own against any adversary. The power to maintain evasive action is what many pilots consider *the Hornet's* finest trait.



Actually it is said, but I expected exactly this! I really liked your posts in the past, because they were often were very informative, but the recent discussions that we had showed me, that you are biased towards US arms and techs!

The part that you quoted and that I expected, is talking about the F18 *Hornet*, not the Super Hornet that is offered in MMRCA!
The Hornet has a T/W above 1 unlike the Super Hornet, as well as a lower wing load and as I showed you in my last post, that improves climb and turn rates, so manoeuverability.
So even the older F18 Hornet versions are more manoeuverable than the actual Super Hornet, let alone new fighter designs like the EF, or Rafale for example.
All you proved is, that you again claim wrong things and keep on with them, while completely ignoring the points I made in my posts, so a furhter discussion really makes no sence. 
The fact remains, the F18 *Super Hornet* has one of the lowest T/W ratios and one of the highest wing loads in the competition!


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## dbc

sancho said:


> Actually it is said, but I expected exactly this! I really liked your posts in the past, because they were often were very informative, but the recent discussions that we had showed me, that you are biased towards US arms and techs!
> 
> The part that you quoted and that I expected, is talking about the F18 *Hornet*, not the Super Hornet that is offered in MMRCA!
> The Hornet has a T/W above 1 unlike the Super Hornet, as well as a lower wing load and as I showed you in my last post, that improves climb and turn rates, so manoeuverability.
> So even the older F18 Hornet versions are more manoeuverable than the actual Super Hornet, let alone new fighter designs like the EF, or Rafale for example.
> All you proved is, that you again claim wrong things and keep on with them, while completely ignoring the points I made in my posts, so a furhter discussion really makes no sence.
> The fact remains, the F18 *Super Hornet* has one of the lowest T/W ratios and one of the highest wing loads in the competition!




It's extremely amusing you think the Hornet's capabilities diminished and the Super Hornet is less maneuverable than the original Hornet.
I guess we really screwed up by calling it "*Super* Hornet"



sancho said:


> The F18SH is good in BVR and strikes, in WVR combats it depends on its techs and weapons, *but can't point with flight performance.*



Go on sir I have no wish to cure you of your ignorance.
For the rest, here is an article published by Flight International. This should debunk the poor maneuverability nonsense some members have been peddling.



> Extraordinary at high AOA
> At M0.84, we climbed at an average rate of 12,500ft/min, and quickly reached an altitude of 25,000ft over Death Valley. Once level, I pulled the throttles to idle to set up for slow flight. At 260kt indicated, I selected "speedbrake" to aid deceleration. Unlike most aircraft, the Super Hornet does not have a dedicated speedbrake. The speedbrake function is performed by deflection of various control surfaces, including spoilers and ailerons.
> Although the system does not actively seek a constant deceleration rate, selected control surfaces are deflected more as airspeed decreases and hinge moment loads decrease. I found speedbrake operation to be totally transparent, at no time causing more than a slight variation in pitch attitude.
> Speedbrake deselected, we slowed down in level flight. Light airframe buffet was present at 17&#176; AoA (130kt), but was gone as AoA increased past 25&#176;. At 30&#176; AoA, I selected military power and captured 35&#176; AoA. I was able to control AoA to within 1&#176; as we descended wings level at 6,000ft/min and 105kt indicated. I put in partial right rudder, and the aircraft smoothly entered a 30&#176; banked turn. After a 60 &#176; heading change, I released the rudder and reversed the turn direction using left lateral stick - I hesitate to say "aileron", because the E/F's flight control system (FCS) can use a number of different surfaces to perform the "aileron" function. I found control responsiveness in all three axes (pitch, roll and yaw) to be excellent, with no wing rock or yaw wandering tendencies.
> With wings level, in an effort to demonstrate the E/F's resistance to departure from controlled flight, I simultaneously put in full right lateral stick and full left rudder. This abrupt cross-control input had no discernible effect, the aircraft remained rock steady at 35&#176; AoA.
> Next, I reduced the AoA to 30&#176;, with the aircraft in a 25&#176; nose-high pitch attitude. I rapidly pulled the stick to the full aft stop and held it there. The aircraft pitched to 45&#176; nose up, an increase of 20&#176; from the stabilised value, as the AoA peaked at 59&#176;. This large pitch reserve, available at such a low airspeed, will be useful should the Super Hornet pilot find himself in a close-range visual fight.
> The aircraft stabilised wings level at 48&#176; AoA and 70kt indicated, in a full aft stick stall. Aircraft heading tended to oscillate &#177;3&#176; from the steady heading at about 2Hz. Seeking to prevent a departure in the yaw axis, the FCS actively uses yaw rate feedback to keep the aircraft pointing forward. One benefit of this control scheme has been the elimination of the "falling leaf" departure mode present in the basic Hornet.
> A full left rudder input rolled the aircraft into a 45&#176; banked turn, with AoA stabilised at 45&#176;. A stabilised yaw rate of 6.25&#176;/s was attained, and I was able to control aircraft heading accurately. After levelling the wings, I moved the stick to the full forward stop to recover from the stall. The aircraft pitched over to 40&#176; nose low at an impressive rate of 17&#176;/s.
> Next, we performed a full forward stick inverted stall. As was the case with the aft stick stall, the aircraft was extremely stable, attaining a steady state AoA of -32&#176; at -1g.
> The final high AoA manoeuvre we performed was a vertical recovery. A military power 4g pull to a vertical attitude started the event. Heading straight up at 100kt indicated, I selected maximum power. At this extreme condition, the digitally controlled engines, which have no pilot-observed limits, responded by smoothly lighting both afterburners. I started the recovery by pulling aft stick to bring the nose toward the horizon. The nose tracked smoothly downward, and I released the stick when the aircraft was in an inverted, 20&#176; nose-low attitude. Without any pilot inputs, the aircraft slowly rolled upright and stabilised in a wings level 30&#176; dive. It was as if the Super Hornet knew how to complete a recovery from an extremely low-speed vertical attitude.
> Pirouette manoeuvre
> Finally, we performed a pirouette manoeuvre. This is essentially the Hornet equivalent of a hammerhead turn - a slow-speed, nose-high to nose-low, yaw rate turn in the near-vertical plane. When first developed, the E/F was unable to perform this stock Hornet manoeuvre, but modifications to the yaw rate feedback schedule put this back into the repertoire.
> In military power, I started the manoeuvre at 210kt and 13,000ft altitude by pulling the nose up. At 150kt in a 65&#176; nose high attitude, using slight aft stick pressure to keep the AoA above 25&#176;, I put in full left rudder and left lateral stick. To my amazement, the aircraft yawed smoothly 180&#176; to the left, ending up in a nose-low attitude on a reciprocal heading. Recovery to level flight and 200kt completed the manoeuvre. The entire operation took less than 25s, yielding a turn rate of about 8&#176;/s.
> Area work complete, we turned to the west for our recovery to Lemoore. Flight control laws limit maximum roll rate to 225&#176;/s in an air-to-air configuration, and 150&#176;/s with wing-mounted fuel tanks or air-to-ground munitions. At 15,000ft, I performed full lateral stick rolls at 240kt and 360kt indicated. At both speeds, a 360&#176; roll was complete in less than 2s.
> 
> During our cruise home, I was able to reflect on the Super Hornet's manoeuvrability. The second leading cause of Hornet losses in the US Navy has been departure from controlled flight. At all conditions, the flight control system had allowed me to manoeuvre the aircraft predictably without regard to airspeed or AoA. The Super Hornet's demonstrated departure resistance is exactly what "carefree" manoeuvrability is all about.




Extreme manoeuvres-11/07/2000-Flight International


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## satishkumarcsc

DBC...what engine was used in the aircraft?..was it the same Ge 414 or the GE 414 EPE engine?....


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## dbc

satishkumarcsc said:


> DBC...what engine was used in the aircraft?..was it the same Ge 414 or the GE 414 EPE engine?....



F414-GE-400

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## Markus

MMRCA RUMOUR: MiG-35 Out, Details Tomorrow

Livefist - The Best of Indian Defence: MMRCA RUMOUR: MiG-35 Out, Details Tomorrow


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## marcos98

*Nose section of the Gripen NG on display, with the IRST Skyward Selex AESA radar and ES-05 Raven.*

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## CONNAN

*MMRCA BUZZ: MiG-35 Was Never In The Running?*

Livefist - The Best of Indian Defence

Quick disclaimer: with nothing official on the MMRCA competition available from the Indian government -- at one level, rightly so -- the only available information is hearsay. And I don't think debate about rumours is going to ever affect a professionally managed competition. This is a pot that stirs itself. It could be bang on, it could be totally off. I'm hoping everyone will look at the assertions on their own merit. These are bits of conversations with officers, ex-Chiefs etc over the last few weeks strung together. Ok, let's get down to it.

The overriding sense I get from my sources is this: It is not a question of what chance the MiG-35 has in the MMRCA sweepstakes but whether the MiG-35 ever had a chance in the first place. From the start, it turns out, both the MoD and a controlling section of the IAF have agreed on one crucial thing -- the next aircraft the IAF operated would need to be a truly modern platform that "broke the mould". That was to be the starting point of everything that followed. The IAF's next aircraft needed to be a top-of-the-line aircraft that broke out from the old mould and signalled new things for India in every possible sense: technology, diplomacy, security cooperation, political opportunity, military interoperability, logistical exchange and economics.

As late as mid-2006, a time when there was a breathless guessing game about precisely when the Indian MoD would send out its MMRCA RFP, there were apparently quiet discussions on over whether Moscow could be brought on board and persuaded to stay out of the proposed MMRCA competition. It was suggested that this be made possible through interactions at the highest levels, but first the MoD and IAF needed to figure the feasibility of such a proposal. It is said that the Russian Ambassador to New Delhi at the time was called in for an unofficial discussion on the highly controversial possibility of Russia actually being kept out of the sweepstakes. He was accompanied by Russia's Air Attache. As the IAF expected, the Russian envoy was incredulous. He said there was no way on earth his Russian bosses would ever be persuaded to agree to that. Obviously. A year before, in February 2005, Russia had sent a MiG-29M/M2 MRCA to AeroIndia 05. For AeroIndia 07, MiG pulled out all the stops. A month before that in January 2007 was an important event -- India and Russia finally formalised their joint fifth generation aircraft plan, though actual agreements came later.

In February 2007, the "MiG-35" (actually the MiG-29M2 No. 154, a 17-year-old airframe with blue-painted fins) was officially unveiled to the world at AeroIndia 07 at the IAF's Yelahanka base. Coupled with the bright red and blue thrust-vectored MiG-29OVT, the two aircraft put up a deeply memorable show. But IAF officers who had a chance to check out the aircraft came away very unimpressed. "It is an old aircraft with a few MFDs," one of them said at the time. At the time, it indeed was, but Russia had said it was merely a proof-of-concept platform that would be evolved into a formidable new Fulcrum.

Six months later, on August 28, 2007 -- two days after the MAKS 2007 air show at Zhukovsky (see photo, me and MiG's Stanislav Gorbunov after our sortie) -- the Indian government finally and belatedly issued its long-awaited RFP to six vendors, 211 pages long and delayed ostensibly by the offets and selection model sections. This probably means nothing, but in all MoD and official acquisition council papers concerning the MMRCA competition since the RFP, the MiG-35 is first in the list of six competitors. As a matter of record, the official order of the remaining competitors is Gripen, F-16, F/A-18, Typhoon, Rafale. A senior IAF officer who was part of a delegation to MAKS 2007 met UAC boss Alexei Fedorov on August 22-23, 2007, and is understood to have had a very "frank chat". Fedorov was told that the Indian government was willing to consider the MiG-35, though its chances were slim, considering the three explicit guiding principals of the selection process, and the two unspoken ones (more on these later). Fedorov is understood to have said that the Russian government was fully aware of the "winds of change" in New Delhi, but was confident that MiG would put up a good fight, politically too.

On a political level, it was conveyed to the Russians that the flagship Russian airplane, the Su-30, was being patronized extensively by India (plans were afoot already then to up orders), and that the MiG-35 was hardly a platform the Russian Air Force itself was interested in.

On March 7, 2008, the Indian government, after prolonged cost negotiations, finally concluded a $964.1-million contract to upgrade the IAF's entire fleet of over 60 MiG-29s (the Indian phase of the upgrade began in June this year). Shortly thereafter, on April 28, 2008, RAC-MiG/Rosoboronexport submitted an MMRCA technical bid for the MiG-35/35D to the MoD, offering a Fulcrum with an improved airframe, new generation avionics and an AESA radar, the Phazotron Zhuk-AE.

In October-December 2008, during evaluations of the MMRCA technical bids, two Russian MiG-29s crashed after critical structural failures of their fins, forcing the Russian Air Force to ground its entire fleet shortly thereafter. Coming as the accidents did so soon after the upgrade contract was concluded, the IAF generated a query, routed through the Russian Air Attache, asking for a full brief on the accidents on why the Russians had been forced to ground their entire fleet. In April 2009, Russia responded, saying there were structural faults in the MiG-29 platform, and that the accidents had been caused as a result of structural failure of the aircraft's fin root ribs. Significantly, the Russians conveyed that a specific "repair scheme" would be included in the March 2008 upgrade manifest. The IAF, however, demanded to know what immediate checks needed to be carried out and requested full accident reports. These were provided. The Russians grounding their entire Fulcrum fleet created a huge stir. Sections of the MoD/IAF debated the possibility of manipulating the entire issue to somehow put the MiG-35 out of the reckoning, but nothing whatsoever in the RFP terms would allow it. Also, by this time, the "guiding principles" as expounded by the MoD had begun to echo like a mantra.

The explicit principles -- first, the IAF's operational needs should be fulfilled. Two, the selection process needed to be competitive and transparent, and finally, that the competition would lead to a legacy leap for Indian industrial capabilities. The unspoken principles -- first, the competition should provide robust leverage to India's multifarious 21st Century political aspirations. And second, as previously stated, the competition needs to break old moulds in every sense to create strategic space for other partnerships.

A former IAF chief, who served during a crucial phase of the MMRCA planning, admits that the competition is a political opportunity that incidentally gives the Indian Air Force a chunky stop-gap to tide over legacy jet phase-outs and delays in the Tejas -- not the other way round. "You can argue ad nauseum about sanctioned strength and squadron strength. The fact is the IAF's requirement is not only much simpler, but much smaller too. As long as the pilots get a top-of-the-line airplane, nobody is complaining. Let the politicians do the politics. That is their job," he says, adding, "The IAF's requirements for a fresh batch of medium fighter jets came at a time when our strategic aspirations were in a state of great flux. It will be an enabler in many ways."

In March 2010, around the time the crucial MMRCA field evaluation trials were winding down, the Indian government exercised options and signed up for 29 additional MiG-29K/KUB shipborne fighters for the Navy at a cost of $1.46-billion, taking its total order to 45 planes. In other words, since the time the IAF first approached the government with a requirement for a quick induction of medium fighters (it wanted to quickly contract for 60-70 more Mirage-2000s at he time), the Indian government has pumped approximately $3.5-billion into procuring MiG-29 platforms or platform related services.

The maximum I could squeeze out from informed sources about the MiG-35's performance in the field evaluation trials is that the platform achieved "average compliance". Areas of poor compliance are said to have occured at the Leh leg, avionics exploitation and PGM delivery routines in Russia. The IAF are also said to have been fairly unimpressed with what the Russians had managed to achieve with the aircraft since they first saw it in February 2007. If the MiG-35's performance was average in the trials, they know about it, since the IAF trial team briefed every contending team about their horse's performance after trials concluded.

The Indian government remains utterly unconvinced of Russia's ability to provide any meaningful industrial package to India as a mandatory part of the MMRCA. The India-Russia relationship is anything but new -- it stretches back 47 years. India has learnt much from Russia, and has been provided the opportunity to cookie-cut airplanes through decades. But when it comes to meaningful industrial collaboration, the Indian government feels the Russians are better at selling and license building, rather than true blue industrial cooperation.

"It is not as though they have not had a chance to deepen their relationship with us industrially. Nobody knows the Indian industrial capability better than the Russians. They have exploited our weaknesses to the hilt for over four decades. But even then their industrial base is in tatters. In my opinion, whatever we can ever get from the Russians, we have already got or are soon to get. To expect anything more is unreasonable," says a former IAF Chief. Apparently, the Indian government also doesn't believe the Russians have anything to offer over and above what the Indians are already signing up for -- the fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) will be an ostensibly joint effort.

While the initial MiG-29K deal was too good not to go for (at least in 2004!) and the upgrade was something the IAF could postpone but not sidestep, sources say the government has very low confidence in the industrial health of MiG Corporation, tottering as it apparently is from airframe to airframe. Russia's inability to stick to delivery timeframes, especially for MiG Corp, is another spoiler.

On a final note, the path taken by the MiG-35 so far in the MMRCA competition needs to be seen in the light of the unspoken guiding principles and what the IAF and MoD originally wanted to persuade the Russians about. I've put this post up now, but will be adding more to it over the next couple of days.


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## anathema

^^ not again .....


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## karan.1970

anathema said:


> ^^ not again .....



This will keep on going again and again, till the MoD babus have mercy on us and announce the decision. After that also, you never know if CAG will announce some irregularity and the whole thing will start again. Analysis Paralysis in its full glory


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## anathema

karan.1970 said:


> This will keep on going again and again, till the MoD babus have mercy on us and announce the decision. After that also, you never know if CAG will announce some irregularity and the whole thing will start again. *Analysis Paralysis in its full glory*



Yeah true...anyways.. babu's and mercy doesnt go together....I just hope that Babu's dont place their interest's over nation's/IAF's interests.

Can we get the information by filing RTI ?  ... Damn...where is tehelka when we need them .... bloody they should have conducted some snooping missions...

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## roach

Looks like it's going to be a European aircraft this time- that's a good thing, The Jaguar and the Mirage 2000 have proven to be dependable and efficient platforms.


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## karan.1970

^ all of them are good planes. MoD should get on with it and buy one. Its less than $ 2 billion per annum outflow over next 7 years. Get it over with already..


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## Dash

Please dont blame Indian government.

*Ajai Shukla and Shiv Aroor are the real culprits *

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## anathema

Dash said:


> Please dont blame Indian government.
> 
> *Ajai Shukla and Shiv Aroor are the real culprits *



If 'shook law' and 'error' are culprits then GoI is the godfather !!

MRCA drama years in the making...gun tender ...i think by the time artillery guns are ordered the concept of artillery will be outdated...there are many more such examples of government and its institutions...

Shukla and arror are saints when compared to them...


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## SpArK

*India Discussing Offsets With Fighter*

By admin at 22 August, 2010, 2:18 am

BY: AVIATION WEEK

Following the Indian air force&#8217;s flight evaluation of six Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) candidates, the Indian government is now considering technical offset proposals and beginning discussions with the prospective vendors.

The Lockheed Martin F-16IN, Boeing F/A-18, Dassault Rafale, EADS Eurofighter Typhoon, Saab Gripen and Russian MiG-35 are in the running for the 126-aircraft program.

*A European contender* was invited to the Indian air force&#8217;s head office on *Aug. 20* to discuss the flight evaluation and has been invited to the defense ministry to present its offset proposal. *The vendor&#8217;s team includes all partners associated with the bid, including the airframe manufacturer, weapons suppliers, avionics and engine makers.*

The second part of the proposal &#8212; commercial offsets &#8212; is expected to be opened by April 2011.

*&#8220;Those that make it to the downselect will be evaluated on the technical report, compliance with transfer of technology and with offsets,&#8221;* a senior official said.

&#8220;Everything depends on the *supply chain*,&#8221; an official involved in the flight evaluations said. &#8220;The air force is also aware that it requires good management systems and an auto-diagnostic capability.&#8221;

&#8220;India needs to pit the lowest bidder against the second lowest bidder &#8212; a practice it tends not to follow &#8212; to get the best deal,&#8221; another official noted. &#8220;[There] is no point in deciding on a finalist and beating him further down to size.&#8221;

*Given the challenges of life-cycle costs, India has made it clear that maintenance support will be essential to the offer.*


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## SpArK

*A very Hilarious observation.*



*No 1:Gripen.*

The US has banned this filly from using an Israeli AESA radar,to keep its blinkers from being equal to or better than that of the F-18SH's (which seems to be the preferred choice for the US for India).Unless there is a setback to the LCA breeding programme,the Gripen is at the start of the race trotting at the tail end of the field,as though it would be perhaps cheaper than the others,it would mean acquiring a new aircraft and breeding tech.The SAAB stud farm also suffers from a major setback,the lack of a strong jockey,meaning a political powerhouse,who can steer the horse through the bunch at the finish.In this respect,the US,Russia and the French probably have the best jockeys.



*N0 2:F-16 Falcon.*

This famous gelding ,rather long in the tooth,has been racing for three decades now and has in the past won many a trophy.But it is handicapped by its age and the fact that our rival stable to our west,wearing green colours,has a horse from the same breeder and the same parents.Therefore,it is highly unlikely that we will want the equivalent of two Ambassador cars trying to race each other across Howrah Bridge (hilarious to behold),a task in which neither can defeat the other! In addition,the gelding is accused of quietly stealing secret measurements of the course from the clubhouse,infuriating its rivals especially the French,who want it disqualified or to run with a high handicap,The F-16 is slightly behind the Gripen at this stage of the race,gamely bringing up the rear.



*No 3:MIG-35.*

This Russian stallion from the famous MIG bureau,has in its early Coltish days got the better in sprint exercises of the American gelding above,especially those animals in German colours.It dances in the air like a Nuryev or Nijinsky.The animal,has been fed on some 100 proof vodka and now is unequalled in the sprint,thanks to its TVC tail,which can swish in any direction,able to swat flies tous azimuths ! Its former farting problems have been resolved with a better diet and since Indian jockeys have ridden its younger brother before and are breeding the same,buying more for the IN too,should make it one of the hot favourites.In addition,it has a splendid Russian jockey,the very same one who rode the SU-30MKI into IAF colours,who knows Indian Race Clubs and their stewards very well,should it all come down to a photo-finish.Acquriing this supersonic sprinter should be the cheapest option for the IAF,especially as a nuclear fuelled fish has just been launched with Russian breeding expertise and another Russian bred fish is due later this year for the IN.However,there is a handicap factor going against this fancy from winning,its blinkers capability and in that the IAF already have that incomporable undefeated stallion,the SU-30MKI Flanker in its stable and are going to breed an even finer stealthy sprinter called the PAK-FA ,of 5th-genetic strain,from the Sukhoi stud farm.The IAF's stable might like to indulge in some cross-breeding by acquiring a European or western genetic strain of horseflesh to avoid too much of in-breeding.It's well placed for the final sprint,just behind the leaders.



*No 4:F-18 Super Hornet.*

This expensive American pony has had as long an innings as the F-16 and the animal has been given massive doses of steroids to keep it racing like the late Flo-Jo.However,its long innings is coming to a close as owners like Oz do not want to buy any more from this family.Most of America's allies who race this beast are lusting after another young foal called the JSF F-35,plus this nag comes in at a very expensive price for its age and has no future for breeding.American breeders are trying their best to sell this pony with warpaint,claiming that their nag is favourite of western jockeys and has the best long-distance eyesight thanks to AESA blinkers.All the other animals in the race claim that they too have the same kind of blinkers,though of different make.However,the US had a smart jockey earlier called Bush,who saw to it that the supply of nuclear fodder was dependent upon India buying a US animal! The White House stud farm,under new Black management,will do its best to keep the deal from unravelling,and sent an experienced female jockey called Clinton to give it the whip.Unhappy Congressmen however are trying to put new conditions upon the supply of nuclear fodder and also dictate to India the specified courses where the animal can run and where it cannot.It also wants the right to inspect the animal wherever it is running and even during a race,to see if its testicles are not being used clandestinely for stud purposes!This to many in India is unacceptable,as it might prove impossible to entertain especially during a race againt mortal rival Pakistan.India is however willing to allow semen samples to be sent outside its stables for testing.It is this factor,that nuclear fodder ,other saddle-room spares and breeding technology might be witheld by America,especially if we test radio-active fodder again.Some insiders say that despite these handicaps,the stewards have been made an offer they cannot refuse.Watch this pony's progress carefully keeping in mind that old axiom,Money makes the mare go!
Leading the pack at the moment,but can it remain first at the finish?



*No 5:Rafale.*

This fine French filly is a raring to go anywhere and has great capability for the future.It can cavort across any course like a Moulin Rouge dancer and has a perfectly shaped body with superbly shaped boobs,lovely smooth legs and underbelly and an inviting behind.Having enjoyed the pleasure of riding iits older sister,the Mirage-2000,which has satisfied IAF jockeys for years,this animal should in fact be the hot favourite,but in typical French fashion,the horse entered the stalls facing in the opposite direction as they run so on French courses and was about to be disqualified to the delight of the Americans.The small made French jockey,Sarko,light in the saddle,came to its rescue and used Dassault's great influence with the stewards to allow it to continue in the race.The chief handicap of this splendid filly is that like all fine French wares,it is an expensive acquisition, and has not won any races outside Longchamp.It was unduly handicapped the French claim,thanks to some pulling,doping and opening the gates last at the start,due to American stable owners when running on pro-American courses in the Far East.Since the IAF jockeys have a taste for fine French fillies,this filly is in with a great chance.

The filly is running just behind the leaders ahead of the MIG-35


*No 5:EADS Typhoon,*

This fine stallion is a cross-breed genetically,of the best of non-French European traditions.It is racing for several European nations,especially in the colours of British and German stables.Both a powerful sprinter and endued with great stamina,this European animal has the advantage that its breeder,EADS,has already won a race for a breeding contract for the LCA Tejas programme,as the animal lacks both power and stamina and needs careful breeding programme.EADS is willing to provide both breeding tech and the right fodder machine (EJ-200) to make the LCA filly go.The breeders also claim that this stallion can compare favourably with the king of the course,the Flanker SU-30 MKI in the IAF's stables.Running juast behind the leader,the SH.

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## gowthamraj

Hilarious
observation

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## aanshu001

@ benny: mast comment boss, relay liked it.....


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## British_Bangladeshi

MiG-35 , Cheapest yet the most effective! don't you guys agree?


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## SpArK

British_Bangladeshi said:


> MiG-35 , Cheapest yet the most effective! don't you guys agree?



Nope ... 

Since we have Mig-29s


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## Devianz

Benny,
That was hilarious.


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## redpearl75

Benny, no doubt that was one of the best comments I've ever come across out here... Well, BB Migs are not supposed to be the best and the cheapest as we already operate Mig 29 that are going to get upgraded to the SMT standards and we are in the procedure of getting the new Mig 29Ks for the carrier fleet... No point in going for the 35s as I believe that this time the money doesn't matter but the offer does and for what I know the best deal would be the Dassault Rafale/Gripen or the EFT as they offer the state of the art package... FA 18E/F and F16 IN might be great but are aging and has less to get upgraded in the future.. IAF is looking for this procurement as the greatest of all as these fighters will be serving the force for another 30 years or so....


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## soaringphnx

BENNY said:


> *Given the challenges of life-cycle costs, India has made it clear that maintenance support will be essential to the offer.*



So Dassault better stop arm-twisting the IAF if they want a shot at this contract! Rafale is without a doubt a good choice for the IAF, but if the French continue being as pricy as they are (Mirage spares and upgrade), the deal may go to F-18SH or other contenders.


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## Leonidas

Benny, you forgot to mention the 'odds.'


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## SpArK

Coming Up: MMRCA BUZZ -- Why The IAF Is Nervous About The Americans






Livefist - The Best of Indian Defence: Coming Up: MMRCA BUZZ -- Why The IAF Is Nervous About The Americans

*A new short fictional short story written again by Shiv Aroor*


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## Dash

BENNY said:


> Coming Up: MMRCA BUZZ -- Why The IAF Is Nervous About The Americans
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Livefist - The Best of Indian Defence: Coming Up: MMRCA BUZZ -- Why The IAF Is Nervous About The Americans
> 
> *A new short fictional short story written again by Shiv Aroor*


This guy will never stop creating sensation!....any way he provides food for our kind of defense forums.


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## anathema

BENNY said:


> Coming Up: MMRCA BUZZ -- Why The IAF Is Nervous About The Americans
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Livefist - The Best of Indian Defence: Coming Up: MMRCA BUZZ -- Why The IAF Is Nervous About The Americans
> 
> *A new short fictional short story written again by Shiv Aroor*



Yaar koi *supari nikalo Arror and Mohotarma ke upar* !!! I for one had enough of those clones ...


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## RPK

*BAE presses technology-transfer track record in Indian Typhoon campaign*

"Enthusiastic support" for the Indian government's 50&#37; offset target and technology transfer ambitions are a cornerstone of the Eurofighter consortium's bid for India's $12 billion, 126-aircraft medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) competition, says BAE Systems.

Alan Garwood, business director of BAE - which along with Alenia Aeronautica and EADS is pitching the Typhoon for the MMRCA deal - says the consortium's preparedness to meet India's stipulations on technology transfer "absolutely distinguish" its bid. 

BAE Systems, he notes, has had a presence in India "for some 50-60 years" and, with partners, has built "around 1,000 aircraft" there, a track record he considers "unique among the competitors".



&#169; Eurofighter 


Garwood declares himself "very pleased" with the performance of the Typhoon in flying evaluations, while acknowledging that "it's what the Indian air force think that counts". Declining to speculate on the likely timescale for a decision by the air force, he notes: "They're playing this as an absolutely straight-bat competition."

The Typhoon is up against the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Dassault Rafale, Lockheed Martin F-16, RSK MiG-35 and Saab Gripen NG for the Indian contract.

The Typhoon is also participating in a Japanese fighter competition geared toward sourcing 40-50 aircraft to replace McDonnell Douglas F-4s. Its Japanese campaign is led jointly by Alenia and BAE Systems, and Garwood considers it to have "a very good chance" of success, again citing the consortium's willingness to transfer technology. Competition for Japan's business will come from the F/A-18.

In a bid to boost BAE Systems' Japanese prospects, Tony Ennis was appointed to serve as its president of north-east Asia from a base in Tokyo. He took up the position on 1 January.

The company will shortly host an event aimed at showcasing its technological innovations to the Japanese market.

On the Typhoon's prospects in Oman, BAE Systems comments: "The UK government announced Oman's intention to procure Eurofighter Typhoon earlier this year, and BAE Systems is continuing to work closely with both governments to reach agreement for the supply of this new-generation fighter to meet Oman's national defence needs for the next 20-30 years."

Typhoon business is also being sought in Romania, Turkey and Qatar, and the type will be offered to Switzerland should that nation's mooted fighter contest proceed.

Garwood says BAE Systems has received "an unprecedented level of prime ministerial support" from the UK since David Cameron took office in May, and notes a generally "increased tempo to the government's support" since the Cameron-led coalition formed.

"The coalition wants to get the country out of recession and they see manufacturing and exporting as a way to do it," asserts Garwood. "With the level of government support we're getting now, I'm very confident we'll get a lot more success over the next few years."


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## fatman17

*India plays down reports of MMRCA decision *

10-Aug-2010 JDIN 

The official spokesman of the Indian Ministry of Defence (MoD) has downplayed media reports that France's Dassault Rafale and the Eurofighter Typhoon have emerged as...


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## Dash

> Garwood declares himself "very pleased" with the performance of the Typhoon in flying evaluations, while acknowledging that "it's what the Indian air force think that counts". Declining to speculate on the likely timescale for a decision by the air force, he notes: "They're playing this as an absolutely straight-bat competition."



What does he mean by straight bat competition. Its not straight bat at all.
I think he is over confident here about Typhoon's victory...


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## CONNAN

BAE presses technology-transfer track record in Indian Typhoon campaign

By Niall OKeeffe

"Enthusiastic support" for the Indian government's 50% offset target and technology transfer ambitions are a cornerstone of the Eurofighter consortium's bid for India's $12 billion, 126-aircraft medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) competition, says BAE Systems.
Alan Garwood, business director of BAE - which along with Alenia Aeronautica and EADS is pitching the Typhoon for the MMRCA deal - says the consortium's preparedness to meet India's stipulations on technology transfer "absolutely distinguish" its bid.
BAE Systems, he notes, has had a presence in India "for some 50-60 years" and, with partners, has built "around 1,000 aircraft" there, a track record he considers "unique among the competitors".

Garwood declares himself "very pleased" with the performance of the Typhoon in flying evaluations, while acknowledging that "it's what the Indian air force think that counts". Declining to speculate on the likely timescale for a decision by the air force, he notes: "They're playing this as an absolutely straight-bat competition."
The Typhoon is up against the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Dassault Rafale, Lockheed Martin F-16, RSK MiG-35 and Saab Gripen NG for the Indian contract.
The Typhoon is also participating in a Japanese fighter competition geared toward sourcing 40-50 aircraft to replace McDonnell Douglas F-4s. Its Japanese campaign is led jointly by Alenia and BAE Systems, and Garwood considers it to have "a very good chance" of success, again citing the consortium's willingness to transfer technology. Competition for Japan's business will come from the F/A-18.
In a bid to boost BAE Systems' Japanese prospects, Tony Ennis was appointed to serve as its president of north-east Asia from a base in Tokyo. He took up the position on 1 January.
The company will shortly host an event aimed at showcasing its technological innovations to the Japanese market.
On the Typhoon's prospects in Oman, BAE Systems comments: "The UK government announced Oman's intention to procure Eurofighter Typhoon earlier this year, and BAE Systems is continuing to work closely with both governments to reach agreement for the supply of this new-generation fighter to meet Oman's national defence needs for the next 20-30 years."
Typhoon business is also being sought in Romania, Turkey and Qatar, and the type will be offered to Switzerland should that nation's mooted fighter contest proceed.
Garwood says BAE Systems has received "an unprecedented level of prime ministerial support" from the UK since David Cameron took office in May, and notes a generally "increased tempo to the government's support" since the Cameron-led coalition formed.
"The coalition wants to get the country out of recession and they see manufacturing and exporting as a way to do it," asserts Garwood. "With the level of government support we're getting now, I'm very confident we'll get a lot more success over the next few years."


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## sudhir007

Well it has been a few weeks after Times Now reported that IAF wants either the the Rafale or the Typhoon and since than neither the IAF or the Ministry of Defense has said anything about it. Well we all have been expecting something to come out after IAF submitted it technical evaluation report a month back but it seems we will not be informed by them.
Another surprising thing is that the Indian media is not issuing unanimous reports, Aviation week and other sources have reported that Rafale and Typhoon are "not" in the game where as Shiv Aroor is saying that the MiG-35 was probably never in the competition. Nothing seems to make sense as all these might be just rumors and after all the unprofessional Indian media lives and thrives on rumors and sensationalism. In such times the best thing to do is to read what a foreign media says. Janes, a respected military information source reported that India has made no decision and so far no fighter have been down selected. Almost all the suppliers have denied that their fighters have been kicked out of the competition except the United Aircraft Corporation of Russia with its MiG-35. It seems like everyone has written off the MiG-35 off the competition and its not just the Indian media but also the Russian media. I do tend to believe this because IAF and the MoD clearly don't want anything Russian because of many reasons which I would not like to mention now.
All theses rumors could could be sponsored ones, for instance it could be the IAF which would have written the Times Now article as they know that Rafale and Typhoon are the best but really expensive and Finance ministry could not allow it like the Tanker deal. The rumors could also be sponsored by manufactures which is not quite uncommon. We won't know the any of that and going further into it would creating another rumor.
However thing which are confirmed are that the Flight evaluation tests were meant to study some "643 test points" which were send to the MoD in tabular format. The Transfer of technology, maintenance and diagnostics are other critical factors along with life cycle cost.Also the IAF clearly wants new technology with the fighters. The final selection announcement will be made in 10-11 months and the deal will be for 126 fighter with a option of 74 more.

Angle of Attack: The MMRCA Mess !


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## British_Bangladeshi

Go for the Eurofighter because its British, don't go for the Rafale because its french


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## kish

sudhir007 said:


> I do tend to believe this because IAF and the MoD clearly don't want anything Russian because of *many reasons* which I would not like to mention now.




Then why is new order of 42 sukhoi placed and also devoloping pak fa/fgfa with russia 
So please metion ur *many reasons*.
thanks in advance


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## Bhairava

kish said:


> Then why is new order of 42 sukhoi placed and also devoloping pak fa/fgfa with russia
> So please metion ur *many reasons*.
> thanks in advance



He was implying that MoD doesnt want anything Russian *in the context of the MMRCA tender*.or for that matter he was simply referring to the Fulcrum.

It was not on an overall basis and that is exactly why we are ordering extra Flankers - a soft way of saying "sorry we dont want the Fulcrums".

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## kish

Gounder said:


> He was implying that MoD doesnt want anything Russian *in the context of the MMRCA tender*.or for that matter he was simply referring to the Fulcrum.
> 
> It was not on an overall basis and that is exactly why we are ordering extra Flankers - a soft way of saying "sorry we dont want the Fulcrums".



i thought he was talking about whole Russian products. i still dont know much about capabilities of mig 35 so cant comment on this. 
anyway *thanks*


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## jha

*India Rules Out Integration of BrahMos Missile on MMRCA *

The high-profile &#8220;medium multi-role combat aircraft&#8221; (MMRCA), 126 of which are being purchased by the IAF at a mind-boggling price tag of Rs 42,000 crore, has been ruled out for integration with the supersonic BrahMos missile. BrahMos Aerospace, the Indo-Russian joint venture, has successfully developed the low-altitude supersonic BrahMos cruise missile that is quicker than any other missile in the world.
Having a speed of 2.8 mach, BrahMos, with a range of 290 km, is four times faster than American Tomahawk cruise missile, widely used by the USA during its offensive against Iraq. BrahMos Aerospace is now working to develop a hypersonic missile having a speed of over 6 mach.

Addressing a press conference on the sidelines of the Space Expo here today, A Sivathanu Pillai, CEO and MD of BrahMos Aerospace, said the new hypersonic missile would be ready in another five years. The warhead of the hypersonic missile would be relatively smaller, he said and added that because of its speed, the hypersonic missile would hit the target with a devastating impact nevertheless.
Pillai said following the induction of the supersonic BrahMos in the Army and the Navy, they were now working to develop a supersonic missile for the IAF. He said the missile would be integrated with the Russian Sukhoi 30 aircraft. Pillai said $50 million, split between the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and its Russian partner on a 50.5 and 49.5 per cent basis, had been allocated for developing the air force version of the missile to be used for air-to-ground attacks Modifications in the Sukhoi aircraft for integrating the missile would be carried out by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) at its facility at Nashik, Pillai said.

Blueprint for the changes would be drawn up by the Sukhoi design bureau in Russia, Pillai said. The flight-test of the air force variant of the missile would take place in 2012, he added. On the issue of integrating the missile with the MMRCA, which the IAF was in the process of acquiring, Pillai said medium aircraft were not being considered for firing the missile. &#8220;Sukhoi, being a big aircraft, is ideal for BrahMos,&#8221; he said.


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## marcos98

*MMRCA contenders yet to be shortlisted *

BY:Business News, Finance News, Stock Market, World Business, Financial Markets News Online

India is yet to shortlist contenders for supplying 126 fighter jets under the $11-billion medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) deal. &#8216;&#8216;At the moment, the Offsets Technical Committee&#8212;headed by the special secretary of defence production and including members from the defence research and development organisation (DRDO), Indian Air Force (IAF) and the ministry of defence (MoD)&#8212;is evaluating technical offsets proposals and sending their observations to all the six contenders,&#8221; officials privy to the process told FE.

The MoD can decide on shortlisting the contenders only when the technical offsets evaluation committee report and the field trial report are complete,&#8221; they said.

Based on the observations, vendors would submit fresh and revised offsets proposals, which will take a minimum of two months. After that, the contenders will be evaluated again and the recommendations will be sent for approval to the MoD, sources said, adding, &#8220;after it goes to the Cabinet Committee on Security for a final decision, government-to-government negotiations will be held in order to get additional benefits for the country.&#8221;

Lockheed Martin F-16IN, Boeing F/A-18, Dassault Rafale, EADS Eurofighter Typhoon, Saab Gripen and Russian MiG-35 are contending for the 126-aircraft programme. The Indian Air Force will invite different contenders to discuss flight evaluation reports once the field trials are complete.

The contenders, along with their partners, have also been invited by the MoD to present their offsets proposals. So far, the IAF has had a meeting with Lockheed Martin and Dassault of Rafale.

According to sources, &#8220;Vendors complying with the rules, the defence procurement policy and technical offsets will ultimately be considered. Also, the lowest bidder and the designated L1 will be selected as the MMRCA.&#8221; For the first time, IAF will consider the &#8216;life-cycle costs&#8217;, rather than just the lowest bid.


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## marcos98

*Germans are surprised by the operational cost of the Eurofighter
*
Google Translate
The operational costs of the Eurofighter are significantly larger than expected, with the price of &#8364; 73,992 per flight hour, almost double the initially anticipated.

The Tornado, more expensive aircraft of the Luftwaffe, it costs &#8364; 43,000 per hour. Much more expensive than previously thought, are also flights of the Air Force, made for German industry. In February 2009, three Eurofighter participated in Aero India 2009 show, because India plans to buy 126 new combat aircraft and Eurofighter is in the competition.

The Luftwaffe requested &#8364; 180,000 and the remainder was paid by the taxpayer. The trip was part of the normal flight program, so the Air Force justified the cost.

This year, the Eurofighter is being tested in India. A aeronave &#233; da Luftwaffe novamente. The aircraft of the Luftwaffe again. 

AIR POWER'S NOTE: The German journalist divided the total of &#8364; 7.1 million per 96 hours, which gives &#8364; 73,992 / h. But he forgot to divide the value by three planes, which would give &#8364; 24,664 euros / h.Still, it's a high cost for a game, maybe the total includes other costs of production in India.


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## sudhir007

Global giants line up for $10-bn IAF aircraft deal

Top leaders of the world are lining up for a $10-billion Indian order for 126 fighter aircraft. Companies from the US, France and Russia have put in their bids for the 126 MMRCA for the Indian Air Force (IAF) and the visiting leadership are expected to lobby with their counter parts. The US President Barack Obama&#8217;s visit in November will be followed by the French President Nicolas Sarkozy&#8217;s in early December and later by the Russian President Dmitry Medvedev.

Sources told FE on conditions of anonymity that, &#8216;&#8216;the six contenders have yet to be shortlisted. The defence ministry can decide on shortlisting the contenders only once it have the technical offsets evaluation committee report along with the Field Trial report.&#8217;&#8217;

&#8216;&#8216;After it goes to the Cabinet Committee on Security for a final decision, there will government-to-government negotiations in an effort to get additional benefits for the country,&#8217;&#8217; the source added.

American companies, Lockheed Martin F-16IN, Boeing F/A-18, French Dassault Rafale, EADS Eurofighter Typhoon, Saab Gripen and Russian MiG-35 are in the running for the 126-aircraft programme.

So far the IAF has had a meeting with Lockheed Martin and the French &#8216;Dassault&#8217; of Rafale.

According to sources, &#8216;&#8216;Vendors who are compliant rule wise, Defence Procurement Policy and Technical offsets will ultimately be opened for consideration. Also, the lowest bidder, designated L1, will be selected as the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA).&#8221;

The whole procedure is expected to take a couple of months and by then Obama will be here. &#8216;&#8216;While the MMRCA deal will be topping the agenda. Several other pending deals including the medium weight helicopters where the RFP is likely to be scrapped will be talked about. It is expected that India could ask the US for encryption technology too.&#8217;&#8217;

French President Nicholas Sarkozy and his wife Carla Bruni will arrive on a two-day visit on December 6-7. &#8216;&#8216;Definitely MMRCA deal come up for discussions. Eventually the selection of the MMRCA will be political decision,&#8217;&#8217; said officials.

Apart from inking pact for the supply of two reactors, India and France will also sign a $2.2-billion deal to upgrade its Mirage fleet. The upgrade deal, which had been hanging fire for the past two years due to differences over the price, is now ready to be inked, sources in the defence ministry said.

France is also keen that India approve the Maitri air-to-surface Low-Level Quick Reaction Missile (LLQRM), which has been jointly developed by the.

DRDO and France&#8217;s MBDA. While the missile&#8217;s final design has been locked up, the government is still to give a go ahead for the joint project.

Though India and Russia are implementing several joint military programmes, the most important are the production and upgrading of the BrahMos missile and the construction of fifth-generation supersonic fighters, among other things.

The MiG-35 is one of the contenders for the MMRCA is a MiG-29. The presence of MiG-29 infrastructure and a new plant for licence-building RD-33 Series III engines in India makes compliance with industrial offset requirements easier. The Russians are keen to sell the MiG-35 to the IAF, and could possibly on the agenda of talks.

---------- Post added at 10:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:44 AM ----------

Global giants line up for $10-bn IAF aircraft deal

Top leaders of the world are lining up for a $10-billion Indian order for 126 fighter aircraft. Companies from the US, France and Russia have put in their bids for the 126 MMRCA for the Indian Air Force (IAF) and the visiting leadership are expected to lobby with their counter parts. The US President Barack Obamas visit in November will be followed by the French President Nicolas Sarkozys in early December and later by the Russian President Dmitry Medvedev.

Sources told FE on conditions of anonymity that, the six contenders have yet to be shortlisted. The defence ministry can decide on shortlisting the contenders only once it have the technical offsets evaluation committee report along with the Field Trial report.

After it goes to the Cabinet Committee on Security for a final decision, there will government-to-government negotiations in an effort to get additional benefits for the country, the source added.

American companies, Lockheed Martin F-16IN, Boeing F/A-18, French Dassault Rafale, EADS Eurofighter Typhoon, Saab Gripen and Russian MiG-35 are in the running for the 126-aircraft programme.

So far the IAF has had a meeting with Lockheed Martin and the French Dassault of Rafale.

According to sources, Vendors who are compliant rule wise, Defence Procurement Policy and Technical offsets will ultimately be opened for consideration. Also, the lowest bidder, designated L1, will be selected as the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA).

The whole procedure is expected to take a couple of months and by then Obama will be here. While the MMRCA deal will be topping the agenda. Several other pending deals including the medium weight helicopters where the RFP is likely to be scrapped will be talked about. It is expected that India could ask the US for encryption technology too.

French President Nicholas Sarkozy and his wife Carla Bruni will arrive on a two-day visit on December 6-7. Definitely MMRCA deal come up for discussions. Eventually the selection of the MMRCA will be political decision, said officials.

Apart from inking pact for the supply of two reactors, India and France will also sign a $2.2-billion deal to upgrade its Mirage fleet. The upgrade deal, which had been hanging fire for the past two years due to differences over the price, is now ready to be inked, sources in the defence ministry said.

France is also keen that India approve the Maitri air-to-surface Low-Level Quick Reaction Missile (LLQRM), which has been jointly developed by the.

DRDO and Frances MBDA. While the missiles final design has been locked up, the government is still to give a go ahead for the joint project.

Though India and Russia are implementing several joint military programmes, the most important are the production and upgrading of the BrahMos missile and the construction of fifth-generation supersonic fighters, among other things.

The MiG-35 is one of the contenders for the MMRCA is a MiG-29. The presence of MiG-29 infrastructure and a new plant for licence-building RD-33 Series III engines in India makes compliance with industrial offset requirements easier. The Russians are keen to sell the MiG-35 to the IAF, and could possibly on the agenda of talks.


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## Dash

> The operational costs of the Eurofighter are significantly larger than expected, with the price of &#8364; 73,992 per flight hour, almost double the initially anticipated.



What is this now??, this cant be soooooooo high!!.


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## SpArK

*MMRCA BUZZ: What Makes The IAF Nervous About The Americans*










An IAF officer I spoke to six months ago to get a sense of how the Indian Air Force perceives partnerships with the United States as a potential outcome of the MMRCA competition, used a simple but strange metaphor to illustrate his opinion. Imagine India on the one side of a deep and wide ravine. Across this wide ravine is a gleaming suspension bridge. It looks great and appears superbly stable -- but in rough weather, there's every chance it will shake. In the past, when India has tried to cross this bridge, it has been forced to quickly retrace its steps midway when the bridge was buffeted by unkind winds that threatened to cast India into the ravine. So now, here's the question. Does the weather ever really change that much?

Two overwhelming notions, especially within the Indian media, over the last four years concerning the MMRCA competition, are, one, the government will choose an aircraft type based on political considerations. And two, since it does so, the Americans will win, since they offer more, on the face it, politically than any other nation. But these fall, indubitably, in the realm of government, and not the Indian Air Force. But while the IAF says it works only with determinables and not the intangibles, it obviously has concerns, many of which dwell in the realm of the political. Some of these concerns come up frequently and are well known. Others are less known and more specific. The idea of this post is to simply provide a consolidated view of perceptions of operating American aircraft.

Let's first get one thing out of the way. There are probably very few in the IAF who believe that the Americans can be beaten on potential technology. Notwithstanding arguments that the two American platforms on offer to India are essentially modernised legacy fighters with little or no modernisation latitude, there is a keen sense that the Americans control what is undeniably among the best aerospace technology in the world. The quality and temperament of sharing is a different matter, and I'll touch upon that later.

*The chief cause of nervousness in the IAF regarding any potential hardware from the US is, quite clearly, the potential attendant erosion of autonomy. Nothing in the last six years has changed that perception. The Indian government is rightly skeptical about the CISMOA and BECA agreements, but the end-user verification pact (EUVA) that the two countries finally entered into (even with India's counterdraft accepted) is not something that went down well with the IAF.* Crucially, there is a general sense that autonomy will potentially be affected not just as far as operations are concerned, but in other areas as well -- logistics, planning, profiling etc. *Here's something even more interesting: One officer suggests that the use of the MMRCA aircraft as strategic deterrent platforms (i.e. nuclear delivery aircraft) is a grey area that could prove almost certainly problematic when dealing with the Americans, or at least more problematic with the Americans than the others. It so happens that the only country that has never questioned India's strategic positioning of its aircraft, are the French (though they have different, equally serious problems). "India may not be Turkey, Egypt or Pakistan, but if you look at any country that operates American aircraft, there has been a period -- sometimes prolonged -- of trouble," says the officer quoted above, adding, "This is something a country like Pakistan can afford, since it has already pledged its strategic future to one nation. But can we?" The fear that the autonomy overhang could affect operational planning is a very real one. A section of the IAF believes South Block is way too hardnosed to buckle to a bad deal -- there's another that believes reluctance to sign the EUVA was merely diplomatic grandstanding that conveniently harnessed the IAF's apprehensions -- and, therefore, that there is every chance the IAF will be saddled with jets it cannot fully use.*

A related aspect is operational flexibility. During Kargil, the IAF reportedly did things to some of its Mirage-2000s that would have amounted to serious violations of the Indian government's contract with Dassault. It is understood, but not confirmed, that the French government was quietly engaged after the war and the two sides were able to agree that it was not a problem, and that no penalties would be slapped on the Indian government for what were, in reality, war exegencies, even though it was clear that there had been serious breaches of the technology agreement. The use of US aircraft would be far more potentially restricted and regulated by complex rules, legalese and guidelines. It's not that the IAF isn't used to this sort of thing. It's just that there's likely to be exponentially more to pore over before scrambling an American jet from an Indian base. Here's another point: Buying and operating US aircraft, some in the IAF believe, would "completely subvert" one of the most deeply entrenched "ways" of doing things in India -- using a generous dose of improvisation. "Will the American be fanatically remote controlling with India as well? It is hard to say," says the officer quoted above.

*Next, of course, trust. Reliability and trust are major issues, and this has little do with any sort of hangover of the 1998 post-Shakti sanctions. An influential quarter in the IAF feels the US has not qualitatively demonstrated that it is a sincere partner, especially when it comes to India's indigenous programmes. In 1998, US sanctions dealt a death blow, or nearly so, to several Indian weapon and weapon platform programmes, including the country's missile programme, light combat aircraft, NCW technologies and other critical programmes. But little has actually changed. While the US is happy to sell India billions of dollars worth of hardware, it is suspiciously and conspicuously unreliable even now when it comes to indigenous programmes. For instance, the IAF is still wondering why the US government didn't allow Boeing to provide a technological and flight test consultancy to the Tejas programme. Recently, it was revealed that Lockheed-Martin was unable to obtain approvals from the US government to consult for the Naval Tejas programme (both contracts went by default to EADS).* The point is, the consultancies were "small-fry contracts that held nothing of advantage to either of the American companies or the government," says a Group Captain. He adds, "Such denials are taken very seriously. What could the possible reason be for the US government to deny two small consultancies? It has not been reported much, so it is forgotten. For the service, it was a jolt. The implications are plain for anyone to deduce." He's right. For all the big-sounding partnership rhetoric that India has gotten used to being bombarded with from Washington, it's the little things that offer a different, decidedly worrying picture for the IAF. Simply put, the perception appears to be this in some quarters -- the Pentagon wants to sell you a lot of souped up Cold War era fighter planes, but doesn't want to tell you how to fine-tune carrier-safe landing gear assemblies. It doesn't want to tell you how to speed up flight trials. It refuses to tell you how to expand the operational envelope of your own in-development fighter platform. The two Tejas consultancy programmes are, incidentally, only two among at least a dozen similar contracts that the US has "won", but failed to act upon as a result of seeming Pentagon/State Department sensitivities. Result: perceptions that the US wants to sell India weapons, and has little interest in any real partnerships that could potentially edge out the need to buy those or similar weapons at a later stage as well.

*A dramatic and interesting perception in a certain section of the IAF is that the F-16 Block 60 and F/A-18E/F are excellent fighter platforms, but that it is unlikely that the US will be either a willing or reliable partner as far as ensuring that these aircraft are on the cutting edge throughout their life of 40 years or more.* The US government has, on behalf of the plane makers, assured the Indian government -- and will drive it home many more times -- that the future of these two platforms is completely safe. Still, the sense that you won't get the best they have is nowhere more overpowering than it is with the Americans.

Some of these concerns have a greater emphasis than others in ongoing dialogue between the IAF and the MoD, but all figure at various levels without exception. It must be said that there is, at the same time, a powerful section within the IAF -- with compelling arguments of its own on all the concerns listed above -- that the only way the IAF can make its next aerospace leap, is with technology from the United States, and that any other, would be a compromise on such a valuable opportunity to shift away from rusty strategic predilections of the past.


Livefist - The Best of Indian Defence


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## marcos98

*MMRCA: leaders are eyeing*




In the coming months, Obama, Sarkozy and Medvedev will visit India

Companies U.S., France and Russia made their proposals for the MMRCA program, which aims to get 126 fighter jets for medium-sized Indian Air Force. It is now expected that the presidents of these countries in their future visits to India, people lobby for these proposals. The visit of U.S. President, Barack Obama, is scheduled for November, followed by the visit of President of France, Nicolas Sarkozy, in early December and the President of Russia Dmitry Medvedev at the end of that month.

Sources told The Financial Express (FE), under the condition of remaining anonymous, that "the six competitors will still be subjected to a shortlist (short list). The Minister of Defence may decide to reduce the number of competitors after receiving the report of the evaluation committee for offsets (offsets) techniques, together with the report of field tests. Once the Security Committee of Cabinet makes the final decision, there will be negotiations between governments in an effort to achieve additional benefits for India.

Of the companies in dispute , the Indian Air Force has already held meetings with Lockheed Martin, U.S., and France's Dassault. According to sources, the proposals that meet rules, the procurement policy of defense and compensatory techniques are taken into account, and the proposal of lesser value, called L1, is selected as the MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft - fighter medium multitasking).

The whole procedure should take approximately two months, then when Obama visits India. Although the sources of FE, "the MMRCA should be the priority on the agenda, but several other pending agreements should be treated, which includes a medium-sized helicopters, whose RFP (Request for Proposal) may be discarded. Also expected to ask India encryption technology to the U.S.. "

Already Nicolas Sarkozy and his wife Carla Bruni visit India 6-7 December and "definitely the MMRCA contract will be discussed. Eventually the selection MMRCA will be a political decision, "officials said. In addition to signing the pact to supply two reactors, India and France should also sign an agreement of 2.2 billion dollars to modernize the fleet of Indian Air Force Mirage. According to Defense Ministry sources, the agreement of modernization, which was pending in the last two years due to differences with the cost, ready to be signed.

France also awaits approval from India to Maitri, air-surface missile with low altitude and rapid response (Low-Level Quick Reaction Missile - LLQRM), which is being developed in conjunction with the MBDA.

Already on the MiG-35 offered by Russia, the story of EF poses as easily, to meet the requirements of industrial counterparts, the fact that there is already an established infrastructure of the MiG-29 as well as a new plant to manufacture under license , engines RD-33 Series III. The sale of MiG-35 will probably be on the agenda of talks, taking into account also that India and Russia are implementing several joint military programs, among the most important, production and modernization of the missile BrahMos supersonic fighters and the fifth generation.
SOURCE: Financial Express


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## gowthamraj

^ interesting guys, so it's a thrill time


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## SpArK

*F/A-18 Distributed Targeting System has first flight*









An F/A-18F Super Hornet equipped with the Distributed Targeting System completed its first one-hour test flight Sept. 1 at Naval Air Station China Lake, Calif.
The system is part of the U.S. Navys F/A-18E/F Network Centric Warfare Upgrades program and F/A-18E/F flight plan, a program designed *to ensure that the Block II Super Hornet will stay ahead of known and emerging threats through 2025 and beyond*.

This is a major architectural implementation for the flight plan upgrade, said Capt. Mark Darrah, F/A-18 and EA-18G program manager. It will be a huge enhancement to the F/A-18 fleet aircraft.

The DTS itself is a hardware and software system designed to *provide precision strike capability against relocatable, targets, such as mobile surface-to-air missile units*. The system uses sensor imagery gathered from the radar or infrared signatures emitted by potential targets. It then compares those images to references stored within DTS to determine if the target is a threat.

*The system is designed to reduce the time it takes to search, identify, classify, pinpoint and attack a target as well as assess the damage to the target, a process also known as the kill chain. With onboard communications, a single aircraft equipped with DTS can provide multiple target points to other aircraft. Without this capability, each aircraft derives individual coordinates on each target.*

DTS provides real time precision strike capability to the warfighter, where no similar capability exists today, said Darrah. This ability to strike mobile threat targets with precision minimizes collateral damage to supporting ground forces in close contact.

The DTS program, which will be fielded on all Block II F/A-18E/F Super Hornets, began in 2004. Initial operational capability is slated for fall 2012 with operational fielding in 2013.


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## anathema

A great airshow by Rafale.


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## anathema

Gripen Air show from the same place


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## anathema

mig 29 airshow from same place -- look at the smoky engines!!!


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## anathema




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## jha

*
SELEX Galileo to supply Praetorian Defensive Aids Sub-Systems for Eurofighter Typhoon Tranche 3A worth EUR 490 million *

BAE Systems has ordered from SELEX Galileo Praetorian Defensive Aids Sub-Systems (DASS) to be installed on the Tranche 3A of the Eurofighter Typhoon programme. The contract worth GBP 400 million.

Praetorian DASS has been designed specifically for the Eurofighter. Delivery of the first batch of the Praetorian systems will be made to the four partner countries (UK, Italy, Spain and Germany) by mid-2012.

Praetorian DASS is already employed in the Eurofighter Tranche 2 aircraft. They are also supplied with the capacity for additional enhancements that can meet clients&#8217; current and future operational requirements.
SELEX Galileo is the lead contractor and retains design authority for the Praetorian system. The company leads the EuroDASS Consortium (comprising Elettronica, Indra Sistemas, EADS and SELEX Galileo) and is responsible for the production of more than 20 line replaceable items that make up the Praetorian system.


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## SpArK

*Sweden Moves On Meteor for Gripen​*

Gripen fighters have fired Meteor missiles several times, but the Swedish government now is properly moving forward on getting the ramjet-powered MBDA beyond visual range air-to-air missile on the fighter.

Gripen has served as the test platform for Meteor flight trials, with the first shot having taken place in 2006. Gripen was seen as a relatively low-cost flight test option.






(credit: Gripen International)

But now the Swedish defense procurement agency, FMV, is ready to focus on getting Meteor properly onto Gripen, integrating the missile with the radar, displays, and mission planning system. The 312 million Swedish kronor contract also includes some test firings.

It's an important step for Gripen, because it gives the fighter some bragging rights in international competitions. 



Sweden Moves On Meteor for Gripen

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## redpearl75

Sounds interesting and honestly speaking Gripen has been one of my favorites from the very beginning... But the thing is that the Rafale and the Eurofighter already has Meteor under it's belly and are far ahead in the competition with even greater weapon load still I prefer Gripen over the Typhoon as EFT is priced too very much.. The weapon options for all EFT, Rafale and, Gripen are almost the same just that EFT can carry AIM-9 Sidewinder, AIM-132 ASRAAM, AIM-120 and, AMRAAM which are all of American & British origin... Still can't say if India offers to make these jets compatible with teh Russian and Indian weapons, if that could be done then walla!! all are good....


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## SpArK

*Gen. Zelin became a traveling salesman*

Yesterday began the official visit of the delegation of the Russian Air Force General Command, headed by Air Force Commander Col. Gen. Alexander Zelin said in India. , Told news agencies the official representative of the Office of Press and Information Service Ministry of Defence Lt. Col. Vladimir Drick.

Nezavisimaya Gazeta, September 8, 2010

According to the officer, the trip is organized at the invitation of Commander of the Indian Air Force chief Air Marshal Pradeep Vasant Naik. Apart from Air Force Russia's delegation includes the head of 185-th Astrakhan center training and combat application of Air Force Maj. Gen. Vladimir degrees. 

*Within four days the Russian pilots will visit the Indian air bases "Palam", "Jodhpur", "Bidart" and "Bigumpet" hold several meetings with the leadership of the Armed Forces of the Republic of India, will become familiar with basic and promising directions of development of the Indian Air Force today*. Lt. Col. Drick specially stressed that the event is held within the development and strengthening of bilateral ties between the armed forces of Russia and India in the field of military aviation. " But not a word said about the content of conversations of senior military of the opposing sides. And to say there is that.

Readers of "NG", as an application of "NWO", know that the military-technical cooperation between Russia and India military aircraft has a special place. 

Perhaps, more than 60% of deliveries of Russian military equipment and weapons on the Indian subcontinent falls on combat aircraft. This is not just delivery, but also the co-production of combat aircraft.

Well-known example of a multi-purpose fighter Su-30MKI in the creation of which except the company "Sukhoi", attended by French, Israeli and Indian experts. To date, over 250 copies of this machine in the amount of 8,5 billion dollars have already gone to the Irkutsk Aircraft Production Association in the Indian Air Force. And what is more, the Indian corporation Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL)was sold the license for production of this fighter, for which the Russian side continues to supply parts. There are reports that* New Delhi would buy us another 250 such planes, which are considered the best in its class.*

India bought from Russia over $ 1 billion to $ 16 shipboard fighters MiG-29K/MiG-29KUB to equip their aircraft carrier Vikramaditya, as long as the wall continues to modernize the Severodvinsk "Sevmashpredpriyatie, but the Indian pilots had already settle on these machines - at the gym, on factory stocks, in the cockpits of the first fighter flown by the military base in the country. 

Delhi has announced that in addition to this party will get another two dozen of these aircraft. Together with the company "Sukhoi" corporation HAL is working on a fifth-generation fighter. Almost the same as that already flying in the sky native Russian T-50, but the truth, not to only one, as we have, and the two pilots.

*India is reportedly ready to buy more than 250 of these aircraft for its own needs and then produce them in their enterprises. Including for supply to third countries. The cost of the joint development of a new fighter is estimated at 8-10 billion dollars, and the customers it will cost at least 85-100 million "green".*

You can tell much about the future held, and projects in which Russia participates, together with India. And, of course, Air Force Commander Colonel General Zelin will talk about them with his Indian counterpart. But apparently, not only about them.

Now the Indian Air Force carried out a tender to supply Delhi 126 medium multi-purpose fighter aircraft (MMRCA). In addition to its U.S. F/A-18E/F Super Hornet aircraft firm Boeing, as well as the F-16 Fating Falcon firm Lockheed Martin, the French Dassault Aviation Rafale with the Swedish SAAB JAS-39 Grippen, Europe (UK-Germany-Italy-Spain) Eurofighter EF-200 Typhoon, and our country is involved with multipurpose fighter MiG-35 that has an adjustable thrust vector and there are other martial dignity. Tests of the competing cars are already on the local air bases in the most difficult conditions of air combat, with a massive impact on their means, electronic warfare, countering other aircraft. A local media closely follow the situation and sometimes "issue on the air" such messages, which can lead to confusion of national experts.

For example, they reported recently that in the final part of the tender included the French and European fighters, and the Russian MiG-35 could not stand trial because of the engine, a resource which struck the Indian Air Force leaders inadequate. And though the Indian Air Force command denied a post as unreliable, *General Zelin, as well as his subordinate, General Gradusovu certainly have to work hard to convince their senior Indian colleagues that our fighter still the best of all, that put up for competition. Also, ask them or not, time will tell. But $ 11 billion, which promised the winner, are to Air Force Commander has worked sometimes and salesman.*



AVIA.RU: ????? ??????:




*
Note: crappy grammer due to translation from Russian.*

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## SpArK

*Typhoons receive Selex Galileo sub-systems*

Published : Wednesday, September 08 2010 09:48 

ROME, Sept. 8 (UPI) -- New Eurofighter Typhoons will receive defense aids sub-systems from Selex Galileo, a subsidiary of Italy's Finmeccanica.

The award for the Selex Galileo Praetorian DASS was awarded by BAE systems. It is worth nearly $614 million.

"This contract award represents a significant achievement for the EuroDASS consortium and reflects the confidence that the partner nations and Typhoon crews place in the Praetorian system" said Selex Galileo Chief Executive Officer Steve Mogford. "I'm proud that the relationships we've developed with our consortium partners, customers and end users have resulted in such a successful, effective and life-saving system." 

The Praetorian DASS, designed specifically for the Typhoon, comprises electronic countermeasures, electronic support measures and missile approach warning elements. First delivery of the system will occur in mid-2012 and all four partners in the fighter -- Britain, Italy, Spain and Germany -- will receive them.

Selex Galileo said that under the contract, the Tranche 3A Eurofighter Praetorian systems are to be delivered to the same standard as those for the Eurofighter Typhoon Tranche 2 program.

Selex Galileo is a key partner in the fighter program with more than 200 Praetorian systems having been delivered to date. With Selex Galileo's activities, the Finmeccanica share in the avionics on the Eurofighter Typhoon is more than 60 percent.



Typhoons receive Selex Galileo sub-systems

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## SpArK

*Future missile system for Gripen​*



Defence and security company Saab has received an order from FMV (the Swedish Defence Materiel Administration) regarding the integration of the active radar-guided Beyond Visual Range (BVR) missile, Meteor. The order is worth MSEK 312 spread over four years.
The integration means that Meteor will be adapted to other Gripen systems, such as the radar and displays. The order includes test flights and test firing, as well as the integration of Meteor with support and maintenance systems such as simulators and planning computers. The Swedish Gripen C/D aircraft will also have a two-way datalink for communication between the aircraft and the missile once it has been fired.

"Meteor has substantially better performance than any other BVR missile existing today, which will obviously increase Gripen's ability to defend against other aircraft," says Lennart Sindahl, Head of business area Aeronautics within Saab. "The fact that Gripen is also being used internationally as an airborne platform in the development of Meteor shows that we have a technical level in Sweden that few other countries can match."

Gripen has been used since 2006 as the test aircraft for the development of Meteor. Multiple missiles have been fired from Gripen to date. This experience can now be utilised for a more cost-effective integration of Meteor with the Swedish Armed Forces' Gripen C/D.

The order mainly concerns Saab's operations in Linköping and to some extent Gothenburg.


Saab serves the global market with world-leading products, services and solutions ranging from military defence to civil security. Saab has operations and employees on all continents and constantly develops adapts and improves new technology to meet customers changing needs.

Meteor has been designed to defeat current and future threats at beyond visual range, with an understanding performance that will totally redefine an aircraft's air combat capability. Meteor has the largest No Escape Zone of any air-to-air weapon, resulting in a long stand-off range and high kill probability that ensures air superiority and pilot survivability. The programme is on schedule to deliver the first production deliveries in 2012 and is the result of a successful six-nation European collaboration, in which Saab Dynamics of Sweden is a partner of the prime contractor, MBDA.

*The Gripen is the first of the new generation fighter aircraft to enter service and the first to be used for firing Meteor, the high-tech beyond visual range missiles of the future. Using the latest available technology it is capable of performing an extensive range of air-to-air and air-to-surface operational missions and employing the latest weapons. Gripen, designed to meet the demands of current and future threats, is in service with the Swedish, Czech Republic, Hungarian and South African Air Forces and has also been ordered by the Royal Thai Air Force. The UK Empire Test Pilots´ School (ETPS) is also operating Gripen as its advanced fast jet platform for test pilots world wide. *


Future missile system for Gripen | Cision Wire


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## SpArK

Not a post on MRCA but its related.

*Lula to decide on fighter jet deal after October elections*

President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva will decide who gets Brazil's multi-billion dollar contract to build jet fighters, after the October elections but before he leaves office on January 1, his defense minister said Tuesday.


*The finalists now battling it out in the final stages of the tender are France's Rafale made by Dassault, Sweden's Gripen NG by Saab, and the F/A-18 Super Hornet manufactured by US giant Boeing.*


"After the (October 3) elections, the president will study the issue. He'll make a decision this year, during this administration," Defense Minister Nelson Jobim said after presiding an Independence Day parade, as quoted by Agencia Brasil news agency.


The deal is estimated to be worth between four and seven billion dollars, *depending on details of armaments, maintenance and peripheral industrial involvement. Brazil could also end up buying up to another 100 fighter jets from the supplier over the long term.*

*Brazil has made technology transfer the main priority in the tender, so it can produce fighter aircraft itself and boost its aviation industry.
To that end, Lula has already stated his preference to purchase 36 French-made, semi-stealth Rafale jets.*

Lula will call a meeting of his national defense council, and announce his decision after hearing its advice.
*Throughout the bidding process, however, the president has made it clear the final decision involved politics and was his alone to make.*

*Brazil's Air Force has stated that from a defensive point of view all three bids meet the requirements of the national defense strategy that was approved last year.
*


Lula's candidate to succeed him in October, Dilma Rousseff, has taken a commanding lead over her nearest challenger Jose Serra, Sao Paulo's former governor.


Lula to decide on fighter jet deal after October elections < French news | Expatica France


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## SpArK

I say make a consortium of France , Brazil and India and buy the damn Frenchie Fighter.


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## SQ8

No news on who is ahead.. and when is the selection to be made public??


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## SpArK

santro said:


> No news on who is ahead.. and when is the selection to be made public??



Nothing related have been heard in 3-4 weeks. Only rumors.

So most have lost interest in it until something credible comes over.

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## RPK

*IAF to acquire 126 multi-fighter aircraft soon - India - DNA*


Indian Air Force today said it will acquire 126 latest multi-fighter aircrafts within a year.

*"We are in the final stages of placing orders to acquire 126 multi-fighter aircrafts from US, France or Sweden within a year," Air Marshal Anil Chopra told reporters during his visit to the Sainik School here.*

Light Combat Aircrafts (LCA) would also be added to the air force soon, he said.

Chopra, who belongs to Kapurthala and a pass out from the Sainik School, later interacted with the students.


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## SpArK

rpraveenkum said:


> *IAF to acquire 126 multi-fighter aircraft soon - India - DNA*
> 
> 
> Indian Air Force today said it will acquire 126 latest multi-fighter aircrafts within a year.
> 
> *"We are in the final stages of placing orders to acquire 126 multi-fighter aircrafts from US, France or Sweden within a year," Air Marshal Anil Chopra told reporters during his visit to the Sainik School here.*
> 
> Light Combat Aircrafts (LCA) would also be added to the air force soon, he said.
> 
> Chopra, who belongs to Kapurthala and a pass out from the Sainik School, later interacted with the students.



*US, France or Sweden???

F-18, Rafale or Grippen???*


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## trident2010

BENNY said:


> *US, France or Sweden???
> 
> F-18, Rafale or Grippen???*



Either of them will be good. I personally prefer Rafale


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## SpArK

trident2010 said:


> Either of them will be good. I personally prefer Rafale



Me too 

I cross checked the news again and again to make sure its not written by that lankan dude who said we are buying F-15 Silent eagle. LOL


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## mrwarrior006

if tats wat the option is going to be then i would choose rafale


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## Dash

If any body has seen the RAfale video in previous page by Anathema, they will always choose rafale....Real sharp turns, true FBW and RSS.


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## lalluyadav

*guys i have a question*

russian air chief also came in india to verify the reports abt the mig-35.but according to the reports above ,i dont see russia.


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## SpArK

Would love these over our skies


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## trident2010

The only thing I don't like in Rafale is the refuling probe. It looks so ugly. Can't they have some sort of retractable probe. Imagine how sleek it will look without that probe

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## SpArK

Rafale is designed with minimal moving parts like no air brakes and a non retracting refuelling probe so as to minimise maintenance and ensure a high readyness rate. It never requires to leave its base for overhauls throught its service life.

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## gowthamraj

Want Rafale in INDIAN color


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## rockstarIN

gowthamraj said:


> Want Rafale in INDIAN color



Prefer Eurofighter than Rafale, more engine power..!!

---------- Post added at 12:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:07 PM ----------

Also French is too commercial, look at the price of Mirage upgrade?

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## Dash

rockstar said:


> Prefer Eurofighter than Rafale, more engine power..!!
> 
> ---------- Post added at 12:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:07 PM ----------
> 
> Also French is too commercial, look at the price of Mirage upgrade?


If you look at commercial aspect of it then Rafale is better than Euro fighter.


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## rockstarIN

Dash said:


> If you look at commercial aspect of it then Rafale is better than Euro fighter.



France always charge more for upgrades & maintenance, we saw it in Mirage upgrades.more than 2 billion need to pay the upgrade.We operate 51 MirageH and upgrade price is around 40 million per plane? whereas new Mig29K costed us 36 million. Is this commercial advantage?


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## cybertron

i would anyday prefer the f-16 super viper over the hornet
guys is the one offered to us hornet mk2??


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## cybertron

plus i am not much of a rafael fan


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## doctor_who

*most Indian pilots like to get their hands on American fa-18 super hornet. 

secondly after sale american don't make you pay twice the money previously decided. 

after sale service is better by Americans.

indian pilots were always in aw- of the quality of fighter pakistani fly. 

its the first time we are offered better fighter than pakistan by Americans. India wont miss the opportunity. 

also once you get in deal with americans , you get to fly and train with them in most drills.
*


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## lord of snipers

the french are offering full ToT
which no one except russians are doing and i think no one wants mig 35
anyways we will get meteor with rafale and less importantly 
rafale is the most beautiful of all 6


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## Dash

rockstar said:


> France always charge more for upgrades & maintenance, we saw it in Mirage upgrades.more than 2 billion need to pay the upgrade.We operate 51 MirageH and upgrade price is around 40 million per plane? whereas new Mig29K costed us 36 million. Is this commercial advantage?


You first need to understand that French avionics are a bit costlier because they dont have a large production line like US.

Second, if you know the kind of upgrade the Mirage is going through you will know that 40 million per sircraft is worth. Migs are going for a some upgrade, but Mirages are going change drastically in firepower and avionics. If you want then I can post the upgrade details however, you can also browse this thread back to see what we have discussed.


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## lord of snipers

will the new mirages be better than mki in any aspect
if so can u please pm the details coz mki cost us 45mn or so per piece[ex showroom price]


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## lord of snipers

rafale's cockpit





isnt it BEAUTIFULits definitely the most beautiful thing i ever saw


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## rockstarIN

Dash said:


> You first need to understand that French avionics are a bit costlier because they dont have a large production line like US.
> 
> Second, if you know the kind of upgrade the Mirage is going through you will know that 40 million per sircraft is worth. Migs are going for a some upgrade, but Mirages are going change drastically in firepower and avionics. If you want then I can post the upgrade details however, you can also browse this thread back to see what we have discussed.



I'm not debating about the quality of french stuff, it is always proven worthy.

After all an aircraft is a machine and it has its life time. We started getting Mirages in 1985, now after 25 years, you are spending 40 Million on a jet. You will get Rafale if you add some more monies (May be 60Million per jet). I'm not saying it is not worthy, coz the flying experience with Mirage is excellent. All I dispute is the price of the upgradation. Remember India wants to buy Mirages (126 nos) as MRCA initially but France Said its production line is closed.


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## rockstarIN

lord of snipers said:


> will the new mirages be better than mki in any prospect
> if so can u please pm the details coz mki cost us 45mn or so per piece[ex showroom price]



Both are difference class aircrafts.


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## lord of snipers

rockstar said:


> Both are difference class aircrafts.


you are completely right 
but i was asking with regard to avionics radar etc


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## rockstarIN

lord of snipers said:


> you are completely right
> but i was asking with regard to avionics radar etc



Then , the answer is NO.

Except low RCS


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## soaringphnx

lord of snipers said:


> the french are offering full ToT
> which no one except russians are doing and i think no one wants mig 35
> anyways we will get meteor with rafale and less importantly
> rafale is the most beautiful of all 6



How can the French give us full ToT? I've heard some Rafale components are of U.S. origin. In fact all fighters in the competition except the MiG-35 use some american components.


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## Dash

soaringphnx said:


> How can the French give us full ToT? I've heard some Rafale components are of U.S. origin. In fact all fighters in the competition except the MiG-35 use some american components.


Dont worry about the full TOT stuff, its never full TOT at any cost, but we will get what we want.


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## Dash

rockstar said:


> I'm not debating about the quality of french stuff, it is always proven worthy.
> 
> After all an aircraft is a machine and it has its life time. We started getting Mirages in 1985, now after 25 years, you are spending 40 Million on a jet. You will get Rafale if you add some more monies (May be 60Million per jet). I'm not saying it is not worthy, coz the flying experience with Mirage is excellent. All I dispute is the price of the upgradation. Remember India wants to buy Mirages (126 nos) as MRCA initially but France Said its production line is closed.


Yes they did say that the producttion line is closed but later they also said that they can move the Mirage production line to India, but we changed our mind.

40 million is worth spending on an AC which has served us for 25 years, you are increasing the life by another 20 years, thats fine.

Its getting a new RADAR, new Jammer, new EW suite, Glass cockpit with MFD, HUD. most key tech of Rafale is being given here, so it will cost that much.


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## rockstarIN

Dash said:


> Yes they did say that the producttion line is closed but later they also said that they can move the Mirage production line to India, but we changed our mind.
> 
> 40 million is worth spending on an AC which has served us for 25 years, you are increasing the life by another 20 years, thats fine.
> 
> Its getting a new RADAR, new Jammer, new EW suite, Glass cockpit with MFD, HUD. most key tech of Rafale is being given here, so it will cost that much.



Few more questions

-Is the radar AESA?

-Are we getting new Ramjet powered MBDA Meteor along with it?


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## Dash

rockstar said:


> Few more questions
> 
> -Is the radar AESA?
> 
> -Are we getting new Ramjet powered MBDA Meteor along with it?





> Is the radar AESA?


No its not, its RDY 2 Radar.



> Are we getting new Ramjet powered MBDA Meteor along with it?



No Meteor is the future option, Its Mica.


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## rockstarIN

Dash said:


> No its not, its RDY 2 Radar.
> 
> 
> 
> No Meteor is the future option, Its Mica.




Still is it a good deal?

Rafale will start fly with AESA in 2012 & Eurofighter in 2014.

another MRCA contender, F-18 has AESA from 2007.

Anyways, in my opinion, I don't think it is a good deal commercially. (without political consideration)

Feel free to disagree...!!


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## Dash

rockstar said:


> Still is it a good deal?
> 
> Rafale will start fly with AESA in 2012 & Eurofighter in 2014.
> 
> another MRCA contender, F-18 has AESA from 2007.
> 
> Anyways, in my opinion, I don't think it is a good deal commercially. (without political consideration)
> 
> Feel free to disagree...!!


I realised what you were going to say when you asked me these questions.
Not a problem.

its still a good deal. if it wasnt then 50 years of IAF is being wasted, which isnt the case


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## rockstarIN

Long Live Mirage 200H.....!!


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## SpArK

*Defence ministry goes slow on downlisting firms for aircraft deal​*


Posted: Saturday, Sep 18, 2010 at 0100 hrs IST


New Delhi: Despite getting gentle nudges from the government, the defence establishment does not seem to be ready for an early downlisting of the $10-billion 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) contract in which companies from the US, France and Russia are in the race. Sources told FE, *The field trial report of the six contenders has been sent to the director-general acquisitions office, who is expected to make recommendations and send it to the defence acquisition council (DAC) of the ministry of defence (MoD).*

The DGs recommendations will not only be based on the field trial report but will also take into consideration the evaluation of the offset proposals of the six contenders. The Offset Technical Committee in the defence ministry has already initiated the process of evaluating the offset proposals, sources added.

*They went on to clarify that they are under no pressure to downselect contenders prior to the visit of the US President Barack Obama, French President Nicholas Sarkozy and his wife Carla Bruni and the Russian President Dmitry Medvedev.*

American companies, Lockheed Martin F-16IN, Boeing F/A-18, French Dassault Rafale, EADS Eurofighter Typhoon, Saab Gripen and Russian MiG-35 are in the running for the 126 aircraft deal which is expected to replace the ageing MiG-21s. According to sources, *Vendors who are compliant rule wise, Defence Procurement Policy and Technical offsets will ultimately be opened for consideration. Also, the lowest bidder, designated L1, will be selected as the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA)."
*

Once the contenders receive the evaluation of the Offset Technical Committee, the contenders for the MMRCA will give fresh offset proposals. After that, fresh recommendations will be sent to the defence ministry. Once the Cabinet Committee on Security gives the nod, negotiations between governments will begin, which could start early next year, sources added. The contenders have being invited to submit their offset plans and the IAF will meet different contenders to discuss flight evaluation reports once the field trials are complete. It may be noted that the IAF is considering life-cycle costs and not just the lowest bid for the MMRCA. *The contract entails acquisition of 18 aircraft to be bought off-the-shelf and the rest to be manufactured in India under transfer of technology.*



Defence ministry goes slow on downlisting firms for aircraft deal


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## syntax_error

Seriously im bored with this deal......
even Ekta Kapoor's serials are like thrillers compared to this

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## SpArK

*The MMRCA Game​*
The MMRCA Game


The word MMRCA is again making lots of noise in defense circles as the Flight evaluation test report by the Indian Air Force has been submitted to the Ministry of Defense. The report consists of some 643 test points which were determined by the IAF have been submitted to the Ministry for approval. Old news apart, the biggest debate going around and quite for a while now is who will win the competition and gloat around at air shows and exhibitions. All the experts have made very good commentary on this debate; every debate made by them has some really good points and some really serious criticism.

All the six contenders need this contract as it will determine their future. *The F-16 wants to squeeze everything out of it and prove that it is still one of the best platform, the F/A-18SH needs a big contract from outside USA to ensure its future and that of Boeing, Rafael needs to open its export account, Typhoon needs the deal to offset its downsizing by sponsor nations and the entire future of MiG-35 and JAS-39 Gripen depends on winning the contract.* *MMRCA deal is not only worth a lot in terms of money but also the competitor&#8217;s future prospects and how the world sees it post-MMRCA depends on it.*

Now we know that the suppliers will do everything to win but who will India choose is a different game all together. IAF needs a fighter which will act as stop gap measure and prevent further force depletion. But the game is just a bit more complicated than that with players like Transfer of technology, life cycle cost, weaponry, politics, etc. playing hard. Now India won&#8217;t get everything it wants because it&#8217;s not possible to hit a 6 on every ball and dismiss the entire opposition in 10 balls. Like any other captain India needs to choose the right players and right combination to win the game in the best possible manner without creating any controversy.

I have divided the winning formula into three game plans all of them should ensure victory at certain expense.

*Game Plan 1: The best beast wins!*

The first game plane is relatively simple; India should choose the best platform available to them. In this competition the Dassault Rafael and the Eurofighter Typhoon are probably the best beasts. Both the platforms are quite new and come with the latest in avionics, self-defense systems and weaponry. Both the fighters have very good kinematic performance and are stated to receive new AESA radars. Rafael has its SPECTRA electronic survival system and Typhoon has its advance avionics and flight control system which are said to be best in the business. The only downside to these aircrafts is that they are very expensive to buy.

*Game Plan 2: The Political Power play*

Politics is the real game changer here. More than often experts, politicians, officials and air force personnel&#8217;s have touted this to the star player in game. Looking at the current trend the Americans look the strongest in this area and will probably emerge victorious with their F/A-18SH if the final decision is a political one. Now, the Super Hornet is a very good fighter with deadly capabilities and the best Radar in the competition. It would also mean that India would receive great deal of support in various fields like nuclear science, Research and development, Military cooperation, UNSC permanent seat, etc. from USA. The downside to this is that anything Americans sell comes with several strings attached which the Indian media has put light on several times.

*Game Plan 3: The L1 Policy*

The third and the final game plan is L1, the lowest bidder wins. *IAF wants these fighters as a stop gap measure and they will be demoted to level 2 fighters once 5th generation fighters start entering service which is by 2025. That means the gains of this game will last only a decade hence it makes since to buy a reasonable capable fighters at low cost. In this scenario the MiG-35, Gripen and the F-16IN have a good chance. *All three have some very good qualities and they are jack of rest. The MiG-35 will need less of everything as it an upgraded version of MiG-29 with which IAF has absolutely no problem. Gripen is a new platform like Rafael and Typhoon but is cheap, F-16 will allow IAF to understand the threats it faces with PAF (F-16Blk-50 and JF-17) and PLAAF (J-10) having fighters with similar or less capabilities. The downside to this will be that IAF won&#8217;t be getting anything worth for long term future and need not necessarily be the sharpest knife.

*Conclusion:*

*India has to choose the fighter keeping in mind its long term and short term objectives. If she wants to buy the best then Rafael and Typhoon are the one to look at, if she wants to achieve its political goals then Super Hornet is probably the best buy and if she wants to just spend less and get the job done then MiG-35, JAS-39 Gripen and F-16 are the aircraft which come cheap.*


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## gowthamraj

I love f-16  if the mod wants rich plane they go for Rafale. 


If less price means f-16


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## SpArK

gowthamraj said:


> I love f-16  if the mod wants rich plane they go for Rafale.
> 
> 
> If less price means f-16



The "rich" plane is EF 
"less price" is Mig-35


----------



## SpArK

*Gripen over Burj Al Arab*


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## SpArK

Over Dubai Port








Over Palm Jumeirah


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## IndianArmy

I have seen the Mig 35 Fly.... Believe me, I would anytime want to have that Thing In Our Arsenal....


----------



## SpArK

IndianArmy said:


> I have seen the Mig 35 Fly.... Believe me, I would anytime want to have that Thing In Our Arsenal....



Mig-29 is enough ..

we need to diversify ..


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## IndianArmy

BENNY said:


> Mig-29 is enough ..
> 
> we need to diversify ..
> 
> YouTube - MiG-29 OVT and MiG-35



what are the benefits of Diversification???


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## SpArK

IndianArmy said:


> what are the benefits of Diversification???



Different vendors means more resources, political gains, newer technologies, non dependency on a single supplier, future know-hows from more fields, less favourisms etc


----------



## MZUBAIR

BENNY said:


> *The MMRCA Game​*
> The MMRCA Game
> 
> 
> The word MMRCA is again making lots of noise in defense circles as the Flight evaluation test report by the Indian Air Force has been submitted to the Ministry of Defense. The report consists of some 643 test points which were determined by the IAF have been submitted to the Ministry for approval. Old news apart, the biggest debate going around and quite for a while now is who will win the competition and gloat around at air shows and exhibitions. All the experts have made very good commentary on this debate; every debate made by them has some really good points and some really serious criticism.
> 
> All the six contenders need this contract as it will determine their future. *The F-16 wants to squeeze everything out of it and prove that it is still one of the best platform, the F/A-18SH needs a big contract from outside USA to ensure its future and that of Boeing, Rafael needs to open its export account, Typhoon needs the deal to offset its downsizing by sponsor nations and the entire future of MiG-35 and JAS-39 Gripen depends on winning the contract.* *MMRCA deal is not only worth a lot in terms of money but also the competitors future prospects and how the world sees it post-MMRCA depends on it.*
> 
> Now we know that the suppliers will do everything to win but who will India choose is a different game all together. IAF needs a fighter which will act as stop gap measure and prevent further force depletion. But the game is just a bit more complicated than that with players like Transfer of technology, life cycle cost, weaponry, politics, etc. playing hard. Now India wont get everything it wants because its not possible to hit a 6 on every ball and dismiss the entire opposition in 10 balls. Like any other captain India needs to choose the right players and right combination to win the game in the best possible manner without creating any controversy.
> 
> I have divided the winning formula into three game plans all of them should ensure victory at certain expense.
> 
> *Conclusion:*
> 
> *India has to choose the fighter keeping in mind its long term and short term objectives. If she wants to buy the best then Rafael and Typhoon are the one to look at, if she wants to achieve its political goals then Super Hornet is probably the best buy and if she wants to just spend less and get the job done then MiG-35, JAS-39 Gripen and F-16 are the aircraft which come cheap.*



Ur post is good but this will destroy the purpose of IAF.......
IAF already going to hav 250+ SU30
They want to replace Mig's, Jagiars n Mirages....
Dont u think basic need for MRCA is totally changed and its the worlds toughest thing to make every one happy.......*also India would like to block the sales to PAKISTAN from the losing competetor*


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## SpArK

MZUBAIR said:


> Ur post is good but this will destroy the purpose of IAF.......
> IAF already going to hav 250+ SU30
> They want to replace Mig's, Jagiars n Mirages....
> Dont u think basic need for MRCA is totally changed and its the worlds toughest thing to make every one happy.......*also India would like to block the sales to PAKISTAN from the losing competetor*



EF, Rafale,F-18- too pricey.
Mig-35 -Politics.
F-16- already a vendor
Gripen- already F-16 and JF-17 is similar.




So block who??


----------



## Gin ka Pakistan

BENNY said:


> EF, Rafale,F-18- too pricey.
> Mig-35 -Politics.
> F-16- already a vendor
> Gripen- already F-16 and JF-17 is similar.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So block who??



radars avionics  for JF

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## SpArK

Gin ka Pakistan said:


> radars avionics  for JF



All of them have AESA as a condition for the tender. Has anybody of them promised any radar or avionics of any of these fighters?


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## MZUBAIR

BENNY said:


> All of them have AESA as a condition for the tender. Has anybody of them promised any radar or avionics of any of these fighters?



As I say its poltical now.....
The fear of failear in the contest, blocks the AESA n weapons for JF.
If any one deals AESA n weapons for JF will lose to contriubte in MRCA.....but yes all of them hav in the mind that if they lose will surely invest in JF project.......

So all of us r waiting when India will descide MRCA winner


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## SpArK

MZUBAIR said:


> As I say its poltical now.....
> The fear of failear in the contest, blocks the AESA n weapons for JF.
> If any one deals AESA n weapons for JF will lose to contriubte in MRCA.....but yes all of them hav in the mind that if they lose will surely invest in JF project.......
> 
> So all of us r waiting when India will descide MRCA winner



Yes i too agree its political. But the current orders with the vendors are more than enough for sustaining the current position. So i dont see any tilt after the decision is taken.


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## rockstarIN

Gin ka Pakistan said:


> radars avionics  for JF



Average cost of one AESA radar is 3-4 million plus other expenses.

Can you buy 300 radars for that price for all JF?


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## Gin ka Pakistan

rockstar said:


> Average cost of one AESA radar is 3-4 million plus other expenses.
> 
> Can you buy 300 radars for that price for all JF?



No but for 60 advance JF , yes
Not All 300 be same , Like F-16 stated with block -15 to -60

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## SpArK

Gin ka Pakistan said:


> No but for 60 advance JF , yes
> Not All 300 be same , Like F-16 stated with block -15 to -60



So lets hope after the MRCA, offers of AESA comes from Boeing, Dassault, Cassadian, Saab, Lockheed or even Migoyan.


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## rockstarIN

Gin ka Pakistan said:


> No but for 60 advance JF , yes
> Not All 300 be same , Like F-16 stated with block -15 to -60



Then the cost of the JF will shoot up from 15 Million to 38-40 Million, including AESA+A2A & new engine etc. equal to J-10 price.

---------- Post added at 12:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:07 PM ----------

The German Air Force is grounding all 55 of its Eurofighters, made by EADS, out of concern for the functioning of the pilot ejector seats.

-News from Defense Industry Daily


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## Gin ka Pakistan

rockstar said:


> Then the cost of the JF will shoot up from 15 Million to 38-40 Million, including AESA+A2A & new engine etc. equal to J-10 price.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 12:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:07 PM ----------
> 
> The German Air Force is grounding all 55 of its Eurofighters, made by EADS, out of concern for the functioning of the pilot ejector seats.
> 
> -News from Defense Industry Daily



I think it has to do with getting western avionics


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## MZUBAIR

BENNY said:


> So lets hope after the MRCA, offers of AESA comes from Boeing, Dassault, Cassadian, Saab, Lockheed or even Migoyan.



But yes ...but first have to hope that some day MRCA will be descided.


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## MZUBAIR

rockstar said:


> Then the cost of the JF will shoot up from 15 Million to 38-40 Million, including AESA+A2A & new engine etc. equal to J-10 price.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 12:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:07 PM ----------
> 
> The German Air Force is grounding all 55 of its Eurofighters, made by EADS, out of concern for the functioning of the pilot ejector seats.
> 
> -News from Defense Industry Daily



New engine will be WS-13 turbofan ....wouldnt be too costly as Chinees always are looking for good quality in low price.
AESA radar would be of 4 to 5 m a piece ....and... AtoA weapons would be close to 0.2-0.4 m per piece

JF current price = $~17 m
Exclude price of RD-93 engine and KLJ radar = $~10m

JF-Block II price = ~$10m (A/C cost) + ~$5m (AESA radar)+ ~$10m (Engine) = $~25M...wouldnt expensie as ur saying.....

J-10 is desgined for different role n JF-17 has designed for different....
____________________________________

*In the end stay on the topic*


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## softtec

MZUBAIR said:


> New engine will be WS-13 turbofan ....wouldnt be too costly as Chinees always are looking for good quality in low price.
> AESA radar would be of 4 to 5 m a piece ....and... AtoA weapons would be close to 0.2-0.4 m per piece
> 
> JF current price = $~17 m
> Exclude price of RD-93 engine and KLJ radar = $~10m
> 
> JF-Block II price = ~$10m (A/C cost) + ~$5m (AESA radar)+ ~$10m (Engine) = $~25M...wouldnt expensie as ur saying.....
> 
> J-10 is desgined for different role n JF-17 has designed for different....
> ____________________________________
> 
> *In the end stay on the topic*



And who will give u their state of the art EASA radar(which they will use their respective front line fighter) without buying the fighter itself?Last time I heard that PAF was negotiating only for 2nd level france RC-400 radar.And top contries willn't give u their best to PAF, fearing being copied by Chinese.


----------



## Choppers

*MRCA aircraft deal to be signed soon: IAF chief*



> Air Chief Marshal P.V. Naik on Sunday said the contract for supply of 126 Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MCRA) to Indian Air Force will be signed soon.
> 
> &#8220;Evaluation of six aircraft from the bidding companies has been completed and details have been submitted to the Ministry of Defence which is expected to take a final decision soon,&#8221; Air Chief Marshal Naik told reporters on the sidelines of an event here.
> 
> The IAF has been holding trials for its $10-billion Medium MCRA tenders in which Boeing and Lockheed Martin from U.S., French D&#8217;Assault, Swedish SAAB, European consortium EADS and Russian MiG are contenders.
> 
> &#8220;The evaluation report will be discussed by the Cabinet Committee on Security, after which the process of awarding contract would be initiated,&#8221; he said.
> 
> He said that it would take another year to sign the contract and the delivery of first batch of 18 aircraft would be received within three years after the orders are placed.
> 
> The Defence Ministry has allocated Rs. 42,000 crore for the purchase of 126 aircraft.


The Hindu : News / National : MRCA aircraft deal to be signed soon: IAF chief


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## SpArK

Choppers said:


> *MRCA aircraft deal to be signed soon: IAF chief*
> 
> 
> The Hindu : News / National : MRCA aircraft deal to be signed soon: IAF chief



How soon is the big question.. we have already seen lots of "soons"..

Anyway i dont understand why it take a year to sign a contract?? Is the signing party needs learning Alphabets first or what??


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## rockstarIN

MZUBAIR said:


> AESA radar would be of 4 to 5 m a piece ....and... AtoA weapons would be close to 0.2-0.4 m per piece
> 
> JF current price = $~17 m
> Exclude price of RD-93 engine and KLJ radar = $~10m
> 
> JF-Block II price = ~$10m (A/C cost) + ~$5m (AESA radar)+ ~$10m (Engine) = $~25M...wouldnt expensie as ur saying.....




You don't want,

-electronic warfare suite

-infrared search and track (IRST) system

-all-color glass cockpit with large displays

-helmet-mounted cueing system

You need all the above to integrate the RADAR & weapon systems to the fighter. Then it will not be 25Million as you said


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## SpArK

*EUROFIGHTER EDGES AHEAD*







The Eurofighter's twin-EJ200 engines, seen here on full afterburner. Eurojet, which makes the EJ200, has bid lower than GE to provide India with 99 engines for the Tejas fighter

by Ajai Shukla
Business Standard, 20th Sept 10

Europe is poised to beat America in the tightly fought contest to sell India a next-generation engine for the homegrown Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA). Business Standard has learned from informed sources that, when the bids were opened last week, European consortium Eurojet, which bid US $666 million for ninety-nine EJ200 engines, has undercut US rival General Electric, which quoted US $822 million.

Both the engines had been earlier adjudged technically suitable for powering the Tejas Mark II. Therefore, according to the Ministry of Defence&#8217;s procurement rules, the vendor offering the lower price is to be handed the contract.

But the champagne corks are not yet popping at Eurojet. Both engine-makers have been asked for certain clarifications by Wednesday, and senior Eurojet executives are worried that this interregnum might be used by Washington to put pressure on New Delhi to opt for the American engine.

At stake here is far more than a few hundred million dollars. Industry experts say that India&#8217;s choice of engine for the Tejas will significantly shape the choice of a medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA), a US $11 billion contract for which the Indian Air Force is evaluating six fighters. Of these, the Eurofighter has twin EJ-200 engines, while GE F-414 engines power the US-built F/A-18, and Sweden&#8217;s Gripen NG fighters.

Says Air Vice Marshall (Retd) Kapil Kak, of the Centre for Air Power Studies, the IAF&#8217;s official think tank, &#8220;It is as clear as daylight. *Selecting the EJ200 for the Tejas would boost the Eurofighter&#8217;s prospects in the MMRCA contest. Its engines, which form about 15-20&#37; of the cost of a modern fighter, would be already manufactured in India for the Tejas LCA. And, for the same reason, rejecting the GE F-414 would diminish the chances of the two fighters that fly with that engine.*

In its tender for the Tejas engine, the MoD has specified that only ten engines could be built abroad.* All subsequent engines must be built in India, with the vendor transferring technology for their manufacture. If the EJ200 were being built in India for the Tejas, Eurofighter would benefit from a fully amortised engine line and also be entitled to offset credits for the &#8220;made-in-India&#8221; Eurofighter EJ200 engines.* *This would lower the price of the Eurofighter, a huge advantage for an aircraft that is regarded as high performance but expensive. Logistically too, the IAF would prefer an MMRCA with engines that were already on its inventory.
*


*Selection of the GE F-414 engine, on the other hand, would provide all these advantages to the vendors of the F/A-18 and the Gripen NG fighters. This is a key reason why Eurojet and GE have conducted their LCA engine campaign so competitively.
*



*Furthermore, the order for 99 engines for the Tejas Mark II is just a foot in the door to the Indian market. Given that each fighter goes through 2-3 engines during its operational lifetime, the 4-5 planned squadrons of Tejas Mark II (84-105 fighters) will actually need 200-300 of the new engines. The 126 MMRCAs could consume several hundred more.*

Business Standard has earlier reported (&#8220;EADS plans to ride the LCA into Indian market&#8221;, dated 12th Feb 09) the European aerospace industry&#8217;s plan to enhance its presence in India&#8217;s military aerospace programmes in order to benefit Eurofighter GmbH, in the MMRCA contest. The first move by EADS was to provide consultancy for accelerating the flight-testing of the Tejas; now comes the second move, by the Eurojet consortium, to bid aggressively and win the Tejas engine contract.

*MoD sources have expressed surprise that Eurojet could bid 20% cheaper than its rival, General Electric, which is widely regarded as a cost-effective manufacturer. In fact, conversations with EADS executives reveal that this is a well-considered business strategy.*

*Sources in the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) confirm that both the GE and Eurojet engines have fully met the technical requirements to power the Tejas Mark 2. The Eurojet EJ200 --- which the IAF favours --- is the more modern, lighter, flexible engine with greater potential for growth. The GE F-414 is heavier, but provides a little more power.*

Eurojet Turbo GmbH (or Eurojet) is a consortium between Avio (Italy); ITP (Spain); MTU Aero Engines (Germany); and Rolls-Royce (UK), which was set up to develop the EJ200 engine for the Eurofighter. It is headquartered in Hallbergmoos, Germany, just outside Munich. *The EJ200 and Eurofighter programmes generate approximately 100,000 jobs across Europe, directly and indirectly*.
POSTED BY BROADSWORD AT 07:53 
LABELS: DEFENCE PLANNING, DEFENCE PRODUCTION, FRANCE, HAL, INDIAN AIR FORCE, INDIAN NAVY, LCA, MMRCA, OFFSETS, RUSSIA, US MILITARY


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## SpArK

Broadsword: Eurofighter edges ahead in MMRCA race: Eurojet pips GE in LCA engine bid


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## ASHISH KAUSHIK

AND WHAT ABOUT DASSAULT RAFALE ?


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## redpearl75

EFT's cockpit....

Looks great and yes Rafael is one of the best but now everything depends upon our politicians... Let's hope for the best...

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## great white north

i hope the babus will select the TYPHOON,but again its cost will be an issue,the MOD says that after the shortlisting the lowest bidder shall be awarded the contract...if that is the case the chances of this awesome bird r a little less than others, jst my thought
feel free to disagree

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## redpearl75

great white north said:


> i hope the babus will select the TYPHOON,but again its cost will be an issue,the MOD says that after the shortlisting the lowest bidder shall be awarded the contract...if that is the case the chances of this awesome bird r a little less than others, jst my thought
> feel free to disagree



There is nothing to disagree brother as we all know that what are the conditions the Govt. has set. The govt's focus is on cost but not effectivess. Even if it would have been the cost-effectiveness factor then it's something good but all they are saying is that the lowest bidder will win and in that scenario Mig 35 is on top but lacks the edge when compared to Europian materal. There is no doubt that it's one of the finest modification of the mighty Mig 29 but still it's not as capable as the EFt or Rafale.. The next option according to the price would be the Gripen which is no less or no more than the Tejas.... And then comes the Americans with F 16 IN and F/A 18 SH among which, I suppose the Super Hornet is closing in fast to bang the deal as US Govt. is thriving hard to get into the Asian defence market and specially with India... We will be screwed as the recent past tells the complete story about Russian slow progress with teh Groshkov deal making it more than twice the price that was finalized... Russia is already into the 5th Gen FGFA development with 6 Billion $ investment from both the government which totals to around 12 billion and Im sure that the price will shoot up in the very near future... and will cross easilt the 20 Billion mark.. After that there is the MTA deal.. 120+ Mi17 chopper's deal etc, I suggest this time IAF goes for something new and different as using the same old Migs with whatever modifications won't add a punch to our force and will just increase the capacity to an extent.. We, if go for EFt or Rafale, would be the 1st nation in the Asian region to have those machines.. moreover they too are offering full tech-transfer and Europian Union has clearly and openly emphasized on the fact that they will be including India as a partner in the future developements of the EFT which I believe is going to mean a lot to us as the aircraft will never be old before it's actual life cycle's end... Rafale if selected would be a great choice as well... 

If you ask me personally then I feel that IAF should not opt for F/A 18s and IN should instead of the Mig 29K and IAF should go for either EFT or Rafale.. That would be the best combination as Super Hornet is basically a seaborne fighting machine though, can be used from ground as well... Gripen being one of the lightest and cheapest offers a good package in terms of avionics and weapon load... 

The bottom line is that whatever gets through this deal at the end will be something more of a political decision and not a tactical one as then the Govt. wouldn't have mentioned the cost thing making the lowest bidder the most favorable, at least on paper... let's just hope for the best..


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## jha

@red-pearl..

You never know what else is in offer...Who knows USA might give us a couple of dozens of Growlers just to sweeten the deal..


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## redpearl75

jha said:


> @red-pearl..
> 
> You never know what else is in offer...Who knows USA might give us a couple of dozens of Growlers just to sweeten the deal..



They sure won't give it for free, and moreover Grawlers are not our primary concern but the 126 fighter deal is, and concidering the Grawler possibility thinking of going for Super Hornets will be a mistake.... an MKI can perform the same job with the latest pods and a dozen of the same will be more than enough for us..... Still can't say anything now....


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## rockstarIN

redpearl75 said:


> They sure won't give it for free, and moreover Grawlers are not our primary concern but the 126 fighter deal is, and concidering the Grawler possibility thinking of going for Super Hornets will be a mistake.... an MKI can perform the same job with the latest pods and a dozen of the same will be more than enough for us..... Still can't say anything now....



Hardly we go for American planes, if that is the case, we would have selected F-35 than participating PAK-FA programme. Should look at long terms prospects also in arms deal, the future of military aviation is F-35 & PAK-FA and we already selected Russian side.

Rgds,


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## mehboobkz

There was news report decade ago that Pakistan had hardwired F-16 to make it nuke delivery compliant - what is Hardwired actually ?


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## marcos98

*NG Gripen Demo shows external tanks of greater capacity​*









In the pictures released today (September 21) by Saab, Gripen NG demo is seen flying with new disposable external tank of larger capacity.Instead of the 300 gallons of tank capacity usually transported by C and D versions of the Gripen, the new external tanks have a capacity of 450 gallons each.

The new tanks are seen in pictures, in combination with air-air missile IRIS-T and Meteor, as well as guided Paveway bombs.

Combined with additional spaces for domestic fuel and an engine more efficient in fuel consumption, the new tanks will allow the Gripen NG reach a substantially larger and more time "on station". Os novos tanques descart&#225;veis s&#227;o produzidos pela RUAG, na Su&#237;&#231;a. The new disposable tanks are manufactured by RUAG, Switzerland.


{Airpower }


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## redpearl75

mehboobkz said:


> There was news report decade ago that Pakistan had hardwired F-16 to make it nuke delivery compliant - what is Hardwired actually ?



*Hardwired control*

To execute instructions, a computer's processor must generate the control signals used to perform the processor's actions in the proper sequence. This sequence of actions can either be executed by another processor's software (for example in software emulation or simulation of a processor) or in hardware. Hardware methods fall into two categories: the processor's hardware signals are generated either by hardwired control, in which the instruction bits directly generate the signals, or by microprogrammed control in which a dedicated microcontroller executes a microprogram to generate the signals.


Before microprocessors, hardwired control usually was implemented using discrete components, flip-chips, or even rotating discs or drums. This can be generally done by two methods.

The classical method of sequential circuit design. It attempts to minimize the amount of hardwire, in particular, by using only log2p flip flops to realize a p state circuit. 
An approach that uses one flip flop per state. While expensive in terms of flip flops, this method simplifies controller unit design and debugging. 
In practice, processor control units are often so complex that no one design method by itself can yield a satisfactory circuit at an acceptable cost. The most acceptable design may consist of several linked, but independently designed, sequential circuits.

Microprogramming made it possible to re-wire, as it were, a computer by simply downloading a new microprogram to it. This required dedicated hardware or an external processor. For example, some of DEC's PDP-10 processors used a PDP-11 as a front-end which uploaded a microprogram to the main processor at boot time.

Traditionally, a sewing machines' stitch patterns and a washing machine's wash programs were implemented as hardwired, usually mechanical, controls. In modern machines, these are instead implemented as software which controls a computer which controls the machine hardware. This makes it possible, for example, to download additional stitch patterns for a small fee or upgrade a machine without having to buy a complete new machine. It also opens up for intellectual property rights issues.

The term hardwired is also used in a biological context to denote behaviour that is innately determined by an organism's genetically determined neurophysiology. Such hardwired behaviour would include the well-known knee-jerk reflex. Non-hardwired behaviour is dependent upon learning during the lifetime of the individual organism. As such the term is used in a way that is directly analogous to its use in computing.

That's what Wiki says.....

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## SBD-3

*IAF Evaluates Aircraft for MCRA Competition*


> India has completed an evaluation of six aircraft before it orders the final 126 multirole combat aircraft (MCRA) for the country's air force.
> 
> Air Chief Marshal PV Naik told the Hindu that the Indian Air Force has submitted the details of the evaluation to the Ministry of Defence, which is expected to take a final decision soon.
> 
> "The evaluation report will be discussed by the Cabinet Committee on Security, after which the process of awarding contracts would be initiated," Naik said.
> 
> The signing of contracts will take another year and the delivery of the first batch of 18 aircraft to the air force will be carried out within three years after the orders are placed, according to Naik.
> 
> Boeing, Lockheed Martin, D'Assault, SAAB, EADS and MiG are competing for the $10bn medium MCRA tender.


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## Dash

@ Redpearl



> There is nothing to disagree brother as we all know that what are the conditions the Govt. has set. The govt's focus is on cost but not effectivess.



Sukhoi aditional planes - $70 million each
Mirage deal - just upgrade per plane $40 million each
M117 howitzer - Most expensive ones.
Javelin Anti tank - Most expensive ones...

For an example - Goroskov deal..though a bad one.

The govt is actually not looking at cost of a deal, but the over all effectiveness by cost. If the effectiveness will be good enough, we dont mind paying the cost.

Even though eurofighter or Rafale cost a lot but their over all "harvest" over a period of time will actually reduce the cost. So dont worry about it.

Its not a cost of the fighter, its the life cycle cost and what we can get in return


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## mehboobkz

redpearl75 said:


> *Hardwired control*
> 
> To execute instructions, a computer's processor must generate the control signals used to perform the processor's actions in the proper sequence. This sequence of actions can either be executed by another processor's software (for example in software emulation or simulation of a processor) or in hardware. Hardware methods fall into two categories: the processor's hardware signals are generated either by hardwired control, in which the instruction bits directly generate the signals, or by microprogrammed control in which a dedicated microcontroller executes a microprogram to generate the signals.
> 
> 
> Before microprocessors, hardwired control usually was implemented using discrete components, flip-chips, or even rotating discs or drums. This can be generally done by two methods.
> 
> The classical method of sequential circuit design. It attempts to minimize the amount of hardwire, in particular, by using only log2p flip flops to realize a p state circuit.
> An approach that uses one flip flop per state. While expensive in terms of flip flops, this method simplifies controller unit design and debugging.
> In practice, processor control units are often so complex that no one design method by itself can yield a satisfactory circuit at an acceptable cost. The most acceptable design may consist of several linked, but independently designed, sequential circuits.
> 
> Microprogramming made it possible to re-wire, as it were, a computer by simply downloading a new microprogram to it. This required dedicated hardware or an external processor. For example, some of DEC's PDP-10 processors used a PDP-11 as a front-end which uploaded a microprogram to the main processor at boot time.
> 
> Traditionally, a sewing machines' stitch patterns and a washing machine's wash programs were implemented as hardwired, usually mechanical, controls. In modern machines, these are instead implemented as software which controls a computer which controls the machine hardware. This makes it possible, for example, to download additional stitch patterns for a small fee or upgrade a machine without having to buy a complete new machine. It also opens up for intellectual property rights issues.
> 
> The term hardwired is also used in a biological context to denote behaviour that is innately determined by an organism's genetically determined neurophysiology. Such hardwired behaviour would include the well-known knee-jerk reflex. Non-hardwired behaviour is dependent upon learning during the lifetime of the individual organism. As such the term is used in a way that is directly analogous to its use in computing.
> 
> That's what Wiki says.....



What has above got to do with nuclear delivery aircraft, even I am aware of such wiki stuff?


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## redpearl75

One more random images that I found... EFT....

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## SpArK

*US wants to expand military ties with India, eyes fighter deal *

WASHINGTON: Ahead of Indian Defence Minister A.K. Antony's visit here next week, the US has said it wants to expand its military ties with India in "mutually beneficial" ways with more exchanges and exercises. 

"I had a very good visit to India last year, and met with the defence minister and met the prime minister (Manmohan Singh)," Defence Secretary Robert Gates told reporters Wednesday when asked about what would be on the table during Antony's Sep 27-28 visit. 

"We are looking to expand this relationship in ways that are mutually beneficial," he said. "But I think we'll also be looking at ways in which we can expand our exchanges, exercises, and strengthen-further strengthen the relationship that we have." 

*Gates also indicated that he would talk with Antony about the $9.11 billion deal for the purchase of 126 multi-role combat aircraft for the Indian Air Force through an open competition*. 

*Two American fighter planes, F-16IN and F/A-18IN, a version of the Super Hornet, *are among six aircraft on offer in what has been touted as India's single largest defence deal ever. The Saab Gripen, Eurofighter Typhoon, Dassault Rafale and Mikoyan MiG-35 are the others in the running. 


"I'm sure that we'll - they have a big competition going on for a new modern fighter. We'll probably have some conversations about that," he said referring to the deal. 


*Asked about India's concerns about US restrictions on export of dual use high-technology items to India, Gates said it was high on on his list and he would like to see those restrictions eased. 
*


*"I think that, that is certainly high on our list, particularly in the context of export-import, or export controls, and my view of the importance of changing those export controls in ways that better protect the things that are really important and open up trade and allow US companies to sell abroad those things that technologies that are not critical," he said. 
*


"So, I think India certainly is high on our list in terms of a country that we would like, I would like to see those restrictions eased," Gates said. 

Chairman of the US Joint Chiefs of Staff, Admiral Mike Mullen, who jointly addressed the press conference with Gates, said "just the military-to-military relationship with India is exceptionally strong and growing". 

"We are very committed to that, and with all of our services. I was recently there and it has taken on a significance that is equal to so many other historic relationships for us, and we know that," he said. 

*"The Indian Ocean, we also know, is an incredibly important body of water; not just now, but also in the future*. So we recognise the importance of keeping that relationship as strong as it is, and also making it grow," Mullen added.


US wants to expand military ties with India, eyes fighter deal - The Economic Times


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## Dash

> "I think that, that is certainly high on our list, particularly in the context of export-import, or export controls, and my view of the importance of changing those export controls in ways that better protect the things that are really important and open up trade and allow US companies to sell abroad those things that technologies that are not critical," he said.



I hope they do something about is ASAP.
Else the Solahs and Atharas will be out for no reason.

EFT and Rafale are piticing for TOT being letest Gen planes but Uncle Sam is still stuck with CISMOA..what teh hecck...


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## Imran Khan

so when will done this MMRCA yaro please now close this thread i feel bor from last 3 years heheeehh


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## kingdurgaking

BENNY said:


> *US wants to expand military ties with India, eyes fighter deal *
> 
> WASHINGTON: Ahead of Indian Defence Minister A.K. Antony's visit here next week, the US has said it wants to expand its military ties with India in "mutually beneficial" ways with more exchanges and exercises.
> 
> "I had a very good visit to India last year, and met with the defence minister and met the prime minister (Manmohan Singh)," Defence Secretary Robert Gates told reporters Wednesday when asked about what would be on the table during Antony's Sep 27-28 visit.
> 
> "We are looking to expand this relationship in ways that are mutually beneficial," he said. "But I think we'll also be looking at ways in which we can expand our exchanges, exercises, and strengthen-further strengthen the relationship that we have."
> 
> *Gates also indicated that he would talk with Antony about the $9.11 billion deal for the purchase of 126 multi-role combat aircraft for the Indian Air Force through an open competition*.
> 
> *Two American fighter planes, F-16IN and F/A-18IN, a version of the Super Hornet, *are among six aircraft on offer in what has been touted as India's single largest defence deal ever. The Saab Gripen, Eurofighter Typhoon, Dassault Rafale and Mikoyan MiG-35 are the others in the running.
> 
> 
> "I'm sure that we'll - they have a big competition going on for a new modern fighter. We'll probably have some conversations about that," he said referring to the deal.
> 
> 
> *Asked about India's concerns about US restrictions on export of dual use high-technology items to India, Gates said it was high on on his list and he would like to see those restrictions eased.
> *
> 
> 
> *"I think that, that is certainly high on our list, particularly in the context of export-import, or export controls, and my view of the importance of changing those export controls in ways that better protect the things that are really important and open up trade and allow US companies to sell abroad those things that technologies that are not critical," he said.
> *
> 
> 
> "So, I think India certainly is high on our list in terms of a country that we would like, I would like to see those restrictions eased," Gates said.
> 
> Chairman of the US Joint Chiefs of Staff, Admiral Mike Mullen, who jointly addressed the press conference with Gates, said "just the military-to-military relationship with India is exceptionally strong and growing".
> 
> "We are very committed to that, and with all of our services. I was recently there and it has taken on a significance that is equal to so many other historic relationships for us, and we know that," he said.
> 
> *"The Indian Ocean, we also know, is an incredibly important body of water; not just now, but also in the future*. So we recognise the importance of keeping that relationship as strong as it is, and also making it grow," Mullen added.
> 
> 
> US wants to expand military ties with India, eyes fighter deal - The Economic Times




I really dont want this to go towards US.. $11+ billion will go in sewage if we are put in sanctions.. we shouldnt forget today Tejas is because of US only... a highly criticized project... 

further $11 billion is nothing for US it doesnt contribute to there GDP much... they can leave MMRCA alone ....


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## SpArK

*A very Nice F-18 video.*


AviationWeek | July 23, 2010
A sortie in the F/E-18F. Douglas Barrie's F/A-18F Flight. London bureau chief Douglas Barrie was given the opportunity of a Boeing F/A-18F Super Hornet sortie during this year's Farnborough air show, getting a taste of the aircraft's capabilities.


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## sancho

Not sure if somebody posted this before, but I didn't found it on the last few pages so...



> *Garuda IV : the Rafale was there !*
> 
> Not much has leaked on the Rafale participation to Garuda IV but the last issue of "Armee d'aujourd'hui" an official magazine of the french Armed Forces gives us a few clues :
> 
> (p.7) [...]After a few days of casual patrols to know each other, things get serious : Interception, cargo plane escort, air strikes... 3 or 4 missions are conducted each day. "More than 20 fighters can be in flight at the same time on the same scenario" [...] In addition, some fighters from other french air bases can come to complicate things, *like the Rafale figthers of the 1/7 "Provence" squadron from the BA113 of St Dizier.*[...]
> 
> (p.9) [...]*"The Indian pilots show a great interest for the french procedures and tactics". says Commander Armit Wij of the 8e indian pursuit squadron.
> During Garuda IV, 2 of them had the opportunity to fly the Rafale. Although a lot smaller than the Sukhoi, the french Air Force most advanced fighter "is very impressive" states the indian officer *[...]




An indian Pilot in a Rafale during Garuda IV:

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## super flanker

soaringphnx said:


> How can the French give us full ToT? I've heard some Rafale components are of U.S. origin. In fact all fighters in the competition except the MiG-35 use some american components.


french are giving us full tot and source codes
see for yourself in wikipedia


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## SpArK

http://www.lmaeronautics.com/f16in/F-16IN%20Spherical%20REZED%208-26.html

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## redpearl75

BENNY said:


> F-16IN Spherical REZED 8-26



I suppose that it's from some game itself and not a real image.... Still it's impressive...


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## redpearl75

What the hell is this.....?

---------- Post added at 02:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:31 PM ----------

Are they trying to tell that they will offer us the f16 XL... or as it says on the image: F 16 Block 70...?


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## redpearl75

And this would be the cockpit..

---------- Post added at 02:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:33 PM ----------







Some More.........


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## redpearl75

Rather have a look at this: http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-11955.html


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## redpearl75

Gripen weaponary....

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## redpearl75

Might be a repeat entry but worth having a a look....

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## redpearl75




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## Doga

F 18 sh is better deal if come with TOT and no restriction...


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## redpearl75

Doga said:


> F 18 sh is better deal if come with TOT and no restriction...



Well that's what's being speculated and is still unsure from America and they have always been hesitant in doing so... And moreover SH is not a great deal compared to Rafale and EFT as they offer a lot lot more than what American are right now... European Union has offered India a full partnership in the further developement of EFT future models and has also offered the full Tech transfer along with the AESA technology and same goes for Rafale as they too are kneen in doing so and showed much interest.... I would prefer SH for the carrier fleet in the years to come but not as a major fighting machine as an IAF fighter....

No offence...


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## redpearl75

and moreover Rafale is the best option as per the requirements and options that it offers....


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## soaringphnx

redpearl75 said:


> European Union has offered India a full partnership in the further developement of EFT future models and has also offered the full Tech transfer along with the AESA technology and same goes for Rafale as they too are kneen in doing so and showed much interest....





super flanker said:


> french are giving us full tot and source codes
> see for yourself in wikipedia



Actually, India will not be an equal member in the consortium. Also, the French haven't specified what they mean by going "beyond a buyer-seller relationship". Both the French and EADS cannot give us "full" or "100%" ToT. Some of the components used in the Rafale and Typhoon are of U.S. origin and those components will need clearance from the U.S. government before ToT. EADS and French can only offer us ToT for their components. Of course, the number of U.S. components used is very low compared to other contenders like the Gripen (and obviously F-18 and F-16 which are 100% U.S.) and it is a definite advantage. The only fighter in the competition which does not use any U.S. components is the MiG-35, so the Russians can offer us full ToT.

P.S. I agree with Redpearl that the Rafale appears to be the best option for the IAF, but it will come with it's own set of problems.


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## SpArK

soaringphnx said:


> Actually, India will not be an equal member in the consortium. Also, the French haven't specified what they mean by going "beyond a buyer-seller relationship". Both the French and EADS cannot give us "full" or "100%" ToT. Some of the components used in the Rafale and Typhoon are of U.S. origin and those components will need clearance from the U.S. government before ToT. EADS and French can only offer us ToT for their components. Of course, the number of U.S. components used is very low compared to other contenders like the Gripen (and obviously F-18 and F-16 which are 100% U.S.) and it is a definite advantage. The only fighter in the competition which does not use any U.S. components is the MiG-35, so the Russians can offer us full ToT.
> 
> P.S. I agree with Redpearl that the Rafale appears to be the best option for the IAF, but it will come with it's own set of problems.



France has even asked UAE to pay the expenses of future upgrades..

That is not a good sign of a good manufacturer.

Rafale pro-gramme will be in serious danger in future too if India does nt join and French will milk out each penny.

UAE May Ditch Rafale - Defense News


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## rockstarIN

BENNY said:


> France has even asked UAE to pay the expenses of future upgrades..
> 
> That is not a good sign of a good manufacturer.
> 
> Rafale pro-gramme will be in serious danger in future too if India does nt join and French will milk out each penny.
> 
> UAE May Ditch Rafale - Defense News



French is always greedy. Very commercial..!!


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## Agnostic_Indian

rockstar said:


> French is always greedy. Very commercial..!!


Commercial is better than political(read US).

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## soaringphnx

BENNY said:


> France has even asked UAE to pay the expenses of future upgrades..
> 
> That is not a good sign of a good manufacturer.
> 
> Rafale pro-gramme will be in serious danger in future too if India does nt join and French will milk out each penny.
> 
> UAE May Ditch Rafale - Defense News



The Americans have a trump card in the form of political gains. Moreover, the F-18SH is a fully developed mature fighter and is likely to be priced lower than the Rafale. So now with the future of their fighter in jeopardy, I expect the French to bring up new offers to make the Rafale deal look more attractive. They may even stop being so pricy.


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## rockstarIN

soaringphnx said:


> The Americans have a trump card in the form of political gains. Moreover, the F-18SH is a fully developed mature fighter and is likely to be priced lower than the Rafale. So now with the future of their fighter in jeopardy, I expect the French to bring up new offers to make the Rafale deal look more attractive. They may even stop being so pricy.



True.

All the MMRCA fighter's future propects depends upon Indian Decision..


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## cybertron

> All the MMRCA fighter's future propects depends upon Indian Decision..


feel the power)


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## sancho

soaringphnx said:


> Both the French and EADS cannot give us "full" or "100%" ToT. Some of the components used in the Rafale and Typhoon are of U.S. origin and those components will need clearance from the U.S. government before ToT. EADS and French can only offer us ToT for their components.



That's not correct, because all their main parts like radar, engine and most avionics are developed by themself, that's why they can offer up to 100% ToT of these parts.
The Gripen NG instead uses an US engine and the radar as well as IRST are mainly ITA/UK origin, that's why Saab is way more dependent on ToT clearance and other countries than the EF, or Rafale. 
It's even interesting that the Gripen NG uses even more foreign parts than the actual Gripen C/Ds because the earlier versions used a Swedish radar and the RM 12 engine is a version of the GE 404, but said to have up to 40% Volvo parts too.




BENNY said:


> France has even asked UAE to pay the expenses of future upgrades..
> 
> That is not a good sign of a good manufacturer.
> 
> Rafale pro-gramme will be in serious danger in future too if India does nt join and French will milk out each penny.
> 
> UAE May Ditch Rafale - Defense News



No, they wanted the UAE to pay for the upgrades they wanted, like higher thrust engines, other radar modes, more weapon stations and integrated weapons. If we want to customise the Rafale with Kaveri engine, or Indian weapons for example, we have to pay for it too, so that's nothing surprising. The Rafale F3+ like the French forces will get from 2012 onwards are funded with AESA, upgraded engines and avionics, but that's simply not enough for the UAE. 

Btw, the interest in the F18 SH is only a taktic of the UAE to get the best deal and lower costs, because it wasn't a real competition like the MMRCA yet. The only point where the Superhornet at the moment can offer more than the Rafale is radar, but the T/W ratio is less, the IRST is not integrated, the cockpit uses still some analog displays and more important for the UAE, the US will not agree to sell cruise missiles to them, or integrate the Black Shaheen into the F18SH. Also UAE wants Rafale only if France buys back the M2k-9s, but will the US by them back just to sell the F18SHs? Don't think so!

All the US can do here, is to offer a similar deal as they did with the F16 block 60. Let them pay a part of the upgrades (in this case possibly those that Boeing presented at Farnborough) and let them benefit from exports, but that's pretty much what France offers with the Rafale too.

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## gogbot

It seems to be going EuroFighter on the MoD front
It's not the best plane for the Job.
But it's been touted to be ahead in both the MMRCA and LCA engine Bid.

An EJ200 production line in India, Partnership in the EF consortium, Becoming permanent stakeholders. possibly also meeting international orders in the future. 

MoD might find the whole thing very appealing. Gives them a great deal of investment and also control over the plane as an asset. They would not just be buyers but Manufacturers.

I don't see how you can go beyond the buyer-seller relationship more than that.


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## Dash

> An EJ200 production line in India, Partnership in the EF consortium, Becoming permanent stakeholders. possibly also meeting international orders in the future.
> 
> MoD might find the whole thing very appealing. Gives them a great deal of investment and also control over the plane as an asset. They would not just be buyers but Manufacturers.



Though the offer looks irresistable, we need to be very careful here.
EADS which currently with EFT along with the 4 countries, they are actually not able to sort the technical specification of EFT or the sharing of developemntal cost themselves.

As a result of which this plane is not moving anywhere, even moving but slow.

They have made it very clear that India will not be a country which will have a say in decision making process in future and they will not treat us as partners in everything. What works best for the is to move the EJ2000 production line to India en route the touted TOT, will actually help them reduce the cost for making this plane (its an advantage for us too, but limited to only some 126 fighters we will buy). But if you go beyond and want a further modification or developemnt in EFT in future, you will actually go through too many routes to make things happen for the craft.

This is the real internal challange that lies with EFT. I dont see it as a "very" profitable or different than what others are offering. There is hardly anything beyond here.


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## gogbot

Dash said:


> Though the offer looks irresistable, we need to be very careful here.
> EADS which currently with EFT along with the 4 countries, they are actually not able to sort the technical specification of EFT or the sharing of developemntal cost themselves.
> 
> As a result of which this plane is not moving anywhere, even moving but slow.
> 
> They have made it very clear that India will not be a country which will have a say in decision making process in future and they will not treat us as partners in everything. What works best for the is to move the EJ2000 production line to India en route the touted TOT, will actually help them reduce the cost for making this plane (its an advantage for us too, but limited to only some 126 fighters we will buy). But if you go beyond and want a further modification or developemnt in EFT in future, you will actually go through too many routes to make things happen for the craft.
> 
> This is the real internal challange that lies with EFT. I dont see it as a "very" profitable or different than what others are offering. There is hardly anything beyond here.



I agree , but It still does not change the EF And Ej200 being touted as winners as of late.

And i can't help but think that this is because of the MoD looking at a very unique opportunity. Engine control is major issue for them. That alone is enough really. 
The idea that HAL Can do the Upgrades for the EuroFighter.


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## Dash

gogbot said:


> I agree , but It still does not change the EF And Ej200 being touted as winners as of late.
> 
> And i can't help but think that this is because of the MoD looking at a very unique opportunity. Engine control is major issue for them. That alone is enough really.
> The idea that HAL Can do the Upgrades for the EuroFighter.


Thats true from what it looks like too. To be very honest, every fighter here has some trade off and trade on. What we need to understand here is how much hassle we are avoiding in future.

EJ2000 is a much perferred engine that GE at this stage, its very modern and has growth potential. Even GE has growth too with EPE engine being offered in MRCA.

The only issue that is stopping us is the American trust deficit, if it wasnt there I am sure we would have already made a decision to buy from them.


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## redpearl75

What I feel is that no matter what happens this time the decision this time won't be political as the force won't let that happen.... Indians have already suffered a lot due the politicaly biased decisions over tha past 10 years... And now the force seeks something that's really worth procuring... No matter what the media says or the people there says I have a feeling that this time the deal would be in favor of the defence and not just the government.....


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## sancho

gogbot said:


> And i can't help but think that this is because of the MoD looking at a very unique opportunity. Engine control is major issue for them. That alone is enough really.



Hi gogbot

True, the same engine for LCA MK2 and MMRCA would be a nice advantage for IAF in terms of maintenance and control like you said, but wouldn't we get the same if we choose GE 414 and F18SH? So we can't say that this is a reason for the EF to win MMRCA right? Imo IAF is not really taken the engine issue as a real important point for MMRCA, otherwise they would have invited the Kaveri - Snecma engine and the RD33 MK into the LCA engine competition too.
Moreover do you think that this advantage is enough to equalise the downsides of the EF for our forces?

- AESA radar not ready in time for at least the first squadron
- the weakest A2G capabilities of all MMRCAs
- the highest costs of all MMRCAs
- and no naval version available for IN
- all EF partners are reducing their orders and some even plan to cancell the T3B completelly, which makes the future development of the EF and further upgrades difficult


For LCA MK2 the EJ 200 engine would be a great addition, but just licence producing more foreign engines for MMRCAs does not really help our own industry, like Dash said, it's just a way for the EF partners to reduce costs by outsourcing parts of the production to India. If the EF partners instead would offer such a deal like the French did, to co-develop the Kaveri engine and integrate it in their fighters too it would be way more interesting deal.
For example 99 x EJ 200 for LCA MK2 and 36 x for the first EF squad, but all licence produced EF squads will get a co-developed Kaveri-EJ engine with 3D TVC and SC features.

That is one reason I prefer the Rafale deal, because it offers not only licence production of foreign parts, but the possibility to integrate indigenous parts too and that should be the aim of these deals. Not to remain a simple buyer, or producer of foreign parts only, but to get as much involvement as possible, be it in terms of partnerships, or through co-developments / JVs.

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## Tejas-MkII

sancho said:


> For example 99 x EJ 200 for LCA MK2 and 36 x for the first EF squad, but all licence produced EF squads will get a co-developed Kaveri-EJ engine with 3D TVC and SC features.



i very much agree with the quoted part, if Euro consortium agree to this part then it will make their deal more interesting and competitive.And in the present context only france possibly can offer this type of deal, which is very much possible if IN also like to have Rafale for their CBG, then this imginaton can become reality.


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## jha

*Australian F/A-18F Pre-wired For EA*​






*Australias decision to pre-wire half of its F/A-18Fs for the electronic-attack mission is generating interest in the option among potential international buyers of the Super Hornet,* Boeing says.

The first of 12 aircraft equipped with wiring for conversion to the electronic-attack mission has rolled off the production line in St. Louis and will be delivered to Australia by years end, says Kory Mathews, F/A-18 programs vice president.

*Pre-fitting the F/A-18F with the same wiring as the EA-18G Growler allows the Super Hornet to be modified later to perform the electronic awareness and/or electronic-attack roles*, Mathews says.

_For electronic awareness, the aircraft would be equipped with the ALQ-218 radar-band and ALQ-227 communications-band receivers to enable it to monitor, analyze and locate potentially hostile emitters. The aircraft could act on the information or send it to other air or ground users. Adding the ALQ-99 jamming pods would give the modified Super Hornet the full electronic-attack capability of the EA-18G._

Pre-wiring is a cost-effective option for a customer considering electronic awareness and/or electronic attack, Mathews says. Internationally, there is curiosity to understand what the option provides, but no formal discussions yet, he adds.

Electronic awareness and electronic attack are separate functions, Mathews says. Jamming is important, but there is significant operational utility in enhanced electronic awareness.

There is no downside to pre-wiring the F/A-18F to provide the option for future conversion, he maintains. The additional cabling adds about 300 lb. to the aircraft, otherwise there is no difference.

Boeing, meanwhile, is moving ahead with planned upgrades to the F/A-18E/F. Flight tests of the distributed targeting system began this month. The upgrade adds an image-exploitation processor and mass memory unit.

*The system compares synthetic-aperture radar maps from the aircrafts active-array radar with stored geo-registered SAR maps and generates precise target coordinates for GPS-guided weapons. The capability is to become operational in 2012.*

_This is to be followed by a podded infrared search-and-track (IRST) sensor and enhancements to the APG-79 active, electronically scanned array radar and sensor-fusion capabilities._

*Boeing also is offering a range of upgrades to potential international customers, including conformal fuel tanks, large-area cockpit displays, stealthy weapons pods, enhanced-performance engine (EPE), embedded IRST and distributed aperture systems.*

The only one of these formally proposed so far, Mathews says, is the *increased-thrust F414EPE in the F/A-18E/F offered to India for the 126-fighter Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft requirement.*

Australian F/A-18F Pre-wired For EA | AVIATION WEEK


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## SpArK

F-18 surely looks better now with future upgrade programs and cost effectiveness.

EF and Rafale , I guess. 

Clinton makes a pitch for India to buy American defence equipment - Winnipeg Free Press


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## rockstarIN

BENNY said:


> F-18 surely looks better now with future upgrade programs and cost effectiveness.
> 
> EF and Rafale , I guess.
> 
> Clinton makes a pitch for India to buy American defence equipment - Winnipeg Free Press



NO US systems pls..

Who knows they secretly plant devices inside the plane to track thru GPS...!!

Cant trust them


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## Desi Sher

rockstar said:


> NO US systems pls..
> 
> Who knows they secretly plant devices inside the plane to track thru GPS...!!
> 
> Cant trust them



As if we do not have the jammer..... Israelis are still our friends remember???


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## rockstarIN

Desi Sher said:


> As if we do not have the jammer..... Israelis are still our friends remember???



Who knows there are more modern technologies which was secretly kept by US to track down?


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## Desi Sher

rockstar said:


> Who knows there are more modern technologies which was secretly kept by US to track down?



Come on they would not be stupid Enough to do that, it would Bring down there defense Exports if found out....


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## luckyyy

BENNY said:


> F-18 surely looks better now with future upgrade programs and cost effectiveness.



how F-18 looks cost effective when the engine itself is so costly , $8.3ml for one GE F414 engine compare to $6.7ml for EJ200 ..
( based on they bid for LCA engine tender )

if an aircraft has to go engine replecement twice in it's lifecycle the life-cycle cost of F-18 is more then $15ml to eurofighter on engine itself...


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## SpArK

rockstar said:


> NO US systems pls..
> 
> Who knows they secretly plant devices inside the plane to track thru GPS...!!
> 
> Cant trust them



Track us through GPS??? and for what?? to attack us??? or to say hiii to the pilot??? I dont see US and India going into a conflict..

And also we will be having /integrating our own GPS system by then,.!!!


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## SpArK

luckyyy said:


> how F-18 looks cost effective when the engine itself is so costly , $8.3ml for one GE F414 engine compare to $6.7ml for EJ200 ..
> ( based on they bid for LCA engine tender )
> 
> if an aircraft has to go engine replecement twice in it's lifecycle the life-cycle cost of F-18 is more then $15ml to eurofighter on engine itself...



Do you know that costs it costs £90,000 per hour to keep it in the air in case of EF???


And have u heard of future plans of F-18 super hornets??

Livefist - The Best of Indian Defence: Boeing Offers India "Super Hornet International Roadmap"



Boeing displays manned F/A-XX concept jet


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## luckyyy

BENNY said:


> Do you know that costs it costs &#163;90,000 per hour to keep it in the air in case of EF???
> 
> 
> And have u heard of future plans of F-18 super hornets??
> 
> Livefist - The Best of Indian Defence: Boeing Offers India "Super Hornet International Roadmap"
> 
> Boeing displays manned F/A-XX concept jet




no, it was not &#163;90,000 but &#163;73,000 ...and it's not for one eurofighter but for three....and it includes all the other expences on logistic and crew members to take them to verious airshows/trails ..


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## rockstarIN

BENNY said:


> Track us through GPS??? and for what?? to attack us??? or to say hiii to the pilot??? I dont see US and India going into a conflict..
> 
> And also we will be having /integrating our own GPS system by then,.!!!



the logic is like installing bugs in the software by the programmer itself.

I heard earlier that during Argentina-England war, brits got the source codes of exocite missles from french to escape from tht.(no sources/links though with me)


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## rockstarIN

BENNY said:


> Do you know that costs it costs £90,000 per hour to keep it in the air in case of EF???
> 
> 
> And have u heard of future plans of F-18 super hornets??
> 
> Livefist - The Best of Indian Defence: Boeing Offers India "Super Hornet International Roadmap"
> 
> 
> 
> Boeing displays manned F/A-XX concept jet



Benny 90k/hr is really inflated amount., i heard 15k for MKI somewhere in this fourm(flying cost only)


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## redpearl75

BENNY said:


> Do you know that costs it costs £90,000 per hour to keep it in the air in case of EF???
> 
> 
> And have u heard of future plans of F-18 super hornets??
> 
> Livefist - The Best of Indian Defence: Boeing Offers India "Super Hornet International Roadmap"
> 
> 
> 
> Boeing displays manned F/A-XX concept jet



It looks interesting and very helpful if it goes as planned but we are still unsure about the future but yes, if India goes in favor of the Hornets the US will have to have serious concerns over everything that's planned and promised and that's something which no one can be sure of... But going for 126 Hornets won't be a good deal either as we need to have a blend of at least two fighter aircrafts.... Since the total cound is going beyond 200, all should never be only one selection......


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## Leonidas

BENNY said:


> Do you know that costs* it costs £90,000 per hour to keep it in the air in case of EF*???
> 
> 
> And have u heard of future plans of F-18 super hornets??
> 
> Livefist - The Best of Indian Defence: Boeing Offers India "Super Hornet International Roadmap"
> 
> 
> 
> Boeing displays manned F/A-XX concept jet



Can you back up the bold part with some source? AFAIK, its around 14000 *euros* per hour. I read it on some other forum, may be you can provide the correct information.


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## kingdurgaking

BENNY said:


> Do you know that costs it costs £90,000 per hour to keep it in the air in case of EF???
> 
> 
> And have u heard of future plans of F-18 super hornets??
> 
> Livefist - The Best of Indian Defence: Boeing Offers India "Super Hornet International Roadmap"
> 
> 
> 
> Boeing displays manned F/A-XX concept jet



I am not against US deals.. but i am against only MMRCA... while rest of the defence deals are fine as it is not going to impact much.. MMRCA will be backbone and it is very vital atleast near chinese borders... We cant keep them grounded at anycost and is very much bound to be under sanctions as we dont know which US president has got what policies...

While Europe need to trade with us, as there economy is weak ... even during good times we will have a edge over them atleast on economy side... they may impose sanction but we can break that easily by diplomacy which is not that easy with US...

so no no for MMRCA only


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## SpArK

rockstar said:


> Benny 90k/hr is really inflated amount., i heard 15k for MKI somewhere in this fourm(flying cost only)



These RAF Typhoons are worth their weight in gold - Telegraph



> The Typhoon has been the object of much criticism from its detractors in the military, who regard it as a costly Cold War relic with no relevance for the combat operations Britain has undertaken in Iraq and Afghanistan. It is also fiendishly expensive. Each aircraft costs &#163;69 million, and officials estimate it costs &#163;90,000 per hour to keep it in the air. Not surprisingly, the Treasury is casting covetous glances at the RAF&#8217;s 65-strong Typhoon fleet in its desperate search for budget cuts.



&#163;69 million= UK price


PS; sorry for the late reply... in middle of job..


----------



## sancho

BENNY said:


> F-18 surely looks better now with future upgrade programs and cost effectiveness.
> 
> EF and Rafale , I guess.
> 
> Clinton makes a pitch for India to buy American defence equipment - Winnipeg Free Press



Depends on who will pay for the upgrades and what will the upgraded F18 SH cost?
Going by the figures reported from Brazil, the actual F18SH costs $54 million in flyaway condition and a similar Rafale $78 millions. But the difference should shrink to some extend with the proposed upgrades, not to forget that so far not even USN is ready to pay for it.


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## SpArK

sancho said:


> Depends on who will pay for the upgrades and what will the upgraded F18 SH cost?
> Going by the figures reported from Brazil, the actual F18SH costs $54 million in flyaway condition and a similar Rafale $78 millions. But the difference should shrink to some extend with the proposed upgrades, not to forget that so far not even USN is ready to pay for it.



But they do have an upgrade path which was mentioned earlier unlike most and moreover the production lines are busy with orders of Australia and US navy one's which was announced this week.
If its getting orders from US itself we will surely see upgrades regularly.. Dont u think????

Already we have good relationships with Boeing and they have many JV's here.


http://www.defence.pk/forums/u-s-foreign-affairs/74567-boeing-gets-5-3-bln-fighter-jet-contract-us-navy.html



Boeing Plans Sixth Generation Fighter With Block 3 Super Hornet | AVIATION WEEK


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## marcos98

*SAAB optimistic of making it to MMRCA downlist of IAF​*
CAPE TOWN: As India's biggest defence contract of $ 10 billion to acquire 126 (MMRCA) nears final stages, the lone Swedish contender is optimistic of making it to the downlist.

Expressing optimism, SAAB executives said that their India campaign was enthusing them to enter the lucrative fighter market in the Asian region where many other nations are planning major acquisitions.

The Swedish company executives are hopeful that the Indian Government would shortlist the competitors by December to bring the number of contenders from six to two or three.

The Gripen is in contention with American F-16 and F-18/A Super Hornets, French Rafale, Russian MiG 35 and Eurofighter Typhoon.

The company executives claimed that the Gripen had come through well in Indian flight trials held at Leh and Jaisalmer.

"The trials were a complete success. We are very happy with the trials that went off early 2010. We are looking forward to the next steps and we are hopeful," Eddy de la Motte, Director, Gripen for India, told PTI on the sidelines of the Africa Aerospace and Defence expo 2010.

Gripen, like other five contenders, had undergone trials at Bangalore, Leh and Jaisalmer for performance assessment trials over varying terrain and weather conditions over six months that ended in March-April this year.

*La Motte said the Indian Air Force pilots, who tested the 1,320 mile-per-hour jet, were a "really professional team" and the flight evaluation was "very demanding."*

Gripen's Campaign Director and Test Pilot Magnus Lewis-Olsson said SAAB was looking forward to winning the Indian contract as it would mean a lot for the company.

"If you win India, that would be a strong signal for the world," he said.

The Gripen fighter aircraft, which is in service in the Swedish and South African Air Force, flew for 12 to 15 hours for eight days and also did single sorties during the trials.

Under the MMRCA deal, India will acquire 126 aircraft in 86 single-seater and 40 twin-engine seat configurations. It plans to procure 18 aircraft in flyaway conditions and produce 106 locally under license through technology transfer.


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## sancho

BENNY said:


> But they do have an upgrade path which was mentioned earlier unlike most and moreover the production lines are busy with orders of Australia and US navy one's which was announced this week.
> If its getting orders from US itself we will surely see upgrades regularly.. Dont u think????
> 
> Already we have good relationships with Boeing and they have many JV's here.



Don't mistake the upgrade proposal of Boeing, with a fixed upgrade of the USN F18SH, it just shows what Boeing might be able to offer. The production lines are busy, mainly with remaining F18SH Growlers for USN (Australias 24 doesn't make a big difference) and more F18SH could be ordered, if F35 is even more delayed. However, the US Gov wants to get the F35 done as soon as possible and don't want to invest in further orders, or upgrades of older design fighters. Of course they will have to upgrade the older F18SH someday, but not everything what Boeing presented might be important for them if they have F35. The higher thrust engine for example is reported to be not important for USN now, that's why Boeing is searching for an export customer who could fund it (India, possibly UAE).

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## kingdurgaking

BENNY said:


> But they do have an upgrade path which was mentioned earlier unlike most and moreover the production lines are busy with orders of Australia and US navy one's which was announced this week.
> If its getting orders from US itself we will surely see upgrades regularly.. Dont u think????
> 
> Already we have good relationships with Boeing and they have many JV's here.
> 
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/u-s-foreign-affairs/74567-boeing-gets-5-3-bln-fighter-jet-contract-us-navy.html
> 
> 
> 
> Boeing Plans Sixth Generation Fighter With Block 3 Super Hornet | AVIATION WEEK




I think we are not offered 18G we are offered E/F.. am i missing something?


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## Dash

Actually IAF is so tight lipped about what they are selecting, it is very difficlut to know what we are going for.

you cant even say like Brazil that your president is favoring French, not eeven one in MOD which gives a clue or even IAF. The last time I checked I find IAF has praised all planes, saying everyone is good. Every company in competition has said IAF has hailed their plane.

On top of that you have Shukla and Aroor who keep spreading rumors now and then.

What the heck, life has become very difficult


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## anathema

kingdurgaking said:


> I think we are not offered 18G we are offered E/F.. am i missing something?



I dont believe its a question of what we were offered. India raised RFP for MRCA - Boeing responded with SH E/F. If India goes onto to request for a EW capable plane - Boeing would very well accommodate the request if it helps them win the contract for MRCA.

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## dbc

sancho said:


> Don't mistake the upgrade proposal of Boeing, with a fixed upgrade of the USN F18SH, it just shows what Boeing might be able to offer. The production lines are busy, mainly with remaining F18SH Growlers for USN (Australias 24 doesn't make a big difference) and more F18SH could be ordered, if F35 is even more delayed. However, the US Gov wants to get the F35 done as soon as possible and don't want to invest in further orders, or upgrades of older design fighters. Of course they will have to upgrade the older F18SH someday, but not everything what Boeing presented might be important for them if they have F35. The higher thrust engine for example is reported to be not important for USN now, that's why Boeing is searching for an export customer who could fund it (India, possibly UAE).



The F/A-18 F-414 Enhanced Durability Engine (EDE) is fully funded by the US Navy, the difference between the F-414 EDE and the F-414 EPE (Enhanced Performance Engine) is an additional fan for greater airflow, resulting in a 20 percent thrust improvement.

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## luckyyy

Dash said:


> Actually IAF is so tight lipped about what they are selecting, it is very difficlut to know what we are going for.
> 
> you cant even say like Brazil that your president is favoring French, not eeven one in MOD which gives a clue or even IAF. The last time I checked I find IAF has praised all planes, saying everyone is good. Every company in competition has said IAF has hailed their plane.
> 
> On top of that you have Shukla and Aroor who keep spreading rumors now and then.
> 
> What the heck, life has become very difficult



after all , all the subsystems , weapons , radar , EW suit , data link will be from DRDO...

so what actually IAF looking to buy through MMRCA ..


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## redpearl75

luckyyy said:


> after all , all the subsystems , weapons , radar , EW suit , data link will be from DRDO...
> 
> so what actually IAF looking to buy through MMRCA ..



I guess airframes and engines..... lol....


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## marcos98

*Super Hornet price tag spiraling ... downward?​*





Super Hornet price tag spiraling ... downward? - The DEW Line
Five billion dollar paydays are rare even for a US defense contractor, so Boeing is probably feeling pretty good today.

The US Navy yesterday gave $5.3 billion to Boeing to build 124 F/A-18E/Fs and EA-18Gs over the next five years. That's not quite as good as Lockheed Martin's agreement last week on LRIP-4 for F-35, which, the company says, will pay more than $5 billion to build 32 aircraft over only one year. Of course, the Super Hornet fleet has a decade of production maturity and lacks very low observable (VLO) stealth, so the cost differential is not unexpected.

But it should be noted the pricing trend looks good for the Super Hornet after a year of uncertainty. The Department of Defense played hardball with Boeing for several months on the third multi-year contract, complaining that Boeing's initial price offered only 7% savings compared to a single-year purchase. The DOD requires at least 10% savings to approve a multi-year, which trades away the department's budgetary flexibility for marginal cost savings.

I researched Boeing's press releases to find out how much the Super Hornet's price has changed over the last decade. Even as the company introduced the Block II Super Hornet/Growler with active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, the price has steadily declined. Keep in mind these figures don't include 'actuals' -- Congressional plus-ups make true cost comparisons impossible. But the trend is clear.

* MYP 1 (June 2000) -- orders 222 aircraft for $8.9 billion, or $40.09 million per copy. Adjusted for inflation based on consumer price index: $49.45 million (2009 dollars)
* MYP 2 (December 2003) -- orders 210 aircraft for $8.6 billion, or $40.95 million per copy. Adjusted for inflation based on consumer price index: $47.65 million (2009 $), a 7.6% decrease
* * MYP 3 (September 2010) -- orders 124 aircraft for $5.3 billion, or $42.72 million per copy, a 10.4% decline compared to MYP-2 and 13.6% decline compared to MYP-1

* Boeing MYP contracts exclude government furnished equipment, which includes engines*

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## luckyyy

marcos98 said:


> *Super Hornet price tag spiraling ... downward?*
> 
> The US Navy yesterday gave $5.3 billion to Boeing to build 124 F/A-18E/Fs and EA-18Gs over the next five years.
> 
> * MYP 3 (September 2010) -- orders 124 aircraft for $5.3 billion, or $42.72 million per copy,
> ** Boeing MYP contracts exclude government furnished equipment, which includes engines*



so prectically $42.72 million per copy for airframe only , no engine , no radar , etc..

* very costly *


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## redpearl75

I guess Radar would be from the supplier.. We are not that much fast in making one yet... and more or less all the contenders are offering AESA and those who are not are on the verge of creating one and then it's on offer.. Let's see... From Indian side we have only Astra BVR AtoA missile and rest of all are of either Russian or French origin.... And it would be a next to impossible thing asking the Americans to make their jets compatible with the Russian weapons... lol... But the rest Im not sure of.... The subsystems too will not be solely of Indian origin and it would be of multi-national origin mainly Israel, french and Indian.... take for example the MKIs that we operate, it has all- Russian, indian, French and, Israeli systems incorporated... and the same will be for these contenders as they wil have to provide an open end platform to incorporate all these things.....

and the Data link and the EW suit, that I believe India is well capable of incorporating on these aircraft.....


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## rockstarIN

Is it sure that Mig-35 is out from the competition?


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## redpearl75

rockstar said:


> Is it sure that Mig-35 is out from the competition?



Who said or claimed that...?


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## redpearl75

How does it look by the way...?


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## redpearl75




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## Dash

luckyyy said:


> after all , all the subsystems , weapons , radar , EW suit , data link will be from DRDO...
> 
> so what actually IAF looking to buy through MMRCA ..


The chasis??...just kidding.

Not the radar and EW suits, mostly the Link2, coz they will integrate these planes to indian GPS.

This deal is about new things as hyped, lets see what we are getting.


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## rockstarIN

redpearl75 said:


> Who said or claimed that...?



Coz no news, no discussion, all r talking abt EF, Rafele & F-18 only..


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## sancho

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> The F/A-18 F-414 Enhanced Durability Engine (EDE) is fully funded by the US Navy, the difference between the F-414 EDE and the F-414 EPE (Enhanced Performance Engine) is an additional fan for greater airflow, resulting in a 20 percent thrust improvement.



Yes, but that part of the development is not funded and USN won't, they just wait for an international customer to do so. USN aims for less costs and that's why they focus on the EDE only.
If the news about LCA MK2 engine is correct, it will be very interesting which version of the GE 414 will be chosen. If they pay for EPE, I'm sure F18SH deal is also sealed. 

Another win for the politics! 




rockstar said:


> Coz no news, no discussion, all r talking abt EF, Rafele & F-18 only..



No fighter is officially out yet, but the chances of the Mig are more than low for obvious reasons (all eggs in one basket, delayed, Mig 21 & 27 crash record, high maintenance costs...).


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## rockstarIN

LCA engines will be supplied by GE, its official

GE Aviation to Deliver 20 GE F414 Engines for HAL Tejas Mark II; Deliveries Begin in 2014 | India Defence

Now, F-18 chances are more coz of same engine


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## sancho

rockstar said:


> LCA engines will be supplied by GE, its official
> 
> GE Aviation to Deliver 20 GE F414 Engines for HAL Tejas Mark II; Deliveries Begin in 2014 | India Defence
> 
> Now, F-18 chances are more coz of same engine



Let's wait and see, the media is pretty fast in jumping into conclusions as we saw so often.

For Gripen and F18SH it is indeed an advantage now, for EF it is a big downer, for Rafale, F16IN and the Mig nothing has changed.


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## SpArK

*Eurojet Reacts To Defeat, Says Decision Means Tejas Won't Get Best Engine
​*







Eurojet Gmbh has accepted defeat in the Tejas Mk-II engine competition. Just received this statement from the company:

"We respect the decision taken by the Price Negotiating Committee. However, we regret that the Committee has decided against the most capable & latest generation engine on offer for the LCA-Tejas.

Together with our consortium partner companies and their respective governments we will carefully study the decision and its implications. We expect further details from Indian authorities and more information about the process leading to the announced selection. This decision does not affect our strong commitment to India. We will continue to explore true and trusted partnerships here which will support the development of a strong Indian aerospace and defence industry."


Livefist - The Best of Indian Defence: Eurojet Reacts To Defeat, Says Decision Means Tejas Won't Get Best Engine

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## soaringphnx

sancho said:


> Ythe chances of the Mig are more than low for obvious reasons (all eggs in one basket, delayed, *Mig 21 & 27 crash record*, high maintenance costs...).



I don't think MiG-21 and MiG-27 crashes would lead the MiG-35 being disqualified. The MiG-21 and MiG-27 have frequent crashes simply because they are too old - so things tend to get glitchy. Moreover, some of the MiG crashes were due to pilot error. But the IAF has had a good experience with MiG-29s (maintainance aside).


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## Dash

soaringphnx said:


> I don't think MiG-21 and MiG-27 crashes would lead the MiG-35 being disqualified. The MiG-21 and MiG-27 have frequent crashes simply because they are too old - so things tend to get glitchy. Moreover, some of the MiG crashes were due to pilot error. But the IAF has had a good experience with MiG-29s (maintainance aside).


There are other nations who have Mig21 and 27s too, we hardly get any news of crashes from them. Its because we use them more an we dont have spare parts for them..


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## soaringphnx

Dash said:


> There are other nations who have Mig21 and 27s too, we hardly get any news of crashes from them. Its because we use them more an we dont have spare parts for them..



I agree completely. But i don't this would be a deciding factor regarding MiG-35 selection in MRCA.


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## sancho

soaringphnx said:


> I don't think MiG-21 and MiG-27 crashes would lead the MiG-35 being disqualified. The MiG-21 and MiG-27 have frequent crashes simply because they are too old - so things tend to get glitchy. Moreover, some of the MiG crashes were due to pilot error. But the IAF has had a good experience with MiG-29s (maintainance aside).



Not to disqualify them, but it will have an impact in the decision for sure. Delivery of spares, problems with Mig 27 engines are important issues and the experience with Sukhoi in terms of quality and aftersale supports are clearly better. Of course it's not all Russian faults, but Mig as a company will have to prove themself as reliable again.
However, it is just one of several problems that the Mig 35 has to face.


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## luckyyy

MIG-35 has a chance to win only at the Price Negotiating Committee .

but will it reach to that stage , that a question !


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## Dash

soaringphnx said:


> I agree completely. But i don't this would be a deciding factor regarding MiG-35 selection in MRCA.


This would be Soaringphnx.

Experience with Russia staring from upgrades for Migs to INS Vikramaditya, Nerpa sub....and everything, has made them loose their credibility over a period of time. 

This is will surely in the back of everybody's mind. Not a very big factor when IAF looks at Mig 35 but still a factor for its rejection.


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## dbc

sancho said:


> Yes, but that part of the development is not funded and USN won't, they just wait for an international customer to do so. USN aims for less costs and that's why they focus on the EDE only.
> If the news about LCA MK2 engine is correct, it will be very interesting which version of the GE 414 will be chosen. If they pay for EPE, I'm sure F18SH deal is also sealed.
> 
> Another win for the politics!


Politics? The DRDO choice was a no brainer, by virtue of a later design the Rolls Royce offering may be more technically advanced but the Euro engine is longer, requiring an expensive and risky redesign of either the LCA or the engine itself - making an engine shorter is not a trivial task. The F-414 on the other hand is dimensionally identical to the GE 404 currently powering the LCA apart from a redesign of the air intake the F-414 does not impose any other change.

As I said before the difference between the EDE and EPE is the addition of one fan to increase air flow - I do not expect GE to require customer R&E funding for this - GE/Boeing is not Snecma/Dassault a company like Boeing makes nearly twice the MMRCA contract value in revenue each quarter.

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## Capt.Popeye

Originally Posted by Death.By.Chocolate
"Politics? The DRDO choice was a no brainer, by virtue of a later design the Rolls Royce offering may be more technically advanced but the Euro engine is longer, requiring an expensive and risky redesign of either the LCA or the engine itself - making an engine shorter is not a trivial task. The F-414 on the other hand is dimensionally identical to the GE 404 currently powering the LCA apart from a redesign of the air intake the F-414 does not impose any other change."

Hi DBC,
Thanks for injecting a technical perspective into the debate.

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## sancho

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> As I said before the difference between the EDE and EPE is the addition of one fan to increase air flow - I do not expect GE to require customer R&E funding for this - GE/Boeing is not Snecma/Dassault a company like Boeing makes nearly twice the MMRCA contract value in revenue each quarter.



From the GE site:



> In anticipation of evolving and more demanding requirements, the F414 family is continuing on an ambitious growth path to increase thrust, improve durability and satisfy environmental considerations. The Enhanced Durability Engine (EDE) is focused primarily on durability improvement and life-cycle cost savings for the USN customer, *while the Enhanced Performance Engine (EPE) - with increased thrust - is targeted for potential international customers.*
> 
> The EDE incorporates an advanced high pressure turbine (HPT) and six-stage high pressure compressor (HPC) that offers a 2-3X hot-section durability gain and reduced fuel consumption, which could equate to a $1-2 billion savings over the life of the USN fleet. The EPE includes EDE improvements plus a new fan for greater airflow, resulting in a 20 percent thrust improvement and greater operational flexibility.
> 
> *Demonstrator versions of both the EDE and EPE have been successfully run, laying the groundwork for a USN-funded specific fuel consumption (SFC) reduction effort*. This initiative, geared toward developing near- and long-term energy strategies, is aimed at showing a 3 percent SFC gain compared with the current F414-GE-400 configuration. An F414-powered Super Hornet operating on a biofuel blend successfully flew in April 2010 -- the first tactical USN aircraft to use a biofuel blend.



GE Aviation: Powerful Past, Promising Future Mark 1000th F414 Engine Milestone

As you can see, USN funded only the EDE part while further R&D of the EPE is aimed on export customers. There is also an aviation week article on this.
It doesn't matter if GE is bigger than Snecma, because both companies won't waste money for an engine that has no orders. USN is happy with the EDE, French forces are happy with M88-2 (-4E).


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## gogbot

Well it would not have been my pick but the SuperHornet more than has this in the bag now.
Not my preference , but it could have been worse.

Prez Obama will come in November the Deal will be signed. 

I would only hope that the SuperHornet will be delivered with most of the advanced features it promises.
Our refusal to sign US tech control agreements has left us a huge buyer disadvantage point.

Boeing for its part has done well with the plane, it's marketing and Future road map. But its still a US plane.


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## kingdurgaking

Are we allowed to change the weapons on F18?? like integrating Astra, R77, Pythons etc.. does US allow this??


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## Dash

According to my guess we are getting the EDE version of engine by 2014 which gives 15&#37; more thurst already and better fuel consuption.

---------- Post added at 09:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:24 PM ----------




gogbot said:


> Well it would not have been my pick but the SuperHornet more than has this in the bag now.
> Not my preference , but it could have been worse.
> 
> Prez Obama will come in November the Deal will be signed.
> 
> I would only hope that the SuperHornet will be delivered with most of the advanced features it promises.
> Our refusal to sign US tech control agreements has left us a huge buyer disadvantage point.
> 
> Boeing for its part has done well with the plane, it's marketing and Future road map. But its still a US plane.


That what I was telling someone a while ago. the deal came through just after Antony arrived from US.


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## sancho

Dash said:


> According to my guess we are getting the EDE version of engine by 2014 *which gives 15% more thurst already* and better fuel consuption.



Where did u get that from?


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## Dash

sancho said:


> Where did u get that from?


Expected

Wikipedia -

General Electric F414 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



> Current development
> The F414 continues to be improved, both through internal GE efforts and federally funded development programs. By 2006, GE tested an Enhanced Durability Engine (EDE) with an advanced core. The EDE engine provided a 15&#37; thrust increase or longer life without the thrust increase. It has a six-stage high-pressure compressor (down from 7 stages in the standard F414) and an advanced high-pressure turbine.[6] The new compressor should be about 3% more efficient. The new high pressure turbine uses new materials and a new way of delivering cooling air to the blades. These changes should increase the turbine temperature capability by about 150 &#176;F (66 &#176;C).[7] The EDE is designed to have better foreign object damage resistance, and a reduced fuel burn rate.[8][9]



PLus the link you have provided to DBC just a while ago says that the GeF414G version that Gripen demonstrator will use has an increased 20% thurst. Iam sure that is based on Ge414 EDE version as EPE version is not yet started.

Another source from the article Benny has mentioned below.



> The higher power of the F414 EDE is being offered by GE as a way of either increasing thrust by up to 20% over the current F414-400 engine, or offering "up to three times the life of today's hot section at current thrust levels". Partly funded by the US Navy, the ongoing demonstrator programme also includes research into high-cycle-fatigue reduction technologies, and foreign object damage-tolerant fan and compressor aerofoil designs.




so it does look like EDE is on offer with either higher thurst or better fuel maintainanace.


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## SpArK

GE completes F414 demonstration-19/12/2006-Los Angeles-Flight International

It did fly with gripen Demonstrator, right??

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## dbc

sancho said:


> From the GE site:
> 
> 
> 
> GE Aviation: Powerful Past, Promising Future Mark 1000th F414 Engine Milestone
> 
> As you can see, USN funded only the EDE part while further R&D of the EPE is aimed on export customers. There is also an aviation week article on this.
> It doesn't matter if GE is bigger than Snecma, because both companies won't waste money for an engine that has no orders. USN is happy with the EDE, French forces are happy with M88-2 (-4E).





> The EDE incorporates an advanced high pressure turbine (HPT) and six-stage high pressure compressor (HPC) that offers a 2-3X hot-section durability gain and reduced fuel consumption, which could equate to a $1-2 billion savings over the life of the USN fleet. The EPE includes EDE improvements *plus a new fan for greater airflow, resulting in a 20 percent thrust improvement and greater operational flexibility.*



 how much do you expect a fan to cost? USN isn't interested in a higher thrust engine, since it reduces engine life and increases fuel consumption.


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## dbc

Dash said:


> Expected
> 
> Wikipedia -
> 
> General Electric F414 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> 
> PLus the link you have provided to DBC just a while ago says that the GeF414G version that Gripen demonstrator will use has an increased 20% thurst. Iam sure that is based on Ge414 EDE version as EPE version is not yet started.



No, EDE and EPE are the same, customers have a choice of either increasing engine life by a factor of 3 OR increasing thrust by 20% over F-414-400. IAF has to make a decision on either the EDE or EPE version, in other words EDE and F-414-400 have the same maximum thrust while EPE and F-414-400 have the same engine life.

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## sancho

Dash said:


> Expected
> 
> Wikipedia -
> 
> General Electric F414 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> 
> PLus the link you have provided to DBC just a while ago says that the GeF414G version that Gripen demonstrator will use has an increased 20&#37; thurst. Iam sure that is based on Ge414 EDE version as EPE version is not yet started.
> 
> Another source from the article Benny has mentioned below.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> so it does look like EDE is on offer with either higher thurst or better fuel maintainanace.



Interesting but you missunderstood some things. It says more thrust, *or* longer engine life and less fuel consumption, not both. Also the 20% increase for the G that the Gripen NG use is meant in comparison to the older GE 404 / RM 12 in the normal Gripen.



> The F414G, a single-engine variant of the F414-GE-400, delivers 20 percent more thrust for the Gripen Next Generation aircraft *than previous powerplants*.


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## hecj

*so do anybody know wat is the preference of iaf??a single engine or double engine aircraft.*


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## sancho

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> how much do you expect a fan to cost? USN isn't interested in a higher thrust engine, since it reduces engine life and increases fuel consumption.



As always in denial right? 

Once again for you:



> Although the core enhancements are already under contract with the USN, *the programme is seeking an export customer to launch development of the F414 EPE*, Gower said.
> 
> *The international order would lead to follow-on sales for the USN*, which would gradually replace its current inventory with the improved version, Gower said.



Boeing's Super Hornet seeks export sale to launch 20&#37; thrust upgrade

So once again, the USN has funded the EDE upgrades, but although the EPE is based on these upgrades and technically might only need a fan to increase thrust, it needs further developments! These are not funded and as you can see the USN would go for these engines too, if an export customer pays for it first.




hecj said:


> *so do anybody know wat is the preference of iaf??a single engine or double engine aircraft.*



Initially single engine, but that was in the first competition. Today?


----------



## dbc

sancho said:


> As always in denial right?
> 
> Once again for you:
> 
> 
> 
> Boeing's Super Hornet seeks export sale to launch 20% thrust upgrade
> 
> So once again, the USN has funded the EDE upgrades, but although the EPE is based on these upgrades and technically might only need a fan to increase thrust, it needs further developments! These are not funded and as you can see the USN would go for these engines too, if an export customer pays for it first.



"it needs further developments!"? Like what please elaborate? From your own source *"The 'enhanced durability engine' becomes the 'enhanced performance engine' when you put the fan on it," Gower said." *How much funding and time do you expect the task of 'adding a fan' requires? Like I said before the US Navy is not interested in the EPE variant, the EPE variant is a customer option.

Again what do you mean by 'further developments'? 



> *Definitions of development*
> 
> - act of improving by expanding or enlarging or refining; "he congratulated them on their development of a plan to meet the emergency"; "they funded research and development"
> 
> - a process in which something passes by degrees to a different stage (especially a more advanced or mature stage); "the development of his ideas took many years"; "the evolution of Greek civilization"; "the slow development of her skill as a writer"
> 
> - growth: (biology) the process of an individual organism growing organically; a purely biological unfolding of events involved in an organism changing gradually from a simple to a more complex level; "he proposed an indicator of osseous development in children"
> 
> - a recent event that has some relevance for the present situation; "recent developments in Iraq"; "what a revolting development!"


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## sancho

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> "it needs further developments!"? Like what please elaborate? From your own source *"The 'enhanced durability engine' becomes the 'enhanced performance engine' when you put the fan on it," Gower said." *How much funding and time do you expect the task of 'adding a fan' requires? Like I said before the US Navy is not interested in the EPE variant, the EPE variant is a customer option.
> 
> Again what do you mean by 'further developments'?



I have no need to discuss it further with you, because it's not my opinion but what the Boeing vice president for F/A-18E/F said:



> the programme is seeking an export customer to launch *development* of the F414 EPE



You can twist and turn as much as you want, but it remains a fact that it needs more to get the EPE than what is developed, or funded yet. 

G8


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## Dash

> Interesting but you missunderstood some things. It says more thrust, or longer engine life and less fuel consumption, not both. Also the 20&#37; increase for the G that the Gripen NG use is meant in comparison to the older GE 404 / RM 12 in the normal Gripen



Thanks Sancho, I realised that too. Its an "or" in case of "and". So it does look like we are going for Ge414 with higher endurance version, coz GE414 will anyway give higher thurst than 404.

Its upto Ge now how they are parting the TOT stuff with us.


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## Dash

But I have a question here, what the point of this GE414 G version which gives 20&#37; higher thurst than the earlier poerplant of GE 404 that Gripen used. The 414 normal version also gives higher thurst.

Actually, we can go for this G version of engine coz it will be quicker, as EDE and EPE will take some time, the G one is also tested in Gripen. we need not wait for it.


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## rockstarIN

sancho said:


> Not to disqualify them, but it will have an impact in the decision for sure. Delivery of spares, problems with Mig 27 engines are important issues and the experience with Sukhoi in terms of quality and aftersale supports are clearly better. Of course it's not all Russian faults, but Mig as a company will have to prove themself as reliable again.
> However, it is just one of several problems that the Mig 35 has to face.



One of the Mig-35 advantage is that this plane's engine got TVC, of which I think nobody notices.

"With the vectored thrust nozzles, the engines are designated RD-33OVT and will allow the MiG-35 to be the first production twin-engine aircraft with vectoring nozzles that can move in two directions or planes. Other current thrust-vectoring aircraft, such as the Su-30MKI and the F-22, have nozzles that vector in one direction/plane" - (Wiki).

All the other contenders have no such ability.. 

I prefer Russia over US in defense deals..


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## dbc

sancho said:


> I have no need to discuss it further with you, because it's not my opinion but what the Boeing vice president for F/A-18E/F said:
> 
> 
> 
> You can twist and turn as much as you want, but it remains a fact that it needs more to get the EPE than what is developed, or funded yet.
> 
> G8



I'm crushed  but great exit strategy . Make a ridiculous claim feign righteous indignation and attempt to flee.

The F-414 EPE is on the table as part of the Boeing's MMRCA offering the R&E was funded by several government agencies in what began as the IHPTET program. 



> *Paul Oliver, Boeing's senior director for international business development, confirms the F414 enhanced performance engine (EPE) was submitted as part of Boeing's proposal to win the MMRCA contract.*



Dubai 09: Boeing aims to win Indian deal with engine offer

The USN funded part of this R&E effort the remaining part of the program was funded by the US Army and several government agencies. The USN is yet to contract GE for EDE engines for new or operational Super Hornets - what this means is that the engine R&E effort is complete and the EPE and EDE are both available choices for future needs of the USN or current / future Super Hornet customers.


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## dbc

Can someone confirm this please? 



> Trial Emphasis
> The emphasis in the MMRCA selection process appeared to be on attack potential and low cost of ownership, *not air combat capability*



Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) for IAF - a knol by Vijainder K Thakur


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## soaringphnx

rockstar said:


> One of the Mig-35 advantage is that this plane's engine got TVC, of which I think nobody notices.
> 
> "With the vectored thrust nozzles, the engines are designated RD-33OVT and will allow the MiG-35 to be the first production twin-engine aircraft with vectoring nozzles that can move in two directions or planes. Other current thrust-vectoring aircraft, such as the Su-30MKI and the F-22, have nozzles that vector in one direction/plane" - (Wiki).
> 
> All the other contenders have no such ability..
> 
> I prefer Russia over US in defense deals..



3D TVC won't be a defining factor here IMO. 3D TVC offers advantages only in WVR combat where manuverability is very important. It could also help to avoid missiles. But now, more and more engagements are in BVR where 3D TVC won't help much. It would be better to have 3D TVC in a stealth platform (like the PAK FA) because as aircraft have a tough time detecting each other, they get closer and closer which may lead to a dogfight.

The IAF needs a good attack aircraft which has considerable ait-to-air capability - so the aircraft they select won't be required to dogfight other than in self-defence. The MRCA winner is likely to be used as the Mirages were used in Kargil - to strike enemy strongholds under fighter escort (Su-30MKI).


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## SpArK

*How GE's Tejas MK-II Win Affects The MMRCA. Or Doesn't.*









*In a little over two months from now, the Indian Ministry of Defence will approve the Indian Air Force's field trial evaluation report and begin commercial negotiations with what the IAF hopes will be a downselected list of vendors. Remember, the IAF has not explicitly indicated a downselect, leaving it to the MoD to understand this from the level of compliance index.*

*Now, there's an overwhelming sense that India's selection of the GE F414 engine makes things much, much clearer about the MMRCA competition, and narrows things down considerably. For clarity's sake, variants of the F414 power the Boeing F/A-18 IN Super Hornet and the next generation Saab Gripen IN, while the Eurojet EJ200 -- which lost to GE in the Tejas MK-II competition -- powers the Eurofighter Typhoon.*

The logic was always compelling. A dedicated licensed engine production line in the country for the Tejas MK-II would provide robust economy of scale advantages and funnel down the contenders in the MMRCA. That's how it probably should happen, but will it? Another matter altogether. Some scenarios:

*SCENARIO 1*: At least six IAF officers I spoke to suggested that it would be wrong to connect the Tejas MK-II and the MMRCA on too many levels. One of them suggested that the two deals were mutually exclusive, with a sharp line dividing the two -- in other words, the decision on one had no way of influencing the other. Therefore, in this scenario, the GE F414 selection provides no tangible advantages, going forward in the MMRCA, to the F/A-18 and Gripen NG, even though those advantages would normally shout loud. When I asked an Air Marshal, formerly at Eastern Air Command HQ, how this could be justified -- considering how it goes headlong against the economies of scale notion -- he said, "You must understand that each deal is a leverage in itself. The government can choose to draw connections and give the country the most effective deal. Or it could keep everything separate and leave all options open for maximum leverage. In my understanding, the government would not hand GE an automatic victory in the MMRCA as a default result of the Tejas MK-II selection. That is not how things happen in India." The other crucial point here is: if the GE victory wasn't politically premeditated, then there exists no procedural route for the Tejas MK-II engine selection to be taken into account in a potential MMRCA downselect. In other words, if the MMRCA is sticking unflinchingly to the RFP (as the Indian Defence Minister recently stated in Washington, and reiterated yesterday by Air Marshal NAK Browne, the IAF's Western Command chief), then GE's win would/could have no direct bearing on the MMRCA downselect simply because there is no official route for it to do so. The last critical point: the F414 engine that will be built in India under tech-transfer, will be a modified engine for the Tejas. If an F414-powered airplane happens to be selected in the MMRCA, then it is likely that there will be two lines, or a fork in the main line.

*SCENARIO 2*: The opposite scenario. Here, the government decides that a dedicated GE F414 engine line in the country means it makes sense to narrow down the selection based on the economies of engine scale logic. In other words, you have the Gripen going against the Super Hornet in the MMRCA finals.

*SUB-SCENARIO 2 (a)* But there are important points to remember here to: two extravagantly different aircraft, same engine in different configurations. The US government would obviously support the F/A-18, and GE would clearly prefer the F/A-18, since it's American and a twin-engine platform, so it means double the number of engines sold by GE as compared to the number it would sell if India chose the Gripen. In this scenario, the GE F414 economies of scale and political considerations would push the F/A-18 to the top of the list.

*SUB-SCENARIO 2 (b)* In this scenario, the government decides it already has economies of scale, and pushes the Gripen forward as a perceived compromise: the cheaper aircraft, with American engine and weapons. The US cannot exercise export licensing controls on the Gripen's GE engine since each vendor had to submit a signed affidavit before field trials that all systems listed in their bid documents were available, and needed no further approvals from any government. Remember, the IAF has said it won't choose a twin-engine aircraft in the MMRCA, if a single-engine aircraft can "do the job", i.e, is satisfactorily compliant on all 643 test points that each of the six airplanes were tested for during the field evaluation trials (FETs). But now it's up to the MoD.

*SCENARIO 3*: In this scenario, the GE victory in the Tejas MK-II engine competition, has a reverse effect on the MMRCA, and pushes the Eurofighter Typhoon, Rafale and F-16 (the MiG-35 is all but officially confirmed to be out) to the top of the pile, since alternate engines provide their own leverage. Scenarios 2 & 3 are of course assuming the government won't look at the Tejas MK-II and the MMRCA as "two watertight compartments" as an officer put it.


Livefist - The Best of Indian Defence: How GE's Tejas MK-II Win Affects The MMRCA. Or Doesn't.

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## dbc

BENNY said:


> *How GE's Tejas MK-II Win Affects The MMRCA. Or Doesn't.*



Another possible scenario Rafale wins but IAF insists on F-414's for commonality. Rafale prototypes were powered by an earlier version of the F-414's so it is doable.


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## gogbot

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Another possible scenario Rafale wins but IAF insists on F-414's for commonality. Rafale prototypes were powered by an earlier version of the F-414's so it is doable.



Unlikely , Dassult has not attained US nods for such a configuration.
Without Such guarantee's IAF will not even explore such options.

More likely is Installing Kaveri Engines onto the Rafale.

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## luckyyy

* an year old article , but intresting , could be a shocker for those who think that Dassault Rafeal is a front runner in MMRCA deal*

India may go beyond the purchase of 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft.

The winner&#8217;s jackpot could soon become even bigger in what is already the world&#8217;s most lucrative fighter aircraft tender: India&#8217;s proposed purchase of 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) for an estimated Rs 51,000 crore ($11 billion).

The reason is a breakdown in India&#8217;s long negotiations with Dassault Aviation, the French aircraft manufacturer, for upgrading 51 Indian Air Force Mirage-2000 fighters. *According to senior IAF sources, Dassault has refused to reduce its quota of Rs 10,000 crore ($2.1 billion) for extending the service life of the IAF&#8217;s Mirage-2000 fleet by fitting new radars and avionics. The Ministry of Defence (MoD) considers this price &#8212; Rs 196 crore ($41 million) per aircraft &#8212; unacceptably high, given that the airframes and engines will not be changed.*

In comparison, *each of the 126 brand-new, next-generation MMRCAs will cost some Rs 400 crore ($87 million) per aircraft. That includes the cost of technology transfers, as well as capital costs for setting up a manufacturing line in India. Once those costs are amortised, additional MMRCAs would be significantly cheaper.*

*Dassault&#8217;s India head, Posina V Rao, did not return multiple phone calls from Business Standard. MoD sources say Rao is engaged in last-ditch attempts to salvage the deal.*

But, the MoD is veering around to the view that the Mirage-2000 fleet should continue service in its current form. After six squadrons (126 aircraft) of MMRCAs have entered IAF service,* an additional two squadrons of MMRCAs would be built to replace the 51 Mirage-2000 fighters. *That amounts to a 40 per cent rise in the MMRCA&#8217;s numbers.

*Israeli aerospace companies have reportedly entered the fray, offering to upgrade the Mirage-2000 for half the price being quoted by Dassault.* The MoD, however, is not inclined to accept that offer.

Price negotiations for the Mirage-2000 upgrade have travelled a rocky road over two years. Initially, *Dassault quoted Rs 13,500 crore ($2.9 billion), which it brought down to the current level of Rs 10,000 crore ($2.1 billion) after the IAF diluted its upgrade requirements. But the MoD believes Dassault&#8217;s reduced bid only reflects the diluted requirements, rather than any flexibility on the latter&#8217;s part.*

*The IAF, traditionally a staunch supporter of Dassault and the Mirage-2000 fighter, is apparently changing its views. Dassault, say pilots, has badly damaged its credibility during the recent negotiations by arm-twisting the IAF over the supply of spares for the Mirage-2000 fleet.*

The Gwalior-based IAF squadrons that currently fly the Mirage-2000 are Number 1 squadron (Tigers) and Number 7 squadron (Battle Axes).

Five of the six contenders for the MMRCA contract &#8212; Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Eurofighter, Gripen and RAC MiG &#8212; know they could reap handsome gains, through larger fighter orders, if India chooses not to upgrade the Mirage-2000. The sixth contender, *Dassault Aviation itself, realises failure to negotiate the Mirage-2000 upgrade contract could seriously damage the chances of its Rafale fighter for the MMRCA contract.*
IAF's $11-bn order may become larger

* even though the deal would be sign at the end *


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## softtec

luckyyy said:


> * an year old article , but intresting , could be a shocker for those who think that Dassault Rafeal is a front runner in MMRCA deal*
> 
> India may go beyond the purchase of 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft.
> 
> The winners jackpot could soon become even bigger in what is already the worlds most lucrative fighter aircraft tender: Indias proposed purchase of 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) for an estimated Rs 51,000 crore ($11 billion).
> 
> The reason is a breakdown in Indias long negotiations with Dassault Aviation, the French aircraft manufacturer, for upgrading 51 Indian Air Force Mirage-2000 fighters. *According to senior IAF sources, Dassault has refused to reduce its quota of Rs 10,000 crore ($2.1 billion) for extending the service life of the IAFs Mirage-2000 fleet by fitting new radars and avionics. The Ministry of Defence (MoD) considers this price  Rs 196 crore ($41 million) per aircraft  unacceptably high, given that the airframes and engines will not be changed.*
> 
> In comparison, *each of the 126 brand-new, next-generation MMRCAs will cost some Rs 400 crore ($87 million) per aircraft. That includes the cost of technology transfers, as well as capital costs for setting up a manufacturing line in India. Once those costs are amortised, additional MMRCAs would be significantly cheaper.*
> 
> *Dassaults India head, Posina V Rao, did not return multiple phone calls from Business Standard. MoD sources say Rao is engaged in last-ditch attempts to salvage the deal.*
> 
> But, the MoD is veering around to the view that the Mirage-2000 fleet should continue service in its current form. After six squadrons (126 aircraft) of MMRCAs have entered IAF service,* an additional two squadrons of MMRCAs would be built to replace the 51 Mirage-2000 fighters. *That amounts to a 40 per cent rise in the MMRCAs numbers.
> 
> *Israeli aerospace companies have reportedly entered the fray, offering to upgrade the Mirage-2000 for half the price being quoted by Dassault.* The MoD, however, is not inclined to accept that offer.
> 
> Price negotiations for the Mirage-2000 upgrade have travelled a rocky road over two years. Initially, *Dassault quoted Rs 13,500 crore ($2.9 billion), which it brought down to the current level of Rs 10,000 crore ($2.1 billion) after the IAF diluted its upgrade requirements. But the MoD believes Dassaults reduced bid only reflects the diluted requirements, rather than any flexibility on the latters part.*
> 
> *The IAF, traditionally a staunch supporter of Dassault and the Mirage-2000 fighter, is apparently changing its views. Dassault, say pilots, has badly damaged its credibility during the recent negotiations by arm-twisting the IAF over the supply of spares for the Mirage-2000 fleet.*
> 
> The Gwalior-based IAF squadrons that currently fly the Mirage-2000 are Number 1 squadron (Tigers) and Number 7 squadron (Battle Axes).
> 
> Five of the six contenders for the MMRCA contract  Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Eurofighter, Gripen and RAC MiG  know they could reap handsome gains, through larger fighter orders, if India chooses not to upgrade the Mirage-2000. The sixth contender, *Dassault Aviation itself, realises failure to negotiate the Mirage-2000 upgrade contract could seriously damage the chances of its Rafale fighter for the MMRCA contract.*
> IAF's $11-bn order may become larger
> 
> * even though the deal would be sign at the end *



That's a very scary situation.Reminds me of Scorpion sub deal.I seriously think if IAF selects already expensive Rafale, a great deal of *cost* and *time* overrun further may be happened.


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## kingdurgaking

Livefist - The Best of Indian Defence: "No Connection Between Tejas MK-II Engine and MMRCA": IAF Chief

Finally one good news

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## redpearl75

Can you pls paste the entire entry if possible as Im at work and that page is blocked..?


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## kingdurgaking

redpearl75 said:


> Can you pls paste the entire entry if possible as Im at work and that page is blocked..?



"No Connection Between Tejas MK-II Engine and MMRCA": IAF Chief
IAF chief Air Chief Marshal PV Naik today asserted that there was "no connection" between the GE F414 engine selection for the Tejas MK-II and the Indian MMRCA competition. He was asked if the F414's selection would provide any considerably advantage to the two platforms in the MMRCA that were powered by the same engine. His reply: "No, there is no connection."

enzoy

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## luckyyy

kingdurgaking said:


> Livefist - The Best of Indian Defence: "No Connection Between Tejas MK-II Engine and MMRCA": IAF Chief
> 
> Finally one good news



there shouldn't be any connection Between Tejas MK-II Engine and MMRCA.
just like the LCA engine , the MMRCA will also go to the lowest bidder..


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## redpearl75

then it sure is a great news as the indian govt. always look for relating different matters and delaying everything... It's a good thing then...


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## anathema

Common people -- You all really think IAF chief would admit that there is a connection ? Such an admission would automatically raise legal issues and would leave all the participating vendors fuming -- since they were not informed of such a condition. 

No any implications of LCA engine selection would be indirect -- it will have a role to play in the selection especially if one is faced with a GE engine fighter and one non GE engine fighter.


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## redpearl75

anathema said:


> Common people -- You all really think IAF chief would admit that there is a connection ? Such an admission would automatically raise legal issues and would leave all the participating vendors fuming -- since they were not informed of such a condition.
> 
> No any implications of LCA engine selection would be indirect -- it will have a role to play in the selection especially if one is faced with a GE engine fighter and one non GE engine fighter.



Brother, no offfence but whom are you referring to as common people here..? We all are the same and never forget that.... And if what's told earlier is not correct then this will be a controversial issue as then the IAF chief would be in trouble for airing something that's not relevant and true.... What I knew from the very beginning is that this engine thing is directly related to the MRCA deal as the party finally getting selected for the supply of engines for LCA would have an upper hand in the competition and moreover it would be very much convenient for our maintainance crew to maintain the engines for both LCA and whichever aircraft that gets selected finally..... But I personally feel that it should not be a deciding factor even to be concidered for the MRCA deal.... As this engine only is equipping the Super Hornet(GE F414-GE-400) and Gripen (GE F414G).... and the SH is now topping the charts according to the unofficial information... As US is also offerring India with the development of Hornet in future which sure is interesting and attractive, but no one has seen the future..... We all can just hope for something that's good and rather best for us......


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## jha

We should not forget that common engine with LCA will reduce the costs of MRCA by ~12&#37;. and 12% is surely a huge amount.


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## FSLN

I think you guys should go for the Super Bug, its the most capable A2G aircraft here, mature AESA, twin engine(your cup of tea) you could also bargain for atleast 50 of them to be wired as Growlers for future EW upgrades, this will make them even more deadlier....


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## SpArK

anathema said:


> Common people -- You all really think IAF *chief would admit that there is a connection* ? Such an admission would automatically raise legal issues and would leave all the participating vendors fuming -- since they were not informed of such a condition.
> 
> No any implications of LCA engine selection would be indirect -- it will have a role to play in the selection especially if one is faced with a GE engine fighter and one non GE engine fighter.



Even if F-18 wins the people concerned will term it as *pure coincidence* and move on...


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## redpearl75

jha said:


> We should not forget that common engine with LCA will reduce the costs of MRCA by ~12%. and 12% is surely a huge amount.



That way we just are left with Rafale and Super hornet then.. Which I believe is a good thing again... But Rafale is going to be a very expensive deal for us as seeing the current behavior of France with the upgradation of the Mirages that we operate to the Mk-II standards... Hornets on the other hand is again a good options only if you concider all the added offers that US is offerring now but do you really think that future projections should be strong enough for choosing a jet over an other......?


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## luckyyy

when IAF keep buying SU-30 , getting MIG-29 upgraded , planing to buy 250 FGFA .....

*why then MIG-35 been the least faverate to win MMRCA ..*


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## indushek

luckyyy said:


> when IAF keep buying SU-30 , getting MIG-29 upgraded , planing to buy 250 FGFA .....
> 
> *why then MIG-35 been the least faverate to win MMRCA ..*



Politics and strategy too play a big role in choice of weaponry. Those deals are to keep our old lover happy and the MRCA is to make new love with a chick getting increasingly close to us recently. If u know what i mean.


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## luckyyy

indushek said:


> Politics and strategy too play a big role in choice of weaponry. Those deals are to keep our old lover happy and the MRCA is to make new love with a chick getting increasingly close to us recently. If u know what i mean.



there also another lover "france"....mirage upgrade deal still hanging..

but my point was not that , IAF has not made any statement that MIG-35 is out of MMRCA , it's more in the public domain ..

not knowing about IAF/MoD but surely MIG-35 is least favorate in public domain.....

why ?


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## rockstarIN

luckyyy said:


> there also another lover "france"....mirage upgrade deal still hanging..
> 
> but my point was not that , IAF has not made any statement that MIG-35 is out of MMRCA , it's more in the public domain ..
> 
> not knowing about IAF/MoD but surely MIG-35 is least favorate in public domain.....
> 
> why ?



Only coz of the bad reputation of Mig jets (Mig-21,27) of technical lags.

If you see the feature wise of all MMRCA contenders, Mig-35 is the best.


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## luckyyy

rockstar said:


> Only coz of the bad reputation of Mig jets (Mig-21,27) of technical lags.
> 
> If you see the feature wise of all MMRCA contenders, Mig-35 is the best.



going by the price at which these Mig-21,27 were bought , it's a miracle that they are still flying..


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## redpearl75

luckyyy said:


> going by the price at which these Mig-21,27 were bought , it's a miracle that they are still flying..



Can we take chances this time making a the jets mere a miracle and accepting it that way.. We donn't have to concider it as a miracle but something that's a practical thing and good as well.... Mig 21-27 are relics and should never even brought along with this MRCA deal.... How many lives Mig 21 has claimed, do you know that and still you say that it's a miracle.... Can we really take chances with our efficiency and life when iy comes to something like this.... Mig 35 sure is a great fighter but does it stand any chance in front of the other contenders when it comes to weapon options/Radar/range/Avionics package/Weapon load.... No... Though the price it offers is the most cheapest but I don't find Mig 35s to be a great deal as we already operate Fulcrums and we need something different and better this time...


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## redpearl75

As far as I see, Super Hornets or Rafales would be the best option followed by Gripen even though it's light but it offers a great package....


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## warlords

does anyone know about the capabilities of gripen's ericsson radar??


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## redpearl75

warlords said:


> does anyone know about the capabilities of gripen's ericsson radar??



PS-05/A multimode radar (Sweden), Airborne fire-control radars

Type 
I/J-band (8 to 18/20 GHz) multimode search and fire-control radar.

Description 
PS-05/A is the multimode search and fire-control radar that is installed in the JAS-39 Gripen multirole combat aircraft and in its baseline form, comprises a 25 kg antenna/platform assembly, a 73 kg power liquid-cooled, travelling wave tube power amplifier/transmitter unit, a 32 kg software-controlled exciter/receiver unit and a 23 kg signal/data processor. Within this latter unit, the signal processing function is programmable, while the D80 data processor uses software written in Pascal and incorporates a built-in test routine. To provide the required operational flexibility, low, medium and high Pulse Repetition Frequency (PRF) functions are incorporated together with a range of waveform modes which include the following:Air-to-Ground Ranging (AGR)A ground target ranging mode.Doppler Beam Sharpening (DBS)A synthetic aperture mode that utilises Doppler processing and is used for high-resolution ground mapping with high angular coverage obtained via continuous antenna scanning.High Pulse Doppler (HPD)A high PRF mode that utilises Doppler processing for clutter rejection and which is designed primarily for use against forward hemisphere air targets.Low Pulse Doppler (LPD)A Doppler processing mode that is used against moving surface targets.Low Pulse Repetition Frequency (LPRF)A low PRF mode with pulse-to-pulse frequency agility that is used for real-beam mapping and surface target detection.Medium Pulse Doppler (MPD)A medium PRF mode that utilises Doppler processing and is designed for use against nose and tail aspect air targets. A high-resolution submode is incorporated to facilitate target tracking.SpotLight Mode (SLM)A synthetic aperture spotlight mode that utilises Doppler processing for very high-resolution mapping.Use of these various waveform/PRF combinations allows the
That's what Janes says...

The PS-05/A is a pulse-doppler radar currently used by the JAS 39 Gripen fighter aircraft. It weighs 156 kg and has been developed by Ericsson and GEC-Marconi, based on the latter's advanced Blue Vixen radar for the Sea Harrier (which inspired the Eurofighter's CAPTOR radar as well).

The PS-05/A works in the 8-10 GHz band and has 1 kW energy output (> 10 kW maximum output). The radar is capable of detecting, locating, identifying and automatically tracking multiple targets in the upper and lower spheres, on the ground and sea or in the air, in all weather conditions. It consists of four parts and all parts can be replaced in 30 minutes.

Gripen operator Hungarian Air Force reported the PS-05 radar set has proved reliable so far, both in domestic service and NATO flight exercises in Corsica.

*Versions*
MK-3
Is the latest version of PS-05/A radar which is currently in use and has been available since 2005.

It is capable of detecting a fighter aircraft from 120 km distance and can see road traffic and count ships at anchor in a harbour at 70 km. The radar weighs 156kg made up of a 25 kg antenna/platform assembly, a 73 kg power liquid-cooled, travelling wave tube power amplifier/transmitter unit, a 32 kg software-controlled exciter/receiver unit and a 23 kg signal/data processor. [1] [2]

Radar modes:

a) Air-to-Air modes:

LRS (Long Range Search) is used to detect and identify targets at high ranges. 
TWS (Track While Scan) allows to track targets and search for other targets. 
MPTT (Multiple Priority Target Tracking). 
PTT (Priority Target Tracking) allows accurate targeting and tracking Air-to-Air missiles. 
STT (Single Target Track). 
ACM (Air Combat Mode) is used for automatic target detection in dogfight. 
b) Air-to-Surface modes:

LRS (Long Range Search) is used for ground or sea target search at long distances. 
RA (Raid Assessment) ensures bombing. 
SMTI (Stationary and Moving Target Indication) is used for ground stationary or moving targets. 
GSPTT (Ground and Sea Priority Target Tracking). 
GM (Ground Mapping) ensures mapping of terrain under the aircraft for navigation purposes (e.g. terrain copying at night or adverse weather condition). 
HRM (High Resolution Mapping) ensures terrain mapping by synthetic aperture in order to gain high resolution pictures. 
RANGING high accuracy ground target ranging. 
All information is processed by a Mercury Computer Systems RACE/PPC setup, which has replaced the Ericsson D80 of Batch 1-2 Gripens.

MK-4
Is an upgraded version of MK-3 and should improve SAR capability to modern standards and enhance GMTI/GMTT (SMTI/GSPTT) modes.

MK-5
Is a further upgrade of MK-4 radar which will gain new AESA antenna instead of mechanically scanned antenna. This radar will be available by 2012.

Development of the AESA radar for Gripen started out under the Saab Ericsson NORA (Not Only a RAdar) programme, and has been underway for several years, including test flying aboard a specially-retained Saab JA 37 Viggen testbed. Benefits of the NORA concept was the provision of improved long-range tracking as a result of the combination of longer detection range and electronically-steered beam control, dominant battlespace awareness, track identification through non-co-operative target recognition, low probability of intercept and enhanced jamming capabilities. The AESA radar programme is directly linked to MIDAS (Multifunction Integrated Defensive Avionics System), which will also add electronic attack and advanced datalinking capabilities.

And that's what Wiki says.....

Please have a look at this link for more information.... : http://www.saabgroup.com/Global/Doc...stems/PS 05_A/saab_PS-05 A 4pg Screen PDF.pdf

I hope it's helpful...


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## redpearl75




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## rockstarIN

redpearl75 said:


> As far as I see, Super Hornets or Rafales would be the best option followed by Gripen even though it's light but it offers a great package....



Gripen is single engined fighter equal to LCA Mk-III, no need to go for that. Y we need to buy that if we have capacity to make one.


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## rockstarIN

redpearl75 said:


> Can we take chances this time making a the jets mere a miracle and accepting it that way.. We donn't have to concider it as a miracle but something that's a practical thing and good as well.... Mig 21-27 are relics and should never even brought along with this MRCA deal.... How many lives Mig 21 has claimed, do you know that and still you say that it's a miracle.... Can we really take chances with our efficiency and life when iy comes to something like this.... Mig 35 sure is a great fighter but does it stand any chance in front of the other contenders when it comes to weapon options/Radar/range/Avionics package/Weapon load.... No... Though the price it offers is the most cheapest but I don't find Mig 35s to be a great deal as we already operate Fulcrums and we need something different and better this time...



Mig-35 offers the same stuff which others offer. In fact Mig-35 will be added with TVC, which others doesn't have.

weapon options/Radar/range/Avionics package/Weapon load - all these are equal ro better to other contenders of MMRCA. The only problem is the lack of trust and bad old memories. new MIG-29s didnt crash as Mig-21 did.

And yes, Russian PR work is weak, look at Discovery channels airing in India, they show always F-18 or ET..


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## redpearl75

The developmental NORA III AESA radar mounted on the rear ramp of a C-130 Hercules transport aircraft for initial flight trials. (Saab Microwave Systems)


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## indushek

luckyyy said:


> there also another lover "france"....mirage upgrade deal still hanging..
> 
> but my point was not that , IAF has not made any statement that MIG-35 is out of MMRCA , it's more in the public domain ..
> 
> not knowing about IAF/MoD but surely MIG-35 is least favorate in public domain.....
> 
> why ?



Firstly u have to understand the reason for which MRCA was called.

It was to compliment (in near future and replace afterwards) the Mirage jets. These were the only jets able to fly at the heights of Kargill war with ease. Also they have excellent ground attack capability. Its another story that slowly this requirement was changed to a multi role aircraft later.

Ground attack capability is one of the main reason for this contract to be called. In this effect Mig 35 cannot be called a potent ground attack aircraft as till date only a single prototype has been built and also this was done by just adding some advanced avionics to existing Mig frame of Mig 29. 

Though looked at with suspicion F/A-18 has excellent above mentioned capability. Infact its called a bomb truck as u must be knowing. On the other hand Rafale too is an excellent ground attack aircraft and so on and..................................so on etc.

Hope this satisfies ur query.


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## redpearl75

rockstar said:


> Gripen is single engined fighter equal to LCA Mk-III, no need to go for that. Y we need to buy that if we have capacity to make one.



It's understood but the thing is that Gripen being a light weight fighter but have you noticed the weapon options/weapon load it offers, it's neat 3.5 T more than LCA, and is More that MIG 35 and nears EFT and F-16... That's why Im concidering that as a potentet contender....

It's cheap compared to Mig 35s when it comes to what it offers compared to what MIG does....

the Gripen's Range is: 2,500 km (Unrefuled)/4,075 km(With external tanks) where as Mig 35 has a range of: 2000 Kms unrefuled and 3200 with tanks.... Combat radius for Gripen is: 1300 Kms and that of Mig is: 1000 Kms..

Mig has a loaded weight of 29T whereas Gripen has only 16.5T of weight... See the difference...

there is no similarities between the Gripen and LCA as LCA is a light weight combat fighter and Gripen is concidered to be a medium weight combat jet....


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## soaringphnx

redpearl75 said:


> That way we just are left with Rafale and Super hornet then..



That's good, because both the aircraft fit the IAF requirements perfectly and are the most capable air-to-ground platforms available.



redpearl75 said:


> But Rafale is going to be a very expensive deal for us as seeing the current behavior of France with the upgradation of the Mirages that we operate to the Mk-II standards...



I think it's better to shell out more money than suffer from sanctions during war. That's one of the reasons why I support the Rafale.

Both have their own advantages and disadvantages.


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## redpearl75

soaringphnx said:


> That's good, because both the aircraft fit the IAF requirements perfectly and are the most capable air-to-ground platforms available.
> 
> 
> 
> I think it's better to shell out more money than suffer from sanctions during war. That's one of the reasons why I support the Rafale.
> 
> Both have their own advantages and disadvantages.



I agree to that completely, so far there has been a lot of hype with the EFt but that's the most controvarsial jet as 5 nations are involved in it and god know what's the future, where one nation says let's do it and the other says, not.... Rafale was my favorite since the very first day and even though it's expensive, it offers the best that's there.... Im just worried about the expenses part from the govt point of view as France might make us pay a hell lot more that what's going to be finalized... Still rafale is on tope in my list... SH is also a good deal but again it's American and Im allergic to that... lol..... Let's see what happens....


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## soaringphnx

rockstar said:


> Only coz of the bad reputation of Mig jets (Mig-21,27) of technical lags.
> 
> If you see the feature wise of all MMRCA contenders, Mig-35 is the best.



I would like to respectfully disagree. What feature or features are you referring to?

Air-to-ground ability: The Super Hornet offers the best air-to-ground ability with the Rafale being a close second.

Radar: The Super Hornet has the best radar.

Maintenance and life costs: IAF MiG-29s have quite a bad maintenance and serviceability history. The Gripen may be the leading candidate here. Sure, MiG-35s have a commonality with IAF MiG-29s and the navy's MiG-29Ks, but this advantage is shared to an extent by the Rafale (Kaveri engine option and Mirages in service), Super Hornet and Gripen (engine commonality with LCA).

Multi-role ability: The Rafale is the undisputed leader here.

Air-to-air ability: though I don't believe this is the most important factor for MRCA, Eurofighter Typhoon is the best air-to-air fighter.

Tech transfer: Sure, the MiG-35 can giver us 100% tech transfer, but do we really gain anything? India already has access to the MiG-35's technologies through other deals and JVs (MiG-29K and PAK FA). Rafale may be a better choice here. Even the Super Hornet can give us limited access to US tech.

Political Gains: India already has good ties with Russia. But this deal offers us a chance to get some political gains in the U.S. and Europe.

The only feature the MiG-35 offers us that the other contenders don't is the option of 3D TVC which is an unneeded feature for an aircraft which will not or will only be seldom used for air superiority roles.

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## redpearl75

*50&#37; of IAF equipment obsolete, says IAF chief*

NEW DELHI: The Indian Air Force on Monday said that 50% of its systems and equipment were obsolete and steps were being taken to bring down the obsolescence levels in the next four to five years. 

"The obsolescence percentage is 50%," Air Chief Marshal P V Naik said here adding that "by 2014-15, it would come down to 20%". 

The IAF chief was addressing his annual press conference on the Air Force Day held on October 8 every year. 

Asked which was the most critical area for the force in this regard, Naik said, "Air Defence. That will be the only word." 

The Air Chief made it clear that even with 50% obsolete equipment, the IAF was capable of handling threats from the medium of air and space. "We are fully capable of defending the country from any threat." 

At present, IAF relies mainly on its Russian-origin air defence systems such as the OSA-AK and Pechora and the shoulder-fired Igla missiles, which have been in service for over two decades. 

In the recent past, the IAF has been working on developing its air defence network and is looking to procure various systems in this regard. 

It has already ordered for over six squadrons of the indigenously-made Akash air defence systems and the Spyder Medium-range Surface to Air Missile (MR-SAM) system from Israel along with aerostat radars to prevent any aerial attacks. 

The force is looking at deploying low-level and medium-level transportable radars at different locations and is also planning to procure radars for being deployed in high altitude areas along the borders with China and Pakistan. 

What else can anyboday say, we have 50% or more inventory from Russian origin and are obsolete... No more Russian stuff for this competition pls.... We need to explore the other options as well and if proved then we will exploit those as well....


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## anathema

redpearl75 said:


> Brother,* no offfence but whom are you referring to as common people here..? *We all are the same and never forget that.... And if what's told earlier is not correct then this will be a controversial issue as then the IAF chief would be in trouble for airing something that's not relevant and true.... What I knew from the very beginning is that this engine thing is directly related to the MRCA deal as the party finally getting selected for the supply of engines for LCA would have an upper hand in the competition and moreover it would be very much convenient for our maintainance crew to maintain the engines for both LCA and whichever aircraft that gets selected finally..... *But I personally feel that it should not be a deciding factor even to be concidered for the MRCA deal.... As this engine only is equipping the Super Hornet(GE F414-GE-400) and Gripen (GE F414G).... and the SH is now topping the charts according to the unofficial information*... As US is also offerring India with the development of Hornet in future which sure is interesting and attractive, but no one has seen the future..... We all can just hope for something that's good and rather best for us......



It wasnt 'Common people' -- it was meant to be read as 'Come on' people. 

It doesnt matter what we feel...the fact is that the commonality of engines between LCA and MRCA is too big an advantage to be ignored by the decision makers - both in terms of buying as well as maintenance costs. IAF chief has to be politically correct -- if he speaks out his mind then rest assured every embassy/firms of the countries participating in the deal will be on the phones to consult with their legal advicers..we dont want again to go through the howitzer saga.

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## sancho

Dash said:


> But I have a question here, what the point of this GE414 G version which gives 20% higher thurst than the earlier poerplant of GE 404 that Gripen used. The 414 normal version also gives higher thurst.
> 
> Actually, we can go for this G version of engine coz it will be quicker, as EDE and EPE will take some time, the G one is also tested in Gripen. we need not wait for it.



Actually we could get just another version of the 414G, because it is the version for single engine fighters. Till now I didn't found any reliable source that clears which engine the MK2 really gets.




luckyyy said:


> when IAF keep buying SU-30 , getting MIG-29 upgraded , planing to buy 250 FGFA .....
> 
> why then MIG-35 been the least faverate to win MMRCA ..



Exactly because we already have, or will have even better capabilities than what the Mig 35 can offer, through the other Russian fighters. The future potential of the Mig is more than low, it offers no advantage on the weapon side, it's possibly one of the costliest in terms of maintenance. It is cheap to procure, but that's it!


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## sancho

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> I'm crushed  but great exit strategy . Make a ridiculous claim feign righteous indignation and attempt to flee.



LOL, I'don't know how late it was in the US, but here in Germany it was night, so ending the last post with a G8 seemed appropriate to me.



Death.By.Chocolate said:


> The F-414 EPE is on the table as part of the Boeing's MMRCA offering the R&E was funded by several government agencies in what began as the IHPTET program.



True, I never said something else, my point was who will fund it, because as I proved, the USN will not and Boeing/GE are looking for export customers.


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## SpArK

*Selex Signs for Eurofighter M-scan Radars.*

By TOM KINGTON 
Published: 5 Oct 2010 13:06







ROME - Selex Galileo, a unit of Italy's Finmeccanica, has received a 200 million pound ($316.45 million) contract to supply 88 Captor radar systems for Eurofighter Typhoon aircraft, the firm said Oct. 5.

The mechanically scanned, or M-scan, radars, which have equipped first- and second-tranche Typhoons, were ordered for the so-called Tranche 3A aircraft.


Deliveries are due to commence in 2012. To date, Selex Galileo, EADS Defense Electronics and Indra have together produced more than 400 Captor radars.

Tranche 3A is the first lot of a larger envisaged third tranche of Typhoons.

The Eurofighter partners are *now planning* the development of an electronically scanned array radar as a successor to the Captor.


Selex Signs for Eurofighter M-scan Radars - Defense News



Avionews - Agenzia stampa del settore aeronautico, elicotteristico, aerospaziale e della difesa

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## SpArK

_There is nothing new, but saw it today on Brahmand.. so posting.. 

maybe a quick recap_


*The future air power of India  MMRCA*
MMRCA Air Force India 
Posted On: Oct 06, 2010 







The Indian Air Forces Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) competition is nearing completion. Indian Air Chief Marshal PV Naik recently said that the contract for supplying 126 MMRCA fighters to the IAF will be signed soon.

On July, 2010, IAF completed its evaluation report of the field trials conducted for six global fighters contending for the MMRCA deal.

The evaluation report was then submitted to the Ministry of Defence (MoD) whereon it will be discussed by the Cabinet Committee on Security, after which the process of awarding the contract would be initiated. Once the MoD finalises the shortlisted contenders, the complex process of negotiations will begin leading to the awarding of the deal to the winner.

India's $10.4 billion tender to acquire 126 fighter aircraft

India's planned multi-billion dollar aircraft deal is the biggest contract ever since the 1990s. In 2001, IAF sent out its request for information (RFI) for the 126 fighters. After delays lasting almost 2 years beyond the planned December 2005 issue date, the Ministry of Defence finally announced a formal Request for Proposal (RFP) on August 2007. 

Six global fighters  Lockheed Martin's F-16 Super Viper, Eurofighter's Typhoon, Russian United Aircraft's MiG-35, France's Dassault Aviation's Rafale, Swedish SAAB's Gripen and Boeing's F/A-18  had submitted their bids in response to it.

According to reports, the Indian government will be buying the first 18 aircraft directly from the manufacturer. The remaining fighters will be built under licence with a transfer of technology (ToT) by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) based in Bangalore, India.

The delivery will start within 36 months of contract signing and will be completed 48 months later.

The competitors for the MMRCA deal

When the RFIs were announced, six contenders bid for the order- the Saab Gripen, Eurofighter Typhoon, Dassault Rafale, Mikoyan MiG-35 and the American F-16IN and F/A-18IN. Out of these six, Russias Mikoyan and Frances Dassault companies are regular suppliers of aircraft to the IAF compared to the other four contenders.

The six contending fighters for the deal are the latest combat aircraft that are being developed or fielded today.

*Eurofighter Typhoon*

The Eurofighter Typhoon is a twin-engine canard-delta wing multirole aircraft designed and built by a European consortium of three companies: Alenia Aeronautica, BAE Systems, and EADS working through a holding company Eurofighter GmbH, which was formed in 1986. The aircraft has high agility at supersonic speed and also has a supercruise capability that can fly at sustained speeds offering high reliability.

Eurofighter is offering the Tranche-3 Typhoon for the Indian requirement, equipped with the Captor-E (CAESAR) AESA radar. The aircraft also has a broad spectrum of operational advantages, such as excellent adaptability to severe weather conditions, high mission effectiveness and survivability in threat situations. EADS has even been invited by India to become a partner for the Eurofighter Typhoon programme if the Typhoon wins the MMRCA contract, and will be given technological and development participation in future tranches of the Typhoon.

*Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet	*

The Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet is a twin-engine 4.5 generation carrier-based multirole fighter aircraft. The Super Hornet is a larger and more advanced variant of the F/A-18C/D Hornet.

The single seat F/A-18/E and the two seat F/A-18/F flies greater ranges, with heavier payloads using a more powerful engine which provides greater survivability. Its powerful AN/APG-79 AESA radar has generated significant interest in India. This radar could allow Super Hornets to play a unique role in Indias fighter fleet due to their radars performance and information sharing abilities.

Boeing has proposed joint manufacturing of the fighters with Indian partners. It also plans to offset the cost by setting up a $100 million maintenance and training hub in Nagpur, Maharashtra. This is the first time that the Super Hornet has been offered for production in a foreign country.

On the availability of Super Hornet's APG-79 AESA radar, the US government has given its approval but has stated that there would be some restrictions and pre-conditions for the purchase of the aircraft.

*Dassault Rafale*

The Rafale is a French twin-engined delta-wing agile multi-role 4.5th-generation fighter aircraft designed and built by Dassault Aviation. The Rafale was brought in as a replacement for the Mirage 2000-5 that was originally a competitor for the MMRCA tender.

The fighter aircraft is capable of carrying out a wide range of short and long-range missions that include ground and sea attack, air defence and high accuracy strike or nuclear strike deterrence.

The Rafale has the advantage of being logistically and operationally similar to the Mirage 2000. The aircraft has a distinct advantage as it was used with great success during the Kargil War in 1999.

Since the IAF has already been equipped with the French Mirage 2000 fighters, the inclusion of Rafale would require fewer changes in the existing infrastructure of the IAF, which in turn will reduce cost.

The Transfer of Technology (ToT) is again smooth with no end user restrictions. The French government has already cleared full technology transfer of the Rafale to India, including that of the RBE2-AA AESA radar, which will be integrated with the fighter by 2010, and has also cleared the transfer of software source codes.

Initially it was reported that Rafale was declared out of the race after it did not meet Indias technical evaluation criteria. The recommendation was made by the Technical Evaluation Committee, as Dassault did not provide information on some equipment and add-ons that the IAF wanted in the aircraft. But later on, at a meeting of the Defence Procurement Board, the fighter aircraft was allowed to re-enter the race.

*Lockheed Martin F-16 Super Viper*

The F-16IN Super Viper is a unique new fighter sharing a heritage with the world's only fifth generation fighters  the F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter and the F-22 Raptor. The Super Viper has the most advanced technologies and capabilities which include AN/APG-80 AESA radar, Net-Centric Warfare capability, an infrared search and track (IRST) system, advanced survivability features, enhanced high-thrust engines and proven combat and operational effectiveness.


India initially sent the RFI for the F-16C/D Block 52+ configuration aircraft. But, Lockheed Martin proposed the customised F-16IN for the MMRCA competition. If F-16IN wins the contract, then Lockheed Martin will also offer to sell the F-35 lightning aircraft in future as replacements.

But the Indian government and IAF have never seemed very keen on buying the F-16s as the Pakistan Air Force already operates the same warplane. The capabilities of the F-16s also appear to be similar to that of the Mirage 2000s operated by the IAF.

*SAAB Gripen IN*

The SAAB Gripen is a lightweight single engine multirole fighter aircraft manufactured by the Swedish aerospace company SAAB.

Gripen IN (a version of the Gripen NG- Next Generation) is the most technologically advanced fighter and is equipped with futuristic warfare technologies developed specifically for India. The Gripen NG has increased fuel capacity, more powerful powerplant, higher payload, upgraded avionics and other improvements.

The fighter aircraft has a powerful and proven GEs F414G engine, AESA radar, advanced communication system, advanced electronic warfare, tactical data link, and advanced weapons capacity. Its other strengths include the ability operate from roads instead of runways if necessary and also reasonable purchase cost.

SAAB, if wins the bid, is willing to form a joint venture with Indian aerospace industry with the aim to develop the next generation of fighters and also provide access to all levels of technology.

*Mikoyan MiG-35
*

The Mikoyan MiG-35 (Fulcrum-F) is a further development of the MiG-29M/M2 and MiG-29K/KUB technology. The IAF already operates MiG-29s, and the Navy has ordered MiG-29K/KUBs for its INS Vikramaditya and INS Vikrant-class aircraft carriers.

The single seat version is designated MiG-35 and the two-seat version is MiG-35D. The fighter has vastly improved avionics and weapon systems, notably the new Phazotron Zhuk-AE AESA radar, the RD-33MK engines and the newly designed Optical Locator System (OLS).

The IAF already has maintenance and upgrade facilities for the MiG-29. Therefore, it will be very much easier to buy the Russian-made aircraft with a minimum of expenditure on infrastructure. Also Russia is willing to give full ToT, which is an added advantage. Russia has provided support for equipments in the past also during international sanctions.

*Comparison*

All six contenders are equipped with state-of-the-art avionics and AESA (Active Electronically Scanned Array) airborne radar with only marginal differences in performance. There is also little difference in their armament carrying capacity and, where needed, such changes/modifications should be possible.

The Dassault Rafale, the Eurofighter Typhoon and the Boeing F/A-18 Super Hornet are all twin-engine fighters in the 25-30 tonne class. All of them are reportedly very expensive. The MiG-35, also a twin-engined aircraft, was first unveiled at Aero India Show-2007 at Bangalore, India. Its official price is still unknown but will preferably be lower than the other expensive bidders. The other two competitors, F-16IN and Gripen IN are relatively lightweight fighters but can carry a weapon load of around 8000 kg. Both are highly manoeuvrable multirole fighters.

*Conclusion*

The final chapter on the 'mother of all deals'  the MMRCA competition  will be written soon and major issues like access to technology, technology transfer, reliable spares and maintenance support throughout the projected life of the aircraft, etc will play key role in the decision making. There are media reports that political factor is likely to influence the choice of the MMRCA other than the performance and cost.

The contract is likely to be wrapped up sometime next year, and the MMRCA is expected to join the IAF fleet in early 2017. 

Currently, the strength of the IAF is 34 squadrons (over 640 aircraft). By 2022, the IAF fighters fleet would comprise of the Sukhois, indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) 'Tejas', MMRCA, indigenous Medium Combat Aircraft (modelled on LCA) and fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) that India is developing jointly with the Russians.

Courtesy:
Global Security
SAAB Gripen
Lockheed Martin
Boeing
Dassault Aviation
RAC MiG
Press Trust of India

The future air power of India  MMRCA :: Brahmand.com

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## jha

EF people are really $creW!ing their chances with not going for AESA in tranche-3.
Unless India and EADS come to an agreement of getting AESA from elsewhere (like israel), its bye bye EF...


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## sancho

jha said:


> EF people are really $creW!ing their chances with not going for AESA in tranche-3.
> Unless India and EADS come to an agreement of getting AESA from elsewhere (like israel), its bye bye EF...



They will get it in T3, but only in the later B part. The partner countries simply have not the money for these developments now, only Germanys economy is rising again, but even they are reducing their defense budget.
EADS is only one partner of the EF, but the AESA radar is mainly developed by Selex Galileo and based on the Swashplate design. I highly doubt they will give their ok to integrate a differen radar, not to forget that even the status of Eltas 2052 radar is unclear (tested on a bigger aicraft, but also on any fighter?).

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## Dash

I seriously have no reason to vote for EF now. The only thing is this lucrative offer they are giving like they will make us a partner is not looking good at all. With serious capability issues like this....EF is going to be out.

Rafale and F-18 with Gripen are the front runners in terms of readiness and offerings.


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## redpearl75

Dash said:


> I seriously have no reason to vote for EF now. The only thing is this lucrative offer they are giving like they will make us a partner is not looking good at all. With serious capability issues like this....EF is going to be out.
> 
> Rafale and F-18 with Gripen are the front runners in terms of readiness and offerings.



Amen! I hope so... Rest all are not good compared to these three...


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## SpArK

Rafale's prospects are not looking good even. UAE and Brasil deals are seriously in trouble.

Would be a nice time for The Americans to win with already the engine deal.

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## SQ8

While it could be a good debate on the pro's and con's of more than one supplier and more than one type. If this is the case.. then the IAF near 2020 would have Su-30's,Mig-29's,MRCA1,MRCA2,LCA,FGFA,M2K.. that is seven different fighters with some having overlapping roles.
While the rest of the world is concentrating on reducing its types to reduce costs.. the IAF seems to be doing the opposite... Although I am unsure of what the ASR's might be.. could it be a case of having suddenly too much in the coffers. Although like the PAF there may a few smart alec sycophantic officers at the top influencing such decisions.. and undermine those professional who made it on merit and hard work. 
Long story short, the need for such a diverse fleet considering India's neighbors and its expected power projection is a little confusing.


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## black flame

santro said:


> While it could be a good debate on the pro's and con's of more than one supplier and more than one type. If this is the case.. then the IAF near 2020 would have *Su-30's,Mig-29's,MRCA1,MRCA2,LCA,FGFA,M2K..* that is seven different fighters with some having overlapping roles.
> While the rest of the world is concentrating on reducing its types to reduce costs.. the IAF seems to be doing the opposite... Although I am unsure of what the ASR's might be.. could it be a case of having suddenly too much in the coffers. Although like the PAF there may a few smart alec sycophantic officers at the top influencing such decisions.. and undermine those professional who made it on merit and hard work.
> Long story short, the need for such a diverse fleet considering India's neighbors and its expected power projection is a little confusing.



dude Where did u get the MRCA2.............it is SU30 mig 29 MMRCA FGFA (PAKFA) LCA jag and Mirag 2ks...........


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## ironman

santro said:


> While it could be a good debate on the pro's and con's of more than one supplier and more than one type. If this is the case.. then the IAF near 2020 would have Su-30's,Mig-29's,MRCA1,MRCA2,LCA,FGFA,M2K.. that is seven different fighters with some having overlapping roles.
> While the rest of the world is concentrating on reducing its types to reduce costs.. the IAF seems to be doing the opposite... Although I am unsure of what the ASR's might be.. could it be a case of having suddenly too much in the coffers. Although like the PAF there may a few smart alec sycophantic officers at the top influencing such decisions.. and undermine those professional who made it on merit and hard work.
> Long story short, the need for such a diverse fleet considering India's neighbors and its expected power projection is a little confusing.



Indian Air Force Strives For Commonality | AVIATION WEEK


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## redpearl75

ironman said:


> Indian Air Force Strives For Commonality | AVIATION WEEK



And based on that if IAF goes for Migs we are in deep trouble then.....


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## SpArK

redpearl75 said:


> And based on that if IAF goes for Migs we are in deep trouble then.....



*Rafale's shares some commonality with M2K*.


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## redpearl75

It's just that IAF or for that matter the Govt doesn't want to go for or rather explore something new.. All they want is to use the already existing assembly and maintainance line to use for MRCA and if possible keep it for that..... The Govt. can spend millions and billions on dying and rusting material but doesn't bloody feel the need to upgrade itself practically..... all we have and think is Russia, Russian and, Russia... That's all... Are we truly an independent country in terms of military hardware or we have given every damn order has to go to Russia and we concider them our first choice... Why????? it will be an order for about 200-250 jets as a part of this MRCA deal, where in the hell does commonality comes in here.... It will anyway need a new assembly line and a maintainance team.... Followed by 300 FGFA.... Im sick and tired of listening to the Govt crap which is direly based on what we have and have been using...


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## sancho

santro said:


> While the rest of the world is concentrating on reducing its types to reduce costs.. the IAF seems to be doing the opposite... Although I am unsure of what the ASR's might be.. could it be a case of having suddenly too much in the coffers.



That's not correct!
IAF had and has at the moment 7 different types of fighters (Mig 21, 23, 27, 29, Mirage 2000, Jaguars, and Su 30 MKIs) and according to the IAF Chief the aim is 4 types in the near future (LCA, MMRCA, Su 30 MKI and Pak Fa / FGFA). As you can see the different types will be reduced for sure, only the total numbers of fighters will be increased.


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## rsingh

Self delete


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## RPK

The report has the details of the performance of the six competing fighters on 643 different requirements with each aircraft being marked compliant or non-compliant with each parameter.
Multi-role aircraft deal expected to be finalised by next year: IAF chief - India - DNA


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## sudhir007

Indian Air Force Chief Expects MRCA Deal Winner to be chosen by July 2011 | India Defence

India, which is racing to upgrade its military, is likely to hand out a 12-billion-dollar contract for 126 fighter jets by July 2011, the country's air force chief said on Friday. Six global aeronautical companies are in a dogfight to grab the deal to sell 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) to the Indian Air Force, which is also shopping for up to 270 Russian-designed Sukhoi war jets .

"We had submitted the MMRCA report with the defence ministry on July 30 and if everything goes of well, then the contract should be signed by July 30 next year," Air Chief Marshal P.V. Naik said, the Press Trust of India reported. India issued the request for proposals to the six short-listed firms in August 2007 and the long-awaited trials of the aircraft competing for the world's most lucrative fighter jet contract began last year.

Air Chief Marshal Naik's announcement came a day after Moscow and New Delhi unveiled plans to co-develop 250-300 advanced stealth fighter jets for military technology-hungry India.

American companies, Lockheed Martin F-16IN, Boeing F/A-18, French Dassault Rafale, EADS Eurofighter Typhoon, Saab Gripen and Russian MiG-35 are in the running for the 126 aircraft deal which is expected to replace the aging MiG-21s. According to sources, "Vendors who are compliant rule wise, Defence Procurement Policy and Technical offsets will ultimately be opened for consideration. Also, the lowest bidder, designated L1, will be selected as the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MRCA)."


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## sancho

So can we expect a shortlist soon?


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## sudhir007

sancho said:


> So can we expect a shortlist soon?



May be MOD does not want declare now or may be they disclose after all the president who's coming in (Russia, US, France) goes back. coze they does not want to make any political issue or does not want to unhappy our visiter coze of mcra.


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## Marxist

NEW DELHI: India, which is racing to upgrade its military, is likely to hand out a 12-billion-dollar contract for 126 fighter jets by July 2011, the country's air force chief said on Friday.

Six global aeronautical companies are in a dogfight to grab the deal to sell 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) to the Indian Air Force, which is also shopping for up to 270 Russian-designed Sukhoi war jets .

"We had submitted the MMRCA report with the defence ministry on July 30 and if everything goes of well, then the contract should be signed by July 30 next year," air chief marshall P.V. Naik said, the Press Trust of India reported.

India issued the request for proposals to the six short-listed firms in August 2007 and the long-awaited trials of the aircraft competing for the world's most lucrative fighter jet contract began last year.

*US-based Lockheed Martin, offering F-16, and Boeing's F-18 "Superhornet" emerged as the front-runners following the gruelling trials, industry sources have said.*

The European Aeronautic Defence and Space Company has offered its Typhoon Eurofighter and French Dassault, which constructs the Mirage, has put forward its Rafale.

Russian manufacturers of the MiG-35 and MiG-29, as well as Sweden's Saab, which is hawking its Gripen fighter, are also in the running for the biggest fighter jet contract in 16 years.

The contract includes the outright purchase of 18 fighter jets by 2012 with another 108 to be built in India.

India would also have an option to buy 64 more such jets.

Air chief marshall Naik's announcement came a day after Moscow and New Delhi unveiled plans to co-develop 250-300 advanced stealth fighter jets for military technology-hungry India.

Aviation experts say the 30-ton Russian-designed planes could cost up to 100 million dollars each. 

India to hand out giant war jet deal by July: air force - The Economic Times

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## redpearl75

F 18 Sounds good, but F 16? Not that..... F 18 and Rafale should have been the leading conteders as fas as we all knew... Still can't say anything now as it again got further delaid to July 2011 and god know how far it will get dragged....


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## kingdurgaking

redpearl75 said:


> And based on that if IAF goes for Migs we are in deep trouble then.....



IAF chief already hinted that only 5 platforms will be operated in a decade

1) PAK FA
2) MKI
3) AMCA
4) Tejas
5) MMRCA

MMRCA is kept separate.. so i guess it can be Migs or it cannot be.. They are altogether kept seperately..


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## kingdurgaking

sudhir007 said:


> May be MOD does not want declare now or may be they disclose after all the president who's coming in (Russia, US, France) goes back. coze they does not want to make any political issue or does not want to unhappy our visiter coze of mcra.



I too have the same feeling.. Of the 3 who is going to give the best of other deals or cooperation for India .. India will opt the same...


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## kingdurgaking

Marxist said:


> NEW DELHI: India, which is racing to upgrade its military, is likely to hand out a 12-billion-dollar contract for 126 fighter jets by July 2011, the country's air force chief said on Friday.



I have a doubt.. First the deal worth was $10^9, then it was $11^9 and now it is $12^9.. why is it keeping on increasing.. any specific reason?


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## redpearl75

kingdurgaking said:


> I have a doubt.. First the deal worth was $10^9, then it was $11^9 and now it is $12^9.. why is it keeping on increasing.. any specific reason?



10 Billion $ was the actual budget based on the theoritical assumption and after the trieals things have changed and now the government is willing to shell out more in order to get the best out of whichever jet is going to get selected... Like the full TOT... and all that stuff...


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## Tejas-MkII

Now i think it will go to f-18.......


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## redpearl75

I would have loved it had it been Rafale... Love the design, weapon options, Cockpit and capacity to carry.... It rocks man.....


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## kingdurgaking

redpearl75 said:


> I would have loved it had it been Rafale... Love the design, weapon options, Cockpit and capacity to carry.... It rocks man.....



Yaakk ... no ... Only Euro fighter


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## SpArK

kingdurgaking said:


> Yaakk ... no ... Only Euro fighter





Anything except Eurofighter and Grippen

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## kingdurgaking

BENNY said:


> Anything except Eurofighter and Grippen



Oke neither for you and for me.. we will settle with Tejas MK2


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## SpArK

kingdurgaking said:


> Oke neither for you and for me.. we will settle with Tejas MK2



No dude .. buying a fighter with complicated background with a consortium of recession hit countries and a fighter with no AESA anywhere in near future makes it less attractive..

lots of news have been reported with labour troubles and strikes...

not to talk about the high price and bigger maintenance costs.

EF will never win or never should win.

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## Dash

kingdurgaking said:


> I have a doubt.. First the deal worth was $10^9, then it was $11^9 and now it is $12^9.. why is it keeping on increasing.. any specific reason?


Budget fluctuation happens, now dont worry about the money. Its 126 fighters initially, whatever we buy will be in that budget. now you have an idea....


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## marcos98




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## jha

BENNY said:


> Anything except Eurofighter and Grippen



Anything except RAFALE


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## SpArK

jha said:


> Anything except RAFALE



That leaves us with Superbug.. which probably gonna win the race.


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## SpArK

marcos98 said:


> YouTube - Gripen NG with new fuel tanks



Commonality of LCA with Gripen is now at its peak , now with same engines.


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## jha

BENNY said:


> That leaves us with Superbug.. which probably gonna win the race.



Anyone except the french..The french fries today i had did not taste good..


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## SpArK

jha said:


> Anyone except the french..The french fries today i had did not taste good..



Mirage-s has been the most useful Fighter we have ever used in distant past.

With no sanction fears , no care attitude of the frenchies , it has to be the best suitable solution.

Not to say how sophisticated and beautiful the fighter is.

Now your turn to say why not Frenchie?


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## FSLN

BENNY said:


> That leaves us with Superbug.. which probably gonna win the race.



...


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## SpArK

FSLN said:


> ...


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## jha

BENNY said:


> Mirage-s has been the most useful Fighter we have ever used in distant past.
> 
> With no sanction fears , no care attitude of the frenchies , it has to be the best suitable solution.
> 
> Not to say how sophisticated and beautiful the fighter is.
> 
> Now your turn to say why not Frenchie?



because they are too expensive and for every upgrade they will cost more than a new plane.. ( although i doubt that we will be doing a massive upgrade of MRCA in future like we are doing for Mirage.).. 

Actually I am just in favor of fast delivery..whoever delivers first should get the deal ( except Mig and 16 )..


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## SpArK

jha said:


> because they are too expensive and for every upgrade they will cost more than a new plane.. ( although i doubt that we will be doing a massive upgrade of MRCA in future like we are doing for Mirage.)..
> 
> Actually I am just in favor of fast delivery..whoever delivers first should get the deal ( except Mig and 16 )..



Of course the French are money hungry. Who is not?? iT was more uglier in case of Sukhoi's latest upgrade and Admiral Gorshkov deals.

We will get to know about the Europe once we start dealing with them. 

But the mirage upgrade program will make it a completly new aircraft and it will on par with the best.

Fast delivery?/

Dassault was the only manufacturer who offered 40 aircrafts in the shortest span of time..

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/63101-france-offers-indian-air-force-purchasing-40-rafale-fighters.html




> Actually I am just in favor of fast delivery..whoever delivers first should get the deal



Now speak.


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## jha

BENNY said:


> Of course the French are money hungry. Who is not?? iT was more uglier in case of Sukhoi's latest upgrade and Admiral Gorshkov deals.
> 
> We will get to know about the Europe once we start dealing with them.
> 
> But the mirage upgrade program will make it a completly new aircraft and it will on par with the best.
> 
> Fast delivery?/
> 
> Dassault was the only manufacturer who offered 40 aircrafts in the shortest span of time..
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/63101-france-offers-indian-air-force-purchasing-40-rafale-fighters.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now speak.



I want fastest delivery..if it is french then be it...
But i doubt they will win..They seem to be a little high headed.. or, else UAE and Brazil deals seemed to be in their pocket..


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## SpArK

jha said:


> I *want fastest delivery*..if it is french then be it...



Chill out dude.. it will come in DHL courier..or FED Ex.

Just kidding.



> But i doubt they will win..They seem to be a little high headed.. or, else UAE and Brazil deals seemed to be in their pocket..



UAE is highly influenced by US.

Brasil the fight is still going on between F-18, Gripen and Rafale..



Anyway lets stop the fact finding as i have won hands down..

Now the overall score line reads 3-0 in favor of me.


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## kingdurgaking

BENNY said:


> No dude .. buying a fighter with complicated background with a consortium of recession hit countries and a fighter with no AESA anywhere in near future makes it less attractive..
> 
> lots of news have been reported with labour troubles and strikes...
> 
> not to talk about the high price and bigger maintenance costs.
> 
> EF will never win or never should win.



US & France is also recession hit and US will impose more restriction us like monitoring.. no change in configuration etc etc.. where as with france.. they are determined to sell things to china.. 

AESA may look important.. but we have AWACS so AESA is a secondary option.. As a long term strategic goal Eurofighter typhoon is keen to provide both for civil aviation and military aviation + share of work though it is less but still something is better than nothing..+ they got to any extent with TOT..They are the partners with Tejas.. where as we dont have such option with any other partners especially not with France and US... though they EF are costly but they are better compared to all other options available (strategically & politically)... ... Please provide such benefits with other partners apart from inbuilt features like AESA... lets compare which is a good one .. which will be a good debate...

So Eurofighter should and must win...


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## kingdurgaking

BENNY said:


> That leaves us with Superbug.. which probably gonna win the race.



Super bug is very buggy ... It is a product full of bugs... I am not going to pay my tax if that is chosen .. that will be my revolt


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## SpArK

kingdurgaking said:


> US & France is also recession hit and US will impose more restriction us like monitoring.. no change in configuration etc etc.. where as with france.. they are determined to sell things to china..
> 
> AESA may look important.. but we have AWACS so AESA is a secondary option.. As a long term strategic goal Eurofighter typhoon is good both for civil aviation and military aviation + share of work.. though it is less but still something is better than nothing.. where as we dont have such option with any other partners especially not with France and US... though they EF are costly but they are better compared to all other options available (strategically & politically)... ... Please provide such benefits with other partners apart from inbuilt features... lets compare...
> 
> So Eurofighter should and must win...



US arms industry is safer and France arms export has risen 13% in the previous year.

The Chinese factor is irrelevant. Even Russia does the same.Lets talk about MRCA fighters only.

AESA is not a second option but a primary option as stipulated on the document tender.

EF has only started developing on M-Scan Radar and is only"planning" an AESA.

Selex receives M-scan radar contract from Eurofighter :: Brahmand.com


And tell me how is EF beneficial in terms of political???

As far as i know we have been only successful in getting political gains from Russian and France (Recent avionics issue).

Can there be guarentee as to prevent any sales from say a sale of a naval ship from Spain to any of our adversary???


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## kingdurgaking

BENNY said:


> Mirage-s has been the most useful Fighter we have ever used in distant past.
> 
> With no sanction fears , no care attitude of the frenchies , it has to be the best suitable solution.
> 
> Not to say how sophisticated and beautiful the fighter is.
> 
> Now your turn to say why not Frenchie?



I like Rafael to win if it is not Eurofighter...further it is underpowered.. I guess it didnt fare well in Leh...


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## SpArK

kingdurgaking said:


> Super bug is very buggy ... It is a product full of bugs... I am not going to pay my tax if that is chosen .. that will be my revolt



I dont like the deal either.. Its more than sanctions especially when the manufacturer is the biggest trading partner of one adversary and an Allie of the other one.


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## SpArK

kingdurgaking said:


> I like Rafael to win if it is not Eurofighter...further it is underpowered.. I guess it didnt fare well in Leh...




I too like Rafael among them ..

The later part can be answered by sancho, dash, anathema and co.


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## kingdurgaking

BENNY said:


> We will get to know about the Europe once we start dealing with them.



With Jags and Hawks i guess there is no problem with money... they are always good and are more reliable... Further Mirage is a different successful product compared to Rafael.. it is a screwed up work by France who developed it because EU didnt accept to use snecma in Eurofighter... EU did find Snecma is underpowered and it is still ..
And want to highlight that France was in Eurofighter project first and latter dropped because of engine.. so Eurofighter is the boss of Rafael... 

so Benny deal with the boss to get the work done than his subordinates .. so change your opinion to EF


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## kish

Rafale cockpit is beautiful . . . . I love to see it in iaf . . .but one question does it has operational AESA ? And also GE got the contract for tejas engine . . How much effect on fighter deal because of this ?


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## FSLN

kish said:


> but one question does it has operational AESA ? ?



Negative, the only proven AESA its the SuperHornet's.....


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## kingdurgaking

BENNY said:


> US arms industry is safer and France arms export has risen 13&#37; in the previous year.
> 
> The Chinese factor is irrelevant. Even Russia does the same.Lets talk about MRCA fighters only.
> 
> AESA is not a second option but a primary option as stipulated on the document tender.
> 
> EF has only started developing on M-Scan Radar and is only"planning" an AESA.
> 
> Selex receives M-scan radar contract from Eurofighter :: Brahmand.com
> 
> 
> And tell me how is EF beneficial in terms of political???
> 
> As far as i know we have been only successful in getting political gains from Russian and France (Recent avionics issue).
> 
> Can there be guarentee as to prevent any sales from say a sale of a naval ship from Spain to any of our adversary???



No Sirjee US arms is safe ... but for whom?? only for NATO ....as for France Rafael is already in risk ... There are no prospect customers.. Only one country that is France.. Secondly if you take UAE deal it is very ambitious and it doesnt come under the existing product at all.. Last is the brazil which has very less order.. Apart from that there are no prospects.. they are dead and they will throw there liability on us for sure.... so Rafael should not be considered if it is only EF the other in the race... 

As for Russia dealing with China ... they are not giving the same product or will not be giving high end as they have suffered enough.. where as it is not the case with France.. they are desperate.. and china will capitalize that for sure... 

If AESA is mandatory then the product will come with AESA otherwise the product will be rejected .. so EU will come out with AESA.. 

For Political gains EU is the second powerful group that holds the power in the world.. France alone cannot dominate EU.. it will loose to them terribly.. And politically we can arm twist them easily for the deals they are doing with Pakistan and they dont deal with China altogether... Further in addition to EF we also can get Civil aviation benefits which will be a big ++ for us.. so tell me what can France provide us.. As for avionics with Pakistan they havent cancelled yet.. they are checking whether they will be able to pay or not... If Pakistan pays deal will be through...


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## kish

kingdurgaking said:


> Super bug is very buggy ... It is a product full of bugs... I am not going to pay my tax if that is chosen .. that will be my revolt



Income tax vale khoon chus lenge . . . . . . .


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## SpArK

kingdurgaking said:


> With Jags and Hawks i guess there is no problem with money... they are always good and are more reliable... Further Mirage is a different successful product compared to Rafael.. it is a screwed up work by France who developed it because EU didnt accept to use snecma in Eurofighter... EU did find Snecma is underpowered and it is still ..
> And want to highlight that France was in Eurofighter project first and latter dropped because of engine.. so Eurofighter is the boss of Rafael...
> 
> so Benny deal with the boss to get the work done than his subordinates .. so change your opinion to EF




Still unclear about the Jaguar rebid of honeywell engine and Hawks have ran in past in controversies regarding "spares" (disruption of supply) and some issues in damages claims.

Nope i am still a compulsive EF hater.



Nope Engine was not at all the issue for France's withdrawal..

It was ego between Germany and France as far as i know.

Wiki link of Eurofighter has more details.

Snecma-M88 is underpowered indeed. But their Thrust/weight ratio is not that bad either.


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## kish

BENNY said:


> I too like Rafael among them ..
> 
> The later part can be answered by sancho, dash, anathema and co.



U forget one . . Benny . 
Kidding . . Some member really in my favourite list u mention some i mention one . . . . I learnt a lot from u and some other . . Great job . . Keep it up

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## kingdurgaking

BENNY said:


> Still unclear about the Jaguar rebid of honeywell engine and Hawks have ran in past in controversies regarding "spares" (disruption of supply) and some issues in damages claims.
> 
> Nope i am still a compulsive EF hater.
> 
> Nope Engine was not at all the issue for France's withdrawal..
> 
> It was ego between Germany and France as far as i know.
> 
> Wiki link of Eurofighter has more details.
> 
> Snecma-M88 is underpowered indeed. But their Thrust/weight ratio is not that bad either.



All the issues are resolved and HAL is a happy customer now... A new deal is signed with Britain PM came here .. Engine was one of the issue in the ego clash... 

If one of the guy has got ego .. what else the other 3 can do... Why will UK, Germany, Italy and others will listen to whatever France say??.. A deal has to be equally shared and it doesnt make sense for France to talk so... so join the good guys EF and leave the bad guy(only for Rafael) .. Benny i think i can convince you very soon

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## SpArK

There is also a production line factor. 

i dont know how much it is relevant to the deal.

As far as i know EF has around 550+ orders from participating nations + Saudi Arabia ( though numbers are down due to bad economy )

F-18 with recent 124 US navy deal+ Australia deal+ possible UAE deal

Rafale- less than 100..

So join the que or see the bird fly faster like jha said.


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## SpArK

kingdurgaking said:


> All the issues are resolved and HAL is a happy customer now... A new deal is signed with Britain PM came here .. Engine was one of the issue ...
> 
> If one of the guy has got ego .. what else the other 3 can do... Why will UK, Germany, Italy and others will listen to whatever France say??.. A deal has to be equally shared and it doesnt make sense for France to talk so... so join the good guys EF and leave the bad guy(only for Rafael) .. Benny i think i can convince you very soon



How do u know France was the bad guy??

Any reasons ???

EF has countries which has sanctioned us in past economically while France was generous.


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## kingdurgaking

kish said:


> U forget one . . Benny .
> Kidding . . Some member really in my dauntst list u mention some i mention one . . . . I learnt a lot from u and some other . . Great job . . Keep it up



I hope you are not talking about me  .. One suggestion i will give you.. This is a forum and we hang here for fun and information... take everything lightly ... No personal feelings.. as you wont even know the face of any one here... and neither we live together...

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## SpArK

kingdurgaking said:


> I hope you are not talking about me  .. One suggestion i will give you.. This is a forum and we hang here for fun and information... take everything lightly ... No personal feelings.. as you wont even know the face of any one here... and neither we live together...



mate, the only dissadvantage as far as i know is the engine

Hope when the project M88-M88 X-9 completes we will see a fighter much better than EF.It is supposed to be of 20.250lbf from the present 17,000 lbf engine.


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## kish

kingdurgaking said:


> I hope you are not talking about me  .. One suggestion i will give you.. This is a forum and we hang here for fun and information... take everything lightly ... No personal feelings.. as you wont even know the face of any one here... and neither we live together...



Pls read my post again . . . . . I edit that word . . Mistyped because of t9 of mob and i didnt noticed it . . . Sorry if i hurt u . . But i m big fan of u benny , jha , sancho . . . . . . . . . . . (Cant list all ) . . . . . . . .


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## kingdurgaking

BENNY said:


> How do u know France was the bad guy??
> 
> Any reasons ???
> 
> EF has countries which has sanctioned us in past economically while France was generous.



France was bad guy as per wiki he even threated Spain to drop out... but Spain choose EF... so cant you see France was the bad guy here ... this is just only for Rafael oke.. not for everything... This discussion is only on the context of Rafael.. 

And for Sanctions though it was imposed but every one revoked it Very soon only US and Japan are still holding... Which doesn't make France generous .... One bad thing about France was this whole MMRCA drama is only because of France when it pushed india for Rafael instead of Mirages on which we were interested...

so benny Join us in EF favour .. i think i am near in convincing you


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## SpArK

kish said:


> Pls read my post again . . . . . I edit that word . . Mistyped because of t9 of mob and i didnt noticed it . . . Sorry if i hurt u . . But i m big fan of u* benny* , jha , sancho . . . . . . . . . . . (Cant list all ) . . . . . . . .



Dude i am not a defense expert .. all these things i said are from the hours i spend on here from the experts like them.. if u go back few pages there were interesting debates involving sancho , prateek and few others.. most of the rest just listen to that and got the knowledge. Afterall that is the main purpose of a "defence forum".


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## SpArK

kingdurgaking said:


> France was bad guy as per wiki he even threated Spain to drop out... but Spain choose EF... so cant you see France was the bad guy here ... this is just only for Rafael oke.. not for everything... This discussion is only on the context of Rafael..
> 
> And for Sanctions though it was imposed but every one revoked it Very soon only US and Japan are still holding... Which doesn't make France generous .... One bad thing about France was this whole MMRCA drama is only because of France when it pushed india for Rafael instead of Mirages on which we were interested...



Ideally the problem was as to who will lead the program and france's insistence ahead of UK was justifiable.

Tell me one fighter made by the others which can match a Mirage made by France.

Tornado???


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## kingdurgaking

BENNY said:


> mate, the only dissadvantage as far as i know is the engine
> 
> Hope when the project M88-M88 X-9 completes we will see a fighter much better than EF.It is supposed to be of 20.250lbf from the present 17,000 lbf engine.



Bro Rafael is looking for funds for it.. So no sooner it will be on cards until it secures good order from UAE or our MMRCA.... Until then France will have to sail slowly... Where as EF base is strong..with good engine.. and is developing a tranche 3 with powerful Ground attack.. Only Area it lacks is AESA .... which will come eventually when money pours in ... I guess EF is as good as MKI.... though MKI is more powerful but EF can complement it very well..


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## kingdurgaking

BENNY said:


> Ideally the problem was as to who will lead the program and france's insistence ahead of UK was justifiable.
> 
> Tell me one fighter made by the others which can match a Mirage made by France.
> 
> Tornado???



EF .. It is better than Rafael and Mirrage  ... If France lead is justifiable then only UK should have opted out.. Why every one Opted out.. Something is wrong there buddy.. 

And Tornado is formidable one... I liked the Harrier a Unique one...


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## SpArK

kingdurgaking said:


> Bro Rafael is looking for funds for it.. So no sooner it will be on cards until it secures good order from UAE or our MMRCA.... Until then France will have to sail slowly... Where as EF base is strong..with good engine.. and is developing a tranche 3 with powerful Ground attack.. Only Area it lacks is AESA .... which will come eventually when money pours in ... I guess EF is as good as MKI.... though MKI is more powerful but EF can complement it very well..



EF is the one actually in serious trouble with funds.

UK is cutting its funds , delays happened due to germany's delays of decision, Austria reduced it orders.. Saudi deal faced troubles. etc etc..

France, they just need a good partner like we plan to do Kaveri with snecma.. 

I agree to u about MKI part..

See the comparison with Superbug

F/A-18E/F Super Hornet vs. Sukhoi Flanker


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## jha

kish said:


> Pls read my post again . . . . . I edit that word . . Mistyped because of t9 of mob and i didnt noticed it . . . Sorry if i hurt u . . But i m big fan of u benny , *jha *, sancho . . . . . . . . . . . (Cant list all ) . . . . . . . .



Kya baat hai..AUTOGIRAFF chahiye...??

Spend some time here and you will be an expert just like benny said...
BTW Prateek was a very good poster ..So were DOC and others..
But the best was Screaming Skull..
i dont know why they stopped posting..


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## SpArK

kingdurgaking said:


> EF .. It is better than Rafael and Mirrage  ... If France lead is justifiable then only UK should have opted out.. Why every one Opted out.. Something is wrong there buddy..
> 
> And Tornado is formidable one... I liked the Harrier a Unique one...




Another EF ....before the current EF??? We were talking about the planning days .

Nope jealousy..  was the factor..


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## SpArK

jha said:


> Kya baat hai..AUTOGIRAFF chahiye...??
> 
> Spend some time here and you will be an expert just like benny said...
> BTW Prateek was a very good poster ..So were DOC and others..
> But the best was Screaming Skull..
> i dont know why they stopped posting..



Seriously dude. miss their serious talks.. Its like vacation after studies now.

Even Karthik was/became an expert..


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## kish

BENNY said:


> Dude i am not a defense expert .. all these things i said are from the hours i spend on here from the experts like them.. if u go back few pages there were interesting debates involving sancho , prateek and few others.. most of the rest just listen to that and got the knowledge. Afterall that is the main purpose of a "defence forum".



That is what i also do . . And ya i m following them from last few months . . And i prefer to read there post always . . 
But i think king got hurt . . . . But that was misprint . . . And ya u again mention some of my favourite and forget one . . . . . . . Ok enough fun . . Can u tell me rafale have operational AESA or not . . If not then if we select it will it be operational before we induct jet


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## jha

kingdurgaking said:


> With Jags and Hawks i guess there is no problem with money... they are always good and are more reliable... Further Mirage is a different successful product compared to Rafael.. it is a screwed up work by France who developed it because EU didnt accept to use snecma in Eurofighter... EU did find Snecma is underpowered and it is still ..
> *And want to highlight that France was in Eurofighter project first and latter dropped because of engine..* so Eurofighter is the boss of Rafael...
> 
> so Benny deal with the boss to get the work done than his subordinates .. so change your opinion to EF



ho ho ho...Hold it there buddy..France DID not drop because of engine. In addition to the ego clash between France and Germany , the major problem was the difference in Requirements.
The current EF nations wanted a pure Air-superiority aircraft which suited their doctrine at that time while france was always in favor of an omni-role fighter.
Plus there was also an issue in further developing the naval version of aircrafts.France was in favor of this while the other nations were not.
And thats why we will see F-35s flying from QE .

BTW i think EF nations are the losers in this fiasco..

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## SpArK

kish said:


> That is what i also do . . And ya i m following them from last few months . . And i prefer to read there post always . .
> But i think king got hurt . . . . But that was misprint . . . And ya u again mention some of my favourite and forget one . . . . . . . Ok enough fun . . Can u tell me rafale have operational AESA or not . . If not then if we select it will it be operational before we induct jet



On trials now expected in 2012..

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=4697061&c=EUR&s=AIR

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## kingdurgaking

BENNY said:


> EF is the one actually in serious trouble with funds.
> 
> UK is cutting its funds , delays happened due to germany's delays of decision, Austria reduced it orders.. Saudi deal faced troubles. etc etc..
> 
> France, they just need a good partner like we plan to do Kaveri with snecma..
> 
> I agree to u about MKI part..
> 
> See the comparison with Superbug
> 
> F/A-18E/F Super Hornet vs. Sukhoi Flanker




Please look deeply.... What EF has achieved and what Rafael has achieved... Though orders were reduced but not the commitment.. still far more than Rafael... Saudi Deal is through buddy when UK govt intervened on the issue of the fraud i guess... Saudis are getting trained and already one is dead in training ... so dont come back on accident.. It usually happens... 

And i hate F18 ... For that we can go for Rafael...


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## jha

kish said:


> That is what i also do . . And ya i m following them from last few months . . And i prefer to read there post always . .
> But i think king got hurt . . . . But that was misprint . . . And ya u again mention some of my favourite and forget one . . . . . . . Ok enough fun . . *Can u tell me rafale have operational AESA or not . . If not then if we select it will it be operational before we induct jet*



operational..? I dont think so..
Available when we induct them..?? Most probably..

Look AESA is not that a big concern imo ( even though i know that some of the poster will disagree)...The cause according to me is that the future war will be 98% Net centric...We will have the Phalcons and the DRDO AWACs along with the numerous satellites and the huge balloons guiding our pilots..The only use of the Radar will be in close battle which i doubt IAF will want to do..
Another example is SU-30 MKI which is one of the best Fighter available even though it lacks AESA..
Plus we will always have the choice to integrate it when we have our own ready...

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## SpArK

kingdurgaking said:


> Please look deeply.... What EF has achieved and what Rafael has achieved... Though orders were reduced but not the commitment.. still far more than Rafael... Saudi Deal is through buddy when UK govt intervened on the issue of the fraud i guess... Saudis are getting trained and already one is dead in training ... so dont come back on accident.. It usually happens...
> 
> And i hate F18 ... For that we can go for Rafael...




It was commitment for the participation for the program.

As Jha said.. we are looking for a Medium multi role aircraft. Rafale is the only one which can carry a nuke.

And the only European fighter with AESA.

And the only fighter with no strings attached. (apart from MIG-35)

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## jha

kingdurgaking said:


> Please look deeply.... What EF has achieved and what Rafael has achieved... Though orders were reduced but not the commitment.. still far more than Rafael... Saudi Deal is through buddy when UK govt intervened on the issue of the fraud i guess... Saudis are getting trained and already one is dead in training ... so dont come back on accident.. It usually happens...
> 
> And i hate F18 ... For that we can go for Rafael...



What EF has achieved..? Nothing ..Its damn too expensive to procure and even more to maintain and any hope of upgrades is NIL..
What RAFALE has achieved -- Close to nothing because of their alleged High headed attitude..

Infact i am not in favor of a very expensive aircraft for MRCA..I would just like something which fits between LCA and MKI..We already are getting an expensive one in FGFA..

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## jha

BENNY said:


> It was commitment for the participation for the program.
> 
> As Jha said.. *we are looking for a Medium multi role aircraft. Rafale is the only one which can carry a nuke.*
> 
> And the only European fighter with AESA.
> 
> And the only fighter with no strings attached. (apart from MIG-35)



Now thats whole another issue on which I have a slight different opinion..But thats OT..

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## kingdurgaking

jha said:


> ho ho ho...Hold it there buddy..France DID not drop because of engine. In addition to the ego clash between France and Germany , the major problem was the difference in Requirements.
> The current EF nations wanted a pure Air-superiority aircraft which suited their doctrine at that time while france was always in favor of an omni-role fighter.
> Plus there was also an issue in further developing the naval version of aircrafts.France was in favor of this while the other nations were not.
> And thats why we will see F-35s flying from QE .
> 
> BTW i think EF nations are the losers in this fiasco..



Boss.. France opted out and one of the reason was Engine... France pushed for Snecma.. 

*
The ECA project collapsed in 1981 for several reasons including differing requirements, Dassault's insistence on "design leadership" and the British preference for a new version of the RB199 to power the aircraft versus the French preference for the new SNECMA M88.[11]*


Yes Requirements where different.. and France wanted to lead the design...

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## SpArK

Here is pdf document of all the information need to know about the Rafale.

http://www.dassault-aviation.com/fileadmin/user_upload/redacteur/AUTRES_DOCS/Fox_three/Fox_Three_nr_8.pdf


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## SpArK

kingdurgaking said:


> Boss.. France opted out and one of the reason was Engine... France pushed for Snecma..
> 
> *
> The ECA project collapsed in 1981 for several reasons including differing requirements, Dassault's insistence on "design leadership" and the British preference for a new version of the RB199 to power the aircraft versus the French preference for the new SNECMA M88.[11]*
> 
> 
> Yes Requirements where different.. and France wanted to lead the design...



And the RB199 never flew..but the Snecma did.


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## kingdurgaking

jha said:


> What EF has achieved..? Nothing ..Its damn too expensive to procure and even more to maintain and any hope of upgrades is NIL..
> What RAFALE has achieved -- Close to nothing because of their alleged High headed attitude..
> 
> Infact i am not in favor of a very expensive aircraft for MRCA..I would just like something which fits between LCA and MKI..We already are getting an expensive one in FGFA..



And i know what you are trying to push... We dont want the Crap around.. if you want you buy and keep it for your self  ... 

So what has EF and Rafale not achieved? .... we can list a page full of achievements...


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## kingdurgaking

BENNY said:


> And the RB199 never flew..but the Snecma did.



Because that is what they have as there base.. They dont have any other product to develope... Where as a new powerful modern engine came out.. called EJ.... and it has proven to better and more scalable unlike Snecma


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## SpArK

jha said:


> What EF has achieved..? Nothing ..Its damn too expensive to procure and even more to maintain and any hope of upgrades is NIL..
> What RAFALE has achieved -- Close to nothing because of their alleged High headed attitude..
> 
> Infact i am not in favor of a *very expensive* aircraft for MRCA..I would just like something which fits between LCA and MKI..We already are getting an expensive one in FGFA..



That leaves us with Gripen, F-16 and MIG-35.

No way...

Superbug or Rafale... should win.


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## SpArK

kingdurgaking said:


> Because that is what they have as there base.. They dont have any other product to develope... Where as a new powerful modern engine came out.. called EJ.... and it has proven to better and more scalable unlike Snecma



I remember reading in the forum that SNECMA's advantages are that it was built with easy maintainability and reduced operating costs.

I cant find the link though.


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## SpArK

http://www.angelfire.com/super2/fighterplanes/Rafale.html



> Mission-ready with low operating costs Dassault Aviation has placed special emphasis on flexible, low-cost logistic support. The Integrated Logistics Support concept chosen for Rafale is based on several factors:Easy operation with a built-in health monitoring system allowing ground crews to be instantly aware of the aircraft's condition.Extended testability of equipment and assemblies, using the Mermoz automatic tester. Flight line maintenance through equipment replacement or subassembly interchange, limited to those operations considered strictly necessary. Interoperability of ground support systems. The first aircraft have already demonstrated excellent reliability, and each maintenance evaluation confirms that specifications are met and even sometimes exceeded. Rafale, for instance, requires only seven hours of maintenance per flight hour Designed with the same philosophy as the rest of the aircraft, the M88 engines equipping Rafale offer an attractive performance/maintainability optimisation


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## kish

jha said:


> Look AESA is not that a big concern imo ( even though i know that some of the poster will disagree)...The cause according to me is that the future war will be 98% Net centric...We will have the Phalcons and the DRDO AWACs along with the numerous satellites and the huge balloons guiding our pilots..The only use of the Radar will be in close battle which i doubt IAF will want to do..
> Another example is SU-30 MKI which is one of the best Fighter available even though it lacks AESA..
> Plus we will always have the choice to integrate it when we have our own ready...


But there will be countermeasure of all technologies so there will always chances of close combate in any case of war having . So AESA Is imp . . . . Agreed with ur last line but how long we will take to develop our own


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## jha

BENNY said:


> That leaves us with Gripen, F-16 and MIG-35.
> 
> No way...
> 
> Superbug or Rafale... should win.



Just add GRIPEN and AMEN...


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## SpArK

jha said:


> Just add GRIPEN and AMEN...



I dont see much difference with LCA,.. now even with same engine too..


We will buy more Bofors from Sweden instead.


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## jha

kish said:


> But there will be countermeasure of all technologies so there will always chances of close combate in any case of war having . So AESA Is imp . . . . Agreed with ur last line but how long we will take to develop our own



What do you think is there in PHALCONs..They are AESA radars only with much higher power...
Although I could write more but sadly thats OT..


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## jha

BENNY said:


> I dont see much difference with LCA,.. now even with same engine too..
> 
> 
> We will buy more Bofors from Sweden instead.



Well RAFALE looks a better choice for long term..Its just chance of getting hands on Growlers that makes my mouth a little watery..


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## kingdurgaking

BENNY said:


> http://www.angelfire.com/super2/fighterplanes/Rafale.html



I am not able to find any such details for EJ .. but it is one of the most modern like FADEC and has a high growth potential.. For Snecma M88-3 is still a dream...


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## kingdurgaking

jha said:


> Just add GRIPEN and AMEN...



No Gripen it will kill Tejas


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## KS

BENNY said:


> Even Karthik was/became an expert..



Lol...

*@Kingdurgaking:*

Dude agreed that the EF is a better fighter but in which role - Air superiority only with the rafale coming close behind followed by the Gripen,Mig and the Hornet.

In terms of Air-ground (which by the way is the are in which IAF is more lacking now considering that the Jaguars are already old and the Floggers are on the verge of being retired) the EF is just a good one and definitely not the best.,with the Hornet taking the top honours and Rafale coming behind it in the second place.

Now what the IAF wants is a Medium-*Multirole*-fighter or atleast a Air-ground fighter which can also A2A missiles.

So most probably they will/should go for the Rafale (given IAF's love affair with the M2Ks and Rafale being a very good A2A and a A2G fighter.Not the best in any,but Very good in both) and the production lines of Rafale being idle thus being able to deliver us fighters on time.

Another advantage is the experience of Dassault in making carrier-borne fighters that can be utilised for our very own N-LCA.

Another good advantage of Rafale is that the Pakistan can kiss the JF-17 avionics good bye.

So it most probably is Rafale ,followed by SH(cant ignore Unkil's twisting arm tactics) and then EFT.

My personal choice - Rafale.

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## kingdurgaking

jha said:


> Well RAFALE looks a better choice for long term..Its just chance of getting hands on Growlers that makes my mouth a little watery..



Growlers are good.. But US will not be ready... It is not as easy to deal with US compared to others... If we buy a product... we will become liable for it.. we have to keep them and use them how they wanted... Secondly as for RAFALE what is the justification you have got for long term?? It is a dead snake with no or little orders left... Buying such a product will push the liabilities on our head.. A small change or upgrade Dassault will rip has into parts ... For a successful Product Mirage the upgrade costed a huge lump some ... think about Rafael which has just 200 odd orders... so far.. and nothing concrete..


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## KS

kingdurgaking said:


> Growlers are good.. But US will not be ready... It is not as easy to deal with US compared to others... If we buy a product... we will become liable for it.. we have to keep them and use them how they wanted... Secondly as for RAFALE what is the justification you have got for long term?? It is a dead snake with no or little orders left... Buying such a product will push the liabilities on our head.. A small change or upgrade Dassault will rip has into parts ... For a successful Product Mirage the upgrade costed a huge lump some ... think about Rafael which has just 200 odd orders... so far.. and nothing concrete..



Because of some future problems,you want us to buy a platform that is already plagued with problems and for whose role we already have a mighty machine in the form of MKI ?


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## SpArK

kingdurgaking said:


> Growlers are good.. But US will not be ready... It is not as easy to deal with US compared to others... If we buy a product... we will become liable for it.. we have to keep them and use them how they wanted... Secondly as for RAFALE what is the justification you have got for long term?? It is a dead snake with no or little orders left... Buying such a product will push the liabilities on our head.. A small change or upgrade Dassault will rip has into parts ... For a successful Product Mirage the upgrade costed a huge lump some ... think about Rafael which has just 200 odd orders... so far.. and nothing concrete..



Its indeed nice that if we can fly a fighter which suits us most and a fighter which is not used by many in future like EF and Superbug.

Since chances of a war are not that big, most probably IAF ( not forgetting France) will be the ones flying them on shows.when every tom dick and harry in Europe comes with EF.


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## kingdurgaking

Karthic Sri said:


> Lol...
> 
> *@Kingdurgaking:*
> 
> Dude agreed that the EF is a better fighter but in which role - Air superiority only with the rafale coming close behind followed by the Gripen,Mig and the Hornet.
> 
> In terms of Air-ground (which by the way is the are in which IAF is more lacking now considering that the Jaguars are already old and the Floggers are on the verge of being retired) the EF is just a good one and definitely not the best.,with the Hornet taking the top honours and Rafale coming behind it in the second place.
> 
> Now what the IAF wants is a Medium-*Multirole*-fighter or atleast a Air-ground fighter which can also A2A missiles.
> 
> So most probably they will/should go for the Rafale (given IAF's love affair with the M2Ks and Rafale being a very good A2A and a A2G fighter.Not the best in any,but Very good in both) and the production lines of Rafale being idle thus being able to deliver us fighters on time.
> 
> Another advantage is the experience of Dassault in making carrier-borne fighters that can be utilised for our very own N-LCA.
> 
> Another good advantage of Rafale is that the Pakistan can kiss the JF-17 avionics good bye.
> 
> So it most probably is Rafale ,followed by SH(cant ignore Unkil's twisting arm tactics) and then EFT.
> 
> My personal choice - Rafale.





You cant say Rafale will kiss good bye to Pakistan.. If Pakistan has got money it will sell the same to them... They have sold Mirages past and they will sell in future.. 

For Ground attack.... we can assume it has already got a capability equal to Rafael.. if IAF found this feature not available it would have kissed good bye while scrutinizing the features saying it did not fit there requirement...so far IAF has not rejected any Fighter so we can assume it has got the capability during the trials... 

*The Typhoon is a multi-role fighter with maturing air-to-ground capabilities. Earlier than scheduled, the RAF integrated the air to ground capability, based on the Rafael[138]/Ultra Electronics Litening III laser designator [139] and the Enhanced Paveway II/III laser guided bomb[140] under the "Austere" programme.[141] A more comprehensive air-to-ground attack capability including Paveway IV, EGBU-16 bombs and a higher degree of automation will be achieved for all partner nations with the Phase 1 Enhancements currently in development.[142]
The absence of such a capability is believed to have been a factor in the type's rejection from Singapore's fighter competition in 2005. At the time it was claimed that Singapore was concerned about the delivery timescale and the ability of the Eurofighter partner nations to fund the current capability packages.[143] With the planned Phase 2 Enhancements Eurofighter GmbH hopes to increase the appeal of Typhoon to possible export customers and to make the aircraft more useful to partner air forces.[142]*


If Production line of RAFAEL is empty it shows the success of there product.. what will you prefer if you are a business owner? a product which is successfully running across many companies/prospect customers.. or a product deployed in only one company and hoping for prospect customers?? I guess any owner will logically choose the former ... due to many reasons...


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## kingdurgaking

Karthic Sri said:


> Because of some future problems,you want us to buy a platform that is already plagued with problems and for whose role we already have a mighty machine in the form of MKI ?



Oke ... Let us take a pratical example.. You buy a car from me which is equal to that of a "night rider".. and i give on a condition dont ride this car on these roads.. and i will come and inspect every year .. you should not add your gizmo without my permission etc etc?? there is one more car like BMW intended to become like "night rider" which is having some problem but hopefully it will get resolved some day who knows may be not... now what you will choose.. If you choose first one.. I accept for you US gizmos are good.. I will prefer second one.. i want some thing that should be under my control.. because you have paid and purchased it... why the heck I will come and show my 
b u m b s to you.... we are just buyer and seller... you bought it for a reason and you will use it where and however you want.. who the heck am i decide ?


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## kingdurgaking

BENNY said:


> Its indeed nice that if we can fly a fighter which suits us most and a fighter which is not used by many in future like EF and Superbug.
> 
> Since chances of a war are not that big, most probably IAF ( not forgetting France) will be the ones flying them on shows.when every tom dick and harry in Europe comes with EF.



Bro you are wrong.. Lets take an example... we both are project managers for a product(same flavour different company)... I have got only 2 clients.. and you have got 10 clients... Now an upgrade has to be created to follow some government norms... so both of us have to deliver it.... since i have 2 clients... so i will end up charging them more for the upgrade or i will give a less capable upgrade to meet the cost... While you have sufficient clients to charge and you will give you a good quality upgrade for a good cost.. so who is the beneficiary here?? so where does India stand here?


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## FSLN

kingdurgaking said:


> Growlers are good.. But US will not be ready....


 You could bargain for some of the Super Hornets to be Growler wired from the factory....


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## sancho

kingdurgaking said:


> I am not able to find any such details for EJ .. but it is one of the most modern like FADEC and has a high growth potential.. For Snecma M88-3 is still a dream...





> History
> 
> Although the M88 engine cycle is similar to that of the Eurojet EJ200, it is smaller and lower in thrust. Other differences are that the M88 has fan variable camber inlet guide vanes, the HP compressor has a 6th stage and the exhaust nozzle is of the ejector type. *Like its contemporaries, it features state of the art technologies such as single-crystal high-pressure turbine blades, powder metallurgy discs and FADEC.*



http://www.scramble.nl/wiki/index.php?title=Snecma_M88


Btw, the M88-3 development started in 2000 and prototypes are ready and even made tests, but the French don't need it and that's why they didn't funded it. If we go for a Kaveri - Snecma development, it's core is likely to be used as the base.



kingdurgaking said:


> For Ground attack.... we can assume it has already got a capability equal to Rafael.. if IAF found this feature not available it would have kissed good bye while scrutinizing the features saying it did not fit there requirement...so far IAF has not rejected any Fighter so we can assume it has got the capability during the trials...



Not really, the EF still has only very limited A2G capabilities, lacks A2G missiles completelly, can carry the targeting pod only by reducing one fuel tank, which of course limits the range and the integration of further weapons is still running slow.
Rafale on the other hand offers PGMs, anti ship and cruise missiles and now is even nuclear capable with the ASMP missile (although I doubt we will get it). It offers more weapon stations, has more payload and range and an excellent EWS, which makes it the close 2nd to the Super Hornet, but the EF is by far not comparabel in this field!




kingdurgaking said:


> If Production line of RAFAEL is empty it shows the success of there product.. what will you prefer if you are a business owner? a product which is successfully running across many companies/prospect customers.. or a product deployed in only one company and hoping for prospect customers?? I guess any owner will logically choose the former ... due to many reasons...



What do you prefer? A fighter where the owners has not the money to fund integration of important weapons, techs and upgrades, as well are reducing their initial orders. Or do you prefer a fighter where the production line are runing slow, but orders are fully according plans and recently even increased + is still cheaper per unit!

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## kingdurgaking

FSLN said:


> You could bargain for some of the Super Hornets to be Growler wired from the factory....



We can just bargain bro.... dont know what will be the outcome.. US does not have such trustworthy relation with India..


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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> http://www.scramble.nl/wiki/index.php?title=Snecma_M88
> Btw, the M88-3 development started in 2000 and prototypes are ready and even made tests, but the French don't need it and that's why they didn't funded it. If we go for a Kaveri - Snecma development, it's core is likely to be used as the base.
> 
> Not really, the EF still has only very limited A2G capabilities, lacks A2G missiles completelly, can carry the targeting pod only by reducing one fuel tank, which of course limits the range and the integration of further weapons is still running slow.
> Rafale on the other hand offers PGMs, anti ship and cruise missiles and now is even nuclear capable with the ASMP missile (although I doubt we will get it). It offers more weapon stations, has more payload and range and an excellent EWS, which makes it the close 2nd to the Super Hornet, but the EF is by far not comparabel in this field!
> 
> What do you prefer? A fighter where the owners has not the money to fund integration of important weapons, techs and upgrades, as well are reducing their initial orders. Or do you prefer a fighter where the production line are runing slow, but orders are fully according plans and recently even increased + is still cheaper per unit!



If M88-3 prototype is ready which is supposed to have good trust.. and French doesnt need it shows that they wanted to transfer that liability to the buyers.. where as it is not the case EJ.. This liability will add directly to our assets because Rafael hasnt got prominent Orders then.. 
And i am sure M88-3 will not be part of the offer.. where they will demand more money for integration and testing as they knew India will demand so.. 

As i am saying EF hasnt got the required capability it will be rejected.. and for sure EF is not rejected which shows the confidence on what they posses... As for EW Typhoon was proposed with DASS which is also looks very competitive.. Can you compare the details of the both?... And EF has given impressive Ground attack capabilities in Wiki.. Not sure what was in the offer to MMRCA.. which will tell you how good EF or Rafael is... And for Sea capabilities there is a separate tender for Navy ... and Su will be there.. I dont think IAF has given any request for sea capbilities

And you have any news article which says owners are not having funds for integrating weapons??.. So you mean to say France has got huge funds for there fighter program for future upgrades .. when 4 countries are not having funds how come a single country do??

As a customer i will prefer a Fighter which should suite my requirement and should be a good product and the liability in the future upgrade should not fall on my head... so what will you choose? entire Liability on your head kya?... see things on business terms.. As i see Rafael has not got much future.. not even a single prominent export customer. so chance of it going to China is more which is more dangerous than PAF getting trained on EF... Where as EF is not so.. they have good customers and good orders in the pocket.. with so much countries Future upgrades will be equally shared.. and they have ban on China

See long term goal.. With EADS we get Civil aviation.. what do Rafael provides?? The consortium will setup a development center in India for future upgrade what about Rafael only ToT... and EU has got more political strategy compared with France alone... in every angel Typhoon looks good... And i want Rafael to win if not Typhoon... but not F18.. But as we see everything goes F18 way

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## luckyyy

SomeGuy said:


> How?
> Don't you guys already claim that MKI is best, after F-22.
> What capabilities does SH give IAF, that you don't already have with MKI?



probably mmrca aircrafts will be asign the role of air defence agenist the cruse misslies.....

during war time airforce need to delpoly around 50 of such aircrafts in air all the time to pick , track and target the incoming hostile missiles...

MKI drink lot of fuel , it's high on maintanence and didn't have the AESA radar, thesefore think the F-18 is the most suitable to fit in this role..


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## KS

*Flash News:*

In the tribute ad for the IAF on its 78 th anniversary broadcasted on CNN-IBN alond with the Bisons,MKIs,M2Ks a 2 second flypast of the EFT was there.

Is there any indications of the decisions to come.?

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## soaringphnx

kingdurgaking said:


> As i am saying EF hasnt got the required capability it will be rejected.. and for sure EF is not rejected which shows the confidence on what they posses...



So far, no aircraft has been disqualified or rejected from the competition.



kingdurgaking said:


> And EF has given impressive Ground attack capabilities in Wiki.. Not sure what was in the offer to MMRCA..



Wikipedia is a free encyclopedia which anyone can edit. For the same reason, wikipedia is not always the most reliable source of information about some topics (such as this).



kingdurgaking said:


> And for Sea capabilities there is a separate tender for Navy ... and Su will be there.. I dont think IAF has given any request for sea capbilities



True, the Indian Air Force did not ask for it specifically in the tender, but it cannot nevertheless be ruled out. The Navy's future aircraft carriers will need aircraft and there is a separate tender for it. But there are huge advantages in logistics, training, cost of induction and maintenance if the same aircraft is operated by both the air force and the navy and it will undoubtedly be considered in the competition. So here, the Eurofighter is at a disadvantage whereas the rafale and the Super Hornet are at an advantage.



kingdurgaking said:


> And you have any news article which says owners are not having funds for integrating weapons??..



Search the internet (or go through this thread) and you will find that there are tons of such articles. In fact BENNY had posted an article just a few days ago which stated that the Typhoon will only have a PESA radar.



kingdurgaking said:


> So you mean to say France has got huge funds for there fighter program for future upgrades .. when 4 countries are not having funds how come a single country do??





kingdurgaking said:


> As i see Rafael has not got much future.. not even a single prominent export customer.



France is undoubtedly having difficulties in funding the Rafale, but The French Air Force and Navy have already committed to the Rafale. In fact, the Rafale was developed with the aim to replace every single fighter aircraft in the inventory of the French Armed Forces (a fighter fit for any role). So there will surely be further development. France is looking to export the Rafale to help fund it's further development (and of course make some money).

On the other hand, the Eurofighter Typhoon was designed as an air superiority fighter. It was only later that ground attack capability was included (though it comes no where close to the Rafale). The severe limitations of the Typhoon in ground attack capability was already mentioned in sufficient detail by sancho in his post.

All 4 nations of the Eurofighter Consortium are members of the F-35 program as well and so all their resources and money is not directed towards the development of the Typhoon. These countries feel that it is better to go for the F-35 and are preparing to induct as much of it as they can. In fact, these countries are now reducing their initial orders and chances for further development are low.



kingdurgaking said:


> As a customer i will prefer a Fighter which should suite my requirement and should be a good product and the liability in the future upgrade should not fall on my head... so what will you choose? entire Liability on your head kya?... see things on business terms..



When looking from the "business" point of view, the Eurofighter does not look attractive at all. It doesn't suite all the requirements (poor ground attack, lack of AESA), it does not seem to have much of a future (member nations unwilling to fund further development, withdrawing their initial orders) amd is the least financially viable (most expensive) despite having the worst ground attack ability, no AESA, no naval version, no commonality with any fighters (current or planned) in the Indian inventory).

The Rafale on the other hand has the full support of the French navy and Air Force, so it definitely has a future. It suits all the requirements perfectly and is economically viable. It is the second most expensive, but we can save costs in induction & training (commonality with existing Mirages), maintenance & production costs (Kaveri engine option) and if it is chosen for our future aircraft carriers.



kingdurgaking said:


> so chance of it going to China is more which is more dangerous than PAF getting trained on EF... Where as EF is not so.. they have good customers and good orders in the pocket.. with so much countries Future upgrades will be equally shared.. and they have ban on China



The Chinese have Su-30MKMs which aren't too different from our Su-30MKIs, but that didn't stop us from acquiring them. the Russians are always trying to sell military equipment to China, yet Russia has been for all these years our foremost arms supplier.



kingdurgaking said:


> See long term goal.. With EADS we get Civil aviation.. what do Rafael provides?? The consortium will setup a development center in India for future upgrade what about Rafael only ToT...



India will not be an equal member in the consortium. Even the French have stated they intend to go beyond a buyer-seller relationship with India, though they have not indicated how.



kingdurgaking said:


> in every angel Typhoon looks good...



mention 1 angle.

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## soaringphnx




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## kingdurgaking

soaringphnx said:


> True, the Indian Air Force did not ask for it specifically in the tender, but it cannot nevertheless be ruled out. The Navy's future aircraft carriers will need aircraft and there is a separate tender for it. But there are huge advantages in logistics, training, cost of induction and maintenance if the same aircraft is operated by both the air force and the navy and it will undoubtedly be considered in the competition. So here, the Eurofighter is at a disadvantage whereas the rafale and the Super Hornet are at an advantage.



IAF and Navy are having different budget and different requirement.. You cant have the same version of IAF to navy ... there will be different systems.. We already have different systems in place .. and it is not logical for that.. Even USAF or Russia do have different systems.. Your view on this cant be justified on the commonality.. So Rafale though serves both it is of Poor built and no nation is hardly interested in it.. That is the fact... Where as EF was successful and was able to sell to there clients.. 




> Search the internet (or go through this thread) and you will find that there are tons of such articles. In fact BENNY had posted an article just a few days ago which stated that the Typhoon will only have a PESA radar.



If You are BENNY can post the response of EADS to the RFI which states Typhoon will give only PESA to the IAF as i am not sure how to search . If Response to RFI states only PESA we will kiss good bye the to EF.... and will welcome Rafael... And FYI EF already flown with AESA and they are working on enhancements..



> France is undoubtedly having difficulties in funding the Rafale, but The French Air Force and Navy have already committed to the Rafale. In fact, the Rafale was developed with the aim to replace every single fighter aircraft in the inventory of the French Armed Forces (a fighter fit for any role). So there will surely be further development. France is looking to export the Rafale to help fund it's further development (and of course make some money).
> 
> On the other hand, the Eurofighter Typhoon was designed as an air superiority fighter. It was only later that ground attack capability was included (though it comes no where close to the Rafale). The severe limitations of the Typhoon in ground attack capability was already mentioned in sufficient detail by sancho in his post.



France itself is having huge difficulty for sure ... It is desperate to sell its Bird to some one to save its industry.. So far it was not successful.. It is a big flaw on there part now that they cant support any further enhancement and are look for India and they have decided to *lift ban on China* which is a bad move and Rafael will sell the technology to them though not the Fighter altogether  ... which is not the case with EF they can see light at the end of there tunnel and you can see the prospect customers and EU will never sell anything to China as of now... agreed EF has started with Air superiority but soon EU understood when dealing with Singapore where it lost to F18 from where they understood that A2G is important and they have modified it.. Infact in T3 of EF will have the best features and As far as my knowledge is concerned T3(Tranche3) is offered in MMRCA




> All 4 nations of the Eurofighter Consortium are members of the F-35 program as well and so all their resources and money is not directed towards the development of the Typhoon. These countries feel that it is better to go for the F-35 and are preparing to induct as much of it as they can. In fact, these countries are now reducing their initial orders and chances for further development are low.



F-35 was there in Plan and EF is supposed to be there backbone and they wont drop EF at any cost... do you have any link stating that they will drop EF and scrap EF altogether and will go to F35 for good?? 



> When looking from the "business" point of view, the Eurofighter does not look attractive at all. It doesn't suite all the requirements (poor ground attack, lack of AESA), it does not seem to have much of a future (member nations unwilling to fund further development, withdrawing their initial orders) amd is the least financially viable (most expensive) despite having the worst ground attack ability, no AESA, no naval version, no commonality with any fighters (current or planned) in the Indian inventory).



As i said EADS is a more attractive option in all angels.. We can get hands on civil aviation which is very important... and secondly they have decided to make india as partners.. though it wont be active but a small amount of R&D will surely land in India .. I can provide link on this and it was a hot topic from EADS bid.. can you gurantee that Rafale will give such option.. All they want is money and no work will be transferred ... because of which UAE is about to kiss good bye for them... you can look into the poor state of Rafael.. 



> The Rafale on the other hand has the full support of the French navy and Air Force, so it definitely has a future. It suits all the requirements perfectly and is economically viable. It is the second most expensive, but we can save costs in induction & training (commonality with existing Mirages), maintenance & production costs (Kaveri engine option) and if it is chosen for our future aircraft carriers.



So is the case with EU they have there full support and there is a confirmed order of 500+ and some of the customers are in the edge of shortlisting.. so any such prospect for Rafael.. We are already having Jaguars which is a commonality from EU... 




> The Chinese have Su-30MKMs which aren't too different from our Su-30MKIs, but that didn't stop us from acquiring them. the Russians are always trying to sell military equipment to China, yet Russia has been for all these years our foremost arms supplier.



Buddy get your facts corrected on SU MKI.. MKI is the most advanced fighters of its class.. and Chinese have MKK not MKM... Russia has now understood what to trade and what not to with China for avoiding further embarrassment.. but France is not so.. we can see its eager in selling things to China while other EU are Vehemently opposed.. it is better not to give anything than give something to our adversaries.. 



> India will not be an equal member in the consortium. Even the French have stated they intend to go beyond a buyer-seller relationship with India, though they have not indicated how.


Yes India will not be equal.. but India will be asked to give some contribution.. so something is better than nothing.. We are going as buyer seller but EADS has decided to take as 5th partner.. 


In addition to this i am reiterating a simple logic on buying a product and looking at long term perspective like upgrades maintenance etc..

we both are project managers for a product(same flavour different company)... I have got only 2 clients.. and you have got 10 clients... Now an upgrade has to be created to follow some government norms... so both of us have to deliver it.... since i have 2 clients... so i will end up charging them more for the upgrade or i will give a less capable upgrade to meet the cost... While you have sufficient clients to charge and you will give you a good quality upgrade for a good cost.. so who is the beneficiary here?? so where does India stand here?

This is my main concern on Rafael when we compare it with EF... as a whole i am not Rafael hatter... 
Feel free to comment on my views...

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## FSLN

kingdurgaking said:


> MKI is the most advanced fighters of its class.. :



thats debatable...


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## kingdurgaking

FSLN said:


> thats debatable...



hmmm yes debatable for you.... and no for us... we are convinced it is the best of SU-30 and equal or little less to SU-35


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## redpearl75

FSLN said:


> thats debatable...



You can say that but can't prove, as Sukhoi and Russian authorities itself clami MKI to be the best Su30 around the globe... Americans claimed MKI to be the second best jet to their Raptors and then under developement F35 in 2004 after the joint exercise... MKI has come a long way in terms of technology upgradation and airframe development.... It shares the same engine, same airframe - canards, same technology... The only thing that's better in the Su 35 is it's radar which again in going to get incorporated in all the MKIs in IAF's inventory.... Su 35 is a variant of MKI and it's a lot similar to the MKI... Su 35 is a different class of fighter as it has only one pilot seating whereas MKI has 2 to enhance it's capabilities.... IAF doesn't keep MKI for intercepting role, rather Fulcrums have always been in that catagory, MKI is kept for Deep penetration, Heavy strike, and be a second line interceptor... For the time being you can say that IAF has in mind to use MKIs as an interceptor but not for long as Fulcrums are getting upgraded to the SMT standards with new radars, avionics, engines and cockpit instrumentation.... I won't say that MKI is better than Su 35 but would rather say that both are of different classes and have different roles to play, the only thing I would like to comment here is thet there is nothing that Su 35 can do and MKI can't and same goes the opposite way.... It's the motive not the capacity of these jets that differentiates them......


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## rockstarIN

jha said:


> Just add GRIPEN and AMEN...



Can't we make LCA to Gripen standard? since both r using the same engine, of course it will take time but


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## Big Bang

rockstar said:


> Can't we make LCA to Gripen standard? since both r using the same engine, of course it will take time but



LCA Mk2 version has been focused Upon to better the Aircraft To the standards as that of Grippen


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## redpearl75




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## jha

rockstar said:


> Can't we make LCA to Gripen standard? since both r using the same engine, of course it will take time but



I have no doubt that LCA can and will reach the current potential of GRIPEN, but do we have so much time in our hand to let DRDO develop the technologies...It may take them 10-20 years and by then it will already be obsolete...


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## redpearl75

FSLN said:


> thats debatable...



India Eyes Su-30 AESA Upgrade

India is looking at fitting its Sukhoi Su-30MKI fighters with Russian Phazotron Zhuk-AE active, electronically scanned array (AESA) radars.

The X-band radar can track 30 aerial targets in the track-while-scan mode and engage six targets simultaneously in attack mode. By 2018, the Indian air force inventory is expected to comprise around 300 Su-30MKIs.

Indias Sukhois currently use N011M passive array technology, which delivers less peak power than an AESA. The N011M also has limitations in its back-end processing and requires more maintenance. 

Defense Minister A.K. Antony recently told the Indian parliament about a proposal to upgrade the Indian air forces Su-30 fleet. The upgrade is be carried out by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. and Russias Irkutsk, the original equipment manufacturer, starting in 2012. It is likely that the order for the AESA also will be made simultaneously, as the radar will have to be integrated into most parts of the aircraft, including the navigation systems and engines.

The Su-30 entered service in India in 2000  the purchase was approved in 1997  and the aircraft have not been upgraded since.

AESA technology offers improved performance and reliability compared with traditional mechanically scanned array radars. India also has made it clear that having an AESA will be critical in the competition for 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA). For instance, the F-16IN is being proposed with the Northrop Grumman APG-80, while the F/A-18E/F is being bid with the Raytheon APG-78. All the other contenders have offered an AESA road map,

During the April trials for the MiG-35, the Zhuk AE test radar had a slightly smaller array than the production version would feature. The MiG-35 also is a contender in the MMRCA competition.

India would also expect to field an AESA on the fifth-generation fighter  the co-development and production effort with Russia built around the Sukhoi T-50.


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## soaringphnx

kingdurgaking said:


> IAF and Navy are having different budget and different requirement.. You cant have the same version of IAF to navy ... there will be different systems.. We already have different systems in place .. and it is not logical for that.. Even USAF or Russia do have different systems.. Your view on this cant be justified on the commonality..



I agree that the Air Force and the navy will have different requirements. So definitely, the aircraft cannot be the same "version" for both the forces. In fact, aircraft for the navy need to be sturdier to handle the stresses of carrier operations and should be able to handle the corrosive sea conditions. But that doesn't mean the aircraft need to be completely different. There are huge advantages in using the same aircraft (but different versions) in both the navy and the air force. It helps us to cut costs in production, induction, training and maintenance. That's why most countries try to develop a naval variant for an aircraft that is operated by the air force instead of going for an entirely different aircraft altogether (of course, they also do this for the added benefit of saving money on developing an entirely different aircraft). 

* The U.S. are currently developing the F-35 which is to have three versions - a CTOL version for the USAF, a naval version for the US Navy, and a STOVL version for the Marines. 

* The Russians have Su-27s, Su-30s, Su-34s and Su-35s for the air force while the navy uses Su-33s - all are based on the same basic airframe.

* The Chinese have the J-11 (a copy of the Russian Flankers) for the PLAAF and are developing the J-11BH / J-15 for their navy.

* The French have developed the Rafale as a multi-role aircraft used by both their navy and airforce.

* Even in India, we are working on a naval version of the Tejas. Moreover, we went for the MiG-29Ks (MiG-29 in IAF inventory).



kingdurgaking said:


> So Rafale though serves both it is of *Poor built*



Please elaborate on the *bolded* part.



kingdurgaking said:


> no nation is hardly interested in it..



You're wrong...

The Rafale was a forerunner in the Brazilian competition and infact Lula mentioned the Rafale was his choice. Recent reports that the Brazilian air force is preferring the cheaper Gripen may be to get a better deal from the French. Brazil had indicated that ToT was of prime importance to them and the Rafle could give them just what they want.

UAE was very interested in the Rafale, but were unhappy over the price of some upgrades they wanted. Their interest in the Super Hornet is likely a way to get a better deal.

The IAF were very impressed by the Mirages performance in Kargil and wanted to buy additional Mirages, but then the French said they were closing the Mirage assembly line. That's why the MRCA competition was announced in the first place.



kingdurgaking said:


> France itself is having huge difficulty for sure ... It is desperate to sell its Bird to some one to save its industry.. So far it was not successful.. It is a big flaw on there part now that they cant support any further enhancement and are look for India and they have decided to *lift ban on China* which is a bad move and Rafael will sell the technology to them though not the Fighter altogether



This has already been answered in my previous post. Moreover, if the Rafale bags some orders from Brazil, UAE or India, France won't be driven to such drastic measures because they know how adept the Chinese are at reverse engineering. Anyway, I doubt France will offer their key technologies (like SPECTRA) to China.

P.S. As I am a busy at the moment, I will continue this discussion later.....


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## december

can u give me the details of the upgrade going on for diffrent fighter in indian air force.
How much can these upgrades extent their life and what is the cost involved.

can the MRCA and LCA MK2 completly replace these upgrades by 2020 or before?


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## sancho

kingdurgaking said:


> If M88-3 prototype is ready which is supposed to have good trust.. and French doesnt need it shows that they wanted to transfer that liability to the buyers.. where as it is not the case EJ.. This liability will add directly to our assets because Rafael hasnt got prominent Orders then..
> And i am sure M88-3 will not be part of the offer.. where they will demand more money for integration and testing as they knew India will demand so..



All it says is, that the Rafale already has a good T/W ratio and the French are only planing to add higher thrust in later upgrades. At the moment they are looking at more durability and reduced maintenance cost with the M88-2 E4, which will be the standard engine of the Rafale F3+, but they offered us the integration of Kaveri-Snecma if we want (the biggest advantage of Rafale, which no other contender can offer!).
Btw, TVC was offered for LCA with EJ engine and most likely with the EF too, but that also has to be funded by us if we want it. Higher thrust GE 414 for LCA, or for F18SH must also be funded by us, so this is definitelly nor French specific, nor has it anything to do with Rafale orders.



kingdurgaking said:


> As i am saying EF hasnt got the required capability it will be rejected.. and for sure EF is not rejected which shows the confidence on what they posses... As for EW Typhoon was proposed with DASS which is also looks very competitive.. Can you compare the details of the both?... And EF has given impressive Ground attack capabilities in Wiki.. Not sure what was in the offer to MMRCA.. which will tell you how good EF or Rafael is... And for Sea capabilities there is a separate tender for Navy ... and Su will be there.. I dont think IAF has given any request for sea capbilities



Look, first comes the RFI where all vendors responded with their informations on their fighters... and IAF found out, that based on these infos all 6 fits the requirement and they could enter the field trials. But now field trials are over, IAF now can way better judge what was PR in the vendor infos and what is reality. So if they now found out that A2G capabilities are not good enough, that radars will not be delivered in time, or proposed costs are not correctly calculated by the vendors..., now is the time to shortlist/reject them.
I had a discussion about the EW with Lt. Prateek in this thread before, you should search for it, but the currtent EF EWS is not as good as the SPECTRA EWS.
The infos given at wiki, or even Aero India about EFs ground attack capabilities are, about what is possible if every weapon would be integrated, but it does not show what the reality is right now. So far it has not even a single A2G missile (no anti radiation, no anti ship, not anti tank and most important, no cruise missile integrated), which makes it to the least capable in this field! 



kingdurgaking said:


> And you have any news article which says owners are not having funds for integrating weapons??.. So you mean to say France has got huge funds for there fighter program for future upgrades .. when 4 countries are not having funds how come a single country do??



Discussed here often before, finacial crisis caused budget cuts in all partner countries, UK and ITA don't need further A2G capabilities because they will get F35, ITA don't even wanted AESA radar, swashplate AESA radar development just started, because partners couldn't agree on development and funds...
French is going through the same crisis of course and have to cut things too, but they funded the integration of most of the weapons before and don't seems to make cuts on Rafale, because it is meant to replace all older French fighters. 1 country has it easier to look at their budget and decide what to fund and when, compared to 4 countries that has to look at 4 different budgets. 



kingdurgaking said:


> As i see Rafael has not got much future.. not even a single prominent export customer. so chance of it going to China is more which is more dangerous than PAF getting trained on EF... Where as EF is not so.. they have good customers and good orders in the pocket.. with so much countries Future upgrades will be equally shared.. and they have ban on China



That is plain wrong! All EU countries has restrictions on selling arms to China, it was even reported that France had concerns to sell weapons and techs to Pakistan, because they are afraid of techs could be transfered to China.
Also, Rafale has good chances in UAE, Brazil and Swiss, Lybia and Kuwait shows interest too. EF on the other hand, has just lost again a contract in Rumania against F16s and has only the Swiss competition running besides MMRCA.
Btw, EF has around 500 orders (only 2 export customers and both bought for political reasons), Rafale only 180 so far. EF uses mainly cheaper US weapons, while Rafale uses more expensive French/EU weapons. But why is Rafale still offered for lower costs than the EF?



kingdurgaking said:


> See long term goal.. With EADS we get Civil aviation.. what do Rafael provides?? The consortium will setup a development center in India for future upgrade what about Rafael only ToT... and EU has got more political strategy compared with France alone... in every angel Typhoon looks good... And i want Rafael to win if not Typhoon... but not F18.. But as we see everything goes F18 way



This again is wrong! EADS has never offered a partnership in civil aviation and even if, it would be offered by the French too, because it is half owned by them.
All that is on offer is a EF partnership as a minor partner and mainly outsourcing of avionics and if we had gone for EJ 200 engines, also some of the engine parts for all EFs. I don't deny that this still is a big offer and from the industrial point of view possibly the best, but it does not equalise the clear disadvantages of the fighter itself and that are base requirements, that has to be fulfilled first!
The French on the other hand doesn't offer bad things too, Kaveri-Sncema co-delopment and integration into Rafale, French MBDA already fixed Maitri SAM co-development and offers further partnerships in the weapons field and Dassault has stated to go beyond a buyer seller partnership, although we don't know what that means so far.
The French obviously offers the most co-developments, partnerships and JV and are an independent an sanction proof country, which alone is good for us, but lets hope they will offer a partnership too.

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## sancho

redpearl75 said:


> You can say that but can't prove, as Sukhoi and Russian authorities itself clami MKI to be the best Su30 around the globe... Americans claimed MKI to be the second best jet to their Raptors and then under developement F35 in 2004 after the joint exercise... MKI has come a long way in terms of technology upgradation and airframe development.... It shares the same engine, same airframe - canards, same technology... The only thing that's better in the Su 35 is it's radar which again in going to get incorporated in all the MKIs in IAF's inventory.... Su 35 is a variant of MKI and it's a lot similar to the MKI... Su 35 is a different class of fighter as it has only one pilot seating whereas MKI has 2 to enhance it's capabilities.... IAF doesn't keep MKI for intercepting role, rather Fulcrums have always been in that catagory, MKI is kept for Deep penetration, Heavy strike, and be a second line interceptor... For the time being you can say that IAF has in mind to use MKIs as an interceptor but not for long as Fulcrums are getting upgraded to the SMT standards with new radars, avionics, engines and cockpit instrumentation.... I won't say that MKI is better than Su 35 but would rather say that both are of different classes and have different roles to play, the only thing I would like to comment here is thet there is nothing that Su 35 can do and MKI can't and same goes the opposite way.... It's the motive not the capacity of these jets that differentiates them......



Several points, although it does not belong into this thread. Su 35 are not varients of MKIs and have several differences mainly for the A2A role, where it has clear advantages compared to MKI, so when you generally compare all Flanker types it is clearly the most advanced Flanker. However, the MKI can generally do anything the Su 35 does, but it is more focused onl multi role capabilities and less specialised on A2A.

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## kish

sancho said:


> So far it has *not even a single A2G missile (no anti radiation, no anti ship, not anti tank and most important, no cruise missile integrated)*, which makes it to the least capable in this field!



I looked at wiki again , it mention that it lake in A2G capabilities and maturing in that,,, but if till now there nothing ( " not even a single" as u say ) then it must go out,, i love both EF and Rafale 
can u give any source which show " not even a single" .... 

by the way ,, ur posts are informative always .. THANKS
my vote to Rafale ,,

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## FSLN

redpearl75 said:


> India would also expect to field an AESA on the fifth-generation fighter.



a AESA its a must on a 5th gen no doubt...not so much for a 4.5 gen...


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## FSLN

Northrop N-300(grand daddy of India´s Next MMRCA, 1955 pic)






just so you guys know more about your future MMRCA that will serve you for the next 35+ years...


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## redpearl75

FSLN said:


> a AESA its a must on a 5th gen no doubt...not so much for a 4.5 gen...



Well said, but if the technology is available here to be implimented on the existing 4.5 gen jets then why not as it increases the effectibility and performance by a great extent.. And that is why all across the globe whoever can, is trying to get an AESA radar fit on their jets... Take for example thei MRCA competition... None of the fighters are of 5th Generation but still are offering AESA on their jets... US on their F/A 18 SH & F 16s, Russia on Mig 35, EU on their EFT, Sweden on their Gripen and, france on their Rafale.... It's a simple thing.. It's just that everybody needs the best out of all they have....


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## redpearl75

EFT Cockpit..


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## redpearl75

*Super Hornet Front Cockpit: *











*Super Hornet Rear cockpit.*


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## SpArK



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## redpearl75

Gripen Cockpit Detailed.

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## redpearl75

*Mig 35 Front*






---------- Post added at 05:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:51 PM ----------

*Mig 35 Rear*






---------- Post added at 05:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:52 PM ----------







---------- Post added at 05:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:53 PM ----------

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## redpearl75

Why can't IAF opt for upgrading it's Mig 29s to the 35 standards as they are anyway paying a lot for the SMT standard upgrade... Does it sound stupid...?


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## SpArK

redpearl75 said:


> Why can't IAF opt for upgrading it's Mig 29s to the 35 standards as they are anyway paying a lot for the SMT standard upgrade... Does it sound stupid...?



*We will for sure after the MRCA drama gets over!!!*


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## redpearl75

BENNY said:


> *We will for sure after the MRCA drama gets over!!!*



I don't think the IAF would be willing to pay then after the SMT upgrade as they are planning to replace the Fulcrums with the MCA in the pipeline but going for a 35 standard sounds more logical....


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## mjnaushad

I asked this question before but no one answered.....

Is there any supposed date at which this competition will end.....Any time frame....


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## anathema

mjnaushad said:


> I asked this question before but no one answered.....
> 
> Is there any supposed date at which this competition will end.....Any time frame....



July 2011 - is the date that IAF chief has put forward -- winner will be declared by then.


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## rsingh

BENNY said:


>



I doubt a Cross b\w Eva green , Liv Tyler, Bellucci would't as breathtaking.


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## sancho

kish said:


> I looked at wiki again , it mention that it lake in A2G capabilities and maturing in that,,, but if till now there nothing ( " not even a single" as u say ) then it must go out,, i love both EF and Rafale
> can u give any source which show " not even a single" ....
> 
> by the way ,, ur posts are informative always .. THANKS
> my vote to Rafale ,,



You mean the part that they lost in Singapore because of very limited A2G capabilities and that they are improving them now right? And it is even true that they are improving, but the problem is, the integration and maturing of the EF is very slow. At the moment they are testing and integrating Paveway IV bombs and most likely will keep the Litening targeting pod (which the UK integrated alone so far, because they funded it) as you can see on the following pics:











A2G missile were only planed in later upgrade stages, because they are not needed now. All partners replaced A2A fighters with the early EFs and UK, ITA and GER still have the Tornado for the A2G role (ESP has F18s) and these are in service in Afghanistan now. That means for the partners it is no major problem now that EF lacks in A2G capabilities now, but for possible export countries like us, or in that time Singapore, it is a major disadvantage. 
So to sell the EF, they have to speed up the upgrades and integration, which means their initial plans are getting confused and they have to redirect the funds for upgrades that where planed now, to upgrades that were planed later. They normally had planed the T2 till 2013, which would have inclouded some A2G missiles (Brimstone and cruise missiles), but without AESA radar they simply are not competitive on the market anymore. That is why they agreed on fielding Tranche 3 earlier and start AESA development now, to be ready in 2015. But as I said, everything goes very slow with so many partners, they still did not decided about what T3 will include. On the weapon side METEOR missile is clear, but A2G weapons? On the Techs side AESA is clear, but anything else are only rumors. There is talk about more thrust, or TVC, but the partners seems to look for an export customer to funds it. UK seems to want CFTs to increase the range and maybe upgrade of the EWS, but so far nobody knows who pays for this and when it will be ready. 

That's why I said, on paper/wiki and somewhere in future when it is fully developed, the EF looks good and could be a good multi role fighter, but in that time India will have more capable MKIs, 5. gen Pak Fa / FGFA and so on. There is simply no need for us to pay so much and wait so long, if we have so many alternatives.

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## sancho

redpearl75 said:


> Why can't IAF opt for upgrading it's Mig 29s to the 35 standards as they are anyway paying a lot for the SMT standard upgrade... Does it sound stupid...?



SMT upgrade should be done till 2013, Mig stated that Mig 35 will only be ready from 2013 onwards. Also there are several structural changes on the airframes which makes it not possible to upgrade the older Mig 29s with these techs. AESA radar for example requirers a bigger nose and as far as I know the RD 33 MK engine doesn't fit that easy too.
INs Mig 29s instead should be upgraded later, because they are based on the same new aiframe.

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## SpArK

sancho said:


> SMT upgrade should be done till 2013, Mig stated that Mig 35 will only be ready from 2013 onwards. Also there are several structural changes on the airframes which makes it not possible to upgrade the older Mig 29s with these techs. AESA radar for example requirers a bigger nose and as far as I know the RD 33 MK engine doesn't fit that easy too.
> INs Mig 29s instead should be upgraded later, because they are based on the same new aiframe.



That actually helped to clear my doubt too.. I thought by the time MRCA drama is over and we would have straight head to MiG-35 standards..

Anyway lets hope IAF pulls something like that by the time IAC is ready.


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## kish

sancho said:


> SMT upgrade should be done till 2013, Mig stated that Mig 35 will only be ready from 2013 onwards. Also there are several structural changes on the airframes which makes it not possible to upgrade the older Mig 29s with these techs. AESA radar for example *requirers a bigger nose* and as far as I know the RD 33 MK engine doesn't fit that easy too.
> INs Mig 29s instead should be upgraded later, because they are based on the same new aiframe.




I dont think so . AESA radar can have 1000 +- transmit-receive module and there no can be increase or decrease according to need.

so nose size doesn't too much matters.


but AESA need more power then other because every module has its processer and it generate more heat and more energy require to cool and operate it. so about engine you are right and i think it's main problem with mki so that can not use su 35 radar
and same for iaf mig 29
correct me if wrong


one question ,,,,,, is there thread dedicated to radar only


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## sancho

BENNY said:


> That actually helped to clear my doubt too.. I thought by the time MRCA drama is over and we would have straight head to MiG-35 standards..
> 
> Anyway lets hope IAF pulls something like that by the time IAC is ready.



Hi Benny, actually I was pretty surprised about INs move to Mig 29K, but they had no real option of course, because it was a combined deal. But what still bothers me the most is, that even the additional order for IAC1 seems not to have further upgraded capabilities.
I mean it seems that they ordered the same Mig 29K/KUBs without Zhuk AE and TVC only, so we have to wait till the next upgrade (in 10 years possibly) to see Mig 35 capabilities on them.
Imo IN should have made a smaller order at the begining of 10 - 12 Mig 29 KUB with the actual config, for training and strike role. But the rest of the 45 fighters should have been already upgraded with AESA and TVC, because especially in the air defense role of the Ks, these capabilities would be very helpful.




kish said:


> I dont think so . AESA radar can have 1000 +- transmit-receive module and there no can be increase or decrease according to need.
> 
> so nose size doesn't too much matters.



It does, because it says how many T/R modules the radar can use and the more T/R modules the more range!
The early Zhuk AE had a diameter of 575mm and something around 750 T/R modules, but the Russians soon understands that this is not comparable with the performance of the western radars in MMRCA, that all will have 1000, or clearly more. That's why they now offers a bigger (some sources say 700mm) diameter and around 1000 modules, with the result that they now promise a radar range around 200Km. As you can see here, the early version provided only 130Km:

http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/4484/zhukaemj2.jpg




kish said:


> but AESA need more power then other because every module has its processer and it generate more heat and more energy require to cool and operate it. so about engine you are right and i think it's main problem with mki so that can not use su 35 radar
> and same for iaf mig 29
> correct me if wrong
> 
> 
> one question ,,,,,, is there thread dedicated to radar only



There is a lot of confusion about the AESA radar and more engine power issue, the fact is Su 35 has not even an AESA radar, but only an improved PESA radar which is even based on the Bars and even if MKI would need a more powerful engine, the Russians already could offer us the S117, that is used in Su 35 and T 50 at the moment.

Irbis-E - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Not that I know.

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## redpearl75

*Meteor Integration To Improve Gripen Export Value*

HELSINKI - Sweden's strategy to add export value to the JAS 39 Gripen-NG continues, following the signing of a production contract with Britain's Ministry of Defense covering the integration of the active radar-guided Beyond Visual Range Meteor missile into the Swedish combat aircraft.

The integration process, which will run over four years, carries an estimated cost of $43 million. The Swedish Air Force's fleet of Gripen C/D fighters will be equipped with a two-way data link, allowing communication between the aircraft and the missile once it has been fired.

Additionally, the Meteor will be tested with the Gripen's radar, avionics systems and displays. The order includes test flights and test firing, as well as the integration of Meteor with support and maintenance systems, including simulators and planning computers.

This latest investment in Gripen will improve its ability to operate against air targets at long range.

Britain has used the Gripen as a test aircraft for the development of the Meteor since 2006, with multiple missiles having been fired from the Swedish aircraft.

Britain is the lead nation in the European Meteor missile development system project, which started in 2002. Germany, France, Italy, Spain and Sweden are the other major partners. Britain and Spain have already signed production orders on Meteor.

FMV, Sweden's defense materials procurement agency, signed a contract with Saab Aerosystems in September covering integration of the Meteor missile on the JAS 39 Gripen C/D version 20. The Meteor missile system is expected to be operational within the Swedish Air Force in 2015.

Meteor Integration To Improve Gripen Export Value - Defense News

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## luckyyy

AESA radar has many T/R modules which can be switch off/on to prevent overheating....

therefore it's helpfull to prevent damage to radar when the aircraft has to remain in air for long hours...

what are the other advantages of AESA radar has over PESA radar ..?


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## kish

very good collection of pic of indian armed forces, very intresting if u yet dont know about this

Indian Armed Forces


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## kingdurgaking

soaringphnx said:


> I agree that the Air Force and the navy will have different requirements. So definitely, the aircraft cannot be the same "version" for both the forces. In fact, aircraft for the navy need to be sturdier to handle the stresses of carrier operations and should be able to handle the corrosive sea conditions. But that doesn't mean the aircraft need to be completely different. There are huge advantages in using the same aircraft (but different versions) in both the navy and the air force. It helps us to cut costs in production, induction, training and maintenance. That's why most countries try to develop a naval variant for an aircraft that is operated by the air force instead of going for an entirely different aircraft altogether (of course, they also do this for the added benefit of saving money on developing an entirely different aircraft).
> 
> * The U.S. are currently developing the F-35 which is to have three versions - a CTOL version for the USAF, a naval version for the US Navy, and a STOVL version for the Marines.
> 
> * The Russians have Su-27s, Su-30s, Su-34s and Su-35s for the air force while the navy uses Su-33s - all are based on the same basic airframe.
> 
> * The Chinese have the J-11 (a copy of the Russian Flankers) for the PLAAF and are developing the J-11BH / J-15 for their navy.
> 
> * The French have developed the Rafale as a multi-role aircraft used by both their navy and airforce.
> 
> * Even in India, we are working on a naval version of the Tejas. Moreover, we went for the MiG-29Ks (MiG-29 in IAF inventory).
> 
> Please elaborate on the *bolded* part.
> 
> You're wrong...
> 
> The Rafale was a forerunner in the Brazilian competition and infact Lula mentioned the Rafale was his choice. Recent reports that the Brazilian air force is preferring the cheaper Gripen may be to get a better deal from the French. Brazil had indicated that ToT was of prime importance to them and the Rafle could give them just what they want.
> 
> UAE was very interested in the Rafale, but were unhappy over the price of some upgrades they wanted. Their interest in the Super Hornet is likely a way to get a better deal.
> 
> The IAF were very impressed by the Mirages performance in Kargil and wanted to buy additional Mirages, but then the French said they were closing the Mirage assembly line. That's why the MRCA competition was announced in the first place.
> 
> 
> 
> This has already been answered in my previous post. Moreover, if the Rafale bags some orders from Brazil, UAE or India, France won't be driven to such drastic measures because they know how adept the Chinese are at reverse engineering. Anyway, I doubt France will offer their key technologies (like SPECTRA) to China.
> 
> P.S. As I am a busy at the moment, I will continue this discussion later.....




Buddy .. For AirForce and Navy though the airframe looks same but there are lot of difference in the system as such.. Even though Rafael navy looks similar in appearance it is altogether a different aircraft.. just like our Tejas and Trainer... Just for airframe and few subsytem it wont bring down the cost for sure.. Sea fighters are optimized on different caliber and it wont be equal to Airforce.... You Please dont bring Navy in to the discussion as it is MMRCA for IAF and IAF doesnt care for Navy's requirement  ... even Navy RFI is not full... chance for F35 entering is more there.. 

Further on deal wining part.. Rafael is really pathetic .. if it is a very good aircraft.. deal worth for money then.... my simple question to you is why it is not successful in selling like typhoons.. Brazil has just told it is a fore runner and not the winner..

Any my simple question is if Rafael is damn good.. then when IAF considered Mirage why not it choosen Rafael directly instead it went for a MMRCA game?? and as far i see the Mirage Upgrades will have substantial Rafael features.. and there fore i see the chance of Rafael winning is dim.. I like the bird... but not a powerful one.. So far Rafael is good only in sniffing ... which is only it is good at ... 

As far ban lift ... i guess i have to take back seat now as US is also doing the same which will for EU also to dig the back of china..


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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> All it says is, that the Rafale already has a good T/W ratio and the French are only planing to add higher thrust in later upgrades. At the moment they are looking at more durability and reduced maintenance cost with the M88-2 E4, which will be the standard engine of the Rafale F3+, but they offered us the integration of Kaveri-Snecma if we want (the biggest advantage of Rafale, which no other contender can offer!).
> Btw, TVC was offered for LCA with EJ engine and most likely with the EF too, but that also has to be funded by us if we want it. Higher thrust GE 414 for LCA, or for F18SH must also be funded by us, so this is definitelly nor French specific, nor has it anything to do with Rafale orders.



Buddy what i meant was .. there was a news article which stated Rafael and F18 was underpowered in MMRCA(Not sure about the validity but on the whole every one accepts that fact).. if that is the case we have to ask for the new engine which shows the aircraft is clearly underpower... which is not that case with EF.. we dont need to do enhance with EF.. did you get my point?? but with Rafael yes and we need to pay money for that.. 




> Look, first comes the RFI where all vendors responded with their informations on their fighters... and IAF found out, that based on these infos all 6 fits the requirement and they could enter the field trials. But now field trials are over, IAF now can way better judge what was PR in the vendor infos and what is reality. So if they now found out that A2G capabilities are not good enough, that radars will not be delivered in time, or proposed costs are not correctly calculated by the vendors..., now is the time to shortlist/reject them.
> I had a discussion about the EW with Lt. Prateek in this thread before, you should search for it, but the currtent EF EWS is not as good as the SPECTRA EWS.
> The infos given at wiki, or even Aero India about EFs ground attack capabilities are, about what is possible if every weapon would be integrated, but it does not show what the reality is right now. So far it has not even a single A2G missile (no anti radiation, no anti ship, not anti tank and most important, no cruise missile integrated), which makes it to the least capable in this field!



I am not sure about these details.. as Prateek dear seems to be an authentic guy.. so he must have the information on who was IAF favourite right??... As far i see T3 was offered to India and it will be a true swing role fighter just like MKI.. though not better than MKI(Just my words because i love MKI more than any fighter around... need to see Indradanush ....) but which is not the case with Rafael not as powerful enough especially .... good only for snipping ... but EF has claimed total dominance .... which is needed especially with china..

Yes if IAF is looking for Ground Attack like mirage then EF should go ... and Rafael will also go because there is a king out there which cant be beaten ... 



> Discussed here often before, finacial crisis caused budget cuts in all partner countries, UK and ITA don't need further A2G capabilities because they will get F35, ITA don't even wanted AESA radar, swashplate AESA radar development just started, because partners couldn't agree on development and funds...
> French is going through the same crisis of course and have to cut things too, but they funded the integration of most of the weapons before and don't seems to make cuts on Rafale, because it is meant to replace all older French fighters. 1 country has it easier to look at their budget and decide what to fund and when, compared to 4 countries that has to look at 4 different budgets.



Yes did any of the spokes of any of the country said we are not upgrading EF because we are going to F35... is this a news? or your assumption(Not a personal attack just a question).... But buddy EF already flew with AESA.... means AESA is developed/Testing only Production version is to be finalized and that is pushed for T3 yes which is the concern ... And reducing the orders doesnt mean reducing the funds for R&D ... EU will invest on R&D because they have to do this at some point of time as they cant depend of F35 always.... and as said France is struggling more now to sell there fighter than EU....which means future updates are more costly... we are not talking about the current one... this one will become obsolete in couple of years...  .. and Rafael is not having huge contract outside hardly another 100 planes... which is not the case with EF .. it has got and will get more with more lining up.... so future upgrades are not that costly... 



> That is plain wrong! All EU countries has restrictions on selling arms to China, it was even reported that France had concerns to sell weapons and techs to Pakistan, because they are afraid of techs could be transfered to China.



Is this your opinion?? EU has strict restriction and France want to break it.. and France are ready sell arms to Pak buddy..It is only money because they fear Pakistan will ask for loan and france will not be in position at this point of time.. any way China is getting things from US so EU will also open and this discussion is void now... 



> Also, Rafale has good chances in UAE, Brazil and Swiss, Lybia and Kuwait shows interest too. EF on the other hand, has just lost again a contract in Rumania against F16s and has only the Swiss competition running besides MMRCA.



UAE is out of reach for Rafale.. if France wins it will be a different plane altogether not the Rafale in the inventory... which means UAE has to *fund * more money to france ... and UAE is not interested in the current one... and Brazil seems to go with Gripen now... and for swiss EF is there and Lybia and Kuwait total order is not more than 50.... totally it not more than 100 dude... which means there will be a max of 400 rafale flying including India.. so consider any future upgrade it will be done with 400 planes in mind and only two potential customers India and France will do upgrade.... so see the overall cost ... though this cost is not considered now but yes just like Mirage we will pay a huge price... 



> Btw, EF has around 500 orders (only 2 export customers and both bought for political reasons), Rafale only 180 so far. EF uses mainly cheaper US weapons, while Rafale uses more expensive French/EU weapons. But why is Rafale still offered for lower costs than the EF?


 Total cost of the deal is $10 ^9 and i am sure EF will bring the pice within that... if not yes they are out.. and Rafale offering the same will not make much impact.. and EF has got attractive weapons of US in there kitty a time tested one and they are integrating Meteor also... just like Rafale ...




> This again is wrong! EADS has never offered a partnership in civil aviation and even if, it would be offered by the French too, because it is half owned by them.



EADS hasnt told we will partner with civil aviation.. but it has said it will help in bridging the gap we are lacking... which is told by the EADS chief... i dont think France Dassault Chief has told anything so..... i think this must be an assumption of France POV right?



> All that is on offer is a EF partnership as a minor partner and mainly outsourcing of avionics and if we had gone for EJ 200 engines, also some of the engine parts for all EFs. I don't deny that this still is a big offer and from the industrial point of view possibly the best, but it does not equalise the clear disadvantages of the fighter itself and that are base requirements, that has to be fulfilled first!



Buddy something is better than nothing.. and Dassault hasnt offered this also... where as EADS has got the formal approval in making india has the 5th Partner.....




> The French on the other hand doesn't offer bad things too, Kaveri-Sncema co-delopment and integration into Rafale, French MBDA already fixed Maitri SAM co-development and offers further partnerships in the weapons field and Dassault has stated to go beyond a buyer seller partnership, although we don't know what that means so far.



And do you know the inside information about the Kaveri joke?.. a co development was offered no doubt... but France denied the core technology here which is the key .... And IAF was initially against it.. not sure whether things got resolved on that front... do you have any news on that front?? and for SAM and other stuff we are not sure what is there in our plate... I trust only Israel in this matter.. As far as i know France dont give anything outside.. they wanted everything to happen within them only and wanted there product to be sold outside... 



> The French obviously offers the most co-developments, partnerships and JV and are an independent an sanction proof country, which alone is good for us, but lets hope they will offer a partnership too.



As far MMRCA is considered are they offering anything in the aviation industry to us?? only EADS has decided to do something compared to other contenders ... others are going to give as semi knocked kits and we will manufacture few parts and assemble rest of them...

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## CONNAN

*France&#8217;s Rafale jet struggles to hit its target overseas*

FT.com / Inside Business / Inside Europe - France?s Rafale jet struggles to hit its target overseas

By Paul Betts

Published: October 14 2010 21:23 | Last updated: October 14 2010 21:23

Nicolas Sarkozy likes to portray himself as the executive president. He sees himself as France&#8217;s salesman-in-chief promoting the country&#8217;s flagship exports, clinching deals around the world, especially with fast-growing emerging countries like China, India, Brazil and the oil-rich Gulf nations. He has even set up a so-called &#8220;war room&#8221; in his Elys&#233;e palace to support military and civil exports.

But this grand export strategy seems to be running into growing difficulties of late. The new generation EPR European pressurised reactor &#8211; supposed to be spearheading the country&#8217;s ambitions to lead the revival of the world nuclear market &#8211; is facing all sorts of problems, not least in Finland, the US and in Abu Dhabi where it lost out to South Korea.

Worse, Eurostar, the Channel tunnel high-speed train operator controlled by SNCF, the French state railway, has just ordered German-built Siemens trains rather than those of its national champion, Alstom. Even more worrying is the continuing dearth of export orders for the Dassault Rafale multi-role combat aircraft.

France has yet to win an export order for the Rafale. It has been trying for a decade without success. Securing a foreign order for this combat aircraft is not just a matter of prestige for the French. After all, Serge Dassault, the veteran controlling shareholder of the eponymous aircraft maker, is also a senator and member of the governing UMP party and owner of Le Figaro, the slavishly pro-Sarkozy newspaper.

But there are more important reasons why Rafale export sales are so crucial. Exports would reduce the overall cost of the programme at the same time as providing funds to help finance new research and technology. Without exports, there is the risk that France would no longer be able to ensure the autonomy of its military aircraft industry, especially when the time eventually comes to develop a replacement for the Rafale.

Last, but not least, failure to export the combat aircraft will put further stress on the country&#8217;s already stretched Treasury. Indeed, the French Defence Ministry has decided to order 11 additional Rafales next year earlier than scheduled to ensure that production lines keep running. This will cost the taxpayer an extra &#8364;800m ($1.1bn).

It is not for lack of trying on the part of the president that France has so far failed to place an export order for the Rafale. But Mr Sarkozy also has a tendency of jumping the gun. He clearly finds it difficult to resist announcing to the world that he has finally pulled off a significant export sale for the Rafale even before the contract is signed and delivered.

A year ago, he announced with great fanfare that France had struck up a privileged relationship with President Luis In&#225;cio Lula da Silva and that Brazil had agreed to buy a first batch of 36 Rafale aircraft. In the long run, the order could rise to 100 combat aircraft. But 12 months later, the deal has yet to be finalised and there are signs that the Brazilians may ultimately opt for the rival Swedish Saab Gripen fighter rather than the more expensive Rafale.

A senior Brazilian government official confirmed this week that Brazil had decided to suspend a final decision until after the second round of the country&#8217;s presidential elections at the end of this month. He also suggested the competition was still open. In other words, the choice could still go either way.

This summer, President Sarkozy also announced that the UAE was considering replacing its older fleet of 63 French Mirage jets with Rafales. Once again, the French camp seemed confident they had finally clinched an export order for the aircraft in a region that has traditionally been an important customer for French defence equipment. But this month, the UAE suggested it was also looking at the US Boeing F18 Super Hornet as an alternative. So the prospect of success once again risks turning into a mirage.

Elsewhere, Kuwait and India are looking for new combat aircraft but the competition is bound to be fierce. For several reasons. The first is that the US military-industrial complex is intensifying its export sales drive, not least to compensate for heavy cuts in the Pentagon&#8217;s budget. The second is that Russia is now in the game and has overtaken France as the world&#8217;s third largest arms exporter after the US and the UK. The third is a problem purely of Europe&#8217;s own making.

In all these export contests, Europe invariably fields three competing offers of its own &#8211; the Eurofighter Typhoon, the Rafale and the Saab Gripen &#8211; which is one more than even the US typically offers. In so doing, it gives its US and Russian rivals an obvious advantage. Until the Europeans finally decide to consolidate their combat aircraft industry, they can only continue to lose altitude


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## SpArK

*Eurofighter Consortium Targeting Asian Market​*


The question is, "Could the manufacturers of the Eurofighter-2000 combat aircraft enter the military market in Asia which is already owned by the United States and Russia?". Why is the Eurofighter vnedors so Confident? European fighter jets in asia can be calculated on a few fingers.

For example, Taiwan has used multi-role combat aircraft Mirage-2000 / 5 made in France, Dassault Aviation for a long time. Recently, the Thai Air Force's purchase dozens of next-generation fighter aircrafts, JAS-39 Grippen and 1 unit of an early warning aircraft made by Saab, Sweden. Singapore purchased dozens of M-346 Masters training aircraft made by Alenia Aeromacchi from Italy not long after the Singapore Airshow 2010. The rest are products made in the United States and Russia that dominate the southeast and east asia airforces.

One hope for the Eurofighter consortium is to offer a next generation of fighter aircraft to several countries in Asia who are looking for a replacement to their arsenals that are approaching retirement. Or just equip its air force.

Apparently, *new hope has emerged from Japan, South Korea and Malaysia which restore their confidence to enter the fighter jet markets. *

Yesterday, Eurofighter CEO told flightinternational that he felt optimistic that the Japanese and Malaysian markets are still open. Japan wants U.S. to give it permission to sell the 5th generation stealth jet fighter, F-22 to them, but was rejected by the U.S. For that Japan intends to build or buy its own fifth generation fighter aircraft.

If Japan is the first choice, who is ready with this fifth generation product in addition to Russia and the U.S. Japan has no military trade relations with Russia, obviously not the right choice. The choice fell on the second, ie, build oneself. However, the Japanese producers face financial, human resources and time issues related to design and mass production before they can get approval from the Japanese government. And during that time also, what is the appropriate aircraft to fill the gap, while its neighboring countries were ready with a new generation fighter aircraft.

Based on news releases, Japan intends to buy fourth generation fighter aircraft through a tender process.* Companies that compete have been participating in the tender were Boeing F-15 SE (Silent Eagle) and the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and Eurofighter with EF-2000 Tranche 3B*. But in the future, Japan will buy the fifth generation fighter, STOVL JSF F-35. In addition, the Eurofighter consortium said it would be willing to help build the fifth generation fighter jets aircraft for Japan. Condition is that after the project finished, the Japanese government should be willing to buy between 50 to 60 units for 5 years in the future. Less than that, for example 20 units to 30 units, the possibility of cooperation will be precluded.

South Korea seems to choose to be more independent with KF project (Korean FIGHTER) - X. This project is in phase 3 namely KF-X. Interestingly, Indonesia took part in the project. KF-X III project itself is in discussions with potential partners who might fund the project together with KAI (Korean Aircraft Industry).

Recently, Malaysia Armed Forces TUDM (Malaysian Air Forces) will launch a fighter jet renewal project to replace the old jets that are entering retirement soon. Malaysia's selected several types of fighter planes from the west and east before deciding which ones will become the backbone of their Air Force. Some candidates who come to the surface include: JAS-29NG Grippen, EF-2000 Tranche 3B, F/A-18E/F and SU-35. For the Su-35, the Malaysian government is persuading the Russian government for export.

Eurofighter boasts that the latest modification of EF-2000 with the radar AESA (Active Electronic Scan Array) and Meteor missile capable of turning 180 degrees. Not known whether the Eurofighter will also offer variable nozzle to Malaysia, or indeed included it in the bid package. If Eurofighter offers this package, it is clear that the Eurofighter wants to try to cancel the intention of Malaysia in owning Su-35, because these two jets almost have the same in terms of performance.

The decision will revolve around the objective of the aircraft. Where do they want to dominate? Maritime or land superiority, air superiority or electronic combat warfare.

In addition, they will consider the price given fiscal constraints, the level of difficulty retraining its pilots, mechanics and maintenance.


If the choice ultimately fell on the JAS-39 then its primary purpose is to protect their navy's surface ships and gain the capability to attack submarines. If the F/A-18E/F is choosen the decision will hinge on pilot training regardless of the political risk and the aim to disrupt / neutralize enemy radar and electronic equipment.


If the selection falls to EF-2000, it can be sure the goal is to win air superiority.

So what about Indonesia? The ability of Su-27 and 30 had apparently also been no match for Malaysia, but expect the 4.5 generation fighter capabilities to be much better than Malaysia but still well below that of Australia and Singapore.



Author Opinion: Eurofighter Consortium Targeting Asian Market | GroundReport


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## kingdurgaking

EF-2000 Tranche 3B??

Have they started on T3?? i really doubt that...


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## SpArK

*No CISMOA, No Problem: IAF Chief​*







I asked Indian Air Force chief Air Chief Marshal PV Naik today about his position on the uncertainty over whether or when India will sign the contentious Communciations Interoperability & Security Memorandum of Agreement (CISMOA) with the United States. He had a crisp, short reply: "The government asked us for our opinion on the matter. We have informed the government that [not signing the CISMOA] will not make a difference as far as our operational capability is concerned."

I've posted here about what the IAF doesn't get on its brand new C-130Js as a direct consequence of not signing the CISMOA. I'll be posting soon on how the IAF plans to fill those gaps.


Livefist - The Best of Indian Defence: No CISMOA, No Problem: IAF Chief


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## sancho

kingdurgaking said:


> Buddy what i meant was .. there was a news article which stated Rafael and F18 was underpowered in MMRCA(Not sure about the validity but on the whole every one accepts that fact).. if that is the case we have to ask for the new engine which shows the aircraft is clearly underpower... which is not that case with EF.. we dont need to do enhance with EF.. did you get my point?? but with Rafael yes and we need to pay money for that..



I think you really mixing up too many things, last time the wiki points and now MMRCA with UAE. Rafale in MMRCA has one of the best T/W ratios, so doesn't need a new engine, or higher thrust. The offer to integrate the Kaveri is an additional advantage for India to customise it with our own engine. Not only that we can reduce costs by not licence producing a foreign engine, but we have total control over the engine and can develop further upgrades on our own too. That means we are not dependend on the upgrade solution the vendor gives us in future and can focuse the upgrade to our needs.

The UAE instead as usual wants to customise their Rafale versions, that's why they demand higher thrust, improved radar and EWS, more weapon configs..., but that is their usual behavior, they customised and funded further upgrades at Mirage 2000, just like they did with the F16s before. 



kingdurgaking said:


> Yes if IAF is looking for Ground Attack like mirage then EF should go ... and Rafael will also go because there is a king out there which cant be beaten ...



The funny thing is, that you confuse the Mirage as a ground attack fighter, which was never its aim in IAF. It always served in air superiority roles and was used in Kargil in the strike role only, because our other fighters was not able to do it. Regarding EF and Rafale in A2A, please search in this thread, or google for the ATLC exercise and you will clearly change your mind. 



kingdurgaking said:


> Yes did any of the spokes of any of the country said we are not upgrading EF because we are going to F35... is this a news? or your assumption(Not a personal attack just a question).... But buddy EF already flew with AESA.... means AESA is developed/Testing only Production version is to be finalized and that is pushed for T3 yes which is the concern ...



Most of it was reported often before, just like that the actual AESA that they now are going for is the Swashplate AESA Selex developed partly for the Gripen NG demonstrator. That has nothing to do with the initial AESA development for the EF, they just switched to reduce costs. Infact Germany was against it and wanted a fixed AESA, but the commonality to the Gripen NG development will reduce the R&D costs and UK/ITA and Selex pushed it through and still, till now the developmend is prefunded by the companies only, not by the partners. The companies already stated that they will deliver the early versions of the radar by 2015 only, but the way it goes with the EF, delays are more than likely. 



kingdurgaking said:


> as said France is struggling more now to sell there fighter than EU....which means future updates are more costly... we are not talking about the current one... this one will become obsolete in couple of years... .. and Rafael is not having huge contract outside hardly another 100 planes... which is not the case with EF .. it has got and will get more with more lining up.... so future upgrades are not that costly...



That exactly what I meant in my last post, the EF has already higher numbers, but still failed to reduce the costs to be cheaper than the Rafale, so on what basis can you say that future upgrades will be cheaper? Keep in mind that the costs are even about to rise, at the moment EF uses US Aim 120, which is cost-effective, but just like all Eurocanards, the EF will switch to METEOR when it is available. 



kingdurgaking said:


> Is this your opinion?? EU has strict restriction and France want to break it.. and France are ready sell arms to Pak buddy..It is only money because they fear Pakistan will ask for loan and france will not be in position at this point of time.. any way China is getting things from US so EU will also open and this discussion is void now...



Once again, France is a EU country, which means they have the same restrictions, or do you forget that Germany is offering PN subs, Sweden offers AWACS, ITA/UK radars... to Pakistan too? And so far they don't sell critical techs, or weapons to China.



kingdurgaking said:


> EADS hasnt told we will partner with civil aviation.. but it has said it will help in bridging the gap we are lacking... which is told by the EADS chief... i dont think France Dassault Chief has told anything so..... i think this must be an assumption of France POV right?



You still don't understand it right? EADS is a company that has 50% German shares and 50% French, infact the German shares are completelly privat, but the France gov holds shares of the French part. That means if EADS decided to help Indias civil aviation, it will be with the French together, but as I said there was never such an offer, especially not related to MMRCA although I would be more than happy to see it.



kingdurgaking said:


> And do you know the inside information about the Kaveri joke?.. a co development was offered no doubt... but France denied the core technology here which is the key .... And IAF was initially against it.. not sure whether things got resolved on that front... do you have any news on that front??



http://www.defence.pk/forums/1187229-post3244.html



> India also has been in discussions to develop Kaveri, an indigenous engine, for the LCA. Technology and assistance *discussions were held with Snecma last week.* The Kaveri requires greater thrust and a reduction in weight, a spokesman says.

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## Typhoon

When will the Final results be out? IAF and GOI has taken too much of time and have been postponing the date of Final results? Any Insider information on the dates?? But I can tell you the result-Typhoon is the winner!


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## Stealth_fighter

i think if India goes for western,then they will go for typhoon


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## Hulk

I am not seriously thinking it will be F18.


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## Insane

I don't know why some people think F18 is not a good choice. 

I don't care if its the best, but I think it could be delivered in time without much issues. Get F18 or Rafale and finish this long running drama... Its soon going to overtake running time of kyunki saas bhi kabhi bahu thi 

I have nothing against it but, Typhoon would be a bad choice at this point in time. 

Priority - Quick Induction.
Choice No.1 - F18
End of Story.


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## Typhoon

Insane said:


> I don't know why some people think F18 is not a good choice.
> 
> I don't care if its the best, but I think it could be delivered in time without much issues. Get F18 or Rafale and finish this long running drama... Its soon going to overtake running time of kyunki saas bhi kabhi bahu thi
> 
> I have nothing against it but, Typhoon would be a bad choice at this point in time.
> 
> Priority - Quick Induction.
> Choice No.1 - F18
> End of Story.



On what technical, historical or political basis you claim F-18SH will be best for India? Please elaborate rather than using launguage such as " End of Story".

Please elaborate on Platform, Delivery Systems, agility, *FULL TOT* and *reliability* of US in providing *source codes* to IAF, Systems having *Secure Codes* (i.e. when India goes to war,That A/C could be switched off by Master USA), TOT is major issue as experience by Earlier Buyers of US Toys, *No Further advancement or Up-gradation* will be allowed if and when required without US *permission*, *dependence *for each and every mission will be subjected to prior informing US about the details of the mission;gravely undermining the *mission effectiveness* of IAF.....Plus you can enlighten us on your other case to case aspects, on why F-18 is better than Latest more advanced hassle free A/Cs such as Typhoon or Rafael with FULL TOT!


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## Insane

Typhoon said:


> On what technical, historical or political basis you claim F-18SH will be best for India? Please elaborate rather than using launguage such as " End of Story".
> 
> Please elaborate on Platform, Delivery Systems, agility, *FULL TOT* and *reliability* of US in providing *source codes* to IAF, Systems having *Secure Codes* (i.e. when India goes to war,That A/C could be switched off by Master USA), TOT is major issue as experience by Earlier Buyers of US Toys, *No Further advancement or Up-gradation* will be allowed if and when required without US *permission*, *dependence *for each and every mission will be subjected to prior informing US about the details of the mission;gravely undermining the *mission effectiveness* of IAF.....Plus you can enlighten us on your other case to case aspects, on why F-18 is better than Latest more advanced hassle free A/Cs such as Typhoon or Rafael with FULL TOT!



Enough technical discussion already available on the forum. I did not say it is the best.. I am not here to argue on that. Infact sick of people still going on and on with discussion about technology.

See, when you need something, you decide and buy it within a decent time frame from what is already established in the market. That way you can use the stuff for the original need. If you delay needs will change and technology evolves all the time. 

MMRCA should be in induction phase right now. We are still deciding what to buy. Sorry state of affairs... Force levels are of paramount importance. 

We are already in queue for 5th Gen Fighter FGFA. Ideally I would have wanted IAF to Fly the MMRCA right now instead of 2014-2015. So we have the edge in the region as far as Air power is considered. And come 2017-2020 when PAK-FA/FGFA starts coming in, we maintain the cutting edge over the adversary. 

F/A -18 is a good enough proven fighter, Boeing is a manufacturer of repute who has a matured system ready to deliver. What also helps the cause is that it is not the most expensive as the price is always one key consideration. Now to top it all, we have the same engine for LCA. Good enough for me.

And lastly I trust we can strike a good deal with US. I am not scared of the sanctions. That fear is over-rated.


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## Typhoon

Insane said:


> Enough technical discussion already available on the forum. I did not say it is the best.. I am not here to argue on that. Infact sick of people still going on and on with discussion about technology.
> 
> See, when you need something, you decide and buy it within a decent time frame from what is already established in the market. That way you can use the stuff for the original need. If you delay needs will change and technology evolves all the time.
> 
> MMRCA should be in induction phase right now. We are still deciding what to buy. Sorry state of affairs... Force levels are of paramount importance.
> 
> We are already in queue for 5th Gen Fighter FGFA. Ideally I would have wanted IAF to Fly the MMRCA right now instead of 2014-2015. So we have the edge in the region as far as Air power is considered. And come 2017-2020 when PAK-FA/FGFA starts coming in, we maintain the cutting edge over the adversary.
> 
> F/A -18 is a good enough proven fighter, Boeing is a manufacturer of repute who has a matured system ready to deliver. What also helps the cause is that it is not the most expensive as the price is always one key consideration. Now to top it all, we have the same engine for LCA. Good enough for me.
> 
> And lastly I trust we can strike a good deal with US. I am not scared of the sanctions. That fear is over-rated.



Still you din't answer my queries??

You say F-18SH is a proved platform, could elaborate how many countries have this platform and how many combats this platform- which was mainly designed especially for navy and Marines have faced? 

It does not matter how good a platform you may perceive F-18SH to be, fact to the matter remains this platform has lowest Ground and Air attack capabilities; above all TOT is the major issues and un-reliability of US defense deals is a Proven fact, a change in regime or change in international scenario can make support services hard to fathom, read about Lost Decade, experience of Turkey,and other nations with US imports, you will find a painful reality, and the case of India would be even worse, knowing USA's shortsightedness and ever dynamic foreign policy!


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## Insane

Typhoon said:


> Still you din't answer my queries??
> 
> You say F-18SH is a proved platform, could elaborate how many countries have this platform and how many combats this platform- which was mainly designed especially for navy and Marines have faced?
> 
> It does not matter how good a platform you may perceive F-18SH to be, fact to the matter remains this platform has lowest Ground and Air attack capabilities; above all TOT is the major issues and un-reliability of US defense deals is a Proven fact, a change in regime or change in international scenario can make support services hard to fathom, read about Lost Decade, experience of Turkey,and other nations with US imports, you will find a painful reality, and the case of India would be even worse, knowing USA's shortsightedness and ever dynamic foreign policy!



If you did not understand, I am not intending to answer your queries and that is precisely the reason I ignored them. You should form your own opinion about why people feel the way they feel ( particularly if they are not answering the way you are looking to get the answer), and you are entitled to your opinion.

US uses F 18 and that is enough for me. Why should i sit down to count which countries use what. I did not find any country using Rafale but I still supported it. I am focused on my needs and if something in the current market as of today can satisfy it or not.

Lastly I am not concerned about which country had what kind of a buyer-seller relationship with US. Every relationship is different. If doing business with US was so much of a concern, then we would not award billions of dollars worth of important deals to them.


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## Typhoon

Insane said:


> If you did not understand, I am not intending to answer your queries and that is precisely the reason I ignored them. You should form your own opinion about why people feel the way they feel ( particularly if they are not answering the way you are looking to get the answer), and you are entitled to your opinion.
> 
> US uses F 18 and that is enough for me. Why should i sit down to count which countries use what. I did not find any country using Rafale but I still supported it. I am focused on my needs and if something in the current market as of today can satisfy it or not.
> 
> Lastly I am not concerned about which country had what kind of a buyer-seller relationship with US. Every relationship is different. If doing business with US was so much of a concern, then we would not award billions of dollars worth of important deals to them.



Quoting other person and not answering his queries is considered _________. 

However, it does not matter what you think it depends on IAF and GOI, and experience says that IAF will not be comfortable with restricted technology, when TOT is a pre-requisite and US is unable to assure full TOT at any given time. F-18SH is way too old A/C meant for sea faring navies not Ground Attacks and Air Superiority, above all its Air Frame is least aerodynamic . Fighting at heigh altitudes is not its forte and et al......

In the end its about how the production lines (Dassault and BAE systems already full fill this requirement with IAF having good amount of experience) and after sales services; with full TOT, and any American deal in this context Fails to Please any nation looking for TOT and self-reliability.

P.S: This is a Discussion forum and topics are supposed to be discussed, everyone is entitled to his/her opinions, however when making strong statements, others have to right to ask for explanations, as this being a public forum!


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## Insane

Typhoon said:


> Quoting other person and not answering his queries is considered _________.
> 
> However, it does not matter what you think it depends on IAF and GOI, and experience says that IAF will not be comfortable with restricted technology, when TOT is a pre-requisite and US is unable to assure full TOT at any given time. F-18SH is way too old A/C meant for sea faring navies not Ground Attacks and Air Superiority, above all its Air Frame is least aerodynamic . Fighting at heigh altitudes is not its forte and et al......
> 
> In the end its about how the production lines (Dassault and BAE systems already full fill this requirement with IAF having good amount of experience) and after sales services; with full TOT, and any American deal in this context Fails to Please any nation looking for TOT and self-reliability.



I suggest you read a bit more of the already abundant information available on this forum of each of the MMRCA Competitors. From what I am reading in your posts they don't seem to reflect expertise on either the subject of MMRCA Deal, Fighter planes, IAF Requirements, Capabilities or any other considerations involved.

Alright I am out of this... You can fill in the blanks with wotever. Its your choice at the end of the day.


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## Typhoon

Insane said:


> I suggest you read a bit more of the already abundant information available on this forum of each of the MMRCA Competitors. From what I am reading in your posts they don't seem to reflect expertise on either the subject of MMRCA Deal, Fighter planes, IAF Requirements, Capabilities or any other considerations involved.
> 
> Alright I am out of this... You can fill in the blanks with wotever. Its your choice at the end of the day.



Yes wise decision to run out, rather than making tall claims without any prior knowledge about the subject or supporting your claims by any logical discourse!


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## Insane

Typhoon said:


> P.S: This is a Discussion forum and topics are supposed to be discussed, everyone is entitled to his/her opinions, however when making strong statements, others have to right to ask for explanations, as this being a public forum!



You got that right .. 

But Whoever said that when such questions are asked the original poster making the statement has to answer each of them. Like you already know its a public forum and people are entitled to their opinion, and also to how ( and How much) they express it.

Alright I am back to reading whats going on.. Rather than expressing my opinion, as I do not seem to be good at it. 

Edit - Just read your last post.. and I will let you feel a sense of victory as in you really raised legitimate questions are debunked baseless claims. 

Adios.


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## Gin ka Pakistan

Let see what Obama will offer to India to buy F-18s (UN seat )


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## Typhoon

Insane said:


> You got that right ..
> 
> But Whoever said that when such questions are asked the original poster making the statement has to answer each of them. Like you already know its a public forum and people are entitled to their opinion, and also to how ( and How much) they express it.
> 
> Alright I am back to reading whats going on.. Rather than expressing my opinion, as I do not seem to be good at it.
> 
> Adios.



Yes you may not answer BUT write statements with endings such as "End of Story" etc etc . But if I feel they are illogical statements, I will ask again and again for explanation, if you don't feel like answering, as you rightly suggested you can run out anytime.Ciao!


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## Typhoon

Gin ka Pakistan said:


> Let see what Obama will offer to India to buy F-18s (UN seat )



Its not a a permanent seat which does not require multi-billion dollar deals, above all Swaziland is also in the fray!

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## dbc

Typhoon said:


> *It does not matter how good a platform you may perceive F-18SH to be, fact to the matter remains this platform has lowest Ground and Air attack capabilities*; above all TOT is the major issues and un-reliability of US defense deals is a Proven fact, a change in regime or change in international scenario can make support services hard to fathom, read about Lost Decade, experience of Turkey,and other nations with US imports, you will find a painful reality, and the case of India would be even worse, knowing USA's shortsightedness and ever dynamic foreign policy!



"Lowest ground and Air attack capabilities" care to elaborate? 

As for _"un-reliability of US defense deals"_ I believe India has past experience with the grounding of its Westland Sea King and British Aerospace Sea Harrier assets due to US sanctions. Wait a minute.. British Aerospace isn't that like a British firm? What possible effect can US sanctions have on British arms?


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## Typhoon

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> "Lowest ground and Air attack capabilities" care to elaborate?
> 
> As for _"un-reliability of US defense deals"_ I believe India has past experience with the grounding of its Westland Sea King and British Aerospace Sea Harrier assets due to US sanctions. Wait a minute.. British Aerospace isn't that like a British firm? What possible effect can US sanctions have on British arms?



This A/C has lowest capability in comparison to Typhoon and Rafale , as this A/C has been historically a naval aircraft and not developed for Ground based operations! (I never meant its lowest capability wise in the World, I have been comparing it with Typhoon and Rafale).

British/EU Aerospace may have delay issues but it never ditches anyone! US took Pakistani money and refused to supply F-16s for a long time, its never been a case with EU.

MMRCA deal with Full TOT pre-requisite makes all US A/Cs a bad choice , if India wants FULL TOT and tech to upgrade and learn for its own programs, US surely not going to let India acquire its tech even for good amount of money, this not being a case with Typhoon and Rafale.

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## dbc

Typhoon said:


> This A/C has lowest capability in comparison to Typhoon and Rafale , as this A/C has been historically a naval aircraft and developed for Ground based operations! (I never meant its lowest capability wise in the World, I have been comparing it with Typhoon and Rafale).
> 
> British/EU Aerospace may have delay issues but it never ditches anyone! US took Pakistani money and refused to supply F-16s for a long time, its never been a case with EU.



lowest capability? again I can't get my mind around the words 'lowest capability' please be more specific. 


Is the Typhoon and Rafale superior to the Hornet? Go on tell me more.. 

You haven't been paying attention, British Aerospace / Westland refused to supply spares that resulted in the grounding of India's Harrier and Sea King fleet. French refusal to supply spares for Australian Mirages prevented its deployment to Vietnam. Upon purchase of Typhoon is EU able to guarantee uninterrupted supply of spares to India? In other words is the Typhoon immune to US / UN / EU sanctions?

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## marcos98




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## Typhoon

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> lowest capability? again I can't get my mind around the words 'lowest capability' please be more specific.
> 
> 
> Is the Typhoon and Rafale superior to the Hornet? Go on tell me more..
> 
> You haven't been paying attention, British Aerospace / Westland refused to supply spares that resulted in the grounding of India's Harrier and Sea King fleet. French refusal to supply spares for Australian Mirages prevented its deployment to Vietnam. Upon purchase of Typhoon is EU able to guarantee uninterrupted supply of spares to India? In other words is the Typhoon immune to US / UN / EU sanctions?



Fine then read in detail:

Eurofighter Typhoon

Eurofighter Technology and Performance

Eurofighter Typhoon

I am not aware of British Aerospace/Westland refusal to sell spares due to some sanctions? If you can elaborate that would be great!

India has been invited to Partner EFT program, and I think its highly unlikely that any US sanctions or change in mood will affect production or TOT, once India becomes part of this program

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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> I think you really mixing up too many things, last time the wiki points and now MMRCA with UAE. Rafale in MMRCA has one of the best T/W ratios, so doesn't need a new engine, or higher thrust. The offer to integrate the Kaveri is an additional advantage for India to customise it with our own engine. Not only that we can reduce costs by not licence producing a foreign engine, but we have total control over the engine and can develop further upgrades on our own too. That means we are not dependend on the upgrade solution the vendor gives us in future and can focuse the upgrade to our needs.



No bro... i havent..... let me ask you simple straight questions then??

First of all i am not Rafael basher.. I wish either EF or Rafael only win.. i like EF not as a plane because of offers and other benefits which we are enjoying with EADS.. they have been around us and are trying to take us a partner.... though of less level but it is good step alteast on long term in aviation... As for french i dont see that in that area.. 

As for the planes IAF will be able to operate any plane and customize it latter if they feel it is missing something... To say IAF has not rejected any plane ... they will be happy to use what ever they get... so simple so straight..

Coming to topic mine question will be 

1) is Rafael underpowered? 
2) If yes... dont we not need to fund for the development of powerful engine?
3)Kaveri Integration on Rafael looks good accepted... i like this one part... what else they have offered to us apart from this? .. As for kaveri they are not willing to give the core to us that is the IAF concern... do you have any info whether they will give core technology to us... And i am sure without core kaveri will be dumb?? doesnt it?.. I doubt on SCB technology transfer also...



> The UAE instead as usual wants to customise their Rafale versions, that's why they demand higher thrust, improved radar and EWS, more weapon configs..., but that is their usual behavior, they customised and funded further upgrades at Mirage 2000, just like they did with the F16s before.



1)UAE was brought it discussion saying it is not interested in Rafael in current form thats all and France was not able to convert the deal... 




> The funny thing is, that you confuse the Mirage as a ground attack fighter, which was never its aim in IAF. It always served in air superiority roles and was used in Kargil in the strike role only, because our other fighters was not able to do it. Regarding EF and Rafale in A2A, please search in this thread, or google for the ATLC exercise and you will clearly change your mind.



I was not confused bro.. 
1) I just said if Ground Attack no no to EF or Rafael because F18 is good... 
2) Not sure Rafael beats EF in A2A attack.. i think it is other way....
Any source will be great.... 



> Most of it was reported often before, just like that the actual AESA that they now are going for is the Swashplate AESA Selex developed partly for the Gripen NG demonstrator. That has nothing to do with the initial AESA development for the EF, they just switched to reduce costs. Infact Germany was against it and wanted a fixed AESA, but the commonality to the Gripen NG development will reduce the R&D costs and UK/ITA and Selex pushed it through and still, till now the developmend is prefunded by the companies only, not by the partners. The companies already stated that they will deliver the early versions of the radar by 2015 only, but the way it goes with the EF, delays are more than likely.



IF AESA is that big concern we can bid good bye to all except Fteens... even Rafael will be no where near to them... As far as i know EF will have to provide AESA to IAF if chosen .. that is there in MMRCA Request... so EADS will have no option but to provide by begging or borrowing it from some one...




> That exactly what I meant in my last post, the EF has already higher numbers, but still failed to reduce the costs to be cheaper than the Rafale, so on what basis can you say that future upgrades will be cheaper? Keep in mind that the costs are even about to rise, at the moment EF uses US Aim 120, which is cost-effective, but just like all Eurocanards, the EF will switch to METEOR when it is available.



Simple maths.... an example... When EADS announces a new generation cockpit deployment(development + manufacture) cost $5 billion and say 4 partners + india is interested..

it comes to 600 Fighter.. roughly 8.5 ^million 

For France if new generation cockpit deployment (development + manufacture) cost $3 billion as of now France and India only can offered say roughly 300 fighter .. roughly 10 million...

What is your take on this?... 

Yes EF is costly.... as i said earlier... EF has to quote below $10 billion to bag the order... i really doubt it will be L1 in MMRCA.. or i am wrong on this ? will it be only L1?



> Once again, France is a EU country, which means they have the same restrictions, or do you forget that Germany is offering PN subs, Sweden offers AWACS, ITA/UK radars... to Pakistan too? And so far they don't sell critical techs, or weapons to China.



I dont want to take discussion on this because US started opening to china.. so will EU.... but France did some gimmics to sell to china recently.....



> You still don't understand it right? EADS is a company that has 50&#37; German shares and 50% French, infact the German shares are completelly privat, but the France gov holds shares of the French part. That means if EADS decided to help Indias civil aviation, it will be with the French together, but as I said there was never such an offer, especially not related to MMRCA although I would be more than happy to see it.



1) EADS chief as said he can help bridge gap between civil aviation and Military aviation if EF is choosen(which means he is confident to do that).. does we got the same from Rafael.... is this an offer which i am not aware for Dassault(I am sure France will never do this)?

As far i know Airbus is part of EADS(Majorly) and not Dassault.. am i wrong? .. and France do hold there holdings but i guess other 4 countries will also have a major say



Do enlighten me ... where ever i am wrong


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## sancho

I have not the time today to answer in detail, so the important points only.



kingdurgaking said:


> As for the planes IAF will be able to operate any plane and customize it latter if they feel it is missing something...



No, the US for example don't allow customising with other techs and I doubt they will allow Indian weapons on their fighters. So far only, Russians, French and the Swedes at least for weapons seems to offer this advantages.



kingdurgaking said:


> 1)UAE was brought it discussion saying it is not interested in Rafael in current form thats all and France was not able to convert the deal...



Wrong, they are interested and are even in final talks about the costs, the plans about what upgrades are involved are done. Think about it logically and ask yourself what the SH would offer to UAE, that the F16 Block 60 doesn't already have?




kingdurgaking said:


> IF AESA is that big concern we can bid good bye to all except Fteens... even Rafael will be no where near to them... As far as i know EF will have to provide AESA to IAF if chosen .. that is there in MMRCA Request... so EADS will have no option but to provide by begging or borrowing it from some one...



It's not the AESA in general, it is about not beeing able to deliver it in time and you can't borrow such a radar form anywhere and simply add it to the fighter. It was reported that they want to offer the first squad without AESA and the licence produced with AESA, which is once not confirm to the MMRCA requirements and secondly is a high risk for IAF! If the AESA development is delayed, the licence production would be delayed too and by the fact that they still not fully funded the development and just started it new, delayes are very likely.



kingdurgaking said:


> As far i know Airbus is part of EADS(Majorly) and not Dassault.. am i wrong? .. and France do hold there holdings but i guess other 4 countries will also have a major say



Now I see where the problem is!

You confuse EADS as the company that produces the Eurofighter, but that is not correct, or only partly. The EF GmbH developed and produces the EF and is a consortium mainly of 3 different companies. BAE systems (UK), Alenia Aeronautica (ITA) and the German part of EADS (GER). EADS is just one part of the EF developers, so all they can offer in regard of the EF (ToT for example) must be cleared with the other companies and countries.
If they want to offer any advantages in regard of EADS itself (like you said help in civil aviation), they have to clear it with France, because France is the main and equal partner of Germany in EADS.
So if something like that would be offered, it will be a seperate offer of both countries. Btw, EADS France had some parts in the Rafale development too and holds even a big share of Dassault Aviation. EADS is also providing parts of the AESA radar (T/R modules if I'm not wrong), so don't confuse it with the EF only!


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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> Now I see where the problem is!
> 
> You confuse EADS as the company that produces the Eurofighter, but that is not correct, or only partly. The EF GmbH developed and produces the EF and is a consortium mainly of 3 different companies. BAE systems (UK), Alenia Aeronautica (ITA) and the German part of EADS (GER). EADS is just one part of the EF developers, so all they can offer in regard of the EF (ToT for example) must be cleared with the other companies and countries.
> If they want to offer any advantages in regard of EADS itself (like you said help in civil aviation), they have to clear it with France, because France is the main and equal partner of Germany in EADS.
> So if something like that would be offered, it will be a seperate offer of both countries. Btw, EADS France had some parts in the Rafale development too and holds even a big share of Dassault Aviation. EADS is also providing parts of the AESA radar (T/R modules if I'm not wrong), so don't confuse it with the EF only!



I am sorry.. i also dont want to drag anything further.. You have your own reservations and i have mine on what is good for our country ... secondly your hold on France part of EADS is correct i am not denying that... lets c what is there in the pot.. if EF does win lets c what France has got its take...

Wanted to add one thing.. France looks good but they are cunning... only trusted partner for India is Russia


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## FSLN

Typhoon said:


> I can tell you the result-Typhoon is the winner!





Typhoon said:


> F-18SH, fact to the matter remains this platform has lowest Ground and Air attack capabilities.





Typhoon said:


> F-18SH is way too old A/C







Typhoon said:


> Fighting at heigh altitudes is not its forte and et al......!





Death.By.Chocolate said:


> "Lowest ground and Air attack capabilities" care to elaborate?






Death.By.Chocolate said:


> lowest capability? again I can't get my mind around the words 'lowest capability' please be more specific.
> 
> 
> Is the Typhoon and Rafale superior to the Hornet? Go on tell me more..




It is better to keep one's mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open it and resolve all doubt. ~Abraham Lincoln  (not meant for you DBC)

this one is for you..

Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference. ~Author unknown

and I leave with this one for me: 

Silence is one of the hardest arguments to refute. ~Josh Billings


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## sancho

kingdurgaking said:


> I am sorry.. i also dont want to drag anything further.. You have your own reservations and i have mine on what is good for our country ... secondly your hold on France part of EADS is correct i am not denying that... lets c what is there in the pot.. if EF does win lets c what France has got its take...
> 
> Wanted to add one thing.. France looks good but they are cunning... only trusted partner for India is Russia



No need to say sorry, as I told you before, you just ran into conclusions too fast. Actually I think we agree on more points here than you think, because we both think that the Eurocanards are the better choice of our forces, compared to Mig, or the US fighters. We both think that EF and Rafale are very capable fighters, possibly with the highest potential in the competition and that the EF offset offers are possibly the best.
But although I was born and raised in Germany and would love to see closer ties between India and Germany, I don't think EF is the right fighter for our forces, just because it has not get the best out of its potential yet. The Rafale on the other side is a more mature fighter, with a better level of tech and weapon integration, so would be more useful for our forces and means offers more in return for the money we spend.

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## kish

sancho said:


> No need to say sorry, as I told you before, you just ran into conclusions too fast. Actually I think we agree on more points here than you think, because we both think that the Eurocanards are the better choice of our forces, compared to Mig, or the US fighters. We both think that EF and Rafale are very capable fighters, possibly with the highest potential in the competition and that the EF offset offers are possibly the best.
> But although I was born and raised in Germany and would love to see closer ties between India and Germany, I don't think EF is the right fighter for our forces, just because it has not get the best out of its potential yet. The Rafale on the other side is a more mature fighter, with a better level of tech and weapon integration, so would be more useful for our forces and means offers more in return for the money we spend.



it is hard to compare both fighter for which one is better .. now which country can provide better deal in terms of fighter + other support ...

i know this deal is not just limited to 126 jet only
but if we truly want to compare all fighter ,, just only fighters,, which will come out as better present + future aspects


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## SpArK

*Ajai Shukla: Scrap the MMRCA, buy US F-35s​*
​


Given the global buzz around the Indian Air Force ongoing $10-billion procurement of 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA), my suggestion to scrap the process and, instead, go in for a straight buy of Lockheed Martinâs F-35 Lightening II fighters is admittedly radical. *But consider this: when the F-35 enters service, a couple of years from now, it will comfortably outclass every one of the six fighters that the IAF is currently evaluating. Thereafter, through the entire 30-40 year service life of the selected MMRCA, the IAF will fly a second-rung fighter when it could have gotten the best.*

The six fighters that the IAF has flight-tested over the last year â Boeingâs F/A-18 Super Hornet; Lockheed Martinâs F-16IN Super Viper; Dassaultâs Rafale; the Russian MiG-35; the Swedish Saab Gripen NG; and the Eurofighter â are categorised, *even by their manufacturers, as Fourth Generation fighters. In contrast, the F-35 is globally acknowledged as a Fifth Generation fighter*. The key to its superiority is stealth, making it effectively invisible to radar at longer ranges. This is a battle-winning advantage in aerial combat, where radars are the only way of "seeing" the enemy; the F-35 will detect enemy fighters and launch missiles at them, well before being detected. While attacking ground targets in enemy territory, the F-35 will remain undetected until it is too late to react. Unsurprisingly, each Fifth Generation fighter is the battlefield equivalent of three-four previous generation aircraft.

Since the IAF knows all this, why is the F-35 not in the MMRCA contest? Because, while framing the specifications for the 126-fighter tender in 2003, the IAF set the bar so low that the F-35 was overqualified. The Ministry of Defence (MoD), still nursing a hangover from the Tehelka sting expose, wanted to avoid potential controversy by having several vendors competing for the MMRCA order. Had the IAF been allowed to keep the long-term in mind, and to demand Fifth Generation capabilities, only the F-35 would have met the tender requirement. With that single-vendor situation an MoD bugaboo, the IAF'âs specifications were dumbed down to bring in a clutch of Fourth Generation fighters.

*When Lockheed Martin  one of the four vendors that received inquiries from the IAF in 2003-04  studied the requirement, it offered the F-16 Super Viper, which it estimated met Indias requirements. Offering the overqualified, and pricier, F-35 made little business sense: India's procurement rules give no credit for exceeding the tender requirements.* The Defence Procurement Procedure mandates that the cheapest of the vendors that meets the technical requirements automatically wins a contract.

*Price was just one reason for offering the F-16. With the F-35s prototype not even having flown then (it first flew in 2006), Lockheed Martin knew that the F-35 would not be available for flight-testing in the time frame that the IAF wanted. Senior IAF officers believe that Lockheed Martin made a strategic decision: to field the F-16 in the MMRCA competition; and later offer the F-35 as a Fifth Generation fighter, a logical follow-on to the F-16*. *But that offer (which officials confirm was made to the IAF later) was a non-starter: India had decided to partner Russia in jointly developing the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA).*

*Today, much has changed. The F-35 programme has moved into its production phase and will be flying operationally soon. Senior Lockheed Martin officials confirm that the US is more than keen to sell India the F-35*. Meanwhile, a more confident MoD has demonstrated through its single-vendor purchases of the C-130J Super Hercules and C-17 Globemaster III transport aircraft â that it has the political courage to buy American systems when they clearly outclass the competition.

*Senior IAF officers, serving and retired, make two arguments against the F-35. Accepting that the F-35 far outclasses the other MMRCA contenders, they apprehend that scrapping the MMRCA purchase risks losing several years that the MoD will surely take for fresh evaluations and financial sanctions for buying the F-35.*

*This logic does injustice to the MoD, which has demonstrated in the C-130J and C-17 procurements that it is capable of acting decisively. Having shed its post-Kargil, Pakistan-centric mindset, and focusing on building credible offensive-defence capabilities against China, surely the MoD will not spend $10 billion on fighters that will be outclassed with the inevitable appearance of Chinese Fifth Generation fighters over the Himalayas.*

*The other IAF concern is that, with the F-35 still under development, there is little clarity on when it will become available or on what terms. But the announcement last week of Israels purchase of 20 F-35s (with another 75 likely to follow) has dispelled much of the mist. Israel, which is not even one of the nine countries that funded the F-35 development, will be buying the fighters for $96 million each under the Foreign Military Sales programme, for not much more than the Rafales and Eurofighters estimated cost. Israel will get its F-35s between 2015 and 2017; several of the MMRCA contenders will need as long.*

*Significantly, defence analysts believe that Israel has obtained Washingtons okay to integrate a variety of Israeli sensors and weaponry onto the F-35. The US has long resisted this since it involves passing on software source codes to the Israelis. With an order of 126-200 fighters, India too could demand this important concession.*

*Given India's deteriorating security environment, it must build a Fifth Generation air force, one that will remain the pre-eminent power in South Asia the next two decades. The Fifth Generation heavy fighter already in the works, in partnership with Russia, will only enter service towards the end of the decade. In the medium fighter segment, a Fifth Generation fighter is as essential, with strategic balance maintained by importing from the US. For obvious political reasons, the initiative to scrap the MMRCA and go in for the F-35 must come from the IAF; and the MoD must assure them of minimal delay.
* 


​



<B>Ajai Shukla:</B> Scrap the MMRCA, buy US F-35s

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## CONNAN

@ AJAYSHUKLA  what next scrap PAKFA DEAL ALONG WITH MMRCA BECAUSE HE IS SUGGESTING F 35


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## think

actually makes a lot of sense to buy f35 instead of mmrca. it'll only be 1.25x as expensive and the 250+ Su30s will keep the skies safe for the next 5 years or so. it won't happen though.


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## 1000VA

connanxlrc1000 said:


> @ AJAYSHUKLA  what next scrap PAKFA DEAL ALONG WITH MMRCA BECAUSE HE IS SUGGESTING F 35



connanxlrc1000,
Pls dont do hitwall yaar.He is one of the few defense journalist who wrote some good credible articles.


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## CONNAN

1000VA said:


> connanxlrc1000,
> Pls dont do hitwall yaar.He is one of the few defense journalist who wrote some good credible articles.



thats why i am hitting my head buddy he wrote some good articals supporting MMRCA deal and all of a sudden he is against it i just dont get it as far as change of his opinion is concerned and he should have expressed this in the first place when we went for MMRCA


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## Hulk

1000VA said:


> connanxlrc1000,
> Pls dont do hitwall yaar.He is one of the few defense journalist who wrote some good credible articles.



Yes he was the one who wrote the biggest lie ever that Arjun beat the T90 Tanks. I got to know this personally from people involved.


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## think

actual, if you think carefully, india really does need a complete 5th gen AF to stand a chance against China.

they'll always have a numerical advantage with a 4+ gen AF.


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## Trisonics

I think AJAYSHUKLA does make a valid point. I had posted once that f-16s should be our first choice (not in full numbers) and the natural successor will be F-35. You could also split it between the MIG-35 since we already have similar aircraft and the other slice can go to the F-35. Use all other resources on Tejas 2.

The way defence deals are going, its becoming increasingly apparent that Russia and US will be our biggest vendors and partners in the future. So why not plan or scrutinize the effects through the MMRCA?


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## anathema

indianrabbit said:


> Yes he was the one who wrote the biggest *lie ever that Arjun beat the T90 Tanks.* I got to know this personally from people involved.



Huh ? Care to elaborate ?


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## anathema

connanxlrc1000 said:


> @ AJAYSHUKLA  what next scrap PAKFA DEAL ALONG WITH MMRCA BECAUSE HE IS SUGGESTING F 35



Lets not shoot the messenger...its a valid suggestion !! Why not go for the best ? 

The only problem is that we need fighters badly and soon -- but the reason why we are in this situation is purely MoD's fault.


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## indushek

connanxlrc1000 said:


> @ AJAYSHUKLA  what next scrap PAKFA DEAL ALONG WITH MMRCA BECAUSE HE IS SUGGESTING F 35



May be he is hinting at things to come?? The gov can take on some limited number of f-16 and order the rest for f-35vtol?? This could be a possibility u know.


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## CONNAN

indushek said:


> May be he is hinting at things to come?? The gov can take on some limited number of f-16 and order the rest for f-35vtol?? This could be a possibility u know.



The F-16, SH, EF and Rafale are currently in production.I'm not sure how much customization is involved in the F-16IN or any of the other proposals AND REGARDING f35 this is what the others think

F-35 JSF: Can It Meet Canada's Needs?


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## jha

AJAI SHUKLA is turning PRO-US , it seems..


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## somu

Ajai Shukla: Scrap the MMRCA, buy US F-35s

*His article is just Pro-US*. If India is not looking for Russian made we can go for Eurofighter or Rafale instead of F-35, if we buy F-35s we have to face the problem what is happening in C-17 Globemaster, to safeguard its interest india refuses to sign CISMOA & BECA the consequences are:
Here's the official list of equipment that India won't get as a direct consequence of the hanging CISMOA:

* AN/ARC-222 Single Channel Ground and Airborne Radio System (SINCGARS) - Manufacured by Magnovox and administered by the US Air Force

* KV-119 IFF Digital Transponder (Mode 4 Crypto Applique) - Manufactured by Raytheon and administered by the US Air Force

* TACTERM / ANDVT Secure Voice (HF) Terminal - Administered by the US Air Force

* VINSON KY-58 Secure Voice (UHF/VHF) Module - Administered by the US Air Force

* Finally, the Rockwell-Collins AN/ARC-210(V) SATCOM Transceiver's COMSEC/DAMA embdedded RT is replaced with an RT that has no COMSEC/SINCGARS (Data from Livefist blogspot)

If we buy F-35 same thing will happen. Indian bureaucrats are aware of it. so better go for Eurofighter, Rafale.


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## SpArK

*French Defence Chief On The Rafale​*By Shiv Aroor






​
Was at a press event with visiting French Chief of Defence Staff, Admiral Édouard Guillaud, this evening. Apart from a lot of questions on Afghanistan and the Indian Ocean, the Admiral responded to a question about the MMRCA competition by saying, "_I am not going to raise the curtain on any specific discussions. Of course it is preferable that India operates the same equipment as us. It would contribute to better interoperability. The Rafale is one of the finest fighter jets in the world right now. India has purchased Mirage-2000s in the past, which continue to be some of the best fighter-bombers in the world. We have always been on India's side strategically._"

Admiral Guillaud will also be visiting the Mazagon Dock in Mumbai tomorrow, the yard where India is in the process of license building six Scorpene-class submarines. The long-pending contract to upgrade the Indian Air Force's Mirage fleet stands to be concluded and signed when President Sarkozy visits early December.


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## indushek

connanxlrc1000 said:


> The F-16, SH, EF and Rafale are currently in production.I'm not sure how much customization is involved in the F-16IN or any of the other proposals AND REGARDING f35 this is what the others think
> 
> F-35 JSF: Can It Meet Canada's Needs?



Do u know that Air Power Australia feller's always say that except F-22 no other aircraft is viable  oh man at first i used to like the detailed analysis on this site but i think secretly by posting such articles may be they want to pressurize Australian govt to pressurize America to export F-22. If u know what i mean .

I don't say that this is completely baseless article but just think how much can we really decide upon , if the USA which always stays ahead of the world by 10 years at the least, wants to buy these and that too in huge numbers. Are they fools to do it Connax u tell me.


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## Hulk

This is mind games, no companies are buying journalist to further their goals. Ajay Shukla seems to be easy buy.


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## kingdurgaking

The Central Factor in Selecting the M-MRCA

With the technical, flight and staff evaluation of all the six contenders for the126 M-MRCA fighters now done, time has come to seriously look for a national consensus on the parameters of the selection. This is not a simple acquisition and the decision making will be extremely difficult unless we are clear of the key factors that should be decided upon in advance besides the technical specifications met and as no doubt spelt out in the RFP (Request for Proposals). Our decision must be guided by two basic factors: that nearly a decade has gone past from the time that IAF was looking for a Mirage 2000 type to fill the slot that has come to be described as the M-MRCA (Medium-Multi Role Combat Aircraft). This term is critically important for a number of reasons.

To begin with, like in most countries, the Ministry of Defence (ours is at South Block) would decide the mix of aircraft types that the IAF would need in future, based on the operational tasks and capabilities, that is, the quality and the quantity, while the Finance Ministry at North Block would look closely at the budgetary costs of acquisition as well as the life-cycle costs which would have a major influence on defence budgets for the coming decades. An excessively high-performance (beyond the medium level fighter) will lead to higher costs and budgetary commitments which will force the size of the IAF to be curtailed when it actually needs to get back to 39+ combat squadrons and then expand to the Cabinet-sanctioned 50 squadrons. For obvious reasons the bulk of these factors should, and would, remain classified. Yet the informed public in the worlds largest democracy needs to have some idea of at least the parameters that might finally go into decision making.

The most crucial parameter has already been indicated by the very nomenclature which provides the description of the type of aircraft required: that is, a medium sized multirole combat aircraft. The necessity of this class of aircraft has arisen due to a number of factors. Firstly, we need to fill the gap that has already arisen due to life-expiry of a large force of MiG-21s. The only medium sized multi-role combat aircraft left in the IAF today is the Mirage 2000 with an inventory of around 50 aircraft. At the level above that, we are already committed to the heavy Su-30MKI being manufactured in HAL for the past few years. And at the lower size level, that is the light combat (multi-role) combat aircraft: we have already embarked on the indigenously designed LCA (Light Combat Aircraft) that was to have replaced the MiG-21s before they went out of service, which Russian-type itself was a light combat aircraft. The LCAs glitches, which inevitably exist in all complex new designs (for example, the F-35), would no doubt keep getting resolved as we go along. Of course it would be useful if the vendor selected for the M-MRCA also gives assistance in incorporating the necessary improvements in the LCA to improve upon it.

In the class of heavy multi role combat aircraft, the choice was made (wisely under the circumstances) a long time ago and the Su-30MKI, which is the envy of our neighbours and the satisfaction of the IAF, is already under series production and this type will likely equip over 60% of IAFs authorised combat force by the time the last Su-30 rolls out of HALs Nasik factory. No doubt the FGFA fifthgeneration fighter (which is largely based on Su-30/35 technologies) to be jointly developed by Russia and India would at a later date add to the heavy category. About 16-20% of the authorised combat force (around126-200 aircraft) would then need to be equipped by the medium multi-role combat aircraft, the balance 20%, hopefully by the indigenous LCA. This raises the question of what type and size of aircraft we should looking at, subject to its operational parameters for satisfying the IAF needs.

The cost and performance of a combat aircraft broadly depends upon its size and weight and what avionics and weapons it carries. This parameter would virtually rule out the Boeing Super Hornet (an excellent aircraft in its class) and the MiG-35 (for another reason) but both not too far from the Su-30 in size or origin. It would neither be prudent nor affordable to maintain nearly 80% of the combat force consisting of just heavy multi-role aircraft from a single source for the coming decades since the world situation would no doubt have undergone major changes during this period.

At around 24,000 kg maximum weight, the French Rafale and the European Eurofighter Typhoon also come closer to the upper end of a medium combat aircraft. They offer great advantage in the quantum of fuel and weapon load carried, but it is only actual operation and detailed cost calculations that can tell us of their desirability in our inventory. This leaves us with two types with obvious advantages of being clearly in the category of Medium multi-role combat aircraft that have been offered in the RFP: the US Lockheeds F-16IN Super Viper and the Swedish Saab Gripen NG/IN, both configured specially to meet Indian requirements (hence the IN in their nomenclature).

Popular perceptions may opt against the F-16 since this has been mainstay with the Pakistan Air Force since 1982 and recent inductions are raising that force level to as many as 118 F-16s in PAF inventory. These are being upgraded, but are expected to remain somewhat inferior to the F-16s being offered to India which should be taken serious note of. While the F-16 would remain the backbone of the Pakistan Air Force, its Indian version would imply a maximum of 16-20% of the IAF combat force level with the Su-30MKI far outstripping it in numbers. There is also an advantage if the United States is willing to transfer (on lease or sale) 100-odd partially used F-16s from its Air National Guard to the IAF.

However, the choice that comes closest to the medium multi-role aircraft that the IAF has been seeking since a decade ago (the Mirage 2000 type) is the Swedish Gripen which has maximum and empty weights at around 17,000 kg and 7,000 kg respectively, almost equal to that of the Mirage 2000. Since the Mirage 2000 is not in the running anymore, this makes it necessary to focus on the aircraft type closest to the medium combat aircraft, that is, the Swedish Gripen and Lockheed-Martin F-16, with the EADS Eurofighter Typhoon included at the higher end. Gripens manufacturers could also offer some aircraft from Swedish Air Force reserves as an interim. However much would depend upon what is carried by the aircraft in terms of avionics and weapons apart from its flying performance that meets our needs.

But there is a larger issue that should receive serious attention: this refers to the other matter we set out to deal with, that is the impact of acquisitions from abroad on our aircraft industry in the future. It is vital that the next fighter deal must go well beyond simple purchase and even local manufacture of the fighter and its major systems. Even the licence manufacture option leaves the country dependent on external sources of supply. We were lulled in the past into the belief that transfer of technology was taking place while and vertical partnerships and, secondly, empower Indias industry through capacity building with acquisition of modern aerospace technology. Both these principles are crucial to strengthening self-reliance through enhancing mutual dependence with countries and their industries that are willing to do so. These are also important for sustaining our broader techno-economic growth rates. But these requirements can be met only through the reality that it was production technology that was actually transferred and not the essential design technology and data. This is why we have had to go back to Moscow to upgrade even the comparatively less sophisticated aircraft like the MiG-21. We now have the Su-30 being manufactured under license though we dont know how much design data is being transferred to HAL. This is probably the reason for Russian discomfort over inclusion of the offsets clause from new purchases from them.

Large investments in defence modernisation with high-technology weapons, particularly the acquisition of new fighters must be leveraged to energise our defence (especially aerospace) industry once it is clear that they fit into our doctrine and strategy in the larger context of what quality and quantity of aerospace forces are required for the next several decades. This should aim to serve two key purposes: build interdependence through horizontal process of acquisition and horizontal diffusion of technology beyond our present vertically organised hierarchical aircraft design and development model remotely, but firmly, managed from South Block. Global trends in aerospace industry on one side and Indias growing technological and economic capabilities on the other, point towards seeking mutual advantages in pursuing the horizontal technology diffusion route. This is where the issue of offsets assumes great importance.

The offsets clause in our procurement policy may be seen by many as infusing FDI to the extent of 30-50% of every contract into our economy. In spite of large reserves of foreign exchange available, future FDI would continue to be an important factor. But this cannot be the primary reason for seeking offsets. We will need spare parts for thirty years or more. In between there will be many requirements of modifications and upgrades of the systems. We should be able to provide as much as possible from indigenous (mostly private) industry through joint ventures that must be negotiated now. The importance and extent of such agreements would be crucial to maintaining high serviceability and low accident rates of the combat force and hence its effectiveness during war over the next three decades, and more.

The IAFs new fighter would require a mid-life upgrade 10-15 years after it enters service and this should provide a benchmark criterion for offsets to establish the ability to design and undertake that in India. This can be expected only if the prime manufacturers establish the necessary design, development and production facilities in country. The Maruti-Suzuki experience of vendor development which has led to high levels of automotive parts exports needs a special look in this regard. It needs to be remembered that design and development is the foundation for self-reliance and till recently this had suffered in our aircraft industry. The new M-MRCA has already been designed elsewhere. But we still have opportunities to access design and development of components, systems and sub-systems in partnership with foreign enterprises.

Ultimately all this must fit into the principle of broader national interests and (grand?) geopolitical strategy to sustain them beyond system costs and performance factors. The question of American reliability will continue to worry a lot of minds for a long time. But in this business, most suppliers would be under the same scanner. European policies in the past have raised doubts about the impact of US policies on even product support and now some EU partners differences may also impact their future actions. The Soviet Union (and the relationship it had with us) disappeared long ago and new dimensions are already impacting Indo-Russian arms relationship, not the least of them being the Russian highend military technology flows to China and the China-Pakistan strategic nexus where China is one of the two suppliers of high-technology arms for the Pakistan Air Force. The signals that Moscow is sending out are not very encouraging.

In the ultimate analysis our decision on the new M-MRCA must rest on broader national interests.

Air Commodore Jasjit Singh
Director,
Centre for Air Power Studies







*Now a new winner is fore seen *

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## CONNAN

indushek said:


> Do u know that Air Power Australia feller's always say that except F-22 no other aircraft is viable  oh man at first i used to like the detailed analysis on this site but i think secretly by posting such articles may be they want to pressurize Australian govt to pressurize America to export F-22. If u know what i mean .
> 
> I don't say that this is completely baseless article but just think how much can we really decide upon , if the USA which always stays ahead of the world by 10 years at the least, wants to buy these and that too in huge numbers. Are they fools to do it Connax u tell me.



ok lets keep our diferences aside regarding the topic for a while just think of how many strings we have to face when we get the F 35 and we have fighters like mig 27 and jags becoming absolute AND YOU GOT A LONG LIST OF ORDERS FOR F35 so it will be too late for IAF by the time our turn come into picture even if we sign the agreement to buy f35 today next we are getting PAKFA and we got MKI'S to take care of china so what is left here is pakistan in case or if at all we have a war i think MMRCA aircraft will counter PAF effectively and we have OUR OWN MCA and FGFA IN THE LINE so it dosent fit in FOR IAF BUT i do agree it will fit well for INAF


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## sancho

Strange days at the moment, one stupid analysis following the other. First 35 although it does not fulfull major requirements of MMRCA (no induction of first squad in 2014, no licence production in India) and now this. 



> The cost and performance of a combat aircraft broadly *depends upon its size and weight* and what avionics and weapons it carries...
> 
> ...*This leaves us with two types with obvious advantages of being clearly in the category of Medium multi-role combat aircraft that have been offered in the RFP: the US Lockheeds F-16IN Super Viper and the Swedish Saab Gripen NG/IN,* both configured specially to meet Indian requirements (hence the IN in their nomenclature).



So because size and weight F16IN is a medium weight fighter and Rafale is heavy weight fighter right? 

Length: F16IN - 15.03m / Rafale - 15.27m
Wingspan: F16IN - 10.00m / Rafale - 10.80m
Height: F16IN - 5.09m / Rafale - 5.34m
Empty weight: F16IN - 9979 kg / Rafale - 9500 kg
MTOW: F16IN - 21800Kg / Rafale - 24500Kg





















French Air Force Rafales Deploy to Luke AFB | News*| Fence Check




> This is where the issue of offsets assumes great importance.



And that is why the vendor that can offer the least ammount of offsets (SAAB) is a good idea?



> We will need spare parts for thirty years or more. In between there will be many requirements of modifications and upgrades of the systems. *We should be able to provide as much as possible from indigenous (mostly private) industry through joint ventures that must be negotiated now*.



Saab offers modification of weapons, but not spares, neither integration of Indian parts. How could they, when most of the fighter is already foreign? Do we have to discuss about Indian parts in US fighters?



> The importance and extent of such agreements *would be crucial to maintaining high serviceability* and *low accident rates* of the combat force and hence its *effectiveness during war* over the next three decades, and more.



Is it me, or do they discribe the Mirage 2000 experience in IAF here? 
So why would be the fighter that is based on exactly this Mirage is a bad idea again?


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## indushek

connanxlrc1000 said:


> ok lets keep our diferences aside regarding the topic for a while just think of how many strings we have to face when we get the F 35 and we have fighters like mig 27 and jags becoming absolute AND YOU GOT A LONG LIST OF ORDERS FOR F35 so it will be too late for IAF by the time our turn come into picture even if we sign the agreement to buy f35 today next we are getting PAKFA and we got MKI'S to take care of china so what is left here is pakistan in case or if at all we have a war i think MMRCA aircraft will counter PAF effectively and we have OUR OWN MCA and FGFA IN THE LINE so it dosent fit in FOR IAF BUT i do agree it will fit well for INAF



On this post i am completely agreeing with you. No doubt F-35 would be a overkill. 

However as we advance into future may be i mean may be some 20 years down the line our MMRCA could become obsolete u know. Just my personal thought.

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## rsingh

US to give $2 bn military aid to Pakistan

I am quite sure atleast 1 billion dollars from this 2 billion would in form F16, Bvr and may AWACS.

Obama mission: Billions to Pakistan, billions from India - The Times of India

We should go for mix of Rafale and Gripen NG(_This way we would have a managed to keep the costs low and balance between quantity and quality could have been achived._) or anything other than American fighter. Most important thing in this MMRCA is not just A2G capability of fighter but also ToT.
Because this ToT would Boost HAL and other allied High Tech Indian firms into big league. In 3-4 months if MOD are not satisfied with ToT being offered by GE for GE404 then they should cancel the deal go to the Europeans. 

Otherwise If the MMRCA goes to US then we just end up financing arms bonanza that Uncle Sam has decided to lavish upon Pakistan.


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## CONNAN

the problem faced by IAF is depleting squadrons and mig 27 is a 3.5 generation fighter bomber so we have atleast 100 of them operational so we got no choice but to go for MMRCA and replace them and we can only do this i mean we can only effectively replace them if the IAF chooses a fighter that is in full production well that IS THE BIG QUESTION



indushek said:


> On this post i am completely agreeing with you. No doubt F-35 would be a overkill.
> 
> However as we advance into future may be i mean may be some 20 years down the line our MMRCA could become obsolete u know. Just my personal thought.


WELL THIS IDEA OF YOURS WILL FIT WITH NAVY DOCTORINE by the time IAC 2& 3 arrives we can have the F35.

atleast 2 squadrons will do the job for the navy thus filling all the gaps


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## CONNAN

rsingh said:


> US to give $2 bn military aid to Pakistan
> 
> I am quite sure atleast 1 billion dollars from this 2 billion would in form F16, Bvr and may AWACS.
> 
> Obama mission: Billions to Pakistan, billions from India - The Times of India
> 
> We should go for mix of Rafale and Gripen NG(_This way we would have a managed to keep the costs low and balance between quantity and quality could have been achived._) or anything other than American fighter. Most important thing in this MMRCA is not just A2G capability of fighter but also ToT.
> Because this ToT would Boost HAL and other allied High Tech Indian firms into big league. In 3-4 months if MOD are not satisfied with ToT being offered by GE for GE404 then they should cancel the deal go to the Europeans.
> 
> Otherwise If the MMRCA goes to US then we just end up financing arms bonanza that Uncle Sam has decided to lavish upon Pakistan.



but you know pakistan has its own headaches with uncle sams products


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## luckyyy

rsingh said:


> US to give $2 bn military aid to Pakistan
> 
> I am quite sure atleast 1 billion dollars from this 2 billion would in form F16, Bvr and may AWACS.
> 
> Obama mission: Billions to Pakistan, billions from India - The Times of India
> 
> We should go for mix of Rafale and Gripen NG(_This way we would have a managed to keep the costs low and balance between quantity and quality could have been achived._) or anything other than American fighter. Most important thing in this MMRCA is not just A2G capability of fighter but also ToT.
> Because this ToT would Boost HAL and other allied High Tech Indian firms into big league. In 3-4 months if MOD are not satisfied with ToT being offered by GE for GE404 then they should cancel the deal go to the Europeans.
> 
> Otherwise If the MMRCA goes to US then we just end up financing arms bonanza that Uncle Sam has decided to lavish upon Pakistan.



one should not forget and always keep in mind that pakistan is a non-nato ally of amarica...


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## TaimiKhan

rsingh said:


> US to give $2 bn military aid to Pakistan
> 
> I am quite sure atleast 1 billion dollars from this 2 billion would in form F16, Bvr and may AWACS.
> 
> Obama mission: Billions to Pakistan, billions from India - The Times of India
> 
> We should go for mix of Rafale and Gripen NG(_This way we would have a managed to keep the costs low and balance between quantity and quality could have been achived._) or anything other than American fighter. Most important thing in this MMRCA is not just A2G capability of fighter but also ToT.
> Because this ToT would Boost HAL and other allied High Tech Indian firms into big league. In 3-4 months if MOD are not satisfied with ToT being offered by GE for GE404 then they should cancel the deal go to the Europeans.
> 
> Otherwise If the MMRCA goes to US then we just end up financing arms bonanza that Uncle Sam has decided to lavish upon Pakistan.



Don't get paranoid, this 2B$ is spread over 5 year time period, meaning 400M$ per year availability and they would be used for COIN related equipment not F-16s, BVRs or AWACS.


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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> Strange days at the moment, one stupid analysis following the other. First 35 although it does not fulfull major requirements of MMRCA (no induction of first squad in 2014, no licence production in India) and now this.
> 
> 
> So because size and weight F16IN is a medium weight fighter and Rafale is heavy weight fighter right?
> 
> Length: F16IN - 15.03m / Rafale - 15.27m
> Wingspan: F16IN - 10.00m / Rafale - 10.80m
> Height: F16IN - 5.09m / Rafale - 5.34m
> Empty weight: F16IN - 9979 kg / Rafale - 9500 kg
> MTOW: F16IN - 21800Kg / Rafale - 24500Kg
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> French Air Force Rafales Deploy to Luke AFB | News*| Fence Check
> 
> 
> And that is why the vendor that can offer the least ammount of offsets (SAAB) is a good idea?
> 
> Saab offers modification of weapons, but not spares, neither integration of Indian parts. How could they, when most of the fighter is already foreign? Do we have to discuss about Indian parts in US fighters?
> 
> Is it me, or do they discribe the Mirage 2000 experience in IAF here?
> So why would be the fighter that is based on exactly this Mirage is a bad idea again?



hmmmm Brother different people different perception.. My guess is he is another shukla ji or Vishnu.. supporting there views.. but i liked his logical analysis.... Though i dont alias with his view on Rafael and EF .. though he agrees they fall under Medium but points intelligently as Upper medium and skip them.. what the heck is upper or lower? Anything between the range is medium... 

This Commodore gave an intelligent analysis pointing Maintenance on size and other parameters.. and the TOT offset called production tech 
and not the design tech.. 

This kind of views will largely makes every one confuse what IAF wants.. The only way we can come this viscous circle is by drawing a line this is the requirement from Aircraft and ToT.. who ever gives the best product will clinch the deal...


Nowerdays this MMRCA has become like a soap with lot of twist and turns.. running for years...


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## rsingh

connanxlrc1000 said:


> but you know pakistan has its own headaches with uncle sams products



Do u think the Americans would let them buy Chinese or may be European Stuff with Their Money. 

At the time of any Indo-Pak spat if the Pakistanis manage to harm Indian economy and its people using this 2 billion stuff ,PA's mission would be accomplished . Sanctions may make 2billion dollar stuff useless but by then these weapons have served their purpose. Look Pakistan has not much to loose even if we inflict them with twice the damage as done by them to us. After the spat Pakistan has Arab and China to help them out in such situation but we got none. Any conflict would push us atleast a decade back and worst thing about these weapons is that it boosts the confidence of PA and then they become more adventurous. And things like Kargil happen.


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## marcos98

*Boeing confident with Indian Super Hornet bid​*Boeing confident with Indian Super Hornet bid
By Craig Hoyle

Boeing is optimistic it will make the shortlist for India's medium multirole combat aircraft (MMRCA) requirement in 2011 with its F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, says Rick McCrary, capture team manager for its Defense, Space & Security business unit.

With India having completed in-country flight evaluations of the six candidate airframes, McCrary believes a shortlist will be issued next year to narrow the field, most likely after the Aero India air show in Bangalore.
*
"I think it will be the heavy twins," he says, referring to the Super Hornet and rival offers with the Dassault Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon and RSK MiG-35. "They're looking for more serious medium combat aircraft, in weight and performance," he says.*

Lockheed Martin and Saab are also pursuing the MMRCA contract offering their single-engined F-16IN and Gripen NG designs.
*
The Indian air force is seeking an initial 126 aircraft, with an option for 50% more at the same unit price, but McCrary says the service could eventually need up to 400 of the winning design. "They've got a huge air force, but it's ageing," he notes.*

Deliveries will start within 36 months of a contract award, which is expected to be made in 2012. The first 18 aircraft will be completed by the successful bidder before final assembly and manufacturing responsibilities are progressively transferred to India. "This is a 20-year programme," McCrary notes.

In the case of Boeing, the company would first transfer final assembly and test of the Super Hornet for India from its St Louis site in Missouri and then "work back from there."

*McCrary says New Delhi's recent selection of GE Aviation's F414 engine - which also powers the Super Hornet - for the MkII version of its Tejas light combat aircraft could help Boeing's bid for MMRCA. "We think they're disconnected, but would certainly like to think there's some synergy there."*

Boeing also continues to answer requests for information about the Super Hornet from the United Arab Emirates about its new fighter requirement. France is also pursuing a proposed sale of its Rafale to the UAE's air force.


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## Hulk

marcos98 said:


> *
> The Indian air force is seeking an initial 126 aircraft, with an option for 50% more at the same unit price, but McCrary says the service could eventually need up to 400 of the winning design. "They've got a huge air force, but it's ageing," he notes.
> *


*

Wow 400 would be good number, this is why MRCA is so important.*


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## sancho

kingdurgaking said:


> hmmmm Brother different people different perception...
> 
> ...Though i dont alias with his view on Rafael and EF .. though he agrees they fall under Medium but points intelligently as Upper medium and skip them.. what the heck is upper or lower? Anything between the range is medium.



That's what I don't understand, why so many people taking Rafale as an heavy fighter, although it has similar size and weight as the F16.
The only real difference are the 2 engines, but that doesn't make it a heavy fighter, or on the upper medium class. 



kingdurgaking said:


> This Commodore gave an intelligent analysis pointing Maintenance on size and other parameters.. and the TOT offset called production tech
> and not the design tech..



True, but based on that, his conclusion that Gripen and NG are the best choices doesn't fit anymore. LM is restricted in terms of customisation, Gripen can't offer good offsets in return.



kingdurgaking said:


> Nowerdays this MMRCA has become like a soap with lot of twist and turns.. running for years...



Totally agree!

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## sancho

indianrabbit said:


> Wow 400 would be good number, this is why MRCA is so important.



Have some big doubt about that, because the production of so many fighters would run way too long and we will produce FGFA, maybe even AMCA by that time.


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## rsingh

400, is Boeing giving these planes for free. I also want one. Traffic in ghaziabad is very chaotic.


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## kish

rsingh said:


> 400, is Boeing giving these planes for free. I also want one. Traffic in ghaziabad is very chaotic.




but fuel will not free 



> riginally Posted by indianrabbit View Post
> Wow 400 would be good number, this is why MRCA is so important.



we are already running other programme,, so does we need 400 mrca ?


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## saurav

So,now we will be buying 400 MRCAs...Can i get one ...Roads are not very rider friendly..


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## kingdurgaking

saurav said:


> So,now we will be buying 400 MRCAs...Can i get one ...Roads are not very rider friendly..



Its a speculation dude.. all blocks will be freed when Tejas MK2 turns out to be successful...

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## jha



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## jha



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## jha



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## jha



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## jha

---------- Post added at 02:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:05 PM ----------

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## jha



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## jha

One of the good points in the whole article is the possible integration of METEOR on Su-30 MKI....What a fighter it will become with AESA+BRAHMOS+METEOR+K-100 ...

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## palash_kol

jha said:


> One of the good points in the whole article is the possible integration of METEOR on Su-30 MKI....What a fighter it will become with AESA+BRAHMOS+METEOR+K-100 ...


It would be more destructive if it was a fifth gen fighter + your specification....


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## kish

palash_kol said:


> It would be more destructive if it was a fifth gen fighter + your specification....




which fifth gen fighter ???? 

though i m agree with u but *no fifth gen fighter will be available to us soon* as u can see 
f 22 not for sell
f 35 still time to induct and there are so many in Que already and very unlikely that we can produce it in home with full TOT. (correct me if wrong)
pak fa/ffga ...long way to go

but 
we have mki right now ... better to speculate about mki which we have and jha put a good point 


one more thing,,
a 5th gen fighter will already equip with most of these specification so no need to call these specification separately when we use term fifth gen fighter jet.


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## palash_kol

kish said:


> which fifth gen fighter ????
> 
> though i m agree with u but *no fifth gen fighter will be available to us soon* as u can see
> f 22 not for sell
> f 35 still time to induct and there are so many in Que already and very unlikely that we can produce it in home with full TOT. (correct me if wrong)
> pak fa/ffga ...long way to go
> 
> but
> we have mki right now ... better to speculate about mki which we have and jha put a good point
> 
> 
> one more thing,,
> a 5th gen fighter will already equip with most of these specification so no need to call these specification separately when we use term fifth gen fighter jet.



No...I dont have any fifth gen aircraft right now...

What I said is that if we would have, then that would be great.....

Yah...We will get PAK-FA by 2017....

Just think if PAK-FA can carry Brahmos, metior, Python 5 and K-172(PAK-FA will surely get AESA..because thats mandatory for a 5th gen fighter), no enemy will come close....


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## kish

palash_kol said:


> No...I dont have any fifth gen aircraft right now...
> 
> What I said is that if* we would have,* then that would be great.....
> 
> Yah...We will get *PAK-FA by 2017*....
> 
> Just think if PAK-FA can carry Brahmos, metior, Python 5 and K-172(PAK-FA will surely get AESA..because thats mandatory for a 5th gen fighter), no enemy will come close....



dude .. I understood ur points but as u said " if we would have" & "pak fa by 2017 " and it will again take time to have good strength of 5th gen fighter .... 
but in 2017 we will have full strength of mki and we can make them more deadliest by adding these fire power .. 
when we talking about a 5th gen fighter no need to talk about these ++ coz they will already have them or may be more advance then what mentioned here , 
till 2017 view may change because there may be new missile system and so so ,,, 

yes i m agree with u ,, but only when we will have them or going to have them in near future ..
i would like to speculate about mki which we have right now ready to be upgraded in way our goverment and air force want.
it sound much better ,


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## palash_kol

kish said:


> dude .. I understood ur points but as u said " if we would have" & "pak fa by 2017 " and it will again take time to have good strength of 5th gen fighter ....
> but in 2017 we will have full strength of mki and we can make them more deadliest by adding these fire power ..
> when we talking about a 5th gen fighter no need to talk about these ++ coz they will already have them or may be more advance then what mentioned here ,
> till 2017 view may change because there may be new missile system and so so ,,,
> 
> yes i m agree with u ,, but only when we will have them or going to have them in near future ..
> i would like to speculate about mki which we have right now ready to be upgraded in way our goverment and air force want.
> it sound much better ,


MKI will be have Brahmos by 2013-2014...So there is no need to worry about....

But the question is will it be integrated in PAK-FA also....Since MKI can be detected more than hundred kilometers away...whereas the PAK-FA can be detected only 25-30 kilometers away.... So if PAK-FA can also carry it...There will be no match for it....

Since Brahmos is very heavy and PAK-FA will not be able to carry it under its belly...there is only option to carry it in the underwing pylons....In that case it will have to carry 2 Brahmos for balancing two wings....in total 6000kg....So there will be options of carrying only 3000-4000kgs of other weapons....

Only god knows if PAK-FA will be able to carry Brahmos......


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## kish

palash_kol said:


> MKI will be have Brahmos by 2013-2014...So there is no need to worry about....


it sounds good ..




> But the question is will it be integrated in PAK-FA also....Since MKI can be detected more than hundred kilometers away...whereas the PAK-FA can be detected only 25-30 kilometers away.... *So if PAK-FA can also carry it...There will be no match for it*....


only if it can carry underbelly ,,, pls any member provide if have some information about that .. 




> Since Brahmos is very heavy and PAK-FA will not be able to carry it under its belly...there is only option to carry it in the underwing pylons..



underwing pylon?? ... i doubt it 
and also ... any weapon on pylon make a fighter dirty [no stealthy] and i will be detected easily by radar




> Only god knows if PAK-FA will be able to carry Brahmos......



dont worry our hal and drdo person already know whether it can carry or not ...


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## sancho

Hi, Softtech, thx for your patience, but here is the promised comparison (part 1).



Softtech said:


> 2.Lower RCS, more range, more payload - how much difference? think its so less to give importance.
> But with block 2 upgraded radar has big difference in favor of SH.At any time SH will watch and track rafale better, faster and clearer



Lets start with the basic specs and see if the difference in performance and capabilities is really so less:

AB thrust - Rafale 2 x 75kN / F18SH 2 x 98kN
Empty weight - 9.5t / 13.8t
internal fuel - 4700Kg / 6530Kg
=> T/W ratio - 1.07 / 0.97 (clean config + pilot + 100&#37; internal fuel + AB thrust, I calculated them myself and not just took them from the net, because I wanted an equal base and not specs from different versions. Ratios available on the net are even better for Rafale and worse for the SH!)

Load factor - Rafale +9G/-3.2G / F18SH 7.6G
Wing load - 326 kg/m2 / 620.0 kg/m2 (lower = better)
Rate of climb - 304.8 m/s / 254 m/s
VMAX - Mach 1.8+ both
Combat range - 1852Km+ in penetration mission / 722.28Km in interdiction mission
CAP loiter time - over 3h / 2.15h
Ceiling - 16764m / 15240m
Payload - 9.5t / 8t
Weapon stations - 10 (12 possible) five of them heavy + 2 extra for pods / 11 five of them heavy, no dedicated pod station

Sources:

Aircraft Characteristics

http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/military/fa18ef/docs/EF_overview.pdf

Federation of American Scientists :: F/A-18 Hornet


As you can see, based by pure performance specs and capabilities of the fighter design itself, the Rafale beats the SH in nearly all fields, simply because the design aim was a different one. The SH is a pure carrier fighter design, meant to deliver strikes but it's A2A capabilities are dependent mainly on its techs and weapons. Rafale instead was designed to replace several different French fighters in different roles (air defense, strikes, carrier), which means it must offer different advantages for these roles too and that's why the fighter designs needed to be more balanced.

A small reminder here, according to chhindits.blogspot the RFP of the MMRCA competition *REQUIRES *a T/W ratio of 1:1 or better and it should be a 9G aircraft ! ! ! 

Chindits: MMRCA Update : F-18 Has Underpowered Engine, No One 100% Compliant, Says Report, Vendors Revise Their Prices !!

So if chhindits is right, *the SH does not fulfill these minimum performance requirements!*
The advantage of Rafales flight performance is even acknowledged by US Pilots, that faced it in exercises, here an excerpt from an aviation magazin of 2008:



> French Rafale on the Teddy" ~ The special report of Rafale M F2's performance during the JTFEX exercise, 2008.
> 
> 1. In Page 37, a photo shows a Rafale M of 12F flew with an F/A-18F from the Blacklions Squadron, the first frontline squadron of Superhornet Block II.
> 
> 
> 2. Rafale M F2 met with F/A-18E/F in several 1 v 1 BFM and 2 v 2 AA missions during the exercise. However, both sides didn't show their real and complete fighting capability to each other ~ US pilots didn't show the true capability of JHMCS + AIM-9X to French pilots, while 12F was also shy about showing the real capabilities of RBE2 radar, Spectra EWS, and FSO optronic systems.
> 
> 
> 3. A USN pilot's (Lt Mike Tremel, pilot of VFA-31 "Tomcatters") comments for Rafale M:
> 
> "A highly maneuverable fighter with an incredible capacity to point its nose in every direction in the sky."
> 
> "The French pilots seem to be happy to its flight performance and its modern cockpit design".
> 
> When asked if he would like to swap his Super hornet to a Rafale --> "No, I love my Super Bug way too much...."
> 
> 
> 4. A French pilot's (pilot of 12F) comments for F/A-18E:
> 
> "A great bombing aircraft, but not a fighter for dogfighting."
> 
> "Its acceleration capability in the high angle of incidence is not good."
> 
> "Rafale is definitely the more nimble one."



As you can see, the us pilot is impressed by the maneuverability, the flight performance and also the modern cockpit design, which leads us directly to the F18SH upgrades.



Softtech said:


> With future SH upgrade(by 2015).The gap will increase more.



Is that true? Let us look at what Boeing has proposed for the future and compare it with the Rafale!

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/TEfV7LcBvfI/AAAAAAAAK8w/MkTfQtTHliY/s1600/BOEING1.JPG


The F18SH has an edge in terms of AESA radar, which is not deniable, but on the other side it lacks in several other fields where the Rafale already offers more and the SH needs this upgrade to reduce the gap!

1) Rafale already offers an modern designed cockpit, unlike the SH that still uses even some analog displays, the SH will get this with the uprgade only!
2) Rafale already offers an integrated IRST, the SH will get this with the upgrade only!
3) Rafale already offers a good T/W ratio, the SH will get this with the upgrade only!
4 )Rafale already offers very low RCS, the F18SH is trying to reduce it by using a weapon pod, but this is useful only with added CFTs, because the pod occupies the centerline station for fuel tanks, which would reduce range even more and the SH will get this with the upgrade only!
5) Rafale already offers spherical missile/laser warning (DDM) and will get even an improved version (comparable to F35 EODAS), the SH will get this with the upgrade only!

And when will this upgrade be available? Possibly around 2015, if anybody orders and funds it, because so far it was only proposed from Boeing, but neither USN, nor the only export customer Australia has ordered, or cleared it. Rafale on the other side, will have AESA radar, a more cost-effective engine and DDM NG by 2012, when the first F3+ for the French forces will be delivered, so Rafale will be available with full techs way earlier than the SH! ...

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## sancho

... Part 2

Next point is BVR capability,true the SH has the longer range AESA radar and AIM 120, but latest fighters offers more than than radar and missile range only. Fighters like EF, or Rafale are designed with a very low RCS from the start, that's why they have big ammounts of composite, or RAM materials, ducted air intakes, scattered airframes (Rafale), semi stealth weapon stations (EF). The size difference is a point in this regard too, because it is not a heavy class fighter like some people mistakes it for. It is just in the size of an F16 as you can see on the following pics (check also post #2995 on page 200):

http://avionique.free.fr/IMG/jpg/rafale_f18.jpg

http://psk.blog.24heures.ch/media/00/02/2147014045.jpg


But just as Jha recently said too, the active radar of a fighter itself will give away the presents to some extend too and makes it easier to detect, but exactly here the Rafale shows its real advantages in BVR. Unlike the F18SH that is dependent on the active radar, or if available also the IRST on the external fuel tank, the Rafale can use radar, the integrated IRST, or the TV/Termal imager of FSO, or even the SPECTRA EWS itself to detect and track targets. Except of the radar of course, these features are totally passive and you can see these advantages even now in the older Rafale versions:



> *Excerpt of the Rafale International from 2006*
> 
> ...One of the more challenging aspects of Rafale operations is how to fully exploit its capabilities, and especially its range of passive sensors. Pilots, for example, can use its TV/thermal imaging observation system (dubbed Optronique Secteur Frontal, and similar in principle to infrared scan and track) to visually identify other aircraft at ranges of more than 50 kilometres (approx. 30 nautical miles), and transmit this and other tactical data to other aircraft using their MIDS datalink.
> 
> Another unique capability, according to Col. Fran&#231;ois Moussez, the French Air force&#8217;s Rafale program officer is that it can fire missiles at targets detected and designated by its integrated Spectra countermeasures suite, again without any need for active transmissions that can give away its position...



These advantages were also practically demonstrated in exercises like the ATLC in UAE, where Rafale gets several kills against the EF in BVR and dogfights. The Rafale also won engagements against USN fighters in BVR and impressed in the technical evaluation in Brazil, with a very low RCS as you can see in the following reports:



> *French Pilot about ATLC*
> 
> During an ATLC engagement, 2 Rafale engaged, using their whole system but simulating a weapon that requires taking more risk than normal, 4 Eurofighter. The 2 Rafale killed the 4 Typhoon which used all their normal capacities, without loss.
> The rules of engagement were "beyond visual range".
> 
> In BVR air combat (beyond visual range, ie at ranges of several dozens of kilometers), the Rafale system provides synthetic information coming from multiple sensors. This information is therefore more accurate. We can do without 1 or 2 sensors during a whole combat while remaining extremely dangerous for the enemy. This gives us access to new tactics of particular interest.



RING - Capitaine Romain, pilote de Rafale en Afghanistan




> *Brazilian news report*
> 
> The divergence of information led to the FAB mark this item Gripen in yellow attention. The F-18 Blue won this variable, but reddened under "radar-signature ', which means tracking by enemy radar. The Rafale, according to official figures, is more "invisible" among competitors (blue = good, yellow = average, red = bad).
> 
> In a recent simulated exercise with the US Navy, the French jets "downed" six F-18 and lost only two aircrafts.The American pilots said they could only see the Rafale on the radar when it was too late to react.



ISTO&#201; Independente - Economia & Neg&#243;cios


As you can see, although the EF and the SH had superior radars, as well as more missile range, the Rafale (even outnumbered) was able to win these combats. The Rafale F3+ that is offered in MMRCA will even have more detection features and also the more capable BVR missiles, so it will be even better than in these exercises, especially compared to the SH.

Now lets compare the features mentioned above against a possible opponents of IAF, PAFs new F16 B52:

F18SH vs F16 B52

- in BVR the SH has longer range radar, but bigger RCS and the same AIM 120
- in WVR the SH is less maneuverable and has the same JHMCS + AIM 9 combo like PAF has


Rafale F3+ vs F16 B52

- in BVR it has longer range radar, a lower RCS, longer range missile and long range passive detection capabilities
- in WVR it is more maneuverable, but has no HMS so far (see "Features that requires further fundings" below)

Against new J10Bs and J11Bs the differences could be even more important, because they will have the numerical superiority. 


Strike capabilities

The SH is a proven stike fighter and points with more variety and cost-effective weapons, as well as a good EWS. 
The Rafale points with more payload, range, beeing less detectable and proved excellent in this role in combination with the AASM (or Hammer as its new name is) and SPECTRA EWS. During Red Flag it fulfilled all strike missions without beeing killed from ground targets a single time, in ATLC 2 Rafales impressed with shooting down:

10 incoming hostile fighters while dropping six AASM on 6 different land targets 40 km far, everything without leaving their CAP racetrack (it is rumored that Rafale proved this during the trials in India too!).

Even I say that the Rafale is close second here only, manly because less variety of weapons, but for possible long range strikes against targets in China, I would prefer Rafale with Scalp. 

The SH has a dedicated electronic attack version (Growler), but it is doubtful that IAF will get these, especially not without signing CISOMA, or similar contracts. On the other hand the Rafale has a dedicated nuclear strike version, which is an interesting point, because recent reports claims that the Strategic Forces Command is looking to procure 40 fighters for two dedicated strategic strike squadrons:

http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/7004/unrafaleaustandardf3emp.jpg

Livefist - Indian Defence & Aerospace: PTI: India's Joint Nuclear Command Wants 40 Nuclear Strike Jets


Other version and capabilities

Both are available as carrier fighters, can be used for inflight refueling and in recon roles:

http://www.strategypage.com/gallery/images/f_18_tanker.jpg

http://www.l-3com.com/CS-East/images/starnimitz.jpg

http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/1504/ravito.jpg

http://defense-update.com/images_large3/recong_aeros_rafale.jpg


Features that requires further fundings

Boeing propsed the new upgrade, but so far it is not know who will fund it, USN is looking for a more cost-effective engine, but not for higher thrust and that's why the EPE engine is offered for foreign customers mainly. Till USN, or another operator clears the upgrade, it will remain uncertain. 

Dassault has developed and tested CFTs for the Rafale, but French gov didn't fund it and waiting for an export customer too, same goes for a higher thrust M88-3 engine, or the Kaveri-Snecma integration. They also tested the some HMDs (including Topsight prototypes) but never integrated one, 


Costs, orders and upgrade potential

Going by Brazilian reports, F18 SH block 2 costs $55 million flyaway, the Rafale F3+ $78 million, with more than 400 F18SHs on order and around 180 Rafales. Upgrade potential good for both, because USN and French forces will use them for a long time, although the Rafale is on a higher tech level now, because it is a new developed fighter, but the upgrade costs should be cheaper for the SH. 


The offers 

F18SH offers possible commonality to LCA MK2 with GE 414 engine, outsourcing parts of the production to India, political advantages and most likely higher offsets.

Rafale offers common weapons and already placed service and supply chains with Mirage 2000s, the integration of Kaveri - Snecma engine, full ToT of the AESA radar + source codes, no restrictions, integration of Indian weapons, to go beyond buyer seller relationship (although it's not clear what this exactly means). Early delivery of 40 Rafales if we want and France is a sanction prove, reliable partner.


So lets sum it up!

Rafale wins at A2A performance and is close second in A2G, is on a higher tech level, offers dedicated versions for the nuclear as well as carrier role and offers the clearly better deal with customisation, more independence and commonality to existing IAF fleet.
The F18SH is a proven and cost-effective fighter, with good political advantages, but is also a re-design of an older fighter and will be really comparable with the Block 3 upgrade only. The spares, weapons and maintenance must be build up completelly new and the pilot training should be more difficult to.

All in all the Rafale offers clearly more advantages if we are ready to pay for it, offers a good performance in all roles and exactly between LCA and Rafale (in weight, size and performance) be it for IAF, or IN. If our main aim is political advantages, as well as a cost-effective strike fighter and the restrictions are not a problem, the SH will server good too.

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## Just Yash

to Sancho...

great effort my friend but.....

in this compitition we required 

1) *Great* Air to ground fighter.

and

2) *Good* Air to air fighter( As we already have Su-30mki and in near future PAKFA)

So.. i think F-18 Fits very well.

Feel free to disagree.

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## luckyyy

Just Yash said:


> to Sancho...
> 
> great effort my friend but.....
> 
> in this compitition we required
> 
> 1) *Great* Air to ground fighter.
> 
> and
> 
> 2) *Good* Air to air fighter( As we already have Su-30mki and in near future PAKFA)
> 
> So.. i think F-18 Fits very well.
> 
> Feel free to disagree.



neither Air to ground nor Air to air fighter , mmrca is all about getting a aircraft best equipped to counter incoming hostle cruse missiles..

and yes ..F-18 Fits very well.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/75339-mmrca-deal-focus-air-defence.html


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## kingdurgaking

@Sancho... You have any information on what is offered to MMRCA in terms of F18? If requirement is 9g , T/W to have 1:1 and IRST etc etc then Boeing cannot give a product which will be not satisfying these requirement right? Although i am not supporting Boeing here... This is just a straight question.... If that is the requirement then Boeing has to upgrade and provide the same to IAF without any extra cost...


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## kingdurgaking

Just Yash said:


> to Sancho...
> 
> great effort my friend but.....
> 
> in this compitition we required
> 
> 1) *Great* Air to ground fighter.
> 
> and
> 
> 2) *Good* Air to air fighter( As we already have Su-30mki and in near future PAKFA)
> 
> So.. i think F-18 Fits very well.
> 
> Feel free to disagree.



I am really sorry here... I cant agree with anyones comment on what is required by IAF.. so far IAF hasnt rejected any Fighters and has given the decision in to the hands of babus... Which means IAF is not looking for a top notch fighter but a gap filling one... A good A2A and good A2G... They dont have any doctrines on MMRCA(which is the real problem of IAF in giving the choice from there end).. doctrines will be created only if they know which is wining.. As far as i know.. IAF counts on 3 aircrafts in the coming decade
1)MKI
2)Tejas/MMRCA
3)FGFA/AMCA

MMRCA will be used to tap political deals and Latest Technology requirements at the max... 

Feel free to disagree...

If A2G with good A2A is the requirement ... IAF choice will be *Mirage only*.. Right now all these lower end responsibilities of Mirages are transferred into the hands of Tejas-2.. while the higher end will be given to the current Beast and FGFA..

So logical choice cost effective and gap filling will go to Griphen.. But political decision will push any one mostly F-18


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## kish

Just Yash said:


> to Sancho...
> 
> great effort my friend but.....
> 
> in this compitition we required
> 
> 1) *Great* Air to ground fighter.
> 
> and
> 
> 2) *Good* Air to air fighter( As we already have Su-30mki and in near future PAKFA)
> 
> So.. i think F-18 Fits very well.
> 
> Feel free to disagree.





yash 
it's MMRCA - MEDIUM *MULTI ROLE* COMBAT AIRCRAFT 
and sancho alredy explain very well that rafale is very battter in A2A from SH and much better in A2G than EF 
all these three ac are very impressive but rafale is truly mult role fighter as per now,,
who know d future ,, but right now rafale sounds good for IAF but we have to pay lil more money 
but again it will save our money as we are already operating french fighter from more than 2 decade which SH and EF do not provide


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## jha

kish said:


> yash
> it's MMRCA - MEDIUM *MULTI ROLE* COMBAT AIRCRAFT
> and sancho alredy explain very well that rafale is very battter in A2A from SH and much better in A2G than EF
> all these three ac are very impressive but rafale is truly mult role fighter as per now,,
> who know d future ,, but right now rafale sounds good for IAF but we have to pay lil more money
> but again it will save our money as we are already operating french fighter from more than 2 decade which SH and EF do not provide



Only problem for people with French fries is that they demand hefty sum for upgrades...
(However one inside gossip is that we are upgrading Mirages to make it much more capable than what is known to public..)..

I just want to see Su-30 firing METEOR whichever be the MRCA ..


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## MAFIAN GOD

WHAT DO YOU GUYS THINK?----WE ARE UPGRADING MIRAGE-2000.
IS IT A +VE OR -VE SIGN FOR RAFALE?


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## kish

jha said:


> Only problem for people with French fries is that they demand hefty sum for upgrades...
> (However one inside gossip is that we are upgrading Mirages to make it much more capable than what is known to public..)..
> 
> I just want to see Su-30 firing METEOR whichever be the MRCA ..



but i think if we are paying so much for that upgrade then that money will really worth us 
else we can also do same upgrade with Israel help in half price


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## gubbi

kish said:


> rafale is very battter in A2A from SH and much better in A2G than EF


A little correction here:
Superbug is basically employed in A2G role while EF was designed as an A2A fighter.


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## kish

gubbi said:


> A little correction here:
> Superbug is basically employed in A2G role while EF was designed as an A2A fighter.



yes you are right

but we need a multirole fighter 

which u think have creditable performance in both A2A & A2G 

all fighter are very impressive and each have there unique advantages ..
..
now its time for GOI & IAF .. what they it matter more ..
but i love rafale .. [but dont hate anyone]





MAFIAN GOD said:


> WHAT DO YOU GUYS THINK?----WE ARE UPGRADING MIRAGE-2000.
> IS IT A +VE OR -VE SIGN FOR RAFALE?




who know what GOI is thinking ????


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## 1000VA

*Exercise Gives India Closer Look at U.K. Typhoons - Defense News*

NEW DELHI - India and the United Kingdom began joint air exercises in the Indian state of West Bengal on Oct. 20. Exercise Indradhanush, which concludes Nov. 3, will see the Indian airborne early warning and control system (AWACS) aircraft participate for the first time in any joint operation.

Along with its E-3D sentry AWACS and VC-10 midair refuelers, the U.K. Royal Air Force is fielding the Eurofighter Typhoon, which is competing for the Indian Air Force's $10 billion Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft. The exercise marks the first time that the Indian Air Force has engaged a Typhoon and will help the service evaluate the European combat aircraft, an Indian Air Force official said.
Related Topics

The Indian Air Force is fielding its Russian-built Su-30MKI and MiG-27 and French-built Mirage 2000-H aircraft.

The joint air exercises will include operations against each other and combined maneuvers to help the pilots improve their skills.

The emphasis will be on exposing the controllers of AWACS aircraft to large-scale engagements and protection of high-value aerial assets in addition to management of logistical needs, the Indian Air Force official said.


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## jha

kish said:


> but i think if we are paying so much for that upgrade then that money will really worth us
> else *we can also do same upgrade with Israel help in half price*



NO We CANT...Israel cant upgrade M2K to the level which we want it to..Not everything what goes on is available in public...

If you remember we had tweaked M2K during kargil to such a level that it would have been a huge violation of copyright agreements..But did you hear anything regarding this in public forums.Our relationship with France is much deeper than what it seems..


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## dbc

sancho said:


> Hi, Softtech, thx for your patience, but here is the promised comparison (part 1).
> 
> 
> 
> Lets start with the basic specs and see if the difference in performance and capabilities is really so less:
> 
> AB thrust - Rafale 2 x 75kN / F18SH 2 x 98kN
> Empty weight - 9.5t / 13.8t
> internal fuel - 4700Kg / 6530Kg
> => T/W ratio - 1.07 / 0.97 (clean config + pilot + 100% internal fuel + AB thrust, I calculated them myself and not just took them from the net, because I wanted an equal base and not specs from different versions. Ratios available on the net are even better for Rafale and worse for the SH!)



You wasted your time, the thrust figures you quoted are measured engine performance on a test rack at sea level. 







How this thrust translates to superior acceleration in the air depends on various factors, these are:

Aerodynamic design,air intake efficiency in varying flight regimes such as level flight,subsonic, supersonic or at high AoA, compressor performance,temperature,altitude and exhaust design.

Poor design is known to result in loss of thrust sometimes as high as 40% loss. The point I'm trying to make is the thrust figures that you have so painstakingly researched does not tell us anything about the aircraft's real performance where it matters up in the air .. 

Notice I haven't mentioned weight yet!

*According to NASA..*



> First, the thrust from the propulsion system must balance the drag of the airplane when the airplane is cruising. And second, the *thrust from the propulsion system must exceed the drag of the airplane for the airplane to accelerate.* In fact, the greater the difference between the thrust and the drag, called the excess thrust, the faster the airplane will accelerate.



Beginner's Guide to Propulsion

..and this is the second time I've told you that thrust to weight ratio greater than one helps the aircraft climb faster (vertical acceleration).

All dog fights spiral downwards toward the hard deck (ground). The benefit of superior climb rates in close combat is negligible. What matters is acceleration and acceleration = thrust - drag.

Concluding the Rafale is better simply because you claim it has higher T/W ratio is wrong since you don't know how aerodynamically efficient the Rafale design is (drag) nor do you know a thing about the efficiency of the air intakes.


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## dbc

sancho said:


> ... Part 2
> 
> Next point is BVR capability,true the SH has the longer range AESA radar and AIM 120, but latest fighters offers more than than radar and missile range only. Fighters like EF, or Rafale are designed with a very low RCS from the start, that's why they have big ammounts of composite, or RAM materials, ducted air intakes, scattered airframes (Rafale), semi stealth weapon stations (EF). The size difference is a point in this regard too, because it is not a heavy class fighter like some people mistakes it for. It is just in the size of an F16 as you can see on the following pics (check also post #2995 on page 200):
> 
> http://avionique.free.fr/IMG/jpg/rafale_f18.jpg
> 
> http://psk.blog.24heures.ch/media/00/02/2147014045.jpg
> 
> 
> But just as Jha recently said too, the active radar of a fighter itself will give away the presents to some extend too and makes it easier to detect, but exactly here the Rafale shows its real advantages in BVR. Unlike the F18SH that is dependent on the active radar, or if available also the IRST on the external fuel tank, the Rafale can use radar, the integrated IRST, or the TV/Termal imager of FSO, or even the SPECTRA EWS itself to detect and track targets. Except of the radar of course, these features are totally passive and you can see these advantages even now in the older Rafale versions:



Your claim of lower RCS for the Rafale is dubious, close coupled canards, vertical stabilizer and refueling probe are all RCS offenders.
By your logic Rafale RCS should be lower than the B2, since the B2 is much larger. We all know that is not the case... 

IRST and OSF does not provide range or velocity, again your claim of passive attack is dubious. The Rafale's OSF TV device is slaved to the radar and serves in identification of target. From your own source, it clearly states both IRST and OSF _"*visually identify* other aircraft at ranges of more than 50 kilometres (approx. 30 nautical miles)"_ 



> Excerpt of the Rafale International from 2006
> 
> ...One of the more challenging aspects of Rafale operations is how to fully exploit its capabilities, and especially its range of passive sensors. Pilots, for example, can use its TV/thermal imaging observation system (dubbed Optronique Secteur Frontal, and similar in principle to infrared scan and track) to *visually identify* other aircraft at ranges of more than 50 kilometres (approx. 30 nautical miles), and transmit this and other tactical data to other aircraft using their MIDS datalink.
> 
> Another unique capability, according to Col. François Moussez, the French Air forces Rafale program officer is that it can fire missiles at targets detected and designated by its integrated Spectra countermeasures suite, again without any need for active transmissions that can give away its position...



..now Spectra ability to attack targets, true Spectra can detect a target. But can it provide range and velocity of the target? Can it probe the target to confirm friend or foe? How can you launch a BVR missile without range, heading and velocity data? For all this you need a radar, so in theory Spectra can fire a missile in the general direction of a perceived threat - true but Spectra can only provide heading and without range,velocity and IFF probe you can't be sure if you launched your missile at a cell phone tower a Doppler weather radar or a hostile.


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## sancho

Just Yash said:


> to Sancho...
> 
> great effort my friend but.....
> 
> in this compitition we required
> 
> 1) *Great* Air to ground fighter.
> 
> and
> 
> 2) *Good* Air to air fighter( As we already have Su-30mki and in near future PAKFA)
> 
> So.. i think F-18 Fits very well.
> 
> Feel free to disagree.



Thx Yash, Rafale in strike role is an excellent fighter too, but has not the variety of the US weapon pack of course, but with beeing low detectable and the AASM/Hammer + Scalp combo that our upgraded Mirage fighters hopefully will get too, it has very good weapons too.
The F18SH in A2A is not bad, but I don't think it will be as good as the Eurocanards in A2A, actually even the F16IN should be better.



kingdurgaking said:


> @Sancho... You have any information on what is offered to MMRCA in terms of F18? If requirement is 9g , T/W to have 1:1 and IRST etc etc then Boeing cannot give a product which will be not satisfying these requirement right? Although i am not supporting Boeing here... This is just a straight question.... If that is the requirement then Boeing has to upgrade and provide the same to IAF without any extra cost...



As I said, that's what the report said, maybe the shortlistings will make things clearer.


----------



## sancho

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Concluding the Rafale is better simply because you claim it has higher T/W ratio is wrong since you don't know how aerodynamically efficient the Rafale design is (drag) nor do you know a thing about the efficiency of the air intakes.



Never did that, I provided, that shows it and even sources where even US pilots acknowledging Rafales advantages in that field. Same goes for US F16 pilots btw, that were fielded against Rafale in WVR combats before Red Flag. There are serveral reports about it's very good performance, but you keep denying it and claiming about less drag of the SH. However, besides your usual quotes, I think it's on you to provide a source that Rafale is inferior to SH, or at least that the SH has less drag as you claim and that's why is superior to Rafale.



Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Your claim of lower RCS for the Rafale is dubious, close coupled canards, vertical stabilizer and refueling probe are all RCS offenders.
> By your logic Rafale RCS should be lower than the B2, since the B2 is much larger. We all know that is not the case...



Same for this claim, I backed my points with clear sources, but didn't saw anything else than doubts from you. It's ok if you have doubts, but you still have to proof that it has not a low RCS.
Btw, I never stated a number for the RCS, so how can you compare it to B2 than?




Death.By.Chocolate said:


> IRST and OSF does not provide range or velocity, again your claim of passive attack is dubious. The Rafale's OSF TV device is slaved to the radar and serves in identification of target. From your own source, it clearly states both IRST and OSF _"*visually identify* other aircraft at ranges of more than 50 kilometres (approx. 30 nautical miles)"_






> *TECHNICAL CHARACTERISTICS*
> 
> IRST channel:
> - Automatic Search and Track
> - Air-to-Air and Air-to-Surface modes
> - Infrared imagery
> 
> Identification channel:
> - Detection *and tracking*
> - Reconnaissance and identification
> - Eye-safe laser range finding
> - TV imagery



http://www.thalesgroup.com/assets/0/93/238/b1572ced-d842-410a-ad3b-b569dcb6d5fc.pdf?LangType=2057




Death.By.Chocolate said:


> ..now Spectra ability to attack targets, true Spectra can detect a target. But can it provide range and velocity of the target? Can it probe the target to confirm friend or foe? How can you launch a BVR missile without range, heading and velocity data? For all this you need a radar, so in theory Spectra can fire a missile in the general direction of a perceived threat - true but Spectra can only provide heading and without range,velocity and IFF probe you can't be sure if you launched your missile at a cell phone tower a Doppler weather radar or a hostile.



It was practically shown during ATLC, so again you can have your doubts and call it dubious, but that doesn't proof it right.


----------



## luckyyy

pakistan won't take a $100ml risk to send their F-16 on a attack mission , they will better choose a $1ml missiles...

best A2A & A2G fighter winning the mmrca is not the IAF required....


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## soaringphnx

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> All dog fights spiral downwards toward the hard deck (ground). The benefit of superior climb rates in close combat is negligible. What matters is acceleration and acceleration = thrust - drag.



Wrong... Some WVR engagements start with a high speed head-on pass. Immediately after the 'merge', a pilot can either stay and fight or simply continue straight ahead and try to 'bug out'. IF the pilot decides to stay and fight, he would try to maneuver his aircraft behind his opponent (the vulnerable 6 o'clock position). As both the aircraft turn into each other, it results in a turning fight where each aircraft turns as hard as possible to get behind the other. The sustained turn causes both the aircraft to bleed airspeed and hence altitude. THAT IS WHY SUCH TURNING FIGHTS SPIRAL TOWARDS THE DECK!! *The key factor here is maneuverability, not acceleration*. If an aircraft manages to reach the vulnerable 6 o'clock position of the other, then it has an advantage. I fail to see how superior acceleration helps in this type of turning fights (unless you want to 'bug-out'). 

Moreover, if you remember,

Force = mass x acceleration​
So, for good acceleration, we need maximum force/thrust and minimum weight. In other words, we need a high thrust to weight ratio. So having a higher thrust does not guarantee that the aircraft has more acceleration. Here, the Rafale has a clear advantage as it has a higher thrust to weight ratio.

I disagree that superior climb rates are not beneficial in a dogfight. Altitude is always a great advantage in a dogfight as it gives the pilot a perched position above the battlefield and it can be easily converted to airspeed by simply diving on their opponent or by using maneuvers such as a split-S which also helps the pilot to reverse his direction of motion and give him a better position. Having a superior climb rate can allow a pilot to gain altitude more quickly which not only helps in the dogfight, but also helps him to 'bug-out'.

In a dogfight, every advantage counts - and that includes maneuverability, acceleration, rate of climb, stall speed, weapons available, active and passive countermeasures, radar, IRST, low RCS and even the range (which means extended time on station). If acceleration alone was the deciding factor in a dogfight like you, say, then interceptors like the MiG-25/31 should be the best dogfighters, but we all know that is not the case.


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## soaringphnx

luckyyy said:


> pakistan won't take a $100ml risk to send their F-16 on a attack mission , they will better choose a $1ml missiles...
> 
> best A2A & A2G fighter winning the mmrca is not the IAF required....



Do you really think that all Indian military purchases and strategies are formulated keeping only Pakistan in mind? There are much bigger players in our neighborhood.


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## luckyyy

soaringphnx said:


> Do you really think that all Indian military purchases and strategies are formulated keeping only Pakistan in mind? There are much bigger players in our neighborhood.



china has more missiles then pakistan....


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## ganimi kawa

luckyyy said:


> *pakistan won't take a $100ml risk to send their F-16 on a attack mission , they will better choose a $1ml missiles...*
> 
> best A2A & A2G fighter winning the mmrca is not the IAF required....



1.Pakistan does not have anything like 2 arty corps of China and India is not Iraq to collapse under a barrage of TLAMs. 

2. Consider the no. of bases on Indian side, the dispersed deployment followed in wartime, strategic depth that India has.

3. If ballistic missiles are used, escalation of the conflict to a nuke war is a distinct possibility.

4. Indian air defences are ramping up, even Akash has anti cruise missile ability, no need to talk about the rest.

5. Missiles will be a two way traffic.




> best A2A & A2G fighter winning the mmrca is not the IAF required



You may be right on this count. India may go for L1 satisfying the ASR, just not for the reasons you mentioned.


@ Sancho, great effort ,man!

I still think that the rafale design was not designed with LO as a primary objective. Too many flares fron RCS point of view. Especially with weapons load I'm still very skeptical about whether it'll have low enough RCS to make an impact vis a vis SH.

Though, the active cancellation tech, if true to it's claims could be a game changer.

P.S. Do you have any info on the Carbone pod, it's a pity if cancelled. That could have been another game changer for Rafale.

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## dbc

soaringphnx said:


> Force = mass x acceleration​
> So, for good acceleration, we need maximum force/thrust and minimum weight. In other words, we need a high thrust to weight ratio. So having a higher thrust does not guarantee that the aircraft has more acceleration. Here, the Rafale has a clear advantage as it has a higher thrust to weight ratio.



You've ignored an important element of flight and that is lift. The below graphic explains the basic principles of flight. 






For the sake of simplicity lets assume straight level flight. Four forces act upon an aircraft in flight, thrust is balanced by drag and weight by lift produced by the wing. The aircraft will move in the direction of greater imbalance. If weight is greater than the lift produced by the wings the aircraft will descend, if drag is greater than thrust the aircraft will not move forward as a consequence the wing will cease to provide lift and the aircraft will descend.


In the vertical (the aircraft is climbing vertically) the aircraft becomes a rocket the wing does not produce lift, so both the weight and drag must be overcome by engine thrust. Here thrust to weight ratio > 1 will allow the engine to propel the aircraft by overcoming the force of gravity and drag.

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## SQ8

soaringphnx said:


> ...The key factor here is maneuverability, not acceleration[/COLOR][/B]. .



Maneuverability will only get you so far, the current crop of 5th gen heatseekers ensures that even a quick snapshot gets a kill.
The need to come to 6'0'clock is gone. 
Most engagements of the future will be slash and dash.. fire a missile.. and get out of there before somebody else takes a shot at you.

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## SpArK




----------



## SpArK

*AESA of the F-16IN..

A nice informational video of AESA radars in general.​*

YouTube - AESA Radar Capabilities


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## rockstarIN

*j) It is reportedly the only aircraft to have cleared the Leh trails..*

Any further news about it?


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## SpArK

rockstar said:


> *j) It is reportedly the only aircraft to have cleared the Leh trails..*
> 
> Any further news about it?



Livefist - Indian Defence & Aerospace: FLASH! Gripen Demo Clears Leh Trials!

Livefist - Indian Defence & Aerospace: Four MMRCA Contenders Fail Leh Trials!


----------



## Dash

Guys, we are all forgetting one thing here...Not you Sancho-).

the competition is named medium* "Multirole"* combat aircraft.

Let me stress on that multirole part....you will come to know what is the base requirement of IAF. 

1.An aircraft which will perform all roles of a fighter. 
2.A fighter which will eliminate buying and maintain several different types of aircraft in our inventory, like interceptors, point defence fighters, deep strike fighters and bombers.

My analysis on this and a small reason for myself to see which fighter would be running at the front.
To point number 1 - Lets see which are the multirole fighters we have in MRCA
a. Rafale (design itself is multirole) 
b. F-18 (designed as a carrier fighter and largly an A2G fighter) 
c. EFT - "Designed" as Air superiority fighter
d. F-16- Multirole fighter and a good one but aging, 80s airframe design and "Operated by adversaries"
e. Gripen - good multirole fighter, common understanding is its a cheap fighter but not a very cheap fighter compared to f-18,f-16 too....but good multirole fighter.

So we have here multirole fighters left out from the above analysis is Rafale and Gripen and not F-18.
Now let me remind you..is GE-F414 engine has given F-18 a better chance to win this ccompetition, equal chances are also for Gripen, and its a better multirole fighter than F-18, with better T/W, supercruise, which the F-18 doesnt have, and *Meteor*....supercruise and meteor are 2 big plus points. mostly supercruise coz that saves a "LOT" of fuel giving more time to pilots and airforce to TRAIN and OPERATE and do survellience.

So I would say, Gripen could be ahead of F-18 in this competion.

Coming to Rafale - It has good A2A capability, good A2G with Spectra EWS and some reports suggest that Rafale supercruises but not yet officialy acknowledged. However this is a fighter where upgrades are lined up. though a little underpowered by 2 75 ton engines but it has maintained better T/W ratio, so being underpowred doesnt matter.

On top of that, IAF has ruled out any linkage of LCA's engine selection to MRCA so Rafale could be running itself.

Now for an example if buying Fighter A, whicch couldd be expensive, but we can replacee all of our fighters, where we spend $billions every year on maintainance, parts problems, flight hours with pilot deaths, gives a logical reason to IAF and MOD to buy fighter A.

and lets say by buying Fighter B, if IAF can only replace 50% of its current fleet, then even though its cheap its not ideal. and Eurofighter does just that IAF!!!. 

and Rafale and Gripen.........they just do the opposite to what EFT does. though one is expensive and other one is cheap, but they can replace all the fighters we have now except Sukhois and Mirages, by being multirole.


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## foxbat

^ and dont forget that Rafale is the next gen of Mirage 2000, which was the original choice of the IAF for which this MRCA deal was initiated..


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## luckyyy

...................................................................................................


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## Dash

Luckyy - I dont understand as to where this theory is coming from and why the website has written something like this...

before I could post my comments...

Is there anyone here who belives this?



> IAF looking for an aircratf which can act as a anti missile battery situated in air to kill the incoming cruse missiles ...



Anyone who has some info on this?


----------



## soaringphnx

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> You've ignored an important element of flight and that is lift. The below graphic explains the basic principles of flight.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For the sake of simplicity lets assume straight level flight. Four forces act upon an aircraft in flight, thrust is balanced by drag and weight by lift produced by the wing. The aircraft will move in the direction of greater imbalance. If weight is greater than the lift produced by the wings the aircraft will descend, if drag is greater than thrust the aircraft will not move forward as a consequence the wing will cease to provide lift and the aircraft will descend.
> 
> 
> In the vertical (the aircraft is climbing vertically) the aircraft becomes a rocket the wing does not produce lift, so both the weight and drag must be overcome by engine thrust. Here thrust to weight ratio > 1 will allow the engine to propel the aircraft by overcoming the force of gravity and drag.



It's true I forgot to mention drag, but all aircraft are affected (though not equally) by this. However, I fail to understand why you are deviating the discussion to lift. So your point is the F-18SH can go up like a rocket and the Rafale can't??


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## indushek

Dash said:


> Luckyy - I dont understand as to where this theory is coming from and why the website has written something like this...
> 
> before I could post my comments...
> 
> Is there anyone here who belives this?
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone who has some info on this?



May be luckky has posted an over hyped assessment but i think he has a point there u know. Aesa radar is something we would love to get our hands on. I know the discussions about American strings etc but i think may be the Americans can get this u know. May be i could be wrong. Who knows??


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## soaringphnx

santro said:


> Maneuverability will only get you so far, the current crop of 5th gen heatseekers ensures that even a quick snapshot gets a kill.
> The need to come to 6'0'clock is gone.
> Most engagements of the future will be slash and dash.. fire a missile.. and get out of there before somebody else takes a shot at you.



I was not referring to air-to-air engagements in general. I only posted that because DBC said thrust-to-weight weight ratio was not important in a dogfight and acceleration is the deciding factor in "*all dogfights*". I just said maneuverability is a key factor in turning fights - I didn't even say all dogfights because there are other ways to dogfight like a rolling scissors, a climbing fight, in fact there are almost limitless dogfight scenarios. Moreover, MRCA will not be 5th gen, so there is no need of mentioning them here.


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## kish

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> You've ignored an important element of flight and that is lift. The below graphic explains the basic principles of flight.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For the sake of simplicity lets assume straight level flight. Four forces act upon an aircraft in flight, thrust is balanced by drag and weight by lift produced by the wing. The aircraft will move in the direction of greater imbalance. If weight is greater than the lift produced by the wings the aircraft will descend, if drag is greater than thrust the aircraft will not move forward as a consequence the wing will cease to provide lift and the aircraft will descend.
> 
> 
> In the vertical (the aircraft is climbing vertically) the aircraft becomes a rocket the wing does not produce lift, so both the weight and drag must be overcome by engine thrust. Here thrust to weight ratio > 1 will allow the engine to propel the aircraft by overcoming the force of gravity and drag.




i dont know much about aerodynamic 
but these are 4 forces 


weight - > lower will be better 
thrust - > more will be better

now i will count lift and drag
does it is a natural force, [here i mean it depend on other forces]
if i m not wrong ... lift depend on these factor 
1- design of aircraft - (like canard, wing design and other aerodynamics factor)


2- thrust - more will be better ...( now for two same aircraft more thrust more lift also more resistance)


3 weight - lower will be better .. lower the weigh better lift and other resistive force will b


now here we see again aircraft performance depend on 

design
thrust 
weight

by d way DBC .. ur link a bout NASA was very informative

not much on lift and drag (as these factor exist and depend only on these three factor)


avionics is a other important part and no one cant neglect it .. can any one compare rafale and SH and Growler


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## softtec

*Hi Sancho..Thanks for such a big effort and research u made.*

A very good analysis.I have actually knew and agreed almost everything in specifications u mentioned.But u *missed *some of my basic points fully.I have not compare both spec by spec.But what will be the perfect for indian MMRCA selection(looking for the money and time constraint also).

I would like to say I like Rafale so much(because its really good in all areas).*Given a chance* I would like Rafale for MMRCA with SH upgraded radars and engines!!

Here are my comments :

*1)*As u also mentioned in *A to G *SH is the best and proven and Rafale is the nearest.As u also know IAF looking to use MMRCA for more of strike fighter role.*Leaving aside PAK-FA and mki to A to A role*.So it should be the most important factor for MMRCA selection.

*2) *Rafale with its greater TW ratio has greater aero-dynamic performance.It will have *advantage in wvr over SH* surely.But look ..IAF not facing Rafale or typhoon.Let the mki and pak-fa handle it.

*3)*For *VBR *SH will have (at least for coming decade) advantage over Rafale.why? I dont know from where u got SH RCS figure. Everywhere I read, SH has lesser RCS.It will be very hard to say who has lesser RCS Rafale or SH(F16 has bigger RCS).Even if Rafale has lesser RCS then how much?..It will be very close to ignore.But with upgraded features SH will catch or surpass Rafale surely. 

Now see..*How much advantage the upgraded SH radar over Rafale radar*.I think its much. Here comes the catch..u have almost *near RCS figure* but *big difference in radar capability*.You know who will be winning(we can use logic rather than looking for publicity articles).

*4)* Now as u know SH is cheaper with limited(as much IAF wants) TOT.The already costlier Rafale will cost more with source codes. Do we need source code??Do you know why would IAF need source code spending extra money?

IAF not looking for source code to develop its own radar.Neither france will give us anything core codes to replicate.Parallel process going on for this.

*Unlike costlier Rafale armaments, IAF will get all types of arms from US itself.*Why they would want HAL to master the complex codes and makes mistakes instead of asking the Boeing itself?

*Now this is more important:*
*5)*We need to make it sure all MMRCA should be delivered *in time(by 2020) and in the same price*.Unfortunately for me France has lost the credibility for handling big orders for both of these terms.Who will take responsibility if we have to pay more for already costlier Rafale ? What about time?Boeing and all US vendors with their work experience of handling huge orders smoothly will be *miles ahead(I mean it)* of already low credibility france vendors handling limited Rafale production.This is the most crucial.

And IAF wouldn't like next upgrade of MMRCA would cost more than its 5th gen fighters.

I think for all these big advantages *we can select SH for MMRCA* and let Rafale *stay superior in certain A to A areas*.For me *SH is more than sufficient in asian environment*.Now let them come *faster*...

Reactions: Like Like:
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## rockstarIN

The only and most critical disadvantage of SH is it is American.

Are we big enough to make this dis advantage to an advantage in the coming "Asia century"?


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## kingdurgaking

softtec said:


> *1)*As u also mentioned in *A to G *SH is the best and proven and Rafale is the nearest.As u also know IAF looking to use MMRCA for more of strike fighter role.*Leaving aside PAK-FA and mki to A to A role*.So it should be the most important factor for MMRCA selection.




I could accept everything .. except the above..In reality IAF doesnt know where to put the MMRCA ... If you clearly see the upgrades going on (Jaguar, Mig 27, Mirage and Mig29 SMT) all are getting there life extended for a decade and half.. And Jaguar and Mig27 are purely ground attack aircraft.. While Mirage can supplement them...
As of now IAF doesnt have any doctrine setup for MMRCA and they will create the doctrine once our Babus select it.. Secondly IAF has left the fate of MMRCA to babus as IAF haven't given
there recommendation as it happened to other deals like Refuller,Transport etc ...you see there is a mix of twin and single engine in the contest which is very weird because of lack of clarity... Thirdly they are counting on Tejas-2.. There is a clause in MMRCA which clearly states an additional order above 126.. Mostly it is because Tejas-2 doesnt make out in time... So every one can sit back and relax on predicting what IAF wants.....
Meanwhile in a decade and half probability of AMCA coming into Picture is more probable... while FGFA will be in induction stage..

MMRCA is mainly for political drama to secure our Objectives.. so you can easily guess who will be the winner..


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## softtec

kingdurgaking said:


> I could accept everything .. except the above..*In reality IAF doesnt know where to put the MMRCA* ... If you clearly see the upgrades going on (Jaguar, Mig 27, Mirage and Mig29 SMT) all are getting there life extended for a decade and half.. And Jaguar and Mig27 are purely ground attack aircraft.. While Mirage can supplement them...
> As of now IAF doesnt have any doctrine setup for MMRCA and they will create the doctrine once our Babus select it.. Secondly IAF has left the fate of MMRCA to babus as IAF haven't given
> there recommendation as it happened to other deals like Refuller,Transport etc ...you see there is a mix of twin and single engine in the contest which is very weird because of lack of clarity... Thirdly they are counting on Tejas-2.. There is a clause in MMRCA which clearly states an additional order above 126.. Mostly it is because Tejas-2 doesnt make out in time... So every one can sit back and relax on predicting what IAF wants.....
> Meanwhile in a decade and half probability of AMCA coming into Picture is more probable... while FGFA will be in induction stage..
> 
> MMRCA is mainly for political drama to secure our Objectives.. so you can easily guess who will be the winner..



In my views not so. IAF has the vision to use MMRCA for *multi-role strike fighter*.Here striking deep in enemy territory in heavily defended ground targets should be main concern.The upgrades of *limited *number of Mig27, mirages and jaguar happening because we don't have the required number and need to carry them upto 2025-30 time frame.

All the IAF fighters(mki,pak-fa,lca,amca) will have good striking capability.But each have different specialization and requirement.


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## kingdurgaking

softtec said:


> In my views not so. IAF has the vision to use MMRCA for *multi-role strike fighter*.Here striking deep in enemy territory in heavily defended ground targets should be main concern.The upgrades of *limited *number of Mig27, mirages and jaguar happening because we don't have the required number and need to carry them upto 2025-30 time frame.
> 
> All the IAF fighters(mki,pak-fa,lca,amca) will have good striking capability.But each have different specialization and requirement.



Exactly agreed in some points... If there is a clear cut view like you have.. IAF would have given RFP exactly what they want(Just like tankers ,Air lifters and helis).. If they want to strike deep in heavily guarded.. you need a twin engine fighter which can carry huge bombs to say a bomb truck then F-18/Rafael or F-15 SE would be the optimal and the single engine would not have been allowed to participate... as it would fail miserably in heavily guarded area... IAF just had some test points .. what ever passed above those threshold they wanted to push it to the next level.. So far all of them passed the threshold limit and everything is promoted to next level without recommendation(as per IAF chief interview and press reports).. dont you think it is very strange.. even EF is promoted which is the least in doing the bombing role.. 
IAF purely wanted a good A2A and A2G not the best thats why everything is promoted to next level... This could be because they can see the light at the end of the tunnel for Tejas.. which i guess they are backing on very much especially on Tejas-2.. There was a article from Mr.Subramaniam (i guess) who said if Tejas-2 failed then IAF would opt for the clause in MMRCA...


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## ganimi kawa

*Eurofighter Begins Talks with Indian Defense Suppliers - Reuters*


The makers of Eurofighter jets are in *talks with Indian firms to plug them into the European consortium's global supply chain, *a senior company executive said on Monday, in potential deals worth millions of dollars.


The level of local sourcing is a factor that India may consider while selecting a successful bidder, as are other parameters such as willingness to transfer technology to domestic firms or manufacture in India. The stakes are high for domestic and foreign firms. India is one of the world's biggest arms importers, and the government says it plans to spend more than $30 billion to upgrade its Soviet-supplied military over the next five years to counter potential threats from Pakistan and China.

A new KPMG report tops this estimate, forecasting *India to spend about $112 billion on defence procurement by 2016, creating offset opportunities worth $30 billion *for the domestic industry.

Eurofighter sources said *the Indian companies Eurofighter were talking to were the defence systems unit of Mahindra and Mahindra (MAHM.BO), India's top utility vehicles maker, and state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL).*

*Plans to engage with Indian suppliers were independent of the outcome of the 126 jets order that is likely to be awarded mid-next year, Eurofighter said.*

"This demonstrates our commitment to integrating India into the programme as a true and equal industrial partner," Bernhard Gerwert, chairman of the supervisory board of Eurofighter GmbH, told a group of journalists in New Delhi.

Cassidian Air Systems, part of the Eurofighter consortium, is holding talks for supply of mechanical and electronic equipment and avionics for the Eurofighter's global supply chain. 

*Eurofighter has already opened a research and development centre in Bangalore and aims to hire 200-250 engineers by 2012.*


----------



## SpArK

Eurofighter says in talks with Indian suppliers | Reuters​
Oct 25 (Reuters) - The makers of Eurofighter jets are in talks with Indian firms to plug them into the European consortium's global supply chain, a senior company executive said on Monday, in potential deals worth millions of dollars.

The Eurofighter Typhoon jet is competing with U.S. and Russian models to win a contract from India for 126 fighter jets, valued at around $11 billion. The Eurofighter jet is produced by a consortium of European firms including EADS (EAD.PA), BAE Systems (BAES.L) and Finmeccanica (SIFI.MI).

Boeing's (BA.N) F/A-18 Super Hornet, Dassault's (AVMD.PA) Rafale, Lockheed Martin Corp's (LMT.N) F-16, Russia's MiG-35 and Saab's (SAABb.ST) JAS-39 Gripen are also competing for the order.

*India last year introduced a new rule that made it mandatory for foreign defence firms to buy 30 percent of equipment from local firms to boost the domestic defence sector, and is now looking to raise the figure to 70 percent within a decade.*

The level of local sourcing is a factor that India may consider while selecting a successful bidder, as are other parameters such as willingness to transfer technology to domestic firms or manufacture in India.

The stakes are high for domestic and foreign firms. India is one of the world's biggest arms importers, and the government says it plans to spend more than $30 billion to upgrade its Soviet-supplied military over the next five years to counter potential threats from Pakistan and China. [ID:nDEL380118]

*A new KPMG report tops this estimate, forecasting India to spend about $112 billion on defence procurement by 2016, creating offset opportunities worth $30 billion for the domestic industry.
*

*Eurofighter sources said the Indian companies Eurofighter were talking to were the defence systems unit of Mahindra and Mahindra (MAHM.BO), India's top utility vehicles maker, and state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL).*

Plans to engage with Indian suppliers were independent of the outcome of the 126 jets order that is likely to be awarded mid-next year, Eurofighter said.

"This demonstrates our commitment to integrating India into the programme as a true and equal industrial partner," Bernhard Gerwert, chairman of the supervisory board of Eurofighter GmbH, told a group of journalists in New Delhi.

*Cassidian Air Systems, part of the Eurofighter consortium, is holding talks for supply of mechanical and electronic equipment and avionics for the Eurofighter's global supply chain.

Eurofighter has already opened a research and development centre in Bangalore and aims to hire 200-250 engineers by 2012. (Editing by C.J. Kuncheria and Lincoln Feast)*


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## dbc

sancho said:


> Never did that, I provided, that shows it and even sources where even US pilots acknowledging Rafales advantages in that field. Same goes for US F16 pilots btw, that were fielded against Rafale in WVR combats before Red Flag. There are serveral reports about it's very good performance, but you keep denying it and claiming about less drag of the SH. However, besides your usual quotes, I think it's on you to provide a source that Rafale is inferior to SH, or at least that the SH has less drag as you claim and that's why is superior to Rafale.
> 
> 
> 
> Same for this claim, I backed my points with clear sources, but didn't saw anything else than doubts from you. It's ok if you have doubts, but you still have to proof that it has not a low RCS.
> Btw, I never stated a number for the RCS, so how can you compare it to B2 than?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.thalesgroup.com/assets/0/93/238/b1572ced-d842-410a-ad3b-b569dcb6d5fc.pdf?LangType=2057
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It was practically shown during ATLC, so again you can have your doubts and call it dubious, but that doesn't proof it right.



The quotes you provided are from dubious sources or other online forums, the author of the below report claims six Hornets were defeated but does not provide a source for his claim. Surely, Claudio Dantas Sequeira e Octávio Costa wasn't in the debriefing room with USN and French pilots to know the results of the mock engagement. The author does not reveal his source nor is he professional enough to quote unnamed source for the benefit of gullible readers.

Thales claims detection and tracking capability, a BVR shot requires range, velocity and heading to allow the missile to estimate motor burn and highest probability intercept heading unless the missile seeker is fully active when the shot is taken. 



> Brazilian news report
> 
> The divergence of information led to the FAB mark this item Gripen in yellow attention. The F-18 Blue won this variable, but reddened under "radar-signature ', which means tracking by enemy radar. The Rafale, according to official figures, is more "invisible" among competitors (blue = good, yellow = average, red = bad).
> 
> In a recent simulated exercise with the US Navy, the French jets "downed" six F-18 and lost only two aircrafts.The American pilots said they could only see the Rafale on the radar when it was too late to react.



An active missile seeker shot will set off the adversaries RWR system. I'm not disputing Spectra's ability to passive detect or track enemy EM emissions but response to passive detection can only be close range active missile seeker shot in beam riding mode. An attack using passive receivers does not have the benefit of LAR (launch acceptability region) computations, the missile relies entirely on its own seeker to work out motor burn and proximity fuze duration.
The primary factors that typically limit the launch envelope of a weapon are its kinematic performance and seeker capabilities. 
Missiles have limited fuel, kinematic performance is contingent upon pre-launch data such as range, velocity and altitude of the target which Spectra does not provide.

Counter measures such as chaffs are very effective against close range active shots in beam riding mode - the pilot has most likely wasted a missile.


----------



## 1000VA

defence.professionals | defpro.com

*Supervisory Board of Eurofighter GmbH meets in New Delhi for the first time*

10:14 GMT, October 25, 2010 New Delhi | Eurofighter, its partner companies and the four nation members of the European consortium Germany, the UK, Italy and Spain, are fully committed to deepening the strategic partnership with India. Paving the way for this long-term cooperation, the Supervisory Board of Eurofighter GmbH is meeting in New Delhi for the first time. *CEOs from Eurofighter partner companies (EADS, BAE Systems and Alenia Aeronautica) are visiting New Delhi from 25th to 26th October 2010. The Supervisory Board will support the ongoing Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) campaign and propose to the potential Indian partners additional opportunities for industrial and technological cooperation.*

Bernhard Gerwert, Chairman of the Supervisory Board of Eurofighter GmbH and CEO of EADS subsidiary Cassidian Air Systems, said: "The Eurofighter Supervisory Board is meeting in New Delhi to underline the importance we attach to integrating India into the programme as a true and equal industrial partner. Even ahead of any contract, we are ready to engage India's defence and aerospace industry in joint production and research & development (R&D) for Eurofighter Typhoon.

Enzo Casolini, CEO Eurofighter GmbH, added: *We have the potential to elevate Indo-European political, industrial and technological relations to a completely new level. All Eurofighter partner countries are supporting the Eurofighter campaign in India. Four nations, four air forces and Europe's leading aerospace and defence companies want to increase their industrial cooperation with Indian defence companies for mutual benefit through the most advanced multi role fighter available on the market.*

The Eurofighter Supervisory Board members meeting in India also includes Christopher Boardman, Managing Director Typhoon Mission Support & International Programmes of BAE Systems, Enrique Barrientos, CEO Cassidian Spain, and Maurizio de Mitri, Senior Vice President Commercial Defence Aircraft of Alenia Aeronautica.


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## sancho

ganimi kawa said:


> @ Sancho, great effort ,man!
> 
> I still think that the rafale design was not designed with LO as a primary objective. Too many flares fron RCS point of view. Especially with weapons load I'm still very skeptical about whether it'll have low enough RCS to make an impact vis a vis SH.
> 
> Though, the active cancellation tech, if true to it's claims could be a game changer.
> 
> P.S. Do you have any info on the Carbone pod, it's a pity if cancelled. That could have been another game changer for Rafale.



It was, but compared to EF, it obviously had to compromise more, because it was aimed at carrier service too, so lower and easy maintenance was aimed at some points (fixed refueling probe for example). Don't forget, although all these improvements and new developments, the Rafale was aimed at comparable maintenance hours/costs like the Mirage 2000!
Personally I would prefer a retractable probe too and I think they will change that with the F4 upgrade (not for UAE, the next normal upgrade that is already under development, but it is not deniable that they have build in several features to be less detecable, be it for radar, or IR.

One thing we have to keep in mind too is, that the RCS is only one part from beeing less detectable! As mentioned before, an active radar will add in this field too, just like the size, but to have a good EWS for jamming is important too!
IAF haven't gone for the best EWS on offer for the MKI without a reason and haven't the Mig 21 Bisons that gave US F15s a hard time also an Israeli EWS? In fact, IAF showed the same advantage of low RCS, good EWS and passive detection capabilities in that time, that we see on the Rafale now too. The difference is only, that the Bisons needed to be guided by MKI radar and datalinks (that will be an advantage for a MKI/Rafale combo too), but the Rafale can do it alone with SPECTRA in longer ranges and FSO in smaller ranges too. 

Now to the SH again, it has clearly *some* RCS reductions, but mainly compared to the earlier F18 Hornet. The main aim of the re-design to the SH was not low RCS, but increased range and higher bring back load! Both the Hornet and the Super Hornet are carrier fighters in first place and because the range and the bring back load was very limited at the Hornet, they re-designed it and made the SH much bigger. The wings alone got 25% bigger and the airframe was streched for these aims too. Also the re-designed air intakes were needed to get more airflow for the new engines and not for lower RCS in first place, same goes for the replacement of metall parts with composites, because they had to reduce the weight in first place and RCS reduction in second.


Btw, I purposely didn't stated any RCS figure in my comparison, because those available on the net are mainly speculations, or estimations and I don't wanted to join in wild guessing. The sources I provided instead, are from the official Brazilian evaluation report (made by their air force that is said to prefer the Gripen NG, so if they still found out that the Rafale is the least detectable and the SH the "worst" of those 3, it should tell us something don't you think?), or from recent exercises that gave us hint about it. 

Not sure if it's cancelled, but the French are pretty secretly when it comes to such developments and capabilities, just look at SPECTRA EWS, nearly a decade in service now and so less is really known and not surprising that the US is trying everything to gather infos when they are at the same exercise.


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## sancho

softtec said:


> Hi Sancho..Thanks for such a big effort and research u made...
> ...I have not compare both spec by spec.But what will be the perfect for indian MMRCA selection(looking for the money and time constraint also).



Hi softtech, hi haven't made that comparison just as an reply to your post, but as a common comparison between both fighters, because we were discussing about them in serveral threads. I felt an equal comparison in this thread will answer your points and make the discussion easier.




softtec said:


> Here are my comments :
> 
> *1)*As u also mentioned in *A to G *SH is the best and proven and Rafale is the nearest.As u also know IAF looking to use MMRCA for more of strike fighter role.*Leaving aside PAK-FA and mki to A to A role*.So it should be the most important factor for MMRCA selection.



Mate we are searching for a multi role fighter and not a simple ground attack fighter, that doesn't mean the fighter must be equally good in all roles, but a credible self defense capability should be available don't you think?
Just think about a possible war situation, 2 x SH and 2 MKIs are engaging 4 x PAF F16s in WVR, do you want the SH to back out and let the MKIs attack them even outnumbered? No matter how important A2G capabilities are, imo the fighter must give an advantage against all possible opponents in A2A too. If we want ground attack fighters that needs other fighters to defend them, we could simply go for more licence build Jaguars, upgrade them with new engines and weapons and let other air superiority fighters cover them. That would be cheaper and the easier than buy new MMRCAs.




softtec said:


> *2) *Rafale with its greater TW ratio has greater aero-dynamic performance.It will have *advantage in wvr over SH* surely.But look ..IAF not facing Rafale or typhoon.Let the mki and pak-fa handle it.



As I showed in the example, it don't have to be a Rafale, or EF, even PAFs F16s can be a thread for the SH in WVR, because it has the same JHMCS/ AIM 9 combo and when the tech/weapon advantage of the SH is gone, its flight performance will make it inferior. My comparison was in regard to the new B52s, but when we keep in mind that the MLUs will get these weapons and techs to, but are lighter than the new once, they should be even better in dog fights against SH.

Regarding BVR and RCS, check my reply to ganimi kawa please, oh and check the graphic about the SH upgrade too! There is nothing about AESA radar upgrade, because the radar is already one of the best and most proven once. As I pointed out, the upgrade is needed in fields where the SH is inferior to latest fighters on offer, like the Eurocanards.




softtec said:


> *4)* Now as u know SH is cheaper with limited(as much IAF wants) TOT.The already costlier Rafale will cost more with source codes. Do we need source code??Do you know why would IAF need source code spending extra money?
> 
> IAF not looking for source code to develop its own radar.Neither france will give us anything core codes to replicate.Parallel process going on for this.



First of all I think you are confusing ToT with source codes here, because ToT will help for further developments, but also to build critical parts.
Without that much ToT of MKI, we would still be dependent on spare supply from Russia like we were with the older Migs. Now we can build the complete MKI in India itself and can maintain them much better than the Migs before (12 years of Flanker service in IAF with 2 crashes only and not a single one cause of maintenance problems, which is even a better rekord than PAF has with their F16s). That's why ToT, especially of critical parts is important for us. Btw, who said that ToT and source codes costs extra? Except the US fighters, all are offered with ToT and source codes!




softtec said:


> *Now this is more important:*
> *5)*We need to make it sure all MMRCA should be delivered *in time(by 2020) and in the same price*.Unfortunately for me France has lost the credibility for handling big orders for both of these terms.Who will take responsibility if we have to pay more for already costlier Rafale ? What about time?Boeing and all US vendors with their work experience of handling huge orders smoothly will be *miles ahead(I mean it)* of already low credibility france vendors handling limited Rafale production.This is the most crucial.



That's not correct and I already explained it in the comparison why:



> And when will this upgrade be available? Possibly around 2015, if anybody orders and funds it, because so far it was only proposed from Boeing, but neither USN, nor the only export customer Australia has ordered, or cleared it. Rafale on the other side, will have AESA radar, a more cost-effective engine and DDM NG by 2012, when the first F3+ for the French forces will be delivered, so Rafale will be available with full techs way earlier than the SH!



So if all MMRCAs should be delivered till 2020, Dassault have up to 8 years time, while Boeing has only 5 and need to develop and integrate the upgrades first.


Finally I think I should point out the field of costs a bit more, because you seems to forget some things here.
For IAF it will look like this:

*F18SH costs* = fly away costs + system costs (weapons, spares, training...) + upgrade costs to Block 3 level + costs for building complete new logistic and maintenance routes

*Rafale costs* = higher fly away costs + system costs (weapons, spares, training...) 

The higher Rafale costs per fighter, will be reduced to some extend by the facts that we have way more commonality with the present fleet (MICA, Hammer, Scalp for 51 Mirage 2K-5+ 126 fighters at least, instead of just 126 SHs), as well as already available supply routes and they need no further upgrades to offer latest techs. If we can customise the Rafale with Kaveri- Snecma engine and Indian weapons, the costs can be further reduced, not to mention if we can add Indian weapons for more variety and cost-effectiveness. Can you still say that the Rafale deal will be clearly costlier? I can't, but what I can say is, that it offers more advantages for our forces and industry!


----------



## sancho

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> The quotes you provided are from dubious sources or other online forums, the author of the below report claims six Hornets were defeated but does not provide a source for his claim. Surely, Claudio Dantas Sequeira e Octávio Costa wasn't in the debriefing room with USN and French pilots to know the results of the mock engagement. The author does not reveal his source nor is he professional enough to quote unnamed source for the benefit of gullible readers.



That's your opinion, but you can't proof that his report is wrong, also that wasn't the only source I provided, where Rafale that talks about the advantages of the Rafale in these fields, just like I provided a sources that even named the US pilot that confirmed the Rafale to be better in dog fights, but even then you keep denying it right?

I have not a problem that you have a different opinion than me, but as I said I backed up my statements, you instead didn't showed a single source that would back your claims up. Please provide a source that says F18SH is more maneuverable than Rafale, because of less drag as you said, or that it is less detectable as you said. 



Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Thales claims detection and tracking capability, a BVR shot requires range, velocity and heading to allow the missile to estimate motor burn and highest probability intercept heading unless the missile seeker is fully active when the shot is taken.



You asked for a source, I gave you one and don't for get they can track with both channels, the IRST and the TV. 



Death.By.Chocolate said:


> ...Missiles have limited fuel, kinematic performance is contingent upon pre-launch data such as range, *velocity and altitude of the target which Spectra does not provide*.



And how exactly do you know that, or is just your opinion? If you have more details about SPECTRA capabilties please share them with us.


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## FSLN

Give it up Dude, SH will win...


----------



## softtec

sancho said:


> Mate we are searching for a multi role fighter and not a simple ground attack fighter, that doesn't mean the fighter must be equally good in all roles, but a credible self defense capability should be available don't you think?
> Just think about a possible war situation, 2 x SH and 2 MKIs are engaging 4 x PAF F16s in WVR, do you want the SH to back out and let the MKIs attack them even outnumbered? No matter how important A2G capabilities are, imo the fighter must give an advantage against all possible opponents in A2A too. If we want ground attack fighters that needs other fighters to defend them, we could simply go for more licence build Jaguars, upgrade them with new engines and weapons and let other air superiority fighters cover them. That would be cheaper and the easier than buy new MMRCAs.
> 
> 
> 
> As I showed in the example, it don't have to be a Rafale, or EF, even PAFs F16s can be a thread for the SH in WVR, because it has the same JHMCS/ AIM 9 combo and when the tech/weapon advantage of the SH is gone, its flight performance will make it inferior. My comparison was in regard to the new B52s, but when we keep in mind that the MLUs will get these weapons and techs to, but are lighter than the new once, they should be even better in dog fights against SH.
> 
> Regarding BVR and RCS, check my reply to ganimi kawa please, oh and check the graphic about the SH upgrade too! There is nothing about AESA radar upgrade, because the radar is already one of the best and most proven once. As I pointed out, the upgrade is needed in fields where the SH is inferior to latest fighters on offer, like the Eurocanards.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> First of all I think you are confusing ToT with source codes here, because ToT will help for further developments, but also to build critical parts.
> Without that much ToT of MKI, we would still be dependent on spare supply from Russia like we were with the older Migs. Now we can build the complete MKI in India itself and can maintain them much better than the Migs before (12 years of Flanker service in IAF with 2 crashes only and not a single one cause of maintenance problems, which is even a better rekord than PAF has with their F16s). That's why ToT, especially of critical parts is important for us. Btw, who said that ToT and source codes costs extra? Except the US fighters, all are offered with ToT and source codes!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's not correct and I already explained it in the comparison why:
> 
> 
> 
> So if all MMRCAs should be delivered till 2020, Dassault have up to 8 years time, while Boeing has only 5 and need to develop and integrate the upgrades first.
> 
> 
> Finally I think I should point out the field of costs a bit more, because you seems to forget some things here.
> For IAF it will look like this:
> 
> *F18SH costs* = fly away costs + system costs (weapons, spares, training...) + upgrade costs to Block 3 level + costs for building complete new logistic and maintenance routes
> 
> *Rafale costs* = higher fly away costs + system costs (weapons, spares, training...)
> 
> The higher Rafale costs per fighter, will be reduced to some extend by the facts that we have way more commonality with the present fleet (MICA, Hammer, Scalp for 51 Mirage 2K-5+ 126 fighters at least, instead of just 126 SHs), as well as already available supply routes and they need no further upgrades to offer latest techs. If we can customise the Rafale with Kaveri- Snecma engine and Indian weapons, the costs can be further reduced, not to mention if we can add Indian weapons for more variety and cost-effectiveness. Can you still say that the Rafale deal will be clearly costlier? I can't, but what I can say is, that it offers more advantages for our forces and industry!



Hi Sancho,
How do you think PAF f16 will be superior than SH? Apart from various upgraded sensors, the missiles, we will be using will be a generation ahead what they will be using. 
I don't know why u did mentioned Jaguar here.I mentioned IAF will be using MMRCA more for strike role. IAF will be using mki and pakfa for full air superiority role. But I also mentioned SH with its near RCS footprint and much advance radar will be superior in *A to A BVR fight*.
Wat I told that only in WVR fight, Rafale will be superior to SH and you started comparing SH with jaguar!!!

2)What do u think whats the difference between SH and Rafale rcs figure? As I have read both r almost equal.

3)Full TOT is obviously better.But did IAF itself asked for full TOT?I think they also satisfy with limited tot for critical parts.And what do think IAF will be using source code things.For SH we don't need *limited *source code,which Rafale gives.Because all the arms u will source from US itself.

4)Your cost structure is not correct.The whole range of tools will be created for Rafale also.The few parts commonality also presents in SH engine area.

5) You avoided the most important fact.All the manufacturing in India should start from 2015 and finish by 2020.Unlike US vendors, France vendors don't have the experience to handle big numbers orders.They are so rigid and usually comes with excuses after unable to respect the deal.The way US companies can execute the whole process smoothly, u can't expect that from France.More over *we have already experienced irritating huge time and cost overrun with france companies*.


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## praveen007

FSLN said:


> Give it up Dude, SH will win...




no sir I bet RAFAL will win mmrca.........


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## INDIAN007

praveen007 said:


> no sir I bet RAFAL will win mmrca.........



And My bet is on Eurofighter Typhoon........lets see who wins.....result next year i think........Btw there was news that air force may consider two winners for MMRCA....and buy two differnt jets


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## kingdurgaking

praveen007 said:


> no sir I bet RAFAL will win mmrca.........



No .... it is Euro Fighter


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## hellofriends

praveen007 said:


> no sir I bet RAFAL will win mmrca.........



Rafel already failed in technical evaluation and every one know EF is best operation aircraft in the world. so my bet is eurofighter.


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## INDIAN007

And what About Gripen......looks good too



























But personally i fell Eurofighter typhoon should Win MMRCA


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## FSLN

kingdurgaking said:


> No .... it is Euro Fighter


 Sorry to burst your bubble buddy but EF its not looking to good now...

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/77778-india-expels-german-bribary-engines.html


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## kingdurgaking

FSLN said:


> Sorry to burst your bubble buddy but EF its not looking to good now...
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/77778-india-expels-german-bribary-engines.html



A new bubble is created ... see the trailing news    ...

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## kingdurgaking

Of all the contenders .... 
US technologically strong
France technically good and trust worthy
Russia Technically good and do we need to say more about there trust with us 
Grippen technically good and no worthy
EU Technically good and less trust worthy but willing to make as partner and Jobs... 

I guess France, EU and Russia should be the order of choice for every one in MMRCA... but EU has gone to level 1 more and are willing to give development job in India which No one including Russia ... Though Russia gives 100% ToT including the Raw materials and let us do license manufacturing here .. i guess the high time now is Jobs and improvement in Aviation sector .. we had enough of Production ToT.. Even Dassault wont contribute here.. I am pretty much sure IAF will make best use of what ever being selected in the MMRCA competition.. so I am hoping to see EF because of this.. 

But US comes at the end and strikes the goal.... sad it happens always with EU at least... because US have the technology and they have the power to bend others... Ultimately we will be sailing on the same boat with same ToT... no improvement in our fate


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## 1000VA

*Cost of Selected US Military Aircraft*

PARIS --- After nearly two years of suspension, the Pentagon on April 1 resumed public release of its Selected Acquisition Reports, a document which tracks the cost of major US weapon programs on a quarterly basis. This latest SAR covers weapon costs as of December 2009.

This allows us, in turn, to update our previous evaluation of the true cost of major US military aircraft, the last of which was published in April 2007. Subsequent SARs did not document sufficient cost escalation to warrant updating our estimate.

Computing the Real Cost of US Military Aircraft*
*
The Pentagons Selected Acquisition Report estimates the total cost of each major program by computing actual costs to date, when available, or by estimating future anticipated costs, when not. All estimates include anticipated inflation allowances.

The Program Acquisition Unit Cost (PAUC) figures are computed by dividing the total cost of each program by the number of units to be produced.

PAUC includes research and development costs, and some support costs. It is thus not an indication of actual acquisition prices. It is, however, the simplest, clearest and most accessible measure of real weapon costs that is publicly available.

It also offers two major advantages: it is practically immune to manipulation, and is a credible basis for direct comparisons between programs.

*Latest SAR Details JSF Cost Blow-out*

Unsurprisingly, the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter program continues to experience the greatest cost escalation of all US weapon programs. As well documented in our news coverage and elsewhere, this years SAR led the program to critically breach the Nunn-McCurdy price ceiling, which requires Congressional notification and re-certification by the Under Secretary of Defense for Acquisition, Technology & Logistics no later than June 1, 2010.

According to the latest SAR, the JSFs Program Acquisition Unit Cost (PAUC) increased 57.2% and the Average Procurement Unit Cost (APUC) increased 57.2% compared to the original Acquisition Program Baseline (APB) to reflect the average unit price for the restructured JSF program, as estimated by the OSD Cost Assessment and Program Evaluation (CAPE)-led independent Joint Estimate Team (JET).

Specifically, in 2001, the average procurement unit cost for the JSF was estimated at $50 million base year 2002 dollars or $59 million in base year 2010 dollars. This is now estimated to fall within a range of $79 million to $95 million in base year 2002 dollars or $93 million to $112 million in base year 2010 dollars. This is a 57% to 89% increase from the original baseline.

The reasons for the Unit Cost Growth included larger-than-planned development costs driven by Short Take-Off and Vertical Landing (STOVL) variant weight growth and a longer forecasted development schedule; increase in labor and overhead rates; degradation of airframe commonality; lower production quantities; increases in commodity prices (particularly titanium); major subcontractor cost growth; and the impact of revised inflation indices.

In addition, factors that were driven by substantially higher contractor change traffic (i.e., changes in design not resulting from changes in requirements or capability), which led to increased engineering and software staffing; extended manufacturing span times; and delayed delivery of aircraft to flight test, led to a further slip of the development and flight test program.

Further, substantial cost increases are anticipated when the programs costs are re-computed by the Pentagon in June. 

*US Military Aircraft: Total and Unit Costs by Program*






_*(Source: US DoD for data; defense-aerospace.com for calculations; based on Selected Acquisition Reports to December 31, 2009) (in $ millions)

(NOTES: (1) Numbers for previous production runs (was) refer to previous SAR, and not necessarily to the Dec. 2006 SAR used in our previous analysis. (2) significant unit cost increases in red.)*_


The above table compares the current program and unit costs for major US military aircraft programs to those in our previous report, based on the December 2006 SAR.

The main conclusion is that, contrary to general perception, the cost of US military aircraft remains remarkably stable when measured on a per-unit basis, and all the more so considering that the comparison period spans three years in an industry often prone to higher-than-normal inflation.

The table also shows that, with the sole exception of the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, Nunn/McCurdy cost breaches (marked in bold) are mostly due to increases in the number of aircraft being procured. This obviously boosts total program costs without necessarily increasing, and in fact often lowering, unit costs because of the longer production run.

Finally, it should be noted that Nunn/McCurdy breaches are computed relative to original program baseline costs, whereas our comparison only documents such changes that have occurred since the most recent relevant SAR.

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## dbc

sancho said:


> That's your opinion, but you can't proof that his report is wrong, also that wasn't the only source I provided, where Rafale that talks about the advantages of the Rafale in these fields, just like I provided a sources that even named the US pilot that confirmed the Rafale to be better in dog fights, but even then you keep denying it right?
> 
> I have not a problem that you have a different opinion than me, but as I said I backed up my statements, you instead didn't showed a single source that would back your claims up. Please provide a source that says F18SH is more maneuverable than Rafale, because of less drag as you said, or that it is less detectable as you said.
> 
> 
> 
> You asked for a source, I gave you one and don't for get they can track with both channels, the IRST and the TV.
> 
> 
> 
> And how exactly do you know that, or is just your opinion? If you have more details about SPECTRA capabilties please share them with us.



I repeat your 'sources' are unreliable, the Brazilian journalist you quoted did not provide a source for his claims. Don't expect me or anyone else to waste time debunking random thrash you pick up from the internet.

It is clear you do not understand 'detection/tracking' is not the same as acquisition of data such as range, velocity, heading and altitude. You clearly do not understand the importance of acquiring this data and estimating LAR before launching a guided missile. Mia culpa! for expecting you to be rational in the face of criticism of your beloved Rafale.

Further, recall you claimed the Rafale has superior thrust to weight ratio and therefore is superior to the F/A-18 E/F. I disputed your claim and pointed out engine thrust is measured on a test rack at sea level.
How much of that engine performance can be extracted in the air depends on the aircraft's design. I established that thrust is required to overcome drag, so your T/W ratio evidence is inadequate to establish the Rafale's superiority.

*The Mirage 2000 has a T/W ratio of 0.91 and yet it has set high speed records as a mater of fact it has a higher top speed of MACH 2.2 much faster than the Rafale which tops at MACH 1.8.*


It is a well known that the speed of sound increases as the temperature increases. Simplified this means that sound travels much faster at low altitude due to this breaching the sound barrier at low altitudes is much more difficult.

*The Starfighter F-104 still holds the low altitude world speed record but it has a abysmal thrust to weight ratio of 0.54. *



> Keep in mind that the low-altitude record for flight speed was set in the Seventies with a slightly modified Starfighter. Which was owned by a civilian group, Darryl Greenameyer's Red Baron racing team. They went to the high desert and set the record at 988 mph, averaged from four passes, each at a height above ground level of less than a hundred meters.



The Mirage 2000,F-14 Tomcat,F-15 and the Starfighter are among the few military fighters that have achieved this feat. A few years ago, I personally witnessed the Blue Angles demo team break the sound barrier no more than 10 meters above the ocean surface in Monaco in a F/A-18. This was done in confined air space allocated to demo team by the event organizers. It wasn't from a high speed dive or long sprint to transonic flight. 

Here is a video, notice the shock collar produced by the F/A-18 in transonic flight and the sonic boom as it breaches the sound barrier at low altitude.






This should be sufficient 'proof' *but are you man enough to admit you were wrong?* I don't think you are... 

I fully expect you to do a little Bolllywood song and dance routine to deflect attention away from your dubious claims. But since I am doing this for the benefit of interested readers - please dance away

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## razgriz19



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## praveen007

What the hell. let any of the euro-birds win mmrca. excepet gripo- and - teens. i m ok with it.


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## soaringphnx

hellofriends said:


> Rafel already failed in technical evaluation



No aircraft has failed the technical evaluation. It was just a rumor and it IAF later confirmed it to be false.



hellofriends said:


> every one know EF is best operation aircraft in the world.



oh really? Please care to elaborate


----------



## Sri

1000VA said:


> *Cost of Selected US Military Aircraft*
> 
> PARIS --- After nearly two years of suspension, the Pentagon on April 1 resumed public release of its Selected Acquisition Reports, a document which tracks the cost of major US weapon programs on a quarterly basis. This latest SAR covers weapon costs as of December 2009.
> 
> This allows us, in turn, to update our previous evaluation of the true cost of major US military aircraft, the last of which was published in April 2007. Subsequent SARs did not document sufficient cost escalation to warrant updating our estimate.
> 
> Computing the Real Cost of US Military Aircraft*
> *
> The Pentagons Selected Acquisition Report estimates the total cost of each major program by computing actual costs to date, when available, or by estimating future anticipated costs, when not. All estimates include anticipated inflation allowances.
> 
> The Program Acquisition Unit Cost (PAUC) figures are computed by dividing the total cost of each program by the number of units to be produced.
> 
> PAUC includes research and development costs, and some support costs. It is thus not an indication of actual acquisition prices. It is, however, the simplest, clearest and most accessible measure of real weapon costs that is publicly available.
> 
> It also offers two major advantages: it is practically immune to manipulation, and is a credible basis for direct comparisons between programs.
> 
> *Latest SAR Details JSF Cost Blow-out*
> 
> Unsurprisingly, the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter program continues to experience the greatest cost escalation of all US weapon programs. As well documented in our news coverage and elsewhere, this years SAR led the program to critically breach the Nunn-McCurdy price ceiling, which requires Congressional notification and re-certification by the Under Secretary of Defense for Acquisition, Technology & Logistics no later than June 1, 2010.
> 
> According to the latest SAR, the JSFs Program Acquisition Unit Cost (PAUC) increased 57.2% and the Average Procurement Unit Cost (APUC) increased 57.2% compared to the original Acquisition Program Baseline (APB) to reflect the average unit price for the restructured JSF program, as estimated by the OSD Cost Assessment and Program Evaluation (CAPE)-led independent Joint Estimate Team (JET).
> 
> Specifically, in 2001, the average procurement unit cost for the JSF was estimated at $50 million base year 2002 dollars or $59 million in base year 2010 dollars. This is now estimated to fall within a range of $79 million to $95 million in base year 2002 dollars or $93 million to $112 million in base year 2010 dollars. This is a 57% to 89% increase from the original baseline.
> 
> The reasons for the Unit Cost Growth included larger-than-planned development costs driven by Short Take-Off and Vertical Landing (STOVL) variant weight growth and a longer forecasted development schedule; increase in labor and overhead rates; degradation of airframe commonality; lower production quantities; increases in commodity prices (particularly titanium); major subcontractor cost growth; and the impact of revised inflation indices.
> 
> In addition, factors that were driven by substantially higher contractor change traffic (i.e., changes in design not resulting from changes in requirements or capability), which led to increased engineering and software staffing; extended manufacturing span times; and delayed delivery of aircraft to flight test, led to a further slip of the development and flight test program.
> 
> Further, substantial cost increases are anticipated when the programs costs are re-computed by the Pentagon in June.
> 
> *US Military Aircraft: Total and Unit Costs by Program*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _*(Source: US DoD for data; defense-aerospace.com for calculations; based on Selected Acquisition Reports to December 31, 2009) (in $ millions)
> 
> (NOTES: (1) Numbers for previous production runs (was) refer to previous SAR, and not necessarily to the Dec. 2006 SAR used in our previous analysis. (2) significant unit cost increases in red.)*_
> 
> 
> The above table compares the current program and unit costs for major US military aircraft programs to those in our previous report, based on the December 2006 SAR.
> 
> The main conclusion is that, contrary to general perception, the cost of US military aircraft remains remarkably stable when measured on a per-unit basis, and all the more so considering that the comparison period spans three years in an industry often prone to higher-than-normal inflation.
> 
> The table also shows that, with the sole exception of the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, Nunn/McCurdy cost breaches (marked in bold) are mostly due to increases in the number of aircraft being procured. This obviously boosts total program costs without necessarily increasing, and in fact often lowering, unit costs because of the longer production run.
> 
> Finally, it should be noted that Nunn/McCurdy breaches are computed relative to original program baseline costs, whereas our comparison only documents such changes that have occurred since the most recent relevant SAR.



The Per unit cost of Super hornet looks very interesting at 94 Million, also Raptor at 355 m$. I always thought SH was relatively cheaper but that doesnt seems to be the case


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## sancho

Sri said:


> The Per unit cost of Super hornet looks very interesting at 94 Million, also Raptor at 355 m$. I always thought SH was relatively cheaper but that doesnt seems to be the case



should be the system cost, including spares..., the cost of P8I is pretty much what we have paid. However, if we keep in mind how many F18SH the USN bought it is indeed pretty much.




softtec said:


> Hi Sancho,
> How do you think PAF f16 will be superior than SH? Apart from various upgraded sensors, the missiles, we will be using will be a generation ahead what they will be using.



As I explained before, mainly in WVR, because it has the same tech/weapon combo, but is more manouverable as a fighter. Only the Europeans offer a missile that is a generation ahead and that is the METEOR. PAF will have the same AIM 120 and AIM 9, with the only difference that we might get a bit more range and possibly the 9X version, but that are only minor upgrades and not a completelly new missle. 




softtec said:


> I don't know why u did mentioned Jaguar here.I mentioned IAF will be using MMRCA more for strike role. IAF will be using mki and pakfa for full air superiority role. But I also mentioned SH with its near RCS footprint and much advance radar will be superior in A to A BVR fight.
> Wat I told that only in WVR fight, Rafale will be superior to SH and you started comparing SH with jaguar!!!



Because, you said we should leave WVR combats to MKI/Pak Fa and ground attacks to SH, but that's not the way it should be, because we are searching for fighters that will be useful in all roles (although not equally good for all roles), that is the difference between a multi role fighter and a dedicated A2A or A2G fighter like the jags! 
MMRCAs should have a focus on strikes true, but air defense as well and it will be our 2nd frontline fighter besides the MKI for a long time. With our close proximity to Pakistan and China, you simply can't rule out WVR combats, that's why we need a fighter that will offer an advantage in this field too and is not dependent on MKI to cover it. That's why I said, if we just wanted a ground attack fighter, without multi role capabilities we could simply build more Jags. 




softtec said:


> 2)What do u think whats the difference between SH and Rafale rcs figure? As I have read both r almost equal.


As I said, I don't want to speculate!




softtec said:


> 3)Full TOT is obviously better.But did IAF itself asked for full TOT?I think they also satisfy with limited tot for critical parts.And what do think IAF will be using source code things.For SH we don't need limited source code,which Rafale gives.Because all the arms u will source from US itself.



First of all, IAF don't ask for ToT, secondly the US never said they will offer critical ToT, all that might be on offer is ToT of non critical parts than can be produced in India, while the critical parts will be supplied by the US . They don't share their techs, not even with allied countries, same goes for source codes, which are not at all on offer from the US. Not even UAE, which fundend parts of the development and integration of AESA radar into F16 B60 got the source codes!




softtec said:


> 4)Your cost structure is not correct.The whole range of tools will be created for Rafale also.The few parts commonality also presents in SH engine area.


True I forget about the engine, but that's the only point where we have commonality and can be reduce costs, on all other parts of it we will remain completelly dependent on supply from the US and we have to pay more for upgrades and building new logistics...




softtec said:


> 5) You avoided the most important fact.All the manufacturing in India should start from 2015 and finish by 2020.Unlike US vendors, France vendors don't have the experience to handle big numbers orders.They are so rigid and usually comes with excuses after unable to respect the deal.The way US companies can execute the whole process smoothly, u can't expect that from France.More over we have already experienced irritating huge time and cost overrun with france companies.



Again, I showed it in the comparison itself that Dassault has even an advantage in availability and production over Boeing and your point here is only based on your opinion, but not on facts! 
We got 51 Mirage fighters and I never heared that they were delayed, or that we had other problems with them. The licence production of Jaguars went so good, that we produced the last batch only a few years ago and they were developed partly from Br&#233;guet, which now is Dassault Aviation. IAF is even praising the French for their good fighters, quality and maintenance, Thales supplies parts for half of the fleet and has JV with Samtel and so on. So based on our experience, we never had problems with them other than costs possibly!
What you also seem to forget is the fact that only 1 squad of MMRCA should be delivered from the wining country and the rest will be produced in India anyway, so the production capacity in the vendor countries are not important, compared to how fast and smooth we can start licence production. Now tell me, what will be easier, start it with the US where we have simply no experience, or common base, or with France, where we have several licence productions, parterships and JV running for years now, not to forget the available supply routes?
I agree with you that they are more expensive, but it's simply wrong to say that the French can't handle it when the facts are stating exactly the opposite:

1) Long time GOOD experience with French arms, as well with supplies, licence production, co-developments and JV
2) Rafale will be available with full techs way earlier than SH, so delivery and licence production can start in time, or even earlier
3) Dassault has offered early delivery of 40 fighters if we want
4) With more ToT and integration of Indian techs, we can build more of Rafale in India itself and are not dependend on supplies, the same advantage that we now have with the MKI production


----------



## sancho

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Further, recall you claimed the Rafale has superior thrust to weight ratio and therefore is superior to the F/A-18 E/F. I disputed your claim and pointed out engine thrust is measured on a test rack at sea level...



As usual, instead of clear facts and moreover proofs for your claims, your are only distracting with other things and I'm not the only one that realised that this is your tactic:



soaringphnx said:


> However, *I fail to understand why you are deviating the discussion to lift*. So your point is the F-18SH can go up like a rocket and the Rafale can't??




Once again for you, I never said that Rafale is superior because of the better T/W ratio only, I provided several specs that shows it is superior in several points of the fligh performance, *including* the T/W ratio (another one is wing load for example...) and sources that confirms *it is more maneuverable* (even of an US F18SH pilot admit that), all you did was denying and claiming things.




Death.By.Chocolate said:


> How much of that engine performance can be extracted in the air depends on the aircraft's design. I established that thrust is required to overcome drag, so your T/W ratio evidence is inadequate to establish the Rafale's superiority.









Again one of your claims busted ! ! !


----------



## dbc

sancho said:


> YouTube - Rafale à Mach0.95
> 
> 
> Again one of your claims busted ! ! !



All it proves is your ignorance, *did you hear a sonic boom*?
*PG singularity occurs at transonic speeds MACH 0.81.2*,the aircraft in your video did NOT break the sound barrier - *no sonic boom*. 

Keep dancing...

Prandtl?Glauert singularity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> As I explained before, mainly in WVR, because it has the same tech/weapon combo, but is more manouverable as a fighter. Only the Europeans offer a missile that is a generation ahead and that is the METEOR. PAF will have the same AIM 120 and AIM 9, with the only difference that we might get a bit more range and possibly the 9X version, but that are only minor upgrades and not a completelly new missle.



I have a doubt here.. in Visual Range these days pilots fire short range missile or still the old ways of cannon?... Nowerdays Short range missiles are more maneuverable than the fighter right? or i am wrong?
As per my calculations if the above facts are true.. single engine fighters will be toast in WVR.... correct me if i am wrong


----------



## sancho

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> All it proves is your ignorance, *did you hear a sonic boom*?



LOL and the next denial! Check the quote girl, you claimed about drag, but as you can see the Rafale don't seems to have any drag issue at all in the same low level flight, so by your logic the engine performance seems to be no issue too. I'm still waiting to see any real proof about it, that really says something about Rafale, or F18 Superhornet + drag.



kingdurgaking said:


> I have a doubt here.. in Visual Range these days pilots fire short range missile or still the old ways of cannon?... Nowerdays Short range missiles are more maneuverable than the fighter right? or i am wrong?
> As per my calculations if the above facts are true.. single engine fighters will be toast in WVR.... correct me if i am wrong



That's what I meant, when the opponent has the same weapon and same HMS, what advantage in WVR is left for the SH?
Not sure if I get you right, why should a single engine fighter tast in WVR?


----------



## sancho

@ ganimi kawa

In additon to what I wrote in my last post to you, here from the Dassault aviation site:



> ...Minimising the RCS has also been a design driver in order to make stealth tactics possible. Most of the stealth design features are classified but some of them are clearly visible such as the serrated patterns on the trailing edges of the wings and canards.
> 
> Dassault Aviation has a long praised tradition of designing sturdy airframes that sustain over 30 years of operation without heavy structural retrofit.
> Thanks to a Dassault Aviation unique know-how in finite element modelisation, the RAFALE airframe fatigue is monitored with a gauge-free concept. The operational Mirage 2000 fleet daily demonstrates the relevance of this concept.
> 
> Composite materials are extensively used and account for 70% of the wetted area. They also account for the 40% increase in the max take-off weight to empty weight ratio from traditional airframes built with aluminium and titanium.



Optimized airframe


----------



## wali87

guys can anyone tell me if the IAF has chosen an airplane yet from the mrca??


----------



## softtec

sancho said:


> should be the system cost, including spares..., the cost of P8I is pretty much what we have paid. However, if we keep in mind how many F18SH the USN bought it is indeed pretty much.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As I explained before, *mainly in WVR, because it has the same tech/weapon combo*, but is more manouverable as a fighter. Only the Europeans offer a missile that is a generation ahead and that is the METEOR. PAF will have the same AIM 120 and AIM 9, with the only difference that we might get a bit more range and possibly the 9X version, but that are *only minor upgrades and not a completelly new missle*.
> 
> 
> 
> Because, you said we should leave WVR combats to MKI/Pak Fa and ground attacks to SH, but that's not the way it should be, because we are searching for fighters that will be useful in all roles (although not equally good for all roles), that is the difference between a multi role fighter and a dedicated A2A or A2G fighter like the jags!
> MMRCAs should have a focus on strikes true, but air defense as well and it will be our 2nd frontline fighter besides the MKI for a long time. With our close proximity to Pakistan and China, you simply can't rule out WVR combats, that's why we need a fighter that will offer an advantage in this field too and is not dependent on MKI to cover it. That's why I said, if we just wanted a ground attack fighter, without multi role capabilities we could simply build more Jags.
> 
> As I said, I don't want to speculate!
> 
> 
> *First of all, IAF don't ask for ToT*, secondly the US never said they will offer critical ToT, all that might be on offer is ToT of non critical parts than can be produced in India, while the critical parts will be supplied by the US . They don't share their techs, not even with allied countries, same goes for source codes, which are not at all on offer from the US. Not even UAE, which fundend parts of the development and integration of AESA radar into F16 B60 got the source codes!
> 
> 
> 
> True I forget about the engine, but that's the only point where we have commonality and can be reduce costs, on all other parts of it *we will remain completelly dependent on supply from the US and we have to pay more for upgrades and building new logistics...
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again, I showed it in the comparison itself that Dassault has even an advantage in availability and production over Boeing and your point here is only based on your opinion, but not on facts!
> We got 51 Mirage fighters and I never heared that they were delayed, or that we had other problems with them. The licence production of Jaguars went so good, that we produced the last batch only a few years ago and they were developed partly from Bréguet, which now is Dassault Aviation. IAF is even praising the French for their good fighters, quality and maintenance, Thales supplies parts for half of the fleet and has JV with Samtel and so on. So based on our experience, we never had problems with them other than costs possibly!
> What you also seem to forget is the fact that only 1 squad of MMRCA should be delivered from the wining country and the rest will be produced in India anyway, so the production capacity in the vendor countries are not important, compared to how fast and smooth we can start licence production. Now tell me, what will be easier, start it with the US where we have simply no experience, or common base, or with France, where we have several licence productions, parterships and JV running for years now, not to forget the available supply routes?
> I agree with you that they are more expensive, but it's simply wrong to say that the French can't handle it when the facts are stating exactly the opposite:
> 
> 1) Long time GOOD experience with French arms, as well with supplies, licence production, co-developments and JV
> 2) Rafale will be available with full techs way earlier than SH, so delivery and licence production can start in time, or even earlier
> 3) Dassault has offered early delivery of 40 fighters if we want
> 4) With more ToT and integration of Indian techs, we can build more of Rafale in India itself and are not dependend on supplies, the same advantage that we now have with the MKI production



1)Absolutely wrong.SH has much much stronger radar(don't think radar only for range) and much more advance avionics, ecm etc than f16.US says aim9x is the 5th gen missile.There must be much differences than what paf has.All these will give big advantage in wvr fight.

2)Huh..you still not getting.What I said Rafale will be superior in wvr and SH is enough for asian environment in A TO A mode. And what I also meant as mki and pakfa will be used for air superiority role, so let SH concentrate more for strike role.That never means that they will not fight wvr. And I also said that SH will be superior to Rafale in BVR fight.Now you tell me how did u come to know that SH don't have multi role capability?

3)Wrong..IAF asked for *limited TOT* and boeing providing them.Even IAF also know if they want the best equipment they willn't get the TOT for those.And you have wrong assumption for source code.These limited Source code don't help you to replicate anything.And unlike France for US ,where u will get the best arms in cheaper rate, you don't need to integrate other countries arms.

4)Strange..Engines are one of the most important and one of the biggest part in a fighter.*Tell me what bigger and more important commonality you will get in between mirage and rafale!!*

For all the parts boeing like thales will provide tools to manufacture equipments in India.Tell me how for Rafale, we don't have to create more logistic than SH.A fighter has thousands of parts and in mirage and rafale has very less comonilities.
And please don't talk about upgrade cost.We havn't forget how much we have to shell out for mirage updates and how rigid France is.You can't imagine how much they will ask for Rafale upgrade.


5)I can show you the recent scorpean and mirage upgrade instance.Its not the same as earlier.They have to create the full supply chain system in India making all the indian factories up and running to manufacture thousands of parts.They have to train all the indian technicians with necessary technologies.It's more critical and risky than upgrading their own factories at home.In five years they have to make more than 100 fighters.Even at home they don't have experience of producing more than 12 fighter a year!
The work and manpower experience what US vendors have handling and making huge number of products in faster way, will help immensely while setting up factories and training indian technicians in a short time.Unlike France companies, they respect and deliver the deal in time or before time rather than giving excuses and sucking more money after deal.

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## dbc

sancho said:


> LOL and the next denial! Check the quote girl, you claimed about drag, but as you can see the Rafale don't seems to have any drag issue at all in the same low level flight, so by your logic the engine performance seems to be no issue too. I'm still waiting to see any real proof about it, that really says something about Rafale, or F18 Superhornet + drag.



I just realized I'm arguing with a guy possibly a child who does not know the basics of flight. A guy who can't tell the difference between subsonic and supersonic flight. Where's the sonic boom? A seven second video and you can tell the Rafale has no 'drag issues' - incredible!! 

Here is a question, how do you know the Rafale in the 7 second video did not gain air speed from a high altitude dive? Or, how can you tell it did not labor from a great distance to transonic flight? 

You could argue the same about the video evidence I presented earlier. So here is another video* forward to 3.23* notice how the F/A-18 E/F achieves near supersonic speeds in under 5 seconds after a low speed turn. Grow up kid, the Hornet was designed to replace one of the fastest interceptor in aviation history. 

*For those interested don't miss the impressive take off at 1.28*

YouTube - Superhornet High Speed Pass

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## razgriz19

gripen with meteor...






meteor in flight






meteor on rafale!


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## SpArK

*U.K. Move Could See French Aircraft on British Carriers​*
PARIS - London's decision to fit catapults on its planned second aircraft carrier opened up the prospect of French Rafale strike fighters flying off a British flattop, with reciprocal rights for British aircraft off the French carrier, French Defense Minister Hervé Morin said Oct. 26 at the Euronaval trade show.

Morin asked the French military staff to assess whether the installation of catapults would allow French aircraft, such as the Rafale, to operate off the Royal Navy vessel, and the answer was: "Yes, it's technically feasible," he told journalists.






_FRENCH RAFALE STRIKE fighters, such as the one shown above, could fly off a British flattop, with reciprocal rights for British aircraft off the French carrier, the French defense minister said Oct. 26. (File photo / Agence France-Presse)
_


That opened up potential opportunities of interoperability and mutual interdependence between the British and French fleets, he said. With such cross-deck operations came the possibility of a "permanent presence at sea," he said.

"We have a complementarity to play with," he said.

Morin, however, said a French decision on whether to build a second carrier, dubbed porte-avions 2 or PA2, would be made at the end of 2012 or early 2013.

Up to now, President Nicolas Sarkozy has said such a decision would be made in 2011 or 2012.

But money is tight, and a presidential election is due to be held in 2012, which was probably why Morin reset the timetable, a defense official said.

Morin is positioning himself as centrist party candidate for the presidential ballot.

Privately, senior French Navy officers are delighted at the prospect of Britain operating a conventional carrier, rather than the through-deck vessel designed for vertical-takeoff aircraft such as the Sea Harrier.

One officer said it takes something like 25 years to learn how to operate a true carrier.

"I'll be happy to speed it up by 10 to 15 years" the officer said. The French Navy, which operates the Charles de Gaulle carrier, could help with cross training of crews.

The French Navy has been without the use the Charles de Gaulle for three years following a scheduled overhaul of its nuclear reactor and working up period. In that time, French Fleet Air Arm pilots flew in the United States to keep up their flying hours.

Expectations are high that announcements of military cooperation will be made at the Anglo-French summit on Nov. 2, when Sarkozy and British Prime Minister David Cameron meet in Portsmouth in Britain.

U.K. Move Could See French Aircraft on British Carriers - Defense News


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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> That's what I meant, when the opponent has the same weapon and same HMS, what advantage in WVR is left for the SH?
> Not sure if I get you right, why should a single engine fighter tast in WVR?



Surely a twin edge fighter will have more survival option than a single engine fighter right? One missile if it hits the engine altogether it becomes a dead chicken... Where as Twin engine can still hold on and will be able to fly home to some extent dont you think so... 
As per your comment on same weapon and same HMS... WVR will add some advantage for a twin edge dont you think so?


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## soaringphnx

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> the Hornet was designed to replace one of the fastest interceptor in aviation history.



Wrong. F-14 was not the fastest interceptor in aviation history. The F-14 had a top speed of about Mach 2.35. The MiG-25/31 had a top speed of Mach 2.8+ with typical intercept speeds around Mach 2.35 ( which is the F-14s top speed) to increase engine life.


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## dbc

soaringphnx said:


> Wrong. F-14 was not the fastest interceptor in aviation history. The F-14 had a top speed of about Mach 2.35. The MiG-25/31 had a top speed of Mach 2.8+ with typical intercept speeds around Mach 2.35 ( which is the F-14s top speed) to increase engine life.



gimme a break, I said "one of the fastest interceptor" clearly that does not exclude the MIG-25.


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## Dash

If Mirage never had problem with us and we succesfully operated those in Kargil, then rafale being an advanced version of Mirage will certainly do the same and do more. I have no doubt about it.

Mirages scored higher points over Mig-29 and every one else when it came to combat then. The Mig-29 were made to compete with F-16 and F-18s. if they can be beaten down by Mirage then I think Rafale will definitely score better points against anyone.


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## kingdurgaking

Dash said:


> Mirages scored higher points over Mig-29 and every one else when it came to combat then. The Mig-29 were made to compete with F-16 and F-18s. if they can be beaten down by Mirage then I think Rafale will definitely score better points against anyone.



Do you have any proof for it? are you talking about Pilot work load here? Mig 29 is the most agile air superiority aircraft next to MKI in our inventory... It can fry Mirage for lunch for sure.. I dont think Mirage can score over Mig 29... But Rafale can surely win... but still it will be in BVR... in WVR i doubt it against Mig 29..


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## CONNAN

kingdurgaking said:


> Do you have any proof for it? are you talking about Pilot work load here? Mig 29 is the most agile air superiority aircraft next to MKI in our inventory... It can fry Mirage for lunch for sure.. I dont think Mirage can score over Mig 29... But Rafale can surely win... but still it will be in BVR... in WVR i doubt it against Mig 29..



yup you are right i want to support your argument with the below link IAF actually did this exercise mig 29 vs m 2000 and the mig won the exercise

Mirage 2000 Vs MiG-29: Rivals from the same team

sorry its not clear ill try to get a better one

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## CONNAN

*now its better *

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## CONNAN




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## CONNAN




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## CONNAN




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## CONNAN




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## CONNAN




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## CONNAN




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## rockstarIN

kingdurgaking said:


> Do you have any proof for it? are you talking about Pilot work load here? Mig 29 is the most agile air superiority aircraft next to MKI in our inventory... It can fry Mirage for lunch for sure.. I dont think Mirage can score over Mig 29... But Rafale can surely win... but still it will be in BVR... in WVR i doubt it against Mig 29..



=kingdurgaking;1229830]Do you have any proof for it? are you talking about Pilot work load here? Mig 29 is the most agile air superiority aircraft next to MKI in our inventory... It can fry Mirage for lunch for sure.. I dont think Mirage can score over Mig 29... But Rafale can surely win... but still it will be in BVR... in WVR i doubt it against Mig 29..[/QUOTE]

You are right buddy, there is always a perception that Mig-29 is a very inferior aircraft. It did not shot down any F-16s in the real fight. THAT is all true. But all downed Migs technologically were very inferior to the F-16s. Serbian & Iraqi mig-29s on air were even not able to know that they are gonna hit by missiles. They were not able to detect the incoming missles..But there were instances like an Iraqi Mig evaded more than 10 A2A missiles and flew to Iran.

All these views gonna change if some Migs shoot down some weastern aircrafts one day.


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## kingdurgaking

rockstar said:


> All these views gonna change if some Migs shoot down some weastern aircrafts one day.



That will be when there is a war between us and our neighbors... 
Mig 29SMT vs Block 52 yummy ...


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## adatta

or are we heading for mig 29 and f18SH shooting down poor F16 ....


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## kingdurgaking

adatta said:


> or are we heading for mig 29 and f18SH shooting down poor F16 ....



If MMRCA is aimed for eastern and North eastern command then F18sh will be a real wrong choice.. We need Rafale or EFT to defend Chinese Force.... I guess MMRCA is aimed for Eastern and North Eastern commands only because logically they have the older fleets and the fleets present there are not qualified for any upgrades.. in real they hold older Mig 21 and 27's

... for our western neighbor Mig 29, Mirage and bison is enough for defending our country.. I guess we have no logic in striking them... I guess we should remove MKI from western command and put it in eastern and norther commands.. For deep striking we have Jaguars.. If our force feel the need to add punitive strikes MKI can fly from there respective base and return back...


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## FSLN

sancho said:


> the active radar of a fighter itself will give
> away the presents and makes it easier to detect



F/A -18 LPI Radar mode ..


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## FSLN

kingdurgaking said:


> If MMRCA is aimed for eastern and North eastern command then F18sh will be a real wrong choice.. We need Rafale or EFT to defend Chinese Force....


 F/A-18 its decades ahead of anything chinese have now.....


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## rockstarIN

kingdurgaking said:


> That will be when there is a war between us and our neighbors...
> Mig 29SMT vs Block 52 yummy ...



Though we had a chance in 1999, when we were equipped with BVR (R-77) Mig 29s and PAF doesn't have any BVR stuff. But we backed out. 
There were several chances to fire BVR missiles but we didn't.


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## rockstarIN

FSLN said:


> F/A-18 its decades ahead of anything chinese have now.....



In that case, the difference is only the better radar for F18, else everything is same in two sides.


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## kingdurgaking

FSLN said:


> F/A-18 its decades ahead of anything chinese have now.....



F/A-18 has nil chance against Rafael or EFT .. so we go for better...
Name a Feature that F/A-18 posses except the Radar that makes it super duper.. I can give several good features for EFT and Rafale one i will tell now is supercruise without AB


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## Dash

Friends, I didnt mean Mig-29 is actually inferiror in aor superiority roles to Mirages. However IAF chosed MIrage over all the aircrafts in Kargil to carry out precision bombing on bunkers, recon. 

In kargil conditions, where ground attack was more required that air superiority Mirage comes as the best than any other fighter.

Dont we all wonder why IAF didnt use Mig 29s in kargil. Its obvious that the Mig-29s we had that time sisnt have precision bombing abilities.

However based on the requirements, which is ground attack and not airsuperiority, Rafale will beat every one like MIrage did it then.


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## MST

kingdurgaking said:


> F/A-18 has nil chance against Rafael or EFT .. so we go for better...
> Name a Feature that F/A-18 posses except the Radar that makes it super duper.. I can give several good features for EFT and Rafale one i will tell now is supercruise without AB



Buddy, even though I like Rafael and EFT smitten: my personal fav) more I think F/A 18 has the highest chance of winning MMRCA. I think the reasons will not be which is the best fighter around (EFT best Air Superiority and Rafael best overall) but what suits the IAF requirements most and what comes out as the L1 after shortlisting.

Below are some reasons why I think so.

1) IAF as already planned for over 500 Air Superiority fighters (272 MKI + 250 FGFA). Because of this EFT is at a major disadvantage here. Its chances are very low.

2) IAF needs twin engine strike fighters. One of the primary requirements that needs to be fulfilled by MMRCA will be to strike deep into China in case of war. And single engine aircrafts can't do that. So Rafael and F/A 18 have major advantages here.

3) Two of the competing planes in MMRCA are still prototypes. Mig 35 and Grippen. This will be a big disadvantage for them since IAF won't take any risks in MMRCA.

4) Most importantly after the short list F/A 18 has a very high chance of being the L1 bidder. Which further gets boost by considering GE 414 for LCA. EFT and Rafael can't match that.

this is just my 2 cents you can disagree with that


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## kingdurgaking

Dash said:


> Friends, I didnt mean Mig-29 is actually inferiror in aor superiority roles to Mirages. However IAF chosed MIrage over all the aircrafts in Kargil to carry out precision bombing on bunkers, recon.
> 
> In kargil conditions, where ground attack was more required that air superiority Mirage comes as the best than any other fighter.
> 
> Dont we all wonder why IAF didnt use Mig 29s in kargil. Its obvious that the Mig-29s we had that time sisnt have precision bombing abilities.
> 
> However based on the requirements, which is ground attack and not airsuperiority, Rafale will beat every one like MIrage did it then.



As far as my knowledge.. Mig 29 was the first fighter deployed in Kargil to employ Air superiority .. It was the only fighter deployed in very short notice as compared to Mirage.. Mig 29 did escorting of Mirage and Jaguar and kept the F16 at bay.. poor F16.. Mig 29 took from the valley itself because of less range it can cover while Mirages has to take execute from far off land as it had a good range i guess there was a report which stated that Mirage was not able to take off from high altitudes with those heavy bombs...

The reason for choosing Mirage for ground attack is because .. Israeli's had a very good experience of integrating LGB to Mirage and we got that s/w at high cost.. We also did integrate Nukes at that time by ourself  which dassault has pardoned us .. While Mig 29 didnt have any LGB compatibility at that time... Mig 29 doctrine was Air superiority and it achieved its task with ease


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## rockstarIN

kingdurgaking said:


> As far as my knowledge.. Mig 29 was the first fighter deployed in Kargil to employ Air superiority .. It was the only fighter deployed in very short notice as compared to Mirage.. Mig 29 did escorting of Mirage and Jaguar and kept the F16 at bay.. poor F16.. Mig 29 took from the valley itself because of less range it can cover while Mirages has to take execute from far off land as it had a good range i guess there was a report which stated that Mirage was not able to take off from high altitudes with those heavy bombs...
> 
> The reason for choosing Mirage for ground attack is because .. *Israeli's had a very good experience of integrating LGB to Mirage and we got that s/w at high cost.*. *We also did integrate Nukes at that time by ourself*  which dassault has pardoned us .. While Mig 29 didnt have any LGB compatibility at that time... Mig 29 doctrine was Air superiority and it achieved its task with ease



Any link for the above two points?


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## kingdurgaking

MST said:


> this is just my 2 cents you can disagree with that



I agree with you in all aspects.. But for deep striking inside China i dont think MMRCA will be the best choice.. Medium Fighters without Stealth will be a miserable option... MMRCA will be sent for air superiority and SEAD operations .. while MKI will do the damaging task because it is a heavy fighter and secondly it can more Ammo with it compared to MMRCA....even 3 Brahmos can be carried only in MKI.. which wont be feasible with any MMRCA..I doubt even 1 for most of them. While I agree with you on F-18 will be the natural choice because of US dominance and Technology domination ..


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## kingdurgaking

rockstar said:


> Any link for the above two points?



For Israel help i can provide you.. it was a very old article will dig that and i will provide... while for Nuke i read it in BR.. and that info wont be in public domain because of the sensitivity nature.. But Mirages in our fleet has the capability i guess we have articles for that and it is a undisclosed open fact... And we did it because it is our Nuke

*I really couldnt get the article now... I tried searching lot... but that article had reference to Litening pod.. mirage update for LGB with Israel help and how quickly our Armed forces calculated the deviation of errors with live testing of testing of bombs  .. and Jaguar performance on the whole appreciating Mig29... it was a pdf file written by a service man.. i guess it would have been removed from the domain... I read this some 4-5 yrs back* ... In this case i am taking back my words as i have failed to give the link


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## SpArK

*Arms companies raise the pitch for $12bn order​*





Ahead of US President Barack Obamas November 6-8 visit, representatives of various global arms companies are engaged in intensive lobbying to bag the biggest ever military contract worth $12 billion for 126 multi-role fighter jets for the Indian Air Force (IAF).

American aerospace giant Lockheed Martin Corporation arranged a press briefing here to hardsell its F-17 Super Viper single-engine fighter. Meanwhile, the entire board of its competitor, the European Aeronautic Defence and Space Company NV (EADS), manufacturers of the Eurofighter, is in India to stem any chances of American companies that they feel may have a political edge on the eve of their presidents visit.

The F/A-18 Super Hornet from the military arm of Boeing Company is also in the race and it too is leaving no stone unturned to procure the contract.

Analysts in the capital agree that the deal has now attained political overtones and predict it may go the US way if Obama announces, or indicates, some major concessions to India, say, by offering support to Indias bid for a permanent seat on the UN Security Council and removing some snags in the India-US defence purchases deal.

Batting for US arm companies recently, US Assistant Secretary of State for South Asia Robert Blake estimated that 27,000 jobs would be created in the US if they clinch this deal.

Addressing Indias concerns vis-à-vis Pakistan, Lockheed Martin Director Michael R Griswold said his company would provide more advanced F-16IN Super Viper fighters to India. It is a unique fourth-generation fighter and is ready for integration into Indias military force, he said.

*Referring to the planes radar system, his associates claimed that it can detect a plane even as it takes off from a Pakistani airbase. Pushing their case further, they said the single engine that generates 32,000 pounds of thrust also gives greater manoeuvrability during dog fights, unlike the twin-engine aircraft.*

As a deal sweetener, EADS on its part has offered to shift the manufacture of some of its components to India, which is estimated to generate 20,000 jobs.

We will transfer some of our development projects, which are now based in Europe for Eurofighter or other military aircraft, to India. We have already set up a military research and development (R&D) centre in Bangalore, EADS Chief Executive (Defence & Security) Stefan Zoller had recently told Indian journalists in Bonn.

The European defence giant, however, has been quick to deny that its plan to shift operations to India was in any way linked to its bid for the multi-billion contract, saying it was only interested in procuring cheap manpower. But analysts say the move was aimed at putting indirect pressure on the government to award this contract and others in the future.

*The race to win the massive contract had several other contenders, including the MiG-35 from Russia, the Rafale from Dassault Aviation of France, and the JAS 39 Gripen from Sweden. But it is now a toss-up between the American and EADS, with most of the other contenders having more or less lost hope of bagging the contract either due to snags during the technical evaluation stage or due to the absence of political clout.*

Posted on October 28, 2010


Tehelka - India's Independent Weekly News Magazine


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## sancho

softtec said:


> 1)Absolutely wrong.SH has much much stronger radar(don't think radar only for range) and much more advance avionics, ecm etc than f16.US says aim9x is the 5th gen missile.There must be much differences than what paf has.All these will give big advantage in wvr fight.



Where do you see the advantage of the radar in WVR?
Also:


> ...The AIM-9X Sidewinder, developed by Raytheon engineers, entered service in November 2003 with the USAF (lead platform is the F-15C; the USN lead platform is the F/A-18C) and *is a substantial upgrade to the Sidewinder family* featuring an imaging infrared focal plane array (FPA) seeker with claimed 90° off-boresight capability, compatibility with helmet-mounted displays such as the new U.S. Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing System, and a totally new three-dimensional thrust-vectoring control (TVC) system providing increased turn capability over traditional control surfaces. Utilizing the JHMCS, a pilot can point the AIM-9X missile's seeker and "lock on" by simply looking at a target, thereby increasing air combat effectiveness[7]. *It retains the same rocket motor, fuze and warhead of the 9-"Mike*", but its lower drag gives it improved range and speed..



AIM-9 Sidewinder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As I said, it is an upgraded version of the same missile, of course with some advantages, but not like you might think (especially with JHMCS).




softtec said:


> 2) so let SH concentrate more for strike role.*That never means that they will not fight wvr.* And I also said that SH will be superior to Rafale in BVR fight.Now you tell me how did u come to know that SH don't have multi role capability?



See I did understand your point, but it doesn't make sense to say it will not fight in WVR. You simply can't rule out this possibility, especially in our case and we can't leave that to MKI only when we pay so much for the new fighters
I already explained and proved with source that the SH is not superior in BVR, you make the mistake to judge BVR capability only on radar and the Rafale already proved that this is wrong!
I never said the SH has no multi role capabilities, I said it will have problems when facing more maneuverable fighters with similar techs and weapons. 




softtec said:


> 3)*These limited Source code don't help you to replicate anything.*And unlike France for US ,where u will get the best arms in cheaper rate, you don't need to integrate other countries arms.



 When did I said something like that?
You don't need, doesn't mean it wouldn't be an advantage to integrate other weapons, it should be obvious that it is better for IAF to use India LGBs than US LGBs or? Not to mention that the US does not always has the better weapon, what they offer is the cheaper once and more variety.




softtec said:


> 4)Strange..*Engines are one of the most important and one of the biggest part in a fighter.*Tell me what bigger and more important commonality you will get in between mirage and rafale!!


That's why you must admit that the integration of Kaveri-Snecma engine into Rafale would be such a big advantage! 
My point is, that there are several points that must be added to the costs of the SH, that the Rafale does not need, so the cost difference is not that big anymore. Moreover, the more we can customise it, the more we can reduce the costs, which will be a benefit for later upgrades too. 




softtec said:


> 5)Even at home they don't have experience of producing more than 12 fighter a year!


Please, only because they produce only that much fighters now, doesn't mean they couldn't if needed. If they couldn't they would not offer fast delivery of fighters before the initial MMRCA timescale right?
But as I said, it isn't important for us anyway, because only 1 squad should be delivered by them. 


To get this to an end, I think I made my points clear and there is no need to repat them again and again. The SH is not a bad fighter, especially in A2G, but compared to Rafale it lacks behind at several points that makes the higher for the Rafale worth it. If you add the addional advantages of the Rafale deal, in terms of ToT, restriction, commonality..., there can't be a doubt that the Rafale would be the better fighter for us. However, if politics plays the bigger, the SH will win this deal.


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## sancho

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> I just realized I'm arguing with a guy possibly a child who does not know the basics of flight. A guy who can't tell the difference between subsonic and supersonic flight. Where's the sonic boom? A seven second video and you can tell the Rafale has no 'drag issues' - incredible!!


LOL, so that is really all you got? Not even a single proof for all your claims. 
On the other hand we have a SH pilot that says Rafale is more maneuverable, EF that was beaten in dogfights, a very good performance against the F22 in dogfights and even US F16 pilots that were impressed by Rafale before Red Flag and you have nothing. 




kingdurgaking said:


> Surely a twin edge fighter will have more survival option than a single engine fighter right? One missile if it hits the engine altogether it becomes a dead chicken... Where as Twin engine can still hold on and will be able to fly home to some extent dont you think so...
> As per your comment on same weapon and same HMS... WVR will add some advantage for a twin edge dont you think so?



Oh now I see, what you meant, but that is only the case for this very situation right? In the combat itself, a very maneuverable and light weight F16 with a good T/W ratio can be be a big problem for a SH, if it's dependent on the flight performance only. 



Dash said:


> Friends, I didnt mean Mig-29 is actually inferiror in aor superiority roles to Mirages. However IAF chosed MIrage over all the aircrafts in Kargil to carry out precision bombing on bunkers, recon.
> 
> In kargil conditions, where ground attack was more required that air superiority Mirage comes as the best than any other fighter.
> 
> Dont we all wonder why IAF didnt use Mig 29s in kargil. Its obvious that the Mig-29s we had that time sisnt have precision bombing abilities.
> 
> However based on the requirements, which is ground attack and not airsuperiority, Rafale will beat every one like MIrage did it then.



Hi Dash, we used the M2K in Kargil because it was the only fighter that was able to do precision strike attacks, although it was meant for A2A roles like the Mig too. The Russian fighters wasn't able to drop PGMs then and strikes turned out to be less effective. The Mig 29s were pure A2A fighters and will get real A2G capabilities only with the new upgrade, so the M2Ks even then should multi role capabilties and the upgrade will make them even better.


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## sancho

Here an interview of the Saab director, talking about the NG and Sea Gripen from an Brazilian blog (google translated):

Google Übersetzer

Interesting, but also confirming that the Gripen NG is only a demonstrator with limeted capabilities and Gripen E/F is still far from beeing ready. That's why they needed the Gripen C/Ds to do the main parts of the trials here and if the E/F needs that long, I think the Sea Gripen is not a real alternative for IN too, if it was at all (Saab wasn't invited initially).
With the out of F35 for IN, it gets even clearer that Rafale and the SH will be the frontrunners in that competition too, so a combined deal is more than likely.


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## FSLN

sancho said:


> very good performance against the F22 in dogfights r.


 a F-22 pilot will never give you the chance to pray before you're dead.... and you talk about DogFights?..


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## dbc

sancho said:


> LOL, so that is really all you got? Not even a single proof for all your claims.
> On the other hand we have a SH pilot that says Rafale is more maneuverable, EF that was beaten in dogfights, a very good performance against the F22 in dogfights and even US F16 pilots that were impressed by Rafale before Red Flag and you have nothing.



You've been debunked and dismissed. 

For the rest, here is an interesting read from a well known aviation journalist and author of several books Jon Lake. The article is less than a year old (Nov '09) but two things stood out, France has had no success selling this aircraft despite sweetening the deal. Singapore, Korea, Saudi, Kuwait, Morocco and Oman are some of the countries that turned down the Rafale. The Moroccans were offered the Rafale for next to nothing, I'm amazed they decided to go with the F-16's instead at a price of 2.5 Billion $'s. 

Either the French burnt their bridges with former Mirage customers OR something is wrong with the Rafale.

The second interesting revelation is the comment about under powered engine and the scathing criticism from the French DGA (2005) Direction g&#233;n&#233;rale de l'armement (French MOD) about the radar being 'fatally flawed' and OSF being 'obsolete'. All things considered its NOT a surprise the Rafale can't find a customer and the French have slowed production to the bare minimum. 

I've said this several times before, the Rafale program is riddled with problems. It is still salvageable if the Indian's or the Emirati's are willing to infuse cash and allow a few years for the platform to mature. 

Arabian Aerospace - D-Days for Rafale



> The UAE wants an operational active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, a helmet-mounted sight and display system, an advanced forward sector infrared search and track system, a laser designation/targeting pod, an advanced defensive aids system (DAS), and a full spectrum of air-to-air and air-to-ground weapons, including the MBDA Meteor beyond-visual-range air-air missile, and Scalp and Al Hakim ASMs.
> 
> Most of these improvements and enhancements are planned for French Rafales and work is already under way on the AESA version of the RBE2 radar, and on integrating the Damocles targeting pod. *But integration of the Gerfaut helmet sight and enhanced OSF remain unfunded, and Rafale&#8217;s Systeme de Protection et d&#8217;Evitement des Conduites de Tir du RAfale (SPECTRA) DAS remains some way short of its originally planned capabilities.*
> 
> Integration of Meteor on the Rafale is currently scheduled to begin in 2013-14 for service entry in 2017-18, and though it has been suggested that this date could be brought forward if necessary, this could be too late for the UAE.
> 
> *But the key &#8216;missing feature&#8217; for the UAE is a more powerful engine.* The UAE&#8217;s requirement emphasizes long-range interdiction, and the air force is interested in operating the aircraft in some heavy configurations. *The Rafale has been criticized in some quarters for being under-powered*, and the existing 75 kN SNECMA M88-2 engine may not be ideally suited for such configurations in the hot-and-high conditions that may be experienced in the Middle East.







> According to Defence Analysis and Flight Daily News, the *Singapore evaluation also reportedly revealed problems with Rafale's reliability and availability, and that the aircraft failed to demonstrate claimed radar performance or its claimed ability to supercruise. *





> There have, however, been increasingly critical comments about Rafale from members of the National Assembly's Finance and Defence Commissions, and there have been reports of disagreements between Dassault and DGA about cost increases and obsolescence. According to Defence Analysis (p.17, Vol 8.No.12 December 2005) Dassault have called the *RBE2 radar 'fatally flawed' alleging that its range was "inadequate"* and averring that the Rafale therefore relied on AWACS support to overcome this. *The DGA also described Rafale's OSF ("Optronique Secteur Frontal") as "obsolescent" and production has been cut back to just 48 units, rather than the planned number, which was to have been sufficient to equip all F1 and F2 versions.*


Electronic Aviation - Dassault Rafale - Problems




> L'arm&#233;e br&#233;silienne, toujours influente au Br&#233;sil, plus de vingt ans apr&#232;s la fin de la dictature militaire, estime le Rafale trop on&#233;reux (6,2 milliards de dollars, contre une offre du constructeur su&#233;dois Saab de 4,5 milliards de dollars) et surdimensionn&#233; pour les besoins du pays.
> 
> La pr&#233;f&#233;rence des militaires va ainsi au Gripen NG de Saab et en deuxi&#232;me position au F/A-18 Super Hornet de l'Am&#233;ricain Boeing, le Rafale ne venant qu'en troisi&#232;me place.



http://www.latribune.fr/entreprises...u-bresil-compliquent-la-vente-du-rafale-.html

Here is a French source that clearly states the Brazilian military prefers the Gripen, Super Hornet over the Rafale. The report also states Brazil beleives the Rafale is too expensive at 6.2 Billion USD, 1.7 Billion USD more than the Gripen.



> Invit&#233; &#224; son tour devant la m&#234;me commission, le 13 octobre, le chef d'&#233;tat-major de l'arm&#233;e de l'Air, le g&#233;n&#233;ral Jean-Paul Palomeros, a plaid&#233; pour la r&#233;novation des Mirage 2000D, &#171; afin de permettre aux flottes d'avions de combat fran&#231;aises de respecter, &#224; l'horizon 2020, un format coh&#233;rent avec nos objectifs strat&#233;giques &#187; et cela, avec &#171; un co&#251;t unitaire modeste, de l'ordre de 10 millions d'euros par appareil &#187;, &#233;tant donn&#233; que &#171; le contribuable a d&#233;j&#224; consenti l'essentiel de l'effort pour cette flotte



Finally, a more recent (Oct 2010) plea by no less than *General Jean-Paul Palomeros Chief of the French Air Force* urging the government to fund the upgrade of the Mirage 2000D criticizing the acquisition of more Rafale's at the expense of Mirage 2000D upgrades required for roles and missions the Rafale is currently not equipped to perform - says a lot about the much touted omni role capabilities of the Rafale.

http://www.opex360.com/2010/10/19/l...-le-report-de-la-renovation-des-mirage-2000d/

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## kingofkings

Eurofighter Says Forget F-35, Typhoon Squares Up With Raptor!

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## kingofkings

UPDATE: Eurofighter AESA Radar Full-Op By 2015


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## redpearl75

EFT will be a waste if we go for that....


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## KALKI

redpearl75 said:


> EFT will be a waste if we go for that....



Let's see:

Mig-35 - Not good enough
F-18/16 - US tech....restrictions...no full tot etc. (example recent C-130J deal)

Now among ET, Gripen and rafael...i think ET is the best by far.


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## SQ8

Are there any elections, Mid term or otherwise coming up in India?
Or any of the nations that house the companies bidding for the MRCA?
Since the evaluations are all complete..
even the JSF flyoff did not take this long to conclude who won.


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## marcos98

*If India picks Eurofighter, it will create thousands of jobs here *
BY: LIVEMINT

Eurofighter GmbH, formed in 1986, is a consortium of three companies- Alenia Aeronautica, BAE Systems and the European Aeronautic Defence and Space Company (EADS). It is one of the world&#8217;s leading manufacturers of advanced fighter aircraft, and one of six companies in contention for the $10 billion for the 126 aircraft Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) deal. Their Supervisory Board of Eurofighter met in India for the first time on October 25 & 26. Mint met Bernhard Gerwert, CEO CASSIDIAN Air Systems & Chairman Supervisory Board, Enzo Casolini, CEO, Eurofighter GmbH, Enrique Barrientos, CEO Cassidian Spain, Christopher Boardman, managing director Typhoon Mission Support & International Programmes, BAE Systems and Maurizio de Mitri, senior vice-president Commercial Defence Aircraft, Alenia Aeronautica, for an interview.

Eurojet&#8217;s EJ200 lost out in the race to be the engine for the Mark-II version of the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA). What do you think went against the EJ200? The consultant for Eurojet, reportedly had privileged information on the bids. Would this not dent your chances for the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) deal, considering the Eurofighter uses the same engine?

Bernhard Gerwert: We were not involved in Eurojet&#8217;s campaign. The EJ200 of course, being the engine, is important for the Eurofighter. But we do not have enough knowledge about the offer of Eurojet for the LCA. We however recognize that the decision has been taken and the GE engine was declared as the lowest bidder. We have no shareholding in Eurojet. It is a supplier for us, and a totally independent company, so I believe it will not affect our campaign for the MMRCA.

By when do you see a down selection or a shortlist coming, if at all? By when do you see the final MMRCA deal being signed?

Bernhard Gerwert: I would be pleased if I were in a position to answer that. What we know is that the flight evaluation is over and that the Indian Air Force (IAF) has submitted the report to the ministry of defence. The offset offers are being discussed. We have received queries on our offset offer. So the process is progressing well. I expect the commercial envelopes to be opened soon, in the next few weeks or months.

How did the Eurofighter perform at the field trials? Were you satisfied with the performance? One understands that there were a couple of minor glitches. Any comments?

Bernhard Gerwert: We are quite satisfied with Eurofighter&#8217;s performance. The feedback which we have got is quite promising. I think we have done a good job in India, with the support of the air forces in Europe. Overall I think it went well. Our own feedback for the performance is quite positive. I cannot talk about the feedback that our competitors received.

Conventional wisdom suggests that at the end of the day, the decision on the MMRCA will be a political decision, that will be taken, keeping in mind India&#8217;s long term strategic interests. In such a scenario, do you see a realistic chance that the Typhoon will win?

Bernhard Gerwert: If we thought we did not have a realistic chance to win the MMRCA campaign, we would not be here. You can imagine that such a campaign is a huge investment for us all. The team has been working in India for the last two years. The flight evaluation trials have cost us a lot of money. Do you believe we would do that if we thought we did not have a realistic chance of winning the deal? So, without any doubts, we strongly believe we have a good chance.

There is talk of cuts to defence programs in Europe. How will it impact Eurofighter? Italy, in fact, reduced its order of Eurofighter jets by 25 and the Germans grounded their fleet citing security concerns. How will that impact you? Does it not affect how the aircraft is perceived?

Enzo Casolini: Officially, there is no document that suggests that Italy has reduced its order for the Eurofighter. Thus far, it is mere speculation. We have a total commitment of 620 aircraft, under the so called four nation &#8220;umbrella contract,&#8221; and we&#8217;re sticking to that till someone officially comes to us and tells us they don&#8217;t have the money and so have to reduce or cancel the contract. As for your other question, the fleet was grounded in all the countries due to a problem related to the ejection system, which was solved within a week. The same ejection system is used on the LCA as well. As for perceptions, we have a track record of 100.000 flying hours with just one accident. So, our safety record is much better than the others.

Christopher Boardman: The UK has had a defence review, whose results have been announced and are now being implemented. The UK has had to make some tough decisions in the current economic climate, but its chosen to retire its older aircraft, the Harrier and has reaffirmed its investment commitment into Eurofighter. From the very beginning, the Eurofighter was designed to be upgraded to greater capability, and the UK government is now committed to that. There is an expectation that the Eurofighter will carry the bigger defence burden as we go forward in time.

You have reportedly said that if you win the contract, you will move avionics operations and a few thousand jobs from Europe to India. In light of the above situation, isn&#8217;t that a bit too far fetched? Isn&#8217;t avionics too high end a domain to be moved to India?

Bernhard Gerwert: Let me correct you. We already have an EADS engineering centre in Bangalore, which was started three years ago for Airbus. In the beginning of this year, we have also opened our military engineering centre in Bangalore. We have hired twenty engineers there, but our intention is to ramp up our strength to 250-300 people by 2012. This program is independent from the Eurofighter. So, for the moment, we are not talking of moving thousands of jobs to India. If, however, the Eurofighter is selected, then, we would be contractually bound to affect a sixty percent technology transfer. Now, in Europe, the Eurofighter program employs roughly one hundred thousand people. We have roughly 400 main sub-contractors in Europe. So, if India decides for the Eurofighter, the technology transfer clause would mean that we would create thousands of jobs in India.

How do you plan to meet your offset obligations, assuming you win the MMRCA deal? Can you specify what projects will you undertake for this?

Bernhard Gerwert: Our consortium has offered a lot of different projects, which will help us to meet our offset obligations. Our offer is under consideration by the offset committee. But I cannot specify what we have offered.

Eurofighter is reportedly in talks with Indian firms like Mahindra and Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), &#8220;to plug them into the consortium&#8217;s global supply chain.&#8221; Could you please elaborate on this? What synergies are you looking at? How would it help you?

Bernhard Gerwert: We must make a distinction here. Now, in Europe, we have &#8220;national champions.&#8221; BAE is a national champion for the UK, EADS-CASA in Spain, Finmeccanica in Italy and EADS in Germany. If we win the MMRCA deal, HAL will, most probably, be the national champion in India. In addition, we would require strong partner suppliers for the program. Companies like Mahindra and L&T and others could then become important partners. In addition, we might have to involve a lot of smaller companies for the same.

India&#8217;s relationship with most European countries continues to be bilateral rather than multilateral. India does not directly deal with the European Parliament. The other five contenders for the MMRCA belong to specific countries with which India has strong bilateral ties, unlike Eurofighter, which is a consortium of several European countries. Do you think that can have a negative bearing on your chances to win the contract?

Enzo Casolini: We think that rather than being a weakness, it would be a strength. Four countries are involved in this project, and so instead of being just bilateral, it will foster a quadrilateral relationship.

Eurofighter is largely perceived as being EADS, as it is the only consortium partner that is sene promoting it; it is often said that the Italians and Germans have their own agendas; the French always promote Dassault over the Eurofighter and the US is seen as promoting the Hawk over the Eueofighter. There is also a NATO linkage; 5&#37; of EADS is held by the Kremlin, and that pits it against the US lobby, making your job tougher. Any comments?

Enzo Casolini: In Eurofighter, we designate &#8220;elite companies&#8221; and &#8220;elite nations&#8221; for specific jobs. The only reason you see EADS more than the others is because in India, EADS is our &#8220;champion.&#8221;

Bernhard Gerwert: The Russians are no longer shareholders, their participation ended years ago. Yes, EADS is not getting any support for this deal from the French government. This is obvious, as Rafale (Dassault), a French company, is our competitor and is getting French support. The leading aerospace companies in Europe are behind the Eurofighter program. Germany, Italy, Spain and the UK are extremely strong nations that are backing us. The advantage of working with us is we know how to partner with others, our program is fundamentally a partnership. It might be hard to imagine that the right wing comes from Italy and the left wing from Spain, with assembly lines in different countries. But it works excellent, and we have the best combat aircraft in the world. This is the strong advantage we have.

Christopher Boardman: In BAE Systems, we are absolutely clear, India is of strategic importance. We want to be part of India and we want India to be part of our company. We see this program as a potential game change, and we support EADS on anything and everything that is necessary. So, I understand the perception. We are trying to simplify the interface with the Indian government. But, be assured that we are one and we all have our individual and collective interests. We have worked collaboratively in India for forty years and over 1.000 aircraft of British origin has been produced in India thanks to this strong relationship

There have however been several cost over-runs in the Eurofighter program. What do you have to say about that?

Christopher Boardman: You can take up any big defence program in the world, and they have all had cost over-runs at some point or the other? These are highly complex programs and cost over-runs do happen. In the US, in fact, they are quite used about it. In Europe, national audits have found that almost our programs have met their targets. The contractors in Europe will tell you that we deliver within the set cost parameters.

Bernhard Gerwert: On the production contract for the Eurofighter, we do not have any cost over-runs. We signed the contract in 1998, and we have exactly been within our cost parameters. This was even confirmed last year.

How would the Euro-US$ equation impact your price competitiveness especially vis-&#224;-vis your American competitors?

Bernhard Gerwert: We strongly believe that with the current exchange rate, we are okay. It does not give us much competitive advantage.

Christopher Boardman: If this were a question of 2-3 years, the exchage rate question would be pertinent, but we are looking at a forty year commitment, a period so long that we cannot predict how exchange rates would move.

Boeing has said that it was not satisfied with the work done by Alenia Aeronautica SpA, on its 787 Dreamliner and that it had &#8221;discovered flaws in the workmanship on the horizontal stabilizers where they connect to the tail area of the plane. That required inspections on all of the test flight planes and some of the already-completed production aircraft.&#8221; What do you have to say about that?

Maurizio de Mitri : It is not a big problem. These kinds of problems are quite common for a development stage in a complex and very modern program like the 787.

The Airbus A400M military transporter is reportedly facingtechnical and financial problems. Reports say that it is uncertain to win the $35 billion Pentagon contract for 179 tanker aircraft? What do you have to say on that?

Bernhard Gerwert : Yes, that was the case until last year, but that has now been resolved. We have renegotiated the A400M contract and the first flights in spring 2010 have been very successful.

Airbus did not loose the contract for the tanker aircraft, they in fact won it. Airbus won the contract, but the US government canceled it, after Airbus was selected. Now, there is a new Request for Proposal (RFP) on the table, and Airbus has answered it.

How have the Typhoons been doing against the Su-30MkI at the war games at Kalaikunda?

Christopher Boardman: The exercises are going on between the Royal Air Force (RAF) and the Indian Air Force (IAF). Since the exercises are still on, it would not be proper to pre-judge the performance.


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## KALKI

santro said:


> Are there any elections, Mid term or otherwise coming up in India?
> Or any of the nations that house the companies bidding for the MRCA?
> Since the evaluations are all complete..
> even the JSF flyoff did not take this long to conclude who won.



The IAF has submitted its report to GoI, final call is for GoI to make.

Although I seriously hope that F-18/16 do not win.....recent C-130j deal is an example of what can happen while dealing with US in high-technology defenceequipments.


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## SpArK

Looks like the race is with Eads and Boieng..

Nothing about Rafale has been heard. Seems they have given up hope and are content with Mirage updates with 2 billions

Let EF win.. jobs and the best one after Rafale.


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## redpearl75

Even I don't for Super Hornets, though that's a great machine but again American whom we can not rely upon in terms of tech transfer... They delivered us the USS Trenton with major deficiencies and later only apologized for that and then took the ownership od making it up to the required standards, Now this C 130 thing and who knows what they have in mind for the F/A 18s that they plan to deliver to us. F 16 is trash so no way Im gonna talk about that, Gripen is too light but I do concider that as it has great weapon options to offer, Mig 35 again is not up to the standards that IAF requires and lacks on weapon options and weapon loading factor, EFT is an ASF and we don't need one as of now as we already are going to have MKIs and FGFA in the near future filling that necessity and moreover it's damn expensive.... Rafale is the most potent option but I don't know for what reasons we are not getting enought positive vows for the same.. Rafale has been my favorite since the very first moment when I came to know about the MRCA thing... It's very agile, good avionics package, but again as death bu chocolate said that France has damaged it's reputation in terms of afterservice or any further developement aspect with the countries it had sold Mirages to.... India is one of them so currently it's still unclear what comes as a final judgement... I just hope if it's F/A 18, US is given no option to play with the deal or else we are going to get screwd.. Rest all is just a matter of hoping for the best indeed...


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## sudhir007

iRobot said:


> Let's see:
> 
> Now among ET, Gripen and rafael...*i think ET is the best by far.*


if it is that much superior then why their own partner reducing their order and want to buy F-35 As their ceo say it is better then F-35 and comparable with F-22 why not they get any export order till now except UAE. and country like Israel, Japan, Uk.....etc want F-22 but USA denies. and F-35 has 1000 f/a export order in their pocket still in testing phase.

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## KEETARP

f414 selection for hf_tejas has certainly given thrust to sh chances . As a package with raytheon+ge+boeing for offsets and navy's req for new jets , Sh fulfills it all. With hal already manufacturing some part of airframe under licence sh will be hard to beat. No naval version of f16+eurofighter exists or is planned plus neither of them share engine tech with other iaf jets, this sets them back substaintly . I still feel sh + gripen would be in final list as i predicted back in march. Snmeca assistance in turbofan for lca+mca does gives rafale points , but all in all mig35 v rafale for final spot esp after the good vibes mig29k got from navy .


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## kingdurgaking

sudhir007 said:


> if it is that much superior then why their own partner reducing their order and want to buy F-35 As their ceo say it is better then F-35 and comparable with F-22 why not they get any export order till now except UAE. and country like Israel, Japan, Uk.....etc want F-22 but USA denies. and F-35 has 1000 f/a export order in their pocket still in testing phase.



EFT T3 is a multi role fighter and it is optimized for Air superiority thats all... still it can do ground bombing.. Still it can deliver PGM's with precision.. As far the interview is concerned No one said they are reducing the orders as of now.... And for the European buying F-35 it will be for bombing and they still depend on EFT for Air superiority ... Further UK is buying only carrier Version..


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## SQ8

iRobot said:


> The IAF has submitted its report to GoI, final call is for GoI to make.
> 
> Although I seriously hope that F-18/16 do not win.....recent C-130j deal is an example of what can happen while dealing with US in high-technology defenceequipments.



Well.. the F-18 is being offered with full ToT.
But I now do feel that the F-18 is a little too much for the MRCA. The SH falls into the category of a heavy fighter.. 
The EF , Rafale and Mig all meet the mid tier standard..
The gripen.. as much as I like it.. is still handicapped by its size.
Eventually though.. it will be the balanced offer.. in terms of aircraft capabilities, reliability , Tech access, cost and support that should be the deciding factor.

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## sancho

kingofkings said:


> UPDATE: Eurofighter AESA Radar Full-Op By 2015



Once again the official confirmation, that AESA will not be ready in time and I'm still waiting for a decision about T3As weapons. 

EF's chances in Japan should be better, but Japan will face way more political pressure from the US, so even there the chances for another export are not good.


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## sancho

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Either the French burnt their bridges with former Mirage customers OR something is wrong with the Rafale.



Or you see it as every realistically thinking person and keep in mind that these kind of competitions mainly will be decided by politics, that's why several European countries decided for F35, although Gripen, Rafale were found out to be better, or more suited. Why the F18SH has good chances in MMRCA, why Rafale will win in Brazil and why Romania recently rejected EFs in favour of F16s too. And that's exactly the reason why I support the Rafale in MMRCA, because it is the most suited fighter for Indian forces and I don't want political reasons to win.




Death.By.Chocolate said:


> The second interesting revelation is the comment about under powered engine and the scathing criticism from the French DGA (2005) Direction générale de l'armement (French MOD) about the radar being 'fatally flawed' and OSF being 'obsolete'. All things considered its NOT a surprise the Rafale can't find a customer and the French have slowed production to the bare minimum...



Again you making the same old mistakes! You bring up specs, capabilities and issues that have nothing to do with MMRCA, or the fighters that are on offer in the competition.
Just like you always take specs from the F18 Hornet, to show that the Super Hornet has good A2A performance too, you now take issues from early Rafale versions to bash it, which is a poor try btw.

Rafale had problems with the IRST in the early versions, the TV channel instead was praised for its capabilities, also the only problem with the PESA radar was less range compared to other radars of that age.
The Singapore competiton was in 2005, or 06 and the Rafale offered then was the F2, already multi role capable, but with PESA radar only and not all features and capabilties integrated. Rafale even presented an RBE 2 AESA prototype but it would have taken too long till it would have been available. The EF had similar issues, only on a worse level, because it proved excellent A2A performance, but with nearly no A2G capability at all. The production was so delayed that the availability could not be guaranteed, which is why it wasn't shortlisted to the final stage, unlike the Rafale.
This simple fact that Rafale wasn't rejected because of technical problems, or capability issues, but was shortlisted to the final stages after the technical evaluations, in nearly any competition it was fielded, proof you are completelly wrong! The last stage of these competitions is always about costs and additional advantages, like politics, or offsets which are the real downsides of Rafale. 

Regarding UAE, it is totally normal for them that they want a more improved version, instead of an off the shelf version. The Mirage 2000-9 was more upgraded than Mirage from French forces, the F16 B60 is more upgraded than US F16s and they will of course go the same way with Rafale. Btw, you totally missed the real point in your quote:



> But the key missing feature for the UAE is a more powerful engine. *The UAEs requirement emphasizes long-range interdiction, and the air force is interested in operating the aircraft in some heavy configurations.* The Rafale has been criticized in some quarters for being under-powered, and the existing 75 kN SNECMA M88-2 engine may not be ideally suited for such configurations in the hot-and-high conditions that may be experienced in the Middle East.



So they don't want higher thrust for A2A, but for heavy A2G loads! They want a Rafale that can carry 2 x 2000l, 3 x Scalp missiles and 6 x AAMs, which is pretty much the heaviest config that you can think about.
In A2A on the other hand, in the same hot conditions, the Rafale proved showed exellent perfomances in BVR and dogfights against F22s and EFs. So once again, the Rafale is not underpowered at all, but the UAE as useual wants the maximum that is possible. 



Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Here is a French source that clearly states the Brazilian military prefers the Gripen, Super Hornet over the Rafale. The report also states Brazil beleives the Rafale is too expensive at 6.2 Billion USD, 1.7 Billion USD more than the Gripen.



 Bad girl, why did you left out the important part?:

Google translated


> Dassault Hope hangs by a thread: *the preference that the Brazilian president has repeatedly pronounced for the Rafale* through transfer of technology promised "no restrictions" by French President Nicolas Sarkozy during a visit to Brasilia in September. "We do not negotiate an airplane, we are negotiating the purchase of a technology package," he recalled early April, *the Brazilian Minister of Defense Nelson Jobim, who also supports the French offer*.



So the Brazilian President and defense minister supports the Rafale!
That's exactly what I meant before, that these competitons are decided mainly by politics, for Brazil the Gripen NG might be enough, because the country has no real enemy, Saab offers participation of Brazilian companies and it is more cost-effective, but from an political and strategical point of view, France is clearly the better choice to team up with than Sweden. The Brazilan officials want a reliable strategic partner for the future, that can offer political and industrial advantages, besides a lot of arms and techs. That's why they are ready to pay more for the fighter than they might have to, because it's worth it. In MMRCA, the US is the political choice, but for our forces and our industry, teaming up with the French is way more beneficial!




Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Finally, a more recent (Oct 2010) plea by no less than General Jean-Paul Palomeros Chief of the French Air Force urging the government to fund the upgrade of the Mirage 2000D criticizing the acquisition of more Rafale's at the expense of Mirage 2000D upgrades required *for roles and missions the Rafale is currently not equipped to perform - says a lot about the much touted omni role capabilities of the Rafale.*



First you left out the important part, now you fake the point of the article! The only part of the whole report where Rafale is actually mentioned, is the part of additional orders. The article doesn't talk about Rafale and it's capabilities at all, it is about the decision of french MoD to order Rafale, although it would have been more important for the airforce to upgrade a higher number of Mirage 2000Ds, which will stay in service till 2020/25. That's a budget issue of the French MoD, but has absolutely nothing to do with Rafales capabilities!


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## sancho

@ DBC

In addition, if you want to find problems, or issues on Rafale, you should take the Rafale F3+ version as a base, because that's the version on offer in India, Brazil and Swiss as you can see here:

Rafale in Swiss competition 


One more point, although the article confirms Supercruise for Rafale, I only saw one offical source so far, that gave some more details about it and even I am unsure about this capability, that's why I never took it as an argument for Rafale. If it proved this capability during the trials in India, it would be just another great addition to all the other advantages, but even if not, it is clearly the best choice for India!


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## marcos98

*Lockheed Touts Engine Advantage In Indian Bid​*Lockheed Touts Engine Advantage In Indian Bid | AVIATION WEEK

NEW DELHI  As President Barack Obamas visit to India draws closer, Lockheed Martin is talking up its offering for the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) competition.

Lockheed Martins F-16IN is powered by the GE F-110-132A engine. GE recently won a contract to provide F-414 engines for Indias Light Combat Aircraft (LCA). Michael Griswold, Lockheeds director of advanced development programs, says the LCA win is a good sign that the U.S. can meet its export control requirements. GE brought the best engine on the table at the lowest cost, he says.

GE F-110-132A is the most powerful engine of all the contenders of the [126-aircraft] MMRCA bid, Griswold says. Technology insertions for the engine include blisk fan, radial augmentor and a low-drag nozzle.

Rival Boeings F/A-18 carries twin F-414 engines.

Addressing concerns by some in the Indian Air Force about a single-engine aircraft, Griswold says: The trend is toward single-engine design. ... These engines are so safe and there are savings in reliability and maintainability.

Griswold was not willing to comment on Indias fifth-gen fighter being developed with Russia, and whether it would restrict future procurement.

The architecture of the F-16IN, which enables growth, includes commercial-off-the-shelf processors, a fiber-optic network and digital video for flexible and situational awareness for the pilot, Lockheed Martin says.

The company has already signed agreements with more than 30 companies in India to fulfill offset requirements should it be awarded the contract.

One potential stumbling block for U.S. competitors is the Communications Interoperability and Security Memorandum of Agreement (CISMOA), which India has yet to sign. The U.S. will not allow the export of certain sensitive items until India signs.

Both the Indian air force and the U.S. Air Force have communicated on this and both clearly understand the implications of CISMOA and how it affects the MMRCA, a senior official tells AVIATION WEEK.


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## mikey

decide yourself DBC F/A-18 E/F and rafale ---- thrust/weight ratio,payload and hardpoints


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## Dash

BENNY said:


> Looks like the race is with Eads and Boieng..
> 
> Nothing about Rafale has been heard. Seems they have given up hope and are content with Mirage updates with 2 billions
> 
> Let EF win.. jobs and the best one after Rafale.


Sometime dear friend Benny-), the least expected of all wins the contract. That was the case of GEF141 and may be Dassult is playing it cool.


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## indushek

Dash said:


> Sometime dear friend Benny-), the least expected of all wins the contract. That was the case of GEF141 and may be Dassult is playing it cool.



By that do u mean Mig-35 or F-16??


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## Dash

indushek said:


> By that do u mean Mig-35 or F-16??


They are not least expected....

They are out...


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## Indian-Devil

There is no doubt Rafale is omni role AC, but there are some issues which goes against its selection in MRCA. 
First of all as per IAF's Request for Information, if any contender qualifies the given requirements then later lowest bidder will be choosen. Same way it happenend in LCA engine selection process.
And Rafale is one of the most costliest AC among MRCA contender list.
Second issue is Uncle Sam's pressure and India is going for most of the US equipments, through FMS regardless of their price and other contender's price in market. See for C-17 Globemaster, P-8 for navy. No doubt they are one of the finest aircraft but there should be other contenders also for evaluations.
Third is again political benefit from US if F-18 is selected (F-16 not sure).

Although still my first prefrence is Rafale only, I really wish to see it in IAF colors in coming years.


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## tvsram1992

talks ve been going with russia.
or we may confirm the deal during obama's visit in november


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## somu

Being poor is no crime. But being a slave is a crime. How can you file status report to Americans under the LSA? 
Vice Admiral Raman Puri

India please don't go behind USA.
Look what they have done to us on C-17 deal, they denied the start of tech. Same will happen in MMRCA.

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## redpearl75

Dash said:


> They are not least expected....
> 
> They are out...



Those are not at all expected.... lol


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## jha

*Get a big pie out of India's defence market: Rep Sen to Obama*

Republican Party has asked US President Barack Obama to seek a large pie of India's estimated USD 35 billion defense expansion plan when he meets Prime Minister Manmohan Singh in New Delhi next week.

In a letter to President Obama, Republican Senator Ed Royce asked him to build on the defence co-operation between India and the US that was initiated by his predecessors Bill Clinton and continued by George W Bush.

"As you know, six foreign companies are competing to sell India 126 new multi-role combat aircraft in a deal that could be worth as much as USD 11 billion. India's selection process for this aircraft is advancing, with two US companies under active consideration," senior Republican lawmaker from California Ed Royce said in a letter to Obama.

Senator Royce, in his letter of October 26, said heads of state from France, Russia and the United Kingdom were moving aggressively to advocate for their countries' aircraft proposal.


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## SpArK

*Rafale Vs EuroFighter Typhoons​*


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## SpArK




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## SpArK




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## SpArK




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## SpArK



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## SpArK



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## kingofkings

Eurofighter pledges partnership opportunities in bid to secure MMRCA contract

The supervisory board of Eurofighter met in New Delhi during 25-26 October to boost the group's bid to secure the Indian Air Force's USD10 billion Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) competition.

Eurofighter said in a statement that the supervisory board will support the MMRCA campaign as well as propose "additional opportunities for industrial and technological co-operation" to potential Indian partners.

The supervisory board consists of chief executive officers (CEOs) from Eurofighter partners EADS, BAE Systems and Finmeccanica subsidiary Alenia Aeronautica.

The significance of the meeting was outlined by Bernhard Gerwert, chairman of the supervisory board and CEO of EADS subsidiary Cassidian Air Systems. He said: "The Eurofighter supervisory board is meeting in New Delhi to underline the importance we attach to integrating India into the programme as a true and equal industrial partner."
133 of 400 words
Copyright © IHS (Global) Limited, 2010
End of non-subscriber extract


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## sancho

The article was posted before, but confirms what I said about the difference between what the EF partners offers and what EADS (Germany/France) offers separately for India:

If India picks Eurofighter, it will create thousands of jobs here - Corporate News - livemint.com



> You have reportedly said that if you win the contract, you will move avionics operations and a few thousand jobs from Europe to India. In light of the above situation, isnt that a bit too far fetched? Isnt avionics too high end a domain to be moved to India?
> 
> Bernhard Gerwert: Let me correct you. We already have *an EADS engineering centre in Bangalore, which was started three years ago for Airbus. In the beginning of this year, we have also opened our military engineering centre in Bangalore. We have hired twenty engineers there, but our intention is to ramp up our strength to 250-300 people by 2012. This program is independent from the Eurofighter.* So, for the moment, we are not talking of moving thousands of jobs to India. If, however, the Eurofighter is selected, then, we would be contractually bound to affect a sixty percent technology transfer. Now, in Europe, the Eurofighter program employs roughly one hundred thousand people. We have roughly 400 main sub-contractors in Europe. So, if India decides for the Eurofighter, the technology transfer clause would mean that we would create thousands of jobs in India.




So these engineering centres are from EADS alone, not from the EF partners and what they offer is to outsource a part of the avionic production for all EFs to India, obviously for reduce production costs. That is nothing special, or makes us an equal partner and any vendor would take this chance to reduce costs too. 
It would be interesting if they really say what the partnerships would mean for India, where do we would have at least some say and where could we influence the project to our needs? That are the important points of such a partnership, but these are not clear (at least in the media) so far.


Also interesting is this part:



> Eurojets EJ200 lost out in the race to be the engine for the Mark-II version of the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA). What do you think went against the EJ200? The consultant for Eurojet, reportedly had privileged information on the bids. Would this not dent your chances for the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) deal, considering the Eurofighter uses the same engine?
> 
> Bernhard Gerwert: We were not involved in Eurojets campaign. The EJ200 of course, being the engine, is important for the Eurofighter. But we do not have enough knowledge about the offer of Eurojet for the LCA. We however recognize that the decision has been taken and the GE engine was declared as the lowest bidder. We have no shareholding in Eurojet. It is a supplier for us, and a totally independent company, so I believe it will not affect our campaign for the MMRCA.



He is not denying that there was such an issue with a consultant and is trying to sperate the EF consortium and Eurojet. But that basically confirms the report about the bribery and why GE was selected right?


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## marcos98

*Eurofighter keen to open alliance to India *
BY: ft.com

The Eurofighter consortium &#8211; the UK, Germany, Spain and Italy &#8211; is considering inviting India as the fifth partner in its defence alliance should it opt for the Typhoon multirole combat aircraft as part of the modernisation of its air force.

The Typhoon is vying against jet fighters from the US, Russia, Sweden and France to supply the Indian Air Force with 126 aircraft, worth an estimated $11bn. The competition is expected to be decided in the first half of next year.

A bold move to open the consortium to India, a nation seeking to build its indigenous supply of weaponry, is a sweetener for New Delhi to buy the Typhoon, which is viewed as more expensive than rivals.

Discussion of bringing India into Eurofighter coincides with a top-level military exercise between the UK&#8217;s Royal Air Force Typhoons and the IAF&#8217;s Sukhoi and Mirage jets in West Bengal, where senior Indian officers said they were highly impressed with the Typhoon&#8217;s capabilities.

&#8220;That kind of debate will probably seal the deal,&#8221; said an official close to the fighter jet competition who held up the prospect of India as a &#8220;major player&#8221; within the Eurofighter &#173;consortium.

Eurofighter is pulling out the stops ahead of visits to New Delhi by presidents Barack Obama of the US, Nicolas Sarkozy of France and Dmitry Medvedev of Russia, all of whom will press India to buy their military hardware.

A UK official said India had the potential to become the largest user of Typhoon and could take part in industrial defence co-operation at a time when &#8220;the plane still has the potential to evolve technologically&#8221;.

But, some senior British defence officials are wary of offering any more than a simple partnership arrangement to India, which would leave the core consortium intact while allowing India a role in developing some software and electronics.

Greg Bagwell, air vice-marshal in the RAF, cautioned that Indian participation would have to avoid disrupting sensitive &#8220;workshare&#8221; agreements between European partners upon which valuable high-tech jobs depended. But he said India had to be &#8220;a player around the table&#8221; if it bought Typhoon in large numbers. P.V. Naik, the head of the IAF, said that one of his priorities was studying India&#8217;s &#8220;ability to absorb the technology&#8221; of fourth-generation fighters.

India, one of the world&#8217;s fastest growing arms buyers, is already expected to agree to co-produce a fifth-generation stealth fighter with Russia.

A defence industry alliance with four European nations would have broader implications for what senior Nato commanders describe as &#8220;a new strategic deal with India&#8221;. It also reflects the importance of the Indian order to the future of Typhoon and its order book beyond the stressed military budgets in Europe.

BAE Systems, Europe&#8217;s largest defence contractor, which builds the Typhoon with European partners, already produces the Hawk trainer with Hindustan Aeronautics?in?Bangalore. Other UK companies are involved in the selection of weapons systems for the IAF.


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## luckyyy

jha said:


> *Get a big pie out of India's defence market: Rep Sen to Obama*
> 
> "As you know, six foreign companies are competing to sell India 126 new multi-role combat aircraft in a deal that could be worth as much as USD 11 billion. India's selection process for this aircraft is advancing, with two US companies under active consideration," senior Republican lawmaker from California Ed Royce said in a letter to Obama.
> .



why MMRCA is so importent to US..?

nobady in US talks about bullion $ deals of C-17 , C-130 ,VVVIP , PI-8planes etc..

why then the MMRCA is been singled out..?


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## redpearl75

It's because a transport plane won't be of that importance than a Fighter jet.. And there has been a lot already discussed about the C-17s, C 130 and the PI 8s and since this is the dedicated thread for MRCA related discussions, we are doing so... It's not being singled out but simply being more emphasized upon.. That's all....


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## captonjohn

I guess India would choose probably F18 and MIG 35. Of course MIG is not completely developed yet but induction of F18 would balance the situation. The reason why Indian government may choose these options because of some strategical and diplomatic reason. 

By choosing US and Russian technology together India is hitting two targets by single shot. Good relation with US and support in UN security council may force India to choose F18 and MIG due to IAF are used to with this family of fighters and strengthening strategic ties with US & Russia both. 

This may be an strategy to counter Chinese influence in the region.


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## Dash

> He is not denying that there was such an issue with a consultant and is trying to sperate the EF consortium and Eurojet. But that basically confirms the report about the bribery and why GE was selected right?



These speculations came that day when EJ was out...so yes to very large extent this is a right reason.


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## sancho

luckyyy said:


> why MMRCA is so importent to US..?
> 
> nobady in US talks about bullion $ deals of C-17 , C-130 ,VVVIP , PI-8planes etc..
> 
> why then the MMRCA is been singled out..?



Money, the financial crisis, if I'm not wrong an unemployment rate of 10&#37;. Any big deal that pushes their economy and creats jobs in the US too is welcome and MMRCA is the biggest fighter deal:

ASIAN DEFENCE: Indian MMRCA deal could create 27,000 jobs in US


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## hellofriends

the recent political activity is showing that eurofighter has been selected for MMRCA.


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## SpArK



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## marcos98

*Lockheed reassures India over F-16 fighter*
[URL="http://www.upi.com/Business_News/Security-Industry/2010/11/04/Lockheed-reassures-India-over-F-16-fighter/UPI-85241288866600/"]http://www.upi.com/Business_News/Security-Industry/2010/11/04/Lockheed-reassures-India-over-F-16-fighter/UPI-85241288866600/[/URL]
NEW DELHI, Nov. 4 (UPI) -- Lockheed Martin said it improved its version of the F16IN Super Viper on offer to India under the country's largest ever combat aircraft tender.

The corporation's tailor-made advanced F-16IN aircraft for the Indian air force has improved electronic scanned array radar, enhanced high-thrust engine and larger weapons inventory.

"The F-16 has a long history of operations around the world," Michael R. Griswold, director of advance development program at Lockheed Martin, told reporters. "The F-16 that we are offering here to India is by no means the end of the line of F-16s. In fact, it represents the beginning of what we think is great future for F-16 in India."

The F-16 Fighting Falcon, originally made by General Dynamics, first flew in 1974 and was inducted into the U.S. Air Force in 1978. In 1993, General Dynamics sold its aircraft manufacturing business to the Lockheed Corp., which became part of Lockheed Martin after a 1995 merger with Martin Marietta.

More than 4,400 of the F-16 aircraft have been built since production was approved in 1976. No units are sold in the United States any more but upgraded versions are available to export customers, such as India and Pakistan.

Air trials in India have finished for the most part and Lockheed also has shown additional features to the Indian air force during laboratory testing. "We had to provide new capability beyond what the F-16 block has," said Griswold.

Lockheed is one of six aircraft manufacturers chasing the $9.5 billion contract for 126 aircraft under the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft Competition, known as the MRCA. Up to 20 of the first units will be purchased from overseas manufacturing bases. The rest of the planes must be produced in India through stringent technology transfer agreements.

Delivery will start within 36 months of contract signing and be completed 48 months later.

Also in the running for the MRCA are the Eurofighter Typhoon, Dassault-Rafale, Saab JAS 39 Gripen, Mikoyan MiG-35 and the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet.

The acquisition is strategically important for India because of its aging jet-fighter fleet.

The air force attained 44 squadrons during the 1980s after acquiring Mirage 2000, MiG-29 and Jaguar aircraft. But many of the air force's older aircraft -- mostly MiG planes including MiG-21 units -- are obsolete with some not airworthy and others lost to accidents. As a result, the country has 32 squadrons, a worry for Indian defense officials as they believe the country's air superiority over Pakistan could be threatened.

The Indian air force phased out the MiG-23MF air-defense interceptor in 2007 and retirements of MiG-23BN ground-attack aircraft began in March 2009. The MiG-23s will be replaced by MRCA winner.

The F-16IN is based on the F-16E/F Block 60 version supplied to the United Arab Emirates and conformal fuel tanks, AN/APG-80 active electronically scanned array radar, GE F110-132A engine with 32,000 pounds of thrust and an electronic warfare suite with infra-red searching and helmet-mounted cueing system.

In April, during an interview in Dallas, Orville Prins, Lockheed's vice president of business development in India, praised the F-16IN version of the F-16 "I can assure you, the Super Viper is much more advanced in all aspects than the F-16s being given to Pakistan," he said.


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## sancho

From the Brazilian competition (google translated):



> *Lula says calmly decide on bids for purchase of fighter planes*
> 
> EFE - Brazilian President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva said on Wednesday that will decide "without haste" on a bid for the purchase of fighter planes which companies participate in the United States, France and Sweden.
> 
> At a news conference with the president-elect, Rousseff, *Lula made it clear that the subject will not drop for the next Government*, but said it will take the decision to "calm" and after consultation with the Defense Minister Nelson Jobim.
> 
> "We will decide that later, without haste," said Lula, who hinted that Dilma could join the discussion by stating that the matter will be discussed after the next president will take "a few days of rest."
> 
> In bidding for the purchase of 36 aircraft to compete Rafale, the French company Dassault, the F/A-18 Super Hornet, the American Boeing and Gripen, Sweden's Saab.
> 
> *Jobim said on several occasions that the Air Force recommended the Rafale, which considered the "most interesting for Brazil" and that "best fit" the needs of defending the country.
> 
> Lula also publicly expressed his preference for French planes.*
> 
> In the holiday of 7 September 2009, when he received GMT French President Nicolas Sarkozy, *Lula announced that the two government agreed to transform Brazil and France with "strategic partners in the field of aviation."*
> 
> That same day, the Brazilian government stressed its intention to "commence negotiations" to buy the French aircraft, though later it clear that this offer was valid also for Boeing and Saab, and that the bidding was still open.



Source


So the decision will be made by the actual gov this year, with the president and defense minister prefering Rafale! 
Good for the first Rafale export and good for Brazil to get such an strategic partner.


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## Gandhi G in da house

Does no member here know anyone in the airforce ? Get some info guys , we cant keep waiting for these people , they ' ll keep extending the deadline.


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## satishkumarcsc

nick_indian said:


> Does no member here know anyone in the airforce ? Get some info guys , we cant keep waiting for these people , they ' ll keep extending the deadline.



The ball is in the MoD's court. The IAF has submitted its evaluations in a form of a document and a simplified tabular column for those sloths to understand quickly. Now the MoD and the Finance Ministry and the Foreign affairs ministry need to think it out fast...and hope the CAG dosent rant about anything.


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## FSLN

a Hornet with TVC....

YouTube - Best Prototype Aircraft


if you guys get a level of TOT you could make a SuperHornet a TVC plane also

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## sathya

By Air Cmde (Retd) JASJIT SINGH
Director
CENTRE FOR AIR POWER STUDIES

With the technical, flight and staff evaluation of all the six contenders for the 126 M-MRCA fighters now done, time has come to seriously look for a national consensus on the parameters of the selection. This is not a simple acquisition and the decision making will be extremely difficult unless we are clear of the key factors that should be decided upon in advance besides the technical specifications met and as no doubt spelt out in the RFP (Request for Proposals). Our decision must be guided by two basic factors: that nearly a decade has gone past from the time that IAF was looking for a 'Mirage 2000' type to fill the slot that has come to be described as the M-MRCA (Medium-Multi Role Combat Aircraft). This term is critically important for a number of reasons.


To begin with, like in most countries, the Ministry of Defense (ours is at South Block) would decide the mix of aircraft types that the IAF would need in future, based on the operational tasks and capabilities, that is, the quality and the quantity, while the Finance Ministry at North Block would look closely at the budgetary costs of acquisition as well as the 'life-cycle' costs which would have a major influence on defense budgets for the coming decades. An excessively high-performance (beyond the medium level fighter) will lead to higher costs and budgetary commitments which will force the size of the IAF to be curtailed when it actually needs to get back to 39+ combat squadrons and then expand to the Cabinet-sanctioned 50 squadrons. For obvious reasons the bulk of these factors should, and would, remain classified. Yet the informed public in the world's largest democracy needs to have some idea of at least the parameters that might finally go into decision making.


The most crucial parameter has already been indicated by the very nomenclature which provides the description of the type of aircraft required: that is, medium sized multirole combat aircraft. The necessity of this class of aircraft has arisen due to a number of factors. Firstly, we need to fill the gap that has already arisen due to life-expiry of a large force of MiG-21s. The only 'medium' sized multi-role combat aircraft left in the IAF today is the Mirage-2000 with an inventory of around 50 aircraft. At the level above that, we are already committed to the heavy Su-30MKI being manufactured at HAL for the past few years. And at the lower size level, we have already embarked on the indigenously designed LCA (Light Combat Aircraft) that was to have replaced the MiG-21s before they went out of service, which Russian-type itself was a 'light combat aircraft'. The LCA's glitches, which inevitably exist in all complex new designs (for example, the F-35), would no doubt keep getting resolved as we go along. Of course it would be useful if the vendor selected for the M-MRCA also gives assistance in incorporating the necessary improvements in the LCA to improve upon it.

In the class of heavy multirole combat aircraft, the choice was made (wisely under the circumstances) a long time ago and the Su-30MKI, which is the envy of our neighbors and the pride of the IAF, is already under series production and this type will likely equip over 60&#37; of IAF's authorized combat force by the time the last Su-30 rolls out of HAL's Nasik factory. No doubt the FGFA fifth generation fighter (which is largely based on Su-30/35 technologies) to be jointly developed by Russia and India would at a later date add to the heavy category. About 16-20% of the authorized combat force (around 126-200 aircraft) would then need to be equipped by the medium multi-role combat aircraft, the balance 20%, hopefully by the indigenous LCA. This raises the question of what type and size of aircraft we should be looking at, subject to its operational parameters for satisfying the IAF needs.

The cost and performance of a combat aircraft broadly depends upon its size and weight and what avionics and weapons it carries. This parameter would virtually rule out the Boeing Super Hornet (an excellent aircraft in its class) and the MiG-35 (for another reason) but both not too far from the Su-30 in size or origin [Livefist note: The MiG-35's MTOW is much less than the Su-30's]. It would neither be prudent nor affordable to maintain nearly 80% of the combat force consisting of just heavy multi-role aircraft from a single source for the coming decades since the world situation would no doubt have undergone major changes during this period.

At around 24,000 kg maximum weight, the French Rafale and the European Eurofighter Typhoon also come closer to the upper end of a medium combat aircraft. They offer great advantage in the quantum of fuel and weapon load carried, but it is only actual operation and detailed cost calculations that can tell us of their desirability in our inventory. This leaves us with two types with obvious advantages of being clearly in the category of 'medium' multi-role combat aircraft that have been offered in the RFP: the US Lockheed-Martin F-16IN Super Viper and the Swedish Saab Gripen NG/IN, both configured specially to meet Indian requirements (hence the 'IN' in their nomenclature).

Popular perceptions may opt against the F-16 since this has been mainstay with the Pakistan Air Force since 1982 and recent inductions are raising that force level to as many as 118 F-16s in PAF inventory [Livefist note: PAF F-16 force levels are less]. These are being upgraded, but are expected to remain somewhat 'inferior' to the F-16s being offered to India which should be taken serious note of. While the F-16 would remain the backbone of the Pakistan Air Force, its Indian version would imply a maximum of 16-20% of the IAF combat force level with the Su-30MKI far outstripping it in numbers. There is also an advantage if the United States is willing to transfer (on lease or sale) 100-odd partially used F-16s from its Air National Guard to the IAF.

However, the choice that comes closest to the 'medium' multi-role aircraft that the IAF has been seeking since a decade ago (the Mirage-2000 type) is the Swedish Gripen IN which has maximum and empty weights at around 17,000 kg and 7,000 kg respectively, almost equal to that of the Mirage-2000. Since the Mirage 2000 is not in the running anymore, this makes it necessary to focus on the aircraft type closest to the medium combat aircraft, that is, the Swedish Gripen and Lockheed-Martin F-16, with the EADS Eurofighter Typhoon included at the higher end. Gripen's manufacturers could also offer some aircraft from Swedish Air Force reserves as an interim. However much would depend on what is carried by the aircraft in terms of avionics and weapons apart from its flying performance that meets our needs.

But there is a larger issue that should receive serious attention: this refers to the other matter we set out to deal with, that is the impact of acquisitions from abroad on our aircraft industry in the future. It is vital that the next fighter deal must go well beyond simple purchase and even local manufacture of the fighter and its major systems. Even the license manufacture option leaves the country dependent on external sources of supply. We were lulled in the past into the belief that 'transfer of technology' was taking place while the reality that it was 'production technology' that was actually transferred and not the essential design technology and data. This is why we have had to go back to Moscow to upgrade even the comparatively less sophisticated aircraft like the MiG-21. We now have the Su-30 being manufactured under license though we don't know how much design data is being transferred to HAL. This is probably the reason for Russian discomfort over inclusion of the offsets clause on new purchases from them.

Large investments in defense modernization with high-technology weapons, particularly the acquisition of new fighters must be leveraged to energize our defense (especially aerospace) industry once it is clear that they fit into our doctrine and strategy in the larger context of what quality and quantity of aerospace forces are required for the next several decades. This should aim to serve two key purposes: build interdependence through horizontal and vertical partnerships and, secondly, empower India's industry through capacity building with acquisition of modern aerospace technology. Both these principles are crucial to strengthening self-reliance through enhancing mutual dependence with countries and their industries that are willing to do so. These are also important for sustaining our broader techno-economic growth rates. But these requirements can be met only through process of acquisition and horizontal diffusion of technology beyond our present vertically organized hierarchical aircraft design and development model remotely, but firmly, managed from South Block. Global trends in aerospace industry on one side and India's growing technological and economic capabilities on the other, point towards seeking mutual advantages in pursuing the horizontal technology diffusion route. This is where the issue of offsets assumes great importance.
The offsets clause in our procurement policy may be seen by many as infusing FDI to the extent of 30-50% of every contract into our economy. In spite of large reserves of foreign exchange available, future FDI would continue to be an important factor. But this cannot be the primary reason for seeking offsets. We will need spare parts for thirty years or more. In between there will be many requirements of modifications and upgrades of the systems. We should be able to provide as much as possible from indigenous (mostly private) industry through joint ventures that must be negotiated now. The importance and extent of such agreements would be crucial to maintaining high serviceability and low accident rates of the combat force and hence its effectiveness during war over the next three decades, and more.

The IAF's new fighter would require a mid-life upgrade 10-15 years after it enters service and this should provide a benchmark criterion for offsets to establish the ability to design and undertake that in India. This can be expected only if the prime manufacturers establish the necessary design, development and production facilities in country. The Maruti-Suzuki experience of vendor development which has led to high levels of automotive parts exports needs a special look in this regard. It needs to be remembered that design and development is the foundation for self-reliance and till recently this had suffered in our aircraft industry. The new M-MRCA has already been designed elsewhere. But we still have opportunities to access design and development of components, systems and sub-systems in partnership with foreign enterprises.


Ultimately all this must fit into the principle of broader national interests and (grand?) geopolitical strategy to sustain them beyond system costs and performance factors. The question of American 'reliability' will continue to worry a lot of minds for a long time. But in this business, most suppliers would be under the same scanner. European policies in the past have raised doubts about the impact of US policies on even product support and now some EU partners' differences may also impact their future actions. The Soviet Union (and the relationship it had with us) disappeared long ago and new dimensions are already impacting Indo Russian arms relationship, not the least of them being the Russian high-end military technology flows to China and the China-Pakistan strategic nexus where China is one of the two suppliers of high-technology arms for the Pakistan Air Force. The signals that Moscow is sending out are not very encouraging.

In the ultimate analysis our decision on the new M-MRCA must rest on broader national interests.

A well-known authority on aerospace in India, Air Cmde Singh is currently Director of the New Delhi-based Centre for Air Power Studies (CAPS). The former Canberra pilot has also headed the Institute for Defence Studies and Analyses (IDSA) in New Delhi. This column appears in the latest issue of Vayu Aerospace & Defence Review. A copy of the column was sent to Livefist by CAPS.


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## SpArK

^^^^^

The Article do makes lots of sense..though lot of fellow Indians would be disappointed at what is being suggested.


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## SpArK

*Ajay shukla's new musings!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*


*The full case for scrapping the MMRCA tender and buying the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter​*






By Ajai Shukla

I thought that airing my view about the folly of buying a 4th-Gen fighter at this point in time would stir up a debate and it has. Many good responses have been posted on Broadsword, along with some not-so-relevant ones. And, of course, there is the usual bunch of whiners striking up the to-be-expected chorus of, youve been bribed by Lockheed Martin.

Im beginning to believe the stinging observation by many foreigners that Indians dont know how to argue at an intellectual plane. If we disagree with an argument, we try to discredit, not disprove.

Although I delete some posts during vetting (but only on the grounds of verbosity, irrelevance, or communalism/racism/xenophobia) I never remove the youve been bribed allegations. At some stage, Ill be able to go back and count them and quantify exactly how whiney Indian bloggers are.

Fortunately, there are plenty of good posts, which attempt to contradict my arguments robustly without getting into name-calling. To acknowledge them, here is my full-length response, laying out the full case for the F-35 and rebutting the many misconceptions around that fighters role, ability, cost, availability, etc.

*Operational necessity: air supremacy, or ground strike?*

What are Indias foreseeable security threats and how must the IAF equip and train itself to face them? While Pakistan remains a lingering hangover, especially in its embrace of cross-border terrorism, it is diminishing as a full-blown military threat to India. The IAFs most likely missions against Pakistan centre on air-to-ground strikes: punitive raids against terrorist camps or ISI locations, perhaps in retaliation for yet another terrorist outrage; or pre-emptive strikes against Pakistani ballistic missiles when a nuclear launch against India seems imminent.

A devastating ground strike capability is also primary for contingencies on the China border. With Beijing relentlessly developing roads and railways to the Line of Actual Control (LAC), the Peoples Liberation Army has already built, and is increasing, the ability to amass an invading force faster than the Indian Army can rush in troops to defend the threatened area. When an attack is imminent, or some Indian territory has already been occupied, New Delhis immediate response would inevitably centre on air strikes against PLA forward troops and the routes on which their logistics --- ammunition, fuel, food, water and medical care --- depend. In the 1962 debacle one of New Delhis most unforgivable, and inexplicable, blunders was to abjure the use of air power. This time around, as evident from the rapid creation of IAF infrastructure along the China border, Indias first response will be with air strikes.

Given these requirements, it is evident that the IAF needs a highly developed ground strike capability. But the fighter pilots that dominate the pinnacle of the IAF (and every other air force) have an overriding fascination for air supremacy fighters. The IAF has traditionally focused less on enemy ground troops and more on that fighter-jock ambition, shooting down enemy fighters in air-to-air duels. The Indian Army has long remonstrated with the IAF over the latters airy neglect (pun unintentional) of the crucial ground war. There needs to be a clear realisation that Indias wars --- in an environment where territorial integrity is a fundamental concern --- will be won and lost on the ground. For that reason, the IAF must be held to a ground strike capability.

*The Su-30MKI for ground strikes?*

For those who try to equate the ground attack capability of the Su-30MKI with that of the F-35, remember: ground attack capability is not a function merely of bomb-load; it is all about the ability to deliver high explosive ACCURATELY without sustaining unacceptable casualties to our strike force. That involves flying through a hostile EW and radar environment and reaching the target area without being detected or being detected too late; fighting ones way to the target if needed; locating and identifying the target; delivering a weapons load accurately; and then fighting ones way back to base. In fulfilling this comprehensive mission profile, the F-35 will be the granddaddy of any living fighter, including our Sukhois.

Those who argue that the F-35 can only carry a small bomb load are comparing chalk with cheese: equating a full external profile on other aircraft with an internal only profile on the F-35. While there are missions that the F-35 might be required to fly with only internal bomb-loads --- e.g. pre-emptive strikes on radar locations, airbases, headquarters, etc or to take out nuclear missile sites --- The F-35 will, for the most part, support ground troops with full internal and external bomb loads, even at the cost of some of its stealth. The aircraft will remain a pilots dream in difficult strike missions like high-accuracy strikes on mountain-top targets 1000 kilometres away: the F-35 delivers more anti-surface weaponry, with higher accuracy, than any comparable fighter. And its 360-degree cockpit awareness, with total avionics integration and sensor fusion, allows a single pilot to fly and function as weapons systems officer.

The F-35s range, achieved with internal fuel (rather than external fuel tanks that displace bombs), is more than adequate for the IAF, whose airbases in Assam are just 100-200 kilometres from the Sino-Indian border. With 8 tonnes of weaponry (mix-and-match, according to the mission) carried on six external and four internal pylons, the F-35 packs more punch than any of its Gen-4 rivals, including the brutish Su-30MKI, a bigger, heavier, easily detected aircraft.

MMRCA advocates are being simplistic (dishonest, some would argue!) in presenting the ground strike bomb-loads of Gen-4 fighters. Those PR-brochure figures assume that every external pylon carries a bomb. But actually, in combat missions, when there is an operational need for sensors and targeting pods; electronic warfare equipment, etc, the PR-brochure bomb load is irrelevant because some of those pylons are no longer available! Since the F-35s sensors and targeting devices and fuel load are internal to the aircraft, external pylons are used (surprise, surprise!) for carrying high explosive, not targeting pods, electronic countermeasure pods, and even flare and chaff dispensers, like Gen-4 fighters.

On a mission, the F-35 uses satellite-based GPS, and will be equipped with SATCOM using the new UHF system called MUOS. SATCOM will be employed when MUOS has an adequate number of systems in orbit. Among the F-35's communications systems is the Multi-Function Advanced Datalink, a high-bandwidth/low-probability-of-intercept system that is now under consideration for retrofit on the two other existing stealth aircraft, B-2 and F-22. F-35 also uses Link-16, Digital Battlefield Communications and Variable Message Format.

*Why buy a bomb truck, when we can get a real fighter that also bombs?*

As argued above, we dont want a real fighter that also bombs. We have lots and lots of air supremacy fighters and more --- LCA, FGFA --- on the way. What we need is a ground strike fighter.

MMRCA vendors (including, ironically, Lockheed Martin in selling the F-16 Super Viper!) argue that their multi-role MMRCA, are designed and equipped to effectively strike enemy ground forces. Strike they certainly can, but nowhere as devastatingly as the F-35, which is designed ground-up for this role. In cricket, even the best all-rounder does not both bat and bowl at the highest level a specialist bowler is invariably more penetrating and a specialist batsman better equipped. In athletics, decathletes hurl the discus, throw the javelin, and also sprint 100 metres. No decathletes, however, achieve the highest standards in every one of these events simultaneously.

It is the same with multi-role fighters, most of which are designed primarily as air supremacy fighters, with ground attack thrown in for saleability. Take the Eurofighter Typhoon, designed initially as an air defence fighter, and will only obtain a ground attack capability in Tranche 3. A top RAF officer told me yesterday that the Tranch 3 Eurofighters would only start delivery two years from now and that the AESA radar would be ready two years after that, i.e. at the end of 2014. But it is already being stated that the Eurofighter has a formidable ground attack capability! Given that nobody has any idea how effective the Eurofighter will be in the ground strike role, I can hardly bring myself to buy the argument that it will be anywhere close to the F-35. which is custom-designed as a strike fighter.

The Indian Army has not forgotten the IAFs irrelevance during the Kargil conflict. When IAF fighters should have been supporting assaulting infantry by hammering Pakistani positions with air strikes, those troops eventually had to make do only with fire support from their own artillery. Meanwhile, the IAF was searching for a way to equip its Mirage-2000s (an MMRCA!) to deliver bombs accurately onto mountaintops. That is what a world-class, customised, strike fighter like the F-35 is designed and built to do. We do not want the IAFs pathetic Kargil saga to be replayed some day on the Sino-Indian border.

*Can the F-35 survive a hostile air-to-air environment?*

MMRCA contenders in New Delhi have been assiduously putting out the word that the F-35, with its orientation towards its strike role, is poorly equipped to fend off enemy fighters that would intercept it before it could reach its target. While I do not subscribe to the multi-role school of thought, the facts appear to indicate that the F-35 can hold its own in air-to-air combat as well. Even though air-to-air combat is a secondary role for the F-35, US Air Force simulations (and remember, that is the most demanding of customers) have concluded that the F-35 is at least 6 times better in aerial combat than even advanced fourth-generation fighters. While the Gen-4 fighters handle well in air show configuration --- i.e. without weapons and topped up fuel --- comparative studies in combat configuration have proven that the F-35 outperforms all advanced Gen-4 aircraft in top end speed, loiter, subsonic acceleration and radius, besting them comfortably in aerial combat at shorter and long ranges.

*According to Lockheed Martins written response to my questions:*

U.S. Air Force combat-modelling results show that the F-35 is conservatively more than six times better in air-to-air capability than its nearest competitor.
In combat configuration, the F-35 outperforms all advanced fourth-generation aircraft in top end speed, loiter, subsonic acceleration and radius.
F-35 is the only international fighter with total avionics integration and sensor fusion, providing unprecedented spherical situational awareness to the pilot.
F-35 is comparable to, or better than, the best fourth generation fighters in aerodynamic performance in all within-visual-range categories.
The F-35 outperforms all fourth-generation aircraft in both the within-visual-range and beyond-visual-range air-to-air combat arenas.

It is also disinformation that the F-35 cannot carry a long-range air-to-air missile in its bay. Even though the F-35 has no requirement for such a missile, Lockheed Martin tells me that internal studies have confirmed that the F-35 could deploy such missiles if required. Said a senior Lockheed Martin executive over email, We have been working with weapon suppliers to identify both aircraft and weapon modifications that would optimize the physical fit within the weapons bays. To date we have determined that most long range missile concepts could fit on both internal and external weapon stations.

Incidentally, as of today, The F-35A (CTOL) and F-35B (STOVL) variants can each carry a total of 14 air-to-air missiles: 4 AMRAAMs internally, 8 AMRAAMs externally and two AIM-9s externally. The F-35C (CV) variant can carry a total of 12 air-to-air missiles: 4 AMRAAMs internally, 6 AMRAAMs externally and two AIM-9s externally.

*Why another Gen-5 fighter, besides the FGFA?*

Many argue that we dont need the expensive 5th Generation F-35, when we will soon have the 5th Generation FGFA? In fact the F-35 would be the perfect complement to the FGFA. In any future war, the FGFA --- which must be purpose-built as an air dominance fighter, not a multi-role all-rounder --- would work alongside the F-35 in creating a favourable air situation. While the F-35 would strike enemy air bases and radar installations, the FGFA would go for the enemys aircraft. Air supremacy obtained, or even without that, the F-35 would strike enemy ground forces and fly interdiction missions against his combat logistics.

This is not a revolutionary new doctrine. The US Air Force F-22 Raptors gain command of the air; and F-35s will be used to pulverise the enemys army, thereby winning the war.

Similarly, the introduction of two Gen-5 fighters into the IAF: the worlds premier air dominance fighter, the FGFA, supporting the worlds most lethal ground strike aircraft, the F-35, would give the IAF an unbeatable edge into the mid-twenty-first century.

*F-35 development time overruns is that relevant to India?*

Those who worry about time and cost overruns to the F-35 programme --- and there were, undeniably, overruns --- are grappling with a bunch of facts without placing them in the context of India. Think about it this way: those overruns were irritants for the eight development partner countries, which had put down money and been promised delivery by a certain date. India --- which never put down money, and had no time and cost overruns --- will step onto a programme that is on the doorstep of completion and is, therefore, fully de-risked. The F-35 will start obtaining its IOCs, as many former sceptics now accept, in late 2011 or, latest, 2012. By the way, there are three IOCs to be obtained for the three variants, separately from the US air force, navy and marine corps.

India, whose entry as an F-35 buyer will be a huge boost to the programme, can realistically demand delivery by a certain date during negotiations with Washington. With the development partner countries facing cruel defence budget cuts, there are indications that some are looking for options that would allow them to take delivery slower than originally negotiated. Israel could get its F-35s by 2014-15; India could strongly bargain to start taking delivery soon after that. Remember, there are very few enthusiastic buyers in this depressed global arms bazaar India is one of them.

*Declining squadron numbers*

The argument that the MMRCA is an instant fix for Indias declining squadron numbers is the reddest of herrings, given the time frame for induction! The earliest possible date for delivery of the first MMRCA, built entirely abroad, would be 2014 while the F-35 could well become available starting 2015-2017.

The F-35s later delivery actually suits our strategic circumstances; we should not be rushing the purchase. China is growing fast and is unmistakeably transforming into an assertive power, but it would take another decade before China could realistically contemplate the use of force towards a favourable border settlement. Since that threat would take some time in building, India must prepare for 21st century combat coolly and unhurriedly. It would be self-defeating to hustle ourselves into a hurried buy of 4th Gen fighters in the paranoid apprehension of immediate threat. Todays insecurity cannot be cited to buy an MMRCA that is unsuitable for our ground strike needs and that will be superseded in air-to-air capability by the FGFA within a decade.

Instead, the IAF should accept a few more years of deficient numbers in order to switch over to a Gen-5 force. I believe that 2017-18 should targeted for obtaining a sizeable number of F-35s, integrating them into the IAFs network (it will also take that long for the IAF to become a network-centric force!) and training our pilots to use the network-enabled capabilities of the F-35. By that time, the FGFA would also be completing development, rounding off the capabilities of a truly world-class force.

Most countries would bridge such a time gap by an interim purchase of fighter aircraft, but I dont think India can take out a US $10 billion insurance against a war that can, in an unlikely crisis, be deterred through nuclear posturing.

*The death of Indian aerospace industry?*

Amongst arguments made against the F-35, the most convoluted one is that Indian aeronautical development programmes like the LCA Mk II and the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) will be killed by the procurement of the F-35. As long as India maintains its strategic objective of defence indigenisation, the LCA and the AMCA programmes can continue, alongside joint development programmes with foreign partners, and with procurements like the MMRCA/F-35.

Even if the MoD were to start making hard choices, any threat to an indigenously produced 5th Generation fighter is the FGFA, not the F-35. The F-35 --- a strike aircraft --- is significantly different from the LCA Mk II and the AMCA, which are more akin to the multi-role (and biased towards air defence) FGFA.

In fact, procurements like the F-35, which will strengthen the US-India defence relationship, will facilitate technology inflows that are needed for giving the LCA/AMCA Gen-5 characteristics.

*Are we ready to hitch our wagon to the US?*

A legitimate question raised by sceptics of my F-35 proposal is: are we are ready to hitch our wagon so fundamentally to the United States? My short answer is: (a) buying the F-35 would not make us a US ally; and (b) this is not a zero-sum game. Indias de facto strategic policy of multi-alignment demands that we diversify defence procurement, R&D and joint development beyond our traditional partners, Russia, Israel, France, UK and Sweden. The move towards US equipment is already evident from the ongoing purchases of cutting edge American aircraft platforms like the P8i Poseidon; the C-130J Super Hercules; and the C-17 Globemaster III. So introducing the F-35 into the IAF would not be a fundamental change in alignment.

This process of engaging the US will inevitably be opposed by an influential segment of Indias strategic community, which appears unable to move beyond the slights, embargoes and denials of the past even when there is much to gain by refashioning the relationship. This peculiarly Indian inability to shed the baggage of the past is rooted in a cultural proclivity for personalising professional, and especially strategic relationships. In this mindset the world is an unchanging place where, if America sent the 7th Fleet into the Bay of Bengal in 1971, it would still be likely to rise against us at a crucial juncture. If America sided with Pakistan in the Cold War --- or so the Americaphobes reason --- it has something in its DNA that will align it with Pakistan forever. America can be pilloried for selling weaponry simultaneously to both Pakistan and India, but Indias simultaneous patronage of both American and Russian weaponry is entirely acceptable!

Fortunately, such cretins do not control any place except the blogosphere.

India is well positioned to create a purpose-built military, suited to its own conditions, by negotiating with multiple vendors from a position of strength. The argument that India will inevitably be a hapless victim of US pressure is a relic of the PL-480 era that survives only in the minds of some outdated analysts. Those of us who are cognisant of Indias already formidable --- and steadily growing --- strategic power and economic heft, are increasingly confident about New Delhis ability to get what it wants without giving what it cannot.

Just as India has passed the Nuclear Liability Bill on its own terms, and will not sign the CISMOA and BECA until it is clear that substantive benefits will accrue from these agreements, New Delhi is entirely capable of holding its own in a negotiation to buy the F-35 and to obtain the safeguards that the IAF needs for operating the F-35 in conformity with its doctrines, wherever Indias national interest demands.

Consider the concessions made to Israel, which is a strategic partner, not an F-35 development partner. Senior Israeli officials have confirmed that Washington has conceded Aviv the right to plug in Israeli Air Force command, control, communications, computer and intelligence (C4I) systems into specially made cockpit interfaces in the Israeli F-35 fighters. The F-35 main computer will enable a plug-and-play feature for integrating Israeli equipment. Israeli sources also reveal that the US has allowed the fitment of a detachable fuel tank to increase the F-35s range for special missions in which you can fly non-stealthy part of the way and become stealthy as you enter the danger zone. This is a barely disguised reference to an aerial strike on Irans nuclear-bomb facilities, with the connivance of Saudi Arabia.

To argue that Washington will never give India what it is ready to give Israel is to be utterly oblivious of the changing power realities in Asia and, therefore, the world. While Israel and the US are deeply connected at a people-to-people level, Indias steady rise, the power dynamics in the Asia-Pacific, and Pakistans apparent freefall place India bang at the centre of Washingtons security calculus in this hemisphere.

Shed your fears, folks. The future is here.


Broadsword: The full case for scrapping the MMRCA tender and buying the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter


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## prototype

BENNY said:


> ^^^^^
> 
> The Article do makes lots of sense..though lot of fellow Indians would be disappointed at what is being suggested.



well a lot of assertion's,reason's,logic's,calculation's and conclusion's arriving from different direction's,i am still ready to wait till MoD makes an official announcement

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## sathya

well as long as MOD selects a aircraft without cancelling the tender its good...


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## ajay26

Makes no sense to buy the F35 considering all of the development and investment has been done already by the original participating members. India would get very little in terms of offsets and technology transfer compared to the Typoon and Rafale.


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## sathya

UK closes in on $11bn fighter deal 
By admin at 7 November, 2010, 1:58 am 
BY: Telegraph Media Group

The multi-role combat aircraft, manufactured by a joint venture between Britain&#8217;s BAE Systems, Italy&#8217;s Alenia Aeronautica and the German-Spanish giant EADS, has come top in the Indian Air Force&#8217;s technical assessment of rival bids, beating the American F16 and F18s, the Russian MiG 35 and its closest rival, the French Dassault Rafale.

If the Typhoon clinches the deal, India would become the consortium&#8217;s third-largest customer and an unofficial &#8220;fifth partner&#8221; in the project. Thousands of new jobs would also be created in India, including a new EADS avionics plant. &#8220;The Indians would be one of the biggest users of Typhoon, which would give them a vote at the table,&#8221; one official said last week.

Britain, Germany, Italy and Spain are waging a joint diplomatic campaign to support the Typhoon bid, with the leaders of all four countries expected to raise the issue in meetings with India&#8217;s prime minister, Dr Manmohan Singh, at next week&#8217;s G20 meeting in Seoul. David Cameron is expected to lobby Dr Singh in a bilateral meeting at the summit.

President Barack Obama of the United States is in India this weekend and is expected to lobby on behalf of the US defence industry for the F16 and F18.

A senior Indian official has told The Sunday Telegraph that its air force&#8217;s technical findings have been forwarded to the defence ministry, where a final decision is expected to be made in the next few months.

&#8220;There are a number of cost and strategic considerations which still have to be looked at, but in purely technical terms, Eurofighter is ahead,&#8221; the official said.

The disclosure is a significant boost for the Typhoon consortium, but it must now address Indian concerns that the Eurofighter is more expensive than its competitors in upfront costs. British, German, Spanish and Italian officials are confident however that it will be cheaper than its competitors over the lifetime of its deployment.

Air Chief Marshal Sir Stephen Dalton, head of the Royal Air Force, visited India last week for the Indradhanush joint RAF-Indian Air Force exercise in Kalaikunda, West Bengal, where Indian fighter pilots flew RAF Typhoons for the first time under the gaze of their own Air Chief Marshal PV Naik.

&#8220;Set aside initial development costs and Typhoon&#8217;s through-life costs compare very well,&#8221; said Sir Stephen.

The Typhoon&#8217;s unique advantage, he said, is an integrated platform for its weapons, radar and intelligence- gathering systems. &#8220;It has this flexibility and adaptability at any one time,&#8221; he said. Sir Stephen previously headed Britain&#8217;s Typhoon development programme at the Ministry of Defence.

Indian officials have long said that Eurofighter had a good chance of winning the contract. Arif Shahid Khan, India&#8217;s ambassador to Italy, said in January that the Eurofighter was &#8220;leading the race&#8221; in the trials, which were then under way.

Winning the contract would be a jobs boost not just for BAE Systems&#8217; Warton plant in Lancashire but also the Rolls-Royce factory in Bristol, where its EuroJet 200 engines are built. It would also benefit 300 small and medium enterprises throughout Britain.

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## marcos98

^^so many news of confirmation and denials are going on.....
cant trust anyone, i will only believe when the MOD releases an official statement.

but typhoon is good....

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## tvsram1992

marcos98 said:


> ^^so many news of confirmation and denials are going on.....
> cant trust anyone, i will only believe when the MOD releases an official statement.
> 
> but typhoon is good....


typhoon is not better than f35


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## ajay26

tvsram1992 said:


> typhoon is not better than f35



it is when it comes to Air Superiority only the F22 beats it. The F35 is better when it comes to striking ground targets.


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## the rafter

*Without CISMOA India cannot buy advanced US arms
*
The Communication Interoperability and Security Memorandum of Agreement or CISMoA is a facet of bureaucratic and sometimes political attributes of doing business and allying with the United States. The CISMoA provides guidance on how the systems will function with other systems. Without signing the CISMOA Bharat may be ineligible to purchase advanced US technology.
A CISMoA can be a powerful tool to help operations, but it can be horribly tainted and twisted into a hindrance or a scapegoat of policy because of politics. Right now th CISMOA remains unsigned, and this remains a colossal impediment to a merit based decision.
The CISMoA attempts to facilitate agreements on how each nations radios will communicate with each other effectively. For example, India troops may want to call in an air strike with U.S. air assets, this will require Indian ground radios to be compatible with U.S. strike aircraft radios to include encryption. Likewise, U.S. Special Ops may want to call in Indian long range artillery. The U.S. SpecOps on the ground will need their radios to communicate with Indian ground based artillery batteries.
Communications such as these are only a fraction of what CISMoA can cover. Going back to the air strike scenario, if laser guided bombs are employed, the Indian ground troops may require a laser designator. Its not just point and the aircraft shoots as the press and media will have you believe. That laser designator must be set to a specific agreed upon frequency of invisible laser light. The laser guided bombs loaded on the aircraft will also be set to accept that specific frequency. You cant have the enemy using a similar frequency of laser light to direct our bombs back on us (unlikely). If the frequencies do not match, the bombs wont register a signal.
CISMoA does not just cover hardware and software; it also covers doctrine and interaction. We can share a command center which could be transferring Indian commanders to U.S. ships or transferring U.S. Commanders to Indian ground command facilities. These commanders will be responsible for their respective forces. They will need to know how each other works. One Generals decision to bomb a target may be in conflict with the other Generals plan to take the target, hence, friendly fire incident. Or one General may want to continue negotiating while another General might want to bypass a village instead. CISMoA tries to create a framework for commanders to operate in so that they dont have to halt operations and call Washington or New Delhi for guidance. One regulating factor for a CISMoA can be the Rules of Engagement or ROE.
Reports suggest that in absence of the Communication Interoperability and Security Memorandum of Agreement (CISMOA) and the Logistics Support Agreement (LSA), the US would be removing some of the key equipment on board the military systems being supplied to India by it. This may affect the C-130 J Hercules aircraft, C-17 heavylift aircraft and the ultra-light howitzers F-18s, and other US equipment.
The Indian Air Force Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) Competition, commonly known as the MRCA Tender, is an ongoing competition to supply the Indian Air Force with 126 Multi-Role Combat Aircraft. The Defence Ministry has allocated 42,000 crore (US$9.53 billion) for the purchase of these aircraft.
Six aircraft were bid for this multi-billion dollar contract, which has been touted as Indias single largest defence deal ever.
The discussion of purchasing F-18s from the US seems to suggest that Bharat is leaning towards European planes. Lockheed Martins F-16IN is powered by the GE F-110-132A engine. GE recently won a contract to provide F-414 engines for Indias Light Combat Aircraft (LCA). Michael Griswold, Lockheeds director of advanced development programs, says the LCA win is a good sign that the U.S. can meet its export control requirements. GE brought the best engine on the table at the lowest cost, he says.
GE F-110-132A is the most powerful engine of all the contenders of the [126-aircraft] MMRCA bid, Griswold says. Technology insertions for the engine include blisk fan, radial augmentor and a low-drag nozzle.
One potential stumbling block for U.S. competitors is the Communications Interoperability and Security Memorandum of Agreement (CISMOA), which India has yet to sign. The U.S. will not allow the export of certain sensitive items until India signs.
Both the Indian air force and the U.S. Air Force have communicated on this and both clearly understand the implications of CISMOA and how it affects the MMRCA, a senior official tells AVIATION WEEK.
For technical reasons the Indian Air Force (IAF) prefers Euro Fighters instead of USs F-18. Eurofighter GmbH, a joint venture of Alenia Aeronautica SpA, BAE Systems and the European Aeronautic Defence and Space Co. NV (EADS), is one of the worlds leading manufacturers of advanced fighter aircraft. Eurojets EJ200 lost out in the race to be the engine for the Mark-II version of the light combat aircraft (LCA).
Russia is strongly pushing case for its Mig-35 and keeping in view its historical alliance and presence of MIGs in Indian Air Force its chances are not bleak.
Frances Mirage and Swedens Grippons too are in line.
In order to impress upon New Delhi to give better deals the Europeans have even offered to set up assembly houses in Bangalore
The Americans have hand-picked an Indian Vice President for the Company that makes F-18 to woo New Delhis support.


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## Ammyy

the rafter said:


> *Without CISMOA India cannot buy advanced US arms
> *



I dnt think we need to sign any such type of agreement with USA ..

Now we know that and this thing eliminated F16,F18 from MMRCA 

Now EF gonna rock Indian skies


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## SpArK

*TELEGRAPH: Typhoon Leads MMRCA Pack!​*





This new report in the Daily Telegraph suggests that the Eurofighter Typhoon is ahead of the other five fighter contenders in India's $11-billion medium multirole combat aircraft (MMRCA) competition. The report quotes an unnamed IAF source as saying that the Typhoon emerged on top of the pack in the technical and field evaluations. There have been two earlier reports in the Indian media about the Typhoon making any cut that may happen.

Livefist - Indian Defence & Aerospace: TELEGRAPH: Typhoon Leads MMRCA Pack!

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## The HBS Guy

^^ British newspaper, British Aircraft..how credible?


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## Ammyy

KingKong31 said:


> ^^ British newspaper, British Aircraft..how credible?



I wish mod select EF for MMRCA cause we dnt need any of American jet


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## The HBS Guy

^^ I too. I don't know about the credibility of this particular news though.

---------- Post added at 11:46 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:46 AM ----------

The multi-role combat aircraft, manufactured by a joint venture between Britain's BAE Systems, Italy's Alenia Aeronautica and the German-Spanish giant EADS, has come top in the Indian Air Force's technical assessment of rival bids, beating the American F16 and F18s, the Russian MiG 35 and its closest rival, the French Dassault Rafale.

If the Typhoon clinches the deal, India would become the consortium's third-largest customer and an unofficial "fifth partner" in the project. Thousands of new jobs would also be created in India, including a new EADS avionics plant. "The Indians would be one of the biggest users of Typhoon, which would give them a vote at the table," one official said last week. 

Britain, Germany, Italy and Spain are waging a joint diplomatic campaign to support the Typhoon bid, with the leaders of all four countries expected to raise the issue in meetings with India's prime minister, Dr Manmohan Singh, at next week's G20 meeting in Seoul. David Cameron is expected to lobby Dr Singh in a bilateral meeting at the summit.

President Barack Obama of the United States is in India this weekend and is expected to lobby on behalf of the US defence industry for the F16 and F18.

A senior Indian official has told The Sunday Telegraph that its air force's technical findings have been forwarded to the defence ministry, where a final decision is expected to be made in the next few months.

"There are a number of cost and strategic considerations which still have to be looked at, but in purely technical terms, Eurofighter is ahead," the official said.

The disclosure is a significant boost for the Typhoon consortium, but it must now address Indian concerns that the Eurofighter is more expensive than its competitors in upfront costs. British, German, Spanish and Italian officials are confident however that it will be cheaper than its competitors over the lifetime of its deployment.

Air Chief Marshal Sir Stephen Dalton, head of the Royal Air Force, visited India last week for the Indradhanush joint RAF-Indian Air Force exercise in Kalaikunda, West Bengal, where Indian fighter pilots flew RAF Typhoons for the first time under the gaze of their own Air Chief Marshal PV Naik.

"Set aside initial development costs and Typhoon's through-life costs compare very well," said Sir Stephen.

The Typhoon's unique advantage, he said, is an integrated platform for its weapons, radar and intelligence- gathering systems. "It has this flexibility and adaptability at any one time," he said. Sir Stephen previously headed Britain's Typhoon development programme at the Ministry of Defence.

Indian officials have long said that Eurofighter had a good chance of winning the contract. Arif Shahid Khan, India's ambassador to Italy, said in January that the Eurofighter was "leading the race" in the trials, which were then under way.

Winning the contract would be a jobs boost not just for BAE Systems' Warton plant in Lancashire but also the Rolls-Royce factory in Bristol, where its EuroJet 200 engines are built. It would also benefit 300 small and medium enterprises throughout Britain. 

UK closes in on $11bn fighter deal - Telegraph


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## SpArK

We have seen extensive campaign by France in regard with Brazil competition and its been announced it will be discussed in G-20 meet with Lula.. Nothing of that sort has been heard about the same with India. Its 36 fighters Vs 126 and more... 

I think France has been conveyed the message of the decision and it means curtains for Rafale.


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## The HBS Guy

Is rafael technically superior to Typhoon?


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## Ammyy

KingKong31 said:


> Is rafael technically superior to Typhoon?



I think it might be superior in A 2 G role (dnt know about Tranche 3)otherwise Typhoon rocks


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## SpArK

KingKong31 said:


> Is rafael technically superior to Typhoon?



Different roles as been read in previos posts .. EF is basically air superiority fighter. we are not looking for more like them. 

What we need is a fighter which can attack ground with precision and has deep penetrating capability..

A good radar, accurate ground attack missiles and a cost effective solution.. EF doesnt fit any of these..


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## ajay26

Livefist - Indian Defence & Aerospace: ANALYSIS: Factors That Should Determine The MMRCA

Not sure if this article has been posted


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## Ammyy

BENNY said:


> Different roles as been read in previos posts .. EF is basically air superiority fighter. we are not looking for more like them.
> 
> What we need is a fighter which can attack ground with precision and has deep penetrating capability..
> 
> A good radar, accurate ground attack missiles and a cost effective solution.. EF doesnt fit any of these..



Sir i think Tranche 3 over come all these problem of a2g






And cost i Think both are European fighter?????


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## SpArK

DRDO said:


> Sir i think Tranche 3 over come all these problem of a2g
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And cost i Think both are European fighter?????



Well tranche 3 will depend upon the financials of the cash strapped EF partners for sure.. Already the company is in big trouble and radar wont be ready anywhere within 2-3 years.

Already news are full of defence cuts and they are looking at Indian order to start the work on it..


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## The HBS Guy

^^ So if India goes for typhoon, will it be tranche 3 and is tranche 3 supposed to deliver on the A2G front?


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## SpArK

I liked the article by that colonel.. Its been suggested by many analysits that we need a fighter to fill the gap of FGFA and AMCA... 

So we should look for a partner country with full ToT and complete control over the program with a cheap fighter. And nothing is worth more than Gripen to fill in the space.

Already JV with Tata and Mahindra and definitely it will bring more jobs than what EF proposed. So practically Gripen which was announced getting passed in all trials seems an ideal choice. But my heart still thumbs for Rafale.


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## Ammyy

BENNY said:


> Well tranche 3 will depend upon the financials of the cash strapped EF partners for sure.. Already the company is in big trouble and radar wont be ready anywhere within 2-3 years.
> 
> Already news are full of defence cuts and they are looking at Indian order to start the work on it..



I dnt think current radar Rafale is batter than EF 

So whats the problem that if Aesa or any other radar come after 2-3 years.


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## SpArK

DRDO said:


> I dnt think current radar Rafale is batter than EF
> 
> So whats the problem that if Aesa or any other radar come after 2-3 years.



How can you say the radar is better when the deal has been given only recently??

FARNBOROUGH: Eurofighter gets AESA radar deal, but Italy looks to F-35


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## SpArK

*OK here is the Gripen argument.. worth a look.​*


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## ajay26

The Gripen is the closest thing to India's Mirage planes but not sure it has the geo-political strings to go with the package think it will be Eurofighter who takes the prize deal.


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## trident2010

*UK closes in on $11bn fighter deal*








The multi-role combat aircraft, manufactured by a joint venture between Britain's BAE Systems, Italy's Alenia Aeronautica and the German-Spanish giant EADS, has come top in the Indian Air Force's technical assessment of rival bids, beating the American F16 and F18s, the Russian MiG 35 and its closest rival, the French Dassault Rafale.

If the Typhoon clinches the deal, India would become the consortium's third-largest customer and an unofficial "fifth partner" in the project. Thousands of new jobs would also be created in India, including a new EADS avionics plant. "The Indians would be one of the biggest users of Typhoon, which would give them a vote at the table," one official said last week.

Britain, Germany, Italy and Spain are waging a joint diplomatic campaign to support the Typhoon bid, with the leaders of all four countries expected to raise the issue in meetings with India's prime minister, Dr Manmohan Singh, at next week's G20 meeting in Seoul. David Cameron is expected to lobby Dr Singh in a bilateral meeting at the summit.

President Barack Obama of the United States is in India this weekend and is expected to lobby on behalf of the US defence industry for the F16 and F18.

A senior Indian official has told The Sunday Telegraph that its air force's technical findings have been forwarded to the defence ministry, where a final decision is expected to be made in the next few months.

"There are a number of cost and strategic considerations which still have to be looked at, but in purely technical terms, Eurofighter is ahead," the official said.

The disclosure is a significant boost for the Typhoon consortium, but it must now address Indian concerns that the Eurofighter is more expensive than its competitors in upfront costs. British, German, Spanish and Italian officials are confident however that it will be cheaper than its competitors over the lifetime of its deployment.

Air Chief Marshal Sir Stephen Dalton, head of the Royal Air Force, visited India last week for the Indradhanush joint RAF-Indian Air Force exercise in Kalaikunda, West Bengal, where Indian fighter pilots flew RAF Typhoons for the first time under the gaze of their own Air Chief Marshal PV Naik.

"Set aside initial development costs and Typhoon's through-life costs compare very well," said Sir Stephen.

The Typhoon's unique advantage, he said, is an integrated platform for its weapons, radar and intelligence- gathering systems. "It has this flexibility and adaptability at any one time," he said. Sir Stephen previously headed Britain's Typhoon development programme at the Ministry of Defence.

Indian officials have long said that Eurofighter had a good chance of winning the contract. Arif Shahid Khan, India's ambassador to Italy, said in January that the Eurofighter was "leading the race" in the trials, which were then under way.

Winning the contract would be a jobs boost not just for BAE Systems' Warton plant in Lancashire but also the Rolls-Royce factory in Bristol, where its EuroJet 200 engines are built. It would also benefit 300 small and medium enterprises throughout Britain. 


UK closes in on $11bn fighter deal - Telegraph

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## SpArK

trident2010 said:


> *UK closes in on $11bn fighter deal*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The multi-role combat aircraft, manufactured by a joint venture between Britain's BAE Systems, Italy's Alenia Aeronautica and the German-Spanish giant EADS, has come top in the Indian Air Force's technical assessment of rival bids, beating the American F16 and F18s, the Russian MiG 35 and its closest rival, the French Dassault Rafale.
> 
> If the Typhoon clinches the deal, India would become the consortium's third-largest customer and an unofficial "fifth partner" in e factory in Bristol, where its EuroJet 200 engines are built. It would also benefit 300 small and medium enterprises throughout Britain.
> 
> 
> UK closes in on $11bn fighter deal - Telegraph



Already posted..check the previous pages trident bhai


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## Toshiba

^^^^^^^^^
but i think u.s is more effective diplomatically


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## trident2010

BENNY said:


> Already posted..check the previous pages trident bhai



Ohh my bad  

Cheers buddy!!


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## kingdurgaking

BENNY said:


> I liked the article by that colonel.. Its been suggested by many analysits that we need a fighter to fill the gap of FGFA and AMCA...
> 
> So we should look for a partner country with full ToT and complete control over the program with a cheap fighter. And nothing is worth more than Gripen to fill in the space.
> 
> Already JV with Tata and Mahindra and definitely it will bring more jobs than what EF proposed. So practically Gripen which was announced getting passed in all trials seems an ideal choice. But my heart still thumbs for Rafale.



Not sure my similar message is missing... 

Benny MMRCA will have political advantage so griphen is out of scope there... Secondly only US or EU can provide the advantage what India is looking for...


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## SpArK

kingdurgaking said:


> Not sure my similar message is missing...
> 
> Benny MMRCA will have political advantage so griphen is out of scope there... Secondly only US or EU can provide the advantage what India is looking for...



Yup if political scope is to be considered Gripen, Mig-35 and Rafale is long gone.

But i am concerned at the developments of EF , when most of it partner countries will never go for a next generation fighter plane and they are cutting their plane share and looking for F-35s.


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## SpArK

Heard this comment before too..



> *Rafale vs Typhoon in 2009 :
> 
> ATLC in UAE : Rafale won 7-1
> Solarenza (Corsica): Rafale won 8-0
> *
> Rafale is combat proven and is the only omnirole aircraft in activity with great advantages like full sensor fusion and SPECTRA active cancellation. Also the EF is known to be more expensive and to have no future (it is probably the first and last fighter of EADS). BAE said it will probably goes with Dassault for a 5G and UAV.
> 
> Forget the EF and go for Rafale



Can anybody shed some light on the stated claim of rafale's win in dogfight over EF??



got it

http://www.defence.pk/forums/938323-post1972.html


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## SpArK

*A new good video for the bloody EF fans​!!!!*


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## SpArK




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## SpArK



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## SpArK




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## prototype

DRDO said:


> I think it might be superior in A 2 G role (dnt know about Tranche 3)otherwise Typhoon rocks



after the induction of Paveway EFT is good as any other fighters

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## sancho

alex mercer said:


> after the induction of Paveway EFT is good as any other fighters



EF already can use older Paveways and is integrating the latets IV version, but that can't be counted as real A2G capabilities with the lack of A2G missiles. More important is the lack of an dedicated pod pylon, because these LGBs needs a targeting pod for guidance. At the moment the EF carries it at the centerline station as you can see in the following pics, which reduces the number of fuel tanks that can be carried and also the range:







So if IAF, SFC, or even IN are searching for a fighter with deep strike capabilities, the EF is obviously the wrong choice!

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## sancho

BENNY said:


> We have seen extensive campaign by France in regard with Brazil competition and its been announced it will be discussed in G-20 meet with Lula.. Nothing of that sort has been heard about the same with India. Its 36 fighters Vs 126 and more...
> 
> I think France has been conveyed the message of the decision and it means curtains for Rafale.



I agree with you that Dassault should have tried to push the Rafale with more PR (I think president Sarkozy did his part with our officials, as well as the French forces with IAF), because many people rate the fighters on basis of PR and participation on Aero India with some flight shows. However, we have to see the difference to the deals in Brazil, or UAE too, to understand why they are focusing on them now. The UAE deal is not even a competition, France and Dassault have very close relations and it is more than likely that UAE will not only buy, but even upgrade the Rafale with new capabilities. The negotiations were pretty far, but now seems to stuck, because of some strange comments in a news paper owned by Dassault family. Otherwise it was expected that a final decision will taken even this year, which would be a big point for Dassault not only presenting the first export customer, but also new capabilities.
In Brazil it is even similar, the shortlisting to the final stage was decided long ago and the final decision was about to be taken in oct 2009, but because of further negotiations with the vendors (Dassault, Saab and Boeing), as well as the election this october, the whole deal was delayed. 

Compare that to MMRCA now, IAF transfered their report to MoD some month ago, but it's still not clear when there will be a shortlisting. We know that the final decision should be taken in mid 2011, still a long way to go. So they focus on those deals now, that could be done as soon as possible and will hopefully put more pressure on MMRCA after that. Actually, we already saw increased actions from their side this year, Ex Garuda, several deals with Thales, Dassault, MBDA, Sarkozy coming to India in Dec and there are exercises with the French navy and their CDG carrier (that carries 12 Rafale M F3) planed for early next year too. 

Would be interesting to see them in comparison to our Mig 29Ks.

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## sancho

Btw, the rafalenews.blog already replied to the analysis of Air Cmde (Retd) JASJIT SINGH (http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/11/analysis-factors-that-should-determine.html):



> *Is Rafale too heavy for MMRCA ?*
> 
> If there is no question about the gripen IN being in the same weight class as the Mirage 2000-5, The F-16E/IN, however, is much heavier.
> In fact, naked, the F-16E/IN weights the same as the Rafale C, but the french plane is able to carry 30% more load.
> 
> The chart below shows the empty and maximum load weight of each aircraft, sorted by increasing empty weight :
> *While the Rafale is the second lightest jet of the contest* (same as the F-16) *it is also the second best for maximum payload* (just behind the F/A-18E).



Rafale News: Is Rafale too heavy for MMRCA ?

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## Choppers

*Air Force MRCA Deal - Eurofighter Typhoon Ahead on Technical Parameters*

2010-11-07
British newspaper The Telegraph quotes unnamed senior Indian government officials revealing that the Eurofighter Typhoon fighters lead the race to bag the USD 11 billion Indian Air Force Multi-role Combat Aircraft (MRCA) deal.

"There are a number of cost and strategic considerations which still have to be looked at, but in purely technical terms, Eurofighter is ahead"
-- The Telegraph quoting an unnamed senior Indian official

India Defence had earlier reported in September 2010 that Eurofighter Typhoon and Dassault Rafale fighters had emerged as front-runners after field trials were conducted by the Air Force.

Air Force MRCA Deal - Eurofighter Typhoon Ahead on Technical Parameters | India Defence


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## SpArK



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## MAFIAN GOD

^^^WE CAN CLEARLY SEE THAT SU-30 MKI CAN CARRY MUCH HIGH LOAD THAN ANY OTHER AIRCRAFT.
WE WILL HAVE AROUND 275 OF THESE BIRDS.SO WE CAN CANCEL F/A-18 SUPER HORNET WHICH IS GOOD IN AIR-GROUND IN MMRCA COMPETITION AND CAN GO FOR THE FIGHTER WHICH HAS A GOOD AIR-AIR CAPABILITIES LIKE TYPHOON/RAFALE.
WHAT DO YOU SAY?


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## sudhir007




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## ganimi kawa

Latest rumour on the block. Though I'd be happy if this one is true!





*MMRCA BUZZ: F-16 Out Of Reckoning?*



> In the midst of persistent recent rumours of frontrunners in India's medium multirole combat aircraft (M-MRCA) competition, an explosive new piece of buzz -- and an assertion in the latest issue of India's most widely read news magazine -- *now suggest that the Lockheed-Martin F-16 is no longer in the reckoning for the $11-billion 126-fighter prize.* And with the MiG-35 long out of the competition, it's now effectively a four-horse game being fought by the Eurofighter Typhoon, Dassault Rafale, Boeing F/A-18 Super Hornet and the Saab Gripen NG/IN.





> First, the Indian Air Force has refused to comment officially on specific progress in the MMRCA competition, but an IAF officer familiar with developments at Air Force HQ has indicated to a select group of journalists, on condition of anonymity, that the Indian Air Force and Ministry of Defence specifically agree that *there is no sense in purchasing a platform that the US is already supplying to Pakistan *(notwithstanding the assertion that the variant on offer to India is far more advanced). This, especially when *the F-16 has come to symbolise the irritation India nurses against the stubborn rhetoric India faces from the US* when it registers its disquiet at billions of dollars worth of conventional weapons being supplied hand over fist to Pakistan.





> Second, and more importantly, the latest issue of INDIA TODAY (Nov 15) appears to suggest that as well. The cover story, co-authored by senior editor Sandeep Unnithan, notes, "US supplies to Pakistan have effectively nixed the F-16s prospects at being selected as one of the two US contenders for the IAF's $12-billion fighter tender for its Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft."
> 
> I'm awaiting comments from Lockheed-Martin. Stay tuned. Do please note that the Indian Air Force and Ministry of Defence have not confirmed this information. Also note that there have been several rumours in the past pertaining to specific eliminations from the lucrative MMRCA competition (Lockheed has in fact commented in the past on specific rumours), and none of them have been verified one way or the other. The competition remains in progress, with the Ministry of Defence expected to make a single type selection in or around July 2011.


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## SpArK

^^^
I wish the news as reported in INDIA TODAY magazine is true.


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## SpArK

A funny comment on the report from the site




> Now every aircraft has been eliminated and selected at least once, i think the Ministry of defence should be congratulated for its decade long procurement which might just outlast the planes.
> 
> Well actually it did outlast the production lines of Mirage-2k and the relevance of F-16 block-52+.

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## Ammyy

Choppers said:


> *Air Force MRCA Deal - Eurofighter Typhoon Ahead on Technical Parameters*
> 
> 2010-11-07
> British newspaper The Telegraph quotes unnamed senior Indian government officials revealing that the Eurofighter Typhoon fighters lead the race to bag the USD 11 billion Indian Air Force Multi-role Combat Aircraft (MRCA) deal.
> 
> "There are a number of cost and strategic considerations which still have to be looked at, but in purely technical terms, Eurofighter is ahead"
> -- The Telegraph quoting an unnamed senior Indian official
> 
> India Defence had earlier reported in September 2010 that Eurofighter Typhoon and Dassault Rafale fighters had emerged as front-runners after field trials were conducted by the Air Force.
> 
> Air Force MRCA Deal - Eurofighter Typhoon Ahead on Technical Parameters | India Defence



Wish EF select for MMRCA


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## FSLN

BENNY said:


>





MAFIAN GOD said:


> ^^^WE CAN CLEARLY SEE THAT SU-30 MKI CAN CARRY MUCH HIGH LOAD THAN ANY OTHER AIRCRAFT.
> WE WILL HAVE AROUND 275 OF THESE BIRDS.SO WE CAN CANCEL F/A-18 SUPER HORNET WHICH IS GOOD IN AIR-GROUND IN MMRCA COMPETITION AND CAN GO FOR THE FIGHTER WHICH HAS A GOOD AIR-AIR CAPABILITIES LIKE TYPHOON/RAFALE.
> WHAT DO YOU SAY?


so you want to leave the A2G duties to your precious MKi? and just buy a A2A bird like Typhoon..?

Nothing beats the SuperHornet in A2G, nothing but heavy fighters like MKis or Strike Eagles..


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## FSLN

DRDO said:


> Wish EF select for MMRCA


 Why? the MKi fits the A2A superiority duty just fine...


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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> EF already can use older Paveways and is integrating the latets IV version, but that can't be counted as real A2G capabilities with the lack of A2G missiles. More important is the lack of an dedicated pod pylon, because these LGBs needs a targeting pod for guidance. At the moment the EF carries it at the centerline station as you can see in the following pics, which reduces the number of fuel tanks that can be carried and also the range:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So if IAF, SFC, or even IN are searching for a fighter with deep strike capabilities, the EF is obviously the wrong choice!




Now the question is does EF doesnt have Mid air refuelling capabilities??? It has so why you need more fuel tanks?? 

Do you have any information on the range of EFT with internal Fuel??

From the pic i can see it is carrying a decent payload of A2G bombs and A2A missile... dont you think so??

But we need to see what is Trance-3 will be presented as??? a dedicated Pylon or use an existing one?


I still feel MMRCA needs a decent ground strike and superior Air strike because we have lot of Fighters with Ground strike capabilities.... Even LCA is now a bomber only


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## kingdurgaking

FSLN said:


> so you want to leave the A2G duties to your precious MKi? and just buy a A2A bird like Typhoon..?
> 
> Nothing beats the SuperHornet in A2G, nothing but heavy fighters like MKis or Strike Eagles..



Are you sure??? Can Hornet carry Brahmos?? A high precision and highly tactical missile?? I guess no right?? x....but MKI can carry any weapon which Super Hornet carries ... If US Permits trust me... MKI will have every weapon in its pylon .... Trust me man Nothing is better than MKI.... Just AESA and reduced RCS it will Kick A$$ of any fighters except 5th generation with ease......


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## sancho

MAFIAN GOD said:


> ^^^WE CAN CLEARLY SEE THAT SU-30 MKI CAN CARRY MUCH HIGH LOAD THAN ANY OTHER AIRCRAFT.
> WE WILL HAVE AROUND 275 OF THESE BIRDS.SO WE CAN CANCEL F/A-18 SUPER HORNET WHICH IS GOOD IN AIR-GROUND IN MMRCA COMPETITION AND CAN GO FOR THE FIGHTER WHICH HAS A GOOD AIR-AIR CAPABILITIES LIKE TYPHOON/RAFALE.
> WHAT DO YOU SAY?



Carrying much load is one thing, but it doesn't mean it is good for any type of strikes. Preemptive strikes, or deep penetration strikes in enemy territory, will be very difficult for the MKI with its big RCS. Especially because we have very capable opponents with AWACS support, here exactly the MMRCAs should offer different atvantages for IAF, to be able to do any role that is needed. Not to forget that we will get an A2A fighter fighter before the next deacade, that will be way more capable than any MMRCA anyway. 
F16IN would have been a good choice if PAF wouldn't use it for years and wouldn't have all the US restrictions, just like the SH will have. Which leaves us with the Rafale which is the closest in A2G to the SH and in some regards even superior.

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## FSLN

sancho said:


> .
> F16IN would have been a good choice if PAF wouldn't use it for years and wouldn't have all the US restrictions, just like the SH will have. Which leaves us with the Rafale which is the closest in A2G to the SH and in some regards even superior.



I agree, it would be so cool if you guys could home build the Rafale, ala MKi...


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## sancho

kingdurgaking said:


> Now the question is does EF doesnt have Mid air refuelling capabilities??? It has so why you need more fuel tanks??
> Do you have any information on the range of EFT with internal Fuel??




Of course the EF has that capability, but that doesn't mean the fighter needs no fuel tanks. Even in A2A CAP most fighters carry at least 1 drop tank to have enough range and endurance. In A2G missions, where the additional weight will reduce the range even more, drop tanks are very important, because air refuelling is only possible in Indian airspace right? So in a deep strike mission, the minute the fighters cross border, their range is dependent on the internal and external fuel capacity only. 




kingdurgaking said:


> From the pic i can see it is carrying a decent payload of A2G bombs and A2A missile... dont you think so??



It carries 4 x 500Kg LGB = 2000Kg strike load, a TP and 2 fuel tanks (A2A missiles are not important here, because we were talking about strike loads and range), but even the small Gripen NG, or E/F will carry the same with the same number of fuel tanks, but to a longer distances.

The TP is not integrated here, but the older Gripen has a dedicated pod station under the air intake, 2 x fuel tanks and 2 x 1000Kg LGBs:









kingdurgaking said:


> But we need to see what is Trance-3 will be presented as??? a dedicated Pylon or use an existing one?



That is the crucial point! We are about to shortlist the final contenders and the EF partners still did not decide what weapons, or capabilities the T3 will really have and when they will be available. So for now we can take only those things for granted, that are, or will be integrated soon, or at least are decided. 
Using the TP from a wing station will of course reduce one weapon again. 




kingdurgaking said:


> I still feel MMRCA needs a decent ground strike and superior Air strike because we have lot of Fighters with Ground strike capabilities.... Even LCA is now a bomber only



Where does IAF have a lot of ground strike capabilities? Mig 27 will be phased out soon and only Jags will remain as real strike fighters. The others are air superiority fighters with added A2G capabilities only and LCA a bomber? 
Look at the weapon config of the NG again, reduce 1 bomb, internal fuel as well as range and you have the strike load/capability of an LCA.




FSLN said:


> I agree, it would be so cool if you guys could home build the Rafale, ala MKi...



Hope so too!


----------



## ganimi kawa

^^ EFT does have a deficit of 1100kg fuel while carrying the litening 3 pod for A2G missions.

Tranche 3A was supposed to incorporate conformal fuel tanks to tackle this problem. Don't know their current status, though.


----------



## CONNAN

*MMRCA BUZZ: F-16 Out Of Reckoning? [UPDATED]*

Livefist - Indian Defence & Aerospace: MMRCA BUZZ: F-16 Out Of Reckoning? [UPDATED]

In the midst of persistent recent rumours of frontrunners in India's medium multirole combat aircraft (M-MRCA) competition, an explosive new piece of buzz -- and an assertion in the latest issue of India's most widely read news magazine -- now suggest that the Lockheed-Martin F-16 is no longer in the reckoning for the Indian $12-billion 126-fighter prize. And with the MiG-35 long out of the competition, it's now effectively a four-horse game being fought between the Eurofighter Typhoon, Dassault Rafale, Boeing F/A-18 Super Hornet and the Saab Gripen NG/IN.

Two points: First, the Indian Air Force has refused to comment officially on specific progress in the MMRCA competition, but an IAF officer familiar with developments at Air Force HQ has indicated to a select group of journalists, on condition of anonymity, that the Indian Air Force and Ministry of Defence specifically agree that there is no sense in purchasing a platform that the US is already supplying to Pakistan (notwithstanding the assertion that the variant on offer to India is far more advanced). This, especially when the F-16 has come to symbolise the irritation India nurses against the stubborn rhetoric South Block faces from the US when it registers its disquiet at billions of dollars worth of conventional weapons being supplied hand over fist to Pakistan supposedly for the war against terror.

Second, and more importantly, the latest issue of INDIA TODAY magazine (Nov 15) suggests that pretty unambiguously as well. The cover story, co-authored by senior editor Sandeep Unnithan, notes, "US supplies to Pakistan have effectively nixed the F-16's prospects at being selected as one of the two US contenders for the IAF's $12-billion fighter tender for its Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft."

I'm awaiting comments from Lockheed-Martin. Stay tuned. Do please note that the Indian Air Force and Ministry of Defence have not confirmed this information. Also note that there have been several rumours in the past pertaining to specific eliminations from the lucrative MMRCA competition (Lockheed has, in fact, commented in the past on specific rumours), and none of them have been confirmed one way or the other. The competition remains ongoing, with the Ministry of Defence expected to make a single type selection in or around July 2011.

*[UPDATE @10.47AM / 9 NOV] Lockeed-Martin has responded to the assertion in the INDIA TODAY cover story (see above). Here it is in full: "President Obama has expressed India&#8217;s and the US&#8217;s shared interest in a stable Pakistan, free of terrorist enclaves. We have heard nothing that would suggest the Indian government would eliminate either US competitor from the competition because of US engagement with Pakistan. On the contrary, we are very confident, based on the results of the Field Evaluation Trials, that the F-16IN Super Viper is fully compliant with India&#8217;s requirements. The F-16IN incorporates capabilities based upon lessons learned from combat and was the only MMRCA competitor to demonstrate an operational Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar in India, the core of the weapon system. This will be the finest F-16 ever built."*


----------



## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> Of course the EF has that capability, but that doesn't mean the fighter needs no fuel tanks. Even in A2A CAP most fighters carry at least 1 drop tank to have enough range and endurance. In A2G missions, where the additional weight will reduce the range even more, drop tanks are very important, because air refuelling is only possible in Indian airspace right? So in a deep strike mission, the minute the fighters cross border, their range is dependent on the internal and external fuel capacity only.



But sirjee if we need external tanks the purpose of mid air refuelling is defeated because behind enemy lines i dont think any fighter will carry external fuel tanks but will depend on internal fuel for mission because those tank will impact the fighter's performance... Secondly For deep strike we will not use medium fighters but heavy fighters like MKI which will finish the mission with ease...

Medium fighters will be used for Air superiority as the primary role with secondry bombing mission...



> It carries 4 x 500Kg LGB = 2000Kg strike load, a TP and 2 fuel tanks (A2A missiles are not important here, because we were talking about strike loads and range), but even the small Gripen NG, or E/F will carry the same with the same number of fuel tanks, but to a longer distances.
> 
> The TP is not integrated here, but the older Gripen has a dedicated pod station under the air intake, 2 x fuel tanks and 2 x 1000Kg LGBs:



But sirjee based on image we cant assume EFT can carry only 500 kg LGB right?.. It has higher thrust and it can for sure carry 1000kg LGB also what say?? In addition it has take off weight greater than NG .... and there is a report which is stating that RAF is working on Conformal fuel tanks which will be part of Tranche 3 specs... means a good deal....




> Where does IAF have a lot of ground strike capabilities? Mig 27 will be phased out soon and only Jags will remain as real strike fighters. The others are air superiority fighters with added A2G capabilities only and LCA a bomber?
> Look at the weapon config of the NG again, reduce 1 bomb, internal fuel as well as range and you have the strike load/capability of an LCA.



Sirjee every fighter in IAF has ground striking capability ... especially MKI which is being optimized now to carry Brahmos... I have Pics and config where MKI carries heavy Bombs and its a true swing role fighter... Come to Mirage it has proved its capability to strike Grounds.. LCA is tested to drop Precision bombs so far and it is now converted to a pure Multi role...

and we have Mig 29 which was the only Air superiority.. with SMT upgrade it too can drop bombs ....

So primary Air superiority we have are Mig 29, MMRCA and Future FGFA... We need this big squadron of Air superiority to counter poth PLAAF and PAF.. while we have sufficient Bombers in form of An32, MKI and LCA and Future AMCA .... while LCA will act as interceptor too while others can still supplement Air support


----------



## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> Carrying much load is one thing, but it doesn't mean it is good for any type of strikes. Preemptive strikes, or deep penetration strikes in enemy territory, will be very difficult for the MKI with its big RCS. Especially because we have very capable opponents with AWACS support, here exactly the MMRCAs should offer different atvantages for IAF, to be able to do any role that is needed. Not to forget that we will get an A2A fighter fighter before the next deacade, that will be way more capable than any MMRCA anyway.
> F16IN would have been a good choice if PAF wouldn't use it for years and wouldn't have all the US restrictions, just like the SH will have. Which leaves us with the Rafale which is the closest in A2G to the SH and in some regards even superior.



But sirjeee with such enemy capability we will need only 5th gen fighters because any 4th gen fighters will appear in AWACS coverage very easily... RCS will be a pure BS w.r.t to AWACS... so Tactics and and fighter capability is the only option.. and MKI with Novotar should do some tricks ... so MKI is the only capable aircraft for deep strike mission..


----------



## playtimeover

Hi Pyongyang. Yeah you are right.


----------



## MAFIAN GOD

sancho said:


> Carrying much load is one thing, but it doesn't mean it is good for any type of strikes. Preemptive strikes, or deep penetration strikes in enemy territory, will be very difficult for the MKI with its big RCS. Especially because we have very capable opponents with AWACS support, here exactly the MMRCAs should offer different atvantages for IAF, to be able to do any role that is needed. Not to forget that we will get an A2A fighter fighter before the next deacade, that will be way more capable than any MMRCA anyway.
> F16IN would have been a good choice if PAF wouldn't use it for years and wouldn't have all the US restrictions, just like the SH will have. Which leaves us with the Rafale which is the closest in A2G to the SH and in some regards even superior.



MY MISTAKE
I FORGOT TO CONSIDER THE RCS FACTOR


----------



## MAFIAN GOD

FSLN said:


> so you want to leave the A2G duties to your precious MKi? and just buy a A2A bird like Typhoon..?
> 
> Nothing beats the SuperHornet in A2G, nothing but heavy fighters like MKis or Strike Eagles..



SIR I DIDN'T MEAN TO LEAVE ALL A2G DUTIES ON MKI BUT I WAS SAYING THAT WE CAN RELY ON AN AIRCRAFT WHICH IS BETTER IN A2A ROLE RATHER THAN A2G ROLE.


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## sancho

ganimi kawa said:


> ^^ EFT does have a deficit of 1100kg fuel while carrying the litening 3 pod for A2G missions.
> 
> Tranche 3A was supposed to incorporate conformal fuel tanks to tackle this problem. Don't know their current status, though.



Actually only UK is interested in CFTs so far and they started some studies, as well as windtunnel models and mock ups, but nothing is really in development AFAIK and far away from beeing developed:







Once again it shows the potential of the EF, if it would be developed and funded properly and why I always say, a fully developed and capable EF would be a hell of a fighter. However, I don't have much hope for it anymore.


----------



## sancho

kingdurgaking said:


> But sirjee if we need external tanks the purpose of mid air refuelling is defeated because behind enemy lines i dont think any fighter will carry external fuel tanks but will depend on internal fuel for mission because those tank will impact the fighter's performance...



That's why the fighters eject the drop tanks before getting into air combats, but till then they of course use the drop tanks.




kingdurgaking said:


> But sirjee based on image we cant assume EFT can carry only 500 kg LGB right?.. *It has higher thrust and it can for sure carry 1000kg LGB also* what say??



The one has nothing to do with the other, the EF carries only 500Kg PGMs in the pic, because it has only 3 heavy weapon stations for heavy weapons, or fuel tanks. So if it carries 2 fuel tanks, only the centerline station is left for a 1000Kg bomb, but that is occupied with the TP so far. As I said, even the Gripen NG, or E/F can carry more in A2G (but of course with less flight performance), which gives you an idea of the EF A2G capabilities that are possible at the moment, or in near future. Only with CFTs it will be able to improve that, but check my reply to ganimi kawa.




kingdurgaking said:


> Sirjee every fighter in IAF has ground striking capability ... especially MKI which is being optimized now to carry Brahmos... I have Pics and config where MKI carries heavy Bombs and its a true swing role fighter... Come to Mirage it has proved its capability to strike Grounds.. LCA is tested to drop Precision bombs so far and it is now converted to a pure Multi role...




Multi role doesn't mean equally good in A2A and A2G (at least for most of the fighters), they are always aimed on one role and gets additional capabilities in the other too. MKIs ain advantage in strike role are attacks from distances, with A2G missiles, or heavy strikes. But it still remainy mainly an air superiority fighter. That's why the Russians for example build a dedicated strike version of the Flanker, for low level strike attacks, although it has the same payload, weapons, number of pylons like the Su 35, or the Su 30s. So adding some capabilities doesn't make MKI equal to Su 34, or F18SH, which is the best strike fighter in MMRCA.
LCA is even less a strike fighter, its main aim is interception and in addition to that CAS mainly. As I told you, with 2 + 2 A2A missiles and 2 fuel tanks, only a single weapon station will be left for A2G weapons. That means it can carry 1 1000Kg PGM, 1 anti ship, or 1 heavier stand off missile to longer distances, which is not comparable to MMRCA capabilities. That is also the main reason why I say it is way too limited to be a good carrier fighter!
Btw, as far as I know LCA only dropped dumb bombs so far, although the litening pod was integrated. I never saw it dropping any KAB bombs and I guess it will get the new Indian LGB, but both have to be ready first, the fighter and the weapon.


----------



## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> Multi role doesn't mean equally good in A2A and A2G (at least for most of the fighters), they are always aimed on one role and gets additional capabilities in the other too. MKIs ain advantage in strike role are attacks from distances, with A2G missiles, or heavy strikes. But it still remainy mainly an air superiority fighter. That's why the Russians for example build a dedicated strike version of the Flanker, for low level strike attacks, although it has the same payload, weapons, number of pylons like the Su 35, or the Su 30s. So adding some capabilities doesn't make MKI equal to Su 34, or F18SH, which is the best strike fighter in MMRCA.
> LCA is even less a strike fighter, its main aim is interception and in addition to that CAS mainly. As I told you, with 2 + 2 A2A missiles and 2 fuel tanks, only a single weapon station will be left for A2G weapons. That means it can carry 1 1000Kg PGM, 1 anti ship, or 1 heavier stand off missile to longer distances, which is not comparable to MMRCA capabilities. That is also the main reason why I say it is way too limited to be a good carrier fighter!
> Btw, as far as I know LCA only dropped dumb bombs so far, although the litening pod was integrated. I never saw it dropping any KAB bombs and I guess it will get the new Indian LGB, but both have to be ready first, the fighter and the weapon.



Everything is fine sirjee.... but i dont think Ground attacks are that seriously tough than A2A combat for an fighter.. Ground attacks will have to face the ground force as well as Air Force.. Further a litening Pod is not needed to be carried by the same fighter but a different fighter will also do the task just as we did in Kargil... Secondly For ground or Air attack apart from fighter capabilities it is the bombs that will do the job... but for Air you need a radar which is more complex than a A2g bomb what is your opinion on this?.. But for a ground we dont need that .. even a TV guided missile/bomb is enough unless the bomb has the capability to hit with precision because i believe Bomb size matters for bombing in a mission (what is your take on this).. For Missile like Brahmos it is almost Fire and Forget... As per the current IAF inventory every Fighter has got this capability ... for PAF we dont need to worry much because existing fighters deployed are more than enough to defend them.. for PLAAF we need more capable Air superiority fighter because MKI are kept for bombing the ground assets there and we have lot of news stating the same about the role of MKI deployed there.. 

That is why i always say we need more Air superiority as compared to A2G


----------



## sancho

kingdurgaking said:


> Secondly For ground or Air attack apart from fighter capabilities it is the bombs that will do the job... but for Air you need a radar which is more complex than a A2g bomb what is your opinion on this?.. But for a ground we dont need that .. even a TV guided missile/bomb is enough unless the bomb has the capability to hit with precision because i believe Bomb size matters for bombing in a mission (what is your take on this)..



I'm a bit confused about which fighter you are talking now, if it's still about EF then it has only LGB that needs guidance, unlike Rafale, or F18SH that has GPS guided bombs as well as A2G missiles.
I also think that radar is not the deciding requirement in MMRCA, IAF wants an AESA but it don't have to be the one with the highest range, because upgrade MKI, Pak Fa / FGFA will most likely have better radars and we have AWACSs support. So I think the advantage of conecting the MMRCA passivelly with those would be a bigger advantage, than having another long range radar.




kingdurgaking said:


> for PAF we dont need to worry much because existing fighters deployed are more than enough to defend them.. for PLAAF we need more capable Air superiority fighter because MKI are kept for bombing the ground assets there and we have lot of news stating the same about the role of MKI deployed there..



I see it exatly the other way around, IAF sees the MKI as their main air superiority fighter even above MMRCAs and that's why they don't need similar capabilities again. They need something that will add new capabilities and weapons to the fleet and alongside MKI and in future Pak Fa/ FGFA. That's why I'm pretty sure fighters like the Mig, Gripen and EF, that are mainly aimed on A2A, can't win this competition.
And as I already explained before, MKI will do strikes mainly from distance (Kh 59 250+ Km, Brahmos up to 300Km), but to cross border and remain undetected as long as possible, we need fighters with lower RCSs and good low level attack capabilities. That is what Rafale and F18SH could offer.


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## SpArK

*WTF is going on...*

*Typhoon deal boost BAE jobs​*
Tuesday 9th November 2010


AN EAST Lancashire-made fighter jet is set to clinch a bumper *£3billion deal with the Indian military, providing a major jobs boost.*

Air force chiefs in the Asian country are believed to be on the verge of buying 126 Eurofighter Typhoons, the aircraft built by engineers at BAE Systems plants in Samlesbury and Warton.

Although any deal would lead to a Typhoon base being built in India, it would also lead to an increase in workload in Lancashire.

Hundreds of Samlesbury engineers work on the Typhoon fuselage. Final assembly work on the aircraft takes place at BAEs Warton plant.

Plumbing firm wins homes refurbishment contract BURNLEY-based plumbing merchant James Hargreaves is flushed with success after winning a home refurbishment contract in Hyndburn.

The firm, based in Parliament Street, Burnley, has teamed up with another company to supply heating and bathroom kits for all properties run by the housing association, Hyndburn Homes, for the next three months.

Manager Dave Blackburn said: It is certainly keeping us busy.


Typhoon deal boost BAE jobs (From Lancashire Telegraph)


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## SpArK

*Air Forces Fly with Carl Zeiss Helmet Tracking System ​*
November 8, 2010 








*Deliveries of the new Helmet Mounted Systems for the Eurofighter tactical aircraft have now begun. Carl Zeiss Optronics supplies the helmet tracking system for these planes. Two cameras behind the pilot are aimed at the infrared diodes in the helmet. The system recognizes the pilots line of sight through the movement of his head.*

*A key feature is the promptness of the tracking function that continuously locks onto targets. It helps the pilot track, aim and fire external weapons systems. The modern quick release mechanism separates the cables from the helmet at lightning speed, ensuring that functions such as the ejector seat remain unimpaired in the event of an emergency. The helmet tracking system offers the excellent flexibility and adaptability associated with the long-established German company: Carl Zeiss Optronics has developed a helmet attachment for other aircraft types, allowing extensive installation of the tracking capabilities.
*

The tracking system is part of the new Helmet Mounted Systems for air forces in the UK, Spain, Italy and Germany. *As a visor in the helmet, it shows the pilot important flight and weapon target data, regardless of his line of sight. This manmachine interaction makes the system truly unique. *

defpro.


----------



## syntax_error

BENNY said:


> *WTF is going on...*
> 
> *Typhoon deal boost BAE jobs​*
> Tuesday 9th November 2010
> 
> 
> AN EAST Lancashire-made fighter jet is set to clinch a bumper *£3billion deal with the Indian military, providing a major jobs boost.*
> 
> 
> Air force chiefs in the Asian country are believed to be on the verge of buying 126 Eurofighter Typhoons, the aircraft built by engineers at BAE Systems plants in Samlesbury and Warton.
> 
> Although any deal would lead to a Typhoon base being built in India, it would also lead to an increase in workload in Lancashire.
> 
> Hundreds of Samlesbury engineers work on the Typhoon fuselage. Final assembly work on the aircraft takes place at BAEs Warton plant.
> 
> Plumbing firm wins homes refurbishment contract BURNLEY-based plumbing merchant James Hargreaves is flushed with success after winning a home refurbishment contract in Hyndburn.
> 
> The firm, based in Parliament Street, Burnley, has teamed up with another company to supply heating and bathroom kits for all properties run by the housing association, Hyndburn Homes, for the next three months.
> 
> Manager Dave Blackburn said: It is certainly keeping us busy.
> 
> 
> Typhoon deal boost BAE jobs (From Lancashire Telegraph)





3 billion pound deal for 126 aircraft .....?????


----------



## SpArK




----------



## SpArK

The Eurofighter Typhoon military aircraft performs during the opening of the 46th Paris Air Show at Le Bourget near Paris.


----------



## SpArK

*Brazil likely to chose Dassault's Rafale over Saab's Gripen, media says​*Posted on: Mon, 08 Nov 2010 11:12:02 EST


8 November 2010 - Brazil's president, Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva, will probably not award a deal for 36 fighter jets to Swedish group Saab AB , but will prefer French Dassault Aviation , Brazilian newspaper Valor Economico reported without naming any sources.

Dassault's Rafale will reportedly be the president's first choice in the tender, beating Saab's Jas 39 Gripen, according to Valor Economico. US player Boeing Co (NYSE: BA | PowerRating), with its F/A-18 Super Hornet, is also competing for the deal, which has been valued at USD1.8bn.

Last week, Lula da Silva said he would talk with the French president, Nicolas Sarkozy, regarding the tender and that the decision will be made together with Brazil's president-elect Dilma Rousseff, who will take office on 1 January 2011.

According to reports in Brazilian media, a decision or an announcement on the *tender could come in connection with the closing of Cruzex, a South American aerial combat training event hosted by Brazil, on 19 November 2010. Rafale will participate in the event for the first time.*

Brazil likely to chose Dassault's Rafale over Saab's Gripen, media says | TradingMarkets.com


----------



## CONNAN

UK to push India on Typhoon - Defence Management


----------



## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> I'm a bit confused about which fighter you are talking now, if it's still about EF then it has only LGB that needs guidance, unlike Rafale, or F18SH that has GPS guided bombs as well as A2G missiles.


But Sirjee for GPS we dont need Fighter it is the satellite that is going to the job.. and take it for granted... India will never get those weapons from US... so I feel LGB will be the maximum guided weapons .. and i am pretty sure MKI is carrying these bombs with Israeli Litening pods... which is deployed in North east wing command.. i have the pics ... beautiful pics of them... for JSOW or JDAM forget it ... Even if we purchase F16 , F35 or F18 we will not get them..






> I see it exatly the other way around, IAF sees the MKI as their main air superiority fighter even above MMRCAs and that's why they don't need similar capabilities again. They need something that will add new capabilities and weapons to the fleet and alongside MKI and in future Pak Fa/ FGFA. That's why I'm pretty sure fighters like the Mig, Gripen and EF, that are mainly aimed on A2A, can't win this competition.
> And as I already explained before, MKI will do strikes mainly from distance (Kh 59 250+ Km, Brahmos up to 300Km), but to cross border and remain undetected as long as possible, we need fighters with lower RCSs and good low level attack capabilities. That is what Rafale and F18SH could offer.



Accepted MKI is initially brought for Air superiority but right now with more upgrades they are becoming true multi role... which means there roles will be changed on the follow up order of FGFA.. being a swing role fighter it is easy for them to get converted for bombing options...

And with AWACS deployed across the borders i dont think F18sh or Rafael is going to do any magic... only F22, F35 or FGFA will be capable of doing some magic.. further PLAAF will attack Indian borders with 100's of fighter at the same time and MKI cannot work effectively because of huge RCS and less numbers it will be EFT which will create some magic in that place.. Forget about Rafael or F18sh in that situation... Once we have taken there Fighters then we will be in a position to do SEAD or ground attacks in latter sorties...

Forget PAF our Mig 29, Mirage and Mig21 bis is enough for them.. if need MKI can do complement role by flying from there respective bases..

so i feel Air superiority is still a requirement and we need EFT ....


----------



## MAFIAN GOD

^^^I AGREE WITH YOU.


----------



## sancho

kingdurgaking said:


> But Sirjee for GPS we dont need Fighter it is the satellite that is going to the job.. and take it for granted... India will never get those weapons from US... so I feel LGB will be the maximum guided weapons .. and i am pretty sure MKI is carrying these bombs with Israeli Litening pods... which is deployed in North east wing command.. i have the pics ... beautiful pics of them... for JSOW or JDAM forget it ... Even if we purchase F16 , F35 or F18 we will not get them..



First of all, we can get HAMMER, or SPICE PGM kits from France, or Israel, which has GPS guidance too, secondly even PAF is getting JDAM kits, so why should it be restricted for India?


----------



## SpArK

@sancho







Two missiles are seen on top of the wing of this Jaguar.. IS there any other fighter having these "same arrangements" ?????


----------



## sancho

BENNY said:


> @sancho
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Two missiles are seen on top of the wing of this Jaguar.. IS there any other fighter having these "same arrangements" ?????



Not from the MMRCA contenders, if you are asking because of that, possibly at older fighters I guess.


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## SpArK

sancho said:


> Not from the MMRCA contenders, if you are asking because of that, possibly at older fighters I guess.



I can find only Jaguars with these over-wing pylon missiles..

And its 2× AIM-9 Sidewinders or Matra R550 Magics .


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## SpArK




----------



## sancho

BENNY said:


> I can find only Jaguars with these over-wing pylon missiles..
> 
> And its 2× AIM-9 Sidewinders or Matra R550 Magics .



Possibly because most other fighters didn't needed it with more weapon stations under the wings.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> First of all, we can get HAMMER, or SPICE PGM kits from France, or Israel, which has GPS guidance too, secondly even PAF is getting JDAM kits, so why should it be restricted for India?



Sirjee GPS belongs to US and we already introduced redundancy of GLONASS in Brahmos over the Unreliability of the signal.. What Gurantee can GPS signal can give you as a whole?? 

Secondly PAF is an Non NATO ally so they will get ... but we are not so... Oke going back to my stand that US may provide the Munition to us for now... but the question is will it explode where we want it... 
And we ourself are going to have such Munition very soon for AMCA... Trust me... the key for this is the satellite launches we are going to make especially in GeoStationary orbit...


----------



## sancho

BENNY said:


>



 I counter with:






A pic from the Cruzex V exercise in Brazil, where French forces participates with 4 Rafales and 4 Mirage 2000s. Btw, Rafale international and Dassault aviation officials are in Brazil now to and making JV agreements with Brazilian partners, it looks more than good for Rafale now. Some reports hints that after the G20 sumit and towards the end of the exercise, there could be a final decision.


----------



## wali87

sancho said:


> Not from the MMRCA contenders, if you are asking because of that, possibly at older fighters I guess.




Should have even put one on top of the cockpit.. lol or perhaps given one for the pilot to keep in his cockpit.. just in case.


----------



## SpArK

*Rafale :*






​

*Weapons and payloads*


If the Rafale is to carry out all the missions of the AdlA and of the MN, then it is obvious she needs to be able to use all current and future weapons of used by those services. And she should be capable of carrying them as far as possible. Ideally, it should be able to use all of them during the same flight.

The Rafale has 14 hardpoints, (13 for the Rafale M due to the back centerline hardpoint being removed to make room for the arresting hook), including 5 wet hardpoints (to carry fuel tanks) and 3 for heavy loads (Scalp, 2000L fuel tanks). The Rafale is capable of carrying over 8 tons of external payload (9,5t), or 6,8 tons of external fuel (in addition to the internal 4,7 tons of fuel).

All the waypoints are compatible with the STANAG standard, and the ANS (attack and navigation system) is upgradeable in order to add all the current or future french weapons, but also foreign (NATO) weapons. Thus any weapon is easily integrable.

*1/ Giat 30M781 B*







The most common weapon is the GIAT 30 M791 B cannon, with a caliber of 30 mm and a rate of fire of 2500 RPM attained immediately (as opposed to gattling guns which dont reach their max fire rate until a little while). This rate of fire is only 1/6th inferior to the rate of fire of the TWO DEFA 553 guns of the Mirage F1 firing together (3000 rpm). Besides the shell has higher velocity (1025m/s for the 791 vs 800 m/s for the 553). This weapon offers a very good rate of fire for a single barrel weapon, offering very high efficiency for close aerial combat (less than 500m), combine with a very high kinetic energy of the shells (and flatter trajectory of the shells due to the much higher muzzle velocity). For the attack of ground targets, or unprotected naval targets, the rate of fire can be set to a lower value of 300/600 or 1500 rpm. The length of the bursts is usually of a half second (21 rounds at the max rate of fire, or 1kg of explosive), but 1second or free bursts can be selected. The gun is operated electronically, and can automatically unjam by getting rid of bad shells and providing for a safety time delay before the next shot. For each shot the recoil remains below 2700 daN. It weights about 120 kg and loaded with 125 OPIT (obus perforant incendiaire traçant  tracing piercing incendiary shell).for most missions. Used for AtoA and AtoG it is calibrated in the 0° axis of the plane.

*2/ The Mica*







The air-superiority weapn of choice for the Rafale is the MICA (Missile dintercetion, de combat et dauto-défense  interception, combat and self-defense missile). It is a medium range missile, weighting 112 kg, developped to replace both the Super 530D bvr missle and the Magic II short range. It can be rail-launched up to 9G (wings) or launched by pneumatic ejectors at up to 4g (fuselage). It is a multi-target fire and forget missile. Its high-impulse rocket can accelerate mach 3,5 in addition to the speed of the plane. Its thrust vector nozzles allow it to manoeuver at up to 50g. Its range is rated at over 80km. It doesnt make tu much smoke and the run of its rocket is short enough to make it harder to detect. Guidance is provided by two interchangeable seekers that can both be used either for close quarter or bvr fights.

- EM seeker (electromagnetic), named AD4A: capable of detecting a target at several tenths of km, with high ECCM capabilities, can reach its target even without information provided by the firing aircraft, and in look down shoot down in spite of the ground clutter.

- IR seeker (infra red): of a very elaborate technology, it has a cooling system with an autonomy of 10 hours. Its imaging infra red seeker and its processor allow it to distinguish between a plan and flares and bright landscape (detection of engine sides, leading edge...) and is hence very difficult to decoy.


The missile has an inertial navigation system that allows it to go to the intercept point that was designated before launch. It has four firing modes:

- long range shot with airccraft-missile link ( LAM. (liaison avion missile) See RBE2), in order to update the intercept point with up to date information in case the target changes direction or speed. The trajectory is optimised all the way during inertial flight, in order to reach the longest range while retaining energy for the terminal phase of the flight. This LAM isnt necessary for short and medium range shots.
- Long range shot without LAM: the missile gets to the intercept point only thanks to its INS, because the shooter breaks away from the fight immediately after the shot. It is completely autonomous, and the seeker will have to wait for the last kilometers to find its target itself.
- Short distance launch after lock; the missile has locked its target and will be completely autonomous
- Short distance launch before lock: the missile is launched and does a hard manoeuver towards its target and then locks it. This is usually a high off boresight shot and is done either thanks to a helmet mounted display or through link 16 track. It allows to shoot at a target located in the six o clock of the missile.

The Mica IR is a totally passive missile. Only its launch could be detected, provided it is launched from close enough. Besides, its duality (two choices of seekers) make it very difficult to decoy or to jam, because it is very difficult to manage both IR and EM threats at the same time. It was suggested by its manufacturer that the Mica was about equivalent to the AMRAAM, but with better endgame manoeuvrability.

*3/ Meteor*






beyond 2012, the Rafale is going to be able to fire the Meteor. This very long range missile, weighting 185kg and propelled by a ramjet and will allow shots over 100km (max 150km), while retaining its speed of Mach 4 during the whole flight.including terminal phase, making it very dangerous even at the longest ranges. It is going to use an improved version of the AD4A that equips the Mica.

Mica and Meteor will complete eachother nicely, with the Meteor reaching much further than the 80km of the Mica.

*4/ AASM*








The AASM (Armement air-sol modulaire  modular air to ground weapon) is a revolutionary concept of weapon. Its basis is a Mk82 (250kg) bomb equipped with a guidance unit and a propulsion kit.

The guidance kit will originally be INS/GPS (inertial and GPS). The whole system, weighting 340 kg is capable of autonomously targeting the coordinates of a fixed target.independently of the weather, and at ranges of up to 50 km at high altitude and 15 km from low altitude with less than 10m accuracy. In case of GPS jamming, its inertial navigation system will take over, which makes it a hard to decoy. The impact angle is adjustable. For low altitude firing the bomb will adopt a bell trajectory. The munition allows for a 90° off boresight firing. It is supposed to be affordable, and to allow the destruction of 6 targets in a single pass.

It is a very polyvalent weapon because it can be used for the attack of objectives known in advance, for close air support with targets detected by radar, OSF or link 16, and for sead missions thanks to SPECTRA and Link 16. For the same accuracy than that of a dumb bomb fired in ideal condition, the AASM allows the striker to avoid getting into a dangerous situation with the SAM/AAA. It is a bit less accurate than laser guided bombs, and cant be used on mobile targets, but it is completely fire and forget and is multi target and all-weather.

Accuracy will be much improved with the adoption of an imaging infra red version. Capable of 1meter accuracy and to recognise its target even if the original coordinates were off.

Other versions have been considered, including a TV and an anti-radiation version. Also planned is the adaptation of similar kits for Mk83 480kg and Mk84 1000kg bombs.

*5/ SCALP*






The SCALP is a 1300 kg cruise missile with a range of over 250 km (400km from high altitude). Developped from the Apache (anti-runway/aera denial weapon), it retains most of its characteristics (stealth, Inertial navication system, GPS, radio altimeter, automatic target recognition, terrain following trajectory), except that instead of the submuntions it carries a military payload of 400kg with penetrator. It can navigate with or without GPS, and can go around the target to deceive air defense.before the final phase of the flight.
Even though it is a tactical weapon, in France it is considered a strategical weapon and is used only with the approval of high authorities.
In the future it is conceiveable to see SCALP missiles with a payload that is adapted according to the target. An anti-ship version is also under development (with cylindrical shape instead of the original shape).

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## SpArK

*6/ Exocet*







The Exocet (AM-39) is an anti-ship missile with a range of 60 to 70 km. It weights 670 kg and uses a fragment-explosive warhead of 165kg.capable of putting frigate or a destroyer out of action. It uses an active radar which was continuously updated to resist to jamming and decoying. Flying a few meters above the waves at high subsonic speeds it uses several techniques to avoid defenses, such as brutal trajectory changes.

*7/ ASMP-A*






The ASMP (Air-Sol Moyenne Port&#233;e) is the french airborne nuclear dissuasion missile. It has flown on the Mirage IV, on the Mirage 2000N and on the Super Etendard. The Rafale will carry the ASMP-A (am&#233;lior&#233 which is an improved version of the ASMP. This new version weights 840 kg and has a range of over 600 km. It is a stealth and relatively manoeuvrable, has a programmable trajectory and is capable of fast direction change in order to deceive air defenses. It has a speed of mach 2,5

*8/ Reco-NG pod*








The Reco-NG pod weights 920 kg. It brings day/night high/low altitude reconnaissance capabilities to the Rafale, even in bad weather, thanks to two different sensors:
- An infrared captor for low altitude high speed reconnaissance
- A visible specter/near infrared sensor for high and medium altitude.

With those two sensors, a Rafale can overfly an area and then make a low altitude high speed pass once suspect activity has been detected to take very accurate images. The data gathered (digital images) can be treated simultaneously by the NOSA (Navigateur Officier Syst&#232;me d&#8217;Armes &#8211; Navigator Weapon System Officer), before being retransmitted to other planes for an attack within the following minutes.
The pod is qualified up to at least Mach 1,4 and its impact on the aircraft&#8217;s performance is low.

*9/ Damocl&#232;s pod*








The Damocl&#232;s pod was not dedicated to the Rafale, but for the use of LGBs for export it is the most modern system available from France. The range of its tri-band sensor is of about 70 km and its field of view completes that of the OSF which can lose track of a ground target during manoeuvers/overflight. This pod is compatible with GBU24 Paveway 3 1000 kg bombs which has a range of about 50 km.

This pod also has a FLIR in the pylon, which can be used instead of the OSF to let the OSF get back to the surveillance role.

*10/ Buddy-buddy refueling pod*







In the particular case of the Marine Nationale, which may require tanker aircrafts in areas where those may not be available, the Rafale can carry a buddy-buddy refueling pod. It has been used at speed between 280-350 knots and up to 20000 feet, and allow a transfer flow of 530liter per minute.

*11/ External fuel tanks*

In order to carry its weapons far enough, the Rafale can be equipped with two types of droppable external tanks: 1250l supersonic fuel tanks or 2000l fuel tanks. The 1250l tanks can be carried on any of the 5 wet points, while the 2000l tanks can only be carried on the centerline hardpoint and on the two inboard wing hardpoints.

For export, it is sometimes impossible to sacrifice hardpoints to bring more fuel so Dassault developped conformal fuel tanks that are carried on each part of the fuselage over the plane.Each of them carry 1150l of fuel. Their impact on flight performance is negligible thanks to their elaborated shape.

*12/ The future*

The military programmation law plans to make a jamming pod. The plane is hence going to be able to manage misisons dedicated to such planes as the EA6B prowler and the EA18G Growler
Besides to improve the stealth characteristics of the aircraft, Dassault plans to make it carry come weapons inside stealth shells that would be dropped before the shot. Missiles could also be carried in tube-shapped stealth pods.



www.benny-searched-and-compiled-it.com

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## SpArK

*Size Comparison *

Flanker Series
J-10
Lavi
Eurofighter
Rafale
F-16 Block 60

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## sancho

BENNY said:


> *Rafale :*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​
> 
> *Weapons and payloads*



Nice one Benny!

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## SpArK

*Rafale Engine​*

Needs versatile and powerful engine of the aircraft response to the M88-2. This completely new engine was developed specifically for the Rafale.









The M88-2 (photo Snecma)

*The main characteristic of an engine operating at low altitude is above all a low specific fuel consumption. The new turbofan engine, turbofan responds to this with a high compression ratio of 24.5, and components in high yield.*


By cons, an engine designed for high altitudes requires a high specific thrust, and a low dilution rate. For this, a dilution rate of 0.3, a high turbine inlet temperature of 1577 ° C and post-combution (PC) on the two flows were adopted.

Such performances were achieved thanks to new techniques include: single-piece bladed compressor disks (DAM), annular combustion chamber clean, blades and turbine nozzles HP (High Pressure) single crystal alloy and a clever cooling system disks HPC powder metallurgy (very reliable and light), ceramic coatings and composite materials for the components of nozzles and cold runner. 

The motor is controlled digitally by two computers, programmed with 160 general laws, the system component "FADEC". This allows easy control, optimal, unrestricted engine throughout the flight envelope. For example, it allows both engines were started in only two minutes, and to accelerate from idle to full PCs in just three seconds. This regulation is an important factor in reducing pilot workload. But not only for the pilot: Also for the engineer because the system does not only regulate but also monitors the engine whenever possible, to identify and isolate faults, compute performance, track aging, vibration monitoring etc ... in real time!).

The launch of these engines is accomplished through the APU (Auxiliary Power Unit), which also manages the packaging of the carrier when the aircraft is on the ground.

* It is interesting to note, in terms of progress, the M88 is a driver whose mass (897kg) and length (3.53 m) decreased by 45% compared to the Atar 9K50 fitted to the Mirage F1. However, its thrust / weight ratio increased 88% to $ 9.*

*Beyond its thrust performance and fuel economy is also an engine that's discreet. Indeed, it has all the latest technical advances to reduce its RCS, and especially its SIR (infrared signature). In most situations, the M88 does not affect the infrared signature of the aircraft.*

By cons, and of course the engine is one of the first components whose development is long-planned, as it is conceived as a father.

*If studies for M88-3 to 90kN and 115kN M88-4 were unsuccessful, they are re-oriented M88 ECO*. *As such, both engines are tested, one having already demonstrated the ability to reach 90kN (about increased air flow, imposing an air intake slightly larger), and the other aims to increase its life by 50%. The technologies developed are, among others, monocrystalline blade thermal barrier to withstand temperatures of 2100 ° C, the new controllers ... etc..*


*If the version with extended life interests the French armies, the version "90kN" is mainly for export for use under the equatorial temperatures and in case of non availability of tankers. That said, this version could benefit the Navy aircraft catapult very heavy (20% extra thrust would be substantial) or the Air Force as well, to provide energy for the future pod interference power.*


PS: Grammatical errors from translation..

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## Gandhi G in da house

BENNY said:


> *WTF is going on...*
> 
> *Typhoon deal boost BAE jobs​*
> Tuesday 9th November 2010
> 
> 
> AN EAST Lancashire-made fighter jet is set to clinch a bumper *£3billion deal with the Indian military, providing a major jobs boost.*
> 
> Air force chiefs in the Asian country are believed to be on the verge of buying 126 Eurofighter Typhoons, the aircraft built by engineers at BAE Systems plants in Samlesbury and Warton.
> 
> Although any deal would lead to a Typhoon base being built in India, it would also lead to an increase in workload in Lancashire.
> 
> Hundreds of Samlesbury engineers work on the Typhoon fuselage. Final assembly work on the aircraft takes place at BAEs Warton plant.
> 
> Plumbing firm wins homes refurbishment contract BURNLEY-based plumbing merchant James Hargreaves is flushed with success after winning a home refurbishment contract in Hyndburn.
> 
> The firm, based in Parliament Street, Burnley, has teamed up with another company to supply heating and bathroom kits for all properties run by the housing association, Hyndburn Homes, for the next three months.
> 
> Manager Dave Blackburn said: It is certainly keeping us busy.
> 
> 
> Typhoon deal boost BAE jobs (From Lancashire Telegraph)



so has the typhoon unofficialy won it ?


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## SpArK




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## RPK

*http://expressbuzz.com/nation/uk&#37;E2%80%99s-defence-secretary-to-visit-india/222882.html*


*UK&#8217;s defence secretary to visit India* 

NEW DELHI: Britain&#8217;s Defence Secretary Liam Fox will be in New Delhi later this month amidst buzz that Eurofighter Typhoon has emerged as frontrunner in IAF&#8217;s multi-billion dollar bid for 126 fighter jets.


South block is yet to confirm, but reports have claimed that Eurofighter &#8212; Typhoon &#8212; produced by a consortium of Britain, Germany, Spain and Italy &#8212; had come on top after technical evaluation by the IAF.

The IAF&#8217;s technical report on the performance of six combat jets &#8212; F-18, F-16, Mig- 35, Rafale, Typhoon and Gripen &#8212; was submitted to the Ministry of Defence recently.

It has been reported that IAF has found Typhoon best suited for its requirements on technical grounds.

The British Defence Secretary would get a true sense on this crucial deal during his meetings with Indian officials and would try to push hard for contract.

The $11.3-billion deal is critical for the six contenders, more so for the European consortium struggling to keep the supply line running.

The Indian deal is big as it could sustain a large number of jobs back home as the aircraft are made in Lancashire.

Fox&#8217;s visit comes at a time when huge cuts in British defence budget has become a debating point. The defence ties between India and the UK have come alive in the recent months.

An air combat exercise with Royal Air Force concluded just recently at Kalaikunda air base in West Bengal. The RAF had brought in Typhoons for the first time for the exercise to showcase its capabilities.

The Typhoon campaign in India is being spearheaded by the Germans, but UK is also playing its part in clinching the deal. After the evaluation of the technical bids, the MoD will open the commercial bids.

A large section in India believes that political considerations will overrule all other factors in deciding the winner.

Intense lobbying is underway to put pressure on India.


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## rockstarIN

Benny & Surkozy is lobbying for Rafale..

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## SpArK

rockstar said:


> Benny & Surkozy is lobbying for Rafale..



Add.. Sancho too..

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## praveen007

hey add me to

i whant only RAFALE for india.

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## Ammyy

*Euro Fighter all the way 

*


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## pankaj agrawal

F16 IN all the way

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## rockstarIN

DRDO said:


> *Euro Fighter all the way
> 
> *



Im with EF


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## SpArK

DRDO said:


> *Euro Fighter all the way
> 
> *





pankaj agrawal said:


> F16 IN all the way





rockstar said:


> Im with EF


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## sathya

i am with EF


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## gowthamraj

praveen007 said:


> hey add me to
> 
> i whant only RAFALE for india.



Me too me too


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## AnGrz_Z_K_Jailer

pankaj agrawal said:


> F16 IN all the way




^^^^^ F16 IN Noway...
Rafale or EF is best for IAF

regards
Jailer

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## marcos98

i so want the RAFALE to win.


but mark my words, the yanks (F-18) will take this away.


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## Vimana1

Eurofighter all the way it is the best plane in the world after the f22.


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## trident2010

I would prefer:

1. F-18
2. Rafale
3. EF

We need best A2G fighter and F-18 fits the bill perfectly.


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## INDIAN007

pankaj agrawal said:


> F16 IN all the way



F 16 is out of race


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## INDIAN007

I Think we should Go for Mix

126 eurofighter Typhoons

and 74 rafale -> there were news recently that India may opt for additional 74 MMRCA


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## Vimana1

F18 S/H is the best for A2G given the load it can carry but the EF is the best multi-role plane and that is what this tender is all about. EF is the most agile fighter in the contest as well as having a better thrust compared to the Rafale. The only negative would be the price issue if US strings can pressure India to opt for the f18 instead even if EF is no1 in the field trials.


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## the rafter

Hey guys,
No offense, but I think rather than naming your favorite fighter jets the discussion should be: 
1) What is lacking in the IAF fleet (apart from decreased squadrons) that India is looking to fulfill through MMRCA?
2) Which among the six contenders in true sense can fulfill this and NOT just jets with loaded with features to compete with F-22/F-35?
3) Which ones are cheaper in terms of life-cycle cost and maintenance?

Thanks a lot!


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## rockstarIN

IF you ask that way, it is Mirage 2000 (upgraded)


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## the rafter

I don't think so, if it was so then we would have gone for Mirage 2000.
India floated MMRCA because France denied to keep the production line for Mirage open just for India. 
So thats a old chapter. Which among the current six contenders (excluding Mirage) now fit our requirements?


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## Storm Force

Wats your opinion Rafter.

Your Question is excellent 

_ Hey guys,
No offense, but I think rather than naming your favorite fighter jets the discussion should be:
1) What is lacking in the IAF fleet (apart from decreased squadrons) that India is looking to fulfill through MMRCA?
2) Which among the six contenders in true sense can fulfill this and NOT just jets with loaded with features to compete with F-22/F-35?
3) Which ones are cheaper in terms of life-cycle cost and maintenance?_

My attempt to answer that. Is. 

IAF lacks a fighter in low RCS
Late 4th Generation catagory
With true strike capability BUT also Air Superiority ability
TOT 
and to be viable in a Indo China or Indo Pak scenario til 2040 in terms of tech

The Failures

MIG35 does not have good Strike capability is more geared towards Air Combat

F16IN & F18SH both come with TOT issues and in F16IN CASE IS BEING REPLACED globaly by F35 so by 2025 it will be out of date. 

For me 3 euro contenders are the best. 

Gripen is the cheapest
Rafael the most costly.


WHICH MEANS the one LEFT IS THE TYPHOON. 

*Typhoon will win MMRCA *and it appears the british press are suggesting this to be the case already


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## !!craft!!

WTF is goin on???

NEW DELHI - U.S. President Barack Obama's announcement that Washington will endorse India's bid for a permanent seat on the United Nations Security Council could be a game-changer in Indo-American defense and strategic ties, a defense analyst here said.



PRESIDENT OBAMA ADDRESSES India's parliament Nov. 8 in New Delhi. (Jim Watson / Agence France-Presse)
Nitin Mehta said the decision could even swing big-ticket defense projects in favor of U.S. companies, including the $10 billion Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft (MMRCA). Lockheed Martin's F-16 is competing for the contract, as is Boeing's F-18 aircraft, Mehta said.

RELATED TOPICS
Americas
Asia & Pacific Rim
Air Warfare
Obama announced the U.S. support for India's council bid during an address to the parliament here Nov. 8.

"In the years ahead, I look forward to a reformed U.N. Security Council that includes India as a permanent member," Obama told the parliament.

The MMRCA award ultimately will be a political decision, an Indian Air Force official said, agreeing that Obama's announcement to the parliament has the power to swing the MMRCA in favor of an American company.

Meanwhile, India and the U.S. signed six agreements and four memorandums of understanding (MoU) on Nov. 8. These included a MoU for cooperation in setting up a Global Center for Nuclear Energy Partnership.

Under this agreement, India and the U.S. have said they would promote cooperation on initiatives to strengthen global nuclear security and address threats of nuclear terrorism.


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## MAFIAN GOD

@Storm Force:-
I am backing you up man.I am for EF.

but i will not be sad even if Rafale wins.French birds are damn good.


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## SpArK

MAFIAN GOD said:


> @Storm Force:-
> I am backing you up man.I am for EF.
> 
> but i will not be sad even if Rafale wins.French birds are damn good.



Whatever .. let the best fighter win and win it fast.

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## the rafter

I think IAF definitely needs jets with low RCS (F16IN, Rafale, Eurofighter are the ones with low RCS).
All six contenders are more or less 4+ generation or at least have upgrades planned to reach there.
Like most I don't prefer F16IN (reasons already mentioned by many in the forum) and F/A-18 super hornet is good in A to G role but not so good in A to A. In addition, its not exactly a multirole jet. In case of war (which more likely could be against PAK than China), the US will play a mediator role. Being friendly with both Pak and India it can control the weapons supply, radar info, supply of spares etc...

MIG-35 (almost same as MIG-29K which we already have). The new MIG has the AESA radar but offers nothing new from Mig-29 and more over its for air superiority.

Gripen is good jet but has single engine and many US parts (including the engine) and does not offer us any political gains. That leaves us with Rafale and Eurofighter....

Eurofighter is good (if you believe the reports from UK papers) but is still not completely developed. It does not have a fully functional AESA radar and has limited A to G role. Plus it is not yet carrier capable for the navy. I'm not sure who will pay for all the developments. If selected India will be the 5th unofficial partner. So if any developments or changes India wants to make, permission has to be taken from 4 other partners?

Rafale in my opinion is equally good. It is good in A to A and A to G role, has a working AESA (even though not as advanced as F16IN and Super hornet). It also has a operational navy version. But for some reasons has not been able to make a single international sale (although its reported to be closing on Brazil deal). It is costly compared to eurofighter. This makes the spares and life-time costs high. Also, it needs up-grades (not sure who will pay for this).
Even though all I stated is my opinion through various articles and websites i've read. *I seriously invite experts in IAF and around the world reading this to contribute their views and suggestions.*

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## SpArK

*AESA radars for the land of elephants, courtesy @NorthropGrumman's new print ad​*








 "_*whatever*_".​


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## Johny D

too much noise has been made about AESA by west to sell their product to third world cash rich countries ....i read somewhere even china has developed its own AESA...so what is special in it? can anyone prove if ur fighter doesnt ve an AESA it cant kill other enemy fighter having AESA installed? all is bs...F-16 is big BS, may be good for countries that fight agianst internal terroism but not for the counties with global aspirations and giant communist enemy....India need Rafale/F35 if at all MRCA has to go through...and more and more MKI and PakFA


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## captonjohn

the rafter said:


> Hey guys,
> No offense, but I think rather than naming your favorite fighter jets the discussion should be:
> 1) What is lacking in the IAF fleet (apart from decreased squadrons) that India is looking to fulfill through MMRCA?
> 2) Which among the six contenders in true sense can fulfill this and NOT just jets with loaded with features to compete with F-22/F-35?
> 3) Which ones are cheaper in terms of life-cycle cost and maintenance?
> 
> Thanks a lot!



Nice question, Here is my answer.

1. IAF is lacking in air superiority which is most important factor in 21st century as well as effective A2G capability. RCS would third need.

2. Now among six contender 
F-18 has very effective air to ground capability but it lack in air to air superiority role hence its role becomes limited for IAF needs in which MRCA may need to fight against many fighters of Pak-China air force. Also at present both Pak-China has very limited air to air superiority fighters and hence india can easily get advantage in air to air superiority. 
To win future war air superiority is must to hold our and enemy's sky control. 

Mig-35 is in its development stage and doesn't meet the needs what IAF wants also there not any big technological advantage seems between Mig-29 and Mig-35. 

Rafale and Eurofighter are the main competitor but rafale is also not completely developed and its AESA radar is also in development stage. Eurofighter has advantage in this case because of its developed stage and effective air to air role. Of course it also don't have desired air to ground capability but it may fulfill nearly 90% needs of IAF. 

Another reason to win eurofighter may be some strategical and political matters like if India engage in war with Pak or china then US may interrupt its supply which can affect indian capability if india choose F-18 this is negative point of this fighter.

Hence in my view Euro fighter has true potential to win but it could be win-win condition if India choose two fighters for its MRCA. Then it would be Euro fighter and F-18 of course. 

3. The third question of cost is important but IAF doesn't seems to compromise on quality over quality hence it is least likely to affect indian MRCA deal.


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## SpArK

Has anybody got any update on Mig's proposed light weight 5th Generation fighter?


Reported many years back.. never heard anything after that.


http://www.ato.ru/content/migs-fifth-generation-fighter-builds-new-momentum


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## !!craft!!

BENNY said:


> Has anybody got any update on Mig's proposed light weight 5th Generation fighter?
> 
> 
> Reported many years back.. never heard anything after that.
> 
> 
> MiG's Fifth Generation Fighter Builds up New Momentum | ???????????????? ?????????











i think the project is scraped .MiG-1.44 was a testbed. It was never meant to go into production. Just an experimental plane. It was the first testbed with TVC, *some* stealth features, lowered IR emmisions and internal weapon bay. It served its purpose, now its sitting in some dusty hangar at MiG plant in Zhukovskiy.

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## SpArK

!!craft!! said:


> i think the project is scraped .MiG-1.44 was a testbed. It was never meant to go into production. Just an experimental plane. It was the first testbed with TVC, *some* stealth features, lowered IR emmisions and internal weapon bay. It served its purpose, now its sitting in some dusty hangar at MiG plant in Zhukovskiy.



Thanks for the info.. we should have joined them when they were seeking foreign partners back then.. 

Anyway lets move with our on medium one.. 

Any latest "reports" on who has won as usual..


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## sancho

Storm Force said:


> My attempt to answer that. Is.
> 
> IAF lacks a fighter in low RCS
> Late 4th Generation catagory
> *With true strike capability* BUT also Air Superiority ability
> TOT
> and to be viable in a Indo China or Indo Pak scenario til 2040 in terms of tech...
> 
> ...For me 3 euro contenders are the best.
> 
> Gripen is the cheapest
> *Rafael the most costly*.
> 
> 
> *WHICH MEANS the one LEFT IS THE TYPHOON.*



Wrong conclusion Storm Force, because even British reports admit that EF is the most expensive fighter and are guessing mainly that it could be cheaper during the life cycle, but it is for sure not as cost-effective as Rafale for Indian forces:



> The disclosure is a significant boost for the Typhoon consortium, but it must now address Indian concerns that the Eurofighter is more expensive than its competitors in upfront costs. British, German, Spanish and Italian officials are confident however that it will be cheaper than its competitors over the lifetime of its deployment.



UK closes in on $11bn fighter deal - Telegraph

You are right that strike capabilities are important for MMRCA, but exactly here the EF lacks far behind, so it doesn't really fit to the requirements you mentioned right?




BENNY said:


> Has anybody got any update on Mig's proposed light weight 5th Generation fighter?
> 
> 
> Reported many years back.. never heard anything after that.



Hi Benny,there are rumors that China is using the Mig design (maybe it was even sold to them) as a base for their 5. gen fighter development.


P.S. a new pic of the Gripen NG demonstrator with 2 LGBs, the new fuel tanks METEOR and IRIS-T missiles:







If we had teamed up with Saab for Gripen/Tejas in that time, there would be no question about MMRCA. We would see numbers of MK1 flying for years and jointly develop the NG/MK 2 version now. Sad that we missed a good chance, because we wanted to develop everything alone!

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## sancho

the rafter said:


> ...Rafale in my opinion is equally good. It is good in A to A and A to G role, has a working AESA (even though not as advanced as F16IN and Super hornet). It also has a operational navy version. But for some reasons has not been able to make a single international sale (although its reported to be closing on Brazil deal). *It is costly compared to eurofighter*. This makes the spares and life-time costs high. *Also, it needs up-grades* (not sure who will pay for this).
> Even though all I stated is my opinion through various articles and websites i've read. I seriously invite experts in IAF and around the world reading this to contribute their views and suggestions.



Hi rafter, you made a good summary, but these 2 points are not correct, the Rafale is not more expensive than EF, check my last post and it don't needs further upgrades. When you compare the versions that were offered in MMRCA, it is the fighter with one of the highest tech and maturity levels.
There is no fighter in the competition that offers a very low RCS, a ready AESA radar, high sensor fusion, integrated IRST and even 5. gen EWS capabilities, a good T/W ratio and maneuverability, high payload, numbers of weapon stations, and range + advanced weapons combined in 1 package that is even available from 2012 onwards!
Besides several other advantages that the French offers in the deal, imo the Rafale is the only fighter in the competition, that could be used in SFC and IN for the nuclear role and as a carrier fighter too. That means, we can use the omni role advantage to the max for all of our forces too and no other fighter gives this advantage too (doubt that the F18SH could be an alternative for the nuclear role)! So instead of procuring different fighters, for different roles, with different spares and weapons, we could simply use Rafale and get a high ammount of commonality!

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## SpArK

sancho said:


> Hi Benny,there are rumors that China is using the Mig design (maybe it was even sold to them) as a base for their 5. gen fighter development.





oops.


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## Sri

BENNY said:


> Has anybody got any update on Mig's proposed light weight 5th Generation fighter?
> 
> 
> Reported many years back.. never heard anything after that.
> 
> 
> MiG's Fifth Generation Fighter Builds up New Momentum | ???????????????? ?????????



.:: MiG-LFI / I-2000 ::.


There is not much info available on this


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## KEETARP

Sancho & Rafale still going great guns , uhmm



sancho said:


> Hi Benny,there are rumors that China is using the Mig design (maybe it was even sold to them) as a base for their 5. gen fighter development.



But Mig's light weight fighter design was supposed to be a single engined one , MigI2000 or something like that . 
How can JXX which is rumored to be twin engined , will be based on same design .




> If we had teamed up with Saab for Gripen/Tejas in that time, there would be no question about MMRCA. We would see numbers of MK1 flying for years and jointly develop the NG/MK 2 version now. Sad that we missed a good chance, because we wanted to develop everything alone!



LCA + Gripen on same side is still possible , infact with Ge414 i am much more hard pressed to believe

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## sancho

Hi Prateek, haven't seen you for quit a while now, but good that you are back!



PRATEEK said:


> Sancho & Rafale still going great guns , uhmm



For sure, because there is no new reason to believe that another fighter would suit Indian forces better and that's why I support it. 




PRATEEK said:


> But Mig's light weight fighter design was supposed to be a single engined one , MigI2000 or something like that .
> How can JXX which is rumored to be twin engined , will be based on same design .



I replied to Bennys post, where the source refers to Mig 1.44 as the base for LMFS:



> Most probably, the LMFS will retain the delta canard configuration of the heavy MiG 1.44 prototype. Being asked directly about the new fighter configuration, Barkovskiy answered indirectly: "It would be illogical if we reject the experience we accumulated while developing that project [MiG 1.44]." He also mentioned that "the number of wind tunnel tests [of the 1.44 models] was vast, setting a new record in Russia. [So] we are making use of these materials and transforming them into the fifth generation aircraft."
> It is not known at the moment whether the new MiG fighter will be powered by one or two engines. Originally, the company's design had two Klimov VK-10 turbofans rated at about 10.5 tons each, which are a further development of the MiG-29's RD-33 engines.



*Mig 1.44:*







*Possible J-XX design:*







It would be a logical design evolution of the J10 too and could use the same engine that J11 and J10 are using. One have to admit, that they clearly did the right choice by choosing a medium class Lavy / J10 design instead of a light class LCA design like us. 




PRATEEK said:


> LCA + Gripen on same side is still possible , infact with Ge414 i am much more hard pressed to believe



Unlikely, because in that time we could have combined both developments into one, which would have provided much more benefits like:

- Gripen design but high content of Indian compoite materials
- Kaveri - Volvo engine, not a foreign procured engine that is not sanction proof
- Ericsson - LRDE MM and AESA radar, again a co-development that gives us total control
- Jointly developed datalinks, EWS and other avionics 

They would have been the logical partner for us then, because of common aims and they could helped us in the fields where we lacked behind (airframe design, engine and radar developments) and we could helped them where they had problems (a partner with enough money to fund the project, that has a big own requirement, that wants to develop an own engine, instead of procuring a foreign one, that offer the advantage of low production costs and knowledge about composite materials). 

But now things are different, Gripen and Tejas are 2 similar fighters and even competitors at the same level, in comparison to a Tejas / Rafale combo for example. Also MMRCA now is aimed on advantages for our forces as well our industry and the politics too and that will break Gripens neck in India like it possibly did already in Brazil. 
Gripen NG DEMO is still under development only just like our own Tejas, has no orders yet, has average strike capability and is not sanction prove, which obviously will be a problem for our forces. The ToT is limited because all main techs comes from foreign countries, Saab also can offer only less offsets than other vendors (like it was reported in other competitions too), so it doesn't help our industry and we all know that Sweden has no political, or strategic value for India.
If a common engine between LCA and MMRCA is a point, then only for the SH and the US obviously will take care of it by providing ToT only if we choose the SH, but less for the Gripen...

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## BATMAN

I would disagree to the scheme being discussed above.

I think if English, French, Americans, Russians and Israelis failed to help you than venture with Swedish may not have turned up any different.



> MIG-35 (almost same as MIG-29K which we already have). The new MIG has the AESA radar but offers nothing new from Mig-29 and more over its for air superiority.



Is it a bad deal? Honestly, this is the best option for IAF but of course F-16 is tempting.


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## CONNAN

BENNY said:


> Thanks for the info.. we should have joined them when they were seeking foreign partners back then..
> 
> Anyway lets move with our on medium one..
> 
> Any latest "reports" on who has won as usual..



for some reason i smell french cheese


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## Vimana1

French would sell Rafale technology to China without even blinking if EU did not have a embargo, the best bet for India is the EF which is a true MRCA in every respect the Rafale has not won a single order because it is inferior to the EF just ask the Saudis.


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## Hulk

I also agree Rafael makes sense. I will not like to go the US route as they want all those agreements signed. Plus French will provide us best TOT that can help our future plans.


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## the rafter

1) Can anyone provide any info about which amongst the six contenders have the ability to fly at high altitudes? and whether this can be used to evade detection or G to A missiles?
2) Which ones have the best Radar detection evading paint along with low RCS? eg. link: (New Stealth Nano-Paint Turns Any Aircraft Into a Radar-Evading Stealth Plane | Popular Science)


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## the rafter

BATMAN said:


> Quote:
> MIG-35 (almost same as MIG-29K which we already have). The new MIG has the AESA radar but offers nothing new from Mig-29 and more over its for air superiority.
> 
> Is it a bad deal? Honestly, this is the best option for IAF but of course F-16 is tempting.



Its not about good or bad deal. Every aircraft has its advantages and disadvantages. MIG just doesn't measure up to what is expected out of MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft). First, there's only few proto-types built, no production line and none in Russian airforce (so far). Second, does not offer any new political advantage. Third, India does not want to limit the entire fleet only with Russian tech. So, why not just swap the old radar with new AESA and other upgrades in MIG-29K to make equal to MIG-35. Sounds reasonable...?


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## rockstarIN

the rafter said:


> Its not about good or bad deal. Every aircraft has its advantages and disadvantages. MIG just doesn't measure up to what is expected out of MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft). First, there's only few proto-types built, no production line and none in Russian airforce (so far). Second, does not offer any new political advantage. Third, India does not want to limit the entire fleet only with Russian tech. So, why not just swap the old radar with new AESA and other upgrades in MIG-29K to make equal to MIG-35. Sounds reasonable...?



Why cant we co produce the russian AESA radar for Tejas?


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## AMCA

rockstar said:


> Why cant we co produce the russian AESA radar for Tejas?



We could have but we already are with Israel in ELTA 520 Hybrid


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## GORKHALI

Here's a piece of news from russia with love - Russia offered SU 35 to china, a eye opener to govt of india...New Su-35 fighter can attack eight targets simultaneously | Video | RIA Novosti


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## luckyyy

kapoor said:


> Here's a piece of news from russia with love - Russia offered SU 35 to china, a eye opener to govt of india...New Su-35 fighter can attack eight targets simultaneously | Video | RIA Novosti




MMRCA should go for Eurofighter........


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## GORKHALI

The early we opened our eyes ,the better position we going to be.. My dad is in SAM 6 PECHORA SQN and he use to tell me how russian arm twist indians and let us pay huge amount of money in the name of after sales care ,even for the missile carriers,towing like kraz,urals,compressors etc . No body is saint here,they made their point that there vehicles spare parts should only be purchased from them else they going to sue for breaching the contracts even many of the vehicles are 20 old.Nothing is free,its all farce that russian equipments are cheap and economical.


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## GORKHALI

I must say we doing the same mistake again by joining hands with them for pak fa and MTA.. Just simply concentrate on our indigineous weapon system like LCA MK2,AMCA ,SARAS ,AURA etc .. Atleast we can say these stuff will be with us only.


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## mjnaushad

kapoor said:


> I must say we doing the same mistake again by joining hands with them for pak fa and MTA.. Just simply concentrate on our indigineous weapon system like LCA MK2,AMCA ,SARAS ,AURA etc .. Atleast we can say these stuff will be with us only.


Sorry to interrupt. I dont usually post on Indian threads as anything i'll say will be consider troll. But allow me this once. 

I can't understand why Indians feels that having a project with another country is a mistake. Look at Dhruv. Its yours but with little help of French you made it on time. It also scored few exports. There no shame in it. thats how things works. If you say no we dont want help from anyone. Its a mistake. Then it was a bye bye for Dhruv. 

Look at LCA. Its good the plane is going to be inducted soon. Nice effort. But still dont you thing doing everything on your own stretched its timeline a little too long.


As long staying things will be with you concerns you'll sale weapons to other countries just like Dhruv. Don't you want costumers for Arjun. so in the end you wont be the only user.

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## luckyyy

kapoor said:


> I must say we doing the same mistake again by joining hands with them for pak fa and MTA.. Just simply concentrate on our indigineous weapon system like LCA MK2,AMCA ,SARAS ,AURA etc .. Atleast we can say these stuff will be with us only.



most of the parts of pak fa and MTA will be menufecture in india but the most inportent part * the engine* will still be imported from russia...

i hope somehow we can fly MTA with kerveri engines..


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## GORKHALI

mjnaushad said:


> Sorry to interrupt. I dont usually post on Indian threads as anything i'll say will be consider troll. But allow me this once.
> 
> I can't understand why Indians feels that having a project with another country is a mistake. Look at Dhruv. Its yours but with little help of French you made it on time. It also scored few exports. There no shame in it. thats how things works. If you say no we dont want help from anyone. Its a mistake. Then it was a bye bye for Dhruv.
> 
> Look at LCA. Its good the plane is going to be inducted soon. Nice effort. But still dont you thing doing everything on your own stretched its timeline a little too long.
> 
> 
> As long staying things will be with you concerns you'll sale weapons to other countries just like Dhruv. Don't you want costumers for Arjun. so in the end you wont be the only user.



hope you heard about turbomeca debacle ?? and thankfully there nothing russian in dhruv else again we have to pay from our noses.Arjun mbt is already developed without russian assistance and CVRDE started manufacturing this already,its no longer looking for customer as indian army is quiet enough to fulfill there order bag and you can expect couple of more order here with 124 +124 within 2years.USE Indian ,buy Indian that should be our moto


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## CONNAN

luckyyy said:


> most of the parts of pak fa and MTA will be menufecture in india but the most inportent part * the engine* will still be imported from russia...
> 
> i hope somehow we can fly MTA with kerveri engines..



lucky transport plane fly on high-bypass turbofan engine. there is no way we can use a low bypass engine like kavari for MTA


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## luckyyy

connanxlrc1000 said:


> lucky transport plane fly on high-bypass turbofan engine. there is no way we can use a low bypass engine like kavari for MTA



why for they are testing it on IL-76....?


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## rockstarIN

AMCA said:


> We could have but we already are with Israel in ELTA 520 Hybrid



So far I know, Elta is Multi Mode Radar, not an AESA.

Since IAF wants to incorporate an AESA into Tejas in MK-2, why don't we pick russian Radar. 

We must have got the abilities of the same while we testing for MMRCA, Mig-35, so take out the radar if it is worthy and incorporate into Tejas.


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## AMCA

rockstar said:


> So far I know, Elta is Multi Mode Radar, not an AESA.
> 
> Since IAF wants to incorporate an AESA into Tejas in MK-2, why don't we pick russian Radar.
> 
> We must have got the abilities of the same while we testing for MMRCA, Mig-35, so take out the radar if it is worthy and incorporate into Tejas.



Hmnn But do You think these radars could be accommodated into Tejas?? Where as Indigenous AESA Has been put to Use in several other ways, We are yet to miniaturize it to Be fixed on a fighter aircraft.... 

Lets Wait and See If Indigenous AESA is ready by that Time frame....


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## rockstarIN

kapoor said:


> Here's a piece of news from russia with love - Russia offered SU 35 to china, a eye opener to govt of india...New Su-35 fighter can attack eight targets simultaneously | Video | RIA Novosti



Russia will never turn their back to china, in fact they wants both of us as their valid customer. We use/tell the same to Russia too, it is the same way like India & China is to Russia, US & Russia to us.


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## CONNAN

luckyyy said:


> why for they are testing it on IL-76....?



its a general test done for various parameters so the once all the parameters are met it can be used on LCA it is not meant for MTA . IL 76 is only a test bed

and also if tested on LCA PLATFORM If something goes wrong we will loose the test bed ie LCA . In case of IL 76 it still has its three engines to get back safely


the test bed shown ie IL 76 is like a mobile lab in common terms it also carries the scientists where they can monitor the kaveri engine during various parts of flight


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## sudhir007




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## RPK

*Has Eurofighter forged ahead in India's MMRCA competition? : Defense news*


flurry of reports in the Indian media quoting unnamed sources have pointed out that the Eurofighter Typhoon has forged ahead of the other contenders in India&#8217;s bid to buy 126 MMRCA fighter jets for an estimated $10 billion. 


An expected visit of Britain&#8217;s Defence Secretary Liam Fox to New Delhi later this month is seen as sales call on the Indian MoD to further hardsell the Eurofighter to India.

While one report said Eurofighter was ahead on technical evaluation by the Indian Air Force, another said Eurofighter and the Dassault Rafale had scored more points than the others in the technical evaluation report submitted to the MoD over three months ago.

However, there is no official word from the MOD and none of the six contenders- Lockheed Martin, Boeing, Eurofighter, MiG, Dassault and SAAB Gripen-have received any communication about the status of their bid. &#8220;There is complete silence. We have not heard anything from the MoD after the completion of the flight tests&#8221;, a senior Gripen Executive said.

The MOD has been sending queries to the IAF on the MMRCA competition in relation to the performance parameters and the latter has been responding to it, according to IAF Chief P.V. Naik who was quoted as saying during a news conference.

Informed sources told Defenseworld.net that the technical evaluation report lists out how each contender fared against specific clauses in the RFP and whether they met the performance parameters as outlined. &#8220;At the end of the technical evaluation, there are winners and losers. The winners will be in the shortlist who will be invited for commercial negotiations.&#8221; &#8220;At this time, we don&#8217;t know which ones will be in the shortlist. While some aircraft may be ahead of others on purely technical parameters, issues such as life cycle costs and offsets could complicate matters in deciding the shortlist&#8221;, the sources said.


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## sancho

kapoor said:


> I must say we doing the same mistake again by joining hands with them for pak fa and MTA.. Just simply concentrate on our indigineous weapon system like LCA MK2,AMCA ,SARAS ,AURA etc .. Atleast we can say these stuff will be with us only.



There a some things you have to understand:

1) Exactly to not be arms twisted, or surprised by later price hikes, we went to partnerships like Su 30 MKI, Brahmos, FGFA, or MRTA. Beeing a partner and having involvement in these projects, gives us way more control and less risk of such kind of problems, that we have when we are a simple buyer only.

2) That is not special to Russia, but to any country that sells us their arms, look at the US and C17 now. They now exactly there is no other option in this class and raised the price dramatically. 

3) Be realistic please! LCA not ready, Saras not ready, AMCA and AURA only on paper and with our present capabilities they will remain a dream if we go for it alone.

India is a rising power, no doubt about that! But come on folks, lets face the reality and don't let us hype some minor successes, we have still a long long way to go.




kapoor said:


> hope you heard about turbomeca debacle ?? and thankfully there nothing russian in dhruv else again we have to pay from our noses.Arjun mbt is already developed without russian assistance and CVRDE started manufacturing this already,its no longer looking for customer as indian army is quiet enough to fulfill there order bag and you can expect couple of more order here with 124 +124 within 2years.USE Indian ,buy Indian that should be our moto



Turbomecca debacle, when did that happen? Last time I checked IAF is very happy to get Shakti engine for Dhruv and LCH and ask yourself why they can ask for more money to re-design Shakti engine to be used in HALs LUH? Because we are not able to do it alone, nor to develop an own engine, as it was planed in the begining. Also please check how much equipment in Arjun is foreign origin, that doesn't mean it is not an indigenous development, but that we still need a lot of stuff from them, to develop latest arms. 

Mjnaushad is correct about Dhruv, because we went the right way then and now learned to do more alone as we proved with LCH and in future LUH, or MUH. With LCA instead we did exactly the opposite, first tried to do it alone and now search for consultancy, or partnerships. 

*As long as we are not at a comparable level in the aero industry like most major powers and we don't want to be dependent on others, partnerships and co-developments are the best and safest way to go!*

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## INDIAN007

BENNY said:


> Has anybody got any update on Mig's proposed light weight 5th Generation fighter?
> 
> 
> Reported many years back.. never heard anything after that.
> 
> 
> MiG&#039;s Fifth Generation Fighter Builds up New Momentum | ???????????????? ?????????



MIG 1.44 was for testing purpose - It is scrapped 

but

Russia is now constructing a new stealth lightweight multirole fighter [5th gen ] MiG-LMFS (MiG-1.27) by Mikoyan aircraft manufacturer. This jet fighter is based on the canceled MiG 1.44.

a compiteitor to F - 35 

Mikoyan LMFS - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## SpArK

INDIAN007 said:


> MIG 1.44 was for testing purpose - It is scrapped
> 
> but
> 
> Russia is now constructing a new stealth lightweight multirole fighter [5th gen ] MiG-LMFS (MiG-1.27) by Mikoyan aircraft manufacturer. This jet fighter is based on the canceled MiG 1.44.
> 
> a compiteitor to F - 35
> 
> Mikoyan LMFS - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Ive been following it too.. but not much info is available regarding it... 

If things go well we will see it in here.. if the program is alive better join them.


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## the rafter

BENNY said:


> Ive been following it too.. but not much info is available regarding it...
> 
> If things go well we will see it in here.. if the program is alive better join them.


It could well be a dream/rumor since Sukhoi and Mig have merged. I think it would be redundant to design a new aircraft when PAK-FA being built by Sukhoi is still not complete.
http://www.russianavia.net/index.php#state=NewsDetail&id=644


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## !!craft!!

Liogkiy Mnogofunktsionalniy Frontovoi Samolyet (LMFS)
[Light Multi-Function Frontal Aircraft]
Light Multi-Role Tactical Aircraft
In November 2006 it was reported that the Russian Air Force had made an unexpected shift in the priorities for its future fighter, with the service will back the simultaneous development of two programs for a fifth-generation aircraft. The PAK FA medium-weight fighter program, which had been underway since 2002, was joined by MiG's lighter-weight aircraft project. In addition to the goal of winning domestic orders, MiG's light multi-role fighter, built on the company's earlier experience with its MiG 1.44 program, also may attract India as a co-developer and future customer.

In April 2002, the Russian military chose Sukhoi's T-50 proposal in the fifth-generation fighter contest &#8212; which was codenamed the Perspektivniy Aviatsionniy Kompleks Frontovoi Aviatsii (PAK FA), or future tactical aviation air system. The Sukhoi T-50's rival in 2002 was the MiG design, the exact designation of which is classified. Later, when MiG Corp. decided to continue this program, it received the codename Liogkiy Mnogofunktsionalniy Frontovoi Samolyot (LMFS) or Light Multi-role Tactical Aircraft. MiG Corp. did not accept defeat in the contest against Sukhoi.

In 2005 MiG's LMFS project came out of the shadows again. The Indian Defense Research and Development Organization (DRDO) and Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) started analyzing the development options for a home-grown fifth-generation fighter, called the Medium Combat Aircraft (MCA), which was a twin-engine version of the its Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas fighter. After a bad experience with the LCA, India sought a partner in Russia for the MCA program.

*A great advantage of the MiG project is the fact that its design and technical parameters are significantly different from the Sukhoi T-50. As a result, the market does not have to choose between an "either-or" situation, and both aircraft can find their place, depending upon the needs of potential export clients.*

The LMFS will be about 30&#37; lighter than the T-50. According to approximate assessments, the T-50 will have a normal take-off weight of 21 tons, which places it between present MiG-29 and Su-27 fighters &#8212; whereas the LMFS is likely to weigh 15 tons. Most probably, the LMFS will retain the delta canard configuration of the heavy MiG 1.44 prototype.

In April 2006, the St. Petersburg-based Klimov Company announced that it had started design work on a new engine for the next-generation lightweight fighter being developed by MiG Corp. Although MiG has yet to define all of its requirements for the future engine, Klimov representatives said their powerplant will have increased thrust, a vectoring nozzle and modular design.

the crafts specs look good ,i mean acheiving 15% less weight that the t50 is remarkable. imo.india should give second thoughts in joining hands with the russians...


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## INDIAN007

If another 5th gen MIG Project is underway - and If Russia Is looking for partner , we should join the project


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## Ammyy

INDIAN007 said:


> If another 5th gen MIG Project is underway - and If Russia Is looking for partner , we should join the project



Sirji kitne project join karenge ????

FGFA, PAKFA, AMCA, F35( May be possible for navy) 

Or kitne ?? Itna paisa kaha se aayega


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## INDIAN007

DRDO said:


> Sirji kitne project join karenge ????
> 
> FGFA, PAKFA, AMCA, F35( May be possible for navy)
> 
> Or kitne ??



FGFA and PAK FA are two different projects - we are partnered with russia on FGFA , so FGFA = yes

AMCA = yes

f 35 = for navy [ may or may not be in future ]

russian Mig 5th gen light fighter = IF project is alive , and russians are looking for partner , then I dont see any problem in Joining the project . This will supplement our Air force even further.



> Itna paisa kaha se aayega



common yaar .. Itna paisa toh hai humare Govt ke pass


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## sudhir007

DRDO said:


> *Or kitne ?? Itna paisa kaha se aayega*



Swiss bank me jo 200 billion dollar pada hai na  woh kab kaam aayga

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## MZUBAIR

Is any AC finalised?


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## SpArK

MZUBAIR said:


> Is any AC finalised?



Nope... not yet..


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## Markus

MZUBAIR said:


> Is any AC finalised?



Behind closed doors among top govt. circles = Yes.

Out in the open among the public = No.


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## sancho

Markus said:


> Behind closed doors among top govt. circles = Yes.
> 
> Out in the open among the public = No.



Only if it is a political decision, otherwise we will first shortlist the contendors and wait for their final offers, only then we can decide which fighter will win.


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## sancho

Crossposting from the MP forum:



> *Lula talks with Sarkozy and indicates choosing the Rafale
> Fohla , nov 17*
> 
> 
> After talking with French President Nicolas Sarkozy during the G20 meeting in Seoul last week, President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva said on Wednesday that he will meet the elected president Rousseff and the Minister of Defense Nelson Jobim, to finally hit the hammer on the purchase of fighter planes for the military.
> 
> The Rafale fighter jets built by French company Dassault compete with the American F/A-18 Super Hornet (Boeing) and the Swedish Gripen (Saab) with a billion dollar contract to buy 36 jets from Brazil.
> 
> Lula has demonstrated a preference for French planes, but as his government is at the end, he must take the decision together with Dilma.
> 
> "I think it's an important decision and also one of those decisions I can not take alone because and its is a long term thing and im a month and a half to finish my mandate. *I talked with Sarkozy. I'll talk to Dilma and Jobim and with you and with the press*, "he said in an interview at the Planalto Palace.



Seems like a decision is made and only the new President has to agree.


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## SpArK

sancho said:


> Crossposting from the MP forum:
> 
> 
> 
> Seems like a decision is made and only the new President has to agree.




Will it have any impact on our competition??


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## sancho

BENNY said:


> Will it have any impact on our competition??



Maybe, the cost of Rafale could sink, depending on how many they will order at the end. Also the variety of weapons available for Rafale could be enhanced if the Brazilians integrate other than the French weapons, MAR 1 anti radiation missile could be a good choice, possibly also A - Darter SR missile that they co-develop with South Africa.


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## SpArK

sancho said:


> Maybe, the cost of Rafale could sink, depending on how many they will order at the end. Also the variety of weapons available for Rafale could be enhanced if the Brazilians integrate other than the French weapons, MAR 1 anti radiation missile could be a good choice, possibly also A - Darter SR missile that they co-develop with South Africa.



Lets hope Sarkozy scores a double.


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## INDIAN007

France offers to Indian Air Force for purchasing 40 Rafale fighters - All India Today

I just got through this ..... a 5 months old article ....


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## SpArK

INDIAN007 said:


> France offers to Indian Air Force for purchasing 40 Rafale fighters - All India Today
> 
> I just got through this ..... a 5 months old article ....



Off the shelf ..that too fast.. we have discussed it earlier and there was a news of strategic command planning to buy 40 for nuclear deliveries..

nothing heard after that..

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## sancho

BENNY said:


> Lets hope Sarkozy scores a double.



Hope so too, even more interesting would be if they can fix the deal with UAE, because they would fund even more improvements.

- HMS
- higher thrust engines (although I prefer Kaveri-Snecma engine)
- higher weapon payloads
- possibly further upgrades to radar and EWS
- SLAM - ER integration
- maybe even CFTs

not to mention 60 more Rafales on order.




INDIAN007 said:


> France offers to Indian Air Force for purchasing 40 Rafale fighters - All India Today
> 
> I just got through this ..... a 5 months old article ....




As long MMRCA is not decided, this offer has no point, because although it is good for our shrinking numbers, we have to finalise the winner first. Rafale is the only fighter that is an alternative for all 3 forces, but if the SH wins, I guess SFC will choose MKI, or Su 34s in the nuclear role.
Personally, instead of 40 x fighters of the same type for the nuclear role, I would split it into 20 x Rafales and 20 x MKIs / Su 34s, because I think that role would be too important to depent on a single type only. In any case of technical problems, this option to answer (India has no first strike policy!) would be gone.

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## sathya

40 aircrafts does not mean 40 only.... other 240 su mki can any day drop nuke..


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## Ammyy

sancho said:


> As long MMRCA is not decided, this offer has no point, because although it is good for our shrinking numbers, we have to finalise the winner first. Rafale is the only fighter that is an alternative for all 3 forces, but if the SH wins, I guess SFC will choose MKI, or Su 34s in the nuclear role.
> Personally, instead of 40 x fighters of the same type for the nuclear role, I would split it into 20 x Rafales and 20 x MKIs / Su 34s, because I think that role would be too important to depent on a single type only. In any case of technical problems, this option to answer (India has no first strike policy!) would be gone.



*Well i think best combo is

30 to 35 su 34s (for current use)
5 to 10 PaK-Da (After Development) *


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## luckyyy

DRDO said:


> *Well i think best combo is
> 
> 30 to 35 su 34s (for current use)
> 5 to 10 PaK-Da (After Development) *



PAK-DA ?, the last high altitude fighter which russia gave to india was the mig-25 , even at that time the russians won't agree to equiped it with any type of weapons , india only can use them for spying..


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## Dash

> As long MMRCA is not decided, this offer has no point, because although it is good for our shrinking numbers, we have to finalise the winner first. Rafale is the only fighter that is an alternative for all 3 forces, but if the SH wins, I guess SFC will choose MKI, or Su 34s in the nuclear role.
> Personally, instead of 40 x fighters of the same type for the nuclear role, I would split it into 20 x Rafales and 20 x MKIs / Su 34s, because I think that role would be too important to depent on a single type only. In any case of technical problems, this option to answer (India has no first strike policy!) would be gone.



Hi Sancho - 

I dont see the French lobying hard for Rafale these days, even before while others a pitching too hard, including EF.
Mind that EF is pitching despite getting export customers (confirrmed) are trying level best to catch a deal with us, while French are just not seem to do nothing.

What couldd bee the reason?, are the very confident or they think Brazil is more important than India.


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## Vimana1

Rafale has not won a single export order the whole programme is flawed if the French win the Brazil tender it will only be due to the close relations of the 2 nations.


France desperate for Rafale sales in Persian Gulf - UPI.com


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## Basha_Trichy

I dont see the French lobying hard for Rafale these days....

maybe they are over confident?


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## Vimana1

Basha_Trichy said:


> I dont see the French lobying hard for Rafale these days....
> 
> maybe they are over confident?





The only tender they can win is the Brazil one at the moment unless Sarkozy makes India a deal it can not say no to when he arrives, the rafale does not have a single export order so far.


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## sancho

Dash said:


> Hi Sancho -
> 
> I dont see the French lobying hard for Rafale these days, even before while others a pitching too hard, including EF.
> Mind that EF is pitching despite getting export customers (confirrmed) are trying level best to catch a deal with us, while French are just not seem to do nothing.
> 
> What couldd bee the reason?, are the very confident or they think Brazil is more important than India.



I talked with Benny recently about it too:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/1253019-post3225.html


Generally one can say, those who have the less good product/the less chances, will also make more PR. EF Consortium and Saab are really desperate for a foreign customer, LM just tries the minimum, because they know that they have only limited chances and are concentrating on F35 anyway (which is badly needed!), Boeing for example advertise way less for F18SH, than for other products of them (P8, C17, recently CH47) and Dassault as I said focus mainly on convincing IAF/IN/MoD/GoI and not the public at the moment (womder what Sarkozy will offer when he will arrive in some weeks).

I hope things will change when the Brazilian competition is done and that the French will send their Rafales to Aero India 2011, because they have their carrier here in that time anyway.


Talking of EF consortium, there are rumors that UK sold 24 EFs to Oman for a systemcost of around $93 million each, but it is not confirmed so far and nobody knows if they are new, or used once. 
However, that also shows the financial situation of the EF partners, because either they reduce their original orders (what still costs them penalty), or like in this case, try to sell those fighters to other countries. The UK did the same with EFs for Saudi Arabia, most of the Austrian fighters were used German Luftwaffe fighters and they try to sell Greece some EFs too. The fact that the partner countries can't even keep their own orders, should tell us something about fundings for upgrades, or integrations of weapon and techs in future. That's why they need India and why they are pushing so hard! 

Imo the GE engine deal for Tejas was the kill for EF in MMRCA, because it would have reduced the costs of EF to produce the engine under licence for both fighters and further developments would have been possible too. Now EF still remains the most expensive fighter, with confirmed delays in the development of T3, limited available weapons and no versions for SFC, or IN.

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## dbc

sancho said:


> I talked with Benny recently about it too:
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/1253019-post3225.html
> 
> 
> Generally one can say, those who have the less good product/the less chances, will also make more PR. EF Consortium and Saab are really desperate for a foreign customer, LM just tries the minimum, because they know that they have only limited chances and are concentrating on F35 anyway (which is badly needed!), Boeing for example advertise way less for F18SH, than for other products of them (P8, C17, recently CH47) and Dassault as I said focus mainly on convincing IAF/IN/MoD/GoI and not the public at the moment (womder what Sarkozy will offer when he will arrive in some weeks).
> 
> I hope things will change when the Brazilian competition is done and that the French will send their Rafales to Aero India 2011, because they have their carrier here in that time anyway.
> 
> 
> Talking of EF consortium, there are rumors that UK sold 24 EFs to Oman for a systemcost of around $93 million each, but it is not confirmed so far and nobody knows if they are new, or used once.
> However, that also shows the financial situation of the EF partners, because either they reduce their original orders (what still costs them penalty), or like in this case, try to sell those fighters to other countries. The UK did the same with EFs for Saudi Arabia, most of the Austrian fighters were used German Luftwaffe fighters and they try to sell Greece some EFs too. *The fact that the partner countries can't even keep their own orders, should tell us something about fundings for upgrades, or integrations of weapon and techs in future. *That's why they need India and why they are pushing so hard!
> 
> Imo the GE engine deal for Tejas was the kill for EF in MMRCA, because it would have reduced the costs of EF to produce the engine under licence for both fighters and further developments would have been possible too. Now EF still remains the most expensive fighter, with confirmed delays in the development of T3, limited available weapons and no versions for SFC, or IN.



..and the French are selling land and wireless frequencies to finance the latest batch of eleven Rafale's - what's your point?


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## sancho

Vimana1 said:


> The only tender they can win is the Brazil one at the moment unless Sarkozy makes India a deal it can not say no to when he arrives, the rafale does not have a single export order so far.



And still has comparable orders like Saab with its normal Gripen, 60 of them even in the F3+ version that is on offer for MMRCA, while Gripen NG, or Mig 35 has no orders at all! F16 B60 has only the 80 orders from UAE and even the SH has hardly achieved any exports. So this isn't really an argument!
The only difference exports will make to Rafale are reducing the costs, because parts of the R&D, or further upgrades costs will be paid from other customers too. The fact that the French are ordering and upgrading the Rafale continuously, tells us much more about the future of that project.



Death.By.Chocolate said:


> ..and the French are selling land and wireless frequencies to finance the latest batch of eleven Rafale's - what's your point?



The point is that IAF searches for a fighter that will be in service for 30 to 40 years, so must be capable in future too! While the EF partners already struggle to fund upgrade and keep their orders, the French did not reduced a single order so far (just like the didn't in A400, where the UK and Germany made cuts) and are upgrading their fighters and funding new development. They will replace all fighters with Rafale and that gives us the security to get a fighter with a good future in the expected life cylce too, something that only Dassault and Boeing can offer imo!


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## razgriz19

A very darn good documentary on typhoon!!!
it shows its multirole capability!

YouTube - Eurofighter Typhoon - Heir to a century of UK airpower

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## the rafter

The latest article posted on pakobserver.net (most likely is untrue) says that


> *Secret negotiations have been underway for the purchase of 126 F-18 Hornets from Boeing aircraft. The estimated cost is $3.78 billion dollars with spares.*


Sounds like a spicy gossip to re-kindle the MMRCA debate.

Expansion of Indian Air Force


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## MAFIAN GOD

^^^^
126 F-18 Super Hornets at $3.78 Billion with spares.

*ORDER ANOTHER 126 ASAP.*



That news is so untrue.


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## GORKHALI

LAGO RAHO MUNNABHAI heheheh i think he missed so many things like deployment of mig 29 in north east,then hype about C17 then about 3.76 billon dollar deal thats also secret lol and thats also with spares


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## prototype

sancho said:


> The point is that IAF searches for a fighter that will be in service for 30 to 40 years, so must be capable in future too! While the EF partners already struggle to fund upgrade and keep their orders, the French did not reduced a single order so far (just like the didn't in A400, where the UK and Germany made cuts) and are upgrading their fighters and funding new development. They will replace all fighters with Rafale and that gives us the security to get a fighter with a good future in the expected life cylce too, something that only Dassault and Boeing can offer imo!



So what every fighter can serve as for that time period,compared to EFT how many Rafales had been rolled out so far,if funding is the issue,they just get one more member with huge cash flow if we decide on EFT,their r no takers for Rafale untill now,so even we cannot expect a price cut.


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## sancho

alex mercer said:


> So what every fighter can serve as for that time period,compared to EFT how many Rafales had been rolled out so far,if funding is the issue,they just get one more member with huge cash flow if we decide on EFT,their r no takers for Rafale untill now,so even we cannot expect a price cut.



Not only funding, also time till all the new upgrades are cleared of all members (which is difficult enough as we see with T3), time for the developments beeing done, testet and integrated and time till these new techs will mature in operational service. Take the AESA radar as an example!

- in 2008, or 09 the parters agreed to go to T3, but it was not decided what new techs and capabilities will be involved
- in 2010 the consortium companies said they start development of AESA and prefund it, because they can't wait any longer till the partner countries decides to go for it and fund it
- AESA is planed (hoped) to be operational in 2015 and that only if the funding will be cleared and the development goes through without problems
- MMRCA requires first squad build by winning vendor in 2014, but EF will start production only in 2015, which will also delay the licence production in India (as if we don't have enough delays with LCA)

And all this is unclear, unsure, not fixed...*only* in regard to the AESA radar! All the other things that must be cleared in regard to the Tranche 3 are even more unsure, because the partners have no clue what to develop, what to fund and how to pay all the costs.

Personally I can imagine an EF with AESA, CFTs, 3D TVC, with 4 x Meteor on semi stealth weapon pods, with only the SR missiles at the wings, what reduces the RCS even more and adds range. Latest avionics and passive detection features, integrated A2G missiles as well as JDAM, or SDB, as I often said it would be a hell of a fighter. But IAF can't rely on imagination only in such a dangerous neighborhood! We need fighters that are operational and ready whenn we induct, especially if we really consider such high costs like the EF would mean.

That is the same reason why the EF was rejected and not shortlisted in several competitions, because it still offer not enough in return for the high costs. In A2A it is clearly one of the best, or the best, in A2G the exact opposite, as sad it is.


*An older report about EF and T3:*




> *The Half-Full, Half-Empty Eurofighter Glass, Too*
> 
> Tranche 3 will come with none improvements and advanced features.
> Contract covers but aircraft to the Tranche 2 standard...
> 
> ...And now, after much hesitation, bickering and not-so-well concealed attempts at cutting and running if only one could blame the others for this, the Tranche 3 contract (officially half-tranche, 3A) has finally been signed.
> 
> It is pretty obvious that unless WW3 descends upon us, this will in all likelihood be the last order by the four member countries,* and there will be no Tranche 3B contract*. This, however, is only too logical, given the radical evolution of the strategic scenarios, and the drastic reductions in defence spending since the Eurofighter programme was originally launched. If the United States thinks it can do with 183 F-22s, it is quite difficult to maintain that, say, Germany needs the same number of Eurofighters. *If production is to continue beyond the 3A order, it would have to depend completely on export.*
> 
> The really disturbing point, however, is that despite rather oblique attempts (not by industry) to conceal by truth by mentioning phantasmagoric multi-role capabilities, it is painfully evident that the 9 billion contract covers but aircraft to the Tranche 2 standard  i.e., absolutely identical to those currently being delivered.
> 
> None of the improvements and advanced features that were expected to be introduced with the Tranche 3 standard, and which the Eurofighter desperately needs in order to both adapt itself to the evolving operational scenarios and remain competitive on the export market, will actually be implemented.
> 
> There will be no AESA radar, *no conformal fuel tanks, no TVC nozzles, no integration of weapons such as Meteor, Storm Shadow or Taurus  NOTHING.* The aircraft will be fitted with electrical systems and interfaces to allow for the possible future integration of new weapons and electronic systems through retrofit programmes, but this is projected into a vague future.
> 
> One may speculate as to whether this is the tragic result of the Air Forces being absolutely unable to find the money for the aircraft they want, or rather having lost faith in the industrys development and management skill, or possibly a combination of both factors.
> 
> Be this as it may, the unpalatable conclusion is that development of the Eurofighter is effectively terminated at Tranche 2 standard level. The aircrafts development potential toward a true multi-role configuration is being thrown away.



defence.professionals | defpro.com


An that is the reality even today! As long as they don't fix the upgrade and we have no clear idea when all the proposed things really will be available, EF can't be a good choice for us, but time is runing and they know it well. It's not surprising that exactly now so many articles comes up in those partner countries and that the EF consortium is doing as much PR as possible. Although they don't say any new point and mainly sum up older articles.


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## MAFIAN GOD

@sancho
does Rafale has fully operational AESA like F-16 and F-18?


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## sancho

MAFIAN GOD said:


> @sancho
> does Rafale has fully operational AESA like F-16 and F-18?



Ready developed, operational from 2012 onwards, for the 60 x Rafale F3+ for the French forces.


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## dbc

razgriz19 said:


> A very darn good documentary on typhoon!!!
> it shows its multirole capability!
> 
> YouTube - Eurofighter Typhoon - Heir to a century of UK airpower



Recall my comments about delta canards and the CG(Center of Gravity) sensitivity of such designs, notice the aircraft instability caused by release of the center line LGB @2:30 in slow level flight. Observe the main target structure is still intact post impact and detonation, the target survived.
Now imagine the instability that the release of a LGB closer to the wingtip (further from its longitudinal axis) at higher speeds can cause in such designs.


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## the rafter

*Britain to discuss Eurofighter bid for IAF deal*
London: The Eurofighter Typhoon consortium is to offer India the technological blueprint of its jets in a bid to secure a whopping 7.1-billion-pound contract to sell 126 combat aircraft to the Indian Air Force. 

Britain's Defence Secretary Liam Fox will take up the issue with Indian authorities in Delhi in the next couple of days during his visit there. 

According to 'The Sunday Times', Fox's meetings with Defence Minister AK Antony tomorrow and on Tuesday will mark another chapter in the intense lobbying of the Indian government for the 7.1 billion-pound contract. 

Fox's visit, the first of a British defence secretary in six years, has been described as "pivotal" as the debate on the jet deal shifts from a technical to a more political phase. 

The Typhoon received a boost in the race for the biggest defence deal in India's history after it was ranked in the top two of the Indian Air Force's technical trials of all six bidding aircraft, which included America's F-16 and F-18 and Sweden's Gripen, the paper said. 

The report quoted Andrew Gallagher, chief executive of BAE Systems India, as saying that the deal being offered toIndia would bring New Delhi in as a full "fifth partner", including the transfer of full technical sovereignty, access to computer source codes and the objective of making the entire aircraft in Indian factories. 

Fox will be followed over the next couple of months by Russian President Dmitry Medvedev and French leader Nicolas Sarkozy. 

They will be pushing Delhi to opt, respectively, for MiG-35 and Dassault Aviation's Rafale when the decision is made next year, the report said. 

PTI

Link: Fox`s India trip: Eurofighter bid for IAF deal to be discussed


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## the rafter

*UK readies defence pitch*
OUR SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT
*New Delhi, Nov. 20*: The British defence secretary is set to kick off a series of high-profile military exchanges with India beginning next week even as the defence ministry heads towards a &#8220;downselect&#8221; of combat aircraft for a $12-billion order.

Sweden&#8217;s defence minister is expected in December, to prop up Swedish firm SAAB&#8217;s bid with its Gripen fighter aircraft. French President Nicholas Sarkozy and Russian President Dimitry Medvedev are also slated to visit India in the same month.

A downselect from the six aircraft in the fray is likely only around February. The competing aircraft are the F/A-18 Super Hornet and the F-16 Super Viper (Boeing and Lockheed Martin, both of the US), the Russian MiG-35, the Dassault Aviation&#8217;s Rafale (France), Sweden&#8217;s Gripen, and European Consortium EADS&#8217; Eurofighter Typhoon that is being promoted in India by Germany and the UK.

British defence secretary Liam Fox is scheduled to visit Delhi on Monday and Tuesday &#8220;to take forward the broad-based cooperation in the defence sector envisaged by the Prime Ministers of the two countries at their meeting earlier this year&#8221;, a UK high commission statement said today.

He will also visit Cassidian&#8217;s Delhi office to discuss and promote the Eurofighter Typhoon&#8217;s bid. Cassidian is the new name of the defence and security division of EADS.

EADS has been promoting the Typhoon as not only a state-of-the-art aircraft but also suggesting a &#8220;partnership&#8221; that will bolster India&#8217;s diplomatic ties with the UK, Germany, Spain and Italy.

The statement said that together with Indian defence minister A.K. Antony, Fox &#8220;will provide senior political leadership to the bilateral defence relationship. This will ensure that the defence aspects of the new UK-India enhanced partnership play their rightful, central role&#8221;.

Link: The Telegraph - Calcutta (Kolkata) | Nation | UK readies defence pitch


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## Hulk

My gut feeling says that IAF feels US aircraft's maybe F18 is the best but they are waiting for some relaxation from US government on these clauses.


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## luckyyy

alex mercer said:


> So what every fighter can serve as for that time period,compared to EFT how many Rafales had been rolled out so far,if funding is the issue,they just get one more member with huge cash flow if we decide on EFT,*their r no takers for Rafale untill now,*so even we cannot expect a price cut.



talks on lefting arms embargo senctions on china underways........china could be the first customer of Rafale..


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## sancho

> *Shortlisting, Shortly*
> 
> Prospects are increasing that India will sustain four offerings in its $12-billion Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) program but soon eliminate the MiG-35 and F&#8209;16IN from the field.
> 
> The downselect, which industry officials had widely expected would not take place until after Februarys Aero India show in Bangalore, could become official as early as next month, program watchers indicate. The actual announcement of the decision, however, is still not expected until after the air show. Remaining in the battle to build at least 126 fighters would be the Saab Gripen, the only single-engine offering, along with the Eurofighter Typhoon, Dassault Rafale and Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet.
> 
> It has appeared likely for some time that the MiG-35 would be dropped from the running, and in recent days the F-16Is elimination has also begun to seem inevitable. A drawback of the F-16, according to Indian air force officials, is that Pakistan also operates a version of the fighter. The Indian government has consistently expressed its frustration and irritation at Washingtons continued supply of weaponsmost notably more F-16sto Islamabad, weapons India believes only serve to close the conventional military gap between the two countries.
> 
> U.S. industry officials insist, however, that while India publicly expresses misgivings about the U.S.-Pakistani relationship, it is quietly less opposed because it sees Washingtons involvement as a stabilizing force.
> 
> Furthermore, a Lockheed Martin official insists, we have heard nothing that would suggest the Indian government would eliminate either U.S. competitor from the competition because of U.S. engagement with Pakistan. On the contrary, we are very confident, based on the results of the field evaluation trials, that the F-16IN Super Viper is fully compliant with Indias requirements.
> 
> Industry observers note that recent opinion pieces in the Indian press, which suggest that the MMRCA competition be scrapped and replaced with a purchase of 200 Lockheed Martin F-35As, could indicate that the company is already looking beyond the competition. The F-35 is not in play for the air force requirement, although both the F-35C and the F-35B are officially on offer to the Indian navy.
> 
> Speculation in India has put the Eurofighter and Rafale ahead in the bidding, but Indian air force officials dismiss that. Moreover, the Gripen and F/A-18E/F have an edge in terms of price, which may be gaining greater weight in the selection process.
> 
> The Gripen appears to have found indirect support from the government. The director of the Indian governments official air power think tank says the Gripen suits the services requirements best. In a recent column, Air Commo.Jasjit Singh writes: The choice that comes closest to the medium multirole aircraft that the [Indian air force] has been seeking since a decade ago is the [Indian version of the Gripen NG].
> 
> A great deal of political diplomacy to push through a dealas well as furious back-channel lobbyingwill undoubtedly occur in the next few months. Following the visit by U.S. President Barack Obama last week, the heads of state of Russia and France are scheduled to be hosted by New Delhi soon. Indian air force chief Air Chief Marshal PV Naik has indicated that the government will make a type selection by July, although a decision could come closer to the end of 2011.




Shortlisting, Shortly | AVIATION WEEK



*Note:* The analysis of Air Commo.Jasjit Singh was interesting, but his conclusion was wrong, because he mixed up his own points at the end, as discussed here before.

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## MAFIAN GOD

> &#8220;The choice that comes closest to the &#8216;medium&#8217; multirole aircraft that the [Indian air force] has been seeking since a decade ago is the [Indian version of the Gripen NG].&#8221;



Seriously IAF officials think that Gripen-NG is best suited for us?
Oh come on if Gripen is good then F-16 is the better.
Just bcoz Pakistan have them,we shouldn't induct them?
I think Tejas is comparable to Gripen.


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## SpArK



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## sancho

*The closest to Mirage 2000  :*


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## palash_kol

MAFIAN GOD said:


> Seriously IAF officials think that Gripen-NG is best suited for us?
> Oh come on if Gripen is good then F-16 is the better.
> Just bcoz Pakistan have them,we shouldn't induct them?
> I think Tejas is comparable to Gripen.



Nooo my friend....
Tejas MK-II is comparable to Gripen...
Tejas has to go long way to reach Gripen..(Still 5 years)

Trust me...Gripen is the only one man army here....It will perfectly fit the IAF requirement.. Since it has got all the potential.

I know Eurofighter is the best choice but it is very expensive....


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## luckyyy

> Remaining in the battle to build at least 126 fighters would be the Saab Gripen, the only single-engine offering, along with the Eurofighter Typhoon, Dassault Rafale and Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet



if Eurofighter Typhoon, Dassault Rafale and Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and Gripen will be the four finalist then it will be Gripen winning the deal on lowest bidder ........

infect Gripen is good choice if it full filled the IAF requirments....

in next 7-8 years if a JV with french could improve Kaveri , then Gripen would be the best choice....


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## MAFIAN GOD

palash_kol said:


> Nooo my friend....
> Tejas MK-II is comparable to Gripen...
> Tejas has to go long way to reach Gripen..(Still 5 years)
> 
> Trust me...Gripen is the only one man army here....It will perfectly fit the IAF requirement.. Since it has got all the potential.
> 
> I know Eurofighter is the best choice but it is very expensive....



Gripen is no doubt a lowest bid plane.But still it depends on various countries like USA for engine etc.
Also Gripen is better than Tejas mk-1 but we can induct Tejas in large no. right now and when upgrade it to mk-2 then it will be comparable to gripen.So no need to buy $10 Billion MRCA .
This is the same as Pakistan inducting JF-17 in large no. to counter India in numbers.


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## SpArK

Heavy lobbying in for EF in Delhi

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## trident2010

BENNY said:


> Heavy lobbying in for EF in Delhi



I am not bothered about who wincs MRCA but I want that EF model plane  .. looks so awsome


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## syntax_error

Me toooo.............


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## Dash

sancho said:


> *The closest to Mirage 2000  :*


Sancho -

If we take the cost into consideration wlong with diplomacy behind it.

There are below options that come into my mind -
1. F-18 though fits to multirole with a low price, it still will face the axe of mistrust btn US and India, it may not be abt sanctions now, but India not being a signatory of CISMOA, so a stripped down version will be there and mostly the AESA will be affected by this. so less chances for a bargain.

2. EF is lobbying hard for as they know India is their only option to make EF more export friendly as it can reduce the cost iof EF drastically for other countries to opt for it. Some links have also claimed abt teh blue print of the craft and it does look like they will surely go more than extra mile to get this deal. However selection of kaveri has played it down for EF. so if IAF includes EF now, it will have EJ-2000, GE F414, GE 404IN, Rolls royace, RD-33, and S-117 and other different engine types to maintain and repair. and EJ2000 will be the most difficlut as its one of the most advanced and completely new engine to us. But here the factor comes, like I said Navy had an option of AESA but didnt go for it, so it makes me think, a sripped down F-18 has better chance than EF, even if it offers jobs and creates wonder for us.

3. Coming to Rafale, it has only common thing is that IAF uses French avionics, and operates its elder brother Mirage. But they are kind of have the habit to play with prices. Remember it took nearly two years for us to fix the Mirage deal. But IAF will operate them much easier as they have operated Mirage. The French AFAIK havent offered an advanced M-88 like others are pitching for, and mostly if they offer, that will come with a price....So the F-18 comes to pic here, will a stripped F-18 be a better choice than Rafale also. Also keeping it in mind that Snecma and GTRE have still not come to an agreement to jointly develope Kaveri, which hits the fate off Kaveri with Rafale badly, noting that it will also come with a price. Now this cost is seperate from cost of acqquisition of MRCA. There is no sign of India getting into a deal with France for a co-developemnt of M-88-4. Also I will say the Indian PSUs who are pitching hard for defence contracts also will lobby for a contract which wwill give them better and bigger deals. Nevertheless our Babudome will also listen to these PSUs.

4. Now comes Gripen, wwith significantly lower cost, and almost multirole ability, this can be a real game changer. The fear we had of Gripen operating a US enigine, could be managed out by teh recent LCA deal, where Ge has guaranteed TOT, so in case of a sanction we can also maintain and manage the repair ourselves. Now AESA is also not that a big problem for Gripen, now with Metoer, this couldd be a real player, out playing F-18, Rafale and EF, also SAAB is aggressive when it comes TOT and jobs like EF.

What do you think at this moment, I know I like Rafale, but want to keep the personal openion out for the time being as shotlisting will happen soon. Just a check before we hit tha pot.

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## SpArK

BENNY said:


> Heavy lobbying in for EF in Delhi


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## MAFIAN GOD

Is Gripen-NG/IN which is offered to India comparable to F-16 blk-52+ which Pakistan have?
Bcoz F-16IN which is offered by LM to India is superior than Gripen-NG/IN.


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## GORKHALI

MAFIAN GOD said:


> Is Gripen-NG/IN which is offered to India comparable to F-16 blk-52+ which Pakistan have?
> Bcoz F-16IN which is offered by LM to India is superior than Gripen-NG/IN.



YOU GOT TO BE KIDDING ME RIGHT ?YOU MEAN THIS





OR this

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## Dash

MAFIAN GOD said:


> Is Gripen-NG/IN which is offered to India comparable to F-16 blk-52+ which Pakistan have?
> Bcoz F-16IN which is offered by LM to India is superior than Gripen-NG/IN.


Absolutely -

Gripen IN will have AESA, Meteor, and its a new airframe design, it has HMD, and mostly its different from F-16s operated by Pak. Now if India opts for F-16IN then Pak wwill have an upper hand as they already operate it since 80s, but Gripen for them will be a completely new platform.

But it will be good for us to keep Pak out of our conversation. F-16 itself is a proven aircraft but you wouldnt want to operate a craft whose design is 20 years older at least, when you are looking out for a craft which can serve you for 30 years.

This is a very generic openion.


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## MST

MAFIAN GOD said:


> Is Gripen-NG/IN which is offered to India comparable to F-16 blk-52+ which Pakistan have?
> Bcoz F-16IN which is offered by LM to India is superior than Gripen-NG/IN.



To my knowledge F16 IN with a very matured AESA radar is superior to Gripen NG which started testing its AESA radar only last year.


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## MST

kapoor said:


> YOU GOT TO BE KIDDING ME RIGHT ?YOU MEAN THIS
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OR this



If you compare a computer Generated graphic with a real Image its no surprise. CGI can make anything look super deadly


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## GORKHALI

MST said:


> If you compare a computer Generated graphic with a real Image its no surprise. CGI can make anything look super deadly



lalala hope this is not !!!!!





hope you not gonna forget to say THANKZ

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## SpArK

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/__A2VG2LiIPk/TKZIMryq-WI/AAAAAAAAANA/kUR8dUtZw2U/s1600/gripen_babe.jpg

*Sexiest Gripen pic ever*.

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## MST

BENNY said:


> http://2.bp.blogspot.com/__A2VG2LiIPk/TKZIMryq-WI/AAAAAAAAANA/kUR8dUtZw2U/s1600/gripen_babe.jpg
> 
> *Sexiest Gripen pic ever*.



That's a hot pic. Beats every thing else hands down


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## GORKHALI

BENNY said:


> http://2.bp.blogspot.com/__A2VG2LiIPk/TKZIMryq-WI/AAAAAAAAANA/kUR8dUtZw2U/s1600/gripen_babe.jpg
> 
> WHO!!!??????????????????IF SHE ALSO IN OFFER WITH GRIPEN NG MATE


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## sancho

Dash said:


> Sancho -
> 
> If we take the cost into consideration wlong with diplomacy behind it...
> 
> ...What do you think at this moment, I know I like Rafale, but want to keep the personal openion out for the time being as shotlisting will happen soon. Just a check before we hit tha pot.



Hi Dash, there are many things in your post that doesn't really fit, but it would take too long to answer them 1 on 1, if i get you right your main issue here is costs right?

But if you compare the costs, you can't just compare the basic price only, but have to consider what is offered for the price too!

As I showed in the comparison with the SH, the Rafale offered in MMRCA has a higher tech level than the F18SH Block 2 and which can be equalised only with the Block 3 upgrade, so with additional costs. Not to mention that the SH needs more costs for new weapons and logistics that are not available in IAF now. So the F18SH for IAF can turn out costlier and with with less difference to Rafale than the pure fly away cost difference tells us.
Gripen of course is most likely the cost-effective solution, but the problem is, that it is still a paperplane! The Gripen NG, is just a tech demonstrator and not a real prototype of the Gripen E/F and besides several changes at the performance specs, the costs can be different later too. That's why it was marked as high risk in Brazil, because at the moment it is difficult to calculate it's real costs. Saab says that it costs $4000 per hour (later corrected to $5000) to operate Gripen E/F, but the Brazilian air force calculations says $8000. Of course it is still the cheapest, but much closer to the twin engine fighters than advertised by Saab and for India they are advertising with $3000 per hour only! 
EF is undeniably the most expensive fighter in the competition, but I always said don't look at costs only, look at what we get in return for it! The partnership offer, is obviously one of the most interesting one and their offset offer will be good for sure too. But imo, EF doesn't fulfill our technical needs as a fighter, be it for IAF, SFC, or IN. That's why it offers not enough in return for all the money we have to spend, because we have to add costs for integration of new weapons an capabilities too, not to mention that we still need 2 different fighters for SFC and IN. The costs would have been better if we had opted for EJ 200 for Tejas too, but we didn't and that's imo a clear sign against the EF too. 

With the infos available (for us), I still say Rafale is the best choice for us, because it offers the most in return for the costs!


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## Dash

> Hi Dash, there are many things in your post that doesn't really fit, but it would take too long to answer them 1 on 1, if i get you right your main issue here is costs right?



Yes, what you are pointing out here is cost v/s availablity, present v/s future costs. 

Now, My point is if we ever have to consider cost V/s tech i think cost will play a major role in deciding who is going to be the winner. tech is not everything and thats what EJ-2000 rejection tells us (also knowing they forged the deal), but tech wasnt considered at all.

Now if we look at the cost of life cycle, compared against, cost for upgrades, maintainance, and mostly the life of the plane, then cost runs parallaly with everything. Now my point is the acquisition price is capped at $10-12 billion . Obviously thats the price for flay away and TOT, plus maintainace and support for 5-6 years. Im sure the price of each plane will get down drastically when they are made in India with TOT as oppesed to being made in respective countries. so to say whatever the price offered to other countries will not be applicable to us. The best reference we can take is of Brazil coz they are also dealing on the similar lines. So whatever price they are offered the same or even lower saying this is a much bigger deal and Indian production prices will be on offer to us. So if $78 million for a Rafale for Brazil may become $ 72-73 for India.



> As I showed in the comparison with the SH, the Rafale offered in MMRCA has a higher tech level than the F18SH Block 2 and which can be equalised only with the Block 3 upgrade, so with additional costs. Not to mention that the SH needs more costs for new weapons and logistics that are not available in IAF now. So the F18SH for IAF can turn out costlier and with with less difference to Rafale than the pure fly away cost difference tells us.



My question is F-18 SH can be decided without the EPE engine, but its a wait to see if we are getting that engine for LCA, if not the same engine with the current AESA can be opted. As this will reduce the logistical challenge for IAF. _cosz they will maintain 200 LCAs and 126 F-18 with ease_. and the same comes to Gripen too...So that saves cost here. and GE no where mentioned about additional pricing for EPE or EDE for LCA engine bid and deal price was still lower. Americans can save a you a of money when it comes to their fighters.



> EF is undeniably the most expensive fighter in the competition, but I always said don't look at costs only, look at what we get in return for it! The partnership offer, is obviously one of the most interesting one and their offset offer will be good for sure too. But imo, EF doesn't fulfill our technical needs as a fighter, be it for IAF, SFC, or IN. That's why it offers not enough in return for all the money we have to spend, because we have to add costs for integration of new weapons an capabilities too, not to mention that we still need 2 different fighters for SFC and IN. The costs would have been better if we had opted for EJ 200 for Tejas too, but we didn't and that's imo a clear sign against the EF too.



EF doesnt have a chance and we both know that so not talking abt EF.

What I am trying to understand here is How Rafale will fare considering its still an expensive plane when we come down to the same analysis.

cost of life cycle, compared against, cost for upgrades, maintainance, and mostly the life of the plane, then cost runs parallaly with everything.
and cost v/s availablity, present v/s future costs. Though it is difficult to predict that now, but this will help us get close to know who can be the closest when it comes to MRCA winner.


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## sancho

Dash said:


> Yes, what you are pointing out here is cost v/s availablity, present v/s future costs.
> 
> Now, My point is if we ever have to consider cost V/s tech i think cost will play a major role in deciding who is going to be the winner.



Not neccesarily, because you will compare the fighters on tech requirements first and only those who will fulfill them will be compared on price too. As I said, if there is such a T/W requirement as some reports said, the SH does not fulfill it and therefore the cost-effectiveness doesn't matter anymore.




Dash said:


> So whatever price they are offered the same or even lower saying this is a much bigger deal and Indian production prices will be on offer to us. So if $78 million for a Rafale for Brazil may become $ 72-73 for India.



Yes, that's why I also keep trying to get infos from there, but not only the licence production will make a difference, the number of fighters will be a big difference too. It will be interesting to see how much Brazil will pay at the end and then we might be able to translate it for a possible deal in India too.




Dash said:


> As this will reduce the logistical challenge for IAF. _cosz they will maintain 200 LCAs and 126 F-18 with ease_. and the same comes to Gripen too...So that saves cost here.



By the same logic, Rafale is a good option for another 80 fighters for SFC and IN too, moreover, if we can integrate Kaveri - Snema engine, it will have common engines with AMCA too! So126 + 40 + 40 + around 250 AMCA that are planed, which means over 900 indigenous engines, not to mention that there is an option for 74 more MMRCAs! Again what is more cost-effective for us? Investing in an licence produced foreign engine, or investing in an indigenous engine? We have to pay for the Kaveri developments anyway and it would be nuts to not use the engine on Rafale, but wait till 2022 for AMCA serial production to start.




Dash said:


> and GE no where mentioned about additional pricing for EPE or EDE for LCA engine bid and deal price was still lower.



The EPE is not funded, GE is searching for an export customer to start the development for it, which means additional costs. So far there is not a single proof that LCA get more thrust than the normal GE 414, I searched for a reliable source about it too, but we have to wait till the contract is signed by next year I guess to get the details. Lower than what?




Dash said:


> What I am trying to understand here is How Rafale will fare considering its still an expensive plane when we come down to the same analysis.
> 
> cost of life cycle, compared against, cost for upgrades, maintainance, and mostly the life of the plane, then cost runs parallaly with everything.
> and cost v/s availablity, present v/s future costs. Though it is difficult to predict that now, but this will help us get close to know who can be the closest when it comes to MRCA winner.



As I said, Rafale is more costly but offers more in return, the F18SH needs more changes to make it equal, especially when we consider the service life of 30 - 40 years, where a modern designed fighter like the Rafale simply offer more future potential. 
However, I don't think that this will help us at all, because all we can do is take a guess on the requirements and speculate. For me the shortlistings will be interesting and might give a guess on what the deal really is about.

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## sancho

...and talking of Brazil, Boeing is making a desperate attempt to win the competition by offering production of F18SH parts for all SH in Brazil, as well as to team up with Embraer on KC 390:



> SAO PAULO  Boeing is offering to partner with Brazil's Embraer on a new fighter jet, in an effort to strengthen its bid for a multi-billion-dollar Brazilian defense contract, the US manufacturer said in a report Monday.
> Joseph McAndrew, Boeing's vice president for Europe, Israel and America, told business publication Valor that the firm proposed 10 partnership projects with Brazil's aviation leader, including building a new plant in the country to build parts for Boeing's F/A-18 Super Hornet.
> [...]
> Valor reported that Boeing offered Embraer *assembly of the F/A-18*, as well as *manufacture of the nose, wings and tail*.
> "*Never before has Boeing offered such a broad, clear package of technology transfer* dedicated to Brazil," McAndrew told the journal.
> "All elements of the US government that could veto such a transfer signed a pledge saying they will not veto it. Both Congress and the Defense Department," he said.



Rafale News


Very interesting news, because on the one side in confirms what I said before, that the US might offer only ToT of non critical parts, like these airframe parts and the "assembly" of critical abroad only.
On the other side, that exactly these parts were rumored for India, so if Brazil suddenly turns to the US, what would be left for us?
However, I think the partnership offer at KC 390 is way more interesting for them, because it opens a chance on the US market. Sooner or later the US forces have to replace older C130 aircrafts and the KC 390 would be a good alternative. Saab and Dassault had offered partnerships too and France would even buy 12 of them, but the US might order way bigger numbers.


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## dbc

sancho said:


> ...and talking of Brazil, Boeing is making a desperate attempt to win the competition by offering production of F18SH parts for all SH in Brazil, as well as to team up with Embraer on KC 390:



I wouldn't say Boeing is desperate, 36 orders hardly makes a dent in Boeing revenues.

Speaking of Brazil, according to *rumors *emanating from Brazil, 
it is alleged that two Rafale's were killed by old Brazillian F-5M's. Also interesting that the Brazilian's complained the Rafale lacked power. A bit embarrassing for the French if this is true, I wonder if this impacts the Rafale's chances in Brazil, perhaps not considering Rafale is strongly supported by Jobin and Lula.

Again, these are internet rumors but the engine lacking power is consistent with what was reported by the Emirati's.

Google translated


> Well I have heard rumors, RUMORS repeat, the only 100&#37; proven is that the only participant who performed all scheduled departures were the F-16 BL 50 Chileans.
> 
> Again, the BL 50 BRV always fought with silence radar and using the AIDWS (EW) were able to complete missions without activating their radars, in fact on one occasion, an aircraft carried out a ground attack without being detected.
> *
> The villains of the film F-5BR achieved several successful battles, especially that brought down 2 Rafale*, one of these using Python IV, a type of weapon without the French.
> 
> *The Rafale's performance was far below expectations, especially mounted and acceleration in a tropical environment, the maneuverings of Mirage 2000 and F-16 were considered superior, I leave the FAB worried and FX-2 program
> *
> It is the first time that U.S. F-16 used in maneuvers in the continent with the AIM-9X achieving good results.
> 
> The Gringos were more than satisfied with the use of KC-135 in Chile, who acted together with him and supplied the F-16 of both air forces.
> 
> In conclusion it comes to the FACH used in missions Derby BRV and no AMRAAM and achieved great success rate.
> 
> There are other things, but when you have confirmation of at least 2 additional sources, the purblicare.



Cruzex v - P&#225;gina 27 - Aviaci&#243;nArgentina.net





The Rafale apparently has trouble with legacy fighters the above German Phantom accounted for five Rafale's during Frisian Flag 2008.

Rafale Eater ....cute


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## Gabbar

UK shows support to Eurofighter Typhoon for Indian Air Force MMRCA contract​

Bernhard Gerwert, CEO of Cassidian Air Systems, said &#8221; We are grateful for the visit of the UK Secretary of State for Defence in our Delhi Office and his encouraging messages to further intensify our campaign activities. Our Governments in the United Kingdom, Germany, Spain and Italy are strongly supporting the Eurofighter Typhoon campaign in India. Europe&#8217;s leading aerospace and defence companies are ready to enhance their industrial cooperation with India&#8217;s advanced defence industry for the benefit of all parties. *Our goal is to integrate India into the global supply chain of the Eurofighter Typhoon by developing a strong and diverse supplier base in India which will also cater to this global programme.&#8221; *
*The consortium members will also provide India access to key technologies in a unique industrial partnership designed to further catalyze India&#8217;s indigenous defence sector.*
During a recent meeting of the Eurofighter Supervisory Board in New Delhi, senior representatives of EADS (Germany and Spain), BAE Systems (United Kingdom) and Finmeccanica (Italy) highlighted their combined commitment to develop a long-term strategic relationship with India and establish a new bnchmark for Europe&#8217;s defence and industrial cooperation with Indian defence and aerospace companies.

More at *****************

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## sancho

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> I wouldn't say Boeing is desperate, 36 orders hardly makes a dent in Boeing revenues.



Desperate, because it was obvious that the deal is going to Rafale, or Gripen and the SH has no real chance there and even 36 SH would make Brazil to the biggest export customer, not to mention that the deal could go up to 100. 




Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Speaking of Brazil, according to *rumors *emanating from Brazil...
> ...Again, these are internet rumors but the engine lacking power is consistent with what was reported by the Emirati's.



Please:



> a forum "friend" provides


 Very reliable 

And once again, there is no issue with the thrust, especially not in A2A combats what ATLC proved! UAE wants more thrust because they want to use higher loads, that's also why the F18SH Block 2 can never be an opponent for Rafale in UAE, because it lacks way behind Rafale in this field. That's nothing but PR to put pressure on the French and according to the latest reports about that deal, the issue is not even the fighter at all, but the clearance for UAE airlines to get more flights to France, what would be a problem for Air France.




Death.By.Chocolate said:


> The Rafale apparently has trouble with legacy fighters the above German Phantom accounted for five Rafale's during Frisian Flag 2008.
> 
> Rafale Eater ....cute



The funny thing about the picture is, that it actually shows a EF, not a Rafale (canards besides the nose, not the air intakes!).


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## dbc

sancho said:


> The funny thing about the picture is, that it actually shows a EF, not a Rafale (canards besides the nose, not the air intakes!).



..his old Phantom took out five Rafale's, I'm willing to pardon his drawing skills  *"Rafale eater"*...don't ya just love it 

What do you make of the interview in Brazil in which Brigadier General Dominique de Longvilliers said Rafale's AESA radar would not be in service until 2017  and Meteor in 2018? Oh!I didn't realize the Meteor was co-developed by the US  so much for sanction proof Rafale  



> AIR POWER: We have not seen here in the Damocles CRUZEX the Rafale. It is fully integrated into the Rafale? We come from many sources that he was not yet ready to operate, is this true?
> 
> Brigadier General Dominique de Longvilliers - Deixe-me dizer.
> Let me tell you. The French Navy has Damocles, because they bought it and there it is fully integrated. The French Air Force should buy the pods at the beginning of next year, but we need when we get the pods of the Navy and put in our aircraft...
> 
> 
> AIR POWER: When placed into service the new AESA radar for the Rafale?
> 
> *Brigadier General Dominique de Longvilliers -
> On paper it is scheduled for 2017.
> *
> 
> AIR POWER: And the Meteor?
> 
> *Brigadier General Dominique de Longvilliers
> - The Meteor missile is an international, done jointly with the U.S., with the Eurofighter and the community with Sweden. He has done testing of fire and due to enter service around 2018, almost together with the new AESA radar..*


*
*CRUZEX V: Entrevista com o Brigadier General Dominique de Longvilliers | Poder A&#233;reo - Informa&#231;&#227;o e Discuss&#227;o sobre Avia&#231;&#227;o Militar e Civil


----------



## sancho

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> What do you make of the interview in Brazil in which Brigadier General Dominique de Longvilliers said Rafale's AESA radar would not be in service until 2017  and Meteor in 2018? Oh!I didn't realize the Meteor was co-developed by the US  so much for sanction proof Rafale



Not much, by the fact that the site is known for beeing highly Saab/Gripen biased (look at the advertisement besides his picture for example) and not beeing reliable. The part of METEOR and US involvement proves that only:



> METEOR is being developed to meet the requirements *of six European nations* for a superior Beyond Visual Range missile system with the operational capability to excel in all current and future combat scenarios.
> It is being integrated on Europes major platforms, Eurofighter Typhoon, Gripen and Rafale. It also has the potential to add to the air-to-air capability of other combat platforms including the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter.
> *The METEOR programme sees the UK, France, Germany, Italy, Spain and Sweden joining together in order to provide access to technology and expertise across Europe.*



Meteor missiles, missiles, air defence system developped by MBDA


So the development is precisely to have an alternative to US made BVR missiles and not a joint development for a BVR missile.


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## luckyyy

sancho said:


> Not much, by the fact that the site is known for beeing highly Saab/Gripen biased (look at the advertisement besides his picture for example) and not beeing reliable. The part of METEOR and US involvement proves that only:
> 
> 
> 
> Meteor missiles, missiles, air defence system developped by MBDA
> 
> 
> So the development is precisely to have an alternative to US made BVR missiles and not a joint development for a BVR missile.



Astra A2A missile is good enough......

i don't think india will ever going to buy Meteor.....


----------



## Young Wolf

luckyyy said:


> Astra A2A missile is good enough......
> 
> i don't think india will ever going to buy Meteor.....



Astra - good enough??? dude that missile has not even been fully tested. we cant say how good or bad it is before that. 
even if it meets all objectives the range of astra(80km) is pretty low. it is said astra mk2 will have range of 130km and maybe that will be comparable to missiles like meteor or aim120d. but that is a long way down the line and in the mean time we need reliable bvr missiles.
also if we buy rafale or ef or even grippen we are going to get meteor as part of its weapons package. so chances are pretty high that meteor is going to end up in indian hands


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## Agnostic_Indian

To all military pro's here 
to my best knowledge cismoa equipments means america can access the communication through the equipments with the help of their satalites. America will come to know each target, mission etc right ?
and how good or how possible is american jet without cismoa equipments ?


----------



## dbc

sancho said:


> Not much, by the fact that the site is known for beeing highly Saab/Gripen biased (look at the advertisement besides his picture for example) and not beeing reliable. The part of METEOR and US involvement proves that only:
> 
> 
> 
> Meteor missiles, missiles, air defence system developped by MBDA
> 
> 
> So the development is precisely to have an alternative to US made BVR missiles and not a joint development for a BVR missile.



Just because the site shows paid advertising does not in anyway make it pro Gripen just like the paid advertisements that appear on PDF does not mean PDF endorses the products being advertised.

*
Brigadier General Dominique de Longvilliers was right Boeing is part of the Meteor team.*



> Boeing Member of Winning United Kingdom Missile Team
> Meteor Beyond-Visual Range Air-to-Air Missile
> 
> Return to News Release
> 
> ST. LOUIS, May 16, 2000 -- The United Kingdom Ministry of Defense has announced that it will equip its Royal Air Force Eurofighters with the Meteor beyond-visual range air-to-air missile. Boeing is the U.S. member of the international Meteor team, which is led by the Anglo-French joint venture, Matra BAe Dynamics. Meteor is a ramjet-powered missile with advanced seeker technology that can fly at sustained high speeds, over long ranges and with great agility to defeat air-to-air threats.


Boeing: Boeing Member of Winning United Kingdom Missile Team


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## luckyyy

Young Wolf said:


> Astra - good enough??? dude that missile has not even been fully tested. we cant say how good or bad it is before that.
> even if it meets all objectives the range of astra(80km) is pretty low. it is said astra mk2 will have range of 130km and maybe that will be comparable to missiles like meteor or aim120d. but that is a long way down the line and in the mean time we need reliable bvr missiles.
> also if we buy rafale or ef or even grippen we are going to get meteor as part of its weapons package. so chances are pretty high that meteor is going to end up in indian hands



do you think they will be going for astra mk2 without fully testing astra(80km)...


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## sancho

luckyyy said:


> Astra A2A missile is good enough......
> 
> i don't think india will ever going to buy Meteor.....



As an low cost addition yes, but we still will use Russian and European/US missiles too, that's for sure.



Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Just because the site shows paid advertising does not in anyway make it pro Gripen just like the paid advertisements that appear on PDF does not mean PDF endorses the products being advertised.



As I said, the site is known to be Saab biased and not really reliable, btw they posted a correction now:



> Sir,
> I gave you an interview the 15th of november at Natal during the Cruzex V exercice.
> 
> I have made a lapse regarding one date and I would be very pleased if you could correct it in the interview. Concerning the radar AESA, starting from the end of 2013, all Rafale deliveries will be with the AESA Radar. 2017 is a wrong date.
> 
> Thank you for your comprehension.
> 
> GBA Dominique De Longvilliers



http://www.aereo.jor.br/2010/11/25/...-brigadier-general-dominique-de-longvilliers/




Death.By.Chocolate said:


> *
> Brigadier General Dominique de Longvilliers was right Boeing is part of the Meteor team.*



Maybe there was a plan for it in that time, but as the official MBDA site shows they aren't now and it is an European project.

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## Spitfighter

The first post in this thread is dated '05. I sincerely hope they make a decision sometime this decade so we can start producing the fighters by 2030. 

Seriously, WTF! I can't believe this has dragged on for so long.


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## Dash

Spitfighter said:


> The first post in this thread is dated '05. I sincerely hope they make a decision sometime this decade so we can start producing the fighters by 2030.
> 
> Seriously, WTF! I can't believe this has dragged on for so long.


....Choti choti desho main kabhi kabhi baadi baten hoti hein....


----------



## dbc

sancho said:


> As I said, the site is known to be Saab biased and not really reliable, btw they posted a correction now:
> 
> 
> 
> Errata: Entrevista com o Brigadier General Dominique de Longvilliers | Poder Aéreo - Informação e Discussão sobre Aviação Militar e Civil
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe there was a plan for it in that time, but as the official MBDA site shows they aren't now and it is an European project.



Interesting - why did he say 2017? Freudian slip? Did he inadvertently reveal something he shouldn't have? Ah! well time will tell, did an AESA equipped Rafale show up for the MMRCA evaluation?

Boeing and MBDA are working together on JDAM,Diamond Black and SDB. The MBDA site does not mention any of these projects either, doesn't mean anything.


----------



## the rafter

*Boeing Wants to Sell F/A 18 Super Hornet Fighter to Indian Navy*

Boeing India has offered a naval variant of the F/A 18 E/F Super Hornets multi role fighter jet platform to the Indian Navy. The Navy currently has one aircraft carrier (INS Viraat) in service and Russia is expected to deliver INS Vikramaditya by 2012.

India is developing indigenous aircraft carriers and the aim is to have a total of three Aircraft carriers resulting in two fully operational Carrier battle groups and an additional Aircraft carrier eventually in refit making India an operating Blue-water navy.

We have responded to the RFP with our F/A-18 Super Hornet platform. We made a presentation to Navy earlier this year.
 Dr. Vivek Lall

The Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet is a twin-engine 4.5 generation carrier-based multi-role fighter aircraft. The F/A-18E single-seat variant and F/A-18F tandem-seat variant are larger and more advanced derivatives of the F/A-18C and D Hornet. The Super Hornet has an internal 20 mm gun and can carry air-to-air missiles and air-to-surface weapons.

Additional fuel can be carried with up to five external fuel tanks and the aircraft can be configured as an airborne tanker by adding a buddy air refuelling system.

The F/A 18&#8242;s are being operated by the United States Navy  the Super Hornet achieved initial operating capability (IOC) in September 2001 with the U.S. Navys VFA-115 squadron at Naval Air Station Lemoore, California.

Boeing Wants to Sell F/A 18 Super Hornet Fighter to Indian Navy at NEWSPost India


----------



## sancho

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Interesting - why did he say 2017? Freudian slip? Did he inadvertently reveal something he shouldn't have? Ah! well time will tell, *did an AESA equipped Rafale show up for the MMRCA evaluation?*
> 
> Boeing and MBDA are working together on JDAM,Diamond Black and SDB. The MBDA site does not mention any of these projects either, doesn't mean anything.



Yes, it did and so far there was no report about issues of range, or modes, be it in Swiss, or Brazil. Only UAE wants more (as always), but I guess they compared it with their APG 80 and that should be more mature and better.


----------



## dbc

sancho said:


> Yes, it did and so far there was no report about issues of range, or modes, be it in Swiss, or Brazil. Only UAE wants more (as always), but I guess they compared it with their APG 80 and that should be more mature and better.



Radar range will continue to be an issue, there just isn't enough room in the Rafale's nose for a wider antenna. Removing OSF and IRST will allow a small increase in antenna diameter by pushing the radar further back even so, the number of T/R modules that can be accommodated is no where near competing designs such as Mig-35, F/A-18 E/F or Typhoon.
It also explains why the refueling probe can't be retracted there is no room for it.


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## dbc

No HMD, radar isn't good enough, no towed decoy and reports of potential customers not satisfied with engine performance.
And all this is straight from the horse's mouth, the horse being General Alain Silvy. I suspect many Indian's support the Rafale because it is pretty . Do you like pretty things too Sancho..



> Awaiting the UAE
> DSI special edition , August 2010
> 
> 
> With the *General Alain SILVY*
> Deputy Chief Plans within the Staff of the Air Force.
> 
> The french government took the pledge with the Rafale manufacturer to ensure, whatever happens, a minimum annual rate of 11 aircrafts. A rate estimated by the manufacturer as the floor below which it would not be possible to go without calling into question the economy of the program, including the unit cost of these aircrafts. The LPM (Law of Military Planning) not providing matching funds for the purchase of these machines for the years 2013 and 2014, either export allow very opportunely to keep the commitment to the industry, or export is lacking and the french state must find the necessary budgets by reducing or eliminating other programs. Is this commitment based on obtaining export orders a dangerous bet?
> 
> Alain Silvy: Let's be honest. This "bet", to use your word, on short-term obtaining of export orders for the Rafale, has nevertheless allowed to complete the LPM allowing the planning of a big hole in the shipment for the Air Force and the Navy without questioning the production rate, already reduced to the minimum industrially acceptable by Dassault Aviation. Deliveries to the French armies should be reduced to only 2 or 3 machines per year for a time, the export bringing the complement to reach the threshold of 11 Rafale produced per year. In case of absence of export order, the situation would become obviously complicated.[] We would have to find a substantial funding of several hundred million euros. []
> 
> But how to find the hundreds of millions euros in question?
> 
> The 3 armies have all benefited from the choice made by the planners of the LPM to reduce to a very low level the Rafale deliveries. The amount saved have been reallocated to the 3 armies. I think nobody questions it. We should have to find the funds by making new balancing within the LPM [] we must now hope that will come very quickly a first export order. [] But export is not neutral. Potential customers, including UAE, have specific requirements with developments leaving the French standards - and therefore with budget not taken into account by the LPM - they want cofinanced by the French state. That could require for France to find further funding for the Rafale program []
> 
> What would be the cost for France of these additional co-development to fund with a potential UAE customer?
> 
> One hears everything and its opposite. Everything depends on what one includes. Personally, I do not give precise figures. But this is obviously something like several hundreds of millions of euros paid by the french state.
> 
> Is the Air force interested by some of the UAE requirements ?
> 
> From my point of view, it depends where. We could be potentially interested by the M88-X with 9 tons of thrust because it would be, in the circumstances, an open field. But, on the other hand, we have not yet reached the stage of maturity - which requires about 150,000 flight hours  with the current M88 with 7.5 tonnes thrust. This means that with the M88-X, even if it should presumptively enjoy a good community with the existing M88, we would have to accumulate even more hours to reach the stage of maturity of the engine.
> Very clearly, in my opinion, the M88-X is not for the Air force an immediate need. In order to sell the Rafale to the UAE, the Defense may ultimately be asked to acquire the M88-X in a quantity and on terms still to define. And we'll maybe even happy to use it. But today we have no technical or operational reasons to make it available for us.The gain expected from the arrival of a more powerful engine is lower than the risks we would go with the technical immaturity of new modules and the management in parallel - so complicated in terms of logistics and operational employment of aircraft with different performances of two relatively different parks of M88. All this must be thorough.
> 
> Would it be possible to see Safran manufacturing M88-X for UAE and continue to deliver classic M88 for the french Rafale? And this notwithstanding that the french government would have co-funded the development of the M88-X
> 
> It is not forbidden to imagine it. On condition, however, that to maintain the parallel production of two versions of M88 does not cost more than producing a single model. The support costs must not explode. Safran must tell us very quickly and very frankly what it would be. And again, nothing force us to equip the whole fleet of Rafale, Air and/or Marine.
> 
> And about the UAE demand to have a more powerful RBE2 radar, could it answer to some expectations for the Air force?
> 
> The Air Force is interested in having a RBE2 with an active antenna. It is now established with the powerful AESA antenna which will equip our tranche 4 Rafale. What the Emirians are calling for is much more complex. They want, in addition to the AESA, to have new functionalities on their Rafale, such as GMTT / GMTI (detection and tracking of moving ground target), interlacing between air/air and air/ground modes, etc.. Even if this is not for us an urgent need, the operational 'plus' obtained could nonetheless eventually interest us. However, the key Emirian demand is about the range of the RBE2. And, with the same antenna diameter, the only way to achieve the 10% range increase (compared with the Basic AESA F3 "roadmap") that wish to obtain the Emirians, is a big boost to the power of the radar.
> 
> But more power to the RBE2, could it be a risk to generate serious electromagnetic interference (EMI) with the SPECTRA receptors ?
> 
> There is indeed a very real EMI risk to treat. This is the case whenever we want to change aircraft emission systems. There are solutions, obviously, but this will require to reexamine SPECTRA. But the biggest problem we have identified is about electric generation, which could be insufficient. To increase the maximum range of a few nautical miles, we would have to deeply review the electrical generation system of the aircraft.
> In short, to conceive what it could be a Rafale-9, that is to say a new aircraft moving away from the similarity you want with french Rafale. The Emirati experts participating in negotiations are well aware of the problem. But they are also used to have very high quality weapons systems. *They want to avoid any regression with the Rafale, at least on the radar range, compared to the F-16 Block 60, the Rafale having also many other qualities.* The Emirians dont have AWACS and therefore want - it is a fundamental requirement - that the Rafale can see very far. Beyond the radar, they are showing fairly strong requirements into SPECTRA development with, for example, the expansion of some frequency bands, an increased sensitivity, adding functionalities; in short, they want we push up the current technologies. Of course, to improve the electronic warfare of our Rafale faster than originally planned could be an additional operational advantage for the Air force. However, our current approach is to consolidate the features implemented in SPECTRA, to make them more robust and make it easier for operators and programmers before wanting to go further into addition of new capabilities. The current SPECTRA is working well and even very good. In sum, what separates us, about Spectra, is a matter of timing and calendar []. In a more general way, we share the same wishes about capabilities, but with very different maturities calendar sometimes. Budgetary constraints remain a dimensioning factor.
> 
> The Emirians want a viewfinder-HMD ...
> 
> It's true. And ourselves, one way or another, we will. For various reasons, we agreed in the past to not use it initially, but this equipment is now an almost indispensable element for modern combat aircraft. Besides various prospects of the Rafale - the UAE, Brazil and Switzerland  also want it, confirming this analysis.
> 
> In the end, what about the eventuality of a Rafale order by the UAE?
> 
> Very sincerely, and seen from my place, I think we're really not very far from being able to reach a common ground with our UAE friends. The only pertinent question to be asked is whether the will of similarity expressed by the Emirians will prevail over their performance requirement If performance is what counts, in fact well get two quite different Rafale - as with the Mirage 2000-9 - because the french state can not or do not want to follow it. If the community is paramount, the Emirians will have to reduce their ambitions with regard to performance. The choice is now in their hands. They must see if their operational necessities allow them or not to settle for a weapon system fairly close to the F3 "roadmap" French standard. They must decide whether they consider more important to work very closely with us. I know they have already expressed the wish, in case of order, to be able to send their pilots very quickly in our Rafale units where they could train, learn the Rafale and our tactical employment. To obtain a rapid operational rise of their own Rafale squadron. in that case their Rafale configuration and ours must not be very different. But it remains to be seen ... That is where we are I think
> .
> How long would require the additional developments required by the UAE?
> 
> It is difficult to answer precisely this question, especially since I do not have all the elements of the problematic. The first UAE aircraft would not be delivered before 2014. This period should be sufficient to finish to develop a 9 tons M-88. About the radar, we would not probably have in 2014 all the capabilities and performance expected, but they would, I think, nevertheless be already very close to the target. The problem of electric generation requires also time to be processed. This will be a heavy operation for the aircraft. In the case of an order signed this year, we would therefore have some years to develop the additional features. These years should not be wasted. In any case, I think the discussions with Emirians take place on a sound footing. Their negotiators are experts who know exactly what is fighter plane and are aware of the state of the art and of various constraints. Talking to people at this level is very pleasant for the Air Force. However, now the order must materialize.
> 
> What about the UAE Mirage 2000-9 ?
> 
> The French authorities have been very clear on this subject. Once the Rafale ordered by UAE, the Mirage 2000-9 will be taken back by France which will issue them to a defeasance agency in charge of their resale export. This means that in this hypothesis, it is not envisaged that they equip the French Army.
> 
> But would it be interesting for the Army because these are recent cells with advanced weapons systems ?
> 
> We can not say that we feel no interest in these machines, because their weapons system displays really astonishing performance. The Air Force could certainly benefit. However, the indispensable work for NATO compatibility on these weapons systems would be very heavy with a cost probably exceeding the one - 700 millions euros - planned for the renovation of our Mirage 2000D, which is a priority for us.
> 
> If the UAE buy the Rafale, could the Rafale Transformation Squadron (ETR), which will be created in Saint-Dizier, be relocated at Al-Dhafra to help UAE pilots and benefit from the excellent local weather conditions ?
> 
> Why not? but we are not there yet. [] To install the ETR  as a whole or just a part - at Al-Dhafra could be an asset. Our first participation, last autumn, to the ATLC (Advanced Tactical Leadership Course) organized by the UAE Air Warfare Center, has once again demonstrated the richness of such exchanges. If the UAE order the Rafale, we may have to quickly take charge, in a way or another, of the transformation of their pilots on our weapon system. Doing it at Al-Dhafra would be - and this is only my opinion - interesting.


Rafale News


----------



## baker

PM heading to Berlin, Germany to pitch for Eurofighter



> NEW DELHI: Germany is set to sharpen its pitch for selling Eurofighter Typhoon combat jets to India when Prime Minister Manmohan Singh goes to Berlin next month, a day-long trip that will focus on expanding the strategic relationship between the two would-be non-permanent members of the UN Security Council.
> 
> Manmohan Singh is expected to fly to Berlin Dec 11 for a day-long visit after attending India's summit with the 27-nation European Union (EU) in Brussels.
> 
> This will be the second visit by Manmohan Singh to Berlin since he became the country's prime minister over six years ago.
> 
> Manmohan Singh and Merkel met recently at the G20 summit of major and emerging economies in Seoul. A bilateral visit by Manmohan Singh to Germany has been in the making for some time, but it was only last week it was decided to include a day-long visit to Berlin to the prime minister's itinerary that was earlier confined to a stand-alone visit to Brussels for the India-EU summit.
> 
> Manmohan Singh and Merkel, who enjoy a special chemistry, are expected to focus on expanding defence relationship and enlarging the scope of their strategic dialogue on key global issues like UN reforms, the international financial crisis, counter-terrorism, non-proliferation and climate change.
> 
> The UN reforms will be a key item on agenda, a senior official, who did not wish to be names, told IANS.
> 
> Significantly, the meeting between Manmohan Singh and Merkel will take place barely weeks before India and Germany join the UN Security Council as non-permanent members Jan 1, 2011. "This explains the focus on a dialogue over big-picture global issues," said the official.
> 
> Both countries are in favour of unity among G-4 countries (India, Brazil, Japan and Germany) to realise their collective quest for permanent seats on an expanded United Nations Security Council (UNSC), a point that was made forcefully by German ambassador to India Thomas Matussek recently.
> 
> Germany, on its part, is set to make a renewed pitch for the Eurofighter project at a time when the contest for a $10.4 billion tender for supplying 126 fighter aircraft to India is intensifying by the day.
> 
> Germany will contend that the Eurofighter offer is unique as it involves technology transfer and is likely to stress that it is ready to forgo the End-User Monitoring Agreement (EUMA) that even India's close partners like the US insist on, an informed source disclosed.
> 
> Early this week, the German envoy outlined the attractions of the Eurofighter Typhoon at a speech at the Indian Council for World Affairs. "We are here for the long haul...We are even forgoing the End-User Monitoring Agreement (EUMA) and offering complete transfer of technology. We would like India to work closely with us in the future development of the aircraft," he had said.
> 
> Germany, which is leading the Eurofighter consortium of several leading defence giants in Europe including EADS and BAE Systems , is hoping that India takes a favorable decision on the Eurofighter by the time Merkel comes here in the summer next year, the source disclosed.
> 
> The Eurofighter Typhoon will be competing against the US F/A-18 Super Hornet and F-16IN Super Viper, Sweden's Gripen, France's Rafale and Russia's MiG-35 to win the Indian Air Force's medium multi-role combat ircraft (MMRCA) project, touted as the mother of all defence deals.
> 
> Britain, Germany, Spain and Italy have come together to pitch for the Typhoon. *British Defence Secretary Liam Fox extolled the Typhoon during his visit to India, saying it performed brilliantly in the field trials conducted by the IAF. *


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## Young Wolf

luckyyy said:


> do you think they will be going for astra mk2 without fully testing astra(80km)...



of course they will... that is the indian way.... testing of lca has been going on for long but work on mk2 has already started...forget mk2 we have also started work on amca without the lca fully complete.
agni II+ not completed and work on agni V started.....am not saying this is wrong view.... infact i agree with this view(forward thinking).
all i am saying is that the success of astra mk1 should not be judged by the fact that work on mk2 has started


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## ganimi kawa

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> I suspect many Indian's support the Rafale because it is pretty . Do you like pretty things too Sancho..



I think all of them are pretty in their own way!

Wish we could have them all!

From an aviation buff PoV, this is the "miss world" pageant for combat aircrafts!

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Trisonics

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> I suspect many Indian's support the Rafale because it is pretty .



I suspect you are jealous

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## sancho

@ DBC

It just shows that you still try and try and try, but fail and fail and fail! 

Radar range no issue for India, Swiss and Brazil, only UAE wants't more of everything that's all!
They purposely went for more sensors and not beeing limited to radar alone, that's even an advantage of the Rafale!
Refueling probe don't have to be in the nose section, check Gripen, or F16IN, so your point is totally baseless!
Lack of HMD, nothing new, I said that often enough as a downside of Rafale, but it's just a mater of integration, because it was tested before, just like the CFTs, or more weapon stations.
Engine, explain often enough and still you come up with this fake issue, but it just shows your lack of arguments!

P.S. Who needs Towed decoy when you already have such excellent self defense capabilities of SPECTRA?



> The efficiency of Spectra notably was demonstrated in 2008 at the Red Flag exercise at Nellis Air Force Base, Nevada, *where during all sorties the Rafale escaped SAM missile threats*. This followed a successful demonstration at the NATO MACE electronic warfare campaign in Europe.



And this with SPECTRA in training modes only, which was one reason why the USF was so pi... off about the French, because you couldn't get an idea of SPECTRAs real capabilities. 



Trisonics said:


> I suspect you are jealous



Obviously, girls can't take it if someone else gets more attention!


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## dbc

sancho said:


> @ DBC
> 
> Obviously, girls can't take it if someone else gets more attention!



..attention??  in case you haven't noticed no one wants the Rafale.


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## Just Yash

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> ..attention??  in case you haven't noticed no one wants the Rafale.



I DO


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## dbc

Just Yash said:


> I DO



Do you have 7 to 10 Billion$? If you don't then your liking the Rafael doesn't help. The Rafale may catch a break in Brazil, if it doesn't then its curtains, lets hope Lula succeeds in shoving the Rafale down a reluctant FAB's(Força Aérea Brasileira) throat.


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## kingdurgaking

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Do you have 7 to 10 Billion$? If you don't then your liking the Rafael doesn't help. The Rafale may catch a break in Brazil, if it doesn't then its curtains, lets hope Lula succeeds in shoving the Rafale down a reluctant FAB's(Força Aérea Brasileira) throat.



i have cheque of $10 billion is that oke ?.. hmmm dont point fingers if it bounces

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## ganimi kawa

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Do you have 7 to 10 Billion$? If you don't then your liking the Rafael doesn't help. The Rafale may catch a break in Brazil, if it doesn't then its curtains, *lets hope Lula succeeds in shoving the Rafale down a reluctant FAB's(Força Aérea Brasileira) throat.*




There was a talk about leaked FAB report on the evaluation of fighters ( not the one who put grippen on top, IIRC it was debunked by Brazillian gov.)

I've searched the net for quite a while but could not find anything.

Do you have any info on that? Which craft does FAB prefer?

Thanks in advance.


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## sudhir007

Nations vie for India?s combat aircraft deal

The $10-billion medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) deal is turning out to be the rallying point for visiting head of states, as almost all foreign dignitaries visiting India are campaigning vigoursly to win the bid which is touted as the &#8220;mother of all defence deals&#8221;.It began with US President Barack Obama&#8217;s recent visit to India where the defence delegates accompanying him pitched hard for the two US contenders Boeing&#8217;s F/A-18 and Lockheed Martin&#8217;s F-16.The US, which is considered to be the frontrunner following the recent defence deals between the two countries, is looking at sealing the pact at all costs as it can generate over 27,000 jobs.Earlier this week, the United Kingdom&#8217;s Secretary of State for Defence, Liam Fox, underlined the country&#8217;s support to the Eurofighter Typhoon campaign to win the tender for 126 MMRCA.Along with the UK, other European nations such as Germany, Italy and Spain are also campaigning for the Eurofighter Typhoon.Next in line is French President Nicholas Sarkozy, who will begin his four-day India visit on December 4 from Bangalore, the headquarters of Hindustan Aeronautics Limited.The state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited will build 108 of the 126 aircraft under licence with a transfer of technology.President Nich o l a s Sarkozy will visit the space and defence organisations in the city and later call upon the government officials in New Delhi to pitch for the French Rafale.Meanwhile, Russia, the other contending nation offering the MiG-35, is also not left behind as its President Dmitry Medvedev will be in India on a three-day visit starting on December 4.


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## dbc

ganimi kawa said:


> There was a talk about leaked FAB report on the evaluation of fighters ( not the one who put grippen on top, IIRC it was debunked by Brazillian gov.)
> 
> I've searched the net for quite a while but could not find anything.
> 
> Do you have any info on that? Which craft does FAB prefer?
> 
> Thanks in advance.



You couldn't find it because it does not exist, the one report submitted to Defense Minister Nelson Jobim had the Gripen on top, the F/A-18 E/F in second place and the Rafale in last place. Both Defense minister Nelson Jobim and President Lula have publicly expressed their preference for Rafale. 

Brazil Air Force prefers Swedish jets-report | Reuters


> Jan 5 (Reuters) - The Brazilian Air Force would prefer to buy its next-generation fighter jets from Sweden, putting it at odds with President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva's preference for French planes, media reported on Tuesday.
> 
> The deal, which could initially be worth more than $4 billion, has sparked fierce competition among aircraft manufacturers.
> 
> An Air Force report presented to Defense Minister Nelson Jobim said Sweden's Saab (SAABb.ST) had presented the best overall project among the three finalists, Folha de Sao Paulo newspaper reported on Tuesday.
> 
> The U.S.-made Boeing (BA.N) F18 was runner-up in the report, and France's Dassault Aviation (AVMD.PA) placed last with its Rafale jet.
> 
> The Brazilian government said last year that it was in the final stages of talks to acquire the Rafale.
> 
> Accused by critics of cutting short the bidding process, the government insisted no final decision had been made. Lula said he would have the final word and that his decision would be political and strategic.
> 
> Brazil has signed a strategic defense agreement with France worth billions of dollars, including the local assembly of helicopters and conventional and nuclear-powered submarines.
> 
> Brazil is seeking a generous technology transfer offer and local assembly as part of a contract to buy 36 jet fighters. The deal could eventually rise to more than 100 aircraft.
> 
> Saab's Gripen NG jet had a lower purchase and maintenance cost and would allow for more technology to be transferred to Brazil, Folha cited the Air Force report as saying.
> 
> Unlike the Rafale, which is a finished product, the Gripen NG would be developed with Brazilian participation, the Air Force said according to Folha.
> 
> The Veja news magazine reported this week that Jobim told friends there might not be a decision on the deal before he steps down in April to run for public office in October general elections.
> 
> For more than a decade, Brazil has been studying how to replace its aging fleet of fighter jets.
> 
> The Air Force declined to comment, and the defense ministry was not immediately available to comment. (Reporting by Raymond Colitt; Editing by Lisa Von Ahn)



Força Aérea Brasileira is opposed to the Rafale primarily because the air force will be severely hampered by the significantly higher operating cost of the Rafale. The French average just a 180 flight hours per year, contrast that with the F-15's 270 hours and F/A-18 E/F's 360 hours per year. You start to understand the FAB's opposition to the Rafale, it is more expensive to acquire, more expensive to operate and significantly more expensive to arm. 
Recall how IAF kept French Matra Durandal's in storage for eight years because they could not afford to test it, when they eventually decided to test it close to the weapons expiration date they discovered it did not work. The price for French independence is the loss of economies of scale, the F/A-18 E/F, F-117, F-15,Gripen and F-16 share common components this in turn results in immense savings that are often passed to the customer.

It will be interesting to see what happens in Brazil, if the FAB is arm twisted into accepting the Rafale the military will be forced to seek additional funding to procure and operate planned FX-2 squadrons or abandon some of its other ambitious modernization and capability improvement plans.





> Brigadier General Dominique de Longvilliers - I'm not an expert on the Rafale, but in terms of logistics, we have made an annual contract and our pilots are flying about 180h per year.

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## ranveer

Just my 2 cents...

I think Gripen is gonna win....

Tech wise,, features, weapons, TOT, cost and every other parameter is fullfilled or exceeded as per the Air force requirements.... i think...

Engine commnality with LCA is already there so thats a plus and savings points again....

I think Indians will always go for a cost advantage as our mind works for cost effective things.....Look at all the previous purchases.....

2 points which all members think of - Strategic benefits and LCA
Strategic Benefits--- there is none but why is it required in first place,,, we are in good times in laps with both US and Russia and are offering them enough contracts to satisfy our and their needs..

LCA--i think its too exaggarated that Gripen order means LCA closed...we need to understand that LCA is just started and it will take another 8 to 10 yrs to mature (ppl might kill me for saying this) and it is going to stay... i am saying mature and not flying,, its already flying... but in that time its going to be a potent weapon..

Gripen is already matured platform and ready to use,,,,it will benefit LCA making in the long run and if we can get something more from SAAB what we require for LCA than it is sone pe suhaga...

I havent seen anyone shout on AMCA funding.......if are getting MRCA, FGFA then why AMCA still the same as MRCA or FGA... but guys this is how it works.... buy as u need and develop in home as it takes time and effort but u cant keep ur forces on bay if u dont have fighters,, so will need to buy abroad and simultaneous develop...15 yrs henceforth we will get mature AERO insdustry...

Look at missile program or space programmes----almost 25 yrs before started and today giving fruits...so LCA fruits will be in different variety after 15 yrs.... in AMCA, UAV, UCAV or whatever..
for today we need planes in urgent and get them home early..


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## Agnostic_Indian

Gripen can only fly at match 1.1. Isn't it very bad ??


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## ranveer

bhagathsingh said:


> Gripen can only fly at match 1.1. Isn't it very bad ??



veera,,, wish i could fly at Mach 1.1,,,LOL

yaar i dont know much abt what other aircrafts could fly at but have read some where they dont fly too fast... most of them are just between 0.8 mach and 1.8 mach.... 
we indians are making Brahmos that can fly at 5 to 7 mach so we will add that later to make it worlds fastest later..sry just intended pun..
Gripen i guess would be faster or equal to most other aircrafts,,, with its light weight and uprated F414 engine... yeah also its a single engine.. so dont know how it affects speed difference... in lay mans term 2 engines means more muscle and more stamina so may be faster... but with more money and everything more...


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## jha

bhagathsingh said:


> Gripen can only fly at match 1.1. Isn't it very bad ??



Where did you learn this..?

It super cruises and that too at >Mach 1.1.


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## luckyyy

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Do you have 7 to 10 Billion$? If you don't then your liking the Rafael doesn't help. The Rafale may catch a break in Brazil, if it doesn't then its curtains, lets hope Lula succeeds in shoving the Rafale down a reluctant FAB's(Força Aérea Brasileira) throat.



any idea why EF couldn't even make it to finals in brazil..?


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## luckyyy

intrestingly French president coming next dec 4 , i am sure if the upgraded deal wonldn't get signed this time , i means it's not required...

also due to the contrect clouses in the mirage deal , india can't modify them without french ......the same will be apply to Rfale too , even india will get T0T and build the aircraft at home but when comes the alteration /modification/upgrade has to be done by the french....and has to pay heaftly..
on the same line i think F-16/18 & MIG-35 also follows...

also the false claims of franch tech has seen in Matra Durandal..

so did france not hopefull of getting the mmrca deal as apperent in their behaviour...


the rest two EF & Gripen ......

anybody has idea why EF couldn't make it to finals at brazil...

and the SU-35 withdraws..........


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## jha

luckyyy said:


> intrestingly French president coming next dec 4 , *i am sure if the upgraded deal wonldn't get signed this time , i means it's not required...
> *
> also due to the contrect clouses in the mirage deal , india can't modify them without french ......the same will be apply to Rfale too , even india will get T0T and build the aircraft at home but when comes the alteration /modification/upgrade has to be done by the french....and has to pay heaftly..
> on the same line i think F-16/18 & MIG-35 also follows...
> 
> also the false claims of franch tech has seen in Matra Durandal..
> 
> so did france not hopefull of getting the mmrca deal as apperent in their behaviour...
> 
> 
> the rest two EF & Gripen ......
> 
> anybody has idea why EF couldn't make it to finals at brazil...
> 
> and the SU-35 withdraws..........





> i am sure if the upgraded deal wonldn't get signed this time , i means it's not required...



This deal WILL be signed..And yes the upfrades ARE required to make these aircrafts deadlier..



> also due to the contrect clouses in the mirage deal , india can't modify them without french ......the same will be apply to Rfale too , even india will get T0T and build the aircraft at home but when comes the alteration /modification/upgrade has to be done by the french



There is no such problem with french..We have altered their planes in past and there was no big issue..


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## Agnostic_Indian

jha said:


> Where did you learn this..?
> 
> It super cruises and that too at >Mach 1.1.



ok..so with after burner it can achieve more speed right ?


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## sancho

You obviously don't follow the competition!



Death.By.Chocolate said:


> You couldn't find it because it does not exist, the one report submitted to Defense Minister Nelson Jobim had the Gripen on top, the F/A-18 E/F in second place and the Rafale in last place. Both Defense minister Nelson Jobim and President Lula have publicly expressed their preference for Rafale...



That's the fake report that came up in the press, Gripen came never on top out of the FAB evaluations! The first evaluation even had the F18SH as the best choice, because they took requirements that was set in the initial competition that gave cost-effectiveness priority. But that doesn't fit to the actual requirements of Brazil anymore, that's why they now gave ToT and industrial benefits a higher rating. Especially the ToT requirement puts the SH now way back behind the others, with Rafale as first and Gripen as second. Btw Gripen came second only, because of high risks and less offsets, while it was even leading in terms of ToT!




Death.By.Chocolate said:


> For&#231;a A&#233;rea Brasileira is opposed to the Rafale primarily because the air force will be severely hampered by the significantly higher operating cost of the Rafale...




The preference for Gripen is mainly PR by Saab, that has close relations to Embraer and other Brazilian companies that hopes to get some involvement into Gripen development. That of course is not possible with Rafale, or F18SH, because they are already operational and that can only be build under licence, or in terms of the SH assembled mainly.

Unlilke India, Brazil has no real threat from other nations, so higher numbers of Gripens would fulfill their needs. However, Brazil is an emerging economy and is searching for strategic benefits, be it for defense deals, or political support and that's exactly what Saab/Sweden can't offer. Not to mention that the Gripen is highly dependen on other nations and especially the bad experience with US restrictions in a problem for the gov!
For these requirements, France and the Rafale are obviously the best choice for them and there is a little doubt that any other fighter would win this competition.
France is for Brazil what Russia is for India, a reliable long term strategic partner!



luckyyy said:


> any idea why EF couldn't even make it to finals in brazil..?



Most likely for the same reason it didn't made it in most of the competitions it was fielded, highest costs and A2G capabilities!



luckyyy said:


> also due to the contrect clouses in the mirage deal , india can't modify them without french



Oh boy, we did changes on the Mirage during Kargil even without telling them and as we told them about it, they didn't said anything!

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## sancho

jha said:


> This deal WILL be signed..And yes the upfrades ARE required to make these aircrafts deadlier..



Btw, Jha did you heared anything about AASM, or Scalp included in the upgrade package? Both would be a big boost of IAF strike capabilities, but I didn't read anything about it.



bhagathsingh said:


> ok..so with after burner it can achieve more speed right ?



Yes, but that's what all contenders can. Super Cruise instead is only said for EF, Gripen NG and to some extend the Rafale.

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## jha

sancho said:


> Btw, Jha did you heared anything about AASM, or Scalp included in the upgrade package? Both would be a big boost of IAF strike capabilities, but I didn't read anything about it.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, but that's what all contenders can. Super Cruise instead is only said for EF, Gripen NG and to some extend the Rafale.



No..No Scalp as much as i have heard..However there is some gossip that Upgrade will make all these on par with French mirage ( capable of launching N-attacks..)..thats why so secrecy in the scope of the deal..

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## sancho

jha said:


> No..No Scalp as much as i have heard..However there is some gossip that Upgrade will make all these on par with French mirage ( capable of launching N-attacks..)..thats why so secrecy in the scope of the deal..



Interesting, could that be the reason why MKIs trained protecting high value targets in the Grauda Exercise? There were many pics of them in close formation with French Mirage 2000s.


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## jha

sancho said:


> Interesting, could that be the reason why MKIs trained protecting high value targets in the Grauda Exercise? There were many pics of them in close formation with French Mirage 2000s.



YEs..that might be the reason..
Infact converting mirages into Mirage-N config. is a masterstroke..Then it will be interesting to have ~90 N-capable aircrafts..Infact it will be beneficial to buy the Qatar and UAE Miarge than stretching the MRCA order to 200.


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## luckyyy

sancho said:


> we did changes on the Mirage during Kargil even without telling them and as we told them about it, they didn't said anything!



so you think IAF will be doing this again to rafale as well without telling them and they will not say anything.......
as i read from news reports , france did registered their objection on the alteration on mirage during kargil..

but that was not the point , the fect of the matter is , india have to go to them for any modification/upgrade on Rafale and pay the cost they ask...like the mirage upgrade...


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## dbc

sancho said:


> Yes, but that's what all contenders can. Super Cruise instead is only said for EF, Gripen NG and to some extend the Rafale.



None of the MMRCA can super cruise in any meaningful battle configuration. EF, Gripen, F/A-18 E/F and F-16 have all demonstrated the ability to super cruise with light air to air loads. The Rafale has claimed the ability to super cruise but this was never demonstrated.


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## GORKHALI

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> None of the MMRCA can super cruise in any meaningful battle configuration. EF, Gripen, F/A-18 E/F and F-16 have all demonstrated the ability to super cruise with light air to air loads. The Rafale has claimed the ability to super cruise but this was never demonstrated.



aaaaaaaaaaa!!!!! ARE YOU SURE ABOUT *F/A 18 SUPER HORNY AND F-16 *can SUPERCRUISE ???? please do provide some link not any forum members comment


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## dbc

sancho said:


> You obviously don't follow the competition!
> 
> 
> 
> That's the fake report that came up in the press, Gripen came never on top out of the FAB evaluations! The first evaluation even had the F18SH as the best choice, because they took requirements that was set in the initial competition that gave cost-effectiveness priority. But that doesn't fit to the actual requirements of Brazil anymore, that's why they now gave ToT and industrial benefits a higher rating. Especially the ToT requirement puts the SH now way back behind the others, with Rafale as first and Gripen as second. Btw Gripen came second only, because of high risks and less offsets, while it was even leading in terms of ToT!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The preference for Gripen is mainly PR by Saab, that has close relations to Embraer and other Brazilian companies that hopes to get some involvement into Gripen development. That of course is not possible with Rafale, or F18SH, because they are already operational and that can only be build under licence, or in terms of the SH assembled mainly.
> 
> Unlilke India, Brazil has no real threat from other nations, so higher numbers of Gripens would fulfill their needs. However, Brazil is an emerging economy and is searching for strategic benefits, be it for defense deals, or political support and that's exactly what Saab/Sweden can't offer. Not to mention that the Gripen is highly dependen on other nations and especially the bad experience with US restrictions in a problem for the gov!
> For these requirements, France and the Rafale are obviously the best choice for them and there is a little doubt that any other fighter would win this competition.
> France is for Brazil what Russia is for India, a reliable long term strategic partner!



Sancho you're saying there are three reports that had each of the three finalist in the lead? Like I said before start your posts with *"Once upon a time....."*

FAB wants the Gripen everyone in Brazil knows this...


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## sancho

jha said:


> YEs..that might be the reason..
> Infact converting mirages into Mirage-N config. is a masterstroke..Then it will be interesting to have ~90 N-capable aircrafts..Infact it will be beneficial to buy the Qatar and UAE Miarge than stretching the MRCA order to 200.



I doubt that we will go for them, because they don't come at small prices and even if, I'd prefer to take the UAE M2K instead of an upgrade of the older once. Even French pilots say that those M2Ks are the most advanced versions, but the UAE knows that too of course.



luckyyy said:


> so you think IAF will be doing this again to rafale as well without telling them and they will not say anything..
> 
> ...india have to go to them for any modification/upgrade on Rafale and pay the cost they ask...like the mirage upgrade...



For sure! If it is neccesary for the security of India in such a war situation like Kargil and they are able to do it, they HAVE TO DO IT (!!!), no matter which vendor will protest. Those issues can be cleared later, but India comes first!

And no, Dassault won't have an issue with that, because they (and France gov) didn't had some back then, when we were not much more than a simple customer and for sure won't have it if we would buy nearly as much Rafales as they are.
Btw, they were the first to offer full ToT of the radar and source codes, which already give us the freedom to modify the fighter, not to mention that they offered Kaveri-Snecma engine integration. What more should they offer to show that we have ultimate freedom? 
The upgrade could be costly, can't argue with that, but we always have to go for any upgrade to the vendors. That's the way we do it with the Russian fighters (Su 30 MKI, or Mig 29) and how it is planed with Mirage too, but only with some of the fighter, the rest will be upgraded in India at HAL. It would be interesting how that would be if we go for the SH? Isn't PAF sending their F16s B15 to Turkey to be upgraded?


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## sancho

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> None of the MMRCA can super cruise in any meaningful battle configuration. EF, Gripen, F/A-18 E/F and F-16 have all demonstrated the ability to super cruise with light air to air loads. The Rafale has claimed the ability to super cruise but this was never demonstrated.



Why do you have to made up arguments for the US fighters? Has the Super Hornet, or the F18 *Hornet* showed SC capabilities?
The F16 can't SC either, even LM says:



> a clean F-16, with only wingtip missiles, can reach Mach 1.1 without reheat. But the company says supercruise is defined as the ability to fly faster than Mach 1.5, in combat configuration.



The truth about that "supercruising" F-16 for India (The Woracle)


So it is far away from the sustained SC with real A2A loads that EF and Gripen demonstrated and even more far away from what the company itself acknowledges as SC.
So bottom line only the Eurocanards has proven SC, or claim to do so at least with A2A loads. Dassault for example says:



> «The Rafale is ideal for the job, stresses one of the two duty pilots.
> It can climb to 40,000 feet in under two minutes and accelerate
> very rapidly to supersonic speed. More significantly, *it can supercruise
> in dry power, even with four missiles and a belly drop
> tank.* Endurance is excellent too, and we can stay airborne up
> to two hours with one tank.»



http://www.dassault-aviation.com/fi...teur/AUTRES_DOCS/Fox_three/Fox_Three_nr_8.pdf

Although it is an official Dassault Aviation source and according to reports from the Swiss evaluation it demonstrated this capability their too, but even I remain sceptical till I see a figure at what speed it can do it. 
As I told you before, it would be only an addition to the advantages it already offers!




Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Sancho you're saying there are three reports that had each of the three finalist in the lead? Like I said before start your posts with *"Once upon a time....."*
> 
> FAB wants the Gripen everyone in Brazil knows this...



Not really, I was only talking about the 2 official reports FAB made for the technical evaluations, you instead were talking about the made up report of the media.


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## dbc

sancho said:


> Why do you have to made up arguments for the US fighters? Has the Super Hornet, or the F18 *Hornet* showed SC capabilities?
> The F16 can't SC either, even LM says:
> 
> 
> 
> The truth about that "supercruising" F-16 for India (The Woracle)
> 
> 
> So it is far away from the sustained SC with real A2A loads that EF and Gripen demonstrated and even more far away from what the company itself acknowledges as SC.
> So bottom line only the Eurocanards has proven SC, or claim to do so at least with A2A loads. Dassault for example says:
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.dassault-aviation.com/fi...teur/AUTRES_DOCS/Fox_three/Fox_Three_nr_8.pdf
> 
> Although it is an official Dassault Aviation source and according to reports from the Swiss evaluation it demonstrated this capability their too, but even I remain sceptical till I see a figure at what speed it can do it.
> As I told you before, it would be only an addition to the advantages it already offers!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not really, I was only talking about the 2 official reports FAB made for the technical evaluations, you instead were talking about the made up report of the media.



Go back and read my post I said *"None of the MMRCA can super cruise in any meaningful battle configuration"*. Four or two air to air missiles is not a meaningful battle configuration. Any meaningful battle configuration requires all weapons stations to be occupied.

You quote a blog to prove that the F-16 can't super cruise, the author of the blog actually confirms what I said, two wingtip missile is a light air -to - air configuration. By USAF definition of supercruise the F-16 does not qualify, neither does the the F-15,Rafale or the F/A-18 E/F.



> *The F-18 was the first US fighter capable of supersonic speeds without the use of afterburners.*



http://www.eaton.com/ecm/groups/public/@pub/@eaton/@aero/documents/content/ct_196796.pdf

Yes the Hornet can briefly sustain supersonic speeds without AB with a centerline drop tank and air to air missiles but by USAF definition "... the ability to cruise at speeds of one and a half times the speed of sound or greater without the use of afterburner for extended periods in combat configuration." 

None of the MMRCA jets including the Rafale and Hornet can supercruise.




> *According to Defence Analysis and Flight Daily News, the Singapore evaluation also reportedly revealed problems with Rafale's reliability and availability, and that the aircraft failed to demonstrate claimed radar performance or its claimed ability to supercruise.* Singapore was also reportedly unimpressed by Rafale's much vaunted "Omni role" capability. "Show us, properly" was said to have been the reaction, according to Defence Analysis.



Electronic Aviation - Dassault Rafale - Problems

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## the rafter

> According to Defence Analysis and Flight Daily News, the Singapore evaluation also reportedly revealed problems with Rafale's reliability and availability, and that the aircraft failed to demonstrate claimed radar performance or its claimed ability to supercruise. Singapore was also reportedly unimpressed by Rafale's much vaunted "Omni role" capability. "Show us, properly" was said to have been the reaction, according to Defence Analysis.



This article is like 4 yrs old? Does the current rafale still have all of these major issues?


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## luckyyy

jha said:


> This deal WILL be signed..And yes the upfrades ARE required to make these aircrafts deadlier..
> 
> There is no such problem with french..We have altered their planes in past and there was no big issue..





> According to Defence Analysis and Flight Daily News, the Singapore evaluation also reportedly *revealed problems with Rafale's reliability and availability, and that the aircraft failed to demonstrate claimed radar performance or its claimed ability to supercruise. Singapore was also reportedly unimpressed by Rafale's much vaunted "Omni role" capability. "Show us, properly" was said to have been the reaction, *according to Defence Analysis. .



The Taiwan defence ministry will consider a proposal to scrap the air force's Mirage 200 jets from service or seal and store part of the fleet, according to Minister of National Defense Kao Hua-chu.

The air force's budget for 2010 shows that the operation and maintenance cost of the Mirage 2000 is earmarked at about $24,840 a flight hour.

In comparison, it costs about $4,937 a flight hour to fly the nation's F-16 fighters and $7,715 a flight hour for the country's self-developed indigenous defence fighters.

The air force ordered 60 Mirage jets in 1992, *the first squadron of which came into service in December 1997.* Currently, 57 of the planes are still in service.

Taiwan Looks to Scrap Mirage 2000 Jets - Air Force Technology

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## the rafter

luckyyy said:


> The Taiwan defence ministry will consider a proposal to scrap the air force's Mirage 200 jets from service or seal and store part of the fleet, according to Minister of National Defense Kao Hua-chu



Again, this is an old article!
Here's the last development that took place:

*France compensates Taiwan for Mirage 2000 engine trouble*

France has compensated Taiwan for engine damage to its Mirage 2000s, and the fighter jets have since been returned to their normal training operations, Air Force officials said.
Ger Hsi-hsiung (&#33883;&#29081;&#29066, chief of staff of the Air Force, made the remarks at a legislative meeting last week in response to a question from Chinese Nationalist Party (KMT) Legislator Lin Yu-fang (&#26519;&#37057;&#26041, who first brought the issue to light last October, saying that the Air Force had considered suspension of operations of its Mirage fleet because of engine damage.
The Air Force regulates that each Mirage pilot fly 15 hours monthly, but because of the damaged fighters, Mirage pilots were only able to maintain eight hours of training operations from September to December last year.
Ger told the legislative meeting that the Air Force had later reached a deal with France in which the latter had agreed to supply the aircraft&#8217;s Snecma M53-P2 turbofan engines and that the fighter squadron, since January, has returned to its regular monthly 15 hours of training operations.
Lin said France sent personnel to Taiwan late last year to repair the engines. It also provided advanced scope testing equipment for fighter aircraft, trained Taiwan&#8217;s personnel free of charge, and delivered parts and supplies for the Mirages ahead of schedule. The military said the compensation was worth about 10 million euros (US$13.5 million).
Taiwan ordered 48 single-seat Mirage 2000-5EI interceptors and 12 Mirage twin-seat 2000-5DI trainers in 1992.
The first squadron became operational in 1997.
http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2010/03/22/2003468632


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## luckyyy

the rafter said:


> Again, this is an old article!
> Here's the last development that took place:



just a year old article....
the aircrafts are just 12 years old....

they are compansating by money to repair them free not improving the aircrafts....the next time aircraft fly will still going to cost $25000 per hour...

IAF mirage are even older...don't know how much they be costing to operate...

on mmrca , the IAF knows better , but there was a news that Rafale failed in technicle eveluation , but then under govt pressure it still fly in field evaluation...


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## Agnostic_Indian

So none of the jets can supercruise with all stations occupied but..
1.can't they (typhoon, gripen, fa 18 )still maintain better speed than f16 and rafale with out after burner. 
2. Typhoon and gripen will regain the ability to supercruise once they use the missiles and reduce the load to desired level.. Right or wrong ?


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## the rafter

luckyyy said:


> just a year old article....
> the aircrafts are just 12 years old....
> they are compansating by money to repair them free not improving the aircrafts....the next time aircraft fly will still going to cost $25000 per hour...
> IAF mirage are even older...don't know how much they be costing to operate...
> on mmrca , the IAF knows better , but there was a news that Rafale failed in technicle eveluation , but then under govt pressure it still fly in field evaluation...



I don't think India has any issues with its Mirage fleet. Mirage was successfully used during Kargil war. India even asked to buy more Mirages but France denied (offered Rafale instead) and thats how MMRCA was floated.


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## dbc

the rafter said:


> This article is like 4 yrs old? Does the current rafale still have all of these major issues?



It can't be said with any certainty that these problems have been fixed. It is certain that the Rafale acquisition represents a higher risk for the IAF due to the known unknowns. We know the F1/F2 have issues and capability GAPs - are these addressed with F3? Basic capability like target designation is only recently possible with the introduction of Damocles. Even the JF-17 Thunder a 15m$ plane has a target designation pod in the first block.

The problematic OSF's IR-channel has been deleted from the newer OSF-IT, in this particular case the French choose to eliminate rather than fix. Much needed capability like HMD's is not even funded. 

These and other issues that have been discussed to death on this very thread may have been resolved but unless the IAF acquires and operates the aircraft there is no way to know for sure that everything works as advertised.

Is the IAF prepared to risk the possible acquisition of an expensive hangar queen? Especially knowing that with each passing day its fleet of Mig-27's, Mig-21's and other strike platforms become more dangerous and expensive to operate. I think not, and it is for this reason that I believe the Indians will likely prefer a proven platform.


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## satishkumarcsc

DBC..many of the VVS pilots. IAF pilots and the USAF pilots I spoke to are still skeptical about super-cruise as they dont like to fly at the trans-sonic and low supersonic speeds. Can you clarify that for me?


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## dbc

satishkumarcsc said:


> DBC..many of the VVS pilots. IAF pilots and the USAF pilots I spoke to are still skeptical about super-cruise as they dont like to fly at the trans-sonic and low supersonic speeds. Can you clarify that for me?



They haven't flown the Raptor, external stores or dirty wing make sustained upper transonic or supersonic flight fuel inefficient. They reason non Raptor pilots avoid this regime is because it reduces the amount of time they get to spend in the air. Internal weapons bay go a long way in reducing drag and improving fuel efficiency. In addition, most engines are time bound in full AB(afterburner). In other words, full afterburner is disabled after a few minutes of continuous operation to prevent engine damage, AB on the Raptor and F/A-18 E/F is only limited by the amount of fuel left.

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## sancho

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> EF, Gripen, *F/A-18 E/F and F-16* have all demonstrated the ability to super cruise...



This is what you said in the last post and this is what you say now:



Death.By.Chocolate said:


> *By USAF definition of supercruise the F-16 does not qualify*, neither does the the F-15,Rafale *or the F/A-18 E/F*...



Once again you got caught red handed for making things up! 

Also, the EF is said to SC with 4 AMRAAM and 2 Asraams at speeds up to Mach 1.5 and a normal A2A payload is a centerline fuel tank and 6 AAMs. I doubt that the 1000l centerline fuel tank of EF will produce that much drag, that it falls under Mach 1.2 and if Dassault claims are true and Rafale can SC at at least Mach 1.2, it offers the same advantage in CAP.

However, what we clearly see is the potential of modern designs like the Eurocanards, especially if we look into the future. Older designs like Mig, F16, or even the SH that simply had other design aims, don't offer such future potential.




Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Even the JF-17 Thunder a 15m$ plane has a target designation pod in the first block.



And the next thing you made up! JF 17 is still using dumb bombs and has no targeting pod integrated so far. Not to mention that it is totally normal for fighters to first integrate full A2A capabilities and add A2G later. EF did it, Gripen did it, Rafale did it, even your US fighters.

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## dbc

sancho said:


> This is what you said in the last post and this is what you say now:
> 
> 
> 
> Once again you got caught red handed for making things up!
> 
> Also, the EF is said to SC with 4 AMRAAM and 2 Asraams at speeds up to Mach 1.5 and a normal A2A payload is a centerline fuel tank and 6 AAMs. I doubt that the 1000l centerline fuel tank of EF will produce that much drag, that it falls under Mach 1.2 and if Dassault claims are true and Rafale can SC at at least Mach 1.2, it offers the same advantage in CAP.
> 
> However, what we clearly see is the potential of modern designs like the Eurocanards, especially if we look into the future. Older designs like Mig, F16, or even the SH that simply had other design aims, don't offer such future potential.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And the next thing you made up! JF 17 is still using dumb bombs and has no targeting pod integrated so far. Not to mention that it is totally normal for fighters to first integrate full A2A capabilities and add A2G later. EF did it, Gripen did it, Rafale did it, even your US fighters.



Not the first time you've resorted to deception, here is my quote in its entirety. You've quoted me out of context to confuse and deceive the readers. 



Death.By.Chocolate said:


> None of the MMRCA can super cruise in any meaningful battle configuration. EF, Gripen, F/A-18 E/F and F-16 have all demonstrated the ability to super cruise with light air to air loads. The Rafale has claimed the ability to super cruise but this was never demonstrated.





sancho said:


> And the next thing you made up! JF 17 is still using dumb bombs and has no targeting pod integrated so far. Not to mention that it is totally normal for fighters to first integrate full A2A capabilities and add A2G later. EF did it, Gripen did it, Rafale did it, even your US fighters.




Next, I'm no expert on JF-17 I've neither followed its development nor taken any interest in the aircraft. But according to wiki, JF-17 production run began in June 2009 and in it first international appearance in Farnborough 2010 the WMD-7 laser designation pod was prominently displayed along with the JF-17. Contrast that with 
the Rafale a program that began in the 80's and touted as *OMNI role fighter* only demonstrated designator pod integration 23 years later in 2008. It may be normal for fighters like Eurofighter Typhoon primary built for air superiority to have limited ground strike capability but for an *OMNI role fighter it is a must have*.









sancho said:


> However, what we clearly see is the potential of modern designs like the Eurocanards, especially if we look into the future. Older designs like Mig, F16, or even the SH that simply had other design aims, don't offer such future potential.



Here is future potential for the F/A-18 E/F the Boeing SuperHornet international road map with enclosed weapons pod to lower radar signature that can carry up to 2 AIM-120 AMRAAM missiles and 2 JDAM 500 pound smart bombs, full spherical laser and missile warning systems, a new cockpit based on large touch-screen technology, improved F414 engines (EDE/EPE), and conformal fuel tanks mounted up top to boost range.



















> Boeing has said it is offering India the "International Super Hornet Roadmap", which it describes as the next evolution of the Block II Super Hornet -- "which increases survivability, situational awareness, and performance for customers". The company says it has been investing in the International Roadmap for the last two years along with the US Navy. Under the programme, says Boeing, if India chooses the Super Hornet as part of the MMRCA, the Indian Air Force will have the option of adding evolutionary technologies to the platform within this decade on an incremental basis starting 2015. Funded by the US Navy and developed by Boeing, the roadmap on offer allows for the planned insertion of maturing technologies over time. Boeing says this would give the IAF flexibility over the years if they want to insert/ integrate the following new technologies:
> 
> * Enhanced Performance Engines
> * Next-generation cockpit
> * Spherical missile laser warning
> * Internal Infra-Red Search & Track (IRST)
> * Conformal fuel tanks (see aircraft in slide)
> * Enclosed weapons pod (see aircraft in slide)
> * Designed-in stealth
> * Future survivability technology that will "make the Block II Super Hornet harder to detect, harder to hit, and harder to kill"
> 
> According to a note that Boeing sent over, "While India is getting Block II of the Super Hornet, the International Super Hornet roadmap gives India the choice of considerable growth potential. India will be able to participate as an International Super Hornet Roadmap customer, if desired, and could potentially enhance future Indian Super Hornets. The design and growth of the Super Hornet has been done keeping a 40 year life span during which the aircraft remains combat proven."



Livefist - Indian Defence & Aerospace: Boeing Offers India "Super Hornet International Roadmap"


*Contrast that with the Rafale, the French had to sell military real estate and wireless bandwidth to finance the last batch of 11 Rafale's. They don't have the money to improve the engine, radar or HMD - great future potential!!!
*

More bad news for the Rafale, fortunately the pilot is safe...



> A French Rafale aircraft crashed into the sea for unknown reasons Sunday off the coast of Pakistan. The pilot, who ejected, was unhurt, said the Defense Ministry in Paris.
> 
> "The F3 Rafale fighter plane crashed into the sea not far from the aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle in the area of operations of the naval group located more than 100 km of the coast of Pakistan," the ministry said in a statement. The pilot, rescued by a helicopter, is unharmed and has been supported by the medical team from the aircraft carrier.
> 
> An investigation is underway to determine the circumstances of the accident. Since November 25, and for a period of one month, units onboard the Charles de Gaulle participate in air support missions in Afghanistan.



Le Figaro - Flash Actu : Pakistan : un Rafale s'ab&#238;me en mer


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## FSLN

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Here is future potential for the F/A-18 E/F the Boeing SuperHornet international road map with enclosed weapons pod to lower radar signature that can carry up to 2 AIM-120 AMRAAM missiles and 2 JDAM 500 pound smart bombs, full spherical laser and missile warning systems, a new cockpit based on large touch-screen technology, improved F414 engines (EDE/EPE), and conformal fuel tanks mounted up top to boost range.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Livefist - Indian Defence & Aerospace: Boeing Offers India "Super Hornet International Roadmap"



As I said before, the SuperHornet its an evolving platform and can't be compared to outdated F-16 or 4th gen designs..


----------



## MST

Indian MMRCA contract by March 2011: IAF Chief 

*The Indian contract to buy 126 MMRCA fighter aircraft is expected to be signed by March 2011, the Indian Air Force Chief of Staff, P.V. Naik has been quoted as saying.*


In an interview to Vayu Aerospace, a media partner of defenseworld.net, the air force chief said that the likely timeframe for completing various activities before the contract is signed is about 6-8 months, &#8220;So, we expect the contract to be signed by March 2011. *From thereon, the induction should begin by mid 2014 onwards".*

The RFP for the M-MRCA was issued in August 2007 to six global vendors. These vendors responded with their proposals and the TEC was completed in June 2009. By this time, the IAF was already ready to undertake Field Evaluations and these were conducted from July 2009 to May 2010, the Air Chief said.

Thereafter the IAF has completed the analysis of results and compiled an exhaustive report well in time. The Staff Evaluation report was submitted on 30 July 2010.

"In my opinion, considering the number of vendors involved and the complex nature of evaluations, there has not been any inordinate delay. We have been able to achieve our objectives well within the stipulated time frame", he added.

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## sancho

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Not the first time you've resorted to deception, here is my quote in its entirety. You've quoted me out of context to confuse and deceive the readers.


 
Not really, you said that the F16 and F18SH demonstrated SC and that's plain wrong, because they didn't proved it in any real config unlike at least EF and Gripen NG, but now you admit that they can't.



Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Next, I'm no expert on JF-17 I've neither followed its development nor taken any interest in the aircraft. But according to wiki, JF-17 production run began in June 2009 and in it first international appearance in Farnborough 2010 the WMD-7 laser designation pod was prominently displayed along with the JF-17.
> 
> So if you don't know it, why did you mentioned it at all? You just used it to have *any* argument against the Rafale and the Euro canards and that's what I meant.
> Only because a mock up was displayed at an air show, it doesn't meant it is integrated, or operational.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Death.By.Chocolate said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here is future potential for the F/A-18 E/F the Boeing SuperHornet international road map...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As I already showed you in my comparison of Rafale and SH, that's nothing special! The block 3 upgrade will bring the SH only on a comparable tech and capability level that the Rafale already has, or will get by 2012!
> 
> - low RCS
> - modern cockpit design
> - high T/W ratio
> - more range
> - spherical MAWS
> 
> Boeing only using newer techs that are available now, like the touchscreen displays that's all. And to make it clear, this weapon pod is just a RCS reduction feature and not even close to F15SE, or even a real stealth fighter internal weapon bays! The pod is still an external payload and will be carried on an external pylon, more over the SR AIM 9s will still be carried on the wing tip stations.
> Btw, Dassault has already good the funds for the next upgrade and besides a more capable SPECTRA and AESA radar, they are developing new RCS reduction features too. Weapon pods and stealth shapings, as well as RAM treatings for the weapons are reported since years, but I hope for real changes on the airframe itself.
Click to expand...


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## dbc

sancho said:


> Only because a mock up was displayed at an air show, it doesn't meant it is integrated, or operational.



Are you able to prove it was a mock up? From what I've read so far WMD-7 is operational.





sancho said:


> As I already showed you in my comparison of Rafale and SH, that's nothing special! The block 3 upgrade will bring the SH only on a comparable tech and capability level that the Rafale already has, or will get by 2012!





> 5.(S/NF) BAHRAIN AIR SHOW AND NUCLEAR ENERGY: King Hamad asked General Petraeus for his help in encouraging U.S.
> aircraft manufacturers to participate in the inaugural
> Bahrain Air Show, scheduled for January 2010. He said that
> *France was pushing the Rafale and would be there in force,although he agreed with Petraeus that the French fighter was
> yesterday's technology.*




Is that why everyone is calling it yesterday's technology? 
You're seriously deluded if you think the Rafale compares in anyway to the Super Hornet road map.


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## FSLN

sancho said:


> As I already showed you in my comparison of Rafale and SH, that's nothing special! The block 3 upgrade will bring the SH only on a comparable tech and capability level that the Rafale already has, or will get by 2012!


I will just gonna point out one feature Rafale just wont have in the next 5 years....

AN/APG-79 Please let me know if Rafale will have anything close to the quality of this radar...


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## Dalai Lama

BENNY said:


> http://2.bp.blogspot.com/__A2VG2LiIPk/TKZIMryq-WI/AAAAAAAAANA/kUR8dUtZw2U/s1600/gripen_babe.jpg
> 
> *Sexiest Gripen pic ever*.



swedish women = sexy

*agreed!*


----------



## 1000VA

Indian MMRCA contract by March 2011: IAF Chief : Defense news

The Indian contract to buy 126 MMRCA fighter aircraft is expected to be signed by March 2011, the Indian Air Force Chief of Staff, P.V. Naik has been quoted as saying.


In an interview to Vayu Aerospace, a media partner of defenseworld.net, the air force chief said that the likely timeframe for completing various activities before the contract is signed is about 6-8 months, So, we expect the contract to be signed by March 2011. From thereon, the induction should begin by mid 2014 onwards".

The RFP for the M-MRCA was issued in August 2007 to six global vendors. These vendors responded with their proposals and the TEC was completed in June 2009. By this time, the IAF was already ready to undertake Field Evaluations and these were conducted from July 2009 to May 2010, the Air Chief said.

Thereafter the IAF has completed the analysis of results and compiled an exhaustive report well in time. The Staff Evaluation report was submitted on 30 July 2010.

"In my opinion, considering the number of vendors involved and the complex nature of evaluations, there has not been any inordinate delay. We have been able to achieve our objectives well within the stipulated time frame", he added.

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## kingdurgaking

^^^^ Good god.. expecting this drama to come to an end now soon.. From personal choice EFT i have come to a stage to get some damn fighter and induct it.. become so sick of this... all problem is because of IAF.. they dont know what they want...


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## rsingh

Saab to help ADA on this project. Should we read to much into this. American engine for Tejas and now this could it mean the Gripen NG could be the winner this March.

Livefist - Indian Defence & Aerospace: MAG REPORT: AMCA Moves Forward, Navy Interested, Tech Partnership Talks On With Saab


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## dbc

I have been looking for pictures of the F/A-18 E/F carrying asymmetric loads for sometime. I finally found some very good pictures, the F/A-18 E/F can fly,fight and return to the carrier carrying asymmetric loads of up to 35,000 lbs.

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## kish

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> I have been looking for pictures of the F/A-18 E/F carrying asymmetric loads for sometime. I finally found some very good pictures, the F/A-18 E/F can fly,fight and return to the carrier carrying asymmetric loads of up to 35,000 lbs.



DBC ... really good pic .. thanks ,

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## gowthamraj

Hmmm my sight now turning towards F-18 from Rafale 

I can't get control of myself 


Ladies easily changing . . . . .


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## sancho

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Are you able to prove it was a mock up? From what I've read so far WMD-7 is operational.



Why not simply go through the JF 17 thread in the PAF section? 



Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Is that why everyone is calling it yesterday's technology?
> You're seriously deluded if you think the Rafale compares in anyway to the Super Hornet road map.



And this is the official reaction on it:



> An important Foreign Ministry Statement
> 
> An official source at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs has strongly denied the statement that has been reported and attributed to His Majesty King Hamad bin Isa Al Khalifa by Agence France Presse (AFP), with regard to French Rafale Aircrafts.
> 
> The source emphasized that the reported statement by that news agency is false and has nothing to do with reality.



http://www.mofa.gov.bh/Default.aspx?tabid=7804&language=en-US


It's normal that you deny the facts, but at least I am talking about reality of the Rafale F3+ capabilities, all you have here is a Boeing upgrade proposal that nobody has funded, or ordered yet. So just wait and lets talk in 2015 again about it, when it might be ready.

But nice pics of the F18 though!

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## sancho

FSLN said:


> I will just gonna point out one feature Rafale just wont have in the next 5 years....
> 
> AN/APG-79 Please let me know if Rafale will have anything close to the quality of this radar...





> *Thales delivers First AESA radar for the Rafale F3*
> 
> Thales is delivering the first batch of 4 production AESA RBE-2AA this month (2010/08) to Dassault. Those new radar developped for the so called Rafale roadmap program will be fitted on the 60 rafale F3+ ordered for the french air force in december 2009...



Rafale News: Thales delivers First AESA radar for the Rafale F3


The radar is ready *now* and will be fitted into Rafale F3+, that will come from *2012 onwards.* 
You are welcome!


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## the rafter

*India will not select Super hornet or F-16:* (My strong opinion)
Currently India has not signed CISMoA agreement with US and until India signs it US will not give any of the sensitive avionics like it did with the C-130J (Livefist - Indian Defence & Aerospace: EXCLUSIVE: No CISMOA? Here's What They're Pulling From The Indian C-130J). There are some rules the US will NOT give up for India as it will have to do the same with other countries it does defense business (e.g. Pakistan). At the same time, India CANNOT sacrifice its sovereignty and safety to please the US and accept compromised aircrafts (F16 or FA/18-Superhornet). 
In addition, India recently signed big defense deal (~10 billions) which promises over 50,000 new jobs in US, this should satisfy and please US very well. Lets remember these are 126 multi-role fighter aircrafts (option of getting 74 more if needed) are being procured to defend and protect the country. India will not like to compromise on any tech here. 
India wants 18 aircrafts from the manufacturer (ready and not promises of future roadmap for upgrades) and the remaining will be built under license with a transfer of technology (ToT) by HAL. If India buys either F16 or Superhornet, without signing CISMoA, can it get a complete deal without any restrictions? Can the US provide the desired ToT? Desired missiles? NO!!!!! Can the US allow modifications and repair work done in India (by HAL) or will India have to pay to fly engineers from Boeing or Lockheed for repairs? Don't know? 
In addition, India or for that case any country does not want any multiplicity of having many different aircrafts in the fleet. Even IAF chief has said this (Livefist - Indian Defence & Aerospace: Multiplicity Of Fighter Inventory A Nightmare: IAF Chief).
So, to summarize: India will not risk its SAFETY and SOVEREIGNTY with F-16 or Super hornet and Since India has already signed a big defense deal with US (and pleased it), considering it will not sign CISMoA by March 2011 (when the MMRCA will be finalized), INDIA will NOT go for either F16 or Superhornets. Even though Gripen is a good aircraft, has many US parts making it a risk, so unlikely to be selected further.
So that leaves Mig-35, Rafale and Eurofighter. I remember when India got Sukhoi (Su-30) many were unhappy, but look at it now! After many changes and upgrades it has become a formidable (Su-30 MKI). 
Every aircraft which is equipped with several electronic gadgets develops some snags or errors and is prone to crashes and it is not limited to Eurofighter, Rafale or F16. If you point out Rafale/Eurofighter recently crashed then here's recent news that says Israel's F16 also crashed (Israeli fighter jet crashes during training, crew missing). 
Even the so called and revered F-22 Raptor was brought down: On Nov. 18, a Chinese submarine shot down a Canadian F18 and a U.S. F22 Raptor (Brazil Times: Blog: Twice is Coincidence)
So lets not point out at any crash if its not any repeated known technical failures. 
I welcome any peaceful and logical critiques or arguments.


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## FSLN

sancho said:


> Rafale News: Thales delivers First AESA radar for the Rafale F3QUOTE] you just can´t compare USA AESA mature Radars to French inmature and second tech tier... Unless you think french avionics are superior to American Avionics...


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## FSLN

the rafter said:


> *Even the so called and revered F-22 Raptor was brought down:QUOTE]
> 
> this is where you failed, you Just can´t compare American top of the line War planes to European ones...*


----------



## the rafter

FSLN said:


> the rafter said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Even the so called and revered F-22 Raptor was brought down:QUOTE]
> 
> this is where you failed, you Just can&#180;t compare American top of the line War planes to European ones...*
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> I'm not comparing European aircraft with the American. My point was that every aircraft has weakness/drawbacks and can be brought down. Even the ones that is considered the best in the world.
> India has requirement of multirole aircrafts which it is seeking to complete through MMRCA. American aircrafts are probably one of the best (if India gets it with full config and support).
> And to answer your question, I question you back, how many wars has this top of the line  war-plane F-22 raptor fought or was used? Was it used in Iraq war? Was it used in Afghanistan, so far? or was it used only in air-shows?*
Click to expand...


----------



## !!craft!!

the rafter said:


> FSLN said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not comparing European aircraft with the American. My point was that every aircraft has weakness/drawbacks and can be brought down. Even the ones that is considered the best in the world.
> India has requirement of multirole aircrafts which it is seeking to complete through MMRCA. American aircrafts are probably one of the best (if India gets it with full config and support).
> And to answer your question, I question you back, how many wars has this top of the line  war-plane F-22 raptor fought or was used? Was it used in Iraq war? Was it used in Afghanistan, so far? or was it used only in air-shows?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i guess only once they were summoned to intercept a Russian Tu-95MS 'Bear-H' bombers in Alaska..
Click to expand...


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## khatarnak gunda

the rafter said:


> I'm not comparing European aircraft with the American. My point was that every aircraft has weakness/drawbacks and can be brought down. Even the ones that is considered the best in the world.
> India has requirement of multirole aircrafts which it is seeking to complete through MMRCA. American aircrafts are probably one of the best (if India gets it with full config and support).
> And to answer your question, I question you back, how many wars has this top of the line  war-plane *F-22 raptor *fought or was used? Was it used in Iraq war? Was it used in Afghanistan, so far? or *was it used only in air-shows*?




i personally believe that if the aircraft is much capable and is only used in air-shows and not in wars - then it is the best aircraft.... say enemy stays away....


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## luckyyy

jha said:


> This deal WILL be signed..And yes the upfrades ARE required to make these aircrafts deadlier..
> 
> There is no such problem with french..We have altered their planes in past and there was no big issue..



*Mirage upgrade deal may not keep Sarko date*

NEW DELHI: Days ahead of French President Nicolas Sarkozy's visit to India, the government on Wednesday said the $2.1 billion Mirage 2000 fighter aircraft-upgradation deal will not be signed during the trip. Foreign ministry officials said negotiations were still under way and it wouldn't be possible to finalize the deal in the next few days. 

Sarkozy will arrive in India on December 4 and is scheduled to hold talks with PM Manmohan Singh two days later. India and France are currently negotiating upgrade of 50 such fighter jets. 

"It will not be signed during this visit but I am sure negotiations and discussions are still going on. It doesn't require an agreement to be signed during the visit," said joint secretary (EW) T P Seetharam. The two sides were earlier said to be trying to time the inking of the deal with Sarkozy's visit to India. 

Seetharam, in fact, said it was not the practice to have defence supply agreements signed during high-profile visits and that India was not expecting any defence deal to be signed during the trip. 

On issue of civil nuclear cooperation though, Seetharam said a framework agreement to build two European Pressurised Reactors (EPRs) was under negotiations but added that it may or may not be signed by Areva and NPCIL during the visit. "The proposal was for supplying two EPRs initially, which will gradually go up to six," he said.
Mirage upgrade deal may not keep Sarko date - The Times of India


----------



## sans

Manama: Bahrain on Wednesday disavowed comments attributed to King Hamad in a US cable published by the WikiLeaks whistleblower website in which he appeared to disparage a French warplane.

The published remarks were "inaccurate and taken out of context," the official Bahrain News Agency quoted a foreign ministry spokesman as saying.

WikiLeaks released a confidential US diplomatic telegram which cited the king as agreeing with US Iraq commander General David Petraeus on November 1, 2009 that France's flagship Rafale fighter was "yesterday's technology."

France has been in talks with Bahrain's Gulf neighbour, the United Arab Emirates, since 2008 in a bid to sell 60 of the aircraft which are a centrepiece of its military aerospace industry.

So far it has failed to sell a single one of the warplanes, although it remains in competition with Swedish and US manufacturers to supply the Brazilian air force.​


----------



## SpArK

*Flying the Eurofighter and France's Rafale​*






_FRANCE 24 journalist Apoorva Prasad takes flight in two of France's modern fighter planes in a cockpit comparison between the Eurofighter (pictured) and the Rafale, which recently came under fire from King Hamad of Bahrain._




"There it is, on your HUD, your ground target!"

A box encircled the nuclear power station, showing me the large cooling towers of the target. On the right hand colour display screen, a close up image of the plant appeared. The plane was in a shallow dive : I was flying closer and closer to the ground at a speed of 550+ knots, my hands nervously holding the throttle and stick. They were both thick, black and felt solid as I gripped them. Dark fields on the ground rushed in. Green lines superimposed the view in front of me, showing me my angle of attack, my speed and altitude. The sky was clear but dark, the sun close to setting. 

A red flashing sign suddenly appeared on the right hand screen, a red box surrounding the word Pickle! 

I was flying the Eurofighter Typhoon, coached by Craig Penrise, lead test pilot for the aircraft.

"Pickle it!"

I thumbed the red button on my stick. A bomb dropped away from the plane. Immediately, gratefully, I pulled up on the stick, watching the power plant fly away directly under me.

"Level out. And ease back on the throttle."

I levelled out the wings and pulled back on the throttle, switching off the afterburners. The throttle grip came back with a solid thunk, and I saw my engine power reduce on the left LCD screen.

Then I flicked a switch, and the Heads-Up Display (HUD) changed to air-to-air combat mode. Immediately two triangles came up, and I looked down at the large central screen. It had a colour map of the area I was flying over, and lines radiating out of the centre. Two triangles popped up there too. There were two unknown aircraft far in the distance, beyond my visual range - or BVR.

"If I may say so, I helped design some of this", Penrise later explained, sweeping his hand over the futuristic cockpit. Three large Multi-Functional Displays - LCD screens glowed at me as I lay back in the couch, with knobs and switches relegated to the sides.

*The jet I had flown was the Eurofighter GMBH consortium's pilot training simulator.* 

The Eurofighter has a highly advanced "man-machine interface". The cockpit is large, spacious and comfortable - and it feels very different from the cockpit of an F-16, Rafale, MiG-29, such as the Jaguar. But then, I belong to the joystick generation - I'm far more comfortable with buttons and screens than dials.



A day later, I flew the *Dassault Rafale simulator* under instruction by a test pilot and engineer. The Rafale's cockpit is tighter than the Eurofighters. But that doesn't necessarily mean that the Rafale, a slightly smaller plane, is less advanced technologically. The central MFD of the Eurofighter is replaced by a hooded "collimated to infinity" display. From the outside, it appears strange, but sitting inside the cockpit while flying, it all makes sense. From the correct position, the pilot doesn't have to peer inside - the display seems to rise up to the pilot. Essentially, the pilot's eyes don't have to refocus from the horizon outside to the screens inside. 

The MFDs (multi function display) on either side of the display are touchscreens. As in the EF Typhoon, they're all interchangeable, in case of personal preference or battle damage. Both planes have something called Direct Voice Input, or DVI. Essentially, a pilot can change display information, radio frequencies, parameters and more, just by speaking to the plane. Yes - just like in the movie Firefox.

In many of these planes, advanced sensors collate all the information available and present it comprehensively to the pilot. A sort of infra-red camera (different companies call them different things) mounted on the nose of the plane can actually capture a close up image of an enemy aircraft flying far beyond visual range, presenting it to the pilot on one of the MFDs. Helmet-mounted sighting can allow a pilot to literally look over his shoulder, target a plane and fire a missile at it.

While sitting in the Rafale, I had flicked a switch under the throttle with my pinkie, activating the autopilot. *True Hands-On Throttle And Stick (HOTAS) - or now, Voice Throttle and Stick (VTAS) technically allows a pilot to complete a six hour mission without ever lifting his hands off the throttle and joystick, because all the controls are placed on them.*

The computers took over everything, adjusting my speed automatically. All I had to do was steer the plane gently towards the little crosshairs showing me the landing field. Moments before landing, I pulled up on the stick, and touched down smoothly. Then I pushed down on both pedals to brake it to a stop.

Even I could land a modern fighter.



France24 - Flying the Eurofighter and France's Rafale

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## sancho

FSLN said:


> you just can´t compare USA AESA mature Radars to French inmature and second tech tier... Unless you think french avionics are superior to American Avionics...



You asked me to let you know when they will have comparable techs and that's what I did. There is no doubt about that the US AESAs are more mature and at least compared to the RBE 2 possibly more capable too, but that doesn't mean they are more capable in any field.


----------



## FSLN

the rafter said:


> FSLN said:
> 
> 
> 
> F-22 raptor fought or was used? Was it used in Iraq war? Was it used in Afghanistan, so far? or was it used only in air-shows?
> 
> 
> 
> there hasn't being any need to use the Raptor lately, maybe in 20 years from now when the world has caught up to U.S.A 80's tech... by that time they will have another trailer queen...
> 
> 
> 
> sancho said:
> 
> 
> 
> You asked me to let you know when they will have comparable techs and that's what I did. There is no doubt about that the US AESAs are more mature and at least compared to the RBE 2 possibly more capable too, but that doesn't mean they are more capable in any field.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Agreed...
Click to expand...

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## luckyyy

sans said:


> Manama: Bahrain on Wednesday disavowed comments attributed to King Hamad in a US cable published by the WikiLeaks whistleblower website in which he appeared to disparage a French warplane.
> 
> The published remarks were "inaccurate and taken out of context," the official Bahrain News Agency quoted a foreign ministry spokesman as saying.
> 
> WikiLeaks released a confidential* US diplomatic telegram which cited the king as agreeing with US Iraq commander General David Petraeus on November 1, 2009 that France's flagship Rafale fighter was "yesterday's technology."*
> 
> France has been in talks with Bahrain's Gulf neighbour, the United Arab Emirates, since 2008 in a bid to sell 60 of the aircraft which are a centrepiece of its military aerospace industry.
> 
> So far it has failed to sell a single one of the warplanes, although it remains in competition with Swedish and US manufacturers to supply the Brazilian air force.​




so , the news of rafale failed to pass the technical evaluation in mmrca was indeed true...​


----------



## Ammyy

*Indian MMRCA contract by March 2011: IAF Chief *
Mon, Nov 29, 2010 11:58 CET 

The Indian contract to buy 126 MMRCA fighter aircraft is expected to be signed by March 2011, the Indian Air Force Chief of Staff, P.V. Naik has been quoted as saying.


In an interview to Vayu Aerospace, a media partner of defenseworld.net, the air force chief said that the likely timeframe for completing various activities before the contract is signed is about 6-8 months, So, we expect the contract to be signed by March 2011. From thereon, the induction should begin by mid 2014 onwards".

The RFP for the M-MRCA was issued in August 2007 to six global vendors. These vendors responded with their proposals and the TEC was completed in June 2009. By this time, the IAF was already ready to undertake Field Evaluations and these were conducted from July 2009 to May 2010, the Air Chief said.

Thereafter the IAF has completed the analysis of results and compiled an exhaustive report well in time. The Staff Evaluation report was submitted on 30 July 2010.

"In my opinion, considering the number of vendors involved and the complex nature of evaluations, there has not been any inordinate delay. We have been able to achieve our objectives well within the stipulated time frame", he added. 

Indian MMRCA contract by March 2011: IAF Chief : Defense news


----------



## the rafter

FSLN said:


> there hasn't being any need to use the Raptor lately, maybe in 20 years from now when the world has caught up to U.S.A 80's tech... by that time they will have another trailer queen...



Lets see, F-22 was planned in the 80's to fight the Soviets and after 25 yrs in 2005 it was introduced in US air force (since then ~183 built instead of the original ~700 planned). It was banned for export and in 2009 the F-22 program was terminated. Over the years US has fought Iraq war (2003-2010) and is currently fighting Afghanistan war and you think there was no need for the US to use it even once? Sounds show-case aircraft to me. 
The US now has shifted to build F-35 along with finance from several other partners (which will take another few years to induct).
War planes are counted by their flying hours in combat/war. For that I have tremendous admiration for the F-15, F16 and Super hornets.


----------



## the rafter

Not sure if this news source is reliable (i.e. bloomberg.com) or bogus (if so, my apology for posting).

Rafale Fighters:
Sarkozy will seek to advance talks on an Indian Air Force tender from 2007 to buy 126 warplanes worth $11 billion, the world&#8217;s biggest fighter-jet purchase in 15 years. Paris-based Dassault Aviation SA, with its Rafale, is competing with Chicago-based Boeing Co., Lockheed Martin Corp., Stockholm-based Saab AB, European Aeronautic, Defense & Space Co., which has headquarters in Paris and Munich, and Moscow-based OAO United Aircraft Corp.



> *The Rafale has minimum chances because India is looking for jets that have already been exported,&#8221; Siemon Wezeman, a senior fellow at SIPRI, said in an interview.*



Sarkozy Seeks Weapons, Nuclear-Reactor Sales on India Trip - Bloomberg


----------



## SpArK

*Sweden 'tricked' in failed Norway Gripen bid​*





Sweden was deceived by both the United States and Norway regarding the latters interest in signing a multi-billion kronor deal to buy Sweden's JAS Gripen fighter plane.

Citing US diplomatic cables recently released by WikiLeaks, the Aftonbladet newspaper *reports that Norways supposed interest in the Gripen was just a show.*

*Norway ultimately decided to purchase the US-made Joint Strike Fighter/F-35 combat aircraft in a deal reportedly worth 55 billion kronor ($7.9 billion).
*

At the time, Norway's choice of the American plane over the Gripen angered a former Saab executive.

"We are really surprised about how this was handled, what happened yesterday, and about the justification," Jan Nygren, who served as Saabs deputy CEO until two years prior to the decision, told the TT news agency at the time.

"And besides, we are just a tad surprised to say the least that they so unabashedly chose to criticize the Gripen, despite the fact that all of us involved know that the Gripen is a better fit for the functional demands laid out in the documentation included in the proposal request."

*According to Aftonbladet, the United States threw a spanner in the works of the Gripen deal by stopping the export of an American-made radar component for use on the Swedish plane.*

The prelude to the snub included a 2008 meeting between Swedens defence minister Sten Tolgfors and the US ambassador at the time, Michael Wood.

*During the meeting, Tolgfors asked for permission to buy the American-made Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar system for the Gripen. *

But documents released by WikiLeaks describe how the Americans worked to scuttle the Swedes radar request.

*We suggest that we delay the decision about the ASEA-permit for the Gripen until after Norways decision, read one US diplomatic cable, according to Aftonbladet.*

The newspaper writes that the US embassy in Oslo also placed a call for help to Washington for assistance in putting high-level political pressure on Norway following negative reports about the F-35 in the Norwegian press.

After the call, prospects for the F-35 brightened; Norwegian politicians gave signals that made the United States confident its plane would win the Norwegian tender. But the Americans were careful not to claim that the aircraft purchase was a done deal before Norway announced its decision.

We must continue to act like an honourable and elegant competitor, read a cable from the US embassy in Oslo.

We dont offer reviews of WikiLeaks documents or embassy reports, said Mikael Östlund, a spokesperson for Swedish defence minister Tolgfors, to the TT news agency.

TT/The Local/dl (news@thelocal.se)

Sweden 'tricked' in failed Norway Gripen bid - The Local

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## rockstarIN

*Defective Fuel Readings Led Pilot To Ditch Fighter Jet*

PARIS - The Rafale F3 strike fighter that was ditched into the sea Nov. 28 off the Pakistan coast suffered from defective fuel information, the spokesman for the French Ministry of Defense said Dec. 2.

An initial debriefing of the pilot who ejected from the Rafale established that the defect created inaccurate fuel-level readings, spokesman Laurent Teisseire told journalists. A team from the accident inquiry board is on its way to the Charles de Gaulle carrier, from which the Navy Fleet Air Arm Rafale was operating.

Related Topics
Europe
Asia & Pacific Rim
Air Warfare
"An inquiry is underway," Teisseire said, adding that it is too early to say what were the technical causes behind the incident.

The Rafale was armed for a close air support mission and headed for the Afghan theater in a patrol with Super Etendard Moderrnis&#233; aircraft.

The Rafale pilot was returning to the carrier to change aircraft when he was forced to eject and ditch the aircraft at 8 a.m. Paris time on Nov. 28. A helicopter picked up the pilot within 10 minutes of hitting the water. The pilot was unharmed.

The Super Etendard and Rafale between them have flown about 110 hours, just over half by Rafales, since the Charles de Gaulle arrived on station Nov. 25 to support ground troops in Afghanistan, said Army Col. Thierry Burkhard, the spokesman for the chief of the Defense Staff.

This is the first loss of a Rafale in operational deployment, and the fourth overall. The other three Rafales were lost under different circumstances while flown in training. The first accident, in December 2007, led to the death of the pilot. In the second accident, December 2009, two Rafales collided in midair. The accident enquiry reports have not yet been published.

President Nicolas Sarkozy is due to arrive in India on Dec. 4 for a two-day visit, accompanied by Defense Minister Alain Jupp&#233;. The visit is expected to promote the Rafale as a candidate in India's international competition for 126 medium multirole combat aircraft. 

The Dassault Rafale is up against the Boeing F/A-18, Eurofighter Typhoon, Saab Gripen, Lockheed Martin F-16 and RAC MiG-35.


----------



## dbc

BENNY said:


> *Sweden 'tricked' in failed Norway Gripen bid​*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sweden was deceived by both the United States and Norway regarding the latters interest in signing a multi-billion kronor deal to buy Sweden's JAS Gripen fighter plane.
> 
> Citing US diplomatic cables recently released by WikiLeaks, the Aftonbladet newspaper *reports that Norways supposed interest in the Gripen was just a show.*
> 
> *Norway ultimately decided to purchase the US-made Joint Strike Fighter/F-35 combat aircraft in a deal reportedly worth 55 billion kronor ($7.9 billion).
> *
> 
> At the time, Norway's choice of the American plane over the Gripen angered a former Saab executive.
> 
> "We are really surprised about how this was handled, what happened yesterday, and about the justification," Jan Nygren, who served as Saabs deputy CEO until two years prior to the decision, told the TT news agency at the time.
> 
> "And besides, we are just a tad surprised to say the least that they so unabashedly chose to criticize the Gripen, despite the fact that all of us involved know that the Gripen is a better fit for the functional demands laid out in the documentation included in the proposal request."
> 
> *According to Aftonbladet, the United States threw a spanner in the works of the Gripen deal by stopping the export of an American-made radar component for use on the Swedish plane.*
> 
> The prelude to the snub included a 2008 meeting between Swedens defence minister Sten Tolgfors and the US ambassador at the time, Michael Wood.
> 
> *During the meeting, Tolgfors asked for permission to buy the American-made Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar system for the Gripen. *
> 
> But documents released by WikiLeaks describe how the Americans worked to scuttle the Swedes radar request.
> 
> *We suggest that we delay the decision about the ASEA-permit for the Gripen until after Norways decision, read one US diplomatic cable, according to Aftonbladet.*
> 
> The newspaper writes that the US embassy in Oslo also placed a call for help to Washington for assistance in putting high-level political pressure on Norway following negative reports about the F-35 in the Norwegian press.
> 
> After the call, prospects for the F-35 brightened; Norwegian politicians gave signals that made the United States confident its plane would win the Norwegian tender. But the Americans were careful not to claim that the aircraft purchase was a done deal before Norway announced its decision.
> 
> We must continue to act like an honourable and elegant competitor, read a cable from the US embassy in Oslo.
> 
> We dont offer reviews of WikiLeaks documents or embassy reports, said Mikael Östlund, a spokesperson for Swedish defence minister Tolgfors, to the TT news agency.
> 
> TT/The Local/dl (news@thelocal.se)
> 
> Sweden 'tricked' in failed Norway Gripen bid - The Local



I'm a bit puzzled by this story, I thought Gripen's AESA was Italian made by Finmeccanica unit of Selex Galileo?


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## SpArK

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> I'm a bit puzzled by this story, I thought Gripen's AESA was Italian made by Finmeccanica unit of Selex Galileo?





> Saab had previously requested that the US approve a Raytheon-made active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar -- a key upgrade as the non-stealthy Gripen competed against the stealthy, Northrop Grumman AESA-equipped F-35 in Norway. Because the AESA was American technology, the US was not obligated to release the radar to a foreign competitor.




Wikileaks shows US played AESA trick on Gripen in Norway - The DEW Line


----------



## dbc

rockstar said:


> *Defective Fuel Readings Led Pilot To Ditch Fighter Jet*
> 
> PARIS - The Rafale F3 strike fighter that was ditched into the sea Nov. 28 off the Pakistan coast suffered from defective fuel information, the spokesman for the French Ministry of Defense said Dec. 2.
> 
> An initial debriefing of the pilot who ejected from the Rafale established that the defect created inaccurate fuel-level readings, spokesman Laurent Teisseire told journalists. A team from the accident inquiry board is on its way to the Charles de Gaulle carrier, from which the Navy Fleet Air Arm Rafale was operating.
> 
> Related Topics
> Europe
> Asia & Pacific Rim
> Air Warfare
> "An inquiry is underway," Teisseire said, adding that it is too early to say what were the technical causes behind the incident.
> 
> The Rafale was armed for a close air support mission and headed for the Afghan theater in a patrol with Super Etendard Moderrnisé aircraft.
> 
> The Rafale pilot was returning to the carrier to change aircraft when he was forced to eject and ditch the aircraft at 8 a.m. Paris time on Nov. 28. A helicopter picked up the pilot within 10 minutes of hitting the water. The pilot was unharmed.
> 
> The Super Etendard and Rafale between them have flown about 110 hours, just over half by Rafales, since the Charles de Gaulle arrived on station Nov. 25 to support ground troops in Afghanistan, said Army Col. Thierry Burkhard, the spokesman for the chief of the Defense Staff.
> 
> This is the first loss of a Rafale in operational deployment, and the fourth overall. The other three Rafales were lost under different circumstances while flown in training. The first accident, in December 2007, led to the death of the pilot. In the second accident, December 2009, two Rafales collided in midair. The accident enquiry reports have not yet been published.
> 
> President Nicolas Sarkozy is due to arrive in India on Dec. 4 for a two-day visit, accompanied by Defense Minister Alain Juppé. The visit is expected to promote the Rafale as a candidate in India's international competition for 126 medium multirole combat aircraft.
> 
> The Dassault Rafale is up against the Boeing F/A-18, Eurofighter Typhoon, Saab Gripen, Lockheed Martin F-16 and RAC MiG-35.



Wait a minute, the pilot ejected because of _"inaccurate fuel-level readings"_, they should change his call sign to _'Major Dufus'_


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## Valiant_Soul

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Wait a minute, the pilot ejected because of _"inaccurate fuel-level readings"_, they should change his call sign to _'Major Dufus'_



Hmm...so you expect the pilot to continue flying when he is not sure how much fuel is left in the tank?


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## dbc

Valiant_Soul said:


> Hmm...so you expect the pilot to continue flying when he is not sure how much fuel is left in the tank?



You certainly don't abandon a 70m$ plane due to a defective gauge.
Typically, you pull the chord (eject) only when you've lost power in both engines - zero fuel. Until such, you increase altitude,radio for help and the carrier sends assistance. 

Plus, it's easy enough to estimate the amount of fuel you have left using other instruments in addition the Rafale is capable of buddy refueling, another Rafale could have been quickly reconfigured as a tanker and vectored, this is fairly routine on board US carriers.

There is more to it than one faulty fuel gauge.


----------



## rockstarIN

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> You certainly don't abandon a 70m$ plane due to a defective gauge.
> Typical, you pull the chord (eject) only when you've lost power in both engines - zero fuel. Until such, you increase altitude,radio for help and the carrier sends assistance.
> 
> Plus, it's easy enough to estimate the amount of fuel you have left using other instruments in addition the Rafale is capable of buddy refueling, another Rafale could have been quickly reconfigured as a tanker and vectored, this is fairly routine on board US carriers.
> 
> There is more to it than one faulty fuel gauge.



May be there is some chance for other reason..

But can be an another Rafale act as a tanker?


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## dbc

rockstar said:


> May be there is some chance for other reason..
> 
> But can be an another Rafale act as a tanker?



yes all Rafales can be configured as a tanker.


----------



## MST

BENNY said:


> *Sweden 'tricked' in failed Norway Gripen bid​*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sweden was deceived by both the United States and Norway regarding the latters interest in signing a multi-billion kronor deal to buy Sweden's JAS Gripen fighter plane.
> 
> Citing US diplomatic cables recently released by WikiLeaks, the Aftonbladet newspaper *reports that Norways supposed interest in the Gripen was just a show.*
> 
> *Norway ultimately decided to purchase the US-made Joint Strike Fighter/F-35 combat aircraft in a deal reportedly worth 55 billion kronor ($7.9 billion).
> *
> 
> At the time, Norway's choice of the American plane over the Gripen angered a former Saab executive.
> 
> "We are really surprised about how this was handled, what happened yesterday, and about the justification," Jan Nygren, who served as Saabs deputy CEO until two years prior to the decision, told the TT news agency at the time.
> 
> "And besides, we are just a tad surprised to say the least that they so unabashedly chose to criticize the Gripen, despite the fact that all of us involved know that the Gripen is a better fit for the functional demands laid out in the documentation included in the proposal request."
> 
> *According to Aftonbladet, the United States threw a spanner in the works of the Gripen deal by stopping the export of an American-made radar component for use on the Swedish plane.*
> 
> The prelude to the snub included a 2008 meeting between Swedens defence minister Sten Tolgfors and the US ambassador at the time, Michael Wood.
> 
> *During the meeting, Tolgfors asked for permission to buy the American-made Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar system for the Gripen. *
> 
> But documents released by WikiLeaks describe how the Americans worked to scuttle the Swedes radar request.
> 
> *We suggest that we delay the decision about the ASEA-permit for the Gripen until after Norways decision, read one US diplomatic cable, according to Aftonbladet.*
> 
> The newspaper writes that the US embassy in Oslo also placed a call for help to Washington for assistance in putting high-level political pressure on Norway following negative reports about the F-35 in the Norwegian press.
> 
> After the call, prospects for the F-35 brightened; Norwegian politicians gave signals that made the United States confident its plane would win the Norwegian tender. But the Americans were careful not to claim that the aircraft purchase was a done deal before Norway announced its decision.
> 
> We must continue to act like an honourable and elegant competitor, read a cable from the US embassy in Oslo.
> 
> We dont offer reviews of WikiLeaks documents or embassy reports, said Mikael Östlund, a spokesperson for Swedish defence minister Tolgfors, to the TT news agency.
> 
> TT/The Local/dl (news@thelocal.se)
> 
> Sweden 'tricked' in failed Norway Gripen bid - The Local



I don't see much wrong in this. Americans own the technology (AESA) and they can choose to give it or not esp when it concerns a competition from their own country and $7B.



> *reports that Norways supposed interest in the Gripen was just a show.*



I am afraid once the MMRCA results are out in March 2011 some contenders may accuse India of a similar thing.


----------



## SpArK

*NFO E1 - The sequence of events that led to the disappearance of the aircraft near Pakistan.*

A Burst, based on the aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle airport, crashed into the sea Sunday, off Pakistan. According to information gathered by Europe 1, a series of technical and human factors that would cause the crash. The pilot was unharmed but the body of the device lies between 2,500 and 3,000 meters at the bottom of the sea

The aircraft had taken off on a war mission, in support of ground troops deployed in Afghanistan. The pilot, a military veteran, would have seen less than ten minutes after taking off a warning light to signal an abnormal fuel, an incident that should never have led to the loss of the aircraft. But the pilot would have preferred a precautionary measure to end its mission and make a U-turn in the direction of Charles de Gaulle.

*The additional tanks would not have been dropped*

For some reason, the aircraft would not however been able to put down immediately. Since the procedure required before a landing, the pilot would be freed of much of its fuel, starting with additional content in the tanks, using a special button "dump". A quick drain caused by the opening of valves on the canisters, valves that are not designed to be closed after use. The fuel system of the aircraft becomes tight if we dropped the famous additional tanks, the pilot did not do.

*But shortly after, malfunction or misinterpretation of data, the pilot would have finally realized that it was almost dry. As expected in this case, it would have received assistance from a "nanny", a Super Etendard used as in-flight refueling.*

Except that the valves being left open, while kerosene would immediately transferred out of the plane up. Out of fuel and seeing its engines shut down, the pilot was left with no choice but to eject. It has been found safe and sound.

*The acoustic beacon of the aircraft spotted?*

An investigation has been launched to determine the exact circumstances of this accident which took place about ten miles from the aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle. A team from the Accident Investigation Bureau is particularly air-defense come on site. Reportedly, the acoustic beacon Rafale was heard by one of two naval frigates Group.

This incident comes as France is still engaged in negotiations to sell abroad the Rafale, manufactured by Dassault Aviation. The new French Defence Minister, Alain Juppe, had hoped last week of "good news" from Brazil where a contract for 36 aircraft is still on the table.



Comment un Rafale s'est abîmé en mer - Europe1.fr - France

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## SpArK

MST said:


> I don't see much wrong in this. Americans own the technology (AESA) and they can choose to give it or not esp when it concerns a competition from their own country and $7B.
> 
> 
> 
> I am afraid once the MMRCA results are out in March 2011 some contenders may accuse India of a similar thing.



The Norway competition is an old one.Things have changed..

F-35 Lightning II Wins Dogfight in Norway


----------



## Valiant_Soul

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> You certainly don't abandon a 70m$ plane due to a defective gauge.
> Typically, you pull the chord (eject) only when you've lost power in both engines - zero fuel. Until such, you increase altitude,radio for help and the carrier sends assistance.



I am not sure that they are meant to wait till the engines completely seize. Altitude, yes, that is great indication and I am sure the pilot must have taken that into consideration.



> Plus, it's easy enough to estimate the amount of fuel you have left using other instruments in addition the Rafale is capable of buddy refueling, another Rafale could have been quickly reconfigured as a tanker and vectored, this is fairly routine on board US carriers.



Buddy refueling, when you are not aware how much time (fuel) you have left? I am not so sure about that.



> There is more to it than one faulty fuel gauge.



Likely, may be the report is not so accurate.


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## sancho

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> I'm a bit puzzled by this story, I thought Gripen's AESA was Italian made by Finmeccanica unit of Selex Galileo?



Now, but the Norway competition was long ago and in that time, not even the config of the Gipen NG Demonstrator was cleared. It first flew with the Thales RBE 2 AESA radar prototype, till Dassault (who is a share holder of Thales) pressured them to reject it, at least that is what is known from the French side. Saab said that they decided not to go with Thales and searched for another partner and interestingly they evaluated ELTA and their 2052 AESA radar, especially for the MMRCA competition. But according to Israeli reports, this time the US pressured ELTA not join with Saab, because it could effect the chances of US fighters in the competition. 




rockstar said:


> May be there is some chance for other reason..
> 
> But can be an another Rafale act as a tanker?



Last 2 pics:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/682646-post1365.html

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## kingdurgaking

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> You certainly don't abandon a 70m$ plane due to a defective gauge.
> Typically, you pull the chord (eject) only when you've lost power in both engines - zero fuel. Until such, you increase altitude,radio for help and the carrier sends assistance.
> 
> Plus, it's easy enough to estimate the amount of fuel you have left using other instruments in addition the Rafale is capable of buddy refueling, another Rafale could have been quickly reconfigured as a tanker and vectored, this is fairly routine on board US carriers.
> 
> There is more to it than one faulty fuel gauge.



logically makes sense... i also think there is some other issue because 
the pilots will be dare devils and wont be that much scared to death


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## dbc

kingdurgaking said:


> logically makes sense... i also think there is some other issue because
> the pilots will be dare devils and wont be that much scared to death



Seems like a combination of pilot error and instrument fault.
Mistakes happen, I remember reading about an F-14 Tomcat that fell off the carrier into the ocean because it wasn't properly secured.





> For some reason, the aircraft would not however been able to put down immediately. Since the procedure required before a landing, the pilot would be freed of much of its fuel, starting with additional content in the tanks, using a special button "dump". A quick drain caused by the opening of valves on the canisters, valves that *are not designed to be closed after use*



But this is definitely a design flaw..

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## GORKHALI

Viewing cable 09BRASILIA634, *BRAZIL'S FIGHTER PURCHASE: ENDGAME STRATEGY*
If you are new to these pages, please read an introduction on the structure of a cable as well as how to discuss them with others. See also the FAQs

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* The top box shows each cables unique reference number, when and by whom it originally was sent, and what its initial classification was.
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If you find meaningful or important information in a cable, please link directly to its unique reference number. Linking to a specific paragraph in the body of a cable is also possible by copying the appropriate link (to be found at theparagraph symbol). Please mark messages for social networking services like Twitter with the hash tags #cablegate and a hash containing the reference ID e.g. #09BRASILIA634.
Reference ID Created Released Classification Origin
09BRASILIA634 2009-05-19 16:04 2010-12-05 05:05 SECRET//NOFORN Embassy Brasilia

VZCZCXRO8264
RR RUEHRG
DE RUEHBR #0634/01 1391639
ZNY SSSSS ZZH
R 191639Z MAY 09
FM AMEMBASSY BRASILIA
TO RUEHC/SECSTATE WASHDC 4328
RUEKJCS/SECDEF WASHDC
RHEHNSC/NSC WASHDC
INFO RUEHFR/AMEMBASSY PARIS 0490
RUEHSM/AMEMBASSY STOCKHOLM 0075
RUEHRG/AMCONSUL RECIFE 9551
RUEHRI/AMCONSUL RIO DE JANEIRO 7753
RUEHSO/AMCONSUL SAO PAULO 4071
RUCPDOC/DEPT OF COMMERCE WASHDC
RUEKJCS/JOINT STAFF WASHDC
RHMFISS/CDR USSOUTHCOM MIAMI FL

S E C R E T SECTION 01 OF 03 BRASILIA 000634 

NOFORN 
SIPDIS 

STATE FOR WHA AND PM 

E.O. 12958: DECL: 05/19/2019 
TAGS: PREL MASS ETTC BR
SUBJECT: BRAZIL'S FIGHTER PURCHASE: ENDGAME STRATEGY 

REF: A. BRASILIA 216 
&#182;B. BRASILIA 41 

Classified By: Charge d'Affaires Lisa Kubiske. Reason: 1.4(d) 

&#182;1. (S/NF) SUMMARY AND ACTION REQUEST. With two months 
remaining before the Government of Brazil decides on a next 
generation fighter aircraft, the U.S. competitor, Boeing's 
F18 Super Hornet is still perceived by many Brazilians in and 
outside the GOB as a likely second or even third-place 
finisher, despite having the best aircraft and best offset 
package. Most Brazilian contacts tell us that they do not 
believe the USG is supporting the sale strongly, raising 
doubts in their minds about our long term reliability as a 
partner. Between now and July, there will be several 
opportunities to assure the Brazilians at senior levels that 
the USG will be behind the sale. Paragraphs 3-7 below 
contain proposed steps to address key Brazilian concerns and 
maximize chances for selection of the U.S. competitor. Among 
these steps, high level contacts, especially by the President 
and Secretary will be critical to overcome the perception of 
a lack of U.S. support. We also need to underscore our 
assurances that technology transfer has been approved and 
highlight the superiority of Boeing's proposal to that of its 
French competitor. As noted reftels, Embassy believes State 
will play a critical role in roviding assurances that will be 
essential to a winning bid. END SUMMARY. 

&#182;2. (S/NF) As the FX2 competition moves into its final 
stages, the U.S. has a strong offer from Boeing for the F18 
Super Hornet that comes with a huge package of industrial 
cooperation and a competitive overall cost. While we can be 
confident that the Super Hornet would be Brazil,s choice 
based on its superior capabilities and attractive offset 
package, it still has no better than a fifty/fifty chance of 
success because of political support for the French 
competitor and a lingering belief among some Brazilian 
leaders that a close relationship with the U.S. may not be to 
Brazil,s advantage. Winning the FX2 endgame, therefore, 
will depend on an effective strategy to overcome our 
political disadvantages and allow the Super Hornet,s 
superiority be the deciding factor. Such a strategy must 
address several key issues: 

Perception of a lack of USG support 
----------------------------------- 

&#182;3. (S/NF) With the French sale effort being managed directly 
from President Sarkozy,s cabinet and ongoing Swedish 
engagement on the Ministerial level, the USG is perceived by 
most Brazilians as lukewarm at best in its support for the 
FX2 sale. This is a critical disadvantage in a Brazilian 
society that depends on personal relationships as a 
foundation for business. The difficulty is exacerbated by 
the separation between government and industry in the United 
States. We cannot, for example, offer government financing 
to support a state owned company as can our competitors. To 
address this problem, high level contacts will be essential, 
particularly from the Department of State which is assumed by 
the Brazilian Air Force to be restrictive of mil-mil 
ooperation. In such contacts, U.S. officials will need to 
highlight expanding U.S.-Brazil partnership and how 
cooperation with the United States as Brazil modernizes its 
obsolescent military will not only provide the best 
operational capabilities, but will enhance our overall 
cooperation. This is why we have been forward leaning in 
approving transfers of technology in support of this sale. 
In addition to taking advantage of the near-term 
opportunities for high level contacts presented by MOD 
Jobim,s May 20 visit to Washington And Secretary Clinton,s 
possible visit to Brazil in late May, Embassy believes that 
phone calls between Presidents Obama and Lula, between NSA 
Jones and Presidential Foreign Affairs Advisor Marco Aurelio 
Garcia, and between SecDef Gates and MOD Jobim, would boost 
our case significantly. 

Tech Transfer 
------------- 

&#182;4. (S/NF) Although the major decisions to approve the 

BRASILIA 00000634 002 OF 003 


transfer of technology for the FX2 sale have been made, 
Brazilian leaders continue to doubt U.S. ability to follow 
through. While the problem has been mitigated by an 
effective public affairs strategy, we still hear that, absent 
specific high level State Department assurances, the 
Brazilians cannot be sure. It may well be that the 
Brazilians want to keep tech transfer doubts alive in order 
to have a ready-made excuse for buying an inferior plane, 
should political leaders decide to do so. Repeated concerns 
about unreleasable source code could have a similar basis. 
Finally, we have heard that there are concerns on Capitol 
Hill about the possibility of a South American arms race. 
Should these reach Brazilian ears, there will be additional 
worries that Congress will intervene to block the sale. 
Embassy recommends the following as next steps to strengthen 
our case on tech transfer: 

-- An advocacy letter from President Obama to President Lula 
-- A letter from Secretary Clinton to MOD Jobim stating that 
the USG has approved the transfer of all appropriate 
technology. 
-- Interagency guidance on source code (cleared for April 
Revista Forca Area article) should be disseminated for use. 
-- All high-level contacts, including by Secretaries of 
State and Defense and POTUS should include reassurance that 
tech transfer has been approved. 
-- Washington agencies should begin consultations with 
appropriate Hill staff as early as possible to overcome 
misperceptions that arms sales to Brazil could be 
destabilizing. 

Financing 
--------- 

&#182;5. (S/NF) U.S. inability to offer government financing or 
guarantees puts the Super Hornet at a significant 
disadvantage to its competitors. EXIM is prohibited from 
engaging in sales of defense articles, leaving Brazil to 
depend on commercial financing at higher rates. According to 
Washington agencies, it would be possible to seek 
Congressional relief for EXIM to support the sale. This has 
been done in the past on rare occasions. The Brazilian Air 
Force finance office has told us that even a statement that 
we are willing to seek such legislative action would be 
considered a positive sign. Embassy recommends that 
Washington explore the possibility of legislative action to 
allow EXIM Financing and respond by the May 29 deadline to 
the GOB request to provide information on government 
financing options. 

Making the Case 
--------------- 

&#182;6. (S/NF) We have been successful in getting across the 
points that the Super Hornet is a highly capable aircraft, 
and now need to focus on the broader picture -- how 
partnership on the fighter sale will yield benefits for both 
sides both in military terms and in economic benefits. As 
the world,s largest aerospace company, Boeing is able to 
offer a much greater scope of opportunities for Brazilian 
industry, including some outside of the FX2 offset program. 
The early June visit of Brazilian legislators to Washington 
will be an opportunity to get the message to political 
leaders. By focusing on key Senators, we have the 
opportunity to bring on board individuals who can influence 
the decision makers and ensure that the people who will have 
to approve spending Brazilian government money understand 
that the F18 offers them the best value. Embassy will 
continue to highlight tech transfer and Expand our message 
to include economic benefits to Brazil of the Boeing 
proposal. We also recommend the following: 

-- Make an expert on the aerospace industry available for 
interview to highlight economic health of Boeing compared to 
its competitors. 
-- Use visit of Brazilian Congress to drive home message 
that partnership with the U.S. entails benefits to both sides 
that go well beyond offset program. Ensure that Brazilian 
Senators understand significantly lower life 
cycle costs of the Super Hornet. 

BRASILIA 00000634 003 OF 003 


-- Arrange for an interview of the SecDef, or other senior 
Administration representative, with a prominent Brazilian 
journalist to underline importance of U.S.-Brazilian 
partnership and how the FX2 sale will help. 

Attack the French Bid 
--------------------- 

&#182;7. (S/NF) Although the French offer a less capable fighter 
at a higher cost, the Rafale has been the presumptive winner 
since the inception of the FX2 competition. While the 
technical evaluations of the aircraft should result in a 
significant advantage for the Super Hornet, we need to take 
steps to erode the French political edge. While a major 
element of this will be highlighting Boeing,s lower cost, 
there are several other measures that can make a case against 
the French. The first step will be to remind the Brazilians 
that their interest in the Rafale was driven by an assumption 
that the United States would not release technology. Since 
we have approved release of the relevant technology, we 
should ask if Brazil still needs the French as a safety. 
Over the last few months, the French sales effort has been 
based on a misleading, if not fraudulent, claim that their 
plane involves only French content (rendering it free of 
meddlesome U.S. export controls). This is not the case. A 
DTSA analysis found a high level of U.S. content, including 
targeting systems, radar components and safety systems that 
will require U.S. licenses. Next steps: 

-- Although it does not appear that the tech data provided 
with the French bid violated ITAR regs, PM/DDTC and DTSA 
should continue to monitor French marketing to ensure 
Dassault does not skirt ITAR restrictions. 
-- Investigate India,s decision to drop the Rafale from its 
fighter competition to see if there is a reason that would 
make the aircraft less attractive to Brazil. 
-- Ensure the Brazilians are aware that we expect to be 
issuing retransfer licenses for U.S.-origin components on the 
French plane and have already approved transfer of some 
technical data. 

KUBISKE

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## MST

Any sound bytes on Rafale? Sarkozy in town and only thing in focus is the nuclear deal. Nothing on Rafale. Have the French given up on MMRCA


----------



## dbc

kapoor said:


> Viewing cable 09BRASILIA634, *BRAZIL'S FIGHTER PURCHASE: ENDGAME STRATEGY*
> If you are new to these pages, please read an introduction on the structure of a cable as well as how to discuss them with others. See also the FAQs
> 
> Understanding cables
> Every cable message consists of three parts:
> 
> * The top box shows each cables unique reference number, when and by whom it originally was sent, and what its initial classification was.
> * The middle box contains the header information that is associated with the cable. It includes information about the receiver(s) as well as a general subject.
> * The bottom box presents the body of the cable. The opening can contain a more specific subject, references to other cables (browse by origin to find them) or additional comment. This is followed by the main contents of the cable: a summary, a collection of specific topics and a comment section.
> 
> To understand the justification used for the classification of each cable, please use this WikiSource article as reference.
> 
> Discussing cables
> If you find meaningful or important information in a cable, please link directly to its unique reference number. Linking to a specific paragraph in the body of a cable is also possible by copying the appropriate link (to be found at theparagraph symbol). Please mark messages for social networking services like Twitter with the hash tags #cablegate and a hash containing the reference ID e.g. #09BRASILIA634.
> Reference ID Created Released Classification Origin
> 09BRASILIA634 2009-05-19 16:04 2010-12-05 05:05 SECRET//NOFORN Embassy Brasilia
> 
> VZCZCXRO8264
> RR RUEHRG
> DE RUEHBR #0634/01 1391639
> ZNY SSSSS ZZH
> R 191639Z MAY 09
> FM AMEMBASSY BRASILIA
> TO RUEHC/SECSTATE WASHDC 4328
> RUEKJCS/SECDEF WASHDC
> RHEHNSC/NSC WASHDC
> INFO RUEHFR/AMEMBASSY PARIS 0490
> RUEHSM/AMEMBASSY STOCKHOLM 0075
> RUEHRG/AMCONSUL RECIFE 9551
> RUEHRI/AMCONSUL RIO DE JANEIRO 7753
> RUEHSO/AMCONSUL SAO PAULO 4071
> RUCPDOC/DEPT OF COMMERCE WASHDC
> RUEKJCS/JOINT STAFF WASHDC
> RHMFISS/CDR USSOUTHCOM MIAMI FL
> 
> S E C R E T SECTION 01 OF 03 BRASILIA 000634
> 
> NOFORN
> SIPDIS
> 
> STATE FOR WHA AND PM
> 
> E.O. 12958: DECL: 05/19/2019
> TAGS: PREL MASS ETTC BR
> SUBJECT: BRAZIL'S FIGHTER PURCHASE: ENDGAME STRATEGY
> 
> REF: A. BRASILIA 216
> ¶B. BRASILIA 41
> 
> Classified By: Charge d'Affaires Lisa Kubiske. Reason: 1.4(d)
> 
> ¶1. (S/NF) SUMMARY AND ACTION REQUEST. With two months
> remaining before the Government of Brazil decides on a next
> generation fighter aircraft, the U.S. competitor, Boeing's
> F18 Super Hornet is still perceived by many Brazilians in and
> outside the GOB as a likely second or even third-place
> finisher, despite having the best aircraft and best offset
> package. Most Brazilian contacts tell us that they do not
> believe the USG is supporting the sale strongly, raising
> doubts in their minds about our long term reliability as a
> partner. Between now and July, there will be several
> opportunities to assure the Brazilians at senior levels that
> the USG will be behind the sale. Paragraphs 3-7 below
> contain proposed steps to address key Brazilian concerns and
> maximize chances for selection of the U.S. competitor. Among
> these steps, high level contacts, especially by the President
> and Secretary will be critical to overcome the perception of
> a lack of U.S. support. We also need to underscore our
> assurances that technology transfer has been approved and
> highlight the superiority of Boeing's proposal to that of its
> French competitor. As noted reftels, Embassy believes State
> will play a critical role in roviding assurances that will be
> essential to a winning bid. END SUMMARY.
> 
> ¶2. (S/NF) As the FX2 competition moves into its final
> stages, the U.S. has a strong offer from Boeing for the F18
> Super Hornet that comes with a huge package of industrial
> cooperation and a competitive overall cost. While we can be
> confident that the Super Hornet would be Brazil,s choice
> based on its superior capabilities and attractive offset
> package, it still has no better than a fifty/fifty chance of
> success because of political support for the French
> competitor and a lingering belief among some Brazilian
> leaders that a close relationship with the U.S. may not be to
> Brazil,s advantage. Winning the FX2 endgame, therefore,
> will depend on an effective strategy to overcome our
> political disadvantages and allow the Super Hornet,s
> superiority be the deciding factor. Such a strategy must
> address several key issues:
> 
> Perception of a lack of USG support
> -----------------------------------
> 
> ¶3. (S/NF) With the French sale effort being managed directly
> from President Sarkozy,s cabinet and ongoing Swedish
> engagement on the Ministerial level, the USG is perceived by
> most Brazilians as lukewarm at best in its support for the
> FX2 sale. This is a critical disadvantage in a Brazilian
> society that depends on personal relationships as a
> foundation for business. The difficulty is exacerbated by
> the separation between government and industry in the United
> States. We cannot, for example, offer government financing
> to support a state owned company as can our competitors. To
> address this problem, high level contacts will be essential,
> particularly from the Department of State which is assumed by
> the Brazilian Air Force to be restrictive of mil-mil
> ooperation. In such contacts, U.S. officials will need to
> highlight expanding U.S.-Brazil partnership and how
> cooperation with the United States as Brazil modernizes its
> obsolescent military will not only provide the best
> operational capabilities, but will enhance our overall
> cooperation. This is why we have been forward leaning in
> approving transfers of technology in support of this sale.
> In addition to taking advantage of the near-term
> opportunities for high level contacts presented by MOD
> Jobim,s May 20 visit to Washington And Secretary Clinton,s
> possible visit to Brazil in late May, Embassy believes that
> phone calls between Presidents Obama and Lula, between NSA
> Jones and Presidential Foreign Affairs Advisor Marco Aurelio
> Garcia, and between SecDef Gates and MOD Jobim, would boost
> our case significantly.
> 
> Tech Transfer
> -------------
> 
> ¶4. (S/NF) Although the major decisions to approve the
> 
> BRASILIA 00000634 002 OF 003
> 
> 
> transfer of technology for the FX2 sale have been made,
> Brazilian leaders continue to doubt U.S. ability to follow
> through. While the problem has been mitigated by an
> effective public affairs strategy, we still hear that, absent
> specific high level State Department assurances, the
> Brazilians cannot be sure. It may well be that the
> Brazilians want to keep tech transfer doubts alive in order
> to have a ready-made excuse for buying an inferior plane,
> should political leaders decide to do so. Repeated concerns
> about unreleasable source code could have a similar basis.
> Finally, we have heard that there are concerns on Capitol
> Hill about the possibility of a South American arms race.
> Should these reach Brazilian ears, there will be additional
> worries that Congress will intervene to block the sale.
> Embassy recommends the following as next steps to strengthen
> our case on tech transfer:
> 
> -- An advocacy letter from President Obama to President Lula
> -- A letter from Secretary Clinton to MOD Jobim stating that
> the USG has approved the transfer of all appropriate
> technology.
> -- Interagency guidance on source code (cleared for April
> Revista Forca Area article) should be disseminated for use.
> -- All high-level contacts, including by Secretaries of
> State and Defense and POTUS should include reassurance that
> tech transfer has been approved.
> -- Washington agencies should begin consultations with
> appropriate Hill staff as early as possible to overcome
> misperceptions that arms sales to Brazil could be
> destabilizing.
> 
> Financing
> ---------
> 
> ¶5. (S/NF) U.S. inability to offer government financing or
> guarantees puts the Super Hornet at a significant
> disadvantage to its competitors. EXIM is prohibited from
> engaging in sales of defense articles, leaving Brazil to
> depend on commercial financing at higher rates. According to
> Washington agencies, it would be possible to seek
> Congressional relief for EXIM to support the sale. This has
> been done in the past on rare occasions. The Brazilian Air
> Force finance office has told us that even a statement that
> we are willing to seek such legislative action would be
> considered a positive sign. Embassy recommends that
> Washington explore the possibility of legislative action to
> allow EXIM Financing and respond by the May 29 deadline to
> the GOB request to provide information on government
> financing options.
> 
> Making the Case
> ---------------
> 
> ¶6. (S/NF) We have been successful in getting across the
> points that the Super Hornet is a highly capable aircraft,
> and now need to focus on the broader picture -- how
> partnership on the fighter sale will yield benefits for both
> sides both in military terms and in economic benefits. As
> the world,s largest aerospace company, Boeing is able to
> offer a much greater scope of opportunities for Brazilian
> industry, including some outside of the FX2 offset program.
> The early June visit of Brazilian legislators to Washington
> will be an opportunity to get the message to political
> leaders. By focusing on key Senators, we have the
> opportunity to bring on board individuals who can influence
> the decision makers and ensure that the people who will have
> to approve spending Brazilian government money understand
> that the F18 offers them the best value. Embassy will
> continue to highlight tech transfer and Expand our message
> to include economic benefits to Brazil of the Boeing
> proposal. We also recommend the following:
> 
> -- Make an expert on the aerospace industry available for
> interview to highlight economic health of Boeing compared to
> its competitors.
> -- Use visit of Brazilian Congress to drive home message
> that partnership with the U.S. entails benefits to both sides
> that go well beyond offset program. Ensure that Brazilian
> Senators understand significantly lower life
> cycle costs of the Super Hornet.
> 
> BRASILIA 00000634 003 OF 003
> 
> 
> -- Arrange for an interview of the SecDef, or other senior
> Administration representative, with a prominent Brazilian
> journalist to underline importance of U.S.-Brazilian
> partnership and how the FX2 sale will help.
> 
> Attack the French Bid
> ---------------------
> 
> ¶7. (S/NF) Although the French offer a less capable fighter
> at a higher cost, the Rafale has been the presumptive winner
> since the inception of the FX2 competition. While the
> technical evaluations of the aircraft should result in a
> significant advantage for the Super Hornet, we need to take
> steps to erode the French political edge. While a major
> element of this will be highlighting Boeing,s lower cost,
> there are several other measures that can make a case against
> the French. The first step will be to remind the Brazilians
> that their interest in the Rafale was driven by an assumption
> that the United States would not release technology. *Since
> we have approved release of the relevant technology, we
> should ask if Brazil still needs the French as a safety.
> Over the last few months, the French sales effort has been
> based on a misleading, if not fraudulent, claim that their
> plane involves only French content (rendering it free of
> meddlesome U.S. export controls). This is not the case. A
> DTSA analysis found a high level of U.S. content, including
> targeting systems, radar components and safety systems that
> will require U.S. licenses. Next steps:
> *
> -- Although it does not appear that the tech data provided
> with the French bid violated ITAR regs, PM/DDTC and DTSA
> should continue to monitor French marketing to ensure
> Dassault does not skirt ITAR restrictions.
> -- Investigate India,s decision to drop the Rafale from its
> fighter competition to see if there is a reason that would
> make the aircraft less attractive to Brazil.
> -- Ensure the Brazilians are aware that we expect to be
> issuing retransfer licenses for U.S.-origin components on the
> French plane and have already approved transfer of some
> technical data.
> 
> KUBISKE



..please read the highlighted text, I have repeatedly said that the Rafale is not free of US Export controls.


----------



## !!craft!!

looks like India is giving a piece of cake to everyone, wont be surprised if the gripen or euro fighter gets the mmrca.. looking at the complications in getting gripen i recon the weight has definitely shifted toward eurofighter..


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## sancho

MST said:


> Any sound bytes on Rafale? Sarkozy in town and only thing in focus is the nuclear deal. Nothing on Rafale. Have the French given up on MMRCA



When Obama was here, did you hear anything about the F18SH? MMRCA will be discussed during all these visits for sure, but only behind closed doors, because all the vendors and their countries will now give their final round of bids before the shortlisting. Not to mention that GoI will use these visits to get more advantages too!
The recent media reports about EF and Rafale leading the race, IAF not favouring US fighters (although at least the earlier don't seems to be very reliable), surly had put some more pressure on the Boeing and the Obama administration.



Death.By.Chocolate said:


> ..please read the highlighted text, I have repeatedly said that the Rafale is not free of US Export controls.



Please, not that again! Even they are talking only about "components", while still all major parts of it, be it radar, engine, EWS, or weapons are developed in France/Europe! 

Btw, the wikileakes pointed out some other things too:



> *FAB presses for purchase of U.S. aircraft, documents say*
> 
> The dispute over the sale of 36 fighter jets to the Brazilian Air Force mobilized to pressure U.S. authorities to the commander of the Air Force, Juniti Saito and Defense Minister Nelson Jobim, to intervene in the choice of an American model, reveal documents released by WikiLeaks site on Sunday (5)...
> 
> ...*Preference*
> In another letter, it reported a conversation the commander of the Air Force, Juniti Saito, with former U.S. Ambassador Clifford Sobel, indicating that the Brazilian would prefer the U.S. model to the French. "We flew on American equipment for decades and we know who is trustworthy and that their maintenance is simple and offers good money through foreign military sales system," said the statement attributed to Saito.
> 
> Saito also would request a letter committing the U.S. to transfer technology to Brazil. In a telegram signed by former ambassador, he reports he told the commander that the letter was in the final stages of approval. Relieved, Saito said he needed to hand the letter on August 6. [...] That was the clearest expression of that Saito is to recommend that the F-18," he said.



G1 - EUA pressionam FAB por compra de avião americano, dizem documentos - notícias em Mundo


So much for FAB prefers Gripen NG like you claimed, based on the fake media report! 

Don't you find it interesting too, that the whole leak of the US embassy talks only about Rafale as a competitior, while not a single word is said about Saab, or Gripen NG? All they say, or recommend are tactics to counter French political advantages (btw I find it funny that you now have to find counter tactics against political advantages  ), as well Dassaults ToT offer, but nothing about Saab! They must be pretty sure about that Brazil won't choose the Gripen don't you think? And now take a guess why? 
It's getting pretty obvious these days how dependent Saab, or better the Gripen is on the US and that they really can't do anything against it (Norway, deal Israeli radar).


----------



## typhoon77

> Don't you find it interesting too, that the whole leak of the US embassy talks only about Rafale as a competitior, while not a single word is said about Saab, or Gripen NG? All they say, or recommend are tactics to counter French political advantages (btw I find it funny that you now have to find counter tactics against political advantages ), as well Dassaults ToT offer, but nothing about Saab!


 Not really, this is just one cable that was released. There could/probably are other unreleased cables that talk about SAAB and the Gripen. I find it hard to believe that the US would be willing to transfer as much tech as the French. The Rafale will probably come out on top at the end of all this drama. Jobim and Lula prefer it to the hornet.


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## salman77

How much longer before IA choses its MRCA.


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## Hulk

salman77 said:


> How much longer before IA choses its MRCA.



3.5 months left. March 2011 it will be decided.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## dbc

sancho said:


> Please, not that again! Even they are talking only about "components", while still all major parts of it, be it radar, engine, EWS, or weapons are developed in France/Europe!



..is it too difficult for you to understand? Allow me to dumb it down for you. The only reason Dassault have used US origin components in the "targeting systems, radar components and safety systems" as per US Defense Technology Security Administration is because it couldn't source those components locally or regionally (within Europe).

This shouldn't really surprise anyone, several key components of Rafale are sourced externally.For instance, titanium parts for Rafale's M88 engine is sourced from TITAL Germany.Can these titanium parts be machined in France? Probably - but can a local vendor achieve the same quality and efficiency as TITAL while remaining cost competitive - probably not? 



> Parallel to the Eurofighter commitment, TITAL is seeing positive business developments in the engine sector. Currently the investment casting specialist casts, machines and *assembles titanium castings for the M88 engine which is used in the supersonic transport Rafale manufactured by the French company Dassault*.



TITAL GmbH established as Supplier for Engine Manufacturer | TITAL&#174; - The very best in castings

As a matter of fact, several key Rafale components are sourced from Britain, Switzerland, Italy,Germany,Spain and the United States.

Now if Germany refuses to export the parts needed by Rafale's M88 engine to Brazil the aircraft will remain in the hangar until France is able to invest billions in developing single crystal blades of the exact specifications required by its M88 engine to replace the 'components' previously manufactured by TITAL. Considering this how is Dassault marketing the Rafale as an 'Independent Choice" - isn't it fraudulent as claimed by the leaked memo?

*Single Crystal Blades of the M88 is just one component but denial of this one small component will halt the Rafale program. The spark plug in your car is one very small component but without it your car is useless.* 
As for the claim of complete transfer of technology, why will TITAL agree to transfers its sensitive production and casting technology to Brazil or India? What's in it for TITAL? A firm that has spent billions of dollars over several years to develop the technology.
TITAL itself uses US origin technology in its manufacturing process, how can Dassault promise full ToT on US tech?

I hope you now understand that even small components that go into larger subsystems of high performance military fighters are critical. Without these 'components' the aircraft will remain in the hangar, a liability for its operators. With the possible exception of the United States and Russia no other nation can claim independence from foreign suppliers.

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## Bagee

*The eurofighter have beaten what is considered the new top US fighter, the F22! *
"more recently, there have been repeated reports that two RAF Typhoons deployed to the USA for OEU trails work have been flying against the F-22 at NAS China Lake, and have peformed better than was expected. There was little suprise that Typhoon, with its world-class agility and high off-boresight missile capability was able to dominate "Within Visual Range" flight, but the aircraft did cause a suprise by getting a radar lock on the F22 at a suprisingly long range. The F-22s cried off, claiming that they were "unstealthed" anyway, although the next day´s scheduled two vs. two BWR engagement was canceled, and "the USAF decided they didn´t want to play any more .

- When this incident was reported on a website frequented by front-line RAF aircrew a senior RAF officer urged an end to the converstaion on security grounds"


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## typhoon77

> The eurofighter have beaten what is considered the new top US fighter, the F22!
> "more recently, there have been repeated reports that two RAF Typhoons deployed to the USA for OEU trails work have been flying against the F-22 at NAS China Lake, and have peformed better than was expected. There was little suprise that Typhoon, with its world-class agility and high off-boresight missile capability was able to dominate "Within Visual Range" flight, but the aircraft did cause a suprise by getting a radar lock on the F22 at a suprisingly long range. The F-22s cried off, claiming that they were "unstealthed" anyway, although the next day´s scheduled two vs. two BWR engagement was canceled, and "the USAF decided they didn´t want to play any more .


 
The raptors were definitely carrying drop tanks or something that increases the RCS. They never do exercises without them. So the F-22 locks the typhoons got would never have happened in a real BVR fight.


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## luckyyy

typhoon77 said:


> *The raptors were definitely carrying drop tanks or something that increases the RCS. *They never do exercises without them. So the F-22 locks the typhoons got would never have happened in a real BVR fight.



why not design a drop tank to reduse RCS , or simply drop the tanks when nearing a opponent fighter..


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## typhoon77

> why not design a drop tank to reduse RCS , or simply drop the tanks when nearing a opponent fighter..


 I think you missed what i was saying. F-22's always fly with those humongous drop tanks when conducting exercises with foreign air forces. This way no foreign airforce knows the real RCS value for the Raptor. Yeah the Typhoon detected it but that was when the RCS went up several magnitudes. 
If not the drop tanks I know they use some sort of passive sensor that has the same effect on the RCS.


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## MKI 30

*Rafale* -


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## IND151

i want IAF to choose rafale.


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## FSLN

IND151 said:


> i want IAF to choose rafale.



Wikileaks Cablegate : Indian air force had decided to drop French Rafale from MMRCA comptetions | Frontier India - News, Analysis, Opinion
NOT gonna happen.........


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## ashdoc

IND151 said:


> i want IAF to choose rafale.





FSLN said:


> Wikileaks Cablegate : Indian air force had decided to drop French Rafale from MMRCA comptetions | Frontier India - News, Analysis, Opinion
> NOT gonna happen.........



i have read that the RBE-2 radar of the rafale has a detection range of only 100 km . 

france has not bothered to have a long range for the rafale's radar because it has AWACS which will give it the position of the target by data-link .

but india can hardly afford to have an aircraft with such a low range of radar . even the pakisatani f-16 block 52s have a radar with range of 300 km .

how come the indians are even considering this aircraft if its radar's range is so low ??


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## indushek

ashdoc said:


> i have read that the RBE-2 radar of the rafale has a detection range of only 100 km .
> 
> france has not bothered to have a long range for the rafale's radar because it has AWACS which will give it the position of the target by data-link .
> 
> but india can hardly afford to have an aircraft with such a low range of radar . even the pakisatani f-16 block 52s have a radar with range of 300 km .
> 
> how come the indians are even considering this aircraft if its radar's range is so low ??



Are u sure about the range of 300 km about F-16 block52?? 

This plane has a AN/APG-68 radar is a pulse-doppler radar with 200km range. This radar replaced the erstwhile AN/APG-66 radar with a range of 150km.


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## Bagee

typhoon77 said:


> I think you missed what i was saying. F-22's always fly with those humongous drop tanks when conducting exercises with foreign air forces. This way no foreign airforce knows the real RCS value for the Raptor. Yeah the Typhoon detected it but that was when the RCS went up several magnitudes.
> If not the drop tanks I know they use some sort of passive sensor that has the same effect on the RCS.


what about the aesa on board f 22 remember typhoon do not have one


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## typhoon77

> what about the aesa on board f 22 remember typhoon do not have one


 I don't really understand, what you are trying to ask? The typhoon will have an AESA. It will by 2015,the prototype has already been developed.


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## angeldemon_007

I think aesa is the requirement for MMRCA deal. AESA is already build for Rafale and its already being tested. EUfighter will also have to provide aesa if they want to win.


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## angeldemon_007

I think typhoon will win. They are offering a very good deal plus the diplomatic advantage on selecting typhoon. This deal now revolves around world politics, a couple of billion $ won't matter.
Even rafale F4, now equipped aesa will be a very good choice but french offer is not so attractive. Eurofighter on the other hand are ready to make India as their 5th partner and even ready to transfer some production from Germany to India.
While if see the actual deal, its the Gripen NG. India cannot get any other deal like Saab's. Gripen is even cheaper, and i think NG is also available in 2 engine. But Saab won't win because of no political gain. 

Does anybody knows whether IAF have tested Gripen NG ??/ During the trials Saab didn't send the NG version which is actually offered to India.


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## truthseeker2010

The problem that I see with EF is the cost over runs that has experienced by European defense procurement not only on EF program but also on others. But yes the decision will be heavily influenced by politics rather than technical perimeters.


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## angeldemon_007

> The problem that I see with EF is the cost over runs


What exactly is the price offered to India in mmrca deal by eurofighter ?/ I m asking this because there are many price theories going on, on the web. Even on wiki its different. According to wiki its affordable. According to the highest price that i have seen in the various forums, 11-12 billion dollars. Any1 who has the exact prices plz do share along with the source.

But now new prices will be offered. If India plays well, the prices may fall down. But if we look at the world market of fighter planes, the price of the whole deal might get raised by 1-1.5 billion dollar, but hey it does not matter to indian politicians and beaurocrats.


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## sudhir007

Detail of missile in MRCA

http://www.vayuaerospace.in/images1/M-MRCA-The_contending_missiles.pdf


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## Bagee

typhoon77 said:


> I don't really understand, what you are trying to ask? The typhoon will have an AESA. It will by 2015,the prototype has already been developed.



i am saying that when those f 22 where doing there dog fights with typhoon where were those asea radars why ere they not able t detect typhoons earlier than typhoons


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## SpArK

*PM heading to Berlin, Germany to pitch for Eurofighter​*
NEW DELHI: Germany is set to sharpen its pitch for selling Eurofighter Typhoon combat jets to India when Prime Minister Manmohan Singh goes to Berlin next month, a day-long trip that will focus on expanding the strategic relationship between the two would-be non-permanent members of the UN Security Council. 

Manmohan Singh is expected to fly to Berlin Dec 11 for a day-long visit after attending India's summit with the 27-nation European Union (EU) in Brussels. 

This will be the second visit by Manmohan Singh to Berlin since he became the country's prime minister over six years ago. 

Manmohan Singh and Merkel met recently at the G20 summit of major and emerging economies in Seoul. A bilateral visit by Manmohan Singh to Germany has been in the making for some time, but it was only last week it was decided to include a day-long visit to Berlin to the prime minister's itinerary that was earlier confined to a stand-alone visit to Brussels for the India-EU summit. 

Manmohan Singh and Merkel, who enjoy a special chemistry, are expected to focus on expanding defence relationship and enlarging the scope of their strategic dialogue on key global issues like UN reforms, the international financial crisis, counter-terrorism, non-proliferation and climate change. 

The UN reforms will be a key item on agenda, a senior official, who did not wish to be names, told IANS. 

Significantly, the meeting between Manmohan Singh and Merkel will take place barely weeks before India and Germany join the UN Security Council as non-permanent members Jan 1, 2011. "This explains the focus on a dialogue over big-picture global issues," said the official. 

Both countries are in favour of unity among G-4 countries (India, Brazil, Japan and Germany) to realise their collective quest for permanent seats on an expanded United Nations Security Council (UNSC), a point that was made forcefully by German ambassador to India Thomas Matussek recently. 

Germany, on its part, is set to make a renewed pitch for the Eurofighter project at a time when the contest for a $10.4 billion tender for supplying 126 fighter aircraft to India is intensifying by the day. 

*Germany will contend that the Eurofighter offer is unique as it involves technology transfer and is likely to stress that it is ready to forgo the End-User Monitoring Agreement (EUMA) that even India's close partners like the US insist on, an informed source disclosed.* 

Early this week, the German envoy outlined the attractions of the Eurofighter Typhoon at a speech at the Indian Council for World Affairs. "We are here for the long haul...We are even forgoing the End-User Monitoring Agreement (EUMA) and offering complete transfer of technology. We would like India to work closely with us in the future development of the aircraft," he had said. 

Germany, which is leading the Eurofighter consortium of several leading defence giants in Europe including EADS and BAE Systems , is hoping that India takes a favorable decision on the Eurofighter by the *time Merkel comes here in the summer next year*, the source disclosed. 

The Eurofighter Typhoon will be competing against the US F/A-18 Super Hornet and F-16IN Super Viper, Sweden's Gripen, France's Rafale and Russia's MiG-35 to win the Indian Air Force's medium multi-role combat ircraft (MMRCA) project, touted as the mother of all defence deals. 

Britain, Germany, Spain and Italy have come together to pitch for the Typhoon. British Defence Secretary Liam Fox extolled the Typhoon during his visit to India, saying it performed brilliantly in the field trials conducted by the IAF.


PM heading to Berlin, Germany to pitch for Eurofighter - The Economic Times

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## kingdurgaking

BENNY said:


> *PM heading to Berlin, Germany to pitch for Eurofighter​*
> *Germany will contend that the Eurofighter offer is unique as it involves technology transfer and is likely to stress that it is ready to forgo the End-User Monitoring Agreement (EUMA) that even India's close partners like the US insist on, an informed source disclosed.*



hmmm when is this new propaganda started ... "close partner"... if this is true.. then germany ta ta bye bye for EFT


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## SpArK

*RAF Dropping to 6 Fast-Jet Units​*






_A BRITISH ROYAL Air Force Typhoon F2 flies in close formation with a RAF Tornado F3. (Courtesy of U.K. Ministry of Defence)
_


LONDON - Britain may halve its fast-jet fleet by 2020 or so, according to the commanding officer of the Royal Air Force's No. 1 Group.

*"We are heading for five Typhoon squadrons and one JSF [Joint Strike Fighter] squadron,"* said Air Vice-Marshal Greg Bagwell, who commands the RAF's air combat group. "It will be a six-squadron world; that's what's on the books."


*That could mean 107 Typhoons, plus about 40 F-35C JSFs that support a large operational squadron of 20 to 25 crews, Bagwell said.
*


Typhoon numbers could be clipped even further if Britain and Oman seal a deal to send the Persian Gulf nation about a squadron's worth of aircraft. The planes could be diverted from an existing RAF order; the question is whether they will then later be replaced, he said.

In 1990, the RAF had 33 fast-jet squadrons; in 2003, 17. Today, the number stands at 12: seven Tornado, three Typhoon and two Harrier squadrons, plus the offensive firepower of a growing fleet of Reaper UAVs.

By April, Britain will be down to eight fast-jet squadrons, thanks to the retirement of the Harriers and the shelving of two Tornado units.

The Tornado force has already been eroded by a covert 2009 order from the previous Labour administration to cut the number of crews in each squadron. But that number is expected to return to its previous level next year as squadrons are eliminated and crews shift around.

Those cuts, and others, were ordered by an October decision to ax defense spending over the next four years as part of a wider government plan to reduce public borrowing levels. The cuts bit deep into RAF capabilities; other reductions hit battlefield surveillance, maritime reconnaissance, helicopter transport and other capabilities.

"Six squadrons is the low point for the U.K.'s fast jet fleet," one analyst said. "You can expect that to recover a little as the Ministry of Defence bolsters its force of Joint Strike Fighters beyond the current level mandated in the new strategic defense and security review."

Bagwell was less sanguine. He called the first JSF squadron a "start point" and said more may come, but for the moment, "I expect a single squadron in 2020 and that's it."

Other senior RAF officers have said they aim eventually to operate around 100 F-35Cs, which will split their time operating from land bases and from the new Queen Elizabeth-class aircraft carriers being built for the Royal Navy.

Bagwell said the fast-jet cuts were challenging but manageable so long as the RAF is not tasked to do much more than its current deployments: Tornados to the NATO effort in Afghanistan, and Typhoons to quick reaction alert (QRA) forces in Britain and the Falkland Islands.

"Am I happy to be down at that number [eight squadrons] next April? No, it worries the hell out of me because it's a small combat air force," he said. "I can just about do Op Herrick [Afghanistan] and the QRAs. Can I do other things? Yes, but it is at risk.

"Actually, I am more worried about what other people think I can do tomorrow," he said. "The whole thing about procurement and posture is as much about long-term future deterrence and keeping the enemy on the back foot as it is about physically fighting. The deterrence and coercive effect of air power has somehow got lost in the noise."

*TYPHOON QUESTIONS*

Bagwell said the RAF would likely ax its 55 Tranche 1 Typhoons by mid-decade because it would cost too much to bring them up to the required multirole standards offered by Tranche 2 and Tranche 3. That would mean the RAF Typhoon fleet would top out at 107 machines.

But the Typhoon fleet could shrink even further, Bagwell said.

*The "great unknown in the plans is the awful lot of potential export customers," he said.
*

The proposed deal with Oman is in the final stages of negotiation; discussions are now underway about where those dozen or so aircraft might come from. *The RAF's Typhoon force could fall further if the planes are diverted from the Air Force's order and are not replaced.*

Difficulties in Britain's 72-plane sale to Saudi Arabia are creating more uncertainty. The first 24 are being diverted from the RAF's Tranche 2 order, and the service is to get more Tranche 3 aircraft instead. The other 48 are to be assembled in Saudi Arabia as part of an effort to build up local industry.

But industry sources said the plan has run into difficulties that raise questions about how Britain will fill the Saudi order.

Bagwell said options could include taking additional aircraft from the RAF production run and replacing them later.

"Should we get the buybacks out of Saudi Arabia and Oman as planned, we will be back to the number of Typhoons I need," he said. "At the moment, if I don't get the [Omani] buyback and this is under discussion ... it could take me down to 95 aircraft."

He said any changes to RAF deliveries would affect the service's ability to train crews.

A spokesman for BAE Systems, which is helping to build the aircraft, said he couldn't comment on Saudi issues.

Bagwell also revealed:

&#9632; *The 2011 planning round could change the timing of the upgrade of Typhoon jets to a full multirole aircraft. Dubbed the Future Capabilities Program 2, it will allow the jets to carry Storm Shadow, Brimstone and other weapons.*

&#9632; The decision to switch the planned purchase of short-takeoff, vertical-landing F-35Bs to the conventional carrier C version will give the Air Force a true deep-penetration capability.

&#9632; The Sentinel R1 surveillance capability, to be axed by the government after the Afghanistan war, could be replaced through programs like the Scavenger UAV and new active electronically scanned array radars on Typhoon and JSF.

&#9632; The 2011 planning round may speed up creation of the final two Typhoon squadrons, now slated for 2015, by as much as a year.

Bagwell told reporters that the date on which the RAF hits six squadrons would depend in part on Ministry of Defence decisions about the drawdown of the Tornado strike aircraft as Typhoons arrive.

"We still need to hold on to a portion of the Tornado force, and it will be a very important decision for the next defense review [expected in 2015] as to how the crossover is achieved between Typhoon and Tornado," he said. "My gut instinct is that we will need at least two or three Tornado squadrons at the 2017 point, keeping the squadron numbers at the six to eight figure."

The Tornado fleet is currently scheduled to retire in 2021. The government recently announced a reduction in the number of Tornados required to sustain ongoing operations, known as force elements, from 40 to 18 by 2015.

Elizabeth Quintana, head of air power and technology at the Royal United Services Institute, said she didn't think air power suffered worse in the cuts than many other sectors.

"The benefit is that unlike the Army [spared the worst of the cuts due to the war in Afghanistan], the Air Force now knows what its configuration is going to look like in the 2017-2020 timeframe," she said. "Where aircraft numbers are going in the future and what impact unmanned combat air vehicles might have is too early to say. F-35 and Typhoon give you more capable platforms but with fewer numbers."

She noted that synthetic training will reduce the number of aircraft kept off the front lines.


RAF Dropping to 6 Fast-Jet Units - Defense News

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## sancho

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> ..is it too difficult for you to understand? Allow me to dumb it down for you. The only reason Dassault have used US origin components in the "targeting systems, radar components and safety systems" as per US Defense Technology Security Administration is because it couldn't source those components locally or regionally (within Europe).



That's what you claim, but the Eurocanards use US components, for the same reasons why export customers prefer US weapons, because they can be produced cheaper and in higher numbers. The difference is, that Gripen uses critical US parts like the engine (instead of EJ 200 that was offered too), while EF and Rafale uses only minor parts from the US. 



> Although it does not appear that the tech data provided
> with the French bid violated ITAR regs, PM/DDTC and DTSA
> should continue to monitor French marketing to ensure
> Dassault does not skirt ITAR restrictions.



Didn't you read this part of the cable? Because it shows, although Dassault is officially offering clearly more ToT to Brazil than the US, they did not violate any US restrictions and that is the crucial point! They developed the main techs on their own and cann offer all critical ToT, without any chance of the US to pressure like they did in the Gripen often. 




Death.By.Chocolate said:


> ...As a matter of fact, several key Rafale components are sourced from Britain, Switzerland, Italy,Germany,Spain and the United States.
> 
> Now if Germany refuses to export the parts needed by Rafale's M88 engine to Brazil the aircraft will remain in the hangar until France is able to invest billions in developing single crystal blades of the exact specifications required by its M88 engine to replace the 'components' previously manufactured by TITAL. Considering this how is Dassault marketing the Rafale as an 'Independent Choice" - isn't it fraudulent as claimed by the leaked memo?



It's getting better and better, now you claim that Germany, the closest political partner of France, would sanction them? 

The European countries are working more and more together, to get rid of exactly these dependence and restrictions of the US, so no matter what you claim, they will not pose sanctions on each other.

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## sancho

ashdoc said:


> i have read that the RBE-2 radar of the rafale has a detection range of only 100 km .
> 
> france has not bothered to have a long range for the rafale's radar because it has AWACS which will give it the position of the target by data-link .
> 
> but india can hardly afford to have an aircraft with such a low range of radar . even the pakisatani f-16 block 52s have a radar with range of 300 km .
> 
> how come the indians are even considering this aircraft if its radar's range is so low ??



Please check your sources once more, because you are claiming many wrong facts here. RBE 2 is available as a PESA radar and now in the RBE 2 AA AESA radar also, the range is expected (no official specs available) clearly above PAFs F16s, but below F16 B60.
The 300Km range that you mentioned is not for fighter size targets, otherwise it would be even superior to MKIs Bars.
You possibly confused the detection of ships, or big aircrafts here.
Btw, Pakistan has even more AWACS than we have, so by your logic they shouldn't bother about their fighter radars too right? Dassault optted for a smaller radar size than actually could be possible, in favour of other detection sensors of the FSO. They focused on passive detection, than on active, because active radars can be detected way earlier. 



BENNY said:


> *RAF Dropping to 6 Fast-Jet Units​*...



So it gets more and more risky to join that consortium, because even the initial partners are trying to back out of the development. Also interesting, a decision on Brimstone, or Storm Shadow (which means basically on Tranche 3 at all), if at all by somewhere in 2011 only. What once more tells us, that the capabilities of EF will depend on our decision to buy/fund it, or not. 

Btw, after Greece and Ireland, it is expected that Portugal and Spain must be bailed out, because their dept is increasing too much and it is rumoured that Italy could follow. So after UK that axed their budgets, the next 2 EF partners might follow.

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## sancho

I found this interesting article on the Rafale international website of the Brazilian competiton, which confirms what I said earlier about the techs and foreign components in Rafale once again:

(Google translated)



> *Rafale International clarifies information about the French proposal in the FX-2*
> 
> Brasilia, November 12, 2009 - The French Rafale International consortium, formed by the Dassault Aviation, Snecma and Thales, conference held on the afternoon of Thursday to clarify the public information that does not correspond to reality and what has been disclosed in recent weeks on the French proposal in the FX-2, the selection process of the Brazilian Government for the purchase of new fighter aircraft of the FAB...
> 
> ...On the origin of components and technologies: All technologies are 100% Rafale French Rafale International consortium and does not need permission from any country to sell them.
> 
> *It must be noted that components are not the same as technologies.* For components, there are over 100 000 in one game. Yes there are parts of other countries in the Rafale, as well as the other two competitors, *in the case of the Rafale, they were selected for economic reasons and everyone can be replaced.*...
> 
> 
> ...On technology transfer, the Rafale International consortium strengthens the proposal that the Rafale provides unrestricted transfer of technology and already approved, including the critical, Brazil. The industrial cooperation program of the French proposal is well founded, with agreements signed with 39 companies for 68 projects and partnerships with the Federal University of Rio de Janeiro and the ITA.
> 
> *Following French law, the authorization for the transfer of technology was granted by the executive before the French Rafale enter the contest and no longer depends on any new permit, unlike the U.S. where there is a need for approval by the U.S. legislature.* The authorization of the U.S. Congress that has been disclosed is a pre-authorization, which will still be reviewed and may be vetoes, on the occasion of periodic reviews, as did the sale of F-16 missiles to Chile. No known restrictions on how the U.S. can affect the transfer of technology from the Gripen.
> 
> It is noteworthy that this particular project, due to the strategic partnership between Brazil and France, offering the Rafale incorporates a transfer *of critical technology* in an unprecedented scale.
> 
> The first six aircraft will be built in France with Brazilian participation, to ensure the learning industry and fast delivery of the first fighters to FAB. The remaining 30 fighters will be assembled in Brazil, with production of parts being transferred gradually to the Brazilian industry, reaching 50% in the thirty-sixth aircraft and certainly increase if Brazil expand the program...



:. RAFALE .:


Once again:

- all techs are French, which means developed by French companies and what allows them to sell them without any foreign approval

- foreign components are procured for economic reasons and can be replaced

- ToT includes critical techs and don't need further approvals

- 50% of the Rafales parts will be build in Brazil itself, when the order of 36 fighters will be finished and could (now consider an order of at least 126 and how much we might build in India itself, especially when we could integrate Kaveri - Snecma engine!)


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## sancho

*First official reports about Cruzex V*







Crossposting from the MP forum:



> *Rafale 's first in Brazil
> 
> Air actualités , Dec 2010*
> 
> For the first time the Rafale crossed the equator!" says the General Dominique de Longvilliers Dominique, head of the French detachment. During Cruzex V, the Rafale participated in its first exercice in Brazil. Upon their arrival in Natal, the crew of Saint-Dizier had been given special attention, especially from the media. Lieutenant-Colonel Sebastien Michel gave dozens of interviews. "This media expectation is perfectly understandable", says the head of 1/91" Gascogne". Cruzex allowed the Rafale to demonstrate the range of its capabilities. *With 100% missions acomplished ,refuelling done , ground targets destroyed and no aircraft lost, its record was impressive.*The versatility and performances of the omnirole aircraft commanded admiration from everyone. "I've been able to notice that while I was flying on the backseat of one of our F-16s", told *the General MacNamara, chief of the Chilean detachment. "We have been beaten during a simulated air combat, while this is the strongpoint of our aircraft. It was impressive."* Less under the spotlight, the Mirage 2000-5 pilots have also demonstrated their expertise in air defense. "We did only escort missions and sweeps, explains Lieutenant-Colonel Vincent Coste , Commander of the 1/2 "Cigognes. We fought against enemy planes to clear the sky and allow the bombers to carry out their attacks (depth strikes , air-ground firing ...)".
> Mirage and Rafale: the mission is successful for the french crews.




The same Chilean General was interviewed by an Brazilian reporter too (google translated):



> *Posting in the Chilean Air CRUZEX V
> Word of the Commander
> Brigadier General Caesar Air Mac-Namara Manríquez
> 
> Journalist Roberto Caiafa
> Special Envoy CRUZEX*
> 
> The Brigadier General Caesar Air Mac-Namara Manríquez must assume his new duties in 2011 as Sub Chief of Joint Staff of the FACH, and be promoted to the rank of General Aviation. The decision has been approved by the President, Mr. Sebastian Pinera Echenique. This introduction aims to introduce readers to the Internet who is this brilliant young Chilean official aviator in one of his last statements before operating assume this new mission...
> 
> ...*How do you see the Chilean participation in CRUZEX and what the most positive things that can enumerate its Air Force to participate in this fifth edition of the multinational training?*
> 
> Participation in Chilean CRUZEX responds to an excellent relationship between Brazil and Chile, both politically and among the two peoples. On the operational side, this year presents us with two elements, one of them is to demonstrate our capabilities, as do five and a half hours flight from Iquique to Christmas (with two Revos - refueling), a long journey made by our fighters and transports perfect form, the other, enjoy each moment we have here in Brazil to operate in conjunction with the Brazilian Air Force and other air forces participating. The exchange that takes place in aspects such as differences in the operations of each aircraft, the interaction between the officers and many other details and transfers of knowledge, everything is very valid.
> 
> *F-16C / D Block 50 represents one of the top line of fighter aviation, in speaking of South America How do you evaluate your aircraft and its pilots face a 4th generation aircraft like the Rafale?*
> 
> V CUZEX this might have experience with the Mirage 2000-5 jet fighters (NE: type version that Peru intends to upgrade its Mirage) and the brand new Rafale. And we could prove in practice that we have a very good capacity. Our training and our weapons systems are at a level of technological development and operational protection.
> 
> *It is true that the Rafale is superior in some respects compared to the F-16 Block 50*, but the good response we received may be summarized as "with good training and good equipment can produce a yield very significant from an aircraft call 4th generation"




So the same Chilean (neutral) official confirms in 2 different interviews, that the Rafale (present version without AESA, or Meteor and for sure without showing full capabilities of SPECTRA) was superior to F16 B50 (PAFs F16s will be upgraded to the same level) in air combats during the exercise.

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## sathya

Tuesday, 14 December 2010
Moment of truth for defence offsets

By Ajai Shukla
Business Standard, 14th Dec 10

Tomorrow the MoD&#8217;s apex procurement body, the Defence Acquisition Council, will consider and possibly dilute India&#8217;s defence offset policy. The proposed changes --- especially the &#8220;liberalization&#8221; of defence offsets into fields like civil aviation and homeland security --- would nullify the very rationale of a defence offset policy, which is to direct foreign money and know-how into India&#8217;s nascent defence industry by leveraging our position as a major buyer in the global arms bazaar.

Global arms corporations quite predictably resist investing in another countries&#8217; defence industries: this builds up potential competitors; involves the painstaking and commercially risky task of identifying local partners; it transfers jobs overseas; defence remains a highly regulated field; and there are obvious strategic reasons as well. And so global arms corporations have a persuasive counter-argument that portrays offsets as unscrupulous commercial arm-twisting, which is counterproductive since it yields jobs only in the short term, with the costs borne by the buyer since the vendors load them onto the basic contract.

Foreign vendors selling weaponry to India have constructed an even more pernicious argument: that our defence industry is incapable of absorbing the vast offsets that will arise from arms purchases over the next five years. With a CII-Deloitte report in June projecting that the MoD will spend Rs 3,60,000 crore (US$ 80 billion) on the capital purchase of weaponry by 2015, India&#8217;s defence industry would be required to absorb at least Rs 108,000 crore (US$ 24 billion) worth of offsets. Therefore, suggest these vendors helpfully, the buyer should &#8220;liberalise&#8221; the policy by permitting offsets in easy fields like infrastructure, homeland security, healthcare, etc, where investment is attractive.

These self-serving arguments are, worryingly, being swallowed by the MoD, which is forgetting that it fire-walled the defence offset policy from the national offsets policy (which covers non-military procurements like civil airliners, nuclear plants, etc) expressly to jump-start Indian defence industry. To now allow vendors to discharge offset liabilities in non-defence spheres would be a turnaround that reeks of capitulation before foreign pressure groups.

Instead, the MoD must remind global arms vendors that, by participating in Indian defence tenders, they have explicitly accepted the obligation to meet our defence offset requirements. This places on vendors the responsibility to build the capacities of their local offset partners, if necessary by transferring the technology needed to develop Indian suppliers into viable links in their global supply chain.

Any difficulty that foreign vendors are encountering in finding Indian partners stems from a lazy reluctance to reach above the low-hanging fruit --- defence PSUs like Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd; Bharat Electronics; and large private corporates like L&T, and the Tata Group, which are already flush with offset offers --- and instead identify partners from amongst the many small and medium scale industries that have emerged over the last decade. The Indian defence landscape has an entire ecosystem of defence firms with impressive technological skills and entrepreneurial talent, many of them concentrated around hubs like Hyderabad, Bangalore, Pune, Chennai and Delhi. So far largely untapped, these provide partnership opportunities to global defence corporations that will endure long after their offset requirements are met.

Much of the government&#8217;s muddle-headedness on these issues stems from the absence of a clearly articulated aim for the defence offset policy. Consequently, Indian pressure groups lobby self-servingly: the DRDO pushes offsets for obtaining the 18 technologies that it has listed as key priorities; the IT industry as an opportunity to develop defence software; and low-tech manufacturing companies as an easy source of massive orders for low-end, labour-intensive, repeat manufacture.

To direct offsets into IT or repeat manufacture is wasteful, since these sectors will anyway attract foreign investment based on commercial logic. Nor should offsets be wasted on high technology, which is best prised out of vendors by leveraging the power of major contracts in competitive tendering. India&#8217;s US $10 billion multi-role fighter tender, in which the MoD has stipulated --- and vendors have accepted --- the transfer of heavily guarded AESA radar technology, provides the ideal model for obtaining technology.

Instead, offsets must have the clearly stated aim of furthering the defence minister&#8217;s oft-enunciated objective of indigenising at least 70&#37; of our defence equipment needs. The MoD must abandon its timid, hands-off approach towards offsets and direct vendors towards carefully identified Indian companies with demonstrated technological skills in key areas. Offset partnerships with global giants would allow such companies to bridge technology gaps and --- by becoming a part of the vendor&#8217;s global supply chain --- scale up and generate the financial muscle needed for serious R&D.

For this, the MoD must empower and staff its Defence Offsets Facilitation Agency (DOFA), so that it can map Indian defence industry, creating a capability and technology matrix that can be matched with prospective platform development requirements. Offsets could then be directed to fill the gaps. This would involve an enormous MoD mind shift from its current approach towards offsets where a man-and-a-dog DOFA plays passing-the-offsets-parcel with an equally reluctant Acquisitions Wing, both hoping that when the music stops the other will be left holding the responsibility for offsets.

The need for an activist and empowered DOFA has been understood by industry, if not by the MoD. The CII and FICCI had earlier pledged Rs 25 lakhs each to set up a DOFA secretariat at Pragati Maidan, which could monitor and account for the tens of thousands of crores worth of offsets that lay ahead. But, with trust in short supply, the MoD felt that the companies that would benefit from offsets should not have any role in accounting for them; and the corporates felt, &#8220;why should we do the babus&#8217; job for them?&#8221; It is time to come together to galvanise India&#8217;s defence industry.


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## SpArK

_*A U.S. Navy F/A-18 Hornet pilot positions the aircraft for refueling from a KC-10 Extender Nov. 25, 2010, over Southwest Asia. The KC-10 is with the 908th Expeditionary Air Refueling Squadron. (U.S. Air Force photo/Staff Sgt. Andy M. Kin)​*_


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## sudhir007

Indias MMRCA contract may force defence offsets policy change : Defense news

The Indian MoD may be forced to bring in an offsets multiplier clause in its defence offsets policy to conclude the estimated $10 billion procurement of 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA). At least two of the six bidders have demanded offset multipliers to bring in technology for fulfilling the 50% offsets amounting to about $5 billion.


The Indian MoD has started the process of a likely policy change by holding discussions with industry bodies such the Confederation of Indian Industry (CII) and the Associated Chambers of Commerce & Industry (ASSOCHAM). The discussions held last week between senior MoD officials dealing with procurement matters and the industry representatives were mixed with some in favor of a more liberal policy and others wanting a continuation of the present policy, industry sources told Defenseworld.net.

&#8220;The 50% offsets for the MMRCA cannot be fulfilled under the present policy of direct offsets&#8221;, said the industry source pointing out that international vendors have a pool of just about 160 companies including 9 government-owned firms to choose from as potential offset partners. From the private companies, only those which have been granted an industrial licence to manufacture a particular defence equipment or system can be partnered with.

India&#8217;s DPP holds out the possibility of bringing in offset multipliers. The present policy states, &#8220;the advisability of giving additional weights to offers having multiplier effects in terms of exports generated or building indigenous capability in strategic technology products, or other issues may be considered after reviewing the experience of implementing the above (existing) policy&#8221;.

For fulfilling the 50% direct offsets as per the MMRCA contract, international vendors would need to bring in high technology defence product manufacturing to India and find suitable partners to implement them. As things stand, private Indian firms are at the beginning of the defence equipment manufacturing curve and will take years before they are capable of executing an important sub-system of a fighter aircraft or armored vehicle. In the military aircraft domain, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) is the only option and here too it has limitations in areas such as engines.

In this context, a letter written by the aerospace and defence industry associations of the U.S., Canada, France, Germany and the U.K. in September to India&#8217;s defence minister A.K. Antony demanding the offsets multiplier clause besides other concessions gains significance. All the MMRCA bidders with the exception of the Russian Mikoyan MiG, are members of the associations which have authored the letter.

Offset multipliers will enable the MMRCA contract winner to partner with India&#8217;s Defence Research and Development Organzation (DRDO) to develop technology in areas which the DRDO is currently lacking in and claim multiplier effects. However, DRDO is not included in the list of Indian offset partners and the potential policy change may have to address this issue too.


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## SpArK

*Eurofighter Tranche 3​*




​
Tranche 3 Eurofighters will be the most capable aircraft in the 3rd stage program, which will incorporate full strike built in capabilities.Tranche 3 Eurofighters would be massively upgraded from the Tranche 1 and 2 versions. Eurofighter wants to convert the aircraft from a highly specialist air-to-air fighter into a multirole deep strike electronic warfare plane that is capable of locating and destroying any powerful enemy air-defence network.

It also would be incorporating an AESA radar. In 2008, EADS submitted a range of procurement options to the aircrafts launch customers like Britain, Germany, Italy and Spain with the intention of offering them flexibility by dividing promised Tranche 3 orders over time.

*The production version of the CAPTOR-E radar was being proposed as part of Tranche 3 of the Typhoon from 2012. Tranche 2 aircraft use the non AESA, mechanically scanned Captor-M which incorporates weight and space provisions for possible upgrade to CAESAR (AESA) standard in the future.

The Italian Air Force doubted that the AESA radar would be ready in time for Tranche 3 production.In July 2010, Eurofighter announced that the AESA radar would enter service in 2015.*


Eurofighter Tranche 3 | Defence Aviation


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## sudhir007

does it will make any fever of Rafale


> Talks with UAE ongoing to buy French Rafale jets
> 
> By admin at 16 December, 2010, 3:04 am
> 
> SOURCE : Reuters
> 
> Talks between the United Arab Emirates and France over the sale of French Rafale fighter jets are still ongoing despite recent tensions, the French president&#8217;s office said on Wednesday.
> 
> A senior French official told Reuters in early October that the United Arab Emirates had suspended talks to buy 60 Rafales, but Abu Dhabi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Zayed al-Nahyan and President Nicolas Sarkozy discussed the potential deal over lunch in Paris, an official at Sarkozy&#8217;s office said.
> 
> &#8220;The discussions have not been broken off,&#8221; he said.


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## SpArK

sudhir007 said:


> does it will make any *fever* of Rafale



Fever..?? for Rafale?

Then EFT will definitely have a dysentery.

Just kidding.


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## jha

sudhir007 said:


> does it will make any fever of Rafale





BENNY said:


> Fever..?? for Rafale?
> 
> Then EFT will definitely have a dysentery.
> 
> Just kidding.



OMG..one has fever other has Dysantry..

Go Gripen..I am with you..

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## SpArK

*Eurofighter Typhoon ZK380​*

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## prakash

^ nice one


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## deepakclaw

I feel 126 typhoon or Rafale looks kind a more mightier than 170+f18 (or) 
180+grippen


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## sancho

sudhir007 said:


> does it will make any fever of Rafale



Don't think so, because the problem is not the Rafale deal (they are willing to pay, if Dassault make some custom changes for them), but that the UAE asks for way more than just France to take over the M2K-9s and things that are not related to the military field. 

What I find more interesting in the regard of UAE is, that the RAF EFs that came to India for an exercise, also went to UAE, which could be a hint that they want to offer EF for them instead of Rafale too.
EF would be way better to put pressure on Dassault than the F18SH, because the SH offers not much more for them, that the F16 B60 already offers (US AESA radar, avionics, weapon package...). The Rafale is also the same weightclass like the F16s and both are meant mainly for strikes, while the EF is an air superiority fighter above the F16s and would be the better combo than Rafale/F16. The EF consortium for sure would offer UAE a custom version and UAE would be more than ready to pay for it. 

The partners are very desperate at the moment and UAE is a possible way out of their problems, will be interesting to see how France would react.


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## SpArK

*WikiLeaks: U.S. officials pushed Brazil to buy Boeing fighters​*

WASHINGTON &#8212; *Recently released confidential and secret cables show that U.S. diplomats have sought to help orchestrate the sale of about $4.4 billion worth of Boeing fighter jets to Brazil, but the French aerospace industry, a longtime Boeing nemesis, may have the inside track.*

The cables, released online by WikiLeaks, offer an inside look at how U.S. officials sometimes act as super-salesmen in promoting American products abroad. They also give a glimpse of the behind-the-scenes diplomatic intrigue that the United States, France and others engage in as they court such emerging powerhouse nations as Brazil.

Boeing is caught in the middle, as a simple sale of planes carries international ramifications. It's not an unusual position for Boeing and other major U.S. exporters to find themselves in.

Over the years, Boeing often has been a pawn in the U.S. relationship with China. When Chinese leaders are angry with the U.S., they place multibillion-dollar plane orders with France-based Airbus, Boeing's chief rival in the commercial jet market. When relations thaw, Boeing receives an order.

*In Brazil, Boeing's F/A-18 Super Hornet is competing with the Rafale, built by France's Dassault Aviation, and the Gripen, from Swedish company Saab AB.*

But according to the diplomatic cables, Boeing also was competing with French President Nicolas Sarkozy, whose "charm offensive" apparently had seduced Brazilian President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva. Lula has been an outspoken champion of the French Rafale, even though many in Brazil's military support an F/A-18 purchase.

One cable from the U.S. Embassy in Paris to the State Department said the Sarkozy-Lula relationship was a "love fest," with the French president using the fighter jet sale as a model for French entree into Latin America and beyond.

Brazil recently signed a $12 billion deal with the French for five submarines, including a nuclear one, and 50 helicopters, the cable noted. The subs will be built at a new shipyard in Brazil.

Sarkozy has been "courting populous nonaligned nations to extend French influence worldwide," and Brazil was a top priority, the cable said.

The cables are part of a WikiLeaks cache of more than 250,000 State Department documents, many of them classified secret or confidential, that are being posted gradually on the WikiLeaks website. So far, fewer than 2,000 of the documents have been made public.

Boeing declined to comment on the cables and its effort to sell F/A-18s in Brazil.

"This is a matter for the U.S. State Department that involves confidential government correspondence, and Boeing has no comment at this time," said Phil Carder, a Boeing spokesman in St. Louis, where the F/A-18s are built.

Defense analysts say the backroom diplomacy over the Brazilian fighter jet sale isn't unusual. U.S. firms such as Caterpillar and Intel sometimes find themselves in the same situation as Boeing.

"There is always some French guy in the alley handing out money," said Loren Thompson of the Lexington Institute, a northern Virginia national security research center. "It's easier for the French to sell in developing countries because they can be more flexible."

Brazil wants to buy 36 jet fighters, which it will call the FX2. The deal eventually could involve 100 planes. Announcement of the contract winner is expected early next year.

Brazil currently has 110 aging jet fighters to patrol 5 million square miles, including most of the Amazon Basin and a vast new offshore oil field, the cable from the Paris U.S. Embassy said. While it didn't call it a Latin American arms race, the cable noted that Chile has 29 advanced F-16s and Venezuela 24 modern Sukhoi 30s.

Referring to Venezuela's president, the cable said, "With Hugo Chavez recently buying over $3 billion in aircraft, tanks and assault weapons from Russia, Brazil also seeks to enhance its regional military capabilities."

As the competition heated up early last year, the U.S. Embassy in Brasilia urged high-ranking U.S. officials to become more involved and to press the case for the F/A-18. A cable to the State Department in early January 2009 noted that the only one buying the Rafale was the French air force.

"French representatives have tried to spin the Rafale's dismal performance in the global market to be the result of U.S. government political pressure rather than the aircraft's shortcomings," the cable said, adding that the FX2 decision will only "marginally be based on price and Brazil is most interested in using the purchase to bolster its domestic defense industry."

Several months later, another cable from the embassy in Brasilia warned that U.S. government support for the F/A-18 sale was "lukewarm at best," as the Rafale sale was being managed "directly" out of Sarkozy's Cabinet and support for the Gripen came from the ministerial level in Sweden.

"We need to take steps to erode the French political edge," the cable said.

The cable also said there were Brazilian concerns that even if the F/A-18 were selected, the State Department would block the sale because it involved the export of sensitive technology, and financing could become an issue because the U.S. Export-Import Bank can't finance defense sales.

By the summer of 2009, President Barack Obama had raised the issue with Lula, and other U.S. officials, including Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and James Jones, the national security adviser at the time, had weighed in with the Brazilians.

In the fall of 2009, with a visit to Brazil by Sarkozy looming, the U.S. Embassy in Brasilia was getting skittish again. Sarkozy had met with Lula four times in 2008, and in 2009 the two also held four meetings.

The Brazilians also were wondering whether the U.S. decision to block the sale of Embraer's Super Tucano to Venezuela because it carried sensitive U.S. technology was a sign that there would be problems with the export of F/A-18s. Embraer is Brazil's largest aerospace company, and the Super Tucano is a turboprop light attack aircraft.

By the beginning of this year, the Brazilians were expressing renewed interest in the F/A-18.

"There remains, however, the formidable obstacle of convincing Lula," said a January cable from the embassy in Brasilia.

The USS Carl Vinson, carrying a deck full of F/A-18 Super Hornets, arrived in Rio de Janeiro in February in what was seen as an effort by the U.S. to show off the Boeing jet fighter.

A cable in early February said the FX2 sale came up during a meeting between new U.S. Ambassador Thomas Shannon and Brazil's deputy foreign minister.

That's where the trail of WikiLeaks' released cables ends.



Read more: WikiLeaks: U.S. officials pushed Brazil to buy Boeing fighters | McClatchy


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## dbc

BENNY said:


> Defense analysts say the backroom diplomacy over the Brazilian fighter jet sale isn't unusual. U.S. firms such as Caterpillar and Intel sometimes find themselves in the same situation as Boeing.
> *"There is always some French guy in the alley handing out money," said Loren Thompson* of the Lexington Institute, a northern Virginia national security research center. "It's easier for the French to sell in developing countries because they can be more flexible."



I'm not surprised by this comment, recently Olivier Dassault approached the French National Assembly to legalize payment of commissions 'bribes' to secure arms contracts.He also made it known that it will be difficult to sell the Rafale internationally without the payment of commissions.




> Le d&#233;put&#233; UMP Olivier Dassault, fils du pr&#233;sident de Dassault Aviation Serge Dassault, se d&#233;clare favorable au paiement de commissions dans les contrats d'armement, pourtant interdites par l'OCDE.Dassault cherche depuis des ann&#233;es &#224; placer son avion de combat Rafale &#224; l'international, en vain pour l'instant.



Le d&#233;put&#233; UMP Olivier Dassault veut r&#233;tablir les commissions, actualit&#233; Economie : Le Point


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## sudhir007

Tech Transfer Issues Could Hold Up Indian Fighter Buy | AVIATION WEEK

Evidence is growing that the downselect decision for India&#8217;s Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) may not be announced until the fourth quarter of 2011, with the holdup centered on terms for technology transfer.

India requires that any aircraft or weapons system introduced into service successfully clear all tests, trials and evaluations. All the MMRCA candidates have completed user trials, including weapons validations, technical and maintenance evaluations. They are currently being evaluated on their proposals for industrial offsets, with technology transfer next up. Only when this process produces a short list will their commercial offers be evaluated.

Technology transfer terms must be completed with the main contract, a defense official explained. India requires that licensed production of the aircraft, including engines, accessories, radars, systems and tooling, be covered by the tech transfer proposal. The ministry holds refusal rights on any specific item and suppliers must provide full life-cycle product support.

The MMRCA contract will provide for 126 aircraft and is the largest military procurement pending in India. It has drawn bids based on the MiG-35, Dassault&#8217;s Rafale, Eurofighter, the Saab Gripen, Boeing&#8217;s F/A-18E/F and Lockheed Martin&#8217;s F-16.

Vendors, who were supposed to have their evaluations completed last April, have already been required to extend or revise their bids through next April because the selection process became bogged down. If the defense ministry is not able to complete its downselect process by then, vendors will have to resubmit their bids and another year&#8217;s delay will ensue.

That raises the prospect that swings in currency rates could significantly change the value of the bids, given that rates are determined not when bids are received but when the commercial evaluation begins.

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## SpArK

> holdup centered on terms for technology transfer.



Does that mean the Superbug is what on MoD's mind??


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## Ammyy

sudhir007 said:


> Technology transfer terms must be completed with the main contract, a defense official explained. *India requires that licensed production of the aircraft, including engines, accessories, radars, systems and tooling, be covered by the tech transfer proposal.* The ministry holds refusal rights on any specific item and suppliers must provide full life-cycle product support.



So American jet out from contest ???


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## Dash

One thing that surprises me that if we can make Su-30 MKI in India with tech transfer, what is the scene here?, Is west that advanced than Russians, then whats the fuss?


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## rockstarIN

^^
They might not want to give you the same..


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## sancho

DRDO said:


> So American jet out from contest ???



An interesting point indeed, because the US will allow the assembly of critical parts in India only, so if the licence production of the radar is required too, it will be a difficult hurdle for them.



Dash said:


> One thing that surprises me that if we can make Su-30 MKI in India with tech transfer, what is the scene here?, Is west that advanced than Russians, then whats the fuss?



It's about share of critical techs, especially AESA radars and latest avionics, the Europeans offers these, the Russians anyway, the issue here should be the US side mainly.


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## STAR SCREAM

http://asiandefenseupdates.blogspot.com/2010/12/jsf-lrip-iv-cost-targets-released.html

*SF LRIP IV Cost Targets Released*
By Amy Butler abutler@aviationweek.com
WASHINGTON







The Pentagon&#8217;s most recent per-unit target price for the conventional-takeoff-and-landing (CTOL) version of the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter is *$111.6 million*, according to program officials.
The target price for the short-takeoff-and-vertical-landing (Stovl) version, which has encountered the most challenging technical and testing problems, is *$109.4 million*, the F-35 Joint Program Office says. And the target cost for the most expensive variant &#8212; *the carrier version (CV) &#8212; is $142.9 million,* officials say.
The price data traditionally has not been publicly released, but the program office released these figures to Aviation Week in response to questions.
Neither price includes the cost of the Pratt & Whitney F135 engines; that contract is under negotiation. Based on the low-rate-initial-production (LRIP) III pricing, the average cost of a CTOL engine is about $19 million and the average Stovl engine and lift-fan system cost is about $38 million. Pratt has offered a price reduction of at least 10&#37; for LRIP IV.
Negotiations for the LRIP IV contract began in October 2009 and continued for more than a year; the contract deal was announced Nov. 19 without data on the per-unit target pricing. During that time, the Pentagon learned of more delays in delivering test aircraft as well as a lag in the flight testing program itself. Pentagon procurement czar Ashton Carter and acting Air Force procurement chief David Van Buren shifted LRIP IV away from being a cost-plus-incentive-fee contract.
LRIP IV is the first fixed-price, incentive-fee contract on the JSF production program. Pentagon officials were planning to shift to a fixed-price arrangement in LRIP V, but accelerated that plan to reduce financial exposure to the government of potential cost overruns. LRIP IV also includes the first purchase of CV versions.
The target price is driven largely by quantities. The prices include 11 CTOLs, one of which is a priced option. The base buy includes 10 CTOL aircraft for the U.S. Air Force. The Marine Corps is buying 16 Stovl aircraft, with another going to the United Kingdom. London, however, recently announced it would not purchase a Stovl fleet and this aircraft will be used for testing. This leaves the U.S. Marines and Italy as the only potential Stovl customers.
The U.S. Navy is buying four CVs in LRIP IV &#8212; most expensive version and the least mature at this point in the development program.
The LRIP IV contract stipulates that the government&#8217;s maximum per-unit financial exposure is 120% of the target price. Any overrun exceeding that ceiling (which represents the out-of-pocket cost to the government) would be paid for by prime JSF contractor Lockheed Martin. The funding would first come out of the company&#8217;s profit.
These per-unit target costs include some ancillary items not directly associated with building production aircraft, such as testing instrumentation equipment, says Tom Burbage, Lockheed Martin executive vice president and general manager for F-35. Though he says that the government&#8217;s per-unit target price is higher than Lockheed&#8217;s unit recurring flyaway (URF) price, the two sets of numbers are following the same price reduction curve.
Lockheed officials declined to release the URF because they say it is competition-sensitive; the F-35 is still competing against the Gripen, Eurofighter and F/A-18 E/F in various international campaigns. Based on the most recent multiyear procurement of 124 F/A-18E/F and E/A-18G aircraft, the per-unit cost is approximately $42.7 million, excluding the cost of both engines.
However, Burbage says in general the target per-unit cost cited by the Pentagon exceeds Lockheed&#8217;s URF by about 3-4%. &#8220;It is not worth arguing about real prices &#8230; because it is only really a small amount of money,&#8221; he says. &#8220;These numbers aren&#8217;t important to the U.S. Department of Defense&#8221; because officials they know the numbers. &#8220;These numbers are important to the international partnership [and] they do tend to get taken out of context,&#8221; Burbage adds.
Lockheed&#8217;s decision to agree to a fixed-price, incentive fee contract in LRIP IV earlier than planned is an effort to &#8220;try and dispel some of the cost discussion &#8230; to try and signal to the world that we have confidence in our cost.&#8221;
A government source says that the if the target per-unit prices are achieved, the cost is on a steep downward curve - reducing by more than $100 million since the first lot - for the CTOL version, which is competing in the international market.
According to a government source, the prices for LRIPs 1-3 are:
LRIP 1 - CTOL - $221.2 million,
LRIP 2 - CTOL - 161.7 million; Stovl (first purchase) $160.7,
LRIP 3 - CTOL - $128.2 million: Stovl $128 million.
The LRIP IV buy doubles Lockheed&#8217;s F-35 backlog, and Burbage says that each time the quantity ordered doubles, the per-unit price will decrease by 25-28 percent. Ultimately, Lockheed plans to sell at least 3,100 of the single-engine stealthy fighters, and officials hope to achieve an average recurring flyaway cost of about $60 million per CTOL unit.
Many of Lockheed&#8217;s smaller F-35 subcontractors are already under fixed-price arrangements, but negotiations must still be done on LRIP IV with BAE and Northrop Grumman, the top two industrial partners on the airframe portion of the program.
Talks for LRIP IV are nascent, but Burbage says he hopes to have a contract for this next lot by June.

ajay shukla ji ka kaya hoga


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## Dash

sancho said:


> An interesting point indeed, because the US will allow the assembly of critical parts in India only, so if the licence production of the radar is required too, it will be a difficult hurdle for them.
> 
> 
> 
> It's about share of critical techs, especially AESA radars and latest avionics, the Europeans offers these, the Russians anyway, the issue here should be the US side mainly.


Sancho -

Though it looks like the problem is from US side,however this question has been raised by all, obviously it benifits them. Now one thing is that it shouldnt further delay the process of acquisition. If that happens then this will become a joke.

because we knew that we couldnt absorb the tech for Scorpenes but we faced, still we didnt realise, and if this becomes the same case for IAF(as told by IAF cheif most likely it is) then we are being dragged to a black hole.

*IAF chief is realising now that offset policy is complicated, I mean why so late, couldnt this has been realised much earlier? * 

But US will not benift much if they delay the process, Their platforms are mature and that gives them a bargaining power over others, as their platform are not that mature in terms of AESA or critical techs for engines. But other platforms are improving and they will catch up, what it damages the only measure US has now?

So what the US will do, sell F-35s to India?..sounds fishy.


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## SpArK

*IAFs MMRCA tender stuck in offset limbo​*

The acquisition process for 126 Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) for the Indian Air Force (IAF) is facing delays due to uncertainties about offset policy *and with vendors facing the prospect of having to redo their homework.*

*The IAF had submitted its report on the technical evaluation of the six aircraft competing to win the tender last summer. After this submission, the Ministry of Defense had to evaluate the offset proposals submitted by the six vendors and also compare the respective proposals for transfer of technology.*

Last September, *the respective vendors were invited to a review of their offset proposals by ministry officials, when they were all told that the proposals submitted by them failed to comply with the parameters set by the ministry. They were also informed at the time that in the case of offsets for third party suppliers, all vendors would need to have Memoranda of Understanding (MoU) in place with their suppliers suppliers as well, and that a letter to this effect would be issued shortly, which would also list out discrepancies in the offset proposals of the respective vendors.*

Although no such letter was forthcoming, representatives of all six vendors were invited to a meeting last month, where *they were again informed of their non-compliance with the offset requirements. They were also told that they would be issued letters listing out the discrepancies in their offset proposals by November 30, as well as the structure of the MOUs required to be in place with Indian sub-contractors to the suppliers of the prime vendors, on the basis of which, they would have to submit fresh offset proposals by January 7, 2011.*

Although no letter arrived by November-end, the vendors did receive telephone calls advising them that the deadline for resubmission of offset proposals was extended to January 21, 2011 and that the letter listing discrepancies in the respective proposals would arrive by December 17, 2010, that is, today.

*No such letter has been received till this evening.*

While vendors understand the enormity of the ministrys task in evaluating the individual offset proposals, said to number in their hundreds, they fail to understand why this process could not have been conducted in parallel with the flight evaluation trials, since the original offset proposals were submitted in July, 2008.

*The ministry, on its part, wants to be thorough in setting the offset norms for the vendors in the fray for the MMRCA tender, since this deal, worth over US $ 10 billion, is expected to lay down the ground rules for offsets for successive deals as well.*

*Industry sources indicate that even the deadline of January 21, 2011 will be difficult to meet considering that any letter listing out possible discrepancies, even when it arrives, will require clarifications, face objections and is likely to cause much argument between the vendors and South Block, before responses are sent.*

*Some vendors object to the idea of signing MoUs with third party contractors since they do not expect to have any direct dealings with them. They also say that they would prefer to conclude sub-contracts on the basis of bids to discover the best prices and products and services, if and when they win the MMRCA tender.*

In the light of the approval granted to the new Defense Procurement Procedure (DPP) and an unprecedented Defense Production Policy by the Defense Acquisitions Council (DAC) on Tuesday (both documents are expected to be published by next month), there is a chance that newer offset policy elements might find their way into the norms being set for the MMRCA vendors, even though technically, the MMRCA tender process is governed by the DPP issued in 2006. In fact, there is now even talk of banking offsets being allowed for the MMRCA tender, which were actually first permitted by the DPP issued in 2008 under the Defense Offsets Policy.

Another issue that is expected to lead to yet more delays in the process is the failure on the part of the ministry to form a team to evaluate the respective proposals made by vendors for the transfer of technology. The methodology for evaluating and comparing the value of the respective proposals for transfer of technology also remains unformulated and unclear. This process, too, is expected to be tedious and time-consuming.

*And a third outstanding issue is the post delivery risk allocation with respect to the aircraft. While the aircraft will come with warranties, vendors feel they would breathe easier with clarity on the question of any civil liability that might accrue to an Original Equipment Manufacturer (OEM) in the event of a mishap*. While civilian and commercial aircraft deals usually cater for this issue, *it remains unresolved as far as the MMRCA is concerned.*

*Since the second week of February will also feature the Bangalore Air Show, Aero India 2011, these issues are unlikely to see the glimmerings of resolution anytime soon, without which the process cannot proceed toward the formulation of a shortlist of the aircraft and the opening of indicated commercial bids.*

The six contenders in the race are Boeings F/A-18 Super Hornet, Lockheed Martins F-16, EADS Eurofighter Typhoon, Dassaults Rafale, Saabs Gripen and the Russian MiG-35.



IAF&rsquo;s MMRCA tender stuck in offset limbo


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## luckyyy

BENNY said:


> Last September, the respective vendors were invited to a review of their offset proposals by ministry officials, when *they were all told that the proposals submitted by them failed to comply with the parameters set by the ministry.* They were also informed at the time that in the case of offsets for third party suppliers, *all vendors would need to have Memoranda of Understanding (MoU) in place with their suppliers suppliers as well,*



so , Gripen have to submit the MoU with GE for their engine...........i doubt that they can

F-18/F16 has to submit the MoU with their radar suppliers..............i doubt that they can

but what's the problum with Eurofighter and MIG-35.....i suppose they shouldn't be having any such issues...


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## angeldemon_007

Air Chief Marshall said the result will be out by march 2011. I think once again the timeline will cross and this might mean, we the normal taxpayer will have to pay an extra couple of billion $. Does our politician even pay Income Tax??/ The policies mentioned above are too strict although if accepted by the vendors will be very beneficial for us.

In my opinion, if India is thinking of increasing this deal from 126 to 180-200 which we have heard in many reports, then its time to do it. 

I think it would be beneficial as a deal for 200 fighters could help in decreasing the per unit cost of the fighters. If India extends this deal in the future then we will have to purchase the same fighter at more cost. But I know, we won't do this, as we like to waste money. 
Just look at examples, we are buying the new SU30 mki at the price close to that of F35 lightening. But who cares, we are paying...

Apart from this, any deal of this size (200 fighters) would mean even US will give all the technologies. 

We have to understand that with time, this deal is getting less attractive. Three years ago, this deal would have been the mother of all deal but now many countries are coming up with there demands, not so big but not so tough requirements either.


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## pulsar220

Deal to buy 126 fighter jets to be inked by mid-2011: IAF

HYDERABAD: The multi-billion dollar deal to acquire 126 fighter jets under the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) project is likely to be inked by mid-2011, Indian Air Force chief said. 

"It is a big deal. We have finished the evaluation and the matter is with the (defence) ministry now. Hopefully, it will progress and we will be able to sign the contract by July next year. After that it takes three years for delivery," Air chief marshal P V Naik said. 

He was talking to reporters after reviewing the Combined Graduation Parade of flight cadets of IAF at the Air Force Academy in Dundigal, about 35 km from here. 

Six global aeronautical firms are in the fray for the contract for which a tender was floated in August 2007. 

The chief of Air Staff said besides the MMRCA project, deals for inducting new aircraft were in the pipeline. India and Russia are jointly developing the fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA). "We will be going in for about 200-250 of such fighter planes starting from 2017 onwards." 

With regard to transport aircraft, the IAF will buy C-17 American transport aircraft for which negotiations are going on, Naik said. 

"The air force is going in for the Medium Transport Aircraft in collaboration with Russia. We are also going in for air to air refueling tankers (Flight Re-fueling Aircraft) for which we have given a global request for proposal (RFP). The C-130 J Hercules will be inducted from January," he said. 

Evaluation is on to buy attack helicopters and heavy lift choppers, the IAF chief said.


Read more: Deal to buy 126 fighter jets to be inked by mid-2011: IAF - The Times of India Deal to buy 126 fighter jets to be inked by mid-2011: IAF - The Times of India

i eager to know which one they have selected


----------



## MAFIAN GOD

^^^
We already knew that


----------



## kingdurgaking

hooo nooo moved further.. i doubt this will happen next year


----------



## sancho

Dash said:


> Sancho -
> 
> Though it looks like the problem is from US side,however this question has been raised by all, obviously it benifits them. Now one thing is that it shouldnt further delay the process of acquisition. If that happens then this will become a joke.
> 
> because we knew that we couldnt absorb the tech for Scorpenes but we faced, still we didnt realise, and if this becomes the same case for IAF(as told by IAF cheif most likely it is) then we are being dragged to a black hole.
> 
> *IAF chief is realising now that offset policy is complicated, I mean why so late, couldnt this has been realised much earlier? *
> 
> But US will not benift much if they delay the process, Their platforms are mature and that gives them a bargaining power over others, as their platform are not that mature in terms of AESA or critical techs for engines. But other platforms are improving and they will catch up, what it damages the only measure US has now?
> 
> So what the US will do, sell F-35s to India?..sounds fishy.



Hi Dash, you know, I don't thrust these kind of reports anymore and wait for official, or at least reliable sources, because we read too many different reports, that were false, or made up. 
Further delays are bad for us mainly, for the vendors it have pros and cons, because they have more time for further developments, but also a higher chance that the order could be scrapped, if LCA gets ready in the meant time and possibly better than expected. 
The F35 will be offered of course, but at the moment it's not ready, too costly and for sure also not available for a licence production.
Personally I don't even care much about delays of the final decision (I even expect them), but am more interested about the shortlisting, because it could tell us more about what IAF/MoD wants.


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## angeldemon_007

In my opinion India should not give any further military orders to US. We are getting good response from Europe and Russia. US will try to pressurize but the thing is what they can do ?? We have to be realistic they won't give UNSC seat to India because the know India is not like others, India won't support US in many cases especially in case of Iran. And if they really wanna give us UNSC then it must be an act of desperation because of China's growth.

Look at how Pres. Obama was desperate to get more and more deals. If India decides not to make any exception in case of procurement of military equipment from US and start giving orders to only Europe and Russia then Defense giants LM, Boeing, NG etc. will start to pressurize the govt. to give India full tot in most of the cases like the one in Globemaster deal, poesidan deal etc.


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## sudhir007

Beauty ::: EFT
*Working from Centre Fuselage to Outer Wing Pylon: 1000L tank, 2 * Meteor, 1000L Tank, ASRAAM.*










*Working from Centre Fuselage to Outer Wing Pylon: 1000L tank, 2 * Meteor, Paveway III, Storm Shadow, ALARM, ASRAAM.*










*Working from Centre Fuselage to Outer Wing Pylon: 1000L tank, 2 * Meteor, Taurus, ALARM, IRIS-T.*


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## kingdurgaking

^^ what is that big rectagular box in the second pic.. on both the wings?? is that also a drop tank?


----------



## sudhir007

*Working from Centre Fuselage to Outer Wing Pylon: 1000L tank, 2 * Meteor, 2000lb Paveway III, 2000lb Paveway III, ALARM, ASRAAM.*






*Working from Inner Wing Pylon to Outer Wing Pylon: 1000lb Paveway II, 1000L Tank, AMRAAM, AIM-9L Sidewinder.*





*Top image: Fitting of Storm Shadow, Centre Image: Checking installation of Meteor, Bottom Image: Final checks to SRAAM pylon (ASRAAM fitted).*















*Working from Outer Wing Pylon to Inner Wing Pylon: AIM-9L Sidewinder, BL755, 1000L tank, 2 * BL755.*


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## kingdurgaking

^^^ From the post above it seems EFT has a huge Ground munition.. hoping to see Sancho's comments.... he is having a tough time in BRF also with Viv S


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## sancho

kingdurgaking said:


> ^^ what is that big rectagular box in the second pic.. on both the wings?? is that also a drop tank?



That's the Storm Shadow / Scalp cruise missile!




kingdurgaking said:


> ^^^ From the post above it seems EFT has a huge Ground munition.. hoping to see Sancho's comments.... he is having a tough time in BRF also with Viv S



Actually that's the link I posted there yesterday and these are only possible configs, but not integrated or tested yet. Moreover compare that to other fighters in MMRCA and you will see that EF is clearly inferior in A2G configs:

1. Rafale - 3 x cruise missiles, 2 x fuel tanks at max
2. F18SH - 2 x JSOW stand off missiles, 3 x fuel tanks at max
3. F16 - 2 x JSOW stand off missiles, 3 x fuel tanks (+ CFTs)
4. Gripen - 2 cruise missiles, 2 x fuel tanks at max
5. EF - 2 x cruise missiles, 1 x fuel tank at max
6. Mig 35 - ??? Fighter and weapons are not ready yet

If we want, we could even get this config ( 2 x cruise missiles, 3 x fuel tanks, 2 x CFTs):






Or, 3 x cruise missiles, 2 x fuel tanks, 2 x CFTs at max.


The only reason why the Super Hornet is still said to be the best strike fighter (which I say too), is higher variety of weapons that it offers. 

The discussion with Viv btw started in this forum, because he was a member here before, but he is really too biased of the EF and don't see the reality and it is a good time pass, when this forum is not available.


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## Trichy

sancho said:


> That's the Storm Shadow / Scalp cruise missile!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually that's the link I posted there yesterday and these are only possible configs, but not integrated or tested yet. Moreover compare that to other fighters in MMRCA and you will see that EF is clearly inferior in A2G configs:
> 
> 1. Rafale - 3 x cruise missiles, 2 x fuel tanks at max
> 2. F18SH - 2 x JSOW stand off missiles, 3 x fuel tanks at max
> 3. F16 - 2 x JSOW stand off missiles, 3 x fuel tanks (+ CFTs)
> 4. Gripen - 2 cruise missiles, 2 x fuel tanks at max
> 5. EF - 2 x cruise missiles, 1 x fuel tank at max
> 6. Mig 35 - ??? Fighter and weapons are not ready yet
> 
> If we want, we could even get this config ( 2 x cruise missiles, 3 x fuel tanks, 2 x CFTs):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or, 3 x cruise missiles, 2 x fuel tanks, 2 x CFTs at max.
> 
> 
> The only reason why the Super Hornet is still said to be the best strike fighter (which I say too), is higher variety of weapons that it offers.
> 
> The discussion with Viv btw started in this forum, because he was a member here before, but he is really too biased of the EF and don't see the reality and it is a good time pass, when this forum is not available.



i highly think CFT (conformal fuel tanks) and fuel tanks are same ????


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## SpArK

*Side by side*






A U.S. Navy Blue Angel F/A-18 Hornet sits parked alongside a U.S. Army Chinook helicopter at the Boeing Hangar in the municipal airport in Millville, NJ. The two aircraft will be involved in demonstrations from the Army and Navy at the Millville Army Air Field Museum's annual Wheels & Wings Airshow.


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## sancho

Trichy said:


> i highly think CFT (conformal fuel tanks) and fuel tanks are same ????



No, fuel tanks are fitted on external hardpoints, under the fuselage, or at the wings. CFTs instead are fitted on the airframe itself, which gives the advantage that no hardpoints are occupied. They also reduce drag and the RCS, when they can be used instad of a bigger fuel tank.

*Fuel tank (1250l):*







*CFT (1150l):*







*And both (but 2000l fuel tank):*


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## SpArK

*India's MMRCA: Cut and Thrust​*
These are interesting times for India's Air Force. Somewhere in its colonnaded Delhi headquarters a massive team is poring over tens of thousands of pages about the six fighters in the 126-aircraft MMRCA (Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft) competition.

Aside from the 6,000-7,000 pages each company provided - the contenders are Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Saab, Dassault, Eurofighter, and RSK Mig - the IAF generated tons of data during the lengthy field trials of each aircraft.





An IAF official told me last week that the Air Force chief likes to joke that the IAF could provide consulting service to other countries on how to pick an airplane. The chief also, apparently, says cocktail parties are not as much fun: a nod to this person, or a smile to another, could be construed as an endorsement of a certain plane.

Who is winning? The fervid Indian press seems to throw up a new favourite every week. A discussion with anyone in the aviation sector inevitably veers toward the MMRCA. Everyone has an opinion, everyone has a favourite, but nobody really knows.





With $10 billion at stake the MMRCA deal is of tremendous importance for each of the companies (and countries) involved in the bidding. Indeed, the MMRCA could well decide the future of certain programmes.

This was clear in my discussions with the manufacturers last week. In my journalism career I've rarely had interview subjects convey such passion about their wares. It was all tremendously informative, and in my view every aircraft looks terrific.

But in the end there can be only one.





India's MMRCA: Cut and Thrust - Asian Skies

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## rockstarIN

*Eurofighter delivers 250th Typhoon fighter to Italy
*








> HALLBERGMOOS, GERMANY (BNS): The 250th Eurofighter Typhoon IS038 was delivered to the Italian Air Force at Pratica di Mare air base, Italy.
> 
> The 250th aircraft will join 311 squadron as part of their current duties.
> 
> &#8220;This is one more important milestone for the Eurofighter Typhoon programme. The delivery of 250 aircraft ensures that the Typhoon has more aircraft in service than any other new generation multi-role fighter, showing just how effective the Eurofighter programme really is,&#8221; Eurofighter CEO Enzo Casolini said.
> 
> Eurofighter Typhoon programme is Europe&#8217;s largest military collaborative programme and delivers leading-edge technology, strengthening Europe&#8217;s aerospace industry in the global competition.



EF is on the roll, waiting to see them in IAF colours..

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## Ammyy

BENNY said:


> An IAF official told me last week that the Air Force chief likes to joke that the IAF could provide consulting service to other countries on how to pick an airplane. The chief also, apparently, says cocktail parties are not as much fun: a nod to this person, or a smile to another, could be construed as an endorsement of a certain plane.


 




> Who is winning? The fervid Indian press seems to throw up a new favourite every week. A discussion with anyone in the aviation sector inevitably veers toward the MMRCA. *Everyone has an opinion, everyone has a favourite, but nobody really knows.*


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## luckyyy

> he chief also, apparently, says cocktail parties are not as much fun: a nod to this person, or a smile to another, could be construed as an endorsement of a certain plane.
> The fervid Indian press seems to throw up a new favourite every week. A discussion with anyone in the aviation sector inevitably veers toward the MMRCA.



he summed up everything...

actually inplace of takls and media reports , we need to look at the procces itself..

step 1] technical evaluation..........i think every one will pass , where as there was news that rafale and gripen failed ...but then all six take part in feild trails.

step2] feild trails................i think every one will pass , where as there was news that 4 out of 6 feel problum at leh , f-18 suffer due to low thrust....but then all six take part in offset proposals..

step3] offset proposals.......i think every one will able to full fill the offset obligation details , where as there was news that few are have not submitted the MoU with their subsuppliers...

step4] bidding ........i think every one bid will be opened and the deccision will be on life cycle L1 bid....

and the clinch is that rafale & eurofighter can't win a on L1 bid , no matter they were internat & media favarates...
F-16 & F-18 can't win the L1 bid , coz they are expensive too..

i think the last two left on the negotionation table will be *Gripen and MIG-35...*

Gripen is costly initially be will score on life cycle cost...
MIG-35 is cheap initially but looose on life cycle cost...

it will be tight between the two....


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## sudhir007

IAF to Chose From Eurofighter and Rafael: MRCA ~ ASIAN DEFENCE NEWS

After exhaustive trials of six fighter jets, Indian Air Force (IAF) has made its choice clear to the Government on the kind of fighter jets needed. Frontrunners for the force are French fighter Dassault Rafale and the Eurofighter Typhoon built by the European consortium. Bernhard Gerwert, Chief, EADS, says &#8220;If you are taking into account the portfolio of EADS we can bring the bridge between civil aviation and military aviation.&#8221; But the Americans and Russians have lost out. Boeing&#8217;s F18 no longer a frontrunner and Sweden&#8217;s Gripen too falling off the Indian radar.

Despite MiG 35s big thunder, its engine failing to impress while the F-16, according to the IAF has no future. Another reason favouring Rafale and Eurofighter is political. Thomas Matussek, German Ambassador, &#8220;We regard India as a strategic security partner and this is why we do not insist on an end user monitoring agreement period.&#8221; So when the mother of all defence deals is signed for the 126 Multi-Role Combat Aircraft either Rafale or the Eurofighter will fly away with the Rs 42,000 crore deal.


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## STAR SCREAM

Fake news and let me warn you sudhir this blogspot is full of Spywares and virus .do remember that.


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## sudhir007

STAR SCREAM said:


> Fake news and let me warn you sudhir this blogspot is full of Spywares and virus .do remember that.



thanx for your advice. I do remember that


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## SpArK

*Indias MMRCA battle enters the final rounds​*


A shortlist for India's medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) competition is to be drawn up in April or May.


Valued at around $10 billion, the requirement is for 126 aircraft, of which 18 will be sold as flyaways. The remaining 108 will be co-manufactured with India's Hindustan Aeronautics. Six aircraft types are involved in the fighter contest.


"All the technical evaluations are done," says an industry source. "The next stage will be a *downselect, likely in April or May after the Aero India show [9-13 February].* This will determine which aircraft go into contract negotiations."


*Another source, however, indicates that there is no fixed number of aircraft for the shortlist, and that all six aircraft types could, in theory at least, advance to the contract stage.* 

The six contenders are the Boeing F/A-18 E/F Super Hornet, Dassault Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon, Lockheed Martin F-16 Block 60, Saab Gripen, and RSK MiG-35.


The evaluation process has been long and arduous. An initial tender stipulated 660 requirements, and the initial proposals issued by the airframers ran to 5,000-6,000 pages each. Comprehensive field tests of the individual aircraft were then undertaken.

*The field tests included flying the aircraft - borrowed from various air forces - to India at the expense of the manufacturers. There they were subjected to batteries of tests that reflect India's varied geography of tropical, desert, and mountainous regions.

Tests took place at Bangalore (a tropical region), Jaisalmer (desert), and the Himalayan air base of Leh, said to be the highest operational air base in the world.*

"We spent quite a lot on the tests with no guarantee of a sale," says an executive involved in the race. "That said, the air force got a very good impression of all the aircraft."

Typically, India seeks offsets of 30% for defence programmes, but the requirement has been raised to 50% for the MMRCA as the nation targets job creation and technology transfer.

*Hindustan Aeronautics chairman Ashok Nayak says that development of the production capacity required to produce the eventual MMRCA winner is already under way.* 

"We will have to set up new infrastructure for this," says Nayak. "It won't happen in one of our existing factories, but hopefully *will still be in Bangalore."*

He estimates that *Hindustan Aeronautics alone will employ 3,500 to produce the MMRCA, and that it will take about three years to set up the facility.*


Boeing 747 and Airbus A380 Aircraft News from Flightglobal


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## sancho

STAR SCREAM said:


> Fake news and let me warn you sudhir this blogspot is full of Spywares and virus .do remember that.



That's not fake news, but a summery of the news TV news reports that came up some month ago that EF and Rafale is leading.
Imo it would be more than surprising if only these 2 will be shortlisted, I still remain with Gripen, F18SH and Rafale, while the final decision is between F18 and Rafale. 
Anything else simply doesn't make sense from the point of view of our forces, because only these can be used for IN aswell and only these offer credible strike capabilities.


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## SpArK

> I still remain with Gripen, F18SH and Rafale, while the final decision is between F18 and Rafale.


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## STAR SCREAM

i know sancho its 1st reported in timesnow ,after that there was a gold rush by many bloggers and helped to feed 1000s of post many fora.


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## STAR SCREAM

btw i support EF and Gripen .


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## angeldemon_007

My vote is on Typhoon but if rafale wins then also there wont be any surprise. But I don't think Russian fighter because of delays in Mig35(1st fighter only after 2013) and Americans because of less trust and they won't be providing with enough TOT.

The best deal is provided to India by Saab from all point of view but the drawback is no political gain. If Gripen NG wins then also I am a happy man.


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## Storm Force

Gripen NG just makes pure sense in terms of Cost, Total TOT trf, new range of weapons, vixen aesa radar, lowest life cycle cost, no end user issues, no political interference , commom engine as mk2 tejas.. ie GE414..

126 Gripen NG with GE414 engine, meteore BVR, Vixen Aesa
120 Tejas mk2, with GE414 engine, Astra bvr, Elta Aesa radar

Low cost share engines, and Training


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## sancho

STAR SCREAM said:


> i know sancho its 1st reported in timesnow ,after that there was a gold rush by many bloggers and helped to feed 1000s of post many fora.



Not only bloggers, even media in the EF partner countries used it as a base for reports that EF is leading the technical evaluation, although there was no reliable source (at least I didn't found one so far) about the trials so far.




Storm Force said:


> no political interference...
> ...share engines, *and Training*




No political interference, or did you meant no political advantage? 
Also how can a LCA and Gripen can share training?


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## luckyyy

angeldemon_007 said:


> My vote is on Typhoon but if rafale wins then also there wont be any surprise. But I don't think Russian fighter because of delays in Mig35(1st fighter only after 2013) and Americans because of less trust and they won't be providing with enough TOT.
> 
> The best deal is provided to India by Saab from all point of view but the drawback is no political gain. If Gripen NG wins then also I am a happy man.



it's a transperent procces and each compititer has spand lot of money on trails...
so we need to look at the procces itself ..
technical evaluation and field trails are over and all 6 has moved forward..
now offset and bidding would be elaluated....
once the IAF cleared all 6 in feild trails , the talk of better aircrafts with better capabilities should rest..
now the talks should focus on offset and bidding...
i think the last two that will left on the negotionation table will be Gripen and MIG-35...

Gripen is costly initially be will score on maintanence cost...
MIG-35 is cheap initially but looose on maintanence cost...
i think the overall life cycle cost of both would be at same level...


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## Indian-Devil

luckyyy said:


> it's a transperent procces and each compititer has spand lot of money on trails...
> so we need to look at the procces itself ..
> technical evaluation and field trails are over and all 6 has moved forward..
> now offset and bidding would be elaluated....
> once the IAF cleared all 6 in feild trails , the talk of better aircrafts with better capabilities should rest..
> now the talks should focus on offset and bidding...
> i think the last two that will left on the negotionation table will be Gripen and MIG-35...
> 
> Gripen is costly initially be will score on maintanence cost...
> MIG-35 is cheap initially but looose on maintanence cost...
> i think the overall life cycle cost of both would be at same level...



There is no doubt that MIG-35 and Grippen has advantage in terms of low cost and maintenance cost. But i donot think IAF will choose Mig-35. There are several factors which have been discussed hundred times by many members, so no point in discussing them again here.

Grippen is a strong contender but still looking at political factor and other competitor aircrafts , MoD & IAF should be choosing between F-18 , Rafael or Eurofighter. Looking at the American's sanctions history and various issues for end user agreement and ToT factors, They are also not in last contender lists, unless MoD babus get in picture.
Most probably winner should be from Europe only but which one , this is mistry only as of now. My money is on Eurofighter and Rafael only.


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## STAR SCREAM




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## STAR SCREAM




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## STAR SCREAM

*GRIPEN NG*






---------- Post added at 11:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:42 PM ----------







---------- Post added at 11:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:43 PM ----------


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## STAR SCREAM

*MIG VS VIPER*


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## luckyyy

Indian-Devil said:


> There is no doubt that MIG-35 and Grippen has advantage in terms of low cost and maintenance cost. But i donot think IAF will choose Mig-35. There are several factors which have been discussed hundred times by many members, so no point in discussing them again here.
> 
> Grippen is a strong contender but still looking at political factor and other competitor aircrafts , MoD & IAF should be choosing between F-18 , Rafael or Eurofighter. Looking at the American's sanctions history and various issues for end user agreement and ToT factors, They are also not in last contender lists, unless MoD babus get in picture.
> Most probably winner should be from Europe only but which one , this is mistry only as of now. My money is on Eurofighter and Rafael only.



eurojet engine lost to GE....in a tendor procces specially when compititers spands so much money on trials , the contract is bound to be given on transperant commercial L1 bid...


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## sudhir007

Indian MMRCA offsets differences near solution

A solution to the vexed issue of third party suppliers within the offset obligations of bidders of India&#8217;s estimated $10 billion MMRCA fighter contract appears to be near with the bidders and the MoD reportedly agreeing to the draft of a contract between the prime integrators (the six bidders-Lockheed Martin, Boeing, MiG, Saab, Eurofighter and Dassault), their major sub-contractors and the MoD.

Earlier, the MoD and the prime integrators had serious differences over what industry sources called as &#8220; third party contracts&#8221;. The MoD was insisting that the prime integrators sign MoUs on behalf of the sub-contractors while the latter expressing inability to do so on ground that they could not stand guarantee for their sub-contractors&#8217; commitments. &#8220;A draft of the MoU is expected to be received from the MoD soon after which the vendors will have to sign these with each of the sub-system providers who have been mentioned under the 50&#37; offsets obligations for the MMRCA contract&#8221;, an industry source told Defenseworld.net. There is broad agreement between a majority of the bidders and the MoD over the new MoU, the source said.

A fresh deadline of January 28, 2011 has been set to receive the signed MoUs, after which the MoD will examine afresh the offset proposals and proceed with the rest of the evaluation in selecting an ultimate winner.

Earlier, the six bidders had been informed that their offsets proposals needed to be redrawn as the MoD would only accept the prime contractors&#8217; commitments for any offset work to be done which will have to be direct offsets and involve transfer of technology to India. It is not yet clear what the terms of the new MoU will be like, the sources said stating that however, recent interactions between the MoD&#8217;s MMRCA cell and the bidders seems to indicate forward movement.

There are altogether some 500-600 offset proposals as part of the MMRCA bids involving all the prime integrators. &#8220;Explaining the MoU to each of the sub-system providers in the context of every one of the offset proposals will be a time consuming exercise involving complex legal and technical issues and the approximate one month time looks too short to accomplish this work&#8221;, the industry sources said.

Industry experts as well as defence officials have voiced concern over the offsets policy. At a seminar on the fifth international conference on energising Indian aerospace industry organised by the Confederation of Indian Industry (CII) and Vayu Aerospace, the outgoing Vice Chief of the Indian Air Force, P.K. Barbora said a &#8220;well-defined offset policy is the need of the day&#8221;. Barbora has been quoted as saying on December 16, &#8220;our offset policy is very nascent. It is complicated and foreign vendors find it difficult to understand&#8221;. Barbora is reported to have made it clear that the comments were his personal views.

The Indian MoD is scheduled to announce a new edition of its defence procurement policy early next year which is expected to address some of the concerns of international vendors.


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## GORKHALI

Eurofighter Typhoon rocketinginto the late afternoon sun

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## LongLiveBritian

I hope you guys buy our EF, our economy needs a boost and that can only come from trade and etc especially with the war in Afghanistan and Iraq which has completely f'ed our economy(mind my language).


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## Dash

LongLiveBritian said:


> I hope you guys buy our EF, our economy needs a boost and that can only come from trade and etc especially with the war in Afghanistan and Iraq which has completely f'ed our economy(mind my language).



You are a big economy, $10 billion are nothing but just a cake. But we are seeing greater co-operation in other areas which is benificial for both of us. I am sure we cant recover such a big economy but we can benifit from each other....

and if we dont buy EF, then dont worry, we can always work on giving you something in return.


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## GORKHALI

*AFTER BURNER 2010*
MILITARY AVIATION AND SPACE TECHNOLOGY NEWS: IMAGES- AFTER BURNER 2010
1:



rafale M climbout
2:



Raf typhoon burnout 
3:



eurofighter
4:



RAF TORNADO LAST BUMP BEFORE DUMP
5:



Rainbow typhoon


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## GORKHALI

*CAN SOME HELP ME OUT TO PUT ALL THIS IMAGE HERE from the above link ??*


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## sudhir007

MMRCA : BVR Silver Bullets for IAF

Lot of discussions have taken place on aircrafts in the race for providing 126 fighter jets to Indian air force for MMRCA tender , but very little has been discussed about the weapons which will come with this , particularly Beyond visual range (BVR) Air to Air missiles (AAM) which is essential weapon in any fighter aircraft now .
Indian air force chief has recently disclosed that whichever aircraft will be selected of the MMRCA tender, Aircrafts will be deployed near Chinese border which will replace old Mig-21s currently guarding north eastern borders of our country, and this is a considerable shift in IAF strategy and planning.

earlier in late 80&#8217;s saw arrival of brand new Mirage-2000h and Mig-29A which were mostly deployed in western sector towards Pakistani border , but recent decision to base IAF frontline Sukhoi Su-30MKI and also upgrade many North eastern airbase and runways to keep heaver fighters is the indication that best will be kept to face Chinese air force in case of border conflicts and Pakistani border will be guarded by Upgraded Mirage-2000h and Mig-29SMT along with indigenously developed LCA-Tejas which will be based in western sector from 2012 onwards .

Coming back to BVRAAM&#8217;s which will come with the aircrafts if selected by IAF

*MBDA Meteor:* Termed has one of the best BVRAAM is a Next generation BVRAAM developed by MBDA. Meteor is a light weight BVRAAM which incorporates stealthy profile and lesser drag with advance sensors, Meteor has data link capability and can be guided by another aircraft like AWACS or by another fighter aircraft. Gripen and Eurofighter are the aircrafts which will be have them has a standard BVRAAM package but they are Plans by IAF to acquire them in any case to improve Sukhoi-30 MKI BVR fighting capability and integrations will be done with assistance from MBDA , when MKI&#8217;s Mid-life up gradation program which will start in another two years from now .

*Raytheon AIM-120 AMRAAM :* American mostly likely table Family of AIM-120 AMRAAM which will be offered with F-18 SH and F-16IN , latest in the family are AIM-120D and AIM-120C7 , Saab Gripen also can carry this missile which gives Swedish an edge in MMRCA tender since both Meteor and AIM-120 can be offered has the standard BVRAAM for their jet .AIM-120 Family of AMRAAM will serve USAF and other countries till 2020 still a replacement which is under development become active and hits production .

*Raytheon AIM-9X Sidewinder: *One more offering will come from Americans will be Sidewinder, it does not fall in category of BVRAAM but still is a potential AAM in close range dogfight, both of the American Missiles are standard missiles in almost all of fighter jets operated by USAF and USN which includes F-15, F-16, F-22, F-35 and even F-18SH, both AAM&#8217;s are battle proven and has very high rate of success in dog fights.

*MBDA MICA:* another BVRAAM coming from MBDA is MICA which is a standard BVRAAM for Rafale jets and can also be integrated with Eurofighter, IAF is already procuring them for their Mirage-2000H which will be upgraded soon with new avionics package and radar and will also get MICA BVRAAM. MICA has been rumored to be already operational with 10 IAF Mirage 2000&#8217;s which were purchased from the excess French Air force stock.

*PYTHON-5 and DERBY:* Israelis are keen to offer there PYTHON-5 which actually is not a BVRAAM but is still an advance AAM missile and currently operational with Israeli F-15 and F-16s, while DERBY is a standard BVRAAM with Indian Navy&#8217;s Sea Harrier fleet, while IAF has not yet integrated any of this missiles with their fleet of fighter jets, but recently Indian navy have told they could like to have DERBY in Naval &#8211;Tejas too


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## luckyyy

sudhir007 said:


> MMRCA : BVR Silver Bullets for IAF



why to buy these expensive BVRAAM , each costing more them $3ml , when Astra would be ready by the time first MMRCA arrive...


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## sudhir007

luckyyy said:


> why to buy these expensive BVRAAM , each costing more them $3ml , when Astra would be ready by the time first MMRCA arrive...



dear it will be package deal not for only f/a if you look at the apache longbow helicopter in the below thread you will find that we getting around 1600-1700 different missile for only 22 helicopter, also i here that in the mirage-2000 up-gradation deal we are buying around $700million mica missile. and did you really sure that astra will be significant. we need more capable missile to defend our-self. the missile which we are getting with this deal is proven and testing and will be inducted in their country. Astra will be take time and we are not sure how it will be work. and only One missile does not fulfill our requirement.


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## jha

METEOR is sure to come..Python-5 is better suited to us than AIM-9x sidewinder..
So, a combo of METEOR,DERBY,Python-5 and ASTRA (in future) will be the AAM arsenal we will be looking at..While ELRAAM will be russian origin..


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## PRACTICAL PATRIOT

luckyyy said:


> why to buy these expensive BVRAAM , each costing more them $3ml , when Astra would be ready by the time first MMRCA arrive...



gun is only as good as its bullet. that is however costly and good gun you have its effectiveness would depend on its bullets in this case if our bvram is not as good as our plane then they wont be highly lethal. 
astra is a new platform and INDIA's first atempt at bvram so it will definately take time for us to mature this technology and make it proven.

so it is better to use more proven technology with our frontline fighters along with indeginous ones to give time for our indeginious technology to mature.


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## KEETARP

luckyyy said:


> why to buy these expensive BVRAAM , each costing more them $3ml , when Astra would be ready by the time first MMRCA arrive...



It may look as an - out & out waste of money buying these newer generation missile , but if you look closely what - air-force will be facing in air-combat tomorrow . It is the only way we can be at par with enemy . 

Only few months back , forum was buzzing with news (JF17 to get A-Darter , SD10 & DIRCM ) . 
If that has not materialized , it will in future. 

Now will our generation old ; seeker tech of R73,ASTRA,R77 can manage to outsmart DIRCM of J10,F16,Jf17 . 
Can R73 provide QWIP-IIFPA imaging resolution equal to AIM-9x sidewinder . 
Does R77,ASTRA has advanced seeker to be able to cut through clutter ,chaffs . 
Just 2 days back Sd10 was discussed to be having home-on-jam mode . (4 modes in total) . See how level playing field will change suddenly and we will be at disadvantage

Game changer will be AIM120-c7 , Meteor , ASRRAM-AIM132 IRIST , AIM9X but if we fail to cache in .................................. i think that settles it .


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## angeldemon_007

I think its better to pay 3 million extra, rather than losing the whole fighter in the enemy attack. By the way, we don't have to pay extra for the missile, they are coming with the fighters.
Alo, the point to be noted is Gripen is again ahead of others, although it might not win because of less political leverage.


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## sancho

jha said:


> METEOR is sure to come..Python-5 is better suited to us than AIM-9x sidewinder..
> So, a combo of METEOR,DERBY,Python-5 and ASTRA (in future) will be the AAM arsenal we will be looking at..While ELRAAM will be russian origin..



Not to forget that we will have MICA IR and EM also, personaly I hoped for Python V for LCA, or the upgraded fighter, but so far it looks like we don't go for them. Derby is not really needed when we have R77, Astra, MICA EM and can go to METEOR, or AIM 120. MICA IR is really an interesting missile imo, because it is the only IR missile that can be used at BVR ranges.
A possible missile combo for Indian Rafales could be MICA IR + ASTRA + METEOR, which would be a deadly combo in BVR. 
I also think we should combine the Maitri SAM co-development, with an SR AAM development, MICA VL is also based on MICA IR, just like Spyder SAM is based on Python V missiles. We just would go the other way around.


----------



## jha

sancho said:


> Not to forget that we will have MICA IR and EM also, personaly I hoped for Python V for LCA, or the upgraded fighter, but so far it looks like we don't go for them. Derby is not really needed when we have R77, Astra, MICA EM and can go to METEOR, or AIM 120. MICA IR is really an interesting missile imo, because it is the only IR missile that can be used at BVR ranges.
> A possible missile combo for Indian Rafales could be MICA IR + ASTRA + METEOR, which would be a deadly combo in BVR.
> I also think *we should combine the Maitri SAM co-development, with an SR AAM development, MICA VL is also based on MICA IR, just like Spyder SAM is based on Python V missiles. We just would go the other way around*.



Thats an interesting idea..We can and should do that. But I doubt we will go for it..

Regarding Derby:: I was advocating this beause of commonality ..We already are using this in Harriers..BTW i had detailed discussion on this with an israelli guy on this and even he does not know what is its range..


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## sancho

jha said:


> Thats an interesting idea..We can and should do that. But I doubt we will go for it..
> 
> Regarding Derby:: I was advocating this beause of commonality ..We already are using this in Harriers..BTW i had detailed discussion on this with an israelli guy on this and even he does not know what is its range..



Why do you think so, are there other plans? I mean we can't rely on old R73, or buy western SR missiles forever right? Sooner, or later we have to develop an own one too and this would have been a good chance.
I know, but Derby is available just for a dozen Harriers only, so in very small numbers and with the induction of Mig 29K and NLCA, they will be phased out anyway. That makes Derby not even a long term alternative for IN, that's why I have doubts about Derby.


Btw, pics of the new F16 CFTs, now testing on UAEs B60s:












Livefist - Indian Defence & Aerospace: PHOTOS: The F-16 Conformal Refuelling Probe For MMRCA


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## SpArK

Found these photos in the new edition of Lockheed-Martin's Code One magazine of the F-16 Conformal Air Refuelling Tank System (CARTS), a Skunk Works led effort that began on a UAE Air Force Block 60 in 2007, specifically to meet an Indian MMRCA requirement.

The report quotes CARTS engineer Don Thompson as saying, We needed a test aircraft version of the Block 60 aircraft. The test Block 60 aircraft in the US was tied up with avionics modification and integration to support MMRCA field trials, and we needed a dedicated aircraft for the CARTS portion of the field trials demonstration. We modified the aircraft in the UAE because it was easier and quicker than bringing another Block 60 F-16 into the US to modify and then send it right back to the UAE on the way to India for the field trials."

The report notes that "During the flight testing and MMRCA demonstrations, the CARTS-equipped F-16 successfully received fuel from both a modified DC-10 and an Indian Air Force Ilyushin Il-78 tanker aircraft and made approximately forty aerial refueling contacts. The speed envelope, as tested, is in the range of 250 to 300 knots. The pilot flies the probe into the refueling basket of the drogue from just below at a closing speed of no more than ten knots."


Livefist - Indian Defence & Aerospace: PHOTOS: The F-16 Conformal Refuelling Probe For MMRCA


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## jha

sancho said:


> *Why do you think so, are there other plans?* I mean we can't rely on old R73, or buy western SR missiles forever right? Sooner, or later we have to develop an own one too and this would have been a good chance.
> I know, but Derby is available just for a dozen Harriers only, so in very small numbers and with the induction of Mig 29K and NLCA, they will be phased out anyway. That makes Derby not even a long term alternative for IN, that's why I have doubts about Derby.


 I dont know of any other plans..
I was just talking about the culture in which MoD works..
The MAITRI itself has started after great No-Nos from some of the circles..I doubt their attitude will change anytime soon..

I am all for this project if it materializes...
Regarding ASTRA- frankly i do not have much faith on this project..It seems to be a generation old AAM ..( Just range is not everything in BVRAAM ).. We should work with Israel/France to develop a better seeker for ASTRA-II if we want to make this really potent ..


----------



## sancho

jha said:


> I am all for this project if it materializes...
> Regarding ASTRA- frankly i do not have much faith on this project..It seems to be a generation old AAM ..( Just range is not everything in BVRAAM ).. We should work with Israel/France to develop a better seeker for ASTRA-II if we want to make this really potent ..



Don't know much about it, but we do have some know how in the missile sector now (Akash, Brahmos) and I do think that we could upgrade it in future with a RAM jet propulsion similar to METEOR, not to forget that we will gain from such co-developments like Maitri, Barak, or Brahmos too, so it has some potential.


----------



## jha

sancho said:


> Don't know much about it, but we do have some know how in the missile sector now (Akash, Brahmos) and I do think that we could upgrade it in future with a RAM jet propulsion similar to METEOR, not to forget that we will gain from such co-developments like Maitri, Barak, or Brahmos too, so it has some potential.



ASTRA-II needs to have RAMJET propulsion . 
Lets hope we learn something from MAITRI and BARAK..


----------



## angeldemon_007

> We should work with Israel/France to develop a better seeker for ASTRA-II if we want to make this really potent ..


Recently barack Obama uplifted the ban from our companies and allowed the trade of critical technologies. 
Now we won't have the problems regarding the sale of critical seeker and sensor technology. I hope this scenario will change in the near future. 
But working with Israel-France in this field would be best idea. 
We need to develop a world class BVR in our home so that it would be cheaper to produce.


----------



## GORKHALI

Quicker Induction of jets
is Key in MMRCA Tender:
IAF Official BY ADMIN AT 31 DECEMBER, 2010, 3:45 AM SOURCE : IDRW NEWS NETWROK A high ranked serving officer in Indian air force have told (idrw.org), IAF is looking at quicker induction of the jets into air force, and without any further delays once the winner of the MMRCA Tender competition is out by Mid of next year . IAF has made a detail study of all the OEM (Original Equipment Manufacturer) Production capability of this jets and also how fast they can get their government approval for Transfer of Core Technology to India, and also ground tools and other spare supplies of the jet to HAL, so that local production of the 108 jets can start in India, first 18 aircraft will be directly sourced from the manufacturer. Officer also admitted that aircrafts like Gripen NG, MiG-35 and F-16IN which are in the race are more of Built for India jets and Manufactures might face some minor or serious issues with this jets, since most of this jet are still in prototype stage and Avionics and other changes to the aircraft might suffer delays, which might delay whole Production line of the jets or HAL might have issues in doing local production of this jets which might result in to slow induction in IAF fleet. IAF is already retiring more jets then inducting them and Mig-23 fleet has been already been retired and MMRCA aircraft will fill the gap of this jets, IAF will also be retiring Half of Mig-27 fleet by 2015, so this is a major concern for IAF, since this will also be the period where jets like Mig-29 and Mirage-2000 will be going through major Mid-life up gradation and pulling of this jets for up gradation will leave further void in IAF &#8217;s operational capability. Key will be faster induction of MMRCA jets, and also take care that Sukhoi Su 30 MKI and Tejas MK-1 induction have smooth induction into IAF.Quicker Induction of jets is Key in MMRCA Tender: IAF Official


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## luckyyy

> Officer also admitted that aircrafts like Gripen NG, MiG-35 and F-16IN which are in the race are more of *Built for India jets *and Manufactures might face some minor or serious issues with this jets, since *most of this jet are still in prototype stage *and Avionics and other changes to the aircraft might suffer delays, which might delay whole Production line of the jets or HAL might have issues in doing local production of this jets which might result in to slow induction in IAF



does *build for india *jet is good for india or bad..?

Gripen is still in prototype but F-16IN is the same which are flying in UAE and MIG-35 is around for 4 years now..


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## rockstarIN

What about EF tr-3 then?

It is also been considered as a prototype then..


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## sancho

luckyyy said:


> does *build for india *jet is good for india or bad..?
> 
> Gripen is still in prototype but F-16IN is the same which are flying in UAE and MIG-35 is around for 4 years now..



Depends, the Mig 35 has no other operators (and is not even a prototype so far, all we saw now are modified Mig 29Ks), so build for India means can integrate more Indian weapons and systems. The F16 in ready and proven for the biggest part, but apart from some avionic changes, those CFTs will be completelly new and made mainly for India, but later also available for other export countries.




rockstar said:


> What about EF tr-3 then?
> 
> It is also been considered as a prototype then..



EF is not a prototype, because it is in operational service and will be upgraded only, but if fast induction is important to IAF, it is out for sure, because the upgrade is still not decided yet and will cause delays.

So if the report is true, the chances of Rafale and the F18SH (as I expected) are the best.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## Archie

sancho said:


> Depends, the Mig 35 has no other operators (and is not even a prototype so far, all we saw now are modified Mig 29Ks), so build for India means can integrate more Indian weapons and systems. The F16 in ready and proven for the biggest part, but apart from some avionic changes, those CFTs will be completelly new and made mainly for India, but later also available for other export countries.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EF is not a prototype, because it is in operational service and will be upgraded only, but if fast induction is important to IAF, it is out for sure, because the upgrade is still not decided yet and will cause delays.
> 
> *So if the report is true, the chances of Rafale and the F18SH (as I expected) are the best*.



Yeah that is the right judgement , However i personally prefer Rafales
Reasons
1. Higher weapons Payload at 9500kg vs 8000kg
2. More Hardpoints at 14 vs 11
3. Lower RCS at 2 vs 5sqm
4. Capability to deliver Nuclear Weapons , could replace Mirage 2000 in that role 
5. Storm Shadow Cruise Missile which could be Integrated with Rafale and Typhoon and which has a range of 250Km with a warhead of 450kg
6. Pakistan too will have same weapons for its F16 which will be used BY Super Hornet
7. US will never offer the Level Of TOT being offered by the French

*Most Interesting of all Desault Has Promised to deliver 40 Aircrafts on short notice out of Fighters actually meant for french airforce by 2013 should Rafale be chosen Compared to that Boing would be Unable to deliver first aircraft before September 2014 *


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## angeldemon_007

> does build for india jet is good for india or bad..?


good question....



> Officer also admitted that aircrafts like Gripen NG, MiG-35 and F-16IN which are in the race are more of Built for India jets and Manufactures might face some minor or serious issues with this jets, since most of this jet are still in prototype stage


Complete bullshit.......
Gripen NG is an advanced version of gripen which is being used by many countries. That means atleast the platform is being tested. If gripen is under testing then what about Rafale ??/ Its only used by France. This makes it one of the highest risk purchase. Even the recent accidents of Rafale should ring the alarm bell in their ears. 

Its really funny, the guy is calling the oldest fighter in this competition as prototype.....really funny...Although F16IN is new but it is being used by UAE.

What about Eurofighter ??/ Which is the only fighter in the competition which doesnot have AESA. As per what i remember AESA was the requirement. Although Eurofighter is saying they will provide aesa and even thrust vectoring but anybody can tell by listening this is this would cause delay in induction.

What about F18SH ??/ I know its fully developed but its not as advanced as eurofighter and Rafale and even gripen. Check out the features. Also what about offset and TOT. US companies are fooling us time and again. 
We should keep this in mind that this acquisition will help us in developing the technologies for our future fighter like LCA MKII and AMCA. 
Selecting a US fighter won't help us in any way.....

My vote is for Gripen, if not then we should go for typhoon and but be ready for delays...

I won't comment on Mig35 as its true.


----------



## the rafter

angeldemon_007 said:


> good question....
> 
> 
> Complete bullshit.......
> Gripen NG is an advanced version of gripen which is being used by many countries. That means atleast the platform is being tested.



Dude, Gripen NG that was used for trials in MMRCA is a technology demonstrator, only few prototypes exist. Even Swedish air force don't have them yet. The NG is expected to enter Swedish service in 2017 or possibly earlier if export orders are received. This makes it more risky than Rafale.


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## luckyyy

sancho said:


> So if the report is true, *the chances of* Rafale and the F18SH (as I expected) are the best.



the procces of selecting the mmrca is in final stages and not in the initial stages...
do we need to remind ourself what is the final stage.......*Commertical Bidding..*

therefore the chances of L1 bidder ....only winning.....


----------



## angeldemon_007

> Dude, Gripen NG that was used for trials in MMRCA is a technology demonstrator,


Gripen NG was never fielded during the MMRCA trials. Other Gripen was fielded at that time which was a setback for SAAB. A lot of articles came in the media during that time. Later Gripen NG was tested and is handed over to authorities for operational clearance.
As per the report few new technologies and avionics were tested on NG making it more lethal and as per reports test was successful. 


> This makes it more risky than Rafale.


I said that based on all the reading i did from the Saab website and gripen IN website. According to which not enough changes are made which would delay much. But you are right, still risk is there. I got carried away because they are offering a nice deal, even the maintenance cost is less, lest cost per unit, offers good BVR range and even they have their own aesa. But there are few glitches as there are few American components which might cause problem in the deal they are offering and I think thats why MOD wanted assurances from the third party suppliers also. Also we know Gripen is somewhat similar to LCA(I just read this many places) and Gripen uses GE 414 engine. SAAB will offer us twin engine version and has even agreed to give India the right to produce Gripen and sell in global market as a separate vendor.
Even Eurofighter deal is also lucrative but they don't have aesa. Problem with Rafale is not justed less tested but also the high cost...but yeah it is truely a multi role fighter which i think eurofighter is not.

Lets see what happens but whatever happen should happen quickly as the cost of the deal is definitely going to increase when the fresh bids will be issued.


----------



## the rafter

angeldemon_007 said:


> Later Gripen NG was tested and is handed over to authorities for operational clearance.
> As per the report few new technologies and avionics were tested on NG making it more lethal and as per reports test was successful.
> 
> I said that based on all the reading i did from the Saab website and gripen IN website.



You've got it wrong mate, Gripen NG was the last contender to be tested in MMRCA field trials. But its not yet ready with for serial production. There are several developments to be completed (including the development costs/incorporating the new General Electric F414G engine). Not just american parts/engine but it has several components imported from other countries (including proposed AESA radar).
There are some advantages for choosing Gripen but if you look closely its not so.
How many different fighters do you expect IAF to have (Mirage, MIGs, Sukhoi, LCA, PAK-FA, AMCA)? Imagine the demand for spares and servicing needs in the future? No country wants that nightmare (also considering the parts come several other countries). Gripen NG would have been advantageous if it was fully developed (though it is more prone to sanctions and restrictions for tech transfer, whatever SAAB might assure now). 


angeldemon_007 said:


> SAAB will offer us twin engine version


I don't know where you got the above info but thats totally false, Gripen is a single engine jet.


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## SpArK

YouTube - MMRCA

While walking on the road if u see some papers.. just dont ignore.. could be MRCA deal papers.


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## doctor_who

Secret IAF file found on roadside in Delhi

*Secret IAF file found on roadside in Delhi*

New Delhi: * A secret file related to over USD 11 billion deal for procuring 126 multirole combat aircraft went missing from the Defence Ministry and has been found on the roadside in New Delhi*, prompting the Indian Air Force to order a probe into the incident.

The secret file is related to the Offsets clause in the deal and was found on the roadside in a Delhi locality recently, IAF officials said, adding that the file has been recovered.

"The IAF has ordered a Court of Inquiry (CoI) into the loss of the secret file which went missing from the Defence Ministry. The Ministry will order a separate probe into the incident as the file had gone missing from there," Air Vice Marshal M Matheswaran, Assistant Chief of Air Staff (Operations) said.

The incident comes at a time when the multi-billion dollar deal has entered the critical stage after the IAF carried out extensive flight evaluation trials of the six participating aircraft.

*The IAF had submitted its report to the Defence Ministry, which has to take a final call on the deal.*
He said the IAF had ordered the probe under a senior official to find out how the file had gone missing from the Ministry as it belonged to the Air Force.

"The secret file has been recovered and it is in our custody," he added.

However, it was not clear as to *how and who recovered the file.*

Under the Offsets clause in the defence production procedure, a foreign vendor bagging any deal worth over Rs. 300 crore has to invest back at least 30 per cent of the contract's worth back in Indian defence sector.

Under the M-MRCA deal, the offsets were pegged at 50 per cent of the worth of the deal. American F-16 and F/A-18, French Rafale, Swedish Gripen, Russian MiG 35 and European Eurofighter are the six contenders participating the deal for supplying the aircraft to the IAF.


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## angeldemon_007

> You've got it wrong mate, Gripen NG was the last contender to be tested in MMRCA field trials.


Thats what i am saying that wasn't gripen NG. They never fielded NG for trial because it was called back for operational clearance because of some problems in upgrades. Read this and njoy:
http://www.key.aero/view_news.asp?ID=1736&thisSection=military




> I don't know where you got the above info but thats totally false, Gripen is a single engine jet.


Sorry, not twin engine. Twin seater, which is also requirement of IAF and which gripen is not but in Gripen NG they will be offering.



> Not just american parts/engine but it has several components imported from other countries (including proposed AESA radar).


*Dude, the aesa on gripen ng is Raven AESA radar developed jointly by Saab and Selex Galileo.*
I know they have many parts from different countries but the only problem which we might face would from US companies.



> How many different fighters do you expect IAF to have (Mirage, MIGs, Sukhoi, LCA, PAK-FA, AMCA)?


Let me assure you there's a new platform coming. Only if Rafale wins then there wont be problem of platform. But everything points towards Typhoon. By the way purchase would be sanctioned by GOI and not IAF and even they also want Typhoon/Rafale(might be false news but they are really good fighter. I supported gripen because of the deal they are offering.)



> though it is more prone to sanctions and restrictions for tech transfer, whatever SAAB might assure now


I also raised my concern on that.


----------



## sancho

angeldemon_007 said:


> good question....
> 
> 
> Complete bullshit.......
> Gripen NG is an advanced version of gripen which is being used by many countries. That means atleast the platform is being tested. If gripen is under testing then what about Rafale ??/ Its only used by France.



You have to understand the differences! Rafale F3 which is in use of French forces now, will just get some tech upgrades, to the the F3+ level that is offered for us. RBE 2 PESA radar will be RBE 2 AESA, M88-2 engine will be M88 - 2 E4, some upgrades on the avionics... Same goes for EF, or F16IN, (avionics and CFTs) and F18SH will be just without changes, while the Mig and Gripen E/F will get also new airframes, which makes it comparable to the changes from the F18 Hornet to Super Hornet. Also the techs that will be available with the new Gripen, are new developments, not just upgrades. The AESA radar is new and will only get some parts of the radar that is available in the Gripen C/D. The engine will be completely new and not only slightly upgraded. IRST is not available on the Gripen at all and will be a new tech as well...
As you can see, there are clear points why the Gripen far away from beeing mature, proven, or tested, especially as long as it is available only as a tech demonstrator yet.



luckyyy said:


> the procces of selecting the mmrca is in final stages and not in the initial stages...
> do we need to remind ourself what is the final stage.......*Commertical Bidding..*
> 
> therefore the chances of L1 bidder ....only winning.....




Wrong! First comes the shortlistings of those fighters that suites our requirements, be it technical of IAF, offset, ToT... of MoD. When that is done, we will receive the final bids of the vendors and MoD will take a decision about it hopefully next summer.


----------



## sancho

angeldemon_007 said:


> Thats what i am saying that wasn't gripen NG. They never fielded NG for trial because it was called back for operational clearance because of some problems in upgrades.



Rafter is right, Saab fielded the Gripen NG in the trials, but only to do the Leh flights once again after the Gripen C/D made all the trials before. Which also shows that delays are more than likely, because it's just under development and has no orders yet.


----------



## luckyyy

sancho said:


> First comes the shortlistings of those fighters that suites our requirements, be it technical of IAF, offset, ToT... of MoD. When that is done, we will receive the final bids of the vendors and MoD will take a decision about it hopefully next summer.



all six suits IAF requirement , so did IAF cleared all in technical evaluation and field trial...

it will be MoD now which will take decision on offset & commertcial bidding only..

the shortlisting will be now based on only offset & bidding..


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## sancho

luckyyy said:


> *all six suits IAF requirement , so did IAF cleared all in technical evaluation and field trial...*


*

How do you know, did you see the evaluation report IAF passed to the MoD?
All 6 fighters were cleared to enter the technical evaluation, but only during the technical evaluation IAF can find out if the infos the vendors provided are correct and suits IAF requirements.*


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## Mani2020

When will the MRCA be finalized?

Is there any kind of short-listing of the aircrafts or still all six are competing?


----------



## luckyyy

sancho said:


> *How do you know, did you see the evaluation report IAF passed to the MoD?*
> All 6 fighters were cleared to enter the technical evaluation, but only during the technical evaluation IAF can find out if the infos the vendors provided are correct and suits IAF requirements.



feild trails conducted only after technical evaluations..
yes , all 6 has been cleared by IAF in the technical and field trails...

i find no logic going personal saying " did you see the evaluation report IAF passed to the MoD?....


----------



## sancho

luckyyy said:


> feild trails conducted only after technical evaluations..
> yes , all 6 has been cleared by IAF in the technical and field trails...
> 
> i find no logic going personal saying " did you see the evaluation report IAF passed to the MoD?....



Field trials = technical evaluation! Before that, IAF just evalueted the specifications about the fighters that the vendors, nothing more. So that was the theory and now they did the practical evaluation and only now they will be able to say which fighters suits their requirements and which not.
That wasn't personal, but you claim things that nobody knows so far and maybe don't even come out after the shortlistings, because IAF/MoD normally won't officially comment on technical points. That's why I wanted to understand how you get to this conclusion.
Try to understand that so far we still just check which fighters and bids suits our requirements, those who fulfill them will be shortlisted and only then we will get the final bids of the vendors and *then* MoD might chose the L1 bidder. But once again, L1 from those who were shortlisted, not from all 6 contenders and L1 does not mean the lowest unit cost, but includes life cycle, or ToT costs too.


----------



## luckyyy

sancho said:


> Field trials = technical evaluation! Before that, IAF just evalueted the specifications about the fighters that the vendors, nothing more. So that was the theory and now they did the practical evaluation and only now they will be able to say which fighters suits their requirements and which not.
> That wasn't personal, but you claim things that nobody knows so far and maybe don't even come out after the shortlistings, because IAF/MoD normally won't officially comment on technical points. That's why I wanted to understand how you get to this conclusion.
> Try to understand that so far we still just check which fighters and bids suits our requirements, those who fulfill them will be shortlisted and only then we will get the final bids of the vendors and *then* MoD might chose the L1 bidder. But once again, L1 from those who were shortlisted, not from all 6 contenders and L1 does not mean the lowest unit cost, but includes life cycle, or ToT costs too.



technical evaluation was studed before the feild trails, there IAF check with each vendor about their fighter specification and findout is they fit in IAF requirments...remember , there was a news that rafale didn't fullfill during technical evaluation but later matter sorted and it take part in field trails..
*IAF has repeatdly made statements that they has cleared all six in feild trails and not downselect anyone ,* the report submitted to MoD..enough material available on net , ..

currently offset proposals are under study of all six...natually opening commercial bidding will follow next ,* for all six *..

what made you think that MoD will ask for offset and bidding for a aircraft which hasn't fullfill the IAF requirements..


----------



## sancho

luckyyy said:


> technical evaluation was studed before the feild trails, there IAF check with each vendor about their fighter specification and findout is they fit in IAF requirments...remember , there was a news that rafale didn't fullfill during technical evaluation but later matter sorted and it take part in field trails..
> *IAF has repeatdly made statements that they has cleared all six in feild trails and not downselect anyone , the report submitted to MoD..enough material available on net , ..
> 
> currently offset proposals are under study of all six...natually opening commercial bidding will follow next , for all six ..*


*


Once again, they cleared the proposals of the vendors to the field trials!
The field trials are the technical evaluation!*


----------



## angeldemon_007

> Rafter is right, Saab fielded the Gripen NG in the trials, but only to do the Leh flights once again after the Gripen C/D made all the trials before.


Look man....i really want to know where you got this info, i posted the link that suggested that NG was never fielded, please give some official source suggesting NG was fielded during Leh testing...I am just curious
Also when gripen NG is fielded and tested then what is the problem, this means atleast we have seen what we are getting but in other cases we have not even seen what actually we are getting. Rafale and typhoon tested by IAF never even had aesa or thrust vectoring as claimed by typhoon.



> Rafale F3 which is in use of French forces now, will just get some tech upgrades, to the the F3+ level that is offered for us. RBE 2 PESA radar will be RBE 2 AESA, M88-2 engine will be M88 - 2 E4, some upgrades on the avionics...


AESA in Rafale is already tested but they have not yet started upgrading their fighter. 



> Also the techs that will be available with the new Gripen, are new developments, not just upgrades.


According to IAF's requirement none of the fighter are suitable. Every fighter had to include some new technology to meet the requirement. Like Rafale, they didn't had AESA they now developed it. Eurofighter didn't have AESA and thrust vectoring tech, but they are developing.



> The AESA radar is new and will only get some parts of the radar that is available in the Gripen C/D.


Sorry i didn't get your point. Gripen had a fully developed aesa long before Rafale, eurofighter and MIG35 and it is tested on the fighter. Mig35 and Rafale has also developed their aesa and typhoon will also develop in future but the point is these things have to tested.
Look buddy if it is upto me i would select typhoon, but its the most expensive in the competition.


> The engine will be completely new and not only slightly upgraded.


I can't find enough but i think you are mistaken, Gripen NG will be fielded with GE414. Right now it works on Volvo Aero Corporation RM12 which is jointly developed by Volvo-GE for Gripen and is completely based on General Electric F-404-400 (80 KN (18,000lb) thrust class).
Look man, they are just going of thrust increase. As per gripen website its just is simple upgrade and according to my opinion if the facts written are true then its something we should not be worried.


> IRST is not available on the Gripen at all and will be a new tech as well...


Wow man....really i salute you....plz share the intel with us, after all this is why we are here....
Bye the way, i don't see IRST as a feature that would effect too much as it is available in many flying machines and i think Sweden must have tested it on any of them.
Also gripen has the best data link which is important for the mission completion.
Just tell me one thing....recently rafale started falling down, if tomorrow France start to field down their Rafale then what we will do. Look it might not appear as a big problem to you but this is one of the problem which is drawing rafale back. On the other hand gripen is already 270 on order, same with eurofighter.
Although the thing which is against gripen is their borrowed parts from all over the world. 
I think that 3 supplier agreement was meant only for this.


----------



## the rafter

angeldemon_007 said:


> Look man....i really want to know where you got this info, i posted the link that suggested that NG was never fielded, please give some official source suggesting NG was fielded during Leh testing...I am just curious
> Also when gripen NG is fielded and tested then what is the problem, this means atleast we have seen what we are getting but in other cases we have not even seen what actually we are getting. Rafale and typhoon tested by IAF never even had aesa or thrust vectoring as claimed by typhoon.



FLASH! Gripen Demo Clears Leh Trials!
WEDNESDAY, MAY 19, 2010
The Gripen Demo aircraft, which landed at Air Force Station Jamnagar, Gujarat on Monday, cleared its high altitude trials in Leh today. Air Force sources confirmed to LiveFist that the aircraft went through the full routine of tests that the Gripen-D did earlier this year. IAF pilots already got a chance to fly the Gripen Demo in the first week of April at Linkoping, Sweden, but calling the Demo airplane to India was necessary to complete all the demands in the field evaluation test (FET) plan.
Livefist - Indian Defence & Aerospace: FLASH! Gripen Demo Clears Leh Trials!

Gripen NG Demo To Land In Bangalore Mid-May!
FRIDAY, APRIL 02, 2010
I guess this clears up the debate. For those who were wondering why the Gripen Demo wasn't participating in the trials, the aircraft (see my earlier post) will arrive in India in the middle of May to wrap up the India-phase of MMRCA trials for Saab's JAS-39. A pair of Gripen-Ds recently completed trials in the country at Bangalore, Leh and Jaisalmer.
Livefist - Indian Defence & Aerospace: Gripen NG Demo To Land In Bangalore Mid-May!

"The Gripen Demo aircraft is a flying test platform for the next generation of Gripen and for the further development of the present Gripen C/D aircraft. Together with a ground-based test rig, the Gripen Demonstrator will develop and prove the essential systems and capabilities for the future, including its more powerful General Electric F414G engine, an Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar, advanced communications and electronic warfare systems."
Gripen - The wings of your nation - Gripen Supercruises


Gripen Nervous About Ferrying Demo Aircraft To India, But Confident Of Repeat Performance In MMRCA Trials
FRIDAY, APRIL 23, 2010
The Indian Air Force evaluation team that was in Europe for phase-3 flight evaluation trials (FETs) of the Eurofighter Typhoon and Gripen Demo was stranded on the continent by the Icelandic ash cloud. Not sure if they're back yet, but they had a fantastic time in Linkoping, Sweden, during the first week of this month when a member of the IAF team became the first non-Swedish pilot to fly the Gripen Demo from the front cockpit. The team had eight flights in the aicraft, and will fly it again next month. The Gripen Demo will touch down in Jamnagar on May 17, after which the IAF will decide the sequence of trials the airplane will be put through.

While the Gripen people are still basking in the rumours and feedback about how well their pair of Gripen-Ds performed during the India phase of the evaluations, the team is palpably nervous about ferrying the Gripen Demo to India. Met up with Gripen's MMRCA campaign head Eddy de la Motte a couple of days ago. He told me, "While we are very confident that the Demo will perform perfectly in what is demanded of it, we hope there are no problems in bringing it to India. We will be hopping it across from Sweden to India. *We don't foresee any problems, but it is after all a prototype, and we can't be too careful."* The IAF is likely to put the Gripen Demo through the full gamut of trials in Bangalore, Jaisalmer and Leh, though probably not in that order. In many ways, evaluating the Gripen Demo will be like testing an entirely different airplane, substantively different as it is from the original that flew in India last month.
http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/04/saab-nervous-about-ferrying-demo.html

Gripen NG also referred to as a 'DEMO' because ONLY FEW PROTOTYPES EXIST! It has not began serial production and NO COUNTRY including swedish air force has it. (In June 2010, Saab stated that Sweden plans to order the Gripen NG under the JAS 39E/F designation. The new variant is to enter Swedish service in 2017 or possibly earlier if export orders are received).
I hope this info convinces you?


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## angeldemon_007

@ the rafter
Thanx man....its better than googling...


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## luckyyy

sancho said:


> Once again, they cleared the proposals of the vendors to the field trials!
> The field trials are the technical evaluation!



field trails are over.......

what made you think that MoD will ask for offset and bidding for a aircraft which hasn't fullfill the IAF requirements..


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## SpArK

*Luftwaffe pits Eurofighter against Su-30MKI (David and Goliath):​*

*Note: Errors due to translation maybe there.-SpArK
*

*David and Goliath*

Bareilly, India, 30.12.2010.


The Sukhoi Su-27 "Flanker" and its two-seat Indian development, the Su-30 MKI are aviation enthusiasts for many the epitome of highly agile fighter aircraft. Those who do not have the incredible "Cobra" - the major international aviation exhibitions in wonder amazed to maneuver and wondered: "Who's there's a chance in a dogfight?"

The answer is: The Air Force - and with the Euro Fighter







*The Su-30 is impressive for its sheer size *


The Sukhoi Su-30 MKI is a two-seat advanced variant of the Russian Sukhoi Su-27 interceptor "Flanker", equipped with the latest avionics from different nations, including Russia, Israel, France and India. It is the product of cooperation of Russian and Indian defense industry and also a thrust vector control provided with the machine itself means that it also maneuvers beyond the purely aerodynamic as possible, in the so-called "post stall" - to take wraps, area.





_Lt. Col. Frank Simon,Su-30MKI._

*Unique opportunity to compare*

Lt. Col. Frank Simon was the right man for such a task. As a former pilot of a MiG 29, both the air forces of the NVA and the Fighter Wing 73 "Steinhoff" (JG 73 S), he has an in-designed machine Russia flown both, and the permission to &#8364; Fighter to fly the modern.

"So this flight was a special feature, and I looked forward with great anticipation to the experience. Equally excited as I was Lieutenant-Colonel Frank Neurath from &#8364; Fighter-type escort from Manching. He accompanied me on this trip to India. "
When creating the suit had already Simon his first-Deja Vu: "The Indian Flanker pilots use the same Russian anti-G trousers that we on the MiG-29 took advantage of it."

Then Simon became the Backseat of his pilots a briefing for the upcoming flight: As the ejection seat to operate it, a brief presentation of the Flanker and admission to the cockpit and the planned maneuvers and procedures.





_Su-30 in the mountains_

*Cobras in the Himalayas*

"In the training room by the breathtaking scenery of the Himalayas, it goes right down to business. My Indian pilot demonstrated to me how close and hard to maneuver Su-30 can and then even makes me try the same. We fly a variety of maneuvers with and without thrust vectoring, Immelmann, loop, and finally the cobra maneuver. " And although the Jets still below the Himalayan peaks are, the air would seem for the engines of the Sukhoi quite thin, because The Indian pilot like "the cobra" of the nose diagonally to the bottom only and do not move up because he probably fears that the incoming air is not sufficient for the combustion of oxygen to support the aircraft.


"In the end we still practice how to deal with the Flanker with the aid of the thrust vector control an opponent, attacking from the rear, out-maneuvered and can shoot. To this end, pull the edge after a hard curve sharply upward - based on her like a cobra. The steep attitude you get into a low speed range in which to counteract the thrust vector control. Now we turn so the thrust vector control - and the elegant nose of the Sukhoi falls at a rapid pace down to the astonished enemy to target the same: to speed with the helmet visor, an infrared missile opponents intrude on - and off it. " So much for theory ...






_Size comparison_

*Lesson in physics*

"Then I ask the pilot, he should do so again, while the nose quickly over the horizon to bring back order to follow the enemy, if our intention recognizes and tries to climb over us: But not just that he creates. Nose of the Flanker - despite thrust vector control - too heavy for planned maneuvers that. The " A &#8364; Fighter would now easy game: The Flanker is sluggish in the air without the speed. "We are the same try again at the end of the flight - with the same result .

In this case the result is not so amazing: Has she passed the Cobra maneuver was successful and the enemy pilot this is not recognized in time, then the Flanker-C possibly the winner of the duel. However, the Cobra maneuver is alive - no matter who runs what pilots and aircraft - even a little of the legend, as an experienced opponent can guess this maneuver. 

The rest is done by the inertia of the mass: A heavy fighter aircraft like the Flanker-C is disadvantaged by its high weight if it is set by its exceptional aerodynamics and powerful engines only in a position to take wraps to such a maneuver in general, which Most fighters do not make - not even with a thrust vector control. Just the Treibstoffzuladung the Sukhoi over nine tons weight reached nearly empty weight of the &#8364; Fighters themselves: Flanker-C is a heavy weight, a Goliath, even with its strong engine here at a - pushes limits - physical.







_Defensive measures of EF_

*Information is everything*

The knowledge is sometimes not so new, not necessarily because they already can read on Wikipedia, but also because the Flanker even at one or another international flight maneuvers here and was impressed experienced pilots but by a spectacular performance, but not take advantage of them: A maneuver is only as good as it is able to afford - in the real application, where it arrives within a few seconds later to make the right decision.


For one or the other young Euro Fighter pilots this knowledge will be a valuable pillow, for the extraordinary handling characteristics of &#8364; Fighters to the air force pilots, the aerodynamic and technical ability to escape the Cobra maneuver, while this would be combat aircraft of the third generation is usually overwhelming.






Su-30 starts


*Duel of the best*

Finally, one must ask why this recognition already so public was not, sometimes an indication that the pilots of the NATO and so successful were the past, because they often exerted significantly as, for example, pilots on a MiG-21 former Warsaw Pact countries. But even without the reference to the better practice practice, the Western world from this multi-purpose aircraft have respect for that part of the American F-15E Strike Eagle inspired was his in and one way or another exercise with NATO partners, their weapons systems offered Paroli. The U.S. armed forces even bought in May 2009, two Su-27 Flanker, the electronic warfare better able to assess, opportunities - and thus the results of our own and future weapon systems in comparison.






*EF starts*

Of course, all weapons systems have their strengths and weaknesses. *Because the Flanker as an interceptor designed and heavier in military service introduced was the original, it can be in the action described by the much smaller and lighter &#8364; Fighter can not compete, which, subsequently, a better thrust / weight ratio of the day creates what the Luftwaffenjet in fictional scenario to explain this would be winning on points.

However, one must consider when comparing all weapon systems, such maneuvers that the detail of a reality show ever. In real use it would likely be such that the two pilots, with its extensive arsenal of weapons from a distance fight - ever seen to have potential at all without the enemy. And of course, is the Su-30 MKI Cobra maneuver without a never to be underestimated opponent. Your experienced Indian pilots can now focus on maneuvers with the thrust vector control to take wraps extraordinary new. For your own purpose and location of such exchanges including thought - for both sides shall be a win-win situation one.
*
*For the Air Force and all the nations that have concerned the &#8364; Fighter, is the knowledge that their weapon system, which has been since its introduction in constant development, the amount of time and that you have made with the technology support Euro Fighter is the right choice.*



David und Goliath

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## sancho

Rafter already gave you the links to Gripen NG, but let me correct some more points.



angeldemon_007 said:


> Also when gripen NG is fielded and tested then what is the problem, this means atleast we have seen what we are getting but in other cases we have not even seen what actually we are getting. Rafale and typhoon tested by IAF never even had aesa or thrust vectoring as claimed by typhoon.



Rafale came to India in 2009 with an working AESA radar and most likely with all the changes that are on offer for India, because they presented most of those in the trials in Swiss too. The French AESA is ready and serial production even started, the first delivery of the new Rafales is planed by next year, while Gripen and EF plans with flight test of the final AESA radar only around 2013.
Gripen NG came only as a tech demonstrator, with pre versions of the systems that could be available and only some capabilities that are planed. All it did was ground and some flight tests, while weapon test was made by older Gripens only.



angeldemon_007 said:


> According to IAF's requirement none of the fighter are suitable. Every fighter had to include some new technology to meet the requirement.


That's not correct! The reports you mean says, every fighter had some issues, but they all were able to end the trials. That doesn't mean they need new techs, or tells us something about the outcome of the tests, but that IAF was able to do the test.
I doubt IAF had required that all techs and capabilities must be ready, but the more the better and that gives them a hint on how long it takes till these capabilities will be ready.
So far we know that the US fighters and the Rafale are the most mature fighters, while EF is operational, but very late in developing the upgrade, Gripen and the Mig still don't have final prototypes now.



angeldemon_007 said:


> Look man, they are just going of thrust increase. As per gripen website its just is simple upgrade and according to my opinion if the facts written are true then its something we should not be worried.



Don't take the PR of the vendors fro granted! The Volvo RM12 engine is basically an GE 404, but Volvo has the licence production rights and integrated around 40% of own parts. The GE 414 is a further developed engine of the GE 404, but will have no Swedish parts at all, so the engines will be different, but more over the airframe needs changes as well, just like LCA MK2 needs changes to house the engine and get enough airflow as well. Rafale instead will have the same airframe and the same engine, with upgrades only in the engine itself, to make it more cost-effevtive.




angeldemon_007 said:


> Just tell me one thing....recently rafale started falling down, if tomorrow France start to field down their Rafale then what we will do. Look it might not appear as a big problem to you but this is one of the problem which is drawing rafale back. On the other hand gripen is already 270 on order, same with eurofighter.



Please do some research and you will find out that the Rafale crash was caused most likely by an pilot error and that they were flying shortly after that issue again, so that's really not a point.
Also there are not 270 Gripen on order, only something around 200 (CZE and HUN leased Gripen from the original order of Swedish forces), Rafale now has around 180 on order, with the plan to order 250 to 280.
The difference is that the Rafales will be upgraded to the same level as ours if we buy them, while the upgraded C/Ds might get only some techs that are now in testing in the Gripen NG (AESA and data links are likely, IRST or new EWS? The GE414 engine not, because Volvo is offering an RM12 uprgade for the older too). That means while there are hundreds of Rafales, EFs and Super Hornets that needs *the same* future upgrades, only 80 F16s and maybe not even 50 Migs, or Gripen E/Fs would be there from other operators. So if we buy those, we have to pay for a big part of future upgrades as well, that's why the Mig although low unit costs, will be very expensive to maintain and keep them upgraded.

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## SpArK

@sancho..

*Whats ur opinion over the article i have posted?Its ur own luftwaffe report!!!*

Benny

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## sancho

luckyyy said:


> field trails are over.......
> 
> what made you think that MoD will ask for offset and bidding for a aircraft which hasn't fullfill the IAF requirements..



Because that is part of the requirements, the technical side by IAF, while MoD makes the requirements about offsets and financial bids. No matter what the technical evaluation said, the vendors had to make their proposals to MoD too and they will base the shortlisting on both the evaluation report of IAF and the proposals of the vendors.
Did you for get that the initial timeline of the proposals was not met and that the vendors had to make new once, because of the delays of the competition? After the shortlistings we will even get new and final proposals of those vendors who entered the final stage.

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## sancho

SpArK said:


> @sancho..
> 
> *Whats ur opinion over the article i have posted?Its ur own luftwaffe report!!!*
> 
> Benny



Just read it in German once again and it is interesting, but not surprising. We knew before that the twin seat config will add much weight to the already high weight of the bigger Flanker series. The EF instead is a medium class air superiority fighter, aimed to counter exactly these Flankers. I would expect the single seat Su 35 with better T/W ratio and TVC to fulfill those manouvers and be more comparable to the EF, but for IAFs possible opponents the MKI will be more than a match in WVR for sure. 
That's also why it was also not surprising that IAF was impressed by the EF during the recent exercises, because they were aimed on A2A combats. In the A2G field instead, the MKI is way more capable, be in because of the available weapons, more range and payload..., so it would be more surprising if IAF was impressed by the EF in this field as well.

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## SpArK

sancho said:


> Just read it in German once again and it is interesting, but not surprising. We knew before that the twin seat config will add much weight to the already high weight of the bigger Flanker series. The EF instead is a medium class air superiority fighter, aimed to counter exactly these Flankers. I would expect the single seat Su 35 with better T/W ratio and TVC to fulfill those manouvers and be more comparable to the EF, but for IAFs possible opponents the MKI will be more than a match in WVR for sure.
> That's also why it was also not surprising that IAF was impressed by the EF during the recent exercises, because they were aimed on A2A combats. In the A2G field instead, the MKI is way more capable, be in because of the available weapons, more range and payload..., so it would be more surprising if IAF was impressed by the EF in this field as well.



Excellent, and i believe this is the first hands on review of the exercise we had with EF.


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## sancho

SpArK said:


> Excellent, and i believe this is the first hands on review of the exercise we had with EF.



That's actually what makes me curious, because this is a German Luftwaffe pilot, not an RAF pilot. The Germans were in India only during Aero India, when they presented the EFs, so the article might be new, but don't have to be from a real exercise.

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## SpArK

sancho said:


> That's actually what makes me curious, because this is a German Luftwaffe pilot, not an RAF pilot. The Germans were in India only during Aero India, when they presented the EFs, so the article might be new, but don't have to be from a real exercise.



Lt. Col. Frank Simon, seems to be a name of a RAF pilot to me and the analysis is based on his views which Luftwaffe took as they share the same platform.


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## sancho

SpArK said:


> Lt. Col. Frank Simon, seems to be a name of a RAF pilot to me and the analysis is based on his views which Luftwaffe took as they share the same platform.



No, he is German and as the article says, an ex Mig 29 pilot and now is in the EF Jagdgeschwader 73 Steinhoff (JG 73 S).
Will try to find out when these flight happens, maybe someone in a German forum can help me out.

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## SpArK

sancho said:


> No, he is German and as the article says, an ex Mig 29 pilot and now is in the EF Jagdgeschwader 73 Steinhoff (JG 73 S).
> Will try to find out when these flight happens, maybe someone in a German forum can help me out.



Okay.. go get it .. Tigerrr.....


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## SpArK

*The ultimate death stare: New RAF helmet allows pilots to shoot down enemy jets by looking at them​*
By DAILY MAIL REPORTER
3rd January 2011


*Pilot can glance at an aircraft he wants to fire a missile at by using his mind*

It looks no more high-tech than any other fighter pilot helmet.
But this £250,000 headset allows RAF pilots to shoot down planes simply by looking at them.
The Striker Integrated Display Helmet marks one of the biggest leaps forward in attack capabilities in military history.




_How it works: The £250,000 'Striker' Integrated Display Helmet allows RAF pilots to shoot down planes simply by looking at them. As long as the enemy's aircraft is in sight, a missile can be directed towards it
_


All a pilot has to do is glance at an enemy aircraft and then steer a missile towards it with his, or her, mind.
Targets pop-up in the pilot's visor, at which point he can select by voice command and fire.

As long as the enemy's aircraft is in sight - whether that be below, above or to either side - a missile can be directed towards it.
The breakthrough brings to an end the century-old concept of the aerial dogfight, in which one plane must be directly behind another in order to hit it with firepower.

The innovative two-part helmet design has been co-developed with aircrew and logistic support engineering participation.
It works by using tiny optical sensors in the Striker helmet, which are then picked up by further sensors in the cockpit.




_In flight: The helmet has undergone extensive testing in RAF Typhoon aircraft​_
'It means the end of the dogfight,' leading pilot Mark Bowman told The Sun.
'Traditionally you have to get behind an aircraft to lock on. With this, I steer the weapons with my head.'
The helmet has been developed by Britain's BAE Systems and has been subjected to extensive flight trials in RAF Typhoon planes.
A spokesperson for BAE said: 'An advanced optical head tracker is integrated into the helmet system to provide a high accuracy/low latency solution for low, medium, and high altitude operations.
'While the system has been designed for the Eurofighter Typhoon, its modular design can be applied to all platforms, both rotary and fixed wing.'




*Tiny optical sensors in the helmet pick up when the pilot locks onto enemy aircraft, and this is then picked up by further sensors in the cockpit​*
Read more: New RAF helmet allows pilots to shoot down enemy jets by looking at them | Mail Online


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## sancho

sancho said:


> Will try to find out when these flight happens, maybe someone in a German forum can help me out.



Forgot that it was Luftwaffe EFs, that were send to India to do the trials early 2010, so these flights should be made around that time.


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## SpArK

sancho said:


> Forgot that it was Luftwaffe EFs, that were send to India to do the trials early 2010, so these flights should be made around that time.



So it wasn't any air exercise ,but the trials we are looking at.


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## HongWu

I think India will choose F-18, because MMS wants to go with USA. The delay is because some group of IAF officers want to go Russian or European. Now the delay is ending, it means MMS is pushing for quick acceptance of US offer.

F-18 will also give India access to F-35. India's strategic thinking should be that it wants to balance between Russia and USA. So it wants participation in T-50 related Russian programs and it wants to participate in F-35. The IN will also want F-35.

The least likely is Rafale or Eurofighter because they are too expensive. The cost of ownership over lifetime, not just the upfront costs, would be tremendous too.

Mig-35 is unlikely because that would be interpreted as a snub to USA. MMS's nose is firmly behind USA.

Gripen is a possibility though. It suits India's needs (just like LCA is supposed to suit India's needs). But I still think the F-35 offer and USA alliance is too sweet for MMS to pass up.

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## sancho

SpArK said:


> So it wasn't any air exercise ,but the trials we are looking at.



Don't think that this was a part of the trials, but some flights around the time, yes.


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## GareebNawaz

HongWu said:


> I think India will choose F-18, because MMS wants to go with USA. The delay is because some group of IAF officers want to go Russian or European. Now the delay is ending, it means MMS is pushing for quick acceptance of US offer.
> 
> F-18 will also give India access to F-35. India's strategic thinking should be that it wants to balance between Russia and USA. So it wants participation in T-50 related Russian programs and it wants to participate in F-35. The IN will also want F-35.
> 
> The least likely is Rafale or Eurofighter because they are too expensive. The cost of ownership over lifetime, not just the upfront costs, would be tremendous too.



F-16 will automatically mean access to F-35 remember Lockheed Martin makes F-35s not Boeing. We might have a possiblity for F-35 if we opt for F/A-18 but not as great.


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## GORKHALI

MILITARY AVIATION AND SPACE TECHNOLOGY NEWS: France orders Meteor missiles for Rafales


France orders Meteor
missiles for Rafales BY FLIGHT GLOBAL-France has ordered 200 Meteor beyond
visual-range air-to-air
missiles, making it the third
nation to commit to the
production phase of the
MBDA programme. The ramjet-engined Meteor
will arm Dassault Rafale
fighters in French air force
and navy service, with
deliveries to commence in
2018, the nation's DGA procurement agency says.
MBDA UK was notified of the
contract award on 22
December 2010, it adds.
The UK is the lead buyer for
the Meteor, having signed a development and production
contract in 2002. Its
acquisition is projected as
valuing around &#163;1.3 billion
($2.0 billon), according to
data included in the UK National Audit Office's Major
Projects Report 2010
publication. The type should
enter operational use around
2015, although MBDA expects
to complete certification activities by next year.
Sweden also in September
2010 signed a production
order for the Meteor, which
will arm its air force's Saab
Gripens. Sweden's Defence Materiel Administration (FMV)
expects the type to become
operational in 2015.
Other partners to the Meteor
programme who have yet to
sign production orders for the BVRAAM design are
Eurofighter operators
Germany, Italy and Spain. The
type is also being offered to
potential export operators of
the Typhoon, Gripen and Rafale, and touted by MBDA
as a candidate weapon
system for the Lockheed
Martin F-35 Joint Strike
Fighter.


Great news indeed for rafale lovers lol:


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## luckyyy

kapoor said:


> The ramjet-engined Meteor will arm Dassault Rafale fighters in French air force and navy service, *with deliveries to commence in 2018, *
> Great news indeed for rafale lovers lol:



indeed rafale lovers can dance , only after 2018..............


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## luckyyy

angeldemon_007 said:


> Also when gripen NG is fielded and tested then what is the problem, this means atleast we have seen what we are getting but in other cases we have not even seen what actually we are getting. Rafale and typhoon tested by IAF never even had aesa or thrust vectoring as claimed by typhoon.
> 
> 
> AESA in Rafale is already tested but they have not yet started upgrading their fighter.
> 
> 
> According to IAF's requirement none of the fighter are suitable. Every fighter had to include some new technology to meet the requirement. Like Rafale, they didn't had AESA they now developed it. Eurofighter didn't have AESA and thrust vectoring tech, but they are developing.
> 
> 
> Sorry i didn't get your point. Gripen had a fully developed aesa long before Rafale, eurofighter and MIG35 and it is tested on the fighter. Mig35 and Rafale has also developed their aesa and typhoon will also develop in future but the point is these things have to tested.
> Look buddy if it is upto me i would select typhoon, but its the most expensive in the competition.
> 
> I can't find enough but i think you are mistaken, Gripen NG will be fielded with GE414. Right now it works on Volvo Aero Corporation RM12 which is jointly developed by Volvo-GE for Gripen and is completely based on General Electric F-404-400 (80 KN (18,000lb) thrust class).
> Look man, they are just going of thrust increase. As per gripen website its just is simple upgrade and according to my opinion if the facts written are true then its something we should not be worried.
> 
> Wow man....really i salute you....plz share the intel with us, after all this is why we are here....
> Bye the way, i don't see IRST as a feature that would effect too much as it is available in many flying machines and i think Sweden must have tested it on any of them.
> Also gripen has the best data link which is important for the mission completion.
> Just tell me one thing....recently rafale started falling down, if tomorrow France start to field down their Rafale then what we will do. Look it might not appear as a big problem to you but this is one of the problem which is drawing rafale back. On the other hand gripen is already 270 on order, same with eurofighter.
> Although the thing which is against gripen is their borrowed parts from all over the world.
> I think that 3 supplier agreement was meant only for this.



the best part of Gripen be that IAF can put the systems of their choice on it , but that could also be it's worst part to in term of technology gains...
http://www.stratpost.com/gripen-hardsells-new-aesa-radar-low-cost-for-mmrca
but i maintain that Gripen and MIG-35 would be the last two on negotiating table..


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## RajeHind

HongWu said:


> I think India will choose F-18, because MMS wants to go with USA. The delay is because some group of IAF officers want to go Russian or European. Now the delay is ending, it means MMS is pushing for quick acceptance of US offer.
> 
> F-18 will also give India access to F-35. India's strategic thinking should be that it wants to balance between Russia and USA. So it wants participation in T-50 related Russian programs and it wants to participate in F-35. The IN will also want F-35.
> 
> The least likely is Rafale or Eurofighter because they are too expensive. The cost of ownership over lifetime, not just the upfront costs, would be tremendous too.
> 
> Mig-35 is unlikely because that would be interpreted as a snub to USA. MMS's nose is firmly behind USA.
> 
> Gripen is a possibility though. It suits India's needs (just like LCA is supposed to suit India's needs). But I still think the F-35 offer and USA alliance is too sweet for MMS to pass up.




Apart from MMS bashing, ur post is reasonable one.


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## luckyyy

extimated cost of fighter aircraft (year 2006)

Rafale = USD135ml (114ml euro) 
Gripen =USD76ml 
F-18 =USD95ml
Eurofighter=USD140ml (118ml euro) 

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/dae/articles/communiques/FighterCostFinalJuly06.pdf


----------



## syntax_error

*$10 billion mistake? IAS officers under lens*

NEW DELHI: Even as the race for the "mother of all defence deals" enters the last lap, two IAS officers of the defence ministry are now under the scanner for the mysterious way in which a "secret" file connected to the $10.4 billion project to acquire 126 new fighters went missing and was then found by a roadside.

Ordering an inquiry into the episode, defence minister A K Antony on Monday said he was "very clear that every officer has to be very careful at every stage" while dealing with the huge MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft) project. "We have viewed the incident seriously...the inquiry is in progress," he said. It was last week that the "secret" file, which was earlier submitted to the MoD by IAF, went missing and was then found later in the day near Khelgaon Marg in South Delhi.

The file dealt with the technical offsets evaluation of the bids submitted by the six global aviation majors, whose fighters have already been extensively trial evaluated by IAF pilots over the last couple of years.

The MMRCA contract specifies an obligation of 50% offsets, under which the foreign aviation major who is finally selected will be required to plough half of the contract forex value back into India.

MoD was tight-lipped about the incident but sources said the file was apparently lost by the bureaucrats, one an additional secretary-rank officer and the other a director, while being taken to the Bharat Electronics Limited guest-house on Khelgaon Marg. The file was found by a security guard who then got in touch with the authorities concerned.

The episode has evoked widespread concern since the gigantic MMRCA project is being bitterly contested by the six vendors. The fighters in the race are the American F/A-18 'Super Hornet' ( Boeing) and F-16 'Falcon' ( Lockheed Martin) Russian MiG-35 (RAC MiG), Swedish Gripen (Saab), French Rafale (Dassault) and Eurofighter Typhoon (consortium of British, German, Spanish and Italian companies). "A single file or document cannot, of course, influence the process of selection. But the offsets file is definitely commercially sensitive for the vendors in terms of who they are tying up with in India, among other things," said a senior official.

Links:$10 billion mistake? IAS officers under lens - The Times of India


Really Sad .. when will we learn to be proactive rather than reactive ...


----------



## sancho

kapoor said:


> Great news indeed for rafale lovers lol:



That contract *for French forces* was planed for the end of 2010 anyway, also that they will buy them later only to replace MICA EM from service. The missile for Rafale itself should be available ealier and a final date for the integration would be more interesting. Like the blog also says, Sweden plans to have the missile operational in their older Gripens by 2015.




luckyyy said:


> extimated cost of fighter aircraft (year 2006)
> 
> Rafale = USD135ml (114ml euro)
> Gripen =USD76ml
> F-18 =USD95ml
> Eurofighter=USD140ml (118ml euro)
> 
> 
> http://www.defense-aerospace.com/dae/articles/communiques/FighterCostFinalJuly06.pdf




Not sure how reliable this calculation is, because it actually says the Rafale flyaway export cost is lower than of the Gripen C/D. 




> *TAXES:* VAT rates and export prices
> Prices used in this study are inclusive of value-added tax (VAT), where applicable, as the basis we
> used is the cost billed to national customers.
> Consequently, the export prices of European aircraft should be reduced by the amount of national
> VAT, which is not applicable on export contracts.* Thus, the basic export price of a single-seat
> Rafale C drops to 41.5 million euros ($ 49.8 million)* after deduction of Frances VAT of 19.6%...
> 
> ...*Saab-BAE Systems JAS-39 GRIPEN*
> Program Unit Cost : $ 76.07 million
> Unit Procurement Cost: $ 68.90 million (*$55.1 million excluding VAT*)


----------



## Hulk

I feel best deal is F-18, but scared of US sanctions. The other good deal is ET because we will get lot of TOT.


----------



## GareebNawaz

My vote for F/a-18 SH ( yes i am aware of not full ToT). Runner up EADS Eurofighter

---------- Post added at 04:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:59 PM ----------




RajeHind said:


> Apart from MMS bashing, ur post is reasonable one.



MMS is what and stands for what


----------



## luckyyy

sancho said:


> Not sure how reliable this calculation is, because it actually says the Rafale flyaway cost is lower than of the Gripen C/D.



confused ?,(as always) 
Program Unit Cost : it includes the cost of R&D and support systems and actually the cost the customer pays..

Unit Procurement Cost: it the cost of constructing the aircraft at the fectory..


it is the program unit cost that's matters...
Rafale = USD135ml (114ml euro) 
Gripen =USD76ml


----------



## doctor_who

*Raytheon will equip the fighters with new Super Hornet radar*

Aviation Systems Command U.S. Air Force concluded an agreement with U.S. company Raytheon a contract to manufacture and supply of radars APG-79 active phased array (AFAR3), said Defense Aerospace . The deal amounted to 52 million dollars. Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet. The new radars will be installed on fighter planes Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet.

According to Raytheon, it is the third order for the supply of radars to AFAR. Given the recent contract the company must pass the U.S. Navy 57 radars for fighter aircraft. It is expected that delivery of the first APG-79 will begin in October 2012. Work on the production of radar will be done at Raytheon in Mississippi, Massachusetts and Texas.


----------



## sancho

luckyyy said:


> confused ?,(as always)
> Program Unit Cost : it includes the cost of R&D and support systems and actually the cost the customer pays..
> 
> Unit Procurement Cost: it the cost of constructing the aircraft at the fectory..
> 
> 
> it is the program unit cost that's matters...
> Rafale = USD135ml (114ml euro)
> Gripen =USD76ml



 Yes I am confused to take a source that is comparing the price of fighters with Burgers as a reliable one!
Also you are mistaken again, the most reliable price to compare fighters with each other is the flyaway cost, because it is the basic cost of the fighter and the engines only and although I prefer the Rafale for India, I doubt that it is cheaper than the Gripen and that's what I said.


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## sancho

> *Agapanthe 2010 : mission accomplished*
> 
> Last December, 25th, the CdG and her airgroup have leaved the Pakistani cost after 31 days of non stop mission above Afghanistan.
> 180 missons were flew among which...
> 
> ...After a brief Stop at the UAE, *the CdG is sailing to India where it will participate in joint exercices with the India Navy*



Rafale News: Agapanthe 2010 : mission accomplished


The Greece airforce often train against the French navy Rafales in exercises and some missions was aimed on attacking the carrier from shore bases with their F16 and Mirage 2000s.
It would be interesting if IAF and IN would try something similar with MKI and Mig 29K + Phalcon AWACS. Not to mention that this is a great opportunity for IN to directly field their Mig 29Ks against Rafale Ms, that are participating in the competition for carrier fighters as well.


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## marcos98

*Anticipating MMRCA offsets, HAL planning large aero structures unit *
Anticipating MMRCA offsets, HAL planning large aero structures unit : Defense news


As Indias Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) competition is entering the decision phase, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) is planning to set up a large aero structures unit to take advantage of the possible offsets business arising out of the $10 billion deal. Irrespective of whichever company wins the MMRCA bid, they will have to partner with HAL to licence-manufacture the aircraft in India and are certain to select HAL as the offsets partner as well.

HAL director, Corporate Planning and Marketing, P. Soundara Rajan told defenseworld.net that memoranda of understanding had been signed with all the MMRCA bidders: Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Dassault, Saab, Eurofighter and MiG as possible offsets partner to meet a part of the 50% offsets arising out of the contract. He said the aero structures unit would meet the export opprtunies of the offsets work. HAL also expects to supply different systems designed and manufactured in HALs various divisions such as Hyderabad, Lucknow & Korwa against offset.

HAL has extensive experience in aero structures while dealing with international aerospace companies such as Airbus, Boeing, Ruag, IAI and Embraer.

These companies have been sourcing aero structures from HAL for some years now. Most of the contracts with these companies were entered into when there was no offsets obligations, he added. Recognizing HALs capability in timely and cost effective aerospace quality supplies, Boeing had recently conferred upon HAL, the Supplier of the year award, he added.


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## marcos98

SpArK said:


> *The ultimate death stare: New RAF helmet allows pilots to shoot down enemy jets by looking at them​*
> By DAILY MAIL REPORTER
> 3rd January 2011
> 
> 
> *Pilot can glance at an aircraft he wants to fire a missile at by using his mind*
> 
> It looks no more high-tech than any other fighter pilot helmet.
> But this &#163;250,000 headset allows RAF pilots to shoot down planes simply by looking at them.
> The &#8216;Striker&#8217; Integrated Display Helmet marks one of the biggest leaps forward in attack capabilities in military history.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _How it works: The &#163;250,000 'Striker' Integrated Display Helmet allows RAF pilots to shoot down planes simply by looking at them. As long as the enemy's aircraft is in sight, a missile can be directed towards it
> _
> 
> 
> All a pilot has to do is glance at an enemy aircraft and then steer a missile towards it with his, or her, mind.
> Targets pop-up in the pilot's visor, at which point he can select by voice command and fire.
> 
> As long as the enemy's aircraft is in sight - whether that be below, above or to either side - a missile can be directed towards it.
> The breakthrough brings to an end the century-old concept of the aerial dogfight, in which one plane must be directly behind another in order to hit it with firepower.
> 
> The innovative two-part helmet design has been co-developed with aircrew and logistic support engineering participation.
> It works by using tiny optical sensors in the Striker helmet, which are then picked up by further sensors in the cockpit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _In flight: The helmet has undergone extensive testing in RAF Typhoon aircraft​_
> 'It means the end of the dogfight,' leading pilot Mark Bowman told The Sun.
> 'Traditionally you have to get behind an aircraft to lock on. With this, I steer the weapons with my head.'
> The helmet has been developed by Britain's BAE Systems and has been subjected to extensive flight trials in RAF Typhoon planes.
> A spokesperson for BAE said: 'An advanced optical head tracker is integrated into the helmet system to provide a high accuracy/low latency solution for low, medium, and high altitude operations.
> 'While the system has been designed for the Eurofighter Typhoon, its modular design can be applied to all platforms, both rotary and fixed wing.'
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Tiny optical sensors in the helmet pick up when the pilot locks onto enemy aircraft, and this is then picked up by further sensors in the cockpit​*
> Read more: New RAF helmet allows pilots to shoot down enemy jets by looking at them | Mail Online

Reactions: Like Like:
3


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## truthseeker2010

but this helmet will only work in within visual range situations.


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## sancho

> *Contract Talks Moving Slowly On MMRCA*
> 
> Jan 5, 2011
> 
> By Neelam Mathews
> New Delhi
> 
> 
> India has proved once again that it cannot move too fast in acquiring a major weapon system.
> 
> Even as the evaluation of its Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) tender comes closer to its final stages, evidence is mounting that downselect winners will not learn of their acceptance until the fourth quarter instead of the first.
> 
> The MMRCA contract promises an order for 126 aircraft and is the largest military procurement pending in India. It has drawn bids from the Mikoyan MiG-35, Dassault Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon, Saab Gripen, Boeing F/A-18E/F and Lockheed Martin F-16.
> 
> India requires that any aircraft or weapon system introduced into service clear all tests and evaluations. All of the MMRCA candidates have completed user trials, including weapons, technical and maintainability evaluations. Currently, the bidders are being evaluated on their proposals for industrial offsets, with technology transfer to come next.
> 
> *Only when this process produces a short list will their commercial offers be evaluated. The downselect is expected to eliminate two or three of the six initial candidates, but nothing is definite.
> 
> Vendors, who were supposed to have their evaluations completed last April have already been required to extend or revise their bids until next April because the initial selection process bogged down.* If the defense ministry is not able to complete its downselect process by then, vendors will have to resubmit their bids and another years delay will ensue.
> 
> That raises the prospect that volatile financial markets might cause swings in currency rates that could change the value of the range of highest to lowest bidders significantly, given that rates are determined not when bids are received but when the commercial evaluation begins.
> 
> The holdup centers on terms for technology transfer, which must be completed with the main contract, a defense official explained. India requires that licensed production of the aircraftincluding engines, accessories, radars, systems and toolingbe covered by the tech-transfer proposal. The ministry holds refusal rights on any specific item, and suppliers must provide full life-cycle product support.
> 
> Vivek Lall, vice president of Boeing India, views the process positively, citing greater opportunities for the Indian defense industry to work with partnerships, or in collaboration with foreign companies that will likely continue to supply [the industry with] defense armaments and transfer of technology.
> 
> But analyst V. Siddhartha of the Center for Air Power Studies in New Delhi has reservations. There is no guarantee that the technology you get will not be state-controlled, he says.
> 
> Former Air Chief S.P. Tyagi says that opening up the market to foreign direct investment will be good for India. The current limit is just 26%. But that level is too small to give foreign investors a meaningful say in board decisions, he says.
> 
> *India sees everything from microtechnology and materials to prototype production emerging from MMRCAs tech transfers. Air Vice Marshal M. Matheswaran, the assistant chief of the air staff, says the country can leverage MMRCA to get what we want and persuade vendors to part with technology.*
> 
> Additionally, Indias domestic defense sector is favored by buy local and taxation arrangements. It also will likely require foreign firms to provide inputs into both platform and systems development, says Lall.



Contract Talks Moving Slowly On MMRCA | AVIATION WEEK


Once again a confirmation that MMRCA is not about a cost-effective stop gap, or simple Mig 21 replacement anymore, but about as much ToT and industrial benefits as well. Also, the competition is not in the final stage, because of the delays and the vendors have to offer new comercial bids. Only when that is done, we will see a short listing and then will enter the final stage!


----------



## luckyyy

> India requires that licensed production of the aircraftincluding engines, accessories, radars, systems and tooling
> India sees everything from microtechnology and materials



Given the circumstances, we require a fifth generation fighter.* Only they [the Russians] were ready to give us the technology.*
The Hindu : States / Kerala : Indigenisation in focus: Antony


----------



## luckyyy

sancho said:


> Once again a confirmation that MMRCA is not about a cost-effective stop gap, or simple Mig 21 replacement anymore, but about as much ToT and industrial benefits as well. Also, the competition is not in the final stage, because of the delays and the vendors have to offer new comercial bids. Only when that is done, we will see a short listing and then will enter the final stage!



even if there be three finalists , both eurofighter and rafale will going to loose the cost bid against the third one...


----------



## angeldemon_007

> but this helmet will only work in within visual range situations.


Yeah, remember for that we have radars.



> even if there be three finalists , both eurofighter and rafale will going to loose the cost bid against the third one...


But still eurofighter might win because there is no doubt its one of the best machine and also the political advantage. Apart from this they are ready to transfer the production unit of few critical products from germany to India and not just for this project but also for the future project that eurofighter consortium will get. Also they are offering us an unofficial 5th member of the consortium(although i don't know what will be our role). EADS is also offering us to help bridge the gap between military and civil aviation. All these will help us to get a lot of money back.
But i don't know what will be the govt. decision. 

*@ sancho*
I have also raised a couple of time the question regarding the price per unit of every aircraft that is offered to India, guess what, there were many answer and so i decided to forget this question.
Also Rafale can not possibly be cheaper than gripen, because its project cost has already escalated a lot and also the French govt. is not able to secure any deal for this aircraft.
I think if France offers us something lucrative(like some other tech or help in designing something futuristic or some political help) apart from this behind the scene, so that we would change our mind, then their might be a possibility to purchase Rafale. I am saying this because France is desperate in getting some order for there Rafale project for its survivability.


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## SpArK

Boeing 2010 deliveries incl. record 376 737s; *50 F/A-18 & EA-18s*; Quite impressive record of swift deliveries.. one thing i admire about Boeing.

Boeing Reports Fourth-Quarter Deliveries - Jan 6, 2011


----------



## sancho

luckyyy said:


> Given the circumstances, we require a fifth generation fighter.* Only they [the Russians] were ready to give us the technology.*
> The Hindu : States / Kerala : Indigenisation in focus: Antony



Fifth gen techs = stealth techs, that apart from Russians, only the US could provide, but they don't even share it with close partners like UK, so that should tell you why we went with Russia and Pak Fa.
However, that has nothing to do with MMRCA, because no stealth fighter is offered in the competition, but instead we could get ToT of other systems that are important for 5. gen fighters as well. AESA radar, NG EWS, avionics, other weapons..., things where the Russians lack behind and we could integrate into FGFA.



luckyyy said:


> even if there be three finalists , both eurofighter and rafale will going to loose the cost bid against the third one...



Not neccesarily, because L1 does not mean lowest price per unit, but lowest price for the package that we require, which also include ToT, source codes restrictions...
An F18SH is said to cost $55 million flyaway, Rafale around $80 millions, EF over $100 millions, but the F18SH can't offer the same ToT, radar source codes and offer way more restrictions. That makes Rafale and EF more suiting to those requirements and MoD could take the L1 from them.


----------



## sancho

angeldemon_007 said:


> *@ sancho*
> I have also raised a couple of time the question regarding the price per unit of every aircraft that is offered to India, guess what, there were many answer and so i decided to forget this question.
> Also Rafale can not possibly be cheaper than gripen, because its project cost has already escalated a lot and also the French govt. is not able to secure any deal for this aircraft.
> I think if France offers us something lucrative(like some other tech or help in designing something futuristic or some political help) apart from this behind the scene, so that we would change our mind, then their might be a possibility to purchase Rafale. I am saying this because France is desperate in getting some order for there Rafale project for its survivability.



First of all, the costs for Rafale development didn't escalated, the problem is that it is complete French/European, which means the production, development, spare and weapon costs are all in Euro which increases the costs compared to US fighters for example. Saab and Gripen used the advantage of cheaper US parts and weapons, to reduce the costs, let alone that it is hardly in the same class as the other MMRCAs. That's why I said, it's doubtful that a Gripen would be costlier in fly away than a Rafale, which luckyyys source said. 
Actually I don't think the French are as desperate as the EF partners, or Saab, simply they have way bigger chances to get exports at the moment then the others.
Dassault is participating in competitions at the moment in:


*Brazil* - 36 to 100 fighters (front runner, because of strategic partnership, main competitor is the Gripen)
*India* - 126 to 240 fighters (most suited for the forces)
*UAE *- 60 fighters (no competition, but depending on side deals)
*Lybia *- 14 to 36 fighters (deal was in trouble, because France refused to sell Scalp cruise missiles, but now is said to be fixed and awaiting final signature)
*Swiss* - 22 fighters (deal is postponed, but according reports from the evaluation, Rafale was leading, competitiors are EF and Gripen)
*Kuwait* - 24 fighters (they are interested in non US fighters, but it's unsure if they fall to US pressure again)
*Qatar* - 24 to 36 fighters to replace M2Ks, Rafale would be the logical choice, but they want even latest stealth fighters like F35, but it's doubtfull they would get them)

The EF has Swiss and India, possibly will enter Qatar too (was not shortlisted in Brasil) and the deal with Oman will not be a new order, but diverted from the UK.
Saab has only Thailand and South Africa as export customers, the others just leased fighters from the Swedish order and if no new order comes in, the production line could be closed soon. The NG is participating in India, Brazil and Swiss, but with the lack of political power, it can't win such competitions and has to hope for smaller countries. 

As you can see, especially in the Gulf region and Brazil, Dassault has very good chances for exports in the next 2 to 3 years, but their main opponents are always the US contenders and that's what I expect in India as well.




SpArK said:


> Boeing 2010 deliveries incl. record 376 737s; *50 F/A-18 & EA-18s*; Quite impressive record of swift deliveries.. one thing i admire about Boeing.
> 
> Boeing Reports Fourth-Quarter Deliveries - Jan 6, 2011



True, they are not worlds leading aerospace company for nothing and if it was up to them, they would even offer more ToT... like the Europeans do, but they suffer (and gain on the other side) from US politics and restrictions.


----------



## RadyLeo

Brazil looks more and more doubtful for Rafale as Lula is gone and the new 
"el presidente" Madamme Rouseff is reportedly kissing up to USA, to make up for the lost ground in Lula snubbing the big brother.

Through Rafale is a good machine, no two ways about it. But as long as the congress is in power and SG and MMS are running the show, it will be F18 all the way. 

And do you know what is going to happen, MOD will declare Boeing as the L1 in the bidding. Just like the Jet engine deal. That will put a stop to all future questions. 

"just my two paisa"


----------



## HongWu

RadyLeo said:


> Through Rafale is a good machine, no two ways about it. But as long as the congress is in power and SG and MMS are running the show, it will be F18 all the way.
> 
> And do you know what is going to happen, MOD will declare Boeing as the L1 in the bidding. Just like the Jet engine deal. That will put a stop to all future questions.
> 
> "just my two paisa"


Bingo..... politics is the main factor here. Otherwise, this competition would have been over a long time ago.

MMS will try to get F-35 cooperation too I think for naval fighter.


----------



## GORKHALI

Rafale weapon option chart-







DEDICATED TO ALL RAFALE LOVERS


----------



## angeldemon_007

@ sancho


> First of all, the costs for Rafale development didn't escalated, the problem is that it is complete French/European, which means the production, development, spare and weapon costs are all in Euro


I am not saying development cost has escalated. I said the development cost of the whole project was actually too much (&#8364;39.6 billion) than expected, the french thought to continue as they can recover by sale but no single rafale is being sold till now. This is one of the main reason why they cannot decrease their cost per unit (hey i m not saying this, i read some article on economic times).



> Brazil - 36 to 100 fighters (front runner, because of strategic partnership, main competitor is the Gripen)
> India - 126 to 240 fighters (most suited for the forces)
> UAE - 60 fighters (no competition, but depending on side deals)
> Lybia - 14 to 36 fighters (deal was in trouble, because France refused to sell Scalp cruise missiles, but now is said to be fixed and awaiting final signature)
> Swiss - 22 fighters (deal is postponed, but according reports from the evaluation, Rafale was leading, competitiors are EF and Gripen)
> Kuwait - 24 fighters (they are interested in non US fighters, but it's unsure if they fall to US pressure again)
> Qatar - 24 to 36 fighters to replace M2Ks, Rafale would be the logical choice, but they want even latest stealth fighters like F35, but it's doubtfull they would get them)


Dude, these are the deals in which they are competing, they have not won them and even bad news are coming from some places. French cannot afford to sit down and wait year after year if they want to continue their assembly line. 

They have to win some projects or they might have to shut down assembly line in a couple of years. You cannot run a company for years without any sales and that too when you have invested so much.

Also the numbers are a bit wrong, India is clear with 126 fighters and even Brazil is going with only 36 fighters. There are no indications that both the deals might increase in numbers.

*Eurofighter*
On the other hand Eurofighter has 707 aircrafts ordered by 6 nations including 4 partners. The project cost is also less as compared to French and it is shared between 4 partners that is what making French a bit more desperate. 

*Gripen*
The aircraft is in service with the Swedish Air Force, the Czech Air Force, the Hungarian Air Force and the South African Air Force, and has been ordered by the Royal Thai Air Force. A total of 236 Gripens have been ordered as of 2008.

But for the record, if india selects rafale it would be really good for IAF as it is a nice fighter. But i am not sure how much we will benefit from this deal. Eurofighter appears to me as a much better deal.


----------



## jack220

What are the exact specification of tejas


----------



## doctor_who

jack220 said:


> What are the exact specification of tejas



go to tejas thread , this is about mrca.


----------



## jack220

doctor_who said:


> go to tejas thread , this is about mrca.


 
yah, i posted on wrong section,

thx


----------



## sancho

Just in short, because I don't have the time now...



angeldemon_007 said:


> @ sancho
> 
> I am not saying development cost has escalated. I said the development cost ... too much (39.6 billion) than expected,



Isn't that the same?




angeldemon_007 said:


> Dude, these are the deals in which they are competing, they have not won them


That's what I said, they have good chances with 8 countries so far, Gripen only with Brazil, if at, EF? That makes the chances for future orders for Gripen and EF not very bright. While Rafale even with a single of these 8 chances, would top the Gripen orders easily. That's why I don't see them so desperate at the moment especially with French orders going on without cuts.



angeldemon_007 said:


> They have to win some projects or they might have to shut down assembly line in a couple of years.


That's not correct, because the French order is way beyond 200 fighters and the production line runs in slow mode. That means, it will be open just for France for a long time and if export orders come in, they can increase it easily (remember the offer to give us 40 Rafales for fast induction).
Saab on the other hand, has already devilvered most of their orders, so if they don't get new once, they have to close the production line.



angeldemon_007 said:


> Also the numbers are a bit wrong, India is clear with 126 fighters and even Brazil is going with only 36 fighters. There are no indications that both the deals might increase in numbers.



For India, 126 + 74 optional + 40 for INs competition
For Brazil, please check news reports from the competition, the AF has a requirement to replace up to 100 fighters and the navy already stated they would like to order 12 Rafales as well.
With the production line for South America on offer, this procurment could end up in a long term deal with way higher numbers. That's why the vedors are fighting so hard for the deal.



angeldemon_007 said:


> *Eurofighter*
> On the other hand Eurofighter has 707 aircrafts ordered


That's not correct, only 559 are on order so far, 707 was the planed number and includes T3B orders.
Rafale on order 190 AFAIK, planed are around 290 (from a single customer!)


----------



## GORKHALI

HOT RAFALE OVER ICY ALPS

Reactions: Like Like:
2


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## sahil1

very good looking plane among the best of the lot both in potency as well as looks.....
hope iaf gets its hands on it without further delays............but again we are not the ones who would be deciding


----------



## SpArK

FLYING MACHINE said:


> HOT RAFALE OVER ICY ALPS



This hottie is now in Arabian sea too.. exercising with .. huhhhh the Sea Harriers.


----------



## syntax_error

They should seriously do something about the refueling probe ....
it gotta be hell for the RCS


----------



## sahil1

yeah but first they should ink a deal.........its taking heck of a long time .....wonder why such an important deal has been in pipeline for around a decae and still no result


----------



## GORKHALI

MILITARY AVIATION AND SPACE TECHNOLOGY NEWS: SU 35 WEAPON LOADOUT OPTION




Su 35 impressive weapon loadout option


MULTIROLE TYPHOON LOADOUT



MILITARY AVIATION AND SPACE TECHNOLOGY NEWS: EUROFIGHTER TYPHOON WEAPON LOADOUT OPTION CHART


----------



## GORKHALI




----------



## angeldemon_007

> Isn't that the same?


Yeah its the same but its the reason for its high cost...



> That's what I said, they have good chances with 8 countries so far,


Thats how it lost also in many deals. Also there are reports of US pressure on Brazil and Middle east.



> Gripen only with Brazil


You forgot India. Also it is in the race in Swiss deal also.

Also the Gripen project was only around 2 billion$, they don't have to worry about recovering the development cost back. They have done it.



> While Rafale even with a single of these 8 chances, would top the Gripen orders easily. That's why I don't see them so desperate at the moment especially with French orders going on without cuts.


Yeah french ordered 180 fighters but thats not enough but you also have to consider US influence as US is participating in every deal. French lost the fight against typhoon in Oman and UAE is going for f18 because of high cost of rafale. They also lost in Moroco when Moroccon decided to go for F16.

*By the way you are right about the their production unit. They must be busy in fulfulling there own domestic need right now but there are reports about France should win some deals so as to recover money.*

Don't worry about gripen. Its a cheap but a advanced fighter and it has much better future than rafale. Countries like Pakistan, they can't afford rafale but they can surely go for gripen.



> That's not correct, because the French order is way beyond 200 fighters and the production line runs in slow mode. That means, it will be open just for France for a long time and if export orders come in, they can increase it easily (remember the offer to give us 40 Rafales for fast induction).
> Saab on the other hand, has already devilvered most of their orders, so if they don't get new once, they have to close the production line.


Yeah you are right about both Rafale and Gripen. I think thats why gripen is making desperate attempt to lure indians.
But i think French should increase the production if they want to reduce the cost of their fighter. The best thing for them is they should start producing it in India 


> For India, 126 + 74 optional + 40 for INs competition


I don't know where you got this info. But i don't think it is credible because increasing the number of fighters in the deal is declined many times by respective authorities. 
But India should atleast keep its option open. What i meant is the order should be like 126 fighters with the option to increase the number to 200. Or if they are sure about their demands and navy's demands then they should include the whole order in the same MMRCA deal so that the prices could be negotiated. If our govt. decides to purchase extra fighters after 3-4 years then we would have to pay 10-15 million $ extra for each fighter. But our administration don't have the ability to visualize the future.



> For Brazil, please check news reports from the competition, the AF has a requirement to replace up to 100 fighters and the navy already stated they would like to order 12 Rafales as well.


Yeah they want to replace 100 but their order is firm only 36 for now. Actually they don't need much as there is nobody against them.



> With the production line for South America on offer, this procurment could end up in a long term deal with way higher numbers. That's why the vedors are fighting so hard for the deal.


Yeah but don't forget about US over there. US is pressuring Brasil to purchase their fighters and there forces like gripen. Also Lula D'silva is stepping down now. Now the situation is changing and French might even lose. But still who are we to predict about these things.



> That's not correct, only 559 are on order so far, 707 was the planed number and includes T3B orders.


My source is official eurofighter website and yours is wikipedia. So, i think the correct figure is 707.
The biggest problem with rafale was that French were alone in this project. They should have opted for a partner. 

By the way have you seen the pics of Dassault Neuron, the UCAV, they are now getting good response as many companies have teamed up with them. I think India should forget about AURA and should team up with them.

@ FLYING MACHINE
I saw this pic somewhere on the net. It won a competition. Its a damn sexy pic.


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## GORKHALI

angeldemon_007 said:


> .
> 
> @ FLYING MACHINE
> I saw this pic somewhere on the net. It won a competition. Its a damn sexy pic.



YOU MEAN RAFALE IMAGE LOL ?? ITS MY SECRET PITHARA hehehehe


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## GORKHALI

till then enjoy this NIGHT INCEPTION BY F/A 18 SH


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## GORKHALI

*Boeing Delivers 4 More Super Hornets to Australia Ahead of Schedule*
AMBERLEY, Queensland, Jan. 6, 2011 -- Boeing [NYSE: BA] delivered four new F/A-18F Super Hornets to Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF) Base Amberley in December, expanding the RAAF's fleet of the advanced multirole fighters to 15. The delivery enabled the RAAF's achievement of Initial Operating Capability (IOC) with its first Super Hornet squadron, the Amberley-based No. 1.

Boeing has delivered all 15 Super Hornets to Australia ahead of schedule.

"Early delivery of our new Super Hornets at Amberley has been a vital part of our path toward IOC for our first Super Hornet squadron, which we have now achieved ahead of schedule," said RAAF Group Capt. Steve Roberton, Officer Commanding 82 Wing, which operates the Super Hornet. "As we've continued to hit our marks on time -- or early, in many instances -- with the Super Hornet program, we've enabled the RAAF to ensure Australia's regional air superiority as we transition from the F-111 and classic Hornet."

The December arrival was the third Super Hornet delivery to the base during 2010. Three aircraft in the latest delivery were prewired for potential conversion to electronic attack capability during production at Boeing facilities in St. Louis; the remaining nine aircraft in the contract will be prewired in the same way before delivery to the RAAF's No. 6 Squadron.

"The Boeing Super Hornet team has surpassed expectations by delivering 15 aircraft to the RAAF in 2010 instead of the 12 originally scheduled," said Carolyn Nichols, Australian Super Hornet program manager for Boeing. "Additionally, each aircraft has been delivered within budget. We are fully committed to ensuring the same delivery success and budget excellence throughout 2011. We congratulate the men and women of the RAAF on the outstanding achievement of reaching No. 1 Squadron's Super Hornet IOC ahead of schedule."

The Australian government announced in March 2007 that it would acquire 24 of the advanced Block II versions of the Super Hornet, all of which are equipped with the Raytheon-built APG-79 Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar.

The Boeing Super Hornet is a multirole aircraft, able to perform virtually every mission in the tactical spectrum, including air superiority, day/night strike with precision-guided weapons, fighter escort, close air support, suppression of enemy air defenses, maritime strike, reconnaissance, forward air control and tanker missions. Boeing has delivered more than 440 F/A-18E/Fs to the U.S. Navy. Every Super Hornet produced has been delivered on or ahead of schedule and on budget.


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## sancho

angeldemon_007 said:


> Thats how it lost also in many deals.



Not really, because they lost mainly against cheaper US fighters with political pressure behind it. Against European fighters, their chances are much higher, because the costs care more comparable and politically they can offer sometime even more (Swiss, Brazil).




angeldemon_007 said:


> You forgot India. Also it is in the race in Swiss deal also.



I said chances to win and in both competitions, the Gripen is not really a front runner. As I said, the highest chances are still in Brazil so far.




angeldemon_007 said:


> French lost the fight against typhoon in Oman and UAE is going for f18 because of high cost of rafale.


Both not correct, Oman had no real competition and F18 for UAE are nothing more than rumors in the media. 




angeldemon_007 said:


> Don't worry about gripen. Its a cheap but a advanced fighter and it has much better future than rafale.



Actually it hasn't, because beeing cheap won't help in such competitions, if you don't have any political, or strategic support. Gripen is a good fighter and still found only 2 real export custormers, that bought hardly 40 fighters. Gripen NG is on offer for years, but no customer wants it and even the Swedish forces don't buy it so far. So the future of Gripen is way more in trouble than you might believe.




angeldemon_007 said:


> Yeah but don't forget about US over there. US is pressuring Brasil to purchase their fighters and there forces like gripen. Also Lula D'silva is stepping down now. Now the situation is changing and French might even lose.



The new president chose the same defense minister again and he is pro Rafale. The new president will take her own look on the things of course, but so far Rafale is still leading, especially because it is the obvious choice as a strategic partner for Brazil. It will be a political choice there as well!




angeldemon_007 said:


> My source is official eurofighter website and yours is wikipedia. So, i think the correct figure is 707.



Again, that's only the planed number, T3B is not ordered so far, only T3A and including them, only 559 EFs are on order now. 
Italy already reduced the T3B order in favour of F35s and will probably switch completely, UK agreed even to T3A only under German pressure. Germany is reducing the military size dramatically and a cut of the last batch is beeing discussed as well. 
So forget about planed stuff, the reality now is totally different!




angeldemon_007 said:


> By the way have you seen the pics of Dassault Neuron, the UCAV, they are now getting good response as many companies have teamed up with them. I think India should forget about AURA and should team up with them.



Neuron is only planed to be a tech demonstrator so far, but it will be interesting if BAE now would join as well and combine their UCAV development with the current Neuron partners. Maybe then they will switch to a real aircraft development.


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## GORKHALI

sancho said:


> Not really, because they lost mainly against cheaper US fighters with political pressure behind it. Against European fighters, their chances are much higher, because the costs care more comparable and politically they can offer sometime even more (Swiss, Brazil).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I said chances to win and in both competitions, the Gripen is not really a front runner. As I said, the highest chances are still in Brazil so far.
> 
> 
> 
> Both not correct, Oman had no real competition and F18 for UAE are nothing more than rumors in the media.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually it hasn't, because beeing cheap won't help in such competitions, if you don't have any political, or strategic support. Gripen is a good fighter and still found only 2 real export custormers, that bought hardly 40 fighters. Gripen NG is on offer for years, but no customer wants it and even the Swedish forces don't buy it so far. So the future of Gripen is way more in trouble than you might believe.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The new president chose the same defense minister again and he is pro Rafale. The new president will take her own look on the things of course, but so far Rafale is still leading, especially because it is the obvious choice as a strategic partner for Brazil. It will be a political choice there as well!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again, that's only the planed number, T3B is not ordered so far, only T3A and including them, only 559 EFs are on order now.
> Italy already reduced the T3B order in favour of F35s and will probably switch completely, UK agreed even to T3A only under German pressure. Germany is reducing the military size dramatically and a cut of the last batch is beeing discussed as well.
> So forget about planed stuff, the reality now is totally different!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Neuron is only planed to be a tech demonstrator so far, but it will be interesting if BAE now would join as well and combine their UCAV development with the current Neuron partners. Maybe then they will switch to a real aircraft development.



HEY SANCHO DO YOU HAVE ANY WEAPON LOAOUT OPTION CHART of F 16 IN/block 60 ?


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## GORKHALI

RAFALE TANNING OVER NORMANDY BEACH


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## GORKHALI

RAFALE WITH METEORS


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## GORKHALI

MILITARY AVIATION AND SPACE TECHNOLOGY NEWS: GRIPEN NG WEAPON LOADOUT

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## sancho

FLYING MACHINE said:


> HEY SANCHO DO YOU HAVE ANY WEAPON LOAOUT OPTION CHART of F 16 IN/block 60 ?



Not yet, will try to find one, but I updated the Rafale weapon config, because the other one is not really up to date:

Imageshack - rafaleloadconfig.jpg




FLYING MACHINE said:


> RAFALE WITH METEORS



That's a PS and if you don't mind mate, post pic series in one post, instead of 1 in each post.


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## GORKHALI

sancho said:


> Not yet, will try to find one, but I updated the Rafale weapon config, because the other one is not really up to date:
> 
> Imageshack - rafaleloadconfig.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's a PS and if you don't mind mate, post pic series in one post, instead of 1 in each post.



next time i'll take care of it buddy ..

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## GORKHALI

@ sancho Actully i compared the weapon loadout of SU 35 vs F/A 18 SH ,to be honest SU 35 impressed me much .


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## IamINDIA

i think the EF should win it,puerly because we will gain a lot of tech from the ToT 






hurray my 100th post on

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## sancho

FLYING MACHINE said:


> @ sancho Actully i compared the weapon loadout of SU 35 vs F/A 18 SH ,to be honest SU 35 impressed me much .



It is, especially the A2G missiles and heavy PGMs, but at the lower range (250KG LGB for example) it lacks behind and the US weapon pack is undeniably the best when you want quality and low costs. The European offer to some extend even better weapons, but by the fact that they go to less wars, they produce their weapons in lower numbers of course. 
However, the Su 35 is not part of the MMRCA and we have the same load and weapons through the MKI anyway. What we need now is something in addition to them and a fighter in addition to the MKI.


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## rockstarIN

With much lower RCS


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## ajay

IamINDIA said:


> i think the EF should win it,puerly because we will gain a lot of tech from the ToT
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hurray my 100th post on




Thats what i thought but now I changed my mind as India will be a partner in the project which is already established we only benefit in gaining technology in future upgrades.


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## dbc

FLYING MACHINE said:


> @ sancho Actully i compared the weapon loadout of SU 35 vs F/A 18 SH ,to be honest SU 35 impressed me much .



The F/A-18 E/F can carry up to 18 JAGM's the JAGM's multi-mode seeker makes it a versatile weapons now that's capability the Sukhoi may never have.


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## ajay

Ive been following this MRCA tender for many a moon now. My first choice was the Gripen NG I later changed to the EF typoon and now after hearing much debate I have again changed to the Rafale my only concern with this plane is a lower thrust on the engine compared to the EF but I feel France will give us more tech transfer.


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## Ammyy

sancho said:


> It is, especially the A2G missiles and heavy PGMs, but at the lower range (250KG LGB for example) it lacks behind and the US weapon pack is undeniably the best when you want quality and low costs. The European offer to some extend even better weapons, but by the fact that they go to less wars, they produce their weapons in lower numbers of course.
> However, the Su 35 is not part of the MMRCA and we have the same load and weapons through the MKI anyway. What we need now is something in addition to them and a fighter in addition to the MKI.



I think only draw back of MKI is RCS


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## ajay

Plus the SU-35 has a more powerful engine to the MK1 but we can upgrade later if we wanted.


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## GORKHALI

sancho said:


> It is, especially the A2G missiles and heavy PGMs, but at the lower range (250KG LGB for example) it lacks behind and the US weapon pack is undeniably the best when you want quality and low costs. The European offer to some extend even better weapons, but by the fact that they go to less wars, they produce their weapons in lower numbers of course.
> However, the Su 35 is not part of the MMRCA and we have the same load and weapons through the MKI anyway. What we need now is something in addition to them and a fighter in addition to the MKI.



yes!mki is similar to Su 35 but we never heard about RCS of mki from anysource unlike SU 35 ,also SU 35 is truely a multirole craft unlike mki whose primary role is air superiorty . Btw cant we fuse western weapons into Mki or su 35 ??


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## GORKHALI

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> The F/A-18 E/F can carry up to 18 JAGM's the JAGM's multi-mode seeker makes it a versatile weapons now that's capability the Sukhoi may never have.



hi DBC !LOL DO YOU HAVE ANY F/A 18 loadout chart ??


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## aakash_2410

My vote is for eurofighter!! eurofighter ftv! 
EADS has invited India to become a partner of the Eurofighter Typhoon programme if the Typhoon wins the contract, and will be given technological and development participation in future tranches of the Typhoon.[35] Bernhard Gerwert, CEO of EADS Defense Department, elaborated that if India becomes the fifth partner of the Eurofighter programme, it will be able to manufacture assemblies for new Eurofighters.
Bernhard Gerwert, CEO of military air systems, said that India is invited to join the Eurofighter Typhoon programme as a partner. The production of the Eurofighter Typhoon will create thousands of new jobs in India. He also said that in order to win the contract, EADS would move avionics jobs from Germany to India.


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## SpArK

FLYING MACHINE said:


> hi DBC !LOL DO YOU HAVE ANY F/A 18 loadout chart ??



Something like this or what.?

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## kish

SpArK said:


> Something like this or what.?



are u benny


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## sancho

The only F16 loadout that I found:


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## GORKHALI




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## SpArK

*F/A-18 can operate off roads too​*
The Boeing F/A-18 Hornet is capable of operating off public roads like the Saab-built Gripen.

At least, thats what the Finnish Air Force has been doing with its F/A-18 C&D Hornets. As the images below show, the legacy Hornet seems to have the same expeditionary capabilities as the Gripen.



But can the larger F/A-18 Super Hornet do the same?

Indeed the Super Hornet can do everything the Classic does  only better! It has a lower landing speed due to the big wing  of course it is a bit wider and heavier, so that is a consideration  but built to operate in spartan conditions and of course, the wing fold makes a difference when pulling off the roadway. The self-contained test and start with the on-board Auxilliary Power Unit means no special equipment needs to be transported to accommodate ground operations, says Richard S. McCrary, head of Boeings F/A-18 campaign in India and former SR-71 Blackbird pilot.

McCrary also provides visual evidence of the ruggedness of the aircraft in this image of high crosswind landing tests on the dry lake at Edwards Air Force Base in the US.



The aircraft is in the race to win the Indian Air Force (IAF) tender for 126 Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA).

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## SpArK

*Saab to bring Gripen trio to Aero India​*
Swedish defense major Saab is planning to get three Gripen NG aircraft to Aero India, the air show in Bangalore due to be held next month. Inderjit Sial, head of Saab in India told StratPost that while two of the aircraft would conduct flight displays, the third would be on static display. The aircraft is in the race to win the Indian Air Force (IAF) tender for 126 Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA).

The company is also flying in two other aircraft, the Saab 2000, which it is pitching in response to the Indian Navy&#8217;s Request for Information (RFI) for Medium Range Maritime Reconnaissance (MRMR) aircraft, as well as the Saab 340, a 34-seater aircraft in which the company hopes to interest the Indian Coast Guard in association with the Indian company, Punj Lloyd. The Coast Guard is expected to lease a total of 12 aircraft for maritime patrol.

Saab will also display its RBS-15 Anti-Ship Missile and its Giraffe MB radar which it hopes to offer the Indian Navy as part of a network of coastal defense batteries, as well as its RBS-70 MANPADS missile system and HARD radar, which it is pitching to the Indian armed forces.

Besides this, the company will show off its Head Up Display (HUD) built in association with Samtel for light helicopters and aircraft, which will allow operations in weather conditions that require CAT III facilities.


Saab to bring Gripen trio to Aero India

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## GORKHALI

SOURCE STRAT POST -US defense and aerospace company Boeing is offering a charged-up engine to power its F/A-18 Super Hornet, in the race to win the Indian Air Force (IAF) tender for 126 Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA).
The engine, called the GE F414 EPE (Enhanced Performance Engine), will provide 20 per cent additional thrust to the aircraft. According to Richard S. McCrary, who leads Boeing&#8217;s F/A-18 Super Hornet campaign in India, no changes would be required in the aircraft since the aircraft was designed ab initio to accommodate this evolved engine.
Dr. Vivek Lall, the head of Boeing&#8217;s Defense, Space and Security unit in India says that from its inception, the Super Hornet was designed to accommodate additional inlet airflow beyond the current F414 demand in anticipation of future capability enhancements and that technology upgrades for the engine are currently under development with GE Aviation.
The EPE takes advantage of this inherent airframe growth capability through enhancements to the fan and core, resulting in a 20&#37; increase in thrust with no changes to the aircraft structure or outer moldline.
&#8220;The EPE includes an upgraded core with an advanced High Pressure Turbine (HPT) and six-stage High Pressure Compressor (HPC) plus a new fan for greater airflow, resulting in a 20% thrust improvement. EPE enhancements also offer greater operational flexibility with reduced fuel consumption. At the maintenance level, the EPE engine provides a more Foreign Object Damage-tolerant compressor to further lower Operating and Support cost,&#8221; says McCrary, a former SR-71 Blackbird pilot in an emailed response, refuting any idea that the Super Hornet might be under-powered.
He also says, &#8220;The EPE is planned to meet initial delivery timeline should the F/A-18E/F be selected as the MMRCA.&#8221;
GE Aviation&#8217;s says on its website that the latest F414 advanced-technology demonstrator engine forms the baseline for this engine and has completed a test program that utilized a two-stage, all-blisk (integrated blade and disk) fan, an advanced six-stage high-pressure compressor (HPC) and a new high-pressure turbine (HPT) design. &#8220;The engine ran to 100 percent of maximum steady-state core speed and successfully completed all program objectives during more than 20 hours of testing.&#8221;
Incidentally, Boeing plans to fly in at least two Super Hornets and a C-17 heavy lift aircraft to Aero India, the air show in Bangalore, next month.


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## SpArK

*^^^

It would be better if you can format the text so that its readable.*


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## dbc

FLYING MACHINE said:


> Boeing offers suped-up F/A-18 for MMRCA | StratPost
> US defense and aerospace company Boeing is offering a charged-up engine to power its F/A-18 Super Hornet, in the race to win the Indian Air Force (IAF) tender for 126 Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA). The engine, called the GE F414 EPE (Enhanced Performance Engine), will provide 20 per cent additional thrust to the aircraft. According to Richard S. McCrary, who leads Boeing s F/ A-18 Super Hornet campaign in India, no changes would be required in the aircraft since the aircraft was designed ab initio to accommodate this
> evolved engine. Dr. Vivek Lall, the head of Boeings Defense, Space and Security unit in India says that from its inception, the Super
> Hornet was designed to accommodate additional inlet airflow beyond the current F414 demand in anticipation of future capability enhancements and that technology upgrades for the engine are currently under development with GE Aviation. The EPE takes advantage of this inherent airframe growth capability through enhancements to the fan and core, resulting in a 20% increase in thrust with no changes to the aircraft structure or outer moldline. The EPE includes an upgraded core with an advanced High Pressure Turbine (HPT) and six-stage High Pressure Compressor (HPC) plus a new fan for greater airflow, resulting in a 20% thrust improvement. EPE enhancements also offer greater operational flexibility with reduced fuel consumption. At the maintenance level, the EPE engine provides a more Foreign Object Damage- tolerant compressor to further lower Operating and Support cost, says McCrary, a former SR-71 Blackbird pilot in an emailed response, refuting any idea that the Super Hornet might be under-powered. *He also says, The EPE is planned to meet initial delivery timeline should the F/A-18E/F be selected as the MMRCA. * GE Aviation s says on its website that the latest F414 advanced-technology demonstrator engine forms the baseline for this engine and has completed a test program that utilized a two-stage, all- blisk (integrated blade and disk) fan, an advanced six-stage high-pressure compressor (HPC) and a new high-pressure turbine (HPT) design. The engine ran to 100 percent of maximum steady-state core speed and successfully completed all program objectives during more than 20 hours of testing.  Incidentally, Boeing plans to fly in at least two Super Hornets and a C-17 heavy lift aircraft to Aero India, the air show in Bangalore, next month.



I bet Sancho was hoping I'd forgotten all about our little discussion about EPE engines when he read the above post. Let me refresh your mind, Sancho claimed the EPE enhanced thrust engine wasn't "funded" and since it wasn't "funded" it wasn't developed and wouldn't be ready for initial delivery in 2014. 

You guys think Mr Sancho is man enough to admit he was wrong!

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## luckyyy

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> I bet Sancho was hoping I'd forgotten all about our little discussion about EPE engines when he read the above post. Let me refresh your mind, Sancho claimed the EPE enhanced thrust engine wasn't "funded" and since it wasn't "funded" it wasn't developed and wouldn't be ready for initial delivery in 2014.
> 
> You guys think Mr Sancho is man enough to admit he was wrong!



most of the people won't even accepting that Grien NG is ready , but now SAAB also coming at Aero2011 with three fighters...


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## sancho

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> I bet Sancho was hoping I'd forgotten all about our little discussion about EPE engines when he read the above post. Let me refresh your mind, Sancho claimed the EPE enhanced thrust engine wasn't "funded" and since it wasn't "funded" it wasn't developed and wouldn't be ready for initial delivery in 2014.
> 
> You guys think Mr Sancho is man enough to admit he was wrong!



Actually I was hoping that you finally would come with "*any*" source, or proof for all your claims, but that might remain a hope only. 

Lets look at the article once again:



> US defense and aerospace company Boeing *is offering* a charged-up engine to power its F/A-18 Super Hornet, in the race to win the Indian Air Force (IAF) tender for 126 Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA)...
> 
> ...The EPE *is planned* to meet initial delivery timeline should the F/A-18E/F be selected as the MMRCA.  GE Aviation s says on its website that *the* latest F414 advanced-technology *demonstrator engine forms the baseline for this engine* and has completed a test program




*Facts:*

1) There is not a single word regarding the funding of the EPE!
2) Boeing is offering the EPE to India and it can be developed in 4 years, but that was stated often before and again tells us nothing about the funding of the development!
3) GE itself states that the engine will be based on the demonstrator that completed the tests now, but once again, nothing about who will fund the further development to the real EPE engine! 


*Conclusion:* 

Nothing new, Boeing knows that their fighter is underpowered compared to the competitiors (except to the Gripen) and as I showed before, will be technologically behind as well. The obvious solution are upgrades, but as long neither USN, nor any export customer funds them, they are nothing but possible future upgrades.


Show me a single proof that the real EPE (not the demonstrator, or EDE) is funded and I will admit it, otherwise stop these baseless claims.


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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> Show me a single *proof* that the real EPE (not the demonstrator, or EDE) is funded and I will admit it, otherwise stop these baseless claims.



DBC.. the long discussion will come to a conclusion ..shown every one the proof .. that EPE is already funded and a time line is provided that F18E/F will be out from hanger with EPE engine .. katham thatham..

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## sancho

luckyyy said:


> most of the people won't even accepting that Grien NG is ready , but now SAAB also coming at Aero2011 with three fighters...



Let me try to explain the difference once again!

*Gripen NG tech demonstrator (modfied Gripen):*







Available now!


*Gripen E/F prototype, or final Gripen IN version:*






Available on paper, or drawings!




> ...*The next configuration, MS 21*, is being defined, but it is clear that MS 21 is in fact the NG, with the General Electric F414G engine; modified airframe; Selex Galileo Raven ES-05 active, electronically scanned array (AESA) radar; Skyward-G infrared search and track (IRST) system; and new core avionics.
> Selex&#8217;s Raven 1000P *radar prototype is flying on the Gripen Demo* and a ground rig is testing the innovative avionics in which flight-critical functions are partitioned so mission capabilities can be added more quickly through the fighter&#8217;s life.
> 
> The government is funding development *of the definitive NG*, which the independent defense procurement agency FMV calls JAS 39E/F. (A contract for the avionics system was issued in May.) *The production version will have a larger wingspan and area, and the landing gear will be fully integrated with the wing* (on the Demo, gear loads are taken through the wing and fuselage). Maximum takeoff weight has been increased (compared with earlier NG proposals) by 1,100 lb. to 36,400 lb...
> 
> ...*The Demo prototype completed* 152 flight-test sorties by mid-June, Rosen said, and *a successful demonstration in India* in May (the company previously performed demonstrations with the C/D version in India), including a landing and engine restart at Leh airfield in Kashmir, 10,800 ft. above sea level.



https://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gen...s/dti/2010/07/01/DT_07_01_2010_p41-236114.xml


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## sancho

kingdurgaking said:


> DBC.. the long discussion will come to a conclusion ..shown every one the proof .. that EPE is already funded and a time line is provided that F18E/F will be out from hanger with EPE engine .. katham thatham..



But that's the problem, she can't otherwise she could have done it long time ago right? Boeing itself states that they are searching for an export customer for the engine and that's not without a reason right?
I even stated before, IF we fund the EPE for LCA MK2, the F18SH will win MMRCA without any doubt, but so far nothing like this was stated and the low costs per engine hints to the normal 414 version only.


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## Stealth

seriously its too long simply at last India will only go for F18 because of America... India dont even have guts to reject American offer simple. so no Gripen Rafale typhoon India will only go for F18 ... might be along with F18 india will try to put more cash and other fighter but not only along with F18 ....


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## dbc

kingdurgaking said:


> DBC.. the long discussion will come to a conclusion ..shown every one the proof .. that EPE is already funded and a time line is provided that F18E/F will be out from hanger with EPE engine .. katham thatham..



Thanks kingdurgaking, what Mr. Sancho fails to understand is that the EPE - Enhanced Performance Engine and the EDE - Enhanced Durability Engine has the same core. The EDE program is fully funded by US Navy, the EDE engine is transformed into the EPE version by addition of a 3D-aerodynamic forward-swept airfoil. The 3D-aerodynamic forward-swept airfoil is internally funded by GE's science and technology development funds and the US Navy. 

In any case not going to waste any more time on the thickheaded


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## kingdurgaking

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Thanks kingdurgaking, what Mr. Sancho fails to understand is that the EPE - Enhanced Performance Engine and the EDE - Enhanced Durability Engine has the same core. The EDE program is fully funded by US Navy, the EDE engine is transformed into the EPE version by addition of a 3D-aerodynamic forward-swept airfoil. The 3D-aerodynamic forward-swept airfoil is internally funded by GE's science and technology development funds and the US Navy.
> 
> In any case not going to waste any more time on the thickheaded




Hopefully if we get F18 with this powerful engines it will rock-out all the contenders ... with its powerful weapon suite...

sacho... agreed or unagreed but the prospect for F18 is more because India is getting closer to US.. if Pokhran-3 happens then there will be a chance for others... until then others have less chance because of cost factor which prioritize with high preference...Gripen NG i dont think will be a choice considering Tejas-2 expectations being set today..


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## RadyLeo

You all know what another thing cool about f18.. it can operate out of roads
F/A-18 can operate off roads too | StratPost

Its not the matter of India having the guts to say No to US of A or not. At the end of the day it will all boil down money... How much we can get for the money being spent. Political, Strategic and Technology. 
F18 offers all of this!!!


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## SpArK

RadyLeo said:


> *You all know what another thing cool about f18.. it can operate out of roads*
> F/A-18 can operate off roads too | StratPost
> 
> Its not the matter of India having the guts to say No to US of A or not. At the end of the day it will all boil down money... How much we can get for the money being spent. Political, Strategic and Technology.
> F18 offers all of this!!!



We all know that.. chk the last page 

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/4347-mrca-news-discussions-249.html


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## sancho

kingdurgaking said:


> DBC.. the long discussion will come to a conclusion ..shown every one the proof .. that EPE is already funded



See, just like I said, she can't, so I rest my case!


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## angeldemon_007

I don't think US or Russian fighters will be selected. We are getting closer to US but i don't think its a wise decision to place such a big order to the country who has not a very good relationship in the past.

Apart from this GE 414 and eurojet EJ200 used in eurofighter both are good. According to the reports eurojet was even more advanced than GE414.

Rafale and eurofighter are no doubt the most advanced fighters in the competition.


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## ajay

http://www.webwire.com/ViewPressRel.asp?aId=129527


*
looks like something out of Star Wars; it performs like something out of Star Wars &#8211; and for the fast-jet fighter pilots of the future &#8211; it could just make the difference between life and death.

Welcome to the Eurofighter Typhoon&#8217;s latest weapon &#8211; not something slung under the wing &#8211; but a system with &#8216;brains&#8217; that sits on the pilot&#8217;s head.*


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## SpArK




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## GareebNawaz

india will go foe f18


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## ajay

Eurofighter going to win breaking newsss


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## sancho

> *Armed forces face further £1bn in cuts*
> 
> Ministry of Defence to make extra reductions in addition to those anounced in spending review last year
> 
> *Typhoons only three years old may have to be scrapped as it will cost too much to update them*. Photograph: RAF
> 
> The armed forces face the immediate prospect of having to make significant cuts  of well over £1bn a year  on top of those announced in October's defence review, it emerged today.
> 
> The Ministry of Defence faces a "nightmare" as it tries to cope with the extra shortfall in this year's planning round, a leading defence analyst said.
> 
> The "defence review has not done enough", Michael Clarke, director of the Royal United Services Institute, told a conference in London attended by senior military officers.
> 
> The annual gap between commitments and available cash for the armed forces over the next few years could amount to as much as £2bn, a situation Clarke described as unsustainable.
> 
> This year's planning round would be a "nightmare", he said. Even with an increase now to bridge the immediate shortfall the military would need more later this decade to meet the objectives laid out in the defence review.
> 
> Under the review the current £38bn annual defence budget will be cut by about 7.5% over the next four years. However, the review also laid out plans for a reduced role for the armed forces by 2020. But even that would require a real terms increase in the defence budget in the years following 2015, military chiefs have insisted.
> 
> It has also emerged that the RAF is to scrap more than *50 Eurofighter/Typhoon* jets which became operational only three years ago *at a cost of more than £4.5bn* (=*$7 billion dollar, or $140 million each Tranche 1 EF*) because it cannot afford to update them.
> 
> An MoD spokeswoman said it did not recognise the figures on the immediate defence budget shortfall. However, they were not challenged by senior military personnel present at the conference.
> 
> Nick Harvey, the Lib Dem armed forces minister, told the conference Labour had allowed a "massive unfunded liability in defence to build up".



Armed forces face further £1bn in cuts | UK news | The Guardian


An RAF official some weeks ago mentioned these plans as well and hinted that the RAF wants to sell them 2nd hand, because it is too costly to upgrade them. But who on earth will pay even half the price for a fighter that has only A2A capabilities (Tranche 2 got some A2G weapons)?


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## GareebNawaz

^^ that is why i say IAF will gor for F/A-18 SH in the end as we may have the money for EF, but it would be put to better use for customising and upgrading SH.


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## the rafter

*Eurofighter ahead in IAF deal
Likely to pip Russian, US, French jets for $10-billion &#8216;deal of the decade&#8217;*

New Delhi, January 10
The buzz has started about which new &#8216;fighter bird&#8217; will rule the Indian skies as well as those of enemy. The Eurofighter aircraft, it seems, has emerged the winner after a long &#8216;dogfight&#8217; among six foreign 4.5th generation jet planes to clinch over $10-billion Indian Air Force deal for 126 Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA). The second runner-up is said to be the French fighter Rafale.

Despite the aggressive business-oriented visit of US President Barack Obama recently, two major competing American military aircraft makers, Boeing and Lockheed Martin, have lost their pitch.

Growing Indo-US strategic relations have not helped the American diplomatic and arms lobbies to get either of the two planes touch the winning mark. India had shortlisted six aircraft: American Lockheed Martin&#8217;s F-16IN &#8216;Super Viper&#8217;, US Boeing&#8217;s &#8216;Super Hornet&#8217; F/A-18IN, European Aeronautic Defence and Space Company NV (EADS)&#8217; Eurofighter Typhoon - EADS is a consortium of British, German, Spanish and Italy firms - French D'assault's Rafale, Swedish Saab&#8217;s Gripen, and Russian MiG-35. The MMRCAs induction is likely to start by 2015.

When the file related to the final evaluation of rival aircraft was shown to Defence Minister AK Antony, highly reliable sources told The Tribune that he said that if this was the case, let it be. The Prime Minister&#8217;s Office has been made aware about this. Now, a &#8216;political decision&#8217; is awaited on this mega deal.

Interestingly, on the New Year eve, an important file relating to the deal was found on the roadside in the Khel Gaon area. The file was supposed to be in the custody of an IAS officer of the rank of director in the defence production wing of the Ministry of Defence. An inquiry has been ordered.

The IAF intends to purchase the MMRCA combat jets to replace its aging Russian-made MiG-21 fleet in phases and help in curbing the recent trend of the depleting squadron strength.

India had floated tenders for this deal in August 2007. The exhaustive technical evaluation of the six global manufacturers&#8217; bids was completed last year. Starting from Bangalore, the trials took the competing fighters and their weapons to the hot desert region of Jaisalmer as well as high-altitude Leh.

Incidentally, the IAF &#8216;top guns&#8217; - after trials at home and abroad - were said to be in favour of Swedish Saab&#8217;s Gripen fighters. Boeing&#8217;s &#8216;Super Hornet&#8217; also reportedly gave a tough fight to be among the top four. The Eurofighter is said to be the costliest jet among the competitors.

Lockheed Martin&#8217;s F-16 lost mainly as the Air Force pilots&#8217; community raised a critical question: why should India go for the same fighter aircraft that is with our main regional adversary - Pakistan?

The arrival of Lockheed Martin&#8217;s F-16 fighter plane for trials had made many in the IAF apprehensive, and they feared that its &#8216;selection&#8217; - because of over-pitched American lobbying - might become a &#8216;combat disadvantage&#8217; for India. Pakistan has been operating F-16 aircraft since the mid-eighties and is currently flying the F-16 Block 50.

The Russian MiG-35 was &#8216;not touched&#8217; by the evaluators as New Delhi and Moscow were busy signing a deal for a fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA).
The Tribune, Chandigarh, India - Main News


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## satishkumarcsc

Is it something like EJ 200 has won the LCA engine competition? Because i no longer feel like the MMRCA reports have any truth in them as the whole decision is political now as the whole evaluations have reached the MoD.


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## jha

satishkumarcsc said:


> Is it something like EJ 200 has won the LCA engine competition? Because i no longer feel like the MMRCA reports have any truth in them as the whole decision is political now as the whole evaluations have reached the MoD.



precisely. Its on the same line. Media persons seem to have vested interest in different companies.


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## Dash

jha said:


> precisely. Its on the same line. Media persons seem to have vested interest in different companies.


Like Ajay Shukla....who recently pitched for F-35


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## GORKHALI




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## luckyyy

what is the difference buying Gripen against EF or rafale.......?

after all all weapon configuration are same for three and the local products(cockpit displays , avionics , EWS etc) will going to be the same for all three........

what additional is there in EF or rafale against Gripen..?


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## SpArK

_This week's Image of the Week (featured on page 3 of Flight International), is taken by AirSpace user flyer1 (Martin Dighton). His photo depicts a RAF RAF Eurofighter EF-2000 Typhoon FGR4 ZJ923 [cn.0075/BS014] and a RAF Supermarine 389 Spitfire PR19 [cn.65/585121] 

"The sun was just breaking through the cloud as the pair banked and began to climb," Martin says._​


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## sancho

luckyyy said:


> what is the difference buying Gripen against EF or rafale.......?
> 
> after all all weapon configuration are same for three and the local products(cockpit displays , avionics , EWS etc) will going to be the same for all three........
> 
> what additional is there in EF or rafale against Gripen..?



Basically, all important points!

1) *Flight performance* - Light single engine fighter *vs.* medium twin engine fighters (especially with more than A2A loads)

2) *Development status* - Prototype stage *vs.* operational versions that needs no airframe changes and just minor upgrades

3) *ToT* - All major parts from, or under co-development with foreign countries only *vs.* all major parts developed on their own

4) *Offsets* - Saab aviation is a rather small company and can offer only less offsets *vs.* EF consortium, or even Dassault

5) *Political, or strategic advantages* - None *vs.* most powerful European countries and defense industries


On pure cost basis, the Gripen is of course a very good fighter, but we need more in different roles and the main aim must be to get as much side advantages, that Saab and Sweden simply can't offer.


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## sancho

jha said:


> precisely. Its on the same line. Media persons seem to have vested interest in different companies.



Actually we didn't get too many new reports for a long time, all these EF and Rafale are leading articles are mainly based on the Times of India report, or on even older once (Indian abassador in Italy...).
Since IAF transfered their report to MoD and the selection of the LCA MK2 engine, we mainly heared PR besides the visits of all the world leaders in India and only the shortlistings might bring something really new, or interesting.
I mean even the big and sensational scam about the MMRCA documents lying on the road didn't come up with any new info right? 

More interesting are the reports from Brazil, or Europe about the FX2 competition, or budget cuts and upgrades, because that tells us more about the reality of these fighters.


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## SpArK

*Win a Gripen flight at Aero India​*

If youve ever dreamed about really, well and truly satisfying your need for speed, heres your shot.

*Swedish defense company Saab has launched a contest that offers a grand prize of a flight on its Gripen NG fighter aircraft at Aero India in Bangalore next month.*

All you have to do is go to Gripen Top Guns, click on the Facebook Connect button and enter your login details.

Joanna Sjölander, Director of Gripen in India, says, Someone in India with a life long dream will be flying a world beating fighter aircraft very soon. We hope the games we offer will be tempting to many people and look forward to making one big dream, as well as many small wishes, come true.

Five winners of the Professional or Ace level of the contest will get to fly the Gripen simulator at the air show. By the way, to play the Ace level you need to have Microsoft Flight Simulator installed on your computer. But only one of those five will actually be offered a seat in the Gripen. The winner will need to show an Indian passport, attend an interview and submit to a health checkup, besides adhering to some physical requirements.

Gripen is also hunting for models for its calendar. Six of each sex. So those of you who like to preen and think would make the cut, head over to the contest website and login as described above. Remember, they require you to be properly dressed in all the photographs you submit. Theres a cash prize of INR 25,000 each, besides opportunities to model for advertisements as well.

The last date to win the flight or become the Gripen model is the end of this month and the minimum age for both is 18 years. If you dont live in or around Bangalore, Saab will fly you in for the air show.

And for those of you who arent 18 yet or dont get to fly or model, there are still other goodies to be won, including Gripen flight suits and shades.

So go ahead, but just dont buzz the tower. The Indian Air Force (IAF) will not be amused.



Win a Gripen flight at Aero India | StratPost


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## sancho

Interview with Saab India Chief Mr. Inderjit Sial



> ...*Vishal Kansagra*: What missile systems are being on offer to India?
> *Inderjit Sial*: Keeping customer requirements in mind, RBS-70 MANPAD and RBS-15 Mk3 air-to-surface missile are being offered currently.
> 
> 
> *Vishal Kansagra*: Any plans to offer Taurus 350 KEPD?
> *Inderjit Sial*: We dont see a requirement for this class of weapon right now, but we might offer it in future.
> 
> 
> *Vishal Kansagra*: What about financing solutions for purchase?
> *Inderjit Sial*: We customize various solutions depending on needs of the customer. For instance we have got support from Swedish government to transfer some Gripens from Swedish Air Force in case Gripen is selected in MMRCA competition. This will reduce the time to build up numbers in IAF and will fast track training...
> 
> 
> ...*Vishal Kansagra*: What about compulsions in Swedish policy for offsets?
> *Inderjit Sial*: Our offset policies are meant to infuse technologies into local industry rather than just fulfill offset obligations. This approach not only gives a boost to local industry but also reduces the overall cost of our products. Swedish government has cleared us to offer latest technology *we have* without waiting for any approvals...
> 
> 
> ...*Vishal Kansagra*: What about Swedish foreign policy about not selling weapons to countries involved in conflict?
> *Inderjit Sial*: Sweden is a neutral country like India and Swedish foreign policy is very clear about regions involved in conflict. We have a very smooth working relationship with various entities in India. As of now India is not involved in any conflict hence I would not speculate.



More than Gripen - Interview with Saab India Chief Mr. Inderjit Sial | India Defence


So no Taurus on offer for India so far, but more interesting Gripen C/D as a stop gap?
No approval needed for Swedish tech transfer, but what about the foreign parts?
The last point is very interesting too, because India was interested in Swedish fighters in the past as well, but these kind of restrictions of GoS were reported to be the reason not to procure them. If there are still such rules, the Gripen is obviously a no go for India, with it's neighborhood.

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## SpArK

sancho said:


> Interview with Saab India Chief Mr. Inderjit Sial
> 
> 
> 
> More than Gripen - Interview with Saab India Chief Mr. Inderjit Sial | India Defence
> 
> 
> So no Taurus on offer for India so far, but more interesting Gripen C/D as a stop gap?
> No approval needed for Swedish tech transfer, but what about the foreign parts?
> The last point is very interesting too, because India was interested in Swedish fighters in the past as well, but these kind of restrictions of GoS were reported to be the reason not to procure them. If there are still such rules, the Gripen is obviously a no go for India, with it's neighborhood.



Would there be any coincidence that the chief talked about Gripen during IOC and comparing it and showing dissatisfactions ???


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## GORKHALI

*MILITARY AVIATION AND SPACE TECHNOLOGY NEWS: F/A 18 E/F/G SUPER HORNET PRESS RELESE*

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## GORKHALI

[/IMG]

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## SpArK



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## luckyyy

sancho said:


> Basically, all important points!
> 
> 1) *Flight performance* - Light single engine fighter *vs.* medium twin engine fighters (especially with more than A2A loads)



Flight performance of Gripen is as good as rafale/Eurofighter , more than A2A loads of rafale/Eurofighter will be compromise by the fuel weight to burn two engines then one........




> 2) *Development status* - Prototype stage *vs.* operational versions that needs no airframe changes and just minor upgrades



don't matter , Gripen NG is not a new platform but a improvment over Gripen C/D..



> 3) *ToT* - All major parts from, or under co-development with foreign countries only *vs.* all major parts developed on their own



but whatven Gripen developed of their own will be given on TOT , and under obligation only 50% offset required which they can fully fullfilled......even rafale/Eurofighter will only giving TOT to the extent of only under contrect obligation...



> 4) *Offsets* - Saab aviation is a rather small company and can offer only less offsets *vs.* EF consortium, or even Dassault



Saab aviation is a rather small company therefore will be easy to manage ...



> 5) *Political, or strategic advantages* - None *vs.* most powerful European countries and defense industries



i didn't see any Political, or strategic advantages with rafale/Eurofighter either..



> On pure cost basis, the Gripen is of course a very good fighter, but we need more in different roles and the *main aim must be to get as much side advantages*, that Saab and Sweden simply can't offer.




then in all the cases GFripen is better placed that Rafale or Eurofighter coz Gripen offers the most side advantages....

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## doctor_who

Missing file no big deal: IAF chief - Yahoo! News

*Missing file no big deal: IAF chief*
IANS India Private LimitedBy Indo Asian News Service | IANS India Private Limited &#8211; Tue, Jan 11 6:22 PM IST

New Delhi, Jan 11 (IANS) Dismissing as 'nothing earth-shaking', the case of a missing file relating to the $10 billion deal for 126 fighter aircraft, India's air chief said Tuesday this will not adversely impact on the contract, which is expected to be signed later this year.

'The file has got nothing earth-shaking and it has nothing to do with national security. It is not going to affect the deal,' the Indian Air Force (IAF) chief, Air Chief Marshal P.V. Naik, told reporters here on the sidelines of a defence function.

The file dealing with the offsets plans of the six foreign vendors vying for the deal went missing in the last week of December 2010 and was later found by the roadside on Khelgaon Marg in south Delhi.

The incident forced the defence ministry to order a probe into the role of two Indian Administrative Service officers of the defence production department for the lapse.

The tendering process for the 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA), initiated in August 2007, has entered its final phase after the IAF carried out the flight and weapons evaluation of the six fighter planes competing for the contract, described as the 'mother of all deals' because of its huge cost.

US majors Lockheed Martin's F-16 and Boeing's F/A-18 are in the fray along with Russian MiG-RAC's MiG-35, French Dassault's Rafale, Swedish Saab's Gripen and European consortium EADS' Eurofighter Typhoon for the high value deal.

The defence ministry has made it mandatory for the winning firm to reinvest 50 percent of the deal's value in the Indian defence industry. The missing file dealt with how the six firms would go about this.

'It was part of the (MMRCA) file dealing with some of the offsets proposals and there were three or four enclosures in the file, which dealt with some comments on the offsets proposals. So, it has nothing to do with the deal as such,' Naik contended.

He said two probes had been ordered into the incident, separately by the defence ministry and the IAF.

'The IAF inquiry is into whether correct procedures in handling confidential documents were followed or not. That inquiry is nearing completion. By and large, the procedures were followed. The file was handed over to the ministry nice and proper,' he noted.

On the ministry's enquiry, Naik said he was not aware of what was happening on that front.

The IAF needs the 126 jets to replace its ageing Soviet-era MiG-21 fighter aircraft that have earned the sobriquet 'flying coffins' due to the high rate of air crashes in the late 1990s and the early years of this century.


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## SpArK

*High technology defence sales to bond U.S.-India Partnership
​*

*Wednesday, 12 January 2011, 12:10 IST*


Washington: U.S. Commerce Secretary Gary Locke *vouched for U.S. fighter aircraft manufacturers saying that U.S. is a willing and capable defence partner. High Technology defense sales which included aerospace, specialized materials, information and communications technologies, electronics and flexible manufacturing systems were the key drive for the strategic partnership of India and U.S.*


*Locke, who would lead the trade mission to India from Feb 6-11, told Indian Ambassador Meera Shankar at a meeting here Tuesday that the U.S. government views high technology defence sales as a cornerstone of the U.S.-India strategic partnership.*

Two U.S. planes, Lockheed Martin's F-16 and Boeing's F/A-18 are competing with Russian MiG-RAC's MiG-35, French Dassault's Rafale, Swedish Saab's Gripen and European consortium EADS' Eurofighter Typhoon for a $10 billion deal for 126 fighter aircraft for the Indian Air Force.

The tendering process for the 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA), initiated in August 2007, has entered its final phase after the IAF carried out the flight and weapons evaluation of the six competing aircraft for what has been described as the "mother of all deals".

Locke met Shankar to discuss bilateral trade and investment issues as he prepares to lead the high technology business development mission that will make stops in New Delhi, Mumbai, and Bangalore, the Commerce Department said.

Over 70 companies applied to participate in the U.S. mission in order to promote U.S. exports of high technology products and services in key economic sectors: civil-nuclear trade, defence and security, civil aviation, and information and communications technology.

*U.S. exports of goods to India are up 15.2 percent through the first 10 months of 2010 and projected to surpass $19 billion for the entire year - an all-time high.*

Advanced technologies, including aerospace, specialized materials, information and communications technologies, electronics and flexible manufacturing systems underpinned this growth, the department said.

*Overall U.S. exports to India were $16.4 billion in 2009, making India the 17th largest export market. Exports to India through October 2010 reached approximately $16.1 billion. *


High technology defence sales to bond U.S.-India Partnership - General news


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## doctor_who

THROW A FEW cookies at indian minster overseas and they will do the bandar ke nach ka tamasha for you. 

american are on hand denying any good deal to india through eropean chanel or atleast trying their best that india dont get it.

on the other hand they are giving their 30 yr old fighter with new paint job. in the name of high end technology.
what do these jackarse think of us ? are we still riding those bullcart to commute. 
*
india need to stop being banana republic take a leaf from chinese book and prove their guts to americans.*


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## StormShadow

SpArK said:


> *High technology defence sales to bond U.S.-India Partnership
> ​*
> 
> *Wednesday, 12 January 2011, 12:10 IST*
> 
> 
> Washington: U.S. Commerce Secretary Gary Locke *vouched for U.S. fighter aircraft manufacturers saying that U.S. is a willing and capable defence partner. High Technology defense sales which included aerospace, specialized materials, information and communications technologies, electronics and flexible manufacturing systems were the key drive for the strategic partnership of India and U.S.*
> 
> 
> *Locke, who would lead the trade mission to India from Feb 6-11, told Indian Ambassador Meera Shankar at a meeting here Tuesday that the U.S. government views high technology defence sales as a cornerstone of the U.S.-India strategic partnership.*
> 
> Two U.S. planes, Lockheed Martin's F-16 and Boeing's F/A-18 are competing with Russian MiG-RAC's MiG-35, French Dassault's Rafale, Swedish Saab's Gripen and European consortium EADS' Eurofighter Typhoon for a $10 billion deal for 126 fighter aircraft for the Indian Air Force.
> 
> The tendering process for the 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA), initiated in August 2007, has entered its final phase after the IAF carried out the flight and weapons evaluation of the six competing aircraft for what has been described as the "mother of all deals".
> 
> Locke met Shankar to discuss bilateral trade and investment issues as he prepares to lead the high technology business development mission that will make stops in New Delhi, Mumbai, and Bangalore, the Commerce Department said.
> 
> Over 70 companies applied to participate in the U.S. mission in order to promote U.S. exports of high technology products and services in key economic sectors: civil-nuclear trade, defence and security, civil aviation, and information and communications technology.
> 
> *U.S. exports of goods to India are up 15.2 percent through the first 10 months of 2010 and projected to surpass $19 billion for the entire year - an all-time high.*
> 
> Advanced technologies, including aerospace, specialized materials, information and communications technologies, electronics and flexible manufacturing systems underpinned this growth, the department said.
> 
> *Overall U.S. exports to India were $16.4 billion in 2009, making India the 17th largest export market. Exports to India through October 2010 reached approximately $16.1 billion. *
> 
> 
> High technology defence sales to bond U.S.-India Partnership - General news



Ya ya we saw the "partnership" in P-8I deal. I guess the IAF wanted to test the americans if they'd be parting away with sensitive technologies. Luckily they didnot and the lashing out of ACM P V Naik after that is a clear indication of Indian displeasure over US birds.

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## jha

sancho said:


> Interview with Saab India Chief Mr. Inderjit Sial
> 
> 
> 
> More than Gripen - Interview with Saab India Chief Mr. Inderjit Sial | India Defence
> 
> 
> *So no Taurus on offer for India so far*, but more interesting Gripen C/D as a stop gap?
> No approval needed for Swedish tech transfer, but what about the foreign parts?
> *The last point is very interesting too, because India was interested in Swedish fighters in the past as well, but these kind of restrictions of GoS were reported to be the reason not to procure them*. If there are still such rules, the Gripen is obviously a no go for India, with it's neighborhood.



Taurus would have breached MTCR i guess with range of 500 Km..And its not completely off the table. If we choose Gripen and we request Taurus , i dont think they will not give us ..

The equations have considerably changed and if Gripen is chosen we may very well have a reliable partner who will help us in every possible way.


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## sancho

jha said:


> Taurus would have breached MTCR i guess with range of 500 Km..And its not completely off the table. If we choose Gripen and we request Taurus , i dont think they will not give us ..
> 
> The equations have considerably changed and if Gripen is chosen we may very well have a reliable partner who will help us in every possible way.



The same is the case for Storm Shadow / Scalp, that's why they developed a limited range version to sell it to foreign customers like Greece, or UAE and that can be done with Taurus as well. The problem is, that the GoS still has these foreign policiy rules, which have to be changed, before we possibly can get all their weapons and techs, or call them a reliable partner. We need their support during such conflicts, not in peace times, don't you think?
People often think about sanctions only, but there are also other laws and restrictions of the vendor countries, that could affect on us, be it Sweden in this case, or all the rules and restriction the US has. That's why Russia, France and Israel a often said to be the most reliable partners for India, because they have less restrictions and already proved it in the past.


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## sancho

luckyyy said:


> Flight performance of Gripen is as good as rafale/Eurofighter , more than A2A loads of rafale/Eurofighter will be compromise by the fuel weight to burn two engines then one...



Based on? Just compare the TWR with any real load and you will see a big difference, especially with heavy A2G loads.




luckyyy said:


> *don't matter *, Gripen NG is not a new platform but a improvment over Gripen C/D..



Again just your opinion, but in really that's simply wrong! 
AESA radar is new and not an upgrade, IRST is new, engine is new, EWS is new, even the airframe has clear changes. 
Bottom line, Gripen NG is based on Gripen, but is a major re-design with all new techs. Just like the F18SH is based on the F18 Hornet, but is an all new re-design with new techs.




luckyyy said:


> but whatven Gripen *developed of their own* will be given on TOT



Which basically are airframe, some radar and some avionics only and that's pretty much the same that we have (we have our own data links, have our own EWS and radar developments and even design a similiar class fighter).
What we need instead is: 

- a partner that can help us with AESA radar development, but Saab was not invited to the co-development competition 
- a partner that can help us with Kaveri engine co-development, but Volvo was not evaluated for it and Snecma was chosen 
- a partner that can help to re-design LCA for carrier operations, but Saab was never considered as an option and IN didn't even invited them for the naval carrier fighter competition (Saab requested to join later)

All these points tells us, where Swedish ToT / know how *alone* can help us, or not. I said it before, they would have been a great choice to team up for Gripen/LCA in the mid 80s, but can't offer us much anymore, because we improved ourselfs as well. They are still ahead, but we can benefit way more from bigger and more experienced companies / vendors / partners like EADS, Boeing, LM, Sukhoi, or even Dassault.




luckyyy said:


> i didn't see any Political, or strategic advantages with rafale/Eurofighter either..



No further comment needed!


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## AnGrz_Z_K_Jailer

StormShadow said:


> Ya ya we saw the "partnership" in *P-8I deal*. I guess the IAF wanted to test the americans if they'd be parting away with sensitive technologies. Luckily they didnot and the lashing out of ACM P V Naik after that is a clear indication of Indian displeasure over US birds.



Storm can you be more specific? What's wrong with P-8I deal? are they refused to share sensitive technology or down grading electronic equipment onboard same they did in C-130J deal? can you shade some light on it if possible?

regards
Jailer


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## angeldemon_007

> are they refused to share sensitive technology


tHATS THE THING, they never shared any technology. Regarding removal of some features, i think 99&#37; we won't get the same thing that US forces will get.

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## PRACTICAL PATRIOT

AnGrz_Z_K_Jailer said:


> Storm can you be more specific? What's wrong with P-8I deal? are they refused to share sensitive technology or down grading electronic equipment onboard same they did in C-130J deal? can you shade some light on it if possible?
> 
> regards
> Jailer



we are not signing cismoa so they are not giving us the communication system unless we sign it. but IAF said that we dont need their communication sysytem we will use our own system on p-8 so we dont have to sign cismoa, and this wont affect the capability of plane.

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## StormShadow

AnGrz_Z_K_Jailer said:


> Storm can you be more specific? What's wrong with P-8I deal? are they refused to share sensitive technology or down grading electronic equipment onboard same they did in C-130J deal? can you shade some light on it if possible?
> 
> regards
> Jailer



Yes bro...We are getting a watered down version of both P-8I and C-130J. 
Here is a list of some of the things which we wont be getting..without which it is as good as nothing.

* AN/ARC-222 Single Channel Ground and Airborne Radio System (SINCGARS) - Manufacured by Magnovox and administered by the US Air Force

* KV-119 IFF Digital Transponder (Mode 4 Crypto Applique) - Manufactured by Raytheon and administered by the US Air Force

* TACTERM / ANDVT Secure Voice (HF) Terminal - Administered by the US Air Force

* VINSON KY-58 Secure Voice (UHF/VHF) Module - Administered by the US Air Force

* Rockwell-Collins AN/ARC-210(V) SATCOM Transceiver's COMSEC/DAMA embdedded RT is replaced with an RT that has no COMSEC/SINCGARS

livefist.blogspot.com/2010/10/exclusive-no-cismoa-heres-what-theyre.html

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## luckyyy

sancho said:


> What we need instead is:
> 
> - a partner that can help us with AESA radar development, but Saab was not invited to the co-development competition
> - a partner that can help us with Kaveri engine co-development, but Volvo was not evaluated for it and Snecma was chosen
> - a partner that can help to re-design LCA for carrier operations, but Saab was never considered as an option and IN didn't even invited them for the naval carrier fighter competition (Saab requested to join later)



these projects are seperate and are not associated with MMRCA deal...


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## sancho

luckyyy said:


> these projects are seperate and are not associated with MMRCA deal...



Seperate projects, but of course linked with each other, because they are making use of MMRCA techs (AESA radars, engines), or of naval MMRCA versions.
The fact is, Sweden and *their ToT* can't help us much in any field we need help, so if we want to gain from Gripen ToT, it must be of the foreign parts, but that will be limited.
That's why ToT of EF, or Rafale is the most useful ToT, because we get full ToT of critical parts, of parts where we lack behind and need help and without restictions (Russia offers the same, but of techs that we mainly have, or will get through MKI, FGFA anyway).

This is also said in the Brasilian competition, where the evaluation reports found out, that Saab was leading in the ToT area, slightly before Dassault, with Boeing as the clear 3rd, but the President and the defense minister openly stated, that the ToT offer of Dassault is the best and inludes important parts.
I am sure the US fighters will fulfill the ammount requirements of ToT that is needed in MMRCA, or FX2 as well, but mainly from airframe, or in case of the F18 engine parts. Critical techs like the radar, or EWS instead will be limited and probably only assembled in India/Brasil, but produced in the US.


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## SpArK

*EADS to Go on Spending Spree in 2011?*






Louis Gallois, CEO of EADS, told a gathering of some 100 journalists today during the group's annual ceremony of &#8220;New Year Greetings&#8221; that the group wants a better balance between the Airbus civilian aircraft sector, which accounts for about two thirds of its business, and its others business units: Cassidian for defense and security; Astrium &#8211; which was hosting the gathering &#8211; for space, and Eurocopter for helicopters. &#8220;But the task is made difficult by the success of Airbus (which yesterday secured the largest aircraft order in commercial aviation industry from Indian low-cost carrier IndiGo for 180 aircraft), although of course I'm not complaining about this,&#8221; he smiled.


He stressed that in order to balance business &#8220;our company must dramatically increase its footprint in emerging countries and become a local citizen... there are skilled employees in these countries: we need them.&#8221; But he said that in order to sell in these countries &#8220;we need to have a partner there.&#8221; This statement combined with the fact that EADS holds net cash of about &#8364;10.3 billion which Chief Financial Officer Hans Peter Ring agreed needed to be spent, would seem to point to EADS going on a spending spree in 2011.



EADS to Go on Spending Spree in 2011?


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## ajay

Better not to compare the Brazil tender as France is helping them with nuclear sub design so of course they will promote the Rafale fighter


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## angeldemon_007

> AESA radar is new and not an upgrade, IRST is new, engine is new, EWS is new, even the airframe has clear changes.


*AESA*
I have told you earlier also, the aesa radar is not tested in any of the MMRCA contender except american fighters. 

Apart from that, Gripen is the only fighter who tested its aesa earlier than rest of the fighters. Rafale tested it in 2010, eurofighter has not even made an aesa yet, while i don't have enough information on Mig35.

*IRST*
Earlier version of the gripen also had IRST, it had a range of 30km. As you are saying IRST is new, i think it must be an advanced version but its not a big deal, nowadays many flying machine has experience in IRST.

*engine*
NG will operate on GE414. Right now it works on Volvo Aero Corporation RM12 which is jointly developed by Volvo-GE for Gripen and is completely based on General Electric F-404-400 (80 KN (18,000lb) thrust class).

Look man, they are just going of thrust increase. As per gripen website its just is simple upgrade and according to my opinion if the facts written are true then its something we should not be worried. Also the fighter is even tested in LEH.



> EWS is new, even the airframe has clear changes.


Look man, share the source. Earlier you told me :


> IRST is not available on the Gripen at all and will be a new tech as well...


I read a blog entry dated 2004 and it showed Gripen had IRST then also.



> Which basically are airframe, some radar and some avionics only and that's pretty much the same that we have (we have our own data links, have our own EWS and radar developments and even design a similiar class fighter).


*some radar* ??/
Dude you call an aesa some radar ?// What is wrong with you ?//Their aesa is also not of US origin. Saab and Selex Galileo developed it.

*we have our own data links*
Good for us but for your information Gripen has the best data link which is important for the mission completion. We could use it for our next gen fighters.



> What we need instead is:
> 
> - a partner that can help us with AESA radar development, but Saab was not invited to the co-development competition
> - a partner that can help us with Kaveri engine co-development, but Volvo was not evaluated for it and Snecma was chosen
> - a partner that can help to re-design LCA for carrier operations, but Saab was never considered as an option and IN didn't even invited them for the naval carrier fighter competition (Saab requested to join later)


Why are you talking about these. These are separate JVs. Its possible the company which is selected for MMRCA might be included in these projects, but still its a different thing.



> but we can benefit way more from bigger and more experienced companies / vendors / partners like EADS, Boeing, LM, Sukhoi, or even Dassault.


You are right except the american companies.


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## sancho

Not sure what blogs you mean, but you should check for more reliable sources!



angeldemon_007 said:


> *IRST*
> Earlier version of the gripen also had IRST, it had a range of 30km. As you are saying IRST is new, i think it must be an advanced version but its not a big deal, nowadays many flying machine has experience in IRST...
> ...I read a blog entry dated 2004 and it showed Gripen had IRST then also.




*Gripen features on the official Saab website:*
Gripen the Multi-role Fighter Aircraft - Features

*Operational Swedish Air force Gripen C:*






*Operational South African Gripen C/Ds during the world cup last year:*





*And even Gripen NG Demonstrator:*






Now where do you read anything about, or see an IRST?

Try to understand, that Gripen NG is only a demonstrator to test some tech prototypes and airframe modifications. The final Gripen E/F is *planed* to get the real Swashplate AESA and IRST from Selex:






The backend of the radar will get some parts of the current radar, but that's it. That's why I said, the AESA radar and IRST for the Gripen E/F will be new developments and not just an improved version of the operational techs.
That's the difference to EF and Rafale, which uses their operational IRST and radars as basis for further developments and that leads us to the next point where you are mistaken.




angeldemon_007 said:


> *AESA*
> Gripen is the only fighter who tested its aesa earlier than rest of the fighters. Rafale tested it in 2010, eurofighter has not even made an aesa yet, while i don't have enough information on Mig35.



Sorry, but this is totally wrong!


*Rafale:*


> Thales has been developing its own European advanced AESA radar technology since the 1990s. With its long experience in radar technology for combat aircraft and in Passive Antenna Electronic Scanning functions qualified for the Rafale RBE2 radar, *Thales has been testing development models of the RBE2 AESA radar since 2003.*



Rafale's Latest Radar Moves into Production


*EF:*


> Euroradar Caesar active electronically scanned array takes flight in Eurofighter Typhoon
> 
> *May 14, 2007*
> 
> Basildon, U.K., 14 May 2007. The Euroradar Caesar active electronically scanned array *(AESA) variant of the Captor radar* system has completed a flight test program in the Eurofighter Typhoon aircraft. The flights were conducted by EADS from the Manching facility in Germany.



Euroradar Caesar active electronically scanned array takes flight in Eurofighter Typhoon - Military & Aerospace Electronics


*Gripen Demo:*


> The Gripen Demo technology demonstration program has been conducted in two phases and involves a flying demonstrator and an avionics rig. Phase 1* flight tests got under way with a first flight on May 27, 2008*



Gripen NG matures and waits for India: AINonline




> DATE:*05/11/09*
> SOURCE:Flight International
> PICTURE: *Saab's Gripen Demo makes first flight with AESA radar*



Boeing 747 and Airbus A380 Aircraft News from Flightglobal


As you can see, the EF and Rafale AESA's were developed and tested even before the first flight of the Gripen Demo itself. Initially it was even planed to co-develop a radar for the Demo with Thales on basis of the RBE 2 AESA, when that didn't happen (because of Dassault pressure), Saab first tried to get ELTA (didn't happen because of US pressure) and then with Selex. 
Thales on the other hand finished their development last year and is producing the radar already in small numbers:

Rafale News: Thales delivers First AESA radar for the Rafale F3




angeldemon_007 said:


> *engine*
> NG will operate on GE414. Right now it works on Volvo Aero Corporation RM12



Exactly, 2 different engines, not just a thrust upgrade!




angeldemon_007 said:


> Dude you call an aesa some radar ?



Read again, I said they can provide only *some swedish ToT* of the radar, because the main part is from Selex and needs approval from foreign countries.


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## luckyyy

angeldemon_007 said:


> *AESA*
> I have told you earlier also, the aesa radar is not tested in any of the MMRCA contender except american fighters.
> 
> Apart from that, Gripen is the only fighter who tested its aesa earlier than rest of the fighters. Rafale tested it in 2010, eurofighter has not even made an aesa yet, while i don't have enough information on Mig35.
> .



MIG-35's Phazotron Zhuk-AE aesa radar was displayed at last years aeroshow at bangalore......IAF could have tested it , coz there were news reports that this radar will be put on su-30mki upgrade..


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## kingdurgaking

@Sancho....
Though Griphen NG is not poweful like Rafale or EFT at present... But being a small single engine multi role , If it had AESA, IRST etc.. it will really had muscle to our Fleet.. Though my Favourite was EFT... but considering the numbers of twin engine + Quality in our current fleet i feel Griphen is the best option ..... further more Griphen NG will be customized according to indian requirement like Indian weapons.. ability to take off from Roads + hot refuleing etc which impressed IAF very much .... Only thing is it is late ... if the above requirements exist now.. Griphen NG would have been the best option.. Still it is the best option but not yet complete... Too say in simple terms... Quality for the unmatched cost...


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## angeldemon_007

*Thanx Sancho for clearing up and you are right.*


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## luckyyy

new MiG far ahead in capability than SU-30MKI

"We are ready to offer the top-of-the-shelf technology, including some new systems like stealth features for the Mig-35 "...

Navy's MiG-29K superior to IAF's SU-30MKI

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## IND151

*if MIG 35 comes with AESA radar then only we should go for it.* if not then rafale should be selected.


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## GORKHALI

*Indias MMRCA trials help Russian aerial refueling tanker bid
SOURCE DEFENCE WORLD.NET*MILITARY AVIATION AND SPACE TECHNOLOGY NEWS: India&#8217;s MMRCA trials help Russian aerial refueling tanker bid
Flight trials of the six contenders for India's Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) tender have had an unusual side effect on the race to sell India aerial refueling aircraft. Asked to prove aerial refueling capability, the contenders, F-16 , Gripen, Rafale, F/A 18 , MiG-35 and Eurofighter have had no option but use the Indian Air Force (IAF)'s existing tanker, the lL8 mid-air refueler to prove that their aircraft is capable of meeting IAF's requirements as regarding aerial refuelling The IL-78 is a contender in India's re-floated bid to buy fresh aerial refueling tankers. Fresh bids are due later this month and the besides the IL-78 , the other likely contenders are the Airbus A-330 MRTT and the Boeing KC- X. The success of the MMRCA aerial refueling tests means that the IL-76 tanker will have a stronger case due to the fact that its capability has been proven on all the MMRCA bidders, one of which will be eventually selected. In fact, the MMRCA contenders had to make major modifications to their aerial refueling systems to match the IL-76 's fuel pipe mating and locking systems to prove that the their aircraft can be refueled in mid-air. Informed sources told Defenseworld.net that the Russian bid had "emerged stronger" after the MMRCA aerial refueling tests. The ll78 had earlier been disqualified in favor of the Airbus A-330 MRTT but the Airbus bid was turned down following objections from the Indian finance ministry which found the aircraft "too expensive". It is not known was the quoted price was. Indian media quoting unnamed Airbus officials has reported that Airbus would be resubmitting its bid for the tanker contest. Boeing however has reportedly expressed that its bid would depend upon whether it wins the U.S. aerial tanker bid in which it is engaged in a bitter battle with the U.S. subsidiary of EADS which is fielding the A-330 MRTT. Airbus' tanker has been ordered by the U.A.E, Saudi Arabia, Portugal and Australian air forces while the Boeing KC-X was unveiled only in mid-2010 and the U.S. tanker contest is is first major bid. The IL-78 has been an old workhorse for Russia, India and china At Aero India 2009 , the Il-78 had made a demonstration refueling two aircraft simultaneously. It is quite likely that it may repeat this feat with the *LCA Tejas* at Aero India 2011.


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## sancho

kingdurgaking said:


> @Sancho....
> Though Griphen NG is not poweful like Rafale or EFT at present... But being a small single engine multi role , If it had AESA, IRST etc.. it will really had muscle to our Fleet.. Though my Favourite was EFT... but considering the numbers of twin engine + Quality in our current fleet i feel Griphen is the best option ..... further more Griphen NG will be customized according to indian requirement like Indian weapons.. ability to take off from Roads + hot refuleing etc which impressed IAF very much .... Only thing is it is late ... if the above requirements exist now.. Griphen NG would have been the best option.. Still it is the best option but not yet complete... Too say in simple terms... Quality for the unmatched cost...



There is no doubt about the cost advantage of Gripen and I do think that it is a capable fighter in A2A (one could say Gripen EF will be a downgraded EF T3 in the A2A role, because it offers everything the EF offers in this field, only in less capable versions). But that is also the problem, because India has it's own fighter for this cost-effective A2A role, the Tejas!
And it is not important if Tejas MK2 will be equally good as Gripen E/F or not, but that the difference will only be very small compared to the difference to real medium class fighters like F16, Rafale...

*Basic spec comparison* (LCA MK1, MK2 expected, Gripen E/F, F16IN, Rafale, EF):

*Emptyweight* - 6.5t / 6.5 - 7t / 7.1t / 10t / 9.5t / 11t
*MTOW* - 13.5t / 14 - 16t / 16.5t  / 21t / 24.5t / 23.5t
*Internal fuel* - 2.4t / 3+t / 3.3t / 3.2t + CFTs / 4.7t / 4.9t
*Weapon stations* - 7+1 / 7(9) + 1? / 7(9) + 1 / 11 + 2 / 9(12) + 2 / 13 + 0
*Dry thrust * - 54kN / 62.3kN / 62.3kN / 84kN / 100kN / 120kN


So adding Gripen NG along side of Tejas means of course low costs, but only a minimal improvement of IAF capabilities, especially in A2G roles.
When you add the lack of political and strategic advantages, less ToT and offsets compared to the other Eurocanards, the fact that it's not ready and as admitted from the Saab India official, the lack of support during war times, it offers way too less for us, to be the winner of the biggest fighter competition of the world. 


Btw, please don't fall on SAABs PR! 
Benny's post showed that landing on roads is even possible with F18s and I guess we all know the conditions of Indian roads, so that's not a requirement for sure. Even the hot refuelling is nothing special for Gripen only:



> ...The built-in Auxiliary Power Unit provides electrical power until the engine-driven generators come on line. *During exercise "Trident d'Or", French Naval Aviators validated the RAFALE hot refuelling procedure.*...



Low operating costs


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## sancho

FLYING MACHINE said:


> Indias MMRCA trials help Russian aerial refueling tanker bid


Not really, because any tanker will be able to refuel the MMRCAs, but which tankers will be able to refuel P8I and C17?


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## SpArK

Eurofighter At Aero India 2011​

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## GORKHALI

sancho said:


> Not really, because any tanker will be able to refuel the MMRCAs, but which tankers will be able to refuel P8I and C17?



SANCHO JI mujhe kue dosh deto ho  hahaha


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## GORKHALI

anyone who can help me to put lots of xclusive details in Indian Airforce thread about APACHE 64 D block II here's the link
MILITARY AVIATION AND SPACE TECHNOLOGY NEWS: EVERTHING YOU WANT TO KNOW ABOUT APACHE AH 64 D BLOCK II IS HERE thanks in advance lol


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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> There is no doubt about the cost advantage of Gripen and I do think that it is a capable fighter in A2A (one could say Gripen EF will be a downgraded EF T3 in the A2A role, because it offers everything the EF offers in this field, only in less capable versions). But that is also the problem, because India has it's own fighter for this cost-effective A2A role, the Tejas!
> And it is not important if Tejas MK2 will be equally good as Gripen E/F or not, but that the difference will only be very small compared to the difference to real medium class fighters like F16, Rafale...
> 
> *Basic spec comparison* (LCA MK1, MK2 expected, Gripen E/F, F16IN, Rafale, EF):
> 
> *Emptyweight* - 6.5t / 6.5 - 7t / 7.1t / 10t / 9.5t / 11t
> *MTOW* - 13.5t / 14 - 16t / 16.5t  / 21t / 24.5t / 23.5t
> *Internal fuel* - 2.4t / 3+t / 3.3t / 3.2t + CFTs / 4.7t / 4.9t
> *Weapon stations* - 7+1 / 7(9) + 1? / 7(9) + 1 / 11 + 2 / 9(12) + 2 / 13 + 0
> *Dry thrust * - 54kN / 62.3kN / 62.3kN / 84kN / 100kN / 120kN
> 
> 
> So adding Gripen NG along side of Tejas means of course low costs, but only a minimal improvement of IAF capabilities, especially in A2G roles.
> When you add the lack of political and strategic advantages, less ToT and offsets compared to the other Eurocanards, the fact that it's not ready and as admitted from the Saab India official, the lack of support during war times, it offers way too less for us, to be the winner of the biggest fighter competition of the world.
> 
> 
> Btw, please don't fall on SAABs PR!
> Benny's post showed that landing on roads is even possible with F18s and I guess we all know the conditions of Indian roads, syo that's not a requirement for sure. Even the hot refuelling is nothing special for Gripen only:
> 
> 
> Low operating costs



if Griphen NG comes to Next level and L1 is the only candidate ... I think NG will get the chance.. From the level of Mirage from which MRCA issued to MMRCA level Griphen will be the best choice if available on time.. Further we will be having lot of twin engine fighter by 2020.. so in order to have a mix of hi-lo ... then Griphen is the outmost choice... If it is able to land on roads and do hot refuelling in the cost it provides dont you think it is a good choice?.. 
As per political decision i dont think any one will add any value except US ... and if IAF doesnt choose Fteens.. and if NG is delivered on time ...


No wonder Tejas-MK2 is trying to compete to the level of NG...it is the kind of platform which IAF feels enough to defend China massive fleet... Can we compare the weapon load capability of F-16 , J-20 with NG.. i think that is the level IAF is looking for... I dont think IAF excepts best of the best.. it needs a good platform ... even IAF hinted cost is a important factor


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## GORKHALI

Eurofighter- The Invincible


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## GORKHALI

*MILITARY AVIATION AND SPACE TECHNOLOGY NEWS: US to lobby for $11-bn fighter aircraft deal*
SOURCE : The Indian Express Limited Ahead of Aero-India 2011 in Bangalore next month, a high- technology business development trade mission from the US, led by US commerce secretary Gary Locke, is expected to push for US fighter aircraft manufacturers for the $11-bn (medium multi-role combat aircraft) MMRCA deal. Locke, who would lead the trade mission to India from Feburary 6-11, said the US government views high- technology defence sales as a cornerstone of the US-India strategic partnership. Six manufacturers, including Boeing F/A-18 E/F Super Hornet, Dassault Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon, Lockheed Martin F-16 Block 60, Saab Gripen, and RSK MiG-35, are in race for the $11-billion deal for 126 fighter aircraft for the Indian Air Force (IAF). The process for the 126 MMRCA, initiated in August 2007, has entered its final phase after IAF carried out the flight and weapons evaluation of the six competing aircraft for what has been described as the &#8216;mother of all deals &#8217;. According to sources in IAF, &#8220;Since the technical evaluations are down, the MoD is likely to down select the contenders after the air show, possibly by April. This would decide who goes in for contract negotiations. &#8220; Another source, however, indicates that while there is no fixed number of aircraft for the shortlist, the Offsets liability have yet to be decided and that all six aircraft types could, in theory at least, advance to the contract stage. It maybe recalled that earlier India was seeking offsets of 30&#37; for defence programmes, but the requirement has been raised to 50% for the MMRCA with plans to create more jobs and transfer of technology. Over 70 companies applied to participate in the US mission in order to promote US exports of high technology products and services in key economic sectors: civil-nuclear trade, defence and security, civil aviation, and information and communications technology. Advanced technologies, including aerospace, specialised materials, information and communications technologies, electronics and flexible manufacturing systems, underpinned this growth, the department of commerce said. Overall, US exports to India were $16.4 billion in 2009, making India the 17th largest export market. Exports to India through October 2010 reached approximately $16.1 billion.


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## SpArK

*FLASH! Two Rafales Coming To Aero India 2011​*



This was a rumour doing the rounds for a while. Finally got an official confirmation from Dassault. Two Rafales will make their first public Indian appearance at Aero India 2011 next month at the IAF's Yelahanka air force base. Dassault will also be bringing a Falcon 7X and a Falcon 2000LX. More details shortly.

Livefist - Indian Defence & Aerospace: FLASH! Two Rafales Coming To Aero India 2011

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## GORKHALI

SpArK said:


> *FLASH! Two Rafales Coming To Aero India 2011​*
> 
> 
> 
> This was a rumour doing the rounds for a while. Finally got an official confirmation from Dassault. Two Rafales will make their first public Indian appearance at Aero India 2011 next month at the IAF's Yelahanka air force base. Dassault will also be bringing a Falcon 7X and a Falcon 2000LX. More details shortly.
> 
> Livefist - Indian Defence & Aerospace: FLASH! Two Rafales Coming To Aero India 2011



mon amour rafale venant dans l'Inde aéro


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## luckyyy

FLYING MACHINE said:


> The process for the 126 MMRCA, initiated in August 2007, has entered its final phase after IAF carried out the flight and weapons evaluation of the six competing aircraft for what has been described as the mother of all deals . According to sources in IAF,* Since the technical evaluations are down, the MoD is likely to down select the contenders *after the air show, possibly by April. This would decide who goes in for contract negotiations.  Another source, however, indicates that while there is no fixed number of aircraft for the shortlist, *the Offsets liability have yet to be decided and that all six aircraft types could, in theory at least, advance to the contract stage.*



if all advance to final stage then it will be MIG-35 or Gripen winning...


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## ironman

@sancho

Ever happened to visit 'Gripen for India' campaign website ?

Gripen for India - the Independent choice

Here is an image posted there.. 






Can we see an IRST there.. or rather you like these words..

_A combination of low radar, IR and visual signatures, along with state-of-the-art AESA radar, an IR search and track (IRST) sensor and superior sensor fusion..._

And it continues..
_
With the world&#8217;s only 2nd generation AESA radar, ES 05 Raven, Gripen IN will secure its advantages in situational awareness. The ES 05 Raven developed by Selex-Galileo, together with Saab Microwave, is the only fighter radar on the market with a moving swash plate allowing cover of scan angles up to &#177;100&#176;_

by the way, there is a big HQ picture of Raven is posted out there..

Gripen for India - Tailor-made *Enjoy*

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## SpArK

SpArK said:


> *FLASH! Two Rafales Coming To Aero India 2011​*
> 
> 
> 
> This was a rumour doing the rounds for a while. Finally got an official confirmation from Dassault. Two Rafales will make their first public Indian appearance at Aero India 2011 next month at the IAF's Yelahanka air force base..... Dassault will also be bringing a Falcon 7X and a Falcon 2000LX. More details shortly.
> 
> Livefist - Indian Defence & Aerospace: FLASH! Two Rafales Coming To Aero India 2011



*Further update*

[@6.00PM IST] The Rafale was seen as something of an underdog in the MMRCA competition for a while, though recent reports have put it on top of the pack in the $11-billion deal for 126 fighter aircraft. Conspiciously closed to the media in India, *Dassault's bird has been the least visible of the six contenders in the competition -- a deliberate strategy, it so happens. Its appearance next month outside Bangalore will be the first time the aircraft will be seen in public in India (in September 2009, the aircraft was in India for trials, and was usefully snapped at the time by a single photographer).*

*Dassault believes that the MMRCA competition is a professional tender, and that flaunting the aircraft (at considerable expense, of course) at an air show in India is an unnecessary exercise. It would therefore be interesting to know what's changed now. Does Dassault smell a win? Clearly the company is convinced that this is the one time that it shouldn't be conservative about displaying their contender.

There's no confirmation yet on the MiG-35, but chances are it'll be there too. So it looks like we're going to have a full line up of all six MMRCA horses in a pretty little courseline at Yelahanka. How sweet would that be.*


Livefist - Indian Defence & Aerospace: FLASH! Two Rafales Coming To Aero India 2011


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## SpArK

​

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## SpArK

​


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## razgriz19

when in the world will they make their decision????


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## satishkumarcsc

razgriz19 said:


> when in the world will they make their decision????



From March to June...sometime inbetween. We are talking about the Indian MoD...so expect delays....


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## sancho

ironman said:


> Can we see an IRST there.. or rather you like these words..



Of course we can see it, because an IRST is planed for the Gripen E/F, but we talked about IRST on older Gripen versions. You might have missed the quote that I replied to.


A good report of Vishnu Som that now flown the normal and the Gripen NG:

http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/bi...aster-the-world-s-best-flying-machines/187964


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## sancho

SpArK said:


> *FLASH! Two Rafales Coming To Aero India 2011​*
> 
> 
> 
> This was a rumour doing the rounds for a while. Finally got an official confirmation from Dassault. Two Rafales will make their first public Indian appearance at Aero India 2011 next month at the IAF's Yelahanka air force base. Dassault will also be bringing a Falcon 7X and a Falcon 2000LX. More details shortly.
> 
> Livefist - Indian Defence & Aerospace: FLASH! Two Rafales Coming To Aero India 2011



Excellent news!


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## GORKHALI

sancho said:


> Of course we can see it, because an IRST is planed for the Gripen E/F, but we talked about IRST on older Gripen versions. You might have missed the quote that I replied to.
> 
> 
> A good report of Vishnu Som that now flown the normal and the Gripen NG:
> 
> Bigger Higher Faster: The world's best flying machines



Dint get it ?? Normal gripen NG PART.


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## sancho

FLYING MACHINE said:


> Dint get it ?? Normal gripen NG PART.



I meant the Gripen that is operational now (Gripen C/D) and now tested the Gripen NG prototype as well.


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## luckyyy

sancho said:


> I meant the Gripen that is operational now (Gripen C/D) and now tested the *Gripen NG* prototype as well.



Gripen NG is not a new aircraft , there is nothing like a Gripen NG prototype , it's just a improvment over the Gripen C/D...

even su-30k in IAF has undergone drastic changes since last 12 years , including a all new engine....do you even heard a name called su-30mki prototype...


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## jha

*OT but may have some impact on the competitions*

Exclusive: Rousseff "starting over" in Brazil jets tender

BRASILIA (Reuters) - New Brazilian President Dilma Rousseff has decided to delay awarding a multi-billion dollar Air Force jet contract and reevaluate the finalists' bids, in a move that could signal a realignment of Brazil's strategic and defense alliances, sources with knowledge of the decision told Reuters.

The surprise decision is a blow to France's Dassault, which as recently as last month looked like a lock to quickly win the deal, and puts its U.S.-based rival Boeing back in with a chance.

Rousseff's predecessor, Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva, had while in office repeatedly expressed his preference for Dassault's bid to build at least 36 Rafale jets at a cost of more than $4 billion as part of a long-running effort to modernize the Brazilian Air Force fleet.

The other finalists for the contract were the Gripen NG, produced by Sweden's Saab, and Boeing's F-18.

Lula left office on January 1 without resolving the issue, although many observers believed the final decision in favor of Dassault was a mere formality since Rousseff was Lula's chief of staff and she has retained many of his Cabinet members, including the defense minister.

Instead, Rousseff has opted to "start over" in her evaluation process with no clear preference for any of the finalists, a senior government source said.

"This is her decision now ... and she wants to look carefully at the details," the source said on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the talks.

In a sign that Boeing is still in the running, Rousseff personally asked U.S. senators visiting Brasilia last week for additional technology transfer guarantees from the U.S. Congress to bolster the Boeing bid, sources with knowledge of the conversation said.

The deal is the centerpiece of Brazil's efforts to bolster its defense capabilities at a time when its clout in global affairs is growing in tandem with its economy. The government is also demanding generous transfers of proprietary technology, hoping to bolster its own growing defense industry.

Each of the offers has strengths and weaknesses. Dassault's bid offers good technology transfers but carries a high price tag, officials have said.

Saab's bid could be held back by the perception that Sweden offers a less prestigious strategic relationship than France or the United States. Meanwhile, there are doubts about technology transfers within the Boeing bid.

Political considerations have also weighed. Brazil's relationship with the United States deteriorated in the final years of Lula's presidency, but Rousseff has shown clear signs of wanting to improve bilateral ties. Meanwhile, Lula had strong ties with French President Nicolas Sarkozy and signed a strategic defense agreement with France.

Last Monday, Rousseff asked U.S. Senator John McCain -- the ranking member of the Senate Armed Services Committee, which has jurisdiction over aeronautical issues -- and fellow Republican Senator John Barrasso if the U.S. Congress would be able to provide an additional, formal guarantee of technology transfers in the Boeing bid.

"It's relevant that she was the one who raised the subject," one of the sources said, also speaking on condition of anonymity.

McCain told reporters following his meeting with Rousseff that "there is concern about technology transfer."

"I intend to go back (to Washington) and make sure that it is very clear -- that both the president of the United States and the Congress of the United States make it clear -- that there will be complete technology transfer if the government of Brazil decides to acquire the F-18," McCain said at the time.

Boeing and U.S. officials including Defense Secretary Robert Gates have already provided guarantees regarding technology transfers, but Rousseff may be seeking more generous terms -- or additional promises that could help ease misgivings among senior members of Brazil's armed forces and defense ministry, many of whom have favored the French bid.

HUGE STAKES FOR COMPANIES, BRAZIL

It's unclear how long Rousseff's evaluation will take, the senior government source said. She could choose to review existing bids rather than demand a total do-over of the technical portion of the bids, which could take years.

A spokesperson for the president's office declined comment on Sunday.

The delay will prolong a process that began nearly a decade ago under Lula's predecessor, Fernando Henrique Cardoso, and has seen several ups and downs for the bidders.

The stakes only seem to grow over time. The contract will likely be worth much more than the initial bids, which have been reported by Brazilian media in the $4 billion to $6 billion range. Maintenance contracts will be lucrative, and Brazil could eventually buy more than 100 aircraft.

Boeing is willing to provide "any additional information" regarding its bid, company spokesperson Marcia Costley said in an e-mailed statement.

"We stand ready to discuss our proposal with the new administration, who will be responsible for the success or failure of this high-visibility acquisition and deserves to understand how it will be managed and implemented over the next decade," Costley said.

Saab spokesman Erik Magni said the company was unaware of any changes to the bidding process but was encouraged by the recent change in administration.

"Hopefully (Rousseff) comes in with more of a clean slate -- has another way of looking at it than the previous president. That can be positive for us," Magni said.

A spokesperson for Dassault declined comment.

French defense sources told Reuters they had heard preliminary indications that there would be an overhaul of the bidding process under Rousseff.

The sale is especially critical for Dassault because it would be the first export order for the multi-role Rafale. The family-owned company's defense exports have been under pressure for several years as it struggles to repeat the success of the previous generation of Mirage warplanes.

As recently as January 4, French Defense Minister Alain Juppe said negotiations were "on the right track" with Brazil.

One factor that may work in Boeing's favor going forward is a shift in Brazil's relationship with the United States.

Lula's close relationship with Iran, and his unsuccessful attempt to mediate an international dispute over that country's nuclear program resulted in a chill in ties between Brasilia and Washington that spilled over into trade. However, advisers say Rousseff is eager to improve relations with Washington, which she sees a potential commercial ally at a time of global financial uncertainty and growing strains with China over Beijing's trade policies


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## sancho

luckyyy said:


> Gripen NG is not a new aircraft , there is nothing like a Gripen NG prototype , it's just a improvment over the Gripen C/D...
> 
> even su-30k in IAF has undergone drastic changes since last 12 years , including a all new engine....do you even heard a name called su-30mki prototype...



 Did you saw the NDTV report?

*Gripen NG prototype for flighttests and tech demonstrations:*






*Su 30MKI prototype for the same reasons:*







> The first MKI prototype, an Su-27 UB conversion, that crashed in Le Bourget Air Show on 12 June 1999. (Photo Sukhoi)



More here:

Sukhoi Su-30 MKI


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## Water Car Engineer

India is getting Gripen IN not NG. Or are they basically the same thing?

Gripen - The wings of your nation - Gripen NG for India


Griphen is a bad *** plane, but it has American tech in it and Im sure USA can put pressure on Sweden like with Israel recently..


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## luckyyy

sancho said:


> Did you saw the NDTV report?



you think those NDTV people know more about planes then you or me...


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## the rafter

Liquid said:


> India is getting Gripen IN not NG. Or are they basically the same thing?



They both are same. NG= Next Generation, its just called Gripen IN for the INdian MMRCA competition.


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## Gabbar

Eurofigher all the way !!!​


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## baker

i wanna gripen to be selected................. because
1:low cost
2:comes with all the features that EFT or rafale is offering
3:complete TOT includes AESA
4:offerd partenship with HAL for AMCA


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## satishkumarcsc

I still support Rafale and F 18 E/F for MMRCA.


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## angeldemon_007

> *India Likely to Give Order for 126 Fighter Jets by December*
> BY NIKHIL GULATI
> 
> NEW DELHI -- India is expected to award an order for 126 fighter jets for its air force by the end of December, Junior Defense Minister M.M. Pallam Raju said Wednesday.
> 
> "I am hopeful of awarding it by the end ...



source : India Likely to Give Order for 126 Fighter Jets by December - WSJ.com

Gaaliyan kam pad jaaye, par ye log nahi sudhrenge....I don't get it, what these guys do in their offices ??/


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## shanixee

angeldemon_007 said:


> source : India Likely to Give Order for 126 Fighter Jets by December - WSJ.com
> 
> Gaaliyan kam pad jaaye, par ye log nahi sudhrenge....I don't get it, what these guys do in their offices ??/



Hey guys why are u taking so long...u hve learnt so much about these planes....wat else do u need or want...It should be easy for your leadership to decide now...


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## duhastmish

angeldemon_007 said:


> source : India Likely to Give Order for 126 Fighter Jets by December - WSJ.com
> 
> Gaaliyan kam pad jaaye, par ye log nahi sudhrenge....*I don't get it, what these guys do in their offices ??*/



waiting for fourth generation to become totally obsolete. then india will go for it because other country will have their wishlist filled up. 

India will get it quicker.........

MRCA is a joke now after the amount of time these people took. if they decide by 2012 and when would the induction start????

by the time india will get a decent number of squadran say 4 18x4- 72 .

it will be all obsolete , and the up gradation will be on the way.

but atleast offical will milk lot of mullah out of it.


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## angeldemon_007

> Hey guys why are u taking so long...u hve learnt so much about these planes....wat else do u need or want...It should be easy for your leadership to decide now...


You guys are lucky that your country is ruled by your military, ours by bureaucrats and Politicians.

I watched a video of Barkha dutt on Army's day. In that video, a point was raised that all the IAS officers should at first serve for at least 3-5 years in Indian army.


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## shanixee

angeldemon_007 said:


> You guys are lucky that your country is ruled by your military, ours by bureaucrats and Politicians.
> 
> I watched a video of Barkha dutt on Army's day. In that video, a point was raised that all the IAS officers should at first serve for at least 3-5 years in Indian army.



Guys its a friendly advice.....rather then putting so much $billions on MRCA...if india has put half of money on R&D since 2006...when they initieated MRCA they would hve been jumping wild with the joy of result...

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## SpArK

shanixee said:


> Guys its a friendly advice.....rather then putting so much $billions on MRCA...if india has put half of money on R&D since 2006...when they initieated MRCA they would hve been jumping wild with the joy of result...



MRCA is for plugging the gap in squadron strength , if that money is pumped into R&D what will be the alternative.. ?

Tie the missiles and radars on scientists and throw them at enemy?

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## duhastmish

SpArK said:


> MRCA is for plugging the gap in squadron strength , if that money is pumped into R&D what will be the alternative.. ?
> 
> Tie the missiles and radars on scientists and throw them at enemy?



plugging which gap ????? when our coffins are killing young pilots , this whole filling the gap sound bullshyt.

it took too much time and if its delayed by some more time - because of change of govt or budget or lazyness - this will get worst. 

mrca should have been placed and done deal - at-least 2 years ago.

technology is fast fading obsolete. by new upcoming fifth gen and ucav ,


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## shanixee

SpArK said:


> MRCA is for plugging the gap in squadron strength , if that money is pumped into R&D what will be the alternative.. ?
> 
> Tie the missiles and radars on scientists and throw them at enemy?



Pakistan was facing the same situation...or 40 years old Mirages and F7..the gap was going wide...but they still invested in JF17....1 beacuse no other country was willing and if willing they was no assurity that the sale will go till the end....2nd the policy makers or the Generals do study abt any possible conflict and they also study the power of the enemy....as far as indian policy makers are concern they also do the same...they also study and know very well the potential power of PAF in any conflict...the point I am trying to tell is that they could easily afford to send this money for R&D and put pressure for LCA tejjas...now If i take word from any Indian member that it is 4+ gen fighter then why do u need MRCA...tejjas is late MRCA is late...this MRCA is becoming pride issue for all countries and can make indian possition very bad at the end...


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## angeldemon_007

> plugging which gap ????? when our coffins are killing young pilots , this whole filling the gap sound bullshyt.


No its actually true. I don't know why you said that. I mean every Indian knows the status of our Migs, how many pilots they have killed. If by chance we get into a war with Pakistan at the moment, we would face a very big blow. 

We really need these fighters...



> technology is fast fading obsolete. by new upcoming fifth gen and ucav ,


Its not fading so fast. Right now only US has fifth gen fighters. Only by 2020, 12-15 countries will be able to field fifth gen fighters and except US, Russia, China, India and England rest of the countries will not field enough 5th gen fighters.

As far as the reports are coming many countries are even backing out of the F35 project even the big countries like UK are thinking of relying on their Typhoon instead of F35.

Even france has no plans for 5th gen fighter. Yeah they have a plan for a UCAV but it will take time.

As far as the UCAV are concerned only US has made sufficient development in this field. It would take them 5-10 years to make the final prototype of UCAV and then the production would start. Rest of the UCAV are far away, they would come in production only between 2020-2025.


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## SpArK

duhastmish said:


> plugging which gap ????? when our coffins are killing young pilots , this whole filling the gap sound bullshyt.
> 
> it took too much time and if its delayed by some more time - because of change of govt or budget or lazyness - this will get worst.
> 
> mrca should have been placed and done deal - at-least 2 years ago.
> 
> technology is fast fading obsolete. by new upcoming fifth gen and ucav ,




I do agree MRCA deal is a delayed one.. but the fighters competing including EF,Rafale, Gripen, Mig are quite new...

technology is obsolete?

We dont need 100% fighters that is 5th gen.. 4.5 will also have its role.. and they too will evolve..

Apart from US no country has anything in its fleet and they do operate 4 and 4.5 fighters and will operate for a long time..

Our procurement plan for FGFA is on track.. so worries..


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## Archie

Chill guys 
all this is not going to make a significant impact on Sqd strength 
THE 6 MONTH delay which u guys see is becoz of offset negotiations with vendors
As u know GOI wants critical subsystem as part of 50&#37; Offset , not useless subsystems like the case of C130 Hercules 
Believe me MOD and IAF have already shortlisted the fighters for which it will begin negotiations 
Earliar it was said that Shortlist would be annouced after Aero India while contract would be signed in June 
Now knowing Indian Babus and Negotiators , they simply cannot complete the Bargaining within 3-4 Months after announcement of Shortlist , u have to give them 8-12 Months 
Even if mmrca is signed by end of 2011 , it would still be good 
Let me tell u another thing If mmrca induction is delayed Beyond 2015 , IAF will order another batch of 30-40 Su30mki of upgraded standard


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## angeldemon_007

> THE 6 MONTH delay which u guys see is becoz of offset negotiations with vendors


There was a reports a couple of months back that offset negotiations are completed.



> Let me tell u another thing If mmrca induction is delayed Beyond 2015


I hope you are wrong because if this is true then it would be by 2022-2025 that these fighters will be fully inducted in our IAF.
I thought the induction was to start from 2013.


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## Storm Force

MMRCA deselect to top 3 contenders during Aero india next month.

Winner to be annouced 6 months later between July and Sept

First sqd to be formed 18 months later ie mid 2013

L;icense production to start a further 18 months after 1st Sdq. ie 2015

Total 126 (108 license build over 7 years) = 2022


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## angeldemon_007

> L;icense production to start a further 18 months after 1st Sdq. ie 2015


Is this final ?// Why a delay of 2 years after the 1st squadron ??/


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## GareebNawaz

I think we wil have all mmrca aircraft by 2017? 2022 seems far fetched and surely IAF will not wait that long for these aircraft. Think about it. Mig 21 bis can only be operational til 2017. The gap needs to be filed quickly so we won't have to air till 2022 for all mmrca planes.


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## angeldemon_007

> I think we wil have all mmrca aircraft by 2017


108 fighters/3 =36 fighter per year (2015,16 & 17).

Its hard, we don't have this big infrastructure. Also HAL and ADA will also be busy in LCA and Su30 mki. I don't think its possible right now. We produce around 12-15 Su30 mki per year(please correct if i am wrong). Similar kind of production unit will be there for LCA also.


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## GareebNawaz

^^ i didnt think of the fact we have other planes we will be manufacturing. But if HAL knows that they are faced with this ordeal and know their infrastrcture is not sufficent enough, dont they address that to the gov't so they can build more factories on order to match the demand? i mean it is our country's air defence at stake.


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## GareebNawaz

BTW i am newbie heere and have much to learn about indian armed forces. =(


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## angeldemon_007

> I think we wil have all mmrca aircraft by 2017





> i didnt think of the fact we have other planes we will be manufacturing


I am sorry but this is the current situation.



> But if HAL knows that they are faced with this ordeal and know their infrastrcture is not sufficent enough, dont they address that to the gov't so they can build more factories on order to match the demand?


Yeah HAL is increasing the capacity because right now we don't have the facility to even produce a new aircraft. HAL is expanding its capacity but i don't think we would be producing more than 10-15 MMRCA per year along with 30-35 other fighters(LCA and MKI). Actually it would be a big facility in all but our problem is that by that time we would be producing 3 different fighters simultaneously. Just tell me which country does that ??


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## Gabbar

*Deadline Emerges For India's $10B Warplane Deal*

*NEW DELHI - India could award the $10 billion Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) contract by the end of the year, according to the country's defense minister. *

M.M. Pallam Raju, the minister of state for defense, said on the sidelines of a Jan. 19 conference here that the warplane contest could be decided by December. The conference was hosted by an industrial lobby group, the Associated Chambers of Commerce and Industry of India.

"I am hopeful of awarding it by the end of this year," Raju said.

*The MMRCA program, for the purchase of 126 planes, is running behind schedule, The Indian Defence Ministry has made no formal announcement on the short-listing of aircraft after flight trials last year.* 

Raju said the ministry still has to carry out a comparative analysis of different vendors in terms of offset and transfer of technology offers before the financial bids are opened.

Earlier this month, a secret file pertaining to the MMRCA's offset program was lost and later recovered by Delhi police. An internal inquiry by the Defence Ministry has so far not named any individual behind the lapse, sources said.

Six aircraft vying for the MMRCA contract went through field evaluations, a series of flight trials and ground tests, in mid-2010. They include two U.S. fighter jets, Boeing's F/A-18 and Lockheed Martin's F-16, as well as the Rafale, built by France's Dassault; the MiG-35, built by RAC MiG of Russia; the Eurofighter Typhoon; and the Gripen, built by Saab of Sweden.

*Damn, we have to wait one more year???? Buy the damn thing already.....ggggeeezzzzzz*


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## jha

Here comes Super Hornet with its new Goodies..

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## jha

> Conformal Fuel Tanks,Stealthy Weapons pod,An infrared search and track sensor and missile and laser warning system are among the upgrade options on offer.Uprated engines and large area cockpit are also part of growth road map


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## Hulk

I think we should go for Super Hornets. Let's not get over bothered about sanctions.


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## GORKHALI

@ rabbit - and what about EUMA ,CISMOA ETC ETC ?? You know without signing this ,they gonna strip down many sensors ,communication links etc etc after that am sure even F/18 Hornet will be better.. Better they change the rules for india or there are many like eurofighter and rafale..


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## GORKHALI

dont forget to drop your thankz

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## SpArK

> "On the business side, Commerce Secretary Locke will travel to India in February to attend Aero India, the biannual Indian aerial fair that has grown in importance as India itself has grown.
> 
> "India will soon announce the winners of a tender worth up to $12 billion to supply 126 medium multi-range combat aircraft - a competition in which both Boeing and Lockheed Martin have entered their jets," Blake said in his remarks.




Hillary Clinton to visit India in coming months for strategic dialogue - World - DNA


----------



## jha

For RAFALE Lovers..

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## drunken-monke

graphican said:


> Euro-fighter is the best choice considering the Indian requirements. BUT having said that, I would say its not the abilities of fighter plane alone but Geo-Politics is going to play a big role and probably the predominant role in the case of MMRCA which has been reason for India to wait and let contending players add more and more weight to their deal.



Yes you said correctly that geopolitical reasons would govern the deal majorly and its wont be totaly based on technical grounds.. 
Now the problem with Mig 35- Its engine failed to start at high altitude trials. Its dilivery cant be scheduled before 2014. Though it offers R 77 of 175 km capacity and AESA radar, its base is old one (Mig 29). 

Problems with Eurofighter- High cost, Dont have AESA radar, Weapons system is not that much developed campared to Rafel. Not war proven, delivery would be delayed since few other countries are in line.. But said that it would also give some advantages such as indirect partnership with EU and future weapons, geopolitical reasons.

Poblems associated with F 16 IN- Platform is quite old (though war proven). Pakistan knows its capabilities very well since past 30 yrs.. US would stop manufacturing for itself. Incase of sanctions unvailability of spares would hamper and also complete Tech transfer would not be possible or upto what level and end user monitoring clause by US..Advantages offcource AESA radar, advanced weapons, geopolitical reasons..

F18 SH- Costly, and same as that of f16IN. Also its a moreover naval fighter plane...so have to think about it. But in ma opinion it would be deffinately a strong contender....

Rafel- Strongest contender..only problem is cost and they wont gonna offer SPECTRA EW suit... 

Gripen- Wont gonna make justice with LCA tejas.. though have a advantage of very much cheapness...

Lets see which one wins the contest 

With regards
Drunken Monke
Shrikant Parwate (Aurangabad India)


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## drunken-monke

PANDORA said:


> dont forget to drop your thankz



hey nice data of weapon system
thanks


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## drunken-monke

jha said:


> For RAFALE Lovers..



that shows the multiple role of a fighter jet. IMO it is the strongest contender.. even better than EF.. Very few know that typhoon lost to rafel in practice exercises.. and only one who beat this bird is F 22 in their friendly encounter..


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## angeldemon_007

> IMO it is the strongest contender.. even better than EF.. Very few know that typhoon lost to rafel in practice exercises..


Yeah i am sure very few people knows about this.....  Ad you are one of them...

But you might be right...Rafale is no doubt a very lethal weapon.

Can anyone share the capability of Rafale's Aesa ??


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## SpArK

angeldemon_007 said:


> Yeah i am sure very few people knows about this.....  Ad you are one of them...
> 
> But you might be right...Rafale is no doubt a very lethal weapon.
> 
> Can anyone share the capability of Rafale's Aesa ??



AESA for the RAFALE

http://www.strategypage.com/militaryforums/6-54927/page29.aspx

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## rockstarIN

*Deadline Emerges For India's $10B Warplane Deal*

EW DELHI - India could award the $10 billion Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) contract by the end of the year, according to the country's defense minister.

M.M. Pallam Raju, the minister of state for defense, said on the sidelines of a Jan. 19 conference here that the warplane contest could be decided by December. The conference was hosted by an industrial lobby group, the Associated Chambers of Commerce and Industry of India.
Related Topics

"I am hopeful of awarding it by the end of this year," Raju said.

The MMRCA program, for the purchase of 126 planes, is running behind schedule, The Indian Defence Ministry has made no formal announcement on the short-listing of aircraft after flight trials last year.

Raju said the ministry still has to carry out a comparative analysis of different vendors in terms of offset and transfer of technology offers before the financial bids are opened.

Earlier this month, a secret file pertaining to the MMRCA's offset program was lost and later recovered by Delhi police. An internal inquiry by the Defence Ministry has so far not named any individual behind the lapse, sources said.

Six aircraft vying for the MMRCA contract went through field evaluations, a series of flight trials and ground tests, in mid-2010. They include two U.S. fighter jets, Boeing's F/A-18 and Lockheed Martin's F-16, as well as the Rafale, built by France's Dassault; the MiG-35, built by RAC MiG of Russia; the Eurofighter Typhoon; and the Gripen, built by Saab of Sweden.

---------- Post added at 08:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:37 PM ----------

Deadline Emerges For India's $10B Warplane Deal - Defense News

It suppose to decide in March 2011, again going to get delayed?


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## SpArK

*BAE Systems' Helmet Mounted Symbology System (HMSS)​*


20 January 2011 
BAE Systems is rolling out its helmet mounted symbology system (HMSS) to pilots of the Eurofighter Typhoon. It displays critical information in front of the pilot's eyes, enabling them to 'see through' the body of the aircraft and designate targets just by looking at them, even behind or beneath the aircraft.

Strategic Defence Intelligence talked to Richard Taylor, programme manager for HMSS.

The requirement for a symbology display helmet with 'look at shoot' capability has been a prerequisite for the Typhoon since the beginning of the programme. After years of development and flight trials, the HMSS is now being rolled out to UK Royal Air Force (RAF) pilots, with other Eurofighter partner nations to follow.

The helmet was originally based on a similar product developed for helicopter pilots, but has been extensively modified for the Typhoon environment. A pilot wearing the helmet sees a reflected image on the visor, displaying a symbology of objects picked up by the aircraft's sensors.

"Symbology is a standard representation of real-world objects," explains Taylor. "It displays what you might see in a regular heads up display; triangles to represent enemy aircraft, for example. If you're landing, you'll know by the cueing in the helmet what aircraft are around in your area, reducing pilot workload. "

*Voice control*

It also interacts with a voice control system, enabling the pilot to designate an enemy aircraft or missile as a target by looking at it, and then fire at it by speaking a command.

"If the target is outside the field of vision, such as below the aircraft or to one side of it, it will also cue the pilot to look over that way," says Taylor. "Once they track it, the system will keep tracking it, so they can engage targets over their shoulder by looking at them, designating them and then pointing the aircraft towards it. It makes targeting a lot simpler for the pilot  Top Gun would have been a very dull film if Tom Cruise's character had had an HMSS!

The pilot's head movements are captured by fixed sensors fitted around the cockpit, which detect LEDs on the back of the helmet that act as optical trackers. The avionics system interprets where the pilots head is by the LEDs it can see, triangulating the head position so it knows where the pilot is looking.

*Avionics capability*

Taylor says that the biggest challenge was integrating an avionics capability into a crash helmet. "The helmet not only has to have the symbology display technology in it, it also has to protect the pilot in the event of an ejection," he says. "It also has to be light so that when the pilot is pulling G [experiencing G-force] it doesn't damage their neck, and the weight has to be balanced so that it doesn't skew to one side and the pilot feels comfortable wearing it for a long time.

"It also proved challenging to get all of the display technology to work in such a compact space with a curved surface, while ensuring the pilot is comfortable and does not experience eye strain. This, combined with the fact that the electronics have to be ruggedised and qualified to Eurofighter specifications, means that few components used in the HMSS are off-the-shelf.

"The components have to withstand vibrations and ejecting at high speed, as well as impact, dust and sand," says Taylor. "The helmet is qualified to the normal standards for the cockpit, but also must take into account the fact that it is sat on someone's head and has to provide protection as well."

As the system is designed to be worn for long periods at a time, each pilot is individually fitted for their own helmet like a tailor-made suit for comfort and usability. BAE Systems are also delivering training for HMSS aircrew and maintenance personnel.

*International roll-out*

*The next stage for HMSS will be to roll it out to the air forces of other Eurofighter partner countries.*

"Getting the HMSS into service was a combination of the efforts of a lot of people and I am very keen to introduce this to other air forces now," says Taylor. "The Germans, Italians and Spanish will start using it soon, and getting it rolled out and receiving helpful feedback from the pilots can only be a good thing."

The feedback will influence any future developments and enhancements for the HMSS.

"The feedback we have had to date has been based around the fact that the basic capability is excellent," says Taylor. "Any changes are likely to centre on the display. It's about making best use of the display capability we have, much like buying a DVD player and deciding what film to watch."

BAE Systems' Helmet Mounted Symbology System (HMSS) - Air Force Technology

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## SpArK

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxpuYEa1cuc

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## SpArK

YouTube - TYPHOON B-roll

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## bhagat

Self deleted&#8230;


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## sancho

luckyyy said:


> you think those NDTV people know more about planes then you or me...



Can't speak for you, but I think a guy that has flown with a dozen fighters knows more about them as I do. Apart from that, there is also the Saab official that is explaining the Gripen NG, so there should be no doubt about that anymore.




shanixee said:


> as far as indian policy makers are concern they also do the same...they also study and know very well the potential power of PAF in any conflict...the point I am trying to tell is that they could easily afford to send this money for R&D and put pressure for LCA tejjas...now If i take word from any Indian member that it is 4+ gen fighter then why do u need MRCA...tejjas is late MRCA is late...this MRCA is becoming pride issue for all countries and can make indian possition very bad at the end...




Because MMRCA is not aimed on PAF, but on PLAAF!
Indian policy makers made their studies of PAF and the outcome was that they upgrade the Mirage 2000s, as well as Mig 29s, place all Mig 29s together towards Pakistans borders and replace older Mig 21s with LCA MK2s. Only a few MKI, or MMRCA squads will be placed towards Pakistan, which should tell you how they see the difference.

MMRCA has very less to do with the initial aim of replacing Mig 21, but now has the goal to add more capable fighters and get as much side advantages (ToT, industrial and political) as possible. So it's about detrance against China and improving ourself and the foreign relations.




jha said:


> Here comes Super Hornet with its new Goodies...



Very interesting, nice find Jha!



> The mockup will be displayed ant the AERO INDIA...although the growth plan is not tied directly to Boeings F18E/F offer for Indias MMRCA requirement.
> 
> Boeing is also carful to seperate its international growth road map, *from the navy's upgrade path for the F18 E/F, which it calles the flight plan.
> Upgrades on offer for international customers are not in the navy's budget, but are synergistic with the flight plan, says Kory Mathews, F18 E/F programm vice president.
> The international growth road map is a menu of options available individually, or in combination to increase the capability...
> 
> ...The EPE is in Indias proposal to meet Indias requirement for transonic acceleration in the air interception role, because the wing is designed for low carrier langing speed...
> 
> ...There is a lot of interest says Mathews, who holds out the potential to co-develop some elements with international partners. *


*


To sum it up, on the one side we have options that international customers can have in addition to the normal F18SH capabilities, in case they don't fit to their requirements. These options are not in the budget of the USNs upgrade plan, which means they must be developed separately, but on the other hand can included into the USN fighters later too, if an international customer orders them first.

In regard to MMRCA it is important to understand that these upgrades are not on all on offer for India so far, obviously because they need time to be developed and ready, which shouldn't meet the timelines. The GE414 EPE engine on the other hand is proposed for India in the MMRCA to meet the requirements in the interception role, which is a very important point!
Once because it confirms chhindits.blogspot, that there is a clear requirement of IAF in this role (they said TWR above 1 and at least 9G capable) and secondly that Boeing is not offering the engine as an additional option, but out of neccesity, which confirms the Times of India report as well, that said:




IAF is sceptical about engine, but may reconsider

Click to expand...


The reconsideration should be about the difference that the EPE would make. So if F18SH block 2, then only with the EPE engine, which means further costs and time for the development has to be added and could be offered as a co-development.*

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## sancho

jha said:


> For RAFALE Lovers..



More here:

Rafale News: Rafale weapon load




drunken-monke said:


> that shows the multiple role of a fighter jet. IMO it is the strongest contender.. even better than EF...



When it comes to weapon loads, the Rafale is clearly a strong contender because of the high payload, number of weapon stations and integrated weapons, but we always have to diffe between which of these configs are real, which are only possible on paper.
Most of these weapon loadouts shows the best possible situation, but in any real mission, a fighter always carries 1, or 2 fuel tanks, which occupies heavy weaponstations. Also the higher the load, the less the flight performance of the fighter, which means you will never see a single fighter with 4 cruise missiles in a strike mission.
Another important point that many people forget is the fact that not all weapons that are possible, are on offer. The US for example, often denies cruise missiles for export customers, that's why countries gets European fighters, in addition (UAE - Mirage 2000 / Rafale, alongside F16 B60, Saudi Arabia - Tornado / EF, alongside F15s, Greece - Mirage 2000 along side F16 B52) and we recently heared about the problems that could come up with Swedens foreign policy and weapon sales, during conflicts.


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## ceejay

SpArK said:


> AESA for the RAFALE
> 
> Rafale Thread



the last i heard, IAF was dissatisfied with AESA radar in Rafale


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## SpArK

ceejay said:


> the last i heard, IAF was dissatisfied with AESA radar in Rafale



sancho will help u with that one..


Right sancho?

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## sancho

ceejay said:


> the last i heard, IAF was dissatisfied with AESA radar in Rafale



Any sources? So far only UAE said that, but they said that about the EWS, the engines and the weapon configs as well and still wants the Rafale, because that's their normal behavior. Nothing of the shelf, everything must be better, money doesn't matter!


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## angeldemon_007

> the last i heard, IAF was dissatisfied with AESA radar in Rafale


I am also trying to find about that aesa but could not find enough. But yeah whatever i have learnt, its not that attractive. 



> So if F18SH block 2, then only with the EPE engine, which means further costs and time for the development has to be added and could be offered as a co-development.


Is this such a deciding factor ??/ American firms have not good impression till yet. These companies are too big and too strong and they are able to fool us in offset on every deal. 

I don't think we would get enough in TOT even we are exempt from any kind of sanctions. 



> Boeing is also carful to seperate its international growth road map, *from the navy's upgrade path for the F18 E/F, which it calles the flight plan.*


*
Thats a good news. 

But i think Typhoon deal is better, they are offering us thrust vector capability also. Apart from this there is also EF Typhoon 2020. We could ask to be part of that, it is offered to Turkey.*


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## sancho

angeldemon_007 said:


> I don't think we would get enough in TOT even we are exempt from any kind of sanctions.



I don't think we will get much ToT even for the normal engine, but to fund the development of an foreign engine doesn't make sense for India for sure. That makes the F18SH less likely, at least on operational capabilities, but as I always say it is the political choice in the competition.




angeldemon_007 said:


> Thats a good news.



Actually it's not, because that means, these options are not funded, which increases the costs, it's like the 3D TVC of EF, or the HMS on Rafale.




angeldemon_007 said:


> Apart from this there is also EF Typhoon 2020. We could ask to be part of that, it is offered to Turkey.



Just PR on Turkish media, there is nothing like a Typhoon 2020 and recent news said they want to join the KFX 5. gen fighter development, which rules EF out anyway.

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## angeldemon_007

> Actually it's not, because that means, these options are not funded, which increases the costs, it's like the 3D TVC of EF, or the HMS on Rafale.


Yeah you are right about the increased cost. But 3D TVC of EF is included in the proposal, we don't have to pay extra for that.


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## luckyyy

.................


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## luckyyy

sancho said:


> Any sources? So far only UAE said that, but they said that about the EWS, the engines and the weapon configs as well and still wants the Rafale, because that's their normal behavior. Nothing of the shelf, everything must be better, money doesn't matter!



only UAE said that...?



> the aircraft failed to demonstrate claimed radar performance or its claimed ability to supercruise. *Singapore was also reportedly unimpressed by Rafale's *much vaunted "Omni role" capability. "Show us, properly" was said to have been the reaction,
> Electronic Aviation - Dassault Rafale - Problems



do anybody thinks that IAF requirments are less then of UAE & Singapore..

now ,does only UAE ans singapore said that...?.


> members of the National Assembly's Finance and Defence Commissions, and there have been reports of disagreements between Dassault and DGA about cost increases and obsolescence. According to Defence Analysis (p.17, Vol 8.No.12 December 2005) *Dassault have called the RBE2 radar 'fatally flawed' alleging that its range was "inadequate" and averring that the Rafale therefore relied on AWACS support to overcome this.* The DGA also described the Rafale's OSF ("Optronique Secteur Frontal") as "obsolescent"
> Dassault Rafale at AllExperts





> Rafale AESA radar is capable of terrain following, avoidance, threat avoidance, raid assesment, high resolution mapping,search track etc. *The best range is around 100 kms*
> Dassault Rafale
> *The MMRCA tender calls for a minimum detection range of at least 130 kilometers (about 80 miles). *
> www.kuku.sawf.org/News/60169.aspx
> Dassault Rafale Fails to Meet Indian Air Force MRCA Minimum Performance Requirements | India Defence





> French aviation writer JM Guhl quoted "a list price given at some $66.5 million for the basic "naked" aircraft and almost $145 million with its complete set of sensors and weapons."
> http://www.associatepublisher.com/e/d/da/dassault_rafale.htm


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## ceejay

luckyyy said:


> also the cost didn't fit in the mmrca bill..
> 
> French aviation writer JM Guhl quoted "a list price given at some $66.5 million for the basic "naked" aircraft and almost $145 million with its complete set of sensors and weapons."
> Dassault Rafale at AllExperts



so we can get the basic airframe from France for 66.5 million, and get them upgraded with Israeli avionics. Will save a lot of money and we can get a better aircraft.


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## Mani2020

*The French Fighter Jet That Nobody Wants
*The Rafale has cost $53 billion and is the key to France's defense economy, but it's not selling abroad

*By Carol Matlack*
The Rafale fighter, made by France's Dassault Aviation, is loaded with high-tech avionics, radar, and targeting systems. Now all it needs are customers. France has been peddling the supersonic jet since 2000 and hasn't sold a single one. In the latest setback, Brazil said on Jan. 17 that it would reopen bidding for a fighter contract worth up to $7 billion&#8212;a deal France had thought it was close to sealing last year. Neither Dassault nor the French Defense Ministry would comment on Brazil's decision.

The Rafale's plight signals the end of an era for France. With their Mirage fighter program, developed in the 1950s, the French were able to bolster their national defense, promote new technologies, and provide well-paying jobs&#8212;while recouping much of the cost by exporting hundreds of jets worldwide. Hoping to duplicate that model, the French government has spent some $53 billion on the Rafale, more than the country's $40 billion annual defense budget. But deal after deal has fallen through, with prospective buyers South Korea, Singapore, and Morocco choosing Boeing's (BA) F-15 and Lockheed Martin's (LMT) F-16 over the Rafale.

Midsize suppliers such as France are being outgunned by bigger competitors. The F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, for example, is being developed by a U.S.-led consortium of nine countries that plan to buy more than 2,500 of the planes. That will ensure plenty of revenue from production and upgrades. Britain, Germany, Italy, and Spain have similarly joined forces to produce the new Eurofighter jet. "Nationally driven, nationally financed and controlled production of the most advanced weapons systems is now the exclusive purview of the U.S. and Russia, and in the future, China as well," says Mark Bromley, a senior researcher at the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute, a Swedish think tank.

Changing global politics has worked against France, too. During the Cold War, France successfully marketed the Mirage as an alternative to U.S. and Soviet planes. Other customers, such as the United Arab Emirates, bought French planes after the U.S. balked at providing high-tech weaponry. Now, though, the U.S. is eagerly seeking sales in the Gulf states. Many foreign governments, in turn, see arms deals as a way to forge closer defense ties with the U.S., says Loïc Tribot La Spière, an analyst at the Center for Studies and Prospective Strategy, a Paris think tank. "The sentiment is, 'We buy American because it assures security,' " he says.

The 93 Rafales produced by Dassault so far have gone to the French armed forces. To sustain production, the government has agreed to spend $1.1 billion on more Rafales over three years, even as it tries to pare budget deficits.

Finding customers will only get harder. As the Joint Strike Fighter enters service, U.S. manufacturers are set to increase their share of the $16 billion-a-year fighter aircraft market over the next decade from nearly 58 percent to more than 67 percent, according to forecasts by the Virginia-based Teal Group aerospace consultancy. Eurofighter and Russian manufacturers will get most of the rest, Teal predicts.

The longer the Rafale order book stays empty, the harder it will be to sell the plane, Teal analyst Richard Aboulafia says. "Customers like to see a home government that is determined to keep spending on buying and upgrading the aircraft" with the latest technology. Instead, he says, the Rafale is on budgetary life support. "That's the last thing you want customers to see."

The bottom line: France's decision to go it alone on its fighter program has cost the country $53 billion, with no export sales to offset the price.

Matlack is a Paris correspondent for Bloomberg Businessweek.

Source:The French Fighter Jet That Nobody Wants - BusinessWeek

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## rockstarIN

It was a huge blunder to withdraw from Euro fighter programme in 1985 by France. Now the economy is shrinking, they have to partner with either Russia or India for the future. They are giving signals by deciding to sell war ships to Russia. MMRA will decide whether India wants to go with France or not for the future.


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## angeldemon_007

> Now the economy is shrinking, they have to partner with either Russia or India for the future. They are giving signals by deciding to sell war ships to Russia.


This is not a signal of any kind. Just selling a 2 billion$ product and you think it signals something. I think the french deals with Brazil and India will signal lot more than this.


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## ceejay

angeldemon_007 said:


> This is not a signal of any kind. Just selling a 2 billion$ product and you think it signals something. I think the french deals with Brazil and India will signal lot more than this.



We already gave France a lot to cheer about, my deep feeling is that MMRCA contract is not going to France.
Recent Indradhanus exercise speaks a lot about IAF's intention about the probable candidate.


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## IND151

*



by Mani2020
The French Fighter Jet That Nobody Wants
The Rafale has cost $53 billion and is the key to France's defense economy, but it's not selling abroad

By Carol Matlack
The Rafale fighter, made by France's Dassault Aviation, is loaded with high-tech avionics, radar, and targeting systems. Now all it needs are customers. France has been peddling the supersonic jet since 2000 and hasn't sold a single one. In the latest setback, Brazil said on Jan. 17 that it would reopen bidding for a fighter contract worth up to $7 billion&#8212;a deal France had thought it was close to sealing last year. Neither Dassault nor the French Defense Ministry would comment on Brazil's decision.

The Rafale's plight signals the end of an era for France. With their Mirage fighter program, developed in the 1950s, the French were able to bolster their national defense, promote new technologies, and provide well-paying jobs&#8212;while recouping much of the cost by exporting hundreds of jets worldwide. Hoping to duplicate that model, the French government has spent some $53 billion on the Rafale, more than the country's $40 billion annual defense budget. But deal after deal has fallen through, with prospective buyers South Korea, Singapore, and Morocco choosing Boeing's (BA) F-15 and Lockheed Martin's (LMT) F-16 over the Rafale.

Midsize suppliers such as France are being outgunned by bigger competitors. The F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, for example, is being developed by a U.S.-led consortium of nine countries that plan to buy more than 2,500 of the planes. That will ensure plenty of revenue from production and upgrades. Britain, Germany, Italy, and Spain have similarly joined forces to produce the new Eurofighter jet. "Nationally driven, nationally financed and controlled production of the most advanced weapons systems is now the exclusive purview of the U.S. and Russia, and in the future, China as well," says Mark Bromley, a senior researcher at the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute, a Swedish think tank.

Changing global politics has worked against France, too. During the Cold War, France successfully marketed the Mirage as an alternative to U.S. and Soviet planes. Other customers, such as the United Arab Emirates, bought French planes after the U.S. balked at providing high-tech weaponry. Now, though, the U.S. is eagerly seeking sales in the Gulf states. Many foreign governments, in turn, see arms deals as a way to forge closer defense ties with the U.S., says Loïc Tribot La Spière, an analyst at the Center for Studies and Prospective Strategy, a Paris think tank. "The sentiment is, 'We buy American because it assures security,' " he says.

The 93 Rafales produced by Dassault so far have gone to the French armed forces. To sustain production, the government has agreed to spend $1.1 billion on more Rafales over three years, even as it tries to pare budget deficits.

Finding customers will only get harder. As the Joint Strike Fighter enters service, U.S. manufacturers are set to increase their share of the $16 billion-a-year fighter aircraft market over the next decade from nearly 58 percent to more than 67 percent, according to forecasts by the Virginia-based Teal Group aerospace consultancy. Eurofighter and Russian manufacturers will get most of the rest, Teal predicts.

The longer the Rafale order book stays empty, the harder it will be to sell the plane, Teal analyst Richard Aboulafia says. "Customers like to see a home government that is determined to keep spending on buying and upgrading the aircraft" with the latest technology. Instead, he says, the Rafale is on budgetary life support. "That's the last thing you want customers to see."

The bottom line: France's decision to go it alone on its fighter program has cost the country $53 billion, with no export sales to offset the price.

Matlack is a Paris correspondent for Bloomberg Businessweek.

Source:The French Fighter Jet That Nobody Wants - BusinessWeek

Click to expand...

* if bolded part is true, India has lot chance of negotiations! *if we award them MMRCA then we can force them for complete TOT and latest version of rafale not down graded planes they sell usually.  *

---------- Post added at 04:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:18 PM ----------


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## angeldemon_007

> if bolded part is true, India has lot chance of negotiations! if we award them MMRCA then we can force them for complete TOT and latest version of rafale not down graded planes they sell usually.


I have raised this point earlier also and had a very heated discussion with Sancho...All the contendors are placing their best fighter and their latest version in MMRCA there is no question of downgraded version, some even has to add some extra features to their latest version inorder to meet india's demand and to lure us.
By the way their are reports of reduction in price of european fighters because of euro.


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## duhastmish

rafale will still be a horrible choice. its not very expeinsive to buy but maintainance i very expensive. 

since mot many people are indulged in the programme , it will be majorly India and france that will make it extremely expensive since french will try to give the bigger load to india. 

-xx-x-x-x-x

rafale is a big no - it wont offer much -diplomatically , its too expensive and also future development doesnt look too shiney.


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## baker

actually we shouldnt have this many options..... it is lot confusing....


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## angeldemon_007

> rafale will still be a horrible choice. its not very expeinsive to buy but maintainance i very expensive.


Rafale is one of the best fighter in the race and it is also the most expensive one.



> since mot many people are indulged in the programme , it will be majorly India and france that will make it extremely expensive since french will try to give the bigger load to india.


We are not becoming partner. We are just the customer who will pay for the fighter. Since the French are alone we will get good ToT.

Being the only customer is risky...

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## sancho

angeldemon_007 said:


> Yeah you are right about the increased cost. But 3D TVC of EF is included in the proposal, we don't have to pay extra for that.



No it's not included, because it was developed by the consortium companies only, but no partner country paid for the development, or integration so far. The companies had proposed it for the T3 upgrade, not as a tech to improve maneuverability, because they know EF already is very capable in that regard and the partners would pay extra for it. Their argument was that the fuel consumption could be reduced by 2, or 3%, so could reduce the overall costs, but still no partner shows interest in it, because they know on the other hand it costs more in maintenance again.
Even if we go for EF, I doubt that we will pay extra for TVC, because the costs of EF would be very high anyway and it would have been worth it only if we took that engine + TVC for LCA (which would have been a great choice).




luckyyy said:


> only UAE said that...?



Yes only UAE said that, because the Rafale F3+ including AESA radar was technically evaluated only in the UAE, Swiss, Brazil and India. The earlier competitions like Singapore that you mentioned, were about Rafale F2 with RBE 2 PESA radar!
There are no reports from India, Brazil, or Swiss that talks about issues with the RBE 2 AESA radar (unlike the Gripen radar), although even I think that it offers not the comparable range as the US, or the EF fighter, simply because the small nose of the Rafale is a limiting factor here.
However, it obviously fulfills the requirements and here is a more reliable and up to date source about it:



> *AESA Radar*
> 
> While the first 100 or so Rafales were fitted with the early Thales RBE2 radar, the most important sensor of the next generation Rafale will be the new Thales RBE2 AA active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, which will replace the passive array of the RBE2.
> 
> Thales completed its first active phased array, comprising 1,000 gallium-arsenide Transmit/Receive modules, in 2006. In late April this year, the company said the RBE2 AA had successfully completed a new series of tests on Rafale, carried out jointly with the French DGA defense procurement agency, at the Cazaux flight-test center.
> 
> "This milestone marks the latest step toward qualifying the RBE2 AESA radars this year in readiness *for delivery of the first two units to Dassault Aviation during the first quarter of 2010," Thales stated. "The radars will be installed on the aircraft in 2011 for delivery to the French Air Force early in 2012."*
> 
> In operational terms, the RBE2 AA radar can track many targets in the radar field of view irrespective of the relative location between targets and/or the host aircraft. In addition, the radar provides a significant increase in detection range on enemy aircraft and a significant increase in reliability with respect to previous-generation radars.
> 
> Since the AESA radar antenna comprises a very large number of active modules, the failure of some of these modules has no noticeable effect on the overall performance and reliability of the system. Consequently, the active front end only requires maintenance every 10 years or more, thereby contributing to increased aircraft availability and reducing replacement part costs.
> 
> The RBE2 is a track while scan, monopulse-doppler X-band multimode fire-control radar system built around a modular concept. Air-to-air tracking and air-to-ground mapping functions can be interleaved due to the radars agile beam sweeping capabilities.
> 
> Fitted in the aircrafts pointed nose, the RBE2 provides +/- 60 degree azimuth and elevation coverage and includes the SB-25A MkXII compatible IFF interrogator/transponder with Mode S capability. The IFF system uses phased array antennas just like the Spectra active electronic countermeasures (ECM) antennas.
> 
> The present radar air-to-air modes include long-range search; multi target track and engagement; air combat modes; Non-Cooperative Target Recognition (NCTR); and look down/shoot down functions. *In air-to-air mode, the RBE2 gives a tracking range beyond 60 nautical miles against a 30-square-foot target, with detection ranges up to 75 nautical miles. The radar can track and prioritize up to 40 targets simultaneously and engage up to eight with Mica, and soon Meteor, air-to-air missiles.*
> 
> The RBE2 air-to-ground modes include: Doppler Beam Sharpening (DBS) mapping; SAR mapping; Fixed Target Track (FTT); Sea Surface Search and Track While Scan; Ground Moving Target Identification and Track (GMTI/T); target acquisition and air-to-ground ranging. Terrain following and avoidance modes can be combined to generate 3-D radar maps, thus enabling full automatic terrain following flights using the radar only...



Avionics Magazine :: Serious Squall


- in production now, operational in Rafale from 2012 onwards
- can detect 40 targets at the same time and engage 8 of them
- A2A detection range for a target of 3m2 up to 138Km, tracking at 111Km 


For comparision, here the official specs of the first Zhuk AE that was presented on Aero India 2007: 

- operational from 2013 at the earliest
- can detect 30 targets at the same time and engage 6 of them
- A2A detection range for a target of 3m2 up to 130Km

http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/4484/zhukaemj2.jpg

The Russians later developed a bigger version that is said to have a detection range up to 200Km, but it was way too heavy, so it had to be changed again. The latest flying version should be less heavy, but it's unclear what performance it really has and which version was fielded in the trials.

So as you can see, the RBE 2 AESA might be less capable than the US radars, or the EF radar when it's ready, but at least comparable to the Gripen and Mig in terms of range.


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## typhoon77

> So as you can see, the RBE 2 AESA might be less capable than the US radars, or the EF radar when it's ready, but at least comparable to the Gripen and Mig in terms of range.


 Which is just another point against it when compared to the Super Hornet and the Typhoon. It could be one of the factors that causes it to loose the competition.


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## rajan_united

duhastmish said:


> rafale will still be a horrible choice. its not very expeinsive to buy but maintainance i very expensive.
> 
> since mot many people are indulged in the programme , it will be majorly India and france that will make it extremely expensive since french will try to give the bigger load to india.
> 
> -xx-x-x-x-x
> 
> rafale is a big no - it wont offer much -diplomatically , its too expensive and also future development doesnt look too shiney.



 you forget Mirrage 2000. We already have Dessault aircraft. Rafale is hugely based on it (its main reason of failure in export). Maintaince is not a problem here.

*EF 2000* is best and will WIN the competition.


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## duhastmish

mirage maintenance is so bloody expensive that india instead decided to go for new planes.

Dessault people are worst than russian when it comes to development and maintainance of their planes.


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## SpArK

*Eurofighter_1 Typhoon completes 100,000 flying hours .*


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## Archie

duhastmish said:


> mirage maintenance is so bloody expensive that india instead decided to go for new planes.
> 
> Dessault people are worst than russian when it comes to development and maintainance of their planes.



Maintenance of mirage is actually cheaper than Mig29s of IAF 
what is expensive is the upg of Mirage 2000
I am sure u guys know that a mirage will cost 42 Million USD to upg compared to that a Mig29smt upg cost 15 Million USD and also include an engine transplant which Mirage upg doesnot

Many people within the Air HQ believe that it would be better to buy 28 more mmrca than upgrade 52 Mirage 2000 as it will cost the same and they can retire mirage 2000 by 2020 rather than keeping them till 2030 which was previously expected 
While additional MMRCA will serve till 2050 and would be a far greater Ground attack platform than Mirage 2000H


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## rockstarIN

*Italy takes delivery of five Eurofighters on single day*

HALLBERGMOOS, GERMANY (BNS): Alenia Aeronautica, a partner company of Eurofighter GmbH, has recently delivered five Eurofighter Typhoons to Italy.

The aircraft, designated IS037, IS039, IS040, IS041, IT011, were handed over to the Italian Air Force on a single day on December 28, 2010.

*With this, the total number of Eurofighter deliveries in 2010 went up to 51 &#8211; far higher than had been predicted, Eurofighter said.*

HALLBERGMOOS, GERMANY (BNS): Alenia Aeronautica, a partner company of Eurofighter GmbH, has recently delivered five Eurofighter Typhoons to Italy.

The aircraft, designated IS037, IS039, IS040, IS041, IT011, were handed over to the Italian Air Force on a single day on December 28, 2010.

With this, the total number of Eurofighter deliveries in 2010 went up to 51 &#8211; far higher than had been predicted, Eurofighter said.

The company, on December 22, 2010, had also delivered another Eurofighter to Italy which was the 250th such fighter delivered to the four core customer nations of the programme &#8211; Germany, Italy, Spain and UK &#8211; since 2003 when the first Eurofighter was delivered.

A twin-engine multi-role/swing-role combat aircraft produced by the European consortium Eurofighter GmbH, Eurofighter Typhoon has been ordered by six countries so far that includes Austria and Saudi Arabia besides the four partnering nations.

*Italy, however, had announced last year to bring down its original planned purchase for 121 such fighters to 96 in order to save around $2.6 billion as part of a national debt reduction plan.*


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## angeldemon_007

> @ Sancho
> So as you can see, the RBE 2 AESA might be less capable than the US radars, or the EF radar when it's ready, but at least comparable to the Gripen and Mig in terms of range.


So Typhoon aesa is not yet ready...??/


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## sancho

typhoon77 said:


> Which is just another point against it when compared to the Super Hornet and the Typhoon. It could be one of the factors that causes it to loose the competition.



Doubtful, because AESA radar and a specific range seems to be a requirement and both are already fulfilled by the Rafale, but you don't need the best radar to be deadly in BVR. Unlike the F18SH, the Rafale don't rely on a single sensor only and offers AESA radar for active -, the IRST and the TV channel of FSO, but more important SPECTRA EWS for passive detection and weapon guidance. Combine that with MICA EM, METEOR, or even MICA IR, which can be used at the same BVR ranges as the EM version, data links and the low RCS and you have a great BVR combo!




angeldemon_007 said:


> So Typhoon aesa is not yet ready...??/



No, because the partner countries still did not cleared fundings for the development, it is only pre-funded of the companies for some month. They plan to have the first flight of an operational version in 2013 and the frist EF with AESA to be delivered in 2015 and all this only if the fundings will be ready in time and the development don't run into problems.




rockstar said:


> Italy, however, had announced last year to bring down its original planned purchase for 121 such fighters to 96 in order to save around $2.6 billion as part of a national debt reduction plan.



Actually they reduced the number of EFs, in favour of F35s, because that is the fighter they put their focus on, just like UK. The more they will get into financial problems, the less EFs they will procure and try to divert their orders to other contries, or cancell them completely.


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## sancho

This should be the F18SH growth mock-up, that they will present at Aero India, showing optional techs and upgrades for the future:


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## angeldemon_007

@Sancho
BUt you told me previously that aesa is already made and you even posted an article....



> Euroradar Caesar active electronically scanned array takes flight in Eurofighter Typhoon
> 
> May 14, 2007
> 
> Basildon, U.K., 14 May 2007. The Euroradar Caesar active electronically scanned array (AESA) variant of the Captor radar system has completed a flight test program in the Eurofighter Typhoon aircraft. The flights were conducted by EADS from the Manching facility in Germany.


Euroradar Caesar active electronically scanned array takes flight in Eurofighter Typhoon - Military & Aerospace Electronics


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## angeldemon_007

> This should be the F18SH growth mock-up, that they will present at Aero India, showing optional techs and upgrades for the future:


Yeah, it might be possible. Later you know, they will say they are abandoning this project. But their might be a different angle to this, this growth plan might mean a regular income for these guys...


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## sancho

SpArK said:


> *Eurofighter_1 Typhoon completes 100,000 flying hours .*




Here is a nice video about it, showing EFs of all partner and customer countries:

Eurofighter: Video Library




angeldemon_007 said:


> @Sancho
> BUt you told me previously that aesa is already made and you even posted an article....



The firstflight of the AESA tech demonstrator, similar to the Gripen NG with the first Selex AESA tech demonstrator, that had it's firstflight in 2009.
However, both are only early versions, with the final design and development still coming only. The first flight of the Raven AESA in the final Gripen E/F is also planed for 2013 only, which could be a reason why they try to sell us Gripen C/D as a stop gap, just like the EF consortium tries to sell EFs without AESA first.
And that is the big difference that the French AESA has, by the time the others makes their first flights, it will be even in operational service. When they others deliver the first pre-mature versions, the French might even upgrade the RBE 2:



> *Radar revolution: the arrival of gallium nitride components opens up new applications for radars, including jamming and telecomm*
> 
> ... In this way, explains Thales Airborne Systems technical director Pierre Fossier, it should be possible to launch the first system applications in 2010. In France, one of the leading candidates for the new technology is the offensive jammer, a capacity that the French Air Force has had its eyes on for several years, and which has already given rise to the Carbone airborne demonstrator. The performance of the system attracted a lot of attention at NATO's Mace X electronic warfare exercise in the year 2000.
> 
> The DGA procurement branch of the French MoD is continuing to provide limited funding for exploratory work by Thales while awaiting for national budgets to kick in to complete development. GaN would allow for a reduction in the size of the jammer, potentially clearing the way for integration into a combat aircraft...
> 
> ... *Rafale lead*
> 
> As far as Europe's combat aircraft programmes are concerned, the Rafale seems to have established a lead over Typhoon and Gripen in the race to integrate an active array antenna. *This is primarily because--unlike its competitors--the transition to active-array technology on the Rafale's electronically scanned RBE2 was planned from the outset, avoiding the need for the more extensive (and expensive) modifications required on the mechanical antennas of the Typhoon and Gripen. *The increase in range that the new technology will bring is deemed essential if the aircraft is to fully exploit the potential of the future ramjet-powered Meteor missile, due to enter service in the early years of the next decade. Without it, pilots will rely on target designation from another platform to strike targets at the limits of the Meteor envelope...
> 
> ... *According to Thales, the RBE2 AA will offer 50% greater range than the current RBE2 and a huge increase in reliability--major overhaul every 7-10 years, compared with a current TWT service life of around 100 hours. It will also be possible to generate SAR images in air-to-ground mode with 1 m resolution or better, and to detect at long range low-reflection airborne targets, including stealthy UAVs and UCAVs.*
> 
> No state funding has yet been made available to fund the active-array transition for Typhoon and Gripen. Euroradar (Selex SAS/EADS/Galileo Avionica/Indra) launched its own Caesar demonstrator programme for Typhoon in 2003. The demonstrator made its first flight on a BAC 1-11 testbed in February 2006. Caesar combines the back end from the existing Captor with an antenna partially featuring active GaAs modules from UMS (Germany) and Filtronic (UK). Captor air-to-air modes have been partially adapted to the new antenna. Caesar was flight tested on a Typhoon development aircraft (DA5) in May.
> 
> Industry is hopeful of an order as part of the Tranche 3 batch of Eurofighters, currently due to be ordered in 2009 for delivery starting in 2012. According to industry officials, the operating cost gains due to improved reliability would compensate for the extra cost due to development of the new antenna...
> 
> ...*On the other hand, if the power of GaN is used to trim the number of modules, this means that the size of the antenna--and the nose section of the aircraft--can be significantly reduced, with an obvious payoff in terms of aerodynamics and stealth.* The aircraft's stealth characteristics would be further improved by the fact that, by sharing the same antenna for radar, jamming and communications functions, there would be a reduction in the number of reflectors for enemy radars.
> 
> Another consequence of the smaller antenna is on increase in beam width. The tradeoff is a slight loss of resolution, but this is not a major problem in air-to-air situations where missiles have their own active seekers that can compensate for shortcomings in target designation. In air-to-ground modes, however, a wider beam enables a given area to be covered more quickly to establish cartography. Also, in jamming mode, the aiming accuracy in relation to a hostile transmitter would be less demanding.




Radar revolution: the arrival of gallium nitride components opens up new applications for radars, including jamming and telecomm - Entrepreneur.com


So with the GaN modules, the RBE 2 AESA could increase the capabilities even more, without the smaller size nose beeing a problem. Moreover, these modules will increase the capabilities of SPECTRA even further!


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## angeldemon_007

> So with the GaN modules, the RBE 2 AESA could increase the capabilities even more, without the smaller size nose beeing a problem. Moreover, these modules will increase the capabilities of SPECTRA even further!


I think we should also put some money in this and ask for JV with France in this field as it will be very helpful in our future projects like AMCA and FGFA...


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## SpArK

*Brazil mudslides delay Gripen fighter decision​*





Brazilian Defense Minister Nelson Jobim on Tuesday ruled out for now a decision on a multi-billion dollar fighter aircraft contract vied for by France, Sweden and the United States.



Jobim said he hopes the competition will be resolved this year but at the moment the government is too tied up dealing with the aftermath of floods and mudslides that left 830 people dead and 25,000 homeless near Rio.

"This is not the moment to decide," he said. 

"We are in an emergency situation, with rains and disasters," the state-run Agencia Brasil quoted him as saying.

The contract for 36 fighters has an initial value estimated at $4 billion to $10 billion, with the possibility of many more aircraft in the future.

*But the competition has dragged on for years, with President Dilma Rousseff inheriting it from her predecessor Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva.*

Jobim indicated that despite the latest setback, the bidding would not go back to square one, and said Russia's Sukhoi fighters would not be allowed back into the running.

"There is nothing like that," he said. 

"The Russians were already disqualified at the start of the process."

He said the only fighters under consideration were the French-made Rafale, the Swedish Gripen NG and the US F-18 Super Hornet.

A decision on the bid will be followed by at least 12 months of complex negotiations on technical matters and the terms of the deal, Jobim said.

Brazil wants the deal to include not just the aircraft but also technology transfers. Lula had said he favored the Rafale, but in the end he opted to leave the decision to his successor.
AFP/The Local (news@thelocal.se)

Brazil mudslides delay Gripen fighter decision - The Local


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## rockstarIN

IF EF AESA will not be ready before 2015 and its in technical evaluation stage, what is the use to go after them?

Can anybody tell, apart from F-18, which competitor will get AESA integrated and supply ASAP to India?


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## rockstarIN

And IAF will get MRCA in around 2018 to use in war? if we get the deliveries starting from 2014???


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## sancho

angeldemon_007 said:


> I think we should also put some money in this and ask for JV with France in this field as it will be very helpful in our future projects like AMCA and FGFA...



As the article stated, the GaN modules will be developed by Thales and EADS and both are participating in the AESA radar co-development for Tejas MK2, so there is a chance to get these in future as well. If Rafale would be chosen in MMRCA, it would even be a good idea to develop a radar for Tejas based on RBE 2, or commonality and reduced costs (at the moment IAF has 7 different fighters with 7 different radars!).




rockstar said:


> IF EF AESA will not be ready before 2015 and its in technical evaluation stage, what is the use to go after them?
> 
> Can anybody tell, apart from F-18, which competitor will get AESA integrated and supply ASAP to India?




You just need to look at the fighter versions that attended the trials, to see the development status:

*F18SH *- First, all Block 2 features on offer are fully developed and operational, unlike the EPE engine, or other upgrade options that we could choose if we pay extra.

*F16IN* - Second, based on the Block 60, with most parts developed and already operational with the UAE. They even fielded the new CFTs in the trials, but I'm not sure how far the avionics changes are.

*Rafale F3+* - Third, came with AESA radar and most likely the M88 2E4 engine, that is upgraded for more cost-effectiveness, and the targeting pod. Things left are upgrades on FSO (IRST/TV Channel) and EWS, that will be ready by 2012.

*Mig 35* - Fourth, no real Mig 35 prototype available, only modified Mig 29K and KUBs entered the trials, but with an early AESA radar. It's not clear which version exactly, but for sure not the final one that is said to offer 200Km range. Russia officially stated that the production of Mig 35 can only start by 2013, but delays by the lack of orders and funds are likely.

*EF* - Fifth, German Luftwaffe T2 entered the trials, without AESA radar, without IRST, without full EWS, or A2G capabilities. Weapon trials was done in the UK, by british EFs and it's likely that they showed the the CEASAR AESA radar tech demonstrator as well. But till the partner countries get to a final decision about fundings and capabilities of the T3 upgrade, all the proposed techs and weapons are only theoretical.

*Gripen NG, or E/F* - Last, older Gripen C/D versions made the trials, because no final Gripen E/F prototype is available and even the Gripen NG tech demonstrator was not available, nor capable to do it all. The NG came with AESA demonstrator, one month delayed and made only the Leh trials again. Weapon trials were made in Sweden, but most likely on the older versions again, because the NG can use weapons so far (if at all A2A missiles only).


Only the US and the French have AESA radars ready now, the Russians maybe in time, the Gripen and EF hardly in time and in a pre-mature developmentstage (Aviationweek reported EF AESA will only have A2A modes by then).

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## sancho

SpArK said:


> *Brazil mudslides delay Gripen fighter decision​*



Was confused how the came to the coclusion about a decision towards Gripen, because the article itself doesn't say anything like that, but then I saw that it's a Swedish website.


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## angeldemon_007

> EF - Fifth, German Luftwaffe T2 entered the trials, without AESA radar, without IRST, without full EWS, or A2G capabilities. Weapon trials was done in the UK, by british EFs and it's likely that they showed the the CEASAR AESA radar tech demonstrator as well. But till the partner countries get to a final decision about fundings and capabilities of the T3 upgrade, all the proposed techs and weapons are only theoretical.


I am sure Typhoon will win but the conditions stated above is alarming...According to me rafale should win, if the above development is true.


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## vikraant AC

Mani2020 said:


> *The French Fighter Jet That Nobody Wants
> *The Rafale has cost $53 billion and is the key to France's defense economy, but it's not selling abroad
> 
> *By Carol Matlack*
> The Rafale fighter, made by France's Dassault Aviation, is loaded with high-tech avionics, radar, and targeting systems. Now all it needs are customers. France has been peddling the supersonic jet since 2000 and hasn't sold a single one. In the latest setback, Brazil said on Jan. 17 that it would reopen bidding for a fighter contract worth up to $7 billiona deal France had thought it was close to sealing last year. Neither Dassault nor the French Defense Ministry would comment on Brazil's decision.
> 
> The Rafale's plight signals the end of an era for France. With their Mirage fighter program, developed in the 1950s, the French were able to bolster their national defense, promote new technologies, and provide well-paying jobswhile recouping much of the cost by exporting hundreds of jets worldwide. Hoping to duplicate that model, the French government has spent some $53 billion on the Rafale, more than the country's $40 billion annual defense budget. But deal after deal has fallen through, with prospective buyers South Korea, Singapore, and Morocco choosing Boeing's (BA) F-15 and Lockheed Martin's (LMT) F-16 over the Rafale.
> 
> Midsize suppliers such as France are being outgunned by bigger competitors. The F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, for example, is being developed by a U.S.-led consortium of nine countries that plan to buy more than 2,500 of the planes. That will ensure plenty of revenue from production and upgrades. Britain, Germany, Italy, and Spain have similarly joined forces to produce the new Eurofighter jet. "Nationally driven, nationally financed and controlled production of the most advanced weapons systems is now the exclusive purview of the U.S. and Russia, and in the future, China as well," says Mark Bromley, a senior researcher at the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute, a Swedish think tank.
> 
> Changing global politics has worked against France, too. During the Cold War, France successfully marketed the Mirage as an alternative to U.S. and Soviet planes. Other customers, such as the United Arab Emirates, bought French planes after the U.S. balked at providing high-tech weaponry. Now, though, the U.S. is eagerly seeking sales in the Gulf states. Many foreign governments, in turn, see arms deals as a way to forge closer defense ties with the U.S., says Loïc Tribot La Spière, an analyst at the Center for Studies and Prospective Strategy, a Paris think tank. "The sentiment is, 'We buy American because it assures security,' " he says.
> 
> The 93 Rafales produced by Dassault so far have gone to the French armed forces. To sustain production, the government has agreed to spend $1.1 billion on more Rafales over three years, even as it tries to pare budget deficits.
> 
> Finding customers will only get harder. As the Joint Strike Fighter enters service, U.S. manufacturers are set to increase their share of the $16 billion-a-year fighter aircraft market over the next decade from nearly 58 percent to more than 67 percent, according to forecasts by the Virginia-based Teal Group aerospace consultancy. Eurofighter and Russian manufacturers will get most of the rest, Teal predicts.
> 
> The longer the Rafale order book stays empty, the harder it will be to sell the plane, Teal analyst Richard Aboulafia says. "Customers like to see a home government that is determined to keep spending on buying and upgrading the aircraft" with the latest technology. Instead, he says, the Rafale is on budgetary life support. "That's the last thing you want customers to see."
> 
> The bottom line: France's decision to go it alone on its fighter program has cost the country $53 billion, with no export sales to offset the price.
> 
> Matlack is a Paris correspondent for Bloomberg Businessweek.
> 
> Source:The French Fighter Jet That Nobody Wants - BusinessWeek



so this simply means india should ask france for co-devloping the french fighter if it wants to induct it


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## vikraant AC

i also think rafale should win this mmrca


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## MST

rockstar said:


> IF EF AESA will not be ready before 2015 and its in technical evaluation stage, what is the use to go after them?
> 
> Can anybody tell, apart from F-18, which competitor will get AESA integrated and supply ASAP to India?



Only the teens and Rafale have operational AESA. The teens have lot more mature AESA compared to Rafale.

Eurofigher is expected to get AESA by 2015 while SAAB signed the deal for the development for raven AESA in 2009 only so they will be the last to get the AESA. I don't know about Mig 35


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## MST

The problem now with Rafale (with Brazililian Competition being opened up again as well as delayed) is that who will pay for the future upgrades of the aircraft. 
The French are themselves trying to cut cost by focusing on export of the plane but without any success. So will India have to support these upgrades? This is a big question mark right now. Inspite of being a good plane these factors can hurt Rafale's chances in the competition.

Regarding co-development is concerned the French have spent over $50 Billion on the R&D of the plane. I don't think they are going to just give us the co - development rights for $10 Billion deal. Also India just comitted $30 billion for FGFA. So I don't think MOD will have an appetite for another co-development. esp for a plane which is very expensive and we cannot inducted in very large numbers.

With Gripen NG coming around 2017 and if what Sancho has said about Euro Fighter is still valid then I guess the Super Bug becomes the front runner esp. if the Yanks play their cards right ( e.g in terms of offset and giving the EPE version of the engine) . 
And I don't see why they won't.


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## sancho

MST said:


> The problem now with Rafale (with Brazililian Competition being opened up again as well as delayed) is that who will pay for the future upgrades of the aircraft.
> The French are themselves trying to cut cost by focusing on export of the plane but without any success. So will India have to support these upgrades? This is a big question mark right now. Inspite of being a good plane these factors can hurt Rafale's chances in the competition.



The upgrades will be paid mainly by French gov, because they are the main customer so far, but more interesting for us would be to customise our Rafale version, because that could reduce the cost as well. Integrating Kaveri - Snecma engine for example, instead of M88, makes us not dependent of French upgrades of their engines. We could upgrade the Kaveri to our needs and at lower costs as well. 

Another point to reduce costs are integrating Indian weapons, like our LGB instead of US paveways, Astra instead of MICA EM for the medium range and a cost-effective addition to METEOR.




MST said:


> Regarding co-development is concerned the French have spent over $50 Billion on the R&D of the plane. I don't think they are going to just give us the co - development rights for $10 Billion deal. Also India just comitted $30 billion for FGFA. So I don't think MOD will have an appetite for another co-development. esp for a plane which is very expensive and we cannot inducted in very large numbers.




I think you misunderstood something here, we were talking about the AESA radar co-development for LCA Tejas MK2. MoD is searching for a co-development partner and Thales with the RBE 2 radar was one alternative, although the last unofficial report said only ELTA and EADS are left in the race.




MST said:


> With Gripen NG coming around 2017 and if what Sancho has said about Euro Fighter is still valid then I guess the Super Bug becomes the front runner esp. if the Yanks play their cards right ( e.g in terms of offset and giving the EPE version of the engine). And I don't see why they won't.



The problem with US fighters are not the offsets, especially not with Boeing, but the high restrictions and limited useful ToT that they offer. Besides that the F18SH seems not to offer the flight performance IAF seems to require.


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## the rafter

*Dogfight! India&#8217;s Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft Decision*
Ashley J. Tellis
CARNEGIE REPORT, JANUARY 2011





The Indian air force (IAF) is entering the final stages of selecting a new medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA). At a cost of about $10 billion for 126 aircraft, the MMRCA competition is the largest Indian fighter tender in years. Eight countries and six companies eagerly await the outcome of the selection process, which has garnered high-profile attention for its sheer size, its international political implications, and its impact on the viability of key aircraft manufacturers. Furthermore, the winner will obtain a long and lucrative association with a rising power and secure a toehold into other parts of India&#8217;s rapidly modernizing strategic industries. Once selected, the aircraft will play an essential role in India&#8217;s military modernization as the country transitions from a regional power to a global giant. 

The MMRCA competition comes as challenges to India&#8217;s national security are increasing in intensity and complexity. Ever since the 1971 war, India&#8217;s defense strategy has relied on maintaining superior airpower relative to both China and Pakistan. In the event of a regional conflict, Indian air power would serve as the country&#8217;s critical war-fighting instrument of first resort. Due to delays in its defense procurement process as well as accidents and retirements of older fighter aircraft, however, India&#8217;s force levels have reached an all-time low of 29 squadrons, and the IAF is not expected to reach the currently authorized force levels of 39.5 squadrons before 2017. This growing and dangerous hole in the IAF&#8217;s capabilities comes as India&#8217;s neighbors are aggressively modernizing their own air forces, making India&#8217;s need to expand its combat aircraft inventories all the more urgent. 

In choosing an aircraft, the government of India must employ a speedy decision process that is focused on the right metrics, taking both technical and political considerations into account. The IAF has already evaluated the six MMRCA competitors against 660 technical benchmarks and has provided its recommendations to the Ministry of Defense. While the IAF has paid special attention to the fighters&#8217; sensors and avionics, weapons, aerodynamic effectiveness, and mission performance, India&#8217;s civilian security managers are certain to emphasize technology transfer as well as costs when making their decision. In fact, the winning aircraft for the IAF ought to be chosen on the triangular criteria of technical merit, relative cost, and optimal fit within the IAF&#8217;s evolving force architecture. 

Political considerations, however, will be key in the selection process. In choosing the winning platform, Indian policy makers will seek to: minimize the country&#8217;s vulnerability to supply cutoffs in wartime, improve its larger military capacity through a substantial technology infusion, and forge new transformative geopolitical partnerships that promise to accelerate the growth of Indian power globally. While Indian leaders may be tempted to split the purchase among vendors to please more than one country, doing so would needlessly saddle the IAF with multiple airframes in return for meager political gains.

Given the technical and political considerations, New Delhi should conclude the MMRCA competition expeditiously, avoid splitting the purchase between competitors, and buy the &#8220;best&#8221; aircraft to help India to effectively prepare for possible conflict in Southern Asia. Because of the dramatic transformations in combat aviation technology currently underway, the Indian government should select the least expensive, mature, combat-proven fourth-generation fighter for the IAF as a bridge toward procuring more advanced stealth aircraft in the future.

*Under this criterion, the European aircraft are technically superb, but the U.S. entrants prove to be formidable &#8220;best buys.&#8221;* If Washington wants an American aircraft to win the game, however, it will need to offer generous terms on the transfer of technology, assure India access to fifth-generation U.S. combat aircraft, and provide strong support for India&#8217;s strategic ambitions&#8212;to counter the perception that the older U.S. designs in the MMRCA race are less combat effective.

In making its decision, India&#8217;s government must keep the IAF&#8217;s interests consistently front and center to ensure that its ultimate choice of aircraft is the best one for the service. This will not only help India to strengthen its combat capabilities in the coming years but position it as a rising global power worthy of respect far into the future.
Dogfight! India?s Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft Decision - Carnegie Endowment for International Peace

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## the rafter

*U.S. May Allow India to Join JSF Effort*






> PENTAGON ACQUISITIONS CHIEF Ashton Carter said there is "no principle" that would prohibit India from participating in the JSF program. (Senior Aiman Julianne Showalter / U.S. Air Force)



The United States is open to Indian participation in the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) program, and eventual purchase of its fifth generation F-35 Lightning II stealth fighter, Pentagon acquisitions Chief Ashton Carter said Jan. 26.

"There is nothing on our side, no principle which bars that on our side, Indian participation in the Joint Strike Fighter. Right now, they're focused on these aircraft which are top-of-the-line fourth-gen fighters," Carter said.

However, the decision to pursue the F-35 is India's alone.

In a follow-up email, Pentagon spokeswoman Cheryl Irwin said, "If, at some point down the road, India were interested in purchasing JSF from us, then we would engage the Indians in an open, transparent manner at that time. But this would obviously be something that the Indian government would have to decide it wanted or needed."

Carter was speaking at the release of a report by the Carnegie Endowment's Ashley Tellis on India's Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) program. The Indian contract calls for the purchase of 126 fighters and is valued at more than $10 billion, Carter said. Competitors include the Lockheed Martin F-16IN Super Viper, Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Eurofighter Typhoon, Dassault Rafale, Saab JAS-39 Gripen and the Mikoyan MiG-35.

Carter touted the American-built F-16 and F/A-18 as being the most technologically advanced aircraft in the competition.

"I think that, without saying anything disparaging about the other entrants, both F/A-18 and the F-16 offers include the best technology," he said.

Tellis echoed Carter's comments, saying the two U.S. competitors offered the best capability for the lowest price. Of particular interest to India are the American fighters' Active Electronically Scanned Array radars (AESA), he said. The European and Russian aircraft do not currently have operational AESA radars available. The U.S. military, meanwhile, is currently operating its second generation of AESA radars.

The most important factors in any Indian decision will likely be technology transfer and industrial participation, Carter said. Carter also stressed the importance of lifecycle costs because 70 percent of a weapon's total cost resides in not in the initial purchase price, but rather in sustainment. According to Tellis, both the F-16 and F/A-18 offer the lowest lifecycle costs out of the aircraft on offer.

Carter also stressed the importance of transparency.

"I'm committed to in our process, both with respect to India and in our own internal processes, an open and transparent process, and I think we can promise the Indian government that," he said.
U.S. May Allow India to Join JSF Effort - Defense News


----------



## MST

sancho said:


> The upgrades will be paid mainly by French gov, because they are the main customer so far, but more interesting for us would be to customise our Rafale version, because that could reduce the cost as well. Integrating Kaveri - Snecma engine for example, instead of M88, makes us not dependent of French upgrades of their engines. We could upgrade the Kaveri to our needs and at lower costs as well.


The main issue here is time. Integrating an engine which is not even compelted (Snecma-Kaveri) will add many years. Look at time line for Tejas MK2 that too for engine thats very mature.
Snecma-Kaveri Engine can be good option for upgrade. 

Also I agree the French Govt will pay for upgrades but they may charge us heavily for it since at this point we seem to be the only customer. In the end it will depend on what Dassault offers but these things will be running in minds of MOD babus. Brazil tender would have had a very positive fall out on Rafale in MMRCA. 



> Another point to reduce costs are integrating Indian weapons, like our LGB instead of US paveways, Astra instead of MICA EM for the medium range and a cost-effective addition to METEOR.


That will be great but has Dassault committed to it.



> I think you misunderstood something here, we were talking about the AESA radar co-development for LCA Tejas MK2. MoD is searching for a co-development partner and Thales with the RBE 2 radar was one alternative, although the last unofficial report said only ELTA and EADS are left in the race.


No I was only replying to some other comments regarding co development of fighter. 
AESA co development if it happens will be a good thing.




> The problem with US fighters are not the offsets, especially not with Boeing, but the high restrictions and limited useful ToT that they offer. Besides that the F18SH seems not to offer the flight performance IAF seems to require.



Agreed but the Yanks may bite the bullet looking at the CARNEGIE report. They may also add the EPE as part of the deal. 
Ideally i too want a european plane but MOD/Finance people may just push for the super bug if it fulfills all the offset/TOT requirements considering short comings of european fighters.


----------



## the rafter

*Eurofighter Typhoon Achieves 100,000 Flying Hours*




January 26, 2011 - Typhoon, the leading edge swing-role combat aircraft continues to protect the UK airspace around the clock. Across the world the six Air Forces who operate Typhoon have passed the significant milestone of 100,000 flying hours. 

The 100,000th hour was achieved in collaboration with the Nations&#8217; Air Forces in the UK, Italy, Germany, Spain, Austria and the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia with a combined fleet of over 260 in-service Typhoons &#8211; the largest number among the new generation fighters available in the world today. 

In the UK, the Royal Air Force working with BAE Systems&#8217; support, ensure Typhoon is available for full operational duty, protecting and defending the national air space 24 hours a day, seven days a week. The role of the aircraft includes air and air interception.

The UK&#8217;s contribution to the 100,000 flying hours was achieved through the combined efforts of the Royal Air Force at RAF Coningsby in Lincolnshire, RAF Leuchars in Scotland, and Mount Pleasant in the Falkland Islands and also, in a range of operational deployments that tested the readiness, durability and reliability of Typhoon. 

Chris Boardman, BAE Systems&#8217; Managing Director responsible for Typhoon said: &#8220;This is a significant achievement for Typhoon and the partner Nations&#8217; Air Forces. Such a milestone demonstrates the extensive operational capability of the aircraft both within the UK and in differing environments overseas. It also increasingly highlights the importance of Typhoon for NATO (North Atlantic Treaty Organization) air responsibilities.&#8221; 

Typhoon is Europe&#8217;s largest military collaborative programme which delivers unrivalled combat capability coupled with improved situation awareness, high survivability and the most advanced array of integrated sensors makes Typhoon a total solution for the modern Air Force.

The Eurofighter Typhoon is a twin-engine, canard-delta wing, multirole combat aircraft, designed and built by a consortium of three companies: Alenia Aeronautica, BAE Systems, and EADS; working through a holding company, Eurofighter GmbH, which was formed in 1986. The project is managed by the NATO Eurofighter and Tornado Management Agency, which acts as the prime customer.

The series production of the Eurofighter Typhoon is underway, and the aircraft is being procured under three separate contracts (named "tranches"), each for aircraft with generally improved capabilities. The aircraft has entered service with the British Royal Air Force, the German Luftwaffe, the Italian Air Force, the Spanish Air Force and the Austrian Air Force. Saudi Arabia has signed a contract worth £4.43 billion (approx. &#8364;6.4 billion, $9.5 billion) for 72 aircraft.

The Eurofighter Typhoon is unique in modern combat aircraft in that there are four separate assembly lines. Each partner company assembles its own national aircraft, but builds the same parts for all 683 aircraft (including exports). A fifth assembly line will be established for the final 48 Saudi aircraft. Alenia Aeronautica &#8211; Left wing, outboard flaperons, rear fuselage sections, BAE Systems &#8211; Front fuselage (including foreplanes), canopy, dorsal spine, tail fin, inboard flaperons, rear fuselage section, EADS Deutschland &#8211; Main centre fuselage and EADS CASA &#8211; Right wing, leading edge slats.
Production is divided into three tranches (see table below). Tranches are a production/funding distinction, and do not necessarily imply an incremental increase in capability with each tranche. Tranche 3 will most likely be based on late Tranche 2 aircraft with improvements added. Tranche 3 has been split into A and B parts.

Tranches are further divided up into production standard/capability 'blocks' and funding/procurement 'batches', though these do not coincide, and are not the same thing e.g. the Eurofighter designated 'FGR4' by the RAF is a Tranche 1, Block 5. Batch 1 covered Block 1, but Batch 2 covered Blocks 2, 2B and 5.
Eurofighter Typhoon Achieves 100,000 Flying Hours


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## luckyyy

> Another point to reduce costs are integrating Indian weapons, like our LGB instead of US paveways, Astra instead of MICA EM for the medium range and a cost-effective addition to METEOR.



that's the point , what acttually IAF buying in MMRCA , just the airframe , radar and engine......even for radar DRDO looking for JV partner...


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## rockstarIN

Damn it is becoming so complex, F-16, F-18 is operational but strings attached, EF as well as Gripen will take long time to evolve-could not wait till and the Rafale is too expensive. what to buy?


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## kish

MST said:


> Only the teens and* Rafale have operational AESA.* The teens have lot more mature AESA compared to Rafale.
> 
> Eurofigher is expected to get AESA by 2015 while SAAB signed the deal for the development for raven AESA in 2009 only so they will be the last to get the AESA. I don't know about Mig 35



Rafale have operational AESA?
pls provide some source coz i knew its not operational yet, though its ahead of EF and Grippen 

@sancho can u confirm it with source to me 
thanks in advance


----------



## angeldemon_007

> No I was only replying to some other comments regarding co development of fighter.
> AESA co development if it happens will be a good thing.


But there is no co-development of fighters.



> Snecma-Kaveri Engine can be good option for upgrade.


Upgrade ??/Is our engine better than the current Rafale engine ??/



> Eurofigher is expected to get AESA by 2015 while SAAB signed the deal for the development for raven AESA in 2009 only so they will be the last to get the AESA.


That Gripen deal was signed after the aesa was made.



> The problem with US fighters are not the offsets, especially not with Boeing, but the high restrictions and limited useful ToT that they offer.


Actually, its a big problem...They are making fun of all the policies. It won't be too far when all other companies will start the same strategy and then our deffense minister will run here and there to develop new DPP, although it will take 4-5 years for our dumb ministers to understand what is wrong ?/


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## MST

kish said:


> Rafale have operational AESA?
> *pls provide some source coz i knew its not operational yet, though its ahead of EF and Grippen *
> 
> @sancho can u confirm it with source to me
> thanks in advance


Here You go

*Aviation Week*


> Low-rate production of the first active electronically scanned radars is now underway for the Rafale multi-role fighter.
> 
> Thales, developer of the RBE2 radar, says it's completed development work and now is starting series production. The radar should deliver around 40 percent greater range performance than the current standard, and be able to track many more targets simultaneously.
> 
> *Final software validation and delivery of the first AESA system to Dassault is planned for early 2010*. Low-rate production will involve only a handful of radars.


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## MST

angeldemon_007 said:


> But there is no co-development of fighters.


I was only responding to POST #3902. I had also seen a few older post asking for fighter co-development with Rafale so just put my thoughts on it.



> Upgrade ??/Is our engine better than the current Rafale engine ??/


Will leave this for Sancho. But if its our engine with similar thrust it will be cheaper reducing the cost of aircraft.



> That Gripen deal was signed after the aesa was made.


Pls share the source. Raven is based on an existing radar Vixen 1000ES AESA radar but its not a off the shelf radar. It needs development. See the text from . I don't have a source about when this radar will be operational.

*Source*


> The ES-05 Raven FCR is derived from the Vixen 1000ES AESA radar manufactured by Selex Galileo, designed for the Saab JAS 39 Gripen NG multirole fighter aircraft. The new Gripen radar will be based on the Selex Galileo Vixen 1000ES AESA, with Saab Microwave Systems providing the hardware 'back end'. *The Gripen team opted not to integrate an off-the-shelf AESA from an outside supplier *so as to retain control over critical radar software - full ownership of radar software and algorithms gives Saab the final authority for export release and technology transfer, with no restrictions, a critical requirement considering the intended markets for Gripen NG.



oops system is deleting J@nes name from the source.
What happened? Can't we give J@nes as a source?


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## Bang Galore

the rafter said:


> *Dogfight! Indias Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft Decision*
> Ashley J. Tellis
> CARNEGIE REPORT, JANUARY 2011




*Link:*

http://carnegieendowment.org/files/dogfight.pdf

*A very long but satisfying & an absolutely must read!*

Reactions: Like Like:
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## SR 71 Blackbird

MST said:


> Only the teens and Rafale have operational AESA. The teens have lot more mature AESA compared to Rafale.
> 
> Eurofigher is expected to get AESA by 2015 while SAAB signed the deal for the development for raven AESA in 2009 only so they will be the last to get the AESA. I don't know about Mig 35



Mig 35 has ZhuK AE AESA radar.


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## sancho

MST said:


> The main issue here is time. Integrating an engine which is not even compelted (Snecma-Kaveri) will add many years. Look at time line for Tejas MK2 that too for engine thats very mature.
> Snecma-Kaveri Engine can be good option for upgrade.



That's not correct, because MK2 needs so much time for the re-design of the airframe (to house the new engine, new air intakes and new wings) and integrating new techs (AESA, IRST). The integration of the engine alone can be done way faster, what the integration of the US engines in the LCA prototypes shows.
In regard to Rafale, it depends on the airframe changes that would be needed, I don't see the airframe to be changed because the diameter is not that different, only the air intankes might be bigger as well, but that's it.



MST said:


> Also I agree the French Govt will pay for upgrades but they may charge us heavily for it since at this point we seem to be the only customer. In the end it will depend on what Dassault offers but these things will be running in minds of MOD babus. Brazil tender would have had a very positive fall out on Rafale in MMRCA.



No doubt about that, the cost in generall will be the higher, just topped by the cost for the EF possibly, but people tend to look at the unit cost only and don't see that there are several points for the Rafale to reduce costs on the other side as well. 
Personally I would have liked to see Rafale winning the Brazilian tender not because of the costs, but because of some techs and weapons they are likely to integrate and that would have made Rafale even better.
Capabilities are easier to compare than costs, because the later includes more variables. For example, the argument against the M2K upgrade was the comparison to Mig 29 costs, but the key question is what costs are included?

It's often stated that the Mig upgrade includes new engines and the Mirage deal not, which is true, but was their cost part of the around $900 million deal in 2009? 



> A deal to upgrade IAF MiG-29s with the RD-33 Series 3 engines was *finalized on January 24, 2007* between the engine manufacturer Klimov and HAL.
> 
> Under the *$250 million contract* singed by Russian Defense Minister Ivanov, Klimov was to establish a production line at HAL for 120 RD-33 Series 3 engines. The deal involved complete transfer of technology.


HAL, Klimov deal for RD-33 Series 3 production, TOT makes progress

Also what about the French and Israeli avionics that will be integrated in the upgrade as well are their costs included?
On the other side the Mirage upgrade included new weapons, because they wasn't BVR capable before, but weapon cost were not included to the Mig deal. These M2K weapons costs around $700 million, which reduced the costs of the upgrade itself to $1.5 billions.

So when we compare upgrade costs for the fighters only we have:

- *$1.5 billions* for 51 Mirage 2000 
- $964 millions + $250 millions + X for avionics = *$1.214 billions + X* for 60 Mig 29s

Also one should ask why the Migs needs to be reengined and the M2Ks not, although they were inducted pretty much at the same time? Which tells us something about the quality of western techs and why they cost more as well.




MST said:


> That will be great but has Dassault committed to it.



AFAIK yes, they stated it in Brazil for their weapons just like they seems to be ready to integrate SLAMER for UAE.


Agreed but the Yanks may bite the bullet looking at the CARNEGIE report. They may also add the EPE as part of the deal. 
Ideally i too want a european plane but MOD/Finance people may just push for the super bug if it fulfills all the offset/TOT requirements considering short comings of european fighters.[/QUOTE]

According the latest reports they have to, because the F18SH don't fulfill IAF requirements otherwise, but that also means additional costs for the F18SH per unit, because the EPE is not developed yet and we would be nuts to pay for the upgrade of an foreign engine, instead of our own.
The SH is a good fighter mainly for strikes, but the main argument for it are political. It falls short in flight performance, ToT, independance and customisations and that's what we pay extra at European fighters. Imo, clearly the better deal!


----------



## sancho

luckyyy said:


> that's the point , what acttually IAF buying in MMRCA , just the airframe , radar and engine......*even for radar DRDO looking for JV partner*...



Not for MMRCAs, only for Tejas and they will add Indian weapons only to European, not replace them like they do with Russian missiles.




angeldemon_007 said:


> Upgrade ??/Is our engine better than the current Rafale engine ?



Our engine is Kaveri, which according recent reports offers 70 to 75kN thrust.
Current Rafale engine is the French M88-2, which offers 75kN thrust.
The Kaveri - Snecma co-developed engine is said to have the latest M88 core and generate 90 to 95kN thrust.

What MST meant was, we could add Kaveri - Snecma with the MLU later, which seems to be the same aim that IAF has with the foreign LCA engines. But as I explained in my last post, Kaveri - Snecma engine could be integrated even earlier to Rafale, possibly through the license production, which would be a big advantage imo!


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## dbc

Bang Galore said:


> *Link:*
> 
> http://carnegieendowment.org/files/dogfight.pdf
> 
> *A very long but satisfying & an absolutely must read!*



Nice find Bang Galore, the Carnegie report is an interesting read, I was particularly surprised by the price of the Gripen.


----------



## MST

If the costs given in the report are correct (and I personally think they are) then it gives lot of advantages to the Teens. Considering that Mig 35 will not be preferred the Teens will be the L1 bidders. 
Gripen at $82 + million is just too expensive. Alos considering the cost is from the Norwegian competition in 2008 the variant for India maybe even more expensive.


----------



## luckyyy

sancho said:


> Not for MMRCAs, only for Tejas and they will add Indian weapons only to European, not replace them like they do with Russian missiles.



JV products will be put where ever they could be put , not restricted to LCA only...


----------



## sancho

MST said:


> If the costs given in the report are correct (and I personally think they are) then it gives lot of advantages to the Teens. Considering that Mig 35 will not be preferred the Teens will be the L1 bidders.
> Gripen at $82 + million is just too expensive. Alos considering the cost is from the Norwegian competition in 2008 the variant for India maybe even more expensive.



The cost for Gripen is not correct, because that was not flyaway cost but most likely the system cost. From competitions like in Denmark, the Netherlands, it is known that the Gripen NG was offered for a flyaway cost of $45 millions, from Brazil it was reported around $50 millions.
The article also took the system cost we paid for Mig 29Ks and translated it to the cost of the Mig 35, although AESA radar, TVC and additional changes on the airframe will increase the costs obviously, so not every figure they took is correct. More important is that even they say, that the L1 is not the one with the lowest unit costs, but the cheapest that fulfills the requirements and included costs for ToT as well. 

The first half of the analysis is very interesting, when it's about the requirements of IAF and the roles that MMRCAs are likely to do, especially in regard to China. But when they start talking about the capabilities of each fighter it gets strange, with the conclusion clearly in favour for the US fighters. 

From the Facebook site of the author:



> Tellis serves as Senior Associate at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace in Washington, DC. He was earlier commissioned into the Foreign Service and *served as senior adviser to the ambassador at the U.S. Embassy in New Delhi*. He also served on the National Security Council staff as special assistant to the President and senior director for Strategic Planning and Southwest Asia.



That should explain it I guess. 


Also when you read the report it looks like the specs they took for the fighters are at least 2, or 3 years old, while the last part even includes a note to the article of Air Commodore (retired) Jasjit Singh, that came up at the end of last year, which makes it kind of confusing. It's good to read if you are interested in the MMRCA competition, but is not in all points a reliable source.




luckyyy said:


> JV products will be put where ever they could be put , not restricted to LCA only...



Not really! Without approval you can't change a bolt of any of the MMRCA contender, especially not critical parts of the fighter, or do you expect anybody will allow to integrate Kaveri - Snecma engine in their fighters apart from Dassault?


----------



## Capt.Popeye

sancho said:


> The cost for Gripen is not correct, because that was not flyaway cost but most likely the system cost. From competitions like in Denmark, the Netherlands, it is known that the Gripen NG was offered for a flyaway cost of $45 millions, from Brazil it was reported around $50 millions.
> The article also took the system cost we paid for Mig 29Ks and translated it to the cost of the Mig 35, although AESA radar, TVC and additional changes on the airframe will increase the costs obviously, so not every figure they took is correct. More important is that even they say, that the L1 is not the one with the lowest unit costs, but the cheapest that fulfills the requirements and included costs for ToT as well.
> 
> The first half of the analysis is very interesting, when it's about the requirements of IAF and the roles that MMRCAs are likely to do, especially in regard to China. But when they start talking about the capabilities of each fighter it gets strange, with the conclusion clearly in favour for the US fighters.
> 
> From the Facebook site of the author:
> 
> 
> 
> That should explain it I guess.
> 
> 
> Also when you read the report it looks like the specs they took for the fighters are at least 2, or 3 years old, while the last part even includes a note to the article of Air Commodore (retired) Jasjit Singh, that came up at the end of last year, which makes it kind of confusing. It's good to read if you are interested in the MMRCA competition, but is not in all points a reliable source.



Ashley Tellis is not the last word on the subject, least of all on the technical parameters of the aircraft. 
That said, he is an specialist on strategic studies, with special emphasis on nuclear strategy. Have heard him speak in the USA on how India must be made to sign on the NPT dotted line. That was 2 decades ago.


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## sancho

Capt.Popeye said:


> Ashley Tellis is not the last word on the subject, least of all on the technical parameters of the aircraft.
> That said, *he is an specialist on strategic studies*, with special emphasis on nuclear strategy.


Maybe that's why the first half sounds way more to be written by a man like him, while the last part could be done from someone else, who knows. Do you know if he published something like this earlier?


----------



## luckyyy

sancho said:


> Not really! Without approval you can't change a bolt of any of the MMRCA contender, especially not critical parts of the fighter, or do you expect anybody will allow to integrate Kaveri - Snecma engine in their fighters apart from Dassault?



why not , Kaveri - Snecma engine can be put on GripenNG.......

not everyone coz the specification /dimentions would not be same to put it on their fighter....


----------



## rockstarIN

Bang Galore said:


> *Link:*
> 
> http://carnegieendowment.org/files/dogfight.pdf
> 
> *A very long but satisfying & an absolutely must read!*



Good details, but i really doubt the prices of Gripen and F-16s.


----------



## angeldemon_007

F16 is cheap...but F18 was cheaper in the deal offered to Aus. and Brazil.
Are these prices for India or just normal cost because since India is purchasing 126, the prices would be less.
Also the prices of european fighters were reduced...but it is not shown in this assessment.


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## kali

Between Refale & Eurofighter which is better in term of technology transfer to india?


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## SpArK

kali said:


> Between Refale & Eurofighter which is better in term of technology transfer to india?


----------



## rajan_united

EF 2000 is better than Rafale.
As u know their earlier jets, b/w Tornado and Mirrage2000 Mirrage was very sucessfull (600+made). France opted out of EF program as it tought he could make same thing with next gen planes. They did great but still EF have all the things Rafale has + few extra(like communication buses)


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## kali

between Refale & Eurofighter which is best in term of price & life cycle cost?


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## SpArK

kali said:


> between Refale & Eurofighter which is best in term of price & life cycle cost?






[/IMG]


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## Capt.Popeye

SpArK said:


> [/IMG]



Benny, you gotta be on the Dassault payroll.


----------



## rockstarIN

kali said:


> between Refale & Eurofighter which is best in term of price & life cycle cost?



Rafale problems:-

High cost

Less thrust


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## SpArK

rockstar said:


> Rafale problems:-
> 
> High cost
> 
> Less thrust



But isnt the thrust better than F-16In , F-18 and Mig-35??? and its not that less either. And it can supercruise too.. Also the most cost effective life cycle cost and efficient engine..


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## rockstarIN

^^ by the published chart here, it has go the lowest TWR. No super cruise too

Not even 1, which is IAF is looking for


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## SpArK

rockstar said:


> ^^ by the published chart here, it has go the lowest TWR. No super cruise too
> 
> Not even 1, which is IAF is looking for



Thats a months old chart that appeared in a blog.. Its factually incorrect.
Its been discussed earlier by sancho and co. I will try getting some information about it.. coz i am not that "kidu" on that..


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## rockstarIN

SpArK said:


> *Thats a months old chart *that appeared in a blog.. Its factually incorrect.
> Its been discussed earlier by sancho and co. I will try getting some information about it.. coz i am not that "kidu" on that..



Did they change the engines within a month?

Anyway i do not believe the prices on the chart, but TWR is correct, i feel...


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## SpArK

Rafale, Dassault-Breguet

http://www.dassault-aviation.com/fileadmin/user_upload/redacteur/AUTRES_DOCS/Fox_three/Fox_Three_nr_8.pdf


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## SpArK

rockstar said:


> Did they change the engines within a month?
> 
> Anyway i do not believe the prices on the chart, but TWR is correct, i feel...



Nope the chart is infact factually wrong.. eve i can make one with errors...

Go through the links or wait for sancho ( my right man for these jobs ) to get the clarification.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## SpArK

Capt.Popeye said:


> Benny, you gotta be on the Dassault payroll.



Yaa.. gave me an offer which i could t refuse..


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## rockstarIN

SpArK said:


> Nope the chart is infact factually wrong.. eve i can make one with errors...
> 
> Go through the links or wait for sancho ( my right man for these jobs ) to get the clarification.



Okie, till then,


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## SpArK

rockstar said:


> Okie, till then,



And that chart is nt part of the Carnegie report.. check in the pdf file.. it appeared months back in some blog.. i think u got confused with that.


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## kali

All six aircraft which is latest avionics? In which aircraft they give us full TOT of radar & EW warfare?


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## kali

If we choose the eurofighter, can they provide the engine technology?


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## SpArK

kali said:


> All six aircraft which is latest avionics? In which aircraft they give us full TOT of radar & EW warfare?



*Latest / best avionics*






-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Full* TOT on radar and EW warfare..


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## SpArK

kali said:


> If we choose the eurofighter, can they provide the engine technology?



Even the engine which has won the LCA competition is not giving us any technology.. so i hardly doubt at the level of ToT on most deals...


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## kali

SpArK said:


> *Latest / best avionics*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *Full* TOT on radar and EW warfare..



Is it Gripen?


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## SpArK

kali said:


> Is it Gripen?



Its EF.. gripen is a single engine fighter.


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## kali

So Eurofighter is the best fighter for mmrca?


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## angeldemon_007

I also think Eurofighter is the best but it is still under development but this problem is faced by most of them.
Good thing with rafale is, we could negotiate on any level of tot but the problem is, i think its way too expensive. Its upgrades will be expensive too. Just look at our Mirage case.
I also think, since our force is interested in expensive aircrafts ie. typhoon and rafale, then we could also talk to US about F35 for MMRCA.


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## KEETARP

kali said:


> So Eurofighter is the best fighter for mmrca?



Question to be asked -------
Are we there looking for best fighter in the market , or the jet that matches the minimal air staff req with L1 price .

In comparison between two diff jets , Rafale and Eurofighter can never be L1


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## GareebNawaz

^^ i dont know which one is the best, but the super hornet is the most advanced in terms of avionics and technology. I seriously believe the typhoon is overrated. It is yet to prove its capabilities. I dont doubt the ability of the EF, but it is not great. Su-30MKI is even better. I bet j-10 is somewhat better.


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## angeldemon_007

> I seriously believe the typhoon is overrated. It is yet to prove its capabilities.


Is typhoon used by RAF in AFg. or Irq. ??/


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## sancho

rockstar said:


> Did they change the engines within a month?
> 
> Anyway i do not believe the prices on the chart, but TWR is correct, i feel...



The chart is not only old, but like Spark said, filled with wrong infos!

Examples?

- Nearly all costs
- EF has a payload of 7t not only 5t like the chart says
- Rafale TWR 1.08, not 0.8, empty weight and payload 9.5t, G load 9+, SC at least according some Dassault Aviation sources
- F18SH has no GE414 EPE engine yet, that's why the AB thrust is wrong, payload is 8t, Mach 2 is also wrong
- F16 TWR, empty weight, payload, SC, 
- Gripen Vixen 500 radar, empty weight, payload, G load,


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## sancho

PRATEEK said:


> Question to be asked -------
> Are we there looking for best fighter in the market , or the jet that matches the minimal air staff req with L1 price .
> 
> In comparison between two diff jets , Rafale and Eurofighter can never be L1



That's the wrong question because there is no "best fighter", only the best suited fighter for the requirements of the forces, or the country and because that are always different, just like the capabilities of the fighters and the advantages in the deals, any competition is different!

So the question should be, which is the best suited fighter and which deal is the best suited deal for India?

Regarding L1:



> Indian acquisition procedures, in fact, stipulate that the cheapest compliant aircraft, identifi ed as &#8220;L1,&#8221; should be selected for the force. The least expensive aircraft in this context, however, will be that defined by the criteria laid out in the Request for Proposals *and does not refer simply to either an aircraft&#8217;s flyaway or acquisition costs.* While such a winnowing process would be easy if all the contenders were perfectly commensurate, each airplane in the MMRCA race embodies a different bundle of capabilities. Comparing the costs of the different rivals will, therefore, be a difficult process and, if handled inappropriately, it could produce dangerously suboptimal results.
> Given this fact, the Indian government will have to be sensitive *not simply to the sticker price of the shortlisted aircraft, but to their true marginal costs*&#8212;that is, to cost differences insofar as they relate to the true differentials in combat capability, assuming that all the other relevant variables, such as the technology transfer and off set packages, are equal. To the degree that they are not, these differences will also have to be factored into the
> assessment of marginal costs. *In other words, the final cost comparison of the various contending aircraft will be a far more complex matter than a simple price check.*



Source: Carnegie Endowment report




angeldemon_007 said:


> Is typhoon used by RAF in AFg. or Irq. ??/




No Typhoon was fielded in a war situation yet, the only realistic mission were interception missions against Russian surveillance aircrafts, mainly in Kosovo like this:













And from time to time also this:


----------



## sancho

kali said:


> Between Refale & Eurofighter which is better in term of technology transfer to india?





kali said:


> between Refale & Eurofighter which is best in term of price & life cycle cost?





kali said:


> All six aircraft which is latest avionics? In which aircraft they give us full TOT of radar & EW warfare?





kali said:


> If we choose the eurofighter, can they provide the engine technology?




First of all, please don't post all these 1 liners and simply ask in 1 normal post!

Regarding your questions, by the fact that nobody here has a clear inside view of the offers, the real specs, or performances of the fighters in the trials, it will be very difficult to answer them. That's why it should be clear that the following is only my personal opinion!

1. Difficult to say, the core techs of both fighters are developed alone, which means they can offer up to 100% ToT of them if they want, but which is unlikely. The advantage of Rafale here is, that India has only to negotiate about it with 1 country and their companies, while the EF was developed by a consortium of different companies from different countries. That means all countries have to agree on ToT according to their rules and laws, which makes it more difficult. 
This problem is obvious also in other decisions about EF, like the upgrads, because either one country pays alone for specific upgrades like UK did with integrating litening pod, or some A2G weapons, or all countries have to agree on core upgrades like the T3 including AESA radar.
Rafale on the other hand needs only permission and funding of French gov and can be upgraded easily and that's why it offer a higher tech, or maturity level at the moment.

2. Again difficult to say, because there are only a few infos available on this. The all French spares and techs makes them costlier, but even from EF customers like Germany, or Austria there are always reports about very high maintenance and per hour cost.
They should be higher then the US fighters, as well as Gripen mainly because of one engine, but lower then Mig 35s.

3. The best radar imo will be the Captor - E, but it is also the radar that needs the most time for development and as it seems will not be ready in time.
Rafales SPECTRA EWS on the other hand is really high class, not only in defensive, but also in offensive roles. The only EWS that has shown passive launch of missile capabilities yet!

The question is how much ToT we would get of these techs, Rafale is often offered with full ToT of the radar + source codes, but I would prefer SPECTRA ToT, to use it later on 5. gen fighters like FGFA.
The US fighters will offer obviously high techs in radar and EWS too, but will not offer critical ToT and often tend to downgrade export systems.

Another way to get radar ToT is the AESA radar co-development for Tejas MK2 and most MMRCA competitiors are participating here as well, with the MMRCA radars as the base.

4. Yes, that was even offered during the Tejas MK2 engine competition, but after that deal was given to another contender, it's doubtful that we will be interested in it now. Especially when we get ToT of the French M88 engine now as well.

Reactions: Like Like:
3


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## GORKHALI

*MIRAGE M2K STILL ON SALE*

MILITARY AVIATION AND SPACE TECHNOLOGY NEWS: France Offers To Sell Iraq Mirage Fighter Jets

*France has proposed to sell 18 Mirage fighters to Iraq, *which is already negotiating a deal for U.S. F-16s to protect its skies after American forces pull out at the end of this year, the French ambassador said.









France has proposed selling 18 Mirage fighter jets to Iraq. _Above, a Mirage 2000 jet fighter takes off from Nancy-Ochey, France. (File photo / Agence France-Presse)
_
"France has proposed to sell 18 Mirage F1 retrofitted aircraft that can be delivered from late 2011 and immediately operational because many Iraqi pilots were trained in the past on this type of plane," Boris Boillon told Agence France-Presse on Jan. 27.


He said France was offering the multi-role planes for $1 billion (733 million euros).

Baghdad has been negotiating to buy 18 U.S.-made F-16s, and the cabinet on Jan. 26 authorized Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki to negotiate the terms of the first payment on the contract, a statement said.

Boillon said that, because of the price tag, the Mirage offer would not affect the F-16 deal.

"This [Mirage] sale is in the context of a proposal on a comprehensive military air program that France has submitted to this country," Boillon said.

Iraq's government spokesman said that Baghdad welcomed any offer.

"Iraq needs to build up its Air Force and that needs tens of fighters to protect its sovereignty," Ali-al Dabbagh said.

"Any origin of high quality with good offer will be welcomed taking in consideration that we need to unify the source of arming if they fulfill Iraq's requirements," he said, without disclosing the cost of the F-16 deal.

The Iraqi government "has submitted a letter of request for 18 F-16s and packages composed of spare parts, support equipment, weapons, logistics support and training," said U.S. Army Capt. Dan Churchill, a U.S. military spokesman in Iraq.

"The delivery and cost of the aircraft will be dependent upon a finalized purchase, which has not yet happened."

In early September, U.S. Army Gen. Michael Barbero, then deputy commander of U.S. forces in Iraq, said the absence of a multi-role fighter limited Iraq's air capabilities.

"They will not have the capability to provide air sovereignty, to fully protect the skies over Iraq, because they will lack a multi-role fighter," he said.

Iraq's air force was destroyed during and after the 2003 U.S.-led invasion.


----------



## rockstarIN

sancho said:


> The chart is not only old, but like Spark said, filled with wrong infos!
> 
> Examples?
> 
> - Nearly all costs
> - EF has a payload of 7t not only 5t like the chart says
> - Rafale TWR 1.08, not 0.8, empty weight and payload 9.5t, G load 9+, SC at least according some Dassault Aviation sources
> - F18SH has no GE414 EPE engine yet, that's why the AB thrust is wrong, payload is 8t, Mach 2 is also wrong
> - F16 TWR, empty weight, payload, SC,
> - Gripen Vixen 500 radar, empty weight, payload, G load,



Rafale TWR 1.08 is fine.

If that is the case, why should we go for partnership with french firm for new Kaveri engine for AMCA?

Rafale engine thrust - 60 kn to 75 kn

Kaveri engine thrust (achieved till now) - 70-75 kn

If the above is the case, we can easily use the current Kaveri engines for AMCA, no need a partnership with French firm.

(For LCA Mk2, it is fine as the single engine needed 90-95 kn)

What you think?


----------



## angeldemon_007

> Kaveri engine thrust (achieved till now) - 70-75 kn


The Kaveri Snecma engine which would be used in AMCA and later tejas have a thrust of 90Kn.


----------



## Mani2020

India is in kind of dilemma ,for what to go and for what not to.

On one side they have Russia but Russia is not a big problem as they can be managed by 5th generation deal

Then it comes to Sweeden who is offering more TOT out of all competitors also is agreed to work with local companies ,and you can't get a better opportunity to develop your local industry 

but then on the other side You have US who is really trying hard to sell their aircraft and india buy tilting towards US side and being in their corner if rejects that might effect other deals plus may have negative impact on diplomatic relationship.Also the most important factor for India is to have their foot in Afghanistan and they can't do so without uncle sam's help

The last but not the least EF-2000 which by far is technologically superior out of all the aircrafts and rejecting it would really be a bad news also when india already is operating british aircrafts and have years long cooperation in defence field will make it easy to maintain a british origin aircraft


----------



## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> The question is how much ToT we would get of these techs, Rafale is often offered with full ToT of the radar + source codes, but I would prefer SPECTRA ToT, to use it later on 5. gen fighters like FGFA.



How do you compare SPECTRA with Mayawi?? ... There are reports which states that the latter is the best and will go into 5G craft of IAF


----------



## rockstarIN

> Mani2020 said:
> 
> 
> 
> India is in kind of dilemma ,for what to go and for what not to.
> 
> On one side they have Russia but Russia is not a big problem as they can be managed by 5th generation deal
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Russia knows MMRCA will not go for their way, as you said its is managed by PAK FA
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then it comes to Sweeden who is offering more TOT out of all competitors also is agreed to work with local companies ,and you can't get a better opportunity to develop your local industry
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> TOT and local production is offered by everyone, not just Sweden, Gripen will not fit into IAF as we are going for LCA Mk2, which is more or less equal.---problem solved------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> but then on the other side You have US who is really trying hard to sell their aircraft and india buy tilting towards US side and being in their corner if rejects that might effect other deals plus may have negative impact on diplomatic relationship.Also the most important factor for India is to have their foot in Afghanistan and they can't do so without uncle sam's help
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Afganistan and MMRCA??? two different stuff, no US jets in IAF. Even US knows that they are not gonna win else there should be no strings at all. Ball is in their court.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The last but not the least EF-2000 which by far is technologically superior out of all the aircrafts and rejecting it would really be a bad news also when india already is operating british aircrafts and have years long cooperation in defence field will make it easy to maintain a british origin aircraft
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The only confusion is is it EF or Rafale....
> 
> There Rafale is good coz it is good as EF (may be 20% difference in capacity) BUT France is not going for F-35, AMCA is powered by France co-Kaveri engine. etc. etc.
> 
> There is a huge chance that IAF go for Rafale and AMCA will be developed by India and France as france is not committed to F-35, afterall they need a 5th gen fighter. arent they? they hardly go for PAK FA, and no Chinese one. The only option left with co partner with INDIAN AMCA.
Click to expand...


----------



## Skull and Bones

Mani2020 said:


> India is in kind of dilemma ,for what to go and for what not to.
> 
> On one side they have Russia but Russia is not a big problem as they can be managed by 5th generation deal
> 
> Then it comes to Sweeden who is offering more TOT out of all competitors also is agreed to work with local companies ,and you can't get a better opportunity to develop your local industry
> 
> but then on the other side You have US who is really trying hard to sell their aircraft and india buy tilting towards US side and being in their corner if rejects that might effect other deals plus may have negative impact on diplomatic relationship.Also the most important factor for India is to have their foot in Afghanistan and they can't do so without uncle sam's help
> 
> The last but not the least EF-2000 which by far is technologically superior out of all the aircrafts and rejecting it would really be a bad news also when india already is operating british aircrafts and have years long cooperation in defence field will make it easy to maintain a british origin aircraft


US jets are a strict no-go for us, because they are sanction prone, and no significant ToT involved. 

IAF has bitter experience with cost escalation mirage upgrade program. this can affect the mmrca contract. And we'll be dependent on the french for any kind of up gradation in future. 

We'll hardly get any significant ToT in Gripen, since most of components are from US.

Mig-35 is basically a very good aircraft, but IAF has no interest in it.

So EFT is the only contender left. But it will take time to mature.


----------



## Mani2020

> *rockstar*;1446993]
> 
> Russia knows MMRCA will not go for their way, as you said its is managed by PAK FA


Exactly that is what i said,Even IAF can upgrade there mig-29's with the AESA radar operational on Mig-35 later on



> TOT and local production is offered by everyone, not just Sweden, Gripen will not fit into IAF as we are going for LCA Mk2, which is more or less equal.---problem solved------



No everyone is not offering full TOT Americans are offering limited TOT . plus the point was Saab is ready to work with local indian company on other projects if Gripen deal materialized and that itslef will be a boost to local manufacturing industry.
And single engine will be more suitable for IAF as they dont want to be burdened by twin engine heavy maintanence aircarfts which have less sortie rates .with single engine you can achieve more sorties which is always a benefit plus the ease of maintainance , Apart from mirages no other aicraft in IAF inventory would be single engine because we all know mig-21's will be replaced so are Jaguars , so Mig-29,FGFA, Su-30 all are twin engine fighters and hat too in large numbers another single engine along with LCA would be ideal as it would be a perfect match ,a nice blend of single engine and heavy class fighters .Even US still maintains a large fleet of single engine F-16's that too somehwere around 1300 numbers mark coz they know how difficult it is to maintain them 



> Afganistan and MMRCA??? two different stuff, no US jets in IAF. Even US knows that they are not gonna win else there should be no strings at all. Ball is in their court.



When it comes to politics every thing is co-related ,its like "you do this for us and we will do that for you"


----------



## Mani2020

Skull and Bones said:


> US jets are a strict no-go for us, because they are sanction prone, and no significant ToT involved.
> 
> IAF has bitter experience with cost escalation mirage upgrade program. this can affect the mmrca contract. And we'll be dependent on the french for any kind of up gradation in future.
> 
> We'll hardly get any significant ToT in Gripen, since most of components are from US.
> 
> Mig-35 is basically a very good aircraft, but IAF has no interest in it.
> 
> So EFT is the only contender left. *But it will take time to mature. *



EF-2000 is already 17 years old.It made its first flight somewhere around in 1994 and today is 2011 so its enough time that have been passed .also many airforces are already using it ,so i don't see any point of pre-maturity. the only draw-back is its AESA but i think it will be operational soon


----------



## Skull and Bones

Mani2020 said:


> EF-2000 is already 17 years old.It made its first flight somewhere around in 1994 and today is 2011 so its enough time that have been passed .also many airforces are already using it ,so i don't see any point of pre-maturity. the only draw-back is its AESA but i think it will be operational soon



Don't forget the thrust vectoring


----------



## IND151

*



by Skull and Bones
Don't forget the thrust vectoring

Click to expand...

* reduced RCS also must not forgotten.


----------



## sancho

PANDORA said:


> *MIRAGE M2K STILL ON SALE*
> 
> *France has proposed to sell 18 Mirage F1 retrofitted aircraft* that can be delivered from late 2011 and immediately operational because many Iraqi pilots were trained in the past on this type of plane,"




As you can see, 2nd hand Mirage F1!




rockstar said:


> Rafale TWR 1.08 is fine.
> 
> If that is the case, why should we go for partnership with french firm for new Kaveri engine for AMCA?
> 
> Rafale engine thrust - 60 kn to 75 kn
> 
> Kaveri engine thrust (achieved till now) - 70-75 kn
> 
> If the above is the case, we can easily use the current Kaveri engines for AMCA, no need a partnership with French firm.
> 
> (For LCA Mk2, it is fine as the single engine needed 90-95 kn)
> 
> What you think?




Kaveri - engine was aimed on LCA from the begining and although it is delinked from it at the moment (not enough thrust, not mature enough), it seems to be the plan to integrate it on the Tejas MK1 during the MLU. That means, no second order of foreign engines would be needed. If that is the case, the selection of GE 414 on MK2, instead of to more capable EJ200 makes sense, because that means the US engine is only chosen as a cost-effective and proven stopgap and will be replaced by Kaveri - Snecma engine as well.
For AMCA Kaveri - Snecma engine with 90kN is needed for sure, because a stealth fighter carries more weight and fuel, then a normal 4. / 4.5 gen fighter, because of the internal weapon bays and bigger internal fuel tanks. Therefor, the TWR should be good as well, if the aim is to have a good manouverability, personally I have even some doubts if 90kN will be enough, but that depends on the final specs of AMCA.




kingdurgaking said:


> How do you compare SPECTRA with Mayawi?? ... There are reports which states that the latter is the best and will go into 5G craft of IAF




Mayawi is still very unknown, there are only a few sources available and it's capabilities are not proven yet, so saying it is the best is not really reliable when you can't base it on facts. Also it was made for LCA Tejas, a 4. / 4.5 gen cost-effective low end fighter and although I do think the Israelis developed a very effective defense system again, I expect it to be less capable compared to an EWS of an 5. gen stealth fighter.
There were some rumors that Israel wants to use it on their F35s, but the reports were not realy reliable and talked mainly about *an Israeli EWS*, not directly about Mayavi. We might base FGFA, or AMCA EWS on Mayavi, but I wouldn't mind some ToT of SPECTRA as well.


----------



## sudhir007

YouTube - Saab at Aero India


----------



## Mani2020

Skull and Bones said:


> Don't forget the thrust vectoring



The new engine has TVC ,just watched that documentary few days back


----------



## Skull and Bones

Mani2020 said:


> The new engine has TVC ,just watched that documentary few days back



please post that link, m dying to see a thrust vectoring EFT


----------



## SpArK

Eurofighter Technology and Performance : Propulsion


----------



## sancho

Skull and Bones said:


> please post that link, m dying to see a thrust vectoring EFT



This is a good article about it including a video:

Eurojet pushes thrust-vectoring technology for Typhoon


TVC is developed for EF, but it's doubtful that it will be added in T3, because the partners don't see the need for additional cost.


----------



## Skull and Bones

sancho said:


> This is a good article about it including a video:
> 
> Eurojet pushes thrust-vectoring technology for Typhoon
> 
> 
> TVC is developed for EF, *but it's doubtful that it will be added in T3, because the partners don't see the need for additional cost.*


this the problem of having multiple partners, every up-gradation has to see the green light from each and every member


----------



## sancho

Skull and Bones said:


> this the problem of having multiple partners, every up-gradation has to see the green light from each and every member



At least for the core techs like radar, or engine. In this case one partner could do it alone, but the point is they don't see a real need for it and possibly they are right. The EF even now is one of, or even the most manouverable fighter besides the F22 possibly, so it don't need TVC neccesarily in this regard. That is also the reason why the consortium companies says that TVC would improve the fuel consumption as well, to offer another advantage. 
However, the reality at the moment is, that the partner countries have not the money to fully develop the EF and that's why they are desperately searching for a new foreign partner, be it India, Turkey, or Japan. But all these countries already (co-)develop an 5. gen fighter, so teaming up and paying so much to improve EF for basic features does not make much sense, not even for EF partners like Italy, or UK, that are partners in F35 as well.

EF could undeniably be a great fighter, but it came too late, is too costly and less developed now!


----------



## angeldemon_007

> TVC is developed for EF, but it's doubtful that it will be added in T3, because the partners don't see the need for additional cost.


But we are getting TVC.

Read this article...
Upgraded Eurofighter offered to Indian Air Force


> From the article:
> European aerospace conglomerate EADS, the manufacturer of the Eurofighter Typhoon, has aggressively pushed for an Indian Air Force (IAF) order for 126 combat jets by offering the plane with a thrust vector upgrade that will considerably improve its operational capabilities.
> The upgrade will pay for itself through life cycle cost reductions, an EADS statement said Monday


What does it meant, upgrade will pay for itself through life cycle cost reductions ?? I mean, will they be charging extra from what they had submitted in the offer ??/
According to me....No, because the offer was placed before and these upgrades offer came afterwards.


----------



## the rafter

*With own 5G jet plan, India 'rejects' US offer*
NEW DELHI: India has no plans as of now to either join the US-led joint strike fighter (JSF) programme or buy the F-35 'Lightning-II ' fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) when it finally becomes operational. 

"We cannot have two types of FGFA. We have already launched preliminary work for our FGFA after inking the $295 million preliminary design contract (PDC) with Russia last month," said a top defence ministry official on Friday. 

This comes in the wake of comments made by a top Pentagon official, undersecretary of defence for acquisition, technology and logistics Ashton Carter, in Washington that the US was open to Indian participation in its JSF project. 

Interestingly, the comments came during a function where an aggressive sales pitch was made for India to select either the American F/A-18 'Super Hornet' ( Boeing) or F-16 'Falcon' ( Lockheed Martin ) over their European rivals in the ongoing IAF's medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) contest. 

The other 4.5-generation fighters in the hotly-contested race to bag the $10.4 billion MMRCA project, under which 18 jets will be bought offthe-shelf and another 108 will be manufactured in India under transfer of technology, are Eurofighter Typhoon, Swedish Gripen (Saab), French Rafale (Dassault) and Russian MiG-35 (United Aircraft Corporation ). 

The IAF force matrix for the coming years revolves around the 270 Sukhoi-30 MKIs contracted from Russia for around $12 billion, the 126 MMRCA and 120 indigenous Tejas Light Combat Aircraft, apart from upgraded MiG-29 s and Mirage-2000s. 

In the decades ahead, the advanced stealth FGFA to be developed with Russia will be the mainstay of India's combat fleet. "Our FGFA will be cheaper than the F-35 . Moreover , the intellectual property rights of the FGFA will equally and jointly vest on both India and Russia, with full access to the source code and the like," said another senior official. 

With a potent mix of super-manoeuvrability and supersonic cruising ability , the 'swing-role' FGFA will of course not come cheap. The cost of designing, infrastructure build-up , prototype development and flight testing has been pegged at around $11 billion, with India and Russia chipping in with $5.5 billion each. 

Over and above this, each of the 250-300 FGFA India hopes to begin inducting from 2020 onwards will cost around $100 million each. In all, India will spend upwards of $35 billion over the next two decades in its biggest-ever defence project till now.
With own 5G jet plan, India 'rejects' US offer - The Times of India


----------



## Mani2020

Skull and Bones said:


> this the problem of having multiple partners, every up-gradation has to see the green light from each and every member



Its upto the users whether they want it or not,they will always go with the solution that is more feasible for them

Similarly india if wants TVC they can ask them and surely it will be there


----------



## Mani2020

sancho said:


> At least for the core techs like radar, or engine. In this case one partner could do it alone, but the point is they don't see a real need for it and possibly they are right. The EF even now is one of, or even the most manouverable fighter besides the F22 possibly, so it don't need TVC neccesarily in this regard. That is also the reason why the consortium companies says that TVC would improve the fuel consumption as well, to offer another advantage.
> However, the reality at the moment is, that the partner countries have not the money to fully develop the EF and that's why they are desperately searching for a new foreign partner, be it India, Turkey, or Japan. But all these countries already (co-)develop an 5. gen fighter, so teaming up and paying so much to improve EF for basic features does not make much sense, not even for EF partners like Italy, or UK, that are partners in F35 as well.
> 
> EF could undeniably be a great fighter, but it came too late, is too costly and less developed now!




Also with such a high price tag of EF-2000 ,countries are still in dilemma whether to go for it in that high price tag or add few bucks and go for F-35 , similar thing stuck Japan they were interested in EF-2000 after the sale of Raptor was rejected but later with the price tag of EF-2000 they preferred F-35 .And now by adding TVC its price will further shoot up and that will make it a hell of costly fighter thats why they are hesitant to go for it


----------



## angeldemon_007

> Also with such a high price tag of EF-2000 ,countries are still in dilemma whether to go for it in that high price tag or add few bucks and go for F-35


The problem with F35 is not just high price but also high maintenance cost. It is clear by the fact that US is keeping all the cards to itself, so if any upgrade or glitches come in the fighter, then the operator has to go to US only thus making sure a fixed income for US but a high cost of maintenance for user countries.


----------



## GORKHALI




----------



## Baajirao

tejjas is late MRCA is late...this MRCA is becoming pride issue for all countries and can make indian possition very bad at the end...[/QUOTE] main race is between Europeans & Americans ....both 
of them are good businessmen.Also india is buying without any soft loans....Every one should respect the rulr buyer`s market


----------



## sancho

angeldemon_007 said:


> But we are getting TVC.
> 
> Read this article...
> Upgraded Eurofighter offered to Indian Air Force
> 
> What does it meant, upgrade will pay for itself through life cycle cost reductions ?? I mean, will they be charging extra from what they had submitted in the offer ??/
> According to me....No, because the offer was placed before and these upgrades offer came afterwards.



It means what I said before, TVC is an upgrade option for any customer of the EF, if he is ready to pay additional costs for it! It was developed and some ground tests were done even in the early 2000s, but nobody had paid for the integration into EF, or the neccesary further developments and flight test. So the argument of Eurojet is, that these additional costs will be paid off during the life cycle of the fighters, because of the lower fuel consumption. 
It's the same like upgrade options for the F18SH (GE 414 EPE, in future CFTs, integrated IRST...), or the Rafale (HMS, CFTs), Mig 35 (foreign avionics and maybe weapons), Gripen NG (Israeli, or Russian weapons), all these things are possible, some are even developed and tested, but never integrated. Some customer thinks they are not needed, but mainly it depends on cost reasons and especially for the EF that is a problem, because as long as T3 is still not fully cleared, we don't know what techs, or weapons means additional costs.




Mani2020 said:


> Also with such a high price tag of EF-2000 ,countries are still in dilemma whether to go for it in that high price tag or add few bucks and go for F-35 , similar thing stuck Japan they were interested in EF-2000 after the sale of Raptor was rejected but later with the price tag of EF-2000 they preferred F-35 .And now by adding TVC its price will further shoot up and that will make it a hell of costly fighter thats why they are hesitant to go for it



It's not the price alone, because they are right to say that in some fields EF is more 5. gen than F35 (SC, super maneuverability swashplate radar)!
The biggest problem for EF is, that Italy and UK are not only partners in that development, but in F35 as well, so it's not only export customers that asks themself should we buy EF, or F35, but even these developing countries itself. If they were as comitted to EF as Germany/Spain, or as France on Rafale, they would focus way more on future capabilities, even if the costs are high.
At the moment I think neither UK, nor Italy will remain on their T3B order plans and will cancel, or resell them to other countries (India, Japan, Turkey) in favour of F35 orders. Even in Germany, where the EF is one of the least developed anyway, the T3B orders are more than in trouble.
It's actually a great fighter, but it's sad that it might never show it's real potential.


----------



## the rafter

*Rafale - Active cancellation*
But there is more to Spectra than conventional jamming. Pierre-Yves Chaltiel, a Thales engineer on the Spectra program, remarked in a 1997 interview that Spectra uses "stealthy jamming modes that not only have a saturating effect, but make the aircraft invisible... There are some very specific techniques to obtain the signature of a real LO [low-observable] aircraft." When asked if he was talking about active cancellation, Chaltiel declined to answer. 

Earlier this year, Thales and European missile-builder MBDA disclosed that they were working on active-cancellation technology for cruise missiles and had already tested it on a small unmanned aerial vehicle, using a combination of active and passive techniques to manage radar signature. This revelation makes it considerably more likely that active cancellation is already being developed for Rafale. 

*Active cancellation is a LO technique in which the aircraft, when painted by a radar, transmits a signal which mimics the echo that the radar will receive - but one half-wavelength out of phase, so that the radar sees no return at all.* The advantage of this technique is that it uses very low power, compared with conventional EW, and provides no clues to the aircraft's presence; the challenge is that it requires very fast processing and that poorly executed active cancellation could make the target more rather than less visible. 

The complexity of active cancellation could account for Spectra's high price tag, estimated in 1997 as "several billion francs" (equivalent to the high hundreds of millions of US dollars) for research and development. One of four Rafale prototypes was dedicated to Spectra tests, along with a Falcon 20 flying testbed. Four new large anechoic chambers were built to support the Spectra project, including one which is large and well equipped enough to operate the complete system in a fully detailed electromagnetic environment. 
Rafale, Dassault-Breguet

Not much is known about active cancellation. Sancho, do you have any more information about this that you could share here?


----------



## GORKHALI

*GOSSIP GIRL *
MILITARY AVIATION AND SPACE TECHNOLOGY NEWS


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## IndianTiger

WebMaster said:


> The most competitor fighters i believe would be Mirage 2000-5, and F-18 Super Hornet in terms of qualtiy being given to IAF. Since now IAF is considering to buy 2 types of aircrafts which will not just be replacing Mig-21s but will also replacing the Jaguars of IAF.
> 
> Mirage 2000-5 would probably be the first choice of IAF as it would give the TOT? and also is the main competitor of F-16 Block 50, considering that Pakistan is acquiring more F-16s its really looks like that Mirage 2000-5 will be likely choice in the future for IAF. Now its interesting that what other aircraft will IAF be really interested in? Will it be Mig-35 which yet not even exists or will it be Gripen which is the very possible out come of PAF in the future.
> 
> MRCA deal is getting interesting. Looking at F-18 Super Hornet i wouldn't call it very bad choice, it will bring in new qualtive weapons in the IAF inventory, and it is very highly unlikely that United States will ever slap sanctions on India, it will further improve ties of both countries, but on the other hand will significantly effect its strategical ally Russia.



according to Initial reports Eurofighter and rafale is choice of IAF.
US lagging behind in this deal because they offerd F 16 to Pakistan.
so will they provide advance version to Pakistan.


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## sancho

IndianTiger said:


> according to Initial reports Eurofighter and rafale is choice of IAF.
> US lagging behind in this deal because they offerd F 16 to Pakistan.
> so will they provide advance version to Pakistan.



No, they now get Block 52, but they will be upgraded later with AESA as well and most likely will get the same CFTs with refuelling probe. The weapons are hardly different anyway, which leaves IAF with very little advantages over PAFs F16s, if they would buy F16IN.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Sancho we already have CFTs for ur F-16s.


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## sancho

Interesting news on the Rafale newsblog:



> *MMRCA Analysis*
> 
> An extensive analysis on the current Indian Air Force competition to procure a Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA).
> 
> This 142 pages document, written by Ashley L. Tellis, a former Senior adviser at the US ambassy of new Delhi, reviews the Indian seclection process and try to make an objective technical and political comparison of the 6 aircrafts involved in the contest.(Mig-35, Gripen, Rafale, Typhoon, F-16E, F/A-18E)
> 
> Despite an apparent attempt to remain neutral, the author inevitably shows some biased tendencies in favor of the two US products.which are eventually described as far cheaper but technologically on par or more advanced than their european counterparts.
> 
> A rapid reading will also reveal several errors or approximation. Just to name a few :
> 
> * The supercruise ability of the F-35, while the USAF doesn't advertise such a fact
> * The Gripen NG sustained turn rate asserted to be the best by a fair margin whereas the actual plane has never flown in its final configuration.
> * The RBE-2 AA of the Rafale supposedly still in developpement until the middle of the decade whereas the first serial units have been delivered in august 2010 to the French Air Force.
> * The comparative fly away prices of the 6 fighters which is a clumsy attempt to compare figures obtained from various sources published at different times and including different packages.
> 
> Still worth reading but with a pinch of salt though




Also interesting, some infos about the exercise the French navy had with UAE navy and airforce, after Varuna 2010 with Indian navy:



> *Agapanthe 2010 : Big Fox exercise with the UAE Air Force*
> 
> After the Varuna exercise with the Indian Navy, the CdG and its air wing have sailed to the Oman gulf for "Big Fox", a four day training (jan 23-26th) with the UAE Navy and Air Force.
> 
> *During the exercise, the Emirate F-16E and Mirage 2000-9 as well as French Air Force Rafale from the Al Dafra air base performed several strikes on the french carrier group defended by Rafale M F3. Conversely, the UAE Air Force also carried out interdiction missions to protect the Emirate air space against French Navy fighters attacks. A total of 158 flights were performed during the event which involved 3 of the most potent multirole fighters.*
> 
> No doubt that this 2011 issue of Big Fox was an important occasion for the UAE Air Force officers to have a closer look at the combat efficiency of the latest Rafale block.
> 
> *Concerning the possible sell of the Rafale to the UAE, it is worth noting that the Emirate demand to get more flight slots in the French air space have been agreed by the French government, allowing the discussions on the Rafale to resume*. Who knows, mays be we can expect an happy conclusion to this story in June at Le Bourget 2011 ?



Rafale News


Besides that I would love to here more about the results of the engagements of F16 B60s (with AESA) and Rafale F3 (without AESA), these kind of joint airforce and navy exercise against the French carrier was what I wanted to see from IAF and IN as well. 
Fielding Mig 29Ks and Jaguar IMs against the Rafale Ms, would have made a lot of sense, but it seems Varuna exercise was based on naval training only.
Btw that GoF cleared more flight slots is a big point towards the UAE deal, now it seems the only issue is to find a customer for the Mirage 2000-9 and I guess that could be Brazil.


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## sancho

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Sancho we already have CFTs for ur F-16s.



Not the new one with an integrated refuelling probe, PAF so far can't air refuel their F16s, because they don't have tankers with a boom system and these new CFTs are obviously cheaper than buying an new tanker. Btw, last time I checked (but I have to admit that's some time ago), PAFs B52s don't have CFTs and they are only on order right?


----------



## Mani2020

sancho said:


> It's not the price alone, because they are right to say that in some fields EF is more 5. gen than F35 (SC, super maneuverability swashplate radar)!
> The biggest problem for EF is, that Italy and UK are not only partners in that development, but in F35 as well, so it's not only export customers that asks themself should we buy EF, or F35, but even these developing countries itself. If they were as comitted to EF as Germany/Spain, or as France on Rafale, they would focus way more on future capabilities, even if the costs are high.
> At the moment I think neither UK, nor Italy will remain on their T3B order plans and will cancel, or resell them to other countries (India, Japan, Turkey) in favour of F35 orders. Even in Germany, where the EF is one of the least developed anyway, the T3B orders are more than in trouble.
> It's actually a great fighter, but it's sad that it might never show it's real potential.



lol i think they themselves were not expecting EF-2000 to be such a beast 

anywayz on serious note i think they tilted towards F-35 because they trusted US tech regarding 5th generation as they already had F-22 the only 5th generation fighter and F-35 was projected to be a cheaper 5th generation aircraft somewhere around 80 million price tag so they would have thought why not to go for a 5th generation at a price tag lower then their 4.5+++ fighter but at that time they would have never imagine that the F-35 program will become so fragile and the prices will further shoot-up ,after the escalation of prices now some countries are really putting their thinking caps on and revising the decisions .so i think with further escalation and delaying of F-35 ,EF-2000 may become more valuable for UK and Italy and they might revise their needs


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## Mani2020

sancho said:


> Not the new one with an integrated refuelling probe, PAF so far can't air refuel their F16s, because they don't have tankers with a boom system and these new CFTs are obviously cheaper than buying an new tanker. Btw, last time I checked (but I have to admit that's some time ago), PAFs B52s don't have CFTs and they are only on order right?



No, our Block-52's have CFT's but we haven't seen them yet.ACM mentioned that CFT's reduce maneuverability so they will only be used if there will be dire need .

By going with this statement of ACM i don't see PAF going for CFT's for rest of F-16's probably a new tanker will be bought ,few time back there was negotiation with the Airbus to convert PAF A-310's to MRTT but the problem was Airbus rather proposed A-320 to PAF ,after that we never heard any news, don't know what happened to the deal but as F-16's are potent aircrafts and after up gradation to block 52 level they will be more potent so i think we will see 1 or 2 tankers sooner or later 

And one thing to add to your knowledge CFT's come with block 52+ not with Block 52 and Paf f-16's are block 52+ , there are not much differnce b/w Block 52 and block 52+ just minor ones the only major one is CFT's, lot of people here don't know the difference among 52 and 52+ they consider both same so they mention PAF f-16's generally as 52 but actually they are 52+


----------



## Skull and Bones

the rafter said:


> *Rafale - Active cancellation*
> But there is more to Spectra than conventional jamming. Pierre-Yves Chaltiel, a Thales engineer on the Spectra program, remarked in a 1997 interview that Spectra uses "stealthy jamming modes that not only have a saturating effect, but make the aircraft invisible... There are some very specific techniques to obtain the signature of a real LO [low-observable] aircraft." When asked if he was talking about active cancellation, Chaltiel declined to answer.
> 
> Earlier this year, Thales and European missile-builder MBDA disclosed that they were working on active-cancellation technology for cruise missiles and had already tested it on a small unmanned aerial vehicle, using a combination of active and passive techniques to manage radar signature. This revelation makes it considerably more likely that active cancellation is already being developed for Rafale.
> 
> *Active cancellation is a LO technique in which the aircraft, when painted by a radar, transmits a signal which mimics the echo that the radar will receive - but one half-wavelength out of phase, so that the radar sees no return at all.* The advantage of this technique is that it uses very low power, compared with conventional EW, and provides no clues to the aircraft's presence; the challenge is that it requires very fast processing and that poorly executed active cancellation could make the target more rather than less visible.
> 
> The complexity of active cancellation could account for Spectra's high price tag, estimated in 1997 as "several billion francs" (equivalent to the high hundreds of millions of US dollars) for research and development. One of four Rafale prototypes was dedicated to Spectra tests, along with a Falcon 20 flying testbed. Four new large anechoic chambers were built to support the Spectra project, including one which is large and well equipped enough to operate the complete system in a fully detailed electromagnetic environment.
> Rafale, Dassault-Breguet
> 
> Not much is known about active cancellation. Sancho, do you have any more information about this that you could share here?



Which is better??
A very low observable aircraft, which is hard to detect but can be detected with advanced radar OR an aircraft with an efficient jammer?

in case of active cancellation feature of Rafale, can it be detected by two radar operating at different frequency ?


----------



## sancho

For those who didn't read the full carnegie report (http://carnegieendowment.org/files/dogfight.pdf), here are some excerpts of the most interesting part of the analysis, about the operational requirements of IAF and what MMRCA should be able to do, or should offer to fit in these roles:



> In part, this is because the IAF seeks a multi-role aircraft, meaning *one that can fulfill both air-to-air and air-to-ground missions with equal felicity.*
> 
> Given this substantial offensive lineup,* the aircraft selected for the MMRCA component will no doubt have theater or battlefield air interdiction as an adjuvant responsibility, but it is unlikely to eclipse the IAF&#8217;s principal mission of protecting Indian air space through the conduct of counterair operations.*
> 
> 
> Since the IAF&#8217;s preferred aircraft will be one that excels in the air-to-air dimension of the counterair campaign without sacrificing air-to-ground effectiveness, it follows from the mission needs detailed above that the airplane finally selected by the air force must be superior to all others in both offensive and defensive counterair operations. *This implies that the prospective MMRCA system must be especially effective in executing the fighter sweep, offensive and defensive air escort, C-AISR, screening, CAP, and air intercept missions in particular.*
> 
> This includes *airfield attacks* (interdicting adversary aircraft on the ground directly, denying them the use of runways, or destroying operational necessities such as fuel or lubricants); *fighter sweeps* (seeking out and destroying adversary aircraft in a disputed air space); *offensive air escort* (missions tasked with protecting friendly strike packages en route to enemy targets); *C-AISR*, or counter-airborne intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance operations (intercepting and destroying an adversary&#8217;s airborne warning and control systems, or AWACS); and integrated air defense systems (*IADS*) takedown (suppressing the air defense net or parts thereof by attacking its vulnerable nodes) *CAP*, or combat air patrol (positioning aircraft over or near the area or force being defended); *defensive air escort* (protecting high-value assets involved in airborne early warning, airlift, or air rescue operations); or *air intercept* (identifying and engaging enemy aircraft engaged in hostile air action)
> 
> 
> Because the future air combat environment in Southern Asia will be defined by the presence of &#8220;AWACS symmetry,&#8221;28 meaning the availability of airborne early warning platforms in the inventories of all the competitors, the primacy of the C-AISR mission will increase dramatically. *This implies that IAF operations at the onset of any major conflict would focus on targeting the adversary&#8217;s AEW and AWACS assets, either on the ground or in the air, in conjunction with attacks on its land-based integrated air defense system*. In this context, the IAF is also likely to focus on more generic airfield attacks whenever possible, not necessarily for runway suppression but to interdict the combat aircraft that may be lodged in hardened aircraft bunkers, especially at key air bases. The more enemy aircraft are destroyed on the ground in this way-or through complementary ballistic and cruise missile attacks-the weaker the subsequent air threat to India will be. In any event, attacking high-value AWACS aircraft and other combat aircraft at their bases would require precision strikes, either on key support assets like runways or petroleum, oil, and lubricant storage, or on the individual shelters protecting these high-value assets, or directly on the aircraft themselves (if bedded down in the open). *Such missions are what the dedicated strike components of the IAF are most appropriate for. It is not surprising, however, that the MMRCA tender requires all suppliers to demonstrate that their airplanes, too, can carry a wide range of precision direct attack and standoff weaponry capable of executing such missions because it is certain that the multi-role component of the force will also be committed to such tasks. This mission, in fact, will only grow in importance as the dedicated strike platforms are eventually phased out of the IAF over time.*
> 
> Since success is not assured in any case...the IAF will be faced with the challenge of intercepting those AWACS platforms that survive its air base attacks. Once airborne and operating, AWACS platforms are usually difficult targets to attack because they fly well behind the front, are protected by fighter screens, and are able to detect attacking airplanes well before the latter can pose a direct threat.
> *An MMRCA candidate that possessed high maximum speed, a low radar cross-section, good long-range sensors and more importantly weaponry, and a sophisticated on-board EW system would, therefore, be an ideal platform for the future C-AISR mission in South Asia.*
> 
> 
> Yet the importance of mastering WVR dogfighting will never go away. This is partly because even the best BVR weapons invariably have less than perfect single shot probabilities of kill, especially in air combat characterized by pervasive EW, and hence what may begin as a long-range engagement could rapidly evolve into a close encounter. The requirements of positively identifying an adversary before missile launch in some tactical circumstances-especially when AEW cover is absent-may also necessitate IAF fighters closing in on their targets, with visual-range combat becoming the only alternative under such conditions. *In any event, it is in these situations that the maneuverability of the IAF&#8217;s fighter platforms would become a critical factor in success or failure, along with, of course, other characteristics like the effectiveness of their on-board avionics, short-range AAMs, and defensive countermeasures systems. It is, therefore, not surprising that the IAF will look closely at these qualities when examining the various MMRCA competitors.*
> 
> 
> Again, depending on circumstances, *the MMRCA component would also be committed to direct attacks on the adversary&#8217;s military forces itself, both on the battlefield and in the rear*, especially when concentrated or when moving along strategic avenues of approach. The IAF clearly recognizes that the success of these operations would be greatly enhanced by the ability to attack this wide range of targets with precision munitions, as opposed to dumb bombs, especially at night and in adverse weather. *Consequently, it has emphasized that the MMRCA acquisition should yield platforms that possess advanced radars with sophisticated air-to-ground modes as well as other sensors such as forward looking infrared (FLIR) pods, superior EW systems that permit effective and safe penetration to target in the face of the emerging regional SAM threats, weapons delivery systems that ensure a high probability of successful attack on the first pass, and a variety of specialized munitions that would be necessary for executing the various surface-attack operations associated with the air interdiction mission.*
> 
> 
> *While the maritime strike component of the anti-surface mission has not received much public attention, there is little doubt that this assignment will only increase in importance over time. The MMRCA&#8217;s Request for Proposals recognizes this clearly.* At the moment, the IAF conducts the maritime strike mission mainly through its Jaguar and Su-30MKI platforms, but all the MMRCA candidates currently under review could easily undertake these operations so long as the relevant weapons were procured.
> 
> 
> Even as the IAF pays great attention to how the winning MMRCA&#8217;s weapons would sustain its aerial superiority over the next few decades, it has not lost sight of the need for advanced air-to-ground weapons. *For reasons of cost and utility, as well as doctrinal proclivities, the IAF has not focused on close air support weapons but rather on those most effective for battlefield air interdiction operations and deep penetration and strike missions at theater distances*...
> ...*In this connection, the service has sought both direct attack as well as standoff weaponry.* The former include both laserguided bombs and coordinate-seeking weaponry, such as the Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM), which employs global positioning system signals to reach its targets. The latter includes various long-range systems, such as the Standoff Land Attack Missile and the Storm Shadow, which are employed for highly accurate attacks on deep land targets, as well as shorter-ranged air-to-ground missiles, such as the Maverick and the Joint Standoff Weapon (JSOW), which are designed to engage various tactical targets found during battlefield air interdiction missions, such as armor, vehicles, command posts, and fuel transport systems. *Interestingly, the IAF has not solicited any weapons designed specifically for the SEAD mission, which suggests that it intends to use either its strike unmanned aerial vehicles or the AS-17 missile, associated with the SU-30MKI, for this purpose.*
> 
> 
> *The operational context in Southern Asia elaborated above suggests that the MMRCA candidate selected by the IAF will have to be an utterly versatile platform that earns the title of &#8220;multi-role&#8221; precisely because that attribute will be at a premium in future subcontinental conflicts. It must be able to flexibly shift from air combat to ground attack operations during the day, night, or adverse weather because such dexterity will be essential for success in the counterair mission alone. In this context, the ideal aircraft would be one that possesses a low radar cross-section, deploys advanced sensors and self-protection suites, carries a heavy weapons load consisting of both long-range AAMs and diverse precision anti-surface weaponry, and possesses superior agility, endurance, and combat effectiveness. Since the air-to-ground role thus becomes virtually conjoint with the air-to-air requirement where the MMRCA is concerned, the six contenders should be evaluated according to their effectiveness in both missions*




So according to the analysis of IAF operational requirements, the wining MMRCA has to be a multi role aircraft,...

- that is equally good in A2A and A2G roles
- that is highly versatile to fulfill a wide range of missions
- that has a low RCS, high maximum speed, long range sensor and weapons, as well as a sophisticated EWS for C-AISR missions
- that will takeover the main strike role in IAF from older ground attack fighters
- that offers advanced radars with A2G modes, LDPs, superior EWS that enable the fighter to enter the an airspace with a dense SAM threat and is able to fulfill the strike attack in the first pass over
- that offers highly capable direct attack and standoff weapons, for deep penetration strike missions, but not neccesarily dedicated SEAD weapons
- that still offers the high maneuverability that IAF requires from their fighters in the A2A role
- that can offer a maritime attack capability for the future (this is also important in regard to the IN MMRCA competition)


So the question must be, which fighter suits Indian forces at best, under these requirements?

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Archie

sancho said:


> For those who didn't read the full carnegie report (http://carnegieendowment.org/files/dogfight.pdf), here are some excerpts of the most interesting part of the analysis, about the operational requirements of IAF and what MMRCA should be able to do, or should offer to fit in these roles:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So according to the analysis of IAF operational requirements, the wining MMRCA has to be a multi role aircraft,...
> 
> - that is equally good in A2A and A2G roles
> - that is highly versatile to fulfill a wide range of missions
> - that has a low RCS, high maximum speed, long range sensor and weapons, as well as a sophisticated EWS for C-AISR missions
> - that will takeover the main strike role in IAF from older ground attack fighters
> - that offers advanced radars with A2G modes, LDPs, superior EWS that enable the fighter to enter the an airspace with a dense SAM threat and is able to fulfill the strike attack in the first pass over
> - that offers highly capable direct attack and standoff weapons, for deep penetration strike missions, but not neccesarily dedicated SEAD weapons
> - that still offers the high maneuverability that IAF requires from their fighters in the A2A role
> - that can offer a maritime attack capability for the future (this is also important in regard to the IN MMRCA competition)
> 
> 
> So the question must be, which fighter suits Indian forces at best, under these requirements?



Only one Aircraft satisfies all the above requirement and that is Rafale 
Let me explain how,

01.It has RCS OF 2sqm , which is second lowest among mmrca fighters after Typhoon which has RCS less than 1 , Gripen too has RCS of 1 Sqm but it is 50% smaller than Rafale and carries far less Payload and Fuel

02.Payload of 9000 Kg and 14 Hardpoints which is Highest among mmrca competition

03.Range of 4000 Km which also highest among mmrca fighters

04.Best Electronic Warfare suite ie SPECTRA on offer , which is better than anything which the competitor can throw

05.Only non american aircraft to field AESA radar in 2011

06.Not as Manuverable as Typhoon and Mig35 but still pretty good

07.French are offering all the weapons at there disposal , They are also willing to offer 120 Scalp / Storm Shadow Cruise Missiles as part of Weapons Package , which the Typhoon is also Doing

08.Overall Second best A2G fighter in the competition to F/A18 , but it comes with higher TOT , no strings attached also it is better than F/A18 in A2A role

09. Topspeed is only 1.8 Mach which is slow compared to Mig35 which offers 2.35 Mach , however it has a cruise speed of 0.92 Mach which is quite good

10. French are the only ones who have formally confirmed there aircraft to be ready for Nuke delivery , others except Russia will oppose using there fighter for delivering Strategic weapons

11. While suppression of enemy air defence will mainly be carried out by Su30MKI , but Rafale can be used to put enemy airfields out of commission through Scalp cruise missiles


----------



## kingdurgaking

Archie said:


> Only one Aircraft satisfies all the above requirement and that is Rafale
> Let me explain how,
> 
> 01.It has RCS OF 2sqm , which is second lowest among mmrca fighters after Typhoon which has RCS less than 1 , Gripen too has RCS of 1 Sqm but it is 50% smaller than Rafale and carries far less Payload and Fuel
> 
> 02.Payload of 9000 Kg and 14 Hardpoints which is Highest among mmrca competition
> 
> 03.Range of 4000 Km which also highest among mmrca fighters
> 
> 04.Best Electronic Warfare suite ie SPECTRA on offer , which is better than anything which the competitor can throw
> 
> 05.Only non american aircraft to field AESA radar in 2011
> 
> 06.Not as Manuverable as Typhoon and Mig35 but still pretty good
> 
> 07.French are offering all the weapons at there disposal , They are also willing to offer 120 Scalp / Storm Shadow Cruise Missiles as part of Weapons Package , which the Typhoon is also Doing
> 
> 08.Overall Second best A2G fighter in the competition to F/A18 , but it comes with higher TOT , no strings attached also it is better than F/A18 in A2A role
> 
> 09. Topspeed is only 1.8 Mach which is slow compared to Mig35 which offers 2.35 Mach , however it has a cruise speed of 0.92 Mach which is quite good
> 
> 10. French are the only ones who have formally confirmed there aircraft to be ready for Nuke delivery , others except Russia will oppose using there fighter for delivering Strategic weapons
> 
> 11. While suppression of enemy air defence will mainly be carried out by Su30MKI , but Rafale can be used to put enemy airfields out of commission through Scalp cruise missiles





Everything is good.. but Rafale has a serious draw back in WVR... how good is it compared to Griphen or EFT?... If Griphen brings out a good range with some kind of CFT along with good weapons store.. then it is one of the best option... considering the cost...


----------



## the rafter

*Battle royale for India's MMRCA crown*
By Greg Waldron

An air show on the scale of next week's Aero India is bound to throw up surprises, but one certainty is a massive push by the six contenders in India's pivotal medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) competition.
Delegations from Boeing, Dassault, Eurofighter, Lockheed Martin, RSK MiG and Saab will number in the dozens, if not hundreds, and no expense will be spared on chalets, booths, flight simulators and pricey flight demonstrations.
It is hard to overstate the importance of the $10 billion MMRCA competition. With an order of 126 fighters on the cards, and likely follow-on orders, the winning programme could see its life extended well into the next decade. As for the losers, most will end their production runs in the middle of the decade as the world's major air forces enter the era of the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II.





Lockheed Martin's F-16IN Super Viper has set its sights on India's MMRCA contest
The contenders are diverse. US airframer Boeing is offering its F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, and arch-rival Lockheed Martin the F-16IN Super Viper - essentially an F-16 Block 60. Sweden's Saab has the Gripen IN, Dassault is seeking its first foreign order for the Rafale, Eurofighter is pitching the Typhoon, and Russia is offering the RSK MiG-35.
Indian prime minister Manmohan Singh's recent appointment diary underlines the stakes. Foreign leaders including UK prime minister David Cameron, French president Nicholas Sarkozy, Russian president Dmitry Medvedev and US president Barack Obama have all trooped to New Delhi recently, intent on building business and defence ties with the subcontinental superpower.
No winner will be announced at the show, however - a shortlist is due to be drawn up in April or May, although some reports suggest this could be delayed until later in the year.
"All the technical evaluations are done," says an industry source. "The next stage will be a downselect some time after the Aero India show. This will determine which aircraft go into contract negotiations."
An already tight and fiercely fought competition could get even messier, however. Another source says there is no fixed number of aircraft for the downselect, and that all six aircraft types could, in theory, advance to the contract negotiation stage. "After Aero India, they will open the commercial envelopes and see who is cheapest," says one executive involved in the competition.
TESTING DEMANDS
The evaluation process has been long and arduous. An initial tender stipulated 660 requirements, and the first proposals issued by the airframers ran to 5,000-6,000 pages each. Comprehensive field tests of each aircraft were then undertaken, including flying the aircraft - borrowed from various air forces - to India at the manufacturers' expense.
There they were subjected to batteries of tests reflecting India's varied geography of tropical, desert and mountainous regions. Tests took place at Bangalore (a tropical region), Jaisalmer (desert) and the Himalayan air base of Leh, said to be the highest operational air base in the world.
"We spent quite a lot on the tests with no guarantee of a sale," says another executive involved in the race. "That said, the air force got a very good impression of all the aircraft."





As with any competition on such a scale, the merits of aircraft alone will not determine the winner. Politics will play a part, and that could hurt Boeing and Lockheed.
India's defence ties with the USA are improving rapidly. Long gone are the Cold War days of frosty relations between the two nations, or the chilly ties after India's nuclear tests in 1998. In response to India's help in the war on terror, the then-US president George Bush lifted sanctions in the mid-2000s. In 2008, India purchased six C-130J Hercules aircraft from Lockheed and is considering six more. It has also signed up for eight Boeing P-8I Poseidons and has committed to ordering 10 C-17 strategic transports.
But although impressive in themselves, these orders are small compared with the MMRCA contract. In addition, India's military has not forgotten the sanctions Washington imposed after the 1998 nuclear tests.
One former member of the Indian navy was a junior officer and helicopter pilot at the time of the sanctions. "The US sanctions made a strong impression on us," he says. "They penetrated very deeply. At that time, we had sent some helicopter gearboxes to the UK for repair, but these repairs ceased with the sanctions, and it hurt our operational readiness."
"Operational sovereignty" is a phrase often heard among Indian defence pundits. Although the USA and India have reportedly agreed on the language of an end-use agreement, India has yet to sign the Communications Interoperability and Security Memorandum of Agreement (CISMOA). In theory, this could see key technologies excluded from any F-16 or F/A-18 purchase.
RELATIONSHIP DYNAMICS
Teal Group analyst Joel Johnson says: "If the Indians want access to top-level US weapons systems, and given that the USA wants to deepen its defence relationship with India, then an agreement will be reached that satisfies US security concerns and lets India save face. The CISMOA could well get another name, but it will in fact be a CISMOA."
Also, many commentators say that although the US vendors make much of interoperability, some Indians see it as an impingement on sovereignty.
"India has its own systems and is proud of them," says one industry source close to the race. "The country is unique, and templates that apply elsewhere simply don't apply there." The source points out that India initiated the Non-Aligned Movement of nations in 1954. "India prides its sovereignty," he adds.
Indeed, Eurofighter and Saab executives stress the operational independence they feel their respective products offer.
On the other hand, both US aircraft have performed well in combat. In terms of joint exercises and training, Indian air force pilots will have the most opportunity to train with pilots from the US Navy, which operates F/A-18s from aircraft carriers that are often on station in the Arabian Sea.
As Teal Group analyst Richard Aboulafia points out, the Super Hornet comes with the Raytheon APG-79 active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar. Although other aircraft being pitched have AESA radars, the APG-79 is used by the US Navy, providing an excellent long-term upgrade programme.
Of all the contenders, the MiG-35, essentially an updated MiG-29, is seen as the outsider. Although India has been a long-time buyer of Russian arms, it is now inducting a large fleet of Sukhoi Su-30MKIs in the heavy fighter category. State-owned Hindustan Aeronautics has built about 100 of a total order of 180 Su-30s, and expects a deal for 42 more.
India also bought 40 Su-30s from Russia as flyaways in 2010. Over-reliance on Russian aircraft hurt the Indian air force's operational readiness in the early 1990s when the Soviet Union collapsed, choking vital spares for India's vast fleet of MiGs.
Apart from aircraft performance capabilities, another crucial element in the MMRCA competition is the offset package. Typically, India seeks offsets of 30% for defence programmes, but for high-value programmes such as this, the figure is 50% as India targets job creation and technology transfer. Only 18 aircraft will come as flyaways, with the remaining 108 produced by HAL.
HAL chairman Ashok Nayak says development of the production capacity required to produce the eventual MMRCA winner is already under way.
"We will have to set up new infrastructure for this," he says. "It will not happen in one of our existing factories, but hopefully will still be in Bangalore." He estimates Hindustan Aeronautics alone will employ 3,500 workers to produce the MMRCA, and it will take about three years to set up the facility.
Hinting at frustration, several MMRCA contenders say the rules governing offsets in India are something of a moving target. Offset rules continue to evolve, mainly because of changing and evolving technologies. Technology transfer is, of course, a critical aspect of the MMRCA competition. One peculiarity, say some race contenders, is that the offsets apply only to the defence sector, rather than the broader aerospace industry.
NEW TO OFFSETS
"They are very new to offsets," says one industry source, who tells the story of one Indian defence specialist relishing the idea of $30 billion in MMRCA offsets. "I reminded him that there will be only $5 billion in offsets, as there can be only one winner. Some of them see the offsets as free money."
Naturally enough, the various suppliers are reluctant to discuss intricate details of their bids, although all insist they comply with India's offset requirements. India's defence ministry is also tight-lipped on how the different aircraft and their offset packages are faring at the evaluation stage. Whatever India's final decision is, the aviation world is unlikely to see a repeat of the two-decade procurement saga of India's BAE Systems Hawk.
Vivek Lall, Boeing's country head for defence, space and security, says the P-8I deal took just two and a half years from India's request for proposals to a decision to purchase the aircraft. "There is a paradigm shift here in terms of embracing technology, and what the world has to offer," says Lall.
Conversations at Aero India 2011 will, inevitably, turn to the MMRCA battle, the biggest jet fighter export deal in history. A heady mix of fighter performance, weapons, technology, offsets, politics and luck will decide which aircraft move on to the next round. All this in a fervid Indian media environment, with reporters desperate to generate "scoops" about the competition.

THE CONTENDERS:
*Lockheed Martin F-16IN Super Viper*
Essentially an F-16 Block 60, the F-16IN is one of two single-engined aircraft in the competition. Powered by the General Electric F110-132A, the F-16IN has a Northrop Grumman APG-80 AESA radar. Lockheed Martin makes much of its combat record: more than 100,000 missions flown, and a 72-0 record in air-to-air victories.
Given that more than 4,000 units have been built, ramping up production would not be a problem - 928 F-16s have been produced by licence partners. F-16 variants are also flown by India's arch rival, Pakistan.

*Dassault Rafale*
The Rafale has yet to win orders outside France, but its single-engined predecessor, the Mirage 2000, reportedly performed well for India in the high-altitude Kargil conflict with Pakistan in 1999. In French service the Rafale has been successful in Afghanistan.

*Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet*
In late October, Boeing said it was optimistic of making the MMRCA shortlist. One possible point in the Super Hornet's favour is its General Electric F414 engine, which will also power the indigenously developed Mk II version of India's Tejas light combat aircraft.
Boeing has offered India its Super Hornet International Road Map, which includes conformal fuel tanks, an enclosed weapons pod and other systems.

*Saab Gripen IN*
The Gripen IN is essentially the Gripen NG, a successor to the Gripen C/D used by the air forces of Sweden, the Czech Republic, Hungary and South Africa.
As with the Super Hornet, the Gripen IN will use a GE F414, potentially creating synergies with the Tejas Mk II. Interestingly, the original Gripen was designed to operate from roads with basic logistics support, under the assumption that in an invasion by a "larger neighbour", the Swedish air force would not have access to airfields.
Saab plays up the affordability of single-engined fighters, its complete openness to technology transfer, and Sweden's practical, common-sense design traditions.

*Eurofighter Typhoon*
"Enthusiastic support" for the Indian government's 50% offset target and technology transfer ambitions are a cornerstone of the Eurofighter bid, says consortium member BAE Systems.
Eurofighter touts the Typhoon's "swing-role" capabilities, which enable the aircraft to perform simultaneous air-to-air and air-to-surface missions. It is also actively wooing India as a full partner in the programme. With that status, India would take a share of future Typhoon sales.

*RSK MiG-35*
Formerly known as the MiG-29OVT, the MiG-35 is touted as a generation 4++ multirole fighter. It can carry a weapons load on nine external stations and is also configurable for use as a tanker.
"Upon customer request, the fighters can be equipped with all-aspect thrust-vectored RD-33MK engines, ensuring superiority in a manoeuvring dogfight," says RSK.
India has been a long-time buyer of Russian aircraft. Many observers see the MiG-35 as an outsider because the Indian air force already operates a number of Russian types, including the Sukhoi Su-30MKI at the heavy end of the fighter spectrum.
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2011/01/31/352411/battle-royale-for-indias-mmrca-crown.html


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## sudhir007

The Times of India on Mobile

Defence minister A K Antony on Monday said "nothing sensitive was compromised'' by the mishandling of a "secret'' file connected to the $10.4 billion project to acquire 126 new fighters. Consequently, the procurement process for the 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) will now go ahead with full steam.

"We have received the MoD report. All the agencies, including IAF, have reported nothing was compromised. So, hereafter the MMRCA acquisition process will again start,'' said Antony.

The long-drawn acquisition process, which has already seen extensive negotiations and IAF submitting its technical evaluation report after conducting gruelling field trials of the six foreign fighters in contention over the last two years, had come under a cloud after the secret file went missing and was then found by a roadside last month.

The file, mishandled by two IAS officers of MoD, dealt with offsets proposals submitted by the six global aviation majors. The MMRCA contract specifies an obligation of 50% offsets, under which the foreign aviation major who is finally selected will be required to plough half of the contract forex value back into India.

Antony, on his part, had asked IAF, directorate general (acquisitions) and the department of defence production to find out if the missing file episode had in any way "vitiated'' the procurement process.

Asked about the project's current status, Antony said, "It will take some time. Who will get the deal, I can't say now. The process has started again after the inquiry report was submitted and it will take a few more months.''

The fighters in contention are the American F/A-18 `Super Hornet' (Boeing) and F-16 `Falcon' (Lockheed Martin), Russian MiG-35 (RAC MiG), Swedish Gripen (Saab), French Rafale (Dassault) and Eurofighter Typhoon (consortium of British, German, Spanish and Italian companies).


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## Mani2020

sudhir007 said:


> The Times of India on Mobile
> 
> Defence minister A K Antony on Monday said "nothing sensitive was compromised'' by the mishandling of a "secret'' file connected to the $10.4 billion project to acquire 126 new fighters. Consequently, the procurement process for the 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) will now go ahead with full steam.
> 
> "We have received the MoD report. All the agencies, including IAF, have reported nothing was compromised. So, hereafter the MMRCA acquisition process will again start,'' said Antony.
> 
> The long-drawn acquisition process, which has already seen extensive negotiations and IAF submitting its technical evaluation report after conducting gruelling field trials of the six foreign fighters in contention over the last two years, had come under a cloud after the secret file went missing and was then found by a roadside last month.
> 
> The file, mishandled by two IAS officers of MoD, dealt with offsets proposals submitted by the six global aviation majors. The MMRCA contract specifies an obligation of 50% offsets, under which the foreign aviation major who is finally selected will be required to plough half of the contract forex value back into India.
> 
> Antony, on his part, had asked IAF, directorate general (acquisitions) and the department of defence production to find out if the missing file episode had in any way "vitiated'' the procurement process.
> 
> Asked about the project's current status, Antony said, "It will take some time. Who will get the deal, I can't say now. The process has started again after the inquiry report was submitted and it will take a few more months.''
> 
> The fighters in contention are the American F/A-18 `Super Hornet' (Boeing) and F-16 `Falcon' (Lockheed Martin), Russian MiG-35 (RAC MiG), Swedish Gripen (Saab), French Rafale (Dassault) and Eurofighter Typhoon (consortium of British, German, Spanish and Italian companies).




For how long we are hearing these reports ,aren't we? mean everyday a new report comes out and then the deal again goes under shadows.

Its a waiting game being played with you guys lol


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## rockstarIN

Mani2020 said:


> For how long we are hearing these reports ,aren't we? mean everyday a new report comes out and then the deal again goes under shadows.
> 
> Its a waiting game being played with you guys lol



In fact, we are playing the game with them.. lol


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## Mani2020

rockstar said:


> In fact, we are playing the game with them.. lol



in more appropriate words IAF is playing long waiting game with you public as well as competitors of MRCA


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## anniyan

Rafale will be the clear winner in MMRCA contest as it fits india's needs.....No strings attached....v gonna have a stealth air superiority FGFA + Upgraded SU 30 MKI for air defence...so v need an intermediate fighter aircraft.....

Simple buy rafale..customize it to Rafale MKI...sexy aircraft


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## GORKHALI

anniyan said:


> Rafale will be the clear winner in MMRCA contest as it fits india's needs.....No strings attached....v gonna have a stealth air superiority FGFA + Upgraded SU 30 MKI for air defence...so v need an intermediate fighter aircraft.....
> 
> Simple buy rafale..customize it to Rafale MKI...sexy aircraft



You Mean this ?? 





Or this ?

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## sancho

Archie said:


> Only one Aircraft satisfies all the above requirement and that is Rafale



Exactly and that's getting even more obvious after reading that analysis! 




kingdurgaking said:


> Everything is good.. but Rafale has a serious draw back in WVR... how good is it compared to Griphen or EFT?...



The only problem of Rafale in WVR, is the lack of HMS so far, but when it comes to aerodynamic performance, it belongs to the best in the competition!

From the carnegie report:



> The best aircraft for the air-to-air role (or at least for the energetic maneuvering required for close-in aerial combat) are
> characterized by *high thrust-to-weight* performance and *low wing loading* (the ratio of gross weight-to-wing surface area).




*TWR* (AB thrust / empty weight + full internal fuel):

1. EF - 1.15
2. Rafale - 1.08
3. Gripen NG - 0.96
4. F18SH - 0.93


*Wing loading*:

1. Rafale - 299 Kg/m2
2. EF - 317 Kg/m2
3. Gripen NG - 341 Kg/m2
4. F18SH - 451Kg/m2


Also check these older charts about turn rates and acceleration from the Eurofighter website, that shows that the Rafale is very close in these fields as well:

Eurofighter: Acceleration


Not to mention all the US pilots that did dogfights against the Rafale and was very impressed of it:

*F22 pilot*


> Lt Col Lansing Pilch, commander of the 27th, and of the F-22 deployment to Al Dhafra, was categoric in stating his view of the Raptors performance during the exercise. He confirmed that the six Raptors flew undefeated, against all opponents. Pilch said: In every test we did, the Raptors just blew the competition out of the water. He did praise the Rafale, however. It is a good aircraft, combining avionics with manoeuvrability. I was impressed - its on a par with the USAFs F-15s and F-16s, at least.




*F18SH pilot*


> A USN pilot's (Lt Mike Tremel, pilot of VFA-31 "Tomcatters") comments for Rafale M:
> 
> "A highly maneuverable fighter with an incredible capacity to point its nose in every direction in the sky."




*F16 B42 pilot*


> Rafale is a much more aggressive aircraft than the F16 and that it has some unique capabilities.




*Chilean General who engaged Rafale during Cruzex V in one of their F16 B50s*



> General MacNamara, chief of the Chilean detachment. "We have been beaten during a simulated air combat, while this is the strongpoint of our aircraft. It was impressive.




EF was designed to be an air superiority fighter and it is known to be excellent in this field, but people often mistake the better multi role capabilities of Rafale, with beeing inferior in A2A, which is not the case like exercises against the EF showed as well. 
Rafale offers exactly what we need, a versatile multi role fighter with a balanced A2A and A2G performance between MKI and LCA.

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## luckyyy

sancho said:


> Exactly and that's getting even more obvious after reading that analysis!
> 
> The only problem of Rafale in WVR, is the lack of HMS so far, but *when it comes to aerodynamic performance, it belongs to the best in the competition!*
> .



put it infront of MIG-35...

also the carnegie report didn't consider mig-35, was that delibrate ...


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## GareebNawaz

Can anyone thouroghly exlpain to me why IAF is preferring EF rather than SH?


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## satishkumarcsc

GareebNawaz said:


> Can anyone thouroghly exlpain to me why IAF is preferring EF rather than SH?



Nah!...its just the media..the IAF just wants to select something and get over with it.


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## GareebNawaz

Is something lacking in the SH that makes IAF not want it? I mean by facts SH is more reliable, capable, and overall better aircraft than EF. And i seriously doubt the yanks will sanction us again. ToT should not be concerned because IAF does not expect 100% ToT from any contender. Just enough so that we get experience and so that the offset match our needs. GE F414 will be perfect fot Mk 2 tejas. SH can do more than just replace our mig-27s and JAGUARS. If needed we couls turn few of them into air superiority fighters. Su-30MKI+ F/A-18 e/f will insure that any threat from j-10, j-11, F-16 will be dealt with.


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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> EF was designed to be an air superiority fighter and it is known to be excellent in this field, but people often mistake the better multi role capabilities of Rafale, with beeing inferior in A2A, which is not the case like exercises against the EF showed as well.
> Rafale offers exactly what we need, a versatile multi role fighter with a balanced A2A and A2G performance between MKI and LCA.



Oke i have a simple question.. which is tough? A fighter with A2A or A2G ?.... I guess being a air superiority is very vital... if we attain air superiority then A2G can be taken care with EW-POD or LITENING targeting pod ... Yeah it takes off one precious hard point... As far SAM or SEAD operation .. i am not sure MMRCA will be employed into that role... because MKI will do the job better.... with MKI capable of doing all the roles effectively .... i dont think we need an MMRCA ... it currently lacks some good thrust and an AESA... not sure what is there in super upgrade.... but the current upgrade is making it all rounder....

Novotar , Brahmos , Kh, Astra, Nirbhay .. name a weapon type it can be loaded on MKI... 

with MKI in good numbers and need for projecting MMRCA ... i think we should go for less cost effective solution ... May be NG or Mig - 35 .. i think that will be able to do defend the enemies effectively... as airforce havent rejected any player so far... may be try NG with full ToT .... 


this MMRCA drama has become like a soap serial... dont know whether they will finish this year ... MoD select one god damn aircraft...


b.t.w please explaing wing loading?? is it the load w.r.t to hard point?


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## sancho

luckyyy said:


> put it infront of MIG-35...
> 
> also the carnegie report didn't consider mig-35, was that delibrate ...



I took only those fighters that really has a chance to win this competition. It does, page 79 onwards however, I don't pay too much attention on the analysis of the fighters, because that part of the report is not very accurate. When you compare the part of the operational requirements, it's should be obvious why where the Mig does not fit.




GareebNawaz said:


> Is something lacking in the SH that makes IAF not want it? I mean by facts SH is more reliable, capable, and overall better aircraft than EF. And i seriously doubt the yanks will sanction us again. ToT should not be concerned because IAF does not expect 100% ToT from any contender. Just enough so that we get experience and so that the offset match our needs. GE F414 will be perfect fot Mk 2 tejas. SH can do more than just replace our mig-27s and JAGUARS. If needed we couls turn few of them into air superiority fighters. Su-30MKI+ F/A-18 e/f will insure that any threat from j-10, j-11, F-16 will be dealt with.




There is no official report about a preference of IAF, however in A2A the EF is clearly superior to the F18SH and offers higher ToT and even a partnership. In the A2G area instead, the SH is clearly superior again. Both are exactly on the opposite sites in terms of capabilities, while Rafale fits perfectly in between.


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## sancho

kingdurgaking said:


> Oke i have a simple question.. which is tough? A fighter with A2A or A2G ?



Not sure what exactly you mean by that? 

Please try to understand that's it's not the unit costs that counts in this competitions, but the cheapest costs for the most suited fighter, the most beneficial ToT, as much offsets and strategic, or political advantages. Both, the Mig and the Gripen are not the right choices here, but at least the latter might have some chances to be shortlisted though. 




kingdurgaking said:


> b.t.w please explaing wing loading?? is it the load w.r.t to hard point?





> In aerodynamics, wing loading is the loaded weight of the aircraft divided by the area of the wing.[1] The faster an aircraft flies, the more lift is produced by each unit area of wing, so a smaller wing can carry the same weight in level flight, operating at a higher wing loading. Correspondingly, the landing and take-off speeds will be higher. The high wing loading also decreases maneuverability...



Wing loading - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Dash

kingdurgaking said:


> Oke i have a simple question.. which is tough? A fighter with A2A or A2G ?....



To understand that we have to have to get to mission requirements. Aircraft fight in formations. In a deep strike role airsuperiority aircrafts and accompanied by ground attack aircrafts.

While the airsuperiority fighters will defend the ground attack aircrafts from enemey fighters, and ground attack will bomb the targets.

Both are equally important, but again it depends on mission requirements.

However some aircrafts are good in airsuperiority and some in ground attack. So means to say they are not versatile. As of now EF/F-18 are not a very versatile aircraft. 

So for one mission you have to send two different aircrafts. This is a challenge too.


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## dbc

The are some here that have a juvenile fascination with TWR (thrust to weight ratio) and make repeated erroneous claims and assumption based on just one measure. 

Four forces act upon an aircraft in flight these are:
1. Lift
2. Weight
3. Thrust
4. Drag

Depending on an aircraft's orientation in flight relative to ground these forces interact to influence the aircraft&#8217;s aerodynamic efficiency. Under cruise conditions or straight level flight the lift produced by the wing is equal to weight and thrust is equal to drag. Simplified, this mean that the weight of the aircraft has little influence on the aircrafts ability to accelerate. Acceleration then largely depends on the engine generating enough thrust to overcome drag. 









> Because lift and drag are both aerodynamic forces, the ratio of lift to drag is an indication of the aerodynamic efficiency of the airplane. Aerodynamicists call the lift to drag ratio the L/D ratio, pronounced "L over D ratio." An airplane has a high L/D ratio if it produces a large amount of lift or a small amount of drag. Under cruise conditions lift is equal to weight. A high lift aircraft can carry a large payload. Under cruise conditions thrust is equal to drag.* A low drag aircraft requires low thrust. Thrust is produced by burning a fuel and a low thrust aircraft requires small amounts of fuel be burned*. As discussed on the maximum flight time page, low fuel usage allows an aircraft to stay aloft for a long time, and that means the aircraft can fly long range missions. So an aircraft with a high L/D ratio can carry a large payload, for a long time, over a long distance. For glider aircraft with no engines, a high L/D ratio again produces a long range aircraft by reducing the steady state glide angle at which the glider descends.



This is why the L over D ratio (lift over drag) is a better measure of an aircraft&#8217;s aerodynamic efficiency than thrust to weight ratio, thrust to weight ratio (TWR ) greater than ONE implies the aircraft is able to overcome gravity in a vertical climb perpendicular to ground. Of course, any aircraft that attempts to go vertical at zero air speed will end up on the ground a$$ first, the aircraft will likely need the TWR of a rocket typically 100 times its own weight to perform such a fete.

L/D Ratio

The F/A-18 E/F has the best L/D ratio of all the aircrafts in US inventory it even surpasses the F-22 Raptor. Does this exceptional L/D score make the F/A-18 E/F the king of the hill? No! but *the folks that are fixated on thrust to weight ratio and make claims of superior aerodynamic performance based on TWR >1 have no understanding of the basic principles of flight.*

Here is video showing some of the substantial contribution that NASA has made to the F/A-18 program. When approached to help with a wing stall problem NASA came up with an ingenious solution - the Active Aeroelastic Wing (AAW). The AAW wing not only reduces aerodynamic drag but it substantial increase control authority through the flight envelope.

ASTT Annual Progress Report


> The Navy asked an independent group of experts to review efforts to resolve the F/A-18E/F wing drop problem. Based on the group's recommendations, Langley has proposed a project intended to rectify this national shortcoming in understanding, predicting, and alleviating the abrupt wing stall at transonic maneuver conditions. This research will be applicable to the F/A-18E/F configuration, as well as to other high-performance military aircraft concepts.
> 
> 
> 
> *A solution to the "wing drop" phenomenon permitted the Navy to authorize a low-rate initial production of the F/A-18 E/F aircraft*
> 
> 
> *Twisting Wings for Better Performance*
> 
> 
> 
> The F-18 wing was modified (inset) to increase its flexibility for control of the wing shape during flight.
> 
> Dryden's Active Aeroelastic Wing (AAW) program, in cooperation with the U.S. Air Force Research Laboratory at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base in Ohio and Boeing Phantom Works in St. Louis, Missouri, is researching technology that uses active leading-edge and trailing-edge control surfaces to warp an aircraft's wing. A preliminary design of AAW wing modifications and flight control software and hardware have been completed.
> 
> The program's goal is to harness wing deformation to provide large control forces at high speeds. The wing deformation is done by blending structures and flight controls technologies, using traditional aircraft control surfaces such as ailerons and leading-edge flaps.
> 
> The benefits of implementing AAW technologies will be to increase roll control at high speeds and increase wing life by controlling the loads. This will result in a significant reduction in wing structural weight without reducing the wing's strength.
> 
> Dryden's F/A-18 840 will be used as the testbed for demonstrating the AAW technologies. The AAW flight research program will change the design paradigm for wing structures by making wings that are lighter and more aerodynamically efficient. As a result, aircraft designs will change toward configurations with longer, thinner wings and without horizontal tails, dramatically reducing drag and improving maneuvering performance.


YouTube - Time lapsed film of Active Aeroelastic Wing (AAW) Wing Loads Test

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## kingdurgaking

Dash said:


> So for one mission you have to send two different aircrafts. This is a challenge too.



I guess that is far more better that having one aircraft which is jack of all trades... During war it wont be efficiency that matters.. but to succeed the mission at any cost... other wise the loss in the mission is going to be multiple times more worst than mission cost... If you have master in the specific area it is always an advantage... 

As far Kargil this is how we have fought.. I believe dividing the work will be more better than burdening a single one... i believe that is how it is still exist in all superpower inventory.. (e.g.) F-22 control the sky and F-35 take over latter..


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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> Not sure what exactly you mean by that?



A just casual question.. Taking an air target is tough or moving ground targets?... i guess air target is more tough... So attaining Air superiority is the most vital part... For ground attacks we have bigger bombs and nuclear payloads ... so ground attacks is of easy as per my understanding...



> Please try to understand that's it's not the unit costs that counts in this competitions, but the cheapest costs for the most suited fighter, the most beneficial ToT, as much offsets and strategic, or political advantages. Both, the Mig and the Gripen are not the right choices here, but at least the latter might have some chances to be shortlisted though.



Mig is fine.. but i am suprised by NG ... though NG is yet to be developed.. but it solves all the above cost...In fact they are giving 100% ToT ... so only place it lacks is the manufacturing the components... we might even set up our industry in future and will produce those components.. so the remaining thing pending is Engine... if Kaveri-eco is ready then that problem is also solved because it follows the design of GE...

Yeah accepted it is not developed.. but it is the new fighter compared to others and cost less then others... Operation cost is also less.. There are news which states that we can customize any weapon according to our needs.. which no one except Mig provides.. because weapons are equally or more important than the fighter.. 

Though i am not a NG supporter.. but seeing lot of twin engine fighters coming on board like AMCA, FGFA and we are retiring Mig 27 i think we should go for Single engine one because in peace time this will add more value to the inventory... Yes during war time they are more deadly with there weapons ...... dont you think NG make sense here for MMRCA.... If NG comes with conformal tanks and a good AESA (if Israel where there ) forget it that would have been IAF choice .. that is why US pressurized Israel


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## luckyyy

sancho said:


> I took only those fighters that really has a chance to win this competition. It does, page 79 onwards however, I don't pay too much attention on the analysis of the fighters, because that part of the report is not very accurate. When you compare the part of the operational requirements, it's should be obvious why where the Mig does not fit.
> .



does these amarican/western ever appreciated russian systems...never.

but on the other hand , they always found making their new system to compite with the russian's...

it's only b/w advertisment and reality when comes to campare the two...

and if MoD decided to buy mig-35 , all of these people will cameup to say only that india buys russian coz it was cheap...

isn't that funny..

i am not a fan of mig-35 , but all i like is to see/read a fair camparision without baised ..


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## luckyyy

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> The F/A-18 E/F has the best L/D ratio of all the aircrafts in US inventory it even surpasses the F-22 Raptor. Does this exceptional L/D score make the F/A-18 E/F the king of the hill? No! but *the folks that are fixated on thrust to weight ratio and make claims of superior aerodynamic performance based on TWR >1 have no understanding of the basic principles of flight.*
> 
> Here is video showing some of the substantial contribution that NASA has made to the F/A-18 program. When approached to help with a wing stall problem NASA came up with an ingenious solution - the Active Aeroelastic Wing (AAW). The AAW wing not only reduces aerodynamic drag but it substantial increase control authority through the flight envelope.



it don't matte what F-18/16 are capable of , but what has been offered..

*Sources said the modified bids would allow the U.S. jets to offer better radar range and electronic-warfare performance. U.S. contractors are prohibited from promising any more capabilities than what the government allows them to release.

Indian officials, however, realize U.S. systems have greater capabilities than what is being officially offered, and want the bar raised. 
in contrast, European MMRCA competitors have pledged to fully share their technologies with Indian industry*
U.S. May Sweeten Indian Jet Bid - Defense News


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## luckyyy

kingdurgaking said:


> Mig is fine.. but i am suprised by NG ... though NG is yet to be developed.. but it solves all the above cost...In fact they are giving 100% ToT ... so only place it lacks is the manufacturing the components... we might even set up our industry in future and will produce those components.. so the remaining thing pending is Engine... if Kaveri-eco is ready then that problem is also solved because it follows the design of GE...
> 
> Yeah accepted it is not developed.. but it is the new fighter compared to others and cost less then others... Operation cost is also less.. There are news which states that we can customize any weapon according to our needs.. which no one except Mig provides.. because weapons are equally or more important than the fighter..
> 
> Though i am not a NG supporter.. but seeing lot of twin engine fighters coming on board like AMCA, FGFA and we are retiring Mig 27 i think we should go for Single engine one because in peace time this will add more value to the inventory... Yes during war time they are more deadly with there weapons ...... dont you think NG make sense here for MMRCA.... If NG comes with conformal tanks and a good AESA (if Israel where there ) forget it that would have been IAF choice .. that is why US pressurized Israel



considerig the fact the next 4-5 years , DRDO will be developing a new engine and AESA radar in JV , Gripen looks good , 
but the problum is , what next..?
i mean does SAAB has the capabilities to keep upgrading the systems to meet new chalanges as developing such new tech would requied a huge investment ......


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## kingdurgaking

luckyyy said:


> considerig the fact the next 4-5 years , DRDO will be developing a new engine and AESA radar in JV , Gripen looks good ,
> but the problum is , what next..?
> i mean does SAAB has the capabilities to keep upgrading the systems to meet new chalanges as developing such new tech would requied a huge investment ......



If we get 100% ToT, is it not possible for us to do the upgradation with the help of SAAB?... If we assume what is "next" ? every European contenders will face the same problem ... because the next technology they have to opt for is stealth while the current technology like IRST,AESA, FBL, changes to EW and engines are the major one where they can work... and which European has the capability right now or in another decade or two will work futuristic technologies or stealth?... So only hope is US.... else we should be take over.... hopefully our economy performs the same way for next 2 decades.... 

i seriously doubt dassault capabilities after Rafael ... It will take more than 1/2 a century for them to come up with a new aircraft.. and i seriously doubt they will be able to do any major upgrades after F3 ... may be one or 2 upgrades like engine,AESA improvement and EW and that will be end of the program until they find a good customer... any customization will have the same fate as UAE....


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## sancho

kingdurgaking said:


> A just casual question.. Taking an air target is tough or moving ground targets?... i guess air target is more tough... So attaining Air superiority is the most vital part... For ground attacks we have bigger bombs and nuclear payloads ... so ground attacks is of easy as per my understanding...




IC, now I get it, but that depends on the situation I would say as well on the capabilities of the fighter. For example, we already have a good ammount of air superiority over PAF, because of more capable fighters in higher numbers, but can we do a preemptive strikes? No, because our ground attack fighters proved even to be less usfull in such a limited conflict like Kargil. They also have very limited self defense capabilities and always needs escorts, while real multi role fighters can defend themself, even during a strike mission.
In this case the only option would be, like you pointed out, trying to get air superiority first, but even against PAF with increasing capabilities and AWACS support that won't be easy anymore and MMRCAs are meant against PLAAF. We can defend ourselfs against them, but it's doubtful that we would achieve air superiority to safely do strike missions as well and that's the point in MMRCA, when we talk about the operational capabilities. 
MKI will remain the main air superiority fighter and MMRCA needs to serve alongside of it in air defense roles, but more important will be the strike component of them, because that is the field where IAF has the main problems now and needs new capabilities. 




kingdurgaking said:


> dont you think NG make sense here for MMRCA.... If NG comes with conformal tanks and a good AESA (if Israel where there ) forget it that would have been IAF choice .. that is why US pressurized Israel



First of all, it won't get CFTs, because they purposly went with a redesign of the airframe to increase the internal fuel instead of adding CFTs. 
Secondly no it's not a good choice for India, if strikes, ToT, offsets and strategic/political advantages are the keys in MMRCA, because in all these fiellds the Gripen/Saab/Sweden can't offer us what we want.
Gripen is a good fighter and cheap, but that's exactly why we have LCA for, so no need for another similar fighter. Regarding single engine, I often stated that we made a mistake by going for a light single engine fighter like LCA, instead of going for an light to medium single engine fighter like F16/J10. However, that's the reality now and the only comparable single engine fighter in MMRCA is the F16IN and that is obviously not a good choice anymore.




luckyyy said:


> does these amarican/western ever appreciated russian systems...never...
> 
> ...i am not a fan of mig-35 , but all i like is to see/read a fair camparision without baised ..



That's why I told you not to take the analysis of the fighters itself as reliable, the more interesting part are the possible operational requirements and you just need to look at the following part to see that the Mig is not a good choice anymore.



> The operational context in Southern Asia elaborated above suggests that the MMRCA candidate selected by the IAF will have to be *an utterly versatile platform that earns the title of multi-role precisely because that attribute will be at a premium in future subcontinental conflicts*. It must be able to flexibly shift from air combat to ground attack operations during the day, night, or adverse weather because such dexterity will be essential for success in the counterair mission alone. In this context, *the ideal aircraft would be one that possesses a low radar cross-section*, deploys advanced sensors and self-protection suites, *carries a heavy weapons load consisting of both long-range AAMs and diverse precision anti-surface weaponry*, and possesses superior agility, *endurance, and combat effectiveness.* Since the air-to-ground role thus becomes virtually conjoint with the air-to-air requirement where the MMRCA is concerned, the six contenders should be evaluated according to their effectiveness in both missions




The Mig is a designed for A2A and has just some added A2G capabilities, just look at the difference between Mig 29SMT and Mig 35 and you will see that with AESA radar, TVC, more thrust they again added mainly A2A features. They did increased the numbers of weapon station, payload and range too, but in these fields the Mig remains to be one of the least capable in the competition (besides several other issues). That's how the Russians like it (Su 35 and Su 34), but we want multi role fighters in between (MKI, FGFA, MMRCA) and that's why the Mig is not a good choice for IAF anymore.


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## dbc

luckyyy said:


> it don't matte what F-18/16 are capable of , but what has been offered..
> 
> *Sources said the modified bids would allow the U.S. jets to offer better radar range and electronic-warfare performance. U.S. contractors are prohibited from promising any more capabilities than what the government allows them to release.
> 
> Indian officials, however, realize U.S. systems have greater capabilities than what is being officially offered, and want the bar raised.
> in contrast, European MMRCA competitors have pledged to fully share their technologies with Indian industry*
> U.S. May Sweeten Indian Jet Bid - Defense News



If the US government and vendors consider the MMRCA deal strategic enough to make an exceptional offer then we will raise the bar far enough to make the Europeans irrelevant. If this does not happen then we can only assume India isn't important to the US.


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## sancho

*Why the Rafale is the best suiting MMRCA fighter, according to the operational requirements pointed out in the carnegie report (post #3998):*


*So according to the analysis of IAF operational requirements, the wining MMRCA has to be a multi role aircraft, ...

- that is equally good in A2A and A2G roles*


> The aircraft took part in two missions every day. The morning mission was a fairly classic air defense exercise, while the afternoon flight involved around 30 aircraft in a Composite Air Operation (Comao) - an attack against land-based or naval targets.
> In a clear demonstration of the Rafales multi-role capabilities, both aircraft and their crews switched easily from the attack role (simulating the use of AASM missiles) to the air defense role (with Mica missiles).



Rafale tames the tigers


*- that is highly versatile to fulfill a wide range of missions*


> When the RAFALE programme was launched, the Armée de lAir and the Marine Nationale (the French Air Force and the French Navy) published a joint requirement for a balanced multirole aircraft that would be able to replace seven types of combat aircraft then in use.
> 
> The new aircraft would have to be able to carry out an extremely wide range of missions:
> 
> - Air-defence / air-superiority,
> - Reconnaissance,
> - Close air support,
> - Precision strike / interdiction with conventional weapons
> (air-to-ground and anti-ship attacks),
> - Nuclear strikes.
> 
> These needs were taken into account from the start of the RAFALEs development; thus it enabled the engineers, using all the new technologies, to conceive an aircraft which goes beyond the objectives of each mission.
> 
> Versatile and better in everything, the RAFALE is truly effects multiplying.



Omnirole by design


*- that has a low RCS, high maximum speed, long range sensor and weapons, as well as a sophisticated EWS for C-AISR missions*

Except of the high maximum speed (which could be changed with the integration of Kaveri - Snecma engine), Rafale fulfills that all with one of the lowest RCS, long range AESA, IRST, TV and ESM sensors, Damocles and Reco NG pods, METEOR and Scalp, the longest range A2A and A2G weapons in the competition (with Taurus), as well as the SPECTRA EWS


*- that will takeover the main strike role in IAF from older ground attack fighters*

Rafale replaces Jaguars from French forces as well and could form an excellent combo in A2G with the MKI, similar to the Jaguar / Mig 27 combo now. The one low flying, terrain avoiding, deep penetration strikes, the other high speed and altitude long distance strikes.


*- that offers advanced radars with A2G modes, LDPs, superior EWS that enable the fighter to enter the an airspace with a dense SAM threat and is able to fulfill the strike attack in the first pass over*


> The RBE2 air-to-ground modes include: Doppler Beam Sharpening (DBS) mapping; SAR mapping; Fixed Target Track (FTT); Sea Surface Search and Track While Scan; Ground Moving Target Identification and Track (GMTI/T); target acquisition and air-to-ground ranging. Terrain following and avoidance modes can be combined to generate 3-D radar maps, thus enabling full automatic terrain following flights using the radar only.



Avionics Magazine :: Serious Squall



> The Rafale B309 carrying the Damocles LDP and Raffaut triple pylones seen last week at St Dizier air base.
> This configuration will be used in Afghanistan during the next deployment of the French Air Force Rafale in a few month.



Rafale News: Rafale pictures of the day : Damocles and Cruzex V



> The French detachment participated in at least one day strike and one night strike daily, for a period of ten days, confirming the aircrafts complete range of capabilities and its multirole design. Operating in a dense, hostile environment, the aircrafts systems provided pilots with a clear, precise view of the tactical situation. The multi-sensor data fusion system (RBE2 radar, Front Sector Optronic (FSO), Spectra self defense suite, Link 16 datalink) worked perfectly. Thanks to this system, the Rafale amply proved its self-defense capabilities. It experienced no losses due to air defense systems, and was often able to eliminate these threats.



http://www./first-operational-exercise-in-the-united-states-for-rafale-fighter-15885/



> Source DSI n°59 (May 2010) :
> 
> Jean-Louis Promé (the French journalist who once dared to write that Typhoon was superior to Rafale in A2A) has new informations about ATLC and trainings...
> 
> Rafale flew 220 hours in 148 flights. During all the missions, they shot down 61 "enemy" fighters.
> When a single Rafale launched 3 Mica and 6 AASM in 66 seconds, 2 Mica hit their targets, while all the AASM hit.
> There is another missions during which 2 Rafale taking part to a SAR mission have shot down 10 enemy fighters and 6 ground targets without leaving the CAP hippodrome.




*- that offers highly capable direct attack and standoff weapons, for deep penetration strike missions, but not neccesarily dedicated SEAD weapons*

Paveway LGBs, AASM GPS/INS, IR and Laser PGMs (up to 50Km range, CEP 10, or even 1 m), Scalp cruise missile (up to 290Km).


*- that still offers the high maneuverability that IAF requires for the A2A role*

Discussed here:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/1454743-post4008.html


*- that can offer a maritime attack capability for the future (this is also important in regard to the IN MMRCA competition)*

Up to 3 x Exocet missiles, or Scalp cruise missiles, an operational carrier version is available, that is able to do the tanker role as well.


Rafale clearly fulfills all the requirements, offers the advantage of already available logistics, maintenance and supply routes, ease of training, commonality of weapons and techs to upg Mirage 2000, or even some Russian fighters, high availability and reliability, customisations, radar source codes, as well as no restrictions.
Be it IAF, IN, or even SFC, there should be no doubt about which fighter is the obvious choice for our needs!

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## kingdurgaking

> IC, now I get it, but that depends on the situation I would say as well on the capabilities of the fighter. For example, we already have a good ammount of air superiority over PAF, because of more capable fighters in higher numbers, but can we do a preemptive strikes? No, because our ground attack fighters proved even to be less usfull in such a limited conflict like Kargil. They also have very limited self defense capabilities and always needs escorts, while real multi role fighters can defend themself, even during a strike mission.



I am not sure which air craft you are talking about as Air superiority... Is it Mig 29 or MKI... Mig 29 was an air superiority with the upgrade it is becoming a potent Mulit role craft... while MKI is already stamped as the best swing role fighter in our inventory.. and we can see MKI configured for Brahmos and Nirbhay ... which makes it the best option for deep strike penetration ... Can you be little more specific where we lag now on ground attacks?.... we have Mig 27, Jaguar assigned for that task... Mirages do configured for that in the upgrade... while i can see almost all top line air craft are multirole in exception to MKI.. which is a swing role which can target both air and ground assets at the same time... 

i still believe we should have a dedicated Air superiorty fighter because With IAF 29 in air PAF 16 multi role where at bay during kargil.. and bombing was carried by 21's, jaguars and mirages .. even with AWACS and current BVR they will not risk going on combat against IAF all alone...



> In this case the only option would be, like you pointed out, trying to get air superiority first, but even against PAF with increasing capabilities and AWACS support that won't be easy anymore and MMRCAs are meant against PLAAF. We can defend ourselfs against them, but it's doubtful that we would achieve air superiority to safely do strike missions as well and that's the point in MMRCA, when we talk about the operational capabilities.
> MKI will remain the main air superiority fighter and MMRCA needs to serve alongside of it in air defense roles, but more important will be the strike component of them, because that is the field where IAF has the main problems now and needs new capabilities.


Agreed with AWACS across borders getting air superiority is difficult.. but every air force will try for that right??.. They will atleast make sure that enemy's sortie reduces with time... 
Sirjee i am not sure where you got MKI will be deployed only as air superiority?.. MKI came into operation as Air superiority but now it is changed a lot and still has more room for upgradation ..further it is upto the squadron how they get trained.. In Tezpur 2 squad's are deployed.. both for Air superiority and for ground attacks.. as far i am aware that is mainly configured for ground and deep penetration strikes.. with super upgrades in future i am sure MKI will become the precision strike weapon for deep penetration attack aka FGFA the air superiority...



> First of all, it won't get CFTs, because they purposly went with a redesign of the airframe to increase the internal fuel instead of adding CFTs. Secondly no it's not a good choice for India, if strikes, ToT, offsets and strategic/political advantages are the keys in MMRCA, because in all these fiellds the Gripen/Saab/Sweden can't offer us what we want. Gripen is a good fighter and cheap, but that's exactly why we have LCA for, so no need for another similar fighter. Regarding single engine, I often stated that we made a mistake by going for a light single engine fighter like LCA, instead of going for an light to medium single engine fighter like F16/J10. However, that's the reality now and the only comparable single engine fighter in MMRCA is the F16IN and that is obviously not a good choice anymore.



Agreed it wont have CFT and no political clout.... but certainly all good technologies.. it will serve both as a2a and a2g unlike rafael ... but yes with less capability ... as i said earlier.. it is the weapons that will do the damage not the fighter.. with weapons being common platform and option for customization for indian weapons + AESA on being offer... it has all the features IAF has requested... if they give 100% ToT what else do you need??... yes some parts are sourced from US..the critical being engine.. except engine the deisgn of the entire fighter is done by SAAB.. the parts that come from US can be built locally by HAL tomorrow because SAAB gives you the specification and source code to us right...


LCA and griphen cant be compared.. and secondly what make you feel LCA is a mistake?? it is the requirement for IAF to defend our country.. so you mean to say Mig-21 is also a mistake which was part of 2 wars in which we won? To fight and defend the border in the north-east dont you think Griphen is more than enough?? war there wont be escalated as it will be at the fought at the borders only... any day Griphen can match with J-10 & J-11B for sure.. for our border at west... i guess Mig's are more than enough... 

The only thing that is bothering me with Rafael/EFT is price and future upgrades... with EFT things are dim as the nations will be going for unnmanned aircraft.. while with Rafael what is there in future?? any customization will end up having the treatment like UAE(pay from your pocket for customization)... so better go for Griphen.. cheap and we get ToT which is what we need at this point of time.. as far political advantage no one will give a penny to India.. we will have to cross the well on our own..


Any way lets wait for the first filtering who makes to final round..


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## kingdurgaking

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> If the US government and vendors consider the MMRCA deal strategic enough to make an exceptional offer then we will raise the bar far enough to make the Europeans irrelevant. If this does not happen then we can only assume India isn't important to the US.



exactly ..very crisp and right to the point.. but you know India isn't that important to US right now... if Mr.Bush is your president...yeah right now boeing would have bragged the contract for sure a good upgraded 18 would have been negotiated with India along with good ToT


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## the rafter

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> The are some here that have a juvenile fascination with TWR (thrust to weight ratio) and make repeated erroneous claims and assumption based on just one measure.
> 
> Four forces act upon an aircraft in flight these are:
> 1. Lift
> 2. Weight
> 3. Thrust
> 4. Drag
> 
> Depending on an aircraft's orientation in flight relative to ground these forces interact to influence the aircraft&#8217;s aerodynamic efficiency. Under cruise conditions or straight level flight the lift produced by the wing is equal to weight and thrust is equal to drag. Simplified, this mean that the weight of the aircraft has little influence on the aircrafts ability to accelerate. Acceleration then largely depends on the engine generating enough thrust to overcome drag.
> 
> This is why the L over D ratio (lift over drag) is a better measure of an aircraft&#8217;s aerodynamic efficiency than thrust to weight ratio, thrust to weight ratio (TWR ) greater than ONE implies the aircraft is able to overcome gravity in a vertical climb perpendicular to ground. Of course, any aircraft that attempts to go vertical at zero air speed will end up on the ground a$$ first, the aircraft will likely need the TWR of a rocket typically 100 times its own weight to perform such a fete.
> 
> L/D Ratio
> 
> The F/A-18 E/F has the best L/D ratio of all the aircrafts in US inventory it even surpasses the F-22 Raptor. Does this exceptional L/D score make the F/A-18 E/F the king of the hill? No! but *the folks that are fixated on thrust to weight ratio and make claims of superior aerodynamic performance based on TWR >1 have no understanding of the basic principles of flight.*
> 
> Here is video showing some of the substantial contribution that NASA has made to the F/A-18 program. When approached to help with a wing stall problem NASA came up with an ingenious solution - the Active Aeroelastic Wing (AAW). The AAW wing not only reduces aerodynamic drag but it substantial increase control authority through the flight envelope.
> 
> ASTT Annual Progress Report



I had few basic questions regarding the advantages of Super hornets:

1) Does this Active Aeroelastic Wing (AAW) advantage applies when you are maneuvering the aircraft loaded with weapons on the wings? 
2) When the aircraft carrying asymmetrical loads?


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## the rafter

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> If the US government and vendors consider the MMRCA deal strategic enough to make an exceptional offer then we will raise the bar far enough to make the Europeans irrelevant. If this does not happen then we can only assume India isn't important to the US.



Its not that India cares if US thinks it as an ally or not. But US equally needs India to contain China. Which other country in Asia do you think US can use against China?
So MMRCA deal is not going to be a decider to win US friendship, or as you make it sound. India has signed many defense deals with US during Obama visit last year (~10 billions, if not more).


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## dbc

the rafter said:


> I had few basic questions regarding the advantages of Super hornets:
> 
> 1) Does this Active Aeroelastic Wing (AAW) advantage applies when you are maneuvering the aircraft loaded with weapons on the wings?
> 2) When the aircraft carrying asymmetrical loads?



The Active Aeroelastic Wing has not been incorporated into production F/A-18 E/F, this technology will likely debut on Boeing's 6th generation tailless design. 







The point I was trying to make and perhaps I didn't emphasize it was that the F/A 18 has one of the thinnest wing on a production fighter contributing to its exceptional L/D score. F/A-18's thin wings made it an ideal candidate for AAW studies. AAW technology is an option that Boeing can explore in the future if F/A-18 customers wish to expand the aircrafts capability. 



> Over the course of the second phase of flight tests, roll rates adequate for lateral control, or within 15 to 20 percent of that obtained by a production F/A-18, were obtained by use of active control of wing flexibility alone, without use of the differential rolling horizontal tail used by standard F/A-18s at transonic and supersonic speeds.
> 
> Project engineers hope to obtain roll performance at transonic and supersonic speeds close to that of production F/A-18s, without using the aircraft's stabilators (fully moving horizontal tail flight control) and with smaller control surface deflections.



NASA - NASA Dryden Fact Sheet - Active Aeroelastic Wing

The ability to alter wing shape in flight and eliminating the horizontal tail has several benefits, reducing drag, reducing radar cross section and weight are some of the key benefits of incorporating AAW. To answer your question, the design goal was to improve on aerodynamic performance without compromising existing capability so while maneuverability is improved by AAW the ability to fly and fight carrying asymmetric loads remains the same.


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## dbc

the rafter said:


> Its not that India cares if US thinks it as an ally or not. But US equally needs India to contain China. Which other country in Asia do you think US can use against China?
> So MMRCA deal is not going to be a decider to win US friendship, or as you make it sound. India has signed many defense deals with US during Obama visit last year (~10 billions, if not more).



You're reading too much into what I said, when I said "_India isn't important to the US_" I meant India as a market for US military sales.


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## the rafter

*Boeing to unveil stealthier F/A-18 aircraft*
Published: Wednesday, Feb 2, 2011, 19:02 IST 
By Hemanth CS
A mocked up version of Boeing&#8217;s F/A-18 Super Hornet will be among the many metal birds to debut at the upcoming Aero India 2011.

Boeing, which is one of the contenders for the $10 billion medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) contract, will unveil a stealthier version of the F/A-18 at the air show to be held at the Air Force Station Yelahanka between February 9 and 13.

Boeing&#8217;s vice president and country head for defence, space and security, Vivek Lal, said that one of the two F/A-18s which will be performing at the bi-annual show will be configured with conformal fuel tanks, enhanced performance engines, spherical missile laser warning, enclosed weapons pad, next generation cockpit and internal infrared search and tracking system.

The mocked up aircraft, which will be unveiled at the Aero India will be the first F/A-18 to be developed as part of the &#8216;International Super Hornet Roadmap&#8217; programme which was announced by the US-based aerospace company at last year&#8217;s Farnborough Air Show in the UK.

Labelled as the next evolution of Block II Super Hornet, the aircraft is said to have features &#8220;which increase survivability, situational awareness, and performance for customers&#8221;.

Lal said that if India inked the 126 MMRCA deal with Boeing, it would also have the option of shaping its technology in future. &#8220;We are putting up a platform which will be combat worthy for the next 30 to 40 years,&#8221; said Lal.
Boeing to unveil stealthier F/A-18 aircraft - Bangalore - DNA


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## the rafter

*Russian MiG-35 to skip biz deal, show?*
February 2nd, 2011

Is Russia backing out of the battle for Indian Air Force's $ 12 billion medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) contract? MiG-35, the Russian contender for IAF's cash-guzzling deal, will give Aero India 2011 a skip.
The fighter was first unveiled at Aero India 2007, followed by a demonstration of its air prowess in Aero India 2009 in view of Moscow's keen interest to sell these planes to IAF.
This top-of-the-line multi-role aircraft will not pitch itself against other competitors next week, marking its exit from the race. Sources in the ministry of defence said Russia's focus would be on major deals such as the aerial tanker aircraft for mid-air refuelling of IAF's fighters, heavy-lift helicopters and radars during the five-day airshow beginning February 9.
The Russian aerial refuelling aircraft were used extensively during the flight trials of all six fighters in the reckoning for MMRCA deal and therefore would have an edge over other jets, sources told Deccan Chronicle.
France's Rafale, scheduled to make its debut at the air show, will be the cynosure at the international event. The Rafale, Sweden's JAS 39 Gripen, and United States' F-16 and F/A-18 Super Hornet, land at Air Force Station, Yelahanka, on Wednesday.
Russian MiG-35 to skip biz deal, show? | Deccan Chronicle | 2011-02-02


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## OldKool

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> The Active Aeroelastic Wing has not been incorporated into production F/A-18 E/F, this technology will likely debut on Boeing's 6th generation tailless design.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The point I was trying to make and perhaps I didn't emphasize it was that the F/A 18 has one of the thinnest wing on a production fighter contributing to its exceptional L/D score. F/A-18's thin wings made it an ideal candidate for AAW studies. AAW technology is an option that Boeing can explore in the future if F/A-18 customers wish to expand the aircrafts capability.
> 
> 
> 
> NASA - NASA Dryden Fact Sheet - Active Aeroelastic Wing
> 
> The ability to alter wing shape in flight and eliminating the horizontal tail has several benefits, reducing drag, reducing radar cross section and weight are some of the key benefits of incorporating AAW. To answer your question, the design goal was to improve on aerodynamic performance without compromising existing capability so while maneuverability is improved by AAW the ability to fly and fight carrying asymmetric loads remains the same.


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## luckyyy

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> If the US government and vendors consider the MMRCA deal strategic enough to make an exceptional offer then we will raise the bar far enough to make the Europeans irrelevant. If this does not happen then we can only assume India isn't important to the US.



and it is more importent for india to safegourg their skies then anything alse...


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## luckyyy

sancho said:


> The Mig is a designed for A2A and has just some added A2G capabilities, just look at the difference between Mig 29SMT and Mig 35 and you will see that with AESA radar, TVC, more thrust they again added mainly A2A features. They did increased the numbers of weapon station, payload and range too, but in these fields the Mig remains to be one of the least capable in the competition (besides several other issues). That's how the Russians like it (Su 35 and Su 34), but we want multi role fighters in between (MKI, FGFA, MMRCA) and that's why the Mig is not a good choice for IAF anymore.



mig-35 is least capable only in the views of internet activists...

specification by specification , mig-35 scores among the best...

radar , weapon load , range , IRST , weapons.........

you name it , it has everything..


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## MST

luckyyy said:


> mig-35 is least capable only in the views of internet activists...
> 
> specification by specification , mig-35 scores among the best...
> 
> radar , weapon load , range , IRST , weapons.........
> 
> you name it , it has everything..



I think by not showing up in Aero India it is now understood that MIG -35 is already out of shortlist. No point investing (spending millions) in coming to Aero India when there isn't much chance of winning. 
So there is no point arguing about its specifications.

Russia - India should focus now on the $30 Billion PAK FA/FGFA.

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## Enviable neighbour

1 thing's for sure that it boiled down to Rafale and EF.

Technical comparison of Rafale/EF has been done to death here, so....

Non technical advantages of Rafale (my perspective):

1. We already have the necessary infrastructure, know-how in operating the french planes. (greatest advantage)

2. Rafale is made by a SINGLE nation not a consortium.

3. Europian consortium itself is switcing to unmanned vehicles, so future in doldrums.

4. India will be the only 2nd country flying Rafale.

5. Rafale's overseas sales being NIL, price discount should be on cards.

6. Rafale is the sexiest beast of the lot.

7. US embargos shouldn't be a concern, as we enjoy the status of an ELITE partner with the US. The nuclear deal should be a testimony to it.

I'm all with Rafale .


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## Skull and Bones

Enviable neighbour said:


> 1 thing's for sure that it boiled down to Rafale and EF.
> 
> Technical comparison of Rafale/EF has been done to death here, so....
> 
> Non technical advantages of Rafale (my perspective):
> 
> 1. We already have the necessary infrastructure, know-how in operating the french planes. (greatest advantage)
> 
> 2. Rafale is made by a SINGLE nation not a consortium.
> 
> 3. Europian consortium itself is switcing to unmanned vehicles, so future in doldrums.
> 
> 4. India will be the only 2nd country flying Rafale.
> 
> 5. Rafale's overseas sales being NIL, price discount should be on cards.
> 
> 6. *Rafale is the sexiest beast of the lot.*
> 
> 7. US embargos shouldn't be a concern, as we enjoy the status of an ELITE partner with the US. The nuclear deal should be a testimony to it.
> 
> I'm all with Rafale .



That's not a valid reason, dude
keeping all the factors in mind Rafale is a better choice.


----------



## luckyyy

MST said:


> I think by not showing up in Aero India it is now understood that MIG -35 is already out of shortlist. No point investing (spending millions) in coming to Aero India when there isn't much chance of winning.
> So there is no point arguing about its specifications.
> 
> Russia - India should focus now on the $30 Billion PAK FA/FGFA.



surely it not on the shortlist of internet posters....but they are not the one deciding the mmrca....

people who will be deciding will take *specifications* into their notes..


----------



## the rafter

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> The Active Aeroelastic Wing has not been incorporated into production F/A-18 E/F, this technology will likely debut on Boeing's 6th generation tailless design.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The point I was trying to make and perhaps I didn't emphasize it was that the F/A 18 has one of the thinnest wing on a production fighter contributing to its exceptional L/D score. F/A-18's thin wings made it an ideal candidate for AAW studies. AAW technology is an option that Boeing can explore in the future if F/A-18 customers wish to expand the aircrafts capability.



I have to admit AAW is an interesting concept. But its surprising that since the tests concluded in 2005 the US air force, navy or RAF's (largest and only operators) have not even requested one squadron or even tech demonstrator to attract future customers. I have my doubts this tech getting approved for India sale as she is yet to sign CISMOA or LSA (India has already purchased C-130J without many imp. tech). 
1) The US congress has to approve any defense tech transfer.
2) US can use such tech transfer as a carrot to intervene between India and Pakistan.
3) The 6th gen. aircraft is an conceptual drawing far away reality and beyond the current scope of MMRCA.



Death.By.Chocolate said:


> The ability to alter wing shape in flight and eliminating the horizontal tail has several benefits, reducing drag, reducing radar cross section and weight are some of the key benefits of incorporating AAW. To answer your question, the design goal was to improve on aerodynamic performance without compromising existing capability so while maneuverability is improved by AAW the ability to fly and fight carrying asymmetric loads remains the same.



1) The Super hornet is bigger in dimensions than Eurofighter/Rafale/Gripen and also has a bigger RCS.
2) If you are talking about an empty jet or with internal weapons bay, I agree. But even if the aircraft has radar absorbing paint, with weapons its RCS is bound to be a lot more.

NASA - NASA Dryden Fact Sheet - Active Aeroelastic Wing



> About 25 research missions were flown in the second phase, covering 18 test points ranging from *speeds of Mach .85 to Mach 1.3* and *altitudes ranging from 5,000 to 25,000 feet*.


Isn't the normal flying altitude/height (service ceiling) for a jet in a mission/war about 40,000-50,000 ft or more?


----------



## dbc

the rafter said:


> I have to admit AAW is an interesting concept. But its surprising that since the tests concluded in 2005 the US air force, navy or RAF's (largest and only operators) have not even requested one squadron or even tech demonstrator to attract future customers. I have my doubts this tech getting approved for India sale as she is yet to sign CISMOA or LSA (India has already purchased C-130J without many imp. tech).



CISMOA is misunderstood by many, C-130J's communication gear was stripped of its encryption component to be replaced by Israeli or European ones. 



> CISMOA entails the laying down of protocols for interoperability and assuring the security of communication between the armed forces of the two countries





> "Government had asked us about our opinion on these agreements and we told them that *this will not make any substantial difference to our operational capabilities*"
> -- Air Chief Marshal P.V. Naik




Refusing CISMOA, LSA not to Impact Operational Effectiveness says Indian Air Force Chief P.V. Naik | India Defence




the rafter said:


> 1) The US congress has to approve any defense tech transfer.



Our intellectual property is valuable to us but whenever we agree to transfer technology the recipient nation has benefited immensely by it, Brazil and Israel have made significant contribution to the aerospace industry with US assistance. India on the other hand is struggling with LCA and Kaveri engine despite receiving European and Russian ToT for over forty years -why?

A former IAF officer shares his thoughts.



> Transfer of Technology (TOT): Myth or reality?
> Posted by vkthakur on Tuesday, July 14, 2009 (EST)
> 
> *Transfer of technology has been a buzz phrase in India for defense acquisitions since decades. So far India has little to show for all the technology transfers and license production that have taken place.
> *
> 
> Transfer of technology has been a buzz phrase in India for defense acquisitions since decades. So far India has little to show for all the technology transfers and license production that have taken place.
> 
> I have heard the phrase being bandied by politicians, bureaucrats and technocrats, since my school days, nearly 40 years ago.
> 
> India has been manufacturing MiG-21 variants since the 70s. Let alone developing a new aircraft based on the MiG-21, HAL was never able to even improve the aircraft in any way - Adding a dorsal fuel tank, for example, as in the MiG-21 Bis.
> 
> India designed and developed the Marut HF-24 in the late 1960's with assistance from German designer Dr. Kurt Tank and a lot of British help. HAL could never come up with a follow up.
> 
> We license produced the Jaguar? What good did that do? Where did the technology that was transferred go?
> 
> Whether transfer of technology works or not is linked to the technology base that a country has developed.
> 
> *Talk to any DRDO official and they tell you the Russian never transfer technology.
> 
> At Aero India 2009 the DRDO chief publically termed Russian TOT as a farce.
> *
> What DRDO officials mean is that the Russians don't tell us how to build their products from scratch. The question is not only - Should they be telling you how to do so? - but also - Can they effectively tell how to do - considering that we do not have a technological base matching theirs?
> 
> A large amount of metal alloys and composites goes into an aircraft. The alloys used differ from each aircraft component. The strength of the metal varies with the manufacturing process used to produce it. When transferring technology should the manufacturer tell from where to source the metal or how to manufacture it? If your country hasn't mastered the manufacturing processes what good would that do?
> 
> Recently someone referred to the possible French and Swedish readiness to part with source code for their AESA radars. (I am not aware this is true.)
> 
> While getting the source code along with the radar helps, it cannot be construed as transfer of technology.
> 
> Anyone who has worked with software knows the complexities of imbibing code.
> 
> Any code is based on thousands and thousands of lines of library code. Is the library source also being offered? Even if it is being, you will need to spend months, possibly years, to understand its flow and logic.
> 
> How generic is the code? How much generic can it be? Hardware specific code tends to be less generic to facilitate faster development and processing. Reuse of code is also limited by continuous improvements in hardware and software.
> 
> Code that took 100 person years to develop cannot be mastered within one or two months, even if you deploy 2,000 people for hacking it, assuming the cost of deploying 2,000 top notch software professionals on the project makes economic sense.
> 
> The example, is applicable to most electronic components fitted on a fighter aircraft, each of which uses software.
> 
> No transfer of technology allows you to copy manufacture. You can only license produce the quantity negotiated. So the vendors hold back a lot of data, like wind tunnel and flight testing data that would make it easy to modify the aircraft.
> 
> Broadly speaking, with a TOT agreement in place, the manufacturer will share with you just enough information to allow sourcing non critical components from the domestic market, or certain acceptable foreign markets.
> 
> *If we buy the Rafale, the French are not going to teach us how to build a fifth generation version of the Rafale.
> *
> Talking about French friendliness, here is a detail that I have mentioned elsewhere on this site. When they supplied us the Durandal runway denial bombs for use on the Jaguars, they missed out on a small detail that prevented the Jaguar from dropping it.
> 
> The IAF discovered the flaw years after acquiring the bombs, when Jaguars attempted to test fire them on a target runway in Pokharan for the first time.
> 
> Pre acquisition trials were conducted in France and since the bomb was so expensive IAF waited for the life of the first lot of bombs to nearly expire before testing them. Three Jaguars unsuccessfully attempted to release the bombs in front of the Defense minister, COAS and other top officials.
> 
> There were a lot of red faces that day, not just in the squadron tasked with the trials but right up the chain of command.
> 
> The software patch, when it arrived from France, took minutes.
> 
> Oh! Did I mention the squadron tasked was flying HAL manufactured Jaguars.


http://kuku.sawf.org/Articles/58870.aspx



the rafter said:


> 1) The Super hornet is bigger in dimensions than Eurofighter/Rafale/Gripen and also has a bigger RCS.



The B-2 Spirit is much larger than Eurofighter/Rafale/Gripen yet has the RCS of an insect. Do you have proof for this? Or are you propagating BS spread by Rafale fan boys?


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## sancho

luckyyy said:


> mig-35 is least capable only in the views of internet activists...
> 
> specification by specification , mig-35 scores among the best...
> 
> radar , weapon load , range , IRST , weapons.........
> 
> you name it , it has everything..



1) Least range (3000Km with 3 drop tanks, while all other offers 700 to over 1000Km more)

2) Least number of weapon stations (9)

3) Second least payload (6.5t, only the light Gripen has lower with 6t)

4.) One of the highst RCS

5) Low number of available weapons (and not a single new one that IAF don't have yet)

And that are only the operational problems, the Mig is an air superiority fighter with some added multi role capabilities and this latest version is just slightly upgraded, not more. If you want a real multi role fighter, with the potential to be useful for up to 40 years it is clearly a no go!




Enviable neighbour said:


> 4. India will be the only 2nd country flying Rafale.
> 
> 5. Rafale's overseas sales being NIL, price discount should be on cards.



I think there will be at least one export customer before we fix MMRCA and the highest chance for a discount, comes through the high numbers that we will procure (166 including IN at least, 200+ likely) 



Enviable neighbour said:


> 6. Rafale is the sexiest beast of the lot.



I 2nd that!


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## luckyyy

sancho said:


> 1) Least range (3000Km with 3 drop tanks, while all other offers 700 to over 1000Km more)
> 
> 2) Least number of weapon stations (9)
> 
> 3) Second least payload (6.5t, only the light Gripen has lower with 6t)
> 
> 4.) One of the highst RCS
> 
> 5) Low number of available weapons (and not a single new one that IAF don't have yet)




1)fuel tankers are high value targets , mig-35 is the only aircraft in the compitition with aircraft to aircraft airial refueling capability...
2) maximum AESA radar range , 200km , the next are the amaricans with 148km....
3) maximum OLS/IRST range...
4) the amarican aim-9x and europion aim-132 developed only after 10 years russian developed their R-77 , they always follow russians , their weaopns are new coz russian has those much earlier , so you can say russian didn't has any new weapon....btw , which weapon system russian didn't has which europian/amarican has ..?
ok , russians going to have a hypersonic a2a missiles in next 4 year , which the europians/amaricans not even thinking..
5) even if mig-35 has RCS of 1.2m2 , which might be lesser then others but these RCS are of clean aircraft , aircrafts won't enter enemy lines on clean confugration , they might be coming back clean , but not entering , so , RCS of a loader aircraft should be taken , which is almost same for all..
6) do you think 6.5t pay load is less , i think it's quit high , these are fighter aitcrafts not bombers....they will most probability will carry more missiles , so , if you distribute this 6500kg payload whicheven way , you will still got few kg payload free ...
7) and this weapon stations is not something that you can't increase...if f-16 with lower wing span/wing area could have 11 ,..

but the best think i like with russian system is *availability & affordability*....the best in line weapons are always available to IAF from russia and they are available at affordable price.......so , it's like having the cake & eat it too...


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## SpArK

*Raytheons offering at Aero India​*
US defense systems manufacturer Raytheon plans to exhibit a wide range of products and programs in the areas of Intelligence, Surveillance And Reconnaissance (ISR), Command, Control And Communications (C3), integrated air & missile defense, missile systems, radar and homeland security (including coastal/maritime security), at Aero India 2011 in Bangalore next week.



> The APG-79 APG-79 Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar.



For the F/A-18IN being pitched by Boeing for the 126 Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) tender of the Indian Air Force (IAF), Raytheon is offering an integrated sensor suite that is comprised of the combat-proven APG-79 Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar, ALR-67(V)3 Advanced Radar Warning Receiver (RWR), ALE-50 towed decoy, and the ATFLIR targeting pod. Raytheon says these systems comprise the baseline equipment on Block II Super Hornets for the US Navy, F/A-18E/F and the Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF) F/A-18F aircraft.




> The APG-79 Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar on board the F/A-18 Super Hornet.




Raytheon says it has delivered more than 250 APG-79 AESA radars, adding that ongoing radar upgrades and technology advancements will continue in the future due to a robust roadmap in place for radar development and further expansion of capabilities.

Raytheon is also offering an advanced electronic warfare suite and towed decoy system, for the F-16IN, Lockheed Martins entry in the MMRCA contest.

The company is exhibiting a suite of air-to-air and air-to-surface weapons specifically for the MMRCA contest, including, Advance Medium Air-to-Air Missile, AIM-9X Sidewinder, High-Speed Anti-Radiation Missile, Joint Standoff Weapon, Enhanced Paveway II and Maverick at the show.

Raytheon officials point out that its range of weapons systems are compatible with five of the six aircraft competing in the MMRCA.

Raytheons MMRCA weapons have baseline integration on multiple platforms, including all the western aircraft being offered for MMRCA, says Harry Schulte, Vice President of Raytheon Missile Systems Air Warfare Systems product line. This translates into significant cost avoidance and also means the IAF wont need to wait on weapons integration before their aircraft are operational, he adds.

His company also plans to exhibit maritime surveillance capabilities like the Multi-Spectral Targeting Systems for use on SH-60R and SH-60S helicopters, the APY-10 and SeaVue surveillance radars.

Raytheon says the SeaVue XMC radar family has expanded new capabilities that provide a significant increase in the ability to perform wide area surveillance and sort out and identify threats quickly and efficiently. The company says the SeaVue XMC radar is known for its proven ability to detect small maritime vessels in high sea states, and has been acknowledged for detecting stealthy Self Propelled Semi-Submersible crafts.

Raytheon says it is now considering establishing manufacturing in India and partnering with India to be a global supplier. Weve established strong ties with organizations such as Larsen & Toubro, Data Patterns, Astra Microwave, and Precision Electronics, among others. In the future, we will seek to expand our relationships in both the defense and civil security markets, says the company.

Raytheon's offering at Aero India | StratPost


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## the rafter

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Our intellectual property is valuable to us but whenever we agree to transfer technology the recipient nation has benefited immensely by it, Brazil and Israel have made significant contribution to the aerospace industry with US assistance.


See Brazil (South America) is not surrounded by Pakistan, Afghanistan, Bangladesh and China so lets leave it out. Israel is a natural ally of the US (and vice a versa). In the middle east, Israel against Iran, Iraq and Syria has only the support of US. And perhaps its USA's ulterior motive by meddling in every affair and maintain its dominance. Is it why the dispute between Israel and Palestine not over yet?
With India, US is a friend of Pakistan too (its a nuclear state too). US has much to gain from Afghanistan (getting rid of Taliban and Al qaeda). For this, it needs Pakistan's help more than it needs India's. And who is to say if India submits to US what will US make her do (to make Pakistan happy and help in return)? One of the reason Kashmir is India's internal matter because her defense does not depend on US and has Russian's and France to her help.
It was Mirage that was modified (without prior approval from France) in Kargil to fire the LGB's.

Refusing CISMOA, LSA not to Impact Operational Effectiveness says Indian Air Force Chief P.V. Naik | India Defence
This was quoted by Mr. Naik in regards to C-130J, C-17 and the ultra-light howitzers. NOT MMRCA. So it is YOUR assumption IAF will not mind it for MMRCA too.



Death.By.Chocolate said:


> India on the other hand is struggling with LCA and Kaveri engine despite receiving European and Russian ToT for over forty years -why?





> *It took the Tejas 1,500 test flights and 23 years of development to get to this point. Isn&#8217;t that too long? *
> 
> You have to see that it started as a thought process in 1983 and there was no funding at that point. For the next ten years, we firmed up the requirements and then went into project definition phase. We went to France and Germany and took their expertise in fixing up the aerodynamic configuration. Post that we were ready with a firm proposal and the funding finally started from the second half of 1992. It did take time, but we had to go through the proper processes.
> 
> *Then there were the sanctions after Pokhran II. How did that affect the development of Tejas? *
> 
> Let me be clear &#8212; we perhaps got delayed by two years. *On the day the sanctions came into force, our team was in the US offices of our partners there (Lockheed Martin and BAE Inc.). The team was working on integration of software with the hardware of the LCA. Suddenly we were asked to leave the offices, and we were not even allowed to take back the designs we were working on the systems there, and those were almost ready to be tested. We had to again develop it from memory, because we weren&#8217;t allowed to copy our own stuff, which delayed the whole thing.*
> 
> *You are saying that you had to spend some time recovering what you had already worked on and then build on it? *
> 
> Exactly. But the sanctions also spurred us on to do better, and to make the entire fighter aircraft on our own. *So in the next few years, we did not just recover what we had lost back then, but also went some steps ahead and achieved the expertise that we had tied up with the US companies for*. So now we had what they had but need not rely on them anymore. So ultimately that did delay us, but also made us stronger.


We never had a single failure in 1,500 flights of Tejas: ADE - The Economic Times



> The last and most crippling impediment for the project was posed by the denial of crucial technologies by the West. Post-liberalisation advice and consultancy in certain key areas of the LCA design, notably the FBW system, was obtained from aerospace firms in the US and Britain


A beam of light




Death.By.Chocolate said:


> The B-2 Spirit is much larger than Eurofighter/Rafale/Gripen yet has the RCS of an insect. Do you have proof for this? Or are you propagating BS spread by Rafale fan boys?


Don't you know B-2 Spirit bomber has internal weapon's bay? Doesn't that help in reducing the RCS? It has several other components that contribute towards its stealth characteristics, I don't want to discuss in this thread.




I'm no fanboy of Rafale/Eurofighter/Gripen and neither do I hate the US planes. I admire them but what I fear is the US strategy once India gets Super hornets or F-16.
What did I say in my last reply about RCS? 


> If you are talking about an empty jet or with internal weapons bay, I agree.


So even if a fighter jet has a smaller RCS once the weapons and conformal tanks attached externally, the RCS increases drastically (it is true for Rafale, Eurofighter, Gripen, Mig-35, F-16 and Super hornet).


----------



## sancho

SpArK said:


> *Raytheon&#8217;s offering at Aero India​*
> For the F/A-18IN being pitched by Boeing for the 126 Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) tender of the Indian Air Force (IAF), Raytheon is offering &#8216;an integrated sensor suite that is comprised of the combat-proven *APG-79 Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar*,



Does anybody have a source how many targets it (also the Raven AESA of the Gripen) can detect and how many of them can be engaged at the same time?


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## the rafter

sancho said:


> Does anybody have a source how many targets it (also the Raven AESA of the Gripen) can detect and how many of them can be engaged at the same time?



http://www.raytheon.com.au/rtnwcm/groups/rau/documents/download/rau_factsheet_apg79aesa.pdf


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## dbc

the rafter said:


> I'm no fanboy of Rafale/Eurofighter/Gripen and neither do I hate the US planes. I admire them but what I fear is the US strategy once India gets Super hornets or F-16.
> What did I say in my last reply about RCS?



I didn't say you were a fan boy I asked if you believed what Rafale fan boys falsely claim and pointed out an exception to your own claim linking RCS to the size of the aircraft. 

As for Rafale's RCS claims, take a look at the below image of the Rafale, the canard, refueling probe, OSF, air intake ,diverter, vertical stabilizer, panel gaps, spectra antenna and surface discontinuities all contribute to the Rafale's radar cross section. The picture speaks for itself, claims of low RCS by Rafale fan boys is hard to believe.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## the rafter

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> I didn't say you were a fan boy I asked if you believed what Rafale fan boys falsely claim and pointed out an exception to your own claim linking RCS to the size of the aircraft.
> 
> As for Rafale's RCS claims, take a look at the below image of the Rafale, the canard, refueling probe, OSF, air intake ,diverter, vertical stabilizer, panel gaps, spectra antenna and surface discontinuities all contribute to the Rafale's radar cross section. The picture speaks for itself, claims of low RCS by Rafale fan boys is hard to believe.



I Agree!

Reactions: Like Like:
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## the rafter

More speculations..... Still can't ignore them?

*A Russian splash in Bangalore, sans MiG-35*
Viktor Litovkin. Source: PhotoXpress
Aero India-2011, which opens in Bangalore on 9th February, will host as usuall the leaders of Russia&#8217;s aircraft industry, including Sukhoi Company, IRKUT Corporation, Ilyushin Aviation Complex, United Industrial Corporation Oboronprom, and others.

Their products will mainly be exhibited as scale models, stands, various equipment and existing models. Rosoboronexport experts say that bringing real prototypes to the other end of the world is not economically feasible. Russian aviation technology and air defense systems are well known in India. The cooperation between the two countries is several decades old totaling over $40 billion in sales. India accounts for up to one third of Russian defense exports. Unlike other countries, Russia generously transfers licenses and technologies as well as arms and weaponry to India.

Many types of Russian weaponry and equipment are used by the Indian air force, in particular, Sukhoi SU-30MKI fighters produced by Irkut Corporation and assembled under the Russian license by HAL. In any case, they will enjoy an extensive presence at Aero India-2011. Indian aces of aerial aerobatics are to demonstrate their superior flight skills above Bangalore. Why would Russian manufacturers send yet another similar aircraft there?

The same is true of the following: MiG 29K seaborne fighting aircraft that Moscow delivered to Delhi for the INS Vikramaditya currently being retrofitted in Severodvinsk; the Russian AWACS &#1040;-50 equipped with the Israeli 360-degree Phalkon early-warning radar that was transferred to the Indian air forces; and KB Mashinostroeniya products that along with DRDO (Defence Research and Development Organisation of the Indian Ministry of Defence) developed the BrahMos supersonic anti-surface missile for the Indian armed forced. The latter can be fired from submarines, ships or land. Now the Russian-Indian BrahMos joint venture, named after the Brahmaputra and Moskva Rivers, is to retool the missile to make it Su-30MKI-launcheable.

However, Aero India-2011 will see a whole new splash, and a very odd one at that.
The aerospace exhibition in Bangalore will not host the MiG-35 prototype, a modern Russian fighter. The strange part is that Russia announced this combat aircraft as part of its bid to provide 126 medium range multifunctional fighters under the MMRCA (Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft) programme to Delhi. Six combat fighters - American F/A18E/F Super Hornet by Boeing and F-16IN Super Viper by Lockheed Martin, French Rafale by Dassault Aviation, European Eurofighter EF-2000 Typhoon by EADS, Swedish Gripen NG (Saab) and Russian MiG-35 &#8211; will participate in the bid for the $11 billion long-term contract.* It was MiG-35 that the sponsors of the air show in Bangalore did not hesitate to call &#8220;the absolute best&#8221; while speaking on the radio two years ago during Aero India-2009.*

Can the absence of Russia&#8217;s main hope to win this promising tender be explained by the pragmatism of cost cutting? Russian Aircraft Corporation MiG confirmed that. *They say that MiG-35 passed all necessary tests, including armament tests, in India. Aviation experts from Delhi spent many weeks in Moscow and at the MiG facilities, familiarised themselves with the technology and manufacturing equipment and received all the documents required for them to make the right decision.* Therefore, there is no point in spending more money to demonstrate its excellent flight and handling qualities yet again at the Bangalore exhibition. We would not be able to show anything fundamentally new.

Yet, there is another point of view that has recently been voiced by Strategic Affairs, an Indian military publication. *In its January issue it referred to an advisor to the Minister of Defence of the country, who spent several weeks in the United States and allegedly guaranteed Boeing that its F/A18E/F Super Hornet aircraft would win the MMRCA tender.* Moreover, the observers explain the no-show of the Russian aircraft at Aero India-2011 by the loss of the confidential tender documents that were first misplaced several months ago, and then suddenly found, as well as the tender short list not including MiG-35, that, as the rumour goes, was neither confirmed nor denied.

Well, it is an open question whether this is true. Although it is clear that the sensational absence of the Russian fighter MiG-35 at the Bangalore exhibition will not affect the long-term military and technical relations between Moscow and Delhi, it will leave a bitter aftertaste. However the military cooperation between the two countries has never been better. The recently signed contract for building a 5th generation one-seated aircraft on the 5th generation T-50 platform that will ensure high technology contracts for dozens of Indian enterprises within HAL (Hindustan Aeronautics Limited) and unique air power for the Indian air forces, is a sign of genuine trust between Russia and India.

At the same time, the Russian design bureaus and defence enterprises should keep their eyes open. Competition for the Indian arms market is growing by the day. American firms are particularly active there. *As soon as the US Senate lifted a number of restrictions on cooperation with Delhi, Boeing and Lockheed Martin, as well as other major corporations such as Northrop Grumman, Sikorsky, McDonnell Douglas, etc., headed to Delhi and opened their representative offices there, looking for and finding approaches to senior public officials and local movers and shakers to promote their companies in Hindustan.* It is particularly relevant now when India is striving to diversify its defense supply base in order not to put all its eggs in one basket.

*Washington is not only seeking to conquer the Indian arms market, but also to create a powerful competitor to China (which is developing by leaps and bounds, including in the national defence area) on the Hindustan Peninsula.* According to experts, Delhi is not ready to &#8220;sink into Washington&#8217;s arms&#8221; though, and is still resisting closer military and technical cooperation with the United States. India knows that the White House and the Senate could, at any time and at the slightest pretext, impose sanctions against its enterprises, whereas Moscow has never done and will never do anything of the such. *Moreover, the United States, while cooperating with India, never stopped their arms and weaponry supplies to Pakistan &#8211; a rival and a headache for India. Again, this is not the case with Moscow.*

Therefore, exhibitions are exhibitions, and a splash, in the end, is nothing new, but India knows the value of long-lasting and reliable military and technical cooperation with Russia, regardless of any obstacles.

Viktor Litovkin is the Editor-in-Chief of the &#8220;Independent Military Review&#8221;
A Russian splash in Bangalore, sans MiG-35 | Russia & India Report


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## the rafter

*British aerospace firms eye partnerships at air show*

2011-02-03 20:50:00
Bangalore, Feb 3 (IANS) About 40 leading British aerospace firms will participate in the Aero India 2011 trade expo from Feb 9-13 in this tech hub to forge partnerships and joint ventures with Indian companies, the UK Trade and Investment (UKTI) office said Thursday.

*British Minister for Defence Equipment Support and Technology Peter Luff will lead a large defence and business delegation to the five-day air show at the air force base near Yelahanka on the city's outskirts, where the British firms will showcase their cutting edge technology in the defence, aviation and security sectors.*

'Forging industrial partnerships and joint ventures between our defence industries, air force and defence scientists and Indian counterparts will be high on our agenda during the visit to Aero India, a world class show and best in the region,' Luff said in a statement.

*The delegation will also discuss with the Indian authorities prospects of the Eurofighter Typhoon as a multi-role medium combat aircraft (MMRCA) for the Indian Air Force (IAF) fleet.*

Typhoon, a product of the European consortium, including Britain, Germany, Italy and Spain, is in race with five other global aerospace majors for the 126 fighter aircraft order from the IAF at an estimated $10 billion.

'Our strategic relationship with India is important and we are keen to engage in both the defence and security sectors to enhance the relationship,' Luff said.

Other British aerospace firms with business interests in India are Cobham, Hampson, Magellan, STG and Preston.

'British aerospace firms are developing their business across India. Our representation at air show spans a wide spectrum with business interests here such as BAE Systems and Rolls Royce,' British High Commissioner to India Richard Stagg noted.

According to UKTI's defence and security organisation (DSO) head Richard Paniguian, the British industry is keen to identify opportunities in the Indian sub-continent for long-term industrial partnerships in air, land, maritime and security sectors.

The delegation will include Air Marshal Kevin J. Leeson, chief of material, Royal Air Force; Air Vice Marshal Nigel Maddox, UKTI-DSO military adviser and Alan Malpas, UKTI regional director for India, the Middle East and Northern Africa.
British aerospace firms eye partnerships at air show


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## Agnostic_Indian

i have no problem with american jets but problem is with your chased agreements like cismoa,euma(which we signed ), etc.
i fear america can listen to indian communications which goes through US supplied com equipments.weapons using gps are at mercy of americans mood.america will come to know each and every target prior to attack..true or false ?i need some clarification on this matters..


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## GORKHALI

*MILITARY AVIATION AND SPACE TECHNOLOGY NEWS: U.S. Navy, Pentagon Debate EA-18G Growler*
While the U.S. Navy has continued to make improvements to its F/A-18 electronic attack variant &#8212; the EA-18G Growler &#8212; the service has yet to prove the aircraft is suitable for operations, says a recent report by the Pentagon&#8217;s Director of Operational Test and Evaluation (DOT&E).

At the same time, DOT&E notes another Navy electronic warfare aircraft, the EA-6B Prowler, is suitable, despite testing limitations faced by the program.

DOT&E notes &#8220;suitability problems&#8221; that were identified during Growler testing in 2008. The Navy conducted Verification of Correction of Deficiencies (VCD) testing on the EA-18G from September 2009 to January 2010 to resolve those issues.

&#8220;The VCD test results did confirm significant progress on improving suitability, but additional development and testing are needed,&#8221; DOT&E notes in its most recent report, released in January. &#8220;The EA-18G is operationally effective, but still not operationally suitable.&#8221;

In DOT&E&#8217;s parlance, &#8220;operationally effective&#8221; simply means the system can perform its mission. &#8220;Operationally suitable&#8221; means the system will be practical and supportable in the field.

As far as the Navy is concerned, the Growler&#8217;s initial operational test and evaluation proved it is both operationally effective and suitable. &#8220;From what we understand, DOT&E included items outside the specific scope of [the] test for the EA-18G program into its findings,&#8221; the service says in a statement. &#8220;Although these items were outside the scope of the development program, they are items DOT&E felt important enough to address from a Department of Defense perspective.

&#8220;No program ever enters IOT&E [initial operational test and evaluation] perfect or ends without identification of anomalies,&#8221; the Navy says. &#8220;None of the anomalies were showstoppers.&#8221;

Prime contractor Boeing acknowledges seeing &#8220;software anomalies&#8221; during testing. Company spokesman Philip Carder says &#8220;the majority of those anomalies were resolved through a previously planned system software update.&#8221;

DOT&E agreed the Navy has been making improvements. &#8220;The VCD test results provide strong evidence that aircraft software stability is improving,&#8221; DOT&E says. &#8220;But additional development and flight testing is required to confirm the problems have been resolved.&#8221;

The scheduled testing for the first quarter of this year should provide the Navy an opportunity to &#8220;assess efforts to fix these suitability issues, particularly with the latest software load that indicated significant progress with fixing maintainability problems,&#8221; DOT&E says.


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## Capt.Popeye

bhagathsingh said:


> i have no problem with american jets but problem is with your chased agreements like cismoa,euma(which we signed ), etc.
> i fear america can listen to indian communications which goes through US supplied com equipments.weapons using gps are at mercy of americans mood.america will come to know each and every target prior to attack..true or false ?i need some clarification on this matters..



Your post _seems_ to indicate that you have not been following the news closely.
The first underlined part; *India has not signed CISMOA.*And does not intend to.

About the second underlined part; since India has not signed CISMOA, the US supplied aircraft will be deprived of secure communication equipment (administered by them), SATCOM and IFF. These equipments will be sourced by India. Hence the possibility of US listening in to the communications is minimal. About GPS: USA controls GPS unilaterally, but GPS is not the only Navaid on aircraft so again there are alternatives.

Does that clarify?


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## SpArK

*PHOTOS: Typhoons Arrive At Yelahanka For Aero India 2011​*









Livefist: PHOTOS: Typhoons Arrive At Yelahanka For Aero India 2011


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## sancho

the rafter said:


> http://www.raytheon.com.au/rtnwcm/groups/rau/documents/download/rau_factsheet_apg79aesa.pdf



Thanks, but I know the factfile and it doesn't give a figure for target detection, or engagement. Do you have any other sources?




bhagathsingh said:


> i have no problem with american jets but problem is with your chased agreements like cismoa,euma(which we signed ), etc.
> i fear america can listen to indian communications which goes through US supplied com equipments.weapons using gps are at mercy of americans mood.america will come to know each and every target prior to attack..true or false ?i need some clarification on this matters..



It's not about the com systems, because they could be replaced just like we do it with P8I, or C130Js. The main problem of buying US fighters, that are aimed on fighting possibly even Pakistan (one of their closest alleys in the region) are the restrictions and laws that limits the control. We can't buy something that is so important like a frontline fighter and let foreign countries look at them whenever they want to, or tell them anytime we want to use it against an enemy. The same laws and restrictions also limits ToT of important techs, that we need to improve our own industry, just think about Tejas development, they wasn't even ready to allow consultancy at navalising LCA, let alone co-developments of radar and engine. 
The European offers (the Russian of course too), don't have these problems.
They are ready to help and improve our industry, with JV, co.developments much ToT, no restriction and some of them are even totally sanction proof! If MMRCA has a focus on ToT and industrial benefits and improvements and the US don't reduce their restrictions in these fields, there should be no doubt that especially the Rafale and EF offers are the best for us.


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## SpArK

YouTube - RAFALE by L.Charlet from SpArK

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## the rafter

YouTube - Eurofighter Typhoon - Technology, Weapon Systems & International Co-operation: Aloysius Rauen, CEO

YouTube - The Black Rafale

YouTube - F/A18 Super Hornet F18 fighter attack jet display at Farnborough International Air Show 2010 HD

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## the rafter

*IAF may get 'Star Wars' helmet from European consortium*
NEW DELHI: A hi-tech helmet, reminiscent of movies like "Star Wars" and "Firefox" as it helps fighter pilots operate air RAF) through a seemingly fictional vision-and-voice command, has been offered to India by European consortium EADS . 

The helmet also enables pilots to view enemy planes by just turning their heads and picking targets for the aircraft to shoot down. It has been offered under the $10.4 billion combat plane tender. 

"Designed and developed by British aerospace major BAE Systems, the helmet is part of optional purchases India could make if it chooses to go with the Eurofighter Typhoon plane in the medium multi-role combat aircraft ( MMRCA ) tender," an official of Cassidian, EADS' defence and security arm, said here Friday. 

"We have given this option to the Indian Air Force (IAF) if it decides in favour of our aircraft," the official said. 

The helmet-mounted symbology system, released last July by BAE, is getting ready for use by Royal Air Force (RAF) pilots flying the Eurofighter Typhoon this year. It may soon be worn by Spanish, German and Italian fighter pilots flying the Eurofighter Typhoon. 

BAE Systems had in its press release a month ago called the helmet "something out of Star Wars", a reference to its capabilities that seem straight out of some sci-fi movie. The company said the helmet let the pilot see through the body of the aircraft. 

"Using the new helmet system, the pilot can now look at multiple targets, lock-on to them, and then, by voice-command, prioritise them. It's a lightning-fast system to let the pilot look, lock-on, and fire," the BAE Systems' release said. 

A similar system was also showcased in the 1982 sci-fi action flick "Firefox", which starred Clint Eastwood in the lead, in which the Americans send a pilot on a mission to steal a Russian technology by which a fictional MiG-31 fighter jet can be controlled through a neuralink. 

The helmet, with a number of sensors linked to the aircraft's computer-enabled systems, helps the pilot to view or sense enemy aircraft beyond visual range by moving his head in the direction of the target even as he flies away from its path. The out of sight enemy targets are picked up by the aircraft's radars. 

This capability ensures that the aircraft knows exactly where and what the pilot is looking at and will zero-in on multiple targets to fire its weapons based on priority listed by him, which in turn is based on speed, heading, height and positions of enemy aircraft or missiles as displayed on the helmet's visor.
IAF may get 'Star Wars' helmet from European consortium - The Economic Times


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## Mani2020

Well in beauty context , i really admire the beauty of Rafale

The sleek curves near the intakes makes it eye catching


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## Agnostic_Indian

Mani2020 said:


> Well in beauty context , i really admire the beauty of Rafale
> 
> The sleek curves near the intakes makes it eye catching



well..she is beautiful..but the ugly typhoon would be more powerful..that's what we need.


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## GORKHALI

*once upon a time in mumbai i think its 2004 during staic display ,just this one remain for memory
*


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## the rafter

PANDORA said:


> *once upon a time in mumbai i think its 2004 during staic display ,just this one remain for memory
> *



What's the relevance of this pic with MMRCA?


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## sancho

bhagathsingh said:


> well..she is beautiful..but the ugly typhoon would be more powerful..that's what we need.



True it's more powerful, but we need capabilities and that's where it's still lack behind (weapon and tech integration, tech development). Not to forget that it has no alternative for IN and I'm sure they will link these competitions, that's why I still see the F18SH with higher chances then the EF.

P.S. First pic of Rafale at AERO INDIA:


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## the rafter

Yet another summary of MMRCA competition:
YouTube - Aero India 2011

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## sancho

the rafter said:


> Yet another summary of MMRCA competition:



Which confirms several issues again:

*US fighters* - restrictions, especially on ToT

*Gripen* - no strategic / political value

*EF* - not all capabilities are available, especially the AESA radar, which is only industrial funded

*Rafale* - French ego?

*Mig 35* - with Su 30 and FGFA, the Mig deal is unlikely

Reactions: Like Like:
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## the rafter

*Indian firm Maini Group to make components for Eurofighter Typhoon, Airbus planes - The Economic Times*

BANGALORE: In one of the largest aerospace outsourcing contracts awarded to a mid-tier Indian firm, Bangalore-based Maini Group has bagged a multi-million dollar contract from German engine maker MTU Aero-Engines to make components for Eurofighter Typhoon and Airbus planes. 

The engineering group, best known as maker of Reva, the country's first ever electric passenger car, will develop engine components for multi-role combat aircraft Eurofighter Typhoon and next generation A380 and A320 planes of Airbus, the world's largest aircraft maker. The deal will be signed during the Bangalore Air Show (Aero India 2011) which takes off on 9th February. 

"With the commercial aero-engine market expected to generate about $740 billion sales over the next 20 years, we are now looking forward to growing the relationship with MTU on a strategic level," said Naresh Palta, chief executive, Maini Aerospace. "The group will invest around $30-40 million in the next 4-5 years to scale up its infrastructure and capacity," said Palta, who was earlier an executive director at public sector major, Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL). Last year, the group bagged an outsourcing contract worth up to $10 million from Marshall Aerospace , subcontractors for Boeing , the world's largest aerospace company. 

"The timing of Maini's transformation to Aerospace is right. It will take them another five years to actually see the results," says B Mahadevan, professor, production and operations management, at the Indian Institute of Management, Bangalore (IIM-B). 

The contract work will be led by group companies Maini Precision Products (MPP), including its subsidiary company Maini Global Aerospace (MGA). The multi-year contract now positions the Mainis as strategic suppliers to the German major that has total revenues of $ 3.5 billion and partners with aero-engine manufacturers such as GE, Pratt & Whitney and Rolls-Royce to source aero-engine components. 

"For them this is the India test, to see whether private industry in India can actually deliver as per the German standards," said Gautam Maini, managing director, Maini Precision, who led the aerospace foray for the group even as younger brother Chetan Maini made waves with Reva. "Aerospace is going to be a big market in 5-8 years. The business cycle ranges between 7 and 8 years. It was a quantum shift, something we had to believe for a long-term," says Maini. 

Maini Aerospace , which got Snecma, a major French manufacturer of engines, as its first customer, has now developed more than 900 build-to-print parts in the past six years. These involve contracts from global customers such as Safran, BAE Systems , Eaton, Goodrich and Magellan Aerospace . It is also working with state-owned HAL to make components for various projects.


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## the rafter

Self deleted


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## bhagat




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## angeldemon_007

> US cables reveal Boeing UAV project in Brazil (DAMN!! WIKI REALLY FACINATING ME )
> Newly-leaked diplomatic cables provide evidence that Boeing partnered with a Brazilian company to work on a previously undisclosed unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) project.
> The dispatch from the US embassy in Brasilia dated 15 January 2009 came during the most intense period in the competition for the F-X2 fighter contract, which involved the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet.
> On 13 January 2009, US Ambassador Clifford Sobel met with Nelson Jobim, then Brazil's minister of defence, to discuss Boeing's position in the competition, the cable says.
> The issue of technology transfer prompted Nelson to praise Boeing's work with an undisclosed Brazilian company.
> Nelson said he was "excited to hear that Boeing was working with a Brazilian company on a UAV, as it might prevent Brazil having to buy UAVs from Israel, which had become politically sensitive," the cable says.
> It is not clear if the Brazilian company was a reference to Embraer, the country's largest aircraft maker. On 31 January 2011, Acir Podilha, vice president of sales and marketing for Embraer Defense and Security, told reporters that the company wants to become involved in UAVs, but currently has no products in that market.
> Jobim's apparent effort to avoid purchasing Israeli UAVs did not appear to work. Two years after Jobim's conversation with Sobel, the Brazilian air force ordered Hermes 450s, which are manufactured by Israel-based Elbit Systems.



I really hope our policy-makers wok out this deal cleverly, we can also ask for talarion uav partnership. EADS is most likely to lose UAV contest and then it will look for partners from countries like India and Brazil. I really hope we do better negotiations like Brazil did.

If we go for US, we should ask for Predators. If we go for Rafale, then we could ask for partnership in Neuron or could ask for some DCNS new design like Swordfish or barracuda.


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## the rafter

angeldemon_007 said:


> I really hope our policy-makers wok out this deal cleverly, we can also ask for talarion uav partnership. EADS is most likely to lose UAV contest and then it will look for partners from countries like India and Brazil. I really hope we do better negotiations like Brazil did.
> 
> If we go for US, we should ask for Predators. If we go for Rafale, then we could ask for partnership in Neuron or could ask for some DCNS new design like Swordfish or barracuda.


 
FYI, India has already began on its own UAV program called 'AURA'.
I don't think India needs to join any other country's UAV program. But, it may be possible that India asks for European/American technical help to build its own.
Livefist: India's UCAV To Be A Neuron Clone?


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## the rafter

*Northrop Grumman sees India sealing $11 bn deal in '11*

US defence contractor Northrop Grumman expects India to seal a deal to spend USD 11 billion on new fighter jets by the end of this year, as it supplies fuselage and radars to manufacturers bidding for the order, an executive said on Monday.
Asia's third-largest economy is looking to spend more than USD 30 billion over the next five years to modernise its armed forces, including USD 11 billion to buy 126 fighter jets. There has been a lot of speculation on when India will pick a bidder.

Northrop, the Pentagon's No. 3 supplier by sales, has also proposed selling early warning systems and unmanned planes to the Indian navy, G. Sharma, the head of Northrop's Indian arm, told reporters.
India is strengthening its naval presence to protect its maritime interest in the Indian Ocean and inducting dozens of new ships and fighter aircraft to counter other naval powers.
The country is looking to modernise its weapons systems after the 2008 Mumbai attacks revealed glaring loopholes in security.
Boeing's F/A-18 Super Hornet, Dassault's Rafale, Lockheed Martin Corp's F-16, Russia's MiG-35 and Saab's JAS-39 Gripen are among those competing for India's fighter jets order.
Northrop is supplying parts to Boeing and Lockheed for the jets. "India is a growing country," Sharma said. "The defence outlays which are being projected are substantially higher than what they had. Seeing all this, no country can avoid India." 
Northrop is in talks with Indian companies such as state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd and Bharat Electronics for sourcing equipment locally, which could be one of the factors that India would consider when picking a bidder, Sharma said.
In 2009, India introduced a new rule that made it mandatory for foreign defence firms to buy 30% of equipment from local firms to boost the domestic defence sector, and is now looking to raise the figure to 70% within a decade.
US Commerce Secretary Gary Locke, visiting India this week, said on Monday he was concerned about the country's tariff and non-tariff barriers, highlighting the hurdles in boosting bilateral trade despite the growing economic and security ties between the two countries.
Locke, who is leading Boeing, Lockheed and 22 other US firms on a trade mission in India, last week said he would press the country to buy US fighter jets and other advanced technology products.
Northrop Grumman sees India sealing &#36;11 bn deal in '11 - Reuters -


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## angeldemon_007

> FYI, India has already began on its own UAV program called 'AURA'.


Look buddy i pray we will be able to build this UCAV. But be realistic just look at our level of technology of UAV. The only UAV which could fly on its own and then land back is Rustom which as far as i know is still waiting to get inducted. 

Also if you could see Rustom more than a decade late as compared to western world, although still its good. 
We don't have any UAV which is in the category of predator like weapon carrying UAV. Not even Israel has such kind of UAV but we are thinking of building UCAV of the line of Neuron, X-47b. 

I think we should stop dreaming, we need technological help and this way we could get.

*FYI, we don't have any of the capability to bring this AURA out of the drawing board.* 

Whatever ADA or HAL say, actually there is no design yet only some speculation on the web. The current status of this project is just the name which would change in couple of years and then after 2 more years work will start.

And i didn't meant just uav, what i meant is we could negotiate about any state of the art technology or design in return of this deal just like Brazil did.


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## the rafter

angeldemon_007 said:


> Look buddy i pray we will be able to build this UCAV. But be realistic just look at our level of technology of UAV. The only UAV which could fly on its own and then land back is Rustom which as far as i know is still waiting to get inducted.



Buddy, I think you should read enough before making such claims! Since you would not believe my words i'm quoting the published news.

*While the aircraft has many auto features like GPS-controlled Way Point Navigation and Get U Home even in its first flight, they will be exercised in the subsequent flights. The UAV has an endurance of 12 to 15 hours and can carry payloads up to 75 kg and has an altitude ceiling of 25,000 feet. The data link system for this UAV was designed and developed by another DRDO lab called Defence Electronics Applications Laboratory (DEAL) situated in Dehradun. Its airframe is made by a private company called Zephyr situated in Coimbatore and most of its onboard systems are also manufactured by Indian private industries. This development is the forerunner to the medium altitude long endurance UAV project Rustom H to be taken up by the lab shortly. This also paves way for the development of Unmanned Combat Aerial Vehicles in the country. This UAV can be used by all the three armed services of our country.*
UAV test flightgoes off smoothly - The Times of India

*India has not been left out of the global UAV push. The country operates Israeli Searcher tactical UAVs, and Heron Medium Altitude, Long Endurance (MALE) UAVs, placing an additional Heron order in 2005.*
Indias Rustom MALE UAV: A Step Forward - Or Back?
http://www.iai.co.il/18900-16382-en/BusinessAreas_UnmannedAirSystems_HeronFamily.aspx



angeldemon_007 said:


> Also if you could see Rustom more than a decade late as compared to western world, although still its good. We don't have any UAV which is in the category of predator like weapon carrying UAV. Not even Israel has such kind of UAV but we are thinking of building UCAV of the line of Neuron, X-47b. I think we should stop dreaming, we need technological help and this way we could get.



India's indigenous unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) Nishant has successfully completed its series of confirmatory trials carried out by the army at the Chandan ranges in Pokhran, Rajasthan, ahead of its induction.
'Nishant, the UAV, has successfully completed the series of confirmatory trials conducted by the Indian Army at Chandan Range Pokharan recently,' a Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) release said here Thursday. 
The successful flight trials were conducted by the army before taking delivery of a set of four Nishants together with ground systems. The trials were witnessed by army's Director General (Artillery) Lt. Gen. Vinod Nayanar, ADE Director P.S. Krishnan and Nishant project director G. Sivasankaran.
*The performance of the pay load sensors in particular has been better than even the imported UAVs with the Army*.

*Navy commissions nation's 2nd UAV squadron in Gujarat*
Navy commissions nation's 2nd UAV squadron in Gujarat - Hindustan Times



angeldemon_007 said:


> *FYI, we don't have any of the capability to bring this AURA out of the drawing board.*


Here's further proof what India is capable of:
1) Indian aerospace scientists have developed an in-flight collision avert system that prevents unmanned aerial vehicles from crashing into enemy aircraft or other objects.
India working on UAV anti-collision system
2) Indian scientists the Army Institute of Technology said they developed a software program that improves landing precision of unmanned aerial vehicles without operator intervention.
India develops better UAV landing software
3) Within two years of developing the Vihang Netra, Indias first Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV) in the private sector built for the Snow and Avalanche Study Establishment, a DRDO lab, a conglomeration of small and medium enterprises (SMEs) is now ready with the countrys first, hand-launched mini-UAV E-5.
After Vihang Netra, SMEs float first mini-UAV



angeldemon_007 said:


> Whatever ADA or HAL say, actually there is no design yet only some speculation on the web. The current status of this project is just the name which would change in couple of years and then after 2 more years work will start.


India is making progress depending on its requirements and capabilities. If it needs an attack UAV, it will get one. Like here: 
1) Northrop Grumman in race for Navy aircraft order
2) http://www.upi.com/Business_News/Se...ild-UAVs-in-joint-venture/UPI-80591285615764/
But Building UAV is not like going to Radioshack and assembling pieces together. It takes time and money. 
BTW, Northrop Grumman's X-47B unmanned stealth bomber completed its first flight today.
The X-47B did a flyover of Edwards Air Force Base in Edwards, California. It was in the air for 29 minutes, reached an altitude of 5,000 feet. The tailless, fighter-sized aircraft is unlike other unmanned drones in that it can carry out extended missions completey controlled by a computer. It's also the first drone capable of taking off and landing aboard an aircraft carrier. The X-47B is slightly smaller than the B-2 stealth bomber. It can carry laser-guided bombs and fly at 40,000 feet at speeds faster than 500 miles per hour.
*The UAV is a six-year $635.8 million project which is scheduled for completion by 2013.*
http://www.irconnect.com/noc/press/pages/news_releases.html?d=212928

Currently, India has several tires to defend itself and UCAV is not the most important tool for it (at least for now). Imagine the training, maintainenace and set-up one will require to operate such machines. An urgent requirement is for the MMRCA (because of the depleting squadron strength and old fighter jets). India's defense decisions and procurements (like any other nation around the world) are taken in consultation with the Air force, Army and Navy.
I understand your concern but talking in a forum does not make one smarter and knowledgeable than a nation's defense academy (no offense please). I hope my reply reassures you about Indian defense needs. In any case this is not the thread for discussing about UCAV any further.


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## abdulbarijan

I needed to know something ...
Amongst the MMRCA contenders only the superviper had an AESA radar to offer 
so will the IAF get the Euorotyphoon or rafale that are leading the MMRCA contract with the current configuration or with AESA upgrades as both of the aircrafts do have a future project of AESA radar installation


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## SpArK

abdulbarijan said:


> I needed to know something ...
> Amongst the MMRCA contenders only the superviper had an AESA radar to offer
> so will the IAF get the Euorotyphoon or rafale that are leading the MMRCA contract with the current configuration or with AESA upgrades as both of the aircrafts do have a future project of AESA radar installation


 
Wrong.. Super hornet, Mig-35 and Rafale has got their AESA ready.

AESA is a _compulsory_ requirement for the whole MRCA deal.. The delay you see is due to IAF waiting for these newer fighters to fully mature so that it can choose the best from the best.


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## luckyyy

SpArK said:


> Wrong.. Super hornet, Mig-35 and Rafale has got their AESA ready.
> 
> AESA is a _compulsory_ requirement for the whole MRCA deal.. The delay you see is due to IAF waiting for these newer fighters to fully mature so that it can choose the best from the best.


 
if AESA is so importent then why IAF didn't go for fitting the AESA radar on their mig-29 upgrade ?


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## SpArK

luckyyy said:


> if AESA is so importent then why IAF didn't go for fitting the AESA radar on their mig-29 upgrade ?


 
Different deals different objectives.. that why no AESA for migs 21, 29s , Jaguars and mirages.. 

Even though i would like it be just like Mig-35.. dont know whats wrong with MoD babus.


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## luckyyy

SpArK said:


> Different deals different objectives.. that why no AESA for migs 21, 29s , Jaguars and mirages..
> 
> Even though i would like it be just like Mig-35.. dont know whats wrong with MoD babus.


 
mig-21 going to retire , so no point fitting a AESA on it..
no where to get the AESA for Jaguars and mirages.. ....british and franch still developing their AESA..

and the isreal has denied the AESA export under US pressure..

so the only AESA was available was the russian...

but stiil , if
if IAF won't want a AESA radar on mig-29 then why blame MoD babus , blame directly on IAF officers...

point is that if these upgraded mig-29 going to fly for next 15-20 years , and IAF satisfied without AESA radar , makes the case that AESA is not big thing in the eyes of the IAF ........


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## SpArK

luckyyy said:


> if IAF won't want a AESA radar on mig-29 then why blame MoD babus , blame directly on IAF officers...
> 
> point is that if these upgraded mig-29 going to fly for next 15-20 years , and IAF satisfied without AESA radar , makes the case that AESA is not big thing in the eyes of the IAF ........


 

It cant be an IAF decision for sure.. better negotiations would have made it possible... Also the timing of MRCA with Mig-35 and Aesa would have worked against it.. bad timing i should say..


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## luckyyy

SpArK said:


> It cant be an IAF decision for sure.. better negotiations would have made it possible... Also the timing of MRCA with Mig-35 and Aesa would have worked against it.. bad timing i should say..


 
i never heard that IAF was ever intrested in AESA for mig-29 upgrade..
it was surely IAF decision..


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## sancho

angeldemon_007 said:


> I really hope our policy-makers wok out this deal cleverly, we can also ask for talarion uav partnership. EADS is most likely to lose UAV contest and then it will look for partners from countries like India and Brazil. I really hope we do better negotiations like Brazil did.
> 
> If we go for US, we should ask for Predators. If we go for Rafale, then we could ask for partnership in Neuron or could ask for some DCNS new design like Swordfish or barracuda.



First of all, you didn't read the article till the end right? Because it was stated that Brazil tried to form such an co-development in 2009 and kind of link it with FX2 competiton, but it obviously failed, because their airforce now ordered Israeli UAVs.

Secondly, we will never get partnerships on Predators, or NEURON, or similar US UCAVs, because that are their high techs for the future and nobody will share them so easily.
What we can do is combine MMRCA and other competitions, to get more advantages in terms of ToT, JV and co-developments on other developments. The Europeans would offer consultancy on our AURA development, while Russia might even offer partnerships (with the lack of fundings). The US instead won't allow such developments and sees India only as an outsourcing alternative for non critical parts (F18SH gun bay, S92 cabin...) so far, but joint developments with a real partner status are not in their interests.




luckyyy said:


> but stiil , if
> if IAF won't want a AESA radar on mig-29 then why blame MoD babus , blame directly on IAF officers...
> 
> *point is that if these upgraded mig-29 going to fly for next 15-20 years* , and IAF satisfied without AESA radar , makes the case that AESA is not big thing in the eyes of the IAF ........


 
You point out the right thing, but fall into the wrong conclusion! AESA is important for Indian forces, that's why all new fighters except the Mig 29K / KUBs will get them as soon as they are available. Upgrading older fighters with AESA instead, that has only a limited service life left, is too costly, that's why they get more cost-effective MMR radars (Zhuk ME, RDY, Elta 2032).

The Russian AESA is not ready, only the early prototypes with very less TR modules and even less modes are available. That's why the 29Ks will get AESA only with the next upgrade, while N-LCA (based on LCA MK2) is already planed with AESA radar. The only non US AESA ready for production, is the RBE 2 and although we could get it for Mirage 2000 (was flighttested on this version too), it simply would not be worth the costs.
In regard of MMRCA there are even several points to think about:

1) AESA radar is compulsory as a minimum requirement!

That means, the wining fighter must offer it, which gives EF and Gripen, some problems, because they offer older EF T2 and Gripen C/D first.

2) ToT and costs!
Our indigenous AESA development was not accepted by the forces, therefor a co-development is needed. Any useful ToT that helps us in the development, will add to our industrial capabilities and if we can combine the co-development with MMRCA, it will be more cost effective by using same techs, possibly even the same radar for LCA and MMRCA!

3) Not the fighter with the highest detection range will win! 
Because they all will most likely fall short to upgraded MKI AESA radar and FGFA AESA anyway, fulfilling the minimum range and mode requirements seems to be more important.


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## SpArK




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## SpArK




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## sancho

*MMRCA line-up at Aero India 2011:*


*F18SH and EF*
















*More here*
Chindits: Typhoons To Remove Their Packaging Tomorrow !!

*
UAE F16 B60 and US F16 B???*










*Rafale*





*More here*
Livefist: AERO INDIA: The Dassault Rafale's First Public Appearance In India


*Gripen C an D*

Reactions: Like Like:
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## the rafter

*UK defence official says Eurofigther Typhoon is not expensive, IBN Live News*

Bangalore, Feb 8 (PTI) A top UK defence official today dismissed suggestions that the offer of Eurofighter Typhoon, one of the contenders for the USD ten billion medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) contract in India, is "overpriced". Responding to questions at a press conference here, Air Marshal Leeson, Chief of Material Air, Royal Air Force, said he did not support the view that the Typhoon offer was "expensive". If one assessed its capability, it's actually a cost-effective solution", he argued. "I don't accept that Eurofighter Typhoon is very expensive". He said Typhoon compares "extraordinarily well" vis-a-vis "through life costs". The four Eurofighter partner countries are Germany, the UK, Italy and Spain. Meanwhile, Richard Paniguian, Head of UK Trade & Investment's Defence and Security Organisation (UKTI DSO), said the UK's defence, science and technology laboratories were set for signing a "letter of arrangement" with India's Defence Research and Development Organisation. He termed this proposed agreement a "very important step in binding together our scientific and technology programmes". "In the UK, we want closer collaboration with India in science and technology", Paniguian added. British Minister for Defence Equipment Support and Technology, Peter Luff, is leading a large defence and business delegation to Aero India 2011 commencing here tomorrow. Close to 40 UK companies are expected to visit the five-day show. "Every UK company who has made this journey to Aero India is looking for the opportunity to build partnership with their counterparts here in India", Paniguian said.


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## the rafter

*UPDATE 1-Swedish Saab to open R&D unit in India | Reuters*

Swedish defence and aerospace group Saab AB plans to open a research and development centre in India "soon," as it looks to boost its presence in one of the fastest growing aircraft markets, its chief executive said on Tuesday.

The Swedish firm plans to add 300 engineers over five years, Hakan Buskhe told a media briefing.


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## jha

*Gripen for Air Force M-MRCA - Sweden Promises Full, True Tech Transfer*




At a press briefing on the eve of Aero India 2011 here in Bangalore, Swedish Ministry of Defence official Mr. Hakan Jevrell promised true and full technology transfer for the Saab Gripen fighter jet. Saab is pitching the Gripen fighter jet for the USD 11 billion Air Force Multi-Role Combat Aircraft competition.

Mr Hakan Jevrell, representing the Swedish government, focused his message on full support, long term co-operation, full and true technology transfer, zero-corruption and high levels of integrity. In addition to Mr. Hakan Jevrell, the press briefing featured Mr. Hakan Bushke, CEO of Saab and Mr. Inderjit Sial who is the country head for Saab in India.

Saab CEO Mr. Hakan Bushke complemented Mr. Jevrell's message by announcing the creation of a Research and Development center in India which would be operational in five years with 300-500 Indian engineers. His message stressed on the importance of India as a design and manufacturing hub in addition to being a genuine large long-term market.

Mr. Eddy de la Motte, Campaign Director for Gripen promised full Transfer-of-Technology (ToT) on *all critical sub components including AESA radar*. Saab officials further revealed tie ups with HAL with components from Saab featuring on export variants of HAL Dhruv Advanced Light Helicopters that were sold in South America.


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## duhastmish

*AERO INDIA: Boeing reveals advanced Super Hornet options *





Boeing has unveiled a series of advanced options for international customers of the F-18 E/F Super Hornet, including *conformal fuel tanks, a pod for the internal carriage of weapons, an internally-mounted infrared search and track (IRST) sensor, and enhanced engine performance. *

The new options could be available for Super Hornets delivered from *2015 onwards,* though the options can be *retrofitted to Block II* versions of the aircraft, says Boeing. *The options are currently in the "concept definition phase."*

Boeing says that one of these options, *15-20% improved performance for the aircraft's two General Electric F414 engines*, was offered to India in the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) competition.

The conformal fuel tanks will be able to carry up to 3,000lbs of additional fuel, while reducing the aircraft's drag and improving its lift, says Boeing. 

The *enclosed weapons pod will both reduce drag and improve the aircraft's low observable characteristics as compared with weapons carried externally.* The pod will be able to carry up 2,000lb of munitions. Alternatively, *two enclosed weapons pods can be carried under the aircraft's inboard weapons pylons.*

"Ninety five percent of missions don't require stealth, but this pod is for the five percent that do require more stealth," says a Boeing spokesman.

Another option will be a cockpit display featuring a single, *11x19in display with improved graphics and a touch screen interface*. The screen will allow pilots to manipulate flight and combat data on a single large screen. The large screen will also be more effective at displaying information produced by the aircraft's APG-79 active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar when operating in multiple modes, such as air-to-air and air-to-ground.

The *IRST sensor will be slung under the nose to the gun bay door. While US fighters typically don't have an internal IRST capability - instead relying on AESA - IRST is stipulated in India's MMRCA request for proposals. *
-x-x-x-x--x--x--x-x-x-x-
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2011/02/09/352926/aero-india-boeing-reveals-advanced-super-hornet-options.html

--x-x-x--x-x-x-x-x--x-x

*sounds very good option way more stealthy and advance avionics, pilot friendly interface. 

lets see the tot option. things are getting heated up.*


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## rockstarIN

luckyyy said:


> i never heard that IAF was ever intrested in AESA for mig-29 upgrade..
> it was surely IAF decision..


 
In cost-Benefit analysis, it might not feasible to go AESA for Mig-29, and the Migs are already old.


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## sancho

Here is an interview with Rick McCrary, the Director of International Business Development of Boeing Military Aircraft, Boeing Defense, Space & Security. Much PR, especially when he talks about the other contenders (including F16IN), but he is confirming some interesting points about the F18SH.


Video one, minute 10:00:



> optimised for strike, very capable A2A, *but it handles A2A with technology, not with speed and acceleration*. Because the same thing that makes it a great shortfield airplane, makes it not a very fast airplane, *it's got a fat wing*




minute 10:58



> The combination of AESA radar and a long range BVR missile is how you protect your fleet, *but it's really more for self defense, then to run a clear sky scenario*




Video 2, minute 2:08



> The navy had a plan for the EPE engine, we did that on the classic one (F18 Hornet), so we developed an EPE motor, not for the navy actually, but for Kuwait, because the high temperature operations wanted more thrust, so we've done this before. For the navy (now coming back to the Super Hornet), *will they buy an EPE if somebody else pay to develop it*? Yes, but what they probably will do is, to dial it back and just have an extended life.




YouTube - Rick McCrary-Boeing "Extolling F/A-18 Super Hornet" Part 01

YouTube - Rick McCrary-Boeing "Extolling F/A-18 Super Hornet" Part -02


So much for F18SH having less drag, but once again *official* confirmation that it is mainly a bomb truck and not really useful as a fighter. It has good techs and weapons, while the platform is nothing special at all and designd for the needs of an USN carrier fighter.
It also confirms once again, that the EPE engine and latest MAWS and LWR are on offer as options in the MMRCA, but needs additional fundings for development and integration, which increases the costs again.

Bottom line is, even with additional options, the F18SH won't be on a same tech level as the Eurocanards, but will be closer in terms of costs again.
The chances of F18SH now purely are based on political points only and if they don't fulfill the technical requirements, it will be interesting to see how GoI and MoD wants to shortlist them?


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## the rafter

*AERO INDIA: Eurofighter reveals offer to produce navalised Typhoon*

The Eurofighter consortium is offering India the opportunity to acquire a new version of its Typhoon for use from a future indigenous aircraft carrier, with the first firm details of the proposal having emerged at the show.
One of six contenders battling for the Indian air force's 126-aircraft medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) deal, Eurofighter is here touting the potential of a navalised development which has already been studied in detail in the UK.
"If Typhoon wins MMRCA then India will have the indigenous skills to develop a navalised version," says Paul Hopkins, BAE Systems' vice-president business development (air) India. "This is a perfect opportunity for the nation to add aircraft with both land and sea capabilities."
Being shown in model form for the first time this week, the European type would receive several new features to support its proposed life at sea. These include a new, stronger landing gear, a modified arrestor hook and thrust-vectoring control nozzles for its two Eurojet EJ200 turbofan engines. The latter would enable the fighter to approach the vessel at a reduced speed without restricting pilot vision by requiring an increased angle of attack.
Eurofighter says only localised strengthening would be required on some fuselage sections near the landing gear, and to the EJ200. Conformal fuel tanks could also be integrated with the airframe to extend the strike aircraft's range.
Video footage being shown in the Eurofighter and BAE exhibit areas includes recent simulation-based imagery of tests made using adapted flight control software and new engine modelling. Sporting Indian navy markings, the navalised Typhoon is depicted taking off from a deck space similar to that aboard the ex-Russian navy aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov, which is now being modified for Indian use.
Also of interest for Indian applications is a new weapons option being displayed for the first time with a full-scale model of the Typhoon. Working in conjunction with Saab and Diehl, Eurofighter is offering the RBS15 anti-ship missile as a future payload for the multi-role fighter.
The company is also showcasing technologies including an active electronically scanned array radar offered for the Typhoon, and providing demonstrations with a BAE-developed smart helmet display system for the type.

*Looks like the naval version of Typhoon will have TVC (Thrust Vectoring Control)*


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## jha

*RAFALE gone from Brazil's competition...Another Failure for DASSAULT..*

*Brazil seeks better terms in Boeing jet bid-source*

* *Rousseff voices preference for Boeing in jets tende*r

* Brazil seeks more guarantees on technology, better terms

* Rousseff sees deal as way of bolstering ties with U.S. (Adds details, context)

By Brian Winter

SAO PAULO, Feb 8 (Reuters) - *Brazilian President Dilma Rousseff has told visitors she believes Boeing's (BA.N) F-18 is the best jet among three finalists in a multi-billion dollar Air Force fighter tender, but she is still pressing for better terms on technology transfers that are critical to any deal.*

Rousseff raised the issue of the jet tender during a meeting in Brasilia on Monday with U.S. Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner, sources with knowledge of the conversation told Reuters. They spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the talks.

Rousseff told Geithner she considered the purchase of at least three dozen jets as a way to not only modernize Brazil's Air Force but also potentially to improve strategic and trade ties with the United States -- a major goal of her foreign policy since taking office on Jan. 1.

However, Rousseff said she remained concerned about the transfers of proprietary technology that Brazil wants as a way to help develop its own defense industry as part of any deal.

She is seeking both improved terms from Boeing and further guarantees from the U.S. government that it will allow sensitive military technology to change hands, the sources said.

The other finalists in the bidding process are the Rafale jet built by France's Dassault (AVMD.PA) and the Gripen NG produced by Sweden's Saab (SAABb.ST).

_Rousseff's comments -- plus her previous decision to delay the tender instead of immediately awarding it to Dassault, as many of her defense chiefs wanted -- suggest that she is leaning toward the Boeing bid but is still pressing companies to come up with better terms in a deal that will shape Brazil's defense alliances for decades to come._ [ID:nN18151639]

A spokesman for Rousseff's office declined comment.

Boeing spokeswoman Marcia Costley said the technology transfer guarantee was an issue that would be decided by the two governments.

The company is willing to provide Brazil with further technological know-how and other assistance in areas such as transport, satellites and weapons systems as part of the deal, she added.

"Boeing has the capability and resources to live up to its promises on ... technology transfer and the track record to prove it," Costley said via e-mail.

UPDATE 1-Brazil seeks better terms in Boeing jet bid-source | Reuters


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## jha

Maybe its time to go for advanced Super-Hornet and get the most extensive range of weapons..

Another shocker for RAFALE fans..


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## the rafter

From all this fanfare and displays at Aero India '11, my guess is that MoD's 2 shortlist jets could be:
1) Eurofighter Typhoon (info could have leaked or have been informed about it and probably thats why UK and Germany are taking so much lead in projecting Typhoon and its future road map).

UK defence official says Eurofigther Typhoon is not expensive, IBN Live News
AERO INDIA: Eurofighter reveals offer to produce navalised Typhoon

2) Boeing F-A/18 Super Hornet: Also taking lead in showing future roadmap in Aero India.

AERO INDIA: VIDEO - Boeing reveals advanced Super Hornet options

This is my opinion, I welcome more discussions and everyone's opinion.


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## sancho

jha said:


> Maybe its time to go for advanced Super-Hornet and get the most extensive range of weapons..
> 
> Another shocker for RAFALE fans..


 


> *sources with knowledge of the conversation told Reuters*.


 


Here some Eurofighter PR, but with interesting reports and pics about the Indra Dhanush excercise, MMRCA competition and the naval Typhoon:

http://www.eurofighter.com/fileadmin/web_data/downloads/efworld/ef-world_1-2011.pdf


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## sancho

the rafter said:


> From all this fanfare and displays at Aero India '11, my guess is that MoD's 2 shortlist jets could be:
> 1) Eurofighter Typhoon (info could have leaked or have been informed about it and probably thats why UK and Germany are taking so much lead in projecting Typhoon and its future road map).
> 
> UK defence official says Eurofigther Typhoon is not expensive, IBN Live News
> AERO INDIA: Eurofighter reveals offer to produce navalised Typhoon
> 
> 2) Boeing F-A/18 Super Hornet: Also taking lead in showing future roadmap in Aero India.
> 
> AERO INDIA: VIDEO - Boeing reveals advanced Super Hornet options
> 
> This is my opinion, I welcome more discussions and everyone's opinion.


 
Both is actually not surprising, UK and Germany are the leading countries in the EF programm and as the reports showed, Boeing had to offer "some" options, to fulfill the RFP requirements. 

The problem is, that both fighters are meant exactly for the opposite roles, the EF is best in A2A, the F18SH is best in A2G. However, that's not what we need, because we need a true multi role fighter and making the EF more capable in A2G (more weapons, possibly CFTs), or the F18SH in A2A (EPE engines, upgraded sensors) means additional costs.


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## the rafter

sancho said:


> Both is actually not surprising, UK and Germany are the leading countries in the EF programm and as the reports showed, Boeing had to offer "some" options, to fulfill the RFP requirements.
> 
> The problem is, that both fighters are meant exactly for the opposite roles, the EF is best in A2A, the F18SH is best in A2G. However, that's not what we need, because we need a true multi role fighter and making the EF more capable in A2G (more weapons, possibly CFTs), or the F18SH in A2A (EPE engines, upgraded sensors) means additional costs.



I totally agree with you. But if you look at the requirements of IAF, they initially need 18 directly from the manufacturer and rest (108) will be manufactured/assembled by HAL (2015-17). This gives the manufacturers enough time to incorporate the upgrades and retrofit later (i.e. Eurofighter maturing with AESA and A to G and/or Super Hornet improving on its A to A and other upgrades).


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## rockstarIN

Come on Dassult, few options,

-Half the price for M2K upgrade

-Full ToT for Rafale

-Rafale AESA for LCA

-Co develop AMCA


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## sancho

the rafter said:


> I totally agree with you. But if you look at the requirements of IAF, they initially need 18 directly from the manufacturer and rest (108) will be manufactured/assembled by HAL (2015-17). This gives the manufacturers enough time to incorporate the upgrades and retrofit later (i.e. Eurofighter maturing with AESA and A to G and/or Super Hornet improving on its A to A and other upgrades).


 
You have to differ here between techs and capabilities that are funded and can be added later, like the EF AESA (although the RFP requirements wants them from the start and although it might be immature), or METEOR missile and things like EFs A2G weapons, TVC, or CFTs, the EPE engine, or the EWS sensors of the F18SH. These things needs our money first, to start these developments, or integrations, otherwise they can't be retrofitted at all. 
The question then would be, why should IAF want to wait for an EF to mature, offer all techs and capabilities, for higher costs, when they can have these things earlier and already integrated?

Not to mention the naval MMRCA competition as well, were the EF for sure is one of the worst options at all. Not developed, no interests from other customers and all shown capabilities are not available and has to be funded additionally:








Going by this model, we have to fund:

- the redesign to make it carrier capable
- development and integration of CFTs
- at least the integration of TVC
- integration of RBS-15 anti ship missile (shown on the inner pylons, which is questionable anyway)

Now compare that with Rafale, or F18SH:

- carrier fighters available
- both can carry up to 5 fuel tanks (EF only 3, with less fuel) and CFTs are optional (Rafale has already developed and tested them)
- both have anti ship and way more A2G weapons integrated
- only TVC is not available 

Again, if we can have a fighter that already is operational, with the capabilities we need, for lower costs and not risks of delays, why should we wait for EF? Same question for IAF, or IN.


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## sancho

> *European fighters lead MMRCA race*
> 
> 
> It was a no-holds-barred duel at Aero India 2011 for a $10-billion (Rs 45,500 crore) prize. Turn by turn, four of the worlds most advanced fighter aircraft roared into the sky, keenly aware of the watching eyes of Indian ministry of defence (MoD) officials who would decide which of them was best suited for the Indian Air Forces order of 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA).
> Their performances mirrored each fighters fortunes in the MMRCA race. In multiple interviews with MoD officials, IAF pilots and vendor representatives, Business Standard has learned exactly where the MMRCA race currently stands. None of the contenders have been officially eliminated in the IAFs flight evaluation report, but the heavy liabilities that some are carrying have already reduced this contest to an all-European race.
> 
> The clearest performance was that of the Russian MiG-35, which has not shown up at all at Aero India 2011. *After multiple problems during the flight evaluation trials, it is regarded by the IAF as little more than an upgraded MiG-29.* The Russian fighter is effectively out of the race.
> 
> Only marginally less dismal was the Lockheed Martin F-16IN Super Viper, which travelled to Bangalore but did not participate in the inaugural aerobatics shoot-out.
> 
> Defence minister A K Antony insisted today that political considerations would play no part in the MMRCA selection, but his officials were less diplomatic. *The F-16 is in the race only in name; the US will not be allowed to supply the same aircraft to both India and Pakistan, said a senior MoD official*. Besides, the F-16 has come to the end of its development cycle. There is no scope for improving it further.
> 
> Lockheed Martin seems to know its India campaign is blighted. Over the past two months, company officials and even the Pentagon, the US defence headquarters, have shifted the focus to the F-35, the fifth generation stealth fighter that Lockheed Martin is developing. But while the Pentagons acquisition chief, Ashton Carter, has signalled American willingness to include India in the F-35 programme, the Indian MoD is not persuaded.
> 
> On getting a fifth generation fighter from the US, Antony replied, *Already we are engaged with Russia to produce a fifth generation fighter. No other country has offered us these technologies in the past. We are way ahead now [in the partnership with Russia]. There is no question of going back*.
> 
> The other American contender, the F/A-18 Super Hornet, regaled spectators with a superb display of combat manoeuvring, Showcasing its history as a combat fighter, the F/A-18 was the only contender that flew with missiles fitted under its wings, which is avoided in aerobatics because of the resulting drag. But though the Super Hornet was the tightest turner, its aerobatics were conducted at slow speeds. *That sluggishness is also true of its campaign in India.
> 
> We scored the F/A-18 poorly during flight evaluation, says an IAF officer who was closely involved.*
> 
> That leaves the three European contenders: the Eurofighter (from a four-country consortium), the Dasault Rafale (from france) and the Saab Gripen (Sweden). Each of them put up a superb display of high-speed aerobatics, performing loops, barrel rolls, and spells of inverted flying that clearly pushed the boundaries of the aircrafts flight envelopes.
> 
> The Gripen showed enormous agility in its vertical handling, something that would allow it to climb above the enemy fighter in a dogfight, to an advantageous killing position. At the end of his display, the Gripens pilot displayed how little runway the fighter needs to land, stopping dead in barely 900 ft.
> 
> But IAF officers point out two key drawbacks to the Gripens campaign: *The Gripens AESA radar is the least developed of all the MMRCA contenders; and, being a single-engine fighter, it carries significantly less weaponry than the big twin-engine contenders*.
> 
> The twin-engine advantage was immediately evident when the Rafale and the Eurofighter took to the skies, lashing the spectators with a blast of sound. There was little to choose between both those aircraft, their High-G (sharp turn); High-Alpha (slow flying) aerobatics leaving the spectators clapping.
> 
> *The MMRCA contest is now between the Eurofighter and the Rafale*, says an IAF officer associated with the flight evaluation. It will boil down to price. But if the MoD accepts a smaller fighter, with a radar that has some way to go, the economically-priced Gripen could be the dark horse that wins.



European fighters lead MMRCA race


It's an Ajai Shukla article, so should be taken carefully I guess.


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## jha

^^^ Another Shukla blockbuster...Lets see how much truth is in it..?


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## ANG

Hi, please watch the video. Thanks!

AERO INDIA: VIDEO - Boeing reveals advanced Super Hornet options


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## Water Car Engineer




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## SpArK

*MMRCA Contract By Sept, Unless Spoilsports Shaft Our Decision: IAF Chief​*





*"Price negotiations for the MMRCA begin in a week or two.* I am hopeful of a decision by September this year, unless dissatisfied vendors put a spoke in the wheel (sic)," said Indian Air Force chief PV Naik today at Aero India 2011. The chief pointed out that all hurdles pertaining to offsets had been sorted out, and that if price negotiations began on schedule in the next two weeks, he was hopeful of a final contract decision by September. "But you know how it is," the chief said, "Others may try to put a spoke in the wheel. And if that happens, everything takes its own course."

In other developments, the IAF chief announced that the IAF Mirage-2000 upgrade contract would be signed before the end of March this year. "The draft report is with the MoD, it will be concluded this financial year," said the IAF Deputy Chief. Air Chief Naik commented, "It was a very difficult negotiation, but results will now come very fast."

The IAF chief announced that his service would shortly order 50 more Mi-17-V5 helicopters from Russia as a follow on to the 80 contracted in 2008 and which begin delivery in March.

Livefist: MMRCA Contract By Sept, Unless Spoilsports Shaft Our Decision: IAF Chief

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## ganimi kawa

*Making a splash at the Aero India show in Bangalore. Broadsword has learned that the European fighters have taken pole position in the MMRCA competition*


In multiple interviews with MoD officials, IAF pilots and vendor representatives, Business Standard has learned exactly where the MMRCA race currently stands. None of the contenders have been officially eliminated in the IAFs flight evaluation report, but the heavy liabilities that some are carrying have already reduced this contest to an all-European race.

The clearest performance was that of the Russian MiG-35, which has not shown up at all at Aero India 2011. *After multiple problems during the flight evaluation trials, it is regarded by the IAF as little more than an upgraded MiG-29.* The Russian fighter is effectively out of the race.
*Only marginally less dismal was the Lockheed Martin F-16IN Super Viper,* which travelled to Bangalore but did not participate in the inaugural aerobatics shoot-out.

Defence minister A K Antony insisted today that political considerations would play no part in the MMRCA selection, but his officials were less diplomatic. *The F-16 is in the race only in name; the US will not be allowed to supply the same aircraft to both India and Pakistan, *said a senior MoD official. Besides, the F-16 has come to the end of its development cycle. There is no scope for improving it further.

Lockheed Martin seems to know its India campaign is blighted. Over the past two months, company officials and even the Pentagon, the US defence headquarters, have shifted the focus to the F-35, the fifth generation stealth fighter that Lockheed Martin is developing. But while the Pentagons acquisition chief, Ashton Carter, has signalled American willingness to include India in the F-35 programme, the Indian MoD is not persuaded.

On getting a fifth generation fighter from the US, Antony replied,* Already we are engaged with Russia to produce a fifth generation fighter. No other country has offered us these technologies in the past. We are way ahead now [in the partnership with Russia]. There is no question of going back.*

The other American contender, the F/A-18 Super Hornet, regaled spectators with a superb display of combat manoeuvring, Showcasing its history as a combat fighter, the F/A-18 was the only contender that flew with missiles fitted under its wings, which is avoided in aerobatics because of the resulting drag. But though the Super Hornet was the tightest turner, its aerobatics were conducted at slow speeds. That sluggishness is also true of its campaign in India.

*We scored the F/A-18 poorly during flight evaluation, says an IAF officer who was closely involved.*

That leaves the three European contenders: the Eurofighter (from a four-country consortium), the Dasault Rafale (from france) and the Saab Gripen (Sweden). Each of them put up a superb display of high-speed aerobatics, performing loops, barrel rolls, and spells of inverted flying that clearly pushed the boundaries of the aircrafts flight envelopes.

The Gripen showed enormous agility in its vertical handling, something that would allow it to climb above the enemy fighter in a dogfight, to an advantageous killing position. At the end of his display, the Gripens pilot displayed how little runway the fighter needs to land, stopping dead in barely 900 ft.

But IAF officers point out two key drawbacks to the Gripens campaign: *The Gripens AESA radar is the least developed of all the MMRCA contenders; and, being a single-engine fighter, it carries significantly less weaponry than the big twin-engine contenders.*

The twin-engine advantage was immediately evident when the Rafale and the Eurofighter took to the skies, lashing the spectators with a blast of sound. There was little to choose between both those aircraft, their High-G (sharp turn); High-Alpha (slow flying) aerobatics leaving the spectators clapping.

*The MMRCA contest is now between the Eurofighter and the Rafale, says an IAF officer associated with the flight evaluation. It will boil down to price. But if the MoD accepts a smaller fighter, with a radar that has some way to go, the economically-priced Gripen could be the dark horse that wins.*

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## SpArK

> We scored the F/A-18 poorly during flight evaluation, says an IAF officer who was closely involved



Great.

Now the chocolaty _Superbug fangirl_ is going to be angry on this.

I think now the EF is leading. The IAF chief had commented today that the negotiations for the Mirage upgrade was a difficult one..so it will be in back of the head regarding Rafale.


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## Agnostic_Indian

^^ I WISH THINGS HAPPEN AS MENTIONED ABOVE.. I AM READY TO ACCEPT ANY OF THOSE THREE.. MY FIRST CHOICE IS 
1.TYPHOON 
2.RAFALE 
3.GRIPEN


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## SpArK

*Found this incredible pic...could this be the line up?* 




Edit: oops 9000 flying hours... i mean posts for me

Open image in a new window for a bigger pic.. and if in need of a high resolution one.. do let me know..

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## angeldemon_007

Check out this...Its all over the web...

*Ind to award USD 11 bn M-MRCA deal within one month*
BANGALORE: India will pick up by next one month the vendor for its biggest-ever military fighter deal for purchasing 126 Medium-Multirole Combat Aircraft at a cost of USD 11 billion, the contract of which is expected to be finalised by September. 

Addressing a press conference here, Air Chief Marshal P V Naik said all the problems related to the offsets proposals have been sorted out and if the bid losers "don't put spokes in the wheel," the deal would be finalised in the given timeframe. 

"We hope to start the contract negotiations in the next two to four weeks and the deal may be signed by September," he said. 

The IAF had submitted its field evaluation trial report on July 30 last year and the Defence Ministry has been going through it to determine the aircraft meeting IAF's requirement. 

Six aircraft including Russian MiG-35, American F-16 and F/A-18, Swedish Gripen, European Eurofighter and French Rafale are in the race for the multi-billion dollar contract. 

Naik said "unless dissatisfied vendors put spokes", which may involve getting clearances from the Central Vigilance Commission or legal proceedings, the deal would be finalised by September -- in the next fiscal. 

The IAF is planning to induct these aircraft to augment its number and replace the Russian-origin MiG series aircraft, which are on their way out of the service. 

Complementing the IAF team involved in the evaluation trials, Naik said the process was a "complicated" one as each aircraft had to be tested for 600 different parameters by the IAF. 

Under the procurement process, the Defence Ministry negotiates with the company offering the lowest price for the equipment required by respective services. 

Asked about the procurement of new cluster bombs from American firm Textron, he said that would be first put on the Jaguar deep penetration fighters by the IAF.


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## Agnostic_Indian

where is the link for the news..it must be old news


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## SpArK

bhagathsingh said:


> where is the link for the news..it must be old news


 
The news is of todays.. 2 contrasting ones.. one from IAF chief and one from Antony..

The link is in livefist too.


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## SpArK




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## SpArK




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## Agnostic_Indian

self delete....


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## SpArK




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## Agnostic_Indian

^got it chief and minister says same..If no trouble by september or else by 2012.


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## Paan Singh

upto maximum the deal will be extended till starting of 2012,its not bad although..
but till that time india will loose more 3-4 migs


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## rockstarIN

*India may announce MMRCA deal by Sept: IAF Chief*

BANGALORE (BNS): India is likely to sign the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) contract by September 2011, Indian Air Force (IAF) Chief-of-Staff P V Naik said Thursday.
*
&#8220;Commercial negotiations for the deal will begin in next two to three weeks and we will be signing the MMRCA contract by September this year,&#8221; the IAF Chief told reporters at Aero India 2011.
*
All six contenders for the big-ticket deal are participating in the aero show, pegged to be Asia&#8217;s largest air show.

*Earlier, Defence Minister AK Antony made it clear that no political considerations will come in the path while deciding the winner. He also said that the decision will be taken based on the requirements projected by the IAF.*

India's planned multi-billion dollar aircraft deal is the biggest contract ever since the 1990s. In 2001, IAF sent out its request for information (RFI) for the 126 fighters. After delays lasting almost 2 years beyond the planned December 2005 issue date, the Ministry of Defence finally announced a formal Request for Proposal (RFP) on August 2007.

Six global fighters &#8211; Lockheed Martin's F-16 Super Viper, Eurofighter's Typhoon, Russian United Aircraft Corporation's Mikoyan MiG-35, France's Dassault Aviation's Rafale, Swedish SAAB's Gripen and Boeing's F/A-18 Super Hornet &#8211; had submitted their bids in response to it.

India may announce MMRCA deal by Sept: IAF Chief - Brahmand.com

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## rockstarIN

SpArK said:


> Great.
> 
> *Now the chocolaty Superbug fangirl is going to be angry on this.*
> 
> I think now the EF is leading. The IAF chief had commented today that the negotiations for the Mirage upgrade was a difficult one..so it will be in back of the head regarding Rafale.


 
I know..I knoww


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## rockstarIN

SpArK said:


> Great.
> 
> Now the chocolaty _Superbug fangirl_ is going to be angry on this.
> 
> I think now the EF is leading. *The IAF chief had commented today that the negotiations for the Mirage upgrade was a difficult one..so it will be in back of the head regarding Rafale*.


 
There is enough room for Rafale..if they reduce price+free upgrade for Mk2


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## sancho

SpArK said:


> Great.
> 
> Now the chocolaty _Superbug fangirl_ is going to be angry on this.
> 
> I think now the EF is leading. The IAF chief had commented today that the negotiations for the Mirage upgrade was a difficult one..so it will be in back of the head regarding Rafale.


 

Hi Spark, as I said yesterday, that is an Ajai Shukla article, so should be taken carefully!

From all what we know (and what I've heared) the F18SH had some issues, but one thing is for sure, at least 1 US fighter will be shortlisted for sure, either for political reasons, or simply to put pressure on the Europeans.

However, lets assume it's really about EF and Rafale, it is also clear which fighter is prefered by whom!

*EF offers* - the best offset package, at least equal ToT, political advantages of 4 partner countries (although only Germany and UK are on a level with France) 

It's undeniabley the choice of the industry and politics!
*
Rafale offers* - commonality to present IAF fleet, already placed logistics, maintenance and support routes, ease in training pilots and ground crews, clearly the better multi role capabilities and is more mature.

Which makes it the obvious choice for IAF and with the advantage of commonality and reduced costs at higher numbers, also for IN. More over, the fact that Rafale has a lower unit cost and needs less additional upgrades will should be a point that makes finance ministry happy.

So when it's up between these two, Rafale is L1 and offers the most advantages for our forces, while EF offers better industrial and "possibly" (UK, ITA and to some extend Germany are highly bound to US) more political advantages.

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## rockstarIN

Im happy with anyone - EF or Rafale..


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## SpArK

sancho said:


> Hi Spark, as I said yesterday, that is an Ajai Shukla article, so should be taken carefully!
> 
> From all what we know (and what I've heared) the F18SH had some issues, but one thing is for sure, at least 1 US fighter will be shortlisted for sure, either for political reasons, or simply to put pressure on the Europeans.
> 
> However, lets assume it's really about EF and Rafale, it is also clear which fighter is prefered by whom!
> 
> *EF offers* - the best offset package, at least equal ToT, political advantages of 4 partner countries (although only Germany and UK are on a level with France)
> 
> It's undeniabley the choice of the industry and politics!
> *
> Rafale offers* - commonality to present IAF fleet, already placed logistics, maintenance and support routes, ease in training pilots and ground crews, clearly the better multi role capabilities and is more mature.
> 
> Which makes it the obvious choice for IAF and with the advantage of commonality and reduced costs at higher numbers, also for IN. More over, the fact that Rafale has a lower unit cost and needs less additional upgrades will should be a point that makes finance ministry happy.
> 
> So when it's up between these two, Rafale is L1 and offers the most advantages for our forces, while EF offers better industrial and "possibly" (UK, ITA and to some extend Germany are highly bound to US) more political advantages.


 
The mirage upgrade has nt yet been finalised and is expected in March.. will we see a negotiation based on the upgrade deal in off set talks beginning from a week or 2 ??


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## sancho

rockstar said:


> There is enough room for Rafale..if they reduce price+free upgrade for Mk2


 
I explained it before, it isn't that much costlier compared to the Mig 29 upgrade, as many believes, because it includes the price of the weapons too. When you look at the costs of the fighter upgrade only, the Mirage costs about $1.5 billions, while the Mig costs $900 millions + $275 millions for the engines (Russian engines has less life) = $1.175 billions.
That's why I don't think the price negotiations were that difficult, but like Jha once said, the switch of M2Ks role to the nuclear role, which could require more specific techs of the M2K-N:



> *Mirage 2000N*
> 
> The Mirage 2000N is the nuclear strike variant which was intended to carry the Aerospatiale Air-Sol Moyenne Portee (ASMP) nuclear stand-off missile. Initial flight tests of two prototypes began on February 3, 1983, and the Mirage 2000N entered operational service in 1988. A total of 75 were built.
> 
> *The fighter had strengthened wings for low-altitude operations, as well as low-level precision navigation/attack systems, built around the Dassault/Thales Antilope 5 radar, which was designed for the strike role and featured a terrain-avoidance capability.*
> 
> The ASMP missile is 5.38 meters long with a kerosene-powered ramjet that allows it to cruise at Mach 3 to a maximum range of 100 km carrying a nuclear warhead with a yield of 300 kT.



Dassault Mirage 2000N/2000D - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Altough I don't think we will get ASMP officially, even if range limited, the other changes could be done, or at least be requested by IAF, which knows about M2Ks capabilities quiet well.
Price is always an issue with French products, no doubt about that, but I do think there is more behind the M2K upgrade then we know.


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## rockstarIN

M2K-N? we have MKI for Nuke delivery right? as required by the Strategic command?


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## jha

Cost of Mirage upgrade was never a concern to me..We are getting damn good deal ..We should not just make opinions on half known facts..


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## sancho

jha said:


> Cost of Mirage upgrade was never a concern to me..We are getting damn good deal ..We should not just make opinions on half known facts..


 
I 2nd that, they did a good job in the past and will do it with the upgrade also for a long time!


P.S.



> *46-Minutes, 9G In A Rafale*
> 
> Just did a 46-minute sortie in a Rafale at Yelahanka, and have been informed that I'm the first Indian civilian to fly in the fighter. I flew with a Dassault test pilot. Photographer Vishal Jolapara has taken some truly stunning pictures of my flight, which I'll post shortly. And I'll post in detail about the flight later tonight.



http://livefist.blogspot.com/2011/02/46-minutes-9g-in-rafale.html


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## SpArK

Open the image in a seperate window..

Credits:sancho.

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## SpArK

*Aircraft deal: IAF fears bid losers may complain to CVC​*
*India is just about a month or two away from deciding the winner of the $10.4-billion contract for 126 combat aircraft, but the Indian Air Force (IAF) is afraid the losers among the six bidders for the deal might derail the process of quick acquisition by knocking on the corruption watchdogs doors.*

*The purchase process, which is at a very mature stage, is all set for the cost negotiation stage that will be decided in a week or two and the final winner for signing the contract would be decided by September, Air Chief Marshal Pradeep Vasant Naik told a press conference here Thursday at Aero India 2011 at Yelahanka air base.*

*But some dissatisfied vendor among those not chosen for cost negotiations may put a spoke in the wheel and derail the process by going to the Central Vigilance Commissioner with complaints leading to a delay, though we want to quickly sign the contract,* Naik said.

American aerospace majors Boeing and Lockheed Martin, Russian MiG-RAC, Swedish Saab, French Dassault and European consortium EADS are in the race for the deal whose tender was issued in August 2007.

The IAF completed the flight and weapons evaluation of the six contending aircraft F-16, F/A-18, MiG-35, Gripen, Rafale and Eurofighter Typhoon last year and submitted its report to the defense ministry, which is studying the capabilities of all the planes.

*When the cost negotiation stage is reached, the government is expected to call only one of the six companies for talks, thereby signaling that the other five firms are out of contention.
*

*Asked about the delay in finalizing the winner for the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) deal, whereas the IAF had carried out a quick and smooth flight and weapons evaluation, Naik said since the six aircraft were evaluated on 600 technical points, there were several queries and counter-queries from the defense ministry requiring a lot of education.*

Defense Minister Arackaparambil Kurian Antony said Wednesday that there would be no political interference in the MMRCA deal and that the winner would be chosen on merits and capabilities of the competing aircraft.

Antony said that the government would not be prejudiced against or in favor of any country but would go by the evaluation report of the IAF.

Aircraft deal: IAF fears bid losers may complain to CVC | StratPost


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## luckyyy

> When the cost negotiation stage is reached, the government is expected to call only one of the six companies for talks, thereby signaling that the other five firms are out of contention.



seem that they has decided for EUROFIGHTER .


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## satishkumarcsc

I think the IAF is pretty skeptical after what happened between Bell helicopters and the Eurocopter Eucril/Fennec deal. Remember the tender for the 197 LUH anyone? Bell knew pretty well they had been beaten fair and square but still insisted on complaining. And that is why they were nowhere to be seen in the re-tender.


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## the rafter

*Indian MMRCA tender RFP favours single engine aircraft: Lockheed Martin : Defense news*

Lockheed Martin, which is fielding its single engine F-16 in the Indian MMRCA competition,is of the view that the RFP for the tender actually favours single engine fighters due to its emphasis on life cycle costs.

As the life cycle costs of a single engine fighter are substantially lower than that of twin engine fighter, the former will have a clear edge over the latter in technical evaluation, said Orville Prinz, VP Business Development, India of Lockheed Martin. Prinz was speaking at a media briefing during the Aero India 2011 show.

The F-16 and the Saab Gripen are the only single engine fighters in the $10 billion competition to sell 126 fighters to the IAF. The others, the Furofighter, the Boeing F/A 18 and the Russian MiG 35 are twin engine fighters.

*AERO INDIA: Uncertainty over MMRCA time-frame*


> *A Boeing official sparked debate among the competitors at the show by predicting that three twin-engine aircraft will make the shortlist. Lockheed Martin and Saab were both quick to promote the through-life cost benefits of a single-engine design.*


http://www.flightglobal.com/article...-india-uncertainty-over-mmrca-time-frame.html


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## the rafter

*Eurofighter looks to India for partnership - The Times of India*
TNN, Feb 11, 2011, 06.11am IST

BANGALORE: European consortium Eurofighter is looking at India as an industrial partner to support its Eurofighter Typhoon programme. The consortium wants to integrate India into its Eurofighter programme to co-develop and co-produce future upgrades, enhancements, new sub-systems and software, said Bernhard Gerwert, chairman of the Supervisory Board of Eurofighter and the CEO of Cassidian Air Systems. 

The partnership is expected to catapult trained engineering capabilities in India and facilitate access to different technologies. "We are starting to develop a base for a comprehensive future supplier network which will plug India into the global Eurofighter supply chain," he said. Eurofighter is one of the six contenders for the Indian Air Force's 126 medium multi-role combat aicraft (MMRCA) deal worth $11 billion


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## the rafter

*IAF chief's googly on multi-role aircraft*
Ajai Shukla / Yelahanka/ Bangalore February 11, 2011, 0:16 IST
Says decision on Rs 45,500-cr buy within weeks; also assures Mirage deal conclusion next month.
Electrifying aerospace vendors at Aero India 2011 here, Indian Air Force chief, Air Chief Marshal P V Naik announced today that New Delhi would decide within two weeks about which medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) it would buy, and actually sign the $10 billion (Rs 45,500 crore) contract by September.
The CNC (Cost Negotiation Committee) is likely to start in a week or two. Taking that as the datum and giving (the CNC) another six-eight months, the contract is likely to be signed in September,&#8221; declared Naik.
The CNC is a group of officials that negotiates between the ministry of defence (MoD) and the winning vendor on a final price for the sale.

Naik&#8217;s boss, defence minister A K Antony, had stated here yesterday that the globally-watched contract would be finalised by the end of the next financial year, 2011-2012, i.e. by March 2012. By setting the deadline six months earlier, Naik appears to have put the MoD under pressure.

Asked by Business Standard for a clarification, Naik&#8217;s officiating deputy, Air Marshal R K Sharma, confirmed his chief&#8217;s announcement. He said the winning vendor would be issued an invitation within two weeks to appear for cost negotiations, while the CNC would actually meet within two months. An invitation to a vendor to appear in a CNC is tantamount to announcing the winner of a contract.

&#8220;The DAC (the MoD&#8217;s apex Defence Acquisition Council) will formalise the winner soon; we will then invite that company for negotiations,&#8221; said Sharma.

Six fighters are competing for the IAF contract: Boeing&#8217;s F/A-18 Super Hornet; Lockheed Martin&#8217;s F-16IN Super Viper; the MiG Corporation&#8217;s MiG-35; Saab&#8217;s Gripen NG; Dassault&#8217;s Rafale; and a four-nation European consortium&#8217;s Eurofighter. Executives from these companies say they are baffled by Naik&#8217;s announcement. Asked in late 2010 to rework their offset bids, and with no final date yet given for this, the MoD does not have a key element needed to decide a winner.

&#8220;Is the MoD going to decide the contract winner without examining the offset bids?&#8221; asks a bemused executive from one of the competing aircraft manufacturers.

*&#8216;Technical coaching&#8217;*
While no answers were forthcoming, the air chief did explain why little appears to have happened since July 2010, when the IAF gave its flight trial evaluation report to the MoD. Naik revealed the last six months had gone by in explaining to the MoD the technical nuances of the flight trials.

&#8220;There have been a lot of queries and counter-queries [between the MoD and the IAF]. It is such a complicated deal, and there is so much of technical detail involved&#8230; so there was a lot of, shall we say, education to be done so that the report was clearly understood in all its manifestations,&#8221; explained Naik.

The air chief also voiced his apprehension that the contract could be delayed by &#8220;dissatisfied vendors (who) put a spoke in the wheel&#8221;, using allegations of wrongdoing to trigger long-running probes by investigation agencies.

Yesterday, a defensive Antony had announced that political considerations would play no role in deciding the winner. That seemed to suggest the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS), which will be required to approve the contract after the CNC negotiates a final price, would merely rubber-stamp the IAF/MoD decision.

Other than the impending contract for 126 medium fighters to boost the IAF&#8217;s dwindling numbers, the IAF chief also announced the impending conclusion, &#8220;within this financial year&#8221;, of the contract to upgrade the air force&#8217;s 20-year-old fleet of 52 Mirage-2000 medium fighters. This upgrade, the subject of bitter negotiations between the IAF and French contractor Thales, will give the Mirage-2000 another 20 years of service life, by fitting on a new radar and a modern cockpit with state-of-the-art avionics and electronic warfare equipment.

While Thales had initially demanded $52 million per aircraft, the deal has been concluded, say IAF sources to Business Standard, at $39 million (Rs 177 crore) per aircraft.


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## the rafter

*Indian Officials Send Mixed Signals On Fighter Schedule | AVIATION WEEK*

Indian defense officials have given conflicting statements about the country&#8217;s long-awaited fighter selection, with Defense Minister A.K. Antony indicating the final choice will be pushed into 2012, but the country&#8217;s top air force official pointing to a selection this October.

Antony said at the Aero India air show that the selection of a winner in the Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) program &#8212; originally expected this year &#8212; was being pushed to March of next year, although a winnowing of contractors would still occur this year.

But Air Chief Marshal P.V. Naik said the final choice would be announced by October, and that price negotiations would begin in a week.

The dissonance was noticed. &#8220;This could be the Chief&#8217;s way of putting pressure on the government to speed the process as the military is concerned about its reduced squadron strength,&#8221; one official commented.

On static display at Aero India this week were the candidate fighters: the Boeing F/A-18, Dassault Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon, Lockheed Martin F-16 and Saab Gripen. The other contender - and the one most conspicuous by its absence - was the RSK MiG-35.

*According to one vendor, the last stage for submissions, which includes a review of offset obligations, has yet to occur. And before price negotiations can take place, the defense ministry must clarify the transfer of technology clause that been a bone of contention between the vendors and the government. A further amendment to India&#8217;s new defense procurement policy &#8212; released only last month &#8212; is expected to address these concerns.

&#8220;Under these circumstances, there is no way a decision can be made,&#8221; the vendor says.*

India&#8217;s recent defense procurement policy change allowed for offset requirements to be met not only by giving defense manufacturing work to India, but also manufacturing work related to commercial aviation and homeland security. One of the leading concerns has been whether the local defense industry could absorb all the offset work headed its way. Some U.S. and European companies lobbied for the policy change, arguing it is in India&#8217;s interest to have businesses that work across defense and civil programs.

Some executives involved in the MMRCA competition say another reason the government is procrastinating is because it was recently rocked by corruption scandals having to do with the issuance of telecommunications spectrum licenses. Government leaders want the local political situation to improve before making an announcement for the multibillion-dollar purchase of 126 MMRCA fighters.

&#8220;They want to make sure they have dotted all the I&#8217;s and crossed all the T&#8217;s,&#8221; says one executive involved in the competition, adding that &#8220;everything has to be transparent and above-board so as to avoid any complaints later on or any political backlash.&#8221;

Whatever decision India makes, it will reverberate overseas politically, as it will say a lot about how India sees the world and which bilateral relationship it seeks to enhance the most.


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## the rafter

*AERO INDIA: Boeing underlines Super Hornet's 'proven capability'*
The F/A-18E/F Super Hornet's proven combat capability and reduced total ownership costs are Boeing's key discriminators in India's medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) competition, the company says.
"We absolutely believe that the Super Hornet is an ideal weapon system as a complement to the [Indian air force's Sukhoi] Su-30," says Kory Matthews, vice-president F/A-18 and EA-18G programmes for Boeing Military Aircraft. "Multi-role capability is at the sweet-spot of this fighter."
Matthews notes that the US Navy's Super Hornet fleet is currently being flown at a rate of around 120,000h per year, and that over 100,000h has already been amassed under combat conditions. Crucially for the US Hornet industry team here this week - which also includes GE Aviation and Raytheon - the type's APG-79 is the only combat-proven active electronically scanned array radar in the contest, he says.
In terms of through-life costs, the USN's operation of the F/A-18E/F has shown the type to be "highly reliable and with excellent maintainability", Matthews says. For example, an average of just 12 maintenance man hours are currently required per flight hour, he adds.
With India expected to issue a shortlist within the next few months to narrow its current six-strong field for the MMRCA programme, Matthews speculates that it could pick three of the twin-engine candidates to advance to the next phase. "We've offered a fully compliant proposal with the Super Hornet, and believe it's ideally suited," he says.
The F/A-18F Super Hornet flying at the show each day is doing so with what the Boeing official describes as an "operationally-relevant" weapons load. Totalling almost 1,220kg (4,000lb), this includes two each of Raytheon's AIM-9X and AIM-120 air-to-air missiles and two Mk 82-series bombs.


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## sancho

> * The Rafale: the attraction of the show Aero India*
> 
> Two fighter jets Rafale Air Force are deployed on the Yelahanka air base in India at the international exhibition Aero India which runs from 9 to 13 February 2011. This is the first time the French Air Force contributes to this major event in the Indian aviation.
> 
> During the show, one of French hunters will be presented on static display for visitors, while the second will be led by Solo Display Pilot, Captain Cedric Ruet, air for a presentation. The demonstration of the Rafale is to highlight the qualities of the aircraft in terms of evolution, he says. This is to show the public the maneuverability, acceleration, power and agility of the aircraft on a flight of ten minutes. "A short time during which the Rafale enchants an audience of both professionals and novices of all ages.
> 
> During a rehearsal session, the master executes Ruet figures with perfect mastery he acquired during his five years of experience as a pilot of the Rafale fighter squadron 1 / 7 "Provence" of Saint-Dizier. Meet its international counterparts, Pilots foreign fighters, he demonstrates with finesse the flight capabilities of flagship of the French Air Force by linking the barrels rapid resumption of instant energy, a slow passage after which he went directly to a loop ... "I try to make a dynamic display with many maneuvers at low altitude and in a confined environment. She must be attractive, that the public is watching the plane from takeoff to landing. "
> 
> Mission accomplished for the pilot, two days before the official opening of the exhibition Aero India, already unanimously in its foreign counterparts during rehearsals in the Indian skies. For these seasoned fighter pilots, the presentation of Captain Ruet demonstrates above all the qualities of the Rafale in aerial combat. "For example, take energy to low speed and go on a vertical plane to go and execute a shot gun at a target is a technique routinely used in combat," he explains. It is a sequence of demonstration. "
> 
> Besides its undoubted capacity to changes in the third dimension, the Rafale is also appreciated for its high technology, avionics and weapon systems involved. According to Captain Ruet, "his first quality is that omnirole. For example, the squadron 1 / 7" Provence "by Saint-Dizier, where it is implemented, we provide air defense missions, reconnaissance reconnaissance pod with the new generation (Reco NG), ground attack, both with weapons guided by GPS or laser designation grace of Damocles Pod ... "Indeed, one Rafale fighter can simultaneously execute all missions assigned to seven different types of aircraft during a flight. For the French fighter pilot, former pilot of the Mirage 2000N, the Rafale is also "a comfortable aircraft," including human engineering to better focus on the heart of the mission, run more quickly and intuitively.
> He explains: "In the cockpit, the information is well presented and merged on a common carrier. Everything is within reach and the pilot did not need to move or turn around to find a command. There are touch controls on hand and the presentation of screens that display the information necessary for the mission is very friendly. Everything makes sense! For proof, fighter pilots from all walks adapt rather easily to his control when they start on the Rafale.
> 
> Reliability, firepower and ability to perform the tasks assigned to it are the Rafale fighter plane and single performance. "For me, this is undoubtedly the best tool I know of," says Captain Ruet without hesitation.
> 
> Wednesday 9 to Sunday, February 13, the Rafale will evolve in the Indian sky several times a day.



Google Übersetzer

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## air marshal

*Dogfight over $10b fighter deal*
February 10, 2011

It&#8217;s the biggest fighter jet import order in a long time, and for a long time. It&#8217;s the deal the world's great military-industrial powers have been waiting to clinch &#8212; the Indian Air Force's Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) purchase that could fetch the deal winner over $ 10 billion. And with Air Chief Marshal P.V. Naik saying he expected India to have signed off on the deal by September, the dogfight between the contenders is intensifying.

Signs of that intensification were more than apparent during the Aero India show at the Yelahanka Air Force Station on Thursday, with some of the contenders &#8212; Lockheed Martin (F-16IN), Boeing (F/A-18), EADS (Eurofighter Typhoon), the French Dassault (Rafale), SAAB (Gripen) &#8212; making light or dismissing outright competitors.

Officials of the European contenders mocked Lockheed Martin's apparently recent bid to let the F-35 Fifth Generation fighter among the contending Fourth Generation fighters, saying that it was a sign of the F-16IN losing altitude in the contest. The world&#8217;s largest military equipment maker, they alleged, has sought to confuse Indian decision-makers by putting out talk of the F-35. Worse, they alleged, the Fifth Generation tag is a marketing gimmick, because &#8220;Lockheed Martin has put out a self-serving definition of what constitutes a Fifth Generation jet,&#8221; EADS officials said.

&#8220;If you are saying stealth is a defining 5G characteristic, then the greater the capabilities of the electronic scanning (AESA) radar, the other must-have, the more questionable stealth becomes&#8221;, the officials said. &#8220;Also, designing a fighter for stealth means compromising on agility and lethality. Stealth is a survivability concern. You can sneak in on an enemy, but you will still need to have a good punch to take out the enemy. Also, stealth works so long as you are not detected, but once detected, stealthy aircraft lack agility to escape. Stealth and survivability can be ensured in more than one way. The Eurofighter relies on agility, the F-22 relies on agility to survive. So, is India prepared to sacrifice weapons carriage, supercruise, agility for stealth&#8221;.

Lockheed Martin officials, in turn, seemed to be dismissing fellow US giant Boeing's bid to win the contract for its F/A-18 Super Hornet by dangling a 'roadmap of future development' of the aircraft that would give it Fifth Generation characteristics and keep the jet relevant for the next several decades. "Fifth Generation capabilities cannot be grafted onto an existing aircraft. They have to be built in from the start", they said.

Orville Prins, Lockheed Martin's VP (Business Development), told Deccan Chronicle that talk of offering the F-35 was not new. Company officials had been speaking to Indian authorities on the possibility for over five years, he said, adding that US government officials had indicated that there were no barriers to selling F-35 fighters to India.

Nonetheless, "The IAF has said it is committed to the MMRCA deal and will go through with it, and the aircraft on offer is the F-16IN", Mr. Prins said, adding for good measure to dispel concerns over India buying an aircraft that even the Pakistan Air Force flies, "If India chooses the F-16IN, it will be the finest F-16 ever built. It will have a proven AESA radar and all the capabilities that that brings". The PAF F-16s do not have AESA radars.

Asked about concerns over America's willingness to transfer technology, Mr. Prins said, "The IAF's request for proposal stipulated technology transfer in five categories in four phases. Our proposal is fully compliant. There's no requirement for 100 per cent technology transfer in the RFP. The final proposal was submitted by the US government. So, there should be no problem on the ToT front". "Other contenders have US technology in their fighters. In offering ToT, they will have to go through the same US government requirements as we do", he added.

Dogfight over $10b fighter deal | Deccan Chronicle | 2011-02-11

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## SpArK

> &#8220;I*f you are saying stealth is a defining 5G characteristic, then the greater the capabilities of the electronic scanning (AESA) radar, the other must-have, the more questionable stealth becomes&#8221;, the officials said. &#8220;Also, designing a fighter for stealth means compromising on agility and lethality. Stealth is a survivability concern. You can sneak in on an enemy, but you will still need to have a good punch to take out the enemy. Also, stealth works so long as you are not detected, but once detected, stealthy aircraft lack agility to escape. Stealth and survivability can be ensured in more than one way. The Eurofighter relies on agility, the F-22 relies on agility to survive. So, is India prepared to sacrifice weapons carriage, supercruise, agility for stealth&#8221;*.



Sounds logical.


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## sancho

*Saab press conference at Aero India, confirming "Swedish government" support on ToT and launch of first real prototype of the Gripen E/F by march:*

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## SpArK




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## SpArK




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## sancho

*Aero India 2011 Rafale display video:*

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## the rafter

*Eurofighter Typhoon @ Aero India 2011*






*SAAB Gripen @ Aero India 2011*

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## the rafter

*IAF deal contenders now eye Navy orders - Business News - News - MSN India*

Some of the contenders for the $10-billion Indian Air Force have already started looking ahead in an effort to gauge the interest of the Indian Navy.

*Talking to FE, Paul Hopkins, vice-president, business development, BAE Systems, disclosed that the Naval version of the Eurofighter Typhoon has been offered to the Indian Navy. "We have had a few meetings with the Indian Navy and there is an interest. "*

*"Ninety-five percent of it will be a common platform, with full capability,"* said Hopkins. "In India, there was only a request for information and we have sent it."

The Super Hornet F/A-18E/F from Boeing and French Rafale from Dassault are already operational on board US and French carriers, while the MiG-35 could be matched with the MiG-29K model the Indian Navy operates.

"Unlike the aircraft from other companies using catapult launch which requires significant strengthening of the landing gear and airframe, Typhoon could be considered for 'ski-jump' equipped carriers only. In case India acquires a third aircraft carrier then these aircraft can be on board,"explained Hopkins. A navalised Typhoon will be new-built aircraft, fitted with strengthened airframe and landing gear, he said.

According to the company executives, *"In case we win the $10-billion 126 MMRCA deal, then India will have the indigenous skills to develop a navalised version,"* said the company official. Adding, "This is a perfect opportunity for the nation to add aircraft with both land and sea capabilities."

The company is competing with Boeing's F/A-18 E/F Super Hornet, Dassault Aviation SA's Rafale, Lockheed Martin Corp.'s F-16, Russia's MiG-35 and Saab AB's Gripen to supply jets to the south Asian country. India is expected to spend about $120 billion in the five years to 2017 to overhaul its armed forces.


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## the rafter

*Aero India 2011: Is India flying back into Russias arms? - India - DNA*

India and Russia have finalised the Russian PAKFA aircraft &#8212;a Sukhoi-T50 fighter aircraft &#8212; as the base design model for their $6 billion Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) programme. This has not just dealt a death-knell to any prospects of India joining the American F-35 fifth generation fighter programme, but also indicates the nature of things to come on India&#8217;s final selection of the $10 billion deal to procure 126 Medium weight Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCAs).

*And it does not appear bright for the Americans who have come to Aero India 2011 with Boeing&#8217;s F/A 18 Super Hornet and Lockheed Martin&#8217;s F-16 IN Super Viper &#8211; seriously considered as the two of which one would finally clinch the costliest Indian defence deal till date*, which, according to Air Chief PV Naik, would be signed by September this year.

Globally, defence experts and critics are reading too much into the absence of MiG-35 at Aero India 2011 from which it pulled out just a week ahead of the commencement of the event on February 9.
But the Russian delegations visiting Aero India 2011 in Bangalore have confirmed that though their contender for the MMRCA deal, MiG-35, was the only one from the six contenders to have pulled out from the air show, the MMRCA selection committee members as well as defence experts were witness to a series of demonstrations by MiG-35 which also carried out extreme manoeuvres in Indian as well as Russian conditions. Sources said the aerial manoeuvres demonstrated also involved &#8220;some which would not have been allowed to be carried out at any of the air shows&#8221; and that the Indian side were &#8220;thoroughly impressed&#8221;.

*According to Mikhail Pogosyan, general director of Russia&#8217;s United Aircraft Corporation (UAC), MiG-35 has already conducted modifications as per requirement of the Indian Air Force (IAF), and Russia is ready for technology transfer as per Indian wishes.*
Meanwhile, PV Deshmukh, managing director, MiG division, HAL, told DNA, that even as far as FGFA programme was concerned, there would be no problems about technology transfers with the Russians.

But he stopped short of putting anything on record about shape of things emerging if India were to select any of the American fighters which are competing for the MMRCA deal.

That is because the Americans, among the six contenders for the MMRCA deal, are the only ones feared to play havoc with technology transfer supports; and that&#8217;s a crucial issue as far as India is concerned.


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## the rafter

*French Rafale is best at dogfight - The Times of India*

BANGALORE: *If there is one thing the French Rafales can do best, it's the dogfight.* Small and menacing, the Rafale can plunge in and out rapidly for short distances, hitting the enemy aircraft swiftly. 

Five French pilots have flown the Rafale all the way from France to Bangalore -- over 5,000 miles. "We flew in with three air-to-air refuellings. It was a beautiful flight with the two fighter aircraft following the fuel tanker in front. We had a stopover at UAE before coming to India. In all, *we did the distance in 9 hours at around 550 km/hour*," Rafale pilot Plu Vinage told The Times of India. 

Vinage said the French Rafale has superb electronics and cockpit. "*It can do a mach 1.8, 9G and 30-degree angle*. It's a great aircraft to fly. Lovely handling and manoeuvrability." 

How does he see the Rafale with the F-16, F-18 and Su-30? "*The Rafale is light and is fantastic when it comes to fights in close proximity*. The F-16, F-18 and Su-30 are heavier aircraft to fly. The Su-30 is really massive and requires a lot of power and fuel. But it seems like a very powerful aircraft." 

*Vinage says the strength of the Rafale lies in the dogfight. "We can hit swiftly when aircraft are close up. Weaponization is lethal. Not too many aircraft can do the dogfight as well as the Rafale."* 

De L'Air, Vinage's colleague, expresses not one iota of fear in flight. "We are well-trained and the aircraft are good. You have these two, where's the fear? We've been in this for years and over time, you get to understand the aircraft. You know what to do, but you also know what not to do." 

Vinage said some of his best moments in flying were during the Indo-French exercises. "We went in with the Rafale and IAF came in with the Su-30. That's when we got a good look at the aircraft. The first thought that came to my mind was power -- Su-30 is about power and being powerful. But for the dogfight, I'd go for the Rafale." 

*The Rafale is more advanced than the Mirage 2000, which is also French. "The Rafale is a fourth-generation aircraft. It's fly-by-wire and has two engines. If one fails, it can fly on the other. It's a guarantee. The Mirage has been a single-engine aircraft. That's the crucial difference between the two French frontline strikers."* PI 

On Friday morning, the Rafale took to the skies in a burst of power, swerving to the right and inverting before taking off vertically into the high skies, leaving behind a trail of smoke. The fuel pipe on its cockpit giving it a rather masculine look, the Rafale is a French offering packing punch in the close-ups.

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## the rafter

*Government to sanction more fighter aircraft squadrons for IAF - India - DNA*

Preparing itself for a two-front war scenario, the Indian Air Force (IAF) has sent a proposal to the defence ministry to increase its sanctioned fighter aircraft strength from 39.5 to 45 squadrons.

"We have proposed to increase our squadron strength from 39.5 to 45 squadrons and it is under consideration of the defence ministry," IAF sources told Press Trust of India in Bangalore.

The current squadron strength of the force is 33. A squadron comprises around 18 to 20 aircraft.

In view of increasing Chinese military deployments along the Line of Actual Control (LAC), the IAF has been strengthening its presence in the northeastern sector and has plans of deploying four squadrons of the air superiority Su-30 MKI fighter aircraft there by 2015.

Asked about the time-frame in which the IAF was looking to achieve these numbers, they said the future acquisitions would depend on the sanctions accorded to the service by the government.

Under its modernisation plans, air bases on the western front are also being equipped with modern airfield infrastructure and new fighter planes.

The IAF has plans of inducting more than 350 fighter jet aircraft by the end of this decade which includes the 126 multi-role combat planes (M-MRCA), over 160 new Su-30MKIs and over 140 indigenously-built Light Combat Aircraft (LCA).

The contract for the new Su-30s has already been signed and the orders for 126 M-MRCA are expected to be placed by the end of September this year.

Six aircraft including Russian MiG-35, American F-16 and F/A-18, Swedish Gripen, European Eurofighter and French Rafale are in the race for the M-MRCA contract, which is expected to cost US$11 billion.

The IAF is also phasing out its old Russian-origin fleet of MiG aircraft - the 21, 23 and 27 series. The oldest MiG-21 Type-77 is likely to be decommissioned by the end of next year.


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## sancho

> *French Air Force General at Aero india*
> 
> The General palomeros, commander of the French Air Force, has met is Indian counterpart, the General Naik at the Yelahanka Air Base during Aero India 2011.
> From the French General point of View, Aero India is seen as an actual training deployment for his men as well as a live demonstration of the capabilities of the Rafale and the professionalism of the French Air Force crews. Palomeros especially point out the fact that the Rafale only need a small staff to be maintained far away from its home base.
> 
> 
> The meeting was the occasion to talk about 3 main subjects :
> 
> * The French-Indian Air Forces cooperation and the next Garuda exercice that should take place at the end of 2012 or in early 2013.
> * The modernization of the IAF Mirage 2000 fleet which will be brought to the dash 5 standard
> * They also discussed about the ongoing MMRCA contest but won't leak any information about it as the subject is very sensitive right now.


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## the rafter

*Fighter deal bigger: 126 will rise to 260 | Deccan Chronicle | 2011-02-13*

Feb. 12: It is already known as the world&#8217;s biggest defence import deal in a long time. Now, it transpires, it is even bigger than that. The Indian Air Force is in the market to buy 126 Medium Multi-role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) from one of six foreign vendors bidding for the contract.
*Over time, however, the IAF plans to buy 260 of them, Deccan Chronicle has learnt. That means, what has been talked about as a $10-12 billion deal will eventually fetch the winner of the contract close to $25 billion.*
While the IAF floated a request for proposal (RFP) for only 126 fighters, sources privy to the armed forces&#8217; Long-Term Integrated Perspective Plan said that that document puts the number of medium fighter jets the IAF needs at is 260. Ministry of defence officials, however, refused to confirm that there was any plan beyond the current RFP.
America&#8217;s Lockheed Martin (F-16) and Boeing (F/A-18), the 4-nation Eurofighter consortium (Typhoon), France&#8217;s Dassault (Rafale), Sweden's SAAB (Gripen) and Russia&#8217;s Mikoyan-Gureyvich (MiG-35) are locked in a high-intensity public relations as well as behind-the-scenes war to win the contract.
Air Chief P.V. Naik had on Thursday said that the Contract Negotiations Committee would achieve key milestones towards evaluating the packages offered by the various vendors in a week or two and that the contract would be ready for signing by September, except if "dissatisfied vendors put a spoke in the wheel".
That, sources said, looked almost inevitable given the size of the contract and what it could do to the fortunes of the winner. It could potentially keep alive assembly lines for some fighters from the 1970s/1980s vintage for another 30 years, ensuring that some 25,000 to 30,000 people would find employment in what are currently stricken economies in the US and Europe.
The sources also said that the eventual number of the frontline air superiority Sukhoi-30 MKIs from Russia in the IAF's fleet would also go up to 280.
The IAF would need these higher numbers of combat jets of different classes considering that it has to plan for threats coming from two fronts.


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## the rafter

*In conversation with Gripen fighter pilot - Brahmand.com*

*Q. What is your opinion about the Saab Gripen fighter aircraft compared to other fighters? For example the Eurofighter Typhoon, F-16, F/A-18, MiG-35 and Rafale who are also competing for the MMRCA contract.*

A: The SAAB Gripen is a lightweight single engine multirole fighter aircraft manufactured by the Swedish aerospace company SAAB. The aircraft is the most technologically advanced fighter and is equipped with futuristic warfare technologies developed specifically for India. The Gripen NG has increased fuel capacity, more powerful powerplant, higher payload, upgraded avionics and other improvements. As India already has fighters like Su-30MKI, Gripen will only be an added advantage to the Indian Air Force....................................


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## GLOBAL HAWK

the rafter said:


> *Fighter deal bigger: 126 will rise to 260 | Deccan Chronicle | 2011-02-13*
> 
> Feb. 12: It is already known as the worlds biggest defence import deal in a long time. Now, it transpires, it is even bigger than that. The Indian Air Force is in the market to buy 126 Medium Multi-role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) from one of six foreign vendors bidding for the contract.
> *Over time, however, the IAF plans to buy 260 of them, Deccan Chronicle has learnt. That means, what has been talked about as a $10-12 billion deal will eventually fetch the winner of the contract close to $25 billion.*
> While the IAF floated a request for proposal (RFP) for only 126 fighters, sources privy to the armed forces Long-Term Integrated Perspective Plan said that that document puts the number of medium fighter jets the IAF needs at is 260. Ministry of defence officials, however, refused to confirm that there was any plan beyond the current RFP.
> Americas Lockheed Martin (F-16) and Boeing (F/A-18), the 4-nation Eurofighter consortium (Typhoon), Frances Dassault (Rafale), Sweden's SAAB (Gripen) and Russias Mikoyan-Gureyvich (MiG-35) are locked in a high-intensity public relations as well as behind-the-scenes war to win the contract.
> Air Chief P.V. Naik had on Thursday said that the Contract Negotiations Committee would achieve key milestones towards evaluating the packages offered by the various vendors in a week or two and that the contract would be ready for signing by September, except if "dissatisfied vendors put a spoke in the wheel".
> That, sources said, looked almost inevitable given the size of the contract and what it could do to the fortunes of the winner. It could potentially keep alive assembly lines for some fighters from the 1970s/1980s vintage for another 30 years, ensuring that some 25,000 to 30,000 people would find employment in what are currently stricken economies in the US and Europe.
> The sources also said that the eventual number of the frontline air superiority Sukhoi-30 MKIs from Russia in the IAF's fleet would also go up to 280.
> The IAF would need these higher numbers of combat jets of different classes considering that it has to plan for threats coming from two fronts.


 
i donno if i should consider link as genuine or a valid news source
IF true the i can only say WTFaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaakkkkkkkkkkk
where are they getting money from ??? 
minting in backyard ???

this is preposterous 
Boeing Hire me for a HR job !!! pleaseeee


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## the rafter

GLOBAL HAWK said:


> i donno if i should consider link as genuine or a valid news source
> IF true the i can only say WTFaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaakkkkkkkkkkk
> where are they getting money from ???
> minting in backyard ???
> 
> this is preposterous
> Boeing Hire me for a HR job !!! pleaseeee


 
Only time will tell if its true or not? For now it could be best said as prediction.
But looking at the way China is increasing its intrusion and defense over the borders, this could well be India's planned answer.


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## the rafter

*Eurofighter Typhoon*


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## tallboy123

260-126= 134...

134 would be Eurofighter typhoon 
and 126 would be Rafale


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## angeldemon_007

> i donno if i should consider link as genuine or a valid news source
> IF true the i can only say WTFaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaakkkkkkkkkkk
> where are they getting money from ???
> minting in backyard ???
> 
> this is preposterous
> Boeing Hire me for a HR job !!! pleaseeee


  
I don't think this number will increase to this size but still its not impossible, just look the number of Su30 mki that India purchased from Russia (270 Su30 mki). 

If its true, then IAF should lay out the plan so that they could negotiate in all case. Also if the deal is going to be of this size we should consider buying cheaper fighters, so Gripen and F18 will be the ideal candidate. I am sorry F16 fits the bill, but to be frank LM lost the battle the moment they decided to sell F16 to PAF.



> 260-126= 134...
> 
> 134 would be Eurofighter typhoon
> and 126 would be Rafale


No platform would be single as IAF is trying to reduce the number of platforms so it will be either EF or Rafale. 

*@ the rafter*
Is this source reliable.


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## kingdurgaking

Another Fake news.. though the deal well definitely swell to 200 or 225 but it will happen after the first squadron is formed.. I doubt it will be purchased at one go.. the second deal will surely will have more advanced features with upgrades.. it will naturally happen at the end of the decade...


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## Water Car Engineer

tallboy123 said:


> 260-126= 134...
> 
> 134 would be Eurofighter typhoon
> and 126 would be Rafale


 
No, they should NOT do that. Pick one, I wouldnt mind Griphen.


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## sancho

the rafter said:


> *In conversation with Gripen fighter pilot - Brahmand.com*
> 
> *Q. What is your opinion about the Saab Gripen fighter aircraft compared to other fighters? For example the Eurofighter Typhoon, F-16, F/A-18, MiG-35 and Rafale who are also competing for the MMRCA contract.*
> 
> A: The SAAB Gripen is a lightweight single engine multirole fighter aircraft manufactured by the Swedish aerospace company SAAB. The aircraft is the most technologically advanced fighter and is equipped with futuristic warfare technologies developed specifically for India. The Gripen NG has increased fuel capacity, more powerful powerplant, higher payload, upgraded avionics and other improvements. As India already has fighters like Su-30MKI, Gripen will only be an added advantage to the Indian Air Force....................................


 
Hehe, he is distracting from the question and not really comparing it to the other MMRCAs.


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## the rafter

angeldemon_007 said:


> I don't think this number will increase to this size but still its not impossible, just look the number of Su30 mki that India purchased from Russia (270 Su30 mki).
> 
> If its true, then IAF should lay out the plan so that they could negotiate in all case. Also if the deal is going to be of this size we should consider buying cheaper fighters, so Gripen and F18 will be the ideal candidate. I am sorry F16 fits the bill, but to be frank LM lost the battle the moment they decided to sell F16 to PAF.
> 
> 
> No platform would be single as IAF is trying to reduce the number of platforms so it will be either EF or Rafale.
> 
> *@ the rafter*
> Is this source reliable.


 
The news I posted was published in Deccan chronicle (has good reputation). 
But again, since MoD has not given any official updates about MMRCA. Therefore every news we read is either speculation or the author's/writer's imagination/source. Can't say much until we here it from an official IAF or MoD source. 
Procuring more than 126-200 from MMRCA depends largely on FGFA, LCA and AMCA status. If they are inducted on time (before the squadron strength depletes even further) then I don't expect more jets thru MMRCA.


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## GareebNawaz

Liquid said:


> No, they should NOT do that. Pick one, I wouldnt mind Griphen.



how about this 259 superhornets and 1 gripen?


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## Water Car Engineer

GareebNawaz said:


> how about this 259 superhornets and 1 gripen?


 
That Gripen is just for me? I am totally down with that, lol.


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## GareebNawaz

Liquid said:


> That Gripen is just for me? I am totally down with that, lol.


 
Yep thats your Gripen. Put all your AESA radar, and 3D TVCs, and Eurocanards, and few JDAMS and have at it!!


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## sancho

> *FIRST HAND: Flying The Dassault Rafale*
> 
> On February 7 at about 1910HRS, not long after walking away after many hours in an IAF Antonov-32 transporter that shipped me and other journalists from Delhi via Nagpur to Bangalore, I received a brief phonecall from an Armée de l'Air Group Captain at the Embassy of France. It was a brief message to inform me that I had been invited to fly in the Dassault Rafale fighter on February 10 at 5PM, and that I would be supplied with more information in the next few days. I wasn't expecting the phonecall. Even less, a flight in the Rafale -- arguably the least visible contender in the Indian MMRCA competition. Well, only so far, as it turns out. Dassault is a conservative organisation that I had thought didn't pay much attention to this sort of thing. The only person I personally knew who had flown a Rafale sortie was former Indian Navy chief Admiral Arun Prakash. So as I kicked back in my room that evening, the only thing I could think was, "Huh?"...



More here:

Livefist: FIRST HAND: Flying The Dassault Rafale


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## sancho

*Before:*



> *Naveen Jindal achieves new heights with French Rafale*
> 
> BANGALORE: Young and bright, one of India's ambitious politicians and MP Naveen Jindal kept his date with a fighter aircraft yet again. This time, it was the French Rafale.
> 
> In coolers to beat the hot sun, Jindal walked into the French pilots' room at 11.45am, measured and confident. TOI caught up with him minutes before he was due for a change of gear and briefing. "I love aircraft and flying is a beautiful feeling. I am excited because I am here again to fly a combat aircraft," he said.
> 
> Why the Rafale? "I have done the F-16 and F-18. When the Rafale opportunity came to me, I said this is going to be a different flight, let me take it. And, here I am," Jindal said.
> 
> Was he anxious? Any fear of manoeuvres? "Not really. Like I said, I've done combat aircraft before and so I have experience of what it is to be in the cockpit --of course on the second seat. Not fear and anxiety, there's confidence and excitement."
> 
> "I did not want to miss the opportunity of flying a fighter again. Just looking at the aircraft displaying their might in the sky itself is a phenomenal experience. You can imagine how exotic it must to be to actually fly. I am ready and nothing psychological is holding me back," he said.
> 
> The young MP then disappeared into the pilots' room for a change of gear and 30 minutes later, went through a briefing. At 12.35pm, he came on to the tarmac to a rousing reception by the media.
> 
> "I am all set to go," Jindal announced and waved with flamboyance that is typical of pilots. Seconds later, he was at the aircraft.
> 
> After 10 minutes of talk with French pilots and engineers, came a tete-a-tete with his colleague from the rival BJP -- Rajiv Pratap Rudy. The two chatted for a few minutes and got photographed, before Rudy wished him best of luck for the flight.
> 
> At 12.46pm, Jindal climbed the ladder, walked on to the wing and got into the co-pilot's seat. Engineers around checked if everything was alright after which the lead pilot, Plu Vinage, got in. At 12.47pm, the flight took a left turn and taxied to the end of the runway. At 12.51pm, Rafale roared into the sky with Jindal.



Naveen Jindal achieves new heights with French Rafale - The Times of India



*After:*



> *Rafale was a rocket ride, says Jindal*
> 
> Bengaluru, Feb. 11: Two years after he touched the skies in F/A-18 Super Hornet combat jet, Congress leader and Member of Parliament Naveen Jindal took off in Rafale fighter aircraft at Aero India 2011 here on Friday.
> 
> Dressed in a beige overall, Naveen took off for a 40-minute sortie in the French fighter, which is also in contention for the $ 11.5 billion medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) deal. On completion of the sortie, the Executive Vice-Chairman and Managing Director of Jindal Steel and Power Limited, summed up his supersonic journey as an &#8220;amazing experience.&#8221;
> 
> &#8220;It was like a rocket taking off. The thrust you feel is amazing,&#8221; he added.
> 
> Mr Naveen Jindal said he did not experience any difficulty or discomfort even during the manoeuvres as he has flown a fighter aircraft earlier.
> 
> Tata Group&#8217;s Chairman, Ratan Tata, flew Boeing's F/A-18 Super Hornet on Thursday.



Rafale was a rocket ride, says Jindal | Deccan Chronicle | 2011-02-12


----------



## luckyyy

angeldemon_007 said:


> Check out this...Its all over the web...
> 
> *Ind to award USD 11 bn M-MRCA deal within one month*
> BANGALORE: India will pick up by next one month the vendor for its biggest-ever military fighter deal for purchasing 126 Medium-Multirole Combat Aircraft at a cost of USD 11 billion, the contract of which is expected to be finalised by September.
> 
> Addressing a press conference here, Air Chief Marshal P V Naik said all the problems related to the offsets proposals have been sorted out and if the bid losers "don't put spokes in the wheel," the deal would be finalised in the given timeframe.
> 
> "We hope to start the contract negotiations in the next two to four weeks and the deal may be signed by September," he said.
> 
> The IAF had submitted its field evaluation trial report on July 30 last year and the Defence Ministry has been going through it to determine the aircraft meeting IAF's requirement.
> 
> Six aircraft including Russian MiG-35, American F-16 and F/A-18, Swedish Gripen, European Eurofighter and French Rafale are in the race for the multi-billion dollar contract.
> 
> Naik said "unless dissatisfied vendors put spokes", which may involve getting clearances from the Central Vigilance Commission or legal proceedings, the deal would be finalised by September -- in the next fiscal.
> 
> The IAF is planning to induct these aircraft to augment its number and replace the Russian-origin MiG series aircraft, which are on their way out of the service.
> 
> Complementing the IAF team involved in the evaluation trials, Naik said the process was a "complicated" one as each aircraft had to be tested for 600 different parameters by the IAF.
> 
> *Under the procurement process, the Defence Ministry negotiates with the company offering the lowest price for the equipment required by respective services. *
> 
> Asked about the procurement of new cluster bombs from American firm Textron, he said that would be first put on the Jaguar deep penetration fighters by the IAF.


 

procurement process ?

couldn't get , if procurement process is followed properly why would their be dissatisfied vendors ?

procurement process was followed in LCA engine deal , and no problum occues..


----------



## dbc

Here is an interesting aviation week report that offers a hint of the capability of the F/A-18 E/F Super Hornets APG-79 radar, the ability to electronically attack targets including missiles beyond the effective range of the best BVR missile is capability that none of the other MMRCA contenders currently have. 



> The newest version of the Boeing Super Hornet, equipped with an advanced, Raytheon-built APG-79 active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, *can spot small targets--even stealthy cruise missiles*--at ranges great enough to allow an effective defense. Navy officials are loath to talk with any detail about the metrics of electronic attacks and admit only to "extremely significant tactical ranges" for EA effects against air-to-air and surface-to-air radars, Gaddis says. However, other Pentagon and aerospace industry officials say that while *air-to-air missiles are struggling to reach the 60-100-mi.-range mark, some sophisticated electronic attack effects can reach well beyond that*.



Navy Details New Super Hornet Capabilities | AVIATION WEEK

Some have raised doubts about the F/A-18 E/F's future, the US Navy plans to operate the F/A-18 E/F through 2035 and the F/A-18 E/F will continue to receive capability upgrades via congress approved program called the "Flight Plan", the F/A-18 E/F is assured RTDE (RESEARCH DEVELOPMENT TEST & EVALUATION) funding until 2030 under the NAvPLAN 2030 program. 



> The U.S. Navy will fly the Super Hornet out through 2035 or possibly 2040 as its front line tactical aircraft, thus guaranteeing longterm support and upgrades.The Super Hornet will continue to increase its capability through the U.S. Navys Flight Plan. The Flight Plan is an advanced capability insertion roadmap that partners Boeing
> with the U.S. Navy to ensure the Super Hornet remains combat-relevant and ahead of developing threats over the next three decades. Super Hornet capability will continue to grow as Super Hornet costs decrease


http://www.dbdc.gr/home/DAY_4.pdf


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## SpArK

@sancho

Whats with the report of Mig-35 been shown seperatly to officials and it doing things and the new news of 260+ MRCA? 
Do we need to read both on same line.. 
will it be a split? if not what will be the time frame that the last of the MRCA aircraft will be inducted?


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## the rafter

*'For heaven's sake, don't buy Russian MiG-35' - Rediff.com News*

For heaven's sake, ultimately whichever aircraft you finally choose, please, please do not buy the Russian MiG-35 is the plea from strategic affairs expert Ashley Tellis to the government of India with regard to the $11 billion deal for 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft that the European, Russian and American manufacturers are vying for.

Both in his report released recently titled 'Dogfight! India's Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft Decision,' and during the interaction that followed its release, Tellis -- Senior Associate with the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace -- pilloried the Russian aircraft saying it was the "weakest of the contenders".

*"It does not have the sensor suites that the Indian Air Force would like to see," he said, adding, "It brings no new weapons to the game from an Indian Air Force point of view."*






While acknowledging that 'it is a decent airplane, where the aerodynamic effectiveness is concerned', Tellis argued, 'there are no order of magnitude improvements and its mission performance in terms of readiness, maintenance, traditionally has been horrible.'

"And, I am not sure that the Russians have figured out how to build a machine that is really efficient in terms of spending more time in the air rather than spending more time in maintenance," he said.

Thus, Tellis predicted confidently that "the Indian Air Force is unlikely to think of the MiG-35 as essentially the answer to its problems."






In his report, the erstwhile Bush Administration official, who is well plugged in to both the Obama administration and the Manmohan Singh government, noted that *the IAF had told him that the MiG-29 like its predecessor the MiG-21, "though a forgiving airplane, has poor handling qualities and terrible cockpit ergonomics."*

Thus Tellis argued that* "whether the new engines and digital engines controls on the MiG-35 will liberate it from the angle of attack limitations that handicapped the older platform remains to be seen, but the IAF appears less-than-enthusiastic about the MiG-35 for many reasons*, not least of which is its lack of 'break the mold' capabilities the service wants for its MMRCA acquisition."

Tellis wrote that *the MiG-35 does not bring any new advanced armament to the table either. *






Tellis pointed out that *'all weapons that it carries are already in the IAF's arsenal. Not only do they not represent the increased potency that the IAF seeks through its MMRCA acquisition, some weapons are not even compliant with the Indian Request for Proposals*. Moreover, they are also now challenged by many newer systems available in the West on offer with the MiG-35 competitors."

*"The biggest problem characterising the MiG-35 as a MMRCA entrant is that it is still an airplane in development," and had not yet even "been purchased by the Russian Air Force. Thus, it violates yet another stipulation of the Request for Proposals -- that the aircraft be in the operational employ of the producer country's air force,"* Tellis added.

He predicted that "since Russia is desperate to secure the MMRCA contract in order to protect its hitherto dominant position as India's principal supplier of combat aircraft and to sustain its domestic aviation industry, it is certain that Moscow will offer New Delhi a more generous technology transfer package for the Mig-35 in comparison to its competitors."






Tellis argued that* "a more generous package, however, does not mean it is a generous package all told: although Indian commentators routinely assert that Russia is committed to 'complete' technology transfer, these claims are suspect, if the Russian record in regard to past licensed production in India is any indication."*

"Perhaps the ultimate detraction from the MiG-35's allure is that it provides no particular political advantages for India," Tellis said, and pointed out, "New Delhi is already a significant buyer of Russian aviation products. Russian-Indian military ties are almost entirely commercial anyway."






Thus, according to Tellis, *"the purchase of one more Russian airplane is unlikely to advance India's goal of investing in transformative political relationships in any serious way. Consequently, even if all the technical shortcomings of the MiG-35 are overlooked, the political benefits of this buy for India are minimal."*

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## sancho

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Some have raised doubts about the F/A-18 E/F's future, the US Navy plans to operate the F/A-18 E/F through 2035 and the F/A-18 E/F will continue to receive capability upgrades via congress approved program called the "*Flight Plan*", the F/A-18 E/F is assured RTDE (RESEARCH DEVELOPMENT TEST & EVALUATION) funding until 2030 under the NAvPLAN 2030 program.



As discussed earlier, the "Flight Plan" is the upgrade program of the USN, which is not related with the "Growth Plan", the upgrade options for international customers. 
There is no doubt that USN will keep funding their upgrades for the future, but about how important they will be for export customers? Even this source again says that they look at cost reductions, while export customers tend to look for increased capabilities and that's the difference. 




SpArK said:


> @sancho
> 
> Whats with the report of Mig-35 been shown seperatly to officials and it doing things and the new news of 260+ MRCA?
> Do we need to read both on same line..
> will it be a split? if not what will be the time frame that the last of the MRCA aircraft will be inducted?



Not sure about the report of Mig 35, was it posted, can you give me the link?
Regarding the 260 MMRCAs, as I stated in that thread I think that is not the number of fighters procured for IAF alone, but could include INs order as well. This was reported now as well:

IAF deal contenders now eye Navy orders


There won't be a split for several reasons,

- the defense minister stated before that there will be no split, the air chief stated that he wants to reduce the number and would like to have even just 1 type at all

- higher numbers = more commonality, reduced unit and maintenance costs, ease of training

- the bigger the deal, the more side advantages from the vendor, or wining country


Regarding the time frame, that depends mainly on how many we will get from the vendor itself and how fast they can provide it, for example:

Dassault runs ther production line in slow mode, which means they can easily increase the production to offer us fast induction of not only 1, but several squads. They also are one of the first that can offer the fully developed and ready fighter (accoding to the latest reports, from 2013 onwards. The other Eurocanards and Mig can't do that, because they won't have all techs, capabilities, ready by then.
The 2 big US vendors can produce fast, but I think LM will be the first that will be able to offer the fighter, because F18SH must include EPE engine and EWS sensor upgrade, which is not ready yet either. 

So the early we can get the fighter and the more we can get them from the vendor itself, the better for the time frame.


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## sancho

the rafter said:


>




That picture shows once again that this is not a real Mig 35 prototype, because it still lacks the additional weapon stations Mig 35 should get and when we look at how close they are even with 4 stations, it should be clear, that this is not possible without a redesign for bigger wings:


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## the rafter

*Raytheon (NYSE:RTN) Test New Weapon*

Raytheon has conducted a series of free-flight demonstrations of the Joint Standoff Weapon (JSOW) AGM-154-C from an F-16IN fighter aircraft.
These test flights were a part of the Indian Air Force&#8217;s Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) competition.
Phyllis McEnroe, Raytheon&#8217;s JSOW program director said that, &#8220;We conducted the demonstration to show that JSOW-C, which is currently integrated on various F-16 international aircraft, could be easily, affordably and rapidly integrated on the F-16IN. JSOW is already integrated on the F/A-18 Super Hornet and has been employed from that platform numerous times, so this test proves that JSOW can now be employed from both U.S. MMRCA offerings.&#8221;


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## the rafter

*Tata forms JV with Lockheed Martin - Home - livemint.com*

The Tata group has boosted its chances of becoming the preferred local partner of US firms bidding to sell medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) to India in the world&#8217;s largest fighter jet deal.

On Monday, Tata Advanced Systems Ltd, a subsidiary of Tata Sons Ltd, signed an agreement with Lockheed Martin Corp. to form a joint venture (JV) company, Tata Lockheed Martin Aerostructures, to build aerostructures for the C-130 aircraft produced by the US firm.

Tata Industries Ltd, another group company, had formed a joint venture with Boeing Co. in 2008 to manufacture defence-related aerospace components in India for export to Boeing and its clients worldwide.

Both Lockheed Martin and Boeing are in the race to sell 126 MMRCA to India for $11 billion (Rs.50,050 crore), along with Sweden&#8217;s Saab AB, Paris-based Dassault Aviation SA, Moscow-based United Aircraft Corp., and EADS NV. Bidding is expected to begin in a month.

Whoever wins the contract will have to source components and systems from local vendors worth at least 30% of the order&#8217;s value, under India&#8217;s defence offset policy.

Tata Advanced Systems has also teamed up with Sikorsky Aircraft Corp. and United Technologies to manufacture S-92 helicopter cabins in India.

India is becoming one of the world&#8217;s largest military spenders, with the third largest defence procurement budget in Asia, according to a recent report by Deloitte Consulting India Pvt. Ltd. For 2010-11, India earmarked $32.03 billion for national defence, including $13.04 billion for acquiring new weapons systems equipment and services.

The procurement budget is estimated to rise to $42 billion by 2015, making India one of the most attractive defence markets, Deloitte said.

&#8220;Capabilities of Indian automotive companies, low-cost manufacturing centre and offset policies are driving more Indian companies to forging tie-ups with international aerospace majors,&#8221; said John Siddharth, industry analyst, aerospace and defence, for South and West Asia at consulting firm Frost and Sullivan. &#8220;However, Indian companies need to create high confidence levels in the global market, and this can be done by tying up with experienced global partners. Tata group is also looking at creating global aerospace brand by partnering with international aerospace companies to enable itself to venture into the international market,&#8221; he added.

The Tata Lockheed Martin Aerostructures facility will come up near the Hyderabad airport in the later part of the year, a Tata Sons spokesperson said in an email.

The facility is export oriented. Its products will form a key aircraft structure that Lockheed Martin will integrate and complete for global C-130 aircraft customers, a statement said. Investment details were not disclosed.

The Lockheed C-130 Hercules is a four-engine turboprop military transport aircraft. The Indian Air Force recently inducted the C130J Super Hercules tactical airlift transport aircraft.


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## luckyyy

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> The newest version of the Boeing Super Hornet, equipped with an advanced, Raytheon-built APG-79 active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, can spot small targets--even stealthy cruise missiles--at ranges great enough to allow an effective defense.


 
this is rightly MMRCA is meant for , to counter the incoming cruise missiles..


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## the rafter

*US goes all out for Rs 49,000 cr IAF deal - Rediff.com News*

The Barack Obama administration has launched a concerted and aggressive campaign on behalf of United States's fighter aircraft manufacturers to push for the 'mother of all deals'-- the $11 billion medium multi-role combat aircraft deal for 126 fighter aircraft for the Indian Air Force. The deal could give the ailing US economy a major boost in terms of both exports and thousands of jobs.

US Commerce Secretary Gary Locke, who met Defence Minister A K Antony and senior officials of the IAF during his India visit, made a strong pitch for the US aircraft at every opportunity, sources told rediff.com. European nations and Russia are also vying for the lucrative deal.

*The Indian government is likely to move toward a down-select, where it will short-list two or three candidates and open the commercial negotiations.*







Those in the running are the Boeing F/A-18 E/F Super Hornet, Lockheed Martin's F-16 Block 60, Dassault Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon, Saab Gripen, and the RSK Mig-35. 

Even before his trip, as head of a high-tech US trade delegation that visited New Delhi, Bengaluru and Mumbai last week, Locke had met Indian Ambassador Meera Shankar and stressed that the deal was a major priority for the US and President Obama.

On the eve of his trip, when asked by rediff.com how strongly he would push for the deal while in India, Locke had said, "It's of course a high priority for us and of course, we think the world of our American companies that are involved in that proposal."

But we are also going to that event (Aero India 2011 at Bengaluru) to showcase the many other American companies that provide technology and parts and components that are used in India's civil aviation industry," he said.

After he returns, Locke would brief the President on his trip, said sources, adding that President Obama may call Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and make a pitch for the US manufacturers.

In March, senior Pentagon official Ashton Carter will visit India to meet senior officials from the defence ministry and representatives of the armed forces. The MMRCA deal would be a priority on his agenda.






At a recent conference on India-US Defence Relations at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, Carter had said, "Without saying anything disparaging about the other entrants, both the F-18 and the F-16s offers include the best technology."

Carter acknowledged, "India will make its decision based upon its own needs and its own assessment and our relationship will go on in the defence field whatever happens."

But he asserted, "Obviously, I hope that we end up being their partners because it would give additional momentum to the relationship."






When he was pressed as to how much advocacy he would indulge in while in India on behalf of the US fighter aircraft candidates, Carter said, "Our people have explained themselves. I don't need to do that. My principal interest at the moment in this and in all of our procurements worldwide is transparency, openness, so that everyone in India can see exactly what's going on and whatever they pick, they'll have picked for their own reasons on the merits. That's the important principle."

In order to sweeten the deal if India decides to go with either one of the US fighter aircraft, Carter made it clear that America would have no qualms about offering India the F-35 Stealth and even co-developing maybe a fifth generation fighter. 

He was quick to note, "That's really up to the Indians."

Carter said, "Right now, they are focused on these aircraft, which are really top-of-the-line fourth generation fighters and they are (of) good value and meet the requirements of the MMRCA solicitation."


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## sancho

*Shiv Aroor flies the Dassault Rafale:*


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## sudhir007




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## SpArK



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## SpArK

@sancho

Do u have any information regarding the J/APG-1 Aesa Radar of the Jap F-2A ???


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## GORKHALI

SpArK said:


> @sancho
> 
> Do u have any information regarding the J/APG-1 Aesa Radar of the Jap F-2A ???


 
They still got some teething problem on software front now earlier it was criticised for very limited range ,and some 18 F 2 were updated by J/APG -1 ...


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## dbc

News of Rafale's engine failure at AeroIndia 2011 is true according to the Armée de l&#8217;Air (French Airforce) an engine sonde(sensor) needed replacement in a two hour operation performed by a crew of three.



> e travail de chaque personne de l&#8217;équipe. Pour preuve, quelques opérations de maintenance curative ont été réalisées par les mécaniciens Rafale au fil des jours. « Grâce au système Harpagon qui offre une approche fiable et rapide des éventuelles pannes du Rafale, nous avons noté qu&#8217;une sonde moteur devait être changée, raconte le major Philippe Sert. Nous avons demandé en urgence au centre de permanence du suivi du soutien, basé à Mérignac, l&#8217;envoi du matériel nécessaire pour procéder à l&#8217;acte de maintenance. Après l&#8217;avoir reçu à l&#8217;aéroport international de Bangalore, seulement trois mécaniciens ont suffi à déposer le moteur de l&#8217;avion, changer la pièce et poser le moteur de nouveau. Après seulement deux heures d&#8217;intervention et de vérifications, le pilote du Rafale a pu assurer son vol de présentation de l&#8217;après-midi. » Ce jour-là sur le parking des avions, des spécialistes internationaux de la maintenance aéronautique ont observé avec intérêt toutes les étapes de l&#8217;opération, notant le calme et le professionnalisme des aviateurs français. Le décollage du Rafale est venu entériner l&#8217;efficacité de la man&#339;uvre.



Le détachement français en action sur le salon Aeroindia


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## SpArK




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## the rafter

*Will Russia's MiG abandon the Indian race? | Features & Opinion | RIA Novosti*






The Indian tender for 126 MMRCAs (medium multi-role combat aircraft) to replace its ageing MiG-21s was announced long ago, but only now is the real intrigue unfolding. Competition between two main rivals - the United States' F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and Russia's MiG-35 has been stiff.
The intrigue heightened after Russia announced its MiG-35 would not be on display at an air show in Bangalore. Many experts took the absence of a "real live" MiG as a sign that Russia was pulling out of the race.
Leading entries compared
The Russian and U.S. fighters each have their own strengths. The Super Hornet's design maturity is indeed impressive. It has been in serial production for over 10 years and carries an active phased-array radar (APAR), which is also in serial production. The United States is also in a position to start manufacturing the aircraft for an Indian order at short notice.
The MiG-35's advantages include India's experience of MiG-29s and the fact that maintenance infrastructure for them is in place across the country, as well as Russia's readiness to share production technology with India.
The MiG-35's main shortcoming is its APAR: it is still in development and this is set to continue for a year or two. Also, despite its MiG-29 origins, the MiG-35 still needs refining before it can go into serial production.
Fundamentally, the only thing the MiG-35 shares with the previous MiG-29 family is its appearance. Its equipment and facilities have undergone a radical overhaul. The aircraft is now capable of using the very latest air-to-surface munitions, making it a multi-role fighter, unlike the MiG-29, which is considered an air-supremacy fighter.
The cockpit, in line with the current fashion, is equipped with multi-functional liquid-crystal display screens, while the HOTAS (hands on throttle-and-stick) system allows the pilot to manage all the weapons systems without taking their hands off the aircraft and engine controls.
Vectored-thrust engines make the plane much more maneuverable, increasing its chances of winning in close combat and avoiding long-range missile fire.
The fact that a two-seat version - the MiG-35D - is available, with the same kind of avionics as the single-seater, means that groups consisting of one- and two-seater aircraft can be formed, which are capable of carrying out highly complicated missions. In such formations the two-seaters become command planes, coordinating the moves of a flight or squadron.
Boeing meanwhile ...
Unlike Russia, which decided not to put its MiG-35 on display in Bangalore, the United States has stepped up its activity and unveiled the latest version of the F/A-18, or the Silent Hornet, upscaled with stealth technology.
These warplanes are kitted out with conformal fuel tanks, enhanced performance engines, spherical missile laser warning (SM/LW), enclosed weapons pads and next generation cockpits complete with internal infrared search and tracking systems.
The aircraft on display at the show is the first to be developed as part of the International Super Hornet Roadmap program, which Boeing announced at the Farnborough air show last year. The fighter is being touted as a new generation in the Super Hornet family, which will feature improved combat survivability, situational awareness and performance for customers.
Boeing's vice president Vivek Lall said that if India signs a contract with Boeing under the MMRCA tender it will be able to obtain this technology. "We are creating a platform which will be combat worthy for the next 30 or 40 years," he said.
This announcement is unprecedented for an American company - until now only the United States' closest allies have been granted full access to this kind of technology. All the others had to make do with what they were sold.
Tender results are expected to be announced this summer. They are particularly important for the MiG: should the MiG-35 fail to get an export order, Sukhoi aircraft will be left in a position of unassailable dominance on Russia's combat aviation market.
Despite the unquestioned potential of Sukhoi platforms and their proven quality, such a monopoly is unlikely to be helpful.
The views expressed in this article are the author's and do not necessarily represent those of RIA Novosti.


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## the rafter

*AERO INDIA: Boeing comment provokes combat aircraft debate*

Saab believes its Gripen IN design will make the shortlist in India's medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) contest later this year, despite a contrary prediction made by rival bidder Boeing.
Speaking at Aero India, Kory Mathews, vice-president F/A-18 and EA-18G programmes for Boeing Military Aircraft, said he believed only three of the current six candidates would make the shortlist, and these would all be twin-engine designs.
"That's really a very surprising statement," says Eddy de la Motte, Saab's director Gripen India. "I'm pretty sure there's going to be one single-engine fighter in there as well."
The Swedish manufacturer has submitted a strong technical and industrial bid with a "responsible price" for the 126-aircraft deal, he says.
Lockheed Martin also challenges the Boeing official's assessment of the MMRCA battle.
"The request for proposals actually favours a single-engine aircraft," claims Orville Prins, vice-president Lockheed Martin Aeronautics, referring to New Delhi's focus on the life-cycle costs of its future fighter.
The company is offering its F-16IN "Super Viper" for the requirement.
"We believe this is the finest F-16 that would ever be built," says Prins. "We think it's the ultimate fourth-generation aircraft, with a fifth-generation technology bridge in it."
A key element of the company's bid is the availability of the Northrop Grumman APG-77 active electronically scanned array radar.
Lockheed's experience in setting up multiple foreign final assembly lines for the F-16 during the programme's history means it has "demonstrated that we can do this better than any other bidder," Prins claims.
Prins also rebuffed a suggestion that the Indian air force could scrap its MMRCA process entirely in favour of pursuing a deal for Lockheed's F-35 Joint Strike Fighter.
"All we have heard from the air force is that they remain absolutely committed to MMRCA," he says.
As well as the F-16, Gripen and Super Hornet, additional candidates for the more than $10 billion deal are the Dassault Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon and RSK MiG-35.


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## Dash

> Dassault runs ther production line in slow mode, which means they can easily *increase the production to offer us fast induction of not only 1, but several squads*. They also are one of the first that can offer the fully developed and ready fighter (accoding to the latest reports, from 2013 onwards. The other Eurocanards and Mig can't do that, because they won't have all techs, capabilities, ready by then.
> *The 2 big US vendors can produce fast,* but I think LM will be the first that will be able to offer the fighter, because F18SH must include EPE engine and EWS sensor upgrade, which is not ready yet either.



For the bolded part -
I think its a very valid point, that IAF should actually order more than 1 squads, mainly for 2 reasons.
1. Faster induction.
2. Any issues on tech transfer and subsequesnt delays can be mitigated. If in case such issues crop up you atleast have working squadrons of fighters.


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## angeldemon_007

> Dassault runs ther production line in slow mode, which means they can easily increase the production to offer us fast induction of not only 1, but several squads.


Its true that Dassault is producing Rafale at a low rate, that means they have not set up big production line. How can they increase production when their is no facility on ground. Just for the information, no country will set up a separate production or increase the capacity of present one just to meet the demand of a single country. 

If Dassault win a couple of more projects or if India promise to increase the number in MMRCA competition, they we could expect Dassault to increase the production. But dassault will have no problem in India's license production.

People are talking about good ToT in French case. But the truth is French are also not so good. French companies are making fool of offset policy and not to mention the DCNS reluctance to offer technology. 

The thing is we don't know whom to trust on ToT except Russia but we are not buying Mig35.


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## SpArK



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## jha

With No. set to be increased to >200. I hope we get EF+SH combo..

BTW this special screening of Mig-35 to the IAF officials may have some side effects..Some senior people would remember a discussion we had some months back..There was an article which talked about IAF going for some Mig-35 in addition to 126 MRCA and getting ELRAAMs with this..


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## the rafter

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> News of Rafale's engine failure at AeroIndia 2011 is true according to the Armée de l&#8217;Air (French Airforce) an engine sonde(sensor) needed replacement in a two hour operation performed by a crew of three.
> 
> 
> 
> Le détachement français en action sur le salon Aeroindia


 
I think you've quoted it out of context and misinterpreted the news.
Following is the entire news translated (french to english):

*The French detachment in action on the show AeroIndia*
Updated: 14/02/2011
There are countries where improvisation is law. An assertion that has been proven by the French detachment deployed AeroIndia airshow in Bangalore in southern India.






Nearly three weeks full time, were necessary logistics coordinator, Lieutenant Gaëtan Esseric and head of the device, Lieutenant-Colonel Loïc Lemercier
prepare for the mission. Definition of needs, delivery of support equipment and personnel, taking into account housing, food, passes&#8230;everything must be carefully defined in advance. Before departure, a deployment plan, the backbone of the detachment, is established. "This mission was called in too short a time to perform before a recognition site, said Lt. Esseric. We developed an estimate from France, taking into account the scheduled flight activity and resources offered by the Yelahanka air base. *Thorough preparation and accurate is the main ingredient for a mission goes smoothly, said the young officer.And add realistic: "But you can never predict everything, you also know how to adapt!* »






Besides three drivers whose Rafale Solo Display presenter and coach, the detachment has a service specialist species of hosts, a logistics cell refueling technique airbase Mont-de-Marsan and a computer specialist in application Scrooge.Eight rifle-squad commandos protecting Metz also provide a permanent 24/24 on the site to ensure the facilities, equipment and aircraft. Finally, ten sub-engineer officers, handpicked, ensure the implementation and maintenance of two Rafale air force deployed for the occasion. Whether ringmaster, specialty "avionics", "vector", "engine" or "dealers" airmen work from morning to night, the rhythm of flight activity of dense living. Indeed, every day Solo Display provides two flights of presentation, which can be added theft by the manufacturer Dassault Aviation under an agreement. A total of thirteen flights were operated by the French detachment, an intense pace could be possible sansler work of each individual team. *As proof, some corrective maintenance operations were performed by mechanics Rafale over days. "Thanks to Scrooge that offers a fast and reliable approach to any breakdowns of the Rafale, we noted that a probe engine had to be changed, said Maj. Philip Use. We requested an emergency center continuously monitoring support based in Mérignac, sending the necessary equipment to perform the act of maintenance.After receiving the Bangalore International Airport,  only three mechanics were sufficient to remove the engine from the aircraft, changing room and asked the engine again. After only two hours of intervention and checks, the pilot was able to secure its Rafale flight presentation of the afternoon. "* That day on the parking of aircraft, international experts in aircraft maintenance have watched with interest all stages of the operation, noting the calm and professionalism of the French aviators.The Rafale has come off endorse the effectiveness of maneuvering.






For the 29 airmen, pilots of Rafale, mechanics, commandos or frames, the show will AeroIndia not been easy. *But thanks to their capacity to anticipate, adapt and respond, they were able to complete their mission.*
Le détachement français en action sur le salon Aeroindia

Since technical issues are not uncommon in fighter jets and also considering they flew from France (in 9 hrs) to participate in Aero India. If at all, the article actually praises Rafale for its ease to resolve the engine issue in a matter of 2 hrs that required only 3 mechanics.

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## sancho

angeldemon_007 said:


> Its true that Dassault is producing Rafale at a low rate, that means they have not set up big production line. How can they increase production when their is no facility on ground. *Just for the information, no country will set up a separate production or increase the capacity of present one just to meet the demand of a single country. *
> 
> People are talking about good ToT in French case. *But the truth is French are also not so good*. French companies are making fool of offset policy and not to mention the DCNS reluctance to offer technology.
> 
> *The thing is we don't know whom to trust on ToT except Russia* but we are not buying Mig35.




And now check this:



> *France offers to supply 40 Rafale fighters to IAF*
> 
> *January 25, 2008*
> 
> 
> As President Nicolas Sarkozy began talks with Indian leaders to boost Indo-French ties, a French company Friday *offered to sell 40 of its new generation Rafale fighters to New Delhi on a fast track basis to help IAF maintain its combat edge.*
> 
> The offer was made by Charles Edelstennie, scion of the Dassult family, the makers of the Rafale and Mirage fighters. "We know the Indian Air Force, with which we have a decade-long close association, is facing force depletion. *So we are ready to supply 40 Rafales, the world's first omni-role fighters to India, in a short span of time*", the chairman and chief executive of Dassult, a multi-billion French military and civil aerospace company, told PTI.
> 
> Edelastennie said Rafale fighters could be an interim sale to India as New Delhi finalises preparations to acquire 126 Multi Role Combat Aircraft at an estimated cost of $10 billion (about Rs 40,000 crore).
> 
> "We estimate delays in procurements of these 126 fighters. So we are offering the Rafale fighters as interim arrangement", he said.
> 
> The government has already cleared a contract for purchase of 40 additional SU-30MKI to maintain an effective air combat strength.
> 
> Terming the Rafale fighter supply as a "friendly gesture to help close friend India," Edelstennie said his company was a strong bidder for India's MCRA contract.
> 
> Rubbishing notions that Rafale came with a heavy price tag, the Dassult CEO said "the fighters' cost to efficiency was not high. New Delhi would get a cheaper price tag as the fighters' assembly in India under technology transfer would not be high".
> 
> "*Rafale is very close to life cycle cost of Mirage 2000*," the French CEO, who is part of the 60-strong captains of French Industry accompanying President Sarkozy, said.
> 
> Describing Rafale as a truly multi-role aircraft, Edelstennie said the fighter had air to air, air to ground as well as air to sea capability, which would allow IAF the liberty of using fewer aircraft for multi-tasking. He said France had always been a "friend in need for India.
> 
> *We have been transferring weapon platforms and systems to you even in adverse international conditions," the Dassult CEO said.*
> 
> He claimed all the French military supplies to India were coming *without "any strings attached*" unlike sales from US and Russia.
> 
> On Rafale sales offer to India, Edelstennie said this was not the only gesture made by the French. "*A couple of years ago we thrice made an offer to India to transfer the entire Mirage-2000 assembly lines and also the entire export rights of the fighters," he said. "We see and feel the regret now. It was a golden opportunity which your then government did not utilize,*" the French CEO claimed.
> 
> Edelastennie asserted that unlike the US fighters in contention for the Indian contract, Rafale was a generation ahead. "It is fulfilling the needs and tasks of the French air force and navy globally."...



France offers to supply 40 Rafale fighters to IAF


Regarding not providing ToT and fooling us on offsets, lets once again look at what we get from them:

- Jaguar, from France and UK, the French company then is now Dassault Aviation (licence production)
- Cheethak helicopter (licence production)
- Shakti engine (licence production)
- Scorpene subs (licence production)
- Kaveri - Snecma engine (co-development)
- Maitri SAM (co-development)
- Topsight I HMS (JV)
- several avionics parts to upgrade Russian fighters
- design consultancy for Tejas
- weapons for Dhruv and LCH
- and of course the highly praised Mirage 2000 


And this is the list of arms and tecs on offer at the moment:

- 126 to 200 Rafale for IAF, 40 for IN (licence production)
- 197 EC Fennec (licence production)
- 6 x A330 MRTT
- 8 x Dassault Falcon MPA (were on offer in the initial competition)
- Dassault consultancy for AURA UCAV
- Airbus A400 transporter (could have been, possibly still join as launch partner)
- EC Panther for IN and ICG
- additional Scorpene subs
- hopefully Mistral class LHDs
- EDA-R amphibious landing vehicles
- Caesar self-propelled howitzer for IA
- Thales co-development for Tejas AESA radar
- MBDA France is keen for further weapon co-developments


I'm sure I missed some more, but even this list should impressive enought and should make clear, that apart from Russia, not only France as a country, but also their companies were the best choices for us in terms of capability, quality, reliability, licence production, co-developments and JVs. They are not perfect of course, but so is Russia, or any other country, even India!

However, that also shows why they would be an excellent strategic partner for India, because they can offer everything what Russia offers, with the same reliability and the same advantages of co-developments, partnerships... That means bounding France and their defense industy as a second strategic partner on us (besides Russia), would be the best decision we could take to improve the capabilities of our forces and our own industry!

That's exactly why I prefer Rafale and France, because Rafale is the best choice for our forces as a fighter and France as a country to remain independent. It's simply the best package! ! !

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## ajay

The Pioneer :: Home : >> IAF set to soar again

*India should buy the best planes. But Prime Minister Manmohan Singh may force US aircraft upon the Air Force.*


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## dbc

the rafter said:


> I think you've quoted it out of context and misinterpreted the news.
> 
> Since technical issues are not uncommon in fighter jets and also considering they flew from France (in 9 hrs) to participate in Aero India. If at all, the article actually praises Rafale for its ease to resolve the engine issue in a matter of 2 hrs that required only 3 mechanics.




The original report of technical problems appeared on the EuroFighter site and was posted by Spark aka Benny on the Aero India 2011 thread. I didn't believe it at first because the news appeared on a competitors website, but it has now been confirmed by Armée de lAir.

The EuroFighter website had this to say, the below remark is quite disparaging and should be removed. 



> Not like the French Rafale - forced to use the spare aircraft after the first one failed the pre-take off checks and that cut its display short probably for some issue also with the second aircraft - the EF at Aero India was without any problems, confirming the "traditional" reliability of the system when deployed also so far from the main base.



http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/79898-aero-india-2011-a-24.html#post1476439

Eurofighter: Aero India 2011 Blog


What part of my original quote is out of context? 



Death.By.Chocolate said:


> News of Rafale's engine failure at AeroIndia 2011 is true according to the Armée de lAir (French Airforce) an engine sonde(sensor) needed replacement in a two hour operation performed by a crew of three.



Is it not true that the engine failed and had to taken out,a part flown in for replacement by a three person crew in an operation that took two hours to complete? What did I say that is 'out of context'?

If you're familiar with the 'Butterfly effect' you'll know what I mean.
A minor event (technical snag) may result in a significant undesired outcome. Complex machines fail sometimes, but when it fails in the presence of a prospective customer about to place a substantial order it is embarrassing. Worse it happened at an international air show in the presence of journalist, aviation enthusiast and competitors. Competitors that will not hesitate to exploit the event to trash the Rafale and introduce doubts in the customers mind. Eurofighter has already taken advantage to further its own cause - others will follow.

Did the Typhoon, Gripen, F-16 or F/A-18 E/F experience technical failures at AeroIndia 2011? May be, but even if it did; it isn't public knowledge. Besides each vendor brought a second aircraft to the show to mitigate the risk of technical failures with the possible exception of the F-16 and the F/A-18 E/F the other MMRCA contenders were prepared to switch aircrafts at a moments notice.The second F/A-18's wasn't available as a stand by because it was transformed in a five hour operation into the International Road Map Hornet 'mock up' the evening before opening day. The Rafale isn't the only aircraft that flew great distances to participate, the Typhoon flew in from Italy,the F-16 from UAE and US, the Gripen from Sweden and the F/A-18 F that participated in the air show belongs to the VFA-106 Gladiators, based at Naval Air Station Oceana Virginia.

You may not think its a big deal but the news has already reached potential markets such as Brazil. Nelson Jobim will now find it even harder to justify the Rafale to an increasingly reluctant President.


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## baker

SpArK said:


>


 
rafale all the way......


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## luckyyy

angeldemon_007 said:


> Its true that Dassault is producing Rafale at a low rate, that means they have not set up big production line. How can they increase production when their is no facility on ground. Just for the information, no country will set up a separate production or increase the capacity of present one just to meet the demand of a single country.
> 
> If Dassault win a couple of more projects or if India promise to increase the number in MMRCA competition, they we could expect Dassault to increase the production. But dassault will have no problem in India's license production.
> 
> People are talking about good ToT in French case. But the truth is French are also not so good. French companies are making fool of offset policy and not to mention the DCNS reluctance to offer technology.
> 
> The thing is we don't know whom to trust on ToT except Russia but we are not buying Mig35.


 
IAF is most femilier with MIG-29 and would know it's ture capabilities and shortcomes..
if russian had addressed all shortcomes of mig-29 in mig-35 , then no point why would we are not buying it..

i think it will come down between mig-35 and gripen in the end and infect favering the gripen in the contest that it offers the same weapons as other two europien contenders offering plus in future the engine and the radar can be replace by the JV prodects of kaveri and AESA..


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## the rafter

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> The original report of technical problems appeared on the EuroFighter site and was posted by Spark aka Benny on the Aero India 2011 thread. I didn't believe it at first because the news appeared on a competitors website, but it has now been confirmed by Armée de l&#8217;Air.
> 
> The EuroFighter website had this to say, the below remark is quite disparaging and should be removed.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/79898-aero-india-2011-a-24.html#post1476439
> 
> Eurofighter: Aero India 2011 Blog
> 
> 
> What part of my original quote is out of context?
> 
> 
> 
> Is it not true that the engine failed and had to taken out,a part flown in for replacement by a three person crew in an operation that took two hours to complete? What did I say that is 'out of context'?
> 
> If you're familiar with the 'Butterfly effect' you'll know what I mean.
> A minor event (technical snag) may result in a significant undesired outcome. Complex machines fail sometimes, but when it fails in the presence of a prospective customer about to place a substantial order it is embarrassing. Worse it happened at an international air show in the presence of journalist, aviation enthusiast and competitors. Competitors that will not hesitate to exploit the event to trash the Rafale and introduce doubts in the customers mind. Eurofighter has already taken advantage to further its own cause - others will follow.
> 
> Did the Typhoon, Gripen, F-16 or F/A-18 E/F experience technical failures at AeroIndia 2011? May be, but even if it did; it isn't public knowledge. Besides each vendor brought a second aircraft to the show to mitigate the risk of technical failures with the possible exception of the F-16 and the F/A-18 E/F the other MMRCA contenders were prepared to switch aircrafts at a moments notice.The second F/A-18's wasn't available as a stand by because it was transformed in a five hour operation into the International Road Map Hornet 'mock up' the evening before opening day. The Rafale isn't the only aircraft that flew great distances to participate, the Typhoon flew in from Italy,the F-16 from UAE and US, the Gripen from Sweden and the F/A-18 F that participated in the air show belongs to the VFA-106 Gladiators, based at Naval Air Station Oceana Virginia.
> 
> You may not think its a big deal but the news has already reached potential markets such as Brazil. Nelson Jobim will now find it even harder to justify the Rafale to an increasingly reluctant President.


 
See, don't get me wrong, I found it out of context because of the french link you posted (Le détachement français en action sur le salon Aeroindia) had nothing like you had quoted. I just thought you hate Rafale so much that you misinterpreted.
In any case, apart from Eurofighter Aero India 2011 blog I did not find any other reliable sources confirming the failure of Rafale. But again, I'm not shrugging in disbelief, it could have very well happened. I do think Rafale has its own set of problems (not sure how many?). Though the French have been a reliable defense partner of India and their Mirage 2000 is the best example. Eurofighter could be a better choice if it was little more mature in A to G, AESA and price. I do understand your point about the "Butterfly effect" and welcome your concern. I hope Sancho will provide some clarification regarding the Aero India incident?


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## the rafter

*Eurofighter talking to Tejas.....*


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## SpArK

*A proven fighter for the UAE​*






France may be smaller than the US state of Texas but in the world of aerospace and defence it is a giant.

It trails only the US in supplying arms to the Gulf, accounting for 35 per cent of purchases between 2005 and 2009 by the UAE, and 21 per cent of all defence sales in the region during the same period.

A major reason France punches above its weight in the defence sector is Dassault Aviation, which will be a major exhibitor at next week's International Defence Exhibition and Conference (IDEX) in Abu Dhabi, the region's largest defence expo.

The company's IDEX stand will be its largest and features scale models of its new aircraft as well as jet engines and missiles, said Patrick Genty, Dassault's senior representative in the UAE and a former French air force pilot who trained UAE Air Force cadets to fly Mirage jets in late 1980s and early 1990s.

Exhibiting at IDEX underscores how Dassault is "committed to the UAE and to our customer", he says.

Long before the major US defence companies began selling to the UAE, Dassault was the leading supplier of fighter jets. It began supplying its Mirage fighters to the Emirates in 1974, a time when Abu Dhabi's streets were unpaved, the UAE capital had its own flag - red and white - and its own air force.

Since then, the company has supplied the Emirates with about 100 fighter jets, spread across several generations of its Mirage family, which has been hugely successful since it was launched in the mid-1950s.


The UAE contracts also paved the way for other French companies to move into the region and sell related equipment such as aircraft engines, avionics and munitions, as well as other defence capabilities including battle tanks.

Dassault remains a key player in the UAE and since 2008 it has been negotiating a proposed deal to sell the country its latest jet, the Rafale, in a 60-aircraft deal worth up to &#8364;8 billion (Dh39.72bn), in what would be the first foreign sale of the Rafale.

The six GCC states "are old and loyal customers of French armaments" and as such comprise one of the most important markets for French aerospace and defence products, says Alain Ruello, a journalist with Les Echos newspaper, based in Paris. "For Dassault and its partners and France, this Rafale deal is of very great importance."

The origins of Dassault's Gulf success story date as far back to the reconstruction of post-Second World War France in the 1940s, says Pierre Pacalon, a retired French general who is now an adviser for Dassault Aviation and is based in Abu Dhabi.

After 1945, France set about developing its own defence manufacturers that were not dependent on other European powers or the US. As a result, the government selected companies as "national champions" to receive state aid and contracts. Dassault was chosen as a top military aircraft maker.

"President Charles de Gaulle said the country needed to be an independent military power," Mr Pacalon says.

"That is the reason we developed in France aeroplane makers, electronics makers and engines. It was to become fully autonomous."

Dassault experimented with dozens of prototypes before settling on the Mirage's delta wing, in which there is no tail and the wing forms a triangle.

The Mirage's early export success and its performance in conflicts during the 1960s and 1970s raised Dassault's profile.

In the early 1970s, Abu Dhabi acquired 36 Mirage IIIs and later upgraded them to the Mirage 5 standard. Despite the testing flying characteristics of the delta-wing aircraft, the UAE pilots mastered control of the planes, Mr Pacalon says, including the extremely difficult technique of landing at 350kph with the jet's nose up.

The UAE followed the deal up with a similar order in 1983 for the Mirage 2000, and finally a third major order for Mirage aircraft in 1998 for an upgraded version, the Mirage 2000-9. That order totalled 62 aircraft, with 32 new planes and 30 of the UAE's older Mirage 2000s revamped.

Mr Genty says he is "optimistic and confident" of a sale of the Rafale to the UAE.

Still, a deal is by no means assured, Mr Ruello says, and the UAE is not in urgent need of new jets with its still-young Mirage 2000-9s and almost 80 US-made F-16s.

*"For the UAE to buy Rafale, one condition to the deal is to find a buyer for the UAE's 60 or so Mirage 2000-9 which are very advanced planes," he says. The Emirates does not plan to sell the Mirage jets before 2015, "so the UAE are not in a hurry to move from Mirage to Rafale", Mr Ruello adds.
*
*But with Dassault now entering its fifth decade of working in the UAE, a few years may not present a problem for the company. "This kind of relationship takes time," says Mr Pacalon.
*

Full: A proven fighter for the UAE - The National


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## SpArK

*Thales AESA RBE2 radar validated on Rafale​*




February 2011

Thales has announced that the production model AESA RBE2 radar with active electronically scanned array antenna has been validated on the Rafale omnirole combat aircraft. Following a comprehensive programme of flight tests conducted between September and December 2010 with the AESA RBE2 on the Rafale, Dassault Aviation confirmed that all aspects of the radar&#8217;s performance comply with the technical specifications of the &#8216;Roadmap&#8217; contract, awarded by the French defence procurement agency (DGA).

The success of this test campaign is a further endorsement of Thales&#8217;s European leadership in airborne radar.

This latest major milestone confirms the AESA RBE2 radar&#8217;s high level of maturity. The AESA RBE2 with active array will give the Rafale a number of key advantages:

Extended range for compatibility with the latest generation long range missiles and ability to detect low-signature targets
Higher module reliability for reduced cost of ownership (no maintenance required on the active array for 10 years)
Extended waveform agility, making it possible to acquire submetric synthetic aperture (SAR) imagery while increasing the radar&#8217;s resistance to jamming

*With the AESA RBE2&#8217;s performance now validated, in line with the contract schedule, Thales will begin series production of equipment for installation on the aircraft under Tranche 4 of the Rafale programme. The Tranche 4 aircraft were ordered by the DGA in 2009 and will be delivered by Dassault Aviation to the French Air Force from 2013.*

*The Rafale will then become the only European combat aircraft to benefit from the operational advantages of AESA radar technology.* The Rafale&#8217;s undisputed superiority is recognised around the world and is a key differentiator in today&#8217;s highly competitive markets.


Thales AESA RBE2 radar validated on Rafale - Thales Group

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## SpArK




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## Skull and Bones

^^^^
Any specs of the radar?


> xtended range for compatibility with the latest generation long range missiles and ability to detect low-signature targets
> Higher module reliability for reduced cost of ownership (no maintenance required on the active array for 10 years)
> Extended waveform agility, making it possible to acquire submetric synthetic aperture (SAR) imagery while increasing the radar&#8217;s resistance to jamming


Don't you think the radar is over-rated while several countries expressed their concern on the performance of the radar?


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## SpArK

Skull and Bones said:


> ^^^^
> Any specs of the radar?
> 
> Don't you think the radar is over-rated while several countries expressed their concern on the performance of the radar?


 

See the video of AESA radar i have posted.. it took me some time to upload that one to youtube.. a few information is there.. and dont you damn forget to click the thanks button...


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## Skull and Bones

SpArK said:


> See the video of AESA radar i have posted.. it took me some time to upload that one to youtube.. a few information is there.. and dont you damn forget to click the thanks button...


Well, that video was a bit boring, according to that video (or advertisement)

Operational benefits: 
*Multitracking* : _Even PESA radar can do that, so what's the point?_
*Countermeasure proof Active antenna (or in short jamming proof)*: _Every AESA radar is, still no point for RBE 2_
*Range increased > 50% *: _From, without the actual data range is irrelevant, and range is measured with respect to any standard rcs. _ 
*Detection of small RCS targets*: _Again, how small? The RCS of the standard target has to given. _
*Reduction of life cycle costs*:_ From? It has to be compared with other AESA is service _

Without the actual data (which is tough to get, coz' most of the data is classified), RBE 2 is just another AESA radar in development, nothing special about it.


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## SpArK

*Thales technologies onboard the Rafale​*





*The Omnirole Fighter*

The Rafale is the most advanced combat aircraft of its generation, delivering multi-mission capability that ensures its war fighting relevance beyond 2040. This highly agile fighter from Dassault Aviation is equipped with cutting edge technologies that make it fast deploying, selfsupporting and combat effective, all within a limited size. The Rafale draws on sophisticated onboard electronic systems to carry out a wide range of missions day or night and in all weather conditions.



Thales provides equipment and systems &#8211; including avionics &#8211; that together account for approximately one third of the total value of each Rafale.



_The Rafale integrates the largest and most modern range of sensors by means of the multisensor data fusion concept that allows the pilot to access global situation awareness and make well-informed tactical decisions. This data fusion process links all sensors via the Modular Data Processing Unit (MDPU) to make the Rafale a truly network centric warfighter._



This multi-sensor capability draws on the Active Electronic Scanning Antenna RBE2 Radar, Spectra electronic warfare system, Front-Sector Optronics, the Damocles optronic multi function pod, and the AREOS new optronic stand-off recce system, among others.



Rafale, with its omnirole capabilities, is the right answer to the capability approach. It fully complies with the requirement to carry out, with a reduced number of aircraft, a wide range of missions: quick reaction alert/air-defence/air sovereignty missions, power projection and deployments for external missions, deep strike missions, air support for ground forces, reconnaissance missions, pilot training sorties and nuclear deterrence duties.



Breakthrough Thales technologies can be found throughout this superior aircraft, from its cockpit to its warfare system. With an architecture designed for full scalability, these systems ensure the Rafale will continue to be at the cutting edge of warfighting innovation.



*Thales and Detection*


*AESA RBE2*



The largest sensor onboard the Rafale is the new generation Thales AESA RBE2 radar. The RBE2, Europe&#8217;s first Active Electronically Scanned Array radar, takes combat system performance to a new level. It replaces the conventional antenna and its mechanical steering system, and has allowed for greater reliability with respect to previous-generation radars.



The RBE2 will give the Rafale the capability to track all targets in the radar field of view,

irrespective of the relative location between targets and host aircraft. Other operational

benefits include the detection of targets with low radar reflectivity and improved high quality ground imaging. The RBE2&#8217;s high performance air-to-air detection will make it possible to detect smaller targets and to detect them earlier.



The industrialisation phase for the RBE2 was launched in 2006. Final validation of software functions is expected to end in the first quarter of 2010, with delivery of the radars to Dassault Aviation.



*Front-Sector Optronics*

Thales&#8217;s Front-Sector Optronics (FSO) system is fully integrated into the Rafale to provide covert long-range detection and identification, high-resolution angular tracking and laser range-finding for air, sea and ground targets. Operating in optical avelengths, this sensor is immune to radar jamming.



The FSO contributes to air situation awareness and reinforces the Rafale's capabilities to operate in severe environments. Lasers for measuring target distance give the sensor highprecision 3D localisation capabilities. Its near-visible waveband capability is especially valuable with its narrow field for identifying possible targets in situations where visual contact is required by the Rules of Engagement or during quick reaction alerts.



*Thales and Electronic Warfare*


*Spectra*

The Rafale is equipped with the Spectra electronic warfare system, giving the aircraft a multispectral threat warning capability against hostile radars, missiles and lasers. This system is fully integrated into the Rafale for excellent survivability against air and ground threats.



Spectra also contributes to passive tactical situation awareness, all-weather long-range

detection, identification and location of threats, within a short response time. The system&#8217;s cutting-edge defensive measures are based on combinations of omni-directional AESA jamming, multi-band decoying and evasive manoeuvres, as well as on state-of-the-art technologies such as Digital Radio Frequency Memory (DRFM) signal processing.



Spectra&#8217;s angular location on the aircraft allows it to locate ground threats, to target them for destruction with precision-guided munitions, or to avoid them. Its threat library &#8211; which can be defined, integrated and updated on short notice by users in the home country &#8211; is instrumental to this performance. As operations unfold, protection onboard the Rafale can be continuously and fluidly enhanced using the system.



*Thales and Mission Systems*


*Modular Data Processing Unit (MDPU)*

Enough growth potential has been built into the Rafale to ensure that its design maintains warfighting relevance for several decades. The Modular Data Processing Unit (MDPU) is the cornerstone of this avionics/ weapon upgradeability. Its modular architecture makes for a system that is highly adaptable, allowing straightforward integration of new avionics or new ordnance.



Sensor data fusion draws on the computing power of the MDPU to process data from the AESA RBE2 radar, the Front-Sector Optronic system, the SPECTRA system, the IFF, the missile seekers and the data-link (L16 or custom).


*Damocles Optronic Pod*

The Thales Damocles multifunction targeting pod draws on its laser designation function to give the Rafale full day and night laser-guided weapon capabilities. Damocles is interoperable with all existing laser-guided weapons and provides outstanding performances for long-distance recognition.



Damocles makes use of an embedded digital recorder to provide tactical reconnaissance with post-flight image analysis. The pod includes a forward-looking infrared navigation module that provides an image presented to the pilot in the cockpit. An infrared sensor also operates on Damocles in the mid-wave infrared band, allowing the system to retain its effectiveness in warm and/or humid conditions.



*AREOS system*

The AREOS Reco NG (Airborne and Reconnaissance and Observation) system is designed to meet a full spectrum of global operational requirements onboard the Rafale and withstand diverse weather conditions and scenarios. This pod integrates state-of-the-art digital technology both in its sensor and detector solutions, and its real/deferred time transmission capability.



AREOS reduces cycle times for detection, decision and action so as to more quickly meet evolving mission demands. AREOS&#8217;s operational automatic imagery collection modes allow it to be easily integrated onto single seat aircraft, such as the Rafale.


*Mission debriefing system*

Thales supplies the mission debriefing system onboard the Rafale. This system simultaneously displays the aircraft&#8217;s trajectories in two- and three-dimensions via eight video displays and one audio emitter. It also depicts the movements and whereabouts of other aircraft involved in the same mission, as well as of air-to-air missiles fired. The misión debriefing is in service with the French Air Force.


Thales and Communication, Navigation, Identification (CNI)


*CNI suite*

Thales provides the full Communication, Navigation, Identification (CNI) suite &#8211; including voice communications, Tactical Data Link, landing and radio navigation systems and Identification Friend and Foe functions - onboard the Rafale. The digital radio transceivers allow the Rafale to manage plain voice, secure voice, data link and image transmission modes for Air-to-Air and Air-to-Surface communications in VHF and UHF bands.



*Tactical Data Link*

Thales has developed a complete range of Tactical Data Link (TDL) solutions. Onboard the Rafale, these solutions offer a secure source of tactical data, including situation awareness, command & control, electronic warfare, orders and reports, flight pass and fighter-to-fighter information. Among other key players in combined air operations, this data is used with fellow aircraft in the formation, airborne and surface command and control centres, forward air controllers, etc.


*
Identification Friend-or-Foe Combined Interrogator Transponders
*
Thales TSB 2500 IFF is a family of Combined Interrogator Transponders that are fully

compliant with civil (including mode S), NATO (including mode 4/5) and/or national secure modes (NSM). The Rafale is equipped with an E-Scan version, which includes an Antenna Control Unit (ACU) for electronically steering the antenna.



*Thales in the Cockpit*

Thales supplies Dassault with most of the displays for the cockpit. For short-term actions, the Rafale pilot relies on the holographic head-up display (HUD), with a wide-field-of-view (30°x22°), for head-up flying. For medium and long-term actions, the multi-image head-level display (HLD) allows analysis of the global tactical situation through its 20°x20° screen. The HLD picture is focused at the same distance as the HUD picture to allow for fast eye transitions between head-up and head-level flying and the external world's view.



*Thales and Electrical Systems*

Thales is a world reference for variable frequency power generation and has integrated this technology onboard the Rafale to reduce the aircraft&#8217;s weight and maintenance costs.



Variable frequency technology is characterized by better efficiency than constant frequency technology traditionally used on aircraft. The system takes mechanical power from the engine of the aircraft and transforms it into electricity to power systems onboard, such as the Rafale&#8217;s electrical flight control systems.


*Thales and Training & Simulation*

Thales, Sogitec and Dassault Aviation have together successfully developed two pilot

training centres to support the training of Rafale fighter pilots. The French Air Force and Navy rely on the Saint-Dizier Rafale simulation centre in Eastern France to train pilots for this prestigious aircraft and in 2009 added a second Rafale simulation centre at the Landivisiau naval air base in North-western France. The two simulation centres will soon be networked so they can carry out joint training missions.



The simulator cockpits recreate a realistic environment for the pilot. Rafale pilots can perform individual or crew missions in a complex tactical environment including aerial combat using data link (L16), ground attack, in-flight refuelling, aircraft carrier launches, deck landings and taking into account the evolution of weather conditions.



*Thales and Support*

Thales also provides services for the Rafale, reducing life cycle costs for the aircraft and ensuring that each system onboard remains efficient and effective. Thales&#8217;s long life and easy through-life support is forged through its world-class ILS (Integrated Logistic Support), obsolescence management, supply chain optimisation, as well as rapid repair and overhaul.

Rafale Thales


----------



## SpArK

*Italian Eurofighter Typhoons And Danish F-16s In Joint Exercise 'Winter Hide' !!​*

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## kingdurgaking

SpArK said:


> Thales AESA RBE2 radar validated on Rafale - Thales Group


 
Saw from another site that No of modules is around 850? is this true? if it is true... it is a very bad one... not even to the level that others are trying to offer


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## jha

RAFALE seems to be loosing the race..850 TR modules ( if true ) will be one of the many setbacks in RAFALE's campaign..


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## luckyyy

jha said:


> RAFALE seems to be loosing the race..850 TR modules ( if true ) will be one of the many setbacks in RAFALE's campaign..


 
with 850 T/R , radar range for 2.5m2 RCS target will be around 100km..

both amarican and russia has AESA with 1500T/R with a range of 150km...
russian offered a improve version of their AESA with more diameter and T/R with a range of 200km..
Both F-16/18 has nerrow nose so the radar diameter or T/R can not be improve any more , where as with mig-35 having wider nose , diameter of their radar can be improve by putting the radar a bit back..


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## dbc

luckyyy said:


> Both F-16/18 has nerrow nose so the radar diameter or T/R can not be improve any more , where as with mig-35 having wider nose , diameter of their radar can be improve by putting the radar a bit back..


 
The APG-79 is built using advanced packaging techniques like Flip Chip to embed twice the number of MMIC's on a single PCB(printed circuit board).
Future growth is easily achieved by switching the GaA chips with GaN chips.


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## sancho

Skull and Bones said:


> Without the actual data (which is tough to get, coz' most of the data is classified), RBE 2 is just another AESA radar in development, nothing special about it.


 
Most of those infos will be classified, the only figurs to compare that sometimes come out are for range, or detection/tracking and engaging targets at the same time.

The detection range is depending on the power for the radar and the number of TR modules integrated on the radar array, that again is depending on the nose diameter. Don't have the figures for power yet, but the number of TR modules is something like that:

1. EF - 1400+
2. F18SH - 1100
3. Mig 35 / F16IN / Gripen NG - 1000
4. Rafale - between 850 and 1000 (older pics shows up to 970 modules)


Still trying to collect reliable figures for target detection and engaging, these are the numbers I have so far:

1. Rafale - track 40, engage 8
2. Mig 35 - track 30, engage 6
3. F16IN - track 20, engage 4


The Rafale has the smallest nose, that's why it's not surprising that it falls back in numbers of modules and range. The reason for that is also clear, because they integrated the FSO into the nose as well, which means the radar can not use the full size of the nose. However, they did this on purpose, because they don't focus on detection via radar alone. Rafales main advantage is that it uses multi spectral sensor infos, to get high situational awareness, be it of the radar, the FSO, MICA IR seekers, data links, or all the sensors of SPECTRA. 
They compromised on radar range, but focused on passive detection capabilities instead and so far it is the only fighter in the competition, that was able to shoot missiles, just guided by the SPECTRA EWS, completely passive!

To to understand what kind of advantage that is, consider an EF with AESA radar turned on, alongside an Rafale in passive mode and both are heading towards a stealth fighter with its AESA turned on as well.
The stealth fighter will detect the EF and Rafale at long range, while the EF radar can't detect anything even if it's only 150Km away. The Rafale instead can detect radar signals with it's RWR up to 200Km away (twice the range of EFs RWR) and altough it can't track, or guide a missile at that range, it knows that an aircraft is there way earlier than the EF. 

During the ATLC exercise in the UAE, the Rafale got several BVR kills against the EF, although they still had the RBE 2 PESA radar only. EF normally should have a good advantage in BVR, going by paper specs (longer range radar, longer range missiles, low RCS, carries 6 x AAMs in every mission), but a passive Rafale is hard to detect too, because it has a low RCS and don't emits any signals. They guided their MICA missiles with SPECTRA EWS, after identifying the opponent with the TV channel of FSO, all completely passive without even the need to use the radar. 

In times of low RCSs, or even stealth fighters, you have to have other detection capabilities than radar too, which shows what potential the Rafale has!
IRST is one way, but it's depending on the weather conditions, that's why EWS / ESM capabilities will have a bigger influence in future and we can see it at the F35 as well. It uses similar techs and features like the Rafale with SPECTRA to get increased long range situational awareness and couples them with the infos from the AESA radar, or other aircrafts. 

Now lets take the example from above once again and replace the Rafale with our Su 30 MKI, flying next to EF. Both have long range radar and offers super maneuverability and high speeds, but EF won't have an advantage of detecting the enemy over MKI, because both focus on radar detection mainly, IRST secondly and using the EWS mainly for self defense.
But if we look at the same situation with Rafale and MKI, we will see again, the advantage of Rafale and how good it complements the MKI with new features. They still won't have much chances against a stealth fighter in BVR, but against JF 17, F16 B50/B52, J10, J11, even out numbered, that will be a hell of a combo! 

AESA radar is a main requirement and the French are leading in Europe in this field, in 2014 when the first MMRCA squadron will be available, the radar will be in production for 6 years and be more mature, while Gripen radar is hardly developed, EF radar not even available, let alone mature. 
So if the RBE 2 AESA radar offers the detection range that IAF requires, according to the RFP, the smaller size won't be a reason dismiss Rafale.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## sancho

jha said:


> RAFALE seems to be loosing the race..850 TR modules ( if true ) will be one of the many setbacks in RAFALE's campaign..


 
Hi Jha, many setbacks like? 




luckyyy said:


> with 850 T/R , radar range for 2.5m2 RCS target will be around 100km..
> 
> both amarican and russia has AESA with 1500T/R with a range of 150km...
> *russian offered a improve version of their AESA with more diameter and T/R with a range of 200km..*
> Both F-16/18 has nerrow nose so the radar diameter or T/R can not be improve any more , where as with mig-35 having wider nose , diameter of their radar can be improve by putting the radar a bit back..



As I told you before and the Aero India specs now proven, they claimed to bring it up to 200Km, but haven't shown it, let alone having it ready and operational like the French. The early Zhuk AE had a diameter of 575mm only and offered a range of 130Km for a 3m2 RCS target. The specs shown at AI says, diameter of 688mm now, but detection of the same target at 160Km. They added more than 100mm and now have approx 1000 TR modules, but increased the detection range only by 30Km, so how much do they have to add to get the missing 40Km? Do they want to fit a Flanker nose on the Mig?

https://picasaweb.google.com/110614958773855914651/AeroIndia2011#5571669691433921218


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## Agnostic_Indian

^so it's not the length of nose but width matters in accommodating bigger powerful radar ?


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## luckyyy

sancho said:


> The specs shown at AI says, diameter of 688mm now,* but detection of the same target at 160Km.* They added more than 100mm and now have approx 1000 TR modules, but increased the detection range only by 30Km, so how much do they have to add to get *the missing 40Km? *
> 
> So if the RBE 2 AESA radar offers the *detection range that IAF requires, according to the RFP, the smaller size won't be a reason dismiss Rafale.*


 
when it comes to rafale you are advocating according to the RFP..
when it comes to mig-35 , you are calculating well above and maximun RFP.....


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## baker

> India should buy the best planes. But Prime Minister Manmohan Singh may force US aircraft upon the Air Force.
> 
> Intense dogfights were witnessed last week at Aero India 2011 in Bangalore between eight countries representing six fighter aircraft for clinching Indias biggest defence contract: The 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft worth $10 billion. The aircraft are Boeings F/A-18 Super Hornet, Lockheed Martins F-16 IN Super Viper, MiG Corporations MiG-35, Saabs Gripen NG, Dassaults Raphael and a four-nation European consortiums Eurofighter, Typhoon.
> 
> For the United States, which in the last five years has sold more defence equipment to India than it has in the last 50, bagging the deal has become both a prestige issue as well as a return for its critical investment in the India-US strategic partnership epitomised by the 123 civil nuclear agreement.
> 
> Lobbying for the contract is picking up as the sealed envelope containing the short list will be opened in the Ministry of Defence in April or May this year and the contract signed either in September 2011 or March 2012. The commercial bids by the six contestants are also sealed and kept with the Ministry of Defence.
> 
> From US President Barack Obama to Carnegie Endowments Ashley Tellis, all are canvassing for the US fighter aircraft and hinting it is payback time for India: 126 after 123. In April, US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton will be in New Delhi for the India-US strategic dialogue just when the envelope will be unsealed.
> 
> Last week US Principal Deputy Assistant Secretary for South and Central Asia Geoffrey Pyatt, at a policy forum in Singapore, spoke about Washingtons preparedness to share with India now, the most advanced technology in the defence and economic domain. He said the US was talking to New Delhi a lot about the two strong American competitors for the 126 MMRCA deal.
> 
> Such a deal if it happened, he added, would revolutionise our military relationship. Also last week, Mr Andrew Shapiro, US Assistant Secretary of State, Political and Military Bureau at the State Department, was in New Delhi, pitching for military sales among other items of defence cooperation.
> 
> Indian defence analysts have told their American counterparts that despite certain glitches the Indo-Russian strategic partnership has endured. While Russia has leased a nuclear submarine to India for a second time, unpleasant memories of the US cutting critical supplies still linger. The political content of the India-US strategic partnership has to touch greater heights of mutual trust.
> 
> In 2005, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh noted that politics plays a big part in defence deals. Indians are only too familiar with the political inducements of the Swedish Government on late Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi in 1987 over the Bofors contract and the Russian cajolery of Prime Minister PV Narasimha Rao in 1991 over the Sukhoi deal consummated without any evaluation.
> 
> Another dicey contract was the one on Mirage 2000 brokered in 1982 jointly by Mr Sanjay Gandhi and Defence Secretary KPA Menon, once again without any technical evaluation as the aircraft did not exist. They tried to scuttle the perfectly legitimate Jaguar contract of 1978 negotiated by the Morarji Desai-led Janata Party Government but the British authorities blocked the attempt. While mega cost defence acquisitions were driven by political considerations (and kickbacks) quality of equipment was not compromised.
> 
> Industrialist Ratan Tata flew the F-18 and actor Shahid Kapoor piloted the F-16. The single-engine F-16 was also flown by the Indian Air Forces most versatile and highly decorated fighter pilot Retd Air Marshal Jimmy Bhatia at Bangalore. None of their efforts will enhance the rating of these fighters in the IAFs technical, flight and staff evaluation chart. The F-16 is a non-flyer because the Pakistan Air Force has had it in its inventory for 30 years. The twin-engine F-18 seems to have also missed the mark. The Russian MiG 35, a souped up MiG 29 did not show up in Bangalore. The Gripen is a great aircraft but single-engine and a lightweight equivalent of an improved Tejas LCA.
> 
> That leaves the two high-priced European contenders, Rafael and Typhoon, neck-and-neck in the race. Rather late in the day, Lockheed Martin and US Under Secretary of State for Defence Ashton Carter have indicated willingness to include India in the F-35 Advanced Stealth Fighter Programme.
> 
> India and Russia are already engaged in jointly developing the fifth generation fighter aircraft. That practically closes the door for an American fighter joining the IAF inventory. Two years ago senior IAF officers were even recommending splitting the 126 MMRCA between US and Russia.
> 
> The sealed envelope with its performance rating of the six aircraft was handed over by the IAF to the Ministry of Defence in July 2010 but a parallel dogfight is on over the offset policy between those for and against it. The MMRCA procurement procedure has been complicated by an unviable offset policy and unrealistic FDI cap of 26 per cent.
> 
> The six companies competing for the MMRCA were asked to explain their offset strategy by end this month. Authoritative sources in the IAF are drawing a possible option: On the short list are the two twin-engine European fighters, Rafael and Typhoon, both excellent but very expensive aircraft at a flyaway cost upwards of $100 million apiece. This is distinct from the lifecycle cost which could increase by 25 per cent. A third contender, the American F-18, could sneak into the short list.
> 
> Next month, when the commercial bids are opened, L1 (lowest bidder) will be invited to negotiate the final cost with the Price Negotiating Committee.
> 
> Ashley Telliss report, titled Dogfight  Indias MMRCA Decision, highlights how the IAF has declined 29 fighter squadrons and only by 2017 will they be restored to the authorised 39.5 squadrons. He believes that cost, technology transfers and the facility to fit into the evolving IAF force structure will determine the choice. He says that while European aircraft are technically superb, US entrants with older designs are best buys. The US offer should be compensated, he adds, by generous technology transfer and assured access to fifth generation aircraft.
> 
> Union Minister for Defence AK Antony has repeatedly and emotionally, said that merit not politics will decide the winning aircraft. Yet only the US has the will and capacity to help raise Indias global power profile. Prime Minister Manmohan Singhs political instinct may let the F-18 plus fly into the ultimate deal.



The Pioneer :: Home : >> IAF set to soar again


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## jha

For RAFALE lovers...

*Rafale F3 and AREOS Reco NG: the 21st century reconnaissance team *






_*The AREOS Reco NG pod, an integral part of the F3 standard for Rafale fighters, brings France into the world of all-digital reconnaissance. *_

_As a veritable &#8220;omnirole&#8221; fighter, the Rafale has already replaced several types of warplanes in the French air force and navy. This trend is set to continue in the coming years with the retirement of France&#8217;s last Mirage F-1 fighters, the carrier-borne modernized Super Etendard and the oldest members of the Mirage 2000 fleet. The Rafale F3 will therefore take over the reconnaissance role, for which it deploys a dedicated system, the AREOS Reco NG pod developed by Thales. _

The French air force has already ordered a dozen pods, and the French navy another eight. Several series of deck landing and catapult launch tests have validated the pod&#8217;s use on aircraft carriers. 

*Tactical and strategic *

*The AREOS Reco NG pod is 4.6 meters long (15 ft.) and weighs 1,100 kg (2,420 lb), making it compatible with the Rafale, as well as the Mirage 2000 if needed. Up front on the pod, the HA/MA (high altitude/medium altitude) optical sensor supports photography at medium range, or even long-range at standoff distance. The AREOS Reco NG offers an identification range of several tens of kilometers &#8211; two to three times the range of the Presto pod currently deployed on Mirage F1CR aircraft in Afghanistan.* 

*Located aft in the AREOS pod, the low-altitude sensor supports horizon to horizon photography at an altitude of only 60 meters (200 ft) and very high speeds. The pod operates automatically, whether working in intermittent, zone coverage or terrain-following mode, and always knows its exact position in space, so that it can control the pointing of its optical sensors in both pitch and roll. 

Its control capability is based on data transmitted by its own inertial reference system, correlated with data from the nav-attack system on the aircraft itself. As soon as the shots are taken, they are automatically overlaid on a digital elevation model, geo-referenced and assembled to provide a complete mosaic of the target. 

The images are then stored on a hard disk in the pod. They can be transmitted to a ground image receiving and processing station in real time, via a high-speed microwave link. 

The recce pod can also operate in video mode by using successive images, and by measuring the displacement of a moving object from one image to another, it can estimate its speed. *

Battlefield trials based on a hundred test flights enabled the CEAM military aircraft test center to validate the operation of the sensors and their tactical use in conjunction with the Rafale(1). 

Test flights covered the full range of scenarios, from conventional to unusual, including tests of opportunity targets involving aircraft being reassigned in the middle of their sortie, through the L16 datalink. 

&#8220;The pod is very easy to operate,&#8221; emphasizes Lieutenant-Colonel Jean-Philippe Scherer, the officer in charge of the AREOS Reco NG program at CEAM. &#8220;The crew sees a pointer on their digital map with a mission request. All they have to do is indicate that they accept the mission and slave the pod to the pointer. It&#8217;s fast, easy, and there&#8217;s no risk of a misunderstanding, since no radio communications are involved.&#8221; 

Unrivaled 

The teams at CEAM who subjected the Rafale-AREOS Reco NG duo to the toughest tests they could think of are very pleased. 

&#8220;The daytime images are excellent,&#8221; says Lieutenant-Colonel Scherer. &#8220;Our objectives for night imaging, especially long-range infrared shots, were just as ambitious. The initial results are encouraging, but we&#8217;re now waiting for new adjustments to further boost performance.&#8221; 

With this dual capacity, tactical and long-range, day and night, the Rafale F3/AREOS Reco NG duo is unrivaled worldwide. The first crews from operational units were trained at CEAM this summer. Several weeks later, the system reached its initial operating limit for appropriate missions, for example in foreign theaters of operation. Reflecting this capability, the pod is now deployed on the Charles-de-Gaulle aircraft carrier. By the end of the year, it will open its operating envelope to include terrain following during penetration flights, which is nearly as complex as a nuclear mission. 

When this capability is added, the pod will officially be in service. &#8220;We&#8217;re eagerly awaiting the advent of this pod, since it&#8217;s a vital part of the Rafale F3,&#8221; concludes Lieutenant-Colonel Scherer.

Rafale F3 and AREOS Reco NG: the 21st century reconnaissance team


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## sancho

luckyyy said:


> when it comes to rafale you are advocating according to the RFP..
> when it comes to mig-35 , you are calculating well above and maximun RFP.....


 
Not really, I just doubt the additional range they claim for Zhuk AE on Mig 35, on basis of what is known so far and with the problems they have with weight. It might offer more range than the RBE 2, but is far away from beeing ready and compared to the other radars, it falls even short too. 
Even with less radar range compared to the Mig (and the difference based on reliable sources is hardly 20Km so far), I put my money on Rafale in BVR, because of lower RCS, better BVR weapons, passive detection and weapon guidance, superior EWS.


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## sancho

jha said:


> For RAFALE lovers...
> 
> *Rafale F3 and AREOS Reco NG: the 21st century reconnaissance team *


 
Not an important feature for us I guess, but just another proof for it's true multi role capabilities and that it fulfills all the roles it was developed and design for:



> When the RAFALE programme was launched, the Armée de lAir and the Marine Nationale (the French Air Force and the French Navy) published a joint requirement for a balanced multirole aircraft that would be able to replace seven types of combat aircraft then in use.
> 
> The new aircraft would have to be able to carry out an extremely wide range of missions:
> 
> - Air-defence / air-superiority,
> - Reconnaissance,
> - Close air support,
> - Precision strike / interdiction with conventional weapons
> (air-to-ground and anti-ship attacks),
> - Nuclear strikes.


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## dbc

sancho said:


> To to understand what kind of advantage that is, consider an EF with AESA radar turned on, alongside an Rafale in passive mode and both are heading towards a stealth fighter with its AESA turned on as well.
> The stealth fighter will detect the EF and Rafale at long range, while the *EF radar can't detect anything even if it's only 150Km away*. The *Rafale instead can detect radar signals with it's RWR up to 200Km away (twice the range of EFs RWR) and altough it can't track, or guide a missile at that range, it knows that an aircraft is there way earlier than the EF.
> *




Your claim is dubious, the Typhoon will detect the presence of emitters at similar ranges as the Rafale or Gripen. DASS has the ability to accurately triangulate the position of an emitter at distances of 100km. The ability to accurately determine the position of an emitter is limited to 100km but it can detect emitters at much greater distances. Locating the exact position of an emitter and detecting the presence of an emitter does not mean the same thing. 



> The DASS is to be a highly modular system. Each DASS has five processors, developed and produced by Radstone Technology PLC (Towcester, UK). The DASS will consists of a radar-warning-receiver/electronic-support-measures (RWR/ESM) unit with an initial frequency range of 100 MHz to 18 GHz (unconfirmed by company or users), which is probably to be increased to 40 GHz for Tranche 2/Block 10. The RWR/ESM system works with the use of a wideband super-heterodyne system able to perform quick searches for electromagnetic emitters. The processor of the RWR/ESM system will be able to locate emitters through triangulation conducted in sequence. *The accuracy of the RWR/ESM is to be below one degree in azimuth. The distance of the exact location of emitters (to the sides of the aircraft, where detection will be more accurate) is to be at least 100 km*. The identification of emitters will enable threat prioritization, with information presented on a moving map or on any multifunction display as needed.
> 
> Another important part of the DASS is a built-in electronic-countermeasures (ECM) system with the same spherical (360-degree) coverage around the aircraft as the RWR/ESM and (probably) the same frequency coverage. The ECM system is to work in several different modes and use directional beams for deception or noise jamming against threat emitters tracked by the RWR/ESM system. According to some sources, this part of the DASS on Italian aircraft was developed by Elettronica and is called Cross Eye



Typhoon arises: the Eurofighter Typhoon, though often criticized, represents the state-of-the-air in European military technology. | Goliath Business News



sancho said:


> During the ATLC exercise in the UAE, the Rafale got several BVR kills against the EF, although they still had the RBE 2 PESA radar only. EF normally should have a good advantage in BVR, going by paper specs (longer range radar, longer range missiles, low RCS, carries 6 x AAMs in every mission), but a passive Rafale is hard to detect too, because it has a low RCS and *don't emits any signals. They guided their MICA missiles with SPECTRA EWS*, after identifying the opponent with the TV channel of FSO, all completely passive without even the need to use the radar.



Another dubious claim, if the Rafale is not emitting how is it guiding the missile. Missile guidance requires transmissions from the launching or guiding platform, the exception is 'end game' when the missile seeker becomes active. How does the Rafale guide a missile without transmitting guidance data to the missile? 

French claims of domination over the EuroFighter at ATLC is unproven, participating RAF pilots continue to honor the agreement to limit training discussions to the debrief - the RAF side of the story is not known, Colonel Grandclaudon claims are controversial and have been challenged by aviation journalist covering the ATLC exercise.


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## dbc

the rafter said:


> See, don't get me wrong, I found it out of context because of the french link you posted (Le détachement français en action sur le salon Aeroindia) had nothing like you had quoted. *I just thought you hate Rafale so much that you misinterpreted*.
> In any case, apart from Eurofighter Aero India 2011 blog I did not find any other reliable sources confirming the failure of Rafale. But again, I'm not shrugging in disbelief, it could have very well happened. I do think Rafale has its own set of problems (not sure how many?). Though the French have been a reliable defense partner of India and their Mirage 2000 is the best example. Eurofighter could be a better choice if it was little more mature in A to G, AESA and price. I do understand your point about the "Butterfly effect" and welcome your concern. I hope Sancho will provide some clarification regarding the Aero India incident?


 
I don't hate the Rafale, I dislike Rafale fan boys.


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## SpArK

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> I don't hate the Rafale, I dislike Rafale fan boys.


 
But we like Rafale fan girls

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## SpArK

*The MMRCA Pecking Order Poll​*
Go to the site and vote​

By shiv aroor


In the next three weeks, the Indian medium multirole combat aircraft (MMRCA) competition will move into a decisive phase -- price negotiations. 

A very specific ranking order exists in the trial report that was submitted to the government following field evaluation trials last year. Journalists at Aero India were selectively leaked information about this so-called pecking order. I've decided to hold out on the specifics until there's greater clarity. However, there's already an overwhelming sense of where the competition is headed. 

At the same time, there's still some very important work ahead before a final decision can be made. As always, it's never over until it's over.

Thought I'd ask you guys what you thought, based on everything that's been reported over the last 10 days.

Vote below:LINK


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## Paan Singh

jiski average sab se jayada hogi,india wohi purchase karega


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## SpArK

ROFL... stupid poll. 

EF votes are splitted.. anyway EF seems to be the choice of the most.


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## sancho

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Your claim is dubious, the Typhoon will detect the presence of emitters at similar ranges as the Rafale or Gripen. DASS has the ability to accurately triangulate the position of an emitter at distances of 100km. The ability to accurately determine the position of an emitter is limited to 100km but it can detect emitters at much greater distances. Locating the exact position of an emitter and detecting the presence of an emitter does not mean the same thing.
> 
> And Rafale is given with up to 200Km, not sure how you calculate that, but for me that is more.
> 
> 
> Another dubious claim, if the Rafale is not emitting how is it guiding the missile. Missile guidance requires transmissions from the launching or guiding platform, the exception is 'end game' when the missile seeker becomes active. How does the Rafale guide a missile without transmitting guidance data to the missile?
> 
> French claims of domination over the EuroFighter at ATLC is unproven, participating RAF pilots continue to honor the agreement to limit training discussions to the debrief - the RAF side of the story is not known, Colonel Grandclaudon claims are controversial and have been challenged by aviation journalist covering the ATLC exercise.



The key difference is, that Rafale uses passive detection and localisation sensors, while EF RWR are active:



> Radar Warning Receiver (RWR)
> 
> One of the fundamental sensors available to a modern fighter is its radar. However the use of such a system also puts an aircraft at risk since, as an active system it emits electromagnetic radiation. The DASS is equipped with Radar Warning Receivers (RWRs) designed to detect such emissions. The particular units used are Super Heterodyne (SuperHet) based wide-band receivers and are located in the port side pod (both front and rear) and within the aircraft's fuselage giving full 360° coverage in azimuth (elevation coverage is currently unknown).



Eurofighter Technology and Performance : Defences


Regarding ATLC, even RAF pilots admits that they were shot down, but says that these encounters happend before the initial exercise and that there were kills on both sides. However, my point was only that Rafale has proven this capability and not only in A2A, but also in A2G by detecting ground radars and guiding AASM via Spectra. EF neither has this capability, nor the weapons to do the same yet. Actually that are the fields where it lacks behin the most, weapon integration and tech upgrades and so far it is still unclear what capabilities the T3 will have.


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## Markus

I am afraid to what the IAF chief had said a few days back.

All those companies who will loose will complain to the CVC and the entire MMRCA acquisition will be delayed by few months.

And if that happens I will open my own factory and manufacture my own Rafales'


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## mautkimaut

Prism said:


> jiski average sab se jayada hogi,india wohi purchase karega


 





Like we purchase Tanks?


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## sancho

SpArK said:


> ROFL... stupid poll.
> 
> EF votes are splitted.. anyway EF seems to be the choice of the most.


 
I think that's the 3rd, or 4th poll he starts on MMRCA right? Btw, did you commented on his Rafale ride? L... B... sounded familiar.


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## sancho

Markus said:


> I am afraid to what the IAF chief had said a few days back.
> 
> All those companies who will loose will complain to the CVC and the entire MMRCA acquisition will be delayed by few months.
> 
> And if that happens I will open my own factory and manufacture my own Rafales'



 Who knows, wouldn't be the first time that foreign vendors complain about it and the competition had to be scrapped and reoppend, but it's IAF/MoD responsibility to give out clear rules from the start and to disqualify all that don't fulfill them. I bet there will be complains about the delays of the trials and that Saab was able to field the NG 1 month later than planned...


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## Markus

sancho said:


> Who knows, wouldn't be the first time that foreign vendors complain about it and the competition had to be scrapped and reoppend, but it's IAF/MoD responsibility to give out clear rules from the start and to disqualify all that don't fulfill them. I bet there will be complains about the delays of the trials and that Saab was able to field the NG 1 month later than planned...


 
Buddy, lets hope we get our planes on time.

If anything goes wrong with the delivery of MMRCA, it will be a big tragedy for IAF.


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## SpArK

sancho said:


> I think that's the 3rd, or 4th poll he starts on MMRCA right? Btw, did you commented on his Rafale ride? L... B... sounded familiar.


 
Yup i did commented. on that one..


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## sancho

SpArK said:


> Yup i did commented. on that one..


 
I knew it and x2 that!

Reactions: Like Like:
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## SpArK

sancho said:


> I knew it and x2 that!


 
Just an offtopic question. Have u come across in any forums or anywhere else , any article regarding the Dakshin prahar exercise happened in my city along the dates of Aero India.. I havent found anything on it which is worthy of reading...


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## dbc

sancho said:


> The key difference is, that Rafale uses passive detection and localisation sensors, *while EF RWR are active*:
> 
> 
> 
> Eurofighter Technology and Performance : Defences
> 
> 
> Regarding ATLC, even RAF pilots admits that they were shot down, but says that these encounters happend before the initial exercise and that there were kills on both sides. However, my point was only that Rafale has proven this capability and not only in A2A, but also in A2G by *detecting ground radars and guiding AASM via Spectra*]. EF neither has this capability, nor the weapons to do the same yet. Actually that are the fields where it lacks behin the most, weapon integration and tech upgrades and so far it is still unclear what capabilities the T3 will have.




You did not answer the question I posed earlier, if Spectra or Rafale is not transmitting how is it able to provide mid course updates to MICA?
I have no trouble acknowledging that spectra is able to detect a emitter passively this is not unique to the Rafale - all MMRCA fighters have that ability.

Stationary surface emitters can be attacked using target coordinates provided by Spectra prior to AASM release - but aerial targets are highly mobile. How does Spectra send mid course updates without emitting? Unless the missile seeker acquires the target before launch (close range active BVR shot). 

You claim EuroFighters RWR is active? the words Radar Warning *Receiver*(RWR) implies the RWR receives emissions therefore is PASSIVE.


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## the rafter

*US doubts over India jet fighter partner*
By James Lamont in New Delhi
Published: February 17 2011 19:50 | Last updated: February 17 2011 19:50
The US government has expressed doubt about the suitability of corporate partnership with an Indian state aerospace company as Boeing and Lockheed Martin bid to supply New Delhi with 126 strike fighters.
Any winning bidder would have to work with Bangalore-based Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd, which has in the past worked closely with Russian, British and French defence companies and produced an estimated 3,600 aircraft and helicopters. HAL&#8217;s turnover last year was $2.5bn.

&#8220;The potential for HAL to successfully partner with US firms on a truly advanced aircraft remains untested and suspect,&#8221; Timothy Roemer, US ambassador to Delhi, wrote in a confidential cable released by WikiLeaks and seen by the FT.

After a visit to the company&#8217;s plant in Bangalore in February 2010, he described India&#8217;s aviation industry as &#8220;two to three decades behind the United States and other western nations&#8221; despite advances.

Mr Roemer was also struck by the lack of automation and safety precautions at the HAL plant, adding that US companies needed to &#8220;approach partnerships carefully to understand the management and technological experience of Indian firms&#8221;.

The US embassy in New Delhi said it could not &#8220;confirm the authenticity&#8221; of the cable, adding that the US State Department did not comment on classified documents that may have been leaked.

Mr Roemer based part of his assessment on difficulties BAE Systems, the British defence company, had experienced with HAL over the assembly of Hawk training aircraft &#8211; a project that fell behind schedule.

&#8220;BAE technicians supervising work at HAL became aware that parts were being taken from the kits intended to assemble new aircraft and used instead as replacement parts for the aircraft already delivered,&#8221; wrote the ambassador, a former Congressman from Indiana. &#8220;Lack of controls left BAE unsure of what parts were now missing from the kits.&#8221;

BAE said: &#8220;All the spare parts ordered were and have been delivered to schedule&#8221;. 

Boeing said it enjoyed a &#8220;productive partnership&#8221; with HAL, building parts for the Boeing 777 airliner and the F/A-18 fighter jet. Orville Prins, Lockheed&#8217;s vice-president, business development India, said Lockheed could &#8220;ensure HAL will be successful&#8221; as a partner to produce F-16s.

Ashok Nayak, the chairman of HAL, said he was unaware of Mr Roemer&#8217;s assessment and declined to comment.
The US is pitching for what is one of the world&#8217;s largest military contracts, worth $11bn. Boeing&#8217;s F/A-18 Super Hornet and Lockheed&#8217;s F-16 Super Viper are vying with the Eurofighter Typhoon, Saab&#8217;s Gripen, Dassault&#8217;s Rafale and Russia&#8217;s MiG-35 in a competition expected to be decided this year.

FT.com / Companies / Aerospace & Defence - US doubts over India jet fighter partner

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## SpArK

Not directly related to MRCA.. but an interesting development.



*Boeing EA-18G Growlers Deployed by US Navy​*


ST. LOUIS, Feb. 17, 2011 -- Boeing [NYSE: BA] today announced that *EA-18G Growler airborne electronic attack aircraft have been deployed for the first time by the U.S. Navy.*

"The men and women of Boeing are honored to see this new capability directly benefit the nations brave servicemembers around the world," said Kory Mathews, vice president of F/A-18 and EA-18 Programs for Boeing. *"The airborne electronic attack capability that the EA-18G brings to the fight is in high demand, so we are committed to continuing to deliver these aircraft to the Navy on budget and on schedule, just as we have with every F/A-18E/F."*

*The EA-18G is the only air combat platform that delivers full-spectrum airborne electronic attack (AEA) capability along with the targeting and self-defense capabilities derived from the Navy's frontline fighter, the F/A-18E/F Block II Super Hornet. A derivative of the two-seat F/A-18F Block II, the EA-18G's highly flexible design enables warfighters to operate either from the deck of an aircraft carrier or from land-based airfields. It is replacing the Navy's current AEA platform, the EA-6B Prowler, which has been in service since 1971*. The EA-18G joined the Navy's aircraft fleet in 2008, when it was introduced to fleet training squadron VAQ-129.

Boeing, acting as the weapon system integrator and prime contractor, leads the EA-18G Growler industry team, which also includes Northrop Grumman, Raytheon and General Electric Aircraft Engines.

Boeing EA-18G Growlers Deployed by US Navy - CombatAircraft.com

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## SpArK



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## sudhir007




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## sancho

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> You did not answer the question I posed earlier, if Spectra or Rafale is not transmitting how is it able to provide mid course updates to MICA?
> I have no trouble acknowledging that spectra is able to detect a emitter passively this is not unique to the Rafale - all MMRCA fighters have that ability.
> 
> Stationary surface emitters can be attacked using target coordinates provided by Spectra prior to AASM release - but aerial targets are highly mobile. How does Spectra send mid course updates without emitting? Unless the missile seeker acquires the target before launch (close range active BVR shot).
> 
> You claim EuroFighters RWR is active? the words Radar Warning *Receiver*(RWR) implies the RWR receives emissions therefore is PASSIVE.



Actually I did, it is using passive sensors, like the IRST, MICA IR seekers, SPECTRA interferometry and RW receivers..., SPECTRA uses infos from all sensors to detect, identify and geolocate radars. Here is an excerpt from an old (early 2000s) Aviation Week week article, of an *US journalist* that explains it quiet well, how Rafale engage passively in an A2A combat:



> Aviation Week & Space Technology
> Page 1 of 6
> Rafale To Offer Multirole Mission Capability
> DAVID M. NORTH/ISTRES, FRANCE
> 
> 
> ...Camus sees the Rafale using multiple sensors on a typical combat mission. The first task would be the compilation of all the intelligence data into the mission planning system to be shown in the aircraft's large center display. The next sequence would be for recent data link information from other aircraft or AWACS to be fed into the tactical display. Thomson is working on a data link system for the Rafale that is very similar to the Multifunction Information Distribution System (MIDS), and can either be used as a stand-alone system or used with NATO equipment.
> 
> *Still staying passive, the Rafale's Spectre Defensive Aid Sub-System (DASS) electronic system designed by Thomson and Matra would be able to pick up enemy radars in excess of 200 naut. mi. [imo that's a typo and he meant Km, but it doesn't really matter, because the performance is twice as good] and give location and identification.* The Spectre also offers laser and IR missile launch detector, as well as digital solid-state jammer.
> 
> *The next system likely to be used in a combat flight would be the Front Sector Optronics System, which features a wide angle IR sensor and a long-focal-length CCD camera. Both of these displays were shown to me in the simulator. The IR detection has the longer range and also identification capability. Once a target is picked up by the IR system, the camera is slaved along the same axis and the target is shown on the display. Identification of a target from the camera display is more accurate than IR, Camus said.*
> 
> At this point in an engagement, the pilot could then activate the radar to get a firing envelope for the Rafale's air-toair, medium-range Mica EM missiles...




That shows the difference behind the development of Rafales sensors and other fighters imo, they paid way more time and money in the development of SPECTRA (3 billion Euros) as well as alternative sensors, other than radar, to use all their infos to achieve better SA, including weapon guidance capabilities. 

Sorry, my fault mixed RWR with the active MAWs of EF. The RWR don't emit, but unlike SPECTRA, the DASS is neither fully passive, nor has interferometry sensors it can give a bearing, but not an accurate location to guide weapons. There is something rumored about enhanced capabilities in T3, for similar SEAD capabilities like Rafale already has, but just like many other things on the EF, nothing is cleared so far. 
Btw, MICA IR has lock after launch capability and can be updated via data link conncetion. Another one of these out of the box developments of the French! 

No matter if one like them or not, one has to admit that they have very creative solutions for such problems. When everybody tried to find a good compromise between A2A and A2G capabilities, they made a true multi role fighter. 
SPECTRA (although still very less about it is known) is way more than a simple self protection suit and combines defensive and offensive capabilities (not only detecting threats, but locate and guide weapons at them, let alone the AESA jamming features). 
MICA EM might not have the range of Aim 120, but is more maneuverable, MICA IR, might not have the same off boresight like Aim 9, but offers BVR ranges and a simultaneous attack with both types should be hard to counter.
Similar can be said about AASM, it is similar to JDAM, but combined with the rocket bosster, more a missile than a PGM and therefor offers higher ranges. The capability to fire it off axis makes it more versatile and it's already more precise with up to 1m CEP and vertical strike capabilities. 
They all have only one big problem, the costs are high, because of small numbers that will be produced! Really sad that Germany and Spain didn't join Rafale development instead of EF, would have been way better for them, as well as France.


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## sancho

sudhir007 said:


>


 

A good example to see where Saab is doing some tricks to let the specs look better than they really are!

Gripen C/D:

MTOW 14000 Kg - (minus) internal fuel 2400Kg - empty weight 6800Kg => *4800Kg* left for payload, not 5300Kg

The latest specsheet on their official website says:



> *GRIPEN DIMENSIONS*
> 
> Weights
> Empty weight 6.8 tonnes
> *Internal fuel >2.0 tonnes*
> Total load capacity 5.3 tonnes
> Max take-off weight 14.0 tonnes



http://www.saabgroup.com/Global/Doc...en/Gripen product sheet/Gripen_Dimensions.pdf


*So 5300Kg payload yes, but only with reduced internal fuel!*


Same can be said about Gripen NG:

MTOW 16500 Kg - (minus) internal fuel 3360Kg - empty weight 7100Kg => *6040Kg* left for payload, not 7200Kg like they claim now. 
*The higher payload is again only possible by reducing the internal fuel!*


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## jha

*HAL dismisses doubts about ability to work on advanced fighter programmes*

Bangalore: Senior officials at the Bangalore based Defence Public Sector Unit (DPSU) Hindustan Aeronautics Limited have dismissed reported concerns about its ability to handle advanced fighter programmes in partnership with American firms, citing its considerable experience with both the Russians and the British, on programmes like the Sukhoi-30 MKI and the Hawk 100 Advanced Jet Trainer (AJT).

The British newspaper The Financial Times (FT), reported on Friday that the US Ambassador to India, Timothy Roemer, in a confidential cable last year, had said that the potential for HAL to successfully partner with US firms on a truly advanced aircraft remains untested and suspect. The cable, leaked by WikiLeaks, was seen by FT, the paper said.

After a visit to HAL in February last year, the ambassador had described Indias aviation industry as two to three decades behind the United States and other Western nations, in the cable.

American firms Boeing and Lockheed Martin are among those vying for the estimated $11 billion deal to supply 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) for the Indian Air Force, offering the F-18 Super Hornet and F-16 Super Viper fighters respectively.

Competitors include a European consortiums Eurofighter Typhoon, the Russian Mig-35, the French Rafale from Dassault Aviation and the Swedish SAAB Gripen.

HALs N.C. Agarwal, director Design and Development at HALs design complex in Bangalore, said: If the Americans really thought in this fashion, it is self-contradictory to find them in the fray for the MMRCA deal. There need be no doubt about HALs ability to work with any partner. After all, the Sukhoi-30 licensed production programme (with the Russians) is for an aircraft as advanced or more in terms of its structure and aerodynamics, in comparison to the F-18 Hornet.

He acknowledged that India was indeed behind the US in pure technological terms. But there is a lot of advanced work going on here even in avionics and other sub-systems. The worlds companies are coming here because of the talent and the brain power. The systems in place are catching up, he said.

Ashok Baweja, former chairman of HAL, said: What are they (the Americans) talking about? HAL has been making advanced aircraft for decades, starting with the Americans themselves in 1942. HAL can do what is necessary to take on the MMRCA work, he said.

Another senior HAL official at Bangalore, who requested anonymity, said: These reported comments are quite surprising, considering the amount of work with the Americans that is in the pipeline. One need not read too much into it. There is also the fact that with so many vendors in the fray for the MMRCA, youll find each one trying to pull the other down with all kinds of leaks, he said.

The Ambassador, in his cable, had not ruled out cooperation but said that US companies need to approach partnerships carefully. He also cited problems in the production of the Hawk 100 with the British BAE Systems.

US firm General Electric is in partnership with the Aeronautical Development Agency to supply GE-404 engines for the LCA Tejas, and recently won a tender to supply more powerful GE-414 engines for the LCA Mk-II.

HAL dismisses doubts about ability to work on advanced fighter programmes - Economy and Politics - livemint.com


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## dbc

sancho said:


> Similar can be said about AASM, it is similar to JDAM, but combined with the rocket bosster, more a missile than a PGM and therefor offers higher ranges. The capability to fire it off axis makes it more versatile and it's already more precise with up to 1m CEP and vertical strike capabilities.
> They all have only one big problem, the costs are high, because of small numbers that will be produced! Really sad that Germany and Spain didn't join Rafale development instead of EF, would have been way better for them, as well as France.


 
The EuroFighter will use AGM-154, the AGM-154 D/E variants are rocket propelled similar to the French Sagem AASM's. The AGM-154 meets and in some cases exceeds the capabilities of the Sagem AASM's. 



> F-16, F-15E, F/A-18, B-2, B-52, P-3, F-35 (JSF), JAS 39 Gripen,
> Eurofighter 2000, Tornado
> 
> 
> http://www.raytheon.com/capabilitie...ups/public/documents/content/cms01_055754.pdf







sancho said:


> Actually I did, it is using passive sensors, like the IRST, MICA IR seekers, SPECTRA interferometry and RW receivers..., SPECTRA uses infos from all sensors to detect, identify and geolocate radars. Here is an excerpt from an old (early 2000s) Aviation Week week article, of an *US journalist* that explains it quiet well, how Rafale engage passively in an A2A combat:



Again I'm not disputing SPECTRA's ability to DETECT or LOCATE emitters, I am disputing your claim of *passive mid course guidance*, how does the Rafale transmit mid course guidance data to MICA or METEOR post launch while remaining at EMCON 1. 

Your exact words were .....



> Rafale is hard to detect too, because it has a low RCS and don't emits any signals. They guided their MICA missiles with SPECTRA EWS, after identifying the opponent with the TV channel of FSO, all completely passive without even the need to use the radar.
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/4347-mrca-news-discussions-281.html#post1490866



On paper, both EuroFighter and Rafale have similar capabilities in terms of ESM, passive attack and self defense with one exception - the towed decoy. Towed decoy is extremely effective against both radar and IR guided threats for SEAD/DEAD/CAS missions - towed decoy increase survivability by significantly reducing Pk,Ph and Pf. The Rafale successfully neutralized Soviet era SAM's at Nellis during RedFlag '08 but without towed decoy it is more vulnerable than the EuroFighter against more modern air defense threats.

Assuming SPECTRA works as advertised, I still don't see it as having a significant advantage over similar EuroFighter systems. BAE developed many of the targeting, self defense and data acquisition systems for the F-35 Lightening it isn't far fetched to assume that these systems may become available to EuroFighter customers in the future.


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## KEETARP

> [sancho wrote]
> Rafale is hard to detect too, because it has a low RCS and *don't* emits any signals



On the contrary it does 



> [ DBC wrote ]
> Again I'm not disputing SPECTRA's ability to DETECT or LOCATE emitters, I am disputing your claim of passive mid course guidance, how does the Rafale transmit mid course guidance data to MICA or METEOR post launch while remaining at EMCON 1.



He is shying away from replying , bcoz Rafale lacks this capabilty . 
And why I am not surprised at this ????

A Fighter can not provide Mid-course guidance to missile passively , it must transmit .
Only thing that can be managed is by - power management, frequency agility and tight beam control (with small sidelobes) 
, in a way transmitting as little as possible ( LPI mode i mean ) .

Harris Multifunction Advanced Data Link (MADL) on the F-35 + Joint Tactical Information Display System (JTIDS) on F22 , do come close to LPI datalink in theory. , 
But practically such low amount of data is transmitted in LPI mode , it beats the sole purpose of having advanced sensors such as APG77 with huge amount of imagery and mapping data . This is why F22 still function in Link16 grid receivers 

And certainly no such thing exists in Rafale ,  .

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## dbc

PRATEEK said:


> On the contrary it does
> 
> 
> 
> He is shying away from replying , bcoz Rafale lacks this capabilty .
> And why I am not surprised at this ????
> 
> A Fighter can not provide Mid-course guidance to missile passively , it must transmit .
> Only thing that can be managed is by - power management, frequency agility and tight beam control (with small sidelobes)
> , in a way transmitting as little as possible ( LPI mode i mean ) .
> 
> Harris Multifunction Advanced Data Link (MADL) on the F-35 + Joint Tactical Information Display System (JTIDS) on F22 , do come close to LPI datalink in theory. ,
> But practically such low amount of data is transmitted in LPI mode , it beats the sole purpose of having advanced sensors such as APG77 with huge amount of imagery and mapping data . This is why F22 still function in Link16 grid receivers
> 
> And certainly no such thing exists in Rafale ,  .


 
Welcome back Lieutenant PRATEEK  I hope you brought a cure for Rafalefanboitis

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## sancho

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> The EuroFighter will use AGM-154, the AGM-154 D/E variants are rocket propelled similar to the French Sagem AASM's. The AGM-154 meets and in some cases exceeds the capabilities of the Sagem AASM's.



Not really, stand off weapons for EF include only Storm Shadow and Taurus, whenever they will be integrated. The partner countries have these weapons already, mainly on their Tornados, besides AASM is more comparable to JDAM and JDAM ER.




Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Again I'm not disputing SPECTRA's ability to DETECT or LOCATE emitters, I am disputing your claim of *passive mid course guidance*, how does the Rafale transmit mid course guidance data to MICA or METEOR post launch while remaining at EMCON 1.




Already answered, via data link for example:



> All MICA firing stations are fully BVR, operating MICA in both versions IR or RF *with or without data link target updating*.



Mica, mica missile, air to air missile, air missile system - MBDA




Death.By.Chocolate said:


> On paper, both EuroFighter and Rafale have similar capabilities in terms of ESM, passive attack and self defense with one exception - the towed decoy. Towed decoy is extremely effective against both radar and IR guided threats for SEAD/DEAD/CAS missions - towed decoy increase survivability by significantly reducing Pk,Ph and Pf. The Rafale successfully neutralized Soviet era SAM's at Nellis during RedFlag '08 but without towed decoy it is more vulnerable than the EuroFighter against more modern air defense threats.



Starting your speculations again? Rafale also impressed at NATO MACE exercise with SPECTRA and it capabilities in SEAD, just like during ATLC. 
TD btw was considered for Rafale before, but the high performance of SPECTRAs AESA jaming and the reduced performance with TD extended were not worth it for Dassault. 

Also just as you said, on paper the capabilities looks similar, but in reality they aren't because EF has no offensive weapon guidance capabilities via EWS, only detection and self defense. Or better, EF has no SEAD capability at all!




Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Assuming SPECTRA works as advertised, I still don't see it as having a significant advantage over similar EuroFighter systems. BAE developed many of the targeting, self defense and data acquisition systems for the F-35 Lightening it isn't far fetched to assume that these systems may become available to EuroFighter customers in the future.



We can assume many things, Dassault is working on active cancellation, stealthy weapon pods, LIDAR, 360° AESA radar detection and so on, but you don't see me claiming these things right?
As long as the EF partners didn't take a decision about T3A anything is just speculation. Bottom line is, so far and with all techs and capabilities cleared for EF, the Rafale is clearly superior in terms of tech level, weapon integration and upgrade stage and will most likely maintain this edge.


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## sancho

PRATEEK said:


> On the contrary it does
> 
> 
> 
> He is shying away from replying , bcoz Rafale lacks this capabilty .
> And why I am not surprised at this ????
> 
> A Fighter can not provide Mid-course guidance to missile passively , it must transmit .




Hi Prateek, heared you are at Indian defense now. In passive mode, IRST, MICA seekers, SPECTRA, DDM, and data link what is emiting?

In addition to what the MBDA site said about MICA...:



> On the weapons side, the F2/05 Rafale will carry the IR version of the MBDA MICA air-to-air missile. The Rafale is unique in being designed around a single missile, MICA, which has been developed in active-radar and IR versions. *Both versions feature a data-link to provide mid-course guidance* (like AMRAAM) and vectored thrust for short-range agility. Unlike other IR missiles, therefore, MICA can be launched before the seeker locks, on *and can perform a completely silent beyond-visual-range attack.*



Rafale, Dassault-Breguet


 Have a nice weekend ladies and gents!


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## the rafter

*Aero India: Indian Air Force May Be Nearing a Decision on Fighter: AINonline*
February 18, 2011






India could benefit from the enhanced F/A-18 E/F Hornet, according to sources at the Aero India show.

A decision in the long-running Indian medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) competition could come as early as September, according to Air Chief Marshall Pradeep Naik, an Indian air force commander. Naik told the press at the Aero India show in Bangalore that the price bids would soon be unsealed so that contract negotiations for the 120-aircraft order could start. But there were other suggestions, from sources including the Indian defense minister, that the choice would not come until next year.
India recently revised its offset criteria, which has already delayed the MMRCA selection process, and caused the manufacturers of the contenders to beef up their industrial co-operation offers. Contenders are the Boeing F/A-18E/F, Dassault Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon, Lockheed Martin F-16, MiG-35 and Saab Gripen. No down-select from these six has been announced. According to news reports, Naik said all six vendors "meet 95 percent of the requirements."
In a briefing at the show, Boeing noted that India could benefit from the proposed enhancements to the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet that were first revealed at the Farnborough Airshow last July. Eurofighter showed a model of the Typhoon for the Navy, which features thrust-vector control and conformal fuel tanks, that it said could fly from India&#960;s ski-jump carrier.


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## dbc

sancho said:


> Also just as you said, on paper the capabilities looks similar, but in reality they aren't because EF has no offensive weapon guidance capabilities via EWS, only detection and self defense. *Or better, EF has no SEAD capability at all!*



Electroptic sensors have been in production since the early 60's. You may want to read up on TV-Martel, Martel AJ-168 was manually controlled from the launch aircraft via TV imagery and data link while the Martel AS-37 relied on passive radar homing. 

Your suggestion that the EuroFighter lacks the ability to passively cue A2A or A2G munitions is incredulous, even more so when you consider the technology was pioneered by a British firm in the 60's. The simple fact is that the EuroFighter armed with AGM-65 Maverick a 70's missile which supports a variety of electrooptical sensors gives the EuroFighter passive attack capability. In addition, PIRATE and DAS both have the ability to cue ground/air targets so I don't really understand why you continue to claim that the Rafale has unique passive attack capability?









> A state-of-the-art implementation of IRSTS is the passive infrared airborne tracking equipment (PIRATE) developed by the EUROFIRST consortium which will be &#64257;tted to the Euro&#64257;ghter Typhoon. Figure 5.20 shows the PIRATE unit and the installation on Typhoon of the left side of the fuselage. The equipment uses dual-band sensing operating
> in the 35 and 811 mm bands. The MWIR sensor offers greater sensitivity against hot targets such as jet engine ef&#64258;ux, while the LWIR sensor is suited to lower temperatures associated with frontal engagements. The unit uses linear 760  10 arrays with scan motors
> driving optics such that large volumes of sky may be rapidly scanned.
> 
> *The &#64257;eld of regard (FOR) is stated to be almost hemispherical in coverage*. The detection range is believed to be 40 nm
> 
> The operational modes of PIRATE are:
> 1. Air-to-air:
>  Multiple-target tracking (MTT) over a hemispherical FOR  the ability to track in excess of 200 individual targets, with a tracking accuracy better than 0.25 mrad;
>  Single-target track (STT) mode for individual targets for missile cueing and launch;
>  Single-target track and identi&#64257;cation (STTI) for target identi&#64257;cation prior to launch, providing a high-resolution image and a back-up to identi&#64257;cation friend or foe (IFF).
> 2. Air-to-ground:
>  *Ability to cue ground targets from C3 data*;
>  Landing aid in poor weather;
>  Navigation aid in FLIR mode, allowing low-level penetration.
> 
> http://www.helitavia.com/books/Mil Av Sys/Wiley - Military Avionics Systems.pdf






sancho said:


> Not really, stand off weapons for EF include only Storm Shadow and Taurus.



JSOW is part of EuroFighter's weapons suite, the image above and the Raytheon brochure confirms AIM-154 JSOW can be launched by the EuroFighter.

http://www.raytheon.com/capabilitie...ups/public/documents/content/cms01_055754.pdf


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## GORKHALI

MILITARY AVIATION AND SPACE TECHNOLOGY NEWS: Raytheon reveals first glimpse of next-generation missile


Raytheon reveals first glimpse of next-generation missile 
SOURCE ADMIN 
Raytheon has offered the first peek into the company's approach to designing a next generation missile to replace both the AIM-120 AMRAAM and AGM-88 HARM.

For the first time, the company has displayed a full-scale mock-up of one of several candidates being considered for the emerging US Air Force requirement for a dual role air dominance missile (DRADM). 

The design shown at the Air Warfare Sympsoium on 16-17 February features an AMRAAM-like missile body integrated with what appears to be a variable flow ducted rocket (VFDR), or ramjet.


In 2004, Raytheon commissioned Aerojet to demonstrate a VFDR propulsion system on an AMRAAM for a contract sponsored by the Air Force Research Laboratory. Raytheon acknowledges the influence of the VFDR demonstration.

"This model incorporates lessons learned from VFDR," Raytheon says. "However, the requirements haven't been established yet, so the model you see is one of several possibilities in consideration."

Raytheon and Boeing received separate contracts from the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) late last year to work on a next generation missile. The triple target terminator (T3) programme is aimed at hitting three types of targets - aircraft, cruise missiles and ground-based radars.










For two years, Boeing has displayed a conventional, solid rocket-powered missile at major trade shows as its *DRADM* concept._ The 18cm (7in)-diameter mock-up for a next generation missile also was shown at Boeing's booth in the exhibit hall. _

In addition to the DARPA work, Boeing also is known to have received three contracts from AFRL to develop three key technologies for a next-generation air dominance missile.








These include adaptable warheads that increase the lethal distance of the weapon, sensors that also serve as fuses for the warhead and reaction jet controls that allow the missile to intercept targets behind the launching platform.

The USAF had previously intended to launch full development of DRADM in Fiscal 2014, but the Pentagon's latest budget request may allow the service to accelerate contract award to 2013.

Speaking to the symposium audience on 16 February, Gen William Fraser, head of Air Combat Command, noted that the appearance of China's Chengdu J-20 underscores the need for key modernization programmes, including a next generation missile.


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## sancho

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> I don't really understand why you continue to claim that the Rafale has unique passive attack capability?



Simply because you don't want to, otherwise you would ask the same questions that you asked for Rafale and SPECTRA, for EF and DASS as well! 
For example how can DASS locate the target accurately and provide weapon guidance? That's the point it can't, you just assume and speculate (like in most of your posts), because as you said before, on paper the capabilities looks similar.
Same for PIRATE and A2G weapon cueing, but not based on DASS data, because DASS can only detect and classify, but not geolocate the targets like SPECTRA can:



> *Passive detection*
> 
> An alternative method is to use an on-board passive system for detection. The PIRATE, or Passive Infra Red Airborne Tracking Equipment is a 2nd generation Imaging Infra Red (IIR) system and performs this duty of passive detection. PIRATE is constructed by the EuroFirst consortium led by Pilkington-Thorn Optronics (now Thales Optronics)...
> 
> ...In Slave Acquisition the use of *off-board sensors* is made with PIRATE being *commanded by data obtained from an AWACS for example.*



Not to forget the most important point is still, EF lacks the weapons to do so! 
Btw, it doesn't matter what weapons were on offer, or planned for EF at the begining of the development, only what weapons are, or will be integrated. Those pics and links that you post to distract doesn't mean anything, because 90% of those weapons, or even pods are and will not be available, especially not the US weapons! The only US weapon that is intended to be integrated in future is JDAM, because the partner countries opted for that weapons, but neither JSOW, nor Maverick will will be, which just once again shows how pointless your speculations are. 

Bottom line is: 

- Rafale can cue weapons in A2A and A2G guided by SPECTRA, EF can't do it
- combined with MICA, AASM, FSO and data links it gives advantages in BVR and SEAD
- in passive mode (IRST, SPECTRA, data links) it don't emit signals, which makes it harder to detect
- SPECTRA AESA jamming has proven itself and impressed in several exercises, to be very effective against anykind of ground threat, which makes Towed Decoy not needed
- Rafale is already a true multi role fighter, unlike EF, which is meant for air superiority and hardly has CAS qualities so far
- Rafale is more useful for multi roles than EF, especially for deep penetration strikes, because it has less limitations by design, or development flaws (no dedicated LDP station, with the LDP on the centerline station, no 2000lb PGM can be used unless CFTs will be developed, or it gets external guidance, only 3 heavy/wet stations, which limits the carriage of weapons and fuel)


EF remains to be an excellent A2A fighter, but with the same capabilities and for the same role that MKI and FGFA are meant for. Rafale instead, is more versatile and offers additional capabilities, that complements them, not compete with them. Add the other operational advantages and there should be no doubt which fighter should be prefered by Indian forces.


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## sancho

SpArK said:


> Just an offtopic question. Have u come across in any forums or anywhere else , any article regarding the Dakshin prahar exercise happened in my city along the dates of Aero India.. I havent found anything on it which is worthy of reading...


 
Sorry buddy, missed you post yesterday. No didn't heared of it, TVM is mainly army based right? I just was surprised that the PM meet Brahmos officials in that time:

Indian Defense News: Manmohan commends BrahMos team


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## Water Car Engineer

> Mr Andrew Gallagher, CEO-MD of BAE Systems India, says India should avoid American and buy the Eurofighter Typhoon to reap both capability and strategic benefits. Excerpts from an interview.
> The Typhoon is the youngest aircraft in the MMRCA competition. The flip side is that its still a work-in-progress
> If you buy an F-16, you know what you are getting  a 1970s product. If you go for the Typhoon, its been in service for six years with the Eurofighter air forces, you are getting the best platform available today, and the opportunity to upgrade it.
> What do we gain in politico-strategic terms from buying European?
> The Typhoon purchase will promote a couple of things. One, Indias stated ambition to develop an indigenous defence capability, in particular in this area because the Eurofighter consortium, with the full support of the governments of Germany, UK, Italy and Spain, will deliver the technology transfer commitments and the know-how, not just the source code and the paperwork. We wont find ourselves caught up in a bureaucratic nightmare, which perhaps will happen in the case of another country, in terms of the ability to transfer technology, which will allow India a degree of sovereignty which it would not otherwise have.
> With the US, you are still in CISMOA discussions, and other technology cooperation discussions that are yet to be resolved. Moreover, India has already bought the P-8I, the C-130J, its buying the C-17, how many more deals do the Americans want? The law of diminishing returns begins to kick in somewhere. For us, India will be buying 126 Typhoons. Money talks. India will be a key partner going forward and it will develop the aircraft according to its own needs.
> Eurofighter nations build military capability in the belief that they will go to war only in coalitions, not alone. Is there a conceptual issue here with regard to the Typhoon, because India has to fight its wars alone?
> What we will do is to provide India the capability to develop the aircraft to its own requirements. So, if that means that India thinks it is going to go to war on its own with its neighbours or other nations, under our obligations in the deal, we will work with India to develop the aircraft in the way that it needs. And we will also ensure that if theres any degree of interdependence, India will have access to the support and capability that it needs to ensure its legitimate national security interests, whatever they are.
> Is there US technology in the Typhoon, and will it be difficult getting unrestricted access to it?
> Its not impossible on occasion. But, in principle, if India buys the Typhoon, the relationship with India is such that whilst there may be a problem from time to time, any technology transfer which requires US approvals will come through.
> I mean, BAE Systems has 45,000 employees in America, we are the fifth biggest supplier to the Pentagon. So, the US absolutely knows where its interest lies, and I have no doubt whatsoever, provided we behave responsibly, the US will step up and do the right thing.



With Typhoon, India gets tech, freedom to act | Deccan Chronicle | 2011-02-20

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## The HBS Guy

Yes. First buy something, then we'll talk.

MoD and its procedures!


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## angeldemon_007

> Eurofighter nations build military capability in the belief that they will go to war only in coalitions, not alone. Is there a conceptual issue here with regard to the Typhoon, because India has to fight its wars alone?


Many things came to my mind after reading this question and before reading the answer. 



> Is there US technology in the Typhoon, and will it be difficult getting unrestricted access to it?
> Its not impossible on occasion. But, in principle, if India buys the Typhoon, the relationship with India is such that whilst there may be a problem from time to time, any technology transfer which requires US approvals will come through.
> I mean, BAE Systems has 45,000 employees in America, we are the fifth biggest supplier to the Pentagon. So, the US absolutely knows where its interest lies, and I have no doubt whatsoever, provided we behave responsibly, the US will step up and do the right thing.


This is alarming...

I vote Rafale first, typhoon second. Lets see what happens...


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## the rafter

*The Big Deal nears the finish | Deccan Chronicle | 2011-02-20*

Asked about China&#8217;s latest wonder, a stealth fighter called the J-20 that the US alleges was built by &#8216;stealth&#8217; practices, Air Chief P.V. Naik shot back recently, &#8220;Is reverse engineering ethical or is it an illegitimate entry through the backdoor?&#8221;
It was an unusual outburst of helplessness for a military man who, more than anyone else, knows well that it does not matter how a country obtains its military capability, but only that it possesses it. As Deng Xiaoping once said, &#8220;It does not matter whether the cat is white or black so long as it catches mice&#8221;.
Air Chief Naik&#8217;s frustration was perhaps more at the fact that India is still some way from getting a fully capable Tejas LCA, let alone dream of a fifth-gen fighter. Perhaps the one area in which the Indian military still enjoys a lead over the Chinese military &#8212; air combat &#8212; is in danger of slipping, unless India acts quickly to refurbish its capability.
China, after all, is pouring billions into acquiring modern air superiority and multi-role fighters such as the Su-27 variants and the Su-30 MKK from Russia, building its own J-10 and JF-17 fighters in the hundreds and, worst of all, arming Pakistan too with them. Pakistan is beefing up its own F-16 fleet with new aircraft and, for the first time, American beyond visual range (BVR) missiles &#8212; the benefits of running with the hares and hunting with the hounds in the war on terror.
Meanwhile, suffering from collective obsolescence and a great many MiG aircraft crashes, the IAF&#8217;s strength is depleting. In the wake of the 1962 humiliation at China&#8217;s hands, it was estimated that the IAF would need to have 64 fighter squadrons. By the 1990s, though, squadron strength had peaked at about 42 and had begun to fall. Today, the IAF is left with anywhere between 29 to 34 squadrons, against a sanctioned 39.5. The IAF desperately wants to touch 45 squadrons by 2020.
The importance of the 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) &#8212; which, per the armed forces&#8217; Long Term Integrated Perspective Plan will go up all the way up to 260 fighters &#8212; cannot be overstated.
It's a big deal &#8212; in fact, the biggest defence import deal for India so far, and the biggest contract up for grabs for the world&#8217;s military equipment giants. It&#8217;s also the most complicated military buy decision that the IAF and the political leadership face. For starters, just the technical and field evaluations had over 600 test points for each aircraft. Yet, if a decision is not made in the next few months, it could be a very big disaster for the IAF&#8217;s short to medium-term warfare capability.
To be sure, the MMRCA procurement process has reached an advanced stage. The IAF has given the ministry of defence its report on the technical and field trials of the six aircraft in contention, reportedly without picking a favourite or even a shortlist &#8212; Lockheed Martin&#8217;s F-16IN, Boeing&#8217;s F/A-18 E/F, the Eurofighter (UK-Germany-Italy-Spain) Typhoon, the French Dassault Rafale, the Swedish Gripen IN and the Russian MiG-35 are vying for the contract &#8212; leaving that task to the MoD bureaucracy.
An MoD Technical Oversight Committee is currently looking at the &#8216;offset&#8217;proposals &#8212; a requirement that the winning contractor source a certain amount of the value of each aircraft that India buys from Indian industry &#8212; submitted by the contenders for the deal. Simultaneously, their proposals for transfer of technology, critical for the rapid development of an Indian capability to build advanced fighters, are also being examined.
At the end of this process &#8212; expected to end in a week or two &#8212; the TOC will &#8216;down-select&#8217; a few companies to go to the next stage of the bidding process. The price bids of the short-listed companies will then be opened in front of the bidders. The lowest price bidder, designated L1, will be called by a Contract Negotiation Committee to finalise the terms of the deal. Once that&#8217;s done, the defence minister, then the finance minister and finally the Cabinet committee on security will have to sign off on the contract.
At the recent Aero India show, ACM Naik said this will be done by September, but MoD officials have told this newspaper it will happen no sooner than the end of the year or early next year, if all goes well. That caveat is important.
Corruption has always been the big bugbear, but the MMRCA process has, so far, been admirably unaffected. The IAF and the MoD have, in fact, gone out of the way to ensure that the process is clean and transparent.
Trouble, however, could come from elsewhere. For one, as the air chief himself said, a losing contender could put a spoke in the wheel &#8212; such corporate sniping has forced the MoD to re-tender or even cancel procurements in the past. Or, the finance ministry could well play spoilsport, as it did with the refueling tanker deal recently.
No matter who puts the spoke in the wheel, ultimately it is the country&#8217;s security that will be put at risk unless the IAF can begin to induct the aircraft by 2015-2016. Beyond that date, the MMRCA will either have to be scrapped or the aircraft will become a costly, even unnecessary, acquisition.
Nonetheless, it&#8217;s not an easy decision to make. For starters, should India buy an aircraft to meet merely IAF's capability requirements or, when it is spending over $10 billion &#8212; potentially $25 billion &#8212; should its choice be based on obtaining critical technology and strategic benefits? Even if only the IAF's capability requirements were kept in mind, should it go for a &#8216;combat-proven&#8217; fighter essentially of 1970s/80s design (f-16), but whose development potential is at an end? Or, should it go for the newest, albeit relatively unproven, fighter that has &#8216;potential&#8217; for improvement for the next 40 years (Typhoon, Rafale)?
Should the IAF insist on a fighter that has a working active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar today (F-16, F/A-18) or should it take the risk of choosing one for which an AESA radar is still under development?
Should the IAF simply go for the cheapest aircraft, while keeping its resources for a future acquisition of a so-called 5th-gen fighter, the F-35? Should it scrap the MMRCA, forget the F-35 and simply buy more of the most capable fighter it already has &#8212; the Sukhoi-30 MKI? Or should it buy the most expensive, but also apparently the most capable aircraft in the race &#8212; the Typhoon &#8212; to hedge against a possible failure of its own future aircraft project?
And what should India&#8217;s political leadership look to gain from such a big contract?
In March 2005, America declared its intention to &#8220;facilitate India&#8217;s defence transformation&#8221; by not only selling fighters but also &#8220;transformative systems&#8221; that would &#8220;help India become a major world power in the 21st Century&#8221;. Should India take the promise at face value and buy an American fighter, to possibly build an alliance against China?
Or, should India buy the Eurofighter Typhoon, and give the European defence industry a fillip in an attempt to preserve our preferred multi-polar world order? Should we buy the French Rafale because France, like India, likes to keep its independent flag flying and is ready to give us &#8220;100 per cent&#8221; technology?
In the end, it is very likely that even within the tight two-stage bidding process, India&#8217;s bureaucracy and political leadership will find creative ways to ensure that political and strategic considerations and India&#8217;s need for technology decide the final choice of aircraft.

*F/A-18E/F Super Hornet
Company: Boeing*
* Proven aircraft with potential for future development. Meets AESA radar requirement.
* *India has chosen the GE F-414 engine for Tejas Mk 2. F-18 will mean a common engine for the two aircraft, a maintenance and support advantage*.
* *Is expected to come in at less than $70 million a unit.*
* Excellent, but all-American weapons package.

*RAFALE
Company: Dassault*
* The darkhorse in the race is now apparently among the top choices.
* *Comparable to the Eurofighter in most respects, and better than the F-18 in many.*
* *French air force has recently cleared the AESA radar to go on the fighter.*
* *French President Nicolas Sarkozy has apparently promised 100 per cent technology transfer.*

*Eurofighter Typhoon
Company: Eurofighter GmbH*
* *Apparently the most capable aircraft in the competition on a number of parameters.*
* *The &#8216;youngest&#8217; aircraft in the competition, with potential for future development.*
* Does not have a working AESA radar on the aircraft as on today. But one is under development.
* *Biggest attraction: Eurofighter countries demand no agreements; won&#8217;t impinge on Indian sovereignty.*

*F-16IN Super Viper
Company: Lockheed Martin*
* Perhaps the most-proven and combat-optimised fighter among the contenders, it has AESA radar, a key IAF requirement.
* Is expected to come at $60 million a unit.
* Has been offered with removable Conformal Fuel Tanks. Among the most manouvreable air-to-air fighters without CFT.
* Excellent, but has an all-American weapons.



> *No mention of Gripen and MIG-35, is it intentional or accidental?*

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## MST

Gripen NG will not be ready in time for the MMRCA. So I won't be surprised if its not shortlisted.


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## dbc

sancho said:


> The only US weapon that is intended to be integrated in future is JDAM, because the partner countries opted for that weapons, *but neither JSOW, nor Maverick will will be, which just once again shows how pointless your speculations are.*



Speculation!? Did you miss the large image in my previous post clearly showing both Maverick and JSOW - the second and fourth weapon from the left? *That and the below image is taken from page 4 of the EuroFighter brochure under the words "One Aircraft,Any Mission"*. 

*You better call the EuroFighter consortia and accuse them of "speculating" too!*


http://www.eurofighter.com/fileadmin/web_data/downloads/misc/WFOEnglishWEB.pdf










sancho said:


> - in passive mode (IRST, SPECTRA, data links) *it don't emit signals*, which makes it harder to detect



 for heavens sake unless the Rafale has a very...very...very...veeeeeeery long cable for data linking the aircraft with the missile it just launched it is impossible to data link and transmit mid course guidance without emitting signals. Its like saying you can make and receive phone calls from a cell phone without transmitting.

The rest of your post is more useless Rafale propaganda, the EuroFighter Typhoon can do anything the Rafale can do period (except land on a boat) .

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## sancho

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Speculation!? Did you miss the large image in my previous post clearly showing both Maverick and JSOW - the second and fourth weapon from the left? That and the below image is taken from page 4 of the EuroFighter brochure under the words "One Aircraft,Any Mission".



Just need to quote the part of my post that you left out:



> Btw, *it doesn't matter what weapons were on offer, or planned for EF at the begining of the development, only what weapons are, or will be integrated.* Those pics and links that you post to distract doesn't mean anything, because 90% of those weapons, or even pods are and will not be available, especially not the US weapons!



Here are the weapons for EF (except of AASM), that were shown during Aero India, again 90% of them not available yet, but look at how many of them are US origin! Where are your JSOW, or Maverick?:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/79898-aero-india-2011-a-46.html#post1490547




Death.By.Chocolate said:


> The rest of your post is more useless Rafale propaganda, the EuroFighter Typhoon can do anything the Rafale can do period (except land on a boat) .



Or you are simply unable to counter facts and the truth, with your speculations, wouldn't be the first time!

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## sancho

angeldemon_007 said:


> Many things came to my mind after reading this question and before reading the answer.


 
Really and interesting and good question of the author!




Liquid said:


> With Typhoon, India gets tech, freedom to act | Deccan Chronicle | 2011-02-20





the rafter said:


> *The Big Deal nears the finish | Deccan Chronicle | 2011-02-20*




Interesting articles , thx for sharing guys!


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## SpArK




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## dbc

sancho said:


> Here are the weapons for EF (except of AASM), that were shown during Aero India, again 90% of them not available yet, but look at how many of them are US origin! Where are your JSOW, or Maverick?:
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/79898-aero-india-2011-a-46.html#post1490547



So what if it wasn't shown at Aero India? The F-22 wasn't shown at Aero India either - does that mean the Raptor does not exist?
Both Raytheon and EuroFighter brochure show JSOW and Maverick as available weapons for the EuroFighter, stop spreading lies about the EuroFighter. 

Please don't forget to tell us how Rafale data links without transmitting.


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## SpArK

sancho said:


> Sorry buddy, missed you post yesterday. No didn't heared of it, TVM is mainly army based right? I just was surprised that the PM meet Brahmos officials in that time:
> 
> Indian Defense News: Manmohan commends BrahMos team


 
Nope few jaguars and Su-30 mki's participated in that one...


http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/92262-dakshin-prahar-begins-monday-trivandrum-kerala.html


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## SpArK

SpArK said:


> *The MMRCA Pecking Order Poll​*
> Go to the site and vote​
> 
> By shiv aroor
> 
> 
> In the next three weeks, the Indian medium multirole combat aircraft (MMRCA) competition will move into a decisive phase -- price negotiations.
> 
> ything that's been reported over the last 10 days.
> 
> Vote below:LINK


 
*Could This Be The MMRCA Ranking? ​*

By Shiv Aroor





These are the poll results of yet another super-unempirical, unscientific poll that I put up here a few days ago. 

*Among the six options was one that reflected in precise terms a ranking that was conveyed to select journalists at Aero India by Indian Air Force officers, who of course asked not be named. *

*They claimed that this one ranking was the one that concluded the field evaluation trial report submitted to the MoD. With the surfeit of hearsay we've had so far, I've decided not to explicitly put out that ranking until it's official or can be attributed to someone in the IAF/government. 
*

Obviously, the options above may not be real at all until we know something for sure. That said, the poll I conducted had no real intention. All I really wanted to do is put that unofficial ranking out there, without putting it out there. Obviously, if I tell you guys how well/badly you polled, that would be giving it away. Either way, it won't be long before we know something substantial. So let's wait.


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## SpArK

*With Typhoon, India gets tech, freedom to act*​
Mr Andrew Gallagher, CEO-MD of BAE Systems India, says India should avoid American and buy the Eurofighter Typhoon to reap both capability and strategic benefits. Excerpts from an interview.

The Typhoon is the &#8216;youngest&#8217; aircraft in the MMRCA competition. The flip side is that it&#8217;s still a work-in-progress&#8230;

*If you buy an F-16, you know what you are getting &#8212; a 1970&#8217;s product.*  If you go for the Typhoon, it&#8217;s been in service for six years with the Eurofighter air forces, you are getting the best platform available today, and the opportunity to upgrade it.

What do we gain in politico-strategic terms from buying European?

The Typhoon purchase will promote a couple of things. One, India&#8217;s stated ambition to develop an indigenous defence capability, in particular in this area because the Eurofighter consortium, with the full support of the governments of Germany, UK, Italy and Spain, will deliver the technology transfer commitments and the know-how, not just the source code and the paperwork. 

We won&#8217;t find ourselves caught up in a bureaucratic nightmare, which perhaps will happen in the case of another country, in terms of the ability to transfer technology, which will allow India a degree of sovereignty which it would not otherwise have.


*With the US, you are still in CISMOA discussions, and other technology cooperation discussions that are yet to be resolved. Moreover, India has already bought the P-8I, the C-130J, it&#8217;s buying the C-17, how many more deals do the Americans want? The law of diminishing returns begins to kick in somewhere. For us, India will be buying 126 Typhoons. Money talks. India will be a key partner going forward and it will develop the aircraft according to its own needs.*


Eurofighter nations build military capability in the belief that they will go to war only in coalitions, not alone. Is there a conceptual issue here with regard to the Typhoon, because India has to fight its wars alone?

What we will do is to provide India the capability to develop the aircraft to its own requirements. So, if that means that India thinks it is going to go to war on its own with its neighbours or other nations, under our obligations in the deal, we will work with India to develop the aircraft in the way that it needs. And we will also ensure that if there&#8217;s any degree of interdependence, India will have access to the support and capability that it needs to ensure its legitimate national security interests, whatever they are.

Is there US technology in the Typhoon, and will it be difficult getting unrestricted access to it?

It&#8217;s not impossible on occasion. But, in principle, if India buys the Typhoon, the relationship with India is such that whilst there may be a problem from time to time, any technology transfer which requires US approvals will come through.

I mean, BAE Systems has 45,000 employees in America, we are the fifth biggest supplier to the Pentagon. So, the US absolutely knows where its interest lies, and I have no doubt whatsoever, provided we behave responsibly, the US will step up and do the right thing.

With Typhoon, India gets tech, freedom to act | Deccan Chronicle | 2011-02-20

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## KEETARP

sancho said:


> In passive mode, IRST, MICA seekers, SPECTRA, DDM, and *data link* what is emiting?



Data link of course , why did i mention F22 IFDL ,link22 in first place .

I don't think France has any intra flight data link apart from MIDS/Link16. 
And one thing for sure MIDS is neither Passive/silent and nor it works in LPI mode . 

Rafale updating a MICA via data link can easily be intercepted by the loop-hole in datalink . Until and unless France has developed some space tech to communicate and update missile without emitting .

I remember i had same discussion about SIGNIT , ELNIT , EMCON , CRYPTOANALYSIS in Exercise Garuda thread with Anathema viz MKI Vs F18


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## Agnostic_Indian

Is there US technology in the Typhoon ?


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## GareebNawaz

^^^ I hope SuperHornet and Typhoon win..


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## Veritas

I really want to India save some money, and Gripen is the choice. Single engine implies lower maintenance costs. India is not going to fight a war anytime soon... too much boogie man antics and tactics.

No one can afford war right now, so just get some cheap and best stuff.. I would really like a F-35 but that thing is too damn expensive.


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## GareebNawaz

Gripen..a totally useless aircraft for india


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## the rafter

*Eurofighter Typhoon: ultimate air power on display at IDEX 2011 in Abu Dhabi - Zawya*

Eurofighter Typhoon will participate in the 10th edition of the International Defence Exhibition and Conference (IDEX) 2011, the largest defence and security event in the Middle East and North African region which takes place from Sunday 20th to Thursday 24th February, at the Abu Dhabi National Exhibition Centre (ADNEC), in the United Arab Emirates.
Held under the patronage of His Highness Sheikh Khalifa Bin Zayed Al Nahyan, President of the UAE and Supreme Commander of the UAE Armed Forces, IDEX 2011 is a perfect showcase for the Typhoon, the most advanced multi-role combat aircraft available on the market today.

Eurofighter will display a selection from the full range of capabilities of the Typhoon at the show, including:

*The Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar that offers an optimised array with the addition of an innovative re-positioner to broaden the field of regard to +/- 1000, some 50% wider than traditional fixed plate AESA radar systems on offer with other fighters.

The most advanced Helmet Mounted Symbology System (HMSS) that forms a key component of Eurofighter Typhoon's weapon system, improving tactical performance for Eurofighter pilots by providing essential flight and weapon aiming information through line of sight imagery.

The Meteor missile, considered the "game changer" in terms of kill probablity thanks to its dynamic performances, speed and range.

The Thrust Vectoring Nozzle for the Eurojet EJ200 engines.
*
The technological development of the Typhoon opens the door to industrial collaborations between local industry and Eurofighter's partner companies. The programme offers the opportunity to develop a partnership with the biggest and most advanced European high-tech aerospace companies within the growing technology and industrial base of the Gulf region.

Already in service with the Royal Saudi Air Force, the Typhoon is considered the perfect "desert eagle". The aircraft already demonstrates its full capabilities in the hot and humid climate of the Gulf region. Thanks to its exceptional thrust-to-weight ratio, the Typhoon suffers less than other fighters in challenging environments and is able to fully exploit its payload capability and range performances.

Totally interoperable with current and predicted Gulf and allied Air Forces assets, the Typhoon is the ideal coalition fighter to offer deterrence to the Gulf States today and in the future.

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## the rafter

*Why India should decide on a fighter plane soon - Rediff.com India News*

With India [ Images ] set to augment its ageing fleet of aircraft, Aziz Haniffa looks at a report that makes a strong case for Indians to go for the American offerings, even if it means that both India and Pakistan could use the same aircraft. 

A report by the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace has reinforced the Barack Obama [ Images ] administration's campaign to lobby the Indian government to award the $11 billion contract for 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft to US manufacturers.

The 142-page report titled 'Dogfight! India's Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft Competition,' authored by Mumbai-born Ashley Tellis, presents a detailed evaluation of the technical and strategic advantages of each competitor in the context of South Asia's changing patterns of air warfare, China and Pakistan's airpower modernisation, and force structure transformations in the Indian Air Force.

Tellis, a senior associate with the Carnegie Endowment, who served in the George Bush [ Images ] administration, both in the State Department and National Security Council, told rediff.com that he strongly believed "it is appropriate that the Obama administration champion the two US fighters (Boeing's F-18 and Lockheed Martin's F-16s) in the competition just as it is appropriate for the Indian government to take political factors into account when making its final decision."

However, he argued that his report showed that "there are strong technical, cost and programmatic reasons for India to favour US aircraft, even if political considerations are discounted."

Tellis said, "When one looks at the sum total of capabilities-sensors and avionics, weapons, situational awareness, and manoeuvrability-the US contenders, on balance, are better than their European counterparts."

"When one factors in costs, the US contenders come our substantially ahead," he noted, and added, "If growth potential is taken into account, the F-18E/F Super Hornet becomes a fantastic choice-and is just as attractive as any of its European counterparts."

Tellis said that the US "has major stakes in this outcome because for the last 10 years we have struggled to make the case for a strong US-India defence partnership and during the Bush administration the decision was made to offer, in a sense, the best plans that we could muster and that were relevant to the medium-role aircraft that India is looking to buy. So, we have a stake that this come out in a particular way," both for financial and political reasons, he said.

Exploring the regional context of the acquisition, Tellis said that India's air force squadrons have been steadily dissipating and argued that "in the late 1980s the Indian Air Force had a three-to-one air superiority over Pakistan. Today, the Indian Air Force can barely muster a 1.6 to one superiority over Pakistan. So, that's been a very sharp decline over two decades."

With regard to China, Tellis said, "There was a time when-although the Chinese always had a larger air force-the size of the Indian Air Force and the quality of its airplanes were always larger than the high-end segment of the Chinese Air Force." Today, that's completely changed. The Chinese Air Force has dropped in size from a 5,000 airplane force about 20 years ago -- it's somewhere in the region of about 1,700 airplanes. But is moving to a point where the high end of the Chinese Air Force will be larger than the total force-size of the Indian Air Force itself in the years to come.'

Thus, Tellis said, "This is a very dramatic change in the airpower balances and this is something that India needs to think carefully about as it makes its MMRCA decision."

"And so, I have one very importance piece of advice for the Indian government. And, that is, whatever you do, buy the airplane quickly because you cannot afford to have force-sizes continue to drop in the way that they have over the last 20 years."

Tellis also strongly recommended to the Indian government to "please buy a single airplane -- don't buy two airplanes. Because there is always the danger that the government might think about splitting the buy in order to satisfy political exigencies. A split buy is not a good idea from the the point of view of the air force because it would eventually, first, make the problems of force diversity -- which are already very problematic in the Indian Air Force -- even worse. And, I believe that the political gains from that strategy would also be relatively meager."

Tellis acknowledged that there very well could be a prejudice against the F-16s in India , since Pakistan has F-16s too in its inventory and said he believed "this is going to be one of the specific challenges that the F-16 faces because there is a prejudice in India that you don't want to buy the same airplane that the other side has."

"And, there are certain legitimate grounds for the prejudice and the standard argument that fighter pilots will give you is if it's the same airplane, then the envelopes are the same, the weaknesses and strengths are the same, there is no way in which you can overcome the other airplane through clever tactics because assuming pilot quality is comparable, etc."

However, Tellis asserted, "There is one catch though, that Lockheed Martin and the US government need to make the point clearly, and that is, the F-16 IN, which is offered to India is not the F-16 Block 50 that Pakistan has in its inventory. The F-16 IN is actually a very different airplane. It's a airplane first with a AESA (Active Electronically Scanned Array) radar. It's a airplane that will come with a whole range of electronic warfare systems that's simply not in the Pakistan's inventory and the sum totality of capabilities in the F-16 IN are unlikely to find their way to Pakistan any time soon for a whole range of reasons."


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## Agnostic_Indian

you know when giving free medical help like surgery etc some govt considers persons age..if same amount is spend on a relatively young person..it is more beneficial..for the person and for the state also.

like that f16's f18's are good for say 20 years or so but relatively young TYPHOON and rafael are the future..where we need to invest..american Jet's are same as america, declining fast..others are like china..bit immature and may not have fine tuned system but they are the future.


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## Andross

bhagathsingh said:


> Is there US technology in the Typhoon ?



Yes there is when the Saudis signed the typhoon deal it had to be passed by US congress but it was cleared without any problems, BAE is a big player in the US defence market also.

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## localoca

GareebNawaz said:


> Gripen..a totally useless aircraft for india


 
I agree...SuperHornet its the plane to go...


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## GORKHALI




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## GareebNawaz

localoca said:


> I agree...SuperHornet its the plane to go...


 
But all my stupid Indian brothers think SH is a horrible deal. EF fkin expensive and useless no AESA, Rafale..pathetic aircaft no future no AESA boasts of stealth, Gripen not worth it, f-16 PAF has it so no room for more in south asia, mig-35 upgraded mig 29. SH is best and more political advantages.


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## MST

GareebNawaz said:


> But all my stupid Indian brothers think SH is a horrible deal. EF fkin expensive and useless no AESA, Rafale..pathetic aircaft no future no AESA boasts of stealth, Gripen not worth it, f-16 PAF has it so no room for more in south asia, mig-35 upgraded mig 29. SH is best and more political advantages.


 
Well if EuroFighter is selected at $115 Million a piece then one thing I can assure you is that the CAG is going to have a field day tearing apart MOD/IAF. Buying a plane twice as expensive compared to SH with no AESA. No wonder IAF took an year explaining the different evaluation parameters to MOD. But who is going to explain it to CAG.
All ingredients of this becoming another major scandal which the Govt can't afford. Image the News channel headlines 

Bottom line is that price will be a major factor among the shortlisted planes and SH has a major advantage here (if it gets shorlisted).

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## localoca

MST said:


> Well if EuroFighter is selected at $115 Million a piece then one thing I can assure you is that the CAG is going to have a field day tearing apart MOD/IAF. Buying a plane twice as expensive compared to SH with no AESA. No wonder IAF took an year explaining the different evaluation parameters to MOD. But who is going to explain it to CAG.
> All ingredients of this becoming another major scandal which the Govt can't afford. Image the News channel headlines
> 
> Bottom line is that price will be a major factor among the shortlisted planes and SH has a major advantage here (if it gets shorlisted).


 SH comes with a mature LPI AESA, no other plane here can say that...


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## acetophenol

iaf is goin to be stronger!
Mmrca+mca+fgfa+tejas


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## dbc

MST said:


> Well if EuroFighter is selected at $115 Million a piece then one thing I can assure you is that the CAG is going to have a field day tearing apart MOD/IAF. Buying a plane twice as expensive compared to SH with no AESA. No wonder IAF took an year explaining the different evaluation parameters to MOD. But who is going to explain it to CAG.
> All ingredients of this becoming another major scandal which the Govt can't afford. Image the News channel headlines
> 
> Bottom line is that price will be a major factor among the shortlisted planes and SH has a major advantage here (if it gets shorlisted).


 
From a political point of view, which choice is risker for the Indian Government? 

The F-16? because Pakistan has it? 

Or, the Gripen and the ghost of scandals past? 

Rafale? Will India risk buying a fighter no other country has purchased? 

F/A-18 E/F and accusations of succumbing to US political pressure? 

Typhoon's sticker shock?

Politically isn't Mig-35 the safest choice for the Indian government?


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## acetophenol

iaf is goin to be stronger!
Mmrca+mca+fgfa+tejas


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## localoca

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Politically isn't Mig-35 the safest choice for the Indian government?


 Yes...But SH Spiral development will assure it will be up to date in the next 2 decades, the Mig-29 family has reached its limits


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## the rafter

*The Telegraph - Calcutta (Kolkata) | Nation | US pushes deal, secrecy hitch on IAF screen*

New Delhi, Feb. 21: The USs strong pitch to sell its fighter aircraft to India for an estimated $12 billion has run into a hurdle with *the Indian Air Force telling the government that it does not favour the signing of agreements that risk compromising its operational secrecy.*

Air Chief Marshal Pradeep Vasant Naik said in Yelahanka earlier this month that price negotiations for the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) deal could start as early as next month and a contract would be signed by September. The setting of a deadline by the IAF chief has led to intensified lobbying by competitors and the governments backing them.

The Boeing-made F/A-18 Super Hornet and Lockheed Martins F-16 IN Super Viper (a variant of the F-16 Fighting Falcon) are two of the six competitors for the order. The others are Rafale (Dassault Aviation, France), Eurofighter Typhoon (a consortium of the UK, Italy, Germany and Spain), the Saab Gripen (Sweden) and the Russian MiG 35.

The IAF has indicated to the government that US-imposed conditionalities could lead to denial of even such crucial components in their aircraft such as the Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar. An AESA radar allows the pilot in a fighter jet to track more targets faster than older radars.

The tender issued by the Indian government when it invited the companies to participate in the competition had laid down that an AESA radar must be integrated with the aircraft that would seek to bag the order.

The IAF is particularly concerned about the Communications Interoperability and Security Memorandum of Agreement (CISMOA) that the US is pushing India to sign.

The CISMOA is a communication agreement. We dont necessarily have to sign that, Air Chief Marshal Naik said.

But US ambassador Timothy Roemer, who was also at the air show in Yelahanka, said that the US offers such agreements only to its closest allies and Nato partners.

Another senior IAF officer said: The CISMOA is necessary for airforces to communicate with the US easily. Why do we need to communicate with the US all the time?

The AESA radar that the two US companies have offered in the Super Hornet and the Super Viper are made by Raytheon. Raytheon Asia president Admiral (retired) Walter Doran insists that the CISMOA would not be a hurdle.

He cites the initial Indian reservation over the signing of the End-User Monitoring Agreement, a pact that allows the US government to inspect the use of military equipment it has allowed to be sold.

Two years ago that was such an issue. But now nobody even talks about it, Doran said, emphasising that as the US-India relationship grows these will cease to matter.

US officials also cite the transfer last fortnight of the first of six C-130J-30 Super Hercules tactical airlifter to the IAF. But the US competitors for the IAF fighter aircraft order  such as the European firms  give the same example a different twist because the Super Hercules was delivered without some of the equipment that would have been available if the CISMOA was sealed.

Even if the government chooses one of the two competing US aircraft  after the IAF completed the flight evaluation trials for the six fighter aircraft last July  there would be questions on whether it is a payback for the clinching of the civilian nuclear pact. The US has been aggressively looking for billion-dollar orders from India to create jobs in its traditional industries, such as military aviation companies.

Raytheon, of all the US companies, has huge stakes in the Indian military orders. The company has more than 8,000 products. It practically opened the door for large-scale US military transfers to India when 12 artillery Firefinder An-TPQ/37 radars made by it were contracted by New Delhi in 2002.

For the F/A-18 Super Hornet and F-16 Super Viper, Raytheon has offered to make and integrate not only the AESA radar but also electronic warfare (EW) suites including radar warning systems, a towed decoy system and electro-optical targeting flares.

The European and Russian competitors of the US companies are, in turn, trying to convince the Indian government that their weapons and systems will be delivered with no strings attached.

The IAFs reservation on signing the CISMOA have particularly raised the hopes for the Eurofighter Typhoon and Dassault Aviations Rafale in particular that have the least US content in their platforms after the Russians. (The US forbids exports of military hardware to Russia). The Saab Gripen is powered by a US-made engine (the GE 414) and has some avionics from the US that the Swedish company is telling the IAF will not be an issue because they would buy the equipment from the Americans off-the-shelf. The Russian MiG-35 has no US-made component but its absence at the airshow in Yelahanka this week reflects a loss of confidence in Moscow to bag the $12 billion MMRCA deal.


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## the rafter

*defence.professionals | defpro.com*







16:21 GMT, February 21, 2011 At Aero India 2011 Eurofighter and partner company BAE Systems unveiled for the first time more details about the studies carried out for the initial definition of the navalised version of the Typhoon.

These studies have included the assessment of required design changes, piloted simulations to refine the aircraft&#8217;s handling qualities and discussions with key suppliers. The studies indicate that these changes are feasible, and would lead to the development of a world-beating, carrier-based fighter aircraft.

*The most important element of the navalised Typhoon is that its exceptional thrust-to-weight ratio allows the aircraft to take off from a carrier without using a catapult but with a simple and much cheaper &#8220;ski-jump&#8221;. Detailed simulations have shown that the aircraft will be able to take off and land in this way with a full weapon and fuel load &#8211; providing a truly potent and flexible naval aviation capability.*

*The basic design of Typhoon helps to minimise the modifications needed to allow a Typhoon to conduct naval operations from a carrier. The aircraft&#8217;s structure is exceptionally strong, having been designed from the outset for the high dynamic loads associated with extreme air combat manoeuvring. The modifications required are limited and include a new, stronger landing gear, a modified arrestor hook and localised strengthening on some fuselage sections near the landing gear, as well as updates the EJ200 engines. *

To reduce the aircraft&#8217;s approach speed and the resulting landing loads the study envisages the introduction of a thrust-vectored variant of the Eurojet EJ200 engine. Thrust vectoring (Engines with TVN have already undergone factory testing in the Eurojet facility) could be fully integrated into Typhoon&#8217;s advanced Flight Control System (FCS), allowing the pilot to focus on flying the approach path while the FCS manages the engine nozzle position. The ability to change the angle of the engines&#8217; thrust will allow for a further enhancement in Typhoon&#8217;s already outstanding manoeuvrability, supercruise performance, fuel consumption and the handling of asymmetric weapon configurations.

A key design driver for navalised Typhoon is the commonality at 95 per cent with the land variant. Design changes are minimised, allowing for most of the spare parts and test equipment to be shared across a customer&#8217;s air force and navy fleets. The sensors, systems and weapons available to both variants will be common, allowing for a reduction in the aircrew training requirements. And in addition, the two variants will benefit from a common upgrade path &#8211; new capabilities will be available to both the air force and navy in similar timescales.

A navalised Typhoon can deliver this commonality, without compromising on capability.


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## the rafter




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## Kevrai

the rafter said:


>


 
number 7 on that list looks like a J-10 instead of a rafale


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## Bang Galore

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> From a political point of view, which choice is risker for the Indian Government?
> 
> The F-16? because Pakistan has it?
> 
> Or, the Gripen and the ghost of scandals past?
> 
> Rafale? Will India risk buying a fighter no other country has purchased?
> 
> F/A-18 E/F and accusations of succumbing to US political pressure?
> 
> Typhoon's sticker shock?
> 
> Politically isn't Mig-35 the safest choice for the Indian government?


 
Mig-35, the safest choice? The CAG would probably murder the government for buying an aircraft that doesn't exist. F-16 - no real chance & not only because the Pakistanis have it. MoD & IAF would have to explain why they bought an aircraft that is is being phased out. A very good bet that they don't want to go down that route. 

There are only four serious contenders:
Typhoon
Rafale 
SH
Gripen

I have read reports that the typhoon came out best in the evaluation but was it so much better than the the SH that paying double the price would be considered worth it? I have my doubts. The Rafale is neither here or there, expensive & didn't even come out on top! The fact that it has never been sold elsewhere must be held against it. It would mean that the IAF would be funding most of the development on that platform. Again with the french messing up the M-2000 upgrade in terms of the price quoted, I think that the IAF & the MoD would be very wary of giving them another handle to twist. The fact that the french have received huge orders for submarines as well as a massive order for nuclear plants makes them less attractive as a political consideration. The EF would be a better choice among the two. The SH has the advantage of being favoured on political considerations but not coming out on top of the evaluation means that there is a possibility of criticism about succumbing to American pressure. It defnitely has a cost advantage but it needs a boost from the American government to push it over the line. That boost would have to be offer of technology not previously released. I believe that this contract is U.S.'s to lose. They need to come across as strong partner more willing to share technology and harping about how they deal with their other allies is unlikely to cut it. They will have to deal with India on a different plane to any of their other allies. The Gripen, unlike your reading comes with almost no political cost, The Bofors issue is company related, not country related. The corollary is that there is no political gain either. Probably the plane that most fits IAF specifications, the downside is that it is simply not comparable to the other three because of its weight class. The Gripen is likely to be a default choice if the SH cannot cut it & the EF is deemed too expensive. It is also possible that the gripen will be used to even out the cost by splitting the deal. I have always favoured a split between the gripen & the SH for the contract.

*P.S.:* Best to remember that this is India, anything that is deemed to be true; the opposite is also probably true!

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## Water Car Engineer

Eurofighter with CFT..


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## MST

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> From a political point of view, which choice is risker for the Indian Government?
> 
> The F-16? because Pakistan has it?
> 
> Or, the Gripen and the ghost of scandals past?
> 
> Rafale? Will India risk buying a fighter no other country has purchased?
> 
> F/A-18 E/F and accusations of succumbing to US political pressure?
> 
> Typhoon's sticker shock?
> 
> *Politically isn't Mig-35 the safest choice for the Indian government?*


 
Shortlisting of the fighters is the key here.
Only those fighters will be shortlisted that full fill the requirements of IAF(technical parameters) & MOD (offset etc). That means all shortlisted candidates are fit for consumption. After that it will be the L1 bidder who has the major advantage. 

Remember the GE F414 vs EJ2000 competition. Inspite of all the noise created by the EURO consortium about TOT and all in the end L1 bidder GE took the cake. In case of MMRCA probably the life cycle cost will be taken into account but in the end L1 will most likely win. The Indian Govt at this time can't risk a grey area in the award of the deal. The descision will be black and white in the sense that Lowest cost plane wins.

Regarding shortlisting, the following most likely won't be shortlisted. 
*MIG 35* . A paperplane won't be ready in the 2013-2014 time frame. And even the Russians seem to have given on it (absent in Aero India)
*F-16*- Pakistan has it. 

All other planes have a chance of getting shortlisted. The once under risk are *Grippen* (NG version is another paper plane. Will it be ready on time?) and *SH *(will the US impose on CISMOA and what about the AESA? IAF won't accept a degraded radar.) 


One thing to remeber is that CAG does evaluation not just on the cost factors but also technology and time parameters. It will definately raise an objection if the govt buys a a plane (EF) which is 10% better (but missing AESA- a key requirement) than another plane (SH) paying 2 times the amount of money or a plane (Mig 35) that will only be ready by 2015-2016. The Govt can't afford that . 

In the end as Bang Galore said I also think *"This competition is for the US to loose".*

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## sancho

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> So what if it wasn't shown at Aero India?



Yeah sure, who cares about the latest weapon package, that the EF partners are officially proposing to India, when you have 10 year old brochures. 

And when we talk about lies, are talking about things like EPE engine funded by USN, a super maneuverable F18SH, conformal AESA arrays on DRDO AWACS...and all those other stuff you made up? 




PRATEEK said:


> Data link of course , why did i mention F22 IFDL ,link22 in first place .
> 
> I don't think France has any intra flight data link apart from MIDS/Link16.
> And one thing for sure MIDS is neither Passive/silent and nor it works in LPI mode .
> 
> Rafale updating a MICA via data link can easily be intercepted by the loop-hole in datalink . Until and unless France has developed some space tech to communicate and update missile without emitting.



You didn't explained how they intercept the data link signals, but you just proved what I said. Rafale is hard to detect because it don't emit signals, neither it's IRST, nor the MICA seekers, or SPECTRA does and that's all it needs to detect, identify, locate and guide weapons. If you are right, the opponent will detect the data link signals only after the missile is already launched, which means, when it's too late anyway!


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## kingdurgaking

MST said:


> Well if EuroFighter is selected at $115 Million a piece then one thing I can assure you is that the CAG is going to have a field day tearing apart MOD/IAF. Buying a plane twice as expensive compared to SH with no AESA. No wonder IAF took an year explaining the different evaluation parameters to MOD. But who is going to explain it to CAG.
> All ingredients of this becoming another major scandal which the Govt can't afford. Image the News channel headlines
> 
> Bottom line is that price will be a major factor among the shortlisted planes and SH has a major advantage here (if it gets shorlisted).


 
CAG does not compare the price with different aircraft.. if they raise this as an audit issue IAF can be quick enough to respond saying that the selected aircraft only suits there requirement... secondly CAG scams only how the money is spent...

Secondly American planes looks promising but they are good only for NATO.. with the pressing of CISMO and EUMA we can assume how they are dealing with us.. they have to be a just business men while selling to INDIA with certain agreements not contolling the product they are *selling * to us... First of all it is so stupid of them to join this Indian Tender ...


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## MST

kingdurgaking said:


> CAG does not compare the price with different aircraft.. if they raise this as an audit issue IAF can be quick enough to respond saying that the selected aircraft only suits there requirement...* secondly CAG scams only how the money is spent...*


Not True. Remember the Derby for India's Sea Harrier. They questioned the capability of the missile wrt to Navy's requirements. Infact they questioned the whole upgrade itself. In short they are not just limited to money spent. They will go into the MMRCA requirements given by IAF what aircraft has been purchased and at what cost. 

Also as I already mentioned in my previous post aircraft that don't meet IAF requirement will not be short listed. And CAG will come into picture only for short listed aircrafts since thats where the price bidding will happen.



> Secondly American planes looks promising but they are good only for NATO.. with the pressing of CISMO and EUMA we can assume how they are dealing with us.. they have to be a just business men while selling to INDIA with certain agreements not contolling the product they are *selling * to us... *First of all it is so stupid of them to join this Indian Tender* ...



If CISMO and EUMA is a problem then US planes won't be shortlisted. But if they are shortlisted they have a very good chance because of price.
*They are not stupid.* They are selling their product. They see potential in Indian market and so they are marketing their product. They will make money out of the deal. But we will surely be stupid to shortlist them inspite of CISMOA and EUMA (considering they are an issue for IAF).


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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> You didn't explained how they intercept the data link signals, but you just proved what I said. Rafale is hard to detect because it don't emit signals, neither it's IRST, nor the MICA seekers, or SPECTRA does and that's all it needs to detect, identify, locate and guide weapons. If you are right, the opponent will detect the data link signals only after the missile is already launched, which means, when it's too late anyway!


 
Sancho i have reservations here.. can you give show me the paper or explan with your knowledge the working modules how it communicates without emitting signals.. .. I will give you a simple knowlege... you need a singal and medium for communication between a transmitter and reciver.. if EW is able to communicate with weapons without emitting signal then it has to be a alien technolgy because the medium here is the air which needs singals to be transmitted..


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## kingdurgaking

MST said:


> Not True. Remember the Derby for India's Sea Harrier. They questioned the capability of the missile wrt to Navy's requirements. Infact they questioned the whole upgrade itself. In short they are not just limited to money spent. They will go into the MMRCA requirements given by IAF what aircraft has been purchased and at what cost.
> 
> Also as I already mentioned in my previous post aircraft that don't meet IAF requirement will not be short listed. And CAG will come into picture only for short listed aircrafts since thats where the price bidding will happen.



hmmmm yeah i accept that.. but IAF has given a rank to MoD already giving their choice.. which means CAG will validate there Rank with the test point.. If you want to find a mistake you can find that even in the best process also.. even six zigma allows mistake..




> If CISMO and EUMA is a problem then US planes won't be shortlisted. But if they are shortlisted they have a very good chance because of price.
> *They are not stupid.* They are selling their product. They see potential in Indian market and so they are marketing their product. They will make money out of the deal. But we will surely be stupid to shortlist them inspite of CISMOA and EUMA (considering they are an issue for IAF).



I dont think even if they get shortilisted it will be the lowest that will win ... we have to see the other offers also.. which we wont get with US products... Further as i said they are subject to end user monitoring which is the biggest bull dung of all agreement.. it is not like monitoring C17 or P8i or Hercules whoese quanity are less.. here they are going to monitor 7 squad dude.. do you think EUMA is good thing on our 7 Squad fleet?.. They are ofcourse stupid in participating in this deal because they knew they have so many hurdles just for the money...


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## baker

am waiting for the media bombardment going to happen after the govt decision on MMRCA... what ever we choose there will be lot of blame on govt for sure...


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## MST

kingdurgaking said:


> hmmmm yeah i accept that.. but IAF has given a rank to MoD already giving their choice.. *which means CAG will validate there Rank with the test point*.. If you want to find a mistake you can find that even in the best process also.. even six zigma allows mistake..


Thats only one parameter. Offsets will be equally important.



> *I dont think even if they get shortilisted it will be the lowest that will win* ... we have to see the other offers also.. which we wont get with US products... Further as i said they are subject to end user monitoring which is the biggest bull dung of all agreement.. it is not like monitoring C17 or P8i or Hercules whoese quanity are less.. here they are going to monitor 7 squad dude.. do you think EUMA is good thing on our 7 Squad fleet?.. They are ofcourse stupid in participating in this deal because they knew they have so many hurdles just for the money...


 
Arree Dude...I am not making judgement if CISMOA is good or bad. Only IAF and MOD knows it. I am only saying that if its bad don't shorlist them. Also I don't think US is stupid. When you are doing business then you try to convert all the potential into a sale. It will be we as buyers who are stupid to shortlist them inspite of concerns i.e. if we shortlist or buy their product. 

Regarding the lowest bidder winning or not only time will tell. My assertion is just that if its not the lowest bidder it will be very controversial


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## sancho

Bang Galore said:


> There are only four serious contenders:
> Typhoon
> Rafale
> SH
> Gripen...




First of all, there was not a single reliable report about EF coming out first from the evaluations! Only UK and Italian reports said that, based on a dubious comment of the Indian ambassador in Italy, which has nothing to do with the evaluations. All later reports simply took that as the base and further interpreted it, but when we look at what they was able to show during the trials, it would be more than surprising if they would be anything else then average!


EF used in the trials in India was from German Luftwaffe, which neither have IRST, nor full EWS features, let alone any useful A2G capability. So all they was able to show in India, was the flight performance of the EF, especially with A2A loads!

The weapon trials were held in the UK and some reports says also in Germany, which according my German sources is more than unlikly, at least not with the EF (possibly with Tornados to demonstrate Taurus, or other weapons). UK has the only EFs that has integrated a LDP and can show some strike capabilities now. They are also integrating Paveway 4 LGBs and according to rumors Brimstone missiles, but it is more likely that Tornadors demonstrated A2G missiles. 
The EF so far can carry the LDP only at the centerline station, because it is the only fighter in the competition, without a dedicated pod station (Mig 35 doesn't have it, but therefor uses and integrated system). That means it can carry only 2 x fuel tanks and 1000lb or smaller bombs, but no 2000lb PGMs at all, not to mention the missing SEAD, anti ship, or additional stand off weapons!

The EF also has no final AESA radar design yet and all they can show in this regard is the CESAR prototype, which is only the ealry base for their AESA developments. The final radar development is only pre-funded yet and the partner countries still did not decided on it, or what other tech and weapons will be integrated into EF T3A, that is on offer for MMRCA.


*Conclusion:*

EF for sure impressed in A2A performance and on paper (before the trials), but that's it!
The lack of commitment of the partners, in regard of weapon integration and further developments is the biggest problem and limits it to worse multi role capabilities than our upgraded Mig 29 SMT and Mirage 2000-5. 
There is no way the EF was able to practically impress in the trials with multi role performance and if at all, could gave some hints on the potential of T3 (if cleared from the partners someday).


When we talk about future upgrades, we should look at the techs and weapons available first and what additional upgrades are on offer, or needed to make the fighter comparable, but are not funded yet. That gives us a real hint on which version will be more capable and how expensive the fighter will be, when they are upgraded to the same level!


*Rafale ($87 millions fly away)*

- HMS (tested, but never integrated)
- M88-3 / Kaveri - Snecma engine (the earlier developed as a demonstrator so far, the latter will get the M88-3 core and could be integrated as well. M88-3 requires fundings for final development and integration, Kaveri - Snecma developmend is already cleared and would need only fundings for integration)
- CFTs (developed and tested, but not integrated and not neccesarily needed for Rafale, because it already has a high range)


*F18SH ($55 to 60 millions fly away)*

- GE 414 EPE (an EDE demonstrator for less costs and fuel consumption was funded by the USN, the EPE instead is waiting for an international customer to fund and integrate it. Boeing and GE officials confirmed, that the USN would go for it only if an export customers pays for it!)
- Enhanced EWS features (MAWS, LWR)
- Integrated IRST (not on offer for India, because it won't be available in time for MMRCA)
- Modern cockpit design (not on offer for India, because it won't be available in time for MMRCA)
- Weapon pod for RCS reductions (not on offer for India, because it won't be available in time for MMRCA)
- CFTs, for longer range (not on offer for India, because it won't be available in time for MMRCA)


*EF ($109 millions fly away)*

- 2000lb LGB
- JDAM 
- RBS 15
- Storm Shadow / Taurus
- CFTs ( to add fuel and free desperately needed weapon stations)
- Avionics and engine upgrades
- AESA radar (early prototypes available, but final development and integration needs fundings)
- TVC (developed, but not integrated, or neccesarily needed)
- Naval Typhoon (not developed, no orders, no other potential customer)


*Conclusion*

*Rafale* - All it needs that the others have is HMS, the TWR is already way better than of F18SH and we just need to integrate the Kaveri - Snecma engines to make it even comparable to EF, if not better! It clearly offers the most in return, for the costs, which means less upgrades needed to keep it useful in future as well!
The lack of exports so far (8 countries are considering it at the moment) means only, that the costs will be divided by less customers (Fracnce and India) 

*F18SH* - Lowest unit costs, but apart from AESA radar, clearly on a lower tech level. Most of the features others offers, are not available in time and if the costs for these upgrades will be added, it will be much closer to Rafale price!
Moreover, the USN has it's own upgrade path and has a focus on reducing costs only (stated by Boeing officials), which leaves export customers funding increased capabilities. But Australia is using it just as a stopgap till F35 arrives and already plans with them in the EW role only, just like the USN. That means, India would be the only customer, that has a real interest to increase the capabilities during the 40 year life cycle!


*EF* - Clearly the costliest choice and depending on what the partners decide for T3A, it will be even more costly to bring it on a comparable level, especially to Rafale!
The naval version has no future at all and would remain completely on Indian fundings.
Future upgrades of the AF version instead will be cheaper, because of more partners and export customers so far, but that doesn't equal the high costs and lack of capabilities now.

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## sancho

kingdurgaking said:


> Sancho i have reservations here.. can you give show me the paper or explan with your knowledge the working modules how it communicates without emitting signals.. .. I will give you a simple knowlege... you need a singal and medium for communication between a transmitter and reciver.. if EW is able to communicate with weapons without emitting signal then it has to be a alien technolgy because the medium here is the air which needs singals to be transmitted..


 
Why so? SPECTRA uses also the IRST in slave mode to guide weapons and that's passive as well! EF can do it too, but not with data from the EWS, only with external data (AWACS for example). That has nothing to do with alien tech, but with the fact that Rafale is not dependent on 1 active system only, like the F18SH and it's AESA radar. SPECTRA is way more than just a self defense suite and combined with all the other sensors (now even with AESA radar), it gives alternative ways as well.


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## SpArK

*Wild Goose Chase in the Skies​*





_India has announced it will sign the much-trumpeted 126-aircraft MMRCA deal worth $12 billion in September. But will it? Unlikely​_



At the just concluded eighth annual Aero India exhibition in Bangalore, roaring jets provided the perfect backdrop for a big announcement. In September, declared Defence Minister AK Antony, India would finally sign its much ballyhooed $12 billion deal for 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA).

The tender for these planes was first floated in 2007; the first fighter jet was expected to be inducted by the Indian Air Force in 2012. Today, the sky swayamvara drags on. There are six fighters in contention: Boeings F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Lockheed Martins F-16IN Super Viper (both American), Dassault Aviations Rafale (French), RSK MiG Corps MiG-35 (Russian), EADSs Eurofighter Typhoon (of a four-member European consortium) and Saabs Jas-39 Gripen (Swedish).

*Though India has yet to announce its final choice, American representatives were already strutting about like winners. The US establishment is convinced that the contract should be awarded to either Boeing or Lockheed Martin as payback for a series of favours, including the Indo-US Nuclear Deal and Washingtons lifting of a ban on technology transfers to Indian defence and space organisations; US Commerce Secretary Gary Locke, who briefed reporters later, even suggested that US firms winning the aircraft deal would be consistent with Americas backing of India for a permanent seat at the United Nations Security Council.*

Antony, however, wasnt showing his hand. This will be a very transparent and an apolitical decision, he said, echoing Prime Minister Manmohan Singhs almost ritualistic-by-now emphasis on the rule of law.

*But there are signs that the purchase order may not be signed at all, not for fear of antagonising the US, but for more practical reasons. For one, big-ticket defence purchases almost always attract corruption charges. The embattled Government in New Delhi is already battling several scam allegations. The Congress, with the Bofors ghost still haunting it two decades later, would prefer caution over valour.
*


Already, the September date is attracting qualifiers. *The deal will be signed in September provided those who lose out dont put a spoke in the wheel, Air Chief PV Naik worried out loud. The fear of rubbing key contenders the wrong way has a pragmatic dimension.*

The Indian defence establishment, while fully aware of US interests in relation with Indias, is also keen to sustain its old equation with Russia. Technology transfers from Russia have proven easier in the past, and this is expected to continue for two reasons. American defence suppliers, being private, have a business interest in keeping technology close to their chest. Also, US deals tend to get entangled in legal stipulations designed to deny technology to countries seen as errant, the threshold for which has always been low.

Its no surprise, then, that the Russian PAKFA Sukhoi T-50 fighter aircraft is to be the base design model for the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) joint Indo-Russian programme finalised last December. PAKFA stands for Pers-pektivnyi Aviatsionnyi Kompleks Frontovoi Aviatsyi, which is Russian for advanced tactical frontline fighter.

The FGFA agreement, valued at $30 billion, is even bigger than the MMRCA deal (though over a longer time span). Under it, some 250 stealth fighters are to be produced for the IAF by 2017, with the development work done by Indias state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) and Russias United Aircraft Corp as equal partners. This is along the lines of the BrahMos venture, under which a supersonic cruise missile has been developed jointly by Indias Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and Russias NPO Mashinostroyenia.

Once developed, the FGFA is expected to represent a generational leap from the MMRCA currently being sought. The FGFA venture is also exciting in terms of HALs role, which would involve developing some hi-tech fly-by-wire computer systems and other navigational aids, for example, apart from fuselage composites. The deal also gives the IAF access to Glonass, Russias advanced navigation system that guides missiles and smart weapons to their precise targets.

*According to Naik, the new plane will be a swing role fighter aircraft with an ability to fly undetected (the stealth aspect), complete with super-cruise and deep strike capabilities that would be sharpened by highly well networked combat software. This would make it comparable to the American F-22 Raptor or F-35 Lightning II, or even the Chinese J-20 that has been making waves of late.*

Once the FGFA design is finalised, India will invest $5.5 billion towards the development of six prototypes. The Russian air force is equally keen to induct the fighters, and the two partners would be free to sell them to a third country.

*The US, keen to keep up, has meanwhile sent India feelers on the possible co-development of the latest F-35, but Antony has rejected these. We are already in an agreement with Russia on the FGFA, he said, No other country has offered a fifth generation aircraft in the past. We have already taken a decision and there is no going back.
*


While jet development can suffer both cost and time overruns, and Indias own record here has been dismal, defence experts see good reason to expect the FGFA programme to adhere to its timeline. The BrahMos experiment worked well, and this is now seen as the new template for an Indo-Russian venture. Also, Russia needs the jets as much as India does, which should hasten things. Its a win-win deal where India can partner, lend expertise, learn and even make money, says a defence insider.

If the FGFA programme moves fast enough, the MMRCA deal would just be a stopgap measureperhaps even a dispensable one. Of course, the IAF might be rendered vulnerable in the interim, but not as badly as you might think. India already has a Sukhoi contract with Russia for the supply of 270 Su-30 fighters, nearly half of which have been delivered.

*Critics, however, say the IAF needs multi-role jets to complement its heavy Sukhois, which are meant for air dominance. Analyst and retired Air Marshal Philip Rajkumar, who was on the team that evaluated the Hawk trainer in the 1980s, says the MMRCA rationale is that the IAF has too many single-role fighters like the MiG-29 interceptor, deep penetration strike aircraft Jaguar and tactical support plane MiG-27. Most of these are part of an ageing fleet thats not very combat ready. The IAFs only multi-role aircraft are the Mirage 2000 and upgraded MiG 21 Bison. Given the Tejas setback, those 126 planes are urgently needed, he argues, and India must act fast. The first 18 fighters would be flown to India, while the rest will have to be manufactured under licence by HAL.*

*But defence purchases are always dogged by delays. The last major IAF acquisition, the UK-made 66 Advanced Jet Trainer Hawk, was in the works for 22 years. The MMRCA deal should be a lot quicker, hopes Hugh Martin, assistant director, UK Trade and Investment, whos in Bangalore to push the Eurofighter Typhoon and is pleased by the prospect of an autumn decision. We are ready if India wants to sign the deal by September, he says.

The defence insider, however, thinks it unlikely. The Congress under Prime Minister Manmohan Singh will not sign on the dotted line till the end of its term in 2014, he says. This deal could turn out to be the carrot that India is dangling to get things done in a fast-changing world where many Western nations are waking up to its importance.
*

Wild Goose Chase in the Skies | OPEN Magazine

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## Markus

SpArK said:


> *But there are signs that the purchase order may not be signed at all*, not for fear of antagonising the US, but for more practical reasons. For one, big-ticket defence purchases almost always attract corruption charges. The embattled Government in New Delhi is already battling several scam allegations. The Congress, with the Bofors ghost still haunting it two decades later, would prefer caution over valour.


 
Unbelievable if this happens.

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## rockstarIN

> The defence insider, however, thinks it unlikely. &#8220;The Congress under Prime Minister Manmohan Singh will not sign on the dotted line till the end of its term in 2014,&#8221; he says. &#8220;This deal could turn out to be the carrot that India is dangling to get things done in a fast-changing world where many Western nations are waking up to its importance.&#8221;



^^2014 is too far


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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> Why so? SPECTRA uses also the IRST in slave mode to guide weapons and that's passive as well! EF can do it too, but not with data from the EWS, only with external data (AWACS for example). That has nothing to do with alien tech, but with the fact that Rafale is not dependent on 1 active system only, like the F18SH and it's AESA radar. SPECTRA is way more than just a self defense suite and combined with all the other sensors (now even with AESA radar), it gives alternative ways as well.


 
My basic question is how is it possible to guide the missile without transferring the data from the source? when you transfer the signal to the missile it is enough for the enemy to locate the source of the missile launcher... Any signal either for Radar or EW is a source marked for detection...


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## the rafter




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## sancho

kingdurgaking said:


> My basic question is how is it possible to guide the missile without transferring the data from the source? when you transfer the signal to the missile it is enough for the enemy to locate the source of the missile launcher... Any signal either for Radar or EW is a source marked for detection...


 
Who said data will not transfered? Radar, IRST, data links, the point is that this will be done passively.


Interesting pic from IDEX 2011 in the UAE, showing weapon loadouts Rafale and EF on offer for them:












Rafale with additional wingstations for 2 x more AAMs and possible triple Scalp / Black Shaheen loading. 
EF with CFTs and 2 x Storm Shadow (I guess Black Shaheen should be similar to be used on it as well). 

Personally I think the EF would be the better choice for the UAE, especially in the mix with F16IN. Would be a great high / lo mix, with EF also giving the deep penetration strike capabilities (in this config), that they want.
If UAE would fund CFTs and weapon integrations..., it could be a big game changer for MMRCA as well, but same would be the point for Rafale. Latest news reports from IDEX sounded very promising and said, negotiations with them are doing well. HMS, additional weapon stations, M88-3 engine, enhenced radar modes, Meteor integration earlier... 
Those Sheiks simply don't know what to do with their money, Dassault and the EF consortium even more, wouldn't mind new fundings.


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## angeldemon_007

> But there are signs that the purchase order may not be signed at all, not for fear of antagonising the US, but for more practical reasons. For one, big-ticket defence purchases almost always attract corruption charges. The embattled Government in New Delhi is already battling several scam allegations. The Congress, with the Bofors ghost still haunting it two decades later, would prefer caution over valour.





> The defence insider, however, thinks it unlikely. &#8220;The Congress under Prime Minister Manmohan Singh will not sign on the dotted line till the end of its term in 2014,&#8221; he says. &#8220;This deal could turn out to be the carrot that India is dangling to get things done in a fast-changing world where many Western nations are waking up to its importance.&#8221;


This is alarming as there's a huge possibility of this happening. I think IAF should directly approach PM and tell them the ground situation which is very serious.


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## duhastmish

if the mrca is kicked off the chart. 

biggest looser will be all the mrca thread fan boys- how many precious life hours they wasted on these thread on various forum. 

but as it stand - india will also become a mockery in front of world , and an unreliable customer. 
*
i dont think india can afford to be there, because still india buy almost all of its military hardware from overseas.*


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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> *EF* - Clearly the costliest choice and depending on what the partners decide for T3A, it will be even more costly to bring it on a comparable level, especially to Rafale!
> The naval version has no future at all and would remain completely on Indian fundings.
> Future upgrades of the AF version instead will be cheaper, because of more partners and export customers so far, but that doesn't equal the high costs and lack of capabilities now.


 
Sancho Tranche 3A is offered to INDIA.. if not they will be disqualified.. Surely EFT consortium would work out something to make sure the price is comparable to Rafale.. because they wont like to loose to Rafale


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## kingdurgaking

duhastmish said:


> but as it stand - india will also become a mockery in front of world , and an unreliable customer.


 
Soar grapes


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## SpArK

*Swedish fighter jets make a halt at Chennai airport​*


CHENNAI: Six fighter jets and two transport aircraft made a halt at Chennai airport since Sunday night. The aircraft left on Tuesday noon. The purpose of their visit is not known. 

"The planes came from Ahmedabad and has left for Andaman and Nicobar Islands," said a senior Airports Authority of India ( AAI) official. "We learnt that the jets came in a formation and left to either the Andamans or Sri Lanka. The fighter jets were parked on the unused secondary runway that is closed for expansion works." 

Air force planes belonging to other countries are allowed into India with special permission. A coordinating agency is usually appointed to interact with them to assign flight routes and parking space. 

Commander of Tambaram Air Force station group captain Mittal said he was not aware of the visit. "If it was a friendly military joint operation, we would have been notified and the jets would have landed at our air field in Tambaram." The aircrat instead used the civil airport. 

A defense ministry official said that the jets may have halted at the airport for re-fuelling enroute to some destination. 

Read more: Swedish fighter jets make a halt at Chennai airport - The Times of India Swedish fighter jets make a halt at Chennai airport - The Times of India


 WTF is *Grippen* doing.. is it for the airshow in Srilanka or anything thats not for public???


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## luckyyy

kingdurgaking said:


> My basic question is how is it possible to guide the missile without transferring the data from the source? when you transfer the signal to the missile it is enough for the enemy to locate the source of the missile launcher... Any signal either for Radar or EW is a source marked for detection...


 
missile also has a computer on board...
before launch all target data get tranfer to missile computer , thereafter missile guided towards it's target of it's own by the help of it's computer & seekers..


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## Dash

> Originally Posted by SpArK
> But there are signs that the purchase order may not be signed at all, not for fear of antagonising the US, but for more practical reasons. For one, big-ticket defence purchases almost always attract corruption charges. The embattled Government in New Delhi is already battling several scam allegations. The Congress, with the Bofors ghost still haunting it two decades later, would prefer caution over valour.



Dont they trust Antony that he can do this in clean manner or just halucination???


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## baker

SpArK said:


> WTF is *Grippen* doing.. is it for the airshow in Srilanka or anything thats not for public???


 
dont worry dude.. they were on the way to thailand..... 




> The Royal Thai Air Force (RTAF) has taken delivery of six Gripen C/D fighters ordered in 2008, making up half of the 12 Gripen ordered by Thailand in total.
> 
> The Gripen fighters were flown from Sweden to Thailand and arrived at their new home base Wing 7 in Surat Thani in southern Thailand on 22 February.



Royal Thai Air Force receives six Gripen fighter aircraft | News | The Engineer


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## SpArK

baker said:


> dont worry dude.. they were on the way to thailand.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Royal Thai Air Force receives six Gripen fighter aircraft | News | The Engineer


 
Bloody ToI dont even have any idea of whats going around.. they dont have any defense reporters.. somebody from this forum needs to apply for a job in there if they are not to repeating stupid articles like these.

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## baker

SpArK said:


> Bloody ToI dont even have any idea of whats going around.. they dont have any defense reporters.. somebody from this forum needs to apply for a job in there if they are not to repeating stupid articles like these.


 
sad part here is even the commander of our airforce base station it self is not updated ..... 



> Commander of Tambaram Air Force station group captain Mittal said he was not aware of the visit. "If it was a friendly military joint operation, we would have been notified and the jets would have landed at our air field in Tambaram." The aircrat instead used the civil airport.


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## kingdurgaking

luckyyy said:


> missile also has a computer on board...
> before launch all target data get tranfer to missile computer , thereafter missile guided towards it's target of it's own by the help of it's computer & seekers..


 
This is true for short range missile not for BVRAAMS... for BVRAAMS missile still need the mothers guidance until terminal phase...
Further they do emit the signals to identify the location of the targets


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## sancho

kingdurgaking said:


> Sancho Tranche 3A is offered to INDIA.. if not they will be disqualified.. Surely EFT consortium would work out something to make sure the price is comparable to Rafale.. because they wont like to loose to Rafale


 
Yes, T3A is offered, but so far not even the partners knows what A will include and what will be delayed for B. They loose to Rafale in the technical evaluations in nearly all comparable competitions, so if they wouldn't be shortlisted by the lack of multi role capabilities and high costs, it wouldn't be surprising, or the first time for them.
From what is cleared so far, the only real advantages the EF has in MMRCA are ToT, offsets and political, while it falls clearly short in operational requirements for Indian forces.




kingdurgaking said:


> This is true for short range missile not for BVRAAMS... for BVRAAMS missile still need the mothers guidance until terminal phase...
> Further they do emit the signals to identify the location of the targets


 
MICA IR is the WVR infra red varient, of the BVR MICA RF, but both has the same airframe and only the seekers are different. That gives the MICA IR the advantage of BVR ranges and the the MICA RF high maneuverability with TVC! 

That's what I said in earlier posts, the French are clearly thinking out of the box and with versatility in mind not only for the fighters (Mirage 2000, Rafale), but also for their weapons (MICA, AASM).


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## shaktiman2010

baker said:


> sad part here is even the commander of our airforce base station it self is not updated .....


 
If Gripen shipment is passing to Thailand over Indian airspace, then the entities who would know this are ATC(Air-traffic controllers) in the country who authorise and sanction permits to land or use civil airfields in country.

Now, its not clear if we have joint ATC operated jointly by IAF and Civilian authority(DGCA?). In any case, the military base commander on ground has nothing to do with this loop. So, don't worry. If anything, its the ATC(civilian/military) and Government who would have known this in advance.

Now, ofcourse TOI(toilet paper) has no fu*king idea of how this works and they know public doesn't know either. So, that munna reporter sitting over his special TOI brand commode, is using the opportunity to create sensationalist reports to increase TRP(sells).


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## luckyyy

kingdurgaking said:


> This is true for short range missile not for BVRAAMS... for BVRAAMS missile still need the mothers guidance until terminal phase...
> Further they do emit the signals to identify the location of the targets


 
BVRAAMS has their own radar on board ...


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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> Yes, T3A is offered, but so far not even the partners knows what A will include and what will be delayed for B. They loose to Rafale in the technical evaluations in nearly all comparable competitions, so if they wouldn't be shortlisted by the lack of multi role capabilities and high costs, it wouldn't be surprising, or the first time for them.
> From what is cleared so far, the only real advantages the EF has in MMRCA are ToT, offsets and political, while it falls clearly short in operational requirements for Indian forces.


hmmm Sancho when you are made to present a RFP for the sales you are providing.. wont you include the specification of the product you are going to sell??.. how is it even in the wildest imagination you can say EADS havent put the sepcification of 3A in the RFP... and how will the EADS will do without getting the approval from consortium... may be there is a formal approval but may be there is no funding..





> MICA IR is the WVR infra red varient, of the BVR MICA RF, but both has the same airframe and only the seekers are different. That gives the MICA IR the advantage of BVR ranges and the the MICA RF high maneuverability with TVC!
> 
> That's what I said in earlier posts, the French are clearly thinking out of the box and with versatility in mind not only for the fighters (Mirage 2000, Rafale), but also for their weapons (MICA, AASM).


 
I really doubt IR Can do BVR target on there own.. it is not possible considering the insulation the atmosphere does.. As far as my knowledge IR can be possible only WVR.... If this is achived then French are masters...


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## kingdurgaking

luckyyy said:


> BVRAAMS has their own radar on board ...


 
Yes but it gets activated mostly in terminal phases only... Most of the time it will be guided by the mother as there computers are not that powerful to acquire a BVR target on there own.. which shows signals are transferred from mother to missile..


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## KEETARP

[Sancho wrote]





> you just proved what I said.



Really 





> Rafale is hard to detect because it *don't emit signals*, neither it's IRST, "nor the MICA seekers", or SPECTRA does and that's all it needs to detect, identify, locate and guide weapons.




Lets see what you wrote earlier 



> Rafale is hard to detect too, because it has a low RCS and don't emits *any* signals



Any ??????? mark any 
Kindly update us which data link Rafale has , which communicates without emitting ?




> Who said data will not transfered? *Radar*, *IRST*, data links, the point is that this will be done passively.



You are confused Radar+data link is not passive . 
Radar has to emit Wave of energy to identify targets 
Sensor is passive which dosen't emit . 
Like FLIR which depends on heat source of target to identify instead of emitting energy itself , 




> If you are right


, 

Yes I was , against your belief Rafale does emit signals 
1. MICA RF - has Active Radar in missile - 
2. Data link is not LPI so it is interceptable 




> Why so? SPECTRA uses also the IRST in slave mode to guide weapons and that's passive as well! EF can do it too, but not with data from the EWS, only with external data (AWACS for example)



Rubbish , PIRATE dosen't depend on AWACS to launch or guide weapons 
IRST device on Eurofighter can calculate bearing data, know precise location to launch IR missile passively . ( and its done passively as well )

_single greatest asset offered by the HMS is its optical motion tracking system. With an appropriately equipped high off-boresight missile (ASRAAM, IRIS-T, AIM-9X, etc.) or the aid of the PIRATE system a pilot can launch short range weapons over the shoulder. In addition it will be possible to project imagery from PIRATE (IRST/FLIR) directly onto the HMS._

Eurofighter Technology and Performance : Cockpit

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## GORKHALI

PICTURES: Eurofighter reveals Typhoon development options for Middle East


The Eurofighter consortium is developing a roadmap for the Typhoon that it believes will offer potential customers in the Middle East options to greatly enhance the type's capabilities.
"The plan is to, over the next eightto 10 years, take a phased approach to enhancing the Typhoon's capability," says Rob Wells, Eurofighter's export future business manager. "It is the exports that are driving these enhancements."
Eurofighter unveiled the plans, which include optional conformal fuel tanks, at IDEX 2011. Other enhancements include the option of MBDA's Meteor beyond visual-range air-to-air missile from 2014 and an active electronically scanned array radar that potentially offers a wider field of regard from 2015.
© Eurofighter
New air-to-surface weapons would include anti-ship missiles, stand-off-range cruise missiles and long-range glide bombs. A thrust-vectoring nozzle is also being offered for the aircraft's Eurojet EJ200 turbofan engines.
Wells says the programme's Tranche 3-standard aircraft will already have the provision to accommodate conformal fuel tanks, and that the consortium is open to collaboration with local industry on many of the options.
"Countries like Qatar, the United Arab Emirates, Oman and Bahrain are looking at fighters, and we are willing to show them what their aerospace companies can do as well," he says


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## Andross

from 2015 for Eurofighter AESA?? so if we pick the fighter our first batch will only have basic E captor AESA i think Rafale and F18SH is ahead in this dept


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## Skull and Bones

Andross said:


> from 2015 for Eurofighter AESA?? so if we pick the fighter our first batch will only have basic E captor AESA i think Rafale and F18SH is ahead in this dept


 
Radars can be upgraded later on.

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## sancho

kingdurgaking said:


> hmmm Sancho when you are made to present a RFP for the sales you are providing.. wont you include the specification of the product you are going to sell??.. how is it even in the wildest imagination you can say EADS havent put the sepcification of 3A in the RFP... and how will the EADS will do without getting the approval from consortium... may be there is a formal approval but may be there is no funding...



Buddy you are completelly missing the points! 

First you have to differ between the consortium companies like EADS, BAE... and the consortium partners, the countries like Germany, UK...

Then you have to understand that not everything the companies develop, will be funded and procured by the partner countries. 

For example, the consortium companies had developed TVC for the EF nearly a decade ago and it would be ready for T3A, but so far no partner country had shown interest in funding and integrating it. That's the reason why the consortium companies are offereing it to international customers like India, if we pay extra for it, that feature will be integrated and could be available for all EFs.
That is the same with F18SH and the growth plan options like the GE 414 EPE engine, it is on offer for us, but only if we pay for development and integration, because USN has no interest in it. Or like HMS and CFTs at Rafale.

Any capability that is important for our requirements and is not funded by the developing country, means additional costs for us and that is a big problem for EF at the moment!
Most of the basic techs and weapons, to make it really multi role capable are missing and if the partners don't include them into T3A, or delay them into T3B, we have to pay way more than the already very high $109 millions each EF to get a useful fighter. The naval EF is even completely on offer only for us, without any potential other costomer in sight and mainly with features that are unfunded:

- re-design of the airframe
- AESA radar
- TVC
- CFTs
- RBS 15 anti ship missile


The cost we pay to develop and later also upgrade this version would be very high and totally useless, compared to taking a proven and available Rafale M, or F18SH.


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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> Then you have to understand that not everything the companies develop, will be funded and procured by the partner countries.
> 
> For example, the consortium companies had developed TVC for the EF nearly a decade ago and it would be ready for T3A, but so far no partner country had shown interest in funding and integrating it. That's the reason why the consortium companies are offereing it to international customers like India, if we pay extra for it, that feature will be integrated and could be available for all EFs.
> That is the same with F18SH and the growth plan options like the GE 414 EPE engine, it is on offer for us, but only if we pay for development and integration, because USN has no interest in it. Or like HMS and CFTs at Rafale.


 
I am sorry.. the basic knowledge on RFP is.....the Proposal document from the vendors will contain , AMC, support and software along with hardware ++ all other requisites.. when Consortium raises these are the features they are going to offer to IAF ... they will charge the same for the features.. it is not going to land on the head of IAF ... feel free to disagree... how the wildest imagination it is going to increase further once the deal is sealed?
secondly FSH road map is a future offer... not the one given to IAF... i guess you are getting confused on multi dimensional..


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## Andross

Skull and Bones said:


> Radars can be upgraded later on.



That will result in more costs to replace a already capable radar with a true next gen AESA plus this states from 2015 who knows if there will be delay further.


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## sancho

PRATEEK said:


> Really ...



Yes you did, but leaving the context out of the quote doesn't help to understand it don't you think?

It was you that claimed the data link singnals can be detected, but besides the fact that you didn't say how, I said even if that would be true, one could detect the signals only when the missile is already launched (for mid course correction). Before that, the data link is not in use, but IRST, the MICA IR seekers and mainly SPECTRA, all these are passive and don't emit and you didn't denied that! 




PRATEEK said:


> You are confused Radar+data link is not passive



Again you should have checked the context of the discussion, it was about ways to guide weapons and transfer the data to them.




PRATEEK said:


> Rubbish , PIRATE dosen't depend on AWACS to launch or guide weapons
> IRST device on Eurofighter can calculate bearing data, know precise location to launch IR missile passively



And for the 3rd time check the context before you comment! 
We talked about long range weapon guidance by the EWS an not short range guidance only by the IRST. 

SPECTRA slaves FSO and feeds it with target data by it's sensors to use MICA and AASM at long ranges. DASS can't do that, because it is not able to locate the target as accurate, therefor it can't slave PIRATE to guide weapons on targets at BVR ranges. PIRATE can do that only with external data feeded by data links, for example AWACS data!


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## sancho

kingdurgaking said:


> secondly FSH road map is a future offer... not the one given to IAF... i guess you are getting confused on multi dimensional..


 
Not really, from the growth plan, the EPE engine and the spherical MAWS/LWR are on offer for the F18SH in MMRCA, they have to do it to fulfill the technical reequirements of the RFP, but on offer doesn't mean funded, developed and integrated!




Andross said:


> That will result in more costs to replace a already capable radar with a true next gen AESA plus this states from 2015 who knows if there will be delay further.


 
Right and even the consortium companies are warning about delays and not meeting the time lines of MMRCA, if the partners will not get to a decision and fund the development. Time is runing, because they pre-funded the development only till next month, anything above that is completly unsure and might depend on the shortlistings of MMRCA.


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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> Not really, from the growth plan, the EPE engine and the spherical MAWS/LWR are on offer for the F18SH in MMRCA, they have to do it to fulfill the technical reequirements of the RFP, but on offer doesn't mean funded, developed and integrated!


 
so if it has to qualify means... it would have provided the proposal with the appropriate cost.. so the final cost will be on MoD's bench... i dont think any vendor will be stupid to quote more than $10^9... if they need to get the deal


----------



## the rafter

*Eurofighter faces pivotal year for Typhoon programme, says chief executive*

This year will be pivotal for the Eurofighter programme if production lines are not to stop in 2015.
*The four-nation project has to secure orders for either Tranche 3B aircraft - now under review by Italy and the UK - or export sales in 2011 or face making mass lay-offs in four years' time.*
That is the stark message from Eurofighter chief executive Enzo Casolini, who describes this as a "year of transition" for the company. He adds: "At the moment the situation looks a little bit dark. If you judge from 25 January what will happen at the end of 2015 I have to tell you that we will close production lines. But we are making a lot of effort in several directions."







Chief among these is the ongoing competition for the Indian air force's medium multi-role combat aircraft, which has the potential to deliver orders for up to 126 fighters. *Casolini believes that intensive political lobbying from Eurofighter's four partner nations will be vital to secure the contract.*
Aside from India, he identifies Japan, Malaysia and the Gulf states as other key potential customers for large orders.
There is also the possibility of selling smaller numbers into eastern Europe, he points out, particularly if nations can be persuaded to pool resources to lower their in-service costs.
"If they all have the same sort of fighter then it is easier to create a common logistic support system and therefore cost is minimised," Casolini says. He identifies the Czech and Slovak Republics and Poland as ideal for a system of shared support.
Eurofighter has also seen Denmark make a tentative approach towards re-igniting its interest in the Typhoon, having apparently backed away from an earlier preference to order Lockheed Martin's F-35 Joint Strike Fighter without staging a competition.
*Casolini believes there is a global requirement for around 800 fighter aircraft, of which Eurofighter could secure 200.*....?


> Could this be a hint that he has smelled getting the MMRCA contract?

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## dbc

I found an interesting quote from a former F-14A pilot that converted to the F/A-18 F. His comments published in the Wings of Gold a Association of Naval Aviation publication supports what I've been saying about the Super Hornet all this time. If a vanilla F-414 400 allows the F/A-18 E/F to "accelerate faster than anything out there" imagine what the F-414 EPE will do.. 



> "The first impression every new aircrew experiences is the E/F's impressive acceleration, especially at low altitude. The jet jumps off the deck and climbs much quicker than anyone is used to from previous platforms. I've never had a takeoff roll in afterburner of more than 2,000 feet in the Super Hornet. A favorite demonstration for someone on a first flight is to accelerate from 250 to 550 knots on the deck. The jet holds your head back in the head box the entire time and picks up 100 knots every nine seconds all the way to 550. The EIF doesn't have the topend interceptor speed of the Tomcat or Eagle, *but will accelerate faster than anything out there*."
> 
> LT Kevin Aanestad (Pilot, F-14A and F/A-18 F):



Super Hornet update | Wings of Gold | Find Articles at BNET


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## sancho

the rafter said:


> That is the stark message from Eurofighter chief executive Enzo Casolini, who describes this as a "year of transition" for the company. He adds: "*At the moment the situation looks a little bit dark. If you judge from 25 January what will happen at the end of 2015 I have to tell you that we will close production lines....*



Confirms what I stated often before, the EF is in big trouble and the future potential is totally dependent on big export order!
UK and Italy reviewing T3B order and most likely will switch to more F35 Bs, although it might be slightly more expensive ($109 vs $133 millions fly away) and delayed, but they are partners as well and will have to fund way less weapons and techs, that the EF badly needs.
Germany is cutting not only the defense budget, but the size of the forces completelly, by making it a fully professional force. That's why the size of the AF fleet is now under review as well, which makes T3B orders doubtful as well. Not to mention Spain, that are close to bankruptcy. 

So the question is, will they offer enough cost reductions and ToT/offset advantages to equal the operational disadvantages?



*Production line comparison of MMRCA contenders:*

*Mig 35* - not started, no orders in sight

*F16* - according F16.net the production will end around 2013

*Gripen C/D & E/F* - the production for Swedish AF will end around 2014, no E/F ordered yet and will depend mainly on an export order

*EF* - without export, or additional T3B orders, the production will end around 2015

*F18SH* - with new orders orders for USN, the production will be extended till 2017

*Rafale* - production for France alone runs beyond 2020


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## the rafter

> Could this be the nail in the coffin for the US MMRCA contender(s)?


Here's why:
*Without CISMOA, U.S. M-MRCA Contenders Come Minus Kit*
Livefist: Without CISMOA, U.S. M-MRCA Contenders Come Minus Kit






Without a communications interoperability and security memorandum of agreement (CISMOA) or information security (INFOSEC) agreement between India and the United States, the Boeing F/A-18I Super Hornet and Lockheed-Martin F-16IN Super Viper -- both contenders in the IAF's $12-billion M-MRCA aircraft competition -- won't come with certain pieces of equipment that are categorized under the highly restricted US C4ISR list. While a specific list of the withheld equipment is not yet available, my sources sent me this list:

** IFF transponder equipment (Mode IV IFF CRYPTO)
* "KY" radios
* GPS/PPS
* Data links
* Sensor source codes for all AN/APG
*
According to the same sources, US rules dictate that exceptions can be made on a case by case basis, and that India doesn't need to sign the CISMOA if it is granted a waiver by the US government. However, that may not be the case any more. To quote from a 16 March 2006 policy memorandum authored by USAF Lt Gen (Retd) Jeffrey B. Kohler, then head of the Pentagon's foreign military sales agency (and since 2008, ahem, VP at Boeing IDS for international strategy):

Transfers of U.S. C4ISR systems to eligible countries and international organizations must support a U.S. Combatant Commander&#8217;s (COCOM) interoperability requirements. The COCOM must require the transfer of the capability. A purchaser&#8217;s desire to be interoperable with the United States is insufficient justification for release. Additionally, the purchaser must negotiate and sign a Communication Interoperability and Security Memorandum of Agreement (CISMOA) or other bilateral INFOSEC agreement (e.g., COMSEC MOU, INFOSEC Equipment Agreement) with the COCOM, prior to physically receiving any U.S. INFOSEC products or services associated with a secure C4ISR system. The COCOM and the purchaser&#8217;s authorized official sign the bilateral CISMOA unless covered under a multilateral treaty and/or separate bilateral agreements, which negates the requirement to sign a CISMOA. The COCOM may negotiate exceptions to a CISMOA on a case-by-case basis. A purchaser should be approved for access to classified C4ISR data and INFOSEC prior to submitting a C4ISR Letter of Request (LOR).

Interestingly, a year later on 23 March 2007, Kohler rescinded the earlier policy. In the new one, among a lot else, the line noting the possibility of exceptions to CISMOA on a case-by-case basis was summarily expunged. No exceptions.

When I asked the Indian Air Force chief last in October last year about his concerns with the CISMOA overhang and what it would strip from American aircraft being delivered to his force, he had said it would make no substantial difference. Someone needs to ask him specifically about the M-MRCA.


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## sancho

> *Sea Gripen will be ready for Indian Navy in no time: SAAB Official *
> 
> 
> SOURCE : VINAYAK SHETTI FOR SECURITY MAGAZINE FEB EDITION
> 
> At Saab Aero India 2011 Pavilion, Indian air forces MMRCA competition was highly discussed topic at each six aircraft manufactures Pavilion, but we managed to get some information on Sea Gripen which has been offered to Indian navy which seeks buy a new naval fighter for its second line of 4++ Gen fighter rather than already purchased Mig-29k.
> 
> Saab official re-confirmed that SAAB has responded to Indian navys request for information (RFI) on a new naval fighter last year, *he also added that Sea Gripen would be part of long term industrial development package for India if it selects Gripen NG for its MMRCA Competition.*
> 
> When asked about the changes that are required in Sea Gripen, he responded Sea Gripen will require Stronger and longer nose wheel, with larger tires and new shock absolvers and new under carriage with 6.3m/sec sink rate, new materials to avoid corrosion risk and new FCS system for carrier landing and takeoff
> 
> When asked how long will it take to make these new changes? , official responded that since Sea Gripen is targeted only for few countries (Brazil and India) technical and feasibility study has already been carried out but Demo aircraft can be ready in no time if interest are shown for the platform, *well he could not disclose time required to carry out this changes, but experts put it at 2 years for the SAAB to carry out this Structural changes in the aircraft.*
> 
> When asked about the developmental cost required for making a Demo Sea Gripen? *Official responded I could guess it will be half of the developmental cost of Gripen NG since Sea Gripen will be based on Gripen NG platform*
> 
> When asked if Rafale and F-18 SH holds a upper hand in Navy deal since they already have a developed Naval version of it ? , Saab official first tried to be evasive *but finally did agree that Rafale and F-18 SH will have upper hand since this aircrafts are in operational with their respected navies and are Carrier capable*, but also added the SAAB had already conducted in depth study on Sea Gripen for years now, and aircraft will be ready if Gripen NG is selected for IAF and Navy also selects the same in no time.



Sea Gripen will be ready for Indian Navy in no time: SAAB Official


*Important points:*

- Sea Gripen development offered as offset/ToT package in MMRCA (which is not useful by the fact that we already develop N-LCA)

- Development is dependent on final Gripen E/F design and could be ready around 2 years later (around 2015, the same time when N-LCA will be ready)

- Development costs half the ammount of Gripen NG development (additional costs for us, because Sweden has no interest in naval fighters)

- Rafale and F18SH are better naval choices

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## Firemaster

sancho said:


> Sea Gripen will be ready for Indian Navy in no time: SAAB Official
> 
> 
> *Important points:*
> 
> - Sea Gripen development offered as offset/ToT package in MMRCA (which is not useful by the fact that we already develop N-LCA)
> 
> - Development is dependent on final Gripen E/F design and could be ready around 2 years later (around 2015, the same time when N-LCA will be ready)
> 
> - Development costs half the ammount of Gripen NG development (additional costs for us, because Sweden has no interest in naval fighters)
> 
> - Rafale and F18SH are better naval choices



rafale naval is the best choice( or increse no. of m29k or nlca)


----------



## the rafter

*India wants fighter jets*

*As Boeing vies for a contract to build 126 new fighter jets for India, an estimated 35,000 new US jobs are at stake. But America&#8217;s foreign policy may tilt India toward European firms instead.*






An Indian Air Force pilot dressed in a flight suit and sunglasses struts up to an F/A-18 flight simulator and a Boeing salesman engages.

&#8220;Your call sign must be Maverick,&#8221; says the Boeing agent, referencing "Top Gun," an &#8216;80s film probably older than this Indian jet jockey. &#8220;You look like Tom Cruise."

After a curt &#8220;no,&#8221; the Indian pilot asks to test out the machine. He lauds the F/A-18's maneuverability and touch-screen cockpit display. It's a far cry from what he currently flies: A Soviet MiG-21 that was outdated even in Maverick&#8217;s day. India is looking to buy 126 new fighter jets and Boeing is dogfighting against five international firms to land the deal this year.

Despite some of the sales tactics on display at the recent Aero India 2011 show in Bangalore, there&#8217;s more to selling fighter jets than moving Chevys. Giving "test-drives" and offering value for money is important, but so are international politics. And on that score, US firms have hurdles that European competitors do not.

Much is at stake for the American economy, including a $10 billion-plus sale and an estimated 35,000 new US jobs. Trips by presidents Barack Obama and George W. Bush to India have increased US chances of bringing home that bacon. But America&#8217;s not-so-humble foreign policies over the years may prove costly in an era of strong European competition in the defense industry.

*&#8220;The quality of European airplanes today &#8211; for that matter the Russians, too &#8211; has now reached a point where countries like India really do have choices,&#8221;* says Ashley Tellis, author of a study on the jet fighter tender for the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. *&#8220;In that sense, [US] political choices are more constrained than they were before.&#8221;*

*India's 'trust deficit' toward America*

Retired Indian generals and industry analysts say Indian officials have two reservations about buying American.

*First, New Delhi worries about relying on US parts given the sanctions Washington imposed in 1998 when India went nuclear. In case of a war with archrival Pakistan &#8211; a US strategic ally &#8211; would Washington curtail military trade again?*

*Second, US law requires defense agreements to be signed by any country purchasing certain high-tech military equipment. The US failed during Obama&#8217;s visit last year to get Indian sign-off on two such agreements: the Basic Exchange and Cooperation Agreement (BECA), and the Communication Interoperability and Security Memorandum of Agreement (CISMoA).*

According to Mr. Tellis, the CISMoA would keep India from transferring sensitive US encryption technology to another country. The BECA, meanwhile, has been misunderstood as a deal that would plot Indian military units on a global grid visible to the US and its partners.

&#8220;The fact of the matter is that this is not true,&#8221; says Tellis, who has served on the US National Security Council.

He and other analysts doubt the defense agreements will be central to Delhi&#8217;s decision on the fighters. But the suspicion about the agreements speaks to the lingering distrust of the US.

An Indian defense industry consultant who works with international firms and the Indian military says the Indians will only buy American for systems where there is no good competitor. *The trust deficit, he says, comes not just from the 1998 sanctions, but US treatment of other friends.*

*Do European firms have less baggage?*

It&#8217;s a point other nations bring up.

*Ravit Rudoy, marketing communications manager for Israeli firm Rafael Advanced Defense Systems Ltd., argues the US will be careful to ensure a military balance between India and Pakistan, while that concern is not shared by the one Russian and three European firms also vying for the fighter jet deal.*

Tellis sees Europeans as more willing to provide equipment with no questions asked because their firms need foreign sales more to stay afloat. &#8220;The European market is so small, so they cannot afford to make their commercial products playthings of geopolitics.&#8221;

Representatives of Boeing and Lockheed Martin say international politics are not a hurdle for US firms here. Rick McCrary, Boeing&#8217;s lead on the jet fighter bid, points to the &#8220;ongoing, improving relationship&#8221; between Washington and New Delhi that has now spanned three administrations, both Republican and Democratic.

Obama builds goodwill toward US firms

Much has changed since 1998, including the signing of a nuclear deal under Mr. Bush and the lifting of export restrictions on Mr. Obama&#8217;s recent visit, he adds.

Ramesh Phadke, a retired Indian Air Force officer, agrees that Indian suspicions about the US have diminished in recent years, signaled by some purchases of equipment.

&#8220;America maintaining a special relationship with Pakistan has always been a major factor in all decisions India has made with Americans, but it&#8217;s also been accepted up to a point,&#8221; says Air Commodore Phadke. *&#8220;That does not mean that India likes it.&#8221;*

Privately, one US executive who is not authorized to speak argues the defense agreements are a &#8220;barrier&#8221; for the American bids.

&#8220;The playing field isn&#8217;t level&#8221; with the Europeans, says the executive. &#8220;We&#8217;re perceived by the Indians as being heavy handed. If you actually read the language of the agreements they are not as intrusive as the Indians are making them out to be&#8230;. [But] they want a relationship on an equal footing.&#8221;

Obama has played to that desire by endorsing India&#8217;s bid for a permanent UN Security Council seat. And Tellis says the administration will continue to be accommodating if a US firm is a chosen as a finalist.

&#8220;I think the Obama administration will really do its utmost to make sure that whatever concerns India has both on a political and technical level are assuaged, because the US at this point for economic reasons really wants to see this deal.&#8221;


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## SpArK

*The Promotional video for new Eurofighter display skin which will fly for the first time at the Virtual TUKUMS Airshow​*






​


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## sancho

* F-16IN Super Viper*







Klick here to zoom in:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-VQMh1GhIehY/TWldNwnBHUI/AAAAAAAAM1s/Q0EQOK1VqOc/s1600/GP1.jpg


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## GORKHALI




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## KEETARP

sancho said:


> It was you that claimed the data link singnals can be detected, but besides the fact that you didn't say how,



And that's a fact - Data links do emit .
I can't explain physics behind cryptoanalysis , ELNIT , Radar MASNIT for intercepting signals
Perhaps better say - I am not knowledgeable enough to explain .
But still if you want ; go thru - Signal Analysis , COMSEC , TEMPEST related articles on net . 
Especially when debate on signing "communications security agreement" with USA is going on .





> Again you should have checked the context of the discussion, it was about ways to guide weapons and transfer the data to them.



Nope buddy , you claimed data-links are passive in prev post ---- See your statement [Sancho wrote "Who said data will not transfered? Radar, IRST, data links, the point is that this will be done passively."]

Hmm
You regard SPECTRA very highly then kindly explain my query "How will Spectra identify a AESA radar operating in *very low probability of intercept* , will it be able to identify those frequency variable+frequency hopping signals from clutter dense environment ,. 
Esp can it detect at ranges before a F18 can launch AIM120 (120kms) by detecting Rafale in air by its APG79 power. ????? 
If SPECTRA is not able to identify a LPI AESA radar signal at long ranges , then even AESA radar is also virtually passive .




> DASS can't do that, because it is not able to locate the target as accurate



You tell us what is fraction of accuracy of DASS at different ranges ??????????
At what range does DASS operate ???????




> PIRATE can do that only with external data feeded by data links, for example AWACS data



Again PIRATE can cue any Infrared missile (of whatever range ) passively at target detected by PIRATE's IRST sensor ( Range of PIRATE ?????) 

Reminds me METEOR (game changing BVR A2A Missile as rumored) will lack 2 way data link on Rafale , while Gripen and Eurofighter will be able to update via 2 way links to launch and leave and still expect to have a higher probability to hit target .

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## kingdurgaking

I had a very dreadful dream yesterday that IAF has chosen F18... cant believe it.. i woke up and understood it was a dream


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## sancho

PRATEEK said:


> *And that's a fact* - Data links do emit .
> I can't explain physics behind cryptoanalysis , ELNIT , Radar MASNIT for intercepting signals
> *Perhaps better say - I am not knowledgeable enough to explain...*



 So basically you don't know it exactly, especially not if any fighter could detect such signals, because that's what we are talking about. The advantages Rafale offers to complement MKI in BVR combats and passive detection features, alongside of beeing hard to detect itself, because it don't emit signals the opponent can detect gives Rafale an advantage that EF don't have.
Just like Rafales SPECTRA EWS offers advantages, that EFs DASS don't have, but it seems you still did not understand the difference, although we talked about it several times before.
SPECTRA can detect radar signals of A2A and A2G targets with the RWR and identify them via ESM, EF can do the same, because it has similar systems (although not as capable). That means both detect a possible threat, identify it and gets a basic bearing to avoid it, this mainly adds to the situational awareness of both fighters and to the self defense capabilities, but now comes the difference of both systems!
SPECTRA also uses interferometer antennas to geolocate the radar and gather accurate target datas. SPECTRA makes use of all these sensors, not only for enhanced situational awareness and self defense by avoiding these threats. It also use them for offensive actions, by providing these datas to FSO, or directly to weapons and engage the threats. That's why Rafale can do SEAD with AASM and SPECTRA, or why Rafale can engage passively in BVR, with MICA IR and SPECTRA. Both unique capabilities that EF and several other MMRCA contenders simply don't offer yet, or even will not have at all!

These unique capabilities of SPECTRA as a system and Rafale as a fighter, are the reasons why I regard both as very capable additions to Indian forces, besides several other advantages.

I don't doubt that EF would have a clear advantage over Rafale in active AESA radar detection, whenever the Captor - E radar will be developed, ready and mature enough. But as I said at the begining of this discussion, the French compromised here on purpose, in favour of other advantages and these advantages makes MKI / Rafale the way better combo for IAF in A2A and A2G!




kingdurgaking said:


> I had a very dreadful dream yesterday that IAF has chosen F18... cant believe it.. i woke up and understood it was a dream


 
Must be a nightmare right?


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## SpArK

*The Eurofighter Star Wars Helmet in the flesh​*











The helmet has some 35 to 40 LED sensors mounted on the outer surface of the helmet, as shown above, which interact with other sensors placed around the cockpit.





Such sensors interact with the ones on the helmet and figure out the pilot's view.


The pilot moves his helmet around to zero in on the target.





This screen shows what the pilot sees on the helmet-mounted display​


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## Agnostic_Indian

we may need to increase the numbers mrca because pakistan is getting J10 and negotiating with america for more f16(don't know which model).


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## sancho

Agnostic_Indian said:


> we may need to increase the numbers mrca because pakistan is getting J10 and negotiating with america for more f16(don't know which model).


 
MMRCAs are focused on north eastern borders and China, like all our recent defence procurments are. PAF will be taken care off by upgraded Mig 29 and Mirage 2000, LCA MK2 and a few MKI/MMRCA squads in addition only.


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## GareebNawaz

sancho said:


> MMRCAs are focused on north eastern borders and China, like all our recent defence procurments are. PAF will be taken care off by upgraded Mig 29 and Mirage 2000, LCA MK2 and a few MKI/MMRCA squads in addition only.


 
Hey Sancho dont you think that it is time we give the mirage 2000 a rest? It is futile to constantly maintian and upgrade it. It is a very old aircraft and even though we can keep it up and running its quality and relaiblity will detiorate. I personally like the aircraft very much and it served us well in Kargil war, but they should be replaced by tejas (i know different aircrafts with diff roles), but we can modify tejas mk 2 right?


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## sancho

GareebNawaz said:


> Hey Sancho dont you think that it is time we give the mirage 2000 a rest? It is futile to constantly maintian and upgrade it. It is a very old aircraft and even though we can keep it up and running its quality and relaiblity will detiorate. I personally like the aircraft very much and it served us well in Kargil war, but they should be replaced by tejas (i know different aircrafts with diff roles), but we can modify tejas mk 2 right?


 
No, imo it is a very capable multi role fighter and it's just as old as the Mig 29s that we upgrade. It still has some life left and will serve us good till LCAs (I think MK2 will serve in similar roles like Mirage 2000) and MMRCAs will be available in sufficient numbers and so far we neither had any reliability, or quality issues. French fighters are costly, but also known to be very reliable, if you go through the net and search for availability rates of Mirage 2000 and Rafale, during war times like Kosovo, Iraq, Afghanistan, or just exercises, you always will find them over 90%. Not to forget that this field is not the best side of Russian fighters, I think M2K will remain usefull till the end of it's life.


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## GareebNawaz

It is simply just outdated. Simple as that. tejas mk2 needs to be inducted in huge numbers so we can retire m2k.


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## sancho

GareebNawaz said:


> It is simply just outdated. Simple as that. tejas mk2 needs to be inducted in huge numbers so we can retire m2k.


 
Says who? It is comparable to F16 B52s and even better than LCA MK1s. The rest is simple maths, LCA MK2 will be inducted fom 2015/16 onwards and first need to replace Mig 21s, which means when that is done, we could replace Mirage 2000s as well, but then we have 2020 and the life of the Mirage and Mig are about to end anyway.


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## GareebNawaz

sancho said:


> Says who? It is comparable to F16 B52s and even better than LCA MK1s. The rest is simple maths, LCA MK2 will be inducted fom 2015/16 onwards and first need to replace Mig 21s, which means when that is done, we could replace Mirage 2000s as well, but then we have 2020 and the life of the Mirage and Mig are about to end anyway.


 
Fighter pilot i met from lockheed martin who happens to fly f-16.


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## sancho

GareebNawaz said:


> Fighter pilot i met from lockheed martin who happens to fly f-16.



 I guess that explains everything. Ask the UAE why they regard their Mirage 2000-9s so highly, or the Greek Air Force with their 2000-5s, although both have latest F16s as well. 
With the new upgrade our Mirage 2000s will get BVR capabilities, will carry 4 x BVR missiles and 2 x WVR missiles in any A2A mission, will get new radar (although I would have tried to get the same radar as LCA MK1 will get for commonality), HMS, latest EWS and other avionics. The fact that the whole airframe will be overhauled should include RCS reductions, so all in all, the Mirage will remain to be one of the top fighters in South Asia. I hope that we will upgrade the twin seats for strikes, with special avionics and some Scalp cruise missiles and AASM, or SPICE PGMs, to have a capable deep penetration alternatives to Jags, because I regard them as limited useful.

G8


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## GareebNawaz

sancho said:


> I guess that explains everything. Ask the UAE why they regard their Mirage 2000-9s so highly, or the Greek Air Force with their 2000-5s, although both have latest F16s as well.
> With the new upgrade our Mirage 2000s will get BVR capabilities, will carry 4 x BVR missiles and 2 x WVR missiles in any A2A mission, will get new radar (although I would have tried to get the same radar as LCA MK1 will get for commonality), HMS, latest EWS and other avionics. The fact that the whole airframe will be overhauled should include RCS reductions, so all in all, the Mirage will remain to be one of the top fighters in South Asia. I hope that we will upgrade the twin seats for strikes, with special avionics and some Scalp cruise missiles and AASM, or SPICE PGMs, to have a capable deep penetration alternatives to Jags, because I regard them as limited useful.
> 
> G8



exactly i agree with you that mirages are good asset to have. BTW what HMS, EWS, AASM, SPICE? i am not good with abbrevaitions.


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## GareebNawaz

sancho said:


> Says who? It is comparable to F16 B52s and even better than LCA MK1s. The rest is simple maths, LCA MK2 will be inducted fom 2015/16 onwards and first need to replace Mig 21s, which means when that is done, we could replace Mirage 2000s as well, but then we have 2020 and the life of the Mirage and Mig are about to end anyway.


 
So the m2k is comparable to f-16? if this was so this whole mmrca tamasha would have not begun in the first place. IAF clearly wants an aircraft that can do what the mig+m2k does which would be superhornet and rafale. M2k is great asset but is already becoming a burden.


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## Andross

Mirage's will still have more than 20 years life in them with the upgrade and they will be state of the art with modern avionics.


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## the rafter

*Typhoon costs soar, upgrades not ready until 2018 | Reuters*

(Reuters) - The Typhoon fighter jet will cost the government a fifth more than previously forecast by the Ministry of Defence, and will not reach its potential as a multi-role aircraft until 2018, a spending watchdog said on Wednesday.

"The cost of the Typhoon project has risen substantially. Despite the Ministry of Defence (MoD) now buying 72 fewer aircraft, down from 232 to 160, a reduction of 30 percent, the forecast development and production cost has risen by 20 percent to 20.2 billion pounds," a report by the National Audit Office (NAO) said.

"This is a 75 percent increase in the unit cost of each aircraft."

The MoD has been repeatedly criticised for delays and cost over-runs on major defence projects. A parliamentary committee warned last year that the ministry could face an equipment funding gap of up to 36 billion pounds over the next 10 years.

Since then the nine-month-old coalition government has ordered cuts in defence equipment and personnel to help rein in Britain's record peacetime budget deficit.

Experts say more cuts may be needed to meet the goal of cutting the defence budget by 8 percent over four years.

The MoD agreed to purchase 232 Eurofighter Typhoon aircraft under a collaborative arrangement with Germany, Italy and Spain in the mid-1980s. The number of aircraft being purchased has subsequently fallen to 160.

The NAO report said that key investment decisions on Typhoon were taken on an over-optimistic basis and that costs had risen at a rate the MoD did not predict.

It added that the objectives of the four partner nations on the project were not fully aligned and that decision-making was slow.

The aircraft was designed primarily to fulfil an air combat role but is being upgraded to become a multi-role aircraft, which can conduct both air-to-air and ground attack missions.

The Typhoon already fulfils some key defence tasks but it is unlikely to reach its full potential as a multi-role aircraft until around 2018, said Amyas Morse, the head of the NAO.

"The full multi-role capability (of Typhoon) won't be available for a number of years. Until this happens the MoD will not have secured value for money from its over 20 billion pounds investment in Typhoon," said Morse.

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## luckyyy

The National Audit Office (NAO) estimates that each individual aircraft is now £55m - or 75% - more expensive than originally anticipated. 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12614995

£55m = 88 million dollor

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## Andross

Thats pretty steep we should go for the Rafale instead which will have AESA b4 the EF does


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## satishkumarcsc

Andross said:


> Thats pretty steep we should go for the Rafale instead which will have AESA b4 the EF does


 
It already has the RBE-2 Functional...and remember Dassault is ready to Install the co-developed Kaveri on Rafale.

Thales AESA RBE2 radar validated on Rafale - Military & Aerospace Electronics


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## angeldemon_007

> The National Audit Office (NAO) estimates that each individual aircraft is now £55m - or 75% - more expensive than originally anticipated.


Will this effect MMRCA??/ The revised bid would have already submitted. The prices of fighter jets increase every year (although not this much) but that does not mean we will have to pay to pay for this. If EF is selected we will be paying what EF consortium has proposed and we will get all those feature with jets which are in the deal.


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## SpArK

the rafter said:


> *Typhoon costs soar, upgrades not ready until 2018 | Reuters*
> 
> (Reuters) - The Typhoon fighter jet will cost the government a fifth more than previously forecast by the Ministry of Defence, and will not reach its potential as a multi-role aircraft until 2018, a spending watchdog said on Wednesday.
> 
> "The cost of the Typhoon project has risen substantially. Despite the Ministry of Defence (MoD) now buying 72 fewer aircraft, down from 232 to 160, a reduction of 30 percent, the forecast development and production cost has risen by 20 percent to 20.2 billion pounds," a report by the National Audit Office (NAO) said.
> 
> "This is a 75 percent increase in the unit cost of each aircraft."
> 
> The MoD has been repeatedly criticised for delays and cost over-runs on major defence projects. A parliamentary committee warned last year that the ministry could face an equipment funding gap of up to 36 billion pounds over the next 10 years.
> 
> Since then the nine-month-old coalition government has ordered cuts in defence equipment and personnel to help rein in Britain's record peacetime budget deficit.
> 
> Experts say more cuts may be needed to meet the goal of cutting the defence budget by 8 percent over four years.
> 
> The MoD agreed to purchase 232 Eurofighter Typhoon aircraft under a collaborative arrangement with Germany, Italy and Spain in the mid-1980s. The number of aircraft being purchased has subsequently fallen to 160.
> 
> The NAO report said that key investment decisions on Typhoon were taken on an over-optimistic basis and that costs had risen at a rate the MoD did not predict.
> 
> It added that the objectives of the four partner nations on the project were not fully aligned and that decision-making was slow.
> 
> The aircraft was designed primarily to fulfil an air combat role but is being upgraded to become a multi-role aircraft, which can conduct both air-to-air and ground attack missions.
> 
> The Typhoon already fulfils some key defence tasks but it is unlikely to reach its full potential as a multi-role aircraft until around 2018, said Amyas Morse, the head of the NAO.
> 
> "The full multi-role capability (of Typhoon) won't be available for a number of years. Until this happens the MoD will not have secured value for money from its over 20 billion pounds investment in Typhoon," said Morse.


 
Great news indeed. 


EF fans...


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## SpArK

*NAO report slams UK's Typhoon acquisition​*







*The Royal Air Force&#8217;s reduced fleet of Eurofighter Typhoons could cost up to £37 billion ($60.2 billion) to acquire and support over the type&#8217;s service life, but will not become the UK&#8217;s first choice aircraft for ground attack missions until around 2018, according to a new National Audit Office (NAO) report.*

Published on 2 March, the government spending watchdog&#8217;s &#8216;Management of the Typhoon project&#8217; overview is highly critical of what it describes as over-optimism, bad decision making and poor cost control on the part of the UK Ministry of Defence.


The RAF has so far taken delivery of 70 Typhoons from the UK&#8217;s planned offtake of 160 aircraft. Although it originally committed to buying 232 examples from the four-nation Eurofighter industry consortium, London has already cut 24 from this total by brokering the sale of 72 aircraft to Saudi Arabia, and also stated its intention to renege on a planned Tranche 3B commitment for a final 48.


Despite the roughly 30% reduction in aircraft numbers, the NAO says the UK&#8217;s total development and production costs are expected to reach £20.2 billion, 20% higher than originally planned. Along with other factors, it calculates that the unit cost of each Typhoon has risen by 75%. *Support costs are also one-third higher than originally expected, it says, while elements of the four-nation management structure are &#8220;complex and inefficient&#8221;.*

&#8220;Our examination has shown that key investment decisions were taken on an over-optimistic basis; the project suffered from corporate decisions to try to balance the defence budget; and the department did not predict the substantial rate at which costs would rise. None of this suggests good cost control, a key determinant of value for money,&#8221; says Amyas Morse, head of the NAO.


However, the watchdog notes that analysis by its consultants &#8220;demonstrates that the amount that the department is paying for Typhoon is in line with that expected for similar kinds of aircraft.&#8221;

The RAF&#8217;s current fleet is now being used to deliver quick reaction alert cover for the UK from Coningsby in Lincolnshire and Leuchars in Scotland, and also for the Falkland Islands.

This emphasis on delivering air defence services from multiple sites has come at the expense of the RAF establishing the Typhoon as a ground-attack asset. The NAO says this will prevent it from becoming the UK&#8217;s &#8220;aircraft of choice for most ground attack missions for some years&#8221;.


&#8220;In 2009, the department slowed down the pace with which it planned to introduce new Typhoon squadrons to cut costs. As a result, it reduced the requirement for flying hours by a total of 21,100 hours over the seven years to 2015-16.&#8221; Accordingly, the report says it &#8220;has prioritised pilot training on air defence roles which is currently its key task&#8221;.

*Despite the cut in flying hours, the report reveals that the lower than expected availability of spare parts caused a 13% shortfall in planned sorties across the fleet in 2009-10. Some parts had to be sourced from other aircraft to support those fighters deployed in the Falkland Islands, it says.*

*Meanwhile, the NAO is concerned by plans to reduce the strength of the Typhoon fleet through the retirement of 53 Tranche 1 aircraft by 2019. The retained assets will be used alongside an as-yet undetermined number of Lockheed Martin F-35C Joint Strike Fighters, but it says &#8220;the department has acknowledged that there is risk that the eventual fleet size of 107 Typhoons could result in shortfalls against mandated capability levels.&#8221;*
The Eurofighter programme also involves Germany, Italy and Spain, plus export operators Austria and Saudi Arabia.

NAO report slams UK's Typhoon acquisition-02/03/2011-London-Flightglobal.com


​

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## sancho

GareebNawaz said:


> exactly i agree with you that mirages are good asset to have. BTW what HMS, EWS, AASM, SPICE? i am not good with abbrevaitions.


 
No problem:

HMS = Helmet mounted sight ( upgraded Mirage will use Topsight I, same as Mig 29 SMT and Mig 29Ks)
EWS = Electronic Warfare Suite 
AASM = French GPS/INS guided bomb kit (similar to US JDAM) in the 250/500/1000/2000lb class
SPICE = Israeli GPS/INS guided bomb kit in the 1000 and 2000lb class

AASM and SPICE are now on offer for the upgraded Mirage 2000




GareebNawaz said:


> So the m2k is comparable to f-16? if this was so this whole mmrca tamasha would have not begun in the first place. IAF clearly wants an aircraft that can do what the mig+m2k does which would be superhornet and rafale. M2k is great asset but is already becoming a burden.


 
Yes, that's why in the initial MRCA competitions, the contenders were Mig 29SMT, Mirage 2000-5, F16 Block 52 and Gripen C/D, with the Mirage prefered by IAF for capabilities and a fast, as well cost-effective alternative. However, the competition increased to MMRCA and has different aims now.
I don't see where the M2K has become a burden for us, by the fact that IAF is more than happy with it and that it has no quality issues like many other IAF fighters.


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## sancho

angeldemon_007 said:


> Will this effect MMRCA??/ The revised bid would have already submitted. The prices of fighter jets increase every year (although not this much) but that does not mean we will have to pay to pay for this. If EF is selected we will be paying what EF consortium has proposed and we will get all those feature with jets which are in the deal.


 

Not neccesarily, because that was expectable and IAF/MoD must have even more accurate figures for costs and capabilities, so they know by now if they can afford it and if it's useful.

However, the high costs for EF was always the problem and the reason why it wasn't shortlisted in most competitions, because it don't offer enough multi role capabilities in return. If we select it, it should be clear that we pay alone for most of it's upgrades now. The EF Tranche 3A that is orderd from the partners is basically an Tranche 2 fighter with some additiona A2G capabilities and the provisions to *retrofit T3B upgrades* (AESA radar, TVC, possibly engine and avionic upgrades) later, that's why most people say the partners won't order the left T3B fighters and simply upgrade the older T2s and T3As to that level someday.

That's why I always said, the important point for India in regard to EF is, when these techs and weapon upgrades will be available?
In 2015 when IAF requires them, or between 2015 and 2020, when EF partners requires them, because they will phase out older fighters (mainly Tornados) only in that time. Not to forget that UK and ITA are focusing on F35 anyway and all this are risks for India, in terms of less capabilities and less future potential.
The partnership in the consortium and in the production of all EFs sounds undeniably great, but even the EF consortium admits, that if no export, or additional T3B orders comes in, the production will be limited to 2015. So where are the benefits for Indian industry, when there will be no other EFs produced, other then the Indian?

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## ganimi kawa

sancho said:


> No problem:
> 
> 
> AASM = French *GPS/INS guided bomb kit *(similar to US JDAM) in the 250/500/1000/2000lb class




*Slight correction, the AASM is more than a GPS/INS guided kit. It also has an Imaging Infra red (IIR) version (called SBU 54) for extra accuracy (CEP 1m vis a vis 10m for the GPS/INS only).*

It also has a semi-active laser homing (SALH) version allowing it to precisely hit moving targets (called SBU 64); though this one is in development phase.


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## GORKHALI

Time to say goodbye to sinking ship (eurofighter)!!


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## sancho

ganimi kawa said:


> *Slight correction, the AASM is more than a GPS/INS guided kit. It also has an Imaging Infra red (IIR) version (called SBU 54) for extra accuracy (CEP 1m vis a vis 10m for the GPS/INS only).*
> 
> It also has a semi-active laser homing (SALH) version allowing it to precisely hit moving targets (called SBU 64); though this one is in development phase.



 I know, but to explain the difference, that was the easiest way.


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## dbc

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> *The French average just a 180 flight hours per year, contrast that with the F-15's 270 hours and F/A-18 E/F's 360 hours per year.* You start to understand the FAB's opposition to the Rafale, it is more expensive to acquire, more expensive to operate and significantly more expensive to arm.


 
A correction to my earlier post, the F/A-18 E/F averages 330 flight hours per year and not 360 hours.




> The plan to keep F/A-18s flying
> Inspection, repair programs aim to extend aging fleet
> By William H. McMichael - Staff writer
> Posted : Monday Feb 28, 2011 5:49:40 EST
> NORFOLK, Va.  Almost 10 years of war have taken a well-documented toll on ground units and their gear. Not nearly as publicized is the wear and tear on naval tactical aircraft  even the Navys top-of-the-line Super Hornet.
> 
> The life of the airplane is getting used up fairly quickly, said Capt. Roy Kelley, commander of Carrier Air Wing 7, who led fliers on back-to-back deployments in 2009-2010. For some of the Super Hornets that made the cruise, he said, were reaching the halfway point of their life. Theyre relatively new, and  third deployment  some of them are approaching 3,000 flight hours already.
> 
> Its a concern, and not just because the newer jets are getting ridden hard. The older Hornets  F/A-18A through D models introduced in 1983  have already had their service lives extended. These jets must hang around long enough to stock the fleet until they can be gradually retired in favor of the F-35 joint strike fighter, which is years down the road.
> 
> *Were basically operating the aircraft, on average, about 330 hours a year, per airframe, said Capt. Mark Darrah, the Navys F/A-18 program manager. *And thats about 30 percent more than we expected, annually. And so over time, those hours accumulate.
> 
> Big Navy is working on the problem. A program of real-time and long-range inspections and assessments, service-life extensions and modifications, naval aviation officials say, is aimed at managing fatigue life and keeping Hornets in the air.
> 
> As they do, officials insist that safety and reliability will trump all other considerations.
> 
> For airplanes that are operating in the squadrons hands, out conducting missions, there are no compromises, said Capt. Mike Kelly, force materiel officer for Naval Air Forces. Its about mission effectiveness, and its about safety.
> 
> Navy-wide, 73 of the fleets 418 Super Hornets  F/A-18Es and Fs  well exceed 3,000 hours. As of January, the oldest E model had run up 3,450 flight hours while the oldest F has flown 4,350, according to the Navys Tactical Aircraft Programs office. Off the assembly line, the Super Hornet has a planned service life of 6,000 hours.
> 
> The older Hornets are a greater concern, having already exceeded their current limit of 8,000 flight hours  a figure already extended from the original ceiling. The Navy wont comment on the readiness rates of deployed jets, said Lt. Aaron Kakiel, spokesman for Naval Air Forces. The data is classified and wouldnt be available until subjected to a security review.
> 
> Mishap rates among older Hornets in which material problems were a factor are down. During fiscal 2010, the Naval Safety Center recorded 0.71 Class A mishaps  which involve loss or life or at least $1 million in damages  per 100,000 flight hours; the average rate since fiscal 2000 is 1.08. No such mishaps have been recorded during this fiscal year.
> 
> FILLING THE GAP
> The F-35 program remains behind schedule, but less so since Defense Secretary Robert Gates placed the Marine Corps F-35B variant, formerly on the fastest development track, to the back of the queue behind the Air Forces F-35A and the Navys carrier-capable C model, said Jeremiah Gertler, military aviation specialist with the Congressional Research Service.
> 
> The A and C models, Gertler said, previously had been held back in production while the B, considered the most challenging design of the three, received top priority for engineering and testing.
> 
> Still, the projected gap created by older Hornets running out faster than F-35s arrive has prompted the Navy to ask for 28 Super Hornets in its fiscal 2012 budget request which, along with money to extend the lives of 150 Hornets, will keep the fleet stocked until the F-35C joins the fleet, Gertler said.
> 
> Those older Hornets could, using inspections and repairs, be extended another 600 hours, to 8,600 hours, according to the Navy. Planners, however, have a more ambitious goal: 10,000 flight hours.
> 
> The effort to further extend those Hornets has its roots in a decision by Naval Air Systems Command to identify areas that would need attention should an extension occur. This consisted of structural fatigue testing on the aircraft and a seven-year effort, through 2008 and continuing periodically, to tear down selected fleet aircraft to assess the effects of fleet usage.
> 
> This work formed the basis of a set of inspection and repair procedures for service-life extension. The program has since been tweaked by Darrahs shop, adding high-flying-hour inspections to programmed maintenance inspections. As much as possible, Kelly said, officials are trying to bundle the latter two to minimize out-of-service time.
> 
> It costs an average of $15 million for each Hornet inducted into the program.
> 
> An extension program is only one of the steps planners are taking to reduce future impact on the tactical air fleet, Darrah said.
> 
> The others are procedures common to every Navy aircraft: an intensive, phased maintenance program, careful tracking of each airframes hours and carrier launches and traps, and sending the best jets forward to the squadrons, which then perform their own juggling act.
> 
> We know exactly how many hours, life-limiting factors, are on each individual aircraft, Darrah said.
> 
> Naval Air Systems Command does a quarterly modification review of each one, with Darrahs team meeting with one from Naval Air Forces. This group, he said, literally makes the decisions every quarter on, bureau number by bureau number, what aircraft will be assigned to what units.
> 
> Aircraft projected to require high-flying-hour inspections during the deployment period, for instance, do not go.
> 
> Out on the carriers, the monitoring starts with the aircraft itself, which can record many parameters in its mission computer, Kelly said. The data file is downloaded after every flight, providing the squadron with relevant usage information. Thanks to nearly two decades of connectivity improvements, that data is transferred back to Navy and industry officials, who process and analyze it before transferring conclusions to the fleet.
> 
> We can see the fleet in almost real time, Kelly said.
> 
> Each squadron has access to its fatigue information. So, while every airplane deployed with the squadron can handle its full performance envelope, as Kelly put it, the squadrons can tweak things with respect to which jets take on which missions  fuel tank and weapons demands, for example.
> 
> We want them to sort of age the population of the aircraft together, Kelly said.
> 
> Our No. 1 thing is ensuring that we have the data and technical information necessary to ensure that the aircraft that are being flown both on and off of aircraft carriers, and on and off airfields all across the world, are safe, added Darrah, a veteran naval flight officer. And that theyre going to be able to execute their mission and remain operationally relevant.




The plan to keep F/A-18s flying - Navy News | News from Afghanistan & Iraq - Navy Times


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## SpArK

EADS mulling over KC-X protest

We are gonna see a repeat of this protest in MRCA over non selection of EF by EADS.


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## sancho

SpArK said:


> EADS mulling over KC-X protest
> 
> We are gonna see a repeat of this protest in MRCA over non selection of EF by EADS.



You must differ here:



> Sandy Morris, aerospace and defence analyst at RBS, notes the USAF's request for proposals *biased the decision heavily in favour of the aircraft with the lowest cost*.



Imo that is the same reason why our FM scrapped the tanker competition, to get Boeing and their KC 767 in, because although less capable, it is expected to be cheaper and clearly fulfills the requirements of IAF and IN way better than the IL 78. 

In MMRCA the US fighters has a similar advantage, but here ToT plays a way bigger role than in a tanker, or transport aircraft competition. That will be tricky for the US, because the Europeans (at least EF and Rafale) can offer the here and if we have a focus on ToT to improve our industry, they are clearly the best choices.
Compared to the A330 MRTT, the EF lacks also in capabilities, especially in those that makes that makes the A330 so good, the multi role capabilities!


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## the rafter

*Eurofighter Typhoon: It's EVEN WORSE than we thought ? The Register*

Yesterday the UK National Audit Office published a detailed report on the current status of the infamous Eurofighter combat jet &#8211; nowadays officially known as Typhoon. We here on the Reg defence desk have always had a low opinion of the cripplingly expensive, marginally useful fighter: but even we were amazed by the new facts and figures. The Eurofighter, almost unbelievably, is turning out to be even worse value for money than we had thought.






This plane is new and has just been expensively upgraded. It will be scrapped soon.

Probably the most dismal figure we are given is that the RAF will actually put into service just 107 Typhoons. At the moment it has received 70: the last of the 160 planes ordered by the UK will be delivered in 2015. But, we are told, "by 2019" all the Tranche 1 jets (which were still being delivered to the RAF at the start of 2008) will be "retired" &#8211; that is, thrown away. We'll pay for 160 jets (actually we'll pay for 232 1), but we'll only ever get a fleet of 107.

This shows the acquisition cost of the Eurofighter/Typhoon in an even worse light than it had previously appeared, when an RAF fleet of 160 had been expected. It is now acknowledged that the development and production cost to the UK of Eurofighter will be £23bn with planned upgrades.

This means that we UK taxpayers will have shelled out no less than £215m for each of our 107 jets &#8211; that's $350m at today's rates, rather more than the US taxpayers have been made to pay for each of their 185 Raptor superfighters 2, almost all of which will be used operationally. And the Raptor has third-generation Stealth: the Eurofighter has no stealth features at all. The Raptor has thrust vectoring for unbeatable manoeuvrability in a dogfight: the Eurofighter doesn't.

The Raptor is a hugely more sophisticated and powerful aircraft, and is actually &#8211; astonishingly &#8211; somewhat cheaper, despite the fact that it is being made in much smaller numbers than the Eurofighter!

That's a really astonishingly bad bit of value for money on our part.

Unfortunately the problems won't be over when the final RAF Typhoons are delivered. There are major problems with spare parts and support, unsurprisingly as the Eurofighter's manufacturing is distributed across Germany, Spain and Italy as well as the UK. The NAO auditors write:

*There are indications of problems with the collaborative contracts for the supply of spares and repair of equipment. There have been shortages of spares and long timescales for equipment repairs on some of these contracts ...

The [2008] spares procurement contract does not include penalties for late delivery ...

To compensate, the Department [the MoD] has had to take parts from some of its Typhoon aircraft to make other aircraft available to fly. *

Oh, those troublesome foreigners and their ramshackle collaborative arrangements! Who could possibly have been responsible for such a rubbish setup?

*... the Department played a central role in establishing the collaborative management structures that still exist today.*

As the biggest buyer, it was actually the good old MoD which had the biggest input into setting up the multinational collaboration system &#8211; and it seems to have done its usual brilliant job.

*RAF pilots won't be ready to do bombing missions until 2016 &#8211; by which time we'll be throwing away planes expensively modified for use as bombers.*

Needless to say, there have been and will continue to be serious consequences resulting from the lack of spares. Our pilots can't get into the air to train:

*The Department has consistently failed to meet the specified targets for annual flying hours, despite reducing its targets. Problems with the timely supply of spares and repair of equipment under the collaborative support contracts [which the MoD itself is mainly responsible for] have been a contributing factor to this failure ...*





Hedgehog, Womble, Lofty and JT liked to go and sit in one for a bit even though they usually weren't allowed to fly it

The lack of planes actually fit to fly is serious &#8211; the NAO reports that of the 70 Eurofighters the RAF currently possesses, just 42 are actually available to flying squadrons. And the lack of flight hours has meant that some flyboys haven't been able to get into the cockpit at all:

*In 2010, the RAF temporarily grounded five pilots.*

Basic air-defence skills have been maintained, but there aren't enough pilots ready to fly ground attack missions and there won't be for some time.

*The RAF currently has eight pilots who are capable of undertaking ground attack missions on Typhoon ... The Department plans to have sufficient numbers of trained pilots to conduct a small scale ground attack mission by 2014 and aims to deliver sufficient flying hours to train enough pilots to undertake the full range of planned tasks by 2016.*

What a joy it is to think that we paid £119m 3 to upgrade the Tranche 1 planes back in 2008 so that they could do ground attack. In 2016 the RAF will finally have the pilots it needs to use this capability: but by then the Tranche 1s will already be being thrown away &#8211; all of them will be gone by 2019, remember.

We paid all that money upgrading the Tranche 1s and now we'll dispose of them without ever having pilots trained to use the upgrade! The Eurofighter story really just gets better and better.

Another depressing piece of news is that not all the paucity of flying hours comes from the spares problem largely created by the MoD. Another difficulty has arisen from our cunning British plan to get the Saudis to buy 24 of the RAF's contractually-obligated 184 planes (that's how the government managed to reduce its order to 160 without breaching its deal with industry and the partner nations).

*Eurofighter will be really useful as a bomber ... for about three years*

Unfortunately the Saudis are understandably demanding to have pilots trained to fly their new jets, and the MoD &#8211; desperate not to be compelled to pay for and then scrapheap Tranche 2 planes as well as Tranche 1s &#8211; gaily agreed to sort this out.





That guy learning? Probably a Saudi

Mournfully the NAO notes:
*Flying hours diverted to training export customers could keep two RAF pilots fully trained in all roles [both air defence and ground attack] in 2010-11 and four in 2011-12. Similarly, support for export campaigns, such as flying demonstrations, has to be managed by the Programme Board from existing resources, diverting them from the RAF.*

Given that we only have eight flyboys capable of flying ground attack at the moment, those are significant numbers (and you have to suspect that the five flyers we grounded last year were bumped from their seats by Saudis). Let's hope that the spares situation can be sorted and we can train more pilots, because the plan is to progressively fit the 107 jets which will remain in service with a fairly comprehensive ground-attack suite including not just smartbombs but the Storm Shadow bunker-busting cruise missile.

It would certainly be embarrassing to pay billions for these upgrades and then not have any airmen ready to make use of them &#8211; and this is the more so as there will only be a brief window of time where the upgrades will be really necessary.

No, we're not making this up. The NAO says:

*Newer Typhoon aircraft will have progressively enhanced multi-role capability by 2018. By this time Typhoon is likely to be the aircraft of choice for both ground attack and air defence.*

Not for long, though:

*The Department plans to move, by 2021, to a fast jet fleet comprising two aircraft types: Typhoon and Joint Strike Fighter.*

The F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter is specifically designed with ground attack in mind, and unlike the Eurofighter/Typhoon it is a stealth aircraft &#8211; fourth-generation stealth, in fact. As soon as the RAF (and the Navy) get the F-35, the Typhoon will certainly no longer be the aircraft of choice for ground attack &#8211; and quite likely not for air-to-air combat either, at least in some circumstances.

You really have to question why we're bothering to turn our Eurofighters into bombers at all, to be blunt. The truth of the matter is that we have to buy the bloody things anyway, and even after throwing more than fifty of them away while still brand new we'll be keeping more than a hundred - far too many for the job of protecting UK airspace, the only thing they're really much good for. So we'll throw good money after bad trying to make them useful.

*'Living within the planned budget for running costs will be challenging' &#8211; No sh*t, Sherlock*

Unfortunately this means that we'll need to support them and keep them flying into the future &#8211; all the way to 2030 on current plans. In general, a military aircraft typically costs two or three times in support over its lifetime what it cost to acquire: that would be a horrifying £46bn at minimum in the case of Eurofighter, enough to replace Trident twice over. Allowing for the fact that we will scrap 53 planes of 160 early, we'd still be looking at £30bn or more.

Amazingly, however, the MoD tells the NAO that it expects to pay no more than £13.1bn to keep its fleet flying until the end of its life. As the auditors dryly note, "Living within the support cost budget will be challenging". They point up some problems in particular:

*The Department is confident that it can deliver the full range of support for the reduced number of aircraft within the originally approved figure of £13.1 billion.

Risks remain ... prices on Typhoon contracts are negotiated with United Kingdom industry on a non-competitive basis under longstanding agreements which enable industry to recover agreed overhead costs. The Strategic Defence and Security Review accelerated the retirement of Harrier to April 2011 and committed to reduce the Tornado fleet by half by 2015 with consequent reductions on work placed with industry. Unless industry is incentivised to restructure to manage this reduced workflow there is a risk that, under the existing arrangements, the costs of under-utilised industry assets will be re-charged to the Department on its remaining contracts &#8211; notably Typhoon ...

The collaborative arrangements present serious challenges if the Department is to upgrade and support the aircraft quickly and cost-effectively ...*

And indeed the MoD, referring to its pie-in-the-sky £13.1bn estimate of Typhoon support costs, admits in a very small footnote:

*[Estimates of support] costs exclude ... the impact of Strategic Defence and Security Review decisions and the impact of changes to industry overheads.*

Or, put more plainly, the £13.1bn support costs figure is rubbish: but nobody at the MoD cares as this will only become apparent some years down the road and thus it will be Somebody Else's Problem. The "conspiracy of optimism" is plainly still alive and well at MoD Main Building.

When the cost overruns begin, even though everyone in the MoD who cares must be well aware or at the very least suspect that they're going to happen, nobody will get in trouble for concocting these fictitious budget plans &#8211; because nobody is responsible for them. Yes, you read that right. As the NAO puts it:

*A key issue is that there is no individual who is accountable and clearly in charge of the whole project.*

So there you have it. For more than 20 years the Eurofighter has paralysed the British armed forces, draining budgets, taking resources away from more useful things, costing more than Trident or a fleet of space shuttles twice the size of NASA's. Its long, drawn-out, agonising procurement process is finally drawing to a close; we finally have decentish non-stealth fighters protecting the UK after the many years in which the dismal Tornado F3 was our only defence (funnily enough we scrapped large numbers of those almost unused, too).

But now we will spend billions more to make the Typhoon into a deep-strike bomber, a role it will be able to carry out usefully for about three years. The odds are good that the Typhoon will never drop a bomb in combat. But it has, nonetheless, already deposited a massive obvious timebomb in the Defence budget &#8211; one which will go off at some point down the road whenever anyone at the MoD finally plucks up the courage to admit that the support costs figure has been deliberately lowballed.

It would be lovely to think that we can all forget about the Eurofighter now, that its malign effects on the whole UK defence establishment &#8211; indeed, the whole UK government, when you reflect on the history of the Saudi buy and associated events &#8211; are finally diminishing.

But it's not true. This albatross will be around our necks for many years yet.

*Bootnotes*

1That was the original order when the project kicked off, and the price has not gone down &#8211; just the numbers of jets.

2Development and procurement cost of the Raptor for 183 useable jets is stated at approximately $62bn by the US air force, putting each jet at $339m.

3To be fair, the MoD now plans to transfer some of the equipment onto newer jets: but £85m was spent fitting it to the Tranche 1s, and presumably a similar amount will go on transferring it to the later aircraft. The decision to put ground attack kit on Tranche 1 at all remains almost unbelievable, given that most of the planes will go out of service never having been flown by a pilot capable of flying ground attack missions.

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## sancho

the rafter said:


> *Eurofighter Typhoon: It's EVEN WORSE than we thought ? The Register...*


 
Ouch, that are some very bad news, especially this:



> To compensate, the Department [the MoD] has had to take parts from some of its Typhoon aircraft to make other aircraft available to fly...
> 
> ...the NAO reports that of the 70 Eurofighters the RAF currently possesses, just 42 are actually available to flying squadrons




And they aren't facing sanctions, like we did in the past, which caused the same cannibalizing of aircrafts.


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## SpArK




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## SpArK

The RAAF makes its official entrance at the Avalon airshow by displaying a Super Hornet and Classic Hornet over Melbourne. Picture: Mark Smith Source: Herald Sun​


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## GORKHALI

Eurofighter used to be my favo contender of all but with recent drama unfolded by germany and austria about arms sale ban on some states and also huge order cut from euro nations ,price rise ,Aesa radar date slipped to 2018,actually there is nothing else to discuss about eurofighter except big talks,lucritive offer ,free rides etc etc...

Rafale is all the way to fit into IAF inventory thats all...


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## MST

All this makes Rafale and F18 very strong contenders now.

EFT...i am disappointed...
Time for another voting on MMRCA.


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## jha

MST said:


> All this makes Rafale and F18 very strong contenders now.
> 
> EFT...i am disappointed...
> Time for another voting on MMRCA.


 
My vote goes to F-18 and Mig-35..


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## Skull and Bones

jha said:


> My vote goes to F-18 and *Mig-35*..


 
Mig-35 is a strict no no  

It should be Rafale in the end


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## jha

Skull and Bones said:


> Mig-35 is a strict no no
> 
> It should be Rafale in the end


 
Ok..

then my vote is for F-18 ,F-16 , Gripen and EF....


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## sancho

jha said:


> Ok..
> 
> then my vote is for F-18 ,F-16 , Gripen and EF....


 
LOL, so basically anything but not Rafale?


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## jha

sancho said:


> LOL, so basically anything but not Rafale?



oh..did i leave Rafale ...??SORRY>>


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## sancho

jha said:


> oh..did i leave Rafale ...??SORRY>>


 
Hehe, no problem buddy! I know you tend to outsiders, that normally has less chances, like the Grob 120 in the basic trainer competition. That's why I wasn't surprised when you mentioned the Mig 35, but is it realistic? 

I still think it's between Rafale and F18SH. Still have some doubts if the EF will be shortlisted for technical reasons, while Gripen won't have chances to win without industrial and political advantages.


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## Nirvana

I Think we should Go for This Bird






MoD plzz Dont opt for American fighter..


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## jha

sancho said:


> Hehe, no problem buddy! I know you tend to outsiders, that normally has less chances, like the Grob 120 in the basic trainer competition. That's why I wasn't surprised when you mentioned the Mig 35, but is it realistic?
> 
> I still think it's between Rafale and F18SH. Still have some doubts if the EF will be shortlisted for technical reasons, while Gripen won't have chances to win without industrial and political advantages.



You got me..

Its very entertaining to see Fan boys wrestle it out after just one silly and provoking comment..

BTW if 3 are shortlisted then it should be RAFALE+SH+EF..
And i hope RAFALE wins..but my vote still goes to Mig-35 or, F-16


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## sancho

jha said:


> You got me..
> 
> Its very entertaining to see Fan boys wrestle it out after just one silly and provoking comment..
> 
> BTW if 3 are shortlisted then it should be RAFALE+SH+EF..
> And i hope RAFALE wins..but my vote still goes to Mig-35 or, F-16


 
Then at least choose the Gripen, which is an outsider too, but at least with some chances to be shortlisted.


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## jha

sancho said:


> Then at least choose the Gripen, which is an outsider too, but at least with some chances to be shortlisted.


 
GRIPEN is my 3rd choice.. 

1- F-16
2. Mig-35
3.Gripen

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## palash_kol

jha said:


> GRIPEN is my 3rd choice..
> 
> 1- F-16
> 2. Mig-35
> 3.Gripen



I think its an ascending order...


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## GareebNawaz

Guys the best choice is Superhornet. We all know it is going to be shortlisted and has a tremedous chance of winning. Rafale fanboys bet ur butt out of here because no country wants rafale. NOt brazil and most likely not India. Eurofighter..the most expensive piece of sh!t i have ever seen. By 2015 UK will retire (throw away) its tranche 1 aircrafts ( that is billions od dollars wasted). Dont get me wrong it is a good plane, but mmrca deal is likely to exceed 126 and just 126 EF is worth more than the whole contract. F-16 would be a great aircraft i wouldnt mind if it gets picked. Who the fk cares if Pak operates it? But the real disadvantage is that if it coming to the end of its life cycle =(. Gripen and mig-35 are not going to be shortlisted most likely.


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## GareebNawaz

lol and rafale boasts of stealth........


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## jha

palash_kol said:


> I think its an ascending order...


 
Nope ..I really like F-16s the most..


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## luckyyy

if mmrca has to go to a twin engine then why not just buy more MKIs ?
evenif weightwise MKI belongs to a different catagory but then even amonge the 6 MMRCA contenders likes of Gripen and F-18 belongs to two different catagories...then why not just MKI , it will reduce the dogestic , traning and infrastructure expenses..

actually it not clear what IAF looking for which the MKI don't offer...???

to my understanding IAF was initially looking for a low operating cost aircraft , nost probably a single engine gripen or mirage but with the dely in mmrca and the induction of LCA this argument has faded away....so , presently what's the need of a new platform other then MKI and LCA..?


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## IND151

i think mod will order 160 GRIPEN and 40 rafale fighters.


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## SpArK

IND151 said:


> i think mod will order 160 GRIPEN and 40 rafale fighters.


 
*Make it 120G + 80 R *


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## sancho

luckyyy said:


> if mmrca has to go to a twin engine *then why not just buy more MKIs *?
> evenif weightwise MKI belongs to a different catagory but then even amonge the 6 MMRCA contenders likes of Gripen and F-18 belongs to two different catagories...then why not just MKI , it will reduce the dogestic , traning and infrastructure expenses..
> 
> actually it not clear what IAF looking for which the MKI don't offer...???
> 
> to my understanding *IAF was initially looking for a low operating cost aircraft *, nost probably a single engine gripen or mirage but with the dely in mmrca and the induction of LCA this argument has faded away....so , presently what's the need of a new platform other then MKI and LCA..?


 
I think that explains why MKI is out of question, especially when we go for another 250 heavy class FGFA anyway.

In regard to IAF needs, they initially wanted a cost-effective multi role fighter that would be easy to induct, but with the change to *M* - MRCA, some requirements had to be added. Medium weight class, AESA radar, specifically A2G weaponary (PGMs and stand off weapons), which was the reason for dedicated trials and according to the Tellis report, was directly mentioned in the RFP. Not to mention what the Air Chief said about the importance of life cycle costs, over 40 years of service.
Another point of the Tellis analysis was, that IAF tends to fighter with good aerodynamic performance and according to the chhindits.blogspot, the RFP has specific requirements on TWR and G loads. 

For MoD and IN, it could be important to have a capable carrier version, for commonality reasons and to reduce the costs by increase the numbers.

So we know pretty much what IAF is looking for, but that isn't the important point anymore, because *M* - MRCA has been increased to a competition with more in mind than just a fighter replacement!
Transfer of technology and offsets are an important point to improve the indigenous industry, strategic and political advantages are also more than important for a emerging country like India. Which means besides IAF operational / technical requirements, there are big side requirements in this competition as well.

One only has to think about all the JV, co-developments, or new subsidiaries of foreign companies, that was buil up in India now, only for the reason to fulfill the offset requirements of MMRCA, in case they win it. That would never happend in such a quantity, without such a big competition and makes clear what immense effect MMRCA has.


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## kingdurgaking

my Guess MMRCA will be mostly single engine ... considering the number of twin engine coming into IAF inventory by end of this decade... after all MMRCA is for complementing MKI... so welcome Griphen....


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## Skull and Bones

jha said:


> GRIPEN is my 3rd choice..
> 
> 1- F-16
> 2. Mig-35
> 3.Gripen


 
These are the aircrafts i'd definitely love to ignore, here goes my list 
1. Rafale 
2. F-18sh
3. EFT
4. Mig-35
5. Gripen 
6. F-16IN


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## luckyyy

kingdurgaking said:


> my Guess MMRCA will be mostly single engine ... considering the number of twin engine coming into IAF inventory by end of this decade... after all MMRCA is for complementing MKI... so welcome Griphen....


 
why even gripen , when LCA already around ?


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## GORKHALI

*Britain offers Indian Navy Eurofighters while our own carriers
go without* 

Advanced Typhoon jet fighters turned down by Britain&#8217;s defence chiefs to save money are being offered to the INDIAN navy.

It means a foreign country which receives £280million a year of UK aid could end up with a better seaborne air force.

The MoD rejected a new state-of-the art maritime version of the Typhoon by British arms manufacturer BAE Systems.

So last month BAE tried to secure sales by showing off a mock-up of the plane at the Aero India show in Bangalore.

The firm even painted Indian military insignia on the wings and showed simulated film of it landing on an Indian carrier.

Defence minister Lord Astor said: &#8220;A navalised Typhoon was rejected on grounds of cost, capability and technical challenge.&#8221; BAE said: &#8220;We told India we could make them a naval version of the Typhoon.&#8221;

The move has raised concerns and former defence minister Lord Moonie is calling for a rethink in London.

He said: &#8220;The interest being shown by the Indian navy and the exploratory work done by BAE Systems means conditions are now right to see if Typhoon could meet our needs more quickly and cheaply.&#8221;

Britain had opted for the US F35 Joint Strike Fighter but there will not be enough of them ready until 2020.

And last year&#8217;s strategic defence review scrapped Harriers, which could have filled the gap in the meantime.

The MoD ordered 232 Typhoons and a few have entered into service with the RAF. Lord Moonie said some of the 232 aircraft could now be converted for the Navy.

Shadow defence minister Kevan Jones added: &#8220;It would be ironic if India had carrier-based aircraft but we did not.&#8221;

The Government last week said UK aid to India of £280million would continue.*(Bloody scoundrels who asked you to give aid money even GOI asked you to stop your bakshis last year but you the one who wanted to continue )*

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## Paan Singh

accept it or not,super hornet will be result


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## luckyyy

Prism said:


> accept it or not,super hornet will be result


 
you think SH is cheap..?
infect it's in the same price basket of rafale and * typhoon !*


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## luckyyy

*Eurofighter Seeks India as Industrial Partner for Production, Future Developments*

Eurofighter Seeks India as Industrial Partner for Production, Future Developments | India Defence

2011-02-11 The Eurofighter Partner Companies are keen to win India as a new industrial partner for the production and further development of the world's most advanced swing-role combat aircraft. Speaking at a media conference on the occasion of Aero India 2011, *Bernhard Gerwert, CEO of Cassidian Air Systems and Chairman of the Supervisory Board of Eurofighter GmbH, outlined details of the industrial partnership offer to integrate India as a partner in the Eurofighter programme. Mr. Gerwert said: "Our ultimate objective is to win India as a key partner co-developing and co-producing future upgrades and enhancements, new sub-systems, software, etc." *

In order to phase India into the global Eurofighter Typhoon programme as a significant manufacturing and engineering partner, the Eurofighter partners pursue an ambitious industrialization strategy. Gerwert explained: "We are starting to develop the base for a comprehensive future supplier network which will plug India into the global Eurofighter supply chain. Even before the MMRCA selection, we invest in making India a new home for the Eurofighter Typhoon."

An acquisition of the Eurofighter Typhoon will create more than 20,000 high-skilled jobs in India and support the development of a self-reliant indigenous defence industry. India would gain access to a wide array of technologies from Europe's leading aerospace and defence companies avoiding over-dependence on a single source. *Enzo Casolini, CEO of Eurofighter GmbH, emphasizes: "We are committed to Transfer of Technology because we want to enable India to manufacture this advanced combat aircraft itself and we want to see the country emerge as a truly global development partner. *

Cassidian, the EADS Division for Security and Defence, is systematically implementing its industrialization strategy. The latest step was the opening of the first defence oriented engineering centre owned by a foreign company in India.* Mr. Gerwert underlined: "This proves that we are ready to transfer high value defence R&D to India."* Cassidian plans to increase the current number of 60 employees in its defence engineering centre to more than 200 by the end of 2012, with many of them working on Eurofighter related tasks. Mr. Gerwert also said: "We strongly believe that Eurofighter Typhoon is indeed the best choice for safeguarding India's autonomy and sovereignty. Its selection will elevate the strategic relationship between India and Europe to a completely new level." 

Enzo Casolini, CEO Eurofighter GmbH, said: "India and other nations in Asia are important markets for combat aircraft. All nations are watching closely how India is running this tough competition and will evaluate the final result in every detail. In the next 20 years the total world market for combat aircraft could reach a total of 800 units. We believe that Eurofighter Typhoon could potentially win orders for around 250 of these aircraft."

Eurofighter Typhoon is currently the most modern multi-role combat aircraft available on the world market and the latest technology fighter aircraft on offer for the MMRCA. Its airframe is made of over 80 % composites, incorporating new-age materials like carbon fibre composites (CFC), glass-reinforced plastic, special alloys, etc. The aircraft entered into service in 2004 and has a life span of more than 40 years ahead. Since entry-into-service, more than 260 aircraft have been delivered to six customers. The worldwide Eurofighter Typhoon fleet just recently achieved the milestone of 100,000 flying hours.

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## kingdurgaking

luckyyy said:


> why even gripen , when LCA already around ?


 
and why you want more twin engine? when future inventory is only with twin engine except LCA


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## angeldemon_007

Why you are posting a month old article??/



> why even gripen , when LCA already around ?


LCA is no doubt an achievement by HAL but its nothing in comparison to Gripen especially Gripen NG. 



> and why you want more twin engine? when future inventory is only with twin engine except LCA


I would still go for Rafale and we should request Israel to sell us Elta 2052 AESA. The number radars will be huge and hence Israel might even consider even though US revolts, also won't oppose the way it does in case of China.

If we don't go for Rafale i think the next choice should be F18 but only if US agree to give us tech. This deal is very important to US and hence we can negotiate on our terms, we can even ask for some weapons like armed uavs if we select US firms. Also if US disagree to give us tech we should definitely make sure that US knows why we cancelled their offer so that next time they will transfer the tech.

I would say then we should go for Gripen but we have to make sure that we don't face problem from the third party suppliers.


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## GareebNawaz

angeldemon_007 said:


> Why you are posting a month old article??/
> 
> 
> LCA is no doubt an achievement by HAL but its nothing in comparison to Gripen especially Gripen NG.
> 
> 
> I would still go for Rafale and we should request Israel to sell us Elta 2052 AESA. The number radars will be huge and hence Israel might even consider even though US revolts, also won't oppose the way it does in case of China.
> 
> If we don't go for Rafale i think the next choice should be F18 but only if US agree to give us tech. This deal is very important to US and hence we can negotiate on our terms, we can even ask for some weapons like armed uavs if we select US firms. Also if US disagree to give us tech we should definitely make sure that US knows why we cancelled their offer so that next time they will transfer the tech.
> 
> I would say then we should go for Gripen but we have to make sure that we don't face problem from the third party suppliers.


 
WTF? Rafale? In IAF? Aapka demaag kharab hai kya? No country really wants it, it is way to expensive, the AESA on that thing is not even fully matured, how can it boast of stealth like capabilities with that stupid mid-air refueling stick sticking out (i assume it will give more RCS). 

Superhornet is the clear victor of MMRCA-

A. Most advanced AESA radar being offered to India thourgh MMRCA
B. Has some stealthy capabilties like Internal weapons pod
C.Great range, combat proven
D. International roadmap plan being offered

That says it all. Yes Rafale has greater payload, combat radius, ferry range (2nd to EF), low MTOW. 

I dont think rafale is bad, but SH is going to win just becuase of political advantages. Doesnt matter if EF wins and we partener with 4 countries. If you are an ally/ partner of USA no one can BS or do anything about it. USA controls NATO and europe though its capitalist fists so being partnered with EU and not USA is futile and we wont gain anything in the long term. 

But if the report as true that MMRCA orders will rise to 260 then I hope we go for Rafale and SH.


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## SpArK



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## kingdurgaking

GareebNawaz said:


> WTF? Rafale? In IAF? Aapka demaag kharab hai kya? No country really wants it, it is way to expensive, the AESA on that thing is not even fully matured, how can it boast of stealth like capabilities with that stupid mid-air refueling stick sticking out (i assume it will give more RCS).
> 
> Superhornet is the clear victor of MMRCA-
> 
> A. Most advanced AESA radar being offered to India thourgh MMRCA
> B. Has some stealthy capabilties like Internal weapons pod
> C.Great range, combat proven
> D. International roadmap plan being offered
> 
> That says it all. Yes Rafale has greater payload, combat radius, ferry range (2nd to EF), low MTOW.
> 
> I dont think rafale is bad, but SH is going to win just becuase of political advantages. Doesnt matter if EF wins and we partener with 4 countries. If you are an ally/ partner of USA no one can BS or do anything about it. USA controls NATO and europe though its capitalist fists so being partnered with EU and not USA is futile and we wont gain anything in the long term.
> 
> But if the report as true that MMRCA orders will rise to 260 then I hope we go for Rafale and SH.


 


What does Rafale, SH ,EFT can perform that Griphen NG cannot perform... it can carry BVR along with good payload.. it can do mid air refuelling.. It will get AESA.. good EW.. further we can customize it in future.. as we get 100%ToT ... if possible we can port Kaveri also... what else you want?... It is a good bird for a good cost..


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## sudhir007

MMRCA Shortlist to Be Announced In April | AVIATION WEEK

The shortlist for the six contenders for India&#8217;s Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) program is to be announced in the first week of April.

Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal P.V. Naik had declared at Aero India on Feb. 10 that he was optimistic that price negotiations would start within a few weeks and a deal could be signed by September, &#8220;provided dissatisfied vendors do not put a spoke in the wheel and delay proceedings.&#8221;

Aviation Week has learned that two or three vendors will be asked to submit their offset proposals within six months. The defense ministry will negotiate offsets with the down-selected companies only. Recently, the ministry asked all MMRCA vendors to hold back on presenting their offset proposals.

According to India&#8217;s Defense Procurement Procedures, the offset proposals are not a primary criterion for the source selection, as they are compliant.

The 126-aircraft MMRCA contract is the largest defense procurement program in India and the most-watched fighter competition around the world. In the running are Mikoyan&#8217;s MiG-35, the Dassault Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon, Saab Gripen, Boeing F/A-18E/F and Lockheed Martin F-16.

Some observers here have been speculating that the Typhoon and Rafale are the leading contenders. It is not clear if a decision has been made on a third down-select vendor; sources in the defense ministry have indicated it could be Boeing.

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## SpArK

sudhir007 said:


> MMRCA Shortlist to Be Announced In April | AVIATION WEEK
> 
> The shortlist for the six contenders for India&#8217;s Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) program is to be announced in the first week of April.
> 
> Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal P.V. Naik had declared at Aero India on Feb. 10 that he was optimistic that price negotiations would start within a few weeks and a deal could be signed by September, &#8220;provided dissatisfied vendors do not put a spoke in the wheel and delay proceedings.&#8221;
> 
> Aviation Week has learned that two or three vendors will be asked to submit their offset proposals within six months. The defense ministry will negotiate offsets with the down-selected companies only. Recently, the ministry asked all MMRCA vendors to hold back on presenting their offset proposals.
> 
> According to India&#8217;s Defense Procurement Procedures, the offset proposals are not a primary criterion for the source selection, as they are compliant.
> 
> The 126-aircraft MMRCA contract is the largest defense procurement program in India and the most-watched fighter competition around the world. In the running are Mikoyan&#8217;s MiG-35, the Dassault Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon, Saab Gripen, Boeing F/A-18E/F and Lockheed Martin F-16.
> 
> Some observers here have been speculating that the Typhoon and Rafale are the leading contenders. It is not clear if a decision has been made on a third down-select vendor; sources in the defense ministry have indicated it could be Boeing.


 
Yaaa.. whatever... been hearing it so long that, it doesnt excite me anymore.. 

Let it happen first..


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## MST

angeldemon_007 said:


> Why you are posting a month old article??/
> 
> LCA is no doubt an achievement by HAL but its nothing in comparison to Gripen especially Gripen NG.


Errr...the Air Chief himself said that *Tejas will be* as good as the Gripen going forward. I am sure you won't be knowing more than him isn't it. Instead of buying gripen NG which will be available in 2017 its better to scrap MMRCA and buy 300 LCA MKII.



angeldemon_007 said:


> I would say then we should go for Gripen but we have to make sure that we don't face problem from the third party suppliers.



How many times do we need discuss that gripen is one of the most risky planes. *It has US engine*. If we buy US plane we have some bargaining chip with them. We buy Gripen we won't even have that. 

Right now Rafale and F18 are the front runners.

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## luckyyy

sudhir007 said:


> MMRCA Shortlist to Be Announced In April | AVIATION WEEK
> Aviation Week has learned that two or three vendors will be asked to submit their offset proposals within six months. The defense ministry will negotiate offsets with the down-selected companies only. Recently, the ministry asked all MMRCA vendors to hold back on presenting their offset proposals
> *According to Indias Defense Procurement Procedures, the offset proposals are not a primary criterion for the source selection, as they are compliant.*


 
couldn't get !!

i think media just speculating , there was a news few weeks back that offset proposal files goes missing from MoD , and now media speculating that offset proposals will be submitted after downselection..
just pathatic reporting by these reporters that they seem making their own news ....


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## kingdurgaking

MST said:


> Errr...the Air Chief himself said that *Tejas will be* as good as the Gripen going forward. I am sure you won't be knowing more than him isn't it. Instead of buying gripen NG which will be available in 2017 its better to scrap MMRCA and buy 300 LCA MKII.
> 
> 
> 
> How many times do we need discuss that gripen is one of the most risky planes. *It has US engine*. If we buy US plane we have some bargaining chip with them. We buy Gripen we won't even have that.
> 
> Right now Rafale and F18 are the front runners.


 
So is Tejas.... everything is risky.... if you feel Griphen is risky then F18 & F16 is the most risky... 
Rafale is a costly best and we dont need such one.. Griphen can do the job what Rafale can do

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## luckyyy

kingdurgaking said:


> So is Tejas.... everything is risky.... if you feel Griphen is risky then F18 & F16 is the most risky...
> Rafale is a costly best and we dont need such one.. Griphen can do the job what Rafale can do


 
that's what the member is saying ..
if Griphen can do the job what Rafale can do , then why not scrap the mmrca and just induct more LCA..


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## kingdurgaking

luckyyy said:


> that's what the member is saying ..
> if Griphen can do the job what Rafale can do , then why not scrap the mmrca and just induct more LCA..


 
how much LCA you can induct?? first of all MRCA came out on the wake of LCA not ready.. but when LCA showed the light at the end of the tunnel the requirements became MMRCA.. which means need for more advanced technology.. currently LCA Mk2 will be in the category of MMRCA but with still lesser weight.. but can we wait till 2018 with the squad strength dipping further to 20? doesnt seems to be good atleast for our security


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## luckyyy

it's india's own , induct as many needed..


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## kingdurgaking

luckyyy said:


> it's india's own , induct as many needed..


 
Not easy as you talk  ... Any induction needs proper planning, funds, and infrastructure to support it.. other wise you will produce the fighter with higher cost.. In addition to this if you induct 40 LCA / year ... your factories will be idle and you will incur more loss.. All this will affect economy... A decent induction will be max of 15 with the infrastructure we have... which means it will take 6 yrs to induct 90 planes.. that means after 2018 you will wait till 2025 for induction of 90 planes.. while we will have squad strength reduced to 25 and more money will be wasted on upgrading age old fighters like Jaguar, 27 , 29 and M-2000.. which doesnt make any sense.. it is better to go for new fighters with induction promised from 2014 from the time 27 will be retiring .. 

My guess if LCA MK-2 comes out before 2018 say 2016 with a competing technologies... its order will be surely increased to 250... while MMRCA will be kept at 126


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## luckyyy

kingdurgaking said:


> Not easy as you talk  ... Any induction needs proper planning, funds, and infrastructure to support it.. other wise you will produce the fighter with higher cost.. *In addition to this if you induct 40 LCA / year ... your factories will be idle *and you will incur more loss.. All this will affect economy... A decent induction will be max of 15 with the infrastructure we have... which means it will take 6 yrs to induct 90 planes.. that means after 2018 you will wait till 2025 for induction of 90 planes.. while we will have squad strength reduced to 25 and more money will be wasted on upgrading age old fighters like Jaguar, 27 , 29 and M-2000.. which doesnt make any sense.. it is better to go for new fighters with induction promised from 2014 from the time 27 will be retiring ..
> 
> My guess if LCA MK-2 comes out before 2018 say 2016 with a competing technologies... its order will be surely increased to 250... while MMRCA will be kept at 126


 
90 planes..?

i think it would be 500 in case MMRCA get scraped...


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## kingdurgaking

luckyyy said:


> 90 planes..?
> 
> i think it would be 500 in case MMRCA get scraped...


 
I gave you the reason for need for MMRCA... 500 LCA is too much.. i dont think we need that much numbers.. 250 seems to be a decent number

so logical numbers by 2040

250 FGFA
150 AMCA
272 MKI
126 MMRCA
250 LCA

... by then MKI/MMRCA and LCA MK-1 starts retiring to be replaced by AURA


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## luckyyy

kingdurgaking said:


> I gave you the reason for need for MMRCA... 500 LCA is too much.. i dont think we need that much numbers.. 250 seems to be a decent number
> 
> so logical numbers by 2040
> 
> 250 FGFA
> 150 AMCA
> 272 MKI
> 126 MMRCA
> 250 LCA
> 
> ... by then MKI/MMRCA and LCA MK-1 starts retiring to be replaced by AURA


 
so logical numbers by 2040

250 FGFA
150 AMCA
100 MKI rest 180 goes retire by 2040
000 MMRCA coz we are assuming we won't need mmrca

so , 500 LCA


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## kingdurgaking

luckyyy said:


> so logical numbers by 2040
> 
> 250 FGFA
> 150 AMCA
> 100 MKI rest 180 goes retire by 2040
> 000 MMRCA coz we are assuming we won't need mmrca
> 
> so , 500 LCA


 
hmmm what will happen to the gap between 2013-2020 when we are going to retire lot of fighters??? can you assure IAF that MK-2 will be ready by 2014? with all technologies equivalent to existing once?


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## Dash

luckyyy said:


> that's what the member is saying ..
> if Griphen can do the job what Rafale can do , then why not scrap the mmrca and just induct more LCA..


 
And how will LCA fill the gap then. The gap we have is not about less squadrons or less fighters.

The gap we have is too many different type and not a sinlge platform is matured. 
Su 30 MKI will be the top end fighter and LCA will be the low end fighter. there shoould be something in middle and those fighters will have to be multiroled to perform a large amount of job.

MRCA is just visioned to gap the below things.

1. Reduce the dependancy on too many different fighters for different roles.
2. Reduce the maintainance issues we have for so many fighters, and its the biggest issue.
3. Now LCA is not multirole, and thats the biggest problem fort IAF for not including it in larger numbers. What will they do with 300 fighters? which by far is best for interception and escort and sume point defence????...



> Errr...the Air Chief himself said that Tejas will be as good as the Gripen going forward. I am sure you won't be knowing more than him isn't it. Instead of buying gripen NG which will be available in 2017 its better to scrap MMRCA and buy 300 LCA MKII.



and you want to weaken the IAF


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## GORKHALI

*SIMPLY WOW !!!!!!!!*


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## sancho

*One month old, but interesting to look at what they say and what they really mean!*



luckyyy said:


> Eurofighter Seeks India as Industrial Partner for Production, Future Developments



An industrial partner for production, not an equal partner of the consortium like UK, or GER as many people confused it!




> Mr. Gerwert said: "Our ultimate objective is to win India as a key partner co-developing and co-producing future upgrades and enhancements, new sub-systems, software, etc."



So far they offered:

- co production of avionics in India and that they would set up the neccesary production facilities
- Naval Typhoon specially for IN, *if we fund it* (and most likely similar to Saabs offer of the Sea Gripen, this re-design will be offered as part as the ToT, but with limited use)
- 3D TVC co - development for LCA and EF, *if we fund it*
- CFTs if *we fund it*
- even AESA radar is not funded by the partners yet and they've ordered their 112 T3A fighters with the normal Captor radar, which means, if we want AESA earlier, we have *to fund at least parts of it *too
- weapons like RBS 15, Hosbo, which won't be integrated, or fully developed by the partner countries, but are on offer for us, *if we fund them*

So "co-producing future upgrades" basically means, funding those upgrades they can't afford now, or are not interested in.


If they would offered this 10 years ago and we had the choice of MKI, EF, or Rafale, I would have supported the EF without any doubt!
It is the best air superioirty fighter, offers high potential, high industrial and political value for us. Even if several things has to be developed with our money and with additional time to be available and mature, in that time it would have been worth it.
However, things are pretty different now! FGFA is on the way, maybe even AMCA, LCA is finally turning to the right directions and will be inducted alongside of MMRCAs. In this situation, adding an expensive, immature and with the financial problems of the partners also risky fighter would clearly be the wrong way to go.


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## sancho

GareebNawaz said:


> A. Most advanced AESA radar being offered to India thourgh MMRCA
> B. Has some stealthy capabilties like Internal weapons pod
> C.Great range, combat proven
> D. International roadmap plan being offered



A) The most advanced AESA on offer is not the Apg 79, but the Captor - E of the EF, because it has more T/R modules, so higher range and the swashplate design. 

C) Range is less compared to Rafale

B & D) the only features of the growth map available for India are the higher thrust engine, new MAWS and LWR. They just need additional fundings like all other options, but these can be available soon, while all other capabilities will be developmed only for the competition in Japan. That means, if Japan, or India would pay for the development of the weapon pod, we could retrofit them only during a later upgrade.




GareebNawaz said:


> SH is going to win just becuase of political advantages.



True, if it wins, then clearly because of this reason and not because of capabilities!




kingdurgaking said:


> What does Rafale, SH ,EFT can perform that Griphen NG cannot perform...


 
Anything where the heavy load limits Gripens performance by the lack of thrust (deep penetration with heavy strike weapons at long distances) and at least EF will be better in A2A as well (bigger radar, more thrust, better missile load configs).


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## GareebNawaz

sancho said:


> *A) The most advanced AESA on offer is not the Apg 79, but the Captor - E of the EF, because it has more T/R modules, so higher range and the swashplate design. *C) Range is less compared to Rafale
> 
> B & D) the only features of the growth map available for India are the higher thrust engine, new MAWS and LWR. They just need additional fundings like all other options, but these can be available soon, while all other capabilities will be developmed only for the competition in Japan. That means, if Japan, or India would pay for the development of the weapon pod, we could retrofit them only during a later upgrade.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> True, if it wins, then clearly because of this reason and not because of capabilities!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anything where the heavy load limits Gripens performance by the lack of thrust (deep penetration with heavy strike weapons at long distances) and at least EF will be better in A2A as well (bigger radar, more thrust, better missile load configs).


 
Most advanced radar does not mean most matured radar. Correct me if I am wrong but it is to my understanding that there is no AESA on current EF aircraft. And personally i trust the quality of American products. European products are over hyped. 

Yes I know rafale has greater range and higher payload, but maintenance costs are too high for rafale.

---------- Post added at 07:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:46 PM ----------




PANDORA said:


> *SIMPLY WOW !!!!!!!!*



Aweosme mate!!!!

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## the rafter

*IAS officer cautioned for dropping file on aircraft deal - The Times of India*

The ministry of defence has cautioned a senior IAS officer for "accidentally dropping a secret file" related to the $10.4 billion medium multi-role combat aircraft deal. 

Giving this information in a written reply to a question in the Lok Sabha on Monday, defence minister A K Antony said, "A file relating to request by vendors regarding offsets was accidentally dropped by an officer in Asiad Village where he was residing on December 21, 2010... The officer responsible has been cautioned in writing." 

Antony said the file did not contain any sensitive information and was recovered within half-an-hour. "It contained requests of some companies with regard to offsets," he said. After the file was recovered from a roadside in the area, the defence ministry and the Indian Air Force held separate inquiries into the incident. Two IAS officials, including an additional secretary-rank officer, were under the scanner after the incident.


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## the rafter

*BAE Systems faces 'debarment' from exporting US war-tech ? The Register*

US-centred but UK-headquartered arms globocorp BAE Systems may soon face serious restrictions on its operations imposed by the US government.

The Financial Times reports today that the BAE Systems plc, the London-based umbrella corporation for BAE's worldwide operations, is "braced for the imposition of strict curbs" by the US State Department as a year-long probe by State officials draws to a close.

The State Department is in charge of implementing the USA's strict controls on the export of advanced military technology, and it is responsible for ensuring that firms involved in illegal practices should not be licenced to make such exports.

Last year, following a deal with Justice Department investigators in which BAE admitted conspiracy to violate US arms-export laws and paid a $400m fine, the State Department placed certain new BAE Systems plc licences on hold and began a review of the firm's status.

Many products made, sold or assembled by BAE outside the United States nonetheless contain substantial amounts of controlled US technology - indeed almost all advanced Western-made equipment (and even some modern Russian stuff) contains kit subject to America's International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR). Examples include the Eurofighter, which cannot be sold to export customers without US clearance, and the Swedish Gripen fighters which BAE was involved in marketing to the Czech republic and Hungary.

US District of Columbia court documents supplied to the Register following the Justice investigation last year stated that:

*With respect to the lease of Gripen fighter jets to the Czech Republic and Hungary, and sales of other defense materials to other countries [our emphasis] BAE Systems caused the filing, by the applicant, of false applications for export licenses of US Munitions List defense materials and the making of false statements to the Directorate of Defense Trade Controls...*

Previously, officials at the US Defense Department had expressed disquiet over BAE's involvement in the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter stealh-warplane programme while also manufacturing combat aircraft outside the US. In a classified report which later broke in the news media, authors at the Defense Inspector-General's department wrote:

*The Government needs to be particularly vigilant of attempts by foreign-owned or -controlled companies that could benefit by acquiring critical JSF technologies. The foreign-owned parent of BAE Systems has numerous interests in aircraft development...
BAE Systems manufactures both [Eurofighter] Typhoon and the JSF aircraft components at its Samlesbury site in the United Kingdom. With contractors such as BAE Systems plc, and its subsidiaries working on competing aircraft, the US Government needs to implement effective management accountability and security controls to safeguard sensitive JSF technologies...

More specifically, DoD advanced aviation and weapons technology may not be adequately protected from unauthorized access at facilities and in computers at BAE Systems.*

The report caused a furore when it was published. BAE told the Reg at the time:

*The DoD IG explicitly found no instances of unauthorized access to classified or export control information on the JSF program. We strongly disagree with the IG's suggestion that nonetheless, such information may have been compromised in some unidentified way by unauthorized access at BAE Systems. There is no basis whatsoever for that conclusion.*

The Defense IG's office was later forced to publicly disavow the comments; but nonetheless the report served to indicate the viewpoint of some American security officials regarding BAE's unique position as the largest foreign-controlled defence contractor in the USA.

Following the ITAR conspiracy admissions by BAE last year, it now appears that the State Department may "debar" BAE Systems plc from transferring US technology to other entities (such as customers). Depending on how comprehensive this debarment is, it could exert an almost crippling effect on the company's non-US business: but the State officials have many less devastating options open to them.

In imposing the holds on licences at the beginning of the review, systems and products at war right now as well as future equipment vital to the US (for instance the JSF) were safeguarded.

&#8220;Dialogue continues and is progressing with the Department of State in order to address its concerns regarding matters arising from the [Justice] settlement," the firm tells the Financial Times.

No matter what degree of debarment is suffered by BAE Systems plc, this will not affect BAE Inc, the globocorp's US operation, which will be able to continue its lucrative work making equipment mostly for the US government. With BAE Inc unaffected, BAE Systems plc will probably be OK in the long run: the originally British company has effectively moved across the Atlantic in recent decades. Using funds garnered mainly from UK government deals BAE has made huge acquisitions in the States even as it has fired workers and closed factories in Britain.

Today, many more BAE employees are Americans working for BAE Systems Inc than Brits employed by BAE Systems plc: and more than half the group's worldwide profits come from the US company.


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## the rafter

*Murphy's Law: Why Eurofighter Gets No Respect*

March 7, 2011: Faced with more large cuts in its budget, Britain's Royal Air Force fears the worst. Over a decade of cutting corners because of similar economy moves is catching up with RAF. For example, a recent government investigation revealed that a lack of spare parts for the new Eurofighter limited the amount of time pilots could spend in the air. This, in turn, led to only eight pilots being certified as qualified to perform ground attack duties in the Eurofighter. While the Eurofighter is mainly an air-superiority ("fighter") aircraft, there is very little call for that sort of thing at the moment. Ground attack, on the other hand, is very much in demand. The RAF currently has 62 Eurofighters, an aircraft that will replace about 120 remaining Tornados.
Two years ago, Germany and Britain decided to cut back on the number of Eurofighters they will buy. Thus the final 37 Eurofighters Germany agreed to buy for its Luftwaffe (air force), will instead be offered for export. Germany would have preferred to just cancel the final 37 aircraft, but this would have resulted in over a billion dollars in cancellation fees. But the export option will hurt the Eurofighter project, as Germany will sell their 37 aircraft for whatever they can get, thus denying the Eurofighter consortium export sales.

Also in 2009, Britain decided to not take all of its third batch (or "tranche", as they like to call it in Europe) of 88 Eurofighter Typhoon fighters. This will cost Britain $2 billion in increased maintenance costs and penalties. Britain will take 40 of the fighters from the third batch, and resell another 24 to Saudi Arabia. In effect, Britain is pulling out of the Eurofighter program, and cancelling 16 of the aircraft if was to have received from the third batch. The British government believes that 184 Eurofighters will be sufficient, and that it cannot afford any more than that.

Originally, Britain planned to buy 232 (Germany was to get 180, Italy 121, and Spain 87.) Britain already has 144 Eurofighters on order from the first two batches, and will end up with 184. There are currently 260 Eurofighter Typhoon fighters in service, four years after it first entered service.

Development of the Eurofighter began in the 1980s, and the first flight took place in 1994. Each aircraft costs over $120 million, including development costs. Current estimates indicate that about 600 will eventually be built. The Typhoon is a somewhat stealthy multi-role fighter. It is fast, maneuverable, and carries a lot of weapons. It also can be used for attack missions. This 23 ton aircraft will be the principal fighter in the air forces of Britain, Spain, Germany, and Italy. The Typhoon is closer in capability to the F-15, than the F-22, and is competing with the F-35 for many export sales. The Typhoon was recently purchased by Saudi Arabia, mainly to provide protection from Iran.

But some users, like Britain and Germany, see no urgent demand for the new Eurofighter. So when it comes time to make budget cuts, spare parts for the Eurofighter, and fuel to get pilots in the air for training, are among the first things to go.

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## the rafter

I don't think Eurofighter is any longer fit for the Indian MMRCA. But in any case, posting the article below as FYI....

*BAE Systems achieves major capability milestone on Typhoon*

New Delhi, March 7 (IANS) The Eurofighter Typhoon, which is one of the six aircraft in contention for an Indian Air Force (IAF) order for 126 combat jets, has achieved a major milestone in the development of its multi-role combat capabilities with the release of a Paveway IV precision guided bomb, a BAE Systems statement said.

'The milestone was achieved when, for the first time, the avionics system was used to safely release the weapon in an hour-long test flight over the Aberporth Range in Wales,' the statement said.

'The integration of Paveway IV demonstrates a commitment to enhance and upgrade the Typhoon's capabilities in its ground attack role and forms part of the Typhoon Future Capability Upgrade,' the statement added.

Typhoon Test Pilot Nat Makepeace, who was at the controls of development aircraft IPA6, said: 'This was a successful test flight demonstrating the avionics system is able to use global positioning system (GPS) data and target information sourced from the aircraft to prepare for the release. All communication with the aircraft and safe release of the bomb went to plan.'

Paveway IV is a highly accurate, precision guided bomb capable of significantly minimising collateral damage. It is low cost and will provide Typhoon pilots with the very best technology for operations with its all-weather, day and night precision capability,' the statement said.

'The test is part of an ongoing programme to integrate Paveway IV onto the aircraft and builds on the environmental and jettison trials which have already been performed,' the statement added.

'This work further demonstrates the systems integration capabilities of the BAE Systems Typhoon team,' the statement said.

Apart from the Typhoon, the other aircraft contending for the IAF order, valued at $10.4 billion, are the Boeing F/A-18 Super Hornet, the Lockheed Martin F-16IN Super Viper, the Saab Gripen, the Dasault Rafale and the MiG-35.

Evaluation trials have been conducted in India and the country of manufacture and the evaluation reports are now being considered. A decision on the eventual winner of the contract is expected to be taken later this year.

Eighteen aircraft will be bought in a fly-away condition and the remaining will be manufactured in India by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited under a transfer of technology agreement.

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## luckyyy

sancho said:


> *One month old, but interesting to look at what they say and what they really mean!*
> 
> 
> 
> An industrial partner for production, not an equal partner of the consortium like UK, or GER as many people confused it!



Mr. Gerwert said: "Our ultimate objective is to win India as a key partner *co-developing and co-producing future upgrades* and enhancements, new sub-systems, software, etc."



sancho said:


> So "co-producing future upgrades" basically means, funding those upgrades they can't afford now, or are not interested in.


co-producing & co-developing means resources/funding sharing ...and it cost less then just going all alone or just buying off the shelf..


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## luckyyy

Dash said:


> And how will LCA fill the gap then. The gap we have is not about less squadrons or less fighters.
> 
> The gap we have is too many different type and not a sinlge platform is matured.
> Su 30 MKI will be the top end fighter and LCA will be the low end fighter. there shoould be something in middle and those fighters will have to be multiroled to perform a large amount of job.
> 
> MRCA is just visioned to gap the below things.
> 
> 1. Reduce the dependancy on too many different fighters for different roles.
> 2. Reduce the maintainance issues we have for so many fighters, and its the biggest issue.
> 3. Now LCA is not multirole, and thats the biggest problem fort IAF for not including it in larger numbers. What will they do with 300 fighters? which by far is best for interception and escort and sume point defence????...
> :


 
please update yourself ,* LCA is a multirole aircraft*


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## angeldemon_007

> WTF? Rafale? In IAF? Aapka demaag kharab hai kya? No country really wants it, it is way to expensive, the AESA on that thing is not even fully matured, how can it boast of stealth like capabilities with that stupid mid-air refueling stick sticking out (i assume it will give more RCS).


FU...It was a personal opinion just like SH is yours. I don't think we can trust US that much. I value the level of technology transfer as an important thing in the agreement, you don't value this ans its your personnel opinion. Also it is you who is assuming while many famous aerospace magazines (not indian) are telling us about the RCS of Rafale. Also SH itself is not that cheap, yes agreed its cheaper than Rafale but this cheaper SH has only aesa on its side and that to without any sufficient tech transfer and without those new features.



> Superhornet is the clear victor of MMRCA-


Its your personnel opinion, just like i had mine.



> A. Most advanced AESA radar being offered to India thourgh MMRCA


I thought F16 had most advanced aesa. Even if we consider the range, i think Russia is offering the aesa with longest range. (Please correct me if i am wrong but with proper proof).



> B. Has some stealthy capabilties like Internal weapons pod


Its not even tested on SH yet also its not coming in MMRCA contract. Its in International roadmap plan and we will have to pay for it. These new features are given to lure us by telling that we can offer you an upgrade offer in the future which LM cannot. 
Also we don't know yet that how much will this international roadmap plan will cost. It might be possible that this new SH might cost us more than F35 while not even matching the F35 capabilities. Its just like F15 silent eagle, not same as F35 but yeah it is stealthy but cost more than F35. But the question then arises why not buy F35 then ?/

Also EF and Rafale has future plans although Rafale has not declared it in public but still they are doing research.



> C.Great range, combat proven


Cannot be counted as pros as many of them has.



> D. International roadmap plan being offered


Look it is a plus point that Boeing is offering us a well defined up-gradation plan in terms of technology but man this is called marketing. Boeing is making sure a continue business for it while we need something which is best right now, not which will be best 10 years later down the line. Boeing will need time to integrate all these new features and even if they do it on time, its not on offer in actual MMRCA contract, what i mean is boeing is not offering its new SH in MMRCA contract but instead it is offering an upgrade plan for future. *Also who knows how much will this cost ?? * May be more than F35, just like in the case of F15 silent eagle.



> if possible we can port Kaveri also... what else you want?


Who said this ???/



> Errr...the Air Chief himself said that Tejas will be as good as the Gripen going forward. I am sure you won't be knowing more than him isn't it. Instead of buying gripen NG which will be available in 2017 its better to scrap MMRCA and buy 300 LCA MKII.


Sorry but i never read any article indicating that AC said this. Please, can you post such article because i think he never said anything like this ??/
Also, have you seen that poster which showed the features of LCA mk2 ?? If not just go through LCA thread or LCA mk2 thread and you will find it. Then compare those features with that of Gripen NG and then tell me how can LCA mk2 match with Gripen NG. LCA mk2 don't even have an aesa while gripen can even take off from roads just like SH. ADA's work is commendable but lets face truth LCA mk2 is still not a match for Gripen.

Also as far as i know Gripen NG also flew during MMRCA tests and it was going through Swedish Air Force Clearance test during the MMRCA trials in 2010, so the news that it will be ready in 2017 is just a misinterpretation of the fact that Swedish AF will induct them in 2017 but if we select it for our MMRCA, we will get the deliveries just like any other fighter in the contract because as far as i know there is no news about delays in induction if Gripen is selected just like Mig35 and EF (Correct me if i am wrong).



> How many times do we need discuss that gripen is one of the most risky planes. It has US engine. If we buy US plane we have some bargaining chip with them. We buy Gripen we won't even have that.


So is selecting a US fighter jet and so is going for Typhoon or Rafale or Mig 35. Look buddy, purchasing a military transport aircraft from US and stripping of its some key features infront of our eyes is a different thing but still it should have open your eyes. Also here we are talking about fighter jet and not a military transport aircraft. Stripping it of some key features later on will definitely effect the capabilities of fighter jet unlike a transport aircraft and thats why even IAF is not in favor of US fighter jets.



> there was a news few weeks back that offset proposal files goes missing from MoD , and now media speculating that offset proposals will be submitted after downselection..


So what ??/ Its offset....FYI offset is not effecting the contract, they will talk about offset after selecting the file. FYI US companies are the one who are making fun of our offset policies which got cleared from the recent deals.



> that's what the member is saying ..
> if Griphen can do the job what Rafale can do , then why not scrap the mmrca and just induct more LCA..


I agree ADA has done a good job but LCA is not suitable for this job. It said that LCA is close to Gripen but here is a thing, LCA is not meant for multi role although it can do other jobs also while Rafale and Gripen are proven multi role fighter jets.



> it's india's own , induct as many needed..


 Looking at IAF's track record, i even doubt that IAF will induct the amount they are saying they will induct. I think they will increase MMRCA number and reduce LCA because lets be fair, LCA is not a match to any contender in the MMRCA, not even mk2.



> An industrial partner for production, not an equal partner of the consortium like UK, or GER as many people confused it!


Well said. These guys are just changing the definition of offset.



> even AESA radar is not funded by the partners yet and they've ordered their 112 T3A fighters with the normal Captor radar, which means, if we want AESA earlier, we have to fund at least parts of it too


I heard aesa was finally funded in 2010.



> So "co-producing future upgrades" basically means, funding those upgrades they can't afford now, or are not interested in.


well said...



> Yes I know rafale has greater range and higher payload, but maintenance costs are too high for rafale.


How do you know, SH is different from Rafale in terms of maintenance ?/ If we would have selected F16, then i understand this because for maintenance we wouldn't have to depend on US because many countries are allowed to offer this facility but the thing is, we are not buying F16.


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## luckyyy

The Indian Air Force's Western Air Commander, Air Marshal NAK Browne, whose area of responsibility includes the northern sector with Pakistan, indicated today that the PAF JF-17 was inferior to the yet to be inducted Indian Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas. "The LCA is ahead of the JF-17 in terms of contemporary technology. It will achieve final operational capability by the end of next year. The airplane is our design, uses our software, and is fully under our control. I'm not sure what in the JF-17 is under the PAF's control.* What do you do if you don't have access to codes," he said.*

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/10/lca-far-ahead-of-jf-17-in-contemporary.html

*point to note is that he is giving a very high emphasis on codes , also LCA is very very cheap..just 30million*


The distinguished scientist said the cost of aircraft, which stood around Rs.130 crore, was expected to come down once the HAL started large-scale production of Tejas.

The country had been placed in comfortable position as far as Tejas was concerned as it was not depended upon anybody for lifecycle support, maintenance cost and others because of the indigenous technology.


http://www.thehindu.com/news/states/tamil-nadu/article1518094.ece


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## MST

Dash said:


> and you want to weaken the IAF


 
And how is that 
Are you saying that inducting LCA will weaken the IAF and inducting Gripen will make it strong?


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## kingdurgaking

angeldemon_007 said:


> I agree ADA has done a good job but LCA is not suitable for this job. It said that LCA is close to Gripen but here is a thing, LCA is not meant for multi role although it can do other jobs also while Rafale and Gripen are proven multi role fighter jets.


 
Can you define what is Multirole and how LCA lacks?


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## angeldemon_007

> Can you define what is Multirole and how LCA lacks?


Look buddy, LCA's main purpose or you can say only purpose was to take the place of Mig21 as a interceptor jets. Now if ADA calls it multi-role or even air superiority, then what can i say. Actually you can always use any fighter jet for any purpose but if that fighter jet is not made for that purpose then its performance won't be good in that field. DRDO chief even called it an air superiority fighter, what that means we can use it in place of Su30 ???


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## luckyyy

angeldemon_007 said:


> Look buddy, LCA's main purpose or you can say only purpose was to take the place of Mig21 as a interceptor jets. *Now if ADA calls it multi-role* or even air superiority, *then what can i say.* Actually you can always use any fighter jet for any purpose but if that fighter jet is not made for that purpose then its performance won't be good in that field. DRDO chief even called it an air superiority fighter, what that means we can use it in place of Su30 ???


 
what for you to say , accept it if ADA saying so..


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## shaktiman2010

luckyyy said:


> The Indian Air Force's Western Air Commander, Air Marshal NAK Browne, whose area of responsibility includes the northern sector with Pakistan, indicated today that "The LCA is ahead of the JF-17 in terms of contemporary technology. It will achieve final operational capability by the end of next year. The airplane is our design, uses our software, and is fully under our control. I'm not sure what in the JF-17 is under the PAF's control.* What do you do if you don't have access to codes," he said.*
> 
> Livefist: "LCA Far Ahead Of JF-17 In Contemporary Technology": IAF Western Commander
> 
> *point to note is that he is giving a very high emphasis on codes , also LCA is very very cheap..just 30million*
> 
> 
> The distinguished scientist said the cost of aircraft, which stood around Rs.130 crore, was expected to come down once the HAL started large-scale production of Tejas.
> 
> *The country had been placed in comfortable position as far as Tejas was concerned as it was not depended upon anybody for lifecycle support, maintenance cost and others because of the indigenous technology.*


 
Good points, he made.


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## duhastmish

Its crazy how can people compare tejas with mrca. 

its a LCA AND MCA diffrence - WEIGHT IS DIFFERENT , engine power , need and doctrine is diffrent. 

*tejas will be one good machine but lets not choose between them even ,NAVY, IAF ......dont compare them who and why would we ? 

let them both come in and there is need for both. *

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## shaktiman2010

angeldemon_007 said:


> Look buddy, *LCA's main purpose or you can say only purpose was to take the place of Mig21 as a interceptor jets.* Now if ADA calls it multi-role or even air superiority, then what can i say.


 
You are partially correct. Correct part is, LCA will replace Mig-21.

It was IAF's official requirement that LCA should be designed as 'multi-role'. That's what ADA guy has said. So, both are on same page.

And whether its air-superiority fighter or not, is quite rudimentary. LCA is the holy grail of Aerospace industry in India. That's what is going to be of highest significance for India's future as aerospace giant.


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## sancho

luckyyy said:


> co-producing & co-developing means resources/funding sharing ...and it cost less then just going all alone or just buying off the shelf..


 
Not for those parts that the partners don't want, or need, in that case co-producing and co-developing is not equal to co- funding!

For example the TVC which the partners don't want, because they are happy with the agility of the EF and don't want to fund the development and integration. So if we want it, we have to pay for it, but our industry will be integrated in the development (which is not possible in this case, because it is already developed) and parts of the production of the TVC will be diverted to our industry.
Same will be the case for the naval typhoon, possibly CFTs, or weapons that the partners don't want. AESA radar instead is not needed for the partners now, which is the reason why they don't want to fund it yet, but they will upgrade their fighters with it later. That means if we want EF with AESA, we have to pay a part of the development and can join the development (to some extend) and the production of it.

If we are realistic we know, that we can't contribute much to the developtment of upgrades, even absorbing the ToT will be a difficult issue (remember what Boeing said about HAL?) and will take time. So we mainly fund and co-produce possible upgrades of the EF, without a real co-development included.

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## sancho

shaktiman2010 said:


> You are partially correct. Correct part is, LCA will replace Mig-21.
> 
> It was IAF's official requirement that LCA should be designed as 'multi-role'. That's what ADA guy has said. So, both are on same page.
> 
> And whether its air-superiority fighter or not, is quite rudimentary. LCA is the holy grail of Aerospace industry in India. That's what is going to be of highest significance for India's future as aerospace giant.


 
Even Mig 21 Bison have some multi role capabilities, because they can use some A2G weapons. LCA is was more capable in this regard, because it can use several different A2G weapons too and even the MK1 can use targeting pods and LGBs. 
The difference to MMRCA will mainly be the numbers of weapon stations, the payload and variety of weapons to fulfill different roles and the single engine design with lower thrust will be a limiting factor of course.

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## sancho

*Some pics regarding Paveway IV integration on EF:*

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## SpArK

@sancho..

Every manufacturer except France has got 5' th gen plans including sweden.

Do you think if we go for Rafale , France would have enough funding to go for its own 5th gen, since there are no plans yet for them to acquire or built any 5th gen fighter, except that nEUROn UCAV.


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## sancho

SpArK said:


> @sancho..
> 
> Every manufacturer except France has got 5' th gen plans including sweden.
> 
> Do you think if we go for Rafale , France would have enough funding to go for its own 5th gen, since there are no plans yet for them to acquire or built any 5th gen fighter, except that nEUROn UCAV.


 
Hi Spark, we have to differ here between European countries that will develop a 5. gen fighter and manufacturers that has made some studies.
Apart from those countries that are commited to F35, the Europeans mainly aim on modern 4th gen fighters (Eurocanards) and later possibly UCAVs (2 to 3 different were under development, but could merged to 1 now). The vendors however have to do at least studies, or even tech demonstrators to develop an experience base for these NG technologies, that's EADS, SAAB and even Dassault made some studies:

*MBB Lampyridae*





*Saabs offer for S. Korean KFX fighter*





*Dassault FACE concept*






Not to mention that the Germans basically were (just like on many other high tech arms), the inventors of stealth fighters:

*Horten Ho 229*





Check these links:

:: Tecnogeek - Historia en Tecnogeek - Horten Ho 229 :: (*the national geographic videos are very interesting!*)

Stealth technologies - British, Swedish and French aviation projects and solutions

Meet the European Stealth Fighter&#8230;from 1981!


Btw, this is a stealthy Rafale concept that is rumored to be planed for the future, although it's not a real stealth fighter and more comparable to Boeings Silent Hornet:







However, Dassault is said to be developing "stealthy" changes for the Rafale, as well as for weapon pods and the weapons, or fuel tanks as well.
Europe is often seen as far behind the US in the aero, or arms field, which imo is plain wrong! The difference is simply that Europe neither wants to go for war as often as the US does, nor do they want to spend so much money on arms developments. If they would combined their financial budgets and develop aircrafts together instead of independent, they could easily compete with the US and the developments of the recent years are going that way (Tornado => EF => NH90 => NEURON...).

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## SpArK

^^^^

Brilliant info and thanks... 

And its good to know about Rafale's plan for the future with its fighter. 

Any news of Dassaults participation in AMCA programme?


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## sancho

SpArK said:


> ^^^^
> 
> Brilliant info and thanks...
> 
> And its good to know about Rafale's plan for the future with its fighter.
> 
> Any news of Dassaults participation in AMCA programme?


 

No problem, it's not officially known what way they will choose for the future Rafale (might depend on exports of course), but Dassault has started developments long ago and the French government is willing to pay for it, unlike other European governments.
No, so far I only read about Saab and Dassault possibly on AURA, but if Rafale would win and the already cleared Kaveri - Snecma engine co-development, combining all thing to one big co-development would make sense. But as you know, I prefer FGFA!

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## kingdurgaking

angeldemon_007 said:


> Look buddy, LCA's main purpose or you can say only purpose was to take the place of Mig21 as a interceptor jets. Now if ADA calls it multi-role or even air superiority, then what can i say. Actually you can always use any fighter jet for any purpose but if that fighter jet is not made for that purpose then its performance won't be good in that field. DRDO chief even called it an air superiority fighter, what that means we can use it in place of Su30 ???


 
Thats the main thing man.. First of all have a clear view what is a multirole fighter and see if LCA has it.... dont go by once words... 
secondly comparing MKI and LCA is not a ideal one.. one is from a matured product from a company having several decade of exp and other is a newbie product.. If LCA is able to perform half of all what MKI does it is a real damn good product....


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## SpArK

sancho said:


> Hi Spark, we have to differ here between European countries that will develop a 5. gen fighter and manufacturers that has made some studies.
> Apart from those countries that are commited to F35, the Europeans mainly aim on modern 4th gen fighters (Eurocanards) and later possibly UCAVs (2 to 3 different were under development, but could merged to 1 now). The vendors however have to do at least studies, or even tech demonstrators to develop an experience base for these NG technologies, that's EADS, SAAB and even Dassault made some studies:
> 
> *MBB Lampyridae*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Saabs offer for S. Korean KFX fighter*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Dassault FACE concept*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not to mention that the Germans basically were (just like on many other high tech arms), the inventors of stealth fighters:
> 
> *Horten Ho 229*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Check these links:
> 
> :: Tecnogeek - Historia en Tecnogeek - Horten Ho 229 :: (*the national geographic videos are very interesting!*)
> 
> Stealth technologies - British, Swedish and French aviation projects and solutions
> 
> Meet the European Stealth Fighterfrom 1981!
> 
> 
> Btw, this is a stealthy Rafale concept that is rumored to be planed for the future, although it's not a real stealth fighter and more comparable to Boeings Silent Hornet:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> However, Dassault is said to be developing "stealthy" changes for the Rafale, as well as for weapon pods and the weapons, or fuel tanks as well.
> Europe is often seen as far behind the US in the aero, or arms field, which imo is plain wrong! The difference is simply that Europe neither wants to go for war as often as the US does, nor do they want to spend so much money on arms developments. If they would combined their financial budgets and develop aircrafts together instead of independent, they could easily compete with the US and the developments of the recent years are going that way (Tornado => EF => NH90 => NEURON...).


 
I have found the link

Stealth technologies - British, Swedish and French aviation projects and solutions

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## angeldemon_007

@ Sancho
Thanx for the information. But i think all these plans are just under studies. Just as you said Europeans are going with 4++ gen fighter and they have no plans to produce a fifth gen fighter. They will skip a generation because of the economic conditions. 
Also i think its good that Saab has done some research in 5th gen fighter jets because they are also giving consultations in our AMCA project.
I am sure that Dassault will also be able to give us future up-gradation plan like Boeing if they have done research in that field.



> Any news of Dassaults participation in AMCA programme?


I know this question was meant for Sancho but i would like to add that neither Indian govt. nor Dassault have contacted each other in this field. Also looking at the high development cost of Rafale i seriously doubt that France will join us in AMCA unless we pay most of the development cost.
Dassault have indicated that they might help in AURA if GOI ask for it but we cannot be part of NEURON project.



> Thats the main thing man.. First of all have a clear view what is a multirole fighter and see if LCA has it.... dont go by once words...


Kya yaar....What did Sancho said. I will say again, LCA can do all the operations which a MMRCA fighter can do but not with the same level of success as those fighters because LCA is not meant for this purpose.



> It was IAF's official requirement that LCA should be designed as 'multi-role'. That's what ADA guy has said. So, both are on same page.


First of all brush up your knowledge. LCA was meant for interceptor role because IAF wanted to replace their Mig21 fleet and hence they needed a fighter for that role. LCA was never a multi role fighter nor a air-Superiority fighter but yeah it can do that job but not so well as the job done by the fighters meant for that role. Its similar to like EF cannot do the same job SH in ground attack while SH cannot do the same job as EF in air to air combat. I hope its clear to you guys. I am going to search for a definition for multi role so as to please you. I know what is multi role and i hope you get my point.

Also nobody is on the same page, not IAF and neither IN but due to government pressure they are buying but no other aircraft producing nation practice this kind of thing, that their forces are forced to to induct lower quality product since it is indigenous. 

ADA has come a long way and now they are closing on to the technological gap with rest of the world but this is just the beginning and no the end. Just look at Russia and see how many versions of Su27 and Mig 29 they have produced before reaching the Pak Fa and important thing is not everyone of them is inducted in their force.

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## luckyyy

sancho said:


> Not for those parts that the partners don't want, or need, in that case co-producing and co-developing is not equal to co- funding!
> 
> For example the TVC which the partners don't want, because they are happy with the agility of the EF and don't want to fund the development and integration. So if we want it, we have to pay for it, but our industry will be integrated in the development (which is not possible in this case, because it is already developed) and parts of the production of the TVC will be diverted to our industry.
> Same will be the case for the naval typhoon, possibly CFTs, or weapons that the partners don't want. AESA radar instead is not needed for the partners now, which is the reason why they don't want to fund it yet, but they will upgrade their fighters with it later. That means if we want EF with AESA, we have to pay a part of the development and can join the development (to some extend) and the production of it.
> 
> If we are realistic we know, that we can't contribute much to the developtment of upgrades, even absorbing the ToT will be a difficult issue (remember what Boeing said about HAL?) and will take time. So we mainly fund and co-produce possible upgrades of the EF, without a real co-development included.


 

co-producing and co-developing means co- funding!..that's my defination

you may have your own..


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## Bang Galore

*French firm Dassault figures in complaint against IAF officer*
*Deeper conspiracy in Aero India&#8217;s bribe-for-display case?*
_Chandan Nandy and Chethan Kumar, Bangalore, March 8, DHNS:_

An Indian Air Force (IAF) officer who allegedly took bribes from one or more foreign aircraft companies to provide them favourable positions at last month's Aero India 2011 could be the prey in a conspiracy to oust a European firm in the race to bag the multi-billion dollar medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA).

Investigations by Deccan Herald indicate that the name of P V Rao, a representative of French Dassault Systemes, manufacturer of the Rafael fighter aircraft, which is one of the planes being considered by the Indian establishment for the MMRCA, emerged in the bribes-for-display scandal involving Wing Commander A K Thakur against whom the IAF has initiated a Court of Inquiry (CoI) here.

Wg Cdr Thakur allegedly took Rs 20,000 from Rao to give the Rafael a favourable position on the static display area at Yelahanka airbase where the Aero India 2011 show was conducted. When contacted, Rao said: &#8220;An inquiry is on and I will make no comments at this point. Let the inquiry be over and only then will I make any comment.&#8221;

According to top defence sources familiar with the complaint against Wg Cdr Thakur, neither Rao nor any other Dassault representative complained against the errant officer either with the IAF top brass in Delhi or in Bangalore.

The sources said senior IAF officers in Yelahanka received a "verbal" complaint from an official of the Department of Defence Production and Supplies, saying that Wg Cdr Thakur had taken a bribe of Rs 20,000 from Rao. Incidentally, officials belonging to the Defence Exhibitions Organisation (DEO), which is under the Department of Defence Production and Supplies, had set the trap on Wg Cdr Thakur, as reported by Deccan Herald on March 6.

In this context sources said that Wg Cdr Thakur could only have come under the scanner if had taken bribes in the days before he was actually caught. "There are blacksheep in every organisation. The sources said that Wg Cdr was not senior enough in the hierarchy to make any huge difference to foreign vendors at the static display area. Besides, they said, decisions on placement of individual vendors would have been taken by the MoD at least a month in advance. However, due action in accordance with the IAF's procedures are on and he will be punished if there is sufficient evidence against him," a top defence official requesting anonymity told Deccan Herald.

On the day the complaint was lodged against Wg Cdr Thakur by the Assistant Provost Marshal, a joint secretary rank officer of the Department of Defence Production and Supplies, Satyajeet Rajan, was present. When Deccan Herald asked department's secretary Raj Kumar Singh whether Wg Cdr Thakur was a victim of a more sinister move, he refused to comment, saying only that the MoD spokesman would respond to all queries. The New Delhi-based spokesman, when contacted over phone, said he has "not been given a brief" by the ministry on this issue.

*However, knowledgeable sources in the MoD suspect while Wg Cdr Thakur did accept the bribe, there could be a move afoot to push the French company out of the race by throwing in its name in the scandal that has hit the IAF and thereby scuttle its chances of bagging the ambitious multi-billion dollar contract that six foreign companies are vying for.*

Deeper conspiracy in Aero India&#8217;s bribe-for-display case?


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## MST

Bang Galore said:


> *Wg Cdr Thakur allegedly took Rs 20,000* from Rao to give the Rafael a favourable position on the static display area at Yelahanka airbase where the Aero India 2011 show was conducted.



What the hell. Hasn't 6th Pay commission reached this guy that he is risking his career for Rs 20,000. Either a zero or two is missing in this amount or this is all a set up.


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## kingdurgaking

self delete


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## Tija

Hi,
I am new to this forum but i following this thread around one year or so.

I got this from strategypage if it's true then it's better to go for F-18SH or EF .

The single biggest issue with the Rafale, and the common thread throughout most of its major design flaws, is that its design team simply lacked sufficient vision of where the future of fighter aviation was heading. Throughout the Rafale's design process its designers chose to go with incremental improvements rather than generational leaps in technology. The Rafale was intended to catch up to, rather than leap ahead of, aircraft that were designed years earlier such as the F-16 and Mig-29. The end result is a somewhat refined, but badly overpriced aircraft that has struggled to even compete with the aircraft it was designed to match, and utterly lacks the potential to compete with newer designs.

The most obvious area where this lack of vision is displayed is in the Rafale's overall layout and its notable lack of signature reduction design features. The Rafale exhibits numerous features that would simply never be incorporated into any design intended to have a reduced RCS, including its prominent intakes, a huge vertical stabilizer, canards, a non-retractable refueling probe, and numerous other probes, protrusions, and other serious RCS offenders. What does this mean? Late in the Rafale's design process its engineers realized that they had failed to anticipate the key role RCS reduction would play in future designs and scambled to find ways to reduce the Rafale's RCS. With minimal experience with RCS reduction and an airframe that was already too far along in its design to be fixed, the end result was of course disappointing. Shaping is the single most important consideration in RCS reduction and the Rafale has too many major flaws to ever be considered stealthy. RAM coatings and last minute saw-tooth edge features are at best minimally effective on an aircraft that is otherwise designed all wrong from the start.

Not only that, but the Rafale's maneuverability proved to be disappointing, comparable to, but only marginally better than that already offered by earlier 4th generation designs and noticably lacking in comparison to its bigger brother, the Eurofighter. As the US/Israel found with the Lavi design, the improvement in aerodynamic performance available with such a design was insufficient to justfy the cost of creating an entire new airframe and a generational leap in performance would require a new approach.

Like its airframe, the Rafale's pit and interfaces sought to close the gap with earlier 4th generation designs. Drawing its inspiration from the US, the Rafale design team sought to replicate the hands on throttle and stick interface the US had adopted by the time the Rafale entered its design phase. While the Rafale was largely successful in matching the interfaces seen in US fighters in the early 90s, its designers failed to see the direction future designs were heading. Today the Rafale's pit and human interface are at best mediocre in comparison to those found in other aircraft in production. It lacks a helmet mounted site, a serious flaw in a WVR fight, and numerous other advanced features such as the Super Hornet's fully decoupled interfaces. Most critically, the Rafale's man machine interface lacks the defining features of a 5th generation design, such as advanced sensor fusion and sophisticated multi-purpose helmet mounted displays.

Probably the most famous and inexcusable design flaw in the Rafale is its unusually small and short ranged radar. While the US launched fully funded AESA programs and prepared for a generational leap in radar performance, for some reason the Rafale was designed with a PESA radar, a technological dead-end. Worse, the Rafale was simply not designed to accomodate a radar of sufficient size to operate effectively autonomously. Now, although France is working to retrofit an AESA antenna onto its PESA back-end in the Rafale, the nose of the Rafale will simply not accomodate a competitive radar. The best the Rafale can hope to do is close some of its radar performance gap with aircraft like the F-16, but will never be capable of competing with designs like the Eurofighter or Super Hornet.

Finally, one of the most critcal flaws in the Rafale's design is its widely misunderstood "Spectra" self protection jammer and RWR suite. As was done with the F-16 and Super Hornet, the Rafale design team sought to incorporate an internal self protection jammer into the Rafale to improve its survivability against radar guided threats. The major failure of Spectra was that its development cycle was far far too long and France's semiconductor and computer industry was simply incapable of providing the necessary components to create a truely cutting edge system. By the time it went from the drawing board to production, a period of over 10 years, it was barely able to match systems being offered by Israel and the United States on other 4th generation fighters. The Spectra self protection jammer simply lacks the processing power, flexibility, and diverse threat response range available on aircraft like the Super Hornet, F-16 block 60, or modern Israeli systems. Not only that, but because of nearly continual funding shortages in development, Spectra lacks now-standard features such as sophisticated towed decoys and next generation jamming waveforms that it simply lacks the processing power or antennas to produce.

Instead, what Spectra offers are relatively simplistic signals generated by its prominent but inflexible and simplistic transmitters.(Based on narrow-band, inefficient MMICs, a constraint imposed by the lack of a domestic supplier for more modern MMICs, the same issue that has plauged France's AESA program.) Spectra is perhaps the least crippling of the Rafale's flaws, because it could potentially be removed and replaced with a more modern system. Spectra tacks up a relatively large amount of space and power for what it offers, so a modern design could certainly do more with the same space and power supply, but France does not currently have the resources or certain key technologies to contemplate designing or building a system that would approach the power and flexibility of something like the F-35s EW system with its unparalled stealthy low power jamming modes.(and the ability to create incredibly powerful long range jamming modes if its AESA is used as a transmitter.)

So in summary, what went wrong? The Rafale was designed to match and compete with designs in operation in the early to mid 90s, but other design teams around the world were already moving ahead with generational leaps in stealth, electronic warfare, sensor fusion, and network centric concepts. By the time the Rafale design team recognized they had misjudged the direction of future designs, they lacked the resources and time to correct their mistakes. Now they are trying to find some way to obtain more money through exports so they can replace the Rafale's mid-90s radar, computers, jammers, etc so that they can at least keep pace with other 4th generation designs for a few years before being completely surpassed by 5th generation designs.


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## SpArK

Tija said:


> Hi,
> I am new to this forum but i following this thread around one year or so.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Probably the most famous and inexcusable design flaw in the Rafale is its unusually small and short ranged radar. While the US launched fully funded AESA programs and prepared for a generational leap in radar performance, for some reason the Rafale was designed with a PESA radar, a technological dead-end. Worse, the Rafale was simply not designed to accomodate a radar of sufficient size to operate effectively autonomously. Now, although France is working to retrofit an AESA antenna onto its PESA back-end in the Rafale, the nose of the Rafale will simply not accomodate a competitive radar. The best the Rafale can hope to do is close some of its radar performance gap with aircraft like the F-16, but will never be capable of competing with designs like the Eurofighter or Super Hornet.
> 
> Finally, one of the most critcal flaws in the Rafale's design is its widely misunderstood "Spectra" self protection jammer and RWR suite. As was done with the F-16 and Super Hornet, the Rafale design team sought to incorporate an internal self protection jammer into the Rafale to improve its survivability against radar guided threats. The major failure of Spectra was that its development cycle was far far too long and France's semiconductor and computer industry was simply incapable of providing the necessary components to create a truely cutting edge system. By the time it went from the drawing board to production, a period of over 10 years, it was barely able to match systems being offered by Israel and the United States on other 4th generation fighters. The Spectra self protection jammer simply lacks the processing power, flexibility, and diverse threat response range available on aircraft like the Super Hornet, F-16 block 60, or modern Israeli systems. Not only that, but because of nearly continual funding shortages in development, Spectra lacks now-standard features such as sophisticated towed decoys and next generation jamming waveforms that it simply lacks the processing power or antennas to produce.
> 
> Instead, what Spectra offers are relatively simplistic signals generated by its prominent but inflexible and simplistic transmitters.(Based on narrow-band, inefficient MMICs, a constraint imposed by the lack of a domestic supplier for more modern MMICs, the same issue that has plauged France's AESA program.) Spectra is perhaps the least crippling of the Rafale's flaws, because it could potentially be removed and replaced with a more modern system. Spectra tacks up a relatively large amount of space and power for what it offers, so a modern design could certainly do more with the same space and power supply, but France does not currently have the resources or certain key technologies to contemplate designing or building a system that would approach the power and flexibility of something like the F-35s EW system with its unparalled stealthy low power jamming modes.(and the ability to create incredibly powerful long range jamming modes if its AESA is used as a transmitter.)
> 
> So in summary, what went wrong? The Rafale was designed to match and compete with designs in operation in the early to mid 90s, but other design teams around the world were already moving ahead with generational leaps in stealth, electronic warfare, sensor fusion, and network centric concepts. so that they can at least keep pace with other 4th generation designs for a few years before being completely surpassed by 5th generation designs.


 
Thats a 2 year old report from strategy page.. Go through the threads.. There are plenty of answers lying around.


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## kingdurgaking

SpArK said:


> Thats a 2 year old report from strategy page.. Go through the threads.. There are plenty of answers lying around.


 
But still hold goods.. with AESA atleast... they are not that much capable with just 850 modules ... while i am not sure about others.. while RCS with fixed refueling probe is still vital..


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## True Lies

NEW DELHI: The United States today hoped India will pick one of the two American aircraft in the multi-billion dollar combat aircraft deal, saying it will be an "important indicator" of where the strategic relations between the two sides go in future. 

"Hopefully the next step will be as India evaluates in the Medium-Multi Role Combat aircraft deal... that they will decide to pick one of the US aircraft the F-16 Super Viper ( Lockheed Martin )) or the F/A-18 ( Boeing ))," US Ambassador to India Timothy J Roemer said. 

"This becomes the very logical next step in the relationship. This will be a very important indicator of where this relationship goes in the 21st century," the US Ambassador said while addressing a conference here on 'America and Asia-Perspectives on Peace, Security and Development'. 

Russian MiG-35, French Dassault Rafale, European Eurofighter Typhoon and Swedish Gripen are in the fray for the USD 11 billion deal. 

The Ambassador said as India goes to down select the companies in the race in the next couple of months, "We look at the finalisation of the civil nuclear agreement and the issuing of the A-10 licenses and India signing the Convention on Supplementary Compensation for Nuclear Damage (CSC)". 

Asked if the ties between the two sides would suffer if India selects any other aircraft, Roemer said, "Across the board, US is elevating, raising India to a global partner. The M-MRCA seems to be a logical next step in building this strategic partnership on the defence side." 

"We are optimistic and want to build strategic ties with India and M-MRCA is going to be a very vigorous competition. But we are confident and hopeful," he added. 

The US Ambassador said "I am an optimist about what President Barack Obama announced when he was here and announced support for India for permanent UN Security Council membership, took India off the entities designations." 

Claiming that the recently-delivered C-130J Super Hercules was "under budget", Roemer said, "In the defence world today, that's a very important factor for tight budgets."


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## sancho

MST said:


> What the hell. Hasn't 6th Pay commission reached this guy that he is risking his career for Rs 20,000. Either a zero or two is missing in this amount or this is all a set up.


 
That's what I thought at first again, but when I checked for other reports, I realised that there are no reliable reports about it so far and they all are stating different points:



> *IAF orders probe against Wing Commander for taking bribe *
> 
> ...*The French company had informed the authorities* when Thakur asked for an amount of Rs 20,000. On receiving the complaint, the defence exhibition orgainsation laid a trap and caught the officer red-handed.



IAF orders probe against Wing Commander for taking bribe | TruthDive

So Dassault complaint about it and helped to catch him?




> *Tainted IAF officer refuses to cooperate with inquiry *
> 
> ...Ministry of Defence (MoD) sources said Wing Commander A K Thakur, who was trapped by a team of officers from the Department of Defence Production and Supplies on February 12 for *accepting Rs 20,000* from a decoy, is resisting questions on the possible involvement of senior IAF officers in the latest scandal to hit the armed forces.
> 
> Wg Cdr Thakur is alleged to have taken *three lakh euro* for better positioning of aircraft belonging to some of the foreign vendors in the *static display* area of Yelahanka air base.



http://idrw.org/?p=954


In another forum someone said 20 000 Rs are not bribes, but just a tip, because that's only around 300 Euros. Three lacks ion the other side would be a totally different point, but why should a vendor pay so much just for a better position on the static display. Which leads me to the next strange point! Dassault came to Aero India only with 2 Rafales and both were used for the flight displays, while EF (a mock up) and Gripen had also versions at the static display showing possible weapon systems. So when it really was for a favourable position at the static display, how should Dassault be inolved?

Lets wait for some official statements on this issue and not these unreliable media reports.

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## sancho

Tija said:


> Hi,
> I am new to this forum but i following this thread around one year or so.
> 
> I got this from strategypage if it's true then it's better to go for F-18SH or EF.



Welcome, always good to have new members!

Regarding that report / discussion, it's not only old but the source is known for such unreliable blame games.
The fact is just the other way around, Rafale like EF was designed with high agility and maneuverability in mind, that's why they chose the delta canard design, but also with low RCS and low detecability. Both EF and Rafale (just like LCA btw) contains high ammounts of composite materials, instead of more reflecting metall parts, what alone is a slight advantage in this regard, but more important is, that the reduction of weight allows to add more RAM materials!
Both fighters (again just like LCA) has ducted intakes, which means that the reflection of radar waves of the compressor blades is reduced to a minimum if at all.
The Rafale is the only fighter with canards, that uses saw tooth designs, made by RAM materials, to scatter, or reduce the radar waves hitting them and they did the same all over the airframe. The Mig 29K of IN has similar designs around the nose, obviously to reduce the frontal RCS and while saw tooth designs was effective at the F117 and still will be used at nearly any stealth fighter as an feature to reduce the RCS, but only for Rafale it is claimed to be a bad idea? 

The fixed refuelling probe will add to the RCS of course, but you have to put it in the right context! We are not talking about stealth fighters without external loads and stealth shaped airframes here, but about 4th gen fighters, where even the wingtip missiles that many of those have, are bigger than this refuelling probe, let alone the fuel tanks. Dassault purposely went that way, because they thought the ammount of RCS reduction is not equal to the costs of developing and maintaining a retractable probe. We interestingly see the same decisions now at LCA and if I'm not wrong at J10B as well, that both seems to get fixed version.
It is debatable of course if that is a good decisions, but it's a fact that any external load will be a bigger issue in this regard, that's why the F18 Silent Hornet will never be stealthy as well, as long as it carries missiles at the wingtip stations, no matter if the other weapons will be placed in the weapon pod.
Another hint that Rafale was designed for beeing less detectable is the low IR signature and you will find several pics, or even videos comparing this on the net.

For all non 5th gen fighters, the overall size of the fighter, external loads/parts, amount of composite/RAM materials and ducted intakes are the most import points in regard to RCS during operational scenarios. The Rafale might compromise on some points, but is better on others as well, just make your own conclusion what ways more in this regard.

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## shaktiman2010

Whether its 300 euro or 3 Lakh euro, it doesn't matter. Corruption is corruption.

We should thank Dassault to taking a lead against corruption and IAF should clean its mess rather than ashaming the country more. Already, there is long history of its corrupt nexus with Russian weapon vendors, not to mention one case involved s-xual favours. That's pathetic!


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## Skull and Bones

^^^^@Sancho
That pretty much sums up the whole discussion.


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## KEETARP

Back again , just not getting enough time to keep discussion going . Anyways ..... my reply in red 



sancho said:


> So basically you don't know it exactly, especially not if any fighter could detect such signals, because that's what we are talking about. The advantages Rafale offers to complement MKI in BVR combats and passive detection features, alongside of beeing hard to detect itself, because it don't emit signals the opponent can detect gives Rafale an advantage that EF don't have.
> 
> Still dosen't change the fact -
> You claimed Rafale is fully passive while simple laws of physics will explain it can't be ( to update your A2A missile seeker via data link you must emit) - exactly why F22 is also emitting .
> Point is how low your emission's are - and whether LPI or not ??
> 
> A Bill Sweetman blog from Aviationweek - to get my point thru
> 
> F-22 and F-35 Suffer From Network Gaps | AVIATION WEEK
> 
> 
> Just like Rafales SPECTRA EWS offers advantages, that EFs DASS don't have, but it seems you still did not understand the difference, although we talked about it several times before.
> SPECTRA can detect radar signals of A2A and A2G targets with the RWR and identify them via ESM, EF can do the same, because it has similar systems (although not as capable). That means both detect a possible threat, identify it and gets a basic bearing to avoid it, this mainly adds to the situational awareness of both fighters and to the self defense capabilities, but now comes the difference of both systems!
> SPECTRA also uses interferometer antennas to geolocate the radar and gather accurate target datas. SPECTRA makes use of all these sensors, not only for enhanced situational awareness and self defense by avoiding these threats. It also use them for offensive actions, by providing these datas to FSO, or directly to weapons and engage the threats. That's why Rafale can do SEAD with AASM and SPECTRA, or why Rafale can engage passively in BVR, with MICA IR and SPECTRA. Both unique capabilities that EF and several other MMRCA contenders simply don't offer yet, or even will not have at all!
> 
> Again
> I explained before EW suite of other contenders are as good as Rafale esp F16 F18 , built for SEAD
> I explained that before also , link for my that post
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/4347-mrca-news-discussions-147.html#post996995
> 
> FALCON EDGE - BAE Systems Investor Brief - March 2002
> 
> (One of the most secretly held pieces of equipment in the new batch of block 60 F-16s seems to be the EW gear, aka Falcon Edge or IEWS (Integrated Electronic Warfare Suite).
> According to the Norhrop Grumman's Defensive Systems Division (DSD) website, Falcon Edge is "based on a revolutionary concept that leverages the latest radio frequency (RF) and digital technologies(...). Falcon Edge is comprised of two major subsystems: a passive receiver and an active jammer. Both systems utilize common technology that allows higher levels of subsystem interoperability. Falcon Edge features high sensitivity, wide-band digital receivers, and digitally based countermeasures".
> The advanced EW system is "entirely internal, as opposed to the external pods carried by USAF F-16. The system incorporates classified digital technology that warns pilots of enemy radars while simultaneously sending out countermeasure signals, and will automatically dispense chaff and/or flares to decoy enemy radar or missiles. *A significant capability is that it also provides the location of the threat emitter, rather than simply showing the direction the radar is comming from, to allow the pilot to attack it*".)



Point you are overlooking or not emphasizing - is SPECTRA's capability to use ESM to guide weapons is MICA+AASM specific . It is built around MICA IR version only . 
While its almost guaranteed few years down the line top tier BVR missile of IAF Arsenal will be either METEOR , / AIM120 . Supplemented by ASTRA ver2 
Even if Rafale is chosen meteor is sure. 
So at BVR ranges - Rafale has to turn on its RBE2 radar and use active guided Meteor missile , until you want to give advantage to your adversary flying with a 60kms range MICA only . (Now with Aim120c and sd10 in active service ). 
No matter how much your RCS in clean state is , once fully armed you wont hide from AWACS or modern AESA radars at BVR ranges.


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## SpArK

Old video.. the making

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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> That's what I thought at first again, but when I checked for other reports, I realised that there are no reliable reports about it so far and they all are stating different points:
> 
> 
> 
> IAF orders probe against Wing Commander for taking bribe | TruthDive
> 
> So Dassault complaint about it and helped to catch him?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://idrw.org/?p=954
> 
> 
> In another forum someone said 20 000 Rs are not bribes, but just a tip, because that's only around 300 Euros. Three lacks ion the other side would be a totally different point, but why should a vendor pay so much just for a better position on the static display. Which leads me to the next strange point! Dassault came to Aero India only with 2 Rafales and both were used for the flight displays, while EF (a mock up) and Gripen had also versions at the static display showing possible weapon systems. So when it really was for a favourable position at the static display, how should Dassault be inolved?
> 
> Lets wait for some official statements on this issue and not these unreliable media reports.


 
Rafale is in serious trouble... If Dassault is part of the scandal then it will be put on hold until enquiry is over which will take more than a year...


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## jha

kingdurgaking said:


> Rafale is in serious trouble... If Dassault is part of the scandal then it will be put on hold until enquiry is over which will take more than a year...


 
Infact RAFALE itself is trouble..I am all for F-16 now..


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## notorious_eagle

jha said:


> Infact RAFALE itself is trouble..*I am all for F-16 now*..



If you look at the requirements of the IAF right now, the F16 fulfils these requirements perfectly. F16 is a true multi role fighter aircraft with a record to prove its lethality for A2A and A2G roles. But given PAF's mastery of the F16, chances are that the IAF will likely go for either the Super Hornet or Rafale. I previously used to argue that the IAF would go for the Super Hornet, but reading the statements of some IAF officials its clear that they are not comfortable buying American technology because of their track record. I think the Indians will go for the Rafale, Sancho has posted some very valid arguments to support this premise.


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## dbc

PRATEEK said:


> Back again , just not getting enough time to keep discussion going . Anyways ..... my reply in red
> 
> 
> 
> Point you are overlooking or not emphasizing - is SPECTRA's capability to use ESM to guide weapons is MICA+AASM specific . It is built around MICA IR version only .
> While its almost guaranteed few years down the line top tier BVR missile of IAF Arsenal will be either METEOR , / AIM120 . Supplemented by ASTRA ver2
> Even if Rafale is chosen meteor is sure.
> So at BVR ranges - Rafale has to turn on its RBE2 radar and use active guided Meteor missile , until you want to give advantage to your adversary flying with a 60kms range MICA only . (Now with Aim120c and sd10 in active service ).
> No matter how much your RCS in clean state is , once fully armed you wont hide from AWACS or modern AESA radars at BVR ranges.


 
While we're talking about sensors the F/A-18's are currently being used in Afghanistan to detect IED(s) from the air.
I can PM you the details if interested. 



> An improvised explosive device (IED), also known as a roadside bomb, is a homemade bomb constructed and deployed in ways other than in conventional military action. It may be constructed of conventional military explosives, such as an artillery round, attached to a detonating mechanism.

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## typhoon77

> While we're talking about sensors the F/A-18's are currently being used in Afghanistan to detect IED(s) from the air.


 Didn't SAAB offer India a radar that can do that, to be used from helicopters for counter terrorism??


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## luckyyy

jha said:


> Infact RAFALE itself is trouble..I am all for F-16 now..


 
Rafale don't even fullfill the MMRCA tendor requirements..
1) low TWR <1
2) high maintanence and lifycycle cost
3) low radar range

but the point here to note is that F-16 , F-18 , Rafale and Typhoon all fall in the 100million basket , then why not buy the one that offering maximum taking the future insight....if IAF/MoD has to buy any of these four then my vote in this regard is for typhoon...otherwise Mig-35 offeres a cost effective solution at half the cost , gripen is in my view will not be selected taking LCA inview ..


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## angeldemon_007

> While we're talking about sensors the F/A-18's are currently being used in Afghanistan to detect IED(s) from the air.


But is that offered to India ??



> Didn't SAAB offer India a radar that can do that, to be used from helicopters for counter terrorism??


Yes...



> Rafale is in serious trouble... If Dassault is part of the scandal then it will be put on hold until enquiry is over which will take more than a year...


I think this might be the beginning of troubles created by the losing parties which might cause delays in MMRCA as indicated by Air Chief. I hope its solved quickly because Rafale is my favorite and i won't doubt if its IAF favorite too.


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## kingdurgaking

angeldemon_007 said:


> I think this might be the beginning of troubles created by the losing parties which might cause delays in MMRCA as indicated by Air Chief. I hope its solved quickly because Rafale is my favorite and i won't doubt if its IAF favorite too.


 
Rafale may be your favourite or IAF too but it is too costly and what does it offer compared to NG? you are talking about range and payload? it has got all what Rafale has provided... it full fills IAF base requirement which is the most necessary thing.. secondly Rafale has got a very poor AESA radar.. while NG will get a good AESA radar compared to Rafale.. mainly most important of all it is cheap both in fly away and life cycle.. further it has got all good weapons which is utmost important.. weapons is important buddy then comes the fighter..

As far as Range is considered it can surely do IFR which is a good sign and range can be increased... 
Coming to Payload most of the war time doctrine for a fighter is designated for one mission and i guess a payload of 6000 kg is more than enough for the mission.. never ever we will do carpet bombing like B2.. for that bombers are there.. so 2 BVR, 2 short range and 2 LGB's is more than enough for a mission.... 

In addition to this never ever MMRCA will be tasked for serious work.. it will be MKI while MMRCA just complements MKI by carrying payload because every IAF mission is always a formation


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## angeldemon_007

> secondly Rafale has got a very poor AESA radar





> while NG will get a good AESA radar compared to Rafale..


I am all for Gripen but it has parts from other countries like US which might cause problem later. I think this was the reason why India was insisting on agreement with the third parties also but contenders were not ready for that but later on some solution was found but nobody knows what that solution was.
Also i couldn't find this anywhere, please share some basic specs of these 2 aesa. 



> As far as Range is considered it can surely do IFR which is a good sign and range can be increased...


Look we already have Su30, if iaf select gripen then it will also do the job. I think comparing with the cost and tech transfer gripen is good. We can squeeze saab as much as we want. But only problem lies with the component which does not belongs to saab, can we get techs of those components ??/



> In addition to this never ever MMRCA will be tasked for serious work..


MMRCA has very important task. Su30 is not good in dog fight and there we will need mmrca.


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## MilSpec

angeldemon_007 said:


> MMRCA has very important task. Su30 is not good in dog fight and there we will need mmrca.


 
Su30 is not good in dog fight??? Please Enlighten


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## jha

> Su30 is not good in dog fight and there we will need mmrca



Are you sure..?? Su-30 MKI is the most agile and maneuverable Plane ever flown..


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## MilSpec

> MMRCA has very important task. Su30 is not good in dog fight and there we will need mmrca.



IMO if you are talking dog fights... there is nothing that comes close to the MKI.... as for the continent is concerned nothing comes close to it even in BVR... maybe you had a typo 

None of the MMRCA contenders can stand up to the upgraded MKI with AESA in both WVR and BVR engagements...


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## sancho

PRATEEK said:


> Back again , just not getting enough time to keep discussion going . Anyways ..... my reply in red
> 
> Again
> I explained before EW suite of other contenders are as good as Rafale esp F16 F18 , built for SEAD
> I explained that before also , link for my that post



Hehe, distracting from EFs shortfalls with F16 B60 capabilities now? 

Yes I remember and I thanked you for those infos back then, but we both also agreed on the fact that the F16 IN won't have the Northrop EWS and avionics the UAE has, but new developed versions by Raytheon, which will be the base for upgrades of older F16 in future. 

From one of your own posts:



> *Lockheed Martin plans Raytheon protection suite for F-16*
> 
> Bangalore: The race for the Indian Air Force (IAF) order for 126 combat jets just got hotter with US defence major Lockheed Martin opting *to equip its F-16IN Super Viper with electronics giant Raytheon's protection suite*, which the company described as the world's most advanced electronic warfare system.
> The two companies announced the tie-up on the sidelines of the seventh edition of the Aero India international air show that opened here on Wednesday.
> 
> *The advanced counter measures electronic system (ACES) comprises a radar-scanning receiver, a jammer and a chaff and flare dispenser, as well as a decoy that is towed behind the aircraft...*



Lockheed Martin plans Raytheon protection suite for F-16


From the official website itself:



> Raytheons Advanced Countermeasures Electronic System is a fully integrated EW suite with robust situational awareness and powerful jamming capabilities. ACES represents the most modern EW digital technology available, providing a secure electronic shield against anti-aircraft missiles and threats from enemy radars
> 
> ACES represents the most modern, all-digital internal EW suite available today. *The system features a new, all-digital, low cost, high performance RWR for dense signal environments and a new digital RF memory-based (DRFM) jammer with enhanced resource management and technique-rich capabilities.*
> 
> Built on a legacy of EW suites for the F-16, including Raytheons Advanced Self-Protection Integrated Suite (ASPIS and ASPIS II), ACES reflects the next generation of advanced EW for the F-16. Legacy efforts and core elements of ACES have proved highly effective against real threats in acceptance flight trials, combat exercises and spontaneous defense of sovereign territory. *Designed to detect, identify and counter contemporary threats* in a high density environment, the system integrates the Raytheon ALR-69A all-digital RWR with the Raytheon ALQ-187(V)2 jammer and the ALE-47 countermeasures dispenser system  offering an effective and dependable F-16 advanced countermeasures electronic self- protection system.



Raytheon Company: Advanced Countermeasures Electronic System (ACES)


Lets sum up the facts once again! SPECTRA has interferometry techs to not only detect threats, but also geolocate them. Yes, UAEs F16 B60 has similar techs, but that EWS was specially developed for them (also funded by them), not for India, or other F16 operators. F16IN has the Raytheon ACES EWS, without such locating capabilities, just like EFs DASS, or the normal F18SH (the Growler might have it, by the fact that it carries more specialised EW equipment, for example in the ESM wingtip pods) don't have it. The only other MMRCA apart from Rafale is Gripen NG that is planed to have similar techs in future, or at least available for us, but with SPECTRA beeing an operational system for nearly a decade now and still beeing improved, it should be clear which system is the best. 

If you want to admit it or not, it is more than a normal self- protection system and offers more defensive and offensive capabilities. These are unique so far and are the key to make Rafale more suited alongside MKI and LCA than any other MMRCA contender!




PRATEEK said:


> Point you are overlooking or not emphasizing - is SPECTRA's capability to use ESM to guide weapons is MICA+AASM specific . It is built around MICA IR version only .
> While its almost guaranteed few years down the line top tier BVR missile of IAF Arsenal will be either METEOR , / AIM120 . Supplemented by ASTRA ver2
> Even if Rafale is chosen meteor is sure.



Yes, Rafale will use it's AESA with METEOR, maybe even with Astra, but unlike other fighters, it will have a secondary BVR missile capability with MICA IR that no other fighter has, so if you have such a unique capability, how is that a disadvantage? 
Moreover, you still have the wrong assumption that BVR combats means only long range detection and firing missile at maximum range, which is plain wrong! Most Aim 120 shots were even at lower distances than those 60Km, because of the no escape zone and by the fact that the pilots had to identify their targets first, when no AWACS support is available. Both the no escape zone and visual identification is only possible at lower ranges than the 80, or even 100Km maximum range of Aim 120. 
That's why Meteor btw is said to be a great BVR missile, not because it offers long maximum range, but mainly because of the propulison that allows to fly at full speed for the whole range and not only at the start. That dramatically reduces the time to reach the target and reduces the no escape zone for the enemy fighter again => high kill probability!

As I said from the start, Rafale will have less AESA radar range than other fighters in the competition (while not beeing worse at all!), but they did that on purpose, because they don't wanted to rely on a single sensor only, but make full use of all sensors and weapon capabilities they have and the key to this is SPECTRA!


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## dbc

sancho said:


> Lets sum up the facts once again! SPECTRA has interferometry techs to not only detect threats, but also geolocate them. Yes, UAEs F16 B60 has similar techs, but that EWS was specially developed for them (also funded by them), not for India, or other F16 operators. F16IN has the Raytheon ACES EWS, without such locating capabilities, just like EFs DASS, or the normal F18SH (the Growler might have it, by the fact that it carries more specialised EW equipment, for example in the ESM wingtip pods) don't have it. The only other MMRCA apart from Rafale is Gripen NG that is planed to have similar techs in future, or at least available for us, but with SPECTRA beeing an operational system for nearly a decade now and still beeing improved, it should be clear which system is the best.




F/A -18 E/F has 360° geolocation capability, it is standard equipment on modern fighters.


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## sancho

> *Price talks for 126 jets to begin this month: IAF chief*
> 
> NEW DELHI: India will this month begin the price negotiation for the $10.4-billion contract for 126 combat planes for its air force to conclude the deal by July this year, Air Chief Marshal P.V. Naik said here Thursday.
> 
> "*The cost negotiation for MMRCA will begin by the end of this month. I expect the contract to be signed before I retire from service in July this year*," Naik, who interacted with the capital's women journalists, said.
> 
> India is buying 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) for which it issued tender in August 2007. The six contenders for the contract, described in defence circles as 'mother of all deals', are American majors Boeing and Lockheed Martin , Russian United Aircraft Corporation , French Dassault, European consortium EADS-Cassidian and Swedish Saab.
> 
> Boeing's F/A-18, Lockheed Martin's F-16, United Aircraft Corporation's MiG-35, Dassault's Rafale, EADS-Cassidian's Eurofighter Typhoon and Saab's Gripen are the fighter aircraft in the fray.
> 
> The chosen combat jet will be the mainstay of IAF's fighter aircraft fleet for the next 40 years. The new MMRCA will replace the IAF's existing fleet of MiG variants.



Price talks for 126 jets to begin this month: IAF chief - The Economic Times

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## SpArK



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## SpArK




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## Archie

sancho said:


> Price talks for 126 jets to begin this month: IAF chief - The Economic Times


 
There are certain errors with this article

For one mmrca will not be the Mainstay or backbone of Indian fleet , at best it would be the backbone of the ground attack fleet which currently comprises 280 fighters including Mig27 , Jaguars and Mirage 2000

Su30MKI will be the backbone of Indian airforce till atleast 2030 thanks mainly due to them being the most numerous fighters in IAF with 270 being inducted by 2015-16
Post 2030 , this role will be taken over by FGFA whose Numbers might be more than 200 in 2030 and would rise to 250-300 by 2035

Hence compared to FGFA and MKI , 126 mmrca are only meant to fill the gap or enhance ground attack capability of IAF coz both MKI and FGFA are air dominance Fighters


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## sancho

SpArK said:


>


 
IAF should invite those Thai Gripens to exercises in India, maybe with Singapores F16s as well. Good experience and also good for the relations to those countries.




Archie said:


> There are certain errors with this article
> 
> For one mmrca will not be the Mainstay or backbone of Indian fleet , at best it would be the backbone of the ground attack fleet which currently comprises 280 fighters including Mig27 , Jaguars and Mirage 2000
> 
> Su30MKI will be the backbone of Indian airforce till atleast 2030 thanks mainly due to them being the most numerous fighters in IAF with 270 being inducted by 2015-16
> Post 2030 , this role will be taken over by FGFA whose Numbers might be more than 200 in 2030 and would rise to 250-300 by 2035
> 
> Hence compared to FGFA and MKI , 126 mmrca are only meant to fill the gap or enhance ground attack capability of IAF coz both MKI and FGFA are air dominance Fighters



First of all, Mirage is not a ground attack fighter, it was just used in that role, because it is capable to do it and because the others wasn't able to do it in that time.

Secondly, there won't be any ground attack fleet in future, because the fighters will be multi role capable. LCA, MMRCA and MKI together will takeover the ground attack roles. Check one of my last post in the LCA thread, where I showed how that might be divided.

Don't underestimate the potentials of MMRCAs, an EF with AESA imo is better than the MKI in A2A and Rafale can hold pretty well against MKI in A2G. And as we know, there is a possibility that the number of MMRCAs will rise to at least 200. If that is enough to call it backbone or not, is not the important point imo, but some of them has the capability for it.


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## jha

Good News for EF fans..


*Paveway IV Integrated On Typhoon*




*A major milestone in the development of Eurofighter Typhoon&#8217;s multi-role combat capabilities has been achieved with the release of a Paveway IV precision guided bomb. The milestone was achieved when, for the first time, the avionics system was used to safely release the weapon in an hour long test flight over the Aberporth Range in Wales.
The integration of Paveway IV demonstrates a commitment to enhance and upgrade Typhoon&#8217;s capabilities in its ground attack role and forms part of the Typhoon Future Capability Upgrade.*

Typhoon Test Pilot Nat Makepeace, who was at the controls of development aircraft IPA6, said: &#8220;This was a successful test flight demonstrating the avionics system is able to use global positioning system (GPS) data and target information sourced from the aircraft to prepare for the release. All communication with the aircraft and safe release of the bomb went to plan.&#8221;

Paveway IV is a highly accurate, precision guided bomb capable of significantly minimising collateral damage. It is low cost and will provide Typhoon pilots with the very best technology for operations with its all-weather, day and night precision capability.

The test is part of an ongoing programme to integrate Paveway IV onto the aircraft and builds on the environmental and jettison trials which have already been performed.

Paveway IV is expected to be provided to the UK Ministry of Defence (MOD) early in 2012 when the RAF will start operational evaluation.

This work further demonstrates the systems integration capabilities of the BAE Systems Typhoon team. These skills are essential for the continued development of the Typhoon aircraft. The team is working closely with the MOD, the Eurofighter partner nations and Raytheon on this development programme.

Chindits: Paveway IV Integrated On Typhoon


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## SpArK

Eurofighter:  News Detail


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## jha

*Conspiracy theory? Aero India bribe episode aimed at ousting Rafael from MMRCA race, says Deccan Herald*







The Aero India bribe-for-better-display-case is getting interesting by the day. Popular South Indian daily Deccan Herald has got another interesting report today (March 9), this time linking the issue to the much-awaited MMRCA deal. It doesn't get bigger than this!


Tarmak007 -- A bold blog on Indian defence: Conspiracy theory? Aero India bribe episode aimed at ousting Rafael from MMRCA race, says Deccan Herald


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## GORKHALI

*HATE EUROFIGHTER NOW EVEN WORST CONTENDER IN MMRCA ........*


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## SpArK

*Deeper conspiracy in Aero India&#8217;s bribe-for-display case?​*Chandan Nandy and Chethan Kumar, Bangalore, March 8, DHNS:

An Indian Air Force (IAF) officer who allegedly took bribes from one or more foreign aircraft companies to provide them favourable positions at last month's Aero India 2011 could be the prey in a conspiracy* to oust a European firm in the race to bag the multi-billion dollar medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA).*

Investigations by Deccan Herald indicate that the name of P V Rao, a representative of French Dassault Systemes, manufacturer of the Rafael fighter aircraft, which is one of the planes being considered by the Indian establishment for the MMRCA, emerged in the bribes-for-display scandal involving Wing Commander A K Thakur against whom the IAF has initiated a Court of Inquiry (CoI) here.

Wg Cdr Thakur allegedly took Rs 20,000 from Rao to give the Rafael a favourable position on the static display area at Yelahanka airbase where the Aero India 2011 show was conducted. When contacted, Rao said: &#8220;An inquiry is on and I will make no comments at this point. Let the inquiry be over and only then will I make any comment.&#8221;

According to top defence sources familiar with the complaint against Wg Cdr Thakur, neither Rao nor any other Dassault representative complained against the errant officer either with the IAF top brass in Delhi or in Bangalore. 

The sources said senior IAF officers in Yelahanka received a "verbal" complaint from an official of the Department of Defence Production and Supplies, saying that Wg Cdr Thakur had taken a bribe of Rs 20,000 from Rao. Incidentally, officials belonging to the Defence Exhibitions Organisation (DEO), which is under the Department of Defence Production and Supplies, had set the trap on Wg Cdr Thakur, as reported by Deccan Herald on March 6.

In this context sources said that Wg Cdr Thakur could only have come under the scanner if had taken bribes in the days before he was actually caught. "There are blacksheep in every organisation. The sources said that Wg Cdr was not senior enough in the hierarchy to make any huge difference to foreign vendors at the static display area. Besides, they said, decisions on placement of individual vendors would have been taken by the MoD at least a month in advance. However, due action in accordance with the IAF's procedures are on and he will be punished if there is sufficient evidence against him," a top defence official requesting anonymity told Deccan Herald. 

On the day the complaint was lodged against Wg Cdr Thakur by the Assistant Provost Marshal, a joint secretary rank officer of the Department of Defence Production and Supplies, Satyajeet Rajan, was present. When Deccan Herald asked department's secretary Raj Kumar Singh whether Wg Cdr Thakur was a victim of a more sinister move, he refused to comment, saying only that the MoD spokesman would respond to all queries. The New Delhi-based spokesman, when contacted over phone, said he has "not been given a brief" by the ministry on this issue.

However, knowledgeable sources in the MoD suspect while Wg Cdr Thakur did accept the bribe, *there could be a move afoot to push the French company out of the race by throwing in its name in the scandal that has hit the IAF and thereby scuttle its chances of bagging the ambitious multi-billion dollar contract that six foreign companies are vying for.*

Deeper conspiracy in Aero Indias bribe-for-display case?


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## Paan Singh

SpArK said:


> *Deeper conspiracy in Aero India&#8217;s bribe-for-display case?​*Chandan Nandy and Chethan Kumar, Bangalore, March 8, DHNS:
> 
> An Indian Air Force (IAF) officer who allegedly took bribes from one or more foreign aircraft companies to provide them favourable positions at last month's Aero India 2011 could be the prey in a conspiracy* to oust a European firm in the race to bag the multi-billion dollar medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA).*
> 
> Investigations by Deccan Herald indicate that the name of P V Rao, a representative of French Dassault Systemes, manufacturer of the Rafael fighter aircraft, which is one of the planes being considered by the Indian establishment for the MMRCA, emerged in the bribes-for-display scandal involving Wing Commander A K Thakur against whom the IAF has initiated a Court of Inquiry (CoI) here.
> 
> Wg Cdr Thakur allegedly took Rs 20,000 from Rao to give the Rafael a favourable position on the static display area at Yelahanka airbase where the Aero India 2011 show was conducted. When contacted, Rao said: &#8220;An inquiry is on and I will make no comments at this point. Let the inquiry be over and only then will I make any comment.&#8221;
> 
> According to top defence sources familiar with the complaint against Wg Cdr Thakur, neither Rao nor any other Dassault representative complained against the errant officer either with the IAF top brass in Delhi or in Bangalore.
> 
> The sources said senior IAF officers in Yelahanka received a "verbal" complaint from an official of the Department of Defence Production and Supplies, saying that Wg Cdr Thakur had taken a bribe of Rs 20,000 from Rao. Incidentally, officials belonging to the Defence Exhibitions Organisation (DEO), which is under the Department of Defence Production and Supplies, had set the trap on Wg Cdr Thakur, as reported by Deccan Herald on March 6.
> 
> In this context sources said that Wg Cdr Thakur could only have come under the scanner if had taken bribes in the days before he was actually caught. "There are blacksheep in every organisation. The sources said that Wg Cdr was not senior enough in the hierarchy to make any huge difference to foreign vendors at the static display area. Besides, they said, decisions on placement of individual vendors would have been taken by the MoD at least a month in advance. However, due action in accordance with the IAF's procedures are on and he will be punished if there is sufficient evidence against him," a top defence official requesting anonymity told Deccan Herald.
> 
> On the day the complaint was lodged against Wg Cdr Thakur by the Assistant Provost Marshal, a joint secretary rank officer of the Department of Defence Production and Supplies, Satyajeet Rajan, was present. When Deccan Herald asked department's secretary Raj Kumar Singh whether Wg Cdr Thakur was a victim of a more sinister move, he refused to comment, saying only that the MoD spokesman would respond to all queries. The New Delhi-based spokesman, when contacted over phone, said he has "not been given a brief" by the ministry on this issue.
> 
> However, knowledgeable sources in the MoD suspect while Wg Cdr Thakur did accept the bribe, *there could be a move afoot to push the French company out of the race by throwing in its name in the scandal that has hit the IAF and thereby scuttle its chances of bagging the ambitious multi-billion dollar contract that six foreign companies are vying for.*
> 
> Deeper conspiracy in Aero India&#8217;s bribe-for-display case?


 
just for 20000 Rs,shame on them they sold themselves in low cost


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## SpArK

*4 mica IR/EM mix
2 meteor (on the rear fuselage hardpoints)
1 scalp/black shaheen cruise missile
1 AM-39 bk2 exocet anti-ship missile
3 SBU-38 Hammer INS/GPS/IIR bombs*


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## SpArK

*Rafale​*





*Air defence #1 : 3 RPL 1250L. + 4 Mica EM + 2 Mica IR*







*Interception #1 : 1 RPL 1250L. + 4 Mica EM + 2 Mica IR*








*Anti ship #1 : 2 RPL 1250L. + 1 AM39 Exocet + 4 Mica EM + 2 Mica IR*






*Close Air Support #1 : 3 RPL 1250L. + 6 GBU-12 + 1 Damocles LDP + 2 Mica EM + 2 Mica IR*






*Close Air Support #2 : 3 RPL 1250L. + 3 GBU-10 + 1 Damocles LDP + 2 Mica EM + 2 Mica IR*






*Close Air Support #1 : 3 RPL 2000L. + 6 SBU + 2 Mica EM + 2 Mica IR*







*Stand off Strike #2 : 3 RPL 2000L. + 2 Scalp/EG + 2 Mica EM + 2 Mica IR*







*Stand off Strike #1 : 2 RPL 2000L. + 1 Scalp/EG + 4 Mica EM + 2 Mica IR*​


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## GORKHALI



Reactions: Like Like:
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## jha

It seems RAFALE is not a favorite among BABUs in MoD if the conspiracy is true..


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## bhagat

*Britain in Eurofighter Talks with Indonesia: Report*


LONDON - Britain is in talks with Indonesia on the possible sale of Eurofighter Typhoon aircraft despite concerns over Jakarta's human rights record, The Times newspaper reported March 10


Indonesia informally approached Britain over the potential acquisition of up to 24 jets. The previous Labour government banned defense exports to the country in 1999 amid claims it had used British-made planes to bomb civilians.


The sale would be worth around 5 billion pounds ($8.1 billion dollars, 5.8 billion euros) in total, the paper said, but would be hugely controversial in light of current concern over the source of weapons being used against Arab rebels.

British military company BAE Systems has separately offered to upgrade Indonesia's fleet of Hawk jets, it said.

Gerald Howarth, a British defense minister, will discuss the potential sale when he attends a defense summit in Jakarta later this month, the Times said.

"I fully expect that to be the case," Howarth told the paper. "Typhoon is on their agenda. Their interest shows the extent of interest by countries around the world in what is one of the most sophisticated aircraft anywhere."

Human rights group Amnesty International accuses Indonesia of rights violations including police torture and a restricted media.

Former Prime Minister Tony Blair's Labour government blocked the sale of jets after it was claimed that Indonesia's Hawk fleet had bombed East Timor rebels.

Kaye Stearman, a spokeswoman for Campaign Against Arms Trade, told the Times: "From 1994 to 1999 Indonesia bought half of its military equipment from the U.K., backed by U.K. export credits.

"The people of Indonesia have accumulated huge debts which they are still paying off. The Hawk jets and other British-made weaponry were used by Indonesia in East Timor, West Papua and Aceh.

"With such a dreadful record, BAE and the British government should not be trying to sell more weapons to Indonesia," she added.

Eurofighters were grounded last year in several countries due to the problematic ejectors after a crash killed a Saudi pilot.

Britain in Eurofighter Talks with Indonesia: Report - Defense News

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## angeldemon_007

*$10 bn fighter aircraft deal may be signed before July: Air Force Chief*

Indicating that the $10 billion multi-role combat aircraft deal is close to getting inked, Air Chief Marshal P V Naik said today that the finalists for the contest to supply 126 new fighters to the Indian Air Force would be announced by the end of this month. He said he was &#8220;extremely hopeful&#8221; that the contract would be signed before his retirement in July.

The IAF faces a serious shortage of fighter aircraft &#8212; a bulk of the MiG series of fighters which form its backbone are set to be phased out by 2014.

&#8220;(Am) extremely hopeful it will be signed before I retire. The decks are cleared for the deal. The only question now is of signing,&#8221; he said at a function organised by the Indian Women&#8217;s Press Corps. He said the only delay now could be a bureaucratic hurdle if one of the losing contenders cries foul.

Naik confirmed that the final contenders would be short-listed by the end of this month and would be called for commercial negotiations.

All six contenders for the deal &#8212; American F16 and F/A18, French Rafale, Swedish Gripen, Russian MiG 35 and the Eurofighter &#8212; are waiting for word from the Ministry of Defence (MoD) which has almost completed the procedure of going through the flight evaluation reports.

It is learnt that the top two contenders in terms of performance are the French Rafale and the EADS Eurofighter, both of which are recently-developed twin-engined fighters. However, the MoD may choose to invite more than two fighters for the next round of commercial negotiations in which the lowest bidder would be chosen.

As per the norms, the winning candidate will be the lowest priced fighter that gets short-listed after technical evaluation. However, the final choice will be made by the Cabinet Committee on Security, which will have the discretion of taking political considerations into account before selecting a fighter.

With the $10 billion deal expected to grow to almost double the figure as the IAF will in all possibility order more than the 126 aircraft specified in the contract, participating nations have been applying diplomatic pressure on India with most visiting heads of state raising the issue at bilateral talks.

$10 bn fighter aircraft deal may be signed before July: Air Force Chief

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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> Don't underestimate the potentials of MMRCAs, an EF with AESA imo is better than the MKI in A2A and Rafale can hold pretty well against MKI in A2G. And as we know, there is a possibility that the number of MMRCAs will rise to at least 200. If that is enough to call it backbone or not, is not the important point imo, but some of them has the capability for it.


 
Are u sure MKI will be beaten by EFT and Rafale.. i doubt it?.... BVR or WVR MKI can any day survive and w.r.t Rafale in A2g are you kidding? Rafale cant carry Brahmos along with usefult payload.. while MKI can surely do.. and post super upgrade i dont know what will be its performance... it will be surely unmatched..


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## MilSpec

[Self Delete


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## Archie

kingdurgaking said:


> Are u sure MKI will be beaten by EFT and Rafale.. i doubt it?.... BVR or WVR MKI can any day survive and w.r.t Rafale in A2g are you kidding? Rafale cant carry Brahmos along with usefult payload.. while MKI can surely do.. and post super upgrade i dont know what will be its performance... it will be surely unmatched..


 
Dude , get ur facts right 
EFT is by far the best air superiority fighter available in the world apart from F22 Raptor ,it also has an RCS of under 1 compared to MKI which has about 10 sqm
While u are correct that Rafale cant carry Brahmos , but there is a cruise missile which it can carry and that is SCALP/Storm Shadow , which has a range of 250 Km and payload of 400 Kg , and unlike the Brahmos it can also carry nuclear warheads

French have even offered 120 SCALP cruise missiles as part of weapon's package 


Apart from all this Rafale is an advancement over the Mirage 2000v5 WHICH WE want our mirages to become 
as u know mirage 2000 are the best ground attack platform which we currently have

Rafale also can carry a 9500 Kg payload and has a range of 3700 Km , so it is best aircraft in mmrca , capable of deep strike mission , and compared to F/A18 Superhornet , it comes without any strings attached


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## MilSpec

Archie said:


> Dude , get ur facts right
> EFT is by far the best air superiority fighter available in the world apart from F22 Raptor ,it also has an RCS of under 1 compared to MKI which has about 10 sqm
> While u are correct that Rafale cant carry Brahmos , but there is a cruise missile which it can carry and that is SCALP/Storm Shadow , which has a range of 250 Km and payload of 400 Kg , and unlike the Brahmos it can also carry nuclear warheads
> Apart from all this Rafale is an advancement over the Mirage 2000v5 WHICH WE want our mirages to become
> as u know mirage 2000 are the best ground attack platform which we currently have
> 
> Rafale also can carry a 9500 Kg payload and has a range of 3700 Km , so it is best aircraft in mmrca , capable of deep strike mission , and compared to F/A18 Superhornet , it comes without any strings attached





MKI will get an AESA upgrade... even without it, N011 BARS is unmatched in its performance and IMO i think the western world still has no clue about the range of its performance. 
WVR dogfight EFT is toast 
BVR depends on the Radar, countermeasure.. BVR missile.. etc and ramjet R77 RVV-MD(R77M1) it still out ranges the EADS Meteor/AIM 120D. 

SU30MKI can outmaneuver EFT in WVR... also SU30 is faster than EFT... 

I dont think there is anything out there other than may be mig 35 OVT that can out maneuver SU30MKI in a dogfight...


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## kingdurgaking

Archie said:


> Dude , get ur facts right
> EFT is by far the best air superiority fighter available in the world apart from F22 Raptor ,it also has an RCS of under 1 compared to MKI which has about 10 sqm
> While u are correct that Rafale cant carry Brahmos , but there is a cruise missile which it can carry and that is SCALP/Storm Shadow , which has a range of 250 Km and payload of 400 Kg , and unlike the Brahmos it can also carry nuclear warheads
> 
> French have even offered 120 SCALP cruise missiles as part of weapon's package
> 
> 
> Apart from all this Rafale is an advancement over the Mirage 2000v5 WHICH WE want our mirages to become
> as u know mirage 2000 are the best ground attack platform which we currently have
> 
> Rafale also can carry a 9500 Kg payload and has a range of 3700 Km , so it is best aircraft in mmrca , capable of deep strike mission , and compared to F/A18 Superhornet , it comes without any strings attached


 
what do you mean by Air superiority?? It has to fire missile any way right?? What superior missile it has got compared to Archer?? MKI has several technologies like EFT to ourmanouveour missiles and ofcourse it can engage more EFT's at the same time compare to EFT engaging MKI... secondly it is a deep strike fighter.. which means it is prepared for engaging in a highly hostile situation... while cruise missile cannot be more that 300KM because of MRT that is why we are integerating Nirbhay and u know the payload of MKI?


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## angeldemon_007

> Su30 is not good in dog fight??? Please Enlighten





> Are you sure..?? Su-30 MKI is the most agile and maneuverable Plane ever flown..



What to enlighten ??/ Su30 is agile and maneuverable in its category. Its an air superiority fighter and not meant for dogfight. You guys should check out that thread of Aero India, in that a Rafale fighter said that Su30 is a fascinating machine but its too bulky and not good for dogfight. Our Rafale has very easily beaten them. The same result came in Indo-UK practice.

Read this...
Air superiority fighter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



> *These aircraft could sacrifice high maneuverability, and instead focus on remaining performance characteristics, as they presumably would never engage into dogfight with enemy fighters.*


One more thing about Air superiority fighters is that they are purchased in small numbers but we have placed orders upto 270 and HAL expects 40-42 more.

Have mki ever worked next to next with F15 during any exercise ??? I would love to see how does it perform as compared to US counterpart.


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## luckyyy

angeldemon_007 said:


> Have mki ever worked next to next with F15 during any exercise ??? I would love to see how does it perform as compared to US counterpart.


 

cope india 2004 , 2005 , 2006.........

*Cope India 2004* caused uproar inside DoD and in Washington. The IAF did not fly its top-end Su-30MKI aircrafts, instead the older un-upgraded Su-30MKs and Su-30Ks. The Cope India exercises seemed to reflect badly on the US F-15 and F-16 fighters when facing the Su-30. Rep. Duke Cunningham (R-CA) said in a Feb. 26 House Appropriations defense subcommittee hearing that U.S. F-15Cs were defeated more than 90 percent of the time in direct combat exercises against the IAF.

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## sancho

kingdurgaking said:


> Are u sure MKI will be beaten by EFT and Rafale.. i doubt it?.... BVR or WVR MKI can any day survive and w.r.t Rafale in A2g are you kidding? Rafale cant carry Brahmos along with usefult payload.. while MKI can surely do.. and post super upgrade i dont know what will be its performance... it will be surely unmatched..


 
EF in A2A is for sure more than a match for the MKI, it is lighter, offers SC with A2A loads (higher speed, better fuel consumption, lower IR signature, because of less use of the AB) has a very low RCS even with A2A weaponary (4 BVR missiles at "semi stealth" fuselage stations), the AESA will be highly capable in terms of range and area it covers, TVC is on offer as well, IRIS-T / METEOR missile combo. 

So far MKI is about to carry 1 Brahmos to the same ranges that a Rafale carries 2 Scalp and for the future it is planed that MKI should carry 3 smaller Brahmos, while Rafale should carry 3 Scalp with CFTs as well. The difference comes in the way they fulfill this role! 
MKI will try to use Brahmos from distance and at high altitude, to be in a safe distance even it will be detected (RCS) and to give Brahmos more range (recent reports said, that used from high altitudes, Brahmos range could be extended to over 400Km). The missile might be detected early, but the speed will remain it's main advantage to be not countered.
Rafale and Scalp instead have a different approch on this role, because they will use their low RCS and low level, terrain following capabilities to avoid detection and get closer to the target. One more reason why Rafale would complement MKI and why Scalp would be a cost-effective alternative to Brahmos.




Archie said:


> French have even offered 120 SCALP cruise missiles as part of weapon's package



Source?


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## shaktiman2010

American F-15, F-16 are no match to Su-30. Forget it.

Also its doubtable how stealthy F-22 is, other than marketing propaganda. American stealth effort was based on few copied concepts from Russian journals.


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## luckyyy

sancho said:


> EF in A2A is for sure more than a match for the MKI, it is lighter, offers SC with A2A loads (higher speed, better fuel consumption, lower IR signature, because of less use of the AB) has a very low RCS even with A2A weaponary (4 BVR missiles at "semi stealth" fuselage stations), the AESA will be highly capable in terms of range and area it covers, TVC is on offer as well, IRIS-T / METEOR missile combo.
> 
> So far MKI is about to carry 1 Brahmos to the same ranges that a Rafale carries 2 Scalp and for the future it is planed that MKI should carry 3 smaller Brahmos, while Rafale should carry 3 Scalp with CFTs as well. The difference comes in the way they fulfill this role!
> MKI will try to use Brahmos from distance and at high altitude, to be in a safe distance even it will be detected (RCS) and to give Brahmos more range (recent reports said, that used from high altitudes, Brahmos range could be extended to over 400Km). The missile might be detected early, but the speed will remain it's main advantage to be not countered.
> Rafale and Scalp instead have a different approch on this role, because they will use their low RCS and low level, terrain following capabilities to avoid detection and get closer to the target. One more reason why Rafale would complement MKI and why Scalp would be a cost-effective alternative to Brahmos.



Scalp been origanally 1000km but under international convention only a <300km range missiles can be exported...then what's the advantage of buying 300km Scalp when india developing it's own 1000km nirbhay..


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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> EF in A2A is for sure more than a match for the MKI, it is lighter, offers SC with A2A loads (higher speed, better fuel consumption, lower IR signature, because of less use of the AB) has a very low RCS even with A2A weaponary (4 BVR missiles at "semi stealth" fuselage stations), the AESA will be highly capable in terms of range and area it covers, TVC is on offer as well, IRIS-T / METEOR missile combo.
> 
> So far MKI is about to carry 1 Brahmos to the same ranges that a Rafale carries 2 Scalp and for the future it is planed that MKI should carry 3 smaller Brahmos, while Rafale should carry 3 Scalp with CFTs as well. The difference comes in the way they fulfill this role!
> MKI will try to use Brahmos from distance and at high altitude, to be in a safe distance even it will be detected (RCS) and to give Brahmos more range (recent reports said, that used from high altitudes, Brahmos range could be extended to over 400Km). The missile might be detected early, but the speed will remain it's main advantage to be not countered.
> Rafale and Scalp instead have a different approch on this role, because they will use their low RCS and low level, terrain following capabilities to avoid detection and get closer to the target. One more reason why Rafale would complement MKI and why Scalp would be a cost-effective alternative to Brahmos.


 
Super cruise or AB is not a factor in A2A engagement dear it is the weapon.. what remains is in how much distance MKI or EF detect eacho other and doest it have a weapon to lock at that distance.. and for WVR i guess EFT will be never a match with MKI .. it is a piece of cake.... even with BVR ranges MKI and EFT can surely outsmart each others missile.. MKI PESA radar has sure added much of detection range and tracking ranges owing to his size and power.. i am sure EFT radar never comes into this hemisphere.. MKI radar has been called mini Awacs... 

Coming to Rafale ... MKI can carry brahmos and decent payload along with.. it has a payload of atleast 14 tonnes which Rafale can never match.. and it will be programmed to carry Nirbhay...


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## sancho

kingdurgaking said:


> Super cruise or AB is not a factor in A2A engagement dear it is the weapon.. what remains is in how much distance MKI or EF detect eacho other and doest it have a weapon to lock at that distance.. and for WVR i guess EFT will be never a match with MKI



Read the notes I geve on SC and EF has better weapons, the radar will of course be very close to MKI, just like the Captor M is now, but EF has a way lower RCS, which means it detects MKI earlier and will shoot the better weapon first! 
On what basis are you arguing that MKI is better in WVR? Canards, high TWR, speed, HMS + WVR missile? EF has it all too, but is way lighter as well. If you assuming this only because of TVC, I think you are a bit overestimating it, Su 35BM should be a better match to EF in this regard. 



kingdurgaking said:


> Coming to Rafale ... MKI can carry brahmos and decent payload along with.. it has a payload of atleast 14 tonnes which Rafale can never match.. and it will be programmed to carry Nirbhay...



Where did you get that from? Flankers have an external payload of 8t!

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## localoca

shaktiman2010 said:


> American F-15, F-16 are no match to Su-30. Forget it.
> 
> Also its doubtable how stealthy F-22 is, other than marketing propaganda. American stealth effort was based on few copied concepts from Russian journals.


 ...Can you even Explain how a yestertech Mki can be compared to an F-22 in a sentence let alone in a real vis a vis comparison?...


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## angeldemon_007

> American F-15, F-16 are no match to Su-30. Forget it.
> 
> Also its doubtable how stealthy F-22 is, other than marketing propaganda. American stealth effort was based on few copied concepts from Russian journals.


Forget about their new F15 its way too good....you their latest f16s made fun of our MKIs in the last couple of exercises. MKIs were no match to their new f16s.


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## MilSpec

angeldemon_007 said:


> What to enlighten ??/ Su30 is agile and maneuverable in its category. Its an air superiority fighter and not meant for dogfight. You guys should check out that thread of Aero India, in that a Rafale fighter said that Su30 is a fascinating machine but its too bulky and not good for dogfight. Our Rafale has very easily beaten them. The same result came in Indo-UK practice.
> 
> Read this...
> Air superiority fighter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> One more thing about Air superiority fighters is that they are purchased in small numbers but we have placed orders upto 270 and HAL expects 40-42 more.
> 
> Have mki ever worked next to next with F15 during any exercise ??? I would love to see how does it perform as compared to US counterpart.


 


I would really recommend you to maybe read the entire page of that wikepedia link that you provided... just pasting a sentence out of context doesn't make your argument valid... 

your " sacrifice high maneuverability, and instead focus on remaining performance stuff " was US doctrine for F104's and F100 which got hammered by the migs in vietnam... hence topgun was concieved and then devloped highly agile . F15 as air supremacy and f16 lightweight day fighter. Primary role of F15 Eagle was to be an air supremacy fighter. SU 27 and Mig 29 were designed to outperform specifically F15 and f16 resp. 

Have a rational thought about your EFT/rafale's size advantage on MKI
Smaller aircraft is not the only criterion to better Dogfighting performance. There are parameters like Airframe structure.. Max design load...Wing Loading... Afterburner thrust... Lowspeed manuevering... Thrust vectoring...Fuel capacity..Range... Low altitude performance..etc

As far as your joint exercises goes... in gwalior.. bisons scored kills on f15's .. so should we believe f15 is inferior in dogfighting to Bison....

Exercise results depend on the scenario being simulated .. its never one on one dogfight...




> One more thing about Air superiority fighters is that they are purchased in small numbers but we have placed orders upto 270 and HAL expects 40-42 more.



Do you know how many f15's US has or how many SU27's Russia uses?? Let me tell one thing very clearly ... I have worked on Su30MKI's forsignificant yearsto inform you that, You have no clue how proud the IAF is of this aircraft.... And trust me if it was commercially feasable they would like to have 400 of these...

Sukhoi 30MKI will remain the backbone on indian Airforce... It has one of the most effective TVC systems...massive thrust engines... superb weapons loadout... Its airframe is superior to both EFT/Rafale ... In dogfights it is unmatched....


About your RCS Dillema .... Neither Euroradar captor nor RBE22AA have been deployed on your EFT/rafale...So my dear friend BARS N011M still otranges both of your champions... Even though eft/rafale will have small rcs..MKI will see first and shoot firt from a larger distance "With a better BVR MISSLE"

When EFT tranche 3 and rafale get there AESA radars... by that time i guess MKI will have Phazatron AESA upgrade.. so i dont see this advantage being tilted....


In short...MKI outmanuevers... outranges...outguns... your outstanding multirole aircrafts... 

-VM

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## luckyyy

sancho said:


> Where did you get that from? Flankers have an external payload of 8t!


 
the total weapon payload is 14t , out of which this 8t can be carried *on wings* the rest 6t will be carried within as dumb bombs ..


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## typhoon77

> Even though eft/rafale will have small rcs..MKI will see first and shoot firt from a larger distance "With a better BVR MISSLE"
> 
> When EFT tranche 3 and rafale get there AESA radars... by that time i guess MKI will have Phazatron AESA upgrade.. so i dont see this advantage being tilted....


 The current Typhoon radar, Captor-M is comparable to the Bars in terms of radar range, even though its a mech radar its still pretty impressive. Also the MKI doesn't have a better BVR missile. Yes the R-77 has greater range than the AIM- 120C which the typhoon carries but it doesn't make it better. 
When the EFT does get its AESA it will also have the METEOR which will give it an advantage over the Su-30MKI, unless it gets new missiles as well .


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## jha

angeldemon_007 said:


> Forget about their new F15 its way too good....you their latest f16s made fun of our MKIs in the last couple of exercises. MKIs were no match to their new f16s.


 
You need a lot of reading...


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## MilSpec

typhoon77 said:


> The current Typhoon radar, Captor-M is comparable to the Bars in terms of radar range, even though its a mech radar its still pretty impressive. Also the MKI doesn't have a better BVR missile. Yes the R-77 has greater range than the AIM- 120C which the typhoon carries but it doesn't make it better.
> When the EFT does get its AESA it will also have the METEOR which will give it an advantage over the Su-30MKI, unless it gets new missiles as well .



MKI will get an AESA upgrade... even without it, N011 BARS is unmatched in its performance and IMO i think the western world still has no clue about the range of its performance. 

ramjet R77 RVV-MD(R77M1) it still out ranges the EADS Meteor/AIM 120C and also maneuvers better than Aim 120C in tail chase. The jamming probability of R77M1 will also be very low... and yes Sukhoi will get the new Missile too with the Phazatron upgrade


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## MilSpec

angeldemon_007 said:


> Forget about their new F15 its way too good....you their latest f16s made fun of our MKIs in the last couple of exercises. MKIs were no match to their new f16s.


 
"*MKIs were no match to their new f16s*" I appreciate your sense of humor


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## jha

*Vendors have to provide aircrafts as per contract: IAF official*

Senior IAF official who did not wanted to be named has told idrw.org that, any Vendor who will win the multi-billion dollar MMRCA deal will have to provide aircrafts as per the contract and IAF and HAL cannot be held responsible if the vendor is not able to clear any restriction from their respective governments on any of the technology that they have agreed for in the aircraft.

Official responded when he was asked if India will sign Communication Interoperability and Security Memorandum of Agreement (CISMOA) with United States, if an American fighter is selected in the multi-billion dollar MMRCA deal, he also added that &#8220;MOD had asked and had taken advice from Indian air force on CISMOA and we have provided our suggestion on that&#8221;.

When asked if IAF will induct aircrafts if there are missing certain critical technologies like it happened with recently inducted C-130J, he responded &#8220;We all already looking out for using European and Indian devices which are missing in the aircraft (C-130J) and will source it soon but in terms of such a large number of aircrafts which will be purchased in MMRCA deal, we could ask original vendor to either provide the technology or source, test and certify it and only then deliver the aircrafts&#8221;

It seems that Indian air force have worked out a arrangement or a strategy if American fighters are selected by MOD, and have already provided their feedback on this matter, such agreement has been asked only by American government, this has put American fighters in a disadvantage position in the competition, since Indian government is not much serious in entering into such agreement with united states, which has the backing of its senior air force official .

Experts term it &#8220;classic case of who will blink first&#8221;, and India has the upper hand since it is the purchaser and with multiple vendor in the race from different countries ready to provide key Transfer of Technology, Americans either have to provide India with the technology without entering into such agreement or allow their fighter aircrafts to be fiddled with some other device manufactures, which Americans have not allowed to do to even their closest allies.

Boeing had failed to had clearance from us government and pentagon on providing consultancy service for India&#8217;s Tejas Program, this might have started alarm bells in Indian air force, officials from the air force when questioned on this matter in recently held Aero India, did agree that Americans will give them hard time in releasing TOT of key technologies like the radar which American vendors are tightlipped about.

One official also pointed out that it will be very difficult to base Russian (referring to FGFA and MKI) and American aircrafts in the same base if American crew comes to service radar and other components every now and then which will be not liked by Russia.

Vendors have to provide aircrafts as per contract: IAF official

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## DESERT FIGHTER

sandy_3126 said:


> "*MKIs were no match to their new f16s*" I appreciate your sense of humor


 
Lol yeah man.... Coz su-30 is indeed Gods gift to aviation... and so r PAK-FA and LCA.


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## rockstarIN

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Lol yeah man.... Coz su-30 is indeed Gods gift to aviation... and so r PAK-FA and LCA.


 
Trolling is not encouraged in certain value added threads, 

We are okay if an infant piss on the roadside, but not an elder one..


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## DESERT FIGHTER

rockstar said:


> Trolling is not encouraged in certain value added threads,
> 
> We are okay if an infant piss on the roadside, but not an elder one..


 
Good for u man... i was just telling the truth... look at the previous page... why the hypocrisy.


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## luckyyy

*taking a weapon load of 5000kg and internal fuel of 2500kg for single engine and 5000kg for twin engine, Thrust-to-Weight-ratio comparision of the six mmrca contenders..
*

Rafale : 
9500(empty weight)+5000(weaponload)+5000(internal fuel)=19500kg=42900 lb
22500 lbf(dry thrust)/42900=*0.524*
34000(aferburner thrust)/42900=*0.793*

Eurofighter : 
11000+5000+5000=21000kg=46191 lb
27000/46191=*0.585*
40500/46191=*0.877*

F-16IN : 
9979+5000+2500=18244kg=38450 lb
19000/38450=*0.494*
32500/38450=*0.845*

F-18 :
14552+5000+5000=24552kg=54000 lb
28000/54000=*.0518*
44000/54000=*0.814*

Gripen NG : 
7100+5000+2500=15460kg=31600 lb
14000/31600=*0.443*
22000/31600=*0.700*

MIG-35 : 
11000+5000+5000=21000kg=46200 lb
23800/46200=*0.515*
39680/46200=*0.858*

compare it to SU-30MKI on same perimeter :

18400(empty weight)+5000(internal fuel)+5000(weapon load) = 28400kg = 62480 lb
33400 lbf(total dry thrust)/62480 = *0.535*
55720 lbf(total after burner thrust)/62480 = *0.891*

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## MilSpec

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Good for u man... i was just telling the truth... look at the previous page... why the hypocrisy.


 
Care to explain "Hypocrisy"


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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> Read the notes I geve on SC and EF has better weapons, the radar will of course be very close to MKI, just like the Captor M is now, but EF has a way lower RCS, which means it detects MKI earlier and will shoot the better weapon first!
> On what basis are you arguing that MKI is better in WVR? Canards, high TWR, speed, HMS + WVR missile? EF has it all too, but is way lighter as well. If you assuming this only because of TVC, I think you are a bit overestimating it, Su 35BM should be a better match to EF in this regard.
> 
> 
> Where did you get that from? Flankers have an external payload of 8t!


 
Oke let me explain you external Payload .. though i took it from Wiki 

Empty weight: 18,400 kg
Loaded weight: 24,900 kg 
Max takeoff weight: 38,800 kg 

see the loaded weight and MTOW... it has got 15 tonn pay load capacity...

b.t.w i was asking talking about detection and firing.. what EFT weapons has so that it can fire more than 200 km? nothing.. MKI will detect EFT atleast by 100 KM and it has got archer.. the same distance it AIM or Meteor can take over now with Novotar i think it will surely eat EFT... this is what my argument on BVR... while in WVR.. you know the power plant of MKI? w.r.t to EFT it is way too huge and in WVR i dont think any Fighter RCS or Infra red will have any effect .. it is detected even F-22 will be detected and for sure MKI can carry more Infra red /WVR weapons compared to EFT .. and it can engage more EFT at the same time... so you mean to say EFT will kick of MKI.. MKI to can Kick of *more* EFT easily very easily... You forgot a basic thing.. Russians usually concentrated on agility and manouveours ... i doubt your claim on EFT..


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## MilSpec

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Lol yeah man.... Coz su-30 is indeed Gods gift to aviation... and so r PAK-FA and LCA.


 
Never said that... But when people make wrong claims and pass judgements out of extrapolated data without giving it any thought ..it pisses me off... you are entitled to your opinion .. 

Lets not make this f16 vs MKI thing


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## MilSpec

kingdurgaking said:


> Oke let me explain you external Payload .. though i took it from Wiki
> 
> Empty weight: 18,400 kg
> Loaded weight: 24,900 kg
> Max takeoff weight: 38,800 kg
> 
> see the loaded weight and MTOW... it has got 15 tonn pay load capacity...
> 
> b.t.w i was asking talking about detection and firing.. what EFT weapons has so that it can fire more than 200 km? nothing.. MKI will detect EFT atleast by 100 KM and it has got archer.. the same distance it AIM or Meteor can take over now with Novotar i think it will surely eat EFT... this is what my argument on BVR... while in WVR.. you know the power plant of MKI? w.r.t to EFT it is way too huge and in WVR i dont think any Fighter RCS or Infra red will have any effect .. it is detected even F-22 will be detected and for sure MKI can carry more Infra red /WVR weapons compared to EFT .. and it can engage more EFT at the same time... so you mean to say EFT will kick of MKI.. MKI to can Kick of *more* EFT easily very easily... You forgot a basic thing.. Russians usually concentrated on agility and manouveours ... i doubt your claim on EFT..


 
Lets not bring F22 in here...one on one MKI is good against everything but F22...


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## kingdurgaking

sandy_3126 said:


> Lets not bring F22 in here...one on one MKI is good against everything but F22...


 
I am not insane to compare a 4 gen with 5th gen  ...

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## sancho

luckyyy said:


> the total weapon payload is 14t , out of which this 8t can be carried *on wings* the rest 6t will be carried within as dumb bombs ..


 
Not really:



> *Aircraft performance*
> 
> Maximum ordnance, kg 8,000



Sukhoi Company (JSC) - Airplanes - Military Aircraft - Su-30





kingdurgaking said:


> Oke let me explain you external Payload .. though i took it from Wiki
> 
> Empty weight: 18,400 kg
> Loaded weight: 24,900 kg
> Max takeoff weight: 38,800 kg
> 
> see the loaded weight and MTOW... it has got 15 tonn pay load capacity...




That explains the wrong figure! 

The MTOW of Su 30 MK versions are 34.5t, the external payload on the 12 weapon stations 8t (which is the same for all Su 30 versions, Su 34 and Su 35). The MTOW can be increased depending on customised equipment that is integrated (canards, TVC, more internal fuel...), but the payload for the hardpoints remains the same, because it is dependent on the loads the hardpoints can carry, not what the whole fighter can carry!
Here is an example, the heaviest weapon MKI can use at the moment is KAB 1500, but it can carry only a total of 3 because only the centerline and the inner wing stations are able to carry such loads.
Lets add 4 x Kh 31 (1 under each intake and 1 each wing), so another 2400Kg and all that is left are 4 x hardpoints for AAMs (lets say 600Kg) => around 7500Kg payload!


Will add more on that later tonight, not time now, but just to make you think about it. The EF is not like an F16, just a smaller fighter, but was developed exactly to counter Russian Mig 29 and Flankers. Unlike the US, the Europeans highly focused on maneuverability for dogfights as well and the EF is the counterpart of Europe for Russian Flankers, or US F15s. High thrust, low wingloading, very good TWR, big radar, weaponload config geared on A2A, not to mention the canard design to increase maneverability! 
In all these points, the EF is far away from beeing less capable then the MKI, that lacks behind at 2 main points, weight and RCS!


More later, Cya!


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## sancho

Oh regarding conspiracies:



> *MMRCA goes hot : the Rafale team under bribery attacks*
> 
> The tension surrounding the Indian deal is increasing fast since it has been announced that the shortlist could be made public next month.
> Rumors of bribery attempts during Aero India have surfaced : Apparently, an India officer in charge of the static display tried to get money from Dassault in exchange of a better slot on the parking. Dassault complained to the Aero India authorities who set a trap to catch the man when he came to get the money. What is very odd is the amount of the bribe asked by the officer, which is ridiculous (less than $500)
> One might wonder why someone would take risks for such a small price unless, may be, it was a deliberate attempt to discredit Dassault.
> 
> A quite similar case occured during the final run of the Korean contest in 2002. The Dassault Rafale was then competing against the Boeing F-15K. After the end of the technical evaluation, the Rafale was leading the race and Dassault was suddenly accused to have bribed a Korean officer to promote the Rafale offer. It is worth noting that the bribe in question was also very low ($8,300) and eventually proved to be bogus.
> 
> It seems that the history is repeating in India and that the game is once again turning dirty. Since the begining of the MMRCA competition, the Indian authorities have insisted on the fact that bribery would not be tolerated. *In this context, one tricky mind might try to manipulate his competitors and lead them to make an illegal move that would disqualify them*..



Rafale News: MMRCA goes hot : the Rafale team under bribery attacks


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## luckyyy

sancho said:


> Not really:
> Sukhoi Company (JSC) - Airplanes - Military Aircraft - Su-30


 
8t maximum payload is for the external 12 wing stations..

but the figures also tells you about maximum internal fuel which is 9640kg , whereas if the fuel be filled at nornal levels of 5270kg..this difference can be utilize to carry the internal weapon load of 4t..
infect when it said that su-30mki can carry 32 × OFAB-100-120 dumb bombs each weight 120kg , it clearly means that it is the internal weapon load capacity of 4t..


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## angeldemon_007

> "MKIs were no match to their new f16s" I appreciate your sense of humor


Let me guess, you are still hearing those old news where Su30 beat F16. Let me tell you the last couple years update of Red flag.
After those previous losses in exercises USAF fielded their latest F16 which had aesa and all. The result were Su30 became to vulnerable. I just gave example, Rafale and EF were able to beat Su30 without aesa during the exercises not to mention the block 52 and block 60 F16 hs mny changes apart from aesa.

I hope you guys also understood that air superiority concept.


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## dbc

angeldemon_007 said:


> Let me guess, you are still hearing those old news where Su30 beat F16. Let me tell you the last couple years update of Red flag.
> After those previous losses in exercises *USAF fielded their latest F16 which had aesa and all*. The result were Su30 became to vulnerable. I just gave example, Rafale and EF were able to beat Su30 without aesa during the exercises not to mention the block 52 and block 60 F16 hs mny changes apart from aesa.
> 
> I hope you guys also understood that air superiority concept.



USAF F-16's are not AESA equipped, when did this become a F-16 vs MKI thread?


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## sancho

luckyyy said:


> 8t maximum payload is for the external 12 wing stations..
> 
> but the figures also tells you about maximum internal fuel which is 9640kg , whereas if the fuel be filled at nornal levels of 5270kg..this difference can be utilize to carry the internal weapon load of 4t..
> infect when it said that su-30mki can carry 32 × OFAB-100-120 dumb bombs each weight 120kg , it clearly means that it is the internal weapon load capacity of 4t..



Don't just guess and speculate when the official Sukhoi site clears says 8000Kg payload and please think about it logically, because you are mistaken on several points!

1) Only stealth fighter has internal and external payloads, the one for the internal weapon bays, the other for the external wingstations.

2) Internal fuel and payload has no relation and that is pretty easy to understand, when you think about it logically.
The maximum internal fuel is 9640Kg, so if the MKI carries only 4 x AAMs (around 600Kg), does it mean that the internal fuel can be increased for 7400Kg?
Of course not, because the fuel tank is only big enough to carry 9640Kg, that's why it's called maximum internal fuel!

And you can turn it around as well, if you carry only half the fuel, does it mean you can carry a higher load on the wingtipstation?
Of course not, because it has a load limit that allows only AAMs on this station and no matter what the load on other hardpoints, or the internal fuel tank are, you can only carry this specific load on this hardpoint!

3) Here you can see the weaponload config of Su 30 versions and as you can see, the 32 bombs are located at the centerline, air intake and mid wing hardpoints:

http://www.knaapo.ru/media/rus/about/production/military/Su-30MK2_sheme_b_eng.gif


Once again, the payload of the Flanker is 8000Kg, which is the addition of the load limit, from all 12 hardpoints!


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## sancho

Regarding your TWR calculations, you have different figures of internal fuel for single and twin engine fighters. While it is full internal fuel for some, it is only 75% for others, so equal basic specs are important!

A normal A2A config for MMRCA (Mig 29K because it was fielded in the trials and no reliable specs of Mig 35 are available), would be 4 x AAMs (= 600Kg) and the a 1250l (1000Kg) centerline fuel tank, while MKI carries same weapon load, but only 5000Kg internal fuel and all fighters with dry thrust. 

Dry thrust / gravitational field strength (9.807 m/s²) / emptyweight + internal fuel + payload = TWR

That translates into this ranking (corrected):

1. EF - 0.70
2. Rafale - 0.65
3. MKI - 0.64 (forgot to add the weaponload)
4. F16IN /Mig 29K - 0.58
6. F18SH - 0.55
7. Gripen NG - 0.53

As we can see the EF is clearly the number one with Rafale 2nd and MKI close 3rd.
That actually is the point, EF was designed for air superiority, just like the Flankers are and therefore are designed with high TWR, low wingloading, high climb rates in mind. In most of these fields it is superior to MKI, because the latter suffers from the weight that was added through twin seat layout, canards, TVC, BARS PESA radar...
The TVC of course will be a benefit in terms of maneuverability, but at basic maneuverability the EF is superior, which makes it more than a match in dogfights.
Even for Rafale it is similar, because although it's not developed mainly for air superiority, it was developed with high maneuverability in mind as well. In most specs in this field it is very equal to MKI, be it TWR as shown above, or climb rates and has even clearly lower wingloadings. Rafale is designed to be good in low speed maneuverability, which makes it good for dogfights and this was shown during ATLC and the combats with F22s (with TVC!)

In BVR the Rafale will rely on the passive detection features mainly, while the radar is clearly inferior to MKI. EF instead offers a very capable Captor M with ranges around 160Km for a 5m² target, BARS is given with up to 200Km for the same target, but the important factor will be the RCS less than 1 vs around 15m²!
Even with the addition of an external fuel tank, the EF will not reach a size that MKI could detected at such maximum ranges. The EF on the other side, will detect MKI way beyond the 160Km, will avoid detection, get closer to the target and shoots first. 
That's why I said earlier, that we are not talking about just a smaller fighter like the F16, but a smaller fighter designed for same air superiority role and geared with the same features as well. Even when you compare A2A weapon loads or maximum range, the EF is more than comparable to MKI, 12 x AAMs maximum (10 + fuel tanks) vs 12 x AAMs for the MKI. Ferry range 3700Km vs 3000Km, both offers HMS, capable self protection suits.

One also have to think about the differences that the Su 35BM has compared to Su 30 MKI and that it's more geared for air superiority. Changes like:

- higher thrust engine (SC and 3D TVC capable)
- lower weight and RCS (canards that the early Su 35 had was deleted, just like the vertical stabiliser, or airbrakes, not to forget the advantage of the single seat layout + integration of composites and RAM materials)
- more capable IRBIS-E PESA radar

These features makes it way more comparable (if not superior) to the EF in the air superiority role than the MKI and once again shows where the downsides of MKI lies, compared to such highly capable fighters.


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## angeldemon_007

> USAF F-16's are not AESA equipped, when did this become a F-16 vs MKI thread?


I read all this from official sources even from AF websites. Are you sure about this ??/
Also we just got carried away with the discussion on ASF, its not F16 vs MKI ...sorry to be off-track...


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## sancho

angeldemon_007 said:


> I read all this from official sources even from AF websites. Are you sure about this ??/
> Also we just got carried away with the discussion on ASF, its not F16 vs MKI ...sorry to be off-track...


 
She is right, the only F16s with AESA so far are UAEs Block 60.


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## luckyyy

sancho said:


> Internal fuel and payload has no relation and that is pretty easy to understand, when you think about it logically.


 
i never said that the wingstation paylaod can be increased by reducing fuel weight , but load on the centerline between the two air intake could carry addition load by reducing internal fuel load ,


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## luckyyy

sancho said:


> Regarding your TWR calculations, you have different figures of internal fuel for single and twin engine fighters. While it is full internal fuel for some, it is only 75% for others, so equal basic specs are important!



coz twin engine going to comsume twice the fuel compare to single engine for the same range mission , therefore equal basic specs are important...


sancho said:


> A normal A2A config for MMRCA (Mig 29K because it was fielded in the trials and no reliable specs of Mig 35 are available), would be 4 x AAMs (= 600Kg) and the a 1250l (1000Kg) centerline fuel tank, while MKI carries same weapon load, but only 5000Kg internal fuel and all fighters with dry thrust.



assuming that all fighter are given same mission..


sancho said:


> As we can see the EF is clearly the number one with MKI and Rafale together on 2nd place!
> That actually is the point, EF was designed for air superiority, just like the Flankers are and therefore are designed with high TWR, low wingloading, high climb rates in mind. In most of these fields it is superior to MKI,


TWR helps in climping , but for agility , aerodymamic feature plays a decisive role..


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## Mani2020

What happened to your MRCA deal? still running?


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## angeldemon_007

Have you guys read this :

*Vendors have to provide aircrafts as per contract: IAF official*

Senior IAF official who did not wanted to be named has told idrw.org that, any Vendor who will win the multi-billion dollar MMRCA deal will have to provide aircrafts as per the contract and IAF and HAL cannot be held responsible if the vendor is not able to clear any restriction from their respective governments on any of the technology that they have agreed for in the aircraft.

Official responded when he was asked if India will sign Communication Interoperability and Security Memorandum of Agreement (CISMOA) with United States, if an American fighter is selected in the multi-billion dollar MMRCA deal, he also added that &#8220;MOD had asked and had taken advice from Indian air force on CISMOA and we have provided our suggestion on that&#8221;.

When asked if IAF will induct aircrafts if there are missing certain critical technologies like it happened with recently inducted C-130J, he responded &#8220;We all already looking out for using European and Indian devices which are missing in the aircraft (C-130J) and will source it soon but in terms of such a large number of aircrafts which will be purchased in MMRCA deal, we could ask original vendor to either provide the technology or source, test and certify it and only then deliver the aircrafts&#8221;

It seems that Indian air force have worked out a arrangement or a strategy if American fighters are selected by MOD, and have already provided their feedback on this matter, such agreement has been asked only by American government, this has put American fighters in a disadvantage position in the competition, since Indian government is not much serious in entering into such agreement with united states, which has the backing of its senior air force official .

Experts term it &#8220;classic case of who will blink first&#8221;, and India has the upper hand since it is the purchaser and with multiple vendor in the race from different countries ready to provide key Transfer of Technology, Americans either have to provide India with the technology without entering into such agreement or allow their fighter aircrafts to be fiddled with some other device manufactures, which Americans have not allowed to do to even their closest allies.

Boeing had failed to had clearance from us government and pentagon on providing consultancy service for India&#8217;s Tejas Program, this might have started alarm bells in Indian air force, officials from the air force when questioned on this matter in recently held Aero India, did agree that Americans will give them hard time in releasing TOT of key technologies like the radar which American vendors are tightlipped about.

One official also pointed out that it will be very difficult to base Russian (referring to FGFA and MKI) and American aircrafts in the same base if American crew comes to service radar and other components every now and then which will be not liked by Russia.


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## angeldemon_007

Many of you guys might know this that F16 block 60 and F16 IN Super Viper are not the same. Heres's a difference in their capabilities :

*F-16E/F block 60*
The Block 60 version is based on the F-16C/D Block 50/52 and has been developed especially for the United Arab Emirates (UAE). It features :
1) improved AN/APG-80 Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar
2) avionics
3) conformal fuel tanks (CFTs)
4) more powerful GE F110-132 engine.

*F-16IN *
For the ongoing Indian MRCA competition for the Indian Air Force, Lockheed Martin is offering the customized F-16IN Super Viper.[93] The F-16IN is based closely on the F-16E/F Block 60 and features :
1) improved AN/APG-80 Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar
2) avionics
3) conformal fuel tanks (CFTs)
4) more powerful GE F110-132A engine with FADEC controls
5) electronic warfare suite & infra-red searching (IRST)
6) updated all-color glass cockpit
7) helmet-mounted cueing system


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## dbc

angeldemon_007 said:


> I read all this from official sources even from AF websites. Are you sure about this ??/
> Also we just got carried away with the discussion on ASF, its not F16 vs MKI ...sorry to be off-track...


 
Information available on the internet isnt reliable -this includes official sources. Take the Sukhoi Su-30 MKI's empty weight for instance, does the Sukhoi website account for the extensive work done in India to increase composite materials content, work that includes modifications to the wing, elevators and rudder etcetera? I dont think it does, those figures reflect the modest 6% composite content on MKIs originally made in Russia. 

The same is true for the F/A-18, ECPs (engineering change proposals) and block updates including weight reducing change to the fuselage, wing, rudder and avionics. The APG-79 electronically scanned radar is much lighter than the mechanically steered APG-73 installed on earlier model F/A-18 E/F. The figure for engine thrust on official websites isnt what is available to the pilot in the air. Engine makers measure thrust at sea level on a test rack, real world performance depends on air intake design, nozzle design features such as VEN (variable exhaust nozzle) and FADEC software efficiency and environmental factors such as temperature, altitude and air speed.

Ill conclude this post by saying that the only people qualified to assess the performance of each of the MMRCA contestants are the people who have performed a comprehensive evaluation of each of the MMRCA contenders and have access to accurate performance data. Thats right, wait for the IAF to announce its decision and have faith in the institute that was created to serve and protect your nation.

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## jha

angeldemon_007 said:


> Let me guess, you are still hearing those old news where Su30 beat F16. Let me tell you the last couple years update of Red flag.
> After those previous losses in exercises USAF fielded their latest F16 which had aesa and all. The result were Su30 became to vulnerable. I just gave example, Rafale and EF were able to beat Su30 without aesa during the exercises not to mention the block 52 and block 60 F16 hs mny changes apart from aesa.
> 
> I hope you guys also understood that air superiority concept.


 
You really need to read ..A lot...

One more thing AESA Radar is not something which guarantees victory ...


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## angeldemon_007

> One more thing AESA Radar is not something which guarantees victory ...


Look buddy...aesa does not guarantee victory but it increases vulnerability of enemy AF. In aesa the frequency at which your radar works is not fixed, it keeps on changing while the fighter jet without aesa will work on a fixed frequency and every AF work on a particular frequency. Now during war if you get hold of that frequency which is not a big deal would mean an easy kill for you as every other fighter of your enemy will be working on the same frequency while your fighter with aesa will keep changing its frequency and the enemy won't be able to lock down the frequency of your fighter.

Aesa is a game changer and thats why IAF made it a requirement and there are talks for installing it in Su30 also.



> Information available on the internet isn&#8217;t reliable -this includes official sources. Take the Sukhoi Su-30 MKI's empty weight for instance, does the Sukhoi website account for the extensive work done in India to increase composite materials content, work that includes modifications to the wing, elevators and rudder etcetera? I don&#8217;t think it does, those figures reflect the modest 6% composite content on MKI&#8217;s originally made in Russia.
> 
> The same is true for the F/A-18, ECPs (engineering change proposals) and block updates including weight reducing change to the fuselage, wing, rudder and avionics. The APG-79 electronically scanned radar is much lighter than the mechanically steered APG-73 installed on earlier model F/A-18 E/F. The figure for engine thrust on &#8216;official&#8217; websites isn&#8217;t what is available to the pilot in the air. Engine makers&#8217; measure thrust at sea level on a test rack, real world performance depends on air intake design, nozzle design features such as VEN (variable exhaust nozzle) and FADEC software efficiency and environmental factors such as temperature, altitude and air speed.
> 
> I&#8217;ll conclude this post by saying that the only people qualified to assess the performance of each of the MMRCA contestants are the people who have performed a comprehensive evaluation of each of the MMRCA contenders and have access to accurate performance data. That&#8217;s right, wait for the IAF to announce its decision and have faith in the institute that was created to serve and protect your nation.


You may be right....I read that USAF pilots were saying that it was easy once we got hold of their frequency (Indians) and then the kill was easy. I thought they might have aesa then only they would have been able to lock down Su30 frequency without letting their own frequency revealed because normally Su30 radar is stronger.

---------- Post added at 01:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:15 PM ----------


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## Archie

Mani2020 said:


> What happened to your MRCA deal? still running?


 
u can read the article posted on page 302
mmrca deal will be signed in july with shortlist being announced n april
thats according to airforce chief


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## jha

> Look buddy...aesa does not guarantee victory but it increases vulnerability of enemy AF. In aesa the frequency at which your radar works is not fixed, it keeps on changing while the fighter jet without aesa will work on a fixed frequency and every AF work on a particular frequency. Now during war if you get hold of that frequency which is not a big deal would mean an easy kill for you as every other fighter of your enemy will be working on the same frequency while your fighter with aesa will keep changing its frequency and the enemy won't be able to lock down the frequency of your fighter.
> 
> Aesa is a game changer and thats why IAF made it a requirement and there are talks for installing it in Su30 also.



I know these things sir..All of this contribute to LPI..However you should not forget that AESA still does not guarantee Air-Superiority...
BARS in today's configuration in SU-30MKI outperforms many AESA Radars available ...

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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> Don't just guess and speculate when the official Sukhoi site clears says 8000Kg payload and please think about it logically, because you are mistaken on several points!
> 
> 1) Only stealth fighter has internal and external payloads, the one for the internal weapon bays, the other for the external wingstations.
> 
> 2) Internal fuel and payload has no relation and that is pretty easy to understand, when you think about it logically.
> The maximum internal fuel is 9640Kg, so if the MKI carries only 4 x AAMs (around 600Kg), does it mean that the internal fuel can be increased for 7400Kg?
> Of course not, because the fuel tank is only big enough to carry 9640Kg, that's why it's called maximum internal fuel!
> 
> And you can turn it around as well, if you carry only half the fuel, does it mean you can carry a higher load on the wingtipstation?
> Of course not, because it has a load limit that allows only AAMs on this station and no matter what the load on other hardpoints, or the internal fuel tank are, you can only carry this specific load on this hardpoint!
> 
> 3) Here you can see the weaponload config of Su 30 versions and as you can see, the 32 bombs are located at the centerline, air intake and mid wing hardpoints:
> 
> http://www.knaapo.ru/media/rus/about/production/military/Su-30MK2_sheme_b_eng.gif
> 
> 
> Once again, the payload of the Flanker is 8000Kg, which is the addition of the load limit, from all 12 hardpoints!


 

Sancho as per the site payload is kept as 8tonne on the hardpoints.. while the maximum Fuel weight is 9 tonne... while 25 tonne of Empty weight already includes 4 missiles and 5 tonne of fuel.. which means a 4 tonne of fuel can be added more and 6 tonne of payload extra so the total comes around 36 tonne.. means in 6 tonne it can have enough A2A missile to take of number of Euro fighters... and you know at any time in BVR engagements having more long range missile and more fuel is always an advantage so that you can use more AB because of more fuel.. where EFT will loose there.. while in WVR you cannot always take the maximum load for engagements because in WVR pilots will try to engage on optimal configuration like use of half of internal fuel and less missile ... which actually increases the agility of MKI and which dramatically increased the advantage of MKI over EFT... how ever light and manuvarable it can be ... EFT cannot compromise on fuel because already it is very less of 4 tonne not it can compromise the load while it engages the MKI in WVR.... while MKI will do because of being a monster.. In either case MKI has more advantage on EFT or Rafale... 

With Super upgrade it will be on different league totally outsmarting EFT and Rafale because of lot of changes from MC to structural hardening...


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## sancho

luckyyy said:


> i never said that the wingstation paylaod can be increased by reducing fuel weight , but load on the centerline between the two air intake could carry addition load by reducing internal fuel load ,


 
Only till the weight limit of the centerline station, but that has nothing to do with the internal fuel, try to understand it, the one has nothing to do with the other and both has their own limitations!




kingdurgaking said:


> means in 6 tonne it can have enough A2A missile to take of number of Euro fighters...



Oh boy 
MKI has 12 x hardpoints, each can carry an AAM. Lets say 4 x R73 and 8 x R77 = 1820Kg payload. So when all hardpoints are already occupied, where do you want to add payload?

Start thinking about it logically and not mixing up all numbers please, the payload is limited by the number and the load limit of the hardpoints, not by the internal fuel!



kingdurgaking said:


> more fuel is always an advantage so that you can use more AB because of more fuel.. where EFT will loose there...



But there is an important point you are missing, that EF can SC with an normal A2A weapon config + fuel tank. It don't have to use the AB, because it already has a speed advantage. 




kingdurgaking said:


> while in WVR you cannot always take the maximum load for engagements because in WVR pilots will try to engage on optimal configuration like use of half of internal fuel and less missile ... which actually increases the agility of MKI and which dramatically increased the advantage of MKI over EFT...
> how ever light and manuvarable it can be ... EFT cannot compromise on fuel because already it is very less of 4 tonne not it can compromise the load while it engages the MKI in WVR.... while MKI will do because of being a monster.. In either case MKI has more advantage on EFT or Rafale...



Again you miss the important points, because EF will simply jettison the fuel tank to reduce weight and drag in dogfights, while MKI carries all fuel internally and will remain with most of the weight.
Not to mention that EF carries 5t of fuel internally as well, just like the MKI with normal take off weight and it should be clear that with the lighter weight and lower fuel consumtion, EF has even longer range than the MKI in this case.

I can only repeat it, don't confuse EF with light weight fighters like older Migs, F16s, or Gripens, that had not only less thrust, but also less radar range, internal fuel, or weapon carriage capability. EF in this role is a class above and way closer, if not superior to MKI.
In south Asia, only PLAAFs Flankers will be a real opponent in this situations at the moment, but EF and to some extend even Rafale offers better capabilities, that only a few other fighters have.

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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> Oh boy
> MKI has 12 x hardpoints, each can carry an AAM. Lets say 4 x R73 and 8 x R77 = 1820Kg payload. So when all hardpoints are already occupied, where do you want to add payload?
> 
> Start thinking about it logically and not mixing up all numbers please, the payload is limited by the number and the load limit of the hardpoints, not by the internal fuel!...But there is an important point you are missing, that EF can SC with an normal A2A weapon config + fuel tank. It don't have to use the AB, because it already has a speed advantage.


Boss i am very logical.. when all the external hardpoints have the capability to carry 8000 tonne payload..if need arises i repeat if need arises we can multirack missiles... please come out of page books... IAF already have done multiracking with Mig bison... 

secondly with speed advantage how much speed it can overcome 3 missiles fired in ripples at it in BVR ranges? can it over come the speed of missile with supercruising.. in WVR you dont need super cruising as you need good manovoures to defeat the enemy.... while supercruise is an advantage for stealth fighters who can decide to engage or break the fight .....but in case of 4th gen it doesnt add any advantage.. these supercruise are advantage during peace time only.. 




> Again you miss the important points, because EF will simply jettison the fuel tank to reduce weight and drag in dogfights, while MKI carries all fuel internally and will remain with most of the weight.
> Not to mention that EF carries 5t of fuel internally as well, just like the MKI with normal take off weight and it should be clear that with the lighter weight and lower fuel consumtion, EF has even longer range than the MKI in this case.



Boss Adding fuel tank will reduce the payload of EFT which will be jettisonned when it is in BVR range otherwise it will be a tost.. which is not the same with MKI.. with 9tonne internal fuel it can carry extra load with out drop tanks.... secondly most of the engagements will happen in BVR where most of the fuel will be consumed by MKI and EFT ... when coming to WVR EFT will be in terrible disadvantage compared to MKI both in payload and Fuel.. how come you still arguing that it will toss MKI?



> I can only repeat it, don't confuse EF with light weight fighters like older Migs, F16s, or Gripens, that had not only less thrust, but also less radar range, internal fuel, or weapon carriage capability. EF in this role is a class above and way closer, if not superior to MKI.
> In south Asia, only PLAAFs Flankers will be a real opponent in this situations at the moment, but EF and to some extend even Rafale offers better capabilities, that only a few other fighters have.


 
i am not confusing EF is like Mig or F-16's but you are confused that it is in the category of MKI.. MKI is a heavy weight fighter .. which can eat one missile and still reach with one engine because they are widely spaced ... which is not the same with EFT.. your dreams EF and Rafale offer better capability in terms of avionics may be true.. but in case of weapons payload(which is very important for the fighter) is not the same... MKI at present still can take a lock on EFT and Rafale at the same distance they lock MKI... MKI carries Israeli avioncis to jam and posses a good counter measures like EF and Rafale.. i dont find how EFT and Rafale are good compared to MKI.. EFT and Rafale are good but they are not worth for the money... They are too costly.. I find NG is more than enough... though with less payload it has all the features of EFT and Rafale.... which i feel enough to put a sufficient deterent against enemy which is composed of Flankers and F-16


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## MilSpec

angeldemon_007 said:


> Let me guess, you are still hearing those old news where Su30 beat F16. Let me tell you the last couple years update of Red flag.
> After those previous losses in exercises USAF fielded their latest F16 which had aesa and all. The result were Su30 became to vulnerable. I just gave example, Rafale and EF were able to beat Su30 without aesa during the exercises not to mention the block 52 and block 60 F16 hs mny changes apart from aesa.
> 
> I hope you guys also understood that air superiority concept.


 
#4511 check and reply


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## luckyyy

i think here we are missing the thinks too much...

don't know where and when SU-30MKI going to counter EF ?

i think MMRCA and other fighters with IAF should be compare to the real & visible threats only...


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## luckyyy

Washington, March 13: Indo-US friendship is facing its biggest test since Atal Bihari Vajpayee declared as Prime Minister 11 years ago that the two countries are natural allies, a declaration that was belatedly endorsed by US President Barack Obama.

At the bottom of this critical test is the determination by one senior minister in the UPA government to prevent another corruption scandal of the Commonwealth Games, 2G spectrum and the Adarsh variety, which he fears, is embedded in the current state of this friendship.

That minister is Saint Antony, as defence minister A.K. Antony is often known, because of his obsession with honesty and transparency not only in defence procurement, but also in any public position he has handled, from chief minister of Kerala to portfolios in current and previous central governments as a cabinet minister.

US secretary of state Hillary Clinton was all set to travel to India with a power-packed delegation in just over three weeks, but that high-profile visit has now been cancelled because of Antonys insistence that he will not be pushed around by the Americans on the biggest military aviation deal in history.

Clintons visit, which was to have been built around a second round of the Indo-US strategic dialogue, has been in the making for more than six months.

At the first round of this dialogue in June 2010, Obama stunned Washington with an unusual gesture of driving to a reception for external affairs minister S.M. Krishna at the state department, where he formally announced his visit to India.

The military aviation deal involves Indias purchase of 126 medium, multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) at a cost of around $10 billion. Boeings F/A-18E/F Super Hornet is one of the contenders in the tender which may ultimately involve upto 200 fighter planes.

The ministry of external affairs on Friday announced the postponement of the dialogue which was to begin on April 6 in New Delhi, but offered the excuse of the state elections in India and ongoing developments in West Asia and North Africa for the delay.

The Indians all along knew that state elections would take place at this time and the turmoil in the Middle East began in January, a Pentagon official who did not want to be identified for fear of muddying the waters wryly said after the external affairs ministry put out its press release.

Indicating that the Pentagons irritation over the postponement is widely shared across the US administration, the state department did not make any announcement similar to South Blocks.

It is normal in diplomatic exchanges to concurrently make such announcements in both capitals involved in joint initiatives, even to issue identical press releases agreed between the two governments.

Indias ambassador to the US, Meera Shankar, had reiterated as recently as a fortnight ago that the New Delhi session of the strategic dialogue would take place as planned from April 6.

The postponement became inevitable after Antony firmly refused to meet US defence secretary Robert Gates who wanted to travel with Clinton to India for the dialogue and lobby on behalf of American bidders for the MMRCA deal.

Gates was not part of the first round of the strategic talks last year and Antony concluded that the defence secretary was injecting himself into the process only to influence the defence ministrys procurement process.

A senior Indian official said the Americans never formally communicated that Gates would be part of Clintons delegation at any time but were in overdrive by activating US lobbies in New Delhi to get India to agree to their defence secretarys inclusion in the strategic dialogue.

A senior Union cabinet minister told The Telegraph that Antony informed him that he would go away to Kerala during the duration of Gates stay in New Delhi if there was coercion on the defence ministry into agreeing to the US defence secretary's travel to India.

This was well before the election dates for Kerala had been announced and the outbreak of popular uprisings in the Arab world.

Last week, Indias defence secretary Pradeep Kumar, who was here for a meeting of the Indo-US Defence Policy Group (DPG), officially informed the US under secretary for defence policy, Michelle Flournoy, that Antonys schedule next month did not allow him to meet Gates.

Of course, Kumar diplomatically cited the Assembly elections in Kerala as the reason for Antonys inability to be in New Delhi in the first two weeks of April.

Kumar was given treatment fit for a head of government during his visit, born out of Washingtons mistaken belief after dealing with banana republics and client states that such red carpet receptions can influence decisions in a country like India.

But it is a signal of Washingtons determination to wrest the MMRCA contract that the Obama administration preferred to postpone the strategic dialogue instead of leaving Gates behind.

*Signals from the defence ministry in recent weeks are that Swedens Saab JAS 39 Gripen and Frances Dassault Rafale have an edge in the Indian selection process at this stage of the MMRCA deal.*

It is these signals which have made the Americans nervous enough to take the position that there will be no strategic dialogue without a Gates trip to India.

Not a week now passes without someone in New Delhi who can influence the process of decision-making in the deal being wooed and feted by an army of American defence contractors, their agents and lobbyists in a process that has the potential to be a scandal.

Antony is acutely aware of this and is determined that his snow-white image that has endured during half a century of public life will not be allowed to be sullied by shenanigans in India by America's notorious military industrial complex.

Antony has resigned on moral grounds as Kerala chief minister and as Union minister for civil supplies, consumer affairs and public distribution even when allegations of wrong-doing or corruption did not remotely touch him but were levelled by association against his ministry.

The Telegraph - Calcutta (Kolkata) | Nation | US friendship faces St Antony test[/QUOTE]

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## sreekimpact

He is the MAN!!!!


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## kingdurgaking

hmmmm agreed or not it is the Americans who are going to bag the deals.... All those signals are really absurd and doesnt carry any weightage... Apart from the signal ... you can clearly see the pressure and lobbying done by Americans... As per BR one guy has done good prediction what is the real motive for Antony not to meet gates.. it is the Teens which are considered and Antony want to make sure the selection is not bound by pressure..


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## sancho

kingdurgaking said:


> Boss i am very logical...



Not at all, because refuse facts and even official specs and base your arguments as I expected only on this:



> but you are confused that it is in the category of MKI.. MKI is a heavy weight fighter



which is is far away from beeing logical!


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## angeldemon_007

> Signals from the defence ministry in recent weeks are that Sweden&#8217;s Saab JAS 39 Gripen and France&#8217;s Dassault Rafale have an edge in the Indian selection process at this stage of the MMRCA deal.


I am very happy to hear this...


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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> Not at all, because refuse facts and even official specs and base your arguments as I expected only on this:
> 
> which is is far away from beeing logical!


 
Which Factor is refused.. You decide?.. in a BVR a fighter having maximum number of missiles will not be able to bring down the enemy?..
MKI will be able to muliti rack missiles and carry 8tonne of payload?.. i feel i am very much logical on the both.. and it seems you are not able to understand what i am expressing.... 

your argument

Lets say 4 x R73 and 8 x R77 = 1820Kg payload... you say it is only always one missile for a hard point??? logical... my argument it can carry multiple Archer on the same point until the hardpoint reaches the maximum capacity... your arguments are literally debunked here...

see Mig bison with R-60 of IAF








hopefully you understand EFT and Rafale can never able to carry the payload nor able to over power MKI at any situation... unless they have the sufficient numerical advantage..


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## the rafter

[video]http://www.timesnow.tv/videoshow/4367809.cms[/video]

*Obama pushes for 'Jet deal'- TIMESNOW.tv - Latest Breaking News, Big News Stories, News Videos*

The United States has begun to exert pressure on Prime Minister Manmohan Singh in what coould be called open lobbying for F-16 fighter planes. TIMES NOW is in possession of copy of the letter sent by US President Barack Obama to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh exerting pressure for a fighter deal. 

In a letter addressed to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh dated February 4, 2011 Obama stated that buying Amercan Boeing F/A-18 IN and Lockheed Martin F-6IN will improve strategic ties between India and US. 

In his letter to Manmohan Singh, US President Barack Obama wrote, "In the spirit of this friendship I want to underscore the strategic importance the US attaches to the selection of a US proposal in India's medium multi roll combat aircraft competition." 

Obama also stated , "Additionally you can be confident in probity and transparency of doing business with American companies.'' 

"The United States Government is offering India two of the most advanced multi mission combat aircraft in the world-the Boeing F/A-181N and the Lockheed Martin F-16IN. Let me assure you the US is a willing capable & relaible defence partner to India. High technology defence sales are increasingly a cornerstone of our strategic partnership. this typw of technology is only provided to our closest allies and partners." 

"During my visit in November 2010, we committed to expand our relationship in new and ambitious areas, giving our peoples a vision of a strategic partnership that promises decades of close collaboration in the pursuit of the shared goals of prosperity and security. Through our recent initiatives, the United STates has demonstrated its commitment to India's rise and its global leadership role. (The selection of a US proposal for the MMRCA tender will strengthen our partnership, launch our defence cooperation on an ambitious and rewarding trajectory, and provide strategic continuity to our growing relationship.''


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## the rafter

*Air Weapons: Too Smart For Americans*
March 15, 2011: A British Typhoon fighter recently successfully dropped the first Paveway IV used by this aircraft type. This test was to confirm that the Eurofighter Typhoon's fire control system could program a Paveway IV with GPS target information. Paveway IV is a dual guidance (laser/GPS) kit that is attached to an unguided bomb. The 50.5 kg (111 pound) Paveway kit (guidance electronics, computers and battery powered winglets) attached is attached to the bomb. But to work, the carrying aircraft must have a fire control system that enables the pilot to get the GPS data (received from troops on the ground) into the Paveway IV equipped bomb.
The Paveway IV system is actually a guidance kit that, once attached to a one ton, half ton or quarter ton bomb, can achieve precise (within a meter or less) accuracy using a laser designator, or use GPS guidance to land within ten meters (31 feet) of the aiming point. The U.S. firm that manufactures the Paveway bombs, Raytheon, has produced over 250,000 kits so far, of which about twenty percent have been used in combat, with great success. Earlier versions of Paveway did not have GPS. Most just only had laser guidance. While more accurate, laser guidance requires that someone on the ground or in the air be shining a laser on the target. The Paveway then homes in on the reflected laser light (of a particular frequency).

The Paveway IV is not used by the U.S. Air Force or Navy, but, so far, is only exported. The biggest buyers have Arab nations in the Persian Gulf. In the U.S., JDAM and other GPS-only weapons are much more popular.

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## the rafter

*Mer et Marine : Toute l'actualité maritime*
Google translate: French to english:
*First operational deployment for the Damocles pod on Rafale*





Damocles pod on Rafale in tests of the system


According to our colleagues Air & Cosmos, naval aviation has led, in January, its first operational missions with the couples Damocles / Rafale. From the aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle, during the last mission Agapanthus, pilots of Rafale F3 have implemented the new laser designation pod developed by Thales. This equipment, which began shipping in 2010, allows aircraft to the Navy and Air Force to perform independently in firing laser-guided. Previously, the use of laser guided bombs require, in effect, two aircraft, a Super Etendard Upgraded illuminated the target while the other device freed his arms. With the commissioning of the F3 standard Rafale and the arrival of Damocles, a single device can now identify and treat the lens.





Damocles pod on Rafale

According to Air & Cosmos, no bombs were dropped in this way in Afghanistan, where the air group's Charles de Gaulle was hired in late 2010. However,the firing of exercise have been conducted with the Damocles pod and GBU 12 .
For the record, the Rafale in the Charles de Gaulle also during Agapanthus, implemented for the first time during operational missions, the Reco NG reconnaissance pod.





Reco NG sur Rafale

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## sancho

kingdurgaking said:


> MKI will be able to muliti rack missiles and carry 8tonne of payload?...



No it can't, because A, neither Flankers, nor Fulcrums have multi pylons for missiles and B, it's still the weight limit of the hardpoint that you ignore!

A hardpoint that can carry only up to 300Kg, can't carry 2 AAMs and the weight of the multi pylon, or a heavy anti ship missile, or a heavy bomb. That's the reason why even official weapon loadouts of the Flankers show none of these weapons on the outer wing, or wingtip station.

More over, in your hypothetical scenario what makes you think that EF couldn't do the same? It has a payload of 7500Kg, has even more wingstations than the MKI, that can carry heavier loads (3 of 4 stations can carry bombs) and one of it's future weapon capability is to carry 3 x Brimstone ATGMs on a multi pylon, totalling in up to 18 missiles:






So by the same hypothetical logic that you use for the MKI, the EF must be able to do the same, or even more!

But all these speculations here are pointless, because the payload is limited by the weight limit of the hardpoints and can't increased beyond that, only by useing less fuel like you think. Not on the MKI and also not on the EF, because this logic would be the same for MKI again.

Oh btw, you mentioned the Elta jamming pods of MKI. Adding them to a normal A2A config means, it looses 2 stations, while EF has these techs integrated in the fighter and the ECM wingtip pods. That means MKI carries the same maximum load of 10 missiles, that EF would carry as well!

Again, the only field where MKI has an advantage is radar range, which in return will be countered by the big RCS. Against lighter fighters with less capable radars that won't be a big issue, but against a modern and capable fighter like EF, it's simply a different issue. In all other performance specs, the EF is at least comparable, if not superior!
That has nothing to do with the weight class, but with the capabilities of both fighters and the EF is undeniably one of the best at least in air superiority!

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## luckyyy

why a EF / rafale when Gripen can do the same job..


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## Agnostic_Indian

luckyyy said:


> why a EF / rafale when Gripen can do the same job..


 
because when we choose a platform we have to go for the possible best.GRIPEN may be enough for 2025 but we need fighters to have an edge beyond that period.so we need to select todays best so that tomorrow also it remain good enough.


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## luckyyy

Agnostic_Indian said:


> because when we choose a platform we have to go for the possible best.GRIPEN may be enough for 2025 but we need fighters to have an edge beyond that period.so we need to select todays best so that tomorrow also it remain good enough.


 
so what is which Gripen/SAAB can't offer beyond 2025..?


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## luckyyy

SAAB briefs Canada65 Gripens, 40 years of maintenance for under $6B 
SAAB briefs Canada&#8211;65 Gripens, 40 years of maintenance for under $6B #military #cndpoli « ELP DEFENS(C)E BLOG


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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> No it can't, because A, neither Flankers, nor Fulcrums have multi pylons for missiles and B, it's still the weight limit of the hardpoint that you ignore!
> 
> A hardpoint that can carry only up to 300Kg, can't carry 2 AAMs and the weight of the multi pylon, or a heavy anti ship missile, or a heavy bomb. That's the reason why even official weapon loadouts of the Flankers show none of these weapons on the outer wing, or wingtip station.
> 
> More over, in your hypothetical scenario what makes you think that EF couldn't do the same? It has a payload of 7500Kg, has even more wingstations than the MKI, that can carry heavier loads (3 of 4 stations can carry bombs) and one of it's future weapon capability is to carry 3 x Brimstone ATGMs on a multi pylon, totalling in up to 18 missiles:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So by the same hypothetical logic that you use for the MKI, the EF must be able to do the same, or even more!
> 
> But all these speculations here are pointless, because the payload is limited by the weight limit of the hardpoints and can't increased beyond that, only by useing less fuel like you think. Not on the MKI and also not on the EF, because this logic would be the same for MKI again.
> 
> Oh btw, you mentioned the Elta jamming pods of MKI. Adding them to a normal A2A config means, it looses 2 stations, while EF has these techs integrated in the fighter and the ECM wingtip pods. That means MKI carries the same maximum load of 10 missiles, that EF would carry as well!
> 
> Again, the only field where MKI has an advantage is radar range, which in return will be countered by the big RCS. Against lighter fighters with less capable radars that won't be a big issue, but against a modern and capable fighter like EF, it's simply a different issue. In all other performance specs, the EF is at least comparable, if not superior!
> That has nothing to do with the weight class, but with the capabilities of both fighters and the EF is undeniably one of the best at least in air superiority!


 

I think we are coming round and around and around... First of all explain me .. if a hard point is limited to 300 kg and 12 hard point will come around 3.5 tonne ... so as per official site it can carry 8 tonne of external load.. so means there are hard points configured for more pay load.. do you accept?

oke assume Eurofighter and Rafale as the capability to carry multiple missiles like MKI.. but do they have the range?... Rafale with internal fuel can carry 6 tonne as apposed to MKI of 9tonne..

so they have to carry some external fuel pods.. while MKI has the internal fuel of 9 tonne... while 24 tonne of Normal weight already hoses 5 tonne and it can hose 4 tonne plus 8 tonne to reach the maximum weight of the MKI... it has a very good loitering capability.....

You are either debating in one direction as Air superiority forgetting the range and the loitering which is also important because it can occupy external hard points or arguing only on loitering time forgetting the payload.. which is superior for MKI... lets assume it carries only armaments for 10 hard points carrying the good jammers and litening pod for both Air to Air and Air to ground mission.. 

Thats why i say MKI is simply unmatched for EFT and Rafale..

Feel free to argue your points


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## Agnostic_Indian

luckyyy said:


> so what is which Gripen/SAAB can't offer beyond 2025..?


 
GRIPEN is single engine fighter designed for a small countries cost effective and easy to use purpose.TYPHOON and rafale are bigger and better fighters.besides we have LCA mk2 which will be in the same class of GRIPEN once it completed.


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## luckyyy

Agnostic_Indian said:


> GRIPEN is single engine fighter designed for a small countries cost effective and easy to use purpose.TYPHOON and rafale are bigger and better fighters.besides we have LCA mk2 which will be in the same class of GRIPEN once it completed.


 
don't you think india also would like to have cost effective and easy to use fighter..?


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## sancho

kingdurgaking said:


> I think we are coming round and around and around... First of all explain me .. if a hard point is limited to 300 kg and 12 hard point will come around 3.5 tonne ... so as per official site it can carry 8 tonne of external load.. *so means there are hard points configured for more pay load.. do you accept?*



That's what I'm telling you from the start!



kingdurgaking said:


> oke assume Eurofighter and Rafale as the capability to carry multiple missiles like MKI.. but do they have the range?...



Yes, because as I told you before, the EF can carry up to 10 AAMs + additional fuel tanks!

Here is a pic of a fully loaded EF, now replace the bombs with your hypothetical multi pylons and it still carries them, 6 AAMs and 3 fuel tanks.







I also told you before that the MKI on internal fuel, has a ferry range of 3000Km, EF with external fuel tanks even up to 3700Km.

You try and try even with hypothetical scenarios that MKI would have a clear advantage, but it hasn't because these modern designs offers high capabilities as well. EF more for the A2A role, while the Rafale, or Gripen NG designs offers good A2G load configs. And you just need to look at the changes made on the Su 35BM to understand, where the MKI lacks, because neither the number of hardpoints, nor the external payload were changed to make it better, the focus instead was on lower RCS and higher TWR mainly.
Adding a better radar and integrated EWS features are another point, which we will see through the MKI upgrade as well, but compared to Su 35 and EF, MKI remains with the higher RCS and lower TWR.


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## luckyyy

EF is good but does that fits the bill.....in initial cost of precurment as well as flying hour cost & maintanence cost ?

as far as comparision of MKI to EF , i think IAF having a very clear idea on it after many inderdanush excercises....
but does Gripen ever fielded in front of EF , like to know othe result there...?


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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> I also told you before that the MKI on internal fuel, has a ferry range of 3000Km, EF with external fuel tanks even up to 3700Km.


yes thats what i am saying MKI has clear internal fuel advantage which has helped in freeing up the hard points to carry more pay load... which ultimately boils to payload advantage.. so far i have never seen a MKI with a external fuel tank.. do you have any pic of it? but Rafale and EFT do carry fuel tanks... which is the heaviest hard point.. which ultimately reduces the pay load.... i hope you are getting what i am debating on


> You try and try even with hypothetical scenarios that MKI would have a clear advantage, but it hasn't because these modern designs offers high capabilities as well. EF more for the A2A role, while the Rafale, or Gripen NG designs offers good A2G load configs. And you just need to look at the changes made on the Su 35BM to understand, where the MKI lacks, because neither the number of hardpoints, nor the external payload were changed to make it better, the focus instead was on lower RCS and higher TWR mainly.
> Adding a better radar and integrated EWS features are another point, which we will see through the MKI upgrade as well, but compared to Su 35 and EF, MKI remains with the higher RCS and lower TWR.


 
yeah i accept RCS is the big issue.. but it has been negated with a huge radar with which it would be able to detect EFT and Rafale at a great distance .. and the best missile like Archer , Brahmos it has always been a clear advantage for MKI... because of more payload and more internal fuel.. it is a clear advantage for MKI..


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## Agnostic_Indian

luckyyy said:


> don't you think india also would like to have cost effective and easy to use fighter..?


 
we are going to use it to counter china..and they have upper hand in quantity and quality wise also they are close..so more than cost and easy to use factor quality should be factor.we have enough money to spend now so that should not be a concen.


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## sancho

kingdurgaking said:


> yes thats what i am saying MKI has clear internal fuel advantage which has helped in freeing up the hard points to carry more pay load... which ultimately boils to payload advantage..



 

*MKI:* 9t total fuel + 8t total payload on 12 hardpoints (- 2 with ECM pods, leaves 10 for AAMs)
*EF*: 7.4t total fuel + 7.5t payload on 13 hardpoints (leaves 10 for AAMs)

*MKI fuel fraction with total fuel*: 0.34
*EF fuel fraction with total fuel:* 0.40

*MKI TWR dry with total fuel:* 0.55
*EF TWR dry with total fuel:* 0.67


*Conclusion:* EF offers same load of missiles, longer range and better TWR, just some examples where it is better.




kingdurgaking said:


> so far i have never seen a MKI with a external fuel tank.. do you have any pic of it?



Because it don't carry them, otherwise the huge internal fuel would not make sense anymore. The only Flanker that I saw with a fuel tank is the Su 34.



kingdurgaking said:


> yeah i accept RCS is the big issue.. but it has been negated with a huge radar with which it would be able to detect EFT and Rafale at a great distance ...



As I explaind before, not against fighters that have such small RCS and comparable radars!


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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> *MKI:* 9t total fuel + 8t total payload on 12 hardpoints (- 2 with ECM pods, leaves 10 for AAMs)
> *EF*: 7.4t total fuel + 7.5t payload on 13 hardpoints (leaves 10 for AAMs)
> 
> *MKI fuel fraction with total fuel*: 0.34
> *EF fuel fraction with total fuel:* 0.40
> 
> *MKI TWR dry with total fuel:* 0.55
> *EF TWR dry with total fuel:* 0.67
> 
> 
> *Conclusion:* EF offers same load of missiles, longer range and better TWR, just some examples where it is better.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Because it don't carry them, otherwise the huge internal fuel would not make sense anymore. The only Flanker that I saw with a fuel tank is the Su 34.
> 
> 
> 
> As I explaind before, not against fighters that have such small RCS and comparable radars!


 





and read the link 

http://vayu-sena.tripod.com/info-su30mki.html

First of all EF fuel fraction is 0.31 not 0.4 while su -27 has fuel fraction of 0.36 ... assuming MKI is bigger we can say it can have 0.34 lets assume 0.31 itself... with external fuel tanks EFT/Rafale performance is going to be very bad....

secondly as per wiki MKI hard points can be increased to 14... 

TWR of EFT is good because of higher use of composites.. and less loading .... secondly it has to compulsorily have 2 external fuel tanks of 1000 liters to cover a distance as compared to MKI ... secondly these external tanks reduces the load weight of EFT and Rafale by 1.5 tonnes... Even in air shows EFT and Rafale carry one drop tanks compulsorily.. while MKI goes up without anything.. while each air shows happens for 30-40 mins max.. MKI can loiter with internal fuel for full 3.5 hours


Finally with weapons and fuel tanks increases the RCS of the fighters tremendously... enough to have MKI to have a competitive edge because of its powerful radars...


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## KEETARP

sancho said:


> Hehe, distracting from EFs shortfalls with F16 B60 capabilities now?



Really , or it's other way round . If i remember correctly you claimed something for *all* MRCA jets . 



> Sancho wrote -
> Unique capabilities that EF and *several other MMRCA contenders* simply don't offer yet, or even will not have at all!
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/4347-mrca-news-discussions-post1527356.html#post1527356








> Yes I remember and I thanked you for those infos back then, but we both also agreed on the fact that the F16 IN won't have the Northrop EWS and avionics the UAE has, but new developed versions by Raytheon, which will be the base for upgrades of older F16 in future.



Still ,you can't deny that such tech exists in F16 developed in 2000-02 time frame . 
And if India asks for customization to get these sensors , We can always have them . like - CFT with refuel probe for MRCA , Datalink-2 for IAF grid developed for IAF specifications. 
No wonder when oliver Prince claims F16IN is the most advanced block ever developed . If tech in SPECTRA is such a game changer (even greater than AESA radar) then IAF won't ignore it . 
Until then EWS on F16/every other jet is compliant and acceptable to IAF . 

from your post earlier 
http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/4347-mrca-news-discussions-290.html#post1525753
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-VQMh1GhIehY/TWldNwnBHUI/AAAAAAAAM1s/Q0EQOK1VqOc/s1600/GP1.jpg
2nd page 5th para .





> Lets sum up the facts once again! SPECTRA has interferometry techs to not only detect threats, but also geolocate them.
> Yes, UAEs F16 B60 has similar techs, but that EWS was specially developed for them (also funded by them), not for India, or other F16 operators. F16IN has the Raytheon ACES EWS, without such locating capabilities, just like EFs DASS, or the normal F18SH (the Growler might have it, by the fact that it carries more specialised EW equipment, for example in the ESM wingtip pods) don't have it. The only other MMRCA apart from Rafale is Gripen NG that is planed to have similar techs in future, or at least available for us, but with SPECTRA beeing an operational system for nearly a decade now and still beeing improved, it should be clear which system is the best.



See , now you explore possibility of three jets having similar sensors , contrary to 

[Sancho wrote - 
"Unique capabilities that EF and several other MMRCA contenders simply don't offer yet, or even will *not have at all*!"]

note - not at all . 
As i said earlier - If IAF wants and feels is a necessity- to be compiant as per contract . 
Other manufacturer's have to install it 





> If you want to admit it or not, it is more than a normal self- protection system and offers more defensive and offensive capabilities.



Of course all modern EWS suites are more than normal - simple protective gears , my post earlier 
middle bold part and links about EW suites 

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/4347-mrca-news-discussions-147.html#post996995




> These are unique so far and are the key to make Rafale more suited alongside MKI and LCA than any other MMRCA contender!



That is your personal opinion and not necessary to be in coherent to IAF view . You think Rafale is best suited while I think Gripen is much more suited . 
we can continue to argue on that , for years with any conclusion .




> As I said from the start, Rafale will have less AESA radar range than other fighters in the competition (while not beeing worse at all!), but they did that on purpose, because they don't wanted to rely on a single sensor only, but make full use of all sensors and weapon capabilities they have and the key to this is SPECTRA!



Any source to confirm or just your logic -----------
I say, lack of enough volume in nose forced to install a 700 TRM radar . Now prove it otherwise .
BTW before i forget again and take a break for 48 hrs , my queries still unanswered from prev below post,.......

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/4347-mrca-news-discussions-290.html#post1526165


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## KEETARP

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> While we're talking about sensors the F/A-18's are currently being used in Afghanistan to detect IED(s) from the air.
> I can PM you the details if interested.



Appreciate that - looking forward for details on that sensor


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## KEETARP

PANDORA said:


> *SIMPLY WOW !!!!!!!!*



Stunning , many thanks for the pic

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## the rafter

*Combat aircraft vendors still wait for setting up of price negotiation panel*

New Delhi: Vendors vying to win one of the biggest defence deals of $10.4 billion for 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) are yet to get any indication from the ministry of defence (MoD) for the price negotiations.
&#8220;Ahead of the price negotiations, a price negotiation committee has to be set up, which is a complex process,&#8221; an industry sources told FE on condition of anonymity. &#8220;So far, neither has the committee been set up, nor the qualifying vendors been informed. Therefore, there is no possibility of the negotiations starting by the month-end.&#8221;

Last week, Air Chief Marshal PV Naik, the Indian Air Force chief, had announced that the price negotiation for the deal would begin later this month. But according to the person cited earlier, &#8220;*Those who have been shortlisted have to be given enough time to get ready for the talks and even those who have failed to make the cut would get point-wise explanations from the MoD for not qualifying.*&#8221;

The IAF has given the MoD its report on the technical and field trials of the six aircraft in contention: Lockheed Martin&#8217;s F-16IN, Boeing&#8217;s F/A-18 E/F, the Typhoon from the multi-nation consortium Eurofighter, France&#8217;s Dassault Rafale, the Swedish Gripen IN and Russia&#8217;s MiG-35.

An MoD Technical Oversight Committee (TOC) is currently looking at the &#8216;offset&#8217; proposals, a requirement that the winning contractor source a certain amount of the value of each aircraft that India buys from Indian industry. Their proposals for transfer of technology are also being examined.

After this, *the TOC will select three companies to go to the next stage of the bidding process.*

The lowest bidder will be called by a contract negotiation committee to finalise the terms of the deal. After this is done, the MoD, the finance minister and finally the Cabinet committee on security will have to sign off on it.

At the recent Aero India show, the air chief said this will be done by September, but MoD officials have told FE it is likely to happen only at the end of the year or early next year.

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## localoca

PRATEEK said:


> Stunning , many thanks for the pic


 what is so stunning? two old design fighter, one design dated back to the 1960s...


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## GORKHALI

localoca said:


> what is so stunning? two old design fighter, one design dated back to the 1960s...


 
one of older design fighter plane is frontline of your airforce and Copy reference to J 11


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## luckyyy

Agnostic_Indian said:


> we are going to use it to counter china..and they have upper hand in quantity and quality wise also they are close..so more than cost and easy to use factor quality should be factor.we have enough money to spend now so that should not be a concen.


 
Gripen with 3000kg internal fuel will be having the same range as that of any other twine engine fighter with 6000kg internal fuel..
also with a 5000kg payload is well enough to carry weapons , missiles and a external fuel tank...take a note that to extend range , a twine engine will be required to carry two drop tanks as compare to only one by Gripen...

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## sancho

kingdurgaking said:


>



And your point is?




kingdurgaking said:


> First of all EF fuel fraction is 0.31 not 0.4



The earlier with internal fuel only, the latter with the external fuel, so as I said, with total fuel it has longer range than the MKI.




kingdurgaking said:


> these external tanks reduces the load weight of EFT...



And it still carries the same missile load and you simply can't deny that!




kingdurgaking said:


> Finally with weapons and fuel tanks increases the RCS of the fighters tremendously... enough to have MKI to have a competitive edge because of its powerful radars...



When you keep ignoring that MKI will still have the clearly bigger RCS and will be detected by EFs radar way above the 160Km detection range it has for normal fighters.
Not to forget that you are talking about these maximum load configs, a normal A2A config contains just a single external fuel tank and 6 AAMs.


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## sancho

PRATEEK said:


> Really , or it's other way round . If i remember correctly you claimed something for *all* MRCA jets



 Then read that quote again, "several others", not "all" and I even stated before that Gripen E/F have similar on offer, but those you claimed has not (EF, F16IN...), so yes you are distracting from the facts!




PRATEEK said:


> Still ,you can't deny that such tech exists in F16 developed in 2000-02 time frame



I said it to others too, we can speculate about what could be possible, or we take those techs and capabilities to account that are available. That's why I don't take SC, CFTs, active cancelation, or other things to account, that might be developed, or claimed for Rafale, till they are not officially integrated, or available.
And from the infos yourself provided, F16IN don't has these capabilites, that's a fact, you can go on and speculate, but I'm not joining there.




PRATEEK said:


> That is your personal opinion and not necessary to be in coherent to IAF view . You think Rafale is best suited while I think Gripen is much more suited .
> we can continue to argue on that , for years with any conclusion



Of course it's my opinion, but based on facts about Rafale and on the infos available about the needs of our forces, be it IAF, or IN (RFP requirements, official statments...) and still I keep saying that at the end the deal might be done for political reasons with the US. For our forces however, Rafale is the best and obvious choice! 

However, the shortlistings will show what route MoD will go for, politics, or the needs of our forces?


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## sancho

the rafter said:


> Ahead of the price negotiations, a price negotiation committee has to be set up, which is a complex process, *an industry sources told FE on condition of anonymity*. So far, neither has the committee been set up, nor the qualifying vendors been informed. Therefore, there is no possibility of the negotiations starting by the month-end.
> 
> Last week, *Air Chief Marshal PV Naik, the Indian Air Force chief, had announced* that the price negotiation for the deal would begin later this month.



As always these unnamed sources, why the media can't simply wait and see? The next 2 - 3 weeks should give us more infos and not only speculations.


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## Agnostic_Indian

luckyyy said:


> Gripen with 3000kg internal fuel will be having the same range as that of any other twine engine fighter with 6000kg internal fuel..
> also with a 5000kg payload is well enough to carry weapons , missiles and a external fuel tank...take a note that to extend range , a twine engine will be required to carry two drop tanks as compare to only one by Gripen...


what about high altitude performance and TWR of single engine aircraft compared to twins engine aircrafts.
also consider that LCA mk 2 will be of same class of GRIPEN so why not go for a fightr stands between LCA and mki.pakistan also test life GRIPEN and they says it's not upto the mark.


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## KEETARP

sancho said:


> but those you claimed has not (EF, F16IN...), so yes you are distracting from the facts!
> 
> sancho wrote in earlier post - Lets sum up the facts once again! SPECTRA has interferometry techs to not only detect threats, but also geolocate them



Rubbish , 
from one of your previous post -
http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/4347-mrca-news-discussions-290.html#post1525753

Even though i mentioned it in my post , but either you didn't read or ,turned a blind eye to ignore facts . That too from one of your links .
Any ways here is article again with red highlighted part - 






Period 





> I said it to others too, we can speculate about what could be possible, or we take those techs and capabilities to account that are available. That's why I don't take SC, CFTs, active cancelation, or other things to account, that might be developed, or claimed for Rafale, till they are not officially integrated, or available.



Add lack of 
uprated engine , 
Towed decoy 
Helmet mounted display
DIRCM 
Lack of 2 way datalink capability on Meteor . 
Less tha 800 trm on AESA 
no anti-radiation missile 





> And from the infos yourself provided, F16IN don't has these capabilites, that's a fact, you can go on and speculate, but I'm not joining there.



Counter-busted from your link only . That to recent link .
one pic above 





> Of course it's my opinion, but based on facts about Rafale and on the infos available about the needs of our forces, be it IAF, or IN (RFP requirements, official statments...) and still I keep saying that at the end the deal might be done for political reasons with the US. For our forces however, Rafale is the best and obvious choice!
> 
> However, the shortlistings will show what route MoD will go for, politics, or the needs of our forces?



What is need/Req of IAF , kindly share it with substantial links . Not interested in your logic/opinion or analysis.

Still you haven't answered my questions , this is 3rd time I am asking to explain . You claimed some accuracy fraction for DASS and PIRATE . .... Remember . Link below 
http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/4347-mrca-news-discussions-290.html#post1526165


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## KEETARP

localoca said:


> what is so stunning? two old design fighter, one design dated back to the 1960s...



One is front line fighter of US NAVY and Australian Air-force , and will remain for atleast 2 decades more .

Second one is Front line fighter of China's PLAF and IAF .

By your Flag , I dont see your country flying more recent or advanced jet as your front-line fighter .

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## Archie

Guys, i would request u to discuss the pros and cons of MKI on another thread 

By the way mmrca aircraft has a totally different role from MKI , it is suposed to have low RCS and good ground attack capability and decent range though not as high as MKI which is around 5500 Km with drop tanks

Let me tell u another thing
MKI is not exactly gods gift to military aviation , if it was then we would have gone ahead with purchasing 450 MKI to replace both Mig 21,Mig23 and Mig27 as u guys know that at one time India operated over 600 of these 3 fighters 

But we are buying 270 MKI , 124 LCA and 126 MMRCA

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## the rafter

sancho said:


> As always these unnamed sources, why the media can't simply wait and see? The next 2 - 3 weeks should give us more infos and not only speculations.


I agree! But can the media do? Its the MoD thats taking so much time and no press release of any progress, the media will speculate or sell rumors.


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## localoca

PRATEEK said:


> One is front line fighter of US NAVY and Australian Air-force , and will remain for atleast 2 decades more .


 But its an OLD plane Design... heck its even older than colored pictures...



 is this 1960's design you want to keep in service till 2040?..


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## Paan Singh

localoca said:


> But its an OLD plane Design... heck its even older than colored pictures...
> 
> 
> 
> is this 1960's design you want to keep in service till 2040?..


 
its not only design,but also machinery works


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## Dash

localoca said:


> But its an OLD plane Design... heck its even older than colored pictures...
> 
> 
> 
> is this 1960's design you want to keep in service till 2040?..



whats old about it, care to explain???


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## KEETARP

localoca said:


> But its an OLD plane Design... heck its even older than colored pictures...
> 
> 
> 
> is this 1960's design you want to keep in service till 2040?..



K , now i get you and your purpose of posting . 
thanks for reminding . I am out of discussion


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## luckyyy

*Gripen unit cost US$ 60 million .
total life cycle cost $166 million...*

*Boeder says that the figures shows us that the cost of the acquisition, without weapons,for 48 aircraft. The figures are taken directly from the RBI replies.* For Gripen NG it is about NOK 20 billion of NOK 24 billion (in 2008 - NOK) fixed price given in the RBI survey. The remaining NOK 4 billion (in 2008-NOK) for the Gripen NG are additional costs that are completelynecessary to develop the equipment of the plane to be a multirole-fighter to be conformal to NATO standards and requirements.This equipment is described in the RBI survey of the Gripen NG at apartly uncertain price. The cost of this equipment for the JSF areincluded in the price. It is important to say that *it is the price for 48 aircraft taken from the offer of the suppliers, without the uncertainty calculation.*

Report of External Auditors

Translation of text PDF Report 14-nov-2008 paragraph 5.2.1 and 5.2.5.To get the US$ divide exactly by 7 today (currency rate 6,9888 NOK = 1 US$) based on some fixed parameters:

http://www.nordensnyheter.no/default.aspx?Id=1715


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## luckyyy

Price 20 Billion fixed and 100% certain; options/special update to Norwegian specs 4 Billion and 95% certain%: total 24 billion = 0,5 Billion NOK pro Gripen unit = US 71,4 million all-in weapon system price. This price is compared by the Airforce project team with the much
lower costprice of L-M. So comparing apples with berries.* And here the price of the Gripen is confirmed to be NOK 24 billion (or US$ 71 million for one Gripen NG) all-in weapon system price and LCC offered 30 years and 95% guaranteed of around 55 Billion NOK (= US$ 8 billion).*


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## angeldemon_007

*US hopes geopolitics can help land India jet deal*

WASHINGTON &#8212; Two US aerospace firms are jostling with global rivals to win a $11-12 billion Indian fighter jet contract, hoping a nascent US-India strategic partnership can help seal the deal.
As defense contracts go, Delhi's bid to replace 126 aging MiG fighters is large, but hardly a show stopper.
Still, in an industry where billion dollar contracts are commonplace, the project is turning heads.
"It is not the price," explained Ron Somers, president of the US-India Business Council, "the $11 billion is great, but this is geopolitical."
India, after 50 years of depending on Russian fighter technology, is casting around for a new partner.
To play that role US firms Lockheed Martin and Boeing are pitched against Europe's Eurofighter, France's Dassault, Sweden's Saab and Russia's RSK MiG.
Whichever company and country wins, the deal could help cement military and strategic ties with one of the world's fastest emerging powers.
"You are talking about aligning how you work together for the next two generations," Somers told AFP.
Experts say that the Indian Air Force, by looking beyond Russia's MiG-21s, could remove one of the last vestiges of Cold War power politics and set the stage for a revamp of India's military outlook.
"The supply of the MiG-21 established the Soviet Union as a close ally of the Indian government in the '60s and it led to the 1971 Indo-Soviet friendship treaty," said Sunil Dasgupta, an India military expert and lecturer at the University System of Maryland.
"Whichever aircraft is chosen is going to be the mainstay of the Indian Air Force for maybe 30 years."
The training and maintenance contacts that come with that could prove invaluable in boosting ties with India's powerful military.
"Whoever supplies this kind of equipment is able to get a very deep 'in' into the system," said Dasgupta, who recently co-authored a book on modernizing India's military.
Somers -- who is helping lobby for Lockheed Martin and Boeing bids -- hopes the US trump card will be rapidly developing strategic and military ties between the two countries.
Relations between Delhi and Washington, characterized by mistrust and occasional hostility during the Cold War, were reset by former US president Bill Clinton in the 1990s and invigorated by his successor George W. Bush.
During a visit to India last year President Barack Obama pushed further still, backing India's quest for a permanent UN Security Council seat.
He also announced the United States would sell $5 billion worth of military equipment to India, including ten Boeing C-17 transporters and General Electric 404 engines.
But the two nations remain at odds over close US relations with India's rival Pakistan and military ties are limited.
"If the Indians were to chose and American product then they are going to have to make a political commitment to the United States as well," Dasgupta said explaining some of the program's past delays.
"You can see that the Indians are skittish about making that kind of political commitment without the United States stepping up first."
But Boeing, which is offering its F/A-18IN Super Hornet, expects the delay-plagued project to take a decisive step forward as soon as next month, when a shortlist of contenders could be drawn up.
"Indian military officials have been quoted recently saying they want to make an initial downselect decision possibly as soon as next month," said Boeing spokeswoman Mary Ann Brett.
Whatever the technical benefits of Boeing's Super Hornet or Lockheed's F-16, mechanics and design will only go so far.
One of the key stumbling blocks in any US bid will be reaching an agreement on how much sensitive technology will be transferred to India, and how much can be manufactured inside the country.
The problem, Dasgupta said, is that "Americans want to sell a product and the Indians want access to technology."
That means diplomats and politicians, rather than engineers and military planners may ultimately decide who wins and loses.
"We believe we have met the terms of the RFP (request for proposal)," said Lockheed's Jack Giese. "All we can do now is present (the project) in the field, and provide the info they need."
"After that it becomes a government to government question."

AFP: US hopes geopolitics can help land India jet deal


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## razgriz19

ok now that france is using rafale in combat over libyan skies.... so do any of you think that could help france to bag this deal?? or atleast take rafale to the end??


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## perplexed

^^^ You are being naive here. Libya has no SAMs. I dont think our neighbours are that dumb. What EFs and Rafales are facing down there is far from india's situation. 
Mayb they can divert some planes over pk and we may have a deal.  LOL! Just joking....


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## SpArK

Rafale C (6 Mica EM/IR A2A missiles, 1250L tanks), taking off from Saint Dizier AF Base, ADA over Libya. 



*Man, imagine if Libya had actually purchased those Rafale fighters France wanted to sell them 2 years ago*

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## the rafter

Here's additional info on Rafale used in Libya:





Rafale loaded with AASM bombs





Rafale C loaded with Mica 6 mica missiles for Air defense






Rafale loaded with Reco-NG pod

Typical weapon load was :
- 6 Mica EM/IR + 3 supersonic 1250L tanks for the Air defense Rafale
*- 6 mica EM/IR + 1 Reco-NG pod + 2 subsonic 2000L tanks for the recce planes.
- 2 mica IR + 4 AASM bombs (250 kg) + 2 subsonic 2000L tank for the CAS planes *

Source : Rafale News: Operation Harmattan : First pictures of the Rafale which were engaged in Libya (French Ministry of Defense).

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## the rafter

Since Rafale was used before the US & UK Tomahawk cruise missiles struck on Libyan SAM locations, I wonder what RCS signal it generated on the ground radar systems? 
Especially with the fixed refueling probe, since many here and elsewhere consider it as one of the sources of RCS. (Doesn't look like at least in this case)



> At 05h45PM, the French MoD revealed that one of those fighters shot at a military libyan vehicule.
> Edit 1 : Qatar TV, Al Jazzeera is reporting that at least 4 Libyan tanks would have been detroyed by French fighters.
> Edit 2 : It is now confirmed that a Rafale B from the Gascogne squadron has attaked a Libyan tank column with its AASM bombs detroying 4 of them.


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## the rafter

Here's so called DQ's new post:

*UK slams Typhoon vying for India&#8217;s biggest deal*
Published: Sunday, Mar 20, 2011, 22:57 IST 
By Suman Sharma | Place: New Delhi | Agency: DNA

Even as India inches closer to finalise its biggest defence deal, United Kingdom&#8217;s audit watchdog has come out with a damning report about the Eurofighter Typhoon, which is one of the six contenders for 126 multi-role combat aircraft replacing the ageing MiGs.

As per National Audit Office (NAO), the single-seat fighter aircraft suffers from problems like spares unavailability and rising costs.
The aircraft will not have full multi-role capability for some years, the report said attributing its problems to absence of a single decision-maker at the top and delayed decision making leading to delayed delivery

Also, the Typhoon is still in the process of acquiring air-to-ground attack capability and also the tranche-3B agreement, between its four partner nations is yet to be signed, required for its full final production.

Spares availability for aircraft support and maintenance, as per NAO, is shared by the four partner nations, independent of each other. But the contracts which are collaborative face problems for the supply of spares and repair of equipment, resulting in the inability to meet target for annual flying hours for the aircraft.

The Typhoon programme, which has four partner nations namely UK, Italy, Spain and Germany, was conceived in the 1980s during the Cold War, and has around 70 Typhoons already in service, protecting the air space around the United Kingdom and the Falkland Islands. The aircraft has already been exported to Saudi Arabia and Austria.

The technical evaluation of all the six competing vendors for the IAF&#8217;s 126 MMRCA concluded last year, after which the report is with the ministry of defence for review and a decision is awaited.

To reduce costs, the Royal Airforce (RAF) has cut down its Typhoon squadrons and therefore its flying hours, but the department managing the programme has prioritised pilot training on air defence roles which is currently its key task, the report said.

On the funding, the report said, &#8220;The department is confident that it can deliver the full range of support for the reduced number of aircraft within the originally approved figure of £13.1 billion. The number of aircraft being bought has fallen by a third and compared on a like for like basis the unit cost of support per aircraft has risen by approximately a third.

Typhoon&#8217;s multi-role capability will be further enhanced by planned upgrades and integration of new weapons to make it swing-role - which means the aircraft will have the flexibility to switch between missions while still in the air and so respond to changing operational demands. The multi-role swing-role is an important requirement in the IAF deal tender.

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_uk-slams-typhoon-vying-for-indias-biggest-deal_1522292


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## saumyasupratik

Does the Rafale have any air to surface missile that is comparable in performance with the Kh-29 or the AGM-65 Maverick?If not is a air to surface missile planned for being integrated on the Rafale except the SCALP.Is the AS-30L compatible with the Rafale?


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## the rafter

*Ajai Shukla: Antony, pull the plug on the MMRCA*

Indian Air Force chief, Air Chief Marshall PV Naik, has surprised everyone by declaring more than once that the ministry of defence was just days away from deciding the winner of the keenly-watched global tender to sell the IAF 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) for an estimated Rs 42,000 crore. Naik was evidently hustling his boss, Defence Minister AK Antony, into an early decision, illustrating how narrow service considerations often trump the national interest. For Antony, who has indicated that the contract would be finalised before March 2012, these are the last few months to reconsider what will be a giant white elephant.

Antony cannot be swept away by the fighter pilot community&#8217;s simplistic argument that credible defence against China and Pakistan depends upon building up 42 fighter squadrons, up from the 32 squadrons that currently exist today. Instead, he must take a broader view, considering three key questions. Firstly, is victory in the air in modern warfare about mere aircraft numbers or about capabilities? Increasingly, digital networking and command and surveillance systems are significant force multipliers, allowing one squadron to do the job of three. But those networks involve top-secret source codes that no developer parts with, not even for Rs 42,000 crore. If the IAF has to be, as it often insists, a fully integrated and networked force, it must develop its own fighters, complete with network systems.
Given that truth, and India&#8217;s evolving ability to build its own fighters, Antony&#8217;s second question should be: given our limits on defence spending, would it not make better long-term sense to invest the MMRCA billions in enhancing our flimsy infrastructure for aeronautical development? Would wisdom not lie in accepting a 32-squadron air force for some years in order to develop ourselves as a comprehensive aeronautical engineering powerhouse? Beyond the lip service paid to indigenisation, the 2011-12 defence budget allocates a mere Rs 4,628 crore for the military&#8217;s capital expenditure on R&D; while allocating Rs 27,322 crore for the capital purchase of aircraft and aero engines. The project to develop an Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA), with custom-designed plug-ins to the IAF&#8217;s command networks, has so far been allocated a paltry Rs 90 crore.
A $10 billion infusion would fund a world-class infrastructure base of academic and training institutions; facilities for fundamental research; the upgrading of our ancillary aerospace industrial base; the building of test ranges; and adequately-funded programmes to plug our capability gaps, especially in aircraft engines, radars and missiles. A decade down the line, with the AMCA reaching completion, India would never again look abroad for a medium fighter. With the evident success of the indigenous Tejas programme reinforced by the forthcoming experience of co-developing the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) with Russia, India&#8217;s aircraft designers and manufacturers need to be supported with all the financial muscle that the MoD can muster.

Thirdly, Antony must consider the question of insurance. And he should ensure with his US counterpart that, if our security environment suddenly deteriorates 3-5 years down the road, the IAF would have access to a better combat aircraft than any of the MMRCA candidates. By then the 5th-generation US-built F-35 Joint Strike Fighter will be entering operational service. Unlike the 4th-generation MMRCA contenders, the F-35 will remain a cutting-edge fighter for another four decades.

Like children running heedlessly towards a cliff, the MoD and the IAF seem deaf to all warnings, even to the multiple tales of woe emerging about the MMRCA contenders. In a report commissioned by the UK MoD (&#8220;Management of the Typhoon Project&#8221;, released on 28 February, 2011) the British CAG points out that the Eurofighter Typhoon, which was conceived as an air-to-air fighter, will have full ground attack capability only by 2018. &#8220;Problems with spares availability&#8221; has meant that the Typhoon &#8220;has had to take parts from some of its Typhoon aircraft to make other aircraft available to fly&#8221;. Despite that, the Typhoon has fallen 13 per cent short of its target in annual flying hours, permitting only limited training by RAF pilots. Between Nov 09 and Aug 10, just &#8220;15 per cent of pilots had sufficient training hours to perform tasks beyond air defence&#8221;. The report says that it will take another five years for the situation to be remedied.

It says something about the IAF&#8217;s attitude towards indigenisation that it takes careful cognisance of Indian CAG reports critical of homegrown systems like the Dhruv and the Tejas. But when it comes to a foreign aircraft, the criticism is not taken seriously.

It is this tolerance for foreign folly that has made India the world&#8217;s largest arms importer, having bought a staggering 9 per cent of all weaponry sold internationally between 2006&#8211;10 (figures: Stockholm International Peace Research Institute). Unwilling to back our own defence industry, the MoD seems comfortable with the idea of bailing out others. Earlier this month, Sweden&#8217;s defence minister announced that, without an Indian or Brazilian order, his air force would not develop the new Gripen fighter till at least 2018. But, trailing his coattails before New Delhi, he declared that it could be done by 2013-14 if a foreign order came in.

It is not too late for Antony to pull the plug on the MMRCA. The cancellation of that tender will be infused with a hugely positive buzz if it is accompanied by a public declaration to invest significant funds into fast-tracking the AMCA project. This single step would galvanise India&#8217;s aerospace sector, including the industrial eco-system that must underpin fighter development. For Antony, it would be a personal triumph, burnishing his nationalistic credentials and highlighting his emergence as a defence minister with the vision to end India&#8217;s dependence on foreign arms purchases.


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## SpArK

*The French MOD has released a few pictures of the Rafale departure, Saturday morning just before the first Air patrols over Benghazi, Libya.:..
*

Rafale News: French Air Force official video and pictures of Saturday 19th


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## SpArK



Reactions: Like Like:
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## luckyyy

for the last few weeks , the voices has slowed down..


*has india selected MIG-35 ?*


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## angeldemon_007

> A $10 billion infusion would fund a world-class infrastructure base of academic and training institutions; facilities for fundamental research; the upgrading of our ancillary aerospace industrial base; the building of test ranges; and adequately-funded programmes to plug our capability gaps, especially in aircraft engines, radars and missiles.
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Firstly, is victory in the air in modern warfare about mere aircraft numbers or about capabilities? Increasingly, digital networking and command and surveillance systems are significant force multipliers, allowing one squadron to do the job of three. But those networks involve top-secret source codes that no developer parts with, not even for Rs 42,000 crore.


This sounds great but setting up these infrastructure and all, alone would take 5-6 years. Its true we are spending too much on this and we need to develop our own fighter jets and that number is not that important and quality is important.
But we must not forget that most of our fleet comprise of old russian planes many of whom even crossed their maximum service life. We are also upgrading mirage and jaguars to increase their life.
Also we have a very slow production rate.

Now considering this all, think we would definitely need these MMRCA. Not to mention IAF is asking not much, if you go by the equation that adding strength of Chinese AF and PAF, then asking for just 45 squadron is a reasonable request. You have to have a definite number of fighters.

Also, AMCA project has just started, they will receive around 2 billion$ once it is sanctioned and nobody said that will be it. If they will need more, then they will get it.

I think after LCA all the parties, ie. govt., IAF and HAL/ADA are on the same page and even IN is supporting AMCA.


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## angeldemon_007

The Role of the Eurofighter | SLDInfo


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## sancho

PRATEEK said:


> Even though i mentioned it in my post , but either you didn't read or ,turned a blind eye to ignore facts...



Not really, I just have no time to explain you the same things again and again, especially because it's evident that you refuse the facts just with false assumtions.

Locating a threat = having basic direction and bearing, which is neccesary to deploy countermesures like chaff, flare, or jamming.

*GEO*locating a threat = having accurate target data, that can be used to guide weapons.

The early is nothing special and any EWS can do it, the latter needs additional sensor infos (interferometry for example) and like the official sources confirmed, the F16 Block 60 with the Northrop EWS has that capability to GEOlocate, while the Raytheon EWS on F16IN don't have it! You disagree here to the sources you provided yourself to back your earlier points, just to not admit that Rafale has an advantage here! 


Search for the summary of the carnegy report that I made, which stated several points of the operational requirements of IAF, often with references to the MMRCA RFP. Or the chindits article that I provided here several times, that also is refering to the RFP, or the latest RFI for stand off weapons, which confirms once again what I stated all the time, IAF is looking to increase their strike capability and MMRCA will have a focus for this role as well!

The RFP also makes clear the importance of ToT and offsets, which makes the Europeans of course favourable, especially when you have only 1 country to negotiate with like it's the case with Rafale, instead of several like it's the case with EF, or Gripen.

IAF officials numerously stated that they prefer fast induction and licence production of the MMRCAs, which makes Rafale the obvious choice again. IAF has long and good history with Dassault fighters and French licence productions, the commonality to Mirage 2000s makes it easier to train pilots and ground crews, also eases maintence and logistics. Not to forget that Dassault is offering us fast production of Rafales sins 2007 and that the Rafale F3+ is the first that will be ready developed and in operational service in the version that is offered in MMRCA. All these fits perfectly to the IAF requirement, because we can induct Rafale early, fast and with ease!

IN issued an RFP for a carrier fighter, most likely for a CATOBAR carrier, with only Rafale, F18SH beeing developed for this and operational. The advantage here should be a nobrainer!


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## sancho

the rafter said:


> I agree! But can the media do? Its the MoD thats taking so much time and no press release of any progress, the media will speculate or sell rumors.


 
I take that actually as professional behaviour of IAF, because they don't give out these infos to the media, which of course will be important to the loosing vendors as well. I don't even expect an official reason why some would be shortlisted and why some are not, but at least we can get a hint in which direction the competition goes.
Media wants to sell their news, that's why they speculate. Some of these unnamed sources might have good points, but most of them are made up just to hype their articles, that's why we have to take the news carfully and check how reliable they are. Especially in MMRCA, we saw that several vendors use the media for their own PR, or even spread wrong infos about others.




the rafter said:


> Since Rafale was used before the US & UK Tomahawk cruise missiles struck on Libyan SAM locations, I wonder what RCS signal it generated on the ground radar systems?
> Especially with the fixed refueling probe, since many here and elsewhere consider it as one of the sources of RCS. (Doesn't look like at least in this case)



The fact that Rafale was used to enter their airspace before CM strikes and without dedicated EW aircrafts like the F18 Growlers, showes the capability of SPECTRA and that the French forces are more than confident about it. The opponent fighters might not be an issue and they have no AWACS either, but the ground radars and SAMs are a threat for any fighter, that's why the US deployed the Growlers and F16 CJs, or UK used their Tornados, to have capable protection in SEAD, although they are using anti radiation missiles from longer range.
In terms of RCS you also have to keep in mind, that the Rafales so far were deployed from bases in France, that's why they had to carry so many fuel tanks, which obviously increased the RCS.

Also interesting, Rafale is used in recce, air defense and strike missions, while EF is only deployed in air defense and the Tornados makes the strikes. Just like the F18 Growlers are deployed only for EW and SEAD, while F15s are in air defense. 

So much for multi role capabilites!


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## SpArK

No griping about the Gripen


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## bhagat

*F-18 and Eurofighter was never considered earlier for MMRCA Tender : Offical
*

What could be quite a revelation ,Indian air force official have informed idrw.org ,that until end of 2005 , F-18 and Euro-fighter was never considered for MMRCA Tender since they did not fit into air forces requirements then , Initially Air force wanted aircraft in medium weight category that included offers from French on Mirage-2000-5 ,Lockheed martin with their F-16 C/D and Russian offer of upgraded Mig-29SMT .

But opening of the Tender to multiple vendors by then Defence Minister Pranab Mukherji in UPA-1 Government insured that tender became larger ,and Medium Weight category was no longer mandatory since heavier class fighter aircrafts entered the race .

Official also told that opening of the tender surely lead to further delays and set back whole process by 5 years ,which was considerable amount of time lost to procure aircrafts for a shrinking air force fleet , he also pointed out that Request for Proposal (RFP) actually favoured single engine fighters due to its emphasis on life cycle costs,since life cycle costs of a single engine fighter are substantially lower than that of twin engine fighter.

With Pak-FA and AMCA 5th generation fighter deal all done and work on them have already began and IAF is all set to procure and operate them by turn of this decade , official admitted that MMRCA tender and the aircrafts have lost all its shine and will be a second fiddle to MKI and PAK-FA in near future in IAF fleet .

F-18 and Eurofighter was never considered earlier for MMRCA Tender : Offical


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## SpArK

*JAS 39 intercept Lithuanian C-27 in first ever NATO-Sweden Baltic Air Policing handover training*​


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## localoca

luckyyy said:


> for the last few weeks , the voices has slowed down..
> 
> 
> *has india selected MIG-35 ?*


 I think the idea of TOT will blind the Indians into buying yet another Russian second tier Tech air plane...just so they can call it Mig-35 Mki...


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## angeldemon_007

> I think the idea of TOT will blind the Indians into buying yet another Russian second tier Tech air plane...just so they can call it Mig-35 Mki...


Well atleast its better than the 3rd tier that you use.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## localoca

angeldemon_007 said:


> Well atleast its better than the 3rd tier that you use.


 ... the J-11B its at the very least on par with the MKi...


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## perplexed

angeldemon_007 said:


> Well atleast its better than the 3rd tier that you use.


 
stop taking potshots dude. Its okay. You need not reply always. This will at least keep the forum half clean.


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## tanlixiang28776

localoca said:


> ... the J-11B its at the very least on par with the MKi...


 
Its not our business. Let them do whatever they want

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## sancho

SpArK said:


> *JAS 39 intercept Lithuanian C-27 in first ever NATO-Sweden Baltic Air Policing handover training*​



If air policing is the aim, why does it fly with a targeting pod?


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## SpArK

sancho said:


> If* air policing is the aim*, why does it fly with a targeting pod?



defence.professionals | defpro.com



> According to the scenario, transport aircraft of the Lithuanian Air Force C-27 &#8220;Spartan&#8221; will simulate loss of communication over the Baltic Sea



Baltic States will host training event of NATO and Swedish air assets | GlobalPost

DVIDS - News - NATO and Swedish jets cooperate to enhance safety above the Baltic Sea


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## dbc

sancho said:


> The fact that Rafale was used to enter their airspace before CM strikes and without dedicated EW aircrafts like the F18 Growlers, showes the capability of SPECTRA and that the French forces are more than confident about it. The opponent fighters might not be an issue and they have no AWACS either, but the ground radars and SAMs are a threat for any fighter, that's why the US deployed the Growlers and F16 CJs, or UK used their Tornados, to have capable protection in SEAD, although they are using anti radiation missiles from longer range.
> In terms of RCS you also have to keep in mind, that the Rafales so far were deployed from bases in France, that's why they had to carry so many fuel tanks, which obviously increased the RCS.


 
I strongly recommend a spell checker and while you're at it check your facts. The strike that repelled a Libyan armored column advance into Benghazi on Day one involved fifteen jets from USAF, US Marines(Harrier), USN (Growler) in addition to French and British assets. 

See below excerpts from transcripts of Joint Staff Vice Admiral Bill Gortney's press conference on Day 1. The attack that the press mistakenly attributed to the French actually involved forces from nearly all coalition countries.



> Shown here is a representation of coalition strikes against Gadhafis ground maneuver forces about 10 miles south of Benghazi.* Fifteen U.S. Air Force and Marine Corps aircraft participated in these attacks, as well as aircraft from France and Great Britain. They were backed up by U.S. Navy EA-18G Growlers providing electronic warfare support. *
> 
> Full battle reports from these strikes are still coming in, but we judge these also to have been quite successful at the halting regimes ground movement in this region. The highlighted box are some still shots from the Harriers weapons systems video.
> 
> Benghazi is not completely safe from attack, but it is certainly under less threat than it was yesterday. We believe his forces are under significant stress and suffering from both isolation and a good deal of confusion.



Defense.gov News Transcript: DOD News Briefing by Vice Adm. Gortney on Operation Odyssey Dawn


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## sancho

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> I strongly recommend a spell checker and while you're at it check your facts. The strike that repelled a Libyan armored column advance into Benghazi on Day one involved fifteen jets from USAF, US Marines(Harrier), USN (Growler) in addition to French and British assets.


 
That was the CAS for the rebels in Benghazi, but French fighters did CAP, recon and strike missions before that and without the support of the Growlers:



> ...*10:50 a.m*.: French President Nicolas Sarkozy spoke to the press from Paris just before 11 a.m. EST. He confirmed that there would be U.N.-mandated military action to implement a no-fly zone over Libya in response to the violence and broken cease-fire in the country.
> 
> Sarkozy said that all participants in Saturday's Paris summit, including Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, British Prime Minister David Cameron, an African Union representative, a European Union representative and Arab leaders, endorsed the plan.
> 
> *French state officials have confirmed the presence of French fighter jets flying over Libya*, and Sarkozy said it is "our duty to respond to [the Libyan peoples'] anguished appeal....in the name of the universal conscience."...



Developing: UN implements no-fly zone over Libya, French aircraft confirmed | The Raw Story




> *Details on the Rafale mission over Libya*
> 
> ...*11h00 AM* 4 Rafale C (Provence squadron) armed with mica missiles left the Saint Dizier Air base to enforce the No Flight Zone over Libya (UN resolution 1973)
> 
> *11h10 AM * A patrol of 2 more Rafale B with a Reco-NG pod left the Dizier Air base for a recce mission over Libya.
> 
> *02h30 PM* 2 mirage 2000D (Ardennes squadron / Nancy Air Base) escorted by 2 mirage 2000-5 (Cigognes squadron / Dijon Air Base) as well as 2 Rafale with AASM bombs rejoin Libya *for CAS operations*



Rafale News: Details on the Rafale mission over Libya


So the joined CAS mission with US fighters were later that day!
The first US aircraft over Libyan airspace were B2 bombers, that followed the Tomahawk strikes. The first strikes of British Tornados were made with Storm Shadow cruise missiles, from distance and some sources say French fighters did the same with the similar Scalp missiles as well, but I didn't see such a config yet. 

However, any news what caused the F15 crash? The pilots are safe right?


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## sancho

> *Arms dealer for French firm barred*
> 
> NEW DELHI: In a new twist to the ongoing competition for the country's biggest defence contract worth over Rs 45,000 crore, *the Indian Air Force has blacklisted the country manager* of one of the contenders for the contract.
> 
> Officials in the Air Force and the Ministry of Defence have both claimed that the move would not scuttle the $10 billion contract for the MMRCA (Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft).
> 
> The move to blacklist P V Rao, country manager of Dassault Aviation, is being linked to a bribery scandal in Bangalore during the recently concluded Aero India exhibition. *Interestingly, it was Rao who blew the whistle on Wing Commander A K Thakur demanding Rs 20,000 from Rao for giving Rafale, his company's fighter jet that's competing in the MMRCA contract, a vantage parking slot at the Yelahanka airbase during the exhibition. Thakur was caught by a senior MoD official while accepting bribe.*
> 
> The IAF last week notified both the MoD and the French embassy about its decision to declare Rao persona non grata. The decision would mean that Rao would not be able to participate in any further meetings. Rao also won't be able to enter the air headquarters in New Delhi.
> 
> Dassault's Rafale and EADS' Eurofighter are believed to be the two front-runners in the technical evaluation of the MMRCA contract, which is probably the world's biggest open tender defence contract now. The air force is holding a court of inquiry in Bangalore, in the wake of Rao's whistle-blower operation which netted the air force officer. But the air force has its own doubts about the episode.
> 
> *The air force is irked by the fact that Rao kept it in the dark about its officer asking for bribe and instead got a senior IAS officer to expose the corruption. A senior officer claimed Rao deliberately didn't follow known procedures, which was to inform IAF senior officers. It's also possible that IAF establishment didn't inspire Rao's confidence.*
> 
> When contacted, a Dassault representative refused to discuss the matter. This is the third instance where wrongdoings have been detected in the MMRCA contract process.



Arms dealer for French firm barred - The Times of India


Same issue but reported by livefist:



> *French Govt Firefights Blacklist Of Dassault Exec*
> 
> The French Embassy in Delhi and Dassault Aviation's office in Paris are working to firefight a nightmarish development (reported in the Times of India today, see previous post) in which Dassault's face in India, Posina V Rao has reportedly *been blacklisted by the Indian Air Force.*
> 
> I did a little poking around with my sources in the MoD and here's what's turned up. Mr Rao raised a formal complaint during or shortly after the Aero India 2011 show with Satyajeet Rajan, joint secretary in charge of exports at the MoD's department of defence production, the nodal agency overseeing the air show. When the complaint was processed onward to the IAF, a response came back *suggesting that the impropriety of the accused IAF officer* -- Wg Cdr AK Thakur -- *should have been flagged to IAF authorities at the show, and not to the MoD. Interestingly, the MoD doesn't appear to have taken any formal view on the Dassault executive, nor is it commenting on the IAF's decision.*...



Livefist: French Govt Firefights Blacklist Of Dassault Exec


It seems like IAF feels embarrassed that this came out and they couldn't do anything against it, so now *they* let the whistle blower feel it too. MoD on the other side seems to be happy with Mr. Rao's behavior, that's why there is no official action from their side against him, let alone Dassault.


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## jha




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## sancho

*Eurofighter news:*



> *No Eurofighter sale talks with Indonesia: Britain*
> 
> JAKARTA, March 23, 2011 (AFP) - Britain on Wednesday denied reports that it was in talks with Indonesia about selling the country Eurofighter Typhoon aircraft.
> The Times newspaper earlier this month reported that Jakarta had informally approached Britain over the potential acquisition of up to 24 warplanes, worth around 5 billion pounds ($8.1 billion dollars) in total.
> The previous Labour government banned defence exports to Indonesia in 1999 amid claims it had used British-made Hawk aircraft to bomb civilians in East Timor.
> There is no discussion at the moment with Indonesia about the Typhoon, minister for international security strategy Gerald Howarth told AFP at the Jakarta International Defence Dialogue summit.
> But he he did not rule out the possibility of forging future defence deals with Indonesia.
> I should be exploring any specific interest that the Indonesians may have, he said at the three day meeting, which opened Wednesday.
> Human rights group Amnesty International accuses Indonesia of rights violations including police torture and restrictions on the media.
> Eurofighters were grounded in several countries last year due to problems with ejector seats after a crash killed a Saudi pilot.



No Eurofighter sale talks with Indonesia: Britain


A report about the first EF sorties over Libya (CAP with 2 x fuel tanks, 4 x AIM 120 and 4 x ASRAAM):

Third night of airstrikes on Libya as RAF Typhoons go into action | British Forces News


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## GORKHALI



Reactions: Like Like:
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## jha




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## jha




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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> And your point is?
> 
> The earlier with internal fuel only, the latter with the external fuel, so as I said, with total fuel it has longer range than the MKI.
> 
> And it still carries the same missile load and you simply can't deny that!
> 
> When you keep ignoring that MKI will still have the clearly bigger RCS and will be detected by EFs radar way above the 160Km detection range it has for normal fighters.
> Not to forget that you are talking about these maximum load configs, a normal A2A config contains just a single external fuel tank and 6 AAMs.


 
My point is multirack missiling expanding to 14 hardpoints was possible with MKI exceeding EFT... while EFT with external fuel of 3 tanks (see BBC it carries minimum 2 tanks from italy to LIBYA for just 1 hour of mission with mid air refuelling) .. which proves that fuel fraction will be poor for EFT compared to MKI...

while typhoon with wet points will carry only 10 missiles but MKI can carry 14 missiles with 10 Archers atleast... which you cant deny..

And i dont deny MKI has bigger RCS ... while EFT with external fuel tanks and missile will have a huge RCS enough for MKI to detect it at 160 KM and can launch Archer way before EFT can lauch...

same applies in case of Rafale... with Brahmos it is already outpacing Rafale... which Rafale can never carry... 


At any angle MKI outclass both EFT and Rafale.... the only Fighter that can come close is F-15E...


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## dbc

sancho said:


> That was the CAS for the rebels in Benghazi, but French fighters did CAP, recon and strike missions before that and without the support of the Growlers:
> 
> 
> 
> Developing: UN implements no-fly zone over Libya, French aircraft confirmed | The Raw Story
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rafale News: Details on the Rafale mission over Libya
> 
> 
> So the joined CAS mission with US fighters were later that day!
> The first US aircraft over Libyan airspace were B2 bombers, that followed the Tomahawk strikes. The first strikes of British Tornados were made with Storm Shadow cruise missiles, from distance and some sources say French fighters did the same with the similar Scalp missiles as well, but I didn't see such a config yet.
> 
> However, any news what caused the F15 crash? The pilots are safe right?


 
It is of no interest to me when the Rafale left France, your claim that the Rafale flew into hostile airspace unsupported by other assets remains to be substantiated.

Good job using a spell checker, next assignment learn what CAS means.


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## angeldemon_007

Libya Conflict May Spur Sales of Battle-Proven Eurofighter Jet - Businessweek


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## the rafter

angeldemon_007 said:


> Libya Conflict May Spur Sales of Battle-Proven Eurofighter Jet - Businessweek


 
I don't get how can Eurofighter get a spur in sale just by flying over Libya?
The surface to air missiles (SAM) from Libya have been taken out by Tomahawk missiles and French, UK and US fighter jets. Eurofighter was not a part of A to G operations because Tranche 1 and 2 does not have one, yet. Libya's air force is all but destroyed, so essentially all Eurofighter (with A to A) is doing is fly over Libyan air space.


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## luckyyy

bhagat said:


> *F-18 and Eurofighter was never considered earlier for MMRCA Tender : Offical
> *
> 
> Request for Proposal (RFP) actually favoured single engine fighters due to its emphasis on life cycle costs,since life cycle costs of a single engine fighter are substantially lower than that of twin engine fighter.



on life cycle costs extimates , Gripen going to win , lets see what last time surprises F-16 can bring.....


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## sudhir007

The Telegraph - Calcutta (Kolkata) | Frontpage | Tracking Libya, with eye on fighters

Indias armed forces are closely monitoring the war in Libya despite New Delhis reservations against the Allied intervention because they are in the market to buy the weapons being used to bomb the North African country.

We learnt from Iraq and Afghanistan also and we are watching whats going on  its part of our job. This is what globalisation means, a senior air force officer said, during a discussion here.

Many of the (weapons) platforms that are in the operations (in Libya) are the ones we are evaluating, he added.

Most of all, the Indian Air Force is following the bombing campaign by the US, UK, France and eight other countries because variants of four of the six aircraft that are competing for an estimated $12 billion Indian contract have been deployed by the coalition.

Air Chief Marshal P.V. Naik has said India expects to contract 126 medium multirole combat aircraft by July.

We are watching. We analyse every conflict. We learnt from Iraq and Afghanistan also, a senior air force officer said.

In effect, Libya has become a kind of field firing range for these aircraft to demonstrate their ground-attack capabilities in operational conditions. Even if Libyas air defence is poor, the US has already lost one aircraft  an F-15E Strike Eagle deep strike combat plane.

The Boeing (McDonnell Douglas)-made plane crashed near Benghazi on Monday night, an incident the US officially said was caused by a mechanical fault.

The Strike Eagle is not in the competition for the Indian order. But Boeings F/A-18 Super Hornet is. The Canadian Air Force has deployed an older version of the aircraft, the CA-18 Hornet for Operation Mobile, its name for the offensive in Libya that the US calls Operation Odyssey Dawn.

The bombing run over Libya is believed to have been begun by Frances Rafale aircraft (Operation Harmattan).

The Dassault Aviation-made plane was demonstrated at an airshow in Bangalore last month, as was the Super Hornet, the US (Lockheed Martin) F-16 Super Viper and European consortium EADS Eurofighter Typhoon.
The S-125 Pechora surface-to-air missiles

The Rafales are understood to have bombed a convoy of Muammar Gadaffis troops that was suspected to be headed towards Benghazi with the Storm Shadow stand-off missile, a weapon that can be fired at precise targets from more than 200km away. A mock-up of the Storm Shadow was also exhibited in Bangalore.

The Indian Air Force contract for 126 combat planes is specifically for a category described as medium multi role  meaning the aircraft have to demonstrate a capability for not only dogfights in the air but also for precise ground-attack  bombing specified targets.

The UKs Royal Air Force and Spain have deployed the Eurofighter Typhoon for the operations in Libya. (The British call the offensive Operation Ellamy).

The US-made F-16 Fighting Falcon aircraft of the UAE armed forces  the closest version to Lockheed Martins India offering  has been deployed by the Arab conglomerate, which has also deployed a version of the Mirage 2000. The Indian Air Force has two squadrons of the Mirage 2000 in its inventory.

Ironically, Libyas air defence weaponry is mostly of the same origin and vintage as Indias own, comprising mostly S-125 Pechora surface-to-air missiles (also identified as the SA3) that were supplied by the erstwhile Soviet Russia.

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## sudhir007

Libya Conflict May Spur Sales of Battle-Proven Eurofighter Jet - Businessweek

Dogfights over Libya may spur sales of Eurofighter GmbH&#8217;s 65 million-pound ($106 million) Typhoon warplane as the enforcement of a no-fly zone against Muammar Qaddafi gives the jet a chance to prove its battle credentials.

The 1,500-mile-an-hour Typhoon, built by BAE Systems Plc, Finmeccanica SpA and European Aeronautic, Defence & Space Co., flew its first mission with Britain&#8217;s Royal Air Force on March 21, and 10 of the planes are now stationed in Italy, Eurofighter spokesman Marco Valerio Bonelli said.

&#8220;It never hurts to have the &#8216;as used in combat&#8217; stamp,&#8221; said Francis Tusa, London-based editor of the Defence Analysis newsletter. &#8220;It can only do you good.&#8221;

Eurofighter competes with jets including Dassault Aviation SA&#8217;s Rafale, also patrolling over Libya after flying missions in Afghanistan since 2002, and the yet-to-be-battle-tested Saab AB Gripen. That jet is made in Sweden, where the government said yesterday it might join the conflict.

The three planes are among models competing for a 126-plane order from India, the biggest military deal in play, in competition with the Boeing Co. F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Lockheed Martin Corp. F-16 Fighting Falcon and the MiG-35. Other contests for which European manufacturers are bidding include Brazil, Japan, Oman, Qatar and Switzerland.

*&#8216;Small Footprint&#8217;*

More than 260 Typhoons have so far entered service with the RAF and air forces in partner countries Germany, Italy and Spain, as well as with Austria and Saudi Arabia, the only export customers to date. Working with coalition forces in a battle environment is a key test for the plane, Bonelli said.

&#8220;Interoperability is very important for combat aircraft because they transfer data between them, especially in an operation like this,&#8221; he said, adding that Typhoons employed in Libya are also accessing data from airborne warning and control planes and unmanned drones often hundreds of miles away.

The Libyan deployment has also demonstrated the model&#8217;s &#8220;very quick response and very small footprint,&#8221; with only 100 technicians accompanying the aircraft, the spokesman said.

Still, the jets are limited to an air-superiority role, Britain&#8217;s Ministry of Defence says, meaning they&#8217;ll target enemy planes in the air, rather than attack targets on the ground, a capability the RAF planes won&#8217;t have until 2018. Bombing has been allocated to Panavia Tornados, designed in the 1970s.

*Budget Concerns*

It may take more than one conflict, particularly one where the Typhoon&#8217;s capacities are limited, to excite potential buyers, says Richard Aboulafia, vice president at the Teal Group, a Fairfax, Virginia-based consulting company.

&#8220;I can&#8217;t think of one weapon system in history that was given any kind of boost on the market by one particular conflict,&#8221; he said.

Britain&#8217;s failure to commit so far to a third tranche of orders for the Eurofighter and to upgraded radar will damp interest by other countries in the plane, he said. &#8220;They need to provide the budget roadmap that guarantees the plane&#8217;s longterm appeal as a weapons system,&#8221; Aboualfia said.

There have been no reports yet of the Typhoon encountering Libyan jets, said Douglas Barrie, military aerospace analyst at the International Institute for Strategic Studies in London.

Eurofighter said March 8 that London-based BAE, Europe&#8217;s biggest defense company, had released a Raytheon Co. Paveway IV laser-guided bomb from a Typhoon test plane, a weapon Tusa said could in theory be deployed in Libya.

*&#8216;Multi-Functional&#8217;*

&#8220;In terms of boosting exports you want Typhoon doing this,&#8221; he said. &#8220;Having spent the money there&#8217;s no reason it can&#8217;t.&#8221;

The Eurofighter&#8217;s operational scope in Libya is narrower than that of Dassault&#8217;s Rafale, which flew combat patrols over Afghanistan as early as 2002 and took on a ground-attack role there five years later. The &#8220;omnirole&#8221; plane has undertaken a variety of Libyan missions from Saint-Dizier airbase in France and the Charles de Gaulle aircraft carrier in the Mediterranean.

&#8220;It has been used for air-to-air missions, air-to-ground to hit targets, for reconnaissance and even as a tanker,&#8221; said Colonel Thierry Burkhard, a spokesman for the French joint armed forces. &#8220;It&#8217;s completely multi-functional. You can prepare the plane and choose the mission while you&#8217;re flying.&#8221;

France has been offering the Rafale for export since 2000 but hasn&#8217;t won a single contract after competing unsuccessfully in South Korea, Singapore and Morocco. Libya had even emerged as potential customer after Qaddafi visited France in 2007.

*Rafale, Gripen*

&#8220;I have been little short of amazed about how low-beat the French have been on Rafale&#8217;s profile in Libya,&#8221; said Tusa, a defence analyst for 15 years. &#8220;They are desperate to sell it.&#8221;

While Libya&#8217;s air force includes more than 100 Russian MiG jets, &#8220;much of it is obsolete or inoperable,&#8221; the Pentagon said this month before the no-fly zone was imposed. It also has two Dassault Mirage fighters out of an original fleet of 12.

The Gripen, which first flew in 1988, two years after the Rafale and six years before the Typhoon, has racked up 150,000 flying hours and is already a proven fighter, despite never having operated a combat mission, spokesman Lasse Jansson said.

&#8220;It&#8217;s not something we are asked when we&#8217;re out marketing the aircraft,&#8221; Jansson said by telephone. &#8220;Most potential customers know that Gripen has demonstrated these things.&#8221;

While the plane has been exported to South Africa and Thailand, work may run out in 2012 and an upgrade isn&#8217;t due to join Sweden&#8217;s air force until at least 2017. Sweden would make entry into the Libyan conflict contingent on a clearer chain of command, Prime Minister Fredrik Reinfeldt said yesterday.

U.S. fighter aircraft operating in Libya include the F-16 and Boeing&#8217;s F-15E Strike Eagle, one of which crashed on March 21 after what the Pentagon said was &#8220;an equipment malfunction.&#8221;

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## sancho

kingdurgaking said:


> ...(see BBC it carries minimum 2 tanks from italy to LIBYA for just 1 hour of mission with mid air refuelling)...





> The Typhoon fighter aircraft have been exclusively used for patrol operations, supporting the Tornados during their ground attack missions. *According to the British Ministry of Defence, a mission of a Typhoon fighter, patrolling the skies over Libya, amounts to an average of five flight hours.*



defence.professionals | defpro.com


Repeating the same wrong points (that I already countered) and making things up like the flight hours, makes you look desperate don't you think? You clearly don't see the MKI with a rational point of view, which makes further discussions pointless.




Death.By.Chocolate said:


> It is of no interest to me when the Rafale left France, your claim that the Rafale flew into hostile airspace unsupported by other assets remains to be substantiated.


 
Of course it's important, because that confirms that Rafales and most likely Mirage entered Libyan airspace when the US just started the Cruise Missile attacks. The CAS missions that you meant and included Growlers came only later that day as it is reported even from your US source.
But your denial is not surprising, so I don't bother to much about it. 




the rafter said:


> I don't get how can Eurofighter get a spur in sale just by flying over Libya?
> The surface to air missiles (SAM) from Libya have been taken out by Tomahawk missiles and French, UK and US fighter jets. Eurofighter was not a part of A to G operations because Tranche 1 and 2 does not have one, yet. Libya's air force is all but destroyed, so essentially all Eurofighter (with A to A) is doing is fly over Libyan air space.


 
You have to see it from the point of view of EF partner countries, or consortium, because this is the first real war scenario where the EFs was fielded to! They did air policing over Kosovo and the Falkland Islands, but both during peace times. So indeed, this is the first more or less serious deployment of EFs in a war. The strange thing is only, that they started the missions shortly before the British defense ministry announced that the Libyan air force and air defense are defeated (mainly by their Tornados and other fighters), which makes it rather pointless to fly around with up to 8 missiles.


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## sancho

sudhir007 said:


> *Most of all, the Indian Air Force is following the bombing campaign* by the US, UK, France and eight other countries because variants of four of the six aircraft that are competing for an estimated $12 billion Indian contract have been deployed by the coalition.



Which confirms what was reported before, that MMRCA has a focus on strikes and the latest RFI for standoff weapons is just another proof:

Livefist: IAF Wants Long-Range Standoff Strike Missile


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## dbc

sancho said:


> Repeating the same wrong points and making things up , makes you look desperate don't you think? You clearly don't see the *Rafale* with a rational point of view, which makes further discussions pointless.










sancho said:


> Of course it's important, because that confirms that Rafales and most likely Mirage entered Libyan airspace when the US just started the Cruise Missile attacks. The CAS missions that you meant and included Growlers came only later that day as it is reported even from your US source.
> But your denial is not surprising, so I don't bother to much about it.



The question once again, how do you know the Rafale's entered *hostile* Libyan airspace *unsupported *by other air or surface assets?  
You really ought to look up the meaning of CAS.


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## SpArK

*HOW MUCH DOES IT COST? - The price of the intervention in Libya*

*One hour flight for a Rafale: 13 000 euros for the Mirage, between 10 000 and 11 000 euros*. At a time when governments are to the economy, the cost of the intervention in Libya is discussed in the coalition countries.

With 55 outputs, the French Rafale and Mirage 2000 Monday night totaled more than 400 flight hours, says Agence France-Presse, which notes that these cost estimates do not include the price of fuel.

"Warning" , however, warning France Info : These devices generate an expenditure, whether incurred or not. Cost under the operating budget of the Ministry of Defence, which amounts to 31 billion euros for 2011 notes the radio. In Liberation ( item fee), an "expert" adds: "But they fly in the French sky during training or during missions, these flights have cost anyway." The arrival Tuesday on the area the aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle should also limit the roundtrips of aircraft based in France.

COMBIEN ÇA COÛTE ? - Le prix de l&#8217;intervention en Libye - Big Browser - Blog LeMonde.fr


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## SpArK

Video: Rafale, SuE and Hawkeye operations on Charles de Gaulle

The Base Leg Blog: VIDEO: Rafale, SuE and Hawkeye operations on board Charles de Gaulle


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## SpArK

*France 'shoots down Libyan plane​*






French warplanes have shot down a Libyan plane in the first incident of its kind since enforcement of the UN no-fly zone began, a US official said.

The incident happened near the besieged western city of Misrata, reports said.

Dozens of coalition missiles have already hit military bases, with the aim of ending Col Muammar Gaddafi's ability to launch air attacks.

UK officials said on Wednesday that Libya's air force no longer existed as a fighting force.

Coalition forces have pounded Libyan targets for a fifth consecutive night.

The French military said their planes had hit an air base about 250km (155 miles) south of the Libyan coastline, in an incident apparently unrelated to the shooting down of the Libyan plane.

French officials did not give any further information on the location of the target or the damage.

One US official quoted by Associated Press news agency said the Libyan plane shot down by France was a G-2/Galeb, a training aircraft with a single engine. *The French plane involved was a Rafale fighter, the same US official said.*

Fresh fighting has meanwhile been reported in Misrata, scene of a bitter battle for control which has lasted for many days.

Misrata resident Muhammad told the BBC many large explosions were heard overnight in the city.

"Even now we continue to hear the aeroplanes circling the air above Misrata," he said.

"Gaddafi's forces have occupied the main street - there are snipers all along the rooftops of that street. They are firing indiscriminately into the main street and the back streets.

"But the heavy artillery and shelling has stopped since yesterday [Wednesday]. In that sense, we are in a much better position."

Further east in the strategically important city of Ajdabiya, residents described shelling, gunfire and houses on fire.

Nato members have been holding talks about assuming responsibility for the no-fly zone over Libya, so far without agreement.

Turkey is an integral part of the naval blockade, but has expressed concern about the alliance taking over command of the no-fly zone from the US.

UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon has urged all sides in Libya to cease hostilities. "All those who violate international humanitarian and human rights law will be held fully accountable," his spokesman Martin Nesirky said.

BBC News - Libya: France &#039;shoots down pro-Gaddafi plane&#039;

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## SpArK

EN DIRECT. Libye : un Rafale français abat un avion libyen


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## sancho

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> The question once again, how do you know the Rafale's entered *hostile* Libyan airspace *unsupported *by other air or surface assets?
> You really ought to look up the meaning of CAS.


 
Because the first officially reported missions by aircrafts were French Rafale and Mirage, US B2 and British Tornados with Storm Shadow cruise missiles, the Growlers and other coalition fighters were deployed later only!

P.S.:



> ...The French defense ministry emphasized its speedy response, 48 hours after adoption of the U.N. resolution and the ability to project force in a complex air operation and in such volume.
> 
> *The first combat aircraft, four Rafales, took off at 11 a.m*. from Saint-Dizier-Robinson Air Base to assure the *interception mission* over Benghazi, an area of 150 km by 100 km. They were refueled in the air and directed by the AWACS aircraft, which flew from Avord air base. *Two other Rafales flew reconnaissance missions*, one equipped with the Reco NG intelligence gathering pod. Six C135 inflight refueling tankers from Istres air base took part in the operations.
> 
> Two Mirage 2000D fighter-bombers took off from Nancy air base, and two Mirage 2000-5 multirole aircraft flew from Dijon to perform ground strike and escort missions.
> 
> A patrol of two Rafales from Saint Dizier was equipped with the Armement Air-Sol Modulaire (AASM) smart bomb to provide close air support and also armed for air defense...



http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=6007194&c=EUR&s=AIR

As you can see, without support of EW aircrafts, especially not in these missions


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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> defence.professionals | defpro.com
> 
> 
> Repeating the same wrong points (that I already countered) and making things up like the flight hours, makes you look desperate don't you think? You clearly don't see the MKI with a rational point of view, which makes further discussions pointless.


 
Not sure what you countered?? typhoon flying for 5 hours with external tanks and mid air refueling?? you mean they fly only with external tanks for 5 hours without mid air refuelling? ... i have countered with a whole huge point on payload and radar detection.. which you cooly avoided... no use in getting angry with me..


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## kingdurgaking

SpArK said:


> One US official quoted by Associated Press news agency said the Libyan plane shot down by France was a G-2/Galeb, a training aircraft with a single engine. The French plane involved was a Rafale fighter, the same US official said



what an achievement


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## sancho

kingdurgaking said:


> Not sure what you countered?? typhoon flying for 5 hours with external tanks and mid air refueling?? you mean they fly only with external tanks for 5 hours without mid air refuelling? ... i have countered with a whole huge point on payload and radar detection.. which you cooly avoided... no use in getting angry with me..


 
The fact that your hypothetical multi pylons that don't exist for Flankers can be deployed on EF, or other aircrafts as well, so the MKI even in this scenario has no advantage, just like it don't have in a realistic A2A config. That's why it's just poor logic too count them for the one, but ignore it for the other! Btw, it's not me who made up that EF flow only 1h including mid air refuelling, just to say it has not a comparable fuel fraction isn't it? 
Try to compare with facts, then you will see the truth!


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## sancho

*RAF EFs that are deployed in Libya:*

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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> The fact that your hypothetical multi pylons that don't exist for Flankers can be deployed on EF, or other aircrafts as well, so the MKI even in this scenario has no advantage, just like it don't have in a realistic A2A config. That's why it's just poor logic too count them for the one, but ignore it for the other! Btw, it's not me who made up that EF flow only 1h including mid air refuelling, just to say it has not a comparable fuel fraction isn't it?
> Try to compare with facts, then you will see the truth!



I have compared with what is stated in wiki... you show any pics of EFT carrying BVR in multi pylon we will close the discussion here


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## sancho

kingdurgaking said:


> I have compared with what is stated in wiki... you show any pics of EFT carrying BVR in multi pylon we will close the discussion here


LOL, I don't have to, you brought that up not me! I always took realistic configs and in such the EF carries the same weapon load than an MKI with EW pods. It's not my fault that you can't admit this fact!


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## dbc

sancho said:


> Because the first officially reported missions by aircrafts were French Rafale and Mirage, US B2 and British Tornados with Storm Shadow cruise missiles, the Growlers and other coalition fighters were deployed later only!
> 
> P.S.:
> 
> 
> 
> France Deploys About 20 Aircraft to Enforce Libya No-Fly Zone - Defense News
> 
> As you can see, without support of EW aircrafts, especially not in these missions


 
Five F/A-18 Growler have been seen over Italy since the morning of March 19. The Rafale engaged its first target at 1745 on March 19, considering 30 minutes flight time from Southern Italy to Benghazi, how can you rule out Growler or other EW assistance to the French operation on March 19. 
How can you rule out Mirage EW support for the Rafale? Did you receive a combat debrief from the French?



sancho said:


> The fact that Rafale was used to enter their airspace before CM strikes and *without dedicated EW aircrafts like the F18 Growlers, showes the capability of SPECTRA* and that the French forces are more than confident about it. The opponent fighters might not be an issue and they have no AWACS either, but the ground radars and SAMs are a threat for any fighter, that's why the US deployed the Growlers and F16 CJs, or UK used their Tornados, to have capable protection in SEAD, although they are using anti radiation missiles from longer range.
> In terms of RCS you also have to keep in mind, that the Rafales so far were deployed from bases in France, that's why they had to carry so many fuel tanks, which obviously increased the RCS.


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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> LOL, I don't have to, you brought that up not me! I always took realistic configs and in such the EF carries the same weapon load than an MKI with EW pods. It's not my fault that you can't admit this fact!


 
LoL you cant prove eighter it can carry.. b.t.w you mean to say MKI doesnt have EW?i am sure it has EW built internal... as per the Red flag .. the US Air force chief very well mentioned that it jammed.... it doesnt need to carry external... 

And in a debate you cant assume that you are right always.. you have to prove with pics or some source... buddy.. it is not my assumption or your assumption to speak what we like..











and an Air superiority fighter tag against MKI 




...

I dont deny it is good.. it has good avionics.. but no payload see the pics.. max 8 missile for the role it is deployed


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## luckyyy

SpArK said:


> *HOW MUCH DOES IT COST? - The price of the intervention in Libya*
> 
> *One hour flight for a Rafale=13 000 euros ,for the Mirage between 10 000 and 11 000 euros*. At a time when governments are to the economy, the cost of the intervention in Libya is discussed in the coalition countries.
> 
> With 55 outputs, the French Rafale and Mirage 2000 Monday night totaled more than 400 flight hours, says Agence France-Presse, which *notes that these cost estimates do not include the price of fuel.*
> 
> "Warning" , however, warning France Info : These devices generate an expenditure, whether incurred or not. Cost under the operating budget of the Ministry of Defence, which amounts to 31 billion euros for 2011 notes the radio. In Liberation ( item fee), an "expert" adds: "But they fly in the French sky during training or during missions, these flights have cost anyway." The arrival Tuesday on the area the aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle should also limit the roundtrips of aircraft based in France.
> 
> COMBIEN ÇA COÛTE ? - Le prix de lintervention en Libye - Big Browser - Blog LeMonde.fr


 

and the operating cost of Rafale is nothing less then that of a MKI..


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## Black Widow

SpArK said:


> *HOW MUCH DOES IT COST? - The price of the intervention in Libya*
> 
> *One hour flight for a Rafale: 13 000 euros for the Mirage, between 10 000 and 11 000 euros*. At a time when governments are to the economy, the cost of the intervention in Libya is discussed in the coalition countries.
> 
> With 55 outputs, the French Rafale and Mirage 2000 Monday night totaled more than 400 flight hours, says Agence France-Presse, which notes that these cost estimates do not include the price of fuel.
> 
> "Warning" , however, warning France Info : These devices generate an expenditure, whether incurred or not. Cost under the operating budget of the Ministry of Defence, which amounts to 31 billion euros for 2011 notes the radio. In Liberation ( item fee), an "expert" adds: "But they fly in the French sky during training or during missions, these flights have cost anyway." The arrival Tuesday on the area the aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle should also limit the roundtrips of aircraft based in France.
> 
> COMBIEN ÇA COÛTE ? - Le prix de l&#8217;intervention en Libye - Big Browser - Blog LeMonde.fr


 
There are sometime where we need to think larger than life... If World will not listen to Lybia it may turn into failed state, Its time to take a side, and liberate the Lybia from Tyrant....

The world ignored Somalia and you can see the outcome, every month they (somalian) are hijacking boats... Do you want another Somalia in Meditrarian???? gaddafi must go, by negotiation or by power... 

Initial cost of these operation must be high, but it will be fruitfull in future....


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## angeldemon_007

@kingdurgaking
I found this pic of eurofighter...


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## kingdurgaking

angeldemon_007 said:


> @kingdurgaking
> I found this pic of eurofighter...


 
yeah 3 hardpoints wetted .... which ultimately reduces the fighter performance to a huge amount... 
i dont deny EFT is a good Air superiority slowly migrating to multi role.... it has too good avionics to do air superiority.... 
But my argument from day 1 is if while EFT does the role of Air superiority comparing vis MKI it has to compromise on weapons load for range or compromise on range for weapon load .. which is not the problem with MKI... MKI can do that in ease on range and pay load at the same time(An important parameter for any mission)... though RCS is big ... it ultimately has a too good radar to lock on EFT and launch couple of archers way before EFT does... which sancho is not able to understand.... my point is compromise vis MKI.... so MKI stays a head... and i am stating the fact of 14 hardpoints only from Wiki..


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## jha

*Whistleblower Episode A Death Blow To Rafale?*






Could the Indian government use the Aero India 2011 bribery scandal to eliminate Dassault from the IAF medium multirole combat aircraft (M-MRCA) competition and cancel the near-concluded Mirage-2000 upgrade contract? Possibly not. However, despite two separate assertions by the MoD that the episode (see last two posts) would not affect or delay the competition, sources reveal that nothing is off the table just yet. It should be said, however, that while the IAF has formally conveyed to the MoD its intention to bar Dassault's Posina V Rao, it has made no recommendation about Dassault at large. Nevertheless, that remains a sliver of a lifeline, given how episodes like these can escalate into a full-scale blacklisting.

If you thought this was a minor episode with no potential repercussions, you couldn't be more wrong. The implications are huge. There are several theories doing the rounds already -- of a larger cover-up by the IAF, of competitors goading the IAF to eliminate the French, of wanton indiscretions, you know the drill. As of now, however, Dassault insists that its Indian pointsperson, Posina V Rao, merely filed a complaint, and was being penalised for following rules. Obviously the IAF doesn't see it that way. Mr Rao apparently sees himself as a whistleblower caught in the decidedly delicate crossfire of turf battles between the IAF and MoD, a place no one wants to ever be caught in, least of all the representative of a foreign arms company. Legal options could be afoot, I'm told. The IAF feels it has fool-proof reasons to blackball the Dassault man, and will stick to its guns. For a company that has remained compulsively off the scandal radar and deliberately low-profile to a fault, this new episode is a true nightmare. So what now?

There are several questions, as always. One, PV Rao couldn't have made the complaint without the authorisation of his superiors in France -- so was this a high-level faux pas by a company with possibly more experience in light-stepping around Indian government turfs than any of the other competitors? Two, if Dassault was merely a whistleblower on an act of corruption, why is the IAF cutting off the man who filed the complaint? Three, is there more to the Dassault complaint than meets the eye? Four, has Dassault come out with all the facts of the episode, or is there more that is not being revealed? Five, why wasn't the base commander of Yelahanka considered an appropriate person to file the complaint with? Six, why has the MoD not fleshed out its stand on the episode?

Livefist: Whistleblower Episode A Death Blow To Rafale?


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## sancho

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> The Rafale engaged its first target at 1745 on March 19...
> ...how can you rule out Growler or other EW assistance to the French operation on March 19.






> *From 1:30 pm today, French Air Force fighters have been engaged over Libya.* Their perform air defence missions to enforce the no-fly zone in the Benghazi area and prevent Colonel Gaddafi's aircraft from flying. They also perform strikes on the ground on identified military targets which are a threat for the civilian population.


Libya : French air operations begin

Just shows how mistaken you are and that you have not a single point here, French fighters officially was the first to engage combats, while B2s was officially the first US aircrafts. As usual you are just speculating and ignoring the facts that the Growlers was not present at that time and not in such missions (air policing and recon)!




kingdurgaking said:


> LoL you cant prove eighter it can carry



Of course I can't, because it's just a made up scenario that you came up with and you can't prove for the MKI either, because it don't has such pylons. The point is, there is no reason why the MKI should be able to carry them and the EF can not and that's what you ignore. That's why I said, don't just speculate and made up arguments for the MKI, stay on facts that can be compared on equal and rational basis, anything else simply don't make sense and makes a discussion pointless!



kingdurgaking said:


> And in a debate you cant assume that you are right always.. you have to prove with pics or some source... buddy.. it is not my assumption or your assumption to speak what we like...



That's what I did from the start, when I showed you official Sukhoi specs to counter you wrong assumptions about payload and MTOW. That's what I did when I calculted the TWR and fuel fractions in different load configs, to prove that the EF is better in both. That's what I did when I even showed you pics proving that the EF has more wingstations, that can carry a higher weight and that they could carry your hypothetical multi pylons. So my points are backed up quiet well don't you think? 




kingdurgaking said:


> b.t.w you mean to say MKI doesnt have EW?i am sure it has EW built internal... as per the Red flag .. the US Air force chief very well mentioned that it jammed.... it doesnt need to carry external...



The Elta jamming pods are carried externally and were not deployed on any exercises, just like our Mirage, or Jags had to carry these pods on external stations, while latest fighters like EF, Rafale, or Su 35, integrate them into EW pods. Rafale carries them on the tail fin, EF and Su 35 on the wingtips. Sudhir posted a pic of an MKI model, with new EW features from DARE, which included the ECM wingtippods of the Su 35 as well and that leaves 10 hardpoints for missiles. Btw, the RAF EFs in Libya still has 1 centerline station and inner wingstations left, which are not loaded on the pic.


----------



## sancho

*Reports about Aero India and bribery:*



> *Defence contract: Dassault executive accused of bribery*
> 
> NEW DEHLI:
> 
> The Indian Air Force has put on hold its dealings with the country manager of French defence firm Dassault Aviation for his role in the bribery scandal during the Aero India show in Bangalore.
> 
> P V Rao, country manager of Dassault Aviation  one of the leading contenders for an $11 billion Indian government contract for 126 fighter aircraft  had allegedly acceded to the demand for a Rs20,000 ($400) bribes from Indian Air Force Wing Commander A K Thakur for providing Dassault a favourable place at the Bangalore air show last month. The officer was caught by defence ministry officials...
> 
> ...The officer was deployed there to oversee the arrangements at the static display area and mark positions for the aircraft there. The inquiry court will probe *if Thakur had taken any money from other companies also and if there was involvement of anybody else in the whole episode*.
> 
> A Dassault spokesman in Paris described Rao as merely a witness.
> 
> *Rao is not accused but hes a witness for having
> informed about an attempted shakedown during that
> air-show,* the official added. (WITH ADDITIONAL REPORTING
> FROM AFP)



Defence contract: Dassault executive accused of bribery  The Express Tribune


*From a French news report (translated):*



> *Dassault victim of a bizarre case in India*
> 
> An attempted extortion of 300 euros threatens to derail the aircraft manufacturer in the tender New Delhi for the purchase of 126 fighter planes.
> 
> When we talk about below-the-table on arms deal, it is believed tens or hundreds of millions. Yet it is an attempt to extort money from 300 euros, which threatens to derail Dassault in the tender New Delhi for the purchase of 126 fighter planes.
> 
> Revealed by local media, this strange affair took place last month at the show in Bangalore. Dassault Rafale was presenting it hopes to bring in this huge market estimated at $ 7 billion. *An official with the Air Force took the opportunity to ask Posin Rao*, head of aircraft manufacturer in the country, *a jar of wine from 20,000 rupees (314 euros!)* To assign to the French aircraft a better location. *Posin Rao have alerted the Department of Defense, which would have to take the corrupt official in flagrante delicto.*
> 
> *The paradox is that the Air Force, conducting an investigation, responded by "punishing" Dassault's local manager is now banned from any contact with Indian officials, which prevented him from continuing the negotiations. Contacted by Les Echos, Posin Rao has merely indicated that he "did his job honestly.*" At the headquarters of the manufacturer, which is following the matter closely, we are assured they had received no official indication of the Indian authorities that the police chief in New Delhi would be persona non grata in the tender.
> 
> In the industrial and French soldiers, the case with dismay. While the Indian Air Force assured the contrary, professionals fear of serious repercussions. "The case is sufficient to discredit the company, says one of them for which the opponents of Dassault will draw party. Especially since the story takes place in a political context leaded by major corruption scandals. It falls even more evil than France has been waiting a long time now that New Delhi sign the contract for upgrading the 50 Mirage 2000.



Dassault victim of a bizarre case in India


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## sancho

*Rafales deployed in Libya:*

*In air policing mission with 3 x supersonic fuel tanks (1250l) and 6 x MICA missiles*












*In strike mission with 2 x subsonic fuel tanks (2000l) and 4 x 500lb AASM PGMs with GPS guidance and 4 x MICA missiles*











*In deep penetration strike missions with 2 x subsonic fuel tanks (2000l), 1 x Scalp cruise missile and 4 x MICA missiles*











*In recon mission with 2 x subsonic fuel tanks (2000l), 1 x Recon NG pod and 6 x MICA missiles*







*Same mission, same config, performed by Rafale M carrier versions*


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## dbc

sancho said:


> Libya : French air operations begin
> 
> Just shows how mistaken you are and that you have not a single point here, French fighters officially was the first to engage combats, while B2s was officially the first US aircrafts. As usual you are just speculating and ignoring the facts that the Growlers was not present at that time and not in such missions (air policing and recon)!



This is getting boring, you said that the Rafale was able to operate independently without EW support from other French or coalition assets. I have seen no evidence to support your claim, every military press release or photograph I've seen so far show a mixed formation of Mirage 2000 and Rafale.






Avec la chasse Française en vol vers la Libye : un reportage de Thomas Goisque

Growler @ Aviano, Italy, Saturday, March 19, 2011





http://newshopper.sulekha.com/italy-nato-libya_photo_1752180.htm



sancho said:


> The fact that Rafale was used to enter their airspace before CM strikes and without dedicated EW aircrafts like the F18 Growlers, showes the capability of SPECTRA and that the French forces are more than confident about it. The opponent fighters might not be an issue and they have no AWACS either, but the ground radars and SAMs are a threat for any fighter, that's why the US deployed the Growlers and F16 CJs, or UK used their Tornados, to have capable protection in SEAD, although they are using anti radiation missiles from longer range.
> In terms of RCS you also have to keep in mind, that the Rafales so far were deployed from bases in France, that's why they had to carry so many fuel tanks, which obviously increased the RCS.


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## sancho

> *UAE confirms sending 12 F-16s for missions in Libya*
> 
> The UAE will send 12 fighters to support the international coalition with a mission to protect civilians from attacks by the forces of Colonel Gaddafi in Libya.
> 
> Os Emirados Árabes Unidos serão o segundo país árabe a enviar aeronaves para o apoio à coalizão após o Catar ter enviado caças Mirage 2000 e aeronaves de transporte para uma das bases aéreas no Mediterrâneo. The UAE will be the second Arab country to send aircraft to support coalition after Qatar have sent Mirage 2000 fighter jets and transport aircraft for an air bases in the Mediterranean.
> 
> As operações militares na Líbia estão sendo conduzidas por 13 nações até o momento, incluindo Estados Unidos, Reino Unido, Holanda, Canadá, França e Bélgica. Military operations in Libya are being conducted by 13 nations so far, including the United States, United Kingdom, Netherlands, Canada, France and Belgium. As aeronaves da forças conjuntas já realizaram mais de 300 surtidas sobre o norte da África e dispararam mais de 162 mísseis Tomahawk na missão das Nações Unidas. The aircraft of the joint forces have made more than 300 sorties over northern Africa and fired over 162 Tomahawk missiles at the United Nations mission.



Emirados Árabes Unidos confirma envio de 12 caças F-16 para missões na Líbia


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## sancho

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> *This is getting boring*, you said that the Rafale was able to operate independently without EW support from other French or coalition assets. I have seen no evidence to support your claim, every military press release or photograph I've seen so far show a mixed formation of Mirage 2000 and Rafale.


 
True it's getting boring to hear the same lame speculations from people that have no arguments! 

How about open your eyes and checking the load configs of the Mirage 2000 in your own pic? A targeting pod, paveway II LGBs and MICAs missiles, where do you see EW pods? Rafale in the same pic with AASM PGMs with GPS guidance. 

Here is another (Mirage 2000-5 with 3 x fuel tanks and 6 x MICAs):







Any EW pods? 

This might help you to understand why you don't see anything like that:








> 2 Mirage 2000-5 - *Air Defense*
> 2 Mirage 2000D - *CAS*




Just to make it a bit more interesting, why don't YOU provide a proof that the Growlers supported the Rafales in these early missions?


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## SpArK




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## dbc

sancho said:


> True it's getting boring to hear the same lame speculations from people that have no arguments!
> 
> How about open your eyes and checking the load configs of the Mirage 2000 in your own pic? A targeting pod, paveway II LGBs and MICAs missiles, where do you see EW pods? Rafale in the same pic with AASM PGMs with GPS guidance.
> 
> Here is another (Mirage 2000-5 with 3 x fuel tanks and 6 x MICAs):
> 
> 
> Any EW pods?
> 
> This might help you to understand why you don't see anything like that:






sancho said:


> Just to make it a bit more interesting, why don't YOU provide a proof that the Growlers supported the Rafales in these early missions?


 
I'm not the one making $hit up dear you are 

You said the Rafale operated unsupported by French or coalition aircraft's - prove it! We know it was escorted by the Mirage carrying targeting PODs for the Rafale, we have wonderful pictures taken by Thomas Goisque as proof. You said the Growler was no where near Libya on 19 March, I showed you a picture of the Growler in Italy on the same day.



sancho said:


> Any EW pods?



Now you tell me the Mirage 2000 was not carrying EW PODS, I'm surprised the captain of the Dassault cheer leading squad can't locate the jammer on the Mirage 2000. Keep this up and your sponsor will take away your spankies


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## SpArK

*Libya: The Rafale shoot Scalp cruise missiles​*





The French operations in Libya took yesterday, a new twist. No longer content to operate only around Benghazi, the Air Force and Navy aircraft were involved in the night of March 23 to 24 in a raid against a military forces of Colonel Gaddafi, located about 250 km south of the Libyan coast. The attack, led by two and two Mirage 2000 Rafale left France, and two Rafale catapulted from the aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle saw the implementation of Scalp EG cruise missiles. That is, a priori, the first time that the French army shall, in operation, this precision munition with a range of about 500 km. Designed by MBDA Scalp is also used by the Royal Air Force, where he is known as Storm Shadow. The missile appears to have been deployed elsewhere in Libya at the weekend by the British Tornado. For France, the adoption of this new weapon was made possible by the commissioning in late 2009, the Rafale F3 standard. Operation Harmattan is, it must still be emphasized (even if it does not say too strong), the opportunity for the French fighter aircraft to give the full measure of its versatility and its new building (including the Reco NG pod and pod Damocles). The regime in Tripoli, who thought until recently to purchase 14 Rafale of France, has probably been measuring the effectiveness of aircraft that, by chance, he will never. 







*Destruction of a Libyan plane by a French raid *

For yesterday, nearly two dozen French aircraft participated in Operation Harmattan. *Apart from the assault that involved the Scalp, a reconnaissance mission was conducted by a patrol Rafale Air Force. Four interdiction missions have also been conducted by two and four Mirage 2000D Rafale Air Force and joint patrols by two Rafale / Modernised Super Etendard (SEM) of the Navy.* These aircraft outweighed Armaments Modular Air-Ground (AASM), GBU 12 bombs and missiles air-air Mica. *During these missions, AWACS radar plane detected the coalition aircraft in the area Misratah, 200 kilometers east of Tripoli.* A patrol Mirage 2000 and Rafale French air patrol went on scene and confirmed the presence of a fighter aircraft that operated in violation of UN resolution 1973 (authorizing the establishment of an exclusion zone Air PPUR protect civilians in areas held by the rebels). The patrol conducted a Rafale strike air-ground, with AASM, while the fighter forces of Colonel Gaddafi had just landed at the military airbase of Misratah.* To conduct these missions, combat aircraft lights were supported by tankers and C135 E3F AWACS left France and an aerial watch Hawkeye aircraft Rafale and dedicated in-flight refueling from the carrier battle group. 
*






Mer et Marine : Toute l'actualité maritime

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## Gandhi G in da house

You guys debating in this thread have unlimited patience .its almost abnormal ,LOL . Anyways kudos to you guys .


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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> Of course I can't, because it's just a made up scenario that you came up with and you can't prove for the MKI either, because it don't has such pylons. The point is, there is no reason why the MKI should be able to carry them and the EF can not and that's what you ignore. That's why I said, don't just speculate and made up arguments for the MKI, stay on facts that can be compared on equal and rational basis, anything else simply don't make sense and makes a discussion pointless!


the fact that i have mentioned is put on wiki and number of websites which stated that the hard point can be increased to 14 with MER which you dont able to eat it... can you show in EFT specs it can?? which i am asking you?? and i havent speculated anything.. everthing is just by facts from different source .. similarly you are arguing it can why not EFT?? which i am telling oke it can show me the source thats it.. i have already posted a pic in earlier where you commented saying what is your point?? which had MER in the center pylong... 

Your point that MKI can do so EFT can do.. oke let us assume it can do... can i go and argue that it can carry 8ton with MER on all hard points?? will you agree? you will ask for a source right?? i am also asking for a source for EFT.... so far i have not seen MKI carrying 14 and i agree and i havent seen EFT carrying more than 8 AAM.. which you wont agree...(not sure why?)...



sancho said:


> That's what I did from the start, when I showed you official Sukhoi specs to counter you wrong assumptions about payload and MTOW. That's what I did when I calculted the TWR and fuel fractions in different load configs, to prove that the EF is better in both. That's what I did when I even showed you pics proving that the EF has more wingstations, that can carry a higher weight and that they could carry your hypothetical multi pylons. So my points are backed up quiet well don't you think?



oke my hypothetical pylon is written like this

12 hardpoints: 2 × wing-tip AAM launch rails, 6 × pylons under-wing, 2 × pylon under-engine nacelle, and 2 × pylons in tandem in the "arch" between the engines. It can be increased to 14 using multiple ejector racks. It can carry up to 8 tonnes of external stores.

source : wikie
Sukhoi Su-30 MKI + some sources

when i asked show me the same hypothetical pylon for EFT to shut my mouth... you came back saying it is not your work... oke let us assume MKI has got 12 hard points only.... it can load on all 12 hard points and go and target 1000 km away... can the EFT load all 13 hardpoints and go 1000 km and target?? bolo?

.... when you showed the specs from Sukohoi i agreed... i didnt counter on it.. But i also showed the same for EFT proving it is not 0.4 but 0.3 less than MKI
http://www.eurofighter.com/fileadmin/web_data/downloads/extpub/01_F22Article_EF_World.pdf 
and you came back saying it is calculated with external tanks.. which i didnt disagree.. i said EFT need external tanks to survive which is not the same for MKI which you are not able to digest and coming back saying you dont need to prove anything.. when you gave a point and i showed the link countering it you are just reitering the same not giving a proof for your argument.. 





sancho said:


> The Elta jamming pods are carried externally and were not deployed on any exercises, just like our Mirage, or Jags had to carry these pods on external stations, while latest fighters like EF, Rafale, or Su 35, integrate them into EW pods. Rafale carries them on the tail fin, EF and Su 35 on the wingtips. Sudhir posted a pic of an MKI model, with new EW features from DARE, which included the ECM wingtippods of the Su 35 as well and that leaves 10 hardpoints for missiles. Btw, the RAF EFs in Libya still has 1 centerline station and inner wingstations left, which are not loaded on the pic.


[/QUOTE] 
As per jamming & EW i remembered it was carried externally.. and latter was moved internal.. i am not sure when i read the news.. but it was long back... it also mentioned only Mig-27 will still host outside while Tejas and rest will be moved inside.... well EFT never carried any weapons in the center pylong.. it was only a wetted hardpoint from day one...


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## SpArK

*Good read*

The Role of the Eurofighter | SLDInfo

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## SpArK

*France promotes the French Rafale aircraft in attacks on Libya
​*





Air military intervention launched on Saturdayz March 19 in Libya by an international coalition offers a great opportunity to show in action that French fighter Rafale Dassault Paris and the manufacturer tried to sell, so far without success, to several countries, among them Brazil .
On Saturday, eight Rafale flew over the sky Libya to establish an air exclusion zone in compliance with a Security Council resolution, UN to protect civilians from the military offensive of Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi. On Sunday there were six.


All carried out reconnaissance missions and / or attack. Eight other equipment are on board the French nuclear carrier "Charles de Gaulle" on Sunday sailed to Libya.

Libya 'may be a way to advertise the Rafale through experience in combat, "summed up Jean Pierre Maulny Monday, deputy director of the Institute of International and Strategic Relations (IRIS) in charge of defense and security issues.
"Although the Rafale is already involved in Afghanistan, this conflict is not popular. And so, manufacturers are hesitant to report the material "displayed in certain war zones, he said.


*Technological success, business failure*

Considered a success of French technology, the Rafale is, however, a commercial failure because France never achieved export.
However, in early February, the CEO of Dassault Aviation, Charles Edelstenne, said that the Rafale was likely to be sold in eight countries.
The Rafale is at stake since 2009 in Brazil by a multimillion contract for the sale of 36 fighter jets for which competes with the F/A-18 Super Hornet from Boeing and the Swedish Saab Gripen NG.

As for "fact" by French President Nicolas Sarkozy in September 2009, although no document was ever signed, Brazil has announced weeks ago that postponed its decision for budgetary reasons.

Since 2008, France in talks to sell 60 aircraft to the UAE.

The Rafale, a twin-engine bomber designed in the 80's, capable of air-attack missions and air-sea ground reconnaissance or nuclear attack, which costs about 50 million euros (70 million), was also proposed to India , Kuwait, Switzerland, Greece, and even ... Libya.
So far, all were unsuccessful.

Libya "will help us sell," says a French director who requested anonymity.


"A conflict can truly demonstrate the ability of a device. From this point of view, Libya represents a technological showcase, "said Christophe Menard, an analyst at Kepler Capital Markets.
The real test "will add gallons to the honor roll of the airplane, provided you do not miss any device," he said.


As the French accompany the Qatari aircraft participating in the coalition will be easier to convince potential buyers, experts add.
"A fighter always sell better if it has been confirmed 'unfit for combat'," said a source close to Dassault Aviation before explaining that the "best example" was the Mirage 3 used by Israel during the Six Day War days in June 1967.


At that time "showed this capacity (of action) which became a worldwide bestseller," recalled the source.

In Libya the situation is different because the Rafale aircraft does not face the same level *"but the mere fact that this aircraft has entered the area the same Saturday Libyan air without previous bombing of the Libyan air defenses, shows confidence in this device (which can have) all those who are interested in this airplane, "said the source.
Dassault Aviation spokesman, Stephane Fort, stressed the "versatility" of the Rafale, which distinguishes for example the Boeing F-18, U.S. President, Barack Obama, defended this weekend in Brazil, which can only be configured for one mission at a time and that before taking off, recalled.*




Fuente: Francia promociona el avión Rafale francés durante ataques a Libia | BalboaRadio.com Francia promociona el avión Rafale francés durante ataques a Libia | BalboaRadio.com

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## SpArK

*RNoAF F-16 began flying missions with air to ground weapons fit over Libya yesterday, with missions last night as well.

From first mission departure yesterday​*


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## SpArK




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## SpArK

*Libya: French aviation destroyed five planes; two helicopters​*
ennahar 26 March, 2011 11:53:00
image






French fighter planes in Misrata (200 km east of Tripoli) have destroyed "at least" five Galeb fighter planes and two combat helicopters MI-35 of forces loyal to Colonel Muammar Gaddafi, said on Saturday the staff of the French armies.

In the last 24 hours, said the staff in the evening on its website, "French aircraft have carried out several strikes in the regions of Zintan and Misrata.
According to "the first observations," he adds, these strikes have destroyed "in Misrata at least five Galeb combat planes and at least two combat helicopters MI-35 preparing to conduct operations in the region."

Ennaharonline/ M. O. 


Ennahar Online - Libya: French aviation destroyed five planes; two helicopters


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## SpArK

Czechs producing pylons for Gripen jets - UPI.com

SA proves girls can fly fighter jets - Newspaper - Mail & Guardian Online


----------



## GORKHALI

*Fighting Spirit exercise*


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## deepakclaw

what ever may be its wise not to buy uncle sam's fighter planes. but if we do then----------


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## sancho

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> We know it was *escorted by the Mirage carrying targeting PODs* for the Rafale, we have wonderful pictures taken by Thomas Goisque as proof.



 LOL escorted by Mirage with targeting pods! Hilarious, without a doubt the funniest statement you ever made! 

As I told you earlier, just open your eyes (and your highly biased mind) and you will see the facts! The Mirage 2000s carry targeting pods to guide the Paveway LGBs they carry as well. Rafale instead, carries AASM with GPS, or IR guidance, they don't need a targeting pod for guidance *and more importantly, none of these fighters carries any EW pods!* 
Once again you proved that your speculations are totally baseless, congrats for that! 



Death.By.Chocolate said:


> You said the Growler was no where near Libya on 19 March, I showed you a picture of the Growler in Italy on the same day.



Oh please, if you can't prove your speculations, don't start lying! 
I said that French fighters made the first missions above Libyia (recon, escort and strikes) and these were not supported by dedicated EW fighters like the Growlers. This is proven by French and US sources that confirms, what role the French fighters played and that the first US aircraft involved was the B2!




kingdurgaking said:


> the fact that i have mentioned is put on wiki and number of websites which stated that the hard point can be increased to 14 with MER



But only for dumb bombs, not for PGMs, or missiles, or any other important weapons and that's one of the many wrong points in your logic!
I provided official specs and weapon loadouts and you still keep speculation, the pic from acig.org shows multi pylons for dumb bombs, but you can't use other weapons from it. 

Also there was no source that the payload can be increases, you wrongly assumed it:



> Oke let me explain you external Payload .. though i took it from Wiki
> 
> Empty weight: 18,400 kg
> Loaded weight: 24,900 kg
> Max takeoff weight: 38,800 kg
> 
> *see the loaded weight and MTOW... it has got 15 tonn pay load capacity...*




I explained you why this is wrong and that the weight limit of the hardpoint is the important limitation.




kingdurgaking said:


> oke let us assume MKI has got 12 hard points only.... it can load on all 12 hard points and go and target 1000 km away... can the EFT load all 13 hardpoints and go 1000 km and target?? bolo?



Of course, because with 3 x fuel tanks it has a better fuel fraction than the MKI with total internal fuel and even the official figures for ferry range should make that clear, because the EF has 3700Km ferry range, while the MKI only 3000Km.


----------



## bhagat

*IAF won't accept any last minute offers from contenders*

New Delhi, Mar 28 (PTI) The Indian Air Force has decided against accepting any last minute offers from the contenders of the multi-billion dollar deal for purchase of 126 fighter aircraft even as it rejected a bidder's proposal to equip its warplanes with a more powerful jet engine.

"No offers for upgrades or changes in the original bid submitted by the six aircraft companies would be allowed as their aircraft have been judged on the basis of capabilities offered in the original bid and their performance in the field trials," IAF sources said here.

Six companies -- Lockheed Martin (F-16), Boeing (F/A-18 E/F), Dassault Aviation (Rafale), Saab Gripen, Rosoboronexport MiG 35 and EADS Eurofighter Typhoon are contenders in the USD 11 billion dollar contract of the IAF for procuring 126 Medium-Multirole Combat Aircraft (M-MRCA).

fullstory

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## sancho

> *F-16 UAE arrive in Italy for Operation Odyssey Sunrise*
> 
> Twelve Air Force fighters of the UAE, a key U.S. ally, landed on Sunday morning in Decimomannu Air Base, on the Italian island of Sardinia, from which depart from this Monday to support the missions of the deployment area to fly over Libya. Among the six aircraft were F-16E / F Desert Falcons and Dassault Mirage 2000-9 six aircraft, which departed from the Emirates on Thursday, after confirmation of participation given by the Minister of Foreign Relations of the Emirates , Sheikh Abdullah bin Zayed al -Nahyan.
> 
> A former Air Force Commander of the UAE said last week that his country had delayed its military presence because of disagreements with the West over the situation in Bahrain , where there is a Shiite revolt against the Sunni royal family.
> 
> The Qatar, the first Arab country to send aircraft to the conflict in Libya, held its first strike mission on Friday , when two Mirage 2000-5 fighter planes were accompanied by two aircraft of the type of the French Air Force.


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## sancho

bhagat said:


> *IAF won't accept any last minute offers from contenders*
> 
> New Delhi, Mar 28 (PTI) The Indian Air Force has decided against accepting any last minute offers from the contenders of the multi-billion dollar deal for purchase of 126 fighter aircraft even as it rejected a bidder's proposal to equip its warplanes with a more powerful jet engine.
> 
> "No offers for upgrades or changes in the original bid submitted by the six aircraft companies would be allowed *as their aircraft have been judged on the basis of capabilities offered in the original bid and their performance in the field trials,*" IAF sources said here.



Interesting, if that is true it means the F18SH must be judged by the performance with the normal GE 414 engine and according to several reports, that wasn't sufficient.


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## typhoon77

> Interesting, if that is true it means the F18SH must be judged by the performance with the normal GE 414 engine and according to several reports, that wasn't sufficient.



It also wouldn't included the new IRST, weapons pod, CFT, upgraded avionics etc. This means the Eurofighter, Rafale, SH, and Gripen are all on a level playing field, for the most part.


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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> But only for dumb bombs, not for PGMs, or missiles, or any other important weapons and that's one of the many wrong points in your logic!
> I provided official specs and weapon loadouts and you still keep speculation, the pic from acig.org shows multi pylons for dumb bombs, but you can't use other weapons from it. Also there was no source that the payload can be increases, you wrongly assumed it:


hmmmmm.. is this your assumption or you have any source to back only for dumb bombs... if you put multirack pylon.. who said external payload will increase? for (e.g.)Archers total weight is 225 kg... and you multiply by 225*14=3150 kg (i.e) 3 tonne... which is less than the total external payload which is 8000kg.. so how does your logic say that putting multipylon will increase the external payload?.. 

Another one question.. if an manufacture quotes that total external payload is 8tonnne.. which means the hardpoints are configured to carry upto 8tonnes right? how is this logic not apply to AAM?


sancho said:


> I explained you why this is wrong and that the weight limit of the hardpoint is the important limitation.


i never argued after that for 8 tonne with MKI? i stoped there taking your answer and then i debated only on 12 AAM or 14 AAM...



sancho said:


> Of course, because with 3 x fuel tanks it has a better fuel fraction than the MKI with total internal fuel and even the official figures for ferry range should make that clear, because the EF has 3700Km ferry range, while the MKI only 3000Km.


 i gave you a source it has a fuel fraction of .30 with external fuel i didnt argue on that.. with external fuel tanks it will go upto 3700 Km did i argue on that??no... but i am arguing with 3 fuel tanks getting wet it has space only for 10 hardpoints.. while MKI can go upto 3000 Km with internal fuel alone more than enough for any mission..by that time it goes out for the target it would empty half the fuel having better performance there.. where EFT has to jettisson its fuel tanks before the mission... and MKI still can go with full load of ammunitions which is not the same with EFT... EFT is an air superiority fighter no doubt but it carries less which will add to MKI advantage.. without those fuel tanks it cant go a long distance...

MKI also carries one special weapon which so far is not posed by EFT nor it is capable of carrying also...


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## angeldemon_007

> It also wouldn't included the new IRST, weapons pod, CFT, upgraded avionics etc. This means the Eurofighter, Rafale, SH, and Gripen are all on a level playing field, for the most part.


All these upgrades come under international roadmap plan. It means if IAF will select F18SH E/F, it will be given opportunity to participate in international roadmap. This means that in future if India wants these upgraded feature, they can be incorporated in SH but these features will not there in the current SH offered to India.


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## Water Car Engineer



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## the rafter

*France tries to tie Rafale with Mirage upgrade*

Insidious French attempts to link the Indian Air Force's (IAFs) long-postponed and contentious Mirage 2000H fleet upgrade to the $10 billion acquisition of Dassault's Rafale fighters in support of the IAF's requirement of 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA), have further delayed the pending retrofit.

Ostensibly, the deal to upgrade the IAFs 51 Vajra (Thunderbolt) Mirage 2000Hs, widely expected to be confirmed by end-March with fighter manufacturers Dassault Aviation, official sources said, had been further deferred beyond the March 2011 deadline following unresolved price differences over the retrofit.

The IAF merely confirmed the upgrade agreement had not been signed but declined to elaborate.

Last month Air Chief Marshal P.V. Naik had declared at Aero India in Bangalore that the "complex and lengthy" negotiations with Dassault Aviation to upgrade the Mirage 2000Hs to Mirage 2000-5 levels had "concluded satisfactorily" and would be announced "shortly" by the Ministry of Defence (MoD). But military and armament industry sources said in recent weeks that the retrofit had been "complicated" by pressure from a desperate France to "inter-relate" it to the MMRCA procurement reportedly nearing closure.

Rafale is pitted against Boeing's F/A-18E/F, Eurofighter's Typhoon, Lockheed Martin's F16IN, Russian Aircraft Corporation's (RSK's) MiG 35 and Saab's JAS 39 Gripen for the MMRCA deal that is expected to increase to 200 fighters for around $16 billion.

On 10 March, ACM Naik had declared that the MoD would shortlist the MMRCA from amongst the six competitors by end-March and "hopefully" confirm the procurement four months later in July.

Believing Rafale to be in the MoD's shortlist alongside Eurofighter and F/A-18, the French were reportedly using the Mirage 2000H upgrade as leverage and possibly even an inducement to push their fighter so far only in service with the French military.

Earlier, in January 2008 Dassault's chief executive officer Charles Edelstenne, accompanying French President Nicolas Sarkozy on his India visit had made an unsolicited offer of supplying the IAF 40 Rafale fighters pending an "eventual decision" to augment its dwindling fighter fleet.

"If India is interested, we are ready to answer (with Rafale fighters). The offer stands," Edelstenne had declared, adding that the proposal to supply 40 Rafales was a "short term measure" keeping in mind delays that normally accompany all Indian defence contracts.

"We have some experience with Indian delays. Which is why Dassault has made the unsolicited offer," he stated. At the time the MoD and the IAF declined to comment on Edelstenne's offer.

Edelstenne also maintained that French government policies were more conducive than those of the United States for smooth defence ties with India.

"Our market is for countries that want to be independent of the US. The US policy (of imposing sanctions and stopping military deals) is well-known. We are a country which sells military equipment without any preconditions," he said.

The Dassault head was referring to US-imposed sanctions on India for its 1998 nuclear tests that impacted negatively on several domestic military projects and in providing spares to Indian Navy helicopters, a measure that severely curtailed their operational mobility. The sanctions, eventually lifted in October 2001 also impacted adversely on India's indigenous Light Combat Aircraft programme, delaying its development by several years as it is powered by a US-supplied engine.

Meanwhile, the IAF and the MoD had dismissed Dassault's demand of $3.3 billion to retrofit the Mirage-2000H fleet as "highly inflated". Both concurred that each upgrade, costing around Rs 2.9 billion each, which included equipping the fighters with new avionics, advanced navigation systems, mission computers and a pulse doppler radar capable of identifying objects up to a distance of 70 nm, was roughly equivalent to the price of a new fighter but critically without the active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar.

In comparison, upgrading the IAF's 63 MiG-29 fighters presently underway in Russia was costing $964 million or a reasonable $15.3 million. The retrofit would render the MiG 29 from being an aerial interceptor and air dominance fighter to becoming a fighter-bomber capable of striking mobile and stationary targets on ground and at sea with high-precision weapons under all weather conditions.

Dassault officials, however, rationalised this huge upgrade cost by maintaining that the retrofitted fighters would provide IAF commanders the operational flexibility to commit fewer aircraft on combat missions for higher success rates, thereby rendering the programme cost effective.

Additionally, the upgraded electronic warfare systems, including radar warning receivers with instantaneous wide-bank receivers, electronic jammers and countermeasure systems and enhanced fuel capacity would keep the Mirage-2000Hs operationally relevant for over two decades.

Glass cockpits and helmet-mounted displays would complete the upgrade, in addition to arming them with Rafael Armament Development Authority's medium-range stand-off AGM-142 Raptor/Have Nap/Popeye air-to-surface launched cruise missile, specially configured for the IAF and codenamed "Crystal Maze" with an 80-100 km range. They would also be armed with MBDA's MICA, the anti-air multi-target, all weather, fire-and-forget short and medium-range missile systems.

The retrofit, which includes a Rs 30 billion proposal to augment the capabilities of Hindustan Aeronautics Limited to retrofit 47 Mirage-2000Hs in Bangalore in as many months, after four were readied in France within 40 months of the deal being inked, would, doubtlessly enhance the Mirage-2000H's operational relevance but one which senior IAF officers believe makes little sense for such an astronomical price.
http://www.sunday-guardian.com/news/france-tries-to-tie-rafale-with-mirage-upgrade


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## the rafter

typhoon77 said:


> It also wouldn't included the new IRST, weapons pod, CFT, upgraded avionics etc. This means the Eurofighter, Rafale, SH, and Gripen are all on a level playing field, for the most part.


 
It could also be true about Eurofighter? Since the one tested in India during Flight Evaluation Test (FET) did not have any A to G capability (Tranche 1 & 2). A to G predicted to be incorporated in Tranche 3, Eurofighter is expensive, EJ2000 lost to GE for LCA engine and shortage of parts due to Euro-consortium funding.


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## Gandhi G in da house

My brothers when will the result be out ?


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## dbc

sancho said:


> LOL escorted by Mirage with targeting pods! Hilarious, without a doubt the funniest statement you ever made!
> 
> As I told you earlier, just open your eyes (and your highly biased mind) and you will see the facts! The Mirage 2000s carry targeting pods to guide the Paveway LGBs they carry as well. Rafale instead, carries AASM with GPS, or IR guidance, they don't need a targeting pod for guidance


 
Typical, you proved once again that you have the stamina and guile to convolute the discussion to cover up your repeated attempts to deceive the reader. 

AASM kits are available in three version 

SBU-38 GPS + INS (with CEP <10 meters)
SBU-54 GPS + INS + IR (with CEP of 1 to 5 meters)
SBU-64 GPS + INS + Laser (with CEP of 1 to 5 meters)

AASM - SBU-64 is laser guided and needs target designation and is the only AASM variant with the ability to strike a moving ground target (Libyan Air Force G-2/Galeb??). Weather or not the Rafale image from my earlier post was carrying a SBU-64 or some other AASM variant is irrelevant. 

Try to stay focused, you claimed the Rafale went in unsupported on day 1 of the conflict. I established that it was accompanied by the Mirage 2000, so why does the Rafale deserve your praise and not the Mirage? 



sancho said:


> *and more importantly, none of these fighters carries any EW pods!*
> Once again you proved that your speculations are totally baseless, congrats for that!



French Mirage 2000 carries a Dassault SABRE (Systeme de Autoprotection par BRouillage Electromagnetiques) jamming pod below the tail fin, the antenna is located just above exhaust nozzle.


*Don't bother to reply you are now in my ignore list.*


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## luckyyy

the rafter said:


> *France tries to tie Rafale with Mirage upgrade*
> 
> The retrofit, which includes a Rs 30 billion proposal to augment the capabilities of Hindustan Aeronautics Limited to retrofit 47 Mirage-2000Hs in Bangalore in as many months, *after four were readied in France within 40 months of the deal being inked, *would, doubtlessly enhance the Mirage-2000H's operational relevance but one which senior IAF officers believe makes little sense for such an astronomical price.
> http://www.sunday-guardian.com/news/france-tries-to-tie-rafale-with-mirage-upgrade


 
so , it will take 40month to upgrade first 4 in france then rest will upgraded in india..

how much time it will take , ...and how long the planes will fly after that..?

at $40ml , why not buy MIG-35 with AESA radar..
or simplly just LCA...


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## luckyyy

bhagat said:


> *IAF won't accept any last minute offers from contenders*
> 
> New Delhi, Mar 28 (PTI) The Indian Air Force has decided against accepting any last minute offers from the contenders of the multi-billion dollar deal for purchase of 126 fighter aircraft even as *it rejected a bidder's proposal to equip its warplanes with a more powerful jet engine.*
> 
> "No offers for upgrades or changes in the original bid submitted by the six aircraft companies would be allowed as their aircraft have been judged on the basis of capabilities offered in the original bid and their performance in the field trials," IAF sources said here.
> 
> Six companies -- Lockheed Martin (F-16), Boeing (F/A-18 E/F), Dassault Aviation (Rafale), Saab Gripen, Rosoboronexport MiG 35 and EADS Eurofighter Typhoon are contenders in the USD 11 billion dollar contract of the IAF for procuring 126 Medium-Multirole Combat Aircraft (M-MRCA).
> 
> fullstory


 
so , even boeing knows where they fail ...


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## rockstarIN

luckyyy said:


> so , even boeing knows where they fail ...


 
It may be Rafale, not F-18..my guess..!!


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## Archie

the rafter said:


> *France tries to tie Rafale with Mirage upgrade*
> 
> Insidious French attempts to link the Indian Air Force's (IAFs) long-postponed and contentious Mirage 2000H fleet upgrade to the $10 billion acquisition of Dassault's Rafale fighters in support of the IAF's requirement of 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA), have further delayed the pending retrofit.
> 
> Ostensibly, the deal to upgrade the IAFs 51 Vajra (Thunderbolt) Mirage 2000Hs, widely expected to be confirmed by end-March with fighter manufacturers Dassault Aviation, official sources said, had been further deferred beyond the March 2011 deadline following unresolved price differences over the retrofit.
> 
> The IAF merely confirmed the upgrade agreement had not been signed but declined to elaborate.
> 
> Last month Air Chief Marshal P.V. Naik had declared at Aero India in Bangalore that the "complex and lengthy" negotiations with Dassault Aviation to upgrade the Mirage 2000Hs to Mirage 2000-5 levels had "concluded satisfactorily" and would be announced "shortly" by the Ministry of Defence (MoD). But military and armament industry sources said in recent weeks that the retrofit had been "complicated" by pressure from a desperate France to "inter-relate" it to the MMRCA procurement reportedly nearing closure.
> 
> Rafale is pitted against Boeing's F/A-18E/F, Eurofighter's Typhoon, Lockheed Martin's F16IN, Russian Aircraft Corporation's (RSK's) MiG 35 and Saab's JAS 39 Gripen for the MMRCA deal that is expected to increase to 200 fighters for around $16 billion.
> 
> On 10 March, ACM Naik had declared that the MoD would shortlist the MMRCA from amongst the six competitors by end-March and "hopefully" confirm the procurement four months later in July.
> 
> Believing Rafale to be in the MoD's shortlist alongside Eurofighter and F/A-18, the French were reportedly using the Mirage 2000H upgrade as leverage and possibly even an inducement to push their fighter so far only in service with the French military.
> 
> Earlier, in January 2008 Dassault's chief executive officer Charles Edelstenne, accompanying French President Nicolas Sarkozy on his India visit had made an unsolicited offer of supplying the IAF 40 Rafale fighters pending an "eventual decision" to augment its dwindling fighter fleet.
> 
> "If India is interested, we are ready to answer (with Rafale fighters). The offer stands," Edelstenne had declared, adding that the proposal to supply 40 Rafales was a "short term measure" keeping in mind delays that normally accompany all Indian defence contracts.
> 
> "We have some experience with Indian delays. Which is why Dassault has made the unsolicited offer," he stated. At the time the MoD and the IAF declined to comment on Edelstenne's offer.
> 
> Edelstenne also maintained that French government policies were more conducive than those of the United States for smooth defence ties with India.
> 
> "Our market is for countries that want to be independent of the US. The US policy (of imposing sanctions and stopping military deals) is well-known. We are a country which sells military equipment without any preconditions," he said.
> 
> The Dassault head was referring to US-imposed sanctions on India for its 1998 nuclear tests that impacted negatively on several domestic military projects and in providing spares to Indian Navy helicopters, a measure that severely curtailed their operational mobility. The sanctions, eventually lifted in October 2001 also impacted adversely on India's indigenous Light Combat Aircraft programme, delaying its development by several years as it is powered by a US-supplied engine.
> 
> Meanwhile, the IAF and the MoD had dismissed Dassault's demand of $3.3 billion to retrofit the Mirage-2000H fleet as "highly inflated". Both concurred that each upgrade, costing around Rs 2.9 billion each, which included equipping the fighters with new avionics, advanced navigation systems, mission computers and a pulse doppler radar capable of identifying objects up to a distance of 70 nm, was roughly equivalent to the price of a new fighter but critically without the active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar.
> 
> In comparison, upgrading the IAF's 63 MiG-29 fighters presently underway in Russia was costing $964 million or a reasonable $15.3 million. The retrofit would render the MiG 29 from being an aerial interceptor and air dominance fighter to becoming a fighter-bomber capable of striking mobile and stationary targets on ground and at sea with high-precision weapons under all weather conditions.
> 
> Dassault officials, however, rationalised this huge upgrade cost by maintaining that the retrofitted fighters would provide IAF commanders the operational flexibility to commit fewer aircraft on combat missions for higher success rates, thereby rendering the programme cost effective.
> 
> Additionally, the upgraded electronic warfare systems, including radar warning receivers with instantaneous wide-bank receivers, electronic jammers and countermeasure systems and enhanced fuel capacity would keep the Mirage-2000Hs operationally relevant for over two decades.
> 
> Glass cockpits and helmet-mounted displays would complete the upgrade, in addition to arming them with Rafael Armament Development Authority's medium-range stand-off AGM-142 Raptor/Have Nap/Popeye air-to-surface launched cruise missile, specially configured for the IAF and codenamed "Crystal Maze" with an 80-100 km range. They would also be armed with MBDA's MICA, the anti-air multi-target, all weather, fire-and-forget short and medium-range missile systems.
> 
> The retrofit, which includes a Rs 30 billion proposal to augment the capabilities of Hindustan Aeronautics Limited to retrofit 47 Mirage-2000Hs in Bangalore in as many months, after four were readied in France within 40 months of the deal being inked, would, doubtlessly enhance the Mirage-2000H's operational relevance but one which senior IAF officers believe makes little sense for such an astronomical price.
> http://www.sunday-guardian.com/news/france-tries-to-tie-rafale-with-mirage-upgrade


 
I think IAF should take a Firm stand on this issue , if the contract is signed now , then first upgraded aircraft will be delivered in 2014 and last one could be delivered in 2018 , 
These upgrades were meant to increase the service life of Mirages by 15-20 yrs 
I Say dont upgrade the mirages and retire them in 2020 instead of planned 2030
and buy 126+36 Gripen NG 
Navy can then opt for F35B/C for Nmrca DEAL


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## Abingdonboy

I am a big favourite of EFT, RAFELE, F/A/-18F winning MMRCA. whilst there a ae people complaint the EFT lacks A2G capability I don't know why that is an issue as this was only a problem in tranche 1-2 not 3 which is the one offered to India. 

Just one Q, if the Rafele is inducted what kind of future growth is there in the platform? EADs say India will become their 5th partner and they have big plans for future tranches/upgrades, Boeing has the international Super Hornet road map with many future upgrades that will be available to IAF. What about the Rafele? I know there are plans for AESA but beyond that?


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## kingdurgaking

Abingdonboy said:


> I am a big favourite of EFT, RAFELE, F/A/-18F winning MMRCA. whilst there a ae people complaint the EFT lacks A2G capability I don't know why that is an issue as this was only a problem in tranche 1-2 not 3 which is the one offered to India.
> 
> Just one Q, if the Rafele is inducted what kind of future growth is there in the platform? EADs say India will become their 5th partner and they have big plans for future tranches/upgrades, Boeing has the international Super Hornet road map with many future upgrades that will be available to IAF. What about the Rafele? I know there are plans for AESA but beyond that?


 
Dassault itself is in big problem now ... Still they havent linked a deal for Mirage upgrade... IAF will one day say enough of Mirage lets buy more of MMRCA... and Dassault is going to be in a big problem then... They are still in 90's era of super power.. "buy what we give".. absolutely pathetic .....


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## Abingdonboy

Does anyone know why there are NO pictures of MMRCA field trials in India?? It would have awesome to see these flying in the deserts of Rajasthan or the mountains of Kashmir with IAF pilots/aircrew, operating out of IAF airfields.


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## SpArK

National Defence Industry Extra


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## the rafter

luckyyy said:


> so , it will take 40month to upgrade first 4 in france then rest will upgraded in india..
> 
> how much time it will take , ...and how long the planes will fly after that..?
> 
> at $40ml , why not buy MIG-35 with AESA radar..
> or simplly just LCA...


 
I think it could be because its battle tested (Kargil) successfully. But there could be more to it, IAF should clarify why they prefer upgrading Mirage rather than buying more MMRCA/LCA/Sukhoi?
I don't believe that Mig-35 would be good idea, its just a prototype as of now, even more since there are none in Russian air force. The future (road map) looks rather bleak for Mig-35.


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## the rafter

Archie said:


> I think IAF should take a Firm stand on this issue , if the contract is signed now , then first upgraded aircraft will be delivered in 2014 and last one could be delivered in 2018 ,
> These upgrades were meant to increase the service life of Mirages by 15-20 yrs
> I Say dont upgrade the mirages and retire them in 2020 instead of planned 2030
> and buy 126+36 Gripen NG
> Navy can then opt for F35B/C for Nmrca DEAL



I think going for MMRCA would be one way to go, but hoping to get F-35 in future is not so good idea. India has already invested in FGFA and imagine the horror of having MMRCA, Su-30, LCA, FGFA, AMCA, and additional F-35  So many platforms, vendors, spares to keep up.



> *Indian Air Force chief Air Chief Marshal PV Naik indicated today that the potential multiplicity of aircraft types in his fleet inventory was a major cause for concern, and that by the end of the decade, the IAF would hopefully have an inventory of just five fighter types: the upgraded Su-30MKI (272), the MMRCA (126), the PAK FA/Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (200-250), the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (100)and the Tejas MK-II (150-200).* "If it were upto me, I would have a single aircraft type. But we don't live in a perfect world," the Air Chief said.


Livefist: Multiplicity Of Fighter Inventory A Nightmare: IAF Chief


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## the rafter

*Why Eurofighter Gets No Respect*
by James Dunnigan
March 28, 2011

Faced with more large cuts in its budget, Britain's Royal Air Force fears the worst. Over a decade of cutting corners because of similar economy moves is catching up with RAF. For example, a recent government investigation revealed that a lack of spare parts for the new Eurofighter limited the amount of time pilots could spend in the air. This, in turn, led to only eight pilots being certified as qualified to perform ground attack duties in the Eurofighter. While the Eurofighter is mainly an air-superiority ("fighter") aircraft, there is very little call for that sort of thing at the moment. Ground attack, on the other hand, is very much in demand. The RAF currently has 62 Eurofighters, an aircraft that will replace about 120 remaining Tornados.
Two years ago, Germany and Britain decided to cut back on the number of Eurofighters they will buy. Thus the final 37 Eurofighters Germany agreed to buy for its Luftwaffe (air force), will instead be offered for export. Germany would have preferred to just cancel the final 37 aircraft, but this would have resulted in over a billion dollars in cancellation fees. But the export option will hurt the Eurofighter project, as Germany will sell their 37 aircraft for whatever they can get, thus denying the Eurofighter consortium export sales.

Also in 2009, Britain decided to not take all of its third batch (or "tranche", as they like to call it in Europe) of 88 Eurofighter Typhoon fighters. This will cost Britain $2 billion in increased maintenance costs and penalties. Britain will take 40 of the fighters from the third batch, and resell another 24 to Saudi Arabia. In effect, Britain is pulling out of the Eurofighter program, and cancelling 16 of the aircraft it was to have received from the third batch. The British government believes that 184 Eurofighters will be sufficient, and that it cannot afford any more than that.

Originally, Britain planned to buy 232 (Germany was to get 180, Italy 121, and Spain 87.) Britain already has 144 Eurofighters on order from the first two batches, and will end up with 184. There are currently 260 Eurofighter Typhoon fighters in service, four years after it first entered service.

Development of the Eurofighter began in the 1980s, and the first flight took place in 1994. Each aircraft costs over $120 million, including development costs. Current estimates indicate that about 600 will eventually be built. The Typhoon is a somewhat stealthy multi-role fighter. It is fast, maneuverable, and carries a lot of weapons. It also can be used for attack missions. This 23 ton aircraft will be the principal fighter in the air forces of Britain, Spain, Germany, and Italy. The Typhoon is closer in capability to the F-15, than the F-22, and is competing with the F-35 for many export sales. The Typhoon was recently purchased by Saudi Arabia, mainly to provide protection from Iran.

But some users, like Britain and Germany, see no urgent demand for the new Eurofighter. So when it comes time to make budget cuts, spare parts for the Eurofighter, and fuel to get pilots in the air for training, are among the first things to go.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## the rafter

*EUobserver / Libya strikes showcase French warplane*
ANDREW RETTMAN

EUOBSERVER / BRUSSELS - Many commentators believe the Libya air strikes are a pre-election advert for President Nicolas Sarkozy. Some believe they are also an advert for France's badly-selling Rafale jet fighter.

Several EU diplomats and even one foreign minister speaking off the record in Brussels in the run-up to the Libya campaign pointed to next year's French presidential elections as a big reason for Sarkozy's enthusiasm to take on Libyan dictator Colonel Gaddafi.






*Dassault spokesman: 'the Rafale is the only aircraft in the world which has an omnirole - it can do air combat, bombardment, observation.*

But looking in detail at French operations in Libya, military analysts have also said that France is using the war to promote its badly-selling &#8364;60-million-per-unit Rafale fighter.

*Rafale jets fired the symbolic first shot against Gaddafi at 17.45 Libyan time on 19 March, destroying four tanks on the outskirts of Benghazi. The strike took place three hours before the US and UK began bombarding Gaddafi anti-aircraft bases, with the French ministry of defence swiftly posting a set of Rafale pictures on its website.*

David Cenciotti, an Italian jet-fighter-pilot-turned-analyst, told EUobserver that the Rafale strikes were highly irregular because in a normal operation the anti-air-defence bombardment would have come first.

"The French intervention is, among other things, aimed at putting the Rafale under the spotlight," he said. "For sure, the French air force was confident that Benghazi was free of SAM [surface-to-air-missile] sites, but I think it was mainly a demo."

The Rafale fighter already got its 'battle proven' stamp in Afghanistan in 2007 and will have little chance to show off in air-to-air combat in Libya: the only Gaddafi plane it destroyed so far was an old Yugoslav-made Galeb hit while on the ground.

Jean-Pierre Maulny, the co-director of the Paris-based Institute for Strategic and International Relations (Iris), explained that Libya is better in promotional terms than Afghanistan, however.

"Nobody speaks about the Rafale in Afghanistan because people don't understand the Afghanistan conflict and its objectives so well. In Libya it's very clear - we are trying to stop a dictator from killing his people. Positive French public opinion, the way the French press is reporting on this war, it all creates a certain reaction abroad," he said.

"The decision to make the first strike was a political one, not a tactical one," he added. "Promoting the Rafale is not a primary objective, but it is a secondary effect."

For his part, Paul Holtum, an expert at the Swedish arms-control NGO Sipri, added: "I understand that the 'marketing possibilities' have also been discussed with regard to a Swedish decision on whether to send the Gripen for action over Libya ... However, the air campaign might be of more interest with regard to markets for advanced missiles and guided bombs rather than combat aircraft."

Rafale manufacturer, the Paris-based Dassault Aviation, has so far sold almost 300 of the planes to the French military but not a single one to another country.

Dassault is in talks to sell 60 to anti-Gaddafi coalition partner the United Arab Emirates and 36 to Brazil. Up until late February, it was in talks to sell 14 to Gaddafi himself.

Company spokesman Stephane Fort told this website that the Cenciotti theory is "propaganda not reality." He said the Rafale was used to hit Gaddafi's tanks because it was right for the job: "The Rafale is the only aircraft in the world which has an omnirole - it can do air combat, bombardment, observation. All this in one flight, with one pilot in one plane."

French diplomats and members of the French military establishment also rejected the theory.

The former chief of the French air force, General Jean Rannou, told EUobserver: "It was not in any way a communications mission. Benghazi was hemmed in by Gaddafi tanks. If we hadn't struck quickly on Saturday, they would have entered the city and it would have been too late."

He added: "Gaddafi's air defences were not so dangerous, so the risk we took was not big."

As for Sarkozy's re-election, French contacts pointed out that Libya is "a gamble" because if the war turns ugly it could harm him in the polls.

Libya in any case did nothing for his centre-right UMP party in local elections on Sunday (27 March), when the opposition Socialist party stormed to victory on 36 percent.

"This election was dominated by worries about the economic situation in France. But I think international issues, foreign policy will be a bigger factor in the presidential elections next year," the Iris think-tank's Maulny said.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## sancho

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Typical, you proved once again that you have the stamina and guile to convolute the discussion to cover up your repeated attempts to deceive the reader.



It's not my fault when you have no arguments and come with such funny stuff that a targeting pod is used for escorts, just to distract from the fact that no EW pods were available. 




Death.By.Chocolate said:


> AASM kits are available in three version
> 
> SBU-38 GPS + INS (with CEP <10 meters)
> SBU-54 GPS + INS + IR (with CEP of 1 to 5 meters)
> SBU-64 GPS + INS + Laser (with CEP of 1 to 5 meters)



The problem is, that the laser version is still under development and testing phase only and was never ordered by the French government. 




Death.By.Chocolate said:


> French Mirage 2000 carries a Dassault SABRE (Systeme de Autoprotection par BRouillage Electromagnetiques) jamming pod below the tail fin, the antenna is located just above exhaust nozzle.



LOL, so the internal EW system of the Mirage is protecting the Rafale? 
So why the F18 Growler needs dedicated external jamming pods and ECM wingtip pods, when internal systems are enough?
You are so desperate! 




Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Try to stay focused, you claimed the Rafale went in unsupported on day 1 of the conflict. I established that it was accompanied by the Mirage 2000, so why does the Rafale deserve your praise and not the Mirage?



Who said they need it? Mirage 2000s are excellent multi role fighters (that's what I always said and why I support the M2K upgrade), that (except of recon, deep penetration strike missions) served in the same air defense and CAS missions that Rafale did as well. The only difference is that they use LGBs, while Rafale AASM. You forget that the Mirage is still the prime fighter in high numbers of French airforce, but both serves in the same roles today, alongside each other.

I can only repeat it, just look at the official statements, even from YOUR own government:






Defense.gov News Transcript: DOD News Briefing with Vice Adm. Gortney from the Pentagon on Libya Operation Odyssey Dawn 




> 5:42 - Q: So it has not yet begun enforcement?
> 
> VADM GORTNEY: Thats a tough one to say based on how you call  *do we have airplanes patrolling over Libya to enforce a no-fly zone? No, maam, we do not.* But I would say we are beginning that because were setting the conditions to be able to reach that state.
> 
> 
> 7:16 - Q: just to be clear, there are no U.S. aircraft involved at this point ?
> 
> VADM GORTNEY: *No U.S. aircraft over land at this time. No, maam*
> 
> Q: And no involved in air strikes right now?
> 
> VADM GORTNEY: *Not at this particular time. No, maam.
> *
> 
> 8:00 - Q: When did this start in relation to when the French launched their fighter jets? Was this after they had launched, before they launched? Do you anticipate launches will continue? And when you talk about critical nodes, is Gadhafis upper echelon command and control considered a critical node of his air defense?
> 
> VADM GORTNEY: First question?
> 
> Q: When did the Tomahawks first get launched in comparison to when the French --
> 
> VADM GORTNEY: *It was after the French flew their particular missions the Tomahawks were launched.* About a time of flight of about an hour from launch to impact. First impact was at 15:00 Eastern Standard Time.




*Facts:*

- French fighters made the first strikes, when Libyan air defense was not destroyed and before the cruise missile / B2 strikes began

- No US fighters were involved in these attacks

- No dedicated EW fighters supported that attacks, or recon and air defense missions


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## sancho

rockstar said:


> It may be Rafale, not F-18..my guess..!!


 
Not if the article is true and it's about a last minute offer for a higher thrust engine, because the offer to integrate the higher thrust Kaveri - Snecma engine was made years ago and the present M88 engine offers more than enough thrust. 




Abingdonboy said:


> whilst there a ae people complaint the EFT lacks A2G capability I don't know why that is an issue as this was only a problem in tranche 1-2 not 3 which is the one offered to India.



Because so far it is not cleared which weapons and capabilities will be included (funded and integrated) in the Tranche 3, that is on offer for India. The T3As that the partners ordered, are just T2s, with the setups to integrate T3B capabilities later. Neither AESA radar development, nor CFTs, TVC, engine and avionic upgrades, or the integration of Brimstone, Storm Shadow, or Taurus are fixed so far.
As long as the partner countries don't do that, it is a risk for IAF to buy a fighter where they have to pay for most of this upgrade, or that will not have important capabilities!
Look at Libya now, the RAF EFs was upgraded with some basic ground attack capabilities, but are deployed only in the air defense role and escort the Tornados. What does it tell us about the confidence of RAF in the EF and A2G?




Abingdonboy said:


> Just one Q, if the Rafele is inducted what kind of future growth is there in the platform? EADs say India will become their 5th partner and they have big plans for future tranches/upgrades, Boeing has the international Super Hornet road map with many future upgrades that will be available to IAF. What about the Rafele? I know there are plans for AESA but beyond that?



First of all, India could be a partner in the EF consortium, not EADS! Dassault is very quiet about their offer, they just stated that it will be beyond a buyer seller relations and from Brazil it is reported that Brazil would be the production hub for all Rafales that would be ordered in S. America. We could guess that India could be the same for Asia, or the middle east.
The Super Hornet options has nothing to do with India alone, they are available for any export country, just like the options of EF (TVC, CFTs, weapons, naval EF), or Rafale (HMS, CFTs).


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## sancho

the rafter said:


> I think it could be because its battle tested (Kargil) successfully. But there could be more to it, IAF should clarify why they prefer upgrading Mirage rather than buying more MMRCA/LCA/Sukhoi?
> I don't believe that Mig-35 would be good idea, its just a prototype as of now, even more since there are none in Russian air force. The future (road map) looks rather bleak for Mig-35.


 
Mirage 2000 is already available and IAF has tremendous experience with it, most MMRCAs will not be ready anytime soon and apart of the Mig and Rafale offer no commonality, which will delay training and induction. LCA MK1 will be available in the next 2 years, but requires time to be proven and ready, not to mention that the M2K-5 will be more capable. We already have ordered many Su 30s to counter the shrinking fleet numbers, caused by phasing out the Migs, with the last batch coming in 2016 only. If we want to replace M2Ks with Su 30s, it would be possible only by 2018, or later, which should make clear why it's a bad idea. 
The Mirage 2000 is the 2nd best multi role fighter in the fleet and will be an important bridge to a modernised IAF fleet beyond 2020, that's why IAF wants to have it as capable as possible and why they want a complete overhaul of the fighter (Dassault reportedly offered a cheaper upgrade with less changes, which IAF refused). The only other possibility would be, to overhaul the fighters in France, but integrate cheaper Israeli parts, but as we see at the A50 Phalcon AWACS, the more teams are involved, the higher the risk of delays. So IAF is balancing the upgrade between high capability and low risks, which makes it more costly, but totally worth it!


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## ganimi kawa

Some nice data on the proposed M2K upgrade plan ( also with the twist of the frenchmen trying to play hardball!)




France tries to tie Rafale with Mirage upgrade

Believing Rafale to be in the MoD's shortlist alongside Eurofighter and F/A-18, the French were reportedly using the Mirage 2000H upgrade as leverage and possibly even an inducement to push their fighter so far only in service with the French military.


Both concurred that each upgrade, costing around Rs 2.9 billion each, which included equipping the fighters with new avionics, advanced navigation systems, mission computers and a pulse doppler radar capable of identifying objects up to a distance of 70 nm, was roughly equivalent to the price of a new fighter but critically without the active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar.

Additionally, the upgraded electronic warfare systems, including radar warning receivers with instantaneous wide-bank receivers, electronic jammers and countermeasure systems and enhanced fuel capacity would keep the Mirage-2000Hs operationally relevant for over two decades.

Glass cockpits and helmet-mounted displays would complete the upgrade, in addition to arming them with Rafael Armament Development Authority's medium-range stand-off AGM-142 Raptor/Have Nap/Popeye air-to-surface launched cruise missile, specially configured for the IAF and codenamed "Crystal Maze" with an 80-100 km range. They would also be armed with MBDA's MICA, the anti-air multi-target, all weather, fire-and-forget short and medium-range missile systems.


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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> *Facts:*
> 
> - French fighters made the first strikes, when Libyan air defense was not destroyed and before the cruise missile / B2 strikes began
> 
> - No US fighters were involved in these attacks
> 
> - No dedicated EW fighters supported that attacks, or recon and air defense missions


 
Sancho.... wanted to add only one thing ....

EUobserver / Libya strikes showcase French warplane




> "The French intervention is, among other things, aimed at putting the Rafale under the spotlight," he said. "For sure, the French air force was confident that Benghazi was free of SAM [surface-to-air-missile] sites, but I think it was mainly a demo."





> He added: "Gaddafi's air defences were not so dangerous, so the risk we took was not big."



If Rafale tried to enter Russian Air defence .... then we can say it is a plane that is worth...


But apart from NG(if it had been developed) the only good option available is Rafale... though it doesnt have the best of all technologies but it should suffice the IAF requirement.... only big disadvantage way tooooooooooo costly...


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## KEETARP

sancho said:


> Not really, I just have no time to explain you the same things again and again, especially because it's evident that you refuse the facts just with false assumtions.
> 
> Locating a threat = having basic direction and bearing, which is neccesary to deploy countermesures like chaff, flare, or jamming.
> 
> *GEO*locating a threat = having accurate target data, that can be used to guide weapons.
> 
> The early is nothing special and any EWS can do it, the latter needs additional sensor infos (interferometry for example) and like the official sources confirmed, the F16 Block 60 with the *Northrop EWS has that capability to GEOlocate, while the Raytheon EWS on F16IN don't have it*! You disagree here to the sources you provided yourself to back your earlier points, just to not admit that Rafale has an advantage here!



What rubbish ( bold+underlined part in your quote )
Absolutely wrong facts , you are highly mistaken . I explained that same fact 12 months back on this forum , again same crap . 

ACES has got geo location capability . 
I dont have much time to write again and again same facts . I am posting the screen snap with green marker as my highlighter as substitute . 

Image one -----









Image 2 









Image 3 








First one is from official raytheon website , second one is from flightglobal news about raytheon delivering geolocating RWR , green arrow in last pic from defenceindustrydaily (did ) shows same thing again .

Good luck with your Rafale ---


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## KEETARP

On to main discussion . I am overjoyed hearing Dassault caught up in mess .

Other than hype /hopla created by pathetic & biased defence journos . Will be highly surprised if Rafale and Eurofighter could even make it to shortlist . 

My list still the same - Gripen F18 Mig35 F16 Eurofighter Rafale .


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## sancho

*Nice video of the Rafale in Switzerland, possibly during the trials in their fighter competition:
*

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## sancho

kingdurgaking said:


> If Rafale tried to enter Russian Air defence .... then we can say it is a plane that is worth...
> 
> 
> But apart from NG(if it had been developed) the only good option available is Rafale... though it doesnt have the best of all technologies but it should suffice the IAF requirement.... only big disadvantage way tooooooooooo costly...


 
This is what the US Vice Admiral Bill Gortney said about the air defenses in Libya:



> Q: How sophisticated was this air defense system compared to Iraqs, Irans, and you know, even going to back to Vietnam? I mean, youve studied these systems, and I think the public would like a sense of that.
> 
> VADM GORTNEY: This is an integrated air and missile defense system much like the one that Iraq had and has surrounded Bagdad, built on older Soviet technology, but still good capability.



Regarding techs, the EWS is for sure one of, if not the best available and the weapons aren't bad either. The only problem is cost of course, but that will depend on negotiations and customisations (Kaveri - Snecma engines, Indian weapons), but the biggest point would be a partnership, which would justify the costs and an order in high numbers.
Gripen could be a good fighter, but not for India. We have LCA in the same class and with the least political and industrial advantages, it is not a good choice for our aims.


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## sancho

PRATEEK said:


> What rubbish ( bold+underlined part in your quote )
> Absolutely wrong facts , you are highly mistaken . I explained that same fact 12 months back on this forum , again same crap .
> 
> ACES has got geo location capability .
> I dont have much time to write again and again same facts . I am posting the screen snap with green marker as my highlighter as substitute



Instead of just posting snaps, you should read and understand what is written in them!

From image 2:



> Raytheon has received the first production contract for ALR-69A(V) all-digital radar warning receivers *as it prepares to deliver units for a demonstration of precision emitter geo-location technology*.



Which means Raytheon delivers units for this geo location technology demonstration and the RWR is *one* part of it!




> The ALR-69A(V) was selected for the advanced tactical targeting technology (AT3) demonstration because of its wideband digital receiver architecture, says AT3 programme manager Rob Deaton. The goal is to demonstrate that three receiver-equipped aircraft working together can provide precision *location and identification of emitters*.



Just as the official Raytheon site said as well, location and identification, not geolocation!




> *In addition to the ALR-69A(V), AT3 requires precision global positioning/inertial navigationand a datalink* - the SADL situational-awareness datalink in the case of the ANG F-16s being used for the demonstration.



Which means, for precision geolocating in this demonstration, it requires additional sensor infos *besides of those of the RWR* and that is exactly what you don't understand. To geolocate means combining the datas of a target, gathered from different sensors in one picture and it's not only these fighters, but AWACS aircrafts that uses the same technologies (RWR, ESM antennas, LWR, IR/UV MAVS) to geolocate threats as well. 
Just like the radar arrays are not the only sensor for detection in latest AWACS, it is also not the only sensor in latest fighters. Rafale started to use these sensors not only in defensive, but also in offensive roles, F16 Block 60 seems to follow in that direction (although the weapon guidance is not shown yet), F35 will have it for sure and Gripen E/F might get it, if it will be produced. 
Against 5th gen fighters, where radar is of less use, these kind of detecting capabilities will be even more important, which is a reason why we should learn from the French and integrate similar techs into FGFA. Against other stealth fighters, the radar of FGFA will less useful too, while a sophisticated EWS with several additional sensors would be a big advantage!


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## luckyyy

the rafter said:


> I think it could be *because its battle tested (Kargil) successfully.* But there could be more to it, IAF should clarify why they prefer upgrading Mirage rather than buying more MMRCA/LCA/Sukhoi?
> I don't believe that Mig-35 would be good idea, its just a prototype as of now, even more since there are none in Russian air force. The future (road map) looks rather bleak for Mig-35.


 
Kargil succes was the success of indian experts who modify the mirage in two weeks time and fact was that franch were not even informed about it , there was a cry from the franch on it after the war as it was considered as a voilation of contrect..

The Mirage 2000 were supplied with Thomson-CSF Laser Designator Pod, known as ATLIS which was capable of delivery of Matra 1000 kg LGBs, which were purpose built for destruction of reinforced targets. These weapons were highly capable but were very expensive. It was decided to augment their capability by adding the 1000 lb bomb coupled with Paveway II laser-guided bomb kit. The IAF had ordered a number of these, but they had been supplied with an incorrect part. Because of the nuclear test performed by India, they were on the embargo list and were unable to get the correct parts sent as replacements. Consequently IAF technicians had to remanufacture this part in order to make the Paveway serviceable for use on the Mirage.
The status as of early June was that aircraft, pilots and technicians were spread around at Western Air Command bases and Gwalior. The Mirage 2000 aircraft itself had always been regarded as an air defence fighter with a limited ground attack capability. Consequently it lacked certain resources such as bombs, hardpoint pylons, tooling, testers and ground crew experience in such matters. A big push was instigated at Gwalior to get the platform prepared. By the 12th June, the IAF Personnel had ironed out most of the faults.
Enough equipment was found to make twelve aircraft at any given time, capable of delivering bombs. However bombs were not readily available to suit, so a search was made of the IAF Inventory. Vintage 250kg bombs from the 1970s that were made in Spain for the HAL Ajeet aircraft and had been in storage were found and made available. A one off trial was carried out from Jaisalmer over the Porkoran Range on the 1st June and was deemed to be successful. They were immediately rushed into service with the Mirages of 7 Squadron. Initial missions were flown using dumb bombs only. Each aircraft would be configured with 12 bombs, 1 ventral fuel tank and 2 MAGIC-2 Air to Air Missiles. The mission would depart and meet up with fighter escorts from 1 Squadron, and then fly into the Indian Side of Jammu and Kashmir, with Mig29s operating as top cover

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/History/Kargil/1056-PCamp.html

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## conworldus

It is probably off topic but I just noticed that the first post of this thread was made in 2005..

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## saumyasupratik

RBE-2 AESA V/S CAPTOR-E?

Does the RBE-2 AESA have only 1001 T/R Modules due to the small size of the cone of the Rafale?Is this true?Also how would the RBE-2 AESA and Captor-E compare?


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## dbc

sancho said:


> The problem is, that the laser version is still under development and testing phase only and was never ordered by the French government.



Lets see, you claim SBU-64 laser guided AASM is still 'under development and testing' and never ordered by the French government. 

Forward to 2.41 you will see a Rafale carrying laser guided SBU-64 AASM's with a Damocles pod in Libya last week. Don't bother claiming these are not laser guided I can clearly see the laser seeker on the nose of the AASM in the video. This and the fact that the Rafale is carrying nothing but AASM's and a Damocles pod proves you were wrong.


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## no_name

Just feels the MRCA decision is taking too long. Looking at the contenders, they make up 4 of the permanent member seats of the UNSC (a position India itself wants to bid for). This will get more political as time drags on. No matter which option is choosed some countries will be pissed for gaining nothing after all this time, money and effort. It's starting to feel more and more like riding a tiger's back.

I think they will either go for US or Russian option at the end. And since they already have orders for PAK-FA the US option may be even more likely.


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## angeldemon_007

*Is gripen also joining to show its power in Libya ??*

*Politically neutral Sweden thirsty for war*

Sweden, that is not a member of NATO but a country powerful in respect of its military, is ready to join the bombing of Libya. This means increased cooperation of the Swedish with the alliance. This may negatively impact the geopolitical situation in not so much Libya as Russia.

The Swedish Foreign Minister Carl Bildt was the first one to announce the initiative of the participation of Scandinavians in the military operations against Gaddafi. This politician, who at some point was a prime minister, is known for his favorable attitude towards the cooperation of his neutral country with NATO. As it turned out, the initiative of the head of Swedish diplomacy was backed by Prime Minister Fredrik Reinfeldt.

Before a meeting with NATO Secretary General Anders Fogh Rasmussen, Reinfeldt has proposed to send eight Swedish fighters Gripen, a military transport ship "Hercules" and a scouting aircraft to Libya. The final decision on sending a Swedish aircraft to Africa must be made by the parliament. Reinfeldt is hopeful that members of the Riksdag approve his plans.

The question of participation of the Swedes in the Libyan operation of NATO may be an example of bonding "brotherhood in arms", which may be followed by Sweden's membership in NATO. This would cause a change at the very borders of Russia - the Baltic Sea and the Arctic.

For nearly 200 years, Sweden has been a neutral country. However, this neutrality lately seems declarative. Swedes (as well as non-aligned Finland) participated in NATO's Partnership for Peace. NATO forces are conducting increasingly more exercises on Swedish territory. Two years ago, Sweden and Finland have agreed with the members of the Alliance Norway, Denmark and Iceland on joint patrolling of maritime boundaries in the Arctic and creating combined Navy and a rapid response unit.

Earlier this year, at the initiative of the UK, a meeting with the British, the Baltic states and representatives of all five Nordic countries was held in London. The meeting was dedicated to the strengthening of military cooperation in the Arctic and Baltic regions. The organization has been already called the "Arctic mini-NATO". Apparently, its future shape will be discussed by the NATO secretary general and former Danish Prime Minister Rasmussen and head of the Swedish government Reinfeldt on Thursday.

There are many indicators that it will not be long before Sweden loses its neutrality and joins NATO. If this happens, the Swedes will be a beneficial acquisition for NATO rather than a burden. The alliance will obtain a new Baltic country near the Russian borders. This, however, is not the only advantage of having Sweden as a member.

This small nine-million country has a strong army and military-industrial complex for its size. Even during the Cold War, the neutral Sweden was the tenth largest exporter of weapons. Over the past 20 years it has moved up to the seventh place, selling weapons worth nearly two billion dollars. Customers of the Swedish defense industry are the Netherlands, India, Pakistan, South Africa, Latin America and even the U.S. and Britain.

Fighters JAS 39 Gripen (the same ones that are ready to fly to Libya), CV90 infantry fighting vehicles and artillery radar ARTHUR have earned particular fame. The Swedish defense industry also produces helicopters, submarines, surface ships and radars for these systems, airborne early warning systems, tanks, self-propelled howitzers, and man-portable air defense systems (MANPADS).

The Swedish army is 25,000 people strong, but the local General Staff has developed a plan that allows it to quickly double. The Scandinavian military machine has 165 combat and 102 support aircrafts, over 50 surface ships and five submarines. It is noteworthy that the decision to build combat power in Sweden was made after the war in South Ossetia.

Sweden's participation in the bombing of Libya is a possible trial step towards membership in NATO, or at least establishing a special relationship with the alliance. How does it change the situation at the Russian borders? What kind of troubles Sweden's membership in NATO can cause Russia? Military experts Leonid Ivashov and Anatoly Tsyganok shared their thoughts with Pravda.Ru.

Leonid Ivashov, president of the Academy of Geopolitical Issues:

"I would not say that Sweden has too strong of an army, capable of solving extra-combat tasks. It thinks more about maintaining its higher status in comparison to Norway and Finland. During last decades Russia has had good cooperative relations with the Swedes. The Swedish General von Sydow was very happy that his country did not participate in the NATO aggression against Yugoslavia. This fact should be noted separately.

"However, the U.S. is carrying out an active policy of encirclement of Russia, creating a ring of military bases around us. There are bases in the Black Sea region, at our northern borders. The Americans started working with Sweden to attract it into NATO. It seems that the political decision has been made and the Swedes will be joining the North Atlantic bloc. Participation in the bombing of Libya and the creation of "Arctic mini-NATO" are steps in this direction.

"Sweden alone is unlikely to threaten Russia. However, as a part of NATO, it is much more dangerous. The Alliance is a well-honed, sophisticated American system designed to encircle Russia. In that sense, the end of the era of Swedish neutrality is not good for Russia."

Anatoly Tsyganok, head of the Center for Military Forecasting, Institute of Political and Military Analysis:

"To date, there is no consensus about the possible entry into NATO in Swedish society. Proponents point to the danger posed by Russia, the adversaries point to the costs of the membership in the alliance. However, the fact that the Swedes have been recently coordinating closely with NATO forces, and that the planes have been sent to Libya, says that the "Atlantic" vector of Swedish politics today is stronger.

"If Sweden joins the Atlantic alliance, it will create many problems for Russia both at the Baltic Sea and the Arctic. In the north, near Russian borders, a joint Swedish-Norwegian strike group will appear, theoretically able to act against our Baltic and Northern fleets. Today, NATO is increasing its presence in the Arctic. In this regard, the addition of Sweden to the alliance is a very bad signal for Russia."

Politically neutral Sweden thirsty for war - English pravda.ru

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## sancho

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Lets see, you claim SBU-64 laser guided AASM is still 'under development and testing' and never ordered by the French government.
> 
> Forward to 2.41 you will see a Rafale carrying laser guided SBU-64 AASM's with a Damocles pod in Libya last week. Don't bother claiming these are not laser guided I can clearly see the laser seeker on the nose of the AASM in the video. This and the fact that the Rafale is carrying nothing but AASM's and a Damocles pod proves you were wrong.



 Don't have to, the Rafale news blog reported about this before:



> For several days, some rafale are spotted with an unusal loadout : Apparently at least one Rafale in each flight is loaded with a damocles pod whereas the planes are only armed with *AASM bombs which are GPS guided* (see the Rafale C on the left). The best bet is that the LDP is used to feed the AASM with GPS coordinates (especially for opportunity targets). *The pod can also be usefull for damage assessment and off course for visual identification of the targets prior to any strike*




Here are the latest pics of the Rafale Ms:













> *Libya, First picture of a Rafale with full LGB capability*
> 
> This picture of a Rafale C with 4 GBU-12 and a damocles pod is the first one to demonstrate this capability on the plane during an actual war mission.
> The Damocles pod has been in opval on the Rafale in the French air force and Navy for one year and the Navy has reported its first use last January in Afghanistan but only for test purposes.
> It's worth noting that the patrol of 2 Rafale shown in these pictures is carrying a powerfull mix of 4 GBU-12 and 6 AASM... a firepower equals to 5 Mirage 2000D.



Rafale News: Libya, First picture of a Rafale with full LGB capability


More:










Note, the Mirage 2000D carries a targeting pod and 2 x Paveway LGBs as well!


And even more proves:



> ...This new alternative to laser terminal guidance complements *the two versions already qualified for the Rafale: GPS / inertial and GPS / inertial / infrared.* The new version is distinguished by a homing laser instead of infrared imager and algorithms dedicated to the terminally ill. Its objective is to engage moving targets maneuvering, land or sea, with great precision.
> For the record, the Directorate General of Armament commissioned in late 2009, some 3400 AASM (including a firm order for 680 ammunition). *Version INS / GPS / laser will be produced in series from the end of 2012.*



Mer et Marine : Toute l'actualité maritime

So what you "think" you would see in the video, is not even produced or integrated into the Rafales of French forces. 


*That's the difference between you and me, you just speculate, while I stick with facts!*


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## sancho

no_name said:


> Just feels the MRCA decision is taking too long. Looking at the contenders, they make up 4 of the permanent member seats of the UNSC (a position India itself wants to bid for). This will get more political as time drags on. No matter which option is choosed some countries will be pissed for gaining nothing after all this time, money and effort. It's starting to feel more and more like riding a tiger's back.
> 
> I think they will either go for US or Russian option at the end. And since they already have orders for PAK-FA the US option may be even more likely.


 
That politics will be important, is clear since the switch to M - MRCA, because the initial competition was meant as a fast induction, stop gap for the forces, so the requirements of the forces had the biggest importance. Then big companies like Boeing, BAE and EADS understands where this order could go to and pushed their governments and the fact that Dassault couldn't keep the Mirage production line open helped them.

If the main aim is the permanent UN seat, there is no doubt about a win of an US fighter, because they are the key for it, while other countries can only support us in this regard.
I don't agree with your assumption that any vendor will be pissed off, because this is a competition as any other and only one will win. The participating countries won't have a problem either, because India is the biggest arms market in this decade and all of them (except Sweden and Saab possibly) will get other deals anyway.


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## truthseeker2010

When is the decision expected, I have heard that Rafale have already won the competition?


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## sancho

truthseeker2010 said:


> When is the decision expected, I have heard that Rafale have already won the competition?


 
Shortlisting in the next days, or weeks, final decision between this summer and the end of the year.




saumyasupratik said:


> RBE-2 AESA V/S CAPTOR-E?
> 
> Does the RBE-2 AESA have only 1001 T/R Modules due to the small size of the cone of the Rafale?Is this true?Also how would the RBE-2 AESA and Captor-E compare?



Thales says around 1000, the figures discussed in different forums are 850+ modules. Compared to the Captor - E it will have a clear performance disadvantage (although the final design of Captor - E is still not fixed yet), because of the way bigger diameter, which translates into higher number of modules and longer range. The swashplate design, also gives the advantage of a wider angle of the field of view, but on the other side the disadvantage of more mechanical parts, which needs more maintenance.
When you compare just the AESA radars, the Captor - E is possibly the most capable one, but what's the advantage of such an high capable radar, when it is not funded, nor is the development cleared yet. The radar will not be ready in time for the first MMRCA deliveries, maybe even delays the licence production. Aviationweek reported after Farnborough, that the early Captor - E will be not mature and very limited in modes (most likely only A2A modes). The Captor M so far has AFAIK no air to sea modes, which is logical, because the EF partners don't needs them, beceause EF will not be used in the maritime attack role.

The EF and its techs are very high capable and has a high potential, but the problem is, that this translates into high costs as well. Combined with the financial problems of the partner countries, it is clear why they need us as a partner, because we would have to pay for additional A2G capabilities, CFTs, AESA and it's modes...
We will be a partner (mainly for production of parts) and therefor have to fund parts of the development, in this case of further developments and upgrades.
That all needs time and has a risk of delays, but this is exaclty what IAF don't wanted from the start! They want a fighter with good multi role capabilities, that is proven, ready and fast to induct, which all speakes against the EF.


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## GareebNawaz

Are we still planning for 126+ aircraft say around 200 planes?

There was even a thread saying we are going to buy 260 and split it amongst to com
Petitors


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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> Shortlisting in the next days, or weeks, final decision between this summer and the end of the year.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thales says around 1000, the figures discussed in different forums are 850+ modules. Compared to the Captor - E it will have a clear performance disadvantage (although the final design of Captor - E is still not fixed yet), because of the way bigger diameter, which translates into higher number of modules and longer range. The swashplate design, also gives the advantage of a wider angle of the field of view, but on the other side the disadvantage of more mechanical parts, which needs more maintenance.
> When you compare just the AESA radars, the Captor - E is possibly the most capable one, but what's the advantage of such an high capable radar, when it is not funded, nor is the development cleared yet. The radar will not be ready in time for the first MMRCA deliveries, maybe even delays the licence production. Aviationweek reported after Farnborough, that the early Captor - E will be not mature and very limited in modes (most likely only A2A modes). The Captor M so far has AFAIK no air to sea modes, which is logical, because the EF partners don't needs them, beceause EF will not be used in the maritime attack role.
> 
> The EF and its techs are very high capable and has a high potential, but the problem is, that this translates into high costs as well. Combined with the financial problems of the partner countries, it is clear why they need us as a partner, because we would have to pay for additional A2G capabilities, CFTs, AESA and it's modes...
> We will be a partner (mainly for production of parts) and therefor have to fund parts of the development, in this case of further developments and upgrades.
> That all needs time and has a risk of delays, but this is exaclty what IAF don't wanted from the start! They want a fighter with good multi role capabilities, that is proven, ready and fast to induct, which all speakes against the EF.


 

Regarding Captor-E .... what is provided to india?... it has to be definitely AESA


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## palash_kol

Boeing Gets India OK For Four More P-8I Maritime Planes
By Nikhil Gulati and Santanu Choudhury
Of DOW JONES NEWSWIRES 

On the Indian Air Force contract for 126 combat planes, Chadwick said the deal is expected to be awarded later this year or early next year. "I think with best intentions, the IAF will want to get to the finish line sooner rather than later, but what they want to ensure is that the process they take to the final selection is fair," he said.

Six companies worldwide have been chosen to bid for the estimated $10 billion fighter jet contract, the largest in the world for 15 years. Lockheed and Boeing are pitted against aircraft from United Aircraft Corp., France's Dassault Aviation SA, pan-European manufacturer Eurofighter Typhoon Gmbh and Sweden's Saab AB.

Chadwick said if Boeing is selected for the fighter jet contract, it is in a position to rapidly deliver the planes to India. *"We have the ability to provide a more rapid production approach for the IAF, should they choose to do it, that can get aircraft quicker into their inventory than they planned," he said. "We can ramp up and still work with partners to deliver those quicker."*


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## saumyasupratik

sancho said:


> Thales says around 1000, the figures discussed in different forums are 850+ modules. Compared to the Captor - E it will have a clear performance disadvantage (although the final design of Captor - E is still not fixed yet), because of the way bigger diameter, which translates into higher number of modules and longer range. The swashplate design, also gives the advantage of a wider angle of the field of view, but on the other side the disadvantage of more mechanical parts, which needs more maintenance.
> When you compare just the AESA radars, the Captor - E is possibly the most capable one, but what's the advantage of such an high capable radar, when it is not funded, nor is the development cleared yet. The radar will not be ready in time for the first MMRCA deliveries, maybe even delays the licence production. Aviationweek reported after Farnborough, that the early Captor - E will be not mature and very limited in modes (most likely only A2A modes). The Captor M so far has AFAIK no air to sea modes, which is logical, because the EF partners don't needs them, beceause EF will not be used in the maritime attack role.
> 
> The EF and its techs are very high capable and has a high potential, but the problem is, that this translates into high costs as well. Combined with the financial problems of the partner countries, it is clear why they need us as a partner, because we would have to pay for additional A2G capabilities, CFTs, AESA and it's modes...
> We will be a partner (mainly for production of parts) and therefor have to fund parts of the development, in this case of further developments and upgrades.
> That all needs time and has a risk of delays, but this is exaclty what IAF don't wanted from the start! They want a fighter with good multi role capabilities, that is proven, ready and fast to induct, which all speakes against the EF.


 
Yeah many forums say instead of 1000 it only has 834-850 but they aren't sure because maybe the image posted can be a mockup or only a prototype.Also thales cleverly say's closer to 1000 not exactly 1000 so maybe it only has 850 T/R modules.The modules are made up of Galium Arsenide does that make a difference?If possible could you provide the detection capabilities of the RBE-2 AESA against a 3m^2 target I don't think it's going to be more than 200KM's at most

Shouldn't the Rafale have smaller RCS than Typhoon due to extensive use of composites and the intake design?Also the SPECTRA would be of a lot of use here.So wouldn't capabilities be enough to compensate for the smaller diameter Radar?

In comparison to the Rafale RBE-2 AESA how many T/R modules will the CAPTOR-E have?The Captor-E is only going to be integrated in the Tranche 3B Typhoons for the RAF I believe?

Rafale F4 is going to RBE-2 AESA and M88-X with 90KN thrust along with newer OSF, SPECTRA and HMD with viewfinder?They've been improving it for the Emritereans?Which variants of the Typhoon and Rafale were offered for the MMRCA specifically?


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## angeldemon_007

> When you compare just the AESA radars, the Captor - E is possibly the most capable one, but what's the advantage of such an high capable radar, when it is not funded, nor is the development cleared yet.


Eurofighter group has approved the aesa radar finally by the end of 2010. It is now funded...

FARNBOROUGH: Eurofighter gets AESA radar deal, but Italy looks to F-35


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## bhagat

*New offset rules wont apply to multi-role fighter contract: MoD
*

The Defence Ministry has decided that new rules that relax defence offset obligations to include the civil aviation and internal security sectors will not apply to the upcoming $10 billion contract for medium multi-role combat aircraft.
After considering a report of an expert committee constituted to look into the merits of applying the new offset rules to the multi-billion dollar contract that requires the winner to pump back 50 per cent of the contract value into the Indian market, the Defence Ministry has decided that older rules restricting the investment to the defence sector will remain in force.

The committee was set up after representations by the defence industry that argued the Indian market is not mature enough to absorb offsets to the tune of $5 billion that are expected to come in when the winner of the deal is announced.

In fact, all six contenders were asked to hold their offset proposals as the decision was being taken.

In the new Defence Procurement Policy announced earlier this year, the ministry opened the offsets field from the defence sector to include civil aviation and internal security.

As per government estimates, the value of offset contracts is expected to exceed Rs 10,000 crore in the 11th plan.

It is learnt that the defence minster was in favour of strengthening the domestic defence sector and dismissed suggestions that the winning contender also be allowed to invest in the aviation and internal security sectors.

The decision comes as the Defence Ministry is in the final stages of selecting contenders who will go into the next stage of commercial negotiations.

Air Chief Marshal PV Naik had been on record to say the finalists for the deal to supply 126 new fighters to the Air Force would be announced by the end of March.

He said that he was extremely hopeful that the contract would be finalised by the time he retired in July.

While there is anticipation that a down select will be made shortly, sources say that there is no pressure on the Defence Ministry to take a hasty decision.

In fact, contenders are likely to be asked to extent their commercial offers that are set to expire by the end of April by one more year.

The ministry is, however, certain that it will conclude the contract in the coming financial year

New offset rules wont apply to multi-role fighter contract: MoD


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## SpArK

*Polish Vipers.... Wonderful view..*​

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## sancho

saumyasupratik said:


> Yeah many forums say instead of 1000 it only has 834-850 but they aren't sure because maybe the image posted can be a mockup or only a prototype.Also thales cleverly say's closer to 1000 not exactly 1000 so maybe it only has 850 T/R modules.The modules are made up of Galium Arsenide does that make a difference?If possible could you provide the detection capabilities of the RBE-2 AESA against a 3m^2 target I don't think it's going to be more than 200KM's at most
> 
> Shouldn't the Rafale have smaller RCS than Typhoon due to extensive use of composites and the intake design?Also the SPECTRA would be of a lot of use here.So wouldn't capabilities be enough to compensate for the smaller diameter Radar?
> 
> In comparison to the Rafale RBE-2 AESA how many T/R modules will the CAPTOR-E have?The Captor-E is only going to be integrated in the Tranche 3B Typhoons for the RAF I believe?
> 
> Rafale F4 is going to RBE-2 AESA and M88-X with 90KN thrust along with newer OSF, SPECTRA and HMD with viewfinder?They've been improving it for the Emritereans?Which variants of the Typhoon and Rafale were offered for the MMRCA specifically?



Exactly there is a lot of discussion about it, but based only on pics that are available on the net (and imo are PS). The GaN modules that are under development now by EADS and Thales, are more capable and will improve the radar detection range of the RBE 2 AESA in later batches and there is also talk about AESA arrays placed around the airframe of the Rafale, to get 360° radar detection (not official though), maybe similar to what the Russians plan at Pak Fa. That would counter the swashplate advantage of the Captor - E, but still I think it will remain inferior in detection range (no official number for RBE 2 AESA range, but it's expected at 140Km for such a target). 
Captor - E design as I said is still not fixed and the number of modules rumored goes up to 1400, while most of the other radars have 1000. 
All EF tranche 3A that are on order so far, will have the normal Captor M radar. The UK had funded an AESA demonstrator, for flight tests, but that's it. The partners didn't funded the radar development, nor did they ordered the T3B fighters, which will get AESA radar and it will depend completely on Indias decision, what the future of EF will be.
If India don't buy the EF, it is likely that the partners cancel their T3B orders (Italy already did it in favour for F35s) and will retro fit AESA during later upgrades in there present T2 and T3As.
That is the same faith the Gripen is going through, because Swedish forces will order Gripen E/F only when an export customer orders it, otherwise they simply upgrade their older fighters with some techs that are tested now in the Gripen NG demonstrator.

All Eurocanards are developed with high ammounts of composites and RAM materials, EF has also ducted air intakes, just like the Rafale, so the biggste advantage here is the smaller size. On the other hand, the fixed fuel probe of Rafale increase the RCS again (at least compared to clean configs), both are expected below 1m² in clean configs.
As I explained in ealier posts, the French went with a smaller radar on purpose, because they plan with multiple sensors for the future, not only the radar. They can detect enemy radars with SPECTRA from distances and even guide weapons at them, so they counter the smaller diameter with other detection capabilities. 

Rafale F3+ will have an upgrade M88 engine, but the upgrade is for less costs, not for more thrust, but Dassault offered us since years the integration of Kaveri - Snecma engine if we buy Rafale. 
The M88-3, -9, or -X with 90kN is not needed for the French forces and their aims with Rafale, the UAE instead wants higher payloads and therefor needs more thrust, so that is not included in the MMRCA offer.
What exactly the EF T3 includes is hard to say, because the EF partners still didn't fixed the development yet and as I said above, it will depend on India mainly. If we join as a partner, we have to fund certain things and if we want more capabilites, it's of course free for us to fund more.
From the techs and capabilities that are cleared and funded, the Rafale offers one of the best (imo even the best) package in the competition. If India would go for it, we should fund the integration of HMS, Indian weapons like Sudharshan LGB, or Helina ATGM, the Kaveri engine and CFTs.




angeldemon_007 said:


> Eurofighter group has approved the aesa radar finally by the end of 2010. It is now funded...
> 
> FARNBOROUGH: Eurofighter gets AESA radar deal, but Italy looks to F-35


 
Not correct, the EF consortium (the companies) pre-funded the AESA radar development till this march this year, but anything above is dependent on funds of the partner countries and that is still not cleared.

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## sancho

Some new pics and a video of a Rafale strike a Libyan ammunitions depot, showing 4 hits at different targets with AASM, at a single fly over (a capability that seems to be important for IAF, according to some reports):

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## dbc

sancho said:


> Mer et Marine : Toute l'actualité maritime
> So what you "think" you would see in the video, is not even produced or integrated into the Rafales of French forces.





> La version INS/GPS/laser sera produite *en série* à partir de la fin 2012



Yes series production or mass production may begin end of 2012 when SAGEM have sufficient orders for SBU-64 kits to justify investment in a production line. The French have ordered 300 units so far this is not enough to begin series production. 
The video is sufficient evidence for me, the seeker on the AASM is unmistakably laser, but if you prefer to believe a blog that is your choice. 

Mass production - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## sancho

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> The video is sufficient evidence for me, the seeker on the AASM is unmistakably laser, but if you prefer to believe a blog that is your choice.


 
So what are my choices? On the one hand the rafale newsblog, that clearly has more knowledge of French fighters and weapons than you have, as well as the official press release of Sagem (the manufacturer of AASM), stating that the weapon will be produced only 2012 onwards and on the other side I have your eyes. 

I think it's obvious who is more reliable and I would suggest to get some new glasses!


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## sancho

> *Ministry posers tie down jet deal - Questions to competing vendors for one of the single-largest military orders*
> 
> SUJAN DUTTA
> 
> 
> New Delhi, March 31: The Indian Air Forces seven-year effort to buy 126 medium multi-role combat planes  one of the single-largest military orders in the world  is for now mired in a flurry of questions that the defence ministry has asked the competing vendors.
> 
> This could result in a delay in signing the contract even after the IAF has completed evaluating and ranking the six aircraft in the competition, a senior air headquarters source has said.
> 
> Last month, at the Aero India exhibition in Bangalore, Air Chief Marshal Pradeep Vasant Naik said: The contract negotiation committee (CNC) is likely to start in a week or two and the contract is likely to be signed by September.
> 
> Then on March 10 he said: The cost negotiation for MMRCA will begin by the end of this month. I expect the contract to be signed before I retire from service in July this year.
> 
> *But today, on the last day of the current financial year, the air headquarters officer said there was no intimation from the Defence Acquisitions Council (DAC) on the choice of the aircraft.*
> 
> Indeed, in the defence ministry itself, there are conflicting views on whether a CNC will at all be required.
> 
> Defence minister A.K. Antony insists that the acquisition of the aircraft be transparent and comply with the Defence Procurement Policy (DPP). The DPP allows for both  the formation of a CNC or the selection of major procurements for strategic considerations without the lengthier process of bargaining over the price.
> 
> Eight global powers are backing their respective companies in the high-stakes game to win the Indian Air Force order that looks set to top $ 12 billion.
> 
> The US is supporting Lockheed Martin and Boeing with the F-16IN Super Viper and the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet; the UK, Germany, Italy and Spain are backing the Eurofighter Typhoon; France has pitched Dassault Aviations Rafale; Sweden, the Saab Gripen and Russia the RAC MiG 35.
> 
> When Naik said in Bangalore that he expected the contract to be signed by September, he qualified it by adding that dissatisfied vendors put a spoke in the wheel  *meaning that a losing contender may manipulate allegations that would lead to long-winded investigations and further hold-ups.*
> 
> This is worrisome for the IAF because its fighter fleet is being steadily depleted.
> 
> The IAF has an authorised strength of 42 fighter squadrons. Unofficial sources say that it is making do with just 30 now and in three years that could come down to 27, blunting its numerical superiority over Pakistans (and considerably less than that of Chinas).
> 
> The IAF completed the flight evaluation trials by a crack team of test pilots in Bangalore, Jaisalmer and Leh and the weapons firing trials in the manufacturers choice of ranges last year. It submitted its report and evaluation of the aircraft on nearly 600 counts in July.
> 
> The IAF officer said that the process required the flight evaluation trial (FET) report to be examined at first and then a study of the commercial, offset (re-investment) and transfer of technology offers. The offset requirement for the contract lays down that the vendor must source and/or plough-back 50 per cent of the value of the order (of more than Rs 42,000 crore) from Indian companies.
> 
> The commercial bids are due to expire at the end of April this year. If a choice is not made by then, the bids will have to be re-submitted and the vendors will have to be asked to keep it valid for another year till April 2012.
> 
> The tender requires that deliveries of 18 of the 126 aircraft be made in flyaway condition. The balance 106 are to be manufactured under license and transfer of technology in India, inevitably with the defence public sector Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) in 36 to 48 months from the signing of the contract.
> 
> The Requests for Information (RFI) for the aircraft were first sent out in 2004.
> 
> Already, IAF headquarters has noted with concern, there have been disconcerting events that threaten the process of the procurement. In December, a file on the offsets proposal went missing till it was found on a South Delhi street.
> 
> Last month, the country manager of one of the possible vendors, Dassault Aviation (Rafale), was suspected of illegal liaisoning with an IAF officer in Bangalore.
> 
> The defence minister himself is uncomfortable with US Ambassador Timothy Roemers statement that the India-US strategic partnership hinged largely on an American company winning the contract. And a UK audit report has found that there is a shortage of spares that limits flying time of pilots on the Eurofighter Typhoon.
> 
> IAF sources say that while prudence demands that the decision be a studied one, they worry that the longer the process, the more there could be controversies even as the fighter fleet gets depleted.



The Telegraph - Calcutta (Kolkata) | Nation | Ministry posers tie down jet deal


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## dbc

sancho said:


> So what are my choices? On the one hand the rafale newsblog, that clearly has more knowledge of French fighters and weapons than you have, as well as the official press release of Sagem (the manufacturer of AASM), stating that the weapon will be produced only 2012 onwards and on the other side I have your eyes.
> 
> I think it's obvious who is more reliable and I would suggest to get some new glasses!


 
I don't need glasses, but you definitely need an education to figure out what serial production means.


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## SpArK

*Which fighter would India prefer?​*
A struggle for many-billioned contract on delivery of multi-role fighters to Indian air forces is becoming aggravated. America makes the strong moves, Europe strengthens the lobbyistic potential and Russia is likely to drop out of this contest.

Indian tender MMRCA (Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft) aimed at identifying the jet to replace outdated MiG-21 is still staying in the limelight of aviation experts. According to the latest intelligence, Deli may make its final choice by mid-year. The bets are rising.

More than $9 billion is reserved for acquisition of 126 jets by the Indian Ministry of Defense. Half of these funds is fixed by an offset agreement: it is referred to the contracts which must be performed in India and by Indian enterprises. It is a novelty; usually Deli does not increase the offset part higher than 30%. Looks like India has decided to hit the jackpot in technological transfer, assuming that it would be easier to persuade the manufacturers on localization of modern components production when talking about such a scope of delivery.

Six jets are claiming to reserve a seat in the fleet of Indian air force: American F-16IN Viper (Lockheed Martin) and F/A-18E/F Super Hornet (Boeing), pan-European Eurofighter Typhoon, distressful French Dassault Rafale, permanent participant of all the tenders Swedish JAS-39NG Gripen (Saab), Russian MiG-35, demonstrated on Aero India 2007 and MAKS.
What is the state of affairs of every participant before the crucial dash?


*Multivalued Europe*

Let's start with common things. "Rafale" traditionally seems to be an outsider. And it is not about overcharge (for example, Typhoon's price is much higher) it is about much more common reasons. Military-technical co-operation between France and foreign countries is developing badly; in particular, Rafale has come in nowhere on several international tenders. For example a serious misfortune has overshadowed Rafale in Brazil on F-X2 tender, when new president of the republic has reloaded' the tender and made the final choice in Boeing's favor. Something is obviously wrong with French arms traffic and these problems cannot be solved by Dassault.

Rafale's prospects are not impressive. According to sources, close to the tender, Rafale has been charged off the tender, but Indian officials remain speechless in this respect. Even wide technological transfer package does not make the situation better; *Paris has promised Deli new RBE-2AA radar with active phased antenna array which has not been delivered yet even to French air forces, and full package of radar's program codes.
*
French treatment of offset clauses also does not help: Dassault has promised to equip Rafale with Indian engine GTX-35VS Kaveri in order to decrease operational costs using unification with Tejas fighter project.* It is hard to say what the actual Indian reaction was. Possibly they did not like the proposal assuming quite low operational characteristics of their engine.*

Gripen is also very exotic for the Indian market. It is quiet cheap and Sweden has offered a wide package of aircraft furnishings including radar with active phased antenna array. It is interesting that this jet's NG version uses the same General Electric F414 engine as American Hornet. It is known that India is considering equipping Tejas with this engine, until Kaveri will be brought to operating status. *As against Rafale, the Swedish fighter has come off with flying colours several times this year. In particular it has been sold to the Eastern Europe countries - Czech Republic and Hungaria (to replace MiG-29s) and also to Republic of South Africa and Thailand.*

At the same time, the Swedish proposal is connected with a lot of problems. Gripen's prospects as a platform passed into service for about 30 years seem very uncertain as well as prospect of its modernization during this period of time.* The jet has good aircraft furnishings, but the modern equipment promised by Sweden is currently being developed while the French equipment is almost ready to be passed into service. Some say that Gripen does not have enough range. The fact that India is not familiar with Swedish vehicles is also against Saab. In addition, specialists say that Stockholm does not have enough political heft and Deli is willing to gain some geopolitical benefits from the military-technical cooperation with foreign countries.*

Eurofighter Typhoon - pan-Europen fighter, the result of very long development, but anyway it seems quite competitive. It is a good jet with excellent avionics and its manufacturers have already signed contracts with Austria and Saudi Arabia on delivery of 87 jets. Gulf States, Japan and Greece are also taking interest in Typhoons.

Implementation of offset agreement will likely be organized with maximum craft: the question of Hawk trainers' assembly in India has been considered for a long time in accordance with BAE order, one of fighter's developers. However, this area is having some problems at the moment.

There are also some disadvantages of choosing this fighter. First of all,* Typhoon is the tender's most expensive jet. Secondly, the jet is extremely well equipped for striking ground targets but it has problems with radar operating availability. Thirdly, political benefits from cooperation with a lot of isolated companies are not so clear as in case of firm contract with a single manufacturer supported by the power of its national government (like Rafale, MiG or American jets).*

Anyway, looks like Eurofighter is shooting ahead in the struggle for place inside Indian air force. "According to the latest information, Typhoon is the main favorite of the tender, - said deputy director of Center for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies, Konstantin Makienko. - However, things are changing very fast in India ".

I must admit that "diversification" is the All-father for Indian military. They acquire different equipment and prefer to have a maximum number of different technical solutions in the inventory, thus the platforms of tanks or jets are more like international zoo from time to time. In this respect the acquisition of Eurofighter will fit the Indian policy since it is taking a list to the Russian side.


*A jump in the last carriage
*


After the final lifting of sanctions from India in the area of arms delivery, Russia has seen a dangerous rival. American MIC attracted by a great potential of Indian market will do its best to have the largest part of this pie.

USA offers two jets in the network of MMRCA tender. F-16IN Viper is also known as F-16 block 70. It is the further modification of F-16E block 60 Desert Falcon, delivered to UAE and equipped in accordance with requirements presented for striking multi-role aircraft. F-16 is well-known all over the world and the jet's most modern version equipped for striking ground targets is offered at the tender.

The jet's karma however is spoiled by Lockheed's connections with Pakistan, which have already been using F-16 for some time. Lockheed's positions are also assessed as weak in the area of the Offset agreement implementation.

The second American fighter seems to have greater chances. Boeing has initially offered F/A-18E/F Super Hornet for the tender. It is equipped with AN/APG-79 radar having an active phase antenna array, which has sparked interest among Indian military. It has no problems with decking requirements. The agreement on localization of F414 engines production is also a factor in jet's favor. These engines are intended for Tejas. However, this production can be used for the offset agreement implementation in the network of Super Hornet deliveries, if the Indians will choose this jet.

At Aero India 2011 air show, which has taken part in Bangalore in February, Boeing has demonstrated a new modernization package - Silent Hornet. It is reported that the fighter has been equipped with reduced radar signature elements, conforming fuel tanks and internal armament compartment and new avionics.

As we may see, this package will be presented at Indian tender and likely it will be the second favorite on MMRCA. Konstantin Makienko belives that Super Hornet in its "silent" version is the only American offer that makes sense. And it will struggle with Typhoon for the first place. According to the expert's opinion, F-16 has no chances as a platform.


*A draw in the extra-time*

And what about Russian vehicle? Russian success on the Indian market is traditionally connected with Sukhoi design bureau and it is a strong debut for Mikoyan during post-Soviet era. Of course India has acquired MiG-29Ks before but these contracts are not very significant compared to the deliveries of Su-30 MKI. In addition, funds from such contract will significantly improve the financial situation of MiG.

One of this offer's advantages is an onboard electronics: the jets will be equipped with Zhuk-AE radar with active phased antenna array. There are also good prospects regarding an offset agreement: the production of parts for RD-33 has already been established in India, thus it will be easy to use it for production of parts for RD-33MK engines installed on MiG-35. The fighter also has excellent maneuvering performance. The Indian air forces are familiar with MiG's fighters since they have been operating MiG-29Ks, MiG-27s and Mig-21s. The price is also a positive factor since MiG-35 is the tender's cheapest vehicle.

A great number of our jets acquired by India becomes a disadvantage in this case, especially after the barrier between India and USA has fallen. Deli prefers to operate different jets delivered by different manufacturers rather than use a limited number of models in its fleet.

Absence of MiG-35 at Aero India 2011 has also become a disadvantage and have sparked rumors about MiG fighter dropping out of the tender. According to the sources close to the industry, hardly anybody is still believing in MiG-35's prospects in India.


*There's nowhere to step back*

This situation reminds us of problems connected with MiG-35s production. The planned acquisition of MiG-35 by Russian air force won't mitigate the Indian misfortune (in fact it will likely complicate things because of production costs. It is unlikely that MiG will get a contract of such scope in the near future. The only way is to offer modernization of the existing jets along with deliveries of the new ones to all the operators of MiG's. I must admit that it is a slow and labor-consuming process.

*The fourth-generation platforms' era is coming to its end. Possibly, the Indian tender and Brazilian F-X2 are the last ones for such fighters. The market of fifth-generation foreign systems lies ahead and American F-35 has very good chances there, however, this jet has not been finished yet and it have arisen a lot of questions connected with enormous cost of its development.
*
An export version for the Russian PAK FA program has also been specified. A framework agreement has been signed with India regarding delivery of 250 heavy fighters in the network of FGFA project. These jets will be manufactured in cooperation between India and Russia on the basis of T-50.

*The Americans has already claimed both markets (F-22 and F-35), and Russia has only presented next-generation heavy platform, but with an export potential (we remind that USA do not sell its F-22). A place for next-generation light fighter in Russian air force is still vacant.
*

*MiG's experience in development of light tactical fighters must be used for solving this problem. MiG has all the capabilities to start next-generation light fighter's development and its export platform. In other words, the rival for F-35, which feels lonely without any competitors at the future market of modern multi-role aviation systems. In this case, the failure at Indian tender may by a positive factor since MiG surely has nowhere to step back.
*
Which fighter would India prefer? - Russian Aviation - RUAVIATION.COM


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## SpArK

*M-MRCA Selection To Showcase Independence & Professionalism": Indian MOD ​*






"If you think extraneous factors are going to guide our decision, then you may be surprised by the result." The words of a senior MoD officer who spoke to select journalists recently about the Indian medium multirole combat aircraft (M-MRCA) competition. As the decade-stretched competition plods toward a decision, tentatively scheduled in the next few months, the near unanimous sense -- *from rumours, reports, leaks, hearsay, background briefings -- is that the big European twins, the Dassault Rafale and the Eurofighter Typhoon -- are the IAF's two most preferred aircraft, and in that order* [It was news station Times NOW's senior editor Srinjoy Chowdhry who first suggested this in a report last year].

The MoD officer quoted above also said, "There is no political pressure. This is such a large deal that it is apt for showcasing the excellent and professional job India has done in making an informed decision which is independent of any factors, including strategic and geopolitical. The air force is the customer, not the Ministry of External Affairs."

The question now is whether there will be a full-fledged down-select -- where two, or three, aircraft will be kept in the game -- or if only the one leading aircraft will be picked out for commercial negotiations and the others asked to have a good flight home. Both possible, say sources. In the first scenario, there is speculation now about the third spot. Different versions suggest that in third place is either the Gripen or the F/A-18.

*After a decade of staying studiously below radar, and quietly emerging a supposed frontrunner, the Dassault campaign will be kicking itself for the ugly mess it now finds itself in -- the blacklisting of the company's Indian face for "embarrassing" the air force. Last heard, the French Embassy in Delhi was doing everything it could to get the IAF to reconsider, and allow Dassault's PV Rao to meet them. For what it's worth, the MoD has said the development doesn't in any way affect the M-MRCA selection process, seeing as it has nothing to do with the competition, but let's face it -- what Dassault has in effect done is to seriously piss off the customer in a competition it simply cannot afford to lose.*

Taking off from IAF chief PV Naik's fears expressed during Aero India in February that losing vendors could delay the competition with protests and appeals, Defence Minister AK Antony has reminded the M-MRCA team to ensure that the companies are kept briefed about all decisions at every step. Once a final decision is made, the Minister has directed, that an extensive briefing will be held with all vendors, and all questions/queries sorted out in the shortest possible time.
*
If the Chief of Air Staff had his way, we'd have a decision on a downselect/elimination by April. The month has begun. Don't hold your breath too much.*

Livefist: "M-MRCA Selection To Showcase Independence & Professionalism": Indian MOD


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## luckyyy

Independence & Professionalism !!

then it will be gripen !!


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## sudhir007

New offset rules wont apply to multi-role fighter contract: MoD

The Defence Ministry has decided that new rules that relax defence offset obligations to include the civil aviation and internal security sectors will not apply to the upcoming $10 billion contract for medium multi-role combat aircraft.

After considering a report of an expert committee constituted to look into the merits of applying the new offset rules to the multi-billion dollar contract that requires the winner to pump back 50 per cent of the contract value into the Indian market, the Defence Ministry has decided that older rules restricting the investment to the defence sector will remain in force.

The committee was set up after representations by the defence industry that argued the Indian market is not mature enough to absorb offsets to the tune of $5 billion that are expected to come in when the winner of the deal is announced.

In fact, all six contenders were asked to hold their offset proposals as the decision was being taken. 

In the new Defence Procurement Policy announced earlier this year, the ministry opened the offsets field from the defence sector to include civil aviation and internal security.

As per government estimates, the value of offset contracts is expected to exceed Rs 10,000 crore in the 11th plan.

It is learnt that the defence minster was in favour of strengthening the domestic defence sector and dismissed suggestions that the winning contender also be allowed to invest in the aviation and internal security sectors.

The decision comes as the Defence Ministry is in the final stages of selecting contenders who will go into the next stage of commercial negotiations.

Air Chief Marshal PV Naik had been on record to say the finalists for the deal to supply 126 new fighters to the Air Force would be announced by the end of March.

He said that he was &#8220;extremely hopeful&#8221; that the contract would be finalised by the time he retired in July.

While there is anticipation that a &#8220;down select&#8221; will be made shortly, sources say that there is no pressure on the Defence Ministry to take a hasty decision.

In fact, contenders are likely to be asked to extent their commercial offers that are set to expire by the end of April by one more year.

The ministry is, however, certain that it will conclude the contract in the coming financial year.

---------- Post added at 11:38 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:37 AM ----------

IAFs mega buy delay to cost $1 bn

For the second time in row, the commercial bid validity of the six contenders for the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) will be extended which may cost the government $1 billion more over and above the $10.4 billion for 126 planes.

Industry sources told FE that &#8220;the government is planning to seek extension of the validity of the commercial bid expiring on April 30 as none of the vendors have received any indication from the ministry of defence (MoD) about being down listed nor has the price negotiation committee been set up.&#8221;

Last year, the ministry had extended the commercial validity of bids on India&#8217;s 126-aircraft MMRCAbid by a year to April 28, 2011.

The Air Chief Marshal PV Naik had recently announced that by March end the price negotiation for the mother of all deals will take off.

However, sources revealed that &#8220;those who have been shortlisted have to be given enough time to get ready for the talks, with this extension, the negotiations for the Offsets too will get delayed.&#8221;

The ministry&#8217;s Technical Oversight Committee (ToC) is currently looking at the &#8216;offset&#8217;proposals &#8212; a requirement that the winning contractor source a certain amount of the value of each aircraft that India buys from Indian industry &#8212; submitted by the contenders for the deal.

Simultaneously, their proposals for transfer of technology, critical for the rapid development of an Indian capability to build advanced fighters, are also being examined. The chosen combat jet will be the mainstay of IAF's fighter aircraft fleet for the next 40 years. The new MMRCA will replace the IAF's existing fleet of MiG variants.

---------- Post added at 11:38 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:38 AM ----------

The Telegraph - Calcutta (Kolkata) | Frontpage | Arms deal diplomacy

As India&#8217;s military establishment sits on the cusp of a potentially game-changing strategic partnership through a $12-billion air force deal, the man who was at the centre of forging defence ties with both Russia and the US, Ronen Sen, today explained what it takes to leverage arms acquisitions for diplomatic gain.

The air force contract for 126 medium multirole combat aircraft (MMRCA) is now at a decisive phase, seven years after the efforts for the acquisition began.

Bureaucrats, diplomats and military officers agree that the awarding of the contract would largely shape the contours of Indian strategic policies for some time.

Sen, who was the ambassador to Russia from October 1992 to October 1998 and, later, envoy to the US from August 2004 to March 2009, was in both assignments required to determine the turn military relations would take.

As the ambassador to Russia immediately after the collapse of the Soviet Union, his political mandate was to restore military ties with Russia as India&#8217;s armed forces were dependent on its hardware.

As the ambassador to the US, Sen was not only at the centre of the civilian nuclear deal but also instrumental in drafting the June 2005 New Framework for the India-US Defence Relationship, which guides New Delhi&#8217;s military ties with Washington.

&#8220;India and the US are just at the beginning of getting used to systemic differences, just like it was with the USSR and with (post-Soviet Union) Russia,&#8221; Sen said.

&#8220;In this addressing of systemic differences, the US support to our national security concerns and the rapidity of the change has not yet sunk in. I do not think either country can afford to take decades as it did with the Soviet Union,&#8221; he explained at the Institute of Defence Studies and Analysis (IDSA) here. He said that the defence relationship with the US was revived by the Vajpayee government of the NDA.

Sen was speaking on &#8220;India&#8217;s defence co-operation with its major traditional and new strategic partners&#8221;. The major traditional partner was the Soviet Union/Russia and the new strategic partner is the US.

When Sen was ambassador to Russia he was instrumental in the contract for the frontline Sukhoi 30 MKi fighter aircraft that today make up the sharp edge of the air force combat fleet.

The total value of the Sukhois &#8212; the IAF will ultimately have 270 of the aircraft &#8212; is more than the estimated $12 billion that the MMRCA contract is worth.

In his insider&#8217;s view of military-to-military relationships, Sen doubts Russia&#8217;s ability to sustain support for the hardware it transfers to India. Relations with Russia have also moved from &#8220;friendship prices&#8221; to &#8220;international prices&#8221; but Moscow was not following the globally accepted norms of military trade that involves sustained support with spares and equipment through the lifecycle of the hardware.

And despite the stability of the strategic partnership with the Soviet Union since 1971, there were differences in the relationship that disconcerted India, says Sen. The Russians are competing for the IAF MMRCA contract with the RAC MiG-35 aircraft. The US is backing the bids of Lockheed Martin and Boeing with the F-16IN Super Viper and the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet.

France&#8217;s Dassault Aviation&#8217;s Rafale, a four-nation European Consortium&#8217;s Eurofighter Typhoon and Sweden&#8217;s Gripen are in the race too.

Each country is lobbying the Indian government intensely for the order, but probably none as publicly as the US. US Ambassador Timothy Roemer said only last month that the future of India-US strategic relations depended in large measure on the award of the IAF contract to a US firm.

&#8220;Defence cooperation and partnership has to be seen in the context of the global geo-strategic architecture plus the promotion of economic interest through balanced trade,&#8221; said Sen.

More than the threat perceived from Pakistan, the current emphasis on military modernisation in India is against the backdrop of a rapid upgrade by China&#8217;s armed forces, Sen pointed out.

Though there was debate in India on conditionalities the US put on the transfer of military equipment, US controls on arms sales to Pakistan would be more rigid, he said.

Defence minister A.K. Antony has been raising this concern frequently.

&#8220;Whenever we get the opportunity we tell them (the US) that they (Pakistan) are using the (US-made) arms for possible use against us,&#8221; Antony had said in February.

Sen said that military purchases should be guided with the need &#8220;to reduce our dependence and to increase inter-dependence&#8221;.

Ultimately, India&#8217;s political leadership will have to take a call on its strategic partnerships: if that entails signing pacts like the Communications Interoperability and Security Memorandum of Agreement (CISMOA) and the Logistics Support Agreement (LSA) with the US, it will have to be done.

Sen said that there was more to the 123 Agreement with the US than nuclear energy. &#8220;It was a key to open a door and once you have opened the door you may find many other doors and windows of opportunity,&#8221; he said.


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## Just Yash

GOD DAMM IT.............. JUST CHOOSE ONE

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## conworldus

Just Yash said:


> GOD DAMM IT.............. JUST CHOOSE ONE


 
India the window shopper.


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## Skull and Bones




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## SpArK

*All Gripen planes reach Sicily
​*Published: 3 Apr 11 08:56 CET







All eight Swedish JAS Gripen fighters have landed at a base in Siciliy and are now under NATO command. They can be in the airspace over Libya by the middle of next week, reported news agency TT.
The first three JAS Gripen fighters landed Saturday afternoon at Sigonella base in Sicily. &#8220;We flew via a base in Hungary and landed there, and then later continued to Sicily,&#8221; air force inspector Anders Silwer told TT.

A Gulfstream also flew down to Sigonella with technicians and security personnel.

Five other Gripen fighters arrived Sunday and an additional four Hercules planes are currently on their way to Sicily.

Silwer told TT that it is likely that two Swedish flying officers each will be placed at three combat control centers &#8211; in Napels and outside Venice in Italy, and at Izmir in Turkey.

The Swedish Armed Forces are now analyzing which of NATO's mission rules the Swedish pilots will follow. Later the pilots will be educated on the rules before they start to fly in the area.

Nine of the ten pilots who are participating in the operation have chosen to remain anonymous under the mission.

&#8220;It's a way for the pilots and their families to have some peace from the media,&#8221; Johan Svetoft, Head of the F17 base in Kallinge, told Swedish Radio (Sveriges Radio) in Blekinge.

Criticism has arisen because the JAS Gripen fighters only can attack enemy fighter planes at a time when Qaddafi's air force is likely destroyed.

Prime Minister Fredrik Reinfeldt said that he needed a broad majority in parliament, adding that the Social Democrats set those limits to support the mission.

&#8220;Then I had to kind of hold them back within the Moderate and other Alliance parties who also thought that Sweden should take a more offensive role,&#8221; he told TT.

Reinfeldt would not air his personal opinions on the question except to say that broad support was most important. He added that a no-fly zone must be monitored and that altercations can occur.

TT/The Local/gs (news@thelocal.se)


----------



## SpArK

*Arms deal diplomacy*
OUR SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT




Ronen Sen

New Delhi, April 1: As India&#8217;s military establishment sits on the cusp of a potentially game-changing strategic partnership through a $12-billion air force deal, the man who was at the centre of forging defence ties with both Russia and the US, *Ronen Sen, today explained what it takes to leverage arms acquisitions for diplomatic gain.*

The air force contract for 126 medium multirole combat aircraft (MMRCA) is now at a decisive phase, seven years after the efforts for the acquisition began.

Bureaucrats, diplomats and military officers *agree that the awarding of the contract would largely shape the contours of Indian strategic policies for some time.*

*Sen, who was the ambassador to Russia from October 1992 to October 1998 and, later, envoy to the US from August 2004 to March 2009, was in both assignments required to determine the turn military relations would take.
*
As the ambassador to Russia immediately after the collapse of the Soviet Union, his political mandate was to restore military ties with Russia as India&#8217;s armed forces were dependent on its hardware.

As the ambassador to the US, Sen was not only at the centre of the civilian nuclear deal but also instrumental in drafting the June 2005 New Framework for the India-US Defence Relationship, which guides New Delhi&#8217;s military ties with Washington.

&#8220;India and the US are just at the beginning of getting used to systemic differences, just like it was with the USSR and with (post-Soviet Union) Russia,&#8221; Sen said.

&#8220;In this addressing of systemic differences, *the US support to our national security concerns and the rapidity of the change has not yet sunk in. I do not think either country can afford to take decades as it did with the Soviet Union,*&#8221; he explained at the Institute of Defence Studies and Analysis (IDSA) here. He said that the defence relationship with the US was revived by the Vajpayee government of the NDA.

Sen was speaking on &#8220;India&#8217;s defence co-operation with its major traditional and new strategic partners&#8221;. The major traditional partner was the Soviet Union/Russia and the new strategic partner is the US.

*When Sen was ambassador to Russia he was instrumental in the contract for the frontline Sukhoi 30 MKi fighter aircraft that today make up the sharp edge of the air force combat fleet.
*
The total value of the Sukhois &#8212; the IAF will ultimately have 270 of the aircraft &#8212; is more than the estimated $12 billion that the MMRCA contract is worth.

*In his insider&#8217;s view of military-to-military relationships, Sen doubts Russia&#8217;s ability to sustain support for the hardware it transfers to India. Relations with Russia have also moved from &#8220;friendship prices&#8221; to &#8220;international prices&#8221; but Moscow was not following the globally accepted norms of military trade that involves sustained support with spares and equipment through the lifecycle of the hardware.
*

And despite the stability of the strategic partnership with the Soviet Union since 1971, there were differences in the relationship that disconcerted India, says Sen. The Russians are competing for the IAF MMRCA contract with the RAC MiG-35 aircraft. The US is backing the bids of Lockheed Martin and Boeing with the F-16IN Super Viper and the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet.

France&#8217;s Dassault Aviation&#8217;s Rafale, a four-nation European Consortium&#8217;s Eurofighter Typhoon and Sweden&#8217;s Gripen are in the race too.

*Each country is lobbying the Indian government intensely for the order, but probably none as publicly as the US. US Ambassador Timothy Roemer said only last month that the future of India-US strategic relations depended in large measure on the award of the IAF contract to a US firm.
*
&#8220;Defence cooperation and partnership has to be seen in the context of the global geo-strategic architecture plus the promotion of economic interest through balanced trade,&#8221; said Sen.

More than the threat perceived from Pakistan, the current emphasis on military modernisation in India is against the backdrop of a rapid upgrade by China&#8217;s armed forces, Sen pointed out.

*Though there was debate in India on conditionalities the US put on the transfer of military equipment, US controls on arms sales to Pakistan would be more rigid, he said.
*
Defence minister A.K. Antony has been raising this concern frequently.

&#8220;Whenever we get the opportunity we tell them (the US) that they (Pakistan) are using the (US-made) arms for possible use against us,&#8221; Antony had said in February.

*Sen said that military purchases should be guided with the need &#8220;to reduce our dependence and to increase inter-dependence&#8221;.
*
Ultimately, India&#8217;s political leadership will have to take a call on its strategic partnerships: if that entails signing pacts like the Communications Interoperability and Security Memorandum of Agreement (CISMOA) and the Logistics Support Agreement (LSA) with the US, it will have to be done.

*Sen said that there was more to the 123 Agreement with the US than nuclear energy. &#8220;It was a key to open a door and once you have opened the door you may find many other doors and windows of opportunity,&#8221; he said.
*

The Telegraph - Calcutta (Kolkata) | Frontpage | Arms deal diplomacy




Somebody decipher this.


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## Abingdonboy

Does anyone know the nature of the MMRCA field trials by IAF officials? As I was watching a show called "Test Pilots" on Discovery about the development and testing by USN Test Pilots of the SuperHornet and given the extensive testing they put it through a number of questions came up:
1) Does the IAF/IN have anything similar? I sort of know the answer as I watched the Aero India 2001 seminar on testing but I was wondering if the pilots worked for HAL or the IAF/IN as the USN Test Pilots work for their service but with assistance and input from Boeing. 
2) Given that such extensive testing was done on this platform (and I assume the other 5 contenders) would the IAF field trails have been as extensive and arduous, or just a demonstration of flying at altitude/desert?
3) was it IAF test pilots/TACDE pilots who conducted the trails or ordinary out of academy fresh pilots? 
4) what input do the IAF pilots have on MMRCA? I mean I know reports were fielded but were they technical or practical on a down-to-earth/ pilot's POV perspective (who will actually have to fly them)?
5) a side not and not really linked to ^^^ but would the MMRCA pilots be fresh faced pilots or hardened, experienced pilots form other planes as I relive the majority of SU-30MKI pilots are ex-MiG Bisons?


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## sancho

*Rafale Libyan campaign photo album *

https://picasaweb.google.com/109915371251354495235/RafaleLibyanCampaign?feat=directlink#


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## bhagat

*Which fighter will the Indians choose?
*

The competition for the multibillion-dollar contract to supply all-purpose fighter jets to the Indian Air Force is hotting up. America is making some strong moves, Europe is honing its lobbying potential, and Russia, too, is nursing hopes of winning.






Indias Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) tender to select a replacement for the MiG-21 remains the focus of the aviation experts attention. New Delhi might make a final decision as soon as the middle of this year. The countrys Ministry of Defence has set aside more than $9 bn to pay for a total of 126 aircraft. Half of them are reserved for an offset agreement, meaning that the orders must be filled in India by Indian firms. This is a novelty, as New Delhi has never before set the offset threshold above 30%.

Six machines are in the race for a place on the Indian Air Forces fleet: the American F-16IN Viper (by Lockheed Martin) and F/A-18E/F Super Hornet (by Boeing), the Pan-European (essentially British/German) Eurofighter Typhoon, the ill-fated Dassault Rafale from France, the Swedish JAS-39NG Gripen (by SAAB)  a fixture at all recent tenders, and the Russian MiG-35.

So what are their individual ratings before the final push?

Let us start with the simplest. The Rafale traditionally appears an outsider and its outlook is, indeed, not impressive. Its huge technology transfer package does not help either: For example, Paris has promised New Delhi the latest RBE-2AA radar equipped with an active PAA (not yet delivered even to the French Air Force) and has thrown in a promise of complete on-board radar codes for good measure.

The Gripen is just as exotic for the Indian market. Not over expensive, the Swedish offering is rounded off with a nice set of on-board equipment, also including an APAA radar. Unlike the Rafale however, the Swedish fighter has made some headway in recent years, with sales also including Eastern Europe (the Czech Republic and Hungary), South Africa, and Thailand.

That said, the Nordic offering is fraught with a lot of problems. The Griffins outlook as a platform for at least 30 years to come is rather uncertain, as are the chances of its comprehensive overhaul over that period. The Indians unfamiliarity with Swedish aircraft in general also seriously undermines SAABs positions.

The Eurofighter Typhoon, a product of United Europe, looks quite competitive. It is a competent aircraft with excellent avionics whose manufacturers have already secured export contracts from Austria and Saudi Arabia.

Any offset agreement involving the Eurofighter Typhoon is likely, though, to be highly convoluted: assembly in India of the Hawk training plane under licence from BAE, one of the fighter jets developers, has long been under discussion. But this whole area appears rather problematic at the moment.

Nor is the Eurofighter Typhoon without its flaws, being the most expensive bid at the tender. In addition, the benefits of political cooperation with a disparate conglomerate of firms, a serious proportion of which (such as BAE) have totally obscure trans-Atlantic connections, are not as evident as those of definitive contracts with a single manufacturer/integrator with the weight of a national government thrown behind it (as with the Rafale, the MiG, or the American jets.)

The United States has presented two fighter jet models at the MMRCA. The F-16IN Viper, also known as the F-16 block 70, is a further modification of the F-16E block 60 Desert Falcon, equipped to meet the standards expected of an all-purpose assault aircraft. The F-16 has long been well known around the world and its arguably most advanced version, specially equipped to strike against ground targets, is now offered for sale.

The Lockheed machines karma is tainted, though, by its manufacturers long-standing ties to Pakistan, which makes quite wide use of the F-16. Lockheeds positions are also considered weak in terms of possible ways to meet the offset manufacturing requirements.


The second American fighter apparently stands a much better chance. Initially, Boeing offered its F/A-18E/F Super Hornet for the tender. This is equipped with the serially-produced APAA-based AN/APG-79 radar, which aroused a lot of interest on the part of the Indian military. It also easily meets the carrier-basing requirements. The Super Hornet also has the advantage of an agreement, signed late last year, for localising the manufacture of the F414 engines. Those engines are, of course, intended for installation on the Tejas but this arrangement could also be used to meet the offset requirement for Super Hornet supplies. At the Aero India 2011 show, held last February in Bangalore, Boeing showcased its new upgrade package, the so-called Silent Hornet. The fighter has reportedly been outfitted with elements of reduced radar visibility, conformal fuel tanks, an internal weapons compartment, and new on-board radio and electronic equipment.

Russias successful track record on Indias aircraft market has been traditionally linked with Sukhoi jets; for Mikoyan, the MMRCA represents a vigorous post-Soviet debut of sorts. Obviously, India has bought the carrier-based MiG-29K as well, but the volumes of Su-30MKI supplies dwarf those deals hands down. On-board electronic equipment is a strength of Mikoyans offering: the aircraft will be supplied with the pre-installed Zhuk-AE APAA-equipped on-board radar. The offset prospects also look good: India has already localised manufacture of the third-generation RD-33 engines for these same MiG-29Ks, which is now easy to retool or expand to accommodate the MiG-35s RD-33MK. The fighters manoeuvrability is also assessed as excellent. The Russian proposal has the value advantage as well, with the MiG-35 being among the cheapest aircraft competing in the tender.

Which fighter will the Indians choose? | Russia & India Report


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## SpArK

^^^^

Already posted in the last page.


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## bhagat

^^^^oops...sorry


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## luckyyy

New Delhi: The Eurofighter Typhoon in combat for the first time over Libya. And the Indian Air Force is watching with deep interest. The aircraft is one of six competing for the MMRCA tender. And recent reports give the Eurofighter and the French Rafale the edge in the competition.
Air Marshal PK Barbora, Ex Vice Chief of Air Staff said, "The Air Force is not looking at price. That's not our area of concern. What we want is QRs are focussed on technical aspects, latest technology. Lot is available in the market and there is potential for future growth."
The EuroFighter and the Rafale are relatively new aircraft and in that sense, state of art. The Eurofighter entering service with six air forces in the last few years. And the Rafale in service with the French Air Force.
Air Commodore Jasjit Singh, Director, Centre for Air Power Studies said, "We've bought a huge amount of arms from the US already. In comparision, the last few years, hardly anything from Europe. Therefore, you could make an adjustment and spread your eggs in different baskets."
Subtle weaknesses could rule out some of the contenders. Boeing's F18 is huge and the IAF isn't keen on planes that heavy. Sweden's Gripen is deadly but India's Light Combat Aircraft could be improved to match it. Lockheed Martin's F-16 is also flown by Pakistan.
But,* India urgently needs more fighters. The new planes will take ten years to come, even after the deal is signed. An offer for second hand planes, over and above the new ones being negotiated, could sweeten the deal.*
The crucial element now, is political capital. How India can leverage the world's biggest fighter aircraft tender for larger gains.

IAF vies for $ 10 bn combat aircraft deal - India News - IBNLive


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## sancho

*IF* the recent reports are true that Rafale and EF are the leading, what are the reasons, what advantages to both offer compared to the other contenders?

From a technical point of view a high TWR, good maneuverability and by the fact that they are the newest designs, also a higher future potential could be a point. Besides the technical side, they also have commonality in terms of high ToT and low restrictions in their offers, which seems to be an important requirement from the start, while the latter should be important for IAF.


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## SpArK




----------



## SpArK




----------



## sancho

> *Defence offset policy to be changed*
> 
> Huma Siddiqui
> 
> New Delhi: With the government *seeking revised offset proposals* from the six contenders for the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) deal *by April 15*, a comprehensive defence offset policy is in the offing and is likely to be released early next month.
> 
> The new policy will seek to do away with any ambiguity currently there, say defence ministry sources.
> 
> According to industry sources, A letter has been sent by the government to all the vendors seeking revised offset proposals on Monday evening. *This is an indication that the things are back on track*.
> 
> The detailed policy is expected to concretise the opening of the civil aviation and internal security in more certain terms, so that there will be no room for confusion, added sources. The defence offsets policy is likely to bring in $10 billion during the 11th Five-Year Plan period (2007-11).
> 
> Talking to FE, sources said, *The changes are likely to provide invitations to offer offsets proposals to be issued to only those vendors who are validated as technically qualified by the respective service. The shortlisted vendor will be invited for opening of their respective commercial bids.*
> 
> Currently, both technical and commercial offsets proposals need to be submitted by all vendors competing in a tender. Under the current policy the technical offsets proposals are examined and validated by the Technical Offsets Evaluation Committee, and the commercial offsets are submitted as sealed proposals, to be opened only when the respective commercial offer for the vendor is opened.
> 
> According to sources, the changes are being designed to help the MMRCA tender process, which is governed by the Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP) 2006 and plans to seek a legal route for approval to implement the revision with retrospective effect.
> 
> Nidhi Goyal, director, Deloitte in India, said, In a medium multi-role combat aircraft deal for the supply of 126 state-of-the-art fighter jets to the Indian Air Force, the selected supplier would require to meet offset obligation of 50% of the foreign exchange component of the value of the total deal of $10.8 billion. Out of which an estimated offset business to an extent of $ 4 billion is likely to be generated for the Indian industry.
> 
> Adding, It is expected to stimulate growth in the Indian defence industry which should be able to absorb the cutting edge technologies to acquire domain expertise in aerospace manufacturing and defence electronics. Further, with other big ticket procurements such as maritime aircrafts, helicopters, sea-hawks, anti-submarine warfare in military aerospace segment, business for the Indian industry at least to the tune of $8 billion is likely to flow over a period of 5-10 years.
> 
> Also, discussions are going on between the government agencies as well as industry bodies about the eligibilty of a wholly-owned subsidiary of a foreign company, though India registered, for offsets. It would need to modify its share holding pattern and bring it to 74% Indian Holding for it to be eligible for offsets, unless special dispensation to it is permitted by the government.



Defence offset policy to be changed


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## BATMAN

SpArK said:


> ^^^^
> 
> Already posted in the last page.


 
So what? who cares! it is quite fair to keep posting until some one answer the question!  
'Which fighter Indians will Choose'?
If you are wise enough than answer the question! instead of complaining!!!!


----------



## sancho

BATMAN said:


> So what? who cares! it is quite fair to keep posting until some one answer the question!
> 'Which fighter Indians will Choose'?
> If you are wise enough than answer the question! instead of complaining!!!!


 
The problem is only that nobody asked a question and it was about a double post of a news report, so nothing wrong with SpArKs hint and I'm sure bhagat took it the right way. No need to make more out of it, then there is!


----------



## SpArK

BATMAN said:


> So what? who cares! it is quite fair to keep posting until some one answer the question!
> 'Which fighter Indians will Choose'?
> If you are wise enough than answer the question! instead of complaining!!!!


 
Height of stupidity.... as always.


----------



## sancho

> *How Libya is a showcase in the new arms race*
> 
> A few months later, Saudi Arabia, which buys the vast bulk of its arms from the United States, had concerns about quality. Unhappy about the number of GBU-10 laser-guided bombs that had failed to explode when used against Houthi rebels in Yemen, according to a dispatch from the Riyadh embassy, Saudi officials asked how the number of duds compared with the failure rate of the same weapon in Afghanistan.
> 
> In response, a visiting US general described the US Air Forces careful cradle-to-grave testing and maintenance on its bombs. Saudi officials also complained about a lack of progress in obtaining US munitions and technology for strikes in Yemen. In the same Jan. 2010 meeting, the Royal Saudi Air Force chief said that when the US sold its weaponry, it was like a car dealer selling five cars, but with only eight tyres. Saudi Arabia is crucial to US weapons makers who are discussing a huge arms package valued at over $60 billion including 84 F-15 fighter jets and 70 Apache helicopters built by Boeing.
> 
> When it comes to Libya, Paris was almost as eager to take on Gaddafi as it was to open up military ties after the EU lifted an arms embargo on the country in 2004. But France was not alone in wooing the country after Gaddafi renounced weapons of mass destruction.
> 
> In conversation with an aide to Gaddafis son Saif al-Islam in Dec. 2009, US embassy officials in Tripoli referred to an offer for purchases or refurbishment of C-130 transport planes and military exchange and training opportunities, according to a diplomatic cable from that month. The cable also mentioned a US offer to Gaddafis younger son Khamis to travel around the United States to tour US military installations. There was no indication how the conversation was followed up. Khamis, whose forces are fighting the revolt against his fathers rule, is the commander of the militarys elite 32nd brigade, seen by many analysts as the best-trained unit in Libya.
> 
> The same cable also suggested that Washington had resisted Libyan requests for MH-6 Little Bird light assault helicopters, and noted Libyan complaints about slow progress in refurbishing Vietnam-era M113 armoured personnel carriers. Lockheed Martin, manufacturer of the C-130 transporter, declined to comment. The State Department did comment for this article.
> 
> MOST UNSEEMLY *In the immediate PR battle over Libya, analysts say the Rafale appears to be winning. Not only was it handed a front-page role on the first day of the conflict, but it also scored a symbolic victory by reaching Libya equipped for air-to-ground attack, something the Typhoon has so far only done in tests. The Typhoon is focusing instead on air-to-air warfare against an enemy whose air force has been more or less pinned to the ground by strikes on radars and air defences.*
> 
> French officials dismiss any suggestion of deliberate showmanship in the deployment of Rafales in the opening hours of the conflict, saying their flexibility made them right for the task of destroying tanks that were closing on rebel positions in eastern Libya. But there is no doubt the lead taken by Sarkozy signals a more confident diplomatic posture that France hopes will benefit Rafale sales indirectly. Countries buying fighters must be ready to invest in a diplomatic relationship lasting 30 or 40 years, and competitors are bracing for an all-out French sales offensive once the conflict is over, or even before.
> 
> Sarkozy has done a great job in getting the Rafale out there and hitting a convoy early on. He will go to export markets and say this is what our planes can do, said a defence executive from a rival arms producing nation.
> 
> Thats something Washington will watch closely. Despatches over many months show US efforts to track the hyperactive French president during official visits as he campaigned from Libya to Brazil, India and the United Arab Emirates, for the first foreign sale of the Rafale. US officials were so outraged by the frothiness surrounding Sarkozys two-day trip to open a French naval base in Abu Dhabi in May 2009 - a poorly planned French military manoeuvre interrupted vital fuel deliveries to Afghanistan - that the US ambassador reported the visit had brought out the most unseemly aspects of both host and visitor. The Emirati desire to be the object of unrestrained praise met its match in the French willingness to abase themselves in front of rich clients, *according to the confidential cable. French defence sources say unflattering things about US lobbying too.* (  )
> 
> Another potential customer the French and the Americans are fighting over is Brazil, where the Rafale was until recently seen as best-placed to beat the US-made F/A-18 and Swedens Gripen. Brazil is the focus of a fierce diplomatic contest between Sarkozy and US President Barack Obama to win an order for 36 fighter planes. Obama visited Brazils new president last month and Sarkozy is expected to follow suit.
> 
> Arms exporters typically do well at times of international instability. But they also depend on budget stability in their home country. Thats because arms importers prefer to buy from places whose own armed forces are signing up for the same weapons, guaranteeing future support and spares.
> 
> Turmoil in the Middle East emerged just as defence officials and lawmakers were gearing up to cut U.S. defence spending, which accounts for half of the worlds arms business, for the first time in a decade or more. The ferment may make it harder for American lawmakers to argue the case for immediate cuts - though it may also, analysts say, encourage them to scrutinise more closely the release of technology to loyal buyers whose governments are looking less stable.
> 
> There are probably positive impacts over the next five years on the defence industry because of what has happened in the last couple of weeks. When the US military is used as it is being used in Libya, and in an invisible humanitarian sense in Japan, it probably discourages the Congress from taking an axe to the defence budget, said Joel Johnson, analyst with Virginia-based Teal Group.
> 
> At the same time, defence industry executives and military officials say they do not expect a return to the double-digit revenue growth seen after the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks - given the sheer size of the US deficit and a generally more sober approach to military requirements and programmes.
> 
> Were probably facing a flat period of US spending, Johnson said, but flat at pretty high levels. reuters



Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan



Some notes, personally I can't agree with the point that France went to war to show of the Rafale, because the opposite is the case. The Libyan war is the first time that the Eurofighter, F16 B60, or Gripen entered a real war (although only in air policing roles and after the air force and ground threats were destroyed), while Rafale is doing the same roles that they did in Afghanistan as well. 
As we all know (on most of us don't like) Dassault is very quiet when it comes to PR and they could simply hype the Afghanistan missions, where no competitiors is arround to have easy PR, instead of inviting the rivals to show their capabilities as well.

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## SpArK

*Nato lacking strike aircraft for Libya campaign​*
*US withdrawal of attack planes puts pressure on European countries, especially France, to offer more strike capability*









_A Danish F-16 after a mission over Libya. European countries are under pressure to supply more attack aircraft for the Nato campaign. Photograph: Joachim Adrian/AP_


Nato is running short of attack aircraft for its bombing campaign against Muammar Gaddafi only days after taking command of the Libyan mission from a coalition led by the US, France and Britain.

David Cameron *has pledged four more British Tornado jets on top of eight already being used for the air strikes. But pressure is growing for other European countries, especially France, to offer more after the Americans withdrew their attack aircraft from the campaign on Monday.*

"We will need more strike capability," a Nato official said.

Since the French launched the first raids on Libya 16 days ago, the coalition and Nato have destroyed around 30% of Gaddafi's military capacity, Lieutenant General Charles Bouchard, the Canadian officer leading the air campaign, told Nato ambassadors.

But attempts to "degrade" the Libyan leader's firepower further were being complicated by a shift in tactics by Gaddafi, said Brigadier General Marc van Uhm, a senior Nato military planner.

"They are using light vehicles and trucks to transport," while hiding tanks and heavy weapons, he said.

"We try to identify where those heavy assets are, because we have seen they have chosen to hide themselves into urban areas to prevent being targeted, even using human shields."

Nato officials insisted the pace of the air operations was being maintained. But it has emerged that the US and the French, who have been the two biggest military players until now, are retaining national control over substantial military forces in the Mediterranean and refusing to submit them to Nato authority.

The French have the Charles de Gaulle aircraft carrier, two escorting frigates and 16 fighter aircraft, none of which are under the Nato command and control which was announced last Thursday.

Until last week, President Nicolas Sarkozy was the loudest opponent of handing over the operations to Nato control.* Nonetheless, the French are not only taking part in the Nato campaign, but are the biggest non-US contributors, with 33 aircraft, double Britain's 17. Not all of these are strike aircraft.
*

Until Monday, the Americans had performed most of the attacks on ground targets, with the French executing around a quarter and the British around a 10th. Given the US retreat, Nato is seeking to fill the gap, but only the British have pledged more.

"We're very happy that one country decided to bring in more assets," said Van Uhm.

When Nato took over from the coalition it was stressed that it had assumed "sole command and control" of all air operations.

However, countries are dipping in and out of Nato command, withdrawing "air assets" for national operations before returning them to alliance control.

"It's pretty clear that Nato is in command. Nato is in the lead," said Van Uhm. "There are assets under national control in the area. But General Bouchard is commanding what Nato does ... You could say nothing is happening without Nato knowing."

The general stressed that no air strikes on ground targets in Libya had taken place outside Nato's command.

Six countries are believed to be engaged in the bombing campaign &#8211; France, Britain, Canada, Denmark, Belgium, and Norway &#8211; with many others involved in policing an arms embargo and enforcing a no-fly zone.

Gaddafi's air force had been grounded, Van Uhm said.

In London, the Ministry of Defence said RAF aircraft had struck targets in Libya on each of the past three days.

Tornado GR4 ground attack planes, flying from the Italian airbase of Gioia del Colle, hit a battle tank and two surface-to-air missile launchers near Sirte on Monday when they launched three anti-armour Brimstone missiles. The previous day, they fired Paveway IV bombs and Brimstone missiles to target a group of 10 armoured vehicles south of Sirte.

*On Saturday, they fired Paveway IV missiles at two tanks in Sirte and also hit "several small ground attack aircraft" on an airfield near Misrata, the MoD said.*

*Two of the 10 Eurofighter/Typhoons based in Italy have returned to the UK. The Typhoons are not equipped to conduct ground attack operations.
*

Nato lacking strike aircraft for Libya campaign | World news | guardian.co.uk


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## luckyyy

> US withdrawal of attack planes
> But attempts to "degrade" the Libyan leader's firepower further were being complicated by a shift in tactics by Gaddafi, said Brigadier General Marc van Uhm, a senior Nato military planner.
> 
> 
> "They are using light vehicles and trucks to transport," while hiding tanks and heavy weapons, he said.
> 
> "We try to identify where those heavy assets are, because we have seen they have chosen to hide themselves into urban areas to prevent being targeted, even using human shields."



so , why did US withdrar their attack planes ?

shift in tactics by Gaddafi to use light vehicles and trucks to transport , does that mean non-US radars on their planes don't have capabilities to identify those....

try to connect the two , isn't it clear that libya is just a marketing gimmick by these countries involoved..


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## kingdurgaking

Not sure this image is posted...

Rafale with CFT !!!!!


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## sancho

luckyyy said:


> so , why did US withdrar their attack planes ?
> 
> shift in tactics by Gaddafi to use light vehicles and trucks to transport , does that mean non-US radars on their planes don't have capabilities to identify those....
> 
> try to connect the two , isn't it clear that libya is just a marketing gimmick by these countries involoved..


 

Because the campain was handed over to NATO and the US / Obama said from the start, that they will intervene only till that happens, because they already have 2 wars running in Iraq and Afghanistan. That was also a reason why no real carrier was deployed, only fighters form air bases and amphibous carriers with Sea Harriers. 

On a personal note, good to see an US president not deploying their troops only for oil, Bush would have send ground forces and stayed there till he got control over the Libyan oil fields.




SpArK said:


> Two of the 10 Eurofighter/Typhoons based in Italy have returned to the UK. The Typhoons are not equipped to conduct


 
I wonder why the they returned to the UK, when there are already not enough fighters and the RAF EF T2s were upgraded with litening targeting pod and paveway 2 LGBs and still can't help in the A2G role, which shows how limited their A2G capaility is. 
However, that should be interesting for IAF too, because they have focused on the same 1000lb Paveway 2 bomb kits, as well as 1000lb Russian PGMs in CAS, while the western forces switched to lighter 500lb Paveway IV, or AASM PGMs, because they can be carried in higher numbers and gives less risks in terms of collateral damage. The trend seems to go to even lighter versions like the US small diameter bomb, or the French AASM 125 (250lb)!


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## sancho

> *Libya, Rafale + AASM Sead capability demonstrated*
> 
> More details about the air strikes performed by the French Air Force and Navy are leaked since a few days. Thanks to Defense journalist JD Merchet, We learned yeasterday that one of the very first AASM strike in Libya on march 21st, was done *at an outstanding range of 55 km from the target !*
> Moreover, Defense journalist Jean Guisnel, reveals today that Rafale fighters loaded with AASM had conducted direct air strike on an SA-3 sam site, *turning down the help of specialized SEAD fighter support offered by the USA.*
> 
> These 2 examples illustrate perfecly the unique abilities of this new weapon for SEAD missions against medium range SAM sites. Range, accuracy, fire and forget, all weather capability, relative speed, inflight targeting flexibility (targets coordinates can be uploaded from many sources) make it a very varsatile weapon.
> 
> Also on Mr Guisnel blog, we can read that 11 scalps was fired during the March 23-24th night against the al-Joufra Air base, deep inside the Libyan territory. Apparently, 4 of the missiles were delivered by Rafale M and 7 by mirage 2000D (to be confirmed). All of them hit their target among wich was a command center.



Rafale News: Libya, Rafale + AASM Sead capability demonstrated


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## SpArK

Livefist: CNN-IBN REPORT: Eurofighter, Rafale Lead MMRCA Pack


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## casual

when is a decision going to be made?


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## sancho

> *The Long Road to the MMRCA Shortlist*
> 
> April 5, 2011
> By Saurabh Joshi
> 
> The Indian Air Force (IAF) commander Air Chief Marshal Pradeep Vasant Naik had announced in February at Aero India 2011 in Bangalore that the shortlist for the 126 Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) tender would be announced in the next few weeks. Then a few weeks back, he upped the pressure on the Ministry of Defense again, while addressing the Indian Womens Press Corps. Indo-Asian News Service reported him as saying, *The cost negotiation for MMRCA will begin by the end of this month. I expect the contract to be signed before I retire from service in July this year.*
> 
> This pressure is likely intended to get the ministry to move on the outstanding issues related to the MMRCA tender process. Work remains to be done for it to be taken to its logical conclusion (The response this pressure elicits may well be a separate soap opera altogether). But the ministry is also under pressure to meet the April-end deadline for the expiry of the commercial offers submitted by the six vendors. The MMRCA-6 vendors were required to either extend the validity of their bids or resubmit them last year, after they expired.
> 
> The key issue holding up movement right now is the business of evaluating offsets for the estimated USD 10 billion contract. The terms of the tender mandate the winning vendor to plough back 50 per cent of the value of the contract into India, something that is hoped to boost Indian defense industry. Although the MMRCA tender is governed by the Defense Procurement Procedure (DPP) of 2006, which generally mandates a 30 per cent offset requirement, an exception was made in the case of the fighter aircraft purchase, keeping in mind the expected value of the contract.
> 
> New rules under the DPP of 2011, announced in January, expanded the canvas of options for offset investments to include sectors and services like civil aviation, homeland/internal security and training. This was largely because the MMRCA-6 complained of the existing inability of Indian defense industry to absorb work under offsets, in any substantial manner. Defense Minister Arackaparambil Kurian Antony, however, made clear that these rules would not apply with retrospective effect, precluding the six fighter aircraft manufacturers from taking advantage of the increased options.
> 
> StratPost recently reported moves by the ministry to amend the DPP to change the offset evaluation process by inviting only vendors shortlisted as technically qualified to submit offset proposals, and get Law Ministry approval to apply them with retrospective effect, so as to ease the amount of work involved in offset evaluation.
> 
> The Technical Offsets Evaluation Committee of the Defense Ministry has been struggling to formulate the requirements for the offset proposals that the vendors would have to match, with a series of delays, and still no terms set in black and white. The last date of January 28 proposed, by which vendors would have to submit offsets proposals that were compliant with the requirements of the ministry, whistled past, with nary a word about the amended requirements. The MMRCA-6 were told to hold on until further notice...
> 
> ...The technical offset offer is different from the commercial offset offer in that it does not contain the commercial values of the offset proposals.
> 
> The procedure also says: These Commercial Offset Offers would be opened along with the main commercial offer. The CNC would verify that the Commercial Offset Offers meet the stipulated offset obligations.
> 
> This means that the evaluation of the technical offsets offers has to be completed before the commercial offset offers are examined, simultaneous with the opening of the commercial bids. *It should be noted that the commercial offset offers have no bearing on the determination of the L1 (lowest bidding and technically qualified) vendor.*
> 
> A question that immediately arises from this is how the respective Commercial Offset Offers would remain valid, submitted as they are in sealed envelopes, if the Technical Offset Offers have not been validated yet by the Technical Offset Evaluation Committee? Even if the DPP is amended with retrospective effect, the ministry would then have to validate technical offsets proposals from the selected vendors and iron-out any mismatch with the existing commercial offsets proposals.
> 
> Unlike as laid down in DPP 2008 and 2011, under the 2006 procedure, there is no provision for the selected L1 to be able to amend the commercial offset offer after it is opened.
> 
> The DPP says the Technical Offset Evaluation Committee will examine the technical offset offers and shortlist the vendors meeting the offset obligations. [The language in the 2008 and 2011 iterations reads: The (Technical Offset Evaluation) Committee will examine the compliance of technical offset offers by the vendors for meeting the offset obligations.]
> 
> There has been speculation that none of the aircraft are fully technically compliant with the Air Staff Qualitative Requirements (ASQR). If this is indeed the case, in theory, the ministry could simply select the single most compliant aircraft open its commercial bid. In this Resultant Single Vendor scenario, the Contract Negotiation Committee (CNC) would then have to arrive at a benchmark of the price it will consider reasonable.
> 
> The CNC will only open the sealed commercial offers of the technically accepted vendors. In case of procurement of new equipment on single vendor/resultant single vendor basis, CNC should establish a benchmark and reasonableness of price in an internal meeting before opening the commercial offer, says the DPP.
> 
> If the L1 vendors price is found to match the benchmark, further negotiations are discouraged. Once the commercial offers are opened and the price of the vendor is found to be within the benchmark fixed, in the internal meeting, there should be no need to carry out any further price negotiations. The RFP in such multi-vendor cases, should clearly lay down that no negotiations would be carried with the L1 vendor.
> 
> There is room for an exception though. In multi-vendor cases, on opening of commercial offers, once L1 vendor is identified the contract should be concluded with him and there would be no need for any further price negotiations. However, negotiations can be held in exceptional circumstances where valid logical reasons exist and such negotiations should be held only with L1.
> 
> But a Resultant Single Vendor selection would also mean that the L1 vendors pricing would not be subject to contest from any other vendor. The ministry could also end up with sticker shock, and have to deal with a substantial mismatch between the benchmark price range arrived at by the CNC and the bid submitted by the vendor.
> 
> *In the event of such a situation, where no aircraft is fully compliant, it would perhaps make more sense to avoid a Resultant Single Vendor shortlist and select those aircraft that satisfy the essential must-haves of the IAF. This would also allow for a wider range of offsets proposals, besides ensuring price competition.*
> 
> Another issue, although perhaps not as obviously crucial, is that of Transfer of Technology (ToT). The DPP considers it desirable that the Licensed Production contract be negotiated along with the contract for the finished product. In cases where this is not feasible, the purchase contract should include a clause wherein the vendor agrees to negotiate the license contract at a subsequent date, thus obtaining a commitment from the vendor to part with the ToT. In cases, where ToT for Maintenance Infrastructure is being sought, the maintenance contract involving the OEM and the industry receiving the technology would also be negotiated along with the main contract.
> 
> The problem with this is that any negotiation on Licensed Production and ToT that takes place after the selection of the winning aircraft would put the ministry in a position of disadvantage. An agreement in this regard may be less than optimal for India, as the winning vendor, sitting pretty after selection, might not be overly inclined to bend to Indian requirements. *Licensed Production and ToT should be seen as at least as important as the aircraft purchase itself, as they have the potential to provide the skills, knowledge and investment to jump-start the Indian defense and aerospace industry.* Anything less would mean India shortchanged...
> 
> ...The IAF commander had couched his optimism with a caveat  provided dissatisfied vendors do not put a spoke in the wheel and delay proceedings. *The announcement of a shortlist is unlikely to see the spurned vendors go away quietly*. Defense deals in India are keenly-followed, considering the number of times theyve fallen on the wrong side of the line of propriety and been canceled. Observers are therefore unsure if the government would hand over another possible brickbat to the opposition, so soon.
> 
> *But if the commercial bids are not opened by April 28, the government would have to ask the vendors to resubmit or extend the validity of their commercial bids, again.* This is being seen as something to which ministry officials now appear increasingly resigned and for which the MMRCA-6 should be ready



The Long Road to the MMRCA Shortlist | StratPost


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## BATMAN

casual said:


> when is a decision going to be made?


 
By the end of every year.


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## BATMAN

SpArK said:


> Livefist: CNN-IBN REPORT: Eurofighter, Rafale Lead MMRCA Pack


 
Is it a rally race.. every cycle a different lead.

What grounds does news have for their leak?

India needs nuclear technology hence we can narrow to France or US but US can help in weapon making as well.

So chances of hornet are more than any other, flying machine.

News is just propaganda... perhaps could help in negotiating price!


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## SpArK

*UK commits Eurofighter Typhoons for ground-attack duties​*


The UK has stepped up its commitment to the NATO-led campaign to contain Libya's armed forces by adding four Panavia Tornado GR4s to its contribution and placing an equal number of Eurofighter Typhoons at readiness to conduct offensive action.

Prime Minister David Cameron announced the decision to send the four additional Tornado ground-attack aircraft during a 5 April visit to Royal Air Force personnel forward-deployed at Gioia del Colle air base in Italy. Eight GR4s are already at the site and have been used to conduct multiple strikes during action to protect Libyan civilians from attack by forces loyal to Col Muammar Gaddafi.

Recent targets for their MBDA dual-mode Brimstone air-to-surface missiles and Raytheon Systems Paveway IV precision-guided bombs included six armoured fighting vehicles and six main battle tanks that had been positioned near the towns of Misrata and Sirte, the UK Ministry of Defence says.






© Crown Copyright
The UK already has Typhoon and Tornado GR4 aircraft in place in Italy

Separately, the MoD announced on 5 April that some of its eight Gioia del Colle-based Typhoons have for the first time been made available to conduct strikes against land-based targets in Libya.

"In agreement with NATO, the UK has today agreed to move four RAF Typhoons from an air defence role, policing the no-fly zone, to a ground attack role," it says. "As a result, the total number of UK fast jets deployed in southern Italy, including those under UK command on standby to support operations, currently stands at 20."

Operations with the UK's deployed Typhoons have until now been limited to supporting the enforcement of the UN-mandated no-fly zone over Libya. *Approval for some of the aircraft to perform air-to-surface missions could lead to them using their Raytheon Paveway II/Enhanced Paveway II precision-guided bombs in anger for the first time.
*









LIBYA: UK commits Eurofighter Typhoons for ground-attack duties









BATMAN said:


> Is it a rally race.. every cycle a different lead.
> 
> What grounds does news have for their leak?
> 
> India needs nuclear technology hence we can narrow to France or US but US can help in weapon making as well.
> 
> So chances of hornet are more than any other, flying machine.
> 
> News is just propaganda... perhaps could help in negotiating price!


 
Nobody asked for your silly comment .


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## Skull and Bones

Now lets see how good Eurofighter can be in ground-attack duties, looks like they are hell bent on proving their birds to us. Or why would they employ EFT for that role when they had dedicated ground attack aircraft Tornado at their disposal.


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## kingdurgaking

Skull and Bones said:


> Now lets see how good Eurofighter can be in ground-attack duties, looks like they are hell bent on proving their birds to us. Or why would they employ EFT for that role when they had dedicated ground attack aircraft Tornado at their disposal.


 
There was a report which states that strike aircraft where not enough after US with drew.... so i guess this is a new twist in LIBYA drama...


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## SpArK

MMRCA vendors to resubmit offset plans by next week | StratPost


*yawn*


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## SpArK

*US fuel stops Gripen Libya mission*







The Swedish JAS Gripen aircraft deployed in Sicily as part of NATO's Libya mission remained grounded on Thursday as the fuel available is suitable only for US navy aircraft.

The eight fighter jets are located in the US part of the Sigonella airbase on Sicily and the only fuel available it that which is used for US navy aircraft.

The Gripen were due to participate in their first mission over Libya on Thursday but this has now been delayed and test flights have been postponed.

According to the outline plan, the eight aircraft were all due to monitor the UN no-fly zone over the civil-war torn country from Thursday but on arrival at the base they discovered that no fuel was available.

The Sigonella base is designed as a naval air force base, lieutenant colonal Mats Brindsjö, head of the Swedish Air Operation Center, said.

"*And US navy aircraft use somewhat different fuel to that which we use in our planes,"* he told the TT news agency.

The US fuel variety is known as JP5 while the Gripen normally fly using a civil fuel known as Jet A1.

"Certain additives and some equipment are needed to change JP5 to Jet A1 in a controlled manner. This equipment is not as yet in place down there and in the time being we are trying to buy the fuel from a place off the base."

"This really should have been investigated as soon as we arrived, but we didn't have time with all the other details," Mats Brindsjö said, adding that he expects the Gripen aircraft to be in the air on Friday.

The Swedish aircraft will undergo a test flight in order to familiarize themselves with the airspace before NATO authorities are informed that the Gripen stand at the ready.

Sweden is not a member of NATO, although it has been in NATO's
Partnership for Peace programme since 1994 and has contributed some 500 troops to the alliance's International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) force in
Afghanistan.

Sweden also took part in operations in Kosovo.

Nevertheless Sweden's air force has not been involved in action since it
took part in a UN-mandated operation in the then Belgian Congo from 1961-63.

The Libyan operation will be the first combat tour for the JAS Gripen 39,
produced by the Swedish defence group Saab.

Sweden's Nordic neighbours Denmark and Norway are already taking part in
Libyan air operations.

US fuel stops Gripen Libya mission - The Local

WTF is that???

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## rockstarIN

^^ blinking for Americans?


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## sancho

kingdurgaking said:


> There was a report which states that strike aircraft where not enough after US with drew.... so i guess this is a new twist in LIBYA drama...


 
That's the point, UK now are forced to deploy more fighters in the A2G role, but as I said earlier, this is also their chance to show off the EF in this role, because if Afghanistan didn't showed it already, this conflict made anybody understand how much the Rafale is in lead in terms of multi role capabilities and beeing proven.




SpArK said:


> The US fuel variety is known as JP5 while the Gripen normally fly using a civil fuel known as Jet A1.


 

Interesting and kind of embarrassing for the Swedish forces, I would guess that the Volvo engine is cleared for the civil fuel only to reduce the costs.


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## SpArK

sancho said:


> That's the point, UK now are forced to deploy more fighters in the A2G role, but as I said earlier, this is also their chance to show off the EF in this role, because if Afghanistan didn't showed it already, this conflict made anybody understand how much the Rafale is in lead in terms of multi role capabilities and beeing proven.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting and kind of embarrassing for the Swedish forces, I would guess that the Volvo engine is cleared for the civil fuel only to reduce the costs.


 
Can you give a description and info about various aviation fuels used in jet fighters around the world, would be much appreciated.


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## angeldemon_007

@SpArK 
Wasn't it few days back, when MOD said that new offset policy will not be applied to MMRCA ?? Also there were reports last year that offset issue was solved...

If i am correct MOD might also be expecting revised proposal, i mean not offset but the package as the offers have expired April last year...i don't understand how they were going to make the decision in the first place...?

I think its now time that we should stop talking about MMRCA.... it will take a couple of more years to take the decision and then government might change and everyone knows what happens when government changes....


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## SR 71 Blackbird

SpArK said:


> Can you give a description and info about various aviation fuels used in jet fighters around the world, would be much appreciated.



ALL USAF jet aircraft use JP-8 expect the retired Blackbird which uses JP-7 to achieve Mach 3.As for other air forces there might be some difference in flash points & additives.


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## SpArK

angeldemon_007 said:


> @SpArK
> Wasn't it few days back, when MOD said that new offset policy will not be applied to MMRCA ?? Also there were reports last year that offset issue was solved...
> 
> If i am correct MOD might also be expecting revised proposal, i mean not offset but the package as the offers have expired April last year...i don't understand how they were going to make the decision in the first place...?
> 
> I think its now time that we should stop talking about MMRCA.... it will take a couple of more years to take the decision and then government might change and everyone knows what happens when government changes....


 
Yup and no upgraded offers too like engines .. coz the evaluation was based on the old config.

10 years to come was a shocker. In 10 years all these fighters will be irrelevant. 

I am looking for a sweetener of a surprise like transferring of a few existing fighters from the winning manufacture to fill up the shortage, until the real ones start coming.


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## deepakclaw

Rafael Derby BVRAAMs on Indian Air Force HAL Tejas Light Combat Aircraft by 2012-enD
The Indian Air Force (IAF) plans to equip the Tejas light combat aircraft (LCA) with the Rafael's supersonic Derby beyond visual range air-to-air missile (BVR-AAM). India will sign a contract with Rafael Advanced Defence Systems (RADSL) to procure the Derby BVR-AAM to be fitted on 200 jets.

Delivery of the missiles is expected by the end of 2012. The IAF has selected the Derby BVR-AAM over the indigenous Astra BVR-AAM to expedite the induction of Tejas into its arsenal. The Derby BVR-AAM missile is a tried and tested weapon, though it is yet to be successfully test-fired in the air using a Sukhoi-30 MKI fighter jet. The Derby has a range of 50km, compared with 80km of the Astra missile.

Tejas developer Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) said the Astra BVR-AAM would be integrated with the LCA once all the flight test firing schedules were successfully completed.


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## angeldemon_007

*India inches closer to major aircraft deal (funny but might be true)*

NEW DELHI, April 7 (UPI) -- India's air force won't accept any last-minute offers from bidders in a 126 medium-multi-role combat aircraft deal expected to be worth around $11 billion.

"No offers for upgrades or changes in the original bid submitted by the six aircraft companies would be allowed as their aircraft have been judged on the basis of capabilities offered in the original bid and their performance in the field trials," an unnamed air force source told Indian media.

The comment came after one bidder -- not named - suggested it could supply a more powerful engine.

Planes in the running are the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet from Boeing, the Rafale by French firm Dassault, the Eurofighter Typhoon from Europe's EADS, Lockheed Martin's F-16, the Russian-made MiG-35 and the Gripen from Swedish firm Saab.

But the final report on the planes and each bidder's value-for-money tender has been submitted to the Indian Defense Ministry for evaluation, with a final contract likely signed by July.

Many of India's nearly 800 fighters are aging Soviet-era and Russian aircraft, including the Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21, MiG-27 and MiG-29 and some Sukhoi Su-30MKI planes. The air force also has Anglo-French SEPECAT Jaguar and French Mirage 2000 aircraft produced under license.

The MRCA deal is imperative for the air force because of the age of its largest aircraft by numbers, the MIG-21, a 1970s fighter.

The long-awaited aircraft deal -- the tender was issued in August 2007 -- will be one of India's largest capital military expenditures likely in next several years.

The purchase is reflected in the country's boosted defense budget, announced last month. India raised its defense budget by more than 11 percent in the face of China's growing military might.

The increase to $36.5 billion for 2011-12, from $32.74 billion this year, includes a 12 percent boost in capital spending for equipment and services.

From next month, capital spending will rise from $13.33 billion this year to nearly $15.4 billion, Indian Finance Minister Pranab Mukherjee said in his presentation of the budget to the country's Parliament.

"More than 40 percent of the Indian defense budget for 2011 will be spent on capital expenditure, while the rest will go toward maintaining its armed forces," he said.

India also will buy nearly 200 light helicopters and 145 ultra-light howitzers for the army.

The "substantial" increase in the budget will go a long way to paying for these, Defense Minister M.M. Pallam Raju said after the budget was presented.

Also last month, Israel's Rafael Advanced Defense Systems said it expected to secure an anti-tank missile order worth $1 billion from the Indian army.

Rafael, which posted a record net profit of $178.6 million in 2010, is also in line to secure arms sales to South Korea worth $500 million a year, The Jerusalem Post reported.

Read more: India inches closer to major aircraft deal - UPI.com


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## angeldemon_007

Eurofighter back in Danish jet competition - UPI.com


----------



## SBD-3

IAF to Extend Combat Aircraft Bid Window 
06 April 2011
The Indian Air Force (IAF) is planning, for the second time, to extend the commercial bid validity of the six contenders for the medium multirole combat aircraft (MMRCA) deal, according to industry sources.

"The government is seeking a extension of the validity of the commercial bid expiring on 30 April as none of the vendors have received any indication from the Ministry of Defence (MoD) about being down listed, nor has the price negotiation committee been set up," the source added.

The extension could cost the government $1bn more than the $10.4bn originally planned for 126 planes.

The new MMRCA aircraft will be the mainstay of IAF fighter aircraft fleet for the next 40 years and will replace its existing fleet of MiG variants.
IAF to Extend Combat Aircraft Bid Window - Air Force Technology


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## SpArK

*First JAS Gripen sortie under Unified Protector in Libya*


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## dbc

sancho said:


> So what are my choices? On the one hand the rafale newsblog, that clearly has more knowledge of French fighters and weapons than you have, as well as the official press release of *Sagem *(the manufacturer of AASM), stating that the weapon will be produced only 2012 onwards and on the other side I have your eyes.
> 
> I think it's obvious who is more reliable and I would suggest to get some new glasses!





> Par ailleurs, les Rafale ont conduit de très nombreuses missions contre les forces loyalistes à l'aide de leurs bombes *AASM*, qui sont également des bombes lisses, mais guidées cette fois par un *système de désignation laser* et un système d'augmentation de portée conçu par la société française Sagem.



A translation of the above text, laser designated AASM's designed by SAGEM have been used against loyalist forces in Libya.
Looks like I proved you wrong - again! 

Premier bilan des frappes aériennes françaises en Libye - Le Point


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## deepakclaw

Original report from TimesNow:

Even before US President Barack Obama touched down in the country, away from the gaze of the cameras, a script was being written - to make Indian defence subservient to Pentagon. Talk in New Delhi&#8217;s defence circles - about a deal that - if through - would give the Americans unprecedented access to Indian defence forces and the communication systems for three services. Top secret documents that would be declassified only ten years from now - in 2020. Documents that show that the US is trying to force India into an agreement that our defence establishment does not need and does not want. The contention is the communications interoperability agreement. Part of this agreement - are six clauses that if India were to agree to - would be humiliating to say the least and completely under US control.

Article 5 of inter-operability agreement says that it will be the Indian defence ministry that shall bear the cost of reconfiguring the communications systems. More interestingly - India can only buy from the US Department of Defence. The other clause is in Article 6 of the agreement which says that the US Department of Defence shall provide defence support - subject to approval - which means - whenever it wants. Article 7 of this top secret agreement points to an effective takeover of our defence communications - since the clause says that it will be American officials who would be training Indian Govt personnel and also conducting inspections of the equipment given to India. Then clause number four - which is in Article 9 of the agreement - that says it will be only US army personnel who will have the right to access and inspect the equipment and material given to India.

Article 8, then goes on to say - that the Government of India cannot use its own equipment - without the prior consent of the American Government. So without a nod from Capitol Hill - India can&#8217;t touch its own equipment. And the sixth binding cause - which no American equipment provided to India, will be subject to any cooperative development - meaning that India cannot develop further on US prototypes. These are six of the most relevant clauses in this top secret document - that show how America wants to deal with the India- on their terms - wanting to control Indian defence communications. And they have lobbied hard in order to get India to agree but still not been able to convince the defence establishment.

And it was exactly that sentiment - echoed when the Defence Secretary met with the Defence Chiefs. Not just that - even before Obama arrived - the service chiefs have made their displeasure known. It is because of the open and clear displeasure shown by the defence establishment - that the strong American lobbies are having a rethink. New Delhi extremely wary of American moves. After all - similar defence agreements with other world powers - have given India the flexibility to maintain complete control on its defence establishment. So as the US President attempts to hit the right chords, lurking in the shadows are those who are trying to force a deal - that New Delhi simply does not want. 

-- TimesNow.tv


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## sancho

SpArK said:


> Can you give a description and info about various aviation fuels used in jet fighters around the world, would be much appreciated.


 
Sorry mate, I don't know much about the fuels, was never a point that caught my attention. 




SpArK said:


> 10 years to come was a shocker. In 10 years all these fighters will be irrelevant.
> 
> I am looking for a sweetener of a surprise like transferring of a few existing fighters from the winning manufacture to fill up the shortage, until the real ones start coming.



I wasn't that surprised, especially if we look at the licence production of the MKI, that started 2002 and till last year HAL produced 70 to 80 in India. 
The transfer of existing fighters is on offer, but mainly of those vendors, that are delayed in development. Saab and the EF consortium are reportedly offering older versions of their fighters as a stop gap, while only Dassault and the US vendors will be able to produce new fighters, with the capabilities on offer in MMRCA early than initially planed.


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## sancho

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> A translation of the above text, *laser designated AASM's designed by SAGEM* have been used against loyalist forces in Libya.


 

 Is that your own translation?

A simple google translation tells you the truth:



> Moreover, the Rafale has led numerous missions against the loyalist forces using AASM bombs, bombs which are also smooth, but this time *guided by a laser designation system* and *a system designed to increase the reach by the French company Sagem*.



So it's not talking about AASM with a laser seeker, but about a laser designator system, or targeting pod and a system to increase the reach of the AASM (the rocket propulsion kit), designed by Sagem !


And as the Rafale newsblog explained before:



> Apparently at least one Rafale in each flight is loaded with *a damocles pod* whereas the planes are only *armed with AASM bombs which are GPS guided* (see the Rafale C on the left). The best bet is that *the LDP is used to feed the AASM with GPS coordinates* (especially for opportunity targets). *The pod can also be usefull for damage assessment and off course for visual identification of the targets prior to any strike*




Let me make it clear again:

*Rafale with Damocles targeting pod and GPS guided AASM, to feed the GPS coordinates of opportunity targets and damage assessment prior to any strike*











*And Rafale with Damocles targeting pod and laser guided Paveway bombs*











*And here the AASM propulsion kit that was developed by Sagem and that the article is talking about*







The funny thing is, that you really believe Sagem, or the French blogs would not make it official if they would use their latest developments and say that they striked with a laser AASM, although nearly anything is reported today. So far they didn't even used the IR guided AASM, but only the GPS/INS version, but as usual you (think you) know it better. 


P.S. Maybe you can contribute something of value here and sum up the latest news on the F18SH crash? My sympathies for the relatives of the 2 pilots that lost their lives!

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## sancho

*Great pics of the Rafale M*






















Hope IAF and IN will go for them!

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## kish

^^ great pics ,,


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## KEETARP

sancho said:


> Which means Raytheon delivers units for this geo location technology demonstration and the RWR is *one* part of it!
> 
> Just as the official Raytheon site said as well, location and identification, not geolocation!
> 
> Which means, for precision geolocating in this demonstration, it requires additional sensor infos *besides of those of the RWR* and that is exactly what you don't understand. To geolocate means combining the datas of a target, gathered from different sensors in one picture and it's not only these fighters, but AWACS aircrafts that uses the same technologies (RWR, ESM antennas, LWR, IR/UV MAVS) to geolocate threats as well.
> Just like the radar arrays are not the only sensor for detection in latest AWACS, it is also not the only sensor in latest fighters. Rafale started to use these sensors not only in defensive, but also in offensive roles, F16 Block 60 seems to follow in that direction (although the weapon guidance is not shown yet), F35 will have it for sure and Gripen E/F might get it, if it will be produced.
> Against 5th gen fighters, where radar is of less use, these kind of detecting capabilities will be even more important, which is a reason why we should learn from the French and integrate similar techs into FGFA. Against other stealth fighters, the radar of FGFA will less useful too, while a sophisticated EWS with several additional sensors would be a big advantage!



Don't get your point. You raised questions regarding Raytheon not having capability to give Geolocation capability in ALR69A platform , while BAE has done same in Block 60 






When Rafale itself needs additional sensors and antennas apart from RWR for geolocation , so does AN/ALR69-A . 

As the pic above says both *single* ship and multi-ship PG (Precise geolocation) in ALR69A. 
Remember this pic is an year old . 

Don't get your logic saying "RWR is just one part of it " . Dosen't RWR in Rafale needs additional sensors of SPECTRA for precise geolocation .




On to main discussion - With Dassault caught in a scam . Congress gov will always be on backfoot wrt giving contract to Dassault . 
Just to add - Way US is going on offensive against Gripen everywhere - Looks like US sees it as one single biggest threat to its campaign .


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## SpArK

Some great pics of Gripen ( new ones)

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## KEETARP

Thanks for the pics , esp second one .


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## SpArK

^^^ u liked it..

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## SpArK



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## SpArK

RAFALE FLARE


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## SpArK




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## Just Yash

Can we use GE 414 engine for rafale if it win mmrca?


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## angeldemon_007

^^^
why do you want to do that ???


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## Just Yash

angeldemon_007 said:


> ^^^
> why do you want to do that ???


 
because we are going to use it in upcoming LCA in HUGE qty. and main maintence in any aircraft is it's engine........ and Rafale is bit Underpower compair to other aircraft in MMRCA.

sooooo.............


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## angeldemon_007

> because we are going to use it in upcoming LCA in HUGE qty. and main maintence in any aircraft is it's engine........


Yeah but i think we should stick with Snecma as too much dependence on US is not a wise decision and especially in case of engine...good thing is we can later replace it with our own Kaveri. I think if we select Rafale then last jets among the 126 can be fitted with Kaveri....It will also be good for us as future indian jets will be using kaveri, even lca....



> and Rafale is bit Underpower compair to other aircraft in MMRCA.


Man don't just read and make conclusions....
Rafale's Thrust/weight ratio is 1.13
Any fighter jet with T/W ratio more than 1 is good....its fine and with Kaveri it will be much better...(83-95KN each, not sure about exact figure but still...)


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## Just Yash

angeldemon_007 said:


> Yeah but i think we should stick with Snecma as too much dependence on US is not a wise decision and especially in case of engine...good thing is we can later replace it with our own Kaveri. I think if we select Rafale then last jets among the 126 can be fitted with Kaveri....It will also be good for us as future indian jets will be using kaveri, even lca....
> 
> 
> Man don't just read and make conclusions....
> Rafale's Thrust/weight ratio is 1.13
> Any fighter jet with T/W ratio more than 1 is good....its fine and with Kaveri it will be much better...(83-95KN each, not sure about exact figure but still...)


 
Kaveri is not going operational in near future(Minimum 5 to 7 year ), till then Sechma it self come up with high power advance engine. sooooo

And if choose GE-414IN then LCA, MMRCA and MCA can use it. so we required more then 1000 Engine... and we can locally produce it with TOT. And much FASTER


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## angeldemon_007

^^^
Its true and MMRCA will still be under production 5-7 years later....



> And if choose GE-414IN then LCA, MMRCA and MCA can use it. so we required more then 1000 Engine... and we can locally produce it with TOT. And much FASTER


Indigenous engine will be the best option....and a power of 83-95 KN is too much as we will be mostly operating twin engine jets...

Its already decided that when Kaveri will get ready (5-7 years) all our future jets will be using it...LCA, AMCA etc...its not my opinion, the decision is already made by IAF, ADA, MOD...there's nothing you or me can do...this decision can change only if DRDO screw up....



> and we can locally produce it with TOT. And much FASTER


You think US will give us ToT of an engine, then you are dreaming...


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## sancho

PRATEEK said:


> Dosen't RWR in Rafale needs additional sensors of SPECTRA for precise geolocation .
> 
> On to main discussion - With Dassault caught in a scam . Congress gov will always be on backfoot wrt giving contract to Dassault .
> Just to add - Way US is going on offensive against Gripen everywhere - Looks like US sees it as one single biggest threat to its campaign .


 
Exactly, the interferometry antennas we talked about from the begining and where do you see Dassault in a scam? The IAF officer that asked for money is, while Dassault actually did everything right, the only problem is that IAF now is embarrassed and that's why they want to get out the Indian official of Dassault. 




Just Yash said:


> Can we use GE 414 engine for rafale if it win mmrca?


 
If the question is, does the GE 414 fit into Rafale? Yes, because the early Rafale prototypes used GE 404 engines till the M88 was ready.
But can we use it for Rafale? No, it requires integration and neither Dassault, nor the US would allow it. 



Just Yash said:


> because we are going to use it in upcoming LCA in HUGE qty. and main maintence in any aircraft is it's engine........ and Rafale is bit Underpower compair to other aircraft in MMRCA.



GE 414 is only a stop gap for LCA, in the long run Kaveri - Snecma engine is planed for integration and the MK1s gets this engine during the MLU. Commonality and ease of maintenance is very logical, but not really a reason for IAF as it seems, just look at the current fleet ( 7 different fighters with 7 different engines and radars) and look at the Jaguar upgrade engine decision, where IAF favoured the US engine, instead of the British that offered up to 90% commonality to Hawk trainer engines. 
However, the best chance for commonality would still be the Kaveri - Snecma engine, which is said to be ready in 3 to 4 years and can be integrated in follow LCAs, Rafale and if needed AMCA in future as well. 

Rafale is not underpowered, because you have to look at the emptyweight in relation to the dry thrust and the Rafale looks pretty good in this field as the 2nd lightest fighter in the competition, but I would prefer the integration of Kaveri - Snecma engine for a higher indigenous content and more independence, instead of having more thrust.


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## angeldemon_007

> The IAF officer that asked for money is, while Dassault actually did everything right, the only problem is that IAF now is embarrassed and that's why they want to get out the Indian official of Dassault.


I think IAF's choice is Rafale and thats why they are trying to make sure that when they select it, no one can challenge it...Dassault has removed that official and IAF has court-marshaled that IAF official...IAF is also making sure that no more delays take place like IA's deals like light helicopter and Artillery...



> However, the best chance for commonality would still be the Kaveri - Snecma engine, which is said to be ready in 3 to 4 years


Is there any timeline set for the JV between DRDO-Snecma ??/ because any delay in that will delay the project...


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## dbc

sancho said:


> Is that your own translation?
> 
> A simple google translation tells you the truth:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Moreover, the Rafale has led numerous missions against the loyalist forces using AASM bombs, bombs which are also smooth, but this time guided by a laser designation system *and* a system designed to increase the reach by the French company Sagem."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So it's not talking about AASM with a laser seeker, but about a laser designator system, or targeting pod and a system to increase the reach of the AASM (the rocket propulsion kit), designed by Sagem !
Click to expand...

 
You clearly lack the ability to comprehend simple English, the word "AND" highlighted is a conjunction. I'm sure there are software programers here on this forum who will understand the implications of using the Boolean operator 'AND' while coding. So when I say "Sancho and Spark love the Rafale" it means both you and Spark love Rafale. The text you google translated from French to English means both the laser designator and propulsion kit were used to target loyalist forces and assets.

The original French article is clear it says "*guided by laser designation *system" 

GPS / INS AASM's does not need guidance, post launch the aircraft can turn away from the target and the AASM is able to independently navigate towards the target. "Guided by laser" obviously means the AASM was 'laser spot tracking'. 




> A laser designator is a laser light source which is used to designate a target. Laser designators provide targeting for laser guided bombs, missiles, or precision artillery munitions, such as the Paveway series of bombs, Lockheed-Martin's Hellfire, or the Copperhead round, respectively.
> 
> When a target is marked by a designator, the beam is invisible and does not shine continuously. Instead, a series of coded pulses of laser-light are fired. These signals bounce off the target into the sky, where they are detected by the seeker on the laser guided munition, which steers itself towards the centre of the reflected signal. Unless the people being targeted possess laser detection equipment or can hear aircraft overhead, it is extremely difficult for them to tell whether they are being marked or not. Laser designators work best in clear atmospheric conditions. Cloud cover, rain or smoke can make reliable designation of targets difficult or even impossible.


Laser designator - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Laser designation is very different from 'geo-pointing', geo-pointing is the use of laser to obtain the GPS co-ordinates of a laser spot. 

Clearly, laser designation is the act of *marking *a target for laser guided munitions this is very different from using laser to acquire the GPS coordinates of a target (geo-pointing).

Geo-pointing is not a 100% reliable there is always an error in the acquired target GPS coordinates, the accuracy of geo pointing depends on the resolution of the LOS device, aiming accuracy, the accuracy of INS/GPS coordinates, orientation and altitude(shallow angle error) of the aircraft. The accuracy of such systems are also significantly impacted by weather. I doubt a 150,000 Euro () AASM will be launched from 50 kms using target coordinates obtained from geo-pointing.


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## SpArK




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## Abingdonboy

^^^ The IAF has no plans for the near to immediate future to induct female pilots into the AF so is this relevant to the INDIAN MMRCA?


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## SpArK

Abingdonboy said:


> ^^^ The IAF has no plans for the near to immediate future to induct female pilots into the AF so is this relevant to the INDIAN MMRCA?


 
well .. what do you think...??? All the news posted here are of relevance.. The video above is more about Gripen and G-force testing..

I have posted a gripen pic earlier with a babe in bikini.. i didnt see you posting IAF has no immediate plan to put a babe in bikini near MRCA winner..





Just kidding.


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## SpArK

The South African Air Force


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## GORKHALI



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## GORKHALI



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## sancho

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> The text you google translated from French to English means both the laser designator and propulsion kit were used to target loyalist forces and assets...
> 
> ..."Guided by laser" obviously means the AASM was 'laser spot tracking'.



Wrong, because it don't say guided by laser, but guided by a laser designation *system* = LDP! And what did you said about geo-pointing?



Death.By.Chocolate said:


> ...geo-pointing is the use of laser *to obtain the GPS co-ordinates of a laser spot*.



Now compare your own words, with what the Rafale newsblog said ( which I show you for the 3rd time):



> the LDP is used to feed the AASM with GPS coordinates (especially for opportunity targets).



You even confirm what they said and still refuese the obvious with your speculations and wrong claims! 
For the last time, the article says nothing about a laser AASM like you first claimed, neither that the AASM was guided by a laser, but that they used an LDP and a propulsion kit for the strike!


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## sancho

*A2A config comparisons of MMRCA (or IAF) related fighters over Libya:*


UAE airfoce Mirage 2000-5 and F16 Block 60 - each with 2 x SR and 4 x MR missiles













Swedish airforce Gripen C/D - with 2 x SR and 2 x MR missiles 








French airforce Rafale F3 - with 2 x SR and 4 x MR missiles 








Royal airforce Eurofighter T2 - with 4 x SR and 4 x MR missiles 







Spanish airforce F18 Hornet - with 2 x SR and 2 x MR missiles 







Note, the UAE fighter pics were taken when they arrived at the bases in Italy, in the air policing roles they will use less fuel tanks. The Rafales are flying from air bases in France and has still 2 wingstations left for missiles, depending on customer requirements (UAE wants to add them).
The Gripen C/D is fully loaded and shows the load difference of light fighters with less weapon stations (which is similar to LCA) and medium class fighters. Gripen E/F that is offered in the MMRCA instead, will be able to carry 2 more missiles on the new centerline stations and has a higher internal fuel load to equal the lack of a fuel tank.
The EF is flying with the highest missile load, but still has 2 wingstations for weapons and the centerline stations for a fuel tank left if needed.

It's also interesting that the F16 and the Gripen carries LDPs, although their governments did not allowed to use them in strike missions. Which hints that they also will search for ground targets and transfer the coordinates to other fighters, or do the damage assessment after strikes.

Edit: The F18 Hornets are also flying with an LDP!

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## SpArK

*Indian Navy officers check out Hornet landing on USS Ron Reagan*

PACIFIC OCEAN (April 8, 2011) Rear Adm. Robert Girrier, commander of Carrier Strike Group (CSG) 7, observes flight operations aboard the aircraft carrier USS Ronald Reagan (CVN 76) with Indian naval officers of the Eastern Fleet. Ronald Reagan is participating in Exercise Malabar, a bi-lateral coordination with the Indian navy and is operating in the western Pacific Ocean. (U.S. Navy photo by Mass Communication Specialist 3rd Class Kevin B. Gray/Released)​


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## Abingdonboy

SpArK said:


> *Indian Navy officers check out Hornet landing on USS Ron Reagan*
> 
> PACIFIC OCEAN (April 8, 2011) Rear Adm. Robert Girrier, commander of Carrier Strike Group (CSG) 7, observes flight operations aboard the aircraft carrier USS Ronald Reagan (CVN 76) with Indian naval officers of the Eastern Fleet. Ronald Reagan is participating in Exercise Malabar, a bi-lateral coordination with the Indian navy and is operating in the western Pacific Ocean. (U.S. Navy photo by Mass Communication Specialist 3rd Class Kevin B. Gray/Released)​


 
I suppose this will have more of an affect on the N-MMRCA more than the IAF MMRCA. 

It's a good opportunity for IN to keep pace with current/future ACC ops given they are going to a major operator in this field in the not to distant future. Reminds me of an article by " " I read comparing IN and PLA-N future ACC capabilities and it gave India the edge as they already have extensive experience of operating an ACC for nearly 50 yrs and have world class naval fighter training incorporating the latest tech/training from abroad and domestic.


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## PRACTICAL PATRIOT

i m becoming gripen fan day by day

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## SpArK

The MMRCA According To Admiral Arun Prakash


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## SpArK




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## SpArK




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## SpArK

*Australia plans to buy more Super Hornets: report
​*





CANBERRA (BNS): As the much-touted Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) programme gets delayed, Australia may consider buying more F/A-18F Super Hornet fighters for its air force.

Australian defence officials are set to visit the US this week for an update from Lockheed Martin, the manufacturer of the JSF F-35 Lightening II, about the delivery schedule of the jets, The Australian reported Monday.

The country plans to buy up to 100 F-35 fighters and has placed an initial order for 14. The Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF) was expected to induct the first batch of F-35 advanced stealth fighters by 2018. 

However, the US Air Force too is buying the same variant of the Joint Strike Fighter as the RAAF and has pushed back the dates by which it expects to have its first squadrons operational from mid-2016 to 2017 -- and possibly now to mid-2018, the news report said.

Despite assurances from Lockheed that the first 14 fighters will be delivered to it on time, Australian defence officials believe that deployment of the new generation fighters in the RAAF would not happen before 2020 or even later.

As the RAAF's aging classic 'Hornets' would be nearing the end of their life span by that time, to bridge the gap in its air defence, Australia is weighing the option to buy 18 more Super Hornets at a cost of $800 million each, the newspaper said.

The Australian Government had signed a $6 billion deal with the US in 2007 to acquire 24 F/A-18F Super Hornets. All the fighters have been delivered to the country.

Buying additional Super Hornets would make economic sense, because the $6bn purchase price for the first 24 Super Hornets included the infrastructure to support them and that can be used for the additional aircraft, the news report said.


Australia plans to buy more Super Hornets: report - Brahmand.com

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## SpArK

*Press Release - Eurofighter Typhoon successfully adds more air-to-ground capabilities
​*
Monday, 11. April 2011

The Eurofighter&#8217;s air-to-ground capabilities were further improved last week when partner *company Cassidian Spain achieved the first EGBU-16 precision guided munition avionic release.*

This success comes immediately after the* first successful Paveway IV release carried out during February in the UK*. These trials saw both bomb types being successfully released from Eurofighter aircraft and focused on the functional integration into the weapon system.

*The EGBU-16 is the selected dual mode precision guided munition for Germany, Spain and Italy whereas the Paveway IV precision guided bomb is the choice for the UK. Included in the broad-ranging Phase 1 Enhancement (P1E) programme, both weapons improve the all weather precision attack capability on the Typhoon. *


The Typhoon aircraft has been autonomously air-to-ground capable since 2008 when the RAF successfully integrated the Paveway laser guided bombs with the Litening III laser designation pod on to its Typhoon fleet. Demonstrating an unrivalled precision, the combination of weapons has been tested during several exercises both in the UK and abroad, confirming the built-in multi-role capability of the Typhoon.


Eurofighter:  News Detail

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## SpArK

*Latest video of Gripen with heavy load
​*


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## Abingdonboy

The more you read into this the more you see how little chance the MiG-35 has in winning. Maybe back in 2005-6 when the initial RFIs were issued but alot has changed and now its chances are close to 0%. I mean its not enough that the Indian armed forces have had problems in the past of spares and maintenance but then there is news that the IN's MiG-29k, the version the Mig-35 is based, has trouble with spares?? I mean just what are the Russians thinking they can treat such essential customers like this? I'm sure this news rung quite loudly in the ears of the IAF's MMRCA selection team and those in the MoD attached to this deal. It could be argued this may have worked in the past when India had no alternatives but now it does and in this case (MMRCA) there are 5 other very capable contenders. If anyone has lost this bid for the Russians it is themselves- they have thrown away BILLIONS of dollars (which they badly need) in not just this deal but many other future deals.

+ I'm sorry but I just can't see the Gripen being selected purely because it is TOO much trodding on the LCA's toes and would just be a duplication of services. If DRDO + ADRE are to be believed future versions (Mk.2) of thr LCA are to be as good if not better than the Gripen. Even if it's not true it seems the Gripen doesn't fit into the IAF's inventory (filling the gap between the heavy air superiority fighters- FGFA/PAK-FA/MKI ad the light LCA). As the days pass it seems one of the Euro birds is going to take home the gold- and why not the US has already recieved BILLIONS (P-8i, C-130-30j, possibly C-17) so spreading the suppliers is a VERY good idea both geo-politically (buys alot of friends around the world) and strategically (makes India almost sanction proof).


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## SpArK

*Another Saab Released video
*

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## Bang Galore

SpArK said:


> *Australia plans to buy more Super Hornets: report
> ​*
> , Australia is weighing the option to buy 18 more Super Hornets at a cost of* $800 million each*, the newspaper said.
> ]


 
What rubbish ! Must be $800 million for 18 planes.


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## SpArK

Bang Galore said:


> What rubbish ! Must be $800 million for 18 planes.


 
Thats a bundle offer ....


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## SpArK

Livefist: Eurofighter Announces Incremental Strike Capability


Live Fist is slower than me.


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## Bang Galore

Abingdonboy said:


> The more you read into this the more you see how little chance the MiG-35 has in winning. Maybe back in 2005-6 when the initial RFIs were issued but alot has changed and now its chances are close to 0%. I mean its not enough that the Indian armed forces have had problems in the past of spares and maintenance but then there is news that the IN's MiG-29k, the version the Mig-35 is based, has trouble with spares?? I mean just what are the Russians thinking they can treat such essential customers like this? I'm sure this news rung quite loudly in the ears of the IAF's MMRCA selection team and those in the MoD attached to this deal. It could be argued this may have worked in the past when India had no alternatives but now it does and in this case (MMRCA) there are 5 other very capable contenders. If anyone has lost this bid for the Russians it is themselves- they have thrown away BILLIONS of dollars (which they badly need) in not just this deal but many other future deals.
> 
> + I'm sorry but I just can't see the Gripen being selected purely because it is TOO much trodding on the LCA's toes and would just be a duplication of services. If DRDO + ADRE are to be believed future versions (Mk.2) of thr LCA are to be as good if not better than the Gripen. Even if it's not true it seems the Gripen doesn't fit into the IAF's inventory (filling the gap between the heavy air superiority fighters- FGFA/PAK-FA/MKI ad the light LCA). As the days pass it seems one of the Euro birds is going to take home the gold- and why not the US has already recieved BILLIONS (P-8i, C-130-30j, possibly C-17) so spreading the suppliers is a VERY good idea both geo-politically (buys alot of friends around the world) and strategically (makes India almost sanction proof).


 
Mig 35 was out before it even came in. The European planes are good but frightfully expensive; the EF almost double the cost of the SH. The EF might be better than the SH but is it twice as better to pay so much. The Gripen actually is the one plane that fits the original requirement of the MRCA contract which was to replace single engined Mig-21's. The Rafale would cost an arm & a leg considering that no one else is planning on buying it & India (if it buys) would end up funding any & all development of the platform. The EF has received a bit of bad press recently with the Brits slamming it for its lack of A2G capabilities. Would prefer a split order since that would probably lead to faster induction into the IAF & my choice would be the Gripen & the SH unless the EF countries offered a real sweet deal.


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## Markus

Bang Galore said:


> What rubbish ! Must be $800 million for 18 planes.


 
Or may be they meant $80 million per plane.

The printer put an additional zero to 80.


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## Archie

Bang Galore said:


> What rubbish ! Must be $800 million for 18 planes.


 
Naah
That translate into 44 million per aircraft which is too low for Super Hornet
More likely , it is 80 Million USD per Aircraft


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## jha

Archie said:


> Naah
> That translate into 44 million per aircraft which is too low for Super Hornet
> More likely , it is 80 Million USD per Aircraft


 Seems too less..They had bought 24 SH in 6 bill..


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## Archie

jha said:


> Seems too less..They had bought 24 SH in 6 bill..


 
Yeah but that included Cost of setting training and maintenance infrastructure , as well as adequate spares and weapon's package


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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> The more you read into this the more you see how little chance the MiG-35 has in winning. Maybe back in 2005-6 when the initial RFIs were issued but alot has changed and now its chances are close to 0%. I mean its not enough that the Indian armed forces have had problems in the past of spares and maintenance but then there is news that the IN's MiG-29k, the version the Mig-35 is based, has trouble with spares?? I mean just what are the Russians thinking they can treat such essential customers like this?...




I think there are 2 problems, once that Mig (as a company) obviously is not as good in terms of quality and reliability like Sukhoi although they are merged now. 
Secondly the fact that not even Russia will order Mig 35 (and IN is also the biggest customer of Mig 29Ks), makes Mig dependent on fundings from us to survive, or even to develop modifications and techs. We saw the same problem with the production of Zhuk ME radars that run into problems, because they couldn't pay their workers. That makes it so difficult and risky for Indian forces, because there is no future for the fighter and the cost increase for upgrades and maintenace is foreseeable.

Russia has simply not the financial capabilities that they had in the Soviet times, that's why they have to build new structures and modernise their own industry. That's also why they open themself for European arms and techs, instead of develop anything on their own (Mistral class LHD, APCs...). For Mig the MMRCA offer is a desperate attempt to remain an important manfacturer, instead of just beeing a minor part of the new merged company (UAC United Aircraft Corporation).


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## sudhir007

Livefist: Eurofighter Announces Incremental Strike Capability

PRESS STATEMENT: "Eurofighter successfully added more air-to-ground capabilites last week when partner company Cassidian Spain achieved the first EGBU-16 precision guided munition avionic release. This accomplishment comes immediately after the first Paveway IV release carried out during February in the UK. Both reinforce the un-matched growth potential of the Eurofighter Typhoon and confirm the built-in multi-role capability of the aircraft."


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## SpArK

*M-MRCA Competition: The Final Faceoff
​*Prasun K. Sengupta <----








The Indian Air Force (IAF) earlier this month completed Phase 6 of the eight-phase process of acquiring some 220 medium multi-role combat aircraft (M-MRCA) when it submitted its comprehensive technical evaluation report on the six M-MRCA contenders to Indias Ministry of Defence (MoD). All that is now left to be done is completion of the price evaluation reportinclusive of the direct/indirect industrial offsets offers proposed by the manufacturers of all six M-MRCA contendersby a joint team comprising members from the IAF, the MoD and the Union Ministry of Finance, following which the Cabinet Committee on National Security (CCNS) and the Defence Acquisitions Council (DAC) will make the formal selection of the winner by this September. While the initial contract will be for procuring 126 M-MRCAs, there will definitely be a follow-on contract inked by 2016 for procuring an additional 94 M-MRCAs. This would mean that all 220 M-MRCAs will be delivered between the 2013-2024 period, and would remain in service till 2060 at least.

Contrary to popular belief, the IAFs technical evaluations committee (TEC) has not devised any kind of pecking order for the various M-MRCA contenders. Instead, based on the universal practice of impartially analysing the merits and demerits of each offercharacteristic of a competitive bidding process*the TEC has concluded that only two of the six contendersBoeing Defense & Aerospace Groups tandem-seat F/A-18IN Super Hornet and Dassault Aviations tandem-seat Rafale Bcome closest to meeting or exceeding the IAFs operational requirements. These are followed by the single-engined F-16IN from Lockheed Martin, Eurofighter GmbHs EF-2000, and the JAS-39 Gripen IN from Saab Aircraft BV.* The MiG-35 from Russias United Aircraft Corp was never a serious contender as it exists only on paper till this day. So what were the parameters that have tilted the balance in favour of the F/A-18IN and Rafale? And what will be the parameters that will play the decisive roles in favour of the winning bid?--Prasun K. Sengupta 
(to be concluded)



TRISHUL: M-MRCA Competition: The Final Faceoff

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## casual

ima call it now. india is going for F/A-18


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## luckyyy

casual said:


> ima call it now. india is going for F/A-18


 
these reports are mere speculations only ....


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## SpArK

*A careful reading of the RFPs introductory section reveals what exactly the IAF desires from an operational perspective. 
*

1) The M-MRCA on offer has to be a fully functional and mature system, with all its listed capabilities already in operational service and not requiring any further fine-tuning or R & D work.


2) The M-MRCA on offer has to deliver a payload capacity that is much greater than that of the envisaged Tejas Mk2 MRCA, but no more than what the Su-30MKI is already certified to carry.


3) The M-MRCA on offer has to come equipped with an infra-red search-and-track system optimised for air superiority operations, as well as a fully certified active phased-array multi-mode radar (AESA-MMR) capable of waging all-weather and network-centric knowledge-based air-to-air and air-to-surface warfare, and must come armed with standoff precision-guided munitions for both land-attack and maritime strike.


4) The M-MRCA on offer must have sufficient future growth capability to ensure that during its envisaged 40-year service life, it can be subjected to at least two major upgrade programmes aimed at enhancing the aircrafts operational performance parameters.


5) For ensuring total operational sovereignty over the M-MRCA on offer, the aircraft must be accompanied by a through-life product support package that includes the establishment of all four levels of maintenance within India through the creation of a dedicated IAF base repair depot, plus through private sector/public sector product support joint ventures in which the original equipment manufacturer (OEM) of foreign origin (for the airframe, avionics, instrumentation, engine and accessories) and its Indian counterpart will be the principal business stakeholders, this being in consonance with the MoDs direct industrial offsets guidelines (amounting to 50% of the total contract value) that are laid down by the MoDs Defence Procurement Policy.


6) The M-MRCA on offer must be accompanied by the availability and delivery of fully certified training aids that should include the following:

A) Full-flight (or full-motion) simulator (FFS), which recreates sounds, motion, visual scenes, instrument presentations and all other systems in order to create a realistic flight training environment. The pilot will be able to train for landing, takeoff, weapons delivery, night flight, formation flight and cockpit familiarisation in normal, adverse and emergency situations. The handling characteristics of the FFS represent actual aircraft characteristics based on available flight data and input from experienced pilots.
B) Flight training device (FTD), which can be used to off-load some of the training tasks from the FFS. The FTD is a fixed-base trainer that typically does not include a visual system, but uses the same flight management and control systems as a FFS, making it the ideal for instrument familiarisation and other standard flight operations.
C) Cockpit procedures trainer (CPT), which assists pilots in learning the layout of the cockpit, the location of switches, lights, circuit breakers, instruments, and other functions. The CPT increases efficiency in the FFS and the actual aircraft by having the aircrew already familiarised with their surroundings.
D) Part-task trainer (PTT), which is a training device that is designed to train a member of the aircrew or maintenance staff on a particular task associated with the aircraft. PTTs exist for a range of tasks including: avionics systems, systems familiarisation, weapons delivery, aerial refuelling, and a variety of complex tasks specific to a particular aircraft.
E) Integrated procedures trainer (IPT), which can be used for mission rehearsals or to teach and practice any in-flight or on-ground procedures in a crew cockpit environment. It is a high-fidelity, low-cost training solution based on the same software used on the FFS. The IPT uses touch-screen monitors to display the cockpit and captures pilot inputs. The pilots can thus maintain their qualification on certain tasks without having to fly the FFS or the real aircraft. In addition to procedures training, especially for cockpit emergencies, the addition of a visual and tactical environment can give pilots the ability to practice the mission before operational deployment using the mission rehearsal station. This unit can be set-up and dismantled in one or two hours and handled and transported easily without the use of special tools or equipment. 
F) Computer-based training tools required for all four levels of maintenance. 


7) Lastly, the M-MRCA on offer has to be deliveredthrough both off-the-shelf purchases as well as through in-country licenced-assemblyat a rate of no less than 20 aircraft per annum so that the IAFs objective of fielding 42 combat squadrons is realised by 2022.

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## kingdurgaking

^^^^^ if the above thing is real then American birds have the edge.. to some extent Dassault too comes into the vicious circle


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## sancho

SpArK said:


> *A careful reading of the RFPs introductory section reveals what exactly the IAF desires from an operational perspective.
> *
> 
> 1) The M-MRCA on offer has to be a fully functional and mature system, *with all its listed capabilities already in operational service and not requiring any further fine-tuning or R & D work.*



If this would be true, all MMRCAs would not fullfil this point, because they has some capabilities under development, or offered as options. Mig 35 and Gripen E/F are even available on paper only and has much R&D work left, just like the EF, that still did not fixed the T3 yet.


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## sancho

> *UK uses Typhoon jet in attack role for first time*
> 
> 
> * *Eurofighter Typhoon attack debut may boost sales
> 
> * Typhoon competes with Dassault's Rafale for buyers*
> 
> By Mohammed Abbas
> 
> LONDON, Apr 13 (Reuters) - Britain used the Eurofighter Typhoon fighter jet in active combat for the first time, a senior military official said on Wednesday.
> 
> British Air Vice-Marshal Phil Osborn said the aircraft had been used on Tuesday to bomb targets over Libya, where NATO forces are attacking military assets belonging to Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi, and enforcing a no-fly zone and arms embargo.
> 
> "It's the first time that Typhoon has deployed weapons in the air-to-ground role. As far as I can recall, it's the first time it's deployed weapons operationally," Osborn said of the aircraft's bombing raid on Tuesday.
> 
> *A defence ministry official later confirmed that Tuesday's operation was the first time the Typhoon had fired live weapons during combat operations.* The aircraft is built by Britain's BAE Systems, Italy's Finmeccanica and European aerospace group EADS .
> 
> Conflicts typically serve as an arms market shop window, and the NATO mission in Libya has coincided with a surge in global demand for fighter jets and the arrival of a new generation of equipment.
> 
> In Libya, the Typhoon is up against France's Rafale warplane, built by Dassault Aviation, for buyer attention. The Rafale has conducted several strikes against Gaddafi loyalists in recent weeks.
> 
> *On the first day of Western bombing raids over Libya in late March, Rafale jets helped destroy a column of Gaddafi's tanks, armoured personnel carriers and artillery, leaving a trail of burning wreckage outside the rebel-held city of Benghazi. There appeared to be no craters left by misses.*
> 
> *Osborn said the Typhoon's air-to-ground missile attack capability had been activated several years earlier than planned*, but denied media reports that pilots had not been sufficiently trained yet to conduct bombing raids.
> 
> "The RAF (Royal Air Force) have sufficient Typhoon aircrew to undertake the current task, with appropriate training for all the systems and weapons carried by the aircraft, whether air-to-air or air-to-ground munitions," he said.
> 
> The aircraft had previously only been enforcing the no-fly zone over Libya, and not bombing ground targets.
> 
> Design and construction of the Typhoon has been plagued by cost inflation and delays, and last month, Britain's National Audit Office said project costs had risen 20 percent despite the defence ministry buying 30 percent fewer jets than planned.
> 
> That raised the cost of each aircraft purchased by 75 percent, the body said.



UK uses Typhoon jet in attack role for first time | News by Country | Reuters


A note from an Italian blog on the same topic:



> Other interesting things, informations and thoughts:
> 
> 1) Chief of the air staff Air Chief Marshal Sir Stephen Dalton, during the Royal Aeronautical Societys Aerospace 2011 conference in London revealed that two RAF Typhoons, each dorpped one *Paveway II 454kg (1,000lb) bomb against loyalist ground vehicles* that were successfully and accurately destroyed.



Most of the strikes over Libya were done with 250Kg Paveway LGB, or AASM PGMs, but the EF so far has tested these versions only and have no other choice, than useing this heavier bombs even against smaller targets.
For comparison, the RAF Tornados are using 250Kg Paveway IV LGB and Brimstone missiles to engage tanks, or other vehicles.


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## SpArK

*Gripen:Fast on-site​*






LIBYA From decision to action, it only took 23 hours to be the first JAS 39 Gripen aircraft landed at Sigonellabasen. Pilots were told where they would land only after the lifting of Sweden. Therefore, it is impossible to know what was in place since the reconnaissance force did not have time to answer all the questions - because the reconnaissance were held in parallel with the unit began setting up.



> Fuel
> Kerosene 75
> Normally fuel for the Gripen. A variant of Jet A1.
> 
> Jet A1
> The most common fuel in the world of jet aircraft. Approved for use on the Gripen.
> 
> JP-5
> Within NATO, called the F-40. Fuels including U.S. Navy uses. It has a higher flash point for the safety of operations on aircraft carriers.
> 
> JP-8
> Within NATO, called the F-34. Similar Kerosene 75, but with anti-istillsats, which is not needed in the Gripen.




Personnel and equipment are in place. It took a little over a week to build up the grouping of the spaces allocated to the Swedes on Sigonellabasen. The introduction has been dogged by some challenges förbandschefen call it. Among other fuel issue, but the unit works on the motto, "we'll fix it!"

- The staff is amazing, there is nothing that is impossible and all work for one thing - the delivery of required capabilities, "said Stephen Wilson.

Looking forward with optimism

Currently, work is in full swing with several different solutions to solve long-term fuel question. The driving agent that can be found at Sigonellabasen commonly kerosene, but lacks the additive which Jas 39 Gripen need. The major difference between the different fuel types is the flash point. JP-5, available at Sigonellabasen and used by the U.S. Navy has a higher flash point for safety reasons because they are based on aircraft carriers. JAS 39 Gripen uses the normal Kerosene 75, which is the most common working fluid for civil jet aircraft.

- We will add their own trucks and we also have staff on site will mix the additive in the fuel needed for the Gripen, "he says.

Until the tank cars are used in place of the fuel in the Swedish tanker aircraft, KC-130th






He keeps telling the challenges, which he chooses to call it, often comes just when everything looks the best. Two JAS 39 Gripen aircraft had just refueled air from the Swedish KC-130 tanker when it suddenly hit by a broken gearbox in one of the four engines. Frictions are part of the military everyday and we solve them once they occur.

- Tanker landed with three engines, that in itself did not create any more drama, "Mr Wilson continues. 
- In addition, there was a bird strike on the tanker aircraft's right flap when it would land. This in itself is not unusual.

Already the next day landed repair equipment to the aircraft on Sigonellabasen and flight engineers began work to restore the aircraft. The work flowed in and it went better than expected. The aircraft engine could be run after only two days and is now ready for the next mission.

- Now we leave the initial phase, with the establishment of the Sigonella base and look forward to our Swedish contribution to Operation Unified Protector, concludes Stefan Wilson.




Snabbt på plats - Försvarsmakten


Sory for the bloody translation.


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## SpArK

*JAS 39C RECCE and LITENING Pods*​

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## SpArK

*Please dont watch this video.*


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## luckyyy

SpArK said:


> *A careful reading *of the RFPs introductory section reveals what exactly the IAF desires from an operational perspective.
> 
> 
> .


 
careful reading of the RFPs ...it's non other then MIG-35.....


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## razgriz19

SpArK said:


> *Please dont watch this video.*


 
I DIDN'T!!!

---------- Post added at 11:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:07 PM ----------

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## razgriz19

oh yeah one more thing when is indian MoD gonna finalize the aircraft??


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## SpArK

*Watchdog slams delays, high costs of Typhoon jet​*





LONDON | Fri Apr 15, 2011 1:36am BST

(Reuters) - A parliamentary watchdog Friday criticised delays and *cost inflation in the production *of the new Typhoon fighter jet, prompting the defence ministry to defend the project.

The Eurofighter Typhoon is built by Britain's BAE Systems, Italy's Finmeccanica and European aerospace group EADS, and this week conducted its first combat operation, enforcing a United Nations resolution in Libya.

In a scathing report, the parliament's Committee of Public Accounts, which scrutinises the way government departments spend money but has no regulatory powers, said the Typhoon project was mismanaged, pushing up costs.

"The history of the Typhoon fighter aircraft represents yet another example of over-optimism, bad planning and an unacceptably high bill for the taxpayer," said committee chair Margaret Hodge in a statement.

"The (defence ministry) is now buying 30 percent fewer *Typhoon fighter aircraft than originally planned, the cost of the project is now expected to be 3.5 billion pounds more than was originally approved ... the cost of each aircraft has increased by 75 per cent," she added.
*
The watchdog said the overall project cost had risen to 20.2 billion pounds and that the *cost of each plane had risen to 126 million pounds each.* The body also said it had taken too long to bring the jet -- conceived in the 1980s -- into service.

Britain is buying 160 of the aircraft, and the accounts committee suggested that support costs for the plane could be higher than originally budgeted.

Global demand for a new generation of fighter jets has surged, and the arms market is likely to be watching the Typhoon's performance in Libya closely, weighing up its advantages against its purchase and running costs.

The defence ministry defended the Typhoon project, and said problems in its production were being resolved.

"The Typhoon is a world beating air-to-air fighter and is fast developing a ground attack capability as is being demonstrated in Libya," Defence Secretary Liam Fox said in a statement.

"I am determined that in the future such projects are properly run from the outset, and I have announced reforms to reduce equipment delays and cost overruns," he added.

Government departments have been under pressure in recent months to slash spending to reduce a national budget deficit, and the defence ministry in particular has been strongly criticised for over-spending in previous years.
Watchdog slams delays, high costs of Typhoon jet | Reuters



*Euro$$Fighter Anyone?*

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## SpArK

RAF training cuts leave Typhoons idle - Telegraph


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## sancho

Not a good day for the EF, especially not from the British media as it seems:



> *RAF Typhoon jets 'grounded owing to spares shortages*
> 
> The RAF's most advanced fighter jets have been grounded owing to shortages of spare parts, MPs have found.
> 
> The Commons public accounts committee said five Typhoon pilots were grounded last year because they had been unable to put in enough training flight hours.
> 
> The jets have been used in Libya, and were deployed for the first time in a ground attack this week near Misrata.
> 
> The Ministry of Defence insists the problems identified by the committee have since been addressed.
> 
> Although Typhoons - which are made by BAE systems in Warton, Lancashire - have already been carrying out air defence missions, they have only recently been equipped for a ground attack role and were deployed in a bombing mission for the first time this week in Libya.
> 
> In their report, the MPs warned that only eight of the RAF's 48 Typhoon pilots were qualified to carry out ground attacks last year.
> 
> But Air Vice Marshal Phil Osborn said that there were now "sufficient Typhoon aircraft and pilots to undertake the task in Libya".
> 
> *The RAF was undertaking its mission in a "proportionate, disciplined, reliable way," he added.*
> 
> The committee claimed that the RAF was having to cannibalise aircraft for spare parts in order to keep the maximum number of Typhoons in the air on any given day.
> 
> *It added that the Ministry of Defence (MoD) had warned the problems were likely to continue until 2015 when it expects the supply of spares finally to have reached a "steady state"*...
> 
> ...Ground attack
> 
> The overall cost of the programme is now estimated at £20.2bn, *with the cost per plane rising from £72m to £126m.*
> 
> The committee complained that the MoD had been unable to offer a "coherent explanation" for a decision in 2004 to equip the early Typhoons for ground attack operations at a cost of £119m, only to switch them back to an air defence role in 2009, a year after the upgrade was finally ready.
> 
> *"The history of the Typhoon fighter aircraft represents yet another example of over-optimism, bad planning and an unacceptably high bill for the taxpayer," committee chair and Labour MP Margaret Hodge argued.*
> 
> "This pattern of decision-making is more about balancing the books in the short-term *rather than ensuring value for money over time*."
> 
> Defence Secretary Liam Fox said the committee had recognised that the Ministry of Defence and the aerospace industry had been working to "resolve spares issues"...



BBC News - RAF Typhoon jets &#039;grounded owing to spares shortages&#039;


From IAF point of view this must mean, that even they can be effected with spare issues, when they will receive the first squad of fighters in 2014. Also, if they needed so long to correct the issues on the older versions, what about the spares of the techs that might be newly developed for our version (swashplate AESA, TVC...)? 
When even the British say it's too costly and has no value for the money, it should tell us something too isn't it?
No doubt that they offer high ToT and a very interesting partnership, but what's it worth for our forces when the fighter is too expensive, not multi role capable enough and to make it even worse, most likely delayed?


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## sancho

This article is also talking about the first ground attack of the Eurofighter and is not flattering as well:



> *RAF Eurofighters make devastating attack  on Parliament
> *
> Should have called it Operation Guy Fawkes, not Ellamy
> 
> The RAF has blown up two apparently abandoned Libyan tanks using a Eurofighter Typhoon jet in a move which appears to have been motivated more by Whitehall infighting than by any attempt to battle the forces of dictator Muammar Gaddafi.
> 
> The following video was released by the Ministry of Defence (MoD) yesterday afternoon, less than 24 hours after the events shown took place (this is much faster than normal)










> The video appears to *show a T-72 tank neatly parked, stationary and unmanned: the target was plainly not in use*. The Telegraph reports that the location struck was "an abandoned tank park". Many Libyan armoured vehicles are old and not serviceable due to lack of parts and servicing. RAF sources admitted to the paper that the jets making the strike had had to spend "a long time" searching before they could find a valid target to hit, and that the timing of the strike was "no coincidence".
> 
> The video release was accompanied by a briefing to reporters from an RAF air marshal, in which he stated:
> 
> "The RAF has never doubted the efficacy of the Typhoon as a potent ground attack aircraft. Last night, it proved we were right."
> 
> *This hasty effort by the RAF to get Typhoons into ground-attack action took place just ahead of the scheduled release by the Parliamentary Public Accounts Committee of a damning report on the Eurofighter, titled Management of the Typhoon project. This report had been expected to be highly critical of the Typhoon, and indeed it is*...
> 
> ...It thus becomes fairly plain that in order to carry out this week's small-scale attacks, the RAF must have resorted to measures such as pulling weapons instructors out of training units, disrupting the future personnel pipeline and quite possibly delaying the arrival of a proper, sustainable corps of Typhoon pilots capable of all tasks.
> 
> And the service has done all this, seemingly, in order to blow up a couple of abandoned, probably unserviceable 40-year-old tanks... Or, more accurately, *the RAF has done this in an attempt to wrong-foot the MPs of the Public Accounts Committee.*
> 
> 
> ...*It remains a fact that the Eurofighter will only be fully capable as a bomber*  to the point where it is actually better than the aged 1980s-vintage Tornado alongside which it is flying above Libya  *in 2018, once yet more billions have been spent on it*...
> 
> ...And it remains an even more painful fact that just three years later on current plans the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter will arrive with its stealth and modern electronic-warfare capability, rendering the Eurofighter totally obsolete as a bomber and quite probably as a fighter too.
> So the desperate effort we have seen this week to get some weapons off some Eurofighters should not obscure the fact that the RAF's conversion of the plane into a bomber has been and will continue to be an unmitigated, idiotic procurement disaster. It should also not obscure the fact that even without the bomber upgrades the Eurofighter was a horrific train-crash of a project: without bomber upgrades it would still have cost us £20.2bn to obtain our planned fleet of just 107 jets, putting each one at £189m (with bomber conversion this will climb to £215m).
> 
> And people should not allow the RAF's cynical, *pointless bombings to make them forget that more and worse is to come on Eurofighter in the matter of the plane's running and support costs. These are officially acknowledged to be no less than £13bn until 2030*  nearly enough to replace Trident!  and it is quite plain that this figure has been unrealistically lowballed. *In other words we will either pay more, or*  perhaps more likely  *get fewer flying hours and thus in effect even fewer jets*...



RAF Eurofighters make devastating attack ? on Parliament ? The Register


I guess now we now why they suddenly brought up the EF in ground attacks, although their own Tornados are way more capable in that role.
Moreover we once again have a confirmation that the EF lacks far behind other fighters in terms of real multi role capabilities and will remain till 2018!


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## SpArK

EF is now out of the list unless the MoD is that stupid. That leaves with Super bug and Rafale. 

Hornet is heavy according to sources and not to say the US twistings. 

So its just


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## sancho

SpArK said:


> EF is now out of the list unless the MoD is that stupid. That leaves with Super bug and Rafale.


 
Possible, although I like the EF because of it's planed capabilities and potentials, it turned out to be too delayed, too costly and suffers too much from the different interests of the 4 partners and the financial crisis. I would have prefered it 10 years ago, if the choice would have been teaming up with MKI, or EF, but today, with several other options and the MKI inducted anyway, it's simply the wrong way to go.



Besides that, here is something interesting about Rafale and it's sensor fusion:








> *LAAD 2011, Rafale sensor fusion*
> 
> "LAAD  Defence & Security, the most important trade show for the defence and security industry in Latin America  takes place every two years bringing together Brazilian and international companies that specialise in supplying equipment and services to all three major services of the Armed Forces, Police, special forces and security services, as well as consultants and government agencies."
> 
> During the 3rd day of the trade show, last wednesday April 14th, Dassault has presented the Rafale to the press.
> One of the slide of the presentation released by Poder Aereo is explaining how the Rafale sensor fusion works. I think this slide is rather interesting as it might show how the Rafale is operating during BVR combats :
> 
> The first Rafale, using its radar, remains at long range and feeds the second Rafale (mica shooter) through the data link. The mica shooter get much closer (mica range) to the bandits, but *in full passive mode, using the OSF and Spectra* to identify the targets and improve the targeting data. When the missiles have been shot, the shotter brakes away, and let the first Rafale guide its missiles from a safe range.
> 
> This is a very tricky situation for the bandits because :
> 
> 1- The closest rafale shooting the mica is hidding and thus, *is difficult to detect (no EM emissions)* but remains the primary threat until it breaks away.
> 2- The second rafale, is clearly showing itself, radar on, but it remains out of missile range.
> 3- the mica are not coming from the rafale which is guiding them




Rafale News: LAAD 2011, Rafale sensor fusion


In the same regard of Rafales sensor fusion, here an example how they use it in combination with AASM in SEAD operations as well:

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## jha

*Aesa Ready Rafale by 2013, eye on MMRCA tender*






Thales is all set to begin production RBE2 active electronically scanned array (AESA) radars, keeping an eye on Indian MMRCA Tender and also 60 Rafales which have been ordered by French Générale pour l&#8217;Armement (DGA), first AESA-equipped squadron is expected to be operational in 2013.

Preproduction batch of three AESA radars where tested on three different aircrafts, aircrafts used for test flights were Falcon, Mirage-2000 and Rafale. Test flights were carried out in September and December last year and the tranche-four Rafales will be first to get AESA radars.

First round of Radar test were conducted with US-made transmitter/receivers, but Thales have already developed their locally made transmitter/receivers and will be integrated in the serial production variant of the RBE2 active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar.

RBE2 Aesa will enable Rafale to be the first European aircraft to feature a AESA Radar, but EADS is already working on e-scan radar for Euro Fighter aircraft and Saab is also testing its AESA radar for Gripen NG, work on AESA Radar program for this aircrafts have picked up speed since all are eyeing lucrative Indian air forces 126 jet order under MMRCA tender, which makes its mandatory for the aircrafts participating in the tender to have tested AESA Radar.


Aesa Ready Rafale by 2013, eye on MMRCA tender | idrw.org

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## Shastra

*SAAB GRIPEN *


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## rockstarIN

jha said:


> *Aesa Ready Rafale by 2013, eye on MMRCA tender*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thales is all set to begin production RBE2 active electronically scanned array (AESA) radars, keeping an eye on Indian MMRCA Tender and also 60 Rafales which have been ordered by French Générale pour lArmement (DGA), first AESA-equipped squadron is expected to be operational in 2013.
> 
> Preproduction batch of three AESA radars where tested on three different aircrafts, aircrafts used for test flights were Falcon, Mirage-2000 and Rafale. Test flights were carried out in September and December last year and the tranche-four Rafales will be first to get AESA radars.
> 
> First round of Radar test were conducted with US-made transmitter/receivers, but Thales have already developed their locally made transmitter/receivers and will be integrated in the serial production variant of the RBE2 active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar.
> 
> RBE2 Aesa will enable Rafale to be the first European aircraft to feature a AESA Radar, but EADS is already working on e-scan radar for Euro Fighter aircraft and Saab is also testing its AESA radar for Gripen NG, work on AESA Radar program for this aircrafts have picked up speed since all are eyeing lucrative Indian air forces 126 jet order under MMRCA tender, which makes its mandatory for the aircrafts participating in the tender to have tested AESA Radar.
> 
> 
> Aesa Ready Rafale by 2013, eye on MMRCA tender | idrw.org


 
Rafale AESA is not ready yet???


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## SpArK

rockstar said:


> Rafale AESA is not ready yet???


 
Ready and all set for serial *production*.


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## Abingdonboy

jha said:


> *Aesa Ready Rafale by 2013, eye on MMRCA tender*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thales is all set to begin production RBE2 active electronically scanned array (AESA) radars, keeping an eye on Indian MMRCA Tender and also 60 Rafales which have been ordered by French Générale pour l&#8217;Armement (DGA), first AESA-equipped squadron is expected to be operational in 2013.
> 
> Preproduction batch of three AESA radars where tested on three different aircrafts, aircrafts used for test flights were Falcon, Mirage-2000 and Rafale. Test flights were carried out in September and December last year and the tranche-four Rafales will be first to get AESA radars.
> 
> First round of Radar test were conducted with US-made transmitter/receivers, but Thales have already developed their locally made transmitter/receivers and will be integrated in the serial production variant of the RBE2 active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar.
> 
> RBE2 Aesa will enable Rafale to be the first European aircraft to feature a AESA Radar, but EADS is already working on e-scan radar for Euro Fighter aircraft and Saab is also testing its AESA radar for Gripen NG, work on AESA Radar program for this aircrafts have picked up speed since all are eyeing lucrative Indian air forces 126 jet order under MMRCA tender, which makes its mandatory for the aircrafts participating in the tender to have tested AESA Radar.
> 
> 
> Aesa Ready Rafale by 2013, eye on MMRCA tender | idrw.org


 
So given the deal is expected to be signed sometime this year (we hope) and the RFI states delivery of the first SQD within 36 months (so 2014 into IAF) 2013 target (^^^) seems like perfect timing!


+ I'm still in 2 minds about EFT or Rafale, EFT seems like it has good potential as it is a new platform and The Consortium has big plans but due to dwindling defence budgets and low orders I don't know if its potential may ever fully be utilised.

What does anyone think to this Q- what effect does/will the outcome of the MMRA have on the N-MMRCA? The obvious outcome is clear-lower prices for infrastructure etc for the follow on of N-MMRCA after MMRCA but what is the MoD/IN aiming to do? Will they piggyback on the IAF infrastructure and training or are they aiming to set up their own independent naval aviation arm (as it is at the moment to an extent) like the USN and USAF who operate completely different a/c and operate as two completely separate AFs in the same country. In short what I am asking will the winner of the MMRCA automatically (effectively) become the winner of the N-MMRCA (after a orchestrated tender) or will the IN conduct their own separate process where they select their a/c based on it meeting their own unique criteria.


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## Storm Force

Both the EURO FIGHTER & RAFAEL are massively over priced at $120m each fully kitted out with full weapons.

WHY PAY $16 BILLION FOR MMRCA beginning delivery in 2014-2015 when the Russian PAK FA will arrive around 2017 any way. 

does not make sense.


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## localoca

Storm Force said:


> Both the EURO FIGHTER & RAFAEL are massively over priced at $120m each fully kitted out with full weapons.
> 
> WHY PAY $16 BILLION FOR MMRCA beginning delivery in 2014-2015 when the Russian PAK FA will arrive around 2017 any way.
> 
> does not make sense.





keep dreaming...


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## Abingdonboy

localoca said:


> keep dreaming...


 
What are you referring to? IAF getting EFT/ Rafele? Delivery dates of PAK-FA/MMRCA? What?


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## sancho

> *LIBYA: RAF Typhoon hits fresh target, with help from Tornado*
> 
> By Craig Hoyle
> 
> One of the UK Royal Air Force's Eurofighter Typhoons has again been in action against Libyan ground forces, with the type continuing to work in concert with the service's Panavia Tornado GR4 fleet.
> The Ministry of Defence confirms that a two-aircraft formation comprising one Typhoon and one Tornado attacked equipment being operated by forces loyal to Libyan leader Col Muammar Gaddafi on 14 April.
> 
> The UK aircraft "hit a heavy equipment transporter and a munitions store in the Misrata area using [Raytheon] Enhanced Paveway II and Paveway IV bombs," the MoD says in an operational update. Its Tornado GR4s also attacked one main battle tank and one armoured vehicle south of the Libyan capital Tripoli using MBDA dual-mode Brimstone air-to-surface missiles on the same day.
> 
> *Flightglobal understands that the Typhoon's latest combat use of the 454kg (1,000lb) Enhanced Paveway II, along with its debut employment in Libya on 10 April, was enabled by a Tornado GR4 designating its targets using a Rafael Litening III targeting pod*...
> 
> ...The decision to use targeting services provided by the Tornado GR4 stems from a shortage of adequately trained Typhoon pilots, as illustrated in information published by the UK House of Commons' Public Accounts Committee on 15 April.
> In evidence given to the committee on 9 March, two senior RAF officials revealed that only a fraction of the service's 48 Typhoon pilots were qualified to conduct air-to-ground missions, in line with its requirements for the fleet.
> "We have eight pilots trained in the ground-attack role because that is all we need," said Air Vice Marshal Stephen Hillier, air officer commanding the RAF's 2 Group organisation. However, he added: "If we want to deploy that aircraft on an air-to-surface mission, we can do it." The UK's Typhoon force will achieve full multi-role readiness in 2018, with the bulk of the fleet to remain in use until 2030.



LIBYA: RAF Typhoon hits fresh target, with help from Tornado


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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> LIBYA: RAF Typhoon hits fresh target, with help from Tornado


 
This seems like it was purely for show and a symbolic gesture (possibly for th benefit of the IAF?) as couldn't the Tornado have performed this attack by itself without the Typhoon being there?


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## jha




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## Archie

azn:


localoca said:


> keep dreaming...


 
And u Keep trolling


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## holysaturn

localoca said:


> keep dreaming...


 
sema kaamedy


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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> This seems like it was purely for show and a symbolic gesture (possibly for th benefit of the IAF?) as couldn't the Tornado have performed this attack by itself without the Typhoon being there?


 
The Tornados can not only do it without EFs, but way better, because they have more useful weapons like Paveway IV LGBs and Brimstones anti tank missiles. These are more useful for the attacks on tanks, or armored vehicles that gives less risk of collateral damage and it is indeed kind of strange that the EFs will be deployed in A2G with these heavier weapons, while they were not at the begining, when bigger targets was available as well. It is often stated that the RAF EFs have this limited A2G capability including guidance by Litening pod since 2008, then why wasn't it deployed earlier and why do they now need to be guided by Tornados? 
As I said earlier, for the French fighters Libya gives not much new, which could be counted as a selling point, because they showed most of this in Afghanistan before. But fighters like Gripen and EF on the other hand, has now the chance to prove them in real war operations, but the Gripen came only when the enemy AF was not available anymore and will not be deployed in A2G roles. The EF also showed only A2A capabilities (with a bit of PR when you look at the missile load they carry) and now suddenly made ground attacks when no serious targets are available anymore.
An interesting point that I got recently is, that RAF pilots also fly A2G roles as WSOs in French Mirage fighters. They did this in Afghanistan before and now do it in Libya again, which tells us something about French forces and their fighters. They understanded the need of multi role capabilities with the Mirage 2000s ad further improved this idea with the Rafale, while the RAF had the Tornado strike fighter and added mainly an air superiority fighter, with secondary A2G capabilities.


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## sancho

Some new pics of the UAE fighters (Mirage showing an A2A config which will be similar to upgraded IAF Mirage and F16 B60, beeing the base for the F16IN in MMRCA):





Carrying 3 x fuel tanks, 2 x SR and 4 x MR missiles 






Carrying CFTs, 2 x fuel tanks, 1 x LDP, 2 x SR and 4 x MR missiles

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## SpArK



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## Shastra

I hope SAAB GRIPEN wins the tender..it might not be at par with its twin engined competitors but it certainly fits the bill (financially & technically)


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## SpArK

Ministry of Defence | Defence News | Military Operations | Typhoon joins Tornado in Libya ground attack operations


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## SpArK

RAF Typhoon FGR4 aircraft departs Gioia del Colle air base in southern Italy on a mission over Libya (stock image)
[Picture: Corporal Babs Robinson RAF, Crown Copyright/MOD 2011]


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## SpArK

An RAF armourer walks away from a Typhoon FGR4 aircraft at Gioia del Colle air base after having removed the weapons' final arming pins (stock image)
[Picture: Corporal Babs Robinson RAF, Crown Copyright/MOD 2011]







RAF Typhoon aircraft await their next sortie at Gioia del Colle air base in southern Italy (stock image)
[Picture: Senior Aircraftman Neil Chapman, Crown Copyright/MOD 2011]

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## SpArK

*Typhoon pilot describes first air to ground strike
​*





The Royal Air Force pilot who carried out the first operational Typhoon aircraft strike on a ground target has been describing the mission.

The first strike was made against a Libyan regime main battle tank during a mission on Tuesday, 12 April.

The pilot said: I left Gioia Del Colle in a mixed pair with a Tornado GR4.

Wed been tasked to Misratah in the West of Libya, which is pretty much a city under siege, with significant numbers of attacks against the civilian population from pro-regime forces. We were looking along one of the main supply routes in Misratah when we came across a compound with around 10  15 main battle tanks in.

We reported our findings to the command and control assets we work with and shortly thereafter, were cleared to engage.
At that point, we generated coordinates for the targets and dropped weapons. Each time we assessed the likely weapon effect and whether there would be any collateral damage implications.

It was a precision attack from a significant altitude.

To be honest, I was a little bit nervous but you just revert to the training youve done before. Ive dropped a significant number of weapons from the Typhoon in training. It felt no different from that, only this time I was even more relieved to see the bomb go exactly where it should have done, in the Litening III image displayed in my cockpit.

We have proven that the jet can carry weapons a long distance, drop them accurately, land and get pumped full of fuel, reloaded with weapons and go and do it again, day in day out. That makes this capability enduring, and while it may seem like a milestone to some, its just a hurdle that had to be overcome at some point. It has been done, and we will drop more over the life of the aircraft. I think people are just pleased weve got the first one out of the way.

Typhoon pilot describes first air to ground strike | British Forces News

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## SpArK

*The Eurofighter's 'Ground' Realities​*






It's a thumping irony. On the one hand, you have this overwhelming sense --* yoked along by literally unanimous Indian press leaks -- that the Eurofighter Typhoon leads the pack in India's $12-billion MMRCA fighter aircraft competition. On the other hand -- and you couldn't have missed them -- reports in the British press mercilessly pillorying the airplane programme. A brilliant headline in The Register goes "RAF Eurofighters Make Devastating Attack - on Parliament".*

I don't think it is remotely far-fetched or cynical to suggest that* the application of the Eurofighter over Libya (or for that matter, the Rafale), and the carefully calculated release of information about its achievements, has as much, if not more, to do with proving a point to its customers, both current and potential, as it does supporting operational alliance commitments (it was only last week that the Typhoon, previously confined to air-to-air operations over Libya, joined RAF Tornados for air interdiction duties).*

*The Typhoon programme, rather like the Tejas programme here in India, is and has been a deeply polarizing programme, buffeted for years in equal measure by staunch supporters and ruthless detractors. Operations in Libya only happened to cast into stark relief the findings of two reports, one by the British Parliamentary Accounts Committee, and an earlier one by the National Audit Office. Supporters call it a modern, multirole jet that's easy to maintain, has a low logistics footprint, and is one bad- in the sky. Critics say it's an expensive, hard to support air superiority fighter with manoeuverability that nobody needs in a BVR paradigm anyway.
*

*Eurofighter hates the "ground attack" debate. And why not? It remembers how Singapore, which had shown healthy interest in the Typhoon in 2005, bailed and ordered Boeing Super Hornets instead. All because of questions that swirled incessantly around the Typhoon's efficacy as a strike platform. In 2008, the RAF got one of its Typhoons to light up a tent full of British defence journalists with its laser pod in a decidedly dramatic PR exercise to reassure the press about the aircraft's precision strike abilities.*

But that apart, here's what reports, especially the recent ones, suggest: *despite all the increments, the Eurofighter does not have mature ground attack capabilities. It's current strike ability is via a LITENING laser designator pod, and its last capability increment was the addition of EGBU-16 bomb avionic release capability. Finally, it will only truly emerge as a full-blown fighter-bomber at some future point this decade. That's the drift.*

*As far as the Indian fighter competition is concerned, the Eurofighter was put through weapons trials both in Germany and the UK. While EADS obviously won't discuss the details of the trials, Eurofighter boss Bernhard Gerwert says, "Eurofighter Typhoons delivered to the IAF will be the latest Tranche 3 aircraft with state-of-the-art electronic warfare sensors and communication systems. With its proven multi-role combat capability, this aircraft will provide the IAF with unrivalled air superiority and with sophisticated ground attack capabilities."
*
So where do things stand?* What did the Eurofighter demonstrate to the Indian FET team? Did strike trials meet requirements? Obviously, these questions are strictly in the context of what we've been hearing in the last few weeks.* I'll update this post once I hear from the folks at EF. As always, let me know what you think.

Photo ©RAF / By Corporal Babs Robinson

Livefist: The Eurofighter's 'Ground' Realities

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## SpArK

*Typhoons In Libya For Op Unified Protector​*
















Eurofighter Typhoon began combat missions in Libya on 21st March 2011 as part of operation Odyssey Dawn decided by the United Nations Security Council Resolutions 1970 & 1973.

The mission marked the first time the Typhoons have been deployed in enemy combat and the debut as a swing-role platform. After having flown only no-fly zone enforcement missions with both the RAF and ItAF, on 12th April the RAF Typhoons started air-to-ground missions, hitting targets with Paveway II guided bombs.

Eurofighter Cassidian


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## SpArK

Electronic Warfare System on SwAF Gripen: INFO-sheet aimed at a bit wider audience.


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## SpArK

Dassault's futuristic stealth bomber​





http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-dewline/2011/04/laad11-latin-americas-biggest.html

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## SpArK

An Italian Typhoon taxiing at Trapani AB. The Italian Typhoons started the operation to
enforce the no-fly zone over Libya on 28th March 2011. Eurofighter Typhoons from the 
Italian Air Force&#8217;s 4th Stormo based at Grosseto AB have been redeployed to Trapani AB 
for the operation. (photo Aeronautica Militare - Troupe Azzurra)


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## SpArK




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## SpArK

---------- Post added at 02:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:38 PM ----------


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## sancho

EF in strike role with 2 x fuel tanks, 1 x Litening targeting pod, 2 x 1000lb Paveway 2 LGBs and 2 x SR missiles (interestingly no MR missiles).


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## sancho

*Interesting!*



> *Interest Grows In Dual-Mode Brimstone*
> 
> The operational success the U.K. Royal Air Force has had with MBDAs dual-mode Brimstone is driving U.S. and French interest in the munition, says the RAFs assistant chief of the air staff, Air Vice Marshal Baz North.
> 
> The dual-mode weapon has been among the main munitions the RAF Tornado GR4 has been relying on during Libya operations.
> 
> *The initial discussions with the French have begun, although they are at an early stage.
> 
> Still unclear is which French and U.S. platforms might launch the weapons.* Dual-mode Brimstone is a Hellfire-class weapon, which should ease integration on new aircraft.
> 
> The dual-mode Brimstone has been used so heavily that inventory has become a concernthe weapon is modified out of a large existing stock of regular Brimstones. However, a senior NATO official notes that no missions have been scrapped owing to munitions shortages.
> *
> Although the dual-mode Brimstone has been well received, the U.K. for now has no plans to accelerate its fielding on the other U.K. fighter, the Eurofighter Typhoon. So far, the defense ministry has yet to award an integration contract for that weapon. *



Interest Grows In Dual-Mode Brimstone | AVIATION WEEK

There were rumors about integrating Brimstone to Rafale as well (personally I hoped for Helina missiles), which would be an interesting addition. I have some doubts that the US will integrate them, because they will integrate the JAGM anyway, but it's interesting that the UK don't want to integrate the Brimstones to EF soon. That means that the A2G capabilities will remain limited for longer, if they will integrate it on the EF at all, or if they will do it on the F35, which seems to be more logical. Brimstone on EF would be limited to the air force only, but on F35 it could be used on the F35s of their carriers as well.


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## jha

sancho said:


> *Interesting!*
> 
> 
> 
> Interest Grows In Dual-Mode Brimstone | AVIATION WEEK
> 
> There were rumors about integrating Brimstone to Rafale as well (personally I hoped for Helina missiles), which would be an interesting addition. I have some doubts that the US will integrate them, because they will integrate the JAGM anyway, but it's interesting that the UK don't want to integrate the Brimstones to EF soon. That means that the A2G capabilities will remain limited for longer, if they will integrate it on the EF at all, or if they will do it on the F35, which seems to be more logical. Brimstone on EF would be limited to the air force only, but on F35 it could be used on the F35s of their carriers as well.


 
I dont think we even need BRIMSTONE..HELINA is the way to go..
As days are passing I am having doubts with EF..No need to get fancy aircrafts with not fully developed envelope..
Get F-16/F-18 and stop this Drama..


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## Abingdonboy

jha said:


> I dont think we even need BRIMSTONE..HELINA is the way to go..
> *As days are passing I am having doubts with EF*..No need to get fancy aircrafts with not fully developed envelope..
> Get F-16/F-18 and stop this Drama..


 
I'm with you, initially I would've loved to see the EFT with IAF roundals on their wings, soaring through the Indian skies but now it seems the EFT is a bit of a mess. Although EADS asserts that the A2G capability on the Tranche 3 offered to IAF is fully matured, and the EFT must have met IAF criteria in weapons trials. I'm just not sure. It seems the EFT has a lot of work still to be done and I don't know if it will be done as the Europeans cut back on defence. It seems though my previous second favourite- the Rafele is a real winner- Libya has just proved it. Also some other pluses- advanced stage of AESA development (2013 serial production) and Rafele-M could be great for N-MMRCA.


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## sancho

jha said:


> I dont think we even need BRIMSTONE..HELINA is the way to go..
> As days are passing I am having doubts with EF..No need to get fancy aircrafts with not fully developed envelope..
> Get F-16/F-18 and stop this Drama..


 
As I said, I would prefer Helina as well, but the point is which weapons will be integrated and available in the fighters. I said it from the start, that as long as the Tranche 3 is not officially fixed by the partner countries, IAF can only take those weapons and capabilities to account that are available now and they are more than limited!

Rafale remains to be the best fighter for Indian forces, but they don't decide about it, so we have to wait and see.




Abingdonboy said:


> I'm with you, initially I would've loved to see the EFT with IAF roundals on their wings, soaring through the Indian skies but now it seems the EFT is a bit of a mess. Although EADS asserts that the A2G capability on the Tranche 3 offered to IAF is fully matured, and the EFT must have met IAF criteria in weapons trials. I'm just not sure. It seems the EFT has a lot of work still to be done and I don't know if it will be done as the Europeans cut back on defence. It seems though my previous second favourite- the Rafele is a real winner- Libya has just proved it. Also some other pluses- advanced stage of AESA development (2013 serial production) and Rafele-M could be great for N-MMRCA.


 
EADS is just a company of the EF consortium, but the A2G capabilities, just like the T3 upgrade depends on the fundings of the EF partner countries! As long as they don't decide about these things, AESA, CFTs, TVC, Sea Typhoon, anti tank, anti ship, standoff and cruise missiles are not cleared and requires our money as a new partner to make the fighter capable.
Imo that's too expensive, too delayed and don't fit to the operational requirements of our forces, while Rafale offers the complete opposite (less expensive through commonality and funded techs, or weapons. Operational, proven and can be inducted faster than any other fighter. Offers excellent capabilities for IAF, IN and SFC)!


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## luckyyy

jha said:


> I dont think we even need BRIMSTONE..HELINA is the way to go..
> As days are passing I am having doubts with EF..No need to get fancy aircrafts with not fully developed envelope..
> Get F-16/F-18 and stop this Drama..


 
i never gets what's the logic buying a twine engine fighter again in MMRCA when IAF already operating SU-30MKI , i mean inplace buying another twine engine platform , why not just add more MKIs .....atleast it will significatly reduce the infrastructure and training burden that a new platform will bring...

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## jha

*GE Brings Good Things To Hornet, Gripen*









> *At yesterday's roll-out of the 500th Super Hornet/Growler, Boeing program vice-president Kory Mathews confirmed that the F414 Enhanced Performance Engine would be the baseline for the company's offer to India. The idea of the engine has been around for some time, but GE is clearly ready to commit the funds necessary to make the engine a reality*.





> *The new engine offers up to a 20 percent thrust boost. That would take the EPE up to 26,500 pounds of thrust, giving it the best thrust/weight ratio of any fighter engine -- almost 11:1. Alternatively (an option understood to be attracting interest at Saab) the EPE could be delivered with a 10 percent uprate and very generous temperature margins, extending its life and reducing fighter life-cycle costs.*





> *The EPE "will not make much difference at an air show", says Boeing chief test pilot Ric Traven, but dramatically improves the fighter's performance at high speed and altitude, halving supersonic acceleration times. For the Gripen, the extra thrust would translate into further-improved supercruise (supersonic level flight without afterburner) capability*.



MILITARY AVIATION AND SPACE TECHNOLOGY NEWS: GE Brings Good Things To Hornet, Gripen

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## jha

Chances for EF are getting slim..


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## SpArK




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## kingdurgaking

jha said:


> *GE Brings Good Things To Hornet, Gripen*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MILITARY AVIATION AND SPACE TECHNOLOGY NEWS: GE Brings Good Things To Hornet, Gripen


 
Looks like DBC wins the war with sancho on EPE engine ..... seems GE themselves are going to fund on there own...

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## jha

kingdurgaking said:


> Looks like DBC wins the war with sancho on EPE engine ..... seems GE themselves are going to fund on their own...





Always a treat..


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## angeldemon_007

This engine on gripen would be great.....i hope we go for NG or rafale....


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## SpArK




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## SpArK




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## SpArK




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## SpArK




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## SpArK




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## SpArK




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## SpArK




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## SpArK




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## sancho

luckyyy said:


> i never gets what's the logic buying a twine engine fighter again in MMRCA when IAF already operating SU-30MKI , i mean inplace buying another twine engine platform , why not just add more MKIs .....atleast it will significatly reduce the infrastructure and training burden that a new platform will bring...


 
Because medium class twin engine is not equal to heavy class twin engine! The heavy class Flankers will require more maintenance and more fuel compared to medium class fighters, especially compared to western fighters, because they have spares longer life and longer maintenance timeframes. The quality is simply very different and that adds much to the costs, which counters the commonality advantage of more Flankers. Besides reducing operational costs is not an important point in MMRCA!




kingdurgaking said:


> Looks like DBC wins the war with sancho on EPE engine ..... seems GE themselves are going to fund on there own...


 
Not really, because we discussed if the USN has funded the EPE yet and this just proves once more that they have not, nor have interest in it! On the other hand it also confirms that MMRCA / IAF requires higher thrust for more flight performance and GE seems to understands that they have no other option than fund it alone, if the F18SH should fulfill the requirements.
But don't forget this:



> *IAF Rejects last minute offer for powerful engine from one of MMRCA contenders*
> 
> The Indian Air Force has decided against accepting any last minute offers from the contenders of the multi-billion dollar deal for purchase of 126 fighter aircraft even as it rejected a bidders proposal to equip its warplanes with a more powerful jet engine.
> 
> No offers for upgrades or changes in the original bid submitted by the six aircraft companies would be allowed *as their aircraft have been judged on the basis of capabilities offered in the original bid and their performance in the field trials*, IAF sources said here...
> 
> ...*One defence firm had proposed to equip its aircraft with a more powerful engine along with a host of other capabilities but it was rejected as the aircraft has already undergone trials and we cant allow firms to make last minute offers*, they added.
> 
> Though the IAF has accepted some of the futuristic capabilities offered by the companies *but they were proposed in the original bid itself by the respective companies*, they said...



IAF Rejects last minute offer for powerful engine from one of MMRCA contenders | idrw.org


The EPE engine is not available now and was not fielded in the trials, so it looks like an desperate attempt, but it will be interesting if MoD will intervene and rule out IAF and their requirements here. The ball is now in MoDs hand and "now" politics will play a role for sure!


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## SpArK

*But still*

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## sancho

By the fact we are at F18SH, here are some interesting infos on the AN/ALQ-218 wingtip pods of the F18 Growler:



> *AN/ALQ-218 Tactical Jamming Receiver*
> 
> Real-time situational awareness for tactical cueing of jammers/ onboard sensors
> 
> Northrop Grumman's ALQ-218 fully satisfies the unique requirement for a tactical jamming receiver system. In battle, the ALQ-218 tactical jamming receiver is the first system "on the scene" to detect the enemy. The ALQ-218 provides the initial verification for the correlation between the planned Electronic Order of Battle (EOB) and the actual "on the scene" EOB. The ALQ-218 enables aircrews and/or commanders to make quicker and more intelligent decisions to ensure the maximum protection of the friendly forces.
> 
> The ALQ-218 successfully meets the required probability of detection and response time necessary to provide situational awareness for reactive (surgical) jamming. High-powered jammer energy can be concentrated on specific threats and as a result of the jamming, the ALQ-218 follows the changing enemy radar tactics...
> 
> ...*Geolocation/Target-cueing Capability*
> 
> The ALQ-218 utilizes a unique combination of short, medium and long baseline *interferometer techniques with a patented passive ranging algorithm to provide geolocation of emitters* for cueing jammers and other onboard sensors such as electro-optical/infrared sensors and radar.



AN/ALQ-218 Tactical Jamming Receiver


Just as I expected, the F18 Growler has interferometry sensors to geolocate enemy radars and should be able to cue weapons on them, just like the Rafale does with SPECTRA. The difference is only, that every Rafale has this system integrated, while the Growler is the only version of the F18SH with such capabilities and only if the Growler light is available for us, we can get it. Just another option of the F18SH, that already is available through the Rafale F3+ and what explains why the Rafale costs more!


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## angeldemon_007

^^^
I don't think US is offering us Growler.....and even if they offer us Growler they will take away many important component from it.....its better we use our own growler(lca) and with some french and israeli help we can make it comparable to Growler...

But thanx for this information on Rafale....


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## kingofkings

angeldemon_007 said:


> ^^^
> *I don't think US is offering us Growler*.....



Dude I think they are also offering the F-18 G and they have even mentioned about their interest of offering F-35 ....

Boeing India Home: Boeing EA-18G Growler


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## Archie

I think MOD should recieve a nice big kick up its a$$

They should straight forward decided the winner based on IAF recomendation and not play any politics 
even if contract is given to superhornet then also we should have no problem since boing can ensure fast induction and these jets will most likely be used against china , since our Mirage 2000 , Mig29smt and MKI can deal with Pakistan , and US is unlikely to impose sanction in time of an Indo Chinna war
when we look at the fact that PAF is interested in having a fleet of 120+ F16 , inspite of facing the brunt of American sanctions in 1990s , i dont think IAF should be worried about F/A18

Another Interested thing is if either Rafale or Super Hornet win's the contract , there is a high chance that Navy will also opt for the same aircraft , Unless US provides a good deal on F35C without the CISMOSA and BECA ,

so as to ensure commonality with IAF , since navy too is looking for 40-50 N mrca


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## luckyyy

sancho said:


> Because medium class twin engine is not equal to heavy class twin engine! The heavy class Flankers will require more maintenance and more fuel compared to medium class fighters, especially compared to western fighters, because they have spares longer life and longer maintenance timeframes. The quality is simply very different and that adds much to the costs, which counters the commonality advantage of more Flankers. Besides reducing operational costs is not an important point in MMRCA!


 
the maintanence and flying hour cost of MKI is same as compare to any other twine engine in the MMRCA....
and if you take into account of total lify cycle cost , MKI is far cheaper then any twine engine in the compition , also the addition infrastructure and training burden the new platform will bring , that will also cost addition money...

even several IAF officials has already made this point on various time...


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## Shastra

US aerospace major Boeing is anticipating Indian defence orders worth $14 billion, with a company official saying its hands are "pretty full" with orders for fighters and choppers for the air force and reconnaissance planes for the navy. 

Boeing has hands full with Indian defence deals of $14 billion - The Economic Times


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## Shastra

luckyyy said:


> i never gets what's the logic buying a twine engine fighter again in MMRCA when IAF already operating SU-30MKI , i mean inplace buying another twine engine platform , why not just add more MKIs .....atleast it will significatly reduce the infrastructure and training burden that a new platform will bring...


 
good point...but relying on a single vendor might not be such a good idea


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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> Not really, because we discussed if the USN has funded the EPE yet and this just proves once more that they have not, nor have interest in it! On the other hand it also confirms that MMRCA / IAF requires higher thrust for more flight performance and GE seems to understands that they have no other option than fund it alone, if the F18SH should fulfill the requirements.
> But don't forget this:
> IAF Rejects last minute offer for powerful engine from one of MMRCA contenders | idrw.org
> 
> The EPE engine is not available now and was not fielded in the trials, so it looks like an desperate attempt, but it will be interesting if MoD will intervene and rule out IAF and their requirements here. The ball is now in MoDs hand and "now" politics will play a role for sure!


 
How do you know that Boeing is the only one which offered last minute change??? you have any source for it??... secondly you have the proposal of boeing submitted to MoD?? how do you know EPE is not offered in the first case?? 

There could be a chance that EPE might be offered right?? when RFP was studied Boeing would have understood the requirement and would have proposed EPE in the first case..... this is my assumption may be it is true...

As per the report it clearly states EPE is the base line offer for Indian MMRCA... which i guess it was offered from day one ... and the idea of developing EPE seems to be there and it is not a new idea that sprung up when the thrust doesnt seems enough ..... 

Yeah may be EPE was not in the test craft... but it applies the same for all manufactures... No AESA in all the test crafts except US manufactures...


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## dbc

angeldemon_007 said:


> ^^^
> I don't think US is offering us Growler.....and even if they offer us Growler they will take away many important component from it.....its better we use our own growler(lca) and with some french and israeli help we can make it comparable to Growler...
> 
> But thanx for this information on Rafale....



No you don't need Growler ...

The F/A-18 E/F can geo locate this capability is not unique to SPECTRA. The F/A-18 E/F can single ship geo locate emitters, this means a single aircraft can geo locate emitters but when combined with a minimum of three F/A-18 E/F (*multi ship geo locate *) it is capable of multilateration. This turns a formation of F/A-18 E/F into a VERA in the air capable of geo locating the weakest emitter even when this weak emitter is next to a strong emitter. LPI detection and geo location is possible with multi ship geo location.

Multilateration - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## dbc

kingdurgaking said:


> How do you know that Boeing is the only one which offered last minute change??? you have any source for it??... secondly you have the proposal of boeing submitted to MoD?? how do you know EPE is not offered in the first case??
> 
> There could be a chance that EPE might be offered right?? when RFP was studied Boeing would have understood the requirement and would have proposed EPE in the first case..... this is my assumption may be it is true...
> 
> As per the report it clearly states EPE is the base line offer for Indian MMRCA... which i guess it was offered from day one ... and the idea of developing EPE seems to be there and it is not a new idea that sprung up when the thrust doesnt seems enough .....
> 
> Yeah may be EPE was not in the test craft... but it applies the same for all manufactures... No AESA in all the test crafts except US manufactures...


 
EPE was part of the initial proposal from Boeing.



> Paul Oliver, Boeing's senior director for international business development, confirms the F414 enhanced performance engine (EPE) was submitted as part of Boeing's proposal to win the MMRCA contract.



Dubai 09: Boeing aims to win Indian deal with engine offer


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## Dash

kingdurgaking said:


> How do you know that Boeing is the only one which offered last minute change??? you have any source for it??... secondly you have the proposal of boeing submitted to MoD?? how do you know EPE is not offered in the first case??
> 
> There could be a chance that EPE might be offered right?? when RFP was studied Boeing would have understood the requirement and would have proposed EPE in the first case..... this is my assumption may be it is true...
> 
> As per the report it clearly states EPE is the base line offer for Indian MMRCA... which i guess it was offered from day one ... and the idea of developing EPE seems to be there and it is not a new idea that sprung up when the thrust doesnt seems enough .....
> 
> Yeah may be EPE was not in the test craft... but it applies the same for all manufactures... No AESA in all the test crafts except US manufactures...


 
Dont want to bulldoze your conversation with Sancho. But EPE or EDE will depend on what IAF will need, whether they offer or not.

We dont even know for sure if EPE or EDE is being taken/given for LCA MK2.


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## sancho

kingdurgaking said:


> How do you know that Boeing is the only one which offered last minute change??? you have any source for it??... secondly you have the proposal of boeing submitted to MoD?? how do you know EPE is not offered in the first case??



Now lets see, EF and it's EJ 200 has the highest TWR ratio, clearly no new engine needed. Mig 35, Rafale and F16IN are offered with their latest engine versions and has high TWRs anyway. Gripen NG is offered with a new engine, the GE 414G instead of the Volvo RM 12 and although the NG came late to the trials, it was available to test the engine.
Which leaves us with the F18SH, that has the lowest TWR of all competitors and the only engine available for tests in the trials was the normal GE 414 engines (98kN AB thrust), because the EPE is nothing more than a demo programm so far. 
And also think about the TOI report about IAF not beeing satisfied with the thrust of the F18SH and that further negotiations are going on. What do you think these further negotiation might be? 




kingdurgaking said:


> and the idea of developing EPE seems to be there and it is not a new idea that sprung up when the thrust doesnt seems enough .....



Wrong, the initial idea was that an export customer funds it, because the USN, nor the US government wants to do it and that is still the case! This new article just says, IF the US government cancells the GE engine development for F35, GE would divert funds that were planed for that engine, to fund the GE 414 EPE engine. But there is no decision about the F35 engine yet and so far GE will have to wait. Also think about this, if the EPE was part of the initial offer and GE had the neccesary funds, they had time from 2007 (when the RFP for MMRCA was sent out) till today to develop at least a test version of the engine integrated in a fighter. But that is not the case, isn't it? 




kingdurgaking said:


> Yeah may be EPE was not in the test craft... but it applies the same for all manufactures... No AESA in all the test crafts except US manufactures...



 Except of the EF (that might had showed the CESAR AESA demonstrator during the weapon trials in Europe), all fighters came with AESA installed to the trials in India.

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## sancho

Dash said:


> Dont want to bulldoze your conversation with Sancho. But EPE or EDE will depend on what IAF will need, whether they offer or not.
> 
> We dont even know for sure if EPE or EDE is being taken/given for LCA MK2.


 
When we take the price to account for the LCA engines, it is clear that the normal GE 414G was ordered, because it is not more expensive then the Super Hornet engines. Any further developed engine would cost more, because they require more funds, also if India had chosen the EPE for Tejas, the US companies would have made a big PR campain out of it, because that would increase the chances of the SH not only in India, but also in Brazil, Japan, or other countries.




kingofkings said:


> Dude I think they are also offering the F-18 G and they have even mentioned about their interest of offering F-35 ....
> 
> Boeing India Home: Boeing EA-18G Growler


 
Boeing is ready to offer a light version of the Growler to export customers, basically with the wingtip pods, but without the important jammers. That still would require the approval of US government, but as I said it's of limited benefit for us, when other fighters offers similar techs in every fighter, not only in specific versions. All Eurocanards have integrated ESM/ECM systems, Rafale and Gripen E/F has already, or will have interferometry techs, so we have alternatives and are not dependent on the US in this field.


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## sancho

*In addition to the earlier comparison:*

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/4347-mrca-news-discussions-321.html#post1663462


Some more pics of the F18 Hornet in air policing config:


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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> Now lets see, EF and it's EJ 200 has the highest TWR ratio, clearly no new engine needed. Mig 35, Rafale and F16IN are offered with their latest engine versions and has high TWRs anyway. Gripen NG is offered with a new engine, the GE 414G instead of the Volvo RM 12 and although the NG came late to the trials, it was available to test the engine.
> Which leaves us with the F18SH, that has the lowest TWR of all competitors and the only engine available for tests in the trials was the normal GE 414 engines (98kN AB thrust), because the EPE is nothing more than a demo programm so far.
> And also think about the TOI report about IAF not beeing satisfied with the thrust of the F18SH and that further negotiations are going on. What do you think these further negotiation might be?



still your assumption right? ... and TOI is a toilet paper.. and you dont need to take them seriously.... A negotiations can be anything.. it can be on offset .. weapons systems... or Electronics.. not necessarily to be engine... Yeah present engine may not be powerful.. but Boeing surely would have proposed an offset.. which wasnt a last minute change which IAF where crying... because the EPE where as part of the proposal already... 



> Wrong, the initial idea was that an export customer funds it, because the USN, nor the US government wants to do it and that is still the case! This new article just says, IF the US government cancells the GE engine development for F35, GE would divert funds that were planed for that engine, to fund the GE 414 EPE engine. But there is no decision about the F35 engine yet and so far GE will have to wait. Also think about this, if the EPE was part of the initial offer and GE had the neccesary funds, they had time from 2007 (when the RFP for MMRCA was sent out) till today to develop at least a test version of the engine integrated in a fighter. But that is not the case, isn't it?



the report clearly says that base line of Indian MMRCA is with EPE and was proposed as part of the proposal..... without any prospect customer you will not develope a product.... will you invest in such a product no right?? so they will wait for Indian MMRCA which is going to comeplete in a month or two... read the below report



> Paul Oliver, Boeing's senior director for international business development, confirms the F414 enhanced performance engine (EPE) was submitted as part of Boeing's proposal to win the MMRCA contract






> Except of the EF (that might had showed the CESAR AESA demonstrator during the weapon trials in Europe), all fighters came with AESA installed to the trials in India.


 NG doesnt exist fully and Mig -35 is a paper plane... even Dassault AESA was validated to French requirement in 2010 only then we have to see IAF requirement. which means it wasnt a full fledge radar but some prototype.... EFT not fully developed... still F-16 has to developed to block 70... so every Manufacture came with some lame promise and not a full fledge working model right..


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## bhagat

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-kYJc4tSQ7Hs/TbCDMbmixsI/AAAAAAAAM-s/vMmKmkvt9Ww/s1600/MMRCA_navy.jpg

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## jamesbaldwin

^^^ Rafle/EFT for MMRCA and Rafel/EFT for N-MMRCA!!!!


COME AND GET US PAKISTAN!!


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## GORKHALI

SpArK said:


> *But still*


 
*SPARKY* am gonna sue you for Copyright violation to post pics from my Blog


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## ramu

kingdurgaking said:


> still your assumption right? ... and TOI is a toilet paper.. and you dont need to take them seriously.... A negotiations can be anything.. it can be on offset .. weapons systems... or Electronics.. not necessarily to be engine... Yeah present engine may not be powerful.. but Boeing surely would have proposed an offset.. which wasnt a last minute change which IAF where crying... because the EPE where as part of the proposal already...
> 
> 
> 
> the report clearly says that base line of Indian MMRCA is with EPE and was proposed as part of the proposal..... without any prospect customer you will not develope a product.... will you invest in such a product no right?? so they will wait for Indian MMRCA which is going to comeplete in a month or two... read the below report
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NG doesnt exist fully and Mig -35 is a paper plane... even Dassault AESA was validated to French requirement in 2010 only then we have to see IAF requirement. which means it wasnt a full fledge radar but some prototype.... EFT not fully developed... still F-16 has to developed to block 70... so every Manufacture came with some lame promise and not a full fledge working model right..


 
It is quite clear, sancho is right.


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## kingdurgaking

ramu said:


> It is quite clear, sancho is right.


 
be specific on what he is right.. i have countered with logical facts... if EPE is already part of proposal.. how come it will be a last minute change?

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## GORKHALI

*Potential JSF Customers Inquire About Super Hornet*

*SOURCE AVIATION WEEK* A number of potential Joint Strike Fighter customers have asked for information about the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, according to Boeing Military Aircraft President Chris Chadwick.

We see customers trying to recapitalize their tactical fighter forces and balancing that with huge budget pressures, and trying to make the best decisions going forward, Chadwick says.

Boeing sees potential to extend the Super Hornet production line to 1,000 aircraft by 2020, company officials said April 20 as the 500th member of the Super Hornet and EA-18G Growler family was delivered to the U.S. Navy.

Current and planned orders for the Navy and Australia total just fewer than 700 aircraft, including 41 additional Navy aircraft announced earlier this year to mitigate the effect of JSF delays. Middle Eastern countries are among those expressing interest; they do not include Saudi Arabia.

Chadwick calls the Super Hornet a low-risk, low-cost, known-time offering worldwide, and Boeing officials repeatedly observed that Super Hornets are all being delivered on cost and ahead of schedule  a not-so-subtle reference to delays and overruns in the JSF program.

Boeings strategy, Chadwick says, is based on the idea that what the customer wants is next-generation technology, when its available and as soon as it can be incorporated. We have an approach that allows rapid integration of technology into the platform.

The Hornet international options package, shown at the April 20 event, exemplifies this approach. The options include a centerline weapons pod, with radar signatures compatible with an otherwise clean Super Hornet, conformal tanks accommodating 3,000 lb. of fuel, a chin-mounted integrated search-and-track system and all-round missile and laser warning, as well as a new big-screen cockpit.

Kory Mathews,* Super Hornet program vice president, confirmed that Boeing and General Electric will offer the Enhanced Performance Engine (EPE) variant of the F414 for Indias Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft competition. The EPE uses an advanced core demonstrated with GE and U.S. government funding since the early 2000s and an improved higher-airflow fan, and delivers up to 26,500 lb. of thrust.*






*That EPE engine has offered as standard engine for F/A 18 E/F BLOCK 2*
No more conflict in this area atleast..
MILITARY AVIATION AND SPACE TECHNOLOGY NEWS: Potential JSF Customers Inquire About Super Hornet

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## jha

Off Topic..but interesting..

*Boeing engineers: We should have won F-35 fighter contract*






Many Boeing engineers still grumble that Boeing&#8217;s design for the joint strike fighter, not Lockheed Martin Corp.&#8217;s, should have won the Air Force contract a decade ago to build the aircraft now known as the F-35.
Lockheed Martin&#8217;s October 2001 win cemented its lead as builder of the nation&#8217;s most numerous next-generation fighter.
Then touted as a $200 billion contract for 3,000 aircraft, the competition carried even more weight than the just-concluded fight over the Air Force tanker, which Boeing (NYSE: BA) did win.
The joint strike fighter was intended to be a low-cost fighter for all three branches of the military that was simultaneously stealthy and supersonic &#8212; and in the U.S. Marines version, able to land vertically like a helicopter.
Lockheed&#8217;s (NYSE: LMT) version of the F-35 has been riddled with cost overruns and technical difficulties, especially for the &#8220;short take-off and vertical landing&#8221; version, otherwise known as the STOVL.
High costs and technical issues have caused the program to be restructured twice in two years, and some expected overseas customers have been balking at the rising price tag. Last year Defense Secretary Robert Gates put the STOVL version on probation until issues could be resolved.
&#8220;Whenever we hear about Lockheed&#8217;s difficulties with the JSF, we all look at each other, and say, &#8220;They didn&#8217;t pick the right product,&#8217;&#8221; said Cynthia Cole, a former flight test engineer on the Boeing program from 1997 through 2002. Cole, now working outside Boeing, also was president of the Society of Professional Engineering Employees in Aerospace from 2006 through 2010.
In particular, Boeing engineers mutter about the STOVL version. They claim that Boeing&#8217;s design, which relied on rerouting the thrust of the main engine, would have been more trouble-free than the Lockheed Martin design, which also includes a central shaft-driven fan.
&#8220;I thought our vertical takeoff model was far superior,&#8221; Cole said. &#8220;The design was definitely cutting edge, it was new technology. We really thought it was going to win the day for us.&#8221;
Bill Sweetman, who reports military aircraft for Aviation Week and Space Technology magazine, does concede that the Boeing version was simpler and &#8220;eliminated some of the more complicated moving parts on the Lockheed design.&#8221;
But he contends that the Lockheed Martin design STVOL performed better on the test aircraft.
&#8220;If you look back to that competition, and you look at what was happening at the time, the only way it (the Boeing version) did a vertical landing was with inlet lip and landing gear doors removed,&#8221; Sweetman said about the Boeing design. &#8220;It would have been very hard to award to Boeing, because they hadn&#8217;t properly demonstrated vertical landing.&#8221;
But Cole disagrees, and adds that Boeing had finished its prototypes under budget and before deadline.
She said the announcement of Lockheed Martin&#8217;s win was a big surprise, because Boeing insiders in Washington, D.C. thought they were ahead.
&#8220;Everybody was really bummed,&#8221; she said. &#8220;We had the cafeteria filled, and once the announcement was made, everybody just walked away.&#8221;
In a way, that's the opposite of the recent Air Force tanker award, which most observers, even some within Boeing, had thought would go to rival EADS.
A consolation prize for Boeing has been that delays in Lockheed&#8217;s version of the F-35 have kept Boeing fighter assembly lines in St. Louis rolling, as the Navy has continued to order F/A-18/EF Superhornets.


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## sancho

kingdurgaking said:


> still your assumption right? ... and TOI is a toilet paper.. and you dont need to take them seriously.... A negotiations can be anything.. it can be on offset .. weapons systems... or Electronics.. not necessarily to be engine... Yeah present engine may not be powerful.. but Boeing surely would have proposed an offset.. which wasnt a last minute change which IAF where crying... because the EPE where as part of the proposal already...



No plain logic! The only fighter that needs higher thrust, or don't have at least a new version of the engine is the F18SH, so when IAF refuse a last minute offer of a higher thrust engine, by logic it can only come from Boeing and GE! 
The TOI report clearly said that further negotiations *on the engine issue* are awaited, so no need to speculate on other things.

Try to differentiate between things the manufacturer offers and things that IAF accepted as part of the initial bid!
The EPE as part of the Silent Hornet options are on offer for any export customer, if they fund it, just like the EF consortium offers TVC and CFTs as options. But all these things are not integrated into the fighters and can be tested during the trials, or at least test flights. That's the difference to the AESA prototypes of the EF, Gripen NG and Mig 35, because they were available. That's why IAF will judge the F18SH only with the normal GE 414 engine, just like they judge the EF with AESA, but without TVC, or CFTs.
For the SH that means a clear disadvantage in the flight performance, for EF a clear disadvantage in payload and range (withough CFT advantage).
So even if GE now funds the development of the EPE, it would not be taken to account into the initial bid, at least as far IAF concerns, but as I said ealier, MoD now takes the decision. Will be interesting to see if they help Boeing and the US, against IAF rules.




jha said:


> She said the announcement of Lockheed Martin&#8217;s win was a big surprise, because Boeing insiders in Washington, D.C. thought they were ahead.


 
I guess Nothrop felt the same as well when the F22 won, because their F23 also was considered to be better, or ahead. But as we all know, pure performance is often not the key to win such competitions, not even when it's a competition of indigenous manufacturers only.


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## SpArK

Off topic.. but good information check this out

*Russian Su-35 fighter will be a part of Brazilian tender again
​*






According to RIA Novosti, Russian Su-35 fighter will take part in a new Brazilian tender on delivery of a large batch of multi-role combat jets. It has been reported by the source from Brazilian military-industrial complex (MIC).

The tender on acquisition of fighters for Brazilian air forces in accordance with F-X program has been put out in 2001 and cancelled in 2005. It has been renewed in 2008 as F-X2 and stopped again in 2010. American fighter Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, French Dassault Rafale, Swedish Saab JAS 39 Gripen NG and European Eurofighter Typhoon have taken part in this tender at different stages.


Rosoboronexport has presented the multi-role "4++"-generation Su-35 fighter, but the jet has been excluded from the tender in 2008.

According to a source in Brazilian MIC, the tender will be renewed in the nearest future as F-X3, and the Russian fighter will be a part of it, moreover, it has a great chances to succeed: the Brazilian air force command speaks well of Russian jet ".

The source has specified that the meeting held in the network of BRICS summit on April 14th with the participation of president of Russia, Dmitriy Medvedev and the president of Brazil Dilma Rousseff has seriously influenced the situation since the presidents have discussed the situation with Brazilian tender ". Rousseff has stated that no decisions on fighters acquisitions have been made and all the tenders participants may take part in it again ".

*The second factor is that Moscow has offered Brazil to take part in fifth-generation fighter program, and the Brazilian party has taken it seriously.*

The F-X2 tenders conditions include the delivery of 36 fighters (with an option of joint assembly of up to 84 more jets in Brazil), spare parts, radar with active phase antenna array, air-to-air missiles of short and medium range (with active radar homer), controlled bombs with GPS homing, and technical support for a period of 10 years. According to different assessments, the amount of this contract will be $6-12 billion.



Russian Su-35 fighter will be a part of Brazilian tender again - News - Russian Aviation - RUAVIATION.COM


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## angeldemon_007

We can buy the work done by boeing for our 5th gen project...every country does this....LM purchased the work done by russian company for their JSF project...China has acquired many prototypes from previous USSR states....


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## luckyyy

SpArK said:


> Off topic.. but good information check this out
> 
> *Russian Su-35 fighter will be a part of Brazilian tender again
> ​*


 
it's not at all off topic...

SU-35 is just SU-30MKI....

so the point remain , why IAF need to buy another twine engine inplace of just adding more MKIs....


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## Just Yash

luckyyy said:


> it's not at all off topic...
> 
> SU-35 is just SU-30MKI....
> 
> so the point remain , why IAF need to buy another twine engine inplace of just adding more MKIs....


 
YA... WITHOUT CANARD, REDUCED RADAR CROSS SECTION, HIGH POWER ENGINE, MORE POWERFUL RADAR AND BATTER AVIONICS.


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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> No plain logic! The only fighter that needs higher thrust, or don't have at least a new version of the engine is the F18SH, so when IAF refuse a last minute offer of a higher thrust engine, by logic it can only come from Boeing and GE!


so you mean to say Boeing didnt propose EPE in the initial bid? if you go by this? do you have any source to back this?... IAF hasnt named any one's name saying last minute offer... we are just under speculation.. how do you know dassault performed well?? i still doubt dassault is the culprit who came with last minute change... not Boeing.. still my speculation..because UAE has said it is underpowered and it may apply to IAF also


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## SpArK

kingdurgaking said:


> so you mean to say Boeing didnt propose EPE in the initial bid? if you go by this? do you have any source to back this?... IAF hasnt named any one's name saying last minute offer... we are just under speculation.. how do you know dassault performed well?? i still doubt dassault is the culprit who came with last minute change... not Boeing.. still my speculation..because UAE has said it is underpowered and it may apply to IAF also


 

They *offered*.. we said no *offer* other than the one trialed.. so its indeed Hornet the MoD was talking about.


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## angeldemon_007

> it's not at all off topic...
> 
> SU-35 is just SU-30MKI....
> 
> so the point remain , why IAF need to buy another twine engine inplace of just adding more MKIs....


Its because MKI is a air-superiority fighter and cannot do the job as well like that of dogfight....Its just like US have F15 for the work which Su30mki does for IAF and f16,f18 for the job which mirage, mig29 etc. does....but here in case of MMRCA IAF is looking for a perfect fighter which can do all the jobs in other words multi-role and thats why every company is offering a newer version of fighters as present fighters cannot meet the IAF's requirement....



> i still doubt dassault is the culprit who came with last minute change... not Boeing.. still my speculation..because UAE has said it is underpowered and it may apply to IAF also


According to me, whether or not dassault cheated, rafale is still the best choice.....f18 engine is also not that impressive...but this new engine adds extra thrust....and hence its good....as far as Rafale is concerned French already offered to fit Rafale with our K-10 Kaveri (90kn each)...Not to mention rafale is highly developed and has truly the multi role features and can easily get us technologies...also we won't have to spend more in infrastructure and training as IAF is already operating mirage 2k...
As far as US is concerned, i can't believe you are blaming France instead of US which has been playing foul games in all the competition at-least in the past 5-6 years...beating rafale by all whatever means possible....
F18 international roadmap plan is good but we are not getting that in mmrca, we are getting a promise or might even a signed agreement to be the part of international roadmap, which only means that its upgrade is ensure but lets face it the mid-life upgrade is far in the future (10-15 years later)....so isn't it better that we purchase the most advanced plane right now because by the end of the decade iaf will start operating 5th gen fighters...
Its just like saying that US is offering us f35 but actually US is offering us f16 and if we select it, we will be eligible to purchase f35....


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## kingdurgaking

angeldemon_007 said:


> According to me, whether or not dassault cheated, rafale is still the best choice.....f18 engine is also not that impressive...but this new engine adds extra thrust....and hence its good....as far as Rafale is concerned French already offered to fit Rafale with our K-10 Kaveri (90kn each)...Not to mention rafale is highly developed and has truly the multi role features and can easily get us technologies...also we won't have to spend more in infrastructure and training as IAF is already operating mirage 2k...
> As far as US is concerned, i can't believe you are blaming France instead of US which has been playing foul games in all the competition at-least in the past 5-6 years...beating rafale by all whatever means possible....
> F18 international roadmap plan is good but we are not getting that in mmrca, we are getting a promise or might even a signed agreement to be the part of international roadmap, which only means that its upgrade is ensure but lets face it the mid-life upgrade is far in the future (10-15 years later)....so isn't it better that we purchase the most advanced plane right now because by the end of the decade iaf will start operating 5th gen fighters...
> Its just like saying that US is offering us f35 but actually US is offering us f16 and if we select it, we will be eligible to purchase f35....


 
No one is arguing which is best.. Rafale ,EFT -T3 , F-18 with EPE , F-16 B-70 everything is best.. so nothing is worst.. as per the report EPE is provided in the orginal bid... there is no place of argument that it is Boeing.. but only dassault... read the report properly



> No offers for upgrades or changes in the original bid submitted by the six aircraft companies would be allowed as their aircraft have been judged on the basis of *capabilities offered in the original bid *and their performance in the field trials,



It clearly says as quoted in bid ... and comparing the performance in trails.. it doesnt says trails should have the same what is quoted in bid..


same applies to Spark response too


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## kingdurgaking

luckyyy said:


> it's not at all off topic...
> 
> SU-35 is just SU-30MKI....
> 
> so the point remain , why IAF need to buy another twine engine inplace of just adding more MKIs....


 
SU-35BM is not MKI.. but advanced version.. only SU-35 is clone of MKI.. SU-35BM came from Su-37


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## sancho

SpArK said:


> Off topic.. but good information check this out



That's just Russian media hoping that the Su 35 can be back in the race again, but Brazilian officials denied that already. The tender is postponed till next year, but only the 3 shortlisted fighters are under concideration.




kingdurgaking said:


> so you mean to say Boeing didnt propose EPE in the initial bid? if you go by this? do you have any source to back this?... IAF hasnt named any one's name saying last minute offer... we are just under speculation.. how do you know dassault performed well?? i still doubt dassault is the culprit who came with last minute change... not Boeing.. still my speculation..because UAE has said it is underpowered and it may apply to IAF also



I meant that Boeing offered it as an option at the begining, but by the fact that it's not available yet, IAF did not accepted it for the initial Boeing bid in MMRCA.
UAE wants the Rafale to carry higher strike loads, that's why they want more thrust (up to 3 x 2000lb PGMs, or Scalp missiles, more AAMs and possibly CFTs), because the US denies standoff weapons for the F16 B60 and the integration of Scalp / Black Shaheen missiles. That's why they want more thrust for such heavy strike roles, aimed on Iran of course. On the other side, the Rafale with it's normal engine showed impressive dog fighting abilities in the UAE and the hot conditions, against F22s! How should that be possible if it would be underpowered?
Not to mention that is proved the same against EF, Gripen and nearly all teen series fighters. I hoped so much that we get first some reports about Rafale Ms vs Mig 29Ks in dogfights during Varuna exercise, but sadly IN missed the chance.
However, the F3+ is offered with a new engine and we even have the option to integrate Kaveri - Snecma engine if we want and what I highly recommend if Rafale is chosen, because it offers not only more thrust, but more independence with a higher indigenous content. So for Rafale more thrust is a bonus, for F18SH it is crucial to fulfill IAF requirements!


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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> I meant that Boeing offered it as an option at the begining, but by the fact that it's not available yet, IAF did not accepted it for the initial Boeing bid in MMRCA.


 
I am missing something.. how can IAF reject something offered in the bid...if so Boeing didnt change the bid which IAF cried for.. which means it is some other manufacture... As for logic.. EPE core is tested.. and all the modern technical challenges are tested with EDE.. it is just a matter of assembling.. which GE is confident of delivering with E/F block 2... 

so Boeing is not the culprit... so the other who came in to limelight is Dassault .... just kidding... Since we are not clear and we cant go by any logic.. 
I am confident that Boeing didnt ... so it is the others who did it... But Boeing didnt deliver them in the trails for sure.. which means it cant be rejected..As of report IAF mostly validates it with the bid configuration and compares it with the performance in the trails.. It didnt expect the product off the shelf.. if it is so it would have kissed good bye to 3 of them before the trails.. as they are in paper only...


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## sancho

kingdurgaking said:


> I am missing something.. how can IAF reject something offered in the bid...if so Boeing didnt change the bid which IAF cried for.. which means it is some other manufacture... As for logic.. EPE core is tested.. and all the modern technical challenges are tested with EDE.. it is just a matter of assembling.. which GE is confident of delivering with E/F block 2...



Because it is only an option and not available yet, they just refused to take the options, what's so strange about it? 
Not really, they have only demo versions of the engines for ground tests, no version for enhanced flight tests, the same is the case with M88-3, or EJ 230 with 3D TVC, that are on offer as options as well. 



kingdurgaking said:


> and we cant go by any logic.. .


 
We can, but you deny the logic, that's the problem!


----------



## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> Because it is only an option and not available yet, they just refused to take the options, what's so strange about it?
> Not really, they have only demo versions of the engines for ground tests, no version for enhanced flight tests, the same is the case with M88-3, or EJ 230 with 3D TVC, that are on offer as options as well.



so you mean to say it is given only as option not as configuration.. do you have any source to back... because lot of source says it is a configuration.. how can a customer deny a configuration.. though he can drop the option..



sancho said:


> We can, but you deny the logic, that's the problem!


 
there is no logic in me denying .. if you can show me a source... otherwise i can say 1=2 ... just by doing some damn logic.. without a base.... we dont know what has happened in trails ... how it is evaluated.. everything is tight lipped and under wraps.... we are just getting a news every week .. this is leading and that is leading.. thats it and we cant assume all the sources are true.. just take the engine competition..


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## dbc

kingdurgaking said:


> so you mean to say Boeing didnt propose EPE in the initial bid? if you go by this? do you have any source to back this?... IAF hasnt named any one's name saying last minute offer... we are just under speculation.. how do you know dassault performed well?? i still doubt dassault is the culprit who came with last minute change... not Boeing.. still my speculation..because UAE has said it is underpowered and it may apply to IAF also



That is right we heard from the UAE that the Rafale was under powered, General Alain Silvy confirmed this in an interview. A new more reliable engine M88 4E is expected in 2012, we know the M88 suffers from reliability issues, as a matter of fact the M88 experienced technical issues at AeroIndia 2011 it is more than possible the French engine has not impressed the IAF and the French are now offering a new variant of the M88.

The EPE has been funded by GE and the US government and has been under development and testing for the last 10 years. 17 EPE prototypes have been built by GE, there are more EPE prototypes in existence than Rafale AESA radar it is ridiculous to claim that the EPE is just a 'demo'. If the IAF was willing to evaluate prototype gear from other vendors then why is impossible for them to have evaluated a F/A 18 F with some of the 17 EPE prototypes already built.

http://www.boeing.com/AeroIndia2011/pdf/Aero_India_Super_Hornet_Briefing.pdf

Reactions: Like Like:
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## SpArK

*Sigonella Air Base in Sicily i... air campaign in Libya​*


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## SpArK

*Will Russias MiG abandon the Indian race?​*
By Ilya Kramnik, RIA Novosti military columnist 

*Moscow. The Indian tender for 126 MMRCAs (medium multi-role combat aircraft) to replace its ageing MiGs was announced long ago, but only now is the real intrigue unfolding. Competition between two main rivals - the United States F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and Russias MiG-35 has been stiff.
*





 

The intrigue heightened after Russia announced its MiG-35 would not be on display at an air show in Bangalore. Many experts took the absence of a real live MiG as a sign that Russia was pulling out of the race.

*Leading entries compared*

The Russian and U.S. fighters each have their own strengths. The Super Hornets design maturity is indeed impressive. It has been in serial production for over 10 years and carries an active phased-array radar (APAR), or what is generally known as the Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) combat radar, which is also in serial production. The United States is also in a position to start manufacturing the aircraft for an Indian order at short notice.

(Notably however, AESA is THE key requirement for the Indian tender. At present, this technology features only on three aircraft in the world, all of them US, Lockheed Martins F 22 Raptor and F 16 Block 60 with UAE, and Boeings F/A 18 E/F Super Hornet or its electronic warfare version EA 18G Growler).

*The MiG-35s advantages include Indias experience of MiG-29s and the fact that maintenance infrastructure for them is in place across the country, as well as Russias readiness to share production technology with India. The MiG-35s main shortcoming is its APAR: it is still in development and this is set to continue for a year or two. Also, despite its MiG-29 origins, the MiG-35 still needs refining before it can go into serial production.
*

*Fundamentally, the only thing the MiG-35 shares with the previous MiG-29 family is its appearance. Its equipment and facilities have undergone a radical overhaul. The aircraft is now capable of using the very latest air-to-surface munitions, making it a multi-role fighter, unlike the MiG-29, which is considered an air-supremacy fighter.*

*The cockpit, in line with the current fashion, is equipped with multifunctional liquid-crystal display screens, while the HOTAS (hands on throttle-and-stick) system allows the pilot to manage all the weapons systems without taking their hands off the aircraft and engine controls.
*

*Vectored-thrust engines make the plane much more maneuverable, increasing its chances of winning in close combat and avoiding longrange missile fire.*

*The fact that a two-seat version - the MiG-35D - is available, with the same kind of avionics as the singleseater, means that groups consisting of one- and two-seater aircraft can be formed, which are capable of carrying out highly complicated missions. In such formations the two-seaters become command planes, coordinating the moves of a flight or squadron.
*


*Boeing meanwhile ...*


Unlike Russia, which decided not to put its MiG-35 on display in Bangalore, *the United States has stepped up its activity and unveiled the latest version of the F/A-18, or the Silent Hornet, upscaled with stealth technology.*

*These warplanes are kitted out with conformal fuel tanks, enhanced performance engines, spherical missile laser warning (SM/LW), enclosed weapons pads and next generation cockpits complete with internal infrared search and tracking systems
*

*The aircraft on display at the show is the first to be developed as part of the International Super Hornet Roadmap program, which Boeing announced at the Farnborough air show last year. The fighter is being touted as a new generation in the Super Hornet family, which will feature improved combat survivability, situational awareness and performance for customers.

Boeings vice president Vivek Lall said that if India signs a contract with Boeing under the MMRCA tender it will be able to obtain this technology. We are creating a platform which will be combat worthy for the next 30 or 40 years, he said.
*

This announcement is unprecedented for an American company - until now only the United States closest allies have been granted full access to this kind of technology. All the others had to make do with what they were sold.


*Tender results are expected to be announced this summer. They are particularly important for the MiG: should the MiG-35 fail to get an export order, Sukhoi aircraft will be left in a position of unassailable dominance on Russias combat aviation market.
*

Despite the unquestioned potential of Sukhoi platforms and their proven quality, such a monopoly is unlikely to be helpful.

..:: India Strategic ::.. Air Force: Will Russias MiG abandon the Indian race?


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## Abingdonboy

SpArK said:


> *Will Russia&#8217;s MiG abandon the Indian race?​*
> By Ilya Kramnik, RIA Novosti military columnist
> 
> *Moscow. The Indian tender for 126 MMRCAs (medium multi-role combat aircraft) to replace its ageing MiGs was announced long ago, but only now is the real intrigue unfolding. Competition between two main rivals - the United States&#8217; F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and Russia&#8217;s MiG-35 has been stiff.
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The intrigue heightened after Russia announced its MiG-35 would not be on display at an air show in Bangalore. Many experts took the absence of a &#8220;real live&#8221; MiG as a sign that Russia was pulling out of the race.
> 
> *Leading entries compared*
> 
> The Russian and U.S. fighters each have their own strengths. The Super Hornet&#8217;s design maturity is indeed impressive. It has been in serial production for over 10 years and carries an active phased-array radar (APAR), or what is generally known as the Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) combat radar, which is also in serial production. The United States is also in a position to start manufacturing the aircraft for an Indian order at short notice.
> 
> (Notably however, AESA is THE key requirement for the Indian tender. At present, this technology features only on three aircraft in the world, all of them US, Lockheed Martin&#8217;s F 22 Raptor and F 16 Block 60 with UAE, and Boeing&#8217;s F/A 18 E/F Super Hornet or its electronic warfare version EA 18G Growler).
> 
> *The MiG-35&#8217;s advantages include India&#8217;s experience of MiG-29s and the fact that maintenance infrastructure for them is in place across the country, as well as Russia&#8217;s readiness to share production technology with India. The MiG-35&#8217;s main shortcoming is its APAR: it is still in development and this is set to continue for a year or two. Also, despite its MiG-29 origins, the MiG-35 still needs refining before it can go into serial production.
> *
> 
> *Fundamentally, the only thing the MiG-35 shares with the previous MiG-29 family is its appearance. Its equipment and facilities have undergone a radical overhaul. The aircraft is now capable of using the very latest air-to-surface munitions, making it a multi-role fighter, unlike the MiG-29, which is considered an air-supremacy fighter.*
> 
> *The cockpit, in line with the current fashion, is equipped with multifunctional liquid-crystal display screens, while the HOTAS (hands on throttle-and-stick) system allows the pilot to manage all the weapons systems without taking their hands off the aircraft and engine controls.
> *
> 
> *Vectored-thrust engines make the plane much more maneuverable, increasing its chances of winning in close combat and avoiding longrange missile fire.*
> 
> *The fact that a two-seat version - the MiG-35D - is available, with the same kind of avionics as the singleseater, means that groups consisting of one- and two-seater aircraft can be formed, which are capable of carrying out highly complicated missions. In such formations the two-seaters become command planes, coordinating the moves of a flight or squadron.
> *
> 
> 
> *Boeing meanwhile ...*
> 
> 
> Unlike Russia, which decided not to put its MiG-35 on display in Bangalore, *the United States has stepped up its activity and unveiled the latest version of the F/A-18, or the Silent Hornet, upscaled with stealth technology.*
> 
> *These warplanes are kitted out with conformal fuel tanks, enhanced performance engines, spherical missile laser warning (SM/LW), enclosed weapons pads and next generation cockpits complete with internal infrared search and tracking systems
> *
> 
> *The aircraft on display at the show is the first to be developed as part of the International Super Hornet Roadmap program, which Boeing announced at the Farnborough air show last year. The fighter is being touted as a new generation in the Super Hornet family, which will feature improved combat survivability, situational awareness and performance for customers.
> 
> Boeing&#8217;s vice president Vivek Lall said that if India signs a contract with Boeing under the MMRCA tender it will be able to obtain this technology. &#8220;We are creating a platform which will be combat worthy for the next 30 or 40 years,&#8221; he said.
> *
> 
> This announcement is unprecedented for an American company - until now only the United States&#8217; closest allies have been granted full access to this kind of technology. All the others had to make do with what they were sold.
> 
> 
> *Tender results are expected to be announced this summer. They are particularly important for the MiG: should the MiG-35 fail to get an export order, Sukhoi aircraft will be left in a position of unassailable dominance on Russia&#8217;s combat aviation market.
> *
> 
> Despite the unquestioned potential of Sukhoi platforms and their proven quality, such a monopoly is unlikely to be helpful.
> 
> ..:: India Strategic ::.. Air Force: Will Russia&#8217;s MiG abandon the Indian race?


 
Due to the apparent Russian origin of this article it seems to over play the Mig 35's chances and capabilities. The fact is the Mig 35 was/is always the dark horse and outside player. The writer seems to see the MMRCA as a two horse race (maybe looking through the world still through the cold war view- Russia VS USA) but in fact the EFT and Rafele have much better chances than the Mig. It seems that instead of questioning whether the Mig 35 will pull out, the article is trying to rejuvenate its chances!


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## luckyyy

SpArK said:


> *Fundamentally, the only thing the MiG-35 shares with the previous MiG-29 family is its appearance. Its equipment and facilities have undergone a radical overhaul.*


 
that's the main point !!

The MiG-35s advantages include Indias experience of MiG-29s and the fact that maintenance infrastructure for them is in place across the country, 
also lets not over look the automation proccess of menufecturing US planes , which going to cost a hell to HAL to bought all those automatic machines from US..


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## sudhir007

Eurofighter consortium desperate to have India has a new Partner | idrw.org

Purchase of 126 fighter jet under MMRCA deal by Indian air force is very closely monitored by Eurofighter consortium, which desperately wants the deal to go through, Eurofighter consortium has already chucked out plans to make India Production base for Eurofighter aircrafts and also use local Public and Private sector industries to source spares supplies for its Consortium member air force and its export customers.

Consortium members are currently struggling to maintain proper supply of spares to the fleet of Eurofighter currently operated by their air force, Budget cuts in Royal air force has already forced them to delay upgrades to their earlier batches of the Eurofighter fleet which have limited Strike Capability. Consortium is struggling to upgrade older variants and higher operating cost and spares has been much criticised in their national media.

Experts have added in British media that &#8220;India&#8217;s participation will help fund future upgrades to the aircraft and source spares at lower cost&#8221;, Eurofighter consortium is ready to transfer high value defence R&D to India and wants to co-develop and co-produce future upgrades and enhancements, new sub-systems, software, etc.

HAL is already started recruiting engineers and support staff to enable them to start producing aircrafts after the winners are announced and key tools and technology are passed on to them for local production , Hal is already building the production house which will manufacture this aircrafts under its complex in Bangalore. Under MMRCA Tender more than 20,000 high skilled jobs will be created.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## desimorty

QSR
requirment AESA and Supercruise.
Mig-35, fail.


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## luckyyy

jatt said:


> QSR
> requirment AESA and Supercruise.
> Mig-35, fail.


 
but , The MAPO-MiG enterprise claims the new fighter(MIG-35) would be able to outperform the F-22 Raptor..


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## elite

luckyyy said:


> but , The MAPO-MiG enterprise claims the new fighter(MIG-35) would be able to outperform the F-22 Raptor..


 
yeah.....may someday after 20-30 years......


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## hembo

25 APR, 2011, 04.06PM IST,IANS 
*Antony warns defence top brass against graft in deals*

NEW DELHI: With major deals including the $10.4-billion tender for 126 combat planes tender in its final stages, Defence Minister A.K. Antony Monday warned the armed forces' top brass not to "fall prey to corrupt practices by vested interests". 

Inaugurating separate commanders' conferences of the air force and the army here, Antony also asked them to strive for probity and fair play in their day-to-day dealings.

"Time and cost overruns apart, there is always the danger of falling prey to corrupt practices perpetrated by vested interests in the garb of aggressive marketing. I strongly urge you all to stand guard with resolve against any such overtures. You must strive to uphold sincerity, probity and fair play, even in your day-to-day administrative work," Antony told the army commanders here. 

"At times, vested interests bring about unnecessary pressure and resort to corrupt practices that can wreak serious havoc upon our security in more ways than one. We must resist such efforts collectively and resolutely in national interests," Antony said at the air force commanders meet. 

"Even though I have full faith in your capacity and ability to uphold our security interests, I strongly urge you to remain vigilant, cautious and alert to any wrongdoing at all times," he added. 

His comments come even as the defence ministry is on the verge of finalising the deal for 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) in which American firms Boeing's F/A-18 and Lockheed Martin's F-16s, Russian United Aircraft Corporation's MiG-35, French Dassault's Rafale, Swedish SAAB's Gripen and European consortium EADS' Eurofighter Typhoon are in contention. 

The government is also to soon decide the winner of a $650-million tender for 22 attack helicopters and a $700-million bid for 15 heavy-lift cargo helicopters. 

The MMRCA tender process was threatened early this year after the file containing the offsets proposals of competing firms had gone missing when a bureaucrat was taking it home in the capital and was recovered later by the roadside in south Delhi. 

A probe ordered into the episode had rapped the bureaucrat, but concluded that the incident had not compromised the tendering process, thus facilitating its continuance. 

At the two conferences, Antony also gave a bird's eye view of the global security scenario, pointing out that the political disturbances in West Asia and North Africa had thrown up fresh challenges. 

"Any adverse developments will without doubt have a far reaching effect on the energy security and overall security of the nations across the world," he said. 

The defence minister said the government remained fully committed to the modernisation of the armed forces and upgrading of infrastructure. 

"For far too long, we have remained over-dependent on foreign equipment. No nation will ever part with its first generation equipment," he said, adding that modernisation and indigenisation must proceed apace. 

"If our efforts to achieve self-reliance are to assume greater relevance, our soldiers, scientists and the defence industry must regularly consult each other -- at every stage of designing, manufacturing and production of equipment to minimize procedural delays and understand each other's requirements," he added.


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## Shastra

Mig-35 has the least presence in the competition


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## sancho

kingdurgaking said:


> so you mean to say it is given only as option not as configuration.. do you have any source to back... because lot of source says it is a configuration.. how can a customer deny a configuration.. though he can drop the option..



Then why don't you post them? In fact even Boeing says that only a demo version was tested so far, to clear the base techs of this upgrade (Boeing Briefing from Aero India, Page 14):[/QUOTE]




>  *Two demonstrator engine tests* in 2004 & 2006
> third test in 2010
>  Validation of F414 EPE technologies is complete



http://www.boeing.com/AeroIndia2011/pdf/Aero_India_Super_Hornet_Briefing.pdf




> The international growth road map is *a menu of options* available individually to increase the capability and survivability of the Super Hornet.



And here is the official press release of Boeing, to their reply on the MMRCA RFP in 2008:

Boeing: Boeing Delivers Proposal to Equip Indian Air Force with Super Hornet Fighters

Do you see anything about the EPE, or at least an offer of a higher thrust engine?
As long as no test version is available for flight trials, which requires fundings for R&D as well the integration into the fighter, it is nothing more than an option like all these "Silent Hornet" options, or the M88-3, or the EJ 230 engine.




kingdurgaking said:


> there is no logic in me denying ...



The fact that the SH is the only fighter that has no new, or higher thrust engine available in the trials, or that the SH is the only fighter that really needs more thrust.
You can also turn it around if you want, if all the other fighters fielded new engines, or have better TWRs anyway, why should the offer a higher thrust engine in the last minute?
Any logical answer to this?


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## Dazzler

Silent Hornet seems most likely candidate to me, but Indians must look how things go when you engage US for defense equipment. We have learned this a hard way. Just an opinion.


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## sancho

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> That is right we heard from the UAE that the Rafale was under powered, General Alain Silvy confirmed this in an interview. *A new more reliable engine M88 4E *is expected in 2012, we know the M88 suffers from reliability issues, as a matter of fact the M88 experienced technical issues at AeroIndia 2011 it is more than possible the French engine has not impressed the IAF and *the French are now offering a new variant of the M88*.



And that's the problem (for you at least), the new engine they offer is the M88 - 4E, which is the new standard engine of the Rafale F3+ and is an upgrade *for more cost-effectivity, but with the same engine thrust*! That means you completely contradicts yourself here, because the engine is neither meant for more reliability, nor does it offer more thrust!
Your claims about reliability issues are baseless anyway, because just like the Mirage 2000, the Rafale is known for high reliability during missions, which is evident when you check the availability rates in operational service, be it in real wars, or excercises:



> Today, the base has around 25 fully equipped Rafale B/Cs in service with the Provence squadron and a second squadron being raised this year. In two years, the Rafales have performed three overseas deployments &#8212; including one to Spain for the annual NATO Tiger Meet and another to Belgium for the NATO Tactical Leadership Programme. The most talked about excursion has been the deployment of three AdlA aircraft to Dushanbe, Tajikistan to support multinational combat operations as part of Operation Enduring Freedom. The aircraft arrived on March 12, 2007 and amassed more than 750 flight hours.
> 
> The Tajkiistan deployments gave the AdlA practical experience at maintaining and supporting the aircraft far from home. However, the aircraft enjoyed an availability rate of around *90 percent*. This has increased following the Rafale&#8217;s redeployment to Kandahar Airfield in early Feb. 2008 where, according to Adla Rafale Programme Officer Col. François Moussez, "we have an availability of between *90 to 93 percent*."




*Afghanistan: *



> We usually launched two waves per day, one in the morning and one in the afternoon, with mission duration varying from 4h 30min to 6h 30min,&#8221; explains Colonel François Moussez, the French Air Force Rafale Program officer. Despite the austere conditions, &#8220;overall availability has been excellent - *better than 90%* - since the beginning of the deployment, and *we have not cancelled any single mission due to mechanical problems*,&#8221; he says. &#8220;On average, about 50 sorties were flown each month, with each aircraft logging about 80 flying hours per month.




*Excercise with Greek AF:*



> As far as the availability of the Rafale goes, in the duration of 18 sorties, it was proved high (*94%*), while only one flight was delayed and in one more there was a minor technical problem during flight.




*ATLC Exercise in the UAE:*



> he availability rate of the Rafale, which have accumulated 220 flight-hours in 148 missions, while shotting down - virtually meant - not less than 61 hostile fighters, was *97%* for the entire period. And *no missions has been canceled*




*NATO Tigermeet exercise: *



> At the Tiger Meet, our two aircraft achieved *100-percent *availability for the entire week. On the ramp, we demonstrated how the aircraft can be turned around by just one ground crew. The other teams were very impressed by that




And the list goes on and on!

Reliability and quality of techs and spares, is even one of the main points why IAF admire the French fighters, proven by the exellent experience with the Mirage.


----------



## sancho

luckyyy said:


> that's the main point !!
> 
> The MiG-35&#8217;s advantages include India&#8217;s experience of MiG-29s and the fact that maintenance infrastructure for them is in place across the country,
> also lets not over look the automation proccess of menufecturing US planes , which going to cost a hell to HAL to bought all those automatic machines from US..


 
That's why the best choice is one in between, using the advantage of already available logistics, as well experience in operating and producing of parts and techs, but also using the competition to add more capabilities and quality.

The Mig offers the earlier, the western fighters the latter and Rafale offers both!


----------



## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> Then why don't you post them? In fact even Boeing says that only a demo version was tested so far, to clear the base techs of this upgrade (Boeing Briefing from Aero India, Page 14):



My argument is based on this

Dubai 09: Boeing aims to win Indian deal with engine offer



> Paul Oliver, Boeing's senior director for international business development, *confirms* the F414 enhanced performance engine (EPE) *was submitted as part of Boeing's proposal *to win the MMRCA contract.



so yuo mean to say that this guy is lying?.. if you feel he is lying then end of chapter there is no need to continue on this topic further



> http://www.boeing.com/AeroIndia2011/pdf/Aero_India_Super_Hornet_Briefing.pdf
> 
> 
> And here is the official press release of Boeing, to their reply on the MMRCA RFP in 2008:
> 
> Boeing: Boeing Delivers Proposal to Equip Indian Air Force with Super Hornet Fighters
> 
> Do you see anything about the EPE, or at least an offer of a higher thrust engine?
> As long as no test version is available for flight trials, which requires fundings for R&D as well the integration into the fighter, it is nothing more than an option like all these "Silent Hornet" options, or the M88-3, or the EJ 230 engine.



And if you see the link it clearly states 



> Boeing first revealed plans for the Super Hornet engine upgrade last May, but declined at that time to confirm the EPE would be formally offered to the Indian air force.



so the fact it is not in the site is not a big deal... because the proposal and the site page was created at the same time....


> The fact that the SH is the only fighter that has no new, or higher thrust engine available in the trials, or that the SH is the only fighter that really needs more thrust.
> You can also turn it around if you want, if all the other fighters fielded new engines, or have better TWRs anyway, why should the offer a higher thrust engine in the last minute?
> Any logical answer to this?


----------



## sancho

kingdurgaking said:


> My argument is based on this
> 
> so yuo mean to say that this guy is lying?..



You still don't get it, the options can be part of the proposal from the manufacturer, just look at the EF, where most of the new capabilities are options. But that doesn't mean IAF has to accept them for their competition and as the article said, they rejected them before and based their judgment only on those capabilities that can be tested in the trials. So even if GE now would fund the EPE development alone and integrate an engine into the SH, for IAF it is too late and they will not accept it, but as I said, MoD could have a different oppinion.


----------



## dbc

May be the Rafale engines just fail at air shows? Performance anxiety?

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## satishkumarcsc

whoa......his left engine went KAPUT!


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## kingdurgaking

satishkumarcsc said:


> whoa......his left engine went KAPUT!


 
seems a deleberate 1 engine show

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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> You still don't get it, the options can be part of the proposal from the manufacturer, just look at the EF, where most of the new capabilities are options. But that doesn't mean IAF has to accept them for their competition and as the article said, they rejected them before and based their judgment only on those capabilities that can be tested in the trials. So even if GE now would fund the EPE development alone and integrate an engine into the SH, for IAF it is too late and they will not accept it, but as I said, MoD could have a different oppinion.


 
Yeah options can be disposed by IAF... IAF can stand on one leg and say i dont want your $hit product... but you are not taking the whole picture which is my argument.. when IAF sent an RFP.. where they stated TWR be 1.0 but boeing product has a TWR be 0.8 ... so dont you think the prodcut will be reject in day 1 before trials? and it is not logical for Boeing to provide EPE in the proposal as part of configurations.... And i also cant prove that it is given as part of configuration.. but i go only by the news which he clearly mentions it is given as part of proposal and subsequent news confirming it is mandated with EPE for block 2


----------



## dbc

kingdurgaking said:


> seems a deleberate 1 engine show


 
Yes, impressed with the Rafale's ability to complete the performance on one engine. In most cases, flight computer throttle restrictions kick in when the aircraft is supersonic or loaded. I don't recall ever seeing a fully loaded Rafale demo.


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## rudrakx

Combat aircraft deal shortlist to be out soon



> &#8220;The shortlisted candidates for the MMRCA deal would be announced by beginning of May,&#8221; said a sourcefrom the ministry.





> Simultaneously, their proposals for transfer of technology, critical for the rapid development of an Indian capability to build advanced fighters, are also being examined.


----------



## SpArK

*Can The M-MRCA Be Completely Clean? No.​*





If the MMRCA competition was indeed the impulse, Defence Minister AK Antony's warning to the Indian Air Force yesterday, asking them to stay alert against "corrupt practices of vested interests in the garb of aggressive marketing", should have ideally been pointed to the Defence Ministry seeing that the IAF has no work left in the selection process. So if there's been any "corrupt practices" (obviously there's been a lot of aggressive marketing) as far as the IAF is concerned, it's done with. Finito.

Considering that that the six companies in the fray for the Indian fighter deal have all signed integrity pacts with the MoD, I thought it might be useful to list, only for the record, each firm's recent brush with skulduggery. Some of these cases had consequences, some of them remain unresolved, some linger as allegations. But they all point, almost unanimously, to the possibility (not certainty) that each one of the competing firms in the Indian M-MRCA competition, indulged in "corrupt practices in the garb of aggressive marketing" at some point or the other. Maybe in the M-MRCA, maybe not. Ok, let's begin, in alphabetical order, and let's remember that this is by no means an exhaustive list, nor does it indicate complicity/guilt in each case:

*BOEING DEFENSE*: 1. The infamous Darleen Druyun episode, in which the Pentagon bureaucrat helped Boeing during tanker lease negotiations, while getting the company to pony up a post-retirement job opportunity for her and her family. Boeing made her a veep. Both she and Boeing's then CFO Mike Sears served time in prison. 2. In 2002, Boeing was accused of paying Choi Kyu-sun, a former aide to South Korea's President Kim $12-million to ensure that the country ordered F-15s, which Seoul ultimately did.

*DASSAULT AVIATION*: In 2002, as part of the same deal mentioned above, Dassault stood accused of paying a South Korean air force colonel approximately $10,000 for information on the country's F-X fighter competition. The colonel was court martialled, and Dassault hightailed it from South Korea vowing never to do business with the country again.

*EUROFIGHTER*: 1. Allegations of corruption in a deal with Austria. 2. Allegations of slush fund bribery against BAE Systems in the sale of Eurofighters to Saudi Arabia as part of the Al-Salam deal. Compounded by the fact that the UK Serious Frauds Office (SFO) decided to call off investigations in the "wider public interest", so the truth may never be known.

*LOCKHEED-MARTIN*: 1. In 2009, Lockheed's India head reportedly bolted from the country after being found in possession of MMRCA documents that he shouldn't have had access to. Lockheed refuted all the allegations, though the issue wasn't followed up by the Indian MoD. There's a book (I''ve just ordered it) about Lockheed-Martin's practices.

*SAAB*: Saab has faced bribery/corruption charges in connection with the sale of Gripen fighter jets to South Africa, Hungary (through BAE Systems) and Czech Republic.

*UAC / RAC-MiG*: 1. Was embroiled in a bribery scandal in the supply of MiG-27 jets to the Sri Lankan Air Force in 2007. 2. Bribery scandal in the supply of eight MiG-29 jets to the Bangladesh Air Force in 1999.

This list is only illustrative. Enough has happened in the M-MRCA competition so far to suggest that it hasn't been completely kosher.


Livefist: Can The M-MRCA Be Completely Clean? No.


----------



## jha

*IAF Warned Against Aggressive Mkting, Corrupt Vendors*








> In what is indubitably inspired by the recent IAF bribery scandal at Aero India, Indian Defence Minister AK Antony today called upon the top brass of the IAF not to succumb to "corrupt practices indulged by vested interests in the garb of 'aggressive marketing&#8217;", demanding that the IAF "strive for probity and fair play in their day to day dealings". The Minister made the same call to the Army.





> The Minister said, &#8220;Time and cost overruns apart, there is always the danger of falling prey to corrupt practices perpetrated by vested interests in the garb of aggressive marketing. I strongly urge you all to stand guard with resolve against any such overtures. You must strive to uphold sincerity, probity and fair play, even in your day to day administrative work.&#8221;



Livefist: IAF Warned Against Aggressive Mkting, Corrupt Vendors


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## SpArK

Does the vendors just bribe a few officials and can cut the deal??? are they those vulnerable??? sounds ridiculous..


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## conworldus

I wonder how much money India has spent on deciding which plane to buy over 10 years....


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## Abingdonboy

conworldus said:


> I wonder how much money India has spent on deciding which plane to buy over 10 years....


 
I wouldn't say it has cost India (GoI/MoD/IAF) very much at all except for the huge amount of man-hours put in by MoD/IAF officials writing reports and such. But the cost to each individual contender is HUGE literraly in the hundreds of MILLIONS (presentation, advertising, trails, maintenance, logistics etc) each individual competitor paid the costs of their a/c competiting in the MMRCA in the all the trails so these costs alone are massive (fuel, weapons, training etc). Not to mention miscellaneous costs like a slot at *4* Aero Indias (yes, it really has been going on that long!) All of these planes are state of the art and the associated costs of conducting flying and static displays are extensive ( the EFT costs $30-40,000/h of flying time WITHOUT factoring in cost of spent weapons).


----------



## sancho

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> May be the Rafale engines just fail at air shows? Performance anxiety?


 
Or you simply overhyping the issue, while the operational facts clearly says something else, but an interesting video.




Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Yes, impressed with the Rafale's ability to complete the performance on one engine. In most cases, flight computer throttle restrictions kick in when the aircraft is supersonic or loaded. *I don't recall ever seeing a fully loaded Rafale demo*.



At 8:34 you can see a Rafale in deep strike config with 3 x 2000l fuel tanks and 2 x Scalp cruise missiles 







For comparison, other MMRCA fighter demos with heavy strike configs:


----------



## sancho

kingdurgaking said:


> Yeah options can be disposed by IAF... IAF can stand on one leg and say i dont want your $hit product... but you are not taking the whole picture which is my argument.. when IAF sent an RFP.. where they stated TWR be 1.0 but boeing product has a TWR be 0.8 ... so dont you think the prodcut will be reject in day 1 before trials?



Or more logically, because they want ready and proven systems, that can be inducted fast. The fact that the F18SH offers less performance is a downer, but it's only one part of the requirements, in terms of strike capability, AESA radar and combat proven for example it is one of the leading contenders. Also don't forget that even the vendors openly questioned the RFP and that IAF accepted 6 fighters for the competition, that are pretty different and if IAF really knows what they want? We have air superiority fighters like the EF and the Mig, we have a single engine light fighter like the Gripen, while a heavy F18SH is exactly the opposite, we have proven fighters like the teens, or the Rafale, with paper planes like the Gripen NG and the Mig 35. So the RFP was not too demanding to kick competitiors from the start, even now it is expected that 3, or even 4 fighters will be shortlisted, which means fulfills the minimum requirements of IAF. Some are better, some not, but at the end it will be more than just the performance of the fighter that decides who wins.

Just by judging the technical requirements, I would *not* shortlist the EF (for not having AESA and strike capabilities ready in time), Gripen and Mig 35 (for not having final prototypes ready yet).
The teens and the Rafale on the other hand, have AESA in time, are ready and combat proven, which means offers less risks of delays, or operational limitations for the forces. But as I said, these are only parts of the facts that needs to be judged.


----------



## luckyyy

sancho said:


> Just by judging the technical requirements, I would *not* shortlist the EF (for not having AESA and strike capabilities ready in time), Gripen and Mig 35 (for not having final prototypes ready yet).
> The teens and the Rafale on the other hand, have AESA in time, are ready and combat proven, which means offers less risks of delays, or operational limitations for the forces. But as I said, these are only parts of the facts that needs to be judged.


 

A.K. Antony Monday warned the armed forces' top brass not to "fall prey to corrupt practices by vested interests".

and i thing this media/internet propoganda against competiters also comes under corrupt practices by vested interests.


----------



## sancho

I recently searched for older reports of the competition, especially about hints on the real requirements and found the following 2:

*An analysis about the initial MRCA competition*



> *Selection of MRCA for the IAF*
> 
> Air Marshal B K Pandey
> 
> Former C-in-C, Training Command, Indian Air Force
> 
> ...The requirement for the IAF is for a 20-tonne class, multi-role, fourth generation combat aircraft or alternatively, a late third generation airframe with fourth generation avionics and weapon systems. The IAF needs a force mix of long and medium range combat aircraft capable of both strike and air defence roles. The SU30 MKI is under induction to undertake long-range tasks in a strategic sense. *The proposed MRCA would be expected to perform both roles over own airspace and battle areas in a tactical sense...*
> 
> ...*The IAF has the infrastructure and is well trained to absorb higher levels of Russian and French technology*, having operated third generation aircraft from both sources. *The Indian aerospace industry has also accumulated considerable experience in Russian and French technology*. On the other hand, there is complete lack of experience of Swedish technology and the exposure to American equipment is limited. *Induction of aircraft from Swedish or American sources would involve further diversification and enlargement of the IAF inventory, necessitating the development of fresh production and maintenance infrastructure and reorientation of training of technical personnel*. There are other imponderables with American policy, such as transfer of technology and co-production, which would be a prerequisite from the Indian point of view. With regard to price, the Grippen, the F16 and the MiG 29 M would carry a price tag estimated to be between $ 35 and 45 Million, excluding spares and ancillary equipment. The Mirage 2000-5 Mk2 would have a price tag of approximately $ 65 Million, but compared with the MiG 29 M, *would have lower life cycle costs*. Of the four, only the F 16 and the Mirage 2000 have been *tested in actual combat*...
> 
> ...However, the decision makers in the Indian establishment must penetrate the gloss and read the fine print carefully. *Apart from the technological attributes, versatility and operational capability of the machine, they need to bear in mind a number of other important factors such as assurance of long-term logistic support, problems of integration with the IAF inventory, technological gains for the Indian aerospace industry, sanctions and denial regimes, financial implications and the nuances of the political dimension. In the final analysis, the process of selection of the MRCA for the IAF will not only be a techno-military dilemma but a challenging politico-economic exercise as well.*




Security Research Review: Volume 1(3) Selection of MRCA for the IAF - Air Marshall(r) B K Pandey


If we take these points to account, it wasn't really surprising that IAF had favoured the Mirage 2000-5 back then and although the competition has got bigger now, most of these points should still be important!


*This report is about the M - MRCA:*




> *All new MRCA to be purchased from one company
> IAF wants multi-mission, long-range, mid-air refueling capable jets*
> 
> 
> India Strategic had an informative interview session with the Indian Air Force (IAF) Chief of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Fali Homi major, on the eve of the Paris Air Show. This is the first part of the exhaustive interview, aimed at the IAFs Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MRCA) requirement. The 2nd part, on other issues, will be carried in the next edition...
> 
> ...*India Strategic:* There is a rumour that the order for the 126 MRCA could be split into three to make everybody happy due to the link between defence and diplomacy. It does not make sense to us but if it is just a rumour, then it is best set aside. If you are looking at Transfer of Technology (ToT), and meaningful offset advantages, dividing the procurement into three, or even two, suppliers is not going to be practical.
> 
> *ACM Major:* All issues related to procurement are analysed in a comprehensive manner at various levels to ensure that the best option is exercised. *Factors like technology offered, initial cost, life-cycle cost, transfer of technology, and offsets will play a crucial role in the final decision*.
> 
> *India Strategic:* You have a reasonably large choice from among half a dozen types. Kindly spell the broad Air Staff Requirements (ASR) and how are you going to choose one of those magnificent machines? What is the emphasis on?
> 
> *ACM Major:* The Air Staff Requirements are secret documents and cannot be revealed. However, I can assure you that the ASRs are designed to be contemporary and futuristic, and also have a cost-benefit angle.
> 
> *In a generic sense, we want a medium weight, multi role combat aircraft that can undertake air defence, ground attack, maritime attack (anti-ship) and reconnaissance roles with ease.
> 
> We want the aircraft to have adequately long range and endurance to meet our operational requirements. Extension of range through air-to-air refueling is also desired. Ease of maintenance and low life cycle costs would form part of the selection criteria.*



..:: India Strategic ::.. Indian Navy: All new MRCA to be purchased from one company


Both reports are good reads, especially because they don't come from unnamed sources, like we often see!


----------



## sancho

luckyyy said:


> A.K. Antony Monday warned the armed forces' top brass not to "fall prey to corrupt practices by vested interests".
> 
> and i thing this media/internet propoganda against competiters also comes under corrupt practices by vested interests.


 
Which is good, but what has it to do with the technical shortfalls of these fighters?


----------



## luckyyy

sancho said:


> Which is good, but what has it to do with the technical shortfalls of these fighters?


 
IAF has yet not disclosed any technical shortfallsof any fighter in the compition , it's only the blogers and internet posters gunning the speculations every day...


----------



## sancho

luckyyy said:


> IAF has yet not disclosed any technical shortfallsof any fighter in the compition , it's only the blogers and internet posters gunning the speculations every day...


 
They won't do it anyway, but you can see the facts from the official sources of the vendors! EF consortium admitted several times that their AESA will be ready by 2015, if the development is funded, but the companies prefunded it only till last month, so is it just speculation that the EF falls short at here? Same goes for the final prototypes of Mig 35 and Gripen, which still are not available, because both are waiting for a firm order of any customer.
However, I still don't understand the relation to the bribery issue.


----------



## SpArK

*Super Hornet international version testing anticipated
​*
26/04/11


Any decisions about flight testing further variations of the F/A-18E/F will take place in 2012, says Boeing. Wind tunnel testing of the upgraded Super Hornet, *called the International Roadmap version, is anticipated later this year*. Flight testing is contingent on customer interest; thus far no nations have purchased the new version, unveiled last year.


"We have offered in some instances," says Chris Chadwick, president of Boeing Military Aircraft,* "so for example, the enhanced performance engine is baseline in our offer in India, because that aligns with what they want this aircraft to perform.*"





The International Roadmap includes a variety of options, including up-rated engines, panoramic display, conformal fuel tanks and an infrared search and track sensor. The concept was unveiled at the Farnborough airshow last year, and a mock-up displayed at Aero-India in February.

*"I can tell you that a number of potential F-35 customers have asked for information, so that they can make the best decision going forward should they need to go in a different direction," Chadwick says.*
Several Middle Eastern nations are "in various stages of evaluations" of the Super Hornet, Chadwick says. Though Boeing has not released the identities of or features offered to those nations, Qatar, Bahrain and the United Arab Emirates are among the possible buyers in the region.


Super Hornet international version testing anticipated

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----------



## praveen007

Combat aircraft deal shortlist to be out soon

New Delhi: The race for the $
10.6-billion contract for 126
medium multi role combat
aircraft (MMRCA) is going to gain
momentum with *the names of
the shortlisted candidates
expected to be announced by
the first week of May* .
This would follow the
concretisation of offset policy by
the government which will be
released in the next week. The
report of the technical
evaluation tests of the six aircraft
in fray was submitted to the
defence ministry in July last year.
However, since then the deal has
made little progressed even as
Indian Air Force chief Air Chief
Marshal PV Naik asserted in
February that the deal should be
finalized by September.
The ministry sources have told FE
the deal is again gathering steam
with a concrete offset policy to
be in place by April end.
The shortlisted candidates for
the MMRCA deal would be
announced by beginning of
May, said a sourcefrom the
ministry.
Following the announcement the
commercial negotiations for the
contract will begin.
The detailed policy is expected to
concretise the opening of the
civil aviation and internal security
in more certain terms, so that
there will be no room for
confusion. The defence offsets
policy is likely to bring in $10
billion during the 11th Five-Year
Plan period (2007-11).
The changes are likely to
provide invitations to offer
offsets proposals to be issued to
only those vendors who are
validated as technically qualified
by the respective service. The
shortlisted vendor will be invited
for opening of their respective
commercial bids, a source said.
The ministrys Technical
Oversight Committee (ToC) is
currently looking at the offset
proposals submitted by the
contenders for the deal.
Currently, both technical and
commercial offset proposals
need to be submitted by all
vendors competing in a tender.
Under the current policy, ToE
will examine technical offset
proposals, and the commercial
offset proposals submitted as
sealed proposals  will be
opened only when the respective
commercial offer for the vendor
is opened.
According to sources, the
changes are being designed to
help the MMRCA tender
process, which is governed by
the Defence Procurement
Procedure (DPP) 2006 and plans
to seek a legal route for
approval to implement the
revision with retrospective effect.
Simultaneously, their proposals
for transfer of technology,
critical for the rapid
development of an Indian
capability to build advanced
fighters, are also being
examined.


----------



## praveen007

Combat aircraft deal shortlist to be out soon | IAF News: Airforce, Army, Navy, Coast Guard, Space, Missile

Combat aircraft deal shortlist
to be out soon
The Indian Express
The race for the $10.6-billion
contract for 126 medium multi
role combat aircraft (MMRCA) is
going to gain momentum with
the names of the shortlisted
candidates expected to be
announced by the first week of
May.
This would follow the
concretisation of offset policy by
the government which will be
released in the next week. The
report of the technical
evaluation tests of the six aircraft
in fray was submitted to the
defence ministry in July last year.
However, since then the deal has
made little progressed even as
Indian Air Force chief Air Chief
Marshal PV Naik asserted in
February that the deal should be
finalized by September.
The ministry sources have told FE
*the deal is again gathering steam
with a concrete offset policy to
be in place by April end.
&#8220;The shortlisted candidates for
the MMRCA deal would be
announced by beginning of
May,&#8221;* said a sourcefrom the
ministry.
Following the announcement the
commercial negotiations for the
contract will begin.
The detailed policy is expected to
concretise the opening of the
civil aviation and internal security
in more certain terms, so that
there will be no room for
confusion. The defence offsets
policy is likely to bring in $10
billion during the 11th Five-Year
Plan period (2007-11).
&#8220;The changes are likely to
provide invitations to offer
offsets proposals to be issued to
only those vendors who are
validated as technically qualified
by the respective service. The
shortlisted vendor will be invited
for opening of their respective
commercial bids,&#8221; a source said.
The ministry&#8217;s Technical
Oversight Committee (ToC) is
currently looking at the offset
proposals submitted by the
contenders for the deal.
Currently, both technical and
commercial offset proposals
need to be submitted by all
vendors competing in a tender.
Under the current policy, ToE
will examine technical offset
proposals, and the commercial
offset proposals&#8212; submitted as
sealed proposals &#8212; will be
opened only when the respective
commercial offer for the vendor
is opened.
According to sources, the
changes are being designed to
help the MMRCA tender
process, which is governed by
the Defence Procurement
Procedure (DPP) 2006 and plans
to seek a legal route for
approval to implement the
revision with retrospective effect.
Simultaneously, their proposals
for transfer of technology,
critical for the rapid
development of an Indian
capability to build advanced
fighters, are also being
examined.


----------



## duhastmish

*too late but if they increase the number and off the shelf buying . 

the deal might turn out to be OK. *


----------



## jha

http://www.dassault-aviation.com/fi...dacteur/Defence/Rafale/Fox_Three_N_14_UK2.pdf


----------



## kingdurgaking

SpArK said:


> "We have offered in some instances," says Chris Chadwick, president of Boeing Military Aircraft,* "so for example, the enhanced performance engine is baseline in our offer in India, because that aligns with what they want this aircraft to perform.*"


 
seems all the road leads to the same destination on which we are arguing... Hopefully Dassault is not the culprit too... 
though as Indian I am not in support of critical US weapons in the inventory... hopefully MoD does some wise decision


----------



## kingdurgaking

praveen007 said:


> *the deal is again gathering steam with a concrete offset policy to be in place by April end. &#8220;The shortlisted candidates for the MMRCA deal would be announced by beginning of May,&#8221;*


 
So are we expecting some progress in 2 weeks ?


----------



## udiptoghsh

THE WINNER OF THE MMRCA COMPETITION WILL BE EITHER
1.EUROFIGHTER TYPHOON
OR
2.DASSAULT RAFALE
AND THE TOTAL DEAL WORTH WILL BE AROUND 13 BILLION US DOLLARS
THE CONTENDER WHO WINS IT WILL HAVE TO PASS ON THE COMPLETE TECHNOLOGY TRANFER,HAS TO TRAIN INDIAN PILOTS FOR FEW MONTHS,HAS TO SUPPLY ENOUGH SPARE PARTS WHENEVER REQUIRED, HAS TO LICENSE INDIA FOR INDEGINIOUS MAKING OF THE REST OF THE NUMBER OF AIRCRAFTS OTHER THAN THE INTIAL DELIVERY OF NEARLY 20-30 AIRCRAFTS FROM THE WINNING COUNTRY.
THIS WILL ACTUALLY GIVE INDIA THE TOTAL FREEDOM TO KNOW THE TECHNICAL KNOW HOWS OF MAKING THE AIRCRAFT...ND MOST IMPORTANTLY INDIA CAN ALSO INTRODUCE ITS INDIGENIOUSLY MADE AVIONICS,SOFTWARES,RADARS...ND COMPUTER SYSTEMS...WHICH WILL ACTUALLY MAKE THE AIRCRAFT UNPREDICTABLE OF ITS ACTUALL CAPABILITIES TO THE REST OF THE WORLD.....!!!!
THESE CONDITIONS OR CRITERIAS WHICH THE WINNER OF THIS BID HAS TO FULFILL WILL ACTUALLY MAKE THE AIRCRAFTS MORE DEADLY,UNPREDICTABLE,AND MUCH MORE EFFECTIVE IN REAL WAR SITUATION....
*BUT THE ONLY BOTTLENECK IN THIS DEAL IS THE ONGOING PROCUREMENT DELAYS BY MANY INDIAN BEAURACRATS,MINISTRIES...ETC....I URGE THE INDIAN GOVERNMENT TO SEAL THIS DEAL AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE....!!!*


----------



## SpArK

*The M-MRCA In Numbers​*





*As the M-MRCA fighter competition winds down, I thought it would be nice to put it down in numbers. Do comment with your additions.*

6: The number of contending aircraft.

8: The number of competing nations.

126: The number of aircraft the Indian government officially says it wants to buy.

200-220: The number that sundry analysts believe will be the the "real" order size.

$9,500,000,000: The number of dollars (at the current exchange rate) the Indian government has committed to the deal.

$4,750,000,000: The number of dollars (at the current exchange rate) the winning contender will need to plough back into India as offsets.

18: The number of aircraft that will be manufactured by the winning bidder.

108: The number of aircraft that will be cookie-cut under license by HAL at a spanking new facility.

0: What HAL has needed to do to be the license partner in the MMRCA.

3: The number of years it took the government to decide that a competition made more sense than an IAF-recommended purchase of more Mirage-2000s.

4: The number if IAF Air Marshals who openly rue that decision to this day.

4: The number of companies that received the Indian RFI in 2004 (Dassault, Lockheed-Martin, RAC-MiG, Saab).

2: The number of companies that elbowed their way into the competition shortly thereafter (Boeing, Eurofighter).

2 / 1 / 6 / 1 / 0 / 5: The number of air forces that use fly the F/A-18 Super Hornet / Rafale / Typhoon / F-16 Block 60 / MiG-35 / Gripen.

2: The number of contending aircraft with operational AESA radars.

4: The number of contending aircraft that promise to deliver AESA radars better than the American ones.

2: The number of vendors who explicitly state that they will release all avionics/sensor source codes to the IAF as part of any deal.

46: The number of times in 2006-07 that the then IAF chief Shashindra Pal Tyagi was quoted to have said "buying fighters is not like buying vegetables in a market".

242: The number of times Defence Minister AK Antony, in response to questions about the delayed RFP, nodded genially and said, "It is in process".

3: The number of years it took for the government to send out an RFP after receiving information about potential contenders.

211: The number of pages in the RFP that was released in August 2007.

4: The number of defence journalists who claimed to have a copy of the RFP on the day it was released.

0: The number of defence journalists who actually had a copy of the RFP on the day it was released.

(Still counting): The number of times sundry officials from the IAF and MoD have pointed to "front-runners" in the competition.

4: The number of times competing countries have urged abandonment of the tender in favour of a separate exclusive deal. (-- Saurabh Joshi)

10: The number (on a scale of ten) that depicts just how badly IAF chief Pradeep Naik wants the MMRCA contract to be signed before he retires in July this year.

0: The number (on a scale of ten) that depicts the chances of that actually happening.

0: The optimism co-efficient of vendors that the IAF chief's word holds any more sway.

<1: The chances on a scale of 10 of the deal being concluded this calendar year.

22: The number of times the current IAF chief has expressed his pride over the evaluation process, and said he will patent it.

186: The number of times this blog has posted about the competition. Ok, now 187.

~421: The number of misleading leaks, rumours and patent falsehoods that have been deliberately put out by certain officers in the IAF and MoD acquisition wing.

8: The number of times the IAF and MoD have contradicted each other over aspects of the selection process.

112: The number of times the European competitors have described the Americans as "aggressive".

643: The number of test points evaluated on the six aircaft during field trials.

2: The number of years it took for field trials to commence after RFPs had been issued.

7: The number of times Lockheed-Martin took pot shots at the Gripen.

7: The number of times Gripen took pot shots at Lockheed-Martin.

2: The number of fantasy eliminations - Gripen and Rafale - that turned out to be false.

1: The number of times commercial bids have been revised.

10: Chances on a scale of ten that commercial bids will be required to be extended.

11,441: The number of reports about the MMRCA in the mainstream Indian media.

11,441: The number of reports about the MMRCA in the mainstream Indian media that were based largely on speculation.



Livefist: The M-MRCA In Numbers

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## jha

Aroor saab seems to have a lot of time these days..He should concentrate on doing some real work..


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## SpArK

^^^^
8 : number of times jha critisised Shiv Aroor.


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## jha

SpArK said:


> ^^^^
> 8 : number of times jha critisised Shiv Aroor.


 
5: No. of times Sparky defended Aroor..


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## SpArK




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## luckyyy

so , does it between *Gripen *and F-16..!!


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## SpArK

*M-MRCA Commercial Bids Expire Tomorrow, What Now?​*






The sealed commercial bids of the six competitors in the Indian M-MRCA fighter competition expire tomorrow. I spoke to officials at the six competing companies said they hadn't heard from the government, and were clueless about what happened next. So in under 36 hours, one of the following should happen:

1. The government will in all likelihood asks the six vendors to extend the validity of their commercial bids (though it hasn't asked them at least until the time this post goes on). In the first week of April, the government asked the six vendors to submit revised technical offsets bids. Tomorrow at midnight, the bids expire. In the past, requests for extensions have been provided with fair advance notice. This time, it's 36 hours and the vendors still haven't heard from the government. Foreseeing this eventuality, the vendors have probably kept their paperwork ready for the validity extension. Either way, the government can always ask for the extension after the bids expire, so this deadline isn't really a DEAD-line. Phooey.

2. If procedure permits, the government only requests those found technically compliant to extend the validity of their commercial bids for onward negotiations, and allows the others' bids to expire. An implicit down-select if you will.

3. The government announces its legendary explicit down-select -- fat chance of that happening.

4. The government cancels the M-MRCA tender. Yeah, right.

Livefist: M-MRCA Commercial Bids Expire Tomorrow, What Now?


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## Abingdonboy

SpArK said:


> *M-MRCA Commercial Bids Expire Tomorrow, What Now?​*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The sealed commercial bids of the six competitors in the Indian M-MRCA fighter competition expire tomorrow. I spoke to officials at the six competing companies said they hadn't heard from the government, and were clueless about what happened next. So in under 36 hours, one of the following should happen:
> 
> 1. The government will in all likelihood asks the six vendors to extend the validity of their commercial bids (though it hasn't asked them at least until the time this post goes on). In the first week of April, the government asked the six vendors to submit revised technical offsets bids. Tomorrow at midnight, the bids expire. In the past, requests for extensions have been provided with fair advance notice. This time, it's 36 hours and the vendors still haven't heard from the government. Foreseeing this eventuality, the vendors have probably kept their paperwork ready for the validity extension. Either way, the government can always ask for the extension after the bids expire, so this deadline isn't really a DEAD-line. Phooey.
> 
> 2. If procedure permits, the government only requests those found technically compliant to extend the validity of their commercial bids for onward negotiations, and allows the others' bids to expire. An implicit down-select if you will.
> 
> 3. The government announces its legendary explicit down-select -- fat chance of that happening.
> 
> 4. The government cancels the M-MRCA tender. Yeah, right.
> 
> Livefist: M-MRCA Commercial Bids Expire Tomorrow, What Now?


 
One has to ask just WTF is going on at the MoD? What do they think they are doing? Deadline after deadline missed. Is this because they keep underestimating the workload? They are incredibly ineffiecnt at achieving the required work by the deadline?

Maybe this is a smart move by MoD (timing wise) as like Shiv said they can only ask the ones who they want (ie shortlist) to resubmit making it a de facto shortlisting and by the end of the week we will have the coveted MMRCA shortlist! We can only dream (it is strange though with only 36 hours to go that the MoD has not asked the companies to resubmit well in advance as usual, is this just sloppiness on MoD part or something more?). 


Seriously does anyone know what the MoD officials who are assigned to this Competition do all day? The technical bids were submitted many months ago what more needs to be done? And after this let's not forget. That the final chosen plane's com
Any and MoD have to sit down and negotiate final costing and contractual arrangements? Oh joy? India is drowning in paper work and dieing from beauacracy! If the MMRCA wasn't worth so much most of the companies would have pulled out long ago, I dread to think what these officials and other defence officials think of the Indian MoD.


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## Abingdonboy

Don't know if it has been posted before and not the Gripen is NOT my choice for MMRCA but this is an awesome pic/layout:




http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xE...IHE/Ksmm-siojRU/s1600-h/GripenIN__Concept.jpg

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## SpArK

LATEST BLOG: POLL: Make your shortlist for India's next fighter 


POLL: Make your shortlist for India's next fighter - The DEW Line


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## sancho

kingdurgaking said:


> seems all the road leads to the same destination on which we are arguing... Hopefully Dassault is not the culprit too...


 
I find these parts more interesting:



> *Flight testing is contingent on customer interest; thus far no nations have purchased the new version, unveiled last year.*...
> 
> ...*The International Roadmap includes a variety of options, including up-rated engines*, panoramic display, conformal fuel tanks and an infrared search and track sensor. *The concept was unveiled* at the Farnborough airshow *last year*, and a mock-up displayed at Aero-India in February.



Just options that they offer, but that are not funded, available, or tested yet. Compare it with the future options of the F16 for example:



> *Future Options*
> 
> See Current Options
> 
> The following systems *could be integrated* on the F-16. Many have already been demonstrated.
> 
> ** Air Refueling Probe
> This probe provides in-flight refueling from a drogue system. Options include a telescoping probe from a wing fuel tank.*
> 
> * Auxiliary Power Unit
> This power unit replaces the jet fuel starter and ground electrical and hydraulics carts.
> 
> * On-Board Inert Gas Generation System (OBIGGS)
> OBIGGS eliminates halon and nitrogen servicing requirements.
> 
> ** Multiaxis Thrust Vectoring
> This type of vectoring provides precise control and high nose-pointing rates at low air speeds*
> 
> * In-Flight Route Planning
> Using in-flight route planning, pilots are provided with dynamic flight direction for best avoidance of threats.
> 
> * Perspective Displays
> These displays provide the pilot with a visual refresher that improves first-run attack success probability.
> 
> * Embedded Training
> This enhanced peacetime training uses realistic simulated threats and targets.
> 
> * Auto Ground Collision Avoidance System
> An integrated digital terrain system with digital flight control, this system enhances low-altitude safety.
> 
> * Automatic Maneuvering Attack
> This provides integrated fire and flight control for reduced pilot work load.
> 
> * Microwave Landing System
> This system provides curvilinear precision instrument approach capability.
> 
> ** Missile Warning System
> This system provides warning of approaching missiles, including passive homing missiles, for proper timing of countermeasures.*
> 
> * All-Weather Standoff Weapons
> Weapons used include the AGM-84E Standoff Land-Attack Missile (SLAM) and the AGM-142 Popeye II.
> 
> * International Advanced Weapons
> Advanced weapons include MICA, IRIS-T, Python IV, Active Skyflash air-to-air missile, ALARM antiradiation missile, Apache multimission standoff weapon, autonomous free-flight dispenser system, and AS30L laser-guided missile.




Future Options


Doesn't the F16 looks much better with them?

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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> Don't know if it has been posted before and not the Gripen is NOT my choice for MMRCA but this is an awesome pic/layout:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GripenIN__Concept.jpg (image)


 
Would love to see such layouts from LCA for comparison!

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## SpArK

*India selects EF, Rafale for MMRCA shortlist​*
*The Indian Ministry of Defense has issued letters, on Wednesday, to two of the six vendors competing in the estimated USD 10 billion Indian Air Force (IAF) tender for 126 Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA), asking them to extend the validity of their commercial bids, which will expire on Thursday, tomorrow*.

*StratPost can confirm that the European Eurofighter Typhoon consortium and the French Dassault&#8217;s Rafale have been invited to do so, effectively making up the shortlist.*

StratPost can also confirm that according to the IAF and the ministry, the other aircraft in the fray, the US Boeing&#8217;s F/A-18 Super Hornet, the US Lockheed Martin Corporation&#8217;s F-16, the Russian MiG-35 and the Swedish SAAB&#8217;s Gripen did not pass the technical evaluation conducted by the IAF.

It is noteworthy that this comes just a day before the commercial bids of all six vendors were to expire.

It would not be unsurprising if this move by the ministry and it&#8217;s coincidentally sharp timing were to raise the hackles of the spurned vendors. Industry insiders are already expecting to see a robust response from these vendors and their countries of origin, at least in private, to this decision.

One question some of the vendors losing out are already asking is why the ministry asked all the vendors to resubmit their offset proposals early this month if they already knew the outcome of the technical evaluation submitted by the IAF last summer, and waited till a day before the expiry of the commercial bids to effectively announce a shortlist by inviting extension of commercial bids from only two vendors.

The commercial bids of the other four vendors will lapse on Thursday, tomorrow.

Something else the uninvited vendors are ready to question is the basis for judging technical compliance, with robust speculation that none of the MMRCA-6 aircraft were actually completely compliant with the IAF&#8217;s 643 parameters listed in the Air Staff Qualitative Requirements (ASQRs) for the tender.


India selects EF, Rafale for MMRCA shortlist


WTF????

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## foxbat

SpArK said:


> *India selects EF, Rafale for MMRCA shortlist​*
> *The Indian Ministry of Defense has issued letters, on Wednesday, to two of the six vendors competing in the estimated USD 10 billion Indian Air Force (IAF) tender for 126 Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA), asking them to extend the validity of their commercial bids, which will expire on Thursday, tomorrow*.
> 
> *StratPost can confirm that the European Eurofighter Typhoon consortium and the French Dassaults Rafale have been invited to do so, effectively making up the shortlist.*
> 
> StratPost can also confirm that according to the IAF and the ministry, the other aircraft in the fray, the US Boeings F/A-18 Super Hornet, the US Lockheed Martin Corporations F-16, the Russian MiG-35 and the Swedish SAABs Gripen did not pass the technical evaluation conducted by the IAF.
> 
> It is noteworthy that this comes just a day before the commercial bids of all six vendors were to expire.
> 
> It would not be unsurprising if this move by the ministry and its coincidentally sharp timing were to raise the hackles of the spurned vendors. Industry insiders are already expecting to see a robust response from these vendors and their countries of origin, at least in private, to this decision.
> 
> One question some of the vendors losing out are already asking is why the ministry asked all the vendors to resubmit their offset proposals early this month if they already knew the outcome of the technical evaluation submitted by the IAF last summer, and waited till a day before the expiry of the commercial bids to effectively announce a shortlist by inviting extension of commercial bids from only two vendors.
> 
> The commercial bids of the other four vendors will lapse on Thursday, tomorrow.
> 
> Something else the uninvited vendors are ready to question is the basis for judging technical compliance, with robust speculation that none of the MMRCA-6 aircraft were actually completely compliant with the IAFs 643 parameters listed in the Air Staff Qualitative Requirements (ASQRs) for the tender.
> 
> 
> India selects EF, Rafale for MMRCA shortlist
> 
> 
> WTF????


 
HUH???????????????


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## GORKHALI

SpArK said:


> *India selects EF, Rafale for MMRCA shortlist​*
> *The Indian Ministry of Defense has issued letters, on Wednesday, to two of the six vendors competing in the estimated USD 10 billion Indian Air Force (IAF) tender for 126 Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA), asking them to extend the validity of their commercial bids, which will expire on Thursday, tomorrow*.
> 
> *StratPost can confirm that the European Eurofighter Typhoon consortium and the French Dassault&#8217;s Rafale have been invited to do so, effectively making up the shortlist.*
> 
> StratPost can also confirm that according to the IAF and the ministry, the other aircraft in the fray, the US Boeing&#8217;s F/A-18 Super Hornet, the US Lockheed Martin Corporation&#8217;s F-16, the Russian MiG-35 and the Swedish SAAB&#8217;s Gripen did not pass the technical evaluation conducted by the IAF.
> 
> It is noteworthy that this comes just a day before the commercial bids of all six vendors were to expire.
> 
> It would not be unsurprising if this move by the ministry and it&#8217;s coincidentally sharp timing were to raise the hackles of the spurned vendors. Industry insiders are already expecting to see a robust response from these vendors and their countries of origin, at least in private, to this decision.
> 
> One question some of the vendors losing out are already asking is why the ministry asked all the vendors to resubmit their offset proposals early this month if they already knew the outcome of the technical evaluation submitted by the IAF last summer, and waited till a day before the expiry of the commercial bids to effectively announce a shortlist by inviting extension of commercial bids from only two vendors.
> 
> The commercial bids of the other four vendors will lapse on Thursday, tomorrow.
> 
> Something else the uninvited vendors are ready to question is the basis for judging technical compliance, with robust speculation that none of the MMRCA-6 aircraft were actually completely compliant with the IAF&#8217;s 643 parameters listed in the Air Staff Qualitative Requirements (ASQRs) for the tender.
> 
> 
> India selects EF, Rafale for MMRCA shortlist
> 
> 
> WTF????


 
*Thats true!!!!!!!!!!!!!*

I told this 5 months back ........... atleast go for something

---------- Post added at 08:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:06 PM ----------

MAKE IT HEADLINES SPARKY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Lord Of Gondor

Is this news credible?If yes then it's INcredible!Mr.Anyony FTW........................!!


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## angeldemon_007

Wow....its a huge news....but is it authentic ??/ It looks like the 6 month old news....but i hope this time its true...


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## anathema

Livefist: FLASH! Rafale & Typhoon Move To Next Level In M-MRCA, Others Left Behind


LIVEFIST is reporting it .......but expect this to be false news ....BOEING, GRIPEN, etc will soon come out saying that MoD has already contacted them.....even if this were true, good possibility is that the 'bids' will be scuttlet by those who didnt make it.....Anthony the saint that he is , will entertain this BS

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## Shastra

"4: The number of defence journalists who claimed to have a copy of the RFP on the day it was released.

0: The number of defence journalists who actually had a copy of the RFP on the day it was released."

LOL....


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## Shastra

India selects EF, Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

I hope this news is authentic...


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## sancho

> *Eurofighter, Rafale make Indian MMRCA shortlist?*
> 
> Eurofighter, Rafale make Indian MMRCA shortlist?
> 
> Defense World ^ | Apr 27, 2011
> 
> Our Bureau
> 
> Has India downselected Eurofighter Typhoon and the Dassault Rafale for the $ 10 billion MMRCA fighter aircraft procurement project. Informed sources told defenseworld.net that two of the vendors, Eurofighter and Dassault have been invited to the Indian MoD for further discussions on their commercial bids on April 28. The commercial bids are to expire tomorrow.
> 
> None of the other four bidding vendors have been invited so far for a discussion on the continuation of their bids, the sources said. Defenseworld.net reached two of the four vendors who confirmed that they have not received any communication on continuing or resubmitting their bids.
> 
> Does this mean that the two vendors have made the shortlist and the other four- Lockheed Martin F16, Boeing F/A 18, MiG-35 and Saab Gripen IN have been left out? A website reported that the four have failed the technical evaluation of the Indian Air Force (IAF) but this could be independently confirmed.
> 
> Informed sources said that an official announcement is likely on April 28 or 29 after the final shortlist is announced. If Eurofighter and Dassault have indeed made the shortlist, it means that the two have made passed the technical evaluation of the IAF. Under the Indian system of procurement, the top two qualifying vendors will be invited for commercial negotiations and the one which offers the best terms (lowest price) will be eventually selected.
> 
> In informal discussions with defenseworld.net earlier, executives of Eurofighter and Dassault were bullish on their bids stating that the performance superiority of the two European fighters had weighted over the other vendors in the flight trials and technical evaluation.




Wait and see


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## sancho

*First official statement!*



> *Gripen not on the shortlist for the Indian MMRCA programme*
> 
> 27 April 2011, in Press Release
> 
> Today defence and security company Saab AB has received information from the Indian Ministry of Defence that Gripen has not been shortlisted for the Indian Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) programme.
> &#8221;We are offering India a world class next generation fighter aircraft to a very competitive price and an extensive technology transfer programme. We have received this decision and will closely monitor the future process and provide additional information if requested by the Indian Ministry of Defence. We are confident that the Gripen system is the perfect match for the Indian Air Force as well as meeting the highest requirements for the international markets,&#8221; says Håkan Buskhe, President and CEO at Saab...



Gripen not on the shortlist for the Indian MMRCA programme


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## the rafter

Yet another confirmation news.....

*Govt shortlists Eurofighter, Rafale for fighter jets: Sources*

New Delhi: The Defence Ministry has shortlisted Eurofighter Typhoon and Dassault Rafale from among six competitors participating in the $10.5-billion tender to provide the Indian Air Force with Medium Multi-role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA), say sources.

The Dassault and the Eurofighter, according to sources, are the only participants asked to extend the validity of their commercial bids and have been called to the Defence Ministry on Thursday, the sources add.

Sources also say that the other competitors - Boeing F/A-18, Lockheed-Martin's F-16, UAC's MiG-35 and Saab's Gripen - haven't received a message or a letter.

The MMRCA deal is meant to provide the Indian Air Force with approximately 126 new state-of-the-art fighter aircraft.


----------



## the rafter

*Sky Talk: Reports that India has dropped F-16 from fighter competition*

Reports out of India today indicate that country's government has narrowed down the list of planes it is considering buying as the next next front line fighter jet and that both Lockheed Martin's F-16 and the Boeing F/A-18 Super Hornet have been eliminated from the competition.

If that is the case it could mean the days of the F-16 being produced in Fort Worth are nearing an end. Company officials said in their conference call Tuesday they only have orders booked to carry production through mid-2013.

The very good DewLine blog has more here. About the only thing official on the subject at this point is that Sweden's Saab has confirmed that it has been eliminated. But one blog reports it has confirmed that India has asked two bidders, France's Dassault and the European Eurofighter consortium to extend the terms of their bids.

Lockheed has not yet commented to the Star-Telegram. A Boeing spokesman said he had not heard anything official from his corporate ranks.

But Washington defense analyst Loren Thompson, who has many good sources in the world of defense contractors, said he has heard similar but unofficial reports.

*"My understanding is the F-16 and F/A-18 have both been disqualified by India," Thompson said. "It may just be a negotiating tactic. They've (India) done stuff like this before."*

India has for years been tantalizing fighter jet manufacturers with its plans to spend something on the order of $10 billion to buy 126 Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft.

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## SpArK




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## sancho

the rafter said:


> *"My understanding is the F-16 and F/A-18 have both been disqualified by India," Thompson said. "It may just be a negotiating tactic. They've (India) done stuff like this before."*
> 
> India has for years been tantalizing fighter jet manufacturers with its plans to spend something on the order of $10 billion to buy 126 Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft.


 
Interesting! If so, what were the reasons and why negotiating tactics? If they were disqualified, I doubt they will re-enter the tender again.


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## the rafter

I too don't think if they are eliminated they would be allowed to re-enter. Here's the up-date:



> UPDATE: Loren Thompson of the Lexington Institute think tank and a consultant to both Boeing and Lockheed Martin says he has been told by a senior company officials that both the F/A-18 and F-16 have been dropped from consideration by India.
> 
> And here's Lockheed's not very informative but perhaps telling statement: "The US Government has informed Lockheed Martin that they have received a letter from the Indian MOD concerning the MMRCA competition. We understand that the US Government is working on a response to the letter from the Indian government. Lockheed Martin remains committed to our relationship with the Indian Air Force, Ministry of Defense and the other Services. Lockheed Martin has several world-class products offering the most advanced and reliable technology we believe is suitable for India's security needs."



http://blogs.star-telegram.com/sky_...as-dropped-f-16-from-fighter-competition.html


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## angeldemon_007

Despite Obama's push IAF reject F-16- TIMESNOW.tv - Latest Breaking News, Big News Stories, News Videos


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## Jon Snow

India says no to US fighter planes - Hindustan Times

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## sancho

*US, Russia out of IAF MMRCA fighter deal * (Video)

[video]http://ibnlive.in.com/videos/150614/us-firms-out-of-mmrca-fighter-deal.html[/video]


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## jdme

US rejection makes sense. We hardly have any American weapons and we are already stretched thin with way too many platforms. Dropping Russia was bad but then Russians have been extremely unreliable in last decade or so. I don't know much about EF or Rafael but looks like French might win big.


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## luckyyy

india had been licence menufecturing the fighter planes since 1970..

india has been in the buyer-seller relation for long..

and the Rafale won't offer anything beyond that...

next step , it's time to have equal share in the menufecturing like the way india initiating with FGFA , 

the way Eurofighter offers partnership in the project, Eurofighter should be selected...


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## foxbat

Is there any commonality between Mirage 2000 and Rafale from a maintenance perspective??


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## sancho

luckyyy said:


> india had been licence menufecturing the fighter planes since 1970..
> 
> india has been in the buyer-seller relation for long..
> 
> and the Rafale won't offer anything beyond that...
> 
> next step , it's time to have equal share in the menufecturing like the way india initiating with FGFA ,
> 
> the way Eurofighter offers partnership in the project, Eurofighter should be selected...


 

Although it's not clear what Dassault offers to India in terms of partnerships, we do know about RBE 2 AESA on offer as a base for a co-developed AESA for Tejas, or the Kaveri - Snecma engine co-development for Tejas, AMCA and also on offer for integration into Rafale. French MBDA proposed co-developments on the weapon side and Maitri SAM seems to be the first one. Thales has JV with Samtel for Topsight I HMS and MFDs, so there is a lot that we can get from Rafale. More importantly could be a team up with Dassault for AURA UCAV, which dramatically would boost our UAV developments as well. 




foxbat said:


> Is there any commonality between Mirage 2000 and Rafale from a maintenance perspective??


 

Yes, nearly the whole weapon package, avionics and most of the maintenance routines of Rafale are based on the Mirage as well, which makes it easier for the ground crews as well.


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## luckyyy

sancho said:


> Although it's not clear what Dassault offers to India in terms of partnerships, we do know about RBE 2 AESA on offer as a base for a co-developed AESA for Tejas, or the Kaveri - Snecma engine co-development for Tejas, AMCA and also on offer for integration into Rafale. French MBDA proposed co-developments on the weapon side and Maitri SAM seems to be the first one. Thales has JV with Samtel for Topsight I HMS and MFDs, so there is a lot that we can get from Rafale. More importantly could be a team up with Dassault for AURA UCAV, which dramatically would boost our UAV developments as well.


 
these were the words we keep getting since many years from french...

but on ground reality it is the EADS actually working with the indians...

but in a reguler bidding Rafale has a higher chance of winning as EF is more expensive on intial cost as well as maintanence cost , adding to a higher life cycle cost....but if the cost negotiating commete takes the equity swap amount into account on partnership offer from EF ,then the EF will became the L1 bidder...


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## Manticore

@sancho

some questions..dont know if these questions are a bit early

have they given the date of the final announcement out of the two?
will the production lines in india be updated or their'll be partial production in both countries
whats the tentative date of actual first fighter production
whats the tentative date of actual first squadron induction
when will the training /conversion of pilots start
difference in design features that standout interms of aerodynamic performance 
difference in electronic/avionics suite that stand out b/w these 2 fighters

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## sancho

luckyyy said:


> these were the words we keep getting since many years from french...
> 
> *but on ground reality it is the EADS actually working with the indians...*
> but in a reguler bidding Rafale has a higher chance of winning as EF is more expensive on intial cost as well as maintanence cost , adding to a higher life cycle cost....but if the cost negotiating commete takes the equity swap amount into account on partnership offer from EF ,then the EF will became the L1 bidder...


 
And EADS is? Exactly, half French and even the French government has shares!




ANTIBODY said:


> @sancho
> 
> some questions..dont know if these questions are a bit early
> 
> have they given the date of the final announcement out of the two?
> will the production lines in india be updated or their'll be partial production in both countries
> whats the tentative date of actual first fighter production
> whats the tentative date of actual first squadron induction
> when will the training /conversion of pilots start
> difference in design features that standout interms of aerodynamic performance
> difference in electronic/avionics suite that stand out b/w these 2 fighters



Hi, there is no official statement from the GoI, or MoD AFAIK, maybe because there are still negotiations behind closed doors. There were reports that the US government will reply to the shortlisting, so who knows if that will change things again, but I am surprised that the F18SH wasn't shortlisted at least to have more options to bargain with the Europeans.
According the RFP, only 18 fighters will be delivered by the wining vendor, while the rest must be produced in India. However, it is possible that the order could be increased, which could increase the number of fighters from Europe as well.
The first squadron is said to be inducted in 2014, while licence production should start in 2015. If Rafale would win, both could start earlier, because it will be ready and available since next year and Dassault offered fast production of up to 40 fighters if we want and the training is dependent on these dates.
The design of both will remain the same, unless we don't integrate CFTs, which both have on offer. At the electronic and avionic fields things will be different, because they will have AESA, latest passive detection features and EW systems (SPECTRA is clearly in front here), HMS cleared for EF and optional for Rafale, also both are expected to get METEOR BVR missile, as well as new A2G weaponary and here the Storm Shadow / Scalp cruise missile should be the most important weapon!

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## tushar

> but in a reguler bidding Rafale has a higher chance of winning as EF is more expensive on intial cost as well as maintanence cost , adding to a higher life cycle cost....but if the cost negotiating commete takes the equity swap amount into account on partnership offer from EF ,then the EF will became the L1 bidder...


Yeah its true but i think if we could manage a somewhat similar deal with french it would be far more superior for us....
Rafale cost way too less than EF

We don't have to spend too much on infrastructure and training of ground crew and maintenance...

The above two points will definitely reduce the operating cost....

PLus ToT and source code availability technically place Rafale way ahead of typhoon...

Now with both its sure that we will something around 5 billion$ return in the form of offsets....but the advantage with EF is that our companies will continue to produce those components even for future tenders of EF while in case of Rafale our companies will produce components for our deal only...

Now its true that our companies will definitely benefit through EF deal for long term but its a huge gamble as due to high cost further sale of EF is in dark...what if EF couldn't bag any more deal after MMRCA ??

On the other hand we can use this option to bargain with France although France has already said that this won't just be buyer seller deal...lets hope we could get similar deal with rafale because if selected in MMRCA,Rafale will definitely make through Brazilian tender....



> More importantly could be a team up with Dassault for AURA UCAV, which dramatically would boost our UAV developments as well.


Dassault has already said that they will help in whatever way India wants them to help when RFI was issued last year for UCAV but our government will have to approach...but yeah we can't be part of Neuron project but we can purchase them...


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## udiptoghsh

SpArK said:


> *M-MRCA Commercial Bids Expire Tomorrow, What Now?​*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The sealed commercial bids of the six competitors in the Indian M-MRCA fighter competition expire tomorrow. I spoke to officials at the six competing companies said they hadn't heard from the government, and were clueless about what happened next. So in under 36 hours, one of the following should happen:
> 
> 1. The government will in all likelihood asks the six vendors to extend the validity of their commercial bids (though it hasn't asked them at least until the time this post goes on). In the first week of April, the government asked the six vendors to submit revised technical offsets bids. Tomorrow at midnight, the bids expire. In the past, requests for extensions have been provided with fair advance notice. This time, it's 36 hours and the vendors still haven't heard from the government. Foreseeing this eventuality, the vendors have probably kept their paperwork ready for the validity extension. Either way, the government can always ask for the extension after the bids expire, so this deadline isn't really a DEAD-line. Phooey.
> 
> 2. If procedure permits, the government only requests those found technically compliant to extend the validity of their commercial bids for onward negotiations, and allows the others' bids to expire. An implicit down-select if you will.
> 
> 3. The government announces its legendary explicit down-select -- fat chance of that happening.
> 
> 4. The government cancels the M-MRCA tender. Yeah, right.
> 
> Livefist: M-MRCA Commercial Bids Expire Tomorrow, What Now?


 
it surely is a news of great concern..and thanks a lot SPARK for bringing the issue up infront of us...they deal has already been through an extreme long process...due to the lathargic work by the MoD...and many other beaurcratic peoples in india....!!!
1.BUT THE GOOD NEWZZ IS THAT...MMRCA COMPETITION...IS IN ITS LAST PHASE...AND THE ONLY THING LEFT TO EVALUTE IS THE LOWEST BIDDER AMONG THE TOP TWO COMPETITORS WHO ARE LEFT IN THE COMPETION..EUROFIGHTER TYPHOON....AND DASSAULT RAFALE.
2.THE WINNER THATS GONNA WIN WILL DEFINATELY BE THE BEST 4.5TH GENERATION FIGHTER..IN THE WORLD TODAY...CAUSE EVERY COMPETITORS HAD BEEN EVALUATED IN 600 DIFFERENT CONDITIONS..WAYS...WAR LIKE SITUATIONS...ETC...(which takes hell lot of time
)AND THE WINNER HAS TO WIN OVER OTHER COMPETITORS(now left only eurofighter typhoon and dassault rafale) IN ALL OF THESE 600 DIFFERENT TYPES AND WAYS OF CONDITION..SO THE WINNER WILL BE THE BEST 4.5TH GENERATION FIGHTER IN THE WORLD....!!!
3.ya may be the MoD has taken tooooooooo a long time to choose the winner....but one thing we have to keep in mind that these are critical deal...and if the queries and agreements are not understood well now...it may create problems in the long run when the fighters actually gets inducted in indian air force...another thing..these fighters are goin to secure our skies for the coming 30-35 years....so its very important to judge every competitor keenly..which takes hell lot of time....SO THE DELAY IS OKAY.IF WE WERE TO SEE THE benefits we r going to get later...!!!!
4.and another thing is that of cost escalation of the deal from 10bn usd.....to somewhere near 13bn usd....at the end of the deal...!!!
but still we got to say ourselves that...where in a country where corrupt politicians..nd beauracrats are looting around 70LAKH CRORE INR....NEARLY ABOUT 2.1 TRILLION USD...A LITTLE JUMP OF COST OF 3 BN USD FOR SUCH AN IMPORTANT DEAL LIKE MMRCA..IS JUST OKAY...CAUSE ITS GONNA SECURE OUR SKIES FOR THE COMING 30-35 YEARS..WITH COMPLETE SUPERIORITY AGAINST ANY 4.5TH GEN FIGHTERS IN THE WORLD..CAUSE THE WINNER OF THE COMPETITION IS GONA BE THE BEST 4.5TH GEN FIGHTER AIRCRAFT OF THE WORLD...(after the winner is selected frm all other competitors..which has to be on top of every criteria and demands of the IAF...BY EVALUATING THEIR PERFORMANCE IN 600.........600.....600..DIFFRENT WAYS)....


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## luckyyy

sancho said:


> And EADS is? Exactly, half French and even the French government has shares!


 
france owned 15% shares in EADS with a 22.5% voting rights , germans owned 15% too , but there were talk that germans like to reduce their holding to 7.5%, even spain own 5% dispite a opposition from france ,all it means that france has a saying in the company buy not the deciding voice..
but here we are talking of EUROFIGHTER , and EADS owned 43% shares in eurofighter venture though CASA and DASA...CASA is spanish agency and DASA is german agency ,( the rest 57% owned by the british BAE and the italians ) so , what that means , that in respect of Eurofighter , the franch has no holding...
but in other side , EADS has a holding in Dassault ....you know what it means , that if india managed to get into EADS , they can actually make Dassault to upgrade mirage fighters at a competitive price ....


and i could see a share swap agreement coming out in MMRCA deal with the four nation consortum , EADS and the HAL , intresting to know that HAL also planing a IPO to hit the stock market in coming month....


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## Manticore

sancho said:


> And EADS is? Exactly, half French and even the French government has shares!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi, there is no official statement from the GoI, or MoD AFAIK, maybe because there are still negotiations behind closed doors. There were reports that the US government will reply to the shortlisting, so who knows if that will change things again, but I am surprised that the F18SH wasn't shortlisted at least to have more options to bargain with the Europeans.
> According the RFP, only 18 fighters will be delivered by the wining vendor, while the rest must be produced in India. However, it is possible that the order could be increased, which could increase the number of fighters from Europe as well.
> The first squadron is said to be inducted in 2014, while licence production should start in 2015. If Rafale would win, both could start earlier, because it will be ready and available since next year and Dassault offered fast production of up to 40 fighters if we want and the training is dependent on these dates.
> The design of both will remain the same, unless we don't integrate CFTs, which both have on offer. At the electronic and avionic fields things will be different, because they will have AESA, latest passive detection features and EW systems (SPECTRA is clearly in front here), HMS cleared for EF and optional for Rafale, also both are expected to get METEOR BVR missile, as well as new A2G weaponary and here the Storm Shadow / Scalp cruise missile should be the most important weapon!


 

thanks sancho
so ultimately j10b [if still on track] and rafale induction would start somewhat in the same time frame


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## sancho

luckyyy said:


> france owned 15% shares in EADS with a 22.5% voting rights , germans owned 15% too , but there were talk that germans like to reduce their holding to 7.5%, even spain own 5% dispite a opposition from france ,all it means that france has a saying in the company buy not the deciding voice..
> but here we are talking of EUROFIGHTER , and EADS owned 43% shares in eurofighter venture though CASA and DASA...CASA is spanish agency and DASA is german agency ,( the rest 57% owned by the british BAE and the italians ) so , what that means , that in respect of Eurofighter , the franch has no holding...
> but in other side , EADS has a holding in Dassault ....you know what it means , that if india managed to get into EADS , they can actually make Dassault to upgrade mirage fighters at a competitive price ....
> 
> 
> and i could see a share swap agreement coming out in MMRCA deal with the four nation consortum , EADS and the HAL , intresting to know that HAL also planing a IPO to hit the stock market in coming month....


 
German government has no share in EADS, only private companies, while the French governtment has and the CEO of EADS is French as well. In General the it's a 50 - 50 cooperation between the interests of Germany and France, Spain doesn't really play a role. Also you talked about EADS is working with Indians (consultancy for Tejas for example) and that inclueds the French part as well, because only in the EF they are not involved.
Regarding the Dassault shares, AFAIK they have no voting rights, which means that they don't have a say in Dassaults policy and it would make much more sense to influence the French government in that case then EADS.



ANTIBODY said:


> thanks sancho
> so ultimately j10b [if still on track] and rafale induction would start somewhat in the same time frame


 
Yes and it will be interesting to see how it technically competes against upg MKIs and MRCAs, not only from PAFs point of view, but also from PLAAF.


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## sancho

> *Rafale, Typhoon score on merit*
> 
> Just why has the Indian Air Force (IAF) short-listed the French Rafale and the Eurofighter Typhoon ahead of four other contenders, including the US F-16 and F/A-18 fighters, for the Rs 42, 000 crore medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) contract?
> 
> The down selection at the end of a prolonged evaluation of the six fighter jets was evidently based on the fact that the Rafale and the Typhoon were the most modern airframes and better equipped compared to F/A-18 Super Hornet and F-16 IN of the US, MiG-35 of Russia, and JAS-39 Gripen of Sweden.
> 
> The Rafale and the Typhoon met most of the 630 technical attributes mentioned in the request for proposal (RFP) by the ministry of defence, while the others lacked either in performance or had limitations in terms of future upgrades.
> 
> *Rafale figures a notch higher than Typhoon in terms of performance and involves easier adaptability as it is logistically and operationally similar to Mirage-2000, used extensively by our boys during the Kargil conflict in 1999. The French government has also cleared the technology transfer, including the AESA (active electronically scanned array) radar*, sources in the IAF told Deccan Chronicle.
> 
> The other discreet offering by Dassault Aviation too made sense: save on the $1.5 billion project to upgrade 52 Mirage-2000 jets by acquiring the Rafale.
> 
> Interestingly, all six fighters were in the race till April 17, the deadline for submission of modified offset proposals. The representatives of these firms were informed of the Union governments decision to relax the offset policy mentioned in the request for proposal (RFP).
> 
> The original rider that half the value of the $ 10.5 billion contract be passed on to domestic firms was modified, fixing it at 30 per cent of the deal. We were all expecting a word on extension of commercial proposals on the last day, April 28, but got to know that only Dassault Aviation and Eurofighter have been invited for discussions, said a representative of Saab AB.
> 
> Those who lost out have made it known that they would raise issues concerning the price and other attributes of Rafale and Typhoon. The two aircraft are said to be the highest priced among those in the contest when looked at from a unit price point of view. Second, the Eurofighters AESA radar is still under development. Only the two US fighters have operational AESA radars on them.
> 
> If India finally picks the Rafale, it would be only the second air force after the French Air Force to induct these fighters into its fleet.
> 
> India has asked Dassault SA and Eurofighter GmbH to hold their price bids until the end of the year. The deal is expected to be signed by March 2012.
> 
> The Final Two
> 
> Eurofighter Typhoon  Germany/Britain/Italy/Spain
> 
> Dassault Rafale -- France
> 
> Out of the contest
> 
> Lockheed Martins F-16IN  USA
> 
> Boeings F/A-18 Super Hornet  USA
> 
> SAABs Gripen JAS-39  Sweden
> 
> Mikoyan-Gureywichs MiG-35  Russia



Rafale, Typhoon score on merit | Deccan Chronicle


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## jha




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## jha

Just look at the thrust by Powerful planes..I just love that this is not underpowered..


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## luckyyy

sancho said:


> German government has no share in EADS, only private companies, while the French governtment has and the CEO of EADS is French as well.


when it comes to company law , it doesn't differentiate that shares are owned by private players or by state govt...


> In General the it's a 50 - 50 cooperation between the interests of Germany and France, Spain doesn't really play a role.


that's only limited to one unit of EADS engaged in menufecturing of AIRBUS..



> Also you talked about EADS is working with Indians (consultancy for Tejas for example) and that inclueds the French part as well,


you arw wrong here , EADS consultance unit working on LCA has no french holding , ..
the EADS unit involved in EF has no frenh holding..


> Regarding the Dassault shares, AFAIK they have no voting rights, which means that they don't have a say in Dassaults policy and it would make much more sense to influence the French government in that case then EADS.
> .


Dassault has already sold 45% of their share to stake holders of different EADS units , ..

*my assessment is that , MMRCA deal will follow the strick corporate modal of business *rather a TOT and licence menufecturing..
most probably DASA going to sell their 7.5% out of 15% holding in Eurofighter GmbH to HAL and HAL going to give equity to DASA in return , also few more stake holders in variuos EADS units could came up to grab the new oppertunity in HAL on a equity swap route , HAL is anyway coming out with a IPO and up for grab and i don't think these player like to miss the big oppertunity looking at the load of work HAL going to take up in next 20 years...


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## sancho

luckyyy said:


> when it comes to company law , it doesn't differentiate that shares are owned by private players or by state govt...



Of course it is different, because private companies have only comercial interests, while govt owned have political too! In fact many French are not too happy with the Germans, because they develop everything with business in mind and not neccesarily with the needs of the forces.



luckyyy said:


> that's only limited to one unit of EADS engaged in menufecturing of AIRBUS..



No it's not, we are talking about EADS as the parent company, airbus is only a subsidiary:






As you can see you can see, the French state and French holdings has the same share as Daimler of the whole company!




luckyyy said:


> Dassault has already sold 45% of their share to stake holders of different EADS units



I know, but as I said, these shares have no voting rights, that's why EADS has can't intervene in Dassault Aviations policy!


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## tushar

> *The other discreet offering by Dassault Aviation too made sense: save on the $1.5 billion project to upgrade 52 Mirage-2000 jets by acquiring the Rafale.*


So dassault will upgrade mirage 2000 for free if Rafale will be selected ??/ If its true, i think Rafale should be selected....


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## sancho

tushar said:


> So dassault will upgrade mirage 2000 for free if Rafale will be selected ??/ If its true, i think Rafale should be selected....


 
No, what the article meant was, that we should buy new Rafales instead of upgrading the Mirage 2000s, but that's not going to happen.


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## kish

tushar said:


> So dassault will upgrade mirage 2000 for free if Rafale will be selected ??/ If its true, i think Rafale should be selected....


 
u misunderstood that ,
he wanted to say that we should not upgrade M2K and the money saved by them use to purchase Rafale that will more worth for us.


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## tushar

> No, what the article meant was, that we should buy new Rafales instead of upgrading the Mirage 2000s, but that's not going to happen.


So whats the catch ??/ I guess we will have to pay for those Rafales which we will purchase instead of upgrading Mirage 2000....and what will happen with ou mirage 2000 then? 



> u misunderstood that ,
> he wanted to say that we should not upgrade M2K and the money saved by them use to purchase Rafale that will more worth for us.


So why did they even mention it ?? I mean its our money and its upto us whether we want to upgrade mirage or buy rafale instead.....

It would be better that Dassault upgrade our Mirage for free in response to MMRCA given to Rafale.....we can negotiate alot because both the projects Rafale and Eurofighter are struggling....Rafale selection in MMRCA can be a big break for France as their Rafale has failed to bag any foreign deal....
On the other hand eurofighter is struggling with the reduction in order from participating nations and increased costs....


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## Archie

tushar said:


> So whats the catch ??/ I guess we will have to pay for those Rafales which we will purchase instead of upgrading Mirage 2000....and what will happen with ou mirage 2000 then?
> 
> 
> So why did they even mention it ?? I mean its our money and its upto us whether we want to upgrade mirage or buy rafale instead.....
> 
> It would be better that Dassault upgrade our Mirage for free in response to MMRCA given to Rafale.....we can negotiate alot because both the projects Rafale and Eurofighter are struggling....Rafale selection in MMRCA can be a big break for France as their Rafale has failed to bag any foreign deal....
> On the other hand eurofighter is struggling with the reduction in order from participating nations and increased costs....


 
Well the thing is that IAF is still not happy with the 42 Million USD Price per unit for Mirage 2000H 

A single Rafale will cost 87 Million USD in mmrca deal , this include setting up of infrastructure, training , as well as initial batch of weapons and spares for 10 yrs

If we are to order additional Rafales , then it would cost less than the initial 126 jets coz the price will not include Infrastructure and training cost
As per my sources , there is a serious chance of IAF increasing the initial order by 28-32 Aircrafts at the additional cost of 2 Billion USD , while retiring Mirage 2000 by 2020 instead of 2030 which was planned if Mirages were to be upgraded

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## luckyyy

sancho said:


> Of course it is different, because private companies have only comercial interests, while govt owned have political too! In fact many French are not too happy with the Germans, because they develop everything with business in mind and not neccesarily with the needs of the forces.



you are wrong here ,by rule of law , it just not differentate between the shares held by private company or a state govt...



> No it's not, we are talking about EADS as the parent company, airbus is only a subsidiary:


it was indeed , france has a share holding in the subsidiary of EADS which engage in menufecturing the AIRBUS ,...
and infect it was this subsidery of EADS only traded on stock exchange and you will be surprise to know that today russian has 6% share in it bought from the open market...what it means that today AIRBUS is 6% owned by russians and they are demanding a seat in the board of directors...

now just in same line , EADS-3SIGMA is another subsidery of EADS , enganged in menufecturing UAVs , and it's between british and greeks only....so if tommoro EADS-3SIGMA comes up to work with indians , you can't say that it's indeed the franch working with indians...

that was my initial objection and topic started when you said :


sancho said:


> And EADS is? Exactly, half French and even the French government has shares!





> I know, but as I said, these shares have no voting rights, that's why EADS has can't intervene in Dassault Aviations policy!


 
....infect when i own a very small shares of many companies i do got voting right , and do recive a latter whenever the company has to take a decision , so , what i mean to say is that every single share holder has a voting right and his votes are in the proportion of the share he holds..

so coming back to topic , presently , Dassault Aviations today holds 50.2%, they are still in majority to take a decision but it also means they are in no position to dilute their holding anymore to give india any type of offer which the EF is most probably like to make........


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## sancho

luckyyy said:


> you are wrong here ,by rule of law , it just not differentate between the shares held by private company or a state govt...



Yes, there is no difference in the shares, but there is a difference in the interest of share holders! Daimler wants to make business and that the value of the shares increases, France wants to have a key to influence the policy of EADS to their interests, if needed. 




luckyyy said:


> it was indeed , france has a share holding in the subsidiary of EADS



Not not only in the subsidiaries, but in the parentalcompany!




luckyyy said:


> infect when i own a very small shares of many companies i do got voting right



No not neccesarily, because not every share has voting rights and for Dassault Aviation that's not the case. It's a family company and they have a focus on remaining independen, that's the only reason I think that they would not offer a partnership on Rafale and withouth the French state and other French companies involved in EADS, they never had sold the shares to them.

Btw, no I am not surprised, I heared about the Russians but they bought their shares on the free market, also there are increased relations between the Europeans and Russians in the aero industry. EADS and IRKUT for example have several JV, the Mi 38 is developed with European companies...

Check this for example:

EADS Irkut \\\\ News

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## sancho

*Rafale vs EF comparison, based on reports, or analysises from journalists, or IAF officials, part 1
*

According Mr. A. Tellis and his carnegy report and his view on the operational requirements of IAF, the wining MMRCA has to be a multi role aircraft, ...

1) that is equally good in A2A and A2G roles - *Advantage Rafale* (designed for balanced multi role capabilities, while it's only a secondary aim of EF design)

2) that is highly versatile to fulfill a wide range of missions - *Advantage Rafale* (the aim was to replace 7 different fighters in their roles and this is already proven in combat!)

3) that has a low RCS, high maximum speed, long range sensor and weapons, as well as a sophisticated EWS for C-AISR missions - *Tie* (EF is faster and has the better radar, while Rafale has the better general sensors and EWS capabilities 

4) that has a variety of PGMs and standoff weapons - *Advantage Rafale* (Laser, GPS and IR guided PGMs, as well as Scalp cruise missile. Integrated, ready and proven.)

5) that will takeover the main strike role in IAF from older ground attack fighters - *Advantage Rafale* (all said before)

6) that offers advanced radars with A2G modes, LDPs, superior EWS that enable the fighter to enter the an airspace with a dense SAM threat and is able to fulfill the strike attack in the first pass over - *Advantage Rafale* (although radar modes might need some improvements, SPECTRA EWS is a big advantage here and the integrated Damocles pod on a dedicated pod station adds even more. The biggest advantage though is that it can attack up to 6 different ground targets in 1 pass over with the AASM and according AFAIK IAF was impressed by this capability during the trials as well!)

7) that offers highly capable direct attack and standoff weapons, for deep penetration strike missions, but not neccesarily dedicated SEAD weapons - *Advantage Rafale* (AASM is even more capable then the US JDAM, that could be integrated into EF in future, both fighters offer the same cruise missiles, but with different names)

8) that still offers the high maneuverability that IAF requires for the A2A role - *Tie* (both are highly maneuverable with the delta canard design)

9) that can offer a maritime attack capability for the future - *Advantage Rafale* (already available with Exocet, EF won't have it, because no customer wants it so far and even the radar is said to have no air to sea mode. Both can be added, but requirers further fundings from us)


*Results:*

Rafale - 7
EF - 0
Tie - 2


Report: http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/4347-mrca-news-discussions-267.html#post1452281



According a chhindits.blogspot report on the MMRCA...

... the RFP, a copy of which is with DNA, the IAF states the following engine combat ASQRs:

1) the MMRCA should have sea-level static thrust-to-weight ration of 1:1 or better with maximum afterburner - *Advantage EF* (both have TWRs above 1, but EF is better)

2) should be able to carry an external load of atleast 5000 kilograms (comprising air-to-air and air-to ground weapons) - *Advantage Rafale* (both can carry more than required, but Rafales has 2t more payload and the design is more suited for higher loads)

3) fly for a minimum eight hours with air-to-air refueling - *Advantage Rafale* (Both fulfill the requirement, but if high endurance patrol, or deep penetration missision, comparable to MKI is the aim, Rafale is more suited with the operational twin seat version and not only a twin seat trainer.)

4) should be a 9G aircraft, *Tie *

5) the twin-seat trainer should be exactly like the single-seat fighter - *Advantage Rafale* (EFs twin seat version fulfills the requirements, but is mainly used as a trainer only, while Rafales twin seat version is in operational service, especially in the strike roles).


*Results:*

Rafale - 3
EF - 1
Tie - 1


Reports: Chindits: MMRCA Update : F-18 Has Underpowered Engine, No One 100% Compliant, Says Report, Vendors Revise Their Prices !!

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## sancho

*Rafale vs EF comparison, based on reports, or analysises from journalists, or IAF officials, part 2
*

Former Air Marshal B K Pandey pointed out in his analysis "Selection of MRCA for the IAF" (about the intial competition with Mirage 2000-5, F16 B52...):

...Apart from the technological attributes, versatility and operational capability of the machine, they need to bear in mind a number of other important factors such as: 

1) assurance of long-term logistic support - *Advantage Rafale *(Europeans are known in India for quality products and good after sale supports, be it Mirage 2000s, Jaguars, Eurocopter helicopters, or German subs, all with clearly less technical problems and without spare supply issues like Russian counterparts. But the official reports from England about canibalisations of EFs and limited training time for pilots caused by several problems in the spare supply should be a major concern for Indian forces, especially with the recent issue of the BAE Hawk trainer and not supplied toolings)

2) problems of integration with the IAF inventory - *Advantage Rafale *(there are a few weapons on Jags, that could be used with EF as well, but the the Rafale is based on the Mirage 2000 and shares the full weapon pack and several avionics with it, more over the maintenance routines are based on Mirage as well, which makes it easier for the ground crews as well)

3) technological gains for the Indian aerospace industry - *Tie* (EFs offer of ToT is very good and the partnership offer gives indian companies the chance to be involved in a big foreign project, which will improve their capabilities. Rafales offer will be very good in ToT as well and the French companies have the advantage of already beeing involved in several JV, co-developments with the Indian industry...)

4) sanctions and denial regimes - *Advantage Rafale* (all main techs are developed by French companies, no major components comes from the US and can be sanctioned, France has proven to be reliable in the past sanctions, was the first who supported accepted us an official nuclear power and supported us for a permanent UNC seat. French government cleared ToT and no EUM for the Rafale from the start and Dassault was the first who offered radar source codes and full ToT of the radar. Is there anything left how they could prove their reliability to us?

5) financial implications and the nuances of the political dimension - *Advantage Rafale* (In terms of costs of the deal, the Rafale should have an advantage, it's unit cost is already lower and the EF T3 B requires further fundings of upgrades, that to make it equally capable. With UK as a veto power and Germany as one of the most influential countries in Europe they have a lot o offer on the political side, the problem is their close relation to the US. France on the other hands remained to be an independent country although they are a NATO member and showed in the Libyan conflict how influential they can be, especially by the fact that Qatar and the UAE was ready to send (mainly French) fighters. So although it is only 1 country, the political point is strong and only the US could offer more here from the western countries. 


*Results:*

Rafale - 4
EF - 0
Tie - 1


Reports: Security Research Review: Volume 1(3) Selection of MRCA for the IAF - Air Marshall(r) B K Pandey


Former Air Chief Marshal Fali Homi major said in an interview:

The Air Staff Requirements are secret documents and cannot be revealed. However, I can assure you that the ASRs are designed to be contemporary and futuristic, and also have a cost-benefit angle.

In a generic sense, we want:

1) a medium weight, multi role combat aircraft that can undertake air defence, ground attack, maritime attack (anti-ship) and reconnaissance roles with ease - *Advantage Rafale* (with 9.5t emptyweight it is the 2nd lightest fighter in the competition, but is able to carry the highest payload. With AESA radar, multi spectra passive sensors, MICA IR, EM and METEOR, it offers 3 weapons for BVR combats, which is a unique capability for air defence. For ground attack it offers Laser and GPS and IR guided bomb kits, as well as cruise missiles, with the latest Reco NG pods, it already is deployed in reconnaissance missions over Afghanistan and Libya, while target aquisition and assessment of strikes can be visually identified with the Damocles pod as well. For maritme attack it uses the Exocet missile and in addition is also deployed is SEAD missions with the SPECTRA / AASM combo)

2) the aircraft to have adequately long range and endurance to meet our operational requirements - *Advantage Rafale* (it has the higher fuel fraction, has more wet station for fuel tanks and has also bigger fuel tanks)

3) extension of range through air-to-air refueling is also desired - *Tie* (both fighters can be air refuelled. If at all, one could say Rafale squads are not dependend on refuelling aircrafts, because they can act as mid air refuellers as well, but the requirement is not aimed on that) 

4) ease of maintenance and low life cycle costs would form part of the selection criteria - *Not rated* (all hints shows an advantage for Rafale, very few ground crew are needed, provenly high reliability rates in oversea deploymeants be it in wars, or exercises, reported in Brazil to have slightly higher per hour costs than F18SH, but there are too less infos known about the EF from comparabel competitions to make a fair comparison. From what is known of EF customers like the RAF, German Bundeswehr, or the Austrian air force, operating the EF turned out way costlier than expected and the official reports about difficult spare supply are reasons to worry. But any country rates these costs differently, so only figures from the same evaluation would be a base to compare them) 


*Results:*

Rafale - 2
EF - 0
Tie - 1


Report: ..:: India Strategic ::.. Indian Navy: All new MRCA to be purchased from one company



*Four different reports, but for all their requirements, the Rafale is clearly the fighter that suits IAF the most!

Feel free to disagree, comment and discuss about it.*

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## tushar

@SAncho
Thanx for all these analysis....

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## deepakclaw

OSAMA DEAD KILLED BY CIA STRIKE TEAM ... IN A COMPOUND IN ABBOTABAD NEAR ISLAMABAD(150 KM FROM CAPITAL)....JUST NOW SAW OBAMA'S LIVE SPEECH


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## kish

deepakclaw said:


> OSAMA DEAD KILLED BY CIA STRIKE TEAM ... IN A COMPOUND IN ABBOTABAD NEAR ISLAMABAD(150 KM FROM CAPITAL)....JUST NOW SAW OBAMA'S LIVE SPEECH


 
pls try to be stick with topic here , make a new thred for new topic 

i think u can go through post of few member like sanco, DBC, sparks, kdk ,, ,,,,,, 
i hope u wont mind


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## jha

If RAFALE is to be selected, we should scrap the Mirage upgrade order and increase the no. of planes..


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## kish

tushar said:


> So whats the catch ??/ I guess we will have to pay for those Rafales which we will purchase instead of upgrading Mirage 2000....and what will happen with ou mirage 2000 then?
> 
> 
> So why did they even mention it ?? I mean its our money and its upto us whether we want to upgrade mirage or buy rafale instead.....
> 
> *It would be better that Dassault upgrade our Mirage for free in response to MMRCA given to Rafale*.....we can negotiate alot because both the projects Rafale and Eurofighter are struggling....Rafale selection in MMRCA can be a big break for France as their Rafale has failed to bag any foreign deal....
> On the other hand eurofighter is struggling with the reduction in order from participating nations and increased costs....



free!!!!
did u really meant that.
there is nothing come free in world ,, whenever u are getting free while buying any stuff the price of free stuff already added by many means .. and this applied everywhere 
its true that MMRCA is big deal and we have an advantage that we can negotiate to get some advantage 
but upgrading our mirage is also not small effort, m2k served very well IAF for long time but now its time to upgrade them otherwise we may have to face situation like we had with mig 21s, if we had upgradtion like bison sooner than we did may be we had some less crash 
M2K up gradation will make them more capable new radars, weapon system , cockpits ......... i think except engine everything will be upgraded and doing this for more then 60 fighter jet is long process and desault have to spent a lot of time on that. before saying that they should do it free for us in case mmrca given to them is wrong ,, we must see what level of upgradation we will get
i m sure that some of technologies deleloped for rafale will also put in upgrade (pls correct me if i m wrong)
its sound also good to have new fighter jet with the money we spending on m2k ..... but soon they will start falling due to there age ... and we will start calling them flying coffin 
we need to keep running till we will not have the good amount mki mmrca and tejas. now we have almost 150 mki except this 60+ mig 29s (also goin for upgaradation) and m2k 
by 2017 we will have 270+ mki 100+ mmrca 60+ lca
without upgarade we cant operate m2k and mig 29 for longer else they will also face situation like other series of mig 
another fact we have good experience of operating m2k so in case we need in some operation in soon time ... sometime its better to use proven system or a mixed of new and proven 
over all we need them for some more time
so up gradation is only for keep our stranght till we dont get good amount if mmrca and lca.


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## tushar

> free!!!!
> did u really meant that.


I was just kidding man....we are not able to negotiate the cost of upgrade for Mirage with French, forget about the free...
But serriously the money they are asking for up-gradation is huge....they are trying to make huge profit using the fact that Mirage production line is closed but we should negotiate vigorously, they need this deal very badly and i don't think this deal is more than 1.5 billion $....and we can't upgrade it we should go for Israel....
*Also we have 51 Mirage 2k....*


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## deepakclaw

sure mate ..stick to the topic


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## bhagat

*Timeline for India&#8217;s combat jet deal
*
Following is the timeline of India&#8217;s $10.4-billion tender for 126 advanced combat aircraft, a proposal originally mooted in 2000:

* 2000: Indian Air Force (IAF) conveys to defence ministry its interest in acquiring medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) to replace its ageing fleet of Soviet-era MiG-21s and because of delays in developing the indigenous light combat aircraft (LCA).

* 2001: IAF issues request for information (RFI) for 126 combat jets.

* 2003: IAF seeks defence ministry&#8217;s permission to buy 50 more French Mirage-2000s to shore up the only MMRCAs in its fleet as a stopgap arrangement. The aircraft had been acquired in the mid-1980s.

* 2004: Defence ministry asks IAF to instead issue a larger MMRCA tender.

* 2005: Defence ministry issues initial MMRCA tender but withdraws it quickly even as it starts receiving responses from vendors.

* 2006: The then IAF chief, Air Chief Marshal S.P. Tyagi, flags the dwindling squadron strength of the force. From a sanctioned strength of 39.5 combat squadrons, the IAF is down to 33 squadrons.

* August 2007: India issues the tender for 126 MMRCAs at an estimated cost of $10.4 billion (Rs 46,000 crore).

* February 2008: US majors Boeing and Lockheed Martin, Russia&#8217;s United Aircraft Corporation, France&#8217;s Dassault, European consortium EADS and Sweden&#8217;s SAAB submit their bids.

* April 2009: Rumours afloat that Dassault and SAAB are out of the race.

* May 2009: Defence ministry says Dassault and SAAB still in contention.

* April 2010: IAF completes its flight and weapons evaluation of the six contenders on the basis of 643 parameters.

* December 2010: Offset proposals of contenders goes missing; later found on the roadside in south Delhi. The incident threatened to derail the tendering process.

* April 2011: India down-selects EADS and Dassault for the final leg of the contest, rejecting the other four contenders.

The deal is expected to be awarded to either EADS or Dassault by the end of this fiscal March 31, 2012.

Under the terms of purchase, the first 18 aircraft will come in a &#8216;fly-away&#8217; condition, with the remaining 108 to be manufactured by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited under a transfer of technology agreement. The size of the contract could eventually go up to 200 aircraft as there is a provision for increasing the order by 50 percent without any price hike.

The contract includes an offsets clause under which the winning vendor will plough back 50 percent ($5 billion) of the deal amount back in India to energise its defence industry.

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## luckyyy

*French Rafale fires AASM with laser terminal guidance against a high-speed moving target *


French defense procurement agency DGA demonstrated AASM modular air-to-ground weapon against a land target moving at high speed. The test was carried out at the DGAs missile test range in Biscarosse by a production Rafale fighter deployed by the DGAs flight-test center in Cazaux. The AASM was fired from an extreme off-axis angle (90°) at a range exceeding 15 kilometers.
The impact was at a very low angle, against a moving target represented by a laser spot generated by a ground illuminator mounted on a turret, to simulate a vehicle moving at a speed of 80 km/h. Using its algorithms for detection and slaving of the trajectory to the laser spot, plus its excellent maneuverability, the AASM hit its target to within less than one meter.

This firing test demonstrates the AASM Lasers ability to offer 1-meter accuracy against high-speed, agile land or maritime targets. Coupling this performance with its standoff firing capability, the AASM is unrivaled in the market for tactical air-to-ground weapons
http:///wa/french-rafale-fires-aasm...ance-against-a-high-speed-moving-target/3255/


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## Basha_Trichy

The Indian MoD shortlisted the Rafale and the Eurofighter Typhoon.
A Commentary by Dr. Ezio Bonsignore, Editor-at-Large

07:08 GMT, May 4, 2011 defpro.com | Anyone even remotely familiar with the vagaries and complexities of Indian defence procurement will be only too aware of the risks involved with commenting on the results of a major competition there before the relevant contract has been signed and has entered into force (as well as, on a number of occasions, even after that). But even with a prudent attitude, it is nowadays clear that the Dassault Rafale and the Eurofighter Typhoon have been shortlisted as the two final contenders in the Indian Air Forces multi-billion-dollar MMRCA competition for the procurement (mostly through licence construction) of 126 latest-generation multi-role fighter aircraft. 

Such a choice in principle obvious entails truly monumental strategic and political implications for the future of India as a whole, the more so in that it implies rejecting the Russian (MiG-35) and most particular the American offers (F-16, F/A-18). These implications will most certainly provide food for thought to commentators and analysts for many months to come. This column is however focused on a not-so-collateral aspect, namely on what the Indian choice tells us about the respective characteristics and performance of the some of the worlds leading fighter designs, competing against each other on the global defence market. 

The Indian Air Force has carried out an extremely stringent and detailed competitive evaluation process, extensively testing the six competitors (Rafale, Typhoon, Gripen, MiG-35, F-16, F/A-18) and assessing them against each other on a list, that included some 650 parameters. It is highly dubious whether any other air force in the world ever had the chance to perform a similar process, thus gaining a detailed, first-hand knowledge of the respective strong points and shortcomings of the best combat aircraft money can buy. And at the end of this technological evaluation process, two European designs have emerged as the best of the best.

The key point to be underlined here is that the Rafale and the Typhoon have been downselected on technical and operational grounds alone, that is, even before discussions and negotiations on price, technology transfer and offset are to start. This on the one hand implies that it is perfectly feasible for such discussions and negotiations to eventually fail, leading to the competition being reopened (hence, the need for a prudent attitude). But on the other hand, the conclusion is inescapable: the latest and most capable European fighter aircraft are vastly superior  in terms of design and overall performance _ to everything the US industry can currently offer. They are so superior, in fact, that after having tested them a discerning customer would not even bother to ask for the price of the American competitors. And this is so, despite both the F-16 and F/A-18 boasting the significant advantage of an arguably more advanced and most certainly way more mature combat system, including at its top a second-generation fully operational AESA radar as against European prototypes.

This situation, with the likes of the Rafale and Typhoon having no real export-cleared US counterpart, has nothing to do with the capabilities and technological level of the respective aerospace industries. Rather, it is linked to the choice of the timing for the launch of the development programmes for new-generation combat aircraft on the two sides of the Atlantic, as well with the US decision to go for an uncompromising stealth approach which, just because brilliantly successful must remain the exclusive equipment of the US Air Force.

The perception of such a significant commercial capability gap, whereby the US will progressively become less and less able to beat off the European (and Russian) competition on the global market for combat aircraft until the F-35 becomes fully operational and credible, is not a new development. Indeed it surfaced a dozen years ago if not even earlier, and it has been the main rationale for the unprecedented decision to launch the JSF programme as a multi-national project  the undeclared but only too evident goals being to drain European financial resources, that would otherwise be invested in the further development of European designs, as well as lure at least some countries into taking a blind commitment towards eventually acquiring an aircraft, of unknown performance and at an unspecified price.

But not everybody has fallen into the JSF trap, and there still are countries left that would rather select their new combat aircraft after taking a very close look at their performance first, before moving to discuss the price. The (preliminary) results of the Indian MMRCA competition tell the world that if you want the best, and your pockets are deep enough, with the F-22 out of the fray and the F-35 still years away, you will want to go for either the Rafale or the Typhoon. The competitors are, to put it mildly, a second-best choice.

It would be very interesting to watch whether this message will reverberate on other procurement decisions ahead  at least in countries, that can afford to say no, thanks to Washington. 


----
Dr. Ezio Bonsignore, Editor-at-Large

defence.professionals | defpro.com


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## Basha_Trichy

But not everybody has fallen into the JSF trap, and *there still are countries left that would rather select their new combat aircraft after taking a very close look at their performance first*, before moving to discuss the price. The (preliminary) *results of the Indian MMRCA competition tell the world that if you want the best, and your pockets are deep enough*, with the F-22 out of the fray and the F-35 still years away, you will want to go for either the Rafale or the Typhoon.

i like the above lines in the article


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## Just Yash

Basha_Trichy said:


> But not everybody has fallen into the JSF trap, and *there still are countries left that would rather select their new combat aircraft after taking a very close look at their performance first*, before moving to discuss the price. The (preliminary) *results of the Indian MMRCA competition tell the world that if you want the best, and your pockets are deep enough*, with the F-22 out of the fray and the F-35 still years away, you will want to go for either the Rafale or the Typhoon.
> 
> i like the above lines in the article


 
According to Many experts F-35 is going to very bed aircraft. Very Slow, Slugish.... if it comes to dogfight then it's game over for F-35.

By expert means real Experts ( Those who work in design of F-16 and A-10). see below Video 





This guy comes in Military channel's top ten List Show for Best Aircraft in Discovery and History channel

and 






It' also question the real effactivnenes of Stealth Plane. Thant's why in terms of Aerodynamic Our PAKFA design is much much better then F-35.


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## Ammyy

> assessing them against each other on a list, that included some* 650 parameters.* It is highly dubious whether* any other air force in the world ever had the chance to perform a similar process,*



IAF now give suggestions to others about all these 6 fighters


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## deepakclaw

can any 1 tell me what is the max sanctioned number( not the squadron numbers) combat air crafts in Indian and Pakistani air force resp....


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## sancho

*MMRCA J'anes according to Defense*


http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-...ef-rafale-mmrca-shortlist-90.html#post1731947

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## the rafter

*Typhoons billions over budget:*






* Costlier than Rafale
* A to G maturation by 2018

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## SpArK

*Disappointed in India, Boeing and Lockheed Martin Eye Other Fighter Requirements*






U.S. defense contractors eliminated from the $10 billion competition to provide India's medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) *cite several other international programs and competitions as opportunities for their respective platforms. But the start of Japan's F-X contest in April and fighter requirements in countries including Denmark, Malaysia and Brazil did nothing to mask the clear disappointment expressed by U.S*. Ambassador to India Timothy Roemer and contractors Boeing and Lockheed Martin, over India's down-select decision.

The Indian Defence Ministry on April 28 said it had short-listed the Dassault Rafale and Eurofighter Typhoon for the MMRCA requirement, eliminating Boeing's F/A-18IN Super Hornet and Lockheed Martin's F-16 as well as the Saab Gripen and Mikoyan MiG-35. Roemer resigned as ambassador to New Delhi the same day, although reportedly his decision predated the down select choice.

Lockheed Martin is contracted to produce the F-16 through mid-2013. Deliveries under the 126-aircraft MMRCA program would have started in 2015 or beyond, extending F-16 production.

*"It's certainly a loss; let's not sugarcoat it," said Bill McHenry, Lockheed Martin director of business development for F-16 programs. "We were spending a lot of effort and a lot of time. We took the Indian competition seriously and we were planning on those aircraft."
*


*Nevertheless, Lockheed Martin is set to provide F-16s under Foreign Military Sales to Iraq and Oman. The Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) in September notified Congress of the Obama administration's intent to sell 18 F-16IQs to Iraq, a sale worth $4.2 billion with associated equipment and services. DSCA notified Congress in August of the intent to sell 18 Block 50/52 F-16s to Oman in a transaction valued at $3.5 billion.*

India was the first international competition in which Boeing's F/A-18E/F Super Hornet was offered. Australia has ordered 24 tandem-seat F/A-18Fs as an interim step to Lockheed Martin's F-35 Lightning II.

"We have work with the U.S. Navy going on that guarantees [Super Hornet] production to 2015," said a Boeing spokeswoman. Beyond that, she said, Boeing plans to compete for Japan's F-X requirement, for which bids are due in September, and fighter acquisitions by Brazil, Denmark, Malaysia and unidentified Middle Eastern countries.McHenry said Lockheed Martin is offering either the F-16 or F-35 for many of the same competitions.


[urlhttp://www.ainonline.com/news/single-news-page/article/disappointed-in-india-boeing-and-lockheed-martin-eye-other-fighter-requirements-29532/][/url]

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## bhagat

*Comment: India's MMRCA shortlist backs substance over style
*
When it comes to news value, India's $10 billion medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) contest never seems to disappoint. In keeping with this trend, the confirmation of its shortlist for the 126-aircraft deal, which emerged not from its defence ministry but via local bloggers and the defeated bidders themselves, delivered the expected level of drama.
US companies Boeing and Lockheed Martin grabbed most of the local headlines at February's Aero India show near Bengaluru by flying a Who's Who-quality list of Indian celebrities, including a Bollywood actor, industrialist Ratan Tata (pictured below) and media hard-hitters in their Super Hornet and F-16 products.
Saab used massive billboard posters and gave a local student the experience of a lifetime after he won a "Top Gun" contest to fly in the Gripen, but the RSK MiG-35 no-showed, presumably because Russia and India had already signed a deal to jointly develop a fifth-generation fighter based on Sukhoi's stealthy PAK-FA.





Keeping a lower profile were Dassault and the four-nation Eurofighter consortium, with one involved source commenting: "You don't need a gimmick when you've got the best fighter." Ironic then that it is Europe's Rafale and Typhoon designs which remain in contention for the massive MMRCA prize.
The USA has been rocked by the elimination of the F-16 (always a long-shot due to its operation by neighbouring Pakistan), and even more so by claims that the Super Hornet failed to meet India's technical requirements. Boeing officials were certain that the US Navy's main strike fighter would be toughing it out with the Rafale and Typhoon when the shortlist emerged, and the Department of Defense's reaction of being "deeply disappointed" was a massive understatement.
Clarity on the reasons behind New Delhi's larger-than-expected MMRCA cull will come soon if the defeated bidders choose to comment after receiving formal debriefings. But its surprise action - and the real likelihood of a selection being made before extended bids expire on 31 December - makes it clear that its programme does have more to do with operational capability and technology transfer than column inches.
June's Paris air show will provide the next forum for Dassault and Eurofighter to tout the merits of their well-matched candidates, which are now in combat use over Libya for France and the UK. Thankfully, their marketing agendas are unlikely to have much regard for celebrity passengers.
Comment: India's MMRCA shortlist backs substance over style


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## sancho

> *India Shifts Allegiance From Russia To Europe*
> 
> 
> NEW DELHI  India is slowly shifting its allegiance from its traditional arms suppliers in Russia toward other European firms.
> 
> The country last month rejected Russias bid to sell India its MiG-35 fighter jets in the largest arms tender of this century. India also declined Boeing and Lockheed Martins bids for the $11 billion Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft contract. The final contenders to deliver 126 jets are the Rafale, made by Frances Dassault Aviation, and the Eurofighter Typhoon.
> 
> Senior Indian Air Force (IAF) officials say Russias Rosoboronexport and MiG design bureau were informed about the perceived drawbacks of the Russian offer, which included the engines. The Russian technologies did not fit the program, an official says, without elaborating.
> 
> In another snub of Russia, for the first time the IAF has decided to look beyond Moscow for spares for its inventory of Russian systems. Indias defense ministry recently issued global tenders worth several million dollars to international suppliers to reload its stocks of spares for its Russian-made MiG-23, MiG-27 and MiG-29 combat aircraft; IL-76 heavy-lift transports; IL-78 midair refuelers; all Mi-series helicopters; Pechora and OSA-AK air defense missiles and P-18 and P-19 radars.
> 
> The IAF has pointed out that delays in Russian after-sales support for military equipment are hurting the countrys battle readiness. India has long leaned on Russia to equip its armed forces with military hardware. But Russia doesnt have it all together to supply in one go anymore, a senior IAF official tells Aviation Week.
> 
> The IAF also has problems with the serviceability of its MiG series, leading to the government informing parliament in February that it was planning to phase out the accident-prone fighter jets by 2017, when modern aircraft would be inducted.
> 
> Many more such tenders are in the pipeline, the IAF officials says.
> 
> But the change in stance also signifies a significant step in the governments efforts to strengthen its rapidly depleting air power and ensure it is ready to meet the challenge of combating a resurgent China and an ambitious Pakistan.
> 
> The Indian army also has issued a request for information for acquiring active protection and countermeasure systems for its T-90S main battle tanks.
> 
> Supply of spare parts are an issue with Russia, and though we still depend on the original equipment manufacturer for specialized spare parts, we are forced to look outside Moscow for generalized spares at a better price, an army official says.
> 
> India has been heavily reliant on Russia, which produces about 60% of the equipment used by the Indian armed forces. India has awarded its largest arms contracts to Russia during the recent decade, including its order for the Admiral Kuznetsov aircraft carrier and a group of MiG-29K jets for the vessel, as well as frigates and a rented submarine.
> 
> India also joined forces with Russia to build BrahMos cruise missiles, a fifth-generation fighter jet and the new MTA transport plane.
> 
> Ajay Lele, a former IAF wing commander who currently works with the New Delhi-based Institute for Defense Studies and Analyses, tells Aviation Week that India is exploring other options since its buying potential has increased and its nuclear market has also opened up.
> 
> A countrys defense requirements cannot wait endlessly, Lele says. India wants hardware on [the] ground, hence it is looking for better technical options that include easy deliverables, state-of-[the]-art technology and economies of purchase.
> 
> India has tripled its defense budget over the past decade  to $32 billion this year, the worlds 10th largest  in an attempt to foil a quadrupling of spending in the same period by neighboring China. The country is planning to spend $80 billion on defense in the next five years to acquire new equipment.
> 
> Kapil Kaul, chief executive of the Indian unit of consulting firm the Center for Asia-Pacific Aviation, says that geopolitical concerns are also being taken into account, as India looks to shore up relations with Europe. [With the] European Union being an important political partner, India needs to balance the geopolitical impact, Kaul says.



India Shifts Allegiance From Russia To Europe | AVIATION WEEK


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## udiptoghsh

WHATS THE LATEST STATUS OF THE M-MRCA DEAL????????????


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## sancho

udiptoghsh said:


> WHATS THE LATEST STATUS OF THE M-MRCA DEAL????????????


 
Shortlisting done, all vendors will be informed about the outcome of the evaluations (possible renegotioations with vendors that complain), comercial bids of the shortlisted fighters will be renewed till december this year, final negotioations about costs, ToT, offsets and other advantages.
IAF Chief hopes for a final decision till summer, personally I expect it till the end of the year, media suggests it only by march next year, but with only 2 vendors left, I highly doubt that.


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## sancho

> *Indian Politician Says Sonia Gandhi Has Rigged M-MRCA Deal *
> 
> If the Indian M-MRCA fighter competition wasn't quite surreal enough, in comes an Indian politician-economist, notably re-energized by his current association with India's "anti-corruption" movement and India's monumental telecom scam investigation, to stir the pot some more. A known fire-bomber with an unabashed antipathy to India's ruling Congress party, Subramanian Swamy has now apparently trained his ire at the IAF's $12-billion M-MRCA fighter deal.
> 
> Swamy, officially leader of the Janata Party, but best known for years as a voluble and dogged government baiter on all matters graft, says he has written to Indian Prime Minister Dr Manmohan Singh making some very dramatic allegations. The letter (full text in image above) was written on April 29, two days after the dramatic M-MRCA elimination. Like all his letters, this one says that it draws on "inside information" from within the government. Let's get to the contents:
> 
> Swamy writes: "My sources indicate that the pre-determined decision to favour the French aircraft [Dassault's Rafale] was the outcome of several conversations between the wife of French President Ms. Carla Bruni and the Chairperson of the National Advisory Council Ms. Sonia Gandhi, and surprisingly also with two foreign nationals who are the sisters of Ms. Sonia Gandhi."
> 
> It is not clear what information Swamy has based his allegations on.
> 
> At the very least, it should be said that Subramanian Swamy was once quite aptly described by a leading news weekly as "the Professor Moriarty to Sonia's Sherlock Holmes", so there shouldn't be any real surprise that the target of his letter is specifically the Congress Party president. That said, the allegations he makes are indubitably explosive. Swamy's letter refers to "credible information" in his possession, but says nothing about what this credible information is. It is not clear if he has shared any further information with the Prime Minister apart from this letter.
> 
> The operative part of his letter goes: "Based on some credible information given to me on the conversation between Ms. Carla Bruni and Ms Sonia Gandhis sisters, there has been an agreement of the French to pay a hefty bribe for favouring the purchase of French aircrafts."
> 
> Interestingly, a popular Indian military commentator has made a slightly backhanded allusion to pretty much the same thing today. In this column published in today's Pioneer, Maj Gen (Retd) Ashok Mehta writes, "The IAF favours the Rafale not the least because the French are promising the moon. There is also a high level back channel Italian connection, they say." So either the columnist has read Subramanian Swamy's letter, or has his own "insiders", in which case, as you've no doubt guessed, we have two prominent Indian figures saying that the Rafale has already been chosen to win the M-MRCA competition, and that it took a high-level government connection -- Swamy names Sonia Gandhi, the Maj Gen her nationality -- to work it through.
> 
> It should be reiterated that neither of these controversial assertions has been backed in substance -- at least as far as I know -- in either the letter or the column. We'll have to see where this goes.




Livefist: Indian Politician Says Sonia Gandhi Has Rigged M-MRCA Deal


----------



## Abingdonboy

^^^ I'm sorry are you saying that Sonia Gandhi would be swayed in a $12 BILLION deal with a few conversations with some wives?!!??! This guy is just so anti-Congress that he will attack anything and EVERYTHING he thinks will weapon the GOVT. My words to him- STFU!! And anyway what sway does SG really have on IAF/MoD/"St" Antony? With Antony at the top and some straight shooting IAF brass in charge of MMRCA I'd say little to none. The Indian armed forces are incredibly apolitical and are not likely to bow in face of SG pressure. They are professionals and according to Antony the pick was made on merit- info from IAF.



But I do say the sooner SG gets lost the better. And she can take all her nepotistic BS with her!!


----------



## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> ^^^ I'm sorry are you saying that Sonia Gandhi would be swayed in a $12 BILLION deal with a few conversations with some wives?!!??! This guy is just so anti-Congress that he will attack anything and EVERYTHING he thinks will weapon the GOVT. My words to him- STFU!! And anyway what sway does SG really have on IAF/MoD/"St" Antony? With Antony at the top and some straight shooting IAF brass in charge of MMRCA I'd say little to none. The Indian armed forces are incredibly apolitical and are not likely to bow in face of SG pressure. They are professionals and according to Antony the pick was made on merit- info from IAF.
> 
> 
> 
> But I do say the sooner SG gets lost the better. And she can take all her nepotistic BS with her!!


 
That's what I thougt as well, especially because I doubt that Carla Bruni have much knowledge about these fighters to talk about them, let alone advertise them. Also IF there would be an like it is said Italian connection, I would have expected her to have it with the Italy that is offering the EF, wouldn't that be more logical?


----------



## sancho

> *Indian Fighter Downselect Questions Remain*
> 
> 
> Perhaps it should come as no surprise, given Indias notoriety when it comes to defense procurement, that the downselect in its high-profile fighter competition has raised an unusual number of questions...
> 
> ...Rather than naming Eurofighter and Dassault winners, the government asked them to extend the validity of their commercial bids till the end of the year and resubmit those documents by May 13. Bids expired at the end of April. The others were not asked to take that step.
> 
> The unusual procedure has some questioning what lies ahead. An official with one of the losing vendors says that if the Typhoon and Rafale won this round on technical compliance and performance grounds, who says itll play out the same way on price? These planes are not cheap.
> 
> With the defense ministry opting to choose between two of the most expensive fighters in the competition, there is a sense that negotiations could still fail, in light of the Indian defense establishments legendary sensitivity to unit price. The known prices of the two final contenders could throw budgetary allocations for the MMRCA acquisition completely out of gear. The finance ministry wont like that one single bit, agrees an Indian air force officer who observed field trials of the six aircraft at the Leh air base in the Himalayas.
> 
> Saab CEO Hakan Bushke is even more explicit. We are still offering the Indian government the Gripen, he said after the company noted it was not selected. In these processes, there can be changes of direction, he added...
> 
> ...As things stand, commercial bids of the two finalists will be reviewed and compared to a previously established benchmark price, with the offer closest to the figure deemed the lowest bidder. Discussions on the $4.75 billion in offsets will also take place.
> 
> The decision not to pick either of the U.S. competitors has also raised questions about whether New Delhi is sending Washington a political signal over technology transfer or other issues.
> When asked if the Pentagons policy on transferring sensitive electronics and sensor codes played a role in the decision, an Indian officer says, The request for proposals is very clear about what technologies and software we expect to be fully transferred. If certain vendors have put forward bids which are not compliant with that requirement as a result of their home governments export and transfer policies, that is something the [defense ministry] has taken into account while making its decision....



Indian Fighter Downselect Questions Remain | AVIATION WEEK


----------



## sancho

> *Italy pushes Eurofighter as Turkey's 'only alternative' to US options*
> 
> 
> The Italian Defense Ministry continues pushing Turkey to join the Eurofighter aircraft project as an alternative to its present fleet of US-made jets. 'Turkey wants part of its fighter aircraft fleet to remain outside the technological and other influence of the United States,' says a Turkish defense analyst
> 
> The pan-European Eurofighter fighter aircraft is the only viable alternative to U.S. planes in its category for the Turkish military, Italys deputy defense minister said late Tuesday, *urging Turkey to join the ambitious European-led defense program*.
> 
> The Eurofighter is the only alternative to U.S. aircraft, and provides a great relief to world countries, Guido Crosetto told a small group of international reporters through an interpreter on the sidelines of the 2011 International Defense Industry Fair, or IDEF, being held in Istanbul.
> 
> *If Turkey joins this program, the program would gain a larger importance, Crosetto said.*
> 
> Turkey, whose present fighter fleet is comprised of U.S.-made aircraft, also plans to buy the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Lightning II planes, a next-generation, multinational program also led by the United States.
> 
> But Turkish officials privately say they want another future jet fighter to be developed with a country or countries other than the United States, in an effort to reduce Ankaras over-dependence on Washington.
> 
> Most of Turkeys present fleet of F-16 fighters is being modernized by the United States.
> 
> Lockheed Martin and the planned future F-35s are open to U.S. influence. Only its older F-4 aircraft, modernized by Israel, and its oldest F-16s, being modernized by Turkey itself, are technologically free from this influence, the officials believe. But these older aircraft are expected to be decommissioned around 2020.
> 
> Turkey wants part of its fighter aircraft fleet to remain outside the technological and other influence of the United States. It believes this scheme would better fit its national interests, said one Turkish defense analyst.
> 
> *The members of the Eurofighter consortium include Germany, Italy, Britain and Spain. As an influential member of the group, Italy is leading the efforts to add Turkey to the consortium*.
> 
> Quest to find a fighter partner
> 
> In December, Defense Minister Vecdi Gönül said that Turkey at that point was not considering the Eurofighter as an option, and was more interested in developing a national fighter through its own assets or through cooperating with non-U.S. partners.
> 
> Initial talks with South Korea came to nothing as Seoul insisted on its own terms for partnership with Turkey, while Ankara remained interested in no less than an equal partnership.
> 
> Despite Ankaras rejection in December, Italy has continued to insist on the multinational Eurofighter program as the best solution for Turkey.
> 
> Crosetto said the inclusion of India and Japan in the Eurofighter program was likely, and again urged Turkey to also join.
> 
> The Eurofighter, short-listed together with Frances Rafale in technical evaluations for Indias huge fighter program, and short-listed together with the U.S. F-18 and F-35 in Japans fighter competition, believes it can add the two Asian countries to the pan-European program.
> 
> *It would also be great to include Turkey in this scheme, said one Eurofighter official*.



Italy pushes Eurofighter as Turkey's 'only alternative' to US options - Hurriyet Daily News and Economic Review


So one more partner India has to negotiate with in regard to upgrades and further developments? The offer for Japan is similar as well and just shows how desperate the EF partners are now.


----------



## Abingdonboy

This is also bad in the sense that PAF has favourable relations with TAF and often conducts F-16 ex with each other.


----------



## localoca

Just Yash said:


> It' also question the real effactivnenes of Stealth Plane. Thant's why in terms of Aerodynamic Our PAKFA design is much much better then F-35.


your Failed Pakfa Superior to American Stealth?.. fanboys

J-20 its lightyears ahead of your so called PakFa...


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## lepziboy

localoca said:


> your Failed Pakfa Superior to American Stealth?.. fanboys
> 
> J-20 its lightyears ahead of your so called PakFa...


 
I cant believe this.the planes are not even out now he says that J-20 is better than pakfa.wait before you judge


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## kingdurgaking

localoca said:


> your Failed Pakfa Superior to American Stealth?.. fanboys
> 
> J-20 its lightyears ahead of your so called PakFa...


 
I really doubt it will be a potent stealth.. look at the size.. it is the size of the flanker... such a huge body... on addition to it .... it needs canards to fly such a big body.... compare to other stealth fighter


----------



## soaringphnx

localoca said:


> your Failed Pakfa Superior to American Stealth?.. fanboys
> 
> J-20 its lightyears ahead of your so called PakFa...


 
 Whos the fanboy here? Care to back up your statement with some real facts? And I cant see how the J-20 can be "lightyears" ahead of the PAK FA when 40% of its components are from Russia. And it is a well known fact that Russia does not give China access to its latest technologies fearing reverse engineering.

Now can we all please come back to the topic at hand???


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## conworldus

soaringphnx said:


> Whos the fanboy here? Care to back up your statement with some real facts? And I cant see how the J-20 can be "lightyears" ahead of the PAK FA *when 40% of its components are from Russia*. And it is a well known fact that Russia does not give China access to its latest technologies fearing reverse engineering.
> 
> Now can we all please come back to the topic at hand???


 
Does making things up make you feel better, my friend?


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## Skull and Bones

Guys, ignore localoca, he's posting the same crap on each and every thread. 

Don't derail this thread.

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## localoca

conworldus said:


> Does making things up make you feel better, my friend?


 that´s what Indian trolls do


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## Storm Force

local loca 

You are a Pakistani hiding behind a chinease FLAG. 

Your knowledge of PAK FA and J20 is zero based on the posts you make. 

Sit back relax & enjoy the fire power arriving in both India & china over next 10 years.


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## soaringphnx

conworldus said:


> Does making things up make you feel better, my friend?



Watch the following video from 0:55 to 1:20






There's your source. The official in the video goes on to say that the J-20 is more comparable to MiG 1.44 and Su-47 5th generation technology demonstrators (which he himself says is not truly 5th generation) than American and Russian 5th generation aircraft.


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## Ghoster

*India fighter jet deal a missed opportunity: US*

WASHINGTON: The US says India's rejection of American bids for a multibillion dollar contract to supply fighter jets was a missed opportunity to deepen defense ties and share advanced technology.

Assistant Secretary of State Robert Blake said Friday the US was puzzled and "deeply disappointed" by the decision announced last month.

Boeing Co and Lockheed Martin were both bidding for a slice of the $11 billion Indian deal to supply 126 jets.

German consortium Eurofighter Typhoon and the French company Dassault Aviation have been shortlisted for the contract.

Blake told a seminar at the Center for Strategic and International Studies that the U.S. had viewed the contract as "a strategic opportunity to really take our defense partnership to the next level."

India fighter jet deal a missed opportunity: US - Economic Times


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## conworldus

Nice reliable source. You fail to hide your envy 

Sigh....



soaringphnx said:


> Watch the following video from 0:55 to 1:20
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There's your source. The official in the video goes on to say that the J-20 is more comparable to MiG 1.44 and Su-47 5th generation technology demonstrators (which he himself says is not truly 5th generation) than American and Russian 5th generation aircraft.


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## kingdurgaking

conworldus said:


> Nice reliable source. You fail to hide your envy
> 
> Sigh....


 
Honestly.. J-20 is not the real 5th gen fighter that China is developing.. it is 4.99 gen... i guess there is a cooking inside china where the real stealth and more agile one will come out.. i dont think whit that huge enormous body of the size of the flanker and with canards to support the body it will be in the area of VLO... but surely in the area of LO... 

No way with Canards you can achieve VLO... Mig1.44 or su-47 with which people are comparing was never in the area of VLO.. but yes in the area of LO because of the shaping...


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## conworldus

kingdurgaking said:


> Honestly.. J-20 is not the real 5th gen fighter that China is developing.. it is 4.99 gen... i guess there is a cooking inside china where the real stealth and more agile one will come out.. i dont think whit that huge enormous body of the size of the flanker and with canards to support the body it will be in the area of VLO... but surely in the area of LO...
> 
> No way with Canards you can achieve VLO... Mig1.44 or su-47 with which people are comparing was never in the area of VLO.. but yes in the area of LO because of the shaping...



So you are an expert of canards... ? I bet you know more than the entire CAC expert group, right?

Listen, kid, no one knows much about this project unless you have top level clearance. The speculation is purely from the pictures. The mig 1.44 comparison is just laughable because part from similar configuration, the 2 has absolutely nothing in common. The J-20 uses side and dsi intake, integrated body, chiseled head, integrated canopy... a long list of technologies the mig 1.44 can only dream about.

Here is a much more reliable source report, from a think tank in Washington DC. This is way more reliable than some paranoid Russians who desperately try to sell their half baked, over hyped T-50.
The Jamestown Foundation: An Initial Assessment of China's J-20 Stealth Fighter

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## kingdurgaking

conworldus said:


> So you are an expert of canards... ? I bet you know more than the entire CAC expert group, right?
> 
> Listen, kid, no one knows much about this project unless you have top level clearance. The speculation is purely from the pictures. The mig 1.44 comparison is just laughable because part from similar configuration, the 2 has absolutely nothing in common. The J-20 uses side and dsi intake, integrated body, chiseled head, integrated canopy... a long list of technologies the mig 1.44 can only dream about.
> 
> Here is a much more reliable source report, from a think tank in Washington DC. This is way more reliable than some paranoid Russians who desperately try to sell their half baked, over hyped T-50.
> The Jamestown Foundation: An Initial Assessment of China's J-20 Stealth Fighter


 
You listen kid.... if you dont know the basics of 5th gen .. on flat surface and other BS... you can keep on yelling.. every one has got its own opinion and this is my opinion.. if canards are present ... i bet the aircraft will not fall on VLO spectrum...


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## tanlixiang28776

kingdurgaking said:


> You listen kid.... if you dont know the basics of 5th gen .. on flat surface and other BS... you can keep on yelling.. every one has got its own opinion and this is my opinion.. if canards are present ... i bet the aircraft will not fall on VLO spectrum...


 
You have even less knowledge than he does. The US has tested canarded VLO platforms before as well and only rejected it due to its poor flight characteristics in VTOL, a requirement the J 20 lacks.







Opinion is fine but at least make an educated one.


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## kingdurgaking

tanlixiang28776 said:


> You have even less knowledge than he does. The US has tested canarded VLO platforms before as well and only rejected it due to its poor flight characteristics in VTOL, a requirement the J 20 lacks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Opinion is fine but at least make an educated one.



source to prove that it lies in VLO spectrum....

and do a basic research in google... canards and stealth...


----------



## tanlixiang28776

kingdurgaking said:


> source to prove that it lies in VLO spectrum....
> 
> and do a basic research in google... canards and stealth...


 
Joint US Aircraft Acquisition Programs

JAST
Joint Advanced Strike Technology.
USAF, USN, USMC.
1993.
Affordable, common next-generation strike fighter.
Succeeded cancelled MRF (USAF), A/F-X (USN) and CALF (USMC/UK RN/DARPA) programs.
Requirements:
USAF: conventional, stealthy attack; advanced avionics; low cost; reliability; speed, range, warload.
USN: conventional carrier-based attack.
USMC, RN: advanced STOVL attack.
Secondary air defense.
Mach 1.5.
Small internal warload (stealthy) or large external warload (non-stealthy).
December 1994: Concept Definition and Design Research contracts awarded:
Boeing JAST.
Lockheed Martin JAST.
McDonnell Douglas JAST.
Northrop Grumman JAST.
November 1995: Preliminary engine design contracts award to General Electric (F120) and Pratt & Whitney (F119).
August 1996: revamped into JSF.

People look for what they want to see. In your case its quit easily seen.


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## kingdurgaking

tanlixiang28776 said:


> Joint US Aircraft Acquisition Programs
> 
> JAST
> Joint Advanced Strike Technology.
> USAF, USN, USMC.
> 1993.
> Affordable, common next-generation strike fighter.
> Succeeded cancelled MRF (USAF), A/F-X (USN) and CALF (USMC/UK RN/DARPA) programs.
> Requirements:
> USAF: conventional, stealthy attack; advanced avionics; low cost; reliability; speed, range, warload.
> USN: conventional carrier-based attack.
> USMC, RN: advanced STOVL attack.
> Secondary air defense.
> Mach 1.5.
> Small internal warload (stealthy) or large external warload (non-stealthy).
> December 1994: Concept Definition and Design Research contracts awarded:
> Boeing JAST.
> Lockheed Martin JAST.
> McDonnell Douglas JAST.
> Northrop Grumman JAST.
> November 1995: Preliminary engine design contracts award to General Electric (F120) and Pratt & Whitney (F119).
> August 1996: revamped into JSF.
> 
> People look for what they want to see. In your case its quit easily seen.


 
For the F-35 program you have stated. the Northrop gurman design graphical did carry Canards.. and it was no where considered.... and there is no proof that was the design in the first case....

Expecting Gambit or DBC to throw some light....


----------



## tanlixiang28776

kingdurgaking said:


> For the F-35 program you have stated. the Northrop gurman design graphical did carry Canards.. and it was no where considered.... and there is no proof that was the design in the first case....
> 
> Expecting Gambit or DBC to throw some light....


 
The US builds a lot of things it never fields. That does not mean they are not just as capable however. Eg the YF 23 was stealthier than the YF 22 but was not fielded due to lesser maneuverability.

Unless someone actually has an anechoic chamber and the aircraft they can only speculate as they would not be capable of predicting how certain features on an aircraft interacts.


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## tanlixiang28776

I still wonder why they didn't go for the super hornet. Of all the contestants the super hornet was the stealthiest.

The fact that it could carry weapons in a stealth optimized pod, and had engine blockers meant it had a huge advantage over the other contestants.


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## MumbaiIndians

Its simple. f-16, f-18 were not selected because they are outdated now. Also, americans overyhyped themselves so much before MRCA trials and now when results are out, they are crying like babies.

Get over it guys and lets focus on Typhoon and Rafale.


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## Eurofighter IN

F-18 is heavy weight, lacks a organic IRST and has poor technology transfer no need to go for a plane that does not suit our requirement.

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## dbc

Eurofighter IN said:


> F-18 is heavy weight, lacks a organic IRST and has poor technology transfer no need to go for a plane that does not suit our requirement.


 
That is incorrect the F-18's IRST is USDA certified.


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## MumbaiIndians

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> That is incorrect the *F-18*'s IRST is *USDA certified*.



That's where the problem lies then? Even F-22's RCS is certified with USDA only I guess? 

Now its obvious that USDA officer won't come out and say something that will damage hyped image of F-18 and damage its exports. 

I think we need to realize difference between a certification you get in USA and when you actually are pitted against the best in the world. Let's say pond is bigger than it appears. 

Oh well, we are bashing Indians for no reason. Real culprit is in USDA who misled their own people about reality behind paper capabilities. But guess what, others don't take USDA's words.


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## tanlixiang28776

MumbaiIndians said:


> That's where the problem lies then? Even F-22's RCS is certified with USDA only I guess?
> 
> Now its obvious that USDA officer won't come out and say something that will damage hyped image of F-18 and damage its exports.
> 
> I think we need to realize difference between a certification you get in USA and when you actually are pitted against the best in the world. Let's say pond is bigger than it appears.
> 
> Oh well, we are bashing Indians for no reason. Real culprit is in USDA who misled their own people about reality of paper capabilities. But guess what, others don't take USDA's words.


 
LOL. Its unbelievable how little you know of anything.

USDA

http://www.ams.usda.gov/AMSv1.0/NOP

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## MumbaiIndians

tanlixiang28776 said:


> LOL. Its unbelievable how little you know of anything.
> 
> USDA
> 
> http://www.ams.usda.gov/AMSv1.0/NOP


 
Does that help MRCA?


----------



## tanlixiang28776

MumbaiIndians said:


> Does that help MRCA?


 
No, but its funny watching you slander the United States Department of Agriculture.


----------



## MumbaiIndians

tanlixiang28776 said:


> No, but its funny watching you slander the United States Department of Agriculture.


 
Why I would slander some agriculture guy for F-18's loss in MRCA? I am not even american.

Only someone like DBC would do that for saving face. I only picked on her childish attempt. Quite immature of her to defend it that way.


----------



## luckyyy

tanlixiang28776 said:


> I still wonder why they didn't go for the super hornet. Of all the contestants the super hornet was the stealthiest.
> 
> The fact that it could carry weapons in a stealth optimized pod, and had engine blockers meant it had a huge advantage over the other contestants.


 
most probabaly F-16/18 were not offered to their full potential in the MMRCA and the aircrafts were restricted to the extent at which it just fullfill the minimum requirments of the tandor...


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## Eurofighter IN

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> That is incorrect the F-18's IRST is USDA certified.



As of now the F18 does not have internal IRST capability instead relying on it's AESA, IRST is one of the requirements of the MRCA.


----------



## tanlixiang28776

Eurofighter IN said:


> As of now the F18 does not have internal IRST capability instead relying on it's AESA, IRST is one of the requirements of the MRCA.


 
It could add that easily enough. Neither the Eurofighter or Rafale have AESA yet. Is that not part of the MRCA requirements?


----------



## tanlixiang28776

luckyyy said:


> most probabaly F-16/18 were not offered to their full potential in the MMRCA and the aircrafts were restricted to the extent at which it just fullfill the minimum requirments of the tandor...


 
Elaborate please.


----------



## MumbaiIndians

luckyyy said:


> most probabaly F-16/18 were not offered to their full potential in the MMRCA and the aircrafts were restricted to the extent at which it just fullfill the minimum requirments of the tandor...


 
F-18 doesn't have much future value left in it. IMO, IAF is looking at future here.

On requirements, you are right. That looks like one of the factor here which played against F-18. So, we shouldn't put all blame on technicians behind F-18. Rather, USA is still not sure how to engage India. They are still trapped in Cold-war mentality.


----------



## Eurofighter IN

tanlixiang28776 said:


> It could add that easily enough. Neither the Eurofighter or Rafale have AESA yet. Is that not part of the MRCA requirements?



That woud have been a option if India had selected the plane but it would also have meant the unit price would be higher, both the EF and the Rafale have a funded AESA program already in swing today.


----------



## MumbaiIndians

tanlixiang28776 said:


> It *could add* that easily enough. Neither the Eurofighter or Rafale have AESA yet. Is that not part of the MRCA requirements?


 
That remains on paper. Unfortunately for some, MRCA trials considered only those capabilities which exist on ground.


----------



## kingdurgaking

tanlixiang28776 said:


> The US builds a lot of things it never fields. That does not mean they are not just as capable however. Eg the YF 23 was stealthier than the YF 22 but was not fielded due to lesser maneuverability.
> 
> Unless someone actually has an anechoic chamber and the aircraft they can only speculate as they would not be capable of predicting how certain features on an aircraft interacts.


 
hmmm the one you have mentioned was not even built or kept under wraps.. because it was very complex... 

Secondly it is a very a artistic impression and not the real one..(you have any proof to state it was the original image) because

in F-35 competition only two where actually given funds to develop prototypes (they are boeing and LM)..

Others are asked to give detailed graphical.. and Northrop was rejected because of the complexities as it was not given opportunity like YF-23...

secondly there is no proof to stay that this proto type will lie in VLO band of spectrum but chance of moving to LO band spectrum is more...


Canards was a very wide discussion... just google and check... Canards are the most bad element of stealth... 

Rafale and EFT have 1-2 m2 of RCS because of canards which was the main element of radar reflection... so J-20 it is very difficult to imagine that it will be in VLO of the league of Raptor and B-2 but yes it is under LO spectrum RCS less that 0.1m2 ..


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## MumbaiIndians

IMO, J-20 will be a surprise. It will come out far better than any contender out there from west and europe. Specially because China has kept R&D heavily home-grown. Chinese will improve in areas where west has failed.


----------



## dbc

MumbaiIndians said:


> Why I would slander some agriculture guy for F-18's loss in MRCA? I am not even american.
> 
> Only someone like DBC would do that for saving face. I only picked on her childish attempt. Quite immature of her to defend it that way.


 

lol The F/A-18 does not need defending, stop talking about the F-18 and droll over your Euro fighter.


----------



## Hulk

MumbaiIndians said:


> IMO, J-20 will be a surprise. It will come out far better than any contender out there from west and europe. Specially because China has kept R&D heavily home-grown. Chinese will improve in areas where west has failed.



If you feel such with DBC, do start a discussion on Planes with her you will realize what she is made off. She has lot of respect in this forum, including from Indians.


----------



## sancho

tanlixiang28776 said:


> I still wonder why they didn't go for the super hornet. Of all the contestants the super hornet was the stealthiest.
> 
> The fact that it could carry weapons in a stealth optimized pod, and had engine blockers meant it had a huge advantage over the other contestants.


 
Because that's only a dream Boeing has, if somebody will be ready to fund it. The fact is nothing of the international road map is developed now and that's why Boeing officials themself stated that only the EPE engine upgrade and the additional sensors are on offer for India!
The weapon pod (that carries only some weapons inside WVR missiles are still on the wingtips), the new cockpit with touchscreens, the integrated IRST... will only be developed (as demo versions) for the competition in Japan, where the Super Hornet has to compete against the F35.


----------



## sancho

> *Impacts of the Indian Fighter Competition*
> 
> by Robbin Laird
> 
> 05/16/2011 India is clearly a key player in shaping the future of Chinese power, globally and in the Pacific. At the same time, the significant 2nd and 3rd world fighter market will be dominated by exports from China, Russia, India or Brazil...
> 
> 
> ...*The Eurofighter Factor*
> 
> What are the strategic potentials of a Eurofighter in India from an industrial point of view? Much depends on what India is able to do and can re-organize itself to do. If properly organized, India could shape a significant aerospace future and Eurofighter could become a key stimulant to such a future.
> 
> The collaboration necessary to make Eurofighter work in India  with significant local support  requires more than simply transferring technology. It requires in effect a European and Indian concurrent engineering process. If such a process can be shaped in the period of constructing, enabling and supporting an Indian Eurofighter then several other possibilities emerge.
> 
> An Indian-European congruent engineering capability could shape the future of exports from India to the second and third world combat aircraft markets. Here European engineering excellence combined with Indian manufacturing capabilities and IT excellence could create a global gamechanger. Not exactly Tata Nanos for the aerospace market but you get the point.
> 
> The congruence could craft the next generation of manned European combat aircraft as well. Such an aircraft could be designed with the other innovations in mind with significant impact, namely 5th generation aircraft and remotely piloted aircraft (RPAs).
> 
> Then the possibility of working a sensor and processing enterprise across manned assets combat aircraft and command and control aircraft  as well as RPAs can be envisaged. For different clients, different mixes of sensors and communication and management assets could be placed on the combat versus large aircraft versus UAV platforms. Such mix and match possibilities could drive serious innovation.
> 
> And finally, EADS as key Eurofighter company has other assets of interest to India, such as Airbus commercial and military Airbus platforms. A400Ms and A330 tankers could be in play, and notably related to the sensor enterprise discussed above. The air tanker is an especially interesting platform to include in the mix because of all the space inside the A330 tanker, which can be used for C2 and related options.
> 
> And of course, Airbus, unlike Boeing, has demonstrated a willingness to build overseas final assembly plants. The US after turning down the opportunity to build tankers in Mobile, Alabama, and freighters and future Airbus commercial products may be shocked to see such facilities some day in India.
> 
> 
> *The Rafale Factor*
> 
> The French Rafale is one of the two European aircraft downselected in the Indian fighter competition. Although the plane has yet to win an export order, the flagship Dassault combat aircraft has progressed to the point that India as well as Brazil could seriously select it as their next generation combat aircraft.
> 
> A major advantage vis a vis Eurofighter is that the Indians already have in their Russian aircraft a higher altitude combat aircraft and in this way similar to Eurofighter. And when the Indians did not select the engine for their light combat aircraft from the consortium supplying the Eurofighter engine, many analysts assumed this meant that Eurofighter would not be downselected in the fighter competition. A GE engine was selected for the LCA.
> 
> The Rafale is a multi-mission aircraft closer to the F-16 or F-18 class aircraft than to the F-15 or the Eurofighter. Several Indian sources have made it clear to SLD that the class of aircraft, which the F-16 represents, is in the sweet spot of their needs.
> 
> As such, the Rafale has advantages.
> 
> The French Air Force and Navy have evolved the aircraft over the past few years in actual operational settings; as such the aircraft has demonstrated its multi-mission capabilities and ability to be supported in relatively austere settings.
> 
> The Rafale has been used effectively in combat operations, and demonstrated its ability for flexible operations.
> 
> Rafale has a naval version, which is clearly of interest to the Indian Navy and its evolution of carrier aviation.
> 
> There is a common concern of those countries, which have NOT selected Rafale, and that is the belief that the plane is underpowered. And this certainly is not the case with the Eurofighter. Might this mean that the SNECMA engine could be replaced in favor of a GE-Snecma variant yet to be determined? Or do the French and Indians work on a new engine? Or that simply the aircraft continues as it is in the competition and if it wins, continues the course?
> 
> A Dassault-Thales team would be at the heart of any alliance with the Indians in shaping the future of Rafale. Thales as a global company could become significantly enhanced in its ability to shape price competitive products with such an alliance, and be well positioned in the next decades both for products in the second and third world as well as working a new basis for R and D and manufacturing in their European operations.



Impacts of the Indian Fighter Competition | SLDInfo


Basically confirms that the advantages of EF for India are mainly on the industrial / offest side, while Rafale is what the Indian forces needs and wants!


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## kish

MumbaiIndians said:


> Why I would slander some agriculture guy for F-18's loss in MRCA? I am not even american.
> 
> Only someone like DBC would do that for saving face. I only picked on her childish attempt. Quite immature of her to defend it that way.


 
Go through post made by DBC . . . U will found his contribution is really good.


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## udiptoghsh

which would b a better buy...rafael..or eurofighter typhoon?????


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## Jon Snow

sorry, wrong thread


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## MumbaiIndians

kish said:


> Go through post made by DBC . . . U will found his contribution is really good.


 


I think people are unnecessarily making the whole thing a pride issue here. What we need to realize here is that F-18 is overhyped and didn't live upto expectations. So, its time to move on and not damage Indo-US relations by ranting on same thing.


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## MumbaiIndians

udiptoghsh said:


> which would b a better buy...rafael..or eurofighter typhoon?????


 
I am ok with either. Rafale is a beauty! But as I said before, MRCA is waste of money.


----------



## nightcrawler

Full story: DefenceDog: MiG Failed But Not Forgotten: MMRCA Defeat&#8230;

Abstracts:

But the Americans relentlessly exposed the yard. And not just naked politics brazenly interfered in the matter. Washington is very sparingly and reluctantly goes to the transfer of technologies, preferring, where possible, to trade "finished textiles. From Pentagon officials it is literally necessary to draw out permissions to the transfer of technological documentation. Although US aircraft manufacturing giants, are not averse to share technology with third countries - that's triple profit: for the current supply, for consulting and engineering for future sales, whose logic is due to the choice of know-how. U.S. willing to sell finished products, with detailed instructions for use (however contrary to this contract - a fancy system of restrictions on the use of weapons and launched).
In addition, there is considerable suspicion that if Republicans win the presidential election in 2012 and withdrawal of Obama from the White House; warm US-Indian friendship may cool down in favor of more "traditional" allies of Washington, like the same arch rival of Delhi - Islamabad. Because of U.S. policy of isolationists, & provided that US is never shy when it comes to what they consider "national interest", India has to seriously consider the likelihood of a negative scenario, in which she risks a virtual standstill with the United States in the middle of the implementation of offset programs.
Leaking confidential & technical information to Russia about the US planes, being supplied to Indian air force, may inhibit Americans in limiting the transfer of information at an early stage of the tender.
One thing that other competitors dont posses is the ability to mass produce complex equipment like AFAR (in a short notice), that is so easily achieved by Russians & the Americans. It seems that both Paris and London promised something to Delhi; in fact, they (probably) promised a lot, and the promises were convincing. It's not hard to guess that in order to sell something that doesn't exist yet, the seller must make extra discounts.
Much more likely to clinch Russia is China, who clearly intends to get into this same market of cheap light aviation with its "Fierce dragon FC-1, also known as the JF-17. But that's a separate story, the more so in the Celestial Empire, with its relatively low-tech engine (remember that export JF-17 is so far flying on the Russian RD-93).

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## Che Guevara

*Watch this video:*


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## sancho

> *India Fighter Deal Accelerate*
> 
> Indian Defense Minister AK Antony says India's much-Anticipated choice in ITS Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) program Could Occur Before the end of March 2012.
> 
> India wants to expedite the deal in part because Pakistan is expecting a speedy delivery of 50 JF-17 aircraft, which originally were to be spread out over two years, according to defense ministry officials. India wants to expedite the deal in hand Because Pakistan IS expecting a speedy delivery of 50 JF-17 aircraft, Which Were Originally spread out to Be over Two Years, According to Defense Ministry Officials.
> 
> Pakistani Defense Minister Ahmad Mukhtar has been quoted saying that his country is seeking delivery within six months of the JF-17 Thunder single-engine multirole fighters, which were developed by China and Pakistan. Pakistani Defense Minister Ahmad Mukhtar has-been quoted Saying That His Country is Seeking delivery Within Six Months Of The JF-17 Thunder Multirole single-engine fighters, Which Were Developed by China and Pakistan.
> 
> A Pakistan air force spokesman says the first batch of these aircraft will be handed over to Islamabad within weeks. A Pakistan Air Force Spokesman says the first batch of aircraft thesis Will Be Handed over to Islamabad Within weeks. The agreement to expedite the delivery came as Pakistan's prime minister, Yousuf Raza Gilani, held talks in Beijing on May 19. The agreement to expedite delivery The cam as Pakistan's prime minister, Yousuf Raza Gilani, Held talks in Beijing on May 19.
> 
> Antony has expressed discomfort over this development. Antony has perp discomfort over this development. It is a matter of serious concern for us. "It Is A Matter of Serious Concern for us. The main thing is, we have to increase our capability  that is the only answer, he says. The hand thing IS, We Have to Increase capability o - That Is The Only answer, "he says.
> 
> Last month, India short-listed the Eurofighter Typhoon and Dassault Rafale for the estimated $11 billion contract to provide 126 fighter jets (Aerospace DAILY, April 28). Last month, India short-listed The Eurofighter Typhoon and Dassault Rafale The estimated $ 11 for one billion contract to Provide 126 fighter jets (Aerospace DAILY, April 28). India rejected Boeing's F/A-18E/F and Lockheed Martin's F-16. Boeing's F/A-18E/F India Rejected and Lockheed Martin's F-16. Russia's MiG-35 and Saab's Gripen also were shut out. Russia's MiG-35 and Saab Gripen's aussi Were Shut Out.
> 
> The Indian air force is buying the MMRCA to replace its aging Soviet-era MiG-21 fighters, which date back to the 1960s. The Indian Air Force is buying The IS MMRCA to replace aging Soviet-era icts MiG-21 fighters, Which dates back to the 1960s.
> 
> The negotiation for crucial commercial terms will begin next month, says Michael Christie, senior vice president at BAE Systems India. "The negotiation for key commercial terms begin next month Will," says Michael Christie, senior vice president at BAE Systems India. BAE is part of the Eurofighter consortium, along with Alenia Aeronautica and EADS. BAE IS Part of the Eurofighter consortium, Along With Alenia Aeronautica and EADS.
> 
> The first 18 jets will be bought in fly-away condition, and the remainder will be produced under license with a selected vendor in India. The first 18 jets Will Be bought in "fly-away" condition, And The Remainder Will Be Produced Under License With A selected vendor in India.
> 
> According to sources close to the project, the government has initiated negotiations with the bidders on offset requirements. According To Sources Close To The Project, The Government has Initiated Negotiations With The Bidders are offset requirements. India has fixed offset obligations at 50%, requiring that half of the deal's worth be reinvested in Indian industry. India has fixed at 50% offset obligations, requiring half of the deal That's worth Be reinvested in Indian Industry.



Google Übersetzer


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## Ajaxpaul

India goes full steam to finalize $10.4bn jet deal




NEW DELHI: Rejecting the carping by those ejected out of the hotly-contested $10.4 billion MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft) race, most notably the US, India is going full throttle to ink the "mother of all defence deals'' by December. 

The aim is to ensure that deliveries of the 126 fighters begin from December 2014 onwards to stem IAF's fast-eroding combat edge. Top defence sources, in fact, said plans were afoot to base the first MMRCA squadron in the western sector, most probably at Ambala, by end-2015. 

The first 18 jets will come in "fly-away condition" from the aviation major -- only Eurofighter Typhoon (EADS) and French Rafale (Dassault) are now left in contention -- finally selected for the project. 

Subsequent batches of the 108 fighters, to be manufactured in India by Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) after transfer of technology, will progressively be based in other operationally relevant locations, with special focus on the eastern front with China. 

"The first fighter built in HAL should roll out in December 2016. Thereafter, HAL will deliver six jets per year, which will go up to 20 per year later. HAL will achieve 85% technology absorption by the end,'' said a source. 

*With plans clearly chalked out, MoD ruled out any scope for comebacks by the eliminated four fighters -- American F/A-18 'Super Hornet' ( Boeing) and F-16 'Super Viper' ( Lockheed Martin), Swedish Gripen (Saab), and Russian MiG-35 ( United Aircraft Corporation). *

With only Typhoon and Rafale left in the reckoning after the "gruelling and transparent'' technical and flying evaluation, MoD's Technical Oversight Committee (TOC) and Technical Offsets Evaluation Committee (TOEC) are now working to submit their reports soon. 

"We should be ready to open the Typhoon and Rafale commercial bids in July,'' said the source. Thereafter, it will take another month to determine the lowest bidder (L-1) because of "huge mathematical and data verification'' of the lifecycle costs of operating the jets over a 40-year period. Commercial negotiations with the L-1 vendor will then begin before the final contract is ready for signing by December. 

Asked about "points'' being raised by eliminated vendors, sources said only Rafale and Typhoon were found "compliant'' on all the 643-660 technical attributes or ASQRs (air staff qualitative requirements) laid down to meet IAF's specific operational requirements. 

"Our test pilots flew 222 sorties, over 270 hours, on the six fighters in different weather conditions in India and abroad. Each vendor was informed of its jet's performance at every stage... they have no reason to complain,'' the source said. 

*But what about the crucial AESA (active electronically scanned array) radar, which is operational only on American fighters at present? MoD said the ASQRs did "not require a flying AESA radar''. Instead, vendors had to demonstrate "a baseline radar model in flight or on a test-bed, the complete working model in a lab and how it would be integrated'' on the Indian MMRCA. "Five fighters, including Rafale and Typhoon, met this requirement,'' said the source. *

Overall, MoD and IAF are confident there are "enough safeguards'' built into the project, which include "performance-based logistics'' to ensure India "gets the best machine, spares and product support''.


India goes full steam to finalize $10.4bn jet deal - The Times of India


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## angeldemon_007

> "The first fighter built in HAL should roll out in December 2016. Thereafter, HAL will deliver six jets per year, which will go up to 20 per year later. HAL will achieve 85% technology absorption by the end,'' said a source.


This is sad...earlier this year MOD said that MMRCA will be inducted by 2020 but with thi rate i highly doubt this and what will happen if the number will increase and if IN also opt for same aircraft (which is very likely possible) ? then HAL will also wanna produce those aircrafts thereby reducing the rate of modernization of IAF...

I think either the HAL should increase their production rate or its better that a LCH or LUH and LCA projects should be given to private sector or sold to lowest bidder because HAL has no right to produce every aircraft that ADA/DRDO builds, this way we can improve our private sector and a competitiveness will arise in our domestic defence sector...


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## sancho

*Crossposting from Olybrius of the MP forum:*








http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/5299/rafaleca1.jpg

http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/2403/rafaleca2.jpg

http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/7978/rafaleca3.jpg

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/9968/rafaleca4.jpg


And from the same magazine an excerpt of an report on EF:



> *Typhoon goes to war combat aircraft magazine vol 12, n°6*
> 
> [...]
> An important showcase
> 
> Dassault' Rafale looked as if it had well and truly stolen the limelight in the Lybian operation. Rafales flew early CAP missions just as did Typhoons, but they were routinely flying in the air-to-ground role as well, providing exactly the 'swing role' capabilities demanded by force commanders. Rafale have been carrying the Reco NG reconnaissance pod and the Damocles targeting pod, have dropped AASM smart weapons, and launched an attack with Scalp cruise missiles. Moreover the Rafale have done all of this from both aircraft carrier and from land bases!. Impressive stuff.



Note, the author is not known to be a Rafale fan and still had to admit that it is impressive!

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## sancho

*And one more from the same magazine:*



> *Saving Benghazi Combat Aircraft magazine; Vol 12 n°6*
> 
> The leading role played by the French AF fast jets in the leading stage of the Lybia operation was daring and impressive
> 
> In November 1, 1911, an aircraft carried out an air raid for the first time in history. It took place during the ltalo-Turkish war, and the type was a French-built Bleriot XI flown by Italian military pilot 2nd Lt Guilio Guidotti who threw Cipelli Fragmentation grenades at troops occupying the Taguira and Ain Zara oases, east of Tripoli in what was then Tripolitania, now Libya. Fast forward 100 years to 2011, an air power was again bein deployed 'in anger' over Libya, albeit in rather more potent form &#8212; this time with France's "Armee de l'Air" leading the way.
> 
> As early as March 4, 2011, with the situation in Libya deteriorating, French military aircraft began to carry out surveillance and electronic warfare missions over the Mediterranean, alongside those of the US and UK. The aim, of course, was to build up intelligence relating to Libya's electronic order of battle and tap into its communications. After the Paris meeting organized by French President Nicolas Sarkozy on Saturday March 19, the other major members of the coalition being built up to impose a no-fly zone, British Prime Minister David Cameron and US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, agreed to take part in the imposition of UN Resolution 1973. Much to the surprise of many observers, the participants in the summit had hardly left the Elysee Palace when French aircraft went into action.
> 
> Three sections of Rafale F3s from Base Aérienne (BA) 113 Saint-Dizier belonging to Escadron de Chasse 1/7 'Provence' took off from their home base at around 11.00hrs. The first four-ship consisted of single-seat aircraft in air defense configuration, each equipped with six MICA missiles &#8212; four MICA EMs and two MICA IRs &#8212; as well as three 1,250-liter drop tanks. Six minutes later they were followed by another two Rafales equipped with the Reco NG reconnaissance pod, while in the early afternoon a further two-aircraft section comprised one jet in close air support configuration toting four AASM (Armement Air-Sol Modulaire) inertial and CPS-guided modular bombs, four MICAS (again of EM and IR types) and two 2,000-liter drop tanks, with its wingman providing air defense cover in commbat air patrol fit.
> At 15.00hrs that same day, two Mirage 2000Ds operated by EC 3/3 'Ardennes' at BA 133 Nancy-Ochey got airborne, armed with GBU-12 Paveway II and GBU-49 Enhanced Paveway II laser-guided bombs. They soon joined up with a pair of MICA- armed Mirage 2000-5F air superiority Fighters of EC 1/2 'Cigognes' which had departed BA102 Dijon. Naturally, an E-3F -AWACS from BA701 Avord an, for maritime patrol and ELINT duties, an Aeronavale Atlantique ATL2 were already on patrol, while six C-135FR tankers belonging to Groupe de Ravitaillement en Vol (GRV) 93 'Bretagne' had taken off from BA 125 lstres in support of the French fast jet assets.
> The first mission over Libyan territory as a long and, given the circumstances, Wiring one. The Rafales engaged in setting up the CAP maintained a 60 x 40nm air superiority zone under the control of the orbiting E-3F, while their CAS counterparts opened fire on and destroyed four Libyan government tanks which were about to enter the rebel-held Benghazi area. Close surveillance of the locality was carried out by the two Rafales with the Reco NG pods, the imagery from which was downloaded during their flight back to Saint-Dizier. These valuable images were to be shown as soon as possible to the highest government authorities. After a sortie lasting more than six hours, all aircraft involved returned safely to their home bases.
> 
> Meanwhile, two anti-aircraft and air defense frigates of the Marine Nationale, the Jean-Bart and Forbin, were patrolling off the Libyan coast. These ships would, as reported elsewhere, soon be joined by the Charles de Gaulle aircraft carrier and its escort and protection ships, the Aconit and Dupleix frigates, as well as the fleet refueling tanker Meuse and a nuclear attack submarine.
> A heavy logistical effort was necessary in parallel with France's combat operations. C-160 Transalls on the strength of ET 1/61 `Touraine' at BA 123 Orleans and ET 1/64 'Bearn' at BA105 Evreux carried the equipment required to detach Armee de l'Air combat aircraft to BA 126 Solenzara on the island of Corsica, regularly used as the host airfield for gunnery training exercise deployments. Solenzara thus began to act as another'aircraft carrier/ in the middle of the Mediterranean.
> The following days saw Armee de l'Air assets again assuming a leading position in what the French have called Operation 'Harmattan'. During the night between the fourth and fifth days of the commitment, Rafales fired SCALP EG cruise missiles for the first time at night as part of a 20-aircraft raid against a Libyan government base in the Tripoli area. And on March 24 came the notable incident when an on-station E-3F detected a Libyan Arab AF G-2 Galeb flying towards its base at Misrata, whereupon a section of Rafales was sent after it, leading to the Galeb being destroyed by an AASM as it was about to land. An aerial victory (nearly) obtained using an airto-ground weapon: quite a novelty!
> In answering a message of congratulation sent by an Armee de l'Air general, the station commander of BA113 Saint-Dizier, Col Michel Friesling, noted that operation 'Harmattan' had seen the air force fighting from its bases in the mother country and in Corsica for the first time since 1940. In the first instance, this had been made possible by the outstanding capabilities of the Rafale, brought to the fore in the fight against Gaddafi's regime.



http://img801.imageshack.us/img801/9127/88225561.jpg

http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/7537/96458072.jpg

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## sancho

> *How does the Rafale and the Eurofighter have attracted Indians*
> 
> On May 25, 2011 by Guillaume Lecompte-Boinet
> 
> 
> The Indian tender for the purchase of 126 fighter aircraft has entered a new phase. The one named by the Indian Ministry of Defense, the competition between the final Dassault Rafale Eurofighter trio EADS-BAE-Finmeccanica. Back on the conditions of a tight duel.
> 
> In the face-to-face Rafale Eurofighter, now there is no question of flight tests. The manufacturers of the two fighters will refine their business proposals and bids for technology transfer.
> 
> The Indians give themselves a few months to decide and give their decision here theoretically - March 2012. Theoretically, because all the specialists of India know that in this country, time has a different value in the West. Some tenders have lasted several years or even decades before a contract duly signed.
> 
> That is why the French and Germans were surprised at the relative speed with which Indian officials have selected the final Rafale and the Eurofighter-Typhoon, represented by EADS Germany. Between the launch of the tender in late 2007, and this decision, it took just four years.
> 
> This period, which may seem long, is quite normal when you have to test six have very different: in addition to the Rafale and the Eurofighter-Typhoon, there was the F / A 18 of Boeing, Lockheed Martin F 16 of the Gripen Saab's Swedish and Russian MIG 35.
> 
> The flight evaluations, which took place during the spring and summer of 2010, lasted over a month for each aircraft in the running. Everyone went to the tail-leu-leu, the F / A 18 and F 16, the Gripen, Rafale, Typhoon finally Mig.
> 
> *All configurations were tested: flight at high altitude, low altitude, desert environment, emergency landing, stop and restart the engines ...
> 
> Similarly, the Indians fired weapons, missiles and cannon. They combed through the deployment capabilities of their aircraft maintenance crews and mechanics, for example with a timing of exposure time-table motors.
> 
> Any cancellation of a flight for technical reasons - and it can happen in this kind of evaluation - was taken into account. According to some sources, the Rafale and Typhoon have scored valuable points on such criteria. "A potential customer is not only a fighter super-efficient, it also wants a reliable machine whose user cost is reasonable to at least 30 years ", says an expert.
> 
> The planes were also in contention to face Indian MiG in simulated dogfights. And for this to be possible, the Indian pilots had to make in each country concerned to train on simulators and actual flight.* Dassault has received on its site at Istres in early 2009, more than a year before the assessments themselves. Un vrai marathon ! A real marathon!
> 
> Indeed, the winner of the competition will have a tight schedule to deliver the first aircraft since the Indians have indicated the desire for 2014. However in general it takes at least three and a half years to develop the first copy of a hunter bought by a foreign country.
> 
> The reason: there are always additional developments requested by the client country, including on-board systems. On n'a pas fini d'entendre parler de cette compétition. We have not heard the last of the competition.



Comment le Rafale et l'Eurofighter ont séduit les Indiens - Aéronautique


Google translated

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## sancho

> *Planes, graft and national security*
> 
> 
> India must hasten the process of combat aircraft acquisition to meet the dual challenge posed by Pakistan and its all weather friend China.
> 
> At a time when the credibility of the Manmohan Singh regime lies in tatters, thanks to the scandal-a-day allegations of corruption that it faces, the recent announcement of the Government, narrowing the list of qualified bidders, on the acquisition of 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft has, happily, not invited any accusations of corruption, cronyism or nepotism. This is unquestionably because of the impeccable reputation for honesty and probity that Defence Minister AK Antony enjoys in India and abroad.
> 
> But, many like former National Security Adviser Brajesh Mishra aver that our defence procurement procedures are antiquated and excessively time-consuming. They argue that Mr Antonys fixation with his image of impeccable integrity, (he is often jocularly referred to as Saint Antony!), has resulted in serious delays in procurement of vital defence equipment, ranging from Army helicopters and 155 mm Howitzers, to combat aircraft and submarines. Mr Mishra warns that our defence planners have to note that since 2008 the China-Pakistan all weather friendship has become a military alliance directed against India, against which we may have to defend ourselves at the same time.
> 
> The Indian Air Force has a sanctioned strength of 39.5 combat squadrons. Barely 29 squadrons are operational at present. Some of them are equipped with aircraft of 1960s and 1970s vintage. Even with scheduled acquisitions, we will have 39.5 operational squadrons only in 2017. We will then find that facing the China-Pakistan alliance the IAF requires a minimum strength of 45 combat squadrons.
> 
> Pakistans Air Force presently has 22 combat squadrons. It is set to acquire 10 to 12 squadrons of JF-17 and a couple of squadrons of J-10 fighters from China. The latter is an Israeli variant of the F-16. The Chinese Air Force already has 350 fourth generation fighter aircraft and is set to have an estimated 300 such combat aircraft based in the Lanzhou and Chengdu Military Regions bordering India. Despite these developments, we have proceeded at a rather leisurely pace with our defence modernisation, though in its growing fleet of Russian Sukhoi 30s, the IAF has one of the finest contemporary fighters.
> 
> India has adopted a transparent process of tendering for acquiring the MMRCA. The bids came from Russia (MiG-35), Sweden (Grippen), France (Rafale), the US (F-16 IN and F/A-18E/F Super Hornet) and the European Eurofighter Consortium, comprising Germany, Britain, Italy and Spain, for the Typhoon. Over the past two years, dozens of senior IAF officials have gone through each of these bids meticulously to see how far they fulfilled the 643 parameters the Air Force had laid down.
> 
> The aircraft offered have been put through rigorous flight tests in Leh (high mountainous terrain), Jaisalmer (hot desert terrain) and Bangalore, across the coastal belt. A high-level Technical Evaluation Committee laid down the guidelines for offsets India expects from suppliers, with the manufacturers required to effect substantial transfer of the aircrafts technology in an effort to boost Indias aerospace industry which lags seriously behind its Chinese counterpart.
> 
> Following the rejection of the Grippen and MiG-35 bids, New Delhi recently announced that both the American aircraft, the F-16 IN and the F/A-18, had also failed to meet the IAFs requirements. The Americans argued that their fighters alone possess the unquestionably superior AESA radar, which gives them a combat edge. Moreover, the Americans have looked at the entire MMRCA acquisition in larger strategic terms.
> 
> American analyst Ashley Tellis, an expert on Indian defence and nuclear policies, asserted, The winner (of the MMRCA contract) will obtain a long and lucrative association with a rising power and secure a toehold into other parts of Indias rapidly modernising strategic industries. The aircraft will play a vital role in Indias military modernisation as the country transforms from a regional power to a global giant. There is disappointment in Washington, DC at the rejection of American bids, especially as President Barack Obama had personally lobbied with Prime Minister Manmohan Singh on this issue. Hopefully, the Americans will understand that on issues like the acquisition of the MMRCA, India will not yield to external pressure.
> 
> Even the Americans acknowledge that both their warplanes are of relatively old vintage and cannot be upgraded any further. On the other hand, both the Eurofighter and the French Rafale are relatively new and can be upgraded substantially in future. With Pakistan already flying F-16s for over quarter of a century, there was little enthusiasm for the F-16 IN, even though it was a much more advanced version of what the PAF flies. The F/A-18 failed in high altitude flight trials in Leh in early 2010. Its acquisition would have placed us at a disadvantage when facing the Chinese Air Force. In some flight evaluations, the Grippen also performed better than the F/A-18. Moreover, India has found US conditions of end use monitoring of equipment it supplies irksome. Serious doubts also remain about American readiness for transfer of technology, which could substantially benefit our aerospace industry.
> 
> The US has little reason to complain when it loses out in the face of international competition. Defence deals with India, even during Mr Antonys tenure, have been substantial and included 6 C-130J Super Hercules transport aircraft, 10 C-17 Globemaster transport aircraft and 12 Poseidon maritime reconnaissance aircraft, apart from the troop-carrying ship, Trenton. India is also set to purchase a substantial number of light howitzers for its Mountain Divisions and consider an offer of 197 helicopters for the Army after having scrapped a deal with Eurocopter following American protests.
> 
> Equally, there is no cause for our worthy Communists, who never tire of espousing the cause of the Chinese while turning a blind eye to China-Pakistan nuclear and military cooperation, to celebrate Mr Antonys decision on the MMRCA. Mr Antony has inked more contracts with the Americans than any of his predecessors.
> 
> The Ministry of Defence appears to have understandably decided that cost will not be the primary consideration in the selection of the MMRCA. *The Eurofighter was sold to Saudi Arabia at a cost of $123 million per aircraft * more than double that of its American and Russian competitors. *The Rafale, priced at around $85 million*, is also substantially costlier than its American and Russian competitors. The Eurofighter deal with Saudi Arabia was clouded with serious allegations of corruption and kickbacks. This should not be repeated in its dealings in India.



The Pioneer :: Home : >> Planes graft and national security


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## the rafter

*A flying lemon | idrw.org*

The anger in Washington policy circles when the US fighter planes &#8212; the Lockheed-Martin F-16IN and the Boeing F-18 Super Hornet did not make it to the Indian Air Force&#8217;s Medium-range Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) shortlist, was a thing to behold. It was as if an ungrateful India had reneged on a done aircraft deal &#8212; just rewards for easing India&#8217;s entry on to the verandah of the five-country nuclear weapons club.

*The American incomprehension with the Indian decision is itself incomprehensible. Lockheed and Boeing actually believed they would win with platforms of late 1960s vintage jazzed up with a downgraded Raytheon APG-79 (or even a de-rated &#8220;81&#8221 version of the Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) look-down, ground-mapping, radar. The Indian Air Force is not the most advanced but its leadership, despite its flaws, knows when it is being palmed off with yesterday&#8217;s goods. Had Washington offered the Joint Strike Fighter, the F-35 Lightning II, the IAF would have jumped at it and the decision would have been hurrahed along by the Prime Minister, Dr Manmohan Singh.* In the event, the French Rafale and the EADS (European Aeronautic Defence and Space) Company&#8217;s Typhoon Eurofighter progressed even as Lockheed and Boeing were sought to be pacified with two transport aircraft deals &#8212; the one for the C-130J making sense, the other for the C-17 not. Russia, likewise, was mollified with collaboration on the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA). To my consternated friends in Washington who sought an explanation, I offered an analogy. Some two decades back, the Daimler-Benz car company entered the Indian market with older Mercedes models, convinced the cash-rich yokels would splash good money for anything with the three-cornered star on the bonnet. The old cars, remained unsold and the investment in production jigs and tools in their factory in Pune went waste. The Germans quickly corrected course, offering the newest Mercedes models, available in Dusseldorf, in Delhi.

The sale of Rafale or Eurofighter to India is a lifeline to both the Dassault Company and the French aviation sector generally and the four-country consortium producing, so far unviably, the latter aircraft that an expert acquaintance dismissed as something &#8220;Germany doesn&#8217;t want, Britain can&#8217;t afford, and Spain and Italy neither want nor can afford!&#8221; But, leverage-wise, it affords India traction with four European countries instead of just France in case Rafale is taken. But is either of these aircraft genuinely multi-role?

*Dr Carlo Kopp, an internationally renowned combat aviation specialist, deems the Typhoon, a non-stealthy, short-range (300 nautical miles) air defence/air dominance fighter optimised for transonic manoeuvres, more a &#8220;lemon&#8221; than a &#8220;demon&#8221;. Italian Air Force Chief Gen. Vincenzo Camporini, moreover, declared in 2008 that this plane was incapable of an &#8220;attack role in an economically sustainable manner&#8221;, in part because EADS has no AESA radar. It hopes to develop one with the infusion of Indian monies if Typhoon is selected. Realistically, India will not get the strike variant until well into the 2020s as the Royal Air Force and the German Luftwaffe, for starters, will have the first lien on it. In short, for over a third of its lifetime, the IAF will have to make do with the more limited air defence version which, in effect, is an avionics-wise souped-up, ergonomically improved, MiG-21! Moreover, to expect timely, coordinated, supply of spares and service support from 20-odd countries (including Croatia!) roped into the Eurofighter programme will be a compounded logistics and maintenance nightmare.*

*Rafale is a smaller, semi-stealth plane with slightly better un-refuelled range than the Typhoon but, equipped with the RBE-22A AESA radar, can undertake ground attack, including nuclear weapon delivery. Critically, it has finessed the algorithm (patented, incidentally, by an Indian scientist) for more effective fusion of data from numerous on-board and external sensors (such as satellite) better than the Eurofighter. Except, as late as 2009, Rafale was ruled operationally inadequate perhaps because it is less agile in &#8220;dogfighting&#8221; &#8212; a role the IAF brass remains enamoured with long after advanced tactical missiles have made close-quarter aerial battle history.* Rafale and Typhoon nevertheless cost a bomb, with the MMRCA eventually coming in at around $20 billion.

The F-16 was rejected because, in part, the Pakistan Air Force flies it. By this reckoning, Pakistan may also access Typhoon and Rafale. EADS is trying desperately to sell the Typhoon to Turkey. If it succeeds, PAF will end up familiarising itself with it, if not actually benefiting from surreptitious transfer of its technologies. Trying to ramp up its defence sales, France has explored the sale of Rafale to Pakistan as has Russia the MiG-35 in order to compete with China for influence in Islamabad (which is not barred by any provision in the FGFA deal with India).

The MMRCA is a rubbish acquisition. *The defence ministry followed up the questionable decision with a singular display of lack of negotiating savvy. With the MiG-35 option on the table, India could have played the Europeans off against the Russians to secure the best terms, even if ultimately for Rafale/Typhoon.* Instead, there&#8217;s the appalling record of defence ministry officials and service officers repeatedly muffing deals, worse, acting as patsies for, or playing footsy with, the supplier states, resulting in treasury-emptying contracts that have fetched the country little in return.

Learning from the past, defence minister A.K. Antony had better instruct his negotiators to insist on only phased payments linked to time-bound delivery of aircraft and full transfer of technology (including source codes and flight control laws for all aspects of the aircraft), and on deterrent penalties that automatically kick in at the slightest infringement or violation of clauses deliberately tilted to favour India. Considering Delhi &#8212; prior to signing the deal &#8212; is in a position to arm-twist almost anything out of the supplier firms using the threat of walking out on the deal, the litmus test of a &#8220;successful&#8221; MMRCA transaction will be whether, by way of offsets, and notwithstanding the initial problems with absorbing advanced technology, the Indian defence industry has gained top-edge technological-industrial competence across the broad combat aviation front (rather than rights to mere licenced manufacture as in past deals).

Bharat Karnad is professor at the Centre for Policy Research, New Delhi.


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## ARCHON

Rafale Ramps Up: In Squadrons and Capability

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## sancho

ARCHON said:


> Rafale Ramps Up: In Squadrons and Capability


 


> Although French fighters have been dropping concrete bombs (using a Paveway III guidance kit) in Libya, military officials want a more effective system. One topic of discussion is the purchase of Dual-Mode Brimstones from MBDA, although program officials note a final decision has not been taken. The Rafale would likely feature a basic integration of the weapon to speed fielding.



As I expected, Brimstone is more likely to be integrated on Rafale than on EF, just another proof not only about A2G capability, but on commitment of France to upgrade the fighter, compared to the EF partner countries!


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## Abingdonboy

Does anyone know whether whichever ac is picked will come with HMDS as STANDARD? Is this mandatory as per IAF RFI requirements?

Effectively all fighters in the IAF will integrate such a system in the next 2-5 yrs (most TOPSIGHT-I) 

However I do not know if either fighter has offered such tech as STANDARD or as an OPTION? I know a so called "starwars" helmet was offered as an option with EFT?

Below are current helmets for both ac, not HMDS, have not seen either ac serving with HMDS as standard in any AF yet:
Rafale





EFT





note what I want to know will ALL (including first batch delivered from producer ~2014 come with HMDS) as standard??


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## jha

^^ We should get Elbit design the standard JHMDS for all the IAF fighters .. They are leaders in the tech..


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## KEETARP

Rafale dosen't have HMDS in operation .


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## jha

> RAF Typhoon takes off for Tiji with four Enhanced Paveway II 1000lb bombs
> 
> Royal Air Force mission struck a military complex in Tiji, Libya on Wednesday (25 May). One Tornado GR4 and one Typhoon FGR4 struck the facility with nine bombs. In a demonstration of the flexibility of the RAF's combination of Tornado and Typhoon, the mission was originally tasked to strike eight points.
> 
> A ninth was added based on information received during the mission. The Typhoon dropped four Enhanced Paveway II bombs, the first time it has done that operationally, while the Tornado used five Paveway IV bombs, again a first for that aircraft.
> 
> Both weapon types have both laser and GPS guidance for accuracy. All nine struck their intended target points on a Qadhafi regime storage facility. The strikes mean that RAF aircraft have struck 17 targets in deliberate operations in the past 36 hours, all of them direct hits.
> 
> At the same time, the RAF has maintained its commitment to dynamic targeting missions. In that role they have destroyed Qadhafi regime artillery threatening Misurata. The complementary capabilities of the 1000lb Enhanced Paveway II and 500lb Paveway IV ensured that the storage facility was completely destroyed.














Ground attack capabilities of EF being displayed..

1000lb Bombs


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## jha

*Eurofighter nations give fresh support to AESA integration*



> Ministers from the four Eurofighter programme nations - Germany, Italy, Spain and the UK - have given their renewed support to the integration of an active electronically scanned array radar, according to partner company BAE Systems.
> The backing was provided during a meeting held this month, said Peter Anstiss, board member for BAE's Military Aircraft and Information business unit.
> "The programme is continuing," said Anstiss. "We and Selex Galileo have got engineers on it, and they are working to a programme supported by the four nations. The funding for that is anticipated."





> Speaking about the development at BAE's Warton site in Lancashire on 25 May, Anstiss said: "If you look at the strength of conviction of ministers and chiefs of air staff, everyone is consistently talking about the capabilities of AESA, and radar integration. There is no wavering around that. It leaves us feeling very positive about the future upgrades that we need to meet export demand and that of the customer nations."


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## sancho

jha said:


>



The picture is pretty small, but it seems that it still don't carry any BVR missiles in the strike role, just like on the first pic:









jha said:


> The programme is continuing," said Anstiss. "We and Selex Galileo have got engineers on it, and they are working to a programme supported by the four nations. *The funding for that is anticipated.*"


 
So still not cleared yet, which proves that they are waiting for Indias decision.  
If we join and take a part of the funding, EF will see AESA around 2015, if not possibly around 2020 during MLU and as a retrofit to the older EFs only.


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## angeldemon_007

> Rafale dosen't have HMDS in operation


I don't think we should worry about HMDS now....a couple of Indian companies make world class HMDS and they have tie ups with companies like elbiet and thales...
Also if we will request for HMDS i am sure Thales will provide us with one...or we can go for Elbiet also....not to mention we can do any kind of change in Rafale like we did in Su30 mki to make a Rafale mki version to make it even better on the other hand this might be a problem if we select EF typhoon...


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## saumyasupratik

sancho said:


> As I expected, Brimstone is more likely to be integrated on Rafale than on EF, just another proof not only about A2G capability, but on commitment of France to upgrade the fighter, compared to the EF partner countries!


 
Brimstones would be a potent armament for the the Rafale.I believe the AS-30L's have been completely replaced by the AASM 125 and 250's yes?


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## angeldemon_007

> As I expected, Brimstone is more likely to be integrated on Rafale than on EF, just another proof not only about A2G capability, but on commitment of France to upgrade the fighter, compared to the EF partner countries!


Yes agreed...i think they are stuck with F35 program. The cost of that program is high and these countries have also spent on development.....


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## sancho

saumyasupratik said:


> Brimstones would be a potent armament for the the Rafale.I believe the AS-30L's have been completely replaced by the AASM 125 and 250's yes?


 
Not replaced directly I would say, AASM is something between a PGM and missile, so Brimstone, or the laser guided rocket pods that are under development are more likely to replace it in the same manner.


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## sancho

> *Rafale in Combat: &#8220;War for Dummies&#8221;*
> 
> 
> By Giovanni de Briganti
> 
> RAFALETOWN, Corsica --- French air force Rafale combat aircraft deployed here as part of the UN-sanctioned Libyan No-Fly Zone are for the first time making full use of the aircraft&#8217;s &#8220;omnirole&#8221; capabilities, which allow a single aircraft to carry out the full gamut of missions during a single sortie.
> 
> Pilots of the eight-ship Rafale detachment based here at Solenzara air base in Corsica, and provisionally dubbed &#8220;Rafaletown,&#8221; routinely take off with four MICA air-to-air missiles, three or six AASM Hammer precision-guided bombs, a Thales Damoclès laser targeting pod or a Reco NG reconnaissance pod and two drop tanks. They can be tasked or re-tasked in flight, and routinely are, to fly combat air patrol, precision strike or reconnaissance missions during the same six- or seven-hour sortie...
> 
> 
> ...&#8220;Rafale was involved in Libya from Day One, and *we fly several missions during a single sortie*,&#8221; says detachment commander Lt. Col. Pierre G., stressing that &#8220;*Omnirole Rafale&#8221; is not simply an advertising slogan *but an accurate description of the aircraft&#8217;s very real capabilities...
> 
> 
> ...The Rafales work in a truly networked environment, and are fed targeting and other tactical data from a wide range of coalition sources through the Link 16 datalink. Incoming data is combined with that collected by the aircraft&#8217;s own sensors &#8211; Thales SPECTRA self-protection suite, OSF electro-optics, RBE-2 radar and even the infra-red guided version of MBDA&#8217;s MICA air-to-air missile which, as it scans continuously, can provide IR imagery to the central data processing system. *&#8220;MICA is not just a missile, it&#8217;s an extra sensor as well,&#8221; says Pierre G., and its detection range is much longer than generally supposed.*
> 
> Data from all on-board and off-board sensors are combined into a single tactical picture presented to the pilot on the cockpit&#8217;s central color display or, if desired, on one of the lateral displays. The pilot can select the data he wants, combine it with other data, and pass it on to his wingman or to other allied aircraft, ships or ground troops through the Link 16, without speaking a single word on the radio *and, if not using the radar, without any transmission whatsoever*. Link 16 can also be used to de-conflict assignments with other aircraft without using radios.
> 
> To illustrate the Rafale&#8217;s networking capabilities, one pilot described how the aircraft can receive target coordinates from an AWACS or another aircraft via Link 16. To accept the assignment, the pilot pushes a button, and the coordinates are automatically programmed into the AASM guided bombs, with no further action by the pilot who, once in range (up to 30 nautical miles), again pushes a single button to launch all three &#8211; or all six &#8211; AASMs to their individual targets. *&#8220;We can fire the AASM against targets abeam or behind us, and can hit up to six in a single pass,&#8221;* the pilot continues...
> 
> 
> ...Another pilot simply says that &#8220;the Rafale&#8217;s man-machine interface is so good it&#8217;s like &#8216;war for dummies&#8217;.&#8221;
> 
> Rafale pilots are also very complementary about their SPECTRA self-protection suite, which is of critical importance as France does not have any aircraft dedicated to the Suppression of Enemy Air Defenses (SEAD) missions. *&#8220;SPECTRA allowed us to begin operations over Libya the very same day the political decision was taken, and to fly deep into Libyan territory without an escort,&#8221;* says one pilot, adding that *&#8220;the Americans also flew in, but only after they had fired 119 Tomahawks to take out Libyan air defenses.&#8221;*...
> 
> 
> ...Missions from Solenzara are flown in two waves each day, one in daytime and the other at night, and the Rafales fire GPS-guided AASMs or laser-guided GBU-12 bombs on almost every mission. *One Rafale also fired two Scalp cruise missiles*, but so far the detachment has not fired the 30mm cannon as the minimum altitude mandated by the air staff is too high to use guns to good effect. *Transit to Libya is flown at 50% power setting, which translates to Mach 0.9 cruise speed even with six AASM bombs and two large underwing drop tanks.*...
> 
> 
> ...Since Operation Harmattan (the French designation for enforcing the Libya No-Fly Zone) began on March 19, the detachment has flown *2,200 flight hours with over 1,500 in-flight refuellings*, initially from their main operating base at Saint Dizier, in north-eastern France, and subsequently from Solenzara...Pilots at Solenzara say that, *in just over two months of operations, no missions were aborted because of aircraft unavailability, and detachment commander Lt. Col. Pierre G. says that the availability rate is close to 100%*...



Rafale in Combat:


Summary:

- truly multi role capable and versatile

- multi spectral sensors with high sensor fusion, even in passive mode

- high class weapons that allowed to attack several targets at a single pass

- high class SPECTRA EWS that allowed to attack, without the need of dedicated EW escorts, although Libyan radar and air denfence were fully capable

- high quality translates into high availablity


*All this in actual combats, ready and proven today and not only on paper, or planed for the future!*


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## KEETARP

sancho said:


> The picture is pretty small, but it seems that it still don't carry any BVR missiles in the strike role, just like on the first pic:



And i happen to see a big AMRAAM missile in left inner most top rack just besides 2nd PAVEWAY (behind litening pod )

Is my eyesight better or i am unbiased towards rafale , That i can see such big missile .


And some posters have claimed - Eurofighter in A2G mission is even behind Mirage . 
And Typhoon can't carry 1500L drop tanks . 

Here is visual proof to bunk those claims 












Before anyone opens his mouth about lack of targeting pod in second pic , simply replace 1000L drop point with LITENING 3


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## angeldemon_007

> Before anyone opens his mouth about lack of targeting pod in second pic , simply replace 1000L drop point with LITENING 3


And have you thought about the cost of this custom made EF ??/

Also its true that EF is now able to carry some A2G weapons but still its no good in comparison to Rafale and its proved in Libyan war....We can ask for a higher power version of M88 which is being offered to Qatar which is meant for interceptor role....


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## DARKY

angeldemon_007 said:


> And have you thought about the cost of this custom made EF ??/
> 
> We can ask for a higher power version of M88 which is being offered to Qatar which is meant for interceptor role....


 

They were already offering the uprated M88 during last evaluation but no modification in initial offers were allowed............if they win they'll be asked for the uprated version for sure.


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## DARKY

I would like to get an opinion from you if Kaveri could be integrated as powerplant if Rafale won??


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## sancho

PRATEEK said:


> And i happen to see a big AMRAAM missile in left inner most top rack just besides 2nd PAVEWAY (behind litening pod )
> 
> Is my eyesight better or i am unbiased towards rafale , That i can see such big missile .



Good eyes in this case! I only saw the empty stations at the back, but it is still carrying only a single BVR missile, compared to the fully loaded testflights in Farnborough, or during the A2G weapon trials. Here is the original pic in better resolution:








PRATEEK said:


> And some posters have claimed - Eurofighter in A2G mission is even behind Mirage .
> And Typhoon can't carry 1500L drop tanks .



It is behind the Mirage, not because of the fuel tanks, but because it can't carry 2 fuel tanks, an LDP and a 2000lb LGB at the same time. EFs centerline station is blocked by the LDP, which leaves no free station for the weapon. That means for a mission where you need only a single Mirage 2000H (even today without the upgrade), you need 2 x EFs, one with the weapon, one with LDP.
In strike role with cruise missiles it's behind Mirage as well, because the Mirage can carry Scalp on the centerline station with 2 fuel tanks, or a single fuel tank and 2 x missiles. EF does not have enough space at the centerline station, because of the gear bays, that's why it can carry only 2 x missiles and a single fuel tank, which obviously reduces the range by far.

Btw, the lower pic shows the 1500l fuel tanks on an DA7 test aircraft of Alenia, not an operational fighter, so far only 1000l tanks are available and even bigger fuel tanks, won't help the EF in these cases, only CFTs would, because free hardpoints for additional weapons, or tanks. 




PRATEEK said:


> Before anyone opens his mouth about lack of targeting pod in second pic , simply replace 1000L drop point with LITENING 3



Which is not possible, because the LDP is integrated only at the centerline station and the weight balance would on each side of the wing would be a problem too, with an 200Kg LDP on the one side and an 1000Kg fuel tank on the other side. More sense would be to integrate it on the inner wingstation, but so far that seems not to be possible, otherwise they wouldn't limit themselfs like this right?

Again, only CFTs will help to make the EF more capable in this field compared to the Mirage 2000), not to mention that the Rafale is clearly superior anyway (5 wet stations, 2000l fuel tanks, CFTs developed and tested, 2000lb PGM and Scalp on up to 5 stations).


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## sancho

DARKY said:


> They were already offering the uprated M88 during last evaluation but no modification in initial offers were allowed............if they win they'll be asked for the uprated version for sure.


 
Not necessarily, because the Rafale has quiet good thrust, people only think it is low because they only look at the engine specs, without taking the weight of the fighter to account (=> TWR).




DARKY said:


> I would like to get an opinion from you if Kaveri could be integrated as powerplant if Rafale won??


 
Dassault offered to integrate the Kaveri - Snecma engine if we want and if we agree to the co-development, so that could be an interesting option, not necessarily for more thrust, but mainly for a more customised Rafale with indigenous parts. According to some reports we already are developing TVC for Kaveri engine with French help and a 90kN Kaveri - Snecma engine with TVC on Rafale would be a hell of a fighter!

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## hamtaro

*Angela sayz: "Eurofighter gut - Rafale merde!" 
*


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## DARKY

sancho said:


> Not necessarily, because the Rafale has quiet good thrust, people only think it is low because they only look at the engine specs, without taking the weight of the fighter to account (=> TWR).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dassault offered to integrate the Kaveri - Snecma engine if we want and if we agree to the co-development, so that could be an interesting option, not necessarily for more thrust, but mainly for a more customised Rafale with indigenous parts. According to some reports we already are developing TVC for Kaveri engine with French help and a 90kN Kaveri - Snecma engine with TVC on Rafale would be a hell of a fighter!


 
Yeah last time i heared kaveri notched up 84 kN with AB..........hence its already more than the M88 which were on offer initially.


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## angeldemon_007

^^^
Any source for this...? because last i heard it was in 70s and IAF is demanding 90-95 kn....



> According to some reports we already are developing TVC for Kaveri engine with French help and a 90kN Kaveri - Snecma engine with TVC on Rafale would be a hell of a fighter!


Hey Sancho, Recently there were reports of ADA going for more than 100 kn engine for AMCA, so is it possible that they are thinking for a higher power engine or higher power for Kaveri ??

Also is it correct that GE414INS6 will offer 120 kn ?/ I mean 2 of these for AMCA will be a huge powerhouse as was indicated in an article....


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## kingdurgaking

DARKY said:


> Yeah last time i heared kaveri notched up 84 kN with AB..........hence its already more than the M88 which were on offer initially.


 
please provide the source... it has actually developed only 70-75KN


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## luckyyy

kingdurgaking said:


> please provide the source... it has actually developed only 70-75KN

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## MumbaiIndians

Latest update on Kaveri tests on Il-76:

Tested till Altitude: 12000m
Speed: 0.7 mach
Max. Thrust bar: 87Kn
Phase 1 of test roadmap accomplished.

Next phase wil start next month, as per panwalla.


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## kingdurgaking

I am not sure.. all of them are design parameters or the goal to be achieved... but the reality is they didn't achieved the thrust or the weight ....

and 87KN is impossible..


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## luckyyy

MumbaiIndians said:


> Latest update on Kaveri tests on Il-76:
> 
> Tested till Altitude: 12000m
> Speed: 0.7 mach
> Max. Thrust bar: 87Kn
> Phase 1 of test roadmap accomplished.
> 
> Next phase wil start next month, as per panwalla.


 
as per the news by GTRE , the maximun thrust got from kaveri on 3 november 2010 flight test was 81kn..

can you provide the source of the latest update on 87kn..


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## DARKY

MumbaiIndians said:


> Latest update on Kaveri tests on Il-76:
> 
> Tested till Altitude: 12000m
> Speed: 0.7 mach
> Max. Thrust bar: 87Kn
> Phase 1 of test roadmap accomplished.
> 
> Next phase wil start next month, *as per panwalla.*


 
This has been quoted from BRF i suppose.


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## sancho

DARKY said:


> Yeah last time i heared kaveri notched up 84 kN with AB..........hence its already more than the M88 which were on offer initially.


 
That's a mistake many people make, just to look at the thrust, but equally important is the weight of the fighter, or in this case of the engine! M88-2 might have only 75kN thrust, but weighs less than 900Kg, while Kaveri is said to have overweight somewhere around 1100Kg, which obviously translates into a worse TWR compared to the French engine. Many people simply underestimate the power of the Rafale, by looking at the low thrust specs and that the fact that it is a twin engine fighter, but the fact is, it weighs less than the single engine F16 IN and has more thrust as well.




angeldemon_007 said:


> Hey Sancho, Recently there were reports of ADA going for more than 100 kn engine for AMCA, so is it possible that they are thinking for a higher power engine or higher power for Kaveri ??
> 
> Also is it correct that GE414INS6 will offer 120 kn ?/ I mean 2 of these for AMCA will be a huge powerhouse as was indicated in an article....



I guess you mean the reports about Kaveri - Snecma engine for AMCA, that should get 100 to 110kN. Imo they simply realised what I often said before, that 2 x 90kN is too less for a stealth fighter with full fuel carried internally and a MTOW of 24t, at least if you want to have good TWRs and flight performance.
That are similar specs like EF, but with the difference that EF has less empty weight, because it don't need such huge internal fuel tanks and can carry them externally as well. So if they want good flight performance, they need more thrust as well, but that project is changing the requirements so often, who knows what they really wants.
I never found a reliable source for the GE414INS6 thrust so far, but I highly doubt it, because that would be even more than is expected with the GE 414 EPE and we are not going for it. Interestingly, the GE 414G in the Gripen NG only has 96kN AB thrust, compared to 98kN in the Super Hornet.


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## sancho

> *New Light On Why India Rejected The F-16 & F/A-18*
> 
> ASHLEY J TELLIS, commentator and senior associate at the Carnegie Endowment has a new piece in India's FORCE magazine which quite substantially fleshes out the stated reasons why the two US contenders in India's M-MRCA fighter competition -- the F-16IN and F/A-18E/F -- were eliminated in a late April decision. The Pentagon, Boeing and Lockheed-Martin, which have been quite silent (about the reasons for the elimination) since the decision, appear to have got their side of things across quite amply, and in great detail, in Mr Tellis' column. For starters, they've shown him those rejection letters they got. A highly readable report. Here's some of the juice:
> 
> Tellis' report notes that the F-16IN was found non-compliant on five counts: "*growth potential, carefree handling (and automatic sensing of external stores), sustained turn rate, engine change time, and assurance against obsolescence over a 15-year period.*"
> 
> Tellis puts the F-16IN's failure to meet the IAF's enging change time requirement down "largely to an idiosyncratic mishap during the field trials". He writes, "It is certain that if the trials were to involve multiple stochastic demonstrations of engine change, the F-16IN would have easily made the mark. Unfortunately, second chances are sometimes not available, and the IAF, for its own reasons, chose not to accept Lockheed Martin&#8217;s subsequent evidence of being able to meet the engine change standards laid down in the ASQR."
> 
> Tellis also suggests that the "blurry" nature of the reasons why the F/A-18 was rejected give him doubt about whether the IAF gave the Super Hornet an "equitable shot". He notes that the reasons Boeing was given for the rejection of the F/A-18 were four: *"the maturity of its engine design, the growth potential of its engine, assorted performance shortfalls, and issues related to special preventative maintenance"*.



Livefist: New Light On Why India Rejected The F-16 & F/A-18


Full report:

http://www.carnegieendowment.org/files/Decoding_Indias_MMRCA_Decision.pdf


Mainly things that most of us expected:

- US couldn't provide required ToT
- US fighters with limited future potential
- US fighters with limited aerodynamic performance
- F16IN could be less maneuverable than PAFs
- GE 414 engine performance was not good enough and was one of the fighters that had problems at Leh. Boeing offered EPE based on test results of the demo version, that IAF didn't accepted


The funny point in Mr Tellis report is, that he now downplays the weakness of the F16IN and F18SH in regard of aerodynamic performance and says that IAF should have focused on sensors and avionics instead. But in his earlier carnegy report he even pointed out that IAF by history has a focus on this and that the RFP requirements also has certain points and at least then he concluded that both, the F16 and F18 would be highly capable and fitting to these requirements!
 As I said back then, his analysis of the IAF requirements were very interesting, but his conclusions about the fighters later were clearly biased towards the US.

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## luckyyy

MumbaiIndians said:


> Latest update on Kaveri tests on Il-76:
> 
> Tested till Altitude: 12000m
> Speed: 0.7 mach
> Max. Thrust bar: 87Kn
> Phase 1 of test roadmap accomplished.
> 
> Next phase wil start next month, as per panwalla.


 
information is true on Altiture as well as on speed.
indeed it's 
Tested till Altitude: 12000m
Speed: 0.7 mach

http://ibnlive.in.com/generalnewsfe...ries-of-tests-on-russian-aircraft/669710.html

hope the thrust part = 87Kn
will also comes out in public domain soon..


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## wind

How EF going to help India when they have MKI ?


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## sathya

rafale with kaveri engine...+ mirage 2000 upgrade now & later engine replacement with kaveri = cheaper nd best deal


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## sancho

wind said:


> How EF going to help India when they have MKI ?


 
Not much, that's because it's not a good choice for Indian forces.


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## Dash

sancho said:


> Not much, that's because it's not a good choice for Indian forces.



I just dont like it for one thing, such a hig hprice tag for what???, it was never worth.


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## sancho

Dash said:


> I just dont like it for one thing, such a hig hprice tag for what???, it was never worth.


 
I do like it personally, but I don't think it's a good choice for our forces and I agree, the costs are too high, just like the risks of further cost escalations and delays.


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## sancho

For those who thinks Rafale has limited upgrade potential, or future. 



> *Plans For Further Rafale Upgrades Emerge*
> 
> With a new round of Rafale upgrades nearing completion, the French military and defense industry are starting to look at the long-term future of the twin-engine fighter.
> 
> Although much of the focus is on a potential mid-life upgrade (MLU) that is still several years away, development activities to prepare the technology would have to start significantly sooner. Potential radar cross-section (RCS) improvements are under consideration, as are equipping the fighter with additional radar arrays for greater spherical coverage and adding thrust vector control to the two M88 turbojets. The MLU configuration is not expected to emerge until around 2025...



Plans For Further Rafale Upgrades Emerge | AVIATION WEEK


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## KEETARP

sancho said:


> Good eyes in this case! I only saw the empty stations at the back,



Naah ....... . It was not my eyesight but just an unbiased view of looking things . Tell me did you really missed it or you knew but still went on praising rafale .



> but it is still carrying only a single BVR missile, compared to the fully loaded testflights in Farnborough, or during the A2G weapon trials.



The pic you are talking about - about full load , probably this 







Reason could be - Apart from trials,airshows if you talk in real combat scene . It will be absolutely rare situation when jets would be so heavily loaded .Think about TWR in this situation - not only rafale but eurofighter also will be in poor TWR situation . Poor than airbus330 even . 




> It is behind the Mirage, not because of the fuel tanks, but because it can't carry 2 fuel tanks, an LDP and a 2000lb LGB at the same time. EFs centerline station is blocked by the LDP, which leaves no free station for the weapon.



That is because only three et stations rt now , but why you need 2nd tank . ????
Eurofighter has bigger range , bigger internal fuel capacity . And once CFT are operational like we saw in AERO-india pic . Even that capability would be added . 

Just look at the above pic , and manipulate it 

1) add Litening3 to centerline , replace 2other drop tanks with Storm shadow + CFTs will come in future 






2) add Litening3 to centerline , replace 2 other drop tanks symmetrically with GBU-10 2000 lbs bomb .






something like this 






Refuel this eurofighter carrying cfts , over NE border with il78 . You have bomb truck entering enemy's air-space.

or my fav config - 

3) Replace the centreline fueltank with litening III and 2 of the bombs with Brimstone triple racks


To add -And few years back , we saw some unique configs also . Pics not any more on official website after website up gradation .











and most interesting one 






If last of the pic comes true in 2-3 years . one 2000l space is free - Right 



> That means for a mission where you need only a single Mirage 2000H (even today without the upgrade), you need 2 x EFs, one with the weapon, one with LDP.
> In strike role with cruise missiles it's behind Mirage as well, because the Mirage can carry Scalp on the centerline station with 2 fuel tanks, or a single fuel tank and 2 x missiles. EF does not have enough space at the centerline station, because of the gear bays, that's why it can carry only 2 x missiles and a single fuel tank, which obviously reduces the range by far.



Talking about - 2000 lbs bomb ,

With the accuracy as good as 1-3 m CEP , a 1000lbs paveway4, EGBU-16 can cause damage equivalent to what a generation old 2000lbs gbu10 paveway did . 
This is exactly why F35 wont be needing a 2000lbs bomb 




> Btw, the lower pic shows the 1500l fuel tanks on an DA7 test aircraft of Alenia, not an operational fighter, so far only 1000l tanks are available and even bigger fuel tanks, won't help the EF in these cases, only CFTs would, because free hardpoints for additional weapons, or tanks.



Well not a problem , if tested once - then clearing them for operation is not a big deal . 
Any increment from 1000l is always welcomed 




> Which is not possible, because the LDP is integrated only at the centerline station and the weight balance would on each side of the wing would be a problem too, *with an 200Kg LDP on the one side and an 1000Kg fuel tank on the other side*. More sense would be to integrate it on the inner wingstation, but so far that seems not to be possible, otherwise they wouldn't limit themselfs like this right?
> 
> Again, only CFTs will help to make the EF more capable in this field compared to the Mirage 2000), not to mention that the Rafale is clearly superior anyway (5 wet stations, 2000l fuel tanks, CFTs developed and tested, 2000lb PGM and Scalp on up to 5 stations).



For bold part - Asymmetric loading you meant 

Has been tested before 






a 2000lbs pgm only on one side . 

And look at the first pic again - 
as i said before also 
Replace the centreline fueltank with litening III and 2 of the bombs with Brimstone triple racks , Plus 4 additional AMRAAM/Meteor and 2 ASRAAM 

Way cheaper and looks more impressive than Rafale with 2/2 MICA IR/EM + triple rack of AASM - isn't it .

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## sancho

PRATEEK said:


> Naah ....... . It was not my eyesight but just an unbiased view of looking things . Tell me did you really missed it or you knew but still went on praising rafale .



Oh please, why should I? The edge the Rafale has in terms of maturity, tech level, load, or multi role capability is more than obvious, you just need to look at the Libiyan conflict to understand that. I just pointed that there is something strange with the loads EF is carrying in operational strike roles.
Btw, TWR is for sure not a reason for that, because EF has an excellent TWR even with full load and that's why it impressed so much with that load in Farnborough, but as I said back then, it's not a realistic loadout. Today we even see that it don't carry BVR missiles and mainly just SR missiles and that has to have a reason, because with such a load it offers only the self defence capability of the older Jags and needs dedicated escorts for sure! Similary, the French Mirage 2000D also carries only 2 x SR missiles with strike loads, that's why they get escorted by Mirage 2000-5s with A2A config, while the Rafale carries at least 2 x SR and 2 x MR missiles in any role. 




PRATEEK said:


> 1) add Litening3 to centerline , replace 2other drop tanks with Storm shadow + CFTs will come in future



Exactly and that's why I said, till EF get CFTs, it's strike capability is less then Mirage 2000s. So now you understand it and have to agree with me.





PRATEEK said:


> To add -And few years back , we saw some unique configs also . *Pics not any more on official website after website up gradation *.



Now guess why? Because they are not possible in reality!
In all those pics the weapon is too long and would block the gear bay. Secondly, using such large weapons like 2000lb bombs, or Storm Shadow cruise missile would make the weight balance difficult, because too much weight would be to the front.
Btw, did you see the pic where it carries an LDP on one of the missile stations? Also not possible and the reason why they had to compromise with the LDP on the centerline station.

As you can see, this design flaw, or bad planingi of the EF is the most limiting factor for it to carry heavy strike loads, or fuel tanks, while the Rafale with dedicated pod stations and 5 heavy / wet stations is designed much better.




PRATEEK said:


> Talking about - 2000 lbs bomb ,
> 
> With the accuracy as good as 1-3 m CEP , a 1000lbs paveway4, EGBU-16 can cause damage equivalent to what a generation old 2000lbs gbu10 paveway did .
> This is exactly why F35 wont be needing a 2000lbs bomb



 The F35 is specially designed to carry 2 x 2000lb JDAMs internally!



PRATEEK said:


> Way cheaper and looks more impressive than Rafale with 2/2 MICA IR/EM + triple rack of AASM - isn't it .



Not really, because Rafale can still carry more fuel = has more range and like recent news reports, seems to get Brimstone even before EF. It simply has a complete edge over EF in any strike role and even the CFTs could be added earlier, because they are already developed and tested (UAE seems to want it for their 3 x cruise missile config).
EF was designed as an air superioirty and with multi role capability only as a secondary factor, that's where they went wrong and why the French was smart to leave the project.

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## WARRANT

*Plans For Further Rafale Upgrades Emerge*
Jun 7, 2011





With a new round of Rafale upgrades nearing completion, the French military and defense industry are starting *to look at the long-term future of the twin-engine fighter.*

Although much of the focus is on a potential mid-life upgrade (MLU) that is still several years away, development activities to prepare the technology would have to start significantly sooner. *Potential radar cross-section (RCS) improvements are under consideration, as are equipping the fighter with additional radar arrays for greater spherical coverage and adding thrust vector control to the two M88 turbojets. The MLU configuration is not expected to emerge until around 2025.*

Long-range planning is possible because many of the core capabilities deemed necessary for the domestic user and potential export customers are now nearing the end of development. *With the F3-04T standard, which is due for delivery in 2013, the Dassault Aviation Rafale will receive its active, electronically scanned array RBE2 radar, developed by Thales; an improved missile-warning system (the DDM-NG); and upgraded forward-sight optronics.* Qualification of those elements is due for completion in mid-2012 with delivery anticipated in 2013, says Stephane Reb, program manager for French defense procurement agency DGA.

Another near-term activity is the potential launch of a major upgrade of Rafale&#8217;s Damocles laser targeting pod, which would introduce video capability to the system. The effort is slated to be put on contract this year.

*Damocles uses an infrared sensor, but the French military has also identified a need for a TV channel, which could prove particularly useful in urban operations. That addition would provide a crisper picture to more clearly identify targets. Both IR and TV feeds can be downlinked to ground troops via the Rover system.*

As a result of the changes,* the pod will require a major redesign, Reb says. Because the outer shell of the pod will change slightly, some regression flight testing will be needed.*

*If current plans hold, technology prototypes could be flying next year; the system could be fielded around 2016, depending on funding.
*
The existing processing architecture should allow Rafale to receive needed improvements in the near term without any significant hardware or software changes until the MLU emerges, Reb says. He notes that ideas such as RCS improvement and thrust vector control are just that, ideas. The exact road map &#8220;has still to be built.&#8221;

But that&#8217;s* not to say that elements such as the radar cross section are not already being considered as design changes are implemented. To support a 9-ton thrust version of the M88 turbojet&#8212;sought by potential export customer United Arab Emirates&#8212;Rafale&#8217;s engine intakes would have to be increased by about 1.5 cm. To help mitigate any negative impact on the fighter&#8217;s RCS, some material changes may be made as part of the modification if it goes into production.*

Many of the modifications would be on the systems side, though. For instance, the side arrays would be used to increase radar coverage.* A Thales official notes that, long term, those additions make more sense than fitting the RBE2 active, electronically scanned ar-ay (AESA) radar with a repositioner;· the latter is being considered for the Saab Gripen NG and Eurofighter Typhoon to increase the field of view of their future AESAs.*


*Furthermore, Rafale&#8217;s Specter electronic-warfare suite also is set for more iterations. One effort would be to add a single-ship precision emitter geolocation capability to the fighter. And, government and industry officials are saying that the eventual retirement of the Mirage 2000s Astac electronic intelligence pod means Rafale will take on that role.*

Another improvement being *considered for the electronic warfare system involves enhanced jamming techniques*. However, the DDM&#8209;NG missile-warning upgrade now being developed for Rafale would support use of a directed infrared countermeasures subsystem.

Research and development studies to equip the fighter with satellite communications and software-defined radios are also being considered.

A more far out MLU idea involves integrating the ability to control unmanned aircraft into Rafale.

Meanwhile, the French navy next month expects to inaugurate its second operational unit, 11F, to be collocated with 12F at Landisvisiau near Brest, France.

The move comes as the inventory of single-seat Dassault Aviation Rafale Ms is starting to grow.

Photo: Dassault

Plans For Further Rafale Upgrades Emerge | AVIATION WEEK


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## nightcrawler

DefenceDog: Indian Cinema About Combat Aircraft-MMRCA


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## luckyyy

Saab keeps watch on Indian fighter contest 
By Craig Hoyle

*Saab has not given up hope of winning the Indian air force's medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) contest,* despite having failed to make the service's shortlist when it narrowed the field to two European models early last month.

"We were not selected - at least not yet," said Saab chief executive Håkan Buskhe. Attributing New Delhi's "rather surprising decision" to concerns over the developmental status of his company's Gripen NG, he said "what we can do is give them our explanation if we feel they have misjudged something".

Speaking in London in late May, Buskhe said: "We have a list of things that they have some questions about, and we have been looking at those."

India narrowed its MMRCA contest to the Dassault Rafale and Eurofighter Typhoon, effectively eliminating the Gripen NG, Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Lockheed Martin F-16 and RSK MiG-35 from the $10 billion-plus, 126-aircraft deal.

*But with extended bids from the remaining contenders valid only until late December, *Saab has decided to maintain a presence in support of the campaign in India. "We will wait and see," said Buskhe.

The Saab official also was part of a business delegation that accompanied Swedish prime minister Fredrik Reinfeldt to Brazil last month. "We have a fair chance to make it," Buskhe said, referring to Saab's campaign to offer the Gripen NG to meet the nation's F-X2 fighter requirement.

"We believe we have an extremely strong offer, with the transfer of technology and co-operation with Brazilian industry." The company again faces competition from the Rafale and Super Hornet, with a decision now expected during 2012.

Saab keeps watch on Indian fighter contest


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## sancho

> *Combat aircraft: Boeing "accepts" the decision of New Delhi*
> 
> Barring procedural or unforeseen, Boeing does not intend to challenge the removal of his F-18 Super Hornets from the Indian tender for the acquisition of 126 fighter planes.
> 
> Barring unforeseen or procedural, Boeing does not intend to challenge the removal of his F-18 Super Hornets from the Indian tender for the acquisition of 126 fighter planes.
> 
> "*Despite our disappointment, we accept the decision. We've stopped promoting the F-18 in India which remains a client in the long term,* " said Dennis Muilenburg Tuesday, the chairman of the defense branch of the American group in a meeting with reporters in St. Louis (Missouri).
> 
> The Defense Ministry of India has recently selected the Dassault Rafale and the Eurofighter from EADS-BAE-trio Alenia in the final of the bid estimated at more than $ 10 billion).
> 
> Boeing should console themselves with the forthcoming signing of a contract worth more than $ 4 billion for the sale of 10 aircraft C-17 (six options), according to the Wall Street Journal.



Avions de combat : Boeing «accepte» la décision de New Delhi, Actualités


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## shaktiman2010

HAL Tejas with f-16 and Typhoon along side it. 

14 February 2009


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## fatman17

*Boeing official says engine may have caused Super Hornet MMRCA elimination*

Gareth Jennings Aviation Desk Editor - St Louis, Missouri


The performance of the General Electric F414 engine contributed to the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet being cut from India's Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) competition, a senior company official has said. 

Speaking on 7 June at the company's F/A-18 production line in St Louis, Missouri, Dennis Muilenburg president and chief executive of Boeing Defense, Space and Security, said that, despite having not yet received an official debrief from the Indian Air Force (IAF), his understanding was that the engine failed to meet the competition's requirements during the IAF's technical evaluation. 

The evaluation aircraft, supplied by Boeing, was powered by the standard F414 engine as currently fitted to the US Navy and Royal Australian Air Force fleets. However, the Super Hornet being offered into the MMRCA competition would have been fitted with the more powerful Enhanced Performance Engine (EPE) variant of the F414, giving a 15 to 20 per cent increase in thrust. 

"It is not clear to me what credit was given [during the evaluation, that the Indian Super Hornet] would be fitted with the EPE engine", Muilenburg said. 

According to Muilenburg, both Boeing and Lockheed Martin are still waiting to hear from the US government as to the specific reasons why the F/A-18E/F and F-16IN were eliminated from the MMRCA competition. As the proposed buy would have been a government-to-government Foreign Military Sales agreement, the Indian government will not brief the US-based companies directly. The UAC MiG-35 and Saab JAS 39 Gripen NG were also eliminated from the competition, with only the Eurofighter Typhoon and Dassault Rafale remaining as contenders. 

Muilenburg did not say if or when a debrief with the US government might take place but did say that he does not expect the Indian engine issue to adversely affect the F/A-18E/F's chances in ongoing and future fighter replacement programmes. 

"We have not yet reached the end of [the] growth potential in the Super Hornet engine [with the EPE], and that to me is a good news story," he said. The company is pursuing a number of opportunities with the Super Hornet, including programmes in Brazil, Japan, Malaysia, and the Middle East.

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## kali

What is difference between swing role & omni role aircraft?


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## sancho

kali said:


> What is difference between swing role & omni role aircraft?


 
Basically these names describes the same, that the aircraft is able to do different roles, interception, strikes, recon...if necessary even in the same mission. A dedicated ground attack fighter like our Mig 27, or Jags can not be used in A2A and the Mig 29s so far can not be used in A2G, while the MKI, or Mirage 2000s are multi-, swing-, omni role fighters.
The only real difference is the performance of the fighters in the different roles, because they are often not developed to do all the roles equally good! Fighters like the EF, or Mig 35 are designed / planed mainly for A2A, with A2G roles only as a secondary role. That's why the focus on aerodynamic perfrmance, then on carrying big weapon, or fuel loads, while the F18SH is the exact opposite with a prime focus on carrier operations and strikes and A2A only as a secondary role. The F16IN, Gripen NG and the Rafale on the other hand are more balanced fighters and combine good aerodynamic performance with good strike capabilities as well.

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## KEETARP

sancho said:


> Oh please, why should I? The edge the Rafale has in terms of maturity, tech level, load, or multi role capability is more than obvious, you just need to look at the Libiyan conflict to understand that.



Quite true - Libyan air-space and ground air-defence system are true test of capabilities . Perhaps better if we compare air power and ADS of china+pakistan wrt Libya . 
A fully loaded bomb truck dogfighting its way between co-ordinated ADS/AEW/AWACS/F16/J10 , yes then perhaps . 
All of us will agree if and if - Rafale will be able to carry 3*2000l tanks , 2*2000lbs pgm , 1*damocles pod and will still be supersonic enough to defeat f16 , j10 , flankers .
If you still think Rafale would be able to do so - then yes Rafale is truly unbeatable non-lo jet ever built . 

Poor Libyan forces - where Rafale +F15+Eurofighter flew missions , with only vintage stuff to worry about . 



> I just pointed that there is something strange with the loads EF is carrying in operational strike roles.



Ohh , don't start your speculation . We have seen enough visual proofs . 
And why would eurofighter carry BVRAAM over Libyan air-space , what is there to worry out . sukhoi's???, fulcrums , F16 ???

Just one pic and you start doubting whether Eurofighter would carry MRAAMS along with PGMS 

You even claimed sometime back "no AAM" , until i showed you enlarged image .

*Here is a typical mission load pic of mirage over libya *






Source - &#8211; The High Cost of Precision Attack | Defense Update

So what do i infer from this pic - ?????





> Btw, TWR is for sure not a reason for that, because EF has an excellent TWR even with full load and that's why it impressed so much with that load in Farnborough, but as I said back then, it's not a realistic loadout. Today we even see that it don't carry BVR missiles and mainly just SR missiles and that has to have a reason, because with such a load it offers only the self defence capability of the older Jags and needs dedicated escorts for sure! Similary, the French Mirage 2000D also carries only 2 x SR missiles with strike loads, that's why they get escorted by Mirage 2000-5s with A2A config, while the Rafale carries at least 2 x SR and 2 x MR missiles in any role.



First part of post explains itself , 
And there is High Def video of same 4*PGM + 4 BVRAAM + Litening pod + 2*IRIS-T + 2* supersonic carefree droptanks 
Just one pic and you start doubting whether Eurofighter would carry MRAAMS along with PGMS 




> Exactly and that's why I said, till EF get CFTs, it's strike capability is less then Mirage 2000s. So now you understand it and have to agree with me.



Ok let me get this clear , Jets always fight in formation . 
You won't be sending a single Mirage to win you war . 

Here all 9 hardpoints visible on mirage (3 are wet ) - 






You say - 
We carry 2*droptanks ,1*damocles pod , 2* Magic , 4*PGM on mirage (all 9 used) . Now what is twr ??? . 
Somewhat like in this config 





And compare it to Typhoon - 4*PGM + 1*Litening pod + 2* drop tanks + 4* AIM120 + 2 ASRAAM . Much better TWR than mirage . Much bigger Range than mirage .





So what say now . Which one would be more capable of defending itself and still can take out ground targets .

Add options of replacing 2 pgms with triple racks = 6 brimstone or 2 anti radiation missile .

So at this moment ,until you want to finish a war with single jet (carrying 2 drop tanks + 1 2000lgb + 1 pod simult) then - yes Eurofighter lacks this capability . But at this moment only until CFT negate this .

But you got to give Typhoon some time as they have offered and promised in proposal . 

*Even Rafale didn't have any Laser designator pod on it 12 months back - in a way behind even mig27 of IAFP . 12 months back 
And first flight of Rafale took 10 years before Eurofighter* 




> Now guess why? Because they are not possible in reality!
> In all those pics the weapon is too long and would block the gear bay. Secondly, using such large weapons like 2000lb bombs, or Storm Shadow cruise missile would make the weight balance difficult, because too much weight would be to the front.



True , i agree 



> *Btw, did you see the pic where it carries an LDP on one of the missile stations? Also not possible and the reason why they had to compromise with the LDP on the centerline station.*



Can you explain why - As i see , Litening is much smaller than Aim120 - so it wont be blocking bay doors.



> As you can see, this design flaw, or bad planingi of the EF is the most limiting factor for it to carry heavy strike loads, or fuel tanks, while the Rafale with dedicated pod stations and 5 heavy / wet stations is designed much better.



Rafale in a individual loadout is ahead of eurofighter - yes 

But in a formation of say 10 jets . 
A eurofighter with 2 HOPE/HOSBO + 2 CFT + 1 centreline drop tank + 4*Anti radiation+ 4BVRAAM .
While other with 6 BVRAAMS +4 SRAAM . 
And a third with 6 PGM + Litening pod . 

More than enough for any mission . 






> The F35 is specially designed to carry 2 x 2000lb JDAMs internally!



You might disagree but ADlA don't 

I think this forum missed this French Defence ministry news which cam out 24hrs back .

France zeroes in on lightweight weapon for Rafale



> "France is close to selecting a new, reduced collateral effect weapon for its Dassault Rafale fighters, with the need for a lightweight air-to-surface store having been underlined by its recent combat experience over Libya.
> Discussions involving the air force and France's DGA defence procurement agency have advanced over the recent weeks, with several options understood to be under consideration
> Acquiring a precision-guided, lightweight weapon for the Rafale has interested the French military for some time, with a TDA 68mm rocket pod having been exhibited alongside a Rafale at 2009's Paris air show.
> A new system would provide a strike capability between the aircraft's internal 30mm cannon, and 250kg (550lb) bombs equipped with Sagem's AASM "Hammer" precision guidance and range extension kit."



This was same discussion in World affairs board - 2000 lbs capability might be designed on F35 , but with highly accurate and reinforced new explosive warhead on SDB and 1000lbs bomb , it will have same effect which was planned with 2000lbs bomb in 90's when designs were freezed . 




> Not really, because Rafale can still carry more fuel = has more range and like recent news reports, seems to get Brimstone even before EF. It simply has a complete edge over EF in any strike role and even the CFTs could be added earlier, because they are already developed and tested (UAE seems to want it for their 3 x cruise missile config).
> EF was designed as an air superioirty and with multi role capability only as a secondary factor, that's where they went wrong and why the French was smart to leave the project.



Cant deny that but - *Keep in mind Fuel tanks on rafale are neither Supersonic nor carefree*
Any reason why Rafale would have CFT earlier .


----------



## sancho

PRATEEK said:


> Quite true - Libyan air-space and ground air-defence system are true test of capabilities . Perhaps better if we compare air power and ADS of china+pakistan wrt Libya .



The fact that the US had so much respect for the Libyan air defence, that they didn't used their dedicated EW and SEAD fighters like F18 Growler, F16 CJ until the weakend them with cruise missile and B2 strikes, tells us much about it isn't it? Btw, Rafale went in before that, which also tells us something!




PRATEEK said:


> Ohh , don't start your speculation . We have seen enough visual proofs .
> And why would eurofighter carry BVRAAM over Libyan air-space , what is there to worry out



I don't speculate, I'm talking about facts! 

Here are pics of diffferent EF strike missions in Libya and only at the last it had 1 single BVR missiles. Also if that wouldn't be important, why does the same EF carry even 4 of them and 4 additional WVR missiles in air policing / escort roles (the biggest A2A load of all allied fighters, the others just carry 4, or 6 missiles at max)?






















PRATEEK said:


> Here is a typical mission load pic of mirage over libya
> 
> http://defense-update.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/mirage200d_lgb.jpg
> http://kovy.free.fr/image 1024/M2000-16.jpg
> 
> So what do i infer from this pic - ?????



That this is (as I explaind before) a Mirage 2000 *D* of the French airforce, specialised for strikes and it has the same number of weaponstations like our Mirage 2000s only. That's why it can't carry additional BVR missiles and has to be escorted by Mirage 2000-5, or 2000-9 in dedicated A2A configs like in the second pic. But if they would carry the same strike load on the centerline station, they could still carry up to 3 additional AAMs!

So instead of proving me wrong, you just pointed out once again, that EF in strike load without BVR missiles, is dependent on dedicated escorts, while the advantage of beeing a multi role fighter is, that you can do both A2A and A2G in the same mission. EF consortium calles it "swing role", but it seems they don't really swing isn't it?




PRATEEK said:


> So what say now . Which one would be more capable of defending itself and still can take out ground targets



Don't twist my words, or change the topic. I said that the EF is less useful in strike roles even compared to our current Mirage 2000s, because it just have a single strike config operational now (with 1000lb LGB), while Mirage can carry 500/1000/2000lb LGBs now and with the upgrade it gets even more capable, because then it has AASM, or SPICE PGMs and Scalp cruise missiles as well. I never talked about TWRs, but about the available hardpoints, the weapons and the fuel that can be carried!
These are operational facts today, not just imaginary configs of the EF, that might come around 2018 if we pay for the integration. Stick with the facts and you will see that the EF partners agreed in 2009 to order the T3A fighters, but that they don't have any upgrades. The same Captor M radar, the same DASS EWS, the same engine and IRST and besides Paveway IV and the newer GBU 16, not a single new weapon is cleared for integration so far. Weapons like HOPE/HOSBO, or RBS 15, let alone anti radiation missiles will not be integrated for sure and the consortium companies (MBDA) offer these weapons now to export customers like us, to pay for integration.

So if you really want to compare, or argue, do it on facts and take weapons, or capabilities to account that are available, under integration, or at least under evaluation, but when you do that, you will come to the same conclusion. EF will remain to be inferior to Mirage 2000 in this role, untill it gets CFTs, because that is the only way to counter the design/development flaws of the EF!




PRATEEK said:


> Can you explain why - As i see , Litening is much smaller than Aim120 - so it wont be blocking bay doors



By length, but the diameter is much bigger! These hardpoints are designed to be integrated into the airframe and don't need additional pylons. That means any load has to fit into a specific diameter, but the Litening pod doesn't and the planed LDP developent that was suppose to fit there was cancelled. That's why the centerline station is the only option at the moment and a big limiting factor as well!




PRATEEK said:


> You might disagree but ADlA don't



Not really, you said that 1000lb PGMs will be used instead of 2000lb, which these sources don't talk about. They talk about adding smaller PGMs, or missiles for CAS, or SEAD strikes, because they are more effective against such smaller lighter targets than such bigger LGBs the EF uses. 
The 2000lb PGMs instead will be used against big, high value targets like bunkers and again you can see that in Libya as well, wher the US dropped GBU 31 and the French uses GBU 24 against these kinds of well armored targets and the only way for EF to use them es well are CFTs, or a 2nd fighter for laser guidance. That's why ADlA is integrating 2000lb GBU 24 till the end of the year to Rafale and already has ordered similar class AASMs, while they don't want 1000lb LGBs, or AASM, because they are too much for CAS, or SEAD and not enough for high value targets.




PRATEEK said:


> Cant deny that but - *Keep in mind Fuel tanks on rafale are neither Supersonic nor carefree*
> Any reason why Rafale would have CFT earlier .



Rafale has types of fuel tanks, 1250l which are supersonic and the subsonic 2000l fuel tanks. Because they were developed and tested in the early 2000s (life, not in the windtunnel only) and it seems like the UAE wants to add them:


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## shaktiman2010

why you guy are fighting?... wait till janewary, you wil know official results... have chai biskoot till then...


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## sancho

@ Prateek

P.S. If you take a closer look at this pic, especially at the EFs in the background you will see, that they all are loaded for strikes, but don't carry BVR missiles:

http://www.eurofighter.com/typo3temp/pics/a01bf2f02b.jpg


So we are not talking about a single pic, or a single fighter, but a real EF strike config in it's first real combat missions. There must be a reason for it and I'm curious what this might be?


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## sancho

> *Industry Fronts Money for Typhoon Radar R&D*
> 
> Industry is funding development of the Captor-E active electronically scanned array radar destined for the Eurofighter Typhoon *because the four governments in the fighter program don't have the money* available at this stage.
> 
> Selex Galileo chief executive Fabrizio Giuliani told reporters June 8 that members of the Euroradar consortium and Eurofighter would *provide "pre-funding, not self-funding."*...
> 
> ...*Talks over the releasability of the AESA technology to India is still under debate and depends on the final solution and final negotiations*, Mason said.
> 
> "*We are looking at the manufacturer of certain subsystems in India* software transition in terms of modes and bringing new modes into the radar as well," he said.
> 
> Mason said they had agreed a "large amount of funding" from the Eurofighter governments through to the *first production standard radars scheduled for completion in 2014 for aircraft production the following year*...



Industry Fronts Money for Typhoon Radar R&D - Defense News


- still no government funding for AESA, or other upgrades

- AESA development only pre-funded by the industry

- Indias participation possibly for subsystems

- AESA "planed" to be available for EF in 2015, which increases the risks for the licence production in India


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## Gandhi G in da house

Typhoon was apparently defeated by Pakistani f-16s . This is where it should end . Get the rafale . Ef seems like an expensive piece of junk if that news is true .

Reactions: Like Like:
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## ProsperBD

nick_indian said:


> Typhoon was apparently defeated by Pakistani f-16s . This is where it should end . Get the rafale . Ef seems like an expensive piece of junk if that news is true .


*RAF Eurofighter Typhoons 'beaten by Pakistani F-16s*'

Pakistani pilots flying modernised versions of the 1970s-vintage F-16 Falcon fighter have beaten the RAF's brand-new Eurofighter Typhoon superfighters during air combat exercises in Turkey, according to a Pakistani officer.
This interview with an unnamed but evidently experienced Pakistani Air Force (PAF) F-16 pilot on exchange with the Turkish air force, posted on the official site of the PAF display team, includes the following intriguing passage. (Hat tip to the excellent DEW Line blog for flagging this up.)
*
Q: Any memorable experiences that you would like to share?

A: On one occasion &#8211; in one of the international Anatolian Eagles - PAF pilots were pitted against RAF Typhoons, a formidable aircraft. There were three set-ups and in all three, we shot down the Typhoons. The RAF pilots were shocked.

Q: Any particular reason for your success?

A: NATO pilots are not that proficient in close-in air-to-air combat. They are trained for BVR [Beyond Visual Range] engagements and their tactics are based on BVR engagements. These were close-in air combat exercises and we had the upper hand because close-in air combat is drilled into every PAF pilot and this is something we are very good at.*

The Anatolian Eagle air-combat exercises are hosted by the Turkish air force and would have seen Pakistani pilots on exchange with the Turks flying modernised Turkish "Block 50" F-16s, a much-upgraded version of the original US made 1970s Fighting Falcon, which is now in service with many air forces and assembled under licence in various countries including Turkey.

RAF Eurofighter Typhoons 'beaten by Pakistani F-16s' ? The Register
I was jawdropped by this, I thought it was all a joke


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## luckyyy

nick_indian said:


> Typhoon was apparently defeated by Pakistani f-16s . This is where it should end . Get the rafale . Ef seems like an expensive piece of junk if that news is true .


 
it was not pakistani f-16s but PAF pilots were flying modernised Turkish "Block 50" F-16s...

but it certainly put a question mark on IAF evaluation of MMRCA contenders..
worried about EF becoming another jaguar in IAF ..
selecting a unknown against a wellknown and proven platforms (MIG-35) could backfire in future..


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## sancho

Once again a detailed report about Rafale, it's performance in Libya and future upgrades:



> *France's Rafale fighter proves its 'omnirole' skills*...



France's Rafale fighter proves its 'omnirole' skills


----------



## luckyyy

sancho said:


> Once again a detailed report about Rafale, it's performance in Libya and future upgrades:
> 
> 
> 
> France's Rafale fighter proves its 'omnirole' skills


 
rafale was not put to any stress/test in libya , ...
they were not against a compatative opponent..


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## StormShadow

ProsperBD said:


> *RAF Eurofighter Typhoons 'beaten by Pakistani F-16s*'
> 
> *This interview with an unnamed* but evidently experienced Pakistani Air Force (PAF) F-16 pilot on exchange with the Turkish air force, posted on the official site of the PAF display team, includes the following intriguing passage. (Hat tip to the excellent DEW Line blog for flagging this up.)
> *
> *


*
That tells enough about the story.*


----------



## Gandhi G in da house

StormShadow said:


> That tells enough about the story.


 
why have the brits not made a counter-claim ?


----------



## ramu

nick_indian said:


> Typhoon was apparently defeated by Pakistani f-16s . This is where it should end . Get the rafale . Ef seems like an expensive piece of junk if that news is true .


 
It could just be a planted news to get India to buy Rafales. IAF is a better judge and so is MoD. Leave it to them.


----------



## StormShadow

nick_indian said:


> why have the brits not made a counter-claim ?


No authentic source, no pilots name. It's just a matter of time when britan responds.


----------



## luckyyy

StormShadow said:


> No authentic source, no pilots name. It's just a matter of time when britan responds.


 
the source is a members post on a militry forum...
a year old message posted by a member on a forum in july 2010 , nobody even bother to reply to that message that time but then it takes one year to cerculate that massge among different forum and today the same post became a headline..
do we expect RAF to came up to clearify on everything that members post on militry forums..
WAFF | Greece & Turkey Defence Forum | World's Armed Forces Forum: paf pilot interview pak-tuaf relations


----------



## sudhir007

France's Rafale fighter proves its 'omnirole' skills

France's Rafale fighter programme is midway through what could be a pivotal year in the Dassault type's potentially half-century service history. Already involved in NATO-led combat operations over Libya, the aircraft will return to frontline duty in Afghanistan inside the next two months. Its industrial backers are, meanwhile, edging seemingly closer to a long-awaited first export sale.

One of three fighters now in production in western Europe, along with the Eurofighter Typhoon and Saab Gripen, the Rafale has been in French military service since 2004, when it entered use with the nation's naval aviation wing.

Air force operations began two years later, and by late May the users had recorded more than 64,000 flight hours with a combined total of 94 aircraft. In September, Dassault and its programme partners, which include Sagem, Snecma and Thales, will celebrate the delivery of their 100th aircraft, including four development examples.

While the French navy's initial batch of 10 carrier-optimised Rafale Ms entered use with its 12F unit in an air-to-air-only standard dubbed F1, the fighter's capabilities have evolved greatly through two subsequent production standards. Each added new air-to-surface weapons and further capabilities, and as evidenced by the missions being flown in support of France's Harmattan commitment to NATO's Operation Unified Protector over Libya, the aircraft is now a truly potent asset.






Dassault describes its Rafale as being an "omnirole" fighter, a tag that it says denotes the type's ability to perform multiple mission types simultaneously. This differs from the widely adopted multi-role description used by its rivals largely as a result of the aircraft's ability to provide its pilot with data fused from onboard sensors, it says. These range from its Thales RBE2 fire-control radar, Spectra electronic warfare suite and passive front sector optronics equipment to the seekers on its MBDA Mica air-to-air missiles.

"The intention from the beginning was to develop a joint and omnirole Rafale," says Stéphane Reb, programme manager for France's DGA defence procurement agency.

"It was intended to perform air-to-air missions, deterrence, air-to-ground and reconnaissance," adds Reb.

This vision was realised in July 2008, with the introduction to service of the current F3 production-standard aircraft, the broad capabilities of which have been showcased during the Libyan campaign since hostilities commenced in mid-March.

Flight International visited the air force's Rafale detachment at Solenzara air base in Corsica in late May, just as NATO stepped up its campaign against forces loyal to Libyan leader Col Muammar Gaddafi.

With the Dassault Mirage 2000D strike aircraft and Mirage 2000-5 fighters that had operated from the Mediterranean island early in the campaign having relocated to Souda Bay, Crete, in late April, the flightline is now dominated by the service's newest addition, earning it the nickname Rafaletown.

*GROUND SUPPORT*

A detachment of seven Rafales - a mix of single-seat Cs and twin-seat Bs - is being operated from the site, accompanied by three Mirage F1 reconnaissance aircraft carrying Thales Presto wet-film camera pods. The commitment totals 15 aircrews from the 1/91 Gascogne and 1/7 Provence squadrons for the Rafale force, and five for the F1s. Around 100 ground support personnel are also involved, with roughly 70% of these associated with the newer type.






French strike aircraft were already in the air when the order was approved for the start of the then-US-led Odyssey Dawn operation on 19 March. "We were involved since day one, hour one," says the current chief of the Rafale detachment, who for operational security reasons can be named only as Lt Col Pierre.

Rafales dropped their first weapons against Libyan targets on 21 March, with these early strikes having been launched from Saint-Dizier air base on the French mainland. Two days later, a major raid also involving navy Rafale Ms flying from the aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle attacked a Libyan air force base 250km (135nm) inland, and saw France's debut combat use of MBDA's Scalp-EG cruise missile. Identical to the Storm Shadow weapons employed by UK's Royal Air Force Panavia Tornado GR4 strike aircraft earlier in the conflict, they were used to take out infrastructure targets during the French mission.






Through its transition to NATO control on 31 March and beyond, the Libyan operation has maintained a high operational tempo. By late May the Rafale detachment at Solenzara had logged around 2,200 flight hours, with "zero no-fly days" reported since the type's arrival. Typically, its crews fly between a combined four and eight sorties a day, each with a transit time of around 2h before they reach the North African coast.

"They can be 6-8h flights, depending on the mission," says Pierre. Due to this extended endurance, the aircraft rely on the provision of tanker support from French air force Boeing C-135s and other coalition assets, such as US Air Force KC-135s. Three or four in-flight refuellings are required on each mission, and more than 1,500 have been performed so far.

Although air force officials say the long-range missions cause no problems with regard to airframe wear and tear, and pilots hail the fighter's cockpit ergonomics for minimising crew fatigue, the service has requested a move away from Corsica. If approved, this should see the detachment relocate to Sigonella in Sicily, and reduce combined transit times by between 90min and 2h per sortie.

The Rafale's main weapons in Libya are Sagem's AASM precision-guided bomb, in its GPS/INS-guided GBU-38 guise, and Raytheon's GBU-12 Paveway II, which have release weights of 226-250kg (500-550lb). By late last month more than 100 had been dropped, with the latter, laser-guided type now being used more frequently due to the clear weather conditions experienced in the operating area.






Libya represents the first opportunity for the French air force to employ the Thales Damocles targeting pod, although the navy gave the system its combat debut over Afghanistan in late 2010.

Also referred to as the Hammer, the AASM weapon has impressed during the campaign to date. Incorporating a precision guidance kit and propulsion system, the design will eventually be available for use with standard bombs weighing between 125kg and 1,000kg, although a 250kg version is the only one currently in service. Sagem cites a range capability of more than 32nm from high altitude, or 8nm from low level.

Launches can also be made from an off-axis angle of up to 90°, while up to six weapons can be fired against individual targets in a single pass and with just one trigger press.

*ILLEGAL MOVEMENT*

An AASM was employed in late March when an air force Rafale destroyed a Soko G-2 Galeb that had violated the UN-mandated no-fly zone over Libya. A French Boeing E-3F airborne warning and control system aircraft had detected the illegal movement near Misrata, but the trainer had landed before permission came to shoot it down, sources say. With the Sagem weapon lacking the ability to strike moving targets - a function that will become operational with a laser-guidance update in 2013 - the aircraft is believed to have been stationary when it was hit.

The Rafale's ability to adapt to the changing nature of the Galeb strike reflects the flexibility needed to react to events in Libya. While a master air campaign plan is issued 48h in advance of a sortie and a more detailed air tasking order arrives 24h before the aircraft fly, Pierre says his aircraft are routinely re-tasked once airborne. "Air-to-surface, air-to-air, all weather, day and night. Over Libya we are flying those kinds of omnirole missions," he says. "It is very easy and practical to task us - it reduces the complexity of missions and reduces the tasking plan." According to the French air force, a two-ship formation of Rafales can provide NATO with the same payload and situational awareness as a flight of four Mirage 2000Ds and two Mirage 2000-5s.

Solenzara-based aircraft also typically fly daily missions over Libya carrying Thales's Reco-NG/Areos digital reconnaissance pod, which can obtain pre- and post-strike imagery, and also record video footage of attacks.

Pierre says pilots can transmit pictures to the imagery intelligence cell at their operating base while still in the air, or alternatively to Rafale Ms aboard the Charles de Gaulle if potential targets are found. This can save precious hours against the previous-generation Mirage F1 and Presto combination.

"The Rafale really is a gathering platform. You're being fed by different means - that can be via AWACS using Link 16, or from your wingman, all with no radio communications," Pierre says. "All the information you can get from your sensors is vital."

Urgent operational requirements have emerged from Libya, and also from Afghanistan before it. The air force is now seeking a weapon with a reduced collateral effect to give it a lighter-weight option than its 250kg AASM. Candidates include MBDA's dual-mode Brimstone missile, now used by RAF Tornado GR4s, and guided rockets.






It is also urgently looking to field versions of the Hammer that have been optimised for use against armoured targets and in a close air support scenario. Development work on the latter has already been performed, with the new mode to enable the bomb to descend on its target in a corkscrew motion from above, rather than be fired from stand-off range.

These and other enhancements will boost the ability of pilots to perform their duty in Libya, and also in Afghanistan, where they will return to duty on 1 August. Noting that the type made its offensive debut in 2007, Reb says: "When we say that the Rafale is a combat-proven aircraft, it's not only words."

Getting it right when it comes to introducing new weapons and sensors is of critical importance to France, as by 2015 it will have streamlined its combat aircraft fleets to operating the type alongside only the Mirage 2000-5 and 2000N strike aircraft.

By 2030 the Rafale will be its sole manned fighter, although the air force could also start to field an unmanned combat air system from around this time.

Signed in December 2009 and covering the delivery of 60 aircraft, the programme's fourth order will extend production up to the end of 2019. Paris's commitment takes to 180 the number of Rafales to be produced for its air force and navy, from a total commitment for 286 aircraft: 228 B/Cs and 58 Ms, respectively. "With the other aircraft that we still have to order, we plan to keep the production line running until 2025," says Reb.

The current rate is set to deliver 11 aircraft a year, with around six on the line at any one time at Dassault's Merignac site. The goal is for each aircraft to spend around five months between the arrival of its main structures and customer acceptance, with roughly 70% of the activity at the site concerned with test activities, such as on fuel and hydraulics systems and flight controls.

Growing combat experience will only strengthen Dassault's efforts to sell the Rafale to international customers, and it now has several strong prospects. The company is waiting on the outcome of the roughly 36-aircraft F-X2 competition in Brazil, where its product had the open support of former president Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva in a battle against the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and the Gripen NG. A decision is expected to be made in 2012.

The Rafale has also reached the final two candidates in India's medium multi-role combat aircraft contest, with the Typhoon also in contention to supply the nation's air force with at least 126 fighters.

*SPECULATION*

Fresh speculation has also emerged over the past few weeks with regard to a long-expected deal with the United Arab Emirates, where the French air force already bases some of its aircraft. Dassault says it would have no problem with increasing its current build rate, having previously run the Merignac line at a rate of two aircraft a month. "We've done a study to up to treble the current rate, and could do it," says Jean-Marc Gasparini, the company's vice-president military aircraft. "It's a problem we would like to have."

Five of the Rafales to be delivered this year have already been handed over, and among those currently on the line is the 100th to have been built: a C-model fighter for the air force.






Another milestone should be reached in June, when a second navy squadron - 11F - will begin operations. MBDA is also within weeks of delivering its first AM39 Exocet Block 2 Mod 2 anti-ship missiles to arm the service's Rafale Ms. Its first, F1-standard fighters remain in storage, but will be modified to the F3 configuration before entering use again between 2014 and 2017.

All early-production aircraft will eventually be brought up to the latest standard, while further upgrades are planned over the coming years. "The main aim is to keep the Rafale at the top level of performance and capability," says Reb. The next standard to enter frontline use, in mid-2013, is dubbed F3-04T. This will introduce an active electronically scanned array with the RBE2 radar, the laser-guided AASM, improved front sector optronics and MBDA's DDM-NG passive missile approach warning system.

Down the line, the European company's Meteor beyond visual-range air-to-air missile should enter French use around 2018, although Reb says this could occur "faster, if necessary". The DGA late last year ordered its first 200 of the weapon, which is also being developed for Germany, Italy, Spain, Sweden and the UK.

Funded research and development studies are already looking towards possible enhancements to be made several years beyond this point. Reb identifies areas such as a reduction to the aircraft's radar cross-section, expanded flight envelope, human/machine interface enhancements and new communications equipment and weapons. A mid-life update is also planned from around 2025, but the requirements for this have yet to be defined.

For now, the French air force and navy are meeting requirements with their modest fleets of the new-generation type, which are expanding slowly due to budgetary constraints. However, this ability could soon be tested as never before, as a protracted Libyan campaign would be in addition to the operational demands of Afghanistan. If the Unified Protector/Harmattan mission is to run on, the air force's commitment will continue to be maintained by drawing pilots and personnel from squadrons on a rotation basis. "It's long-term planned; we can sustain the operation," says Pierre.

"In Libya we use the Rafale to 100% of its capability as an omnirole aircraft. In a single mission you do reconnaissance, air-to-air and air-to-ground. It's a real pleasure to fly this aeroplane," he adds.

To find out about the Rafale's performance, read Peter Collins' flight test report:
*
INDUSTRY PARTNERS TEST NEXT PACKAGE OF ENHANCEMENTS*

FRANCE'S most recent production order for the Dassault Rafale will lead to the delivery from mid-2013 of 60 aircraft with an enhanced range of "omnirole" capabilities. Spanning the sensor, propulsion and weapons spheres, the developments are the focus of advanced activities involving partner companies Thales, Snecma and Sagem, plus the French military's CEV flight test organisation.

One of the most important advances will be the introduction of an active electronically scanned array for the RBE2 radar. Now a key equipment requirement in most fighter sales campaigns around the globe, the technology promises increased detection range, improved reliability and reduced maintenance demands through-life.

Thales is now working on its first series production examples of the AESA sensor, while a performance evaluation test campaign is under way at the CEV's Cazaux site. A modified Mirage 2000 is currently being flown with a Rafale nose section that accommodates a test version of the active array, with an adapted Falcon 20 business jet also being used to support the effort.

The AESA integration was validated on a Rafale in February, and Thales says flight tests so far have demonstrated that "all aspects of the radar's performance comply with the technical specifications of the contract".

Any future export sale of the Rafale to nations such as Brazil or India would contain the new sensor configuration.

Propulsion system supplier Snecma, meanwhile, will deliver its first enhanced examples of the M88 engine to Dassault's Merignac final assembly site in November, after completing the last test activities on the -4E version this month.

Drawing on the activities of Snecma's ECO development programme of 2004-07, the new standard will reduce ownership costs and maintenance demands, and will also have the growth potential to increase available power from a current maximum of 17,000lb (75kN) to roughly 19,800lb.

Key changes include a new high-pressure turbine, three new HP compressor stages and some changes to materials and geometry. More than 70 test flights have been performed, and "all the test objectives have been met", says M88 project leader Bruce Pontoizeau. "If anyone wants a 9t [rated] engine it can be there in the programme," he adds.

Such an enhancement would be of particular interest to the United Arab Emirates, which has long been interested in acquiring the Rafale, but has requested that it be made available with an increased power output.

Sagem had by late May delivered 260 M88 engines, with a further 146 on firm order.

Another capability that is to come with the next batch of aircraft will be a laser-guided version of Sagem's AASM Hammer precision-guided bomb.

Used extensively during France's current involvement in Libya, the weapon is now available with GPS/INS guidance.

This will also be combined with an infrared seeker in use from 2012. But while the AASM boasts all-weather capability and a stand-off range of more than 32nm (60km), it lacks the ability to strike moving targets.

A new laser-guided version was demonstrated in three test firings last year. These included a strike against a target from a vertical trajectory, another which replicated the future availability of an advanced targeting pod, and a shot in which the weapon tracked a laser spot from a turret-mounted ground illuminator travelling at 43kt (80km/h) and replicating a moving vehicle. It hit the target less than 1m (3ft) away from the spot.

Three qualification tests will be conducted next year against "representative targets".


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## localoca

sancho said:


> Because that's only a dream Boeing has


 France wished they had Boeing dreams... and U.S.A Black budget...


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## DESERT FIGHTER

ramu said:


> It could just be a planted news to get India to buy Rafales. IAF is a better judge and so is MoD. Leave it to them.


 
If it was a planted news they woud habve made a STRONG counter-claim ......... Coz they r also pitting there jet for indian mrca!


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## notsuperstitious

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> If it was a planted news they woud habve made a STRONG counter-claim ......... Coz they r also pitting there jet for indian mrca!


 
Most companies will not respond to 'unnamed' sources news, until it becomes a big issue for them. My British company has that policy.

If they take the news seriously, irrespective of real or fake, there would have beee some PR response. The assumption that they will not respond to a ''real'' news is plain incorrect, they will respond depending on how seriously the news will affect them.

Apparently, not much.

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## praveen007

*Rafale Upgrade Ready in 2012
.
.
.

AESA Radar Ready for Production*
.
Separately, DGA is flight-testing
further improvements to the
Rafale, says Lt. Col. Olivier
Bordes, director of Rafale flight
testing at the agency&#8217;s facility at
Cazaux air base. &#8220;Now, we are
focusing on the Link 16 and
AESA radar integration, and their
test and evaluation phase is
being carried out in June and
July.&#8221; Final qualification of the
RBE-2 AESA radar will be the
major development milestone for
this year, Bordes said.
This radar will equip all 60
aircraft of the 4th production
batch, ordered in December
2009 and comprising 10 Rafale M
carrier fighters and 25 Rafale C
single-seaters and 25 Rafale B
two-seaters for the air force.
Deliveries are scheduled from
mid-2013 to end 2019. The
current production rate is of 11
aircraft per year, a remarkably
low figure that nonetheless
allows the program to remain
economically viable, and
Dassault Aviation to turn a profit,
despite the lack of export orders.
The AESA radar will improve
detection range and the ability to
detect targets with small radar
cross-section, and will be
compatible with the future
Meteor air-to-air missile of which
France ordered an initial batch in
December 2010 for delivery in
2018. Flight-testing is carried out
with a modified Falcon 20
business jet and a hybrid test-
bed which combines a Mirage
2000B two-seat airframe fitted
with the Rafale&#8217;s nose and AESA
radar. The aircraft sports DGA
markings and a ghost-grey color
scheme.

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## brational

Rafale wud be good choice for India as the IAF is well acquinted with French systems. The previous platform (mirage) was highly successful with IAF. EF were better if there were only one country involved in development. French are always a reliable supplier and it is time tested(post pokhran) . The Concerned area are the effectiveness and capability of the RBE2 and the A2G role of the aircraft.. The libiyan excercise is still not clear.. Another gr8 part is the weapon load carrying capacity of Rafale.. Let see what MoD ends up with.. I am with Rafale..

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## kingdurgaking

brational said:


> Rafale wud be good choice for India as the IAF is well acquinted with French systems. The previous platform (mirage) was highly successful with IAF. EF were better if there were only one country involved in development. French are always a reliable supplier and it is time tested(post pokhran) . The Concerned area are the effectiveness and capability of the RBE2 and the A2G role of the aircraft.. The libiyan excercise is still not clear.. Another gr8 part is the weapon load carrying capacity of Rafale.. Let see what MoD ends up with.. I am with Rafale..


 
Another good thing about Rafale is .. 100% ToT ... even on Radar ... but I am not sure on Engine ...
But Dassault has agreed on porting Kaveri on Rafale..


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## luckyyy

kingdurgaking said:


> Another good thing about Rafale is .. 100% ToT ... even on Radar ... but I am not sure on Engine ...
> But Dassault has agreed on porting Kaveri on Rafale..


 
rafale will be just another licence menufecturing...


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## sancho

luckyyy said:


> rafale will be *just another licence menufecturing*...


 
 Of course, just like any other MMRCA contender would be, because that's the aim behind it!


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## sancho

> *No pressure from US with regard to M-MRCA deal: Antony*
> 
> New Delhi, Jun 14 (PTI) After rejecting American companies in the bid to procure 126 Medium-Multi Role Combat Aircraft (M-MRCA) deal, India today denied there was any pressure from the US to favour its firms in the race."It is natural that every company try to sell their product and for that they do everything needed. I don't accept that is a pressure," Defence Minister A K Antony said here.Stressing that the M-MRCA procurement process was completely transparent he said, "Our procurement is not a political decision. Everybody gets a level-playing field and the ultimate decision would be on the basis of strictly professional decision. There is no political interference." He was talking to reporters after flagging off a mountaineering expedition by the Indian Army to Mount Manaslu on May 9.A team of mountaineers led by Colonel Ajay Kothiyal, a recipient of Kirti Chakra and Shaurya Chakra, created a world record when 15 of its member summited the 8,163 meter high peak.Two American firms Lockheed Martin and Boeing had participated in the 126-fighter aircraft deal for the Indian Air Force (IAF), along with European Consortium's Eurofighter Typhoon, French Rafale and Swedish Gripen.Going ahead with the procurement process, India recently down-selected Rafale and Eurofighter Typhoon for commercial bidding process.



No pressure from US with regard to M-MRCA deal: Antony, IBN Live News


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## brational

luckyyy said:


> rafale will be just another licence menufecturing...



Boss is there any other option in MMRCA tender? So Chill Yaar.. Let see how we can implement our licenses in shaping out AMCA a truly 5th gen figher craft...


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## brational

kingdurgaking said:


> Another good thing about Rafale is .. 100% ToT ... even on Radar ... but I am not sure on Engine ...
> But Dassault has agreed on porting Kaveri on Rafale..


 
Agreed.. But goin in for a Kaveri, I think the french should hv offred anything like TVC engine.. This wud hv a great combi - Beast in a beauty (New Term although)..


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## brational

Humare pikistani bhaiyon khahan gaye? Yaar Kuch to input daalo.. 11 biilion dollers are in stake.. We need ur inputs if any...


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## sancho

> *Rafale Web documentary*



Rafale News: Rafale Web documentary


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## sancho

*Crossposting from the MP forum:*









> *Striking Lybia From The Sea**
> 
> Combat Aircraft magazine , June 2011, page 59*
> 
> ...*Rafale success*
> 
> For the French navy, the Lybian operation, the 1st significant engagement of the Rafale in a major conflict has proved an unconditional success: "*The Rafale is a brilliant fighter capable of performing the whole spectrum of tactical missions*" says 'Harry'. "For instance we have *carried out strike missions and recce missions without any dedicated escort*, our RBE2 radar , our Link 16 and our Spectra electronic warfare suite helping us maintain a very good all-round situational awareness. if intercepted, we could have engaged and destroyed any airborne threat with our MICA's during the very same missions. The Rafale's sensor and armament suite have also proved extremely effective and remarkably flexible. I will take one example: the Rafale's weapons system has not been specifically designed for the destruction of ennemy air defenses (DEAD) role. With all our sensors - the high-resolution radar mode, the Spectra suite, the Damocles and the FSO optronics system- we were nevertheless *fully capable of detecting, localizing and engaging enemy surface-to-air missile sites*, and we destroyed SA-3 and SA-6 SAM systems with the AASM including some mobile systems. This was a significant achievement. I would like to stress the fact that Flotille 12F is one of the very few units in the world which can carry such a large array of missions from a carrier deck, from reconnaissance to nuclear deterrence, from DEAD to anti-ships attacks, from close air support to air defense".
> Operation Harmattan has demonstrated once again, that naval power and air power from the sea are decisive tools in modern warfare...



Credits to Olybrius!


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## marcos98

Meanwhile:

*RAF strips jets for spare parts: Typhoons torn up for Libya air fleet*



> The RAF is tearing apart state-of-the-art fighter jets for spare parts to keep warplanes flying over Libya.
> 
> Three Typhoons, costing £125million each, are being cannibalised at RAF Coningsby in Lincolnshire to cover a desperate shortage of parts.
> 
> Eight Typhoons are taking part in bombing raids and enforcing the no-fly zone over Libya. The jets also patrol the Falkland Islands and provide the Quick Reaction Alert force protecting UK airspace.


Read more: RAF strips jets for spare parts: Typhoons torn up for Libya air fleet | Mail Online

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## luckyyy

the bad part of thr rafalle is that the weapons are too costly , you can have them for once to threathen the enemy but can't fight a long war coz they are too costly ..

infect libyan war has shown that how French finances in total disarray due to libyan confilt race to financial disaster because they had relied on a "rapid collapse" of Gaddafi. It turn out to be a huge mistake ...
if fighting a war against libya which hardly has a air power can trun the a country finances of france up-side down , how india going to do in any agreesion against pakistan or china with these costly items...
AGGRESSION AGAINST LIBYA: OBAMA INCREASINGLY ISOLATED! | Facebook

my point is that to threaten the enemy , you can have these costly items but once you are in a war , you need cheap weaponery which you can keep firing...


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## angeldemon_007

^^^
What a good point......I still think we should go for Rafale because most of the weapons for EF are also provided by same european firms like MBDA. Good thing with partnering with France is that we can build a set of A2A, A2G, anti-ship etc. weapons which could be used on Rafale and produce them cheaply here in India because lets be fair IAF is world's 4th largest airforce and they use alot ammunition which most of the time also gets wasted, so it would be better if DRDO also pays attention towards this apart from Astra because we have a set of fighter planes being build indigenously which will need these weapons purchasing them from foreign vendors would be too expensive....


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## sathya

we should get deal for joint development of rafale upgrade with france.... 
otherwise rafale upgradation will end up like mirage2000.


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## praveen007

Indias Fighter Fetish | Flashpoints
.
.
*Indias Fighter Fetish*
Strategic considerations played no part
whatsoever in Indias down-selection of the EADS
Eurofighter and the Dassault Rafale for its lucrative
medium multirole combat fighter aircraft
(MMRCA) competition.So argues Ashley J. Tellis
of the Carnegie Endowment for International
Peace in a fascinating analysis that runs counter
to many other assessments of the Indian
decision, which beggared American belief for its
rejection of the two US entrants in spite of the
increasingly close ties between Washington and
New Delhi.
I argued in an earlier Diplomat post that the
Indians had down-selected two aircraft from an
initial field of six back in April by feeding both their
technical evaluation of the contenders and the
countrys political priorities into their decision
matrix. Thats wrong, Tellis says: the technical
evaluation alone informed Indias decision to
green-light the two European aircraft at the
expense of Boeing, Lockheed Martin and the other
hopefuls.
Tellis may well be right, and his account of Indias
technical evaluation process is both detailed and
convincing. India is a country with afetish about
process, he observes, and this obsession 
perhaps regrettably  allowed the air force to
make a purely technical judgement that wasnt
influenced in any way by budgetary sense,
international politics past or present, or even by
the overall range of missions that the aircraft
could handle. They picked the two speediest,
most manoeuvrable planes, and that was all there
was to it.
Perhaps Indias decision-makers really have
become blinkered to all non-technical
considerations when it comes to military
procurement. But there would be two surprising
implications to this, if it were true.
The first is that the Indian defence establishment 
which has a shabby procurement record, strewn
with cases of graft and with car-crash
programmes where the fetish about process was
nowhere to be found would have to have
cleaned up its act to an extraordinary degree in
order to have run the MMRCA competition along
purely technical lines.
Such a conversion isnt entirely implausible. A.K.
Antony, the Indian defence minister, is well
known for his anti-corruption zeal, and the
corruption scandals that continue to plague the
government may have convinced those
concerned that the big-ticket MMRCA deal, with all
the scrutiny it would attract, needed to be whiter
than white. The thing is, this wasnt Antonys call.
In late April, the Indian media reported that
Antonydelivered a speech to senior army and air
force officers  the same men who made their
technical selection of the Eurofighter and Rafale 
in which he appealed to them not to succumb to
corrupt practices. Unless Antony was preaching
to the converted, he knows what many suspect:
that the reform of Indian procurement is far from
complete, and that the technical evaluation
conducted by some officers tends to improve
given the right financial encouragement.
The second is that it would show how little the
West understands its new, and most important,
Asian ally. US President Barack Obama, French
President Nicolas Sarkozy and British Prime
Minister David Cameron all made personal sales
calls to New Delhi in the run-up to the MMRCA
decision to lobby for their countries entrants (and
for other contracts besides)  trips that were
completely pointless if India is in fact impervious
to this kind of pressure. The US Ambassador to
India, Timothy J. Roemer, who quit when the
rejection of the two US aircraft was announced,
must have had dreadful intelligence on the
country he was working in, if he thought the
value of US-Indian strategic ties would count in
what was a strictly technical contest. But this, too,
is not totally implausible. Potential buyers often
say one thing and mean another, while salesmen
might hear only what they want to hear.
Yet if Telliss reading of the MMRCA contest is
correct, then this programme is a rarity  a
museum piece  in its exclusion of non-technical
factors. Personal contacts, lobbying and special
favours are the lifeblood of big business and
international politics, and this is doubly so in the
world of defence, whose wheels are habitually
greased either by financial or strategic interests. If
Antony truly has freed Indias procurement
processes from these iniquities, then he has done
an even better job of cleaning up his countrys
defence sector than people give him credit for.

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## razgriz19

marcos98 said:


> Meanwhile:
> 
> *RAF strips jets for spare parts: Typhoons torn up for Libya air fleet*
> 
> 
> Read more: RAF strips jets for spare parts: Typhoons torn up for Libya air fleet | Mail Online


 
shortage of parts...
isn't BAE suppose to provide parts for typhoon..??
wow they really dont have any money left


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## praveen007

*http://www.militaryaerospace.com/index/display/avi-wire-news-display/1438706592.html
.
.
A very intresting article* 
.
In view of the above, is there a reason for the US to still feel unhappy towards 'ungrateful' India? More importantly, would it cause a setback to Indo US relations, as believed in some political/ diplomatic quarters? Perhaps, the best person to answer the question was the US Ambassador Roemer himself when he stated that the US-India relationship continues on a "positive historic trajectory" and that, "the horizons of our relationship truly have no limits". That sums it up. The IAF's choice is based on technical evaluation. It is quite straightforward and there is nothing political about it. It is just a process; the other programmes (US and Russian)were falling short in the technical standards needed by the IAF. It is good that there is progress in the MMRCA competition. The commercial negotiations will start now. -former Air Chief Marshal (Retd) S. Krishnaswamy.
The IAF has diligently completed the evaluation and selection process keeping in mind the capabilities required in the medium multi-role combat aircraft. Eurofighter Typhoon and Dassault Rafale were found b compliant with the IAF requirements. Many factors are taken into consideration during the technical evaluation and flying tests including life cycle maintenance, other facilities, etc. It was a pure selection process, political and commercial negotiations will start now. -*Former Chief of the Air Staff Air Chief Marshal(Retd) F.H. Major I still consider the US made Boeing F/A-18 and Lockheed Martin F-16IN the best. And if I were asked to select between Eurofighter and Dassault Rafale, I would go for Rafale. -A Former Chief of the Air Staff on the condition of anonymity 
.
.
....................for full please visit above link*

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## brational

EF certainly face Spare & Parts issues.. As EADS has diffrent arrangements with Different AFs.. Moreover, the EF partner countries are having diffrenences over the Manufacturing Plant locations.. It is quite understandable why RAF is facing these problems, that too during mission emergencies.. The EFs overall credibility as a supplier is questionable..
On the other hand, Rafale has proved its combat-worthiness over Libiya, specially its Omni Role capability.. The French have really worked hard to make the Fighter a real beast.. Get Set Go Rafale..

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## sathya

spain got trainer contract... most of the NSG countries are getting something... interesting 
i guess india is going for EF


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## SpArK

sathya said:


> spain got trainer contract... most of the NSG countries are getting something... interesting
> *i guess india is going for EF*


 
The UK have been given the Hawk order,the Germans can be kept happy with U-boat upgrades and extra U-214s to eventually replace all the U-209s.

Its Rafale all the way.

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## DMLA

What is this fetish of "Keeping everyone happy"? I know it is a part of indian psyche but for God's sake we are talking about weapons not vegetables!!! The armed forces should be allowed to go with whatever they deem fit and best. I am quite sure indian armed forces, MOD and the govt. are not driven by any such notion of keeping everyone happy... with the possible exception of US where I would assert its more a question of necessity!

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## Abingdonboy

DMLA said:


> ]What is this fetish of "Keeping everyone happy"? [/B]I know it is a part of indian psyche but for God's sake we are talking about weapons not vegetables!!! The armed forces should be allowed to go with whatever they deem fit and best. I am quite sure indian armed forces, MOD and the govt. are not driven by any such notion of keeping everyone happy... with the possible exception of US where I would assert its more a question of necessity!


 
It's about turning economic and military power into global political power- creating jobs and a positive image in these countries (UK,US,Russia,France etc) that means that India is slowly but surely increasing their presence on the global stage. Literally "buying friends". India buying the BAE Hawk and C-17 in countries with rising unemployment and struggling growth figures are very welcomed and save thousands of their citizens' jobs. Let me assure this news of India saving thousands of jobs all over the world is create a very positive impression of it whereas the news coming out of its neighbour is doing the opposite.


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## brational

luckyyy said:


> the bad part of thr rafalle is that the weapons are too costly , you can have them for once to threathen the enemy but can't fight a long war coz they are too costly ..
> 
> infect libyan war has shown that how French finances in total disarray due to libyan confilt race to financial disaster because they had relied on a "rapid collapse" of Gaddafi. It turn out to be a huge mistake ...
> if fighting a war against libya which hardly has a air power can trun the a country finances of france up-side down , how india going to do in any agreesion against pakistan or china with these costly items...
> AGGRESSION AGAINST LIBYA: OBAMA INCREASINGLY ISOLATED! | Facebook
> 
> my point is that to threaten the enemy , you can have these costly items but once you are in a war , you need cheap weaponery which you can keep firing...



I think Rafale has a open system architecture.. Indegenous weapons like ASTRA and other weapons like Russian R series missiles and ground attack ammunitions can be easily integated into it.. So the cost can be taken care of in the long run..


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## sancho

sathya said:


> spain got trainer contract... most of the NSG countries are getting something... interesting
> i guess india is going for EF


 
If you mean the Pilatus PC 7 trainer, then it's Switzerland, not Spain.




DMLA said:


> What is this fetish of "Keeping everyone happy"? I know it is a part of indian psyche but for God's sake we are talking about weapons not vegetables!!! The armed forces should be allowed to go with whatever they deem fit and best. I am quite sure indian armed forces, MOD and the govt. are not driven by any such notion of keeping everyone happy... with the possible exception of US where I would assert its more a question of necessity!


 
I agree that we shouldn't keep everyone happy and that we should get those arms that serves the purpose of securing our country at best, but it should be clear that defence deals have a strategic part as well, be it political, or in case of MMRCA an industrial. If we let the forces decide alone, we only get one side, but we have to look at who gives the ToT, or the offset deals that benefits our industry at most as well. 
Giving the US for example some deals to get them closer to us, by the fact that they were mainly against us for decades isn't a bad idea from an strategic point of, but could be combined with certain defence deals like C130J, P8I, Apache, or M777 howitzers (partly UK too), because these were also very capable arms, that increases the capability of our forces. MMRCA on the other side will play not only a cruicial role in the defence of our country, but also to improve our indigenous capabilities by getting more foreign input and this aim was already achiedved by all the JV that were formed by companies like, Boeing, EADS, Thales, Safran group, LM, Saab...
The wining vendor / country will invest even more in India by offsets, ToT, more JV, or co-development, -production and that's why the US fighters that offered not only less capable fighters, but also less useful ToT were not good choices for us. To get on of them might have given us more political advantages and our industry might produce more parts for the americans, but they still don't provide critical ToT that would help us, not allow important JVs, or co-developments like we saw at LCA development.
So choosing an European fighter has especially an strategic importance for our industry that and the comercial/offset offers will play an important role now!

The French package with a clearly more capable and suitable fighter for our forces is great, but if the EF partners would offer an industrial package that would be worth it, to pay more and take the risks of delays, or less capability for some years, the EF will remain with good chances as well.


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## sathya

i think india is aiming for 2 mangoes in 1 stone...
i dont mind it .. both fighters are good enough


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## brational

IMO Going for EF may not prove to be a good move by IAF and MoD.. Spare-parts issues may arise (RAF is facing problems) as we are facing it with Soviet Machines.. It is not suitable to knock the door of 4 countries to get the spare parts..


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## luckyyy

*Dassault: India Set Difficult Conditions on MMRCA*

India has set demanding requirements for industrial offsets in its fighter contest but Dassault is ready to negotiate on the deals, executive chairman Charles Edelstenne said June 17.

The Indian request for tender including offsets which were very tough, Edelstenne told journalists ahead of the Paris Air Show which opens June 20.

It will be very difficult to answer to this request. We want to be chosen; we will negotiate on this subject, he said.

Dassault: India Set


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## SpArK

> Edelstenne said the United Arab Emirates might be the first to decide on its fighter purchase, ahead of Brazil.
> The present efforts in debt reduction by certain countries has led to postponement of new defense programs, but Dassault had taken a decisive step in India and was still being considered in the UAE, Brazil and Switzerland, Edelstenne said.
> The Rafale was also being considered by other undisclosed countries, a company executive said. The French government has made export of the Rafale a &#8220;priority&#8221; because of the perceived importance of the fighter industry in political, technological and economic terms, and also because of the domestic budgetary needs, Edelstenne said.
> France has written into its defense budgets export of the Rafale, and if those foreign sales fail to appear, funding must be found from other defense programs to finance an annual output of 11 aircraft, the minimum deemed for economic sense.



Dassault: India Set


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## sathya

even dhruv had spare parts problem earlier...
its better to be industrial partner and development partner


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## sathya

can EF 200 engine b fixed into jaguar aircraft ?

? guess engine ll b very big for that


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## sathya

or snecma kaveri engine into *rafale , mirage 2000 and lca*...

we can use mmrca deal to upgrade others as well

inncluding AESA radars


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## notting hill

Dubai: There is a sense of optimism in the air at the offices of Dassault Aviation and Dassault Systemes in Paris, as the two bodies of the company blend to take its manufacturing, technological and scientific capabilities into a new era of commercial and defence aviation.
The manufacture of business aircraft takes up the bulk of the book for Dassault, while fighter jets like the Mirage 2000 and the recently developed Rafale &#8216;omnirole' fighter complete the picture. Exports account for over 60 per cent of net sales.
While Dassault has a proven pedigree in aviation and air defence systems, its pet project, the Rafale fighter jet, is currently the buzzword in countries hoping to upgrade their air fleets and also in live &#8216;operation theatres' such as Libya and Afghanistan, where it is being used in combat situations by the French Air Force.
Cautiously optimistic
Now, Dassault is cautiously optimistic of completing an export win with the possible sale of the fighter to the UAE, India and even Brazil. Currently the French air force is the Rafale's sole client and the whiff of a contract has never been so close.
"I would not say that the Rafale has suddenly come into the news," said Eric Trappier, executive vice-president, International, Dassault Aviation.
"We have established ourselves as a result of long, hard work in Europe, the UAE and India. The UAE and India have been longstanding clients of Dassault &#8212; with the purchase of Mirage 2000s &#8212; and this means that they have been satisfied with what we have had to offer before," he said.
Different approaches
"Different approaches are reserved for prospective clients. The Indian government ensured that the Indian Air Force (IAF) had invited six tenders from manufacturers," Trappier said.
"This was shortlisted down to two after Indian pilots worked technically and operationally on our planes," he said.
"This was phase one of the proposal: complete evaluation of the six manufacturers in their conditions with pilots exercising and even firing weapons and resorting to different types of flights in the desert and altitude. In the end they gave us their feedback and the two short listed manufacturers are the Rafale and the Eurofighter Typhoon."
Peculiarity
The peculiarity of this deal is that it is the first time that the Eurofighter and the Rafale have faced off against each other in a final countdown, even though they have competed in tenders. A triumph for either jet could well be a win-win for the European Aeronautic Defence and Space Company (EADS) which owns a 46 per cent share holding in the Eurofighter consortium, as well as 46.3 per cent in Dassault.
An agreement for 126 aircraft with New Delhi could be potentially worth $10 billion-$12 billion (Dh36.7 billion-Dh44 billion).
"With the UAE, however, our approach is vastly different," Trappier said.
"We have a direct approach. This is based on the close relationship between the two countries. We made a few flights with the Rafale for evaluation. The UAE government is used to working with the French, which is why we have proposed the sale of roughly 60 Rafale jets."
Book value
The book value of this contract is believed to be in excess of $8 billion. It is now understood that negotiations have gone a step forward after France received technical and operational specifications from the UAE's armed forces along the sidelines of the ongoing Le Bourget Air Show in Paris. A date for signing a deal is to be set following financial negotiations.
Sources at Dassault are hoping that this will be closed in the UAE at the Dubai Air Show.
A further $7 billion deal with Brazil could complete the big picture for Dassault but for a few irritants in the negotiations. Former President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva came close to signing on the dotted line, after competitors like the Boeing F-18, Grippen Saab and the Typhoon had bowed out, but held back, leaving the decision to current President Dilma Roussef who took office last January 1.
"Each country has its own set of requirements and they focus on their individual capabilities," Trappier said, explaining the method behind individual negotiations.
Expounding on the logic behind making a multi-dimensional fighter like the Rafale, Trappier said: "The idea behind its creation is dominated by cost and financial restrictions. The general headquarters in France proposed building one single aircraft with all types of mission capabilities and one which could serve the French navy as well as the airforce."
Believing that this type of fighter aircraft could go on to become the norm for the future Trappier explained: "The military role and the omnirole capability are flexible because it is capable of adapting the strengths of the aircraft to the mission at hand. Missions can be more and more &#8216;wide', as in Afghanistan and Libya, or complete war &#8212; so it is easy when one has an aircraft capable of many purposes."
Lost contracts
Despite the Rafale's inherent strengths there were contracts that were lost, as in South Korea, Singapore and Morocco which opted for the Boeing F-15 and Lockheed Martin's F-16.
"If we are referring to South Korea and Singapore, we must remind ourselves that this is where the Americans are strong in terms of their political approach. American fighters had been sold before and so these countries went in for a process of continuity," he said. "Therefore, we don't consider it to be a loss as the process of negotiation was a foregone conclusion. Also, we must not forget that the Rafale was operational in the French Air Force only in 2006 so it is quite new."
Trappier believes the sky is the limit for the evolution of the Rafale.
No restrictions
"There are no restrictions. Some countries have even upgraded the F-5 aircraft which is an old plane. The Rafale can continue to be adapted for the next 30 years and will remain in the French forces for the next 40 years," he said.
"The systems in the plane were built up in order to receive these types of adaptations. There is no limit except a physical limit: like a limit on sensors on board. But the main sensors are there like the radar, the electronics, the countermeasures, the weapons," he added.
"In an aircraft which has an empty weight of 10 tonnes we have built a very well-conceptualised plane which may address everything, including the ration between fuel and capability to carry weapons and other such matters."
Looking at the future Trappier was confident in his view that more and more governments would be looking to trim their defence budgets.
On track
In this respect France is already on track.
"Prospects are open, but we developed the Rafale because we were pushed by our airforce and navy to do it. Whether the United States and other countries will do it is anybody's guess &#8212; they prefer dedicated fighters and their budgets are still huge. Maybe they will change."
With regard to the impending export of the Rafale, Trappier said: "There needs to be a level playing field where considerations are limited to the efficacy of the product. Serious testing must be the key and not just influence. The merchandise must be good after strenuous evaluation, but ultimately the selling of a fighter plane will always be the result of a political decision."

gulfnews : Rafale spearheads Dassault's growth


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## sathya

Lockheed Martin Corp. (LMT) may offer its latest F-35 stealth fighter jet to India in a bid to rejoin the Asian country&#8217;s $11 billion combat-jet competition after the company&#8217;s older F-16 model was eliminated.Lockheed&#8217;s chances of offering the F-35 for the 126-plane order were boosted last week when the U.S. Senate Armed Services Committee asked the Defense Department to study the &#8220;desirability and feasibility&#8221; of a joint strike fighter sale to India, said Patrick Dewar, senior vice president for corporate strategy and business development, in an interview at the Paris Air Show.

The Senate committee report accompanying the Pentagon&#8217;s 2012 budget &#8220;opens the window to fifth-generation fighter technology release to India, however the Indian services want to deal with it,&#8221; Dewar said.

The Senate committee request for a Pentagon study on selling F-35s to India was part of a broader amendment on U.S.- India military ties offered by Senators John Cornyn, Republican of Texas, where the fighter is produced, and Joseph Lieberman, independent of Connecticut, home to United Technologies Corp. (UTX), which makes the plane&#8217;s engines.

Cornyn&#8217;s spokeswoman, Jessica Sandlin, said the amendment was &#8220;overwhelmingly adopted&#8221; by the Senate defense panel. Cornyn is the co-founder and co-chairman of the Senate India Caucus. The provision is a so-called &#8220;Item of Special Interest&#8221; that takes effect immediately after the bill report is issued. It doesn&#8217;t need House approval and &#8220;takes effect regardless of what happens to the bill itself,&#8221; she said.

MiG-Replacement

Lockheed&#8217;s F-16, based on a 30-year-old design, was eliminated in April from the six-way Indian contest to replace its aging fleet of 1970s-era MiG-21s, along with Boeing Co. (BA)&#8217;s F/A-18 Super Hornet. On the shortlist are Dassault Aviation SA (AM)&#8217;s Rafale and the Eurofighter made by BAE Systems Plc, Finmeccanica SpA (FNC) and European Aeronautic, Defense & Space Co.

The competition is one of the largest in recent years and also attracted bids from Russia&#8217;s OAO United Aircraft Corp. and Sweden&#8217;s Saab AB (SAABB), which offered the Gripen. President Barack Obama had lobbied on behalf of Bethesda, Maryland-based Lockheed and Chicago-based Boeing.

&#8220;I certainly believe it&#8217;s possible,&#8221; Dewar said when asked if the potential F-35 offer could lead to the Indian Air Force reopening the contest. India &#8220;might think differently about the competition&#8221; should the stealth jet become available.

&#8216;Succumbing&#8217; to U.S. Pressure

Admitting the joint strike fighter to the bidding at this stage would be &#8220;contrary&#8221; to India&#8217;s weapons-acquisition procedure, said Mrinal Suman, an arms-procurement adviser at the Confederation of Indian Industry in New Delhi. &#8220;It&#8217;s too late in the day,&#8221; he said. &#8220;It would be seen by many as succumbing to U.S. pressure.&#8221;

Indian defense ministry spokesman Sitanshu Kar couldn&#8217;t be reached for comment.

The Senate defense panel&#8217;s request to study the F-35 sale to India was part of a broader provision that would require the Obama administration to prepare a &#8220;detailed assessment of the current state of U.S.-India security cooperation.&#8221; The bill seeks a five-year plan for more joint military exercises, defense trade and support for India&#8217;s military modernization, homeland security and coastal defense, and maintenance of secure sea lanes of communication.

T-38 Partnership

The lawmakers also asked the Pentagon to study the possibility of a U.S.-India partnership for development of a replacement for the U.S. Air Force&#8217;s T-38 trainer jet. The planes, built by Northrop Grumman Corp. (NOC)&#8217;s predecessor, have been in use since the 1960s.

India has bought several U.S.-made weapon systems, including C-130J transports made by Lockheed, and on June 15 signed an order for 10 C-17 transport planes made by Boeing valued at about $4 billion.

The F-35 jet is still in development. At an estimated $382 billion, it&#8217;s the Pentagon&#8217;s most expensive weapons program. The U.S. Government Accountability Office has said the planes cost about $133 million each in today&#8217;s dollars. The Pentagon plans to buy more than 2,400.

Buying F-35s at $133 million each would boost India&#8217;s cost in acquiring 126 fighters by about 50 percent, from a currently estimated $11 billion to almost $17 billion.

Future-Generation Aircraft

In April, when India shortlisted the European jet makers, V.K. Kapoor, a retired lieutenant general in India&#8217;s military, said the choice was driven by technical merits.

&#8220;It was a by-the-book technical assessment that the American F-16 and F/A-18, despite their upgrades, are not future-generation aircraft,&#8221; Kapoor said in April. &#8220;They can remain current for another five or 10 years, but this deal is going to determine the operational capacity of our air force for the next 30 years.&#8221;


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## Paan Singh

seems like game changer..waiting for the govt comments....


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## sathya

had this news came a few weeks earlier... european offer would have benn even sweeter
neverthless still they can make it...
i dont see any chance for f 35 without signing cismoa and others
TOT, inspection.... besides bending the rules for mmrca contract..

even new powerful engine offer by one of the vendor was rejected

unless a magic which is damn powerfull is cast this may not happen

IN will love to hear this news


seems like US have information that india is going for 125 million $....EF
so they think their 133 million $ f 35 will make india rethink - just my speculation


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## hembo

MRCA tender: US firm Raytheon locks onto India 
Published: Monday, Jun 20, 2011, 21:29 IST 
Place: LE BOURGET, France | Agency: PTI 

Vying for a pie in India's planned procurement of 126 MMRCA fighters, US defence major Raytheon today said it was eager to supply weapons systems for being integrated onto the jets to be selected from among two shortlisted European companies.

Harry Schulte, Raytheon vice-president of Air Warfare Systems said the company has a suite of air-to-air and air-to-surface weapons systems that could be integrated on Rafale or Eurofighter, the two shortlisted plane makers by India, subject to US government approval.

"Raytheon is prepared to meet India's national security needs and support the protection of India's sovereign interests with our air-to-air and air-to-surface weapons," he said at the Paris Air Show here.

India has shortlisted two European contenders, French Dassault Rafale and European Eurofighter for procuring 126 Medium-Multirole Combat Aircraft (M-MRCA) deal for the Indian Air Force (IAF) in April.

He said Raytheon's Paveway systems with proven track record could be integrated into the 126 MMRCA. Raytheon's Paveway is a kit that transforms "dumb" bombs into precision-guided munitions; Paveway is currently in the inventory of the Indian Air Force and 41 other countries.

The Paveway family of weapons are platform independent and integrated on more than 27 aircraft.

Noting that India was a priority country for Raytheon, he also announced the firm's desire to integrate the combat-proven Paveway systems on India's Light Combat Aircraft (LCA).

"Raytheon has been a trusted partner to India for more than three decades, and we hope to deepen this relationship by providing the Indian Air Force the tools it needs to defend India's sovereign interests," said Harry Schulte, Raytheon vice-president of Air Warfare Systems.

"India's air warriors deserve the world's most accurate direct-attack precision guided munition, which is why Raytheon's Paveway is a perfect fit for the LCA.

Integrated on the Rafale and Eurofighter, Paveway has been extensively used in several ongoing contingency operations. Raytheon's battle-tested Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missile is integrated on the Eurofighter.

Raytheon officials also indicated that subject to the approval of the US and Indian governments, Raytheon is looking for partnership opportunities to produce critical components of Paveway with Indian industry.

"Raytheon has the utmost respect for the capabilities of India's defense industry," said Peter Wray, vice president of business development for Raytheon Missile Systems in India.

"If Raytheon were to receive the proper authorisations and find the right partner, we'd be eager to pursue co-production opportunities".


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## sancho

*It's out of the competition, but they still have some hope:*



> *PARIS: Saab's Gripen NG demonstrator visits Le Bourget*
> 
> ...Following the completion of avionics testing later this year, the NG will be equipped with Selex Galileo's ES-05 Raven active electronically scanned array radar.
> 
> "The next aircraft will be coming in October 2013, and is being built from scratch as an NG," said Nilsson. This will bring a new look for the Gripen, with a longer fuselage, increased wingspan and new engine inlets.
> 
> Saab is also holding out hopes of getting the NG back into an Indian contest for 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft. However, its chances hinge on the nation balking at the cost of acquiring either of its favoured candidates: the Dassault Rafale and Eurofighter Typhoon.



PARIS: Saab's Gripen NG demonstrator visits Le Bourget


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## kingdurgaking

*An Advanced Radar from Thales*

Paris 2011: Thales Brings Consistency to Rafale Radar: AINonline

Sincerely hopping we get 100% ToT on radar from Dassault.. engine is not provided is fine..


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## sancho

kingdurgaking said:


> *An Advanced Radar from Thales*
> 
> Paris 2011: Thales Brings Consistency to Rafale Radar: AINonline
> 
> Sincerely hopping we get 100% ToT on radar from Dassault.. engine is not provided is fine..


 
Full ToT + source codes is on offer and I would like to see a co-development on LCAs AESA based on the RBE 2 AESA as well. Could get an article, or some more infos about Kaveri - Snecma engine integration into Rafale in the next days, would be an very interesting option and imo even more important than the radar. Because we could get an AESA co-development with other Europeans, Russians, or the Israelis, but the only possibility to get an engine co-development and using the engine in MMRCA, is offered by Rafale!


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## angeldemon_007

^^^
Hey Sancho is there any indication that India will be building separate aesa for different fighters ?/ If not then i think we should opt for Elta because e/l 2052 is only one of the aesa which can fit on every fighter as we can change the number of modules based on the diameter of the nose. While in other aesa we cannot change as per our requirement. In short e/l 2052 can fit on lca as well as mmrca as well as su30mki (or fgfa or amca) while other aesa's doesnot have this feature.


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## jha

> e/l 2052 can fit on lca as well as mmrca as well as su30mki (or fgfa or amca) while other aesa's doesnot have this feature



2052 is denied to us under american pressure and there are indications that American companies want to handle AESA radars for LCA themselves ..


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## angeldemon_007

^^^
Actually it wasn't clear. They never mentioned our name. I don't know how news agencies got to this conclusion. But even if US has barred Israel from selling this, we can go for a JV on next gen aesa based on e/l 2052, after-all we will be using these aesa on 5th gen fighter jet and radar will be very important for that. Also, Israel loves to exploit loopholes and become pain in the a** for US.


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## KEETARP

sancho said:


> @ Prateek
> 
> P.S. If you take a closer look at this pic, especially at the EFs in the background you will see, that they all are loaded for strikes, but don't carry BVR missiles:
> 
> http://www.eurofighter.com/typo3temp/pics/a01bf2f02b.jpg
> 
> 
> So we are not talking about a single pic, or a single fighter, but a real EF strike config in it's first real combat missions. There must be a reason for it and I'm curious what this might be?


 
Oh common - Stop your dream speculation . 

Here is official press release from Horse's mouth 







I have highlighted in red box 

Source - 
Eurofighter:  News Detail

Pic is from official eurofighter's magazine .


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## sancho

angeldemon_007 said:


> ^^^
> Hey Sancho is there any indication that India will be building separate aesa for different fighters ?/ If not then i think we should opt for Elta because e/l 2052 is only one of the aesa which can fit on every fighter as we can change the number of modules based on the diameter of the nose. While in other aesa we cannot change as per our requirement. In short e/l 2052 can fit on lca as well as mmrca as well as su30mki (or fgfa or amca) while other aesa's doesnot have this feature.


 
As Jha correctly said, the Elta 2052 is only possible with US approval and even joint developments based on this radar is not possible. Saab wanted the same for Gripen NG in the MMRCA, but the US jumped in and put pressure on the Israelis to reject the offer. The US knew quiet well that a Gripen NG with Elta radar, Litening LDP, Python V, Spice PGMs, would be hard to deny for Indian forces and would have been a good competitior, even the fighter needs years for development.
A single radar for different fighters is possible of course, that's why a radar co-development based on the winning MMRCA AESA would be a good idea as well, but if they would be as good as the AESA that is under development for Pak Fa is difficult to say, because Russians and Europeans are only in development stage now. 




PRATEEK said:


> Oh common - Stop your dream speculation .
> 
> Here is official press release from Horse's mouth



And all they say is that they used AMRAAM, not how many. The pic on the right is even the same that I posted as well and it has no AMRAAM fitted! The fact is, that most of the EFs in strike role carry only a single BVR, others even none and I already provided clear proves for it.


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## jha

^^^ Indian own MMR shaping well...It will be interesting to see the AESA variant..


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## sancho

jha said:


> ^^^ Indian own MMR shaping well...It will be interesting to see the AESA variant..


 
Any reliable infos on that? To be honest, I didn't find a single reliable source now, we don't even know if the Tejas prototypes now using Israeli MMR, or the Indian MMR now for sure. That and that IAF searches for an foreing partner for AESA radar developments makes clear, that the indigenous developments in that area are by far not as capable as the froeign right?
We could also look at DRDO AWACS, where the specs hints to an comparable radar performance like the older Erieye system, whic for the first attemped is great of course, but I still would go for an more capable Russian AESA in FGFA, than an less capable indigenous one on the top end fighters.


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## marcos98

*Captor-E AESA radar on target to be operational in 2015*


> Europes Typhoon fighter will be available with an operational active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar from 2015, the Eurofighter consortium has announced.



PARIS: Eurofighter to get operational AESA radar-22/06/2011-Paris-Flightglobal.com

Reactions: Like Like:
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## KEETARP

sancho said:


> And all they say is that they used AMRAAM, not how many.



So you came to conclusion that only 1 can be carried . 

That to from different angle pics of a single jet , on a single day . 



> The pic on the right is even the same that I posted as well and it has no AMRAAM fitted! The fact is, that most of the EFs in strike role carry only a single BVR, others even none and I already provided clear proves for it.



OK , so by that pic one should also conclude that Eurofighter can't carry a single AMRAAM in A2G config. 

And all other pictures taken worldwide by photographers in last 8 years, like the one below are 






probably fake / photo shopped ???

Wait or you want to say this capability of carrying load declined in 2011 from 2006 . 

And Indian Air force evaluation team is biggest fool on earth , to have seen demonstration by Eurofighter in A2G and A2A mission and found it fully compliant to indian req .
If we believe your theory of only 1 BVR - Then Typhoon = Mig21 . And still it cleared the evaluation trials of A2G mission 

Oh , yes then we have another theory of your's - Eurofigter was selected to put pressure of Dassault . 
Great - same company on which we are putting pressure for last 6 years for mirage upgrade and still struggling and begging .


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## sancho

PRATEEK said:


> So you came to conclusion that only 1 can be carried .
> That to from different angle pics of a single jet , on a single day .



That's your claim not mine, I just said that that is a strange load for and multi role fighter and that there must be a reason for it. And again there were several EFs on several occasions. One pic from the official Eurofighter website alone showed 4 EFs without the normal BVR load, so get over it and take it as it is.
All the old pics during training, or weapon trials are no point here, because this is a real war situation and the so called "most advanced fighter of the world" is not limiting it's already limited capabilities even more, without a reason.


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## KEETARP

Really , I never claimed that only one can be carried . 
I still say - 4BVRAAM+2SRAAM+2Drop tanks+1 LGB pod + 4 Paveway4 PGM .



> I just said that that is a strange load for and multi role fighter and that there must be a reason for it.



Now you come to point , yes its strange . Even i have no clue about that . 
Only RAF would know why .

Better ask this question at Keypub forum - EFLitening , Quadbike would have some info on this . You are registered as Sancho78 if i am not mistaken.



> And again there were several EFs on several occasions. One pic from the official Eurofighter website alone showed 4 EFs without the normal BVR load



Which one is this pic with 4 eurofighters ?????




> All the old pics during training, or weapon trials are no point here, because this is a real war situation and the so called "most advanced fighter of the world" is not limiting it's already limited capabilities even more, without a reason.



Of course its a point there- no doubt . If Eurofighter is so limited in A2G capability - How the Hell did IAF cleared it . 
If they can not deliver - firstly they would have been rejected outright . 



> real war situation



I am quoting this from KeyPub forum shamelessly 

"As one Typhoon pilot more or less put it; theres not much difference operating on CAPs in Libya than it is in the UK. Only difference is is that they're more likely to actually shoot something down over Libya. Other than that, normal days work."
credit EF-LIGHTNING


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## kingdurgaking

PRATEEK said:


> So you came to conclusion that only 1 can be carried .
> 
> That to from different angle pics of a single jet , on a single day .
> 
> OK , so by that pic one should also conclude that Eurofighter can't carry a single AMRAAM in A2G config.
> 
> And all other pictures taken worldwide by photographers in last 8 years, like the one below are
> 
> probably fake / photo shopped ???
> 
> Wait or you want to say this capability of carrying load declined in 2011 from 2006 .
> 
> And Indian Air force evaluation team is biggest fool on earth , to have seen demonstration by Eurofighter in A2G and A2A mission and found it fully compliant to indian req .
> If we believe your theory of only 1 BVR - Then Typhoon = Mig21 . And still it cleared the evaluation trials of A2G mission
> 
> Oh , yes then we have another theory of your's - Eurofigter was selected to put pressure of Dassault .
> Great - same company on which we are putting pressure for last 6 years for mirage upgrade and still struggling and begging .


 
Prateek,

No doubt EFT is one of the greatest fighter.... but you have to understand that.. EFT has demonstrated only limited A2G promising in Tranche 3A it will be fully compatible.... Even IAF has choosen these two though they didnt have any functional AESA during the trails only under written/Signed document that .. these will be delivered otherwise IAF will file suit claiming damages from these firms .. secondly there was a progress made in the areas that made IAF to accept these two aircrafts... currently Rafale is fully compatible in all specs as compared to EFT.. though it will not outclass EFT (incase they developed what is promised trance 3) but Rafale definitely lives upto or exceeds IAF's expectation.. what is important is the money and industrial offset which both of us will provide... 

As far as Sancho's argument that we will end up paying money for EFT consortium is totally wrong also.. but there is a risk factor .. where as Rafale has made progress in all the areas... which ever is cheaper and providing us the best Industrial offset .. will be the best fighter for us


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## KEETARP

King....^^^^^ , Few corrections . Eurofighter for Indian evaluation flew with AESA radar 

"Eurofighter too test-flew a prototype AESA radar for the IAF evaluation team, convincing them that it would be ready by 2014-15."

Broadsword: Rejected MMRCA vendors fight to return


The problem is - Everyone is comparing Eurofighter with Rafale based on present specs and Libyan conflict . 

But you have to accept Eurofighter flew for first time good 8-10 years later than Rafale . You got to give time for Eurofighter to close this gap of 10 years by Rafale , which it probably will in next 4-5 years.
Eurofighter is still in evolution stage of its cycle .

Even the Tornado took a few years to get where they are today, same said for the Rafale, F-16, F-18, F-15, Mirage, Jaguar, Harrier etc, you name them, they've all taken time to develope through out the years, so we can say they're late developers and immature too . 


Rafale has certainly proved its worth and I take my hat off to it. It deserves its praise but at the end of the day, it was designed to do this type of work . But just because Eurofighter only rushed in last minute effort to show A2G capability in LIBYA - is in no way indicator of how good Aerodyanmic design it will turn out when fully developed .


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## sancho

PRATEEK said:


> Now you come to point , yes its strange . Even i have no clue about that .
> Only RAF would know why .
> 
> Better ask this question at Keypub forum - EFLitening , Quadbike would have some info on this . You are registered as Sancho78 if i am not mistaken.



That's what I said from the start, or better what I asked, because you first replied exactly to that question! I am, but use that forum and BR only when I search for specific infos.




PRATEEK said:


> Which one is this pic with 4 eurofighters ?????



Check the pics that I showed you, there is one with an EF taking of and 2 or 3 in the background, all with strike config and all without the normal BVR missile load. You can even check the serials and can see that they are different fighters on most of the pics. It's defenitely a common loadout of the EF in Libya during strikes!




PRATEEK said:


> Of course its a point there- no doubt . If Eurofighter is so limited in A2G capability - How the Hell did IAF cleared it .
> If they can not deliver - firstly they would have been rejected outright .



Because the trials were not all that was taken into account, the proposal of EF includes more weapons and capabilities, weapons like RBS 15, Storm Shadow, Brimstone..., we can have them integreated if we want, we just have to pay for it!
All they was able to really prove in the weapon trials in Europe was dropping the Paveway 2 that they use in Libya and the Paveway IV that they integrate now, nothing else!
Even RAF pilots in the recent articles confirmed, that the EF is accompanied by Tornados, because the latter can carry more variety of weapons, compared to the limited EF. Or that it is useful to have an WSO that can takeover the guidance of the LGB, which the EF don't have as well.
The Rafale on the other hand has it all and has it all now, without additional costs, or time for developments, that's an undeniable fact!




PRATEEK said:


> I am quoting this from KeyPub forum shamelessly
> 
> "As one Typhoon pilot more or less put it; theres not much difference operating on CAPs in Libya than it is in the UK. Only difference is is that they're more likely to actually shoot something down over Libya. Other than that, normal days work."
> credit EF-LIGHTNING



Which is not even surprising, because the EF was deployed in the Libyan conflict only as a 2nd day fighter, when the air defence and airbases where taken out by cruise missiles, Rafale, Tornado, F18 Growler and F15 strikes.
These are the prime frontline fighters, or most capable fighters, that will be deployed in any war at first, while the less capable fighters will assist them later in secondary missions and that's what the EF did, assisting the Tornado and providing cover!


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## angeldemon_007

Eurofighter at The Paris Air Show: The Indian Dimension | SLDInfo


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## RPK

*India averse to inking military pacts with U.S*

The Hindu : News / National : India averse to inking military pacts with U.S.


Washington upset after Boeing and Lockheed Martin knocked out of race for combat aircraft

As the dust over rejection of two U.S. companies from the Rs. 11,000-crore Indian Air Force tender for fighter aircraft settles, official sources said the United States would also have to reconcile with India's unwillingness to sign three military pacts.

The U.S. was extremely upset after Boeing and Lockheed Martin were knocked out of the race for the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA).

The issue figured in the May 9 conversation between Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and U.S. President Barack Obama after the U.S. Embassy contended that the evaluation was not transparent.

The final report listed some qualitative requirements not met by the U.S. companies. But Washington claimed that these deficiencies were not mentioned in the initial report.

However, India has been unwavering in backing the evaluation of some 600 qualitative requirements of the six fighters in contention.

While the U.S. was denied a strategic foothold in the IAF's offensive capabilities segment, it could face continued stonewalling with respect to three military pacts &#8212; Logistics Sharing Agreement (LSA), Communication Interoperability and Security Memorandum of Agreement (CISMOA) and the Basic Exchange and Cooperation Agreement for Geo-spatial Cooperation (BECA).

The Indian attitude a month ahead of the strategic dialogue between External Affairs Minister S.M. Krishna and Secretary of State Hillary Clinton is to keep the issue away from the main agenda.
No hidden objective

The U.S. argues that there is no hidden aim behind the LSA. It is an inter-bank type of clearing arrangement &#8212; there will be periodical settlement of accounts for the use of each other's facilities.

For instance, Indian naval ships have had 45 refuellings from the U.S. ships in the Gulf of Aden. Under the LSA, payments need not be made each time. The expenses could be adjusted against the money owed to India if U.S. ships came calling here.

But the Indian leadership feels that the LSA will give the impression of a strategic agreement with the Pentagon in military operations.

After the Defence-Secretary level Defence Policy Group (DPG) meeting in Washington earlier this year, both sides agreed to work towards a more &#8220;mature arrangement.'' But there was no &#8220;question of a blanket agreement,'' said the official sources.

India confronts a technical issue in signing the CISMOA, though officials feel it sounds heavier than it is. They also feel that interoperability, as argued by the U.S., need not be dependent on signing the CISMOA.

The communication will be encrypted and no other algorithm can be used on the system. During joint exercises, U.S. personnel sit on Indian ships with their own equipment.

But on aircraft there is no space for two or three different kinds of equipment.

The Navy and the Air Force have said they had no problems either way but politically this remains a sensitive issue though officials say it is not as heavy as it sounds.

India also has reservations on the third military agreement sought by the U.S. &#8212; BECA. The U.S. says the pact will enable C-130 and C-17 planes to fly close to the ground.

This entails installation of ground sensors, which none in the security establishment, except the Defence Research & Development Organisation is keen on.


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## the rafter



Reactions: Like Like:
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## hembo

Eurofighter, Dassault Submit Revised Offset Bids, Indian MMRCA Contest Enters Final Round
Our Bureau
Thu, Jun 23, 2011 12:09 CET


Eurofighter and Dassault, the two shortlisted bidders in India's MMRCA fighter tender submitted revised offset bids on June 17 signaling the start of the final round of evaluation at the end of which one of the bidders will walk away with the $10 billion tender to equip the Indian Air Force (IAF) with 126 (plus 66 options)Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA).


A source from one of the bidders told Defenseworld.net at the Paris Air Show 2011 that the updated offset bids included individual MoUs with third part equipment providers which supply critical equipment such as engine, avionics and other critical systems. Earlier offset propsal submitted had only offset commitments on the part of the bidders who are essentially platform integrators.

The Indian MoD has not given any timeframe for their next engagement with Dassault and Eurofighter, the sources said adding that they expect to hear from the customer within the next 2-3 months. After the studying the offset proposals, the MoD will call the two bidders for final discussions on price/contract performance and select one among them.

"The revised offset bids include 50% direct engagements with Indian companies such as Hindustan Aeronautics Limited(HAL), Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL), and several other Indian private groups such as the Tatas, Mahindras, L & T and others", said the source.

The MoD had asked the two bidders to extend their commercial bids (price quote) till the end of the year. Generally, commercial bids are valid for two years from the date of the RFP.


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## the rafter

Typhoon Completes 1st Phase Of Meteor Carriage Tests: Livefist: PHOTOS: Typhoon Completes 1st Phase Of Meteor Carriage Tests

---------- Post added at 11:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:16 PM ----------

Livefist: Eurofighter Unveils Future Roadmap For Typhoon


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## DacterSaab

It would be very funny too see how everyone's views are going to change on this forum. If EFT wins the MMRCA.

I like Rafale more but am past the point of caring which one they buy just get them quickly.


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## jha

Old Tornado jets no crutch for Typhoon in Libya - pilot | Reuters


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## sancho

DacterSaab said:


> It would be very funny too see how everyone's views are going to change on this forum. If EFT wins the MMRCA.
> 
> I like Rafale more but am past the point of caring which one they buy just get them quickly.


 
As I said earlier, the important question for EF is, does it offer so much on the industrial side, to look over the operational shortfalls and the huge cost? If yes, it will be a good deal for India as well and way better than the F18SH deal, we just have to invest more time and especially money to bring the EF to the level where the Rafale already is.


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## DacterSaab

sancho said:


> As I said earlier, the important question for EF is, does it offer so much on the industrial side, to look over the operational shortfalls and the huge cost? If yes, it will be a good deal for India as well and way better than the F18SH deal, we just have to invest more time and especially money to bring the EF to the level where the Rafale already is.


 
exactly if EFT is more capable platform once it matures then buy it but for heavens sake get this deal over with before Russians say they wanna re-enter with Mig-LMFS or US offers us the F-22 Raptor.


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## aanshu001

SOURCE: IDRW NEWS NETWORK

Dassault aviation CEO in its recent press conference at the Paris Air show hinted that, Dassault aviation is counting big time on Indias MMRCA contract where the winner will provide Indian air force 126 fighter jets in next few years.

Indias MMRCA deal which is considered has Mother of all Deal, Due to sheer size of the aircrafts which will be purchased from a single vendor and the potential growth of orders which normally comes with Indian contracts is also large. And then Indian Navy too interested in a Carrier borne aircrafts, just sweetens the deal.

Dassault Rafale which has struggled until now to find an export customer is counting big on Indian order, since other potential export customers are watching Indian MMRCA contract very carefully, Particularly Brazil which Favoured Rafale in their quest to purchase 36 fighters in their F-X2 program. But seems to be holding back just long enough to see who will be winner in Indian MMRCA deal.

India has tested all six aircrafts for more than 650 parameters and defence experts believe that the Indian test carried out by its experience test pilots, was extensive enough to be a used has a hand book for other air forces around the world, which are looking at currently purchasing aircrafts based on Technical performance.

CEO also informed press that Rafale has part of NATO air force over Libya, were able to operate more than two dozen of its fighter, without having any operational difficulty, taking a pot shot where serviceability of Rival Eurofighter Typhoon in Libyan operations has been in question, due to shortage of spares.

Ceo also confirmed that the Production variant of RBE-2 AESA radar for the Rafale, which has already been successfully integrated and tested, will be ready for export market from 2013 onwards; Dassault is also considering upgrading the engines of Rafales to add higher thrust, currently Dassault Rafale is powered by 2 × Snecma M88-2 turbofans generating 75.62 kN of thrust with its after burner, but French are already working on a higher thrust engine, which is known has Snecma M88-3 which will have 91kN of thrust on its after burner , this has been developed in connection with the sale of Rafale to the United Arab Emirates considering the fact that they will operate in a hot weather countries and will be for interception operations.

Rafale might have struggled to bring export orders even after 11 years been inducted in to French air force, but the majority of the upgrades and operational issues seems to be taken care of by this long time of operational use in the French armed forces, where else in Partner countries of Euro fighter Typhoon have struggled to maintain a steady supply of spares and serviceability of Typhoon in their respected air force.

Indian air force which is retiring its current fleet of Mig-21 and Mig-27 from its service will definitely want to have a fighter aircraft with steady supply chain and not repeat whole Bae Hawk experience again, where due to loop holes in contract British firms not only supplied old worn out spares, but also effected serviceability and the production of the aircraft in the Hal Facility in India.

Rafale upgrades are already in the pipeline, which means further Reduction in RCS, Engine upgrades, integration of a Limited production AESA radar, and improvements in Avionics package has already been taken care by Dassault keeping in mind its Primary customer , thats French Air force , while EADS is counting on Indian funds for the future upgrades on the Eurofighter Typhoon

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## bhagat

*$11 bn fighter jet contract transparent and fair: IAF Chief to NDTV
*

The process followed by the Indian Air Force to shortlist fighter jets for its massive 11 billion dollars contract could not have been more transparent and fair, IAF Chief PV Naik has asserted. This is the first public comment by him after US and Russia raised doubts over the process after their aircraft were eliminated from the race.
$11 bn fighter jet contract transparent and fair: IAF Chief to NDTV


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## sathya

Eurofighter and Euroradar confirm that the Typhoon will get its AESA radar by 2015






The Typhoon, pictured here with Meteor air-to-air missiles, will receive the new CAPTOR-E AESA radar by 2015, says a company release from the Paris air show (pasted below)



Eurofighter and Euroradar confirm 2015 entry into service target date for the Typhoon new generation E-Scan radar

After one year of industry funding, the Eurofighter and Euroradar consortia have received renewed strong support from the Partner Nations and have agreed to continue the full scale development programme of the next generation E-Scan radar, confirming the 2015 entry into service date.

Supported by the Eurofighter partner nations: the United Kingdom, Italy, Germany and Spain, Eurofighter GmbH and Euroradar began full scale development of the new CAPTOR-E radar in July 2010.

The new radar will have AESA capability that far exceeds any other radar available today and in the foreseeable future and will be developed to satisfy the requirements of the Partner Nations and customers across the globe.

The new radar will retain the key features of the existing market leading Captor-M radar in order to exploit the maturity of the current system, using latest generation technology to provide further advanced performance. The Typhoon&#8217;s AESA radar will offer a variety of benefits over M-Scan, including increased detection and tracking ranges, advanced air-to-surface capability and enhanced electronic protection measures.

The new AESA array, larger than the ones available to our competitors thanks to the Typhoon&#8217;s voluminous radome, will be fitted on a repositioner that will provide a wider field of regard when compared to those installed or scheduled for introduction on other fighters.

The new radar will offer customers the freedom to retrofit their existing Typhoons when required. The radar will have significant growth potential and both existing and new customers will be able to participate in tailoring the radar to meet their individual operational requirements.

The new AESA Radar is part of the platform and systems enhancement ongoing with Eurofighter to ensure Typhoon leads the way as the world&#8217;s best new generation multi-role combat aircraft.


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## sathya

US sulking over lost fighter contract
Published June 26, 2011
SOURCE : HINDUSTAN TIMES



The US is struggling to come to terms with the rejection of its bids for a $10.2 billion (Rs 45,900 crore) contract to supply 126 fighter planes to the Indian Air Force, the countrys biggest order symbolising its growing military appetite. US defence contractors betrayed their frustration and questioned Indias arms procurement policy in hushed tones at the Paris air show in Le Bourget.

A top executive, who did not wish to be named, said questions about the criteria adopted to shortlist European fighters (Eurofighter Typhoon and Rafale) had not been answered.

We are awaiting responses to the clarifications sought by the US government, he said.

But the IAF said it went by the book.

It was a fact-based decision. Politico-strategic considerations were not factored in. The Typhoon and Rafale best met our requirements, Air Chief Marshal PV Naik said.

He said the US should not be upset over losing the fighter deal, as Washingtons platter was piled high with military contracts worth billions of dollars.

They have a lot in its kitty. The US has won several contracts including those for C-17 military transport aircraft, C-130J airlifters and P-8I long-range maritime reconnaissance planes, Naik said.

US Ambassador to India Timothy Roemer had announced his resignation in April, a day after Boeings F/A-18 Super Hornet and Lockheed Martins F-16 Super Viper fighters were edged out of the race, along with Russias MiG-35 and Swedens Gripen.

The fighter contract could either be awarded to Eurofighter Typhoon (a consortium of British, German, Spanish and Italian companies) or French firm Dassault Aviations Rafale, depending on who the lowest bidder is.

Naik said the decision should not impact Indo-US strategic ties.

India is buying 10 Boeing C-17s for $ 4.1 billion (Rs 18,450 crore) and 12 P-8Is worth $3.1 billion (Rs 13,950 crore) from the US. Lockheed Martin won a $1 billion (Rs 4,500 crore) order in 2008 to supply six C-130Js to the IAF.


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## angeldemon_007

Mega fighter deal to strengthen India's airspace - World News - IBNLive


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## angeldemon_007

The battle to sell fighter aircraft - The National


----------



## angeldemon_007

*Hey guys have the Europeans offered us Scalp/Storm Shadow or Tauras for MMRCA contract ?*


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## luckyyy

*MMRCA specifications requested by the Indian Air Force are currently not available on existing aeroplanes. Perhaps on the F-22, but that is not for export said Louis Gallois is the CEO of EADS,*

The Hindu : Opinion / Op-Ed : &lsquo;Our will to invest in India is high'


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## sancho

angeldemon_007 said:


> *Hey guys have the Europeans offered us Scalp/Storm Shadow or Tauras for MMRCA contract ?*


 
At least the companies are offereing it with their fighters, but it will require government approval too. 




luckyyy said:


> *MMRCA specifications requested by the Indian Air Force are currently not available on existing aeroplanes. Perhaps on the F-22, but that is not for export said Louis Gallois is the CEO of EADS,*
> 
> The Hindu : Opinion / Op-Ed : &lsquo;Our will to invest in India is high'


 
That was in 2010, I guess it is clearer now, after the shortlist.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## luckyyy

..................


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## angeldemon_007

The Indian Fighter Competition and the Future of Eurofighter | SLDInfo

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## sancho

angeldemon_007 said:


> The Indian Fighter Competition and the Future of Eurofighter | SLDInfo


 
As expected, but now we have an official confirmation for these things as well:



> *SLD:* NETMA provides a forum then within which harmonization of the requirements is sorted out so that the contributions of upgrades generated by any of the member nations can shape an upgrade path?
> 
> *Wells:* That&#8217;s right. We get the customer agency&#8217;s future requirements and then we act on behalf of the partners on the industry side through the various contracts. *The content of those requirements can come from one, two, three or four nations, depending on the funding routes, who&#8217;s in custody of the upgrade and what and when they require it, we will then propose packages of upgrades that will accommodate all of those requirements as far into the future as is required. We don&#8217;t develop single products individually across the four nations, but shape a common approach.* And now we&#8217;ve got five and six nations with Austria and Saudi Arabia. The approach is to try to have a common approach for Eurofighter upgrades regardless of customer. We focus on generating high-tech solutions, help to develop new technologies across the Eurofighter partners and suppliers and develop an important economic impact to the partner nations.
> 
> 
> So much for, we can upgrade the EF for our needs in future, the reality is that anything that India wants in future, has to be negotiated with all partners.
> 
> 
> *SLD:* India would then come in as a new partner, with a new assembly line, and their requirements would shape new funding and new opportunities for upgrading the aircraft, and adding new industrial possibilities?
> 
> *Wells:* Exactly. *If they&#8217;ve got money on the table to say we need this capability* and this number of aircraft in this time frame, then those requirements would be dealt with, together with those of the existing partner nations.
> 
> 
> *SLD:* Could you describe the immediate impact from Indian participation as a Eurofighter nation on the upgrade approach?
> 
> *Wells:* The immediate impact is that we will have a large set of operational requirements that we would need to fulfill in a pretty short time span. *Currently, the only official future upgrade that is currently being funded is Meteor. There are indications that there will be additional new weapons, but funding is a problem.* The list of requirements on the Indian RFP is considerable. And they would need to be worked through to this upgrade program. I think it&#8217;s fair to say that *the proposal that we&#8217;ve made into India in terms of providing a Typhoon with the required capabilities is arguably 80 percent Indian requirements, 20 percent European requirements.* So they would influence considerably the future direction of the Eurofighter program.




So far only Meteor confirmed as an upgrade funded by the partners, anything else is fully depending on our additional money, be it real multi role capabilities, be it additional techs, or even the AESA.
Also interesting is the fact that 80% of this:







is not required by the European partners!


----------



## luckyyy

angeldemon_007 said:


> The Indian Fighter Competition and the Future of Eurofighter | SLDInfo


 
the first line itself says it all :


SLD: In analyzing the Indian decision with regard to which fighter aircraft to downselect, we have written that the* Indians are focusing on selecting an aircraft, which forms the basis for a 30-year franchise.* From this point of view, they are *interested not just in buying a platform, but an engagement in the evolution of that aircraft.*


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## angeldemon_007

I wonder how Eurofighter consortium ( EADS, Alenia Aeronautica and BAE ) will try to woo India. They will have to offer us alot otherwise they don't stand a chance against Team Dassault. Future of Rafale is no doubt better than EF because EF countries will be using F35 while France will rely on Rafale which means they will be upgrading it to the level of close to a 5th gen fighter....


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## luckyyy

angeldemon_007 said:


> I wonder how Eurofighter consortium ( EADS, Alenia Aeronautica and BAE ) will try to woo India. They will have to offer us alot otherwise they don't stand a chance against Team Dassault. Future of Rafale is no doubt better than EF because EF countries will be using F35 while France will rely on Rafale which means *they will be upgrading it to the level of close to a 5th gen fighter*....


 
and then they will try to recover the entire upgrade fund fron india when IAF go to them to upgrade rafale,..

it's far better that india fund the upgrade upfront on EF and get the PR on the tech along with the upgrade......


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## angeldemon_007

^^^
EF is trying to build the present version with Indian help forget about the future. Whatever they claim EF to be will be build by Indian money while Rafale is ready. We will have to pay for upgrade whether its EF or Rafale but we shouldn't be paying for the present one...


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## luckyyy

angeldemon_007 said:


> ^^^
> EF is trying to build the present version with Indian help forget about the future. Whatever they claim EF to be will be build by Indian money while Rafale is ready. We will have to pay for upgrade whether its EF or Rafale but we shouldn't be paying for the present one...


 
present version will be build by indian money been recived for supply of 126 jets....

future upgraded might be funded by india in EF.... but been paid in case of rafale..

funding a upgrade means getting a PR(property right) on technology..

far better then company try to recover the entire upgrade fund fron india when IAF go to them to upgrade rafale,..


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## sancho

luckyyy said:


> and then they will try to recover the entire upgrade fund fron india when IAF go to them to upgrade rafale,..
> 
> it's far better that india fund the upgrade upfront on EF and get the PR on the tech along with the upgrade......


 


luckyyy said:


> present version will be build by indian money been recived for supply of 126 jets....
> 
> future upgraded might be funded by india in EF.... but been paid in case of rafale..
> 
> funding a upgrade means getting a PR(property right) on technology..
> 
> far better then company try to recover the entire upgrade fund fron india when IAF go to them to upgrade rafale,..




Funny, first you favoured the Mig, because it was cheap and now you suddenly favour the most expensive one? 

Maybe we should get a clear picture of what upgrades we are talking here:



> *Eurofighter Unveils Future Roadmap For Typhoon*



Livefist: Eurofighter Unveils Future Roadmap For Typhoon








So far the EF partners have funded and ordered the phase 1 enhancements till T3A and most likely will add the METEOR missile, although no partner country has ordered it so far.
To fulfill the requirements of MMRCA, the consortium companies decided to pre-fund the AESA development, because the partner countries don't have the money for the development, nor ordered T3B fighters, that would need AESA.
*That means all other upgrades of the T3B are not funded and depending IAF requirements would have to be funded by India + parts of the AESA radar development!*


The Rafale on the other side, like shown on the pic has nearly all these upgrades already available and proven, or funded by France for the F3+ version that they ordered will be delivered from 2013 onwards!

Rafale has no glide bomb, but the rocket propelled AASM that offers stand off ranges as well.
One, or even several new weapons on the lower end, for the anti amour warfare are under evaluation now. The 125Kg version of AASM and LGTR bombs are ready and just needs to be ordered, but the French forces also shows interest in guided rocket pods, or Brimstone missiles:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-...f-rafale-mmrca-shortlist-114.html#post1866546

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-...f-rafale-mmrca-shortlist-116.html#post1878218

Both capabilities will enhance the weapon package of the Rafale F3+, besides the already cleared GBU 24, L AASM, AASM 1000 and Meteor.
Range extention with CFTs was developed and tested in the early 2000s and is just waiting for an customer that pays for the final development and integration.
So from that list, only SATCOM upgrades would be leff for India to pay for (if required), while the integration of HMS (Topsight, or Gerfaut) would be necessary for India for sure.

It should be obvious that the Rafale is the better choice, because except of 2 things, all upgrades that the EF could get in future, are already available, or funded by France. That means IAF will get a capable fighter from the start, has no risks of delays, or cost increases during the development and don't have to pay that much more, to get the same features!


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## Nishant

Let us not forget that MMRCA is a stopgap provision to take care of fast depleting aircraft numbers in IAF left by late induction of LCA. 

Regarding the recent experience of the Mirage upgrade - Why can't we put some clause that allows us to upgrade ourselves. Or from a third party (maybe Jews or Christians)?

For ToT, we have FGFA right? With FGFA, and later AMCA possibly using similar/same systems; wouldn't that be our indigenous standard for targeting/communication links, etc? Introduction of those 5 gen systems (shared with AMCA/FGFA) in later upgrades of these 126 birds would be a cost effective and practical step.

So, I believe we should go for L1 and that too from a manufacturer who can send them fast, We needed them yesterday.


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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> Funny, first you favoured the Mig, because it was cheap and now you suddenly favour the most expensive one?
> 
> Maybe we should get a clear picture of what upgrades we are talking here:
> 
> 
> 
> Livefist: Eurofighter Unveils Future Roadmap For Typhoon
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So far the EF partners have funded and ordered the phase 1 enhancements till T3A and most likely will add the METEOR missile, although no partner country has ordered it so far.
> To fulfill the requirements of MMRCA, the consortium companies decided to pre-fund the AESA development, because the partner countries don't have the money for the development, nor ordered T3B fighters, that would need AESA.
> *That means all other upgrades of the T3B are not funded and depending IAF requirements would have to be funded by India + parts of the AESA radar development!*
> 
> 
> The Rafale on the other side, like shown on the pic has nearly all these upgrades already available and proven, or funded by France for the F3+ version that they ordered will be delivered from 2013 onwards!
> 
> Rafale has no glide bomb, but the rocket propelled AASM that offers stand off ranges as well.
> One, or even several new weapons on the lower end, for the anti amour warfare are under evaluation now. The 125Kg version of AASM and LGTR bombs are ready and just needs to be ordered, but the French forces also shows interest in guided rocket pods, or Brimstone missiles:
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-...f-rafale-mmrca-shortlist-114.html#post1866546
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-...f-rafale-mmrca-shortlist-116.html#post1878218
> 
> Both capabilities will enhance the weapon package of the Rafale F3+, besides the already cleared GBU 24, L AASM, AASM 1000 and Meteor.
> Range extention with CFTs was developed and tested in the early 2000s and is just waiting for an customer that pays for the final development and integration.
> So from that list, only SATCOM upgrades would be leff for India to pay for (if required), while the integration of HMS (Topsight, or Gerfaut) would be necessary for India for sure.
> 
> It should be obvious that the Rafale is the better choice, because except of 2 things, all upgrades that the EF could get in future, are already available, or funded by France. That means IAF will get a capable fighter from the start, has no risks of delays, or cost increases during the development and don't have to pay that much more, to get the same features!



I am agreeing on the fighter capability that Rafale is more developed than EFT... but what i cant agree is why India has to pay for the development that has been already quoted in the proposal by EADS?... in future if India needs a capability .... India will pay for its development then we are the owners of the property which we are developing...


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## sancho

kingdurgaking said:


> I am agreeing on the fighter capability that Rafale is more developed than EFT... but what i cant agree is why India has to pay for the development that has been already quoted in the proposal by EADS?... in future if India needs a capability .... India will pay for its development then we are the owners of the property which we are developing...


 
Not sure what you mean by quoted by EADS, but if we wants to be a partner in the programm, we have to take parts of the development costs of course, they did it in the early development of the fighter, if we (Turky, or Japan) join now, we have to do it with the upgrades, or at least those that we want. According to the SLD report, we want 80% that the other partners don't want, which means that we have to pay for most of this alone, while the other upgrades costs (like AESA radar) will be shared.


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## sancho

Nishant said:


> Let us not forget that MMRCA is a stopgap provision to take care of fast depleting aircraft numbers in IAF left by late induction of LCA.
> 
> Regarding the recent experience of the Mirage upgrade - Why can't we put some clause that allows us to upgrade ourselves. Or from a third party (maybe Jews or Christians)?
> 
> For ToT, we have FGFA right? With FGFA, and later AMCA possibly using similar/same systems; wouldn't that be our indigenous standard for targeting/communication links, etc? Introduction of those 5 gen systems (shared with AMCA/FGFA) in later upgrades of these 126 birds would be a cost effective and practical step.
> 
> So, I believe we should go for L1 and that too from a manufacturer who can send them fast, We needed them yesterday.


 
MRCA was aimed as a stop gap procurement, M-MMRCA not! The MoD and IAF riked to have shrinking squad numbers, to get a maximum of advantages out of this deal, especially in terms of ToT, offsets and other industrial advantages that improves our industry. That IAF now gets an even more capable fighter, is a positive side advantage, but they would have been more than happy with Mirage 2000-5s, 5 years ago, be it new, or even 2nd hand. 
Upgrades of foreing fighters depends on how comprehencive the upgrade will be, we could have got radar, or some weapons from the Israelis for the Mirage 2000, but the airframe overhaul, the addition of hardpoints and possibly even RCS reductions would have been done by France anyway, so it's not as easy as it looks. Also our own industry is years behind, so how should we upgrade such a fighter alone, when we have no coparable techs? It's the other way around, we need MMRCA to improve ourself and make LCA MK2, or FGFA more capable, but the ToT, or JV this competition might bring.


----------



## luckyyy

kingdurgaking said:


> I am agreeing on the fighter capability that Rafale is more developed than EFT... but what i cant agree is why India has to pay for the development that has been already quoted in the proposal by EADS?... *in future if India needs a capability .... India will pay for its development then we are the owners of the property which we are developing...*


 
that's exrectly the point , india will be paying only as per the commercical quote on the tender for suppy of 126 fighters as per the tender current specifications and all future upgrades could be jointly funded and india will be the equal co-owners of the new property/systems..

anyway , it's upto EADS to spent the money they got from selling 126 fighter to india in which ever way they want , if they like to spent that money in funding any development of EF , why should we be bother about it...but few people still argue thast look EADS using indian money to fund their projects..


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## Nishant

sancho said:


> MRCA was aimed as a stop gap procurement, M-MMRCA not! The MoD and IAF riked to have shrinking squad numbers, to get a maximum of advantages out of this deal, especially in terms of ToT, offsets and other industrial advantages that improves our industry. That IAF now gets an even more capable fighter, is a positive side advantage, but they would have been more than happy with Mirage 2000-5s, 5 years ago, be it new, or even 2nd hand.
> Upgrades of foreing fighters depends on how comprehencive the upgrade will be, we could have got radar, or some weapons from the Israelis for the Mirage 2000, but the airframe overhaul, the addition of hardpoints and possibly even RCS reductions would have been done by France anyway, so it's not as easy as it looks. Also our own industry is years behind, so how should we upgrade such a fighter alone, when we have no coparable techs? It's the other way around, we need MMRCA to improve ourself and make LCA MK2, or FGFA more capable, but the ToT, or JV this competition might bring.


 
Thanks for the perspective. It clearly is not as simple as it looks.

Let's hope the Babus who did not see this alarming decrease in Fighter numbers coming, get the best out of this purchase.

It hurts when the french and the Russians charge exorbitant prices for upgrades. But at least we get the best there is; and isn't that what National Defense is all about.


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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> Not sure what you mean by quoted by EADS, but if we wants to be a partner in the programm, we have to take parts of the development costs of course, they did it in the early development of the fighter, if we (Turky, or Japan) join now, we have to do it with the upgrades, or at least those that we want. According to the SLD report, we want 80% that the other partners don't want, which means that we have to pay for most of this alone, while the other upgrades costs (like AESA radar) will be shared.


 
Yes that means we will be the owner.. and we will hold the IP for the money we are spending right?.. if we want custom we will only have to spend it.. like MKI where we spent lot of money customizing it.. so MK configurations which has India hands needs India go just like MKM...


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## sancho

Nishant said:


> Thanks for the perspective. It clearly is not as simple as it looks.
> 
> Let's hope the Babus who did not see this alarming decrease in Fighter numbers coming, get the best out of this purchase.
> 
> It hurts when the french and the Russians charge exorbitant prices for upgrades. But at least we get the best there is; and isn't that what National Defense is all about.



It's often too easy to critisize them, for low quality (Russians), or high costs (Russians and French), but I think we forget the good sides too ease. Don't forget that both of them proved to be reliable to India, when the rest of the world wasn't, that their defence industry is boosting ours the most with JV, co-developments and that they offered us total indipendent operation without restrictions and source codes.
All this makes the higher costs worth it, especially in terms of the French/European side, because they have also the required quality of parts and a safe aftersale support, which is important for our forces as well. 
We civillians tend to forget these things, especially during peace times, but our forces looks at the costs from their experience during war times and that's why they do know how important quality and reliability are and if they are worth it.




kingdurgaking said:


> Yes that means we will be the owner.. and we will hold the IP for the money we are spending right?.. if we want custom we will only have to spend it.. like MKI where we spent lot of money customizing it.. so MK configurations which has India hands needs India go just like MKM...


 
I doubt we will get the IP rights, because it will remain a partnership and no it's not like MKI, because we could customize it with Indian, or foreign parts, that won't be possible (at least with foreign parts) with the EF. They have their upgrade road map, offered by the EF consortium and we can choose to fund any upgrade they offer.


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## sancho

luckyyy said:


> it's upto EADS to spent the money they got from selling 126 fighter to india in which ever way they want , if they like to spent that money in funding any development of EF


 
Which is the the point that you don't understand, because it is not the EF consortium that has not the money to develop, they developed TVC, AESA demos, PIMAWS and other techs, pre-funded by them, but there is no customer that is ready to pay the these things, because the customers now have no interest in most of it.


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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> I doubt we will get the IP rights, because it will remain a partnership and no it's not like MKI, because we could customize it with Indian, or foreign parts, that won't be possible (at least with foreign parts) with the EF. They have their upgrade road map, offered by the EF consortium and we can choose to fund any upgrade they offer.


 
No that will be the deal.. even if you take UAE F-16.. UAE funded it .. and they are the owner of the IP... where LM will pay royalty to UAE if some one opts for it...


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## sancho

kingdurgaking said:


> No that will be the deal.. even if you take UAE F-16.. UAE funded it .. and they are the owner of the IP... where LM will pay royalty to UAE if some one opts for it...


 
UAE funded the new development and integration, neither the radar, nor the avionics of the B60 was planned to be part of the F16 initially. That's why older F16 B52 will not get the B60 upgrades, but the AESA radar and EWS from Raytheon instead.
The techs we would like to integrate additionally into EF, are from the EF roadmap itself and will not be developed just for us, any older, or future EF customer would get them as well.


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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> UAE funded the new development and integration, neither the radar, nor the avionics of the B60 was planned to be part of the F16 initially. That's why older F16 B52 will not get the B60 upgrades, but the AESA radar and EWS from Raytheon instead.
> The techs we would like to integrate additionally into EF, are from the EF roadmap itself and will not be developed just for us, any older, or future EF customer would get them as well.


 
There are 3 things..
1) Development only for India--> IP will be part of India just like UAE
2) Development part of Consortium --> India will get if it is part of the Proposal that EADS has submitte to MoD within the $11 billion --> No extra money
3) Future upgrades part of road map --> India if interested will pay the development.. and will get it with the same price what others will get...

Secondly are you in opinion that if you develop a product you wont charge it even for development??.... but basically every one does it.. for (e.g.) in T-50 program India will get less compared to other export price... because the vendor doesnt want to be in loss... there is probability that the export prices will be more compared to be part of the development


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## angeldemon_007

*Le Bourget 2011*


























*Triple GBU-49 loadout and TDA-LR68 rocket pod
The rocket pod could be integrated on the 3rd wing point of the Rafale*


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## angeldemon_007

*Le Bourget 2011*





*Triple Brimstone loadout*





*Triple GBU-49 loadout, GBU-12, GBU-22 and GBU-24*





*Sagem AASM-1000, AASM-500, AASM-250 and AASM-125*





*MBDA Meteor, Mica EM and Mica IR
An AM-39 exocet can also be seen on the centerline pylon*





*Triple GBU-49, TDA-LR68 rocket pod, damocles pod, GBU-24*

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## angeldemon_007

*Le Bourget 2011*





*GBU-49, close-up on the head GPS antenna*





*Left : Rafale M28 in A2A and antiship config
Right : Rafale C101 in CAS/interdiction config*





*DGA display
Rafale throttle stick*





*DGA display
Rafale HUD and HLD
bi-Color HUD digital demonstrator
Note the collimated HLD*





*Rafale HUD
bi-Color HUD digital demonstrator
Note the real time 3D ground display*


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## angeldemon_007

*Le Bourget 2011*





*Thales
Rafale fused tactical display*





*Thales
Rafale simplified A2A fused tactical display*





*Thales
Topsight/Tophowl-F HMD on a Gallet LA100 Helmet*





*Thales
Topsight/Tophowl-F HMD on a Gallet LA100 Helmet*





*Ulmer UA21S oxygen masks*


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## angeldemon_007

*Ulmer UA21S oxygen mask*





*Thales
RBE-2 AESA module side view
Note that there are 8 modules in each pack*





*Thales
Rafale CIT TSB 2510 IFF interrogator-transponder*





*MBDA
DDM-NG, New generation Missile Approch Warning system for Rafale F3O-T4*





*MBDA
DDM-NG, New generation Missile Approch Warning system for Rafale F3O-T4
picture from the Mirage 2000 test bench*


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## angeldemon_007

*Rafale model with a 3 scalp cruise missile and 6 Mica config
Note : It is said that this loadout is a requirement for the UAE*





*Rafale models in A2A, antiship and pinpoint strike config*





*Rafale model with the classic 6 AASM, 3x2000L tanks and damocles pod loadout*





*Safran / Sagem
AASM/Hammer head mechanical interface close-up*





*Safran / Sagem
AASM/Hammer head types (GPS-Laser, GPS-IIR and GPS)*

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## angeldemon_007

*Raffaut tripple pylon attachement close-up*





*Safran / Snecma M88-2 engine*





*M88-2 engine - nozzle attachement close-up*





*Le Bourget Air & Space museum
Rafale A demonstrator
Mirage 4000 prototype in the background*

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## sancho

kingdurgaking said:


> There are 3 things..
> 1) Development only for India--> IP will be part of India just like UAE
> 2) Development part of Consortium --> India will get if it is part of the Proposal that EADS has submitte to MoD within the $11 billion --> No extra money
> 3) Future upgrades part of road map --> India if interested will pay the development.. and will get it with the same price what others will get...
> 
> Secondly are you in opinion that if you develop a product you wont charge it even for development??.... but basically every one does it.. for (e.g.) in T-50 program India will get less compared to other export price... because the vendor doesnt want to be in loss... there is probability that the export prices will be more compared to be part of the development




Number 3, as I mentioned before, the B60 upgrade for UAE was totally different, at a stage they even thought about redesigning the airframe, let alone the radar and avionics. That's a way bigger upgrade than choosing to fund an upgrade that is on the roadmap anyway.
Take the UAE requirements for Rafale as an example, where they want more power and radar modes for the RBE 2 AESA. These kinds of upgrades are planned for a later stage anyway, but the UAE is ready to fund them earlier. Same for METEOR missile, which the French will integrate to have it by 2018, because according their timeframes, MICA EM will be replaced by then only. For export customers on the other hand it could be available from 2016 onwards, but it seems that the UAE wants it even earlier (which might not be possible, because of the development of the missile itself) and they might fund some early integrations, but all this will make the UAE Rafales just more capable, or earlier upgraded then the French. The UAE won't get IP rights of RBE 2 AESA, nor ot METEOR, only because they funded the early integration, nor will they be a partner of the Rafale fighter project!
That's the big difference to the EF offer in MMRCA, because they don't just offer us to fund some integration, but to be a partner, which requires taking a share of the development costs. The partners paid that in the early development stages of the fighter, if we want to join now, we have to fund a big part of the T3B alone and some parts together with them, to get a comparable partner status.

You mean for exports right? Of course, parts of the development costs are diverted to the system cost that any export customer pays, that's how the manufacturers gets some of the fundings back. But even IF (from Brazil it was reported, that the French reduced the price, to a level that French forces normally pays) we would pay this for the Rafale, the total cost would be way less than what we would have to pay for a comparable EF, because France already funded most of the development, or weapon integrations. As I showed on the EF roadmap itself, there are only 1, or 2 features that are not already available with the Rafale, or funded to be available since 2013. 

France pays around $90 millions each Rafale at the moment, the EF partners for their T3A without AESA, or all those other future enhancements around $125 millions. Both prices are flyaway costs and don't include development costs!
To get the EF at the same capability level that the Rafale F3+ offers, we would have to fund:

- AESA radar (partially)
- Storm Shadow (partially, Saudis wants it too)
- CFTs necessary for Storm Shadow, or 2000lb bombs (partially, UK has interest as well)
- Brimstone ATGM (so far, no other customer has interest, but UK might joint)
- SEAD weapon (partially, no AR missile will be developed, but JDAM might be integrated and with further ESM upgrades, EF could do SEAD in a similar way like Rafale with SPECTRA and AASM)
- HOSBO extended range bomb (fully, because no other customer has interest yet)
- RBS 15 anti ship missile (fully, because no other customer has interest yet)
- IR MAWS (fully, because no other customer has interest yet)
- Recce, or advanced targeting pods (fully, because no other customer has interest yet)

And these are only the improvments from the roadmap, not included are TVC, further upgrades to the engine, or avionics, comparable to those that the Rafale F3+ will have as well, the costs for more radar modes, because Captor E will have only A2A modes at the begining.

We will get partner status in the EF program and will be able to negotiate for upgrades beyond the MLU (EF 2020), but the only EF upgrade that would be made for our requirements, is the Sea Typhoon. Neither the partner, no another potential export customer is in sight and that why they offere us most of the ToT, or even IP rights from that versions, which on the other side means again huge development costs from us in addition to the above mentioned unit and upgrade costs!

The EF is neither a capable, nor cost-effective fighter and can only be justified by industrial and political advantages. But with LCA, N-LCA, FGFA, possibly even AMCA, there is simply no reason why we should pay such high costs for upgrading another fighter.

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## kingdurgaking

I think there is no need for a big reply... 

If you choose 3 --> As i am part of the product life cycle.. as i understand.. but there is a gap in which you have explained..$90 million is the fly away cost which according to you mean the parts cost and the assemble cost around $90 million?.. if you think so .. you are wrong... a fly away cost will include development cost also.. basically fly away cost will be kept on the demand on projection.. If Dassault keeps the fly away cost $90 million ... if they think they will have a demand for some 500 piece but with a confirmed order on there kitty like the french order(180 piece).. which means out of the 180 piece which they are delievering to the french government they would recover with a base cut off cost may be 30% -50% in there development life cycle.. as i heared if they spent 45 billion dollar in developing the 

To keep it simple lets take F-35.. while the base development is fixed the cost of F-35 increases with time and delay.. do you know why? it is because of the development, testing and resource cost... that is how the entire product works out.. no where the companies will put themselves in loss... 

secondly France already funded the program is not necessary that they will not include the development cost in the fly away cost.. If France split the cost for 500 piece and if the sale has not happened for 500 piece.. defintely the MLU is going to cost more... Just like it happened with Mirage... because the cost they have incurred has to be recovered... Mirage upgrade is not costing more because it closed... because the development involved is part of Rafale.. and thats why they are very huge as the demand is not up to the level they have expected.. They knew IAF has to pay the cost they demand because the Airframe and engine has got another 5-10 years life left in it.. and they knew IAF will not waste the life ... either way Mirage 2000 seems to be loss for IAF because if upgrade doesnt go through .... it will not be worth for the life.. if it goes through it will a highly expensive.. this is the result of bad Management


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## sancho

kingdurgaking said:


> $90 million is the fly away cost which according to you mean the parts cost and the assemble cost around $90 million?.. if you think so .. you are wrong... a fly away cost will include development cost also



No they won't, that is the cost to produce the fighter including radar, engines and all avionics for French forces. France already paid the development costs of the fighter an the techs beforehand, adding them to the flyway cost again would mean they have to pay the same costs twice! 

Also:



> The total program cost for the state is 39.6 billion euros (financial conditions as at 1 January 2008) which brings the unit cost per aircraft (*excluding development*) from 64 to 70 million depending versions



Google Translate


Mirage upgrade is a different story, but you should keep in mind that techs developed and produced in Europe, or in Euro are obviously more expensive than Russian counterparts.
I explained it often enough in the dedicated threads, that the there is once no cheaper alternative to the upgrade and secondly the costs speculated in the media not reliable, because they vary too much. Also, we pay more and get more in return as well, because we know that the French/European techs and arms offers more quality and reliability compared to Russians. IAF knows very well why they insist for nearly a decade now to get either more Mirage 2000s.


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## rockstarIN

^^ Why can't we just add ELTA 2032 + Pyton-5+derby instead of going to french. those technologies are as good as french systems.

I think French will allow the same if we give MMRCA to them.


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## sancho

rockstar said:


> ^^ Why can't we just add ELTA 2032 + Pyton-5+derby instead of going to french. those technologies are as good as french systems.
> 
> I think French will allow the same if we give MMRCA to them.


 
Nobody said they wouldn't but we have to split the upgrade into a French part (overhaul of the airframe...) and an Israeli (radar and avionics), which would increase the costs again and would delay things. For an upgrade of just 50 fighters it's simply not worth it.


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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> No they won't, that is the cost to produce the fighter including radar, engines and all avionics for French forces. France already paid the development costs of the fighter an the techs beforehand, adding them to the flyway cost again would mean they have to pay the same costs twice!
> 
> Also:
> 
> Google Translate
> 
> 
> Mirage upgrade is a different story, but you should keep in mind that techs developed and produced in Europe, or in Euro are obviously more expensive than Russian counterparts.
> I explained it often enough in the dedicated threads, that the there is once no cheaper alternative to the upgrade and secondly the costs speculated in the media not reliable, because they vary too much. Also, we pay more and get more in return as well, because we know that the French/European techs and arms offers more quality and reliability compared to Russians. IAF knows very well why they insist for nearly a decade now to get either more Mirage 2000s.


 
So dassault wont sell it to 64 - 70 million unless French government is ready to eat the loss... I dont think any country would do it .. it will be just wasting the tax payers money.. which a government will be not able to justify under the name of security... an Export is generaly done to increase the prospect.. if 60-70 million is the cost then the selling price w.r.t MMRCA will be definitely more adding to this there is offset clause of 50% i bet no way they are going to sell there aircraft for 60-70 million it will be definitely over 90 or even 100 million...


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## sancho

kingdurgaking said:


> So dassault wont sell it to 64 - 70 million unless French government is ready to eat the loss... I dont think any country would do it .. it will be just wasting the tax payers money.. which a government will be not able to justify under the name of security... an Export is generaly done to increase the prospect.. if 60-70 million is the cost then the selling price w.r.t MMRCA will be definitely more adding to this there is offset clause of 50% i bet no way they are going to sell there aircraft for 60-70 million it will be definitely over 90 or even 100 million...


 
As I said, reports from Brazil suggested that their last offer was without development costs and the prospect there is for up to 100 fighters, while our minimum requirement is higher than that. Wining such a big deal, would bring way more money in return for France and their companies, because it's a deal that goes on for 30 to 40 years.

Btw:



> *Europe asks Korea to join Eurofighter program*
> 
> A multination consortium in Europe has invited Korea to join its high-end jet production project in an apparent attempt to win what would be Korea&#8217;s biggest arms-procurement deal...



Europe asks Korea to join Eurofighter program


So after India, Japan and Turkey, they now begging S. Korea to join, just shows how desperate they are to find a customer that not only takes over their orders, but also funds the upgrades. Not to mention that any other nation that joins, would be one more that we have to negotiate with!


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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> As I said, reports from Brazil suggested that their last offer was without development costs and the prospect there is for up to 100 fighters, while our minimum requirement is higher than that. Wining such a big deal, would bring way more money in return for France and their companies, because it's a deal that goes on for 30 to 40 years.



Sancho... That is wrong to say if the product runs for 30-40 years the manufacture will get the money in return (this is not a bank interest scheme)... If you buy a product and you go in AMC... you will have resource and the money will also need in things like manufacturing , transportation etc etc (the customer will not be stupid enough to pay more for the spare parts he will choose the alternate ways that is why customer spends lot of money initially to train the ground staff for maintenance).. For 30-40 years the product will give employment opportunity to the vendor but not the returns.. with avionics the value get absolute in a 5-10 years.. so the manufacture will not be stupid enough or the country will not be stupid enough to have a loss.. because the money they get in profit by selling there fighter plane to other countries will be invested back in developing or evolving the technologies further.. if you say France is taking all the risk by eating the development cost... India is not worried yes India benifits if France goes in loss.. but do you think France will really go in loss .. how will the government will answer to the Investment of the tax payers money? France if they get into this vicious circle they will have recession soon and secondly economy or trading doesn't work this way

secondly Reports from Brazil is from Dassualt?.. Other reports we cant take it as baseline.. We have to see the clause what is fly away price w.r.t to Dassault.. Terms varies with vendors.. For sure.. Development cost will be added ... If not we get the best deal.. No other country will give us this opportunity.. any way Euro 65 million is too much a fly away cost....


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## rockstarIN

*New glide missile to arm Eurofighter Typhoon*

ÜRNBERG, GERMANY (BNS): Germany&#8217;s Diehl Defence and Israel&#8217;s Rafael Advanced Defense Systems are designing a new glide missile that will be fitted on Eurofighter Typhoon fighter jets.

The new PILUM air-to-surface missile with short to medium range has been unveiled for the first time at the Paris Air Show last month.

The new weapon is a derivative of the Diehl-designed HOSBO precision-guided bomb that has been specifically designed for Eurofighter Typhoon fighters.

The PILUM missile will use the HOSBO airframe, guidance and control section as well as the aircraft interface of the glide weapon in combination with the unique &#8220;scene-matching technology&#8221; of Rafael&#8217;s SPICE airborne system, Diehl said.

The missile will use GPS/INS guidance system and would be fitted with dual-band seeker that will help in tracking down moving enemy targets.

The PILUM missile will be used against ships, enemy radar positions as well as air defence systems.

&#8220;This solution meets operational requirements such as close-in air support, aerial sealing off, air-based anti-ship engagement as well as suppressing and eliminating the adversary&#8217;s air defence,&#8221; the German defence firm said.

Developed by the European consortium led by Germany, UK, Italy and Spain, the Eurofighter Typhoon multi-role combat planes are presently operational in six countries.


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## houshanghai

http://player.youku.com/player.php/sid/XODgwMDA2OA==/v.swf

Typhoons videos


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## sancho

kingdurgaking said:


> Sancho... That is wrong to say if the product runs for 30-40 years the manufacture will get the money in return (this is not a bank interest scheme)...



Why? The initial cost of MMRCA is estimated at around $12 billion, but's that's just the start! The total costs of the procurement is expected to cross the $35 billions over the planed life cycle, because of the additional spare, weapons, upgrade sales that are necessary. So if Dassault don't included the development costs into such big sales like for India, UAE, or Brazil to fix the deal, the outcome over the lifecycle is way higher, than loosing this opportunity and just taking smaller sales like Kuwait, or Qatar, where they can divert the development costs again.
That's even very normal in such deals, the higher the numbers you order, the higher the reductions of cost. But as I said, even if parts of the development costs would be included, the Rafale would still be cheaper per unit, than if India has to fund all these upgrades for EF alone and if they would offer a partnership, the we would get the same flyaway cost anyway. 




kingdurgaking said:


> secondly Reports from Brazil is from Dassualt?...



No, Brazilian media reports about the competition and the outcome of their trials.



kingdurgaking said:


> any way Euro 65 million is too much a fly away cost....


 
I guess IAF/MoD don't think so, otherwise they wouldn't have shortlisted the 2 fighters that are the most expensive one, not to mention that the EF is even more expensive. Cost is always realative, because it is important to see what you get in return!
European aircrafts are more costly then Russian, or US counterparts, because they offer more quality and reliability than the Russians, or less restrictions and more industrial benefits than the US. So by paying more, we for their arms and techs, we also get more in return and that's something that we learn from most of the competitions:

MMRCA: Rafale/EF shortlisted over Russian and US fighters
LUH: EC Fennec won the competition over Russian and US helicopters before and is the favourite now again
Tanker: A330 MRTT won the competition over Russian aircrafts
Trainer: HAWK and Pilatus as it seems, over Russian, or US
VIP helicopter: EH 101 won over US helicopter


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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> Why? The initial cost of MMRCA is estimated at around $12 billion, but's that's just the start! The total costs of the procurement is expected to cross the $35 billions over the planed life cycle, because of the additional spare, weapons, upgrade sales that are necessary. So if Dassault don't included the development costs into such big sales like for India, UAE, or Brazil to fix the deal, the outcome over the lifecycle is way higher, than loosing this opportunity and just taking smaller sales like Kuwait, or Qatar, where they can divert the development costs again.
> That's even very normal in such deals, the higher the numbers you order, the higher the reductions of cost. But as I said, even if parts of the development costs would be included, the Rafale would still be cheaper per unit, than if India has to fund all these upgrades for EF alone and if they would offer a partnership, the we would get the same flyaway cost anyway.


Man... I will tell you business doesnt work that way.. You are giving a new business model ( a loss model)... If you telling about lifecycle cost which the government is considering the deciding factor.. Dassault will not be in a posistion to increase the lifecycle cost to cover the development cost(where EFT will become a clear winner) and give India a fly away cost and this will be a loss only to dassault on long term..let me explain you how the business is.... consider the 100 dollar they are investing today will double in 3 year(interest kept at high rate to double in 3 years) if they selling it today(with profit invested back so simple interest gets applied).. If the business is deciding to get the 100 dollar back over 3 years the inflation will eat 18 dollars back(for inflatation rate kept at 6) and secondly the profit they get every year will be very less which means some one(Dassault or french government) has to borrow to do the investment.. where dassault will tend to loose another 20-30 dollars over the interest(interest kept at high rate equalizing the profit interest)... the net will be nothing but a loss for dassault... this when you do it in circle over years.. Dassault will have to declare bankruptcy one day... That is why every vendor declare upfront payment and delivery payment.. 

Which is why i asked you who is going to bare the loss?.. French government (no way) thats why they are exporting there product.. If french government eats loss there is no need for them to export just like F-22 which US did... which means French government is not ready to eat loss.. Dassault also cant bear loss if they have to continue the business.. so as i said.. Development cost will be added to the product.. either you are wrong to quote 60 million euros doesnt contain development cost or the price is more which the MoD knows... 

Secondly Quwait and Quatar are not fools to pay more if the same is given to Brazil.. they will surely look for some other product...



sancho said:


> No, Brazilian media reports about the competition and the outcome of their trials.


Media reports cant be trusted dear.. it is not true always.. just like our Media which is still predicting and predicting


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## sancho

@ kingdurgaking

You are thinking about it way too difficult and take to account that there is a steady interest in the product, but that exactly is not the case. Dassault has no exports so far, the EF looks even worse, because of the high cost increases, or the budget cuts of the partners. If they don't get an order soon, the production will end in 2015. Now do you really think, they would rather loose such a big competition, only for some extra millions? UKL is selling 3 year old EFs to low costs and is trying to get rid of the T3 orders as well, which means the EF consortium can not get back any development costs from Oman, or Rumania, that might buy these. Does it meant they won't sell it now? The UK is desperate to save some money on the one side (EF), to spend it on the other side (F35), just like the EF consortium is desperate to win any further deals, to secure at least the production line for some more years. So even when they take a calculated loss at the development costs, they will benefit from any further deal!


Can you explain this once more?:



> Dassault will not be in a posistion to increase the lifecycle cost to cover the development cost(where EFT will become a clear winner) and give India a fly away cost and this will be a loss only to dassault on long term



Why should Dassault increase the lifecycle costs?


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## luckyyy

kingdurgaking said:


> Development cost will be added to the product.. either you are wrong to quote 60 million euros doesnt contain development cost or the price is more which the MoD knows...


 
rightly said ,

Development cost is surly added to the cost , the total fly away cost of a aircraft is :

the development cost / total extimated number of aircrafts to be produce + production cost of each aircraft...

but the production cost could be altered as 50% of the product will be from coming indian companies ..

with 50% domestic components the end cost of both could be very same..

also the lifycycle cost includes the cost of weapons too ,these 126 fighters will be needing a huge numbers of missiles , bombs and additional weaponery....
not only the aircraft but the ToT on weaponery could also be a deciding fector as we have seen in resent perchase of spike missiles ..


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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> @ kingdurgaking
> You are thinking about it way too difficult and take to account that there is a steady interest in the product, but that exactly is not the case. Dassault has no exports so far, the EF looks even worse, because of the high cost increases, or the budget cuts of the partners. If they don't get an order soon, the production will end in 2015. Now do you really think, they would rather loose such a big competition, only for some extra millions? UKL is selling 3 year old EFs to low costs and is trying to get rid of the T3 orders as well, which means the EF consortium can not get back any development costs from Oman, or Rumania, that might buy these. Does it meant they won't sell it now? The UK is desperate to save some money on the one side (EF), to spend it on the other side (F35), just like the EF consortium is desperate to win any further deals, to secure at least the production line for some more years. So even when they take a calculated loss at the development costs, they will benefit from any further deal!
> 
> Can you explain this once more?:
> 
> Why should Dassault increase the lifecycle costs?



First of all UK is selling there 3 year old to others not EADS... which means UK has already paid to EADS... and the report is saying it is a win-win situation because the orders they have placed will be diverted to Oman(which means new planes will go to RAF and older planes go to Oman).. so as to avoid the penalty charges failing to order the aircraft.. and it makes sense for them to sell at lower price because it is a used one and not a brand new piece.. Either way there seems to be a profit for them.. If you look at the number crunching game that they would have submitted to there MoD you will understand it.. So no way EADS has incurred loss nor UK because they have escaped the penalty which seems more than what they have sold to Oman... 

Secondly Man you are not understanding.. Just for the production line to run for one more decade(which is not going to happen incase of MMRCA).. will they be ready to loose billions? no way.. Dassault is not in a position to loose millions in Mirage2K upgrade.. thats why they have clear indication saying.. either you give this money or buy Rafale... The cost clearly shows the development cost is added in the MLU which has creep-ed the upgrade to exorbitant level .. which means development cost will be added to MMRCA but will be less because of the CAP orders inconsideration .. so eighter Euro 65 million includes development cost or the cost of the plane will be more.. secondly you have to understand that MMRCA has a strict DPP ... they have to invest back 50% back into India.. If you are telling they will sell there Plane only at fly away cost.. they have to still setup the industry base and transfer the technology to India.. which will cost them more... they will not have any penny saved .. secondly there assembly will only manufacture 18 aircraft and incremently the full scale production will start in India ..in 3-4 years down the lane.. Most of the raw-material manufacturing will happen in India only... except some critical technology ... so where are they saving it?..


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## sancho

kingdurgaking said:


> First of all UK is selling there 3 year old to others not EADS... which means UK has already paid to EADS... and the report is saying it is a win-win situation because the orders they have placed will be diverted to Oman(*which means new planes will go to RAF and older planes go to Oman*).. so as to avoid the penalty charges failing to order the aircraft...
> ...So no way EADS has incurred loss nor UK because they have escaped the penalty which seems more than what they have sold to Oman...



RAF is selling their fighters, but so far is not has not ordered new once to replace them and so far it's also not clear if Oman will take the old once, or some new once of the initial T3B order of the RAF. Either way, that deal will bring the UK, no development costs in return, because they will be sold for the costs that the RAF would paid, or would pay, most likely even less! 
The point is, there will be no new orders, where development costs could be added and even hardly 3 year old EFs will be sold for low costs, because RAF can't afford to upgrade, or maintain them. UK will loose a lot of money for sure and they can just reduce it, by diverting the T3B orders to other customers. 
Btw, EADS is just a part of the consortium, not the EF manufacturer.




kingdurgaking said:


> Dassault is not in a position to loose millions in Mirage2K upgrade.. thats why they have clear indication saying.. *either you give this money or buy Rafale*...



They don't have to, they know IAF loves the Mirage and wants to upgrade it and at the same time they are offering it's successor, which has a lot of fans in the Indian forces as well. There is simply no real need for them to give us a low cost upgrade. That has nothing to do with development costs, but with the fact that they prefer to sell us new fighters where they can keep benefiting for the next 30 to 40 years, instead of a simple upgrade for older Mirage for just 10 years.
That's also a reason why they didn't kept the Mirage productionline open and offered the Rafale later, because they new their chances in India are quit good. Not to mention that if we take Rafale instead of the Mirage upgrade, MMRCA is decided as well, because IAF would not add another fighter, that's why Dassault is offering 40 Rafales since 2008.
It's simply a business trick, to sell us the latest fighter and make more profit, but has nothing to do with development costs.




kingdurgaking said:


> secondly you have to understand that MMRCA has a strict DPP ... they have to invest back 50% back into India.. If you are telling they will sell there Plane only at fly away cost.. they have to still setup the industry base and transfer the technology to India.. which will cost them more... they will not have any penny saved...



I highly doubt that we will see 50% offsets, that just the benchmark MoD placed to negotiate with the vendors, but be it Dassault, the EF consortium, or Boeing officials, they all said that this is not feasable. On the other side the French actually don't have to build up that much completelly new, because they already have several JV running with Indian counterparts in that regard. Samtel alone could provide the display, HMS and as it seems IRST of Rafale, not to forget that the Kaveri - Snecma, or Shakti engine deal for LUH are fields where offsets will be placed for sure, to GTRE and HAL. I also hope for Thales as a co-development partner for Tejas AESA, in case ELTA is not available, which then would be diverted to LRDE again. 

I never said that they are selling Rafale only at flyaway cost, I said they might do it for the same flyaway cost they have and don't development costs on it. The systemcost, which includes training, spares and even some weapons would be way higher of course. 



kingdurgaking said:


> secondly there assembly will only manufacture 18 aircraft and incremently the full scale production will start in India ..in 3-4 years down the lane.. Most of the raw-material manufacturing will happen in India only... except some critical technology ... so where are they saving it?..



The 18 fighters will be fully produced in France, but even after that they will produce a lot of parts that will be assembled in India only. Look at MKI for example, the licence production started in 2004 I think, but the first fully produced MKI made by HAL came out only in 2010 only. So don't expect that the MMRCAs will be fully produced directly when the licence production starts. It will take years till HAL, or other Indian suppliers will have absorbed the ToT and production routines, to provide us with all the parts.


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## Abingdonboy

Any idea where the N-MMRCA is at? Or are IN waiting for results of IAF MMRCA or induction of Vikramditya so IN can their own needs? ie STOBAR or CATBAR as if it is STOBAR then N-EFT, N-Gripen an Mig-29k (possibly F-35B) are contenders if CATBAR then SH, RAFELE-M and F-35C are contenders.


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## angeldemon_007

^^^
I haven't heard any news yet but i think they are not in a hurry. Since IAC2 is planned only after IAC1 is ready, my guess is IN will place order then. Most probably it will be Rafale, there is a little chance for F35 but i doubt they will go for platform which has no experience of AC operation (EF and Gripen). I think F18 has better chance to win than these 2 but in comparison to Rafale it doesn't stand a chance because IN has already said its too huge for their AC.


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## Luftwaffe

indian Rafale fans if anyone interested in avionics magazine 2011 regarding a brief updates on Rafale Avionics hit the link I've uploaded my subscribed file. 

Avionics2011.pdf

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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> RAF is selling their fighters, but so far is not has not ordered new once to replace them and so far it's also not clear if Oman will take the old once, or some new once of the initial T3B order of the RAF. Either way, that deal will bring the UK, no development costs in return, because they will be sold for the costs that the RAF would paid, or would pay, most likely even less!
> The point is, there will be no new orders, where development costs could be added and even hardly 3 year old EFs will be sold for low costs, because RAF can't afford to upgrade, or maintain them. UK will loose a lot of money for sure and they can just reduce it, by diverting the T3B orders to other customers.
> Btw, EADS is just a part of the consortium, not the EF manufacturer.



First of all RAF will not pay the development cost while buying the fighter because they have invested it.. That is the thin line you have to understand.. RAF will get at fly away price because the development cost is invested to developed it.. Secondly RAF is selling them to Oman and Not EADS which you have to understand.. thats why RAF is selling them at less price compared to EADS selling us and they could be even less because this is how it goes.. First of all penalty not in buying aircraft + amount in maintaining the spares (i.e.) life cycle cost + training + what ever.. if you some up they are in huge loss than selling them to Oman at less price which is actually a profit for them.. Either way they are not ordering new typhoon and there Typhoons are also sold.. and they are covering the loss with a kind of margin profit.. so neigther RAF is loosing or EADS right?.. 



sancho said:


> They don't have to, they know IAF loves the Mirage and wants to upgrade it and at the same time they are offering it's successor, which has a lot of fans in the Indian forces as well. There is simply no real need for them to give us a low cost upgrade. That has nothing to do with development costs, but with the fact that they prefer to sell us new fighters where they can keep benefiting for the next 30 to 40 years, instead of a simple upgrade for older Mirage for just 10 years.
> That's also a reason why they didn't kept the Mirage productionline open and offered the Rafale later, because they new their chances in India are quit good. Not to mention that if we take Rafale instead of the Mirage upgrade, MMRCA is decided as well, because IAF would not add another fighter, that's why Dassault is offering 40 Rafales since 2008.
> It's simply a business trick, to sell us the latest fighter and make more profit, but has nothing to do with development costs.
> 
> I highly doubt that we will see 50% offsets, that just the benchmark MoD placed to negotiate with the vendors, but be it Dassault, the EF consortium, or Boeing officials, they all said that this is not feasable. On the other side the French actually don't have to build up that much completelly new, because they already have several JV running with Indian counterparts in that regard. Samtel alone could provide the display, HMS and as it seems IRST of Rafale, not to forget that the Kaveri - Snecma, or Shakti engine deal for LUH are fields where offsets will be placed for sure, to GTRE and HAL. I also hope for Thales as a co-development partner for Tejas AESA, in case ELTA is not available, which then would be diverted to LRDE again.
> 
> I never said that they are selling Rafale only at flyaway cost, I said they might do it for the same flyaway cost they have and don't development costs on it. The systemcost, which includes training, spares and even some weapons would be way higher of course.
> 
> 
> 
> The 18 fighters will be fully produced in France, but even after that they will produce a lot of parts that will be assembled in India only. Look at MKI for example, the licence production started in 2004 I think, but the first fully produced MKI made by HAL came out only in 2010 only. So don't expect that the MMRCAs will be fully produced directly when the licence production starts. It will take years till HAL, or other Indian suppliers will have absorbed the ToT and production routines, to provide us with all the parts.


 
Dude you are not understanding how the cost is calculated for MLU.. Just like that a number wont crop up for the upgrade... First of all they will have to give explanation for the demand.. this is not a software product.. For (e.g.) take the gorshkov deal.. do you think Russian demanded the money just like that and GoI paid just like that?.. what do you think it made them to settle for the amount?.. They explain all the cost for the GoI and Indian Navy (development, deployment etc during negotiation).. For Mirage IAF themselves feel the cost is more because they understand most of the cost is charged on IAF which they are trying to bring down.. and Thales refused because the Mirage is not open and there is no future prospect.. IAF may consider it because there is life still in the airframe which they dont want to waste.. which is why Thales would have proposed it because If you buy Rafael the development cost would go down as there is a CAP number on which the cost would be split.. There is no doubt IAF loves Mirage and Rafael.. And there is no real business trick.. If you see the inner.. Mirage is closed and it would suit more for france if Rafael is sold... 

Secondly on offset i agree 50% is nearly impossible because there is no point in selling fighters.. Most probably on Negotiation the offset value may come up to 35% which comes nearly $3-4 billion.. which is substantially high ... and if Dassault is not including the Development cost say they have charged Euro65 and lets keep it approximately $80(only for the airframe without any weapons and other extra fittings) it nearly comes to $10 billion.. so they have to invest 3 billion back which comes to $4billion.. lets say the cost to manufacture the plane is just $20 million after ToT and offset manufacture assembly set up it comes to nearly $2.5billion ... so what they can expect it on $3.5billion.. it doesnt even come close to $50 billion not even 1% of the cost is recovered.. so you have to agree Dassault is not getting in selling fighters to India.. so you have to understand &#8364;65 includes development cost or the Rafale price will be more.. 

And on manufacturing at HAL.. Look at MKI today.. 90% of it is manufactured in India only from the raw materials.. Just some critical component comes from Russia like Engine hot section , Radar software and Modules etc...Yes this has taken nearly 4 -5 years to happen.. I do agree for MMRCA it will take 3-4 years.. but it wont be of the same level as the first 18.. thats why i said the production line at France will not be dependent on India.. just 10-20% of the production line will work.. Rest will rest in peace..


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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> Any idea where the N-MMRCA is at? Or are IN waiting for results of IAF MMRCA or induction of Vikramditya so IN can their own needs? ie STOBAR or CATBAR as if it is STOBAR then N-EFT, N-Gripen an Mig-29k (possibly F-35B) are contenders if CATBAR then SH, RAFELE-M and F-35C are contenders.


 
It might depend more on the development and production progress of IAC1 and if catapults will be available for us, which will depend on the US. The IAF MMRCA deal will have a bearing only if Rafale wins, because the Sea Typhoon will be simply too expensive and immature to be a real solution for IN. Like angeldemon_007 said, Rafale, F18SH and as an outsider the F35 should be the only real contenders, especially if there are possibilities that naval FGFA, or AMCA in future would be used on these carriers as well.

STOBAR layout doesn't mean the Rafale couldn't be used, because it is redesigned for the same arrested landing as well, while unassisted depends only enough thrust and a deck that is long enough. Size and weightwise the Rafale M is smaller and lighter than our Mig 29Ks, while offering similar thrust. IN evaluated the Rafale M and F18 in the early 2000s, when they started the planing stage for IAC1, but in that time catapults were not available from the US and the Gorshkov deal was a fixed deal with Russian fighters. Su 33s were too big for these small carriers, which left us with the Mig 29 and the N-LCA.


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## sancho

kingdurgaking said:


> First of all RAF will not pay the development cost while buying the fighter because they have invested it.. That is the thin line you have to understand.. RAF will get at fly away price because the development cost is invested to developed it.. Secondly RAF is selling them to Oman and Not EADS which you have to understand.. thats why RAF is selling them at less price compared to EADS selling us and they could be even less because this is how it goes.. First of all penalty not in buying aircraft + amount in maintaining the spares (i.e.) life cycle cost + training + what ever.. if you some up they are in huge loss than selling them to Oman at less price which is actually a profit for them.. Either way they are not ordering new typhoon and there Typhoons are also sold.. and they are covering the loss with a kind of margin profit.. so neigther RAF is loosing or EADS right?..



Let me explain it differently...

The UK paid money for the development of the EF and to buy a certain number of fighters. To get profit out of exports and some of the development costs in return, they need to export the EF, but that have to be completely new orders!
The RAF are selling 2nd hand fighters, which as I pointed out are too costly to upgrade, that's why they rather sell them with a calculated loss. But the RAF has also the T3 orders, which they didn't wanted and was forced by Germany to get at least the T3A orders, but there are still the follow orders and if they cancell it, they have to pay penalities. The only way to not pay this, is to divert these orders to export customers, which means that they can buy new EFs, for the costs that the RAF normally would pay, which does not include development costs, because they were paid before.
So the UK can reduce their loss by not paying penalities, by selling these fighters to Oman for example, but will not get any of the development costs back.
Sweden btw is doing the same! They ordered many Gripens initially, but bugdet cuts forced them to get rid of some, that's why they leased them to other countries, or why they offered us, or now Bulgaria fighters from their own order as a low cost fast to induct deal. 
Germany has ordered the 53 x A400Ms, but new budget cuts force them to reduce the number, but again, cancelling them means paying penalities, that's why they didn't to it and already decided to sell 13 of them to other countries for lower costs and it's likely they they do the same with their T3B orders. 
These are just ways to reduce the loss, but doesn't make any profit and they don't get any development costs back!




kingdurgaking said:


> so what they can expect it on $3.5billion.. it doesnt even come close to $50 billion not even 1% of the cost is recovered..



Of course not, because just like you said, that's the calculation based "only" on the flyaway cost, but Dassault and the other companies that are selling Rafale with the system costs, which includes training, spares, toolings...
From Brazil again, Rafale is rated at around $140 millions systemcost (after the flyaway cost was reduced from to around $80 millions) x 126 = $17.64 billions. Even if you cut 35% for offsets offsets, that's a profit of nearly $11.5 billions with a single deal, not to mention that it will increase through further spare, weapon and upgrade deals over the lifecycle.

As I meantioned earlier, the deal is expected to cost more than $35 billion at the end and that were the speculations before the shortlisting. Not to forget that the money they invest in India is not lost! Offsets doesn't mean they are donating us the money, they are investing in field where they can profit as well. I gave the example of the new Thales and Samtel JV earlier, where Samtel will produce Topsight and TopOwl HMS, or even FSO and displays, but the low cost production of these parts, compared to do the same in France will obviously benefit the French in further exports. The advantage for India lies in the higher participation, where we can learn and improve us, which could lead to future co-developments.

No matter what, the wining manufacturer will benefit a lot from this deal, even if they don't add development costs on the initial procurement cost of the fighter. That's why EF is also offering us the partnership, which also means no development costs in return, but we have to invest in the EF upgrades in return. The small loss they take for not getting a payback in this field, is countered by the high profit they make with the systemprice and the additional costs over the lifecycle (in EFs case also for upgrading the fighter).


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## sancho

Besides that, there is always confusion about EADS and the EF consortium as a whole and the shares and relation in EADS itself and I found a very informative post on BR regarding this and think it's worth posting it here as well:



> Dear all,
> 
> I've been reading BR for a few years. I'm working on financial markets in a big european bank and i'm in charge of a portefolio of defence assets. I just want to clarify some points regarding shareholding and relations between EADS, Dassault, MBDA etc...
> 
> First of all, we must keep in mind that EADS is not a classical company. *The French States holds* (via Lagardère and Sogeade) *a little bit more than 22.45% of the whole group and is consider as the most influent shareholder of EADS*. But the french state has nothing to do with Eurofighter GMBH.
> 
> *EADS France is controled by french state *(via by-laws of EADS NV - The choice of the "NV" Dutch corporate law for the holding has been made to allow independants affiliates). *EADS France holds 46.32% of Dassault and 37.5% of MBDA*. The rest of EADS has nothing to do with Dassault and MBDA (MBDA is mainly a French-UK company with half of its activity in France).
> 
> *The Shareholding of Eurofighter GMBH is : 13% for EADS CASA (Spain) and 33% for EADS Deutschland (germany not Dutchland), the rest is 21% for Alenia Aeronautica and 33% and for BAE Systems. For example, Airbus or Eurocopter can not be part of Eurofighter offsets proposals (french veto).*
> 
> Regarding the evolutions to come : the french defense landscape will change (merger Safran-Thales-DCNS, under the control of French State and Dassault). BAE is negociating a place in the futur big structure to come. The brits don't want to work anymore with EADS and the Germans, they now want to put in place bilateral programms (mainly BAE-Dassault with Thales). That's the big change to come in Europe. A merger between EADS and Dassault has never been a option since France and UK don't trust EADS anymore on military issues.
> 
> Finally, regarding financial figures there is a confusion above... The 2010 annual net results are :
> 
> Dassault Aviation : + 0.395 billion Euros
> Safran : + 0.207 billion Euros
> EADS : + 0.553 billion Euros
> BAE : -0.242 billion GBP
> Thales : -0.107 billion Euros
> 
> BAE has a huge turnover but very poor margins and Dassault has a very small turnover but very good margins... Thales is not very well, that's why they should merge with Safran (and maybe Zodiac Aerospace). To be complete we should take into account the debt of each player and its capacity to deal with this debt but this is a hard work... I just wanted you to be very carefull with financial figures.
> 
> Regards



Credits to kelesis


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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> Let me explain it differently...
> 
> The UK paid money for the development of the EF and to buy a certain number of fighters. To get profit out of exports and some of the development costs in return, they need to export the EF, but that have to be completely new orders!
> The RAF are selling 2nd hand fighters, which as I pointed out are too costly to upgrade, that's why they rather sell them with a calculated loss. But the RAF has also the T3 orders, which they didn't wanted and was forced by Germany to get at least the T3A orders, but there are still the follow orders and if they cancell it, they have to pay penalities. The only way to not pay this, is to divert these orders to export customers, which means that they can buy new EFs, for the costs that the RAF normally would pay, which does not include development costs, because they were paid before.
> So the UK can reduce their loss by not paying penalities, by selling these fighters to Oman for example, but will not get any of the development costs back.
> Sweden btw is doing the same! They ordered many Gripens initially, but bugdet cuts forced them to get rid of some, that's why they leased them to other countries, or why they offered us, or now Bulgaria fighters from their own order as a low cost fast to induct deal.
> Germany has ordered the 53 x A400Ms, but new budget cuts force them to reduce the number, but again, cancelling them means paying penalities, that's why they didn't to it and already decided to sell 13 of them to other countries for lower costs and it's likely they they do the same with their T3B orders.
> These are just ways to reduce the loss, but doesn't make any profit and they don't get any development costs back!
> 
> 
> Of course not, because just like you said, that's the calculation based "only" on the flyaway cost, but Dassault and the other companies that are selling Rafale with the system costs, which includes training, spares, toolings...
> From Brazil again, Rafale is rated at around $140 millions systemcost (after the flyaway cost was reduced from to around $80 millions) x 126 = $17.64 billions. Even if you cut 35% for offsets offsets, that's a profit of nearly $11.5 billions with a single deal, not to mention that it will increase through further spare, weapon and upgrade deals over the lifecycle.
> 
> As I meantioned earlier, the deal is expected to cost more than $35 billion at the end and that were the speculations before the shortlisting. Not to forget that the money they invest in India is not lost! Offsets doesn't mean they are donating us the money, they are investing in field where they can profit as well. I gave the example of the new Thales and Samtel JV earlier, where Samtel will produce Topsight and TopOwl HMS, or even FSO and displays, but the low cost production of these parts, compared to do the same in France will obviously benefit the French in further exports. The advantage for India lies in the higher participation, where we can learn and improve us, which could lead to future co-developments.
> 
> No matter what, the wining manufacturer will benefit a lot from this deal, even if they don't add development costs on the initial procurement cost of the fighter. That's why EF is also offering us the partnership, which also means no development costs in return, but we have to invest in the EF upgrades in return. The small loss they take for not getting a payback in this field, is countered by the high profit they make with the systemprice and the additional costs over the lifecycle (in EFs case also for upgrading the fighter).


 
First there are two things.. First one for (e.g.) EADS sells EFT like (Total developmentcost+ noofplanestoproduced*planecost)/noofplanestoproduced say = $140million... which means countries like UK,Germany etc... will pay so much for each plane.. while they had paid upfront so much of money.. the remaining gap they will give to acquire the fighters... so UK, Germany etc got the plane ... with no development cost recovered .. Yes to recover this they have to sell there product to recover the budget.. so they will sell $140 million to others like India and others.. to recover it... while EADS will have got the money and sold it...
Coming to RAF/Germany exporting.. They purchased the product and are selling to others.. so EADS got the money with development cost.. Now Germany/RAF are selling back on lower cost.. so the product exist.. but the money Germany/RAF will be spending on training, spares and MLU on long term is saved.. Money saved is profit for them which means there is no budget needed for it.. so it is a win-win situation.. they are not paying penalty at the same time they are not on total loss on long therm the development cost is recovered.. yes EADS is on loss because the sale prospect is hampered but yes it can live with it.....


Second now coming to your logic on Dassault... Now you say Dassault itself giving on less price say $80 million a piece without development cost.. now they sold it to India.. so France which has spent on development cost how will it recover? because the cost of the Figther was $120 million to france and it is $80 million to India.. can you see the gap i am explaining? Which means France will loose the taxpayers money over $20 billion which is more that MMRCA amount.. thats why i said Dassault will add the development cost to MMRCA or the fighter cost includes the development cost..

On offset ... I dont think they gain anything otherwise why will they argue with MoD saying that 50% is too tough?.. They give technology to India by spending there money.. They gain money only with HAL.. because they will give HAL with less price and with hold the profit with them..


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## marcos98

> UAE May Buy 60 More F-16s
> By PIERRE TRAN
> Published: 6 Jul 2011 13:17
> 
> PARIS - The United Arab Emirates (UAE) is now talking with Lockheed Martin about buying more F-16 fighter aircraft because France's offer of an advanced version of the Rafale combat jet is seen as too expensive, said a source familiar with the negotiations in the gulf.
> 
> *"The UAE is finding the Rafale offer to be too costly compared to the capabilities of aircraft and other technologies on the market," the source said. "The negotiations with France are still ongoing and both sides are looking for a compromise."*


UAE May Buy More F-16s - Defense News
Not directly related , but still.......

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## sancho

Again mate, EADS is not selling the EF, it's the EF consortium in which EADS is just a part!



kingdurgaking said:


> Coming to RAF/Germany exporting.. They purchased the product and are selling to others.. so EADS got the money with development cost.. Now Germany/RAF are selling back on lower cost.. so the product exist.. but the money Germany/RAF will be spending on training, spares and MLU on long term is saved.. Money saved is profit for them which means there is no budget needed for it.. so it is a win-win situation.. they are not paying penalty at the same time they are not on total loss on long therm the development cost is recovered.. yes EADS is on loss because the sale prospect is hampered but yes it can live with it.....



They got development costs from the partner countries, but not from the export countries and we are talking about the partner countries getting the development costs back aren't we? 

The EF consortium can't add development costs on the sale of new EFs, when they are not ordered from them, but directly from UK, or Germany. So all the T3B orders that might end up in other countries does not bring any development costs back and the only export countries that paid at least some development costs so far (Austria bought only a few new fighters, most are from Germany) is Saudi Arabia. That shows again that the manufacturers do agree to a calculated loss, if they can benefit in the long run! 
If Germany and UK cancells the T3 orders, they just have the loss of the penalities, but the EF consortium have a loss of the next 30 to 40 years lifecycle and they can't simply live with that like you said. So selling these fighters without adding development costs to Oman, or Rumania, might not give the development costs back, but will keep the production line open for some more years and let the companies profit over the lifecycle of the fighters again!
Also don't forget, that the increased sales for their companies, means also increased taxes for the countries as well, be it the deal for the fighters, or the weapons, spares, future upgrades, all points where the country benefits from additional sales, no matter with, or without added development costs. 





kingdurgaking said:


> On offset ... I dont think they gain anything otherwise why will they argue with MoD saying that 50% is too tough?..



Because our industry is not at a level that they could take over that much offsets, or absorb that much ToT now. They of course have an interests not to share too much of their techs, or production secrets, while we need it to get better. But any of those companies would outsource certain parts of their R&D, or production to India, as long as it will remain under their control. Take Boeing for example, they already produce minor parts of the F18SH airframe at HAL, because of the lower costs and still they highly doubt that HAL would be able to take over much more of the production. 




marcos98 said:


> UAE May Buy More F-16s - Defense News
> Not directly related , but still.......


 
That's just tactics to put pressure on France to reduce the costs, same fake news was spread by the media with UAE negotiating F18SH. There are 2 key points that the US can't offer, once the resale of Mirage 2000-9 fighters and more importantly from their point of view, to integrate Black Shaheen cruise missiles to the US fighters. The UAE might buy more F16 Block 60s, but will remain with the Mirage for the deep strike role, or replace them with Rafale. The only other and imo even better option would be the Eurofighter, because it should be able to use the same missiles with CFTs and would be the better hi / low combo with the F16.


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## SpArK

*US not pressuring India to reopen the fighter jet bid: Blake​*
Washington, July 8 (PTI) The US is not "pressuring" India to reopen the bid for the multi-billion bid for fighter jets, but would welcome any such move if New Delhi decides to do so for its own reasons, a top official said today.

"We are not pressuring Indian Government in any way to try to reopen the bid," Assistant Secretary of State for South and Central Asia, told reporters during a web-chat hosted by the State Department ahead of the India-US Strategic Dialogue later this month.

"Certainly for their own reason, if they decided that they need to reopen the bid, we will certainly welcome that opportunity and our companies would welcome that opportunity," Blake said.

The United States had expressed its disappointment after India decided to exclude two US companies &#65533; Lockheed Martin and Boeing &#65533; from its multi-billion bidding process of its 100 plus fighter jets purchasing process.

"We look forward to with great interest other opportunities that will exist in the Indian defence market over the next several years -- USD 30 billion.

American companies are keenly interested in expanding their cooperation with India counterpart &#65533; co-development, co-production type of activities.

This I think, will be an exciting area of co-operation," Blake said.

Responding to questions, Blake said the US is not concerned in lagging behind countries like France and Russia to get bids for nuclear power plants in India.

"We do not have any concerns about losing out to the French and the Russians. We think there are quite important opportunities for American companies still," he said in response to a question. 

US not pressuring India to reopen the fighter jet bid: Blake -  International News


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## angeldemon_007

Liam Fox promotes Typhoon in India - Defence Management


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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> Again mate, EADS is not selling the EF, it's the EF consortium in which EADS is just a part!
> 
> They got development costs from the partner countries, but not from the export countries and we are talking about the partner countries getting the development costs back aren't we?
> 
> The EF consortium can't add development costs on the sale of new EFs, when they are not ordered from them, but directly from UK, or Germany. So all the T3B orders that might end up in other countries does not bring any development costs back and the only export countries that paid at least some development costs so far (Austria bought only a few new fighters, most are from Germany) is Saudi Arabia. That shows again that the manufacturers do agree to a calculated loss, if they can benefit in the long run!
> If Germany and UK cancells the T3 orders, they just have the loss of the penalities, but the EF consortium have a loss of the next 30 to 40 years lifecycle and they can't simply live with that like you said. So selling these fighters without adding development costs to Oman, or Rumania, might not give the development costs back, but will keep the production line open for some more years and let the companies profit over the lifecycle of the fighters again!
> Also don't forget, that the increased sales for their companies, means also increased taxes for the countries as well, be it the deal for the fighters, or the weapons, spares, future upgrades, all points where the country benefits from additional sales, no matter with, or without added development costs.


 
To make it clear.. what is the cost of the Fighter plane ?... As far as open source is concerned.. it is (development cost+manufacturing cost)/CAP order.....
so if the European members get the EFT for $140 million ... it will be the above cost... further they would have seeded money initially to build the project... so then at the end they will pay the remaining gap to get there aircraft.. agreed to this point they don't get any development cost back.. because they are getting the fighter planes.. till this place both the consortium and Dassault are playing equal... i was initially wrong to say the cost to the development partners will not include development cost.. but it does include... i felt it wrong because i forgot about the seed money they gave it to the consortium

Now coming to selling to India.. you are telling Dassault are giving less compared to what they sold to french air force... how is this possible?.. this is what i am talking about.. France will have a loss isnt it?.. because they have planted seeded the money and they should expect the returns... 
Secondly the basic for exporting to others is to gain money which will include the development cost.. how is it possible to say that they will export less compared to the partner companies??... There is no way it happens.... As you said selling them to Oman will be a loss to EADS because it was sold from the partner countries because the sale prospect is hampered .. but the partner countries already paid for the cost.. but the partner countries paying less to Oman... will be a loss to the current fiscal year to the country but on long term that is going to be on profit because they have saved lot of money in subsequent fiscal years... On the other had if EADS/Dassault sells they will sell it with the same cost they sold it to their countries or even more.. 

For T3B if EADS invest the money or the partner countries seed it.. the plane will come with the development cost to India that is the splitted cost... this is the same thing with Dassault... if Dassault sells less to IAF compared to Army of the air... it is France that is eating the loss.. because there is no returns... either way this is not feasible


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## SpArK

*COLUMN: MMRCA, The Right Choice For The Wrong Reasons​*




By Admiral Arun Prakash

Media reports that the Ministry of Defence (MoD) has asked two of the six aspirants for the ongoing Medium Multi-role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) competition to extend the validity of their quotes would seem a clear indication that these two; *the French Dassault Rafale and the Eurofighter Consortium&#8217;s Typhoon II &#8211; both of European provenance &#8211; have overhauled their rivals, to reach the finals.* This development coupled with US Ambassador Roemer&#8217;s recent resignation, related or not, is likely to cast a pall of gloom, at least temporarily, over Indo-American relations.

These are lean times, world-wide, and bagging this huge contract will have a positive impact on the relatively small economies of the European nations involved. Conversely, the loss of business worth $11 billion (running into many times this figure on account of product-support extending over the full 30-35 year life-span of the aircraft) would come as a blow to the aerospace industry of even a major economic power like the USA.

More than anything else, it could be interpreted as a rebuff to the sustained efforts of three successive US Presidents who have gone out of their way to bring about unprecedented warmth and proximity in Indo-US relations. *There is a view that awarding the MMRCA contract to one of the two US contenders, the F-16 Super Viper or the F/A-18 Super Hornet, would have been an appropriate quid pro quo; a suitable expression of gratitude, ensuring strategic convergence between the two nations. Such a buy would have brought the respective industries and armed forces into much closer engagement, and possibly gained entry for the IAF into the world-wide US military logistics loop.*

However this may merely be a simplistic view, *because the affairs of State are guided by diverse weighty considerations, and things are not always as they appear to the man on the street.*


*The Good News and the Bad
*
On the other hand, let us look at the positives.

*The IAF is now guaranteed a versatile, highly-agile and potent - albeit expensive - fourth generation combat aircraft in its inventory which can dominate the regional skies for the foreseeable future. Having flown both the F/A-18 and the Rafale, I can say that while the former would certainly have met all the IAF requirements competently and economically, the breathtaking performance of the latter leaves one in no doubt that it is a &#8220;generation-next&#8221; machine.* The Eurofighter Typhoon, by all accounts, is equally impressive.

The complex and elaborate selection process involving field trials for six competitors in diverse locations in a compressed time-frame seems to have been pursued without a hitch by the IAF. Short-listing of the contenders has been undertaken meticulously, by the rules of the game, framed under the Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP). Given the dismal track-record of delays in earlier projects, if the MMRCA contract is signed by year-end, the MoD would have broken some Indian records for &#8220;quick&#8221; decision-making. To crown it all, there has &#8211; so far &#8211; not been a whiff of scandal that one has come to expect from contracts of such magnitude.

By itself, the MMRCA decision is not a matter of huge significance; and we can safely assume that our thoroughly professional air force has chosen a combat aircraft that will capably discharge the multiple tasks of defending Indian airspace, conducting strikes inside enemy territory and providing aerial cover to ground and maritime forces for the next four decades or so. Furthermore, Indo-US relations will weather this minor turbulence, and soon resume an even-keel.

However, in the midst of breathless speculation and gossip relating to the MMRCA contract, we are likely to miss the forest for the trees. What we really need to worry about is a deeper malaise in India&#8217;s national security framework which has been starkly highlighted by the unfolding of the decade-long MMRCA saga. This is an opportune moment to reflect on the flawed processes and procedures that India follows in the critical areas of force planning and weapon system acquisition.

There are two deeply disturbing aspects here. Firstly; India&#8217;s huge defence expenditure, which represents a significant proportion of the central budget, is spent with cavalier abandon and fails to accrue proportionate benefits for national security. And secondly, into its 64th year of independence, and having become a trillion-dollar economy, India remains abjectly dependent on foreign sources for its security needs. And yet nobody seems to be bothered.

*India&#8217;s Blinkered Vision
*

Most major powers undertake periodic Strategic Defence Reviews or issue defence White Papers which clearly highlight national interests, identify vital goals and objectives, and undertake an evaluation of the security environment. A deliberate exercise of this nature helps visualize the kind of armed forces the country needs, and pinpoints the specific capabilities they must field.

India, for all its fiscal constraints and competing demands on scarce resources, is one of the few countries which neither undertakes such introspection, nor generates security doctrines. In such a vacuum the Services tend to produce equipment wish-lists which focus on numbers (one for one replacement) rather than technologies or capabilities. Such demands take little or no account of force-multiplication, jointness, or duplication.

Moreover, such is the nature of the Chiefs of Staff Committee (COSC) system that a determined Service Chief can demand hardware for his Service by invoking the mantra of dire &#8220;operational necessity&#8221;. No provision exists, in the current dispensation, for the three Chiefs, the generalist bureaucracy or the Raksha Mantri (RM) to engage in a doctrinal discussion relating to the operational need of a requisitioned weapon-system, and the priority that must be accorded to it. After many instances of internecine sniping, an unwritten understanding has emerged in the COSC that, no Service will comment on another&#8217;s plans in the interests of harmony.

The MoD has neither the expertise nor the inclination to call for professional studies regarding national security issues. Therefore no critical examination or cost-benefit analysis has ever been undertaken on (for example) the continuing future relevance of weapon-systems such as battle-tanks, aircraft-carriers or short-range ballistic missiles in the Indian context, or the impact of an anti-ballistic missile defence system on deterrence stability. In such a scenario all wish-lists from the Services (and DRDO) become sacrosanct and, eventually, receive MoD approval.

*The IAF Inventory
*

It is against this background that the IAF force-planning process, in general, and the MMRCA case in particular need to be examined, on the basis of information available in the public domain (IISS &#8220;Military Balance&#8221; 2010 edition). I must emphasise that the MMRCA case is being used only because it happens to be a current issue. This critique may also hold good for the acquisition programmes of the other two Services.

*The mainstay of the IAF inventory, at its lower end, continues to be the vintage force of about 200 MiG-21 interceptors. Of these more than half have been upgraded to the Bison standard, encompassing a ground-attack capability. At the top end of the inventory are 140 Sukhoi-30 MKI air-dominance fighters which also have a significant strike capability. Additional Su-30s have been contracted and their eventual number will reach 272. Dedicated to the ground-attack role are 100 MiG-27 ML and 110 deep-strike Jaguar aircraft. Fifty Mirage-2000 multi-role fighters and 70 MiG-29 air-superiority fighters are available for combat tasks as required. The Jaguar, Mirage-2000 and the MiG-29 are all awaiting upgrades which will give them enhanced capabilities and extended life. This assorted force of about 650-700 combat aircraft is supported by air-air refuelling (AAR) and airborne warning and control system (AWACS) squadrons.*

*In addition to these combat aircraft of Russian, British and French origin already in service, the IAF has placed an order for 40 indigenous Tejas combat aircraft, with possibly another 80-100 more to follow. In December 2010 India signed a deal worth $ 300 million with Russia for the &#8220;joint development&#8221; of a 5th generation fighter aircraft. It is understood that about 250 of these aircraft, designated PAK-FA in Russia, will enter IAF service during the next decade. Finally, the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) is reported to have commenced design work on a fifth generation indigenous Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) expected to fly by 2025..*

*Assuming that the MiG-21s are withdrawn by the end of the decade, to be replaced by the Tejas; the MMRCA, when it joins the fleet, will become the 8th type of combat aircraft in IAF service. The increasing diversity of aircraft types (mostly of foreign origin) being accumulated by the IAF is going to become a nightmare in the spheres of training, maintenance, logistics and inventory-management.*

The IAF had decided, in the early years of the last decade that the logical answer to its *problems of obsolescence, attrition and declining strength was to induct additional numbers of the Mirage-2000. With a few upgrades, this excellent machine could become the future multi-role aircraft; bridging the gap between the heavy-weight Su-30 and the light-weight Tejas. It was the MoD&#8217;s rejection of this proposal that gave birth to the MMRCA project.* However, a lack of clarity has prevailed about the specific space that the MMRCA is meant to occupy in the IAF order of battle, given the growing fleet of Su-30s, and the planned induction of the PAK-FA and the AMCA.

In this context, it is interesting to note the contrasting approach of two other medium sized air forces; the British and French. Both are equipped with about 300 combat aircraft, with which they meet operational commitments, not just at home but also world-wide. Their inventories are restricted to two or three types of aircraft: Typhoon and Tornado in the Royal Air Force, and Rafale, Mirage-F1 and Mirage-2000 in the Armee de l&#8217;Air. Versions of these aircraft undertake all combat tasks, including air-defence, ground-attack and strike & recce.

*Foreign Dependence
*

One of the most deeply disturbing aspects of India&#8217;s national security policies is the nonchalance with which the country continues to spend colossal sums of money in acquiring weapon systems from foreign sources. There does not seem to be adequate realization of the fact that every such purchase makes India hostage to the seller nation, and seriously undermines our security as well as autonomy. *For example, if the aircraft-carrier Vikramaditya arrives in 2012, the Indian Navy (IN) will remain captive to the whims and fancies of Russia&#8217;s creaky supply chain till at least 2052 for spares, and maintenance support.*

In similar fashion every foreign aircraft that the IAF acquires, will place the Service at the mercy of another nation for 30-40 years thereafter. The denial of a tiny aircraft component can ground fleets, and we should be in no doubt that our dependence for spares, product-support and weapons on sources as diverse as Russia, UK, France, Israel and South Africa constitutes a crippling strategic vulnerability. We may soon be adding Italy, Spain and Germany to this list.

It is true that no third-world nation can aspire to be completely autarchic in advanced weapon-systems. And yet *China has demonstrated that resolute pursuit of self-reliance can produce wonders. By deploying their scientific resources to &#8220;steal&#8221; technology and resort to reverse-engineering, the Chinese produce everything they need; from AK-47 assault rifles, cruise-missiles and stealth fighters to carriers and nuclear submarines. They also export $ 2 billion worth of arms annually. While it is sometime appropriate to disparage and berate the DRDO for its many delays, failures and false promises, the armed forces need to undertake some soul-searching themselves.* Very often it has been their own their own detached attitude, and penchant for the illusory &#8220;fast-track&#8221; import option that has caused them to bypass any attempt at indigenization, and perpetuate foreign dependence.

Delving a little into history, it is interesting to note that it was at about the same time in the mid-1950s that two significant initiatives were taken towards self-reliance in defence. The IAF issued an Air Staff Requirement for an indigenous jet fighter, and the IN established a Corps of Naval Constructors (later to become Directorate of Naval Design) with the aim of starting indigenous warship production. HAL delivered the first twin-jet HF-24 Marut, designed by Dr. Kurt Tank, to No. 10 Squadron in 1967. Mazagon Docks Mumbai launched the first, licence-built, Leander class frigate, INS Nilgiri in 1968.

The stories diverge thereafter. Having delivered 150 Maruts, HAL doggedly persevered with further development of this elegant looking fighter. The designers, however, lost heart as successive versions like the HF-73, HF-24-M.53 and the single-engine HF-25 had to be shelved for lack of IAF interest and government support. Finally, HAL gave up when the IAF opted for the Jaguar and the Mig-23 BN, and the Marut programme was shut down. The LCA project taken up by DRDO, 30 years after the Marut, did not, till recently, evoke much enthusiasm from the IAF; which accounts for its tardy and halting progress.

On the other hand, Mazagon Docks went on to build four more Leanders before Indian naval architects stepped in to re-design the hull and add weapons and sensors to produce three different classes of warships. Today, the navy&#8217;s perspective plans rely heavily on the regular delivery of frigates, destroyers, amphibious ships and submarines by carefully nurtured Indian shipyards. A nuclear submarine was launched in 2010, and an indigenous aircraft-carrier will follow in 2015.

*Backing Self-reliance
*


It may be somewhat late in the day, but there is still time to ensure that India&#8217;s aerospace industry does not completely miss the technology bus, and leave the nation forever dependent on foreign sources for combat aircraft. The MMRCA contract provides an invaluable window of opportunity, via the Offset Clause.

For far too long, have Indian defence PSUs claimed &#8220;transfer of technology&#8221; when they were only assembling components received from abroad using &#8220;screwdriver technology&#8221;. For the MMRCA offsets to be beneficial to India, they must be selectively chosen to fill known gaps in key technologies or provide high-end production-engineering skills lacking in our aerospace industry today. The USA had conveyed a distinct message that selection of either American candidate would open a cornucopia of technology to India &#8211; including the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter. The Europeans must be reminded of this and prevailed upon to follow a similar paradigm.

*As far as the PAK-FA &#8220;joint development&#8221; contract is concerned, there is need for us to be even more careful because the prototype made its maiden flight early this year at Komsomolsk-on-Amur. The developmental process of this aircraft is, obviously, at least a decade old, and has been guided by the requirements of the Russian Air Force rather than the IAF. Thus, even if the &#8220;joint development&#8221; is no longer possible India must ensure that key technologies in areas such as stealth, super-cruise and active electronically scanned radar are actually transferred to the DRDO in return for the heavy investment made. The Russians are known to be parsimonious with technology transfer, and the pointless licence-production of 850 MiG-21s and aero-engines, as well as many BrahMos missiles is proof of this.*

The IAF, on its part, can reinforce India&#8217;s aero-space self-reliance endeavours by articulating a 25-30 year capability-cum-force-planning vision, if possible, jointly with DRDO. This vision must use the LCA, AMCA and experiences and technologies as the basic building blocks for futuristic combat aircraft &#8211; manned or unmanned. Perhaps the establishment of a small Aero-space Design Cell in Vayu Bhavan may help.

*The Advantage of Numbers
*

The IAF has justly complained, for many years,* that its long-standing requirement of 45 fighter squadrons has never been met. Worse still, even the arbitrary &#8220;authorised" strength of 39.5 squadrons has been steadily eroded by attrition and obsolescence, so that today it is a force of less than 30 squadrons.*

A point repeatedly made by the IAF leadership, in the context of declining force-levels, has been that while technology may have its place, &#8220;numbers have their own logic&#8221;. This is a valid argument for a force required to divide its strength between the western sector facing Pakistan, the north-eastern sector facing China, and the northern sector facing both adversaries. It must also be borne in mind that the Strategic Forces Command does not own any aircraft assets, and relies on dual-tasked IAF machines to be withdrawn for nuclear delivery missions. However the numbers argument has its limitations.

The IAF Hawker Hunter FGA Mk.9 that I flew in the 1970s could deliver a ton&#8217;s worth of rockets and iron bombs out to a little under 200 miles, and weapon accuracies of 15-20 yards were considered reasonable. The Jaguar, inducted in mid-1980s, was a great improvement and could deliver a 4 ton payload to over 300 miles. Today&#8217;s combat aircraft carry 6-8 tons of lethal weaponry to ranges of over 400 miles and deliver them with pinpoint precision on the target. Such is the accuracy and lethality of &#8220;smart&#8221; weapons that a single modern fighter can achieve the same effect in one mission as 15-20 earlier generation aircraft using &#8220;dumb&#8221; weaponry. This was amply demonstrated by the Mirage-2000 on Kargil heights in 1999. The &#8220;multi-role&#8221; appellation represents the ability to switch rapidly between interceptor, strike and recce tasks.

It is a moot question that if numbers are indeed so critical for the IAF, then why have the cheaper MMRCA options been discarded? *Given that all six aircraft seem to have qualified in the flight-trials and technical evaluation processes, the line-up, in ascending order of price, shown in parenthesis, is as follows: MiG-35 ($ 45 m), F-16 ($60 m), F/A-18 ($60.5 m), Gripen ($82.2 m), Rafale ($ 85.5 m) and Typhoon ($124 m). The IAF could have, for example, added 400 Super Hornets to its inventory for the price of 200 Typhoons, and resolved many of its problems.*

From this it becomes obvious that the time has now come for the IAF to undertake an exercise to determine the &#8220;capabilities&#8221; that it needs to discharge its roles and missions rather than insisting on a fixed number of squadrons. At between Rs. 350-550 crores per aircraft it would be unrealistic to demand the numbers contemplated in the 1960s; especially when technology opens up so many operational vistas.

*Integrating the Expertise
*

There is no doubt that the General, Naval and Air Staffs at the three Service Headquarters embody in themselves the highest levels of field experience, domain knowledge and professional expertise. However, rhetoric apart, future wars are not going to be fought or won by a single Service. Whether we like it or not, concepts like &#8220;sea control&#8221; as well as &#8220;air dominance&#8221; are mere preliminaries for &#8220;boots on the ground&#8221;. It was for this reason that the post-Kargil Group of Ministers convened to &#8220;Reform the National Security System&#8221; recommended, in 2001, the creation of an Integrated Defence Staff to support the Chief of Defence Staff (CDS).

The CDS was to constitute the &#8220;single point of military advice to the Government&#8221;, and apart from administering the Strategic Forces Command (SFC), his two main functions, as Chairman COSC, were to be:
To enhance efficiency and effectiveness of the force planning process through intra and inter-Service prioritisation.
To ensure the enhancement of capabilities by engendering Jointness, demanded by modern warfare, in the armed forces.
A combination of bureaucratic resistance and political indecision bolstered by scare-mongering from within a section of the armed forces, unfortunately, stalled the institution of a CDS. An IDS HQ was, however, created and has been functioning under a 3-star Chief of Integrated Staff to Chairman COSC (CISC for short) since 2001.

The Integrated Defence Staff (IDS) with a large number of 2 and 3-star officers from the army, navy and air force could have become a most valuable pool of inter-Service expertise. It could play a crucial role in rendering advice to the RM on all issues relating to capability creation, force planning and inter-Service prioritisation of acquisitions. However, in the absence of a CDS, the functioning of the CISC, understandably, remains constrained by the Chiefs, and the IDS HQ remains an under-utilised formation.

*Fixing the System
*
In the current system of India&#8217;s higher defence management the Chiefs feel that the acute scrutiny of their respective Services will not permit any down-sizing or right-sizing, especially if it means disbanding units or losing high-ranking billets. No significant reform, or move towards Jointmanship is, therefore, likely to take place unless imposed by the political leadership &#8211; as has happened in other democracies like the USA and UK.

With China bearing down hard on us, and Pakistan ready to descend into chaos, India&#8217;s external security scenario is fraught with hazard. Internally, the Indian state, which has been struggling to cope with Naxalism and terrorism, is now confronted with a restless civil society seeking relief from all-pervasive corruption and administrative ineptitude. National security is, therefore, in parlous straits.

The political leadership in India has overwhelming political preoccupations which obviate focused attention on national security issues. The bureaucracy is only too happy to step-in wherever it can, but does not know enough about operational issues to make drastic interventions. Under these circumstances, there is a strong element of tunnel-vision and ad-hocism in our defence planning and expenditure; dictated by the compulsions of individual Service HQs. Consequently, our colossal defence expenditure of $ 35 billion (and growing), does not contribute effectively to national security, and some urgent re-engineering is called for.

At the conclusion of this, somewhat lengthy essay I have, regrettably, no &#8220;silver bullet&#8221; to offer. However the national security establishment needs to pay urgent heed to four salient recommendations:

Create a source of advice which is not merely &#8220;single point&#8221; but conveys a non-parochial, inter-Service view of issues for the RM&#8217;s consideration. This source can be designated the &#8220;Permanent Chairman COSC&#8221; (or PCC) rather than CDS. The PCC will have no forces to command, but will administer the SFC and Andaman & Nicobar Command. His advice to the RM will be a distillate of the combined wisdom of the COSC, tempered by the counsel of the CISC and IDS HQ staff who represent all three Services.


Progressively integrate the IDS HQ and the MoD, so that the uniformed and civilian staffs work in harmony rather than as adversaries. This will enhance efficiency, cut down processing times for acquisition cases, and ensure that the defence budget is fully utilized.



Give utmost priority to attaining self-reliance in weapon system acquisition. This will require radical reforms in the structure and management of the DRDO and defence PSUs. It will also call for much closer integration of the DRDO with the IDS HQ, so that a meaningful and time-bound programme for attaining self-sufficiency in key defence technologies can be pursued even at this late stage.
Management of the DRDO budget should be placed under a board which has the three Service Chiefs as members. All defence R&D projects should be subjected to periodic user reviews for a decision on their continued relevance and viability.


Returning to the MMRCA issue as a post-script; no matter which aircraft eventually emerges as the winner in the competition, there can be only one litmus test for the decision. Has this choice been made for the right reasons, and does it serve India&#8217;s vital national interests? As a corollary one might also ask: how much longer must India remain dependent on foreign sources for security?

(A naval fighter pilot, Admiral Arun Prakash PVSM AVSM VrC VSM served as India's Chief of the Naval Staff from 31 July 2004-31 Oct 2006. As Chairman of the National Maritime Foundation (NMF), he currently divides his time between Goa and Delhi. This column is copyright and courtesy VAYU Aerospace & Defence Review (III/2011), at which the Admiral is Editorial Advisor. He contributes columns to journals, magazines, newspapers and, occasionally, to LiveFist)


Livefist: COLUMN: MMRCA, The Right Choice For The Wrong Reasons

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## sancho

SpArK said:


> *COLUMN: MMRCA, The Right Choice For The Wrong Reasons​*...


 
A very interesting article, although I have some doubts about the price he quotes because he seems to mixed up some flyway and system costs. However, here is a pic of the admiral and his Rafale flight back then (although some sources said, that he has flown a Rafale M F1, which is not the one in the background) :

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## marcos98

Lybia, Rafale takes off from Malta:


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## rockstarIN

I want all those dedicated attack air crafts to be withdrawn ASAP and replaced with MMRCA/LCA


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## SpArK

*Brazil confirms the multibillion fighter jet deal postponed until early 2012​*







&#8220;We will go to examine it into the beginning of next year. At the moment, we are only focused on the domestic agenda,&#8221; Jobim said on the sidelines of a business forum in southern France.



Brazil, which wants to rebuild and expand its dilapidated fleet of air force jets, has been considering *offers from France's Dassault Aviation, Boeing and Sweden's Saab* .The Brazilian contract will likely be worth much more than the initial bids, which have been reported by Brazilian media at about 4 to 6 billion US dollars. Maintenance contracts will be lucrative, and Brazil could eventually buy more than 100 aircraft.


Aside from the price and tactical considerations of Dassault's Rafale, Boeing's F-18 and Saab's Griffon, Brazil demands a technology transfer to help create jobs by manufacturing modern fighters at home and potentially exporting them to neighbours in Latin America.

&#8220;The principal necessity is on technology transfer,&#8221; said Jobim, who declined to say which of the three offers Brazil was leaning towards.


*Dassault's Rafale had appeared close to clinching its first foreign deal with ex Brazilian President Lula da Silva, who had said he preferred the French plane over its rivals*.

*But Lula da Silva's successor, Dilma Rousseff, appears to be leaning towards Boeing's F-18 after saying she wanted to rethink all the finalists' bids. Since taking office in January, Rousseff has pursued stronger political ties with the United States.*

Brazil confirms the multibillion fighter jet deal postponed until early 2012 &mdash; MercoPress


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## DacterSaab

SpArK said:


> *COLUMN: MMRCA, The Right Choice For The Wrong Reasons​*



The author of the article seems highly biased towards Americans. The Americans were not willing to offer 100% dissolution of technology (as we've seen in the case of MKI now HAL has *100% indeginous MKIs*). Next the Americans wanted us to sign 2 agreements without which they couldn't transfer us sensitive technology like Radar,etc. but if we signed it then they could inspect our planes anyday, anytime and anywhere and also put restrictions on when, where, how the planes can be used or not (remember the ship *ex-trenton what good is a warship that can't be used in war* imagine same condition on IAF jets). Again they were raising doubts on the capability of Indian Industry to manufacture their *'Oh so sensitive equipment' * (in short they wanted to manufacture as much/many of the planes in USA as possible something we surely didn't want). 
The author says we for the cost of 200 typhoons we could fly 400 Super Hornets going by the same logic we could buy 600 Mig-35s, now i know a lot of us don't like the Russian spare troubles but u tell them u wanna buy 600 Mig-35s they'll close a Mig plant in Russia and open 1 over here and why forget MKI is also Russian and IAF has no spare trouble I think the Malaysians are having trouble but their fleet is a lot smaller than ours.
I also refuse to believe that the Super Hornet can outperform Mig-35 in Kinematic Performance infact if the Russians upgraded engines, radar and 3d TVCs are successfully integrated the Mig-35 may give even the Eurocarnards a run for their money. 
Plz do not consider me biased towards the Russians I've always wanted the Rafale to win but all those people who keep saying buy American jets without even understanding that *U can't fly them during Wars* really bother me.
As for Russian bashing if they give 100% dissolution of technology then i don't think u'r still dependent on their troublesome spare supply. The Russians do lack in avionics but we make up thanks to our good friends the Israelis and the French (just like Russians they have proven that their friendship can stand the test of time, just like Russians they have trouble keeping deadlines, just like Russians their greedy B*****ds but so are we all).
Coming to the current status of MMRCA Which would be the better machine from a strategic point of view? The EFT nations hold a higher combined military strength than France but their dependability is questionable while the French have proven they would not hamper our national defense by thier stupid little whims


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## rockstarIN

SpArK said:


> *Brazil confirms the multibillion fighter jet deal postponed until early 2012​*


 
They are waiting for MMRCA deal to be finalized for sure.


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## Jon Snow

DacterSaab said:


> The author of the article seems highly biased towards Americans. The Americans were not willing to offer 100% dissolution of technology (as we've seen in the case of MKI now HAL has 100% indeginous MKIs). Next the Americans wanted us to sign 2 agreements without which they couldn't transfer us sensitive technology like Radar,etc. but if we signed it then they could inspect our planes anyday, anytime and anywhere and also put restrictions on when, where, how the planes can be used or not (remember the ship ex-trenton what good is a warship that can't be used in war imagine same condition on IAF jets). Again they were raising doubts on the capability of Indian Industry to manufacture their 'Oh so sensitive equipment' (in short they wanted to manufacture as much/many of the planes in USA as possible something we surely didn't want).
> The author says we for the cost of 200 typhoons we could fly 400 Super Hornets going by the same logic we could buy 600 Mig-35s, now i know a lot of us don't like the Russian spare troubles but u tell them u wanna buy 600 Mig-35s they'll close a Mig plant in Russia and open 1 over here and why forget *MKI is also Russian and IAF has no spare trouble* I think the Malaysians are having trouble but their fleet is a lot smaller than ours.
> I also refuse to believe that the Super Hornet can outperform Mig-35 in Kinematic Performance infact if the Russians upgraded engines, radar and 3d TVCs are successfully integrated the Mig-35 may give even the Eurocarnards a run for their money.
> Plz do not consider me biased towards the Russians I've always wanted the Rafale to win but all those people who keep saying buy American jets without even understanding that U can't fly them during Wars really bother me.
> As for Russian bashing if they give 100% dissolution of technology then i don't think u'r still dependent on their troublesome spare supply. The Russians do lack in avionics but we make up thanks to our good friends the Israelis and the French (just like Russians they have proven that their friendship can stand the test of time, just like Russians they have trouble keeping deadlines, just like Russians their greedy B*****ds but so are we all).
> Coming to the current status of MMRCA Which would be the better machine from a strategic point of view? The EFT nations hold a higher combined military strength than France but their dependability is questionable while the French have proven they would not hamper our national defense by thier stupid little whims


 
the mki does have spares problem
www.outlookindia.com |
there was a statement made by sukhoi some time back that they will guarantee spares for the mki but i dont know how that's panned out.... russians are trying hard to get the spares issue sorted - i think we might soon see a deal which will allow india to produce spares when russia cannot supply them

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## Vibs

Jon Snow said:


> the mki does have spares problem
> www.outlookindia.com |
> there was a statement made by sukhoi some time back that they will guarantee spares for the mki but i dont know how that's panned out.... russians are trying hard to get the spares issue sorted - i think we might soon see a deal which will allow india to produce spares when russia cannot supply them


 
Well, there were reports and claims that India was going for complete indegenization of the MKI. Also manufacturing of future versions is to be shifted to a HAL facility. I suppose that solves the spares problems. I seriously doubt the US would have allowed that.


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## RPK

IAF to brief Lockheed Martin

IAF to brief Lockheed Martin - Brahmand.com

IAF Lockheed Martin MMRCA 
Posted On: Jul 12, 2011
print this news Buzz it share this news on facebook
NEW DELHI (PTI): Lockheed Martin, one of the two US companies which lost out in the bid for the 126 combat aircraft deal, is expected to be conveyed the reasons for it by the Indian Air Force (IAF).

The IAF is expected to brief Lockheed Martin Tuesday in detail about the reasons of their exclusion for which the request is understood to have been made by the US government, defence sources told PTI here.

The two aircraft were offered to the IAF through the Foreign Military Sales route in which the supplier of military hardware is the US government itself.

In April, India had shortlisted Dassault and Eurofighter for 126 Medium-Multirole Combat Aircraft (M-MRCA) deal and excluded the two American companies along with Russian MiG Corporation and Swedish Saab Gripen.

After receiving communication in this regard, the US had said it was "deeply disappointed" over the rejection and Boeing had also sought a debrief from the IAF.

The IAF had said it had tested the six participating aircraft extensively on 643 parameters and all of them were told about their performance in the field trials as the process moved forward.


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## sancho

> *Libya, Rafale to operate from Sigonella Air Base*
> 
> Air&Cosmos reveals that 5 Rafale (4 B and 1 C) has been transfered, last weekend, from the Solenzara Air Base (Corsica, France) to Sigonella Air Base (Sicilia, Italy).
> The Italian AB is at about 550 km from Tripoli compared to 1080 km for Solenzara. This should save about 1 hour of transit for each sortie.
> According to Air&Cosmos those Rafale will mainly conduct Recce missions. Data receiving stations dedicated to the Reco-NG pod have also been installed at Sigonella.



Rafale News: Libya, Rafale to operate from Sigonella Air Base





> *Kuwait, Rafale deal is an option, French ambassador said*
> 
> Monday 11th 2011, the French Ambassador to Kuwait, Nada Yafi, said that the Rafale deal is not finalized yet :
> 
> [...]"Kuwait wants to assess the group of fighter jets and it has not yet finished, but the evaluation of Rafale seemed satisfactory in all aspects especially from the experts side," she said, asserting that it is Kuwait's right to other jets too...



Rafale News: Kuwait, Rafale deal is an option, French ambassador said


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## Dash

Hi All -

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/dae/articles/communiques/FighterCostFinalJuly06.pdf

A good read on fighter aircraft prices. Hope this is helpful.


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## sancho

Dash said:


> Hi All -
> 
> http://www.defense-aerospace.com/dae/articles/communiques/FighterCostFinalJuly06.pdf
> 
> A good read on fighter aircraft prices. Hope this is helpful.


 
Was posted here before and to be honest, how reliable can this report be if it compares the price of fighters, with hamburgers?


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## houshanghai

Rafale French specific programs 

http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/3qYA24XMZek/

http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/hCy4V-uQqXg/


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## zombieland

People, I have a very very strong feeling that with your Mirage upgrade coming true ... Eurofighter will get the nod for this MMRCA ... call this my instint or gut feel ... this is the reason your babus okayed the mirage deal .... ;-)


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## SpArK

> The fourth batch of Boeing-made fighters,* worth over 175 million AU dollars,* landed at the Royal Australian Air Force Base Amberley in Queensland.
> 
> Minister for Defence Materiel, Jason Clare, while welcoming the new planes said, &#8220;The Super Hornet gives the Royal Australian Air Force the capability to conduct air-to-air combat; to strike targets on land and at sea; to suppress enemy air defences; and to conduct reconnaissance.&#8221;
> 
> The fighters have been delivered on budget and ahead of schedule because of the teamwork of the manufacturer Boeing, the US Navy, the Royal Australian Air Force and the Defence Materiel Organisation, the minister said.
> 
> The Australian Government had signed a *$6 billion deal with the US in 2007 to acquire 24 F/A-18F Super Hornets*.



Australia receives three new Super Hornets - Brahmand.com


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## Abingdonboy

SpArK said:


> Australia receives three new Super Hornets - Brahmand.com


 
Jesus Christ!! Forgive my language but, FCUK! That's $250,000,000 USD *PER PLANE! * I know that this must include setting up infrastructure , training, weapons etc but all these were included in the $10 BN IAF MMRCA deal that was to demand 126 fighters! So what happened with Australia? 


And some people complain at the price of UPG of M2k- in this case it looks like IAF got of lightly!!



+ btw at this price the MMRCA (for 126 fighters) would cost GoI $*31,500,000,000*!!!

Good old!


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## angeldemon_007

Talks over £7.2billion BAE deal could boost Lancashire workers &#40;From Lancashire Telegraph)


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## Abingdonboy

angeldemon_007 said:


> Talks over £7.2billion BAE deal could boost Lancashire workers &#40;From Lancashire Telegraph)


 
The IAF/MoD/GoI are playingthis deal very craftily, they are trying to extract every advantage both sides will offerto "sweeten" the deal. They have both sides practically bending over backwards for this deal which both sides very much need/want. I expect there has been much along these lines that has not been publicised like avionics UPG, HMDS, delivery schedule, Marinised panes (EFT) so India gets the best offering. 


Well played!! Once this deal is signed we will see just how "sweet" the deal is. And thats before you even talk about offsets!!


----------



## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> *The IAF/MoD/GoI are playingthis deal very craftily, they are trying to extract every advantage both sides will offerto "sweeten" the deal*. They have both sides practically bending over backwards for this deal which both sides very much need/want. I expect there has been much along these lines that has not been publicised like avionics UPG, HMDS, delivery schedule, Marinised panes (EFT) so India gets the best offering.
> 
> 
> Well played!! Once this deal is signed we will see just how "sweet" the deal is. And thats before you even talk about offsets!!


 
No doubt on that, all the delays and the switch to M - MRCA was a good decision in terms of technical and industrial benefits, especially since those 2 were shortlisted that provides us the most in this field. But I still think they are basically pushing the French in the right direction, the rumors that the Rafale could be out was well placed and got much attention in the media and all forums and that lead to corrections of the French in their initial offer. All this without a single official statement, that there could be any problem with the Rafale! MoD is defenitelly playing it's card right so far, but I'm sure they would have liked to see the Super Hornet beeing shortlisted as well, even if the aim was just to push the Europeans once more.


----------



## DacterSaab

angeldemon_007 said:


> Talks over £7.2billion BAE deal could boost Lancashire workers &#40;From Lancashire Telegraph)


 
There's a very interesting first comment on this page could some1 on our forums elaborate plz.


----------



## DacterSaab

sancho said:


> but I'm sure they would have liked to see the Super Hornet beeing shortlisted as well, even if the aim was just to push the Europeans once more.


 
totally agree that a 3rd finalist would have been a very good move but I think shortlisting MiG-35 instead of super hornet would have been a much better move as a Russian finalist would have appeared more threatening to Europeans than American binding contracts which the whole world knows that Indians don't like the whole world except Americans due to lack of sufficient intelligence.**


----------



## kingdurgaking

If F-18 had been shortlisted it would bag the deal with ease.. because it is cheaper.. and 50% offset they will meet with ease... they would meet the thin line unlike Rafale and EFT who are giving everything to bag the deal... If Mig-35 would have been shortlisted .. surely LM and Boeing would have filed a lawsuit... they could have easily proved it is not worth to there machines because it is not ready or nothing is there to prove it is Mig-35


----------



## DacterSaab

kingdurgaking said:


> If F-18 had been shortlisted it would bag the deal with ease.. because it is cheaper.. and 50% offset they will meet with ease... they would meet the thin line unlike Rafale and EFT who are giving everything to bag the deal... If Mig-35 would have been shortlisted .. surely LM and Boeing would have filed a lawsuit... they could have easily proved it is not worth to there machines because it is not ready or nothing is there to prove it is Mig-35


 
IAF is the customer the MiG-35 would be unmatchable in terms of fleet commonality, cost-efficiency (both in terms of being the cheapest to procure and infrastructure/logistic modifications) and could be short-listed purely on those very grounds to pressurize the Europeans the LM and Boeing would **** in their pants b4 filing a law suit to beat these requirements. going by your logic the EFT manufacturers can file a suit if Dassault bags their orders as EFT is said to be the most advanced jet in the whole lot but take a look at various shortlists around the world the customer has the right to choose which aircraft it wants to purchase and it doesn't matter if ur aircraft is the best or most advanced your law-suit ain't worth **** if i don't feel it suits me and my requirements. the f-18 would have never won the MMRCA cause the US had made it clear that there would be restrictions and the 4th largest air force in world cannot afford restrictions on middle 1/3rd of it's fleet also they could not offer matchable TOT as compared to Europeans so shortlisted hornet would be a giveaway as the Europeans would realize that it has been shortlisted only to pressurize them and that even the IAF won't purchase it. On the other hand a MiG finalist would really make the Europeans bend hands over heels cause they'd feel that if they miss out anywhere the MiG will surely bag the contract.


----------



## kingdurgaking

DacterSaab said:


> IAF is the customer the MiG-35 would be unmatchable in terms of fleet commonality, cost-efficiency (both in terms of being the cheapest to procure and infrastructure/logistic modifications) and could be short-listed purely on those very grounds to pressurize the Europeans the LM and Boeing would **** in their pants b4 filing a law suit to beat these requirements. going by your logic the EFT manufacturers can file a suit if Dassault bags their orders as EFT is said to be the most advanced jet in the whole lot but take a look at various shortlists around the world the customer has the right to choose which aircraft it wants to purchase and it doesn't matter if ur aircraft is the best or most advanced your law-suit ain't worth **** if i don't feel it suits me and my requirements. the f-18 would have never won the MMRCA cause the US had made it clear that there would be restrictions and the 4th largest air force in world cannot afford restrictions on middle 1/3rd of it's fleet also they could not offer matchable TOT as compared to Europeans so shortlisted hornet would be a giveaway as the Europeans would realize that it has been shortlisted only to pressurize them and that even the IAF won't purchase it. On the other hand a MiG finalist would really make the Europeans bend hands over heels cause they'd feel that if they miss out anywhere the MiG will surely bag the contract.


 
The very base which you have got i wrong is Mig-35 is not developed .. it is just a modification on Mig-29.. SAAB got rejected because it couldnt prove that AESA exist.. though it started IAF is not convinced.. so going by this logic if you say Mig-35 exist other vendors will surely question the credibility of the selection.. there is no Mig-35 but Mig-29 modified.. and we don't want such an aircraft in the fleet... Your argument on fleet commonality and cost efficient.... Mig-35 is not cost efficient.. there is a maintenance cost which is very high and commonality yes... but not that great deal .... if commonality is the criteria the RFI will be sent only to France and Russia.. but clearly that is not the criteria ... 

Your logic if Dassault is selected , EFT will file the law suit.. the point is both of them qualified to the negotiation round.. and whoever gives the L1 will get the deal.. because IAF is not requesting the best of the best.. but a fighter that qualifies its requirement which is clear both of them qualified... thats why EFT who have higher cost are trying to compensate on offset clause while Dassault is trying to match the requirement...


----------



## DacterSaab

my friend this is a purchase not a competition it is the customer who decides what it wants and justifies them accordingly are you telling me that if *'the Indian Air Force* traditionally known to have flown almost every MiG since 3rd gen jets and still leaning most heavily towards Russian hardware claimed that Russian MiG was most suitable for it anybody in the world would disagree to it? i don't think so.

what you say about the RFI is true if that is the solitary criteria in any other condition RFI may be issued to any1 who we think may be interested remember RFI was only sent to 4 bidders 2 others joined later on because they wanted to sell and have you ever gone to a market every seller will want to sell you buddy if they think your pockets are deep enough but in the end its you who decides what you want from whom and no1 can challenge this criteria.


----------



## DacterSaab

remember boeing stating that we accepted Europeans could deliver AESA but did not accept Americans could deliver better engine thats what happened at the debrief the boeing ppl were told that "hey man shut up 1st we didn't send you RFI 2nd you dont offer 100% TOT 3rd your fighters are old designs 4th we won't accept restrictions 5th your not buying them yourselves. so stop being the cry baby if we thought you could win we'd send you RFI now go and concentrate on giving us what we need from you and in the future only offer us that which is best for your own forces then we'd probably consider bye."
and as for Lockheed Martin "oh we'd buy your planes as soon as you take back all the f-16s your giving to Pak and erase the memories of every1 in pak who has ever had any significant experience with an f-16 and apart from the 1st point to boeing all others apply to you too mister so don't think ur better and you think your a smart mouth offering us f-35 we'd take it brother but first give us a significant no. of f-35 for free just like you gift our dear loving neighbours now get out and stop whining"


----------



## kingdurgaking

DacterSaab said:


> my friend this is a purchase not a competition it is the customer who decides what it wants and justifies them accordingly are you telling me that if *'the Indian Air Force* traditionally known to have flown almost every MiG since 3rd gen jets and still leaning most heavily towards Russian hardware claimed that Russian MiG was most suitable for it anybody in the world would disagree to it? i don't think so.
> 
> what you say about the RFI is true if that is the solitary criteria in any other condition RFI may be issued to any1 who we think may be interested remember RFI was only sent to 4 bidders 2 others joined later on because they wanted to sell and have you ever gone to a market every seller will want to sell you buddy if they think your pockets are deep enough but in the end its you who decides what you want from whom and no1 can challenge this criteria.


 
You are right we are using Mig heavily.. but we were are also operating Mirage and Jaguar.. Infact IAF realized servicing and maintenance of western aircraft are far better.. thats why LCA is designed with western architecture in mind.. even for engine we went to US but not Russia.. excluding Mig in MMRCA more than 70% of the fleet is from Russia.. Russia is one of our trusted partner .. but depending too much on them was suicidal because of the situation that happened in early 90's ... thats why from very first day Mig was not considered by IAF or IAF was not that keen.. but Mig pushed it with a new version and there development will start only after they find some export partner in this case India.. Today Mig-35 dreams have been curtained..


----------



## Firemaster

kingdurgaking said:


> You are right we are using Mig heavily.. but we were are also operating Mirage and Jaguar.. Infact IAF realized servicing and maintenance of western aircraft are far better.. thats why LCA is designed with western architecture in mind.. even for engine we went to US but not Russia.. excluding Mig in MMRCA more than 70% of the fleet is from Russia.. Russia is one of our trusted partner .. but depending too much on them was suicidal because of the situation that happened in early 90's ... thats why from very first day Mig was not considered by IAF or IAF was not that keen.. but Mig pushed it with a new version and there development will start only after they find some export partner in this case India.. Today Mig-35 dreams have been curtained..


 
Very well said


----------



## DacterSaab

we were not talking about winner we were talking about how mig as a 3rd finalist would pressurize europeans more than superhornet as a 3rd finalist


----------



## sancho

DacterSaab said:


> totally agree that a 3rd finalist would have been a very good move but I think shortlisting MiG-35 instead of super hornet would have been a much better move as a Russian finalist would have appeared more threatening to Europeans than American binding contracts which the whole world knows that Indians don't like the whole world except Americans due to lack of sufficient intelligence.**


 
The Mig wouldn't be a good choice to put pressure on the other, because they are clearly more capable and with much more future potential. But most of all, if one of the major requirements is to improve our industry with as much ToT and offsets as possible, the Russians wouldn't put any pressure on the Europeans at all, because we already get the best that Russia could offer with MKI and FGFA. Western techs and companies are clearly more prefered now and that's why the chance to get US techs (even if it's only limited of critical parts), would have forced the European countries to provide more.
On the other side I am happy, that the choice can be European only now and politics plays just a minor role, which is good for our forces!


----------



## DacterSaab

sancho said:


> The Mig wouldn't be a good choice to put pressure on the other, because they are clearly more capable and with much more future potential. But most of all, if one of the major requirements is to improve our industry with as much ToT and offsets as possible, the Russians wouldn't put any pressure on the Europeans at all, because we already get the best that Russia could offer with MKI and FGFA. Western techs and companies are clearly more prefered now and that's why the chance to get US techs (even if it's only limited of critical parts), would have forced the European countries to provide more.
> On the other side I am happy, that the choice can be European only now and politics plays just a minor role, which is good for our forces!


hmmmm that's true it's just IAF without MiGs couple of decades ago someone would have called it nuts never the less i'm glad as it's for the best.


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## sancho

> *A FICHTER PILOT'S DREAM; Special Features Refale*
> 
> *Air Marshal (Retd) B.K. Pandey*
> 
> SP Aviation July 18, 2011...










Full article on page 22 onwards:

SP's Aviation July 2011

Credits to Olybrius from the MP forum


P.S. Also interesting, interviews with IAF Chief Naik (page 19 onwards) and Air Marshal N.A.K. Browne (page 27 onwards)

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## angeldemon_007

Eurofighter optimistic to win India's MMRCA contract - Brahmand.com


----------



## praveen007

*it seems that India is tilting towards euro-fighter as this artical suggest that there is some snag between the talks with Indian defence ministry and french rafale*
.
UAE most likely buyer for French Rafale jet-minister | Reuters
.
UAE most likely buyer for French Rafale jet-minister.
Wed, Jul 20 11:42 AM EDT
* French Defence Minister says talks with UAE advanced
* UAE no longer demanding more powerful engines
PARIS, July 20(Reuters) - The United Arab Emirates is France's best bet in the short term for clinching an export deal for Dassault Aviation's Rafale fighter jet, French Defence Minister Gerard Longuet said on Wednesday.
The French company has still not found a foreign buyer for the multi-role Rafale, billed as one of the most effective but also one of the most expensive fighter jets in the world.
The aircraft maker had come close to securing a multi-billion-dollar deal with Brazil, but the Brazilian government has delayed its decision until 2012 and President Dilma Lousseff looks to be favouring rival Boeing's F-18.
India has shortlisted the Rafale along with Eurofighter's Typhoon for a 126-jet deal and talks are ongoing, although Longuet appeared *to suggest they may have hit a snag.*
"Some countries have budget problems, as in Brazil's case. They may also have political problems, as in India's case.
That leaves the Emirates and talks are advanced," Longuet told reporters in Paris.
The minister said the UAE was no longer demanding a more powerful engine, previously a condition for a deal, and said he thought Rafale airstrikes in Libya had helped sway the Emirati government.
"The operational and multi-role capacities of the Rafale are being proven on a daily basis with these strikes," he said.
"The Libyan conflict is a clear demonstration that the current engine capacity is sufficient."
The UAE has been in talks with Dassault since 2008 over the purchase of 60 Rafale jets, estimated at 10 billion dollars, to replace their fleet of Mirage 2000s which they bought in 1983.
Talks with Brazil have been going on for years, and Dassault came close to a deal with former president Luis Ignacio da
Silva. But that was thrown into doubt by his successor President Dilma Roussef who demanded a review of all finalists' bids when she took office at the start of 2011.
Last week, Brazilian Defence
Minister Nelson Jobim said the
government would not re-
examine bids until the start of
2012 as it needed to focus on its
domestic agenda.
"The Rafale hasn't been ruled
out but that decision isn't
President Dilma Roussef's main
priority at the moment,"
Longuet told reporters in Paris.
Regarding the Indian talks,
Longuet said he was confident
the government preferred the
Rafale and that the final
decision would be technical
rather than political.
"Things seem to look good," he
said, adding that in India's case
too Libya had also had a positive
effect. (Reporting by Emmanuel
Jarry; Writing by Vicky Buffery;
Editing by Jon Loades-Carter)


----------



## Jon Snow

good if true - am supporting the eft......
Have noticed something odd about people here - they seem to love pouncing on russia whenever there is a delay or cost overrun- but they love the french, forgetting that we have signed two major deals with them and both of them have had huge cost overruns and delays( scorpenes and mirage upg which will take 9 yrs to upg 51 aircraft)..... This might be something mod will want to take into consideration while making the decision( there are other factors as well like them supplying pakistan etc)


----------



## sancho

praveen007 said:


> Regarding the Indian talks, *Longuet said he was confident the government preferred the Rafale and that the final
> decision would be technical rather than political. "Things seem to look good*," he said, adding that in India's case too Libya had also had a positive effect.



You might missed this part of the article isn't it?




Jon Snow said:


> good if true - am supporting the eft......
> Have noticed something odd about people here - they seem to love pouncing on russia whenever there is a delay or cost overrun- but they love the french,* forgetting that we have signed two major deals with them and both of them have had huge cost overruns and delays*( scorpenes and mirage upg which will take 9 yrs to upg 51 aircraft)..... This might be something mod will want to take into consideration while making the decision( there are other factors as well like them supplying pakistan etc)


 
 The Mirage upgrade is neither signed, nor is there any costoverrun so far, because only the deal is not fixed. All the talk about higher costs, or the 9 years are only media speculations. Moreover!!! The RFP was send out years ago and answered by the French, it is our MoD/GoI that keeps delaying a decision about it, similarly, the upgrade will be done in India, IF it is true and it will take 9 years, it would be HALs fault. So in both examples of you, are rather examples that makes us look bad, not the French.
However, it is true that our MoD/GoI will take into consideration that we had problems with the Scorpene subs, or how the French behaived in the Mirage upgrade negotioations (which only MoD/GoI and IAF knows so far, that's why the media speculates so much!), but also that France is a long term reliable and trusted partner, be it in peace, war, or sanction times, that they offer us key techs and weapons that other western countries doesn't and that their products had a clear advantage over Russian counterparts in terms of, quality, reliability and after sale support!
They have their down sides like any other country, but from our point of view France has several advantages for sure and this is even a key for us to bound them closer to us, keep in mind that they didn't sold radar and weapons for JF 17 and suspended all major weapon sales to Pakistan.


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## anniyan

Friends i am not sure where to post, i know its a wrong thread but its worth watching

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## SpArK

*Boeing F/A-18E/F IRST System Advances to Next Development Phase
​*
ST. LOUIS, July 21, 2011 -- The Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet Infrared Search and Track (IRST) program received a Milestone B Acquisition Decision Memorandum from the U.S. Navy on July 13. This allows the program to advance to its next development phase -- Engineering and Manufacturing Development.

*The IRST system is a passive, long-range sensor that searches for and detects infrared emissions. The system can simultaneously track multiple targets and provide a highly effective air-to-air targeting capability, even when encountering advanced threats equipped with radar-jamming technology.
*

*"The IRST sensor system will expand Super Hornet detection and targeting capability in multiple mission profiles, including electronically denied environments," said Tim Adrian, Boeing F/A-18E/F IRST program manager. "The F/A-18E/F features a balanced approach to combat survivability and lethality, employing a variety of onboard sensors that provide aircrews with unmatched situational awareness. The new IRST system will continue to expand the Super Hornet's advanced capability."*

IRST is a critical element of the Navy's F/A-18E/F Block II Super Hornet Flight Plan, a series of planned capability enhancements that ensures the Super Hornet will continue to outdistance known and emerging threats over the coming decades.



Subcontracted to Boeing on the IRST contract are Lockheed Martin [NYSE: LMT], which is producing the IRST sensor; GE Aviation [NYSE: GE], for the fuel tank assembly that will contain the sensor; and Meggitt Defense Systems Inc., Irvine, Calif., for the unit's cooling subassembly.

The Boeing Super Hornet is a multirole aircraft, able to perform virtually every mission in the tactical spectrum, including air superiority, day/night strike with precision-guided weapons, fighter escort, close air support, suppression of enemy air defenses, maritime strike, reconnaissance, forward air control and tanker missions.

A unit of The Boeing Company, Boeing Defense, Space & Security is one of the world's largest defense, space and security businesses specializing in innovative and capabilities-driven customer solutions, and the world's largest and most versatile manufacturer of military aircraft. Headquartered in St. Louis, Boeing Defense, Space & Security is a $32 billion business with 65,000 employees worldwide.

Boeing F/A-18E/F IRST System Advances to Next Development Phase | Product Design and Development


----------



## Executioner

anniyan said:


> Friends i am not sure where to post, i know its a wrong thread but its worth watching



Thanks it was very informative.


----------



## luckyyy

MMRCA thread been most talkative once ..

but *not only MMRCA but for last few weeks i am observing the over all message posted by indian members on PDF on a decline..*

what up ? why ?

are the indian members are losing intrest here on PDF , but why ?


----------



## marcos98

luckyyy said:


> MMRCA thread been most talkative once ..
> 
> but *not only MMRCA but for last few weeks i am observing the over all message posted by indian members on PDF on a decline..*
> 
> what up ? why ?
> 
> are the indian members are losing intrest here on PDF , but why ?


 
Silence before the storm


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## praveen007

IAF pushes for opening of aircraft bids to replace MIG 21s - Brahmand.com
.
.
NEW DELHI (PTI): Keen on
getting 126 combat aircraft as
early as possible, the Indian Air
Force (IAF) is pushing for the
commercial bids of the two
contenders  Eurofighter and
Dassault  to be opened before
the end of this month.
We are pushing the Defence
Ministry to open the bids of
these two companies by the
end of this month, a senior
IAF official told PTI.
After the opening of the
commercial bids, the Defence
Ministry will work out the L-1
(lowest bidder) in the tender on the basis of the
life cycle cost of operating the two aircraft.
There are around nine enclosures and each of
them have 20 points which include parameters
like labour cost, repairing and maintenance cost,
cost of spare parts and their service ability and
the man-hours required to maintain the aircraft.
All this would be taken into account to determine
the lowest bidder, the official said.
As per the Defence Procurement Procedure, the
vendors offering a military product at lowest
price and meeting all the requirements are
awarded the contract.
IAF had evaluated six contenders including
Eurofighter and Dassault Aviation. In April, the
other four contenders including American Boeing
and Lockheed Martin, Russian RAC MiG and
Swedish Saab Gripen were intimated that they
will not be allowed to take part in the further
tendering process.
IAF had evaluated them on 660 parameters and
Defence Ministry had said that the deal was
expected to be finalised by the end of this fiscal.
The aircraft will be used by the Air Force to
replace its fleet of MiG-21s and augment its
capabilities to carry out multi-role missions.
.
IAF pushes for opening of aircraft bids to replace MIG 21s - Brahmand.com

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## Abingdonboy

luckyyy said:


> MMRCA thread been most talkative once ..
> 
> but *not only MMRCA but for last few weeks i am observing the over all message posted by indian members on PDF on a decline..*
> 
> what up ? why ?
> 
> are the indian members are losing intrest here on PDF , but why ?


 
I remember the exact same thing happened before the April-11 "down-select". When the news first appeared on PDF the opener received many, many thanks and there were over 120 members vowing the thread at any one time. This lasted for days after with both the MMRCA "sticky" and EFF-Rafle going strong. Now it seems there os very little, new, to talks about as most of the facets of this incredibly complex deal, that are open to the public (much remains classified) has been talked, discussed, argued, shouted etc and all members can do is post any news that remotely relates to either remaining fighter (and sometimes eliminated ones) whether mentioning MMRCA or not. And many are waiting for submittal of commercial bids soon and eventual winner in, hopefully, September.


----------



## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> I remember the exact same thing happened before the April-11 "down-select". When the news first appeared on PDF the opener received many, many thanks and there were over 120 members vowing the thread at any one time. This lasted for days after with both the MMRCA "sticky" and EFF-Rafle going strong. Now it seems there os very little, new, to talks about as most of the facets of this incredibly complex deal, that are open to the public (much remains classified) has been talked, discussed, argued, shouted etc and all members can do is post any news that remotely relates to either remaining fighter (and sometimes eliminated ones) whether mentioning MMRCA or not. And many are waiting for submittal of commercial bids soon and eventual winner in, hopefully, September.


 
True and there is simply not much news, or infos at the moment, because the comercial bid will be oppened now and it will take some time till some official statements on them will come out. So far we have only media speculations and PR, especially from the EF side (better in A2G than Rafale in Libya, better than Su 30 MKI in A2A), the rest are mainly reports from the operational service in Libya.


----------



## LiberalAtheist

self delete


----------



## praveen007

*IAF likely to buy 189 jet fighters for over $20 bn*
.
NEW DELHI: The &#8220;mother&#8221; could well become the
&#8220;granny&#8221; of all defence deals. India is likely to go
in for another 63 fighters after delivery of the first
126 MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft) if
the &#8220;timelines&#8221; for its other fighter development
projects are not met, say top defence officials.
This would be the biggest overhaul of any air
force in the world in such a short period.
When the MMRCA selection process was initiated
in mid-2007, the project cost was pegged at Rs
42,000 crore, or $10.4 billion for 126 fighters. But
it will zoom well beyond $20 billion if India opts
for 189 jets. Even with 126 jets, this is the biggest
such fighter contract going around the world as
of now.
India is likely to go in for another 63 fighters after
delivery of the first 126 medium multi-role
combat aircraft if other fighter jet projects get
delayed.
The move comes even as the defence ministry is
all set to open the commercial bids of the two jets
left in the MMRCA fray &#8212;French Rafale and
Eurofighter Typhoon, &#8220;within a week or two&#8221;.
Eurofighter Typhoon is backed by the UK,
Germany, Spain and Italy.
The ministry has already rejected &#8220;any scope for
comeback&#8221; by other four jets, including the
American F/A-18 s and F-16 s, ejected out of the
MMRCA race in April on technical grounds after
gruelling field trials. &#8220;We are looking for only 126
fighters. The first 18 jets will come from abroad,
while the rest 108 will be manufactured by
Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd after transfer of
technology from end-2016 or early-2017
onwards,&#8221; said a senior ministry official.
&#8220;But yes, if the timelines for the Tejas LCA (Light
Combat Aircraft) and the stealth Indo-Russian
FGFA (Fifth-Generation Fighter Aircraft) projects
are not met, we will go for more MMRCA to retain
IAF&#8217;s combat edge,&#8221; he added....... 
.
.
*full artical on below link
.
IAF plans biggest overhaul of fighters - The Economic Times*


----------



## Hulk

luckyyy said:


> MMRCA thread been most talkative once ..
> 
> but *not only MMRCA but for last few weeks i am observing the over all message posted by indian members on PDF on a decline..*
> 
> what up ? why ?
> 
> are the indian members are losing intrest here on PDF , but why ?


 I felt the same and the reason is idf.


----------



## Archie

indianrabbit said:


> I felt the same and the reason is idf.


 
a lot of it has to do with increasing amount of trolling on the pages of this forum

thats mainly due to the invasion of Peoples Liberation Trolling Army , whose aim is to divert every topic to poverty and toilets , and they will continue to do so even 10-15 yrs from now , when the stats which they like to quote would be 20 yrs old and Indian economy would be around 6 Trillion USD

Do u know that one poster even sugested renaming this forum from Pakistandefenceforum to Sinotrollforum


----------



## kingdurgaking

*MMRCA Benchmarking Complete By IAF, Lowest Bidder In 5-6 Weeks*

Source live fist

Within a month or two .. curtains will be down for this thread... After hectic discussion for years.. let this thread R.I.P

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## SpArK

So another months waiting before the results.. Great news!


----------



## SpArK

*Package, not just bid price, to decide $10.4-bn dogfight winner
​*
New Delhi: With commercial bids for the countrys $10.4-billion order for 126 multi-role combat jets likely to be opened by this month end, the stage is set for a showdown between two multi-role European fighters *as both try to prove economically-efficient option by including offers like the lifecycle and maintenance costs.*

Both the aircraft  Eurofighter Typhoon and Dassaults Rafale  are being deployed in policing the no-fly zone over Libya and both are seeking export sales to compensate for defence-spending cuts at home. However, the declaration of the successful bidder will take a while. According to the outgoing IAF chief, Air chief marshal PV Naik, *Once the commercial bids are opened, the final decision would still take a couple of months as it is not just the price but the package in terms of direct costs, support programmes, training, offsets and lifecycle costs which would determine the winner.*

*It may be noted that according to industry insiders, Rafale had quoted a price of $85 million per aircraft and Eurofighter $100 million per piece in flyaway condition in the recent Brazilian competition. For the Indian Air Force (IAF), the Rafale and Eurofighter quote is anybodys guess, but according to the the industry the machines should cost anywhere between $75 million and $80 million per aircraft in flyaway condition.*

*The IAF will arrive at a final cost for the two aircraft based on various other factors like the lifecycle cost, maintenance cost, transfer of technology and cost of spare parts. Also, 50% of the total cost of the deal has to be invested in the Indian industry under the offsets obligation.
*


The two contenders have a long competitive history. France had pulled out of the early stages of the Eurofighter project 30 years ago and opted to build its own fighter plane, the Rafale, as a successor to the Mirage. Presently, Rafale is still looking for its first foreign customer, while the Eurofighter programme is facing various cutbacks home.

*According to Eurofighter officials, 280 Typhoons have already been delivered out of the 707 on contract to Germany, Italy, Spain, the UK, Austria and Saudi Arabia. Asked if Eurofighter is willing to give away its unique selling \propositions, including source codes of radars and design, for the sake of 126 units, the consortium said it would not be an issue if India becomes a partner of the Eurofighter programme.
*


*Rafale so far has sold just 180 aircraft to its own French air force at a cost of 142.3 million euros each, including material costs, investments made and the variables.* The French Court of Auditors Annual Public Report 2010 has pointed out that the French air force had initially placed an order for 320 aircraft, but the defence ministry downsized it to 280. Sources in the Indian government said, *The European consortium, to give an edge to its offer, has invited India to become a partner for the Typhoon programme and also offered to establish a production line in India. The Rafale has the advantage of being logistically and operationally similar to the Mirage 2000, which the IAF is presently operating. The Rafales inclusion would require fewer changes in the existing infrastructure.*

*According to the French audit report, in early 2000, sharp rise in material costs had created a cash crisis for the Rafale programme. Also, with no foreign buyers the price tag per piece of the aircraft is likely to go up. On the other hand, Germany, Italy, Spain and the UK, which partner the development and production of the Eurofighter Typhoon, are willing to put everything on the table under the technology transfer commitments if they win the contract to supply these aircraft to the IAF.
*

Package, not just bid price, to decide $10.4-bn dogfight winner


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## sancho

kingdurgaking said:


> Within a month or two .. curtains will be down for this thread... After hectic discussion for years.. let this thread R.I.P



Not sure about that, because until the winner will be inducted into the fleet, there will be still discussions about the capabilities and advantages that the fighter finally will have for IAF and not to mention that some people will start comparing it to PAF and PLAAF fighters directly. But I do think that the attention will divert to FGFA then, because that is the next main project and by then we might get more infos about it as well.


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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> Not sure about that, because until the winner will be inducted into the fleet, there will be still discussions about the capabilities and advantages that the fighter finally will have for IAF and not to mention that some people will start comparing it to PAF and PLAAF fighters directly. But I do think that the attention will divert to FGFA then, because that is the next main project and by then we might get more infos about it as well.


 
Yeah one vs thread might run for some 100 pages... Any way the result will be F-16 or J-10 will kick EFT or Rafale a$$


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## marcos98

This is the single-most awesome take-off ever by any aircraft.
Damn these french are crazy.

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## praveen007

Livefist: MMRCA Benchmarking Complete By IAF, Lowest Bidder In 5-6 Weeks
.





.
IAF chief on #MMRCA: "I expect
the lowest bidder to be declared
in 5-6 weeks. IAF benchmarking
complete."
.
Twitter / Shiv Aroor: IAF chief on #MMRCA: "I ex ...


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## DkBose

my heart says typhoon will win but i want rafale


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## SpArK

marcos98 said:


> This is the single-most awesome take-off ever by any aircraft.
> Damn these french are crazy.


 
Damn good video... and they still say EFT is more maneuverable.


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## Jon Snow

Winner of combat aircraft deal likely in 5-6 weeks: Naik -  

Winner of combat aircraft deal likely in 5-6 weeks: Naik


New Delhi, Jul 26 (PTI) Air Chief Marshal P V Naik today said the likely winner of the multi-billion dollar combat aircraft deal would be known in the "next five to six" weeks.

"The next step is to call vendors and open up the commercial bids. I think in the next five to six weeks, I expect that the L1 (lowest bidder) would be decided," he said here.

As per the Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP), the lowest bidder in the multi vendor tenders is considered to be the winner of the deals.

European consortium Eurofighter Typhoon and the French Dassault Rafale are the two companies in race for supplying 126 Medium-Multirole Combat Aircraft (M-MRCA) to the Indian Air Force.

The two companies were shortlisted after a five-year long competition between six companies including the American Boeing and Lockheed Martin, Russian MiG 35 and Swedish Saab Gripen.

*The IAF chief said that major procedures such as the completion of the Technical Offsets Evaluation Committee report have been finalised.
*
Commenting on the Mirage 2000 aircraft upgrade programme, Naik said the deal worth over Rs 10,900 crore would be signed soon under which 51 aircraft would be upgraded.

The Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) had recently cleared the proposal for upgrading 51 aircraft to the Mirage 2000-5 standards in collaboration with France.

On the results for procuring heavy-lift and attack helicopters, the IAF chief said the trials have been completed by the force and the trial report would be submitted to the Defence Ministry soon.


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## Jon Snow

so does it mean that offsets have been finalized for both???


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## luckyyy

kingdurgaking said:


> *MMRCA Benchmarking Complete By IAF, Lowest Bidder In 5-6 Weeks*
> 
> Source live fist
> 
> Within a month or two .. curtains will be down for this thread... After hectic discussion for years.. let this thread R.I.P


 
like the technical peremeters , is there a banchmark for the price too , or the IAF/MoD /FM will go ahead and buy at whatever price quotes in the L1 bid ...i mean if say will they just buy the L1 bid *or there is a banchmark/limit on the maximum price they are to buy..*


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## luckyyy

Archie said:


> a lot of it has to do with increasing amount of trolling on the pages of this forum


 
you think indian members now had enough of it and they slowly moving away to waste their spare time on some other ways ..


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## sancho

SpArK said:


> Damn good video... and they still say EFT is more maneuverable.


 
More importantly, that the Rafale lacks thrust.


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## angeldemon_007

> For the Indian Air Force (IAF), the Rafale and Eurofighter quote is anybodys guess, but according to the the industry the machines should cost anywhere between $75 million and $80 million per aircraft in flyaway condition.


If only 5 million $ is the difference between EF and Rafale then it seems like chances of Rafale is getting low.



> Asked if Eurofighter is willing to give away its unique selling \propositions, including source codes of radars and design, for the sake of 126 units, the consortium said it would not be an issue if India becomes a partner of the Eurofighter programme.


Its bad news for Rafale but i don't think we should become part of EF program as it might be too expensive for us. We can always upgrade our aircraft from Israelis in cheaper price. But being apart of this program might help us in our indigenous program.


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## praveen007

*India's combat aircraft deal likely in 5-6 weeks: Naik - Brahmand.com*
.
NEW DELHI (PTI): India&#8217;s Air Chief Marshal P V Naik has said the likely winner of the multi-billion dollar combat aircraft deal would be known in the "next five to six" weeks. "The next step is to call vendors and open up the commercial bids. I think in the next five to six weeks, I expect that the L1 (lowest bidder) would be decided," he said on Tuesday.
As per the Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP), the lowest bidder in the multi vendor tenders is considered to be the winner of the deals.
European consortium Eurofighter Typhoon and
the French Dassault Rafale are the two companies
in race for supplying 126 Medium-Multirole
Combat Aircraft (M-MRCA) to the Indian Air Force.
The two companies were shortlisted after a five-
year long competition between six companies
including the American Boeing and Lockheed
Martin, Russian MiG 35 and Swedish Saab Gripen.
The IAF chief said that major procedures such as
the completion of the Technical Offsets Evaluation
Committee report have been finalised.
Commenting on the Mirage 2000 aircraft upgrade
programme, Naik said the deal worth over Rs
10,900 crore would be signed soon under which
51 aircraft would be upgraded.
On the results for procuring heavy-lift and attack
helicopters, the IAF chief said the trials have been
completed by the force and the trial report would
be submitted to the Defence Ministry soon.
On the controversy surrounding the
procurement of the basic trainer aircraft, the IAF
chief said, "I am not aware of any Korean
controversy. They have written a letter that they
should be given a chance. Correct procedure has
been followed and Swiss firm Pilatus has been
declared as lowest bidder.
"There is no controversy as far as I am
concerned. Now the commercial negotiations will
start."
On the highest point in his career, Naik, who is
retiring on July 31, said it came when he visited
the US for the Red Flag exercises as the Vice Chief
of Air Force where the IAF came in for lot of
praise for its efficiency and professionalism.
"The conquering of the Mount Everest by three
women officers was the highest point as Chief of
Air Staff," he said.
Asked why the IAF was not taking part in
multilateral Red Flag exercises held in the US, he
said, "Taking part in such exercises costs money
and that is why we have decided that we will take
part only once in five years in such exercises. So,
the next exercise may take place in 2013."
On queries about the possibility of Indian armed
forces to carry out Abottabad like operations, he
said, "Yes, we do have the capability to carry out
a similar operation."
To a query on the proposed Medium Combat
Aircraft (MCA) being developed by the DRDO, the
IAF chief said, "At present, I have been so busy
with the LCA that I have had no time to think
about MCA."
"Its development has already started on drawing
board. Once developed, it will be a twin engine
aircraft. I think it will be an improvement on the
LCA," he said.

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## SpArK

india rocks said:


> hii, i m new to this thread
> i just wanted to ask, in terms of specs(weapons, radars, avionics, speed and etc ) which is the better eft or rafale ???


 
Rafale.... its 2 times better ... almost half the price... buy 1 get 1 free offer too..


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## Vibs

SpArK said:


> Rafale.... its 2 times better ... almost half the price... buy 1 get 1 free offer too..


 
Lol...thts the best summary to the MMRCA I've seen till date!!!


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## kingdurgaking

india rocks said:


> can you give me some spec detail with links may be ???


 
go back into this repository ... you will find lot of details..


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## Jon Snow

india rocks said:


> hii, i m new to this thread
> i just wanted to ask, in terms of specs(weapons, radars, avionics, speed and etc ) which is the better eft or rafale ???


 
depends on a lot of factors - not just specs.
specs too are pretty divided - 
weapons - for a2a eft has a lot more variety (aim 120, iris t, asraam,sidewinder and in future meteor) while the rafale currently has only mica for both bvr and wvr and in future it will get the meteor.
but in a2g the rafale has a much better armament ( scalp, apache, exocet(anti ship), paveway etc) while the eft currently can only use lgb's and dumb bombs - the tranche 3b is upposed to get a lot more goodies but the consortium has no money to fund the integration hence they are offering india partnership in the program and hoping india will help finance these projects
for radars- the rafale is going to get the aesa radar in 2012 while the eft gets it in 2015 but the radar of eft is , on paper, at least much better than the rafale's.
avionics - rafale all the way - french avionics are among the best in the world
speed - rafale has top speed at 1.8 mach while eft is 2 mach, both can supercruise.
other features like maneuverability, agility, rate of climb etc are pretty evenly matched.
the ew suite of rafale (spectra) is highly praised while the irst of the eft(PIRATE) is supposedly very good.
engine of the rafale( m88-2) is older and underpowered.

so in the end - both planes are extremely good and the iaf has already stated that they dont have a preference and will be happy with either one.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## sancho

Jon Snow said:


> weapons - for a2a eft has a lot more variety (aim 120, iris t, asraam,sidewinder and in future meteor) while the rafale currently has only mica for both bvr and wvr and in future it will get the meteor.
> but in a2g the rafale has a much better armament ( scalp, apache, exocet(anti ship), paveway etc) while the eft currently can only use lgb's and dumb bombs - the tranche 3b is upposed to get a lot more goodies but the consortium has no money to fund the integration hence they are offering india partnership in the program and hoping india will help finance these projects


 
Good summery, but the weapon package of Rafale as a whole is way better than EFs, because of the unique advantages of MICA and AASM. Coupled with SPECTRA and FSO, these weapons offers great advantages that the EF can't! 
Btw, as I told you and JN before, it is true that the EF can use different AAMs, but that is not an advantage in case of MMRCA, because both fighters will use METEOR as a prime BVR missile and in case EF will win, ASRAAM is the most likely WVR missile IAF would procure because of commonality with upgraded Jags. Similarly, Rafale in IAF would use METEOR and MICA (with commonality to Mirage 2000-5s), so neither IRIS-T, nor AMRAAM plays a role for IAF. 


...other features like maneuverability, agility, rate of climb etc are pretty evenly matched...

...engine of the rafale( m88-2) is older and underpowered.

You have to admit that this doesn't make sense, because if both fighters are pretty equal in terms of maneuverability, agility, or rate of climb, the M88 can't be underpowered. It's a common mistake to "just" compare the engine thrust, while ignoring the weight of the fighter. The M88 needs less power (so far), because the Rafale is way lighter than comparable twin engine fighters!

*Emptyweight:*

Rafale - 9.5 to 10.5t (depending on version)
EF - 11t+
Mig 29K - 12t+
F 18SH - 14t+

So M88-2 is not underpowered at all, but offers good thrust for Rafales weight and be trials in India, Brazil, S. Korea, Singapore, or Swiss, the ATLC exercise in the UAE, or the war scenarios in Afghanistan and Libya, thrust was never an issue for Rafale, even with heavy loads and hot climate conditions. 

Btw, the air chief obviously have to be diplomatic at this stage and in regard to all vendors, that's why he even stated that all 6 fighters were very good and pretty equal, but that doesn't mean IAF would not have preference for one of the them.

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## sancho

Something from the Brazilian competition:



> *Rafale: 'We have an operational capacity ahead of competitors*
> 
> Appointed as preferred by the Brazilian government until 2010, French fighter is estimated the most expensive
> 
> 
> "*If you want an idea of &#8203;&#8203;the cost, have to put the cost against the benefit. Otherwise, it means nothing.* " The statement is the Colonel of Army aviation Frenchman Jean-Marc Merialdo, director of the consortium Rafale in Brazil about the criticism that the game offered by the group is the most expensive in the dispute: the package is estimated at $ 6.2 billion.
> 
> "*Our package of technology transfer is priceless. It is total, complete, all the technology of the fighter,* "said Merialdo.
> 
> The French say their proposal offers a " full and complete package of technological and industrial cooperation , including know-how, software, hardware, processes and delivers all the tools and source code needed without any restriction. "
> 
> Proposed "transfer of 100% of development resources of the aircraft in Brazil" and ensure that Brazilian industry is "directly involved in the development program," tonando is "the direct supplier."
> 
> Learn more about what it says Jean-Marc Merialdo on the proposal of the Rafale...



Google Übersetzer


Rafale is shortlisted in Brazil next to Gripen NG and the F18SH, while the EF was dropped in earlier stages. Compared to the other shortlisted fighters, Rafale is the most expensive one, but is reported to offer the best ToT and industrial package in return. It was prefered by the Brazilian government, but because of budget cuts and the selection of a new president, the final selection was postponed to 2012.


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## Jon Snow

sancho said:


> Good summery, but the weapon package of Rafale as a whole is way better than EFs, because of the unique advantages of MICA and AASM. Coupled with SPECTRA and FSO, these weapons offers great advantages that the EF can't!
> Btw, as I told you and JN before, it is true that the EF can use different AAMs, but that is not an advantage in case of MMRCA, because both fighters will use METEOR as a prime BVR missile and in case EF will win, ASRAAM is the most likely WVR missile IAF would procure because of commonality with upgraded Jags. Similarly, Rafale in IAF would use METEOR and MICA (with commonality to Mirage 2000-5s), so neither IRIS-T, nor AMRAAM plays a role for IAF.
> 
> 
> ...other features like maneuverability, agility, rate of climb etc are pretty evenly matched...
> 
> ...engine of the rafale( m88-2) is older and underpowered.
> 
> *You have to admit that this doesn't make sense, because if both fighters are pretty equal in terms of maneuverability, agility, or rate of climb, the M88 can't be underpowered. It's a common mistake to "just" compare the engine thrust, while ignoring the weight of the fighter. The M88 needs less power (so far), because the Rafale is way lighter than comparable twin engine fighters!*
> 
> *Emptyweight:*
> 
> Rafale - 9.5 to 10.5t (depending on version)
> EF - 11t+
> Mig 29K - 12t+
> F 18SH - 14t+
> 
> So M88-2 is not underpowered at all, but offers good thrust for Rafales weight and be trials in India, Brazil, S. Korea, Singapore, or Swiss, the ATLC exercise in the UAE, or the war scenarios in Afghanistan and Libya, thrust was never an issue for Rafale, even with heavy loads and hot climate conditions.
> 
> *Btw, the air chief obviously have to be diplomatic at this stage and in regard to all vendors, that's why he even stated that all 6 fighters were very good and pretty equal, but that doesn't mean IAF would not have preference for one of the them. *


 
maybe underpowered is the wrong word - but you cant deny that it could use a bit more thrust - maybe once the kaveri is is developed we will replace the m 88 with it as some reports seem to suggest or it could also be replaced by the m88-4 eco.
maybe he has a personal favorite but the IAF should be happy with either one( kinda like me - happy with either one but personally prefer the eft )


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## sancho

Jon Snow said:


> but you cant deny that it could use a bit more thrust


 
Why? Is there any real reason, or is is just based on the paper specs in comparison to EF? Didn't Rafale take off from Leh without any problems and with heavy loads and what does it tell you about the engine thrust? 

Don't fall on media, or some forumers speculations about it especially for the wrong reasons, because as I said earlier, it's not about EF specs vs Rafale specs, but which of these fighters fits better into IAF! 
When we only look at such specs, the upgraded MKI should be faster than the EF and has longer range AESA radar as well, so should we conclude that the EF would be not good enough in A2A? Of course not and similarly, only because Rafale has not the speed of the EF, it doesn't mean it is underpowered, or much weaker in A2A. Personally I hope for Kaveri - Snecma engine as well, but not necessarily for additional thrust, but for more customisation with Indian techs and more commonality in the fleets, which would be a big advantage for Rafale in IN as well.


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## angeldemon_007

Eurofighter Typhoon and Dassault Rafale fight to be India's next fighter jet


----------



## saurav

*Hefty Rs 42,000 crore bill for combat aircraft may rise*



> For years, India&#8217;s proposed purchase of 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) --- the world&#8217;s largest overseas fighter buy for which the Typhoon, built by Eurofighter GmbH; and the Rafale, developed by French vendor Dassault, remain in contention --- has been valued at Rs 42,000 crore, almost US $10 billion. Now that valuation is set to rise dramatically as the Ministry of Defence carries out a process called benchmarking.
> 
> Benchmarking is the crucial process of estimating the fair price for any purchase, and is completed before the MoD opens the price bids for any tender. This is done by an MoD committee which scrutinises similar tenders worldwide, especially recent sales, to arrive at a comparable --- or as the name suggests, a benchmark --- price. If all the vendors&#8217; bids emerge significantly higher than the benchmark, the tender is cancelled and the process begun afresh.
> 
> For example, if the MoD committee that is currently benchmarking the MMRCA concludes that Rs 42,000 crore is a decade-old estimation that should be increased due to inflation by 50%, the benchmark for that contract will be pegged at Rs 63,000 crore. When the Eurofighter&#8217;s and Dassault&#8217;s bids are opened, if both turn out to be notably higher, the MoD will scrap the MMRCA tender. On the other hand, if the lower bid is less than or approximates the benchmark, that bid will be accepted.
> 
> The benchmark figure has become crucial for the Typhoon and Rafale, which are acknowledged as the most expensive of the six fighters that competed for the IAF&#8217;s order. Watching from the sidelines and hoping that the procurement falls through are the four aircraft vendors who were eliminated from the MMRCA contest in April: Russia&#8217;s MiG; Sweden&#8217;s Saab; and American companies, Boeing and Lockheed Martin. Two of those vendors have told Business Standard that they believe that Eurofighter&#8217;s and Dassault&#8217;s quotes will be far higher than the benchmark. If they are correct, the long process of obtaining sanctions, tendering, evaluations and field trials will have been fruitless.
> 
> One eliminated contestant sources the Rafale&#8217;s price from the Brazilian media, which has keenly followed the contest between Dassault, Saab and Boeing to sell 36 fighters to the Brazilian Air Force. A detailed story in the Sao Paulo based daily, Folha de S. Paulo, pegs the Rafale bid at US $6.2 billion (plus another US $4 billion for maintenance over the next 30 years, according to the terms of the Brazilian tender). Quoting French sources, the daily reports that the $6.2 billion bid is a discounted price, brought down from $8.2 billion after intense Brazilian pressure on Paris. Extrapolating these figures onto the Indian contract, Dassault&#8217;s quote for 126 MMRCAs could be as much as $20 billion, twice the initially estimated figure.
> 
> Aerospace industry estimations put the cost of the Eurofighter Typhoon about 25% higher than the Rafale. That would put the cost of 126 Typhoons at about $25 billion.
> 
> The Indian price bids, however, involve a different calculation. The South Block tender demands price quotes on a &#8220;life-cycle&#8221; basis, a complex and detailed format that factors in the cost of 126 fighters over their estimated service life of 40 years. Bids are broken down into seven heads --- M-1 to M-7 --- and include the fly-away cost of the fighter; cost of spare parts; operating costs; cost of inspections and maintenance; transfer of technology; and training expenses. The final figure, M-8, is the overall cost, reached by adding up M-1 to M-7.
> 
> Executives from Rafale and Eurofighter agree that Rs 42,000 crore is an outdated price and that the survival of the MMRCA contract now depends upon how much higher the MoD is willing to raise the benchmark.
> 
> &#8220;Rs 42,000 crore was a price estimated a decade ago, and that was for a smaller, single-engine fighter. When you factor inflation, and the fact that India is now buying a heavy, twin-engine fighter, naturally the price will be much higher,&#8221; says a senior executive from one of the vendor companies.
> 
> A keen watcher of these developments is Lockheed Martin, whose F-16IN Super Viper was rejected by the IAF. A visiting Lockheed Martin executive told Business Standard that the fifth-generation F-35 Lightening II would become a real option for India if the MMRCA procurement was scrapped.
> 
> &#8220;We did not offer the F-35 for the MMRCA contract because it exceeded the Indian specifications; the fighter was not yet ready for the kind of flight testing specified in the tender; and because the US government had not yet approved it for release to India to include transfer of technology as specified in the RfP,&#8221; said Orville Prins, Lockheed Martin&#8217;s Vice President for Business Development.
> 
> Six years down the line, these conditions have changed. Prins now points out that, with Lockheed Martin set to build 20 fighters per month, i.e. 240 per year, &#8220;we could be in a position to supply India with its first F-35s by 2016, contingent upon many additional factors including US governmental approval that would affect this timing.&#8221;
> 
> Asked for the cost of the F-35, Lockheed Martin estimates it &#8220;in the mid-60s&#8221;, i.e. somewhere between $60-70 million for the conventional version of the fighter. This would be the cost of a full-up, operational configuration with all the high-tech sensors that are integrated internally in a 5th generation, stealthy aircraft.




I am all in support of F-35A if the delivery starts in 2016. No need to buy pricey European Junks,Which no one is happy about. No one likes Rafale except themselves and Eurofighter's future also seems to be not so bright. We can get a gen. ahead plane in almost same price.
With F-35 we will have assured supply of spare parts and upgrades.

126 of these will create havoc in battlefield. A true omnirole fighter made to rule the sky and deliver the payload without getting detected.


----------



## saurav

*Hefty Rs 42,000 crore bill for combat aircraft may rise*



> For years, Indias proposed purchase of 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) --- the worlds largest overseas fighter buy for which the Typhoon, built by Eurofighter GmbH; and the Rafale, developed by French vendor Dassault, remain in contention --- has been valued at Rs 42,000 crore, almost US $10 billion. Now that valuation is set to rise dramatically as the Ministry of Defence carries out a process called benchmarking.
> 
> Benchmarking is the crucial process of estimating the fair price for any purchase, and is completed before the MoD opens the price bids for any tender. This is done by an MoD committee which scrutinises similar tenders worldwide, especially recent sales, to arrive at a comparable --- or as the name suggests, a benchmark --- price. If all the vendors bids emerge significantly higher than the benchmark, the tender is cancelled and the process begun afresh.
> 
> For example, if the MoD committee that is currently benchmarking the MMRCA concludes that Rs 42,000 crore is a decade-old estimation that should be increased due to inflation by 50%, the benchmark for that contract will be pegged at Rs 63,000 crore. When the Eurofighters and Dassaults bids are opened, if both turn out to be notably higher, the MoD will scrap the MMRCA tender. On the other hand, if the lower bid is less than or approximates the benchmark, that bid will be accepted.
> 
> The benchmark figure has become crucial for the Typhoon and Rafale, which are acknowledged as the most expensive of the six fighters that competed for the IAFs order. Watching from the sidelines and hoping that the procurement falls through are the four aircraft vendors who were eliminated from the MMRCA contest in April: Russias MiG; Swedens Saab; and American companies, Boeing and Lockheed Martin. Two of those vendors have told Business Standard that they believe that Eurofighters and Dassaults quotes will be far higher than the benchmark. If they are correct, the long process of obtaining sanctions, tendering, evaluations and field trials will have been fruitless.
> 
> One eliminated contestant sources the Rafales price from the Brazilian media, which has keenly followed the contest between Dassault, Saab and Boeing to sell 36 fighters to the Brazilian Air Force. A detailed story in the Sao Paulo based daily, Folha de S. Paulo, pegs the Rafale bid at US $6.2 billion (plus another US $4 billion for maintenance over the next 30 years, according to the terms of the Brazilian tender). Quoting French sources, the daily reports that the $6.2 billion bid is a discounted price, brought down from $8.2 billion after intense Brazilian pressure on Paris. Extrapolating these figures onto the Indian contract, Dassaults quote for 126 MMRCAs could be as much as $20 billion, twice the initially estimated figure.
> 
> Aerospace industry estimations put the cost of the Eurofighter Typhoon about 25% higher than the Rafale. That would put the cost of 126 Typhoons at about $25 billion.
> 
> The Indian price bids, however, involve a different calculation. The South Block tender demands price quotes on a life-cycle basis, a complex and detailed format that factors in the cost of 126 fighters over their estimated service life of 40 years. Bids are broken down into seven heads --- M-1 to M-7 --- and include the fly-away cost of the fighter; cost of spare parts; operating costs; cost of inspections and maintenance; transfer of technology; and training expenses. The final figure, M-8, is the overall cost, reached by adding up M-1 to M-7.
> 
> Executives from Rafale and Eurofighter agree that Rs 42,000 crore is an outdated price and that the survival of the MMRCA contract now depends upon how much higher the MoD is willing to raise the benchmark.
> 
> Rs 42,000 crore was a price estimated a decade ago, and that was for a smaller, single-engine fighter. When you factor inflation, and the fact that India is now buying a heavy, twin-engine fighter, naturally the price will be much higher, says a senior executive from one of the vendor companies.
> 
> A keen watcher of these developments is Lockheed Martin, whose F-16IN Super Viper was rejected by the IAF. A visiting Lockheed Martin executive told Business Standard that the fifth-generation F-35 Lightening II would become a real option for India if the MMRCA procurement was scrapped.
> 
> We did not offer the F-35 for the MMRCA contract because it exceeded the Indian specifications; the fighter was not yet ready for the kind of flight testing specified in the tender; and because the US government had not yet approved it for release to India to include transfer of technology as specified in the RfP, said Orville Prins, Lockheed Martins Vice President for Business Development.
> 
> Six years down the line, these conditions have changed. Prins now points out that, with Lockheed Martin set to build 20 fighters per month, i.e. 240 per year, we could be in a position to supply India with its first F-35s by 2016, contingent upon many additional factors including US governmental approval that would affect this timing.
> 
> Asked for the cost of the F-35, Lockheed Martin estimates it in the mid-60s, i.e. somewhere between $60-70 million for the conventional version of the fighter. This would be the cost of a full-up, operational configuration with all the high-tech sensors that are integrated internally in a 5th generation, stealthy aircraft.




I am all in support of F-35A if the delivery starts in 2016. No need to buy pricey European Junks,Which no one is happy about. No one likes Rafale except themselves and Eurofighter's future also seems to be not so bright. We can get a gen. ahead plane in almost same price.
With F-35 we will have assured supply of spare parts and upgrades.

126 of these will create havoc in battlefield. A true omnirole fighter made to rule the sky and deliver the payload without getting detected.


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## RockyX

Rafale producing 12 AC every year which can accelerate to 30 per year. Brazil might also Buy Rafale (but less quantity)

They can deliver some 3 squadron in 3 years only. [But as per Deal only 1 squadron will be delivered and rest will be produced in India by HAL]

By 2014, When we will get Rafale/typhoon Jets. By 2014-2015, We will also Get 4 Squadron of Sukhoi MKI [70-75] with Brahmos equipped + 56 Tejas MK1, Upgradation would be completed for 51 MIRAGE MK2, 69 MIG29SMT........and also 45 MIG29 + 12 tejas for 2 Air Craft Carrier.


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## saurav

> Rafale producing 12 AC every year which can accelerate to 30 per year. Brazil might also Buy Rafale (but less quantity)
> 
> They can deliver some 3 squadron in 3 years only



With new govt. in brazil,Chance of Rafale getting the deal is almost nill. Only customer they have is UAE . Even UAE is also finding it very expensive.


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## Indian-Devil

saurav said:


> *Hefty Rs 42,000 crore bill for combat aircraft may rise*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am all in support of F-35A if the delivery starts in 2016. No need to buy pricey European Junks,Which no one is happy about. No one likes Rafale except themselves and Eurofighter's future also seems to be not so bright. We can get a gen. ahead plane in almost same price.
> With F-35 we will have assured supply of spare parts and upgrades.
> 
> 126 of these will create havoc in battlefield. A true omnirole fighter made to rule the sky and deliver the payload without getting detected.


 
And what about the following points:-
1. ToT, which was still not clear from US govt for even F-16 & F-18, Do you think ToT will be provided for F-35, which will be prime fighter jet for US forces for next 3-4 decades???
2. Price factor, Flyaway cost for F-35 will not be less than 130-140 million dollor
3. Delivery dates, which are still not clear. US & other partner countries are in the list before any new country who try to buy these jets.
4. What abt EFT & Rafael who cleared for next round of selection process and commercial bids are about to be opened by MoD in next few days.
Wishes are wishes buddy but I donot think there are any chances for F-35 for MRCA deal.


----------



## AC&I

Indian-Devil said:


> And what about the following points:-
> 1. ToT, which was still not clear from US govt for even F-16 & F-18, Do you think ToT will be provided for F-35, which will be prime fighter jet for US forces for next 3-4 decades???
> 2. Price factor, Flyaway cost for F-35 will not be less than 130-140 million dollor
> 3. Delivery dates, which are still not clear. US & other partner countries are in the list before any new country who try to buy these jets.
> 4. What abt EFT & Rafael who cleared for next round of selection process and commercial bids are about to be opened by MoD in next few days.
> Wishes are wishes buddy but I donot think there are any chances for F-35 for MRCA deal.


 
I believe Saurav talked about F 35 under the assumption that due to the anticipated benchmark price from MOD, MMRCA deal might eventually get scrapped and that the F 35 might cost around $70 million. But your points 1 & 3 are perfectly valid as far as I am concerned.


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## SpArK

*India given choice to pioneer naval Typhoon jet
​*

LONDON/NEW DELHI: In anticipation of winning the Indian Air Force's $10.4 billion tender for 126 combat jets, European consortium* EADS has offered India a choice to pioneer a project for a naval version of the Eurofighter Typhoon that is in the fray in what is being described as the "mother of all defence deals".*

Typhoon's competitor in the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) tender, the French firm Dassault's Rafale, already has a naval version that is operational on France's lone nuclear-powered aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle.

Officials of BAE Systems, one of the four partner companies in EADS for the Typhoon programme, told IANS during a visit to their RAF Warton production facility in Britain recently that* India can exercise the choice of being a partner nation and leading the programme for the carrier-borne version of the aircraft if it wins the MMRCA tender.* At present, Britain, Italy, Spain and Germany are partners in the Typhoon programme.
According to the BAE Systems officials, the Typhoon, which is a shore-based combat jet, has the potential to be a carrier-borne aircraft, provided a few modifications are made to the aircraft itself, essentially in a ski-jump take-off configuration due to the thrust-vectoring 90 kN (kilo Newton) engine that powers it.
Among the changes, it identifies strengthening of the undercarriage of the aircraft to assist in hard landings on a carrier's deck, fitting a carrier hook for arrested landings, and a good paint coating to help it withstand the vagaries of nature at sea.
The choice of the Typhoon for the Indian Navy the officials said, will complement the experience of operating the British Sea Harrier vertical-landing carrier-borne aircraft on board its lone aircraft carrier, INS Viraat, for over two decades now. Of the nearly 30 Harriers India had got for INS Viraat, only about 10 are left in service, with the rest lost in air crashes.
The offer has been made keeping in mind the Indian Navy's request for information issued in 2009. But the Indian Navy itself is not very amused with the offer.
First, according to officials, the Indian Navy plans to induct the Russian-built Admiral Gorshkov or INS Vikramaditya in the next couple of years. This warship will deploy Russian MiG-29K naval fighter jets and for this, the vessel is being reconfigured into a ski-jump take-off but arrested landing (STOBAR) mode at the Sevmash shipyard in Russia.
The same aircraft will be operated from the flight deck of India's indigenous aircraft carrier, under construction at the Cochin Shipyard, when it is inducted in the middle of this decade. Hence the Indian Navy has placed a total order for 45 MiG-29Ks for the two carriers from Russia.
For the future, the navy wants the Defence Research and Development Organisation's Tejas light combat aircraft's naval variant to fructify. If it does, then it may be the future carrier-borne aircraft of the navy for its two more indigenous aircraft carriers planned for construction at the Cochin Shipyard. But that decision is a long shot as it stands today, according to senior naval aviation officers.
But here is where the EADS, and BAE Systems in particular, is hopeful and is pitching the Typhoons as a powerful STOBAR platform for the future indigenous aircraft carriers of India.


India given choice to pioneer naval Typhoon jet | EADS | | The New Indian Express


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## SpArK

*India given choice to pioneer naval Typhoon jet
​*

LONDON/NEW DELHI: In anticipation of winning the Indian Air Force's $10.4 billion tender for 126 combat jets, European consortium* EADS has offered India a choice to pioneer a project for a naval version of the Eurofighter Typhoon that is in the fray in what is being described as the "mother of all defence deals".*

Typhoon's competitor in the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) tender, the French firm Dassault's Rafale, already has a naval version that is operational on France's lone nuclear-powered aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle.

Officials of BAE Systems, one of the four partner companies in EADS for the Typhoon programme, told IANS during a visit to their RAF Warton production facility in Britain recently that* India can exercise the choice of being a partner nation and leading the programme for the carrier-borne version of the aircraft if it wins the MMRCA tender.* At present, Britain, Italy, Spain and Germany are partners in the Typhoon programme.
According to the BAE Systems officials, the Typhoon, which is a shore-based combat jet, has the potential to be a carrier-borne aircraft, provided a few modifications are made to the aircraft itself, essentially in a ski-jump take-off configuration due to the thrust-vectoring 90 kN (kilo Newton) engine that powers it.
Among the changes, it identifies strengthening of the undercarriage of the aircraft to assist in hard landings on a carrier's deck, fitting a carrier hook for arrested landings, and a good paint coating to help it withstand the vagaries of nature at sea.
The choice of the Typhoon for the Indian Navy the officials said, will complement the experience of operating the British Sea Harrier vertical-landing carrier-borne aircraft on board its lone aircraft carrier, INS Viraat, for over two decades now. Of the nearly 30 Harriers India had got for INS Viraat, only about 10 are left in service, with the rest lost in air crashes.
The offer has been made keeping in mind the Indian Navy's request for information issued in 2009. But the Indian Navy itself is not very amused with the offer.
First, according to officials, the Indian Navy plans to induct the Russian-built Admiral Gorshkov or INS Vikramaditya in the next couple of years. This warship will deploy Russian MiG-29K naval fighter jets and for this, the vessel is being reconfigured into a ski-jump take-off but arrested landing (STOBAR) mode at the Sevmash shipyard in Russia.
The same aircraft will be operated from the flight deck of India's indigenous aircraft carrier, under construction at the Cochin Shipyard, when it is inducted in the middle of this decade. Hence the Indian Navy has placed a total order for 45 MiG-29Ks for the two carriers from Russia.
For the future, the navy wants the Defence Research and Development Organisation's Tejas light combat aircraft's naval variant to fructify. If it does, then it may be the future carrier-borne aircraft of the navy for its two more indigenous aircraft carriers planned for construction at the Cochin Shipyard. But that decision is a long shot as it stands today, according to senior naval aviation officers.
But here is where the EADS, and BAE Systems in particular, is hopeful and is pitching the Typhoons as a powerful STOBAR platform for the future indigenous aircraft carriers of India.


India given choice to pioneer naval Typhoon jet | EADS | | The New Indian Express


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## sancho

SpArK said:


> *India given choice to pioneer naval Typhoon jet
> ​*


 
They"generously" giving us the participation, or even the lead in the development of an Eurofighter, that nobody else wants and where they don't have to pay for.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## angeldemon_007

^^^
Yeah they wanna build this fighter with our money and then sell it in world market.


----------



## ULTRAVIOLET

For years, India's proposed purchase of 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) -- the world's largest overseas fighter buy for which the Typhoon, built by Eurofighter GmbH; and the Rafale, developed by French vendor Dassault, remain in contention --- has been valued at Rs 42,000 crore, almost US $10 billion.

Now that valuation is set to rise dramatically, as the Ministry of Defence carries out a process called benchmarking.

Benchmarking is the crucial process of estimating the fair price for any purchase, and is completed before the MoD opens the price bids for any tender.

This is done by an MoD committee which scrutinises similar tenders worldwide, especially recent sales, to arrive at a comparable --- or as the name suggests, a benchmark --- price.

If all the vendors' bids emerge significantly higher than the benchmark, the tender is cancelled and the process begun afresh.
For example, if the MoD committee that is currently benchmarking the MMRCA concludes that Rs 42,000 crore is a decade-old estimation that should be increased due to inflation by 50 per cent, the benchmark for that contract will be pegged at Rs 63,000 crore.

When the Eurofighter's and Dassault's bids are opened, if both turn out to be notably higher, the MoD will scrap the MMRCA tender.

On the other hand, if the lower bid is less than or approximates the benchmark, that bid will be accepted.

The benchmark figure has become crucial for the Typhoon and Rafale, which are acknowledged as the most expensive of the six fighters that competed for the IAF's order.
Watching from the sidelines and hoping that the procurement falls through are the four aircraft vendors who were eliminated from the MMRCA contest in April: Russia's MiG; Sweden's Saab; and American companies, Boeing and Lockheed Martin.

Two of those vendors have told Business Standard that they believe that Eurofighter's and Dassault's quotes will be far higher than the benchmark.

If they are correct, the long process of obtaining sanctions, tendering, evaluations and field trials will have been fruitless.

One eliminated contestant sources the Rafale's price from the Brazilian media, which has keenly followed the contest between Dassault, Saab and Boeing to sell 36 fighters to the Brazilian Air Force. 
A detailed story in the Sao Paulo-based daily, Folha de S Paulo, pegs the Rafale bid at US $6.2 billion (plus another US $4 billion for maintenance over the next 30 years, according to the terms of the Brazilian tender).

Quoting French sources, the daily reports that the $6.2 billion bid is a discounted price, brought down from $8.2 billion after intense Brazilian pressure on Paris. Extrapolating these figures onto the Indian contract, Dassault's quote for 126 MMRCAs could be as much as $20 billion, twice the initially estimated figure.

Aerospace industry estimations put the cost of the Eurofighter Typhoon about 25 per cent higher than the Rafale. That would put the cost of 126 Typhoons at about $25 billion.

The Indian price bids, however, involve a different calculation. The South Block tender demands price quotes on a "life-cycle" basis, a complex and detailed format that factors in the cost of 126 fighters over their estimated service life of 40 years.
Bids are broken down into seven heads --- M-1 to M-7 --- and include the fly-away cost of the fighter; cost of spare parts; operating costs; cost of inspections and maintenance; transfer of technology; and training expenses. The final figure, M-8, is the overall cost, reached by adding up M-1 to M-7.

Executives from Rafale and Eurofighter agree that Rs 42,000 crore is an outdated price and that the survival of the MMRCA contract now depends upon how much higher the MoD is willing to raise the benchmark.

"Rs 42,000 crore was a price estimated a decade ago, and that was for a smaller, single-engine fighter. When you factor inflation, and the fact that India is now buying a heavy, twin-engine fighter, naturally the price will be much higher," says a senior executive from one of the vendor companies.

A keen watcher of these developments is Lockheed Martin, whose F-16IN Super Viper was rejected by the IAF. A visiting Lockheed Martin executive told Business Standard that the fifth-generation F-35 Lightening II would become a real option for India if the MMRCA procurement was scrapped.
"We did not offer the F-35 for the MMRCA contract because it exceeded the Indian specifications; the fighter was not yet ready for the kind of flight testing specified in the tender; and because the US government had not yet approved it for release to India to include transfer of technology as specified in the RfP," said Orville Prins, Lockheed Martin's Vice President for Business Development.

Six years down the line, these conditions have changed. Prins now points out that, with Lockheed Martin set to build 20 fighters per month, i.e. 240 per year, "we could be in a position to supply India with its first F-35s by 2016, contingent upon many additional factors, including US governmental approval that would affect this timing."

Asked for the cost of the F-35, Lockheed Martin estimates it "in the mid-60s", i.e. somewhere between $60-70 million for the conventional version of the fighter.

This would be the cost of a full-up, operational configuration with all the high-tech sensors that are integrated internally in a 5th generation, stealthy aircraft. Added to this cost would be the added expenses of training, technology transfer (ToT), manufacturing infrastructure, etc, which would significantly raise the overall cost of buying 126 F-35s.
Mother of all weapon deals is set to get costlier - Rediff.com News


----------



## ULTRAVIOLET

For years, India's proposed purchase of 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) -- the world's largest overseas fighter buy for which the Typhoon, built by Eurofighter GmbH; and the Rafale, developed by French vendor Dassault, remain in contention --- has been valued at Rs 42,000 crore, almost US $10 billion.

Now that valuation is set to rise dramatically, as the Ministry of Defence carries out a process called benchmarking.

Benchmarking is the crucial process of estimating the fair price for any purchase, and is completed before the MoD opens the price bids for any tender.

This is done by an MoD committee which scrutinises similar tenders worldwide, especially recent sales, to arrive at a comparable --- or as the name suggests, a benchmark --- price.

If all the vendors' bids emerge significantly higher than the benchmark, the tender is cancelled and the process begun afresh.
For example, if the MoD committee that is currently benchmarking the MMRCA concludes that Rs 42,000 crore is a decade-old estimation that should be increased due to inflation by 50 per cent, the benchmark for that contract will be pegged at Rs 63,000 crore.

When the Eurofighter's and Dassault's bids are opened, if both turn out to be notably higher, the MoD will scrap the MMRCA tender.

On the other hand, if the lower bid is less than or approximates the benchmark, that bid will be accepted.

The benchmark figure has become crucial for the Typhoon and Rafale, which are acknowledged as the most expensive of the six fighters that competed for the IAF's order.
Watching from the sidelines and hoping that the procurement falls through are the four aircraft vendors who were eliminated from the MMRCA contest in April: Russia's MiG; Sweden's Saab; and American companies, Boeing and Lockheed Martin.

Two of those vendors have told Business Standard that they believe that Eurofighter's and Dassault's quotes will be far higher than the benchmark.

If they are correct, the long process of obtaining sanctions, tendering, evaluations and field trials will have been fruitless.

One eliminated contestant sources the Rafale's price from the Brazilian media, which has keenly followed the contest between Dassault, Saab and Boeing to sell 36 fighters to the Brazilian Air Force. 
A detailed story in the Sao Paulo-based daily, Folha de S Paulo, pegs the Rafale bid at US $6.2 billion (plus another US $4 billion for maintenance over the next 30 years, according to the terms of the Brazilian tender).

Quoting French sources, the daily reports that the $6.2 billion bid is a discounted price, brought down from $8.2 billion after intense Brazilian pressure on Paris. Extrapolating these figures onto the Indian contract, Dassault's quote for 126 MMRCAs could be as much as $20 billion, twice the initially estimated figure.

Aerospace industry estimations put the cost of the Eurofighter Typhoon about 25 per cent higher than the Rafale. That would put the cost of 126 Typhoons at about $25 billion.

The Indian price bids, however, involve a different calculation. The South Block tender demands price quotes on a "life-cycle" basis, a complex and detailed format that factors in the cost of 126 fighters over their estimated service life of 40 years.
Bids are broken down into seven heads --- M-1 to M-7 --- and include the fly-away cost of the fighter; cost of spare parts; operating costs; cost of inspections and maintenance; transfer of technology; and training expenses. The final figure, M-8, is the overall cost, reached by adding up M-1 to M-7.

Executives from Rafale and Eurofighter agree that Rs 42,000 crore is an outdated price and that the survival of the MMRCA contract now depends upon how much higher the MoD is willing to raise the benchmark.

"Rs 42,000 crore was a price estimated a decade ago, and that was for a smaller, single-engine fighter. When you factor inflation, and the fact that India is now buying a heavy, twin-engine fighter, naturally the price will be much higher," says a senior executive from one of the vendor companies.

A keen watcher of these developments is Lockheed Martin, whose F-16IN Super Viper was rejected by the IAF. A visiting Lockheed Martin executive told Business Standard that the fifth-generation F-35 Lightening II would become a real option for India if the MMRCA procurement was scrapped.
"We did not offer the F-35 for the MMRCA contract because it exceeded the Indian specifications; the fighter was not yet ready for the kind of flight testing specified in the tender; and because the US government had not yet approved it for release to India to include transfer of technology as specified in the RfP," said Orville Prins, Lockheed Martin's Vice President for Business Development.

Six years down the line, these conditions have changed. Prins now points out that, with Lockheed Martin set to build 20 fighters per month, i.e. 240 per year, "we could be in a position to supply India with its first F-35s by 2016, contingent upon many additional factors, including US governmental approval that would affect this timing."

Asked for the cost of the F-35, Lockheed Martin estimates it "in the mid-60s", i.e. somewhere between $60-70 million for the conventional version of the fighter.

This would be the cost of a full-up, operational configuration with all the high-tech sensors that are integrated internally in a 5th generation, stealthy aircraft. Added to this cost would be the added expenses of training, technology transfer (ToT), manufacturing infrastructure, etc, which would significantly raise the overall cost of buying 126 F-35s.
Mother of all weapon deals is set to get costlier - Rediff.com News


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## razgriz19

too much Typhoon news^^
time to enjoy some Rafale! lol

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Vibs

*Rafale will come with full ToT*
Paris. French aircraft maker Dassault says that its Rafale would come with full technology transfers to India.





Executive Vice President International Eric Trappier told India Strategic that Dassault was hopeful of winning the Indian Air Force (IAF) competition for 126-plus Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) and that the company would have no hesitation in transferring the &#8220;best onboard technologies, both for IAF and Indian Navy if the latter opted for it also for its future aircraft carriers.&#8221;
He and his team were in regular touch with the Indian Ministry of Defence (MoD), and like the other rival in the MMRCA competition, he was waiting for the commercial bids to open. He was sure, he said, that Rafale would be economical and cheaper than the competition in the short and long run. &#8220;We have had a long relationship with India spanning 50 years and we want this to be longer.&#8221;
Trappier was also hopeful of the Mirage 2000 upgrade contract to be signed soon. Although most of the upgradation would be done by the technology company Thales, the aircraft were originally sold by Dassault, which now has a substantial stake in Thales.
After the upgradation, the Mirage 2000 would be as good as new Mirage 2005 aircraft, possibly with some better technologies than before.
Thales is providing Electronic Warfare (EW) suites, combat radars, displays, helmet mounted cueing systems and some of the weapons for both the Mirage and Rafale. The latter though would have the advantage of modern AESA radars and possibly Ultra Violet or Infra Red Search and Track (UV or IR ST) systems for well Beyond the Visual Range (BVR) engagement and neutralization of hostile targets.




These systems would be compatible with most of the precision weapons.
On offer is also the latest Air to Air Meteor missile developed by MBDA.
Rafale was also stated to have lower radar signature due to the integration of its engine intakes with the body. &#8220;If you look at it from the front, it is like a bird with natural contours, not extruding inlets.&#8221; And the aircraft would have less fuel consumption than others, which would both be economical and strategic in war time, when fuel supplies are invariably in short supplies.
Trappier described the Rafale as an omni role fighter, and said that it was the only aircraft already operating both from land and sea and that its capabilities had been demonstrated both to the IAF and Indian Navy. France&#8217;s only aircraft carrier, Charles de Gaulle, had done exercises with the Indian Navy and also visited Mumbai recently.
Asked about the combat radars and weapons, he pointed out that Dassault&#8217;s associate company Thales had already developed and validated the RBE2 AESA (Active Electronically Scanned Array) radar and &#8220;it would be on board the aircraft ordered by India well in time.&#8221;
In fact, there would be other systems and weapons which would also be delivered to the IAF to its satisfaction.
Asked about reports that some of the weapons were available only with the US companies, like the Raytheon High Speed Anti Radiation Missile (HARM), and that even if a company was willing to sell them, the approval would have to still from the US Government, Trappier said that he was hopeful that there would be no problem.
Notably, all the six contestants in the MMRCA fray had promised to meet all the IAF requirements.
There would have to be some diplomatic intervention perhaps at a later stage between the winner and its country/ countries of manufacture as well as the US to secure this arrangement. Maybe India&#8217;s goodwill will play a role irrespective of which of the two finalists bags the world&#8217;s biggest aircraft order yet.
Indications are that New Delhi would order nearly 200 aircraft, 126 as per the tender, and 63 mentioned in the option clause.
And perhaps more.
..:: India Strategic ::. Rafale will come with fill ToT

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## ziaulislam

if india goes for 200 aircrafts the deal could well be beyond 20 billion dollars


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## Tija

ziaulislam said:


> if india goes for 200 aircrafts the deal could well be beyond 20 billion dollars



Yes It is.


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## kingdurgaking

Vibs said:


> *Rafale will come with full ToT*
> Paris. French aircraft maker Dassault says that its Rafale would come with full technology transfers to India.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Executive Vice President International Eric Trappier told India Strategic that Dassault was hopeful of winning the Indian Air Force (IAF) competition for 126-plus Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) and that the company would have no hesitation in transferring the &#8220;best onboard technologies, both for IAF and Indian Navy if the latter opted for it also for its future aircraft carriers.&#8221;
> He and his team were in regular touch with the Indian Ministry of Defence (MoD), and like the other rival in the MMRCA competition, he was waiting for the commercial bids to open. He was sure, he said, that Rafale would be economical and cheaper than the competition in the short and long run. &#8220;We have had a long relationship with India spanning 50 years and we want this to be longer.&#8221;
> Trappier was also hopeful of the Mirage 2000 upgrade contract to be signed soon. Although most of the upgradation would be done by the technology company Thales, the aircraft were originally sold by Dassault, which now has a substantial stake in Thales.
> After the upgradation, the Mirage 2000 would be as good as new Mirage 2005 aircraft, possibly with some better technologies than before.
> Thales is providing Electronic Warfare (EW) suites, combat radars, displays, helmet mounted cueing systems and some of the weapons for both the Mirage and Rafale. The latter though would have the advantage of modern AESA radars and possibly Ultra Violet or Infra Red Search and Track (UV or IR ST) systems for well Beyond the Visual Range (BVR) engagement and neutralization of hostile targets.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These systems would be compatible with most of the precision weapons.
> On offer is also the latest Air to Air Meteor missile developed by MBDA.
> Rafale was also stated to have lower radar signature due to the integration of its engine intakes with the body. &#8220;If you look at it from the front, it is like a bird with natural contours, not extruding inlets.&#8221; And the aircraft would have less fuel consumption than others, which would both be economical and strategic in war time, when fuel supplies are invariably in short supplies.
> Trappier described the Rafale as an omni role fighter, and said that it was the only aircraft already operating both from land and sea and that its capabilities had been demonstrated both to the IAF and Indian Navy. France&#8217;s only aircraft carrier, Charles de Gaulle, had done exercises with the Indian Navy and also visited Mumbai recently.
> Asked about the combat radars and weapons, he pointed out that Dassault&#8217;s associate company Thales had already developed and validated the RBE2 AESA (Active Electronically Scanned Array) radar and &#8220;it would be on board the aircraft ordered by India well in time.&#8221;
> In fact, there would be other systems and weapons which would also be delivered to the IAF to its satisfaction.
> Asked about reports that some of the weapons were available only with the US companies, like the Raytheon High Speed Anti Radiation Missile (HARM), and that even if a company was willing to sell them, the approval would have to still from the US Government, Trappier said that he was hopeful that there would be no problem.
> Notably, all the six contestants in the MMRCA fray had promised to meet all the IAF requirements.
> There would have to be some diplomatic intervention perhaps at a later stage between the winner and its country/ countries of manufacture as well as the US to secure this arrangement. Maybe India&#8217;s goodwill will play a role irrespective of which of the two finalists bags the world&#8217;s biggest aircraft order yet.
> Indications are that New Delhi would order nearly 200 aircraft, 126 as per the tender, and 63 mentioned in the option clause.
> And perhaps more.
> ..:: India Strategic ::. Rafale will come with fill ToT


 
Finally Rafale opened there mouth.. this would be a blow to EFT


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## Vibs

ziaulislam said:


> if india goes for 200 aircrafts the deal could well be beyond 20 billion dollars


 
I don't think there is an if for the option for 200 aircrafts. The if is for the additional aircraft that could be ordered over and above the 200.


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## Bang Galore

Vibs said:


> *Asked about reports that some of the weapons were available only with the US companies, like the Raytheon High Speed Anti Radiation Missile (HARM), and that even if a company was willing to sell them, the approval would have to still from the US Governm*ent, Trappier said that he was *hopeful *that there would be no problem.
> Notably, all the six contestants in the MMRCA fray had promised to meet all the IAF requirements.
> *There would have to be some diplomatic intervention perhaps at a later stage between the winner and its country/ countries of manufacture as well as the US to secure this arrangement.* Maybe India&#8217;s goodwill will play a role irrespective of which of the two finalists bags the world&#8217;s biggest aircraft order yet.


 
*A-ha*, so much for all the U.S. haters. Seems that the French too are *"hopeful"* that there will be no problems. Seems we still need to separately negotiate with the U.S.All the talk about how by selecting the French, we were escaping from U.S. clutches seems to be just a mirage. We still need the U.S. it seems, only our leverage is much reduced now.

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## SQ8

Bang Galore said:


> *A-ha*, so much for all the U.S. haters. Seems that the French too are *"hopeful"* that there will be no problems. Seems we still need to separately negotiate with the U.S.All the talk about how by selecting the French, we were escaping from U.S. clutches seems to be just a mirage. We still need the U.S. it seems, only our leverage is much reduced now.


 
Doesn't MBDA hold a stake in the ALARM missile??
That can be offered instead of the HARM.


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## Raje amar

Bang Galore said:


> *A-ha*, so much for all the U.S. haters. Seems that the French too are *"hopeful"* that there will be no problems. Seems we still need to separately negotiate with the U.S.All the talk about how by selecting the French, we were escaping from U.S. clutches seems to be just a mirage. We still need the U.S. it seems, only our leverage is much reduced now.


 
it did not mean what you say. it just mean there are few wepons those are of US origin and can also operate from Rafale. you have a choice either you can choose French wepons, US wepons or you have the source code of the raders, design a missile yourself & use it from Rafale like Astra.
but no US spares so that can block the supply to have liverage on you.

as simple as that.


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## Bang Galore

Raje amar said:


> it did not mean what you say. it just mean there are few wepons those are of US origin and can also operate from Rafale. you have a choice either you can choose French wepons, US wepons or you have the source code of the raders, design a missile yourself & use it from Rafale like Astra.
> but no US spares so that can block the supply to have liverage on you.
> 
> as simple as that.


 
Actually it pretty much means what I said. If India were to only operate French missiles & bombs, pretty soon the IAF would be bankrupt & then the planes would be as unusable as if we were sanctioned. C'mon man, the French didn't even want to integrate Israeli weapons on the M2k & got their way with the GoI.


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## angeldemon_007

Engines and radar to blame for MiG-35 failure in MMRCA contest


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## praveen007

Engines and radar to blame for MiG-35 failure in MMRCA contest
.
Radar and engine performance
shortcomings were to blame
for the MiG-35 failing to make the shortlist in
India's medium multi-role combat aircraft
(MMRCA) contest.
The revelations are contained in feedback from
India to Russia's arms export agency,
Rosboronexport.
The MiG-35's radar, the Zhuk-MAE active
electronically scanned array (AESA), from Russia's
Phazotron, failed to achieve the required
acquisition and tracking ranges. And its Klimov
RD-33MK engines also fell short of the Indian
performance criteria.
Speaking to the media on 3 August, Vladimir
Barkovsky, chief of MiG's engineering centre, said:
"The Klimov and Chernyshev [engine companies]
briefed [India] at length about their capabilities and
intentions to improve their offering, but
unfortunately their arguments were not taken into
account."
Despite this, the same RD-33MK met Indian navy
requirements and powers the newly-built
MiG-29K/KUB fighters being delivered to the
service.
Barkovsky also defended the Zhuk-MAE AESA
radar, pointing out that the prototype nature of
the model fitted to the MiG-35 meant that it did
not meet the tender specifications, particularly
regarding range.
He said: "We told the tender committee that this
particular unit is experimental, and that in future
we will make a larger radar antenna [capable of
being used at a longer range]."
Barkovsky pointed out that the Eurofighter
Typhoon is yet to be fitted with a working AESA
radar.
"While the Russians demonstrated their radar
fitted to the real fighter and working, [Eurofighter]
demonstrated their radar on a helicopter," he
said.
"The positive outcome of the Indian tender is that
we made a huge effort on the radar development
and demonstrated what nobody expected of us,
and thus surprised many, including some in our
home country." Barkovsky added.
The company will continue the MiG-35 project, he
said, and look for other export .


----------



## the rafter

> *French Rafale jet deal with UAE seen by year-end-report*
> Aug 5 (Reuters) - Negotiations have resumed to sell Dassault Aviation's Rafale fighterjets to the United Arab Emirates, and a deal could be sealed between September and the end of the year, French daily La Tribune said on Friday.
> 
> Dassault Aviation could not immediately be reached for comment.
> Last month, French Defence Minister Gerard Longuet said the United Arab Emirates was France's best bet in the short term for clinching an export deal for the Rafale.
> The French company has still not found a foreign buyer for the multi-role Rafale, billed as one of the most effective but also one of the most expensive fighter jets in the world. (Reporting by Dominique Vidalon; Editing by Will Waterman)


French Rafale jet deal with UAE seen by year-end-report | Reuters


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## jha

a rafale costs 8.5 Bill/63 = 135 Mill. a piece to 11.33 Bill/63 = 180 Mill...


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## Lord Of Gondor

jha said:


> a rafale costs 8.5 Bill/63 = 135 Mill. a piece to 11.33 Bill/63 = 180 Mill...


 The price breakup seems to be like
60 million USD for Plane
the rest is for the French Flair!
I still believe that we should have gone with JAS 39 Gripen.Common engine with the Tejas,produced by a company based in a fellow NAM country and cheap!


----------



## Yeti

That price includes the missiles too! not only the Rafale jet


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## Raje amar

Bharadwaj said:


> The price breakup seems to be like
> 60 million USD for Plane
> the rest is for the French Flair!
> I still believe that we should have gone with JAS 39 Gripen.Common engine with the Tejas,produced by a company based in a fellow NAM country and cheap!



85 mil per piece flyaway cost,
also India is asking for the life time support of spares & training with facility. This will definately raise the cost a piece to at least 130 mil. 
We are forgetting that the 10 bil cost was approved around 7 years back taking in to consideration the infletion the contract cost will touch 20 bil to current cost.
Most of these deals do not include wepons which we have to pay over & above the contract cost.
So in totality the final spending on MMRCA will be around 26 bil..,.,.......


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## AC&I

Raje amar said:


> 85 mil per piece flyaway cost,
> also India is asking for the life time support of spares & training with facility. This will definately raise the cost a piece to at least 130 mil.
> We are forgetting that the 10 bil cost was approved around 7 years back taking in to consideration the infletion the contract cost will touch 20 bil to current cost.
> Most of these deals do not include wepons which we have to pay over & above the contract cost.
> So in totality the final spending on MMRCA will be around 26 bil..,.,.......


 
With the discussions so far IMO the trend seems to be towards purchase of Rafale. We might end up paying in excess of at least $20 billion (could end up being a lot more than it). Does anyone has specifics of how the ToT might help the current LCA and the prospective MCA program with this Rafale purchase with the given terms of references in the contract discounting any subsequent required contracts.


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## sancho

Bang Galore said:


> Actually it pretty much means what I said. If India were to only operate French missiles & bombs, pretty soon the IAF would be bankrupt & then the planes would be as unusable as if we were sanctioned. C'mon man, the French didn't even want to integrate Israeli weapons on the M2k & got their way with the GoI.


 
It actually means that the Rafale can generally use other NATO weapons as well, if there would be a necessity (Rafale is doing SEAD with AASM)! Rafale already uses US Paveway LGBs and is evaluating Lockheed Martins Scalpel LGB as an addition to it's weapon package as well. If the US approves other US weapons and the French, or an export customer wants another weapon, there is no problem with integrating it and keep in mind that there were reports about the UAE asking for integration of SLAM-ER on Rafale too, which imo would be great for India as well.
Also since no US fighter was shortlisted anyway, it doesn't make much sense in saying French weapons, because the important weapons on Rafale and EF will be the same, no matter which one India will choose:

BVR missile - METEOR
LGB - Paveway, or Sudharshan
Cruise missile - Storm Shadow / Scalp
ATGM - possibly Brimstone

The only difference comes in the WVR missle field, where the EF is also offered with European missiles and not cheaper US counterparts. AASM is offered for Rafale as well, but has no counterpart on the EF so far and it falls between a bomb and a missile, which makes it more capable, but also more costly than normal bomb kits, but IAF will procure these only in addition to the normal LGBs. If the upgraded Mirage even gets MICA, AASM and Scalp, the weapon commonality will make it even cheaper to operate Rafale than EF. 
Btw, when did the French rejected the integration of Israeli weapons? Greek air force procured the Israeli SPICE PGM for their Mirage 2000s now and IAF is evaluating the same, next to AASM for the same fighters. Not to forget that we customised the M2Ks during Kargil war with Israeli help and neither the French government, nor Dassault had any objections about it. 




jha said:


> a rafale costs 8.5 Bill/63 = 135 Mill. a piece to 11.33 Bill/63 = 180 Mill...


 
First of all, the UAE Rafale will be more capable than the one offered in MMRCA!
Secondly, the want lower numbers, which increases the costs per unit!
Thirdly, that's the systemprice which is different for any country, because it will include different numbers of spares, weapons...!

All these things makes the UAE costs not really interesting in regard to MMRCA, while numbers (especially flyaway costs) from Brazil, or Swiss, where the same version was offered makes more sense.


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## Jon Snow

wasnt there news that the mod was reviewing the price of mmrca?? The new price is 63000 crore(14.3 billion). So mod is actually willing to pay 113 million per plane - doesnt this rule out the eft as its price is quoted as 125 million????


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## sancho

Jon Snow said:


> wasnt there news that the mod was reviewing the price of mmrca?? The new price is 63000 crore(14.3 billion). So mod is actually willing to pay 113 million per plane - doesnt this rule out the eft as its price is quoted as 125 million????


 
You mean the Ajay Shukla article about F35 right? But you can't take him seriously, he came up with F35 throughout the whole MMRCA competition and his figures are more than questionable. However, IAF/MoD knew about the costs when they shortlisted the 2 most expensive fighters and here the side advantages that comes with these fighter justyfies the expense.

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## SpArK

*New Gripen Ad For MMRCA Says A Lot​*








This very interesting advert for the Gripen NG appears in the current edition of India's biggest news magazine, India Today. *It says a lot of things. One, it appears three months after the Gripen was officially eliminated from the Indian MMRCA competition. Two, and more interestingly, Saab's creative concept has shifted away from simply highlighting the Gripen's virtues (also of "autonomy" and "independence"), and now takes a direct shot at the two finalists in the competition -- the Eurofighter Typhoon and Dassault Rafale -- on cost and stated capability. In short, Saab believes it still has a chance, and this fight isn't finished. *

In one part, the advert says, *"Performance counts when aircraft are in the air, defending the skies. Unfortunately, too many fighter aircraft are either sitting on the ground because they are too expensive to fly or simply do not have the capabilities that they were touted to have." Ouch. 
*

Also, "[The Gripen IN] has taken the essential philosophy behind the Gripen to the next level, making it a fighter of the latest generation priced at less than half of its peers and operating at a fraction of the cost." The folks at Saab know all too well how delicate the next step in the MMRCA selection will be -- the opening of bids and toss-ups against a benchmark price, understood to be ready and defined. 

It gets better. The ad goes on the declare* "Today, India has a choice". Hmm, yep -- between the Typhoon and Rafale, right? Well, there's nothing official about it, but it's been rumoured for a while that the four companies that were eliminated three months ago from the Indian MMRCA fighter competition (including Saab), have been "asked" to stick around in the country. The applicability of the aphorism "it ain't over, till it's over"* to Indian defence contracting has much to do with what some see as a track that runs parallel to the ongoing selection process. A track that appears to internalize the possibility of complete chaos.

Livefist: New Gripen Ad For MMRCA Says A Lot


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## jha

> but it's been rumoured for a while that the four companies that were eliminated three months ago from the Indian MMRCA fighter competition (including Saab), have been "asked" to stick around in the country.



Best part...Gripen or, F/A-18 ...Good aircraft at affordable price...


----------



## DarK-LorD

This mega thread can closed by the end of this year.Then we will have EFt or Rafale news & discussions.


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## tvsram1992

jha said:


> Best part...Gripen or, F/A-18 ...Good aircraft at affordable price...


 Mig35,Mig Skat,F-16IN,Tejas Mk2,Mig1.44 and Su35 are more easily affordable.


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## SpArK

tvsram1992 said:


> Mig35,Mig Skat,F-16IN,Tejas Mk2,Mig1.44 and Su35 are more easily affordable.


 
Less Capable.
Non existent
Similar option available.


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## tvsram1992

SpArK said:


> Less Capable.
> Non existent
> Similar option available.


 When Mig29's of our AF are capable, and even Jf-17 is capable , Why not Mig35?
Mig Skat exists and LCA Mk2 is confirmed,There are plans to develop LWF based on Mig1.44.
Su35 comes with better features. There is no need to explain you how rcs makes a difference b/w mki and Su35.

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## Abingdonboy

tvsram1992 said:


> When Mig29's of our AF are capable, and even Jf-17 is capable , Why not Mig35?
> Mig Skat exists and LCA Mk2 is confirmed,There are plans to develop LWF based on Mig1.44.
> Su35 comes with better features. There is no need to explain you how rcs makes a difference b/w mki and Su35.


 
Listen, the IAF is a throughly professional and competent organisation who knows what they want. Now that finances are not such an issue they can get the best and most compatible tom their needs. Now if the IAF has down selected the MIG 35, F-16IN, Gripen And F-18IN then that is their prerogative and I trust they have done so for the correct reasons.

And there is no bloody point in IAF operating SU-35 AND MKI. The IAF has thrown its hat in with the MKI and has committed SIGNIFICANT finances and resources to this platform and its success in the IAF. the MKI fits in with the IAF's doctrine (twin seat) and has significant scope for UPGs which the IAF is pushing for aggressively ("SUPER" UPG).


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## sancho

tvsram1992 said:


> When Mig29's of our AF are capable, and even Jf-17 is capable , Why not Mig35?
> Mig Skat exists and LCA Mk2 is confirmed,There are plans to develop LWF based on Mig1.44.
> Su35 comes with better features. There is no need to explain you how rcs makes a difference b/w mki and Su35.


 
Spark is right, because you have to compare it the the shortlisted fighters and the aims of MMRCA. Neither Mig 29/35, nor JF 17 are comparable, Mig Skat is totally different and is only a tech demo so far, LCA MK2 is a long shot, especially with the latest news of more delays in the radar development...and except of the single seat config, there is nothing on the Su 35, that the MKI couldn't have.
The point is, this is not just a 1 on 1 fighter replacement, but a chance to get more technical, industrial and political advantages and especially the Russian fighters are the wrong choice here, because we already have the best what they can offer with MKI and FGFA. The US fighters were rejected mainly because the lack of ToT and restrictions that they pose on export customers, while Rafale and EF offers exactly the opposite and were prefered. That's why we don't pay lets say $100 million for a fighter only, but for the fighter + tot + source codes + high offsets + co-developments, or partnerships + no restrictions +...
A cheaper unit cost alone doesn't mean that we get the most in return for our money!

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## tvsram1992

sancho said:


> Spark is right, because you have to compare it the the shortlisted fighters and the aims of MMRCA. Neither Mig 29/35, nor JF 17 are comparable, Mig Skat is totally different and is only a tech demo so far, LCA MK2 is a long shot, especially with the latest news of more delays in the radar development...and except of the single seat config, there is nothing on the Su 35, that the MKI couldn't have.
> The point is, this is not just a 1 on 1 fighter replacement, but a chance to get more technical, industrial and political advantages and especially the Russian fighters are the wrong choice here, because we already have the best what they can offer with MKI and FGFA. The US fighters were rejected mainly because the lack of ToT and restrictions that they pose on export customers, while Rafale and EF offers exactly the opposite and were prefered. That's why we don't pay lets say $100 million for a fighter only, but for the fighter + tot + source codes + high offsets + co-developments, or partnerships + no restrictions +...
> A cheaper unit cost alone doesn't mean that we get the most in return for our money!


 That is a relative post , a reply to Gripen/F-18 to India.
Ya spark is right but it doesnt mean only mrca is final.
Every one trying again , US with f35,gripen,LWF project with russia...

Su35 has reduced rcs when compared to mki.


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## sancho

tvsram1992 said:


> That is a relative post , a reply to Gripen/F-18 to India.
> Ya spark is right but it doesnt mean only mrca is final.
> Every one trying again , US with f35,gripen,LWF project with russia...
> 
> Su35 has reduced rcs when compared to mki.


 
It has to, because Rafale and EF was shortlisted according to our requirements, so IAF/MoD don't think that the others suits them and that at least one of these 2 will be the final solution.

Su 35 has lreduced the RCS with the addition of more composite and RAM materials and deleting of the canards and except of the latter, the rest can be done with MKI as well, if it wasn't already during the licence production.


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## tvsram1992

Abingdonboy said:


> Listen, the IAF is a throughly professional and competent organisation *who knows what they want*. Now that finances are not such an issue they can get the best and most compatible tom their needs. Now if the IAF has down selected the MIG 35, F-16IN, Gripen And F-18IN then that is their prerogative and I trust they have done so for the correct reasons.
> 
> And there is no bloody point in IAF operating SU-35 AND MKI. The IAF has thrown its hat in with the MKI and has committed SIGNIFICANT finances and resources to this platform and its success in the IAF. the MKI fits in with the IAF's doctrine (twin seat) and has significant scope for UPGs which the IAF is pushing for aggressively ("SUPER" UPG).


 IAF knows what they want.
But there are some other players
Else the following would not happened
1.Not retiring Mig21's
2.Killing of Marut
3.Late procurement of MRCA
4.Not choosing the best UAV available
5.Going for Mirage upgrade
6.No future plans for Jaguar and Mig27 replacement till AMCA is done.
7.Delay in Kaveri, obviously LCA
8.Not going for more AWACS/Transport systems

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## tvsram1992

sancho said:


> It has to, because Rafale and EF was shortlisted according to our requirements, so IAF/MoD don't think that the others suits them and that at least one of these 2 will be the final solution.
> 
> Su 35 has lreduced the RCS with the addition of more composite and RAM materials and deleting of the canards and except of the latter, the rest can be done with MKI as well, if it wasn't already during the licence production.


 
Yes definetly the winner would be rafale/eft
If it could be done with mki, we could have already done it by now.
Russia will nt feel much if we make change in licence production protocols, as we are buying 300 mki's.
Deleting the canards will not make rcs reduced rapidly.
By the way the ratio of rcs is 15 to 12) in clean configuration.


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## praveen007

*Another ditch by Gripan to have a short a MMRCA.
Dont know how mach it will succeds
.
.
Livefist: New Gripen Ad For MMRCA Says A Lot*





.
This very interesting advert for the Gripen NG
appears in the current edition of India's biggest
news magazine, India Today. It says a lot of
things. One, it appears three months after the
Gripen was officially eliminated from the Indian
MMRCA competition. Two, and more
interestingly, Saab's creative concept has shifted
away from simply highlighting the Gripen's
virtues (also of "autonomy" and "independence"),
and now takes a direct shot at the two finalists in
the competition -- the Eurofighter Typhoon and
Dassault Rafale -- on cost and stated capability. In
short, Saab believes it still has a chance, and this
fight isn't finished.
In one part, the advert says, "Performance
counts when aircraft are in the air, defending the
skies. Unfortunately, too many fighter aircraft are
either sitting on the ground because they are too
expensive to fly or simply do not have the
capabilities that they were touted to have." Ouch.
Also, "[The Gripen IN] has taken the essential
philosophy behind the Gripen to the next level,
making it a fighter of the latest generation priced
at less than half of its peers and operating at a
fraction of the cost." The folks at Saab know all
too well how delicate the next step in the MMRCA
selection will be -- the opening of bids and toss-
ups against a benchmark price, understood to be
ready and defined.
It gets better. The ad goes on the declare "Today,
India has a choice". Hmm, yep -- between the
Typhoon and Rafale, right? Well, there's nothing
official about it, but it's been rumoured for a while
that the four companies that were eliminated
three months ago from the Indian MMRCA fighter
competition (including Saab), have been "asked"
to stick around in the country. The applicability of
the aphorism "it ain't over, till it's over" to Indian
defence contracting is well known. And it has
much to do with what some see as a track that
runs parallel to the ongoing selection process. A
track that appears to internalize the possibility of
complete chaos, forcing a Plan B. Imagine that.


----------



## SpArK

*Amazing photo of Hungarian Gripen @ Kecskemet air show *​

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## Lord Of Gondor

My favorite jet in the entire MMRCA competition,would have been the best option both economically and maintainence wise


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## SpArK

Bharadwaj said:


> My favorite jet in the entire MMRCA competition,would have been the best option both economically and maintainence wise


 
Then you deserve a few more WoW pics..

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## rockstarIN

Bharadwaj said:


> My favorite jet in the entire MMRCA competition,would have been the best option both economically and maintainence wise


 
We use the same engine for LCA, same amount of composites...So why not make LCA to a Gripen NG instead of buying it?

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## Lord Of Gondor

I said that as Tejas Mark two can carry a payload of upto 5000 Kilo's as opposed to Gripen IN's 7500 Kilo's and the Gripen is available now but Tejas won't be ready until 2017(FOC).


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## Black Widow

Bharadwaj said:


> I said that as Tejas Mark two can carry a payload of upto 5000 Kilo's as opposed to Gripen IN's 7500 Kilo's and the Gripen is available now but Tejas won't be ready until 2017(FOC).


 
True, But what is the use of buying Light category fighter plane while the tender has been raised for MMRCA??? AFAIK Grippen and F16 were never in race... The true contender were F18,Rafael and EFT from very first day.. 

By the time 100+ MMRCA will be procured/made LCA will be somewhat technologically close to Gripen..

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## Lord Of Gondor

Black Widow said:


> True, But what is the use of buying Light category fighter plane while the tender has been raised for MMRCA??? AFAIK Grippen and F16 were never in race... The true contender were F18,Rafael and EFT from very first day..
> 
> By the time 100+ MMRCA will be procured/made LCA will be somewhat technologically close to Gripen..


Gripen was in the MMRCA race because it is a Medium-weight category aircraft.I only said that ACCORDING TO ME,Gripen was our best choice
I agree with your last statement.


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## RPK

Lindgren said that Sweden hoped to get the deal to supply Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) despite Indian Air Force shortlisting Eurofighter Typhoon and Dassault Rafale, both double engine aircrafts. &#8220;Ours is a single engine aircraft that is light and 10 times cheaper than the two aircrafts. The IAF has to upgrade its old MIGs and there is also a need to buy affordable aircrafts. So we are hopeful that India will come back to us,&#8221; he said.

TN aims to become a global skills hub - southindia - Tamil Nadu - ibnlive

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## sancho

Bharadwaj said:


> I said that as Tejas Mark two can carry a payload of upto 5000 Kilo's as opposed to Gripen IN's 7500 Kilo's and the Gripen is available now but Tejas won't be ready until 2017(FOC).


 
The 7500Kg of the Gripen NG is not realistic, that was one of Saabs PR tricks and would be possible only with reduced internal fuel:

MTOW: 16500Kg - empty weight: 7100Kg - payload: 7500Kg
= Internal fuel: 1900Kg 

That's even less than the older Gripens and LCA Mk1 have and normally the Gripen NG is given with increased internal fuel of around 3360Kg, which is why the payload normally should be around 6000Kg:








Also, Gripen NG is a tech demonstrator, that means that it shows some of the prototypes of the new techs and capabilities that could be available in the Gripen E/F, which is still far away from beeing ready. The first prototype with all airframe changes and the final radar, IRST... was said to fly in april/mai, but AFAIK that didn't happen. Not sure if it had something to do with the rejection in MMRCA, but the fact is, Gripen E/F might be ready earlier than LCA MK2, but is not available, ready, or even proven. Another commonality to LCA!

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## anathema

cross posting from other thread -- this is related to Mirage upgrade deal and possible impacts on MMRCA

Some questions to ponder -->

The deal so expensive doesnt make sense at the first glance however, 

If India has made up its mind to go with Rafale or atleast there are enough indicators that L1 will be Rafale then this could mean that,

India initiates infrastructure setup for Mirage upgrade in such a way that it will have necessary ground work to expand towards Rafale production..this would further bring down the cost of Rafale offer... 

HAL is trained on latest French production capabilities much before RAFALE arrives for production..significantly easing out any chances of dealy due to untrained manpower.....

Finally CCS has cleared this expensive deal, it is my hope that they wont raise a ruckuss when RAFALE comes along which will be exhorbitantly expensive...

Just some thoughts...


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## DacterSaab

Black Widow said:


> True, But what is the use of buying Light category fighter plane while the tender has been raised for MMRCA??? AFAIK Grippen and F16 were never in race... The true contender were F18,Rafael and EFT from very first day..
> 
> By the time 100+ MMRCA will be procured/made LCA will be somewhat technologically close to Gripen..



actually the Rafale and EFT were always the only true choices cause very frankly anyone who thinks IAF would have bought outdated American jets is delusional


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## Dash

DacterSaab said:


> actually the Rafale and EFT were always the only true choices cause very frankly anyone who thinks IAF would have bought outdated American jets is delusional



Now they have offered F-35, imagine if it was there in initial offer...Equation qould have been a lot different. By the way F-18 is still not an outdated Jet. but outdated compared to some....If India can fund future platforms for F-18 then you could have gotten F-18 Silent Eagle...


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## dr.crazze

Dash said:


> Now they have offered F-35, imagine if it was there in initial offer...Equation qould have been a lot different. By the way F-18 is still not an outdated Jet. but outdated compared to some....If India can fund future platforms for F-18 then you could have gotten F-18 Silent Eagle...


when they offer f35 and if at all they offer then it would be very late and possibly unaffordable with pakfa


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## Dash

crazzze said:


> when they offer f35 and if at all they offer then it would be very late and possibly unaffordable with pakfa



That is true, but how about IN, whose RFP was responded by LM with F-35, its a different story we rejected it outright, but considering when MRCA started, if it was there then things would have been surely different, and we were also intial stage of participating in PAKFA....


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## dr.crazze

Dash said:


> That is true, but how about IN, whose RFP was responded by LM with F-35, its a different story we rejected it outright, but considering when MRCA started, if it was there then things would have been surely different, and we were also intial stage of participating in PAKFA....


it is actually being offered that if we go for f16 then in future us will sell the f35 lightening ii if as you can see india declined i think india is more inclined for the mig lmfs project right now as if we drop it down it may end up in hands of ????(you know who)


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## brational

Mig LMFS cant be a choice nor does F-35.. Why we r moving towards AMCA then? Too many Fighter planes.. IAF will become mad, what to fly, when to fly, how to fly and even why to fly.. There are smarter people in the system, let them deceide AMCA or LMFS or F35.. Till then enjoy guys... Zindegi Na Milegi Dobara..


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## Dash

crazzze said:


> it is actually being offered that if we go for f16 then in future us will sell the f35 lightening ii if as you can see india declined i think india is more inclined for the mig lmfs project right now as if we drop it down it may end up in hands of ????(you know who)



I dont think its right to say we need to buy a fighter coz if we dont it might fall in someone else's hands.
What we need to buy is purely dependant on what we need and what kind of tech base we can create out of it.

Long back and i think even today some say that China dropped out of PAKFA project coz they wanted to persue their own and it fell in our hands and we became a partner in it, not just buying the fighter. And China did the right think not fearing if India will buy one or not...

We need to have similar mentality and I am sure we have it. LMFS is not more than a paper plane with just a hull and engine. Russians might persue it but that will be later..for LMFS we are having AMCA...and a better plane than that (at least in paper which will come true).

So we are on track....

That F-35 thing if we would have baught F-16 was a PR at the best.


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## dr.crazze

Dash said:


> I dont think its right to say we need to buy a fighter coz if we dont it might fall in someone else's hands.
> What we need to buy is purely dependant on what we need and what kind of tech base we can create out of it.
> 
> Long back and i think even today some say that China dropped out of PAKFA project coz they wanted to persue their own and it fell in our hands and we became a partner in it, not just buying the fighter. And China did the right think not fearing if India will buy one or not...
> 
> We need to have similar mentality and I am sure we have it. LMFS is not more than a paper plane with just a hull and engine. Russians might persue it but that will be later..for LMFS we are having AMCA...and a better plane than that (at least in paper which will come true).
> 
> So we are on track....
> 
> That F-35 thing if we would have baught F-16 was a PR at the best.


all i want to push is in light of amca f 35 is unfeasible but we can have the mig lmfs tech and use it in amca and its(lmfs) not a paper plane its flying 
btw no offence look closely at the j20 it looks to me as a enlarged 2 engined version of lmfs


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## Dash

crazzze said:


> all i want to push is in light of amca f 35 is unfeasible but we can have the mig lmfs tech and use it in amca and its(lmfs) not a paper plane its flying
> btw no offence look closely at the j20 it looks to me as a enlarged 2 engined version of lmfs



None taken....those are some unconfirmed media reports, but possible....I will try and get you a link of a US fighter X plane mde by lockheed I guess which exactly matches to what China has made, more than LMFS, the structure is 80% the same... give me some time..But we are going off topic. So I will send you that link..

Check your visitors log, its there....


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## sancho

*Rafale Demo MAKS 2011 *

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## praveen007

*A Diplomatic View of the MMRCA Deal*
.
.
India&#8217;s tender for 126 Medium Range Multi-role
Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) has been the object of
intensive and prolonged international interest.
Such a massive order for advanced aircraft by a
single country for procurement from the
international market is rare. All the major defence
equipment exporters in the world have been
eyeing this $10 billion contract avidly, with US,
Russia, France, Sweden and the European
consortium of Germany, UK, Italy and Spain in
the fray. The total value of this contract will, of
course, be much more than the $10 billion price
tag being currently mentioned if the supply of
spare parts, upgrades etc over the 30 to 40 year
service life of the aircraft are taken into account.
There are other fall-outs also, as such a major
contract creates mutual stakes and networks of
cooperation between defence establishments,
with a catalytic effect not only in enhancing
defence cooperation in general, but in improving
political relations as well.
Click for IDR subscription
A lot of suspense has accompanied this tender,
with a great deal of uncertainty about which
aircraft would eventually be shortlisted for final
selection. Observers were unclear whether the
evaluation process would be purely technical, or
would be influenced by political considerations. In
any case, the general belief is that decisions on
such high-value defence contracts that have an
important political fall-out can never be divorced
from politics and therefore can never be purely
technical.

...if the US can impose an arms embargo
against China despite the intensity of their
economic and financial ties and the need to
manage their conflicting strategic interests
in East Asia which carries its own
compulsions of keeping China in good
humour, why cannot the US revise its policy
of arming a country that is unstable, almost
failing as a state in US eyes, irresponsible
on nuclear matters, and most responsible
for the dangerous spread of extremism and
terrorism in the region and well beyond?
.
The lack of confidence in our defence
procurement process, with its inordinate delays
and lack of transparency, added to speculation
about the time-frame of decision making. The
marked bureaucratic apathy in the Ministry of
Defence, with officials inclined to avoid taking
responsibility for decisions and delaying them as
much as possible so as to protect themselves
from potential controversies later, was seen as
good reason to expect procrastination. The
noxious games played by competing companies
against each other, roping in members of
parliament and planting press articles to cast
doubt on the probity of the evaluation process
and the final award, which has featured as an
unpalatable side-show of defence deals in India,
was expected to play its part too in deferring
decisions.
It was widely believed that the evaluation process
would be highly complex in any case, with the
performance parameters listed for the aircraft
being too numerous, and none of the competing
aircraft expected to meet all of them in trials.
Beyond this, it was bandied about by cynics that
even if the Air Force were to do a purely objective
performance-based exercise in evaluating the
aircraft, its final recommendation would watch
for signals from the Ministry of Defence.
In the event, the evaluation process for the
MMRCA deal has proceeded remarkably well. A
very difficult exercise has been completed in good
time. Confidentiality has been maintained, apart
from the bizarre instance of an off-sets related file
being found in a most unlikely place. Despite
efforts by interested parties to probe into the
progress of the evaluation process, no substantial
leakage of information seems to have occurred,
indicating, to the credit of those involved, that the
integrity of the process was maintained. The
most striking aspect of the technical evaluation is,
however, the rather unexpected result. Only the
Eurofighter and the Rafale have been retained in
the short list for final selection; the two US aircraft
have been excluded from further consideration.
..
*...............for full article please visit above link*


----------



## Black Widow

crazzze said:


> when they offer f35 and if at all they offer then it would be very late and possibly unaffordable with pakfa




Offering F35 is a drama bu USA, and the price what lady clinton quoted was something unbelievable. F35 is in high demand, there are more than 6 countries who will take it first, then it will be given to other countries. Imagine the delay...

F35 is something which give pleasure to Mr Shukla...


----------



## Army Strong

*Eurofighter Offers Naval Fighter to Sweeten M-MRCA Offering*

2011-08-02 In anticipation of winning the Indian Air Force's $10.4 billion tender for 126 combat jets, European consortium EADS has offered India a choice to pioneer a project for a naval version of the Eurofighter Typhoon that is in the fray in what is being described as the "mother of all defence deals". 

Typhoon's competitor in the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) tender, the French firm Dassault's Rafale, already has a naval version that is operational on France's lone nuclear-powered aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle.

Also: Eurofighter Offers Technology Transfer; U.K. Rejects Naval Eurofighter Variant in Favor of F-35 JSF

Officials of BAE Systems, one of the four partner companies in EADS for the Typhoon programme, told reporters during a visit to their RAF Warton production facility in Britain recently that India can exercise the choice of being a partner nation and leading the programme for the carrier-borne version of the aircraft if it wins the MMRCA tender. At present, Britain, Italy, Spain and Germany are partners in the Typhoon programme. 

According to the BAE Systems officials, the Typhoon, which is a shore-based combat jet, has the potential to be a carrier-borne aircraft, provided a few modifications are made to the aircraft itself, essentially in a ski-jump take-off configuration due to the thrust-vectoring 90 kN (kilo Newton) engine that powers it. 

Among the changes, it identifies strengthening of the undercarriage of the aircraft to assist in hard landings on a carrier's deck, fitting a carrier hook for arrested landings, and a good paint coating to help it withstand the vagaries of nature at sea. 

The choice of the Typhoon for the Indian Navy the officials said, will complement the experience of operating the British Sea Harrier vertical-landing carrier-borne aircraft on board its lone aircraft carrier, INS Viraat, for over two decades now. Of the nearly 30 Harriers India had got for INS Viraat, only about 10 are left in service, with the rest lost in air crashes.

The offer has been made keeping in mind the Indian Navy's request for information issued in 2009. But the Indian Navy itself is not very amused with the offer. 

First, according to officials, the Indian Navy plans to induct the Russian-built Admiral Gorshkov or INS Vikramaditya in the next couple of years. This warship will deploy Russian MiG-29K naval fighter jets and for this, the vessel is being reconfigured into a ski-jump take-off but arrested landing (STOBAR) mode at the Sevmash shipyard in Russia. 

The same aircraft will be operated from the flight deck of India's indigenous aircraft carrier, under construction at the Cochin Shipyard, when it is inducted in the middle of this decade. Hence the Indian Navy has placed a total order for 45 MiG-29Ks for the two carriers from Russia.

For the future, the navy wants the Defence Research and Development Organisation's Tejas light combat aircraft's naval variant to fructify. If it does, then it may be the future carrier-borne aircraft of the navy for its two more indigenous aircraft carriers planned for construction at the Cochin Shipyard. But that decision is a long shot as it stands today, according to senior naval aviation officers. 

But here is where the EADS, and BAE Systems in particular, is hopeful and is pitching the Typhoons as a powerful STOBAR platform for the future indigenous aircraft carriers of India.

Eurofighter Offers Naval Fighter to Sweeten M-MRCA Offering | India Defence


----------



## luckyyy

i think FGFA has taken away all the shine from MMRCA ..

and rightly so !!


----------



## AkhandIndia

Army Strong said:


> *Eurofighter Offers Naval Fighter to Sweeten M-MRCA Offering*
> 
> 2011-08-02 In anticipation of winning the Indian Air Force's $10.4 billion tender for 126 combat jets, European consortium EADS has offered India a choice to pioneer a project for a naval version of the Eurofighter Typhoon that is in the fray in what is being described as the "mother of all defence deals".
> 
> Typhoon's competitor in the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) tender, the French firm Dassault's Rafale, already has a naval version that is operational on France's lone nuclear-powered aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle.
> 
> Also: Eurofighter Offers Technology Transfer; U.K. Rejects Naval Eurofighter Variant in Favor of F-35 JSF
> 
> Officials of BAE Systems, one of the four partner companies in EADS for the Typhoon programme, told reporters during a visit to their RAF Warton production facility in Britain recently that India can exercise the choice of being a partner nation and leading the programme for the carrier-borne version of the aircraft if it wins the MMRCA tender. At present, Britain, Italy, Spain and Germany are partners in the Typhoon programme.
> 
> According to the BAE Systems officials, the Typhoon, which is a shore-based combat jet, has the potential to be a carrier-borne aircraft, provided a few modifications are made to the aircraft itself, essentially in a ski-jump take-off configuration due to the thrust-vectoring 90 kN (kilo Newton) engine that powers it.
> 
> Among the changes, it identifies strengthening of the undercarriage of the aircraft to assist in hard landings on a carrier's deck, fitting a carrier hook for arrested landings, and a good paint coating to help it withstand the vagaries of nature at sea.
> 
> The choice of the Typhoon for the Indian Navy the officials said, will complement the experience of operating the British Sea Harrier vertical-landing carrier-borne aircraft on board its lone aircraft carrier, INS Viraat, for over two decades now. Of the nearly 30 Harriers India had got for INS Viraat, only about 10 are left in service, with the rest lost in air crashes.
> 
> The offer has been made keeping in mind the Indian Navy's request for information issued in 2009. But the Indian Navy itself is not very amused with the offer.
> 
> First, according to officials, the Indian Navy plans to induct the Russian-built Admiral Gorshkov or INS Vikramaditya in the next couple of years. This warship will deploy Russian MiG-29K naval fighter jets and for this, the vessel is being reconfigured into a ski-jump take-off but arrested landing (STOBAR) mode at the Sevmash shipyard in Russia.
> 
> The same aircraft will be operated from the flight deck of India's indigenous aircraft carrier, under construction at the Cochin Shipyard, when it is inducted in the middle of this decade. Hence the Indian Navy has placed a total order for 45 MiG-29Ks for the two carriers from Russia.
> 
> For the future, the navy wants the Defence Research and Development Organisation's Tejas light combat aircraft's naval variant to fructify. If it does, then it may be the future carrier-borne aircraft of the navy for its two more indigenous aircraft carriers planned for construction at the Cochin Shipyard. But that decision is a long shot as it stands today, according to senior naval aviation officers.
> 
> But here is where the EADS, and BAE Systems in particular, is hopeful and is pitching the Typhoons as a powerful STOBAR platform for the future indigenous aircraft carriers of India.
> 
> Eurofighter Offers Naval Fighter to Sweeten M-MRCA Offering | India Defence



if brits sell their old aircraft carrier with typhoons,then it shud be a good deal


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## Dash

AkhandIndia said:


> if brits sell their old aircraft carrier with typhoons,then it shud be a good deal



 I dont think their old aircraft carrier can berth Typhoons....


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## sancho

AkhandIndia said:


> if brits sell their old aircraft carrier with typhoons,then it shud be a good deal



Their old carriers are STOVL carriers, for fighters like the Sea Harriers or F35B, that can take off via ski-jump and land vertically. The Sea Typhoon can't land vertically and needs a carrier with an angled flight deck and arrested landing, like the Gorshkov, or IAC 1.
Besides, that's old news and is just a fake offer to give us anything where our industry can participate at development level, otherwise we will only be a partner in production and the EF partners just outsourced it to India to lower the costs.


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## Abingdonboy

^^^ not just that but beyond Vikramditya and IAC-1 all future IN carriers are almost certainly going to be CATOBAR carriers so the Sea-Typhoon offer is a dud as it can't operate in this configuration and IN has the STOBAR category filled with Mig-29Ks. Hence the N-MMRCA for future IN aviation plans.


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## sathya

*Rafale 30,000 hours special paint job making*








Happy Design, the company who made the beautifull Tiger Meet 2011 Mirage 2000C camo as well as the now, most famous "Petit prince" 30,000 hours commemorative paint job on the Rafale C118 and C121 has published a video and some interesting pictures of the different steps of the painting process made by the company ACOS. It took them only 6 days to complete the job using a paint with a different chemical base than the Rafale usual paint in order to remove it without damaging the military coating of the jets.


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## sancho

> *Dassault / Burst-An offer in the UAE by mid-September-Presse*
> 
> Dassault Aviation must submit a final commercial offer in the UAE by mid-September for the sale of sixty Rafale combat aircraft, reported Thursday the daily newspaper Les Echos.
> Fort including the Libyan experience, which allowed the Rafale to show his versatility, *Abu Dhabi would have significantly revised down its requests for changes in technology, the emirate no longer requiring an increase in engine thrust and improvements in electronic warfare*, the newspaper said.
> "They sort through all the options. That's a sign of pragmatism," he told Les Echos a close case. No one was immediately available at Dassault Aviation for comment.



Dassault/Rafale-Une offre aux Emirats d'ici mi-septembre-Presse, Actualités boursières


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## rockstarIN

What improvements they are looking in electronic warfare ?


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## sancho

rockstar said:


> What improvements they are looking in electronic warfare ?



According the report they are not looking for it anymore, seems that SPECTRAs capability during the Lybian conflict was impressive enough. Not sure what they wanted exactly, but since the Mirage 2000-9 and the F16 Block 60 got customised EWS as well, it wasn't surprising that they want more. They simply have too much money!

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## SpArK

defence.professionals | defpro.com



> Georgia Senator Saxby Chambliss assailed Pentagon purchases of Boeing&#8217;s carrier-based F/A-18 Super Hornet, *saying the plane is &#8220;obsolete&#8221; and &#8220;will be of limited to no value in any future threat scenario.*&#8221; In a letter to Secretary of Defense Leon Panetta, Chambliss argued that if the Pentagon failed to move out smartly on purchasing the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter for the U.S. Navy and other services, &#8220;we run the certain risk of ceding tactical air superiority in future conflicts.&#8221;




---------- Post added at 10:51 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:49 AM ----------

Lockheed Stealth Jet May Win Japan Deal - Bloomberg



> Lockheed Martin Corp. (LMT), the worlds largest defense company, is counting on stealth technology to beat Boeing Co. (BA) and Eurofighter GmbH in a Japanese fighter contest that may be worth more than $4 billion.
> The F-35 Joint Strike Fighter has better anti-radar capabilities than Boeings F-18 Super Hornet and Eurofighters Typhoon as it was specifically designed in a shape that would be hard to detect, said Craig Caffrey, a London-based analyst at IHS Janes DS Forecast, which advises defense suppliers. That may give the plane an edge as Japan previously tried to buy stealth fighters that can be used for spying as well as combat.

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## sancho

Crossposting from the MP forum (credits to Olybrius):















SP's Aviation August 2011 e-Magazine - SP's Aviation

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## sancho

*Interesting news from the Brazilian competition, where the Rafale consortium held a presentation to the Committee on External Relations and National Defense:*



> *FX-2, Rafale presentation to the Committee on External Relations and National Defense *
> 
> ...# The Rafale advantages:
> 
> * Twin engine aircraft for more power and safety (flying over dangerous areas like Amazon forest or Atlantic ocean)
> * Omnirole capability : perform Air to Air, ground attack and tactical or strategic reconnaissance mission in the same flight.
> * Replace several types of aircrafts : simplify logistic and crew training.
> * The only aircraft able to carry 1.5 times its empty weight while remaining very compact.
> * Range/payload efficiency sligtly better than the much larger Super Hornet and far better than the Gripen.
> * *Production garanteed until 2030 for French need only.
> * Ranked first in Korea contest (F-15 won on political ground only)
> * Shortlisted by India who dismissed both the Gripen and the Super Hornet*
> * Navy version operational on medium carriers (unlike Gripen)
> * 90-95% commonality between the navy and Air Force Version allowing common logistic support and crew training
> 
> # Transfer of technology:
> 
> ** 100% from french origin
> * French Transfer of technology only depends on the French presidency (unlike US TOT which need the Congress agreement) and has already been granted
> * Transfer of technology is considered as a part of the strategic partnership betweenBrazil and France and will be without restriction*
> 
> # Offset Examples :
> 
> * *Integation of new weapons through source code transfer
> * Production of the Rafale wings for Brazil, France and other export costumers
> * Production of the Radar*
> * Engine maintenance
> * Development of new weapons
> * Future devolopments for Brazilian or French needs
> * *When acquired by Brazilian engineers, the techologies are not restricted and can be used in other strategic areas*
> * Dassault, Thales and Snecma has already a strong cooperation experience with the Brazilian Industry
> * Offsets reach 160% of the aircrafts purchase (both in defense and civilian projects)
> * Direct offer to purchase a dozen of Brazilian KC-390 including French industry support for the aircraft development
> 
> # Low risk program with strong commitment from both French government and industry



Rafale News: FX-2, Rafale presentation to the Committee on External Relations and National Defense


The shortlisting in MMRCA is now a strong point for Rafale and the EF and it's intereresting that they even quote the former Air Chief. The production of wings for export Rafales might effect us only for the first 18 fighters, or the early licence produced, while the rest will be build in India. But it gives an idea about what they could offer to India as well, because some parts of the whole production would be diverted to India too and it is interesting to see, that Brazil only gets a maintenance hub for the engines, while India might get way more in this area. 
Maybe the key difference to the US arms, is not only that we get key ToT of the fighter, but also are able to used them unrestricted!



*Some scans from the presentation:*

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## Gandhi G in da house

-------------


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## Dash

sancho said:


> Crossposting from the MP forum (credits to Olybrius):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SP's Aviation August 2011 e-Magazine - SP's Aviation



In the Mirage upgrade article the IAF guy has mentioned about Meteor in teh package. Do you think he is right?


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## rockstarIN

I switch to Rafale...

---------- Post added at 01:00 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:59 AM ----------

Still love EFT


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## Executioner

Hi, Can anyone update me How many birds are coming to India ?


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## sancho

Dash said:


> In the Mirage upgrade article the IAF guy has mentioned about Meteor in teh package. Do you think he is right?


 
No I don't think so, once because the missile is still in development stage and not integrated in the prime fighters that will use it (Gripen, Rafale and EF), an integration into M2K (especially in such low numbers) would be very costly and not useful. But there are operational issues as well, because I don't think the radar will be able to fully support METEOR, or that it might be carried only on 2 hardpoints of the wings, while it might be too long for the hardpoints at the fuselage, which normally carries MICA. 




Executioner said:


> Hi, Can anyone update me How many birds are coming to India ?



Fixed are 126 (18 of the shelf and 108 licence produced) with 64 optional. Rumored are 40 for SFC and the IN competition is for at least another 40.

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## nikhilarya

EFT all the way. i been long a fan of EFT, it will bring best tech of Europe in India.


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## nikhilarya

i always like ur posts, u r good


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## DacterSaab

sancho said:


> No I don't think so, once because the missile is still in development stage and not integrated in the prime fighters that will use it (Gripen, Rafale and EF), an integration into M2K (especially in such low numbers) would be very costly and not useful. But there are operational issues as well, because I don't think the radar will be able to fully support METEOR, or that it might be carried only on 2 hardpoints of the wings, while it might be too long for the hardpoints at the fuselage, which normally carries MICA.



hi Sancho. have you considered that the French themselves are going to use M2Ks upto 2030 untill the last french air force Rafale is manufactured and delivered to them. Also IAF may want to integrate Meteor on 200+ LCA. I have arrived at the number on the basis of reports that the IAF has firm requirements of 10 squads worth of LCA and 1 LCA squad has 20 fighters. the Naval orders will be extra but will not make much of a difference to the total. If navy would like to go the CATOBAR way then the LCA may be reconfigured to CATOBAR naval variant a technology that would be part of the N-MMRCA winner TOT which most certainly would be either Rafale or JSF thats the shortlist in my opinion for N-MMRCA.


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## aimarraul

Mega jet deal could be split: Ex-NSA told US

Mega jet deal could be split: Ex-NSA told US - The Times of India

NEW DELHI: Although US firms lost out on India's mega fighter deal, former national security adviser M K Narayanan had told US diplomats that the $10 billion buy could be split into two contracts and that he would ask Prime Minister Manmohan Singh to keep both price and quality in mind.

The US aircraft were finally knocked on technical grounds, but higher pricing of fighters like the F-18 series put them at a disadvantage with regard to European rivals and discussion on the deal came up before Singh's Washington visit in 2009. According to WikiLeaks, a US cable from New Delhi spoke of undersecretary Bill Burns meeting with Narayanan to preview the visit during which Narayanan expressed personal interest in "counterterrorism deliverables" and suggested the Indian government may ultimately split the tender.

Narayanan also assured Burns of progress on civil nuclear cooperation ahead of the visit, including the imminent public announcement of reactor park sites for US firms and requested lifting of restrictions on high technology trade and expanded space cooperation.

In an indication of the clout he enjoyed in the PMO, Narayanan offered his personal assistance in brokering inter-ministerial approval of the counterterrorism deliverable, the proposed Law Enforcement and Security Cooperation Initiative.

In the one-on-one meeting, Narayanan suggested that the fighter tender may be split between two recipients, and that he would recommend that PM Singh take into consideration "both price and quality".

India had no "confrontation" with the US on outer space, and nothing stood in the way of further cooperation and this could fill the void left by the completion of the civil nuclear cooperation agreement.


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## sancho

DacterSaab said:


> hi Sancho. have you considered that the French themselves are going to use M2Ks upto 2030 untill the last french air force Rafale is manufactured and delivered to them. Also IAF may want to integrate Meteor on 200+ LCA. I have arrived at the number on the basis of reports that the IAF has firm requirements of 10 squads worth of LCA and 1 LCA squad has 20 fighters. the Naval orders will be extra but will not make much of a difference to the total. If navy would like to go the CATOBAR way then the LCA may be reconfigured to CATOBAR naval variant a technology that would be part of the N-MMRCA winner TOT which most certainly would be either Rafale or JSF thats the shortlist in my opinion for N-MMRCA.



France will operate the M2K for longer, but Rafale will be the prime fighter especially in the A2A role. Also their M2K Cs and Bs will have the same problem that I mentioned above, that METEOR would be carried only on 2 hardpoints, so using M2K-5s with up to 6 x MICAs in the escort role makes more sense.
India will not buy METEOR for LCA, because LCA is meant to be a low cost fighter, that's why Russian and Indian weapons are meant for it, with some Israeli alternatives. In the BVR field Astra is meant to be the prime missile for LCA (also for MKI), with R77 and Derby used till Astra is operational.
N-LCA is not a good carrier fighter and when you want to project your power, or even to compete with China, you don't put your least capable fighter on IAC2! 
If Rafale will be selected in MMRCA, I think the chances for a combined order of the navy are good, but might depend on political reasons too. I expect the US to provide us catapults only if we buy a US fighter and possibly the E-2D. Migs, Sea Gripens and Sea Typhoons have no chance at all, because they are less capable, not developed yet.


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## sancho

Google translated



> *Export: imminent departure for the Rafale?*
> 
> United Arab Emirates, *India* and Qatar, three markets in which Dassault Aviation could finally win.
> 
> This is one of the major challenges for the military aviation industry: the French Rafale fighter aircraft will fly there one day in a foreign air force? So far Dassault Aviation has drawn a blank, the manufacturer, often ridiculed for its failures in international tenders, however, *could soon be celebrating its first export contract by the end of the year by selling some sixty devices in the United Arab Emirates (UAE), which seem to finally afford one of the jewels of the French military technology* ("La Tribune" of August 5)...



Google Übersetzer


In the presentation of the Rafale consortium in Brazil the UAE was even shown as an Rafale customer, which indicates how far the negotiations are now.


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## DacterSaab

sancho said:


> India will not buy METEOR for LCA, because LCA is meant to be a low cost fighter, that's why Russian and Indian weapons are meant for it, with some Israeli alternatives. In the BVR field Astra is meant to be the prime missile for LCA (also for MKI), with R77 and Derby used till Astra is operational.
> N-LCA is not a good carrier fighter and when you want to project your power, or even to compete with China, you don't put your least capable fighter on IAC2!
> If Rafale will be selected in MMRCA, I think the chances for a combined order of the navy are good, but might depend on political reasons too. I expect the US to provide us catapults only if we buy a US fighter and possibly the E-2D. Migs, Sea Gripens and Sea Typhoons have no chance at all, because they are less capable, not developed yet.


But weren't there reports a sometime back that IAF wanted to integrate MICA on LCAs and even Americans were offering Light weight weapons for LCA. Raytheon was the company unless I'm mistaken.
I don't think we'll operate only 1 type of aircraft from IAC-2 cause Navy has already said they'll operate both MiG-29s and LCAs from Vikramaditya and IAC-1. LCA being light weight will be easier to scramble and be good for point defense, interception and Scouting/Short distance Patrolling.
I think the US will provide us catapults even if we don't buy JSF we've already purchased E2Ds. I think Rafale is a good option only if both IAF and Navy choose it so If IAF buy EFT then the navy should buy JSF cause at least it's a 5th gen fighter. Either way navy'll need a Light weight fighter for that we can either Purchase Sea Gripen or develop a CATOBAR variant of LCA the latter being the more probable cause it makes no sense to buy 5-6 Sea Gripens. I personally dont want JSF on IAC-2 cause it's not very good for A2A missions.

Also Why buy Fighters for SFC we should purchase Tu-160s


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## sancho

DacterSaab said:


> But weren't there reports a sometime back that IAF wanted to integrate MICA on LCAs and even Americans were offering Light weight weapons for LCA. Raytheon was the company unless I'm mistaken.



With the selection of Derby the BVR missile field should be done and only because certain companies offers weapons, it doesn't meant that we have to buy them, not even that their countries will allow the sale at the end. Keep in mind tha the US rejected several sales, JVs and consultancy offers of US companies for the LCA project.



DacterSaab said:


> LCA being light weight will be easier to scramble and be good for point defense, interception and Scouting/Short distance Patrolling.


Maybe at shore bases, but not from a carrier and in A2A it is inferiour to the Mig 29SMT, let alone the J15 as a potential opponent. Light weight fighters are simply no good carrier fighters and that's why it's a bad choice to go for an N-LCA!



DacterSaab said:


> I think the US will provide us catapults even if we don't buy JSF we've already purchased E2Ds.



we didn't purchased the E-2Ds, IN evaluates it, but mainly for their shore based AWACS requirement and as long as the design of IAC 2 is not fixed (STOBAR/CATOBAR), there is no use in buying that aircraft.



DacterSaab said:


> Also Why buy Fighters for SFC we should purchase Tu-160s


It's just rumored and meant for the 2nd strike capability, in close range. India don't need long range bombers.

But back to topic again.


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## tvsram1992

N-LCA is good for carrier defence.
Carrier defense is the ultimate aim of USN.


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## angeldemon_007

*IAF chief on Germany visit*

NEW DELHI (PTI): Indian Air Force chief Air Chief Marshal N A K Browne has embarked on a week-long visit to Germany to strengthen military ties with the European country.

The visit comes at a time when the Defence Ministry is in the final stages of deciding the multi-billion dollar deal to procure 126 Medium-Multirole Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) for the IAF.

Germany is the lead partner of the four nations manufacturing the Eurofighter Typhoon, which along with the French Dassault Rafale, has been shortlisted for the deal by the ministry.

During the visit, which began Tuesday, the IAF chief may also go to the plant where the Eurofighter Typhoon is manufactured. 

He will meet with senior military leadership of that country to strengthen bilateral ties.

India is in final stages of finalising the mega deal and is likely to open the commercial bids of the two shortlisted companies by the end of this month.

The new aircraft will be used by the IAF to replace its aging fleet of MiG-21 and MiG-27 warplanes.

IAF chief on Germany visit - Brahmand.com

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## sancho

> *Rafale: Dassault in very active negotiations with the UAE*
> 
> Les Echos , September 8
> 
> Dassault sent a negotiating team on the spot last weekend to wrap the final details of a technical and commercial proposal. The Emiratis evoke the Dubai Airshow in mid-November. The Brazilian experience, however, urges caution...
> 
> ...The technical configuration? It should finally be close to the French model, *with a radar whose range will be improved*, but an engine thrust of 7.5 tonnes and not more than 9 tonnes. The war in Libya did much: it demonstrated the full capabilities of the aircraft. The maintenance component is being finalized and the French Air Force has made a proposal to his counterpart for training *and an offer is on the table about the weapons (2ASM and MBDA Meteor missiles)*...



Rafale*: Dassault en négociations très actives avec les Emirats, Actualités


Two points that would be interesting for India, because Rafale for us might have more radar range as well and could get METEOR earlier than planned by the French forces.


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## Executioner

So, which planes are going to retire from the IAF service.


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## sancho

Executioner said:


> So, which planes are going to retire from the IAF service.



MMRCAs will replace mainly Mig 21s and 27s, all other older fighters will be upgraded and replaced by FGFA later.

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## luckyyy

with FGFA around , there is absolutly no need to waste money on MMRCA ..
just buy the Super-MKI's to replace the Mig 21s and 27s , even LCA would be enough to replace these..

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## MehrotraPrince

luckyyy said:


> with FGFA around , there is absolutly no need to waste money on MMRCA ..
> just buy the Super-MKI's to replace the Mig 21s and 27s , even LCA would be enough to replace these..


 
Its not just about replacement of old aircrafts. Its about getting latest high technology, along with possible maximum collaboration with European countries.


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## Archie

luckyyy said:


> with FGFA around , there is absolutly no need to waste money on MMRCA ..
> just buy the Super-MKI's to replace the Mig 21s and 27s , even LCA would be enough to replace these..



The 123 LCA MK1/2 are required to replace 120 Mig21 Bisons 
While mmrca will replace 5 Sqds of Mig27 and 2 Sqds of Jaguars
Also u cant just replace a Ground attack fighter with a Air superiority fighter
Both Su30MKI and FGFA are airsuperiority fighters

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## sancho

MehrotraPrince said:


> Its not just about replacement of old aircrafts. Its about getting latest high technology, along with possible maximum collaboration with European countries.



Exactly, but luckyy is a fan of Russian fighters, that's why he prefers them and don't understand that this is about way more than just new fighters.  But even if technology and industrial advantages wouldn't be important, Kargil showed IAF how important it is not to depend on Russian fighters and weapon only and have capable alternatives. That's why IAF prefered Mirage 2000-5 before, Rafale and EF today over Russian counterparts.




Archie said:


> The 123 LCA MK1/2 are required to replace 120 Mig21 Bisons
> While mmrca will replace 5 Sqds of Mig27 and 2 Sqds of Jaguars
> Also u cant just replace a Ground attack fighter with a Air superiority fighter
> Both Su30MKI and FGFA are airsuperiority fighters



Hi Archie, that's not correct like that, because any multi role combat fighter can replace older ground attack fighters. That's why the MKI is already replacing Mig 27 squads in IAF, why Rafale replaces Jags, Mirage and Super Étendard in the ground attack role, or why even the EF will replace Tornados in future.
The difference is, that older fighters were designed specially for one role and to maximise the advantages in this role, like specialised for low level penetration, better armour, or different avionics. So any multi role fighter might be able to strike, but might not be as effective in the same role as a dedicated strike fighter. The Libyan conflict and the different performance of the RAF Tornado and their EFs showed this pretty well. While the EF is a multi role fighter, it lacked the variety of weapons that the Tornado used to fulfill different types of strike roles. Also with the single seat config, RAF pilots reported that the Tornado WSOs often provided the laser guidance, to take away some of the workload of the EF pilots (twin seat EFs are trainers only).
Another example is the F35 that is a multi role fighter as well and will replace F15s in the A2A roles, as well as A10s in the CAS role. But although the weapons and techs makes it useful in both roles, it is not as good as the F15, or the A10. It is not fast and maneuverable enough to be an air superiority fighter, but is too fast and lacks the slow speed maneuverability of the A10 to fulfill the same roles as effectively.
Only a few fighters are designed to be nearly equally good in A2A and A2G, fighters like the F16, or Rafale. That's why they are the more balenced MMRCAs, while an EF/Mig 35 might have some advantages in the A2A role, or an F18SH maybe some advantages in the A2G role.

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## luckyyy

Archie said:


> The 123 LCA MK1/2 are required to replace 120 Mig21 Bisons
> While mmrca will replace 5 Sqds of Mig27 and 2 Sqds of Jaguars
> Also u cant just replace a Ground attack fighter with a Air superiority fighter
> Both Su30MKI and FGFA are airsuperiority fighters


 
SU-30MKI is the IAF's Prime Ground attack fighter ..


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## luckyyy

MehrotraPrince said:


> Its not just about replacement of old aircrafts. *Its about getting latest high technology,* along with possible maximum collaboration with European countries.


 
FGFA is the latest technology..


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## angeldemon_007

*This is the amateur photo of the year of a Eurofighter Typhoon, selected by a panel of judges.*








*Note: a photo from Aero India 2011 won the third prize... but this one is a deserving winner
*

Broadsword: Broadsword compliments: best 2011 amateur photo of a Eurofighter Typhoon

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## Black Widow

sancho said:


> Exactly, but luckyy is a fan of Russian fighters, that's why he prefers them and don't understand that this is about way more than just new fighters.  But even if technology and industrial advantages wouldn't be important, Kargil showed IAF how important it is not to depend on Russian fighters and weapon only and have capable alternatives. That's why IAF prefered Mirage 2000-5 before, Rafale and EF today over Russian counterparts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Archie, that's not correct like that, because any multi role combat fighter can replace older ground attack fighters. That's why the MKI is already replacing Mig 27 squads in IAF, why Rafale replaces Jags, Mirage and Super Étendard in the ground attack role, or why even the EF will replace Tornados in future.
> The difference is, that older fighters were designed specially for one role and to maximise the advantages in this role, like specialised for low level penetration, better armour, or different avionics. So any multi role fighter might be able to strike, but might not be as effective in the same role as a dedicated strike fighter. The Libyan conflict and the different performance of the RAF Tornado and their EFs showed this pretty well. While the EF is a multi role fighter, it lacked the variety of weapons that the Tornado used to fulfill different types of strike roles. Also with the single seat config, RAF pilots reported that the Tornado WSOs often provided the laser guidance, to take away some of the workload of the EF pilots (twin seat EFs are trainers only).
> Another example is the F35 that is a multi role fighter as well and will replace F15s in the A2A roles, as well as A10s in the CAS role. But although the weapons and techs makes it useful in both roles, it is not as good as the F15, or the A10. It is not fast and maneuverable enough to be an air superiority fighter, but is too fast and lacks the slow speed maneuverability of the A10 to fulfill the same roles as effectively.
> Only a few fighters are designed to be nearly equally good in A2A and A2G, fighters like the F16, or Rafale. That's why they are the more balenced MMRCAs, while an EF/Mig 35 might have some advantages in the A2A role, or an F18SH maybe some advantages in the A2G role.




Dear Sancho, There is a difference between "can do" and "should do". Any fighter can be used for any role, Its all depend what you want them to do. for eg Some country use F16 for Point defence while Pakistan use it as Air-Superiority role. 

MMRCA was a requirement for Ground attack fighter, this was the reason F18 and Rafael were front runner. I don't have any specific answer why MMRCAs are for Replacing/complementing Jaguar/MiG27. 

According to my limited knowledge This is the composition India uses.
1. Air superiority : Su30 MKI (not all), MiG29
2. Point defence: MiG21
3. Ground attack: Jaguar,MiG27, M2000H
4. Multirole: Su30MKI, MiG29

This will be future configuration:
1. Air superiority : Su30 MKI (not all), MiG29, FGFA/PAK-FA, AMCA(not all)
2. Point defence: MiG21, LCA
3. Ground attack: Jaguar,MiG27, MMRCA, M2000H
4. Multirole: Su30MKI, MiG29, AMCA, May be few FGFA

This is what Govt of India has planned..


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## Archie

*


sancho said:



Exactly, but luckyy is a fan of Russian fighters, that's why he prefers them and don't understand that this is about way more than just new fighters.  But even if technology and industrial advantages wouldn't be important, Kargil showed IAF how important it is not to depend on Russian fighters and weapon only and have capable alternatives. That's why IAF prefered Mirage 2000-5 before, Rafale and EF today over Russian counterparts.




Hi Archie, that's not correct like that, because any multi role combat fighter can replace older ground attack fighters. That's why the MKI is already replacing Mig 27 squads in IAF, why Rafale replaces Jags, Mirage and Super Étendard in the ground attack role, or why even the EF will replace Tornados in future.
The difference is, that older fighters were designed specially for one role and to maximise the advantages in this role, like specialised for low level penetration, better armour, or different avionics. So any multi role fighter might be able to strike, but might not be as effective in the same role as a dedicated strike fighter. The Libyan conflict and the different performance of the RAF Tornado and their EFs showed this pretty well. While the EF is a multi role fighter, it lacked the variety of weapons that the Tornado used to fulfill different types of strike roles. Also with the single seat config, RAF pilots reported that the Tornado WSOs often provided the laser guidance, to take away some of the workload of the EF pilots (twin seat EFs are trainers only).
Another example is the F35 that is a multi role fighter as well and will replace F15s in the A2A roles, as well as A10s in the CAS role. But although the weapons and techs makes it useful in both roles, it is not as good as the F15, or the A10. It is not fast and maneuverable enough to be an air superiority fighter, but is too fast and lacks the slow speed maneuverability of the A10 to fulfill the same roles as effectively.
Only a few fighters are designed to be nearly equally good in A2A and A2G, fighters like the F16, or Rafale. That's why they are the more balenced MMRCAs, while an EF/Mig 35 might have some advantages in the A2A role, or an F18SH maybe some advantages in the A2G role.

Click to expand...

*
While u are correct on all counts
but i think u misunderstood my post , which refered to an earlier quote stating that we should replace mig27 and Jaguars by FGFA , not Rafale/EF
Both FGFA and MKI are Primarily Airsuperiority fighters , they can also do SEAD missions as well as Antiship missions , but they cant switch between Air to Air combat to Ground Strike in the same mission , Also MKIs lack anti armour capability , a role performed primarily by IAF Jaguars while suporting Indian Army
While Rafale has proven Omnirole capability with more emphasis on Ground attack than Airsuperiority
While Typhoon is better at Airsuperiority than Ground attack , Infact Typhoon will not achieve Complete ground attack capability similar to rafale before 2015-16

By saying that any multirole aircraft can replace Dedicated ground attack fighter is true , but provided that multirole aircraft is Rafale or F/A18 not EF/Mig35
Since F/A18 is out , so Rafale is the only sensible choice left


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## Archie

luckyyy said:


> SU-30MKI is the IAF's Prime Ground attack fighter ..



Su30MKI is the best Aircraft of the IAF , so yes it is capable at ground attack , but it is not as good as Rafale or Super Hornet at this role or for that matter even Gripen NG 
Also it lacks anti Tank capability and it needs special modfication to conduct antiship operations as well as carrying Standoff Missiles 
Currently 36 MKI have been modified to carry anti ship missiles while another 36 would recieve the Modification 
About 50 MKIs will be Upgraded to carry Brahmos cruise missiles

Now compared to that , the 126-190 Rafale , if we acquire them , all of them will be capable of carrying Exocet Antiship Missiles as well as SCALP Cruise missiles 
From what i heard India is Looking at acquiring 1000 Anti Tank Brimstone Missiles , 72 Exocet Missiles and 120 Scalp Cruise Missiles along with 126 mmrca , whoever wins 
The Number of these Missiles will not Increase even if Number of Aircrafts increase to 190


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## Archie

Black Widow said:


> Dear Sancho, There is a difference between "can do" and "should do". Any fighter can be used for any role, Its all depend what you want them to do. for eg Some country use F16 for Point defence while Pakistan use it as Air-Superiority role.
> 
> MMRCA was a requirement for Ground attack fighter, this was the reason F18 and Rafael were front runner. I don't have any specific answer why MMRCAs are for Replacing/complementing Jaguar/MiG27.
> 
> According to my limited knowledge This is the composition India uses.
> 1. Air superiority : Su30 MKI (not all), MiG29
> 2. Point defence: MiG21
> 3. Ground attack: Jaguar,MiG27
> 4. Multirole: Su30MKI, MiG29
> 
> This will be future configuration:
> 1. Air superiority : Su30 MKI (not all), MiG29, FGFA/PAK-FA, AMCA(not all)
> 2. Point defence: MiG21, LCA
> 3. Ground attack: Jaguar,MiG27, MMRCA
> 4. Multirole: Su30MKI, MiG29, AMCA, May be few FGFA
> 
> This is what Govt of India has planned..



Dude u need to edit Future configurations , since Jaguars are supose to retire by 2022, while Mig29 will retire in 2026


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## atul

where is Mirage 2000, 51 of which India possesses


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## sancho

Black Widow said:


> Dear Sancho, There is a difference between "can do" and "should do". Any fighter can be used for any role, Its all depend what you want them to do. for eg Some country use F16 for Point defence while Pakistan use it as Air-Superiority role.
> 
> MMRCA was a requirement for Ground attack fighter, this was the reason F18 and Rafael were front runner.



It's true that different nations can use the same fighters for different purposes, but that is only possible if the fighter is multi role capable!
For example, the IAF Jaguars are dedicated ground attack fighters, which depending on version might have some self defence capability (IR missiles), but can't be deployed in any A2A role, that's why they are single role fighters! Similarly the Mig 29s were single role fighters so far, because they had no ground attack capability (same for PAFs F16s), but they will be added with the upgrade now, what makes them to multi role fighters.

MMRCA like the name says it, searches for a medium multi role combat aircraft, so ground attack capability is just one part of the requirements. The reason why it might have a prioirity is, because IAF searches for a fighter that is complementing the MKI and FGFA, that are meant to be the prime A2A fighters.


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## sancho

Archie said:


> Both FGFA and MKI are Primarily Airsuperiority fighters , they can also do SEAD missions as well as Antiship missions , but they cant switch between Air to Air combat to Ground Strike in the same mission



No I got your point, but it's the usual difficulty to define the term "multi role", because it describes different fighters with different capabilities and some countries/manufacturers have also their own terms for pretty much the same, which makes it even more complicated.

Let me try to explain it (the way I understands it), on basis of the LCA.

The LCA is developed as an multi role fighter, which as explained earlier means, that it can be used in A2A roles like interception / point defence similar to the Mig 21s, but also in strike roles where it can carry similar loads like the Jaguars.

*Mig 21 and LCA in a possible A2A configs*











*Jaguar and LCA in a possible A2G configs*










Now what you decribed for the MKI is the term "swing role" (often used from the EF consortium), which means that a fighter can switch between 2 roles at the same time. That is basically possible, if the fighter carries an A2A load while beeing on another mission, because it is still able to engage enemy fighters in BVR and WVR combats:

*Here is a EF "Swing role" config*






*Similarly, a Rafale in "Swing role" config during a reconnaissance mission*







Now when you compare that with the Jaguar and LCA in strike configs above, it gets clear that they have only self defence capabilities and would require additional fighter escorts to fulfill their roles.
Omni role is just the term that the French/Dassault uses to describe Rafales design/development goal, which was to be:



> *...a balanced multirole aircraft* that would be able to replace seven types of combat aircraft then in use.



Omnirole by design


So an "Omni role" fighter is a multi role fighter that is not primarily designed for A2A, with secondary A2G capabilities, but is meant to be more balanced and versatile by the design itself!
And to come back to the LCA as the base again, since it was designed primarily to be an interceptor, with secondary strike capabilities, it is not an "Omni role" fighter.

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## Black Widow

Archie said:


> Dude u need to edit Future configurations , since Jaguars are supose to retire by 2022, while Mig29 will retire in 2026



I said Future configuration, I didn't mention timeline. Its implicit (and understood) that The fighter you said will retire. I thought the reader here will understand it, so I rather not bother to mention it. 



atul said:


> where is Mirage 2000, 51 of which India possesses



I am sorry, I forgot to add Mirage, M2000H is been used as ground attack Aircraft in Indian AF. I will edit my post... 



sancho said:


> It's true that different nations can use the same fighters for different purposes, but that is only possible if the fighter is multi role capable!
> For example, the IAF Jaguars are dedicated ground attack fighters, which depending on version might have some self defence capability (IR missiles), but can't be deployed in any A2A role, that's why they are single role fighters! Similarly the Mig 29s were single role fighters so far, because they had no ground attack capability (same for PAFs F16s), but they will be added with the upgrade now, what makes them to multi role fighters.
> 
> MMRCA like the name says it, searches for a medium multi role combat aircraft, so ground attack capability is just one part of the requirements. The reason why it might have a prioirity is, because IAF searches for a fighter that is complementing the MKI and FGFA, that are meant to be the prime A2A fighters.



I agree with your point "only Multi-role Fighter can be used for different role by different AFs. It may be true (As you pointed out), some of the MMRCA fighter can be used for Multirole. But truly speaking I don't see any logic behind too many Multirole platform in IAF (MKI and MiG29 already Multi-role). As per my knowledge Airsuperiority fighters are Costliest (So not all MKIs are AS, Multirole is little cheaper, Ground attack role fighter is cheapest.)

So if we see economics behind it, I don see India will have 300+ MR fighter.


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## SpArK

*Burst the Emirates three reasons to believe
*


The record of the sale of Rafale in the UAE seems to again move in the right direction. Failing to be optimistic, we can still find some reason to be. Detailed review of three reasons to believe it.

1. Libya
The Delegate General for Armaments Laurent Collet-Billon was not hiding behind his little finger during the Summer of Defense, September 6. Libyan conflict? "In commercial matters, there is no better advertisement for the Rafale that this kind of operation. "Recognition, air superiority, strike targeted: the French fighter has shown his versatility in the field, the front line. And validated the performance of the AASM and Scalp missiles. "The Scalp was delivered with remarkable precision of one meter," said the DGA. Many assets to seduce the prospect UAE, who would not buy just a plane, but a weapon system.

2. Specifications lowered

Consequence of this efficiency: *the Emirates seem to have abandoned much of the technical improvements claimed in the beginning. The version proposed by Dassault should finally be close to the model of the French Air Force, providing just a Thales radar range improved (said active antenna) compared to its RBE2 an imperative for the country fearing a threat Iran's very close. Abu Dhabi, however, seems to have abandoned an increase in engine thrust Snecma M88 to 9 tonnes: the customer is satisfied the current 7.5 tons of thrust.*

*3. A real market for the Mirage 2000-9
*

This is one of contention in negotiations with the UAE: what to do with the sixty Mirage 2000-9 of the UAE Air Force in case of purchase of the Rafale? *Abu Dhabi calls for a resumption of the devices by France, which does not afford, even if the Air Force would not necessarily have winced at the idea of &#8203;&#8203;performance and recover the aircraft to replace its recent Mirage F-1 end of life, for example.*

The only solution seems* to sell these devices in other countries. A 20 million euros each, a figure mentioned in today's Echo, the operation seems playable, although complex, the plane is excellent, the Emiratis are very happy. Egypt, Pakistan and Iraq have recently even been quoted in the press as potential customers.* "The market at this price level, is much more open for a new appliance type Rafale, explained recently Challenges Richard Aboulafia, vice president of U.S. consultancy Teal Group, a specialist in defense. Stop production of the Mirage 2000 may have been a big mistake on the part of Dassault. "



Rafale aux Emirats : trois raisons d'y croire : Supersonique

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## marcos98



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## sancho

Rafale leading in Swiss competition!



> *One swing from above*
> 
> The Federal Council wants to make the decision for a new-type fighter jet in the fall. The results of the evaluation are confidential. Yet now seeping through the results
> 
> The purchase of new fighter aircraft for the Swiss army has so far been anything but straightforward. Three providers of fighter jets were once invited to the competition. After completing the evaluation of the procurement decision, however, was postponed by several years. Now, however, is at the decision - and *research shows the Basler Zeitung, that two of the tested types of aircraft in terms of technical capabilities that have the front nose. The lowest priced jet has therefore lost much of the competition. The French supplier Dassault Rafale, which has won with his methods. Close behind, in second place, followed by the Euro Fighter* of the arms company, EADS, in which the countries Germany, Great Britain, Italy and Spain are involved...


Google Übersetzer


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## sancho

Black Widow said:


> I agree with your point "only Multi-role Fighter can be used for different role by different AFs. It may be true (As you pointed out), some of the MMRCA fighter can be used for Multirole. But truly speaking I don't see any logic behind too many Multirole platform in IAF (MKI and MiG29 already Multi-role). As per my knowledge Airsuperiority fighters are Costliest (So not all MKIs are AS, Multirole is little cheaper, Ground attack role fighter is cheapest.)
> 
> So if we see economics behind it, I don see India will have 300+ MR fighter.



Didn't get your point why air superiority fighters are more expensive, but all MKIs are multi role fighters for and although I also think that sometimes it's more useful to have specialised fighters/aircrafts, the general increase of MRCA is very logical. Today IAF fleet is pretty much half A2A fighters, half A2G, because most of them are single role fighters only. So even if a total of 707 fighters (according BRs fleet strenght) sounds high, not all of them can be used for air defence and very few only for credible strikes. With the upgrades of M2Ks and Mig 29s + the induction of LCAs, MMRCAs and more MKIs for Mig 21s and 27, IAF will have more fighters useful for air defence *AND * strikes, which makes them automatically more capable. 
My objection however is, that beeing multi role capable, doesn't automatically means you are good in all roles. I don't think an F18SH is a very good air defence fighter, just like I don't think the EF would be a very good strike fighter. So while inducting multi role combat aircrafts, there should be a focus on a balanced fleet as well and why I think IAF badly needs a fighter like Rafale, next to LCA, MKI/FGFA in future, that adds more capabilities in the strike role. It's good performance in A2A is just a bonus, but with al ready 3 fighters designed for A2A, adding the EF with so low A2G capabilities simply doesn't make sense.
Same reason why I would prefer an AURA UCAV over AMCA, because it balances the capabilities of the IAF fleet way better than AMCA could do, besides the advantages that it's more cost-effective and can be deployed in higher numbers.

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## Archie

*Same reason why I would prefer an AURA UCAV over AMCA, because it balances the capabilities of the IAF fleet way better than AMCA could do, besides the advantages that it's more cost-effective and can be deployed in higher numbers. *

About that,
I dont think that u have seen the specs of AURA and AMCA
AMCA will Have a Max takeoff Weight of around 25 Tons , With atleast 6000 Kg of Payload , 10 Hardpoints and Top Speed of 1.8 Mach , as well as Super Cruise and Thrust vectoring Capability , a lot of the tech that we get from mmrca winner as well PAKFA will be incorporated into AMCA 
The Initial AMCA order is for 150 Aircrafts for IAF , with 40-50 for Navy
Compared to that AURA will have Max Takeoff weight of 15 Tons , Payload of 2500Kg , 4 Internal Hardpoints as well as Range of 1500-2000 Km , it will have a High Subsonic Top speed,
Hence there is no way that AURA will replace a Fighter , What it can do is Took up certain Roles which were earliar performed by Fighters like Providing close Air support to Army as well as Anti Armour operations , Targeting enemy Radar infrastructure coz it will have far lower RCS than any fighter and could sneak into enemy territory undetected 

AMCA is required to Replace 51 Mirage 2000 and 100 Jaguars Starting 2025 ,
Also if u look at it India has an option to Induct 90 more FGFA should there be a delay in AMCA , as India has Placed an Initial order for 54 PAKFA FROM Russia followed by Indigenous Production of 160 FGFA

It is unlikely that UCAVs will replace fighters in near future , they will complement them instead
Indian Air force is likely to acquire 80 AURA UCAVs while Army may acquire up to 100


----------



## sancho

Archie said:


> *Same reason why I would prefer an AURA UCAV over AMCA, because it balances the capabilities of the IAF fleet way better than AMCA could do, besides the advantages that it's more cost-effective and can be deployed in higher numbers. *
> 
> About that,
> I dont think that u have seen the specs of AURA and AMCA
> AMCA will Have a Max takeoff Weight of around 25 Tons , With atleast 6000 Kg of Payload , 10 Hardpoints and Top Speed of 1.8 Mach , as well as Super Cruise and Thrust vectoring Capability , a lot of the tech that we get from mmrca winner as well PAKFA will be incorporated into AMCA
> The Initial AMCA order is for 150 Aircrafts for IAF , with 40-50 for Navy
> Compared to that AURA will have Max Takeoff weight of 15 Tons , Payload of 2500Kg , 4 Internal Hardpoints as well as Range of 1500-2000 Km , it will have a High Subsonic Top speed,
> Hence there is no way that AURA will replace a Fighter , What it can do is Took up certain Roles which were earliar performed by Fighters like Providing close Air support to Army as well as Anti Armour operations , Targeting enemy Radar infrastructure coz it will have far lower RCS than any fighter and could sneak into enemy territory undetected
> 
> AMCA is required to Replace 51 Mirage 2000 and 100 Jaguars Starting 2025 ,
> Also if u look at it India has an option to Induct 90 more FGFA should there be a delay in AMCA , as India has Placed an Initial order for 54 PAKFA FROM Russia followed by Indigenous Production of 160 FGFA
> 
> It is unlikely that UCAVs will replace fighters in near future , they will complement them instead
> Indian Air force is likely to acquire 80 AURA UCAVs while Army may acquire up to 100



It's not because of the specs, which are not fixed yet either and the 10 hardpoints for AMCA are way too much:

Livefist: The Stealth In India's Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA)


The point was, since we already will have a multi role stealth fighter, which will take over the main air superioirty part and a very strong base of 4.5 gen multi role LCA, MMRCA, MKIs, the IAF fleet would be more balanced with a 5th gen stealth UCAV like AURA, which takes over the main strike roles. AMCA, is now aimed to be a smaller FGFA, with similar features and no real advantages in performance and that's why it wouldn't balance the fleet, while IAF could simply procure more FGFAs and AURAs, for the same, or even less costs than developing, inducting and operating another fighter type!

AURA would be even the perfect aircraft to replace the Jaguar fleet, although Jags are called fighters, they are limited to A2G roles only and all of them could be taken over from AURA. More over, loaded with AAMs and coupled with an FGFA and the SATCOM data links, FGFA could be used in the same "Mini AWACS" roles that the MKI does today, while AURA with it's low RCS, could be used in front of it and the FGFA WSO could even guide the missiles. A similar tactics that the IAF used with MKI and Mig 21s in exercises, or that the French forces show with Rafale:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/4347-mrca-news-discussions-323.html#post1673491

(post #4844)


And no, AMCA is not meant to replace M2K, Mig27/29 and Jags, but to be used in their roles, just like MMRCAs will be, but these fighters will be replaced in numbers by nearly the same numbers of FGFA.
There are other reasons for AMCA, but not an operational requirement or need in IAF!


----------



## Black Widow

sancho said:


> Didn't get your point why air superiority fighters are more expensive, but all MKIs are multi role fighters for and although I also think that sometimes it's more useful to have specialised fighters/aircrafts, the general increase of MRCA is very logical. Today IAF fleet is pretty much half A2A fighters, half A2G, because most of them are single role fighters only. So even if a total of 707 fighters (according BRs fleet strenght) sounds high, not all of them can be used for air defence and very few only for credible strikes. With the upgrades of M2Ks and Mig 29s + the induction of LCAs, MMRCAs and more MKIs for Mig 21s and 27, IAF will have more fighters useful for air defence *AND * strikes, which makes them automatically more capable.
> My objection however is, that beeing multi role capable, doesn't automatically means you are good in all roles. I don't think an F18SH is a very good air defence fighter, just like I don't think the EF would be a very good strike fighter. So while inducting multi role combat aircrafts, there should be a focus on a balanced fleet as well and why I think IAF badly needs a fighter like Rafale, next to LCA, MKI/FGFA in future, that adds more capabilities in the strike role. It's good performance in A2A is just a bonus, but with al ready 3 fighters designed for A2A, adding the EF with so low A2G capabilities simply doesn't make sense.
> Same reason why I would prefer an AURA UCAV over AMCA, because it balances the capabilities of the IAF fleet way better than AMCA could do, besides the advantages that it's more cost-effective and can be deployed in higher numbers.




From Wikipedia:: "An air superiority fighter is a type of fighter aircraft intended to gain air superiority in a war, by entering and seizing control of enemy airspace. Air superiority fighters are designed to effectively engage enemy fighters, more than other types of aircraft. They are* usually more expensive and procured in fewer numbers than multirole fighters.*" 

I agree with rest of your post. 





I don't know IAF configuration, I don't know if all MKIs will be Multirole or few of them will be Air-Superiority fighter only... Only a good analyst can answer it...


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## sancho

Black Widow said:


> From Wikipedia:: "An air superiority fighter is a type of fighter aircraft intended to gain air superiority in a war, by entering and seizing control of enemy airspace. Air superiority fighters are designed to effectively engage enemy fighters, more than other types of aircraft. They are* usually more expensive and procured in fewer numbers than multirole fighters.*"
> 
> I agree with rest of your post.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know IAF configuration, I don't know if all MKIs will be Multirole or few of them will be Air-Superiority fighter only... Only a good analyst can answer it...


 
That's just a general statement, but has nothing to do with MKI. All Flankers above the initial Su 27 are multi role fighters, be it the Su 30, 33, 34, or 35 and the MKI is just a customised Su 30.


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## sancho

*More detailed report from the Swiss competition!*



> *Rafale, the favorite*
> 
> avia news, sept 15
> 
> The National Council voted today the credit necessary to purchase 22 new fighter jets, which boosts the purchasing program!...
> 
> *...Evaluation results:*
> 
> According to official results sent by Armasuisse, test results are as follows:
> *1 Rafale*
> 2 Eurofighter
> 3 Gripen C / D (Gripen NG is proposed now, but could not participate in the evaluation).
> 
> The Rafale as favorite
> 
> The industrial partnership:
> 
> The industrial consortium Rafale International - composed of Dassault Aviation, Snecma (Safra Group) and Thales, MBDA and its subcontractors are able to offer a Swiss industrial and scientific cooperation for the benefit of all its cantons. This offer affects the whole range of suppliers ie: the military with the Rafale, but also the civilian sector, which includes programs for Falcon business jets, the calendar type CFM56 engines and avionics for aircraft and helicopters. Some elements of the Rafale already occurred in Switzerland (glass cockpit, fuel tank and more recently additional elements of the radar Thales RBE2).
> 
> *The offer provides the outsourcing of many structural components, final assembly and maintenance in Switzerland for the entire program Rafale as well as research and development. The manufacture of weapons (missiles MICA) is also proposed and the development of helmet-mounted sight GERFAUT are also concerned systems such as the system of self-protection spectrum and the second generation of OSF.*
> 
> According to Dassault, the Rafale aircraft would be the best for our country, because a close collaboration with both military and industry are encouraged. In addition, the latest version (F3 +) tested in Switzerland responded to 95% in the specifications and offers the following possibilities:
> 
> -ability to flight mode "Supercruise."
> -Short take-off.
> -Range and capacity for prolonged flight long surveillance missions.
> -Fast implementation including soldiers of the militia.
> -Easy integration of the works already constructed.
> 
> Multisensor system proposed:
> 
> The proposed version of the Rafale for our country is the most recent available is the standard 04T with the wiring for the METEOR missile, the Damocles pod XF and the new architecture IDM. The unit will have:
> 
> -AESA radar Thales RBE-2AA.
> -SPECTRA autopotection system.
> -OSF (Front Sector optics) next generation.
> -In connection 16 (Link16) next generation (MIDS).
> -Data fusion system NCW (Net Centric Warfare).
> 
> Also, it is not excluded that a more powerful version of SNECMA M-88 will be available (to be confirmed in relation to the contract in the UAE).
> 
> 
> *The offer for the Eurofighter:*
> 
> Industrial cooperation
> 
> Industrial cooperation based on the group formed by the Eurofighter partner companies such as Alenia Aeronautica (Italy), BAE Systems (Great Britain) and EADS (Germany and Spain), responsible for development and production of the Eurofighter. The company responsible for developing the engine of the Eurofighter GmbH is EUROJET, whose shareholders are Rolls-Royce (Great Britain), MTU Aero Engines (Germany) Avio SpA (Italy) and ITP Industria de Turbo Propulsores SA (Spain). In addition, the Eurofighter consortium is completed by over 400 international contractors and their parent companies or affiliates.
> 
> According to EADS, Eurofighter aircraft suited for missions in the mountains and especially in the airspace of Switzerland meets the following requirements:
> 
> * steep gradients of approach and departure air bases in altitude
> * *extremely short take-off distance without post-combustion, including full load
> * less noise and exhaust
> * capacity "Supercruise" (ability to reach supersonic speed without turning on the heats), including full load
> * prolonged flight time in the police missions and air surveillance of the airspace, which reduces the required fleet
> * arrived very quickly in the mission area.
> 
> Facilities:
> 
> The integrated management of the mission and armament for the Eurofighter merges data from all the various sensors and the arrival of the AESA radar "Captor-E." The man-machine interface optimized "Carefree Handling" the discharge of certain tasks. Furthermore, multifunction displays, autopilot modes and a voice control system allows the pilot to concentrate fully on its mission.
> 
> Multisensor system proposed:
> 
> * Radar AESA CAPTOR-E
> * System PIRATE (Passive Infrared Airborne Tracking Equipment).
> * MIDS / Link 16 (-Multifunction Information Distribution System-).
> * DASS Chaff / Flares (Defensive Aids Sub-System).
> * Pod-measures against electronic towed.
> 
> The supply of Gripen...
> 
> ...Comments:
> 
> To date, the Rafale from favorite to not only thanks to its excellent test scores but also by the offers in industry. The plane corresponds to the budget and offers excellent prospects for modernization. Eurofighter in turn improves technically, but suffers in terms of cost! It is indeed the most expensive to buy and obviously exceed (according to list price) the budget of Switzerland, its maintenance is also the most expensive! Gripen seemed well placed, but the version C / D tested is exceeded and the "NG" suffering for the time lag in its development and may therefore be too late, it seems more industrial supply lack of collateral.
> 
> It should nevertheless expect the update offers, but it is true that Dassault Aviation could win the bid and offer our two countries a new era in aviation cooperation! *


*

http://translate.google.at/translate?hl=de&sl=fr&tl=en&u=http://psk.blog.24heures.ch/*


----------



## sudhir007

The Hindu : News / National : IAF hopes to finalise combat aircraft deal by year-end

Hoping to finalise the multi-billion dollar combat aircraft deal by the year-end, Indian Air Force on Thursday said the commercial bids of two short-listed vendors in the MMRCA tender would be opened by middle of next month.

We have a meeting of the Defence Acquisition Council on October 7 where some of the issues are going to be discussed. Once those issued are cleared, hopefully by the middle of month, we should be in a position to open the bids, Air Chief Marshal N.A.K. Browne said in New Delhi.

He was asked to comment on the acquisition schedule of these aircraft which are expected to be inducted in the IAF by 2014.

Air Chief Marshal Browne was talking to reporters on the sidelines of the Sixth International Conference on Energising Indian Aerospace Industry organised by Confederation of Indian Industry (CII).

Earlier, addressing the conference, the IAF Chief said, We are in final stages of this process (of signing the contract for MMRCA) and (it will be done) hopefully by the end of the year.

On the offset value of the deal, he said, Offsets for this programme amount to Rs. 20,000 crore plus and these are going to be in service for over a period of 13 years.

To a query on comparison between Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) and MMRCA, he said, These are two different kinds of aeroplanes. MMRCA does not have stealth features and super cruise capability while FGFA has all that.

FGFA has recess armament base where all the missiles and weapons are located inside the aircraft, which gives it a certain amount of stealth potential, he said.

India is developing the FGFA as a joint venture with Russia.


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## angeldemon_007

Defence ministry panel to consider combat jet deal next month News


----------



## sancho

> *'As we move forward, I think we'll see more cooperation'*
> 
> A 'strategic partner', France is now pitching for even more robust military ties with India. Big numbers are involved. After the Rs 23,562-crore Scorpene submarine construction programme and aRs 10,947-crore upgrade of 51 Mirage-2000 fighters in the Indian Air Force, France is now eyeing India's Rs 42,000-crore medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) project to acquire top-notch fighters - American, Russian and Swedish jets have been ejected from this race. French Air Force chief General Jean-Paul Palomeros spoke with Rajat Pandit on expanding ties:
> 
> *How would you describe current bilateral defence ties?*
> 
> India and France have a very good strategic relationship. In the military arena, it ranges from joint R&D to operational interoperability. The two armed forces share professional, fruitful and enduring ties, with wide-ranging cooperation in operational concepts and equipment. We shared our experi-ences in out-of-area operations in Africa, Afghanistan and recently, Libya, which were very interesting for IAF.
> 
> *What's on the anvil for the future?*
> 
> The two armed forces will continue to work together, with regular joint exercises, delegation-level exchanges and sharing of experiences. Planning for the next 'Garuda' joint air combat exercise, for instance, has already begun, to be held in 2013 or 2014. We want it to touch a new high.
> 
> As we move forward, i think we will see more cooperation in areas like unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs), new-generation fighters, mid-air tankers, flight safety, training and tactical ballistic missile defence. All fields are open.
> 
> We must work together on futuristic technologies - which is what strategic partnership is all about. France, for instance, has the Neuron UCAV (combat UAVs) programme with six European countries...UCAVs can be part of our strategic partnership.
> 
> *Some are critical about the exorbitant price of the Mirage-2000 upgrade project?*
> 
> Mirages are very robust and capable platforms. IAF chief Air Chief Marshal N A K Browne in fact told me he is very happy with his Mirage fleet. The upgrade will give new life and capabilities to the fighters. The deal was fair and finalised after thorough Indian assessment. It's a win-win situation for both.
> 
> Even the future plans of the French Air Force revolve around two fighters, new-generation Rafales and upgraded Mirages. We used both in Libya. The aim is to modernise with induction of new-generation fighters as well as upgrading the best among the existing fleet. IAF is also looking to modernise in a similar way.
> *
> How does the Rafale match up with the Eurofighter Typhoon, the two finalists of the Indian MMRCA race?*
> 
> Rafale demonstrated its full capability during the Libya operations. We had 90 to 95% serviceability as well as reduced maintenance costs of both Rafales and Mirages. During the first three days, French air force was the only air force flying over Libya. We were able to enforce the no-fly zone as well as strike Gaddafi's forces with precision and minimum collateral damage. Rafale's digital reconnaissance pods provided a lot of intelligence in real-time for the strikes.
> 
> I do not want to compare fighters but Rafale was designed as a multi-role platform from the very beginning. It has been a real success, as shown in Afghanistan, Libya and elsewhere. I must also stress Rafale is nuclear-capable. It has real growth potential. France will be more than happy to develop it with India. It is, of course, up to India to now select the best platform it needs.



'As we move forward, I think we'll see more cooperation' - The Times of India

Reactions: Like Like:
2


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## AkhandIndia

If the Indian M-MRCA fighter competition wasn't quite surreal enough, in comes an Indian politician-economist, notably re-energized by his current association with India's "anti-corruption" movement and India's monumental telecom scam investigation, to stir the pot some more. A known fire-bomber with an unabashed antipathy to India's ruling Congress party, Subramanian Swamy has now apparently trained his ire at the IAF's $12-billion M-MRCA fighter deal.

Swamy, officially leader of the Janata Party, but best known for years as a voluble and dogged government baiter on all matters graft, says he has written to Indian Prime Minister Dr Manmohan Singh making some very dramatic allegations. The letter (full text in image above) was written on April 29, two days after the dramatic M-MRCA elimination. Like all his letters, this one says that it draws on "inside information" from within the government. Let's get to the contents:

*Swamy writes: "My sources indicate that the pre-determined decision to favour the French aircraft [Dassault's Rafale] was the outcome of several conversations between the wife of French President Ms. Carla Bruni and the Chairperson of the National Advisory Council Ms. Sonia Gandhi, and surprisingly also with two foreign nationals who are the sisters of Ms. Sonia Gandhi."
*
It is not clear what information Swamy has based his allegations on.

At the very least, it should be said that Subramanian Swamy was once quite aptly described by a leading news weekly as "the Professor Moriarty to Sonia's Sherlock Holmes", so there shouldn't be any real surprise that the target of his letter is specifically the Congress Party president. That said, the allegations he makes are indubitably explosive. Swamy's letter refers to "credible information" in his possession, but says nothing about what this credible information is. It is not clear if he has shared any further information with the Prime Minister apart from this letter.

*The operative part of his letter goes: "Based on some credible information given to me on the conversation between Ms. Carla Bruni and Ms Sonia Gandhis sisters, there has been an agreement of the French to pay a hefty bribe for favouring the purchase of French aircrafts."
*
Interestingly, a popular Indian military commentator has made a slightly backhanded allusion to pretty much the same thing today. In this column published in today's Pioneer,* Maj Gen (Retd) Ashok Mehta writes, "The IAF favours the Rafale not the least because the French are promising the moon. There is also a high level back channel Italian connection, they say." So either the columnist has read Subramanian Swamy's letter, or has his own "insiders", in which case, as you've no doubt guessed, we have two prominent Indian figures saying that the Rafale has already been chosen to win the M-MRCA competition, and that it took a high-level government connection -- Swamy names Sonia Gandhi, the Maj Gen her nationality -- to work it through.*

It should be reiterated that neither of these controversial assertions has been backed in substance -- at least as far as I know -- in either the letter or the column. We'll have to see where this goes.



> i thought sonia will support EFT due to italy connection


----------



## Abingdonboy

AkhandIndia said:


> If the Indian M-MRCA fighter competition wasn't quite surreal enough, in comes an Indian politician-economist, notably re-energized by his current association with India's "anti-corruption" movement and India's monumental telecom scam investigation, to stir the pot some more. A known fire-bomber with an unabashed antipathy to India's ruling Congress party, Subramanian Swamy has now apparently trained his ire at the IAF's $12-billion M-MRCA fighter deal.
> 
> Swamy, officially leader of the Janata Party, but best known for years as a voluble and dogged government baiter on all matters graft, says he has written to Indian Prime Minister Dr Manmohan Singh making some very dramatic allegations. The letter (full text in image above) was written on April 29, two days after the dramatic M-MRCA elimination. Like all his letters, this one says that it draws on "inside information" from within the government. Let's get to the contents:
> 
> *SwQamy writes: "My sources indicate that the pre-determined decision to favour the French aircraft [Dassault's Rafale] was the outcome of several conversations between the wife of French President Ms. Carla Bruni and the Chairperson of the National Advisory Council Ms. Sonia Gandhi, and surprisingly also with two foreign nationals who are the sisters of Ms. Sonia Gandhi."
> *
> It is not clear what information Swamy has based his allegations on.
> 
> At the very least, it should be said that Subramanian Swamy was once quite aptly described by a leading news weekly as "the Professor Moriarty to Sonia's Sherlock Holmes", so there shouldn't be any real surprise that the target of his letter is specifically the Congress Party president. That said, the allegations he makes are indubitably explosive. Swamy's letter refers to "credible information" in his possession, but says nothing about what this credible information is. It is not clear if he has shared any further information with the Prime Minister apart from this letter.
> 
> *The operative part of his letter goes: "Based on some credible information given to me on the conversation between Ms. Carla Bruni and Ms Sonia Gandhis sisters, there has been an agreement of the French to pay a hefty bribe for favouring the purchase of French aircrafts."
> *
> Interestingly, a popular Indian military commentator has made a slightly backhanded allusion to pretty much the same thing today. In this column published in today's Pioneer,* Maj Gen (Retd) Ashok Mehta writes, "The IAF favours the Rafale not the least because the French are promising the moon. There is also a high level back channel Italian connection, they say." So either the columnist has read Subramanian Swamy's letter, or has his own "insiders", in which case, as you've no doubt guessed, we have two prominent Indian figures saying that the Rafale has already been chosen to win the M-MRCA competition, and that it took a high-level government connection -- Swamy names Sonia Gandhi, the Maj Gen her nationality -- to work it through.*
> 
> It should be reiterated that neither of these controversial assertions has been backed in substance -- at least as far as I know -- in either the letter or the column. We'll have to see where this goes.


 
I don't feel there is very much credibility in these allegations as it was the IAF that conducted trails and made their recommendations where the MoD followed. In such a high profile program I don't think anyone would risk incriminating themselves as the consequences would be HUGE and would most likely incur serious prison time. If the F-16IN and Gripen had been the two favoured THEN we could smell somthing fishy but it is no coincidence the two strutted candidates got through to the final 2.


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## air marshal

*IAF works to seal 126 fighter jet deal*

The commercial bids for a $ 10-billion contract to buy 126 multi-role combat jets will be opened after the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) clears pending issues in October, Indian Air Force (IAF) chief NAK Browne said on Thursday.

The contest has narrowed down to two European contenders - Rafale and Eurofighter Typhoon. The opening of the commercial bids has been delayed, causing anxiety among the contestants.

The air chief has now clarified that the DAC, chaired by defence minister A. K. Antony, will meet on October 7 to sort out pending issues.

The ministry hopes to seal the deal at the earliest - by the year end - as it wants the new aircraft to refurbish its dwindling fleet. The combat jet squadron strength has touched a critical low. The IAF hopes to turn even by 2016 when the new aircraft is expected to start arriving.

Browne supports a wider role for private industry in military aviation. Speaking at a seminar on aerospace industry, he talked about the need to check overdependence on foreign buyers. At the moment, the private Indian participation in India's military aviation is nil.

The IAF has a Rs. 97,000-crore acquisition plan for maintaining the momentum of modernisation. It hopes that by 2014-15, it will be able to turn the corner. Under the modernisation drive, several new platforms are being added.

The IAF has received C-130 Hercules, a new transport aircraft; C-17 Globemasters have also been ordered.

IAF works to seal 126 fighter jet deal : North: News India Today


----------



## Lord Of Gondor

Photos: Lockheed Martin F-16IN Super Viper Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net
Shahid Kapoor in the UAEAF Block-60 Falcon.


----------



## Yeti

Rafael has confirmed that it is in the advanced stages of developing a fifth-generation version of its Litening targeting pod.

The new version is being developed with features that will facilitate its installation on large unmanned air systems, such as the Israel Aerospace Industries Heron TP.

Israel-based Rafael has so far sold well over 1,000 Litening pods to 27 customers around the world. According to its updated forecast, demand for the system will amount to at least 500 more over the next five to seven years.

The design is currently being evaluated by operators of the Eurofighter Typhoon and Saab Gripen, and as part of the Indian air force's medium multi-role combat aircraft contest - which pits the Typhoon against the Dassault Rafale. It also could be integrated with the Brazilian air force's Embraer/Alenia AMX strike aircraft.

Rafael teamed up with Northrop Grumman to market the Litening pod in the USA market and in some other markets.

The company's current Litening G4 product uses a digital 1,024x1,024 pixel forward-looking infrared sensor and an improved TV sensor for daytime imaging. A data link system also enables it to receive data inputs from multiple sources, without requiring further modifications to the pod or host aircraft.

According to Rafael sources, the new version will have better range and resolution characteristics, and "be capable of producing more useful data from each image".

Rafael confirms work on fifth-generation Litening pod


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## Abingdonboy

^^^ so as it is part of MMRCA it is likely to become the standard targeting pod amongst IAF replacing existing Litening of the current IAF fleet. Good to know IAF is ahead of the curve.


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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> ^^^ so as it is part of MMRCA it is likely to become the standard targeting pod amongst IAF replacing existing Litening of the current IAF fleet. Good to know IAF is ahead of the curve.



I think the article means that EF is offered with the Litening pod, just like the Gripen was, while the Rafale will be with Damocles, possibly the new XF version and not that it is part of the MMRCA in general.


----------



## Dash

sancho said:


> I think the article means that EF is offered with the Litening pod, just like the Gripen was, while the Rafale will be with Damocles, possibly the new XF version and not that it is part of the MMRCA in general.



I was wondering the same thing, will teh new Ddemocles be in MRCA? I dont think so...


----------



## sancho

Dash said:


> I was wondering the same thing, will teh new Ddemocles be in MRCA? I dont think so...


Depends when it will be available, but it was offered in the Swiss competition as well, that's why I think it was in MMRCA as well. However, I wouldn't rule out the option of integrating Litening into Rafale incase we choose it, we might have to pay for the integration, but the commonality to the rest of the IAF fleet would be worth it. The Mirage 2000 upgrade might get a hint on that as well, I think IAF will integrate Litening pod (if it isn't already) instead of Damocles.


----------



## Dash

sancho said:


> Depends when it will be available, but it was offered in the Swiss competition as well, that's why I think it was in MMRCA as well. However, I wouldn't rule out the option of integrating Litening into Rafale incase we choose it, we might have to pay for the integration, but the commonality to the rest of the IAF fleet would be worth it. The Mirage 2000 upgrade might get a hint on that as well, I think IAF will integrate Litening pod (if it isn't already) instead of Damocles.



Till date we havent seen any French aircraft using other PODs apart from French ones. Though Its a very good system yet French wont allow it. There were speculations of Mirage getting litening pod but nothing happened on that line and you know that. 

and I am also pretty unsure its compatibility with French Bombs and even if we try to integrate it then it might escalate the cost. However if 126 fighter comes from France then Democles will be the better choice IMO.

The interesting point is EF uses litening Pod and this could be an advantage on EF side to tally the balance sheet but again Rafale will balance out in commonality with Mirage and may be the Mirage will have Democles eventually.


----------



## sancho

Dash said:


> and I am also pretty unsure its compatibility with French Bombs and even if we try to integrate it then it might escalate the cost.



The only French bomb is the AASM and the laser guided version is still under development, so it not necessarily needs an LDP. The French forces used it with the GPS version, to get additional GPS data for more precise strikes. I wouldn't expect any compability issues there and the integration of Litening wouldn't meant that IAF would need to buy new once, but that they can share the older once not only with Russian fighters, but with LCA and Rafale as well! You don't need an LDP for each fighter, often you use one fighter providing laser guidance for others as well and then it depends on what's more expensive? Integrating Litening on Rafale, or buying completely new Damocles pods.
For EF litening pod and Paveway kits are the only commonality that they have to IAF fleet, so yes that a point for it, but that point is gone the minute we talk about operational advantages, because the lack of a dedicated LDP hardpoint is a major operational disadvantage.


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## SpArK

BAE Systems: Workers take hit as defence firm kills off home of the Hawk | This is Hull and East Riding


----------



## Abingdonboy

SpArK said:


> BAE Systems: Workers take hit as defence firm kills off home of the Hawk | This is Hull and East Riding



Interesting, these developments are very much India-centric- BAE HAWK now made in India, job cuts to reduce price of EFT to make it more competitive with Rafele for MMRCA.


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## SpArK

MMRCA commercial bids to be out after the DAC meeting of Oct 7th


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## POPS

SpArK said:


> MMRCA commercial bids to be out after the DAC meeting of Oct 7th


Really sir hope its not a false alarm this time


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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> Interesting, these developments are very much India-centric- BAE HAWK now made in India, job cuts to reduce price of EFT to make it more competitive with Rafele for MMRCA.



Just shows how desperate they are, it must be a slap in the face of their own workers! However, the reduction of the production rate is aslo confirming, that the partners don't plan with a follow order of T3Bs anymore and will cancel the orders, just like Italy did already. It's either India or Japan, or no future for the EF at all!


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## SpArK

POPS said:


> Really sir hope its *not a false alarm* this time



I never give any.

---------- Post added at 08:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:07 PM ----------

Also among the issues to be discussed at the DAC&#8200;meeting scheduled for October 7, *the effect of falling value of the rupee on the deal, price optimisation and offset proposals made* .


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## jha

Lets hope the bids expire...

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## sancho

jha said:


> Lets hope the bids expire...


I'm afraid not even that would help any of those fighters you supported mate.


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## WHITESMOKE

jha said:


> Lets hope the bids expire...


Jha ji... you always hope this i know


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## SpArK

Brazil in 'Urgent' Need Of Fighter Jets: Minister - Defense News

Swap our minister with that guy..

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## angeldemon_007

^^^
But Brazil has already said that they won't be purchasing this year.

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## jha

*Meet on MMRCA deal on Oct 7*



> The future of India&#8217;s contract for 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) hinges on the decisions that would be taken at the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) meeting to be held on on October 7.
> An officer told FE on condition of anonymity: &#8220;At the DAC meeting, the offset proposals of the two shortlisted contenders will be discussed. Depending on the decisions taken and relaxations made in the proposal concerned, the commercial bids for the $10.4-billion deal will be opened on October 10.&#8221;
> Also among the issues to be discussed at the DAC would be the effect of falling value of the rupee on the deal, and price optimisation. If the deal has to be executed this year, with the falling rupee, there could be a considerable cost escalation even at current prices.


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## Birbal

angeldemon_007 said:


> ^^^
> But Brazil has already said that they won't be purchasing this year.



Yeah Brazil has been even slower in its acquisition than India, though that's more due to the government rather than the MoD.


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## angeldemon_007

^^^
MOD is actually government and FYI the present President Dilma Rousseff was actually defence minister before the present one. So everyone are the same, nobody is stopping anyone. The thing is Brazil don't really need fighter jets immediately so the government is thinking of defence cut so as to cope up with economic slowdown.


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## SpArK

*MMRCA Final Meet Friday, Bids Open Month-end*









IAF chief Air Chief Marshal Norman Browne today said the* two final commercial bids in the Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) -- from Dassault for the Rafale and EADS for the Typhoon -- will be opened by the end of this month. On October 7, the MoD's Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) will hold a final meeting on the programme, and, according to the IAF chief, "sort out any final issues before the bids are opened".*

Livefist: MMRCA Final Meet Friday, Bids Open Month-end

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## SpArK

Great video on the hornets..

Wings of change for F/A-18, EA-18G programs (Video)


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## sancho

SpArK said:


> Brazil in 'Urgent' Need Of Fighter Jets: Minister - Defense News
> 
> Swap our minister with that guy..



No thanks! Brazilian officials, be it their presidents, def mins, or even from their air force openly stated their opinons and preferences for certain contenders, which actually is bad for negotiations and very unprofessional imo. Compare that to MMRCA and the behaviours of GoI, MoD, or IAF! Most of what we heared was speculations by the media and all official statements were very general to not give away any much of the important stuff (except the 2 issues with bribes at Aero India and that some docs got leaked). That's why we still don't know anything about the speculated disqualification of Rafale, or what the offer of the French really inclueds unlike in Brazil, or even Switzerland. So although we have a bad reputation in India and the world about bribes, difficult bureaucracy and uncertain delays, one have to say, MoD and IAF still did a good job in MMRCA, especially compared to their Brazilian counterparts.


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## SpArK

> "As far as the product line is concerned, all our 5 business areas are represented in the country. Aeronautics- *we are still promoting the Gripen NG*



MACHINIST - Saab AB sets up wholly owned subsidiary in India  Saab India Technologies


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## SQ8

Come Friday.. which is expected to have the better offer??

*This*


















*OR THIS*

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## King123

I think most likely we will Buy Rafale. I don't find major difference in both. Both are best. Both are providing AESA Radar and all possible features.


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## Birbal

I'm hoping Rafale. Biggest reason being looks. 

Of course, I do think the Rafale is the better choice, given that it is manufactured by one company, making supplies easier, and it's likely going to be somewhat cheaper. Furthermore, it'll have significant commonality with the Mirage-2000 that India has.

In terms of electronics, from what little information is available, the two are pretty evenly matched, with EFT having the better sensors and Rafale having the better EW capabilities.

Raw performance is practically identical, with the EFT slightly more optimized for high altitude high performance, and the Rafale more optimized for low altitude low speed performance.

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## Bagee

sancho said:


> Just shows how desperate they are, it must be a slap in the face of their own workers! However, the reduction of the production rate is also confirming, that the partners don't plan with a follow order of T3Bs anymore and will cancel the orders, just like Italy did already. It's either India or Japan, or no future for the EF at all!


that only time will tell and let tell u if this deals go we will see the largest no. of fighters sold in the next decade to be EFT and yes what u said implies for Rafael as well at least EFT has been bought by some and KSA plans to buy more but poor Rafael being such a capable fighter has not found a buyer yet statement apart don't say Brazil will buy it only time will tell ironic isn't it both have to win i guess more desperate situation for Rafael it seems ...........


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## sancho

Santro said:


> Come Friday.. which is expected to have the better offer??



Nobody can tell you that, because not the price alone will be important, but the offer as a whole! It is expected that the Rafale is cheaper per unit and to operate, so might be L1 in this field, but that doesn't meant their offer is the best. If the EF consortium offers much ToT, industrial and political advantages to counter the higher costs, their total offer could turn out to be more worth it and since MMRCA is not a normal fighter replacement, it will be the best package that makes the difference!




Bagee said:


> that only time will tell and let tell u if this deals go we will see the largest no. of fighters sold in the next decade to be EFT and yes what u said implies for Rafael as well at least EFT has been bought by some and KSA plans to buy more but poor Rafael being such a capable fighter has not found a buyer yet statement apart don't say Brazil will buy it only time will tell ironic isn't it both have to win i guess more desperate situation for Rafael it seems ...........



We don't need time to understand how desperate the EF consortium is, just look at the current situation of the fighter, the further developments and the orders of the EF partners and the situation is more than clear!

EF is clearly less capable than the Rafale, because the EF partners don't commit themselfs to upgrade it, like France does. They simply haven't the money to do it now, because of the financial crisis and big defence budget cuts, not to mention that they have other commitments like the F35 and are switching to UAV developments at the moment, which makes follow orders of EF not needed.
All this makes clear why they are badly searching not only for a normal export order, but for a new partner country, that could take over some of the fundings to upgrade EF and make it more useful or interesting for other export customers. That's why they extended the productionline for 2 more years, with the hope that India, or Japan would join.

Dassault on the other hand can be pretty cool at the moment! France is constantly funding further developments and ordering more fighters, with the productionline to be busy beyond 2020 only for the French orders.
UAE is close to be the first export customer, with 60 fighters and it's not a competition, but a single fighter evaluation, which makes it much easier.
Swiss evaluated all 3 Eurocanards and found out that Rafale is the best fighter, is cheaper than EF per unit and to operate + offers good side advantages. Since they currently have an advantage of their currency over the EURO, they even pushing forward to a decision as soon as possible and a deal for up to 22 Rafales is in sight as well.
In Brazil the former President and Defence minister, as well as the current officials openly stated that the Rafale is the prefered fighter, with the only problem that it is also the most expensive in that competition and Brazil is cutting the defence budget as well.

So these prospects alone makes clear, that Dassault is not as desperate as the EF consortium, because even if they have no export customer yet, the future looks way, way brighter for them than for he EF at the moment! 

For India that means, choosing Rafale means choosing the best suiting fighter for IAF (and IN), the cheapest option and the one with the better future potential, all they now have to offer to seal the deal is a good industrial package!

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## desimorty

who ever offers ToT of engines and AESA radars, more importantly the engines.


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## sancho

jatt said:


> who ever offers ToT of engines and AESA radars, more importantly the engines.



Both offers this, that's one advantage that we shortlisted these 2, the interesting part will be who offers more and under which conditions.


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## satishkumarcsc

sancho said:


> Both offers this, that's one advantage that we shortlisted these 2, the interesting part will be who offers more and under which conditions.



Well dosent the RDY-2 operate with Gallium Arsenide instead of the latest Gallium nitride in their AESA Radars? Will this be some kind of obstruction to the Rafale and give the EFT a chance?


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## acetophenol

will w know the winner on friday?


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## Thundersword

acetophenol said:


> will w know the winner on friday?



I don't think so..... NAK said bids to be opened in the third week.......


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## Paan Singh

i think this contract will take another year to be finalize


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## Thundersword

Prism said:


> i think this contract will take another year to be finalize



nope it's before december or never..... remember the bids will expire in december????............


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## SpArK

> *Today* the the Defence acquisition council headed by defence minister AK Antony will finally sit down to clear the last hurdle before the bids are opened.
> 
> After much delay and anxiety in the MMRCA deal, if all goes well tomorrow and companies make past the final hurdle India will be close to one step closer to history in the making.



India's biggest military deal- TIMESNOW.tv - Latest Breaking News, Big News Stories, News Videos

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## SpArK

*Post govt nod, Typhoon, Rafale lock target on mega deal*









New Delhi: India moved one step ahead towards finalising the M-MRCA deal with the Defence Ministry today paving the way for opening the commercial bids of two shortlisted vendors by approving their offset proposals.

After the bids are opened, the Defence Ministry will be able to determine the lowest bidder in the deal for 126 Medium-Multi Role Combat Aircraft (M-MRCA) and decide who will ultimately get the contract described as the mother of all deals.

*At a meeting chaired by Defence Minister A K Antony, the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) cleared the offset evaluation report of Dassault Rafale and Eurofighter Typhoon, the two remaining contenders, Defence Ministry officials said in New Delhi.
*

*All the spade work for the opening of bids have been completed. Opening of the bids will be done in a few days in the presence of the two vendors, they said.*

As per the offset clause, foreign vendors bagging deals worth over Rs 300 crore are supposed to invest back 30 percent of the worth of the contract in Indian defence industry.

In M-MRCA, the vendors will have to invest 50 percent of the worth of the deal.

*No date has been specified for opening of the bids but it will happen soon, the officials said.
*
The offset proposals of the two companies were tabled before the DAC by Director General (Acquisition) Vivek Rae.

Besides the Defence Minister, the two-hour meeting was attended by the three Service chiefs, the Defence Secretary, the Secretarym, Defence Production, the DG (Acquisition) and concerned joint secretaries in the Ministry.

After the bids are opened to evaluate the lowest bidder, the proposal will move to the Finance Ministry for its approval and it will then go to the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) for final nod by the government.


Post govt nod, Typhoon, Rafale lock target on mega deal | Firstpost


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## sancho

satishkumarcsc said:


> Well dosent the RDY-2 operate with Gallium Arsenide instead of the latest Gallium nitride in their AESA Radars? Will this be some kind of obstruction to the Rafale and give the EFT a chance?



RDY 2 is the radar of the upgraded Mirage 2000-5, the Rafale currently uses the RBE 2 PESA and the version offered in MMRCA will have the RBE 2 AESA radar. No AESA radar today uses GaN modules and the Europeans has joint developments in that area, but lead by EADS (inluding the French part) and Thales. It is expected that the first operational GaN modules will be integrated into SPECTRA and later into RBE 2 AESA. The Eurofighter will get GaN modules in future too, but since not even the current radar is in a proper development stage, this can take quiet some time!
So in MMRCA this won't play a big role, other than the future potential with GaN modules looks brighter for Rafale, since it's more likely to get that tech and get is earlier than EF, just like the AESA radar in general.


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## drunken-monke

Just heard ACM Browne, the final Bids for the MMRCA would be opened in 10 days in his speech on the occasion of 79th Anniversary of IAF. This comes to a signficant declaration in the process. He also said the final phase of the project would be completed on fast track. As I am writing this post, he is still delivering his speech..


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## ramu

drunken-monke said:


> Just heard ACM Browne, the final Bids for the MMRCA would be opened in 10 days in his speech on the occasion of 79th Anniversary of IAF. This comes to a signficant declaration in the process. He also said the final phase of the project would be completed on fast track. As I am writing this post, he is still delivering his speech..



Can you give a link please ? In which channel ???


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## angeldemon_007

StratPost


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## jha

*MMRCA Bids Open 10 Days From Now: IAF Chief*


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## kanpur

jha said:


>



tumko dekh kar din bada acha nikalta hai yaar jha sahab.


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## SpArK

*IAF to seal combat plane deal in November
*

Hindon (Ghaziabad): *The winner of India's $10.4-billion tender for 126 combat aircraft is expected to be announced in November, Indian Air Force (IAF) chief Air Chief Marshal Norman Anil Kumar Browne said Saturday.*

Browne's assertion comes a day after the acquisition council led by Defence Minister A.K. Antony gave its go-ahead for the opening of commercial bids from European consortium EADS Cassidian and French Dassault, after clearing the ministry's report on their offset proposals.

"*In the middle of November, we shall be able to announce to the whole world which plane we have selected, the L1 vendor (lowest bidder),"* Browne said in his interaction with reporters after he inspected the 79th Air Force Day parade here.

Earlier in his address to the air warriors, Browne said: "The process for acquisition of the MMRCA (Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft) is in its last lap and *we should be able to open the bids in 10 days' time from now."*

However, explaining the complexities involved in finalising the winner, the IAF chief said that *after opening of the commercial bids, "complex calculations" would be done in a tabular format of the entire life-cycle cost, the acquisition cost and the technology transfer.*

*"It may take two to three weeks to calculate these," he added.
*

EADS Cassidian has offered its Eurofighter Typhoon and Dassault its Rafale to the IAF, which is looking at inducting these aircraft from the beginning of 2015.

The two planes had been shortlisted in April this year after eliminating other competitors -- American Boeing's F/A-18, Lockheed Martin's F-16, Russian UAC's MiG-35 and Swedish Saab's Gripen -- through a rigorous technical and weapons evaluation process that lasted for over a year.

India had issued the tender for the 126 planes in August 2007 and has reached a stage of finalisation of the tender just over four years, a remarkable feat considering that it has as a norm taken over two decades for it to finalise deals for other defence equipment.

Manorama Online | IAF to seal combat plane deal in November

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## jha

*Biggest defence deal proposal okayed*



> The defence ministry on Friday approved the offset proposals for India&#8217;s biggest defence deal to buy 126 fighter planes at an estimate price of Rs 42,000 crore ($ 10.4 billion) paving the way for opening the commercial bids around Diwali.
> 
> Two European fighters &#8211; French Rafale and Eurofighter Typhoon &#8211; are in the fray after the first round of selection overtaking four other competitors including two US fighters. India wants to close the deal before March 31, 2012.
> 
> Indian Air Force chief N A K Browne, who attended Friday&#8217;s Defence Acquisition Council meeting, stated on Monday that the DAC meet is the last internal defence ministry meeting before the bids are opened by the third or fourth week of October.
> 
> Even though defence ministry officials are tight-lipped about the details of the DAC decisions, the panel headed by Defence Minister A K Antony is understood to have taken the final decision on the controversial offset issues associated with the medium multi-role combat aircraft deal





> Together with Su-30 MKI, indigenous Light Combat Aircraft Tejas, Indo-Russian fifth generation fighter, the 126 MMRCA will be the mainstay of Indian Air Force in the coming decades.
> 
> *The winning company is also likely to receive a follow-on order of 80 odd MMRCA.*

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## WHITESMOKE

jha said:


> *Biggest defence deal proposal okayed*



Jha ji.. ab bhi F18?? hmmm???


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## jha

WHITESMOKE said:


> Jha ji.. ab bhi F18?? hmmm???



Last moment tak...These planes are very pricey..A repeat of Tanker Competition is very much possible...


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## WHITESMOKE

jha said:


> Last moment tak...These planes are very pricey..A repeat of Tanker Competition is very much possible...


F18 is nice.. par wo crucial ToT nai denge na...


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## Abingdonboy

jha said:


> Last moment tak...These planes are very pricey..A repeat of Tanker Competition is very much possible...


I don't think so, the publicity size and scale of MMRCA is on a whole different level. It was the stupid FM that caused the result of tanker (although it looks as if the A330 MRTT will win again and be delivered 3 years late for nothing!) but the MoD/IAF won't allow this, this time-all obstacles uptil now have been resolved by MoD.

Different worlds mate, no real comparison.


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## sancho

jha said:


> Last moment tak...These planes are very pricey..A repeat of Tanker Competition is very much possible...



Not possible, the tanker competition was badly made by IAF and not a very important deal from GoI point of view, since it is just a procurement to add some more aircrafts. MMRCA has a prime importance for our industry, possibly even with a strategic touch behind, which is why only those to vendors were shortlisted, that offers the most industrial advantages for India. The simple fact that the 2 most expensive fighters were shortlisted should tell you that money don't play a big role in this competition, as long as we get enough in return. If that wouldn't be the case, we would have seen other fighters beeing shortlisted as well and the forme Air Chief wouldn't have stated that not the unit cost is important, but a reasonable cost during the lifecycle. That statement alone showed that they are aiming for something expensive and not for the cheap fighters like Mig 35, or Gripen.
WRT the US fighters, the F16 never had a real chance since PAF uses it and they tried to combine it with F35 sales in the begining. The F18SH instead is not fitting to IAF requirements, since it is just a bomb truck with good electronincs, but way too less flight performance compared to the other fighters, not to mention that it is hardly a medium class fighter. But MoD/IAF made the right decision to reject both US fighters and withstand US political pressure, because we can't take these fighters with all the restrictions, performance limitations and the lack of industrial benefits, just because they are cheaper. This competition is simply not about the cheapest unit cost, but the cheapest package of capability of the fighter and industrial benefits!

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## jha




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## SpArK

jha said:


>



You voted for neither...


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## jha

SpArK said:


> You voted for neither...



Yes..there are 84 other sensible persons with me...


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## SpArK

jha said:


> Yes..there are 84 other sensible persons with me...



I am sure you have clicked it 83 times since they allow any number of clicks.


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## ramu

Rafale all the way.


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## sancho

> *MoD approves offset proposals for India's 126 MMRCA deal*
> 
> New Delhi: Indian Air Force (IAF) chief Air Chief Marshal Norman Anil Kumar Browne said that the winner of India's $10.4-billion tender for 126 combat aircraft is expected to be announced in November. India wants to close the deal before March 31, 2012.
> 
> The defence ministry on Friday approved the offset proposals for India&#8217;s biggest defence deal to buy 126 fighter planes at an estimate price of Rs 42,000 crore ($ 10.4 billion) paving the way for opening the commercial bids in ten days time.
> 
> The offset proposals from Dassault Aviation (Rafale) and the Eurofighter consortium (Typhoon) were presented before the DAC by director general acquisition Vivek Rae. Besides the Defence Minister, the two-hour meeting was attended by the three Service chiefs, the Defence Secretary, the Secretary, Defence Production, the DG (Acquisition) and concerned joint secretaries in the Ministry.
> 
> After the bids are opened, the Defence Ministry will be able to determine the lowest bidder in the deal. In the MMRCA deal, foreign vendors bagging deals will have to invest back 50 per cent of the worth of the deal in Indian defence industry. This means the winning firm has to reinvest more than Rs 21000 crore in India, either alone or in partnership with an Indian company, in military, homeland security and civil aviation.
> 
> *However it is understood that the procurement policy has a provision that allows MoD to discard L1 lowest cost bidder for 'strategic benefit' that the next highest bidder offers . The policy document is deliberately vague on what qualifies as strategic benefit, an exceptional ToT offer or partnership may be considered strategically beneficial.*
> 
> After the bids are opened to evaluate the lowest bidder, the proposal will move to the Finance Ministry for its approval and it will then go to the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) for final nod by the government.
> 
> "In the middle of November, we shall be able to announce to the whole world which plane we have selected, the L1 vendor (lowest bidder)," Browne said in his interaction with reporters after he inspected the 79th Air Force Day parade here. "The process for acquisition of the MMRCA (Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft) is in its last lap and we should be able to open the bids in 10 days' time from now," he said. He added that after opening of the commercial bids, "complex calculations" would be done in a tabular format of the entire life-cycle cost, the acquisition cost and the technology transfer. It is expected to take two or three weeks to calculate these.
> 
> The two planes had been shortlisted in April this year after eliminating other competitors -- American Boeing's F/A-18, Lockheed Martin's F-16, Russian UAC's MiG-35 and Swedish Saab's Gripen -- through a rigorous technical and weapons evaluation process that lasted for over a year.
> 
> *Together with Su-30 MKI, indigenous Light Combat Aircraft Tejas, Indo-Russian fifth generation fighter, the 126 MMRCA will be the mainstay of Indian Air Force in the coming decades. The winning company is also likely to receive a follow-on order of 80 odd MMRCA.*
> 
> Speaking on other important IAF modernisation programmes, Air Chief Marshal NAK Browne said said that the C-130J Hercules and the Airborne Early Warning and Control System (AWACS) have been inducted and operationalised in good time. The IAF has inducted five of the six C-130J ordered from the US under a $1 billion deal in 2007 and is looking to place orders for six more in the near future. It is also planning to deploy the additional six aircraft at the Charbatia air base in Orissa. The IAF has also inducted all three AWACs aircraft procured from Israel and has started using them in exercises.
> 
> He said that the planned induction of the C-17 Heavylift aircraft along with medium and heavylift choppers will increase IAF's operational flexibility. India recently signed a $4.1 billion deal with the US for procuring 10 C-17 aircraft, which will be alongside the C-130Js at the IAF base here.
> 
> On the upgrade programmes involving the fighter and transport aircraft, he said, "Upgrades of Jaguar, Mirage 2000 and MiG 29 fighter aircraft along with An-32 transport aircraft are under way and will help in enhancing their operational relevance."



MACHINIST - MoD approves offset proposals for India's 126 MMRCA deal


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## Alchemy

Can anyone please explain to me why it is called a "MMRCA 10.4 billion deal" in most media sources when then actually the bidding has not even began ???


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## Vibs

Alchemy said:


> Can anyone please explain to me why it is called a "MMRCA 10.4 billion deal" in most media sources when then actually the bidding has not even began ???



Figures from a GoI released budget information coupled with calculation of actual price of aircrafts involved in the bidding.


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## sancho



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## angeldemon_007

^^^
Cool pic


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## angeldemon_007

India to announce jet fighter within weeks - UPI.com


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## Abingdonboy

angeldemon_007 said:


> India to announce jet fighter within weeks - UPI.com



So 2013?!!! One thing I have had to learn the hard way in regards to Indian defence procurement- don't count your chickens before they hatch. Only when money is handed over and contracts are signed can we all let out a collective sigh of relief, even then the possibility of scandal and complications are not out of the question.

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## angeldemon_007

^^^
Not even then. Just look at IAF's airfield modernization program, TCS program in both cases after signing the contract the opponenet challenged the decision in court and everything was stopped until court gave the decision.


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## LiberalAtheist

i have a strange feeling that the MMRCA result has been chosen already but gov't is taking its sweet time to keep the losers hopes up


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## luckyyy

PunjabiSidhu said:


> i have a strange feeling that the MMRCA result has been chosen already but gov't is taking its sweet time to keep the losers hopes up


 
i have a feeling that govt already chose to put the deal in cold bag...


----------



## sancho

> *Euro Fighter: Darabos considering return*
> 
> Got out. If corruption can be detected, is a reversal is possible, says Minister Norbert Darabos. Lawyer warns against Kletecka unresolved legal questions.
> 
> Vienna. "Obsolete" is the business of Eurofighter, if corruption could be detected. A corresponding passage find themselves in the purchase agreement, so the return is a flyer for it is still conceivable, said Defence Minister Norbert Darabos (SPO) in the ORF "Press Hour" on Sunday. He cited the ongoing investigation against his predecessor, Herbert Scheibner. This had received after his term money from the Eurofighter fighters GmbH. For presentations in the Arab world, as Scheibner says. But the prosecutor is investigating the alleged corruption BZÖ mandatory...
> 
> ...*Austria would return simply the plane, and get back the full purchase price Eurofighter*...



Google Übersetzer


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## Roybot




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## sathya




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## StrikeForce

MMRCA Winner to be announced by November as Defence Ministry Approves MMRCA Offset Proposals
Posted on: October 10, 2011

The Indian Air Force (IAF) Chief N.A.K Browne has announced that the winner of the $ 10.4 billion tender for 126 Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) will be revealed by November this year. As for the Defence Ministry, it has approved the offset proposals for the MMRCA deal and paved the way for opening the commercial bids in ten day&#8217;s time. The Eurofighter Typhoon from EADS and Rafale from Dassault are the two contenders for MMRCA deal.

The offset proposals from Dassault Aviation (Rafale) and the Eurofighter consortium (Typhoon) have been presented before the DAC by Director General (Acquisition) Vivek Rae and the meet was attended by Defence Minister A.K. Anthony, the three Service Chiefs, the Defence Secretary and other concerned joint secretaries and defence officials. In the MMRCA deal, the lowest bidder who wins the deal will have to plough back 50 per cent of the worth of the deal in Indian defence industry. This implies that the winner of the MMRCA tender will invest over $ 5 billion as offsets into the Indian defence sector.

The two remaining MMRCA contenders are the French Rafale from Dassault Aviation and Eurofighter Typhoon from European conglomerate and their commercial bids will be opened before October end and the lowest bidder will be revealed by November. The Indian Air Chief Marshall added that after opening the bids, various calculations pertaining to the deal vis-a-vis the entire life-cycle cost, the acquisition cost and the technology transfer will be done. After the bids are opened to evaluate the lowest bidder, the proposal will move to the Finance Ministry for its approval. After the Finance Ministry, the proposal will move to the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) for final nod by the government.

Both the MMRCA contenders, the Eurofighter Typhoon and the Rafale are new state of art aircraft. While the Eurofighter has entered service with six air forces, Rafale has been in service with the French Air Force. The two planes had been shortlisted in middle of 2011 year after discarding other competitors including American Boeing's F/A-18, Lockheed Martin's F-16, Russian UAC's MiG-35 and Swedish Saab's Gripen after their trials and evaluations. 

The tender for the 126 combat planes was issued in August 2007 and the finalization of this crucial tender comes after four years. The IAF is looking at inducting these aircraft from the beginning of 2015 but that may not be a possibility. Sources added that although India urgently needs more combat planes, the new planes are not likely to arrive by 2015. The MMRCA will be the mainstay of the IAF along with the indigenous LCA Tejas, Indo-Russian Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft and Su-30 MKI in the coming decades.

Source: MMRCA Winner to be announced by November as Defence Ministry Approves MMRCA Offset Proposals - Defence Now


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## Storm Force

IM telling you all RAFAEL is destined to become the next big fighter in the indian air force

you will all see by 30 November 2011 

126 rafaels at $105 million each complete with TOT and enough weapons for 10 sorties each. 

watch this space


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## Taygibay

RAFALE please, StrikeForce.

because Rafael is an Israëli company. 

Rafale :






Rafael :






But otherwise agreed, 

Good day all, Tay.

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## SpArK

Eurofighter deliveries to the Spanish Air Force, the Typhoon nr. 300!
















Two Italian Air Force Typhoons flying over the Superga hill in Turin.

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## Taygibay

One French Rafale flying over the Libyan sands then,
somewhat more useful 

Good day all, Tay.


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## sancho

Taygibay said:


> One French Rafale flying over the Libyan sands then,
> somewhat more useful
> 
> Good day all, Tay.



Good old times when Rafale didn't needed to strike Libya, but was even close to be procured by them. Times can change fast isn't?


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## Black Widow

I hope EFT bring down the price to make competition more interesting ..


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## Taygibay

Agreed sancho but it was never clear that Dassault favored that sale.
The government yes but considering the semi-derelict state of the
Libyan Air Force, aaaaaaaand, the new govt may get those at last. 
But a good question might be whether they are really needed there 

As for answering Black Widow, if lower price is computed with offsets,
then EF may already be the cheaper deal but since it was revealed that
the L1 offer could be neglected for strategic purposes ...............
we can just wait for the decision, still, 

Good day all' Tay.


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## westtowel

I always thought EF is a better aircraft,but only rafales are deployed widely in Libya.


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## Taygibay

^^^^^^^^^
 Take heart westtowel!

Even though a Rafale proponent myself, I can assure you
that the Typhoon is a very good fighter in its own right.
AND, it is present over Libya!

What favors the Rafale in that campaign is of time's nature.
The EF is in service with countries that are still using the
trusted high-low mix in their fighter fleets.
As such, development/integration of its capacities is a quite
complicated affair.
The UK seems to have the clearer timeschedule for it which
comes from their expectation to rely on a duo EF/F-35 soon.
But at the same time, the RAF uses it as an interceptor first
as the good ol' Tornados ( Gr 4 mostly ) can do bomb duties.
In varying degrees the same can be said of the other EF nations.

Let's remember that air dominance was central to the concept
and project that became the Typhoon whereas the Raffy was
intended as an omnirole machine from the start.
In this light, it is but normal that it reaches AtoG FOC first, see!

The EF is supposed to be *as* _multirole as it is designed to be_ only
by 2015-18 as things stand and then mostly for Great Britain.
Now, right now, the Rafale is mature if not finished developing
in all capacities which is only normal.

Good day all, Tay.


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## sancho

Black Widow said:


> I hope EFT bring down the price to make competition more interesting ..



I don't think the price is the real issue, IAF/MoD already had decided to go for the costliest 2 in the competition, but the point is what we get in return for the money. The EF consortium, which included big companies like EADS and BAE will most likely offer offsets to Indian industry than the Rafale Internation consortium might can. The same was reported from the Swiss competition and the recent reports about reducing the work in the UK, but offering to transfer these parts of the production to India could be hints on what they offer as well. It's simple outsourcing to reduce the production cost of the EF on the one side, but also a part of the share we get as a partner of the EF, so indeed an interesting point for Indian industry.
However, we are not at the begining of the EF production anymore, the 300th fighter was delivered now and we would be a part of the production line only beyond 2015 and since the initial partners will not order more EFs, our industry will mainly produce parts only for IAF and if new export customers decides to order EFs. That is basically the same that we might have on offer from the French as well, even if (it's at least not known yet) we have no simila offer to be a partner of the Rafale.
From the Brazilian competition it is known that if they select Rafale, the wings for all Rafales (Brazilian, French and other export versions) would be produced in Brazil. From the Swiss competition it is known that they also gets part of the production and also that their industry might be part of further developments for the Rafale, so we can expect similar offers to be made in the MMRCA and for Indian industry.
All this will be part of the cost-benefit analysis, with EF "possibly" as the more costly fighter for IAF/MoD, but also more industrial advantage on the other side and the improvement of the Indian industry has a very high importance in MMRCA as we all know (imo the sole reason why the MRCA was skipped and we went to MMRCA, by risking further shrinking of the squad numbers). That's why I keep saying, even if the Rafale is the clearly better and more suiting fighter from IAF/INs point of view, it might be not for MoD and the industry, that's why the EF has still all chances to win this competition and if the costs might be higher.


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## Yeti

EADS will benefit even if Eurofighter does not get picked, they are setting up a (R&D) centre in Bangalore.


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## sancho

Taygibay said:


> Agreed sancho but it was never clear that Dassault favored that sale.
> The government yes but considering the semi-derelict state of the
> Libyan Air Force, aaaaaaaand, the new govt may get those at last.
> *But a good question might be whether they are really needed there*



Exactly, which might be a reason why France/Dassault might offer UAEs Mirage 2000-9s instead, which still needs an export customer before the UAE will by Rafales right? Libya might get Rafales as a long term prospect and since they owe France a lot and might get be influenced by the UAE too, the chances for such a deal are not that low. Even the Qatari Mirage 2000-5s could end up in Libya, since they want to sell them and buy new fighters instead as well, but they have an international competition, not a single vendor deal like it is the case in the UAE. 


@ westtowel

As Taygibay mentioned, the EF isn't a bad fighter, it has even the same potential to be a good multi role fighter in future, especially the EF 2020 version that is on offer for us, Japan or Turkey. The problem is, that it was designed less balanced like the Rafale, since the partners developed it as an air superiority fighter during the cold war times and with the aim of countering Russian Flankers. The multi role capabilities was planned to be added as secondary capabilities during the time, but with huge cost increaseings of the EF project, the economy/financial crisis and the fact that half of the partners also planned with the F35 in their fleet, they simply don't want to pay too much for the EF and it's upgrade anymore. The EF consortium is able to and even developed similar techs like the French does for Rafale too, but no partner is ready to pay for the final development and integration into the EF and that's why they need India so badly. Not as a partner in the R&D anymore (since the only R&D part that is left is the Sea Typhoon), but as a partner to fund further developments and get the fighter to it's real potential and give them (UK/ITA) the chance to divert funds and concentration to the F35 instead.

France on the other side is fully commited to the Rafale and is constantly upgrading the Rafale. That's why the fighter, which was developed with true multi role capabilities in mind from the start, is also on a totally different upgrade level today. Selecting Rafale means, getting a fighter that is fully capable from the minute IAF inducts the fighter (possibly from 2013 onwards), only a few further funding of upgrades and developments needed, because France already cleared this long ago, while a fully capable EF at a comparable level to Rafale F3+ might be available only around 2018. That's why France was able to use the Rafale in Libya in all roles that the RAF did with Tornado *and* the EF + several naval roles as well!


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## Taygibay

@ Sancho ^^^^^^^^^

Entirely agreed with your sale/re-sale analysis.
Those UAE M2Kdashnine are swing roles ACs 

Without a market they are a thorn in the UAE deal.
With the possibility of going to Libya, they form an
advantage as they would allow the country's Airmen
to get back on track towards a possible Raffy buy.
And yes, were they to become available, the 2000-5
from Qatar would be sufficient too for Libya now.
I'm supposing the new govt/ex-rebels not to need to
bomb their citizens anytime soon ( or to rely on the
remaining SU-22, Galebs and Mi-24 helos if so, sigh ).


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## raavan

rafale will win. France will help us with nuclear power and engine as well.


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## luckyyy

raavan said:


> rafale will win. France will help us with nuclear power and engine as well.


 
keep dreaming , they not even ready for LCH engine..


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## Taygibay

> keep dreaming , they not even ready for LCH engine..



I suppose that you are referring to the Indian industry, Luckyyy?
Your post was not clear on that 

Because if you meant that France is not ready to produce or sell or export
helicopter turbines, you should not be posting in military forums at all 

If the former interpretation is what you meant,
it is up to India to become more serious and
stringent on manufacturing processes and materials.
But it can be learned and done.

Good day all, Tay.


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## sancho

Taygibay said:


> I suppose that you are referring to the Indian industry, Luckyyy?
> Your post was not clear on that
> 
> Because if you meant that France is not ready to produce or sell or export
> helicopter turbines, you should not be posting in military forums at all



I guess he is talking about the issue that Snecma asked for too much money to redesign the Shakti engine (which is currently used by Dhruv and LCH prototypes), to be used in HALs new LUH, that is under development. That's indeed a downer, because that will have an influence in the decision to buy Eurocopters Fennec too, but has nothing to do with the Kaveri engine at all, because Snecma/France is proposing that co-development since years and the only reason that we didn't fixed it yet was the dream of getting Kaveri engine ready alone.
Actually, the fact that besides the Russians, France is the only country that reportedly has offered an engine co-development so far, is one of the reasons why I highly prefer deeper ties with the French industry. It might be expensive, but there is no western alternative to them, when our aim is to get as much ToT as possible, or co-develop indigenous arms & techs. Kaveri engine is one example, the Maitri SAM co-development is another, both are mainly Indian developments with French industry getting involved with their techs, know how and experience. In contrast to that, Brahmos, MRTA, FGFA, or even Barak SAM are Russian/Israeli developments, where we joint and has some parts in it, but that exactly shows that we have other and imo better solutions than going for fully indigenous developments, which are more difficult (as we learned the hard way with the engine and radar developments of LCA that failed) and takes way more time - co-developments, based on Indian requirements!
The most successful "Indian" development is still the Dhruv, which was developed for India and according to Indian requirements, but with German and French development partners!!! We should have followed that way instead with LCA too and would now be at a way different stage and that's why I hope that besides the selection of Dassaults Rafale, there could be some co-development deal with France/Dassault on the AURA UCAV as well.
Co-developments are the way forward for India, because we have the access to Russian, Israeli and several European partners, that are ready to share their techs, a crucial advantage over any of our opponents!

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## nomi007

mmrca will set future partners of India
if selects France than EU will be angry if select ef-2000 than France will be angry


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## jha

nomi007 said:


> mmrca will set future partners of India
> if selects France than EU will be angry if select ef-2000 than France will be angry



Unlike Pakistan, We dont need to play Zero Sum game...


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## SpArK

nomi007 said:


> mmrca will set future partners of India
> if selects France than EU will be angry if select ef-2000 than France will be angry



oh okayyy.. 

France is not in EU now..

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## satishkumarcsc

nomi007 said:


> mmrca will set future partners of India
> if selects France than EU will be angry if select ef-2000 than France will be angry



Whatever aircraft is chosen MBDA is going to supply weapons for it.


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## Black Widow

nomi007 said:


> mmrca will set future partners of India
> if selects France than EU will be angry if select ef-2000 than France will be angry





Eureka!!!! You found something. We didn't buy MiG35, Russia is angry on us. So does America as we didnot select from F16 and 18... Are you out of mind???? No one take it so hard... Its all about Business, there is no place of emotion in it...

Its not your fault, you brother are emotional, thats why you show emotion while replying to thread...

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## Vibs

nomi007 said:


> mmrca will set future partners of India
> if selects France than EU will be angry if select ef-2000 than France will be angry



Unlikely. Aircrafts are not the only defence items India is buying. There is a whole gamut of areas where they can come in. There is hype behind this deal because of the sheer numbers involved.


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## SpArK

*Tough bargaining ahead for India&#8217;s MMRCA winner*






​
Sat, Oct 22, 2011 15:35 CET


The two finalists in India&#8217;s Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) aircraft deal, Eurofighter and Dassault, *will have to be prepared for tough bargaining at the price negotiation stage as a rise in the value of the Euro Vs the Indian currency has pushed up the Rupee value of their bid by an estimated 15% in the last one year.*

Following the acceptance of the offsets proposals of the two bidders a fortnight ago, *the only remaining formality is the opening of the envelopes containing the commercial bids and announcing the lowest bidder which will walk away with the estimated $1.2 billion prize.*

*The lowest bidder will then be called for further talks called price negotiations to be held by the price negotiations committee.*

*It is at this stage that the final price will be decided and tough bargaining will ensue. India has in the past let go of defence contracts as talks have broken down at the final price negotiation stage with the winning bidder. Cases to point are Airbus Industrie and Eurocopter both of which had to back off after being selected as winners, as the Indian Finance Ministry found their final price too expensive.*

* &#8220;Even after the final winner is announced, it is still touch and go&#8221;*, said an industry source to Defenseworld.net. *&#8220;There is no finality that the lowest bidder will get the deal if India&#8217;s Finance Ministry which holds the purse strings objects to any part of the financial commitment. The Euro value rise will be an important element to discuss as a 15%-18% rise in the last 18 months means that order price has increased by over a billion Euros&#8221;.*

It may be recalled that in mid-2009, the MMRCA bidders have had to submit fresh bids as the two year validity of their commercial bids had expired then and a couple of the bidders had told defenseworld.net then &#8220; the purpose of submitting fresh commercial bids is to take into account price escalation&#8221; adding that *&#8220;the best value at current prices has been offered to India&#8221;, which means that a price rise has been effected in the new bids.*


Tough bargaining ahead for India&#8217;s MMRCA winner : Defense news

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## the rafter

> *France in final talks on UAE Rafale sale*
> 
> France is in late-stage talks to sell Dassault Aviation-built Rafale fighter jets to the United Arab Emirates, Defence Minister Gerard Longuet said on LCI television on Monday. &#8221;We are in final discussions,&#8221; Longuet said.Asked how likely it was the deal would be completed, he said: &#8220;It&#8217;s extremely probable.&#8221;
> 
> French President Nicolas Sarkozy has handed the reins to sealing the deal with the UAE to his foreign minister, Alain Juppe, in the hope of concluding a deal by the end of the year.
> 
> The UAE has been in talks with Dassault since 2008 over *the purchase of 60 Rafale jets, estimated at $10 billion*, to replace the fleet of Mirage 2000s they bought in 1983.
> 
> The French company has still not found a foreign buyer for the multi-role Rafale, billed as one of the most effective but also one of the most expensive fighter jets in the world.
> 
> &#8220;It&#8217;s a big deal for a country when it equips its air force for 40 years, so the buyer has conditions and the industrial firm is defending its interests. That&#8217;s obvious.&#8221; Longuet said.
> 
> The aircraft-maker had come close to securing a multi-billion-dollar Rafale deal with Brazil, but the Brazilian government has delayed its decision until 2012.
> http://idrw.org/?p=4703



If UAE is paying 10 billion for 60 Rafale jets, then how much will it cost India to get 126 or even 200? Definitely more than $10 billion


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## Gandhi G in da house

the rafter said:


> If UAE is paying 10 billion for 60 Rafale jets, then how much will it cost India to get 126 or even 200? Definitely more than $10 billion



I don't know what the GoI has in mind . The EF typhoon is even more expensive


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## sancho

the rafter said:


> If UAE is paying 10 billion for 60 Rafale jets, then how much will it cost India to get 126 or even 200? Definitely more than $10 billion



Don't forget that this ammount includes not only low numbers of fighters (which makes the unit cost higher), but that they also will be completelly produced in France and that it most likely includes fundings for some of the changes the UAE wanted. So you can't really translate this figure to the MMRCA, but even I wouldn't be surprised if the final deal will be costlier, but as long as the outcome for Indian forces and Indian industry is worth it, I don't have a problem with that.


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## Trucker

sancho said:


> Don't forget that this ammount includes not only low numbers of fighters (which makes the unit cost higher), but that they also will be completelly produced in France and that it most likely includes fundings for some of the changes the UAE wanted. So you can't really translate this figure to the MMRCA, but even I wouldn't be surprised if the final deal will be costlier, but as long as the outcome for Indian forces and Indian industry is worth it, I don't have a problem with that.



weapons included in 10 billion dollar bill??if this goes,atleast indian mmrca will be above 17 billion including more 63 extra without weapons.i think govt has offset upto 14-15 billion dollar total.so there are chances of cancelling and chance of hornets but again tot will be an issue with hornets.


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## Taygibay

Sancho is right, Trucker.

The UAE are a very demanding customer.
Both their present fleet of F-18 and M2000
have been tailored to suit them.
They have made requirements for specific equipments,
ranging from new weapons to new engines.
So that they include in their contract the development
of some of these additional capacities. *
(They also ask for the M2000-9 to be "bought" back from
them and the resale value may be not included there so that
you should then substract the price of these 60 odd fighter
from the 10 billion general deal enveloppe.)


Were you to go to your local Jeep dealership and get the new
one in basic package while your cousin goes too and requires
a big wheel pack with new suspension and transmission plus
extra lights, winch, air conditioning, stereo wundersystem and
customized paint job, the pricing would differ wildly for you & him.

Also consider that there was no contest à la MMRCA.
All 3 purchases I mentioned were done by the UAE selecting their
AC of choice and furnishing a list of additional demands.


For instance, Sancho mentioned the Kaveri and Shakti in clearing
another post for me earlier.
Some re-designs and adaptation can in some cases cost as much
as a new development.
Still in the car comparison, think of asking Ferrari to install a truck
HEMI in their latest model for you or their own nice V-12 in a Ford
Focus or Tata Nano and think how much they'd charge ..........

So if one was to compare, starting from the Brazilian FX-2 deal values
would be more realistic, with the cost going down in India's case on
account of a higher number of planes in the buy.
{ Fx-2 = about 2.2 billions $ for 36 planes with hefty ToT. }

Good day all, Tay.


*
During the years those talks endured, the Market for currencies
also meant variations up to 45 % of the costs.

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## WHITESMOKE

NEW DELHI: The Defence Ministry has invited Eurofighter and Dassault Rafale - the two shortlisted vendors in the multi-billion dollar combat aircraft deal - on November 4 to open their commercial bids after which a final decision on giving the contract will be taken.

The two shortlisted vendors have received a letter from the Ministry and have been informed that commercial bids for procuring 126 Multi-role Combat Aircraft (M-MRCA) *tender will be opened on November 4,* industry sources told PTI here.

After the bids are opened, the Defence Ministry will be able to determine the lowest bidder in the deal and decide who will ultimately get the contract, described as the "mother of all deals", they said.

As per Indian rules, the lowest bidder in a deal meeting all the specified requirements is considered to be the winner. 

The Defence Ministry had earlier this month cleared the way for opening commercial bids of Rafale and Eurofighter Typhoon by approving their offset proposals.

Defence Ministry officials said all the spade work for the opening of bids was over and the bids will be opened in the presence of the two vendors.

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## Trucker

4th november..
let me check horoscope


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## WHITESMOKE

Trucker said:


> 4th november..
> let me check horoscope



And horoscope of whose?


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## Perceptron

*India to Announce MMRCA Winner Next Month*
By VIVEK RAGHUVANSHI 
Published: 24 Oct 2011 13:33NEW DELHI - India's $10 billion Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) contest has entered its last stage, with the Indian Defence Ministry alerting the two competitors that the commercial bids will be opened Nov. 4.

Letters were sent Oct. 24 to France's Dassault Aviation and European company EADS, a ministry source here said. After the commercial bids are opened, the lowest bidder will be decided and price negotiations with the winner will begin.

The MMRCA program has picked up momentum in the Defence Ministry, and a contract is likely to be sealed by March 2012.

Based on flight trials of all the MMRCA competitors, the aircraft proposed by U.S. companies Lockheed Martin and Boeing, Sweden's Saab and Russia's MiG Aircraft were ejected from the race, leaving the Dassault Rafale, the Eurofighter Typhoon in the fray.

The Indian Defence Ministry floated its biggest global tender, worth $10 billion, for the acquisition of 126 MMRCAs in August 2007.

The Indian Air Force intends to replace its aging Russian-built MiG-21 fighter aircraft with the MMRCA because the Indian-designed and -built Light Combat Aircraft has been delayed by more than a decade.

Under the MMRCA proposal, India would buy 18 ready-to-fly fighters off the shelf and the remaining 108 would be built in India under technology transfer from the contract winner.


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## Archie

Well let me make another Prediction

Due to 2 yrs Delay in mmrca and selection of Rafale and EF , the deal will cost us atleast 14 Billion USD for just the 126 fighters , WHILE Weapons Package for these jets is expected to cost ATLEAST 3 Billion USD 

Rafale will be announced as the lowest bidder , becoz it is cheaper by atleast 20 Million USD per aircraft

India will order the following weapons Package

800 Meteor BVRAAM
450 MICA 
120 Scalp/Taurus Air launched Cruise Missiles
72 Exocet Anti Ship Missiles
1000 Brimstone Anti Armour Missiles
1600 AASM LGB KITS


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## Raje amar

Trucker said:


> weapons included in 10 billion dollar bill??if this goes,atleast indian mmrca will be above 17 billion including more 63 extra without weapons.i think govt has offset upto 14-15 billion dollar total.so there are chances of cancelling and chance of hornets but again tot will be an issue with hornets.



$12bil is the price 6 years back. considering inflation it will now touch to somewhere around $15bil. & even the wepons is not included in this. so a total package of the 126 will touch to around $18 - 20 bil. 
if outed for additional 60 jets the package will be $ 25bil plus.
but they will not declare all that so you never know.


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## angeldemon_007

*Rafale with Su30 mki*

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## sancho

angeldemon_007 said:


> *Rafale with Su30 mki*



Don't like the Rafale paint job, but DA...what a combo ! ! !


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## sancho

Trucker said:


> weapons included in 10 billion dollar bill??if this goes,atleast indian mmrca will be above 17 billion including more 63 extra without weapons.i think govt has offset upto 14-15 billion dollar total.so there are chances of cancelling and chance of hornets but again tot will be an issue with hornets.



No, weapon deals are always extra deals. The System costs migh have "some" weapons included, but not for the full life cycle. No, they won't cancell it, because it's too obvious that they are ready to pay high prizes not for the fighter alone, but for the package that comes with it and IAF opposes the US fighters anyway, because of the high restrictions and lack of capabilities, so they are out of question.

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## SpArK

angeldemon_007 said:


> *Rafale with Su30 mki*



Come November 4... this becomes a reality.

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## Trucker

i will support eft but their production lines will be stopped after few years


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## CallsignAlzaeem

I have seen Rafale performing,Dont know what to say but at some maneuvers it certainly out did any other jet present at the air show,Impressive indeed,Aggressive bird,would definitely give headache to its rivals.


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## sudhir007



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## sancho

Btw, there are reports that the EF was rejected from the competition in Japan, but it's not confirmed so far. If that's the case, the EF countries and consortium will be even more desperate to get the deal in India, because there is no other potential partner in sight.

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## Trucker

sancho said:


> Btw, there are reports that the EF was rejected from the competition in Japan, but it's not confirmed so far. If that's the case, the EF countries and consortium will be even more desperate to get the deal in India, because there is no other potential partner in sight.



dont you think if eft gets selected then first squad will come after 2016 and in case of rafale it will be after 2014


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## Jon Snow

Trucker said:


> dont you think if eft gets selected then first squad will come after 2016 and in case of rafale it will be after 2014


why is that??


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## sancho

Trucker said:


> dont you think if eft gets selected then first squad will come after 2016 and in case of rafale it will be after 2014



Not necessarily, there were reports that the EF consortium offered EF T2s by 2014, the same that the EF partners had ordered and they are completelly wired and ready for later upgrades like AESA radar..., so even if the AESA radar will be developed only by 2015 or later, the first squadron of EFs is likely to be delivered in 2014, just not as capable as IAF actually required. On the other hand, it will take even more time to make the EF fully A2G capable as IAF might want it to be (around 2018 only) and we also know that the AESA radar that might be available in 2015, will most likely have only A2A modes, so all in all, we might have EFs in the force, but only with limited capabilities.

Gtg guys, cya!

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## SpArK

*6 Squadron Typhoons Shadow Russian Bears
*

On 11 October Typhoon aircraft of Number 6 Squadron maintaining the Quick Reaction Alert (QRA) mission at RAF Leuchars were launched to intercept two aircraft in the NATO Air Policing Area that could not be identified by any other means i.e. the aircraft is not talking to civilian or military Air Traffic Control, has not filed a flight plan and is not transmitting a recognisable secondary surveillance radar code. The aircraft were identified as Russian Long Range Aviation (LRA) assets 'Bears' and the 6 Squadron Typhoons maintained contact until the Russian aircraft cleared the UK&#8217;s Flight Information Region.


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## tvsram1992

Jon Snow said:


> why is that??


currently F22 and EFT are a2a fighters and they lack ground attack capabilities.
Rafale has good strike capabilities and France assured the fast delivery for first two squadrons of aircrafts .


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## rissriva

CallsignAlzaeem said:


> I have seen Rafale performing,Dont know what to say but at some maneuvers it certainly out did any other jet present at the air show,Impressive indeed,Aggressive bird,would definitely give headache to its rivals.



I have my self seen Rafael, Eurofighter and Gripen performing. While the first 2 are twin engined and show impressive maneuver, Gripen also showed much mettle despite being a single engine aircraft. I just wish the tender be deivided in two parts: 60% to the twin engined aircraft and rest to Gripen. Or 65-35 will be more cost effective.


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## Taygibay

Sorry to be so insistant, rissriva but RAFALE


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## desimorty

> I have my self seen Rafael, Eurofighter and Gripen performing. While the first 2 are twin engined and show impressive maneuver, Gripen also showed much mettle despite being a single engine aircraft. I just wish the tender be deivided in two parts: 60% to the twin engined aircraft and rest to Gripen. Or 65-35 will be more cost effective.


There is not point in Gripen NG.
By the time Gripen would be inducted if they get selected the Tejas MK2 would already be in production. AESA, supercruise etc... I'd rather have the Tejas MK2 since alteast it has an Indian mission computer that allows the IAF to use Russian and Western weapons systems.

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## sancho

rissriva said:


> I just wish the tender be deivided in two parts: 60% to the twin engined aircraft and rest to Gripen. Or 65-35 will be more cost effective.



No it would be more costly! Lower numbers of different fighters increases the unit costs, the maintenance cost, the logistical costs, if there is no weapon comonality, you need different types of weapons, different training...
Moreover, IAF tries to reduce the types of fighters to reduce the operational costs, that's why splitting MMRCA was never an option for IAF, or MoD.


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## rockstarIN

Just wait for Nov.4 to know the winner, I think they will declare on the same day who is the lowest bidder is.

Any idea how much time will MoD take to negotiate and finalise with the lowest bidder?


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## sathya

winner will be known feb/march next year


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## sancho

rockstar said:


> Just wait for Nov.4 to know the winner, I think they will declare on the same day who is the lowest bidder is.
> 
> Any idea how much time will MoD take to negotiate and finalise with the lowest bidder?



They will open the bids on 4th nov, but won't decide the winner then. IAF hopes for a final decision by dec, media by early next year. We have no choice than wait and see.


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## rockstarIN

sancho said:


> They will open the bids on 4th nov, but won't decide the winner then. IAF hopes for a final decision by dec, media by early next year. We have no choice than wait and see.



Wont we come to know that who is the lowest bidder and with whom are we negotiating for price?


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## sancho

rockstar said:


> Wont we come to know that who is the lowest bidder and with whom are we negotiating for price?


Depends on MoD and the way they want to do it, but since they were very professional during this competition and didn't gave out much infos (which is the reason why there was so many media speculation), I think they will keep quiet until the final decision is done. It would be even logical incase you want to ask the vendors for changes/modifications of their bids, because when you already openly declare that one of them is L1 and is likely to be the winner, why should that vendor renegotiate?


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## Nirvana

*So Much Buttering from Gripen*


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## Vimana

RAF Typhoon leads the race to secure £7 billion arms deal - Telegraph


Dear members it looks like EF is in the lead 



*The Typhoon was already leading the pack after the jet scored highest in a technical assessment by Indian pilots who flew the aircraft in a series of exercises in 2010.


But it is believed that it will be the Typhoon's performance in the Libyan conflict, where it completed more than 600 combat missions, that will help to clinch the deal, the result of which will be made public before Christmas.*



Is this more PR from the Brits?


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## jha

Vimana said:


> RAF Typhoon leads the race to secure £7 billion arms deal - Telegraph



Yes..So was EJ-2000 ...All comes down to price tag....And both the jets are quite pricey...
However if certain sources are to be believed then France is offering a lot under the table ( not for just AF but also for Navy ) which is very irresistible. And the decision to go for the Mirage Upgrade deal was first step in an obvious direction.

But all these could be rumors ...


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## Vimana

jha said:


> Yes..So was EJ-2000 ...All comes down to price tag....And both the jets are quite pricey...
> However if certain sources are to be believed then France is offering a lot under the table ( not for just AF but also for Navy ) which is very irresistible. And the decision to go for the Mirage Upgrade deal was first step in an obvious direction.
> 
> But all these could be rumors ...





The Eurofighter is more expensive but if it offers a better technology transfer I could see it beating the Rafale as the IAF were really impressed with the bird during the flight trials.


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## sancho

Vimana said:


> RAF Typhoon leads the race to secure £7 billion arms deal - Telegraph
> 
> 
> Dear members it looks like EF is in the lead
> 
> 
> 
> *The Typhoon was already leading the pack after the jet scored highest in a technical assessment by Indian pilots who flew the aircraft in a series of exercises in 2010.
> 
> 
> But it is believed that it will be the Typhoon's performance in the Libyan conflict, where it completed more than 600 combat missions, that will help to clinch the deal, the result of which will be made public before Christmas.*
> 
> 
> 
> Is this more PR from the Brits?


 
Yes its's part of their PR which is obvious when you look at the reasons that were stated in the article. 

- EF was leading the competition
- IAF was impressed by EF during excersises
- EF's performance in Libya

The first 2 were rumors that came up only in British news reports, without any official confirmation from the Indian side, so it's just a summery of older PR + the addition of the Libyan performance, which is rather funny, since even pro EF media were more impressed by the true multi role performance of the Rafale, than of the EF, which only assisted the Tornado. Keep in mind that the EF consortium put the "combat proven" lable on the EF, as soon as it was fielded in Libya, which shows that they use any chance to make the EF look better than it is today. The real advantages of the EF are ToT, industrial and political advantages and not the performance or capabilities of the fighter itself.


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## Lankan Ranger

*Both EF Typhoon & Dassault Rafale are good jets: Indian Air force 
*

*The bid to select the Multi Medium Range Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) for the country would be opened in Delhi on November 4, Air Marshal Diraj Kukreja said today. 

"The bid has now come down to two firms EF Typhoon & Dassault Rafale. Negotiations with the firms will start after opening the bid on November 4 when it will be known who will get the contract," he told reporters after participating in a function here. 
*
*Kukreja said both aircraft's, which have already been evaluated for their capabilities, are good. "Whatever is beneficial to the country, we will choose," he said. 
*
*The preparations for the 2013 Bangalore Aero Show would begin from next year, he said.*

MMRCA bid to be opened on Nov 4: Air Marshal Kukreja, IBN Live News

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## Lankan Ranger

*Who will win? *


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## Lankan Ranger

*PR Article&#8230;&#8230;
*
http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-...on-leads-race-secure-7-billion-arms-deal.html


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## kaykay

typhoon rafale


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## tvsram1992

kaykay said:


> typhoon rafale


typhoons bullet failed to hit rafale


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## Lankan Ranger

*Whatever is beneficial to the country, we will choose: IAF

If Indian Air force selects Dassault Rafale it will benefit Indian Navy 
*


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## Nirvana

Rafale has Already won MMRCA , The bidding Process is Just formality


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## rockstarIN

Nirvana said:


> Rafale has Already won MMRCA , The bidding Process is Just formality



Really Mr. Antony?

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## Nirvana

rockstar said:


> Really Mr. Antony?



Ohh Shitt !! u Caught me 

Guys I am Mr. AK Antony Honourable Def Minister of India , been here for quite some time and I do take views of you people Seriously

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## Archie

Nirvana said:


> Ohh Shitt !! u Caught me
> 
> Guys I am Mr. AK Antony Honourable Def Minister of India , been here for quite some time and I do take views of you people Seriously



Yeah 
And I am Pranab Mukherji

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## karan.1970

Archie said:


> Yeah
> And I am Pranab Mukherji



Now I know why the hell you guys were missing from *my* cabinet meeting y'day... Slackers trolling on the internet forums

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## SpArK

karan.1970 said:


> Now I know why the hell you guys were missing from *my* cabinet meeting y'day... Slackers trolling on the internet forums


 

Mister.. Madam ji bula rahe hai.. koi kitchen ka kaam hai.. jaldi.. go now....

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## Archie

Lankan Ranger said:


> *Whatever is beneficial to the country, we will choose: IAF
> 
> If Indian Air force selects Dassault Rafale it will benefit Indian Navy
> *



Yup Rafale should win and win big
I expect IAF to order 126+64 Rafale coz our Russian Brotheren will screw up the Delivery of PAKFA


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## WHITESMOKE

And who is Madam?


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## Archie

WHITESMOKE said:


> And who is Madam?



Sonia ji of course
u were not expecting Mayawati were you , becoz people can get confused with the word Madam

Pranab Mukherji out


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## tvsram1992

Archie said:


> Yeah
> And I am Pranab Mukherji


 Iam N Modi


----------



## illuminatidinesh

I guess its time all the babus go to where they belong and atleast let this forum alone..... I thought its about rafale and eurofighter.
Its all the way Rafale....


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## Abingdonboy

God, I'm a SO ready for this project to be over!! We seem to be being fed so many arbitrary deadlines that don't really put us any closer to an end result. Lets be honest whichever one IAF gets will be awesome and certainly better than what they are replacing and surely give India's neighbours a warm feeling in their collective pants (not that the sight of MKI doesn't already have that effect on them).

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## nomi007

now a day i m playing hawx1 in which i m flying both jets
i feel both have same capabilities but Rafael shape is better than ef-2000


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## Abingdonboy

nomi007 said:


> now a day i m playing hawx1 in which i m flying both jets
> i feel both have same capabilities but Rafael shape is better than ef-2000


God!! If only you had told this to IAF, they could have gone out and bought a £30 game instead of wasting millions of USD of taxpayers money on expensive and complicated trails and analysis. 





Lol mate, no offence meant.

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## rockstarIN

sancho said:


> Yes its's part of their PR which is obvious when you look at the reasons that were stated in the article.
> 
> - EF was leading the competition
> - IAF was impressed by EF during excersises
> - EF's performance in Libya
> 
> The first 2 were rumors that came up only in British news reports, without any official confirmation from the Indian side, so it's just a summery of older PR + the addition of the Libyan performance, which is rather funny, since even pro EF media were more impressed by the true multi role performance of the Rafale, than of the EF, which only assisted the Tornado. Keep in mind that the EF consortium put the "combat proven" lable on the EF, as soon as it was fielded in Libya, which shows that they use any chance to make the EF look better than it is today. The real advantages of the EF are ToT, industrial and political advantages and not the performance or capabilities of the fighter itself.



Once Indian respresentive at Italy stated that EF is leading in technical parameters.

It might be true that EF is good in technical specifications than Rafale during the trails.


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## INDIAN SOLDIER

JishanKKK said:


> miss mayawati is preety interesting in mmrca,,,,,,,,she wants rafale



Nopes,,,, she would have gone for MIG-21 at cost of EF


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## illusion8

i think they should toss a coin and make the call


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## Abingdonboy

illusion8 said:


> i think they should toss a coin and make the call


Too bad IAF are a professional force who have gone to all the effort of submitting their proposal based on 10,000s of man hours of analysis of over 6,000,000 different technical critera and 100,000 pages technical specification. 

Otherwise this would have been a great idea!!!


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## Emmie

My rough hunch - Rafale will be the one.

BTW which one of these two has maximum chances?


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## Abingdonboy

Emmie said:


> My rough hunch - Rafale will be the one.
> 
> BTW *which one of these two has maximum chances?*



Hahahaha!!! That's the $12 BILLION Dollar question!!

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## Emmie

Abingdonboy said:


> Hahahaha!!! That's the $12 BILLION Dollar question!!



I mean what is the intend among common Indians..


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## Abingdonboy

Emmie said:


> I mean what is the intend among common Indians..


Tbh mate it seems going by polls on certain forums and viewing comments to be around 50:50. Just look back through this thread, you will see a pretty even split between EFT and Rafele- and even a few who still hold out for late revival of fallen 4!!

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## illusion8

Abingdonboy said:


> Tbh mate it seems going by polls on certain forums and viewing comments to be around 50:50. Just look back through this thread, you will see a pretty even split between EFT and Rafele- and even a few who still hold out for late revival of fallen 4!!



so a coin toss will be a good idea


----------



## Vimana

This same story was run by the Telegraph back in 2010 and all they did was repost it!


----------



## Bl[i]tZ

NEW DELHI &#8212; India's Defence Ministry has invited the two rivals for a $12 billion jet fighter contract -- France's Dassault and the European Eurofighter consortium -- to unveil their bids next week.

The Dassault group is hoping to secure the contract for 126 jets, one of the largest military contracts of recent years, with its Rafale fighter which has yet to find any foreign buyers.

A source for the French firm, who declined to be identified, said it was unclear how quickly the winning bid to supply the 126 jet fighters would be announced. 

The source said it would reveal its bid on November 4.

*"It could be settled in one day or it could take months if the (price) gap is narrow," the source said.* 

The Rafale and the Eurofighter Typhoon were shortlisted for the contract in April, beating fierce competition from US giants Boeing and Lockheed Martin.

Other bidders included Sweden's Saab AB and the Russian makers of the MiG 35.

The Eurofighter is made by the four-nation European Aeronautic Defence & Space consortium, representing Germany and Spain, Britain's BAE Systems and Italy's Finmeccanica.

The contract includes the outright purchase of 18 combat aircraft by 2012 with another 108 to be built in India.


India, the biggest importer of military hardware among emerging nations, issued the initial tender in 2007 and trials of the aircraft competing for the deal began a year later.

The procurement of the fighter jets is a key part of New Delhi's military modernisation programme, aimed at securing its borders against its traditional and emerging rivals Pakistan and  China.

International consultancy firm KPMG estimates New Delhi will hand out military contracts worth $112 billion by 2016.

AFP: India to open rival bids for $12 bn fighter deal

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## nomi007

nomi007 said:


> now a day i m playing hawx1 in which i m flying both jets
> i feel both have same capabilities but Rafael shape is better than ef-2000


sir before flying a jets pilots are trained on simulators of jets
like hawx and ace combat
and the jets are in these games are close to reality


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## SpArK

*4 days to go*


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## drunken-monke

Well its unlikely to have a very narrow gap between the prices of both fighter jets. Hence we can expect the fast track deal (if possible). But the question still remains unclear that, what would be gap between price tag of both fighter, and what would be the range of gap for taking the fast decision.


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## Zarvan

Sir when on earth you will finally order these 126 planes ?


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## kaykay

Zarvan said:


> Sir when on earth you will finally order these 126 planes ?


very soon ji......itna intazaar kar liya thoda aur kar lo


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## Mirza Jatt

if you give up the hope now..then it will be prove the saying...

"hathi nikal gaya...poonch reh gayi"


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## rockstarIN

SpArK said:


> *4 days to go*



Will they release the lowest bidder details to public on 4th?


----------



## Jerico

Count down begins.....tik tik tik....


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## CorporateAffairs

Zarvan said:


> Sir when on earth you will finally order these 126 planes ?


----------



## Paan Singh

they are sitting on files and plz continue to do so..


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## nomi007

toughest decision for airforce


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## SpArK

nomi007 said:


> toughest decision for airforce



what tough? lowest bidder gets the deal.. so simple mathematics..

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## Kadamba

INDIAN SOLDIER said:


> Nopes,,,, she would have gone for MIG-21 at cost of EF



May be she would scrap MMRCA and order 126 IL 76/78 *GAJRAJ*.  

@topic 



> Kukreja said both aircraft's, which have already been evaluated for their capabilities, are good. "*Whatever is beneficial to the country, we will choose,*" he said.


 

That means technological aspect is out of equitation in final decision making. Only price and political aspects are remaining. 

Which means price-wise Rafale has upper hand and Politics wise Typhoon has upper hand ?


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## RPK

rockstar said:


> Will they release the lowest bidder details to public on 4th?


 
on my birthday

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## RPK

Guys Count on for my birthday


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## Nirvana

^^ Happy Birthday In advance

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## PERSIAN GOD KING

The EF is much better.


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## Contract Killer

EFT all the way


----------



## rai_kamal

GOGOGOGO EFT..


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Abingdonboy said:


> God, I'm a SO ready for this project to be over!! We seem to be being fed so many arbitrary deadlines that don't really put us any closer to an end result. Lets be honest whichever one IAF gets will be awesome and certainly better than what they are replacing and surely give India's neighbours a *warm feeling in their collective pants *(not that the sight of MKI doesn't already have that effect on them).


 
haha Im sure did u check it...


another failed trolling attempt.

@ topic.. id go for ef.


----------



## tvsram1992

Zarvan said:


> Sir when on earth you will finally order these 126 planes ?


when we feel Pakistani Jf17 s are much stronger than mki.
No offense. I replied for your troll message.


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## tvsram1992

nomi007 said:


> now a day i m playing hawx1 in which i m flying both jets
> i feel both have same capabilities but Rafael shape is better than ef-2000


 Oh s h i t, you got to know their weakness also.

---------- Post added at 06:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:33 PM ----------




Pakistani Nationalist said:


> haha Im sure did u check it...
> 
> 
> another failed trolling attempt.
> 
> @ topic.. id go for ef.


but ef consortium is not ready to sell to you.


----------



## Paan Singh

RPK said:


> on my birthday



one day before my bday


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## INDIAN SOLDIER

Prism said:


> one day before my bday



Hoping your B'days would bring a full stop to this long awaited drama..... 
BTW Happy B'day in advance to both of you and may your all wishes come true(genuine ones only )!!!

It seems like EF gonna make this one but I like Rafale though 

India eyes 'flawless' Typhoon for 7 bln pounds: report - Brahmand.com

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## Paan Singh

INDIAN SOLDIER said:


> Hoping your B'days would bring a full stop to this long awaited drama.....
> BTW Happy B'day in advance to both of you and may your all wishes come true(genuine ones only )!!!



on 5th nov ,i rocked the world


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

tvsram1992 said:


> Oh s h i t, you got to know their weakness also.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 06:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:33 PM ----------
> 
> 
> *but ef consortium is not ready to sell to you*.



Pak never asked for ef... though rafael was offered to us in mid 2000s. but due to massive earth quake in azad kashmir we had to divert the funds..

Second i said tht if i were to choose between the 2 jets...id choose between the 2 jets.


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## tvsram1992

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Pak never asked for ef... though rafael was offered to us in mid 2000s. but due to massive earth quake in azad kashmir we had to divert the funds..
> 
> Second i said tht if i were to choose between the 2 jets...id choose between the 2 jets.


so u diverted $billions for earth quake . Come on man .


----------



## Archie

drunken-monke said:


> Well its unlikely to have a very narrow gap between the prices of both fighter jets. Hence we can expect the fast track deal (if possible). But the question still remains unclear that, what would be gap between price tag of both fighter, and what would be the range of gap for taking the fast decision.



Well my guess is that Eurofighter will be atleast 20 Million USD per aircraft more expensive than Rafale 
Infact Rafale will cost 14 Billion USD for 126 aircrafts while EF could cost atleast 16.5 Billion USD

---------- Post added at 09:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:28 PM ----------




Pakistani Nationalist said:


> haha Im sure did u check it...
> 
> 
> another failed trolling attempt.
> 
> @ topic.. id go for ef.



Yeah 
Zardari told this to Condileesa Rice


----------



## sancho

rockstar said:


> Once Indian respresentive at Italy stated that EF is leading in technical parameters.



Exactly...



> By Valentina Rusconi
> 
> ROME, Jan 22 (Reuters) - The Eurofighter Typhoon is "leading the race" to win a contract from the Indian government for 126 fighter jets, valued at around $10.4 billion, India's ambassador to Italy said on Friday.
> 
> "We have shortlisted four to five countries, then the trial process and evaluation will follow. Eurofighter is one of them, in which Italy is involved, and it's leading the race," ambassador Arif Shahid Khan told Reuters after a meeting with a senior aid to Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi...



UPDATE 1-Eurofighter leading race for India deal- ambassador | Reuters


So according *ITALIAN* media report from *JAN 2010*, the Indian ambassador in *ITALY* said EF is leading, during a meeting with the *ITALIAN PM. *
Buddy, please don't tell me you took that obvious PR report seriously. 

A) No Indian media report, nor any Indian official of MoD or IAF ever confirmed this and Italy as we know is an EF partner country
B) The EF arrived in India to do the trials, one month after this report appeared 
C) An ambassador in Italy which is not related to the competition, has no idea who is leading the competition




rockstar said:


> It might be true that EF is good in technical specifications than Rafale during the trails.



The EF is not a bad fighter and it has a lot of potential, but mainly on paper and not in reality! The EFs which were fielded in the trials in India had no IRST, limited EWS and no A2G capability at all. So IAF was able to get an idea of the good flight performance and how it performs loaded with full missile load + fuel tanks maybe, but that's it. Not to forget that the EF was the only fighter that wasn't able to show at least a real prototype version of the AESA radar during test flights, if at all they showed the older CESAR demonstrator, which has no swashplate design. The weapon trials were definitelly only about 1000lb LGBs, possibly IAF officials were also able to see some of the testings to certify the 500lb Paveway IV LGBs, which again is nothing impressive at all.
Compared to what Rafale was or the US fighters were able to demonstrate in India itself, this was nothing and that's why I said, the EF (as a fighter) can only score with possible future capabilities (in case they are funded), but mainly with side advantages like ToT, industrial and political benefits mabye.


----------



## SpArK

@ sancho

Infact Italy was pissed off with rafale.



> At 5:45 p.m. on March 19, three hours before the official start of the air campaign over Libya, *four French Rafale* jet fighters streaked across the Mediterranean coastline to attack a column of tanks heading toward the rebel city of Benghazi. The jets quickly obliterated their targets -- and in doing so nearly upended the international alliance coming to Benghazi's rescue.
> France's head start on the air war infuriated Italy's prime minister, who accused Paris of upstaging NATO. Silvio Berlusconi warned darkly of cutting access to Italian air bases vital to the alliance's warplanes.



Clinton praised for Libya mission's success - CBS News


----------



## RPK

Omnirole Rafale Steals Lead Over Eurofighter Typhoon in Libyan Operations : Defense news

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## sancho

SpArK said:


> @ sancho
> 
> Infact Italy was pissed off with rafale.
> 
> 
> 
> Clinton praised for Libya mission's success - CBS News



Hehe, not surprising, first of all, their current PM is nuts! Secondly, Italy always wants to be a major player in Europe especialy on the political side, but they aren't, that's why they envy countries like France, UK and even Germany and why they are even against Germany beeing a permanent UNC member. But if you followed the things here at the moment regarding the EURO crisis, you might have seen who is really leading Europe/the EURO countries, it's Germany, France and the UK.


----------



## SpArK

Press Information Bureau English Releases


----------



## sancho

RPK said:


> Omnirole Rafale Steals Lead Over Eurofighter Typhoon in Libyan Operations : Defense news





> ...In contrast, the UK Air Force deployed the *Typhoon in a supporting role to its older generation aircraft, the Tornado.* In a briefing about the Libyan operations, the UK's Commander of Joint Operations (CJO), Air Marshal Sir Stuart Peach last week explained that the complimentary way in which the Typhoons worked alongside the Tornados, using their targeting pods to create additional intelligence and reconnaissance, was very important. The Tornados carried British-designed and British-built Brimstone missiles, which proved to be a world class weapon system, the Air Marshal was quoted as saying in a U.K MoD release. The Brimstone missile have been offered to India as part of the MMRCA weapons package.
> 
> In separate briefings, U.K. officials have been quoted as saying that the Typhoon flew 600 combat missions *but surprisingly details of its offensive role in terms of enemy targets engaged have not been forthcoming.* A briefing was given to top Indian Air Force officials last month about the weapons used by the Eurofighter Tornado and Typhoon. Reports of the briefing tell that MBDA Brimstone air-to-surface missiles were launched from RAF's Tornado GR4 fighters. In addition Storm Shadow missiles were fired from Tornado GR4s to destroy radar stations and anti-aircraft batteries. *There has been no mention of what weapons the Typhoon carried.*
> 
> A Dassault executive who did not wish to be identified said *that the Eurofighter Typhoon* which is clearly not meant for a multi-mission role *played at best a supporting role in the Libyan operations.*



Confirms exactly what I said, when we have to rank the French and British fighters according their performance and importance during the Libyan conflict, it would be like this:

*1. Rafale* - Trully multi role capable, no matter if A2A, A2G, from land bases or carriers, with active air defences or without, recon or tanker roles, it simply did anything the French forces wants it to do!

*2. Tornado *- Some say it's old and a gen behind the EF, but it showed that all the generation talk is BS when it comes to actual operational service in war times. Then the true capability of a fighter counts and the Tornado is still more than capable in strike or recon roles, which is why it was the real prime fighter of the RAF in Libya! 

*3. Mirage 2000* - Deployed by the French in different versions and altough it's an older fighter as well, it showed that it is still very effective, no matter if it is A2A (Mirage 2000-5 ) CAS with LGBs, deep strikes with Scalp cruise missiles, or even heavy attacks on comand posts with 2000lb bunker busters.

*4. EF* - Showed up late, were deployed mainly in A2A roles and with it's very limited multi role capabilities, it was only able to assist the Tornados in the strike role. They offered situational awareness with the better avionc systems of the EF and with 1000lb LGBs an alternative weapon, incase big targets were available. The targeting pod was more of limited use, for damage assessment, but we also heared that EF pilots in their single seat fighters let the Tornado WSOs often take over the laser guidance, to share the workload. 


When you compare this with current IAF fleet, the MKI would be like the Rafale the most capable multi role fighter, followed by the Mirage 2000s, which would be comparable to the Tornados in Libya. The Mig 29s and 27s would do similar roles like the French Mirage 2000-5s and -Ds did, the Mig 29s escorting the 27s in the strike role. Which leaves the Jaguars which was used in assisting the Mirage 2000s during the Kargil war, similar to the EF assisting the Tornados in Libya.

That is the current situation of the EF, which is sad because it has a lot of potential too, but it's developing countries simply don't have the money, nor the interest to make it more capable and that's why they are so desperate to get us as a partner. For Indian industry and MoD/GoI this could be an interesting chance to get many benefits, for IAF on the other hand, it would mean to compromise for the next 6 to 7 years with a less capable, but highly costly (per unit, to operate and to upgrade) fighter, which is only useful in A2A roles.
So MoD/GoI will have to decide what is more important in MMRCA, the needs of our industry/politics, or the needs of our forces? The EF offers only advantages for 1 side, Rafale offers advantages for all sides, but "possibly" less industrial/political benefits than EADS/BAE or UK/GER can offer together and that's what will be negotiated after the comercial bids are opened!

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## Veeru

*India to Open Bids Friday for 126 Fighter Jets - The Wall Street Journal*

NEW DELHIIndia will open financial bids Friday of France's Dassault Aviation SA and European consortium Eurofighter GmbH for an estimated $10 billion contract to supply 126 fighter jets, a senior official in the country's defense ministry said Thursday.

"Our aim will be to select the vendor in the next three weeks," said the official, who declined to be named.

In late April, India short-listed Dassault and Eurofighter for the contract, considered *the biggest such deal globally in the past 15 years.*

Dassault offered the Rafale fighter jet to India for the contract, while Eurofighter offered the Typhoon jet, produced by a consortium of the U.K.'s BAE Systems PLC, Italy's Finmeccanica SpA and European Aeronautic Defence & Space Co.

Four other companiesU.S.-based Boeing Co. and Lockheed Martin Corp., as well Russia's United Aircraft Corp. and Sweden's Saab ABwere previously also in the race for the contract.

India to Open Bids Friday for 126 Fighter Jets - WSJ.com


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## Safriz

and the drama goes on....India is so craving to remain in the lime light for as long as possible that they are delaying their defense needs .. iam bored of these MMRCA or whatever threads.....There should be one cumulative dedicated thread for this instead of a bi-weekly news that india will finally award the contract to somebody next week,and that "Next week" has yet to come.

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## Paan Singh

safriz said:


> and the drama goes on....India is so craving to remain in the lime light for as long as possible that they are delaying their defense needs .. iam bored of these MMRCA or whatever threads.....There should be one cumulative dedicated thread for this instead of a bi-weekly news that india will finally award the contract to somebody next week,and that "Next week" has yet to come.



right.....i m sick too...


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## angeldemon_007

I agree with you with number threads but whats this joke about India doing this just to remain in spotlight...


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## lem34

Indians seriously need to look at their procurement methods

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## CorporateAffairs

Veeru said:


> *India to Open Bids Friday for 126 Fighter Jets -
> the biggest such deal globally in the past 15 years.*


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## tvsram1992

Rafale Rafale Rafale...................126 times


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## dr.crazze

its confirm its rafale on tech terms only the price bids await


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## angeldemon_007

> Indians seriously need to look at their procurement methods


Dude its not a small procurement program, such deals take time but i agree with you. If only the defence ministry would be filled with personnel from armed forces we will get proper and timely results. IAF completed the whole test and compiled a whole report and gave it to MOD last year and after that they had to explain all the technical details to bureaucrats just because they had no idea what the whole report was about. 

If MOD would have been filled with personals from all the 3 services the deal would have been inked by the end of 2010 itself. I hope somebody makes these changes also we should put somebody from armed forces in the Cabinet and CCS also alongwith a seat in both houses of Parliament so as to give voice to Indian armed forces.


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## SpArK

The final commercial bids in India's medium multirole combat aircraft (MMRCA) competition will be opened today at the country's Ministry of Defence. Representatives from Dassault and EADS Cassidian will be present at the process. \


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## rockstarIN

Everybody hold their horses..hope, media will get a clue about this..


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## Abingdonboy

This magical date of Nov 4th has been spouted about but what does it actually mean? Sealed bids will be opened? We still are unlikely to hear anything for a while as this is to be done behind closed doors and kept relatively quiet (of course I except the same speculation we always get). And anyway I hear the "benchmarking" process can take quite some time as it is incredibly complicated to do. 


All I'm saying is (whilst I wish the opposite were true) we still won't have a much clearer idea of outcome of MMRCA this time tomorrow.

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## kaykay

hope we would know if anyone is leading.....media where are you?


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## ptltejas

SpArK said:


> The final commercial bids in India's medium multirole combat aircraft (MMRCA) competition will be opened today at the country's Ministry of Defence. Representatives from Dassault and EADS Cassidian will be present at the process. \


 
whether winner will be decided today or after bid decision will be taken on parameters.


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## vijayjha

Euro-fighter might be a better plane but considering indian Scenario Rafale is is well suited
1. if india chooses Euro-fighter then pakistan can go for Rafale while if india chooses Rafale then it will be very hard for pakistan to purchase Euro-fighter as pakistan has to deal with multiple countries including USA and given current image of pakistan its highly unlikely ans as far as china is concerned chiana cannt get any one of these plane
2. Euro-fighter is expensive compared to Rafale thus in curent economic scenario its really hard for pakistan to go for expensive toys like Euro-fighter
so if India selects Euro-fighter India will block both planes for Pakistan
as f18 and Mig-35 already out of scope of Pakistan thus they are left only with options like Gripen ans Chinese plane but again in case of Gripen pakistan will have to deal with many european cuountries which is again a hard nut to crack for pakistan


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## ptltejas

vijayjha said:


> Euro-fighter might be a better plane but considering indian Scenario Rafale is is well suited
> 1. if india chooses Euro-fighter then pakistan can go for Rafale while if india chooses Rafale then it will be very hard for pakistan to purchase Euro-fighter as pakistan has to deal with multiple countries including USA and given current image of pakistan its highly unlikely ans as far as china is concerned chiana cannt get any one of these plane
> 2. Euro-fighter is expensive compared to Rafale thus in curent economic scenario its really hard for pakistan to go for expensive toys like Euro-fighter


 
How U come on conclusion that pakpurchase or european sale Rafale or EF to pakistan sir?

they r on fc 1 & j 10 only.


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## vijayjha

ptltejas said:


> How U come on conclusion that pakpurchase or european sale Rafale or EF to pakistan sir?
> 
> they r on fc 1 & j 10 only.


pak had gone for mirage and f16 in past


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## ptltejas

Absolute right but right now its not so. pak has already f 16 and going to purchase only fc 1 & j 10. so hard to believe they expence for these stuff.

moreover france or EF countries will
not sale it as chance that china copy the same.


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## SpArK

At 3PM today, the final stage of India's largest defence deal, for new figher jets


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## vijayjha

ptltejas said:


> Absolute right but right now its not so. pak has already f 16 and going to purchase only fc 1 & j 10. so hard to believe they expence for these stuff.
> 
> moreover france or EF countries will
> not sale it as chance that china copy the same.


but i am 100% sure that if india goes for Eurofighter france will not loose any opportunity to find new customer


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## angeldemon_007

> pak had gone for mirage and f16 in past


PAF have shown interest in Rafale and i have the same opinion, Pak will not purchase EF and so we should go for Rafale and in this way we won't have to see the fight between Rafale and EF but if we will go for EF PAF will purchase a couple squadron of Rafale. We can also see Gripen entering in PAF's portfolios.


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## ptltejas

SpArK said:


> At 3PM today, the final stage of India's largest defence deal, for new figher jets


 
I m still confuse whether today they tell about final winner or just open bid and then later decide a wiinner?

just ans in one word,

Today or Later

Today 4 Nov A Navy Day.


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## nomi007

i hope euro typhoon will win


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## Bl[i]tZ

New Delhi: India's ministry of defence will open commercial bids on Friday for an $11 billion contract to buy fighter jets for the Indian Air Force. The tender for the supply of 126 medium range, multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) has now moved to the final stage with two European contractors, Eurofighter and Dassault, shortlisted as the final choices for the order.

Both sides have submitted their commercial terms and conditions, including pricing and under Indian competition rules the lowest bidder will secure the contract.


The MMRCA tender, invited bids from American, Russian and Swedish contractors as well, but these offerings were rejected in April.

At the meeting, scheduled for today, the final bids will be opened in the presence of supplier representatives. According to defence ministry sources it may take another fortnight atleast to go through the bid documents to determine the final winner.
 

The Eurofighter consortium has offered the Typhoon fighter. This is a four-nation consortium of EADS, representing Germany and Spain, Britain's BAE Systems and Italy's Finmeccanica

The other short-listed finalist, French Dassault, has offered its Rafale fighter.

domain-b.com : Commercial bids for $11bn IAF fighter jet order to open today












Fellow Indians,

Lets roll!

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## ptltejas

Europe will get Good News either way.


Whatever the winner then purchaase minimum one squardan of other.....? To satisfy members of PDF. ha...ha......!


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## kaykay

hopefully will get to know who is leading......hope for the best.


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## ptltejas

angeldemon_007 said:


> PAF have shown interest in Rafale and i have the same opinion, Pak will not purchase EF and so we should go for Rafale and in this way we won't have to see the fight between Rafale and EF but if we will go for EF PAF will purchase a couple squadron of Rafale. We can also see Gripen entering in PAF's portfolios.


 
R u thinking like this Sir?
Showing Interest is not enough. many other factors require to be considered.


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## ptltejas

Bl[i]tZ;2252348 said:


> New Delhi:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fellow Indians,
> 
> Lets roll!




Well just fortnight time not much more require to see bid with all conditions. The plane gives more things is also need to be considered.

The bid only not important but against price what they give.

Mercedise benz in 15-20 lakhs better than 15 lakhs Scoda.


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## kaykay

typhoon is going to make this one......my instinct is saying this.


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## indushek

A fortnight is okay if on 16th days we get to know the winner.


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## rockstarIN

PAF will not buy Rafale either even Rafale lost out from MRCA competition.


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## Black Widow

vijayjha said:


> but i am 100% sure that if india goes for Eurofighter france will not loose any opportunity to find new customer



PAF already have rejected Rafael. Rafael and EFT doesn't suit there doctrine.. They prefer Single Engine fighters. F16, J10B, F35 and Grippen are the machine Pakistan would be interested into...


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## kingdurgaking

vijayjha said:


> Euro-fighter might be a better plane but considering indian Scenario Rafale is is well suited
> 1. if india chooses Euro-fighter then pakistan can go for Rafale while if india chooses Rafale then it will be very hard for pakistan to purchase Euro-fighter as pakistan has to deal with multiple countries including USA and given current image of pakistan its highly unlikely ans as far as china is concerned chiana cannt get any one of these plane
> 2. Euro-fighter is expensive compared to Rafale thus in curent economic scenario its really hard for pakistan to go for expensive toys like Euro-fighter
> so if India selects Euro-fighter India will block both planes for Pakistan
> as f18 and Mig-35 already out of scope of Pakistan thus they are left only with options like Gripen ans Chinese plane but again in case of Gripen pakistan will have to deal with many european cuountries which is again a hard nut to crack for pakistan



Please come out of Pakistan centric defence deals... we are not buying any of them for PAF... 70% of MMRCA will be stationed near North-east..

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## jha

i hope both the deals are exorbitantly expensive .


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## Raje amar

jha said:


> i hope both the deals are exorbitantly expensive .



me too........

after 6 years of the declaration of the contract, i fear that the actual deal might have got doubled (inflation is the major contributer)


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## Storm Force

PAF are no position to reject $100m fighter planes

They are flying obselete F7 & MIRAGES which is 30 year old technology in 75% of the time.

They are replacing these with low cost budget THUNDERS costing $20m each ie a fraction of the cost

They are not in position to buy luxury high end fighters like typhoon or rafale


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## Storm Force

GOOD GOD another thread. ITS EXCITING but god lets get this done TODAY PLZ


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## Avatar

If price is the primary factor in Indian decision making, then France is winning this one. While both fighter's are on par with anything other than F-22, the Eurofighter will prove to be more expensive and not really required for the Indian scenario.

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## Imran Khan

so who is winner? today is mighty friday god damn 04-11-2011 as per they will open bids. i think bids are so tight they can't open them

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## Secur

Will they tell the price of the aircraft today which they choose to buy ( meaning that lowest bids of both the competitors are revealed to the media ) ? or its just that the winner is being announced ?


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## Xracer

Best of LUck Folks

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## JanjaWeed

what are the odds for both the fighters? which one is bookies favourite? I hope there is no last moment flight fixing!!


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## Vibs

Secur said:


> Will they tell the price of the aircraft today which they choose to buy ( meaning that lowest bids of both the competitors are revealed to the media ) ? or its just that the winner is being announced ?



Neither..the bids will be opened today..it will take 15 days to figure out the entire pricing (airplane cost, weapons cost, upgrade cost). Then a couple of months of bargaining..and then the result.

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## Backbencher

kaykay said:


> typhoon is going to make this one......my instinct is saying this.


rafale is going to make this one. .......iaf will say this. 
........broda

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## Agnostic_Indian

get any of them and lets start a f16/jf17/j10b vs mrca winner thread..lol..

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## Basanti

I cant imagine the intensity of FIRST TROLL WORLD WAR waiting to happen here at PDF once the winner is declared. 

but I m still excited to read all the BS that would come up here

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## Imran Khan

Agnostic_Indian said:


> get any of them and lets start a f16/jf17/j10b vs mrca winner thread..lol..



and have a nice troll day ? first declare mmrca then vs thread lolz

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## Black Widow

Storm Force said:


> PAF are no position to reject $100m fighter planes
> 
> They are flying obselete F7 & MIRAGES which is 30 year old technology in 75% of the time.
> 
> They are replacing these with low cost budget THUNDERS costing $20m each ie a fraction of the cost
> 
> They are not in position to buy luxury high end fighters like typhoon or rafale



Its not bout money, Its bout need. Pakistan is surrounded by weak countries. 
In East lies India which never attacked on pakistan. 
In south They have ocean, No country (Except USA) will attack them from south.
In west They have Iran and Afghanistan, two Islamin countries which will never attack on Pakistan.
In North lies Ex-Soviet countries and china, who never gonna attack on pakistan in next 2000 years...


So in nut shell, they don't need expensive machine, Pakistani govt will use the money to build infrastructure...


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## Safriz

Imran Khan said:


> so who is winner? today is mighty friday god damn 04-11-2011 as per they will open bids. i think bids are so tight they can't open them


They will start opening the bids today....when they will finish....Nobody knows..
Probably when they finish the MMRCA bidding process both Eurofighter and Rafael will already be in the Museum


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## GURU DUTT

​


Imran Khan said:


> and have a nice troll day ? first declare mmrca then vs thread lolz



Neki aur pooch - pooch?????????????


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## Imran Khan

Basanti said:


> I cant imagine the intensity of FIRST TROLL WORLD WAR waiting to happen here at PDF once the winner is declared.
> 
> but I m still excited to read all the BS that would come up here



and i am planing to leave for a week after mmrca win i don't damn wanna ban


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## Imran Khan

safriz said:


> They will start opening the bids today....when they will finish....Nobody knows..
> Probably when they finish the MMRCA bidding process both Eurofighter and Rafael will already be in the Museum



no no i have hope AANA HAZARY should go hunger strike on MMRCA ahahhahahaaha

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## SpArK

India fighter jet deal meeting starts with Eurofighter Typhoon, Rafale officials. Expected outcome at 530 pm.


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## ptltejas

SpArK said:


> India fighter jet deal meeting starts with Eurofighter Typhoon, Rafale officials. Expected outcome at 530 pm.


 
U will spark first today.


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## Storm Force

Imram why you going away after winner of MMRCA annouced ???


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## SpArK

Imran Khan said:


> no no i have hope ANNA HAZARY should go hunger strike on MMRCA ahahhahahaaha



Anna kournikova of Russia is planning a hunger strike instead.

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## Imran Khan

Storm Force said:


> Imram why you going away after winner of MMRCA annouced ???



first announce it man then i will decide .i don't wanna be part of troll war as i was part of usama raid troll threads part and got banned .then mehran attack i was banned again because i lose my mind


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## Vibs

Imran Khan said:


> no no i have hope AANA HAZARY should go hunger strike on MMRCA ahahhahahaaha



Who is AANA HAZARY? Why is she going on a hunger strike on an MMRCA when there are perfectly good pothole filled roads available? Are you saying ahahahaha as in a praising tone?
Beyond these queries I could get nothing out of your post.


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## SpArK

Its hunger strike week thats why.

Anna faris, Anna nicole smith , Anna Paquin, anna chapman (spy) are all on strike ..

You Guys make me troll.

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## SpArK

*Circula a informação de que o anúncio do vencedor do MMRCA será feito às 5:30pm na Índia*

Et Rafale va gagner.


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## Paan Singh

SpArK said:


> *Circula a informação de que o anúncio do vencedor do MMRCA será feito às 5:30pm na Índia*
> 
> Et Rafale va gagner.




eh punjabi language hai


----------



## Imran Khan

SpArK said:


> *Circula a informação de que o anúncio do vencedor do MMRCA será feito às 5:30pm na Índia*
> 
> Et Rafale va gagner.



spark bhai wo jo kehta hai bakwaas kerta hai i know it french


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## Paan Singh

nice a&&


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## Manas

SpArK said:


> *Circula a informação de que o anúncio do vencedor do MMRCA será feito às 5:30pm na Índia*
> 
> Et Rafale va gagner.



Frech bhassa amey Bujhi paruna , dayakari English re anubada kara !!


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## ptltejas

*Circulates information that the announcement of the winner of the MMRCA will be at 5:30 pm in India *




ne vous embêtez pas Spark, tout va bien, nous allons obtenir de bonnes nouvelles.

don't bother Spark, everything will be all right, we shall get good news


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## SpArK

This is but one last step before the lowest bidder is identified, as the Indian officials will peruse the commercial offers to see what the fly-away cost of the aircraft will be and then work for the next fortnight to arrive at the life cycle cost and the technology transfer cost on set parameters.


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## kaykay

got a news....the fighter deal soars to 20 billion dollar from previous 11 billion....can not post link right now you can still google

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## kaykay

got a news mmrca deal soars to $20 billion...from previous 11 billion....can not post link right now hope someone will do it.


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## Kadamba

*India fighter jet deal soars to $20bn
*
An Indian contract to buy 126 fighter jets from one of two European bidders could be worth $20bn, almost double the original estimate, according to the government.

The defence ministry revised up its initial $11bn estimate after reviewing bids from the Eurofighter Typhoon consortium and Frances Dassault, the maker of the Rafale aircraft, a ministry official told the Financial Times.

While the government has already received the bid details from the companies, it was expected to officially open the sealed envelopes with the full offers on Friday.

After reviewing the competing offers, the government will choose a lead bidder with whom it will then start negotiating a final price.

When the tender to modernise Indias air force, one of the biggest military aviation orders by a single country, was launched more than four years ago, it was estimated at $11bn.

In April, India shortlisted Eurofighter and Rafale after eliminating Boeings F/A-18, Lockheed Martins F-16, Russias MiG-35 and Swedish Saabs Gripen.

The decision to choose one of the European aircraft has not prevented the US from making a last-ditch effort to sell advanced fighters to India. The Pentagon this week told the US Congress that it was prepared to provide information to India about the F-35 Lightning II, a fifth-generation fighter aircraft produced by Lockheed Martin.

European defence companies have expressed concern that the US might try to short-circuit the bidding process with a new, more attractive offer outside of the terms of the competition.

But Indian defence analysts say that the process to choose the multi-role combat aircraft is too far advanced for a U-turn. A sudden departure from the process would dent credibility, they say, at a time when the conduct of Indias bureaucracy is under greater public scrutiny after a number of high profile corruption scandals.

India fighter jet deal soars to $20bn - FT.com

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## Paan Singh

this 20billion dollar will be enough to bail out defense industries...now typhoon has chances.


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## kaykay

now those bidders who have out say boing,saab,lockheed will be like 'missed 20 billions....oh sh¡T...'


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## ptltejas

Right bro. US Lockheed loss as not offered F35 before. Rus making foollish mistakes Losing everywhere after the Gorskov. Mig 35 MMRCA and then 22 Attack helicop.

Rus Just accept Indo Us nuke deal. Usa was first to offer.

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## Basanti

Imran Khan said:


> no no i have hope AANA HAZARY should go hunger strike on MMRCA ahahhahahaaha



Hu Jintao says that if the result of MMRCA comes out this year, he will make Zardari and Kayani go on a hunger strike. Baba Ramdev will also be there and he says US Army will come with lathis and make their A$$ garam.

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## ptltejas

* FORT NIGHT to go *


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## tvsram1992

Decision of the decade to be taken today


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## SpArK

Done..

Will take 6-8 weeks to detemine lowest bidder.

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## Cityboy

According to my sources it will be rafael...just wait and watch. .


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## SpArK

Cityboy said:


> According to my sources it will be *rafael*...just wait and watch. .



Israeli ???

Sources,, lol


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## Paan Singh

SpArK said:


> Done..
> 
> Will take 6-8 weeks to detemine lowest bidder.



i read it too,after life cycle cost etc successful bidder will be announced....

now i m not going to see this thread ever...
mmrca can suck the balls now..


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## kaykay

hell.....i can assume 2 months atleast...


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## Markus

Haha...the jokers want to play more with the files.

Koi jaake dekho bhai.....kahi files ko bhangaar mein na bech dale hamare babu log.

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## Thundersword

SpArK said:


> Israeli ???
> 
> Sources,, lol


He meant Rafale.....


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## Vimana

Eurofighter has won the bid


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## angeldemon_007

MMRCA fighter commercial bids opened in presence of reps from @EADSgroup & #Dassault. Will take 6-8 weeks to detemine lowest bidder.

Source : Livefist


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## Paan Singh

Vimana said:


> Eurofighter has won the bid


----------



## Vimana

Prism said:


>





It's done my friend you will see EF in Indian colours the Rafale is dead in the water nobody wants the jet


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## kaykay

Vimana said:


> It's done my friend you will see EF in Indian colours the Rafale is dead in the water nobody wants the jet


source please?....


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## GURU DUTT

kaykay said:


> source please?....



INDIA TV Network....

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## Vimana

kaykay said:


> source please?....





Don't need source when you have 6th sense like me  it will be EF in Indian colours


EF has better engines, better RCS, better A2A and in hot trial conditions did very well.

This is the plane Indian airforce wants and it will get.


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## Terminator

Really...

---------- Post added at 06:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:49 PM ----------

I am gonna bet my money on Eurofighter...


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## Paan Singh

angeldemon_007 said:


> MMRCA fighter commercial bids opened in presence of reps from @EADSgroup & #Dassault. Will take 6-8 weeks to detemine lowest bidder.
> 
> Source : Livefist


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## SpArK

Biggest deal: IAF may buy 189 jets for $20bn


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## Paan Singh

SpArK said:


> Biggest deal: IAF may buy 189 jets for $20bn



biggest begging of the tot


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## dr.crazze

its rafale so it appears on opening don't ask for sources


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## Paan Singh

crazzze said:


> its rafale so it appears on opening don't ask for sources



we wont ask for sources..another one was chanting for eft before


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## angeldemon_007

I just don't get it....i mean the finalist 2 were selected in March-April then why the hell MOD waited till November just to open the bids ? Can anyone throw some lights on this ?


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## SpArK

angeldemon_007 said:


> I just don't get it....i mean the finalist 2 were selected in March-April then why the hell MOD waited till November just to open the bids ? Can anyone throw some lights on this ?



So that they can announce it during christmas.


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## Paan Singh

angeldemon_007 said:


> I just don't get it....i mean the finalist 2 were selected in March-April then why the hell MOD waited till November just to open the bids ? Can anyone throw some lights on this ?



it will be 100 million $ per plane ,so eft have huge chances now.......


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## Vimana

Rafale only has UAE and Brazil chance to win


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## Zabaniyah

Rafale would be better for India's requirements.


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## Taygibay

^^^^^^^^^^
Yeah well, I'll wait by a coffee with crazzze on that one


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## Paan Singh

i will bet for jf-17 now..their meetings wont be over ever


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## Zabaniyah

Prism said:


> i will bet for jf-17 now..their meetings wont be over ever



Nah, go for F-7s


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## ashokdeiva

I vote for Euro fighter, it has better RCS compared to Rafel and a better engine. If Euro Fighter is fitted with ASEA that is serve the IFA needs for the next 15 years with out any problem

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## Paan Singh

*MMRCA Bids Open, Lowest Bidder In December*






The M-MRCA bids are officially open. Senior officials from Dassault and EADS Cassidian were at Air Force HQ for the authentication and opening of bids in the presence of a host of MoD officers including, my sources tell me, DG (Acquisitions) Vivek Rae, Joint Secretary & Acquisition Manager (Air) Ranjan Ghose and Technical Manager (Air) Air Vice Marshal J.S. Panesar.

EADS Cassidian released this statement shortly after the opening of bids: Our offer for India&#8217;s Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) tender is backed by the four Eurofighter partner nations as well as their respective aerospace and defence industries. It is competitive and designed to deliver maximum value to India. Our proposal to make India a full partner in the Eurofighter programme is fully supported by Germany, the UK, Spain and Italy.


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## Paan Singh

*MMRCA Bids Open, Lowest Bidder In December*





The M-MRCA bids are officially open. Senior officials from Dassault and EADS Cassidian were at Air Force HQ for the authentication and opening of bids in the presence of a host of MoD officers including, my sources tell me, DG (Acquisitions) Vivek Rae, Joint Secretary & Acquisition Manager (Air) Ranjan Ghose and Technical Manager (Air) Air Vice Marshal J.S. Panesar.

EADS Cassidian released this statement shortly after the opening of bids: Our offer for India&#8217;s Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) tender is backed by the four Eurofighter partner nations as well as their respective aerospace and defence industries. It is competitive and designed to deliver maximum value to India. Our proposal to make India a full partner in the Eurofighter programme is fully supported by Germany, the UK, Spain and Italy.

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## SpArK

Examining the bids- which include upfront costs, spares, consumables, setting up facilities for assembly besides life cycle costs may take a while before arriving at which among the two aircraft, the Eurofighter Typhoon or the Dassault Rafale was the lowest bidder.

.

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## karan.1970

lets see who leaks first


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## Major Shaitan Singh

Announcement of the final winner in Indias Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft(MMRCA)tender may have to wait a while as the process of evaluation of the price bids of Eurofighter and Dasssault commenced in New Delhi today with the opening of the bids in the presence of the representatives of both companies.

Informed sources told that examining the bids- which include upfront costs, spares, consumables, setting up facilities for assembly besides life cycle costs may take a while before arriving at which among the two aircraft, the Eurofighter Typhoon or the Dassault Rafale was the lowest bidder.

*The exercise may take weeks and the results will then be forwarded to the government to take a decision on which of the two aircraft costs the least taking all aspects into consideration. One aircraft may be low on initial cost but high on life-cycle costs. The proposals will have to be minutely examined, said the source.*

Both the aircraft are considered technically qualified which means the Indian Air Force will have to accept any one of the aircraft which the government finds to have offered the lowest pricing from a comprehensive perspective.


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## SpArK

So what comes cheap... Typhoon or Rafale? 

They both know now and we should soon.


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## Paan Singh

so whose life cycle cost is low??+
purchase cost is low??


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## IndoCarib

India to Make Fighter Choice Soon - WSJ.com


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## Major Shaitan Singh

Announcement of the final winner in India&#8217;s Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft(MMRCA)tender may have to wait a while as the process of evaluation of the price bids of Eurofighter and Dasssault commenced in New Delhi today with the opening of the bids in the presence of the representatives of both companies.

Informed sources told that examining the bids- which include upfront costs, spares, consumables, setting up facilities for assembly besides life cycle costs may take a while before arriving at which among the two aircraft, the Eurofighter Typhoon or the Dassault Rafale was the lowest bidder.

*&#8220;The exercise may take weeks and the results will then be forwarded to the government to take a decision on which of the two aircraft costs the least taking all aspects into consideration. One aircraft may be low on initial cost but high on life-cycle costs. The proposals will have to be minutely examined&#8221;, said the source.*

Both the aircraft are considered technically qualified which means the Indian Air Force will have to accept any one of the aircraft which the government finds to have offered the lowest pricing from a comprehensive perspective.

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## Ambitious449

ssshhhhhhhh.............The winner will be either Euro fighter or Rafael. Don't tell anyone

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## Imran Khan

India to Make Fighter Choice Soon - WSJ.com

which soon ? 215 2018 2035 2096 ?

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## mjnaushad

Imran Khan said:


> India to Make Fighter Choice Soon - WSJ.com
> 
> which soon ? 215 2018 2035 2096 ?



Imran Bhai hamarey tu Bachey Jawan ho gaye hain.... Jab yeh tender bid start hua thi woh peda bhi nahi huey they....

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## Ambitious449

mjnaushad said:


> Imran Bhai hamarey tu Bachey Jawan ho gaye hain.... Jab yeh tender bid start hua thi woh peda bhi nahi huey they....



console urself


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## IndoCarib

Imran Khan said:


> India to Make Fighter Choice Soon - WSJ.com
> 
> which soon ? 215 2018 2035 2096 ?



Are you blind ?

*India expects to choose within a month *between France's Dassault Aviation SA and European consortium Eurofighter GmbH for an estimated $10 billion contract to supply 126 fighter jets to its air force, a senior defense ministry official said Friday.

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## Paan Singh

Imran Khan said:


> India to Make Fighter Choice Soon - WSJ.com
> 
> which soon ? 215 2018 2035 2096 ?



i think 3011
they make chutiya of all others ..this is called as banya calculator..always hoping for low cost and more profit..ready to sacrifice every thing.

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## Emmie

mjnaushad said:


> Imran Bhai hamarey tu Bachey Jawan ho gaye hain.... Jab yeh tender bid start hua thi woh peda bhi nahi huey they....



Mere baal sufaid ho gae suntay suntay... Itne arsay mein tau India kudh ka MRCA bana sakta tha.

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## Imran Khan

mjnaushad said:


> Imran Bhai hamarey tu Bachey Jawan ho gaye hain.... Jab yeh tender bid start hua thi woh peda bhi nahi huey they....



ye tender us zamany ka hai jab mobile phone nay nay ayee thy ab tum khud soch lo bhi 1bn$ currency velue kam ho chuki hai ab tak

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## IndoCarib

Emmie said:


> Mere baal sufaid ho gae *suntay suntay*... Itne arsay mein tau India kudh ka MRCA bana sakta tha.



To suno math ! Who asked you to ?


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## SpArK

Imran Khan said:


> ye tender us zamany ka hai jab mobile phone nay nay ayee thy ab tum khud soch lo bhi 1bn$ currency velue kam ho chuki hai ab tak



The fighters -16IN, Rafale, EFT, Super Hornets,Gripen NG and Mig-35 are relativily newer ones. If we had chosen it long time back, we would have been left with Mirage without any AESA or ToT.

So its good , it came late.

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## kaykay

aab toh mmrca topic pe baat karne ka bhi mann nahi karta.......har bar like chalo one last time and then i quit talking......itni deseperately se wait toh apne IIT-JEE ke result ke liye bhi nahi kiya tha.

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## Imran Khan

Prism said:


> i think 3011
> they make chutiya of all others ..this is called as banya calculator..always hoping for low cost and more profit..ready to sacrifice every thing.



and they will trial again that time 190th generation fighter air craft 

---------- Post added at 05:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:57 PM ----------




IndoCarib said:


> To suno math ! Who asked you to ?



this is open forum i can understand your anger bachy always when we login we see word MMRCA lolz 

ab to cheerdh ban gai hai kisi bhi indian ko MMRCA kaho wo gali deta hai agy se 

---------- Post added at 05:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:59 PM ----------




kaykay said:


> aab toh mmrca topic pe baat karne ka bhi mann nahi karta.......har bar like chalo one last time and then i quit talking......itni deseperately se wait toh apne IIT-JEE ke result ke liye bhi nahi kiya tha.




don't worry yaar i am scared they start trail again and say last time there was some issue

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## SpArK

The fighters down selected are relativly new.

EFT orders are on production phase so does the Rafale.

They are competing in other deals which will come later than the Indian deal.

So MRCA is not obsolete or out of date order. Its the latest and best of whats available.

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## Contract Killer

Yaar....... Kasam se. Had ho gayee hai. In MOD walon ko ab laton se marna padega tab jake ye kuch bakenge.

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## SpArK

Prism said:


> so whose life cycle cost is low??+
> purchase cost is low??



life cycle cost.

Rafale for sure.. it has been build to have lower life cycle costs and lesser maintenance.

Next point is production facility. Rafale gets a head start with Mirage facilities.

Spares, consumables. well ...EFT has been hit earlier by spares issue.



.

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## deep.ocean

Contract Killer said:


> Yaar....... Kasam se. Had ho gayee hai. In MOD walon ko ab laton se marna padega tab jake ye kuch bakenge.


Kaamchor hain s**le.. Commision khhane ke chance dhoondh rahe hain h@r@mi..


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## angeldemon_007

> it will be 100 million $ per plane ,so eft have huge chances now.......


Sorry i don't get it...opening this bid at this point of time is costing us more because of exchange rate. Why EFT has more chance ? If the price of EFT will fall so will the price of Rafale. In my personnel opinion i don't want my government to spend so much on EF if they can get F35 in lesser cost, nit to mention the makers themselves are not showing interest in EF, they are also going for F35.


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## Emmie

IndoCarib said:


> To suno math ! Who asked you to ?



There's a saying in Urdu " Murda Bole Kafan Phare".... It perfectly corresponds you..

Bhai its a general forum... Who asks you to post news related to MMRCA?

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## Imran Khan

deep.ocean said:


> Kaamchor hain s**le.. Commision khhane ke chance dhoondh rahe hain h@r@mi..



aysa nhi kehty yaar wo to time pass ker rahy thy real mmrca will be PAK-FA .ye to mazak tha bus .i wonder what today thinkin refale and eu fighter CEOs


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## kaykay

Imran Khan said:


> and they will trial again that time 190th generation fighter air craft
> 
> ---------- Post added at 05:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:57 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> this is open forum i can understand your anger bachy always when we login we see word MMRCA lolz
> 
> ab to cheerdh ban gai hai kisi bhi indian ko MMRCA kaho wo gali deta hai agy se
> 
> ---------- Post added at 05:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:59 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> don't worry yaar i am scared they start trail again and say last time there was some issue


agreed Imran bhai aur waise bhi ye India hai aur yaha kuch bhi ho sakta hai.....and even if this would be done i wouldn't be surprise at all.


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## IndoCarib

@ Emmie

What is this forum for ? And this section for ? Nobody forced you to be bombarded by MMRCA news


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## Contract Killer

Yaar ab to intrest bhi khatam kar diya hai in s.... lon ne. Is topic pe itna discussion kar liya hum logon ne ki .........aisa lagta hai jaise humne khud in dono plane ko uda ke test kiya hai.

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## Imran Khan

kaykay said:


> agreed Imran bhai aur waise bhi ye India hai aur yaha kuch bhi ho sakta hai.....and even if this would be done i wouldn't be surprise at all.



yes dear i know yahaan kuch bhi ho sakta hai BTW nice option was LCA work on MCA adopt more PAK-FA and PAK-DA i don't know why this 4++gen at this time .


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## Emmie

@ Indo Carib... How about people who compare MRCA with its possible Pakistani counterpart on different section? Do you close your eyes there?


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## Imran Khan

IndoCarib said:


> @ Emmie
> 
> What is this forum for ? And this section for ? Nobody forced you to be bombarded by MMRCA news



tum kiyoon garmi kha rahy ho maharaj? nhi select hoa MMRCA is liye? hum ne nhi kiya? 

jao pani peo nai date mil jay gee kal tumhy 

---------- Post added at 06:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:16 PM ----------




Contract Killer said:


> Yaar ab to intrest bhi khatam kar diya hai in s.... lon ne. Is topic pe itna discussion kar liya hum logon ne ki .........aisa lagta hai jaise humne khud in dono plane ko uda ke test kiya hai.



MOD waly araam ker rahy hai or hans rahy hai ke dekho kesy chuitya banaya

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## Emmie

Imran Khan said:


> tum kiyoon garmi kha rahy ho maharaj? nhi select hoa MMRCA is liye? hum ne nhi kiya?
> 
> jao pani peo nai date mil jay gee kal tumhy
> 
> ---------- Post added at 06:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:16 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> MOD waly araam ker rahy hai or hans rahy hai ke dekho kesy chuitya banaya



Sir jee yeh wahid banda he jo rooz Aag bagula hota hay... Is ke kamre mein AC nae hy kya?


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## harpoon

SpArK said:


> life cycle cost.
> 
> Rafale for sure.. it has been build to have lower life cycle costs and lesser maintenance.
> 
> Next point is production facility. Rafale gets a head start with Mirage facilities.
> 
> Spares, consumables. well ...EFT has been hit earlier by spares issue.
> 
> 
> 
> .



So how many MIG 21 pilots had to die before they find out this things.


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## karan.1970

^I am looking for a list of all crashes till date in IAF.. Any directions ?


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## Imran Khan

Emmie said:


> Sir jee yeh wahid banda he jo rooz Aag bagula hota hay... Is ke kamre mein AC nae hy kya?



to bhi AC lagwa le mmrce deal ke pessy pary hai na is ke pass kitny hazar crrore hain kaliya

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## kaykay

karan.1970 said:


> ^I am looking for a list of all crashes till date in IAF.. Any directions ?


go to warbirds.in you will get all details there since 1932....sorry couldnot post link right now i am outside and with phone only.


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## Doctor09

what happen to MMRCA deal ? anything new ?


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## IndoCarib

Emmie said:


> @ Indo Carib... How about people who compare MRCA with its possible Pakistani counterpart on different section? Do you close your eyes there?



I dont visit and dont post in that section


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## Imran Khan

karan.1970 said:


> ^I am looking for a list of all crashes till date in IAF.. Any directions ?



to ye bolo na bachy hum yahaan jhak mar rahy hai? 

ye complete nhi hai per is se complete koi or nhi hai bachy 

http://www.ejection-history.org.uk/

India








---------- Post added at 06:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:24 PM ----------




doctor09 said:


> what happen to MMRCA deal ? anything new ?



wohi roz ka topi drama ab na maloom date tak chup ho jao .phly hi public ne patakhy liye thy or ab ghusa hai ke dewaali ayee hi nhi

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## Doctor09

Imran Khan said:


> to ye bolo na bachy hum yahaan jhak mar rahy hai?
> 
> ye complete nhi hai per is se complete koi or nhi hai bachy
> 
> http://www.ejection-history.org.uk/
> 
> India
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ---------- Post added at 06:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:24 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> *wohi roz ka topi drama ab na maloom date tak chup ho jao .phly hi public ne patakhy liye thy or ab ghusa hai ke dewaali ayee hi nhi :*rofl:


du chaar mig21 gira kar khushi mana lu yaru .................
i think MOD is not interested in mmrca deal ............. it was just a hype


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## Imran Khan

doctor09 said:


> du chaar mig21 gira kar khushi mana lu yaru .................
> i think MOD is not interested in mmrca deal ............. it was just a hype




and those who waste millions lick feet of india will cry loudly today . they must say is se to acha tha hum apny 38 jets pakistan ko bech dety 

specially grippen  and if french lose it they will be really so much sad may be sarkozy call same night to zardari for new deal like agusta commission loot mar

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## Emmie

IndoCarib said:


> I dont visit and dont post in that section



So what? It doesn't mean others don't post there.. You better ask your countrymen to abstain from posting on those sections prior to asking Pakistanis to stop reading and posting on MMRCA related threads on Indian section.

You represent a typical mind.. Pathetic


----------



## Imran Khan

Emmie said:


> So what? It doesn't mean others don't post there.. You better ask your countrymen to abstain from posting on those sections prior to asking Pakistanis to stop reading and posting on MMRCA related threads on Indian section.
> 
> You represent a typical mind.. Pathetic



yaar bus ker de usy reply mat ker tum janty ho kya guzerty hai dil per every time when last date of bid cross and happen nothing? tum per kabhi guzri nhi na is liye

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## ptltejas

Whats Going on Yaar. We wait since many years and many knowedge increasing posts discussed. many members are such expert that they know more about both fighters about weight, size, fuel weapons. 

Its just fortnight to go. Its require to see cost and other parameters. We wait for 99 and just before one more to 100 feeling frustation. This process is Necessary and will be take just fort night.

Well buddy How many of You can tell weight, Size, engine out put etc. of your own Vehicle - schooter, bike, car? whether u know more about vehicle u have or rafale and eurofighter?


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## Varad

Atleast they should have told, which one is ahead.


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## Emmie

Imran Khan said:


> yaar bus ker de usy reply mat ker tum janty ho kya guzerty hai dil per every time when last date of bid cross and happen nothing? tum per kabhi guzri nhi na is liye



  I can understand his state of mind.. Aur Allah na kare mujh per aisa kuch guzre.. Deal na hoi payee ho gai puk he nae rahay.


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## Imran Khan

ptltejas said:


> Whats Going on Yaar. We wait since many years and many knowedge increasing posts discussed. many members are such expert that they know more about both fighters about weight, size, fuel weapons.
> 
> Its just fortnight to go. Its require to see cost and other parameters. We wait for 99 and just before one more to 100 feeling frustation. This process is Necessary and will be take just fort night.
> 
> Well buddy How many of You can tell weight, Size, engine out put etc. of your own Vehicle - schooter, bike, car? whether u know more about vehicle u have or rafale and eurofighter?



at least they make you master in 5 jets now enjoy your knowledge man . BTW why you are waiting go to work bachy


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## ptltejas

Imran Khan said:


> at least they make you master in 5 jets now enjoy your knowledge man . BTW why you are waiting go to work bachy


 
Mind ur buisness man. If I wait what ur prob. Oh know what is problem.


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## Contract Killer

Yaar humare MOD itne miss call kyun dete hai?? I think definitely french were winning so phone call must have come from itly. Madam ne bola hoga stop. Now i will decide.


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## karan.1970

Imran Khan said:


> to ye bolo na bachy hum yahaan jhak mar rahy hai?
> 
> ye complete nhi hai per is se complete koi or nhi hai bachy
> 
> http://www.ejection-history.org.uk/
> 
> India




Thanks Imran Bhai.. 

So am I reading it wrong or have there been only 3-4 Bison crashes in last 10-12 years.. ??


----------



## Imran Khan

karan.1970 said:


> Thanks Imran Bhai..
> 
> So am I reading it wrong or have there been only 3-4 Bison crashes in last 10-12 years.. ??



karan bhai he is forum member let me check but he try his best to add crashes .there is no 100% info on net yaar you know it

---------- Post added at 07:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:22 PM ----------




Contract Killer said:


> Yaar humare MOD itne miss call kyun dete hai?? I think definitely french were winning so phone call must have come from itly. Madam ne bola hoga stop. Now i will decide.




wo busy hai film dekhny mai or muni badnam hoi wala song sunny main


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## Imran Khan

ptltejas said:


> Mind ur buisness man. If I wait what ur prob. Oh know what is problem.



heey heey hold your horses please if you feel bad sorry it was light joke and no need to be harmed from it .


----------



## Paan Singh

i think information about today's meeting will be leaked.They cant hide this for 2 months

---------- Post added at 10:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:59 PM ----------




Imran Khan said:


> heey heey hold your horses please if you feel bad sorry it was light joke and no need to be harmed from it .



imran bhai,i think eft will take this deal.coz its 20 billion dollars.
america must be banging their heads on wall


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## Imran Khan

Prism said:


> i think information about today's meeting will be leaked.They cant hide this for 2 months
> 
> ---------- Post added at 10:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:59 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> imran bhai,i think eft will take this deal.coz its 20 billion dollars.
> america must be banging their heads on wall



lets see yaar there was meeting today for what ?


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## Paan Singh

Imran Khan said:


> lets see yaar there was meeting today for what ?



phir bhi aap kya kehte ho..i think now eft have serious chances in long term.
this deal is to boost the local industry not to get aircraft at first priority
and they are ready to sale ..


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## WHITESMOKE

Ab ye saale MOD k bander kab decision denge...  PDF pe logon ne bandwidth ki maan behan ek kar rakhi hai MMRCA pe..

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## Imran Khan

Prism said:


> phir bhi aap kya kehte ho..i think now eft have serious chances in long term.
> this deal is to boost the local industry not to get aircraft at first priority
> and they are ready to sale ..



you know i hope and pray they go for eft not refale  its my wish


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## kaykay

chalo ek baar fir se ho jaye..........i bet on typhoon...anyone agree with me?..anyone?


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## Imran Khan

kaykay said:


> chalo ek baar fir se ho jaye..........i bet on typhoon...anyone agree with me?..anyone?



yes yes i hope so yaar refale koi koi nhi le ga end main pakistan 100 refale le ga 35mn$ each

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## WHITESMOKE

Imran Khan said:


> yes yes i hope so yaar refale koi koi nhi le ga end main pakistan 100 refale le ga 35mn$ each



Imran Bhai, agar aisa ho gya to India ko thank you jarur bolna.. or 100 kyon 150 to kar hi lo.. rate thoda or kam kra lena..


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## kaykay

Imran Khan said:


> yes yes i hope so yaar refale koi koi nhi le ga end main pakistan 100 refale le ga 35mn$ each


hehe koi nhi...aap rafale rakh lo aur hume typhoon jaldi se dilwa do.....waise idea bura nahi hai if paf goes for rafale then typhoon will be announced wiinner within one hour....kidding


----------



## rai_kamal

Imran Khan said:


> yes yes i hope so yaar refale koi koi nhi le ga end main pakistan 100 refale le ga *35mn$* each



Nice joke yaar,if they have to offer it in 35$mn then India will buy 252 of those.Before u would send Request of Information.


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## Archie

As per New channels 
MOD will announce the lowest bidder by December 
MOD has also confirmed that the finalized* deal would be for 20 Billion USD and Not 11-12 Billion* as Previously thought , coz that price was set in 2007 and first aircraft will be delivered in 2014

Though NDTV just reported that *Weapons package for mmrca will cost about 3-4 Billion USD* depending on the number of AAM and A2G armament ordered and will be included in the 20 Billion USD agreement.
Also cost of *Mentainence infrastructure and Assembly line will amount 1.5-2 Billion USD* depending on whether Rafale or EF is chosen
Initial reports by NDTV , Aaj Tak have suggested that there is a gap of 2 Billion USD between the cost of just the aircrafts excluding cost of TOT and Weapons
While* final decision will be taken after including Life cycle cost and the quality of Technology being transfered as well as quality of offsets *

Former Airforce chief PV Naik has suggested that if the gap of 2 Billion USD stays even after taking into account Lifecycle cost , then MOD should buy 18 More jets preferably in flyaway conditions from the lowest bidder, which would boast IAF strength , instead of signing the deal for 18 Billion USD instead of 20 Billion USD , since MOD and FM have given in principle approval for spending 20 Billion USD , this decision was taken after opening the bid of EF

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## jha

So, each of these cost $20 Bil./126= $ 158.73 Mil. ... Wonder if its still worth it..
Better to concentrate on LCA-2,3 ,AMCA and MKIs....This will be another scandal in CAG's report...


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## Imran Khan

WHITESMOKE said:


> Imran Bhai, agar aisa ho gya to India ko thank you jarur bolna.. or 100 kyon 150 to kar hi lo.. rate thoda or kam kra lena..


bhi hum to india thanks rozana bolty hai .jesy ajj bola THANKS INDIA for not open bid of MMRCA

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## SpArK

jha said:


> So, each of these cost $20 Bil./126= $ 158.73 Mil. ... Wonder if its still worth it..
> Better to concentrate on LCA-2,3 ,AMCA and MKIs....This will be another scandal in CAG's report...



Too late buddy.

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## karan.1970

Archie said:


> As per New channels
> MOD will announce the lowest bidder by December
> MOD has also confirmed that the finalized* deal would be for 20 Billion USD and Not 11-12 Billion* as Previously thought , coz that price was set in 2007 and first aircraft will be delivered in 2014
> 
> Though NDTV just reported that *Weapons package for mmrca will cost about 3-4 Billion USD* depending on the number of AAM and A2G armament ordered and will be included in the 20 Billion USD agreement.
> Also cost of *Mentainence infrastructure and Assembly line will amount 1.5-2 Billion USD* depending on whether Rafale or EF is chosen
> Initial reports by NDTV , Aaj Tak have suggested that there is a gap of 2 Billion USD between the cost of just the aircrafts excluding cost of TOT and Weapons
> While* final decision will be taken after including Life cycle cost and the quality of Technology being transfered as well as quality of offsets *
> 
> Former Airforce chief PV Naik has suggested that if the gap of 2 Billion USD stays even after taking into account Lifecycle cost , then MOD should buy 18 More jets preferably in flyaway conditions from the lowest bidder, which would boast IAF strength , instead of signing the deal for 18 Billion USD instead of 20 Billion USD , since MOD and FM have given in principle approval for spending 20 Billion USD , this decision was taken after opening the bid of EF



Link please..


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## Imran Khan

kaykay said:


> hehe koi nhi...aap rafale rakh lo aur hume typhoon jaldi se dilwa do.....waise idea bura nahi hai if paf goes for rafale then typhoon will be announced wiinner within one hour....kidding



we are not in hurry our line of thunders is working day night and we want more and more late MMRCA 

---------- Post added at 08:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:12 PM ----------




Archie said:


> As per New channels
> MOD will announce the lowest bidder by December
> MOD has also confirmed that the finalized* deal would be for 20 Billion USD and Not 11-12 Billion* as Previously thought , coz that price was set in 2007 and first aircraft will be delivered in 2014
> 
> Though NDTV just reported that *Weapons package for mmrca will cost about 3-4 Billion USD* depending on the number of AAM and A2G armament ordered and will be included in the 20 Billion USD agreement.
> Also cost of *Mentainence infrastructure and Assembly line will amount 1.5-2 Billion USD* depending on whether Rafale or EF is chosen
> Initial reports by NDTV , Aaj Tak have suggested that there is a gap of 2 Billion USD between the cost of just the aircrafts excluding cost of TOT and Weapons
> While* final decision will be taken after including Life cycle cost and the quality of Technology being transfered as well as quality of offsets *
> 
> Former Airforce chief PV Naik has suggested that if the gap of 2 Billion USD stays even after taking into account Lifecycle cost , then MOD should buy 18 More jets preferably in flyaway conditions from the lowest bidder, which would boast IAF strength , instead of signing the deal for 18 Billion USD instead of 20 Billion USD , since MOD and FM have given in principle approval for spending 20 Billion USD , this decision was taken after opening the bid of EF



they never said abut dec2011 thay just said dec may be its 2015


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## kaykay

if deal will rise upto 20 billion dollars then i am damn sure babus are planning for a big loot-pat.......Anna ko bulao...ramdev where are you?


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## karan.1970

kaykay said:


> if deal will rise upto 20 billion dollars then i am damn sure babus are planning for a big loot-pat.......Anna ko bulao...ramdev where are you?



20 billion mein to 400 F 16 block 60 aa jaate


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## Imran Khan

kaykay said:


> if deal will rise upto 20 billion dollars then i am damn sure babus are planning for a big loot-pat.......Anna ko bulao...ramdev where are you?



you can't call them daily dear ahahahh if aana movement done it then it was signed since 3 months


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## Paan Singh

india is going for near 200 fighters,means 100 million a piece


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## kaykay

karan.1970 said:


> 20 billion mein to 400 F 16 block 60 aa jaate


and 200 fgfa in future


----------



## jha

SpArK said:


> Too late buddy.



Its never too late..Fin. Min. is always there ...20 Bill. is too much to spend ..


----------



## Whazzup

Imran Khan is a silent killer of threads first he cracks some light jokes and after taking a little inspiration from him rest of the trolls join in.

---------- Post added at 10:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:19 PM ----------




jha said:


> So, each of these cost $20 Bil./126= $ 158.73 Mil. ... Wonder if its still worth it..
> Better to concentrate on LCA-2,3 ,AMCA and MKIs....This will be another scandal in CAG's report...



This deal includes many things with planes for sure like Weapon package ,spares etc So I don't think its a bad move at all. BTW Rafale is going to win

---------- Post added at 10:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:21 PM ----------

Guys visit this thread for a fair comparison b/t the two planes (although I know we have seen many threads on this)

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-...-last-two-mmrca-contenders-7.html#post2253386

RAFALE RAFALE RAFALE


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## Imran Khan

jackhammer2 said:


> Imran Khan is a silent killer of threads first he cracks some light jokes and after taking a little inspiration from him rest of the trolls join in.




man you insult senior citizen ? ok let me go court for this .lolz

MMRCA is the topic and i never kill a rat till today so how can i kill thread

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## Paan Singh

An Indian contract to buy 126 fighter jets from one of two European bidders could be worth more than $20bn, almost double the original estimate, according to government officials.

The defence ministry revised up its initial $11bn estimate after opening bids on Friday from the Eurofighter Typhoon consortium and France&#8217;s Dassault, the maker of the Rafale aircraft, a ministry official told the Financial Times.

Identifying the lowest bidder is likely to take up to eight weeks, the ministry said. Thereafter, the proposal would go to the finance ministry for review. The government will choose a lead bidder with whom it will then start negotiating a final price.

&#8220;Various parameters will be studied to arrive at the lowest bidder,&#8221; the ministry official said. &#8220;The most important parameter remains the life-cycle cost which is an individual criteria that is added to the total cost.&#8221;

When the tender to modernise India&#8217;s air force, one of the biggest military aviation orders by a single country, was launched more than four years ago, it was estimated at $11bn.

In April, India shortlisted Eurofighter and Rafale after eliminating Boeing&#8217;s F/A-18, Lockheed Martin&#8217;s F-16, Russia&#8217;s MiG-35 and Swedish Saab&#8217;s Gripen.

The defence official said adjustments were being made to the previous estimates of $11bn for the contract as it was based on 2007 figures and needed to reflect current prices.

*&#8220;I suspect there hasn&#8217;t been a firm handle on the unit costs for quite a while,&#8221; said John Louth, a former RAF officer and deputy head of the Defence Industries and Society programme at the Royal United Services Institute.
*
*Mr Louth said that the higher prices do not necessarily mean a jump in profit for the makers of whichever fighter is chosen. &#8220;If India is paying $20bn for just the physical aeroplanes, then that&#8217;s a fantastic deal [for Eurofighter or Dassault], but that&#8217;s not the reality.* *Much of this increase will be clawed back by the government through the support contracts to maintain the aircraft. There&#8217;s only so much money that exchequers can afford.&#8221;
*
The decision to choose one of the European aircraft has not prevented the US from making a last-ditch effort to sell advanced fighters to India. The Pentagon this week told the US Congress that it was prepared to provide information to India about the F-35 Lightning II, a fifth-generation fighter aircraft produced by Lockheed Martin.

European defence companies have expressed concern that the US might try to short-circuit the bidding process with a new, more attractive offer outside of the terms of the competition.

But Indian defence analysts say that the process to choose the multi-role combat aircraft is too far advanced for a U-turn. A sudden departure from the process would dent credibility, they say, at a time when the conduct of India&#8217;s bureaucracy is under greater public scrutiny after a number of high profile corruption scandals.


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## Paan Singh

An Indian contract to buy 126 fighter jets from one of two European bidders could be worth more than $20bn, almost double the original estimate, according to government officials.

The defence ministry revised up its initial $11bn estimate after opening bids on Friday from the Eurofighter Typhoon consortium and France&#8217;s Dassault, the maker of the Rafale aircraft, a ministry official told the Financial Times.

Identifying the lowest bidder is likely to take up to eight weeks, the ministry said. Thereafter, the proposal would go to the finance ministry for review. The government will choose a lead bidder with whom it will then start negotiating a final price.

&#8220;Various parameters will be studied to arrive at the lowest bidder,&#8221; the ministry official said. &#8220;The most important parameter remains the life-cycle cost which is an individual criteria that is added to the total cost.&#8221;

When the tender to modernise India&#8217;s air force, one of the biggest military aviation orders by a single country, was launched more than four years ago, it was estimated at $11bn.

In April, India shortlisted Eurofighter and Rafale after eliminating Boeing&#8217;s F/A-18, Lockheed Martin&#8217;s F-16, Russia&#8217;s MiG-35 and Swedish Saab&#8217;s Gripen.

The defence official said adjustments were being made to the previous estimates of $11bn for the contract as it was based on 2007 figures and needed to reflect current prices.

*&#8220;I suspect there hasn&#8217;t been a firm handle on the unit costs for quite a while,&#8221; said John Louth, a former RAF officer and deputy head of the Defence Industries and Society programme at the Royal United Services Institute.
*
*Mr Louth said that the higher prices do not necessarily mean a jump in profit for the makers of whichever fighter is chosen. &#8220;If India is paying $20bn for just the physical aeroplanes, then that&#8217;s a fantastic deal [for Eurofighter or Dassault], but that&#8217;s not the reality.* *Much of this increase will be clawed back by the government through the support contracts to maintain the aircraft. There&#8217;s only so much money that exchequers can afford.&#8221;
*
The decision to choose one of the European aircraft has not prevented the US from making a last-ditch effort to sell advanced fighters to India. The Pentagon this week told the US Congress that it was prepared to provide information to India about the F-35 Lightning II, a fifth-generation fighter aircraft produced by Lockheed Martin.

European defence companies have expressed concern that the US might try to short-circuit the bidding process with a new, more attractive offer outside of the terms of the competition.

But Indian defence analysts say that the process to choose the multi-role combat aircraft is too far advanced for a U-turn. A sudden departure from the process would dent credibility, they say, at a time when the conduct of India&#8217;s bureaucracy is under greater public scrutiny after a number of high profile corruption scandals.

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## majesticpankaj

I tell you--- Our babus will do a party in night with french and britishers along with their delegation  and will decide the fate


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## ptltejas

The title of this thread must be

The Frustration Thread.

Just Fort Night Guys. we shall get news and Gov will decide it. st. Antony is there.

Just cheeled All buddy.

well I like Hybrib plane body of euro fighter. engine euro fighter. spectra of rafale. screen touch display of typhoon. Aesa radar. voice control and system that not permit pilot maneuvers beyond limit typhoon. ground fight capability rafale. Hybrid or mixture of good of both will be best :thumb:


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## Kadamba

*India reviews bids in $11 billion fighter jet deal
*
NEW DELHI: India's Defense Ministry has begun reviewing competing bids from Eurofighter and Dassault for the purchase of 126 multi-role combat aircraft worth about $11 billion. 

Ministry spokesman Sitanshu Kar said officials met with representatives of the European competitors on Friday and are _*expected to take six to eight weeks to pick the winning bidder.*_  Eurofighter is offering its Typhoon aircraft while Dassault's bid is for its Rafale. 

Planes from Boeing Co. and Lockheed Martin of the United States and from Russian and Swedish makers were earlier disqualified on technical and operational grounds. 

India, the world's biggest arms importer, is being wooed by major international arms manufacturers as it replaces its obsolete Soviet-era weapons. 

Eighteen fighter aircraft are to be delivered in ``fly away'' condition within 36 months and the remaining 108 are to be built by state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. through technology transfers. 

*The deal is expected to be signed before the end of India's current financial year in March. * 

*The ministry's price negotiating committee will now determine the cost of the planes, their on-board weaponry, technology transfers, warranty for the first 24 months and royalties for their licensed manufacture by Hindustan Aeronautics, said Rahul Bedi, a New Delhi-based analyst for the independent Jane's Information Group. *

*Bedi said the actual number of fighters is expected to rise above 200  as the air force desperately seeks to augment its rapidly shrinking fighter squadrons as Soviet and Russian planes reach obsolescence.*

India reviews bids in $11 billion fighter jet deal - The Economic Times 

May god give Anthony Sahab the power to handle the babus/politicians properly so as to ensure no scam takes place this time.

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## Doctor09

oye bhai logo agar rafale nai mil raha tu tab tak hamara thunder ura kar shoq pura kar lu ........
i wish your MOD reject rafale so that France will come back to Pakistan and give us some good deals


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## Imran Khan

expected to take six to eight weeks to pick the winning bidder. 

ok see you again after 3 months dear


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## ptltejas

*-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) were opened here on Friday by the Defence Ministry in the presence of the representatives of two contenders including Rafale (France) and Eurofighter (consortium of UK, Germany, Spain and Italy). 

However, the lowest bidder amongst the two will emerge after six to eight weeks after the Contract Negotiation Committee(CNC) of the Defence Ministry comprising officials of directorate of acquisition, IAF and defence finance scrutinises the price quoted by the competitors. 

The contract is likely to fructify before the end of the current financial year after intense negotiations and clearance by the finance ministry and Cabinet Committee on Security(CCS) headed by the prime minister. 

The basic unit price and some other broad details quoted by the two competitors were announced in the presence of the two contenders, sources said adding life cycle cost will be a major consideration in determining the winner. The life cycle cost, factored into a defence contract in India for the first time, includes the performance of the aircraft over a span of more than 40 years and nearly 8,000 hours of flying.

Defence ministry spokesman Sitanshu Kar said commercial bids were opened by the CNC. The defence ministry will now examine and evaluate the bids to arrive at the lowest bidder, he said. 
Kar, however, refrained from disclosing the unit price and said confidentiality clause is applicable to all the stake holders in the proposed deal including the bureaucrats, vendors and IAF officers.

Explaining the time taken for announcing the lowest bidder, they said the defence ministry will go through more than 1,000 documents submitted by both the bidders. These documents will cover the price of all items ranging from engine to spare parts, avionics and weaponry and a thorough study is needed before taking a decision, sources said


The government has set a bench mark figure for the contract but the vendors were not informed about it on Friday, sources said adding the initial contract price was set at Rs. 42,000 crore in 2007. Given inflation and other factors, the proposed deal has already touched Rs. 48,000 crore plus mark and the government can provide more money if need be, they said.


dailypioneer.com/nation/18039-ministry-opens-bids-for-combat-aircraft-deal.html*


----------



## Paan Singh

ptltejas said:


> *-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) were opened here on Friday by the Defence Ministry in the presence of the representatives of two contenders including Rafale (France) and Eurofighter (consortium of UK, Germany, Spain and Italy).
> 
> However, the lowest bidder amongst the two will emerge after six to eight weeks after the Contract Negotiation Committee(CNC) of the Defence Ministry comprising officials of directorate of acquisition, IAF and defence finance scrutinises the price quoted by the competitors.
> 
> The contract is likely to fructify before the end of the current financial year after intense negotiations and clearance by the finance ministry and Cabinet Committee on Security(CCS) headed by the prime minister.
> 
> The basic unit price and some other broad details quoted by the two competitors were announced in the presence of the two contenders, sources said adding life cycle cost will be a major consideration in determining the winner. The life cycle cost, factored into a defence contract in India for the first time, includes the performance of the aircraft over a span of more than 40 years and nearly 8,000 hours of flying.
> 
> Defence ministry spokesman Sitanshu Kar said commercial bids were opened by the CNC. The defence ministry will now examine and evaluate the bids to arrive at the lowest bidder, he said.
> 
> Kar, however, refrained from disclosing the unit price and said confidentiality clause is applicable to all the stake holders in the proposed deal including the bureaucrats, vendors and IAF officers.
> 
> Explaining the time taken for announcing the lowest bidder, they said the defence ministry will go through more than 1,000 documents submitted by both the bidders. These documents will cover the price of all items ranging from engine to spare parts, avionics and weaponry and a thorough study is needed before taking a decision, sources said
> 
> The government has set a bench mark figure for the contract but the vendors were not informed about it on Friday, sources said adding the initial contract price was set at Rs. 42,000 crore in 2007. Given inflation and other factors, the proposed deal has already touched Rs. 48,000 crore plus mark and the government can provide more money if need be, they said.
> 
> 
> dailypioneer.com/nation/18039-ministry-opens-bids-for-combat-aircraft-deal.html*




hitwall:
you raped my eyes


----------



## Imran Khan

doctor09 said:


> oye bhai logo agar rafale nai mil raha tu tab tak hamara thunder ura kar shoq pura kar lu ........
> i wish your MOD reject rafale so that France will come back to Pakistan and give us some good deals



tum yaar doctor ho phir bhi zakhmoo per namak lagaty ho?

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## ptltejas

Prism said:


> hitwall:
> you raped my eyes


 
come on man mistake of mathine. 

Lagta he neend udadi MOD ne .....


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## Doctor09

Imran Khan said:


> tum yaar doctor ho phir bhi zakhmoo per namak lagaty ho?


abi ishaq k imtehan r b hain Imran bhai yeah tu ibtada hai .......

Imran bhai is baat ka matlab kiya hai :The defence ministry will now examine and evaluate the bids to arrive at the lowest bidder
i think sasta jahaz lainay ka irada hai inka ... what you think which cheapest aircraft will be best for them ?

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## Storm Force

DOCTOR LOL

Yeah rafale at $90m each

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## Mughal-Prince

Arrrrggggggggg OObhai khuda kay liyaya kuch tau khareed lo yarr  Qasam say rula diya pata nahin kub say main esay parh raha hoon ... bari strong nerves hain jinhon nay bid kiya hai ...



Bhai yeh tau Aikta Kapoor kay dramay say bhi lumbi ho gai hai ... ab without ending khatum na ho jaiyaya ... warna main pagal ho jaoon ga

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## Vimana

I already told you guys Eurofighter will win why you need official confirmation is my word not good enough?


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## Imran Khan

doctor09 said:


> abi ishaq k imtehan r b hain Imran bhai yeah tu ibtada hai .......
> 
> Imran bhai is baat ka matlab kiya hai :The defence ministry will now examine and evaluate the bids to arrive at the lowest bidder
> i think sasta jahaz lainay ka irada hai inka ... what you think which cheapest aircraft will be best for them ?



o bhai they already decide it its now time waste for more kickbacks samjha ker yaar hathi ke dant khany ke or dikhany ke or

---------- Post added at 12:14 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:12 AM ----------




Storm Force said:


> DOCTOR LOL
> 
> Yeah rafale at $90m each



lol storm 

he quite what your mighty minister said

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## sancho

Aryan_B said:


> Indians seriously need to look at their procurement methods



Not necessarily, because MMRCA wasn't re issued like the LUH or tanker competitions because of issues with the planning, but because the priority of MoD/GoI changed! The older MRCA was aimed on a fighter for IAF that should be cheap, cost-effective and fast to induct, that's why they prefered the M2K-5, but MoD understood that this is a big chance not only for IAF to get new fighters, but also to get more industrial benefits! That's why MMRCA has nearly an equally high prioirty on industrial points, as on techinical points of the fighters. So they purposly took the risk of delays, higher costs and slower replacement of the Mig 21s, to get way more they would have got in the older competition too.
A difficult game, but totally worth it and the right decision imo at least!




angeldemon_007 said:


> I just don't get it....i mean the finalist 2 were selected in March-April then why the hell MOD waited till November just to open the bids ? Can anyone throw some lights on this ?



The trials took so long, that the comercial bids had to be renewed and the same will happen if there is no final decision this year, so that came in between, but please keep in mind that comparing these bids, the offsets, or the technical offers is highly complex and will need time. MoD/IAF so far showed a lot of professionalism like many reports from the vendors confirmed.




Vimana said:


> Rafale only has UAE and Brazil chance to win



UAE (no other competitior) 60 x fighters
Swiss (according the evaluation, the best fighter) 22 x fighters
Brazil (prefered by all governmeant officials, but too costly for them at the moment) 36 + 24 for the navy, + possibly up to 100 for the air force
Malaysia, Kuwait, Qatar...,

EF at the moment has only chances in Japan, Malaysia and Qatar, although reports say it was rejected in Japan (not official yet) and the chances in Qatar are very low, since they operate the Mirage 2000 too. It should be obvious which fighter has a brighter future in regard to exports.


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## sancho

angeldemon_007 said:


> MMRCA fighter commercial bids opened in presence of reps from @EADSgroup & #Dassault. Will take 6-8 weeks to detemine lowest bidder.
> 
> Source : Livefist



*10-27-2011 09:27 AM*



sancho said:


> They will open the bids on 4th nov, but won't decide the winner then. IAF hopes for a final decision by dec, media by early next year. We have no choice than wait and see.


----------



## perplexed

Imran Khan said:


> expected to take six to eight weeks to pick the winning bidder.
> 
> ok see you again after 3 months dear


 


princeiftikharmirza said:


> Arrrrggggggggg OObhai khuda kay liyaya kuch tau khareed lo yarr  Qasam say rula diya pata nahin kub say main esay parh raha hoon ... bari strong nerves hain jinhon nay bid kiya hai ...
> 
> 
> 
> Bhai yeh tau Aikta Kapoor kay dramay say bhi lumbi ho gai hai ... ab without ending khatum na ho jaiyaya ... warna main pagal ho jaoon ga



all the responsible parties viz. France, Eurofighter Consortium and Goi knows what's the result! Tum logon ko pata nahin toh kuchbhi bak bak karoge kya ? 

And it is not as if some 10-30 planes are being purchased like pakistan... this is a massive purchase with a potential 189 aircrafts... so it's is complex. GoI needs to clear things up before deciding which price quote is really lower !!

eg. Lets say Eurofighter quotes like $100mn per piece with weapons and rafale like $90mn per piece. If the latter one presses for 
extra costs for mid life upgrades of some specific components or some future structural changes (minor) won't be covered then it would be insensible to think rafale quoted lower !

Now I am interpreting the above situation like a layman here and I am sure there are more complex issues. Both have marketed their product on some avionics and radar upgrades which are inexistent till now. Now if the entire set of upgrades( all future ) of those products are covered in the cost or how many upgrades will their quote actually cover ? Don't u think it's good to clear these issues before estimating which one is *really low* ?

Also, most members here acting like a bunch of school kids who desperately want to know what will happen in the next cartoon episode. I can only say that the reason for this anxiety is the sheer no of thread opened regarding it but we should realize that only the RFI was sent in 2004/05 which cannot be counted as the starting epoch for this process coz the manufacturers were given time to finalize their product. And from 2005-08 many manufacturers did made several changes in the proposed product they are offering. LOL. France changed their entire product when some upgraded version of mirage was summarily rejected. 

We should consider the time line from the time when the manufacturers have actually frozen their product design. And after that (2008 ) within 6 months IAF started the evaluation process which was completed in two years. And again took couple of months to submit the report. Now even if it now takes 2 months for the closure, it will like
6 months of delay initially + 2 years of eval + 6 months for report + 3 months for closure. Now do the math and cry me a fcuking river.

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## Imran Khan

another angry hardcore fan of MMRCA demonstrating on defence.pk


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## IndoCarib

Europe versus France contest begins for world's biggest combat aircraft deal - The Times of India

India fighter jet deal soars to $20bn - FT.com


----------



## TOPGUN

Oh lord comone with it already we all want to know why so much time ....


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## Imran Khan

IndoCarib said:


> Europe versus France contest begins for world's biggest combat aircraft deal - The Times of India
> 
> India fighter jet deal soars to $20bn - FT.com



BTW its not world biggest fighter deal but saudi 60bn$ deal of f-15 sielent eagle deal 


Us Prepares To Approve $60bn Arms Deal With Saudi Arabia
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/sep/1...al-saudi-arabia


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## IndoCarib

Imran Khan said:


> BTW its not world biggest fighter deal but saudi 60bn$ deal of f-15 sielent eagle deal
> 
> 
> Us Prepares To Approve $60bn Arms Deal With Saudi Arabia
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/sep/1...al-saudi-arabia



As of now it is the world's biggest aircraft deal. Your link is invalid


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## Imran Khan

IndoCarib said:


> As of now it is the world's biggest aircraft deal. Your link is invalid


hahahahaahahh

i know bachy you know abut that deal only diffrence is they have no inter wariorrs like you guys 

deal expanded to 90bn$ happy now 

*Saudi to raise US arms deal to $ 90bn*
Saudi Arabia plans to raise its arms purchases from the United States to $ 90bn from the $ 60bn announced last year, as the kingdom seeks to upgrade it navy, diplomats in the Gulf said this week. Last year, US officials said Riyadh planned to buy $ 60bn worth of military aircraft, including upgrades to existing fleets. Saudi Arabia is boosting its defences as it faces off with Iran for influence in the Gulf Arab region. Saudi forces helped Bahrain put down a pro-democracy protest movement this year, fearing that Iran was backing the Shia-led opposition. They also clashed over a year ago with Shia rebels in Yemen, where protesters are seeking the removal of veteran ruler Ali Abdullah Saleh, a Saudi ally. &#8220;There is a plan for Saudi to spend an extra $ 30bn to upgrade its navy fleet,&#8221; said a Western diplomat in the Gulf. &#8220;This extra amount also includes maintenance and training for the forces,&#8221; another Gulf-based diplomat said. A Saudi government adviser said he expected the deal to upgrade the navy fleet would be completed soon. &#8220;The chances this deal won&#8217;t be finalised are very remote. The money will basically be used to update the eastern fleet,&#8221; he said, adding the upgrade was part of a separate programme to the $ 60bn plan announced last year. US officials said last year the $ 60bn programme would be complete in 15 to 20 years. It was not clear over how many years the $ 30bn addition would last. Saudi Arabia has been alarmed by the protest movements that removed allies such as Hosni Mubarak in Egypt. 
Saudi to raise US arms deal to $ 90bn | MSN Arabia Business


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## Super Falcon

well seems like IAF neeeds another 6 years to decide which fighter jet they want and than other 6 and this will never stops


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## IndoCarib

Imran Khan said:


> hahahahaahahh
> 
> i know bachy you know abut that deal only diffrence is they have no inter wariorrs like you guys
> 
> deal expanded to 90bn$ happy now
> 
> *Saudi to raise US arms deal to $ 90bn*
> Saudi Arabia plans to raise its arms purchases from the United States to $ 90bn from the $ 60bn announced last year, as the kingdom seeks to upgrade it navy, diplomats in the Gulf said this week. Last year, US officials said Riyadh planned to buy $ 60bn worth of military aircraft, including upgrades to existing fleets. Saudi Arabia is boosting its defences as it faces off with Iran for influence in the Gulf Arab region. Saudi forces helped Bahrain put down a pro-democracy protest movement this year, fearing that Iran was backing the Shia-led opposition. They also clashed over a year ago with Shia rebels in Yemen, where protesters are seeking the removal of veteran ruler Ali Abdullah Saleh, a Saudi ally. &#8220;There is a plan for Saudi to spend an extra $ 30bn to upgrade its navy fleet,&#8221; said a Western diplomat in the Gulf. &#8220;This extra amount also includes maintenance and training for the forces,&#8221; another Gulf-based diplomat said. A Saudi government adviser said he expected the deal to upgrade the navy fleet would be completed soon. &#8220;The chances this deal won&#8217;t be finalised are very remote. The money will basically be used to update the eastern fleet,&#8221; he said, adding the upgrade was part of a separate programme to the $ 60bn plan announced last year. US officials said last year the $ 60bn programme would be complete in 15 to 20 years. It was not clear over how many years the $ 30bn addition would last. Saudi Arabia has been alarmed by the protest movements that removed allies such as Hosni Mubarak in Egypt.
> Saudi to raise US arms deal to $ 90bn | MSN Arabia Business



As i said 'as of now it is the world's biggest aircraft deal. Saudi deal will happen after India's deal


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## Imran Khan

Super Falcon said:


> well seems like IAF neeeds another 6 years to decide which fighter jet they want and than other 6 and this will never stops



please yaar read posts before you comment they are hell angry many bash on me even i am most favorite in indian members


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## Ammyy

Imran Khan said:


> hahahahaahahh
> 
> i know bachy you know abut that deal only diffrence is they have no inter wariorrs like you guys
> 
> deal expanded to 90bn$ happy now
> 
> *Saudi to raise US arms deal to $ 90bn*
> Saudi Arabia plans to raise its arms purchases from the United States to $ 90bn from the $ 60bn announced last year, as the kingdom seeks to upgrade it navy, diplomats in the Gulf said this week. Last year, US officials said Riyadh planned to buy $ 60bn worth of military aircraft, including upgrades to existing fleets. Saudi Arabia is boosting its defences as it faces off with Iran for influence in the Gulf Arab region. Saudi forces helped Bahrain put down a pro-democracy protest movement this year, fearing that Iran was backing the Shia-led opposition. They also clashed over a year ago with Shia rebels in Yemen, where protesters are seeking the removal of veteran ruler Ali Abdullah Saleh, a Saudi ally. There is a plan for Saudi to spend an extra $ 30bn to upgrade its navy fleet, said a Western diplomat in the Gulf. This extra amount also includes maintenance and training for the forces, another Gulf-based diplomat said. A Saudi government adviser said he expected the deal to upgrade the navy fleet would be completed soon. The chances this deal wont be finalised are very remote. The money will basically be used to update the eastern fleet, he said, adding the upgrade was part of a separate programme to the $ 60bn plan announced last year. *US officials said last year the $ 60bn programme would be complete in 15 to 20 years.* It was not clear over how many years the $ 30bn addition would last. Saudi Arabia has been alarmed by the protest movements that removed allies such as Hosni Mubarak in Egypt.
> Saudi to raise US arms deal to $ 90bn | MSN Arabia Business


 
 What stupid post 


We are talking about a single deal not about next 20 year plan


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## Imran Khan

IndoCarib said:


> As i said 'as of now it is the world's biggest aircraft deal. Saudi deal will happen after India's deal



and i told you they have no internet proud warriors they just look and buy it they no need show time for a deal .you know why ? 90bn$ they can earn in hujj one year

---------- Post added at 03:05 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:04 AM ----------




DRDO said:


> What stupid post
> 
> 
> We are talking about a single deal not about next 20 year plan




ohhh another angry senior member just landed now and start bashing me as i am the one who fail to open bid

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## Super Falcon

wellllll indian sasta hi jhaz lenge mere khayal se kyonka jaiba bhi tu bharni han na bacha hue peso se hahahahahahha kher wesa pesa lagta ha asa hi chala jaenga 6 saloooo se yeh jahz check kar rahy han agar inho na jhaz la bhi lia tu imran bhai app ko kia lagta ha kitna saaal lagenga inko udana ma yeh jhaz mere hisab se 12 saal udana ma aur poori tara ladaka jhaz banana man 24 saal lag jaenga

---------- Post added at 06:09 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:07 AM ----------

hahahahahahhahaha indians ki tu khili udd gaye ajj ka bid ka baad bhi kuch nahe pata ka kon jeeta aur kon hara


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## Imran Khan

Super Falcon said:


> wellllll indian sasta hi jhaz lenge mere khayal se kyonka jaiba bhi tu bharni han na bacha hue peso se hahahahahahha kher wesa pesa lagta ha asa hi chala jaenga 6 saloooo se yeh jahz check kar rahy han agar inho na jhaz la bhi lia tu imran bhai app ko kia lagta ha kitna saaal lagenga inko udana ma yeh jhaz mere hisab se 12 saal udana ma aur poori tara ladaka jhaz banana man 24 saal lag jaenga




nhi nhi once deal will sign UP home minister mayawati will send highly trained worker which are under training here with me they will take blue prints from whatever and start jugaaro work on it .we expect they will roll out first jet within 13 days

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## Super Falcon

hahahahahahaha khillllli uddd gaye indian MRCA ki hahhahahahaha


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## Ammyy

Imran Khan said:


> ohhh another angry senior member just landed now and start bashing me as i am the one who fail to open bid



India is not in hurry for MMRCA cause neither Pakistan nor China can counter MKI till now (ohh some fan boy still living with AESA upgraded copy of Russian planes )


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## Super Falcon

in 6 saloo man saudi arabia na EF ka order bhi diya aur delivery bhi li par indians ko abhi tak yeh nahe pata ka leena kia hai apni di hue dates pa bhi yeh bhool jaty han ka ajj hameen karna kia ha


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## IndoCarib

I dont know why this thread attracts pakistanis like a moth to a flame.

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## Imran Khan

Super Falcon said:


> hahahahahahaha khillllli uddd gaye indian MRCA ki hahhahahahaha



dekho bhi hum ghusa hoy? most of them insult me in this thread . many which i call them brother they insult me but i still have smile on my face .i don't know why they love these killing machines . jet burn for rusting but real thing is human friendship love nice time between us and peace for me .

---------- Post added at 03:16 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:15 AM ----------




IndoCarib said:


> I dont know why this thread attracts pakistanis like a moth to a flame.




nothing vajpayee jee we just pass our time as we have 5 eid vacations . we have no right to post here?


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## IndoCarib

Imran Khan said:


> dekho bhi hum ghusa hoy? most of them insult me in this thread . many which i call them brother they insult me but i still have smile on my face .i don't know why they love these killing machines . jet burn for rusting but real thing is human friendship love nice time between us and peace for me .
> 
> ---------- Post added at 03:16 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:15 AM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nothing vajpayee jee we just pass our time as we have 5 eid vacations . we have no right to post here?



Shaulk se! Lekin jalo math


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## Super Falcon

ohhhh MKI is not invincible in exercise with USA USA fighter jets keep killing your heavy jet like ***** cat BVR se tu koi bacha bhi fighter jet ko target kar sakta ha dog fight ma pusssy cat ki tarah bhageega apka MKI china ki copy russsia se compare tab karenga jab yeh aik doosra ko milenga war man india ki har cheez aslio doosro ki copy sir copy kam as kam kam tu karti ha na apna balbuta pa apka arjun aur doosra fighter jet ki tarah tu nahe ha jissa app 100 percent indian made khata ha jisma french na apki madad ki ha radars aur engines russia aur france se aye han

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## Imran Khan

Super Falcon said:


> in 6 saloo man saudi arabia na EF ka order bhi diya aur delivery bhi li par indians ko abhi tak yeh nahe pata ka leena kia hai apni di hue dates pa bhi yeh bhool jaty han ka ajj hameen karna kia ha



72 delivered and more 72 are in negotiations with them . saudi have no such system like india yaar they are kingdom just one meeting and next day sign . same happen to 177 F-15 they got and more ordered .

---------- Post added at 03:20 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:19 AM ----------




IndoCarib said:


> Shaulk se! Lekin jalo math



???????shaulk se? or kon jal raha hai ?

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## Super Falcon

saudia tu india se bhi teez nikla par indians ko pata nahe kia chaheya samjh se bhar ha in 6 saloo man 22 hazar jet bane lakin india ki aik awaz nahe aye ka bid kon jeeta apna diya hua time bhi jo tha unho na nahe bataya ka kon jeeta well ab lagta ha jald hi dono jets ki factory khaengi 6 saloo ma hamara anee jana ka itna kharcha hua ha jitna ka tum logo na jet bhi nahe lana jaan chodo humeen jet nahe bechna

---------- Post added at 06:23 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:21 AM ----------

yes kam as kam aik meeting ma unko pata chal jata ha ka acha kia hai aur bura kia ha par lagta ha EADS aur dassault wala bhi tang agaye honga indian MRCA se aur jinko inho ne reject kia ha woh shukar kar rahe honga ka ALLAH na hamari jaan chudai in logo se warna jhazoo se ziyada tu yeh hamari companies ko bhi kha jaty


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## IndoCarib

Imran Khan said:


> 72 delivered and more 72 are in negotiations with them . saudi have no such system like india yaar they are kingdom just one meeting and next day sign . same happen to 177 F-15 they got and more ordered .
> 
> ---------- Post added at 03:20 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:19 AM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> ???????shaulk se? or kon jal raha hai ?



Aap sab log ! Khas kar ke super falcon sahab ! Kuch jyada hi jal rahe hai ! Khud jal na jaye !


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## Super Falcon

jalta kon ha bus app indians ki jop khaty ha IAF is best and professional inka professionalism ki khilli uddd gaye hhahahahha

KHILLLLLLLLLLI UDDDDD Gayeeeeeeeeeeeeee





yaaaar im having best time of my life

---------- Post added at 06:27 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:25 AM ----------

han vajpayeee jeeee hum loog khuch jiyada hi jaaaaal rahy ha lakin itna yakeen se khaonga vajpayee sir jee most respected to me you are app logo se hum kuch kam hi jaaaal rahy han hahahhahahaah hum jalna ka sath sath khillli bhi uda rahy han kuch jiyada hi yaaaar naraz mat hue ga plz

---------- Post added at 06:28 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:27 AM ----------

doobra MRCA project IAF giri bijli banka bid par


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## Ammyy

Super Falcon said:


> jalta kon ha bus app indians ki jop khaty ha IAF is best and professional inka professionalism ki khilli uddd gaye hhahahahha
> 
> KHILLLLLLLLLLI UDDDDD Gayeeeeeeeeeeeeee
> 
> 
> 
> yaaaar im having best time of my life




Vo kya hai ki IAF balo ke kuch jyada hi nakhre hai vo IAF bale PAK balo ki tarah JF17 jese chote khilono se khush nahi hote


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## Imran Khan

IndoCarib said:


> Aap sab log ! Khas kar ke super falcon sahab ! Kuch jyada hi jal rahe hai ! Khud jal na jaye !



indocarib i think you guys are teens . if you are mature person you should look his flags he live in UAE where millions indian pakistanis live like brother friends co workers .and me lolz kid.we get heart attack after 270mki india got? you ride them and we look you from ground thats why we feel bad ? i don't think you will touch them even once hahahaha nor we will bombed by it daily .its itnernet mery bachy try to understand please we are here to post bla bla bla and sleep .you behave like a teen AP SAB JAL RAHY HO 

i never reply you or others like you you it why because we have different levels


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## Super Falcon

vajpayee je appp eman dari se batao ka aik mulk 2 salooo ma 72 jhaz ka order deta ha aur deliver bhi leta ha aur doosra mulk 6 saloo ma socho man ghoom ha aur jab time ata ha bid kholna ka tu kuch nahe pata tu khillli tu udagi na bhai mere ajj hamari bari hai khilllli udana ki kal apki bhi ayegi sir jee dont worrry ajj hum jalna doooo na plzz


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## Imran Khan

DRDO said:


> Vo kya hai ki IAF balo ke kuch jyada hi nakhre hai vo IAF bale PAK balo ki tarah JF17 jese chote khilono se khush nahi hote




another post DRDO in anger and more flame ahahahahhahahahahaha

i am here sir don't worry


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## IndoCarib

^^^^
Super falcon saab ! Aap apna khyal rakhiyega! Yeh MMRCA deal par apna sar karab math keejiye. Yeh hum logon ka kaam hai ! Teek hai jee ??


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## Emmie

DRDO said:


> Vo kya hai ki IAF balo ke kuch jyada hi nakhre hai vo IAF bale PAK balo ki tarah JF17 jese chote khilono se khush nahi hote



Acha phir Tajes see ho jate hein kush? 

Hum koi nae jal wal rahe... yeh tau khushi ke baat hay balkay ,India hamara parosi itne saal see MMRCA jo ker raha hay..

Kisi nay sahi kaha hay "doodh ka jala chachh bhi phonk phonk ker peta hay"


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## Super Falcon

mere bhai tu kia tejas bhot bada bada khilona hai kia dekhna ma tu hamara thunder bhi chota ha


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## satishkumarcsc

Eh! Did you guys forget english by chance?

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## Super Falcon

vajpayee jeee apka kam tu ap kar bhi tu nahe rahy ho na ajj friday ha tu bid kon jeeta kam kha ha apka


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## Imran Khan

satishkumarcsc said:


> Eh! Did you guys forget english by chance?


 
don't blame me for this ok i use pure 99.9% 24karats English

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## Imran Khan

chalo bhi bus kero ab over and all super falcon chalo yahaan se bhi .kery nhi kery bid open un ki hai hamara kya bus bhut ho gya ab sona bhi hai  hum kya chaachy maamy lagty hai deal ke?


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## Super Falcon

hahahahha han lakin yeh bhi tu hamari bhoot khilli karta ha ab hamari bari ha tu hum kyoon jana de imran bhai


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## Imran Khan

Super Falcon said:


> hahahahha han lakin yeh bhi tu hamari bhoot khilli karta ha ab hamari bari ha tu hum kyoon jana de imran bhai



bus na yaar ban karay ga kya ab is umer main humy ? kuch hamary sufaid baloon ka khayal ker yaar .abhi 3 months or hai bid open hony tak


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## Emmie

imran bhai app sahi keh rahe ho ab yahan see chaltay hein werna IAF fighter jet jiss ke aj bidding howe hay na woh yahan aker ke hamla bhi ker sakta hay..


All the best Indian friends, have fun with MRCA..

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## Imran Khan

Emmie said:


> imran bhai app sahi keh rahe ho ab yahan see chaltay hein werna IAF fighter jet jiss ke aj bidding howe hay na woh yahan aker ke hamla bhi ker sakta hay..



yes bro thats why i pack my bags from this greatest thread ever  otherwise in next forum election no one will vote for me

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## Super Falcon

hahahahhaha election dont worrry we are in majority hahahahha anyway goood luck to indian MRCA


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## angeldemon_007

*MMRCA Goes Up To 15 Billion Dollars As Bids Open Today!!*

I was told that this deal would go upto 18 billion $ when its inked. Well, today when the bids opened, it has been upped to 15 bn $. Wonder where all the extra billions are going. Vendors keeping fingers crossed!

Chindits: MMRCA Goes Up To 15 Billion Dollars As Bids Open Today!!


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## angeldemon_007

*MMRCA Goes Up To 15 Billion Dollars As Bids Open Today!!*

I was told that this deal would go upto 18 billion $ when its inked. Well, today when the bids opened, it has been upped to 15 bn $. Wonder where all the extra billions are going. Vendors keeping fingers crossed!

Chindits: MMRCA Goes Up To 15 Billion Dollars As Bids Open Today!!

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## Kaniska

Manas said:


> Frech bhassa amey Bujhi paruna , dayakari English re anubada kara !!



Tame odiya bhasa re lekhile ethi kie bujhiba...bhala laagila dekhiki...odiya lokanku..


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## Archie

NEW DELHI: Now, battle-lines for the Europe versus France contest, after elimination of US and Russia in earlier rounds, have been clearly drawn. I*ndia on Friday opened the financial bids of the two fighters* left in the fray for the world's biggest combat aircraft deal, *but promptly declared it would take at least two-three weeks to declare the eventual winner since tons of data had to be computed.*

For all its promises of "full transparency" in the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) contract to acquire 126 fighters, likely to be the single biggest defence deal in the run-up to the 2014 polls with its overall value set to exceed $20 billion, the defence ministry refused to say anything concrete.

*Sources, however, said the "unit flyaway cost" or "direct acquisition cost" of each Eurofighter Typhoon was "higher" than the French Rafale fighter*, both of which fall in the $80-$110 million bracket, much costlier than the American, Russian and Swedish jets earlier eliminated after exhaustive technical evaluation by IAF pilots.

But the unit flyaway cost will not be the only factor to determine the lowest bidder (L-1). *The MoD will also take into account "life-cycle costs" or the cost of operating the fighters over a 40-year period, with 6,000 hours of flying.*

Besides, there are costs of the transfer of technology (ToT) since the first 18 jets will be bought from abroad in a flyaway condition, while the rest 108 will be manufactured in India, under licence, by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd.

"The bids were opened today in front of the Indian contract negotiating committee, comprising MoD, IAF, finance, production and quality assurance officials, as well as representatives from French Dassault and EADS (backed by UK, Germany, Spain and Italy). It will take a few weeks to examine and evaluate their commercial proposals to arrive at a verifiable cost model to determine the L-1," said an official.

IAF wants the actual contract to be inked by January-February to ensure the delivery of first 18 jets begins by early-2015 to stem its fast-eroding combat edge, with HAL beginning the manufacturing of the rest 108 from early-2017 onwards. "The first jet built by HAL should roll out in early-2017," said an official.

India is also likely to go in for another 63 fighters after the first 126, if the timelines for the under-development Tejas LCA (light combat aircraft) and the stealth Indo-Russian FGFA (fifth-generation fighter aircraft) projects are not met. 

Europe versus France contest begins for world's biggest combat aircraft deal - The Times of India

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## Paan Singh

why cant they tell us whose bids were lowest??

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## The HBS Guy

Prism said:


> why cant they tell us whose bids were lowest??



The bids for typhoon are higher than that for rafale - Hindustan Times

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## Archie

Well looks like MOD has un intentionally declared that Rafale is cheaper than EF

_"Sources, however, said the "unit flyaway cost" or "direct acquisition cost" of each Eurofighter Typhoon was "higher" than the French Rafale fighter, both of which fall in the $80-$110 million bracket"_

So guys Now there is a 90% chance that Rafale will be announced as winner coz its cheaper , unless EF guys bring in something totally outstanding to the table

Looking at the price tag it seems that EF COST AROUND 110 Million USD while Rafale around 90 Million USD each

I think this report confirms the New report last night that there was a gap of 2 Billion USD between the fly away cost quoted by the 2 fighters , and now we know that fly away cost of 126 Rafales is cheaper by atleast 2 Billion USD as compared to EFT


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## Paan Singh

and india is going for 189 jets??i read somewhere that its confirmed


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## Paan Singh

| Video | IAF aircraft deal bids to be opened today | India Videos | - India Today


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## Zabaniyah

Jesus Christ people. Make up your minds!

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## Roybot

Zabanya said:


> Jesus Christ people. Make up your minds!



Its a big amount, and the deal is crucial for IAF's future, there is no reason to rush.

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## SpArK

> The lowest bidder is likely to be determined in six-eight weeks, after which contract negotiations will begin. The lowest bidder will be determined after considering life-cycle costs for both vendors.
> 
> &#8220;With the opening of bids, the process for selecting the lowest bidder has begun,&#8221; Kar said. He added that during the meeting, both vendors were notified about the other&#8217;s cost per unit. He, however, declined to comment on the figures, citing confidentiality clauses.
> 
> *Kar also declined to comment on where each vendor stood in relation to the benchmark price determined by the defence ministry. Benchmarking refers to the process by which the reasonable cost range of acquisition is determined. The defence ministry had completed this process in October.*
> 
> Officials said that after benchmarking, the final cost of acquisition could be significantly higher than the originally anticipated cost of Rs42,000 crore.
> 
> *A person with direct knowledge of the matter said that Dassault was &#8220;marginally lower&#8221; on the unit cost. Mint could not independently confirm this.*
> 
> Phone calls made to Dassault officials remained unanswered.
> 
> &#8220;Our offer for India&#8217;s medium multi-role combat aircraft tender is backed by the four Eurofighter partner nations, as well as their respective aerospace and defence industries. It is competitive and designed to deliver maximum value to India,&#8221; Cassidian, the defence and security subsidiary of EADS, said in a statement. &#8220;Our proposal to make India a full partner in the Eurofighter programme is fully supported by Germany, the UK, Spain and Italy.&#8221;






> Former foreign secretary Lalit Mansingh concurred. &#8220;I think the only message that is being sent out is that India has reached a stage where it can buy the best technology. India can choose quality and not go in for bargains. There is also the transfer of technology. I think India will choose the best technology and the vendor who allows for substantial manufacture of the aircraft in India under the transfer of technology clauses,&#8221; he said.



India opens bids for combat planes - Corporate News - livemint.com

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## SpArK

> The lowest bidder is likely to be determined in six-eight weeks, after which contract negotiations will begin. The lowest bidder will be determined after considering life-cycle costs for both vendors.
> 
> &#8220;With the opening of bids, the process for selecting the lowest bidder has begun,&#8221; Kar said. He added that during the meeting, both vendors were notified about the other&#8217;s cost per unit. He, however, declined to comment on the figures, citing confidentiality clauses.
> 
> *Kar also declined to comment on where each vendor stood in relation to the benchmark price determined by the defence ministry. Benchmarking refers to the process by which the reasonable cost range of acquisition is determined. The defence ministry had completed this process in October.*
> 
> Officials said that after benchmarking, the final cost of acquisition could be significantly higher than the originally anticipated cost of Rs42,000 crore.
> 
> *A person with direct knowledge of the matter said that Dassault was &#8220;marginally lower&#8221; on the unit cost. Mint could not independently confirm this.*
> 
> Phone calls made to Dassault officials remained unanswered.
> 
> &#8220;Our offer for India&#8217;s medium multi-role combat aircraft tender is backed by the four Eurofighter partner nations, as well as their respective aerospace and defence industries. It is competitive and designed to deliver maximum value to India,&#8221; Cassidian, the defence and security subsidiary of EADS, said in a statement. &#8220;Our proposal to make India a full partner in the Eurofighter programme is fully supported by Germany, the UK, Spain and Italy.&#8221;






> Former foreign secretary Lalit Mansingh concurred. &#8220;I think the only message that is being sent out is that India has reached a stage where it can buy the best technology. India can choose quality and not go in for bargains. There is also the transfer of technology. I think India will choose the best technology and the vendor who allows for substantial manufacture of the aircraft in India under the transfer of technology clauses,&#8221; he said.



India opens bids for combat planes - Corporate News - livemint.com


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## Vimana

@Sancho the Brazilian airforce wanted the Gripen not the Rafale it was their 1st choice but due to pressure + the the deal struck with France for help on their N sub they were compelled to go for Rafale. At the moment that tender is still up in the air and the F18 is back in the race the last I heard.



Like i said before nobody wants the Rafale when you can have the EF  it is 2nd best and always will be end of matter.


Also the Swiss can't even afford the rafale how they going to pay for EF? they cancelled the whole tender process and will start for new budget year


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## ptltejas

Prism said:


> why cant they tell us whose bids were lowest??


 

Defence ministry spokesman Sitanshu Kar said commercial bids were opened by the CNC. The defence ministry will now examine and evaluate the bids to arrive at the lowest bidder, he said. 
Kar, however, refrained from disclosing the unit price and said confidentiality clause is applicable to all the stake holders in the proposed deal including the bureaucrats, vendors and IAF officers.

Explaining the time taken for announcing the lowest bidder, they said the defence ministry will go through more than 1,000 documents submitted by both the bidders. These documents will cover the price of all items ranging from engine to spare parts, avionics and weaponry and a thorough study is needed before taking a decision, sources said


its from eye ra....e post by me.


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## Paan Singh

> Our offer for India&#8217;s medium multi-role combat aircraft tender is backed by the four Eurofighter partner nations,



i see it as blackmailing point and EADS commented after meeting but french remained silent.
so its gonna be rafale 100%%%


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## Paan Singh

i dont know when this baby will come out of stomach


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## SpArK

Prism said:


> i see it as blackmailing point and EADS commented after meeting but french remained silent.
> so its gonna be rafale 100%%%



Their loud mouthing has earlier caused loss of the engine deal.

Too much love can kill you.


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## Vimana

self delete


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## ptltejas

Prism said:


> i dont know when this baby will come out of stomach


 
8 mahine ho gaye koi 1 mahina rah dekhne ke liye tyiar nahi. bus sijerian karwana chahte he.


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## SpArK

Vimana said:


> @Sancho the Brazilian airforce wanted the Gripen not the Rafale it was their 1st choice but due to pressure + the the deal struck with France for help on their N sub they were compelled to go for Rafale. At the moment that tender is still up in the air and the F18 is back in the race the last I heard.
> 
> 
> 
> Like i said before nobody wants the Rafale when you can have the EF  it is 2nd best and always will be end of matter.
> 
> 
> Also the Swiss can't even afford the rafale how they going to pay for EF? they cancelled the whole tender process and will start for new budget year



Europe is going for F-35s and India should take EFT which has no future and with a high price tag?

Tranche 3 is in shackles unless they milk the money from India. On the other hand Rafale will serve France for a longer time and there is immense scope for it to transform into 5th GEN in future.

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## Kadamba

Bids open for fighter aircraft, likely to be a political call - Indian Express
------
Indias largest international defence contract to purchase a new fleet of fighter aircraft is heading for a political decision after commercial bids of the two final contenders  Dassaults Rafale and EADSs Eurofighter  were opened amidst high secrecy at the Defence Ministry on Friday evening.
-------
While the French *Rafale came out to be slightly cheaper than the European Consortiums Eurofighter in terms of fly away cost per unit, as expected, the difference was less than 5 per cent.* This throws the competition open.
-------
A final call on the winner will of course be made by the Cabinet Committee on Security, that will have the discretion of taking political, strategic and financial considerations into account.

That means technical and financial parameters are done with and have failed to decide the winner and only political one is left ? or It is also done as told by Subramanian swamy ?


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## Paan Singh

SpArK said:


> Europe is going for F-35s and India should take EFT which has no future and with a high price tag?
> 
> Tranche 3 is in shackles unless they milk the money from India. On the other hand Rafale will serve France for a longer time and there is immense scope for it to transform into 5th GEN in future.



bahut bada cheque mila hai aapko rafale sey


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## Paan Singh

Kadamba said:


> Bids open for fighter aircraft, likely to be a political call - Indian Express
> ------
> India&#8217;s largest international defence contract to purchase a new fleet of fighter aircraft is heading for a political decision after commercial bids of the two final contenders &#8212; Dassault&#8217;s Rafale and EADS&#8217;s Eurofighter &#8212; were opened amidst high secrecy at the Defence Ministry on Friday evening.
> -------
> While the French *Rafale came out to be slightly cheaper than the European Consortium&#8217;s Eurofighter in terms of &#8216;fly away cost&#8217; per unit, as expected, the difference was less than 5 per cent.* This throws the competition open.
> -------
> A final call on the winner will of course be made by the Cabinet Committee on Security, that will have the discretion of taking political, strategic and financial considerations into account.
> 
> That means technical and financial parameters are done with and have failed to decide the winner and only political one is left ? or It is also done as told by Subramanian swamy ?



if swamy is right then its gonna be rafale too..if not then again will be rafale


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## Vimana

SpArK said:


> Europe is going for F-35s and India should take EFT which has no future and with a high price tag?
> 
> Tranche 3 is in shackles unless they milk the money from India. On the other hand Rafale will serve France for a longer time and there is immense scope for it to transform into 5th GEN in future.





What do you mean by future? the 300th Eurofighter Typhoon was delivered to Italy just recent. How many Rafales does France have? 180 ordered, 93 delivered as of December 2010 so how can you say EF has no future? 


Let's not forget the Japan tender and the Saudis will order more in future.


Yes Europe its broke and needs funds but that only means they will be more despo to win and give more in terms of tech transfer, BAE have a partnership with Mahindra Defence Systems as it is and have setup a r&d hub in India as well.


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## ramu

If Rafale is not significantly cheaper than the Euro Fighter then India should go for the Euro Fighter. The Euro fighter brings with it the technology and expertise of many countries and between them it would be easier to get the best ToT. Also Euro Fighter (if you move beyond looks) is a much better fighter and for a layman is a better fighter by merely comparing the numbers.

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## SpArK

Vimana said:


> What do you mean by future? the 300th Eurofighter Typhoon was delivered to Italy just recent. How many Rafales does France have? 180 ordered, 93 delivered as of December 2010 so how can you say EF has no future?
> 
> 
> Let's not forget the Japan tender and the Saudis will order more in future.
> 
> 
> Yes Europe its broke and needs funds but that only means they will be more despo to win and give more in terms of tech transfer, BAE have a partnership with Mahindra Defence Systems as it is and have setup a r&d hub in India as well.




Commitment orders. They wont further develop it for their own purchases.

All the countries involved have cut down their orders and have opted for F-35.

Japan is done and the order is for US. Saudi well they even buy if F-22 is available.

Comparing France is not good as the orders are for single country. Their production facility is having a decent pace and since its already in a "developed" state any further advancements are given bonuses.

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## Kadamba

*An old article but relevant but worth notice in case politics is the crucial factor in deciding the winner.*

Typhoon blew off US fighter

The Eurofighter Typhoon has emerged as the number one aircraft, ahead of Dassault's Rafale, in a Ministry of Defence evaluation for the $10 billion MMRCA (Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft) contract. But a decision between the two will be taken after a final evaluation. According to sources, Boeing's F/A-18 Super Hornet was placed third, Saab's Gripen fourth, Lockheed Martin's F-16 fifth and the Russian Mig 35 sixth.

F/A-18 lost out to its European counterparts because it was inadequate to meet India's needs. It did not perform well at the trials, especially in Ladakh's Leh where its engines refused to start, say sources. F/A-18 was also perceived to be too heavy and so lacking in speed and manoeuvrability. It is a 30-year-old aircraft with technology dating back to the 1980s.

*The Eurofighter Typhoon was perceived to have several advantages over its competitors, especially over the aircraft on offer from the United States. It is the only fourth generation MMRCA in the world. It has better air to air, and air to ground capabilities that can be carried out simultaneously. As the Typhoon is a new fighter aircraft the potential for growth and upgrade is huge, lasting between 40-50 years. The Typhoon has a large supply base available, as it is in service with many Air Forces, such as, Germany, Great Britain, Italy, Spain and also Saudi Arabia. The Typhoon is also offering weapons packages that include the lethal Meteor missile, which is a radar guided beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile. New technologies also mean low lifecycle cost. The cost of ownership is also low.*

The Eurofighter Typhoon is a collaborative effort by Germany, Italy, Spain and the UK and will not come saddled with the intrusive end user monitoring agreement and the end user verification agreement that all US aircraft will be burdened with. These US Congress-mandated monitoring agreements demand that client states give the US the right to access and inspect the materiel bought from that country. Transfer of high-level technology will also be easier with the European aircraft than the US F-18/A.

During a recent meeting in Paris, sources in the French aircraft industry had said that their Rafale and the Eurofighter Typhoon were the two best aircraft on offer. The Gripen manufactured by Saab was dismissed as too small and lacking in power. Rafale was described as an "omni-role aircraft with low penetration." The French perceived the F-16 as an old aircraft. The MoD here was not keen on the F-16 primarily because Pakistan already has that.

According to a source, "Russia was never really in the game as the IAF wanted a non Russian platform and the Mig 35 was far from ready, only in a developmental stage. Gripen and the F-16 were also ruled out as the IAF wanted a twin engine aircraft and in the case of the F-16 the fact that Pakistan has it, precluded it from serious consideration."

The French were, however, wary of US President Barack Obama's capacity to influence India's decision. "It's difficult to say who'll get the MMRCA contract, but Eurofighter Typhoon is our main competitor," a source said.

*The decision in favour of the Typhoon and Rafale was swung by the IAF, which conducted what sources described as "an immaculate selection process". Defence Minister A.K. Antony was also clear that merit would be the only factor that would decide the selection.* Prime Minister Manmohan Singh too could not exert himself on a resolute defence minister as that would have laid him bare to another charge of cozying up to the US.

But the United States is unlikely to give up easily. Sources say that lobbying on behalf of the US has already started, with some senior journalists involved in the process. There are fears within defence circles that pressure will be applied on the MoD to either give the contract to F-18/A or to cancel the contract altogether. There are also fears that the US will make it difficult for both Eurofighter and Rafale, whoever wins the contract, to transfer any American technology they might be having. The US might also try to arm-twist India by threatening to put Indian companies back on the entities list.

*Meanwhile, Janata Party president Subramanian Swamy has sent a letter to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh alleging that there was a "pre-determined decision to favour the French aircraft" and this was an "outcome of several conversations between the wife of French President Ms. Carla Bruni and the Chairperson of the National Advisory Council Ms. Sonia Gandhi, and surprisingly also with two foreign nationals who are the sisters of Ms. Sonia Gandhi".

Swamy, alleged in his letter, that "based on some credible information" given to him on the "conversation" between Carla Bruni and Sonia Gandhi's sisters, "there has been an agreement of the French to pay a hefty bribe for favouring the purchase of French aircrafts".*


Typhoon blew off US fighter

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## Paan Singh

wtf????????????????


> Clearly, it's also a time ripe for reading into everything. The Pioneer newspaper suggests that a meeting between the Indian Prime Minister and French President in Cannes on the sidelines of the ongoing G20 summit, inexplicably cancelled at the last minute, suggested that France had lost the competition.



Livefist


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## Paan Singh

> Clearly, it's also a time ripe for reading into everything. The Pioneer newspaper suggests that a meeting between the Indian Prime Minister and French President in Cannes on the sidelines of the ongoing G20 summit, inexplicably cancelled at the last minute, suggested that France had lost the competition.



Livefist


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## Vimana

SpArK said:


> Commitment orders. They wont further develop it for their own purchases.
> 
> All the countries involved have cut down their orders and have opted for F-35.
> 
> Japan is done and the order is for US. Saudi well they even buy if F-22 is available.
> 
> Comparing France is not good as the orders are for single country. Their production facility is having a decent pace and since its already in a "developed" state any further advancements are given bonuses.




Yes they cut their orders due to the economic situation which they find themselves in which makes them even more desperate. It is a myth there is no further development funded for the EF just look at this baby for one:


http://www.eurofighter.com/capabilities/technology/cockpit/helmet-ounted-smbology-ystem.html



"The plan is to, over the next eight to 10 years, take a phased approach to enhancing the Typhoon's capability," says Rob Wells, Eurofighter's export future business manager. "It is the exports that are driving these enhancements."

Eurofighter unveiled the plans, which include *optional conformal fuel tanks, at IDEX 2011. Other enhancements include the option of MBDA's Meteor beyond visual-range air-to-air missile from 2014 and an active electronically scanned array radar that potentially offers a wider field of regard from 2015.*
*New air-to-surface weapons would include anti-ship missiles, stand-off-range cruise missiles and long-range glide bombs. A thrust-vectoring nozzle is also being offered for the aircraft's Eurojet EJ200 turbofan engines.*


I can see the EF winning more tenders in the future for sure and more countries will operate the fighter that is why it will have a brighter future to the unwanted 2nd best Rafale and soon you will see the EF in Indian colours

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## SpArK

> Clearly, it's also a time ripe for reading into everything. The Pioneer newspaper suggests that a meeting between the Indian Prime Minister and French President in Cannes on the sidelines of the ongoing G20 summit, inexplicably cancelled at the last minute, suggested that France had lost the competition.



Never knew MMS talked about fighter jets at places like G-20


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## Paan Singh

SpArK said:


> Never knew MMS talked about fighter jets at places like G-20



well out of p5 leaders,4 leaders talked about mmrca during their visits.it could be a signal + rafale bid is slightly lower than eft..

so cant ignore it,it will bail out eads or dassault.


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## SpArK

Vimana said:


> Yes they cut their orders due to the economic situation which they find themselves in which makes them even more desperate. It is a myth there is no further development funded for the EF just look at this baby for one:
> 
> 
> http://www.****************/new-helmet-enables-eurofighter-pilots-to-look-lock-on-and-fire-31079/
> 
> 
> "The plan is to, over the next eight to 10 years, take a phased approach to enhancing the Typhoon's capability," says Rob Wells, Eurofighter's export future business manager. "It is the exports that are driving these enhancements."
> 
> Eurofighter unveiled the plans, which *include optional conformal fuel tanks, at IDEX 2011. Other enhancements include the option of MBDA's Meteor beyond visual-range air-to-air missile from 2014 and an active electronically scanned array radar that potentially offers a wider field of regard from 2015.
> 
> New air-to-surface weapons would include anti-ship missiles, stand-off-range cruise missiles and long-range glide bombs. A thrust-vectoring nozzle is also being offered for the aircraft's Eurojet EJ200 turbofan engines.
> 
> 
> I can see the EF winning more tenders in the future for sure and more countries will operate the fighter that is why it will have a brighter future to the unwanted 2nd best Rafale and soon you will see the EF in Indian colours *


*

Yes as i suggested.. more years to enhance it capabilities.
Yes reduction in orders and developments due to financial crisis. Its like buying from somebody who is broke .
For starters the EFT TVC is no where and its not part of the deal.
And Meteor comes in Rafale too.
AESA in 2015.. lol.. Rafale will come with an AESA from 2012 if chosen.


Rest is just fanboyism with "will" and "and's"*

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## Vimana

SpArK said:


> Yes as i suggested.. more years to enhance it capabilities.
> Yes reduction in orders and developments due to financial crisis. Its like buying from somebody who is broke .
> For starters the EFT TVC is no where and its not part of the deal.
> And Meteor comes in Rafale too.
> AESA in 2015.. lol.. Rafale will come with an AESA from 2012 if chosen.
> 
> 
> Rest is just fanboyism with "will" and "and's"




Like i said above it is a myth there is no further development for the EF just read about the Eurofighter *Typhoon Helmet Mounted Symbology System* btw this has been offered to India. As for AESA the EF will get a operational AESA from about 2015 onwards and it will be superior to RBE2-AA so why settle for 2nd best ? when you can wait a while and get the best which is the EF


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## Vasily Zaytsev

Kadamba said:


> Bids open for fighter aircraft, likely to be a political call - Indian Express
> ------
> -------
> While the French *Rafale came out to be slightly cheaper than the European Consortiums Eurofighter in terms of fly away cost per unit, as expected, the difference was less than 5 per cent.* This throws the competition open.
> -------
> [/SIZE]


 

If the difference is less than 5 percent then Eurofighter is sure to win.

Stupid French, always jacking up prices.......I wanted Rafale to win but the French has royally screwed the chances of happening. I was expecting the price diff. to be of 15 to 20 %.

Either the French were too greedy or the EF guys lowered their prices.

Either way well played Eurofighter.

I want Rafale to win but it seems now we have to be happy with EF.............sad news........indeed.

You money hungry French.............you built a beautiful plane......but don't know how to market it.........................now go and screw yourselves..........stupid !!!!


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## SpArK

Vimana said:


> Like i said above it is a myth there is no further development for the EF just read about the Eurofighter *Typhoon Helmet Mounted Symbology System* btw this has been offered to India. As for AESA the EF will get a operational AESA from about 2015 onwards and it will be superior to RBE2-AA so why settle for 2nd best ? when you can wait a while and get the best which is the EF




Nothing new from what i have read in the forum for more than 15 months.

Lets wait they seriously start producing Tranche 2 or atleast Tranchee 3 from the initial orders first.

The Helmet mounted and the AESA superiority has been better explained by sancho in the same thread.

Second best? on what? We are looking for Multi role. So far Rafale has scored more on multi role capabilities. 

We are still arguing EFT will be good "one day". By that time rafale will move to the next level.


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## ramu

SpArK said:


> Yes as i suggested.. more years to enhance it capabilities.
> Yes reduction in orders and developments due to financial crisis. Its like buying from somebody who is broke .
> For starters the EFT TVC is no where and its not part of the deal.
> And Meteor comes in Rafale too.
> AESA in 2015.. lol.. Rafale will come with an AESA from 2012 if chosen.
> 
> 
> Rest is just fanboyism with "will" and "and's"



Are you for a minute saying the Euro fighters promoters are more broke than France ? Check again !

Germany and UK are the most important players and they back the Euro fighter.


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## rockstarIN

It seems French are showing the 'attitude' again (read the cancelling of Sarkozy-MMS meeting at the last minute)


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## Paan Singh

ramu said:


> Are you for a minute saying the Euro fighters promoters are more broke than France ? Check again !
> 
> Germany and UK are the most important players and they back the Euro fighter.



and spain italy are bankrupt and choosing f-35 including britain.
so who is going to use t3??only india


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## ramu

rockstar said:


> It seems French are showing the 'attitude' again (read the cancelling of Sarkozy-MMS meeting at the last minute)



Who knows who is showing attitude ! Let us not just assume based on penny journalists who read everything in to anything.


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## SpArK

ramu said:


> Are you for a minute saying the Euro fighters promoters are more broke
> Germany and UK are the most important players and they back the Euro fighter.



The order cuts suggests so. They are backing it until December and backing off after that.

Their are still funds to be allotted to development and thankfully some has been for the AESA as reported last week.

They are hedging big on our orders to further develop everything including the non starter naval version.

And apart from the committed orders we wont see even the production countries buying anything and are now competing each other to transfer their orders to others as seen by done by UK on saudi's.

---------- Post added at 12:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:37 PM ----------




rockstar said:


> It seems French are showing the 'attitude' again (read the cancelling of Sarkozy-MMS meeting at the last minute)



MMS doesnt know much about Rafale .. he knows only about Raul..


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## ramu

Prism said:


> and spain italy are bankrupt and choosing f-35 including britain.
> so who is going to use t3??only india



Austria, Germany, UK and Saudi Arabia

India will be a development partner if it chooses the Euro fighter and they may offer to part with sensitive technology and setup manufacturing centers in India not just for Indian fighter requirements but for themselves too. This will bring down cost and for India we learn a good lot. It is a significant win win.


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## SpArK

Vimana said:


> Rafale move to the next level?  thats a good one Spark when it is the EF that will be multi role in the near future but the Rafale can never change it's skin it will be inferior to EF and the Indian airforce know it already.



Its just common sense...

EF will do this in future, EF will do that in future..lol

Since Dassault has done everything, what will they do in future ? Drink chai and play kabaddi for their rest of their lives?


Also to quote from sancho





> UAE (no other competitior) 60 x fighters
> Swiss (according the evaluation, the best fighter) 22 x fighters
> Brazil (prefered by all governmeant officials, but too costly for them at the moment) 36 + 24 for the navy, + possibly up to 100 for the air force
> Malaysia, Kuwait, Qatar...,
> 
> EF at the moment has only chances in Japan, Malaysia and Qatar, although reports say it was rejected in Japan (not official yet) and the chances in Qatar are very low, since they operate the Mirage 2000 too. It should be obvious which fighter has a brighter future in regard to exports.

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## Mani2020

Isn't the lingering deal resulting into price hike due to inflation and other factors .... i mean the MRCA program started some good ~5 years ago but till today its not been finalised ....and if you look at the price you have to pay now and compare it to the one that could have been paid 3-4 years back ,there would be a good difference .......Its good to test the aircrafts and study the deals thoroughly as some may argue ....but it had many draw backs too ....two of them are more price and delay in retiring of old fighters resulting into loosing many lives..... if you compare the cost vs benefit .... one may have different conclusions .....for some pilot lives and tax payers money is more important than i would personally say the lingering test and studies of the competing aircrafts....for some it may be other way round ..... Some may argue that IAF has much money to spend so no worries....but still no matter how much money you got doesn't mean you have no obligations to the tax payers or the nation ....


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## ramu

SpArK said:


> The order cuts suggests so. They are backing it until December and backing off after that.
> 
> Their are still funds to be allotted to development and thankfully some has been for the AESA as reported last week.
> 
> They are hedging big on our orders to further develop everything including the non starter naval version.
> 
> And apart from the committed orders we wont see even the production countries buying anything and are now competing each other to transfer their orders to others as seen by done by UK on saudi's.



It is better to be a pivotal player than to play a second fiddle. If in your opinion both the fighters are good, then look at the current financial crisis at a temporary phenomena. These fighters will be around for the next 4 decades and it is better to bet on a fighter that is backed by many countries than to put all the eggs in one basket and feel sorry later. 

Dont get me wrong. I am a Rafale fan but the french are not good in keeping up commitments especially after the deal is once signed and the ink goes dry. I have friends in GTRE and I have heard enough about the french.


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## SpArK

ramu said:


> Austria, Germany, UK and Saudi Arabia
> 
> India will be a development partner if it chooses the Euro fighter and they may offer to part with sensitive technology and setup manufacturing centers in India not just for Indian fighter requirements but for themselves too. This will bring down cost and for India we learn a good lot. It is a significant win win.



You expect the cash strapped EU to transfer their orders to Indian production facilities..loosing their local jobs.. 

Its good if we can finish off 100+ fighters orders in 2 years, or maybe 5 years or 7 years starting from 2017, the time we have already starting to induct FGFA in IAF.

Good thinking.

---------- Post added at 12:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:49 PM ----------




ramu said:


> It is better to be a pivotal player than to play a second fiddle. If in your opinion both the fighters are good, then look at the current financial crisis at a temporary phenomena. These fighters will be around for the next 4 decades and it is better to bet on a fighter that is backed by many countries than to put all the eggs in one basket and feel sorry later.
> 
> Dont get me wrong. I am a Rafale fan but the french are not good in keeping up commitments especially after the deal is once signed and the ink goes dry. I have friends in GTRE and I have heard enough about the french.



"Pivotal" player among 7+ odd different people or the second pivotal player among 2.

Choose the correct answer.


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## SpArK

Vimana said:


> Sancho was wrong i quoted him already on this that the Brazilian airforce wanted the Gripen not the Rafale you can read my earlier post.
> 
> Anyway the Indian airforce know EF is better we shall see who wins



I've been following the Brasil order for quite some time now. I rather believe the articles from all those years rather than a post by Vimana.


Indian airforce has clearly stated its favorite by the words of retired and serving pilots. You may not like what they have stated.


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## Safriz

this is big "boss 5" of the fighter jets.....

and shows the complete inability of indian defence mechinery to reach a decision.....


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## ramu

SpArK said:


> You expect the cash strapped EU to transfer their orders to Indian production facilities..loosing their local jobs..
> 
> Its good if we can finish off 100+ fighters orders in 2 years, or maybe 5 years or 7 years starting from 2017, the time we have already starting to induct FGFA in IAF.
> 
> Good thinking.
> 
> "Pivotal" player among 7+ odd different people or the second pivotal player among 2.
> 
> Choose the correct answer.




A cash strapped EU includes France.

Euro Fighter has offered co-development. When it comes to all or nothing and they hinge on Indian orders they are willing to go the extra mile. 



You never know how many we can produce if a local manufacturing setup takes shape. Remember, the offset clauses need not be through HAL! 

Pivotal player among 7 given inessence the main players UK and Germany desperately want this deal. Being a second fiddle among 2 where the main player is unreliable is a no no.


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## SpArK

safriz said:


> this is big "boss 5" of the fighter jets.....
> 
> and shows the complete inability of indian defence mechinery to reach a decision.....



Can you read a 1000 page article of two fighters bids stating all the costs of spares, life cycle and all other technical in a days time.

If yes you must be a genius.


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## SpArK

ramu said:


> A cash strapped EU includes France.
> 
> Euro Fighter has offered co-development. When it comes to all or nothing and they hinge on Indian orders they are willing to go the extra mile.
> 
> 
> 
> You never know how many we can produce if a local manufacturing setup takes shape. Remember, the offset clauses need not be through HAL!
> 
> Pivotal player among 7 given inessence the main players UK and Germany desperately want this deal. Being a second fiddle among 2 where the main player is unreliable is a no no.



But it has nt affected the programme.

I just need a simple answer from all EFT fanboys.

*At war times would India may like supplies from 1 country or 5-6 ones?*

Just answer that one.

---------- Post added at 01:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:05 PM ----------




Vimana said:


> Sir are you saying that the Brazilian airforce wanted the Rafale as their 1st choice? btw i might be new here but i have also been keeping up with defence tenders.
> 
> 
> 
> Leaked report: Brazilian air force 'wants Gripen'
> 
> 
> Remember it was more a politicial deal on why the PM wanted to go for the Rafale but the airforce wanted the Gripen.



Doesnt that article clearly says "its due to the costs" and not capabilities.

Well we are ok with costs thats why Gripen has been shown the doors.

Anyway the result of the MRCA will surely be reflecting on other fighter procurements, just wait and watch.


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## Safriz

SpArK said:


> Can you read a 1000 page article of two fighters bids stating all the costs of spares, life cycle and all other technical in a days time.
> 
> If yes you must be a genius.


 
i wont take 6 years either.


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## SpArK

safriz said:


> i wont take 6 years either.



Bids were opened yesterday dude.. open ur eyes first.

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## jha

*While the French Rafale came out to be slightly cheaper than the European Consortium&#8217;s Eurofighter in terms of &#8216;fly away cost&#8217; per unit, as expected, the difference was less than 5 per cent. This throws the competition open.*


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## SpArK

Vimana said:


> You failed to understand my point that I said the *Brazlian airforce * wanted the Gripen as their 1st choice and Rafale was a political move more to do with the technology provided by France for their N sub.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course this is nothing to do with MRCA but i wanted to correct you senior members






> The Folha de São Paulo newspaper reported that the air force's F-X2 procurement programme committee has ranked Saab's Gripen NG as its first-choice candidate for the deal, initially for 36 aircraft, *due to its lowest acquisition and operating costs*



Yes Maruti 800 is always cheaper than BMW and is preferred for the cash strapped.


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## ramu

SpArK said:


> But it has nt affected the programme.
> 
> I just need a simple answer from all EFT fanboys.
> 
> *At war times would India may like supplies from 1 country or 5-6 ones?*
> 
> Just answer that one.



India produces [read manufactures from raw materials and blue print] the SU 30 MKI from nose to tail including the radar and the engine. If India cannot get ToT + source codes, then it is $11 Billion down the drain. We might aswell cancel the deal and focus on Tejas, FGFA and PAK FA. India should have the capability to manufacture 90% of the spares if not all. Also France is a lot less reliable when compared to Germany or UK.


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## Safriz

SpArK said:


> Bids were opened yesterday dude.. open ur eyes first.


 
yaar sparky..abhi troll bhi nahi kernay detay?

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## ramu

Vimana said:


> *The Gripen NG offers the best opportunity for collaboration and a cost conscious but high performance option. The Super Hornet offers high performance without the potential for co-development. Professional evaluators continue to be unimpressed with the Rafale's capabilities despite France's willingness to transfer all relevant technology and aggressive high-level political support for the sale. *
> 
> 
> 
> Read again it is not only cost but the *best* fighter for the Brazilian airforce and if the PM wanted the Rafale and was willing to fund it why they wanted a 'lower cost' fighter? mmm perhaps because the Rafale is not worth the extra money i should think



No point discussing Gripen NG. It is out and not coming back.

End of story.


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## SpArK

Vimana said:


> *The Gripen NG offers the best opportunity for collaboration and a cost conscious but high performance option. The Super Hornet offers high performance without the potential for co-development. Professional evaluators continue to be unimpressed with the Rafale's capabilities despite France's willingness to transfer all relevant technology and aggressive high-level political support for the sale. *
> 
> 
> 
> Read again it is not only cost but the *best* fighter for the Brazilian airforce and if the PM wanted the Rafale and was willing to fund it why they wanted a 'lower cost' fighter? mmm perhaps because the Rafale is not worth the extra money i should think



Yeah yeah... thats why they were shown the doors....

I cant believe you are repeating it again and again ..

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## SpArK

jha said:


> *While the French Rafale came out to be slightly cheaper than the European Consortium&#8217;s Eurofighter in terms of &#8216;fly away cost&#8217; per unit, as expected, the difference was less than 5 per cent. This throws the competition open.*



Stage 2

Life cycle costs.


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## ramu

> Im speaking about the Brazil tender not MRCA and just making my point to seniors



I understand what you posted just saying that Gripen NG is a closed chapter in Brazil as well as India.


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## SpArK

Asking again the same question.


*At war times would India may like supplies from 1 country or 5-6 ones?*


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## Imran Khan

good morning have a nice day and congs to all for refale dears so you guys select mirage-5000 for this contract ?


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## ramu

SpArK said:


> Asking again the same question.
> 
> 
> *At war times would India may like supplies from 1 country or 5-6 ones?*



I have answered that question. If we have ToT and license to manufacture spares, we are dependent on none. And in war times, if we have the technology, we wont be waiting for a green signal to manufacture spares ourselves.
To add, the critical technology is cornered by Germany and UK. It is not 5-6, it is 2. All the technology to produce the fighters will be available with these two. So 5 or 6 is a wrong number.

3rd the one we are relying on during wartime is unreliable even in peace time. So I think you know my answer.


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## bubble123

I haven't read all the pages back so i don't know what's going on in this thread.

Anyways who has won ?


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## SpArK

ramu said:


> I have answered that question. If we have ToT and license to manufacture spares, we are dependent on none. And in war times, if we have the technology, we wont be waiting for a green signal to manufacture spares ourselves.
> To add, the critical technology is cornered by Germany and UK. It is not 5-6, it is 2. All the technology to produce the fighters will be available with these two. So 5 or 6 is a wrong number.
> 
> 3rd the one we are relying on during wartime is unreliable even in peace time. So I think you know my answer.



Sorry we are not getting license to manufacture spares. It will come from the manufacturing country and we will assemble it in HAL.
Lots of jobs are at stake in UK over this .

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## Kadamba

Imran Khan said:


> good morning have a nice day and congs to all for refale dears so you guys select mirage-5000 for this contract ?



Imran Bhai, sab log MMRCA ko lekar pareshan hai, Is naajuk mauke par "Insaniyat" dikhana to door, kam se kam aapka "*Troll*iyat" ko to ham par na barsaayiye.  (No offence, just kidding)

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## ramu

SpArK said:


> Sorry we are not getting license to manufacture spares. It will come from the manufacturing country and we will assemble it in HAL.
> Lots of jobs are at stake in UK over this .



The following Verifiable Cost Model(VCM) parameters will be considered:
1. Direct Acquisition Cost or Initial Cost including that of weapons and spares
2. Warranty for the first two years; 
*3. Licence Royalty for manufacture in India;*
4. Cost of Transfer of Technology; 
5. Cost of Initial Training
6. Operating costs like consumption of fuel and lubricants.


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## SpArK

ramu said:


> The following VCM parameters will be considered:
> 1. Direct Acquisition Cost or Initial Cost including that of weapons and spares
> 2. Warranty for the first two years;
> *3. Licence Royalty for manufacture in India;*
> 4. Cost of Transfer of Technology;
> 5. Cost of Initial Training
> 6. Operating costs like consumption of fuel and lubricants.



1,2,4 to an extend,5,and 6 will be agreed upon.


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## ramu

SpArK said:


> 1,2,4 to an extend,5,and 6 will be agreed upon.



License royalty for manufacture in India is a parameter for selection. the above is just digression from what you had claimed before.In your words it is just fanboy stuff.


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## Imran Khan

Kadamba said:


> Imran Bhai, sab log MMRCA ko lekar pareshan hai, Is naajuk mauke par "Insaniyat" dikhana to door, kam se kam aapka "*Troll*iyat" ko to ham par na barsaayiye.  (No offence, just kidding)



to be honest why they are worry ? ye kya baby birth ho rahi hai ?you guys should be happy yaar .BTW i have 5 days off of i stop troliyat then my time will never pass i feel bor and stuck here .nothing more dear after Wednesday i will go office and become innocent again .

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## SpArK

ramu said:


> License royalty for manufacture in India is a parameter for selection. the above is just digression from what you had claimed before.In your words it is just fanboy stuff.



yes the 4 plants in England and the other ones are gonna close soon .

And reports they getting ecstatic over Indian deal is propoganda.


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## Safriz

Imran Khan said:


> good morning have a nice day and congs to all for refale dears so you guys select mirage-5000 for this contract ?


 
le voices tell me F-35 won


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## Imran Khan

safriz said:


> le voices tell me F-35 won



india need them now not 2025 dear f-35 means no kickbacks for babus which hold files since 6 years


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## Safriz

Imran Khan said:


> india need them now not 2025 dear f-35 means no kickbacks for babus which hold files since 6 years


 
you cant understand the great wisdom behind delaying MMRCA..
IAF is waiting for the prices to drop......you see another few years and the eurofighter or rafael will be sold at scrap metal price...thats when MMRCA will be finalized....saving india monies.


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## SpArK

Life cycle costs.



> On the operations front, the Austrian Defense Ministry has allocated &#8364;32 million per annum for the deployment and maintenance of the jets, even though a calculation by the Rechnungshof has estimated operations for 1500 flight hours to cost &#8364;50 million a year, later even climbing to over &#8364;100 million a year after 2013. If those projections prove accurate, and without the implementation of financial adjustments, the Austrian armed forces would have to cover the additional Eurofighter operations costs with funds originally earmarked for other purposes.
> According to Professor Heinz Gärtner from the Austrian Institute for International Affairs, &#8220;Austria&#8217;s main defense profile lies in international missions and disaster relief. For these tasks the Eurofighter is useless,&#8221; he told ISN Security Watch.
> &#8220;Territorial defense is only of tertiary importance. The high acquisition and maintenance costs of the Eurofighter require necessary cuts in other areas, such as helicopters, armed vehicles, air lift and surveillance, reconnaissance and communication.&#8221;



Austria: Eurofighter Saga Continues / ISN



> each operational Raptor will have cost US taxpayers perhaps £175m once the planned production run finishes. The price per Eurofighter which actually flies operationally in the RAF will probably be about the same, if current rumours of cost increases on the final batch are true. This seems like poor value; the Raptor appears to be every bit as much an agile, overpowered superfighter and it has Stealth too.



Raptor and Eurofighter go head to head ? The Register

For more on it refer to


http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/84507-cost-buying-operating-fighters-its-effects-sales.html

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## Tangent

safriz said:


> you cant understand the great wisdom behind delaying MMRCA..
> IAF is waiting for the prices to drop......you see another few years and the eurofighter or rafael will be sold at scrap metal price...thats when MMRCA will be finalized....saving india monies.


........who will take care for teh depreciation of INR ....??
Cost of MMRCA will only increase with time....
Only F-16 prices are comming down....


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## Imran Khan

Tangent said:


> ........who will take care for teh depreciation of INR ....??
> Cost of MMRCA will only increase with time....
> Only F-16 prices are comming down....



yep dear i think its because no more customers for f-16 and few remaining customers of f-16 which US don't wanna sold them so its neutral .but refale eu fighters are still better and there is more 10 to 15 years when they will go down in price.


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## Raje amar

SpArK said:


> Life cycle costs.
> 
> 
> 
> Austria: Eurofighter Saga Continues / ISN
> 
> 
> 
> Raptor and Eurofighter go head to head ? The Register
> 
> For more on it refer to
> 
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/84507-cost-buying-operating-fighters-its-effects-sales.html



thanks for the very informative post.

dose that mean that $20 Bil what will be the coted cost every where will actually incurred over the period of the entire lifr of the plane & not what needs to be paid on the final delivery of the plane.


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## Paan Singh

Raje amar said:


> thanks for the very informative post.
> 
> dose that mean that $20 Bil what will be the coted cost every where will actually incurred over the period of the entire lifr of the plane & not what needs to be paid on the final delivery of the plane.



as per other article,

20 billion will include other small deals,may be arms purchases


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## Raje amar

if it includes the spares for the lifetime with the wepons, well i supose its not that bad.
also we are discussing from the start of the fascility setup for maintenance & inetial training of the technicians & pilots

but if it excludes all of this i will say leave all this & go for Gripan NG $20 Bil is a huge amount.


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## Whazzup

Tangent said:


> ........who will take care for teh depreciation of INR ....??
> Cost of MMRCA will only increase with time....
> Only F-16 prices are comming down....



Put a break on these logical posts as Safriz has allready made it clear in his post #215 that he's here to troll.


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## Raje amar

OOOHHHH man ......
i was expecting at least 15-20% price differnce. if the lifecycle cost did turn out to be same as this (mear 5% diff) i will shift my vote to EF.
whats the use of all the available infrastructure & experiance with MIRAGE2000. also they are having commanality with the wepons.


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## Whazzup

Raje amar said:


> OOOHHHH man ......
> i was expecting at least 15-20% price differnce. if the lifecycle cost did turn out to be same as this (mear 5% diff) i will shift my vote to EF.
> whats the use of all the available infrastructure & experiance with MIRAGE2000. also they are having commanality with the wepons.



But still Rafale is a complete machine with a working AESA and mature strike capability.


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## rds1207

Imran Khan said:


> so who is winner? today is mighty friday god damn 04-11-2011 as per they will open bids. i think bids are so tight they can't open them



we are not talking about pant zip


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## IND151

Vasily Zaytsev said:


> If the difference is less than 5 percent then Eurofighter is sure to win.
> 
> Stupid French, always jacking up prices.......I wanted Rafale to win but the French has royally screwed the chances of happening. I was expecting the price diff. to be of 15 to 20 %.
> 
> Either the French were too greedy or the EF guys lowered their prices.
> 
> Either way well played Eurofighter.
> 
> I want Rafale to win but it seems now we have to be happy with EF.............sad news........indeed.
> 
> You money hungry French.............you built a beautiful plane......but don't know how to market it.........................now go and screw yourselves..........stupid !!!!



rafale has its own advantages.

1.single manufacturer

2. close political ties with France

3. similarity with mirage 2000 which is known for 90% sortie rate


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## Zabaniyah

Go for Rafales. Also would be good for navy in additional acquisitions.


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## Contract Killer

Only n Only EF will join us............. Ek teer se 4 shikar.


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## jha

jackhammer2 said:


> But still Rafale is a complete machine with a working AESA and mature strike capability.



But question is - are we inducting the planes today to fight today or, future..We have waited more than 8 years fo these..If another 1 year delay means Better product, then i say we should go for it..

However best option is to scuttle the deal completely and concentrate on home developed options...

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## Vasily Zaytsev

IND151 said:


> rafale has its own advantages.
> 
> 1.single manufacturer
> 
> 2. close political ties with France
> 
> 3. similarity with mirage 2000 which is known for 90% sortie rate


 

But if price is not a factor then EF has an edge.

1. Meteor
2. Taurus 
3. Powerful Engine with possibility of TVC
4. Aesa with more modules and higher range. (Remember EF's nose is bigger)
5. Most Imp. : TOT ( with source code) much more than Rafale.
6. Partnership with EADS.
7. Goodwill of Four countries.

I still want Rafale which gives us an option for nuclear Platform. But the signs are clearly indicating an EF win.

If I had the power, Rafale would have flown in IAF colours...............but alas.........the French have screwed the chances of that happening. The price advantage of Rafale has been dented.............so............EF has the advantage.

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## kaykay

i dont understand why people here hate eft only thing they lack is a operational aesa radar and some air to ground capabilities which they are saying to provide afterwards have some faith we will induct them not before 2014 and by then these issues would be sorted out...anyway i dont think that we are going to war any time soon.....and at last if the difference in cost is mere 5% than eft makes more sense.


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## DrSomnath999

jha said:


> But question is - are we inducting the planes today to fight today or, future..We have waited more than 8 years fo these..If another 1 year delay means Better product, then i say we should go for it..
> 
> However best option is to scuttle the deal completely and concentrate on home developed options...


exactly we are not going to do war next day once we acquire MMRCA jets ,so if we could get a more advanced product by waiting one or 2 more yr then it is worth waiting .,


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## Safriz

^^ofcourse india should wait more....so that flying saucers with laser guns are available to be inducted in IAF 
Eurofighter wont be enough for india's future wars.

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## kaykay

safriz said:


> ^^ofcourse india should wait more....so that flying saucers with laser guns are available to be inducted in IAF
> Eurofighter wont be enough for india's future wars.


right now our mkis are enough for any paf type threat...and let me tell you we are not in hurry else deal would have signed earlier.....and don't forget eurofighter/rafale would not be alone the big daddy fgfa would be coming in future too.


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## Safriz

jackhammer2 said:


> Put a break on these logical posts as Safriz has allready made it clear in his post #215 that he's here to troll.


 
yaar tum log to mazay bhi nahi lenay detay 
btw...if something lingers for this long..its natural for people to stop taking it seriously and make fun of it.
you cant blame me of making fun of this thread....i read biweekly update on MMRCA predicting an end to thos soap opera....and yet it continues.

yeh to kum.kum walay dramay say bhee lamba ho gaya.

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## Safriz

and here here...even wikipedia calls it "mmrca competition"
http:\\Indian MRCA competition - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

same as xfactor competition..... or something..
there isnt any other defence contract anywhere in the world which has been drummed up so much...for so long..
usually it happend quietly without making it a popularity stunt.


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## SpArK

safriz said:


> and here here...even wikipedia calls it "mmrca competition"
> http:\\Indian MRCA competition - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> same as xfactor competition..... or something..
> there isnt any other defence contract anywhere in the world which has been drummed up so much...for so long..
> usually it happend quietly without making it a popularity stunt.



Wooo what a revelation.Dude, everybody knows its a competition.Like the japanese or the brasil fx-2, the sheer numbers make it catchy.

Between Brasil and japan didnt finalise too. We are the first one to choose from the newer ones. quite trendy ..Isnt it?

And thank god we have waited this long. If it was chosen at once it would have been all Mirages. 

But with all these years we get the most modern one available in the fighter market.

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## DarK-LorD

Prism said:


> Livefist


This is a pic of MMS with Sarkozy 1 day back.


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## Paan Singh

SR-71 BlackBird said:


> This is a pic of MMS with Sarkozy 1 day back.



there is a difference b/w hand shaking and a meeting


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## DarK-LorD

Prism said:


> there is a difference b/w hand shaking and a meeting


I know that only too well.But I don't see anger in NS's face.


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## Thundersword

SR-71 BlackBird said:


> I know that only too well.But I don't see anger in NS's face.


MMS's face looks like he's thinking "let go of me hand ur hurting it" lol.
@topic is it confirmed officialy that rafale emerged the lowest bidder (only fly away cost)???


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## SpArK

Just uploaded an awesome video... enjoy...

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## 1ndy

Imran Khan said:


> BTW its not world biggest fighter deal but saudi 60bn$ deal of f-15 sielent eagle deal
> 
> 
> Us Prepares To Approve $60bn Arms Deal With Saudi Arabia
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/sep/1...al-saudi-arabia


*
202+202=404*


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## Whazzup

SpArK said:


> Just uploaded an awesome video... enjoy...



Look at the eyes of the pilot, the is G really killing him.

And is that Topsight E ?? looks ugly.


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## Whazzup

jha said:


> But question is - are we inducting the planes today to fight today or, future..We have waited more than 8 years fo these..If another 1 year delay means Better product, then i say we should go for it..
> 
> However best option is to scuttle the deal completely and concentrate on home developed options...



No the ques is are EF partners really willing to upgrade this plane as we all know that the financial condition of these countries is not good and they are going for F35 anyway.But French are 100% dedicated to Rafales.


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## SpArK

jackhammer2 said:


> Look at the eyes of the pilot, the is G really killing him.
> 
> And is that Topsight E ?? looks ugly.



I think its not topsight , maybe something for the airshow perhaps.

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## Whazzup

DrSomnath999 said:


> exactly we are not going to do war next day once we acquire MMRCA jets ,so if we could get a more advanced product by waiting one or 2 more yr then it is worth waiting .,



Then I think that we should keep on waiting and buy these

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## Thundersword

SpArK said:


> Just uploaded an awesome video... enjoy...



OMG!!! I jus love this bird....... how can anyone not????? rafale rafale rafale.... we want rafale!!!!!!!!
Btw spark din't know you flew planes under the guise of michael lol

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## golmaal

Imran Khan said:


> BTW its not world biggest fighter deal but saudi 60bn$ deal of f-15 sielent eagle deal
> 
> 
> Us Prepares To Approve $60bn Arms Deal With Saudi Arabia
> 
> 
> Its Not Imran Bhai..
> I think they are going for 84 F-15 fighters!


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## Safriz

Thundersword said:


> OMG!!! I jus love this bird....... how can anyone not????? rafale rafale rafale.... we want rafale!!!!!!!!
> Btw spark din't know you flew planes under the guise of michael lol


 
how about a rafael tatoo on your arm?


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## Thundersword

jackhammer2 said:


> Look at the eyes of the pilot, the is G really killing him.
> 
> And is that Topsight E ?? looks ugly.


nope.... this doesn't look like topsight E :





@ safriz I would just love it!!!! know anyone who tattoos Rafale in India ????? if yes pls temme 
Ohh and for the last time it's RAFALE!!!!! meaning Squall in french .... rafael is israeli.... but I bet you already knew.....

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## DrSomnath999

jackhammer2 said:


> Then I think that we should keep on waiting and buy these


yes star war plane with starwar helmet




well we can wage war not only with our neighbours but also aliens

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## golmaal

Yea.. and the Indian spaceship name would be PANCHAGNI (Five Fires)..


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## INDIAN SOLDIER

*Indian Air Force combat aircraft deal winner to be finalised in six weeks*

NEW DELHI: The multi-billion dollar deal to procure 126 combat aircraft for the Indian Air Force (IAF) entered its last phase on Friday with Defence Ministry opening commercial bids of the two European contenders to determine the lowest bidder, a process that is expected to take six to eight weeks.

"The Contract Negotiations Committee (CNC) of the Defence Ministry opened the commercial bids and read out the offers made by the Eurofighter and Dassault Rafale in the presence of their representatives. Now the Ministry will evaluate and examine their proposals to arrive at the lowest bidder (L1)," a Defence Ministry spokesperson said here.

*The two contenders now know each other's quote for the bid but it will take another six to eight weeks for deciding on the ultimate winner of the bid, Ministry sources said here.*


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## sancho

Vimana said:


> @Sancho the Brazilian airforce wanted the Gripen not the Rafale it was their 1st choice but due to pressure + the the deal struck with France for help on their N sub they were compelled to go for Rafale. At the moment that tender is still up in the air and the F18 is back in the race the last I heard.



That's not correct, some parts of the air forces which are related to Embraer stated their preference to Gripen, but it was never the first choice in Brazil. The Brazilian airforce chief even prefered the F18SH, while as I said the government always prefered the Rafale for obvious reasons, because just like in India, their competition was re-issued to increase the benefits for the indigenous industry and that's why the Rafale is the best choice for them. France offers the best ToT and offset package in their deal and clearly the best fighter as well, but with the current problems of Brazilian economic and the reduction of the defence budget, it's difficult for them to buy it, since it is the most expensive fighter in *their* competition.




Vimana said:


> Like i said before nobody wants the Rafale when you can have the EF  it is 2nd best and always will be end of matter.



 Which is a funny statement, since EF was rejected in Brazil, while Rafale was shortlisted to the final stage and the same happend in the past in Singapore, or S. Korea...and the Rafale proved in Libya how much more capable it is compared to the EF. Both fighters has similar potential, but only the French are constantly uprading their fighter to get it that far and when you look at the current status of the EF partners, the future of Rafale is also much brighter than EFs, be it for exports or to get to its full potential, just as Spark explained to you.




Vimana said:


> Also the Swiss can't even afford the rafale how they going to pay for EF? they cancelled the whole tender process and will start for new budget year



You obviously don't follow the news, the Rafale came out the Swiss evaluation as number 1, EF only 2nd and one reason for it was, that the Rafale is cheaper and Swiss could afford the 22 fighters they wanted, while the EF is too expensive and they could only buy a max of 18 EFs. Besides that the operational costs of Rafale are also cheaper:



> *Combat Aircraft: manufacturers under pressure!*
> 
> ...The Gripen is the less expensive plane with an offer around 3 billion, while the Eurofighter is around 4 billion. The Rafale is between the two.
> 
> The situation of three competitors:
> 
> The French aircraft is undoubtedly the favorite *with a price that is perfectly in the line with the imposed budget*. Having passed the most tests with 95% success, the Rafale is also available with an industrial partnership that affects the entire plane itself but also the range of business jets "Falcon", the engine manufacturer SNECMA / CFM International and all related equipment...



Avions de combat : constructeurs sous pression ! : avia news


There are only 2 reasons that makes the EF important in MMRCA:

1) the industral and political benefits, since the EF consortium and the partners are more desperate at the moment than the French.

2) to put pressure on the French to lower the costs, or provide us with more advantages.


The capabilities of the EF as a fighter on the other side are only secondary, because it is clearly less capable then Rafale today and would need a lot of money and time from us to be useful. If we have both and they are so desperate to offer us a deal that we can't deny, we take the EF. Otherwise it will only be used to get point 2.


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## sancho

ramu said:


> Are you for a minute saying the Euro fighters promoters are more broke than France ?



Apart of Germany, yes they are more broke, but even Germany is cutting their defence budget and cancelling, or at least trying to sell their last order of 37 EFs to us. The situation in UK is even worse, they will cut the T3B order and want to sell most of the T1s, because they are too expensive to upgrade and operate. Italy already cancelled the T3B and Spain will just follow. UK and ITA will buy F35 instead, Germany reduced their fleet and already starts new developments in the UAV sector, Spain will probably reduce the order and might opt for some F35Bs for their carriers and to replace the F18 Hornets later.




ramu said:


> India will be a development partner if it chooses the Euro fighter



No, we will only be a production partner, because there is hardly anything left to develop, or to participate. The TVC for example is developed for nearly a decade now, but no customer wants to pay for the integration, so even if we choose EF and to fund this tech, we will only pay money, not develop anything. The only part that would include real R&D is the Sea Typhoon, that's why they are offering us to lead the development, because we would have a reason to be called a real partner and they benefit from the upgrades we fund like CFTs, TVC, integration of anti ship or cruise missiles...
Remember, the EF partners are only interested in 20% of the upgrades that are offered in MMRCA, while we have to fund the rest if we go for EF and while the Rafale already has this funded and available.




ramu said:


> If we have ToT and license to manufacture spares, we are dependent on none. And in war times, if we have the technology, we wont be waiting for a green signal to manufacture spares ourselves.



Ramu, think about it logically! If that would be true and we produce the MKI nearly completelly in India now, why is there an issue about Russian spare supply now? Why are we searching for western suppliers for several of the spares for Russian aircrafts?
ToT allows us to produce lets say the airframe, or the engine of MKI/MMRCA in India, so won't have "much" problems with these things in war times, but still many minor parts of the fighter have to be bought from the supplier country or will only be assembled in India. We will never get 100% ToT of anything, especially not from critical parts and especially not from the US, but the Europeans are more open in this area and that's why we can benefit much from this deal, even if it is not 100% ToT. Btw, we don't produce the weapons of MMRCA fighters in India, so in war times we are dependent on approval of these countries, but even in peace time the negotiations in terms of upgrades will be more difficult when 4 different partners (Austria and S. Arabia are unimportant) have to agree and find a common upgrade solution. The best example for this is the T3A agreement between the 4 partner countries, which was fixed 2 or 3 years ago, but still they didn't find a common agreement of what this upgrade really will include in terms of new capabilities. So far ONLY, Paveway IV LGBs and METEOR missile will be new, while these EFs will be able to add AESA, TVC, CFTs, or more weapons later, if somebody (India) funds the final development/integration. 
Last year we heared RAF officials that they expected a decison about integration of Brimstone, or Storm Shadow by early this year, but now with even further cuts and the impressive performance of Tornado and drones in Afghanistan and Libya, they are changing their strategies and wants to keep the Tornado in service as long as possible, since it can use these weapons anyway, while EF takes over the supporting role (escorts + offering additional LGBs), rather than to replace the Tornados with fully capable EFs. At the current situation, it is more likely that they will buy more drones/co-develop the Telemos drone with Dassault and wait for the F35, rather than buying EFs.


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## sancho

Raje amar said:


> if it includes the spares for the lifetime with the wepons, well i supose its not that bad.
> also we are discussing from the start of the fascility setup for maintenance & inetial training of the technicians & pilots
> 
> but if it excludes all of this i will say leave all this & go for Gripan NG $20 Bil is a huge amount.



Look at it this way (figures selected just as an example!), the $20 billions are for one of the most capable fighters available today + the most industrial benefits we can get, which will also get up to $10 billions in return in terms of offets.
Gripen might cost only $10 billions, but we also get only $5 billions in return and since Saab & Sweden can't provide similar ToT offers, our industry will get only very limited benefit in return.
The point is, we are not paying only for a fighter, but for a package of advantages, that's why the higher costs, means also higher benefits in return and that's why not a single of those cheap fighters were shortlisted, while the 2 most expensive one were. MoD simply wants more than just a fighter for IAF and they are ready to pay more too, the only question is, who has the best package on offer for us?

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## sancho

*Some news updates:*



> *Cool HAL waits for the big winner*
> 
> BANGALORE:&#65533; Plane-maker Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) chose not to jump into the MMRCA (Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft) madness on Friday, even as aviation pundits world over tracked every bit of news on the opening of a bumper commercial bid...
> 
> ...*First, we will make few planes from a semi-knocked-down kit, then from completely knocked-down kit and finally from absolute raw material phase. Once we are clear with the rules of the game, we will start parallel activities,* HAL sources said.
> 
> When asked how significant will be the MMRCA project to HAL, the official said: It will be a huge learning curve for us as we lay our hands on the next-level of fighter jet. *It will also give us some learning points for our Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) project. We will be able to extrapolate the MMRCA knowledge to FGFA*. Definitely it is an exciting prospect to get involved with Western aircraft technology.



Cool HAL waits for the big winner - southindia - Karnataka - ibnlive





> *MMRCA deal: Europe versus France contest begins for world's biggest combat aircrafts*
> 
> NEW DELHI: Now, battle-lines for the Europe versus France contest, after elimination of US and Russia in earlier rounds, have been clearly drawn. India on Friday opened the financial bids of the two fighters left in the fray for the world's biggest combat aircraft deal, but promptly declared it would take at least two-three weeks to declare the eventual winner since tons of data had to be computed...
> 
> ...Sources, however, said *the "unit flyaway cost*" or "direct acquisition cost" *of each Eurofighter Typhoon was "higher" than the French Rafale fighter*, both of which fall in the $80-$110 million bracket, much costlier than the American, Russian and Swedish jets earlier eliminated after exhaustive technical evaluation by IAF pilots.
> 
> *But the unit flyaway cost will not be the only factor to determine the lowest bidder (L-1). The MoD will also take into account "life-cycle costs" or the cost of operating the fighters over a 40-year period, with 6,000 hours of flying.*
> 
> Besides, there are *costs of the transfer of technology (ToT)* since the first 18 jets will be bought from abroad in a flyaway condition, while the rest 108 will be manufactured in India, under licence, by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd...



MMRCA deal: Europe versus France contest begins for world's biggest combat aircrafts - Times Of India


So:

- same licence production procedure like we have it with MKI
- there is a chance to see Rafale/EF techs on FGFA
- Rafale is cheaper per unit than EF (figures confirms what I said as well)
- but not the cheapest unit cost will decide who wins, but the cheapest package cost

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## kaykay

so sancho by any means can we compare life cycle cost of both aircrafts....i mean is there any link or something from their respective companies...i tried but couldn't found.


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## sancho

kaykay said:


> so sancho by any means can we compare life cycle cost of both aircrafts....i mean is there any link or something from their respective companies...i tried but couldn't found.



Sadly not, because too many things will be included in this costs and any air force has different ways to calculate it. The best "hint" are statements about the operational costs per h for example, but even that is only a "hint" for us.
The Swiss evaluation found out that the Rafale is cheaper per unit and cheaper to operate, the Libyan conflict showed that Rafale is as cheap, or cheaper to operate than Mirage 2000s (single engine!), while EF turned out to be more costly than the Tornados, which could also be a reason why they returned home earlier, besides the limitations in multi role capabilities of course.

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## ptltejas

is it possible that any winner will also offer their Avionics EW suit(spectra-incase rafale choose) for LCA


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## ptltejas

Many times we loss Good Products just because on allegation of the Corruption. the howitzer of Boforce is very good but it denied on allegation of corruption. we might say no to the company did we say no to courtry on allegation of corruption for T 90 instead arjun. It is good to be more serious and mature on this aspect. The Safety and defence of country must be on top, rather corruption etc. companies definetely offer it or do it but we concern about best product. certainly we may have grievance for corruption but we can not deny weapon. Its good maturity. The Security and defence should be always first.


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## sancho

ptltejas said:


> is it possible that any winner will also offer their Avionics EW suit(spectra-incase rafale choose) for LCA



In theory yes, practically it depends on how we integrate the systems into LCA. SPECTRA systems on Rafale are integrated into the pod on the tail fin and all around the airframe. Similarly, the EF has ECM/ESM pods at the wingtips and sensors all around the airframe, but I think more like is that such systems would be integrated on FGFA, since it is meant to be the most capable fighter, while LCA is only the low end addition and should be cost-effective mainly.


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## sancho

> *Rafale and Eurofighter side by side in India*
> 
> Commercial offerings of both companies would be very close to each other. Objective: to sell 126 fighter jets in New Delhi.
> 
> Manufacturers of both fighters still competing to equip the 126 aircraft the Indian Air Force (Air Force), Rafale ( Dassault Aviation ) and Eurofighter ( EADS , BAE Systems and Italy's Finmeccanica), engage one great commercial battle to reign in the Indian skies. According to several sources, offers of Dassault Aviation and the European consortium would be very close to each other. What is already a big surprise, the Rafale is generally much cheaper (10% to 15% on average) than the Eurofighter in previous tenders where they were competing one against the other.
> 
> The three industrial partners in the Eurofighter program would therefore have made great efforts on the price of the unit had to stay competitive with the Rafale aircraft much lighter. "*They have accepted the monstrous sacrifices*," says one industry. "The two manufacturers will see much clearer at the end of the week after a week of work and comparison of bids," said another industry sector interviewed by "The Tribune" (see below) . *However, the Rafale custody, if the commercial offerings are really close, an advantage at the operational and technical. Testing of the Indian Air Force have placed in front of the Eurofighter*...



Google Übersetzer


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## SpArK



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## SpArK

France Determined To Seal First Rafale Export

PARIS - *France hopes to clinch a badly needed deal with the United Arab Emirates (UAE) for the sale of 60 Rafale fighter jets as part of a longstanding export drive, although an announcement was not expected at the Dubai Air Show, which opens Nov. 13.
*
The French Air Force will fly a Rafale fighter at the air show as part of the official support campaign. Gen. Jean-Paul Palomeros, the Air Force chief-of-staff, also was due to visit the exhibition, looking to maintain the close military-to-military ties seen as essential in winning a foreign arms contract.

An announcement of a deal was not expected as talks are still going on, and if the UAE were to reach an agreement, Abu Dhabi would want to make the announcement because that is where the UAE seat of government is located.

*Domestic budget cuts mean the French government and industry must find foreign buyers for the Rafale, and the UAE is seen as the closest to a signing. Negotiations are continuing between UAE officials and France, although price has been a sticking point.
*

UAE officials had reached out to Lockheed Martin for information on the F-16 as an initial $10 billion tag for the Rafale caused price resistance.

*Flying in the Libyan operations, the Rafale showed the 7.5-ton thrust of the Snecma M88 engine did not need to be uprated to 9 tons as previously requested by the UAE, according to French Defense Minister Gérard Longuet
*
That helped trim development costs on an eventual UAE purchase. The UAE has also asked for a more powerful radar.

The Rafale's operations in the Libya campaign are seen as a success story by the French military.

*"Without hesitation, we're happy with the Rafale's capabilities," an Air Force spokesman said. "The multirole capabilities were tested and validated."
*

The availability rate averaged around 94 percent, an exceptionally high level for this generation of fighter aircraft, he said.

*Besides delivering a range of munitions, as expected, the Air Force was pleased with the Reco NG reconnaissance pod, and the Rafale's ability to refuel inflight in night, day and bad weather conditions.
*

*The Rafale deployed in all configurations - air superiority, ground support and reconnaissance, a spokesman for the chief of the Defense Staff said. The munitions included GBU glide bombs for close support, stand off with the Armement Air-Sol Modulaire (AASM), and long-range penetration with the Scalp cruise missile, he said.
*
The Rafale has flown for years in Afghanistan, but the range of missions was wider in Libya, where the aircraft showed its interoperability with the airborne warning and control systems aircraft.

France deployed nearly 20 Rafales in Libya, including flying 10 Navy fighters from the Charles de Gaulle carrier, and French Air Force units from air bases in France, Greece and Italy.

*Any sale of the Rafale also opens up sales opportunities for missile maker MBDA, which would offer the long-range Meteor and anti-armor Brimstone weapons.
*

One component of the sale of the Rafale would be resolving what the *UAE will do with its fleet of Mirage 2000-9 fighters. France has offered to buy back these aircraft and find buyers for them.*

The Rafale is seen as the flagship of French military aircraft technology, bringing together Dassault, Safran's Snecma and electronics maker Thales, and a host of suppliers.

Bill McHenry, Lockheed Martin's F-16 business development director, said his company is talking to the UAE about additional aircraft purchases.

"Yes, they have been looking at additional airplanes for their fleet and some modernization of their airplanes," he said. However, the additional aircraft purchases would go hand-in-hand with the UAE's F-16 fleet modernization plans, McHenry said. Because aircraft would have to be taken out of service for upgrades, he said, the UAE is looking at additional planes to maintain a level force strength.

Saab's Gripen sales effort in the region is focused on Qatar, where the company, like many of its rivals, responded in mid-2010 to a request for information for a new fighter.

Little has been heard from the Qataris since the bids were submitted more than 15 months ago, with the Arab Spring and the Libyan conflict bringing progress to a standstill.

Magnus Olsson, Saab's regional director for Gripen exports, said that while they continue to monitor developments in the area, the focus of their major campaigns lies elsewhere.

While the Middle East is not a key area for Gripen at the moment, interest could strengthen on the back of efforts by Saab to sell its airborne early warning aircraft locally.

Eurofighter's immediate attention is focused on Japan and India rather than the gulf, with the major competitions the Typhoon is embroiled in appearing to be nearing a conclusion in both countries.

But with many of the gulf's air forces in the throes of modernizing, Typhoon's battle for supremacy in the region's fighter market continues unabated, primarily against Rafale and U.S. rivals F/A-18 and F-16.

The Typhoon, which like the Rafale acquitted itself well in the recent Libyan campaign, is being delivered to the Saudis as part of a massive 72-aircraft order that has the potential to be expanded at a later date.

In Oman, long-running negotiations with Eurofighter partner BAE Systems about buying Typhoons rumble on with issues, including the standard of aircraft, support and late delivery of offshore patrol vessels to the gulf nation's Navy, all having slowed a conclusion to the deal.

France Determined To Seal First Rafale Export - Defense News


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## INDIAN SOLDIER

*108 MMRCAS will roll out from Bangalore; cool HAL waits for the big winner*

Bangalore: Plane-maker Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) chose not to jump into the MMRCA madness, even as aviation pundits world over are tracking every bit of news on the opening of a bumper commercial bid. While the Ministry of Defence officials scanned macro price points along with Typhoon (Eurofighter) and Rafale (Dassault) representatives in Delhi, senior officials of HAL remained cool as a cucumber. They probably knew, who ever bags the $10.4 b order, they will be the biggest winner.
Out of the 126 combat MMRCA fighters, HAL will manufacture 108 aircraft (make category) at the Aircraft Division in Bangalore, while the first 18 (buy category) will come in a fly-away condition from the hangars of the winner. &#8220;First we will make few planes from a semi-knocked-down kit, then from completely knocked-down kit and finally from absolute raw material phase. Once, we are clear with the rules of the game, we will start parallel activities,&#8221; HAL sources said.
When asked how significant will be the MMRCA project to HAL, the official said: &#8220;It will be a huge learning curve for us as we lay our hands on the next-level of fighter jet. It will also give us some learning points for our Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) project. We will be able to extrapolate the MMRCA knowledge to FGFA. Definitely it is an exciting prospect to get involved with Western aircraft technology.&#8221;
Currently HAL&#8217;s Hawk production line is abuzz with activities and they are hoping to complete the delivery of the remaining 15 aircraft (out of a total 42 made under licence) by the end of 2011-2012. &#8220;This line will be busy for couple of years more as we have an additional order of 57 aircraft. So, MMRCA will be a separate production line, with likely additional manpower,&#8221; sources said. HAL&#8217;s Engine Division in Bangalore will also play a key role in the MMRCA project.
While it is very sketchy to predict when the Indian Air Force will get the first HAL-built MMRCA, the company is seeing this as an opportunity to raise the bar of professional work sphere. &#8221;We need to possibly empower our managers and encourage them to take risks fearlessly. Risk-taking and ability to take swift decisions are vital when we work on a massive project like MMRCA,&#8221; the official said.


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## SpArK

surprise o surprise. deccan herald claims eurofighter unit cost cheaper than Rafale..



Fighter deal suspense continues



Termed the mother of all defence deals, the procurement of 126 multi-billion dollar medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) has taken a new shape and India may well end up with the newer and more advanced aircraft from the two companies left in the race.

The Ministry of Defence (MoD) has shortlisted European Consortium EADS&#8217; Eurofighter and French firm Dassault&#8217;s Rafale for the estimated $10.4 billion deal, disqualifying the other contenders.

The MoD, on Friday last, opened the commercial bids of the two contenders clearing way for further negotiations before it announces the lowest bidder. *According to well-placed sources, EADS, which is promoting the more advanced and thereby more expensive aircraft is said to have quoted a lower price &#8220;unit flyaway cost.&#8221;*

&#8220;This comes as a contradiction to all the assessments made in the past that Eurofighter is costly and that India might not purchase it due to cost pressures,&#8221; a source said.

The two aircraft were, according to Air Commodore B&#8200;R Krishna, Commandant, Aircraft and Systems Testing Establishment, were &#8220;shortlisted after they complied with the 600-odd parameters laid down in the Air Staff Qualitative Requirements.&#8221; Sources, while adding that though there was not too much of a difference between the two quotes, however said:&#8200;&#8220;This shows how important the deal is for countries involved in the promotion of the aircraft and with the European economy not exactly in a comfortable position, such deals have become more dearer.&#8221;

The vendors refused to comment on the matter as there is confidentiality agreement. Speaking to Deccan Herald, MoD spokesperson Sitanshu Kar, without confirming anything said:&#8200;&#8220;...This is just the unit cost, there is more work left before one could rejoice or feel otherwise. We have some of our best personnel looking into the matter and the L-1 could be announced in another six to eight weeks.&#8221;

The MoD is busy with benchmarking and standardisation of costs, so that there are common parameters for the bidders. Kar said a Joint Director rank official from the Defence Accounts Department will head the deliberation of costs.

Given that India is, for the first time going to consider more than just the direct acquisition costs before selecting the lowest bidder, the MoD will also evaluate the life-cycle costs (keeping in mind a time span of 40 years of operation), cost of other aspects like the electronic warfare equipment, avionics et al.

And considering that the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited will manufacture the selected aircraft in the future, transfer of technology costs will also be considered.


Fighter deal suspense continues

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## SpArK

surprise o surprise. deccan herald claims eurofighter unit cost cheaper than Rafale..



Fighter deal suspense continues



Termed the mother of all defence deals, the procurement of 126 multi-billion dollar medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) has taken a new shape and India may well end up with the newer and more advanced aircraft from the two companies left in the race.

The Ministry of Defence (MoD) has shortlisted European Consortium EADS&#8217; Eurofighter and French firm Dassault&#8217;s Rafale for the estimated $10.4 billion deal, disqualifying the other contenders.

The MoD, on Friday last, opened the commercial bids of the two contenders clearing way for further negotiations before it announces the lowest bidder. *According to well-placed sources, EADS, which is promoting the more advanced and thereby more expensive aircraft is said to have quoted a lower price &#8220;unit flyaway cost.&#8221;*

&#8220;This comes as a contradiction to all the assessments made in the past that Eurofighter is costly and that India might not purchase it due to cost pressures,&#8221; a source said.

The two aircraft were, according to Air Commodore B&#8200;R Krishna, Commandant, Aircraft and Systems Testing Establishment, were &#8220;shortlisted after they complied with the 600-odd parameters laid down in the Air Staff Qualitative Requirements.&#8221; Sources, while adding that though there was not too much of a difference between the two quotes, however said:&#8200;&#8220;This shows how important the deal is for countries involved in the promotion of the aircraft and with the European economy not exactly in a comfortable position, such deals have become more dearer.&#8221;

The vendors refused to comment on the matter as there is confidentiality agreement. Speaking to Deccan Herald, MoD spokesperson Sitanshu Kar, without confirming anything said:&#8200;&#8220;...This is just the unit cost, there is more work left before one could rejoice or feel otherwise. We have some of our best personnel looking into the matter and the L-1 could be announced in another six to eight weeks.&#8221;

The MoD is busy with benchmarking and standardisation of costs, so that there are common parameters for the bidders. Kar said a Joint Director rank official from the Defence Accounts Department will head the deliberation of costs.

Given that India is, for the first time going to consider more than just the direct acquisition costs before selecting the lowest bidder, the MoD will also evaluate the life-cycle costs (keeping in mind a time span of 40 years of operation), cost of other aspects like the electronic warfare equipment, avionics et al.

And considering that the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited will manufacture the selected aircraft in the future, transfer of technology costs will also be considered.


Fighter deal suspense continues

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## indushek

SpArK said:


> surprise o surprise. deccan herald claims eurofighter unit cost cheaper than Rafale..
> 
> 
> 
> Fighter deal suspense continues
> 
> 
> 
> Termed the mother of all defence deals, the procurement of 126 multi-billion dollar medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) has taken a new shape and India may well end up with the newer and more advanced aircraft from the two companies left in the race.
> 
> The Ministry of Defence (MoD) has shortlisted European Consortium EADS&#8217; Eurofighter and French firm Dassault&#8217;s Rafale for the estimated $10.4 billion deal, disqualifying the other contenders.
> 
> The MoD, on Friday last, opened the commercial bids of the two contenders clearing way for further negotiations before it announces the lowest bidder. *According to well-placed sources, EADS, which is promoting the more advanced and thereby more expensive aircraft is said to have quoted a lower price &#8220;unit flyaway cost.&#8221;*
> 
> &#8220;This comes as a contradiction to all the assessments made in the past that Eurofighter is costly and that India might not purchase it due to cost pressures,&#8221; a source said.
> 
> The two aircraft were, according to Air Commodore B&#8200;R Krishna, Commandant, Aircraft and Systems Testing Establishment, were &#8220;shortlisted after they complied with the 600-odd parameters laid down in the Air Staff Qualitative Requirements.&#8221; Sources, while adding that though there was not too much of a difference between the two quotes, however said:&#8200;&#8220;This shows how important the deal is for countries involved in the promotion of the aircraft and with the European economy not exactly in a comfortable position, such deals have become more dearer.&#8221;
> 
> The vendors refused to comment on the matter as there is confidentiality agreement. Speaking to Deccan Herald, MoD spokesperson Sitanshu Kar, without confirming anything said:&#8200;&#8220;...This is just the unit cost, there is more work left before one could rejoice or feel otherwise. We have some of our best personnel looking into the matter and the L-1 could be announced in another six to eight weeks.&#8221;
> 
> The MoD is busy with benchmarking and standardisation of costs, so that there are common parameters for the bidders. Kar said a Joint Director rank official from the Defence Accounts Department will head the deliberation of costs.
> 
> Given that India is, for the first time going to consider more than just the direct acquisition costs before selecting the lowest bidder, the MoD will also evaluate the life-cycle costs (keeping in mind a time span of 40 years of operation), cost of other aspects like the electronic warfare equipment, avionics et al.
> 
> And considering that the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited will manufacture the selected aircraft in the future, transfer of technology costs will also be considered.
> 
> 
> Fighter deal suspense continues



What Benny u were betting on the wrong horse for this long ??

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## Abingdonboy

^^^^ lol, another "unamed source" was quoted as saying the exact opposite- the Rafele had emerged cheaper. The "unamed source" business is just BS trying to be sold off as credible news. What is the point in reporting somthing as fact if you can't independently verify the facts. Everyone has vested interests and these sort of reports help fools look credible.


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## ptltejas

when drdo goong to test Nirbhay. too much delay


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## Contract Killer

indushek said:


> What Benny u were betting on the wrong horse for this long ??



I have been saying this since long............ EF is going to win. Just wait n watch.


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## Doctor09

Contract Killer said:


> I have been saying this since long............ EF is going to win. Just wait n watch.


 
yar kabi Rafale aur kabi EF yeah cheating hai ... jab aik final hu gaya tu mujhey bata daina


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## SpArK

Dassault Rafale- Unit price: about $ 150 million.



EADS Eurofighter Typhoon-Unit price: about $ 100 million.





Gripen, Rafale ou Eurofighter: quel avion remplacera le Tiger?


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## danger007

SpArK said:


> Dassault Rafale- Unit price: about $ 150 million.
> 
> 
> 
> EADS Eurofighter Typhoon-Unit price: about $ 100 million.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gripen, Rafale ou Eurofighter: quel avion remplacera le Tiger?



$150 million wow too costly......


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## Tangent

SpArK said:


> Dassault Rafale- Unit price: about $ 150 million.
> 
> 
> 
> EADS Eurofighter Typhoon-Unit price: about $ 100 million.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gripen, Rafale ou Eurofighter: quel avion remplacera le Tiger?



According to one news article posted in the forum the difference in the unit price of both the planes is less than 5%.


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## ramu

indushek said:


> What Benny u were betting on the wrong horse for this long ??



Ha ha ... now that Euro Fighter is better and on top of it cost effective ... I will stick my neck out and call EF for IAF! Kind of rhymes


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## Shadow_Hunter

ptltejas said:


> when drdo goong to test Nirbhay. too much delay



not before 2012


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## SpArK




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## deepakclaw

Late december the day before the MMRCA winner will be anounced.... bright morning some where in india.

TOP BRASS 1: AAAAAAAAhhhhhhhhhhhhhh................
TOP BRASS 1 wife: what... what happpened.
TOP BRASS 1:NN.N.nothing honey its just.....today is the day u know... the last...
TOP BRASS 1 wife : what ??? u never told me u r gona retire today(slight fAINT)
TOP BRASS 1: Hey thats not it.... it just today ...... hmm today is the last day before the mmrca winner is anounced.....
TOP BRASS 1 wife: OMG .. im...im so sorry honney ... it must be hard for u.
TOP BRASS 1: yes its all over...(tears) i.. i belived some how that it would extend to another decade or so but.. but...
TOP BRASS 1 wife: brace ur self honey.. every thing has to end one day or another..
TOP BRASS 1:(starring at the wall) so ....... no more free flights, no more 7 star rooms, no more star buffet, no more holidays in the name of official meeting....and and nooo more of my favourite free Rose tea and assorted swiss biscutes while discussing........ ohhhu ohu ...godddd what have i done to u ... why everything has to end so soon.....
TOP BRASS 1 wife: honey.....
door bell(ding dong) TOP BRASS 1 wife : comming...Oh its u brass 2s wife & brass 3s wife... come on in.
TOP BRASS 1: (wiping his tears) hey welcome what a sudden surprise...whats the matter.
TOP BRASS 2s wife : some thing bad happened , its our husbands..... they they gone mad for the past 2 days.......please help us...
TOP BRASS 1:what happened.
TOP BRASS 3s wife: it .. jsut they both ..... chanting strange stuffs from yesterday ,,,,, they are no themselves now.. what to do we have no idea..... please help us.
TOP BRASS 1 wife: what r they chanting.
TOP BRASS 2s wife: "buiscuts, tea, buffer, holiday, free air ride,,,,, taj , hilton, oberoi ,, and other random stuffff , we dont know what that means.????
TOP BRASS 1 & TOP BRASS 1 wife: (sigh) 
LATER THAT NIGHT: phone(tring tring)
TOP BRASS 1: who is it 
chief TOP BRASS : it me brass 1.......
TOP BRASS 1: uh hh sir its u... what happened why calling so late.
chief TOP BRASS :something serious ha happened today... and brass 2 and 3 are on the phone line tooo.
TOP BRASS 2:what happened sir?????????????/
chief TOP BRASS: it.. just.... SAAB has got stay order from delhi high court ... stating the mmrca selection is biased and need investigation....
(ALL FOUR OF THEM THOUGHT-(B1,2,3&CHIEF))
"I...I.....ITS INDIAN JUDICIAL SYSTEM WE ARE TALKING ABOUT ....... THEN... THEN......ANOTHER 30 TO 40 YEARS OF TRIAL. THEN THAT MEANS......." 
TOP BRASS 1:UUUUUOOOOHHHHHH.... YEAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
TOP BRASS 2:YEPPEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
TOP BRASS 3:IS IT FOR REAL THANK U ...THANK U.....
CHIEF TOP BRASS: YES YES...... GOD UR GREAT............................
(SOME WHERE IN A REMOTE AIR BASE - INDIA)
SOILDER 1starring at the sky)
SOILDER 2: hey man what r u thinking....
SOILDER 1:it just that..... ive been thinking of the day ................when i actually dont have to worry abt leaving my family when i sit in the cockpit... u know .....the mmrC..............(phone-tring tring)- "yes its soilder 1"
COMAND POST: there is mig 21 gone missing we lost contact... WE BELIVE IT SHOULD BE CLOSRE TO U ...PLE........... 
BOOOOOOOOM-- HUGE FLASH (raising flames)......jet crash near by....
SOILDER 1: SIR I THINK IVE SPOTTED IT.................

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NO OFFENCE ON ANY ONE JUST FOR FUN, NOTHING MORE.

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## fast

India fighter jet deal soars to $20bn - FT.com

Source: Financial Times

An Indian contract to buy 126 fighter jets from one of two European bidders could be worth more than $20bn, almost double the original estimate, according to government officials.

The defence ministry revised up its initial $11bn estimate after opening bids on Friday from the Eurofighter Typhoon consortium and Frances Dassault, the maker of the Rafale aircraft, a ministry official told the Financial Times.


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## WAQAS119

It will sour further. Wait and see


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## tjpf

WAQAS119 said:


> It will sour further. Wait and see



don't worry we got money to pay for it.


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## bubble123

> An Indian contract to buy 126 fighter jets from one of two European bidders *could* be worth more than $20bn, almost double the original estimate, according to government officials.
> 
> The defence ministry revised up its initial $11bn estimate after opening bids on Friday from the Eurofighter Typhoon consortium and France&#8217;s Dassault, the maker of the Rafale aircraft, a ministry official told the Financial Times.



Misleading title the article says COULD.


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## Zabaniyah

> *MoD Begins Calculations to evaluate Life Cycle Cost of aircrafts for MMRCA *
> 
> Written by Ganesh, Arjun
> Wednesday, 09 November 2011
> 
> New Delhi: The Indian Defence Ministry has initiated the process of calculation of the Life Cycle Cost (LCC) of the two shortlisted aircrafts - the Eurofighter and Dassault Rafale - in order to determine the lowest bidder and the ultimate winner of the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) deal.
> 
> On November 4th, commercial bids from the two firms were opened in the presence of their representatives, by the Contracts Negotiation Committee of the Defence Ministry. Though both firms were notified about the cost per unit of each aircraft, confidentiality clauses prevent the figures from being revealed.
> According to sources, the per unit cost of the Dassault Rafale is understood to be around 5 percent lower than the Eurofighter. However the final decision will be made on the basis of Life Cycle Cost of these aircrafts, which would be operated for around 40 years or 6,000 hours. The offset and technology transfer proposals made by the firms may also influence the decision.
> 
> The ultimate winner is expected to be revealed in six to eight weeks, after which final commercial negotiations will commence with the lowest bidder.
> 
> The Government had earmarked Rs 42,000 crore for the deal in 2007. According to officials, the funds can be increased significantly if required.
> 
> The offset clause in the tender requires the winner to reinvest 50 percent of the deal amount in the Indian defence industry. The Defence Acquisitions Council (DAC) had approved the offset proposals of the Eurofighter Typhoon and the Dassault Rafale on October 7.



Source: MACHINIST - MoD Begins Calculations to evaluate Life Cycle Cost of aircrafts for MMRCA


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## Saber slayer

WAQAS119 said:


> It will sour further. Wait and see


 
so worried about INDIA. You don't have wait for watching our buying capacity.

---------- Post added at 03:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:27 PM ----------




bubble123 said:


> Misleading title the article says COULD.


 
they can't read when they are so urgent to tease indian.


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## SpArK

Cool that means more than 10 billion will be invested back to India by these companies as the deal stipulates

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## peaceful

tjpf said:


> don't worry we got money to pay for it.



indeed. 

We at Chinese forum always wonder how india can be that rich, I mean if you look, C-17 deal is followed by C-130 deal, MMRCA project and T-50 "joint" development, T-90 will be brought in at the scale of thousands, aircraft carrier and Mig-29 from Russia. 

You know, this is the definitation of being rich, on the other hand, we poor Chinese build out own Y-20, improved our Y-8 now calling it Y-9, we had to keep modernize our J-10B to keep it up with your MMRCA, our J-20 project will take probably another 7-8 years to complete no "joint" helping hand, Type-99A2 is damn expensive, only hundreds will be built, our aircraft carriers are still being planned, J-15 is still a prototype. 

I would say it is a huge difference & gap, india is clearly having a up hand -- poor Chinese building everything at home, indians buying from everywhere.


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## vikrams

We will pay 30 billion, but give me the best Aircraft for the IAF pilots.


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## RockyX

peaceful said:


> indeed.
> 
> We at Chinese forum always wonder how india can be that rich, I mean if you look, C-17 deal is followed by C-130 deal, MMRCA project and T-50 "joint" development, T-90 will be brought in at the scale of thousands, aircraft carrier and Mig-29 from Russia.
> 
> You know, this is the definitation of being rich, on the other hand, we poor Chinese build out own Y-20, improved our Y-8 now calling it Y-9, we had to keep modernize our J-10B to keep it up with your MMRCA, our J-20 project will take probably another 7-8 years to complete no "joint" helping hand, Type-99A2 is damn expensive, only hundreds will be built, our aircraft carriers are still being planned, J-15 is still a prototype.
> 
> I would say it is a huge difference & gap, india is clearly having a up hand -- poor Chinese building everything at home, indians buying from everywhere.



China has defence budget around 80-100 Bn $, more than double than us. Where all money goes ? I know most of countries like Europe, U.S. and Russia won't sell high-tech weapons/jets to Chindue to copy-paste a but to be very frank after seeing your inventory, I feel too much of money wasted or may be it's not known or big corruption taking place.

10 years and 200 bn $ were spent by China for Airforce and you don't even have single 4.5th generation aircraft like Super Hornet, Rafale or Typhoon. Even, Su 30 you are operating are not latest one like MKI and copied one too is based on Su-27 only.

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## rockstarIN

peaceful said:


> indeed.
> 
> We at Chinese forum always wonder how india can be that rich, I mean if you look, C-17 deal is followed by C-130 deal, MMRCA project and T-50 "joint" development, T-90 will be brought in at the scale of thousands, aircraft carrier and Mig-29 from Russia.
> 
> You know, this is the definitation of being rich, on the other hand, we poor Chinese build out own Y-20, improved our Y-8 now calling it Y-9, we had to keep modernize our J-10B to keep it up with your MMRCA, our J-20 project will take probably another 7-8 years to complete no "joint" helping hand, Type-99A2 is damn expensive, only hundreds will be built, our aircraft carriers are still being planned, J-15 is still a prototype.
> 
> I would say it is a huge difference & gap, india is clearly having a up hand -- poor Chinese building everything at home, indians buying from everywhere.



Best of luck with that..we are rich and our spend is only 2%.


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## Saber slayer

peaceful said:


> indeed.
> 
> We at Chinese forum always wonder how india can be that rich, I mean if you look, C-17 deal is followed by C-130 deal, MMRCA project and T-50 "joint" development, T-90 will be brought in at the scale of thousands, aircraft carrier and Mig-29 from Russia.
> 
> You know, this is the definitation of being rich, on the other hand, we poor Chinese build out own Y-20, improved our Y-8 now calling it Y-9, we had to keep modernize our J-10B to keep it up with your MMRCA, our J-20 project will take probably another 7-8 years to complete no "joint" helping hand, Type-99A2 is damn expensive, only hundreds will be built, our aircraft carriers are still being planned, J-15 is still a prototype.
> 
> I would say it is a huge difference & gap, india is clearly having a up hand -- poor Chinese building everything at home, indians buying from everywhere.


 
Don't forget to pay for copyrights to original producer. I am advicing you because you used to forget that(J-5,J-6,J-7............ etc etc )


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## peaceful

rockstar said:


> Best of luck with that..we are rich and our spend is only 2%.



you can spend whatever you want. 

With a laughable GPD per capita of $1000, you don't have much to spend to start with.

---------- Post added at 03:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:17 PM ----------




Saber slayer said:


> Don't forget to pay for copyrights to original producer. I am advicing you because you used to forget that(J-5,J-6,J-7............ etc etc )



india soldiers should all hold a banner in the coming wars with China "You Chinese are only allowed to kill me by using licensed weapons. ".

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## Varad

SpArK said:


> Cool that means more than 10 billion will be invested back to India by these companies as the deal stipulates



Good point. They have to make a percentage investment in India of the total cost involved. This amount will be invested in India.


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## ramu

peaceful, Just keep this thread clean. This thread is not about China. China can do whatever they want and if you want to compare so desperately open a new thread.

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## ganesh177

peaceful said:


> india soldiers should all hold a banner in the coming wars with China "You Chinese are only allowed to kill me by using licensed weapons. ".


 
yupp, it wud be done when chinese holds the banner "You indians, its not fair to kill chinese people with baught weapons from west/rus"

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## Saber slayer

peaceful said:


> you can spend whatever you want.
> 
> With a laughable GPD per capita of $1000, you don't have much to spend to start with.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 03:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:17 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> india soldiers should all hold a banner in the coming wars with China "You Chinese are only allowed to kill me by using licensed weapons. ".


 
indian soldier don't have to bcoz chinese never take license to copy weapons.so. Indian army will wait for you possess with licensed copy, brought, indigenous weapons against uncopy righted weapons


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## Guli Danda

peaceful said:


> you can spend whatever you want.
> 
> With a laughable GPD per capita of $1000, you don't have much to spend to start with.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 03:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:17 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> india soldiers should all hold a banner in the coming wars with China "You Chinese are only allowed to kill me by using licensed weapons. ".


India per capita at $1,200 and Chinese at $4,200 not much of a difference that you can laugh at us,US with which you compete is $40,000+...see the gap?
Btw,why a Taiwanese is supporting China!?

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## Secur

whats the flyaway cost of both EF and Rafale at the moment ? from unofficial sources ofcourse


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## Vasily Zaytsev

Secur said:


> whats the flyaway cost of both EF and Rafale at the moment ? from unofficial sources ofcourse



Somewhere between 100 to 120 million $ a piece.........


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## HZR2011

so 200 MMRCA Fighters ... some at for pakstan and some for china

or it may be like....order both rafale and EF

Rafale for pakistan and EF for Chineese


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## Storm Force

The reason the cost has doubled is as follows.

MMRCA bid started in 2002 when IAF quoted $10 billion was required to buy 126 mmrca. AT THE TIME INDIAN DEFENSE BUDGET WAS AROUND $22 BILLION PER YEAR. 

9 YEARS LATER DUE TO INFLATION INDIAN DEFENSE BUDGET IS $42 BILLION and MMRCA is 420 billion deal 

ie same same as 2002 in terms of REAL COST


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## luckyyy

20bn$ means almost 158ml ..

why then they are buying mmrca when FGFA coming at 100ml...


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## gslv

it was quite expected that the procurement cost will increase to almost 15-20 billion $. nothing new.even the inflation is around 12% in India and 1$ ~ Rs49 now a days. so 10 billion dollar in 2004 equals to 13 to 15 billion dollar now a days.

---------- Post added at 09:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:41 PM ----------




luckyyy said:


> 20bn$ means almost 158ml ..
> 
> why then they are buying mmrca when FGFA coming at 100ml...


 FGFA is a heavy fighter and its period of induction will be around 2017 onwards so mmrca was necessary.


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## Hulk

For Rafale Fans, long but nice video. I wold love to see it in IAF. 
Dassault Rafale making - YouTube


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## Secur

Vasily Zaytsev said:


> Somewhere between 100 to 120 million $ a piece.........


 Off topic but i think the F35 cost around $ 150 million a pop even after all the program cost increases ...


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## fast

Secur said:


> Off topic but i think the F35 cost around $ 150 million a pop even after all the program cost increases ...



Yeah, but an Indian special would be $300 million a pop, just because they are gullible.

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## Vibs

Secur said:


> Off topic but i think the F35 cost around $ 150 million a pop even after all the program cost increases ...



f-35 was never in the contest. Had it been in it, perhaps it could have had a look in. The costs of the MMRCA contendors includes the flyaway cost and upgrade packages as well as ToT and some weapon systems. F35 is costing $156 mn already just to develop at current costs. Throw in no ToT, and weapon systems are still to be finalized.

---------- Post added at 08:03 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:02 AM ----------




fast said:


> Yeah, but an Indian special would be $300 million a pop, just because they are gullible.



COngratulations. Your first troll post on this thread false flagger.


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## joekrish

peaceful said:


> indeed.
> 
> We at Chinese forum always wonder how india can be that rich, I mean if you look, C-17 deal is followed by C-130 deal, MMRCA project and T-50 "joint" development, T-90 will be brought in at the scale of thousands, aircraft carrier and Mig-29 from Russia.
> 
> You know, this is the definitation of being rich, on the other hand, we poor Chinese build out own Y-20, improved our Y-8 now calling it Y-9, we had to keep modernize our J-10B to keep it up with your MMRCA, our J-20 project will take probably another 7-8 years to complete no "joint" helping hand, Type-99A2 is damn expensive, only hundreds will be built, our aircraft carriers are still being planned, J-15 is still a prototype.
> 
> I would say it is a huge difference & gap, india is clearly having a up hand -- poor Chinese building everything at home, indians buying from everywhere.



It is a sad state of affairs for China and it is also quite understandable that no one is willing to sell anything to,so keep the attitude to yourself and all the best.


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## golmaal

fast said:


> Yeah, but an Indian special would be $300 million a pop, just because they are gullible.



Thank you for your valuable comment..


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## fast

golmaal said:


> Thank you for your valuable comment..



I'm happy to shine light to enhance your understanding of the world.

---------- Post added at 11:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:39 PM ----------




Vibs said:


> f-35 was never in the contest. Had it been in it, perhaps it could have had a look in. The costs of the MMRCA contendors includes the flyaway cost and upgrade packages as well as ToT and some weapon systems. F35 is costing $156 mn already just to develop at current costs. Throw in no ToT, and weapon systems are still to be finalized.
> 
> COngratulations. Your first troll post on this thread false flagger.



The truth hurts, huh?


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## AMRITSAR

fast said:


> India fighter jet deal soars to $20bn - FT.com
> 
> Source: Financial Times
> 
> An Indian contract to buy 126 fighter jets from one of two European bidders could be worth more than $20bn, almost double the original estimate, according to government officials.
> 
> The defence ministry revised up its initial $11bn estimate after opening bids on Friday from the Eurofighter Typhoon consortium and Frances Dassault, the maker of the Rafale aircraft, a ministry official told the Financial Times.



It is just Lockheed Maritn and its agent US Government Propaganda.


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## Chanakyaa

fast said:


> *The truth hurts, huh*?



To Whom ?



> India has no plans as of now to either join the US-led joint strike fighter (JSF) programme or buy the F-35 `Lightning-II' fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) when it finally becomes operational.
> 
> "We cannot have two types of FGFA. We have already launched preliminary work for our FGFA after inking the $295 million preliminary design contract (PDC) with Russia last month,'' said a top defence ministry official on Friday.
> 
> This comes in the wake of comments made by a top Pentagon official, undersecretary of defence for acquisition, technology and logistics Ashton Carter, in Washington that the US was open to Indian participation in its JSF project.
> 
> Interestingly, the comments came during a function where an aggressive sales pitch was made for India to select either the American F/A-18 `Super Hornet' (Boeing) or F-16 Falcon' (Lockheed Martin) over their European rivals in the ongoing IAF's medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) contest.
> 
> The other 4.5-generation fighters in the hotly-contested race to bag the $10.4 billion MMRCA project, under which 18 jets will be bought off-the-shelf and another 108 will be manufactured in India under transfer of technology, are Eurofighter Typhoon, Swedish Gripen (Saab), French Rafale (Dassault) and Russian MiG-35 (United Aircraft Corporation).
> 
> The IAF force matrix for the coming years revolves around the 270 Sukhoi-30MKIs contracted from Russia for around $12 billion, the 126 MMRCA and 120 indigenous Tejas Light Combat Aircraft, apart from upgraded MiG-29s and Mirage-2000s.
> 
> In the decades ahead, the advanced stealth FGFA to be developed with Russia will be the mainstay of India's combat fleet. "Our FGFA will be cheaper than the F-35. Moreover, the intellectual property rights of the FGFA will equally and jointly vest on both India and Russia, with full access to the source code and the like,'' said another senior official.
> 
> With a potent mix of super-manoeuvrability and supersonic cruising ability, the "swing-role'' FGFA will of course not come cheap. The cost of designing, infrastructure build-up, prototype development and flight testing has been pegged at around $11 billion, with India and Russia chipping in with $5.5 billion each.
> 
> Over and above this, each of the 250-300 FGFA India hopes to begin inducting from 2020 onwards will cost around $100 million each. In all, India will spend upwards of $35 billion over the next two decades in its biggest-ever defence project till now.
> 
> The Indian FGFA will primarily be based on the single-seater Sukhoi T-50, the prototype of which is already flying in Russia, but will include a twin-seater version and a more powerful engine with greater thrust.
> 
> "Its complete design will be frozen by the end of the 18-month PDC. Six to seven of its prototypes should be flying by 2017. After that, there will be 2,500 hours of flight-testing over 25 months before the series production begins in 2019,'' he said.
> 
> Read more: http://www.****************/india-rejects-us-f-35-jsf-offer-31733/#ixzz1dI3xi8OQ


----------------------------------------------------------------------------


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## tvsram1992

fast said:


> The truth hurts, huh?


 
You are an example


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## Doctor09

20b $ .......is not it a huge amount for MMRCA ?


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## SEAL

I heard only 2 squadrons will be purchase in fly away condition and rest HAL will produce under ToT so considering HAL production speed and reputation in mind the cost will further shoot up in future by 5 Billion$ or maybe more.

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## tvsram1992

fox said:


> I heard only 2 squadrons will be purchase in fly away condition and rest HAL will produce under ToT so considering HAL production speed and reputation in mind the cost will further shoot up in future by 5 Billion$ or maybe more.


You are wrong dude!
Only a sqad will be delivered in fly away condition.
Remaining 6 squads will be produced locally, it can further bring the costs down.


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## SpArK

First batch from vendor.
Few from kits and assembled in HAL.
And subsequently all the components manufactured here locally.

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## marcos98

doctor09 said:


> 20b $ .......is not it a huge amount for MMRCA ?


we haz got moneys......


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## 21 Dec 2012

peaceful said:


> indeed.
> 
> We at Chinese forum always wonder how india can be that rich, I mean if you look, C-17 deal is followed by C-130 deal, MMRCA project and T-50 "joint" development, T-90 will be brought in at the scale of thousands, aircraft carrier and Mig-29 from Russia.
> 
> You know, this is the definitation of being rich, on the other hand, we poor Chinese build out own Y-20, improved our Y-8 now calling it Y-9, we had to keep modernize our J-10B to keep it up with your MMRCA, our J-20 project will take probably another 7-8 years to complete no "joint" helping hand, Type-99A2 is damn expensive, only hundreds will be built, our aircraft carriers are still being planned, J-15 is still a prototype.
> 
> I would say it is a huge difference & gap, india is clearly having a up hand -- poor *Chinese building everything at home*, indians buying from everywhere.


yeah poor chineese builidin everythin at home while those b****** russians have been copying evrything they buy frm china for the past 30 years and pitting the hard wrk of chineese scientist in ****

anyway coming back from the brief moment of trolling[for which i m srry]
i have a question for you guys
why doesnt india just scrap mmrca and go for more pakfa/fgfa
ofcourse it'll get a lot of tech and exp and weapons plus it makes for bad repu in int'l market
but shouldnt quality be priority for india as it faces a numericaly superior opponent
just my guess


----------



## kingkobra

peaceful said:


> indeed.
> 
> We at Chinese forum always wonder how india can be that rich, I mean if you look, C-17 deal is followed by C-130 deal, MMRCA project and T-50 "joint" development, T-90 will be brought in at the scale of thousands, aircraft carrier and Mig-29 from Russia.
> 
> You know, this is the definitation of being rich, on the other hand, we poor Chinese build out own Y-20, improved our Y-8 now calling it Y-9, we had to keep modernize our J-10B to keep it up with your MMRCA, our J-20 project will take probably another 7-8 years to complete no "joint" helping hand, Type-99A2 is damn expensive, only hundreds will be built, our aircraft carriers are still being planned, J-15 is still a prototype.
> 
> I would say it is a huge difference & gap, india is clearly having a up hand -- poor Chinese building everything at home, indians buying from everywhere.



all chinese have is copied stuff...you might be getting good at it but considering recent orders for engines from russia and ukraine i doubt you are not even good at that...


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## OrionHunter

I think we're misinterpreting the issue. It is $11 billion for 126 aircraft WITH AN OPTION TO BUY 63 MORE. So that could come to almost $20 billion if one also takes into account the additional infrastructure required. 

And the French Rafale is probably going to be the clear winner as it is much cheaper than the Typhoon and a single source product unlike the Eurofighter.


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## rai_kamal

21 Dec 2012 said:


> yeah poor chineese builidin everythin at home while those b****** russians have been copying evrything they buy frm china for the past 30 years and pitting the hard wrk of chineese scientist in ****
> 
> anyway coming back from the brief moment of trolling[for which i m srry]
> i have a question for you guys
> why doesnt india just scrap mmrca and go for more pakfa/fgfa
> ofcourse it'll get a lot of tech and exp and weapons plus it makes for bad repu in int'l market
> but shouldnt quality be priority for india as it faces a numericaly superior opponent
> just my guess


Our IAF wants to test some West tech,their radar tech and more..
No doubt we are involved in PAKFA and will be..


----------



## 21 Dec 2012

according to current exchange rates 
Rs 42000crs the amount sanctioned by the indian guv for mmrca equals $8.38 bn
which translates to 66.5 mil for each aircraft 
anyone care to explain how india will buy these eurocanards with weapon packages,spares and other things in 66.5mn


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## tvsram1992

21 Dec 2012 said:


> according to current exchange rates
> Rs 42000crs the amount sanctioned by the indian guv for mmrca equals $8.38 bn
> which translates to 66.5 mil for each aircraft
> anyone care to explain how india will buy these eurocanards with weapon packages,spares and other things in 66.5mn


I hope you didnt see the title clearly.
Half of the money yet to be sanctioned.


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## 21 Dec 2012

well in that case i stand corrected


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## OrionHunter

21 Dec 2012 said:


> why doesnt india just scrap mmrca and go for more pakfa/fgfa


Simple answer...The 250 odd FGFAs would be fully operationalized only by 2020-2025. And that's a long way off into the future! We can't take the risk of waiting for the FGFA. The void has to be filled up at the earliest.


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## Doctor09

marcos98 said:


> we haz got moneys......


then wait 1 more year to finalize this deal then it will reach to 30b $ then sign the contract


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## Thundersword

doctor09 said:


> then wait 1 more year to finalize this deal then it will reach to 30b $ then sign the contract


Actually thats what we would have done as half of it would be brought back to Indian industries much betta then all that money creating a bulge in politicos pockets!!! but unfortunately our force levels are falling and we need fighters urgently......else we would have considered ur suggestion


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## nalandapride

$20 billion MMRCA deal, 3 Aircraft Carriers, $1 Trillion Infrastructure projects, Bullet Trains, monorail, metro rail. Vision 2020 is being implemented very nicely.


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## Doctor09

Thundersword said:


> Actually thats what we would have done as half of it would be brought back to Indian industries much betta then all that money creating a bulge in politicos pockets!!! but unfortunately our force levels are falling and we need fighters urgently......else we would have considered ur suggestion


lets see then where it will end .......


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## SinoChallenger

RockyX said:


> China has defence budget around 80-100 Bn $, more than double than us. Where all money goes ? I know most of countries like Europe, U.S. and Russia won't sell high-tech weapons/jets to Chindue to copy-paste a but to be very frank after seeing your inventory, I feel too much of money wasted or may be it's not known or big corruption taking place.


LOL....... you don't even have a clue what China has. We are competing with the US and have recently surpassed Russia in military technology. We are on average about 20 years behind USA although in some fields even more than that.



RockyX said:


> 10 years and 200 bn $ were spent by China for Airforce and you don't even have single 4.5th generation aircraft like Super Hornet, Rafale or Typhoon.


LOL........ our 4.5 generation J-10B (with AESA) is already entering service. India will be waiting until 2018 for MMRCA to arrive at least. You seriously think Typhoon or Rafale would really get delivered on time like the vendor says?

The way the price is going up it looks like the deal will sour even further and may not even go through.








RockyX said:


> Even, Su 30 you are operating are not latest one like MKI and copied one too is based on Su-27 only.


LOL........ our indigenous J-11B is equivalent Su-35 and powered by indigenous engines WS-10. J-11B entered service in 2010.








*By the time India gets its 4.5 generation MMRCA in 2018 or later, China will have already many regiments of 5th generation J-20!*





That's why China is WAYYYYYY further ahead than a certain 3rd world country wanna-be superpower.


----------



## 21 Dec 2012

SinoChallenger said:


> LOL....... you don't even have a clue what China has. We are competing with the US and have *recently surpassed Russia in military technology*. We are on average about 20 years behind USA although in some fields even more than that.
> 
> 
> LOL........ our 4.5 generation J-10B (with AESA) is already entering service. India will be waiting until 2018 for MMRCA to arrive at least. You seriously think Typhoon or Rafale would really get delivered on time like the vendor says?
> 
> *The way the price is going up it looks like the deal will sour even further and may not even go through.
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LOL........ our* indigenous J-11B is equivalent Su-35 and powered by indigenous engines WS-10.* J-11B entered service in 2010.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *By the time India gets its 4.5 generation MMRCA in 2018 or later, China will have already many regiments of 5th generation J-20!*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's why China is WAYYYYYY further ahead than a certain 3rd world country wanna-be superpower.



So that is what you are calling j-11 and ws-10 engines now
INDIGINEOUS



> The way the price is going up it looks like the deal will sour even further and may not even go through.


and you know this how


----------



## SinoChallenger

Storm Force said:


> The reason the cost has doubled is as follows.
> 
> MMRCA bid started in 2002 when IAF quoted $10 billion was required to buy 126 mmrca. AT THE TIME INDIAN DEFENSE BUDGET WAS AROUND $22 BILLION PER YEAR.
> 
> 9 YEARS LATER DUE TO INFLATION INDIAN DEFENSE BUDGET IS $42 BILLION and MMRCA is 420 billion deal
> 
> ie same same as 2002 in terms of REAL COST


OMG! Your currency decreased in value by 50% over 9 years. That's like 6-7% per year, which is the same as India's GDP growth rate. In other words, India hasn't even grown much economically at all over the past 9 years. It's just a shrewed game of fake numbers and talking up India as a high-growth economy when it isn't at all.

Now you guys are *totally screwed* because you've been provoking China for the past 3 years, but now China is WAYYYYY further ahead than you militarily. Your economy is hardly growing and domestic unrest is increasing. You're getting shafted by arms dealers everywhere and even Russia has abandoned you in favor of Pakistan.

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## SpArK

SinoChallenger said:


> OMG! Your currency decreased in value by 50% over 9 years. That's like 6-7% per year, which is the same as India's GDP growth rate. In other words, India hasn't even grown much economically at all over the past 9 years. It's just a shrewed game of fake numbers and talking up India as a high-growth economy when it isn't at all.



OMG.. we are going to disintegrate now..


----------



## navtrek

peaceful said:


> indeed.
> 
> We at Chinese forum always wonder how india can be that rich, I mean if you look, C-17 deal is followed by C-130 deal, MMRCA project and T-50 "joint" development, T-90 will be brought in at the scale of thousands, aircraft carrier and Mig-29 from Russia.
> 
> You know, this is the definitation of being rich, on the other hand, we poor Chinese build out own Y-20, improved our Y-8 now calling it Y-9, we had to keep modernize our J-10B to keep it up with your MMRCA, our J-20 project will take probably another 7-8 years to complete no "joint" helping hand, Type-99A2 is damn expensive, only hundreds will be built, our aircraft carriers are still being planned, J-15 is still a prototype.
> 
> I would say it is a huge difference & gap, india is clearly having a up hand -- poor Chinese building everything at home, indians buying from everywhere.



Smart reply but dont worry the gap is not too wide after all Chinese are the second best in the world.


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## Emmie

So it means a year or two still required to finalize the bidder...


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## SpArK

Emmie said:


> So it means a year or two still required to finalize the bidder...



No only money doubled. Aircrafts and year are same ..


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## Nirvana

Emmie said:


> So it means a year or two still required to finalize the bidder...



Hopefully By 2020 Defence Ministry will think of Finalizing the Bidder , Than it May take Another 2-3 Years to Sign the Deal 

You see We are Totally Screwed up , Better think of Upgrading Mig 21's Once again


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## SinoChallenger

luckyyy said:


> 20bn$ means almost 158ml ..
> 
> why then they are buying mmrca when FGFA coming at 100ml...


Because FGFA will become $200 million later. They just haven't announced it yet.


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## Nirvana

SinoChallenger said:


> Because FGFA will become $200 million later. They just haven't announced it yet.



Thanks for Leaking top Secret Info


----------



## 21 Dec 2012

sinochallenger 
do you also have the quotation of j-20 too
the one chengd ugave to my source said it was $20mn


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## Emmie

SpArK said:


> No only money doubled. Aircrafts and year are same ..



And aircraft is yet to be decided.. Money doubled for an unknown aircraft... 

If I am not mistaken this possible soar has to go through a certain process, right? Sorry to say IDM is bit sluggish in processing.

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## SinoChallenger

Nirvana said:


> Thanks for Leaking top Secret Info


*What is the first reaction when the Russians see that the cost of MMRCA has doubled?*

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## Emmie

Nirvana said:


> Hopefully By 2020 Defence Ministry will think of Finalizing the Bidder , Than it May take Another 2-3 Years to Sign the Deal
> 
> You see We are Totally Screwed up , *Better think of Upgrading Mig 21's Once again*



Even that looks a lil hard.. Much needed upgradation of Mirage 2kh is still invisible..


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## SpArK

SinoChallenger said:


> *What is the first reaction when the Russians see that the cost of MMRCA has doubled?*



*They Giggle. Then get shy.*


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## SpArK

Emmie said:


> And aircraft is yet to be decided.. Money doubled for an unknown aircraft...
> 
> If I am not mistaken this possible soar has to go through a certain process, right? Sorry to say IDM is bit sluggish processing.



No unknown.. Both gave their bids.. now in few weeks further negatiations and a few "extra's" apart from deal.. and then its deal and by next year 18 fighters go VROOM!! over the sky's... see its quite simple. Even "*you*" can understand it.


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## Nirvana

Emmie said:


> Even that looks a lil hard.. Much needed upgradation of Mirage 2kh is still *invisible*..



Not Invisible , You need eye check Up ....Mirage Deal Already signed


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## 21 Dec 2012

I think i speak for evry1 when i say that it was pretty much expectable considering that mmrca and the price tag of 10.2bn was old and estimated for late 3rd gens or 4th gen a/c
they might have had less cost and infra issues with the russian bid but it wasnt meant to be
anyways it is good that india is getting these jets that too at 100%ToT
may help in devlpmnt of pak-fa

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## Emmie

Nirvana said:


> Not Invisible , You need eye check Up ....Mirage Deal Already signed



I know that, it eventually got signed in June this year.. My point was the upgradation, is it visible? I mean, can you see upgraded birds in the sky?

BTW my ES is perfect...

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## Emmie

SpArK said:


> No unknown.. Both gave their bids.. now in few weeks further negatiations and a few "extra's" apart from deal.. and then its deal and by next year 18 fighters go VROOM!! over the sky's... see its quite simple. Even "*you*" can understand it.



Yeah I can understand, time it took so far gives you a spick understanding.


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## foxbat

Emmie said:


> I know that, it eventually got signed in June this year.. My point was the upgradation, is it visible? I mean, can you see upgraded birds in the sky?
> 
> BTW my ES is perfect...



Buddy, the Airforces and and govts do not develop their schedules based on internet armchair generals' whims and fancies.. If that was the case, PAF would have got the urgently promised 50 JF 17s this year only from China and would have ended the year with 5 squads instead of 2


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## SpArK

SinoChallenger said:


> OMG! Your currency decreased in value by 50% over 9 years. That's like 6-7% per year, which is the same as India's GDP growth rate. In other words, India hasn't even grown much economically at all over the past 9 years. It's just a shrewed game of fake numbers and talking up India as a high-growth economy when it isn't at all.
> 
> Now you guys are *totally screwed* because you've been provoking China for the past 3 years, but now China is WAYYYYY further ahead than you militarily. Your economy is hardly growing and domestic unrest is increasing. You're getting shafted by arms dealers everywhere and even Russia has abandoned you in favor of Pakistan.



Okie since ur from mainland i will make it simple why price gone up.

We went to these fighters mall looking for some fighters like Mirages.. and all.

we saw a guy and asked 'how much"? He said 35 ..we said "how about 30"? 

He then said NOOOOO... the longest No u will ever hear. He said " i cnt give 30 if i give 30... tommorow i close down!!!.

Then we said " give us a deal on the fighter man". He said "1 sec , i talk to my boss .. he came back and said " you seem like nice guy, i give u best price. 34.50 ... we said its just .50 discount.. 

He replied .50 is lot of money ...you save .50 here and go somewhere and save another .50 , then its 1. thennnn u take ur 1 and go to somewhere else and buy something else.

We said we dont want it and we are leaving and he then said "hey, be a man , do the right thing", maybe u dont buy the fighter right now and go around and come back and you say "eyyy.. i want the fighter for 34.50 , i say NOOOO.. u dont get 34.50 now price gone up maybe 40. be a man".


Hence the price was raised since they didnt give discounts.

End of the story.

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## SpArK

Emmie said:


> Yeah I can understand, time it took so far gives you a spick understanding.



understanding on what.. and how much time???


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## fast

OrionHunter said:


> I think we're misinterpreting the issue. It is $11 billion for 126 aircraft WITH AN OPTION TO BUY 63 MORE. So that could come to almost $20 billion if one also takes into account the additional infrastructure required.
> 
> And the French Rafale is probably going to be the clear winner as it is much cheaper than the Typhoon and a single source product unlike the Eurofighter.



You are wrong. It's the original plan with 126 planes doubled in cost.


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## fast

SpArK said:


> Okie since ur from mainland i will make it simple why price gone up.
> 
> We went to these fighters mall looking for some fighters like Mirages.. and all.
> 
> we saw a guy and asked 'how much"? He said 35 ..we said "how about 30"?
> 
> He then said NOOOOO... the longest No u will ever hear. He said " i cnt give 30 if i give 30... tommorow i close down!!!.
> 
> Then we said " give us a deal on the fighter man". He said "1 sec , i talk to my boss .. he came back and said " you seem like nice guy, i give u best price. 34.50 ... we said its just .50 discount..
> 
> He replied .50 is lot of money ...you save .50 here and go somewhere and save another .50 , then its 1. thennnn u take ur 1 and go to somewhere else and buy something else.
> 
> We said we dont want it and we are leaving and he then said "hey, be a man , do the right thing", maybe u dont buy the fighter right now and go around and come back and you say "eyyy.. i want the fighter for 34.50 , i say NOOOO.. u dont get 34.50 now price gone up maybe 40. be a man".
> 
> 
> Hence the price was raised since they didnt give discounts.
> 
> End of the story.



Nice way to rationalize arse rape by claiming you enjoy it afterward.


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## foxbat

SpArK said:


> Okie since ur from mainland i will make it simple why price gone up.
> 
> We went to these fighters mall looking for some fighters like Mirages.. and all.
> 
> we saw a guy and asked 'how much"? He said 35 ..we said "how about 30"?
> 
> He then said NOOOOO... the longest No u will ever hear. He said " i cnt give 30 if i give 30... tommorow i close down!!!.
> 
> Then we said " give us a deal on the fighter man". He said "1 sec , i talk to my boss .. he came back and said " you seem like nice guy, i give u best price. 34.50 ... we said its just .50 discount..
> 
> He replied .50 is lot of money ...you save .50 here and go somewhere and save another .50 , then its 1. thennnn u take ur 1 and go to somewhere else and buy something else.
> 
> We said we dont want it and we are leaving and he then said "hey, be a man , do the right thing", maybe u dont buy the fighter right now and go around and come back and you say "eyyy.. i want the fighter for 34.50 , i say NOOOO.. u dont get 34.50 now price gone up maybe 40. be a man".
> 
> 
> Hence the price was raised since they didnt give discounts.
> 
> End of the story.



You a RP fan too  ???

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## SpArK

fast said:


> Nice way to rationalize arse rape by claiming you enjoy it afterward.



eEK.. what a dirty mind... 

you been like that all along or acquired it along from the surroundings?

---------- Post added at 12:27 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:27 AM ----------




foxbat said:


> You a RP fan too  ???



Who is RP ?


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## SpArK

MMRCA Principals Pore Over Bids



Nov 10, 2011


NEW DELHI &#8212; The cost of acquiring the winning aircraft for India&#8217;s Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) competition is no longer a secret &#8212; except to the public, for now.

With final bids in for the Dassault Rafale and Eurofighter Typhoon, the offers of both European companies were opened Nov. 4 and their contents revealed for the first time to the two European rivals, *as well as the Indian government&#8217;s MMRCA program team, and three defense ministry officers who will spend the next 6-8 weeks boiling the two offers down to a common, comparable form.*

Bid details are not yet public. *But after the 3-hr. meeting at the Indian air force (IAF) headquarters, a ministry officer in the acquisitions office indicated that certain parameters, including the flyaway cost per aircraft, were not as disparate as might have been expected.*

Officials from the two firms would not comment on the bids, though EADS Cassidian released a statement minutes after the meeting, saying: &#8220;Our offer for India&#8217;s MMRCA tender is backed by the four Eurofighter partner nations as well as their respective aerospace and defense industries. It is competitive and designed to deliver maximum value to India.&#8221;

Privately, officials at both companies said they were confident with where their bids were placed. That is not surprising, especially since the biggest factor is still an unknown: how the ministry will arrive at the ownership/life-cycle cost of both aircraft over a 40-year/6,000-hr. run &#8212; an exercise it has never attempted before. Mystery also shrouds the benchmark price, a figure that the ministry and IAF jointly formulated this year, and one to which the bid prices of the Rafale and Eurofighter will be compared with, to focus on the more competitive proposal.

&#8220;Both companies now know the unit cost of each other&#8217;s aircraft,&#8221; the ministry officer said. &#8220;That was closely held information so far. But the real calculations, which will include [the] cost of flying these aircraft over their lifetime, plus inputs from technology transfer and offsets, will provide a final picture. We have a formula and process. It will now be applied to both bids.&#8221;

Industry observers suggest that the government is now well-placed to make a decision, though others indicate that the only real political decision made in the competition so far was the elimination of the two U.S. contenders, Lockheed Martin and Boeing, in April.

*&#8220;If the two final offers from Dassault and Eurofighter are roughly comparable, the government will perhaps want to leverage more strategic benefits from the potential winner,&#8221; says an adviser to the Confederation of Indian Industry, which counts among its members several firms that will be offsets partners to either Dassault or EADS Cassidian. &#8220;You couldn&#8217;t ask for two aircraft that are more comparable, or bigger rivals in the aerospace market today. It&#8217;s an opportunity for India to truly gain something here, over and above the 126 airplanes.&#8221;*

The lowest bidder, and therefore the one poised to win the $10.4 billion deal, is expected to be formally announced before the new year. *Price negotiations will follow with the lowest bidder, leading to contract signature by March 2012, and bringing to an end a 10-year effort by the IAF to buy a stopgap fleet to stem fighter squadron depletion.
*

*The government has not formally announced lowest bidders in arms competitions, but it had apparently decided unofficially last year to begin the practice as an exercise in transparency. In September 2010, the government revealed that General Electric had been identified as the lowest bidder in a competition against Eurojet to power the indigenous Tejas Mk. 2.

As for the MMRCA&#8217;s final contract value, it is likely to be well more than the originally budgeted $10.4 billion. It could reach roughly double that figure, taking into account factors such as inflation, currency fluctuation adjustments and the possibility of a larger buy.*

MMRCA Principals Pore Over Bids | AVIATION WEEK

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## SpArK

MMRCA Principals Pore Over Bids



Nov 10, 2011


NEW DELHI &#8212; The cost of acquiring the winning aircraft for India&#8217;s Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) competition is no longer a secret &#8212; except to the public, for now.

With final bids in for the Dassault Rafale and Eurofighter Typhoon, the offers of both European companies were opened Nov. 4 and their contents revealed for the first time to the two European rivals, *as well as the Indian government&#8217;s MMRCA program team, and three defense ministry officers who will spend the next 6-8 weeks boiling the two offers down to a common, comparable form.*

Bid details are not yet public. *But after the 3-hr. meeting at the Indian air force (IAF) headquarters, a ministry officer in the acquisitions office indicated that certain parameters, including the flyaway cost per aircraft, were not as disparate as might have been expected.*

Officials from the two firms would not comment on the bids, though EADS Cassidian released a statement minutes after the meeting, saying: &#8220;Our offer for India&#8217;s MMRCA tender is backed by the four Eurofighter partner nations as well as their respective aerospace and defense industries. It is competitive and designed to deliver maximum value to India.&#8221;

Privately, officials at both companies said they were confident with where their bids were placed. That is not surprising, especially since the biggest factor is still an unknown: how the ministry will arrive at the ownership/life-cycle cost of both aircraft over a 40-year/6,000-hr. run &#8212; an exercise it has never attempted before. Mystery also shrouds the benchmark price, a figure that the ministry and IAF jointly formulated this year, and one to which the bid prices of the Rafale and Eurofighter will be compared with, to focus on the more competitive proposal.

&#8220;Both companies now know the unit cost of each other&#8217;s aircraft,&#8221; the ministry officer said. &#8220;That was closely held information so far. But the real calculations, which will include [the] cost of flying these aircraft over their lifetime, plus inputs from technology transfer and offsets, will provide a final picture. We have a formula and process. It will now be applied to both bids.&#8221;

Industry observers suggest that the government is now well-placed to make a decision, though others indicate that the only real political decision made in the competition so far was the elimination of the two U.S. contenders, Lockheed Martin and Boeing, in April.

*&#8220;If the two final offers from Dassault and Eurofighter are roughly comparable, the government will perhaps want to leverage more strategic benefits from the potential winner,&#8221; says an adviser to the Confederation of Indian Industry, which counts among its members several firms that will be offsets partners to either Dassault or EADS Cassidian. &#8220;You couldn&#8217;t ask for two aircraft that are more comparable, or bigger rivals in the aerospace market today. It&#8217;s an opportunity for India to truly gain something here, over and above the 126 airplanes.&#8221;*

The lowest bidder, and therefore the one poised to win the $10.4 billion deal, is expected to be formally announced before the new year. *Price negotiations will follow with the lowest bidder, leading to contract signature by March 2012, and bringing to an end a 10-year effort by the IAF to buy a stopgap fleet to stem fighter squadron depletion.
*

*The government has not formally announced lowest bidders in arms competitions, but it had apparently decided unofficially last year to begin the practice as an exercise in transparency. In September 2010, the government revealed that General Electric had been identified as the lowest bidder in a competition against Eurojet to power the indigenous Tejas Mk. 2.

As for the MMRCA&#8217;s final contract value, it is likely to be well more than the originally budgeted $10.4 billion. It could reach roughly double that figure, taking into account factors such as inflation, currency fluctuation adjustments and the possibility of a larger buy.*

MMRCA Principals Pore Over Bids | AVIATION WEEK


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## sancho

foxbat said:


> You a RP fan too  ???



Come on, who isn't! 




SpArK said:


> MMRCA Principals Pore Over Bids



As expected, the EF consortium and more over the partner countries are completely desperate, to divert their orders to us, that they even take take financial loss into account. It's a simple calculation, either they pay the penality for cancelling their orders, or they find an export customer to take it over and even if they sell it at lower rates, the loss isn't as high as the penality. Not to forget that an export customer that joins as a partner would be the only possibility to divert some of the upgrade costs too, which otherwise also would have to be paid by the partners. They are ready to give anything, just to get rid of the fighter, which is actually a strange behavior, but as mentioned, that was predictable, more interesting is the French reaction now! The only pending fields are still the industrial and political sides, what are they offering there? Technically they are better for sure and even if the costs are close now, with added lifecycle costs which the EF partners can't reduce like that, the Rafale offers clear advantages. So will they provide good industrial offers as well?


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## luckyyy

> MMRCA Principals Pore Over Bids
> 
> Bid details are not yet public. But after the 3-hr. meeting at the Indian air force (IAF) headquarters, a ministry officer in the acquisitions office indicated that certain parameters, including the flyaway *cost per aircraft, were not as disparate as might have been expected*



means the price quoted is very high and their is no desperate attempt for bag the big order..
3-hr. meeting at the Indian air force (IAF) headquarters ..*what for ?*
just scarp the mmrca , you going to have FGFA ..


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## deepakclaw

I think pakistani planers do a far better job(I MEAN MAINTAINING MILITARY STATERGIC POTENCY)... with limitted funds, with limitted options, with bad corupt politicians(similar to ours)
compared to us......


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## ptltejas

There r no of Manuals which followed by IAF.
Even Rus and france have guidelines to be followed. such type rule book is also given for passenger planes like Boings. 

There is Flight Safety like thing which is given most priority. They check whole runway in morning so no small stone remain on runway and no. of other things.

The heles have different branch.

However the difficulty is with Mig 21. An old age man could not live more even he be given lots medicenes.


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## sancho

> *No political considerations for MMRCA deal*
> 
> New Delhi: Defence Minister AK Antony on Friday made it clear that there will be "no political considerations" in awarding the multi-billion dollar 126 combat aircraft deal which entered its last phase with the opening of commercial bids of two bidders.
> ...
> 
> ..."There will be no political considerations in defence procurement and that is our stand which everybody knows," he told reporters here.
> 
> The minister was asked if the Defence Ministry would take into account geo-political considerations before deciding on the winner of the mega deal.
> 
> Antony said as far as his ministry was concerned, "defence procurement is strictly professional and (based on) price. Technical evaluation is 101 per cent professional and then after that comes the price." ...



source: zeenews


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## sancho

An article about RAFs performance in Libya, which once again shows where the weakpoints of the Eurofighter are:



> *Vital role for British airpower over Libya*
> 
> ...The Typhoon&#8217;s debut as a bomber was not without difficulty. When the Libyan operation began, the UK was the only one of the four Eurofighter partner nations to have implemented a strike capability. Eight RAF pilots had been trained to drop 2,000-pound (correction 1000 pound) Enhanced Paveway II bombs that could be guided by GPS-aided INS or laser-designated to their target by a Litening 3 pod. But their currency had lapsed due to a cut in flying training hours.
> 
> Commanders therefore decided to initially pair each single-seat Typhoon with a Tornado, crewed by two fully experienced &#8220;mud movers.&#8221; If lasing was required, Tornados sometimes did the task for the Typhoon pilot. The combination proved to be synergistic; *the Typhoons provided greater situational awareness to the mixed formation thanks to their Link 16 datalink and secure voice communications. They also provided an insurance against any airborne threats, since they also carried AMRAAM and ASRAAM air-air missiles, and a greater-capability defensive aids system.*...



Vital role for British airpower over Libya | Aviation International News


The EF with it's latest avionics obviously has the upper hand in sensors and defensive capabilities compared to the older Tornado, but it lacks badly in any type of A2G weapons, the required fuel for long range strike roles and the share of workload between the pilot and the WSO, since the EF twins seaters will only be used for training.
So all it did was supporting the Tornado with additional intelligence and escorting them, while it's very limited strike capability was only used against less important or bigger targets, where the collateral damage of its 1000 pound LGBs were no problem anymore. 
When you read the rest of the article it gets even more obvious how the Tornado outdid the Eurofighter in Libya and how the Brits praise their Tornado, which explains why they do anything now to keep it in service as long as possible, rather then replacing them with expensive new EFs.


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## Thundersword

luckyyy said:


> just scarp the mmrca , you going to have FGFA ..


what do you mean??? we need mmrca!!! w/o it our force levels are going to plunge! besides we are not going to have FGFA before a minimum 5 yrs(obviously will be more)...........


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## Abingdonboy

luckyyy said:


> means the price quoted is very high and their is no desperate attempt for bag the big order..
> 3-hr. meeting at the Indian air force (IAF) headquarters ..*what for ?*
> just scarp the mmrca , you going to have FGFA ..



Mate different roles (MMRCA/FGFA) and anyway FGFA is still relatively far out (2018-22) whilst MMRCA is 2014/5-


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## sudhir007




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## nomi007

i think mmrca jet will not be deliver on time


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## sancho

nomi007 said:


> i think mmrca jet will not be deliver on time



The first squad will be delivered by Dassault or the EF consortium and both versions (Rafale F3+ and EF T3A) will be in production by then, so the timeline for that squad shouldn't be an issue. More interesting will be how the licence production will be done and how fast Indian industry can absorb the ToT, but with the experience of HAL and European licence productions, there shouldn't be a big issue too.
I even expect additional orders directly from the winning vendor, to speed up Mig 21 replacement!

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## Thundersword

are the EFT tranche 3 A and rafale F3+ already being inducted in their respective countries???


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## sancho

Thundersword said:


> are the EFT tranche 3 A and rafale F3+ already being inducted in their respective countries???



Induction of both will begin by 2013 for their countries, MMRCA requires first squad by late 2014, early 2015. Till now it is doubtful that we get EF T3B according the timelines.


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## rockstarIN

Just saw Rafale doing stunts ahead of Dubai Airshow over Dubai skies....awesome..!!


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## SpArK

*Why is US peddling a hangar queen?*


Nov 10, 2011

A multi-role combat aircraft is one of those things air forces the world over love for no good reason other than the desire to fly a plane that can do everything. *Some 30 years ago, when the Indian Air Force selected the Jaguar as an MRCA (Multi-Role Combat Aircraft) when plainly it was only a low level short range strike plane, I had pointed out that the trouble with aircraft designed for multiple missions is that they cannot perform any particular role very well. Nothing has changed, except now &#8220;medium range&#8221; is added to the Air Staff Quality Requirements, two planes have been shortlisted, and the US is trying to scramble the competition by offering the Lockheed Martin Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) F-35 Lightning-II just as the bids by Dassault Avions for its Rafale fighter and by the European consortium EADS for its Typhoon warplane were being opened. This offer, while sudden, was not entirely unexpected, and has a whiff of the spoiler even though there&#8217;s a more substantive reason behind it. In any event, if aircraft quality and performance is what matters, scrutinising the JSF makes sense.*



*JSF can, at best, be considered a work in progress, and at worst an enormously expensive failure, that has already racked up 89 per cent cost-over-run and time delays of several years, with no end in sight to major design and technology problems confronting it.* Winslow Wheeler, a combat aviation expert formerly with the US&#8217; government accountability office (GAO) and ex-staff adviser to several US senators, deems this aircraft &#8220;a bad idea that shows every sign of turning into a disaster as big as the F-111 fiasco of the 1960s.&#8221;



The serious nature of F-35&#8217;s troubles is not a secret. According to news reports, the Pentagon&#8217;s director of operational test & evaluation earlier this year pointed to a raft of problems afflicting the JSF, among them, *the &#8220;transonic wing roll-off (and) greater than expected sideslip during medium angle of attack testing&#8221;, unreliability of the components, the after-burner on the Pratt & Whitney F-135 engine disrupting the air flow causing severe vibrations and preventing realisation of maximum power, helmet-mounted display that has restricted testing to the preliminary Block 0.5 and Block 1 mission systems software, and the inability of the on-board inert gas generation system to obviate the buildup of oxygen in fuel tank that can result in fire and explosion. A news story additionally revealed significant structural weakness in the &#8220;forward root rib&#8221; providing &#8220;core strength of the wings&#8221;, and a recent GAO report referred to the faulty manufacturing of the outer mould of the aircraft that has undermined its stealth characteristics, rectifying which, it said, has major cost and time impacts.*



*JSF, it turns out, is an over-weight (49,500 pounds at takeoff in air-to-air role), under-powered (with an engine rated at 42,000 pounds of thrust) aircraft with a relatively small wing span (460 square feet), rendering it, in Wheeler&#8217;s words, &#8220;appallingly unmaneuverable&#8221;* and in the same league as the short-lived F-105. Worse, it has only two tons of ordnance carrying capacity in its internal bays; loading additional bombs and weapons on outer wing stations will light up the aircraft like a Christmas tree on enemy radar, making nonsense of its vaunted stealth qualities. And in ground support mission, it is seen as a &#8220;non-starter&#8221; &#8212; &#8220;too fast to independently identify targets, too fragile to withstand ground fire&#8221;, and too lacking in payload capacity, including fuel, to pull useful loiter time over battlefield. The crux of the problem, according to Wheeler, is that the JSF *&#8220;has mortgaged its success on a hypothetical vision of ultra long-range (air-to-air) radar&#8230; that has fallen on its face many times in real war&#8221;, eventuating in performance that is &#8220;embarrassing in the air-to-air role&#8221; even when compared to &#8220;elderly&#8221; aircraft such as the A-10.*




But that&#8217;s not the half of it! The F-35, when it enters service, will be the least test-proven of any new aircraft. In this regard, the GAO report mentions that &#8220;Open air testing (is) constrained by range limitations that are incapable of providing realistic testing of many key (Block 3 systems software-driven) capabilities&#8221; that are available, but mostly on paper. What this means, according to Wheeler, is that *97 per cent of &#8220;flight testing (is) still unflown&#8221; and eventually only 17 per cent of JSF&#8217;s flight characteristics will be physically tested and proven. Dismayed as much by the sub-standard aircraft in the offing and the escalating costs as by the unwillingness of the US to share &#8220;critical technologies&#8221;, many of the Nato partners have reduced their requirement of this aircraft. Britain, for instance, has cut back to 40 F-35s from its initial order of 138 aircraft, and Israel, which contracted for 20 JSFs, is seeking refurbished F-16s and F-18s instead, as a near and middle-term solution.
*


The F-35 has been pushed into a virtual death spiral also by the seemingly insurmountable difficulties facing its vertical take-off variant, compelling the Royal Navy to junk it, a decision the US Navy and the US Marines are expected to soon follow. Costly attempts to rectify design flaws and to meet performance criteria amidst slashed domestic and foreign sales have raised the programme expenditure to the one-trillion-dollar level and the unit price of this platform to a &#8220;catastrophically high&#8221; $200 million, leading the US Congress to threaten a cut-off in funding.



*It is the imperative to save the JSF programme that has prompted Washington to offer this plane to IAF. Delhi has to decide which combat aircraft industry &#8212; American, French or European, it will play the white knight to. Lockheed will flourish even if India rejects the F-35. But failure to sell Rafale or the Eurofighter will respectively put the survival of future combat aircraft development and production in France at risk and severely dent the prospects of EADS.
*

*With so much at stake and the urge to recover some of the costs, France and the consortium of European countries will be prepared to give far more in return and by way of offsets to get a deal done.
*

The writer is a professor at the Centre for Policy Research, New Delhi


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## danger007

Typhoon and MKI together 






---------- Post added at 06:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:28 PM ----------







---------- Post added at 06:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:30 PM ----------


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## Paan Singh

MKI is huge ac..


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## danger007

---------- Post added at 06:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:32 PM ----------


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## SpArK

*Raytheon To Do The Entire Weapons Suite For Typhoon!!*


Following are the five weapons which will be integrated onboard Typhoon, if it wins, two of which are already on it :

1. Paveway IV --- Recently tested successfully, is more advanced than II and III.

2. Sidewinder AIM 9X Block-II---Analog, air-to-air, the Block-II is the most advanced in the sidewinder family.

3. AMRAAM---Tested in Iraq.

4. HARM--High-speed anti-radiation missile--this is a requirement in the RFP, and there are only two countries in the world which make the anti-radiation missile--USA and Russia!!

5. JSOW--Joint Stand-Off Weapon--the heaviest of them all, to go on the pylon!

No rough figure or estimate available. These can be changed/modified as per the customer needs.



Chindits: Raytheon To Do The Entire Weapons Suite For Typhoon!!


RFI news from Raytheon and this news suggest EFT may have got the upper hand.


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## danger007

---------- Post added at 06:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:35 PM ----------




Prism said:


> MKI is huge ac..



but still it's sexy and damn bird...


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## WHITESMOKE

danger007 said:


> Typhoon and MKI together
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ---------- Post added at 06:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:28 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ---------- Post added at 06:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:30 PM ----------




Typhoon looks ugly in-front of MKI.. What a sexy fighter...

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## danger007

WHITESMOKE said:


> Typhoon looks ugly in-front of MKI.. What a sexy fighter...


 
Sexy demon in the sky.......


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## Nirvana

Not the Thread for the Mki's but got this pic , This is not PS ...its from Indradhanush Airforce Excercise







Some More

Flickriver: Most interesting photos from Sukhoi Su-30 pool

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## ptltejas

Nirvana said:


> Not the Thread for the Mki's but got this pic , This is not PS ...its from Indradhanush Airforce Excercise
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Some More
> 
> Flickriver: Most interesting photos from Sukhoi Su-30 pool


 
why people stand on runway. where plane is going cross to runway?


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## Roybot

ptltejas said:


> why people stand on runway. where plane is going cross to runway?



Thats not the runway, just a road


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## ptltejas

roy_gourav said:


> Thats not the runway, just a road


 
Yaar MoD MMRCA deal complete nahi hoti aur Dohre padte he!(;-))


----------



## Roybot

ptltejas said:


> Yaar MoD MMRCA deal complete nahi hoti aur Dohre padte he!(;-))



 Shabr ka phal meetha hota hai !


----------



## ptltejas

Kuch Mitha Ho Jae.


----------



## SpArK

EF maneuverability at dubai airshow.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## Paan Singh

SpArK said:


> EF maneuverability at dubai airshow.




i thought its formula 1 circuit


----------



## ejaz007

roy_gourav said:


> Shabr ka phal meetha hota hai !


 
Aksar Shabr ka phal gal sar jata hay.


----------



## unicorn

*DUBAI: UAE issues shock Eurofighter Typhoon request*

Frances long-running campaign to sell up to 60 Dassault Rafales to the United Arab Emirates faces a shock last-minute challenge, with the Eurofighter consortium having been asked to submit a proposal based on its Typhoon combat aircraft.

DUBAI: UAE issues shock Eurofighter Typhoon request

Is it safe to assume now that Typhoon is the future Mrca?
I think so


----------



## SpArK

*Fighter bid like no other
- European rivals sit at long table as offers are read out*













New Delhi, Nov. 12: *The only military wing headquartered outside South Block in the capital&#8217;s Raisina Hill is the Indian Air Force. A squat multi-storeyed block, the Vayu Sena Bhavan is marked out by a scrapped fighter aircraft mounted on a pillar, its nose skywards as if it were soaring.*

Visitors are allowed in only on invitation and after they are frisked, the irises of their eyes checked biometrically to confirm their identities.

Foreigners are rarely allowed into the building and even civilians must have their backgrounds investigated for permission to enter.

*Last week, half-a-dozen Europeans were let into the building after going through security and escorted to the fifth floor where they were sat down at the end of a long table in a conference room adjacent to Air Chief Marshal N.A.K. Browne&#8217;s office.
*
The Europeans were from two firms, EADS Cassidian and France&#8217;s Dassault Aviation. In one of the world&#8217;s largest defence contracts that is hotly contested, Cassidian&#8217;s Eurofighter Typhoon and Dassault&#8217;s Rafale fighter jets have been shortlisted.

When their executives were invited last week, it was for the opening of the financial bids. The meeting was convened by joint secretary (air) R.K. Ghosh, the &#8220;acquisitions manager&#8221; for the IAF&#8217;s medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) programme, the exercise to procure 126 fighter jets, an order that may be expanded to 200.

For both EADS and Dassault &#8212; as it would be for any other firm &#8212; European giants struggling to keep their assembly lines (and thousands of jobs) intact &#8212; the IAF order will mean a guarantee for years.

For India and its air force, the MMRCA is the single largest defence contract it would sign. When the Request for Proposals (RFP) was sent out in 2007, the value of the contract was estimated to be Rs 42,000 crore or $10 billion.


The order could now well go up to $20 billion, or double the estimate, accounting for cost and forex fluctuations. The spotlight on A.K. Antony&#8217;s defence establishment in going through with the acquisition, therefore, is so much sharper.

Not only have Indian defence acquisitions been plagued by allegations of bribery and unaccounted commissions (or kickbacks), the last time a Congress government signed a comparable deal (for 410 Bofors howitzers in 1987), it cost Rajiv Gandhi his prime ministership.

*Minutes after the Europeans were sat down at the end of the conference table, the acquisitions manager asked for a metal box containing the financial bids to be brought in. They were asked to confirm that the box was locked. They did. The box was then opened. It contained bundles of papers that the competitors had submitted, each trying to outdo the other to emerge as L1 &#8211; the lowest bidder.*

*The seals on the envelopes were broken after they confirmed that their bids were genuine.
*
&#8220;It was like nothing I had seen in India before,&#8221; one of the men present in the room told The Telegraph. He had attended bid-openings before.

&#8220;They were always like casual and regulation stuff. But here there were people seated around the long table, each was asked to identify himself, and there were placards with our names on the table and we had designated seats and everything was on the record,&#8221; he recalled.

*The Typhoon and the Rafale, both twin-engine fighter jets &#8211; seen in action over Libya most recently -- that claim to be in the four-plus generation of aircraft, were shortlisted after 643-point technical and flight evaluation tests by the IAF through 2009 and 2010*.

*The aircraft were tested over the desert in Rajasthan, at Hindustan Aeronautics&#8217; Bangalore establishment and at the high-altitude airfield in Leh, Ladakh. Then IAF test pilots flew the aircraft in their countries of origin to test their weapons&#8217; capabilities in air-to-air and air-to-ground combat.*

The tests eliminated the F-16 Super Viper IN and the F/A-18 E/F Super Hornet, made by US firms Lockheed Martin and Boeing; the Gripen NG made by Swedish firm Saab and the Russian MiG-35.

In so doing, India was risking a growing defence relationship with the US. After months during which US envoys to India said there was &#8220;an expectation&#8221; of the contract being awarded to US firms as a thanksgiving for the civilian-nuclear deal, the Pentagon and the US government were bitterly disappointed.

A day before the bids were opened in that fifth-floor conference room in New Delhi, the Pentagon presented a report to the US Congress, expressing its regret over losing the deal yet again and also offering to &#8220;share information&#8221; with India on its F-35 Lightning II stealth fighter programme, an aircraft that is a generation ahead of the competitors for the MMRCA programme.

For the IAF, not only was that proposal &#8220;too late&#8221;, it was also seen as an effort to queer the pitch when it was two-thirds of the way through the acquisition process.

*&#8220;It was the Pentagon talking to the US Congress. It wasn&#8217;t Vayu Sena Bhavan talking to South Block,&#8221; said one officer, underlining that the Pentagon&#8217;s offer had little relevance to the MMRCA programme at this stage.*

The F-35 certainly did not figure around that long table where 13 officials from the defence ministry, the IAF, Hindustan Aeronautics and the Defence Research and Development Organisation who make up the contract negotiation committee for the MMRCA programme briefed the Europeans on the process to be followed.

*The acquisitions manager read out in broad terms the financial terms offered by the two sides. As the executives took notes furiously, it dawned that the formulae for pricing the aircraft presented by each was so complicated that it would take weeks to determine the values.*

*&#8220;There is no such thing as a sticker price,&#8221; said one officer. &#8220;You don&#8217;t buy aircraft like oranges, by the kilo.&#8221;
*

He explained why it could take up to six weeks &#8211; may be till the end of December -- to determine the lowest bidder. &#8220;It&#8217;s a price for the whole package,&#8221; he said.

For the first 10 to 12 days, Air Headquarters expects there will be much back-and-forth between the IAF and the companies as clarifications are sought. The meeting determined that the financial bids would be tied to the price of the dollar quoted by State Bank of India&#8217;s Parliament Street branch on November 4.

*The IAF has sought financial quotes in eight categories, called M1 to M8. M1 is the &#8220;unit flyaway cost&#8221;, the price of each of the first 18 aircraft to be purchased &#8220;off the shelf&#8221;.*

*M2 asks for the lifecycle costs &#8211; the price of running the equipment over their lifespan of 6,000 hours &#8211; of the different components that make up the aircraft (engines, airframe, weapons pods).
*

*M3 is &#8220;operational cost&#8221;. M4 asks for the lifecycle costs of spares, fuel usage, a &#8220;mean time between failures&#8221; (MTBF), and lubricants*.

*M5 and M6 are the estimated costs of overhaul and mid-life upgrade. M7 is the cost of the technology that the maker will transfer to Hindustan Aeronautics that will set up the assembly line were the Typhoon or the Rafale would be made under licence. M8 is the computation of total costs.*

The formula for computing the costs has an escalation cost, net present value and discounted cash flow built into it, a financial expert said.

*Air force officers, however, worry that formulae have a way of getting disrupted in the acquisition process because they get complicated by the pressures of diplomacy and/or under-the-table processes. On the other hand, they also say that if India were to award such a huge deal to a country or a collection of countries, it would be foolish to not extract diplomatic and political mileage out of the deal.* Compounding all of this is the IAF&#8217;s dire necessity for the aircraft as it stretches its assets &#8211; such as the outdated MiG 21 that make up a bulk of its inventory -- well beyond their prescribed lifespan.

Eurofighter&#8217;s chief executive officer Bernhardt Gerwert is on record as having said that the four countries that make up the EADS consortium &#8211; Germany, the UK, Spain and Italy &#8211; had &#8220;offered to make India a partner country&#8221; with an assurance of steady equation with the four top west European countries.

*France&#8217;s President, Nicolas Sarkozy, pushing Dassault&#8217;s bid with the Rafale, has extended repeated invitations to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh &#8211; who was in Paris for the G20 last week -- and had hosted India as the chief guest at the Bastille Day celebrations, a signal moment for the Indian armed forces when they marched down the Champs-Elysees at the head of the parade.
*
France is also banking on traditional relations &#8211; it supplied the frontline Mirage 2000 aircraft &#8211; with the IAF.

*In Vayu Sena Bhavan where the airforce wants to insulate itself from the politics of handing out an estimated $20 billion, the search for that precise formula is still on.
*

Fighter bid like no other

Reactions: Like Like:
3


----------



## ramu

unicorn said:


> *DUBAI: UAE issues shock Eurofighter Typhoon request*
> 
> France&#8217;s long-running campaign to sell up to 60 Dassault Rafales to the United Arab Emirates faces a shock last-minute challenge, with the Eurofighter consortium having been asked to submit a proposal based on its Typhoon combat aircraft.
> 
> DUBAI: UAE issues shock Eurofighter Typhoon request
> 
> Is it safe to assume now that Typhoon is the future Mrca?
> I think so



I have already said the same ... Eurofighter it will be.


----------



## Paan Singh

ramu said:


> I have already said the same ... Eurofighter it will be.



i think too..my heart says it will be EFT..they will surely bring something outstanding on table especially in this crisis
but i support rafale.


----------



## SpArK

UAE asks Eurofighter to counter Rafale offer


DUBAI &#8212; The United Arab Emirates, which is in the final stages of talks with France on the sale of Rafale fighter jets, has invited Eurofighter to make a counter offer, the European consortium said Sunday.

The consortium said that the UAE had asked Britain, which uses the Eurofighter, to provide it with information about the aircraft capacity, and that a briefing took place on October 17.

"We have subsequently received a request for proposal for the potential supply of Typhoon," Eurofighter said of its fighter jet in a statement, adding, "We are now working hard to deliver a response."

Further details about the request, such as the number of aircraft required, or the timeline for a decision, have not been revealed.
French Defence Minister Gerard Longuet said last month that Paris was in the final stages of negotiations on the Gulf state purchasing Rafale fighter jets, the pride of France's Dassault Aviation.

Both the Rafale and the Typhoon were recently involved in combat action over Libya, flown respectively by the French air force and navy and the British Royal Air Force.

The types are also in the final stage of a massive contest to meet India?s 126-unit medium multi-role combat aircraft requirement. Final bids were opened early this month, with a selection decision possible within the next few weeks.

AFP: UAE asks Eurofighter to counter Rafale offer
Dassault is seeking a first export buyer for its "omnirole" Rafale, while the four-nation Eurofighter consortium is hoping to build on a customer base which also includes partner nations Germany, Italy and Spain and additional users Austria and Saudi Arabia.


----------



## angeldemon_007

^^^
I think considering our previous experience with France & Mirage, IAF's favorite will be Rafale but decision will be made by MOD


----------



## nomi007

UAE is considering alternating jet fighter because Rafael cost is twice f-16 block-60


----------



## SQ8

Considering the reported snub by Sarkozy to MMS at the recent hello hi.. 
I think the Rafale may lose it again.
Moreover, the EF's distributed manufacturer base.. and the fact that it even involves the US to a large degree may give it the upper hand.
Unless the Rafale gives a much lower price, the EF may take this as well.


----------



## ramu

Santro said:


> Considering the reported snub by Sarkozy to MMS at the recent hello hi..
> I think the Rafale may lose it again.
> Moreover, the EF's distributed manufacturer base.. and the fact that it even involves the US to a large degree may give it the upper hand.
> *Unless the Rafale gives a much lower price, the EF may take this as well.*



On the contrary I have heard that EF is cheaper on a per unit basis as compared to Rafale. So EF is now clearly leading the competition. Price, yes but it wont just be a lower cost that will work for MoD. Unless Rafale comes up with a discout of 15+% added with sweeteners for Mirage and missiles, the deal is headed EF's way.


----------



## Windjammer

In last months AFM magazine, there was an interesting comparative article under the headiung, "Typhoon vs Rafale which will win in India", however in the current issue, a reader sent a noteworthy feed back.


> One point may be worth mentioning is that the EF2000 bid may be at somewhat of a disadvantage given that Saudi Arabia (a key ally of Pakistan and very active with the PAF) has already bought the Typhoon. It may worry the IAF brass if many details of their new aeroplane are available to PAF planners.


----------



## Paan Singh

Windjammer said:


> In last months AFM magazine, there was an interesting comparative article under the headiung, "Typhoon vs Rafale which will win in India", however in the current issue, a reader sent a noteworthy feed back.



uae too purchasing rafales


----------



## ramu

Windjammer said:


> In last months AFM magazine, there was an interesting comparative article under the headiung, "Typhoon vs Rafale which will win in India", however in the current issue, a reader sent a noteworthy feed back.



That is not a problem to India. India has every detail about F16s and it is one thing to know the aircraft and totally another to know the strategies used by leveraging the platform.

Second, we know how close a partner Saudi Arabia is to Pakistan.


----------



## SpArK

ramu said:


> That is not a problem to India. India has every detail about F16s and it is one thing to know the aircraft and totally another to know the strategies used by leveraging the platform.
> 
> Second, we know how close a partner Saudi Arabia is to Pakistan.



Just a look and a back seat ride makes all immortal..


----------



## rockstarIN

ramu said:


> On the contrary I have heard that EF is cheaper on a per unit basis as compared to Rafale. So EF is now clearly leading the competition. Price, yes but it wont just be a lower cost that will work for MoD. Unless Rafale comes up with a discout of 15+% added with sweeteners for Mirage and missiles, the deal is headed EF's way.



You can't change the quotes now... MoD will select the lowest bidder then the negotiations will happen.

---------- Post added at 02:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:11 PM ----------




Santro said:


> Considering the reported snub by Sarkozy to MMS at the recent hello hi..
> I think the Rafale may lose it again.
> Moreover, the EF's distributed manufacturer base.. a*nd the fact that it even involves the US to a large degree may give it the upper hand.*
> Unless the Rafale gives a much lower price, the EF may take this as well.



In fact US originated weapon systems will give EF a disadvantage. Lots of US items in EF...


----------



## SQ8

SpArK said:


> Just a look and a back seat ride makes all immortal..



Just a statement based on thin air doesn't bring back the mortality.


----------



## SpArK

Santro said:


> Just a statement based on thin air doesn't bring back the mortality.



But its usually the thick air that's coming causing mortality here.


----------



## Windjammer

ramu said:


> That is not a problem to India. India has every detail about F16s and it is one thing to know the aircraft and totally another to know the strategies used by leveraging the platform.
> 
> Second, we know how close a partner Saudi Arabia is to Pakistan.



I find the former editor of AFM much more credible in this regard..... specially on the cooperation between the two air arms. Enough said.


----------



## Windjammer

Santro said:


> Just a statement based on thin air doesn't bring back the mortality.



My dear, poor innovations can not be nurtured.


----------



## ptltejas

SpArK said:


> *Fighter bid like no other
> - European rivals sit at long table as offers are read out*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> New Delhi, Nov. 12: *The only military wing headquartered outside South Block in the capital&#8217;s Raisina Hill is the Indian Air Force. A squat multi-storeyed block, the Vayu Sena Bhavan is marked out by a scrapped fighter aircraft mounted on a pillar, its nose skywards as if it were soaring.*
> 
> Visitors are allowed in only on invitation and after they are frisked, the irises of their eyes checked biometrically to confirm their identities.
> 
> Foreigners are rarely allowed into the building and even civilians must have their backgrounds investigated for permission to enter.
> 
> *Last week, half-a-dozen Europeans were let into the building after going through security and escorted to the fifth floor where they were sat down at the end of a long table in a conference room adjacent to Air Chief Marshal N.A.K. Browne&#8217;s office.
> *
> The Europeans were from two firms, EADS Cassidian and France&#8217;s Dassault Aviation. In one of the world&#8217;s largest defence contracts that is hotly contested, Cassidian&#8217;s Eurofighter Typhoon and Dassault&#8217;s Rafale fighter jets have been shortlisted.
> 
> When their executives were invited last week, it was for the opening of the financial bids. The meeting was convened by joint secretary (air) R.K. Ghosh, the &#8220;acquisitions manager&#8221; for the IAF&#8217;s medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) programme, the exercise to procure 126 fighter jets, an order that may be expanded to 200.
> 
> For both EADS and Dassault &#8212; as it would be for any other firm &#8212; European giants struggling to keep their assembly lines (and thousands of jobs) intact &#8212; the IAF order will mean a guarantee for years.
> 
> For India and its air force, the MMRCA is the single largest defence contract it would sign. When the Request for Proposals (RFP) was sent out in 2007, the value of the contract was estimated to be Rs 42,000 crore or $10 billion.
> 
> 
> The order could now well go up to $20 billion, or double the estimate, accounting for cost and forex fluctuations. The spotlight on A.K. Antony&#8217;s defence establishment in going through with the acquisition, therefore, is so much sharper.
> 
> Not only have Indian defence acquisitions been plagued by allegations of bribery and unaccounted commissions (or kickbacks), the last time a Congress government signed a comparable deal (for 410 Bofors howitzers in 1987), it cost Rajiv Gandhi his prime ministership.
> 
> *Minutes after the Europeans were sat down at the end of the conference table, the acquisitions manager asked for a metal box containing the financial bids to be brought in. They were asked to confirm that the box was locked. They did. The box was then opened. It contained bundles of papers that the competitors had submitted, each trying to outdo the other to emerge as L1 &#8211; the lowest bidder.*
> 
> *The seals on the envelopes were broken after they confirmed that their bids were genuine.
> *
> &#8220;It was like nothing I had seen in India before,&#8221; one of the men present in the room told The Telegraph. He had attended bid-openings before.
> 
> &#8220;They were always like casual and regulation stuff. But here there were people seated around the long table, each was asked to identify himself, and there were placards with our names on the table and we had designated seats and everything was on the record,&#8221; he recalled.
> 
> *The Typhoon and the Rafale, both twin-engine fighter jets &#8211; seen in action over Libya most recently -- that claim to be in the four-plus generation of aircraft, were shortlisted after 643-point technical and flight evaluation tests by the IAF through 2009 and 2010*.
> 
> *The aircraft were tested over the desert in Rajasthan, at Hindustan Aeronautics&#8217; Bangalore establishment and at the high-altitude airfield in Leh, Ladakh. Then IAF test pilots flew the aircraft in their countries of origin to test their weapons&#8217; capabilities in air-to-air and air-to-ground combat.*
> 
> The tests eliminated the F-16 Super Viper IN and the F/A-18 E/F Super Hornet, made by US firms Lockheed Martin and Boeing; the Gripen NG made by Swedish firm Saab and the Russian MiG-35.
> 
> In so doing, India was risking a growing defence relationship with the US. After months during which US envoys to India said there was &#8220;an expectation&#8221; of the contract being awarded to US firms as a thanksgiving for the civilian-nuclear deal, the Pentagon and the US government were bitterly disappointed.
> 
> A day before the bids were opened in that fifth-floor conference room in New Delhi, the Pentagon presented a report to the US Congress, expressing its regret over losing the deal yet again and also offering to &#8220;share information&#8221; with India on its F-35 Lightning II stealth fighter programme, an aircraft that is a generation ahead of the competitors for the MMRCA programme.
> 
> For the IAF, not only was that proposal &#8220;too late&#8221;, it was also seen as an effort to queer the pitch when it was two-thirds of the way through the acquisition process.
> 
> *&#8220;It was the Pentagon talking to the US Congress. It wasn&#8217;t Vayu Sena Bhavan talking to South Block,&#8221; said one officer, underlining that the Pentagon&#8217;s offer had little relevance to the MMRCA programme at this stage.*
> 
> The F-35 certainly did not figure around that long table where 13 officials from the defence ministry, the IAF, Hindustan Aeronautics and the Defence Research and Development Organisation who make up the contract negotiation committee for the MMRCA programme briefed the Europeans on the process to be followed.
> 
> *The acquisitions manager read out in broad terms the financial terms offered by the two sides. As the executives took notes furiously, it dawned that the formulae for pricing the aircraft presented by each was so complicated that it would take weeks to determine the values.*
> 
> *&#8220;There is no such thing as a sticker price,&#8221; said one officer. &#8220;You don&#8217;t buy aircraft like oranges, by the kilo.&#8221;
> *
> 
> He explained why it could take up to six weeks &#8211; may be till the end of December -- to determine the lowest bidder. &#8220;It&#8217;s a price for the whole package,&#8221; he said.
> 
> For the first 10 to 12 days, Air Headquarters expects there will be much back-and-forth between the IAF and the companies as clarifications are sought. The meeting determined that the financial bids would be tied to the price of the dollar quoted by State Bank of India&#8217;s Parliament Street branch on November 4.
> 
> *The IAF has sought financial quotes in eight categories, called M1 to M8. M1 is the &#8220;unit flyaway cost&#8221;, the price of each of the first 18 aircraft to be purchased &#8220;off the shelf&#8221;.*
> 
> *M2 asks for the lifecycle costs &#8211; the price of running the equipment over their lifespan of 6,000 hours &#8211; of the different components that make up the aircraft (engines, airframe, weapons pods).
> *
> 
> *M3 is &#8220;operational cost&#8221;. M4 asks for the lifecycle costs of spares, fuel usage, a &#8220;mean time between failures&#8221; (MTBF), and lubricants*.
> 
> *M5 and M6 are the estimated costs of overhaul and mid-life upgrade. M7 is the cost of the technology that the maker will transfer to Hindustan Aeronautics that will set up the assembly line were the Typhoon or the Rafale would be made under licence. M8 is the computation of total costs.*
> 
> The formula for computing the costs has an escalation cost, net present value and discounted cash flow built into it, a financial expert said.
> 
> *Air force officers, however, worry that formulae have a way of getting disrupted in the acquisition process because they get complicated by the pressures of diplomacy and/or under-the-table processes. On the other hand, they also say that if India were to award such a huge deal to a country or a collection of countries, it would be foolish to not extract diplomatic and political mileage out of the deal.* Compounding all of this is the IAF&#8217;s dire necessity for the aircraft as it stretches its assets &#8211; such as the outdated MiG 21 that make up a bulk of its inventory -- well beyond their prescribed lifespan.
> 
> Eurofighter&#8217;s chief executive officer Bernhardt Gerwert is on record as having said that the four countries that make up the EADS consortium &#8211; Germany, the UK, Spain and Italy &#8211; had &#8220;offered to make India a partner country&#8221; with an assurance of steady equation with the four top west European countries.
> 
> *France&#8217;s President, Nicolas Sarkozy, pushing Dassault&#8217;s bid with the Rafale, has extended repeated invitations to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh &#8211; who was in Paris for the G20 last week -- and had hosted India as the chief guest at the Bastille Day celebrations, a signal moment for the Indian armed forces when they marched down the Champs-Elysees at the head of the parade.
> *
> France is also banking on traditional relations &#8211; it supplied the frontline Mirage 2000 aircraft &#8211; with the IAF.
> 
> *In Vayu Sena Bhavan where the airforce wants to insulate itself from the politics of handing out an estimated $20 billion, the search for that precise formula is still on.
> *
> 
> Fighter bid like no other


 
This Man believe he is a SACHIN TENDULKAR. boundary pe baundary.


----------



## sancho

SpArK said:


> RFI news from Raytheon and this news suggest EFT may have got the upper hand.



Not really mate, chhindits summed up the news in the wrong way, check this:



> *Raytheon says keen to sell HEAT missile to IAF*
> 
> ...The Indian Air Force is evaluating the options for its MMRCA (Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft) programme. *Raytheon feels* that its missiles such as JSOW (Joint Standoff Weapon), Maverick, AMRAAM (Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missile) and AIM-9X are capable of being *integrated with any type of aircraft that the IAF may select for the programme*. The Eurofighter and Rafale are the two in the race for the $10 billion MMRCA to supply about 125 aircraft...



Business Line : Companies News : Raytheon says keen to sell HEAT missile to IAF


So it's just an offer of Raytheon, which is not even approved by the US government and they offer it for both fighters! They simply wants to have a piece of the cake that's all, but neither the French, nor the EF officials are interested in it, since they want to sell their European weapons. 
Especially the EF partners wants India not only to select the EF, but also to upgrade it and pay for the integration of weapons they will use as well, because that's how they can save more money. So it is in their interest if India pays for the integration of Storm Shadow, rather than JSOW, for Brimstone, rather than Maverick, RBS 15 rather than HARPOON..., so don't take that news too serious.




Nirvana said:


> Some More
> 
> Flickriver: Most interesting photos from Sukhoi Su-30 pool



Great link, thanks for sharing!




unicorn said:


> *DUBAI: UAE issues shock Eurofighter Typhoon request*



Personally I would say the UAE should take the EF and invest in it, to make it fitting to their requirements, it would be a win win situation for them and the EF consortium/partners, but we heared the same about additional F16 B60 orders instead of Rafale, about F18 Silent Hornets instead of Rafale and now about EF instead of Rafale. It's simply too obvious that the UAE wants to build up pressure on the French to lower the costs, because after all, they are highly interested in the Rafale and since that deal is mainly political only (strong relations to France, no need for UAE to buy new fighters, mainly to get side advantages, not new fighters), the deal will got to Rafale for sure, but they will try any trick to get as much out of the French as possible.


----------



## sancho

Santro said:


> Considering the reported snub by Sarkozy to MMS at the recent hello hi..
> I think the Rafale may lose it again.
> Moreover, the EF's distributed manufacturer base.. and the fact that it even involves the US to a large degree may give it the upper hand.
> Unless the Rafale gives a much lower price, the EF may take this as well.



Media hype, nothing else! If you are following the current situation in Europe and especially in Greece, Italy and Spain, it should be obvious that there were more important things to discuss at that sumit that Rafale or MMRCA. Even MMS should have had a higher interrest on how the financial problems in Europe will be dealt, than in negotiation about fighters, because Europe is important for the Indian economy as well. 
Besides, the EF project doesn't involve the US, all they have is some influence on partner countries, especially UK and ITA, but there was a high focus on beeing independent from the US as much as possible, because the countries learned from the past as well. That's why they developed the techs maily in Europe and why they replace most US weapons with European counterparts. If the US would have been involved in the EF, the partners couldn't provide that much ToT, just like Sweden/Saab or Israel couldn't, but that's not the case.




ramu said:


> On the contrary I have heard that EF is cheaper on a per unit basis as compared to Rafale.



Not really, most reliable reports said that it was *closer* to Rafales price than expected, but that Rafale is still cheaper! 

It's like this, the EF partners don't have the money to either fund most of the T3B upgrades, nor to buy the T3B fighters they originally wanted. So they have 2 options now:

1) cancel the orders, which means they have to pay a high penality to the consortium companies to compensate their loss

2) find another customer, that would take over these orders and in this case the partners decides the price! For example, if they initially had to pay $125 millions each fighter, they can cut the price to $100 (to make it more comparable to the Rafale price), which means a loss of $25 millions for them / fighter, but is still worth it, because they don't have to pay the penalities, can divert fundings of upgrade and save a lot of money that would have been paid for the operational costs of the fighters. 


All 4 partner countries combined initially wanted another 124 x EF T3B, which Italy already announced (not don yet) in favour for F35s, UK didn't even wanted the T3A order and even Germany has now announced that they cut the last order. That's why it shouldn't be surprising that such desperate countries are offering their orders for low cost to India/Japan, while a country like Swiss, with a small order has to pay the full price directly from the consortium and why the EF was rated in their evaluation as more expensive than the Rafale (just like in all competitions before).


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## Thundersword

So much for the rampant rumours (well, rampant throughout France anyway) that the UAE's long-delayed fighter contract was a done-deal for the Rafale.

Everything we know about the United Arab Emirates fighter modernisation plans have turned upside down within the first 24h of the Dubai Air Show. 

Quick summary: Dassault Rafale still in, Saab Gripen still out, Eurofighter Typhoon made a surprise entrance, Lockheed Martin F-16 Block 60 is now lurking and Boeing throws F-15 Silent Eagle into the mix.

And the UAE Air Force, meanwhile, confirmed it wants to buy a "next generation fighter" after 2018, when the Lockheed F-35 is, possibly, the only fighter of that general description outside of China and Russia still in production.

How did we get here? 

The Rafale has been on the UAE's shopping list since the mid-1990s, but somehow the deal keeps sliding to the right -- and now risks evaporating entirely.

Riad Kahwaji, chief executive officer of the Institute for Near East and Gulf Military Analysis (INEGMA), told The DEW Line that latest manoeuvres are a clear signal: the UAE air force thinks France's price for the Rafale is too high. Major fighter deals are never immune from politics, but this deal is purely political. The UAE is buying the Rafale to balance its reliance on US-made weapons, including its fleet of 80 Lockheed F-16 Block 60s. Perhaps thinking the UAE has no other options, Dassault may have submitted a monopolistic price, Kahwaji said. 

Even after negotiating exclusively with France for more than three years, the UAE has just re-opened the competition. The DEW Line's colleague, Craig Hoyle, broke the story on Flightglobal yesterday that the UAE issued a request for proposals to the Typhoon, setting up a second competition between the same pair of fighters vying for India's medium multi-role aircraft (MMRCA).

But the toll of the prolonged negotiations could be even greater for the Rafale. According to Kahwaji, who is well connected in Abu Dhabi, the UAE has already informed Dassault that the deal has been reduced from 60 fighters, with the balance shifted to a follow-on order of some number of F-16 Block 60s. Northrop Grumman, which supplies the APG-80 agile beam radar for the Block 60, confirmed this strategy today. Northrop told my colleague Greg Waldron that the UAE is considering a follow-on order for the Block 60. We asked Lockheed to confirm, but company officials declined.

That brings us to the last wrinkle in the competition exposed during the last few hours. Boeing now confirms that the UAE Air Force asked the US government in August or September for classified briefings on the capabilities of the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and F-15E. The Eurofighter consortium might reply: So what? The UAE asked the UK government to provide a similar briefing on the Typhoon in October, and it was the only fighter that received an RfP in the last two weeks.

Boeing, however, thinks the UAE may have other ideas for the Super Hornet or Silent Eagle. After all, if the UAE is seeking to balance its reliance on US-made fighters, shifting the final assembly line from Fort Worth, Texas, to St. Louis, Missouri, is not going to do them any favours. Instead, Boeing believes the UAE may be thinking more about the "next generation fighter" requirement. 

Lockheed, however, doesn't seem worried. The F-35 is still barred by US export control officials for being sold or even marketed to the UAE, but that restriction will not last forever. Pressed to explain why he still cannot show the UAE so much as a desk model of the F-35, Lockheed vice president of business development replied: "It's coming, it's coming." 

All of this can be little consolation to the fighter made in Merignac, France. No one doubts the French have a world-class fighter, but their negotiators have talked their way out of certain victory before. Allowing the UAE sale to slip away may not be devastating to the Rafale, with Brazil, India, Kuwait and Switzerland still in talks with the French. But such a loss would surely be long remembered in the industry as yet another can't-miss deal that only the French could mess up. 
source: #DXB11: Certain victory for Rafale turns uncertain - The DEW Line


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## Hulk

Hope we do not get the anticlimax in India too.


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## Hulk

Eurofighter - Nothing Comes Close HD - YouTube

What about typhoon? Are we sure on Rafale?

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## Thundersword

Everyone likes to have something juicy to put on the front page of their show daily so what better than when an announcement everyone thought might be made at the Dubai air show is turned on its head?

Instead of announcing that they were ready to sign the contract for up to 60 Rafales with France's Dassault Aviation, the United Arab Emirates has issued the Eurofighter consortium with a request for proposals after an October 17 UK briefing requested by the UAE.

This seems a little strange given that they are looking for a multi-role aircraft and that, today at least, the Eurofighter's air-to-ground capacities are more than limited (a 1,000 pound free-fall bomb, a Paveway 2 laser-guided 1,000 pound bomb and an E-Paveway 2 dual mode (GPS/laser) 1,000 pound bomb and this only on the British variant of the aircraft).

The announcement came as a "surprise" British officials tell Ares but they seem optimistic that the aircraft has a good chance because of the industrial benefits hat could be provided to the UAE. Presumably like the industrial benefits that Saudi Arabia was supposed to benefit from?

The officials also say that in a year's time the Eurofighter will have the air-to-surface capabilities it is now lacking. True. But this capacity is not combat proven. The Rafale's are. 

French Defense Minister Gerard Longuet, who was at the opening day of the show today, says "everyone is playing the role they're meant to," adding that "we are in the final stages of very advanced negotiations" and that he remained optimistic that a contract would be signed before the end of this year. 

And UAE officials? They are saying nothing. But it seems clear that this is a ploy to bring the price down. It seems far-fetched to let negotiations get to within a hair-breadth of signature after three years of discussion and then decide that "let's have a competition after all." 

And before you ask: I'm not pro-one aircraft and anti another. It's just that the move doesn't seem to make any sense and the issues I've noted down here just jump out at you.

Meanwhile both aircraft were performing demonstration flights. Here's a just-about focussed one of the Rafale I managed to shoot. I'll try and get an in-focus one of the Eurofigher tomorrow!

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## Thundersword

AIRSHOW-France positive on UAE Rafale deal despite competition

Nov 14 (Reuters) - The United Arab Emirates' request for technical details on the Typhoon combat jet built by European arms consortium Eurofighter has not shaken France's confidence in securing a deal to sell the Gulf state more than French 60 Rafale warplanes, the French air chief told Reuters on Monday.

"Getting information on different systems is fine," General Jean-Paul Palomeros said on Sunday on the sidelines of the Dubai Air Show. "I know that the Emirates air force is very keen with Rafale, that's for sure because they told me that they like the aircraft, they know how operational it is."

The European arms consortium Eurofighter briefed UAE officials last month on the Typhoon combat jet, in a surprise overture likely to disappoint France as it tries to finalise a sale of Dassault's Rafale at the Dubai Air Show this week.

In 2010, the UAE was reported to have requested technical details on Boeing F/A-18 war plane as well.

France is struggling to secure a foreign buyer for the aircraft, which is more developed than fourth generation combat aircraft but lags behind fifth generation multi-role fighters such as Lockheed Martin's F-35 Lightning II.

The United Arab Emirates has pressed for the aircraft's engines to be upgraded with extra thrust and for better radar, industry sources have said, but Palomeros said UAE officials are satisfied with the plane.

"In terms of operational requirements, our friends in the Emirates air force are very happy," Palomeros said.

He said the Rafale was the first aircraft to engage in NATO operations in Libya that helped topple Muammar Gaddafi.

Experts following the deal said that it was possible that the two countries are trapped in a bargaining loop.

French officials have made several positive statements about the prospects of signing a deal, but UAE officials have remained tight-lipped.

But the UAE's former air force chief, Major General Khaled al-Buainnain, said he believed the current discussions were more about the cost of the aircraft rather than technical details.

"There's no required enhancements," al-Buainnain said on Saturday. "The UAE has always special requirements. I think the enhancement issue is over, the issue is now financial and contractual. This is a massive project that needs deliberate study."

General Faouzi Abou Farhat, a former senior official of Lebanon's air force, said the Rafale was more expensive than similar warplanes available for sale such at the Typhoon and F-16.

"The issue is they can't agree on a price," he said.

The UAE said in 2008 it was in negotiations with France to buy at least 60 Rafale warplanes to replace its fleet of Mirage-2000-9 warplanes, in a deal that could be worth 10 billion euros, according to experts.
This kinda reminds me of how the MMRCA tender came into place...... Is another MMRCA emerging???


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## Vibs

*The reason why it will take 6 weeks to determine the lowest bidder.*
The acquisitions manager read out in broad terms the financial terms offered by the two sides. As the executives took notes furiously, it dawned that the formulae for pricing the aircraft presented by each was so complicated that it would take weeks to determine the values.

&#8220;There is no such thing as a sticker price,&#8221; said one officer. &#8220;You don&#8217;t buy aircraft like oranges, by the kilo.&#8221;

He explained why it could take up to six weeks &#8211; may be till the end of December -- to determine the lowest bidder. &#8220;It&#8217;s a price for the whole package,&#8221; he said.

For the first 10 to 12 days, Air Headquarters expects there will be much back-and-forth between the IAF and the companies as clarifications are sought. The meeting determined that the financial bids would be tied to the price of the dollar quoted by State Bank of India&#8217;s Parliament Street branch on November 4.

*The IAF has sought financial quotes in eight categories, called M1 to M8. M1 is the &#8220;unit flyaway cost&#8221;, the price of each of the first 18 aircraft to be purchased &#8220;off the shelf&#8221;*.

M2 asks for the lifecycle costs &#8211; the price of running the equipment over their lifespan of 6,000 hours &#8211; of the different components that make up the aircraft (engines, airframe, weapons pods).

M3 is &#8220;operational cost&#8221;. M4 asks for the lifecycle costs of spares, fuel usage, a &#8220;mean time between failures&#8221; (MTBF), and lubricants.

M5 and M6 are the estimated costs of overhaul and mid-life upgrade. M7 is the cost of the technology that the maker will transfer to Hindustan Aeronautics that will set up the assembly line were the Typhoon or the Rafale would be made under licence. M8 is the computation of total costs.

full article here
Fighter bid like no other

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## Thundersword

Now Dassault Filches Gripen's Line, Declares Rafale's 'Independence'




If the gloves weren't off all along, they are now. Just weeks ahead of a final decision on the MMRCA competition, Dassault, which doesn't usually bother with adaptive advertising, has a slew of brand new print ads that tell you a great deal about what they're seeing as the deciding factor in the Indian government's final decision. First off, it must be said, they've pinched the whole "independence" theme from Saab, which pitched its Gripen as the "independent choice" or "choice of independence" ever since it entered the multi-billion dollar competition (and after it was eliminated).

The advert above, appearing in show dailies at the ongoing Dubai Air Show, makes Dassault's so far implicit view of things, pretty plain. "When a single country makes your aircraft from nose to tail, you know what you're getting into. Rafale is not subject to multinational controls.", the copy begins -- a direct swipe at the Typhoon's four-nation heritage. It's the elegance of the business that EADS Cassidian trumpets this very multi-nation backing as a potential coup de grâce in the final stretch. With the commercial offers of both firms understood to be far less disparate than many expected, both firms clearly believe other considerations will come into play. And let's not miss the fact that both have made it utterly plain with their new adverts and statements that they believe, ultimately, in the political decision.


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## Thundersword

whatz this????? I'm curious though.... why was f-15 never offered to India???

DUBAI: Boeing throws F-15, F/A-18 into UAE fighter modernisation mix
A top Boeing executive has added a new piece to the UAE's fighter modernisation puzzle, saying that the US government has delivered classified briefings about the capabilities of the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and the F-15E Strike Eagle.

Neither aircraft has been mentioned in the past as among the options for replacing the UAE air force's fleet of Dassault Mirage 2000-9s. The UAE has been negotiating with France for the Dassault Rafale since 2008, and within the last two weeks asked the Eurofighter Typhoon to submit a rival bid.

But UAE officials are still casting an even wider net as they consider all of their fighter modernisation requirements, said Jeff Kohler, Boeing vice-president of military business development.

In August or September, the UAE formally requested classified briefings on the F-15 and F/A-18, Kohler said, which the US government obliged.

The briefings were not followed by the issuing of a request for proposals from Boeing, as Eurofighter has received. However, Kohler believes the UAE's interests in the Boeing fighters may be aimed at long-term requirements.

On 12 November, the UAE air force announced plans to acquire a "next generation fighter" in the 2018-2025 timeframe.

The Lockheed Martin F-35 joint strike fighter (JSF) has been previously named by the UAE as a potential acquisition target. But briefing requests may indicate that the F/A-18E/F and the F-15 Silent Eagle are also in the discussion, Kohler said. With the exception of all-aspect very low observability, or stealth, the F-15SE and F/A-18E/F international roadmap variant share many of the same sensor, avionics and weapons capabilities with the F-35.

"I think [UAE officials] would be interested, depending on exactly what they want," Kohler said.


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## Hulk

Question on Rafale.
By looking at the videos from Naked eyes, it appears that Rafale does not have good accelaration, when I look at ET in comparision. Will it be a disadvantage in case we use it as a interceptor?


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## Vibs

indianrabbit said:


> Question on Rafale.
> By looking at the videos from Naked eyes, it appears that Rafale does not have good accelaration, when I look at ET in comparision. Will it be a disadvantage in case we use it as a interceptor?


Rafale is not to be used as an interceptor. Naked eye is never a good way to judge acceleration.

Interceptors are normally lesser advanced and cheaper fighters in the arsenal of an airforce. Possible to deploy in large numbers and expendable.


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## dbc

indianrabbit said:


> Question on Rafale.
> By looking at the videos from Naked eyes, it appears that Rafale does not have good accelaration, when I look at ET in comparision. Will it be a disadvantage in case we use it as a interceptor?



Acceleration and throttle response is extremely important, it allows the pilot to quickly maneuver into an advantegeous position while lining up a surface strike,in a close in fight or while evading inbound missiles. The German MiG-29's have a higher top speed but USN Hornets and USAF F-16's easily beat the German MiGs in a drag race from 180 Knots to 500 Knots, superior acceleration proved decisive in BFM engagements with the Germans. No one disputes the Typhoon is a better interceptor, its primary role when the fighter was conceived was to protect western Europe from Soviet bombers but the importance of dash speed and the role of interceptors has diminished with improvements in long range detection and BVR missiles.

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## SpArK

EF @ DBX 2011


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## sudhir007

Asia Sentinel - India fighter jet deal countdown

India has initiated the final phase of what will be one of its biggest defense deals ever...

The US$11 billion contract to buy 126 multi-role combat aircrafts (MRCAs) forms a crucial cog in the country&#8217;s attempts to modernize its military capabilities.

Earlier this month the federal defense ministry began review of competing bids of the remaining two European competitors in the fray --- Eurofighter&#8217;s Typhoon and French Dassault&#8217;s Rafale, both aircrafts used successfully by NATO as part of its recent air campaign in Libya.

New Delhi has said that it will settle for one MRCA platform, leaving the loser saddled with substantial lobbying expense, high expectations but nothing in hand.

The final choice is expected to be made by the end of next month, though the Indian government could take a bit more time to announce the deal. Given the money already allotted in the annual budget for the contract, the decision should, however, be no later than March 2012, when the financial year ends.

Leaving such a large capital outlay unutilized opens the charge of delay and indecision on New Delhi that it would prefer to avoid.

The bidders have been trimmed to Rafale or Eurofighter Typhoon, while the Russian MiG-35, Swedish Saab Gripen, the American Boeing F/A-18 E/F and the Lockheed Martin F-16 combat jets have been rejected on ``technical and operational&#8217;&#8217; grounds.

Even though an unhappy America has been pushing New Delhi to re-consider its aircrafts, it is unlikely that such as process is going to happen.

India has been looking to build a fighter jet fleet that will comprise the MRCAs to replace the crash prone MiG-21 interceptors and fit between the more powerful long range Sukhoi-30 and the lower-end indigenous Tejas LCA lightweight fighters.

In a comment, the Jane&#8217;s Defense Weekly said: ``with a potential contract price of $9 billion to $14 billion, this is the single biggest competition in the global defense aviation industry at the moment and offers both bidders a much-needed opportunity in a major market.&#8217;&#8217;

The MRCA contract forms part of India&#8217;s estimated US$50 billion import-driven defense modernization exercise over the next five years that comprises submarines, tanks, missiles, air craft carriers, advanced radars, artillery gun and more.

India is making a conscious effort to move away from dependence on imports from Russia to countries such as Israel and America, apart from deepening ties with traditional partners such as France, Sweden and Britain.

The Russian defense industry is seen as increasingly outdated in the absence of effective state support. Existing Russian defense platforms in India&#8217;s possession depleted due to lack of spare parts and post sale maintenance.

Washington has been using every diplomatic and strategic means to pressure India to buy weapons from American firms. India has already signed multi billion dollar defense contracts with America comprising transport and reconnaissance aircrafts and this process is only going to grow in the future.

India&#8217;s military upgrade, meanwhile, is driven by perceived security threats from Pakistan and China. Given an incipient domestic defense armament industry, India is importing most of the arms it needs.

According to the Swedish think tank Stockholm International Peace Research Institute, India was the world&#8217;s biggest importer of arms between 2006 and 10 accounting for 9 % the global arms trade in the period.

This, however, does not mean that Pakistan and China, two countries with which India has fought wars in the past, lag their defense efforts in any way.

Pakistan continues to receive military largess from America as a partner in the global war against terror, though India has for long held that such stock piling of weapons only add to instability in the region.

New Delhi feels that US-supplied armaments to Pakistan are more potent against a conventional enemy rather than the amorphous terror networks that also spread over Afghanistan and need effective intelligence and pin pointed operations, such as the one that killed Osama Bin Laden, to neutralize.

Pakistan&#8217;s military, meanwhile continues to be supported by Beijing with several of its attack ballistic missiles with potential to destroy Indian cities a copy of those in possession of China. 

China&#8217;s military prowess, of course, continues to be far ahead of India. The country has managed to blatantly copy western arms prototypes to build effective domestic armament manufacturing capability that has reduced its arms imports dependence that is reflected in the statistics over the past few years. 

Given the closed nature of China&#8217;s polity, nobody is quite sure about the kind of investments and developments that are happening in China&#8217;s defense sphere. Some analysts believe that China&#8217;s military capabilities today could be superior to America.

Given such a scenario India has not choice but to build an effective deterrence against China while matching the military capabilities of Pakistan, against whom the security threats are more immediate


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## SpArK

For EFT fanboys.


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## marcos98

*Rafale warplane deal stalled, UAE says proposal 'unworkable'*
Reuters, Nov 16

AIRSHOW-UPDATE 3-UAE says Rafale proposal 'unworkable' | Reuters




> A long-awaited French deal for Dassault to sell at least 60 Rafale warplanes to the United Arab Emirates appeared to hit a roadblock on Wednesday after the Arab country's crown prince said proposed terms were "uncompetitive and unworkable."
> 
> The deal, which had been negotiated for the better part of a year, was thrown into doubt earlier this week when it became clear that the UAE had asked for details on a rival aircraft, the Typhoon built by the Eurofighter consortium.
> 
> "Thanks to President (Nicolas) Sarkozy, France could not have done more diplomatically or politically to secure the Rafale deal," Abu Dhabi Crown Prince Sheikh Mohamed bin Zayed, deputy of the country's armed forces, said in a statement, adding that Sarkozy's "personal intervention in this process has sustained Dassault at the forefront of our considerations."
> 
> "Regrettably Dassault seem unaware that all the diplomatic and political will in the world cannot overcome uncompetitive and unworkable commercial terms," he said.
> 
> *A source close to the deal blamed the current impasse on the "arrogance" of Dassault, despite French military officials saying they were confident about securing a deal and hopes of finalising the sale at the Dubai Air Show.
> *
> "There is a shared frustration in both the UAE and French leaderships at the apparent arrogance of Dassault," the source said.
> 
> *"Rather than using the strength of the bilateral relationship to close the deal out they are attempting to use it to hold out on pricing and a deal structure that hasn't changed in more than a year and that has been significantly bettered by all competitors."
> *
> French air chief General Jean-Paul Palomeros had told Reuters on Monday that the Emirates air force was "very keen with Rafale".
> 
> France is struggling to secure a foreign buyer for the aircraft, which is more developed than fourth generation combat aircraft but lags behind fifth generation multi-role fighters such as Lockheed Martin's F-35 Lightning II.
> 
> The United Arab Emirates has pressed for the aircraft's engines to be upgraded with extra thrust and for better radar, industry sources have said, but Palomeros said UAE officials are satisfied with the plane.


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## rockstarIN

There goes rafale......


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## rockstarIN

SpArK said:


> For EFT fanboys.
> 
> ]



It seems UAE ditched Rafale, time to swith side Sparky...


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## Roybot

If the UAE deal gets rooted, we might get even a sweeter deal from Dassault. They are desperate for orders now.

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## marcos98

Even the arabs finding Rafale pricey......

Whats the world coming to......


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## rockstarIN

roy_gourav said:


> If the UAE deal gets rooted, we might get even a sweeter deal from Dassault. They are desperate for orders now.


 
They can't, final bids were submitted, now there is no going back.

Their arrogance again and EF's surprise move to slash the rates...MRCA gone to EF


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## Thundersword

roy_gourav said:


> If the UAE deal gets rooted, we might get even a sweeter deal from Dassault. They are desperate for orders now.


but unfortunately I think we are gonna take the decision on fighters first  for once I want delayed decision


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## SpArK

rockstar said:


> They can't, final bids were submitted, now there is no going back.
> 
> Their arrogance again and EF's surprise move to slash the rates...MRCA gone to EF



Nope the negotiations will be on... its never over until its over.

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## sathya

let see whether EFT can win there, which is supposed to be even more expensive..

looks like they ll select what India is going to select and use the Indian pricing for bargain


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## the rafter

SpArK said:


> For EFT fanboys.



Surprisingly, they don't say anything about Eurofighter's:
1) A to G capability or when or if it will ever achieve?
2) How many A to G or even A to A missiles/dumb bombs did Eurofighter drop?
3) How many of the described 'REASONS' were used by Eurofighter in the past or even in the Libya war?

Eurofighter escorted Tornado's in Libya war and did reconnaissance job. It does a good job as an interceptor. Claims made are laughable...


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## sancho

roy_gourav said:


> If the UAE deal gets rooted, we might get even a sweeter deal from Dassault. They are desperate for orders now.



Actually they are not and that is the reason why they don't have to compromise too much on costs regarding the UAE.
Dassault is the frontrunner in the UAE, Swiss, India and even Brazil, Kuwait and Qatar looks good as well, so Dassault has a lot of options to export Rafale and has no competitior to frear in the UAE. Every now and then when they tried to get more advantages from the French we see media reports about UAE interested in more F16s, new F18s and now EFs, but that's nothing more than their tactic to reduce the price.
Also keep in mind that the UAE has strong political realations to the French, which are important to them, just like only the French can offer to buy back the Mirage 2000s and that the US government don't allow the integration of the Black Shaheen missiles into their fighters. All these are clear points why the one or the other won't be selected. There is only one choice for the UAE, but they want to have a lower price, that's all.




rockstar said:


> They can't, final bids were submitted, now there is no going back.
> 
> Their arrogance again and EF's surprise move to slash the rates...MRCA gone to EF



Of course they can! Both companies provided us their bids and MoD is evaluating them, but that doesn't mean they have to take these. MoD can still ask to reduce the bids if they think they are not good enough, but even I would prefer a fast decision.




the rafter said:


> Surprisingly, they don't say anything about Eurofighter's:
> 1) A to G capability or when or if it will ever achieve?
> 2) How many A to G or even A to A missiles/dumb bombs did Eurofighter drop?
> 3) How many of the described 'REASONS' were used by Eurofighter in the past or even in the Libya war?
> 
> Eurofighter escorted Tornado's in Libya war and did reconnaissance job. It does a good job as an interceptor. Claims made are laughable...



That's just PR mate, Dassault has it as well, but not so obvious and simply with the better arguements.


----------



## the rafter

> *Dassault proposal described as uncompetitive*
> 
> * UAE spoke to Eurofighter, Boeing over fighter jets
> 
> By Reed Stevenson and Praveen Menon
> 
> DUBAI, Nov 16 (Reuters) - A long-awaited French deal for Dassault to sell at least 60 Rafale warplanes to the United Arab Emirates hit a new snag on Wednesday when the Arab country's crown prince said proposed terms were "uncompetitive and unworkable".
> 
> The deal, which had been in the works since 2008, was thrown into doubt earlier this week when it became clear that the world's fourth-largest oil exporter had asked for details of a rival aircraft, the Typhoon built by the Eurofighter consortium.
> 
> "Thanks to President (Nicolas) Sarkozy, France could not have done more diplomatically or politically to secure the Rafale deal," Abu Dhabi Crown Prince Sheikh Mohamed bin Zayed, deputy of the country's armed forces, said in a statement, adding that Sarkozy's "personal intervention in this process has sustained Dassault at the forefront of our considerations."
> 
> "Regrettably Dassault seem unaware that all the diplomatic and political will in the world cannot overcome uncompetitive and unworkable commercial terms," he said.
> 
> Officials at Dassault Aviation, which builds the Rafale, declined to comment.
> 
> A government source close to the deal blamed the current impasse on the "arrogance" of Dassault, despite French military officials saying they were confident about securing a deal and hopes of finalising the sale at the Dubai Air Show.
> 
> "There is a shared frustration in both the UAE and French leaderships at the apparent arrogance of Dassault," the source said.
> 
> "Rather than using the strength of the bilateral relationship to close the deal out they are attempting to use it to hold out on pricing and a deal structure that hasn't changed in more than a year and that has been significantly bettered by all competitors."
> 
> The United Arab Emirates and its Gulf neighbours share the West's concerns that Iran is using its nuclear energy programme to develop weapons, a charge Tehran has denied. Saudi Arabia inked a deal for U.S. arms worth nearly $60 billion a year ago.
> 
> The UAE is also in talks to buy Lockheed Martin's Terminal High Altitude Area Defense, or THAAD, an advanced missile defence system.
> 
> The two deals, for the air defence and new combat planes, could be worth as much as $17 billion.
> 
> COMPETITORS SMELL OPPORTUNITY
> 
> France said earlier this week it was still confident of striking a first export deal for the Rafale and Defence Minister Gerard Longuet said Paris remained in the final stage of talks.
> 
> French air force chief General Jean-Paul Palomeros told Reuters the Emirates air force was "very keen with Rafale".
> 
> Yet after news of Eurofighter's pitch emerged, the deal appeared to be blown open to greater competition, including from Boeing's fighter jets.
> 
> The company said it had briefed UAE officials recently on its F-15 and F-18 combat planes.
> 
> "We have not responded to a detailed set of requirements or anything like that. We have been asked for information on both platforms (F-15 and F-18)," Paul Oliver, its vice-president for Middle East & Africa, International business development, Defence, Space & Security, told Reuters in an interview.
> 
> "We have provided, through the U.S. government, information on these platforms. We have been providing information off and on for over a year."
> 
> Discussions between the UAE and Dassault were nearly derailed a year ago when Boeing was first asked for technical information on its warplanes.
> 
> France is struggling to secure a foreign buyer for the Rafale, which is more developed than fourth-generation combat aircraft but lags behind fifth-generation multi-role fighters such as Lockheed Martin's F-35 Lightning II.
> 
> The UAE has pressed for the aircraft's engines to be upgraded with extra thrust and for better radar, industry sources have said, but Palomeros said UAE officials are satisfied with the plane.
> 
> Both the Rafale and Typhoon warplanes were used in Libya during NATO operations that helped topple Muammar Gaddafi.
> 
> The Eurofighter is built by Britain's BAE Systems, Finmeccanica of Italy and European aerospace group EADS on behalf of Germany and Spain.
> 
> Boeing, however, said there was increasing local interest in its combat jets.
> 
> "There has been interest in the region. We have a couple of other customers who have expressed interest in the F-18 (apart from UAE)," said Boeing's Oliver. "They don't talk to me about competitors... but it is the big news of the airshow. I believe the UAE is looking at all their options."


AIRSHOW-UPDATE 3-UAE says Rafale proposal 'unworkable' | Reuters



> *Big Bad Blow To Rafale, UAE Punches Out*
> Calling this bad news for Dassault is like saying Luca Brasi is a rough man. The unexpected words of Abu Dhabi Crown Prince Sheik Mohamed bin Zayed on Wednesday -- released through a series of innocent looking tweets, no less -- will have created an exit wound the size of a grapefruit in the psyche of the supremely jinxed French fighter programme. A splendid fighter plane that nobody wants to buy. With this latest, decidedly rough ejection by the UAE, there's no telling where things stand for Dassault.
> 
> If you haven't been keeping up, France said it was poised to win a $10-billion deal from the UAE for 60 Rafales, a deal it has negotiating for years. On Nov 12, a day ahead of the Dubai Air Show, it became known that the "near-final" deal wasn't actually a deal at all -- and that arch-rivals Eurofighter had been invited to submit details about the Typhoon (for which they'll be in a mad scramble right now, I imagine). And today, boom. A handful of tweets by the Crown Prince brought it down with all the gentleness of a guillotine. Sample this:
> 
> "_Thanks to President Sarkozy, France could not have done more diplomatically or politically to secure the Rafale deal. Regrettably Dassault seem unaware that all the diplomatic and political will in the world cannot overcome uncompetitive and unworkable commercial terms._" (Somehow, "ouch" doesn't quite say it.)
> 
> Reuters says its sources pointed to Dassault's "arrogance" as the reason behind frustration both in the French government and in the UAE. Dassault is presumably in too much shock to comment officially just yet, or may be, at the very least making an effort to confirm that this is indeed curtains in the Emirates. Either way, as FlightGlobal's Steve Trimble wrote a few days ago, "uch a loss would surely be long remembered in the industry as yet another can't-miss deal that only the French could mess up."



Livefist: Big Bad Blow To Rafale, UAE Punches Out


----------



## SBD-3




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## shanixee

Will india be getting AESA Radar and as far as upgradation is concern are they upgrading Mig 29 and M2K to AESA...??


----------



## SpArK

shanixee said:


> Will india be getting AESA Radar and as far as upgradation is concern are they upgrading Mig 29 and M2K to AESA...??



NOPE............. no AESA for migs or M2K's .


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## shanixee

SpArK said:


> NOPE............. no AESA for migs or M2K's .


 
Thanks for the reply bro....the bid for EF2000 and Rafale...is it including the price of AESA radar or excluding because both of the countries have not developed AESA radar uptill now..


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## SpArK

shanixee said:


> Thanks for the reply bro....the bid for EF2000 and Rafale...is it including the price of AESA radar or excluding because both of the countries have not developed AESA radar uptill now..



Includes . 

Both have developed AESA and Rafale AESA has moved to production phase, 

EF is expected in 2 years time i guess.


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## proud_indian

i know spark sancho and many more won't agree with me

But as the things are unfolding euro canards is seems to be the mmrca winner

Eurofighter all the way


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## angeldemon_007

> Thanks for the reply bro....the bid for EF2000 and Rafale...is it including the price of AESA radar or excluding because both of the countries have not developed AESA radar uptill now..


Yeah its included, in-fact Dassault has started producing Rafale with AESA from 2010...


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## aanshu001

whatever people say I prefer Rafale.

1. Once deal done complete reliance no get back. 
2. Need less time to master the plane due to similarities with Mirage 2000. 
3. believe it or not it will be a possible nuclear platform ( Mirage 2000 was lone platform before missile and MKI was thr).


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## sancho

SpArK said:


> EF is expected in 2 years time i guess.



Two more years for the final prototype, at least 4 more years for an operational version.




proud_indian said:


> i know spark sancho and many more won't agree with me
> 
> But as the things are unfolding euro canards is seems to be the mmrca winner
> 
> Eurofighter all the way



First of all, Eurocanards is a term that describes the 3 European fighters with canards, Eurofighter, Gripen and Rafale, not the EF only.
Secondly, Spark and I do like the EF too, but there are clear reasons why the Rafale is the better choice for India and that's why we support it. EF on the other side is 75% supported by hearsay, PR and media hypes, but when you look at the real capabilities of it and that compare it from the point of view of Indian forces, there is hardly any reason to support it and since you mentioned the "current unflodlings", it seems that you belongs to the 75% as well. See it this way, what actually has happend that makes the EF to the front runner or more suited for Indian forces?

Is it cheaper that Rafale? No it isn't, it is just offered *in INDIA* (nowhere else it was that close to Rafales price!) with a lower price difference as many people expected, but remains to be the most expensive 4.5 gen fighter!

Does it get more multi role capable? No it doesn't, it still is useful only for air defence and *very limited* CAS!

Is the AESA radar developed now, are the problems with spare supply solved, does it have more future now, has the UAE rejected the Rafale, did they invited the EF into a competition? No, no, no, no and no...


At the end you are free to have your own opinion of course, but I would suggest to base it on facts, not on media, or manufacturer hypes.

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## ptltejas

I think agm 129 like missile could do some thing. or nirbhay with 2000+ km. the most challanging work for nirbhay will be himalaya ranges.


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## proud_indian

sancho said:


> Two more years for the final prototype, at least 4 more years for an operational version.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> First of all, Eurocanards is a term that describes the 3 European fighters with canards, Eurofighter, Gripen and Rafale, not the EF only.
> Secondly, Spark and I do like the EF too, but there are clear reasons why the Rafale is the better choice for India and that's why we support it. EF on the other side is 75% supported by hearsay, PR and media hypes, but when you look at the real capabilities of it and that compare it from the point of view of Indian forces, there is hardly any reason to support it and since you mentioned the "current unflodlings", it seems that you belongs to the 75% as well. See it this way, what actually has happend that makes the EF to the front runner or more suited for Indian forces?
> 
> Is it cheaper that Rafale? No it isn't, it is just offered *in INDIA* (nowhere else it was that close to Rafales price!) with a lower price difference as many people expected, but remains to be the most expensive 4.5 gen fighter!
> 
> Does it get more multi role capable? No it doesn't, it still is useful only for air defence and *very limited* CAS!
> 
> Is the AESA radar developed now, are the problems with spare supply solved, does it have more future now, has the UAE rejected the Rafale, did they invited the EF into a competition? No, no, no, no and no...
> 
> 
> At the end you are free to have your own opinion of course, but I would suggest to base it on facts, not on media, or manufacturer hypes.




sancho i have been reading each and every discussion not only on this thread but all the thread ever started on this forum and many more for last 3 years. That is the reason I have just 200 post under my belt as I always read seldom write.

Even I mentioned your name in my post as i always eager to read your arguments and counter arguments in favor of rafale.
Recently I read the thread started by Dr.Somnath (comparison of rafale and eurofighter) closely.

I am very much aware of multirole capabilities of rafale in current configuration. But i am also optimistic about the the capabilities (presently on paper) of eurofighter, such as better radar, better engine and better *Industrial Partnership* terms(u mentioned somewhere).

I have read so many good things in favor of Eurofighter as well as rafale in last 3 years.

I might be biased towards eurofighter but this is my opinion and i do stand by it.

one question to you

Is it right that we won't be allowed to carry nukes on eurofighter but this is not the case with rafale?


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## sancho

Interesting!




> *The contract of sale of Rafale to the UAE at a critical juncture.*
> 
> Alain Juppé to conduct a mission the last chance. Is it too late?...
> 
> 
> Juppé to &#8203;&#8203;maneuver
> 
> Blowing the matter to his successor in the Ministry of Defence Gerard Longuet, Alain Juppe was commissioned by Nicolas Sarkozy to lead a double negotiation. Decided after a visit to the Elysee Palace of Sheikh Mohamed bin Zayed mid-September, it is first to carry through the discussion of the Rafale to the UAE, as revealed by the daily Les Echos on 11 October.
> 
> *And second, these negotiations should allow to resell the new Libyan army the 63 Mirage-9 with the Emirati Air Force intends to discard (for gold!) Before buying the Rafale.* This information confirmed from a reliable source in Paris was disclosed in early November by the newsletter Lebanese Tactical Report, very knowledgeable about military affairs Arab and Middle Eastern...



Google Übersetzer

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## sancho

proud_indian said:


> sancho i have been reading each and every discussion not only on this thread but all the thread ever started on this forum and many more for last 3 years. That is the reason I have just 200 post under my belt as I always read seldom write.
> Even I mentioned your name in my post as i always eager to read your arguments and counter arguments in favor of rafale.
> Recently I read the thread started by Dr.Somnath (comparison of rafale and eurofighter) closely.
> 
> I am very much aware of multirole capabilities of rafale in current configuration. But i am also optimistic about the the capabilities (presently on paper) of eurofighter, such as better radar, better engine and better Industrial Partnership terms(u mentioned somewhere).




As I said, there is nothing wrong with your opinion, I am only saying, don't let yourself confuse from hypes like the current in the media, or wrong infos on the internet and Dr. Somnath comparision was the perfect example for what I said, because most of it was based on estimations only and not on facts.
I would be optimistic about the EF in terms of multi role capabilities as well, IF someone would be ready to pay for the development and integration, but that is not the case, infact they need us to do so, which makes EF more expensive and requires more time to be useful for IAF. 
When I see that IAF can induct a fully capable MRCA even in 2013 if necessary and that a comparable EF version will only be available around 2018, I ask myself, why should we limit IAF capabilities for so long and at higher costs (unit + operational + upgrade), just for the hope it could be better than Rafale by then? Rafale is getting better at a much faster pace then EF, so can we only take EFs future capability into account? During the Paris airshow we heared about future upgrades of Rafale with conformal AESA arrays, reduced RCS, increased thrust, possibly even with TVC too. So either we take those capabilities for both fighters to account that will be available for us in 2014/15 when the MMRCAs will be inducted into IAF, or we compare both on future capabilities, which imo doesn't make much sense now by the lack of reliable specs. However, as we all know, the EF is not even close to Rafales capabilities in 2014/15 and that's why EF supporters often use the future capabilities, but if you want the best for IAF, you have took compare on equal basis.

The industrial partnership is not necessarily better, because the French has already the better base in India, but the fact that the EF consortium has bigger companies in their consortium, makes them able to provide a higher ammount of offsets in return. Take the Swiss competition as an example:



> "*Though, the Eurofighter consortium is said to be leading on the offsets ground with about 6.6 billions while the Rafale International proposition would be around 5 billions.*
> 
> 
> The rafale offsets offer would include :
> 
> A Rafale final assembly line and maintenance center
> The production of structural items
> The Mica missile production
> The development of the Rafale HMD, the OSF-NG and Spectra self defense system
> Several othe military or civilian industrial cooperations (CFM-56 engine, Falcon business jets, military and civilian avionics)"



Rafale News: Switzerland, National council approved the new fighter jet acquisition


Imo the only chance for EF to win MMRCA is great industrial package, not the fighter itself, because it offers way too less for way too much money in that field. They compromised on price a lot now to make it more comparable (not better!) to Rafale and I expect a good industrial package as well, to counter the technical shortcomings. But we will have to see if that is enough to beat the better overall package of the French:

- better fighter for Indian forces
- cheaper and easier to operate in IAF
- available industrial base, with JV and co-developments
- more reliable strategic partner for India





proud_indian said:


> one question to you
> 
> Is it right that we won't be allowed to carry nukes on eurofighter but this is not the case with rafale?



We are talking about a bomb here, since we have no missiles with nuclear warhead yet and any fighter can integrate such a bomb. Even if the EF partners (especially Germany) would be highly oppose such a move, they can't really do anything against it when we already have the fighter. However, the more interesting question is, would we use the EF in such a role? I highly doubt it, since it is not designed for strikes or true mulit role capability. Strike is only a secondary option for it and we saw it in Libya first hand, that it might be good in escorting such a nuclear strike package, but not necesarrily as the strike fighter. Rafale on the other hand was developed with a dedicated nuclear strike version and one of it's main qualities is the penetration of enemy air space with a low RCS, IR and EM signature, its passive sensor package, the better low level flight capabilities and not to mention the fully capable twin seat version. If IAF has an interest to use the winning MMRCA in any strike role (which is very likely), they only choice can be Rafale, since it is simply in a different class in that area!

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## ramu

If India looks vulnerable for a possible attack from China between now and 2016, it is better for India to go for Rafale. Though I like the Euro Fighter more, threat perception may be an important factor in the decision making.

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## sudhir007

Livefist: MMRCA Winner Will Emerge Mid-December: IAF Chief

Indian Air Force chief Air Chief Marshal N.A.K. Browne, currently in Bangalore for the station commanders conference, spoke to the press a couple of hours ago, where he was (surprise, surprise) asked about the M-MRCA. Here's what he said: "We're calculating very hard. A lot of work is going on. In another four weeks, we should be able to wrap it up. No matter how long it takes, we have to get it right. There are a lot of complicated figures. But mid-December we should have a good sense of who gets selected."


----------



## sancho

*Crossposting from the MP forum (credits to Olybrius and Xav):*







http://www.defense-aerospace.com/dae/sponsors/sponsor_rafale/img/fox3_15.pdf








http://www.defense-aerospace.com/dae/sponsors/sponsor_rafale/img/fox3_16.pdf



*SPECTRA*



> Such was the confidence of the French aircrews in their new mount that *all missions were conducted without any support from dedicated electronic warfare and SEAD (Suppression of Enemy Air Defences) assets*: thanks to its Spectra state-of-the-art electronic warfare/self-defence suite, the Rafale was able to operate at will in a dangerous environment, against a dense network of deadly surface-to-air missile systems. *Even more significant is the fact that the Rafale was able to accurately locate enemy air-defence systems and engage them.*"
> 
> 
> "Such is the quality of the Spectra electronic warfare suite that the *Rafale literally disappeared from the radar screens of the Libyan Air Force while performing soft kills on the enemy radar systems*. Spectra relies on advanced jamming modes and jamming techniques to defeat
> hostile weapon systems and to hide the progression and whereabouts of the fighter."



*And many more interesting infos on Rafale its techs and weapons!*

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## sancho

ramu said:


> If India looks vulnerable for a possible attack from China between now and 2016, it is better for India to go for Rafale. Though I like the Euro Fighter more, threat perception may be an important factor in the decision making.



Until 2018 buddy, because that is the timeframe the EF needs to be as multi role capable as the Rafale is today! It will be useful to defend our airspace till, but not for any offensive attack at ground targets, be it in SEAD/DEAD, deep strikes, anti ship, not even recon missions could be done with it. Keep in mind, India is not a Gulf state that has these fighters for fun and pride reasons mainly, we need them to defend ourselfs and that's why they have to improve our forces not limit them.
I still do think that the industrial offers of the EF consortium would be interesting for Indian counterparts, but the main priority should be our defending our country and that's where Rafale is simply the better choice.

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## sudhir007

sancho said:


> Until 2018 buddy, because that is the timeframe the EF needs to be as multi role capable as the Rafale is today! It will be useful to defend our airspace till, but not for any offensive attack at ground targets, be it in SEAD/DEAD, deep strikes, anti ship, not even recon missions could be done with it. Keep in mind, India is not a Gulf state that has these fighters for fun and pride reasons mainly, we need them to defend ourselfs and that's why they have to improve our forces not limit them.
> I still do think that the industrial offers of the EF consortium would be interesting for Indian counterparts, but the main priority should be our defending our country and that's where Rafale is simply the better choice.



Hi sancho
can you give some detail what is longer range AAM offer by France with Rafale. aspect MICA which is round 60km only ???
im not count Meteor coze this is common missile for both EF & Rafale


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## angeldemon_007

> "Though, the Eurofighter consortium is said to be leading on the offsets ground with about &#8364;6.6 billions while the Rafale International proposition would be around &#8364;5 billions.
> 
> 
> The rafale offsets offer would include :
> 
> A Rafale final assembly line and maintenance center
> The production of structural items
> The Mica missile production
> The development of the Rafale HMD, the OSF-NG and Spectra self defense system
> Several othe military or civilian industrial cooperations (CFM-56 engine, Falcon business jets, military and civilian avionics)"


Are these facts true ? Where did you got these facts ? AESA Radar not included in rafale offset offer ?


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## sancho

sudhir007 said:


> Hi sancho
> can you give some detail what is longer range AAM offer by France with Rafale. aspect MICA which is round 60km only ???
> im not count Meteor coze this is common missile for both EF & Rafale



Rafale F3+ is offered with

MICA IR - 60 to 80Km depending on source
MICA EM - 60 to 80Km depending on source
METEOR - 100 to 150Km depending on source


EF T3A/T3B is offered with

Iris-t / ASRAAM - up to 30Km 
METEOR - 100 to 150Km depending on source

(older versions of AIM 9 and AIM 120 were integrated, but will be phased out soon and are not available in Indian forces, which makes them unimportant anyway)




angeldemon_007 said:


> Are these facts true ? Where did you got these facts ? AESA Radar not included in rafale offset offer ?



Check the link I provided, this was reported for the Swiss competition!


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## sancho

Rafale newsblog sums up the latest infos from the Fox 3 articles I posted on the last page:



> *Rafale program updates*
> 
> RBE-2 ASA
> 
> Performance evaluation passed
> *A2A detection/range exeed expectations
> A2G and terrain following modes also tested
> First production Rafale C delivered with an AESA in 2012*
> First production Rafale M delivered with an AESA in 2013
> Qualification expected early 2013
> First French Airforce squadron operational with the AESA in early 2014...



Rafale News: Rafale program updates


More news:



> *M88-4E engine program on track*
> 
> ...*End of 2011 : delivery of the first production-standard M88-4E*
> 
> "The aim of this program is to extend the engines service life and time between inspections for several key parts. Upgrades are planned to the high-pressure compressor and high-pressure turbine"



Rafale News: M88-4E engine program on track


And some beautiful pics:

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## Jackass2

Sancho sir , Is Rafale capable of super-cruising , don't know I read somewhere ?


----------



## Novice09

Jackass2 said:


> Sancho sir , Is Rafale capable of super-cruising , don't know I read somewhere ?



Fourth generation jet fighter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*The Dassault Rafale can supercruise, in dry power, even with four missiles and a 1,250-liter belly drop tank and even in the naval version (Rafale M).*

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## sancho

Jackass2 said:


> Sancho sir , Is Rafale capable of super-cruising , don't know I read somewhere ?



As Novice09 showed, it can and although it was rumored before, these detailed infos came out only at the Paris airshow this year. However, SC is a capability that is only important in A2A roles, with lighter weapon loads, so in most normal configs it won't play a big role at least for 4.5 gen fighters.


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## sudhir007

Eurofighter, Rafle extend dogfight from India to UAE to win commercial tender-Politics/Nation-News-The Economic Times on Mobile

Eurofighter and Rafale, the two finalists in the fray for India's big combat jet order, have extended their dogfight to the UAE to win another commercial tender.

So far, only the French Dassualt's Rafale appeared to be in the bidding for an order for 60 aircraft for the UAE Air Force but a spokesman for EADS Cassidian, the four-nation consortium which makes the aircraft, confirmed that the company had received a formal Request for Proposal (RfP) a few weeks back and that "we are working hard to deliver a response".

Who else has been invited is not known but sources in Lockheed Martin told India Strategic defence magazine (..:: India Strategic ::.. Home Page: The authoritative monthly on Defence and Strategic Affairs.) that the company was in discussions here "to supply additional aircraft." It is not clear if these "additional" cover a few more, or are the replacement for 60 Mirages that the UAE wants to phase out.

Boeing has also made presentations to the UAE on its F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and F-15E Strike Eagle, but again, there are no firm indications on whether the RfP has been sent to Boeing also.

Notably, Rafale had completed all the mandatory flight tests and discussions were on only to fix the price. But on Nov 16, Deputy Supreme Commander of the UAE Armed Forces, Shaikh Mohammed bin Zayed al Nahyan, said at the Dubai Airshow that Dassault's proposal was "uncompetitive and unworkable".

The French company declined comment.

A Eurofighter spokesman, though, confirmed that Britain, one of the partners in the project, had made a presentation to the UAE Air Force on October 17 and after that, the RfP was issued to EADS Cassidian, the four-nation consortium that includes Germany, Britain, Italy and Spain.

It may be recalled that the UAE had purchased 80 F-16 Desert Falcons from Lockheed Martin configured with Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) and other combat radars in 2000. All of them, designated Block 60 due to specific and exclusive UAE requirements and which cost nearly 25 to 30 percent more than the US Air Force'sown F 16s, were delivered beginning 2004 for about $8.5 billion.

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## sudhir007

*For Rafale fan Please check this Link*
TurboSquid - HD Gallery - Rafale - Product ID 599675

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## GORKHALI



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## sudhir007



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## Nirvana

*For Eurofighter Fans here , If Any ?  *

Eurofighter Over Iconic Burj Khalifa !


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## brational

Awesome photographs.. Rafale Rocks!


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## sudhir007

No shock and awe left in the air : North News - India Today

Within a matter of weeks India is expected to take a decision to buy 126 medium multirole combat aircraft (MMRCA). The original approval was for aircraft worth $ 8.52 billion, the current estimate, for the aircraft will be either the Eurofighter or the Rafale, could be twice that sum. And if the rupee behaves the way it does, the figure could be even higher.

The MMRCA will be India's frontline fighter only for two years and then it is expected to be supplanted by the Russian fifth- generation fighter, which, too, India plans to acquire in numbers. Whether or not the country can afford what will easily be one of the most powerful air forces in the world by 2020 is another matter.

And if we go by what Martin Van Creveld, one of the world's leading military historians, has to say, we may be simply throwing good money away. Air power, argues this original and authoritative study, has never lived up to the billing given to it by its proponents who have been carried away by the image of the men who fly the superb aerial fighting machines.

Instead of being carried away with the technological wonder of aerial machines, Van Creveld has measured air power in terms of military effectiveness in relation to the other services, as well as where it eventually counts - against the enemy.

Ironically, the principal object of air power hubris is the United States, whose air force is by far the most powerful in the world. In 2002 it overwhelmed Iraq with the "shock and awe" of its air force. It did wipe out Saddam Hussein's forces, but it unleashed another adversary - the guerrilla - who has never quite been vulnerable to air power.

The problem, as Van Creveld demonstrates in a survey that begins with Italians throwing hand grenades at Libyan guerrillas in 1911, and ends with the ongoing war in Afghanistan, is that air power either delivers too little, or too much.

It is too little when it fails to interdict the North Vietnamese supply lines to the South in the 1960s, or to check the Taliban with drones and round- theclock surveillance in Afghanistan. And it is clearly too much when it wipes out entire cities, as in the case of Hiroshima and Nagasaki in that fateful August of 1945.

His claim is not that airpower was never effective. But that in the historical perspective, it has already peaked in World War II, when, as he points out, "no largescale military operation that did not enjoy adequate air cover stood any chance of success." With the spread of nuclear weapons, the ultimate threat of total destruction that air power could bring, itself became absurd, because it created a situation where both the attacker and the attacked would be obliterated.

The problem in fighting the wars of today is of a different kind. The rise of the global media has made strikes against cities and civilians a taboo. Despite the super-accuracy of UAV-borne missiles, there are civilian casualties

According to US figures, 2,157 Taliban and Al Qaeda leaders and cadre have been killed in drone strikes in the tribal regions of Pakistan, as against just 138 civilians since 2006. But as any one one familiar with the issue knows, the propaganda value that the Taliban have got from these "collateral" deaths has been enormous. The fact is that there is no such thing as a surgical strike, especially not in crowded Asian environments.

The IAF may be still growing and buying top-of-the-line fighters as though the country's treasury is bottomless, but other air forces are, as Van Creveld points out, in decline. Take America's F-22, the world's best fighter (though grounded at present because of an embarrassing little glitch). The original plan was for the US to acquire 750 aircraft, but the number was first lowered to 648 and then successively to 442, 339 and 277, till the previous US Secretary of Defence decided to terminate the programme at 187. The Eurofighter, too, is going that way, especially now that the European economies must retrench.

The issue is not that the aircrafts are not good - they are first-rate - but whether or not the expense involved in buying and maintaining them is commensurate with the kind of missions they will be involved in.

At the end of the day, there is a genuine need for leaders to balance their needs with their budgets, as well as stay focused on the outcomes. Armies, as Van Creveld points out, are still needed to conquer and pacify enemy territory, and navies remain the best means of carrying heavy loads across long distances and projecting power abroad.

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## sancho

*News from the Swiss competition:
*



> *Gripen fighter jet with unsatisfactory grades*
> 
> Two evaluation reports of the secret Switzerland advise against purchasing the Swedish Gripen aircraft.
> 
> ...The two classified confidential reports contradict this view but clearly now. According to the Evaluation Report 2009 is the lowest priced airplane among the providers failed clear, namely the Swedish Saab Gripen. *The report says: "The Rafale is the only aircraft that has met the requirements of the Air Force in all types of applications."*...
> 
> 
> ...As "unsatisfactory" indicate the jet Armasuisse experts and Air Force Gripen in the areas of "air-air" (ie in the air defense and combat against other pilots) as well as in "air-ground". With "air-ground" the fight against ground targets is meant from the air.
> 
> Thus is the modernized version of the Gripen, the MS means 21, not in a position to compete with two other combat aircraft Rafale and Euro Fighter. Gripen has been achieved in all areas of requirements, minimum objectives. Even worse Gripen cut off in the first evaluation report: *"The performance of the Gripen was assessed in air-air engagements as well as attack missions as insufficient," it says already in the English-language introduction.*...
> 
> ...The announced intent of Air Force and Defense Maurer is to continue to rely on a one type policy. *This means that the newly procured fighter jet to replace the first Tiger outdated, and later the F/A-18*...



(Google translated)

Google Übersetzer





> *Switzerland competion as seen by the Swiss themselves*
> 
> ...During his Interview, Fernand Carell, former Swiss Air Force chief and Mirage IIIS pilot, *ranks the Rafale first on technical merits*, then the Eurofighter and last, the Gripen :
> 
> "*At the operiational level, the Rafale is the leader" He says.
> 
> According to him, the Swiss pilots would prefer the Rafale but he concedes that the final decision will be political and economical.*
> 
> To the question what car would you compare your aircraft to, the Rafale pilot answer is quite funny :
> 
> Eurofighter pilot : A ferrari
> Gripen.pilot : A porsche
> Rafale pilot : *James Bond Aston Martin or Batmobile*



Rafale News: Video, Switzerland competion as seen by the Swiss themselves


Sums it up quiet well, the Rafale is clearly the best non 5th. gen fighter available, because it can do it all, instead of doing just some things and that at least at cheaper cost than for the EF. That's why it's constantly rated higher the the EF in competitions and but as the former Swiss Air Chief said, at the end these competitions will not decided by the forces, but by politicians and they have different priorities.
Switzerland is imo the most most likely export customer of Rafale, next to the UAE, because the package the French seems to provide has it all. The best fighter, at costs fitting to their budget, industrial and political advatages (Swiss pilots can train in France and use French air space too) and since they now want to replace all their fighters with the winner, the chances for Rafale are even better.


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## DrSomnath999

Jackass2 said:


> Sancho sir , Is Rafale capable of super-cruising , don't know I read somewhere ?







u better read here
http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-...s-analysis-our-last-two-mmrca-contenders.html


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## DrSomnath999

Nirvana said:


> *For Eurofighter Fans here , If Any ?  *
> 
> Eurofighter Over Iconic Burj Khalifa !



*and now how about this photograph*

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## POPS

sudhir007 said:


> *For Rafale fan Please check this Link*
> TurboSquid - HD Gallery - Rafale - Product ID 599675



Kindly Pardon my ignorance but i beleive this rafale is a bit broader & better locking than the one in MRCA competition , if some person can help me it will be highly appericiated


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## sudhir007

Google Translate

*The Federal Council has chosen today as the new Swedish Gripen fighter aircraft, said sources familiar with the matter. *

A decision should be announced before the end of the year. The Federal Council would have taken at its meeting this morning in favor of the cheaper of the three planes in the running: the Swedish Gripen, said sources familiar with the matter at Newsnet / tagesanzeiger.ch.

The acquisition of 22 aircraft of this type will cost about 3 billion francs, or CHF 1 billion less than if the choice was the Rafale or Eurofighter.

The question of the purchase price will have played a role, given the low financial flexibility available to the Confederation.

For this reason, the Federal Council had deferred to the 2015 purchase of 22 aircraft that will replace the Tiger. At its autumn session, the Parliament has pushed the government to make a quick decision.

If the announcement of the purchase of 22 new aircraft is confirmed, it is likely that budget cuts and savings measures will be announced in other areas, such as education, training and research, the field agricultural or infrastructure spending.

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## angeldemon_007

Gripen is good fighter jet and cheap... we should have considered purchasing it. We could bend Swedish arm as much as we want and they are also willing to give whatever we want.

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## sudhir007

angeldemon_007 said:


> Gripen is good fighter jet and cheap... we should have considered purchasing it. We could bend Swedish arm as much as we want and they are also willing to give whatever we want.


May be yes but we want best fighter plane not cheap and remember Gripen NG which they offer is only in testing mode. If im not ronge it will come at production in 2015 may be 1-2yr later we have our own LCA-mk2 which is very close to Gripen.


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## Lord Of Gondor

angeldemon_007 said:


> Gripen is good fighter jet and cheap... we should have considered purchasing it. We could bend Swedish arm as much as we want and they are also willing to give whatever we want.


IIRC,the swiss air chief or some other high ranking official stated that the Gripen did not qualify.


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## Thundersword

guys check this out 




courtesy : livefist


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## angeldemon_007

> May be yes but we want best fighter plane not cheap and remember Gripen NG which they offer is only in testing mode. If im not ronge it will come at production in 2015 may be 1-2yr later we have our own LCA-mk2 which is very close to Gripen.


Well the EF version offered to us is also getting ready by 2015 then whats the problem if Gripen comes in 2015 ? Also Gripen NG will enter in production by 2017 but it will enter into production by 2013-2015 if India chooses it. Also we should be a little realistic, EF and rafAle are expensive aircrafts and we don't have money or even if we have we have lot of things, so we should not spend everything in MMRCA.



> IIRC,the swiss air chief or some other high ranking official stated that the Gripen did not qualify.


Brazilian Air Force favorite is also Gripen but their government is looking towards Rafale because of their precious deal with French.


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## no_koadsheding_plz

wow page 420,,not a good number


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## the rafter

Sorry for the re-post


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## mastaan

Thundersword said:


> guys check this out
> 
> 
> 
> 
> courtesy : livefist



Hi Thunder, 

First, it is not readable clearly on my computer and for some strange reason, I can't even download it to read it.... So, apologies for making a comment without even reading it

Second, this looks like an Apples versus Oranges stuff... To see a generation 4+ fighter alongside futuristic, and much advanced (atleast they are envisaged so) 5th generation fighters is reason enough not to waste your time on such an article (even if it means that typhoon can or can not mature into something huge)... MMRCA has a distinct need and timeline requirement. To even bring in discussion around for a new and still on the design board fighter for those relevant timelines and critical current needs is a crime and thus we shouldn't even look at any futuristic scenario for MMRCA... We need a fighter now and it should be worthy and relevant for the next decade and that is just the two questions... everything else (including developmental capabilities or relevance or future competition) is just irrelevant and a distraction... Wouldn't your agree? my 2 cents


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## the rafter

> *RPT-Swiss opt for Saab's Gripen fighter jets - paper*
> 
> Nov 30 (Reuters) - Switzerland has chosen to replace its fighter jet fleet with Swedish defence and aerospace group Saab's JAS-39 Gripen, Swiss newspaper Tagesanzeiger reported on Wednesday, citing unnamed sources close to the government.
> 
> Neutral Switzerland has wrangled for the past three years over whether to replace its ageing Northrop F-5E/F Tiger fighters, purchased in 1976 and 1981, with up to 33 new aircraft.
> 
> Saab shares were up 8.5 percent to 117.10 Swedish crowns by 1345 GMT after the newspaper report.
> 
> The newspaper said the cost of purchasing 22 jets would be about 3 billion Swiss francs ($3.3 billion), *1 billion less than the same number of rival models would cost.*
> 
> In September, the Swiss lower house of parliament approved a 5 billion francs defence budget for 2013 to finance a 100,000 strong army and the purchase of new fighter jets.
> 
> Other bidders included the Rafale built by french company Dassault Aviation and EADS's Anglo-German-Italian Eurofighter Typhoon. ($1 = 0.9207 Swiss franc) (Reporting by Caroline Copley; Editing by Dan Lalor)


RPT-Swiss opt for Saab's Gripen fighter jets - paper | Reuters

Sorry for the re-post, immaterial of what has been said by the MOD, price could be important deciding factor for MMRCA.


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## Storm Force

Gripen NG was only 25% cheaper. 

But i envisage both rafale & typhoon are MORE THAN 25% superior to NG.

GRIPENS LACK OF RANGE PAYLOAD ETC wud be wrong choice for IAF they need a twin engined MMRCA


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## kingdurgaking

seems to be a bad news for dassault


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## sancho

angeldemon_007 said:


> Gripen is good fighter jet and cheap... we should have considered purchasing it. We could bend Swedish arm as much as we want and they are also willing to give whatever we want.



Depends on what "good" means! For Switzerland, a country that is neutral, has no border issues with other countries, don't participates in any kind of military interventions, with a pure need of air policing capability...

...even 2nd hand Mirage 2000s, Gripen C/D, F16 B52s would be more than good fighters, but that doesn't mean it is a good fighter in comparison with other latest fighters and the evaluations showed this:






Rafale News: Switzerland, Armasuisse officialy ranks the Rafale first


As you can see, technically the Gripen did not even met the minimum requirments of their air force and even the government officials, points out why they really took this decision:



> *Sale bang for the Rafale in Switzerland (updated)
> The Helvetic Confederation prefer the Gripen for reasons of price ... against the advice of military *
> 
> Fernand Carrel, the commander of the Swiss Air Force, regretted the choice of the Federal Council. "All experts know that the Rafale is the best," he said on Radio Suisse Romande.
> 
> The Swiss authorities have explained that "*financial arguments have played a decisive role in choosing the type of aircraft*.



Google Übersetzer

For India Gripen was a no go from the start, too less performance (confirmed by Swiss and Brazilian evaluations), too less industrial and political advantages and waaaay too close to Tejas. A procurement of Gripen had killed it without any doubt!

However, it's a very surprising decision from Swiss government, but good for Saab, because it now has some future potential again.

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## sancho

angeldemon_007 said:


> Well the EF version offered to us is also getting ready by 2015 then whats the problem if Gripen comes in 2015 ?



The difference between Gripen E/F and the Eurofighter T3B or Rafale F3+ is, that the earlier is a complete new fighter that is not even available today, while the latter are just the same fighters that are operational now or within the next few years, but with some upgrades...
Gripen E/F is based on older Gripen versions but is not just an upgraded version, it has a new airframe, new engine, new radar, new IRST (had no IRST before) and upgraded avionics. That's why the risk in buying it is way higher than buying an EF or Rafale and why most of the performance and cost calculations are only estimated today. There should be no doubt that it will be cheaper to operate than EF or Rafale and that's why Swiss seems to have chosen it, regardless of risks or performance issues. India and Indian forces can't efford to take such a risk with LCA, FGFA and other aircrafts under development, just like they can't take the risk of performance issues in this neighbourhood.



POPS said:


> Kindly Pardon my ignorance but i beleive this rafale is a bit broader & better locking than the one in MRCA competition , if some person can help me it will be highly appericiated



That's no real picture, but a computer render, that's why it looks different, but nice anyway.


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## sudhir007

Old New but relevant


> Suisse : Le Rafale en grand favori ? : avia news
> The Rafale your favorites:
> 
> The industrial partnership:
> 
> The Rafale International Industrial Consortium - made &#8203;&#8203;up of Dassault Aviation, Snecma (Safra Group) and Thales, MBDA and their subcontractors are able to offer a Swiss industrial and scientific cooperation for the benefit of all its cantons. This has affected the entire range of suppliers ie: the military with the Rafale, but also the civilian sector, which includes programs for Falcon business jets, the engine type CFM56 civil and avionics for aircraft and helicopters. Some elements of the Rafale are already produced in Switzerland (glass cockpit, fuel tank and more recently additional elements of the Thales radar RBE2).
> 
> The offer provides for the outsourcing of many structural components, final assembly and maintenance in Switzerland for the entire program Rafale as well as research and development. The manufacture of armaments (missiles MICA) is also proposed and the development of helmet-mounted sight GERFAUT, systems are also affected as the system of self-protection spectrum and the second generation OSF.
> 
> According to Dassault, the Rafale is the plane that is best for our country, because as close collaboration with both military and industry are encouraged. Also, be aware that the latest version (F3 +) tested in Switzerland responded to 95% in the specifications and offers the following possibilities:
> 
> ability to flight mode "Supercruise."
> Short take-off.
> Range and capacity for extended flight long surveillance missions.
> Rapidly implemented in particular by soldiers of the militia.
> Ease of integration of the works already constructed.
> 
> Multisensor system proposed:
> 
> The proposed version of the Rafale in our country is the latest available is the standard 04T with the wiring for the METEOR missile, the Damocles pod XF and the new architecture IDM. The unit will have:
> 
> Radar Thales AESA RBE-2AA.
> Autopotection SPECTRA system.
> On OSF (Front Sector optics) next generation.
> In connection 16 (Link16) next generation (MIDS).
> Data fusion system NCW (Net Centric Warfare).


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## SpArK

*France warns of end of Rafale fighter jet production *




PARIS: France warned on Wednesday that defence giant Dassault would halt production of its Rafale multirole fighter jet if it remains unable to sell any abroad.


"If Dassault doesn't sell any Rafales abroad, the production line... will be stopped" once France has received the 180 aircraft it has ordered, Defence Minister Gerard Longuet told a small group of journalists including AFP.


France considers the twin-motor delta-wing Rafale a state-of-the-art warplane but has struggled to find any foreign buyers to support the project that has so far cost over 40 billion euros (53 billion dollars).


Longuet said maintenance arrangements would continue for all completed aircraft and that French Rafale orders alone would keep the production line going until 2018 "at least".


Then "it will be over for the manufacturer, not for the user," he said of the plane that has been deployed in NATO operations in Afghanistan and Libya 


It is mainly built by Dasault, electronics company Thales and motor manufacturer Snecma, part of the Safran group, but a total of over 1,500 French companies are involved in the programme.


Longuet insisted that the Rafale remained in competition with European manufacturer EADS' Eurofighter Typhoon for a large Indian contract and that "we are in tough negotiations with the United Arab Emirates".


However, the UAE, which was said to be in final talks with France to buy 60 Rafales, said last month that the French offer was unworkable and uncompetitive.


A US cable leaked by Wikileaks in 2010 quoted King Hamad of Bahrain as mocking the Rafale as "yesterday's technology".


Switzerland in November became the latest country to choose another fighter over the Rafale, opting for the Swedish-made Saab Gripen to replace its ageing fleet.


The Rafale and Typhoon are in the final stage of a massive duel to meet India's 126-unit medium multi-role combat aircraft requirement. Final bids were opened earlier last month, with a decision possible within weeks.


Asked why Dassault was having trouble selling the plane abroad, Longuet said the multirole jet was "more expensive than American planes which are produced in much greater numbers."


"While we order 200 Rafales for a 10-15 year programme, the Americans make 3,000 aircraft," he said.


"However, for top level missions of high military value, the Rafale is undeniably well-positioned."


Development of the Rafale began in the 1980s, with a first prototype built in 1991. The first plane for delivery to the French military rolled off the production line in 1998. 


- AFP/de


France warns of end of Rafale fighter jet production - Channel NewsAsia

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## Thundersword

^^^^It's Rafale that is most likely to win the MMRCA (and that's being pessimistic)....... so this means we can get an awesome deal outta dassault if Rafale wins  and no offence to Bahrain ppl here but I think the King should go back to riding camels!!! Rafale and yesterdays tech .... good PJ... 
Go rafale!!!  (PDF should make a cheerleader emoticon  )


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## angeldemon_007

^^^
Well don't expect much because most likely both french and other Europeans both are gonna bribe and when the people at decision-making chairs get their pockets filled the deals are closed, nobody there has a concern for national security...


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## jha

SpArK said:


> *France warns of end of Rafale fighter jet production *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [/url]



Wow..One of the best news of the month...


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## angeldemon_007

^^^
UAE is gonna purchase on the two jets (EF or Rafale). If they don't select any of these, if they go for US jet, then both of them face the same fate, the only thing protecting them will be MMRCA....


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## Abingdonboy

angeldemon_007 said:


> ^^^
> Well don't expect much because most likely both french and other Europeans both are gonna bribe and when the people at decision-making chairs get their pockets filled the deals are closed, nobody there has a concern for national security...



I wouldn't be so pessimistic, this deal has so far been conducted with utter professionalism (no small feat given the sheer size of the project) and has been praised for its efficeny and competency (no doubt because most of the initial work/reports/evaluations were done by defence personnel). Strict new anti-graft laws and intense global scrutiny will make sure all those involved tow the proper line.


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## the rafter

This may be jealousy or may be plain bitching since Russia is out of the MMRCA. But if prices balloon to double than expected then India might be forced to cancel it?


> India May Cancel Fighter Competition | AVIATION WEEK
> 
> Victor Komardin, the deputy director of Russia&#8217;s arms export agency Rosoboronexport, contends that the two short-listed candidates for India&#8217;s Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) competition have effectively ruled themselves out by putting too high a price on their fighters.
> 
> India&#8217;s politicians told the local press earlier this year that the MMRCA contract was a $10 billion deal, but reports from India in recent weeks say the manufacturers of the two finalist aircraft, the Eurofighter Typhoon and Dassault Rafale, are each asking for around $20 billion to fulfill the 126-aircraft order, Komardin says.
> 
> &#8220;Against the backdrop of the [financial] crisis [sweeping the world], it is hard to see how any government would allow such a waste of money, particularly when there are social problems&#8221; to deal with, Komardin says. &#8220;And there is no imminent threat to India&#8217;s [sovereignty]. My prediction is that this tender will be canceled.&#8221; Komardin spoke to Aviation Week on the sidelines of the LIMA Airshow in Langkawi, Malaysia.
> 
> India and Russia are close partners on defense. Rosoboronexport&#8217;s MiG-35 was on the long list for India&#8217;s MMRCA competition. Komardin says the MiG-35 was withdrawn from the competition before the short list was decided. If India issues a new tender, it creates an opportunity for Russia and the U.S. to rejoin the competition


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## sancho

angeldemon_007 said:


> ^^^
> UAE is gonna purchase on the two jets (EF or Rafale). If they don't select any of these, if they go for US jet, then both of them face the same fate, the only thing protecting them will be MMRCA....



Don't think so, they either will buy Rafale or no new fighter at all, because they are more than happy with their Mirage fighters and they still hae no real competition where the EF or any other fighter participates.



the rafter said:


> This may be jealousy or may be plain bitching since Russia is out of the MMRCA. But if prices balloon to double than expected then India might be forced to cancel it?


Not neccesarily, because the $10 billion price limit was always speculated by the media (some said $12 billions), not to forget that the new MMRCA is aimed on higher benefits for Indian industry with the high ammount of offsets, so the more we pay, the more we also get in return for our own industry. Also, the simple fact that the 2 most expensive fighters was shortlisted and not a single of the cheap fighters, says that MoD/GoI knows exactly about how much they want to pay. If there would be a problem with the costs of Rafale and EF, they could have shortlisted the F18SH as a cheaper and more proven alternative too, but it wasn't because low unit cost is not important in this competition.


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## sancho

> *Raptor snapshots by the Rafale*
> 
> At LIMA 2011 air show in Malaysia, Dassault released a set of imagery from an apparent engagement between the Rafale and the Lockheed Martin F-22. One of the images have been released before, and it came from the sort-of-friendly fighter jet show-down in November 2009 at Al Dhafra AB, United Arab Emirates.
> 
> The imagery was released as part of a plug for the Rafale's infrared search and track sensor, called the Thales front sector optronics system.
> 
> These are desperate times for Dassault's fighter programme. The manufacturing house that produced the Mirage and Rafale fighter series has lost a series of competitions, including most recently in Switzerland. Defense Minister Gerard Longuet warned yesterday that the Rafale line will be closed in the absence of export orders. That may seem like merely stating the obvious, but the timing of Longuet's statement makes it a warning. *India is rumoured to be set to announce tomorrow the outcome of the competition for the medium multi-rote combat aircraft (MMRCA)*, with only the Rafale and the Eurofighter Typhoon still in the running.



PICTURE: Raptor snapshots by the Rafale - The DEW Line


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## Abingdonboy

^^^ well this is news. What rumours? Last I heard it was " middle of December".


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## sancho

jha said:


> Wow..One of the best news of the month...



Read between the lines my friend!  France (in this case the government) shoots against it's own manufacturer, do you really think they do it without any reasons?
Keep in mind the reports from Dubai air show, that the UAE officials are disappointed by Dassault, but highly praised the involvement of the French government in their deal. The French government is just putting pressure on Dassault, while they keep commit themselfs on Rafale on the other side:



> *Rafale production, secured beyond 2020 at least*
> 
> ...Edit december 8 :
> To clarify Gerard Longuet statement, the Ministry of Defense has issued an official note stating :
> "*If Dassault does not export the Rafale, The production for the French army will not end before 2030*. The deliveries will spread long after 2020. In the meantime, the aircraft will get upgrades between 2020 and 2030"



Rafale News: Rafale production, secured beyond 2020 at least


----------



## the rafter

sancho said:


> Don't think so, they either will buy Rafale or no new fighter at all, because they are more than happy with their Mirage fighters and they still hae no real competition where the EF or any other fighter participates.
> 
> 
> Not neccesarily, because the $10 billion price limit was always speculated by the media (some said $12 billions), not to forget that the new MMRCA is aimed on higher benefits for Indian industry with the high ammount of offsets, so the more we pay, the more we also get in return for our own industry. Also, the simple fact that the 2 most expensive fighters was shortlisted and not a single of the cheap fighters, says that MoD/GoI knows exactly about how much they want to pay. If there would be a problem with the costs of Rafale and EF, they could have shortlisted the F18SH as a cheaper and more proven alternative too, but it wasn't because low unit cost is not important in this competition.


 
Even though you may be right in your interpretation, eventually it will be GoI and the finance dept. that has to approve the deal (price of this deal). Deviously, it may be possible that the Airforce/MoD intentionally short-listed two expensive jets knowing they would be rejected at later stages on the basis of price 
Therefore, scrapping the old tender and making way for a new modified tender (read: 5th gen. fighter jet).


----------



## sancho

the rafter said:


> Even though you may be right in your interpretation, eventually it will be GoI and the finance dept. that has to approve the deal (price of this deal). Deviously, it may be possible that the Airforce/MoD intentionally short-listed two expensive jets knowing they would be rejected at later stages on the basis of price
> Therefore, scrapping the old tender and making way for a new modified tender (read: 5th gen. fighter jet).



My friend, MoD which is part of the GoI shortlisted Rafale and EF, not IAF! IAF only made the technical evaluations and transfered the results to MoD, they then analysed them combined with other requirements and get to a decision, for which even IAF eagerly was waiting. Since april/may IAF is basically out of the game and has to wait what the government will decide at the end and we saw the same procedure in the Swiss, where the government at the end decided completelly against the decision of the air force and their evaluations.
Btw, scrapping the tender for 5th gen fighters makes no sense, because we already will get one, maybe even two and IAF wanted the fast and cost-effective solution (Mirage 2000-5) in the past, while GoI/MoD choosed to get into the more costly competiton. So that reason is more than doubtful!


----------



## angeldemon_007

> Don't think so, they either will buy Rafale or no new fighter at all, because they are more than happy with their Mirage fighters and they still hae no real competition where the EF or any other fighter participates.


Well IAF is also happy with Mirage but that doesnot mean India or UAE will pay whatever French ask them to pay. The french offer to both India and UAE are way too expensive as compared to the aircraft's worth and this is the reason why Rafale is losing everywhere. EF Consortium have bend alot for MMRCA while French are not ready to bend and this may cost them at both places. In both places French will have to make their offer alot sweeter to beat EF.


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## sancho

angeldemon_007 said:


> Well IAF is also happy with Mirage but that doesnot mean India or UAE will pay whatever French ask them to pay. The french offer to both India and UAE are way too expensive as compared to the aircraft's worth and this is the reason why Rafale is losing everywhere. EF Consortium have bend alot for MMRCA while French are not ready to bend and this may cost them at both places. In both places French will have to make their offer alot sweeter to beat EF.



But IAF Mirage are 25 years old, most of UAE Mirages are brand new and the most capable of this fighter type. IAF has to replace fighters with MMRCA, UAE has not, that's why they want France to buy the Mirage fighters back or find a buyer for them, so there is a huge difference in both deals.
Also, the EF consortium has no other option to bend that much, because they are way more desperate than the French! Nobody wants their fighter when they have a chance to really compare it with other fighters, because its costlier than the Rafale (even for India!) and way less capable. Brazil rejected it directly, Singapor, S. Korea the Dutch and the Swiss rated it way behind Rafale and now that we know for sure that not even the partner countries will continue to buy it, there is even less hope for it's future potential (production secured till 2017 now, because of slowed production rate).
India is the best/only chance for the EF partners and the consortium have and that's why they are ready to get rid of their fighters even with a loss, so it's not surprising that they bent as much as they can, but that doesn't automatically mean that they are better then what the French offers, because they still offer the cheaper and more capable fighter and we still don't have any real clue what they offered to India on the industrial side. In no other competition the French were so quiet about the industrial part, while we got a lot of infos about that from their PR in Brazil or Swiss.

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## tony singh

EF was rated by the Saudis more than the Rafale and now Malaysia is even having a good look at the bird. Rafale's problem is the engines which have less thrust and also it is not as stealthy compared to the EF. My choice would be to scrap the tender and cancel orders for the rest of the Sukhoi 30MKI and go for the Sukhoi 35E.


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## Black Widow

tony singh said:


> EF was rated by the Saudis more than the Rafale and now Malaysia is even having a good look at the bird. Rafale's problem is the engines which have less thrust and also it is not as stealthy compared to the EF. My choice would be to scrap the tender and cancel orders for the rest of the Sukhoi 30MKI and go for the Sukhoi 35E.




Why don't you keep your suggestion with yourself???? If India cancel this order then what will replace MiG27/Jaguar and M2000H???? Only a fool in world will replace ground attack MRCA with Air-Superiority MRCA....


Try to understand the Structure of airforces in world. They need 
A) Weight wise 
1. Light Fighters :MiG21,LCA
2. Medium weight fighters :MiG29,MiG23/27, Jaguar,M2000H,(Harrier and MiG29K if navy counted in)
3. Heavy weight Fighters. :Su30MKI

B) Role wise 
1. Point defense fighter :MiG21,LCA
2. Area defense fighter :MiG29,Su30MKI
3. Air superiority fighter. : Su30MKI (not all can be used for this role, coz its most expensive), MiG29
4. Multirole fighter with good Air superiority : Su30MKI (EFT if taken, Later PAK-FA will join)
5. Multirole fighter with good ground attack capability : M2000H (Later MMRCA will join , if Rafael)
6. Dedicated Ground attack fighter : Jaguar, MiG27 (It will totally replace by MRCAs, later there wont be any fighter for this role)
7. CAS (Close Air support fighter) : MiG21, LCA, Su30MKI, MMRCA winner

*Hope you will not give any lame suggestion in Sticky thread... You are welcome for any further query... *

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## dearone4u_22

We could ask USA for few B-2 Bomber along with growlers ...try karne mein kya jata hai

For B-2
Total procurement costs averaged $929 million per aircraft, which includes spare parts, equipment, retrofitting, and software support

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## Black Widow

dearone4u_22 said:


> We could ask USA for few B-2 Bomber along with growlers ...try karne mein kya jata hai
> 
> For B-2
> Total procurement costs averaged $929 million per aircraft, which includes spare parts, equipment, retrofitting, and software support




Let me tell you one story:

Two friends were walking thru a jungle. Suddenly they saw a lion. one of them started tieing his shoelace so that he can run. his friend told him that he can not outrun Lion. He replied "Who the hell want to outrun lion? I want to outrun you..."

Moral of the story: Do we really need B2 to outrun our friend?

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## ptltejas

The New Pod From SAAB Group of Gripen News

Saab Group has launched a new countermeasures self protection pod, BOH, which can be incorporated into any fixed wing aircraft for defeating all modern infra-red-guided threats.

The modular multiconfigurable BOH employs Saab's BOL countermeasures dispenser system (CMDS) and compact integrated defensive aids suite (CIDAS) into the shape of a missile.

The BOH pod features a missile approach warning system (MAW), pyrotechnical dispenser, controller and electromechanical dispenser modules.

The BOL CMDS enables countermeasure dispensing characterisation with its long duration pre-emptive dispensing capability, while Saab's BOP dispenser is designed to provide forward firing flare capability to the BOH.

CIDAS is the small and light weight electronic warfare (EW) system variant featuring electro-optical sensors and a smaller controller, to provide self-defence in diverse and dense threat scenarios.

The BOL and CIDAS capabilities are incorporated in the form of a missile using AIM-9 Sidewinder and AIM-120 AMRAAM interfaces and are supported by the missile approach warning and laser sensors mounted in the front end for automatic trigger dispensing action.

The interfaces allow the BOH installation in place of a missile on a mission-to-mission basis to assist the operator in selecting missiles or additional EW equipment for carrying in the BOH form-factor.

The BOH integration with MIL-STD-1553 or RS-485 data links allows the adaptation to other displays and control means while the wireless technology implementation makes integration much simpler.

Saab's business area Electronic Defence Systems product manager Christer Zatterqvist said that simple integration allows rotation of a limited number of BOH between the aircraft or its types.

The prototype of BOH will be displayed at the Langkawi International Maritime and Aerospace Exhibition (LIMA) 2011in Malaysia.

Image caption: BOL advanced counter measure dispenser enables countermeasure dispensing characterisation with its long duration pre-emptive dispensing capability.







Saab launches new countermeasures self protection pod - Airforce Technology

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## SpArK

ptltejas said:


> The New Pod From SAAB Group of Gripen News
> 
> Saab Group has launched a new countermeasures self protection pod, BOH, which can be incorporated into any fixed wing aircraft for defeating all modern infra-red-guided threats.
> 
> The modular multiconfigurable BOH employs Saab's BOL countermeasures dispenser system (CMDS) and compact integrated defensive aids suite (CIDAS) into the shape of a missile.
> 
> The BOH pod features a missile approach warning system (MAW), pyrotechnical dispenser, controller and electromechanical dispenser modules.
> 
> The BOL CMDS enables countermeasure dispensing characterisation with its long duration pre-emptive dispensing capability, while Saab's BOP dispenser is designed to provide forward firing flare capability to the BOH.
> 
> CIDAS is the small and light weight electronic warfare (EW) system variant featuring electro-optical sensors and a smaller controller, to provide self-defence in diverse and dense threat scenarios.
> 
> The BOL and CIDAS capabilities are incorporated in the form of a missile using AIM-9 Sidewinder and AIM-120 AMRAAM interfaces and are supported by the missile approach warning and laser sensors mounted in the front end for automatic trigger dispensing action.
> 
> The interfaces allow the BOH installation in place of a missile on a mission-to-mission basis to assist the operator in selecting missiles or additional EW equipment for carrying in the BOH form-factor.
> 
> The BOH integration with MIL-STD-1553 or RS-485 data links allows the adaptation to other displays and control means while the wireless technology implementation makes integration much simpler.
> 
> Saab's business area Electronic Defence Systems product manager Christer Zatterqvist said that simple integration allows rotation of a limited number of BOH between the aircraft or its types.
> 
> The prototype of BOH will be displayed at the Langkawi International Maritime and Aerospace Exhibition (LIMA) 2011in Malaysia.
> 
> Image caption: BOL advanced counter measure dispenser enables countermeasure dispensing characterisation with its long duration pre-emptive dispensing capability.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Saab launches new countermeasures self protection pod - Airforce Technology





It can be used in EF.

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## tony singh

Black Widow said:


> Why don't you keep your suggestion with yourself???? If India cancel this order then what will replace MiG27/Jaguar and M2000H???? Only a fool in world will replace ground attack MRCA with Air-Superiority MRCA....
> 
> 
> Try to understand the Structure of airforces in world. They need
> A) Weight wise
> 1. Light Fighters :MiG21,LCA
> 2. Medium weight fighters :MiG29,MiG23/27, Jaguar,M2000H,(Harrier and MiG29K if navy counted in)
> 3. Heavy weight Fighters. :Su30MKI
> 
> B) Role wise
> 1. Point defense fighter :MiG21,LCA
> 2. Area defense fighter :MiG29,Su30MKI
> 3. Air superiority fighter. : Su30MKI (not all can be used for this role, coz its most expensive), MiG29
> 4. Multirole fighter with good Air superiority : Su30MKI (EFT if taken, Later PAK-FA will join)
> 5. Multirole fighter with good ground attack capability : M2000H (Later MMRCA will join , if Rafael)
> 6. Dedicated Ground attack fighter : Jaguar, MiG27 (It will totally replace by MRCAs, later there wont be any fighter for this role)
> 7. CAS (Close Air support fighter) : MiG21, LCA, Su30MKI, MMRCA winner
> 
> *Hope you will not give any lame suggestion in Sticky thread... You are welcome for any further query... *


 





I have a right to express my opinion if u dont like it go do one

---------- Post added at 07:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:22 PM ----------

The SU35BM has a reduced RCS and is multi role it can do the A2A and the ground operations.

---------- Post added at 07:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:24 PM ----------

If this MRCA tender is going up by cost to $20bn in my view it's not worth it. Rafale is a waste of money nobody wants this fighter and the EF is too expensive so why not order the SU35 and MKI it?

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## deepakclaw

SU 30MKI is not an air superiority fighter alone. It is an true multirole paltform ,it exels in different missions including A2A & A2G. ............in IAF it is positioned as airsuperiority fighter thats all. 


Black Widow said:


> Why don't you keep your suggestion with yourself???? If India cancel this order then what will replace MiG27/Jaguar and M2000H???? Only a fool in world will replace ground attack MRCA with Air-Superiority MRCA....
> 
> 
> Try to understand the Structure of airforces in world. They need
> A) Weight wise
> 1. Light Fighters :MiG21,LCA
> 2. Medium weight fighters :MiG29,MiG23/27, Jaguar,M2000H,(Harrier and MiG29K if navy counted in)
> 3. Heavy weight Fighters. :Su30MKI
> 
> B) Role wise
> 1. Point defense fighter :MiG21,LCA
> 2. Area defense fighter :MiG29,Su30MKI
> 3. Air superiority fighter. : Su30MKI (not all can be used for this role, coz its most expensive), MiG29
> 4. Multirole fighter with good Air superiority : Su30MKI (EFT if taken, Later PAK-FA will join)
> 5. Multirole fighter with good ground attack capability : M2000H (Later MMRCA will join , if Rafael)
> 6. Dedicated Ground attack fighter : Jaguar, MiG27 (It will totally replace by MRCAs, later there wont be any fighter for this role)
> 7. CAS (Close Air support fighter) : MiG21, LCA, Su30MKI, MMRCA winner
> 
> *Hope you will not give any lame suggestion in Sticky thread... You are welcome for any further query... *

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## Lord Of Gondor

tony singh said:


> If this MRCA tender is going up by cost to $20bn in my view it's not worth it. Rafale is a waste of money nobody wants this fighter and the EF is too expensive so why not order the SU35 and MKI it?


Remember that IAF did not want all it's eggs in one basket!
Add to that,the GoI wanted to get as much political mileage as possible!

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## ptltejas

SpArK said:


> It can be used in EF.



Not a Griphen lover or hate it...


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## sancho

tony singh said:


> EF was rated by the Saudis more than the Rafale and now Malaysia is even having a good look at the bird. Rafale's problem is the engines which have less thrust and also it is not as stealthy compared to the EF. My choice would be to scrap the tender and cancel orders for the rest of the Sukhoi 30MKI and go for the Sukhoi 35E.



1) The Saudi deal was no real competition like MMRCA or the once I mentioned
2) A bribery case was charged against BAE regarding this deal, just like in Austria and the EF selection there
3) Su35 / MKI / Pak FA / FGFA = Heavy class fighters, but the competition is for MEDIUM class MRCA
4) Former IAF Chief Naik said, that putting all eggs in one basket is not a good idea and that it's not the unit cost that is important, but the lifecycle costs
5) IAF learned from Kargil war how important it is to have fighters with alternative capabilities and weapons

It should be clear now why no Russian fighter was chosen and why more heavy class fighters are out of question. Besides that, MMRCA has the aim to get big industrial advantages too and for this requirement, the Rafale/EF are the best options.


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## tony singh

sancho said:


> 1) The Saudi deal was no real competition like MMRCA or the once I mentioned
> 2) A bribery case was charged against BAE regarding this deal, just like in Austria and the EF selection there
> 3) Su35 / MKI / Pak FA / FGFA = Heavy class fighters, but the competition is for MEDIUM class MRCA
> 4) Former IAF Chief Naik said, that putting all eggs in one basket is not a good idea and that it's not the unit cost that is important, but the lifecycle costs
> 5) IAF learned from Kargil war how important it is to have fighters with alternative capabilities and weapons
> 
> It should be clear now why no Russian fighter was chosen and why more heavy class fighters are out of question. Besides that, MMRCA has the aim to get big industrial advantages too and for this requirement, the Rafale/EF are the best options.




I understand the need to get new weapons and technology from western sources, but i still can't get my head around $20bn in the cost.


When it comes to lifecycle cost gripen is alot cheaper in that regard. Rafale is good because it's lighter but pity nobody seems to want it ill be intrested to see if it wins the 1st order in India.

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## Black Widow

deepakclaw said:


> SU 30MKI is not an air superiority fighter alone. It is an true multirole paltform ,it exels in different missions including A2A & A2G. ............in IAF it is positioned as airsuperiority fighter thats all.




With All due respect I am saying the same thing. Looks like you were in hurry to reply so you didn't read my post. if you see my post you can see I have kept Su30MKI in 3 category (Based on How India is using it)
a) Area defense
b) Air Superiority
c) Multi role with good Air superiority.

India can not use all MKI into Airsuperiority role. Our wallet not permits, Infact no country can do so(unless they are crazy). Coming to your second point "Su30MKI is true Multirole platform". I agree with you and I have written the same in my post. Su27 series is a Multirole fighter with better Air superiority. 

While Rafael is also Multirole but better ground attack capability. The Invention of Look down radar bring up the concept of Multirole. 




tony singh said:


> I have a right to express my opinion if u dont like it go do one
> 
> Yes You do have, Sorry if I hurt you
> 
> The SU35BM has a reduced RCS and is multi role it can do the A2A and the ground operations.
> 
> But again Su35 BM is not Medium weight AC. We need medium weight fighter. and Su30MKI up gradation program will bring it to Su35BM standard.
> 
> If this MRCA tender is going up by cost to $20bn in my view it's not worth it. Rafale is a waste of money nobody wants this fighter and the EF is too expensive so why not order the SU35 and MKI it?



I don't see any other country providing any cheaper solution. Remember 10 or 20 Bill USD includes Infrastructure, Training and ToT. (May be weapon system as well-Sanco can tell it better)

Su35 is estimated 65 Mill USD a piece (may be without infrastructure and Tot) MiG35 cost around 50 Mill USD (May be without ToT and Infrastructure.)


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## sancho

tony singh said:


> When it comes to lifecycle cost gripen is alot cheaper in that regard. Rafale is good because it's lighter but pity nobody seems to want it ill be intrested to see if it wins the 1st order in India.



True, the Gripen was cheaper, but way less capable and more risky, but the point was that IAF prefered lower lifecylce costs compared to their heavy class fighters and even the Mig 35 was worse in this field compared to Rafale and EF.
Rafale is the best medium class fighter available today, but that doesn't mean any potential customer has to buy it. These kind of deals have more than technical requirements, costs is an issue where it falls back of course, when US fighters are involved it also lacks behind at political advantages and even compared to the EF consortium. So there are more reasons behind it why it wasn't sold yet.
For India that doesn't mean much anyway, because once we see that Rafale is one of the few 4th gen fighters that constantly got upgraded and improved to a very good level (contrary to the EF), that it will be in production beyond 2020 and that France will focus on it as a single type fighter for their air force and navy, which again secures upgrades for the future. Not to mention that for us, the licence production is more important, because the more we can build in India and the more we might be able to customise (similar to MKI), the less dependable are we for French upgrades too. I would love to see an Indian Rafale with Shudharshan LGB, HELINA missile and maybe Israeli SPICE Stand off weapons, not to forget that Israeli avionics could be on the list as well.

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## jha

Should we explore the possibility of us getting AIM-120D for MRCA and LCA along with METEOR..
The projected number of Meteor to be procured by Euro nations seems to be reducing..Chances are that it will become a tad too pricey.. 
USA seems to be excited about the latest variant of AMRAAM. If this is as capable and can be integrated easily to EF/Rafale , then imo we should go for it..We might get to produce it here... 

Comments awaited....


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## rockstarIN

jha said:


> Should we explore the possibility of us getting AIM-120D for MRCA and LCA along with METEOR..
> The projected number of Meteor to be procured by Euro nations seems to be reducing..Chances are that it will become a tad too pricey..
> USA seems to be excited about the latest variant of AMRAAM. If this is as capable and can be integrated easily to EF/Rafale , then imo we should go for it..We might get to produce it here...
> 
> Comments awaited....


 
AIM-120D for LCA is fine, provided ELTA/2032 will support it for sure. MICAs & Meteor is fine for MRCA as US itself like to integrate Meteor for their fighters.


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## angeldemon_007




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## Skull and Bones

angeldemon_007 said:


>



You ok mate?


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## angeldemon_007

*Sorry posted in the wrong thread....But still since u asked according to some reports this is Force Motors Trishul lsv and it is selected by IA instead of AXE and Tata's LSV....*

Sorry again friends....for more information look under Indian Amry thread....webmaster can u delete my previous post ??


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## Skull and Bones

angeldemon_007 said:


> *Sorry posted in the wrong thread....But still since u asked according to some reports this is Force Motors Trishul lsv and it is selected by IA instead of AXE and Tata's LSV....*



Are they mad? 

Mahindra Axe is far better than this.

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## angeldemon_007

^^^
Well first we should shift this discussion to IA's thread and secondly mate Force Motor is known for making quality vehicles and if you ask me AXE wasn't a strong vehicle, i am talking about its body not engine. Also if IA went out of its way to select Force MOtor then i think the product must be good.


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## sancho

jha said:


> Should we explore the possibility of us getting AIM-120D for MRCA and LCA along with METEOR..
> *The projected number of Meteor to be procured by Euro nations seems to be reducing*..Chances are that it will become a tad too pricey..
> USA seems to be excited about the latest variant of AMRAAM. If this is as capable and can be integrated easily to EF/Rafale , then imo we should go for it..We might get to produce it here...
> 
> Comments awaited....



Because? So far all EF partner countries (UK and ITA also for their F35s), French forces, Swedens air force, the Saudis for their EFs and most likely Switzerland for their Gripens wants METEOR. India, Brazil and most of all the UAE are highly interested as well and since all 3 Eurocanards will be offered with this missile now in any competition, the customer base will only increase.

The biggest advantage of METEOR is not range like many people think, but speed and that's where it will remain to be superior to the AIM 120D, although the range might be comparable. The speed advantage of the Ramjet propulsion reduces the no escape zone by far, because the missile will maintain the full speed from launch till impact, while normal missiles will have full speed only at launch. That means the higher the distance to the target, the higher the chances that it will be missed with the AIM 120 and that's why even current AIM 120s will be launched at way less distance, than it has on paper.

(skip to 2:06)
Missile MBDA Meteor - YouTube

For India only MMRCAs will be useful for this missile, because it will be too costly (especially at the begining), not to forget that we have our own developments in the BVR missile and Ramjet propulsion areas. Later ASTRA versions are expected with such an propulsion too.


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## Capt.Popeye

angeldemon_007 said:


> ^^^
> Well first we should shift this discussion to IA's thread and secondly mate Force Motor is known for making quality vehicles and if you ask me AXE wasn't a strong vehicle, i am talking about its body not engine. Also if IA went out of its way to select Force MOtor then i think the product must be good.



Sorry to disagree with you re: Force Motors. At first glance, it seems to be another souped up Tempo Trax. In its time (like about a hundred years ago!) the Trax was considered to be good because of its drive-train and mechanicals. That was simply because Kinetic (the parent company of Force) had bought the entire Mercedes OM-616 engine and gear-box manufacture line and set it up in their Chinchwad plant. And at that time, it was outstanding. Now time has moved on, but have Force improved/upgraded the engine? Not sure about that, though they had got AVL from Austria to work on the engine and tweak it when the competition hotted up. I'll say this though; Kinetic was much inspired by the Mercedes G-Wagen in its design of the Trax (even in the looks department). But sadly, none of that was ever materially visible in the Trax. So it remained a rural "people-wagen" till even that role was taken over by Mahindra Commanders and Tata Sumos.

Being very familiar with the Kinetic/Force Motors both the organisation and design elements, I'm very sceptical that this Trishul (or whatever its called) is worth writing home (or anywhere else) about.


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## Lord Of Gondor

^^^Force motors' copy of a chinese SUV launched here recently as the Force One uses a merc engine and TBHP mods said that the engine is the best feature of this crappy vehicle!
So,the "Trishul" must also have merc engines


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## kaykay

guys it's almost mid of december and still no clue about mmrca......any one?


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## Black Widow

kaykay said:


> guys it's almost mid of december and still no clue about mmrca......any one?



may be this one






or this one 







Ok Kidding...
Wait for some more time, I think it will be EFT or Rafael..


----------



## Jason bourne

Black Widow said:


> may be this one
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> or this one
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ok Kidding...
> Wait for some more time, I think it will be EFT or Rafael..




yo first pics looks awsome better then f-16s  cool


----------



## ramu

*MMRCA procurement at contract negotiations stage: Antony*

New Delhi, Dec 12 (PTI) The final cost of procurement of 126 Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (M-MRCA) for the Indian Air Force would be known after completion of negotiations and finalisation of the contract, the government told the Lok Sabha today.

In written reply to a question in the lower house, Defence Minister A K Antony said, "The proposal is now at the contract negotiations stage, and the final cost of procurement would be known only after completion of negotiations and finalisation of the contract." 
He said the Defence Acquisitions Council had accorded Acceptance of Necessity for procurement of 126 M-MRCA at an estimated cost of Rs 42,000 crore in June 2007.

Replying to a query related to offset proposal of the contract, he said, "As per Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP) 2006 these (offset) relate to direct purchase of defence products or services or direct investments with Indian offset partners as per the stipulated guidelines." 
On modernisation of IAF''s transport and helicopter fleet, he said, "This includes induction of C-130J Transport Aircraft, C-17 Heavy Transport Aircraft, Medium Transport Aircraft as well as helicopters for various transport, recce and surveillance and operational tasks." 
Antony informed the House that the operational capabilities of the IAF are reviewed periodically to ensure these are adequate to meet the security challenges.

On delivery of C-17 transport aircraft, he said, "All ten C-17 aircraft and their associated equipment are expected to be delivered to the IAF between June 2013 and June 2015." 
Letters of Offer and Acceptance (LOA) have been signed with United States for procurement of ten C-17 Globemaster aircraft as well as six C-130J aircraft, Antony said. 

MMRCA procurement at contract negotiations stage: Antony -

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## rockstarIN

> "The proposal is now at the contract negotiations stage, and the final cost of procurement would be known only after completion of negotiations and finalisation of the contract."
> He said the Defence Acquisitions Council had accorded Acceptance of Necessity for procurement of 126 M-MRCA at an estimated cost of Rs 42,000 crore in June 2007.



With whom are we negotiating? or talking to both parties or the lowest bidder?


----------



## sancho

Seems like the EF lost another competition this month:



> *Japan chooses F-35 as mainstay fighter jet: reports*
> 
> TOKYO  Japan has chosen the US-made F-35 stealth jet as its next-generation mainstay fighter in a multi-billion dollar deal, reports said Tuesday.
> 
> The defence ministry picked the jet made by Lockheed Martin to replace its ageing fleet of F-4 jets over two rivals, the Boeing-made F/A-18 Super Hornet and the Eurofighter Typhoon, the Yomiuri Shimbun said.
> 
> Japan's biggest daily said the defence ministry had "agreed in principle" to select the F-35, with a formal announcement expected Friday at the Security Council of Japan, chaired by Prime Minister Yoshihiko Noda.
> 
> Kyodo News cited unnamed government sources as saying the ministry had decided to buy 40 F-35 fighters, while the Nikkei business daily said only that the jet remained a "prime candidate"...



AFP: Japan chooses F-35 as mainstay fighter jet: reports



> *Japan to pick Lockheeds F-35 as new stealth fighter*
> 
> SEOUL  Japan is set to select the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II JSF as its new stealth fighter, Japanese media reported Tuesday, upgrading its air defense at a time when China and Russia pose growing threats to its territory...
> 
> ...Japan will purchase roughly 40 fighter jets, the Yomiuri newspaper said, and as part of the deal, it will receive classified information about the F-35s construction, allowing some of the fighters components to be manufactured in Japan.
> 
> The Japanese government will make a formal announcement about the decision on Friday, both the Yomiuri and the Kyodo news agency said. Japanese government officials often provide off-the-record briefings to the domestic media in advance of major decisions...



Japan to pick Lockheed&rsquo;s F-35 as new stealth fighter - The Washington Post

If true, it leaves the EF consortium with India and Malaysia as only chances to get another export deal.


----------



## sancho

Dassault Aviation CEO comments on recent issues:



> *Rafale: "No gift by the State to Dassault Aviation"*
> 
> INTERVIEW - Charles Edelstenne, CEO of Dassault Aviation, says the French fighter meets a need expressed by the staffs of the army and the cost of the program was under control...
> 
> ...*Specifically, what is your export market and how to explain
> these failures?*
> 
> The traditional market of French combat aircraft consists of countries that do not want to buy American aircraft or countries who want a double source. Competitions were held in South Korea, Singapore and the Netherlands. In these countries, the air forces were now only equipped with American planes. These countries have always had very close ties with the United States, for geostrategic reasons with respect to Korea or Singapore. For reasons of comfort in the Netherlands, a founding member of the European Union, but fierce supporter of the American preference for what is their combat aviation, remember the market of the century! We may have erred in taking part in these early competitions, where our chances were, from the start, rather limited. But if we did not, nobody would have understood. *Each time, we removed the EF2000 and we ended up in the final against American planes*...
> 
> ...*Specifically, where did you export your prospects?*
> 
> The three files are the most advanced Arab Emirates, India and Brazil. Let's start with the UAE. Since 2008 we are in negotiations with that country. The UAE is a client partner who has always called upon to do better. Negotiations are continuing and the company is working to develop local partnerships, if the case ended Rafale, should strengthen the strategic relationship between our two countries on the basis of an industrial and technological cooperation extended around the Rafale.
> 
> *In India, we are in the final stages against the EF2000 EADS. I will not comment on those negotiations, but I want to emphasize the interest that Dassault Aviation is in the client history of French aviation combat. We are committed to addressing the concerns of independence and sovereignty of the Indians, who want to build an industrial base already very efficient.*
> 
> Finally, in Brazil, the voluntarism of the French president has the Rafale to be considered at the highest level by the Brazilian authorities. President Rousseff decided to freeze the procurement process in light of the global economic situation. We expect the resumption of the competition for 2012. We do of course not remain inactive and we again, because this is the ambition of the Brazilian authorities, multiplied agreements and technology partnerships, academia and industry to ensure our Brazilian officials will fully transfer the know- how and technologies that ensure the strengthening of Brazil's sovereignty over its air force.
> 
> *What about the Swiss decision?*
> 
> The military authorities Helvetian, through a rigorous process of assessment, have acclaimed the Rafale for the adequacy of its performance in terms of their business need. Moreover, the report published in the Swiss press emphasizes the rule of Rafale in its two competitors. *The Federal Council has announced that he makes his choice to the Gripen NG, the lowest ranked of the three planes in the running. But the choice of a fighter is always a political decision* that takes into account the quality of bilateral relations. Or these, you know, are not looking good right now ... [/B]



Google Übersetzer


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## no_koadsheding_plz

redaing the last paragraph of thw wikipedia entry about mrca it seems that it would announce the finalist by mid december,,isnt it quite near mid december..? when wiill be the finalis announced?
here is a snippet from the wiki 


> On 9 October 2011, despite reports that a winner would be announced in October 2011, Air Chief Marshal Norman Anil Kumar Browne stated that India is first approving the finalists' industrial offset offers, and allowing each time to make a final bid. A total cost based on life-cycle cost, purchase cost, and technology transfer value for each competitor will be calculated. The two competing financial bids were formally opened on 4 November 2011.[110][111] On 18 November, Air Chief Marshal Browne said that the winner would be announced by mid-December 2011


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## Tumba

no_koadsheding_plz said:


> redaing the last paragraph of thw wikipedia entry about mrca it seems that it would announce the finalist by mid december,,isnt it quite near mid december..? when wiill be the finalis announced?
> here is a snippet from the wiki



Typhoon Tranche3 has been chosen with TVC and CAPTOR-E(2000+ T/R module version) AESA ... delivery starts from mid 2014 ...


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## Aryavart

Tumba said:


> Typhoon Tranche3 has been chosen with TVC and CAPTOR-E(2000+ T/R module version) AESA ... delivery starts from mid 2014 ...



wtf..source please buddy

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## Tumba

Aryavart said:


> wtf..source please buddy



after delivery of first 18 or a squadron more Typhoon ... rest will be manufactured in Bangalore ... with Indian Israeli and Russian inputs... cheers... will open my Blue Label when news will come on public domain.... and american got thr pie ... in total 24+ C-130 to be inducted coz ....Indo Russian .... MTRA gone haywired .. mostly coz Russian high pigheadedness ...

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## Jason bourne

Tumba said:


> after delivery of first 18 or a squadron more Typhoon ... rest will be manufactured in Bangalore ... with Indian Israeli and Russian inputs... cheers... will open my Blue Label when news will come on public domain.... and american got thr pie ... in total 24+ C-130 to be inducted coz ....Indo Russian .... MTRA gone haywired .. mostly coz Russian high pigheadedness ...


 
ok then tell the numbers how many coming and what price ?


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## WHITESMOKE

Tumba said:


> Typhoon Tranche3 has been chosen with TVC and CAPTOR-E(2000+ T/R module version) AESA ... delivery starts from mid 2014 ...



Well could be or could be not.. if you know all this, please share the info about nos of fighters and $$ per fighter..

Guys i just bought Gordon's book on su 27. Is there any other fighter about which reading would be great form some more info. Actually about this su27 also i came to know from pdf.


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## sancho

After Swiss and most likely Japan, now Oman rejects the Eurofighter!



> *Omani F-16 deal means continued wait for Eurofighter *
> 
> Oman has placed a follow-on order with Lockheed Martin for a second batch of 12 F-16C/D Block 50 fighters, with the development likely to further delay the UK's hopes of selling the Eurofighter Typhoon to the nation...
> 
> ...Oman has also been considering a possible Typhoon acquisition since around 2008. British sources had recently suggested that a government-to-government deal could be concluded with the UK in early 2012, but the nation's fresh investment in the F-16 could result in this being delayed further.



Omani F-16 deal means continued wait for Eurofighter


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## Hulk

Tumba said:


> Typhoon Tranche3 has been chosen with TVC and CAPTOR-E(2000+ T/R module version) AESA ... delivery starts from mid 2014 ...


 
Fake reporting, but possible. I will go for rafale.

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## CANTANKEROUS

what about IAF's output regarding technical aspects of the two fighters (which one is better), besides the political aspects of the deal....??


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## DacterSaab

well my friend there are no political aspects cause neither France nor England, Germany, Italy, Spain will help us in a war and as for technical aspects I don't think there will be much of a difference as both fighters are equally capable with one exceeding the other in different areas so it all boils down to which one gives an industrial offer more beneficial to the country and also who has more money to pay our corrupt leaders.


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## CANTANKEROUS

DacterSaab said:


> and also who has more money to pay our corrupt leaders.



thats exactly what i was referring to, a political aspect of your leaders involved in the deal....


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## luckyyy

just 15 more days to go ..


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## sudhir007

Avionews - Agenzia stampa del settore aeronautico, elicotteristico, aerospaziale e della difesa

These are decisive days for the Eurofighter Group, as its plane is competing in two major tenders in Japan and India. The first tender seems to have been lost, as announced yesterday by the Japanese press, having favored the F-35 Joint Strike fighter of which 40 units should be purchased to boost its self-defense, despite being more expensive than the two other competitors, the Eurofighter Typhoon and Boeing's F/A-18 Super Hornet.

But, it is still hoping and waiting for the decision of the Security Council chaired by the Japanese Prime Minister Yoshihiko Noda, postponed from next Friday to Tuesday.

Another exciting event caused by New Delhi following a tender launched for military aircraft to be allocated to the Indian armed forces. In this case, apart from the Typhoon, the French Rafale of Dassault is competing; the Americans tender offer of the Super Hornet and the F-35 has already been dismissed.

The newly elected President of Finmeccanica, Giuseppe Orsi, said that he is confident in the choice of the Typhoon, and is representing Finmeccanica since it is participating to Eurofighter's programme, together with EADS and BAe Systems, of which it owns approximately 36%. Following the inauguration ceremony of the new establishment of its subsidiary Thales Alenia Space in L'Aquila, he said: "The Eurofighter is a very powerful machine. We hope that India makes the right choice". And speaking of a possible re-entry of the Americans in the competition, he declared that: " Indians have very rigorous processes, therefore I doubt the possibility of another candidate at this stage". (Avionews)

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## CANTANKEROUS

actually I was interested in IAF's findings regarding the capabilities of both fighters in indian air space as i have seen in many places (forums and articles) that Euro Fighter has given more weightage than rafale in comparison of two......


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## Tumba

CANTANKEROUS said:


> actually I was interested in IAF's findings regarding the capabilities of both fighters in indian air space as i have seen in many places (forums and articles) that Euro Fighter has given more weightage than rafale in comparison of two......



Eurofighter fares better in high altitude operations ,,, best of the two for operations over Himalayan region and Tibbetan Platue....
It has more powerful engines and is primarily designed for AOA combat ...


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## no_koadsheding_plz

as per wiki entry i thought winner will be announced by mid december,,its now past mid december,,and no indication of when it will be announced,, wat u guys say? will it be anounced before 2012 or in 2012?


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## Black Widow

Tumba said:


> Eurofighter fares better in high altitude operations ,,, best of the two for operations over Himalayan region and Tibbetan Platue....
> It has more powerful engines and is primarily designed for AOA combat ...



Does it suit our need???? (high AoA combat)??? I think MiG29 and Su30 are available for this role.Isn't it?


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## DANGER-ZONE

no_koadsheding_plz said:


> as per wiki entry i thought winner will be announced by mid december,,its now past mid december,,and no indication of when it will be announced,, wat u guys say? will it be anounced before 2012 or in 2012?



Delay ........ Delay ........ Daley .......... 
Mid of December doesn't mean the December of 2011

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## sudhir007

Google Translate

This is the new cliche of commentators, more or less informed, more or less well-intentioned. The Rafale is too expensive, so it does not sell, and if France still buy it to please Mr. Dassault. Welcome to Trade coffee!

"What is it?" As Marshal Foch said.

Yes, the Rafale is expensive. But expensive, does he mean too expensive? Too expensive compared to what? In the absence of a credible national defense? With the abandonment of one of the most successful industries in a country already hit by deindustrialization? A foreign competitors who are, or that would lead our country into a political dependence? It is also this that should be discussed and this blog will help.

On the basis of parliamentary reports, it is estimated by dividing the payment appropriations by the number of aircraft delivered in the period 2006-2011, the average price to about 116 million euros the unit.

But beware, this price is inclusive, that is to say that integrates the 19.6% VAT. A tax credit that comes from the Department of Defense, but amounts to the final in the state coffers: the taxpayer, the net price of the Rafale should be expressed net of tax. We are therefore at a price of 94 million euros.

A recent Senate report estimates the total cost of the Rafale program for public finances to 43.567 billion euros over the duration of the program (taking into account inflation since the launch in 1989) and that, on the basis of a control set of 286 planes. TTC is 152 million each (112 or HT). The difference compared to our previous calculation due to the fact that this price includes the development of the aircraft, now paid for the current version (F3). Remains an uncertainty in this calculation: the final number of aircraft to be built. Least there will be more and the unit price will be high - this is the well-known principle of economies of scale. Originally, 320 Rafale to be ordered by France. Currently, the target is 286 units, but the only thing certain is that 180 were actually ordered to date. And there was no export order.

Overall, and it is rare enough to point out, the prices originally planned (in constant currency) were held: the court of accounts speak of a drift of 4.7%, compared to 51 +, 8% for hélicioptère + Tiger or 29.1% for the Armoured Infantry Fighting (VBCI). As for the A400M, its price increased by 25% before the first flight ... Abroad, the Eurofighter has drifted about 70% according to the NOA, the Court of Auditors UK while the U.S. F-35 is a bottomless pit. The plane was still not in service, it is risky to advance a serious price. One thing is already certain: it will be the program of combat aircraft the most expensive in history! The latest available data suggest a total cost of 323 billion dollars for 2443 devices only for U.S. forces (USAF, USN, USMC). Is 101 millon euros the unit. Given that development costs have exploded by 40% and the production of 60 to 90% depending on the version, there is no evidence that this wild ride is over.

Yet, countries more or less comparable to France will buy it ... What it costs them. The United Kingdom, Italy, the Netherlands, Norway, Denmark, Canada, Israel, Australia, Turkey, Singapore - and maybe soon Japan will embark on this program. Contrary to the Rafale, it is not a multi-purpose aircraft, but a device primarily for ground attack. Besides all the senior Air Force plans to keep, next, an air-air interceptor not necessarily cheap either as the F-22 or the Eurofighter Typhoon ...

Five European countries of the Atlantic Alliance will choose the American F-35: This shows that the acquisition of a combat aircraft is above all a political choice. Sometimes the price is the issue, for example in the case of Switzerland who just prefer the Swedish Gripen Rafale French. The plane is cheaper, in fact, but for good reason: it is less efficient than the Rafale. Dassault propaganda? No, assessments of Swiss aviators themselves. But Switzerland probably did not need a plane in the range of Rafale. For its air defense, it has excellent F-18 and he had to replace its old F-5 ... a light fighter of the generation of Mirage III.

The Rafale is an excellent plane - probably the best ever produced by the French aerospace industry in a century of existence. The hundreds of aircraft delivered to date [104 exactly, 4 were lost and 10 of the first standard are mothballed in the Navy] can get an idea of &#8203;&#8203;these qualities. The Rafale has already participated in two wars (Afghanistan and Libya) and ensures the daily air defense missions (permanent Security Posture) and nuclear deterrence. Its versatility is its strength: it can carry out missions of air-air interception, reconnaissance, ground attack and strategic strikes, from the ground or an aircraft carrier. The only comparable aircraft in the world is the F-18 E / F.
Moreover, this flexibility can reduce the number of aircraft required to complete all missions. As an example, and according to the calculations of experts, that the Swiss wanted to do with their 22 aircraft to be acquired could have been achieved by 12 Rafale.

There is, in our country, a true national masochism, to denigrate our success. This is something strange. We prefer to be on board in the case of the Eurofighter, a plane that costs taxpayers more money in the countries concerned and which is struggling to be truly operational, as the British saw in Libya (and never seen in Afghanistan .. .)? We'd rather have to buy F-35 at a cost of acquisition and possession completely unpredictable, with the guarantee never to access the source code of the device and putting himself at the Washington thank you for the future (think the Franco-American crisis in Iraq at the time)?

It is true that the Rafale can not be exported. This is a very serious problem. But this should not make us forget that it was originally designed and is purchased to meet the needs of national defense. Is there a problem at that level? If so, let's talk.

The fact that it can not be exported (or not yet, hopefully) has a consequence for the state budget. The state commissions must keep afloat the production line of the aircraft. The pace is unsustainable: 11 planes per year, that is to say a month (except August when the plant is closed Merignac). The plant is designed to produce two per month - 22 per year.
But eleven aircraft a year, is it unreasonable for the military? To Rythmn, it takes two years to equip a single squadron of the Air Force. Over the next three years, she will receive 25 and the Navy 8. Again, it is not in the high speed, and armament. At this rate of 11 aircraft per year would require a quarter of a century to re-equip the armed fighters ...

Delivered to the dropper, but weighing heavy on public finances (1), the Rafale will remain in service probably forty years. Translate: in 2050, it will fly again. By then, it took to modernize they are not downgraded. Hence the strategic importance for our country to retain the ability to do so. It's called the offices and workshops. In short, industry.

(1) One could read recently in a feather too light as the Rafale accounted for 35% of capital expenditure of Defence. Not very serious: 14% (1.57 billion in 2012 for a total of 11.13), is already a lot.

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## sancho

CANTANKEROUS said:


> actually I was interested in IAF's findings regarding the capabilities of both fighters in indian air space as i have seen in many places (forums and articles) that Euro Fighter has given more weightage than rafale in comparison of two......



There were no credible reports about how they did during the trials, especially in A2A combats, so it's hard to tell what IAF found out. 
When you put manufacturers PR and some of the forum talks aside, you will see that both are highly capable in A2A but in different ways!

EF has slightly better TWR (the version offered to India could be even equal to Rafale, because of increased weight) and has advantage in high altitude and high speed combats. Rafale on the other side has a better wingloading and is better in low altitude / low speed (dogfights) combats. Both are said to have SC capabilities with A2A configs.
=> Both are highly maneuverable and agile, which is why both constantly beat all other non 5. gen fighters!

EF most probably will have a bigger radar with longer detection range, while Rafale has longer passive detection and identification range. EF will have a wider radar detection angle, while Rafale can use a higher variety of missiles at the same time in BVR .
=> Again, both are highly capable but have their own advantages!


That's why no matter which fighter IAF will take, they will get a highly capable A2A fleet for the future, especially when we add MKI and FGFA.
However, IAF don't wants just another A2A fighter and wants a multi role fighter, that's where the French fighter turns out to be completely superior so far. That's why I am all for Rafale for Indian forces, because it offers it all, excellent capabilities in all roles, not just in one !

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## marcos98



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## rockstarIN

marcos98 said:


>



This combination gonna rule the south asian skies..

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## Contract Killer

Akhir kab tak...

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## DacterSaab

sancho said:


> However, IAF don't wants just another A2A fighter and wants a multi role fighter, that's where the French fighter turns out to be completely superior so far. That's why I am all for Rafale for Indian forces, because it offers it all, excellent capabilities in all roles, not just in one !



Sancho the version of EFT offered to India Tranche 3B will have better multirole capabilities than the EFTs in current service and if chosen even EFT will do same missions as MKI which are primarily air superiority but have multirole capability. but the added advantage of lower RCS will allow these planes to conduct missions in regions where MKIs would be easily detected. And I've read EFT has lowest RCS of all 4.5 gen fighters.


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## Archie

DacterSaab said:


> Sancho the version of EFT offered to India Tranche 3B will have better multirole capabilities than the EFTs in current service and if chosen even EFT will do same missions as MKI which are primarily air superiority but have multirole capability. but the added advantage of lower RCS will allow these planes to conduct missions in regions where MKIs would be easily detected. And I've read EFT has lowest RCS of all 4.5 gen fighters.



But what you guys dont know is that , we need a fighter capable of good ground attack , not just another Airsuperioriity fighter
coz when you have 270 Su30 MKI and 214 FGFA , there is not going to be a need for another Airsuperiority fighter till MKI begin to retire in 2034


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## tvsram1992

Archie said:


> But what you guys dont know is that , we need a fighter capable of good ground attack , not just another Airsuperioriity fighter
> coz when you have 270 Su30 MKI and 214 FGFA , there is not going to be a need for another Airsuperiority fighter till MKI begin to retire in 2034


We dont need strike fighter, we need a true multirole platform so that it can go with out escort unlike Jaguars and Mig27.

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## sancho

DacterSaab said:


> Sancho *the version of EFT offered to India Tranche 3B will have better multirole capabilities* than the EFTs in current service and *if chosen even EFT will do same missions as MKI which are primarily air superiority* but have multirole capability. but the added advantage of lower RCS will allow these planes to conduct missions in regions where MKIs would be easily detected. And I've read EFT has lowest RCS of all 4.5 gen fighters.



No in both cases! The EF upgrades offered in MMRCA are not funded yet and as we learned the EF partners actually are only interested in hardly 20% of them and "only" as an upgrade (around 2025) for their T3As. They don't buy T3Bs that they offer to us and their T3As will be nothing else than T2s that are wired to add the upgrades like AESA radar, new avionics, TVC, CFTs and other capabilities in future. The only upgrade the EF partners cleared so far for their T3As are:

Software
wireings
Meteor missile

They also will have Paveway IV LGBs, which will be integrated now into the current version, but that's it! No bunker busters, no cruise missiles, no stand off weapons, no SEAD weapons, no anti ship missile, no real recon pod or additional techs are cleared so far, which means the T3As of the partner countries will still only be useful in A2A and CAS nothing else!

They don't just wait for another export customer, they wait for a partner that can take over their left orders and the fundings to upgrade the EF. That's why they offer us and Japan the partnership in the consortium, because financially the whole EF program is in a bad situation, which the AESA radar development showed. British government itself estimates that the EF would be fully A2G capable only by 2018, if the necessary fundings will be available and that would be the same for IAF if they select this fighter.
There are reasons why the EF might be selected, but from cost and operational terms, the Rafale is the obvious choice for our forces!




rockstar said:


> This combination gonna rule the south asian skies..


It's a nice picture of course also with the IJT in the background, but also kind of depressing when you think about that LCA is still only in prototype stage, the EF is so limited capable and the IJT is still waiting for induction into service. They all have potential, but can't let it out so far.

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## Archie

tvsram1992 said:


> We dont need strike fighter, we need a true multirole platform so that it can go with out escort unlike Jaguars and Mig27.



Yeah and Rafale fits the bill in replacing 5 sqds of Mig27 and 2 sqds of Jaguar

EF on the other can do nothing except providing escort to RAF Tornados as was witnessed in recent conflict in Libya


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## DacterSaab

Sancho if we study the map of current Indian Airforce bases we will notice that the MKIs can't be based too close to the borders so we are dependent on Mig-21s for A2A missions which will be replaced by LCAs and Mig27s and JAGs for A2G missions which should be replaced by MMRCA winner. Rafale in it's current version fits the bill perfectly but looses badly on industrial grouds where EF offer is much sweeter and lets not forget in the a fighter purchase is always a political decision 

As far as I understand RCS will make a huge difference when fighters are based along the borders and conduct missions in the vicinity here EF has the upper hand also if we are partners we can develop the future capabilities atleast for our fighters and the developers would join in to help reduce the cost. 
So i dont see why you are so insistent on current capabilities which will change in the coming years. Our Mig-29s have acquired Ground attack capability now and they were purchased in the 80s.
Potentially the EF is an excellent A2A fighter capable of A2G capabilities so it suits the mindset of our airforce which are Primarily an A2A force not taking A2G work that seriously. Also against some 3000 chinese aircrafts and 400 some PAF aircrafts. I wouldn't blame anyone If even the airforce think they need EFs to Add muscle to our MKI and FGFA fleet.

Also lets not forget that a fighter purchase is always a political decision. So far it doesn't make much difference which jet is chosen I'm happy with the selection process cause we'll get the best from the available list. 

But I'm keeping my fingers crossed this is India anythings possible remember the aerial tanker deal I wouldn't be surprised IF EF is chosen then the deal is cancelled due to cost and we end up buying 126 MIG-35s with Zuk-AE and 3d TVC very capable machines. we all remember the aerial tanker deal don't we


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## brahmastra

^^ Generally, fighter deployment is purely based on range of the fighter. Sukhoi offers larger range so deployed deep inside country.


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## tvsram1992

brahmastra said:


> ^^ Generally, fighter deployment is purely based on range of the fighter. Sukhoi offers larger range so deployed deep inside country.


Yes also rafale gives much better range and payload that flankers and since MRCA planes are reduced rcs machines they might be placed at border when compared to sukhois that can be detected easily. Generally advanced planes in our inventory are kept also at border but care will be taken that they are not prone to preemptive attacks .


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## Imran Khan

now we should close this thread ?


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## illusion8

^^^^ kyon? imra bhai aapko bhi lagne laga hai ki mmrca deal nahin hone wala


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## rockstarIN

sancho said:


> No in both cases! The EF upgrades offered in MMRCA are not funded yet and as we learned the EF partners actually are only interested in hardly 20% of them and "only" as an upgrade (around 2025) for their T3As. They don't buy T3Bs that they offer to us and their T3As will be nothing else than T2s that are wired to add the upgrades like AESA radar, new avionics, TVC, CFTs and other capabilities in future. The only upgrade the EF partners cleared so far for their T3As are:
> 
> Software
> wireings
> Meteor missile
> 
> They also will have Paveway IV LGBs, which will be integrated now into the current version, but that's it! No bunker busters, no cruise missiles, no stand off weapons, no SEAD weapons, no anti ship missile, no real recon pod or additional techs are cleared so far, which means the T3As of the partner countries will still only be useful in A2A and CAS nothing else!
> 
> They don't just wait for another export customer, they wait for a partner that can take over their left orders and the fundings to upgrade the EF. That's why they offer us and Japan the partnership in the consortium, because financially the whole EF program is in a bad situation, which the AESA radar development showed. British government itself estimates that the EF would be fully A2G capable only by 2018, if the necessary fundings will be available and that would be the same for IAF if they select this fighter.
> There are reasons why the EF might be selected, but from cost and operational terms, the Rafale is the obvious choice for our forces!
> 
> 
> .



Sancho, won't IAF think EF just like the MKI way. Understood that EF lacks bunker busters, SEAD, Stand off weapons etc. 

Cant we just get the damn good platform of EF and add our Sudrashan, Helina, Brahmos & other friendly nation's weapons on it for strike? the same way we did with MKI?


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## tvsram1992

Imran Khan said:


> now we should close this thread ?


Yes we need to start rafale news and discussions

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## DANGER-ZONE

tvsram1992 said:


> Yes we need to start rafale news and discussions



Shhhhh.....EF-2000 geeks will kill you ....

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## rockstarIN

danger-zone said:


> Shhhhh.....EF-2000 geeks will kill you ....



Whats your guys take on this? what PAF live to face in future from IAF? EF or Rafale..


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## Storm Force

BOTH PLANES ARE AWESOME 

If rafael wins IAF gets a TRUE MULTI ROLE PLATFORM brilliant in the strike role with spectra steath avionics system and great air to air and low altititude. with meteore ram jey BVR easy to intergrate cause of IAF long mirage2000 history


IF typhoon gets the NOD we get the 2nd best air supremacy fighter on the planet bar F22 RAPTOR. immense high altitide air power really useful over himlayers esp massive PLAAF threat/ Typhoon was built to eat flankers for breakfast ie RUSSIAN COLD WAR THREAT. 


Typhoon hass bigger radar more power BUT rafael has better jamming and more stealth/

ITS WIN WIN either way


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## SQ8

rockstar said:


> Whats your guys take on this? what PAF live to face in future from IAF? EF or Rafale..



Its all political now.
No more technical takes here.


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## sancho

DacterSaab said:


> Sancho if we study the map of current Indian Airforce bases we will notice that the MKIs can't be based too close to the borders so we are dependent on Mig-21s for A2A missions



There is no problem with placing MKI at bases closer to the border:

IAF Sukhois To Get Closer To Pakistan Border




DacterSaab said:


> As far as I understand RCS will make a huge difference when fighters are based along the borders and conduct missions in the vicinity here EF has the upper hand



Compared to MKI, most likely, compared to Rafale debatable.



DacterSaab said:


> also if we are partners we can develop the future capabilities atleast for our fighters and the developers would join in to help reduce the cost.



No we can't, because most of the "future capabilities" until 2025 are already under development by the EF consortium companies. TVC for example is under development for a decade now, but as long no country pays for the final developments, testing and integration it won't be available. That's the reason why they offered it to India via EF but also for LCA MK2, so we might get ToT, maybe even parts of the production, but can't participate in the development of the TVC tech anymore. Same applies to AESA radar, several avionics, CFTs...
The only section of the EF where India can really be a development partner is the Sea Typhoon, since there were only some studies about it so far and no other partner wants it, otherwise India and Indian companies will be partners in production of the EF, but not in R&D. In other words, they outsource the production to India, but that's what all the vendors offered, without saying we will be partners. So the main advantage of beeing a partner of the EF at this late stage, is actually ToT high techs, working together with many experienced companies and normally some shares if the EF will be exported, but when you look at how often it was rejected, that's not a real argument.
Also, EF upgrades will be developed jointly by all partners, since the costs will be shared. India can only go for special upgrades if the partners agrees and if we take the costs alone. 




DacterSaab said:


> So i dont see why you are so insistent on current capabilities which will change in the coming years.



Read my last post once again please, because the capabilities of the EF T2 and the new T3A won't change, since the partners didn't cleared any funds for integration of new A2G weapons or necessary techs.
On the other side, Rafale F3+ upgrade which is also on offer to India is fully funded by France, so all new capabilities like upgraded engines, AESA radar, avionics and weapons will be available for us without extra costs.


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## rockstarIN

Santro said:


> Its all political now.
> No more technical takes here.



I asked Pakistani's view on this forum, which jet they wanna see in IAF colours? (off course less capable in your point of view)


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## SQ8

rockstar said:


> I asked Pakistani's view on this forum, which jet they wanna see in IAF colours? (*off course less capable in your point of view*)



You seem to contradict the statements. 
Which jet would be best for the IAF or which jet being in the IAF would benefit Pakistan??

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## sancho

rockstar said:


> Sancho, won't IAF think EF just like the MKI way. Understood that EF lacks bunker busters, SEAD, Stand off weapons etc.
> 
> Cant we just get the damn good platform of EF and add our Sudrashan, Helina, Brahmos & other friendly nation's weapons on it for strike? the same way we did with MKI?



No because MKI and FGFA was specially procured by IAF as twin seat versions and with increased focus on beeing a real multi role fighter, not only with A2A in mind. The EF lacks exactly in these fields, because the twin seat version is basically a trainer only and the muti role capablities are very limited so far.
Adding weapons alone isn't enough, the techs needs to be upgraded too and there are some basic design problems with the EF as well.

- centerline station is directly between the gears, which limits the size of payload that can be carried there. That's why the EF can't carry just 1 cruise missile

- it has only 3 wet/heavy stations, which means carrying heavy payloads or a lot of fuel is not possible in deep or heavy strike roles

- it has 13 stations, which looks impressive on paper, but in reality 4 of them can only be used for BVR missiles and since no dedicated pod station is available, one weapon station will be occupied by the LDP. So the use of payload is compromised although it has many stations.

- LDP was integrated to the centerline station, which occupies a wet/heavy station. In strike role with LGBs the 3 heavy stations will be occupied by LDP and fuel tanks, so no bunker buster can be added anymore.

- no real recon pod was integrated yet and it is questionable if a similar pod like the RAF Tornados used would fit on the centerline station


The fact is, without CFTs to increase the ammount of fuel, but more importantly to free some of the heavy stations, the EF can't be used in deep strikes or for attacking bunkers and command posts.

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## sancho

Santro said:


> Its all political now.
> No more technical takes here.



Not exactly, more economical/industrial I would say because MMRCA has a big focus on these fields (high amount of ToT and offsets). Political advantages didn't played a big role, otherwise the US fighters had more to offer and wouldn't be rejected that early.


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## SQ8

sancho said:


> Not exactly, more economical/industrial I would say because MMRCA has a big focus on these fields (high amount of ToT and offsets). Political advantages didn't played a big role, otherwise the US fighters had more to offer and wouldn't be rejected that early.



I think politics did play a major role in the US snub.
Not to mention the many shackles such as CISMOA that come with US weapon systems.


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## MiG-21

Its more likely that Rafale would be the winner. 
It's past mid december, where the hell is the announcement?


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## sancho

Santro said:


> I think politics did play a major role in the US snub.
> Not to mention the many shackles such as CISMOA that come with US weapon systems.



What political advantage India would have by snubbing the US? I agree with the rest, but those issues were against IAF requirements and not political.




MiG-21 said:


> Its more likely that Rafale would be the winner.
> It's past mid december, where the hell is the announcement?



The calculations and negotiations will take time, hope they get to a decision till the end of this month.


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## rockstarIN

Santro said:


> You seem to contradict the statements.
> Which jet would be best for the IAF or which jet being in the IAF would benefit Pakistan??



benefit Pakistan?


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## SQ8

sancho said:


> What political advantage India would have by snubbing the US? I agree with the rest, but those issues were against IAF requirements and not political.
> .



Political statement....friends not masters to use the old line.



rockstar said:


> benefit Pakistan?



Yes.. which jet would be "easier(if the term is applicable)" for the PAF to tackle.


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## The enlightened

Santro said:


> I think politics did play a major role in the US snub.
> Not to mention the many shackles such as CISMOA that come with US weapon systems.


The entire evaluation was done purely on the basis of technical tests carried out by the IAF.
Even western analysts believe that


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## SQ8

The enlightened said:


> The entire evaluation was done purely on the basis of technical tests carried out by the IAF.
> Even western analysts believe that



We are talking about the decision, NOT the evaluation.


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## The enlightened

Santro said:


> We are talking about the decision, NOT the evaluation.


Okay Maybe I wasnt clear enough b4
The 'decision' i.e to downsize the contenders from 6 to 2, was done purely on the basis of the evaluation


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## illusion8

[/COLOR]


Santro said:


> We are talking about the decision, NOT the evaluation.



Its more to do with - doing India's bit to prop up sagging economies of Europe, apart from the really old platforms proposed by the US companies, But the F16 with AESA was mouth watering only problem was PAF operating the same.

Yes you r right, the aspect was both political and economics.


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## Tumba

decision has been postponed coz of X mas season holidays .. as most of the Euro negotiators want to go home for Holidays ... i think now decision will be in public only after X mas season...


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## FNFAL

I hope decision makers are pretty sure when they think of BAE vs EADS..now that we are happilly gazzing in both their windows on the defence street...Im sure decision makers have a list of potential tie-ups/co-ops/tots palnned for the years ahead with each of the...the mrca will defo go to the one partnerhip thats holds more promise in the coming years..heres my peg to a wise decison  ..(gulp... )


----------



## rockstarIN

Santro said:


> Yes.. which jet would be "easier(if the term is applicable)" for the PAF to tackle.



Name it......


----------



## The enlightened

Santro said:


> yes.. which jet would be "easier(if the term is applicable)" for the PAF to tackle.


IMNSHO
I'd say that rafale would probably be easier to tackle
but to tell u the truth no on can really say much about such a case
these a/c arent even combat proven


----------



## Tumba

Santro said:


> Political statement....friends not masters to use the old line.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes.. which jet would be "easier(if the term is applicable)" for the PAF to tackle.



i dont think out of two .. any fighter will be easier to tackle .... both are better than current MKI configuration ... and Pakistani has no capability to match either on Quality or quantity ...

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## Storm Force

I agree TUMBA.

Both rafale & Typhoon are MASSIVE in threat to current & near planned purchases. of PAF

I would be shocked if the FC20 had an engine or radar or Electronic warefare capability of typhoon or rafale. 

the ramjet bvr meteore is rated the best in the world wen it enters service. 

having said that i think mmrca is about facing up to PLAAF not PAF.


----------



## sudhir007

*Christmas gift?*



> Christmas gift? : North News - India Today
> The Defence ministry and air force officials are working hard, going through complex calculations to decide the lowest bidder for the 126 fighter jet contract.
> 
> Grapevine has it that the winner between the French contender Rafale and the European consortium's Eurofighter will be declared after Christmas. After all, the employees of the two contenders are keen to enjoy the holiday season.



So 2 match on box day waiting for 26 dec.
1. India Vs Australia
2. Rafale Vs EF 
Let see who gona win

---------- Post added at 12:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:27 PM ----------

French air force chief confident of Rafale victory in Indian contest

Gen Jean-Paul Paloméros, chief of staff of the French air force, is confident about the Dassault Rafale's prospects in major international competitions, and partially attributes the aircraft's previous losses in Singapore and South Korea to politics.

"I've flown in the Rafale and I know what it can do," said Paloméros, speaking to Flightglobal at the Langkawi International Maritime and Aerospace exhibition in Malaysia late last month. "Rafale was designed since conception as a multi-role aircraft," he added.

According to Paloméros, the Rafale is well suited to handle emerging air-to-air and air-to-ground threats in the Asia-Pacific region.

"The Rafale has very high manoueverability," he said. "It will be getting an AESA [active electronically scanned array] radar and it has good weapons. It will also receive the MBDA Meteor air-to-air missile, offering extra range against any types of threats."

The AESA version of the Thales RBE2 radar will be introduced into Rafale in 2013, when French forces begin receiving the fourth block of production aircraft. The Meteor is still undergoing development, but should be deployed on the Rafale after the middle of the decade.

Paloméros is confident the Rafale will emerge triumphant in India's medium multi-role combat aircraft competition for 126 fighters, where it is on a shortlist with the Eurofighter Typhoon. Indian media reports suggest the decision is imminent, possibly before the end of 2011.

"The Indians are working on their decision," he said. "We have close contacts with India owing to the [Dassault] Mirage 2000. They are more than happy, and are upgrading these aircraft. They know French industry very well. I'm confident in this competition. They are real experts and did a great job evaluating the aircraft."

He added the Rafale is also well suited for Malaysia's 18-aircraft multi-role combat aircraft competition. A Royal Malaysian Air Force team visited France this year to conduct flight trials in the type. Paloméros said although the weather was "horrible", the visitors liked the aircraft and gained the opportunity to work with Rafale in challenging conditions.

As for the design's failure so far to win a foreign buyer, Paloméros said: "In Singapore the Rafale was in the final selection against the Boeing F-15, as was the case in South Korea's F-X I competition. The F-15 was a good choice for both countries, but its selection had a lot to do with politics as well."

He said the French air force is working hard to help pin down a Rafale sale in the United Arab Emirates, which recently stunned the defence aerospace industry by issuing a request for a proposal linked to the Eurofighter Typhoon and also spoke with Boeing and Lockheed Martin. The UAE has a long-running requirement to replace 60 Mirage 2000-9s.

"We are working very hard with the UAE. They have participated in operations over Libya alongside Rafale and they know what they want. In terms of capabilities, we are in the same room. As for negotiations, we'll see."


----------



## SQ8

rockstar said:


> Name it......



The rafale..
Less available "tested" A2A weaponry.... as the MICA is still untested and has a comparatively short range.
and the Meteor is still under development.
In contrast, the EF has the Aim-120 readily available along with the ASRAAM... extremely potent A2A mix.
Add the meteor to it when it comes available.


----------



## Archie

Santro said:


> The rafale..
> Less available "tested" A2A weaponry.... as the MICA is still untested and has a comparatively short range.
> and the Meteor is still under development.
> In contrast, the EF has the Aim-120 readily available along with the ASRAAM... extremely potent A2A mix.
> Add the meteor to it when it comes available.


 
yeah But when you look at the fact that India currently have 160 Su 30MKI , and this number will rise to 270 by 2017 , add to that some 110 Mig 29smt/K operated by IAF and Navy , not to mention the fact that PAKFA will start entering service in 2018-20 

so A 2 A engagements are not really a priority , what is however urgently required is a good Ground attack capability since the Aircraft is meant to replace all Mig 27s and some 60-80 Jaguars in ground attack role
This was also the reason why we decided to upgrade the Mirage 2000 despite the high cost coz it was our best ground attack fighter currently in service 

India requires the mmrca to conduct ground attack missions without escorts , but not necessarily replace MKI in A 2 A engagements 
The recent upgrade deal for Mirage 2000 will ensure that Mirages donot require escort from Mig 29smt while conducting bombing operations

Also India has signed an agreement with Russia to induct 42 MKIs with Super 30 upgrade with deliveries begining in 2014 , these will be followed by upgrade of remaining 230 MKIs at the cost of 6 Billion USD 

The super 30 upgrade include AESA Radar , Better EW suites , Ability to Launch Standoff Missiles like Taurus , Brahmos and Nirbhay as well as RCS reduction to the tune of 66-80% which will bring down the RCS of MKI to the level of Mig 29smt

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## DANGER-ZONE

Archie said:


> *yeah But when you look at the fact that India currently have 160 Su 30MKI , and this number will rise to 270 by 2017 , add to that some 110 Mig 29smt/K operated by IAF and Navy , not to mention the fact that PAKFA will start entering service in 2018-20
> *
> so A 2 A engagements are not really a priority , what is however urgently required is a good Ground attack capability since the Aircraft is meant to replace all Mig 27s and some 60-80 Jaguars in ground attack role
> This was also the reason why we decided to upgrade the Mirage 2000 despite the high cost coz it was our best ground attack fighter currently in service
> 
> India requires the mmrca to conduct ground attack missions without escorts , but not necessarily replace MKI in A 2 A engagements
> The recent upgrade deal for Mirage 2000 will ensure that Mirages donot require escort from Mig 29smt while conducting bombing operations
> 
> Also India has signed an agreement with Russia to induct 42 MKIs with Super 30 upgrade with deliveries begining in 2014 , these will be followed by upgrade of remaining 230 MKIs at the cost of 6 Billion USD
> 
> The super 30 upgrade include AESA Radar , Better EW suites , Ability to Launch Standoff Missiles like Taurus , Brahmos and Nirbhay as well as RCS reduction to the tune of 66-80% which will bring down the RCS of MKI to the level of Mig 29smt



here we go again .... Sick Sick Sick 
why are you dragging all your upgrades, weapon deals, other fighters ... aint we talking about Rafale or Ef-2000. 
will MMRCA back your airforce or your Airforce will back them.


----------



## tvsram1992

danger-zone said:


> here we go again .... Sick Sick Sick
> why are you dragging all your upgrades, weapon deals, other fighters ... aint we talking about Rafale or Ef-2000.
> will MMRCA back your airforce or your Airforce will back them.


Because they have some thing to do with MRCA


----------



## SQ8

tvsram1992 said:


> Because they have some thing to do with MRCA



Not in this context they dont.


----------



## Black Widow

Santro said:


> Not in this context they dont.



Sorry In this context the statement was valid. if you read his post, he clearly mentioned why we need MMRCA. Some ppl liking EFT and some are suggesting to increase Su30MKI fleet by another 120. 

he focused on the need for Rafael and mentioned the package Su30MKI will get. This post is well in context to show how India can achieve complete solution by buying Rafael.

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## rockstarIN

One thing is sure is that if we select EF, we will get AIM-120 in our weaponry, whereas we are getting MICA thru Mirage deal.

Then we have most of the A2A with us..Aim-120, R-77, MICA & Derby,,,

In future, meteor too


----------



## Abingdonboy

^^^ + ASTRA!!


----------



## SQ8

Black Widow said:


> Sorry In this context the statement was valid. if you read his post, he clearly mentioned why we need MMRCA. Some ppl liking EFT and some are suggesting to increase Su30MKI fleet by another 120.
> 
> he focused on the need for Rafael and mentioned the package Su30MKI will get. This post is well in context to show how India can achieve complete solution by buying Rafael.



I did not get that from that post.. nor was the Rafale much mentioned.
The MKI will escort any jet regardless of what it is.. and the MMRCA no matter what it is will still pound ground when needed.


----------



## Jason bourne

rockstar said:


> One thing is sure is that if we select EF, we will get AIM-120 in our weaponry, whereas we are getting MICA thru Mirage deal.
> 
> Then we have most of the A2A with us..Aim-120, R-77, MICA & Derby,,,
> 
> In future, meteor too




even novatar


----------



## Storm Force

Just relax PEOPLE ALL WILL BE revealed by 26th or 27th of THIS MONTH.

but $20 billion for 126 MMRCA (phew thats a lot dough $$$$$$) 

ADD 

$4.1 BILLION FOR 10 GLOBEMASTERS (YES 10 TRANSPORT PLNES) 

INDIA IS BEING FLEECED

ME THINKS

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## janon

Storm Force said:


> Just relax PEOPLE ALL WILL BE revealed by 26th or 27th of THIS MONTH.
> 
> but $20 billion for 126 MMRCA (phew thats a lot dough $$$$$$)
> 
> ADD
> 
> $4.1 BILLION FOR 10 GLOBEMASTERS (YES 10 TRANSPORT PLNES)
> 
> INDIA IS BEING FLEECED
> 
> ME THINKS



That is inaccurate. 20 billion would be for 189 aircrafts, not 126, should the follow on option be exercised (which almost certainly will be). That is still a lot of money though.

http://articles.timesofindia.indiat...1_mmrca-eurofighter-typhoon-indo-russian-fgfa

And the 4.1 billion is not only for the transport aircrafts, but a whole lot of supporting infrastructure, including a half billion dollar high altitude engine testing facility which India did not have, but desperately needed. So far India was dependent on Russia's facilities for that. The IAF is certain to buy more C-17s in future, and at that time all these associated costs wont be needed. So in time, the deal will work out to be cheaper than what it seems as of now.


----------



## indian navy

Storm Force said:


> Just relax PEOPLE ALL WILL BE revealed by 26th or 27th of THIS MONTH.
> 
> but $20 billion for 126 MMRCA (phew thats a lot dough $$$$$$)
> 
> ADD
> 
> $4.1 BILLION FOR 10 GLOBEMASTERS (YES 10 TRANSPORT PLNES)
> 
> INDIA IS BEING FLEECED
> 
> ME THINKS



are you all right or out of mind do you know population of india 

well we are spending nothing to protect our citizen life , well on war only two thing , your soldiers , your weapons and you know very well condition of our weapons


----------



## Storm Force

No offence guys BUT some times these numbers are mind boggling.

esp wen you add the potential PAK FA cost of $30billon and upwards from 2020..

Dont get me wrong i already know the 2012 defense budget will over $40 billion BUT STIL large nos for a developing nation


----------



## janon

Storm Force said:


> No offence guys BUT some times these numbers are mind boggling.
> 
> esp wen you add the potential PAK FA cost of $30billon and upwards from 2020..
> 
> Dont get me wrong i already know the 2012 defense budget will over $40 billion BUT STIL large nos for a developing nation



This is a developing nation of 1.2 billion people, and a trillion dollar economy. By the time PAK-FA starts to arrive, and by the time the last MRCA is delivered, it would be a multi trillion dollar economy. Our defence budget, with all these capital aquisitions involved, is still a small percentage of our GDP compared to our neighbours or the rest of the world.

Can you think of any other developing nation that is so huge population-wise or by the size of the economy? Only China, and their _declared_ defence spending is about three times bigger than ours.

So you can't make a mindless comparison with other developing countries. Obviously a bigger country will have bigger expenditures in all fields, including defence.

So if you modify your last sentence as "large numbers for a large developing nation", you will understand the point.


----------



## luckyyy

the final the countdown ......

* 10 days to go...*

Europe - The Final Countdown live 1986 - YouTube


----------



## Roybot

Storm Force said:


> No offence guys BUT some times these numbers are mind boggling.
> 
> esp wen you add the potential PAK FA cost of $30billon and upwards from 2020..
> 
> Dont get me wrong i already know the 2012 defense budget will over $40 billion BUT STIL large nos for a developing nation



The procurement costs will be spread out over the years.


----------



## sancho

> *UAE's Rafale deal is no mirage*
> 
> After a long and often tortuous process, the UAE is understood to be in the final stage of negotiations for the procurement of about 60 Dassault Rafale fighters with many industry insiders predicting that contracts could be signed during the Dubai Airshow. Jon Lake reports...
> 
> ...The UAE never ran a full competition to select a fighter to replace the Mirage 2000s and simply opened negotiations with Dassault aimed at acquiring an improved and upgraded Rafale.
> 
> The UAE has periodically looked at competing aircraft and has talked to other suppliers &#8211; *fuelling regular reports of a change of heart over the French fighter*. But despite requesting technical information on the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet in September 2010, the more recent reports of negotiations with Lockheed Martin for the supply of more F-16E/F Desert Falcons (because the French offering of an advanced Rafale version was reportedly seen as too expensive), and optimistic noises emanating from the Eurofighter consortium, *the UAE&#8217;s eyes have kept returning to the Rafale*, which has continued to be aggressively and energetically marketed to the Emiratis....
> 
> ...Many insiders now seem to accept that the *Rafale is a &#8216;done deal&#8217; in the UAE*.
> 
> This is surprising in some respects as, although the *Rafale performed extremely impressively during recent operations over Libya*, the UAE has made no secret of the fact that it requires an aircraft significantly more advanced than the current Rafale versions in service with the Armée de l&#8217;Air...
> 
> ...But whatever the reason for the UAE&#8217;s unwillingness to fund the required Rafale improvements, it seems as though the deal is &#8216;back on&#8217;, perhaps with the UAE having scaled back its requirements, or perhaps with the French government having decided that it is willing to &#8216;bite the bullet&#8217; and fund the necessary development in order to try to win what could be a pivotal first export order for the Rafale.



Arabian Aerospace - UAE's Rafale deal is no mirage


The author is known to be pro EF, but since Libya we can see, that even he is impressed by the Rafale! However, the UAE will continue to milk the French and get everything out of this chance, even though the outcome might be clear. They simply are in the better position to negotiate and they know it.


----------



## jha

> The UAE has made no secret of the fact that it requires an aircraft significantly more advanced than the current Rafale versions in service with the Armée de l&#8217;Air.
> 
> *It specifies a longer-range active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar with ground moving target detection and tracking (GMTI/GMTT), &#8216;interlaced&#8217; air-to-air and air-to-ground modes, a more capable version of the Spectra electronic warfare suite, integration with MBDA&#8217;s Meteor long-range missile and, crucially, with more powerful versions of the Snecma M88 engines, producing more than nine tonnes of thrust (about 1.5 tonnes more than the current engine).*
> 
> Over time, Meteor integration and some AESA and Spectra improvements have become a funded part of the core Rafale programme, but the Armée de l&#8217;Air has no stated or funded requirement for a more powerful engine, which the UAE reportedly still wants and which many analysts believe would be essential for long range air-to-ground operations with heavy weapons in the region (and certainly to allow carriage of a three-missile heavy strike loadout using the Black Shaheen). *Nor are planned French radar and Spectra improvements believed to be sufficient to meet UAE requirements.*
> 
> There may also have been a stumbling block in that the UAE is understood to have demanded that the existing Mirage 2000-9s must be &#8216;bought back&#8217; by the French either for resale or for use by the French forces at an estimated unit price of &#8364;20 million &#8211; equivalent to about &#8364;1.2 billion for the whole fleet.
> 
> *Historically, Dassault has tended not to use its own resources to fund military aircraft development, preferring its government clients to do so. In this case, the cost of developing the upgrades required by the UAE has been estimated at 4-5 billion euros &#8211; or more modestly at &#8364;2 billion ($2.9 billion)*, a sum which the UAE has reportedly expected the French side to pay.
> 
> Though the UAE has previously invested in the development of more advanced versions of fighters that it has bought (funding the development of both the Mirage 2000-9 and of the Block 60 F-16E/F in return for a share of profits from any export of aircraft with the features it had paid to develop), it seems not to have the appetite to do so for a modernised and advanced version of the Rafale, or it may be disinclined to be the launch customer and &#8216;guinea pig&#8217; for such a variant.




Arabian Aerospace - UAE's Rafale deal is no mirage


----------



## anathema

Damn the wait is too Long....Results after Christmas ? Somehow - I dont think so.


----------



## rockstarIN

Any thing expected before at least new year, somebody gonna enjoy 2012 and some one's fighter jet will lose all hopes...


----------



## marcos98



Reactions: Like Like:
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## sancho

jha said:


> Arabian Aerospace - UAE's Rafale deal is no mirage



Old news taken up once more by the author, although the UAE agreed to most of the technical specifications of the Rafale F3+ after they saw how it performed in Libya. 




anathema said:


> Damn the wait is too Long....Results after Christmas ? Somehow - I dont think so.



I still expect the end of the year, because the shortlisting, just like the opening of the comercial bids were delayed for 1 or 2 weeks, behind the schedule IAF officials stated. Now we heard something about mid dec, so 1 or 2 weeks more are possible.


----------



## sancho

> *Japan deal blow for Eurofighter*
> 
> JAPAN will buy American-built F-35 fighter plane over BAE Systems&#8217; Warton-built Eurofighter.
> 
> The two planes, and Boeing&#8217;s Super Hornet, were in the running for the lucrative contract for 42 aircraft.
> 
> The deal was estimated to be worth £5.1bn.
> 
> A BAE spokesman said the Euro-fighter consortium was disappointed with losing out after five years of work on the bidding process &#8211; but other opportunities were being pursued...
> 
> ...*The Indian government is likely to announce its choice of jet between Christmas and New Year.* It is looking at buying 126 jets in a deal worth up to £7bn.



Japan deal blow for Eurofighter - Business - Blackpool Gazette




> *Decision of MMRCA should happen in India in the coming days* (google translated)
> 
> The Ministry of Defence of India indicates that a decision is imminent on whether the Air Force will buy the Typhoon or the Rafale as the army chief, General VK Singh, should not spend one more year in office, and that ballistic missiles manufactured in India are the success story this year. These are the highlights of the End of Year Review of the Ministry of Defense, an annual summary released Wednesday.
> 
> *The terms of the 2011 review of "the decisive year for the MMRCA," suggesting that the winner of the competition to sell 126 multi medium combat aircraft to India these days to be announced*. In April, the Ministry of Defense eliminated the Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Saab and Mikoyan, leaving only the Dassault Rafale fighters and Eurofighter Typhoon in the fight. On November 4, the two trade proposals were opened. The Indian Air Force gave its benchmarking and is now with the Ministry of Defense.
> 
> Once the winning bid is announced, the Defense Ministry will convene a "Contract Negotiation Committee" to negotiate a final price. Defense Ministry sources indicate that both the price quoted by suppliers is significantly higher than the $ 8 billion that the Union Cabinet cleared for this purchase...



Google Übersetzer


----------



## Rupeshkumar

the wait is really getting long now. I fear that they may cancel the deal and if they do it then it will be really tough to handle the humiliation on PDF


----------



## luckyyy

Rupeshkumar said:


> the wait is really getting long now. I fear that they may cancel the deal and if they do it then it will be really tough to handle the humiliation on PDF


 
deal or no deal ...just 9 days to go...

anyway , with new improved su-30 ...and FGFA on card..humiliation only meant for enemies..

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## Storm Force

Theres no humilation.

IF THE IAF cancels the deal its because THEY HAVE BETTER OPTION with $20 billion.

maybe the LCA MK2 will be closer than we think IE 2015 (why buy mmrca in 2015 then)

maybe PAK FA is closer than 2020 ie 2017 (can we afford both in 2017)

maybe THE USA is making outrageous promises on F35

regardless

I WISH A DECISION either way


----------



## SpArK

atul0408 said:


> According to De fence contracts the company which will win has to spend 30% in india
> 
> *Any idea which company will benefits in private sector , so that we can buy shares and make some money*






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## sancho

Storm Force said:


> why buy mmrca in 2015 then


Because LCA won't give IAF alternative weapons or credible strike capability, while Indian industry won't benefit from ToT and offsets. 




Storm Force said:


> can we afford both in 2017


Otherwise we haven't shortlisted 2 x twin engine fighters and there are even thoughts about another one (AMCA), IAF/MoD must have some calculations about it right?


----------



## rockstarIN

sancho said:


> Because LCA won't give IAF alternative weapons or credible strike capability, while Indian industry won't benefit from ToT and offsets.



ToT..ToT, we are in this business for decades.. We produced right from Mig-21s, Jaguars, MKIs from 1970s ..


Does it very helpful for the Indian Defense aviation Industry? looking at LCA's plight I'm very doubtful..

Meanwhile fingers are crossed to get the announcement.


----------



## sancho

rockstar said:


> ToT..ToT, we are in this business for decades.. We produced right from Mig-21s, Jaguars, MKIs from 1970s ..
> 
> 
> Does it very helpful for the Indian Defense aviation Industry? looking at LCA's plight I'm very doubtful..
> 
> Meanwhile fingers are crossed to get the announcement.



It might have, if we had used it the right way in the LCA project, by HAL taking the lead with their experience in the design and engine fields. But we went a different way and didn't and that's why that know how was lost mainly. Similarly, we build U209 subs under licence and instead a follow order for fast production of more, we went with new French subs. Again that know how was lost and we had to start from the scratch again.
As long as we make such key mistakes in our procurement and development policies, it ToT won't get us much, but it's a fact that it's a big requirement in the MMRCA and that's something that LCA can't give us.


----------



## sancho

> *Govt to announce winner for 126-plus combat jets in 2012*
> 
> The government is all set to announce the winner of the Indian Air Force (IAF) competition for 126-plus combat jets early in 2012.
> 
> Authoritative sources told India Strategic defence magazine (..:: India Strategic ::.. Home Page: The authoritative monthly on Defence and Strategic Affairs.) that the process was nearing completion but there were volumes of paperwork and the complicated costs involving Transfer of Technology (ToT), Offsets, Lifecycle Upgrades and Maintenance Support. Every detail was being looked into as this was Indias -- and the worlds -- single biggest defence tender yet in the 21st century.
> 
> The defence ministry has not set any deadline to the process, but it could be a New Year gift to the Indian Air Force as the announcement could come around mid-January.
> 
> Notably, the financial bids of the two finalists in the fray, European consortium EADS' Eurofighter and French Rafale, are valid only till Dec 31. Both of them could be asked to extend the validity of their offers for another few months.
> 
> However, even if the choice is made within this month, the winner would be asked for an extension to facilitate negotiations and finalisation.
> 
> It may be recalled that the IAF chief, Air Chief Marshal Norman Anil Kumar Browne, had said Dec 18 in Bangalore that *by mid-December we should have a very good sense of who has been selected".
> 
> Understandably, by now, the IAF and the defence ministry should know who is winning -- or who is the lowest* -- but till all the voluminous paperwork has been examined to the last full stop, the files are Top Secret and literally For Your Eyes Only for those dealing with the subject.
> 
> The Air chief, who was speaking on the margins of a conference at the Institute of Aerospace Medicine, had also said: "I can't tell anything till the time we finish that work, as there are a lot of complicated calculations and figures that need to be checked."
> 
> Initially, when the tender was floated in August 2007, the estimated cost for 126 aircraft with two years support and weapons was $10 billion (Rs42,000 crores). Both the European finalists are known to be more expensive than the four others who lost out in the fray, and the defence ministry revised the estimate some time back in terms of the dollar and the euro.
> 
> The revision could be 30 to 40% of the pre-bid estimate, or say around to $13-14 billion. But this is only a guess as the winner has to help set up the manufacturing units in India and costing for this is not available. Neither of the two aircraft has been sold anywhere the way India wants.
> 
> There is also an option clause for another 63 aircraft. Their cost would be additional.
> 
> Meanwhile, the Indian rupee has been depreciating, but fluctuations are factored in all defence acquisitions and do not hinder the process. No fresh cabinet approval is required in such cases.
> 
> Although procedurally the lowest bidder, designated L-1 in the defence ministry jargon, should be the winner, the choice has to be approved by the government, specifically the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) headed by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh. It includes the ministers for finance (Pranab Mukherjee), Defence (AK Antony), home (P Chidambaram) and external affairs (SM Krishna).
> 
> Antony has stated that the selection would be on technical and financial merit, that is, on the basis of IAF's requirements and the price offered. The bid is submitted in two parts: technical and financial.
> 
> The IAF disqualified four others in the fray -- Sweden's Saab Gripen, Russia's MiG-35 and the US Boeing F-18 Super Hornet and Lockheed Martin F-16 Super Viper on the basis of points in its selection process.
> 
> As per the procedure, IAF is not supposed to give any grading like Number 1 or Number 2 to the finalists and both are equal for the defence ministry.
> 
> *Nonetheless, the government is not bound to select the L-1 as the winner, even if it is much lower, as there is an over-riding clause in the tender. If in the national strategic calculus, the L-2 can be of strategic significance for India, then the CCS can go in for that aircraft.*
> 
> In diplomatic circles, the deal is being described as France (Rafale) vs Europe (Germany, Britain, Spain and Italy make up the consortium that makes the Eurofighter).
> 
> Eurofighters supporters say that India could gain significant weight in the global arena through this deal.
> 
> The French say that they have supplied the best of their systems to India without any restrictions so far, and that it would be much easier to deal with a single country than the bureaucracies of four others over the life time of the aircraft -- 6,000 flying hours or 40 years as stipulated in the tender.
> 
> So who is the winner?
> Procedurally, L-1.
> 
> Strategically, only the CCS, the cabinet secretary, the National Security Adviser, the foreign secretary and the defence secretary can decide.



Govt to announce winner for 126-plus combat jets in 2012 - World - DNA

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## WHITESMOKE

I sense the decision would tilt more towards strategic benefits..


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## praveen007

*Found this very funny and intresting picture for
rafale mid life upgrade
on net.*
.
.





.
Enjoy.

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## sudhir007

UK, Italy, Germany, Spain pitch for Eurofighter - Indian Express

Days before the government is set to finalise the winner of the multi-billion dollar contract to purchase new generation fighters for the Air Force, four heads of governments from the UK, Germany, Italy and Spain have jointly pitched for the Eurofighter in a confidential letter to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh by lending &#8220;political support&#8221; to the high-profile commercial contract.

The Eurofighter is in a face-off with France&#8217;s Rafale for the race to provide 126 fighters to the Air Force, that is grappling with a serious shortage of combat aircraft. A decision on the matter is expected within the next few weeks, with Defence Ministry officials indicating that the winner would be announced by the first week of January.

In a joint &#8220;confidential&#8221; missive to the Prime Minister sent last week, British PM David Cameron, German Chancellor Angela Merkel &#8212; along with Italian and Spanish Prime Ministers &#8212; have said the EADS&#8217; Eurofighter is an &#8220;excellent aircraft that stands on its own merit&#8221;. 
The joint letter has also welcomed India as the &#8220;fifth partner country&#8221; in jointly developing the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA), in the event of Eurofighter being chosen for the contract. The four PMs have also reaffirmed the &#8220;security of supply&#8221; in the case of Eurofighter Typhoon.

This joint letter, sources said, is &#8220;unprecedented&#8221; since the four countries have lent strategic support to the commercial deal ahead of the final decision. They are pitted against the French government-backed Rafale.

It may be recalled that US President Barack Obama had also lobbied for the US aircraft with Prime Minister Manmohan Singh during his visit to India last year and followed it up with a letter highlighting this contract as being important to his administration. However, the bids of two US companies, along with the Russian and Swedish firms, were rejected after technical evaluation in April this year.

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## Abingdonboy

^^^ this kind of lobbying will do little as MoD/GoI (especially in _this_ climate) Are keen to keep things free of political interference and any hint of corruption. MoD has public ally stated multiple times that the final decision will be made purely on merit/cost and free from political considerations, for once I'm inclined to believe MoD will be true to their word.


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## rockstarIN

sudhir007 said:


> UK, Italy, Germany, Spain pitch for Eurofighter - Indian Express
> 
> Days before the government is set to finalise the winner of the multi-billion dollar contract to purchase new generation fighters for the Air Force, four heads of governments from the UK, Germany, Italy and Spain have jointly pitched for the Eurofighter in a confidential letter to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh by lending &#8220;political support&#8221; to the high-profile commercial contract.
> 
> The Eurofighter is in a face-off with France&#8217;s Rafale for the race to provide 126 fighters to the Air Force, that is grappling with a serious shortage of combat aircraft. A decision on the matter is expected within the next few weeks, with Defence Ministry officials indicating that the winner would be announced by the first week of January.
> 
> In* a joint &#8220;confidential&#8221; missive to the Prime Minister sent last week, British PM David Cameron, German Chancellor Angela Merkel &#8212; along with Italian and Spanish Prime Ministers &#8212; have said the EADS&#8217; Eurofighter is an &#8220;excellent aircraft that stands on its own merit&#8221;. *
> The joint letter has also welcomed India as the &#8220;fifth partner country&#8221; in jointly developing the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA), in the event of Eurofighter being chosen for the contract. The four PMs have also reaffirmed the &#8220;security of supply&#8221; in the case of Eurofighter Typhoon.
> 
> This joint letter, sources said, is &#8220;unprecedented&#8221; since the four countries have lent strategic support to the commercial deal ahead of the final decision. They are pitted against the French government-backed Rafale.
> 
> It may be recalled that US President Barack Obama had also lobbied for the US aircraft with Prime Minister Manmohan Singh during his visit to India last year and followed it up with a letter highlighting this contract as being important to his administration. However, the bids of two US companies, along with the Russian and Swedish firms, were rejected after technical evaluation in April this year.




ah ha ha ha this is epic...head of governments assuring about the quality of the aircraft to our prime minister. Both the parties does not know nothing about its technicals


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## WHITESMOKE

Abe khol bhi do bids ab... happy new year bhi hone wala hai ab to...

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## Contract Killer

Aayegaa aayegaa aayegaa........ Aayega aane walaa... aayegaa... Aayegaa


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## Solar Flare

WHITESMOKE said:


> Abe khol bhi do bids ab... happy new year bhi hone wala hai ab to...



Bhai lagta hai new year ke baad hi result aayega...naye saal ki nayi shuruat!


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## sudhir007



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## Raje amar

bad news.....
this is what happens when you streatch the deal toooooooooooooooo long.


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## Black Widow

Raje amar said:


> bad news.....
> this is what happens when you streatch the deal toooooooooooooooo long.




Pissed off of it... I think govt should scrap the deal and go for
1. Make 50 more Su30MKI at Pune and order 50 from Russia
2. Order 50 more MiG29SMT from Russia
3. Open 3 Assembly line for LCA , make 50+ LCA per year
4. Acquire more number of SAMs and Ballistic missiles.

I think we can do all this in same price what we are paying for MMRCA.


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## angeldemon_007

I think MOD should take a re-look to Gripen NG and F-18


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## rockstarIN

The competitors too are eager to get the orders. we both should share the forex losses though.


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## sudhir007

Google Translate

Announcement of the winner of Indian MMRCA tender to supply 126 medium multi-role fighters regularly postponed, if earlier planned to bring up the contest until the end of 2011, this is now not expected until January 2012. According to the newspaper "Vedomosti" quoted a source close to the "Rosoboronexport", the Ministry of Defence of India may cancel the tender, as none of the planes reached the final does not fit into the budget, scheduled for the purchase of fighter aircraft.

Ministry of Defence of India conducts a tender MMRCA in August 2007. Initially, it involved six companies: RAC "MiG", Eurofighter, Dassault, Saab, Boeing and Lockheed Martin. They suggested that the Indian military MiG-35, Typhoon, Rafale, JAS 39 Gripen IN, F/A-18 Super Hornet and F-16IN Super Viper, respectively. Finalists tender military announced in late April of 2011 - they were a European consortium Eurofighter and the French company Dassault. Currently, the most likely candidate to win is Typhoon.

The winner of the tender will receive a contract valued at $ 11 billion. Earlier, the Indian military said the Typhoon and Rafale best to meet all technical requirements of the Air Force, so the winner will be determined based on the cost of aircraft and the cost of their maintenance throughout life. Prices Rafale depending on the version equipped with range from 85 to 124 million dollars. In turn, Typhoon costs about $ 120 million apiece.

Under the deal, with the winner of the tender, the Indian Air Force 18 fighters will have to get a fully assembled, while others will be produced under license in the country. In addition, the agreement may be extended an option to buy 64 more fighter aircraft. If the tender is canceled, the MiG-35 again has a chance to buy the Indian Air Force.


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## rockstarIN

Damn whats happening? if this is the scene, then we will not announce the winner even by March 2012. 

Is it the time to concentrate on LCA?

Worst is to go back again to US jets only coz of the costs.


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## ziaulislam

i still dont understand the logic of MRCA in the prsense of options like LCA,su 30and mig 29 variants
LCA can cover the light catergery and pakistani boarder wile su 30 the heavy end and mig 29 advance variants can easily cover the intermediate level catergery..
not only india would have safed money but time as well. and the headache of so many platforms


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## rockstarIN

ziaulislam said:


> i still dont understand the logic of MRCA in the prsense of options like LCA,su 30and mig 29 variants
> LCA can cover the light catergery and pakistani boarder wile su 30 the heavy end and mig 29 advance variants can easily cover the intermediate level catergery..
> not only india would have safed money but time as well. and the headache of so many platforms



The answer is China, PLAF. btw. we have M2ks too.


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## PoKeMon

ziaulislam said:


> i still dont understand the logic of MRCA in the prsense of options like LCA,su 30and mig 29 variants
> LCA can cover the light catergery and pakistani boarder wile su 30 the heavy end and mig 29 advance variants can easily cover the intermediate level catergery..
> not only india would have safed money but time as well. and the headache of so many platforms



Mainly because

1. To enhance ground attack capabilities. Su 30 MKI is more of an air superiority fighter.
2. To get access to european technology.
3. Distribution of arms/logistics dependencies of IAF.

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## sancho

Black Widow said:


> Pissed off of it... I think govt should scrap the deal and go for
> 1. Make 50 more Su30MKI at Pune and order 50 from Russia
> 2. Order 50 more MiG29SMT from Russia
> 3. Open 3 Assembly line for LCA , make 50+ LCA per year
> 4. Acquire more number of SAMs and Ballistic missiles.
> 
> I think we can do all this in same price what we are paying for MMRCA.



Not good ideas mate! 150 more Russian fighters, next to the 42 MKIs and 250 FGFAs that are planned anyway? IAF would be freaking costly to operate, totally dependent on Russia and most importantly, on their weapons and techs only.
This all is completely contrary to what IAF really wants!

Point 3, the production of LCA is not an issue so far, because there is no real production line available, since we only produce prototypes so far. It's the R&D side of the project that messed it all up, so don't wast time in thinking about the numbers of LCAs produced in a year, think about how we get the fighter ready for production at all?

4. So you want to defend yourself only with SAMs and the threat that we can nuke other countries? The main aim of our forces is to be capable enough to defend the country with conventional arms, because the use of nukes will make us all to loosers, when all opponents have nukes and are living next to eachother.
To be conventionally strong, you need a strong air force, not only to fight the enemy in your airspace, but to attack him even in his territory. What's the better idea? To fight 30 enemy fighters from 1 air base one after the other in your airspace, or to destroy the air base, before all those fighters can take off?
The same applies to ground forces. We can't wait till 100s of tanks and 1000s of troops crossed the border, we have to keep the as far away as possible. IAF knows that this is not possible with MKI or Russian fighters alone and that's why the MRCA competition has always the main focus on western fighters.
IAF had air superiority with the Russian fighters and their BVR capabilities in Kargil, but still, they didn't decided the war isn't it? 
We need the MMRCAs for operational reasons, not to mention the benefit Indian industry will get through offsets and the only way to get these advantages is to get to a final decision!

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## sancho

sudhir007 said:


> Google Translate
> 
> Announcement of the winner of Indian MMRCA tender to supply 126 medium multi-role fighters regularly postponed, if earlier planned to bring up the contest until the end of 2011, this is now not expected until January 2012. According to *the newspaper "Vedomosti"* quoted a source *close to the "Rosoboronexport"*, the Ministry of Defence of India may cancel the tender, as none of the planes reached the final does not fit into the budget, scheduled for the purchase of fighter aircraft.
> 
> Ministry of Defence of India conducts a tender MMRCA in August 2007. Initially, it involved six companies: RAC "MiG", Eurofighter, Dassault, Saab, Boeing and Lockheed Martin. They suggested that the Indian military MiG-35, Typhoon, Rafale, JAS 39 Gripen IN, F/A-18 Super Hornet and F-16IN Super Viper, respectively. Finalists tender military announced in late April of 2011 - they were a European consortium Eurofighter and the French company Dassault. Currently, the most likely candidate to win is Typhoon.
> 
> The winner of the tender will receive a contract valued at $ 11 billion. Earlier, the Indian military said the Typhoon and Rafale best to meet all technical requirements of the Air Force, so the winner will be determined based on the cost of aircraft and the cost of their maintenance throughout life. Prices Rafale depending on the version equipped with range from 85 to 124 million dollars. In turn, Typhoon costs about $ 120 million apiece.
> 
> Under the deal, with the winner of the tender, the Indian Air Force 18 fighters will have to get a fully assembled, while others will be produced under license in the country. In addition, the agreement may be extended an option to buy 64 more fighter aircraft. *If the tender is canceled, the MiG-35 again has a chance to buy the Indian Air Force.*



You just need to read these 3 points to understand how reliable this news is.

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## Jason bourne

MIG - 35 INDIAN AIRFORCE KO BUY KARLENGA WAH KYANEWS HE :p

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## Abingdonboy

Mig-35 has NO chance if MMRCA is cancelled. F-18E/F or F-35B are much more likely in that unlikely scenario.


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## janon

If cost is getting prohibitive, India should go the super hornet way. Although not aerodynamically as good as the EF or Rafale, they still had some of the best in avionics and weapons to offer. This will take care of other IAF objectives like ending dependance on Russian fighters. That in my opinion is very, very important. Except the Jags and the mirage (which wont remain a frontline aircraft in future), everything else we have are Russian, and will be for the next 30 years. That could mean disaster in case of a domestic upheaval in Russia, or Russia being unable to support us for whatever reason. India will have to ground its entire fleet of aircrafts in such a scenario.

Also, this is India's only opportunity to get its hands on western tech.


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## rockstarIN

MKI & FGFAs are/will be producing here in India. So no probs. with spares in the russian systems in the future.

No F18 for us, we do not need stuff with strings attached


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## no_koadsheding_plz

sancho said:


> You just need to read these 3 points to understand how reliable this news is.



Vedomosti - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## deepakclaw

recently my eager turned to laughter when i hear about mmrca


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## sancho

deepakclaw said:


> recently my eager turned to laughter when i hear about mmrca



Let's hope the laughter will turn to joy again, when we took a final decision and it will be a really "happy new year" for India!


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## no_koadsheding_plz

o brothers year 2012 has begun..when will this be announced,?


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## Solar Flare

no_koadsheding_plz said:


> o brothers year 2012 has begun..when will this be announced,?



I know you are more excited than us but just wait for few more days buddy. You won't be disappointed.


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## sancho

no_koadsheding_plz said:


> o brothers year 2012 has begun..when will this be announced,?



As soon as possible, but we have no other option than wait. It's not an easy task to evaluate such detailed offers and negotiate to get the best out of the deal.


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## lamlap

India running out of money, no more MRCA

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## Hulk

lamlap said:


> India running out of money, no more MRCA


 
Yeah, you are right. You are the best analyst ever.


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## turkish

lamlap said:


> India running out of money, no more MRCA



Man you are the one !!! The intelligent one !! Where were you till now?????


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## joekrish

lamlap said:


> India running out of money, no more MRCA




Can you please clone some Eurofighter and Dassault for us.

---------- Post added at 01:55 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:54 AM ----------




lamlap said:


> India running out of money, no more MRCA




Can you please clone some Eurofighter and Dassault for us.


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## sancho

> *The Rafale: analysis of the tender in India*
> 
> December 30, 2011
> 
> If France can no longer afford its power, India is! *Never geostrategic equation, industrial and technological were also in favor of export of the Rafale in the case of the Indian market.*
> The displacement of the center of gravity of the world to Asia led India, one of the two major economies of the continent to "emerge" as the strategic plan. Its regional environment is fragile, as marked by the conflict with Pakistan and the rivalry with China. Faced with the Middle Kingdom, more powerful economically, politically and militarily, India is working to stay in the competition for influence in Asia and to counter the Sino-Pakistan axis. But India was also the twenty-first century new ambitions: it intends to take advantage of opportunities created by the global crisis to increase its status in the international arena. The 'instinctive preference "of India for a multipolar world led him to manage its relationship with a diverse set of powers with greater flexibility. Even the spectacular rapprochement with the United States, which allowed him to enjoy a special status in the nuclear-alliance does not mean that New Delhi has no intention of being manipulated by Washington in a policy of containment of China and refused some proposals for U.S. military cooperation. Israel, but also Russia, with which India has partnered for the Raptor fighter plane of the fifth generation are major suppliers of armaments. Europe is seen as a useful partner in the business plan.
> The new geostrategic environment has led India to revise its defense policy and to move from a non-interventionist tradition, beyond its direct sphere of influence, to a more offensive doctrine, which should not be limited by capability issues. For evidence, a defense budget growing steadily, especially since the attacks in Bombay in 2008, and a liberalization of the defense industry for the sake of quality and performance. Within a decade of arms imports to the tune of $ 50M will place the country to the rank of world's largest importer.
> 
> The renewal of military aircraft of Indian Air
> It is in this context that India launched in 2007 the vast tender M-MRCA (MediumMultiRoleCombatAircraft) to renew an aging fleet largely composed of fighters of Soviet-designed Su-30, MIG -29 and Mi-35.Ce huge contract covers the purchase of 126 fighter planes for a total of $ 12 million, of which 108 will be made at the local level in partnership with Indian companies. Indeed, the essential condition of the tender is technology transfer, compensation amounting to 50% of the value of the contract to allow India to develop its own military and aerospace industry to build a modern air force and independent. The Americans proposed the F-16 Lockheed Martin and Boeing F/A-18E/F, the European EADS Eurofighter Typhoon (developed by the United Kingdom, Germany, Italy and Spain), France, Sweden and the Rafale, the Gripen. Finally, the Russians have tried their luck with the new MiG-29K and MiG-35.En New Delhi announced in April that only the Rafale and the Eurofighter are competing. Note the specificity of the tender Indian: for reasons of domestic politics, the fight against corruption, it is sequenced in two phases clearly separated, the first purely technical and the second on aggregate supply. This decoupling also criticized by some Indian experts, that only the choice of the IAF has prevailed. To demonstrate the involvement of non-policy at this stage, the United States were informed of their misfortune by their military attaché in New Delhi, itself informed by the Indian military.
> 
> *Fighter omnirole 4th generation, its versatility is its major asset and is fully operational needs of the Indian Air Force, given the vastness of the Indian airspace. Able to fill all the roles of fighter aircraft in one mission, it can ensure the safety of the national airspace and conduct missions outside.* A trump card that could prove decisive when the withdrawal of Western forces from Afghanistan in Pakistan will recover the strategic depth of his dreams in front of his rival. *On the other hand, planned to operate from its conception as aboard aircraft carriers, it will allow India to take a qualitative leap forward in securing its maritime areas, which have become vital to the supply of raw materials to a economy bordering on double-digit growth.* Unique technological success, it can carry a full range of advanced weapons, to the strategic nuclear strike with F3.Enfin standard, its capabilities are unmatched changing to meet the challenge of reducing the technology gap with potential adversaries .
> *Moreover, the Rafale has almost always been ranked first on the technical and operational in the previous tender, but it was not yet "battle proven", a label earned by its commitments in Afghanistan and Libya, Operation also more publicized.* On the other hand, cooperation with Dassault is old: with the purchase of 80 Mirage 2000 in the 80's, India was the first export customer of M 2000 and the modernization of the fleet in the industry comes from be finalized between the two governments. *The life of an aircraft like the Rafale is 40 years, New Delhi will have the same security upgrades for the Mirage, which is less guaranteed with the Eurofighter, the final business plan EADS presaging a withdrawal medium-term combat aircraft.*
> 
> India at the Crossroads
> *Finally, bilateral relations between France and India are excellent: the strategic partnership in 1998 was reiterated during the visit of Alain Juppé in October. France has consistently supported India's aspirations to a seat on the UN Security and better participation in international forums G8, G20 ...*
> Given these strengths, the denigration of the Rafale, which is crucial when playing the global trade negotiations is truly amazing. Building on its past failures to export it as sterile supplies are unjustified criticism. The image of a France of a Gaullist pride anachronistic producing technology so sophisticated that nobody wants, and preferably within a national framework, to be sure it's even more expensive, is totally wrong. France has not built Rafale in a European framework for its operational requirements, particularly for an aircraft carrier, was different: it was a war in advance. The Eurofighter was a money pit and it has been referred to by the Court of Auditors UK an increase of 75% of its unit cost. He is currently more expensive than the Rafale! For countries like Korea and Singapore, France could not fight against the military protection that guaranteed them the power of the United States. The Anglo-Saxon influence has been pregnant for Saudi Arabia which has replaced by the Eurofighter Tornado.
> Hope that the Indians understand themselves important political benefit at the image of the power of their country that would symbolize the Rafale.



Le Rafale : analyse de l


A good analysis, which sums up the reasons why I prefer the Rafale for Indian forces too! 
It is technically more capable than the EF, but at the same time more cost-effective too. Can be used by IAF and IN, we have a long term and reliable experience with the French and Dassault in particular and even from the industrial and political point of view, their offer isn't bad at all.
They simply offer the best package of advantages to India and that's what MMRCA is about, getting as much advantages as possible in return for our money!


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## Bang Galore

sancho said:


> Le Rafale : analyse de l
> 
> 
> A good analysis, which sums up the reasons why I prefer the Rafale for Indian forces too!
> It is technically more capable than the EF, but at the same time more cost-effective too. Can be used by IAF and IN, we have a long term and reliable experience with the French and Dassault in particular and even from the industrial and political point of view, their offer isn't bad at all.
> They simply offer the best package of advantages to India and that's what MMRCA is about, getting as much advantages as possible in return for our money!



I disagree, nothing particularly new in that article. As far as it being technically more capable than the EF, the time for that stage in the MMRCA selection has long passed, what is now being decided is which of the two is cost effective? I have a different take on this, one of the UK's minister was quoted as saying that giving aid to India was important because it may then buy the EF. Interesting thought actually when you consider it more clearly. The UK & maybe Germany may end up funding the EF's purchase cost with large donations from the aid budget (if you assume that it offsets the massive cost of the MMRCA with essential money for development projects). Over any length of time it will actually indirectly reduce the fiscal burden of the procurement, really funny when you see it that way. The MMRCA being funded by the very countries that are trying so desperately to sell it to us. At the very least, this is a factor that cannot be ignored. Rafale is at a big disadvantage when this variable is added to the matrix.


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## sancho

Bang Galore said:


> I disagree, nothing particularly new in that article. As far as it being technically more capable than the EF, the time for that stage in the MMRCA selection has long passed



Which doesn't change the fact that the Rafale offered in MMRCA is more capable that the EF offered in MMRCA. Only with additional upgrades that we have to pay extra, it will be comparable and IAF included these additional upgrades in their evaluation, otherwise EF couldn't be shortlisted.




Bang Galore said:


> what is now being decided is which of the two is cost effective? I have a different take on this, one of the UK's minister was quoted as saying that giving aid to India was important because it may then buy the EF.



Which is already beeing included in the bid the EF consortium provided to India and which is still quoted to be at least 5% more expensive than the Rafale bid. Add the upgrade costs and the higher operational costs and you know which fighter is more cost-effective, however, that is not the important point as we know:



> Nonetheless, the government is not bound to select the L-1 as the winner, even if it is much lower, as there is an over-riding clause in the tender. If in the national strategic calculus, the L-2 can be of strategic significance for India, then the CCS can go in for that aircraft.



http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/4347-mrca-news-discussions-430.html#post2429150


I said from the begining that not the unit cost will decide who wins, but the cost of the whole package of the fighter, the licence production, the ToT and other benefits that comes with the deal. If the EF can offer a very good industrial package, at reduced costs specially for India (because we basically by the T3B fighters the EF partners originally ordered), it has a chance to win. Purely by technical or cost requirements of the fighter, that's not possible.


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## IndiaIsrael

no_koadsheding_plz said:


> o brothers year 2012 has begun..when will this be announced,?


 
Just wait for 2 more weeks,


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## mastaan

Folks, as a part of my job, we closed a large Industrial equipment contract in December 2011. It was worth couple of hundred million dollars. The paperwork for that contract was 3 boxes which filled up the trunk of a family station wagon, addendums were the same amount of extra paperwork and took us (a complete organization) 3-4 months of document preparation, screening by customer and pre-negotiations work... 

Cut to MMRCA, this is a deal worth $15-20Billion, involves offset contracts, gazillions of moving parts - both in the machines and the contracts, bazillions of spare part contracts, training contracts, detailed metrics to standardize the quotes to a common ground etc etc etc... Given that it has just been a quarter since the bids have opened up... it will take time... 

Point is... when MOD said that they will finalize the contract in a few weeks, there is no way that they ór anyone else could have been sure of the 'exact' period it will take, it was the best 'guess' that they could have given... IMHO, delay of a few weeks or months is not a big deal... Let's not loose sleep over it (talking to myself here)

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## sathya

it will be disappointing to see the results postponed again,
Be prepared for that too...

i am just hoping for a pongal surprise..


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## rockstarIN

I hope to see a flypast by the winners on Jan 26th


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## luckyyy

i think MMRCA deal is off....

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## jha

luckyyy said:


> i think MMRCA deal is off....



Off the hook or, OFF ..?


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## Hello_10

mastaan said:


> Folks, as a part of my job, we closed a large Industrial equipment contract in December 2011. It was worth couple of hundred million dollars. The paperwork for that contract was 3 boxes which filled up the trunk of a family station wagon, addendums were the same amount of extra paperwork and took us (a complete organization) 3-4 months of document preparation, screening by customer and pre-negotiations work...
> *
> Cut to MMRCA, this is a deal worth $15-20Billion, involves offset contracts, gazillions of moving parts - both in the machines and the contracts, bazillions of spare part contracts, training contracts, detailed metrics to standardize the quotes to a common ground etc etc etc... Given that it has just been a quarter since the bids have opened up... it will take time... *
> *
> Point is... when MOD said that they will finalize the contract in a few weeks, there is no way that they ór anyone else could have been sure of the 'exact' period it will take, it was the best 'guess' that they could have given... IMHO, delay of a few weeks or months is not a big deal... Let's not loose sleep over it (talking to myself here*)



MRCA wont to be considered if it cant be kept with limit of $12.6bn for 126 aircrafts including building infrastructure, with fully loaded with missiles also. If IAF is getting 42 upgraded SU30MKIs for $4.1bn, with stealth features/ powerful AESA radar with loaded with Brahmos missiles also, then IAF wont pay more than $100mil for a similar type aircrafts like Rafale or EFT. EFT cant keep itself for less than $100mil, (also if Rafale is on production line then EFT need 3-4 years more to develop AESA radar also), while if these upgraded SU30MKIs are better on air superiority side then Rafale is better on multi role side. Even 5th gen stealth PAK FA/ FGFA would also cost around $100mil and would come in production from 2018, then why IAF would pay more than $100mil for 4th gen Rafale or EFT which would also come from 2015/16 onwards?

But, 2 LCA>> 1 EFT or Rafale. And multi role aircrafts LCAs, mk2 with proposed AESA radar, would cost no more than $40mil while IAF is already going to pay around $3.9bn to upgrade 51 Mirage2000H to 2000-5mk2 standard with loading them with missiles also. And with LCAs, these upgraded Mirage2000-5 mk2 may do any type of very specialized Multi role operations, if required.

IAF has full techs of SU30MKIs and LCAs from raw to product and if they buy 63 new upgraded MKIs, similar to their recent order of 42 for $4.1bn, then it would cost no more than $6.3bn with hardly $6.0bn for 150 upgraded LCAs more, + 300mil for developing AESA radar also if required, well within $12.6bn limit. And 63MKIs+150LCAs = 213 >> 126 Rafale? 

While Rafale is still a Paper Tiger and hasnt won even a single order till now. Their only hope is this MRCA deal otherwise time of 5th gen aircrafts will start after just 5-6 years from now and then no one would pay $100mil for a 4th gen aircraft. IAC-1 will have Mig29K and IAC-3, which will come in operation from 2025-26, will have naval version of PAK FA. But IN may consider Rafale for their IAC-2 which would come in operation from 2020 onwards but they wont pay more than $100mil for Rafale, fully loaded with missiles. Means more order for Rafale if they get MRCA and with more publicity for this aircraft otherwise no one else from rest of the world will buy Rafale also? This MRCA will decide fate of Rafale also, I think, but IAF mustnt pay more than $12.6bn for 126 Rafale with loaded with missiles also


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## lamlap

luckyyy said:


> i think MMRCA deal is off....



yes, sad news


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## sancho

Hello_10 said:


> MRCA wont to be considered if it cant be kept with limit of $12.6bn for 126 aircrafts including building infrastructure, with fully loaded with missiles also. If IAF is getting 42 upgraded SU30MKIs for $4.1bn, with stealth features/ powerful AESA radar with loaded with Brahmos missiles also, then IAF wont pay more than $100mil for a similar type aircrafts like Rafale or EFT.




First of all, weapon deals are always additional deals and not included in the procurment or upgrades of fighters.

Secondly, MoD knew the cost of the fighters *before* they shortlisted the most expensive fighters in the competitions, which logically tells us, that no matter what they have no problem with the unit cost of the EF or Rafale.

Thirdly, former IAF Chief Naik stated that the lifecycle cost is more important than the unit cost, which is one reason why neither the Mig had a chance, nor more heavy class Flankers will be procured instead of MMRCAs.




Hello_10 said:


> While Rafale is still a Paper Tiger


You are for Mig 35, upgraded MKI, LCA MK1 and 2, which all doesn't exist today and still call Rafale a paper Tiger? 

Once again, since there are still people who missed that some of the most important requirements of MMRCA are, ToT and offsets, but neither upgraded MKI, nor LCA will get India this. Also IAF wants alternative weapons to the Russian/Indian weapon package that the LCA, Mig 29 SMT/K and MKIs mainly will use.

MKIs and in future FGFAs will remain Indias prime fighters, but in addition to them and till LCA will be ready for opertational service, western fighters are needed and MoD/GoI combined the procurement with getting additional advantages for India. That's why MMRCA is important and why we are ready to pay higher prizes if we get enough in return too!


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## luckyyy

sancho said:


> MoD knew the cost of the fighters *before* they shortlisted the most expensive fighters in the competitions,


 
you known to crack a joke every now and then...


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## sancho

> *MMRCA by third week of Jan*
> 
> By SP's Special Correspondent
> 
> MMRCA January 02, 2012: The mother of all Indian deals, the medium multirole combat aircraft (MMRCA) competition is likely to see a winner announced in the third week of January 2012. After commercial bids were opened on November 4, the Air Force and MoD created a specialised three-layered team to squeeze a winner out of the final round of comparisons between Dassault's Rafale and the Eurofighter Typhoon. There was a spot of doubt last week over the notion of extension of commercial bids, since their validity expired on December 31. *However, the MoD clarified that once the bids were opened, there was no provision for extension, and therefore there was no cause for concern.*
> 
> An IAF source suggested that the vendors were unlikely to flag this as an issue at such a crucial time since neither would be wanting to "rock the boat" too much. Also, the fact that both contenders are European (and therefore are subject to near identical currency fluctuations), the playing field is level. Currently, the committee poring over the hundreds of sheets in the commercial bids are converting currencies and formulating a table where parameters are comparable.
> 
> The financial parameters required the MoD and IAF have been submitted in eight separate categories, M1 to M8. These include unit flyaway cost (the first 18 aircraft will be bought straight from the manufacturer), lifecycle cost, operational cost, lifecycle cost of spares, aggregates and fuel usage, cost of overhaul, cost of mid-life upgrade, cost of transfer of technology and *M8, the final tally of all costs involved -- the final figure that will be compared to declare a winner.*



MMRCA by third week of Jan - SP's Aviation

So no canceling of the competition and a final decision might be already done, also another confirmation that the L1 means cheapest total cost, not cheapest unit cost!

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## luckyyy

sancho said:


> [So no canceling of the competition and a final decision might be already done, also another confirmation that the L1 means cheapest total cost, not cheapest unit cost!



you still forget to consider the banchmark price..

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## sancho

luckyyy said:


> you still forget to consider the banchmark price..



Yes and MoD forgot about it too right? Again, they new the how expensive the fighters are before they shortlisted them, they only didn't knew how far the vendors compromised on it in the bids. If MoD had any doubt about them not fitting into the budget they / the government has in mind, they could have shortlisted a 3rd cheaper fighter too, which had given them all options. That's one reason I did expected the F18SH to be shortlisted too, but the fact is that they didn't and choose only Rafale and EF. That means, they expect at least one of them to fulfill their budget requirements and since the comercial bids seems not to be extended anymore, everything hints on a decision soon.


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## mastaan

luckyyy said:


> you still forget to consider the banchmark price..



There is nothing called as Benchmark Price in such a huge ticket item purchases... It is always price indexed to a basis and competition is relative to those levels... There are quoted prices, indexation formulae and their application conditions... Trust me, it is not so simple and easy for long lead time, multiple year supply contracts as "here, 126 fighers for $12billion and it is fixed and next 5 years"... You can not have a negotiation or deal like that for this kind of a deal

Let me give you a contextual example... If a defence supplier quotes price of $1 for a bullet to Indian Army. Now he has his raw material prices assumed for a specifc day... eg. Price is specific to X $ per ton of Bronze, Y $ per ton value of dynamite and euro to $ conversion rate of 1.43 (if the defence supplier is buying some material from euro countries)... So, now, if the contract is signed and one or two or all three rates move up or down, how can the vendor still keep supplying at the same price??? He will be contractually obligated to raise the price and you will be bound to give him that extra money. He possibly can not buy the entire raw material on the day he quoted and there can be significant difference between prices from the day of quote to day to contract signing (so, one needs to address that) and in addition, there are some components that you can not possibly store for 4-6 years (too valatile, too scarce, too complicated or yet to be cleared with design approved stamp)... This is known as 'price escalation clause' and every basic capital equipments order contains such things... And given that for most of the jets the hardware is made from different types of raw materials, you should also know that the cheapest figher might just now be the most expensive, for all you know... So, when anyone negotiates such a contract over such an elongated period of time, prices are always 'assumed' to have a possible inflatory effect and at every stage, basis calculations to highlight index changes are done by both the supplier and purchaser... this is "contracting 101" and and the contracting division of the MoD (which is one of the biggest purchasers in the world) would not even do that cardinal sin in their sleep or even if they wanted to... even the budget approvals will have these escalation clause and recheck mechanisms...

lol... So, IMHO, it will be just too naive to assume that MoD just 'forgot' about the price and now they will cancel the contract because the price is too expensive... So, let's not worry unnecessarily... The order is on its way!


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## luckyyy

sancho said:


> Yes and MoD forgot about it too right? Again, they new the how expensive the fighters are before they shortlisted them, they only didn't knew how far the vendors compromised on it in the bids. If MoD had any doubt about them not fitting into the budget they / the government has in mind, they could have shortlisted a 3rd cheaper fighter too, which had given them all options. That's one reason I did expected the F18SH to be shortlisted too, but the fact is that they didn't and choose only Rafale and EF. That means, they expect at least one of them to fulfill their budget requirements and since the comercial bids seems not to be extended anymore, everything hints on a decision soon.


 
nobody had forgotten the banchmark price , but it was techinal evaluation commite which selected the two finalist and not the MoD or the finance ministry...


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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> Yes and MoD forgot about it too right? Again, they new the how expensive the fighters are before they shortlisted them, they only didn't knew how far the vendors compromised on it in the bids. If MoD had any doubt about them not fitting into the budget they / the government has in mind, they could have shortlisted a 3rd cheaper fighter too, which had given them all options. That's one reason I did expected the F18SH to be shortlisted too, but the fact is that they didn't and choose only Rafale and EF. That means, they expect at least one of them to fulfill their budget requirements and since the comercial bids seems not to be extended anymore, everything hints on a decision soon.



May be MoD knowingly included the best & costliest fighters and makes sure that both of them dont come within Benchmark price so that F-35 comes in back..


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## luckyyy

off late but i am sure the IAF/MoD had realize that there is no use to put money into a new platform at this stage...
1) both EF and rafale are more expensive then the MKI ..
2) MKI had a proven record and most leathal and trusted in IAF..
3)* HAL has spend billions on biulding the infrastructure to build MKI in india ,* why would there be a need to spand more money again for MMRCA..
4)with LCA , FGFA amd MCA on card , why would HAL be spanding money on MMRCA , there can't be unlimited funds available with them..
5) to my understanding MoD will buy more MKIs to fill the gap and IAF will just focus more no FGFA ....
 
anyway , the no-news on MMRCA as the bid expired on 31dec clearly means that MMRCA is cancalled...

people will still argue about the expirey of bids suggesting that bids are valid even after 31dec coz they are opened...but they need to realize the *company law which stats that " commercial bids are only vaild till the expiry date and if the contrect is not signed till that date , the bids gets void "*

so , as per law , coz the bidders are not asked to extend/renew the bidds , thay stand void as of now...


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## kingdurgaking

luckyyy said:


> you still forget to consider the banchmark price..



i guess both of them are within the range.. News coming out of MoD states that it is a new year gift for IAF


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## kingdurgaking

luckyyy said:


> off late but i am sure the IAF/MoD had realize that there is no use to put money into a new platform at this stage...
> 1) both EF and rafale are more expensive then the MKI ..
> 2) MKI had a proven record and most leathal and trusted in IAF..
> 3)* HAL has spend billions on biulding the infrastructure to build MKI in india ,* why would there be a need to spand more money again for MMRCA..
> 4)with LCA , FGFA amd MCA on card , why would HAL be spanding money on MMRCA , there can't be unlimited funds available with them..
> 5) to my understanding MoD will buy more MKIs to fill the gap and IAF will just focus more no FGFA ....
> 
> anyway , the no-news on MMRCA as the bid expired on 31dec clearly means that MMRCA is cancalled...
> 
> people will still argue about the expirey of bids suggesting that bids are valid even after 31dec coz they are opened...but they need to realize the *company law which stats that " commercial bids are only vaild till the expiry date and if the contrect is not signed till that date , the bids gets void "*
> 
> so , as per law , coz the bidders are not asked to extend/renew the bidds , thay stand void as of now...



simple answer would be... there is a need for medium sized fighters which the IAF has realized when the latest war broke out


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## praveen007

not related to Indian MMRCA but with Euro-fighter.
.
*Negotiations with Saudi for 48 Eurofighters hit road block : BAE | idrw.org*
++





.
.
In a stock market announcement, BAE said it had
yet to agree with the Kingdom how much extra it
will have to pay for changes to the contract for
the next 48 Eurofighter Typhoon aircraft.
This means that the extra payment &#8211; described
by BAE as a &#8220;significant cash payment&#8221; and
estimated by UBS analysts to be around £500m &#8211;
will be deferred until negotiations have been
concluded.
The warning from BAE spooked the stock market
and sent shares in the company down 3pc to
286.6p.
BAE said its guidance that underlying earnings per
share in 2011 would be similar to 2010 had
&#8220;included some dependency on the conclusion of
the Salam [the Typhoon acquisition]
negotiations&#8221;.
The changes to the £20bn contract, agreed in
2007, relate to the final assembly of the last 48 of
the 72 aircraft, the creation of a maintenance
facility in Saudi Arabia, and the upgrade of 24
aircraft already delivered
Despite the setback, BAE said the talks had made
&#8220;good progress&#8221;. It also said the financial impact
of the delay to its 2011 results will be largely
mitigated by a deal this week to sell three Ocean
Patrol Vessels to Brazil for £133m. The value of
the ships was written down by £100m in 2010
after Trinidad and Tobago cancelled an order.
However, the carrying value of the ships will now
be increased.
UBS analysts said BAE could also secure a new
£1.5bn deal with Saudi to sell Hawk aircraft and
that meeting 2011 forecasts despite the Typhoon
delay would show &#8220;the robustness of the
business&#8221;.

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## luckyyy

kingdurgaking said:


> i guess both of them are within the range.. News coming out of MoD states that it is a new year gift for IAF


 
that gift was the mirage missile deal and the basic trainer aircraft deal...

the muumm on MMRCA means cancellation..

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## SpArK

luckyyy said:


> that gift was the mirage missile deal and the basic trainer aircraft deal...
> 
> *the muumm on MMRCA means cancellation*..



They havent decided .. hence the silence.

They will read out load once the computations are over.


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## sudhir007

Google Translate

*The Rafale: analysis of the tender in India*

If France can no longer afford its power, India is! Never geostrategic equation, industrial and technological were also in favor of export of the Rafale in the case of the Indian market.
The displacement of the center of gravity of the world to Asia led India, one of the two major economies of the continent to "emerge" as the strategic plan. Its regional environment is fragile, as marked by the conflict with Pakistan and the rivalry with China. Faced with the Middle Kingdom, more powerful economically, politically and militarily, India is working to stay in the competition for influence in Asia and to counter the Sino-Pakistan axis. But India was also the twenty-first century new ambitions: it intends to take advantage of opportunities created by the global crisis to increase its status in the international arena. The 'instinctive preference "of India for a multipolar world led him to manage its relationship with a diverse set of powers with greater flexibility. Even the spectacular rapprochement with the United States, which allowed him to enjoy a special status in the nuclear-alliance does not mean that New Delhi has no intention of being manipulated by Washington in a policy of containment of China and refused some proposals for U.S. military cooperation. Israel, but also Russia, with which India has partnered for the Raptor fighter plane of the fifth generation are major suppliers of armaments. Europe is seen as a useful partner in the business plan.
The new geostrategic environment has led India to revise its defense policy and to move from a non-interventionist tradition, beyond its direct sphere of influence, to a more offensive doctrine, which should not be limited by capability issues. For evidence, a defense budget growing steadily, especially since the attacks in Bombay in 2008, and a liberalization of the defense industry for the sake of quality and performance. Within a decade of arms imports to the tune of $ 50M will place the country to the rank of world's largest importer.

*The renewal of military aircraft of Indian Air*
It is in this context that India launched in 2007 the vast tender M-MRCA (MediumMultiRoleCombatAircraft) to renew an aging fleet largely composed of fighters of Soviet-designed Su-30, MIG -29 and Mi-35.Ce huge contract covers the purchase of 126 fighter planes for a total of $ 12 million, of which 108 will be made at the local level in partnership with Indian companies. Indeed, the essential condition of the tender is technology transfer, compensation amounting to 50% of the value of the contract to allow India to develop its own military and aerospace industry to build a modern air force and independent. The Americans proposed the F-16 Lockheed Martin and Boeing F/A-18E/F, the European EADS Eurofighter Typhoon (developed by the United Kingdom, Germany, Italy and Spain), France, Sweden and the Rafale, the Gripen. Finally, the Russians have tried their luck with the new MiG-29K and MiG-35.En New Delhi announced in April that only the Rafale and the Eurofighter are competing. Note the specificity of the tender Indian: for reasons of domestic politics, the fight against corruption, it is sequenced in two phases clearly separated, the first purely technical and the second on aggregate supply. This decoupling also criticized by some Indian experts, that only the choice of the IAF has prevailed. To demonstrate the involvement of non-policy at this stage, the United States were informed of their misfortune by their military attaché in New Delhi, itself informed by the Indian military.

Fighter omnirole 4th generation, its versatility is its major asset and is fully operational needs of the Indian Air Force, given the vastness of the Indian airspace. Able to fill all the roles of fighter aircraft in one mission, it can ensure the safety of the national airspace and conduct missions outside. A trump card that could prove decisive when the withdrawal of Western forces from Afghanistan in Pakistan will recover the strategic depth of his dreams in front of his rival. On the other hand, planned to operate from its conception as aboard aircraft carriers, it will allow India to take a qualitative leap forward in securing its maritime areas, which have become vital to the supply of raw materials to a economy bordering on double-digit growth. Unique technological success, it can carry a full range of advanced weapons, to the strategic nuclear strike with F3.Enfin standard, its capabilities are unmatched changing to meet the challenge of reducing the technology gap with potential adversaries .
Moreover, the Rafale has almost always been ranked first on the technical and operational in the previous tender, but it was not yet "battle proven", a label earned by its commitments in Afghanistan and Libya, Operation also more publicized. On the other hand, cooperation with Dassault is old: with the purchase of 80 Mirage 2000 in the 80's, India was the first export customer of M 2000 and the modernization of the fleet in the industry comes from be finalized between the two governments. The life of an aircraft like the Rafale is 40 years, New Delhi will have the same security upgrades for the Mirage, which is less guaranteed with the Eurofighter, the final business plan EADS presaging a withdrawal medium-term combat aircraft.

*India at the Crossroads*
Finally, bilateral relations between France and India are excellent: the strategic partnership in 1998 was reiterated during the visit of Alain Juppé in October. France has consistently supported India's aspirations to a seat on the UN Security and better participation in international forums G8, G20 ...
Given these strengths, the denigration of the Rafale, which is crucial when playing the global trade negotiations is truly amazing. Building on its past failures to export it as sterile supplies are unjustified criticism. The image of a France of a Gaullist pride anachronistic producing technology so sophisticated that nobody wants, and preferably within a national framework, to be sure it's even more expensive, is totally wrong. France has not built Rafale in a European framework for its operational requirements, particularly for an aircraft carrier, was different: it was a war in advance. The Eurofighter was a money pit and it has been referred to by the Court of Auditors UK an increase of 75% of its unit cost. He is currently more expensive than the Rafale! For countries like Korea and Singapore, France could not fight against the military protection that guaranteed them the power of the United States. The Anglo-Saxon influence has been pregnant for Saudi Arabia which has replaced by the Eurofighter Tornado.
Hope that the Indians understand themselves important political benefit at the image of the power of their country that would symbolize the Rafale.


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## luckyyy

SpArK said:


> They havent decided .. hence the silence.
> 
> They will read out load once the computations are over.


 
the bids stand void after expiry..

the MoD would have asked the winner to extand their bid on 31dec as it required more 3-4 months to get the approvals of FM , PMO and then the HAL would do the final doccumentation..

i do not think FM has the money as of now , looking at the hafty borrowing they are doing and getting short on thier disinvestment targets...that's why my understanding is that MoD has terminated the MMRCA at this stage itself inplace of seeing the repeat of tanker deal at FM doorsteps ....


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## DANGER-ZONE

SpArK said:


> They havent decided .. hence the silence.
> 
> *They will read out load once the computations are over.*



BIG DEALS, BIG COMPUTATIONS.. LOL.





if you dont mind plz shed some light on SO long lasting computations.


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## Lord Of Gondor

danger-zone said:


> BIG DEALS, BIG COMPUTATIONS.. LOL.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> if you dont mind plz shed some light on SO long lasting computations.


It is a 15 billion dollar deal which is half of Pakistan's annual budget(2011-30.616855 billion U.S. dollars),so yes a *lot* of thinking is needed

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## Nirvana

luckyyy said:


> off late but i am sure the IAF/MoD had realize that there is no use to put money into a new platform at this stage...
> 1) both EF and rafale are more expensive then the MKI ..
> 2) MKI had a proven record and most leathal and trusted in IAF..
> 3)* HAL has spend billions on biulding the infrastructure to build MKI in india ,* why would there be a need to spand more money again for MMRCA..
> 4)with LCA , FGFA amd MCA on card , why would HAL be spanding money on MMRCA , there can't be unlimited funds available with them..
> 5) to my understanding MoD will buy more MKIs to fill the gap and IAF will just focus more no FGFA ....
> 
> anyway , the no-news on MMRCA as the bid expired on 31dec clearly means that MMRCA is cancalled...
> 
> people will still argue about the expirey of bids suggesting that bids are valid even after 31dec coz they are opened...but they need to realize the *company law which stats that " commercial bids are only vaild till the expiry date and if the contrect is not signed till that date , the bids gets void "*
> 
> so , as per law , coz the bidders are not asked to extend/renew the bidds , thay stand void as of now...





> There was a spot of doubt last week over the notion of extension of commercial bids, since their validity expired on December 31. *However, the MoD clarified that once the bids were opened, there was no provision for extension, and therefore there was no cause for concern.*



MMRCA by third week of Jan - SP's Aviation

Also L1 will cheapest total cost, not cheapest unit cost!


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## DANGER-ZONE

Lord Of Gondor said:


> It is a 15 billion dollar deal which is half of Pakistan's annual budget(2011-30.616855 billion U.S. dollars),so yes a *lot* of thinking is needed



its already too much *alot*, its not like you are going to moon.
what ever my budget is, *APNAY ULLO SEDHAY KARO*, it nothing has to do with MMRCA (_Cheap Indian Shot_). 
Countries can gather same amount within the time line that Indians had spent just for so called BIG WISE THINKING. i guess your GOVT has realised just in time that they have made a co$ty move, but its never too late yet.
and yes again to remind it was 12bn what was suggested for MMRCS not 15.


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## tvsram1992

danger-zone said:


> its already too much *alot*, its not like you are going to moon.
> what ever my budget is, *APNAY ULLO SEDHAY KARO*, it nothing has to do with MMRCA (_Cheap Indian Shot_).
> Countries can gather same amount within the time line that Indians had spent just for so called BIG WISE THINKING. i guess your GOVT has realised just in time that they have made a co$ty move, but its never too late yet.
> and yes again to remind it was *12bn what was suggested for MMRCS not 15*.


and u believe that?


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## DANGER-ZONE

tvsram1992 said:


> and u believe that?



NO, i didnt believe that but result shows it. Which is a *DELAY*, when ever they decided to announce, it comes out another Delay.


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## tvsram1992

danger-zone said:


> NO, i didnt believe that but result shows it. Which is a *DELAY*, when ever they decided to announce, it comes out another Delay.


Nested delays


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## The enlightened

Does signing this deal mean that MoF would have to shell out the entire amount at one go, or will they pay it over the years in installments.


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## tvsram1992

The enlightened said:


> Does signing this deal mean that MoF would have to shell out the entire amount at one go, or will they pay it over the years in installments.


depends whether the winner gives aircrafts and components at one go or not


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## Capt.Popeye

The enlightened said:


> Does signing this deal mean that MoF would have to shell out the entire amount at one go, or will they pay it over the years in installments.



Never in one go. Are all the aircraft being delivered in one lot? Payments are made at various times according to "goods and services" delivered and as laid down in contractual terms.


----------



## Hello_10

sancho said:


> First of all, weapon deals are always additional deals and not included in the procurment or upgrades of fighters.
> 
> Secondly, MoD knew the cost of the fighters *before* they shortlisted the most expensive fighters in the competitions, which logically tells us, that no matter what they have no problem with the unit cost of the EF or Rafale.
> 
> Thirdly, former IAF Chief Naik stated that the lifecycle cost is more important than the unit cost, which is one reason why neither the Mig had a chance, nor more heavy class Flankers will be procured instead of MMRCAs.
> 
> 
> 
> You are for Mig 35, upgraded MKI, LCA MK1 and 2, which all doesn't exist today and still call Rafale a paper Tiger?
> 
> Once again, since there are still people who missed that some of the most important requirements of MMRCA are, ToT and offsets, but neither upgraded MKI, nor LCA will get India this. Also IAF wants alternative weapons to the Russian/Indian weapon package that the LCA, Mig 29 SMT/K and MKIs mainly will use.
> 
> MKIs and in future FGFAs will remain Indias prime fighters, but in addition to them and till LCA will be ready for opertational service, western fighters are needed and MoD/GoI combined the procurement with getting additional advantages for India. That's why MMRCA is important and why we are ready to pay higher prizes if we get enough in return too!



your First point, did I say "weapon deals includes in the procurement or upgrades of fighters."?, I just said, IAF mustn&#8217;t pay more than $12.6bn for 126, either for EFT or even Rafale, including establishing infrastructure and loaded with missiles also, if they may buy a similar type of aircraft like upgraded SU30MKIs for $100mil as per the recent order of 42. (remember, you dont even have to spend even a single dollar for training on new aircrafts, with having raw to product techs, in case of SU30MKIs and also, as per the current order, production line of MKIs would continue till 2014-15 and you mustn&#8217;t close it until you open production line of PAK FA/ FGFA, by probably 2018. so you would order more, at least 63 more, to keep it running till 2017-18?)

Your Second point: we all knew MMRCA for $10bn only while I have increased it to $12.6bn. if you will pay just $100mil to $120mil for 5th gen stealth PAK FA/ FGFA from 2018 onwards, then how it is advisable to pay around $150mil each for a 4th gen like Rafale or EFT, as the deal may well rise to $18bn to $20bn for just 126 MMRCA aircrafts.

Third point, hey man how much will you exactly pay for maintenance cost, with adding difference of maintenance cost of Mig35 to Rafale, it would additional $10mil only while a Mig35/ Mig29VOT would cost hardly $50mil to $55mil with already having full infrastructure of Mig29s? and don&#8217;t forget, Mig35 ticked most of the boxes with EFT/ Rafale and they lost points in engine test only. The reason why IN ordered 29 more Mig29s for IAC-1 in 2010?

Your Forth point that, &#8220;Mig 35, upgraded MKI, LCA MK1 and 2, which all doesn't exist today and still call Rafale a paper Tiger?&#8221;

and here, Rafale, the super star of MMRCA, "Paper Tiger", is widely called the best aircraft among the MMRCA deal while it hasn&#8217;t wont even a single order till now and their only hope is this MMRCA deal which may give them publicity? otherwise, none would buy it, specially after 5-6 years from now as US&#8217;s friends will buy F35, Russian friends will buy PAK FA and that of China J20, and will it make sense to pay the same price for a 4th gen aircraft like Rafale in the time of 5th gen, after 2020?

And, you don&#8217;t know Mig35/ Mig29VOT? It&#8217;s the best version of Mig29 with AESA radar?

About &#8216;upgraded MKI&#8217; and LCA mk2 please read news below. As, I believe if IAF doesn&#8217;t want Mig35 then they would pay $12.6bn and buy 63 upgraded SU30MKIs ($6.3bn) + 150 LCA mk2 ($6.3), in place of paying more than $12.6bn for 126 Rafale or EFT. in place of having variety of aricrafts, you would have expertise on those few for which you have techs from raw to product, LCA & SU30MKI.



> While the Cabinet Committee on Security had taken a decision on buying 42 additional Sukhoi MKIs last year, negotiations have taken longer because India was also keen to include some of the features found in fifth generation fighter aircraft. Finally, the Russian side agreed to upgrade the SU-30 MKIs to its latest version known as &#8216;Super Sukhoi&#8217; with additional characteristics. *The new version is expected to include a new cockpit, an upgraded radar and certain stealth features to avoid radar detection. *Significantly, the* upgraded Sukhoi-30 MKIs will be able to carry a heavier weapons load, especially the airborne version of the Brahmos cruise missile*. *India is also looking to upgrade most of its SU-30 MKIs in the long run*.
> 
> PM visit: India to buy 42 &#8216;upgraded&#8217; Sukhois - Indian Express





> *Vendor selection by the IAF for supplying various sub-systems for the Tejas Mk2 too is gathering pace*. What has been confirmed thus far is that the two-way airborne operational data-links (ODL) will be supplied by HAL, which, among other systems, will be supplying a newly-designed mission computer (to cater to the increased processing requirements of the new fire-control system and IDAS), the RAM-1701AS radio altimeter, TACAN-2901AJ and DME-2950A tactical air navigation system combined with the ANS-1100A VOL/ILS marker, CIT-4000A Mk12 IFF transponder, COM-1150A UHF standby comms radio, UHF SATCOM transceiver, and the SDR-2010 SoftNET four-channel software-defined radio (working in VHF/UHF and L-band for voice and data communications), and the Bheem-EU brake control/engine/electrical monitoring system, all of which have been developed in-house by the Hyderabad-based Strategic Electronics R & D Centre of HAL. SAGEM Défense Sécurité will supply the Sigma-95N ring laser gyro-based inertial navigation system coupled to a GPS receiver (which is also on board the Su-30MKI and Tejas Mk1). The open-architecture integrated defensive aids suite (IDAS), which has been under joint development by the DRDO&#8217;s Bengaluru-based Defence Avionics Research Establishment (DARE) and Germany-based Cassidian since 2006, will include the AAR-60(V)2 MILDS F missile approach warning system, the EW management computer and Tarang Mk3 radar warning receiver (all to be built by Bharat Electronics Ltd), countermeasures dispenser built by Bharat Dynamics Ltd, and Elettronica of Italy&#8217;s Virgilius directional jammers (now being installed on the IAF&#8217;s MiG-29UPGs), which make use of active phased-array transmitters for jamming hostile low-band (E-G) and high-band (G-J) emitters. The redesigned digital flight-control computer will be built by BEL, while the HMD chosen is the Dash Mk5 from Elbit Systems. *For tactical strike missions, the &#8216;Tejas&#8217; Mk2 will be equipped with the Litening-3 LDP, supplied by RAFAEL Advanced Defence Systems of Israel. The actuated retractable aerial refuelling probe, mounted on the Tejas Mk2&#8217;s starboard cockpit section, will be supplied by UK-based Cobham Mission Equipment*.
> 
> TRISHUL: Tejas Mk2 MRCA&#8217;s R & D Effort Gathers Pace


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## Lord Of Gondor

danger-zone said:


> what ever my budget is, *APNAY ULLO SEDHAY KARO*, it nothing has to do with MMRCA (_Cheap Indian Shot_)


I was just suggesting at the scale of the deal!



danger-zone said:


> and yes again to remind it was 12bn what was suggested for MMRCS not 15.


 Rupee fall jacks up India's arms purchase bill
Unfortunately for us,the cost has escalated to 15 Billion USD.


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## sancho

luckyyy said:


> nobody had forgotten the banchmark price , but it was techinal evaluation commite which selected the two finalist and not the MoD or the finance ministry...



 The technical commettee is a part of the defence ministy! They evaluated the offsets and the results of IAF trials:



> *The Long Road to the MMRCA Shortlist*
> 
> ...StratPost recently reported moves by the ministry to amend the DPP to change the offset evaluation process by inviting only vendors shortlisted as technically qualified to submit offset proposals, and get Law Ministry approval to apply them with retrospective effect, so as to ease the amount of work involved in offset evaluation.
> 
> *The Technical Offsets Evaluation Committee of the Defense Ministry* has been struggling to formulate the requirements for the offset proposals that the vendors would have to match, with a series of delays, and still no terms set in black and white...
> ...The DPP says the Technical Offset Evaluation Committee will examine the technical offset offers and shortlist the vendors meeting the offset obligations. [The language in the 2008 and 2011 iterations reads: The (Technical Offset Evaluation) Committee will examine the compliance of technical offset offers by the vendors for meeting the offset obligations.]



The Long Road to the MMRCA Shortlist | StratPost




> *Eurofighter and Rafale finalists in Indian MMRCA competition*
> 
> ...fter global aerospace defence giants Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Saab and MiG have lost out on what was the biggest fighter aircraft deal since the early 1990s the European consortiums Eurofighter and French Dassaults Rafale are asked to extend the commercial bids for the 126 Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft that are due to expire on Thursday. The move could be interpreted as down selection from six competitors in the $11-Billion deal that is expected to be finalised this fiscal. Sources in the government told The Hindu that the Ministry dispatched the letter, *based on the Technical Evaluation Committees report. As per the terms of the deal, the competitors would have to show that they have the requisite tie-ups to fulfill the 50-per cent offset clause, which means that half of the value of the deal would have be sourced from Indian companies.
> 
> The Indian Air Force had handed over its report to the Ministry last year after rigorous and extensive flight evaluation trials of the six fighter planes bidding for the deal. The sources said the Ministrys team undertook an elaborate exercise to determine the offset obligations of the competitors, and once the task was complete, the next stage would be determined on the basis of the technical evaluation.*



Eurofighter and Rafale finalists in Indian MMRCA competition | Defence Aviation




> *India to wrap up MMRCA deal in four weeks: IAF Chief*
> 
> ...*The Defence Ministry had shortlisted France's Dassault Aviation SA's Rafale and EADS' Eurofighter Typhoon in April*
> 
> Commercial bids from the two shortlisted vendors were opened on November four, marking the culmination of almost decade-long hunt for India's new mainline fighter.
> 
> On the process of selection, the Air Chief said there are a lot of complicated calculations and figures that needed to be checked and re-checked.



India | MMRCA Deal | IAF | Defence Ministry | NAK Browne


Again, MoD shortlisted the fighters and MoD will take the final decision, they knew about the costs of the fighters before the shortlisting, what they didn't knew was how the final comercial bid of the vendors / manufacturer countries will look like. 
It's more than funny to claim that they shortlisted the fighters without having an idea if they fit into the budgets. They might even get the first idea about the prices, when the vendors responded to the RFIs and the first chance to reject them was after the response to the RFP and before the trials started. Any fighter that would have been too costly for MoD / GoI, would not have been accepted to enter the trials.


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## sancho

kingdurgaking said:


> May be MoD knowingly included the best & costliest fighters and makes sure that both of them dont come within Benchmark price so that F-35 comes in back..


First of all, the F35 was never in the competition.
Secondly, if MoD or IAF wanted the fighter, they would have directly asked for it to enter the competition and get at least first evaluation datas from LM and US government. Why should they wait so long and start all over again?



kingdurgaking said:


> simple answer would be... there is a need for medium sized fighters which the IAF has realized when the latest war broke out



That's one reasons, but luckyy don't care much about this simple fact or even official IAF / MoD statements, about diversification of the fleet, importance of lifecycle costs, overdependance on Russia, even about prime requirements of the competition like ToT and offsets. That's why he simply state the same things again and again, but that won't make them more credible right?


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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> First of all, the F35 was never in the competition.
> Secondly, if MoD or IAF wanted the fighter, they would have directly asked for it to enter the competition and get at least first evaluation datas from LM and US government. Why should they wait so long and start all over again?
> 
> 
> 
> That's one reasons, but luckyy don't care much about this simple fact or even official IAF / MoD statements, about diversification of the fleet, importance of lifecycle costs, overdependance on Russia, even about prime requirements of the competition like ToT and offsets. That's why he simply state the same things again and again, but that won't make them more credible right?



luckyy's facts are right on bench-marking.. but he believes that the deal will be put off but in reality which will not happen as it will jeopardize india's global image.. may be he is influenced by col ajai shukla ji's article... but in case it happens then it will be F-35 's chance...


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## sancho

Hello_10 said:


> your First point, did I say "weapon deals includes in the procurement or upgrades of fighters."?



Yes:



> $12.6bn for 126 aircrafts including building infrastructure, *with fully loaded with missiles also*.






Hello_10 said:


> remember, you dont even have to spend even a single dollar for training on new aircrafts...



Yes we do, if we want alternative weapons, capabilities, ToT, offsets, industrial and political advantages, *besides* what we get from Russia!
Kargil war, the quality issues of Migs and Russian weapons in the long term, the high operational costs of Russian fighters, the limited useful ToT and offsets that Mig 35 would have given India and no political advantages at all. More than enough clear reasons why we needed to go for new western fighters, besides the Mig 35 being not competitive enough compared to the others fighters.
It was even clear from the first MRCA competition, that this deal will go to a western vendor and that for good reasons!



Hello_10 said:


> Your Second point: we all knew MMRCA for $10bn only while I have increased it to $12.6bn. if you will pay just $100mil to $120mil for 5th gen stealth PAK FA/ FGFA from 2018 onwards, then how it is advisable to pay around $150mil each for a 4th gen like Rafale or EFT, as the deal may well rise to $18bn to $20bn for just 126 MMRCA aircrafts.



Because the benefits western MMRCAs brings, are not operational only, but in various fields as mentioned above. Besides, lets wait till Pak Fa is in production first to we calculate the costs, because we know that 5th gen fighters and techs are freaking costly and neither Russia, nor India are known to keep timelines and budgets. The price that is given so far is nothing more than speculation, especially for FGFA, since Russia is likely to buy a low cost version mainly based on Su 35 at the begining. 



Hello_10 said:


> Third point, hey man how much will you exactly pay for maintenance cost, with adding difference of maintenance cost of Mig35 to Rafale, it would additional $10mil only while a Mig35/ Mig29VOT would cost hardly $50mil to $55mil with already having full infrastructure of Mig29s? and don&#8217;t forget, Mig35 ticked most of the boxes with EFT/ Rafale and they lost points in engine test only.



Oh please, more claims? Even Mig 29Ks costs close to $50 millions and you really think that Mig 35, which must be re-designed first, which needs a newly developed AESA radar, which adds TVC and avionics comes just with a $5 million dollar increase? Add the costs for western upgrades that are necessary and and the costs goes up again. Not to forget that there is no other customer other than India, so all upgrade costs would have to be paid by us only and we know that this would be a great chance for Russian companies to increase the price afterwards isn't it?
Generally, there should be no doubt about that Russian fighters needs more maintainance than western fighters, especially the engines needs to be replaced more often, not to forget that TVC increases costs in this field too (one reaons why Russian airforce didn't used it on their Flankers so far).
Not sure what you mean with ticked most of the boxes, but from my point of view Mikoyan wasn't able to keep their promises and that's one reason why the fighter didn't impressed IAF at all. They promised more weaponstations and increased fuel, but there is no version available with bigger wings and additional hardpoints so far. They promised 200Km radar detection, but even at the last Aero India, Phazotron could only state 160Km, not to forget that the radar isn't ready yet (but to be fair, neither is the EF AESA) and has several issues. Lower RCS, more weapons, better avionics that would make it comparable to EF and especially Rafale? Doubtful, since the base design is simply too old to keep up and since the evaluation includes the projection of performance for the next 40 years, it wasn't surprising that the Mig couldn't keep up.




Hello_10 said:


> Your Forth point that, &#8220;Mig 35, upgraded MKI, LCA MK1 and 2, which all doesn't exist today and still call Rafale a paper Tiger?&#8221;
> 
> and here, Rafale, the super star of MMRCA, "Paper Tiger", is widely called the best aircraft among the MMRCA deal while it hasn&#8217;t wont even a single order till now and their only hope is this MMRCA deal which may give them publicity? otherwise, none would buy it, specially after 5-6 years from now as US&#8217;s friends will buy F35, Russian friends will buy PAK FA and that of China J20, and will it make sense to pay the same price for a 4th gen aircraft like Rafale in the time of 5th gen, after 2020?



LOL you replied by stating the same part once again? And that makes it true somehow? 

Let me ask you again, you claim Rafale (an operational fighter that will be available in the version offered in MMRCA by the end of this year) to be a paper tiger, compared to LCA MK2 (production start expected in 2015), upg MKI (upgrade not even fixed yet and first induction expected only around 2014 or later) and the Mig 35, that is available only in tech demo versions, based on older Mig 29 airframes?
LCA, upgraded MKIs let alone the Mig that not even Russia wants was exported yet, so how are they better than Rafale that not has been exported either? You are contradicting yourself my friend, from operational terms and the current stage of development, the Rafale is clearly ahead of these fighters and at the end only upg MKI will be operationa and more capable in certain fields than the Rafale F3+.

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## sancho

kingdurgaking said:


> luckyy's facts are right on bench-marking.. but he believes that the deal will be put off but in reality which will not happen as it will jeopardize india's global image.. may be he is influenced by col ajai shukla ji's article... but in case it happens then it will be F-35 's chance...



Not at all, his "facts" are only facts when they suit Russian fighters, which he prefers, so he is more the opposite side of Ajai Shukla.


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## sancho

praveen007 said:


> not related to Indian MMRCA but with Euro-fighter.
> .
> *Negotiations with Saudi for 48 Eurofighters hit road block : BAE | idrw.org*



WRT EF customers...

...after the reports that RAF wants to sell all their T1s to foreign countries, Germany now offers some of it's remaining T1s (some of them sold to Austria) to Bulgaria now. At the same time, there are reports from Austria, that they want to get rid of their EFs now, because it is clear now that the deal was made by bribery, that they are less capable as promised and too expensive to operate and upgrade for them and Italy already canceled their T3B order, wonder who will be the next to get rid of older versions or new orders.


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## Hello_10

[QUOTE *sancho*;2465430]


> Yes:



there is communication prob. i said, you dont need a new production line of a 4th gen aircraft if you may buy a similar type, fit in comparison upgraded SU30MKIs for around $100mil. total cost of 126 MMRCAs, including establishing infrastruture, musn't exceed $12.6bn otherwise it isn't worth going for it. (I didnt say about upgrading it, its different.)



> Yes we do, if we want alternative weapons, capabilities, ToT, offsets, industrial and political advantages, *besides* what we get from Russia!
> Kargil war, the quality issues of Migs and Russian weapons in the long term, the high operational costs of Russian fighters, the limited useful ToT and offsets that Mig 35 would have given India and no political advantages at all. More than enough clear reasons why we needed to go for new western fighters, besides the *Mig 35 being not competitive enough compared to the others fighters*. It was even clear from the first MRCA competition, that this deal will go to a western vendor and that for good reasons!



Mig35 was as capable as F16 block70 and Super Hornet, and it was neck to neck with Rafale/ EFT and lost points in engine test only, (it was the test of different MRCA aircrafts when Mig35 was tested and ticked the boxes, the criterion). IN isn't fool who are buying Mig29k for their new IAC-1, while Mig35 is the best best version of Mig29s.



> Because the benefits western MMRCAs brings, are not operational only, but in various fields as mentioned above. Besides, lets wait till Pak Fa is in production first to we calculate the costs, because we know that 5th gen fighters and techs are freaking costly and neither Russia, nor India are known to keep timelines and budgets. The price that is given so far is nothing more than speculation, especially for FGFA, since Russia is likely to buy a low cost version mainly based on Su 35 at the begining.



PAK FA/ FGFA won't exceed $120mil




> Oh please, more claims? Even Mig 29Ks costs close to $50 millions and you really think that Mig 35, which must be re-designed first, which needs a newly developed AESA radar, which adds TVC and avionics comes just with a $5 million dollar increase? Add the costs for western upgrades that are necessary and and the costs goes up again. Not to forget that there is no other customer other than India, so all upgrade costs would have to be paid by us only and we know that this would be a great chance for Russian companies to increase the price afterwards isn't it?
> 
> Generally, there should be no doubt about that Russian fighters needs more maintainance than western fighters, especially the engines needs to be replaced more often, not to forget that TVC increases costs in this field too (one reaons why Russian airforce didn't used it on their Flankers so far).
> 
> Not sure what you mean with ticked most of the boxes, but from my point of view Mikoyan wasn't able to keep their promises and that's one reason why the fighter didn't impressed IAF at all. They promised more weaponstations and increased fuel, but there is no version available with bigger wings and additional hardpoints so far. They promised 200Km radar detection, but even at the last Aero India, Phazotron could only state 160Km, not to forget that the radar isn't ready yet (but to be fair, neither is the EF AESA) and has several issues. Lower RCS, more weapons, better avionics that would make it comparable to EF and especially Rafale? Doubtful, since the base design is simply too old to keep up and since the evaluation includes the projection of performance for the next 40 years, it wasn't surprising that the Mig couldn't keep up.
> 
> 
> LOL you replied by stating the same part once again? And that makes it true somehow?
> 
> Let me ask you again, you claim Rafale (an operational fighter that will be available in the version offered in MMRCA by the end of this year) to be a paper tiger, compared to LCA MK2 (production start expected in 2015), upg MKI (upgrade not even fixed yet and first induction expected only around 2014 or later) and the Mig 35, that is available only in tech demo versions, based on older Mig 29 airframes?
> 
> LCA, upgraded MKIs let alone the Mig that not even Russia wants was exported yet, so how are they better than Rafale that not has been exported either? You are contradicting yourself my friend, from operational terms and the current stage of development, the Rafale is clearly ahead of these fighters and at the end only upg MKI will be operationa and more capable in certain fields than the Rafale F3+.



*rest I would like to say few things at the end and close my participation until decision on MMRCA is made, as below:*



> Today, at about Rs 53 to the dollar, that *$15 billion bid translates into Rs 79,500 crore. The two per cent cost of forex hedging is Rs 1,590 crore, taking the bill to Rs 81,090 crore*, Rs 15,525 crore more than last October. The MoD is set to pay almost *twice the Rs 42,000 crore that was budgeted for the MMRCA*.
> Rupee fall jacks up India's arms purchase bill





> The multi-billion contract to buy 126 fighter jets from one of two European bidders could be worth more than *$20bn* almost double the original estimate,
> http://www.defencenews.in/defence-news-internal.asp?get=new&id=798



This much money isn&#8217;t worth wasting for just 126 4th gen multi role aircrafts, on average around $140mil each for expected $17bn to $18bn for 126 MMRCA aircrafts, which would come in production from 2015/16, with adding 3-4 years more for pilots to be trained on them. (and even 5th gen PAK FA would come in production from 2018?) Better invest this much money somewhere else, making roads/ bridges etc.




> the Russian side agreed to upgrade the SU-30 MKIs to its latest version known as *&#8216;Super Sukhoi&#8217; *with additional characteristics. The new version (of SU30MKI) is expected to include a new cockpit, an *upgraded radar (AESA)*and *certain stealth features to avoid radar detection*. Significantly,* the upgraded Sukhoi-30 MKIs will be able to carry a heavier weapons load, especially the airborne version of the Brahmos cruise missile*. India is also looking to upgrade most of its SU-30 MKIs in the long run.
> PM visit: India to buy 42 &#8216;upgraded&#8217; Sukhois - Indian Express



These upgraded SUMKIs with stealth features would be called bit better than even Rafale, with a more powerful russian AESA radar than current french one for Rafale, and Brahmos missiles, and all these 42 upgraded MKIs for $4.2bn only. And about overdependence on Russia, you aren&#8217;t dependent on Russia either for SU30MKIs or PAK FA/ FGFA, you got full techs from raw to product but once you get into the trap of Western suppliers, they will make you dependent on them for techs of at least one type of aircraft of IAF . you will get few tech transfer for MMRCA but they wont let you touch their best techs so easily. You will never have full tech transfer like SU30MKI and PAK FA from any of the Western supplier.

Even China&#8217;s top gun is J10s which are just not in comparison with these upgraded MKIs, (with only old SU27, SU30k), and J10s will also do the work for China, more or less. And if you trust in your engineers/ scientists then even your home made multi role LCAs are good enough with mk2 upgrades which would possibly include AESA radar also. (and you will develop this AESA radar for LCAs by help of Russia only, even if they won&#8217;t say that they helped IAF to do so ). As, if you are already upgrading 51 mirage2000 for any type of very specialized multi role operations, LCAs will easily do the rest of multi role works 

rest I would like to end my contribution until decision on MMRCA is made 

thanks and regards

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## deepakclaw

(few more days+few more weeks+few more months+few more years+.......n) = MMRCA

just remembering my maths............

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## sancho

Hello_10 said:


> there is communication prob.



Not on my side! I even quoted your initial post and marked the important part, where you claimed that missiles costs are included in the MMRCA budget, which simply is wrong. So it's rather strange that you missed it, unless you avoided it on purpose. 

Since you have no arguments and prefer to just repeat your claims on and on, I reply only to those parts that are new.




Hello_10 said:


> These upgraded SUMKIs with stealth features would be called bit better than even Rafale



Stealth features is just a PR term for reduced RCS, which most likely will be achieved by adding more RAM materials and coatings, but no internal weapon bays, shapped airframe, ducted air intake, cranked tailfins...like Pak Fa / FGFA. Upg MKI will have a lower RCS compared to older versions, but won't be in the same league as EF or Rafale in this field!
Same goes for avionics (unless we get something comparable to SPECTRA and DASS from Israel), or weapons (METEOR, AASM, Brimstone, MICA IR, IRIS-T).
As I said, in certain fields, the MMRCAs are better, even compared to upgraded MKIs!




Hello_10 said:


> and you will develop this AESA radar for LCAs by help of Russia only



Did you missed that India constantly rejected to include Russian companies or techs into the development of LCA in the last years?

- Russia offered RD 93, we selected GE 404 / 414 and possibly Snecma as an co-development partner
- R77 was supposed to be the prime missile of LCA until ASTRA is ready, we selected DERBY now
- Russia offered joint development of AESA radar based on Zhuk AE, we asked Western countries for co-development
- Russia offered to help at navalising LCA, we prefered US companies and now get assistance of Europeans




Hello_10 said:


> rest I would like to end my contribution until decision on MMRCA is made



Thanks, next time less claims and repeats of them and more valid arguments please!

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## rockstarIN

Offtopic but Sancho why did we rejected Russian support for LCA, felt it inferior?


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## sancho

> *The Rafale in the home straight to win the Indian market*
> 
> New Delhi next week will have all the elements to choose which of the French aircraft or the Eurofighter, will equip its Air Force. At stake: the acquisition of 126 fighter planes.
> 
> From next week, the timing of the tender for the sale of 126 combat aircraft (M-MRCA project) in the amount initially estimated at $ 12 billion will accelerate. Began November 4, 2011 after the opening of envelopes containing the tenders commercial Dassault and the Eurofighter consortium ( EADS , BAE Systems and Italy's Finmeccanica), the long and tedious work of synthesis of the Indian Air Force (Air Force) on the two bids submitted, should be completed next week. India buys not only a fighter but also the MCO (operational maintenance) and support equipment. Cost of ownership - in clear than the costs of combat aircraft throughout their lives, including in terms of fuel - should be decisive for the contract now valued at $ 20 billion and called "the mother of all business "(" mother of all deals "). A report should be sent in the wake of the Indian Defence Minister, who will forward to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh.
> 
> A country against four
> 
> Policy makers to decide based on the operational side of both units and commercial proposal presented by the two manufacturers ... or not.
> 
> "The Rafale is supported by a country, by four Eurofighter", said a source familiar with the matter. In this respect, the German chancellor, Angela Merkel, wrote last month on behalf of four European partners in the Eurofighter consortium (Germany, Britain, Italy and Spain) last month at Indian Prime Minister to encourage him to choose Eurofighter, which has yet to experience two failures, one in Oman (in front of F-16 Lockheed Martin) and one in Switzerland where the Gripen has won (the Rafale was also nominated). He also encounters difficulties in Saudi Arabia, Riyadh is showing little appreciation for aircraft delivered.
> 
> *For now, it seems that the Rafale keeps an operational advantage over the Eurofighter*, the Air Force had placed the camera lights to its European rival. However, it is the ink bottle case of commercial offerings. *Ideally, the Rafale should be cheaper because in the previous tender, the price was on average between 10% to 15% cheaper than the Eurofighter. Unless, as suggested by some industrial partners in the Rafale, the Eurofighter program's competitors have made great efforts on the price of the unit had to remain competitive*. Because according to Indian rules, the bidder the lowest bidder is deemed the winner



Google Übersetzer

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## BallySingh

only diplomatic factor goes in the favor of eft.i mean 4 nations point


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## sancho

rockstar said:


> Offtopic but Sancho why did we rejected Russian support for LCA, felt it inferior?



To some extend, look at the issues we had with Russian engine quality, or now with the limited life of Russian missiles, not to forget that the avionics were always considered to be less capable. Indian forces and LCA developers aimed on quality and that's why they prefered western parts and partners.


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## praveen007

MMRCA Rumors.
.
.
SOURCE: IDRW NEWS NETWORK:- As Decision on the winner of the MMRCA is coming closer , and India is expected to announce the winner by last last week of this month , there has been buzz of rumors around the countries military circles , *we have been hearing some rumors from our sources , but we have to mention that nothing is confirmed and it still can be rumors and nothing more .*
Since we are almost close to the big announcement *in just two weeks time* , we at idrw.org decided to put together all rumors which we have been hearing , so we like to again tell our readers that , this are just rumors and
nothing official.
So who won the big contest ?
Well as per rumors , *its Eurofighter !!
What happened to Rafale ?
As per Rumors , Rafale are cheaper to operate but spares are worth GOLD
Why Eurofighter ?
Again according to rumors been in circulation , it involved greater TOT and Weapons package was much cheaper compared to French arms package and also EADS willing to make India , Spares Hub for Eurofigther and Partner status .*
But there has been another rumor that it will be Rafale , but it has been heard only from one source ,but Eurofigther winning has been heard from multiple source , we have just put together what rumors are been in circulation and we at idrw.org don&#8217;t want to contribute to the rumor mill , so we have not mentioned other rumors . and we expect our readers not to take it seriously .
.
.
*MMRCA Rumors | idrw.org*

---------- Post added at 05:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:43 PM ----------

MMRCA Rumors.
.
.
SOURCE: IDRW NEWS NETWORK:- As Decision on the winner of the MMRCA is coming closer , and India is expected to announce the winner by last last week of this month , there has been buzz of rumors around the countries military circles , *we have been hearing some rumors from our sources , but we have to mention that nothing is confirmed and it still can be rumors and nothing more .*
Since we are almost close to the big announcement *in just two weeks time* , we at idrw.org decided to put together all rumors which we have been hearing , so we like to again tell our readers that , this are just rumors and
nothing official.
So who won the big contest ?
Well as per rumors , *its Eurofighter !!
What happened to Rafale ?
As per Rumors , Rafale are cheaper to operate but spares are worth GOLD
Why Eurofighter ?
Again according to rumors been in circulation , it involved greater TOT and Weapons package was much cheaper compared to French arms package and also EADS willing to make India , Spares Hub for Eurofigther and Partner status .*
But there has been another rumor that it will be Rafale , but it has been heard only from one source ,but Eurofigther winning has been heard from multiple source , we have just put together what rumors are been in circulation and we at idrw.org dont want to contribute to the rumor mill , so we have not mentioned other rumors . and we expect our readers not to take it seriously .
.
.
*MMRCA Rumors | idrw.org*


----------



## Solar Flare

If the rumors are true, then that is great news!


----------



## Tonny

i want rafale but my heart says its eft.


----------



## Yeti

Don't mind either of the Euro birds as I never wanted a American jet


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## Tonny

we should shift focus to european market rather than u.s market.They are bankrupt and ready to give up for money without sanctions and strings.


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## Shaurya

arre yaar akkad bakkad bambey boo karke koi bhi select kar lo yaar, bore ho gaye ruk ruk kar...


----------



## Shaurya

Tonny said:


> we should shift focus to european market rather than u.s market.They are bankrupt and ready to give up for money without sanctions and strings.


true, but US market is more wide and open to other countries... how about doing business both in US and europe simultaneously??? Some companies like TATA and Mahindra are doing that.. recently Hero corp. of Hero Honda took over UK's well acclaimed Battery operated cycle/scooter producers (ulta motors).. so yeah, I think they are doing the right thing. 

I also, wish these super-companies that handle almost everything should extend their business in army's weapon production too. They should also participate in the aviation sector, just like mikoyan or sukhoi corp. of russia...

---------- Post added at 11:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:17 PM ----------




Yeti said:


> Don't mind either of the Euro birds as I never wanted a American jet



I am pretty sure there were a lot of "strings" attached to its purchase and then F series is quite obsolete now, so its better to go recent fighters...


----------



## Nirvana

^^^ Wow !! what an Idea Sirjee !! Wish you were Member of Defence Ministry or CCS


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## Shaurya

Nirvana said:


> ^^^ Wow !! what an Idea Sirjee !! Wish you were Member of Defence Ministry or CCS


kyun gareeb ka mazak udate ho sahab ji


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## Black Widow

1. couple of month ago, me too get information from highest reliable source about selection.
2. as he asked me to keep the name confidential i can't name the selected bird. 
3. the person is secretary level.


----------



## Shaurya

Black Widow said:


> 1. couple of month ago, me too get information from highest reliable source about selection.
> 2. as he asked me to keep the name confidential i can't name the selected bird.
> 3. the person is secretary level.



do you mean its already selected?? then why dont they announce the result?? or was that meant to be a joke?


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## WHITESMOKE

Black Widow said:


> 1. couple of month ago, me too get information from highest reliable source about selection.
> 2. as he asked me to keep the name confidential i can't name the selected bird.
> 3. the person is secretary level.



Janab aisi baatein mat karo.... ya to naam bta do warna hum greeb logo k sath aise majak mat karo..


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## Black Widow

katwe said:


> do you mean its already selected?? then why dont they announce the result?? or was that meant to be a joke?


strong price negotiations are goingon there are some babus who want to change the decision. they are under influence of kick-back. But Mr anthoney is big obstacle. he is making sure that best get select . he wants a machine that can complement Su30 mki. it sound absurd to me, but this is what i got the information . And moreover its not the plane of my choice. 
by 26 jan we all will know the dexision.


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## Tonny

Black Widow said:


> strong price negotiations are goingon there are some babus who want to change the decision. they are under influence of kick-back. But Mr anthoney is big obstacle. he is making sure that best get select . he wants a machine that can complement Su30 mki. it sound absurd to me, but this is what i got the information . And moreover its not the plane of my choice.
> by 26 jan we all will know the dexision.



phir teri choice kon c hai


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## Shaurya

Black Widow said:


> strong price negotiations are goingon there are *some babus who want to change the decision*. they are under influence of kick-back. But Mr anthoney is big obstacle. he is making sure that best get select . he wants a machine that can complement Su30 mki. it sound absurd to me, but this is what i got the information . And moreover its not the plane of my choice.
> by 26 jan we all will know the dexision.



not surpriswd at all


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## WHITESMOKE

Black Widow said:


> strong price negotiations are goingon there are some babus who want to change the decision. they are under influence of kick-back. But Mr anthoney is big obstacle. he is making sure that best get select . he wants a machine that can complement Su30 mki. it sound absurd to me, but this is what i got the information . And moreover its not the plane of my choice.
> by 26 jan we all will know the dexision.



So it means its EF


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## anathema

Darn..IF EF has won, i seriously wish IAF will not have two air superiority fighters ...Rafale is a better platform, hope the best wins


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## Solar Flare

Guys there is inside news that Eurofighter has won MMRCA. India will become a member of Eurofighter Consortium and will be the industrial partner producing all spare parts, avionics etc. Atleast 20,000 jobs will be created in India and there is chance of Full Transfer-of-Technology (ToT). 

Checkout the Eurofighter website for updates. Also notice the Indian MMRCA banner there.


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## janon

Solar Flare said:


> Guys there is inside news that Eurofighter has won MMRCA. India will become a member of Eurofighter Consortium and* will be the industrial partner producing all spare parts, avionics etc.* Atleast 20,000 jobs will be created in India and there is chance of Full Transfer-of-Technology (ToT).
> 
> Checkout the Eurofighter website for updates. Also notice the Indian MMRCA banner there.



That part is awesome, if true. Not only will we not have to depend on anybody for spares, we would actually be the suppliers to other countries. Sounds almost too good to be true.


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## rockstarIN

If that is the case, Euro engine can be fitted into LCA-MKII

---------- Post added at 11:46 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:44 AM ----------




Black Widow said:


> strong price negotiations are goingon there are some babus who want to change the decision. they are under influence of kick-back. B*ut Mr anthoney is big obstacle. he is making sure that best get select *. he wants a machine that can complement Su30 mki. it sound absurd to me, but this is what i got the information . And moreover its not the plane of my choice.
> by 26 jan we all will know the dexision.



I'm so proud of him, he is from my state..


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## Solar Flare

rockstar said:


> If that is the case, Euro engine can be fitted into LCA-MKII




No buddy, LCA will use GE engine as the contract has been signed.


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## Jon Snow

anathema said:


> Darn..IF EF has won, i seriously wish IAF will not have two air superiority fighters ...Rafale is a better platform, hope the best wins



We already have two air superiority fighters - Mig 29 and Su 30MKI. The IAF uses the MKI in Air dominance mode but give me one reason why we cant use it for ground attack? It has huge payload, long range, lots of diff kind of weaponry available. We can upgrade half the MKI's to specialize in the ground attack (like we are doing for some - i.e. giving them brahmos and nirbhay etc) and upgrade the other half for air superiority only ( AESA, RCS reduction, newer BVR missiles like astra, R 77M1 or even meteor ). This will give us freedom to buy the EFT and use it for air superiority like it was meant to.


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## Solar Flare

Guys who told you EFT is not good for air-to-ground superiority? EFT is pretty new and hasn't seen much action in battles. In Libya, there were not enough trained pilots to fly EFT (read wikipedia article) therefore Rafale was given the primary role of destroying ground targets. Specifications of EFT and Rafale are very similar, infact EFT is much better than Rafale in some areas eg: a more powerful AESA radar compared to smaller radar for Rafale and better avionics. So, Don't underestimate EFT.


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## The enlightened

Damn it,
I don't want EF to win.
If Rafale would win, then IAF would be the most beautiful AF in the whole world.[see SU 30mki and of course Rafale]


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## Roybot

^^Beautiful airforce?

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## Abingdonboy

^^ I'd take deadly over beauty any day. Good thing is, in this case, the beauties are also deadly.

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## Black Widow

rockstar said:


> If that is the case, Euro engine can be fitted into LCA-MKII
> 
> ---------- Post added at 11:46 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:44 AM ----------
> 
> 
> even though mr Antony is not frm my state but i still like him. he is the a
> I'm so proud of him, he is from my state..


 
i'm proud of mr Antony. He brought arjuna and LCA back. The dallas are pissed off of him.


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## Black Widow

Jon Snow said:


> We already have two air superiority fighters - Mig 29 and Su 30MKI. The IAF uses the MKI in Air dominance mode but give me one reason why we cant use it for ground attack? It has huge payload, long range, lots of diff kind of weaponry available. We can upgrade half the MKI's to specialize in the ground attack (like we are doing for some - i.e. giving them brahmos and nirbhay etc) and upgrade the other half for air superiority only ( AESA, RCS reduction, newer BVR missiles like astra, R 77M1 or even meteor ). This will give us freedom to buy the EFT and use it for air superiority like it was meant to.


 
i'll comment only after official release comes. i would try to solve your query.
1. All MiG29 are air superiority fighter.
2. Few Su30 MKIs are air superiority fighter. 
3. rest MKIs are multirole. theyes are better ground attack fighter.
4.some mkis are dedicated for brahmos

so please don't worry.


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## sancho

Solar Flare said:


> Guys who told you EFT is not good for air-to-ground superiority? EFT is pretty new and hasn't seen much action in battles. In Libya, there were not enough trained pilots to fly EFT (read wikipedia article) therefore Rafale was given the primary role of destroying ground targets. Specifications of EFT and Rafale are very similar, infact EFT is much better than Rafale in some areas eg: a more powerful AESA radar compared to smaller radar for Rafale and better avionics. So, Don't underestimate EFT.



So much to the wiki and forum myth about EF and now to the facts:

- EF has only a single A2G weapon so far, which was too heavy to be used for most targets in Libya, that's why it couldn't be used much in A2G like other fighters
- EF has twin seat fighters mainly as trainers, that's why Tornados often provided laser guidance to help out the EF pilots
- EF has no AESA radar yet, demonstrator to be available by 2013, final version with A2A modes only by 2015
- Full A2G capabilities officially expected by UK government by 2018


Btw, the reason why there were so less pilots, trained for A2G was, that there are problems in the spare delivery and many EFs had to be canibalised to get others in flying condition.

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## sancho

praveen007 said:


> MMRCA Rumors.
> .
> .
> SOURCE: IDRW NEWS NETWORK:- As Decision on the winner of the MMRCA is coming closer



A crappy article that does nothing else than fuel the speculations. No matter which fighter will be selected, don't let you self fool by the media guys! They want to sell reports and that people talks about them, but when you look at it a bit closer you realise that it actually have not a single credible news in it. It is just talking about some rumors, without any real source and some made up points:



> Why Eurofighter ?
> Again according to rumors been in circulation...Weapons package was much cheaper compared to French arms package



*Both fighters* are offered with:

- METEOR
- Paveway LGB
- Scalp / Storm Shadow Cruise missile
- even Brimstone is now on offer for both

Not to forget that the EF weapon package currently has only A2A missiles + LGB and any other weapon that the Rafale already has, must be funded for integration by India first! The only cost advantage the EF has at the weaponpackage is for the SR missiles, where MICA IR is more expensive, since it was developed for short and medium range at once.

So when most of the main weapons are the same anyway and we have to add a lot of money to make EFs weapon package as good as Rafales today, how should it be cheaper?


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## Solar Flare

With Rafale IAF might face problem of spare parts. Dessault has not been successful in securing any deals for Rafale and if IAF doesn't select Rafale, the production of Rafale will be stopped. Also the avionics of Rafale is older than EFT. IAF will consider these factors and cost will be decided based on the total life cycle and local production of parts, in which case EFT might be more cheaper and viable.


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## sancho

Black Widow said:


> i'll comment only after official release comes. i would try to solve your query.
> 1. All MiG29 are air superiority fighter.
> 2. Few Su30 MKIs are air superiority fighter.
> 3. rest MKIs are multirole. theyes are better ground attack fighter.
> 4.some mkis are dedicated for brahmos
> 
> so please don't worry.



*All* upgraded Mig 29 and all Su 30s are multi role fighters, with higher focus on A2A capabilities. *All*MKIs have the same A2G capability and since the airframe changes are part of the coming upgrade, *all* MKIs will be able to carry Brahmos or other new missiles in future.
We have to get rid of the old idea of air superioity fighters and ground attack fighters, that's not what IAF wants anymore and that's why they upgrade older single role fighters like the Mig 29 to be useful in strike to, even if it's not it's prime role. That's why they even wanted only twin seat MKIs and FGFAs, since the twin seat version adds advantages mainly in beeing useful in strike or recon roles.

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## sancho

Solar Flare said:


> With Rafale IAF might face problem of spare parts. Dessault has not been successful in securing any deals for Rafale and if IAF doesn't select Rafale, the production of Rafale will be stopped. Also the avionics of Rafale is older than EFT. IAF will consider these factors and cost will be decided based on the total life cycle and local production of parts, in which case EFT might be more cheaper and viable.



Buddy, you are obviously new to the forum and new to the MMRCA as well. You should go through this thread and get a better idea about EF and Rafale. 
Rafale production line "just" for France will go on beyond 2020, while EF production line will be stopped in 2017.
Rafale avionics were constantly upgraded and even the F3+ that is offered to India will get new features, while EF partners don't have the money for any new features. The T3A versions they ordered, will have the same radar, the same avionics, the same engine just like the older versions that are currently in service. The only changes are, a few new weapons, updated software and wirings to add real upgrades later during MLU!


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## Solar Flare

EFT Tranche 3 and Rafale F3 will be comparable for A2G capability.


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## sancho

Solar Flare said:


> EFT Tranche 3 and Rafale F3 will be comparable for A2G capability.



Tranche 3 is splitted into T3A and T3B. The current EF partners will only procure T3As and the only new A2G weapon they will get are lighter Paveway LGBs, nothing else was cleared of funded now. So these EFs will be less A2G capable then our upgraded Mirage 2000s and Mig 29s, unless we pay a heck of money to integrate new weapons. Also as mentioned, British government itself estimates EF to be fully A2G capably only by 2018 and even that only if funds will be cleared, which is not planned at the moment when the partners are cutting their defence budgets big time!


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## rockstarIN

Still I strongly feel that, even after getting money is worth for spend theories, Rafale's bad marketing will be again make them losers. M2k Deal and the weapon packages are damn huge. 

Why French weapon systems are so costly, even if you compare to American weapons like AIM-120, their MICA is too costly. We are paying 1.9 million per missile (as per old article) whereas AIM-120 is available may be for $900,000/- (2007 rate as pwe wiki is $700,000/-) I think cost wise this is the most advantage for EF.


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## Shaurya

I have heard that eurofighter is more effective in producing and providing spare parts and that too at a cheaper rate, rafale on the other hand is very expensive to maintain.. my 2 paise


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## Jason bourne

one of the strong reasone which i can find for eurofighter to win is as US planes are dumped they are pitching for eft now and i belive india cant dump US again and again ..my 2 paisa ...


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## sancho

rockstar said:


> Why French weapon systems are so costly, even if you compare to American weapons



Simple!

- higher R&D costs in Europe compared to the US
- higher exchange rates compared to the Dollar
- lower production numbers compared to US weapons
- in terms of MICA IR, was not designed as a SR missile only, but as MR missile with all features of a SR missile

Most of these reasons applies to any European weapon or product, which makes them more expensive andwhat difficult to export. 




katwe said:


> I have heard that eurofighter is more effective in producing and providing spare parts



You might find these articles interesting:



> *Grounded! Almost half of RAF's Typhoon jets unable to fly because they don't have the spare parts to fix them
> 
> Only 20 jets, which cost £126 million each, available at any given time*...



Grounded! Almost half of RAF's Typhoon jets unable to fly because they don't have the spare parts to fix them | Mail Online




> *RAF strips jets for spare parts: Typhoons torn up for Libya air fleet*
> 
> The RAF is tearing apart state-of-the-art fighter jets for spare parts to keep warplanes flying over Libya.
> 
> Three Typhoons, costing £125million each, are being cannibalised at RAF Coningsby in Lincolnshire to cover a desperate shortage of parts...



RAF strips jets for spare parts: Typhoons torn up for Libya air fleet | Mail Online




> *Eurofighter Typhoon: It's EVEN WORSE than we thought*
> 
> RAF gets just 107 jets  and new budget trainwreck looms...
> 
> ...The [2008] spares procurement contract does not include penalties for late delivery ...
> 
> To compensate, the Department [the MoD] has had to take parts from some of its Typhoon aircraft to make other aircraft available to fly...



Eurofighter Typhoon: It's EVEN WORSE than we thought ? The Register

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## Black Widow

sancho said:


> *All* upgraded Mig 29 and all Su 30s are multi role fighters, with higher focus on A2A capabilities. *All*MKIs have the same A2G capability and since the airframe changes are part of the coming upgrade, *all* MKIs will be able to carry Brahmos or other new missiles in future.
> We have to get rid of the old idea of air superioity fighters and ground attack fighters, that's not what IAF wants anymore and that's why they upgrade older single role fighters like the Mig 29 to be useful in strike to, even if it's not it's prime role. That's why they even wanted only twin seat MKIs and FGFAs, since the twin seat version adds advantages mainly in beeing useful in strike or recon roles.




I differ, this all Multirole fighter doesn't hold good for me. All airforces in world keep small squadron of Airsuperiority fighters. This is derived from "Teeth and nail Philosophy". Like every empire in world used to keep best frontline fighters with regular soldiers.

I don't see any logic of having all 230+ MKIs Brahmos capable also. Infact it was proposal from Mikhail in MKAS, I don't know if India want it or not. 

@All Multirole MiG29: I couldn't find any article which talk about improving ground capability of MiG29. All article talk about "Upgraded radar, engine and range."


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## Archie

People need to understand the Defination of ground attack

There are 9 types of mission in ground attack

1. Deep strike against enemy installations 
2. Bunker Bursting / Runway Penetration or destruction
3. Suppression of enemy air defence 
4. Standoff missile Delivery ( Air launched cruise Missile strike)
5. anti armour operations
6. Close Air support for ground troops
7. Nuclear Delivery
8. Taking out enemy Radar operations
9. Anti ship operations
Being able to carry LGB doesnot mean that an aircraft is good at ground attack 

Our Upgraded Mig29 will be able to carry 250 , 500 and 1000 kg LGBs and the fighter will be able to carry out strikes against Enemy Bunkers , runways and other instalations , which it was not able to perform earlier 

In the same Manner our current MKI can perform Deep strike missions , SEAD , anti Radar , Bunker Bursting , Runway Penetration , while some sqds can even carry out Anti ship operations , and all MKI are also capable of delivering Nukes
The Planned upgrade of MKI will increase its survivability in all these missions thanks o better radar , avionics , Engine and RCS reduction . While first 50 and Last 42 MKI will also be able to launch Standoff Missiles like Brahmos and Nirbhay

But still both aircrafts cannot perform all the Ground attack Missions
and will be unable to switch from say SEAD and Anti radar mission to say Bunker Bursting and Runway Penetration 

Both aircrafts also cannot carry out Close Air support and Anti Armour missions currently performed by Jaguar IS
InShort, while Mig 29 and MKI can replace Mig27 in Ground attack role , but still cannot replace Jaguar

mmrca aircraft will perform all Ground attack Missions including nuclear delivery , except SEAD and Anti Radar operations , these missions will remain with MKI and in future will be performed by FGFA

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## Black Widow

Archie said:


> People need to understand the Defination of ground attack
> 
> There are 9 types of mission in ground attack
> 
> 1. Deep strike against enemy installations
> 2. Bunker Bursting / Runway Penetration or destruction
> 3. Suppression of enemy air defence
> 4. Standoff missile Delivery ( Air launched cruise Missile strike)
> 5. anti armour operations
> 6. Close Air support for ground troops
> 7. Nuclear Delivery
> 8. Taking out enemy Radar operations
> 9. Anti ship operations
> Being able to carry LGB doesnot mean that an aircraft is good at ground attack
> 
> Our Upgraded Mig29 will be able to carry 250 , 500 and 1000 kg LGBs and the fighter will be able to carry out strikes against Enemy Bunkers , runways and other instalations , which it was not able to perform earlier
> 
> In the same Manner our current MKI can perform Deep strike missions , SEAD , anti Radar , Bunker Bursting , Runway Penetration , while some sqds can even carry out Anti ship operations , and all MKI are also capable of delivering Nukes
> The Planned upgrade of MKI will increase its survivability in all these missions thanks o better radar , avionics , Engine and RCS reduction . While first 50 and Last 42 MKI will also be able to launch Standoff Missiles like Brahmos and Nirbhay
> 
> But still both aircrafts cannot perform all the Ground attack Missions
> and will be unable to switch from say SEAD and Anti radar mission to say Bunker Bursting and Runway Penetration
> 
> Both aircrafts also cannot carry out Close Air support and Anti Armour missions currently performed by Jaguar IS
> InShort, while Mig 29 and MKI can replace Mig27 in Ground attack role , but still cannot replace Jaguar
> 
> mmrca aircraft will perform all Ground attack Missions including nuclear delivery , except SEAD and Anti Radar operations , these missions will remain with MKI and in future will be performed by FGFA




Thanks for information, But most of the part I already knew. My point was not about ground attack role, rather Air Superiority.. Like you talked about ground attack, there are many dimension of Air supremacy.

What my focus was I can not buy the statement that all of our top fighter will be multirole. My point was simple that few squadron of MKI will be used for AirSuperiority role. 

Multirole is a platform from which we can make good Air Superiority fighter or good ground attack fighter or a fighter which can perform both role... 

All major airforces in world have small number of Air superiority fighter in their inventory. So does India...


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## the rafter

Until the MoD makes an official announcement you could take this news with a pinch of salt...

Govt to soon close deal for fighter jets - Economy and Politics - livemint.com



> New Delhi: *The Eurofighter Typhoon may have emerged as the lowest bidder (L1) * in the multi-billion dollar deal to procure 126 fighter jets for the Indian Air Force (IAF), according to people familiar with the matter.
> 
> *Mint could not independently verify this.*
> 
> The two remaining contenders in the deal are likely to be called by the defence ministry on Thursday, these people said on condition of anonymity.
> The Eurofighter Typhoon is promoted by European Aeronautic Defence and Space Co., or EADS. The other contender vying for the L1 slot is the Rafale, promoted by Dassault SA.
> 
> Sitanshu Kar, the defence ministry&#8217;s spokesperson, declined to comment.
> 
> Boeing&#8217;s F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Lockheed Martin&#8217;s F-16IN Super Viper, both from the US and initially seen to be among the frontrunners, Russia&#8217;s Mikoyan MiG-35 and Sweden&#8217;s Saab JAS 39 Gripen were the other contenders.
> 
> The defence ministry short-listed the Eurofighter and the Rafale after extensive field trials. The shortlist was announced on 29 April. The deal is potentially worth $10 billion, which would make it the single largest defence deal India has ever struck.




Livefist: Eurofighter Lowest Bidder In Indian MMRCA Bid, Sources Tell Newspaper


> I'd been very wary all weekend about posting about a very strong rumour that's been doing the rounds specifically for the last five days or so, but now a mainsteam Indian business newspaper (Mint) has a piece today leading with precisely that -- word that the Eurofighter Typhoon has been identified by the Indian MoD as the lowest bidder (L1) in India's monumental $20-billion medium multirole combat aircraft (M-MRCA) competition. Obviously, there is no official confirmation of this, and there is unlikely to be any until a formal announcement is made either way. The competition has been marked by hearsay and rumours right through its life (sometimes, vendors have leapt in to correct them), and I'm only putting this post up since a mainstream newspaper has put it down in print (and that I'd heard the rumour as well). It's delicate right now.
> 
> The brief report goes on to say that representatives of EADS Cassidian and Dassault are to be summoned to the MoD on Thursday (Jan 12). So is this it? We'll know soon. Stay tuned.


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## Gandhi G in da house

when is the result going to be out ?


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## the rafter

nick_indian said:


> when is the result going to be out ?



I would hope by January 26th.


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## kaykay

just got a news from livefist that eurofighter is the lowest bidder.....sorry i cant post the link because i am in north sikkim now for tour...with no laptop and i hardly get network here on phone..so someone pls do that.

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## janon

kaykay said:


> just got a news from livefist that eurofighter is the lowest bidder.....sorry i cant post the link because i am in north sikkim now for tour...with no laptop and i hardly get network here on phone..so someone pls do that.



Here it is:
Livefist: Eurofighter Lowest Bidder In Indian MMRCA Bid, Sources Tell Newspaper

And here is the original newspaper link he quotes. Note that they mention that the information is unverified:
http://www.livemint.com/2012/01/09225047/Govt-to-soon-close-deal-for-fi.html

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## Bl[i]tZ

I'd been very wary all weekend about posting about a very strong rumour that's been doing the rounds specifically for the last five days or so, but now a mainsteam Indian business newspaper (Mint) has a piece today leading with precisely that -- word that the Eurofighter Typhoon has been identified by the Indian MoD as the lowest bidder (L1) in India's monumental $20-billion medium multirole combat aircraft (M-MRCA) competition. Obviously, there is no official confirmation of this, and there is unlikely to be any until a formal announcement is made either way. The competition has been marked by hearsay and rumours right through its life (sometimes, vendors have leapt in to correct them), and I'm only putting this post up since a mainstream newspaper has put it down in print (and that I'd heard the rumour as well). It's delicate right now.

The brief report goes on to say that representatives of EADS Cassidian and Dassault are to be summoned to the MoD on Thursday (Jan 12). So is this it? We'll know soon. Stay tuned.


Livefist: Eurofighter Lowest Bidder In Indian MMRCA Bid, Sources Tell Newspaper

Here is the livemint story -
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


*Govt to soon close deal for fighter jets
*​

_The two remaining contenders in the deal are likely to be called by the defence ministry on Thursday_


New Delhi: The *Eurofighter Typhoon may have emerged as the lowest bidder *(L1) in the multi-billion dollar deal to procure 126 fighter jets for the Indian Air Force (IAF), according to people familiar with the matter.

Mint could not independently verify this.







The two remaining contenders in the deal are likely to be called by the defence ministry on Thursday, these people said on condition of anonymity.

The Eurofighter Typhoon is promoted by European Aeronautic Defence and Space Co., or EADS. The other contender vying for the L1 slot is the Rafale, promoted by Dassault SA.

Sitanshu Kar, the defence ministry&#8217;s spokesperson, declined to comment.

Boeing&#8217;s F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Lockheed Martin&#8217;s F-16IN Super Viper, both from the US and initially seen to be among the frontrunners, Russia&#8217;s Mikoyan MiG-35 and Sweden&#8217;s Saab JAS 39 Gripen were the other contenders.

The defence ministry short-listed the Eurofighter and the Rafale after extensive field trials. The shortlist was announced on 29 April. The deal is potentially worth $10 billion, which would make it the single largest defence deal India has ever struck.

Govt to soon close deal for fighter jets - Economy and Politics - livemint.com

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## rockstarIN

So this is it? on Jan 12th ---is the day to announce the winner?


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## Lord Of Gondor

Something's fishy!
This is the pic EF home page shows:




Eurofighter:  Home
BUT no mention of India in the Rafale page!

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## IndiaIsrael

Already posted.


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## kriish

hey my typhoon is coming to india and ''cum''ing on rafile

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## Bl[i]tZ

An EF documentary I absolutely love (in 1080p) has SAM, A2G and Su-35 







---------- Post added at 10:41 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:40 AM ----------




IndiaIsrael said:


> Already posted.



You posted 34 minutest after I had posted. Just go to this page and see the timings India Defence


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## Lankan Ranger

*So EF Enters India?*


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## sudhir007

Lankan Ranger said:


> *So EF Enters India?*


No to sure coze rafale always make surprise entry

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## Lankan Ranger

sudhir007 said:


> No to sure coze rafale always make surprise entry



Let's see......

EF






or Rafale

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## sreekimpact

SO at LAST !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

EUROFIGHTER!!!!!!!


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## perplexed

My heart said EF :BVICTORY:

WOW i love this news...


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## Archie

Sadly , its true that EF has won the mmrca
Despite all my faith Desault has screwed again
Rafale was only Marginally cheaper in terms of Fly away cost , as well as flying cost per hr , but its spare parts and weapon's Package was way too expensive

EF's offer to make India the spare part hub of Typhoon and MOD agreeing to Raytheon's pitch to do the weapons package , really clinched the deal for EF

Funny thing is that we are likely to get the better versions of Aim 9X , AMRAAM Aim 120C , Paveway III and JDAM purchased by Pakistan along with F16 Blk 52

Other Weapons will include 
Harpoon Blk III with 312 km range , same as the one purchased for the P8I Neptune
HARM anti radiation missiles for use in SEAD and anti radar operations 
BAE Brimstone Anti Armour Missiles , same as the one that will go in RAF Typhoons
These Weapon systems will together cost an Estimated 3 Billion USD , which is nearly 2 Billion USD cheaper than the French Package

Infact , the only Weapon that is still unknown is the Air Launched Cruise Missiles 
With American Raytheon SLAM system competing with Storm Shadow and Taurus for a seperate weapon's contract for 120-132 Missiles worth an estimated 1 Billion USD.....

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## sudhir007

Archie said:


> Sadly , its true that EF has won the mmrca
> Despite all my faith Desault has screwed again
> Rafale was only Marginally cheaper in terms of Fly away cost , as well as flying cost per hr , but its spare parts and weapon's Package was way too expensive
> 
> EF's offer to make India the spare part hub of Typhoon and MOD agreeing to Raytheon's pitch to do the weapons package , really clinched the deal for EF
> 
> Funny thing is that we are likely to get the better versions of Aim 9X , AMRAAM Aim 120C , Paveway III and JDAM purchased by Pakistan along with F16 Blk 52
> 
> Other Weapons will include
> Harpoon Blk III with 312 km range , same as the one purchased for the P8I Neptune
> HARM anti radiation missiles for use in SEAD and anti radar operations
> BAE Brimstone Anti Armour Missiles , same as the one that will go in RAF Typhoons
> These Weapon systems will together cost an Estimated 3 Billion USD , which is nearly 2 Billion USD cheaper than the French Package
> 
> Infact , the only Weapon that is still unknown is the Air Launched Cruise Missiles
> With American Raytheon SLAM system competing with Storm Shadow and Taurus for a seperate weapon's contract for 120-132 Missiles worth an estimated 1 Billion USD.....



yah you r ryt.
But we need better ground attack fighter where i think rafale is much much better then EF coze we already have superiority f/a like Su-30mki and we get around 50 PAF-ka from 2017 which also air dominate fighter.


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## Dash

This is impossible......Livefist rumors are best to be overklooked


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## Jon Snow

sudhir007 said:


> yah you r ryt.
> But we need better ground attack fighter where i think rafale is much much better then EF coze we already have superiority f/a like Su-30mki and we get around 50 PAF-ka from 2017 which also air dominate fighter.


 
Yes rafale is the better ground attack fighter- no question about this ....... But since these two have been shortlisted the question of performance or capabilities is useless - the only thing which matters right now is which one is cheaper - and if it is the eft - well the iaf have stated that they will be happy with either one so i guess we will have to trust their decision ....


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## Jon Snow

Dash said:


> This is impossible......Livefist rumors are best to be overklooked


 
We would be wise to take all rumours with a pinch of salt but I dont think it is so far fetched that the eft wins so as to call it impossible.
Just look at the mica missile deal for the mirage 2000 - bloody expensive - the aim 120C which will come with the eft ( as a stop gap measure till we get the meteor) is far far cheaper - and if we buy the rafale we will be forced to buy large no. of micas as the rafale uses it as its dogfighting missile as well - compared to the eft's dogfighting missiles like aim 9x or iris T which are a third of the mica's price.
Looking at the mirage upgrade deal we can forsee that the rafale upgrades will bleed us dry as well. Also the rafale engines require more maintenance( am basing this on the fact that the ej 200 has fewer moving parts and lesser stages and are hailed as very good engines the world over)
so it would not be a surprise if the eft comes out to be L1

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## rockstarIN

As I wrote in the MRCA discussion section, the high cost of French arms & spares played the larger part. Desault not ready to negotiate at all. See the M2k deal..

I feel strongly that we will get all know how of the radar & Avionics of EF. Else MoD will not go for American systems. May be later we can integrate our munitions and BVRs on EF.

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## Jon Snow

rockstar said:


> As I wrote in the MRCA discussion section, the high cost of French arms & spares played the larger part. Desault not ready to negotiate at all. See the M2k deal..
> 
> I feel strongly that we will get all know how of the radar & Avionics of EF. Else MoD will not go for American systems. May be later we can integrate our munitions and BVRs on EF.


 
Agreed..... But why would we want to integrate our munitions and bvrs on eft - there is nothing in the forseeable future better than the meteor missile out there.


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## sreekimpact

rockstar said:


> As I wrote in the MRCA discussion section, the high cost of French arms & spares played the larger part. Desault not ready to negotiate at all. See the M2k deal..
> 
> I feel strongly that we will get all know how of the radar & Avionics of EF. Else MoD will not go for American systems. May be later we can integrate our munitions and BVRs on EF.



and what about TOT on EJ200 engine ....??


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## ali.jishan786

ohh sad.......I just love Rafale


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## Jason bourne

delivery should be start around mid 2014 what u say ?


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## rockstarIN

sreekimpact said:


> and what about TOT on EJ200 engine ....??



The point is, we Indians adhere the agreements of ToT and never copied it. Otherwise we make Su30 engines here now on ToT, bu never went to make a copy of it.

---------- Post added at 12:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:54 PM ----------




Jon Snow said:


> Agreed..... But why would we want to integrate our munitions and bvrs on eft - there is nothing in the forseeable future better than the meteor missile out there.



We should not get sanctions from USA any time. What if in critical time USA stopped giving weapons?

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## Mani2020

I would just say that be careful with your joy, who knows the next moment will thwart it for you and spoil the brat 

We have seen such claims before ...where it was mentioned that a particular fighter has won the competition but then the news took a complete 360 degree .....until and unless there is no official declaration nothing can be rejoice


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## Roybot

MMRCA is like a bollywood thriller. It never ends!

Anyways, so is IAF going to get any fighters off the shelf?

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## Kazhugu

Mani2020 said:


> I would just say that be careful with your joy, who knows the next moment will thwart it for you and spoil the brat
> 
> We have seen such claims before ...where it was mentioned that a particular fighter has won the competition but then the news took a complete 360 degree .....until and unless there is no official declaration nothing can be rejoice



actually even if there is a 1080 degree turn....it doesnt matter....either eft or rafale..its pretty much badass for the neighbourhood its gonna be operating in....

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## prabhakar

No need to worry... both are most capable aircraft as certified by IAF after extensive evaluations. So for me

EFT = Rafale

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## praveen007

*Eurofighter Typhoon
may have emerged as
the lowest bidder (L1)
in MMRCA
.
.
Eurofighter Typhoon may have emerged as the lowest bidder (L1) in MMRCA | idrw.org*
++





.
.
The Eurofighter Typhoon may have emerged as
the lowest bidder (L1) in the multi-billion dollar
deal to procure 126 fighter jets for the Indian Air
Force (IAF), according to people familiar with the
matter.
Mint could not independently verify this.The two
remaining contenders in the deal are likely to be
called by the defence ministry on Thursday, these
people said on condition of anonymity.
The Eurofighter Typhoon is promoted by
European Aeronautic Defence and Space Co., or
EADS. The other contender vying for the L1 slot
is the Rafale, promoted by Dassault SA.
Sitanshu Kar, the defence ministrys
spokesperson, declined to comment.
Boeings F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Lockheed
Martins F-16IN Super Viper, both from the US
and initially seen to be among the frontrunners,
RussiasMikoyan MiG-35 and Swedens Saab JAS
39 Gripen were the other contenders.
The defence ministry short-listed the Eurofighter
and the Rafale after extensive field trials. The
shortlist was announced on 29 April. The deal is
potentially worth $10 billion, which would make it
the single largest defence deal India has ever struck.


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## rockstarIN

from the signals from EF website too, it seems they have fetched it.


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## jha

rockstar said:


> from the signals from EF website too, it seems they have fetched it.



We should not forget the EJ-2000/GE-414 affair...Then also they had announced that EJ had clinched the deal...

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## sancho

Black Widow said:


> I differ, this all Multirole fighter doesn't hold good for me[/B]. All airforces in world keep small squadron of Airsuperiority fighters. This is derived from "Teeth and nail Philosophy". Like every empire in world used to keep best frontline fighters with regular soldiers.



That might be your personal opionion and even I think that it's good to have some specialised aircrafts too, but that's defenitely now the way the air forces all over the world are handling things now. Every air force is diverting it's fleet from specialised single role fighters to multi role fighters, be it Su 27 Flankers, that now changed to Su 35 and 30 multi role Flankers, or F15 Eagles, that now are Strike Eagles. The improvements of radars, avionics and especially smarter weapons made dedicated aircrafts not important anymore.
In the past, a strike fighter was good when it can fly low and at lower speeds with good payloads and dedicated radar/avionics (A10 for example), to day even air superiority fighters can carry large loads of bombs and can use them at high speed and high altitudes too. That doesn mean that you can't specialise a platform to do a certain role better (see the Su 34), but it's not necessarily needed anymore and that's why the F35 for example is counted as a multi role fighter and useful in A2A as well, although it's general flight performance is more comparable to older ground attack fighters (not fast, not maneuverable or agile).
The main difference of the multi role fighters today lies in the design focus, some are designed more for A2A (F22, Pak Fa, EF, Mig 29), some more for A2G (F18), some are more balanced (Rafale, F16). 




Black Widow said:


> I don't see any logic of having all 230+ MKIs Brahmos capable also.



Because you look at it too complicated! Brahmos capability is actually nothing more than strengthening of the centerline hardpoints, some new wireings and software upgrades. All this is part of the basic MKI upgrade, which every older MKI will go through (remember, overhaul of the airframe, replacing and adding of materials, new avionics and cockpit displays...). So it's not like it's a special thing that only some squads will get, but it's a general upgrade of the entire MKI fleet.
The advantage of having all MKIs Brahmos capable should be obvious as well, no matter if we use it for land attack at the north, east or western borders, or as an anti ship missile at the coasts, any MKI can use it in these roles from any airbase. IAF will be way more flexible to do these roles, instead of checking first where the next useful fighter is available to use these weapons in a certain region.



Black Widow said:


> @All Multirole MiG29: I couldn't find any article which talk about improving ground capability of MiG29. All article talk about "Upgraded radar, engine and range."



Mig 29s didn't had A2G capability at all and now will be able to use LGBs with LDP and some A2G missiles. However, back to topic.


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## sancho

janon said:


> Here it is:
> Livefist: Eurofighter Lowest Bidder In Indian MMRCA Bid, Sources Tell Newspaper
> 
> And here is the original newspaper link he quotes. Note that they mention that the information is unverified:
> Govt to soon close deal for fighter jets - Economy and Politics - livemint.com



They are basically reposting the same rumors and not adding real news or infos.



rockstar said:


> from the signals from EF website too, it seems they have fetched it.



EF website didn't changed actually, they have the Indian banner since the shortlisting, which was a big success for them. 



jha said:


> We should not forget the EJ-2000/GE-414 affair...Then also they had announced that EJ had clinched the deal...



Yeah and about the Indian bloggers and reportes were used to field wrong reports. We have no option to wait until there is an official statement, be it from one of the vendors or MoD.

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## Varunastra

we should not rejoice so much!!!!!!!!!..............if this news turns out false then the pakistanis and the chinese are really gonna make our life in pdf miserable!!!!!


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## Contract Killer

From the day one I have been saying the winner will be EFT. No matter how much time they take to declare, it is only and only EFT.


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## sudhir007

UDAYCAMPUS said:


> we should not rejoice so much!!!!!!!!!..............if this news turns out false then the pakistanis and the chinese are really gonna make our life in pdf miserable!!!!!


dont worry if this news fake then it mean rafale win.
in both case our friendly neighbour will gonna happy


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## sancho

rockstar said:


> As I wrote in the MRCA discussion section, the high cost of French arms & spares played the larger part. Desault not ready to negotiate at all. See the M2k deal..
> 
> I feel strongly that we will get all know how of the radar & Avionics of EF. Else MoD will not go for American systems. May be later we can integrate our munitions and BVRs on EF.



Buddy, don't take these silly rumors of costier weapons to account, they are baseless! You should stick with the official statements about what L1 really means, because that includes way more than costs of the fighter. Not to forget that the offsets will play an important role too, there is defenitely an aim on getting as much industrial benefits as possible and that's maybe the strongest point of the EF.

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## prabhakar

I hope we will choose EF.. rafale would be very expensive.. look at the deal for Mirage.. Dassault is a stuborn entity.. see how they messed up with UAE and India.


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## Nirvana

Rafale All the Way !!


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## livingdead

Sad news. I thought Rafale will win.


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## sathya

waiting for spark to comment.. hardcore rafale fan..

btw rafale will never be cheaper than EFT if India becomes partner in EFT..

Dassult loss will hurt more than gmbh loss, ..


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## Abingdonboy

And so it goes on.....


A few days back I read on Prasun's blog (Trishul) that he had strong indications the Rafele has been found cheapest and would be announced as the winner soon. It's not over till it's over and I won't be sure and till I hear the words from the DM's mouth myself.


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## graphican

Good luck India.

With Pakistan's point of view, its better that India went for EF.


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## prabhakar

Both are formidable platforms. They would be stationed against China. I believe by positioning them against Pakistan is over kill.

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## The enlightened

graphican said:


> Good luck India.
> 
> With Pakistan's point of view, its better that India went for EF.


Howzatttttt?


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## Lord Of Gondor

The enlightened said:


> Howzatttttt?


Saudi Operates them?


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## T90TankGuy

the EF was always the better option , sure hope this is true.


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## The enlightened

Lord Of Gondor said:


> Saudi Operates them?


And I don't think that PK and SA are close enough for SA to reveal secrets about EF to PAF.


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## Abingdonboy

Lord Of Gondor said:


> Saudi Operates them?



And....???


----------



## Lord Of Gondor

The enlightened said:


> The last[and the only] time SA sent it's Fighter jets to save pakistan's a$$ from Ind was way back during '71 that too only because of U.S pressure.
> And I don't think that PK and SA are close enough for SA to reveal secrets about EF to PAF.


Dude,I was was being deliberately ignorant.
If the Rafale had been selected,there would have been OT posts about it being evaluated by PAF in the 90's and it,having no export customers etc.
So now wait for more OT posts about it's lack of A2G capability and it's abysmally low flight hours due to non availability of spare parts etc.

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## The enlightened

@topic
I really hope they go for Rafale.
I mean c'mon people.
It's got sensor fusion, SPECTRA, the battle-tested Hammer AASM, it carries the same amt of payload as MKI and they plan to increase it further, and to top it all,
It looks soooo beautiful.

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## Abingdonboy

If this news is true to well and truly sounds the death knoll for the Rafele beyond 2014.

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## Lord Of Gondor

Abingdonboy said:


> If this news is true to well and truly sounds the death knoll for the Rafele beyond 2014.


They may cut back on the current production rates and try to sustain it until 2020.
The mind boggling prices on the Mirage upgrade and the MICA missiles makes sense now.


----------



## The enlightened

Lord Of Gondor said:


> Dude,I was was being deliberately ignorant.
> If the Rafale had been selected,there would have been OT posts about it being evaluated by PAF in the 90's and it,having no export customers etc.
> So now wait for more OT posts about it's lack of A2G capability and it's abysmally low flight hours due to non availability of spare parts etc.


Btw which A/c are you talking about in the 3rd para.


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## tvsram1992

my last cheer for rafale


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## tvsram1992

wtf i thought climax would be so great


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## Lord Of Gondor

The enlightened said:


> Btw which A/c are you talking about in the 3rd para.


EuroFighter Typhoon.
Quoting Sancho from the MMRCA sticky,


sancho said:


> Simple!
> 
> - higher R&D costs in Europe compared to the US
> - higher exchange rates compared to the Dollar
> - lower production numbers compared to US weapons
> - in terms of MICA IR, was not designed as a SR missile only, but as MR missile with all features of a SR missile
> 
> Most of these reasons applies to any European weapon or product, which makes them more expensive andwhat difficult to export.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You might find these articles interesting:
> 
> 
> 
> Grounded! Almost half of RAF's Typhoon jets unable to fly because they don't have the spare parts to fix them | Mail Online
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RAF strips jets for spare parts: Typhoons torn up for Libya air fleet | Mail Online
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Eurofighter Typhoon: It's EVEN WORSE than we thought ? The Register


----------



## The enlightened

tvsram1992 said:


> wtf i thought climax would be so great


Why are you losing hope over some petty rumours.
Remember about some 2 years ago, how there were 'rumours' about Rafale being kicked out of this competition.


----------



## Abingdonboy

Lord Of Gondor said:


> EuroFighter Typhoon.
> Quoting Sancho from the MMRCA sticky,



Mat ethe articles you have quoted refer to the RAF Typhoons and not all Typhoons in general. In fact all you are highlighting is the dire straights the RAF is in, in terms of budget and supplies. You can't ***** the entire EFT program based on failures by the RAF to properly secure spares. You don't seem to get similar stories about German Typhoons. As IAF has not shortage of $ these days and certainly won't when these birds are inducted and much of the manufacturing will be done in-country IAF shouldn't have any of the same issues.

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## Lord Of Gondor

Abingdonboy said:


> Mat ethe articles you have quoted refer to the RAF Typhoons and not all Typhoons in general. In fact all you are highlighting is the dire straights the RAF is in, in terms of budget and supplies. You can't ***** the entire EFT program based on failures by the RAF to properly secure spares. You don't seem to get similar stories about German Typhoons. As IAF has not shortage of $ these days and certainly won't when these birds are inducted and much of the manufacturing will be done in-country IAF shouldn't have any of the same issues.


I was just providing references to my earlier post,I am not generalizing but merely substantiating my earlier stand.
Note:I hate both the Typhoon and the Rafale,I support only these chics.

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## asad71

Do not forget the Yankee factor. They have tied India under a nuclear deal and some more - so that they benefit from India's major arms purchases. I suspect Eurofighter will come with an American weapons/instrument package. That would bound India not to take major strategic decisions going counter to US interests.

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## GURU DUTT

Typhoon with ASEA radar& american Wepon's + some isrealy electronic wrfare tech man that would really be great news for india


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## Archie

asad71 said:


> Do not forget the Yankee factor. They have tied India under a nuclear deal and some more - so that they benefit from India's major arms purchases. I suspect Eurofighter will come with an American weapons/instrument package. That would bound India not to take major strategic decisions going counter to US interests.



Using them as a possible insurance policy against China , is not exactly against US interest

As Far as Pak is concerned , well our 270 MKI , 68 Mig29smt and 51 Mirage 2000v5 are enough till 2025


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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> Mat ethe articles you have quoted refer to the RAF Typhoons and not all Typhoons in general. In fact all you are highlighting is the dire straights the RAF is in, in terms of budget and supplies. You can't ***** the entire EFT program based on failures by the RAF to properly secure spares. You don't seem to get similar stories about German Typhoons. As IAF has not shortage of $ these days and certainly won't when these birds are inducted and much of the manufacturing will be done in-country IAF shouldn't have any of the same issues.



*Germany: (sorry for the bad google translations)*



> *Euro Fighter remains the Bundeswehr far too often on the ground*
> 
> ...Susceptibility and *stagnant supply of spare parts to reduce the number of training flights* - Procurement of the second tranche could be delayed...



Google Übersetzer


*Austria:*



> Two-thirds of the Euro fighter have lame wings
> 
> 15.02.2010 | 18:50 | Martin Fritzl (The Press)
> 
> Only five combat aircraft are currently operational. The Armed Forces allayed...
> 
> ...That part of the fighter are under maintenance is actually normal in all armies in the world. However, for two-thirds of the aircraft that is rather unusual. *The reason, according to insiders: The delivery of spare parts by the Euro-fighter manufacturer is only very slowly. So you have to build from spare parts of other fighters to keep the others ready to - a form of "cannibalization", which usually takes place at the end of the life cycle, not at the beginning*.



Google Übersetzer


So it's not a problem of the UK alone, but by the complicated spare supply which contains all 4 partner countries to provide certain spares.
India won't build the whole fighter in India, especially not all the spare parts. Just look at the MKI and the reports about asking western suppliers to provide spares instead of Russian.


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## Mughal-Prince

The enlightened said:


> The last[and the only] time SA sent it's Fighter jets to save pakistan's a$$ from Ind was way back during '71 that too only because of U.S pressure.





The enlightened said:


> And I don't think that PK and SA are close enough for SA to reveal secrets about EF to PAF.


 


Abingdonboy said:


> And....???



And its beyond the scope of your imagination ... Please don't bother ...


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## Abingdonboy

princeiftikharmirza said:


> And its beyond the scope of your imagination ... Please don't bother ...



You honestly think your Saudi brothers will come to your aid when you are in need? They won't do anything the US doesn't tell them to. Where we're they in May 2011 when US violated you're sovereignty? Where were they when a CIA agent killed Pakistani citizens? Where we're they when NATO killed 24 of you're soldiers? Where we're they when Pakistan was divided into 2 and Pakistan faced the humiliation of having the largest number of soldiers POWs since WWII? Etc.

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## jha

Abingdonboy said:


> You honestly think your Saudi brothers will come to your aid when you are in need? They won't do anything the US doesn't tell them to. Where we're they in May 2011 when US violated you're sovereignty? Where were they when a CIA agent killed Pakistani citizens? Where we're they when NATO killed 24 of you're soldiers? Where we're they when Pakistan was divided into 2 and Pakistan faced the humiliation of having the largest number of soldiers POWs since WWII? Etc.



Its beyond the scope of his imagination..Dont bother...

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## Kinetic

What media say is actually opposite what happens, the same Livefist said Rafale out but Rafale is one of the finalists, so this is not good. Because I am a supporter of EFT. 

---------- Post added at 08:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:20 PM ----------




asad71 said:


> Do not forget the Yankee factor. They have tied India under a nuclear deal and some more - so that they benefit from India's major arms purchases. I suspect Eurofighter will come with an American weapons/instrument package. That would bound India not to take major strategic decisions going counter to US interests.



India is not bound by any factor, India rejected US fighters. The only country bounded is BD, they have to work for Indian interest and you see that.

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## perplexed

EFT with AESA is going to be deciding factor against the J20s from PLAAF


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## IND151

if this nexws is true its fine. eft is good fighter. hope dat d mod takes decision soon


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## Rajaraja Chola

Well whateva to make IAF good !!
I supported rafale though !


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## sathya

graphican said:


> Good luck India.
> 
> With Pakistan's point of view, its better that India went for EF.



? coz Pak might think about buying rafale but not EFT


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## ILLUMINATO

Maintaining air-superiority would be the key in future wars,ground attack can be taken care of by our strong army and yet to be inducted attack-helis in large numbers.Once we are done with enemy's air power even our tier-2 mig-21s can carry on with deep ground attacks.

EF should be the way to go forward.

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## sathya

^^^ SEAD missions require stealthy bombers..

once that is over even indian airlines can bomb..

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## perplexed

I dont think we have MKIs as a very good air superiority fighter. I mean it is but it has serious problems regarding radar sign. So its better we go for EFT. We can always use Mirage for ground attacks


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## sathya

i am just worried what will happen to LCA 3 engine program.

snecma - kaveri deal, will it go through , or EF 200 will quip or more f 414 gonna continue


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## Jon Snow

ILLUMINATO said:


> Maintaining air-superiority would be the key in future war,ground attack can be taken care of by our strong army and yet to be inducted attack-helis in large numbers.Once we are done with enemy's air force even our mig-21s can carry on with ground attacks.


Actually to achieve air superiority You need to have decent ground attack capabilities - First and foremost there will be SEAD missions, taking out radar installations, SAM batteries and even handheld Stingers can cause a lot of damage. Also air superiority is not achieved by taking out each and every fighter the enemy has - It is achieved by taking out airbases and destroying runways and taking out fighters while they are on the ground. Ground attack is extremely vital for air superiority....
though I say all this I still support the EFT because I believe that with Indian money all their projects which are on backburner will continue and we will recieve the tranch 3b - which will have potent ground attack capabilities and Indian scientists will learn a lot from this experience( they will participate because India will become a member of the consortium).

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## Safriz

sathya said:


> ? coz Pak might think about buying rafale but not EFT



Pakistan cant afford any of them,and doesn't need to,as Chinese versions are equally capable at much lower price and no fear of embargoes.


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## syntax_error

Even if EFT has the lower cost right now....
the final haggling is still left.I'm sure MOD will it with both parties (EFT and RAFALE) and try to lower prices down further.

So we never know what might happen then ... so I dont think there will be any announcement right now .. maybe end of month.... after all the bargaining is over ...


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## syntax_error

Even if EFT has the lower cost right now....
the final haggling is still left.I'm sure MOD will it with both parties (EFT and RAFALE) and try to lower prices down further.

So we never know what might happen then ... so I dont think there will be any announcement right now .. maybe end of month.... after all the bargaining is over ... 

I had posted this in MRCA thread but its more relevant here...


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## ILLUMINATO

sathya said:


> i am just worried what will happen to LCA 3 engine program.
> 
> snecma - kaveri deal, will it go through , or EF 200 will quip or more f 414 gonna continue


I wish snecma - kaveri deal goes through,we should not allow Kaveri development to be killed after so much delay and additional expenses incurred due to that.


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## Safriz

syntax_error said:


> Even if EFT has the lower cost right now....
> the final haggling is still left.I'm sure MOD will it with both parties (EFT and RAFALE) and try to lower prices down further.
> 
> So we never know what might happen then ... so I dont think there will be any announcement right now .. maybe end of month.... after all the bargaining is over ...
> 
> I had posted this in MRCA thread but its more relevant here...



Haggling?

Is this a defence deal or Garage sale?


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## sathya

safriz said:


> Pakistan cant afford any of them,and doesn't need to,as Chinese versions are equally capable at much lower price and no fear of embargoes.



so you trust on chinese baskets wholly.. um?


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## Jon Snow

perplexed said:


> I dont think we have MKIs as a very good air superiority fighter. I mean it is but it has serious problems regarding radar sign. So its better we go for EFT. We can always use Mirage for ground attacks


So a fighter cant be a good Air superiority fighter if it has high RCS?? Better tell the Americans - they have been wasting their money on the F 15s.
On a serious note - the RCS of MKI is not a handicap - yes the enemy fighters will see it coming from far but with the MKI's radar it will see them as well and with the huge payload and longer ranged missile it will fire first - also the MKI has serious ECM capabilities , It will most probably jam any incoming missile - even in the red flag video the guy states that they engaged guns because the MKI was jamming the missiles - and these were modern F 16s and F 15s. 
Also we are upgrading the MKIs from this year onward and will reduce the RCS to a more manageable 3-5m2.
As far as EFT or Rafale are concerned - they are not stealth fighters - load em up and their RCS will shoot up to atleast 1-2m2 if not more(probably more I'm thinking)

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## sathya

ILLUMINATO said:


> I wish snecma - kaveri deal goes through,we should not allow Kaveri development to be killed after so much delay and additional expenses incurred due to that.



mate even that deal is not yet a done deal... still in discussion..
whichever does the best for our engine tech should be selected fast and now..


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## Jon Snow

syntax_error said:


> Even if EFT has the lower cost right now....
> the final haggling is still left.I'm sure MOD will it with both parties (EFT and RAFALE) and try to lower prices down further.
> 
> So we never know what might happen then ... so I dont think there will be any announcement right now .. maybe end of month.... after all the bargaining is over ...


Thats not how it works - we chose L1 now and then price negotiations take place with the L1 only - otherwise whats the point of finding the L1 now - decide which one it is after all negotiations


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## ILLUMINATO

Jon Snow said:


> Actually to achieve air superiority You need to have decent ground attack capabilities - First and foremost there will be SEAD missions, taking out radar installations, SAM batteries and even handheld Stingers can cause a lot of damage. Also air superiority is not achieved by taking out each and every fighter the enemy has - It is achieved by taking out airbases and destroying runways and taking out fighters while they are on the ground. Ground attack is extremely vital for air superiority....
> though I say all this I still support the EFT because I believe that with Indian money all their projects which are on backburner will continue and we will recieve the tranch 3b - which will have potent ground attack capabilities and Indian scientists will learn a lot from this experience( they will participate because India will become a member of the consortium).


Are EFs so impotent that can't even suppress their air-defence ?I won't agree to that no way.No doubt ground attack may be their weak point,but to that extent??

---------- Post added at 10:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:03 PM ----------




Jon Snow said:


> Actually to achieve air superiority You need to have decent ground attack capabilities - First and foremost there will be SEAD missions, taking out radar installations, SAM batteries and even handheld Stingers can cause a lot of damage. Also air superiority is not achieved by taking out each and every fighter the enemy has - It is achieved by taking out airbases and destroying runways and taking out fighters while they are on the ground. Ground attack is extremely vital for air superiority....
> though I say all this I still support the EFT because I believe that with Indian money all their projects which are on backburner will continue and we will recieve the tranch 3b - which will have potent ground attack capabilities and Indian scientists will learn a lot from this experience( they will participate because India will become a member of the consortium).


Are EFs so impotent that can't even suppress their air-defence ?I won't agree to that no way.No doubt ground attack may be their weak point,but to that extent??


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## sathya

su mki radar cross section wont be a disadvantage on home soil than on offense..

so for defense it packs all punch, 

i doubt how rcs reduction will be achieved in super sukhoi.. ( 20 -30% my guess)

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## rai_kamal

20-30 % reduction will be insufficient..Atleast the rcs should be around 5m2 or less,otherwise su-35 would have been good offer..
By the way , happy to hear the EFT is the lowest price bidder...


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## Mirza Jatt

really great if true....


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## sathya

ILLUMINATO said:


> Are EFs so impotent that can't even suppress their air-defence ?I won't agree to that no way.No doubt ground attack may be their weak point,but to that extent??
> 
> su 30 mki is more impotent than EFT in SEAD mission.
> 
> cruize missiles, loitering missiles, stealth aircraft , good attack aircraft r best suited..
> 
> rafale by design better suited attack than EFT, however both r multirole

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## Jon Snow

ILLUMINATO said:


> Are EFs so impotent that can't even suppress their air-defence ?I won't agree to that no way.No doubt ground attack may be their weak point,but to that extent??
> 
> ---------- Post added at 10:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:03 PM ----------
> 
> Are EFs so impotent that can't even suppress their air-defence ?I won't agree to that no way.No doubt ground attack may be their weak point,but to that extent??


The only A2G munitions the EFT is CURRENTLY cleared to carry is the paveway 2/3 - it was supposed to get the ALARM or HARM anti radiation missile but till now it has not been cleared for either - maybe in future it will get the ARMIGER - but thats difficult considering the development has stopped due to lack of funds - the typhoon doesnt have anti shipping missile or cruise missile or anti radiation missile - So yeah pretty difficult to take out enemy air defences with only the paveways - but if india joins the program we will fund its A2G capabilities - The T3B will carry the HARM/ ARMIGER(when it is ready), the taurus, storm shadow cruise missile , paveway 4, harpoon anti ship missile and Brimstone anti armor missile.

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## no_koadsheding_plz

In Soviet Rusia,Bid wins Rafale


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## ILLUMINATO

Jon Snow said:


> The only A2G munitions the EFT is CURRENTLY cleared to carry is the paveway 2/3 - it was supposed to get the ALARM or HARM anti radiation missile but till now it has not been cleared for either - maybe in future it will get the ARMIGER - but thats difficult considering the development has stopped due to lack of funds - the typhoon doesnt have anti shipping missile or cruise missile or anti radiation missile - So yeah pretty difficult to take out enemy air defences with only the paveways - but if india joins the program we will fund its A2G capabilities - The T3B will carry the HARM/ ARMIGER(when it is ready), the taurus, storm shadow cruise missile , paveway 4, harpoon anti ship missile and Brimstone anti armor missile.


I hope tranche 3 turns out true to our expectations after India joins the consortium.This could be decisive factor in it's future marketing and no doubt in harnessing it's true potential.


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## ILLUMINATO

no_koadsheding_plz said:


> In Soviet Rusia,Bid wins Rafale


In Pakistan ,Bid wins F -22.

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## shree835

safriz said:


> Pakistan cant afford any of them,and doesn't need to,as Chinese versions are equally capable at much lower price and no fear of embargoes.



Yes you are correct... Angoor Khatte Hain.

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## sancho

ILLUMINATO said:


> Are EFs so impotent that can't even suppress their air-defence ?I won't agree to that no way.No doubt ground attack may be their weak point,but to that extent??



Yes they are so weak!

Currently they have only 1000lb Paveway LGBs which can be used from a distance of hardly 15km, which obviously rules out any kind of SEAD missions. The partner countries also have not cleared any other A2G weapons yet, although they fixed the order for their T3As several years ago and with latest news of further defence budget cuts in the UK and Italy, chances of expensive upgrades for the EF are very slim.

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## patna_ke_presley

Eurofighter is my Favorite. Great News if it comes true.


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## sathya

rai_kamal said:


> 20-30 % reduction will be insufficient..Atleast the rcs should be around 5m2 or less,otherwise su-35 would have been good offer..
> By the way , happy to hear the EFT is the lowest price bidder...



since only new aircraft is to be upgraded to super su 30mki.. we can expect visible changes but i dont think it ll be significant ,otherwise whole new test flights will have to be conduted. but other packages are awesome.. it extends bhramos range 10 times


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## SpArK

Lowest bidder was recognised the day the bids were opened.

Did they revised the bid in between.




PS: smiley courtesy DeeEffEye

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## ILLUMINATO

sancho said:


> Yes they are so weak!
> 
> Currently they have only 1000lb Paveway LGBs which can be used from a distance of hardly 15km, which obviously rules out any kind of SEAD missions. The partner countries also have not cleared any other A2G weapons yet, although they fixed the order for their T3As several years ago and with latest news of further defence budget cuts in the UK and Italy, chances of expensive upgrades for the EF are very slim.


Can any arrangement between our A2G Brahmos and tranche 3 be made without Russia's objection??


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## sancho

Jon Snow said:


> Actually to achieve air superiority You need to have decent ground attack capabilities - First and foremost there will be SEAD missions, taking out radar installations, SAM batteries and even handheld Stingers can cause a lot of damage. Also air superiority is not achieved by taking out each and every fighter the enemy has - It is achieved by taking out airbases and destroying runways and taking out fighters while they are on the ground. Ground attack is extremely vital for air superiority....



100% agree with this part, especially when we think about a war against an opponent like China, where the prime mission will be to take out the closest air and missile bases with pre-emptive strikes. EF in this case it completelly useless, since it has not a single stand off weapon integrated now or cleared for integration anytime soon. What makes it even more problematic is the fact, that you must develop and integrate CFTs too, because it won't be able to carry enough fuel tanks when it carriers heavy weapons. That obviously makes it even more expensive to make the EF useful for IAF and there are a lot of such costs that has to be added. 
Btw, Armiger is a dead project and can't be revived anymore.



ILLUMINATO said:


> Can any arrangement between our A2G Brahmos and tranche 3 be made without Russia's objection??



Russia has to agree, but even if that's not possible, because EFs centerline station has size restrictions and can carry only certain payloads. It can't even carry Storm Shadow or Taurus there!

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## ILLUMINATO

sancho said:


> Russia has to agree, but even if that's not possible, because EFs centerline station has size restrictions and can carry only certain payloads. It can't even carry Storm Shadow or Taurus there!


In wikipedia they say EF is all ready armed with Tarus having official range in excess of 500k.m.


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## Bl[i]tZ

SpArK said:


> Lowest bidder was recognised the day the bids were opened.
> 
> Did they revised the bid in between.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PS: smiley courtesy DeeEffEye




ha ha SpArK! Have some Miranda 






_Zor ka Jhatka Dhire Se Lage_

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## ILLUMINATO

Sorry ,Double post.


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## Jon Snow

sancho said:


> 100% agree with this part, especially when we think about a war against an opponent like China, where the prime mission will be to take out the closest air and missile bases with pre-emptive strikes. EF in this case it completelly useless, since it has not a single stand off weapon integrated now or cleared for integration anytime soon. What makes it even more problematic is the fact, that you must develop and integrate CFTs too, because it won't be able to carry enough fuel tanks when it carriers heavy weapons. That obviously makes it even more expensive to make the EF useful for IAF and there are a lot of such costs that has to be added.
> *Btw, Armiger is a dead project and can't be revived anymore.*
> 
> 
> 
> Russia has to agree, but even if that's not possible, because EFs centerline station has size restrictions and can carry only certain payloads. It can't even carry Storm Shadow or Taurus there!


So what's gonna replace the HARM - it a 30 year old missile.....


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## sancho

ILLUMINATO said:


> In wikipedia they say EF is all ready armed with Tarus having official range in excess of 500k.m.



Not everything what wiki says is correct, it is expected that Taurus will be integrated into German and Spanish EFs, when the Tornado and F18 needs to be replaced, but with the current financial situation of these countries, they will delay it as long as they can. Btw, if we take EF, we would get range limited versions of Storm Shadow or Taurus.



Jon Snow said:


> So what's gonna replace the HARM - it a 30 year old missile.....



New capabilities and new aircrafts most likely. EF was planned to get better EW capability in future and combined with PGMs like AASM or JDAM it can be used in SEAD roles too. But I would say that armed drones will takeover this role too, less detectable, can be used can be used at high altitudes and even if you loose one, it's better to loose a human crew and a more expensive fighter.

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## rockstarIN

Bl[i]tZ;2482099 said:


> ha ha SpArK! Have some Miranda
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Zor ka Jhatka Dhire Se Lage_



He loves to have thanda with this girl

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## ILLUMINATO

sancho said:


> Not everything what wiki says is correct, it is expected that Taurus will be integrated into German and Spanish EFs, when the Tornado and F18 needs to be replaced, but with the current financial situation of these countries, they will delay it as long as they can. Btw, if we take EF, we would get range limited versions of Storm Shadow or Tarus.


I just wanted to point the weight which could be carried on central pylon of EF.Tarus is no doubt 1000 kg lighter when compared to our Brahmos but no way near to it's carnage capacity,somehow we can look forward to reduce the weight by 500kg more by compromising bit of range,then it would be a killer combo for SEAD ops.What do you think??


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## Gandhi G in da house

what if the saudis allow the Pakistanis access to EF ?


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## rockstarIN

Why can't EF T3 funded jointed by S. Arabia and India? the 2 potential customers who has monies too?

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## SQ8

rockstar said:


> Why can't EF T3 funded jointed by S. Arabia and India? the 2 potential customers who has monies too?



It could be a massive diplomatic coup as well.
There is no harm in trying..


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## illusion8

I kinda knew the EF will go through mainly because of the diplomatic angle - the EF MMRCA deal will help Europe cope with its economic downslide marginally. and the costly Jag upgrades was to pacify the French. Good move by India.


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## rockstarIN

We make a to z of MKI now, what did we earn from it? anything helpful for LCA? or possible AMCA from it?

If ToT nad making the jets here in India is just for economical purpose, whats the use? like our AF chief says, we should do everything to get the things done.


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## SQ8

rockstar said:


> *We make a to z of MKI now, what did we earn from it? anything helpful for LCA? or possible AMCA from it?*
> 
> If ToT nad making the jets here in India is just for economical purpose, whats the use? like our AF chief says, we should do everything to get the things done.



Could have if the LCA had been a continuation of this









Would have great.. No running around for engines..instant compatibility with the fleet.
Tsk.

The EF's ToT would probably help with the electronics part though.


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## sancho

ILLUMINATO said:


> I just wanted to point the weight which could be carried on central pylon of EF.Tarus is no doubt 1000 kg lighter when compared to our Brahmos but no way near to it's carnage capacity,somehow we can look forward to reduce the weight by 500kg more by compromising bit of range,then it would be a killer combo for SEAD ops.What do you think??



It's not only the weight but also the diameter and the length of Brahmos that would be a problem and for SEADs it's an overklill anyway, be it with it's big warhead, or with the high price.

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## Storm Force

Cant wauit til the TYPHOON order is confirmed

The PLANE is an absolute beast 

The very low frontal RCS with massive range of American & european weapons make this a huge THREAT....

Once the captor e AESA is added AND new ramjet meteore BVR ....NOTHING WILL COME CLOSE to this fighter BAR F22

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## Gandhi G in da house

isnt there anyone here who can confirm this with inside sources


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## Abingdonboy

nick_indian said:


> isnt there anyone here who can confirm this with inside sources



Unlikely, the Indian military are usually very tight lipped about their projects so you'd usually go to MoD officials but in this case gieven the sheer size of the project and the publicity they too are being very careful about what they say.


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## Killswitch

Heres hoping India inducts at least 180 of the EF's. The country needs serious numbers considering the neighborhood we are a part of.


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## IndoUS

Both aircraft are good and if EF is the lowest bidder, and the TOT agreement is worth it and if we are getting good partnership in return then the MOD and government should go for it.


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## jha

Eurofighter with Amrikan Weapons ..? When weapons will be Amriki then why not Gripen..?


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## Black Widow

jha said:


> Eurofighter with Amrikan Weapons ..? When weapons will be Amriki then why not Gripen..?




COz grippen is not last two selected fighter..  

---------- Post added at 10:22 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:21 AM ----------




sancho said:


> That might be your personal opionion and even I think that it's good to have some specialised aircrafts too, but that's defenitely now the way the air forces all over the world are handling things now. Every air force is diverting it's fleet from specialised single role fighters to multi role fighters, be it Su 27 Flankers, that now changed to Su 35 and 30 multi role Flankers, or F15 Eagles, that now are Strike Eagles. The improvements of radars, avionics and especially smarter weapons made dedicated aircrafts not important anymore.
> In the past, a strike fighter was good when it can fly low and at lower speeds with good payloads and dedicated radar/avionics (A10 for example), to day even air superiority fighters can carry large loads of bombs and can use them at high speed and high altitudes too. That doesn mean that you can't specialise a platform to do a certain role better (see the Su 34), but it's not necessarily needed anymore and that's why the F35 for example is counted as a multi role fighter and useful in A2A as well, although it's general flight performance is more comparable to older ground attack fighters (not fast, not maneuverable or agile).
> The main difference of the multi role fighters today lies in the design focus, some are designed more for A2A (F22, Pak Fa, EF, Mig 29), some more for A2G (F18), some are more balanced (Rafale, F16).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Because you look at it too complicated! Brahmos capability is actually nothing more than strengthening of the centerline hardpoints, some new wireings and software upgrades. All this is part of the basic MKI upgrade, which every older MKI will go through (remember, overhaul of the airframe, replacing and adding of materials, new avionics and cockpit displays...). So it's not like it's a special thing that only some squads will get, but it's a general upgrade of the entire MKI fleet.
> The advantage of having all MKIs Brahmos capable should be obvious as well, no matter if we use it for land attack at the north, east or western borders, or as an anti ship missile at the coasts, any MKI can use it in these roles from any airbase. IAF will be way more flexible to do these roles, instead of checking first where the next useful fighter is available to use these weapons in a certain region.
> 
> 
> 
> Mig 29s didn't had A2G capability at all and now will be able to use LGBs with LDP and some A2G missiles. However, back to topic.




*You sound logical, but let me talk to some high rank IAF officer. I may get information if you are right... *


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## SpArK

jha said:


> Eurofighter with Amrikan Weapons ..? When weapons will be Amriki then why not Gripen..?



Weapons are mix of european and american and we will procure thousands of weapons and stockpile it.

So chillax.. 


You still mad bro?


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## rockstarIN

jha said:


> Eurofighter with Amrikan Weapons ..? When weapons will be Amriki then why not Gripen..?



Thats my prime concern, Also I heard EF has lots of US parts in it.


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## Black Widow

rockstar said:


> Thats my prime concern, Also I heard EF has lots of US parts in it.



Thats way french were independent of USA, Lets see how india is making the deal, I hope We will make the deal in such a way that it will be unaffected by USA decision..

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## WHITESMOKE

Well, there are alot questions about which we can assume only at present. Further its still rumors about EFT. So better to wait for few more days....


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## jha

SpArK said:


> Weapons are mix of european and american and we will procure thousands of weapons and stockpile it.
> 
> So chillax..
> 
> 
> *You still mad bro*?



Just hate this royal waste of money...


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## sancho

jha said:


> Eurofighter with Amrikan Weapons ..? When weapons will be Amriki then why not Gripen..?



Because the same weapons doesn't make it as capable, however there will be very limited US weapons anyway.


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## Yeti

Black Widow said:


> Thats way french were independent of USA, Lets see how india is making the deal, I hope We will make the deal in such a way that it will be unaffected by USA decision..




Will not be a issue even when the Saudis bought the EF it was cleared by the US it is a non-issue.


Congress OKs Eurofighter Sale to Saudi Arabia - Defense News


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## sancho

Yeti said:


> Will not be a issue even when the Saudis bought the EF it was cleared by the US it is a non-issue.



On the other hand is says something about EF and dependence, if the US congress has to agree to a sale.


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## sancho

> *India: the Eurofighter would be cheaper than the Rafale*
> 
> According to Indian newspaper Mint, the Eurofighter consortium had made &#8203;&#8203;an offer more attractive financially and Dassault Aviation.
> 
> This is one of the first leaks about the Pharaonic tender M-MRCA, which concerns the purchase of 126 combat aircraft in New Delhi to equip its Air Force (Air Force). *To be taken with caution, however, as manufacturers compete will no doubt engage a war of "brainwashing."*
> 
> According to the Indian business paper Mint, the Eurofighter consortium ( EADS , BAE Systems and Italy's Finmeccanica), offering the Typhoon would be the lowest bidder from Dassault Aviation (Rafale). This newspaper, which has a partnership with the Wall Street Journal, was piped by persons familiar of these cases on condition of anonymity. *But the newspaper was unable to cross-check his information*. according to Indian rules, the bidder the lowest bidder is deemed the winner.
> 
> According to Mint, the two manufacturers, even in competition, are likely to be also called by the Defense Ministry on Thursday. *The spokesman of the Ministry of Defence, Sitanshu Kar, for his part refused to comment.*...



Google Übersetzer


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## IND151

@ post number 66 i agree i think miprage upgrade is planned by IAF to give them more A2G capacity. Mgirage should get new engimnce


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## illusion8

nick_indian said:


> isnt there anyone here who can confirm this with inside sources



At the expense of being laughed at, I live in HAL Bangalore and a friend of mine supplies engines and gas turbines to HAL, He mentioned that HAL is gearing up to produce EF in the future.


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## Kazhugu

illusion8 said:


> At the expense of being laughed at, I live in HAL Bangalore and a friend of mine supplies engines and gas turbines to HAL, He mentioned that HAL is gearing up to produce EF in the future.





i always liked rafale


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## Abingdonboy

> Dassault hasn't reacted officially to reports suggesting that the Eurofighter has emerged the lowest bidder in the final arithmetic of the M-MRCA fighter competition, and is unlikely to do so. I'm trying to get word on what they think and if they've heard anything, but it's unlikely they'll say much. Meanwhile, rumours continue to swirl. Oh, and does anyone have the 2012 Dassault calendar (that's Miss February above, the bubble's mine of course) -- it's among the best mil calendars I've seen so far. Have to get my hands on one.
> 
> *The Mint report also said that Dassault and EADS Cassidian representatives had been called for a meeting scheduled for this evening.* Will keep tabs. Could this be the end? (Don't) hold your breath.



Livefist: Dassault Holds Peace On MMRCA Rumours


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## Bl[i]tZ

MOD is also the Suspense Ministry of India.


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## livingdead

We should have got rafale, dont know what political advantage we will get out of EFT.
It is nobody's plane( although superior technologically)


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## The_Sidewinder

Good news. Anyways, Any one of either Dassault Rafale or Typhoon will do. But do it quickly.


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## Jason bourne

Dassault hasn't reacted officially to reports suggesting that the Eurofighter has emerged the lowest bidder in the final arithmetic of the M-MRCA fighter competition, and is unlikely to do so. I'm trying to get word on what they think and if they've heard anything, but it's unlikely they'll say much. Meanwhile, rumours continue to swirl. Oh, and does anyone have the 2012 Dassault calendar (that's Miss February above, the bubble's mine of course) -- it's among the best mil calendars I've seen so far. Have to get my hands on one.

The Mint report also said that Dassault and EADS Cassidian representatives had been called for a meeting scheduled for this evening. Will keep tabs. Could this be the end? (Don't) hold your breath.


Livefist: Dassault Holds Peace On MMRCA Rumours


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## Safriz

So basically Dessault has stopped giving a damn about Indian MMRCA.

Dessault boss man's computer must look like this now 







Soon Eurofighter's Boss man's Computer will look exactly the same

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## IndoUS

At this point even I don't give a damn is to which aircraft the Air Force picks both are great aircraft.


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## joekrish

safriz said:


> So basically Dessault has stopped giving a damn about Indian MMRCA.
> 
> Dessault boss man's computer must look like this now





Yep! So true they are busy upgrading the old roses of our neighbour's.

I TTHINK!!!

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## Bl[i]tZ

safriz said:


> So basically Dessault has stopped giving a damn about Indian MMRCA.
> 
> Dessault boss man's computer must look like this now
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Soon Eurofighter's Boss man's Computer will look exactly the same



The deal is like $20 billion. Just to put in perspective how big that no. is, its 4 times Pakistan's annual defense budget, as big as Pakistan's total federal budget for the year 2011. You might wanna think again!

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## farhan_9909

dessault will now be crying that why nt we decreased the price for PAF.

i heard that PAF was alot interested in Rafale back in 2007.bt due expanse of rafale pak chose j-10B

Rafale will die widow

as UAE is now too after EF

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## Zabaniyah

If Rafale loses this...Rafale will die...

Poor Rafale...*cry*

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## SpArK

Zabaniya said:


> If Rafale loses this...Rafale will die...
> 
> Poor Rafale...*cry*



You mean production lines closed even for France.


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## Black Widow

SpArK said:


> You mean production lines closed even for France.



I agree with him. How many fighter does France need?? 100? 200? This is not a good number for a fighter to continue. The prices will be higher coz of small production.

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## rockstarIN

MMRCA is the life line of Rafale.

Brazil, UAE ..all are just waiting to check the Indian winner.

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## T90TankGuy

dassault was know for its high handedness when it came to price negotiations (case and point the m2k upg, ) they delayed the decisions by quoting such a high figure. 
Brazil was also irritated with them . the UAE in turn told them they need to sell their 60 mirage2k before they got the order. 
eurofighter was always a better choice for us


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## sancho

rockstar said:


> MMRCA is the life line of Rafale.
> 
> Brazil, UAE ..all are just waiting to check the Indian winner.



Not really, because Brazil has simply no money to buy Rafale now, which doesn't change no matter if India buys it or not. Similarly, the UAE don't care about India, because their aims are on getting the most benefits out of France and Dassault, since they don't need to buy a new fighter now.
They have other aims than India has and that's why these competitions are not related with the procurment policies of the countries. The air forces instead will be interested, because the UAE would pay for further upgrades and Brazil or India might integtrate certain indigenous weapons.



Black Widow said:


> I agree with him. How many fighter does France need?? 100? 200? This is not a good number for a fighter to continue. The prices will be higher coz of small production.



286 of which 180 are already ordered and it was just recently confirmed that France will continue to order it and the production line is secured beyond 2020. France unlike some of the EF countries don't have another fighter on option and wants to replace all older fighters with Rafale, that's why further orders are logical. Btw, they pay less per Rafale than the EF partners pay for EF.


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## Zabaniyah

SpArK said:


> You mean production lines closed even for France.



I meant for the export market. So far, not a single export customer got it. 

@Sancho: The UAE have already stated that the Rafale deal is no longer workable. Instead, they are more interested in the Typhoon. 
Double Trouble For Rafale in UAE

Might want to go through the discussions here relating to the Middle East arms market:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...ir-force-now-future-complete-analysis-17.html

http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...-uaes-lead-over-purchase-rafale-fighters.html

The Rafale is just too damn expensive for its class due to limited production and lack of marketing to attract customers.


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## Safriz

Bl[i]tZ;2487087 said:


> The deal is like FICTIONAL $20 billion. Just to put in perspective how FICTIONAL big that no. is, its 4 times Pakistan's annual defense budget, as big as Pakistan's total REAL federal budget for the year 2011. You might wanna think again! AS IAM COMPARING A FICTIONAL MMRCA WITH A REAL PAKISTANI BUDGET



Here here ..i corrected your comment 

You forgot to add the word "Fictional"

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## rockstarIN

sancho said:


> 286 of which 180 are already ordered and it was just recently confirmed that France will continue to order it and the production line is secured beyond 2020. France unlike some of the EF countries don't have another fighter on option and wants to replace all older fighters with Rafale, that's why further orders are logical. Btw, they pay less per Rafale than the EF partners pay for EF.



France may be regretting to withdrew from the consortium fin 80's. Anyways joint production and research is the only way to go forward. Be it EF, F-35 or PAK FA. 

If FAF is getting Rafales in less prices, who are gonna pay for the development costs? French Govt. 

IS this the reason why Dessault is charging others high development cost?


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## SQ8

The ones who are actually enjoying the drama are the UAE Shiekhs..Now they will have the upper hand over a miserable dassault and a desperate french gov.

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## Abingdonboy

farhan_9909 said:


> dessault will now be crying that why nt we decreased the price for PAF.
> 
> i heard that PAF was alot interested in Rafale back in 2007.bt due expanse of rafale pak chose j-10B
> 
> Rafale will die widow
> 
> as UAE is now too after EF



Please, the kind of discount Pakistan would need to afford this plane wouldn't even cover the price of the engines. Not to mention the tiny numbers PAF would order would make it uneconomical for Dassualt to even bother. 


Keep dreaming though.

---------- Post added at 11:00 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:57 AM ----------




safriz said:


> Here here ..i corrected your comment
> 
> You forgot to add the word "Fictional"



I think you have to look up what "fictional" means as this deal is very much a REALITY.


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## GURU DUTT

here im realing yet another snake(rumour in power corridoar's of MOD) whatever the press says but the hard fact is that india will go for Rafale with ASEA & at laterstages kaveri-scema engine, now what?????


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## sathya

in the current scenario, if price diff not much, then whichever aircraft wins will become cheaper after that.

on future orders, india will gain more from eft than rafale..


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## R-DB

-->Do india is in hurry to purchase fighters??no
-->Do india needs political benifits??yes
-->Can india adjust 1 or 2 yrs delay on first squad of mmrca??yes..(since we dont need urgently)
-->Do india need local industry to gain from mmrca??yes..
-->MMRCA is for china,so air dominance is necessary.

these all factors favor eft. and think for a while,for upgrading mirages we paid more than enough.can we afford same for rafale after 10 yrs or more..no.....


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## Secur

Bl[i]tZ;2487087 said:


> The deal is like $20 billion. Just to put in perspective how big that no. is, its 4 times Pakistan's annual defense budget, as big as Pakistan's total federal budget for the year 2011. You might wanna think again!


 And of a country that is 5 times bigger than us ? ... What makes you so proud then ?  Shall we start a comparison of India and China here ?  ... May be helpful to show you your true face ...


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## R-DB

Secur said:


> And of a country that is 5 times bigger than us ? ... What makes you so proud then ?  Shall we start a comparison of India and China here ?  ... May be helpful to show you your true face ...



you are free to bring any country


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## Secur

R-DB said:


> you are free to bring any country


 Moral of my post : " Take Cheap shots " and Get some in turn !


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## Lord Of Gondor

Secur said:


> And of a country that is 5 times bigger than us ? ... What makes you so proud then ?  Shall we start a comparison of India and China here ?  ... May be helpful to show you your true face ...


You are failing to get his point.
He was referring to the magnitude of the deal which is too huge to be neglected.
Remember that the German chancellor even wrote a letter to Dr.Manmohan Singh regarding this and Mr.Sarkozy pitched in for the Rafale and the Mirage-UPG in the televised interview when he was here.


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## Secur

Lord Of Gondor said:


> You are failing to get his point.
> He was referring to the magnitude of the deal which is too huge to be neglected.
> Remember that the German chancellor even wrote a letter to Dr.Manmohan Singh regarding this and Mr.Sarkozy pitched in for the Rafale and the Mirage-UPG in the televised interview when he was here.


 Obviously , they need the money "desperately" for Rafale but still it could be said without unnecessarily bringing Pakistan ...

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## Vasily Zaytsev

Vishal Thaper twited

Twitter

@thaparvishal Vishal Thapar
#MMRCA: Eurofighter rep summoned to MoD today, as competition for 126 fighters enters last lap. Is it for a verdict or a clarification?



Remember he is the one who broke the story of EF and Rafale being shortlisted before anyone else and months before the official announcement.


Keep track of him....

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## Jason bourne

Vasily Zaytsev said:


> Vishal Thaper twited
> 
> Twitter
> 
> @thaparvishal Vishal Thapar
> #MMRCA: Eurofighter rep summoned to MoD today, as competition for 126 fighters enters last lap. Is it for a verdict or a clarification?
> 
> 
> 
> Remember he is the one who broke the story of EF and Rafale being shortlisted before anyone else and months before the official announcement.
> 
> 
> Keep track of him....




livefist Livefist Blog 
On #MMRCA, @thaparvishal says Eurofighter rep summoned to MoD 2day. (EADS & MoD officially deny this, but trying to figure if there's more).


----------



## tvsram1992

Secur said:


> And of a country that is 5 times bigger than us ? ... What makes you so proud then ?  Shall we start a comparison of India and China here ?  ... May be helpful to show you your true face ...


 You decided that ur own country cant even stand in a debate with India in its own forum.


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## tvsram1992

no_koadsheding_plz said:


> In Soviet Rusia,*Bid wins Rafale*


Lol how can bid win rafale


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## Jason bourne

europeon shares hit 5-months high .. looks like traders got the news


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## KS

After all these years can somebody please tell which is better - Rafale or EFT. The more I read about it, the more I get confused.

Where is Sancho and Prateek ?





Jason bourne said:


> livefist Livefist Blog
> On #MMRCA, @thaparvishal says Eurofighter rep summoned to MoD 2day. (EADS & MoD officially deny this, but trying to figure if there's more).



Two reasons - either a heads up that they have won or they have lost.

I am still hoping for the Rafale.


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## anathema

KS said:


> After all these years can somebody please tell which is better - Rafale or EFT. The more I read about it, the more I get confused.
> 
> Where is Sancho and Prateek ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Two reasons - either a heads up that they have won or they have lost.
> 
> I am still hoping for the Rafale.



KS,

I think both EF and Rafale are good in their own terms ..the one thing that is absolutely going for Rafale is - it is a matured and proven platform and by virtue of a single country behind it - is less bureaucratic. Consortium has its own challenges.

Also looks wise , i think i like french ..the mix of all nationalities is just too much for me.


Hope MoD and IAF makes sensible decision. 

Sacnho is pretty much there - Prateek is absconding.

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## rockstarIN

Hopefully the wait is over today..!!


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## sancho

KS said:


> After all these years can somebody please tell which is better - Rafale or EFT. The more I read about it, the more I get confused.
> 
> Where is Sancho and Prateek ?




Advantages Rafale (for India):

- ready
- proven
- easier to induct
- at least 5% cheaper per unit
- cheaper to operate
- technologically more advanced
- high upgrade level and good future potential
- variety of available weapons
- 1 fighter for IAFs and INs needs
- fits perfectly in size and capability to LCA and MKI
- most reliable by long term experience
- best for future co-developments


Advantages EF (for India):

- good A2A capabilities
- very good offset offer including production partnership
- Consortium and partners are highly desperate
- political and economical advantages of 4 countries


The question is what is more important for GoI/MoD, the requirements of our forces or the requirements of the industry, because that might be the important factors!

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## Secur

tvsram1992 said:


> You decided that ur own country cant even stand in a debate with India in its own forum.


 Isn't it obvious that your budget will be higher than us ?  Or are you using some other unique logic ? 

What debate for one though ?


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## The enlightened

anathema said:


> KS,
> 
> I think both EF and Rafale are good in their own terms ..the one thing that is absolutely going for Rafale is - it is a matured and proven platform and by virtue of a single country behind it - is less bureaucratic. Consortium has its own challenges.
> 
> Also looks wise , i think i like french ..the mix of all nationalities is just too much for me.
> 
> 
> Hope MoD and IAF makes sensible decision.
> 
> Sacnho is pretty much there - Prateek is absconding.


How is it a 'matured and proven platform'
And please don't say Libya.
The only thing it proved was Hammer, not Rafale. A F-105 class a/c with Litening-III could have done the job.
It might be more field tested than EF though.


----------



## anathema

The enlightened said:


> How is it a 'matured and proven platform'
> And please don't say Libya.
> The only thing it proved was Hammer, not Rafale. A F-105 class a/c with Litening-III could have done the job.
> It might be more field tested than EF though.



Matured in terms of -
Weapon Integration - Integration with AtoG weapons is ready and available unlike EF which i believe has only Brimstone to count as a single AtoG weapon.
Radar - AESA radar ready & tested. Productionized by 2014. EF - i think we will see this by 2018 (optimistically speaking)
Future upgrades - Engine upgrades , Spectra upgrades , Integration with Meteor already in progress (Gripen and Rafale are ahead in this). By virtue of it being a consortium fighter - it has to take approval every tom and harry present - and you can imagine what's the rate of approval for a cash strapped economy.
Naval fighter ready - its still a paper dream for EF, not that it will matter for MRCA

Proven in both AF and Libya. Yeah you can say that what kind of opposition was present in AF and LIbya. Still Rafale was the first aircraft to go into action - knock out SAM batteries and was ready for Air Interdiction duties if presented.

Eurofighter literally had to struggle just to keep up its flight hours. It had to take assistance from Tornado to perform to AtoG roles , cannibalize to obtain spare parts ..etc. I would be extremely worried with this trend. At the current moment it is a superb AtoA fighter , but thats about it. 

The thing is if India signs up for EF - then it will be sigh for relief for all the partnering nations. THey can offload their quote of Eurofighters onto India, the way Germany or Britan is trying to do !

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## sancho

Zabaniya said:


> @Sancho: The UAE have already stated that the Rafale deal is no longer workable. Instead, they are more interested in the Typhoon.
> Double Trouble For Rafale in UAE



The UAE likes to play with the French and put fuel the media with false infos!

The same was reported about additional F16 B60, F18 Silent Hornet or even the latest F15, at the end it turned to be not true. The importan point is, that they don't have to replace the Mirage, they are doing it only in favour for France and only if they buy them in return. Neither the EF partners, nor the US can do the same and therefor are no serious option for the UAE. They either buy Rafale, or keep the M2K-9s, that's it!




rockstar said:


> France may be regretting to withdrew from the consortium fin 80's. Anyways joint production and research is the only way to go forward. Be it EF, F-35 or PAK FA.
> 
> If FAF is getting Rafales in less prices, who are gonna pay for the development costs? French Govt.
> 
> IS this the reason why Dessault is charging others high development cost?



No they don't and that for obvious reasons! Rafale development was cheaper and is more capable now, than the EF today. They would be dependent on partners that are close to bankrupt and had to fund most of the EF upgrades alone and wouldn't have carrier fighters now.
The lack of exports is a downer in the Rafale project, but otherwise it turned out to be exactly the way it should be, highly capable and advanced, with "reasonable" costs (there are not many twin engine fightes out their that are cheaper to operate).
EF on the other had is "said" to be the most capable and advanced fighter, but it isn't, while the costs exploded way beyond the partners ever planned and since upgrading and operating is so costly non of the partners will fulfill their initial orders.

The development costs are already paid by France, but they are lower than EFs, that's why the latter is still more costly, although way more units were produced.


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## sancho

anathema said:


> unlike EF which i believe has only Brimstone to count as a single AtoG weapon.



No, not even that was integrated and the only chance to get it might be the Saudis paying for it.

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## danger007

i would like to see Typhoon in IAF and RAFALE in IN. there are rumors about the orders could raise to 189 fighter from 126, as it not possible to split the order between typhoon and rafale. I like to see rafale in IN.


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## Rupeshkumar

will there be any announcement today?


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## born

Interesting find.

Grande Strategy


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## sancho

*Rumors*

So as expected, nothing happend yesterday! 

http://twitter.com/#!/livefist/status/157544277453438976


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## sancho

Rupeshkumar said:


> will there be any announcement today?



Twitter


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## prabhakar

*The question is what is more important for GoI/MoD, the requirements of our forces or the requirements of the industry, because that might be the important factors![/*QUOTE]

How can you say that we are compromising when both the planes have been selected by IAF ?


----------



## Hello_10

sancho said:


> Advantages Rafale (for India):
> 
> - ready
> - proven
> - easier to induct
> - at least 5% cheaper per unit
> - cheaper to operate
> - technologically more advanced
> - high upgrade level and good future potential
> - variety of available weapons
> - 1 fighter for IAFs and INs needs
> - fits perfectly in size and capability to LCA and MKI
> - most reliable by long term experience
> - best for future co-developments
> 
> 
> Advantages EF (for India):
> 
> - good A2A capabilities
> - very good offset offer including *production partnership*
> - Consortium and partners are highly desperate
> - political and economical advantages of 4 countries
> 
> 
> The question is what is more important for GoI/MoD, the requirements of our forces or the requirements of the industry, because that might be the important factors!



Please add that Rafale also has already infrastructure of Mirage2000 in India which makes is known platform to IAF. Also, Indian pilots have confirmed that they were always impressed with performance of Rafale w.r.t. SU30MKIs during air shows/ dog fights.
Also, it was always found that EFT won contracts over Rafale mainly because of political reasons as it is made by four EU nations with backing of US also. Like in case of Saudi Arabia who had choice of either USs aircraft or Eurofighter only which also has many USs parts. Rafale never lost to EFT or F16s/ F15s because of its performance, but only because of political reasons. Rafale is definitely a better aircraft than EFT. Even with MMRCA, only the factor to impress four EU nations, being as a partner with them, makes EFT attractive as compare to Rafale.

Rafale is equally balanced with A2A and A2G operations, with having upper side on multi role operations which would be better than Mirage2000 mk2, as claimed by its manufacturers when they were closing production line of Mirage2000. So, if IAF has to go for either Rafale or EFT then they would go for Rafale only. It will always be easy to deal with one country which doesnt have interference of US also. But IAF would try to negotiate with Dassault for becoming partner like how IAF is offered with EFT. Anyhow its looks like Rafale would die if they lose MMRCA contract so better they would accept IAF as a partner for Rafale. It will give IAF independence on future upgrades of Rafale and at the same it will help Rafale to win new customers with publicity of MMRCA, with opportunity to supply this aircraft for IAC-2 also.

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## sancho

Hello_10 said:


> Please add that Rafale also has already infrastructure of Mirage2000 in India which makes is known platform to IAF.



That's what I meant with easier to induct.




Hello_10 said:


> So, if IAF has to go for either Rafale or EFT then they would go for Rafale only.



Probably, but IAF will not decide about MMRCA and the competition is not just to provide a new fighter, but to add new techs and capabilities to Indian industry too, so MoD will have to look at all sides and then decide which offer (not which fighter) is the best and cheapest. 

Recap:



> *MMRCA, Admiral Arun Prakash analysis of Indian military procurements *
> 
> Monday, July 11, 2011
> 
> The Jaguar, inducted in mid-1980s, was a great improvement and could deliver a 4 ton payload to over 300 miles. Todays combat aircraft carry 6-8 tons of lethal weaponry to ranges of over 400 miles and deliver them with pinpoint precision on the target. Such is the accuracy and lethality of smart weapons that a single modern fighter can achieve the same effect in one mission as 15-20 earlier generation aircraft using dumb weaponry. This was amply demonstrated by the Mirage-2000 on Kargil heights in 1999. *The multi-role appellation represents the ability to switch rapidly between interceptor, strike and recce tasks*.
> 
> The IAF had decided, in the early years of the last decade that the logical answer to its problems of obsolescence, attrition and declining strength *was to induct additional numbers of the Mirage-2000*. With a few upgrades, this excellent machine could become the future multi-role aircraft; bridging the gap between the heavy-weight Su-30 and the light-weight Tejas. *It was the MoDs rejection of this proposal that gave birth to the MMRCA project.*
> 
> For the MMRCA offsets to be beneficial to India, they must be selectively chosen *to fill known gaps in key technologies or provide high-end production-engineering skills lacking in our aerospace industry today*
> 
> 
> Having flown both the F/A-18 and the Rafale, I can say that while the former would certainly have met all the IAF requirements competently and economically, *the breathtaking performance of the latter leaves one in no doubt that it is a generation-next machine. The Eurofighter Typhoon, by all accounts, is equally impressive*



Rafale News: MMRCA, Admiral Arun Prakash analysis of Indian military procurements


Rafale is obviously the better fighter for IAF and IN, but the EF partners and consortium are very desperate and looking at how far they bend to offer such a prize, we can expect them to bend similarly at offsets too, which is a strong point for them anyway with BAE and EADS Germany & Spain.
When the French offers a good offset package next to the better fighter and lower costs they win, when the EF offer such a good offset offer to equal the higher costs and less capabilities of the fighter, they can win too.
Personally I think, all the rumors in the media could be placed as well and we are trying to do it like the Saudis did, only the other way around. They used Rafale to lower the price of EF and we might use EF to lower the prize of Rafale. We saw similar before, when rumors about Rafales rejection put pressure on Dassault and France to renegotiate their initial offer. Nothing of that was official, but neither are the rumors at the moment.

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## sudhir007

old news but relevant 


> A Stealthier Rafale?
> Our colleagues at Air & Cosmos report that the French government is funding a demonstration of improved stealth technology for the Dassault Rafale fighter, with a focus on active cancellation techniques. The story itself is not online but is being discussed at the Key Military Forum.
> 
> 
> blog post photo
> Dassault
> 
> Active cancellation means preventing a radar from detecting a target by firing back a deception signal with the same frequency as the reflection, but precisely one-half wavelength out of phase with it. Result: the returned energy reaching the radar has no frequency and can't be detected.
> 
> It's quite as difficult as it sounds. Some reports have suggested that the so called SP-3 or ZSR-62 "radar jamming device" planned in the early days of the B-2 program was an active cancellation system. It did not work and was scrapped in 1987-88. In 2005, Northrop Grumman paid $62 million to settle a False Claims Act case involving the system.
> 
> This may not be the first French attempt to implement AC on the Rafale. At the Paris air show in 1997, I interviewed a senior engineer at what was then Dassault Electronique, about the Rafale's Spectra jamming system. He remarked that Spectra used "stealthy jamming modes that not only have a saturating effect, but make the aircraft invisible... There are some very specific techniques to obtain the signature of a real LO aircraft."
> 
> "You mean active cancellation?" I asked. The engineer suddenly looked like someone who deeply regretted what he had just said, and declined any further comment. (As Hobbes once put it after pouncing on an unsuspecting Calvin: "We tigers live for moments like that."*)
> 
> The fact that a new demonstrator is being contemplated suggests that the technology may not have been up to the job the first time round - but since AC depends on electronics and processing, that picture may have changed. MBDA and Thales, which absorbed Dassault Electronique and is now the prime contractor on Spectra, have since confirmed that they are working on active cancellation for missiles.
> 
> The whole Spectra program has been a major venture, including the construction of four new indoor test ranges, including the colossal Solange RCS range discussed in Ares in 2007. That facility will probably play a major role in the new demonstrator program.


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## sudhir007




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## Jason bourne

Livefist: Countdown To MMRCA?


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## nomi007




----------



## Rajaraja Chola

01/13/2012
Meinhaj Hussain, m.hussain@grandestrategy.com

Bismillah-arrahman-arraheem. GrandeStrategy sources suggest that the Eurofighter Typhoon may in fact be the winner of the long delayed Indian Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) competition. The MMRCA is India's largest single defense deal that seeks to purchase high-end combat aircraft for the Indian Air Force (IAF). The contract is estimated to be worth between 10-15 Billion USD for 126 or more combat aircraft. These aircraft will provide India with a credible boost in air combat capabilities significantly downgrading any advantage the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) may have clawed back over the last decade. 

The contest has been essentially between the Eurofighter Typhoon built by a pan-European consortium which includes EADS, Alenia Aeronautica and BAE Systems, and the Rafale, its French equivalent built by Dassault. It is commonly believed that the Rafale has better air-to-ground, while the Typhoon enjoys superior air-to-air performance although both planes are closely matched. The competition was critical for Rafale because it has yet to secure an export order in the last 10 years. The loss of this competition to the Eurofighter consortium may possibly be fatal to the Rafale securing any major future international contracts. 

The purchase will have a few significant ramifications to Pakistan, the premier air force of the Muslim world. Pakistan's JF-17 fighter is a capable multi-role aircraft but is not optimized for the kind of high-high (high altitude and high speed) BVR (Beyond Visual Range) combat that the future of air combat is increasingly leading towards and the kind of combat the Eurofighter Typhoon is purpose-built to perform. As a result this can provide a capability gap for PAF planners. This is likely to emphasize on more J-10s from China, an aircraft with superior air combat capabilities than the JF-17. 

The Typhoon will also bring in the best platform for employing the MBDA Meteor, a new generation of BVR AAMs that can give an advantage to the IAF against both the PAF and the PLAAF (People's Liberation Army Air Force, or the Chinese air force). When combined with the high-high profile of the Typhoon, this can put lower kinetic energy fighters like the JF-17 at a disadvantage. The view of this author is to develop UCAVs customized for the Pakistani scenario and couple these with two-seater JF-17 Block II/III.

Another possible implication is that France may now be willing to trade weapons with Pakistan and some of the Rafale's technology may find itself to the JF-17. This is an unlikely possibility given the belligerence of Western powers presently towards Pakistan but the issue is not closed as France is known to have done such business in the past. The interest in such trade has multiple and important implications. Most importantly, France may be willing to sell weapons and avionics for an export oriented JF-17 where the customer is not Pakistan but a third country more amenable to the French. Countries like Egypt or Argentina for instance, may prefer a cheaper plane than the Rafale but want Western avionics and weapons. Pakistan may herself be interested in such parts as the excellent MMI (Man-Machine Interface), E/O (Electro/Optical) systems and EW (Electronic Warfare) systems, all of which are top grade subsystems of the Rafale. 

A word of comfort is that the machines are highly expensive to buy and maintain and perhaps a degree more sophisticated than Indian engineers are used to handling. Coupled with a longer delivery timeline, Pakistan or China are unlikely to see these birds operational in significant number until at least 2016. Nevertheless, we have to hand it to the Indians that they have in all probability made the right choice.

Please note, the results of the MMRCA have not been officially announced, this article is based on unofficial channels and must be taken as speculative and not official. However, I have good grounds to believe it is true. - 01/13/2012

Grande Strategy


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## SQ8

Wow.. check the tone of jingoism in that article in an effort to play down such an important development.

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## Abingdonboy

^^ precisely- they are getting this platform but we shouldn't be bothered. Yeah right. Tbh this article is filled with sensationalism and straight out lies. "any advantages built up by the PAF over the past few years"?? This article somehow completely fails to mention the fleet of MKI which could easily manage the 50 odd F-16s of PAF not to mention the MIG-29UPG/M2K-9 which would also easily handle any ac in the PAF. Similarly saying Indian engineers won't be able to handle the EFT? They are doing such a job on the advanced MKI so EFT should be no problem. Btw this deal isn't the making of the IAF, it will only supplement the existing capability of the IAF.

And tbh I'd say the RSAF was by far the most advanced Muslim AF.

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## tjpf

my o my what an article

1.indian engineers not capable
2.any advantages built up by the PAF over the past few years!!!!!!!!!
3.Another possible implication is that France may now be willing to trade weapons with Pakistan and some of the Rafale's technology may find itself to the JF-17

wow

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## SQ8

tjpf said:


> my o my what an article
> 
> 1.indian engineers not capable
> 2.any advantages built up by the PAF over the past few years!!!!!!!!!
> 3.*Another possible implication is that France may now be willing to trade weapons with Pakistan and some of the Rafale's technology may find itself to the JF-17*
> 
> wow



Not happening at all at any point in the future.

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## danger007

Now it is time for Typhoon. poor typhoon fellow members will shot down typhoon here in PDF easily and regularly. 

BY the way when will the final winner will be announced???


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## tjpf

Santro said:


> Not happening at all at any point in the future.



hope not


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## Zabaniyah

LMAO. Just literally loling


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## YouGotRouged

I'm pretty sure everyone knows how much the French jack up their prices and would consider that in any future dealings.


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## Capt.Popeye

Santro said:


> Wow.. check the tone of jingoism in that article in an effort to play down such an important development.



But that is what Grande Strategy, Rupee News, Sajjad Shaukat and others of that ilk have to do all the time. Though I will not hold it against them. They have to pander to a certain constituency to keep getting read and bankrolled. And this kind of thing happens across all borders. Bless them all. 


p.s. I seemed to have forgotten to "honorably mention" a certain guy in a funny red cap.
But compared to these gents, he really seems "intellectually challenged".


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## SQ8

> The view of this author is to develop UCAVs customized for the Pakistani scenario and couple these with two-seater JF-17 Block II/III



Sure dude.. where are those spare billions we have stashed away??
Oh yes.. the swiss bank accounts.. if some estimates(read PTI) are to be kept in play than there are a hundred gazillion dollars of Pakistani money in there.. we could bail out the US if that money comes back to Pakistan.
what other sources of money would this guy want.

The PAF is a good AF.. but neither it or the RSAF are the best in the Muslim world(only if you count being declared as "Islamic")
The best AF of a Muslim majority country is the TuAF.. their training and evolved combat doctrine matches their equipment.

---------- Post added at 11:35 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:34 AM ----------




tjpf said:


> *hope not*



Both you and quite a few PAF officers think the same with regards to that issue.

---------- Post added at 11:37 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:35 AM ----------




Capt.Popeye said:


> But that is what Grande Strategy, Rupee News, Sajjad Shaukat and others of that ilk have to do all the time. Though I will not hold it against them. They have to pander to a certain constituency to keep getting read and bankrolled. And this kind of thing happens across all borders. Bless them all.
> 
> 
> p.s. I seemed to have forgotten to "honorably mention" a certain guy in a funny red cap.
> But compared to these gents, he really seems "intellectually challenged".



We all have our Pran Chopra's.. 
Zaid Hamid would have advocated enlisting the help of the AjAF.. Ill give you a hint..the J stands for Jinns.

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## MZUBAIR

Well, I dont think India would be able to descide anything before 2015......


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## Emmie

Don't write when you're drunk..


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## Abingdonboy

MZUBAIR said:


> Well, I dont think India would be able to descide anything before 2015......



Within next 1 month guaranteed. And contract stipulates an entire SQD has to be delivered off the shelf within 36 months of greement so ~Q1 2014


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## SpArK

more predictions.. it aint over until its over.

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## Yeti

poor article just bits put together for show


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## SQ8

SpArK said:


> more predictions.. it aint over until its over.



You sound like Borat hoping that Pamela is still a virgin..
The french have lost this round.. But I suspect that they may get a "pacifier" order for the strategic forces command or something.


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## Nirvana

*Countdown To MMRCA?*

We're square in the time window now for an announcement on the M-MRCA competition. The last ten days have been thick with rumours of a Eurofighter victory (the company has wisely stayed away from comment). It's an incredibly delicate situation now. Last night, Reuters Aero tweeted saying the two parties were called for a meeting, but that it was unclear if this pertained to a decision or an update. The tweet appeared to draw its essence from an earlier tweet in the day by Newsx defence editor Vishal Thapar, who claimed that only Eurofighter representatives had been called for a meeting. He similarly wondered in his tweet if this had been for a "verdict or clarification". Now, unless this meeting was hardcore top-secret, my information is that no representatives of either company were summoned to any meeting yesterday (Thursday, Jan 12). My sources at both vendor companies and the MoD said there was no meeting, but that it was expected "soon". But this is hardly important. Assuming that the meeting didn't in fact happen, it is after all expected to happen at any time.

The sense I get is the government has until Republic Day (Jan 26) to declare the lowest bidder --* if it wants to, that is. After that, the country enters a phase of an elaborate series of crucial state elections that bring with them their own political sensitivities and code of conduct guidelines. The sense I get, therefore, is that if the government intends to make an announcement this month, it has to be in the next 10-odd days. Otherwise, it could drift for months as the establishment's mind gets diverted. As always, stay tuned.*


Livefist


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## Capt.Popeye

Santro said:


> You sound like Borat hoping that Pamela is still a virgin..
> The french have lost this round.. But I suspect that they may get a "pacifier" order for the strategic forces command or something.



HeHeHeh, Now you're on to something! 
An' I don't mean Borat and Vergins'.

But part of the "pacifier" bit seems to have been already dished out.


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## SQ8

Capt.Popeye said:


> HeHeHeh, Now you're on to something!
> An' I don't mean Borat and Vergins'.
> 
> But part of the "pacifier" bit seems to have been already dished out.



A long protracted and overpriced "pacifier" if you ask me.. but that is the price of being a democracy with its checks and balances.


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## janon

Santro said:


> A long protracted and overpriced "pacifier" if you ask me.. but that is the price of being a democracy with its checks and balances.



The additional scorpene subs may also be part of a pacifier - if indeed, these rumours of EF winning are true.


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## YouGotRouged

Rafale gets selected for MMRCA 






Waiting for MMRCA decision





After MMRCA decision

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## DrSomnath999

this is the most hopeless article i have ever read in my foruming career ,i think this article should be moved to funny & stupid from around the world section of this forum

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## Laughing_soldier

> The purchase will have a few significant ramifications to Pakistan, t*he premier air force of the Muslim world.*


Saudis have Eurofighter and F-15E. UAE has F-16 block 60 and Mirage-2009. Malaysia has Su-30MKM. Do not forget Turkey. Now what is he talking about? 



> The view of this author is to *develop UCAVs customized for the Pakistani scenario* and couple these with two-seater JF-17 Block II/III.






> These aircraft will provide India with a credible boost in air combat capabilities significantly downgrading *any advantage the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) may have clawed back over the last decade. *



Which advantage he is talking about?

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## Manas

Santro said:


> Wow.. check the tone of jingoism in that article in an effort to play down such an important development.



Kya yaar,
this has to be one of the the least jingoist blog i've read dealing indo-pak military scenario written by a Pakistani.


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## Capt.Popeye

DrSomnath999 said:


> this is the most hopeless article i have ever read in my foruming career ,i think this article should be moved to funny & stupid from around the world section of this forum



The guy's got to make a living too, so he has to write like this. And he has an audience to even read his stuff.
Just as that dude in the "funny red cap" has people waiting to listen on to his outpourings. Sure is a crazy world.


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## DrSomnath999

Capt.Popeye said:


> The guy's got to make a living too, so he has to write like this. And he has an audience to even read his stuff.
> Just as that dude in the "funny red cap" has people waiting to listen on to his outpourings. Sure is a crazy world.


haa ,haa yes ....yess but excuse me popeye 
which dude bTW u r talking


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## Polemos

> which dude bTW u r talking



King Zaid Hamid the magnificent

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## T90TankGuy

amazing what one can come up with when they need to play down achievement of others. (have to call the selection an achievement , at one point i thought i would not see this happen in my lifetime.)


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## TOPGUN

Too many damn trolls having a blast here haters to the extreme unreal give it a rest guys don't you people have anything better to do in life then come on this site talk s__t just rem you are on a Pakistani site not a indian one. Which ever fighter india chooses its good for them and best of luck but no need to talk rubish about PAF it is a good AF and you all know it i mean really its getting old now and all this disrespect and hate towards our nation and armed forces won't be tolerated at all cost stop this BS .


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## Safriz

Indian MMRCA in one picture....


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## Capt.Popeye

Polemos said:


> King Zaid Hamid the magnificent




Yeah thats the one. And he plans to conquer Delhi. Riding a horse. Even he has to make a living. So he spouts off and some people listen to him doing so. Hence he is known as an analist.


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## metro

oww.. i always wanted this aircraft to win the contract..


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## Peregrine

This is like the Gazillionth thread on MMRCA.

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## Banned.Member

safriz said:


> Indian MMRCA in one picture


 


i think u forget "succes"
Indeed we shall grasp it at any cost


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## sancho

prabhakar said:


> *The question is what is more important for GoI/MoD, the requirements of our forces or the requirements of the industry, because that might be the important factors![/*QUOTE]
> 
> How can you say that we are compromising when both the planes have been selected by IAF ?



Sorry, missed your post. 

Because IAF have to compromise in terms of capability if MoD selects EF, until we paid a lot of money to make it more multi role capable and besides money that requires time! To be as capable as Rafale F3+ by the end of the year, the EF needs at least till 2018!

- 250Kg LGB addition is on the way
- AESA radar demonstrator only by 2013
- AESA radar with A2A modes only from 2015 onwards
- CFTs must be developed to use bunker busters or cruise missiles 
- PGM or ARM must be added to do SEAD 
- Anti ship missile must be added for maritime attack 
- EWS must be upgraded 
- recon pod must be added


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## WAR-rior

TOPGUN said:


> Too many damn trolls having a blast here haters to the extreme unreal give it a rest guys don't you people have anything better to do in life then come on this site talk s__t just rem you are on a Pakistani site not a indian one. Which ever fighter india chooses its good for them and best of luck but no need to talk rubish about PAF it is a good AF and you all know it i mean really its getting old now and all this disrespect and hate towards our nation and armed forces won't be tolerated at all cost stop this BS .



Shaant gadadhaari bheem. Shaant. take a chill pill. 

these replies are for the article and not the air force per se.


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## Storm Force

Typhoon would be ideal to take on PLAAF over the Himlayers ie high altitude FAST AGILE long range BVR FIGHTER to take on chinease flankers & FC20 IN LARGE nos. The combo over SU30MKI & TYPHOON. would be nightmare even for hundreds of J11 SU30 J10... in any iaf v plaaf war INDIAS role will be pure defense in nature 

For PAF v IAF is all RAFALE territory. The french fighter is front foot strike. steath and electronic warefare at low levels delivering devastating strike punches in a OFFENSIVE WAR. 

For strking at PAF deep into PAK hinterland the RAFALE & SU3OMKI combo wud be deadly... 

which is mmrca for dealing with china threat or PAF war situation.

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## Pfpilot

It should be really interesting as to how the Su-30MKI and Eurofighter co-exist. Essentially the IAF chose the aircraft that most closely replicates the capabilities of the sukhois and has the least to offer in terms of multirole capability. Ideally, the Rafale would have been the better option, but inability of the French to offer anything at a price, even remotely close to market value, has resulted in both India and France ending up with less than optimal results. 
Having said that, I believe the Eurofighter to be the most advanced and capable aircraft of the bunch under consideration, but its strength lies in it's air to air capabilities. The IAF is going to be a very "air superiority heavy" fighting force for the foreseeable future, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see the IAF looking for a more dedicated strike aircraft in the next few years.


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## JonAsad

MMRCA is becoming a Hoax-


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## YouGotRouged

Pfpilot said:


> It should be really interesting as to how the Su-30MKI and Eurofighter co-exist. Essentially the IAF chose the aircraft that most closely replicates the capabilities of the sukhois and has the least to offer in terms of multirole capability. Ideally, the Rafale would have been the better option, but inability of the French to offer anything at a price, even remotely close to market value, has resulted in both India and France ending up with less than optimal results.
> Having said that, I believe the Eurofighter to be the most advanced and capable aircraft of the bunch under consideration, but its strength lies in it's air to air capabilities. The IAF is going to be a very "air superiority heavy" fighting force for the foreseeable future, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see the IAF looking for a more dedicated strike aircraft in the next few years.



Agreed on the A2A bit, though supposedly the A2G tech bit is in the maturing stage, it would be interesting to see how that turns out. Personally I'd love the IAF to have dedicated squadrons of Strike Eagles or Fullbacks for the A2G role, but then again, if wishes were fishes......


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## sancho

> *No decision yet for $11 bn India fighter jet deal*
> 
> 14 Jan, 2012, 0620 hrs IST, Reuters
> 
> India has no timetable for the hotly awaited decision to award its $11 billion fighter jet deal, a defence ministry official said on Friday, and he denied reports that the government had contacted the constructors...





> ReutersAero ReutersAerospaceNews
> 
> *Indian spokesman is denying a report that #Eurofighter won #MMRCA on price as "completely wrong"* - the wait continues.. // #Rafale



Twitter


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## sancho

@ Storm Force

That's a strange conclusion, especially since you pointed out the right things:

EF =


> high altitude FAST AGILE long range BVR FIGHTER


 => just like MKI! 

So adding the same capabilities agains PLAAF won't make IAF more capable, especially when we take to account the numerical superiority as you did, because IAF won't go on 1 on 1 fights against them. You need to take the fighters out "*before*" they take off, to even the chances, therfore deep strikes against their air bases are important and in this field Rafale is clearly superior to EF, like you mentioned as well:



> The french fighter is front foot strike. steath and electronic warefare at low levels delivering devastating strike punches in a OFFENSIVE WAR.


 
PAF on the other hand is numerically and technologically behind IAF anyway and most main targets are in close distance, so even a less multi role capable EF would be useful providing CAS to ground forces. That's why it will be less of a problem that EF is not as capable and developed like Rafale against PAF, than it would be against PLAAF and since MMRCAs are primeraly meant for fighting Chinese forces, the advantages Rafale offers today are tactically more important.

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## sancho

> *Rafale Support Costs Reduced as Thales Signs New Contract*
> 
> January 13, 2012, 10:55 AM
> 
> Thales signed a fixed-price availability contract with the French ministry of defense for support of the Rafale fighter. The company is the last of the three big Rafale contractors to agree to a long-term partnership deal for support. Dassault signed a 10-year agreement in 2008, and engine supplier Snecma followed with a five-year agreement in 2010...
> 
> ...Merry Michaux, the company&#8217;s managing director for military support, said the new contract&#8217;s &#8220;innovative concepts and collaborative working methods...*will make a significant contribution to optimizing availability of the Rafale fleet and bringing down the aircraft&#8217;s cost per flying hour*.&#8221; Thales said it would propose similar contracts for other equipment types and aircraft...



Rafale Support Costs Reduced as Thales Signs New Contract | Aviation International News


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## SQ8

sancho said:


> PAF on the other hand is numerically and technologically behind IAF anyway and most main targets are in close distance, so even a less multi role capable EF would be useful providing CAS to ground forces. That's why it will be less of a problem that EF is not as capable and developed like Rafale against PAF, than it would be against PLAAF and since MMRCAs are primeraly meant for fighting Chinese forces, the advantages Rafale offers today are tactically more important.



I dont think you even need the MMRCA against the PAF.
IAF's "second line" forces are enough.. such as the Jaguars, M2K's and Mig-29's.. given a punch up by the MKI's.
The MMRCA's can sit quietly at the side for the PLAAF.

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## sancho

Santro said:


> I dont think you even need the MMRCA against the PAF.
> IAF's "second line" forces are enough.. such as the Jaguars, M2K's and Mig-29's.. given a punch up by the MKI's.
> The MMRCA's can sit quietly at the side for the PLAAF.


That's a different point (that I purposly left out), I was only talking about the capabilities of EF and Rafale in relation to the tactical scenarios in hypothetical wars against Pakistan or China.
But yes and IAF is not upgrading these fighters with a lot of punch for no reason. All Mig 29 squads are now even concentrated towards western borders, which gives operational advantages, but also says something about who they might fight.

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## SQ8

sancho said:


> That's a different point (that I purposly left out), I was only talking about the capabilities of EF and Rafale in relation to the tactical scenarios in hypothetical wars against Pakistan or China.
> But yes and IAF is not upgrading these fighters with a lot of punch for no reason. All Mig 29 squads are now even concentrated towards western borders,* which gives operational advantages, but also says something about who they might fight.*



Exactly.. in a way if the IAF makes a statement by keeping the MMRCA away from the west, it would break any (even if feeble) attempt by Pakistan to suggest that the west is equipping India for war against Pakistan.
The "fame" of the MMRCA deal then would continue to focus on being an upgrade of India's abilities.
While the other updates to its fangs against its western foe will never be perceived as threatening.

Moreover, the sort of battlezone India may have to face in the north is a lot more difficult, requiring much more out of a strike asset such as range and the ability to fight in a dense air defense ground environment.
Compared to what is waiting north.. the western border is a cakewalk.. and best left to the less capable(but more than the threat from the west) equipment.

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## sancho

Santro said:


> The "fame" of the MMRCA deal then would continue to focus on being an upgrade of India's abilities.
> While the other updates to its fangs against its western foe will never be perceived as threatening.



The problem is this "fame" makes MMRCA look like much more as it is, when you look at it from IAF point of view, it's nothing else than a modernisation of the fleet, just like the upgrades of M2K or Mig 29, the difference is only, that they can't upgrade the Mig 21s anymore and therefor has to replace them. So when we consider the upgrades just as a modernisation and not a threat to Pakistan, we should do it with the few MMMRCA squads that will replace some Mig 21 on western borders too. But that's not like the public takes it and that's not like the forces will present it to the public (Indian forces as well!), because only when there is a certain fear, they can ask for more weapons and techs. The same reason why there are always news in Indian media or interviews with Indian defence officials when PAF gets F16s or JFT, although that's also just part of their modernisation plans.


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## Yeti

No decision yet for $11 bn India fighter jet deal - The Economic Times


India has no timetable for the hotly awaited decision to award its $11 billion fighter jet deal, a defence ministry official said on Friday, and he denied reports that the government had contacted the constructors. 

Two European contenders are left in the race to sell India 126 fighter jets, in what will be one of the world's biggest arms contracts, and help revamp the country's creaking defence equipment in line with its rising global clout. 

"We don't know when the announcement is going to happen, so there is no point speculating when it will happen," the official, who did not wish to be named, told Reuters. 

Still in the fray are Eurofighter, which makes the Typhoon fighter jet and is a four-nation consortium of EADS, representing Germany and Spain, Britain's BAE Systems and Italy's Finmeccanica. 

Their competitor is France's Dassault, which makes the Rafale plane. American, Russian and Swedish bids were rejected in April last year. 

Earlier this week some sections of the Indian media carried a report that the Eurofighter Typhoon may have emerged as the lowest bidder and that representatives of the contractors would have been called by the defence ministry on Thursday. 

The official said that no representative of any company had been called by the government. 

The government opened the bids of the two competitors in November 2011. It was expected to take about two to three weeks to pick a winner.


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## rockstarIN

One of the most important point is left out here in case of Rafale, which is the weapon package..

As per M2k upgrade deal we are paying 1.9 million Euros per MICA missile, that too for 450 nos for 52 M2ks.

Means 8.7 missiles for one M2k, so given the same equation we need 1090 missile for Rafale...means $2.5 billion only required for BVR missiles apart from any other a2g weapons.


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## SQ8

sancho said:


> But that's not like the public takes it and that's not like the forces will present it to the public (Indian forces as well!), because only when there is a certain fear, they can ask for more weapons and techs. The same reason why there are always news in Indian media or interviews with Indian defence officials when PAF gets F16s or JFT, although that's also just part of their modernisation plans.



And its the sum of all these fears that is the key to why we are here..
However, the MMRCA will bring a Massive(if there is an understatement) jump to the IAF's capability.. vis a vis China.
India may not be able to match it for sheer numbers even if it wanted to, but for simple comparison there is NOTHING that China holds now that can compete in the sophistication level of either of the MMRCA contenders.
And this may trigger a soft spot, but even the MKI falls short when it comes to the "_completeness_" of both the EF and Rafale.
Although here I would rather give Rafale the edge as it is more of a "_complete_" package than the Ef when it comes to the ability to carry out missions.. *CAP,SWEEP,CAS,STRIKE,SEAD,ESCORT,ANTI-SHIP,BDA,INTERDICTION* and probably more.
The EF promises these capabilities, but has yet to deliver.

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## sancho

rockstar said:


> One of the most important point is left out here in case of Rafale, which is the weapon package..
> 
> As per M2k upgrade deal we are paying 1.9 million Euros per MICA missile, that too for 450 nos for 52 M2ks.
> 
> Means 8.7 missiles for one M2k, so given the same equation we need 1090 missile for Rafale...means $2.5 billion only required for BVR missiles apart from any other a2g weapons.



Both MMRCAs will most likely use METEOR as BVR missile, which makes the weapon procurement even more expensive, since it will be costly at the begining. On the other side, the M2Ks will be upgraded to be in service for anothe 10 years or so, but the weapons will have a longer life and Rafale is the only option to use them. That means Rafale benefits from this procurment for the Mirage, while the EF won't and you need to procure a whole new weapon package for it.
These costs will be part of MoDs lifecycle cost calculations, just like the costs per hour, costs for spares or fuel consumption. The results then will be one part of the further calculation to find the L1.




Santro said:


> And this may trigger a soft spot, but even the MKI falls short when it comes to the "_completeness_" of both the EF and Rafale.



I wouldn't be so sure about this, because we don't know the actual content of the MKI upgrade. Technically, it can be very competitive to the MMRCAs, performancewise too, it's only downside is it the RCS, which can be reduced by design only to a certain extend. In multi role capability or completeness, only the Rafale is comparable, while the EF will be outclassed by far!


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## SQ8

sancho said:


> I wouldn't be so sure about this, because we don't know the actual content of the MKI upgrade. Technically, it can be very competitive to the MMRCAs, performancewise too, it's only downside is it the RCS, which can be reduced by design only to a certain extend. In multi role capability or completeness, only the Rafale is comparable, while the EF will be outclassed by far!



As such we have yet to see the MKI's abilities demonstrated or displayed when it comes to its air to ground capabilities.
Dumb bombs are fine..and the Brahmos will be an excellent standoff asset.
But where it comes to the array of missions I laid out previously.. the MKI cannot compete with the Rafale or even the EF in variety.

As far as RCS is concerned, hang a couple of Missiles on either MMRCA and the RCS there will shoot up as well.
Possibly off topic but the MKI could go the way of the F-15SE where it comes to stealth enhancements.

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----------



## Gandhi G in da house

Santro said:


> I dont think you even need the MMRCA against the PAF.
> IAF's "second line" forces are enough.. such as the Jaguars, M2K's and Mig-29's.. given a punch up by the MKI's.
> The MMRCA's can sit quietly at the side for the PLAAF.



Now this is a trap .


----------



## praveen007

*Eurofighter Typhoon &#8211; Demon or Lemon? | idrw.org*
.
.





.
.
Eurofighter Typhoon &#8211; Demon or Lemon
*part - 1*
The RAF&#8217;s new Eurofighter Typhoon has the
distinction of being the most controversial
European combat aircraft since the stillborn
TSR.2. Lauded by its proponents and trashed by
its opponents, the aircraft seems to have an
extraordinary ability to generate public argument.
What is all the more curious is that much of the
hostile coverage it has received is factually
wrong, but by the same token much of the pro-
Eurofighter argument we see is no less dubious.
What is the reality? Is the Eurofighter Typhoon an
exceptional combat aircraft, or is it an
anachronism unworthy of production?
In this month&#8217;s feature we will attempt to strip
away the emotive hype and take a closer look at
the strengths and weaknesses of this aircraft.
.
.
*The Eurofighter Typhoon &#8211; A Brief History :- *
The genesis of the RAF Typhoon lay in the early
seventies AST.396 requirement for a STOVL light
ground attack fighter intended to replace the
Jaguar and Harrier. This requirement was
abandoned in favour of the AST.403 specification
for a multirole fighter with similar capabilities to
the emerging US F-16 and F/A-18. The STOVL
requirement soon disappeared since neither
Germany nor France saw any such need and
they were the most likely teaming partners for a
project too big for the UK industry to tackle alone.
The objective thus became the replacement of the
RAF Jaguar and Phantom FGR.2. With Germany
seeking a highly agile F/RF-4F/E replacement, and
France seeking a Jaguar replacement, AST.414
was created.
The European Combat Aircraft (ECA) study group
was formed, and by 1979 a joint BAe-MBB
proposal for the European Combat Fighter (ECF)
presented. With Dassault joining the BAe-MBB
consortium, a twin engine delta canard was
agreed as the preferred configuration. By 1981 the
ECF collapsed, since the French wanted a fighter
small enough to operate from their aircraft
carriers.
Concurrently the national manufacturers worked
on their own studies, BAe the P.110, MBB the
TKF-90 and Dassault the ACX (which became the
Rafale).
In April 1982 a new team was formed comprising
the former Panavia Tornado players, and the
extant design studies were merged into the Agile
Combat Aircraft (ACA). To prove the concepts
proposed in the ACA, the UK funded the
Experimental Aircraft Program (EAP), the other
two governments not coming to the party.
Supported by UK government funding and
industry funds from all three countries, the EAP
first flew in August, 1986. The EAP demonstrator
flew until 1991, logging 191.3 hours of total flight
time.
European air forces continued to show interest in
the idea of a common European design, and in
late 1983 a common European requirement for
the Future European Fighter Aircraft (FEFA soon
changed to EFA) was defined with the UK, France,
Germany, Italy and Spain participating. The EFA
was to be a highly agile twin engine, single seat
fighter with STOL capabilities. Its role was to be
BVR counter air combat, short range air
superiority over the battlefield, while a respectable
strike capability would be provided.
The influences of the period were quite evident.
The Soviets were fielding the Su-27S and MiG-29,
during what was to be their final surge in the Cold
War arms race. Europe&#8217;s BVR air defences and air
superiority hinged on the availability of USAF
F-15As based in Germany and Holland, while
most European air forces flew the agile but day-
VFR F-16A. Germany and Britain flew tired F-4s of
various vintages, and France the Mirage F.1 and
2000. The FEFA reflected these pressures, and
was clearly intended to provide a smaller and
cheaper European BVR capable substitute for the
then expensive F-15, in numbers competitive with
the F-16, with enough multirole capability to
support the dedicated strike assets in any NATO
vs Warpac contingency.
It was a European solution to a European
scenario. The nearest comparison to the teen
series would be an F/A-18 class multirole fighter
with the BVR capabilities and agility of an F-15.
The USAF replaced their Phantoms with the
longer ranging, agile BVR F-15, whereas the USN
replaced theirs with smaller and lighter F/A-18,
compromising top end BVR performance in
favour of numbers and strike capability. The RAF
and Luftwaffe, the leaders in the EFA, rolled the
equivalent of the USAF and USN Phantom
replacements into a single F/A-18 sized airframe.
The question an Australian observer might ask is
why not buy a mix of F-15s and F/A-18s off-the-
shelf? This would have been unthinkable to the
Europeans since they would lose the design
expertise and manufacturing base the Eurofighter
promised, as well as the massive investment by
then sunk into the program, the production base
built up for the Panavia Tornado, and concede the
future fighter market to the US.
By 1984 the extant divisions between the French
and the remaining players surfaced again, over
carrier compatibility. The French wanted a 19,000
lb aircraft (between the F-16 and F/A-18) and the
British a 24,255 lb aircraft (F/A-18 class empty
weight). A compromise 21,000 lb weight was
agreed upon. The French also sought design
leadership, 50% of total workshare, control of the
umbrella company and exports. A schism arose
between the French and the other players and the
EFA collapsed.
August 1985 saw the UK, Germany and Italy
decide to resurrect the program and Spain and
France were invited to join. Spain did, France
went solo with the Rafale. By June 1986 the
Eurofighter Jagdflugzeug GmbH company was
formed, and in September 1986, Eurojet Turbo
GmbH was formed to design and build the
engine. The ECR-90 radar was awarded to GEC
Ferranti in the UK.
The RAF EFA requirement was SRA.414, which
sought a lightweight twin turbofan BVR and close
combat fighter, with a secondary strike capability.
The RAF sought 250 aircraft, the Luftwaffe 250,
Italy 165 and Spain 100.
The EFA was in trouble again by 1992, under
threat from the &#8220;peace dividend&#8221; expectations of
European parliaments. Germany threatened to
pull out altogether, after initially chopping
numbers to 140, while Italy and Spain reduced
the size of their planned buys. After much political
bickering, the programme survived with revised
build numbers, but serious delays were incurred.
Reports suggest that the F-22 was proposed to
the UK, a historical fact which would explain the
peculiar fixation on comparing the EFA to the F-22
in much of the marketing literature. The
comparison is curious in the sense that the EFA is
conceptually an evolution in the teen series fighter
paradigm, whereas the F-22 combines sustained
supercruising engines and Very Low Observables
(stealth), thus representing a completely new
paradigm.
The first prototype Eurofighter 2000 DA.1 flew
from the DASA Manching facility in March 1994.


----------



## praveen007

*part - 2
.
The Eurofighter Typhoon &#8211; A Technical Summary :-
.
*.
The Typhoon employs a combined delta canard
configuration with a wing area similar to the F-15,
and similar internal fuel capacity, yet the aircraft
has an empty weight of around 24,250 lb, much
like a late model F/A-18C. The excellent empty
weight of the Typhoon in relation to the wing size
is as much a result of the compact configuration,
as it is of the generous use of carbon fibre
composites in the fuselage and wing of the
aircraft. Titanium canards and outer control
surfaces, and Aluminium Lithium alloy leading
edges were employed to minimise weight yet
achieve high structural strength.
The combined delta canard configuration and 538
ft2 wing size confer very low wing loading on
50% internal fuel, and are optimised for transonic
manoeuvre and supersonic dash performance.
The combination of sweep angle and unstable aft
CoG is clearly intended for minimising supersonic
drag, and is comparable to a classical supersonic
interceptor like the Mirage series, but is more
modest than the &#8220;supercruiser&#8221; 72° swept
inboard wing section of the F-16XL/E.
The Typhoon is unlikely to match the supersonic
high G envelope of F-16XL/E due to a lower wing
sweep angle, but will have a useful advantage
over most teen/teenski series types optimised for
transonic turning. In transonic manoeuvre, the
automatic full span leading edge slats are used to
adjust the wing camber and therefore reduce the
lift induced drag at high G characteristic of
classical deltas in this regime. Fuselage vortex
generators on either side of the cockpit are
employed to promote vortex formation at high
AoA and low speeds, and thus increase lift.
The paired inlet is optimised for high AoA
performance, using forebody flow to promote air
ingestion, as well as a boundary layer splitter
above the inlet. The combination of vortex lift and
inlet geometry used by the Typhoon exploits the
same ideas used in the F-16A/C/XL/E.
The loosely coupled canard is intended to provide
high control authority at high angles of attack, by
placing the surfaces ahead of the main vortices,
but also to provide lower trim drag in supersonic
flight.
In comparing the Typhoon to established
fighters, the aerodynamic design exploits basic
ideas used in F-16 family, but combines them
with a strongly swept delta and canard
configuration to extend the supersonic envelope,
although not as aggressively as GD did with the
660 ft2 cranked arrow F-16XL/E wing. The
simpler wing design in the Typhoon in turn
required canards to achieve the desired
supersonic drag and manoeuvre envelope.
From the perspective of airframe optimisations,
the Typhoon is without doubt optimised for its
two primary design objectives, which are
supersonic BVR interception and close in combat
at transonic speeds, with no obvious concessions
made to the secondary objective of strike. The
low wing loading will confer excellent climb
performance for the installed thrust, and the the
delta configuration lower supersonic drag, in
comparison with the F/A-18. The low wing
loading is not optimal for low level strike profiles,
but the gust sensitivity will be alleviated by the
large sweep angle and the use of artificial stability
and canards. The airframe is rated to +9/-3G at an
undisclosed combat weight, pylon G ratings have
also not been disclosed.

---------- Post added at 11:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:07 PM ----------

The aircraft is powered by a pair of Eurojet EJ200
afterburning turbofans, rated at 13,500 lbf dry
and 20,000 lbf reheated at sea level, which is
comparable to growth variants of the F/A-18&#8242;s
GE F404. The 0.4:1 bypass ratio is characteristic of
modern fighter engines, and is optimised for
transonic performance rather than cruise burn.
Eurofighter claim the engine has a supercruise
capability, although the duration of possible
supercruise has not been disclosed. As the engine
is technologically of the same generation as
evolved teen series engines, expectations that it
can deliver the kind of supercruise performance
provided by uniquely designed supercruising
powerplants like the US F119 and F120 are difficult
to accept.
In an OCA/DCA combat configuration, clean, at
50% internal fuel (~6,500 lb), the Typhoon
delivers a nominal sea level dry thrust/weight
ratio of 0.82:1 and reheated thrust/weight ratio of
1.22:1 with a wing loading of 60.8 lb/ft2. Both are
in the class of the F-15A/C, F-16A/C, MiG-29 and
Su-27SK.
The aircraft uses a quadruply redundant digital
flight control system intended to provide carefree
handling, the latter an advancement over the teen
series, and in many respects a necessity given
the inherently pitch unstable aerodynamic
configuration.
An experienced F/A-18 pilot who flew the
Typhoon simulator commented to the author
that the aircraft&#8217;s manoeuvre/handling
performance did not appear to be a dramatic
improvement over the F/A-18, and rudder
authority at high AoA did not match the F/A-18. It
is however possible that further refinement of the
flight control software could have yielded
handling improvements since the mid nineties.
The overall impression resulting from a review of
the aircraft&#8217;s basic configuration, propulsion and
fuel package is of a fighter with F-15 class
transonic and supersonic agility at optimal
weight, instantaneous manoeuvre performance
slightly exceeding the teen series, all packaged
into an F/A-18 sized airframe with installed thrust
comparable to late build F/A-18 models. This
reflects very closely the initial EFA design
objectives.
The Typhoon&#8217;s avionic package is built essentially
upon the technology base used in the teen series
fighters, but employs a higher level of integration
against established in service teen series types.
The centrepiece of the avionic package is the X-
band (I/J-band) ECR-90 pulse-Doppler multimode
radar, similar in concept to the US Raytheon
APG-63/65/70 series and derived from the Blue
Vixen (Harrier FRS.2). Eurofighter are claiming
twice the output power of the F/A-18&#8242;s
APG-65/73 series (typical power output for this
class is 10 kW peak), and twice the detection
range of the F-16&#8242;s APG-68. However, in the
absence of published data on the ECR-90&#8242;s
mechanically steered planar array aperture size,
and peak power ratings, it is impossible to
robustly verify these assertions. The radar is
frequently credited with a detection range
advantage over the F-15&#8242;s APG-63/70 series, a
necessity for the intended use of ramjet BVR
missiles with an 80 NMI class A-pole range.
In terms of modes the ECR-90 incorporates the
typical package we are familiar with in the teen
series, or equivalents. Eurofighter emphasise the
rapid slew rate of the planar array.

---------- Post added at 11:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:10 PM ----------

At this time an active phased array, the AMSAR, is
in development as an upgrade to the ECR-90 and
the Rafale&#8217;s RBE2 passive phased array. The
AMSAR/ECR-90 is technologically in the same
category as the APG-68 ABR (F-16C/B.60) and
APG-73 RUG III. It is expected to be available by
around 2005, and would provide like the ABR and
RUG III improved BVR performance, much lower
sidelobes, interleaved search and engagement
modes and the potential for interleaved terrain
following and ground attack modes. AMSAR
offers the potential for LPI operation, but would
require further design optimisations and a
fundamental redesign of many portions of the
ECR-90 back end.
The ECR-90 is supplemented by two passive
sensors. The Pilkington Optronics PIRATE mid-
wave IRS&T/FLIR can be used for detection,
identification and terrain avoidance, with eight
discrete operating modes. It is tightly integrated
with the radar&#8217;s functions and either can be
slaved to the other. In the absence of aperture
and detector size data it is impossible to estimate
the effective range under clear sky conditions.
An ESM is integrated into the Defensive Aids
SubSystem (DASS), and could be employed as a
passive targeting tool in engagements, in addition
to its basic function as a sensitive long range
RWR. The antenna packages are in the wingtip
pods.
The DASS package is comprehensive,
incorporating the ESM/RWR, a MAWS, a forward
sector Laser Warning Receiver (RAF),
expendables, DECM and an optical fibre towed
decoy. This is a competitive package by any
measure, against its US contemporaries.
The core avionic architecture is based upon the
federated model, using multiple Mil-Std-1553B
busses, making it comparable technologically to
late build teen series systems. Eurofighter claim
the use of sensor fusion techniques in the system
software, to combine the data produced by the
radar, IRS&T and ESM to provide a very high
confidence of early BVR target identification and
engagement. Given the significantly lower
available computing power in the Typhoon,
against the F-22A&#8217;s Cray class CIPs, assertions
that this capability is competitive against the
sensor fusion software in the F-22A are
somewhat peculiar, given that real time sensor
fusion is a computationally intensive task.
Eurofighter take much pride in the aircraft&#8217;s
cockpit, which incorporates a holographic HUD, 3
colour MFDs, HOTAS controls, and pilot voice
input for selecting system modes. Marconi are
developing a HMD, which is intended to provide
the pilot with visor projected binocular NVG
imagery, FLIR/IRS&T imagery and symbology.
On the available data the cockpit is state of the art,
and clearly very competitive against teen series
equivalents.
Primary navigation reference is provided by a
Litton LN-93EF RLG INS, supplemented by GPS
and TACAN. A GPWS (ground prox warning) and
Microwave Landing System (MLS) are
incorporated, the former to aid in low level
operations. The aircraft carries secure VHF and
UHF comm, an IFF interrogator and a MIDS/JTIS
terminal.
For BVR combat the Typhoon&#8217;s primary weapon
will be the Matra-BAe Meteor FMRAAM, a ramjet
powered AAM with a radar seeker evolved from
the Matra-BAe MICA. The proposal to use the
extended range AMRAAM derived ERAAM, or an
ramjet AMRAAM derivative, was rejected in
favour of a wholly European AAM. The interim
BVR weapon will be the US AIM-120B AMRAAM.
Most sources credit the FMRAAM with 80 NMI
engagement range against a closing target, about
20% better than the ERAAM. The FMRAAM is to
outrange the Russian Vympel R-77M ramjet
Adder derivative. Four BVR AAMs will be carried
in wing root semi-conformal wells.
For close-in combat the RAF Typhoon will be
armed with the AIM-132 ASRAAM, soon to be
deployed on the RAAF&#8217;s F/A-18A+ fleet. Non-RAF
Typhoons will carry a single Mauser 27 mm
cannon, the MoD having decided to delete the
gun from RAF aircraft. Weapon interfaces are
compatible with standard Sidewinder and
AMRAAM interfaces, it is likely the FMRAAM will
use the AMRAAM interface.
For strike operations, a range of weapons may be
carried. The primary RAF standoff weapon will be
the Matra-BAe Storm Shadow cruise missile,
derived from the French Apache, the Luftwaffe is
likely to stay with the Tornado&#8217;s KEPD-350.
Variants of the Paveway laser guided bomb may
be carried, with a TIALD FLIR/laser pod
occupying one forward AAM well. For close-in
tank busting, the millimetric wave Brimstone
(AGM-114F Hellfire derivative) will be used. We
can expect to see the Matra-BAe ALARM used for
SEAD by the RAF, the AGM-88 HARM by the
Luftwaffe. Mil-Std-1760 interfaces are provided as
with current build teen series fighters to facilitate
the integration of new weapons.
A wide range of options exist for external fuel
carriage. For supersonic OCA/DCA combat,
around 4,500 lb can be carried in upper wing
root Conformal Fuel Tanks (CFT) and around
1,800 lb each in a pair of drop tanks. For subsonic
strike sorties, 1,500 L or 2,000 L drop tanks may
be carried in addition to CFTs.
Eurofighter marketing literature makes much
mileage out of a claimed &#8220;stealth&#8221; capability,
acquired by the use of S-bend inlet tunnels and
selective application of radar absorbent materials.
The design spec is claimed to have included
bounds on RCS performance.
The assertion that the aircraft has a &#8220;stealth&#8221;
capability is curious by any measure, since there
is no evidence of planform alignment, panel edge
alignment, blending or faceting, all established
techniques used and proven on US types such as
the F-117A, B-2A, YF-23A, F-22A and the JSF
prototypes. Indeed the external carriage of stores
alone would make the Typhoon&#8217;s radar signature
at least 10-100 times greater than the golfball to
insect sized RCS we are accustomed to with US
types. Unless the Europeans have invented new
laws of radar scattering, the aircraft is at best a
conventional fighter with reduced forward sector
RCS, comparable to evolved F/A-18, F-16
variants, the Rafale or the B-1B.
The benefits of such limited RCS reduction are
marginal, since the detection range curve is fairly
steep in this region and modest increases in
opposing radar performance can largely offset
any gains in such RCS reduction. While every
dBSM down is useful, beyond 0.3 of a square
metre the payoff is questionable with external
stores being carried. Moreover, unless an LPI
radar is carried, the emissions of the radar will
betray the fighter to an opponent from well
outside radar range.
Published detection range performance for the
NIIP N-011M and Phazotron Zhuk-Ph (Su-30MK
upgrades) and Agat 9B-1103M/9B-1348E R-77/
R-77M seekers would suggest that a Typhoon
loaded with external stores could be successfully
engaged within the 50-65 NMI envelope. The
Meteor ramjet AAM is therefore vital to the
Typhoon, since the AMRAAM cannot fully exploit
the range advantage of the BVR weapon system.

---------- Post added at 11:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:11 PM ----------

At this time an active phased array, the AMSAR, is
in development as an upgrade to the ECR-90 and
the Rafales RBE2 passive phased array. The
AMSAR/ECR-90 is technologically in the same
category as the APG-68 ABR (F-16C/B.60) and
APG-73 RUG III. It is expected to be available by
around 2005, and would provide like the ABR and
RUG III improved BVR performance, much lower
sidelobes, interleaved search and engagement
modes and the potential for interleaved terrain
following and ground attack modes. AMSAR
offers the potential for LPI operation, but would
require further design optimisations and a
fundamental redesign of many portions of the
ECR-90 back end.
The ECR-90 is supplemented by two passive
sensors. The Pilkington Optronics PIRATE mid-
wave IRS&T/FLIR can be used for detection,
identification and terrain avoidance, with eight
discrete operating modes. It is tightly integrated
with the radars functions and either can be
slaved to the other. In the absence of aperture
and detector size data it is impossible to estimate
the effective range under clear sky conditions.
An ESM is integrated into the Defensive Aids
SubSystem (DASS), and could be employed as a
passive targeting tool in engagements, in addition
to its basic function as a sensitive long range
RWR. The antenna packages are in the wingtip
pods.
The DASS package is comprehensive,
incorporating the ESM/RWR, a MAWS, a forward
sector Laser Warning Receiver (RAF),
expendables, DECM and an optical fibre towed
decoy. This is a competitive package by any
measure, against its US contemporaries.
The core avionic architecture is based upon the
federated model, using multiple Mil-Std-1553B
busses, making it comparable technologically to
late build teen series systems. Eurofighter claim
the use of sensor fusion techniques in the system
software, to combine the data produced by the
radar, IRS&T and ESM to provide a very high
confidence of early BVR target identification and
engagement. Given the significantly lower
available computing power in the Typhoon,
against the F-22As Cray class CIPs, assertions
that this capability is competitive against the
sensor fusion software in the F-22A are
somewhat peculiar, given that real time sensor
fusion is a computationally intensive task.
Eurofighter take much pride in the aircrafts
cockpit, which incorporates a holographic HUD, 3
colour MFDs, HOTAS controls, and pilot voice
input for selecting system modes. Marconi are
developing a HMD, which is intended to provide
the pilot with visor projected binocular NVG
imagery, FLIR/IRS&T imagery and symbology.
On the available data the cockpit is state of the art,
and clearly very competitive against teen series
equivalents.
Primary navigation reference is provided by a
Litton LN-93EF RLG INS, supplemented by GPS
and TACAN. A GPWS (ground prox warning) and
Microwave Landing System (MLS) are
incorporated, the former to aid in low level
operations. The aircraft carries secure VHF and
UHF comm, an IFF interrogator and a MIDS/JTIS
terminal.
For BVR combat the Typhoons primary weapon
will be the Matra-BAe Meteor FMRAAM, a ramjet
powered AAM with a radar seeker evolved from
the Matra-BAe MICA. The proposal to use the
extended range AMRAAM derived ERAAM, or an
ramjet AMRAAM derivative, was rejected in
favour of a wholly European AAM. The interim
BVR weapon will be the US AIM-120B AMRAAM.
Most sources credit the FMRAAM with 80 NMI
engagement range against a closing target, about
20% better than the ERAAM. The FMRAAM is to
outrange the Russian Vympel R-77M ramjet
Adder derivative. Four BVR AAMs will be carried
in wing root semi-conformal wells.
For close-in combat the RAF Typhoon will be
armed with the AIM-132 ASRAAM, soon to be
deployed on the RAAFs F/A-18A+ fleet. Non-RAF
Typhoons will carry a single Mauser 27 mm
cannon, the MoD having decided to delete the
gun from RAF aircraft. Weapon interfaces are
compatible with standard Sidewinder and
AMRAAM interfaces, it is likely the FMRAAM will
use the AMRAAM interface.
For strike operations, a range of weapons may be
carried. The primary RAF standoff weapon will be
the Matra-BAe Storm Shadow cruise missile,
derived from the French Apache, the Luftwaffe is
likely to stay with the Tornados KEPD-350.
Variants of the Paveway laser guided bomb may
be carried, with a TIALD FLIR/laser pod
occupying one forward AAM well. For close-in
tank busting, the millimetric wave Brimstone
(AGM-114F Hellfire derivative) will be used. We
can expect to see the Matra-BAe ALARM used for
SEAD by the RAF, the AGM-88 HARM by the
Luftwaffe. Mil-Std-1760 interfaces are provided as
with current build teen series fighters to facilitate
the integration of new weapons.
A wide range of options exist for external fuel
carriage. For supersonic OCA/DCA combat,
around 4,500 lb can be carried in upper wing
root Conformal Fuel Tanks (CFT) and around
1,800 lb each in a pair of drop tanks. For subsonic
strike sorties, 1,500 L or 2,000 L drop tanks may
be carried in addition to CFTs.
Eurofighter marketing literature makes much
mileage out of a claimed stealth capability,
acquired by the use of S-bend inlet tunnels and
selective application of radar absorbent materials.
The design spec is claimed to have included
bounds on RCS performance.
The assertion that the aircraft has a stealth
capability is curious by any measure, since there
is no evidence of planform alignment, panel edge
alignment, blending or faceting, all established
techniques used and proven on US types such as
the F-117A, B-2A, YF-23A, F-22A and the JSF
prototypes. Indeed the external carriage of stores
alone would make the Typhoons radar signature
at least 10-100 times greater than the golfball to
insect sized RCS we are accustomed to with US
types. Unless the Europeans have invented new
laws of radar scattering, the aircraft is at best a
conventional fighter with reduced forward sector
RCS, comparable to evolved F/A-18, F-16
variants, the Rafale or the B-1B.
The benefits of such limited RCS reduction are
marginal, since the detection range curve is fairly
steep in this region and modest increases in
opposing radar performance can largely offset
any gains in such RCS reduction. While every
dBSM down is useful, beyond 0.3 of a square
metre the payoff is questionable with external
stores being carried. Moreover, unless an LPI
radar is carried, the emissions of the radar will
betray the fighter to an opponent from well
outside radar range.
Published detection range performance for the
NIIP N-011M and Phazotron Zhuk-Ph (Su-30MK
upgrades) and Agat 9B-1103M/9B-1348E R-77/
R-77M seekers would suggest that a Typhoon
loaded with external stores could be successfully
engaged within the 50-65 NMI envelope. The
Meteor ramjet AAM is therefore vital to the
Typhoon, since the AMRAAM cannot fully exploit
the range advantage of the BVR weapon system.


----------



## praveen007

.
*part :- 3
.
Is the Typhoon a Demon or a Lemon? :-
.
.* 
Given the vigorous marketing effort of the
Eurofighter consortium both in Europe and
Australia, and the often extremely hostile
coverage the aircraft has received in the
international press, and moreso UK press, it is
worth exploring the aircraft&#8217;s strengths and
weaknesses against some established baselines.
The aircraft&#8217;s counter air performance is cited as
its major strength, and it is frequently cited to
be &#8220;82% as effective as an F-22&#8221;.
The magic 82% number is derived from a mid
nineties DERA simulation against a postulated
Su-35 threat. The number is based upon the
rather unusual metric of &#8220;probability of successful
engagement&#8221; in BVR combat, rating the F-22 at
91%, the Typhoon at 82%, the F-15F (single seat
E) at 60%, the Rafale at 50% and the F-15C at
43%.
The probability of a successful engagement can
be translated into the more commonly used
metric of a kill ratio by making some reasonable
statistical assumptions, and doing this yields
about 10.0:1 for the F-22A, 4.6:1 for the Typhoon,
1.5:1 for the single seat F-15E, 1:1 for the Rafale and
0.75:1 for the F-15C. So in the most common
terms used, the Typhoon is by the DERA
simulation about half as combat effective as the
F-22A, about three times as combat effective as
the F-15F, about five times as effective as the
Rafale and 6 times as effective as the F-15C. If we
compare this with cited USAF claims rating the
F-22A as 10-15 times as combat effective as the
F-15C in BVR engagements, this means that the
DERA study roughly agrees with USAF
assessments of F-22A vs F-15C combat
effectiveness. The detailed assumptions applied to
this study have not been disclosed.
The validity of this study in today&#8217;s environment
must be questioned. Since its compilation the
Russians have developed the NIIP-011M and
Phazotron Zhuk-Ph phased arrays for the
Su-27/30, the R-77M ramjet Adder, the extended
range R-74 digital Archer, 2D and 3D thrust
vectoring nozzles, higher thrust AL-31 engine
derivatives, and active radar seekers for the R-27
Alamo, as well as fielding an anti-radiation variant
of the Alamo. The F-22A is likely to be shooting
the ERAAM, and some USAF F-15Cs are being
fitted with active phased arrays, with the likely
prospect of getting ERAAMs as well, or even a
ramjet AMRAAM variant. Therefore it is likely that
most of the supporting assumptions used in the
study are very stale, if not irrelevant. Until
Typhoons are equipped with the AMSAR and
Meteor, the projected 4.6:1 BVR kill ratio is by any
measure optimistic, against an evolved Su-30
variant.
Clearly the Typhoon is robustly in the BVR
lethality class of the F-15C/E, and the principal
driver of relative effectiveness between these
types will the radar and missile capabilities. Until
the USAF field phased arrays and ERAAM or
ramjet AAMs on the whole F-15 fleet (some
aircraft are currently being retrofitted with
APG-63(V)3 active phased arrays), the Typhoon
will hold a decisive advantage. US longwave
IRS&T technology is available off-the-shelf and
would much reduce any advantage conferred by
the PIRATE to the Typhoon.

---------- Post added at 11:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:16 PM ----------

The other important considerations in BVR
combat are transonic and supersonic
acceleration, persistence and sustained turn
performance. While the latter are difficult to
estimate, the former can be directly compared by
looking at thrust/weight ratios.
The clean Typhoon, with 50% internal gas and
6-8 AAMs is firmly in the class of the F100-
PW-229 powered F-15F, on dry thrust, and about
15% behind the F-15F on reheat. Where the
Typhoon falls behind the F-15F is when its
operating radius is stretched and additional
external gas is being carried. If we take a
Typhoon with 3 x 1000L external tanks, and an
F-15F with 2 x 600 USG external tanks, we have
configurations which deliver very similar
endurance and operating radius for a point
intercept. In the latter situation, approaching the
target, the Typhoon is around 12% behind the
F-15F in critical reheated thrust/weight ratio. If we
compare a Typhoon with CFTs, 3 x 1000L
external tanks against an F-15F with only CFTs,
we get a shortfall of about 20% in thrust/weight
ratio in addition to the drag penalty of the external
tanks. These are very approximate estimates, not
accounting for combat gas, but even doing a
very accurate simulation would yield the
inevitable conclusion &#8211; an F/A-18 sized fighter, no
matter how agile when clean, cannot compete in
thrust/weight ratio with an F-15 sized fighter at
extended operating radii.
The argument that the smaller fighter can fly out
in a less encumbered configuration, and rely
upon a tanker, disregards the need for enough
internal gas to safely if an AAR fails over water.
By the same token, the use of higher thrust
growth EJ200 engines in the Typhoon alleviates
the problem, but it would still remain behind an
F-15F fitted with the growth 32 klb F100-PW-232
or its GE equivalent F110 variant.
Clearly in any scenario where unrefuelled
operating radius is not a major issue, the
Typhoon is a highly competitive conventional
fighter, and exceeds the capabilities of an F-15
variant without a phased array and extended
range AAMs. However, a new build F-15 with
current technology engines, and AESA/ramjet
AAM package will maintain a healthy performance
margin even over a growth variant of the
Typhoon, and an operating radius advantage.
The relative effectiveness would then boil down
to issues such as tactics, and any relative
advantages of the specific AAMs carried and
radars fitted.
The comparative advantages of the Typhoon
over the Su-27/30 family exhibit similar
sensitivities to technology upgrades in the Sukhoi
fighters. Fitted with a phased array, longwave
IRS&T, carrying ramjet R-77M missiles,
supported by SuAWACS, and using growth
engines we must seriously question how great a
lethality margin the Typhoon would hold against
such a fighter. The Sukhoi, inevitably, exhibits the
same thrust/weight ratio advantages the F-15
does in extended range combat, which was a
design objective for this type as it was for the
F-15.
In comparing the Typhoon against the only other
fighter in its weight class, the F/A-18A/C, the
benefits of using later generation technology
show very clearly. The Typhoon outperforms the
F/A-18A/C in BVR weapon system capability as
well as aerodynamic performance. While much
better than the F/A-18A/C in operating radius and
agility, its optimal operating radius is not in the
class of the F-15 and Su-27/30.

---------- Post added at 11:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:17 PM ----------

*conclusion.
.
.*
What conclusions can we draw about the
Typhoon? The notion that the aircraft is &#8220;almost
as good as an F-22&#8221; is not supportable, indeed
upgrading the F-15 with engines and a radar/
IRS&T/AAM package of the same generation as
that of the Typhoon would equalise almost all
advantages held by the Typhoon over older
F-15C/E variants. By the same token, no upgrades
performed on the F/A-18A/C would equalise the
performance advantages of the Typhoon over
these aircraft.
The strength of the Typhoon is its very modern
and comprehensive avionic package, especially
that in the RAF variant, and its excellent agility
when operated around its optimum combat
radius of about 300 NMI (a figure to be found in
older Eurofighter literature, which has since
disappeared with the export drive to compete
against the bigger F-15 and F-22).
The Typhoon&#8217;s weaknesses are its F/A-18C class
weight and thrust and the implications of this in
combat at extended operational radii, and the
longer term sensitivity of its BVR weapons
advantage to equivalent technological
developments in opposing fighters.
In terms of where to position the Typhoon in the
current menagerie of fighter aircraft, it can be best
described as an F/A-18C sized fighter with BVR
systems and agility performance better than older
F-15 models, similar to growth F-15 models with
same generation systems and engines, but
inferior to the F-15 in useful operating radius. The
Typhoon is not a stealth aircraft, despite various
assertions to this effect, nor is it a genuine
supercruiser like the F-22. Its design incorporates
none of the features seen in very low observable
types, nor does the EJ200 incorporate the unique
design features of the F119 and F120 powerplants.
The Typhoon is certainly not a lemon, although
the wisdom of mass producing a high
performance conventional fighter of its ilk in a
period where stealth is about to hit mass
production in the F-22 and JSF programs could be
seriously questioned. It represents what is likely
to be the last major evolutionary step in the teen
series design philosophy.


----------



## sancho

Santro said:


> As such we have yet to see the MKI's abilities demonstrated or displayed when it comes to its air to ground capabilities.
> Dumb bombs are fine..and the Brahmos will be an excellent standoff asset.
> But where it comes to the array of missions I laid out previously.. the MKI cannot compete with the Rafale or even the EF in variety.



I'm sorry Santro, but I think you highly underestimate even the current capabilities of the MKI here and to make it not too OT we could do a comparison with the MMRCAs:

*CAS:*

Rafale - Yes - 250Kg Paveway LGBs or AASM PGMs (most likely 125 Kg AASM or Brimstone missile in future)
EF - Yes - 500Kg Paveway LGB (250 Kg Paveway under integration, possibly Brimstone missile in future)
MKI - Yes - 500Kg KAB 500 Kr TV guided bombs and Kh 29 laser guided missiles (KAB 250 bombs and Sudharshan LGBs possible in future)







*SEAD:*

Rafale - Yes - AASM PGM guided by SPECTRA or Damocles pod
EF - No - 
MKI - Yes - Kh 31 missiles






(right wing, inner hardpoint. Other pics from BR available on the net)


*Heavy strike*

Rafale - (Yes) - 1000Kg Paveway LGB was said to be integrated by the end of last year, can't confirm it yet (AASM 1000 in future)
EF - (no) - 1000Kg Paveway LGB was tested, but not integrated yet and only possible if another fighter provides laser guidance
MKI - Yes - 1500Kg KAB Kr 

(pics and IAF official specboards available on BR)


*Curise / Stand off missile strike:*

Rafale - yes - AASM up to 60Km and Scalp up to 300Km 
EF - no - (neither Storm Shadow, Taurus nor HOSBO were integrated and CFTs are necessary to have enough range)
MKI - Yes - Kh 59 up to 115Km (not sure if Kh 59MK2s are available in IAF, with higher range, but in future also Brahmos and Nirbhay)

(pics and IAF official specboards available on BR)


*Maritime attack:*

Rafale - yes - Exocet
EF - no - (RBS 15 is on offer for India, but no partner or customer wants to integrate it)
MKI - (Yes) - (Technically Kh 35 is possible, not sure if IAF has it already, but the upgraded Mig 29s will bring them for sure, since they are integrating them, Brahmos of course in future)


*Tanker role:*

Rafale - Yes - Shown with Rafale Ms on board of the CdG carrier
EF - no - (technically possible, but not on offer for EF)
MKI - Yes - already available in IAF service







*Reconnaissance:*

Rafale - Yes - with Reco NG pod
EF - No - (since it is using the Litening pod, it might use the RecceLite pod in future but no bigger recon pod)
MKI - Yes - most likely the IAI ELM-2060 pod, but it's already in service and replaced Mig 25s in that role







As you can see, the MKI is already a true multi role fighter and the coming upgrade will make it even more capable, only Rafale offering similar capabilities and would provide IAF with alternative weapons and techs as a 2nd frontline fighter. EF will be outclassed by both of them and needs important upgrades to be even comparable.

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## ziaulislam

let see what india choose. but i am one of the few who question what was the real need of MRCA in first place when india had an MKI with it range of capablities. What we see in large air forces is a high low mix capablity. india already had MKI in high catergery (and soon to be inducted the PAKFA) . it could have filled the LCA as in low catergery( a number 200-300). The MRCA virtually was death sign for any hopes for LCA to become the work horse of IAF in additon to being billion of dollars investment.
only reason what i can see is the IAF didnt liked the LCA even though to me LCA is a very good aircraft.


----------



## The enlightened

wanglaokan said:


> http://tuku.military.china.com/military/html/2012-01-15/191973_2028493.htm#pic![/QUOTE]
> Was that the best you could do troll.


----------



## janon

ziaulislam said:


> let see what india choose. but i am one of the few who question what was the real need of MRCA in first place when india had an MKI with it range of capablities. What we see in large air forces is a high low mix capablity. india already had MKI in high catergery (and soon to be inducted the PAKFA) . it could have filled the LCA as in low catergery( a number 200-300). The MRCA virtually was death sign for any hopes for LCA to become the work horse of IAF in additon to being billion of dollars investment.
> only reason what i can see is the IAF didnt liked the LCA even though to me LCA is a very good aircraft.



I can't quite make up my mind whether to agree or disagree with your point. I'm strongly ambivalent, to quote steven colbert.

If you look at other air forces which operate huge numbers of aircrafts like the IAF does (in fact a lot more than the IAF), what they call Hi-Lo is actually Hi-Medium as IAF would call it. The latest blocks of F-16s that the USAf operates are very much in the medium category - the block 70IN actually participated in the M-MRCA competition. In future they intend to operate only F-22s and F-35s, and the F-35 is also medium category as IAF would call it.

The Russian air force operates mostly flankers (heavy) and mig-29s (medium) in the fighter category, other than assorted twin engine migs in smaller numbers. They don't operate any single engined or light aircrafts as far as I know.

The chinese air force of the future is also going to comprise of only heavy and medium fighters, from what I foresee. They do not plan to induct JF-17 or any light fighters.

However India cannot afford to have 39-42 squadrons of heavy and medium fighters, and needs light fighters to make up numbers. Hence the need for 3 categories.

However, part of me does warm to the idea of several hundreds of LCAs supplanting the MKIs until the PAKFA arrives. However, that is only due to my desire to see the indigenous LCA playing a big role. Another factor is the seemingly huge cost of the deal.

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## The enlightened

I think need of MMRCA has changed from just adding up numbers to providing the Indian defence sector with much needed technology and investments[ToT and offsets] and ofcourse a great plane. India started on the course of Inidegenous weapons later than any advanced country and doesn't have much to show for a MIC.
And that what it so important IMO


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## StrikeForce

Santro and Sancho, You guys made my day! Great Discussion...

I wish Rafale is selected by end of Jan-12 with no further delays.

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## indian navy

select any one 

either euro or rafale and induct them ASAP 

we have to increase our numbers and both planes are good , we have to induct them ASAP


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## The enlightened

praveen007 said:


> It is expected to be available by
> around 2005,


Words like these don't instill much confidence in this article.
Anyway Carlo Kopp is bashed a lot at WAB
for reasons I don't know.


----------



## SQ8

What I meant Sancho was not that the MKI has these capabilities, or rather is in the process of acquiring them.
But if it can match the Rafale's "Jack of all trades" ability and weapons capability.
Current IAF firepower demonstrations still seem to focus on the MKI's basic A2G ability.
How much of the Kh series have been operationally tested is in question.
Perhaps taking the existence and possible compatibility of french equipment on the MKI there may be options for even more commonality.(btw the rafale has dropped the heavier paveways.. but the target lase was from a etendard).
It is surprising then as to why the EF is being rumored as the winner.. but then again, I did stress that the decision would eventually have a political and diplomatic element in it.


----------



## Gandhi G in da house

Santro said:


> What I meant Sancho was not that the MKI has these capabilities, or rather is in the process of acquiring them.
> But if it can match the Rafale's "Jack of all trades" ability and weapons capability.
> Current IAF firepower demonstrations still seem to focus on the MKI's basic A2G ability.
> How much of the Kh series have been operationally tested is in question.
> Perhaps taking the existence and possible compatibility of french equipment on the MKI there may be options for even more commonality.(btw the rafale has dropped the heavier paveways.. but the target lase was from a etendard).
> It is surprising then as to why the EF is being rumored as the winner.. but then again, *I did stress that the decision would eventually have a political and diplomatic element in it*.



why would india choose the EF for those reasons and not the rafale ?


----------



## SQ8

nick_indian said:


> why would india choose the EF for those reasons and not the rafale ?



EF partner nations(and by that I mean those that will profit from the sale):
46%: EADS
33% EADS Deutschland GmbH (Germany)
13% EADS CASA (Spain)
33%: BAE Systems (United Kingdom)
21%: Alenia Aeronautica (Italy)

Thats just the airframe.

Weapons:
EADS (37.5%) 
BAE Systems (37.5%)
Finmeccanica (25%) _Italy_
Raytheon -United states

Rafale partner nations:
France-- most major contributor to airframe.. most to gain.

Weapons:
MBDA
Raytheon


So the clear diplomatic and economic winner is the Typhoon. The french _already have_ contracts awarded to them by the Indian military such as the M2K upgrade and the Scorpenes.
So while losing the MMRCA may hurt Dassault a lot... India may "alleviate" the worries of the french gov by offering other contracts from its large scale modernization programs.

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## sancho

ziaulislam said:


> let see what india choose. but i am one of the few who question what was the real need of MRCA in first place when india had an MKI with it range of capablities. What we see in large air forces is a high low mix capablity. india already had MKI in high catergery (and soon to be inducted the PAKFA) . it could have filled the LCA as in low catergery( a number 200-300). The MRCA virtually was death sign for any hopes for LCA to become the work horse of IAF in additon to being billion of dollars investment.
> only reason what i can see is the IAF didnt liked the LCA even though to me LCA is a very good aircraft.



Don't see MMRCA as a simple fighter procurement! LCA development was delayed, that's why IAF wanted a foreign fighter as a stop gap and strated the MRCA competition. Back then, the focus was on a fast procurement and induction, which is why IAF prefered the Mirage 2000-5, but MoD/GoI understood that that this is a chance to not only get a new fighter, but high side benefits, be it to improve the indigenous industry, political or economical advantages. That's why *they*, scrapped the initial competition and started the M-MRCA inculding more US and European contenders (to more competition, the more benefits for India)!
When you look at the procurement only from IAF point of view, the addition of Mirage 2000s would have been the perfect decision, single engine, cost-effective, good multi role capabilities, proven in IAF, fits between LCA MK1 and MKI and we would a good hi / lo mix of the fleet. With MMRCA it gets bigger and closer to MKI capabilities of course, but that is not an aim of the procurement, just a side note. 
Rafale and EF are the most expensive fighters in the competition, but were always those contenders, that offered the most side benefits. Since the MMRCA rules requires high ToT and offsets in return, the expenses India has, will be returned to a high degree into JV or co-developments again, which then not only creats new jobs, but also improves Indian industry.




Santro said:


> So the clear diplomatic and economic winner is the Typhoon.



I agree on economic terms, not on diplomatic though. Of the 4 EF partners, Spain and Italy have no important diplomatic at all, so can't be interesting for India. Germany is only strong within the EU, internationally, they are even behind India, like the election for the UNC showed and India is much closer to be a permanent member as well.
Which basically leaves the UK as a veto power, but France is a veto power as well and currently the strongest European nation when it comes to military. I am still impressed about their leadership and political influence during the Libyan conflict, because they did not only took the lead in the attacks, but influenced even the US and UK, which normally don't have the best relations to France and even Arabic countries like the UAE and Qatar to participate. None of the EF partners would have been able to do this and I didn't expected the French to still have so much influence and that's why I see them as a stronger diplomatic partner for India, next to Russia, Israel and even the US today.


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## sancho

Santro said:


> What I meant Sancho was not that the MKI has these capabilities, or rather is in the process of acquiring them.
> But if it can match the Rafale's "Jack of all trades" ability and weapons capability.
> Current IAF firepower demonstrations still seem to focus on the MKI's basic A2G ability.
> How much of the Kh series have been operationally tested is in question.



IAF has tested the Kh 29 and 31 (more pics available on BR, but I didn't wanted to post them even via imageshack or so, unless it's ok for you), but I can't tell you how often they tested them, especially on firepower demonstrations like Vayu Shakti or so. These weapons are integrated by Russia into the Flanker series anyway, so there is no technical integration needed from IAF side, only training and there are pics of training rounds of Kh 59 as well.




Santro said:


> It is surprising then as to why the EF is being rumored as the winner.. but then again, I did stress that the decision would eventually have a political and diplomatic element in it.



From technical point of view I can't understand it either and since I am for the best fighter for Indian forces, I would be against it, but as mentioned, MMRCA has more than just the requirements of IAF to fulfill and depending on which requirements are more important, the EF might have chances to win as well.


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## ziaulislam

mosts of the member say that MRCA only real valid reason is TOT however i disagree..india could easily have gotten much technology as sub systems for their LCA and or AMCA the future jet instead of wasting over 20 billion dollars in MRCA.
had i have been IAF chief i would have spent t5 billion in intergating western technology with TOT in LCA and procured nearly 200 fighters and rest of the money i would have spent in AMCA so as to ensure it gets ready for induction around 2025 when IAF would be atleast thinking of retiring mig29 and other related aircrafts..

what i am saying that whenever is see the history of any air force it seems different, most countries strife to get their own aircrft or do a joint venture..india instead went for a mega deal of 20 billion..doesnt make sense when India is not in dire need of such aircrft in presence of MKI,LCA and PAKFA

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## Yeti

ziaulislam said:


> mosts of the member say that MRCA only real valid reason is TOT however i disagree..india could easily have gotten much technology as sub systems for their LCA and or AMCA the future jet instead of wasting over 20 billion dollars in MRCA.
> had i have been IAF chief i would have spent t5 billion in intergating western technology with TOT in LCA and procured nearly 200 fighters and rest of the money i would have spent in AMCA so as to ensure it gets ready for induction around 2025 when IAF would be atleast thinking of retiring mig29 and other related aircrafts..
> 
> what i am saying that whenever is see the history of any air force it seems different, most countries strife to get their own aircrft or do a joint venture..india instead went for a mega deal of 20 billion..doesnt make sense when India is not in dire need of such aircrft in presence of MKI,LCA and PAKFA


 

What about the access to western weapons like Meteor etc? and commercial offsets to aid our domestic industry.


the winner of the MMRCA tender will invest over $ 5 billion as offsets into the Indian defence sector.

---------- Post added at 03:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:47 PM ----------

We need a fighter with a lower RCS compared to our Sukhois also. 
Mig 27's/Jaguars/Mirages/Mig 29's all have to be replaced sooner or later


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## janon

ziaulislam said:


> mosts of the member say that MRCA only real valid reason is TOT however i disagree..india could easily have gotten much technology as sub systems for their LCA and or AMCA the future jet instead of wasting over 20 billion dollars in MRCA.
> had i have been IAF chief i would have spent t5 billion in intergating western technology with TOT in LCA and procured nearly 200 fighters and rest of the money i would have spent in AMCA so as to ensure it gets ready for induction around 2025 when IAF would be atleast thinking of retiring mig29 and other related aircrafts.



Most of the important ToT is related to the manufacturing process. That can't be "bought" for the LCA. This will hopefully give India a quantum leap in its aerospace manufacturing sector, and experience in western production methods.

200 LCA and 300 MKIs would still leave a shortfall of about 300 aircrafts until the PAKFA and AMCA arrive. The AMCA is not arriving for another 15 years. Also, MKIs would be the only aircraft with long range capabilities. One technical snag can ground the entire fleet, it is not a good idea to have all your expeditionary capability fulfilled by one kind. Also, the MRCAs are immensely cheaper to operate than the MKIs, and require far less maintainance. Since we are talking about 25-30 years of service, that would in itself be a huge cost saving factor - which is of course the rationale for having medium category aircrafts in addition to heavy ones.


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## Yeti

defence.professionals | defpro.com

*Eurojet may transfer single crystal blade technology to India *

We need to get as much tech transfer as we can from this deal but I feel the Europeans will get more despo as time passes.


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## StrikeForce

sancho said:


> I agree on economic terms, not on diplomatic though. Of the 4 EF partners, Spain and Italy have no important diplomatic at all, so can't be interesting for India. Germany is only strong within the EU, internationally, they are even behind India, like the election for the UNC showed and India is much closer to be a permanent member as well.
> Which basically leaves the UK as a veto power, but France is a veto power as well and currently the strongest European nation when it comes to military. I am still impressed about their leadership and political influence during the Libyan conflict, because they did not only took the lead in the attacks, but influenced even the US and UK, which normally don't have the best relations to France and even Arabic countries like the UAE and Qatar to participate. None of the EF partners would have been able to do this and I didn't expected the French to still have so much influence and that's why I see them as a stronger diplomatic partner for India, next to Russia, Israel and even the US today.



IMHO, Apart from the fact that Rafale is a better product than EF. Even looking at it in many angles, France has been a trusted partner than many European countries. Their products has been extensively used by Indian Army and has been extremely good.

Practically, I will trust single country than multiple countries in terms of weapons/parts supply. 

Economically, Italy and Spain are in bad shape. So dependency/partnership is a high risk affair.

And in this current Scam prone situation, I am sure diplomacy will take a back seat than the quality/bidding process of the product. If diplomacy needs due consideration, then F-18 Super hornet could have been a short listed candidate.

I wish the MoD and GOI release the suspense thriller 'Winner' asap to put an end to all conspiracies.

---------- Post added at 09:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:17 PM ----------




sancho said:


> I agree on economic terms, not on diplomatic though. Of the 4 EF partners, Spain and Italy have no important diplomatic at all, so can't be interesting for India. Germany is only strong within the EU, internationally, they are even behind India, like the election for the UNC showed and India is much closer to be a permanent member as well.
> Which basically leaves the UK as a veto power, but France is a veto power as well and currently the strongest European nation when it comes to military. I am still impressed about their leadership and political influence during the Libyan conflict, because they did not only took the lead in the attacks, but influenced even the US and UK, which normally don't have the best relations to France and even Arabic countries like the UAE and Qatar to participate. None of the EF partners would have been able to do this and I didn't expected the French to still have so much influence and that's why I see them as a stronger diplomatic partner for India, next to Russia, Israel and even the US today.



IMHO, Apart from the fact that Rafale is a better product than EF. Even looking at it in many angles, France has been a trusted partner than many European countries. Their products has been extensively used by Indian Army and has been extremely good.

Practically, I will trust single country than multiple countries in terms of weapons/parts supply. 

Economically, Italy and Spain are in bad shape. So dependency/partnership is a high risk affair.

And in this current Scam prone situation, I am sure diplomacy will take a back seat than the quality/bidding process of the product. If diplomacy needs due consideration, then F-18 Super hornet could have been a short listed candidate.

I wish the MoD and GOI release the suspense thriller 'Winner' asap to put an end to all conspiracies.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Yeti

StrikeForce said:


> IMHO, Apart from the fact that Rafale is a better product than EF. Even looking at it in many angles, France has been a trusted partner than many European countries. Their products has been extensively used by Indian Army and has been extremely good.
> 
> Practically, I will trust single country than multiple countries in terms of weapons/parts supply.
> 
> Economically, Italy and Spain are in bad shape. So dependency/partnership is a high risk affair.
> 
> And in this current Scam prone situation, I am sure diplomacy will take a back seat than the quality/bidding process of the product. If diplomacy needs due consideration, then F-18 Super hornet could have been a short listed candidate.
> 
> I wish the MoD and GOI release the suspense thriller 'Winner' asap to put an end to all conspiracies.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 09:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:17 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> IMHO, Apart from the fact that Rafale is a better product than EF. Even looking at it in many angles, France has been a trusted partner than many European countries. Their products has been extensively used by Indian Army and has been extremely good.
> 
> Practically, I will trust single country than multiple countries in terms of weapons/parts supply.
> 
> Economically, Italy and Spain are in bad shape. So dependency/partnership is a high risk affair.
> 
> And in this current Scam prone situation, I am sure diplomacy will take a back seat than the quality/bidding process of the product. If diplomacy needs due consideration, then F-18 Super hornet could have been a short listed candidate.
> 
> I wish the MoD and GOI release the suspense thriller 'Winner' asap to put an end to all conspiracies.





How is Rafale a better product to the EF? when EF has better performance and lower RCS


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## Yeti

the Typhoon is considered the perfect "desert eagle". The aircraft already demonstrates its full capabilities in the arid, hot and humid climate of the Gulf region. Thanks to its exceptional thrust-to-weight ratio, the Typhoon suffers less than other fighters in the difficult environmental conditions and is able to exploit at full its payload capability and range performances.

The most advanced Helmet Mounted Symbology System (HMSS) which forms a key component of the Eurofighter Typhoon weapon system, improving tactical performance for Eurofighter pilots by providing essential flight and weapon aiming information through line of sight imagery.


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## kingdurgaking

Yeti said:


> How is Rafale a better product to the EF? when EF has better performance and lower RCS




when you put a missile under the wing.. there is no concept called lower RCS... it will blink in enemy's radar at least 70 miles far apart.. dont bring the concept of lower RCS when it is < 5th gen... it is absolutely bullshit.. 

Rafale is trust worthy.. it is sanction proof.. is it not a better product?


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## The enlightened

Yeti said:


> How is Rafale a better product to the EF? when EF has better performance and lower RCS


No one is saying no to EF having some sort of edge in performance,but it doesn't really a good package for A2G. It definitely has A2G capabilities or the MOD wouldn't have selected it.
And don't forget that we also have MKI for Air Dominance/Superiority role, and then there will also be PAK-FA and later AMCA.
Also not to forget- 'SPECTRA'. If it is as good as is rumoured to be- i.e if it has active cancellation capability, 
it could be invaluable for us.


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## kingdurgaking

Yeti said:


> the Typhoon is considered the perfect "desert eagle". The aircraft already demonstrates its full capabilities in the arid, hot and humid climate of the Gulf region. Thanks to its exceptional thrust-to-weight ratio, the Typhoon suffers less than other fighters in the difficult environmental conditions and is able to exploit at full its payload capability and range performances.
> 
> The most advanced Helmet Mounted Symbology System (HMSS) which forms a key component of the Eurofighter Typhoon weapon system, improving tactical performance for Eurofighter pilots by providing essential flight and weapon aiming information through line of sight imagery.



Rafale is seriously considered by UAE.. so what do you say about this?.. EFT is not sanction proof.. it will not fly when we test Nukes dude ... but Rafale will fly... Mirages are the perfect example.. they won the war for us


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## Yeti

kingdurgaking said:


> when you put a missile under the wing.. there is no concept called lower RCS... it will blink in enemy's radar at least 70 miles far apart.. dont bring the concept of lower RCS when it is < 5th gen... it is absolutely bullshit..
> 
> Rafale is trust worthy.. it is sanction proof.. is it not a better product?




Lower RCS is lower RCS does not matter if it is 5th gen or 3rd gen the concept still is the same.

As for being sanction proof what makes you think the EF in the future will have sanctions?


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## The enlightened

I think we need to get over this myth of sanctions.
The U.S is a very important partner for and so we are for them[atleast they hope we would be] in the 21'st century political scenario.
I don't think they are fools to waste such an important partner due to nuke tests or war unless it *directly* affects their interests.


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## Yeti

kingdurgaking said:


> Rafale is seriously considered by UAE.. so what do you say about this?.. EFT is not sanction proof.. it will not fly when we test Nukes dude ... but Rafale will fly... Mirages are the perfect example.. they won the war for us




I know all about the UAE tender and if the Rafale suits you so be it but we do not need to customise the EF or the Rafale to carry nukes in the first place.


We are moving away from the old days of sanctions, times have changed and Europe wants to have a strategic relationship with us moving away from a buyer/seller one.


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## Yeti

European consortium EADS Cassidian wants India to be 'full participant' in Eurofighter Typhoon project - The Economic Times


They are committing themselves to transfer unprecedented level of sensitive technology and expertise not just in manufacturing, but also in design, development, and engineering, which are crucial to sustaining a self-reliant defence industry, a major focus of the Indian defence ministry. 

Allaying Indian fears of technology denials and sanctions, as experienced after its 1998 nuclear tests, Maute said the four partner nations were "quite serious about a long-term, stable strategic relations" with India and that it has had a history of reliable partnership.


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## StrikeForce

Yeti said:


> How is Rafale a better product to the EF? when EF has better performance and lower RCS



I thought we discussed enough on this, Didnt we... To save my time. 

*Courtesy - Santro*
Rafale has the edge as it is more of a "complete" package than the Ef when it comes to the ability to carry out missions.. CAP,SWEEP,CAS,STRIKE,SEAD,ESCORT,ANTI-SHIP,BDA,INTERDICTION and probably more.
The EF promises these capabilities, but has yet to deliver.

*Courtesy - Sancho*

*CAS:*

Rafale - Yes - 250Kg Paveway LGBs or AASM PGMs (most likely 125 Kg AASM or Brimstone missile in future)
EF - Yes - 500Kg Paveway LGB (250 Kg Paveway under integration, possibly Brimstone missile in future)

*SEAD:*

Rafale - Yes - AASM PGM guided by SPECTRA or Damocles pod
EF - No &#8211;

*Heavy strike*

Rafale - (Yes) - 1000Kg Paveway LGB was said to be integrated by the end of last year, can't confirm it yet (AASM 1000 in future)
EF - (no) - 1000Kg Paveway LGB was tested, but not integrated yet and only possible if another fighter provides laser guidance

*Curise / Stand off missile strike:*

Rafale - yes - AASM up to 60Km and Scalp up to 300Km 
EF - no - (neither Storm Shadow, Taurus nor HOSBO were integrated and CFTs are necessary to have enough range)

*Maritime attack:*

Rafale - yes - Exocet
EF - no - (RBS 15 is on offer for India, but no partner or customer wants to integrate it)

*Tanker role:*

Rafale - Yes - Shown with Rafale Ms on board of the CdG carrier
EF - no - (technically possible, but not on offer for EF)

*Reconnaissance:*

Rafale - Yes - with Reco NG pod
EF - No - (since it is using the Litening pod, it might use the RecceLite pod in future but no bigger recon pod)


PS: EF has better RCS provided if it goes to war w/o any missiles under its belly!

Any more reason to go for EF. Tell me?


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## Yeti

Strikeforce check out the Eurofighter vs Rafale thread on IDF and what jagjitnatt says on the topic and I share his views but I know Sancho and Spark love the Rafale.


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## StrikeForce

Yeti said:


> European consortium EADS Cassidian wants India to be 'full participant' in Eurofighter Typhoon project - The Economic Times
> 
> 
> They are committing themselves to transfer unprecedented level of sensitive technology and expertise not just in manufacturing, but also in design, development, and engineering, which are crucial to sustaining a self-reliant defence industry, a major focus of the Indian defence ministry.
> 
> Allaying Indian fears of technology denials and sanctions, as experienced after its 1998 nuclear tests, Maute said the four partner nations were "quite serious about a long-term, stable strategic relations" with India and that it has had a history of reliable partnership.



What about depending on one country than depending on multiple countries. Post USSR disintegrates into multiple countries causing migraine to Indian Army causing shortage of spare parts from them. As its assembled from different parts of USSR, now different countries.

India should learn from that and must not take similar risk for its future supply chain.


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## Yeti

StrikeForce said:


> What about depending on one country than depending on multiple countries. Post USSR disintegrates into multiple countries causing migraine to Indian Army causing shortage of spare parts from them. As its assembled from different parts of USSR, now different countries.
> 
> India should learn from that and must not take similar risk for its future supply chain.




Buddy spare parts on the EF is not a issue just ask the Saudis, people are making it a big thing when it's not.


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## illusion8

StrikeForce said:


> What about depending on one country than depending on multiple countries. Post USSR disintegrates into multiple countries causing migraine to Indian Army causing shortage of spare parts from them. As its assembled from different parts of USSR, now different countries.
> 
> India should learn from that and must not take similar risk for its future supply chain.



Thats where TOT is helpful, India can manufacture the parts under license by itself.


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## StrikeForce

Yeti said:


> Strikeforce check out the Eurofighter vs Rafale thread on IDF and what jagjitnatt says on the topic and I share his views but I know Sancho and Spark love the Rafale.



Thanks Bro for suggesting that, Running cost for a period of time is monetary than the risk of buying a product which is not fully developed is higher risk in my opinion.

A2G capabilities are excellent with Rafale and its war proven. EF , I am yet to convince myself on that part. See i am not against EF, even thats a fantastic fighter. But we need to look at what it is in current form than what it will add in future. Future is open for both Fighters and scope for improvement is not limited to any technology.

In current state, Rafale is more a better fighter and more convincing than EF for me. BTW, i am also a member in IDF


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## Yeti

An acquisition of the Eurofighter Typhoon will create more than 20,000 high-skilled jobs in India and support the development of a self-reliant indigenous defence industry. India would gain access to a wide array of technologies from Europe's leading aerospace and defence companies avoiding over-dependence on a single source. Enzo Casolini, CEO of Eurofighter GmbH, emphasizes: &#8220;We are committed to Transfer of Technology because we want to enable India to manufacture this advanced combat aircraft itself and we want to see the country emerge as a truly global development partner.&#8221; 



Eurofighter: *News Detail

Reactions: Like Like:
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## SQ8

Yeti said:


> the Typhoon is considered the perfect "desert eagle". The aircraft already demonstrates its full capabilities in the arid, hot and humid climate of the Gulf region. Thanks to its exceptional thrust-to-weight ratio, the Typhoon suffers less than other fighters in the difficult environmental conditions and is able to exploit at full its payload capability and range performances.
> 
> The most advanced Helmet Mounted Symbology System (HMSS) which forms a key component of the Eurofighter Typhoon weapon system, improving tactical performance for Eurofighter pilots by providing essential flight and weapon aiming information through line of sight imagery.



Yes..but so does the Rafale

NO, there is no statement from any neutral source to verify this.. To each their own darling.. be it the EF consortium or the French.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Yeti

StrikeForce said:


> Thanks Bro for suggesting that, Running cost for a period of time is monetary than the risk of buying a product which is not fully developed is higher risk in my opinion.
> 
> A2G capabilities are excellent with Rafale and its war proven. EF , I am yet to convince myself on that part. See i am not against EF, even thats a fantastic fighter. But we need to look at what it is in current form than what it will add in future. Future is open for both Fighters and scope for improvement is not limited to any technology.
> 
> In current state, Rafale is more a better fighter and more convincing than EF for me. BTW, i am also a member in IDF


 

Im not sure Libya or Afghanistan mean the Rafale is war proven but I feel the EF has more growth potential for the future and is better suited to our climate as it has the best engines.


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## Yeti

Santro said:


> Yes..but so does the Rafale
> 
> NO, there is no statement from any neutral source to verify this.. To each their own darling.. be it the EF consortium or the French.




There are rumours that the EF was the top performer in the test trials but they are just that rumours.


RAF Typhoon leads the race to secure £7 billion arms deal - Telegraph


The Typhoon was already leading the pack after the jet scored highest in a technical assessment by Indian pilots who flew the aircraft in a series of exercises in 2010.


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## StrikeForce

Yeti said:


> Buddy spare parts on the EF is not a issue just ask the Saudis, people are making it a big thing when it's not.



Lets think about it in a 30 years Total Life Cycle of the fighter aircraft. Which will be better to trust.. Single or Multiple countries.


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## Yeti

Im sure everyone has seen this video before the bit about the wings able to take the weight of 35 VW golf cars is remarkable


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## Yeti

StrikeForce said:


> Lets think about it in a 30 years Total Life Cycle of the fighter aircraft. Which will be better to trust.. Single or Multiple countries.




France shafted us on the Mirage upgrade deal and today we have news that the Maitri deal with the French has fallen through.
The way the economies are going in EU they need this deal like a shot in the arm and will give more in terms of off-sets.


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## StrikeForce

illusion8 said:


> Thats where TOT is helpful, India can manufacture the parts under license by itself.



Please tell me even if its completely transferred, Do you think India will have all manufacturing units which can produce all the items incl nuts and bolts for the fighter. Best example is Bofors had 100% technology transfer and yet not made even single gun in India. Worse, they were not even aware until recently.

*Bofors reloaded: Defence ministry stung again

As the military top brass desperately look around for solutions to the crippling shortage of artillery guns, they stumbled upon the fact that India actually has the entire drawings of the Bofors guns, and had paid for the transfer of technology to manufacture the gun in India. But the Ordnance Factory Board sat on the drawings all these years, never attempting to make the gun in India. *

I am not saying, India might not use the transfer technology effectively. But there will be a share of manufacturing hubs across countries and each will make their own supply.

And to my knowledge, India herself did not ask for 100% ToT in their RFP's. Anyone knows exact percentage of ToT request in MMRCA deal.


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## Yeti

Video quality is poor but you can see how important EADS will be for the future of our defence needs and how we can build a partnership with the Euro countries.


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## kingdurgaking

Yeti said:


> Lower RCS is lower RCS does not matter if it is 5th gen or 3rd gen the concept still is the same.
> 
> As for being sanction proof what makes you think the EF in the future will have sanctions?



you are wrong dude.. lower RCS != lower RCS.... a 5m2 RCS is enough for taking a radar lock well over 100 KM... and if you add a couple of missile the RCS will be shooting more than 5m2... The Euro Zones except France take decision and will line themselves with US... France is the only country which has a independent policy and are neutral...


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## Yeti

kingdurgaking said:


> you are wrong dude.. lower RCS != lower RCS.... a 5m2 RCS is enough for taking a radar lock well over 100 KM... and if you add a couple of missile the RCS will be shooting more than 5m2... The Euro Zones except France take decision and will line themselves with US... France is the only country which has a independent policy and are neutral...




Im speaking about the RCS of the plane and from what I have read online the EF is the lower of the two. 

France and Germany are very close partners in the economic sense and both are Euro currency countries.

Check out this PDF if you have not already done so its got alot of info and is pretty intresting:

http://carnegieendowment.org/files/dogfight.pdf

---------- Post added at 06:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:05 PM ----------

Eurofighter: *Carbon Fibre Composites

The airframe surface area is made of 70% Carbon Fibre Composites (CFCs), 15% lightweight alloys and titanium, 12% Glass Reinforced Plastics (GRP) and 3% other materials. In other words, metals make up only 15% of the materials used in building a Eurofighter Typhoon.

In tandem with the aerodynamically unstable design, these strong but lightweight materials mean that the weight and size of the airframe and engine are 10 - 20% smaller and 30% lighter, than they would otherwise have been. This not only means that the aircraft has a reduced radar signature but is also stealthy.


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## StrikeForce

Yeti said:


> France shafted us on the Mirage upgrade deal and today we have news that the Maitri deal with the French has fallen through.
> The way the economies are going in EU they need this deal like a shot in the arm and will give more in terms of off-sets.



Yes, Rightly said we can negotiate with Dassault for the best deal. Even French govt needs this deal done to survive their defence industry.


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## kingdurgaking

Yeti said:


> I know all about the UAE tender and if the Rafale suits you so be it but we do not need to customise the EF or the Rafale to carry nukes in the first place.
> 
> We are moving away from the old days of sanctions, times have changed and Europe wants to have a strategic relationship with us moving away from a buyer/seller one.



Yes true we have move old days.. but do you know how many labs are still struggling to get the required hardware???? don't think all that glitters are gold... we have come a long way because of sanctions.. and the labs are still complain still there are restrictions.. 

secondly coming to carry nukes... customization is always there.. because the s/w developed by india will not be compatible with French or Euro... if it is compatible.. then it can be jammed.. so customization is always there in all the product..


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## Yeti

Even with its current underpowered engine, the Rafale&#8217;s aerodynamic
performance is excellent. Its sustained turning performance is comparable to
that of the Eurofi ghter and the MiG-35, but poorer than the F-16 (without
conformal fuel tanks) and the F/A-18, not to mention the Gripen. The Rafale
maneuvers best at low altitudes and slow speeds, but whether its opponents will
oblige it by fi ghting in this regime remains an open question. Its instantaneous
turn rates, however, are spectacular&#8212;in fact, far better than any of the other
MMRCA competitors&#8212;which makes it a formidable opponent in any
tactical situation when a sharp turn of the nose provides a fi ring advantage.

In such situations, however,
the Rafale also bleeds speed
dramatically. Th is could put it
at a disadvantage when facing
opponents with greater energy
reserves. In fact, the Rafale
probably has the highest bleed
rates of any MMRCA contestant
at any altitude.

---------- Post added at 06:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:14 PM ----------




kingdurgaking said:


> Yes true we have move old days.. but do you know how many labs are still struggling to get the required hardware???? don't think all that glitters are gold... we have come a long way because of sanctions.. and the labs are still complain still there are restrictions..
> 
> secondly coming to carry nukes... customization is always there.. because the s/w developed by india will not be compatible with French or Euro... if it is compatible.. then it can be jammed.. so customization is always there in all the product..




Some sactions are still in place don't believe all you heard when Obama said he will lift most of them, it still needs clearance on a case per case basis

---------- Post added at 06:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:16 PM ----------

Typhoon in air exercises conducted with the Royal Air Force and has been
favorably impressed by its performance. In the aftermath of the MMRCA
fl y-off s, a variety of stories appeared in the Indian press suggesting that the
Typhoon was in fact the IAF&#8217;s fi rst choice as far as all six competitors were
concerned.61 Th is conclusion is not implausible. Out of all the aircraft, the
Typhoon conformed most closely to the Request for Proposals, and in a purely
technical sense, it arguably remains the most sophisticated airplane in the
mix&#8212;at least in its fully mature confi guration, which is still gestating.
Th is engine output, along with its canard-coupled cropped delta-wing
airframe, enables it to achieve superb transonic maneuver as well as excellent
supersonic dash performance. In fact, the Eurofi ghter remains the only
aircraft among the MMRCA competitors to have demonstrated some sort of
supercruise capability (though this capability falls far short of the sustained
supercruise capability of the F-22A and the F-35). It also exhibits striking short
takeoff and landing performance.
Th e Typhoon&#8217;s integration of sensors is also remarkable.

Like the Rafale, the Typhoon &#8220;compensates&#8221; for the current lack of an
operational AESA radar with a superb IRST system&#8212;possibly the world&#8217;s
best&#8212;called the Passive Infra-Red Airborne Tracking Equipment (PIRATE).
Th e PIRATE system is capable of detecting targets at distances approaching
that of conventional radars. It combines a long-range IRST sensor operating
in the long-wave infrared band with a FLIR thermal imager that is capable of
passively searching, tracking and designating targets for weapons launch. All
system data is seamlessly integrated with the information collected by other
sensors to provide the pilot with a unifi ed track for each target.

Where sustained turn rate, for example, is concerned, the Typhoon is superior
to the MiG-35 and the Rafale, but yet cannot match the Gripen, which beats it
and all other aircraft irrespective of altitude.

Th e Typhoon&#8217;s instantaneous turn performance is
far better than the MiG-35 and the Gripen and comparable to the F-16IN
(without conformal tanks) and F/A-18E/F at all altitudes, but inferior to the
Rafale the closer both aircraft are to sea level. Th e Typhoon&#8217;s bleed rates are
high, comparable to the Rafale and the F/A-18E/F at all altitudes, but inferior
to the Gripen and the F-16IN (even when the latter fl ies with its conformal
fuel tanks).


----------



## kingdurgaking

Yeti said:


> Im speaking about the RCS of the plane and from what I have read online the EF is the lower of the two.
> 
> France and Germany are very close partners in the economic sense and both are Euro currency countries.
> 
> Check out this PDF if you have not already done so its got alot of info and is pretty intresting:
> 
> http://carnegieendowment.org/files/dogfight.pdf
> 
> ---------- Post added at 06:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:05 PM ----------
> 
> Eurofighter: *Carbon Fibre Composites
> 
> The airframe surface area is made of 70% Carbon Fibre Composites (CFCs), 15% lightweight alloys and titanium, 12% Glass Reinforced Plastics (GRP) and 3% other materials. In other words, metals make up only 15% of the materials used in building a Eurofighter Typhoon.
> 
> In tandem with the aerodynamically unstable design, these strong but lightweight materials mean that the weight and size of the airframe and engine are 10 - 20% smaller and 30% lighter, than they would otherwise have been. This not only means that the aircraft has a reduced radar signature but is also stealthy.


I guess this is a misconception here.... All you are taking is RCS in clean configuration.. but when you load something on the body or under the wing.. the RCS increases tremendously .... for (e.g.) the RCS of F-22 was more than 1M2 when it was loaded with a camera under its body during a exercise... the was done to deliberately to increase its RCS.... then think about loading a missile with FINS which are perpendicular to the body and has lot of reflective surface....

while Rafale worked perfectly against Libya the same can be said when it enters Pakistan Air space or any country of equal power... it all depends on situation...


----------



## kingdurgaking

Yeti said:


> Some sactions are still in place don't believe all you heard when Obama said he will lift most of them, it still needs clearance on a case per case basis




Yes this is what i am trying to explain him... as he believes the other way... But Sanctions has helped as a lot... so when we have our own aspiration and when we have to safeguard ourself.. nukes are important.. and we are not a permanent UNSC to do what ever we like.... until then we have to consider sanctions..


----------



## Yeti

kingdurgaking said:


> I guess this is a misconception here.... All you are taking is RCS in clean configuration.. but when you load something on the body or under the wing.. the RCS increases tremendously .... for (e.g.) the RCS of F-22 was more than 1M2 when it was loaded with a camera under its body during a exercise... the was done to deliberately to increase its RCS.... then think about loading a missile with FINS which are perpendicular to the body and has lot of reflective surface....
> 
> while Rafale worked perfectly against Libya the same can be said when it enters Pakistan Air space or any country of equal power... it all depends on situation...



You know I really do not mind if the Rafale or EF wins the deal as I like them both but one point that Jagjitnatt made got me thinking.

If God forbid we got into a future conflict with China we will have to face Chinese J-10, J-11, J-15, J-16, J-20 etc across the himalayas 

What fighter would you want to face them in BVR engagement the Rafale or the EF? I would take the EF and that's the only reason why.


----------



## StrikeForce

Eurofighter is more heavier than Rafale , Rafale carries more than EF

Some stats:


Aircraft: Dassault Rafale[48] Eurofighter Typhoon[49][50]

Manufacturer:	Dassault Aviation	Eurofighter GmbH

Length: 15.27 m	15.96 m
(50.1*ft)	(52*ft 5 in)

Wingspan: 10.80 m	10.95 m
(35.4*ft)	(35*ft 11 in)

Height: 5.34 m	5.28 m
(17.4*ft)	(17*ft 4 in)

Wing area: 45.7 m²	50.0 m²
(492*ft²)	(538*ft²)

Empty weight:	9,500*kg	11,000*kg
(20,940*lb)	(24,250*lb)

Maximum payload: 9,500*kg	7,500*kg
(21,000*lb)	(16,500*lb)

Maximum Takeoff 
Weight*(MTOW):	24,500*kg 23,500*kg
(54,000*lb) (51,800*lb)

Powerplant:	2×*SNECMA M88-2	2×*Eurojet EJ200
Thrust: 50*kN each 60*kN each
&#8226; Dry thrust:	(11,250*lbf) (13,500*lbf)
&#8226; Afterburner thrust:	75*kN each	90*kN each
(17,000*lbf) (20,250*lbf)

Fuel:*&#8226; Internal	4,700*kg 4,996*kg[68]
*********&#8226; External	7,500*kg	

Ferry range:	3,700+ *km 3,790*km[72]
***&#8226; Unrefueled: 
***&#8226; Extl. tanks 

Combat radius:	1,800*km	1,390*km on air defence with 10-min loiter[73]
Service ceiling:	17,000 m	19,812 m
(56,000*ft)	(65,000*ft)

Rate of climb:	305*m/s	315*m/s
(60,000*ft/min)	(62,000*ft/min)

Thrust/weight:	1.13	1.18


----------



## Yeti

kingdurgaking said:


> Yes this is what i am trying to explain him... as he believes the other way... But Sanctions has helped as a lot... so when we have our own aspiration and when we have to safeguard ourself.. nukes are important.. and we are not a permanent UNSC to do what ever we like.... until then we have to consider sanctions..




Sanctions shafted us on LCA in some ways but in other ways it will make us more determined.

But I do not agree that we will get sanctions again the world had changed alot since 9/11 and one must remember sanctions works both ways and America wants us to open our market like the FDI in retail to let firms like walmart in.


----------



## StrikeForce

Yeti said:


> You know I really do not mind if the Rafale or EF wins the deal as I like them both but one point that Jagjitnatt made got me thinking.
> 
> If God forbid we got into a future conflict with China we will have to face Chinese J-10, J-11, J-15, J-16, J-20 etc across the himalayas
> 
> What fighter would you want to face them in BVR engagement the Rafale or the EF? I would take the EF and that's the only reason why.



Even EF cant match its numbers...

Remember somewhere Sancho made a point yesterday or day before. Its not that for Dogfight. We should be effectively destroy at their bases even before its takeoff.

See if A2G with BVR capabilities Rafale is the best not EF and this needs very swift action and only Rafale with its current capability can pursue that.

If its a Dogfight, then Chinese can out number anything India buys or produces by itself.

I hope you agree...


----------



## Yeti

Rediff On The NeT: US sanctions hit progress on LCA and light chopper projects


Sanctions did have a effect on our programs but i can't see sanctions being placed in the future as times have changed.

---------- Post added at 07:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:20 PM ----------




StrikeForce said:


> Even EF cant match its numbers...
> 
> Remember somewhere Sancho made a point yesterday or day before. Its not that for Dogfight. We should be effectively destroy at their bases even before its takeoff.
> 
> See if A2G with BVR capabilities Rafale is the best not EF and this needs very swift action and only Rafale with its current capability can pursue that.
> 
> If its a Dogfight, then Chinese can out number anything India buys or produces by itself.
> 
> I hope you agree...




What bases will you destroy? 90% of Chinese airbases are too far anyway

---------- Post added at 07:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:21 PM ----------


----------



## Yeti

Yes I agree the Chinese have numerical supremacy thats why I would go for the cutting edge EF in BVR mode to face them but thats just my choice.


----------



## illusion8

StrikeForce said:


> Please tell me even if its completely transferred, Do you think India will have all manufacturing units which can produce all the items incl nuts and bolts for the fighter. Best example is Bofors had 100% technology transfer and yet not made even single gun in India. Worse, they were not even aware until recently.
> 
> *Bofors reloaded: Defence ministry stung again
> 
> As the military top brass desperately look around for solutions to the crippling shortage of artillery guns, they stumbled upon the fact that India actually has the entire drawings of the Bofors guns, and had paid for the transfer of technology to manufacture the gun in India. But the Ordnance Factory Board sat on the drawings all these years, never attempting to make the gun in India. *
> 
> I am not saying, India might not use the transfer technology effectively. But there will be a share of manufacturing hubs across countries and each will make their own supply.
> 
> And to my knowledge, India herself did not ask for 100% ToT in their RFP's. Anyone knows exact percentage of ToT request in MMRCA deal.



Its not necessary that one repeats the old mistakes again, Indian Aero industry has matured a bit and the MMRCA is an important deal for India, HAL is upgrading its facilities to make full use of the transfer of technology and to be an active manufacturer to aid it in maturing itself to start building India's indigenous aircrafts. TOT will be 100% in the case of EF, but India will be the fifth manufacturer in the consortium and with it it will bring a host of benefits to the aircraft itself, besides the order will revitalise the existing production lines in Europe and shortage of parts will not be an issue due to this in the near future. Indian Aero industry is taking this deal seriously resulting in the delay that we are witnessing. Some glitches will be apparent but the new consortium can gear up rectify it. This deal if used effectively will greatly aid us in our future productions.

The french rafale is most definitely out, so no point discussing it other than if the french give us a way better deal, the EF has proved to be the plane of choice and the price quote is cheaper than rafale. The downside is if this deal does not go through it will result in dassault closing down its production which is sad cos the rafale is a great plane.


----------



## sancho

ziaulislam said:


> mosts of the member say that MRCA only real valid reason is TOT however i disagree..india could easily have gotten much technology as sub systems for their LCA and or AMCA the future jet instead of wasting over 20 billion dollars in MRCA...



First of all, LCA isn't available, otherwise we wouldn't need a new fighter.
Secondly, it's not only ToT but also the offsets that gives Indian companies the chance to make JV, co-development or at least take over parts of the production of the foreign vendors, which improves them by far. The competition alone made US and several Europeans to form JV with Indian counterparts and we wouldn't have got this chance without this procurement.
Also it's simply wrong that you can get the same ToT by just procureing parts and the best example is the Gripen E/F, which gets Swashplate AESA, IRST and even some parts of the EWS from EF consortium companies, that are even based on EFs systems and still it was provenly technically less capable than the EF. Why? because you sell downgraded parts to normal export customers, same reason why the US offered F16IN with the AN/APG-80 AESA radar, but customers that just want to upgrade their F16s or other fighters with US AESA gets only the Raytheon RACR AESA, which is meant to be an export AESA.



Yeti said:


> How is Rafale a better product to the EF? when EF has better performance and lower RCS



Depends on what performance you are talking? Multi role, strike, passive systems, low observability, cost-effectivity, suitability to IAF fleet... there are many performance fields where the Rafale is better. The lower RCS is more than debatable since there are no reliable sources and compared just by RCS reduction features the Rafale might even have the upper hand too.
Btw, don't compare the TWR of the current EF with that of the EF offered in MMRCA, since it is likely to be much heavier than it is now with the Swashplate AESA.



Yeti said:


> Strikeforce check out the Eurofighter vs Rafale thread on IDF and what jagjitnatt says on the topic and I share his views but I know Sancho and Spark love the Rafale.



That has nothing to do with love for a fighter but with wanting the best for Indian forces and the EF currently don't fit the bill.



Yeti said:


> Buddy spare parts on the EF is not a issue just ask the Saudis, people are making it a big thing when it's not.



It is, that's why British, Germans and Austrian are complainin about it, I posted sources about this some days ago.




Yeti said:


> There are rumours that the EF was the top performer in the test trials but they are just that rumours.
> 
> 
> RAF Typhoon leads the race to secure £7 billion arms deal - Telegraph



 Exactly rumors in British and Italian media reports, published before the EF did the trials.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## StrikeForce

Yeti said:


> Yes I agree the Chinese have numerical supremacy thats why I would go for the cutting edge EF in BVR mode to face them but thats just my choice.



Rest assured, Chinese might not use its entire fleet against even in all out war with India. It need to defend its other boundaries as well which it confronts with Vietnam,Russia,Taiwan,Japan,South Korea,Malaysia,Indonesia, etc(which has border issues with). Lets hope we will be able to take down their birds before they takeoff. 

I meant taking down the set targets like airstrips/radar stations/ground attack troops which they have across LAC first. if they start that far then by the time they reach our borders, they will not be able to penetrate deep into our territory. So they will very well start from LAC.

Even as you said EF is better in Dogfighting, tell me in what ratio they get superiority with PLAAF. Here the game is more than just numbers but ground attacks which will keep the enemy guessing and traumatised.

EF is yet to prove its war worthiness!


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## Yeti

@Sancho there are also reports that the EF actually didnt do that bad in Libya considering


LIBYA: RAF Typhoon drops first bombs in combat


Eurofighter: *News Detail

---------- Post added at 07:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:44 PM ----------




StrikeForce said:


> Rest assured, Chinese might not use its entire fleet against even in all out war with India. It need to defend its other boundaries as well which it confronts with Vietnam,Russia,Taiwan,Japan,South Korea,Malaysia,Indonesia, etc(which has border issues with). Lets hope we will be able to take down their birds before they takeoff.
> 
> I meant taking down the set targets like airstrips/radar stations/ground attack troops which they have across LAC first. if they start that far then by the time they reach our borders, they will not be able to penetrate deep into our territory. So they will very well start from LAC.
> 
> Even as you said EF is better in Dogfighting, tell me in what ratio they get superiority with PLAAF. Here the game is more than just numbers but ground attacks which will keep the enemy guessing and traumatised.
> 
> EF is yet to prove its war worthiness!




But where will the battle take place? up in the high skys of the Himalayas where the EF will be king or the low sea level where Rafale turn rate is better?


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## Yeti

The Hindu : News / National : Typhoon outdid Rafale in Libya, claims four-nation consortium


biased article


----------



## StrikeForce

illusion8 said:


> Its not necessary that one repeats the old mistakes again, Indian Aero industry has matured a bit and the MMRCA is an important deal for India, HAL is upgrading its facilities to make full use of the transfer of technology and to be an active manufacturer to aid it in maturing itself to start building India's indigenous aircrafts. TOT will be 100% in the case of EF, but India will be the fifth manufacturer in the consortium and with it it will bring a host of benefits to the aircraft itself, besides the order will revitalise the existing production lines in Europe and shortage of parts will not be an issue due to this in the near future. Indian Aero industry is taking this deal seriously resulting in the delay that we are witnessing. Some glitches will be apparent but the new consortium can gear up rectify it. This deal if used effectively will greatly aid us in our future productions.
> 
> The french rafale is most definitely out, so no point discussing it other than if the french give us a way better deal, the EF has proved to be the plane of choice and the price quote is cheaper than rafale. The downside is if this deal does not go through it will result in dassault closing down its production which is sad cos the rafale is a great plane.



So where did you get that message from before even the official declaration of who won the MMRCA deal.


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## illusion8

^^^ a little birdy in HAL told me, but thats besides the point, Its a probability with a high percentage going by a few developments.


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## Yeti

Decision on Multi Role Combat Aircraft deal in 10 days - The Economic Times


10 Days more guys and the wait is over


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## StrikeForce

Yeti said:


> The Hindu : News / National : Typhoon outdid Rafale in Libya, claims four-nation consortium
> 
> 
> biased article



Any other country says this which is not part of Consortium. I will believe it. There are enough evidence/news/articles to support Rafale did better than EF during Libyan operations. Their ground targetattacks were an absolute marvel to watch for.


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## Yeti

StrikeForce said:


> Any other country says this which is not part of Consortium. I will believe it. There are enough evidence/news/articles to support Rafale did better than EF during Libyan operations.




I agree the Rafale did better but the EF can only get better in A2G mode so has a better future in my opinion


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## sancho

Yeti said:


> @Sancho there are also reports that the EF actually didnt do that bad in Libya considering



You might want to check this to get a real picture about it:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/4347-mrca-news-discussions-381.html#post2243700




Yeti said:


> I agree the Rafale did better but the EF can only get better in A2G mode so has a better future in my opinion



The EF can indeed get better, but none of the current partners is ready to pay for upgrades, because they are in a bad financial situation. That's the reason why they want us to be a partner and why they want to sell us their initial T3B orders at reduced costs, because as a partner we would have to take a part of the development costs, in this case of the further developments!


----------



## Yeti

sancho said:


> You might want to check this to get a real picture about it:
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/4347-mrca-news-discussions-381.html#post2243700
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The EF can indeed get better, but none of the current partners is ready to pay for upgrades, because they are in a bad financial situation. That's the reason why they want us to be a partner and why they want to sell us their initial T3B orders at reduced costs, because as a partner we would have to take a part of the development costs, in this case of the further developments!




But what if the EF consortium win more deals in the future? not to mention the Saudis will place more orders for them so can not the costs be shared in your view?


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## StrikeForce

Yeti said:


> I agree the Rafale did better but the EF can only get better in A2G mode so has a better future in my opinion



So, net net Rafale is better than EF ...Thats the difference. Who i will go for... A finished good product or a product with lot of promises which might take another 4 years extra. Can the IAF afford to wait few extra years. Can we meet the objective of 42 squadrons in near future.. Think bro Think


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## Yeti

The same logic can be applied to Rafale how many countries fly it? just 1

---------- Post added at 08:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:19 PM ----------




StrikeForce said:


> So, net net Rafale is better than EF ...Thats the difference. Who i will go for... A finished good product or a product with lot of promises which might take another 4 years extra. Can the IAF afford to wait few extra years. Can we meet the objective of 42 squadrons in near future.. Think bro Think




In A2G mode for now yes the rafale is better but for me ill pick the EF  but hey only 10 days more to go till we find out


----------



## sancho

Yeti said:


> But what if the EF consortium win more deals in the future? not to mention the Saudis will place more orders for them so can not the costs be shared in your view?



Which orders? EF lost in Switzerland, lost in Japan, Oman most likely will not go for EFs since they now bought additional F16s and they were speculated to buy 2nd RAF EFs anyway, which means no new order. The only competition they are in at the moment are Malaysia and Qatar, both for low numbers and with not good chances. The Saudis are the only possibility to get some funds and a follow order of 48 x EFs, but with the huge F15 order that is doubtful as well, not to forget that they are not happy with the EF, since the assembly in Saudi Arabia didn't work, the their fighters are delayed and the upgrade is still not fixed.
No matter what, the EF needs a win in MMRCA and India as a funder, otherwise the production will stop in 2017 and that was even confirmed by the EF consortium!


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## Yeti

France has raised concerns over the future of the Rafale programme, which has struggled to find foreign buyers to support a project that has so far cost more than 40 billion euros ($51 billion).



.:Middle East Online::France still looking for Rafale buyers in GCC:.


Such a good plane but no orders of yet


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## StrikeForce

Yeti said:


> But what if the EF consortium win more deals in the future? not to mention the Saudis will place more orders for them so can not the costs be shared in your view?



What if they dont win...Wont the burden will be on India as well as a partner.


----------



## Yeti

sancho said:


> Which orders? EF lost in Switzerland, lost in Japan, Oman most likely will not go for EFs since they now bought additional F16s and they were speculated to buy 2nd RAF EFs anyway, which means no new order. The only competition they are in at the moment are Malaysia and Qatar, both for low numbers and with not good chances. The Saudis are the only possibility to get some funds and a follow order of 48 x EFs, but with the huge F15 order that is doubtful as well, not to forget that they are not happy with the EF, since the assembly in Saudi Arabia didn't work, the their fighters are delayed and the upgrade is still not fixed.
> No matter what, the EF needs a win in MMRCA and India as a funder, otherwise the production will stop in 2017 and that was even confirmed by the EF consortium!




It is not a lost Sancho.

Take Japan who was always going to win? f35 so thats a non-issue


Switzerland the only reason was cost they picked the lower of the 2 and that was the Gripen why do they need a twin engine EF for in the first place?



The Gripen is not the highest performing of the three contenders, he said, but it meets the Swiss requirement and offers the lowest acquisition and maintenance costs. Swiss media earlier reported that the Eurofighter offer was about $4.3 billion, and the Rafale in the middle range between the Typhoon and the Gripen.


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## StrikeForce

Yeti said:


> But what if the EF consortium win more deals in the future? not to mention the Saudis will place more orders for them so can not the costs be shared in your view?



What if they dont win...Wont the burden will be on India as well as a partner.


----------



## Yeti

The choice came as a relative surprise in Switzerland after media reported several days ago that the Swedish plane had not fully passed technical tests. A Paris-based analyst specialising in the air defence industry said the Rafale option was considerably more expensive and had little chance of winning the contract however.

Saab admitted it made "huge concessions over the price to ensure it got the contract", the analyst said, while adding that the deal could still be put to a referendum if there was sufficient opposition.

Saab said Wednesday it was "proud and delighted" over Switzerland's decision.

"Given that Switzerland is known globally for applying (the) highest procurement standards and requesting state-of-the art technologies, Saab is both proud and delighted that Gripen has been chosen as the Swiss Air Force's future multirole fighter aircraft," Saab said in a statement.

The Swiss selection "confirms that Saab is a market-leader in the defence and security industry and that Gripen is a world-class fighter system that provides the best value for money", Saab CEO and president Haakan Buskhe said.

---------- Post added at 08:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:27 PM ----------




StrikeForce said:


> What if they dont win...Wont the burden will be on India as well as a partner.




Just take this into account how many countries fly the EF? and how many fly the Rafale?


----------



## sancho

Yeti said:


> It is not a lost Sancho.
> 
> Take Japan who was always going to win? f35 so thats a non-issue
> 
> 
> Switzerland the only reason was cost they picked the lower of the 2 and that was the Gripen why do they need a twin engine EF for in the first place?



LOL, come on. The outcome was clear, that's why Dassault was so smart no to attend the competition, the EF consortium were simply desperate and tried it, but they lost out.
Wrt Switzerland, even I often stated that they don't need anything else than the Gripen, even the Mirage 2000-9 would be way more than enough. But that's not important, since they had their own requirments and according to their evaluation, Rafale was rated as techincally best fighter, cheaper and more cost-effective to operate than the EF? If they had the money, they would have taken Rafale, but they didn't and now compromised with a fighter that is not even fiting to their own requirements.
The simple fact that MMRCA is the first competition where EF was shortlisted to the final stage, tells enough about it's chances on export markets and the resons to reject it were always the same. Too expensive, not capable enough!



Yeti said:


> Just take this into account how many countries fly the EF? and how many fly the Rafale?



Whats the difference? Is the EF cheaper because it has 4 partners? No, because it's development cost were higher than Rafales. Is it more upgraded and capable than Rafale? No because all partners are cuting their defence budgets big times and canceling their orders.
From this point of view, it was even an advantage for Rafale, the the French did it alone!

Gtg, G8 all!


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## Yeti

sancho said:


> LOL, come on. The outcome was clear, that's why Dassault was so smart no to attend the competition, the EF consortium were simply desperate and tried it, but they lost out.
> Wrt Switzerland, even I often stated that they don't need anything else than the Gripen, even the Mirage 2000-9 would be way more than enough. But that's not important, since they had their own requirments and according to their evaluation, Rafale was rated as techincally best fighter, cheaper and more cost-effective to operate than the EF? If they had the money, they would have taken Rafale, but they didn't and now compromised with a fighter that is not even fiting to their own requirements.
> The simple fact that MMRCA is the first competition where EF was shortlisted to the final stage, tells enough about it's chances on export markets and the resons to reject it were always the same. Too expensive, not capable enough!




Buddy how can you say Dassault did not care about that tender? when they issued a statement after they lost:


Dassault wasn&#8217;t very happy, though they did concede that the Gripen beat them on price:

&#8220;*The RAFALE&#8217;s capacities would enable the Swiss Confederation to meet its operational requirements with a smaller number of aircraft [emphasis DID&#8217;s] at an equivalent or lower cost, as was demonstrated during the assessments&#8230;. The &#8220;Swiss-tailored&#8221; GRIPEN only exists on paper. Its technical development and production risk significantly increasing the financial efforts required of the Swiss Authorities to accomplish the country&#8217;s fighter aircraft program. RAFALE INTERNATIONAL extends its sincere thanks the 250 Swiss companies that took part in its industrial partnership project in the 26 cantons of the Swiss Confederation.&#8221;*


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## sancho

Yeti said:


> Buddy how can you say Dassault did not care about that tender?


Japan, not Switzerland!


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## StrikeForce

Yeti said:


> The choice came as a relative surprise in Switzerland after media reported several days ago that the Swedish plane had not fully passed technical tests. A Paris-based analyst specialising in the air defence industry said the Rafale option was considerably more expensive and had little chance of winning the contract however.
> 
> Saab admitted it made "huge concessions over the price to ensure it got the contract", the analyst said, while adding that the deal could still be put to a referendum if there was sufficient opposition.
> 
> Saab said Wednesday it was "proud and delighted" over Switzerland's decision.
> 
> "Given that Switzerland is known globally for applying (the) highest procurement standards and requesting state-of-the art technologies, Saab is both proud and delighted that Gripen has been chosen as the Swiss Air Force's future multirole fighter aircraft," Saab said in a statement.
> 
> The Swiss selection "confirms that Saab is a market-leader in the defence and security industry and that Gripen is a world-class fighter system that provides the best value for money", Saab CEO and president Haakan Buskhe said.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 08:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:27 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just take this into account how many countries fly the EF? and how many fly the Rafale?



If India selects Rafale , then immediately Brazil and UAE may follow. However on Switzerland selecting Gripen, Thats best suited for their defence requirements. The size of Aksai Chin is Switzerland and they dont have any border issues with any nuclear countries. They are all united under EU. Their decision is the best and that does not mean Saab Gripen is better than EF or Rafale.


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## Yeti

EF is still in the UAE tender even though the Rafale is bookies fave to win.

---------- Post added at 08:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:42 PM ----------




sancho said:


> Japan, not Switzerland!




Japan  come on Sancho there was always going to be only one winner you and me both know that


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## illusion8

460 pages and we amongst ourselves haven't been able to decide which is a better plane, I pity the guys at the Ministry of Defense.


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## Yeti

Most experts say the Eurofighter's Typhoon&#8212;priced somewhere between the F-18 and the F-35&#8212;is a worthy contender for Japan's air-defense needs. But it faces an uphill battle due to pressure from Washington, which, as Tokyo's top security ally, has quietly pushed the case for a U.S. jet. As a result, they say the F-35 is the top contender, followed by the F-18.

"It's the Americans' competition to lose," said James Hardy, a senior analyst for Asian Pacific region with Jane's Defense Weekly. "The fact is that the U.S. is Japan's security partner, and the Japanese Air Self Defense Force has flown U.S. planes since the 1970s."


Japan Weighs Options for Expensive Fighter Jets - WSJ.com

we all know Japan will pick US Fighter


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## Yeti

I don't mind who will win the tender but im thinking of facing China in the future thats why I prefer the EF


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## Yeti

StrikeForce said:


> What if they dont win...Wont the burden will be on India as well as a partner.



See look at it this way already there are 6 countries that operate the EF if India picks it that will make 7 but for now there is only France who has the Rafale.


http://articles.businessinsider.com/2011-12-07/europe/30484969_1_gripen-fighter-jets-dassault-french-air-force

France Might Stop Producing Its Fighter Jet As No One Is Buying It


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## sancho

A new week, so new rumors:



> *MMRCA bid winner in 10 days*
> 
> The government is expected to announce who bags the contract for the multi-million dollar medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) for the Indian Ari Force (IAF) in the next 10 days...



MMRCA bid winner in 10 days | Deccan Chronicle




> *Final word on IAF fighter deal soon*
> 
> India is set to announce the winner of the multi-billion dollar deal to procure next generation fighters by the end of this month with complex calculations to find the cheapest option set to conclude over the next few days...



Final word on IAF fighter deal soon - Indian Express


Interestingly the only more or less official statement comes from Serge Dassault, president of Groupe Dassault, although it's unlcear about which competition he talks:



> *Serge Dassault confident about a first Rafale export soon ?*
> 
> Sunday January 15, during a debate about French economic issues on I-Tele, Senator Serge Dassault, president of Groupe Dassault, estimates that good news about Rafale export could be announced soon. However, he didn't tell which country could be concerned by this export.
> The current 3 main export prospects for the Rafale are India, the UAE and Brazil.



Rafale News: Serge Dassault confident about a first Rafale export soon ?


----------



## danger007

sancho said:


> A new week, so new rumors:
> 
> 
> 
> MMRCA bid winner in 10 days | Deccan Chronicle
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Final word on IAF fighter deal soon - Indian Express
> 
> 
> Interestingly the only more or less official statement comes from Serge Dassault, president of Groupe Dassault, although it's unlcear about which competition he talks:
> 
> 
> 
> Rafale News: Serge Dassault confident about a first Rafale export soon ?



I guess it would be on Jan-26. hope not any further delays.


----------



## The enlightened

Will we get AIM-120D with EF.


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## sancho

The enlightened said:


> Will we get AIM-120D with EF.



That version was never integrated and EF partners plan to replace them with METEOR, there might be a higher focus on integrating METEOR to Captor M and the future AESA.


----------



## The enlightened

sancho said:


> That version was never integrated and EF partners plan to replace them with METEOR, there might be a higher focus on integrating METEOR to Captor M and the future AESA.


Currently there are no plans for AIM-120D, but since we will be paying for a lot of upgrades, why not try one with the cheaper[my imagination] but probably equally effective missile, after all we'll be needing them in the thousands


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## sancho

The enlightened said:


> Currently there are no plans for AIM-120D, but since we will be paying for a lot of upgrades, why not try one with the cheaper[my imagination] but probably equally effective missile, after all we'll be needing them in the thousands



The biggest advantage of METEOR is said to be, that it maintains the high speed throughout the whole flight, while current missiles have full speed only at launch and then gets slower. The speed advantage of METEOR increases the no escape zone and the kill probability. The US have started similar developments to improve Amraam in future, but that will take some time and with many European countries not buying it anymore, the unit cost of Amraam gets higher too.
Btw, why do you think we need 1000s of these missiles? Each EF carries 4 BVR missiles x 126 fighters = 504 missiles. Even if we take the same numbers as spares, we hardly hit 1000 and don't forget that no other fighter in IAF fleet will be able to use them except of MMRCAs! It's more likely that we will go for 1000s of Astra, since MKI, LCA, Mig 29SMT & K will use it and by the fact that it will replace R77.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## StrikeForce

danger007 said:


> I guess it would be on Jan-26. hope not any further delays.



Hopefully not later than that...


----------



## The enlightened

Then, maybe we will have METEOR for good. By the way is it any more resistant to jamming like DRFM.


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## rockstarIN

> will use it and by the fact that it will replace R77.



Will it?

The range seems to be less for Astra then R-77 and the seekers are same. 

Astra II with Ramjet engine might replace R-77s


----------



## RPK

*
EADS Snubs Last-Minute BAE Offer For Jet-Fighter Bid Role - Source - WSJ.com*

LONDON (Dow Jones)--European Aeronautic Defence & Space Co. (EAD.FR) has snubbed a last-minute approach by its Eurofighter Typhoon partner BAE Systems PLC (BA.LN) to become a joint prime bidder for an estimated $10-billion Indian air-force jet deal, a person familiar with the matter said.

India may shortly make a decision on replacing its ageing air arm with 126 new fighter jets. Dassault Aviation S.A.'s (AM.FR) Rafale fighter jet and the Eurofighter Typhoon are the two remaining aircraft in contention.

The person said that BAE Systems had approached EADS whose Germany-based Cassidian unit is a prime bidder.

EADS had been "flattered" but had "politely" declined to bring BAE into the bidding process at such a late stage, the person said. EADS had already taken the majority of the risk to get to the final stages of bidding and negotiating work-share terms, the person noted. EADS has determined the levels of production that could potentially be done within India itself. Levels of technology transfer and possible investment in the country, known as offset, are also part of the negotiations.

BAE Systems had no comment on the possibility of a joint-prime bid for the Indian contract but noted its role within the Eurofighter consortium.

"Bids for the Indian MMRCA (Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft) competition were submitted in the third quarter of 2011 supported by BAE Systems and the other Typhoon partners," a spokesman for the U.K. defense group said.

The Eurofighter consortium is made up of BAE Systems, Italy's Finmeccanica SPA (FNC.MI) and EADS. Different members of the consortium have taken the lead in bidding for possible contracts with government customers. Prime bidders can expect a larger share of the future benefits of a successful deal than other consortium partners.

BAE was the prime bidder for order with Japan but lost out in late December to Lockheed Martin Corp.'s (LMT) F-35 Lightning II Joint Striker Fighter. BAE Systems is also prime bidder for contracts in Malaysia and Qatar and has previously secured a Typhoon order from Saudi Arabia.

Earlier this year, the British company said it hadn't yet agreed with Saudi Arabia the next stage of the country's Typhoon order and that a "significant cash payment," which analysts estimated at GBP500 million, would be deferred until negotiations were completed. That raised concerns BAE wouldn't be able to meet a forecast of stable 2011 underlying earnings a share compared with the previous year.

Under the 126 Indian fighter-jet order, the first 18 jets will be bought in "fly-away" condition and the remainder will be produced with the selected vendor in India.

--Kaveri Niththyananthan, Dow Jones Newswires; 4420 7842 9299; kaveri.niththyananthan@dowjones.com

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## trident2010

*India may choose winner of fighter jet contract in 2 weeks*


NEW DELHI: India may announce the lowest bidder for a contract worth about $10 billion to buy fighter jets for the country's airforce in the next two weeks, N A K Browne, chief of the Indian Air Force said.

The Eurofighter, a four-nation consortium, and France's Dassault are left in the race to sell India 126 fighter jets and help revamp the country's defence industry in line with its rising global clout. American, Russian and Swedish bids were rejected in April.

"I am hopeful that in another two weeks' time we will be able to shortlist the name," Browne told Reuters on the sidelines of an event.

Eurofighter, which makes the Typhoon fighter jet, is a four-nation consortium of EADS, representing Germany and Spain, Britain's BAE Systems and Italy's Finmeccanica.

Their competitor is France's Dassault, which makes the Rafale plane.



India may choose winner of fighter jet contract in 2 weeks - The Times of India

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## Gandhi G in da house

trident2010 said:


> *India may choose winner of fighter jet contract in 2 weeks*
> 
> 
> NEW DELHI: India may announce the lowest bidder for a contract worth about $10 billion to buy fighter jets for the country's airforce in the next two weeks, N A K Browne, chief of the Indian Air Force said.
> 
> The Eurofighter, a four-nation consortium, and France's Dassault are left in the race to sell India 126 fighter jets and help revamp the country's defence industry in line with its rising global clout. American, Russian and Swedish bids were rejected in April.
> 
> "I am hopeful that in another two weeks' time we will be able to shortlist the name," Browne told Reuters on the sidelines of an event.
> 
> Eurofighter, which makes the Typhoon fighter jet, is a four-nation consortium of EADS, representing Germany and Spain, Britain's BAE Systems and Italy's Finmeccanica.
> 
> Their competitor is France's Dassault, which makes the Rafale plane.
> 
> 
> 
> India may choose winner of fighter jet contract in 2 weeks - The Times of India


 Didnt they say 10 days remaining just 2 days ago ?


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## Abingdonboy

nick_indian said:


> Didnt they say 10 days remaining just 2 days ago ?



C'mon mate, you must know the score by now. Different sources, different interpretations and sheer lies by some journos.

Sometime this month is what I'd expect.

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## Jason bourne

Abingdonboy said:


> C'mon mate, you must know the score by now. Different sources, different interpretations and sheer lies by some journos.
> 
> Sometime this month is what I'd expect.



i am bit more positive expecting news this week ....


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## StrikeForce

Same info but different source:

India may pick winner of fighter jet contract in 2 weeks


By Nigam Prusty
NEW DELHI | Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:16pm IST
(Reuters) - India may decide in the next two weeks whether the Eurofighter consortium or France's Dassault has won a contract for fighter jets, N A K Browne, chief of the Indian Air Force said, in a deal potentially worth about $10 billion.

India plans to spend $50 billion over the next five years to upgrade its military, which largely consists of Soviet-era gear, to counter the rising might of China and threats from Pakistan.

The Eurofighter, a four-nation consortium, and Dassault are left in the race to sell India 126 fighter jets and help revamp the country's defence industry in line with its rising global clout. American, Russian and Swedish bids were rejected in April.

*"I am hopeful that in another two weeks' time we will be able to shortlist the name," Browne told Reuters* on the sidelines of an event. He declined to comment on who could be the winner of the contract.

Some Indian media have reported that the Eurofighter Typhoon may emerge the lowest bidder. Eurofighter is a four-nation consortium of EADS (EAD.PA), representing Germany and Spain, Britain's BAE Systems (BAES.L) and Italy's Finmeccanica (SIFI.MI). Dassault makes the Rafale.

"Right now we have to do the selection of who is going to be shortlisted," Browne said.

He also said the end of current financial year on March 31 would have no bearing on the order.

Once selected, the government will enter into negotiations with the lowest bidder to finalise the terms and contract value, which may take three to four months.

"Once we shortlist, the commercial negotiations will start with the vendor," Browne said.

India is the world's largest arms importer, accounting for 9 percent of the global arms trade between 2006 and 2010, according to data from Swedish think-tank Stockholm International Peace Research Institute.

"With a potential contract price of $9 billion to $14 billion, this is the single biggest competition in the global defence aviation industry at the moment and offers both bidders a much-needed opportunity in a major market," James Hardy, Asia Pacific Editor at IHS Jane's Defence Weekly had written in an email statement in November.

(Reporting by Nigam Prusty; Writing by Manoj Kumar; Editing by Aradhana Aravindan)

Source:
India may pick winner of fighter jet contract in 2 weeks | Reuters

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## Gandhi G in da house

Abingdonboy said:


> C'mon mate, you must know the score by now. Different sources, different interpretations and sheer lies by some journos.
> 
> Sometime this month is what I'd expect.



If they keep changing scores like this , most people's interest in the whole damn thing will be bowled out if it hasn't happened already .

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## sancho

rockstar said:


> Will it?
> 
> The range seems to be less for Astra then R-77 and the seekers are same.
> 
> Astra II with Ramjet engine might replace R-77s



At least that's the plan and taking the maximum range as the only important spec of a missile is a mistake anyway, since nobody will fire a BVR missile at maximum range because of the no escape zone. Another point why Astra might replace R77s are the issues with the service life and quality of certain parts. Might also be a reason why IAF went with integrating Derby for LCA instead of R77.


Besides all the baseless rumors and unnamed sources in the reports of last week, we now interestingly have Serge Dassault and the IAF Chief stating that something happens in the next 2 weeks. I just hope the earlier meant the MMRCA!


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## ziaulislam

janon said:


> Most of the important ToT is related to the manufacturing process. That can't be "bought" for the LCA. This will hopefully give India a quantum leap in its aerospace manufacturing sector, and experience in western production methods.
> 
> 200 LCA and 300 MKIs would still leave a shortfall of about 300 aircrafts until the PAKFA and AMCA arrive. The AMCA is not arriving for another 15 years. Also, MKIs would be the only aircraft with long range capabilities. One technical snag can ground the entire fleet, it is not a good idea to have all your expeditionary capability fulfilled by one kind. Also, the MRCAs are immensely cheaper to operate than the MKIs, and require far less maintainance. Since we are talking about 25-30 years of service, that would in itself be a huge cost saving factor - which is of course the rationale for having medium category aircrafts in addition to heavy ones.


sir not want to discuss this in MRCA thread but wasnt PAKfa meant to get operational by 2020 at the LATEST. uptill then and beyond india plans to keep its mig 29,mirage 2000, jaugers and atleast some mig21 & mig 27. meaning that if india had 200 LCAs and 300MKIs it could have easily waited for the 250 PAKfas whose induction is suppose to be completed by 2030 to LATEST
as i see it LCAs will be sacrficed by the MRCA.
anyway coming to MRCA i dont understand why india is delaying so much even after the techn evaluation, to me eurofighters is the winner but indians always surprise me and french use all methods at their disposal to get their deals done.


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## janon

ziaulislam said:


> sir not want to discuss this in MRCA thread but wasnt PAKfa meant to get operational by 2020 at the LATEST. uptill then and beyond india plans to keep its mig 29,mirage 2000, jaugers and atleast some mig21 & mig 27. meaning that if india had 200 LCAs and 300MKIs it could have easily waited for the 250 PAKfas whose induction is suppose to be completed by 2030 to LATEST
> as i see it LCAs will be sacrficed by the MRCA.
> anyway coming to MRCA i dont understand why india is delaying so much even after the techn evaluation, to me eurofighters is the winner but indians always surprise me and french use all methods at their disposal to get their deals done.



The mig 21s will be gone long before then. The plan is to retire the bisons by 2017, and other 21s by 2015. The mig 27s too won't serve until 2020, if I remember correctly. You are right about the others. Of those, the jaguars wont have any air combat capability, nor the 27s. So the only ones that can match the huge fleet or 4th generation fighters on the east are the mig 29 and mirage 2000, together which make up about 120. At the rate at which we are producing MKIs, it will take another 6 or 7 years to get the rest of our planned 272 MKIs. We couldn't have gotten 300 by 2020, unless we bought a lot directly from Irkut. Coming to the LCA, even if they had begun inducting them in 2010, 5 years earlier than current plans and 7 years earlier than he current plans for mark 2, we wouldn't have reached 200 by 2020.But by 2020, there would be a shortfall of 150 mig 21s from the present fleet, and maybe mig 27s as well. As it is, we are short of about 7 squadrons. So to remain safe WRT China, MRCA aquisition is a must. So irregardless of the Tejas delays, we would have needed MRCAs. Or look at it this way - even if we had 300 MKI, 200 LCA and 120 other fighters in service, thats 620. PLAAF has about that many 4th generation fighters, including flanker variants. And it has another 500 or so older generation fighters. If we want to have some parity, we need these cutting edge technologically superior aircrafts from the west.

If our threat was only pakistan, you would be right, LCAs and MKIs togther with the other aircrafts would have sufficed. Another factor is increasing the reach of the IAF, and having much more power projection capabilities over longer ranges than we have at present. The LCAs won't help with that, though they will be very capable within their range. The MKIs would be the only ones capable of projecting power deep inside China or far in the Indian ocean or central asia, if necessary.

Added to all this is the fact that we are getting cutting edge expertise in manufacture and production, and whatever ToT we are getting. And experience for our public and private aerospace companies.

I don't understand the delays either. After the winner is announced, it will take another 6 months to sign the contract.

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## ptltejas

Perhaps no.s doesnt matter. We have more powerful sukhoi and perhaps more better after super sukhoi. No.2 till neighbour not have sword why to hurry get a sword. As early we bought it will be become old earlier.


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## janon

ptltejas said:


> Perhaps no.s doesnt matter. We have more powerful sukhoi and perhaps more better after super sukhoi. No.2 till neighbour not have sword why to hurry get a sword. As early we bought it will be become old earlier.



Numbers do matter when we are outmatched close to 2:1 in fighters. We need all the technological superiority we can get, and close that gap in numbers as well. Without numbers, we can't have complete geopgraphical coverage to defend all our airspace.


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## perplexed

janon said:


> Numbers do matter when we are outmatched close to 2:1 in fighters. We need all the technological superiority we can get, and close that gap in numbers as well. Without numbers, we can't have complete geopgraphical coverage to defend all our airspace.



we only have to defend our borders. 

Chinese would never leave their borders in east ( japan ) and north ( Russia ) open. So, our MKI/LCA/Jaguars will be more than a match to them.


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## janon

perplexed said:


> we only have to defend our borders.
> 
> Chinese would never leave their borders in east ( japan ) and north ( Russia ) open. So, our MKI/LCA/Jaguars will be more than a match to them.



And we couldn't leave our western border undefended. Works both ways.


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## tvsram1992

janon said:


> And we couldn't leave our western border undefended. Works both ways.


lol Chinese border is so huge but our border can be managed by cavalary .


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## SpArK

tvsram1992 said:


> lol Chinese border is so huge but our border can be managed by cavalary .



Managed by jungle camo


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## ptltejas

Eurafael = Eurofighter + Rafale. A hybrid version can be some new fighter.

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## Hello_10

ptltejas said:


> Perhaps no.s doesnt matter. We have more powerful sukhoi and perhaps more better after super sukhoi. No.2 *till neighbour not have sword why to hurry get a sword. As early we bought it will be become old earlier*.


 
If I remember, China only has around 200 J10s, their top gun, and rest of their 4th gen aircrafts are around 100 old Su27s, 100 old Su30s, and with around 100 J11s which is just a clone of old Su27s. While India currently has 146 SU30MKIs, total 270 on order, which would be at least + superior to J10s, and their Super Sukhoi, the upgraded SU30MKIs, would be among the best in 4th gen aircrafts (with its stealth features, AESA radar and brahmos missiles). And also IAF is getting upgrade of 51 Mirage2000H to 2000-5 mk2 standard which would again be said to be the best multi role aircraft in this region, better than the new 24 F16s block 52 delivered to Pakistan recently also. While Chinese top gun J10s are even not as good as F16 block 52 for multi role operations? At the same times IAF is getting 68 Mi29s being upgraded to SMT standard, and 45 Mig29k on order and even these upgraded Mig29s would be said to be fit in comparison with J10s? At the same time IAF would get 25 to 30 MKIs very year till 2015 to get all 270 and they are likely to order at least 50 more upgraded SU30MKIs to keep its production line until 2017-18, until production line of PAK FA/ FGFA would start. Then why to hurry for MMRCA until they bring any of these suppliers to the position for a best deal. While multi role LCAs of mk2 standard would also come in production from 2015 which would be enough for all the multi role operations for India while working with Mirage2000-5 mk2. While even MMRCA is proposed to come in production from 2015 onwards? Then why would IAF hurry for MRCA contract? Why dont they wait for 2-3 years more and bargain for a best deal?

And I would describe a best MMRCA deal by, either both of these suppliers would reduce total unit cost to the level of $100mil to $110 mil, (similar to $4.3bn for 42 upgraded SU30MKIs), or, EFT would offer full tech transfer with full production line to India, (IAF wont accept to have just 70% of tech transfer of EFT like the recent news), or, IAF would agree Rafales manufacture to accept IAF as their partner which would give them a type of independence on its future upgrades. Anyhow Rafale doesnt have any other customer and if they lose MMRCA, Rafale program would die.

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## ptltejas

Thanks Bro.

However as our squardon reducing and as our old fleet of mig 21, 27 Jaguars required to retired. Hell with plane but why to loss costly pilot in accidents.

AMCA is also dream at distance. Whatsoever but change mig 21 immediately. Lca must take speed to replace them.reduce cost in mmrca is great thinking thanx bro.


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## StrikeForce

Hello_10 said:


> If I remember, China only has around 200 J10s, their top gun, and rest of their 4th gen aircrafts are around 100 old Su27s, 100 old Su30s, and with around 100 J11s which is just a clone of old Su27s. While India currently has 146 SU30MKIs, total 270 on order, which would be at least &#8216;+&#8217; superior to J10s, and their &#8216;Super Sukhoi&#8217;, the upgraded SU30MKIs, would be among the best in 4th gen aircrafts (with its stealth features, AESA radar and brahmos missiles). And also IAF is getting upgrade of 51 Mirage2000H to 2000-5 mk2 standard which would again be said to be the best multi role aircraft in this region, better than the new 24 F16s block 52 delivered to Pakistan recently also. While Chinese top gun J10s are even not as good as F16 block 52 for multi role operations? At the same times IAF is getting 68 Mi29s being upgraded to SMT standard, and 45 Mig29k on order and even these upgraded Mig29s would be said to be fit in comparison with J10s? At the same time IAF would get 25 to 30 MKIs very year till 2015 to get all 270 and they are likely to order at least 50 more upgraded SU30MKIs to keep its production line until 2017-18, until production line of PAK FA/ FGFA would start. Then why to hurry for MMRCA until they bring any of these suppliers to the position for &#8216;a best deal&#8217;. While multi role LCAs of mk2 standard would also come in production from 2015 which would be enough for all the multi role operations for India while working with Mirage2000-5 mk2. While even MMRCA is proposed to come in production from 2015 onwards? Then why would IAF hurry for MRCA contract? Why don&#8217;t they wait for 2-3 years more and bargain for a best deal?
> 
> And I would describe a best MMRCA deal by, either both of these suppliers would reduce total unit cost to the level of $100mil to $110 mil, (similar to $4.3bn for 42 upgraded SU30MKIs), or, EFT would offer &#8216;full tech transfer&#8217; with full production line to India, (IAF won&#8217;t accept to have just 70% of tech transfer of EFT like the recent news), or, IAF would agree Rafale&#8217;s manufacture to accept IAF as their partner which would give them a type of independence on its future upgrades. Anyhow Rafale doesn&#8217;t have any other customer and if they lose MMRCA, Rafale program would die.



Logically you are right, However technically LCA,FGFA or PAK-FA,AMCA are not in immediate production line and any delays would hit our minimal defence requirement of 42 Squadrons in jeopardy as against current 29 Squadrons. 

And our aging Bison needs immediate retirement as well by atleast 2017. Then there will be large vacuum in IAF fighters numbers. And this is why our MMRCA deal is mandatory. Though there is cost involved, C'mon which defence deal works out cheaper.

India's upgrades had a real long delays so far and should not be anymore. National security is atmost importance and the money spent to defend it worth every penny than living in insecurity

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## Hello_10

StrikeForce said:


> Logically you are right, However technically LCA,FGFA or PAK-FA,AMCA are not in immediate production line and any delays would hit our minimal defence requirement of 42 Squadrons in jeopardy as against current 29 Squadrons.
> 
> And our aging Bison needs immediate retirement as well by atleast 2017. Then there will be large vacuum in IAF fighters numbers. And this is why our MMRCA deal is mandatory. Though there is cost involved, C'mon which defence deal works out cheaper.
> 
> India's upgrades had a real long delays so far and should not be anymore. National security is atmost importance and the money spent to defend it worth every penny than living in insecurity


 
Sir, if you try to understand what I said then, I mean to say that if you get full tech transfer for EFT, or, with full tech transfer if you can get partnership with Rafale also, and if you may keep per piece price to even around $120mil also, then you would sign this deal by tonight. And even if you may agree any of these suppliers close to what I proposed then also dont miss this chance.

IAF need aircrafts and they are getting 25 to 30 SU30MKIs every year and also 5 to 6 Mig29k per year (an estimate only with proposal of delivery of total 270 MKIs by 2015 and45 Mig29k by 2014). And even China doesnt have too many 4th gen aircrafts, hardly around 500 in total with only 200 J10s are credible as rest of Su27s, J11s and SU30s need upgrades. On other side Pakistan has only around 60 F16s with only 24 of block52, with 40 Jf17s only. and as your SU30MKIs, Mirage2000-5 mk2 and upgraded Mig29s are superior to any of the Chinese aircraft then, you would have something in agreed with post 6921, I replied? And I want you to sign the best deal, as paying around $18bn to $20bn for just 126 aircrafts would mean it. You do have 2-3 years to bargain with your best for either EFT or Rafale, I think.


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## Hello_10

ptltejas said:


> Thanks Bro.
> 
> However as our squardon reducing and as our old fleet of mig 21, 27 Jaguars required to retired. Hell with plane but *why to loss costly pilot in accidents.*
> 
> AMCA is also dream at distance. Whatsoever but change mig 21 immediately. Lca must take speed to replace them.reduce cost in mmrca is great thinking thanx bro.



India is using SU30MKIs since 2002, from 30 in beginning to 146 till the end of 2011. And during this time, they lost 3 aircrafts. This way if we assume an average of 70 aircrafts in service in between 2002 to 2011 then we find IAF is losing around 1 in every 200 SU30MKI aircrafts every year. While Pakistan just lost one JF17 and they are using 40 JF17s since last 1.5 years which means it has crass rate of around 1 in 100 aircrafts per year. (I would encourage you to come with other comparison also.)

So, if you are going to operate 146 to 270 SU30MKIs in between 2012 to 2020 then you would expect at least 20 crashes till 2020, leaving around 250 only till 2020. So, IAF would go for at least 50 MKIs more to have the number around 300 by 2020, 270 by 2030, 240 by 2040, and at least 200 MKIs by 2050.

I heard even Super Hornet crashed last year. So, be like a man and ready for few losses on time to time. Dont you lose 20 to 40 military personnel on Siachen Glacier every year, just to hold that strategic place, we do face losses on time to time.


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## janon

^^
If you are adding the indian navy's mig 29k into the equation, you should know that the People's liberation army navy airforce (I just love typing that out - it is the official name of their naval aviation wing) has around 250+ combat aircraft in its inventory.

The LCA mk2 is not going to begin production in 2015 as you claim in post #6928. We would be lucky to see its first flight by then, or to have mk1 being mass produced by then.

We are NOT getting 25-30 sukhois a year, the number so far has been close to 9 overall, and under present capacities, is 14 per year. It has been reported that the present order will only be fulfilled by 2018 from HAL's side.

We are definitely not getting 5-6 mig 29Ks a year, the number is a lot more sobering, and in any case it doesnt matter, since we are only discussing the IAF.

Before your post, I had showed that with all those things you quoted, adding up all those numbers, we would still be short of China's air combat capable capable fighters by about 500. True, all of those 500 are earlier generation fighters, but we are still talking about a HUGE numerical superiority. 189 cutting edge MRCAs would definitely help bring that gap down, and make sure that the IAF can stand its ground (or is it air?) against the PLAAf, and defend Indian airspace or even have reasonable offensive capabilities. A two front war is still questionable.

20 billion is for 189 MRCAs, not 126. And including weapons, and learning all the technology, and manufacturing them here, and jump starting our nascent aerospace sector, and with 50 percent of the money being spent in India. I feel it is a good investment.

About the crashes, I'm pretty sure you know he wasn't talking about the sukhois, but about the mig 21s.

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## Hello_10

sancho said:


> At least that's the plan and taking the maximum range as the only important spec of a missile is a mistake anyway, since nobody will fire a BVR missile at maximum range because of the no escape zone. Another point why Astra might replace R77s are the issues with the service life and quality of certain parts. Might also be a reason why IAF went with integrating Derby for LCA instead of R77.
> 
> 
> Besides all the baseless rumors and unnamed sources in the reports of last week, we now interestingly have Serge Dassault and the IAF Chief stating that something happens in the next 2 weeks. I just hope the earlier meant the MMRCA!


 
Sancho, I find you supporting Rafale so I may give you few points which you sometime don&#8217;t mention. I told you one day that *&#8220;if you gain something on one point then you lose something on other point at the same time.&#8221; So, you will always lose something if you switch from one option to another one and the fittest option is what you are in need for MMRCA.* I find you discussing small small technical terms, for what we are not qualified, and also technologies keep changing on time to time. But few bottom line points to support Rafale are as below:

1: France was the only Western country who didn&#8217;t support sanctions on India during 1998 nuclear tests. So, France with Russia were only qualified as a Reliable Suppliers for MMRCA deal. Don&#8217;t forget, if India will ever do nuclear test in future, the European powers are different but even country like Australia will straight put bans on India. And importance of a reliable supplier is always more than a reliable arm.

2. full tech transfer is possible for Mig29VOT/ Mig35 and Rafale only as both are made by single manufacture only, (the non US aircrafts), and with experience of Mirage2000 and Russian aircrafts, its believed that these two countries, Russia and France, would be happy to transfer full techs of both the aircrafts. None of the rest of Western suppliers would transfer the full techs.

3. one day I talked to a supporter of upgrade of Mirage2000H, why to pay $3.9bn to upgrade old 51 Mirage2000 while even new Super Hornet were delivered to Australia for $79.5mil with loaded with missiles last year? Then he answered, if Turkey need to buy MRCA then they would go for F16s block 60 with AESA radar for around $80mil only, and if Australia need it then they would go for Super Hornet with AESA radar, but if India wants the same, then paying around $77mil for even upgrade of old Mirage2000, without AESA radar, is also &#8220;good&#8221;. As, you just need a good pilot and either of Mirage2000, F16s and Super Hornet can do the similar works and India has very good experience on Mirage2000. Hence, IAF first tried for Mirage2000-5 mk2 for MMRCA till 2007, until its production line was running, and if the same manufacture is offering a &#8216;better&#8217; one for multi role operation then you would go for Rafale only. He said, MMRCA has only two option, first Mig29VOT/ Mig35 which may do every work competently and economically, or, if you want to pay the twice price for a better one then go for Rafale only which has infrastructure of Mirage2000, means easy to induct and known platform for IAF.

4. Rafale is not only claimed to be a better multi role aircraft than Mirage2000-5 mk2, (as claimed by its manufactures when they closed production line of Mirage2000), but IAF is so much impressed with Mirage2000 that they were considering only Mirage2000-5 mk2 for MRCA deal till 2007, when its production line was closed. and also Rafale always impressed SU30MKIs pilots during air shows for air superiority roles. So Rafale is a quite balance aircraft for both a2a and a2g operations, and as you are looking for a Multi Role Combat aircraft, not a primarily air superiority aircraft like SU30MKIs, Rafale is better suited than EFT.

Rest, upgrades will continue with aircrafts and more you delay, better the aircraft will be on offer, its true as per the post 6921 also. so, just few bottom line points are enough to select Rafale for MMRCA, if not Mig35. and also, it would be the best option for IAC-2 which will come in operation by 2020/22, Rafale the one aircraft for both IAF and IN.

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## Hello_10

janon said:


> ^^
> If you are adding the indian navy's mig 29k into the equation, you should know that the People's liberation army navy airforce (I just love typing that out - it is the official name of their naval aviation wing) has around 250+ combat aircraft in its inventory.
> 
> The LCA mk2 is not going to begin production in 2015 as you claim in post #6928. We would be lucky to see its first flight by then, or to have mk1 being mass produced by then.
> 
> We are NOT getting 25-30 sukhois a year, the number so far has been close to 9 overall, and under present capacities, is 14 per year. It has been reported that the present order will only be fulfilled by 2018 from HAL's side.
> 
> We are definitely not getting 5-6 mig 29Ks a year, the number is a lot more sobering, and in any case it doesnt matter, since we are only discussing the IAF.
> 
> Before your post, I had showed that with all those things you quoted, adding up all those numbers, we would still be short of China's air combat capable capable fighters by about 500. True, all of those 500 are earlier generation fighters, but we are still talking about a HUGE numerical superiority. 189 cutting edge MRCAs would definitely help bring that gap down, and make sure that the IAF can stand its ground (or is it air?) against the PLAAf, and defend Indian airspace or even have reasonable offensive capabilities. A two front war is still questionable.
> 
> *20 billion is for 189 MRCAs, not 126.* And including weapons, and learning all the technology, and manufacturing them here, and jump starting our nascent aerospace sector, and with 50 percent of the money being spent in India. I feel it is a good investment.
> 
> About the *crashes, I'm pretty sure you know he wasn't talking about the sukhois, but about the mig 21s*.



we two are in between 'cliams'. Im on the best possible delivery side of SU30MKIs and Mig29ks and you are talking about the worst case senario........

I talked about SU30MKI as it will be the aircraft in use for you in future, time of Mig21s is gone, they did their duties good even in 1971, but over 40 years have passed since then&#8230;&#8230;..

And if you may get 189 for $20bn then don&#8217;t delay and sign this deal as soon as you can. (but check again, right now you are dealing for 126 aircrafts only and news suggest cost varying for them from $15bn to $20bn for 126 aircrafts only.) And also here, Rafale is in production while EFT need to be upgraded till 2015 before it may come in production, like they still haven&#8217;t developed AESA radar. First 18 Rafale can be delivered from France by 2013 also. so I would bet for Rafale. thanks


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## janon

Hello_10 said:


> we two are in between 'cliams'. Im on the best possible delivery side of SU30MKIs and Mig29ks and *you are talking about the worst case senario*........
> 
> I talked about SU30MKI as it will be the aircraft in use for you in future, time of Mig21s is gone, they did their duties good even in 1971, but over 40 years have passed since then&#8230;&#8230;..
> 
> And if you may get 189 for $20bn then don&#8217;t delay and sign this deal as soon as you can. (but check again, right now you are dealing for 126 aircrafts only and news suggest cost varying for them from $15bn to $20bn for 126 aircrafts only.) And also here, Rafale is in production while EFT need to be upgraded till 2015 before it may come in production, like they still haven&#8217;t developed AESA radar. First 18 Rafale can be delivered from France by 2013 also. so I would bet for Rafale. thanks



No, I'm talking about the real scenario that exists, not the best or worst possible one. There are no plans to increase that capacity. And don't add the mig 29Ks unless you want to count about 250 fighters of the PLANAf.


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## sancho

Hello_10 said:


> Sancho, I find you supporting Rafale so I may give you few points which you sometime don&#8217;t mention...



I agree with you on these points, but not on PLAAFs fleet because you highly underestimate them!

J10A - a good design in the single engine medium weight class, with propper 4th gen capabilities and that is the actual low end of PLAAF for the next decades!
J10B - which you missed is coming in soon and as I often said, probably the biggest threat for IAF, because it will have 4.5 gen capabilities, is cost-effective and therefore will be deployed in numbers. Especially with Chinas capability to produce fast and in high numbers, this will be a big problem, but it's by far not the only one!
Su 27SK - which you downplaid by saying it's old, but exactly you should know how capable these beast are in the air superiority role and PLAAF didn't left them the way they were at the begining. They were modernsed through the years and not to forget that most of their Flankers uses the same Russian weapons as IAF does.
J11 - a clone, but a way more capable one, multi role capable, estimated with a lower RCS and modern 4th gen features too.
Su 30 - not old at all, because they were procured around the same time IAF got the first Flankers too and they also were upgraded during the years

Only because the MKI has some technological advantages, doesn't mean these Flanker versions and the J10s are way less capable. They all are very good fighters and IAF has only a few squads of MKIs to defend the north eastern borders, because the M2K and Mig 29SMT are aimed on PAF.
Combined with the delays in the LCA development, it should be more than obvious why a foreign fighter procurement was needed to beef up the eastern defence and why just sitting there and waiting for FGFA to arrive (which is just a paperplane so far) at the end of the decade is simply not realistic. The Mirage 2000-5s would have been the perfect stopgap fighter, but MoD had different plans and now we get more costly but also more capable fighters and IAF will defenitely won't wait more years for them!

PLAAF has a very capable fleet and especially the lower end might be more capable than ours, I would have loved if we had gone with the LAVI design or a single engine medium class fighter instead of LCA, because it's a more capable platform. With the experience of AL 31 licence production and a possible FGFA coming in future, it would also hade made much sense at the engine development side.
However, the Chinese went the right way and all what may limit J10 is, that they have to develop anything on their own + some Russian help, compared to the options we have and that's why even with huge defence budgets, they face similar problems as we do (indigenous engine developments for example). 
That's another reason why I prefer the ready developed and proven Rafale that can be fast and easy inducted into IAF, compared to an EF that takes way more years till it will be a good fighter and Indias security can't afford to have LCA, FGFA and EF under development at the same time!

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## rissriva

Hello_10 said:


> India is using SU30MKIs since 2002, from 30 in beginning to 146 till the end of 2011. And during this time, they lost 3 aircrafts. This way if we assume an average of 70 aircrafts in service in between 2002 to 2011 then we find IAF is losing around 1 in every 200 SU30MKI aircrafts every year. While Pakistan just lost one JF17 and they are using 40 JF17s since last 1.5 years which means it has crass rate of around 1 in 100 aircrafts per year. (I would encourage you to come with other comparison also.)
> 
> So, if you are going to operate 146 to 270 SU30MKIs in between 2012 to 2020 then you would expect at least 20 crashes till 2020, leaving around 250 only till 2020. So, IAF would go for at least 50 MKIs more to have the number around 300 by 2020, 270 by 2030, 240 by 2040, and at least 200 MKIs by 2050.
> 
> I heard even Super Hornet crashed last year. So, be like a man and ready for few losses on time to time. Don&#8217;t you lose 20 to 40 military personnel on Siachen Glacier every year, just to hold that strategic place, we do face losses on time to time.



Thanks for all this Probable scientific review ....


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## praveen007

*24 JANUARY D- DAY for MMRCA ?
.
.
If sources are to be believed MMRCA winner will be announced just few days before 26 January Republic Day , while some media Sources are putting that day has 24 January 2012 ,* has the day when worlds single largest order will be declared . Recently they were some rumors which idrw.org along with some reputed news agencies reported that Eurofigther might have won the MMRCA competition , while it seems some one has stepped in and the MMRCA Rumors and the mouth spreading them have told to shut up . Whole Rumors surrounding Eurofigther has died down and no source wants to talk about it now it seems . is it silent before a TYPHOON ?? well we are not sure and with just few days left for the supposed D Day , we will hold for a official confirmation now .
.
.
*Source:- 24 JANUARY D DAY for MMRCA ? | idrw.org*

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## The enlightened

'British Typhoons Whacked India's Sukhois in Joint Exercises'
Now this one seems interesting.
It's a lit'l old though.


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## satishkumarcsc

The enlightened said:


> 'British Typhoons Whacked India's Sukhois in Joint Exercises'
> Now this one seems interesting.
> It's a lit'l old though.



Well that wasn't surprising in BVR though. EFT is far better in complete configuration when compared to the training mode in Su 30 that we were using.


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## angeldemon_007

> 'British Typhoons Whacked India's Sukhois in Joint Exercises'
> Now this one seems interesting.
> It's a lit'l old though.


Well Rafale aLSO beat Su30 mki in the dogfight but its because Su30 mki is bulkier air supremacy aircraft of the category of F15. In the real battle Su30 mki won't let these aircraft enter in the dogfight in the first place. If you wanna compare F15 with Su30 mki then i think in the dogfight Su30 mki will win. MKI is an engineering marvel, its very maneuverable...

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## ptltejas

Hello_10 said:


> India is using SU30MKIs since 2002, from 30 in beginning to 146 till the end of 2011. And during this time, they lost 3 aircrafts. This way if we assume an average of 70 aircrafts in service in between 2002 to 2011 then we find IAF is losing around 1 in every 200 SU30MKI aircrafts every year. While Pakistan just lost one JF17 and they are using 40 JF17s since last 1.5 years which means it has crass rate of around 1 in 100 aircrafts per year. (I would encourage you to come with other comparison also.)
> 
> 
> So, if you are going to operate 146 to 270 SU30MKIs in between 2012 to 2020 then you would expect at least 20 crashes till 2020, leaving around 250 only till 2020. So, IAF would go for at least 50 MKIs more to have the number around 300 by 2020, 270 by 2030, 240 by 2040, and at least 200 MKIs by 2050.u
> 
> I heard even Super Hornet crashed last year. So, be like a man and ready for few losses on time to time. Dont you lose 20 to 40 military personnel on Siachen Glacier every year, just to hold that strategic place, we do face losses on time to time.


 

Admitted Sir. My point was against Mig 21 and not Sukhois. Well pilot loss its life as martyr is not problem. But sucide in old junk is useless. War must be with courage and with right weapons why we lost pilots in old mig that s grievance.


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## tvsram1992

Hello_10 said:


> I heard even Super Hornet crashed last year. So, be like a man and ready for few losses on time to time. Dont you lose 20 to 40 military personnel on Siachen Glacier every year, just to hold that strategic place, we do face losses on time to time.


He mean Mig21 i think , btw we cant let Siachen go under the control of Pakistan , we will protect it by sacrificing few lives as if we dont we will lose the land . Coming to the crashes we have an option ie replacing with Mig35 or Su35 or Gripen or better upgradation like better ejection systems , upgrading avionics and engine or reducing flight time etc . We cant continue to lose pilots at this rate . Hope you agree with this point .

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## StrikeForce

*Rafale - Combat Power(Old one but good one)*


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## Storm Force

Wouldnt read too much into excecises.

In the PDF military section MEMBERS CLAIMING PAF F16S beat TYPHOONS in excercises.

THEN (THIS IS THE BEST BIT) 

Thunder beat F16 OF PAF. 

so logically thunder is better than both F16 & TYPHOON

its all made up

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## prabhakar

Storm Force said:


> Wouldnt read too much into excecises.
> 
> In the PDF military section MEMBERS CLAIMING PAF F16S beat TYPHOONS in excercises.
> 
> THEN (THIS IS THE BEST BIT)
> 
> * Thunder beat F16 OF PAF.*
> 
> so logically thunder is better than both F16 & TYPHOON
> 
> its all made up



that was possible... it seems that Americans provided them a water downed version of F-16


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## Black Widow

angeldemon_007 said:


> Well Rafale aLSO beat Su30 mki in the dogfight but its because Su30 mki is bulkier air supremacy aircraft of the category of F15. In the real battle Su30 mki won't let these aircraft enter in the dogfight in the first place. If you wanna compare F15 with Su30 mki then i think in the dogfight Su30 mki will win. MKI is an engineering marvel, its very maneuverable...




Agree with you. F15 and Su27 is not only Big, Its huge. So in dogfight there moves are limited. Infact they are not made for dogfight. With huge radar at nose, they can not allow any fighter to come near them. 

I think F16 is one of the best Dogfighter..


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## rockstarIN

Black Widow said:


> Agree with you. F15 and Su27 is not only Big, Its huge. So in dogfight there moves are limited. Infact they are not made for dogfight. With huge radar at nose, they can not allow any fighter to come near them.
> 
> I think F16 is one of the best Dogfighter..



No disrespect to F-16, but I read Singapore Air Force F-16 pilot's comments about MKI's superb dog fighting capability with the help of TVC, it is very hard to tail on that.

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## tvsram1992

Black Widow said:


> Agree with you. F15 and Su27 is not only Big, Its huge. So in dogfight there moves are limited. Infact they are not made for dogfight. With huge radar at nose, they can not allow any fighter to come near them.
> 
> I think F16 is one of the best Dogfighter..


what Mki is one of the best dog fighter


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## The enlightened

MKI has some of the highest turn rates- both inst. and sust. but from the many of the videos and airshows I have seen, it seems a bit sluggish, especially when compared against the Fulcrum series.


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## The enlightened

Here, 
this video might shed some more light.


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## sancho

> *Dassault Aviation: India's decision next week?*
> 
> According to analysts at Credit Suisse, India could finally announce next week what the fighter she will order CXE that would mark the end of a procedure initiated in 2008. The two finalists are the EADS Eurofighter Typhoon and the Rafale from Dassault Aviation. The first is favorite, according to the press. But for specialists, "anything can happen."...
> 
> ...Credit Suisse also said "cautiously optimistic" about the chances of the aircraft of EADS.
> 
> But beware: "anything can happen," added analysts. *They believe that the purchase price of the Rafale* (but not necessarily the cost of maintaining operational) *should be lower. "We believe (Rafale) also offers more than proximity to the current Indian fleet, which would facilitate the integration,*" said the research note.



Google Übersetzer


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## ptltejas

No need to loss pilots the technology is available for the same. They do not fight hand to hand. Why to not use laser to save sukhois like f 35. No news in miletry about laser developments. AMCA must use photon based processor and Graphene. If gona to start work in 2025. Why not to add six gen featre directly.


One question

whether MMRCA would be helpful any way to our LCA TEJA oh sorry TEJAS.


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## ptltejas

Indian Defense Projects - a knol by Vijainder K Thakur


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## sancho

ptltejas said:


> One question
> 
> whether MMRCA would be helpful any way to our LCA TEJA oh sorry TEJAS.



Of course, since EADS is already a consultant on some design issues, just like Snecma and Rafales M88 could be the base for the Kaveri - Snecma co-development. Also Selex as well as Thales are possible partners for a joint AESA development, which again would be based on the versions developed for EF or Rafale. So technically there are ways to combine both and get advantages for LCA MK2, the slow decision progress on deciding about Kaveri engines future or the radar co-development could even be hints, that these are already related.


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## Hello_10

janon said:


> ^^
> If you are adding the indian navy's mig 29k into the equation, you should know that the People's liberation army navy airforce (I just love typing that out - it is the official name of their naval aviation wing) has around 250+ combat aircraft in its inventory.
> 
> The LCA mk2 is not going to begin production in 2015 as you claim in post #6928. We would be lucky to see its first flight by then, or to have mk1 being mass produced by then.
> 
> *We are NOT getting 25-30 sukhois a year, the number so far has been close to 9 overall, and under present capacities, is 14 per year. It has been reported that the present order will only be fulfilled by 2018 from HAL's side.
> 
> We are definitely not getting 5-6 mig 29Ks a year, the number is a lot more sobering, and in any case it doesnt matter, since we are only discussing the IAF.*
> 
> Before your post, I had showed that with all those things you quoted, adding up all those numbers, we would still be short of China's air combat capable capable fighters by about 500. True, all of those 500 are earlier generation fighters, but we are still talking about a HUGE numerical superiority. 189 cutting edge MRCAs would definitely help bring that gap down, and make sure that the IAF can stand its ground (or is it air?) against the PLAAf, and defend Indian airspace or even have reasonable offensive capabilities. A two front war is still questionable.
> 
> *20 billion is for 189 MRCAs, not 126.* And including weapons, and learning all the technology, and manufacturing them here, and jump starting our nascent aerospace sector, and with 50 percent of the money being spent in India. I feel it is a good investment.
> 
> About the crashes, I'm pretty sure you know he wasn't talking about the sukhois, but about the mig 21s.





> Russia and India according to finalize the delivery schedule, Russia will be delivered to India in 2012, more 40 m-17V-5 type of military transport helicopters, *21 Su-30MKI *(*signed in 2000*, according to contract to license the assembly), *12 Su-30MKI (according to the 2007 supply contracts signed) and nine carrier-based fighter aircraft MiG -29K/KUB*.  In addition, this year, Russia and India will continue serving on the Indian MiG-29 fighter jets, Figure -142 patrol aircraft, helicopters Mi-17 upgrade and maintenance of 877EM submarine contract. At the same time, Russia will provide card-31 shipborne helicopters, AL-55-and TRDD-50MT engine, &#8220;club-S&#8221; anti-ship missile systems, Mi-17 helicopter training simulator, the assembly authorized the Indian T-90S a series of main battle tanks and other contracts.


Russian media: United States next year will replace Russia as India&#8217;s largest source of weapons « Military of China, force comment.




> Today, at about Rs 53 to the dollar, that $15 billion bid translates into Rs 79,500 crore. The two per cent cost of forex hedging is Rs 1,590 crore, taking the bill to Rs 81,090 crore, Rs 15,525 crore more than last October. The MoD is set to pay almost twice the Rs 42,000 crore that was budgeted for the MMRCA.
> http://www.business-standard.com/india/news/rupee-fall-jacksindias-arms-purchase-bill-/459638/
> 
> The multi-billion contract to buy 126 fighter jets from one of two European bidders could be worth more than $20bn almost double the original estimate,
> http://www.defencenews.in/defence-news-internal.asp?get=new&id=798


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## angeldemon_007

^^^
I doubt this will happen because lets just see...

*Brahmos Aerospace order book has reached upto 10 billion $. Right now we are waiting for Air to ground and submarine launch version and atleast one more regiment of Brahmos blk 3. This will mean the order book is going to grow till the end of this decade because by 2016 Brahmos hypersonic version will enter into production. In short Brahmos alone will generate billions and billions of dollars for Russia. *

Su 30 mki and Mig29 naval version sales

IAF mig29 upgradation

Super 30 upgradation, again more than a billion $

Ka 31 purchase.

Three follow on order for Talwar class frigate

Vikramaditya Aircraft Carrier

Nuclear submarine (INS Chakra)

Around 130 Mi17V5.

more t90 mbt orders are likely to be placed.

Russian consultancy for IAC 1 and ATV project. Russia also proposed a 7000 ton design for Indian SSN project but it looks like French Baracuda design is favorite of MOD and MOF.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Amur has a very good chance of winning in P75I (atleast around 3 billion $ and this could go till 11 billion $)

Il78 is competing in IAF tanker competition (Its finanace ministry's favourite)

Mi26 in 12 heavy lift choppers is again MOF.

Ka-226 in 197 LUH competition is still in the race.

Russia is also participating in VSHORAD competition

Rosoboronexport has also team up with OFB for FICV, if they win which is good chance, then again russia will benefit in a project that will again went to 10 billion $ sales.

By 2016 MRTA will enter in the production, again generating money for both Russia and India.

And by the end of decade the mother of all deals...FGFA (which will eventually lead to the purchase of worth close to 30 billion $)


So in short it doesn't look like US will take over Russia and one of the biggest reason is lack of trust among the two nations. Israel is another big seller but most of the israeli project and consultancy are behind the back doors, so we won't really find out how many billions of defence trade going on between these two nations.

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## Abingdonboy

janon said:


> ^^
> If you are adding the indian navy's mig 29k into the equation, you should know that the People's liberation army navy airforce (I just love typing that out - it is the official name of their naval aviation wing) has around 250+ combat aircraft in its inventory.
> 
> The LCA mk2 is not going to begin production in 2015 as you claim in post #6928. We would be lucky to see its first flight by then, or to have mk1 being mass produced by then.
> 
> We are NOT getting 25-30 sukhois a year, the number so far has been close to 9 overall, and under present capacities, is 14 per year. It has been reported that the present order will only be fulfilled by 2018 from HAL's side.
> 
> We are definitely not getting 5-6 mig 29Ks a year, the number is a lot more sobering, and in any case it doesnt matter, since we are only discussing the IAF.
> 
> Before your post, I had showed that with all those things you quoted, adding up all those numbers, we would still be short of China's air combat capable capable fighters by about 500. True, all of those 500 are earlier generation fighters, but we are still talking about a HUGE numerical superiority. 189 cutting edge MRCAs would definitely help bring that gap down, and make sure that the IAF can stand its ground (or is it air?) against the PLAAf, and defend Indian airspace or even have reasonable offensive capabilities. A two front war is still questionable.
> 
> 20 billion is for 189 MRCAs, not 126. And including weapons, and learning all the technology, and manufacturing them here, and jump starting our nascent aerospace sector, and with 50 percent of the money being spent in India. I feel it is a good investment.
> 
> About the crashes, I'm pretty sure you know he wasn't talking about the sukhois, but about the mig 21s.



Actually HAL is delivering now about 18-22 MKIs a year, there was some news a while back the IAF had asked HAL to deliver units peridocaiclly throughout the year instead of almost an entire SQD at the end of the calendar which was a major headache at the time. Also the MiG-29K production is ~7-8/annum- deal was signed in 2008 for 16 and all are to delivered by Q3 2011/Q1 2012. And the follow on order are expected to all be inducted by Q3 2013/Q1 2014.


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## janon

Abingdonboy said:


> Actually HAL is delivering now about 18-22 MKIs a year, there was some news a while back the IAF had asked HAL to deliver units peridocaiclly throughout the year instead of almost an entire SQD at the end of the calendar which was a major headache at the time. Also the MiG-29K production is ~7-8/annum- deal was signed in 2008 for 16 and all are to delivered by Q3 2011/Q1 2012. And the follow on order are expected to all be inducted by Q3 2013/Q1 2014.



As per this news report on 27th december 2011, the present capacity is 12 per year, and IAF has asked it to be ramped up to 16 a year. This is the "envisaged" capacity.

HAL to Build 16 Sukhois Annually To Meet IAF Induction Plan - Defence Now

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## Hello_10

janon said:


> As per this news report on 27th december 2011, the present capacity is 12 per year, and IAF has asked it to be ramped up to 16 a year. This is the "envisaged" capacity.
> 
> HAL to Build 16 Sukhois Annually To Meet IAF Induction Plan - Defence Now



Janon I don&#8217;t know how old you but Im reading news on regular basis since early 90s, and I have interests in defence news since early 2000s. and I tell you that I found many times journalists give news on the basis of what someone tells them, without any deep research. While things also keep changing, like how we make different &#8216;claims&#8217; but things don&#8217;t work in that way actually.

So, in place of discussing different claims, lets stuck with the things, (numbers), that is actually happening. I mean, I have a credible source in my post 6957 that this year IAF will get 21+12=33 SU30MKI and 9 Mig29k, a total of &#8216;42&#8217; 4.5 gen aircrafts and you also have a news that IAF won&#8217;t get these aircrafts more than 15-16 this year. But I now have a news given below which states what exactly happened during last 2 years so we would predict on the basis on that. I mean, the rate of supply of these aircrafts would at least be said to be the same as that of last 2 years, isn&#8217;t it?



> *As of June 2009*
> 
> *HAL had assembled 42 MKIs from the total order of 140 to be assembled by the end of 2012.*
> As of December 2009, the IAF was operating five Su-30MKI squadrons, with two squadrons flying HAL assembled aircraft.
> 
> 
> *As of June 2010*
> 
> *HAL had delivered 74 of of the 140 aircraft on order.* It delivered 23 Su-30MKI in 2009 and is expected to deliver 28 in 2010. Three aircraft from the follow-up order for 40 placed on Russia had been delivered by December 7, 2009. Delivery of the remaining is expected to be completed by 2011-12.
> 
> A total of two aircraft were lost in crashes on 30 April 2009 and 30 November 2009.
> 
> 
> *As of March 2011*
> 
> *Out of the total 180 aircraft, 99 aircraft have been delivered till 2010-11.*
> 
> Su-30MKI Acquisition and Upgrade - Indian Defense Projects Sentinel



Note:


> The IAF decided to procure from Russia 230 Sukhoi aircraft, 50 of them in fly-way condition and the rest to be produced under licence by the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, which has by 2010-11 delivered 99 of the 180 aircraft. Last month, India decided to acquire 42 additional aircraft.
> The Hindu : States / Other States : Air Chief flies SU-30 to restore confidence in pilots



(this means IAF currently has at least 50+99-3='146' SU30MKIs, supplied till March 2011, with supply rate of 30+ MKIs per year. with hopefully at least 6-7 Mig29k per year also with ) 

*Note: HAL assembled &#8216;42&#8217; MKIs till June 2009, delivered &#8216;74&#8217; till June 2010 by rate of 32 per year, and could delivered &#8216;99&#8217; till March 2011 by rate of 25 for 9 months means 33 per year. means they are maintaining 32-33 per year delivery rate of MKIs so we hope total number of SU30MKIs would touch 179 by March2012*

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## ptltejas

Now if HAL upgrade d version that shall delay as those model fkrst upgraded and then production will taken in hand. Think so


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## Archie

Hello_10 said:


> Janon I don&#8217;t know how old you but Im reading news on regular basis since early 90s, and I have interests in defence news since early 2000s. and I tell you that I found many times journalists give news on the basis of what someone tells them, without any deep research. While things also keep changing, like how we make different &#8216;claims&#8217; but things don&#8217;t work in that way actually.
> So, in place of discussing different claims, lets stuck with the things, (numbers), that is actually happening. I mean, I have a credible source in my post 6957 that this year IAF will get 21+12=33 SU30MKI and 9 Mig29k, a total of &#8216;42&#8217; 4.5 gen aircrafts and you also have a news that IAF won&#8217;t get these aircrafts more than 15-16 this year. But I now have a news given below which states what exactly happened during last 2 years so we would predict on the basis on that. I mean, the rate of supply of these aircrafts would at least be said to be the same as that of last 2 years, isn&#8217;t it?
> 
> 
> 
> Note:
> 
> (this means IAF currently has at least 50+99-3='146' SU30MKIs, supplied till March 2011, with supply rate of 30+ MKIs per year. with hopefully at least 6-7 Mig29k per year also with )
> 
> *Note: HAL assembled &#8216;42&#8217; MKIs till June 2009, delivered &#8216;74&#8217; till June 2010, and could delivered &#8216;99&#8217; till March 2011.*



As of September 2011 , Indian Airforce operated 159 Su30MKI , and in November , the number of Su30MKI finally exceeded the number of Mig21Bis/Bisons thanks to the retirement of No.17 Sqd flying 16 Mig21Bis , which left India with a fleet of 155 Mig21Bis/Bisons against a fleet of 163 MKI


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## Hello_10

Archie said:


> As of September 2011 , Indian Airforce operated 159 Su30MKI , and in November , the number of Su30MKI finally exceeded the number of Mig21Bis/Bisons thanks to the retirement of No.17 Sqd flying 16 Mig21Bis , which left India with a fleet of 155 Mig21Bis/Bisons against a fleet of 163 MKI



thats what the numbers says, 146 MKIs by March 2011 so hopefully 179 by March 2012


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## Hello_10

Archie said:


> As of September 2011 , Indian Airforce operated 159 Su30MKI , and in November , the number of Su30MKI finally exceeded the number of Mig21Bis/Bisons thanks to the retirement of No.17 Sqd flying 16 Mig21Bis , which left India with a fleet of 155 Mig21Bis/Bisons against a fleet of 163 MKI


 
That&#8217;s why I said that IAF would delay MMRCA by at least 1-2 years and try to become a partner of Rafale program as I find Rafale&#8217;s manufacturers in the position to accept any condition to get this 126 MMRCA which may be extended to 189 + 40 for IAC2 also, and MMRCA publicity may help Rafale to get more customers worldwide also otherwise Rafale doesn&#8217;t have any customer right now and it will die if they don&#8217;t get this MMRCA.

even Mig29Ks are fit in comparison with Pakistan&#8217;s top gun F16 block 52 which they have just 18 right now and Chinese top gun J10s are not as good as F16s block 25, and their J10B is still under testings. While IAF&#8217;s current SU30MKIs are said to be &#8216;+&#8217; superior to these top guns of Indian neighbours. 

Remember, now SU30MKIs are being upgraded to Super Sukhoi with stealth features, J10s to J10b, and Su35 to Su35bm, so if IAF delays MMRCA for 1-2 years then Rafale may also be offered with a more powerful AESA radar with all those stealth features for what J10s, SU30MKIs, SU35s are being upgraded. And if IAF is getting at least 32-33 SU30MKIs and around 9 Mig29k per year, with hopefully putting IAS Vikramaditya loaded with Mig29k in company of INS Virat also in Arabian sea by 2012 end, then there is no reason why IAF can&#8217;t wait for 1-2 years for a 'best deal' for 126 MMRCA, for a best 4++ aircraft of it&#8217;s generation with low price also 

(And one more advantage we have with Rafale is, it has a running production line and 60+ Rafale are already working in French military so even if IAF sign deal for Rafale after 1-2 years, in 2013, the first batch of 18 Rafale can be delivered by 2014 with home made delivery starting by at least 2016, (as compare to proposed 18 MMRCA by 2013 with starting it&#8217;s production in India by 2015.) as, Eurofighter is also still developing AESA radar and can't stick with it&#8217;s promises until they get 3-4 years to upgrade EFT. Then why not engage Rafale also for its best version including stealth features etc also like Su35bm/ Super Sukhoi?)


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## Hello_10

sancho said:


> Google Übersetzer



I tell you how IAF thinks, that is, even if SU30MKIs are the best aircraft of IAF, upgraded 2 Mirage2000-5 mk2 which are supposed to return from France this year, will finally get responsibility of nuclear weapon delivery, if required. (no wonder why Mirage2000N, a version of Mirage2000-5 mk2, is the aircraft which has nuclear weapon responsibility for France.) After many tests including during Kargil war, IAF finds French aircrafts very reliable for any very specialised operation. The way IAF swear for Mirage2000, they would only buy Rafale, the successor of Mirage2000. France just needs to be able to talk IAF in a right way to get this MMRCA deal

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## Sadhu

Yup but French are a rip off when it comes to maintainance, upgradation And Weapons purchase


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## Hello_10

Sadhu said:


> Yup but French are a rip off when it comes to maintainance, upgradation And Weapons purchase



I have said many times, &#8220;If you switch from one option to another one, you lose something. If Rafale will have some issues then same for EFT also and the &#8216;Fittest&#8217; option is what you are looking for MMRCA. and Yes Rafale is a much proved and tested aircraft than EFT.&#8221; IAF would go for only Rafale, if they have to chose one from Rafale and EFT. More delay would mean IAF is in negotiations for those unknown terms of MMRCA which will come in light after few years&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.


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## tvsram1992

Sadhu said:


> Yup but French are a rip off when it comes to maintainance, upgradation And Weapons purchase


But the best thing with French is throw money and do any thing u want . They give access to carry nukes and they dont bow before uncle .

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## janon

Hello_10 said:


> Janon I don&#8217;t know how old you but Im reading news on regular basis since early 90s, and I have interests in defence news since early 2000s. and I tell you that I found many times journalists give news on the basis of what someone tells them, without any deep research. While things also keep changing, like how we make different &#8216;claims&#8217; but things don&#8217;t work in that way actually.
> 
> So, in place of discussing different claims, lets stuck with the things, (numbers), that is actually happening. *I mean, I have a credible source in my post 6957 that this year IAF will get 21+12=33 SU30MKI and 9 Mig29k, a total of &#8216;42&#8217; 4.5 gen aircrafts and you also have a news that IAF won&#8217;t get these aircrafts more than 15-16 this year.* But I now have a news given below which states what exactly happened during last 2 years so we would predict on the basis on that. I mean, the rate of supply of these aircrafts would at least be said to be the same as that of last 2 years, isn&#8217;t it?
> 
> 
> 
> Note:
> 
> (this means IAF currently has at least 50+99-3='146' SU30MKIs, supplied till March 2011, with supply rate of 30+ MKIs per year. with hopefully at least 6-7 Mig29k per year also with )
> 
> *Note: HAL assembled &#8216;42&#8217; MKIs till June 2009, delivered &#8216;74&#8217; till June 2010 by rate of 32 per year, and could delivered &#8216;99&#8217; till March 2011 by rate of 25 for 9 months means 33 per year. means they are maintaining 32-33 per year delivery rate of MKIs so we hope total number of SU30MKIs would touch 179 by March2012*



You are confusing issues here. My post was about HAL's production capacity. Your source in post 6957 was talking about the number of MKIs we will get from Russia.

Now in this post you have a website claiming that HAL delivered 23 MKIs in 2009. What I suspect is that these include the fighters assembled from semi knocked down kits from Russia, and once HAL has started producing them from scratch, the rate has gone down. This is pure speculation on my part, for the reason that we have had a slew of reports about IAF asking HAL to ramp up production rates to 16. Also note that no source is given in the website you quoted for these figures - newspaper sources are quoted for all other figures, which means that the author there too relies on newspaper reports, just like us.

So I think it comes down to which sources we deem to be credible and which we don't.


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## sancho

Hello_10 said:


> Note: *HAL assembled &#8216;42&#8217; MKIs till June 2009, delivered &#8216;74&#8217; till June 2010 by rate of 32 per year*, and could delivered &#8216;99&#8217; till March 2011 by rate of 25 for 9 months means 33 per year. means they are maintaining 32-33 per year delivery rate of MKIs so we hope total number of SU30MKIs would touch 179 by March2012



And there is the mistake in your calculation, because the production rate does not include the fighters that were assembled by HAL, but produced by IRKUT!
Also the initial plan was, to produce 140 fighters till 2015 (not 2012 like you said), with the additional 42 the production line will go on till 2017 and then will take over the FGFA production. The source Janon provided is is the most realistic one and fitting to official statements of MoD too.

However, this has no relation to MMRCA so lets stick to topic again!




Hello_10 said:


> The way IAF swear for Mirage2000, they would only buy Rafale, the successor of Mirage2000. France just needs to be able to talk IAF in a right way to get this MMRCA deal



But IAF is not deciding MMRCA, MoD will and therefor certain other requirements has to be fulfilled as well. Be it the industrial side, the financial side or even certain political points that usually will be included in such deals and that's why the EF has it's chances to win MMRCA too.

Btw, delaying MMRCA to get a partnership on Rafale makes no sense, because that increased the chances that other countries buys it. With UAE and Brazil Dassault has 2 very good options for a sale in pretty decent numbers and hardly any real competior, the only issue in both competitions is the price negotiation.
So if we wanted to be a partner of Rafale, we had to speed up things instead of delaying them and try to be the launch customer!


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## StrikeForce

angeldemon_007 said:


> ^^^
> So in short it doesn't look like US will take over Russia and one of the biggest reason is lack of trust among the two nations. Israel is another big seller but most of the israeli project and consultancy are behind the back doors, so we won't really find out how many billions of defence trade going on between these two nations.



India is no doubt a largest importer of Israeli defence products. However their defence products are more of supplementary like AWACS , SPYDER Dome, Barak Missiles, UAV's which usually cost less than the major deals like Fighter Jets, Aircraft Carriers, Submarines which cost quite a fortune of Indian defence budget.

India slowly but steadily started US defence deals and It will be interesting to see how the defence deals will go with US in the coming decade. However on surpassing our defence deals with Russia, I really doubt that.


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## ptltejas

Rus is ultimate tech country. He is friend without condition like US. Rus never stop supplying extra tech to India we need better collobration of both countries for reducing cost and include advance tech.

What shall be tomorrows war and what to do is required to decide today. Missiles will take imporatant role. With Awacs and fighters in the sky. There shall not be single direction attack but possibly multiple direction attack.


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## ptltejas

I think no need many small UAV with that U-2 like which cover big area.


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## sancho

> *Samtel poised to take off with air force fighter fleet*
> 
> ...Thales' offset liability from the Mirage upgrade contract amounts to euro 441 million (Rs 3,000 crore). That induces Thales to source from SDS a significant share of the avionics (aviation-electronics) for upgrading the Mirage-2000. SDS, with whom Thales has a joint venture company, Samtel Thales Avionics, is poised to meet that requirement. SDS already supplies Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), India's sole aircraft manufacturer, with cockpit displays (multi-function displays, or MFDs) for the Sukhoi-30MKI fighters that are built at HAL's Nashik plant. The Ghaziabad-based company is also competing to build avionics for the IAF's forthcoming Sukhoi-30 MKI upgrade.
> 
> *And, if the Rafale fighter &#8212; built by Dassault with a large avionics component from Thales &#8212; is chosen by the MoD as the IAF's new medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA), SDS could benefit enormously from another wave of offset-driven orders for display systems and other avionics in the 126 MMRCA*...
> 
> ...*An example of the futuristic avionics that SDS hopes to supply is the Infra Red Search and Track (IRST) System*, standard kit in the Rafale as well as the Eurofighter Typhoon. This passive sensor detects enemy aircraft at ranges of 60-70 kilometres through the heat (infrared) they emit. Unlike a fighter's airborne radar, which gives away one's own position by emitting an electronic beam, an IRST is entirely stealthy, since it emits nothing.
> 
> *Thales plans to offer the IRST to the IAF on a &#8216;Buy and Make (Indian)&#8217; basis. This category of procurement (specified in the Defence Procurement Procedure of 2011, or DPP-2011) requires an Indian partner to absorb critical, high-end technologies and develop capabilities within India. Thales has told the IAF that Samtel Thales Avionics would do 50 per cent of the design and development work in India*...



Samtel poised to take off with air force fighter fleet

- we have the Kaveri - Snecma co-development based on Rafales M88
- Rafale is offered in MMRCA with full ToT of RBE 2 AESA radar + source codes 
- an IRST co-development is offered based on FSO
- Samtel already produces the Topsight HMS due to the JV with Thales
- MBDA France is (most likely, recent news wasn't that good) co-developing Maitri SAM, based on MICA missile

Nice package, although my favourite part is still missing, SPECTRA. :wink:


Recap: 

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-...f-rafale-mmrca-shortlist-131.html#post1951508


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## Abingdonboy

24th today guys, seems yet another date for announcement has slipped.


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## Jason bourne

Abingdonboy said:


> 24th today guys, seems yet another date for announcement has slipped.



i am stil a bit optimistic after the days work , announcment will be in the evening around 6 to 8 IF .....


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## ptltejas

Those who r in favour of Rafale say I. (parliament election)


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## Abingdonboy

ptltejas said:


> Those who r in favour of Rafale say I. (parliament election)


 
I abstain, I'm just so sick of this process I and both a/c are awesome so either one will be a win to me.







OR


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## The enlightened

ptltejas said:


> Those who r in favour of Rafale say I. (parliament election)


Our party has decided to walk out 'madam' speaker. This decision is not fair I say. I say scrap the deal and provide the money to building my statues. Atleast it will provide some employement to poor dalit families. Wait there is no place left for anymore statues. Let's build a new park and then place some beautiful statues.
And of course atleast 54% of the workers must be from the Dalit families.


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## ptltejas

The enlightened said:


> Our party has decided to walk out 'madam' speaker. This decision is not fair I say. I say scrap the deal and provide the money to building my statues. Atleast it will provide some employement to poor dalit families. Wait there is no place left for anymore statues. Let's build a new park and then place some beautiful statues.
> And of course atleast 54% of the workers must be from the Dalit families.
> 
> Damn I m not Madam and why in to inverted comma. The italy imported things injurous so little worry on ef. Great Wisdom sir.


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## sathya

i would have been surprised if results were announced today.. though i kept an eye on news.

May be in March.. we ll know..


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## The enlightened

Can we file an RFI regarding the delays in this deal.

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## sancho

> *BAE Systems says Oman requests more Typhoon details*
> 
> LONDON  British arms manufacturer BAE Systems said Monday that the the Sultanate of Oman has asked for more detailed proposals for the Eurofighter Typhoon, as it edged closer towards a possible deal.
> 
> Oman had stated its intention to purchase Typhoon aircraft in 2010 and on Monday it issued a "request for proposals" to BAE Systems...
> 
> ...Contractual negotiations are due to begin shortly, with BAE expecting it to involve 12 aircraft, to be delivered within 36 months after the deal is signed...



AFP: BAE Systems says Oman requests more Typhoon details




> *Oman Seeks BAE Systems Bid for Typhoon*
> 
> ...The request for proposals involves a squadrons worth of Tranche 3 standard aircraft  about 12 airframes  a support package and training for the Omani air force.
> 
> Last month, Oman ordered a second batch of 12 F-16 Block 50s from Lockheed Martin in a $600 million deal...



Oman Seeks BAE Systems Bid for Typhoon | Gannett Government Media | defensenews.com


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## tvsram1992

The enlightened said:


> Can we file an RFI regarding the delays in this deal.


that will be delayed too


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## jha

Just get over this deal..Or, better Cancel it...


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## sancho

> *Anonymous accusations on the selection of Gripen*
> 
> Anonymous mail, rumors, information carefully distilled, the atmosphere becomes unbearable in the two parliamentary committees to consider the purchase of new fighter aircraft. The Commission Security Policy of the National Council should decide on Tuesday the creation of a subcommittee to examine the conditions under which the choice of the Federal Council has focused on the Saab Gripen, at the expense of 'EADS Eurofighter or the Rafale...
> 
> ...According to the "Raven", the Gripen was unsatisfactory in flight during 2008 and 2009 assessments. Subsequently, the Swedish company had suggested improvements that appear only on paper. The evaluators had applied weighting factors related to technological risks not assessed. The project director had ordered to remove these weights, reducing the minimum in the Gripen.
> 
> Another charge, the Air Force wanted to evaluate the performance, endurance equipment before setting the number. Eurofighter or Rafale with 15, one would thus fulfilled the tasks of 24 Gripen, saving resources in personnel and maintenance. This approach would have been denied.
> 
> In addition, the Swedish manufacturer would have provided an offer directly to Maurer, who have expressed a preference for their device. He was asked the commander of the Air Force to reconsider its finding of negative reports. Charges dismissed by Armasuisse, while the Department of Defense refuses to respond to anonymous accusations...



Google Übersetzer


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## sancho

jha said:


> Or, better Cancel it...



And then? 

Forget about all those money we spend for the evaluations?
What will replace the Mig 21s, LCA MK around 2017?
Where do we get the neccessary techs and know how to improve our indigenous industry, or do you want to see continues failures in the engine or radar developments?
What else is the option, making us more dependent on Russia then we already are, or choosing the US with their you can buy anything, but we control it policy?

We need a decison for one of these fighters and the sooner the better for our forces and the industry!


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## Abingdonboy

It's 8.30 in India on 24th, I guess it isn't going to happen today then. FFS!!! The utter lack of communication by MoD/GoI regarding this MAMMOTH programme is beyond a joke.


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## ptltejas

this is pragnancy syndrop u enjoy many months but at last time be uncomfortable. Enjoy the fruit after much efforts for a month on tree. well eurofighter and rafale shortlisted on 27-4-11 if not mistake and its complete 9th month of born new indian aircraft.
its coincident


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## Archie

Bhaiyo
MMS and CONgress is too busy with state election planning 
Antony and Pranab Mukherji both , dont have time to come in front of the Media and talk about who has won , coz believe me both of them know who is the winner( EF ) 
But they have to take time out from planning there next move against Mayawati , to declare it

Maybe after Republic Day or on Republic day , we will get the info


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## sancho

> *CCS meets on Army Chief DoB?*
> 
> *A meeting of the high-level Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) took place in the capital on Tuesday* amid speculation that the date of birth (DoB) controversy involving Chief of Army Staff (COAS) Gen. V.K. Singh *as well as the MMRCA (combat aircraft) mega deal for the Indian Air Force was discussed.*
> 
> The CCS meeting is significant in view of the COAS petitioning the Supreme Court against the governments decision to regard May 10, 1950, as his DoB instead of May 10, 1951. Sources said various options before the government on the future course of action were discussed and this could have included discussions on who will be Gen. Singhs successor as COAS.
> While Gen. V.K. Singh is slated to retire on May 31 this year, speculation is rife that the government could announce the name of his successor soon. Eastern Command chief Lt. Gen. Bikram Singh is regarded as the frontrunner to be the next COAS. The government has so far maintained that it has acted with restraint and patience, an indication that is not inclined to take any action against the COAS such as dismissal.
> *Two defence deals, including the big-ticket deal for the acquisition of 126 MMRCA* (combat) aircraft for the Indian Air Force are also likely to be announced soon amid speculation that these too could have been discussed at Tuesdays CCS meeting.
> The French Dassault company  manufacturer of the Rafale  and the European (German, British, Italian, Spanish) EADS Eurofighter  manufacturer of the Eurofighter Typhoon aircraft  are the two only contenders now left.



CCS meets on Army Chief DoB? | The Asian Age

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## ptltejas

I pray for Rafale as winner

though typhoon has touch screen displays
more powerful engines and load
more better tech that pilot canot fly it beyond limit
fly or service ceiling is more 19000+ meters
more speed
voice command system
etc. etc.


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## tvsram1992

i pray delay should not be the winner


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## Bhairava

Still no news..? haha..hehe..hoho.

Now election commission will kick in with its directives and there goes....


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## KRAIT

The enlightened said:


> Our party has decided to walk out 'madam' speaker. This decision is not fair I say. I say scrap the deal and provide the money to building my statues. Atleast it will provide some employement to poor dalit families. Wait there is no place left for anymore statues. Let's build a new park and then place some beautiful statues.
> And of course atleast 54% of the workers must be from the Dalit families.



I wish she used the material and money used to erect these statues for shelter of homeless, aid to farmers, education of dalits, she would have won easily.


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## davidson

Mrca is cancelled...no money no talk sorry


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## Solar Flare

davidson said:


> Mrca is cancelled...no money no talk sorry



Go home and eat noodles false flag.

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## Sadhu

Solar Flare said:


> Go home and eat noodles false flag.





@Davidson
Order some chowmein .. with the 50 cents you collected for your all posts .

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## tvsram1992

davidson said:


> Mrca is cancelled...no money no talk sorry


busted


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## ptltejas

Rafale maNn
Just declare It.


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## kaykay

when the hell would it be declared?....in AD 2200 i guess....jeez!!!

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## Kazhugu

kaykay said:


> when the hell would it be declared?....in AD 2200 i guess....jeez!!!



21 Dec 2012


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## tvsram1992

^^^
I think they will wait till that date to check if world ends ... Then they will take decision if everything is fine ...


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## 帅的一匹

The bidding for MRCA is quite a long time already, when is the result declared? I think it's better like us to modify SU-27UK to J-15 similiar to SU-33 on the carrier than buying , which is more quick and cheap. Why Indian try some reverse engineering like we just did for saving money and better efficiency.Democracy election waste too much time in the progress, those politician don't mind who wins, does mattrer is who gives the most cash payback. This is actually what lots of Indians worry about.


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## SamantK

wanglaokan said:


> The bidding for MRCA is quite a long time already, when is the result declared? I think it's better like us to modify SU-27UK to J-15 similiar to SU-33 on the carrier than buying , which is more quick and cheap. Why Indian try some reverse engineering like we just did for saving money and better efficiency.Democracy election waste too much time in the progress, those politician don't mind who wins, does mattrer is who gives the most cash payback. This is actually what lots of Indians worry about.


please just because your nation will not elect doesnt mean we should not! everything said and done we respect our democracy and freedom... thanks but no thanks!


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## 帅的一匹

The main reason Indians lauched the MRCA bidding is to absorb know-how through direct procurement. Another reason is the Indian goverment want to build a mobile and strong airforce immediately to deter the potential threat form China. With the help of the western wold, IAF will grab and hold more technology of buiding advanced combat aircraft and developing into faster track. At the meantime, China had handed on stealthy J-20 and next generation of drone. Indian should work hard and catch up
, another regional military competition is begining......

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## 帅的一匹

Stupid Asian like to fight with each other while breading the cunning westerner verdict

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## KRAIT

wanglaokan said:


> Stupid Asian like to fight with each other while breading the cunning westerner verdict


 With few of us buying western weapons...


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## Alphacharlie

China Man we DONT Practice Copy right Infringement like Great China. You should be Happy we are taking time to give the final verdict. In the mean time please carry on developing your Great J20 and JF17


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## 帅的一匹

It is absolutely clear it was British empire colonized India for near 1 centuary. why so many Indians conceived haterd against China as nowaday?? Even brother in the same family had a time of quarelling. It is so stuipd to be afraid of China will stab at your back!! Seriously We don't want a war cause too many Chinese and Indians live under starvation and poverty line today, what they need is not firepower but food, clean water, safe place to live in. Just wake up everybody in Indian! Both of us dont afford the national banckrupt risk by thumping chest around the world like uncle Sam. Buy hundreds of MRCA does't help indians people live happy, it exhaust the tax pay from poor. The main resaon why china is developing military in such great speed is to deter japan(a country killed millions of Chinese ) and US(a country dont like us growing and developing), not Indian for that mcuh unless you really don't take us as friend.

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## Abhishek_

wanglaokan said:


> It is absolutely clear it was British empire colonized India for near 1 centuary. why so many Indians conceived haterd against China as nowaday?? Even brother in the same family had a time of quarelling. It is so stuipd to be afraid of China will stab at your back!! Seriously We don't want a war cause too many Chinese and Indians live under starvation and poverty line today, what they need is not firepower but food, clean water, safe place to live in. Just wake up everybody in Indian! Both of us dont afford the national banckrupt risk by thumping chest around the world like uncle Sam. Buy hundreds of MRCA does't help indians people live happy, it exhaust the tax pay from poor. The main resaon why china is developing military in such great speed is to deter japan(a country killed millions of Chinese ) and US(a country dont like us growing and developing), not Indian for that mcuh unless you really don't take us as friend.



the people in general dont harbor ill feelings towards each other, but geo-politics forces governments to play such dirty games.
in any case, you are on a defense forum which inherently has a self selecting population, many of them tend to be jingoistic and nationalist. 

The sane members should not loose sight of realities on the ground and don't feel gloomy because of some anonymous members on pdf. cheers buddy and welcome to pdf, enjoy your stay

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## KRAIT

wanglaokan said:


> It is absolutely clear it was British empire colonized India for near 1 centuary. why so many Indians conceived haterd against China as nowaday?? Even brother in the same family had a time of quarelling. It is so stuipd to be afraid of China will stab at your back!! Seriously We don't want a war cause too many Chinese and Indians live under starvation and poverty line today, what they need is not firepower but food, clean water, safe place to live in. Just wake up everybody in Indian! Both of us dont afford the national banckrupt risk by thumping chest around the world like uncle Sam. Buy hundreds of MRCA does't help indians people live happy, it exhaust the tax pay from poor. The main resaon why china is developing military in such great speed is to deter japan(a country killed millions of Chinese ) and US(a country dont like us growing and developing), not Indian for that mcuh unless you really don't take us as friend.



Nicely said and presented properly. But we also have security concerns like you have. Its better to be safe than sorry. We allocate hardly 3% of our gdp to defence. Most of the money goes for development purpose but 85% of money is never materialized into development and upliftment of poor.

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## 帅的一匹

Alphacharlie said:


> China Man we DONT Practice Copy right Infringement like Great China. You should be Happy we are taking time to give the final verdict. In the mean time please carry on developing your Great J20 and JF17


 Dont bring those naive sentence like 'give the final verdict' out, you dont know what you are saying.


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## KRAIT

wanglaokan said:


> Dont bring those naive sentence like 'give the final verdict' out, you dont know what you are saying.


Dont feed the troll....leave it.

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## 帅的一匹

KRAIT said:


> Nicely said and presented properly. But we also have security concerns like you have. Its better to be safe than sorry. We allocate hardly 3% of our gdp to defence. Most of the money goes for development purpose but 85% of money is never materialized into development and upliftment of poor.


We also have corruption and embezzlement problem in China just like India, no matter communist and democratic country all face this problem. A country might go crazy when it grab more firepower and reservation, but surely we dont wanna get that way and bring disaster to all Asian countries. We don't want bully the weakness , nor we allow those bully us and our allies.

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## Alphacharlie

wanglaokan said:


> Dont bring those naive sentence like 'give the final verdict' out, you dont know what you are saying.



Well the competion has already satrted Mr Han, we need to pay you back for 1962.


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## tvsram1992

wanglaokan said:


> The main reason Indians lauched the MRCA bidding is to absorb know-how through direct procurement. Another reason is the Indian goverment want to build a mobile and strong airforce immediately to deter the potential threat form China. With the help of the western wold, IAF will grab and hold more technology of buiding advanced combat aircraft and developing into faster track. At the meantime, China had handed on *stealthy J-20 *and *next generation of drone*. Indian should work hard and catch up
> , another regional military competition is begining......


 ever heard of something called FGFA & AURA?


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## Abhishek_

ignore the obvious troll comments wanglaokan

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## Archie

come on guys , give the guy a break

You dont want him to go ahead and start posting anti India rants like rest of his brotherens


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## Alphacharlie

wanglaokan - No coarseness intended.


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## Shaurya

@ *wanglaokan* and why do you think we will bully you or any other weaklings?? We are not CCPfor your information. Just count how many terrorist nations/nations that hate India exists around us. Then you might see the reason, besides, We have heard a lot about how generous and virtous the CCP is, so we know who is bullying who Ok??


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## 帅的一匹

katwe said:


> @ *wanglaokan* and why do you think we will bully you or any other weaklings?? We are not CCPfor your information. Just count how many terrorist nations/nations that hate India exists around us. Then you might see the reason, besides, We have heard a lot about how generous and virtous the CCP is, so we know who is bullying who Ok??



CCP can't stop us from get access to the truth and making right judgement. there is a place called Internet, do you know that? Don't twist it around.


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## Shaurya

wanglaokan said:


> CCP can't stop us from get access to the truth and making right judgement. there is a place called Internet, do you know that? Don't twist it around.



Why would I?? and if you really know the truth, I don't see any reason, why you are labelling defence procurement as bullying...


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## Icewolf

katwe said:


> @ *wanglaokan* and why do you think we will bully you or any other weaklings?? We are not CCPfor your information. Just count how many terrorist nations/nations that hate India exists around us. Then you might see the reason, besides, We have heard a lot about how generous and virtous the CCP is, so we know who is bullying who Ok??


 
ache bache yaah nahi bolte


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## Shaurya

Ok, abbu chan...


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## conworldus

So anyways, when is India going to buy this thing? Are they too busy negotiating the kickbacks still?


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## Abingdonboy

conworldus said:


> So anyways, when is India going to buy this thing? Are they too busy negotiating the kickbacks still?



Sometime soon is all we know I'm afraid. And regarding kickbacks, don't be a fool.


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## Shaurya

conworldus said:


> So anyways, when is India going to buy this thing? Are they too busy negotiating the kickbacks still?



They have many other things to do too, its not a 2 hour reality show.. they are presently checking which plane is more advanced and will provide more assistance in war like situations, plus there many other technological things they might be comparing. After that they will prepare a report and then we will hear the final decision. Ideally, the result should be out by late JAN- mid feb. but there has been no official commentary yet. For now, two aircrafts Eurofighter and typhoon are selected.


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## 帅的一匹

Try to build instead of buying. Saving money instead of receiving kickbacks. Don't take western support for granted , china is not fruit cake.

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## davidson

Delay Delay Delay........the tradition of India


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## BlackSonic

davidson said:


> Delay Delay Delay........the tradition of India



Why do you care? It has nothing to do with US now since you've lost it. Oh wait...its the tradition of US.

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## JAT BALWAN

^^ ignore him he`s nowhere from US....

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## conworldus

katwe said:


> They have many other things to do too, its not a 2 hour reality show.. they are presently checking which plane is more advanced and will provide more assistance in war like situations, plus there many other technological things they might be comparing. After that they will prepare a report and then we will hear the final decision. Ideally, the result should be out by late JAN- mid feb. but there has been no official commentary yet. For now, two aircrafts Eurofighter and typhoon are selected.



I am pretty sure it is the kickbacks. Dude, they have, like 7 years analyzing which aircraft is more advanced now? Really? Also how many times we have heard news "Decision out in 7 days, decision out in 3 weeks, decision imminent....? Since last year. I bet 2 scenarios:

1. A big scandal is brewing
2. India is low on cash amid the crisis, so they drag on to save face.

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## ARCHON

conworldus said:


> I am pretty sure it is the kickbacks. Dude, *they have, like 7 years analyzing which aircraft is more advanced now? Really? Also how many times we have heard news "Decision out in 7 days, decision out in 3 weeks, decision imminent....? Since last year*. I bet 2 scenarios:
> 
> 1. A big scandal is brewing
> 2. India is low on cash amid the crisis, so they drag on to save face.



7 Years back the present EFT wasnt available.. flight trials happened last year.. check ur brains.. consult a psychiatrist.

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## Storm Force

Conwordus 

If Indians can pay 4billion for C17 X 10 or $3 billion for AIRCRAFT CARRIER or $1 billion for AKULA SB

i am certain they will find $15 billion for 126 advanced MMRCA planes

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## conworldus

ARCHON said:


> 7 Years back the present EFT wasnt available.. flight trials happened last year.. check ur brains.. consult a psychiatrist.



Please, Eurofighter was inducted in 2003... 7 years is how long it took the JF-17 from development to service.

Look, I am not interested in India bashing. I am curious how India wants to wrap this up. News are apparently worthless now. Kickbacks is definitely there. I mean, how many things can you do in India without giving kickbacks? It is also true that India is very short on funds. The crisis has hit India hard.


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## Abingdonboy

conworldus said:


> Please, Eurofighter was inducted in 2003... 7 years is how long it took the JF-17 from development to service.
> 
> Look, I am not interested in India bashing. I am curious how India wants to wrap this up. News are apparently worthless now. Kickbacks is definitely there. I mean, how many things can you do in India without giving kickbacks? It is also true that India is very short on funds. The crisis has hit India hard.



The MMRCA project in its present form has only been going on 3-4 years, the decade time frame is an utter myth. Added to that taking only 1-2 years to flight/ weapons test and conduct theoretical analysis of 6 of the most advanced fighters on the planet is very impressive for which the IAF has been highly commended by domestic and foreign analysts. Additionally the technical process conducted by the IAF has been highly praised, given the sheer scale of the task given to them ( there were something like 7,000,000 pages of technical info to digest not to mention 200+ technical parameters IAF had outlined and selection board had to apply these to the participating a/c) they performed exceptionally and efficientally. The IAF judged all the ac on technical worth and presented the 2 ac (EFT, Rafele) who closest matched the IAF's exacting standards. The MoD consequently stated the final decision will be made purely on a technical/cost basis based on IAF recommendations. As the IAF (and Indian armed forces as a whole) are notoriously incorruptible, so you tell me where is the room for kickbacks? not to mention new stringent anti-corruption rules by the MoD for defence procurement not to mention the scale of this program and public exposure would mean there was sufficient deterrent to keep this corruption-free.


I'd like to see you do a better job.

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## conworldus

If the Indian armed forces are clean, why is India buying the Russian second hand carrier at double the price of a new one? Are you sure India was just being a bad negotiator?

The 6 fighter jets are not development projects. They are finished aircraft! Unless you need to test the reliability, it really doesn't take over a month or so to test all the parameters of a finished aircraft. The rest is just up for bureaucracy. Issuing tons of parameters is the best way to make money. A corrupt system is always the most complicated system, from which you can extort money for every rule, you know.

Well, in the end, I am just throwing some suspicion. I mean, who else in the world take so long to buy an aircraft? The RFI was issued in 2001, over a decade ago.






Abingdonboy said:


> The MMRCA project in its present form has only been going on 3-4 years, the decade time frame is an utter myth. Added to that taking only 1-2 years to flight/ weapons test and conduct theoretical analysis of 6 of the most advanced fighters on the planet is very impressive for which the IAF has been highly commended by domestic and foreign analysts. Additionally the technical process conducted by the IAF has been highly praised, given the sheer scale of the task given to them ( there were something like 7,000,000 pages of technical info to digest not to mention 200+ technical parameters IAF had outlined and selection board had to apply these to the participating a/c) they performed exceptionally and efficientally. The IAF judged all the ac on technical worth and presented the 2 ac (EFT, Rafele) who closest matched the IAF's exacting standards. The MoD consequently stated the final decision will be made purely on a technical/cost basis based on IAF recommendations. As the IAF (and Indian armed forces as a whole) are notoriously incorruptible, so you tell me where is the room for kickbacks? not to mention new stringent anti-corruption rules by the MoD for defence procurement not to mention the scale of this program and public exposure would mean there was sufficient deterrent to keep this corruption-free.
> 
> 
> I'd like to see you do a better job.


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## Alphacharlie

MRCA - Offically Tender Launched 2007

Note - Before an Tender is issues one has to create Hype for requirement of a Weapon system. This happens every where. 5 Years for evaluation and discussion. Be rest assured the deal will be closed any time now.

India is Buying a second Hand Carrier because :-
a) We need a Power Projection system Immediately.
b) Gorshkov is available at much cheaper price. Yes do, concede there has been price escalations. Note Same carrier in West will cost in range of 3-5 Billion Dollars
c) We Got "MONEY"


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## sancho

wanglaokan said:


> Try to build instead of buying. Saving money instead of receiving kickbacks. Don't take western support for granted , china is not fruit cake.



You obviously have no idea what you are talking about! China is spending money without any limit and where is the benefit in engine development? Nowhere, you have the same problems just like we have with our engine developments. That's why China still needs to buy engines from Russia and India from western countries. Money isn't equal to decades of experience and know how and that's why China still needs to redesign or base developments on foreign designs, just like India needs foreign countries to participate on own developments.
Btw, redesigning Su 27s and 33s will not improve Chinese industry, just like it wouldn't help Indian industry to stick with using older designs only. A good example for this is, that China needed access to the Su 33s and the carrier of the Ukraine, before you couldn't go for J15 or for the development of own carriers. All the money you had or invested didn't help you to develop it on your own or any faster right? India instead developed N-LCA or IAC 1, with foreign consultancy partners or ToT and that is they key in MMRCA that you didn't understood yet. 

*We want to pay more for foreign MMRCAs not only because we want new fighters, but to get latest ToT, JVs and co-developments with foreign companies, because that improves our industry at the same time too!*

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## sancho

Some interesting points from a Swiss journalist about their competition:



> The swiss evaluation had ten modules. *The Rafale won the two flight modules (flight tests + projected flight capabilities).
> 
> The Rafale also won the module about the ability to maintain a an alert status during a long period, and the module about military cooperation.*



Rafale News: Switzerland, Dassault strikes back


Which once again would confirm superiority over EF in the A2A field, although many people "thinks" that the EF is much better in this field with it's bigger radar and the higher engine thrust.


Recap:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/4347-mrca-news-discussions-420.html#post2344685

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## Shaurya

conworldus said:


> If the Indian armed forces are clean, why is India buying the Russian second hand carrier at double the price of a new one? Are you sure India was just being a bad negotiator?
> 
> The 6 fighter jets are not development projects. They are finished aircraft! Unless you need to test the reliability, it really doesn't take over a month or so to test all the parameters of a finished aircraft. The rest is just up for bureaucracy. Issuing tons of parameters is the best way to make money. A corrupt system is always the most complicated system, from which you can extort money for every rule, you know.
> 
> Well, in the end, I am just throwing some suspicion. I mean, who else in the world take so long to buy an aircraft? The RFI was issued in 2001, over a decade ago.



LOL here comes another paid CCP troll , eager to show his great china's superiority, LOL. and by the way, for a junk like JF-17 (a copy of russian plane) it shouldn't have taken more than 3 years, that too the process began in 2003 (lots of technology available to china)...  

and why are you worried about negotiation?? there are people out there who know what they are doing, we don't have a habit of stealing other country's designs and making cheap copies.. R&D costs more than a ready made submarine, besides we wanted this urgently and hence it was bought from Russia... atleast we respect other country's product and BUY them china doesn't even do that


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## Abingdonboy

conworldus said:


> If the Indian armed forces are clean, why is India buying the Russian second hand carrier at double the price of a new one? Are you sure India was just being a bad negotiator?
> 
> The 6 fighter jets are not development projects. They are finished aircraft! Unless you need to test the reliability, it really doesn't take over a month or so to test all the parameters of a finished aircraft. The rest is just up for bureaucracy. Issuing tons of parameters is the best way to make money. A corrupt system is always the most complicated system, from which you can extort money for every rule, you know.
> 
> Well, in the end, I am just throwing some suspicion. I mean, who else in the world take so long to buy an aircraft? The RFI was issued in 2001, over a decade ago.



What a vague and inaccurate response. India is paying the increased price because the initial price assessment was very sloppy and superficial, it was not until upgrades were significantly underway that a true scale of the disrepair was gauged. Not to mention the shipyard has effectively paid for expansion of the yard by Indian finance. Once all the issues were realised India had already forked out significant treasure and was some years down the road, so India had the choice of walking away and losing significant money and waiting many more years to find other replacements or carrying on with the process. And if there were any unscrupulous tactics (as you are suggesting) wouldn't they be on the Russian side and not India's fault? 


Regarding the selection process, you clearly have no idea what you are talking about. We are talking about the biggest defence deal of the decade and the process of evaluation and testing is extremely arduous especially given the IAF's exceedingly high standards and the unique challenges associated with operating in India. It was bound to take a significant time period. The fact no competitor/commentator has claimed foul play (including any of the disgruntled axed competitors) speaks volumes. If there was even the sniff of corruption there is no doubt the players would have jumped on it immediately and created a massive s**t storm. 



None of your points discredits the Indian armed forces, they did their job, ( and of course politics is always going to play a part) they are known for their professionalism and incorruptible nature. Do your homework.

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## conworldus

Exactly. Another Indian resorting to personal attack/slandering.



katwe said:


> LOL here comes another paid CCP troll , eager to show his great china's superiority, LOL. and by the way, for a junk like JF-17 (a copy of russian plane) it shouldn't have taken more than 3 years, that too the process began in 2003 (lots of technology available to china)...
> 
> and why are you worried about negotiation?? there are people out there who know what they are doing, we don't have a habit of stealing other country's designs and making cheap copies.. R&D costs more than a ready made submarine, besides we wanted this urgently and hence it was bought from Russia... atleast we respect other country's product and BUY them china doesn't even do that


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## Black Widow

conworldus said:


> Please, Eurofighter was inducted in 2003... 7 years is how long it took the JF-17 from development to service.
> 
> Look, I am not interested in India bashing.



Thanks for your interest. But AFAIK No country can make world class fighter planes in 10-15 years time span, If they are claiming so then there could be only 2 possibilities
a) They have stolen the design and technology and made cheap rip-off
2. or, they are lying. 

FC1 is totally different story, I have seen ppl are prejudiced over LCA while they forget the History of FC1. 

Project Sabre II was an attempt to develop a low-cost multi-role combat aircraft based on an existing design, the Chengdu F-7M (a Chinese derivative of the MiG-21). The project was initiated by the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) and the Grumman Aerospace Corporation was contracted to work with specialists from the PAF and China to define and develop the concept. The PAF had left the project by March 1989 because it was considered uneconomic.[2] [3] In November 1988 it was reported that Grumman and CATIC would begin a new study to upgrade the F-7M into the Super 7.[4] Grumman pulled out when the United States placed sanctions on China after the Tiananmen Square protests of 1989. China continued with the project until it was re-branded as the FC-1 in the early 1990s.

I get very hurt when I see the time line calculation of LCA. When you calculate LCA timeline you start from this incident "1983:-DRDO obtained permission to initiate a programme to design and develop a Light Combat Aircraft". But while calculating time line of FC1 you forget the history of FC1. Leave this apart.

FC1 is considered as scrap design of MiG33 by aviation enthusiasts. Its is not hidden that Mikoyan Actively participated in Design phase of FC1. And truth is *We can make plane like FC1 in 10-15 years without any rip-off, but we can not make EFT or Rafael*. EFT and Rafael are generation ahead of LCA or FC1. 

Having said that I agree with your suggestion that India should focus more on home made products. We have Made LCA, our AMCA will not take that much time coz we have many subsystems ready.

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## Jason bourne

No Deal Before March, But MMRCA Lowest Bidder "Soon": Minister 

The Indian M-MRCA fighter deal won't be signed before the financial year draws down, Indian defence minister AK Antony told reporters in Delhi today, but confirmed that the lowest bidder would be declared "soon". It had been near certain that the results of the toss-up between bids by Dassault and EADS would be announced this month, though it now appears to have slipped into February...


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## Shaurya

conworldus said:


> Exactly. Another Indian resorting to personal attack/slandering.



didn't like the taste of your own medicine??


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## Bl[i]tZ

The government will not sign a multi-billion dollar deal to buy fighter jets before this fiscal year ending in March, defence minister AK Antony told reporters on Tuesday.

However, New Delhi will "soon" announce the lowest bidder for the contract worth about $11 billion, two defence ministry sources told Reuters separately.

Two European contenders are left in the race to sell India more than a 100 fighter jets and help revamp the country's creaking defence equipment in line with its rising global clout.

Still in the fray are Eurofighter, which makes the Typhoon fighter jet, and a four-nation consortium of EADS, representing Germany and Spain, Britain's BAE Systems and Italy's Finmeccanica.

Their competitor is France's Dassault, which makes the Rafale plane.

No fighter jet deal before end March: Antony - Hindustan Times

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## Abhishek_

new thread is a waste. post in the sticky

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## Jason bourne

have posted there


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## Jon Snow

of course deal wont be signed by march - the whole process of contract negotiations is left and then the deal will have to be cleared by finance ministry - expect signing by mid to end of this year. 
But for negotiations to even begin they need to announce the L1.

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## peep

MMRCA == Kyonki Saans Bhi kabhi Bahoo Thi. Doesn't fcuking stops. Episodes keep on coming.

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## Android

those 128 planes would be inducted when the time will arrive when we should have been thinking of replacing those old 128 planes


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## prabhakar

What is this ...!!!

*The source added the defense ministry was considering further extending the tender to buy an additional 80 or so jets, saying bidders excluded from the current process might be permitted to take part.*

what is cooking guys ???

No India jet fighter deal before end March: minister | Reuters

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## INDIAISM

hmm March 20##.....of which Year?

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## T90TankGuy

the money cant be allocated from the current budget probably . its just 2 months away . waited so long so a couple months wont matter.


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## peep

INDIAISM said:


> hmm March 20##.....of which Year?



LOOOOOOOOOOOLLLL.


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## Abingdonboy

prabhakar said:


> What is this ...!!!
> 
> *The source added the defense ministry was considering further extending the tender to buy an additional 80 or so jets, saying bidders excluded from the current process might be permitted to take part.*
> 
> what is cooking guys ???
> 
> No India jet fighter deal before end March: minister | Reuters



Very good question. Trying to keep all sides happy? We know the US was particuarly upset with the news last April. Would be foolish to add yet another type into the IAF's already diverse fleet, but maybe good in terms of speed as two separate manufactures producing ac simultaneously for the IAF's quickly depleting fleet of Bisons. Aswell as the industrail benifits of having yet another global player invesring heavily in the Indian aerospace indistery. But the logistics would be a nightmare.


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## prabhakar

^^^f- 35 most probably ...but what about PAkFA ?


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## Jason bourne

prabhakar said:


> What is this ...!!!
> 
> *The source added the defense ministry was considering further extending the tender to buy an additional 80 or so jets, saying bidders excluded from the current process might be permitted to take part.*
> 
> what is cooking guys ???
> 
> No India jet fighter deal before end March: minister | Reuters



this source also said rafale is l1 bidder and IAF like that plane ?


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## thinkingcap81

Rafale Wins?

*New Delhi:* Sources have told NDTV that the French aviation company Dassault Rafale has won the $10.4 billion deal for supplying fighter aircraft to India. The Indian Airforce plans to buy 126 aircraft over the next ten years.

The first 18 aircraft will be bought off the shelf. The rest 118 will be manufactured in partnership with an Indian company.

There were six contenders for the worlds biggest defence deal which included MIG- 35, F-16 Falcon, F-18 Hornet, Gripen Euro-Fighter, Typhoon and Rafale. Of these, the Typhoon and Rafale were shortlisted. The rest were rejected as they didn't meet the technical qualifications.

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## Thundersword

Jason bourne said:


> No Deal Before March, But MMRCA Lowest Bidder "Soon": Minister
> 
> The Indian M-MRCA fighter deal won't be signed before the financial year draws down, Indian defence minister AK Antony told reporters in Delhi today, but confirmed that the lowest bidder would be declared "soon". It had been near certain that the results of the toss-up between bids by Dassault and EADS would be announced this month, though it now appears to have slipped into February...


Actually just saw on livefist that government issued letter of intent to rafale..... so rafale confirmed....... that's what livefist says but.... who knows maybe a rumor??!


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## DMLA

Need to link it properly buddy!! 

Dassault Rafale wins USD 10.4 billion Indian Air Force jet fighter deal: Sources

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## KRAIT

Thundersword said:


> Actually just saw on livefist that government issued letter of intent to rafale..... so rafale confirmed....... that's what livefist says but.... who knows maybe a rumor??!


Aapke munh main ghee shakkar... I wish this rumour is true.


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## soccerhero

*Dassault Rafale wins USD 10.4 billion Indian Air Force jet fighter deal: Sources*

New Delhi: Sources have told NDTV that the French aviation company Dassault Rafale has won the $10.4 billion deal for supplying fighter aircraft to India. The Indian Airforce plans to buy 126 aircraft over the next ten years.

The first 18 aircraft will be bought off the shelf. The rest 118 will be manufactured in partnership with an Indian company.

There were six contenders for the worlds biggest defence deal which included MIG- 35, F-16 Falcon, F-18 Hornet, Gripen Euro-Fighter, Typhoon and Rafale. Of these, the Typhoon and Rafale were shortlisted. The rest were rejected as they didn't meet the technical qualifications.

Source

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## nemesis102

HOT NEWSSSS................. *Dassault rafale wins usd 10.4-billion indian air force jet-fighter-deal*

Dassault Rafale wins USD 10.4 billion Indian Air Force jet fighter deal: Sources


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## prabhakar

New Delhi: Sources have told NDTV that the French aviation company Dassault Rafale has won the $10.4 billion deal for supplying fighter aircraft to India. The Indian Airforce plans to buy 126 aircraft over the next ten years.

The first 18 aircraft will be bought off the shelf. The rest 118 will be manufactured in partnership with an Indian company.

There were six contenders for the worlds biggest defence deal which included MIG- 35, F-16 Falcon, F-18 Hornet, Gripen Euro-Fighter, Typhoon and Rafale. Of these, the Typhoon and Rafale were shortlisted. The rest were rejected as they didn't meet the technical qualifications.


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## Jon Snow

Not my personal choice, but still a very capable machine , definitely a huge boost to iaf war fighting capabilities.


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## Shardul.....the lion

Dassault Rafale wins USD 10.4 billion Indian Air Force jet fighter deal: Sources

Dassault Rafale wins USD 10.4 billion Indian Air Force jet fighter deal: Sources

NDTV Correspondent, Updated: January 31, 2012 17:08 IST 


New Delhi: Sources have told NDTV that the French aviation company Dassault Rafale has won the $10.4 billion deal for supplying fighter aircraft to India. The Indian Airforce plans to buy 126 aircraft over the next ten years.

The first 18 aircraft will be bought off the shelf. The rest 118 will be manufactured in partnership with an Indian company.

There were six contenders for the worlds biggest defence deal which included MIG- 35, F-16 Falcon, F-18 Hornet, Gripen Euro-Fighter, Typhoon and Rafale. Of these, the Typhoon and Rafale were shortlisted. The rest were rejected as they didn't meet the technical qualifications.


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## soccerhero

*Dassault Rafale wins USD 10.4 billion Indian Air Force jet fighter deal: Sources*

New Delhi: Sources have told NDTV that the French aviation company Dassault Rafale has won the $10.4 billion deal for supplying fighter aircraft to India. The Indian Airforce plans to buy 126 aircraft over the next ten years.

The first 18 aircraft will be bought off the shelf. The rest 118 will be manufactured in partnership with an Indian company.

There were six contenders for the worlds biggest defence deal which included MIG- 35, F-16 Falcon, F-18 Hornet, Gripen Euro-Fighter, Typhoon and Rafale. Of these, the Typhoon and Rafale were shortlisted. The rest were rejected as they didn't meet the technical qualifications.

Source

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## INDIAISM

atlast a good news for frenchy baby...


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## Abingdonboy

Just when I had been swayed to EFT!!!


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## kaykay

yeah and thats the news of the decade.........5 years and now we know the winner.....RAFALE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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## Skull and Bones

Still not sure, let any sources confirm it.

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## Jon Snow

rafale has won - congrats to dassault and all the rafale supporters here - heck to all indians ( even if they supported eft, at least we are getting an amazing machine)

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## GURU DUTT

thinkingcap81 said:


> Rafale Wins?
> 
> *New Delhi:* Sources have told NDTV that the French aviation company Dassault Rafale has won the $10.4 billion deal for supplying fighter aircraft to India. The Indian Airforce plans to buy 126 aircraft over the next ten years.
> 
> The first 18 aircraft will be bought off the shelf. The rest 118 will be manufactured in partnership with an Indian company.
> 
> There were six contenders for the worlds biggest defence deal which included MIG- 35, F-16 Falcon, F-18 Hornet, Gripen Euro-Fighter, Typhoon and Rafale. Of these, the Typhoon and Rafale were shortlisted. The rest were rejected as they didn't meet the technical qualifications.



but sir some guy started a thread some time ago that typhoon has won the contract ....which one is true & is this official or just a rumor????? kindly give some authentic source????????


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## ARCHON



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## prabhakar

Those who can, watch Headlines today NOW 

Air chief marshal retd S Krishnaswamy speaking


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## KRAIT

Bad news to EU eurofighter consortium . They had their finger crossed as this tender would have provided numerous job oppurtunities.

Eurozone unemployment hits new record

BBC News - Eurozone unemployment hits new record

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## Jon Snow

Skull and Bones said:


> Still not sure, let any sources confirm it.


 
I think its confirmed - spark posted it back on indiandefence - thats good enough for me.


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## Abingdonboy

After how many blows to the Rafale, how many times it has been ruled out or supposedly pulled out and it goes on to win?!!



India loves an underdog!

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## agamdilawari

Gr8 decision nevertheless.


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## prabhakar

Rafale Wins MCRA

he French Dassault fighter aircraft Rafale has been selected to be the Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) of the Indian Air Force (IAF).

Dassault beat the four-nation consortium&#8217;s Eurofighter on price, with the fighter being identified as L1, or the lowest technically qualified bid.

StratPost understands that Dassault has been issued a letter from the Ministry of Defense, communicating their selection.

Three representatives of the Eurofighter consortium were also summoned to the Ministry of Defense at South Block on Tuesday afternoon, when they were informed of their loss in the competition.

The bid was originally estimated to be worth USD 10.4 billion, as per the budget estimate approved in 2007, but it is likely to have faced a substantial escalation in cost, keeping in mind inflation and the fall in the value of the Indian Rupee.

Rafale wins MMRCA | StratPost


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## T90TankGuy

what???????

i always thought it would be EF


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## jackyy

much waited decision and awesome decision


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## fast and furious

Yaaaaaaar.

Love this Machine.










But Rafale will rock as well.


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## BelligerentPacifist

Un moment ludique pour le Rafale, si la nouvelle est vraie. On peut se congratuler enfin!

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## prabhu

sry couldn control myself the thread's gonna be a rampage


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## Hu Jintao

18 members and 32 guests


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## Jade

deleted .....


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## thinkingcap81

GURU DUTT said:


> but sir some guy started a thread some time ago that typhoon has won the contract ....which one is true & is this official or just a rumor????? kindly give some authentic source????????



Hi Guru,

Sue NDTV for that. If true there will be lots of guys who can back it up through authentic sources. Waiting for them.

Edit: confirmation is coming fast and furious !!!

PS: Do i have the honour of posting it first at *defence.pk*?

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## GURU DUTT

NDTV says it's *SOURCE* has said that rafale has won but but but ....is that official???????????????


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## jackyy

Hu Jintao said:


> 18 members and 32 guests



select atleast local name


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## IND151

Jon Snow said:


> Not my personal choice, but still a very capable machine , definitely a huge boost to iaf war fighting capabilities.



right.

with mig 27s being phased out we need new gen A2G fighters and rafale fills that spot.

*if this news is true we will see this forum lightened by Sparks of joy.*


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## Rupeshkumar

wowwwwwwwwwwwww. great !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## westtowel

http://livefist.blogspot.in/2011/05/indian-politician-says-sonia-gandhi-has.html


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## prabhakar

Today is my b'day and such a great news... It has made my day...

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## nemesis102

(Reuters) - India will not sign a multi-billion dollar contract to buy European fighter jets before the fiscal year ends in March, the defense minister said on Tuesday, about a deal to revamp ageing weapons in line with the country's rising global influence.

"Not this financial year," Defence Minister A.K. Antony told Reuters in reply to a question about when the deal that has been in the works since 2007 would be signed.

However, India will "soon" announce the lowest bidder for the tender for 126 jets worth up to $15 billion, two government sources with knowledge of the deal told Reuters.

*One of the sources said France's Rafale jet was the likely winner*, adding that the defense ministry was* now considering buying another 80 or so jets and could invite bidders excluded from the current process to take part.*

Already Asia's third-largest economy and growing fast, India has emerged as the world's leading importer of weapons as it jostles with China for influence and reach on the world stage.

Dassault's (AVMD.PA) Rafale is competing with the Typhoon fighter made by four-nation consortium Eurofighter in what is currently one of the largest global weapons tenders.

"It is a long process. The file has not come to my table," Antony said, adding that the finance ministry and a cabinet panel headed by the prime minister have to look at the agreement after he signs off.

The Eurofighter Typhoon is built by the German and Spanish branches of EADS (EAD.PA), Britain's BAE Systems (BAES.L) and Italy's Finmeccanica (SIFI.MI). Dassault is French.

American, Russian and Swedish bids were rejected in April.

The U.S. company Lockheed Martin (LMT.N) has kept alive hopes of selling its F-35 Joint Strike Fighter to India.

One defense ministry source with knowledge of the negotiations said the life-time cost of the tender including training and maintenance may reach $15 billion.

Previous estimates put the cost around $11 billion.

The defense ministry source said each *Rafale was $4 million to $5 million cheaper* than its rival and the plane was preferred by the Air Force.

"Unit-wise, the French plane is much cheaper than the Eurofighter. Moreover, the Indian Airforce, which is well-equipped with French fighters, is favoring the French fighter," said the source, who asked not be named.

(Reporting by Manoj Kumar and Nigam Prusty; Writing by Frank Jack Daniel; Editing by Malini Menon and Ed Lane)

No India jet fighter deal before end March: minister | Reuters


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## rama

GURU DUTT said:


> but sir some guy started a thread some time ago that typhoon has won the contract ....which one is true & is this official or just a rumor????? kindly give some authentic source????????


link is already provived 
Dassault Rafale wins USD 10.4 billion Indian Air Force jet fighter deal: Sources


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## Hu Jintao

jackyy said:


> select atleast local name


There are currently 62 users browsing this thread. (22 members and 40 guests)

Hu Jintao
westtowel
prabhakar
Rupeshkumar
GURU DUTT
prabhu
nick_indian
Jade
IND151
fast and furious
Major Shaitan Singh
thinkingcap81
Skull and Bones
Jon Snow
AbhimanyuShrivastav
Shardul.....the lion
jbgt90
ARCHON
Bagavady
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## z9-ec

Congrats to the Indians. 

Shocking decision though. Eurofighter is superior by all means.

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## Jade

France's Dassault lowest bidder for India jet buy: sources | Reuters


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## boris

Its not a confirmation from the MOD,I still think the Typhoon will blow out the Rafale.


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## Jon Snow

economic times says rafale bid was significantly lower than eft bid - seems eft was never in it - would post the source but am using mobile.


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## jackyy

congrats to rafale for their first foreign sale

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## fast and furious

z9-ec said:


> Congrats to the Indians.
> 
> Shocking decision though, Eurofighter is superior by all means.



And How many squadrons of Eurofighter do you have ?

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## IND151

BelligerentPacifist said:


> Un moment ludique pour le Rafale, si la nouvelle est vraie. On peut se congratuler enfin!



Je ne comprends pas


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## KRAIT

GURU DUTT said:


> NDTV says it's *SOURCE* has said that rafale has won but but but ....is that official???????????????


No official declaration yet. We are just celebrating without any confirmation coz for long time didn't have anything to do so. 

BTW... *IF TRUE* ...choosing single vendor is good, and being sole buyer of Rafale may push french to make deliveries fast inorder to boost their marketing campaign in future.


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## GURU DUTT

thinkingcap81 said:


> Hi Guru,
> 
> Sue NDTV for that. It true there will be lots of guys who can back it up through authentic sources. Waiting for them.



sirjee meri kya aukaat jo main NDTV ko seu karoon ????????anyway lets see ...what happens ,personaly i think its just another bluff!!!!!!


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## Contract Killer

Congrats Rafale. I am sad for EF.

But at last decision has come. Congrats to IAF


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## Windjammer

fast and furious said:


> And How many squadrons of Eurofighter do you have ?



One could ask, how many countries operate Rafale compared to the EF Typhoon. ?


----------



## Jon Snow

Not a bluff - too many channels reporting it for it to be a bluff.


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## Don Jaguar

At last rafale wins.


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## prabhakar

GURU DUTT said:


> sirjee meri kya aukaat jo main NDTV ko seu karoon ????????anyway lets see ...what happens ,personaly i think its just another bluff!!!!!!



it is official now... all the news channel are reporting the same.. check it out mate


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## z9-ec

fast and furious said:


> And How many squadrons of Eurofighter do you have ?



Where did I say we have Eurofighter? it is a well known fact that Eurofighter is deemed as closest in comparison to a 5th generation fighter. Anyways, it's good for PAF as we have had some exposure to Rafale.


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## jha

Rafale outbid EFT by more than $2 Bill...What the hell.. What was EADS thinking..?

Hope to see stretched BARACUDA in IN now...


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## KRAIT

Jon Snow said:


> Not a bluff - too many channels reporting it for it to be a bluff.


Kindly provide more source... Haven't found yet... thanks in advance.


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## T90TankGuy

all news channels are reporting this . just came from the cafeteria . saw them all .


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## fast and furious

Windjammer said:


> One could ask, how many countries operate Rafale compared to the EF Typhoon. ?




Not many in our neighbourhood.

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## sudhir007

Rafale wins MMRCA | StratPost

the French Dassault fighter aircraft Rafale has been selected to be the Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) of the Indian Air Force (IAF).

Dassault beat the four-nation consortiums Eurofighter on price, with the fighter being identified as L1, or the lowest technically qualified bid.

StratPost understands that Dassault has been issued a letter from the Ministry of Defense, communicating their selection.

Three representatives of the Eurofighter consortium were also summoned to the Ministry of Defense at South Block on Tuesday afternoon, when they were informed of their loss in the competition.

The bid was originally estimated to be worth USD 10.4 billion, as per the budget estimate approved in 2007, but it is likely to have faced a substantial escalation in cost, keeping in mind inflation and the fall in the value of the Indian Rupee.


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## zer_0

OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

42 members and 74 guest................

anyways both the machines r capable..............

congratz to iaf!!!!!


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## seethru

There are currently 116 users browsing this thread. (42 members and 74 guests)

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## T90TankGuy

Windjammer said:


> One could ask, how many countries operate Rafale compared to the EF Typhoon. ?



stop having sour grapes mate. chill.

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## Hu Jintao

By Manoj Kumar and Nigam Prusty

NEW DELHI, Jan 31 (Reuters) - India will not sign a multi-billion dollar contract to buy European fighter jets before the fiscal year ends in March, the defence minister said on Tuesday, about a deal to revamp ageing weapons in line with the country's rising global influence.

"Not this financial year," Defence Minister A.K. Antony told Reuters in reply to a question about when the deal that has been in the works since 2007 would be signed.

However, India will "soon" announce the lowest bidder for the tender for 126 jets worth up to $15 billion, two government sources with knowledge of the deal told Reuters.

One of the sources said France's Rafale jet was the likely winner, adding that the defence ministry was now considering buying another 80 or so jets and could invite bidders excluded from the current process to take part.

Already Asia's third-largest economy and growing fast, India has emerged as the world's leading importer of weapons as it jostles with China for influence and reach on the world stage.

Dassault's Rafale is competing with the Typhoon fighter made by four-nation consortium Eurofighter in what is currently one of the largest global weapons tenders.

"It is a long process. The file has not come to my table," Antony said, adding that the finance ministry and a cabinet panel headed by the prime minister have to look at the agreement after he signs off.

The Eurofighter Typhoon is built by the German and Spanish branches of EADS, Britain's BAE Systems and Italy's Finmeccanica. Dassault is French.

American, Russian and Swedish bids were rejected in April.

The U.S. company Lockheed Martin has kept alive hopes of selling its F-35 Joint Strike Fighter to India.

One defence ministry source with knowledge of the negotiations said the life-time cost of the tender including training and maintenance may reach $15 billion.

Previous estimates put the cost around $11 billion.

The defence ministry source said each Rafale was $4 million to $5 million cheaper than its rival and the plane was preferred by the Air Force.

"Unit-wise, the French plane is much cheaper than the Eurofighter. Moreover, the Indian Airforce, which is well-equipped with French fighters, is favouring the French fighter," said the source, who asked not be named.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/01/31/india-defence-idUSL4E8CV3XR20120131


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## Shardul.....the lion

Finally a decision.....
Thank god....

Both typhoon and rafale were good, so least bidder will get the cream.


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## Kesang

Self delete.


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## GURU DUTT

prabhakar said:


> it is official now... all the news channel are reporting the same.. check it out mate




Great news indeed some two months back even my source had said that & i dont remeber corectly, he said that rafales compatiabillity with GE engine & kabini with french core has already dicided the winner but still i think typoon will not be a LOOSER ??????


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## fast and furious

z9-ec said:


> Where did I say we have Eurofighter? it is a well known *fact *that Eurofighter is deemed as closest in comparison to a 5th generation fighter.



Everybody has a right to have his opinion but not his FACT.

P.S.-Personally I also like the EFT.


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## jackyy

(Reuters) - India will not sign a multi-billion dollar contract to buy European fighter jets before the fiscal year ends in March, the defense minister said on Tuesday, about a deal to revamp ageing weapons in line with the country's rising global influence.

"Not this financial year," Defence Minister A.K. Antony told Reuters in reply to a question about when the deal that has been in the works since 2007 would be signed.

However, India will "soon" announce the lowest bidder for the tender for 126 jets worth up to $15 billion, two government sources with knowledge of the deal told Reuters.

*One of the sources said France's Rafale jet was the likely winner, adding that the defense ministry was now considering buying another 80 or so jets and could invite bidders excluded from the current process to take part.*

Already Asia's third-largest economy and growing fast, India has emerged as the world's leading importer of weapons as it jostles with China for influence and reach on the world stage.

Dassault's (AVMD.PA) Rafale is competing with the Typhoon fighter made by four-nation consortium Eurofighter in what is currently one of the largest global weapons tenders.

"It is a long process. The file has not come to my table," Antony said, adding that the finance ministry and a cabinet panel headed by the prime minister have to look at the agreement after he signs off.

The Eurofighter Typhoon is built by the German and Spanish branches of EADS (EAD.PA), Britain's BAE Systems (BAES.L) and Italy's Finmeccanica (SIFI.MI). Dassault is French.

American, Russian and Swedish bids were rejected in April.

*The U.S. company Lockheed Martin (LMT.N) has kept alive hopes of selling its F-35 Joint Strike Fighter to India.*

*One defense ministry source with knowledge of the negotiations said the life-time cost of the tender including training and maintenance may reach $15 billion.*

Previous estimates put the cost around $11 billion.

*The defense ministry source said each Rafale was $4 million to $5 million cheaper than its rival and the plane was preferred by the Air Force.*

*"Unit-wise, the French plane is much cheaper than the Eurofighter. Moreover, the Indian Airforce, which is well-equipped with French fighters, is favoring the French fighter," said the source, who asked not be named.*


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## Jon Snow

Windjammer said:


> One could ask, how many countries operate Rafale compared to the EF Typhoon. ?


 
Come on mate, lets not ruin this thread - we've waited years for this - the debate on which is better will go on long after this day.

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## seethru

Can anyone explain the criteria for the bid selection.
Is it just the cost? It appears so.


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## KRAIT

z9-ec said:


> Where did I say we have Eurofighter? it is a well known fact that Eurofighter is deemed as closest in comparison to a 5th generation fighter.


Agree with you. But there are many misconception about Rafale and many underrate it just coz of few reason. Its perfect for india as we already have infrastructure for Mirage-2000 , its A2G capability is advanced (importance of which we felt in kargil), its AESA radar is almost ready. There is also talk of new feature to reduce radar crossection. Rafale is also closer to 5th gen. fighter.

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## trident2010

Its flashing on Times of India website now


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## SQ8

Folks.. any Actual link?.. a statement.. a press conference.. heck a link to an aviation site like flight global.
Dont want any of the previous rumors ala "EF front runner reports" etc etc.


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## Nakki Nair

WOHOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!
My love finally won the competition


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## Jon Snow

seethru said:


> Can anyone explain the criteria for the bid selection.
> Is it just the cost? It appears so.


 
Between the shortlisted candidates the only criteria was cost - but to get to the shortlist the only criteria was performance.

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## fatman17

congrats to the IAF and its supporters

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## T90TankGuy

seethru said:


> Can anyone explain the criteria for the bid selection.
> Is it just the cost? It appears so.



i guess other than being the lowest bidder . its also a matter of influence which we can have with France over this deal . with the EF we would have a limited one with 6 countries involved.


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## zer_0

have a look!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dassault Rafale emerges lowest bidder for Indian Air Force jet fighter deal: Sources

the news is also flashing in NDTV NEWS


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## Major Shaitan Singh

Guys... lets enjoy and distribute sweets.... Its like India has won the World Cup...... Very Soon these birds will fly in our Sky's....

FGFA T 50
SU 30MKI MII
Rafale
LCA
MiG 29K
Jaguar
Mirage.

Woow.....

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## Nakki Nair

Abingdonboy said:


> After how many blows to the Rafale, how many times it has been ruled out or supposedly pulled out and it goes on to win?!!
> 
> India loves an underdog!



An underdog that at times of distress, kicks the enemy's A$$

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## trident2010

*Dassault Rafale wins the MMRCA deal beating Eurofighter Typhoon*


NEW DELHI: France's Dassault Rafale wins the $10.4 billion medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) deal. Its bid was said to be 'significantly' lower than the other fighter -- the Eurofighter Typhoon -- designed by a consortium of three companies EADS, Alenia Aeronautica and BAE Systems. 

The MMRCA is India's biggest single defence deal which will see India purchasing 126 fighters planes for the Indian Air Force.


Dassault Rafale wins the MMRCA deal beating Eurofighter Typhoon - The Times of India


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## sudhir007

There are currently *140 users* browsing this thread. (58 members and 82 guests)


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## rama

time to change my avatar....

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## SQ8

This is the sort of link that is needed in this thread.

India Declares Rafale 'Lowest Bidder' In Fighter Contest

by Robert Wall

Aviation Week's reporting team in India has now confirmed that the Indian government has named Dassault Aviation's Rafale the lowest bidder in the country's Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft Competition (MMRCA).

The deal, if it leads to an actual contract signature, would be a huge win for Rafale and a big loss for the Eurofighter Typhoon team. It would be Dassault's first Rafale export deal. Contract signature is likely still months away as industrial details are negotiated.

Another big winner, if the deal is cemented, would be French president Nicolas Sarkozy, who has made securing a Rafale order a big governmental push. Sarkozy faces reelection in April/May and is trailing in the polls.

The Indian MMRCA program is the largest international fighter competition on the market. It is to lead to license production of at least 126 fighters, with options for many more.

The Boeing F/A-18E/F, Lockheed Martin F-16, Saab Gripen and MiG-35 were earlier knocked out of the competition.

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## ARCHON

18 gonna arrive soon.. maybe very soon as interim..


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## T90TankGuy

Oscar said:


> Folks.. any Actual link?.. a statement.. a press conference.. heck a link to an aviation site like flight global.
> Dont want any of the previous rumors ala "EF front runner reports" etc etc.



oscar its being discussed on all English and Hindi channels over here. it will be up on their websites soon .

here is one of NDTV
Dassault Rafale wins for USD 10.4 billion Indian Air Force jet fighter deal: Sources


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## Shardul.....the lion

Dassault Rafale wins USD 10.4 billion Indian Air Force jet fighter deal: Sources 
NDTV - &#8206;13 minutes ago&#8206;New Delhi: Sources have told NDTV that the French aviation company Dassault Rafale has won the $10.4 billion deal for supplying fighter aircraft to India. The Indian Air Force plans to buy 126 aircraft over the next ten years. The process to determine ... 

Rafale wins $ 10.4 bn IAF deal to supply 126 jets 
IBNLive.com - &#8206;8 minutes ago&#8206;New Delhi: French company Dassault Aviation's Rafale has won the $10.4 billion deal to supply 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) to the Indian Air Force. According to sources, Rafale won the multi-billion dollar deal as it was found to be ... 


Dasault wins $10.4 bn IAF jet fighter deal 
Business Today - &#8206;3 minutes ago&#8206;French aviation firm Dassault Rafale has won the $10.4 billion deal for supplying 126 multi-role fighter aircraft to the India Air Force (IAF), a government source said Tuesday. Dassault is said to have placed the lowest bid to supply India with the ... No India jet fighter deal before end March-minister 

Reuters - &#8206;2 hours ago&#8206;One of the sources said France's Rafale jet was the likely winner, adding that the defence ministry was now considering buying another 80 or so jets and could invite bidders excluded from the current process to take part. Already Asia's third-largest ... Rafale bags IAF`s USD 10 bn MMRCA deal 
*Zee News - &#8206;22 minutes ago&#8206;*... French contender Rafale fighter aircraft has reportedly bagged the prestigious contract. This has finally ended suspense over the speculated winner of the USD 10.4 billion deal to equip Indian Air Force with 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft. 
Dassault Rafale emerges lowest bidder for Indian Air Force jet fighter deal ... 
NDTV - &#8206;4 minutes ago&#8206;New Delhi: The Dassault Rafale fighter jet, manufactured by French Dassault Aviation, has emerged as the lowest bidder in India's mammoth contract worth $10.4 billion, say sources. The Indian Air Force plans to buy 126 aircraft over the next ten years. No fighter jet deal before end March: AK Antony 
Economic Times - &#8206;5 hours ago&#8206;Still in the fray are Eurofighter, which makes the Typhoon fighter jet, and a four-nation consortium of EADS, representing Germany and Spain, Britain's BAE Systems and Italy's Finmeccanica. Their competitor is France's Dassault, which makes the Rafale ... Lowest bidder for India fighter jets: sources 
Indian Express - &#8206;14 minutes ago&#8206;The tender was being fought between Dassault's Rafale jet and Eurofighter's Typhoon. Further commercial negotiations will take place before a deal is signed, sources said. Sources said the government is seriously considering giving the contract to ... 
No fighter jet deal before end March - AK Antony 
Moneycontrol.com - &#8206;5 hours ago&#8206;NEW DELHI (Reuters) - India will not sign a multi-billion dollar deal to buy fighter jets before this fiscal year ending in March, defence minister AK Antony told reporters on Tuesday. However, New Delhi will "soon" announce the lowest bidder for the ... No fighter jet deal before end March-India defence min 
Reuters - &#8206;5 hours ago&#8206;... representing Germany and Spain, Britain's BAE Systems and Italy's Finmeccanica. Their competitor is France's Dassault, which makes the Rafale plane. (Reporting by Manoj Kumar and Nigam Prusty; writing by Matthias Williams; editing by Malini Menon) No fighter jet deal before end March: Antony 
Hindustan Times - &#8206;5 hours ago&#8206;The government will not sign a multi-billion dollar deal to buy fighter jets before this fiscal year ending in March, defence minister AK Antony told reporters on Tuesday. Two European contenders are left in the race to sell India more than a 100 ... Rafale Beats Eurofighter In Indian MMRCA Contest 
Defenseworld.net - &#8206;14 minutes ago&#8206;French combat plane manufacturer Dassault's Rafale fighter has won the Indian MMRCA competiton beating the European consortum's Eurofighter aircraft in a contest that went on for four years. Rafale executives were called by Indian MOD officials this ... France's Dassault lowest bidder for India jet buy-sources 
Reuters - &#8206;12 minutes ago&#8206;The tender is being fought between Dassault's Rafale jet and Eurofighter's Typhoon. Further commercial negotiations will take place before a deal is signed, the sources said. (Reporting by Manoj Kumar and Nigam Prusty; writing by Frank Jack Daniel; ...

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## rama

for all the *pinks* visiting this thread...congrats

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## z9-ec

KRAIT said:


> Agree with you. But there are many misconception about Rafale and many underrate it just coz of few reason. Its perfect for india as we already have infrastructure for Mirage-2000 , its A2G capability is advanced (importance of which we felt in kargil), its AESA radar is almost ready. There is also talk of new feature to reduce radar crossection. Rafale is also closer to 5th gen. fighter.



I agree with you to some extent. Decision may have been in line with cost, reliability and no strings attached policy of Dassault and France plus as you pointed out possibility of further upgrades to it. Not to mention India's past relationship with Dassault.

Nonetheless, I think all Pakistani's were expecting Euro fighter to win. Would be interesting to see how PAF would respond to such news.


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## Windjammer

fast and furious said:


> Not many in our neighbourhood.



But your forget, we tested both out..... EFT winner by a long way.



jbgt90 said:


> stop having sour grapes mate. chill.



What's there out out of ordinary dude..... good luck to you guys.


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## SQ8

So what is the final bid??
Im sure that Dassault has taken a certain loss somewhere to get the big tamale..
But it is the best deal for ToT as the french are more involved in multiple contracts for India.
Not sure if it was the best deal diplomatically.. but nevertheless MBDA is a european company which will provide some sort of consolation prize for the losing states.

the biggest winner though.. is the rafale.. its like the graduate that has been sitting jobless for too long.. and suddenly has been posted to VP.

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## T90TankGuy

z9-ec said:


> I agree with you to some extent. Decision may have been in line with cost, reliability and no strings attached policy of Dassault and France plus as you pointed out possibility of further upgrades to it. Not to mention India's past relationship with Dassault.
> 
> Nonetheless, I think all Pakistani's that were expecting Euro fighter to win.



a lot of us including me were expecting EF to win too.


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## regular

OH! this means Indian Airforce is screwed up by the kickbacks and bribery....The Frenchies are well known for their secret underhand dealingz....
The Rafael is nothing in front of EuroFighter.........India got screwedup BIGGGGG...TIMEEEE........

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## prabhakar

Hold your horses... induction will start only from fourth quater of 2015


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## indushek

OMG a decision atlast after the excruciating waiting. I am so happy guys 

I think i will have a party today.


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## T90TankGuy

Oscar said:


> So what is the final bid??
> Im sure that Dassault has taken a certain loss somewhere to get the big tamale..
> But it is the best deal for ToT as the french are more involved in multiple contracts for India.
> Not sure if it was the best deal diplomatically.. but nevertheless MBDA is a european company which will provide some sort of consolation prize for the losing states.
> 
> the biggest winner though.. is the rafale.. its like the graduate that has been sitting jobless for too long.. and suddenly has been posted to VP.



yeah from having no suitors to having 126 .


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## fast and furious

Windjammer said:


> *But your forget, we tested both out..... EFT winner by a long way.*
> What's there out out of ordinary dude..... good luck to you guys.




Sir you can test F-22 for all we care.It is the Plane in the inventory that matters.

But you already knew that.


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## Rupeshkumar

Windjammer said:


> But your forget, we tested both out..... EFT winner by a long way.
> 
> 
> tested? when sir??


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## jackyy

regular said:


> OH! this means Indian Airforce is screwed up by the kickbacks and bribery....The Frenchies are well known for their secret underhand dealingz....
> The Rafael is nothing in front of EuroFighter.........India got screwedup BIGGGGG...TIMEEEE........



if bribes are the case then hornets would have won the contracts.its best and our air force too.

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## ARCHON

regular said:


> OH! this means Indian Airforce is screwed up by the kickbacks and bribery....The Frenchies are well known for their secret underhand dealingz....
> The Rafael is nothing in front of EuroFighter.........India got screwedup BIGGGGG...TIMEEEE........



very much on expected lines from yaa..

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## z9-ec

regular said:


> OH! this means Indian Airforce is screwed up by the kickbacks and bribery....The Frenchies are well known for their secret underhand dealingz....
> The Rafael is nothing in front of EuroFighter.........India got screwedup BIGGGGG...TIMEEEE........



Dude, some advice for you.

Never underestimate your opponent. The day you do. You're gone.

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## DANGER-ZONE

soccerhero said:


> *Dassault Rafale wins USD 10.4 billion Indian Air Force jet fighter deal: Sources*
> 
> New Delhi: Sources have told NDTV that the French aviation company Dassault Rafale has won the $10.4 billion deal for supplying fighter aircraft to India. *The Indian Airforce plans to buy 126 aircraft over the next ten years*.
> 
> The first 18 aircraft will be bought off the shelf. The rest 118 will be manufactured in partnership with an Indian company.
> 
> There were six contenders for the worlds biggest defence deal which included MIG- 35, F-16 Falcon, F-18 Hornet, Gripen Euro-Fighter, Typhoon and Rafale. Of these, the Typhoon and Rafale were shortlisted. The rest were rejected as they didn't meet the technical qualifications.
> 
> Source



Well.... Well.... Well. What it was thought and raised from 11 to 15 bn Dollars deal turn out to be 10.4 bn dollars in end. 
And one thing more that was thought that India might complete 126 Birds by 2016-18 but it will actually take minimum 10 years of time.

Well congrats India ... and Dassault, for getting a customer finally.


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## jha

Rupeshkumar said:


> Windjammer said:
> 
> 
> 
> But your forget, we tested both out..... EFT winner by a long way.
> 
> 
> tested? when sir??
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rafale would have been a winner had we chosen EFT...Leave them...
Click to expand...

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## shuntmaster

wow.. the rifle 
Congrats to all Indians. Great day.


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## jackyy

80 birds may be added later on and it could go to different vendor and i believe this will be for navy
and jet will be f-35


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## KRAIT

z9-ec said:


> I agree with you to some extent. Decision may have been in line with cost, reliability and no strings attached policy of Dassault and France plus as you pointed out possibility of further upgrades to it. Not to mention India's past relationship with Dassault.
> 
> Nonetheless, I think all Pakistani's were expecting Euro fighter to win. Would be interesting to see how PAF would respond to such news.


Yeah, coming days are going to be interesting one. Hope we all have constructive discussion.
@topic-
I am just wondering with full ToT and french already helping in kaveri engine development, how much this deal with french boost our domestic aviation industry.


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## Kesang

regular said:


> OH! this means Indian Airforce is screwed up by the kickbacks and bribery....The Frenchies are well known for their secret underhand dealingz....
> The Rafael is nothing in front of EuroFighter.........India got screwedup BIGGGGG...TIMEEEE........



than congrats you.


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## T90TankGuy

regular said:


> OH! this means Indian Airforce is screwed up by the kickbacks and bribery....The Frenchies are well known for their secret underhand dealingz....
> The Rafael is nothing in front of EuroFighter.........India got screwedup BIGGGGG...TIMEEEE........



ahhh yes the oracle has spoken .

thank god this has been one deal which went completely by the book .


----------



## blackops

There are 172 members 66 members and 106 guests


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## fast and furious

jha said:


> Rupeshkumar said:
> 
> 
> 
> Rafale would have been a winner had we chosen EFT...Leave them...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Multiple thanks.
Click to expand...

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## jackyy

first sale of rafale


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## KRAIT

jackyy said:


> 80 birds may be added later on and it could go to different vendor and i believe this will be for navy
> and jet will be f-35


I was bit surprised by this. But IF we select F-35, then we wont get it before 2018 , while IF we select Eurofighter then we can have parallel deliveries of most advanced 4.5 gen. fighters. I know my scenario is somewhat dreamy, but i wish it happens this way.


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## zer_0

regular said:


> OH! this means Indian Airforce is screwed up by the kickbacks and bribery....The Frenchies are well known for their secret underhand dealingz....
> The Rafael is nothing in front of EuroFighter.........India got screwedup BIGGGGG...TIMEEEE........



*angur nahi mila toh angur katta*

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## fatman17

the EFT supply chain could be inferior to that of the Rafale - RAF had issues with its EFT's during the libyan air-blockade. so the IAF planners seem to have done their homework. Rafale has one supplier Dassault whilst EFT is made by a consortium of countries and the SC could be a complex issue.

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## seethru

regular said:


> OH! this means Indian Airforce is screwed up by the kickbacks and bribery....The Frenchies are well known for their secret underhand dealingz....
> The Rafael is nothing in front of EuroFighter.........India got screwedup BIGGGGG...TIMEEEE........



It's totally possible. But, i doubt that's case here.


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## StormShadow

Now...where was that kid who was moaning yesterday that India didnot have funds to buy as everything was eaten away by corrupt _babus_

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## prabhakar

anyone knows about the pricing ??


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## jackyy

> However, government sources told Reuters about the $15 billion deal that France's Rafale jet was the likely winner, adding that the defence ministry was now considering buying another 80 or so jets and could invite bidders excluded from the current process to take part.



f-35 for navy


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## shuntmaster

Its very logical and sensible. The MMRCA was originally envisaged as additional Mirage-2000 to the fleet. Especially after their stellar performance of the kargil war. However, by then the Mirage's were being phased out and their production stopped. Rafale is the successor to Mirage-2000 and it perfectly fits the IAF requirement.

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## sudhir007

thread stuck na hu jaye more then
There are currently *203 users* browsing this thread. (62 members and 141 guests)


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## AbhimanyuShrivastav

shuntmaster said:


> Its very logical and sensible. The MMRCA was originally envisaged as additional Mirage-2000 to the fleet. Especially after their stellar performance of the kargil war. However, by then the Mirage's were being phased out and their production stopped. Rafale is the successor to Mirage-2000 and it perfectly fits the IAF requirement.



And dont forget the existing Mirage supporting infrastructure that can be upgraded to support Rafales..


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## fast and furious

AbhimanyuShrivastav said:


> And dont forget the existing Mirage supporting infrastructure that can be upgraded to support Rafales..



+
Better A2G capablities that IAF was looking for in the first place.


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## zer_0

fatman17 said:


> the EFT supply chain could be inferior to that of the Rafale - RAF had issues with its EFT's during the libyan air-blockade. so the IAF planners seem to have done their homework. Rafale has one supplier Dassault whilst EFT is made by a consortium of countries and the SC could be a complex issue.



didn t thought about that


----------



## Windjammer

jha said:


> Rupeshkumar said:
> 
> 
> 
> Rafale would have been a winner had we chosen EFT...Leave them...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unless you are incompetent to know the capabilities of the two. !!!
Click to expand...


----------



## Abingdonboy

regular said:


> OH! this means Indian Airforce is screwed up by the kickbacks and bribery....The Frenchies are well known for their secret underhand dealingz....
> The Rafael is nothing in front of EuroFighter.........India got screwedup BIGGGGG...TIMEEEE........


 


Windjammer said:


> But your forget, we tested both out..... EFT winner by a long way.
> 
> 
> 
> What's there out out of ordinary dude..... good luck to you guys.



Well you guys were always going to say which ever one India got the other was better! For the IAF this ticked all th eboxes and best suited their needs. The IAF already has the MKI and will soon be getting the FGFA as air superiority fighters so MMRCA didn't need to be EFT which would tread on toes of MKI and FGFA but had relatively less A2G capability and unproven/undeveloped tech.


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## Shardul.....the lion

GUYS even xinhua is reporting the news....

France's Dasault Rafale wins multi-billion dollar Indian fighter contract - Xinhua | English.news.cn


France's Dasault Rafale wins multi-billion dollar Indian fighter contract







English.news.cn 2012-01-31 19:51:02













































































































































































NEW DELHI, Jan. 31 (Xinhua) -- France's Dasault Rafale group has won a 10.4 billion U.S. dollar contract to build 126 MMRCA fighter for the Indian air force in 10 years, said local TV channel Times Now Tuesday.

The contract will be signed between the Indian Defense Ministry and Dasault Rafale in about six months' time, said the report quoting official sources.

India has chosen Dasault Rafale because it emerged as the lowest bidder among all Western fighter makers, much lower than the Euro-fighter price offer, said the report.

This will be India's biggest fighter deal, called "Mother of all arms deals" by local media.


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## Roybot

*Son of a mother! finally*. 

209 users browsing this thread

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## KRAIT

Oscar said:


> So what is the final bid??
> Im sure that Dassault has taken a certain loss somewhere to get the big tamale..
> But it is the best deal for ToT as the french are more involved in multiple contracts for India.
> Not sure if it was the best deal diplomatically.. but nevertheless MBDA is a european company which will provide some sort of consolation prize for the losing states.
> 
> the biggest winner though.. is the rafale.. its like the graduate that has been sitting jobless for too long.. and suddenly has been posted to VP.


You are right, diplomatically this decision is not right. With submarine deal, engine development, mmrca, we have put all the eggs in one basket. 
But, one cannot make some relaxations when country's defense is concerned. French were desperate to sell this aircraft. Both the contenders offered everything with no string attached, but EF have other customer, rafale dont, which make indians to ask more from french. Also as elections are approaching Sarkozy would have done anything for this deal.

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## prabhakar

Windjammer said:


> jha said:
> 
> 
> 
> Unless you are incompetent to know the capabilities of the two. !!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> when did PAF had evaluated EFT and Raffy EXTENSIVELY ?
Click to expand...


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## praveen007

++

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## z9-ec

fatman17 said:


> the EFT supply chain could be inferior to that of the Rafale - RAF had issues with its EFT's during the libyan air-blockade. so the IAF planners seem to have done their homework. Rafale has one supplier Dassault whilst EFT is made by a consortium of countries and the SC could be a complex issue.



Another valid point. This hurdle may have tilted IAF to towards Rafale and eventually chose it. However, I still believe past relationship with Dassault and France may have had higher consideration.

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## shuntmaster

AbhimanyuShrivastav said:


> And dont forget the existing Mirage supporting infrastructure that can be upgraded to support Rafales..



yeah, and also it will be big help in the Kaveri Jet engine programme since there will be more incentive for snecma which is also a French company.
So, this decision is basically killing many birds with one stone (order)

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## Black Widow

regular said:


> OH! this means Indian Airforce is screwed up by the kickbacks and bribery....The Frenchies are well known for their secret underhand dealingz....
> The Rafael is nothing in front of EuroFighter.........India got screwedup BIGGGGG...TIMEEEE........




I would appreciate you if you would have done some research before posting such comment. Both EFT and Rafael were equally capable. They were chosen last two. Final frontier was cost, In term of cost EFT lost the game.


*Poor Euro, they didn't learn from their mistake. First they lost there engine to GE (GE won the contract to supply engine for LCA MKII by bidding lower price), now they lost there plane. * 

EFT is good Omni role platform with better Airsuperiority, while Rafael is good omnirole platform with better ground attack capability. Looking at the plane it will replace Rafael fit better than EFT. I always wanted Rafael to win it, I was heart broken when I heard the EFT lead earlier this month.

if the bidding difference is 2 bill USA then its a significant ammount. 

There are currently 254 users browsing this thread. (71 members and 183 guests)


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## z9-ec

prabhakar said:


> when did PAF had evaluated EFT and Raffy EXTENSIVELY ?



Rafale was evaluated extensively by PAF due to blockage by US over F-16s. PAF did not opt for it citing costs. EF was not.


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## anathema

Finally Finally - Its Rafale ..the French beauty.....is this official ?


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## graphican

Rafale is an unknown platform to every other air-force.. I don't have experties to compare a vs b but what I know from the available information is that its one "kick-@ss" platform. Also france will be doing complete transfer of technology and that means - kick-@ss++ 

Euro fighter might have a more recent airframe but on everything else.. its a pretty good match. IMHO.

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## Splurgenxs

> So what is the final bid??
> Im sure that Dassault has taken a certain loss somewhere to get the big tamale..
> But it is the best deal for ToT as the french are more involved in multiple contracts for India.
> Not sure if it was the best deal diplomatically.. but nevertheless MBDA is a european company which will provide some sort of consolation prize for the losing states.
> 
> the biggest winner though.. is the rafale.. its like the graduate that has been sitting jobless for too long.. and suddenly has been posted to VP.



im pretty sure Sarkozy sold of the TOT for all of there current technology base on Avionics and radars...Considering there economy and elections
im pretty sure itll help us a lot in our indigenous ventures..

Even maybe the Pak-fa.


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## Shardul.....the lion

There are currently 264 users browsing this thread. (72 members and 192 guests)


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## Jade

Windjammer said:


> Unless you are incompetent to know the capabilities of the two. !!!



It is not about which is better, but which suits better for IAF. Anyway, there would be another bid for 80 more jets. Who knows EFT could get it. After all India has to balance it relations

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## T90TankGuy

z9-ec said:


> Rafale was evaluated extensively by PAF due to blockage by US over F-16s. EF was not.



when was this done? and source?


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## TrMhMt

Congratulation guys !!!

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## KRAIT

Jade said:


> Windjammer said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is not about which is better, but which suits better for IAF. Anyway, there would be another bid for 80 more jets. Who knows EFT could get it. After all India has to balance it relations
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly...make everyone happy....
> Super Sukhoi, Akula II and PAKFA/FGFA etc - Russia
> Apache, C-130J, GlobemasterIII etc - US
> Rafale, Scorpene ,Mirage upgrades, Snecma deal etc - France
> Eurofighter - UK/Italy/Germany/Spain (possible)
> don't know what else....
Click to expand...

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## praveen007

old but a worthy news about Rafale selection.
.
*Indian Politician Says Sonia Gandhi Has Rigged M-MRCA Deal for Rafale
.
.
Livefist: Indian Politician Says Sonia Gandhi Has Rigged M-MRCA Deal for Rafale*
++





.
If the Indian M-MRCA fighter competition wasn't
quite surreal enough, in comes an Indian
politician-economist, notably re-energized by his
current association with India's "anti-corruption"
movement and India's monumental telecom
scam investigation, to stir the pot some more. A
known fire-bomber with an unabashed antipathy
to India's ruling Congress party, Subramanian
Swamy has now apparently trained his ire at the
IAF's $12-billion M-MRCA fighter deal.
Swamy, officially leader of the Janata Party, but
best known for years as a voluble and dogged
government baiter on all matters graft, says he
has written to Indian Prime Minister Dr
Manmohan Singh making some very dramatic
allegations. The letter (full text in image above)
was written on April 29, two days after the
dramatic M-MRCA elimination. Like all his letters,
this one says that it draws on "inside information"
from within the government. Let's get to the
contents:
Swamy writes: "My sources indicate that the pre-
determined decision to favour the French aircraft
[Dassault's Rafale] was the outcome of several
conversations between the wife of French
President Ms. Carla Bruni and the Chairperson of
the National Advisory Council Ms. Sonia Gandhi,
and surprisingly also with two foreign nationals
who are the sisters of Ms. Sonia Gandhi."
It is not clear what information Swamy has based
his allegations on.
At the very least, it should be said that
Subramanian Swamy was once quite aptly
described by a leading news weekly as "the
Professor Moriarty to Sonia's Sherlock Holmes",
so there shouldn't be any real surprise that the
target of his letter is specifically the Congress
Party president. That said, the allegations he
makes are indubitably explosive. Swamy's letter
refers to "credible information" in his possession,
but says nothing about what this credible
information is. It is not clear if he has shared any
further information with the Prime Minister apart
from this letter.
The operative part of his letter goes: "Based on
some credible information given to me on the
conversation between Ms. Carla Bruni and Ms
Sonia Gandhi&#8217;s sisters, there has been an
agreement of the French to pay a hefty bribe for
favouring the purchase of French aircrafts."
Interestingly, a popular Indian military
commentator has made a slightly backhanded
allusion to pretty much the same thing today. In
this column published in today's Pioneer, Maj Gen
(Retd) Ashok Mehta writes, "The IAF favours the
Rafale not the least because the French are
promising the moon. There is also a high level
back channel Italian connection, they say." So
either the columnist has read Subramanian
Swamy's letter, or has his own "insiders", in
which case, as you've no doubt guessed, we
have two prominent Indian figures saying that
the Rafale has already been chosen to win the M-
MRCA competition, and that it took a high-level
government connection -- Swamy names Sonia
Gandhi, the Maj Gen her nationality -- to work it
through.
It should be reiterated that neither of these
controversial assertions has been backed in
substance -- at least as far as I know -- in either
the letter or the column. We'll have to see where
this goes.


----------



## jha

Windjammer said:


> jha said:
> 
> 
> 
> Unless you are incompetent to know the capabilities of the two. !!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh yes...Now you will teach us the capabilities of aircrafts...
> 
> Will trust IAF decision any day over a frustrated lad....
Click to expand...

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## Jade

There are currently 296 users browsing this thread.


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## AbhimanyuShrivastav

There are currently 294 users browsing this thread. (70 members and 224 guests)


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## KRAIT

prabhakar said:


> But I heard that they found its technology too much ... no pun intended


They had good deal of J-10B, very capable fighter. So i think they saved lot of money and hassles.


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## graphican

Pakistanisage said:


> Congrats to our Indian friends. Now maybe Indians can make a worthy opponent in the Sky.
> 
> *Now all they need are the Pakistani fighter pilots to fly this baby to really take advantage of this technology.*



Where did that come from? Common mate give Indians a thumbs-up for now. We will confront Rafale when we will have to with the best of our abilities but for now don't spoil a party for the sake of it.

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## Roybot

jha said:


> Oh yes...Now you will teach us the capabilities of aircrafts...
> 
> Will trust IAF decision any day over a frustrated lad....



Sore loosers are going to have a sulk, just leave em alone. And no am not talking about EFT

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## SQ8

Rupeshkumar said:


> tested? when sir??



Both MMRCA finalists tested by PAF during mid-90's.. then Again during early 2000's..
Typhoon recently "checked out" after induction in service with RSAF(Could this be a reason for the rafale's selection as well??)


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## Soumya_india

congrates guys...

love to see rafale at indian colour...

Now ready to face JF17 vs Rafale thread very soon...


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## graphican

Guys - does Rafale has fixed fuelling probe?


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## IND151

[video]http://www.google.co.in/url?url=http://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DaG8qahjCf8Y&rct=j&sa=X&ei=luInT7_8OoXorQfD8f3hAQ&ved=0CDYQrREwAA&q=rafale+&usg=AFQjCNFpfKGDUouFncd4N4gHgYA_EclokQ[/video]


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## z9-ec

jbgt90 said:


> when was this done? and source?



I maybe wrong here. I'm not exactly sure. I think interests was shown but opted out later citing cos Something did happen in the 90s when Rafale sought customers.


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## Punjabi Jattan Da Puttar

Yeah !!!!

Long live French & India relationship !


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## mastaan

Rafale it is fellows!!! Sancho must be going bonkers!


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## seethru

z9-ec said:


> Rafale was evaluated extensively by PAF due to blockage by US over F-16s. PAF did not opt for it citing costs. EF was not.



Does that mean EF was evaluated by PAF?


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## GURU DUTT

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 300 users browsing this thread. (66 members and 234 guests)


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## AbhimanyuShrivastav

Double post


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## Ambitious.Asian

i never watched such huge members online on single thread since my entry


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## AbhimanyuShrivastav

Soumya_india said:


> congrates guys...
> 
> love to see rafale at indian colour...
> 
> *Now ready to face JF17 vs Rafale thread very soon*...



Yeah?? And also G3 rifle vs Taor TAR 21 thread too  ??


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## KRAIT

graphican said:


> Guys - does Rafale has fixed fuelling probe?


Yup, I wish it had retractable one. Its an eye soar ( disturbs symmetry). Without it , the aircraft would be more stunning.


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## AbhimanyuShrivastav

There are currently 310 users browsing this thread. (64 members and 246 guests)


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## trident2010

KRAIT said:


> Yup, I wish it had retractable one. Its an eye soar ( disturbs symmetry). Without it , the aircraft would be more stunning.



Yup. I also find it not very aesthetically pleasing. However consider it as a "kala tika" to prevent it from "buri nazar" ..lolz

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## Jade



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## Punjabi Jattan Da Puttar

When do we gonna use these lil babies ? 

And against what country     ?


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## KRAIT

Ambitious.Asian said:


> i never watched such huge members online on single thread since my entry


Its the biggest single deal of aviation history yet and it has one country whose air force is going to have new teeths and our neighbors have been keenly watching its development along with us.


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## raavan

There are currently 297 users browsing this thread. (64 members and 233 guests)
raavan Jon Snow Haanzo JAT BALWAN StormShadow KRAIT Rupeshkumar Punjabi Jattan Da Puttar z9-ec Amolthebest Vasily Zaytsev uday Ambitious.Asian Thundersword Agnostic_Indian satishkumarcsc AbhimanyuShrivastav Abingdonboy Jade kinsr trident2010 nick_indian Burninspice indiafriendly graphican Soumya_india aakash_2410 roshangjha tatasteel nemesis102 ravinderpalrulez Tridibans IND151 ADAMANSKA Ghostwhowalks Jason bourne ALOK31 sathya soccerhero seethru void_0in Rocky25 vishal111 mautkimaut Hu Jintao Contract Killer sputnik kaykay Harry Potter mitjot praveen007 Don Jaguar Broccoli salman108 Black Widow Indian Army Just Yash jbgt90 Shardul.....the lion shuntmaster punit


just saying


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## AbhimanyuShrivastav

Punjabi Jattan Da Puttar said:


> When do we gonna use these lil babies ?
> 
> And against what country     ?



Hopefully never and against no one.. When one buys insurance, the hope is that it should go waste

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## z9-ec

Regardless, this will be a big boost for Rafale and huge turn around in fortune for Dassault. It was really struggling over the years this may lead to potential new contracts with UAE or possibly others. Not only for them but for France as well.


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## jha

Punjabi Jattan Da Puttar said:


> When do we gonna use these lil babies ?
> 
> And against what country     ?



No one... We wont use against these again anyone. Basically thats the reason we are spending so much.

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## Ambitious.Asian

i Have always wanted rafale....now thankx GOD


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## Thundersword

wait a second....... If i'm not mistaken rafale has JUST been confirmed as L1......... but I think there is a clause stating that the GoI can choose the other bidder incase we are receiving better ToT or better political gain.......


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## KRAIT

graphican said:


> Where did that come from? Common mate give Indians a thumbs-up for now. We will confront Rafale when we will have to with the best of our abilities but for now don't spoil a party for the sake of it.


Yeah you are right. After the party we will be seeing development on your side. But i think if J-10B gets AESA , then you will already have an answer, not to point out JF-17 block III


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## thinkingcap81

*Sancho,

Did you thank me ???*

Countless times you have argued for your French beauty...

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## Don Jaguar

There are currently 301 users browsing this thread.

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## KRAIT

Thundersword said:


> wait a second....... If i'm not mistaken rafale has JUST been confirmed as L1......... but I think there is a clause stating that the GoI can choose the other bidder incase we are receiving better ToT or better political gain.......


With no international buyer, france will give anything you ask, so its almost certain, but you never know.
It may be possible for 126 we opt EF, and for separate 80 we opt for rafale.

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## raavan

*their stock is up 22%*

Dassault Aviation SA: EPA:AM quotes & news - Google Finance


----------



## Ambitious.Asian

Don Jaguar said:


> There are currently 301 users browsing this thread.



*today is Rafale's day*


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## graphican

I dedicate this to all the Indians out here.. ENJOY! 

Dassault Rafale Jet Fighter HD Video - YouTube

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## rockstarIN

Not my personal favorite, still I love this bird.


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## Punjabi Jattan Da Puttar

Long live France
Long live India !


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## Rupeshkumar

awesome video. just amazing...


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## rockstarIN

Sacho & Spark.........Congrats...


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## TrMhMt

Don Jaguar said:


> There are currently 301 users browsing this thread.



Get a new SS again coz my name is not there !!!!

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## Jason bourne

rafale ke pass wese bhi koi kam nai he to lagata he plane jaldi deliverd kar denge

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## zer_0

Don Jaguar said:


> There are currently 301 users browsing this thread.



huh!!!!

thats not fair...........

where is my name


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## KRAIT

Anyone can update when will the first delivery is expected of rafale after finalization of deal, coz for if EF was selected we would have got it in 2015.


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## sathya

damn, b4 i could finish reading a page, next one gets over...

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## StormShadow

Jason bourne said:


> rafale ke pass wese bhi koi kam nai he to lagata he plane jaldi deliverd kar denge


Lollz...maybe the reason why IAF chose rafale keeping the dwindling squadron numbers in mind.

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## Ambitious.Asian




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## rockstarIN

KRAIT said:


> Anyone can update when will the first delivery is expected of rafale after finalization of deal, coz for if EF was selected we would have got it in 2015.



by 2014, 16 Rafales to be landed in India.


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## sathya

what Rafale version India is going to get?

same engine or with increased thrust or kaveri engine ?


----------



## Vasily Zaytsev

*Yeeihhhhhhhhhh............Baby.......


Go Katrina Go !!!!!!!

So after Busty Rambha................its slim trim Katrina.........

IAf has some eye for figure and beauty....

Katrinnnnnaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

*

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## farhan_9909

COngrats my indian brother

A best choice of choosing a dead machin and a true multi role fighter

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## graphican

trident2010 said:


> Yup. I also find it not very aesthetically pleasing. However consider it as a "kala tika" to prevent it from "buri nazar" ..lolz


 
Well non-retractable proble doesn't suit every plane but I don't think this looks bad on Rafale.. on Rafale this external proble looks like a scar on the face of some bad-@SS making it looking even more of it. Something like this image. 






over-look the line underneath though :p


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## JAT BALWAN

*Congratulations to both Dassault & IAF*.....

Chalo ab ek topic se to chhutti milegi,jis par roz koi na koi ban hota tha... "India will buy planes or not"...

Now the same will go on "is rafale potent or not"....

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## Amolthebest

What costs EF? Deal with SAUDI and SAUDDI air force's proximity with PAF?


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## ganimi kawa

Just can't believe that this show is finally over.... For all of my career as a poster the MRCA thread has been a permanent feature of every defence board.... Can't imagine my life without it!!  



Just need some official statement from any MoD guy to achieve a final closure!!!!


And yes.....GO RAFALE!!!!


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## Don Jaguar

TrMhMt said:


> Get a new SS again coz my name is not there !!!!





zer_0 said:


> huh!!!!
> 
> thats not fair...........
> 
> where is my name



Both of you are late!!!


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## Rajaraja Chola

Whewwww !!!
Its my favourite along the way !!!
RAFALE !!


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## SamantK

This is a gr8 news for India!! This deal has been the single most proffesional and well managed deal i think in Indian history.. Its time every deal is focussed only on the user rather than the kickback!!


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## StormShadow

Why am I not seeing any of my chinese brothers here? It's 13th page!!


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## Contract Killer

Today French must be making mockery of member countries of EFT. 

Little sad for EF but Happy Happy for our Country as both were the best and well suited to our requirement.


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## z9-ec

Amolthebest said:


> What costs EF? Deal with SAUDI and SAUDDI air force's proximity with PAF?


 
Both EF and Rafale are in the running for a contract with UAE. PAF has a long history with UAE and Saudi.


----------



## Jason bourne

rockstar said:


> by 2014, 16 Rafales to be landed in India.



16 not 18 ????


----------



## graphican

farhan_9909 said:


> COngrats my indian brother
> 
> A best choice of choosing a *dead machin* and a true multi role fighter



I hope you meant DEADLY!

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## StormShadow

WTH...website is lagging.


----------



## zer_0

Don Jaguar said:


> Both of you are late!!!



Damn!!!!!!

when i watched this news i ran to my room logged in to PDF just to post this news....but three pages were already discussed..


----------



## nemesis102

Dassault aviation share price.. BOOOOOOOOOMM...............

Dassault Aviation - Stock price


----------



## Maritimer

Finally, after all the waiting. Congrats to Rafale! It will be interesting to see the details of this deal - the offsets, tot, weapons, delivery time for the first batch, AESA.


----------



## void_0in

Hun to khush ho hindustani prao hun to khush ho..ek gal daso yea 1 lit me kitna deta hai?

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## Ambitious.Asian

StormShadow said:


> Why am I not seeing any of my chinese brothers here? It's 13th page!!



THEY R ON WAY

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## Jade

nemesis102 said:


> Dassault aviation share price.. BOOOOOOOOOMM...............
> 
> Dassault Aviation - Stock price



Price increase of 140 euro/share in one hour. People must have made fortunes


----------



## z9-ec

nemesis102 said:


> Dassault aviation share price.. BOOOOOOOOOMM...............
> 
> Dassault Aviation - Stock price



Yup, like I said huge boost for Dassault. Just like winning a 10.5 billion USD lottery.


----------



## newdelhinsa

The thread is melting down, Thanks Pakistan Defence for providing platform for quickest Information.


----------



## jbond197

Finally...........


----------



## zer_0

Ambitious.Asian said:


> THEY R ON WAY



they r just collecting some 1000yr old links to bash india that.................

700million population lives under 1.25 $ and iaf spending 10.4 billion$ for defence...................

indian navy cheif said we r no match for china.........

china 40 years ahead on social development.....

and something like that....

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## Donatello

Is this true? Is this the final deal? Because there was a similar thread about IAF buying the Typhoon instead.


----------



## z9-ec

void_0in said:


> Hun to khush ho hindustani prao hun to khush ho..ek gal daso yea *1 lit me kitna deta hai?*



That made my day sardar jee.


----------



## zer_0

double post!!!!!!!!1


----------



## Jason bourne

13 page and no mithai here u go guys

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## SQ8

Here you go boys

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## baker

hmm finally decided

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## Ambitious.Asian

zer_0 said:


> they r just collecting some 1000yr old links to bash india that.................
> 
> 700million population lives under 1.25 $ and iaf spending 10.4 billion$ for defence...................
> 
> indian navy cheifssaid we r no match for china.........
> 
> china 40 years ahead on social development.....
> 
> and something like that....




but for now instant they were collecting weak points of Rafale..........very sad 

chung cha cha rafale chaa hamara baap cha


----------



## KRAIT

rockstar said:


> by 2014, 16 Rafales to be landed in India.


When will the first one will land... if you know?


----------



## sathya

why the heck they invite all the loosers to bid again for the 80 added units...

a. to keep french fries at same cost
b. to allow USA to bid F35 instead of F 16 block 70
c. to c whether EFT can be bought cheaper
d. to allow single engine GRIPEN to reenter hoping USA will lift restrictions on ISRAEL tech sale
e. to rub salt on wound again..


----------



## Vasily Zaytsev

News on Times Now......


Price difference more than rs. 10000 crore...

That means Rafale quoted price which in total cheaper by more than US $ 2 billion ...........

I think the French indeed learnt their lessons quickly................

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## graphican

@All Indians here, 

What are you guys doing at PDF.. is any Indian Defence Forum not celebrating yet?


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## Don Jaguar

Congratulations to Dassault Aviation!!! 

This is how 1 billion dollar look like, multiply it by 10.4 and enjoy!!!


----------



## KRAIT

z9-ec said:


> Yup, like I said huge boost for Dassault. Just like winning a 10.5 billion USD lottery.


I wanted to buy its shares...


----------



## Ambitious.Asian

Oscar said:


> Here you go boys




u missed TEJAS....


----------



## Jade

Donatello said:


> Is this true? Is this the final deal? Because there was a similar thread about IAF buying the Typhoon instead.



Yes, it is final; however, there is another deal for another 80 jets. F-35 and Typhoon should compete in that. Maybe Typhoon could win. After all India has to do a balance


----------



## Ambitious.Asian

Jason bourne said:


> 13 page and no mithai here u go guys



ARE YAAR JASON.....AB TO MUH MEIN PAANI GAYA


----------



## GURU DUTT

Jason bourne said:


> 13 page and no mithai here u go guys



yaar ye mithai to roj hee dekhte hain ....dikhaanee hee hai to koi bariya see French mithai dikhaoo??????


----------



## AbhimanyuShrivastav

graphican said:


> @All Indians here,
> 
> What are you guys doing at PDF.. is any Indian Defence Forum not celebrating yet?



We are enjoying the heartburn of *some *Pakistani friends  .. Like icing on the cake

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## 帅的一匹

Indian force want a plane could be put on their carrier, that is all. It is not only IAF's decision ,Navy's requirement also taken into consideration.

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## Jason bourne

dr sahab ko isme change karna padenga


----------



## Soumya_india

Bingo.....


----------



## z9-ec

KRAIT said:


> I wanted to buy its shares...



me too. lol.

Would have made millions today.


----------



## KRAIT

graphican said:


> @All Indians here,
> 
> What are you guys doing at PDF.. is any Indian Defence Forum not celebrating yet?


Its always good to share happiness with neighbours.


----------



## Jade

Don Jaguar said:


> Congratulations to Dassault Aviation!!!
> 
> This is how 1 billion dollar look like, multiply it by 10.4 and enjoy!!!



It is not any more a 10.4 B deal. The estimates are that it could be in near 20 B


----------



## AbhimanyuShrivastav

Jade said:


> It is not any more a 10.4 B deal. The estimates are that it could be in near 20 B



the 20 billion mark includes the additional 85


----------



## z9-ec

False Alarm folks...

*India Rafale deal not yet signed - French source*

Jan 31 (Reuters) - A French source close to the matter said on Tuesday that India had not yet signed a contract to buy Dassault Aviation Rafale fighter jets, though a step forward had been taken.

Dassault has placed the lowest bid to supply India with 126 fighters in a multi-billion dollar deal, two Indian government sources said earlier on Tuesday, adding that further commercial negotiations would first have to take place.

"No contract has been signed," the French source said.

A source close to the French finance ministry dampened reports that Dassault had already won the contest, which is pitting the Rafale against the Eurofighter Typhoon


http://www.reuters.com/article/2012...eedType=RSS&feedName=industrialsSector&rpc=43


----------



## JAT BALWAN

Don Jaguar said:


> Congratulations to Dassault Aviation!!!
> 
> This is how 1 billion dollar look like, multiply it by 10.4 and enjoy!!!




What are you doing DON bhai........

sabko corrupt karne ke alawa koi kaam nahi hai kya???

I am lovin it...

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## zer_0

Jason bourne said:


> 13 page and no mithai here u go guys



after mithai

lets celebrate...................






huh................... with soda or water!!!!


----------



## GURU DUTT

LOOK at THISSSSSSSSSSS

There are currently 258 users browsing this thread. (74 members and 184 guests)


----------



## Jason bourne

GURU DUTT said:


> yaar ye mithai to roj hee dekhte hain ....dikhaanee hee hai to koi bariya see French mithai dikhaoo??????








ye lo bhai aabhi chinesse or pakistani sweets bhi aarahi he

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## AbhimanyuShrivastav

z9-ec said:


> False Alarm folks...
> 
> *India Rafale deal not yet signed - French source*
> 
> Jan 31 (Reuters) - A French source close to the matter said on Tuesday that India had not yet signed a contract to buy Dassault Aviation Rafale fighter jets, though a step forward had been taken.
> 
> Dassault has placed the lowest bid to supply India with 126 fighters in a multi-billion dollar deal, two Indian government sources said earlier on Tuesday, adding that further commercial negotiations would first have to take place.
> 
> "No contract has been signed," the French source said.
> 
> A source close to the French finance ministry dampened reports that Dassault had already won the contest, which is pitting the Rafale against the Eurofighter Typhoon



True.. but an LOI has been issued to Dassault


----------



## Jade

wanglaokan said:


> Indian force want a plane could be put on their carrier, that is all. It is not only IAF's decision ,Navy's requirement also taken into consideration.



There is another deal for 80 new jets for Navy. So navy has to perhaps wait.


----------



## Don Jaguar

Jade said:


> It is not any more a 10.4 B deal. The estimates are that it could be in near 20 B



Even more good for them!!!


----------



## 帅的一匹

AbhimanyuShrivastav said:


> We are enjoying the heartburn of *some *Pakistani friends  .. Like icing on the cake


The successful bidding of Indian MMRCA will speed J-10's export to Pakistan.Guess which is better, mighty dragon or Rafle?


----------



## GURU DUTT

Jason bourne said:


> ye lo bhai aabhi chinesse or pakistani sweets bhi aarahi he


 Yaar tum bhee naa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Khair jaane do............


----------



## KRAIT

z9-ec said:


> me too. lol.
> 
> Would have made millions today.


Then you would have bought your own rafale. 
I am wondering what happened to EF consortium related firms' shares?


----------



## graphican

AbhimanyuShrivastav said:


> We are enjoying the heartburn of *some *Pakistani friends  .. Like icing on the cake




Aww you ******* Indians!  Well the fact is since the day EF and Rafale were shot listed, we knew it would be either *bomb* or *the bomb*! To me it is rather a soothing moment for many Pakistanis because India was denying many opportunities for Pakistan because of this deal. Its surely a challenging moment for Pakistanis but it had to appear nevertheless. I am only looking at the positive side that now we have a needful clearity that where India is heading towards. 

But I really mean to congratulate you guys.. if Pakistan had got this bird, I must have been as high as you guys are. So enjoy your moment and have a high time which you deserve.

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## born

> False Alarm folks...
> 
> India Rafale deal not yet signed - French source
> 
> Jan 31 (Reuters) - A French source close to the matter said on Tuesday that India had not yet signed a contract to buy Dassault Aviation Rafale fighter jets, though a step forward had been taken.
> 
> Dassault has placed the lowest bid to supply India with 126 fighters in a multi-billion dollar deal, two Indian government sources said earlier on Tuesday, adding that further commercial negotiations would first have to take place.
> 
> "No contract has been signed," the French source said.
> 
> A source close to the French finance ministry dampened reports that Dassault had already won the contest, which is pitting the Rafale against the Eurofighter Typhoon


I think the deal will only be signed at the begining of next financial year.Correct me if m wrong


----------



## KRAIT

wanglaokan said:


> The successful bidding of Indian MMRCA will speed J-10's export to Pakistan.Guess which is better, mighty dragon or Rafle?


I think Mighty Dragon will take time, FC-20, well yeah, pakistan will speed up procurements procedure.


----------



## StormShadow

wanglaokan said:


> The successful bidding of Indian MMRCA will speed J-10's export to Pakistan.Guess which is better, mighty dragon or Rafle?


Its Mighty Dragon. Remember...this is pdf and the jet is being sold to pak. And anybody who says Rafale is better is a low IQ fool.


----------



## zer_0

wanglaokan said:


> The successful bidding of Indian MMRCA will speed J-10's export to Pakistan.Guess which is better, mighty dragon or Rafle?


 
we indians expected u to thanks us nevermind 
but on your post...................

wat is mighty dragon .... A UFO 

stop comparing....... enjoy this thread

this thread race to 17 pages within 2 hours


----------



## Don Jaguar

GURU DUTT said:


> LOOK at THISSSSSSSSSSS
> 
> There are currently 258 users browsing this thread. (74 members and 184 guests)



Post # 163.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-...ir-force-jet-fighter-deal-16.html#post2546244

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## sathya

graphican said:


> @All Indians here,
> 
> What are you guys doing at PDF.. is any Indian Defence Forum not celebrating yet?


----------



## Ambitious.Asian

wanglaokan said:


> The successful bidding of Indian MMRCA will speed J-10's export to Pakistan.Guess which is better, mighty dragon or Rafle?



how many J-10s would pak buy and when they were delivered??????????????


----------



## Hello_10

nemesis102 said:


> (Reuters) - India will not sign a multi-billion dollar contract to buy European fighter jets before the fiscal year ends in March, the defense minister said on Tuesday, about a deal to revamp ageing weapons in line with the country's rising global influence.
> 
> "Not this financial year," Defence Minister A.K. Antony told Reuters in reply to a question about when the deal that has been in the works since 2007 would be signed.
> 
> However, India will "soon" announce the lowest bidder for the tender for 126 jets worth up to $15 billion, two government sources with knowledge of the deal told Reuters.
> 
> *One of the sources said France's Rafale jet was the likely winner*, adding that the defense ministry was* now considering buying another 80 or so jets and could invite bidders excluded from the current process to take part.*
> 
> Already Asia's third-largest economy and growing fast, India has emerged as the world's leading importer of weapons as it jostles with China for influence and reach on the world stage.
> 
> Dassault's (AVMD.PA) Rafale is competing with the Typhoon fighter made by four-nation consortium Eurofighter in what is currently one of the largest global weapons tenders.
> 
> "It is a long process. The file has not come to my table," Antony said, adding that the finance ministry and a cabinet panel headed by the prime minister have to look at the agreement after he signs off.
> 
> The Eurofighter Typhoon is built by the German and Spanish branches of EADS (EAD.PA), Britain's BAE Systems (BAES.L) and Italy's Finmeccanica (SIFI.MI). Dassault is French.
> 
> American, Russian and Swedish bids were rejected in April.
> 
> The U.S. company Lockheed Martin (LMT.N) has kept alive hopes of selling its F-35 Joint Strike Fighter to India.
> 
> One defense ministry source with knowledge of the negotiations said the life-time cost of the tender including training and maintenance may reach $15 billion.
> 
> Previous estimates put the cost around $11 billion.
> 
> The defense ministry source said each *Rafale was $4 million to $5 million cheaper* than its rival and the plane was preferred by the Air Force.
> 
> "Unit-wise, the French plane is much cheaper than the Eurofighter. Moreover, the Indian Airforce, which is well-equipped with French fighters, is favoring the French fighter," said the source, who asked not be named.
> 
> (Reporting by Manoj Kumar and Nigam Prusty; Writing by Frank Jack Daniel; Editing by Malini Menon and Ed Lane)
> 
> No India jet fighter deal before end March: minister | Reuters




I had told to Sancho. IAF will either buy Mig35 which may do its work economically and efficiently for just $55mil per piece, or, if they want to pay twice then its Rafale only, the best Multi Role aircraft of the 4++ generation. We now hope IAF may prefer to wait for 2-3 years for the first batch of Rafale but they would go for the best features of Rafale only which would incorporate a powerful AESA radar, stealth features etc like how SU30MKIs are being upgraded to Super Sukhoi 30, SU35 to SU35BM, J10 to J10B, and Eurofighter to Euro 2020 etc 

And now Its Mig35/ Mig29VOT for 80 more, as it already had infrastructure of Mig29s (68Mi29SMT+45Mi29k). Mig35, a primarily an air superiority aircraft with much improved A2G roles and very powerful AESA radar, while Mig29k being already supplied for INS Vikramaditya & IAC-1, Indian pilots already experienced on this aircrafts, which is available for just 55mil per piece with loaded with missiles also? Mig35 is set to win this additional $4.5bn deal to supply 80 MMRCA


----------



## void_0in

wanglaokan said:


> The successful bidding of Indian MMRCA will speed J-10's export to Pakistan.Guess which is better, mighty dragon or Rafle?



You bet humara bajaj is better

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## z9-ec

wanglaokan said:


> The successful bidding of Indian MMRCA will speed J-10's export to Pakistan.Guess which is better, mighty dragon or Rafle?



True, the next logical step for PAF is to pursue J-10B on priority basis and perhaps increase the amount of JF-17s to be procured. I think the only reason PAF delayed it's purchase was to see who IAF would choose.


----------



## KRAIT

born said:


> I think the deal will only be signed at the begining of next financial year.Correct me if m wrong


Only lowest bidder has been disclosed. Deal won't be signed before march. Now price negotiation will start. Even EF can get deal if they offer better than french. But announcement of lowest bidder is a significant for Dassault. There shares already rose immediately. They have to release information carefully to avoid sudden drop in share prices.


----------



## ganimi kawa

z9-ec said:


> False Alarm folks...
> 
> *India Rafale deal not yet signed - French source*
> 
> Jan 31 (Reuters) - A French source close to the matter said on Tuesday that India had not yet signed a contract to buy Dassault Aviation Rafale fighter jets, though a step forward had been taken.
> 
> Dassault has placed the lowest bid to supply India with 126 fighters in a multi-billion dollar deal, two Indian government sources said earlier on Tuesday, adding that further commercial negotiations would first have to take place.
> 
> "No contract has been signed," the French source said.
> 
> A source close to the French finance ministry dampened reports that Dassault had already won the contest, which is pitting the Rafale against the Eurofighter Typhoon
> 
> 
> India Rafale deal not yet signed - French source | Reuters


'







> *Rafale's bid was said to be significantly lower than the other fighter, the Eurofighter Typhoon. The MMRCA is Indias biggest single defence deal which will see India purchasing 126 fighters planes for the Indian Air Force.
> 
> A final contract will be signed following negotiations by March this year. As per the contract rules, India will now negotiate the terms and the offsets clause.*




So, except for some major league goof up by Dassault; this is a done deal.


----------



## AbhimanyuShrivastav

wanglaokan said:


> The successful bidding of Indian MMRCA will speed J-10's export to Pakistan.Guess which is better, mighty dragon or Rafle?



Anything Chinese is better than anything that rest of the world can produce.. Now shoo... Dont spoil the thread


----------



## KRAIT

z9-ec said:


> True, the next logical step for PAF is to pursue J-10B on priority basis and perhaps increase the amount of JF-17s to be procured. I think the only reason PAF delayed it's purchase was to see who IAF would choose.


I don't think so. They are following old timeline of inducting JF-17 , both block I, block II. J-10B was always on the table as they knew whatever india will buy will be in competition with it. I think delay was due to cost as Oscar said in one of his post. 
But you never know how PAF strategists think ?


----------



## z9-ec

KRAIT said:


> Then you would have bought your own rafale.
> I am wondering what happened to EF consortium related firms' shares?



 I did look it up. I think BAE is up 1 %

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## zer_0

Hello_10 said:


> I had told to Sancho. IAF will either buy Mig35 which may do its work economically and efficiently for just $55mil per piece, or, if they want to pay twice then its Rafale only, the best Multi Role aircraft of the 4++ generation. We now hope IAF may prefer to wait for 2-3 years for the first batch of Rafale but they would go for the best features of Rafale only which would incorporate a powerful AESA radar, stealth features etc like how SU30MKIs are being upgraded to Super Sukhoi 30, SU35 to SU35BM, J10 to J10B, and Eurofighter to Euro 2020 etc
> 
> And now Its Mig35/ Mig29VOT for 80 more, as it already had infrastructure of Mig29s (68Mi29SMT+45Mi29k). Mig35, a primarily an air superiority aircraft with much improved A2G roles and very powerful AESA radar, while Mig29k being already supplied for INS Vikramaditya & IAC-1, Indian pilots already experienced on this aircrafts, which is available for just 55mil per piece with loaded with missiles also? Mig35 is set to win this additional $4.5bn deal to supply 80 MMRCA



i remember u........ with putin avatar

u the most neutral chinese member in this forum

even the fair and unbiased is unfair and biased(partial)

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## Imran Khan

ab refale ki tareefeen kero hahahahahaha last week EU fighter ki ki thi


----------



## z9-ec

KRAIT said:


> I don't think so. They are following old timeline of inducting JF-17 , both block I, block II. J-10B was always on the table as they knew whatever india will buy will be in competition with it. I think delay was due to cost as Oscar said in one of his post.
> But you never know how PAF strategists think ?



I think cost was never an issue with J-10B as China would be providing some level of assistance in the form of long term financial assistance. It was more to do with what IAF would procure and how to respond to that decision.


----------



## KRAIT

z9-ec said:


> I did look it up. I think BAE is up 1 %


Lets jointly buy shares for next 80 MMRCA India is considering.


----------



## jbond197

z9-ec said:


> True, the next logical step for PAF is to pursue J-10B on priority basis and perhaps increase the amount of JF-17s to be procured. I think the only reason PAF delayed it's purchase was to see who IAF would choose.



The first priority for Pakistan should be to setup a functional Democratic Govt that can bring Pakistan out of the current mess. Thinking of buying more air crafts at this point will only push Pakistan into greater mess. Also, there is no immediate threat to you from India so take your time and think where you want to lead your country to.


----------



## Don Jaguar

Imran Khan said:


> ab refale ki tareefeen kero hahahahahaha last week EU fighter ki ki thi



Bhai jaan rafale is no doubt a good jet.

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## Imran Khan

KRAIT said:


> Lets jointly buy shares for next 80 MMRCA India is considering.



jointly is not posible . BTW i was expecting rafale since long time as french are good to pay kickbacks

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## KRAIT

Imran Khan said:


> ab refale ki tareefeen kero hahahahahaha last week EU fighter ki ki thi



What do you think rest of the indian members who are not posting or reading PDF are doing?
All are searching web to find how Rafale is better than EF or any aircraft, so that they will be fully prepared to prove it. 
If it would have been EF, same thing as above.

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## Imran Khan

Don Jaguar said:


> Bhai jaan rafale is no doubt a good jet.



i know dear rafale is good as EU fighter but few people have habit to make there things great . look at F-7BGI thread


----------



## Ambitious.Asian

*DASSAULT AVIATION : French Trade Minister Confirms Dassault Secures India Deal For Fighter Jets*

*PARIS -(Dow Jones)- Dassault Aviation SA (AM.FR) has secured a multi-billion dollar contract to provide 126 Rafale fighter jets to the Indian military, French Trade Minister Pierre Lellouche said Tuesday, speaking on national radio station BFM Business.

Lellouche said that some details of the contract, which would be the first foreign order for Dassault's Rafale jet, need to be finalized.

The contract has an estimated value of around $10 billion.

Dassault will provide its Rafale multi-role jet to India after beating the Eurofighter Typhoon made by a consortium of BAE Systems, Italy's Finmeccanica SPA (FNC.MI), and the European Aeronautic Defence & Space Co. (EAD.FR).*


DASSAULT AVIATION : French Trade Minister Confirms Dassault Secures India Deal For Fighter Jets | 4-Traders

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## sathya

i ll come back after a special dinner...
hoping thread wont cross 25 pages by that time..


----------



## 帅的一匹

z9-ec said:


> True, the next logical step for PAF is to pursue J-10B on priority basis and perhaps increase the amount of JF-17s to be procured. I think the only reason PAF delayed it's purchase was to see who IAF would choose.



JF-17 is not that good for taking Rafle, J-10 is PAF first choice. At leat it doesnt cost you 10.4 billion.

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## Imran Khan

KRAIT said:


> What do you think rest of the indian members who are not posting or reading PDF are doing?
> All are searching web to find how Rafale is better than EF or any aircraft, so that they will be fully prepared to prove it.
> If it would have been EF, same thing as above.



nope they are busy to browse rafale best specs for counter each and every post  but no dough both rafale and eu fighters are good and same .

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## jbond197

Imran Khan said:


> jointly is not posible . BTW i was expecting rafale since long time as* french are good to pay kickbacks*



Nobody can deny about Paybacks as we have seen they are part of almost every Indian Defence deal..


----------



## Imran Khan

but still what is unit cost damn 126in 10.4bn$


----------



## z9-ec

KRAIT said:


> Lets jointly buy shares for next 80 MMRCA India is considering.


 
haha. BAE is a bit risky at this point. Share price is going down a bit may fall further if it is confirmed Rafale was chosen. It would be a wise choice if we know for certain or maybe a hint that the next 80 would go to EF


----------



## Imran Khan

jbond197 said:


> Nobody can deny about Paybacks as we have seen they are part of almost every Indian Defence deal..



its better to pay kickbacks dear rather then crash every month jets . its ok new page of IAF history .

btw were is storm force and his thread TYPHOON hit PAKISTAN


----------



## Sharath

jbond197 said:


> Nobody can deny about Paybacks as we have seen they are part of almost every Indian Defence deal..


ther r always Mr 10% around..


----------



## sathya

Hello_10 said:


> I had told to Sancho. IAF will either buy Mig35 which may do its work economically and efficiently for just $55mil per piece, or, if they want to pay twice then its Rafale only, the best Multi Role aircraft of the 4++ generation. We now hope IAF may prefer to wait for 2-3 years for the first batch of Rafale but they would go for the best features of Rafale only which would incorporate a powerful AESA radar, stealth features etc like how SU30MKIs are being upgraded to Super Sukhoi 30, SU35 to SU35BM, J10 to J10B, and Eurofighter to Euro 2020 etc
> 
> And now Its Mig35/ Mig29VOT for 80 more, as it already had infrastructure of Mig29s (68Mi29SMT+45Mi29k). Mig35, a primarily an air superiority aircraft with much improved A2G roles and very powerful AESA radar, while Mig29k being already supplied for INS Vikramaditya & IAC-1, Indian pilots already experienced on this aircrafts, which is available for just 55mil per piece with loaded with missiles also? Mig35 is set to win this additional $4.5bn deal to supply 80 MMRCA



we would like to have SUPER SUKHOI.. or PAKFA 
No thanks to Mig 35, we bought Mig29k instead..


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## Imran Khan

Sharath said:


> ther r always Mr 10% around..



i think you have less then 10% dear .10% or speciality of pakistan

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## Vasily Zaytsev

Imran Khan said:


> but still what is unit cost damn 126in 10.4bn$




As per CNN IBN , which is reporting unit price of roughly US $ 65 million.

Take it at its face value.


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## sathya

Imran Khan said:


> its better to pay kickbacks dear rather then crash every month jets . its ok new page of IAF history .
> 
> btw were is storm force and his thread TYPHOON hit PAKISTAN



still 80 aircrafts are in ... 
anyone can win..


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## Imran Khan

OHHH Many banned members make new ids for enjoy this moment  who can a new guy know abut that much details ? when i join forum i know only pakistani jets without speces

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## angeldude13

congrats iaf


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## praveen007

*The IAF will buy the first 18 aircraft off the shelf by end of 2012,
.
http://******frontierindia***.net/i...ndian-air-force-mmrca-contract-lowest-bidder/*
.
.
New Delhi: French Dassault Aviation SA (AM) is close to winning its first order for Rafale aircraft and that too the mother of all fighter aircraft export deals. Dassault Rafale has been declared the lowest price bidder of the much-awaited medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) deal for $10.4 billion.
The value is expected to go up to $ 20 Billion. Dassault has struggled to find foreign buyer
for Rafale. It&#8217;s bid was said to be &#8216;significantly&#8217; lower than the other fighter, the Eurofighter Typhoon. The MMRCA is India&#8217;s biggest single defence deal which will see India purchasing 126 fighters planes for the Indian Air Force.
A final contract will be signed following negotiations by March this year. As per the contract rules, India will now negotiate the terms and the offsets clause.
India had shortlisted the Rafale and Eurofighter in April 2011, after rejecting bids from U.S. manufacturers Lockheed Martin Corp., Boeing Co., the Swedish Saab AB (SAABB) and the Russian OAO United Aircraft Corp.
*The IAF will buy the first 18 aircraft off the shelf by end of 2012, while the other 118 will be manufactured in partnership with an Indian company.*
Dassault Aviation SA (AM) is yetto comment.


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## Rocky25

The Happiest day in my life!


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## z9-ec

praveen007 said:


> *The IAF will buy the first 18 aircraft off the shelf by end of 2012,
> .
> http://******frontierindia***.net/i...ndian-air-force-mmrca-contract-lowest-bidder/*
> .
> .
> New Delhi: French Dassault Aviation SA (AM) is close to winning its first order for Rafale aircraft and that too the mother of all fighter aircraft export deals. Dassault Rafale has been declared the lowest price bidder of the much-awaited medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) deal for $10.4 billion.
> The value is expected to go up to $ 20 Billion. Dassault has struggled to find foreign buyer
> for Rafale. It&#8217;s bid was said to be &#8216;significantly&#8217; lower than the other fighter, the Eurofighter Typhoon. The MMRCA is India&#8217;s biggest single defence deal which will see India purchasing 126 fighters planes for the Indian Air Force.
> A final contract will be signed following negotiations by March this year. As per the contract rules, India will now negotiate the terms and the offsets clause.
> India had shortlisted the Rafale and Eurofighter in April 2011, after rejecting bids from U.S. manufacturers Lockheed Martin Corp., Boeing Co., the Swedish Saab AB (SAABB) and the Russian OAO United Aircraft Corp.
> *The IAF will buy the first 18 aircraft off the shelf by end of 2012, while the other 118 will be manufactured in partnership with an Indian company.*
> Dassault Aviation SA (AM) is yetto comment.



Indeed, I had a hunch this would be the case with Rafale. EF if my memory serves right refused to give such an offer.


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## KRAIT

sathya said:


> we would like to have SUPER SUKHOI.. or PAKFA
> No thanks to Mig 35, we bought Mig29k instead..


We don't need Mig 35, SUper Sukhoi already going to have AESA, advanced avionics, ram coating (proposed) etc.


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## Ambitious.Asian

wanglaokan said:


> JF-17 is not that good for taking Rafle, J-10 is PAF first choice. At leat it doesnt cost you 10.4 billion.


 

i don't think that J-10 can GET down any rafale on it's OWN.....correct me if i was wrong

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## sreekimpact

WOW!!!!..............


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## Ambitious.Asian

* 2000: Indian Air Force (IAF) conveys to defence ministry its interest in acquiring medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) to replace its ageing fleet of Soviet-era MiG-21s and because of delays in developing the indigenous light combat aircraft (LCA).

* 2001: IAF issues request for information (RFI) for 126 combat jets.

* 2003: IAF seeks defence ministry's permission to buy 50 more French Mirage-2000s to shore up the only MMRCAs in its fleet as a stop-gap arrangement. The aircraft had been acquired in the mid-1980s.

* 2004: Defence ministry asks IAF to instead issue a larger MMRCA tender.

* 2005: Defence ministry issues initial MMRCA tender but withdraws it quickly even as it starts receiving responses from vendors.

* 2006: The then IAF chief, Air Chief Marshal S.P. Tyagi, flags the dwindling squadron strength of the force. From a sanctioned strength of 39.5 combat squadrons, the IAF is down to 33 squadrons.

* August 2007: India issues the tender for 126 MMRCAs at an estimated cost of $10.4 billion.

* February 2008: US majors Boeing and Lockheed Martin, Russia's United Aircraft Corporation, France's Dassault, European consortium EADS and Sweden's SAAB submit their bids.

* April 2009: Reports that Dassault and SAAB are out of the race.

* May 2009: Defence ministry says Dassault and SAAB still in contention.

* April 2010: IAF completes its flight and weapons evaluation of the six contenders on the basis of 643 parameters.

* December 2010: Offset proposals of contenders goes missing; later found on the roadside in south Delhi. The incident threatens to derail the tendering process.

* April 2011: India down-selects EADS and Dassault for the final leg of the contest, rejecting the other four contenders.

* November 2011: The commercial offers from European consortium Eurofighter and France's Dassault Aviation opened.

*>January 31, 2012: Dassault informed that it has emerged as the lowest bidder.*


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## SQ8

The actual winner...
MIG-21 Pilots.. they probably celebrated like crazy

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## 帅的一匹

z9-ec said:


> I think cost was never an issue with J-10B as China would be providing some level of assistance in the form of long term financial assistance. It was more to do with what IAF would procure and how to respond to that decision.


China have 3 thousand billions USD reservation, it dosnt matter whether PAK will pony up the bill or not. 10.4 billion USD could afford 200 plus J10 already. I think Rafle is a very good MRCA for India, but J-10 could take on it as to unit price and specification. J-10 is more good at air combat than Rafle, which is more a good choice for Indian Navy.

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## Imran Khan

Oscar said:


> The actual winner...
> MIG-21 Pilots.. they probably celebrated like crazy



yes those who suffer was mig-23 and mig-21 pilots not they start training and work on new birds ASAP and feel much much more safe then before


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## GURU DUTT

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 122 users browsing this thread. (27 members and 95 guests)


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## abbasniazi

IMHO, this deal is not so momentous for the IAF but its humungous for the Rafale.

Rafale, despite being a state of the art plane was in desperate need of a huge contract of sale from a foreign customer to bring it the certificate of fieldable, viable, worth spending $$$ aircraft and this deal will do the trick for rafale, i think looking at this deal many reluctant customers will now have confidence in this platform and rafale may receive a few more contracts from the foreign customers...my 2 cents...

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## Vasily Zaytsev

http://www.defenseworld.net/go/defe...Rafale Beats Eurofighter Indian MMRCA Contest



Rafale Beats Eurofighter In Indian MMRCA Contest
Our Bureau
Tue, Jan 31, 2012 12:51 CET
French combat plane manufacturer Dassault's Rafale fighter has won the Indian MMRCA competiton beating the European consortum's Eurofighter aircraft in a contest that went on for four years. Rafale executives were called by Indian MOD officials this morning and informed that their aircraft has been finally selected.

*The Dassualt team has been issued a letter confirming the Indian MOD's choice, sources told Defenseworld.net. Separately, Eurofighter executives were called in and informed of their elimination from the contest this afternoon,sources close to Eurofighter informed Defenseworld.net.

The final choice was made on price, sources said adding that the French aircraft's total cost worked to about 20% cheaper than that of the Eurofighter.*

The India win means sweet success for Dassault which has been struggling in the international marketplace for decades now to find an international buyer for its Rafale multi role fighter. The final price is estimated to US$12 billion for 126 fighters. Some 24 fighters are expected to be sent to Indian in a fly-away condition while the rest are to be licence-manufactured in India.

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## 帅的一匹

Ambitious.Asian said:


> i don't think that J-10 can GET down any rafale on it's OWN.....correct me if i was wrong


At the time you could produce micky Rafle by yourself, we might have manufactured thousand J-20. Which is a whole generation over Rafle. You still need to work hard, time for celebration is not there yet.


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## prabhakar

*Expert View - French Rafale lowest bidder in India*

REUTERS - France's Rafale combat jet has undercut the Eurofighter Typhoon and its manufacturer Dassault is now in exclusive talks on a deal worth up to $15 billion to supply India with 126 fighter planes, Indian government sources said.

Following are reactions to the news, which pushed shares in Dassault Aviation (AVMD.PA) up more than 20 percent to their highest level in over four years.

FRENCH TRADE MINISTER PIERRE LELLOUCHE

"I confirm that we are in a very positive phase for the Rafale in India...At this stage we have to remain prudent; we are in a phase of exclusive negotiations. We have won the contract but there a number of things to finalize so let's be cautious for now."

DASSAULT AVIATION (STATEMENT)

"Following the announcement of the final selection of the Rafale in the frame of the MMRCA program, Dassault Aviation and its partners are honored and grateful to the Indian Government and the people of India to be given the opportunity to extend their long-lasting cooperation."

FRANCIS TUSA

EDITOR, DEFENCE ANALYSIS

"In these competitions as soon as you say there is an evaluation and X is the winner people pay attention, but then you need to have a commercial and industrial evaluation.

This is not a victory, it is round two."

FRENCH LAWMAKER OLIVIER DASSAULT

(SON OF DASSAULT GROUP CEO SERGE DASSAULT)

"It's very, very, very good news not only for Dassault but the whole of the French aeronautic industry.

"It's a programme on which more than 500 companies are cooperating. It's a victory for all of the small- and medium-sized high-technology companies that are participating in the construction of the most beautiful airplane in the world."

HOWARD WHEELDON, SENIOR STRATEGIST, BGC PARTNERS

"This is not the end of the road by any stretch of the imagination. This is only the beginning of a second stage of this campaign.

India is going to ensure it gets what it wants. The bottom line will be when they ask what industrial assistance is genuinely going to be put in, compared with what is promised. The second stage will be more about whether promises can actually be met.

The Typhoon, unlike the Rafale, is far from being a mature aircraft. The Typhoon has time on its side; the Rafale does not.

(Compiled by Tim Hepher, Leigh Thomas)

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## Dash

Calling all Rafale lovers, to name a few Dash, Sancho, Spark.....where are you guys?

Just Indian Press release is awaited.


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## jackyy

wanglaokan said:


> At the time you could produce micky Rafle by yourself, *we might have manufactured thousand J-20. Which is a whole generation over Rafle*. You still need to work hard, time for celebration is not there yet.



wats up??

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## trident2010

*French company Dassault wins bid for IAF&#8217;s 126 fighters*


French company Dassault Rafale on Tuesday bagged India&#8217;s biggest-ever contract for supplying 126 combat aircraft for the air force, edging out European competitor EADS in the multi-billion dollar deal.

The French firm was declared as the lowest bidder, according to which it will get the contract under India&#8217;s defence procurement procedure, sources said.

&#8220;The French firm Dassault Rafale has emerged as the L-1 (lowest bidder) and cheaper than its European rival EADS (maker of Eurofighter) in the tender and will be offered to supply the aircraft to the IAF,&#8221; the source said.

They said the representatives of Dassault here were informed about the development in the morning and further negotiations on price will be held with them in the next 10-15 days.

The contract will be signed only in the next fiscal.

According to the Request for Proposal (RFP), the winner of the contract will have to supply 18 of the 126 aircraft to the IAF in 36 months from its facilities and the remaining would be produced at HAL facilities in Bangalore.

Six companies including American F-16 and F-18, Russian MiG 35, Swedish Saab Gripen along with Eurofighter and Dassault Rafale were in the race in the beginning.

But in April last year, the Defence Ministry shortlisted Dassault and EADS, evicting the American, Russian and Swedish bids.

The process was started with the issuing of a global tender in 2007 after which all the six contenders were subjected to extensive field evaluation trails by the Indian Air Force at several locations across the globe.


The Hindu : News / National : Frech company Dassault wins bid for IAF


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## lilaspr

Even though i am big Eurofighter fan, but i think IAF made a wise decision. Both Rafale and Eurofighter are more or less same. 
I think game changer for Rafale
1) TOT
2) Air 2 Ground 
3) Rafale (indian navy also wanted, if i am not worng Rafale has naval version or developing)

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## Ambitious.Asian

wanglaokan said:


> At the time you could produce micky Rafle by yourself, we might have manufactured thousand *J-20. Which is a whole generation over Rafle.* You still need to work hard, time for celebration is not there yet.

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## rockstarIN

Oscar said:


> The actual winner...
> MIG-21 Pilots.. they probably celebrated like crazy



NO..they will celebrate when the much awaited LCA gets into production.


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## jackyy

lilaspr said:


> Even though i am big Eurofighter fan, but i think IAF made a wise decision. Both Rafale and Eurofighter are more or less same.
> I think game changer for Rafale
> 1) TOT
> 2) Air 2 Ground
> 3) Rafale (indian navy also wanted, if i am not worng Rafale has naval version or developing)



they are not same.EFT is far to reach at the level of present rafale


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## RoYaL~GuJJaR

Looks like i am late...

Congrats to all members here.....

Some pics....


























*This Deadly Bird flying over Himalayas......*

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## jackyy




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## 500



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## MUHARIB

Finally!!!


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## Ambitious.Asian

RoYaL~GuJJaR said:


> Looks like i am late...
> 
> Congrats to all members here.....
> 
> Some pics....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
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> 
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> 
> *This Deadly Bird flying over Himalayas......*




ohhhhh yeah....we can celebrate later

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## BLEND

Finally its Rafale....wow!


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## 帅的一匹

abbasniazi said:


> IMHO, this deal is not so momentous for the IAF but its humungous for the Rafale.
> 
> Rafale, despite being a state of the art plane was in desperate need of a huge contract of sale from a foreign customer to bring it the certificate of fieldable, viable, worth spending $$$ aircraft and this deal will do the trick for rafale, i think looking at this deal many reluctant customers will now have confidence in this platform and rafale may receive a few more contracts from the foreign customers...my 2 cents...


India is the first buyer of Rafle in the international market, it fails in any other competition but in India. As to air combat, EF is lot more better than Raffle, MAYBE Indian navy have the upper hand than IAF.


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## jackyy

wanglaokan said:


> India is the first buyer of Rafle in the international market, it fails in any other competition but in India. As to air combat, EF is lot more better than Raffle, *MAYBE Indian navy have the upper hand than IAF*.


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## Soumya_india

RoYaL~GuJJaR said:


> Looks like i am late...
> 
> Congrats to all members here.....
> 
> Some pics....
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
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> 
> *This Deadly Bird flying over Himalayas......*


 
Great pics mate...

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## EastWest

*We have the french in our pockets now!!!!!*


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## Ambitious.Asian



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## Imran Khan

EastWest said:


> *We have the french in our pockets now!!!!!*



they stay in pocket with there wish you know why ? that pocket is full of money and they will try to take out that money as much as they can


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## Yeti

Very good news im chuffed to bits the long saga looks finally over!


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## jackyy

*Dassault Jumps Most in 22 Years on Rafale India Bid: Paris Mover*

Dassault Jumps Most in 22 Years on Rafale India Bid: Paris Mover - Businessweek

*Expert view*

Expert View - French Rafale lowest bidder in India | Reuters


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## Dash

Imran Khan said:


> they stay in pocket with there wish you know why ? that pocket is full of money and they will try to take out that money as much as they can



Not by "stealing", by selling some stuff.


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## KRAIT

Comparisons have regained its momentum. J-10B, Rafale, JF-17 Block III, Eurofighter. 
"I have a feeling, That tonights gonna be a good night"


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## Vasily Zaytsev

France's Rafale deal to include tech transfer-Sarkozy - Reuters



WIRE NEWS

France's Rafale deal to include tech transfer-Sarkozy
31 Jan 2012, 07:52 PM
PARIS (Reuters) - French President Nicolas Sarkozy on Tuesday said that he welcomed a decision by India's government to enter into "exclusive negotiations" with France's Dassault for the purchase of 126 Rafale jet fighter planes.

*In a statement, Sarkozy said talks over the contract would begin shortly, adding that the deal would include significant transfers of technology guaranteed by the French state.*

Dassault Aviation confirmed earlier that its fighter plane had been selected by the Indian air force.

(Reporting By Tim Hepher, Writing by Alexandria Sage; Editing by Jon Loades-Carter)

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## 帅的一匹

KRAIT said:


> Comparisons have regained its momentum. J-10B, Rafale, JF-17 Block III, Eurofighter.
> "I have a feeling, That tonights gonna be a good night"


Just compare J-10B and Rafle, any comment please.


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## Yeti

BBC News - French Rafale jet beats Eurofighter in $10bn India deal



Poor Europe lol

---------- Post added at 02:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:44 PM ----------

One Indian defence ministry source confirmed to Reuters that the Rafale had been "much cheaper unit-wise", adding: "Moreover, the Indian air force, which is well-equipped with French fighters, is favouring the French."



Looks like Rafale was cheaper in L1


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## notorious_eagle

Where is our friend Sancho? He's been advocating the purchase of Rafale with so much enthusiasm and vigour, i am sure he's celebrating and dancing his heart out .


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## KRAIT

wanglaokan said:


> Just compare J-10B and Rafle, any comment please.


J-10B , more value for money.


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## Yeti

Sancho and Spark must be in party mode bring out the mithai

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## peep

AWESOME !!


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## machinist

Imran Khan said:


> they stay in pocket with there wish you know why ? that pocket is full of money and they will try to take out that money as much as they can



No sir, its a mutual benefit for both of us. They wants money and we wants technology, aircraft, experience, knowledge.
Anyhow the production of the aircraft is going to be in India. so it is also going for the people's pockets.

BTW, does anybody have any idea, where the production is planned. HAL or any private sectors involved in it?


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## peep

My fellow Indians, please have some 

It is party night for us

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## notorious_eagle

wanglaokan said:


> Just compare J-10B and Rafle, any comment please.



Comparing apples and oranges. Different planes, different specs and different mission requirements. J10 is more suited towards high altitude air superiority missions while the Rafale is more geared towards strike missions.


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## notsuperstitious

It was the logical choice.

1) We already operate french and like it
2) Our requirement is immediate, Rafale is available immediately, not EF
3) Easier to deal with one country (and a business friendly country that supported India even going against the US) than four, all four can not go against US
4) Rafale can be used off ACs
5) French not sanction happy, also willing to share technology
6) French have all to offer, from subs to advanced ship building to nuclear tech to great food and wine, what else do we need  ?

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## Imran Khan

Yeti said:


> BBC News - French Rafale jet beats Eurofighter in $10bn India deal
> 
> 
> 
> Poor Europe lol
> 
> ---------- Post added at 02:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:44 PM ----------
> 
> One Indian defence ministry source confirmed to Reuters that the Rafale had been "much cheaper unit-wise", adding: "Moreover, the Indian air force, which is well-equipped with French fighters, is favouring the French."
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like Rafale was cheaper in L1



now poor EU kal tak to france tha ?

EU is not going to be poor with 10.4bn$ nor France is going to be 15% increased in GDP this year . only its bubble by fan boys .

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## KRAIT

machinist said:


> No sir, its a mutual benefit for both of us. They wants money and we wants technology, aircraft, experience, knowledge.
> Anyhow the production of the aircraft is going to be in India. so it is also going for the people's pockets.
> 
> 
> BTW, does anybody have any idea, where the production is planned. HAL or any private sectors involved in it?


First 18 off the shelf, rest 108 by HAL.

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## Zarvan

Pakistanis will be really very happy because if we look at Technology wise J -10 B and Rafale are of the same category and Rafale is never selected by any other country what I can see behind this decision is lot of corruption and Money Mafia involved


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## KRAIT

Imran Khan said:


> now poor EU kal tak to france tha ?
> 
> EU is not going to be poor with 10.4bn$ nor France is going to be 15% increased in GDP this year . only its bubble by fan boys .


This deal meant a lot for employment generation

Eurozone unemployment hits new record
BBC News - Eurozone unemployment hits new record


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## jackyy

notorious_eagle said:


> Comparing apples and oranges. Different planes, different specs and different mission requirements. J10 is more suited towards high altitude air superiority missions while the Rafale is more geared towards strike missions.



rafale is omni role i.e both for ground and air roles
MMRCA=medium *multi role* combat aircraft


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## notsuperstitious

Zarvan said:


> Pakistanis will be really very happy because if we look at Technology wise J -10 B and Rafale are of the same category and Rafale is never selected by any other country what I can see behind this decision is lot of corruption and Money Mafia involved



If it makes you happy, why the hell are you so sad?

- Sheryl Crow

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## jackyy

Zarvan said:


> Pakistanis will be really very happy because if we look at Technology wise J -10 B and Rafale are of the same category and Rafale is never selected by any other country what I can see behind this decision is lot of corruption and Money Mafia involved


 

you guys are free to delude yourself

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## Yeti

Imran Khan said:


> now poor EU kal tak to france tha ?
> 
> EU is not going to be poor with 10.4bn$ nor France is going to be 15% increased in GDP this year . only its bubble by fan boys .




This deal could be worth up to $20bn+ it's a big loss for Eurofighter make no mistake about it


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## KRAIT

Zarvan said:


> Pakistanis will be really very happy because if we look at Technology wise J -10 B and Rafale are of the same category and Rafal
> e is never selected by any other country what I can see behind this decision is lot of corruption and Money Mafia involved


Or Rafale lost due to US pressure on potential buyer or diplomacy involved with EF as you can strengthen defense ties with four countries by buying one product.


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## Yeti

Dassault Jumps Most in 22 Years on Rafale India Bid: Paris Mover - Businessweek


highest jump in shares in 22 years for Dassault

---------- Post added at 03:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:05 PM ----------

Guys anyone seen a discovery show where it shows Sukhoi 30 MKI with Rafales vs American fighters? this was shown over a year ago


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## RoYaL~GuJJaR



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## Imran Khan

Yeti said:


> This deal could be worth up to $20bn+ it's a big loss for Eurofighter make no mistake about it



world is not gonna end after this deal and buyers will buy EU fighter its not lose as you admit there was a customer and that select rafale thats it what they lose sink there jet? they will market it to world as before .


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## KRAIT

Dassault is still in the running to win a contest in the United Arab Emirates, and remains in talks with Brazil about a contract.

Looks like this news might bring more offers to Dassault.


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## Abingdonboy

Zarvan said:


> Pakistanis will be really very happy because if we look at Technology wise J -10 B and Rafale are of the same category and Rafale is never selected by any other country what I can see behind this decision is lot of corruption and Money Mafia involved



Yeah you wish. How could the J-10B be anywhere near as good as the Rafele that is built by ont of the most experienced and capable aerospace firms in the world? The sensor fusion, avionics, electronic warfare systems, engines, radar, weapon load, weapon range etc are all FAR more advanced than the J-10B. Are you honestly saying China has somehow managed to leap frog all leading aerospace companies and produce better technology? It's far fetched even for you lot. In truth there really is no comparison and you know it.


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## Yeti

Dark beast is so damn sexy!!

---------- Post added at 03:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:11 PM ----------




Imran Khan said:


> world is not gonna end after this deal and buyers will buy EU fighter its not lose as you admit there was a customer and that select rafale thats it what they lose sink there jet? they will market it to world as before .




Nobody said the world is going to end but this was a massive order and will have some implications.


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## praveen007

*British view on this
.
.
BBC News - French Rafale jet beats Eurofighter in $10bn India deal
.
.*
.
Dassault Aviation will now enter final negotiations
before signing the deal that will supply India's air
force with 126 Rafale aircraft.
Correspondents say this is one of the world's
biggest defence deals and is a major setback for
rival bidder, the Eurofighter Typhoon.
Eurofighter lost out in December on an $8bn deal
to supply jets to Japan.
Shares in Dassault Aviation rocketed more than
20% as the latest news broke.
.
*
Both Germany and the UK invested a lot of time in pushing the Typhoon, so this will hurt&#8221;
.
'Purely cost'* Officials at the British High Commission in Delhi said they were disappointed with the decision and would now study the details.
They added: "It was expressly said this was about the cost of the contract, not a reflection on the health of bilateral relations between India and the countries."
The officials said they "genuinely believed the [Eurofighter] Typhoon offered the best capability now and in the future".
They also said it was "not beyond imagination" that India might decide the Rafale was not the right option as it continued the process.
French Minister of State for Foreign Trade Pierre Lellouche welcomed the deal, the first foreign order for the Rafale multi-role jet.
He said: "This is good news and France needs good news right now... It is good news for our aerospace industry and for our defence industry."
Mr Lellouche also complained that "political pressure applied by our competitor does not make things very easy". James Hardy, Asia Pacific specialist at IHS Jane's Defence Weekly, said this was a *"big loss for Eurofighter".*
"The Typhoon was widely tipped to be the favourite and had major political support from the big beasts of the Eurofighter nations. Both Germany and the UK invested a lot of time in pushing the Typhoon, so this will hurt."
Indian Defence Minister AK Antony had earlier cautioned that this remained a *"long process"* and that no deal would be signed before the end of March.
One Indian defence ministry source confirmed to Reuters that the Rafale had been "much cheaper unit-wise", adding: "Moreover, the Indian air force, which is well-equipped with French fighters, is favouring the French."
The Typhoon is built by the German and Spanish branches of European aerospace giant EADS, Britain's BAE Systems and Italy's Finmeccanica.
Four other bidders had dropped out in the lengthy Indian selection process.
India is the biggest arms importer among emerging nations.


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## 帅的一匹

notorious_eagle said:


> Comparing apples and oranges. Different planes, different specs and different mission requirements. J10 is more suited towards high altitude air superiority missions while the Rafale is more geared towards strike missions.


J-10B is dedicated to air to face strike, image the tremendous thrust-weight ratio euipped by WS-10B. If Indian put Rafle on the carrier, it face J-15(China type Su-33).


----------



## marcos98

I APPROVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## peep

Yeti said:


> Nobody said the world is going to end but this was a massive order and will have some implications[/B].



Usse faltu mooh mat lag. It is celebration time. celebrate it.

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## Yeti

Intresting news that the Brits may also be considering the Rafale as a stop gap for the UK's aircraft carrier.


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## peep

wanglaokan said:


> J-10B is dedicated to air to face strike, image the tremendous thrust-weight ratio euipped by WS-10B. If Indian put Rafle on the carrier, it face J-15(China type Su-33).



This thread is not about PLAAF/PLAN's tactics against MRCA. Plz dont reply to trolls/not do it your self

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## Yeti



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## 帅的一匹

Abingdonboy said:


> Yeah you wish. How could the J-10B be anywhere near as good as the Rafele that is built by ont of the most experienced and capable aerospace firms in the world? The sensor fusion, avionics, electronic warfare systems, engines, radar, weapon load, weapon range etc are all FAR more advanced than the J-10B. Are you honestly saying China has somehow managed to leap frog all leading aerospace companies and produce better technology? It's far fetched even for you lot. In truth there really is no comparison and you know it.


 
The underestimate of China technology make you look goofy. I don't hear French company have any plan to buid 5-generation plane, wake up from your empire dream, nothing to boast for a spent bullet.


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## KRAIT

Plz change this fixed mid-air refueller probe to retractable one....


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## jackyy

wanglaokan said:


> The underestimate of China technology make you look goofy. I don't hear French company have any plan to buid 5-generation plane, wake up from your empire dream, nothing to boast for a spent bullet.




indian 5th generation will be PAK FA not french
and every chinese plane is copy cat

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## StormShadow

NEW DELHI: This is how India's biggest defence deal, a $10.4-billion tender for 126 combat aircraft, panned out: 

* 2000: Indian Air Force (IAF) conveys to defence ministry its interest in acquiring medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) to replace its ageing fleet of Soviet-era MiG-21s and because of delays in developing the indigenous light combat aircraft (LCA). 

* 2001: IAF issues request for information (RFI) for 126 combat jets. 

* 2003: IAF seeks defence ministry's permission to buy 50 more French Mirage-2000s to shore up the only MMRCAs in its fleet as a stop-gap arrangement. The aircraft had been acquired in the mid-1980s. 

* 2004: Defence ministry asks IAF to instead issue a larger MMRCA tender. 

* 2005 : Defence ministry issues initial MMRCA tender but withdraws it quickly even as it starts receiving responses from vendors. 

* 2006: The then IAF chief, Air Chief Marshal S.P. Tyagi, flags the dwindling squadron strength of the force. From a sanctioned strength of 39.5 combat squadrons, the IAF is down to 33 squadrons. 

* August 2007: India issues the tender for 126 MMRCAs at an estimated cost of $10.4 billion. 

* February 2008: US majors Boeing and Lockheed Martin, Russia's United Aircraft Corporation, France's Dassault, European consortium EADS and Sweden's SAAB submit their bids. 

* April 2009: *Reports that Dassault and SAAB are out of the race. *

* May 2009: Defence ministry says Dassault and SAAB still in contention. 

* April 2010: IAF completes its flight and weapons evaluation of the six contenders on the basis of 643 parameters. 

* December 2010: Offset proposals of contenders goes missing; later found on the roadside in south Delhi. The incident threatens to derail the tendering process. 

* April 2011: India down-selects EADS and Dassault for the final leg of the contest, rejecting the other four contenders. 

* November 2011: The commercial offers from European consortium Eurofighter and France's Dassault Aviation opened. 

January 31, 2011: * Dassault informed that it has emerged as the lowest bidder.*


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## KRAIT

wanglaokan said:


> The underestimate of China technology make you look goofy. I don't hear French company have any plan to buid 5-generation plane, wake up from your empire dream, nothing to boast for a spent bullet.


Leave it man.... Any info about time of induction of J-20 .... ??


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## RoYaL~GuJJaR

This is Good Decision i must say...Their are many reasons behind this...

* Lowest Bidder.(of course) 
* TOT of high end technology.
* India already operate mirage 2000.
* No strings attached.


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## Abingdonboy

wanglaokan said:


> The underestimate of China technology make you look goofy. I don't hear French company have any plan to buid 5-generation plane, wake up from your empire dream, nothing to boast for a spent bullet.



You truly have been brainwashed by your media.


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## 帅的一匹

jackyy said:


> indian 5th generation will be PAK FA not french
> and every chinese plane is copy cat


At least copy doesnt cost 10 billion dollar,thanks for the generous endorsement to Republic of France. Reverse engineering is state of art, not simple copy right infringement.


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## Bl[i]tZ




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## Yeti

I find it intresting Discovery channel had the Rafale and Sukhoi MKI together over a year ago and it was later joined by the PAK-FA


----------



## 500

Nice video. How Rafale is made:

Dassault-Bréguet Aviation Rafale B301 Fabrication. - YouTube


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## jackyy

wanglaokan said:


> At least copy doesnt cost 10 billion dollar,thanks for the generous endorsement to Republic of France. Reverse engineering is state of art, not simple copy right infringement.



copies have no quality rest you can understand
who knows what's inside


----------



## Skull and Bones

Now one thing that should be done is to buy 60 used UAE Mirage 2000-9s and increase the squadron number ASAP.


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## 帅的一匹

Abingdonboy said:


> You truly have been brainwashed by your media.


Take back your brainwashed funny theory, just make me wanna laugh. Come on, Rafale is good in Lybria not mean it work with us.


----------



## RoYaL~GuJJaR

Yeti said:


> I find it intresting Discovery channel had the Rafale and Sukhoi MKI together over a year ago and it was later joined by the PAK-FA



Can you post the video here ?


----------



## peep

KRAIT said:


> Leave it man.... Any info about time of induction of J-20 .... ??



Is it so far beyond your comprehension ? What do u mean when is the date for induction of J20 ? 

Create a new thread if you are so curious. Stop trolling here. !!


----------



## RoYaL~GuJJaR

Skull and Bones said:


> Now one thing that should be done is to buy 60 used UAE Mirage 2000-9s and increase the squadron number ASAP.



Agree! And the number of MRCA should also be increased upto +200_ (Which i believe will be done later)_




@Indian members...

No need to reply this kid wang-lao-kan.


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## KRAIT

RoYaL~GuJJaR said:


> Agree! And the number of MRCA should also be increased upto +200_ (Which i believe will be done later)_


There will be another purchase of 80 aircrafts and it would be done separately.

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## peep

RoYaL~GuJJaR said:


> Agree! And the number of MRCA should also be increased upto +200_ (Which i believe will be done later)_



IMO no of rafales should be increased to 189 ( 126 + 63 ). It is a formidable platform and time/battle tested platform. We should build it in large numbers to counter those J-XX series ASAP.


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## Abingdonboy

Anyone else notice the significance of this straight from the horse's mouth also from today:


> *The source added the defense ministry was considering further extending the tender to buy an additional 80 or so jets, saying bidders excluded from the current process might be permitted to take part.*
> 
> 
> No India jet fighter deal before end March: minister | Reuters



Are we looking at a split order? 

Simultaneous induction would dramatically boost IAF fleet.

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## KRAIT

peep said:


> Is it so far beyond your comprehension ? What do u mean when is the date for induction of J20 ?
> 
> Create a new thread if you are so curious. Stop trolling here. !!


Dear i asked him, and as it was in discussion so i asked. i am not trolling or bashing other countrymen like you just because you don't like what he says.

Cheers.


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## peep

KRAIT said:


> There will be another purchase of 80 aircrafts and it would be done separately.



Are you talking of the 74+ N-rafales which IN wants to purchase ? coz a clause already exist in mmrca contract to increase the order to 189 if necessary.


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## Jason bourne



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## seethru

wanglaokan said:


> Take back your brainwashed funny theory, just make me wanna laugh. Come on, Rafale is good in Lybria not mean it work with us.


 
Doesn't become a theory if you choose to believe brainwashing.


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## Bl[i]tZ

RoYaL~GuJJaR said:


> Can you post the video here ?



This is part of a history channel documentary Dogfights of the Future Rafael + Su30 MKI (25) vs F-22 Raptor (4) 1*4:00 - 34:46*

It talks about French's Electronic Warfare suite.

Funny we're the only one who operates Su-30MKI and now Su-30MKI + Rafael.

Its a hypothetical scneario with usual American tales that Su-30MKIs and Rafaels fall off the sky when Raptor fires but even when our missile hits their planes their planes survive. 

History Channel Dogfights Season 2: Dogfights of the Future - YouTube

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## peep

KRAIT said:


> Dear i asked him, and as it was in discussion so i asked. i am not trolling or bashing other countrymen like you just because you don't like what he says.
> 
> Cheers.



No hard feelings mate. My intention was only to keep the discussion to the point and to stop the trollers from derailing the thread by posting one liners about their J-10B series/ Indian poverty etc.


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## peep

KRAIT said:


> Dear i asked him, and as it was in discussion so i asked. i am not trolling or bashing other countrymen like you just because you don't like what he says.
> 
> Cheers.



No hard feelings mate. My intention was only to keep the discussion to the point and to stop the trollers from derailing the thread by posting one liners about their J-10B series/ Indian poverty etc.


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## Yeti

RoYaL~GuJJaR said:


> Can you post the video here ?


 










It was history channel

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## KRAIT

Abingdonboy said:


> Anyone else notice the significance of this straight from the horse's mouth also from today:
> 
> 
> Are we looking at a split order?
> 
> Simultaneous induction would dramatically boost IAF fleet.


I hope thats the plan. But if we select EF, first delivery wont be before 2015. F-35 is also on table again time problem, cant get before 2018. Left with Grippen NG , cost effective, AESA almost complete, robust platform, Mig-35.. well we dont need it as Super Sukhoi is on way . F/A 18 or F 16 block 60, have chances , if they offer F-15 Silent eagle, we should grab it.


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## KRAIT

Abingdonboy said:


> Anyone else notice the significance of this straight from the horse's mouth also from today:
> 
> 
> Are we looking at a split order?
> 
> Simultaneous induction would dramatically boost IAF fleet.


I hope thats the plan. But if we select EF, first delivery wont be before 2015. F-35 is also on table again time problem, cant get before 2018. Left with Grippen NG , cost effective, AESA almost complete, robust platform, Mig-35.. well we dont need it as Super Sukhoi is on way . F/A 18 or F 16 block 60, have chances , if they offer F-15 Silent eagle, we should grab it.


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## jha

Abingdonboy said:


> Anyone else notice the significance of this straight from the horse's mouth also from today:
> 
> 
> Are we looking at a split order?
> 
> Simultaneous induction would dramatically boost IAF fleet.



Yup...This part is very interesting...

" Bidders excluded from current process" ..? - Could mean Boeing or, LM....



peep said:


> Are you talking of the 74+ N-rafales which IN wants to purchase ? coz a clause already exist in mmrca contract to increase the order to 189 if necessary.



Nah..Those planes are years from being inducted...Firstly design of IAC-II is to be decided...


----------



## jha

Abingdonboy said:


> Anyone else notice the significance of this straight from the horse's mouth also from today:
> 
> 
> Are we looking at a split order?
> 
> Simultaneous induction would dramatically boost IAF fleet.



Yup...This part is very interesting...

" Bidders excluded from current process" ..? - Could mean Boeing or, LM....



peep said:


> Are you talking of the 74+ N-rafales which IN wants to purchase ? coz a clause already exist in mmrca contract to increase the order to 189 if necessary.



Nah..Those planes are years from being inducted...Firstly design of IAC-II is to be decided...


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## KRAIT

peep said:


> Are you talking of the 74+ N-rafales which IN wants to purchase ? coz a clause already exist in mmrca contract to increase the order to 189 if necessary.


N-Rafales is entirely different deal. Even EF showed interest to offer under development N-EF if it wins MMRCA.

IAF asked for additional 80 MMRCA. It could be rafale or any other else


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## RoYaL~GuJJaR

QUOTE='Bl_tZ;2546840']This is part of a history channel documentary Dogfights of the Future Rafael + Su30 MKI (25) vs F-22 Raptor (4) 1*4:00 - 34:46*

It talks about French's Electronic Warfare suite.

Funny we're the only one who operates Su-30MKI and now Su-30MKI + Rafael.

*Its a hypothetical scneario with usual American tales that Su-30MKIs and Rafaels fall off the sky when Raptor fires but even when our missile hits their planes their planes survive. *

History Channel Dogfights Season 2: Dogfights of the Future - YouTube[/QUOTE]



Yeti said:



It was history channel

Click to expand...



Thanks for video mate..

LOL...Agree with bold part..

Need to watch that.._

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## 帅的一匹

seethru said:


> Doesn't become a theory if you choose to believe brainwashing.



We'will know who is brainwashed, don't hurry.


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## Night_Raven

Though I was rooting for EFT ... Good going Rafale !


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## Imran Khan

what happen suddenly all left thread and run out ?


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## Night_Raven

Though I was rooting for EFT ... Good going Rafale !


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## KRAIT

Abingdonboy said:


> Anyone else notice the significance of this straight from the horse's mouth also from today:
> 
> 
> Are we looking at a split order?
> 
> Simultaneous induction would dramatically boost IAF fleet.


I hope thats the plan. But if we select EF, first delivery wont be before 2015. F-35 is also on table again time problem, cant get before 2018. Left with Grippen NG , cost effective, AESA almost complete, robust platform, Mig-35.. well we dont need it as Super Sukhoi is on way . F/A 18 or F 16 block 60, have chances , if they offer F-15 Silent eagle, we should grab it.


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## indian navy

now MMRCA question is solved 

my one question how rafale can help us in lca2 or 3 any light on that


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## Night_Raven

Though I was rooting for EFT ... Good going Rafale !


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## acetophenol

*trust the french!*

from underwears 







to

*fighter jets!*








---------- Post added at 10:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:33 PM ----------

i don't care even if i die tommorow!

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## Bl[i]tZ




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## acetophenol

YOU ARE THE SUPERMAN!

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## machinist

said:


> i don't care even if i die tommorow!



pls wait until pakfa and then die next minute itself.


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## KRAIT

indian navy said:


> now MMRCA question is solved
> 
> my one question how rafale can help us in lca2 or 3 any light on that


Yeah. ToT from this deal will increase DRDO's capabilities.


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## Bl[i]tZ

Dassault Shares Jump Most in 22 Years on Rafale India Bid: Paris Mover - Businessweek

Jan. 31 (Bloomberg) -- Dassault Aviation SA rose the most in more than 22 years, after a person familiar with the matter said the company emerged as the lowest bidder to supply 126 fighter jets to the Indian Air Force.

Dassault shares rose more than 22 percent in Paris and traded 20 percent higher at 735 euros as of 3 p.m. A majority of the stock is held by the Dassault family, while European Aerospace, Defense & Space Co., the co-producer of the competing Typhoon, owns 46 percent.

&#8220;The announcement comes after a very high-level, equitable and transparent competition,&#8221; French President Nicolas Sarkozy said in an e-mailed statement. &#8220;The Rafale was selected thanks to its cost effectiveness over the lifetime of the plane.&#8221;


.
.
.

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## acetophenol

machinist said:


> pls wait until pakfa and then die next minute itself.



i've been waiting and waiting!


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## KRAIT

Guys now second round has started. Exclusive negotiation. Nothing is certain before deal is signed. We might have another celebration if EF bags the deal. So keep your fingers crossed or typing


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## anathema

OK Seriously -- *How many Guesses that French charged a huge amount of money for upgrades of Mirage so that they can lower Rafale's price per unit !!
*
Suddenly French stubborness makes sense !!! 

What's your opinion ?

Either way - its bliss !! French Beauties !!


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## The enlightened

Hurraaaaah.
I thought that we might not get to see this deal before 21/12/12 but we atleast have saving grace before the end of the world.
Okay who's up for J10/JF17 vs Rafale. Any1?

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## KRAIT

anathema said:


> OK Seriously -- *How many Guesses that French charged a huge amount of money for upgrades of Mirage so that they can lower Rafale's price per unit !!
> *
> Suddenly French stubborness makes sense !!!
> 
> What's your opinion ?
> 
> Either way - its bliss !! French Beauties !!



French defense minister already said that Rafale production will be discontinued in 2021 if it fails to have an export order. French charged $1.2 billion for mirages and its very good deal, making our mirages, most advanced mirages. French can't be stubborn now. Hope they don't do anything stupid and agree to transfer as much as they can.


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## Yaduveer

^^
Theek hai bhaiyya rafale khareed lo lekin JF17 is home (Joint )grown fighter ...In war Jf17 will have good replacement rates!


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## Bl[i]tZ

Guys, the $1.23 billion 500 air-to-air MICA missiles deal for the Mirage-2000's on Jan 4 this year are also the primary air-to-air weapon of Rafale till MBDA Meteor comes in 2013/14.

Now that deal makes more sense.


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## KRAIT

For that ToT from this deal will help LCA .

P.S. Don't give lame excuse like LCA= Last Chance Aircraft.


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## anathema

KRAIT said:


> French defense minister already said that Rafale production will be discontinued in 2021 if it fails to have an export order. French charged $1.2 billion for mirages and its very good deal, making our mirages, most advanced mirages. French can't be stubborn now. Hope they don't do anything stupid and agree to transfer as much as they can.



French charged in excess of $2B dollars including armament. And Ohh its a very expensive deal when you compare it to Russians..Not that i have any problem, but if this was there strategy then it has worked wonders !

---------- Post added at 12:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:01 PM ----------

*Congrats to SANCHO !!!!!! We all owe to that guy ! No 1 Rafale supporter. Second ofcourse being me - tied with Benny/Spark ! Although my Initial fav was Gripen.*

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## KRAIT

anathema said:


> French charged in excess of $2B dollars including armament. And Ohh its a very expensive deal when you compare it to Russians..Not that i have any problem, but if this was there strategy then it has worked wonders !


What would you want expensive deal or reduced and less effective squadrons ?
French knew we *HAD* to upgrade our mirages and they are good businessmen.


----------



## Bl[i]tZ

French media 

Dassault va vendre 126 rafales à l&#39;Inde - Libération

Translated version below


India has selected the Dassault Rafale in the colossal bid for to deliver 126 jets, which should be the first export success for this device French, announced Tuesday a government source of India.


Dassault was competing with the European consortium Eurofighter Typhoon and. This tender, dating back to 2007, is one of the largest ever launched by the third largest economy in Asia and one of the most important moment in the area of &#8203;&#8203;air defense.

"It is confirmed that Dassault was awarded the contract , "valued at $ 12 billion," as there were only two groups (in competition) and it is he who is the lowest bidder " the source said on condition of anonymity. The French State Secretary for Foreign Trade, Pierre Lellouche, confirmed the French success, but stressed that the contract remained to be finalized.

"We won the contract, but a few things remain to be finalized" and "we are in a period of exclusive negotiations , "Lellouche said on French radio station BFM. At the Paris Bourse, the title of Dassault soared 21.72% to 774.94 euros in the announcement of the contract awarded.

*France "welcomes"*

France " welcomes the decision of the Indian government to select " the Rafale, according to a statement from the Elysee confirming "exclusive negotiations" for the purchase by New Delhi to 126 copies of the combat aircraft from Dassault Aviation.

President Nicolas Sarkozy " was informed of the selection by India's Rafale for the acquisition by the Indian air force of 126 fighters " , wrote the president. Contract negotiations, the statement added, " will soon engage with the full support of the French authorities. It will include significant transfers of technology guaranteed by the French state. "

"The Rafale has been selected by the competitiveness of its overall cost of the life of the unit after a pre-selection in April 2011 on the basis of its qualities leading operational , "the statement said.

*Fierce competition*

The tender had attracted global giants in the sector who were engaged in fierce competition. The Rafale and Eurofighter aircraft had been shortlisted in April, putting out of play trucks American sector, Boeing and Lockheed Martin, the Swedish firm Saab Gripen, Russian MiG.

Eurofighter-Typhoon jet fighter is produced by a consortium of European defense groups and arming EADS (46%), BAE Systems (33%) and Italy's Alenia / Finmeccanica (21%). In India, the candidate the lowest bidder usually wins the contract.

This is the first call for tenders launched by India, who was far contracts over the counter and rested for 50 years of Soviet technology for its air force.

The contract stipulates that India, which seeks to modernize *its army will buy 18 aircraft directly by 2012*, while 108 others will be built in India.

*"Proponent"*

James Hardy, editor of industry publication Jane's Defence Weekly, praised the "great victory for the Rafale" , but cautioned that the final agreement was still far from concluded.

"The Rafale is the successful candidate, but any student acquisition (contract) knows that this means nothing, until the contract is not physically signed" , he warned, questioned by AFP.

According to this expert, the recent devaluation of the rupee against the dollar and the "normal contractual negotiations" could delay the signing of several years.

The juicy tender was the heart of many official visits to India last year. U.S. President Barack Obama, his French counterpart Nicolas Sarkozy, British Prime Minister David Cameron and the head of the Russian state Dmitry Medvedev had all been keen to advocate their respective manufacturers.

(AFP)

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## Yeti

BAE Systems union says 'nothing signed' in India jet deal The Eurofighter is built by Germany, Spain, Britain and Italy Continue reading the main story 

A union leader at BAE Systems Warton said he was "not overly worried" that a French firm is the lowest bidder for an export deal worth $11bn (£6.3bn). 

BAE Systems was hoping to sell 126 Eurofighter Typhoon jets which are partly assembled at Warton and Samlesbury to the Indian Air Force.

The Indian government has said French Rafale put in a lower bid and they are in final negotiations with the firm.

*Unite's Bob Holmes said it would be a "blow" but nothing had been signed yet.*
BAE Systems said it had not been officially notified of the development.

A BAE Systems spokesman described the news as *"speculation" *and until they received confirmation by German company Cassidian, who is leading Eurofighter's bid, they would be unable to comment.

'Massive blow'

Indian Defence Minister AK Antony had earlier cautioned that this remained a "long process" and that no deal would be signed before the end of March.

Mr Holmes, convenor of Unite for manual workers at BAE Systems Warton, said: "They have gone with the cheaper bid but the Eurofighter has a far greater spec. 

"It would be a massive blow if we didn't get the contract but there is a long way to go and nothing has been signed yet. This happens a lot in business - it is part of the process."

Mr Holmes said the contract would not affect pending job losses at Warton and Samlesbury. "Whether we get this contract or not - it will not impact on job cuts as these were already factored."

BAE Systems announced plans to cut 1,400 jobs in Lancashire and up to 900 at Brough in East Yorkshire in September. 

However, the firm said in January that more than half the 1,400 jobs under threat at BAE Systems in Lancashire have been cut without compulsory redundancies.

The Typhoon is built by the German and Spanish branches of European aerospace giant EADS, Britain's BAE Systems and Italy's Finmeccanica.

The Eurofighter lost out in December on an $8bn deal to supply jets to Japan.



BBC News - BAE Systems union says 'nothing signed' in India jet deal


----------



## Bl[i]tZ

Rafale in IAF colors

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## Ambitious.Asian

*'We are disappointed': European EADS on losing MMRCA deal*


New Delhi, Jan 31 (PTI) After losing out to the French Dassault Rafale the India's biggest-ever military contract for supplying 126 combat aircraft, European *EADS today said it was disappointed over the development but respected the Defence Ministry's decision*. India today issued a letter to French defence major Dassault informing it that it was the lowest bidder in the tender and would be offered the multi-billion dollar contract for 126 Medium-Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA). "Although this is not yet a contract signature and contract negotiations are still ahead, we are disappointed. However, we respect the decision of the Indian defence Ministry," EADS Cassidian -- the makers of the Eurofighter Typhoon aircraft said in a release. The company said that with the Eurofighter Typhoon, it had offered the most modern combat aircraft available to the IAF. "Based on the Indian Government feedback, we will now carefully analyse and evaluate this situation together with our European partner companies and their respective governments," it said. Eurofighter Typhoon is manufactured by a four-nation consortium including the UK, Germany, Spain and Italy and all four governments were backing the bid in the Indian tender.


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## Ambitious.Asian

*Dassault is top gun in Indian order dog-fight | euronews, economy*

surf link for vdo

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## sancho

> *Rafale selected to equip the Indian Air Force - 2012-01-31*
> 
> Saint-Cloud (France), January 31, 2012- Following the announcement of the final selection of the Rafale in the frame of the MMRCA program, Dassault Aviation and its partners are honored and grateful to the Indian Government and the people of India to be given the opportunity to extend their long-lasting cooperation.
> 
> *Dassault Aviation and its partners reiterate their commitment to meet the operational requirements of the Indian Air Force and underline their pride in contributing to Indias defence for over half a century. *



http://www.dassault-aviation.com/en...he-indian-air-force.html?L=1&cHash=8328870e9f

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## Tshering22

Bl[i]tZ;2547088 said:


> Rafale in IAF colors



We need to do something about the paint scheme. Camo looks too retro on jets these days. Low-viz Grey that Tejas is painted in, is the best color for IAF. Just love it. Imagine Tejas and Rafales jointly patrolling. That would be a feast to the eyes.

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## sancho

It will be really official only in March, but I think it's it's time to 


*Congrats to MoD, Indian forces, Indian industry as well as Dassault and France of course!!! *

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## Bl[i]tZ

As for EF and EADS feeling bad over this. In a good fair fight only one emerges victorious.

By the way, EADS has 46% stake in Dassault, so they won anyway.

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## KRAIT

Tshering22 said:


> We need to do something about the paint scheme. Camo looks too retro on jets these days. Low-viz Grey that Tejas is painted in, is the best color for IAF. Just love it. Imagine Tejas and Rafales jointly patrolling. That would be a feast to the eyes.


Seems like you want to send Tejas and Rafale on a Date.


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## Ambitious.Asian

KRAIT said:


> Seems like you want to send Tejas and Rafale on a Date.



along with JF17 huh


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## Bl[i]tZ

Ambitious.Asian said:


> along with JF17 huh



This has been a nice thread till now, don't ruin it.

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## Hello_10

wanglaokan said:


> At the time you could produce micky Rafle by yourself, we might have manufactured thousand *J-20. Which is a whole generation over Rafle.* You still need to work hard, time for celebration is not there yet.



Rafale or EFT is at least &#8216;++&#8217; ahead than J10. Like, this is a Pakistan defence forum and even if Pakistan has to pay twice for F16 block52 than J10, they accept all the conditions attached with it by US and buy it. But in case of J10, until they are granted loan by China, they don&#8217;t buy this half priced J10 to F16, like the case of Pak's order of 36 J10. And its also true that Rafale and EFT were selected over F16 block70, a much improved version than F16 block52. 



lilaspr said:


> Even though i am big Eurofighter fan, but i think IAF made a wise decision. Both Rafale and Eurofighter are more or less same.
> I think game changer for Rafale
> 1) TOT
> 2) Air 2 Ground
> 3) Rafale (indian navy also wanted, if i am not worng Rafale has naval version or developing)



your all the 3 points are correct and also its true that EFT needs to work at least 4-5 years more to reach the level where Rafale stands right now. they haven&#8217;t developed even AESA radar yet while Rafale with stealth features is also being negotiated for this MMRCA deal, with a more powerful AESA radar. also, if Rafale can be said to be the best for a2g roles, full multi role operations, then it is also pretty good on a2a operations. While IAF will already have over 270 air superiority SU30MKIs by 2015 for a2a operations, then why EFT? Full name of MRCA is &#8216;Multi Role Combat Aircraft&#8217;, not for primarily air superiority roles for what they already have MKIs, then why EFT?

Only a political factor like home production of EFT, being with 4 European nations, pressure from US as it also has its leg in EFT&#8217;s production with more influence on these 4 EU&#8217;s nations than on France, blab la could only help EFT over Rafale. Otherwise, Rafale was the winner since beginning if IAF could afford to pay twice than that of Mig35 and yes they do

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## GORKHALI

My choice atlast ..


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## palash_kol

Great news.....Now IN will be going the rafale way...


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## Yeti

in black she looks stunning like a dark knight


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## illusion8

Red faced  I thought it would be the EF.


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## GORKHALI



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## Ambitious.Asian

PANDORA said:


> My choice atlast ..








this is our choice

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## Yeti

Spark I can see you lol have some sweets your plane won!

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## sancho

anathema said:


> OK Seriously -- *How many Guesses that French charged a huge amount of money for upgrades of Mirage so that they can lower Rafale's price per unit !!
> *
> Suddenly French stubborness makes sense !!!
> 
> What's your opinion ?
> 
> Either way - its bliss !! French Beauties !!



Think about the claims about HAL building a new facility just to upgrade Mirage 2000s, which didn't make sense at all unless,...

...these would be used for the licence production of Rafale too! It eases HALs logistics, several principles of the production should be similar anyway, since Rafale was based on the Mirage 2000 development and experience. Samtel will benefit a lot from both as well, since they should get the biggest offset parts next to HAL.



Bl[i]tZ;2547033 said:


> Guys, the $1.23 billion 500 air-to-air MICA missiles deal for the Mirage-2000's on Jan 4 this year are also the primary air-to-air weapon of Rafale till MBDA Meteor comes in 2013/14.
> 
> Now that deal makes more sense.



Doubtful, 500 MICAs for 51 Mirage 2000-5s aren't that much, since each of them carries 5 to 6 MICAs at any mission, so there will be only a few left for reserve.

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## Ingis

On paper, the Eurofighter is better. 

I really hope that cost was not the only factor while picking Rafale over EF.


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## illusion8

One of the sources said France's Rafale jet was the likely winner, adding that the defence ministry was now considering buying another 80 or so jets and could invite bidders excluded from the current process to take part.


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## sancho

Let me help you buddy:



SpArK said:


> *Yes... Rafale has been confirmed lowest bidder*

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## praveen007




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## illusion8

There are currently 111 users browsing this thread. (24 members and 87 guests)


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## Screambowl

But would Rafale be upgraded with thrust vectoring?? and what would be the cost per unit after this up-gradation?


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## baker

hmm how many times i need to change the side.... Jai Rafale... [hope MOD wont change its decision]


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## Birbal

Nice to hear. The EFT was expensive, hard to obtain supplies for (with four countries building it and no commonality with Mirage 2000), and not to mention ugly. Rafale wasn't my first choice here, but it's a hell of a lot better than the EFT.


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## praveen007

*Livefist: Disappointed, But It Ain't Over: Eurofighter
.
.*
Eurofighter Statement: India took the decision to select our competitor as the preferred bidder in the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) tender. Although this is not yet a contract signature and contract negotiations are still ahead, we are disappointed. However, we respect the decision of the Indian MoD. With the Eurofighter Typhoon, we offered the Indian Air Force the most modern combat aircraft available. Based on the Indian Government feedback, we will now carefully analyze and evaluate this situation together with our European Partner Companies and their respective Governments.


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## jackyy

France's Dassault beats BAE Systems to clinch Indian government fighter jet contract - Telegraph

see the comments and frustration among brits
even they are discussing poverty like our neighbors

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## Birbal

jackyy said:


> France's Dassault beats BAE Systems to clinch Indian government fighter jet contract - Telegraph
> 
> see the comments and frustration among brits
> even they are discussing poverty like our neighbors



You should have seen how crazy they went after Russia wiped them out in the 2018 World Cup Hosting bid.


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## cyphercide

Nahi!!! Rafaleboiz and their omnipotence won.....Is it too late to abandon the EFT camp?

Kudos to all those who got it right but as they say "At the end of the day,all the chess pieces go back in the same box".I would like to suggest an offshoot to that expression;

It doesn't matter who was pining for which bird as long as at the end of day,the best one sits proudly in an IAF hangar!!!


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## sancho

Screambowl said:


> But would Rafale be upgraded with thrust vectoring?? and what would be the cost per unit after this up-gradation?



It is reported that TVC could be a future upgrade for the M88 engines, just like French companies are already working with Indian counterparts on TVC for Kaveri engine. We will see it in future, but at the moment I would prefer if MoD funds HMS, Helina and Sudarshan integration into Rafale. If Kaveri - Snecma engine could be integrated into Rafale, I would defenitely hope that we would integrate it at least in our versions and would add CFTs too (higher thrust, less drag, more free weapon stations and a lower RCS).

Btw:



> *UPDATE 4-French Rafale favoured for multi-billion dollar India jet deal*
> 
> ..."The Rafale gives a huge combat edge to our air force given the situation in our region," said former Indian air force chief Fali Homi Major.
> 
> "We cannot say what kind of conflict situation there would be in the region 20 years hence." ...



http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/4-french-rafale-favoured-multi-162541097.html

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## Hello_10

KRAIT said:


> Agree with you. But there are many misconception about Rafale and many underrate it just coz of few reason. Its perfect for india as we already have infrastructure for Mirage-2000 , its A2G capability is advanced (importance of which we felt in kargil), its AESA radar is almost ready. *There is also talk of new feature to reduce radar crossection. Rafale is also closer to 5th gen. fighter.*



I don&#8217;t talk much about avionics/ design etcs as we are not in this profession but a logical argument says, if IAF is happy with paying $3.9bn to upgrade their 51 Mirage2000 to 2000-5mk2 standard, and its manufacturers now closed its production lines when they started producing Rafale with a claim that Rafale is more capable for a2b operations with a very capable a2a role also than mirage2000-5 mk2, then obviously Rafale is worth paying $100 each + establishing infrastructure cost also 

I have read on few places that even if F35 is a complete 5th gen stealth aircraft, Rafale will be able to dodge its all the missiles but if Rafale will have got F35 on its target, F35/ JSF is not capable enough to dodge any missile of Rafale (or of SU35/ SU30MKI also). IAF is not only negotiating for stealth features with Rafale, similar to SU35BM, but also Rafale is already capable enough to deal with of any 5th gen aircrafts even in a2a combat while Rafale is said to be the best Multi Role Aircraft, primarily for a2g operations 

see the condition of the US's best JSF, the 5th gen aircraft, and Australian scientists finally selected Rafale with JSF/F35 over rest of the aircrafts. *Rafale is already put in the category of US's latest and best 5th gen aircraft F35/ JSF *



> *Scientists warned defence department against Joint Strike Fighter*
> 
> AN internal Defence study warned that the new Joint Strike Fighter would be a high-risk venture for Australia, admitting that the plane had weaknesses, including poor engine thrust that made it difficult to dodge missiles.
> 
> Despite these criticisms, the study recommended narrowing Australia's choice of a new fighter jet to only three: the JSF, the American F-15E and the French *Rafale*.
> Cookies must be enabled | The Australian

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## Yeti

Hello_10 said:


> I dont talk much about avionics/ design etcs as we are not in this profession but a logical argument says, if IAF is happy with paying $3.9bn to upgrade their 51 Mirage2000 to 2000-5mk2 standard, and its manufacturers now closed its production lines when they started producing Rafale with a claim that Rafale is more capable for a2b operations with a very capable a2a role also than mirage2000-5 mk2, then obviously Rafale is worth paying $100 each + establishing infrastructure cost also
> 
> I have read on few places that even if F35 is a complete 5th gen stealth aircraft, Rafale will be able to dodge its all the missiles but if Rafale will have got F35 on its target, F35/ JSF is not capable enough to dodge any missile of Rafale (or of SU35/ SU30MKI also). IAF is not only negotiating for stealth features with Rafale, similar to SU35BM, but also Rafale is already capable enough to deal with of any 5th gen aircrafts even in a2a combat while Rafale is said to be the best Multi Role Aircraft, primarily for a2g operations
> 
> see the condition of the US's best JSF, the 5th gen aircraft, and Australian scientists finally selected Rafale with JSF/F35 over rest of the aircrafts. Rafale is already put in the category of US's latest and best F35/ JSF




Where you get the sum of $3.9bn for the Mirage upgrade?

---------- Post added at 06:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:27 PM ----------

You know missiles and other goodies is always additional costs


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## prabhakar




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## Yeti

The upgrades on the Mirage combat jets include a night vision goggle-compatible glass cockpit, advanced navigational systems, advanced Identification Friend or Foe (IFF) system, advanced multi-mode multi-layered radar, fully integrated electronic warfare suite and advanced beyond visual range (BVR) capability. The weapon integration includes 450 MICA interception and aerial combat missiles. Thales and another French firm, MBDA, will be the weapons systems integrator and missiles supplier respectively.




In India, there has been a divided opinion between the Defence Ministry and IAF regarding the Mirage-2000 upgrade since the deal is high-priced. Apparently, with the inclusion of the new weapons costing over $ 700 million (MBDA-made Mica air-to-air missiles) that will re-arm the aircraft and another* $ 500 million for new facilities *at Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) will make it the costliest fighter upgrade by India.



US$2.4 billion Indian Mirage 2000 upgrade deal* will have to plough back 30% of the contract value *as offsets into Indian companies. India&#8217;s Tata industrial group will be the main beneficiary of this offsets program.

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## anathema

sancho said:


> Think about the claims about HAL building a new facility just to upgrade Mirage 2000s, which didn't make sense at all unless,...
> 
> ...these would be used for the licence production of Rafale too! It eases HALs logistics, several principles of the production should be similar anyway, since Rafale was based on the Mirage 2000 development and experience. Samtel will benefit a lot from both as well, since they should get the biggest offset parts next to HAL.
> 
> .



Sancho - Amen to that !! 

I just hope that we get lots of benefit from France for our own LCA. We will be needing every ounce of it. Also hope that Kaveri fructifies !! 

It will be interesting to see if there is any MKI'zation of Rafale. Especially in terms of integrating our own homegrown missiles OR Python likewise. Also i hope MoD can arm twist France into incorporating a HMS for Rafale - that i believe is a Rafale disadvantage.

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## Screambowl

sancho said:


> It is reported that TVC could be a future upgrade for the M88 engines, just like French companies are already working with Indian counterparts on TVC for Kaveri engine. We will see it in future, but at the moment I would prefer if MoD funds HMS, Helina and Sudarshan integration into Rafale. If Kaveri - Snecma engine could be integrated into Rafale, I would defenitely hope that we would integrate it at least in our versions and would add CFTs too (higher thrust, less drag, more free weapon stations and a lower RCS).
> 
> Btw:
> 
> 
> 
> UPDATE 4-French Rafale favoured for multi-billion dollar India jet deal - Yahoo! Finance UK




I don't think Cost Factor as being the major fact of selection comes into play. It is indeed a political decision. I hope for a better future of Rafale in IAF with the best upgrades available. 

India need to buy some U-boot now.


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## Yeti

This deal will also help our private defence firms in expanding and boosting our domestic industry


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## Hello_10

Ambitious.Asian said:


> this is our choice



Thats how its share jumped today. No one can stop Rafale now, either with their deal with Brazil, UAE or many other customers who were just waiting for MMRCA result

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## jha

Brits have become restless...

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## Yeti

The Thales-samtel joint venture :



Samtel poised to take off with air force fighter fleet


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## rockstarIN

well, the wait ends here for the winner. Now waiting to fore LCA LSP-7 to take off.


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## laltaputu

15 Factors for the Dassault Rafale wins MMRCA

1.IAF's love for Mirrage 2000 which is a very potent platform.

2.Infrastructure created for over 100 mirages in the 80's can be used now.

3.Upgrade of Mirrage 2000 to Mirrage 2000-5 MK2 standard which will be a similarity with Rafale

4. The 1 billion dollar invested in MICA missile.

5.Dassault Rafale was build from ground up tp be a omirole or multirole platform which the IAF wants

6.SPECTRA + AESA in 2012 (Typhoons AESA 2015) + AASM (proved in Libya)

7.Dual sit version useful for training and more useful for ground attack(twin seater of typhoon is only a trainer without any advantage)

8.Dassault Rafale is cheaper than typhoon.

9.French a reliable supplier not sanctioning india after 1998.

10.All components from one country no dealing with 4 countries.

11.Dassault Rafale has almost all french components while Typhoon has some american components susceptible to sanctions.

12.Full transfer of technology including source code.

13.Today in European crisis France can give us more political leverage than UK+Germany,italy and spain are in deep crisis.

14.Marine version present which makes it attractive for Indian Navy.

15.Hidden deals in STRATEGIC , ECONOMICAL and IINDIGENOUS DEVELOPMENT(KAVERI,MCA,SSN,SSBN etc) arena.

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## Yeti

jha said:


> Brits have become restless...




lol now they will talk about the Aid they give us sore losers

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## laltaputu

Engine and payload comparison between Dassault Rafale and Eurofighter Typhoon 
Dassault Rafale

Empty weight: 9,500 kg
Loaded weight: 14,016 kg
Max. takeoff weight: 24,500 kg
Powerplant: 2 × Snecma M88-2 turbofans 
Dry thrust: 50.04 kN (11,250 lbf) each
Thrust with afterburner: 75.62 kN (17,000 lbf) each
Fuel capacity: 4,700 kg (10,000 lb) internal
Payload:9,500 kg
Thrust/weight: 1.10 (100% fuel, 2 EM A2A missile, 2 IR A2A missile)

Eurofighter Typhoon

Empty weight: 11,150 kg
Loaded weight: 16,000 kg
Max. takeoff weight: 23,500 kg
Powerplant: 2 × Eurojet EJ200 afterburning turbofan 
Dry thrust: 60 kN (13,000 lbf) each
Thrust with afterburner: 89 kN (20,000 lbf) each
Fuel capacity: 4,500 kg (9,900 lb) internal
Thrust/weight: 1.15(clean)
Payload:7,500 kg

so you can see a TOW of Dassault Rafale 1.10 (100% fuel, 2 EM A2A missile, 2 IR A2A missile) is much better than 1.15 (clean ) of Eurofighter Typhoon

Dassault Rafale is 

1.Lighter(so a 75.62 kN engine is enough) but have more Max. takeoff weight than Typhoon.
2.Carry more fuel.
3.Carry more payload
4. Dassault Rafale has a 30mm gun as to 27 mm of Eurofighter Typhoon.


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## Kazhugu

sancho must be the happiest person around here...

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## anathema

jha said:


> Brits have become restless...



What are they upto ?


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## Hello_10

Yeti said:


> Where you get the sum of $3.9bn for the Mirage upgrade?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ---------- Post added at 06:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:27 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You know missiles and other goodies is always additional costs
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


here it is:-



> Taking into account $1 billion for new weapons and another $500 million for new facilities at Bangalore-based Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) for the upgrade, the cost could rise to *$3.9 billion*, the officials said.
> 
> Defence brass split over French Mirage upgrade deal - The Economic Times



Yes I know that. please check my last few posts, thats why I said IAF may now buy 80 Mig35 for around $4.5bn with loaded with missiles also for price of $55mil each, while India signed deal for 29 Mig29k for just $40mil each in 2010, if I remember

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## sancho

anathema said:


> Sancho - Amen to that !!
> 
> I just hope that we get lots of benefit from France for our own LCA. We will be needing every ounce of it. Also hope that Kaveri fructifies !!
> 
> It will be interesting to see if there is any MKI'zation of Rafale. Especially in terms of integrating our own homegrown missiles OR Python likewise. Also i hope MoD can arm twist France into incorporating a HMS for Rafale - that i believe is a Rafale disadvantage.



Python V will not come, because the combination of SPECTRA, FSO and MICA IR gives a huge advantage in A2A combats, especially in BVR. Maybe IAF will reject the Damocles pod and integrate the Litening instead, which it already uses on most types in the fleet. Another Israeli part that could be added is the SPICE PGM and a good hint for this will be the selection of IAF for a new PGM for the upgraded M2Ks in the 500 & 1000Kg class. Sagem has proposed AASM, while Rafael has proposed SPICE and Greece evaluated the same and prefered the Israeli versions. So IF IAF also prefers SPICE, they might add it to Rafale as well.

HMS will come for sure, because it was offered in all competitions the only question is, will it be the Topsight varient that Samtel already produces or will there be a new development. The French prefered another Helmet, but didn't wanted to fund the development so far.

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## jackyy

mirage deal:4.5 billion dollars
rafale deal:15 billion +
also Submarine deals

french have got more than enough, nearly 25 billion dollar arms deals


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## Yeti

Hello_10 said:


> here it is:-
> 
> 
> 
> Yes I know that. thats why I said IAF may now buy 80 Mig35 for $4.5bn with loaded with missiles also for price of $55mil each, while India signed deal for 29 Mig29k for just $40mil each in 2010, if I remember





That can also be factored in for the MRCA on why the price was high for the upgrade but 30% of the cost will be put back to Indian companies.

---------- Post added at 06:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:54 PM ----------




jackyy said:


> mirage deal:4.5 billion dollars
> rafale deal:15 billion +
> also Submarine deals
> 
> french have got more than enough, nearly 25 billion dollar arms deals





Not to forget the Nuke deal


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## KRAIT

^^ Nice summary.


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## Hello_10

Kazhugu said:


> sancho must be the happiest person around here...



I told him, if IAF didnt buy Mig35 but still wants to go for MMRCA then it means for Rafale only. IAF was even considering Mirage2000-5 mk2 only for MMRCA till 2007, so if they didnt buy Mig35 then if they could afford to pay twice price than Mig35 then it must be Rafale only. Ask Sancho I told him how IAF think


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## prabhakar

Yeti said:


> lol now they will talk about the Aid they give us sore losers



these mofos had looted all of us for so many years and now talking ****..

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## Yeti

Rafale : les considrations techniques l'ont emport - LeMonde.fr


French article gives it's perspective on the deal (please click translate)

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## Unbeliever

You should have taken the Eurofighter. The french plane will probably auto-surrender on sight of a powerful enemy plane 

We would have thrown in extending warranty and everything... ;(





/joke


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## Yeti

prabhakar said:


> these mofos had looted all of us for so many years and now talking ****..




Funny thing is that countries like France, Sweden give aid also but they don't cry about it like the Brits.

The Queen still has our Koor-I-Noor Diamond looting english will never change.

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## sancho

Screambowl said:


> I don't think Cost Factor as being the major fact of selection comes into play. It is indeed a political decision. I hope for a better future of Rafale in IAF with the best upgrades available.
> 
> India need to buy some U-boot now.



Political? Not at all, if politics had played a role we would have gone with a US fighter or now with the EF and I'm very happy that this wasn't the case!



Kazhugu said:


> sancho must be the happiest person around here...



Not sure if I am the happiest, but I am happy for sure that IAF gets the best fighter that fits to their requirements and to IAF fleet. That was always the main reason why I supported Rafale!



Hello_10 said:


> I told him, if IAF didnt buy Mig35 but still wants to go for MMRCA then it means for Rafale only. IAF was even considering Mirage2000-5 mk2 only for MMRCA till 2007, so if they didnt buy Mig35 then if they could afford to pay twice price than Mig35 then it must be Rafale only. Ask Sancho I told him how IAF think



Yes you said so, but that doesn't mean you reasons are correct, because the Mig (no matter if 29 SMT nor 35) was never a real choice.

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## praveen007

how many of you like this colour sceme of Rafale.
.


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## anathema

praveen007 said:


> how many of you like this colour sceme of Rafale.
> .



*Accchhhh Thhhooooo*....Why the fetish with Japanese manga ? I prefer all black if there is color scheme..But in the end we will be seeing these fighters in Tipnis Grey..

---------- Post added at 02:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:09 PM ----------

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## jha

anathema said:


> What are they upto ?


 

The usual Aid, Corruption, Clean Water , Sanitation.... 
Thought of replying back but WTH who gives a flying f*cK about what they say these days...

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## anathema

jha said:


> The usual Aid, Corruption, Clean Water , Sanitation....
> Thought of replying back but WTH who gives a *flying f*cK about what they say these days*...



 Amen to That !!!


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## Yeti

That pic in pink is wrong on so many levels lol


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## praveen007

Yeti said:


> Rafale : les considrations techniques l'ont emport - LeMonde.fr
> 
> 
> French article gives it's perspective on the deal (please click translate)


.
.
Here is the link to transleted article.
.
*Google Translate*

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## Hello_10

sancho said:


> *Yes you said so, but that doesn't mean you reasons are correct, because the Mig (no matter if 29 SMT nor 35) was never a real choice.*



Mig35 with AESA radar was as real choice for less than $50mil price, as their order for 45 Mig29k is now a reality for their new INS Vikramaditya and IAC-1. But the thing changed when IAF got ready to pay twice than Mig35 for the best available option for multi role operations, the best A2G operation that can not be expected from any other existing aircraft, and as the same aircraft is capable enough to deal with Su27/ J11, Su30K etc in air also, now we can see the result, the Rafale............. 

the reason why I never hesitated to accept that if not Mig35 then it simply means IAF wants Rafale, If they can pay twice price for an aircraft to that of Mig35, and yes they can

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## Bl[i]tZ

jha said:


> The usual Aid, Corruption, Clean Water , Sanitation....
> Thought of replying back but WTH who gives a flying f*cK about what they say these days...



The tantrums of these big countries are beyond comprehension.

1. In came of American, there Ambassador resigned and LM and Boeing huff-puffed in the US Congress. They toned down soon after realizing that there are other contracts as well. There was a seminar recently at GWU where they were still asking why did India make a technical choice and not honor the strategic partnership with US. The Indian on the panel bombarded them that why did US offer a 1970s airframe, with very little ToT while the Europeans basically put ToT as an open ended call. Why judge this partnership on 1 deal given we've already bought equipment worth $8 billion. The Americans let go then.

2. The Brits are hurt. Something that will be more tragic is the invasion of Falkan Islands by Argentina. Very racist comments, similar to the high IQ members on this forum.  I didn't respond as well.

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## prabhakar

Major technology transfers' in India fighter deal: Sarkozy

PARIS: President Nicolas Sarkozy said on Tuesday that a deal for French firm Dassault to sell Rafale fighter jets to India would include significant transfers of technology. 

Hailing the deal, Sarkozy also said the French state would back Dassault in final talks on the details of the agreement. 

"The negotiation of the contract will begin very soon with the full support of French authorities. It will include major transfers of technology guaranteed by the French state," he said. 

"France welcomes the Indian government's decision to chose a French plane and to enter into exclusive negotiations with Dassault," Sarkozy said. 

"This announcement comes following a competition that was at a very high level, was fair and transparent and which opposed two European finalists." He said the Rafale was chosen "thanks to the competitiveness of the global cost of the aircraft over its lifetime." 

French and Indian officials said Tuesday that Dassault had beaten the Eurofighter consortium for the right to enter final exclusive talks with India on providing 126 Rafale fighter jets. 

The estimated $12 billion (nine billion euro) contract, the first sale of the multi-role Rafales to a foreign buyer -- gave a much-needed boost to the Rafale programme.

Major technology transfers' in India fighter deal: Sarkozy - The Economic Times

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## Yeti

Hello_10 said:


> Mig35 with AESA radar was as real choice for less than $50mil price, as their order for 45 Mig29k is now a reality for their new INS Vikramaditya and IAC-1. But the thing changed when IAF got ready to pay twice than Mig35 for the best available option for multi role operations, the best A2G operation that can not be expected from any other existing aircraft, Aad as the same aircraft is capable enough to deal with Su27/ J11, Su30K etc in air also, now we can see the result, Rafale.............
> 
> the reason why I never hesitated to accept that if not Mig35 then it simply means IAF wants Rafale.





$50 million a pop is just a estimate it is no guarantee and we all know with Russia and it's price increases once contracts have been signed.


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## Nirvana

praveen007 said:


> how many of you like this colour sceme of Rafale.
> .



If we have Lady Pilots !! give this color Scheme to them


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## Hello_10

Yeti said:


> $50 million a pop is just a estimate it is no guarantee and we all know with Russia and it's price increases once contracts have been signed.



Now don&#8217;t talk about price increase, didn&#8217;t price of six French Scorpion submarines increased from $1.9bn to over $5bn right now, while still it is not in production line? And if Mig29k, a variant of Mig35/ Mig29VOT, is already being delivered and we expect 9 of them to be delivered this year only, the Mig29Ks which are signed for just $40mil each, then why worry too much? 

I hope IAF may now go for 80 Mig35 for just around $4.5bn with loaded with missiles also, as per the latest news. as, if IN wants 40 Rafale for the price of $4bn for IAC-2 then its good. but if IAF will already have 126 Rafale with 51 Mirage2000-5 mk2 also, it isnt worth paying $8bn again for same type of 80 Rafale. 80 more Mig35 for just $4.5bn may form back boon for IAF with other 68 Mig29SMT which may be delivered from even 2013 onwards as production line of Mig29k is running right now

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## prabhakar

Dassault Chosen to Bid on $10 Billion Indian Military Contract

PARIS &#8212; India had selected Dassault Aviation of France as its preferred bidder in a $10 billion contest to supply its air force with a new fleet of advanced combat aircraft, the French government said Tuesday. Dassault edged out a European consortium for the coveted contract with one of the world&#8217;s biggest arms importers.

Dassault emerged as the lowest bidder in the final round, with its offer of 126 Rafale multi-role fighters undercutting a competing offer from Eurofighter, a consortium of European companies led by European Aeronautic Defense & Space, according to industry officials who asked not to be named because the bids were confidential.

The Indian Defense Ministry will now enter into exclusive talks with Dassault with an eye to finalizing an agreement later this year &#8212; although some analysts predicted Eurofighter might still return to New Delhi with a revised proposal.

Nonetheless, France's beleagured president, Nicolas Sarkozy, touted the news as a victory for French industry. Mr. Sarkozy, who faces an uphill battle for re-election in May, has pushed hard to secure contracts for French companies in India, particularly in strategic sectors such as aerospace and energy.

In a statement, Mr. Sarkozy said that Dassault&#8217;s bid would receive the &#8220;full support&#8221; of his government, adding that a deal would include &#8220;significant transfers of technology guaranteed by the French state.&#8221;

Under Indian rules, foreign defense manufacturers have to &#8220;offset,&#8221; or buy from local suppliers or joint-venture partners, components and services worth 30 percent of the total cost of its contract. According to the terms of Dassault&#8217;s bid, the first 18 aircraft will be built solely by the French manufacturer, with the rest to be built in partnership with an Indian company.

If signed, the contract with India would be Dassault&#8217;s first export sale for the Rafale, which has been in service with the French military for more than a decade.

If signed, the contract with India would be Dassault's first export sale for the Rafale, which has been in service with the French military for more than a decade.

''It would be a wonderful contract to win,'' said Alexandra Ashbourne, an aerospace and defense industry consultant in London. ''Until now, Rafale has sort of an embarassment for Dassault, kind of a white elephant.''

Analysts stressed that Dassault&#8217;s selection marked the beginning of what could still be an arduous negotiation process. Defense procurement has typically been a long, slow process in India and the country continues to use decades-old technology in many parts of its armed forces.

&#8220;This is by no means the end of the game,&#8221; said Howard Wheeldon, senior strategist at BGC Parners, a London brokerage. &#8220;This is only the beginning of the next stage of the competition.&#8221;

Eurofighter, meanwhile, made clear Tuesday that it was not ready to concede defeat.

&#8220;Based on the Indian government feedback, we will now carefully analyze and evaluate this situation together with our European partners and their respective governments,&#8221; said Theodor Benien, a spokesman for Cassidian, the EADS division responsible for the Eurofighter project.

The Indian authorities have said from the start that they would award the contract to the lowest-price bidder. In April, the country narrowed its choices to the Eurofighter Typhoon and the Rafale, ruling out planes by the American manufacturers Boeing and Lockheed Martin and two other contenders from Russia and Sweden. That decision upset officials in Washington, who had expected that at least one of the American companies would make it to the final round.

India already uses French-built Mirage fighter jets, but this order is meant to replace an aging fleet of Russian-made jets. The deal was watched with great interest around the world because it is one of the largest single defense procurements ever. Also, it is seen as an indication of Indian preferences because the country is expected to spend $50 billion to $80 billion on defense equipment in the next five years.

Price has probably become even more of a concern for India since last year, because the government&#8217;s fiscal deficit is expected to be much bigger than earlier projected and the rupee fell sharply against the dollar and the euro at the end of last year, though it has recovered some of that lost ground in recent weeks.

Vikas Bajaj contributed reporting from Mumbai.


http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/01/business/global/dassault-chosen-to-bid-on-10-billion-indian-military-contract.html

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## Shaurya

praveen007 said:


> how many of you like this colour sceme of Rafale.
> .



give this to rahul gandhi , the only gay of India.. rahul betiya wil be very happy

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## Soumya_india

Congrates every indian and rafale suporters...speacially Spark,sancho..
MMRCA is final...
Now for the indian point of view next big one will be Agni 5....

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## Yeti

Hello_10 said:


> Now don&#8217;t talk about price increase, didn&#8217;t price of six French Scorpion submarines increased from $1.9bn to over $5bn right now, while still it is not in production line? And if Mig29k, a variant of Mig35/ Mig29VOT, is already being delivered and we expect 9 of them to be delivered this year only, then why worry too much?
> 
> I hope IAF may now go for 80 Mig35 for just around $4.5bn with loaded with missiles also, as per the latest news. as, if IN wants 40 Rafale for the price of $4bn for IAC-2 then its good. but if IAF will already have 126 Rafale with 51 Mirage2000-5 mk2 also, it isnt worth paying $8bn again for same type of 80 Rafale. 80 more Mig35 for just $4.5bn may form back boon for IAF with other 68 Mig29SMT which may be delivered from even 2013 onwards as production line of Mig29k is running right now





No way we dont want Mig 35's buddy what for? the Mig 35 is only a demo at the moment it's not even in production there is no set rule that the price won't increase if we did pick it and fitted it with the goodies we wanted.


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## Shaurya

prabhakar said:


> these mofos had looted all of us for so many years and now talking ****..



they are just returning our money back ,so no need to cry, plus they are already bankcrupt and it seems nobody hires them nowadays...  and who will with their weird accent


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## Yeti

*Disadvantages of the Mig 35*


Final configuration not settled
AESA radar still in development
Moderately capable IRST
Weapons offered already in IAF
inventory
Horrendous maintenance requirement
High life cycle costs
Modest political benefits


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## sancho

> *MMRCA, The mother of all deals goes to the Rafale*
> 
> As promised by the Indian authorities, the MMRCA winner announcement has been made before the end of January. Today, January 31, 2012...



Rafale News: MMRCA, The mother of all deals goes to the Rafale


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## StrikeForce

Yeti said:


> Funny thing is that countries like France, Sweden give aid also but they don't cry about it like the Brits.
> 
> The Queen still has our Koor-I-Noor Diamond looting english will never change.



Its in London Museum, And they shamelessly charging us 16 pounds to see them. Their museum is full of loots across the globe.

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## Yeti

StrikeForce said:


> Its in London Museum, And they shamelessly charging us 16 pounds to see them. Their museum is full of loots across the globe.




That diamond has a curse let them keep it lol

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## Screambowl

RIAT 2011 Rafale French AirForce - YouTube


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## Hello_10

sancho said:


> Rafale News: MMRCA, The mother of all deals goes to the Rafale



Sancho, I dont know how old you but Im continuously reading about this MMRCA for last 4-5 years. Long time before, around 2.5 years before, when US&#8217;s players jumped in this MMRCA, the very first thing happened was, Rafale was kicked out from this contest without even evaluation, but through the diplomatic efforts. But IAF then interfered and Rafale again backed after just 2-3 months and now Rafale has won the contest.............. for the diplomatic tigers to win this MMRCA deal, for what US had bet its every credibility to put their beloved Super Hornet for MMRCA, by the very first day it had been clear to me since that incident that if they want this MMRCA deal then they had to deal with Rafale only . too much lobbying was done by US's diplomats during last over 2 years to get this MMRCA but they couldn't

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## Jon Snow

there seems to be some confusion about another 80 fighters- seems that the iaf now wants 200 mrca but the mod doesnt have enough money for 200 rafales so they are looking for a cheaper machine to fill in numbers.
If this is indeed the case then the mig 35 seems perfect - damn cheap but has decent AESA radar and cool features like 3D TVC.

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## jackyy

Jon Snow said:


> there seems to be some confusion about another 80 fighters- seems that the iaf now wants 200 mrca but the mod doesnt have enough money for 200 rafales so they are looking for a cheaper machine to fill in numbers.
> If this is indeed the case then the mig 35 seems perfect - damn cheap but has decent AESA radar and cool features like 3D TVC.



for rest of the 80 fighters, eliminated candidates will be chosen and i bet this is the chance for hornets or f-35 due to pressure by usa


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## CallsignAlzaeem

Screambowl said:


> RIAT 2011 Rafale French AirForce - YouTube



I was there that day and i can say that with confidence that Rafale's performance out did all,Good choice made by India.Hope its not going to be a part of crash party anytime soon,Love this bird.

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## blackops

For those 80 birds i would go with the f18 sh a freat bird can also be used by our navy and if the price of f35 is in our range then we should go for it ( but i diubt about it as we may be having too many 5 gen platforms to operate ) and as said before mig 35 is a great option too and cheap with aesa 3d tvc the infra is set for it the pilots are well aware if it the only thing is the design if the burd hasent changed much from the mig 29


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## Abingdonboy

Jon Snow said:


> there seems to be some confusion about another 80 fighters- seems that the iaf now wants 200 mrca but the mod doesnt have enough money for 200 rafales so they are looking for a cheaper machine to fill in numbers.
> If this is indeed the case then the mig 35 seems perfect - damn cheap but has decent AESA radar and cool features like 3D TVC.



I don't think the hang up on 200 MMRCA is cost but political. The GoI/MoD wants to by some more friends. As such SH/EF are maybes, I don't think the MoD are stupid enough to go for Mig-35 and don't really need much closer ties with them given the FGFA/MRTA alone are ~$40 BN in total by themselves.




IAF of the future is surely going to on of the most top-heavy AFs in the world, not nessercarily a bad thing.


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## Mosamania

Congrats to India. What seemed to be an endless saga finally ends.

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## Solar Flare

Congrats to everyone who was interested in MMRCA.


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## sancho

Hello_10 said:


> Sancho, I dont know how old you but Im continuously reading about this MMRCA for last 4-5 years. Long time before, around 2.5 years before, when US&#8217;s players jumped in this MMRCA, the very first thing happened was, Rafale was kicked out from this contest without even evaluation, but through the diplomatic efforts. But IAF then interfered and Rafale again backed after just 2-3 months and now Rafale has won the contest.............. for the diplomatic tigers to win this MMRCA deal, for what US had bet its every credibility to put their beloved Super Hornet for MMRCA, by the very first day it had been clear to me since that incident that if they want this MMRCA deal then they had to deal with Rafale only . too much lobbying was done by US's diplomats during last over 2 years to get this MMRCA but they couldn't



Too old man, too old and I have to disagree with again!  Rafale was never kicked out like you said, because there was never any official statement on that from GoI, MoD or even IAF. All we heared were a report "placed" in the news quoting an "unnamed source". There was not even any statement send to Dassault nor to French government, btw the wiki leakes reports from Brazil even confirms that the US had no involvement in that, because they didn't had a clue about these news either wanted to get more infos about it.
When you count all this together, you have to realise that it was the other way around and Indian government mostlikely put pressure on the French to get more access on technical details they wanted to evaluate.
Similarly, the government of UAE is constantly feeding the news with false infos about Rafale not beeing technically good enough (although they agreed to nearly all specs that the French forces now will have), that they will evaluate F16s, F18SH, F15s and the EF (allthough none of them will buy back the M2K-9s and only the EF might be able to carry the Black Shaheen cruise missiles). The only reason for such false news is, increase the public pressure on the manufacturer or the manufacturing country and get more advantages. We might get what we wanted before the trials, the UAE defenitely get more side advantages which they wanted.
Btw, the selection of Rafale in India now gives France and Dassault to turn it around and put pressure on the UAE, since they are not dependent on sales anymore. If the UAE wants to play games, they can play it now as well, because at the end both sides knows that the UAE will buy Rafales anyway.

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## Yeti

Mods can we have a sticky now on Rafale?


As the MRCA tender looks like its over and now a new chapter to start

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## Mosamania

Personally. I think India should not have gone after Rafale. Rafale already experiences huge difficulties in introducing new modifications. Meaning although it is a very capable jet "NOW" however in the future its prospects are dim. France couldn't complete the UAE deal because they "Can't" and I repeat "Can't" make the upgrading the UAE required. 

Now and up to about 2022 it will remain a beat in the sky but not much after that. And if india is buying a plane it is only seeking to induct for 10 years then excuse me but this is counter-productive and a waste of cash if you ask me.


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## peep

Yeti said:


> That diamond has a curse let them keep it lol



what is that curse ? 



Mosamania said:


> Personally. I think India should not have gone after Rafale. Rafale already experiences huge difficulties in introducing new modifications. Meaning although it is a very capable jet "NOW" however in the future its prospects are dim. France couldn't complete the UAE deal because they "Can't" and I repeat "Can't" make the upgrading the UAE required.
> 
> Now and up to about 2022 it will remain a beat in the sky but not much after that. And if india is buying a plane it is only seeking to induct for 10 years then excuse me but this is counter-productive and a waste of cash if you ask me.



Dont beat around the bush. Just tell us what we should have done. Now plz dont say EFT for god's sake.

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## Hello_10

sancho said:


> Too old man, too old and I have to disagree with again!  *Rafale was never kicked out like you said, because there was never any "official" statement on that from GoI, MoD or even IAF.* All we heared were a report "placed" in the news quoting an *"unnamed source"*. There was not even any statement send to Dassault nor to French government, btw the *wiki leakes reports from Brazil even confirms that the US had no involvement in that*, because they didn't had a clue about these news either wanted to get more infos about it.
> When you count all this together, you have to realise that it was the other way around and Indian government mostlikely put pressure on the French to get more access on technical details they wanted to evaluate.
> Similarly, the government of UAE is constantly feeding the news with false infos about Rafale not beeing technically good enough (although they agreed to nearly all specs that the French forces now will have), that they will evaluate F16s, F18SH, F15s and the EF (allthough none of them will buy back the M2K-9s and only the EF might be able to carry the Black Shaheen cruise missiles). The only reason for such false news is, increase the public pressure on the manufacturer or the manufacturing country and get more advantages. We might get what we wanted before the trials, the UAE defenitely get more side advantages which they wanted.
> Btw, the selection of Rafale in India now gives France and Dassault to turn it around and put pressure on the UAE, since they are not dependent on sales anymore. If the UAE wants to play games, they can play it now as well, because at the end both sides knows that the UAE will buy Rafales anyway.



Most of the time you talk about those small technical terms which isn&#8217;t needed neither you are qualified to talk about them, but even little common sense is enough to say &#8216;what should be&#8217;, or, &#8216;how it looks like&#8217;. Read this news and search on net, it happened sometimes in early 2009 and Rafale again backed after 2-3 months and now it has won this MMRCA deal&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.....



> The French Rafale twin-engine multi-role fighter has been knocked off a $10-billion contract for 126 combat aircraft for the Indian Air Force. One of six contenders, Rafale was *'officially'* rejected by the *'Ministry' of Defence *for what an official called the failure to meet qualitative requirements of the contract.
> 
> http://www.indianexpress.com/news/french-rafael-knocked-off-10-billion-race-for-iaf-fighter/447745/





> Thursday, May 5, 2011
> 
> This is also true for Brazil : The rejection of the Gripen NG and Super Hornet in India is a big setback for Saab and Boeing and one more argument in favor of the Rafale in the FX-2 contest when it will restart. *We should not forget that the US ambassador in Brazil was thinking of using the (bogus) Rafale elimination in India, back in 2009, in order to discredit the French plane (as revealed by Wikileaks).* The situation is clearly reversed now that the Rafale has received its "approved by the IAF" stamp.
> 
> Rafale News: MMRCA, The Indian shortlist shock wave



And after reading this, you would promise not to continue making unnecessary arguments to me. You aren&#8217;t the man who handled the entire issue related to MMRCA, nor me, but if someone says something then it doesn&#8217;t mean you have to keep answering. Search net, get to know how politics happened on this deal, you will get too many ideas. Now talk to others. thanks


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## Mosamania

Whatever it is I am sure India's defense ministry is not staffed by idiots to make the wrong choice. Now I have to sink into 31 pages in the Arabic Defense forum over this.... This Typhoon vs Rafale is seriously getting old x(

God help me it is going to be a forum warzone there....

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## sancho

Mosamania said:


> Personally. I think India should not have gone after Rafale. Rafale already experiences huge difficulties in introducing new modifications. Meaning although it is a very capable jet "NOW" however in the future its prospects are dim. France couldn't complete the UAE deal because they "Can't" and I repeat "Can't" make the upgrading the UAE required.
> 
> Now and up to about 2022 it will remain a beat in the sky but not much after that. And if india is buying a plane it is only seeking to induct for 10 years then excuse me but this is counter-productive and a waste of cash if you ask me.





Rafale F3+

- upgraded engine
- new developed radar
- upgraded MAWS
- upgrades SPECTRA EWS
- upgraded FSO
- upgraded weapon package


Upgrades till 2020

- upgrade for IRST already going on
- upgrade for Damocles pod already going on
- upgrade for AESA radar and SPECTRA with GaN modules, already going on
- upgrade of the weapon package with AASM 125, Brimstone or maybe Indian weapons
- 90kN engine version developed nearly a decade ago, can be integrated if a customer is ready to pay for it (UAE didn't wanted to pay alone and not takes the normal 75kN engine)
- HMS developed and tested nearly a decade ago, waiting for a customer to fund integration
- CFTs developed and tested nearly a decade ago, waiting for a customer to fund integration


Upgrades beyond 2020

- stealth demonstrator (airframe shapings, weapon pods, new coatings) already funded to start development
- SATCOM data links aimed to link Rafale in future with nEUROn UCAV in combined strike attacks
- TVC
- AESA side arrays

So no, they are not struggeling to upgrade the fighter, not in the past, not in present and not in future too, but you just might have confused it with the EF.

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## Mosamania

sancho said:


> Rafale F3+
> 
> - upgraded engine
> - new developed radar
> - upgraded MAWS
> - upgrades SPECTRA EWS
> - upgraded FSO
> - upgraded weapon package
> 
> - upgrade for IRST already going on
> - upgrade for Damocles pod already going on
> - upgrade for AESA radar and SPECTRA with GaN modules, already going on
> - upgrade of the weapon package with AASM 125, Brimstone or maybe Indian weapons
> 
> - stealth demonstrator (airframe shapings, weapon pods, new coatings) already funded to start development
> - SATCOM data links aimed to link Rafale in future with nEUROn UCAV in combined strike attacks
> - 90kN engine version developed nearly a decade ago, can be integrated if a customer is ready to pay for it (UAE didn't wanted to pay alone and not takes the normal 75kN engine)
> - HMS developed and tested nearly a decade ago, waiting for a customer to fund integration
> - CFTs developed and tested nearly a decade ago, waiting for a customer to fund integration
> 
> So no, they are not struggeling to upgrade the fighter, not in the past, not in present and not in future too, but you just might have confused it with the EF.



Please i don't want to start a Rafale vs Typhoon thing again. Defense forum all over the world of all languages have turned these two aircrafts into a fukcing religion man.


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## KRAIT

sancho said:


> Rafale F3+
> 
> - upgraded engine
> - new developed radar
> - upgraded MAWS
> - upgrades SPECTRA EWS
> - upgraded FSO
> - upgraded weapon package
> 
> - upgrade for IRST already going on
> - upgrade for Damocles pod already going on
> - upgrade for AESA radar and SPECTRA with GaN modules, already going on
> - upgrade of the weapon package with AASM 125, Brimstone or maybe Indian weapons
> 
> - stealth demonstrator (airframe shapings, weapon pods, new coatings) already funded to start development
> - SATCOM data links aimed to link Rafale in future with nEUROn UCAV in combined strike attacks
> - 90kN engine version developed nearly a decade ago, can be integrated if a customer is ready to pay for it (UAE didn't wanted to pay alone and not takes the normal 75kN engine)
> - HMS developed and tested nearly a decade ago, waiting for a customer to fund integration
> - CFTs developed and tested nearly a decade ago, waiting for a customer to fund integration
> 
> So no, they are not struggeling to upgrade the fighter, not in the past, not in present and not in future too, but you just might have confused it with the EF.


Finally someone gave a detailed account of Rafale's development.  ( too lazy to write this )
I don't know why people claim without doing proper research.

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## Shaurya

Mosamania said:


> Whatever it is I am sure India's defense ministry is not staffed by idiots to make the wrong choice. Now I have to sink into 31 pages in the Arabic Defense forum over this.... This Typhoon vs Rafale is seriously getting old x(
> 
> God help me it is going to be a forum warzone there....



so does france has any plans?? I heard they will be inducting their next aircraft in 2035-2040 and it will be sixth gen. air craft
Any explanations how will french themselves would survive??


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## Mosamania

KRAIT said:


> Finally someone gave a detailed account of Rafale's development.  ( too lazy to write this )
> I don't know why people claim without doing proper research.



Okay I didn't want to get into it but here it goes:

-Typhoon will be getting a thrust vectoring engine.
-Typhoon will operate the E-scan radar reputed to be the most advanced AESA radar in the world.
-Typhoon is the first to operate the MAWS system similar to the one installed on the F-35 called the EuroDASS.
-Typhoon already incorporates Electronic Warfare Suit.
-Both Typhoon and Rafale will employ the PIRATE.
-IRST is already incorporated into the Typhoon.
-Democles is being phased out of service it seriously needs to be upgraded. For you guys however you can put the Israeli Litening III on the Typhoon which still can not be integrated into the Rafale.
-The last weapon this you said is already integrated into the Typhoon for some time now.


I can answer the other things but I really hate these competitions and I am feeling sick even participating in one.


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## KRAIT

Mosamania said:


> Okay I didn't want to get into it but here it goes:
> 
> -Typhoon will be getting a thrust vectoring engine.
> -Typhoon will operate the E-scan radar reputed to be the most advanced AESA radar in the world.
> -Typhoon is the first to operate the MAWS system similar to the one installed on the F-35 called the EuroDASS.
> -Typhoon already incorporates Electronic Warfare Suit.
> -Both Typhoon and Rafale will employ the PIRATE.
> -IRST is already incorporated into the Typhoon.
> -Democles is being phased out of service it seriously needs to be upgraded. For you guys however you can put the Israeli Litening III on the Typhoon which still can not be integrated into the Rafale.
> -The last weapon this you said is already integrated into the Typhoon for some time now.
> 
> 
> I can answer the other things but I really hate these competitions and I am feeling sick even participating in one.



Exactly. Thats what i am saying, both are equally good. And we have urgent need of MMRCA due to our dwindling squadron no.s

I didn't mean to offend you. I was saying in general.


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## Mosamania

katwe said:


> so does france has any plans?? I heard they will be inducting their next aircraft in 2035-2040 and it will be sixth gen. air craft
> Any explanations how will french themselves would survive??



The Rafale was a shoot off from the original Typhoon program, Because of usual and world famous French arrogance and it kept fighting with all other partner nations and only wanted to do it their way so the Rafale came into being. Seeing their history it is no mystery the two are the world's most competitive aircrafts since both almost employ the same technology. 

European countries no longer think of "Gotta fight my neighbor" attitude so they will be able to survive just fine, War won't reach them for sometime and regarding their lack of 5th gen I am sure they will fill it up by going in a joint NATO operation with F-22 and F-35s.


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## Yeti

You know i wanted the EF at one point but after reading Sancho's post and also the fact that we already operate the Mirage i feel the best plane won and im a convert now of the Rafale


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## savVY

Congrats for everyone .. sorry for being late but we get our plane ... no need of this thread now for people saying that we don't have money specifically you know the name. No offense. now


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## shuntmaster

Wonderful news..


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## 500

Jon Snow said:


> there seems to be some confusion about another 80 fighters- seems that the iaf now wants 200 mrca but the mod doesnt have enough money for 200 rafales so they are looking for a cheaper machine to fill in numbers.
> If this is indeed the case then the mig 35 seems perfect - damn cheap but has decent AESA radar and cool features like 3D TVC.


TVC is quite useless feature in combat. Good for airshows though.


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## Screambowl

I personally think that Both EFT and Rafale are too good. 
India can still buy EFT, away from this deal, no one is stopping her. But MoD chose what suits us the best including the cost factor.


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## Birbal

500 said:


> TVC is quite useless feature in combat. Good for airshows though.



Cause the F-22 is an airshow plane right?

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## 500

Birbal said:


> Cause the F-22 is an airshow plane right?


They made flat nozzles to F-22 for stealth, so 2D TVC came from it very easily. SH and F-35, on the other hand did not get any TVC.


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## Abingdonboy

500 said:


> TVC is quite useless feature in combat. Good for airshows though.



Um I'd have to disagree with you there. It is an extremely useful feature that offers exceptional manoeuvrabiltity so a plane can break lock and in close WVR dog- fights give an added advantage to help out turn/out manoeuvre the oposesing ac. Not to mention on some ac it makes the engines more fuel efficient.

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## janon

500 said:


> TVC is quite useless feature in combat. Good for airshows though.



Watch from 1.25 onwards to understand how TVC is useful in combat. It is explained by an IAF officer:

The Su-30MKI of the Indian Air Force - YouTube

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## Abingdonboy

Hey check it out:



> THALES is also developing a digital colour head-up display (HUD) for the Rafale. This would be the first colour HUD in the world for a combat aircraft, as presently all combat aircraft have analogue HUDs that are able to display geometric forms in two dimensions only with a single green font. THALES&#8217; new digital HUD will offer a three-dimensional display of the ground with important items like obstacles or the runway for example, assuring a safe flight by night and bad visibility. The higher resolution of this new HUD will allow displays of perfect geometric forms (variable line thickness and brightness) and several different fonts in different colours (green and red for the current prototype) in order to match the other displays&#8217; colour codes used in the aircraft (such as red for high-priority threats).



How cool is that! IAF will be getting this on their Rafeles!!!


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## jackyy

*France swoops to rob UK of £13bn Indian jet contract despite Government promises aid package would secure deal

*

Read more: France swoops to rob UK of £13bn Indian jet contract | Mail Online

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## jackyy

*Nicolas Sarkozy&#8217;s jibe at Britain*

Nicolas Sarkozy news: French president's jibe at Britain | The Sun |News|Politics


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## farhan_9909

congrats to all my indian brother

MMRCA itself means a Multirole fighter and Rafale was the best multirole fighter among the competitors

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## U.S Navy SEALs

Congratulations India, you undoubtedly in the future will pose a great threat in Asia for other Asian nations. Probably the best
air force in all of Asia in a few years. It's amazing, a country that culturally hasn't changed in 5,000 years competing in the world for the better of the nation.

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## Shaurya

U.S Navy SEALs said:


> Congratulations India, you undoubtedly in the future will pose a great threat in Asia for other Asian nations. Probably the best
> air force in all of Asia in a few years. It's amazing, a country that culturally hasn't changed in 5,000 years competing in the world for the better of the nation.



It's not about threat brother, but self security, we dont share the chinese mentality of attacking weaker countries without any reasons... But yeah, these are also required for power prokection... 

---------- Post added at 08:26 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:25 AM ----------




jackyy said:


> *France swoops to rob UK of £13bn Indian jet contract despite Government promises aid package would secure deal
> 
> *
> 
> Read more: France swoops to rob UK of £13bn Indian jet contract | Mail Online



And what about trillions of euros britan stole from India??


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## Shaurya

Will the production start from this year itself or will it start next year ??


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## IndoUS

katwe said:


> Will the production start from this year itself or will it start next year ??



Not just yet, there are still toooooooo............... many paper works to be done. Plus we will most likely buy some off the shelf with other being built in India with ToT so you can guess that it will take some considerable amount of time.


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## Tridibans

katwe said:


> Will the production start from this year itself or will it start next year ??


 
Initially 18 will arrive directly from france in a fly away condition. The remaining would be manufactured in India, probably at HAL, Bangalore. The initial batch would come by 2013, if not earlier.

France's Dassault beats BAE Systems to clinch Indian government fighter jet contract - Telegraph

Brits are moaning as usual.

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## Raje amar

Yeti said:


> $50 million a pop is just a estimate it is no guarantee and we all know with Russia and it's price increases once contracts have been signed.



we dont need to ask for TOT in the case. this will significantly reduce the price.
the flyaway cost will be around $55mil.

many things cam be achived form the deal.


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## Jason bourne

Tridibans said:


> Initially 18 will arrive directly from france in a fly away condition. The remaining would be manufactured in India, probably at HAL, Bangalore. The initial batch would come by 2013, if not earlier.
> 
> France's Dassault beats BAE Systems to clinch Indian government fighter jet contract - Telegraph
> 
> Brits are moaning as usual.




isnt it possible to ask for 3 sqd in fly away condition ?


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## Mirza Jatt

a li'l dissapointed...but chalega...these were the best two fighter...congrats IAF


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## Hello_10

Mosamania said:


> Whatever it is *I am sure India's defense ministry is not staffed by idiots* to make the wrong choice. Now I have to sink into 31 pages in the Arabic Defense forum over this.... This Typhoon vs Rafale is seriously getting old x(
> 
> God help me it is going to be a forum warzone there....


 
Nor team of Australian scientists also that internet warriors may prove themselves smarter than them, Australian scientists who first kicked EFT and heavily criticised F35/ JSF also and shortlisted Rafale with F35 mainly because they know that they would always shortlist one US&#8217;s aircraft as Australia&#8217;s 1st to last choice will always be an American aircraft. that reaserch was done to check Australia's decision for its biggest ever deal. same as for Saudi also who are going for EFT as it also has leg of US, otherwise Saudi&#8217;s first to last choice is also an American aircraft only.



> *Scientists warned defence department against Joint Strike Fighter*
> 
> It said Europe's Typhoon fighter had limited strike capability and was unreliable.
> 
> "Present (strike) capability is lacking due to limited sensors and weapons carrying capability," it said of the Typhoon.
> 
> "Low reliability will mean high costs to operate."
> 
> Despite these criticisms, the study recommended narrowing Australia's choice of a new fighter jet to only three: the JSF, the American F-15E and the French *Rafale*.
> 
> Cookies must be enabled | The Australian



And to help forum people understand, you would ask them just few simple questions, First, &#8220;chose one plane from EFT and Rafale who has better A2G capabilities. Then they will answer its Rafale only but they will also say that EFT is top for A2A operations.&#8221; And then you would ask them, &#8220;now chose a better plane than Rafale for A2G role, then they will again say its Rafale only.&#8221; And then you ask them, &#8220;if EFT is the best for air superiority role, any example? Then one Turkish may suddenly answer that even a Turkish F16 block52 beat EFT in dog fight a year before.&#8221; And about me, as Im mainly based in Australia, I may say that our scientists find Rafale capable enough to dodge any incoming missile in A2A combat but not even F35/ JSF with making serious criticism on EFT also. In their research, Australian scientists could blame Rafale for weak engine only, nothing else. While this MRCA deal was for Multi Role Combat Aircraft, not for an air superiority aircraft for what IAF already has SU30MKI (now its Super Sukhoi 30 with stealth features.) and like in your post &#8216;7586&#8217;, don&#8217;t discuss different technical terms as first we are not qualified to talk about them, and second if you do market research then if you gain on one point then you lose something on other points at the same time and the &#8216;fittest&#8217; option is what you would look for.

And with so many political factors like offer of having industry of EFT, closeness with top four EU nations except France, with offer of aid of one billion pound also from UK, with combined pressure from US+UK+Germany etc, Rafale was selected over EFT as IAF wants the better option than EFT, not politics.

At the same time you would add that even if F16 & Mirage2000 first came in production in 80s, F16s and Mirage2000 are still getting order like recent order by IAF for upgrade Mirage 2000 and F16s are still being delivered to Pakistan as their top gun). As, if India took over 5 years to finalise its MMRCA deal then over 3 years for a similar size country Brazil have already been passed, (like how US has spent over 16 to 18 years for development on F35/ JSF, but still 7-8 years more may be required for it to get IOC). It is because 8 &#8211; 10 years is almost nothing for arm industries. I remember, when IAF was considering Mirage2000-5 mk2 for this same MMRCA in 2007 which was fit in comparison with F16, SH, Mig29, etc. and even if Mirage2000, Mig29, F16 etc could also do their work competently and economically, it was clear that time also that Rafale will be the &#8216;next generation&#8217; option for IAF, the reason why France has closed production line of Mirage2000 and now its Rafale for them.



> Personally. I think India should not have gone after Rafale. Rafale already experiences huge difficulties in introducing new modifications. Meaning although it is a very capable jet "NOW" however in the future its prospects are dim. France couldn't complete the UAE deal because they "Can't" and I repeat "Can't" make the upgrading the UAE required.
> 
> Now and up to about 2022 it will remain a beat in the sky but not much after that. And if india is buying a plane it is only seeking to induct for 10 years then excuse me but this is counter-productive and a waste of cash if you ask me.====



I would like to advice you to remain happy with F15 and EFT as none of F35/ PAK FA/ J20 would see their even IOC within 7 to 8 years from now. even for F35, it is estimated at 2018 right now, while PAK FA and J20 will have to wait for few more years to declare their IOC date. And currently its only Rafale, EFT, F15E, SU35/ SU30MKI who can be said to be the best in world for the different type of operations. while Rafale already has infrastrure of Mirage2000, easy to induct and suitable for IAC-2 also

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## 帅的一匹

StrikeForce said:


> Its in London Museum, And they shamelessly charging us 16 pounds to see them. Their museum is full of loots across the globe.


Why those ******* Britain not returning the loots from India and China, shameless of them! God damn it!

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## Shaurya

wanglaokan said:


> Why those ******* Britain not returning the loots from India and China, shameless of them! God damn it!



don't worry lets wait for a few more years and then Indians and Chinese can loot it together

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## Tridibans

Indian Jatt said:


> a li'l dissapointed...*but chalega*...these were the best two fighter...congrats IAF


 
 I guess it will be more than "chalega".
Sorry mate, I can understand from where you are coming from. I also wanted the EFT to win.
But now I am a Rafale fanboy


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## Hu Jintao

Self deleted


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## Kesang

Rafael can drop nuclear Bomb?


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## Jason bourne

Mythbuster said:


> Rafael can drop nuclear Bomb?



AFCORSE THAT IS WHY IT IS SELECTED

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## Tridibans

wanglaokan said:


> Why those ******* Britain not returning the loots from India and China, shameless of them! God damn it!


 
Is it the first time yours and ours views are similar 

On topic: I guess with all the modernisation of the Indian armed forces and already formidible armed forces you have, future military conflicts will now have lesser chances of occurring. Its more like a deterrent and I dare say with the economic boom in our countries, we would hardly like to ruin all the hardwork in a military adventure. Luckily the political and the military leaders are not as dumb like us internet warriors


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## jackyy




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## Yeti

Raje amar said:


> we dont need to ask for TOT in the case. this will significantly reduce the price.
> the flyaway cost will be around $55mil.
> 
> many things cam be achived form the deal.




At the moment it's still a demo plane it's not been configured as to how the final setup of the MIG35 will be in the production stage and why do we need to purchase it when we have the Sukhois? what will the Mig bring us i can't understand the need for it.

---------- Post added at 05:19 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:17 AM ----------




Mythbuster said:


> Rafael can drop nuclear Bomb?




Yes but how we tamper with it is our business but im sure we can get some covert help if need be but i think DRDO can pull it off.


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## Tridibans

Mythbuster said:


> Rafael can drop nuclear Bomb?


 
http://defensetech.org/2011/05/31/a-nuclear-armed-rafale/

There you go....

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## Hello_10

Mosamania said:


> Whatever it is I am sure India's defense ministry is not staffed by idiots to make the wrong choice.









And neither the investors are idiots as shares of Rafale also jumped yesterday like this, making it the aircraft industry with the highest return than any other arm industry right now. This is how Rafale will go high and high in future after winning this MMRCA.............


Now no one can stop Rafale, Ab Ise Koi Nahi Rok Sakta, 'Muskil Hi Nahi Namumkin Hai'

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## Shaurya

Hello_10 said:


> Also neither the investors are idiots as shares of Rafale jumped yesterday, making it the aircraft industry with the highest return than any other arm industry right now. This is how Rafale will go high and high in future after winning this MMRCA. Now no one can stop Rafale, *&#8220;Muskil Hi Nahi Namumkin Hai&#8221;*



Bollywood effects?


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## Jason bourne

HOW many fighter aircraft currantly has AESA radar does china has any plane with AESA radar ?


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## gowthamraj

Cheers rafale fans , our support for rafale did't go vain 

@ spark


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## 帅的一匹

Jason bourne said:


> HOW many fighter aircraft currantly has AESA radar does china has any plane with AESA radar ?


J-10B carries fixed antenna AESA radar like those in F-16.




http://img1.gtimg.com/news/pics/hv1/10/27/938/61000345.jpg


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## Jason bourne

wanglaokan said:


> J-10B carries fixed antenna AESA radar like those in F-16.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://img1.gtimg.com/news/pics/hv1/10/27/938/61000345.jpg



operational j-10b if not from when ?


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## 帅的一匹

Jason bourne said:


> operational j-10b if not from when ?


other rumor says J-10B is packed with PESA radar cause of sticked out IFF atenna in the middle of the panel which is a typical indicator of PESA.


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## ptltejas

Long Life India France. Rafale Shrvived.


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## Birbal

Abingdonboy said:


> Um I'd have to disagree with you there. It is an extremely useful feature that offers exceptional manoeuvrabiltity so a plane can break lock and in close WVR dog- fights give an added advantage to help out turn/out manoeuvre the oposesing ac. Not to mention on some ac it makes the engines more fuel efficient.



In addition to the more dramatic maneuverability it offers, there is another subtle benefit. Normally, making maneuvers at high altitudes at supersonic speeds can bleed a lot of energy from drag on the control surfaces. Using thrust vectoring can help improve high altitude maneuver efficiency.

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## 帅的一匹

There is no time schedule of J10B operational publized yet. The first batch of J-10B prototype is using Russian AL-31F , the test for new WS-10B on J-10B is in the way. This will help reducing the importing volume of AL-31F, which is also a very great engine in the world.


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## 帅的一匹

[video]http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjk3MDIzODU2.html[/video]
Video of J-10B packed with WS-10b engine gliding on the airstip at Chengdu.


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## Bang Galore

Yeti said:


> lol now they will talk about the Aid they give us sore losers



That point is not without logic. If the difference between the two planes was only on cost & a figure of $ 5 million was mentioned, one has to say that an argument could easily be made out based on the aid the U.K. gives. The aid to be given to India by the U.K is in the region of $2.2 billion (1.4 billion pounds) between 2011 & 2015. Divide that by 126 aircraft & it works out to over 17 million per aircraft; a figure far more substantial than the supposed difference of $5 million per aircraft. I assume that the MoD has its own calculations while selecting the aircraft & it might have factored in variables not revealed in public, especially on tech transfers but the British do have a right to ask why their aid money doesn't still get them any benefits especially since any order to the EF consortium would have seen the U.K. government essentially subsiding through its aid, the purchase of the Typhoons by an amount equaling or exceeding $2 billion.


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## Shaurya

Bang Galore said:


> That point is not without logic. If the difference between the two planes was only on cost & a figure of $ 5 million was mentioned, one has to say that an argument could easily be made out based on the aid the U.K. gives. The aid to be given to India by the U.K is in the region of $2.2 billion (1.4 billion pounds) between 2011 & 2015. Divide that by 126 aircraft & it works out to over 17 million per aircraft; a figure far more substantial than the supposed difference of $5 million per aircraft. I assume that the MoD has its own calculations while selecting the aircraft & it might have factored in variables not revealed in public, especially on tech transfers but the British do have a right to ask why their aid money doesn't still get them any benefits especially since any order to the EF consortium would have seen the U.K. government essentially subsiding through its aid, the purchase of the Typhoons by an amount equaling or exceeding $2 billion.



This aid was especially given so that EF can have an advantage over rafale, but looks like we hurt somebody there


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## KRAIT

I am enjoying these discussions. Now aid from UK is also dragged. After poverty, education, and what not, every aspect of India will be considered in this deal. Why don't we add dwindling tiger numbers in this discussion, we also need money for that .

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## 帅的一匹

According to firm source, China had launched the procedure of exporting a squadron of J-10B with enhanced avionics , PESA radar and advanced IRST to PAF at cost of 42millions USD per unit, which the number will finally arrived at 150.

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## KRAIT

wanglaokan said:


> According to firm source, China had launched the procedure of exporting a squadron of J-10B with enhanced avionics , PESA radar and advanced IRST to PAF at cost of 42millions USD per unit, which the number will finally arrived at 150.


If i am not wrong China offered 50 J-10B to PAF, your source seems correct.


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## Bang Galore

katwe said:


> This aid was especially given so that EF can have an advantage over rafale, but looks like we hurt somebody there



Nothing to laugh about. I for one am grateful for every bit of aid that comes our way. That aid helps those countrymen & women of ours who are not as lucky & blessed as you & I. One must never be ungrateful (& your scoffing comes pretty close) for any help regardless of whatever decisions are taken. The Brits are not our enemies (nor indeed the Germans) & one must be gracious in allowing them to let off steam. They have a reasonable grouse about the aid they give to India (especially during these times) not getting them anything in return & we must both understand & maintain a certain amount of perspective. The Rafale is the winner & there is no reason anymore to belittle anyone else. Not anymore.

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## Birbal

Tridibans said:


> Initially 18 will arrive directly from france in a fly away condition. The remaining would be manufactured in India, probably at HAL, Bangalore. The initial batch would come by 2013, if not earlier.
> 
> France's Dassault beats BAE Systems to clinch Indian government fighter jet contract - Telegraph
> 
> Brits are moaning as usual.



It should be obvious to the Brits why they lost the bid, and it has nothing to do with foreign aid. It's because of a failed diplomatic mission by a certain Jeremy Clarkson...


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## KRAIT

Some say 2013, others say 2015, whats the correct time of delivery if Rafale signs the deal ?


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## 帅的一匹

KRAIT said:


> If i am not wrong China offered 50 J-10B to PAF, your source seems correct.














There is small modification from protopype 1 to prototype 5 seen on the picture.


----------



## Hello_10

Bang Galore said:


> That point is not without logic. If the difference between the two planes was only on cost & a figure of $ 5 million was mentioned, one has to say that an argument could easily be made out based on the aid the U.K. gives. The aid to be given to India by the U.K is in the region of $2.2 billion (1.4 billion pounds) between 2011 & 2015. Divide that by 126 aircraft & it works out to over 17 million per aircraft; a figure far more substantial than the supposed difference of $5 million per aircraft. I assume that the MoD has its own calculations while selecting the aircraft & it might have factored in variables not revealed in public, especially on tech transfers but the British do have a right to ask why their aid money doesn't still get them any benefits especially since any order to the EF consortium would have seen the U.K. government essentially subsiding through its aid, the purchase of the Typhoons by an amount equaling or exceeding $2 billion.



let me help you in this field  



> *Poor Little Rich Country*
> 
> BY PATRICK FRENCH | JUNE 24, 2011
> 
> *In May, the Indian government announced that it was giving $5 billion in aid to African countries in the interest of helping them meet their development goals.* "We do not have all the answers," Prime Minister Manmohan Singh said, "but we have some experience in nation-building, which we are happy to share."
> 
> *The British could be forgiven for being annoyed with Singh's largesse. Britain, after all, currently gives more than $450 million a year in aid to India, and has plans to continue doing so for at least the next few years.* The British economy is bumping in and out of a recession, while India's gross domestic product is growing at more than 8 percent a year. This has put the British government in the rather bizarre position of having to sell bonds in order to donate money to Asia's second-fastest-growing economy, even as the latter is itself getting into the philanthropy business.
> 
> *In 1951, the American diplomat Bill Bullitt described the condition of India in Life magazine: "An immense country containing 357 million people," he wrote, "with enormous natural resources and superb fighting men, India can neither feed herself nor defend herself against serious attacks. An inhabitant of India lives, on average, 27 years. His annual income is about $50. About 90 out of 100 Indians cannot read or write. They exist in squalor and fear of famine." Today, it would be hard to make such an absolute statement about India. Poverty certainly remains a chronic problem, but it exists alongside pockets of substantial wealth. An Indian's life expectancy at birth now stands at 67 years, and continues to rise. It is necessary perhaps to think in a different way, and to see that a country like India, like Schrödinger's cat, exists in at least two forms simultaneously: rich and poor.*
> 
> Poor Little Rich Country - By Patrick French | Foreign Policy



(also I hope you remember our talk on "How British Destroyed India" when I compared India with Britian from 1st to 15th, 16th and 17th , you may read all that again 
http://www.defence.pk/forums/genera...ow-british-destroyed-india-7.html#post2366841

http://www.localhistories.org/povhist.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_regions_by_past_GDP_(PPP) )

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## peep

KRAIT said:


> Some say 2013, others say 2015, whats the correct time of delivery if Rafale signs the deal ?



It will be 2015 and from 2017 the rafales will start coming out of HAL production lines !!


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## KRAIT

Its MRCA discussion, don't bring old news. These aids are given as diplomatic measures. Same way we gave $ 2 billion to afghanistan, build roads etc. to way a foothold and gain people's trust, as we have gained 3 out of 4 iron ore mines . US is in huge debt still it is spending so much on WOT.

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## jackyy

why not bring 2 squad from france directly??it will speed up the induction and help against china


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## 帅的一匹

jackyy said:


> why not bring 2 squad from france directly??it will speed up the induction and help against china


Direct Fly away increases cost. Will the first squad Rafle be allocated to China-India border infantry?


----------



## Hello_10

KRAIT said:


> Its MRCA discussion, don't bring old news. These aids are given as diplomatic measures. Same way we gave $ 2 billion to afghanistan, build roads etc. to way a foothold and gain people's trust, as we have gained 3 out of 4 iron ore mines . US is in huge debt still it is spending so much on WOT.



 ...



> Prime Minister Manmohan Singh on Friday outlined a slew of measures to assist in Afghanistan's reconstruction efforts, a day after committing an additional USD 500 million for various developmental projects in the war-torn nation that would take the *total Indian aid to USD 2 billion*.
> 
> Indian commitment to Afghanistan touches USD 2 billion: PM - Hindustan Times


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## KRAIT

wanglaokan said:


> Direct Fly away increases cost. Will the first squad Rafle be allocated to China-India border infantry?


Yeah, to the eastern front.


----------



## Hello_10

Bang Galore said:


> Nothing to laugh about. *I for one am grateful for every bit of aid that comes our way. That aid helps those countrymen & women of ours who are not as lucky & blessed as you & I. One must never be ungrateful (& your scoffing comes pretty close) for any help regardless of whatever decisions are taken.* The Brits are not our enemies (nor indeed the Germans) & one must be gracious in allowing them to let off steam. *They have a reasonable grouse about the aid they give to India (especially during these times) not getting them anything in return & we must both understand & maintain a certain amount of perspective.* The Rafale is the winner & there is no reason anymore to belittle anyone else. Not anymore.



 let me help you here also. Indians aren't giving anything to British but, who said India doesn't have beggars? have a look as below, India has both Indian and British beggars 



> David Cameron delivers address at Infosys Bangalore: Full Text
> 
> Bangalore: British prime minister David Cameron arrived amid tight security in Bangalore on Tuesday night to kick-start his three-day India visit.
> 
> Cameron, after meeting Karnataka governor HR Bhardwaj on Wednesday morning, headed to Infosys' Electronic City campus where he delivered an address and met Indian industry captains and Infoscians.
> 
> *Here is the full text of the British Prime Minister's speech.*
> 
> It is a great honour to be invited here today.
> 
> If Bangalore is the city that symbolises India's reawakening, Infosys has good claim to be the company. There's an energy and passion about this place that I have to say is awe-inspiring.
> 
> This is my third visit to your country. I came once before I was a politician. I came once when I was Leader of the Opposition. I now return as Prime Minister of Britain.
> 
> And it is a great privilege to extend to you - and through you to the people of India - the hand of friendship from all the British people.
> 
> 
> NEW RELATIONSHIP
> 
> I'm a new Prime Minister. I lead a new coalition government. And we're making a new start for Britain and its relationships around the world.
> 
> There are partnerships we want to create, friendships we want to elevate, dialogues we want to extend.
> 
> So I come here with a very clear purpose: to show what this new start means for our two countries.
> 
> I want to take the relationship between India and Britain to the next level. I want to make it stronger, wider and deeper.
> 
> To show how serious I am, I have brought with me the biggest visiting delegation of any British Prime Minister in recent memory.
> 
> Members of my Cabinet. Our most dynamic business leaders. Leaders of industry. Social entrepreneurs. Civic leaders. Figures from our most forward-looking arts institutions. Pioneers of community activism.
> 
> And today, I want to make the case for this relationship. I want to explain why India is so important to Britain's future. I want to tell Indians watching what Britain has to offer them. And I want to set out the common challenges we must meet together in the years ahead.
> 
> I do all this knowing this country has the whole world beating a path to its door. I understand that Britain cannot rely on sentiment and shared history for a place in India's future.
> 
> And I hope that today, and throughout this visit, you will see the strength of my commitment and the scale of my ambition for this new relationship.
> 
> 
> *WHY INDIA?*
> 
> So why is your country important for Britain's future? The most obvious reason is economic.
> 
> There is still a development road to travel but thanks to the reform process begun by Manmohan Singh in the 1990s, the Indian tiger has been uncaged and its power can be felt around the world.
> 
> You feel it in the fantastic new airports in Bangalore and Hyderabad, in Mumbai's Bandra-Worla Sea Link, in the Delhi metro and in Delhi's stunning new airport terminal.
> 
> And we can feel that power back home too.
> 
> *The Tata Group is now the largest manufacturing employer in Britain. And more than 180 Indian companies have invested in our IT sector.*
> 
> At the same time, India represents an enormous opportunity for British companies. Already our trade relationship is worth £11.5 billion a year. But I want us to go further.
> 
> India plans to invest over $500bn in infrastructure in the coming years. That is of course good for Indian business, but it is also a chance for British companies to generate growth. Your retail market is growing by 25 per cent annually, and there is no reason why British companies should not be a part of that too.
> 
> India is adding 15 million new mobile phone users every month. British companies can play an even greater role in that, providing services to the Indian consumer and creating jobs in India and back in the UK.
> 
> So I want this to be a relationship which drives economic growth upwards, and drives our unemployment figures downwards.
> 
> This is a trade mission, yes, but I prefer to see it as my jobs mission.
> 
> *Indian companies employ 90,000 people in the UK. Many more jobs in Britain exist thanks to the activities of British companies in India. Now I want to see thousands more jobs created in Britain, and of course in India through trade in the months and years ahead. That is the core purpose of my visit."*
> 
> David Cameron delivers address at Infosys Bangalore: Full Text

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## 500

Abingdonboy said:


> Um I'd have to disagree with you there. It is an extremely useful feature that offers exceptional manoeuvrabiltity so a plane can break lock and in close WVR dog- fights give an added advantage to help out turn/out manoeuvre the oposesing ac. Not to mention on some ac it makes the engines more fuel efficient.


TVC helps only at low speeds, untypical for combat. And when it comes to low speeds, nothing can overturn and escape from helmet guided AIM-9X.

No wonder that India chosed Rafale without TVC over MiG-35.


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## KRAIT

500 said:


> TVC helps only at low speeds, untypical for combat. And when it comes to low speeds, nothing can overturn and escape from helmet guided AIM-9X.
> 
> No wonder that India chosed Rafale without TVC over MiG-35.


Rafale C offered to India might have TVC, AESA is confirmed, and higher thrust engine is also probable.


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## Jon Snow

500 said:


> TVC helps only at low speeds, untypical for combat. And when it comes to low speeds, nothing can overturn and escape from helmet guided AIM-9X.
> 
> No wonder that India chosed Rafale without TVC over MiG-35.


 
So according to you - the americans, russians, chinese are all bonkers to want TVC in their latest fighters ( f 22, pak fa, j 20 ). Also the iaf must be crazy as well as to want it on the rafale and su 30mki and amca and fgfa......

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## Abingdonboy

Bang Galore said:


> That point is not without logic. If the difference between the two planes was only on cost & a figure of $ 5 million was mentioned, one has to say that an argument could easily be made out based on the aid the U.K. gives. The aid to be given to India by the U.K is in the region of $2.2 billion (1.4 billion pounds) between 2011 & 2015. Divide that by 126 aircraft & it works out to over 17 million per aircraft; a figure far more substantial than the supposed difference of $5 million per aircraft. I assume that the MoD has its own calculations while selecting the aircraft & it might have factored in variables not revealed in public, especially on tech transfers but the British do have a right to ask why their aid money doesn't still get them any benefits especially since any order to the EF consortium would have seen the U.K. government essentially subsiding through its aid, the purchase of the Typhoons by an amount equaling or exceeding $2 billion.



Mate, this was a DEFENCE deal, if you started brining politics into it then a US ac should have won. But fortunately the MoD/GoI let the IAF select based on TECHNICAL success. But as you say the margin between the two per unit was, relatively, small so I'd say it wasn't the price but the "sweeteners" such as offsets, ToT, commonality with M2K, IAF preference, true multi role capability that IAF is looking for to fill a gap in its fleet and many other things we won't know about for a while that really swung it for the Rafele. Not to mention the French must have thrown everything they could at this deal so the deal was made pretty "sweet" whilst EADS maybe were a bit more reserved.

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## 500

KRAIT said:


> Rafale C offered to India might have TVC.


It wont.



> AESA is confirmed


Of course, it was one of the main requirements of MMRCA. Its very possible that Rafale defeated Typhoon because its AESA is ready. TVC was not required on the other hand. Guess why.


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## RPK

*World&#8217;s biggest French kiss*


*World&#8217;s biggest French kiss*

- IAF picks Rafale for deal that can reshape Europe&#8217;s defence industry

New Delhi, Jan. 31: *A flying French kiss is in the air*.

The Indian Air Force (IAF) has decided French aircraft maker Dassault Aviation&#8217;s Rafale fighter jet is best suited for it.

The Rafale bid was less than the price quoted by four-nation European consortium EADS Cassidian&#8217;s Eurofighter Typhoon.

In a race that has lasted five years and tantalised not only India&#8217;s military establishment but also first-world countries and half-a-dozen of the globe&#8217;s largest companies, the sleek twin-engined Rafale with its ergonomic looks has beaten the Typhoon. Both aircraft were last year seen in action over Libya.

This will be India&#8217;s costliest defence contract &#8212; totalling close to $20 billion (Rs 1 lakh crore) &#8212; and is currently the single largest international military aircraft deal in the world, big enough to inject millions of euros into France.

The Financial Times reported that the deal has &#8220;the potential to reshape the European defence industry at a time companies are suffering from cutbacks in their traditional developed markets&#8221;.

Not to be faulted for passion, President Nicolas Sarkozy with Carla Bruni kept up a persistent and intensive diplomatic engagement with Prime Minister Manmohan Singh at both Rajpath and on the Champs Elysees. France&#8217;s refusal to impose sanctions on India after the 1998 nuclear tests and the Indian Air Force&#8217;s familiarity with the French-built Mirage 2000 aircraft would have shaped New Delhi&#8217;s choice.

Sarkozy, who lost no time in formally welcoming the developments although the final deal is yet to be sealed, is certain to flog the breakthrough as a coup, which should come in handy as he heads to elections. The conservative President is now trailing a socialist rival in opinion polls.

&#8220;The realisation of the Rafale project will illustrate the depth and scale of the strategic partnership between France and India,&#8221; the French embassy in New Delhi said.

For France and Rafale-maker Dassault Aviation, this is a huge boost because they have not been able to secure a single customer for the fighter plane apart from the Armee de &#8217;air (the French air force).

The share price of Dassault Aviation &#8212; Sarkozy is said to be close to the industrial group that also owns the pro-government Le Figaro newspaper &#8212; jumped almost 20 per cent in Paris today after the Indian news broke.

Dassault Aviation said the company and its partners &#8220;are honoured and grateful to the government and the people of India&#8230;.&#8221;

For the (IAF), there was also the desperation to replace its ageing fleet of MiG 21 fighter aircraft with jets capable of matching up to Chinese and Pakistani capabilities and also the price.

The Rafale will not come cheap. The cost has not been announced by the companies or the government. But an approximate figure can be gauged by a Swiss competition in which the Rafale lost to the Swedish Gripen aircraft two months back. France had offered to sell 18 Rafale aircraft for $2.9 billion or $162 million (or about Rs 800 crore) each.

But the IAF would be buying 126 aircraft and the economies of scale would bring the price down a couple of notches. India proposes to buy the aircraft over 10 years &#8212; 18 in &#8216;fly away&#8217; condition over three years after the contract is signed and the rest to be assembled with Hindustan Aeronautics possibly at the defence firm&#8217;s Bangalore establishment.

When India sent out the request for proposals (or tender) to six firms in 2008, the cost of the deal was pegged at $10.4 billion (Rs 42,000 crore). The final figure could be close to twice that amount.

&#8220;Next fiscal,&#8221; defence minister A.K. Antony replied this morning, asked when a contract for the aircraft could be signed. Sources said later that the Rafale has emerged as &#8220;L1&#8221; &#8212; jargon for lowest bidder.

The India representatives of the two competing companies had been informed. Price negotiations leading to the signing of a contract would begin in the next 10 days.

&#8220;It is a long process. The file has not come to my table,&#8221; Antony said. The final contract would come only after the approval of the Cabinet Committee on Security headed by the Prime Minister.

The IAF has the option of ordering an additional 63 aircraft but that will be at a re-negotiated price.

The Typhoon and the Rafale were shortlisted after 643-point technical and flight evaluation tests by the IAF through 2009 and 2010.

They edged out four other competitors &#8212; the F-16 Super Viper (made by Lockheed Martin, US), the F/A-18 E/F Super Hornet (Boeing, US), Saab&#8217;s Gripen (Swedish) and the Russian MiG 35 &#8212; to be shortlisted for the final leg.

The Eurofighter, built by companies from the UK, Germany, Italy and Spain &#8212; has now been beaten by the Rafale for the Indian order.

Endre Lunde, a consultant with IHS Jane&#8217;s Defence Weekly, described the deal as a &#8220;major win for France, and a major loss for the UK&#8221;.


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## Jason bourne

we will get meteor with rafale but can it be possible to put meteor in super sukhoi ? isnt it a deadly combo ?


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## farhan_9909

congrats to india for choosing such a great machine

Rafale is way better than EFT and a true multi role fighter.

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## Black Widow

500 said:


> It wont.
> 
> 
> Of course, it was one of the main requirements of MMRCA. Its very possible that Rafale defeated Typhoon because its AESA is ready. TVC was not required on the other hand. Guess why.



I have great respect for you But today I may not agree with you. RAFAEL and EFT both were providing AESA by the time of delivery. AESA was operational on American fighter but they were not in final 2. So saying Rafael was chosen coz of its AESA is not full truth.

TVC: Maneuverability is good for Dog fighting, MMRCA tender was for omnirole platform with good ground strike capability. That's why TVC was not one of the criteria. Worlds leading Air superiority fighters (Except F15 (old design),EFT) have TVC. Almost 75% of 5th gen platform have TVC. 

if TVC is useless ppl will not spend money in it. Some where you asked why F35 doesn't have TVC. Let me guess it. USA has already Airsuperiroty fighter with TVC (F22), They don't see wasting money again in F35 which they will use as MRCA (ground strike) role.


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## IND151

jackyy said:


> France's Dassault beats BAE Systems to clinch Indian government fighter jet contract - Telegraph
> 
> see the comments and frustration among brits
> even they are discussing poverty like our neighbors



the discussions are mind blowing 

any way are we going to buy 126 Rafales or 189?


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## Abingdonboy

IND151 said:


> the discussions are mind blowing
> 
> any way are we going to buy 126 Rafales or 189?



206 MMRCA I'd say was highly likely. But what is still ambiguous is the ramifications of Antony's remarks about the extra 80 potentially being one of the losing a/c.

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## Hello_10

Hello_10 said:


> And neither the investors are idiots as shares of Rafale also jumped yesterday like this, making it the aircraft industry with the highest return than any other arm industry right now. This is how Rafale will go high and high in future after winning this MMRCA.............
> 
> 
> Now no one can stop Rafale, Ab Ise Koi Nahi Rok Sakta, 'Muskil Hi Nahi Namumkin Hai'


 
I was expecting few comments on this new Don in aircraft industries. The best Multi Role aircraft of the world, the best A2G role that none is close to it, and better for air superiority roles than SU27/ J11/ SU30k also, a big jump in its share yesterday making it the aircraft of highest return in any market, any idea where The Don is heading for?


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## 500

Jon Snow said:


> So according to you - the americans, russians, chinese are all bonkers to want TVC in their latest fighters ( f 22, pak fa, j 20 ). Also the iaf must be crazy as well as to want it on the rafale and su 30mki and amca and fgfa......


I already explained why F-22 got 2-D TVC (because of flat stealthy nozzles). But if u check other new designs: Rafale, EFT, SH, F-2 - none has TVC. TVC was tested on F-15 but new mods of F-15 did not get it. F-35 - the most mass produced fighter of 21th century will not have TVC as well.

Even with TVC your aircraft pull out more than 9g, and it wont help u to espace from 360 grad launch *50+g* missiles like MICA, AIM-9X, Python 5, IRIS-T...



Black Widow said:


> if TVC is useless ppl will not spend money in it. Some where you asked why F35 doesn't have TVC. Let me guess it. USA has already Airsuperiroty fighter with TVC (F22), They don't see wasting money again in F35 which they will use as MRCA (ground strike) role.


Both Rafale and F-35 are *multi*role fighters. That means they should do dogfights as well. Actually multirole fighters are more prone to enter dogfights than air superriority fighters.


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## Major Shaitan Singh

Guys Wake Up......

Dassault Rafale came with many strings one must not forget.

*Rafale Engine is powered by Snecma the same company that is helping in Kaveri Engine.
French Scorpène class submarines builders DCNS with Help in ATV programs with MESMA system 
French shipbuilder DCNS will help in IAC 1 and 2 with CATOBAR technology and steam catapult
Dassault will help with AESA radar for LCA*

Not to forget French were awarded with Nuclear contracts


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## SQ8

Hello_10 said:


> And neither the investors are idiots as shares of Rafale also jumped yesterday like this, making it the aircraft industry with the highest return than any other arm industry right now. This is how Rafale will go high and high in future after winning this MMRCA.............
> 
> 
> Now no one can stop Rafale, Ab Ise Koi Nahi Rok Sakta, 'Muskil Hi Nahi Namumkin Hai'



I should give you an infraction for insulting the rafale like that.
SRK is like the F-35.. all pomp and nothing to show..
No aircraft should be equated with a living personality.. its an insult to engineering.

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## ptltejas

I think its possible to add TVC nozzle to rafale engine.


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## The enlightened

I say we also join the nEUROn project along with Rafale. Who else????


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## sancho

Mosamania said:


> Please i don't want to start a Rafale vs Typhoon thing again.



Probably a good decision, because you really have to inform yourself a bit more about EF and please not only from old sources.



> -Both Typhoon and Rafale will employ the PIRATE.
> -IRST is already incorporated into the Typhoon.



This for example says much, since PIRATE is the name of EFs IRST system, in Rafale it's called FSO. And the Damocles will not be phased out, actually Saudi Arabia wants to integrate it on EF to have commonality to their Tornados, which already use this LDP. Also not to use an Israeli LDP, which they wouldn't get anyway.



Jason bourne said:


> we will get meteor with rafale but can it be possible to put meteor in super sukhoi ? isnt it a deadly combo ?



Possible yes, likely now! METEOR is still in the final development stage and will come costly at the begining, also the Russians are developing Ramjet propelled versions of R77 too, but possibly only for the future Pak Fa. MKIs are also aimed to get Astra, which will replace R77 in IAF fleet and even that missiles is planned to get a similar propulsion system in future.



The enlightened said:


> I say we also join the nEUROn project along with Rafale. Who else????



nEUROn is a European project, but it was reported that Dassault would be interested to assist in the AURA development. I still would prefer Israelis as partners on this, but wouldn't mind if Dassaults help too.

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## Tshering22

palash_kol said:


> Great news.....Now IN will be going the rafale way...



Google Admiral Verma's statement on this. He's clarified already that IN will stick to Tejas and MiG-29Ks for foreseeable future. They are eyeing a 5th gen fighter in the future and till the current airframes of new Tejas and MiGs can stand, that will be the case.


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## Jason bourne

somehow can we get our hand on this baby with rafale officially or unofficialy ?


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## Birbal

500 said:


> TVC helps only at low speeds, untypical for combat. And when it comes to low speeds, nothing can overturn and escape from helmet guided AIM-9X.
> 
> No wonder that India chosed Rafale without TVC over MiG-35.



I already pointed out how TVC helps at high speed high altitude maneuvers. In addition, firing a short range missile at high off-boresite angles will drastically decrease the missile range. Thus, nose-pointing ability is still a major factor.

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## beggingwalker

*I have question.*

what will be the arms package and what will be the cost??
Mica missiles cost was near 1 billion and you can estimate nearly 4-5 billion for package of rafale.

so total deal will be near 25 billion if we include every thing coz there will be 200 rafales for 20 billion.


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## Birbal

Abingdonboy said:


> 206 MMRCA I'd say was highly likely. But what is still ambiguous is the ramifications of Antony's remarks about the extra 80 potentially being one of the losing a/c.



That's good to hear. Could you post a link?  Mig-35 ftw!

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## Hello_10

> Trade union Unite warned the selection of the Rafale could have "serious implications" for BAE Systems and the UK aerospace industry. It is estimated that 40,000 UK jobs are supported by the project.
> 
> France's Dassault beats BAE Systems to clinch Indian government fighter jet contract - Telegraph





> *Will urge India to reconsider Dassault Rafale fighter deal: British Prime Minister David Cameron*
> 
> "The decision is obviously disappointing but it is about who the Indians have assessed as making the lowest bid and therefore asked to enter into further negotiations. They have not yet awarded the contract," he added.
> 
> He said he did not expect any job losses in Britain as a result of the decision and said "it doesn't rule out Typhoon for India."
> 
> Will urge India to reconsider Dassault Rafale fighter deal: British Prime Minister David Cameron - The Times of India





> LONDON &#8212; British prime minister David Cameron said Wednesday he is disappointed that India is in talks with French company Dassault Aviation instead of Eurofighter over a contract for fighter aircraft, but will ask the country to reconsider.
> 
> Germany also expressed disappointment at what it called the &#8220;preliminary decision&#8221; by India.
> 
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/busin...fighter-jets/2012/02/01/gIQAH2aWhQ_story.html



they gotto understand, "Its time to move on.............."


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## Birbal

> Ha, ha, ha, Cameroonji, what do you tell a guy who doesn't take bribes, who doesn't make foreign trips unless asked by govt, who doesn't want foreign visas for his family (neither they do want that) and still sits on the chair of MOD? Even if the real Jesus Christ descends into his office and tells him"Son Anto, Davy is one of our guys", Anto won't budge. He even left Congress when the all powerful boss Indira Gandhi broke her own rules and he was the only guy whom she went all the way to his homes state to apologise and invite back to her fold. What enticement you can offer to a man who cares two hoots for money, fame, wine and women? Hard luck, Cameroonji Hard Luck! This is an entirely different cup of politico you Westerners and even most of India is not familiar. No wonder even Congress invited him to the Centre only after four decades.



To all those British idiots...

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## 500

Birbal said:


> I already pointed out how TVC helps at high speed high altitude maneuvers. In addition, firing a short range missile at high off-boresite angles will drastically decrease the missile range. Thus, nose-pointing ability is still a major factor.


At high altitudes you have very high radar detection and missile ranges, so you can easily fire 2-3 missiles before entering WVR so chances to enter dog fight are virtually zero.

And even after u enter WVR fight at high altitude ur missile range will be more than enough at any angles. Especially if u have high energy missile like MICA.


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## Shaurya

Bang Galore said:


> Nothing to laugh about. I for one am grateful for every bit of aid that comes our way. That aid helps those countrymen & women of ours who are not as lucky & blessed as you & I. One must never be ungrateful (& your scoffing comes pretty close) for any help regardless of whatever decisions are taken. The Brits are not our enemies (nor indeed the Germans) & one must be gracious in allowing them to let off steam. They have a reasonable grouse about the aid they give to India (especially during these times) not getting them anything in return & we must both understand & maintain a certain amount of perspective. The Rafale is the winner & there is no reason anymore to belittle anyone else. Not anymore.



Hmmm.. Ok, I don't have anything against germans, it was totally for the british, and mind you it was the same britan that made those millions of unfortunate people "unlike me" poor. Dear Sir, I respect your opinions but when they are just blind shots in the dark, I can't help but wonder what a non sensical argument it is. I have also read your other posts and for some reason you are keen to prove to everybody that britan did a great thing fr India.. For those who are unenlighted, about the reality, India was a economice superpower in the 17th century (and ofcourse before that) It is a FACT acknowledged by not only Indians (accept a few bangloreans like you ) by the britishers thmselves (just saying because you may consider them more truthful than the Indians). If you don't know the reality please refrain from making comments that can't be more farther from the truth. I know you are a "modern" Indian for whom west comes before their own country, but please don't sell yourself out so easily. I believe that's why we never had any major revolutionary from the south... While sikhs,rajputs,marathas and others were busy in warding off the white jokers, most of the south Indians were converting to chrisitianity  Even in the anti hindi agitations and the creation of "dravidanadu" were being made, it seems really funny to me that instead of demanding to make tamil or telgu the national language, the south Indians demanded english... strange isn't it ?? especially for people who were agitating to protect their own "culture" from foreigners  ... anywyas, Once again, it's my kind advice or request to you to please comment ONLY when you know the reality 

Best regards,

Katwe


----------



## janon

^^
This is the MRCA thread. Please don't bring in white vs brown, east vs west or north vs south here. Amazingly, your post does each of those. I know you are replying to other posters, so it is a request to everyone in general, not just you. (The unnecessary north vs south remarks seem to be just your doing. There are justified responses for all that, but as I said, this is the MRCA thread.)


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## Shaurya

janon said:


> ^^
> This is the MRCA thread. Please don't bring in white vs brown, east vs west or north vs south here. Amazingly, your post does each of those. I know you are replying to other posters, so it is a request to everyone in general, not just you. (The unnecessary north vs south remarks seem to be just your doing.)



Please tell those who dont seem to understand, however I respect your advice and will follow it, till everyone acts like they should


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## Kazhugu

katwe said:


> While sikhs,rajputs,marathas and others were busy in warding off the white jokers, most of the south Indians were converting to chrisitianity  Even in the anti hindi agitations and the creation of "dravidanadu" were being made, it seems really funny to me that instead of demanding to make tamil or telgu the national language, the south Indians demanded english... strange isn't it ?? especially for people who were agitating to protect their own "culture" from foreigners



one hand the brown nosed wannabe brits and on the other hand idiotic cow belt regionalists....


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## Shaurya

Kazhugu said:


> one hand the brown nosed wannabe brits and on the other hand idiotic cow belt regionalists....



Nothing with regionalism bro, I have seen many south Indians think that britishers are some great people who made their lands rich, was just showing them the reality , by the do you have the answer for that question??


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## sancho

Jason bourne said:


> somehow can we get our hand on this baby with rafale officially or unofficialy ?



Doubtful, but maybe Nirbhay will be a comparable missile.




beggingwalker said:


> *I have question.*
> 
> what will be the arms package and what will be the cost??
> Mica missiles cost was near 1 billion and you can estimate nearly 4-5 billion for package of rafale.
> 
> so total deal will be near 25 billion if we include every thing coz there will be 200 rafales for 20 billion.



The weapon package will be an extra deal and nobody can really say what it will include, or how costly it will be.


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## Jon Snow

looking at the amount of pressure the british will soon be putting on india to buy the eft is it possible that we go for it for the next 80 mmrca instead of the rafale or f 35. Getting two different fighters would increase the rate of induction and after this debacle i am sure eads will offer a very good price.


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## kingdurgaking

The curtains has to laid down for this thread finally.. No we need to open a new thread to discuss Indian Rafale news and discussions  ... Happy to see we have chosen what we want ....

Coming back to the Deal where typhoon lost and the news going round it would be unfair for EADS to blame India as if the aid will secure the deal... the procedure clearly mentions L1 will be awarded if they failed to do so it is the fault of the EADS... ultimately we are getting what we wanted and happy to see we have our trusted partner on our side .. way to go...


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## Major Shaitan Singh

Rafale would be customized as per Indian requirement !!

Like the SU 30MK to SU30MKI Rafale will have multiple weapon option from Russian to Isreali....

It will be integrated with AWAC system and lots of Isreali Technologies will be fed in.

People should not forget that Rafale is replacing out old Horse MiG 21 series...

Rafale will be like Hawk chasing the chinese pigeon J XX series and F16 C/D.

SU 30MKI and MiG 29K will give cover to these hawks and bomb the hell out of the enemy.

Indian Airforce are not any more PAF centric they are looking for the entire region from Gulf to Yellow sea.

After 2016 it will be Impossible for PAF to compete with IAF

One simple quote "*If you can't defeat someone get friendly with him*"

*Accept Indian Superiority and Get friendly and learn the tatics after all we are different brother from the same mother.*

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## kingdurgaking

Jon Snow said:


> looking at the amount of pressure the british will soon be putting on india to buy the eft is it possible that we go for it for the next 80 mmrca instead of the rafale or f 35. Getting two different fighters would increase the rate of induction and after this debacle i am sure eads will offer a very good price.



Do you think Britain pressure will work?.. I guess we had tremendous pressure from US compared to britain .. secondly we are not India of 90's to live on aid.. are they making some sense?? what is the aid going to do.. instead put the aid on there own workers..

---------- Post added at 12:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:14 PM ----------




Major Shaitan Singh said:


> Rafale would be customized as per Indian requirement !!
> 
> Like the SU 30MK to SU30MKI Rafale will have multiple weapon option from Russian to Isreali....
> 
> It will be integrated with AWAC system and lots of Isreali Technologies will be fed in.
> 
> People should not forget that Rafale is replacing out old Horse MiG 21 series...
> 
> Rafale will be like Hawk chasing the chinese pigeon J XX series and F16 C/D.
> 
> SU 30MKI and MiG 29K will give cover to these hawks and bomb the hell out of the enemy.
> 
> Indian Airforce are not any more PAF centric they are looking for the entire region from Gulf to Yellow sea.
> 
> After 2016 it will be Impossible for PAF to compete with IAF
> 
> One simple quote "*If you can't defeat someone get friendly with him*"
> 
> *Accept Indian Superiority and Get friendly and learn the tatics after all we are different brother from the same mother.*



did you ever read the contract that it will be customized ?? As far as i know it will not be... It will be F3 standard only... 

and later part of your text are really childish ...

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## KRAIT

MRCA winner Rafale... Read it for detailed info about this aircraft and its omnirole capabilities

FLIGHT TEST: Dassault Rafale - Rampant Rafale


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## lepziboy

hey guys I`m sorry if I may sound dumb.But what makes Rafale better than Eurofighter? Don`t get me wrong I 1st voted for Eurofighter then rafale.But i dont get the details why is it better.I only know it has better A2G


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## KRAIT

Read above link,....


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## Bang Galore

lepziboy said:


> hey guys I`m sorry if I may sound dumb.But what makes Rafale better than Eurofighter? Don`t get me wrong I 1st voted for Eurofighter then rafale.But i dont get the details why is it better.I only know it has better A2G



Nobody from the IAF has said it was better than the EF. Just cheaper.

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## lepziboy

Bang Galore said:


> Nobody from the IAF has said it was better than the EF. Just cheaper.



not from IAF like PDF members mostly go for Rafale.


----------



## Kazhugu

*@sancho...

will we be getting the scalp and the taurus standoff missiles from mbda for rafale ?*







katwe said:


> Nothing with regionalism bro, I have seen many south Indians think that britishers are some great people who made their lands rich, was just showing them the reality , by the do you have the answer for that question??



im a south indian and we dont think so...who gave you that idiotic idea..?

btw dont derail the thread...

---------- Post added at 12:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:27 PM ----------


----------



## Hello_10

Jason bourne said:


> we will get meteor with rafale but can it be possible to put meteor in super sukhoi ? isnt it a deadly combo ?



We currently have Rafale, EFT Typhoon, F15E and SU35/ SU30MKI as the four best aircrafts in today's world. As, if PAK FA and J20 are on development process then on the other hand condition of F35 looks very bad as per the recent news. while EFT Typhoon, which is primarily an air superiority aircraft, is generally beaten by even F16 block52 of 80s in dog fights.



> Danish F-16 vs. Italian Typhoon
> http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-15345.html





> Jun 12, 2011
> Pakistani F-16s Shoot Down RAF Eurofighter Typhoons During Air Combat Exercises In Turkey.
> 
> Pakistani F-16s Shoot Down RAF Eurofighter Typhoons During Air Combat Exercises In Turkey ~ ASIAN DEFENCE NEWS



This way, If Rafale is rated as the best Multi Role Combat Aircraft for primarily A2G operations in concern then Its air superiority performance is also on high end, and with the best air superiority aircraft of today&#8217;s world, the SU35/ SU30MKI,&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;. Rafale+SU30MKI will be a deadliest combination against any air force till 2020/25 and after that also, as per the news we continuously get from Independent Australian Combat Analysts about JSF/ F35:



> The independent Australian airpower think tank the Williams Foundation has called for Australia&#8217;s acquisition of the F-35 JSF to be delayed to allow the aircraft to mature, in light of recent news that IOC (initial operating capability) for the US Air Force may now be as late as *2018*.
> Delay JSF purchase &#8211; Williams Foundation | Australian Aviation Magazine





> September 7, 2011 (by Eric L. Palmer) - An unnamed source stated that earlier this year a presentation was given by an industry air combat threat assessment expert to defense officials of a NATO country which showed that the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) would not survive air combat against threats it is likely to see in its alleged service lifetime.
> 
> Part of the presentation showed *a computer simulation which calculated that the F-35 would be consistently defeated by the Russian-made SU-35 fighter aircraft.* The defeat calculated by the scenario also showed the loss of the F-35's supporting airborne-early warning and air-to-air refueling aircraft. The technology in the SU-35 will also see its way into growth upgrades of other SU-fighter variants used by countries like Indonesia, India, Malaysia and Vietnam.
> 
> The Russian-made T-50, PAK-FA low-observable fighter now in development is expected to be much more lethal than the SU-35 in air-to-air combat against the U.S. made F-35.
> 
> *Independent air combat analysts from Air Power Australia have also stated that the F-35 is not capable of facing high end threats; that what will be delivered (if it ever arrives) will be obsolete; and that the F-35 is not affordable or sustainable.*
> 
> http://www.f-16.net/news_article4416.html

Reactions: Like Like:
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## lepziboy

^^the only setback I see for SU-30MKI is its RCS


----------



## Hello_10

Bang Galore said:


> Nobody from the IAF has said it was better than the EF. Just cheaper.



Look, pass a massage to Mr David Cameron that he would first try to be a man and then talk about any deal. IAF isn&#8217;t responsible to give jobs to British workers . EFT Typhoon could win MMRCA through political pressure only as first EFT is not sold for as less price as F16, SH, Mig29, Grippen then there would be a reason why IAF would pay twice price for Typhoon than the other aircrafts of MMRCA. First EFT Typhoon is not a primarily Multi Role aircraft, then at the same time this so called Air Superiority aircraft continuously lose to F16s of 80s in dog fight also. If Britain is really in need then they would request for aid from India, like how India is giving billions to different African and Asian countries, but they certainly won&#8217;t try to involve India with their failures, on economic and defense front both 

(check my post '7691' also)

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1


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## Jason bourne

lepziboy said:


> ^^the only setback I see for SU-30MKI is its RCS



su 30mki is a tsunami that u can see but cant do anything abt it su-30mki never ment to hide


----------



## Jason bourne

Hello_10 said:


> We currently have Rafale, EFT Typhoon, F15E and SU35/ SU30MKI as the four best aircrafts in today's world. As, if PAK FA and J20 are on development process then on the other hand condition of F35 looks very bad as per the recent news. while EFT Typhoon, which is primarily an air superiority aircraft, is generally beaten by even F16 block52 of 80s in dog fights.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This way, If Rafale is rated as the best Multi Role Combat Aircraft for primarily A2G operations in concern then Its air superiority performance is also on high end, and with the best air superiority aircraft of today&#8217;s world, the SU35/ SU30MKI,&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;. Rafale+SU30MKI will be a deadliest combination against any air force till 2020/25 and after that also, as per the news we continuously get from Independent Australian Combat Analysts about JSF/ F35:





and what abt asmp a nuclear missiles of france can we get it ?


----------



## ARCHON

Jason bourne said:


> and what abt asmp a nuclear missiles of france can we get it ?



nirbhay which is similar


----------



## lepziboy

Jason bourne said:


> su 30mki is a tsunami that u can see but cant do anything abt it su-30mki never ment to hide



But a tsunami is deadlier when one doesnt know its coming and when one doesnt detect it


----------



## Jason bourne

lepziboy said:


> But a tsunami is deadlier when one doesnt know its coming and when one doesnt detect it



may be super sukhoi can reduse its rcs a bit ... deadlier tsunami


----------



## KRAIT

Jason bourne said:


> may be super sukhoi can reduse its rcs a bit ... deadlier tsunami


A bit.... dude they are making structural changes and RAM coating to significantly reduce its RCS.


----------



## Jason bourne

KRAIT said:


> A bit.... dude they are making structural changes and RAM coating to significantly reduce its RCS.



i doubt it unless and until all the weapons are external dont think the rcs will reduse significantly ..... any way good if it can reduse much or less didnt make any diffrance sukhoi will take out every thing which comes in its way


----------



## KRAIT

Jason bourne said:


> i doubt it unless and until all the weapons are external dont think the rcs will reduse significantly ..... any way good if it can reduse much or less didnt make any diffrance sukhoi will take out every thing which comes in its way


Yeah they are incorporating some of Mig 35 technology, significant meaning ~20% reduction acc. to me

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1


----------



## The enlightened

KRAIT said:


> Yeah they are incorporating some of Mig 35 technology, significant meaning ~20% reduction acc. to me


Source please.
How does Mig 35 tech amount to RCS reduction on the flanker. Better they could use Su 35S tech on it. Anyway I believe that MKI needs a lot more powerful[and lighter] radar and that too an AESA. I heard from somewhere that they'll upgrade the BARS to an AESA which doesn't sound much at first glance.
And it's payload and fuel capacity too need a boost. I mean a Rafale can carry more Payload than it today. Other things on my wishlist are a 
-new IRST with far more range,
-Better cockpit and for Pete's sake don't use that blue[puke] color,
-Meteor, 
-new engines with a hell lot more power than the current one,
-passive avionics and sensors with higher sensor fusion,
-higher composite count in the airframe ,as it is it's avionics are very heavy increasing the stress on it's engine and overall weight,
-I also hope they'll build something like SPECTRA after Rafale and it's tech gets integrated with India.


Now, If only wishes came true.


----------



## Bl[i]tZ

> Ha, ha, ha, Cameroonji, what do you tell a guy who doesn't take bribes, who doesn't make foreign trips unless asked by govt, who doesn't want foreign visas for his family (neither they do want that) and still sits on the chair of MOD? Even if the real Jesus Christ descends into his office and tells him"Son Anto, Davy is one of our guys", Anto won't budge. He even left Congress when the all powerful boss Indira Gandhi broke her own rules and he was the only guy whom she went all the way to his homes state to apologise and invite back to her fold. What enticement you can offer to a man who cares two hoots for money, fame, wine and women? Hard luck, Cameroonji Hard Luck! This is an entirely different cup of politico you Westerners and even most of India is not familiar. No wonder even Congress invited him to the Centre only after four decades.





Birbal said:


> To all those British idiots...



This is typical Bharat-Rakshak member language. They have their own English dictionary.


----------



## SQ8

KRAIT said:


> Yeah they are incorporating some of Mig 35 technology, significant meaning ~20% reduction acc. to me



The best they can accomplish is something close to the F-15SE..
But the Flanker is a large behemoth with flat surfaces at angles all over the place. A difficult and probably expensive prospect for RCS reduction.


----------



## rockstarIN

Its good that Flanker be as it is.


----------



## Jon Snow

The enlightened said:


> Source please.
> How does Mig 35 tech amount to RCS reduction on the flanker. Better they could use Su 35S tech on it. Anyway I believe that MKI needs a lot more powerful[and lighter] radar and that too an AESA. *I heard from somewhere that they'll upgrade the BARS to an AESA which doesn't sound much at first glance.*
> And it's payload and fuel capacity too need a boost. I mean a Rafale can carry more Payload than it today. Other things on my wishlist are a
> -new IRST with far more range,
> -Better cockpit and for Pete's sake don't use that blue[puke] color,
> -Meteor,
> -new engines with a hell lot more power than the current one,
> -passive avionics and sensors with higher sensor fusion,
> -higher composite count in the airframe ,as it is it's avionics are very heavy increasing the stress on it's engine and overall weight,
> -I also hope they'll build something like SPECTRA after Rafale and it's tech gets integrated with India.
> 
> 
> Now, If only wishes came true.


I think the AESA is the Zhuk AE. The IAF was not impressed with this radar in the MMRCA trials but the russians had promised an improved version (FGA 35) with higher range (upto 200km) and doubling the number of targets tracked(to 60). However the FGA 35 was made for the mig 35 ( 700mm nose cone ) - for it to be used on the Su 30MKI the radar will be scaled up to the size of its nose( 960mm) thereby greatly increasing the number of AESA modules and increasing range as well. We can expect the flanker version of the FGA 35 to have range of 280 -300km for 5m2 targets or around 180-200km for small fighters like F 16s(which is very good). So I dont think we need to worry about a sub par radar on the MKI.

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## shuntmaster

What does Rafale deal mean to IAF?

[video]http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/ndtv-special-ndtv-24x7/what-does-the-rafale-deal-mean-for-the-indian-air-force/222680?hp[/video]

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## praveen007

*The Real Reasons for Rafale
.
.
The Real Reasons for Rafale&#8217;s Indian Victory
.
.
.*
By Giovanni de Briganti
PARIS --- While many observers cite technology
transfer, prices and performance as being major
factors in India&#8217;s selection of the Rafale as its next-
generation fighter, reality is very different even if
these factors obviously did play a significant role.
In the same way that it is true that Rafale lost
several competitions through no fault of its own,
it must be recognized that its victory in India was
also won, to a great extent, through no fault of its
own. The real reason for its victory is political,
and the long memory of Indian politicians was a
major contributing factor.
This is not to say, however, that Rafale&#8217;s own
impressive qualities had nothing to do with its
selection. The Indian Air Force, which was
extensively briefed by the French air force in the
autumn, was particularly impressed by its
operational performance during the Libyan
bombing campaign and in Afghanistan. Rafale
also has a naval variant which could be of future
interest to India, given its plans to buy and build
aircraft carriers, while the recent decision to
upgrade India&#8217;s Mirage 2000H fighters will
simplify the air force&#8217;s logistics chain, as these will
share with Rafale many weapons and other
equipment.
The Indian Air Force also is a satisfied user of long
standing of French fighters, going back to the
Dassault Ouragan in the 1950s. It was also
particularly appreciative of the performance of its
Mirages during the 1999 Kargil campaign against
Pakistan, and of the support it then obtained from
France. During that campaign, India obtained
French clearance &#8211; and possibly more - to
urgently adapt Israeli and Russian-supplied laser-
guided bombs to the Mirages, which thus able to
successfully engage high-altitude targets that
Indian MiG-23s and MiG-27s had been unable to
reach.
Rafale was preferred because of lower costs, and
the Indian air force's familiarity with French
warplanes such as the Mirage, Bloomberg
reported Feb. 1 quoting an Indian source who
asked not be named. "Unit-wise, the French plane
is much cheaper than the Eurofighter. Moreover,
the Indian air force, which is well equipped with
French fighters, is favouring the French," the
source said.
To Indian officials, France&#8217;s steadfastness as a
military ally contrasted strongly with that of the
United States, which stopped F-16 deliveries to
Pakistan (but kept the money) when it found it
expedient to do so, and slowed or vetoed
delivery of components for Light Combat Aircraft
that India was developing. And, of course, the
1998 arms embargo, decreed by the US after
India&#8217;s nuclear test in May of that year, left a very
bad taste in Indian mouths. France, on the
contrary, was the only Western nation not to
impose sanctions.
That, Indian sources say, was New Delhi&#8217;s real
reason for eliminating Boeing and Lockheed
Martin from the fighter competition; India has
resolved, these sources say, to buy only second-
line equipment from the U.S., such as transport
(C-17, C-130J) or maritime patrol aircraft (P-8I).
Vital weapons such as missiles and fighters,
when they cannot be locally produced, will
remain the preserve of France and Russia.
Political considerations were also a significant
factor playing against Rafale&#8217;s final competitor, the
Eurofighter Typhoon. As this aircraft is produced
by a consortium of four nations, each with
different foreign policies and different attitudes
and tolerances to arms exports, Indian officials
were a bit nervous about their ultimate reliability
as a single supplier.
Germany is a long-standing Indian aviation
partner, and a respected role model for Indian
politicians, many of whom were educated there.
German companies &#8211; essentially the former
Messerschmitt-Boelkow-Blohm, now part of
EADS - helped Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd.
develop both the LCA and the Advanced Light
Helicopter, now called Dhruv. These links were
the reason the Eurofighter bid was led by
Germany&#8217;s Cassidian, and not BAE Systems, the
former colonial power. But Germany had
dithered over technology transfer for LCA, soft-
pedaled on ALH tech transfer when German
pacifists raised their eyebrows, and coughed
when India almost went to war with Pakistan
over Kargil and Kashmir, so in the final analysis it
could not be considered a reliable supplier of
major weapons.
Italy has never sold a major weapon to India, and
so could bring neither influence nor reputation to
support Eurofighter, while the third partner,
Spain, is totally absent from the Indian military
landscape.
This left BAE Systems as the best-known
Eurofighter partner in India, and so by default as
its ultimate public face. BAE in 2003 sold £1.5
billion&#8217;s worth of Hawk jet trainers to India, with a
follow-on, £500 million order in 2010. However,
its previous major sale to India was the Jaguar
light attack aircraft in the 1970s. In fact, this
aircraft was jointly developed by Britain and
France on a 50/50 basis, and while it was license-
produced by HAL it was never really successful
as a fighter. Furthermore, France could claim as
much benefit from its Indian career as BAE.
Taken together, the Eurofighter partner nations
posed an even thornier problem: in case of war,
German law prohibits deliveries of weapons and
spares, Italian law and public opinions would
demand an embargo, which Spanish legislation is
murky. What would happen, Indian politicians
must have wondered, if after buying the
Eurofighter they went to war? Would spares and
weapons be forthcoming, or would they be
embargoed? The political risk was obviously too
big to take.
Weapons also played a significant role in
persuading India to opt for Rafale: not only is its
weapons range mostly French-made, and thus
not subject to a third-party embargo, but so are
all of its sensors. Eurofighter, whose air-to-air
missiles include the US-made AIM-120 Amraam
and the German-led IRIS-T, and whose primary
air-to-ground weapon is the US-made Paveway,
was obviously at a competitive disadvantage in
this respect.
Furthermore, the Rafale is nuclear-capable and
will replace the Mirage 2000N in French service as
the carrier of the newly-upgraded ASMP/A
nuclear stand-off missile; it is also capable of firing
the AM-39 Exocet missile, giving it an anti-ship
capability that its competitors do not have. India
is also interested in fitting its BrahMos supersonic
missile to a wide range of its combat aircraft, and
Rafale could apparently carry it.
Given that India had sworn to buy the cheapest
compliant competitor, it would have been unable
to justify picking the Rafale had this not been
offered at the lower price. While official figures
have not been released, and indeed may never
be, initial reports from New Delhi claim that Rafale
was offered at a unit price of $4-$5 million less
than Eurofighter, which is a surprisingly large
advantage given the French aircraft&#8217;s reputation of
being high-priced.
The French offer also featured substantially lower
costs of ownership, according to the same
reports, thanks to lower fuel consumption and
simpler maintenance requirements.
If true, these figures imply the French offer
undercut Eurofighter by over $600 million, which
is a large enough difference for one French insider
to wonder whether Dassault Aviation will ever
make any money on the contract.
But, even if it doesn&#8217;t, the Indian contract gives
Rafale instant legitimacy, not only because of the
thoroughness and transparency of the bidding
process, but also because India is the only
country to have fought four and a half major
wars since 1948, and so knows something about
air combat.
For Dassault, the Rafale program will now remain
active, with a stabilized production line, for
decades to come, and the company will have that
much more time to find additional customers.
Keeping its production line and supply chain
humming at an economically-viable rate are
sufficiently valuable achievements to push
immediate profits into the sidelines. Supporting
126 &#8211; and possibly 206, if India buys an optional
second batch &#8211; combat aircraft, and providing
spares, fixes and upgrades over the next 40
years, will generate gigantic profits, and this more
than justified lowering Dassault&#8217;s notoriously high
profit margins.
And, as French Defense Minister Gérard Longuet
told reporters during an impromptu press
conference in Parliament, France may soon find
&#8220;that good news travels in formation,&#8221; implying
that further, long-deferred contracts might soon
be announced.

Reactions: Like Like:
4


----------



## tvsram1992

lepziboy said:


> But a tsunami is deadlier when one doesnt know its coming and when one doesnt detect it


Tsunami cannot attack land based deep targets....


----------



## praveen007

*The Real Reasons for Rafale
.
.
The Real Reasons for Rafale&#8217;s Indian Victory
.
.
.*
By Giovanni de Briganti
PARIS --- While many observers cite technology
transfer, prices and performance as being major
factors in India&#8217;s selection of the Rafale as its next-
generation fighter, reality is very different even if
these factors obviously did play a significant role.
In the same way that it is true that Rafale lost
several competitions through no fault of its own,
it must be recognized that its victory in India was
also won, to a great extent, through no fault of its
own. The real reason for its victory is political,
and the long memory of Indian politicians was a
major contributing factor.
This is not to say, however, that Rafale&#8217;s own
impressive qualities had nothing to do with its
selection. The Indian Air Force, which was
extensively briefed by the French air force in the
autumn, was particularly impressed by its
operational performance during the Libyan
bombing campaign and in Afghanistan. Rafale
also has a naval variant which could be of future
interest to India, given its plans to buy and build
aircraft carriers, while the recent decision to
upgrade India&#8217;s Mirage 2000H fighters will
simplify the air force&#8217;s logistics chain, as these will
share with Rafale many weapons and other
equipment.
The Indian Air Force also is a satisfied user of long
standing of French fighters, going back to the
Dassault Ouragan in the 1950s. It was also
particularly appreciative of the performance of its
Mirages during the 1999 Kargil campaign against
Pakistan, and of the support it then obtained from
France. During that campaign, India obtained
French clearance &#8211; and possibly more - to
urgently adapt Israeli and Russian-supplied laser-
guided bombs to the Mirages, which thus able to
successfully engage high-altitude targets that
Indian MiG-23s and MiG-27s had been unable to
reach.
Rafale was preferred because of lower costs, and
the Indian air force's familiarity with French
warplanes such as the Mirage, Bloomberg
reported Feb. 1 quoting an Indian source who
asked not be named. "Unit-wise, the French plane
is much cheaper than the Eurofighter. Moreover,
the Indian air force, which is well equipped with
French fighters, is favouring the French," the
source said.
To Indian officials, France&#8217;s steadfastness as a
military ally contrasted strongly with that of the
United States, which stopped F-16 deliveries to
Pakistan (but kept the money) when it found it
expedient to do so, and slowed or vetoed
delivery of components for Light Combat Aircraft
that India was developing. And, of course, the
1998 arms embargo, decreed by the US after
India&#8217;s nuclear test in May of that year, left a very
bad taste in Indian mouths. France, on the
contrary, was the only Western nation not to
impose sanctions.
That, Indian sources say, was New Delhi&#8217;s real
reason for eliminating Boeing and Lockheed
Martin from the fighter competition; India has
resolved, these sources say, to buy only second-
line equipment from the U.S., such as transport
(C-17, C-130J) or maritime patrol aircraft (P-8I).
Vital weapons such as missiles and fighters,
when they cannot be locally produced, will
remain the preserve of France and Russia.
Political considerations were also a significant
factor playing against Rafale&#8217;s final competitor, the
Eurofighter Typhoon. As this aircraft is produced
by a consortium of four nations, each with
different foreign policies and different attitudes
and tolerances to arms exports, Indian officials
were a bit nervous about their ultimate reliability
as a single supplier.
Germany is a long-standing Indian aviation
partner, and a respected role model for Indian
politicians, many of whom were educated there.
German companies &#8211; essentially the former
Messerschmitt-Boelkow-Blohm, now part of
EADS - helped Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd.
develop both the LCA and the Advanced Light
Helicopter, now called Dhruv. These links were
the reason the Eurofighter bid was led by
Germany&#8217;s Cassidian, and not BAE Systems, the
former colonial power. But Germany had
dithered over technology transfer for LCA, soft-
pedaled on ALH tech transfer when German
pacifists raised their eyebrows, and coughed
when India almost went to war with Pakistan
over Kargil and Kashmir, so in the final analysis it
could not be considered a reliable supplier of
major weapons.
Italy has never sold a major weapon to India, and
so could bring neither influence nor reputation to
support Eurofighter, while the third partner,
Spain, is totally absent from the Indian military
landscape.
This left BAE Systems as the best-known
Eurofighter partner in India, and so by default as
its ultimate public face. BAE in 2003 sold £1.5
billion&#8217;s worth of Hawk jet trainers to India, with a
follow-on, £500 million order in 2010. However,
its previous major sale to India was the Jaguar
light attack aircraft in the 1970s. In fact, this
aircraft was jointly developed by Britain and
France on a 50/50 basis, and while it was license-
produced by HAL it was never really successful
as a fighter. Furthermore, France could claim as
much benefit from its Indian career as BAE.
Taken together, the Eurofighter partner nations
posed an even thornier problem: in case of war,
German law prohibits deliveries of weapons and
spares, Italian law and public opinions would
demand an embargo, which Spanish legislation is
murky. What would happen, Indian politicians
must have wondered, if after buying the
Eurofighter they went to war? Would spares and
weapons be forthcoming, or would they be
embargoed? The political risk was obviously too
big to take.
Weapons also played a significant role in
persuading India to opt for Rafale: not only is its
weapons range mostly French-made, and thus
not subject to a third-party embargo, but so are
all of its sensors. Eurofighter, whose air-to-air
missiles include the US-made AIM-120 Amraam
and the German-led IRIS-T, and whose primary
air-to-ground weapon is the US-made Paveway,
was obviously at a competitive disadvantage in
this respect.
Furthermore, the Rafale is nuclear-capable and
will replace the Mirage 2000N in French service as
the carrier of the newly-upgraded ASMP/A
nuclear stand-off missile; it is also capable of firing
the AM-39 Exocet missile, giving it an anti-ship
capability that its competitors do not have. India
is also interested in fitting its BrahMos supersonic
missile to a wide range of its combat aircraft, and
Rafale could apparently carry it.
Given that India had sworn to buy the cheapest
compliant competitor, it would have been unable
to justify picking the Rafale had this not been
offered at the lower price. While official figures
have not been released, and indeed may never
be, initial reports from New Delhi claim that Rafale
was offered at a unit price of $4-$5 million less
than Eurofighter, which is a surprisingly large
advantage given the French aircraft&#8217;s reputation of
being high-priced.
The French offer also featured substantially lower
costs of ownership, according to the same
reports, thanks to lower fuel consumption and
simpler maintenance requirements.
If true, these figures imply the French offer
undercut Eurofighter by over $600 million, which
is a large enough difference for one French insider
to wonder whether Dassault Aviation will ever
make any money on the contract.
But, even if it doesn&#8217;t, the Indian contract gives
Rafale instant legitimacy, not only because of the
thoroughness and transparency of the bidding
process, but also because India is the only
country to have fought four and a half major
wars since 1948, and so knows something about
air combat.
For Dassault, the Rafale program will now remain
active, with a stabilized production line, for
decades to come, and the company will have that
much more time to find additional customers.
Keeping its production line and supply chain
humming at an economically-viable rate are
sufficiently valuable achievements to push
immediate profits into the sidelines. Supporting
126 &#8211; and possibly 206, if India buys an optional
second batch &#8211; combat aircraft, and providing
spares, fixes and upgrades over the next 40
years, will generate gigantic profits, and this more
than justified lowering Dassault&#8217;s notoriously high
profit margins.
And, as French Defense Minister Gérard Longuet
told reporters during an impromptu press
conference in Parliament, France may soon find
&#8220;that good news travels in formation,&#8221; implying
that further, long-deferred contracts might soon
be announced.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


----------



## peep

tvsram1992 said:


> Tsunami cannot attack land based deep targets....



nice swipe there 

but


----------



## The enlightened

Jon Snow said:


> I think the AESA is the Zhuk AE. The IAF was not impressed with this radar in the MMRCA trials but the russians had promised an improved version (FGA 35) with higher range (upto 200km) and doubling the number of targets tracked(to 60). However the FGA 35 was made for the mig 35 ( 700mm nose cone ) - for it to be used on the Su 30MKI the radar will be scaled up to the size of its nose( 960mm) thereby greatly increasing the number of AESA modules and increasing range as well. We can expect the flanker version of the FGA 35 to have range of 280 -300km for 5m2 targets or around 180-200km for small fighters like F 16s(which is very good). So I dont think we need to worry about a sub par radar on the MKI.


Su 30MKI has a big inherent weakness, it's RCS. So when you think about it's Radar the next time remember that it will need to have a massive, massive advantage through it's detection capabilities[Radars or IRST or anything else] unless someone finds ways to jam future AESA radars.
I mean even Irbis-E a 'hybrid' has a detection range of some 400 km. Anything less than that for MKI is just too sad.


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## Abingdonboy

The enlightened said:


> Su 30MKI has a big inherent weakness, it's RCS. So when you think about it's Radar the next time remember that it will need to have a massive, massive advantage through it's detection capability unless someone finds ways to jam future AESA radars.
> I mean even Irbis-E a 'hybrid' has a detection range of some 400 km. Anything less than that for MKI is just too sad.



Very true, this is partly why SUPER-30 MKI UPG has been envisaged. A powerful AESA radar is to be incorporated not to mention a completely new advanced weapons package and significant RAM coatings. Just good that Rafele will also be inducted to perfectly compliment the MKI.


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## kingdurgaking

The enlightened said:


> Su 30MKI has a big inherent weakness, it's RCS. So when you think about it's Radar the next time remember that it will need to have a massive, massive advantage through it's detection capabilities[Radars or IRST or anything else] unless someone finds ways to jam future AESA radars.
> I mean even Irbis-E a 'hybrid' has a detection range of some 400 km. Anything less than that for MKI is just too sad.



Not Sure why every one is talking about RCS of 4+ generation fighter... our neighbour hood doesnt have a stealthy plains inducted.. and it will take atleast 5 yrs to induct and so there will be a gap of only 2 yrs to induct 5th generation fighters.. and PLAAF will not be stupid enough to wage a war that soon as it will take nearly half a decade to master there machine and use it at will... so both PLAAF and IAF will have proper 5th gen fighters at the same time.. so coming back to MKI it is designed in such a way that the present fighters in the neighborhood arsenal will be deterred by it.. it will make sure that no other planes come close to it just like F-15 does for USAF... 

as such RCS is not a factor for 4th gen fighters.. the current radars are enough to locate enemy craft at a tremendous distance

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## sancho

lepziboy said:


> hey guys I`m sorry if I may sound dumb.But what makes Rafale better than Eurofighter? Don`t get me wrong I 1st voted for Eurofighter then rafale.But i dont get the details why is it better.I only know it has better A2G



- true multi role capablitly, the biggest difference to EF
- more cost-effective compared to EF, be it unit cost or operational costs
- combat proven and at a higher development stage than EF
- the way better hardpoint layout (5 wet stations, dedicated pod stations)
- more advanced techs, especially the avionics
- passive detection and targeting capability
- unique advantages of AASM and MICA


For India in particular you could also add:

- experience and commonality with Mirage 2000s
- capabilitywise exactly what IAF was searching between MKI and LCA
- a logical option for IN
- the already available relations of French and Indian companies
- independence and reliability that France and Dassault offers

For India the whole package that Rafale offered was the best!




Kazhugu said:


> *@sancho...
> 
> will we be getting the scalp and the taurus standoff missiles from mbda for rafale ?*


*

Scalp is on offer for sure, possibly even for the upgraded Mirage 2000s, Taurus wa available mainly for EF and Gripen.




The enlightened said:



Source please.
How does Mig 35 tech amount to RCS reduction on the flanker.

Click to expand...


There is no tech that will reduce the RCS, but replacing reflecting parts with composites and mainly adding RAM materials will be the biggest improvements. The Mig is said to have reduced it's RCS up to 4 times, compared to older Migs this way and that's the same way why the Su 35 has a lower RCS compared to older Su 27/30s.
If MKI gets a simliar RCS reduction, combined with a very long range AESA radar and the advantage of not carrying external fuel tanks, it will remain to have a edge over most possible competitiors in BVR.*

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## sancho

Oscar said:


> The best they can accomplish is something close to the F-15SE..
> But the Flanker is a large behemoth with flat surfaces at angles all over the place. A difficult and probably expensive prospect for RCS reduction.



One of the main advantages that the F15SE has, is that it carries fuel and weapons in the CFTs and not as external. That reduces it's RCS the mosts, besides some new features at the airframe itself. The Flankers already have the advantage of no external fuel tanks, because they have very big internal fuel tanks, now the question is, can the weapons be hided too?
CFTs are not possible imo, since the gears would be blocked, which leaves only a modification to the centerline station or weapon pods like the Silent Hornet has, but I doubt that any of these changes will come now.


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## Archie

Oscar said:


> The best they can accomplish is something close to the F-15SE..
> But the Flanker is a large behemoth with flat surfaces at angles all over the place. A difficult and probably expensive prospect for RCS reduction.



You bet
The cost of upgrading first 50 Su30MKI to Super 30 Standard will cost Rs 10800 Crore or roughly 42 Million USD each
The upgrade includes the following

Upgrade of Bars PESA Radar to AESA Radar
Higher Thrust Engines
Mayawi EW Suite developeb along with Israel
Structural Modifications to incorporate Brahmos Cruise Missiles 
Update to avionics and Mission Computers , bringing it to the level of Last Tranche of 42 Su30MKI which was ordered in 2011 and will be delivered in 2014
And Finally the RCS Reduction ( Though the level of RCS Reduction is not known but Looking at the fact that Mig29SMT upgrade has resulted in RCS Reduction to the tune of 60% , we can expect a similar reduction , Though I still feel that it will be difficult to Reduce the RCS of MKI to below 3-4 Sqm )

Though Thankfully the upgrade of remaining 180 Su30NKI will not be as costly coz ( they will cost 25-30 million USD each) 

They will not incorporate a Higher Thrust engine , and will not Have structural modifications to carry Brahmos becoz only the first 50 and last 42 Su30MKI are planned to carry Brahmos


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## 500

kingdurgaking said:


> as such RCS is not a factor for 4th gen fighters.. the current radars are enough to locate enemy craft at a tremendous distance


Not really.

F-16A, for example can detect 5m2 fighter at 72 km. That means Rafale with reduced RCS (lets say 3m2) will be detected at *63 km*, while Su-30 with RCS of 15 m2 will be detected at *95 km*. i.e. 1.5 times - thats very serious. JF-17's radar I believe has similar ranges. 

When it comes to detection near the ground ranges will decrease 1.5 times at least: some *40 km* for Rafale and *60 km* for Su-30.

F-16 block 50 will detect Rafale at *85 km* and Su-30 at *128 km* in clear sky and *55 km* and *85 km* respectively near the ground.


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## Abingdonboy

Are you ready for this:


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## praveen007

Abingdonboy said:


> Are you ready for this:


.
*Yes, I am.
But................
are you ready for World's Biggest French Kiss.*
.

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## lepziboy

Old but still interesting

A Stealthier Rafale?
Posted by Bill Sweetman at 4/5/2010 5:30 AM CDT
Our colleagues at Air & Cosmos report that the French government is funding a demonstration of improved stealth technology for the Dassault Rafale fighter, with a focus on active cancellation techniques. The story itself is not online but is being discussed at the Key Military Forum. 



Dassault

Active cancellation means preventing a radar from detecting a target by firing back a deception signal with the same frequency as the reflection, but precisely one-half wavelength out of phase with it. Result: the returned energy reaching the radar has no frequency and can't be detected. 

It's quite as difficult as it sounds. Some reports have suggested that the so called SP-3 or ZSR-62 "radar jamming device" planned in the early days of the B-2 program was an active cancellation system. It did not work and was scrapped in 1987-88. In 2005, Northrop Grumman paid $62 million to settle a False Claims Act case involving the system. 

This may not be the first French attempt to implement AC on the Rafale. At the Paris air show in 1997, I interviewed a senior engineer at what was then Dassault Electronique, about the Rafale's Spectra jamming system. He remarked that Spectra used "stealthy jamming modes that not only have a saturating effect, but make the aircraft invisible... There are some very specific techniques to obtain the signature of a real LO aircraft." 

"You mean active cancellation?" I asked. The engineer suddenly looked like someone who deeply regretted what he had just said, and declined any further comment. (As Hobbes once put it after pouncing on an unsuspecting Calvin: "We tigers live for moments like that."*)

The fact that a new demonstrator is being contemplated suggests that the technology may not have been up to the job the first time round - but since AC depends on electronics and processing, that picture may have changed. MBDA and Thales, which absorbed Dassault Electronique and is now the prime contractor on Spectra, have since confirmed that they are working on active cancellation for missiles. 

The whole Spectra program has been a major venture, including the construction of four new indoor test ranges, including the colossal Solange RCS range discussed in Ares in 2007. That facility will probably play a major role in the new demonstrator program.

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## lepziboy

tvsram1992 said:


> Tsunami cannot attack land based deep targets....



its a flying tsunami

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## Jason bourne

> Tsunami cannot attack land based deep targets....


havent u seen the movie 2012


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## KS

So atlast it has been the Raffy...


Dream come true for an ardent Rafale supporter.


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## Birbal

500 said:


> At high altitudes you have very high radar detection and missile ranges, so you can easily fire 2-3 missiles before entering WVR so chances to enter dog fight are virtually zero.
> 
> And even after u enter WVR fight at high altitude ur missile range will be more than enough at any angles. Especially if u have high energy missile like MICA.



I'm not talking about WVR maneuvering. I'm talking about maneuver efficiency at high altitudes. TVC helps reduce drag during high altitude maneuvers, which increases both aircraft range and the ability to evade BVR missiles.

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## 500

Birbal said:


> I'm not talking about WVR maneuvering. I'm talking about maneuver efficiency at high altitudes. TVC helps reduce drag during high altitude maneuvers, which increases both aircraft range


You dont need maneuvering there. Have u seen TVC on MiG-31 - the dedicated high altitude interceptor?



> and the ability to evade BVR missiles.


Then you just break down and push max g.


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## sudhir007

Fighter jets: Bomb bays to Delhi | The Economist

&#8220;WE&#8217;VE been waiting for this day for 30 years,&#8221; said Nicolas Sarkozy, France&#8217;s president, on the news this week that India had gone into exclusive negotiations with Dassault Aviation, a French firm, to buy 126 of its Rafale warplanes for $15 billion-20 billion. France has not sold a single Rafale overseas, and until this week the plane&#8217;s future looked iffy. Shares in Dassault Aviation soared by 18.5%.

The loser, ironically, was the Rafale&#8217;s cousin, the Eurofighter Typhoon, built by a consortium led by EADS, Europe&#8217;s defence and aerospace champion, which is jointly controlled by Germany and France. EADS itself owns a 46% stake in Dassault, a legacy of earlier French government meddling, so its own shares inched up on the news.

Dassault won its exclusive-bidder status by offering the lower price. Both European jets had satisfied the technical requirements of the Indian Air Force, which wants zippier planes to guard against China&#8217;s Chengdu J-10 combat aircraft and Pakistan&#8217;s ageing American F-16s. In tests over the Himalayas and the Rajasthan desert, India had eliminated the F-16 and F/A-18, the Russian MiG-35 and Swedish JAS 39 Gripen from the process during 2009-10.

The capabilities of both the Rafale and the Eurofighter were on display during the Libyan war. The Typhoon is the superior air-to-air interceptor. The Rafale switches more easily into a ground-attack mode.

After seeing the Rafale rejected repeatedly over the past decade, by the Netherlands, South Korea, Singapore, Morocco, the United Arab Emirates and Switzerland, the French were desperate to win a contract. The plane was becoming a costly embarrassment, especially for Mr Sarkozy, who has long promised a sale to Brazil but has nothing to show for his efforts. Some even wondered if the Rafale could survive with France as its only customer.

Now Dassault must seal the contract with India in a series of detailed negotiations over technology transfer and other conditions. India is known for switching to other bidders before finally signing a contract. &#8220;The Indians will now squeeze the French hard,&#8221; says an executive on the Typhoon side. That said, India has used Dassault&#8217;s Mirage jets for many years, and last year signed a $2.4 billion deal with Dassault, Thales and MBDA, two other French defence firms, to upgrade its French planes.

For the Eurofighter consortium the Indian deal is crucial too. David Cameron, Britain&#8217;s prime minister, said this week that the Typhoon is &#8220;far better&#8221; than the Rafale. Sales of the Typhoon, which went into service in 2004, have disappointed. The Eurofighter member governments (Germany, Britain, Italy and Spain) have all ordered planes, but only Austria and Saudi Arabia have bought them from outside the group.

Eurofighter may now lower its price to rejoin the bidding for India&#8217;s contract. It may also offer India the carrot of equal status as a partner in the programme, alongside the four European nations. Eurofighter says it will be helped by what is turning out to be a transparent procurement process. Whereas previous Indian arms deals have been dogged by accusations of corruption, this one has so far been exemplary, says an executive involved.

Having opted out of the Eurofighter project in 1985, France&#8217;s determination to go it alone in defence matters has led to the spectacle of two expensive European combat planes competing for the same big contract. &#8220;Europe should not have two jets fighting each other,&#8221; says Zafar Khan, a defence-industry analyst at Société Générale, a French bank. The next generation of European fighter jets, he says, should be a more co-ordinated effort.

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## sudhir007

A simple matter of buying a fighter jet - Views - livemint.com

On Tuesday, a decade after India decided to equip itself with a new fighter jet&#8212;replacing the MiG-21 &#8212;the process acquired a sense of finality. For all practical purposes, the French Dassault Rafale is the government&#8217;s choice. Each step of the journey&#8212;from the initial request for information (RFI) in 2001 to the announcement of Dassault as the lowest bidder&#8212;highlights interesting weaknesses in the country&#8217;s defence equipment procurement process in particular and strategic thinking in general.

Consider the timeline first. By early 1990s, the backbone of the Indian Air Force (IAF), the MiG-21, had outlived its utility. Apart from outdated avionics and weapon systems, the large number of crashes led to doubts about the jet&#8217;s airworthiness. By that time, the Pakistan air force had been operating F-16s for at least six to seven years. The MiG-21 is no match for the F-16. Yet, it took another decade for the RFI to be issued. In all, more than a quarter century will have elapsed between the realization that new planes were required and the first flight of an IAF Rafale across the Indian sky.

That is not all. By the time the full complement of 126 aircraft is in place, the Rafale would be an &#8220;outdated&#8221; plane. Early last year, China carried out the first flight of its fifth-generation, stealth fighter, the Chengdu J-20. The J-20 is expected to be inducted in the Chinese air force by 2020. Like the MiG-21 vs F-16 comparison, equating the Rafale with the J-20 is, perhaps, unfair. But that&#8217;s the point missed in the entire acquisition process. A country does not buy weapons for current use&#8212;those requirements have to be met by the existing stock of weapons&#8212;but for future contingencies. That requires careful, and imaginative, planning about future scenarios. While the country&#8217;s armed forces&#8212;the users of weapons&#8212;are keenly aware about these developments, the buyer&#8212;the government&#8212;is in a time warp. By 2020, India will need a different type of fighter jet&#8212;a fifth-generation plane. While India has begun the process to acquire a fifth-generation fighter, it is an open question if by 2020, that plane will be in service with the IAF.

This problem could have been avoided easily during the ongoing process. The US had offered India the F-16 and F-18 planes as medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA). India rejected those aircraft and for good reasons. With a little bit of imagination, it could have tweaked the MMRCA contract, imparting it a futuristic direction. The year 2005 marked the high-tide of the Indo-US relations. The civilian nuclear deal had just been agreed on; the countries were truly on the path to a strategic relationship&#8212;unlike the phoney expression it has become now&#8212;and high-level political negotiations on defence ties would have imparted it greater depth. Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and the country&#8217;s national security leadership could have held a sustained dialogue and asked the Americans for the F-22 Raptor&#8212;a fifth-generation fighter. Whether the Americans gave us those planes or not, an effort should have been made to get them and the ball thrown in the US&#8217; court. Had that happened, it would have given India an air power edge and lifted it above the ruck of countries in the region. What needs emphasis here is that chasing equipment made in the US does not mean slavish acceptance of what it dishes out (clearly the F-16 and F-18 are goods past their sell-by date) but getting the most out of such deals. If buying jets from the US helps India further its political interests, then they should have been bought. Period.

That, however, would have required geopolitical imagination and discarding doubts about friendship with the US. Historically, India has never had that kind of leadership. India simply does not have the institutions that enable the grooming of such leaders. The National Security Council&#8212;established in 1998&#8212;is now another sarkari department. The one place where such ideas could have flourished&#8212;universities&#8212;seldom produce scholarly work that can spur strategic imagination&#8212;in leaders and citizens alike. The contrast with China is marked. While the latter rediscovers its ancient strategic roots (see Ancient Chinese Thought, Modern Chinese Power by Yan Xuetong, Princeton University Press 2011), powers ahead with its defence modernization plans and, in general, exhibits a confident worldview, India is busy creating roadblocks on the path to its progress. Even relatively simple matters such as sharing river waters with Bangladesh have been blocked by regional leaders like Mamata Banerjee. It is one thing to hanker for a position on the global high table, but an entirely different matter to create conditions to achieve that goal.

To be fair, it is easy to overlook the fact that it is for the first time in two millennia that India&#8212;as an independent entity, that is&#8212;is enjoying geographic unity, something that has been imagined culturally for long but has existed politically for less than 70 years. Under these conditions, the required imagination&#8212;at the level where it is needed most, among policymakers&#8212;will always be in deficit. At the operational level, it leads to a sense of timelessness: the false belief that adversaries will exhibit behaviour similar to one&#8217;s own; that perspective plans on paper will automatically bear fruit and, generally, that opportunities always abound. The acquisition of aircraft whose utility in the future will be limited is only one aspect of this much greater weakness.

---------- Post added at 11:31 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:30 AM ----------

With defence purchases on the rise, the policy on offsets calls for clarity - The Economic Times

Policy clarity on defence offsets and indigenisation is of vital import, now that several big-ticket military hardware purchases from abroad have been finalised of late, the latest being the $10.4-billion deal to procure 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) over a 10-year period from France's Dassault Rafale. Clear-cut norms for offsets are essential to boost domestic capability and manufactures of defence equipment. An offsets policy was first made specific in the Defence Procurement Procedure of 2005, requiring that vendors executing defence contracts worth .

Rs 300 crore or more source at least 30% of the total value from here in India, in the form of sub-systems and products. It was also envisaged that offsets could be met via investments in Indian defence JVs, or by funding research and development in the sector. But in the last five years, we seem to have had a new annual revised policy on offsets, with the criteria steadily loosened and watered down. So apart from the initial policy of "direct offsets," the procurement procedure of 2011 also has provision for "indirect offsets," permitting vendors to meet offset requirements by funding, say, civil aviation or training programmes. Such wider interpretation of the offsets policy is questionable if they are unlikely to shore up domestic technological and manufacturing capability.

Reportedly, the first lot of 18 MMRCA would be directly imported from Dassault, and the rest 108 aircraft manufactured in India in partnership with domestic firms. It is entirely possible that sticking to a rigorous offsets plan would add to overall costs, initially. As a rule, green-field projects set up across borders tend to be dearer and timeconsuming. But the whole idea of offsets is to augment capability and the objective ought to be to boost indigenous design and manufacturing for next-generation defence equipment. Reportedly, sections of the defence ministry view offsets as a procedural hurdle. Instead, a more integrative strategy and coordination with defence production are warranted. In defence matters, eschewing long-term strategic thinking is not an option.

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## davidson

Can Mrca beat China's J20?


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## Capt.Popeye

davidson said:


> Can Mrca beat China's J20?



Can Harry Potter (on his broom) beat a Jinn (on his magic carpet)?

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## davidson

Capt.Popeye said:


> Can Harry Potter (on his broom) beat a Jinn (on his magic carpet)?



What?? Just Answer me


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## notsuperstitious

davidson said:


> What?? Just Answer me



Di Wen Sun, get out more.


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## KS

sudhir007 said:


> .......Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and the country&#8217;s national security leadership could have held a sustained dialogue and asked the Americans for the F-22 Raptor&#8212;a fifth-generation fighter. Whether the Americans gave us those planes or not, an effort should have been made to get them and the ball thrown in the US&#8217; court. ........
> 
> 
> A simple matter of buying a fighter jet - Views - livemint.com



This dumbo (Sidharth Singh) is the Editor of Live mint. Awesome Editor indeed !


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## Agnostic_Indian

davidson said:


> Can Mrca beat China's J20?


though i doubt the intention..the answer is No..and there is no need also...we will have fgfa to counter j 20.


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## kingdurgaking

500 said:


> Not really.
> 
> F-16A, for example can detect 5m2 fighter at 72 km. That means Rafale with reduced RCS (lets say 3m2) will be detected at *63 km*, while Su-30 with RCS of 15 m2 will be detected at *95 km*. i.e. 1.5 times - thats very serious. JF-17's radar I believe has similar ranges.
> 
> When it comes to detection near the ground ranges will decrease 1.5 times at least: some *40 km* for Rafale and *60 km* for Su-30.
> 
> F-16 block 50 will detect Rafale at *85 km* and Su-30 at *128 km* in clear sky and *55 km* and *85 km* respectively near the ground.



which clearly shows every 4th gen plane can detect other 4 th generation plane before it enters the missile no escape zone... so how does a RCS matter now tell me?

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## sancho

KS said:


> This dumbo (Sidharth Singh) is the Editor of Live mint. Awesome Editor indeed !



Livemint was also the source of the baseless rumors about EF beeing L1 and selected, so a little bias was obvious. I find the British and German reactions to the selection kind of interesting. The Brits are blaming the Germans mainly (besides us), Germans are saying India just wanted a cheap fighter (although reports hints of just $5 millions difference, which would be surprisingly close) and both are saying that the deal is not done yet. It shows how desperate the countries and the EF consortium must be to get a deal and divert their orders, after loosing Japan.


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## sancho

kingdurgaking said:


> which clearly shows every 4th gen plane can detect other 4 th generation plane before it enters the missile no escape zone... so how does a RCS matter now tell me?



Not necessarily, because that are head on head engagements. An MKI will detect a the F16 from way greater distances and will bring itself in a position where it will stay out of the opponents field of view, while closing in.
Also most airforces will visually identify the opponent first and then fire the missile, to avoid friendly fire, so there are many points that have to be taken to account in BVR than maximim detection range or missile range.


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## KS

sancho said:


> Livemint was also the source of the baseless rumors about EF beeing L1 and selected, so a little bias was obvious. I find the British and German reactions to the selection kind of interesting. The Brits are blaming the Germans mainly (besides us), Germans are saying India just wanted a cheap fighter (although reports hints of just $5 millions difference, which would be surprisingly close) and both are saying that the deal is not done yet. It shows how desperate the countries and the EF consortium must be to get a deal and divert their orders, after loosing Japan.



Sancho $5 million per unit translates into about about $ 600 million for about 120 planes and considering the integration,logistics cost will be even more and is by no means a small amount.


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## Black Widow

kingdurgaking said:


> which clearly shows every 4th gen plane can detect other 4 th generation plane before it enters the missile no escape zone... so how does a RCS matter now tell me?




Exactly same question I raised in some of the forum couple of month ago. RCS doesn't matter for 4th gen fighters. Assume one fighter having RCS of 0.0001m2. Now load some external weapon on its wing. The RCS will go 3-5m2. Under no circumstance we can make use of low RCS on 4th gen fighter planes.


I remember Gambit once clarified this problem beautifully in one of the forum.

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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> Not necessarily, because that are head on head engagements. An MKI will detect a the F16 from way greater distances and will bring itself in a position where it will stay out of the opponents field of view, while closing in.
> Also most airforces will visually identify the opponent first and then fire the missile, to avoid friendly fire, so there are many points that have to be taken to account in BVR than maximim detection range or missile range.


 
Dude first of all i am not telling who will detect whom first.. i am just mentioning RCS is not a factor for 4++ gen fighters. Even if the RCS in clean config is less, the missiles loaded will shoot the RCS atleast more than 7 m2 depending on the loading.. so enemies no something is beeping on there radar monitor.. 

Second to identify it is an enemy, there is IFF and AWACS which will do the job.. so the chance for a friendly fire is very very low ... This you can relate it to Red flag


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## Hello_10

davidson said:


> Can Mrca beat China's J20?



Sir, it is foolish to compare a working aircraft with the one which in development. I had to face a logical question a year before, &#8220;How can we say 5th gen stealth F22 is a capable aircraft which was developed by US in 90s while the same US is facing so many problems for their new 5th gen F35/ JSF?&#8221; then we concluded, &#8220;As F22 certainly had stealth features, US has it in the number somewhere close to 200 but as this aircraft would also have the similar problems like F35, obviously, they neither have this aircraft in large number and at the same time IOC of their new 5th gen F35 is delayed to 2018, the &#8216;earliest&#8217;, to fix these problems. I even heard that they are now going back to design phase of F35/ JSF and starting it again, which has extended it IOC to at least 2018 &#8221; 

And at the present, it is found that the US&#8217;s latest 5th gen F35 would be consistently beaten by SU35/ SU30MKI in dog fight. neither F35 can move nor run once it will get caught by SU35BM or Super Sukhoi 30, (check my previous post with reference), while these two Russian aircrafts will also have many stealth features after 4-5 years. And the news we are getting that Omni role Rafale is first rated as the best aircraft for A2G/ multi role operations, and at the same time it will be capable enough to dodge any incoming missile in a2a dog fight also, (like we have a report by AUstralian scientists in my previous posts), a true 'Omni role' feature of Rafale. Rafale has also performed excellent in different a2a dog fights in air shows and it is also believed to beat the high end air superiority aircrafts easily 

And now we have to fit J20 with this analysis, then here, we have seen publicity of F35 for last over 10 years and now it looks like a crap while US has spent over $300bn on this project till now, then how can we believe J20, whose first flight was just a year before, can see its induction by 2020? *Neither US&#8217;s arm industry is backward to China, definitely not, nor China could still reach that level of development of J20 where US is facing real challenge with F35 right now?* Hence, in today&#8217;s world, with stealth features of Rafale, F15SE, SU35BM, with future upgrades of EFT Typhoon also, hopefully we will see only these four aircrafts as the four best aircrafts in the world till 2025/30 and afterwards. As, first we doubt &#8216;hidden&#8217; capabilities of F22 and then we still have to wait for at least a decade for J20 and PAK FA to have clearer idea about them, like how F35 have passed over a decade of testing and need one more decade, if .............. (check my previous posts with reference of Australian air combat analysts)

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## kingdurgaking

^^ Really an excellent thought.... very logical... 

But need to add one more thing F-22 is a 2win engine and F-35 is a single engine... secondly technology aspect in F-35 is far more advanced and densely packed compared to F-22. The stealth itself is not reused from F-22 but a new one is tried to iron out the issues which F-22 has... F-35 is being developed to have a very low life cycle.. as compared to F-22 because F-22 is developed keeping cold war in mind while F-35 is for US security and power projection


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## Hello_10

kingdurgaking said:


> ^^ Really an excellent thought.... very logical...
> 
> But need to add one more thing F-22 is a 2win engine and F-35 is a single engine... secondly technology aspect in F-35 is far more advanced and densely packed compared to F-22. The stealth itself is not reused from F-22 but a new one is tried to iron out the issues which F-22 has... F-35 is being developed to have a very low life cycle.. as compared to F-22 because *F-22 is developed keeping cold war in mind *while F-35 is for US security and power projection



yes its clear that F22 would only have stealth tech but would be lacking many other combat capabilities, at the same time US is still facing so many problems with their new 5th gen F35 that now they are going back to even design phase to fix the problems they have during operations????????? J20 will face the real challenge associated with 5th gen stealth tech from 2016/ 17 when they will find that they would now go back to design phase again and start, like this F35. Copying/ cloning aircrafts and doing something by ourselves is different, specially if it is a 5th gen aircraft which has consumed a heavy amount of the best arm industry of the world, US, but still no result. 

We would see Rafale with stealth feature, F15SE, SU35BM/ stealth SU30MKI, with upgraded EFT Typhoon as the four leading aircrafts till 2025/ 30, highly likely&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;


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## ptltejas

I think for stealth F 22 is best and in active inventory. Stealth and aerodynamic j 20 is best perhaps then any air craft (as the model of j 20 rc(remote controll) working on best as one clkp of RCj 20 youtube tell its best aerodynamic. How we can under estimate capacity of f 22 or j 2) stealth feature. They are far better than 4 gen.
Under estimate this killing machines is not good Mr. Hello 10


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## 500

kingdurgaking said:


> which clearly shows every 4th gen plane can detect other 4 th generation plane before it enters the missile no escape zone... so how does a RCS matter now tell me?


63 km is well within no escape zone. Also its always good to detect before to prepare and chose position. Also when u employ EW detection range will decrease even further. Its much easier to hide small RCS target with countermeasures. For example modernized MiG-21 are very hard targets when they employ EW, because of their small RCS.

Finally reduced RCS also seriously (about 1.5 times) decrease reaction time of SAMs. Thats often can be the difference between life and death. With EW difference will be even bigger.


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## ptltejas

I think EW jtself give evidence of its existence at particular place. The detectors find the frequency and place by aplying trignometery.


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## The enlightened

Hello_10 said:


> &#8220;How can we say 5th gen stealth F22 is a capable aircraft which was developed by US in 90s


Are you a kid. So what if F22 was made in the 90&#8217;s. Is 90&#8217;s a bad period for aircraft[shani or mangal or something]. Even our beloved MKI was made in 90&#8217;s, Does that make it a bad aircraft. 


> And at the present, it is found that the US&#8217;s latest 5th gen F35 would be consistently beaten by SU35/ SU30MKI in dog fight.


Flankers will not even get to the merge with F35 let alone outmanouver it. And even if they do, what do you think High of Boresight missiles are for.



> Hence, in today&#8217;s world, with stealth features of Rafale, F15SE, SU35BM, with future upgrades of EFT Typhoon also, hopefully we will see only these four aircrafts as the four best aircrafts in the world till 2025/30 and afterwards





> F35 for last over 10 years and now it looks like a crap while US has spent over $300bn on this project till now,


These, for example say a lot about your maturity and general knowledge about Fighter Jets. My advice- do a lot more homework before you post again on these threads.


> (like we have a report by AUstralian scientists in my previous posts)


Have the Aussies done a detailed assesment about the performance and are in the know of every piece of technology the F35 posseses. Grow up, kid.


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## Vasily Zaytsev

* Bhai Log ...!!!! ............Khoosha Khabar ................. MMRCA ke Paise ka intezaam ho gaya hai .................. *





* Thanks to the Supreme Court of India ......They have squashed all 122 licenses in 2G case and asked the GOI to re auction them within next four months.

So if all goes well then in next four months then government will be able to collect more than enough money to finance 200 Rafales at one go . 

Pranav Mukarjee will be jumping with joy with this order which would take care of his most of fiscal deficit worries.

Supreme Court of India ...............Jai hooooooooooooooooo !!!!*

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## Hello_10

The enlightened said:


> Are you a kid. So what if F22 was made in the 90&#8217;s. Is 90&#8217;s a bad period for aircraft[shani or mangal or something]. Even our beloved MKI was made in 90&#8217;s, Does that make it a bad aircraft.
> 
> Flankers will not even get to the merge with F35 let alone outmanouver it. And even if they do, what do you think High of Boresight missiles are for.
> 
> 
> 
> These, for example say a lot about your maturity and general knowledge about Fighter Jets. My advice- do a lot more homework before you post again on these threads.
> 
> Have the Aussies done a detailed assesment about the performance and are in the know of every piece of technology the F35 posseses. Grow up, kid.



first, MKI of 90's and F16/Mig29 of 80's have proved their performance on field while no one knows about F22 while a similar type US's F35 is still not active, means no guarantee whether it will be said to be of any decade. 

second, if defense's Air Combat Analysts of a developed country like Australia, which is also member of G20 economies, say something then it would mean more than what any great internet warrior says including you also, isnt it? 

And, as most of the key techs of 90&#8217;s F22 are &#8216;unknown&#8217;, (old and it is no more in production any more), and also the condition of US&#8217;s latest 5th gen F35 we can see right now, as it would now be in production line but its IOC has now been extended to fix few basic problems? then here, *if you can trust me then I can tell you that you will read the similar news about J20 also after just 5-6 years from now, as both are similar type 5th gen aircrafts, just one has single engine and other one has twine.* *As, It will be either US who will clear IOC for F35, or, China will also make around 100 J20 aircrafts of the type they have tested to have few stealth type aircrafts but their future air defense will not rely on this so called 5th gen stealth aircrafts.*  (similarly how EU doesn&#8217;t have any 5th gen program, as, may be they already know where 5th gen project will be ended up?) 

Measuring performance of aircrafts on paper and on ground is quite different. I have been reading about superiorities of F35/ JSF for last over 7-8 years and the final outcome, its IOC is now delayed for 7-8 years more? I have also worked on designing of material handling and I would say, sometimes developing something new is easier than again going back and start from beginning on the basis of &#8216;ineffective&#8217; experiences. Hence, for the 'first cut', I would also say the same as below, for both F35 and J20 also, (considering J20 a similar type aircraft, 5th gen stealth, which hasn&#8217;t faced those problems yet, which F35 is currently dealing with):



> *Independent air combat analysts from Air Power Australia have also stated that the F-35 is not capable of facing high end threats; that what will be delivered (if it ever arrives) will be obsolete; and that the F-35 is not affordable or sustainable.*
> 
> http://www.f-16.net/news_article4416.html

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## The enlightened

> first, MKI of 90's and F16/Mig29 of 80's have proved their performance on field while no one knows about F22 while a similar type US's F35 is still not active, means no guarantee whether it will may be said to be of any decade.


So the said F22 is not exactly combat proven and F16/Mig29/Su27's are all supposedly combat proven. But that in no way discounts the capabilities of the Raptor unless you think that USAF has been ranting about the Raptor for all these years for nothing.
It's key tech's may be of the 90's era but they are still better than just about everything you can find on other platforms including your FAV 4- Rafa/Tiffy/Flankie and 'Old' silent Eagle. F22 was designed keeping in mind all the potential threats that could arise from Russia in the coming 2-3 Decades and they have more than succeeded with their goals.


> second, if defense's Air Combat Analysts of a developed country like Australia, which is also member of G20 economies, say something then it would mean more than what any great internet warrior says including you also, isnt it?


Yes, they are but that doesn't mean that you take their word blindly. I am no aviation expert, but there are some things that don't require rocket science, simple common sense would do. And again as I said, these so called experts haven't looked under the hood of the JSF and have no friggin' knowledge about it other than what has been revealed intentionally. As for the rest of your post I think I have given my best in explaining to you some basic fundamental concepts and this is the 4th time I'm trying to explain the same friggin' thing again and now I am done with you for now. Later.
And since you have been following Defense news from the 90's, maybe you remember the story about C17, right?


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## Agnostic_Indian

though fifth gen filters are not war proven American and Chinese have put it in combat situations with their war proven jets and other Sam systems...so it would be much close to a real war situation...


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## kingdurgaking

500 said:


> 63 km is well within no escape zone. Also its always good to detect before to prepare and chose position. Also when u employ EW detection range will decrease even further. Its much easier to hide small RCS target with countermeasures. For example modernized MiG-21 are very hard targets when they employ EW, because of their small RCS.
> 
> Finally reduced RCS also seriously (about 1.5 times) decrease reaction time of SAMs. Thats often can be the difference between life and death. With EW difference will be even bigger.



I guess the best AIM 120D and meteor will have a no escape zone within 60 KM for sure.. secondly the RCS you are talking is not a fixed one and it varies when you carry a weapon under the wings and belly... because the fins on missiles , the missile surface the pylons and the drop tanks will definitely increases RCS tremendously ...

and your claim is on clean configuration which does not apply when they carry a missile


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## Hello_10

The enlightened said:


> So the said F22 is not exactly combat proven and F16/Mig29/Su27's are all supposedly combat proven. But that in no way discounts the capabilities of the Raptor unless you think that USAF has been ranting about the Raptor for all these years for nothing.
> It's key tech's may be of the 90's era but they are still better than just about everything you can find on other platforms including your FAV 4- Rafa/Tiffy/Flankie and 'Old' silent Eagle. F22 was designed keeping in mind all the potential threats that could arise from Russia in the coming 2-3 Decades and they have more than succeeded with their goals.
> 
> Yes, they are but that doesn't mean that you take their word blindly. I am no aviation expert, but there are some things that don't require rocket science, simple common sense would do. And again as I said, these so called experts haven't looked under the hood of the JSF and have no friggin' knowledge about it other than what has been revealed intentionally. As for the rest of your post I think I have given my best in explaining to you some basic fundamental concepts and *this is the 4th time I'm trying to explain the same friggin' thing again and now I am done with you for now.* Later.
> And since you have been following Defense news from the 90's, maybe you remember the story about C17, right?



I too don&#8217;t have more to say than what I have already told you . And Im agreed that we can&#8217;t blindly support any expert even if he/ she is from any top developed country and gave his/ her opinion to his government. But, I was responding to that certain gentleman who wanted to compare J20 with Rafale (Rafale with stealth features itself), with just one argument that first J20 is in development and second report from the best arm industry, the US, for their similar 5th gen aircrafts isn&#8217;t coming very impressive. So, its foolish to compare a tested/ working aircraft, Rafale, with that which is in the &#8216;early stage&#8217; of development, the J20, thats it 

But I too repeat that the chances are at least 50% that PAK FA, J20, F35 will come in operation, even if it may take 2020 for F35 and 2022/25 for FAK FA/ FGFA & J20. But I repeat, it is also likely that these countries may make these 5th gen aircrafts in limited numbers only due to its limited capabilities other than just stealth technology, similar to F22 of US. lets see 

and, we are just talking about the &#8216;possibilities&#8217; only. as even the professionals working on F35 and J20 projects don&#8217;t know how they will be ended up after 8-10 years. so we gotto wait for at least 8 to 10 years to have clearer idea, thanks

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## itaskol

what will be the new name of rafale in india?
my suggestion is " garuda". 
a supernatural eaglelike being that serves as Vishnu's mount, eat dragons every day.

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## R-DB

itaskol said:


> what will be the new name of rafale in india?
> my suggestion is " garuda".
> a supernatural eaglelike being that serves as Vishnu's mount, *eat dragons every day*.



you are correct


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## R-DB

---------- Post added at 05:23 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:21 AM ----------







---------- Post added at 05:23 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:23 AM ----------

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## sancho

kingdurgaking said:


> Dude first of all i am not telling who will detect whom first.. i am just mentioning RCS is not a factor for 4++ gen fighters. Even if the RCS in clean config is less, the missiles loaded will shoot the RCS atleast more than 7 m2 depending on the loading.. so enemies no something is beeping on there radar monitor..
> 
> Second to identify it is an enemy, there is IFF and AWACS which will do the job.. so the chance for a friendly fire is very very low ... This you can relate it to Red flag



Of course it is, because the earlier you can detect your opponent, the earlier you can avioid beeing detected and get into position for the first shot! The RCS of a fighter is always highly debatable, but when 2 fighters that carries the same ammount of fuel tanks and missiles in A2A config, the one with a lower RCS in clean config should have an advantage don't you think? Also a fighter radar has only a limited field of view, so only in this field of view you are able to detect an enemy and the further you are at the outer areas of the FOV, the less capable will be the detection and a lower RCS will be even more of advantage.

Think about how many IAF fighters today has IFF and how many AWACS aircrafts IAF has, now add the vast area IAF has to protect and you will understand that friendly fire is very likely if IAF will not visually identify the target first. Red Flag was even one of the key reasons why IAF now upgrades it's fighters with IFF transponders, because they learned how limited you capabilities will be, when you have "something" (like you said) on your radar, but has no other possibility to identify it or link with the AWACS. Full AWACS and IFF capability will be part of the netcentric capabilities Indian forces are aiming to, but that will not be available in full fledge until 2020 possibly.
Even NATO with AWACS and common data links and IFF normally identify their targets first before shooting and the long range visual ID is one of the key advantages of Rafale with FSO btw!

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## Birbal

sancho said:


> Of course it is, because the earlier you can detect your opponent, the earlier you can avioid beeing detected and get into position for the first shot! The RCS of a fighter is always highly debatable, but when 2 fighters that carries the same ammount of fuel tanks and missiles in A2A config, the one with a lower RCS in clean config should have an advantage don't you think? Also a fighter radar has only a limited field of view, so only in this field of view you are able to detect an enemy and the further you are at the outer areas of the FOV, the less capable will be the detection and a lower RCS will be even more of advantage.
> 
> Think about how many IAF fighters today has IFF and how many AWACS aircrafts IAF has, now add the vast area IAF has to protect and you will understand that friendly fire is very likely if IAF will not visually identify the target first. Red Flag was even one of the key reasons why IAF now upgrades it's fighters with IFF transponders, because they learned how limited you capabilities will be, when you have "something" (like you said) on your radar, but has no other possibility to identify it or link with the AWACS. Full AWACS and IFF capability will be part of the netcentric capabilities Indian forces are aiming to, but that will not be available in full fledge until 2020 possibly.
> Even NATO with AWACS and common data links and IFF normally identify their targets first before shooting and the long range visual ID is one of the key advantages of Rafale with FSO btw!



I think he was pointing out the fact that there's no reason to lower the aircraft RCS beyond a certain point because it will be overshadowed by the missile and fuel tank RCS.


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## praveen007

the game of RC is and can only be played effectly by the plane which have internal bay for Arms and Fuel, other than those nother plane will play it effectivly, as what ever be their RC value in neat clear configuration it will boost to quit high level ones EFT and Armaments are hinged with its hard point.


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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> Of course it is, because the earlier you can detect your opponent, the earlier you can avioid beeing detected and get into position for the first shot! The RCS of a fighter is always highly debatable, but when 2 fighters that carries the same ammount of fuel tanks and missiles in A2A config, the one with a lower RCS in clean config should have an advantage don't you think? Also a fighter radar has only a limited field of view, so only in this field of view you are able to detect an enemy and the further you are at the outer areas of the FOV, the less capable will be the detection and a lower RCS will be even more of advantage.


How is that logic make sense? two with same fuel tank and same A2A missile will be mapped to cleaner RCS?.. buddy RCS increases multiple times when you put them under the wing and will not be equal to cleaner RCS.. if your's and enemy's fighter has cleaner config of 1 and 2 m2 RCS and if you put the missile under belly each will go to 9m2 to 8m2 RCS atleast.. so how do you map that back to 1, 2 m2 RCS .. it is well enough for the fighters to detect each other atleast 150 KM far apart... and how do you position yourself form such far distance? countries like Pakistan and China will come to know when a fighter is in Air atleast 200 KM of radius with there AWACS on Air.. so unless fighters dont have the capability to identify around 50 KM of radar range it make sense... because the moment you position yourself , in war if you have to fight you have to come within no escape zone to fire which makes your aircraft also visible to enemy's radar


> Think about how many IAF fighters today has IFF and how many AWACS aircrafts IAF has, now add the vast area IAF has to protect and you will understand that friendly fire is very likely if IAF will not visually identify the target first. Red Flag was even one of the key reasons why IAF now upgrades it's fighters with IFF transponders, because they learned how limited you capabilities will be, when you have "something" (like you said) on your radar, but has no other possibility to identify it or link with the AWACS. Full AWACS and IFF capability will be part of the netcentric capabilities Indian forces are aiming to, but that will not be available in full fledge until 2020 possibly.
> Even NATO with AWACS and common data links and IFF normally identify their targets first before shooting and the long range visual ID is one of the key advantages of Rafale with FSO btw!



Thats why all the offender aircraft in IAF has been upgraded to have IFF.. now Mig-29 has that remember russia awarded to France.. Mirage does have it, MKI do have it, LCA has it, Only Jaguars i doubt it.. mostly they will be accompanied by Mig-29 or MKI.. so how does it make sense?.. 

In NATO case, lot of countries participate in war and each have there own IFF code so inorder to avoid friendly fire they go and identify the case.... which make sense.. but still they have the NATO channel to communicate and launch missile at far of ranges.. but still to do double check they have visual identification because there enemies dont have a proper 4th gen fighters... if it had been India, China or Pakistan there strategy would be different.. they will definitely loose there birds if they have to do this.. so generally on 1 vs 1 if you take a 4th gen fighters it doesnt make sense to compare RCS...


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## ptltejas

http://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&so...zvQ7bOAYLRQYIiVXA&sig2=bP1gI_Tl09N03hxVhB0h9Q


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## sancho

kingdurgaking said:


> and how do you position yourself form such far distance?



First of all, I don't debate on RCS figures, because these are classified and all the forum talk about it are mainly estimations and not credible. You say a simple AAM will add the RCS so much, while way bigger cruise missiles are generally estimated with a RCS of 1m2 (see Beriev A50 or Saabs Erieye specs for example). Also it depends on many other factors too, FOV, jamming as 500 explained...
Secondly, lets say an MKI detects an enemy, but the from the side, so it's not in the FOV of the enemies radar. The MKI pilot will not shoot at maximum missile range or so, but will keep out of the enemies detection and close it to the no escape zone, identify the target visually or by AWACS for example and then will fire it's missiles.
You are highly mistaken if you think that all air combats will be head on engagements, or that only if a radar has a maximum range of several 100s of Km, that any enemy will be detected in that range too. Only with AWACS support, the fighters will get a full view of the surrounding air space, but limited to their own radars, they will have just a limited situational awareness. That's why AWACS, latest ESM capabilities like Rafale and EF offers, or in future AESA side arrays in Pak Fa / FGFA or Rafale will be a big improvement in the detection capability. The swashplate AESA of EF and Gripen is another example, it increases the field of view and give a fighter that is limited to it's radar alone, way more chances to detect and track targets, while the swashplate design itself is contradictory to the advantages of AESA, because you actually don't have to move the radar anymore, since the beam can be directed to different positions.




kingdurgaking said:


> so unless fighters dont have the capability to identify around 50 KM of radar range it make sense



That's where IRST or optical systems helps. EF and Rafale for example can identify targets up to 40Km with IRST, while FSOs TV channel, especially the new one will increase this range even more. So identification within the no escape zone will be possible.



kingdurgaking said:


> Thats why all the offender aircraft in IAF has been upgraded to have IFF..



Wrong, the Migs are the first that will get them through the upgrade, same will happen with MKIs and M2Ks during their upgrades and most probably with LCA when it comes. Rafale has it already, but all this is not avalable from day one of the upgrade of course, it takes years just to upgrade the Migs and M2ks, even longer to upgrade 100 MKIs, not to forget that there are 100s of Mig 21, 27s or Jags are in the fleet, which haven't this capability.
Also your example of Jags beeing escorted by Mig 29s is even the best example why visual ID is important! A Mig that escorts a strike package and that will be attacked by enemy interceptors can't simply shoot at any dot that appears on it's radar. It has to distinguis between the Jags and F16s for example, how do you do it in the middle of a fight?
That's exactly what happened in Red Flag, where MKIs that acted as escorts, often killed fighters of their own team during air combats, because they couldn't distinguish the targets on the radar and with limited AWACS support.
IAF has the aim of building up a complete netcentric warfar capable fleet, but that will take a lot of time and efford. Visual ID will remain important for a long time and only we take paper specs of radars or missiles about maximum detection or missile ranges, doesn't mean that a realistic air combat would be done with these specs. Just search a bit for the ranges where the US fighters used their Amraams during the Iraq wars for example and that allthough they had AWACS, long range fighter radars and missiles, as well as jamming capabilities. There are many factors that changes things in air combats and that has to be taken to account!

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## anathema

sancho said:


> in future AESA side arrays in Pak Fa / FGFA or Rafale will be a big improvement in the detection capability.



Side arrays in Rafale ?? Is that planned in future - never heard about it till now. I thought that is very specific to T50...


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## Jon Snow

@Sancho - Will the Indian Rafale come with the M-88 ECO with uprated thrust of 90kn??


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## anathema

Folks - I have been thinking about MMRCA competition for the past couple of days and pondering on why it went the way it did. This is all retrospectively ofcourse ! It is my belief now that *IAF always wanted Rafale* and no other aircraft - and you could actually see this coming..

1St Point ) Competitors that were included. Top of the line fighters - however clearly some of them belonged to a different class altoghether - Such as teens and gripen. It is obvious that these fighters were included to make sure that *transperancy and fair fight* amongst all - was the nature of this competition. However the most important - IAF being able to learn *strengths and weakness* of all these potential future adversaries ! 

2nd Point ) Elimination - you can clearly make out by elimination process which aircraft IAF was preferring. Why ? They eliminated - F18 and Gripen - Both good fighters with excellent capabilities and wide range of weapon capabilities and with much cheaper costs. IAF definitely felt that if these two aircrafts every come into play in L1 process - then by their virtue of being *cheap will be the resultant winner* !! No doubts on it. Fortunately F18 did not perform well in high altitude Ladakh - which made it easy for IAF. Whereas for Gripen IAF made a claim about AESA radar being non-operational - which smugs of double-handedness since baring American's none of the fighters had an *operational AESA radar* (Rafale being close to operational). Wont comment on teens since its self evident. Mig's ruling out was made easy - due to Canopy incident (which i learned today) during the trials.

3rd Point) THis left EF and Rafale - with EF being operationally way behind Rafale. IAF i belive was satisfied and did their homework well. Since they believed if these two aircrafts were competiting against each other - then Rafale has always been the cheaper one and by that virtue the L1 candidate. So folks - If Rafale had to win - *then L1 competitor had to be EF* - this was a must and i believe everything was done to ensure this was the case !

IAF has played out its cards extremely well in this process. It has kept MoD happy , it has given French a very satisfied feeling of they having won the deal in a hard fought competition and finally - IAF gets the aircraft they always wanted. Touche!! Well Played !! - I am elated - and i believe this is how it should be done. 


I dont have any proofs - just have been doing some thinking - and ofcourse speaking all of this retrospectively !!! 

I Love Rafale and this is the best way it could have gotten in - so a very awesomely choreographed process.


Last word - *This deal is for the French to loose* - honestly i pray that they dont do something foolish and be stubborn ...MoD has a tendency to start all over again given the fact elections are also coming.

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## 500

kingdurgaking said:


> I guess the best AIM 120D and meteor will have a no escape zone within 60 KM for sure.. secondly the RCS you are talking is not a fixed one and it varies when you carry a weapon under the wings and belly... because the fins on missiles , the missile surface the pylons and the drop tanks will definitely increases RCS tremendously ...
> 
> and your claim is on clean configuration which does not apply when they carry a missile


I was talking about not clean configuration.

Here Russian estimates of plane survivability related to RCS:

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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> First of all, I don't debate on RCS figures, because these are classified and all the forum talk about it are mainly estimations and not credible. You say a simple AAM will add the RCS so much, while way bigger cruise missiles are generally estimated with a RCS of 1m2 (see Beriev A50 or Saabs Erieye specs for example). Also it depends on many other factors too, FOV, jamming as 500 explained...
> Secondly, lets say an MKI detects an enemy, but the from the side, so it's not in the FOV of the enemies radar. The MKI pilot will not shoot at maximum missile range or so, but will keep out of the enemies detection and close it to the no escape zone, identify the target visually or by AWACS for example and then will fire it's missiles.
> You are highly mistaken if you think that all air combats will be head on engagements, or that only if a radar has a maximum range of several 100s of Km, that any enemy will be detected in that range too. Only with AWACS support, the fighters will get a full view of the surrounding air space, but limited to their own radars, they will have just a limited situational awareness. That's why AWACS, latest ESM capabilities like Rafale and EF offers, or in future AESA side arrays in Pak Fa / FGFA or Rafale will be a big improvement in the detection capability. The swashplate AESA of EF and Gripen is another example, it increases the field of view and give a fighter that is limited to it's radar alone, way more chances to detect and track targets, while the swashplate design itself is contradictory to the advantages of AESA, because you actually don't have to move the radar anymore, since the beam can be directed to different positions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's where IRST or optical systems helps. EF and Rafale for example can identify targets up to 40Km with IRST, while FSOs TV channel, especially the new one will increase this range even more. So identification within the no escape zone will be possible.
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong, the Migs are the first that will get them through the upgrade, same will happen with MKIs and M2Ks during their upgrades and most probably with LCA when it comes. Rafale has it already, but all this is not avalable from day one of the upgrade of course, it takes years just to upgrade the Migs and M2ks, even longer to upgrade 100 MKIs, not to forget that there are 100s of Mig 21, 27s or Jags are in the fleet, which haven't this capability.
> Also your example of Jags beeing escorted by Mig 29s is even the best example why visual ID is important! A Mig that escorts a strike package and that will be attacked by enemy interceptors can't simply shoot at any dot that appears on it's radar. It has to distinguis between the Jags and F16s for example, how do you do it in the middle of a fight?
> That's exactly what happened in Red Flag, where MKIs that acted as escorts, often killed fighters of their own team during air combats, because they couldn't distinguish the targets on the radar and with limited AWACS support.
> IAF has the aim of building up a complete netcentric warfar capable fleet, but that will take a lot of time and efford. Visual ID will remain important for a long time and only we take paper specs of radars or missiles about maximum detection or missile ranges, doesn't mean that a realistic air combat would be done with these specs. Just search a bit for the ranges where the US fighters used their Amraams during the Iraq wars for example and that allthough they had AWACS, long range fighter radars and missiles, as well as jamming capabilities. There are many factors that changes things in air combats and that has to be taken to account!



while we are arguing that most of the engagements are not going to be head on ... but the military planners make sure it will be head on... The pilots do know how to cover or how they can reduce the radar weakness.. we are not talking about a 3rd world pilot here.. Pilots are trained accordingly and it is a very rare case in current you cant expect a engagement above 60 degree owing to the patrolling during war time. Thats what they are trained as there first lesson . secondly turning a 30 degree to left or right will not be a big factor for the pilots or the wing man . all the current radars hold by our adversaries are good in current execution.

Secondly LCA already holds IFF.. while mirage and m29 does get it during the upgrade.. while i believe MKI do have IFF transporders but i dont want to confirm or comment on that .. 

In your case when they do escort they will not far apart but in visual range only... this makes a logical and the planners to the same way... and inter escorts are identified by IFF.. 
MKI in red flag was blind they didnt have there transponders in sync with NATO and often they were misled by the people in AWACS... which made them to take a decision that shoot what ever they could see there.. they did lot of friendly fire yes.... but not the MKI itself ... 

The main reason for network centric warfare is to remove all the manual works and make it command from a single place and automate things.. already things are in progress...

secondly Mig-27 , 21 to get IFF doesnt make sense because they are in last phase of there life.. so if there is a near war they will do visual identification but soon they will not.. and 4th generation fighters are there to stay for next 2-3 decades .. 

In this decade we are going to see definitely see a tremendous change in the warfare trends due to AWACS being inducted in almost all the countries... and RCS will never be a factor for 4th generation fighters..

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## Shaurya




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## Yeti

Rafale looks better in this demo


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## Ambitious.Asian

05 Feb,2012

PARIS:Many global arms industry observers were surprised this week when the Indian Air Force announced that it had chosen French firm Dassault Aviation as its preferred bidder for a roughly $11-billion deal to supply India with 126 jet fighters. After all, despite 12 years of heavy sales bombardments all over the world that sometimes even included the president, only the French air force has ever actually bought the Rafale. 

The deal isn't done yet - the French have just won the right to an exclusive negotiation - but it is close enough that shares in Dassault shot up by 20% the day of the announcement. 

So how did Dassault finally pull it off? And not just any deal, but what some say is the biggest cross-border military aviation contract of all time? Of course, the Indian government said it went to the low bidder, but that seems unlikely - particularly since the final price hasn't been set, and no one picks up jet planes just because they're on sale. 

* The Deal * 
French firm Dassault won $11 billion contract to supply 126 Rafale jets. 
Snapped it up with lower bid against Eurofighter Typhoon aircraft. 
The size of the contract could eventually go up to 200 aircraft. 

* The Aircraft * 
Rafale is a twin-engined, delta-wing jet Can fly up to 2,130 km per hour in high altitude. b
In service for the French Air Force since 2006. 
Has been playing air support roles in Afghan war Part of Nato campaign in Libya in 2011. 

* The Company * 
Dassault family is the majority owner. EADS, a co-producer of competing Typhoon, owns 46% of the equity. 
The company has delivered 7,500 civil & military aircraft to 75 countries. 
Dassault came close to selling aircraft to Brazil and Switzerland, but failed to secure a contract as yet. 
UAE was reportedly in final negotiations to buy 60 Rafale in June 2010, but drama unfolded when Eurofighter Typhoon was allowed to submit a counter-offer. 
French defence minister gave an ultimatum that Rafale production would be halted if the jets could be sold abroad. 

* And The Snag * 
The file containing the offset proposals of contenders went missing in December 2010. Later found on the roadside in south Delhi.h The episode threatened to derail the tendering process itself. 

* Others in the race * 
Six contenders were subjected to extensive field evaluation trials. 
Four aircraft eliminated last year on technical grounds were American Lockheed Martin's F-16 and Boeing's F/A-18, Russian United Aircraft Corporation's MiG-35 and Swedish SAAB's Gripen 

With billions on the table, and the national security at stake, the French plane must have edged out the multi-national Eurofighter for a number of reasons. Nine possibilities: 

* (1)A BETTER LUNCH * 
Of course, nobody makes an important decision for the food, but the prospect of hanging out in Bordeaux, home of the Dassault assembly line, instead of Halbergmoos, Germany, couldn't have hurt. On the one hand, you're in the heart of the French wine country, in a rich and sunny part of France. On the other, you're in cold, grey Bavaria, facing a few years of sausages, sauerkraut, and beer served in mugs the size of small aquariums.

* (2)DASSAULT WAS HUNGRY * 
Dassault has failed to sell the Rafale abroad since 2000. Although its Mirage planes were popular in the 1970s, Dassault hasn't had a similar success with the Rafale line. Deals with the United Arab Emirates, Morocco and Brazil all fell through. 

To top it off, President Nicolas Sarkozy is very unpopular and faces an uphill election campaign. After all the economic troubles under his tenure, bringing home a little jambon would be seen as a positive - particularly as France has reportedly sunk more than $50 billion on the Rafale's development, a lot of money for a country that spends around $60 billion a year on defence. 

Despite the fact that chairman and chief executive officer Serge Dassault is a member of Sarkozy's political party, owns the leading French conservative newspaper (Le Figaro) and even serves as a French senator (where he is vice-finance chairman), the government had recently announced plans to cease production in 2021 if outside buyers could not be found. 

* (3)BECAUSE I'M WORTH IT * 
L'Oreal, the French cosmetics company, made a fortune selling its more-expensive home hair dye with ads that showed some sultry blonde saying she'd chosen L'Oreal, "because I'm worth it". Now that India has become a much wealthier country, it can afford the best for its pilots - and Rafale is arguably the best. 

"They kind of went for the 'fun to fly' factor rather than the best value factor," says S Amer Latif, a visiting fellow in US-India policy studies at the Center for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS) in Washington, DC. 

"If you ask me which plane is better, I'd answer Rafale is a more mature and already multi-role plane," says David Cenicotti, an Italian military aviation blogger. "The Eurofighter is a younger technology, believed to be cheaper and to have a more political clout because it is built by four European countries." 

However, this can also be a flaw in times when financial crisis has seen the same four countries much distant from one another on the strategy to save eurozone. 

* (4)DASSAULT IS SMART*
Although the Eurofighter Typhoon and the Rafale began as more or less the same aircraft, Dassault pulled out of the design consortium in 1985, and in recent years the Rafale has made some technical gains. First, the Rafale has a more advanced radar system than the Eurofighter Typhoon. Unlike the Typhoon, it's also already possible to configure to landing on an aircraft carrier - an adjustment that can be difficult, according to James Hardy, Asia-Pacific editor of Jane's Defence Weekly. 

The company has also had a tradition of being on the cutting edge. A 1973 profile of Dassault described the company as viewing sales differently than American aircraft companies: "Whereas most American aircraft companies commonly look on development as an unavoidable and not particularly attractive prelude to production, Dassault seems to view production as a buffer work assignment to fill capacity not absorbed by development." 

* (5)DASSAULT IS NOT AMERICAN * 
American arms deals tend to come with strings attached - inspections, and possibly spare parts embargos if they don't approve of the uses to which a plane is put - as happened after India's nuclear tests in the 1990s. Buy American and you get the American agenda free. 

"The US sells weapons under quite strict conditions - how to use them and where to use them," says Siemon Wezeman, senior researcher at the Stockholm International Research Institute. The US also requires buyers to submit to regular inspections, he says, which some countries find humiliating. 

The French, on the other hand, tend to be more laissez-faire and more independent of the major powers - in their own way, not unlike the Indians. "The whole idea that the French are sometimes very independent vis-a-vis some of the big countries, may give them an added advantage," Wezeman adds. 

* (6)OR BRITISH AND GERMAN AND SPANISH AND ITALIAN * 
An important part of the deal is the transfer of the technology to India. The Eurofighter is a joint product, which runs off four different production lines. This could have led to a lot of complexity down the line, particularly as the agreement calls for setting up a production line and transferring the technology to India. "It seems to me that the Eurofighter's technical transfer might have been a bit more complicated than the French," says Latif of CSIS. 

* (7)FRANCE MAKES ALL THE PARTS * 
Even as most arms makers, including American manufacturers, have tried to cut costs and boost political consensus by creating global supply chains, France still tries to maintain an independent military industrial base. That makes things more expensive for the French taxpayer, but the Indian Air Force may see this as an advantage: rather than worry about maintaining relations with a group of countries, almost all the parts for the Rafale are sourced within France, simplifying the logistics, according to Wezeman. 

* (8)THE ARAB SPRING SPRANG THE RAFALE INTO THE NEWS * 
To most of us, war is a horrible tragedy. To arms dealers, it's a great sales tool. Muammar Ghaddafi was a big fan of the Rafale, and even expressed interest in purchasing a number of them in 2007. Although he later changed his mind - a decision he may have regretted last spring - the one time fan inadvertently helped sell them: French Rafale fighters provided key support for Libyan rebels and reportedly performed very well.


* (9)BEAUTY IS IN THE WALLET OF THE BEHOLDER * 
In the late 1980s, Dassault was involved with a helicopter procurement scandal in Belgium that ended in the conviction of the minister of defence, the chairman of the Socialist Party and a number of other Belgian politicians and government officials, and 18 months' probation for CEO Serge Dassault. 

However, it should be noted that at the time, Dassault was not actually breaking French law - bribing French officials was illegal but bribing foreign officials was fair game: until 2000, foreign bribery expenses were even tax deductible. 

More recently, Dassault seems to have continued to have problems with his cash targeting system. In 2008, he won reelection of mayor (it's possible to hold several offices simultaneously in France) in Evry, a town south of Paris, but in 2009, the State Council invalidated results on allegations that he paid some voters for their support. 

So far, no official allegations have been made about the Rafale contract, outside an outlandish claim last April by Subramanian Swamy, Janata Party leader, that a kind of criminal Italian sorority had engineered the deal, comprised Carla Bruni, the half-Italian first lady of France, and Sonia Gandhi, the head of the National Advisory Council, and Mrs Gandhi's sisters. 

Whether a few fat envelopes closed the deal or not, one analyst says suspicion of corruption could still unravel the contract. "I think the biggest risk is when somebody starts shouting corruption even if there isn't anything, because it has to be investigated," Wezeman says. 





9 factors that may have helped Dassault sell its Rafale fighter this week - The Economic Times

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## Indian nationalist

So we shouldn't buy these rafales ?

It's not late, we can refuse 

And these 11billion $ could reduce the poverty in india
These rafales Will not be used against any country, so why buy it?

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## Tshering22

Indian nationalist said:


> So we shouldn't buy these rafales ?
> 
> It's not late, we can refuse
> 
> And these 11billion $ could reduce the poverty in india
> These rafales Will not be used against any country, so why buy it?



Dude, you clearly are not the defense type are you? Welcome to PDF BTW. The more you stay the better you will learn as to WHY we need those Rafales.

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## Indian nationalist

Tshering22 said:


> Dude, you clearly are not the defense type are you? Welcome to PDF BTW. The more you stay the better you will learn as to WHY we need those Rafales.



No i'm not the defense type lol

But after reading this thread, we can see that dassault is the winner ?

Thank you for your welcome, yes i'm here to learn about military

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## Pakistanisage

Indian nationalist said:


> So we shouldn't buy these rafales ?
> 
> It's not late, we can refuse
> 
> And these 11billion $ could reduce the poverty in india
> These rafales Will not be used against any country, so why buy it?




Well said Indian Nationalist. Let's be honest - French Dassualt is known for its penchant to make deals by bribing under the Table. How do you think Zardari go so rich ? when Benazir was in Power, All the deals with France had to pay Mr. 10% his share.
I am sure some Indian politicians got very very rich off of this 11 Billion Dollar deal.

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## EastWest

Indian nationalist said:


> So we shouldn't buy these rafales ?
> 
> It's not late, we can refuse
> 
> And these 11billion $ could reduce the poverty in india
> *These rafales Will not be used against any country, so why buy it?*



or probably u were born after 1999...because if u were not, u would not have made such idiotic statements...

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## Indian nationalist

EastWest said:


> or probably u were born after 1999...because if u were not, u would not have made such idiotic statements...



Why do you react so offensively ?

Do you know what is NUCLEAR DETERENCE ?

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## EastWest

Indian nationalist said:


> Why do you react so offensively ?
> 
> Do you know what is NUCLEAR DETERENCE ?



did nuclear deterence stop Pakistan from attacking heights of Kargil?? Since u claim to be an Indian, u should be knowing that we had a war fought for around 50 days, in which fighter planes had to be used to pummel the bunkers on the hills in and around Kargil..

So when u say, we are never going to war, see if our neighbors think the same way..if not then u know why we need Rafale

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## IndoUS

The reason EFT was thrown out was because it is made by a consortium of different countries. So even if India get the jet it will be a pain in the a** to get all the countries on the same page to make any changes to the aircraft or to get more from the deal. The other thing is that the French are more reliable partners than the British and the Germans, the British are more likely to go against us if the US put anything in our way. The French so far have supplied quality product and have supported us even when most of the west was against us.


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## Yeti

Pakistanisage said:


> Well said Indian Nationalist. Let's be honest - French Dassualt is known for its penchant to make deals by bribing under the Table. How do you think Zardari go so rich ? when Benazir was in Power, All the deals with France had to pay Mr. 10% his share.
> I am sure some Indian politicians got very very rich off of this 11 Billion Dollar deal.




Your taking rubbish the MRCA tender has been said to be corruption free and the most transparent by all parties involved.

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## Yeti

The French Connection | Deccan Chronicle


The Indian Air Force has spelt out its choice in the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) deal to acquire 126 fighters, and the decision now lies with the Indian government, and the French, to finalise the contract. The Rafale, IAF&#8217;s choice, has come full circle in the process. Dassault, its maker, had first offered the older Mirage 2000 fighters, withdrew it, bid the Rafale, was almost disqualified in 2009 when high-level diplomacy saved it, went on to top the field trials along with its European cousin, the Eurofighter Typhoon, and is now all set to win what&#8217;s arguably the biggest, and most keenly contested, defence deal on offer. 

Yet, in some ways, it&#8217;s not the end of the acquisition process, but the beginning of an intense last stage. Now, it&#8217;s Dassault&#8217;s to do the bending. So, what&#8217;s the MMRCA? Why is India ready to pay nearly $20 billion to buy these aircraft? 

Twenty five years ago, the Indian Air Force had some 40 squadrons, and was the pre-eminent air force in our part of the world, with a combat edge in numbers, technology and training over not only Pakistan, but even over China. Since then, however, the IAF&#8217;s combat strength has continuously dwindled, to about 28 squadrons today, due to the phasing out of fighters of the 1960s and 1970s vintage &#8212; the MiG 21s and MiG 23s. The IAF wants to buy seven squadrons of multi-role fighters to arrest the decline in combat strength numbers. 

When the IAF began to look for a suitable fighter, the technology and costs of military aircraft had changed, and the world was moving towards multi-role platforms &#8211; aircraft that could be used in not only air-to-air combat, but air-to-ground attack, deep strike, nuclear missions, anti-ship strikes, etc. What&#8217;s more, the Soviet Union had imploded, and Russia had become an uncertain supplier, prompting India to look to reduce dependence on it. And India was already acquiring the Su-30 MKI air superiority fighters at the high end, and confidence in the development of the indigenous Tejas light combat aircraft at the low end had risen. Inevitably, the Air Force began to look for a medium-weight, high performance, multi-role jet, and invited global vendors to bid. 

With a deal of this size, along with the quantitative imperative to maintain squadron strength, the IAF had to also achieve a transformation of Indian air power in proportion to the shift in economic, strategic and geopolitical power shift from North Atlantic and Europe to Asia. It&#8217;s not only China that is rising, India is on the ascent, too, and it&#8217;s a trend that will continue for some decades. 

Textbook procedure
The acquisition process has seen an agonising and exacting evaluation of over 650 technical and operational parameters against which the IAF benchmarked not one or two but six aircraft. It&#8217;s a tribute to the IAF, a reflection of its professional standards that it has done so in five years &#8211; from the request for information to the request for proposals, operational evaluation, and then field trials in the vastly different terrains in which its aircraft must operate &#8211; from the hot climes of Nagpur to the jungles of the north-east to the high altitudes of Leh. For the contenders, it was an ordeal by fire virtually, and obviously showed up the limitations of each. 

Even the losers of the bid acknowledge that the evaluation has been thoroughly professional, fair and free of the much-suspected geopolitical/strategic considerations. It&#8217;s to the credit of the government that it allowed the evaluation to be done completely on the basis of operational and technical parameters. 

The Rafale has been declared the lowest cost bidder, or L1. In the old days, that used to mean unit cost of an aircraft. In the more professional cost evaluation of today, it takes into account the life cycle costs of operating the aircraft over 40-50 years. It also includes offsets to the Indian aircraft industry and the transfer of technology in critical areas &#8211; the idea being that this should be the last ever import contract for combat aircraft. 

The Rafale
The fact that the Rafale has been found to be the most suitable aircraft after this tough evaluation is an indication of how advanced it is. The Rafale is a delta-wing, twin-engine, nuclear capable fighter with exceptional stability due to its advanced fly-by-wire technology; its canards give it high agility in dog fights; and the high-performance Snecma M88 engines give it an operationally advantageous power-weight ratio and a range of 3,600-3,700 km. 

With its ability to be armed with beyond visual range missiles, all-aspect air-to-air capability, anti-ship strikes, medium-range missiles, standoff precision-guided munitions and anti-radiation missiles, the Rafale brings a whole range of capabilities to the IAF. 

The MMRCA is key to the IAF&#8217;s force structure. It can perform in sub-continental territorial defence scenarios as well as in operations that India might undertake under UN aegis or in a coalition of the willing in its strategic neighbourhood &#8211; from Central Asia to the northern Indian Ocean, from the Suez to Shanghai, from Aden to South China Sea. This is a large neighbourhood, and the MMRCA will help transform Indian air power from a sub-continental power to that of a continental power. 

That transformational role extends to another dimension as well. Conventional wars of the 1971-type are not possible today. Those involved large numbers of casualties and the deliberate destruction of industrial infrastructure, etc. Such wars are not palatable to political leaderships today. The political leadership hesitates to use ground and naval forces. As a result, the salience of air power has increased. 

The ability to penetrate, persist, attack precisely and carry out warfare at the strategic and tactical levels with minimal bloodletting and collateral damage makes air power attractive as a military option, especially as military and political objectives have to be achieved speedily against international intervention and the media. Speed, range and penetration have been a problem in expanding Indian power projection until now. 

The Western narrative of the &#8220;changing nature of war&#8221; is built on the experience of the US and European air forces in the past 20 years in one-sided air wars in the Gulf, Kosovo, Afghanistan, Libya, etc., where Western air forces operated in previously sanitised air spaces, dominated them, and did not have to provide cover to ground and naval forces. 

That does not work in the India-Pakistan, India-China scenarios, where we will be up against more or less equivalent forces and where any future conflict is unlikely to be limited to only the air dimension. The MMRCA will have a major role in sanitising airspace over our ground and naval forces over a vast geographical space and hit a large number of enemy targets on the ground, in the air and at sea. That&#8217;s why the IAF undertook such an agonising and exacting evaluation of the six aircraft. The Rafale will be crucial in the war scenarios India envisages &#8211; limited war under a nuclear overhang &#8211; because it affords both conventional and nuclear deterrence, and firepower, against adversaries. 

The Technology Imperative
India will buy 18 Rafales in flyaway condition and will make 108 at HAL, Bengaluru, under licence and transfer of technology. The total order, in time, may go up to 189, and the deal value $20 billion or more. The size of the deal alters contract dynamics entirely. Not only Dassault but the entire French combat air industrial capability is at stake. It&#8217;s an opportunity for India to drive the hardest bargain on price and technology. 

Technology from the Rafale, its advanced avionics, powerplant, etc., is vital to fill crucial gaps in Indian technological capability. Skillful negotiations with the French on critical technology transfer should help enhance Indian combat aircraft industry. The MMRCA deal can be a win-win &#8212; a new lease of life for the French industry, and take-off for the Indian industry. 

The final commercial negotiations for the deal are set to begin, but there are already attempts by competitors to question the wisdom of choosing French. It&#8217;s important for the government to close the deal early to put a stop to all speculation, allegations and conspiracy theories.

(Air Vice Marshal (retd) Kapil Kak is additional director of the Centre for Air Power Studies, New Delhi)
(As told to S. Raghotham)

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## Americanpeacebomber

EF-Typhoon have to rely on 4 countries, overall Dassault was better pick.


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## sancho

anathema said:


> Side arrays in Rafale ?? Is that planned in future - never heard about it till now. I thought that is very specific to T50...



Side arrays were considered for the F22 in the past as well and similar systems are possible for the Rafale in future too:



> *Plans For Further Rafale Upgrades Emerge*
> 
> With a new round of Rafale upgrades nearing completion, the French military and defense industry are starting to look at the long-term future of the twin-engine fighter.
> 
> Although much of the focus is on a potential mid-life upgrade (MLU) that is still several years away, development activities to prepare the technology would have to start significantly sooner. *Potential radar cross-section (RCS) improvements are under consideration, as are equipping the fighter with additional radar arrays for greater spherical coverage and adding thrust vector control to the two M88 turbojets*. The MLU configuration is not expected to emerge until around 2025...



Plans For Further Rafale Upgrades Emerge | AVIATION WEEK

I recently summed up the upgrades of the version offered in MMRCA and some that are possible in future:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/4347-mrca-news-discussions-506.html#post2547826



Jon Snow said:


> @Sancho - Will the Indian Rafale come with the M-88 ECO with uprated thrust of 90kn??



The new Rafale F3+ or F3-04T will come with the M-88-2E4 engine, which is an upgraded M88-2 but not for increased thrust, but longer engine life and reduced operational costs. This Rafale version was offered in MMRCA and should be the one we will get, the 90kN M88-3 on the other side will be the base for a possible Kaveri - Snecma engine co-development.




kingdurgaking said:


> but the military planners make sure it will be head on...



Says who? Even in the old dogfighting times with guns any pilot tried to get on the 6 of the enemy. This didn't even changed much, when IR missiles were added for WVR fights, because the older missiles couldn't be used, when your target is behind you and the same base tactic still counts today in BVR combats. Stay out of the FOV of you opponent and he can't attack you!



kingdurgaking said:


> secondly Mig-27 , 21 to get IFF doesnt make sense because they are in last phase of there life.. so if there is a near war they will do visual identification but soon they will not.. and 4th generation fighters are there to stay for next 2-3 decades ..



True, but still these fighters will be used next to MKI or any other 4th gen fighter with IFF. That means in an air combat with several enemy and own fighters, these Migs will appear on MKIs radar just as a target, which can't be distinguished automatically and the only ways to avoid killing one of them is, AWACS support or visual ID before lauchning a weapon and the latter is clearly the safer choice!

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## sancho

anathema said:


> 1St Point ) Competitors that were included. Top of the line fighters - however clearly some of them belonged to a different class altoghether - Such as teens and gripen. It is obvious that these fighters were included to make sure that *transperancy and fair fight* amongst all - was the nature of this competition.



That's not correct mate, because M-MRCA is just and extention from the MRCA competition and that included mainly fighters like Gripen C/D, Mirage 2000-5, F16 B52 and Mig 29SMT.
The production line of the Mirage was about to close and although IAF prefered it, MoD/GoI decided to go for M-MRCA and to include heavier fighters like EF and the F18SH, even though IAF didn't wanted such heavy fighters! This move made the vendors that already were in MRCA competition to re-think and why they then offered improved versions or new fighters. That's why Mig 29SMT was replaced by Mig 35, F16 B52 by B70/IN, Gripen C/D by E/F or why the Mirage was replaced by Rafale.




anathema said:


> 2nd Point ) Elimination - you can clearly make out by elimination process which aircraft IAF was preferring. Why ? They eliminated - F18 and Gripen - Both good fighters with excellent capabilities and wide range of weapon capabilities and with much cheaper costs.



First of all, IAF didn't made the shortlist, but a technical committee of the MoD. IAF only made the trials according to their requirments and forwarded all results to the MoD.
Secondly, Gripen and the F18SH didn't fulfilled key requirements of IAF like a TWR of 1, certain G limits or and the technical issues of Gripens AESA radar, were reported in the Brazilian evaluation as well, so it can't be just a claim and there were reasons why these wasn't shortlisted.
When you turn it around instead and look at the commonalities that EF and Rafale offered that the rejected fighters didn't, you will see that apart from great flight performance, the longest range stand off missiles, they both also offered the most ToT and industrial benefits for our forces. So there are also reason why only these might have been shortlisted!


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## Shaurya

*Deconstructing the MMRCA decision*
Deccan Chronicle (Deba Mohanty - Senior Fellow in Security Studies at the Observer Research Foundation, New Delhi)


The multi-billion-dollar MMRCA deal has been debated for several years. The contract is now in the final stage of negotiations, and probably 6-9 months away from signing. Yet, doubts are being raised even now over the deal.

First, why buy 4+ gen. jet when 5th Gen F-35 is available: Some analysts have argued that the MMRCA deal should be scrapped at this late stage and India should opt for the American F-35 Joint Strike Fighter aircraft, which is the latest technology, and could be cheaper.

Such an argument stems from a misunderstanding of the MMRCA deal. The MMRCA is meant to achieve a balanced force structure. It will fill the gap between the indigenous Tejas LCA at the low end and the Su-30 MKI air superiority fighter at the high end, while affording new technology to Indian industry and multi-role capability and force projection to the IAF. The Air Force rejected the 1970s and 1980s vintage F-16 and F/A-18 jets, and down selected the latest operational aircraft, the Rafale and the Eurofighter Typhoon, before declaring the Rafale as the lowest cost bidder. Also, India made a conscious decision to co-develop a 5th Gen fighter with Russia.

When the MMRCA exercise began, the F-35 was neither on the table, nor anywhere near being operational. As we go to press, the USAF has announced that it is set to upgrade 350 F-16s because the F-35 continues to be delayed. Quite apart from Indian reluctance to buy American and obtain little technology transfer, the JSF is a high-technology project that is still subject to significant risks and whose proposed numbers have been dropped by the US from the original 1,800 to about a third of that number. None of this is to suggest that India should close its options on 5th Gen fighters. In fact, the basket of options has just enlarged, and India can take advantage of that.

Second, why Rafale when cheaper options were available: Three factors determine a major acquisition decision &#8212; whether what&#8217;s offered meets qualitative requirements, whether it is affordable and, now, what techno-industrial benefits it will bring. *The Rafale buy may be difficult to justify purely on qualitative requirements, but factor in offsets and technology transfers, and the fact that India is still to drive a hard bargain on the final cost. By all indications, India would drop the deal if the final price escalates beyond about $18 billion. Given the past experience with Dassault, especially the recent Mirage upgrade deal, it will be interesting to see how hard India can negotiate. *This is also a tricky situation for Dassault, because it knows that if it fails to meet the demands, the contract could slip out of its bag.

Third, will France transfer all the technology we want: No less than French President Nicholas Sarkozy has said that France/Dassault would transfer all the technology demanded in the contract, including source codes, a point he publicly reiterated when Dassault was announced as the lowest cost bidder. Still, it is for the Indian government to specify critical technologies that it wants, negotiate hard and ensure compliance. These are in some 10-12 areas, including composites and stealth, single-crystal blade technology, simulation, micro-radars, etc.

Fourth, life cycle costs. Introduction of life cycle costs as part of an acquisition is a new phenomenon. This is a result of India&#8217;s displeasure over difficulties faced in earlier acquisitions when it faced severe constraints in supply of spares and even in maintenance of critical infrastructure. Such sourcing resulted in additional costs, new contractual conditions and delays.

Fifth, beyond commercial and technological considerations. Large arms deals invariably go beyond economic and technological considerations and the MMRCA is no exception. Although this tender has so far followed a text-book procedure, not only strategic considerations but others could come into the picture. Consider these: deals for the C-130J Hercules and the P-8I maritime reconnaissance aircraft have sustained about 35,000 jobs in the US alone; the Hawk AJTs, along with the latest follow-on orders, will sustain some 27,000 jobs in the UK; and it would not be wrong to say that over a million hearths were kept going in Russia through more than a dozen large orders from India.

Dassault, for whom the Indian Rafale order will be the first export order, is looking to come off the ventilator with an MMRCA order in 2012, and a possible follow-on some years hence. That gives India leverage to drive not only a hard bargain but also mutual strategic benefits in foreign, defence and economic relations with France.


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## hitenray09

Indian nationalist said:


> So we shouldn't buy these rafales ?
> 
> It's not late, we can refuse
> 
> *And these 11billion $ could reduce the poverty in india*
> These rafales *Will not be used against any country*, so why buy it?



_the reason we r buying Rafale is we r short on our planes. in a span of 4-5 yrs we will be phasing out all the Mig 21, 23 leaving us with Su30,Mirage, jaguar,mig 27,29 totaling to almost 400Plus aircraft. due to this downfall in nos we will lose our quantitative edge on our neighbors.
Now for yr 2nd part we r not attacking anyone but all the wars that we have fought till date was becoz we were attacked and we had to counter them.
Andif we dont fight there wont be anything left to be called as *INDIA* & u an *INDIAN*_


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## hitenray09

Indian nationalist said:


> Why do you react so offensively ?
> 
> Do you know what is *NUCLEAR DETERENCE* ?



_if my memory favors me then i recall a article on aftermath of the Kargil war where some Pak minister said at a certain stage they wont hesitate to use any means to avoid losing. IMHO this anything was NUCLEAR BOMB (i may be wrong but cant be denied) , the NUCLEAR DETERENCE wont hinder our opponents on using dirty tricks when they have nothing to lose when by any ill chance we face each other Becoz unlike us they dont follow the *"No 1st use policy"*_


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## ptldM3

The Rafale won because it is a very well rounded aircraft that could do everything well. Including meeting the unique requirements of the IAF.

Rafale really is state of the art. The IAF's acquisition of the Rafale (in large numbers) coupled with the MKI (in large numbers) and the pak-fa (in large numbers) will make the IAF an impressive force not only in the region but in the world.

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## ManuZ

Indian nationalist said:


> So we shouldn't buy these rafales ?
> 
> It's not late, we can refuse
> 
> And these 11billion $ could reduce the poverty in india
> These rafales Will not be used against any country, so why buy it?




How come u fight proverty if u cant provide security first?

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## ManuZ

Yaa true....this billions could be used to fight poverty and uplift of poor people in india...
But this process cant be done just by throwing money...
Its a slow process...and India is doing well...every year 20-30million people are lifted from the poor to middle class...
with 1.2 billion population and having democracy its not easy as u think...
U should be responsible for the security of ur citizens...
I dont think spending this much money in defense should be directed to somewhere else..

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## lynx

Indian nationalist said:


> So we shouldn't buy these rafales ?
> 
> It's not late, we can refuse
> 
> *And these 11billion $ could reduce the poverty in india
> These rafales Will not be used against any country, so why buy it?*



In a perfect world your words make sense, but this is a dog eat dog world and as the saying goes Good fences make good neighbours' and we are just building a good fence.

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## Shaurya

^^^^ Again the poverty bullshit, if you are so keen, why not just go to a slum and work for poverty eradication.... jokers....

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## Ambitious.Asian

ptldM3 said:


> The Rafale won because it is a very well rounded aircraft that could do everything well. Including meeting the unique requirements of the IAF.
> 
> Rafale really is state of the art. The IAF's acquisition of the Rafale (in large numbers) coupled with the MKI (in large numbers) and the pak-fa (in large numbers) will make the IAF an impressive force not only in the region but in the world.


 
i wonder how rafale lost its previous competitions...........back then,rafale becomes a victim of political partial decisions.
But India sense the real value of Rafale.


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## Ambitious.Asian

Shaurya said:


> ^^^^ Again the poverty bullshit, if you are so keen, why not just go to a slum and work for poverty eradication.... jokers....




well said friend,Powerty is a keen bitter truth of India but it can't be compared with Nation's Security.
although...powerty is not a ignorant factor...it's eridication does't have any relation with defence.


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## Nishan_101

Really I have been thinking about the *Rafael N* as this wasn't possible due to the lack of funds and now Dassault has some cash in near future from this $20 Billion 200+ Planes deal and now they are surely going to put this in Rafael N project and its good for INAF's IAC-2 and IAC-3, which is still under construction. I am sure if IAF has selected it then INAF will also look into this deal too.what do you say?


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## Alphacharlie

ManuZ said:


> How come u fight proverty if u cant provide security first?



Fight Poverty or else Poverty will fight you. Ratianle being you will be over run by Two kind Neighbors.......


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## satishkumarcsc

Nishan_101 said:


> Really I have been thinking about the *Rafael N* as this wasn't possible due to the lack of funds and now Dassault has some cash in near future from this $20 Billion 200+ Planes deal and now they are surely going to put this in Rafael N project and its good for INAF's IAC-2 and IAC-3, which is still under construction. I am sure if IAF has selected it then INAF will also look into this deal too.what do you say?


 
You mean Rafale-M? It is already there. It is taking off from Charles de Gaulle.

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## indianspetsnaz

the EFT is a much better air to air fighter than the Rafale but the absence of a credible air interdiction capability is what sealed its fight all the EFT can do is just drop laser guided bombs whereas Rafale can deploy multiple weapons at ease like the scalp, AASM,Exocet etc not to mention it has a better radar if the EFT had a better air to ground capability then it would have won the competition hands down not to mention the Rafale's air to air capabilities will increase when the meteor is equipped on it

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## Nishan_101

Sorry 
Really I have been thinking about the Rafael N the dual seat version of Rafeal M as this wasn't possible due to the lack of funds and now Dassault has some cash in near future from this $20 Billion 200+ Planes deal and now they are surely going to put this in Rafael N project and its good for INAF's IAC-2 and IAC-3, which is still under construction. I am sure if IAF has selected it then INAF will also look into this deal too.what do you say?


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## Stealth

Another and important factor is to block Pakistan Airforce and Navy Purchases. Now Pakistan is not capable to buy EF at-least right now because of the price and also already ignoring American made weapons like F16 and Gripen (Collaboration components US/SW). Now Pakistan have only 1 option left and that is China and about Russian weapons Pakistan Military is not much familiar with Russian made weapons except Helicopters.


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## indianspetsnaz

Stealth said:


> Another and important factor is to block Pakistan Airforce and Navy Purchases. Now Pakistan is not capable to buy EF at-least right now because of the price and also already ignoring American made weapons like F16 and Gripen (Collaboration components US/SW). Now Pakistan have only 1 option left and that is China and about Russian weapons Pakistan Military is not much familiar with Russian made weapons except Helicopters.



France would have not sold the Rafale to Pakistan anyway because they would have screwed their relations with India, not to mention i think that the cost of the Rafale is to expensive for the PAF to afford.


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## illuminatidinesh

> The Rafale won because it is a very well rounded aircraft that could do everything well. Including meeting the unique requirements of the IAF.
> 
> Rafale really is state of the art. The IAF's acquisition of the Rafale (in large numbers) coupled with the MKI (in large numbers) and the pak-fa (in large numbers) will make the IAF an impressive force not only in the region but in the world.


I appreciate that from u.... Between long time no see? Welcome back anyway


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## below_freezing

ptldM3 said:


> The Rafale won because it is a very well rounded aircraft that could do everything well. Including meeting the unique requirements of the IAF.
> 
> Rafale really is state of the art. The IAF's acquisition of the Rafale (in large numbers) coupled with the MKI (in large numbers) and the pak-fa (in large numbers) will make the IAF an impressive force not only in the region but in the world.



a naval embargo and the country turning into a war zone would instantly take out the PAK-FA and Rafale out of action, as the only plane that could be maintained on India supplied parts would then be the MKI.


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## Hello_10

sancho said:


> *Side arrays were considered for the F22 in the past as well and similar systems are possible for the Rafale in future too:*
> 
> 
> Plans For Further Rafale Upgrades Emerge | AVIATION WEEK
> 
> I recently summed up the upgrades of the version offered in MMRCA and some that are possible in future:
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/4347-mrca-news-discussions-506.html#post2547826
> 
> 
> The new *Rafale F3+ or F3-04T will come with the **M-88-2E4 engine*, which is an upgraded M88-2 but not for increased thrust, but longer engine life and reduced operational costs. This Rafale version was offered in MMRCA and should be the one we will get, the *90kN M88-3* on the other side will be the base for a possible Kaveri - Snecma engine co-development.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Says who? Even in the old dogfighting times with guns any pilot tried to get on the 6 of the enemy. This didn't even changed much, when IR missiles were added for WVR fights, because the older missiles couldn't be used, when your target is behind you and the same base tactic still counts today in BVR combats. Stay out of the FOV of you opponent and he can't attack you!
> 
> 
> 
> True, but still these fighters will be used next to MKI or any other 4th gen fighter with IFF. That means in an air combat with several enemy and own fighters, these Migs will appear on MKIs radar just as a target, which can't be distinguished automatically and the only ways to avoid killing one of them is, AWACS support or visual ID before lauchning a weapon and the latter is clearly the safer choice!


 
with new engine, I heard IAF is negotiatng for something above F4 with F5 version in keeping mind 



> Most of the Rafales currently in service are built to the F2 standard, which adds the ability to carry and use precision ground attack weapons.
> 
> Since 2008, all Rafales have been delivered in the *F3 standard, which adds the ability to carry French ASMP-A air-launched nuclear missiles, allowing the Rafale to replace the Mirage 2000N in that role. Other modifications include full integration with the Reco NG reconnaissance pod, implementation of all currently planned modes for the RBE2 radar, antiship attack with the Exocet or ANF, the Gerfaut helmet-mounted sight, and support for an improved tanker pack.*
> 
> The batch ordered in 2009 will also have improved protection suites and Thales&#8217; RBE2-AA AESA radar, replacing the mechanically-scanned RBE2 array on previous aircraft. Full integration with Thales&#8217; Damocles surveillance and targeting pod was expected to be complete by 2010, and Damocles-equipped Rafales were used over Libya in 2011. *Efforts to include MBDA&#8217;s Meteor long-range air-air missiles are ongoing.* Some sources refer to Rafales fielded with all of these modifications as *Rafale 'F4s'*, but the type has not been formally defined yet.
> 
> *Aviation Week&#8217;s Air and Cosmos reports that France is developing active stealth for the Rafale 'F5' (2 versions hence).*Bill Sweetman explains:
> &#8220;Active cancellation means preventing a radar from detecting a target by firing back a deception signal with the same frequency as the reflection, but precisely one-half wavelength out of phase with it. Result: the returned energy reaching the radar has no frequency and can&#8217;t be detected. It&#8217;s quite as difficult as it sounds&#8230;. This may not be the first French attempt to implement AC on the Rafale. At the Paris air show in 1997, I interviewed a senior engineer at what was then Dassault Electronique&#8230;.
> 
> France&#8217;s Rafale Fighters: Au Courant In Time?





> *Rafale F3-04T*. This will introduce the RBE-2 AESA-MMR, the laser-/GPS-/imaging infra-red-guided AASM PGM from SAGEM, improved OSF infra-red search-and-track system from THALES, and MBDA's DDM-NG passive missile approach warning system. Down the line, MBDA&#8217;s Meteor beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile should enter service around 2018. In addition, funded research and development studies are already looking towards possible enhancements--to be made several years beyond this point--in areas such as *a reduction to the Rafale&#8217;s radar cross-section*, expanded flight envelope, human/machine interface enhancements and new communications equipment and weapons. A mid-life update is also planned from around 2025.
> 
> TRISHUL: Dassault Aviation&#8217;s Rafale Wins India's M-MRCA Competition





> From 2013, the RAFALE *"omnirole"* fighters will be delivered with the new Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar. The new AESA radar technology offers many operational advantages: increased detection and tracking ranges, enlarged surveillance coverage in azimuth, and significantly ameliorated reliability thanks to the introduction of the new redundant transmit/receive modules. This new RBE2 variant will be fully compatible in terms of detection range with the future extreme long range METEOR air-to-air missile.
> 
> Rafale

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## rockstarIN

below_freezing said:


> *a naval embargo and the country turning into a war zone would instantly take out the PAK-FA and Rafale out of action*, as the only plane that could be maintained on India supplied parts would then be the MKI.



Even for the sake of argument, PAK-FA as well as RAFALE will be like MKI only. We will produce a to z, 100% in Indian plants.


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## dzgame

hey guys does anyone knows the detailed configuration of rafale offered to india??


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## Yeti

below_freezing said:


> a naval embargo and the country turning into a war zone would instantly take out the PAK-FA and Rafale out of action, as the only plane that could be maintained on India supplied parts would then be the MKI.


 


How do u propose a naval embargo ever looked on the map to see where we are located? Chinese merchant ships pass through the 'Indian Ocean' the clue is in the name

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## Yeti

China has nothing like the P-8 sub hunter we can make mincemeat of their noisy Han class subs


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## GURU DUTT

*Thanks Freind ,
Its probabally the best thread ever on MMRCA on this forum Thanks Again , anyway personally i like Typhoon deu to its better radar & service cealing + better engines , but as a top airforce official (wont ever disclose his name&rank) told that airforce is going for Rafale & in the later stages it will have GE 414 engine + some isrealy stuff with a few american wepons ,though i personally found it hillarius but the guy seemed to be pretty confident.....ps dont want to derail this thread but will certainly like comments from senior guys , Thanks .*
*Original Post By GURU DUTT
on 11-03-2011/#24/layman's annalyses of MMRCA/India Defence*


dekha bhai log my source was write , now about GE414& isrealy tech +Amarican wepon's too early to say,..Thanks


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## GURU DUTT

Thanks Freind ,
Its probabally the best thread ever on MMRCA on this forum Thanks Again , anyway personally i like Typhoon deu to its better radar & service cealing + better engines , but as a top airforce official (wont ever disclose his name&rank) told that airforce is going for Rafale & in the later stages it will have GE 414 engine + some isrealy stuff with a few american wepons ,though i personally found it hillarius but the guy seemed to be pretty confident.....ps dont want to derail this thread but will certainly like comments from senior guys , Thanks .
Original Post By GURU DUTT
on 11-03-2011/#24/layman's annalyses of MMRCA/India Defence


dekha bhai log my source was write , now about GE414& isrealy tech +Amarican wepon's too early to say,..Thanks

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## Kyusuibu Honbu

below_freezing said:


> a *naval embargo* and the country turning into a war zone would instantly take out the PAK-FA and Rafale out of action, as the only plane that could be maintained on India supplied parts would then be the MKI.



108 Rafale are going to be manufactured in India plus , none of India's opponents have naval power projection/resources to take Indian navy and then impose an embargo.

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## lynx

below_freezing said:


> a naval embargo and the country turning into a war zone would instantly take out the PAK-FA and Rafale out of action, as the only plane that could be maintained on India supplied parts would then be the MKI.



Other than USN, nobody has the power to put naval embargo on India.


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## Yeti

GURU DUTT said:


> Thanks Freind ,
> Its probabally the best thread ever on MMRCA on this forum Thanks Again , anyway personally i like Typhoon deu to its better radar & service cealing + better engines , but as a top airforce official (wont ever disclose his name&rank) told that airforce is going for Rafale & in the later stages it will have GE 414 engine + some isrealy stuff with a few american wepons ,though i personally found it hillarius but the guy seemed to be pretty confident.....ps dont want to derail this thread but will certainly like comments from senior guys , Thanks .
> Original Post By GURU DUTT
> on 11-03-2011/#24/layman's annalyses of MMRCA/India Defence
> 
> 
> dekha bhai log my source was write , now about GE414& isrealy tech +Amarican wepon's too early to say,..Thanks




American weapons and some Israeli tech I can see but GE414 engines later who knows

---------- Post added at 08:17 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:14 AM ----------








MBDA Meteor is what we should order for the Rafale later

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## nomi007

many indian critics are criticizing the deal on ntdv show
they are saying why we choose Rafael when worlds powers are now shifting to 5th gen
i think they are wrong
life spin of Rafael is 40 years which mean more delay in future programs


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## GURU DUTT

Yeti said:


> American weapons and some Israeli tech I can see but GE414 engines later who knows



boss my source told me that Iaf wanted commonality in its main fleet & he also said if GE414 is fitted on Rafale it will increase its service ceiling+ it will be able to carry a havier load without any changes in feul consomption & talks are already on for that as french had used GE enginen in its earler tests of rafale.....?????


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## KRAIT

nomi007 said:


> many indian critics are criticizing the deal on ntdv show
> they are saying why we choose Rafael when worlds powers are now shifting to 5th gen
> i think they are wrong
> life spin of Rafael is 40 years which mean more delay in future programs


may be they don't understand we have to phase out migs and other older acs and there has to be a replacement along with LCA. 2 Fifth gen programs are already going, till then what will we do...fly migs, let more pilot die, weaken our defense.

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## Tshering22

Indian nationalist said:


> Why do you react so offensively ?
> 
> Do you know what is NUCLEAR DETERENCE ?



And do you really think that this treacherous government of India has any stomach to even launch a cruise missile, let alone flex its nuclear deterrence? 

Bro, we have nuclear deterrence for last 14 years and that has done nothing to Chinese or Pakistani belligerence on either side of the border. I don't know about which state you're from, but ask those of our people who are from bordering states on either side. There is always some or the other military tension here. Most of it is hushed up by this cowardly government and hence everybody thinks it is all sweet and peaceful. Nothing of that sort. 

Apart from being from a border state, I also have a significant number of men in my family serving in armed forces. Trust me, as any NE person (there are 4 more apart from me here). You will know it.

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## Gandhi G in da house

nomi007 said:


> many indian critics are criticizing the deal on ntdv show
> they are saying why we choose Rafael when worlds powers are now shifting to 5th gen
> i think they are wrong
> life spin of Rafael is 40 years which mean more delay in future programs



What those stupid idiot critics dont realise is that India has already been working with Russia for the 5th gen Pak-fa .

when it is about international affairs and defence related matters Indian electronic media is one of the worst in the world . Everyone with a brain ignores them .

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## Yeti

GURU DUTT said:


> boss my source told me that Iaf wanted commonality in its main fleet & he also said if GE414 is fitted on Rafale it will increase its service ceiling+ it will be able to carry a havier load without any changes in feul consomption & talks are already on for that as french had used GE enginen in its earler tests of rafale.....?????




Intresting if this comes true as the GE414 is a really good engine in my view.


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## Tshering22

GURU DUTT said:


> boss my source told me that Iaf wanted commonality in its main fleet & he also said if GE414 is fitted on Rafale it will increase its service ceiling+ it will be able to carry a havier load without any changes in feul consomption & talks are already on for that as french had used GE enginen in its earler tests of rafale.....?????


 
Woa! Rafales with GE414s! Why? French engines are very reliable and require very little maintenance. BTW I have a friend living in Dubai who told me about the MRCA plan that IAF has. During 2009 air show, the French exhibit told him that the Rafales that we will buy will have an uprated M88 engine by around 20% more thrust and better service ceiling. 

Rafale can already carry a full payload with no problems at all. The enhancement will make it even more lethal.

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## Yeti

Plans For Further Rafale Upgrades Emerge | AVIATION WEEK


Although much of the focus is on a potential mid-life upgrade (MLU) that is still several years away, development activities to prepare the technology would have to start significantly sooner. Potential radar cross-section (RCS) improvements are under consideration, as are equipping the fighter with additional radar arrays for greater spherical coverage and adding thrust vector control to the two M88 turbojets. The MLU configuration is not expected to emerge until around 2025. 

Long-range planning is possible because many of the core capabilities deemed necessary for the domestic user and potential export customers are now nearing the end of development. With the F3-04T standard, which is due for delivery in 2013, the Dassault Aviation Rafale will receive its active, electronically scanned array RBE2 radar, developed by Thales; an *improved missile-warning system (the DDM-NG); *and upgraded forward-sight optronics. Qualification of those elements is due for completion in mid-2012 with delivery anticipated in 2013, says Stephane Reb, program manager for French defense procurement agency DGA.


We can upgrade the fighter even with Thrust vector later if we wanted to

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## Laughing_soldier

*With the F3-04T standard, which is due for delivery in 2013, the Dassault Aviation Rafale will receive its active, electronically scanned array RBE2 radar, developed by Thales; an improved missile-warning system (the DDM-NG); and upgraded forward-sight optronics. *

hope India getting all these new systems.


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## Yeti

Laughing_soldier said:


> *With the F3-04T standard, which is due for delivery in 2013, the Dassault Aviation Rafale will receive its active, electronically scanned array RBE2 radar, developed by Thales; an improved missile-warning system (the DDM-NG); and upgraded forward-sight optronics. *
> 
> hope India getting all these new systems.


 

Yep we will be getting it also with the F3-04T standard it's a sweet deal

---------- Post added at 08:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:44 AM ----------

Potential radar cross-section (RCS) improvements are under consideration


In future we can even lower the RCS and if we added thrust vector engines that would be like Super Rafale i mean lol


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## GURU DUTT

Yeti said:


> Yep we will be getting it also with the F3-04T standard it's a sweet deal
> 
> ---------- Post added at 08:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:44 AM ----------
> 
> Potential radar cross-section (RCS) improvements are under consideration
> 
> *
> In future we can even lower the RCS and if we added thrust vector engines that would be like Super Rafale i mean lol*



I think that refeuling probe on the nose of the rafale is the biggest sore point , it should be made retractable like those in F-16's & MKI's...what say??????????


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## Yeti

GURU DUTT said:


> I think that refeuling probe on the nose of the rafale is the biggest sore point , it should be made retractable like those in F-16's & MKI's...what say??????????


 

Ya it's a real eye sore that I would change it for sure its damn ugly!!

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## Yeti

Our colleagues at Air & Cosmos report that the French government is funding a demonstration of improved stealth technology for the Dassault Rafale fighter, with a focus on *active cancellation techniques*. The story itself is not online but is being discussed at the Key Military Forum. 


Active cancellation means preventing a radar from detecting a target by firing back a deception signal with the same frequency as the reflection, but precisely one-half wavelength out of phase with it. Result: the returned energy reaching the radar has no frequency and can't be detected.


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## nomi007



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## Icewolf

ManuZ said:


> How come u fight proverty if u cant provide security first?


 
what has that got to do with security? you're putting a band-aid on someone so you look to see if there aren't any predators around ?


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## MKI 30

Jeezz..Stop Confusing Between Poverty And Defence!! Hate It When Certain Members Comment -- That Money Should Be Spent On Poor. Take A Look At Current IAF Strength--The Only Fighter Which Stands Out Is The MKI...The IAF Was In Desperate Need For A Platform Like Rafale. 
In An Growing Economy, Money Is Regulated To Meet Different Needs-- Needs Such As Education,Defence,Poverty,Rual Development. 
If Money Is Spent On Defence.. It Doesn't Mean We Are Ignoring Education, Poverty Etc. 

Rural Housing Scheme, PDS System Etc Have Been Implemented By The Govt Involving Crores Of Money. Now How Would It Look If I Say... Instead Of Spending On Poverty ..Money Should Be Used For Education?? Same Logic Applies To Defence..It Is As Important As Poverty Etc.

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## KRAIT

Indian nationalist said:


> So we shouldn't buy these rafales ?
> 
> It's not late, we can refuse
> 
> And these 11billion $ could reduce the poverty in india
> These rafales Will not be used against any country, so why buy it?


Kindly start this thread or discuss it on Economic section if you want to talk about poverty.

---------- Post added at 02:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:33 PM ----------




MKI 30 said:


> Jeezz..Stop Confusing Between Poverty And Defence!! Hate It When Certain Members Comment -- That Money Should Be Spent On Poor. Take A Look At Current IAF Strength--The Only Fighter Which Stands Out Is The MKI...The IAF Was In Desperate Need For A Platform Like Rafale.
> In An Growing Economy, Money Is Regulated To Meet Different Needs-- Needs Such As Education,Defence,Poverty,Rual Development.
> If Money Is Spent On Defence.. It Doesn't Mean We Are Ignoring Education, Poverty Etc.
> 
> Rural Housing Scheme, PDS System Etc Have Been Implemented By The Govt Involving Crores Of Money. Now How Would It Look If I Say... Instead Of Spending On Poverty ..Money Should Be Used For Education?? Same Logic Applies To Defence..It Is As Important As Poverty Etc.


Leave it yaar, more we answer more it will fuel the discussion and will derail the thread.

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## praveen007

*9 factors that may have helped Dassault sell its Rafale fighter this week | idrw.org
++
9 factors that may have helped Dassault sell its Rafale fighter this week*
.
.
Many global arms industry observers were
surprised this week when the Indian Air
Force announced that it had chosen French
firm Dassault Aviation as its preferred bidder for a
roughly $11-billion deal to supply India with 126
jet fighters. After all, despite 12 years of heavy
sales bombardments all over the world that
sometimes even included the president, only
theFrench air force has ever actually bought the
Rafale.
The deal isn&#8217;t done yet &#8211; the French have just
won the right to an exclusive negotiation &#8211; but it
is close enough that shares in Dassault shot up
by 20% the day of the announcement.
So how did Dassault finally pull it off? And not
just any deal, but what some say is the biggest
cross-border military aviation contract of all time?
Of course, the Indian government said it went to
the low bidder, but that seems unlikely &#8211;
particularly since the final price hasn&#8217;t been set,
and no one picks up jet planes just because
they&#8217;re on sale.
The Deal
French firm Dassault won $11 billion contract to
supply 126 Rafale jets.
Snapped it up with lower bid
against Eurofighter Typhoon aircraft.
The size of the contract could eventually go up to
200 aircraft.
The Aircraft
Rafale is a twin-engined, delta-wing jet Can fly up
to 2,130 km per hour in high altitude.
In service for the French Air Force since 2006.
Has been playing air support roles in Afghan war
Part of Nato campaign in Libya in 2011.
The Company
Dassault family is the majority owner. EADS, a
co-producer of competing Typhoon, owns 46%
of the equity.
The company has delivered 7,500 civil & military
aircraft to 75 countries.
Dassault came close to selling aircraft to Brazil and
Switzerland, but failed to secure a contract as yet.
UAE was reportedly in final negotiations to buy
60 Rafale in June 2010, but drama unfolded when
Eurofighter Typhoon was allowed to submit a
counter-offer.
French defence minister gave an ultimatum that
Rafale production would be halted if the jets could
be sold abroad.
And The Snag
The file containing the offset proposals of
contenders went missing in December 2010.
Later found on the roadside in south Delhi. The
episode threatened to derail the tendering process
itself.
Others in the race
Six contenders were subjected to extensive field
evaluation trials.
Four aircraft eliminated last year on technical
grounds were American Lockheed Martin&#8217;s F-16
and Boeing&#8217;s F/A-18, Russian United Aircraft
Corporation&#8217;s MiG-35 and Swedish SAAB&#8217;s Gripen
With billions on the table, and the national
security at stake, the French plane must have
edged out the multi-national Eurofighter for a
number of reasons. Nine possibilities:
A BETTER LUNCH
Of course, nobody makes an important decision
for the food, but the prospect of hanging out in
Bordeaux, home of the Dassault assembly line,
instead of Halbergmoos, Germany, couldn&#8217;t have
hurt. On the one hand, you&#8217;re in the heart of the
French wine country, in a rich and sunny part of
France. On the other, you&#8217;re in cold, grey Bavaria,
facing a few years of sausages, sauerkraut, and
beer served in mugs the size of small aquariums.

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## KRAIT

I think i have posted this link before, but most people won't find it in recent pages, so here is detailed info on Rafale and its omnirole capabilities which i think played major role in its selection.

FLIGHT TEST: Dassault Rafale - Rampant Rafale

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## GURU DUTT

KRAIT said:


> I think i have posted this link before, but most people won't find it in recent pages, so here is detailed info on Rafale and its omnirole capabilities which i think played major role in its selection.
> 
> FLIGHT TEST: Dassault Rafale - Rampant Rafale



IAF went for Rafale because 
#1: commanlity with Mirrage

#2: Omnirole...prooved its worth in libiya campain

#3: Spectra prooved its worth in libiya campain

#4: Lower Infrared signature + better stealth

#5: much easy to maintain , as IAF oparates Mirrage 2000

#6: price

#7: french repution of sanction free supply of part's& wepon's

#8: Full TOT withsoucre code's of AESA Radar's

#9: better kick backs

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## praveen007

*Paris to the hilt | idrw.org
++
Paris to the hilt[/size]
.
.*
SOURCE: TELEGRAPH INDIA
The French kiss is running deep for Indias
defence establishment this season.Tuesdays
decision to select the Dassault Aviation-made
Rafale fighter jet over the Eurofighter Typhoon as
the aircraft that will power the Indian Air Force for
the next 40 years is easily the biggest prize that
France has won on any military order.
Some 800 French companies operate in India but
only a select few in the defence sector. Areva in
the nuclear power sector and Airbus (European
conglomerate) in civil aviation have expanded
their businesses, too.
But in the lucrative defence business, France is still
behind Russia and Israel as a supplier to India.
The award of the Rafale contract, possibly in
April, will expand its lead hugely over the US, the
UK and Western European countries. The Indian
military has been steadily diversifying its arsenal
this past decade even though nearly 70 per cent
of the hardware is of Russian/Soviet origin.
It would be sweeter still for France because India
has selected the Rafale after it was rejected by a
clutch of countries that were or are looking to
refurbish their air forces. Among them are
Switzerland, the UAE, Brazil and South Korea.
Also, even all of these countries put together
were not looking to buy as many as 126  and
possibly another 63 more  of the aircraft.
Frances year for Indias defence began with the
announcement in the first week of January that
MBDA was being awarded a contract for 490
Mica infrared and radar-controlled air-to-air
missiles. The package will cost the defence
budget $1.2 billion (about Rs 6,600 crore).
The award of the weapons package follows the
order to upgrade the Indian Air Forces 51 Mirage
2000H fighter jets. France was given the contract
in July last after years of negotiations that almost
frustrated it. The Mica missiles from MBDA will
equip these refurbished fighter jets.
MBDA is also in the race to sell Asraam missiles to
arm the Indian Air Forces 100 Jaguar fighter-
bomber aircraft. MBDA heavy-duty weapons
used in Libya and Afghanistan, like bunker
busting and deep penetration ground attack
missiles, will arm the Rafale, too.
The Mirage modernisation order to French
companies Dassault and Thales will cost about
$2.4 billion (about Rs 11,000 crore). The total
upgrade order, with the weapons package, will
top Rs 17,500 crore.
French companies are preparing to race for an
order for a second line of submarines for the
Indian Navy that could be in the region of Rs
62,000 crore. Frances DCNS got the contract in
2005 to build six Scorpene submarines. The
delivery of the submarines, being built in
Cherbourg in France and also at Mazagon Docks
in Mumbai is delayed because work languished
over pricing issues in 2008.
The first of the submarines is now expected only
in 2015. The contract was signed initially for $3
billion after a meeting between Prime Minister
Manmohan Singh and President Jacques Chirac in
September 2005. The price was revised to $4.5
billion after the contract was re-negotiated amid
allegations from German rival HDW of a scandal.
Cutting across the various defence contracts that
France is executing is French company Thales.
Thales is a partner for the Mirage upgrade, the
submarine development and will partner Dassault
for the Rafale. It supplies night-vision devices to
the Indian Army for its tanks.
French engine-maker Snecma powers the Mirage
2000 fighter aircraft and two Snecma M88
engines will go into each Rafale.
French company Safran has won a contract for
an unspecified amount from Hindustan
Aeronautics to supply Turbomeca Ardiden 1H
helicopters for the Dhruv-II advanced light
helicopter. Each helicopter has two engines and
the Dhruv is steadily becoming one of the main
rotorcraft for the army, the air force and the navy
as also for central police organisations. The
Turbomeca engines are made by Safran.


----------



## The enlightened

GURU DUTT said:


> IAF went for Rafale because
> #1: commanlity with Mirrage
> 
> #2: Omnirole...prooved its worth in libiya campain
> 
> #3: Spectra prooved its worth in libiya campain
> 
> #4: Lower Infrared signature + better stealth
> 
> #5: much easy to maintain , as IAF oparates Mirrage 2000
> 
> #6: price
> 
> #7: french repution of sanction free supply of part's& wepon's
> 
> #8: Full TOT withsoucre code's of AESA Radar's
> 
> #9: better kick backs


So that's why they went for Rafale, huh?
And I did tell you that I saw all the people involved in the trials of MMRCA right from their pilots of their aircrafts to our pilots of their aircraft, playing Cricket instead of doing the flying and evaluating thingy. But I just feel that 'I told you so' just doesn't cut it here.

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## praveen007

*source:- Livefist: Eurojet's India Hopes Fade*
++





++
*Eurojet's India Hopes Fade.
.
.
India's selection of the Rafale constitutes a major blow to EADS,* but little or nothing has been said about its implications for
Eurojet, the four nation cooperative entity that
builds the EJ200 turbofan that powers the
Typhoon. With the Typhoon losing out in the
MMRCA, it now appears likely that Eurojet Turbo
GmbH will never do business with India.
In September 2010, the Indian government
announced that it had chosen the GE F414 to
power the indigenous Tejas Mk.2, a huge
disappointment for Eurojet, which had been
confident of upstaging its American rival. I visited
Eurojet headquarters in Hallbergmoos, Germany
nine months before that, and the company had
been quite confident that it would beat General
Electric.
While India does a fair bit of business with Rolls-
Royce -- which has a maximum 34 per cent
production share in the Eurojet consortium -- it
has little or nothing to do with Avio, MTU Aero
Engines and ITP, the other three partners. As
things stand, the EJ200 turbofan may now never
power an aircraft for India.


----------



## Raje amar

GURU DUTT said:


> IAF went for Rafale because
> #1: commanlity with Mirrage
> 
> #2: Omnirole...prooved its worth in libiya campain
> 
> #3: Spectra prooved its worth in libiya campain
> 
> #4: Lower Infrared signature + better stealth
> 
> #5: much easy to maintain , as IAF oparates Mirrage 2000
> 
> #6: price
> 
> #7: french repution of sanction free supply of part's& wepon's
> 
> #8: Full TOT withsoucre code's of AESA Radar's
> 
> *#9: better kick backs*



US of A may have provided them much more than expected


----------



## DrSomnath999

*1*.India got an *operational ready platform *which has tested & proven capabalities while EF 2000 typhoon was like a post dated cheque for india in which many 
capabilties are going to be installed in remote future & also many system is going to be funded by 
india if it inducts it like 


**Captor E AESA radar in 2015.
*Operational AIr to ground launch capabilty of Air Launched Cruise Misilles around 2016
*Thrust vectoring nozzles*


so who knows in future if there is any time warlike situation may erupt due to increasingly volatile & hostile neighbourhood of india unlike that before ,so it always better to have an operational ready platform.



*2.* India already has/going to have *2 air superiority fighters like Super SU 30mki & FGFA* so it's better to have a fighter with good /proven air to ground capabilties & rafale is the best candidate for it.
Also in Air to Air warfare Rafale thanks to it's 5th gen SPECTRA EW suite, has the unique abilty of 
Passive detection of aerial targets from greater distance than it's own aesa radar when it's target are in active mode (i.e radar turn on) & also it can cue it's air to air missile towards it's target with 
the help of SPECTRA only without turning on it's own AESA radar for stealth reason .





*3*.India could now get all technological help from french for *LCA mark2 / future fighters like AMCA* in key departments

** KAVERI engine development with Scenema
* 5th gen Avionics/ EW suite (spectra) codevelopment with THALES
* Meteor missile development with MBDA & it could be used in development of Ramjet powered 
ASTRA A-A missile
* AESA Radar development*

*4.*India can now have the ability to *arm twist france to veto /stop all 
potential arms sales to PAKISTAN *atleast similar platforms which they are selling to
INDIA.



*5.*EF2000 typhoon is a joint venture between 4 european countries out of which 2 are marred by economic crisis so it could be risky to invest in such joint venture project when u always have a risk of collapsing,
well Rafale is a single country project whom india has good relationship & has already 
operated it's mirage fighters & satisfied with it.





*6.*India now have a much more deeper strategic relationship with france like russians,it can now 
utilize it's relationship to get access in french Islands in the gulf region UAE & in african region like Djibouti to patrol the maritime area & protection of it's SHIPS & tankers from 
pirates  by basing it's naval ships in those islands .Also india now would have the 
support & backing of another imporant powerful ally in future conflicts .





*7*.India could get secretly the technology of ASMP missile for INDIA's own Long
range Cruise missile programs through french as french cannot sell this weapon.
It could be a effective cruise missile like that of Brahmos but not codeveloped like it .





*8.*Rafale's excellent features which gives clear advantage compare to EF 2000 typhoon
*i) Much advanced & sophisticated Avionics likes that RECCO NG reconnaise pod & ECM suites likes that of 5th GEN spectra Sytem 
ii) Much better Air to air missile likes that MICA /meteor MISSILE even could be armed with foreign weapons 
iii) 14 weapons hard points & more weapons payload carring capacity
iv) Tested & proven multi role fighter 
v) More manuverabilty thanks to it's close coupled canards 
vi) Operational ready AESA radar
*

*9.*India is going to get all F3 standard of RAFALE well india can also develop it further with French to *F4 standard*
which can have increased stealth features like 
* Enclosed weapons pods
* more advanced avionics & EW warfare suite
* Less infra red sinature emitting a nine ton thrust version of the M88 engine.





*10.*French are *more transparent & friendlier in transfer of all critical
technology & they dont attach any strings of condition while selling weapons & also they wont put sanctions in future *unlike the EF 2000 partners countries which are more pro US .


*CONCLUSION*
So all in all india really made a wise decision of selecting Rafale as the winner of the 128 MMRCA jet contract & is a truly a complete & tested multirole fighter which fullfills india's all criteria & needs 


*IAF VISION 2020*





*
and for EF 2000 typhoon's fanbouy's well it is just this for us now*

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## praveen007

thats a great analysis doc.
Now about your 6th point.
I have heard of two-three listing posts jointly held by the French and India in Indian-Ocean region.
I will try to find it and post it.

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## crimemaster_gogo

wow there was a thread of same kind but with 9 reasons and now Somanath's nehle pe dehla. good analysis buddy.

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## IND151

i agree with OP

remember some months ago Germany was thinking not to sell EFT to India. 

Except UK we don't have close relations with other 3 nations.

Even UK cant be trusted like France and Russia.

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## Ambitious.Asian

Great Analysis Doc.....keep it up


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## DrSomnath999

praveen007 said:


> thats a great analysis doc.
> Now about your 6th point.
> I have heard of two-three listing posts jointly held by the French and India in Indian-Ocean region.
> I will try to find it and post it.


well talks were happening much before ,and this deal would give us a boost to india's request of using french naval bases in the 
region

---------- Post added at 04:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:53 PM ----------




crimemaster_gogo said:


> wow there was a thread of same kind but with 9 reasons and now Somanath's nehle pe dehla. good analysis buddy.


arre woh crimemaster gogo is back ,

yes buddy similiar threads were there but they are not created by DR somnath 999 (lord of 32 teeth) 

---------- Post added at 04:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:55 PM ----------




IND151 said:


> i agree with OP
> 
> remember some months ago Germany was thinking not to sell EFT to India.
> 
> Except UK we don't have close relations with other 3 nations.
> 
> Even UK cant be trusted like France and Russia.


all are indirectly related to USA & we all know they are not as friendly as FRENCH

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## KRAIT

Can you give more info on Stealth version of Rafale....


----------



## Jason bourne

> 3.India could now get all technological help from french for LCA mark2 / future fighters like AMCA in key departments
> 
> * KAVERI engine development with Scenema
> * 5th gen Avionics/ EW suite (spectra) codevelopment with THALES
> * Meteor missile development with MBDA & it could be used in development of Ramjet powered
> ASTRA A-A missile
> * AESA Radar development



and afcorse AURA


----------



## DrSomnath999

KRAIT said:


> Can you give more info on Stealth version of Rafale....


well it is in concept stages right now , intially french offered to codevelop it with UAE i.e rafale's F4 standard 
Dassault-UAE May Have Rafale Deal This Year | Gannett Government Media | defensenews.com
but if india wants to develop it further the french could coperate

here is an article 
*Rafale F3-O4T and beyond*
Last May 19, The French Defense Procurement Agency (DGA) invited all the international defense press in order to expose the last Rafale milestones reached as well as the futures upgrades planned.












First, the Rafale F3-O4T (former Rafale roadmap) : 60 fighters ordered (25C, 25B, 10M) deliveries from 2013 to 2019 
RBE-2 AESA : Final evaluation in June-July with a qualification expected before the end of 2011
DDM-NG : new missile warning receiver compatible with a future active IR jammer.
OSF-IT : improved front sector optronic suite
Damocles-XF : add a sharper TV channel to the current IR channel for better identification in urban zones. Should be introduced in 2016.
M88-2-E4 engine : extended service life and 2 to 4% less consumption
Export option : 9 tonnes M88 engine. Require a 1.5 cm air intake enlargement and material change to keep low RCS. Proposed to the UAE.

2025 MLU :
RCS improvements
Conformal AESA : increase the radar coverage and seen as a better solution than a single moving antenna
Thrust Vector Control for the M88 engine
Sat Com system
UCAV control system
Unfortunately, no word about a possible HMD...
Rafale News: Rafale F3-O4T and beyond

---------- Post added at 05:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:05 PM ----------




Jason bourne said:


> and afcorse AURA


well why not DASSAULT can help us as they are going to launch Neuron UCAV soon

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## Jason bourne

> well why not DASSAULT can help us as they are going to launch Neuron UCAV soon



thats why i said they can help in AURA too and one other point i think u missed is rafales resemblance with mirag-2000 easy to operate for IAF and infrastructure ...


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## DrSomnath999

Jason bourne said:


> thats why i said they can help in AURA too and one other point i think u missed is rafales resemblance with mirag-2000 easy to operate for IAF and infrastructure ...


well check point no 5 & resemblence doent matter but weapon platform matters & operational experience in a similar platform 
matters

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## Jon Snow

Aren't there far too many similar threads already ?? Ok the rafale is the L1 - it has not won the contract as of yet (even though it is nearly a done deal)- dont count your chickens before they hatch


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## praveen007

crimemaster_gogo said:


> wow there was a thread of same kind but with 9 reasons and now Somanath's nehle pe dehla. good analysis buddy.


.
.
Are you talking about this news artical posted by me.
.
MRCA News & Discussions - Page 389


----------



## DrSomnath999

Jon Snow said:


> Aren't there far too many similar threads already ?? Ok the rafale is the L1 - it has not won the contract as of yet (even though it is nearly a done deal)- dont count your chickens before they hatch


yes but none of them couldnt explain their POvS .& no i dont think rafale cant be denied of this contract as Madam gandhi wont
allow it


----------



## sancho

Hello_10 said:


> with new engine, I heard IAF is negotiatng for something above F4 with F5 version in keeping mind



F5 is a future upgrade where the developments just have started, so all India might want is to participate at certain upgrades. The F5 is meant for 2020 onwards, while MMRCA is meant for 2015, so very different time frames.



GURU DUTT said:


> dekha bhai log my source was write , now about GE414& isrealy tech +Amarican wepon's too early to say,..Thanks



Engines are not going to happen, since the French would not allow it and by the fact that it might be easier to upgrade the M88 to 90kN, than integrating the GE 414.
Israeli techs might only be the Litening pod and possibly SPICE PGMs, the Mirage upgrade will tell us something in this regard.
US weapons, JSOW or SLAM-ER would be the only weapons that could be useful.




nomi007 said:


> many indian critics are criticizing the deal on ntdv show
> they are saying why we choose Rafael when worlds powers are now shifting to 5th gen



It's not many Indians, it's just Ajay Shukla and his points are just hilarious. He still thinks that F35 will be available in 2 to 3 years, he ignored the facts that the air marshal said about F35 wasn't offered for MMRCA, just F16s and F18s and he fails to understand that the F35 wouldn't even fulfill the minimum flight performance requirements of IAF. Be it speed, maneuverability, TWR or G limits, let alone that a licence production or ToT would not be possible. To sum it up, he has no idea what he is talking about and his views are completelly contrary to what IAF or MoD really wants with MMRCA!

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## Jon Snow

GURU DUTT said:


> IAF went for Rafale because
> #1: commanlity with Mirrage
> 
> #2: *Omnirole...prooved its worth in libiya campain*
> 
> #3:* Spectra prooved its worth in libiya campain*
> 
> #4:* Lower Infrared signature + better stealth*
> 
> #5: much easy to maintain , as IAF oparates Mirrage 2000
> 
> #6: price
> 
> #7: *french repution of sanction free supply of part's& wepon's*
> 
> #8: *Full TOT withsoucre code's of AESA Radar's*
> 
> #9: *better kick backs*



#2.Proved it's Omnirole in Libya?? Are you serious?? They bombed a few defenseless targets and while they did a very good job, it only proved they are good at A2G ( and that too only against old outdated equipment) The term Omnirole or Multi role includes A2A as well which they did not prove.

#3. Same argument as above - Spectra was used against old and outdated equipment manned by undertrained personnel ( The few SAMs which the Libyans had).

#4. How exactly? 

#7. The russians also had a reputation of not putting us under sanctions - didnt seem to help them in the competition.

#8. Everybody was providing that - It was part of the initial proposal - you couldnt even participate if you were unwilling to transfer technology.

#9. There are no kick backs in this deal - with 7 unsatisfied countries - all looking for a way to kick the rafale out of the reckoning - they will be sniffing around for even a hint of unfair play to open the competition all over again


The Only reasons to chose the rafale were the 643 parameters which the IAF laid down and with most of which the Rafale complied and being L1


----------



## GURU DUTT

Jon Snow said:


> #2.Proved it's Omnirole in Libya?? Are you serious?? They bombed a few defenseless targets and while they did a very good job, it only proved they are good at A2G ( and that too only against old outdated equipment) The term Omnirole or Multi role includes A2A as well which they did not prove.
> 
> #3. Same argument as above - Spectra was used against old and outdated equipment manned by undertrained personnel ( The few SAMs which the Libyans had).
> 
> #4. How exactly?
> 
> #7. The russians also had a reputation of not putting us under sanctions - didnt seem to help them in the competition.
> 
> #8. Everybody was providing that - It was part of the initial proposal - you couldnt even participate if you were unwilling to transfer technology.
> 
> #9. There are no kick backs in this deal - with 7 unsatisfied countries - all looking for a way to kick the rafale out of the reckoning - they will be sniffing around for even a hint of unfair play to open the competition all over again
> 
> 
> The Only reasons to chose the rafale were the 643 parameters which the IAF laid down and with most of which the Rafale complied and being L1



bhaijaan mujh par kyoon bigarte ho?????????

mujhe jo pata chala bata diyaa ab main koi PHD to hoon nahee jo aapke complex qustions ke jawab de paoon ....usne jo line,s kaheen thee wo maine jitna apnee hisab se yaad kar ke bataa diye ....ab bachhe kee jaan loge kya?????????


----------



## GURU DUTT

Raje amar said:


> US of A may have provided them much more than expected



but sir they were also not willing to give anything worthwhile to show(what netas+babu's +general's show to publick)

samjha karo saaeen ?????????


----------



## crimemaster_gogo

praveen007 said:


> .
> .
> Are you talking about this news artical posted by me.
> .
> MRCA News & Discussions - Page 389



not exactly but it was a thread as far as i can recall.


----------



## sancho

Jon Snow said:


> #2.Proved it's Omnirole in Libya?? Are you serious?? They bombed a few defenseless targets and while they did a very good job, it only proved they are good at A2G ( and that too only against old outdated equipment) The term Omnirole or Multi role includes A2A as well which they did not prove.



- Recon role
- Deep Strike 
- SEAD 
- CAS with LGBs and PGMs
- Antiship strikes
- Tanker roles
- Air superiority role (was deployed over Libya "before" air defence and air force were taken out!!!)

If you can name a single other fighter that was deployed in so many different roles in Libya, I will addmit that Rafale that is not omnirole proven! 




Jon Snow said:


> #3. Same argument as above - Spectra was used against old and outdated equipment manned by undertrained personnel ( The few SAMs which the Libyans had).



Not according to US forces, because they stated that the air defence systems was similar to Iraqis and that's why they prefered to strike them with B2 bombers and cruise missiles, before their fighters entered Libyan air space. If it wouldn't be capable, why would the most powerful air force in the world refuse to use their fighters and take the way more costly way to take out the air defences?



Jon Snow said:


> #4. How exactly?



Debatable but lower IR signature of the M88 engines, more RAM treatment of the airframe with coatings and sawtooth patterns, smaller size, good jamming capabilities, passive detection and targeting...
...all this adds to beeing less observable like Dassault is calling it.




Jon Snow said:


> #7. The russians also had a reputation of not putting us under sanctions - didnt seem to help them in the competition.



Because one aim of MMRCA was not to be more dependent on Russian fighters and the reliability of Russia clearly helped them in case of all the Migs, MKIs and in future FGFAs don't you think? 




Jon Snow said:


> #8. Everybody was providing that - It was part of the initial proposal - you couldnt even participate if you were unwilling to transfer technology.



That's wrong, the US didn't offered ToT of critical parts like AESA radars and neither was full ToT or something like that a requirement, nor will be provided by any manufacturer. Only full ToT of certain parts will be provided and while the US might offered full ToT of airframe parts, the Europeans could offer full ToT of AESA radars, or ToT of critical parts like engine or EW systems too. Mig offered similar as well, but these techs hardly were useful for India, since we already get even better Russian techs via MKI and FGFA.

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## hembo

One more reason could be Saudi purchasing Typhoon.. And Pakistan AF's close proximity to Saudi AF will allow them to thoroughly investigate the typhoon in the near future..

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## bdslph

i would say india made the right decision by buying the RAFALE


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## Markus

The Rafale is good....no doubt...........but I am just skeptical about the Rafales that the HAL will manufactore after tech transfer....I hope they dont start falling out of the skies.....


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## hembo

Markus said:


> The Rafale is good....no doubt...........but I am just skeptical about the Rafales that the HAL will manufactore after tech transfer....I hope they dont start falling out of the skies.....



That's completely unnecessary worry, IMO.. Are the SU-MKI's falling out of the sky.. 

Its gonna be great with half of the money invested in India.. a complete WIN-WIN situation.

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## Markus

hembo said:


> That's completely unnecessary worry, IMO.. Are the SU-MKI's falling out of the sky..
> 
> Its gonna be great with half of the money invested in India.. a complete WIN-WIN situation.



Hey it was supposed to be a light hearted comment...but anyways, HAL will not absorb complete Rafale tech, only 85% will be absorbed, remaining 15% will keep coming from France.

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## Jon Snow

sancho said:


> - Recon role
> - Deep Strike
> - SEAD
> - CAS with LGBs and PGMs
> - Antiship strikes
> - Tanker roles
> - Air superiority role (was deployed over Libya "before" air defence and air force were taken out!!!)
> 
> If you can name a single other fighter that was deployed in so many different roles in Libya, I will addmit that Rafale that is not omnirole proven!



The Tornado - 
Vital role for British airpower over Libya | Aviation International News
" In a conflict where it was vital to match striking power to target type, the Tornado offered extra flexibility thanks to its warload of smaller 500-pound Raytheon Paveway IV bombs (with fuzing selectable in flight) and 100-pound MBDA Brimstone missiles. In particular, the laser-guided version of Brimstone became the weapon of choice in urban environments."
Some Tornados also *carried the RAPTOR reconnaissance pod *containing the Goodrich DB-110 long focal-length electro-optic camera.
Initial analysis - Libyan No Fly Zone | Aerospace | The Royal Aeronautical Society
Italy, for its part, has deployed its aircraft carrier with Navy AV-8Bs, while the Italian Air Force has flown* SEAD missions with Tornado ECRs*. Though the air defences of Libya were not considered first tier (TV footage of one SA-2 site showed extremely rusted missiles) the fact that only Italy and Germany have dedicated SEAD aircraft means once again Europe had to rely on massive firepower of the US.
Libyan Navy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
On 17 August 2011, an* RAF Tornado GR4 struck a moving Libyan Navy patrol boat *with Paveway IV bombs. The boat had been observed supporting pro-Gaddafi forces during the Second Battle of Zawiya.[8]

So thats Recon, SEAD, Deep Strike, Anti Ship role - all done very well by a 30 year old fighter - and trust me it could even take on air superiority missions if the britishers weren't too focused on showing off the typhoon. The Libyan air force used decades old equipment - mirage f1 and su 22 - shooting down a couple of those planes can hardly be a proof of air superiority.







> Not according to US forces, because they stated that the air defence systems was similar to Iraqis and that's why they prefered to strike them with B2 bombers and cruise missiles, before their fighters entered Libyan air space. If it wouldn't be capable, why would the most powerful air force in the world refuse to use their fighters and take the way more costly way to take out the air defences?



Could Libya's Rusty Air Defenses Challenge a No-Fly Zone? | Danger Room | Wired.com
Here's a report on libyan air defence before the campaign began - and this is the conclusion
**the Libyan air-defense network &#8220;was not capable of repelling an attack over 20 years ago*,&#8221; O&#8217;Connor concluded, &#8220;and there is no reason to suspect that it will be capable of such action today.&#8221;


> Debatable but lower IR signature of the M88 engines, more RAM treatment of the airframe with coatings and sawtooth patterns, smaller size, good jamming capabilities, passive detection and targeting...
> ...all this adds to beeing less observable like Dassault is calling it.


Thats exactly what I said - The point is debatable - We cant conclude that the rafale is the stealthier than its competitors because the EFT was also called stealthy by some so was the super hornet - the russians claimed they had reduced the RCS of the mig 35 5 times as compared to the mig 29. So no conclusions can be made as to this.





> Because one aim of MMRCA was not to be more dependent on Russian fighters and the reliability of Russia clearly helped them in case of all the Migs, MKIs and in future FGFAs don't you think?


My point was that this factor probably did not effect the decision. I hardly think any other european nation is going to put an arms embargo over such a lucrative market any time in the future, especially when their own economies are not doing so well( to put it mildly)




> That's wrong, the US didn't offered ToT of critical parts like AESA radars and neither was full ToT or something like that a requirement, nor will be provided by any manufacturer. Only full ToT of certain parts will be provided and while the US might offered full ToT of airframe parts, the Europeans could offer full ToT of AESA radars, or ToT of critical parts like engine or EW systems too. Mig offered similar as well, but these techs hardly were useful for India, since we already get even better Russian techs via MKI and FGFA.


Transfer of technology was a clause in the agreement - The question was extent and while it is true that the US might not have given us the ToT of AESA radar all the rest were willing - so this was not an offer from france alone and hence not a factor in it getting chosen OVER another plane offering the same deal


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## boris

hembo said:


> One more reason could be Saudi purchasing Typhoon.. And Pakistan AF's close proximity to Saudi AF will allow them to thoroughly investigate the typhoon in the near future..



Now this is a good point raised.


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## ARCHON

hembo said:


> One more reason could be Saudi purchasing Typhoon.. And Pakistan AF's close proximity to Saudi AF will allow them to thoroughly investigate the typhoon in the near future..



wht investigate??? did they do 600 plus parameter chk? fly trials in high, low, dry, snow altitudes??? maybe few have fly like shahid kapoor and that tata guy


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## ARCHON

DrSomnath999 said:


> *1*.India got an *operational ready platform *which has tested & proven capabalities while EF 2000 typhoon was like a post dated cheque for india in which many



You were supporting EFT earlier in a layman thread.. now U turn.. hahahaha...

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## KRAIT

ARCHON said:


> You were supporting EFT earlier in a layman thread.. now U turn.. hahahaha...


Hum indian hote hi aise hain.....
Dono haath ghee main

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## IND151

KRAIT said:


> Can you give more info on Stealth version of Rafale....



there are rumors about new Rafale fighter which is 4.75 gen fighter with external weapons bay.

---------- Post added at 09:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:12 PM ----------




ARCHON said:


> You were supporting EFT earlier in a layman thread.. now U turn.. hahahaha...



everybody loves 3 things.... winners,winners and winners, and Rafael is winner!

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## Jon Snow

hembo said:


> One more reason could be Saudi purchasing Typhoon.. And Pakistan AF's close proximity to Saudi AF will allow them to thoroughly investigate the typhoon in the near future..


 
I dont think so - the UAE will soon purchase 60 odd rafale and the PAF has good relations with them as well - so they can thoroughly investigate the Rafale too in near future.


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## The enlightened

Okay, 
Seriously. How many threads do we need for M-MRCA.

---------- Post added at 09:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:20 PM ----------




Jon Snow said:


> I dont think so - the UAE will soon purchase 60 odd rafale and the PAF has good relations with them as well - so they can thoroughly investigate the Rafale too in near future.


Saudi's are unlikely to allow Pakistan to look into their jets, as they are more or less their Uncle's puppet.


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## Indus Falcon

The enlightened said:


> Okay,
> Seriously. How many threads do we need for M-MRCA.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 09:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:20 PM ----------
> 
> 
> Saudi's are unlikely to allow Pakistan to look into their jets, as they are more or less their Uncle's puppet.



He said UAE not Saudi. Secondly, you'd be surprised at the level of cooperation GCC forces have with Pakistan

---------- Post added at 08:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:03 PM ----------




Jon Snow said:


> I dont think so - the UAE will soon purchase 60 odd rafale and the PAF has good relations with them as well - so they can thoroughly investigate the Rafale too in near future.



In the UAE - Rafale context, BAE is supposed to be offering a better package for the EF's. I believe that is the reason for the delay.

---------- Post added at 08:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:06 PM ----------




The enlightened said:


> Okay,
> Seriously. How many threads do we need for M-MRCA.



Could the mods merge all the Rafale/MMRCA threads into one?


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## indian navy

rafale will be a good option for indian and it will take less time


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## hembo

The enlightened said:


> Okay,
> Seriously. How many threads do we need for M-MRCA.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 09:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:20 PM ----------
> 
> 
> Saudi's are unlikely to allow Pakistan to look into their jets, as they are more or less their Uncle's puppet.


 
Well, we did anger the UNCLE by rejecting both of their jets. So expect no assistance (at least in this regard) from uncle.


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## hembo

Jon Snow said:


> I dont think so - the UAE will soon purchase 60 odd rafale and the PAF has good relations with them as well - so they can thoroughly investigate the Rafale too in near future.



UAE may or may not.. Typhoon has a pretty good chance there..

Saudi already has..

Also, PAF & SaudiAF carries out joint exercises quite often.

And, also, even if I did bring in this angle, it actually would not be that big a issue (that is, if PAF has some good look into these ACs).

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## Zabaniyah

Qatar and Kuwait are also interested in the Rafale. 
Qatar, Kuwait interested in Rafale warplanes - Yahoo! News

Hard to say about UAE.


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## S.U.R.B.

> IAF is keen the deliveries of the 126 fighters begin from mid-2015 onwards to stem its fast-eroding combat edge. Plans are in place to base the first MMRCA squadrons in the western sector against Pakistan, first _Ambala_ and then _Jodhpur_, followed by _Hashimara_ in the eastern sector against China, say sources.
> "The first MMRCA built in HAL should roll out in 2017-18. Thereafter, HAL will deliver six jets per year, which will go up to 20 per year later. HAL will achieve 85% technology absorption by the end," said a source.



<<<<<>>>>>


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## DrSomnath999

ARCHON said:


> You were supporting EFT earlier in a layman thread.. now U turn.. hahahaha...


hota hey boss ,
Dont take seriously any thing from 2 people on this world INDIAN POLITICIAN & Dr Somnath 999 (lord of 32 teeth)
BTW this pic is itself a sour grape for us now

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## SQ8

The "china card" has been a stupid ruse from the start to justify the MMRCA where India's neighbors are concerned.
Its been for Pakistan mainly..

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## DrSomnath999

Zabaniya said:


> Qatar and Kuwait are also interested in the Rafale.
> Qatar, Kuwait interested in Rafale warplanes - Yahoo! News
> 
> Hard to say about UAE.


well now dassault would use this success to woo UAE as well but Typhoon would not leave no stone unturned to grab that deal

---------- Post added at 10:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:50 PM ----------




hembo said:


> UAE may or may not.. Typhoon has a pretty good chance there..
> 
> Saudi already has..
> 
> Also, PAF & SaudiAF carries out joint exercises quite often.
> 
> And, also, even if I did bring in this angle, it actually would not be that big a issue (that is, if PAF has some good look into these ACs).


but what if rafale wins


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## Abingdonboy

Jon Snow said:


> I dont think so - the UAE will soon purchase 60 odd rafale and the PAF has good relations with them as well - so they can thoroughly investigate the Rafale too in near future.



No matter how good relations are nations don't just let other nations thoroughly evaluate their warplanes. Not to mention UAE aren't stupid, they are continuously improving relations with India and would be unlikely to favour Pakistan over India in this circumstance. This is a myth Pakistani members like to assert.

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## Firemaster

DrSomnath999 said:


> hota hey boss ,
> Dont take seriously any thing from 2 people on this world INDIAN POLITICIAN & Dr Somnath 999 (lord of 32 teeth)
> BTW this pic is itself a sour grape for us now



Abey Pehle ek baaat clear ker de Tu LAYMAN hai ya fir LORD OF ....


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## Abingdonboy

Oscar said:


> The "china card" has been a stupid ruse from the start to justify the MMRCA where India's neighbors are concerned.
> Its been for Pakistan mainly..



I'd have to strongly disagree. India could easily take on PAF without the MMRCA with the MKI, UPG M2k, UPG MIG-29 LCA ,etc and soon FGFA/PAK-FA. The MMRCA is purely to fill a gap in the IAF. Like has been constantly exerted by top Indian military brass, the Indian armed forces ARE NOT opponent centred but theatre centred. As such the need was seen by the IAF some time ago to have an MMRCA complement its fleet for whatever the IAF were asked to do. 


You can't keep saying such things, Pakistan isn't the centre of the universe and I think India has far moved on from seeing Pakistan as the sole threat to her.


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## DrSomnath999

Abingdonboy said:


> No matter how good relations are nations don't just let other nations thoroughly evaluate their warplanes. Not to mention UAE aren't stupid, they are continuously improving relations with India and would be unlikely to favour Pakistan over India in this circumstance. This is a myth Pakistani members like to assert.


well if that is the case pakistan also can evaluate SU 30 MKK/j11 from china & can learn many things .I agree every platform is 
different for different countries .

---------- Post added at 11:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:01 PM ----------




Firemaster said:


> Abey Pehle ek baaat clear ker de Tu LAYMAN hai ya fir LORD OF ....


mein ek tharkee huin jisne yeh thread banaya hey
Top 10 Busty Actresses of Bollywood (Guys ONLY!)


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## Kazhugu

Oscar said:


> The "china card" has been a stupid ruse from the start to justify the MMRCA where India's neighbors are concerned.
> Its been for Pakistan mainly..



rafale is overkill for paf....when even the paf has no or scant answers to the mki (& heavily upgraded mig 29 smts and mirage 2000s) and with the induction of fgfa in this decade...

the decision for going for mrca is to bolster the air defence against chinese where our only hope is to match them qualitatively and to fill dwindling squadron numbers...

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## Abingdonboy

DrSomnath999 said:


> well if that is the case pakistan also can evaluate SU 30 MKK/j11 from china & can learn many things .I agree every platform is
> different for different countries .
> 
> ---------- Post added at 11:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:01 PM ----------
> 
> 
> mein ek tharkee huin jisne yeh thread banaya hey
> Top 10 Busty Actresses of Bollywood (Guys ONLY!)



Like you've stated, the SU-30 MKI is VERY different to the MKK, it is FAR more advanced with a better radar, avionics and 3D TVC. Not to mention with the soon to be implemented "SUPER 30 MKI" UPG will further increase the depth of differences between the two, soon you won't even be able to compare the MKK to the MKI.


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## DrSomnath999

Oscar said:


> The "china card" has been a stupid ruse from the start to justify the MMRCA where India's neighbors are concerned.
> Its been for Pakistan mainly..


well that is the problem with pakistan they think india has only 1 enemy & is one nation centric .But the fact is India 's aging MIG 21 fleet needs replacement for the sake of saving lives of our pilots so MMRCA is badly needed .


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## anathema

Abingdonboy said:


> No matter how good relations are nations don't just let other nations thoroughly evaluate their warplanes. Not to mention UAE aren't stupid, they are continuously improving relations with India and would be unlikely to favour Pakistan over India in this circumstance. This is a myth Pakistani members like to assert.



This is no myth Abingdonboy as Jon pointed out - it is a definite possibility that we have to be well prepared off. Pakistanis do depute instructors , carry joint excercises with Saudis. In the event - Saudis get Rafale - Pakistanis (Chinese) will be very well aware of its capabilities as time passes by. Fighter evaluation at a detailed level might not be possible - however if PAF pilots gets hands on this machine then pretty well sure that inputs/notes are going to pass to GHQ. Even though relations will be improving with India - there is no away that Saudis will publicly annouce this arrangement for India to raise a ruckus.


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## DrSomnath999

Abingdonboy said:


> Like you've stated, the SU-30 MKI is VERY different to the MKK, it is FAR more advanced with a better radar, avionics and 3D TVC. Not to mention with the soon to be implemented "SUPER 30 MKI" UPG will further increase the depth of differences between the two, soon you won't even be able to compare the MKK to the MKI.


i know it bro but i was giving an eaxmple to prove brother Hembo's thinking as wrong as similar platform doesnt mean u can acquire
any information by just inspecting it

---------- Post added at 11:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:13 PM ----------




anathema said:


> This is no myth Abingdonboy as Jon pointed out - it is a definite possibility that we have to be well prepared off. Pakistanis do depute instructors , carry joint excercises with Saudis. In the event - Saudis get Rafale - Pakistanis (Chinese) will be very well aware of its capabilities as time passes by. Fighter evaluation at a detailed level might not be possible - however if PAF pilots gets hands on this machine then pretty well sure that inputs/notes are going to pass to GHQ. Even though relations will be improving with India - there is no away that Saudis will publicly annouce this arrangement for India to raise a ruckus.


but mate saudis have EF 2000 typhoon they dont have rafale


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## anathema

DrSomnath999 said:


> but mate saudis have EF 2000 typhoon they dont have rafale



Apologies - I meant UAE - i always end of confusing Saudi's and UAE


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## Abingdonboy

anathema said:


> Apologies - I meant UAE - i always end of confusing Saudi's and UAE



Exactly, my points still stand.


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## anoop

since there is news of additional fighter planes there is increase in demands from various quarters to include those which lost race in the initial phase of MMRCA specially those amercian one arguing that american are providing us with nuclear and space advance technologies. i just wanna ask why we should buy(considers) american plane just because america is providing us with all those technologies. is america providing those technology free to us . no they are charging and making big good bucks. even pakistan gets something on soft loan but not free. so its better to buy from those which provides lucrative deal then those which comes with string attached.buying american one or any other other then present selected one aka Rafale would stupid as would increase expenditure on infrastructure plus these wont come cheap on account of their small number. so better option would be to stick the selected


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## Shaurya

below_freezing said:


> a naval embargo and the country turning into a war zone would instantly take out the PAK-FA and Rafale out of action, as the only plane that could be maintained on India supplied parts would then be the MKI.



Whoever told you that, please slap him from my side, maybe, you didn't read correctly that HAL will manufacture these crafts, it WON'T be imported from France or Russia, I used to think you people have a IQ of 105 , then why ask such silly questions?


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## sancho

Jon Snow said:


> So thats Recon, SEAD, Deep Strike, Anti Ship role - all done very well by a 30 year old fighter - and trust me it could even take on air superiority missions if the britishers weren't too focused on showing off the typhoon. The Libyan air force used decades old equipment - mirage f1 and su 22 - shooting down a couple of those planes can hardly be a proof of air superiority.



You are putting too much emphasis on the age, without taking into account, that the Tornado was able to do so much (but still less then Rafale), because it was upgraded and is now a very capable fighter. By your logic, our Mirage 2000s and Mig 29s that also are around 25 years old, are not capable too, which is a big mistake mate! Even our Mig 21 Bisons can take out a modern fighter today with it's BVR capability, although compared 1 on 1, tech by tech it is clearly inferior. 
The Tornado were the prime fighter of the RAF in Libya and the EF only assisted them, while Rafale clearly showed the best performance in all roles and that's why it's omni role proven now. Especially it's penetration capablilities thanks to SPECTRA and it's low detectability, as well as the SEAD capability impressed even journalists that normally prefered EF. 




Jon Snow said:


> Here's a report on libyan air defence before the campaign began - and this is the conclusion



I was talking about an official statement of the US denfence ministry, after the B2 and cruise missile strikes. Again, the fact that neither their F15s, nor even the F18 Growlers were used before these strikes says enough about how the US assessed the risks.



Jon Snow said:


> Thats exactly what I said - The point is debatable - We cant conclude that the rafale is the stealthier than its competitors because the EFT was also called stealthy by some so was the super hornet - the russians claimed they had reduced the RCS of the mig 35 5 times as compared to the mig 29. So no conclusions can be made as to this.



Exactly, we can't say it for sure and that's why I don't debate on figures, but we can take certain things into account! EF don't has these special RAM treatment, so don't has the same benefit in reduction of the RCS. EFs engine has a higher IR signature and is easier to detect in this regard. It also has active puls doppler MAWS, which makes it more detectable in the EM fields than Rafale with IR MAWS. EF has passive targeting capability only via IRST, which makes it dependable to active radar in BVR and in the same field it can't offer a MICA IR, that allows silent interceptions from long ranges. All this are reasons why Rafale is less detectable than EF, because that was one of the development aims of the Rafale, beeing hard to detect and offer alternative detection and targeting capabilities, beside the radar.



Jon Snow said:


> My point was that this factor probably did not effect the decision. I hardly think any other european nation is going to put an arms embargo over such a lucrative market any time in the future, especially when their own economies are not doing so well( to put it mildly)



It don't have to be embargos, but it can be simpler things. During Kargil war we changed certain things on the Mirage fighters, neither Dassault, nor France ever complained about it. On the other side, when we sold the old Islander aircrafts to Myanmar, what was the reaction?



> *Britain warns India against selling aircraft to Myanmar*
> 
> NEW DELHI: British High Commissioner Michael Arthur on Monday said India's sale of aircraft to Myanmar could impact its Navy's plan to replace fighters on the aircraft carrier INS Viraat and supply of spares for helicopters. ...



The Hindu : National : Britain warns India against selling aircraft to Myanmar


And now we are again not doing what they or the US wants again, by not imposing an oil embargos on Iran, so is it possible that we get spare issues for British or US aircrafts again? Sure it is, we simply can't rule it out and since it effects the security of our country, we shouldn't test it.




Jon Snow said:


> Transfer of technology was a clause in the agreement - The question was extent and while it is true that the US might not have given us the ToT of AESA radar all the rest were willing - so this was not an offer from france alone and hence not a factor in it getting chosen OVER another plane offering the same deal



Yes, ToT was part of the agreement, but not "full" ToT and not of "critical" parts, everybody new what we wanted and this competition gave us the chance to get a hand on these high techs. Rafale, EF and the Mig were the only fighters that could be offered with much or even full ToT of the radar, since they develop their radars on their own unlike Gripen and from these 3 only Rafale has an AESA developed yet. The Zhuk AE is still under development, the Captor E is not even available as a prototype or fully funded. So the French indeed had some advantages here!

As I said many times, Rafale for India means the best package of advantages, because it offers advantages in all areas and that's most likely why it was selected. It simply was the obvious choice for us, while in other countries it might not.

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## sancho

hembo said:


> UAE may or may not.. Typhoon has a pretty good chance there..



Not really, the EF is only mentioned because the UAE tries to put pressure on Dassault to lower the costs, that's all. Even I say the EF would be the better fighter for the UAE, since they would love to fund upgrades and it offers exactly what the UAE needs, a twin engine air superiority fighter above the single engine F16 B60 for strikes, that is also able to use their Black Shaheen missiles. The key problem is, that the UAE has close political relations to France and wouldn't risk that, secondly that they don't really replace older fighters. France has asked them to buy Rafale, they asked to rebuy the Mirage instead although some of them are brand new! The EF partners can't buy them back and that's why they can go only for Rafale, in case they want new fighters now. Either they buy Rafale, or they stick with Mirage 2000-9! 



Oscar said:


> The "china card" has been a stupid ruse from the start to justify the MMRCA where India's neighbors are concerned.
> Its been for Pakistan mainly..



Surprising statement from you!

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## danger007

hmmm, glad to see no rafale vs jf-17 threads


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## Shaurya

@Oscar please say it's a joke, MKI's are more than enough for you, infact it's the china card that's more important and justifies, pakistan is no longer a threat (and I suspect it wasn't a threat for a long long time) the only problem are the non state actors or guests that pakistan sends regularly which is a bit of a headache otherwise, I doubt pakistan can even afford a 15 day showdown

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## SQ8

Abingdonboy said:


> You can't keep saying such things, *Pakistan isn't the centre of the universe and I think India has far moved on from seeing Pakistan as the sole threat to her*.



Yet the MMRCA is being focused on Pakistan.
What incentive do you offer that Pakistan is still not the center of India's focus?
All India needs to take out Pakistan are the MKI's,Mig-29's and M2K's.. the PAF will fall in two weeks max.
Then why the focus of the MMRCA on the west?

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## Indus Falcon

Abingdonboy said:


> No matter how good relations are nations don't just let other nations thoroughly evaluate their warplanes. Not to mention UAE aren't stupid, they are continuously improving relations with India and would be unlikely to favour Pakistan over India in this circumstance. *This is a myth Pakistani members like to assert.*



I guess it's a myth that Pakistani military personnel, as well as ordinary Pakistanis serve in the GCC forces? 

Btw, there is a member on this forum who used to fly Apaches, and served in Bosnia as well. So now you need to decide how stupid you are and how good your relations are with them!!


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## Bl[i]tZ

_General Jean-Paul Paloméros, France 49th Chief of Staff of the French Air Force_

*EXCLUSIVE. By the time New Delhi has selected the Rafale, General Jean-Paul Palomeros, Chief of Staff of the Air Force, told France-Soir in which the French intervention in Libya has demonstrated the qualities the unit to potential buyers.*


*France-Soir Is Operation Harmattan, Libya - during which the Rafale was committed - played a decisive role in this first export success?
*
*General Jean-Paul Palomeros* It is clear that the success of the Air Force and the Rafale during Harmattan were studied by every army in the world. My foreign counterparts want to talk with me. They wonder why we have been able to send the Rafale as quickly perform all types of missions. This operation was a demonstration of the capabilities of versatility of the device. 

*F.-S. Can you elaborate on these missions?*

*J. Gal-PP* had to both impose a flight ban over Libya, involving ground forces against Gaddafi who were at the gates of Benghazi and information on its military enemy. March 19, 2011, the first patrol, these three goals were achieved. Apart from the imposition of the no flight zone, we have learned the precision weaponry and fed our data for the following assignments. Thanks to its detection systems and protective ground / air, the Rafale was able to intervene without destroying all previously Libyan antiaircraft systems, including missile ramps for which we were the most worrying threat.

*F.-S. You have participated directly in negotiations to sell the Rafale with the Indian authorities. What was your role alongside engineers, commercial and political and French?
*
*J. Gal-PP* I play my role as Chief of Staff. The partnership with the Indian military is old. For years, we do exercises with the Indian Air Force (IAF) Mirage 2000 that uses a camera valued throughout its ranks. My role is that this relationship is maintained at the highest level, arguing the merits of our facilities and those of the training of our pilots.






*F.-S. And for the Rafale, specifically?*

*J. Gal-PP* Show what qualities of the operational device, its benefits in terms of availability and maintenance. The availability of the fleet is the responsibility of the Chief of Staff. It was 95% during Operation Harmattan. In this field, France has set a high bar. To maintain a permanent Rafale, we need seven or eight mechanics. For some of our competitors, this is almost double. The cost of aircraft maintenance is thereby reduced. It was one of the primary criteria in the design of the aircraft.

*F.-S. What is this sale going to change for the Air Force?*

*Gal J.-PP* The big interest for us is to work with the armed forces of friendly countries which have the same weapons systems than ours. The Indian Air Force will bring us an original feedback that will allow us to develop the capabilities of the device. This is what happened with the crews of Qatari Mirages that participated with us in operations in Libya. Finally, increasing the series, it will reduce production costs and maintenance. Just yesterday, we were told that the Rafale was very expensive. *It just proved today that he is probably the best aircraft in the world and, in the end, it is not expensive.*

Général Palomeros : "Le Rafale est le meilleur avion du monde" | France Soir

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## jha

Someone in BRF is saying that 65-70 Gripens with Full TOT are being procured in addition to these 126 Rafales...


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## KRAIT

jha said:


> Someone in BRF is saying that 65-70 Gripens with Full TOT are being procured in addition to these 126 Rafales...


Credible link if you have will be appreciated....
BTW my view is that india won't go for Gripens.


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## KRAIT

Oscar said:


> Yet the MMRCA is being focused on Pakistan.
> What incentive do you offer that Pakistan is still not the center of India's focus?
> All India needs to take out Pakistan are the MKI's,Mig-29's and M2K's.. the PAF will fall in two weeks max.
> Then why the focus of the MMRCA on the west?


You yourself answered the question. If PAF will fall in two weeks max, why would we need deep strike excellent A2G fighter with advanced avionics and weapons...may be for a neighbor like China which has superior aircraft and larger airforce, rail and road network to border areas.


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## Shaurya

Abu Nasar said:


> I guess it's a myth that *Pakistani military personnel, as well as ordinary Pakistanis serve in the GCC* forces?
> 
> Btw, there is a member on this forum who used to fly Apaches, and served in Bosnia as well. So now you need to decide how stupid you are and how good your relations are with them!!



Funniest thing eva  so you mean just because gorkhas (I love them) serve in the Indian army, we would prefer nepal even if they are not economically powerful?? lol, we all can see who is the stupid here...


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## Nishan_101

Yeti said:


> China has nothing like the P-8 sub hunter we can make mincemeat of their noisy Han class subs



I have been hearing that INAF will going to order even more P-8Is other than the 8 order and they have a total requirement of 30 of such machines? What do you say. I have heard the same thing with C-130Js that IAF will going to have 30+ C-130Js(or other improved models) till 2025?

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## Shaurya

Nishan_101 said:


> I have been hearing that INAF will going to order even more P-8Is other than the 8 order and they have a total requirement of 30 of such machines? What do you say. I have heard the same thing with C-130Js that IAF will going to have 30+ C-130Js(or other improved models) till 2025?



Maybe, maybe not, also, a joint development is underway between India-Russia to develop a transport aircraft (similar to C-130s) so it's better to wait and watch...


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## Nishan_101

Sorry 
Really I have been thinking about the Rafael N the dual seat version of Rafeal M as this wasn't possible due to the lack of funds and now Dassault has some cash in near future from this $20 Billion 200+ Planes deal and now they are surely going to put this in Rafael N project and its good for INAF's IAC-2 and IAC-3, which is still under construction. I am sure if IAF has selected it then INAF will also look into this deal too.what do you say?


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## praveen007

*IN FOCUS: India&#8217;s MMRCA selection advances decade-long search for MiG-21 replacement | idrw.org
++
IN FOCUS:- India&#8217;s MMRCA selection advances decade- long search for MiG-21 replacement
.
.*
SOURCE: FLIGHT GLOBAL
India&#8217;s 31 January selection of the Dassault Rafale
for its more than $10 billion medium multi-role
combat aircraft (MMRCA) requirement launches
the next stage in a tortuous competition that had
its origins a decade ago, when the Indian air force
favoured the French company&#8217;s Mirage 2000-5
fighter.
The Rafale (below) and Eurofighter Typhoon had
been in contention for the 126-aircraft deal since
April 2011, when a downselect decision eliminated
previous rivals the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super
Hornet; Lockheed Martin F-16 Block 60; RSK
MiG-35; and Saab Gripen NG.
If exclusive negotiations with Dassault prove
successful, the Indian air force will receive 18
Rafales delivered by the company in fly-away
condition, with the remaining 108 to be produced
in India by Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL). India
requires offsets valuing 50% of the total MMRCA
price tag as part of the acquisition.
India&#8217;s initial tender for the MMRCA capability
stipulated 660 requirements, and the first
proposals issued by the airframers ran to
5,000-6,000 pages each. Comprehensive field
tests of each aircraft were then undertaken,
including flying the aircraft &#8211; borrowed from
various air forces &#8211; to India at the manufacturers&#8217;
expense.
There they were subjected to batteries of tests
reflecting India&#8217;s varied geography. Flights were
conducted from Bengaluru in tropical conditions,
over the desert of Jaisalmer and at Leh in the
Himalayas, said to be the highest operational air
base in the world.
&#8220;We spent quite a lot on the tests with no
guarantee of a sale,&#8221; said an executive involved in
the race. &#8220;That said, the air force got a very good
impression of all the aircraft.&#8221;
The downselect decision was not without
controversy. One of the original stipulations of
the tender, for example, was an operational active
electronically scanned array (AESA) radar. At the
time of the tests, only the F-16 and Super Hornet
had operational AESA sets.
US industry sources hinted that bitter memories
of arms sanctions in the 1990s prompted New
Delhi to eliminate both American fighters.
Once acquired, the Indian air force&#8217;s new MMRCA
fleet will replace its aged RSK MiG-21 interceptors,
which have become the subject of national
scrutiny because of a high accident rate involving
the type. The incoming model will join a growing
combat inventory of Sukhoi and HAL-built
Su-30s, plus upgraded Dassault Mirage 2000s,
Sepecat/HAL Jaguars and Aeronautical
Development Agency Tejas light combat aircraft.
Other assets include MiG-23, -27 and -29 strike
aircraft.
Although New Delhi&#8217;s move to start negotiations
with Dassault stems from the Rafale beating the
Typhoon on price, the French type also
performed well during NATO- and US-led
operations over Libya during 2011, including
flights performed with M-model aircraft from the
deck of the aircraft carrier the Charles de Gaulle.


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## rockstarIN

Oscar said:


> Yet the MMRCA is being focused on Pakistan.
> What incentive do you offer that Pakistan is still not the center of India's focus?
> All India needs to take out Pakistan are the MKI's,Mig-29's and M2K's.. the PAF will fall in two weeks max.
> Then why the focus of the MMRCA on the west?



As sancho said, its surprising from your side. 

For years we left our north eastern border without guard even after 1962 episode thinking that Himalaya is the best border guard. But now things are changed.....China has updating infrastructure in Tibetan Plateau. J-10s are there. We should keep up the pace with others.

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## sudhir007

Paris to the hilt | idrw.org

The French kiss is running deep for Indias defence establishment this season.Tuesdays decision to select the Dassault Aviation-made Rafale fighter jet over the Eurofighter Typhoon as the aircraft that will power the Indian Air Force for the next 40 years is easily the biggest prize that France has won on any military order.

Some 800 French companies operate in India but only a select few in the defence sector. Areva in the nuclear power sector and Airbus (European conglomerate) in civil aviation have expanded their businesses, too.

But in the lucrative defence business, France is still behind Russia and Israel as a supplier to India. The award of the Rafale contract, possibly in April, will expand its lead hugely over the US, the UK and Western European countries. The Indian military has been steadily diversifying its arsenal this past decade even though nearly 70 per cent of the hardware is of Russian/Soviet origin.

It would be sweeter still for France because India has selected the Rafale after it was rejected by a clutch of countries that were or are looking to refurbish their air forces. Among them are Switzerland, the UAE, Brazil and South Korea. Also, even all of these countries put together were not looking to buy as many as 126  and possibly another 63 more  of the aircraft.

Frances year for Indias defence began with the announcement in the first week of January that MBDA was being awarded a contract for 490 Mica infrared and radar-controlled air-to-air missiles. The package will cost the defence budget $1.2 billion (about Rs 6,600 crore).

The award of the weapons package follows the order to upgrade the Indian Air Forces 51 Mirage 2000H fighter jets. France was given the contract in July last after years of negotiations that almost frustrated it. The Mica missiles from MBDA will equip these refurbished fighter jets.

MBDA is also in the race to sell Asraam missiles to arm the Indian Air Forces 100 Jaguar fighter-bomber aircraft. MBDA heavy-duty weapons used in Libya and Afghanistan, like bunker busting and deep penetration ground attack missiles, will arm the Rafale, too.

The Mirage modernisation order to French companies Dassault and Thales will cost about $2.4 billion (about Rs 11,000 crore). The total upgrade order, with the weapons package, will top Rs 17,500 crore.

French companies are preparing to race for an order for a second line of submarines for the Indian Navy that could be in the region of Rs 62,000 crore. Frances DCNS got the contract in 2005 to build six Scorpene submarines. The delivery of the submarines, being built in Cherbourg in France and also at Mazagon Docks in Mumbai is delayed because work languished over pricing issues in 2008.

The first of the submarines is now expected only in 2015. The contract was signed initially for $3 billion after a meeting between Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and President Jacques Chirac in September 2005. The price was revised to $4.5 billion after the contract was re-negotiated amid allegations from German rival HDW of a scandal.

Cutting across the various defence contracts that France is executing is French company Thales. Thales is a partner for the Mirage upgrade, the submarine development and will partner Dassault for the Rafale. It supplies night-vision devices to the Indian Army for its tanks.

French engine-maker Snecma powers the Mirage 2000 fighter aircraft and two Snecma M88 engines will go into each Rafale.

French company Safran has won a contract for an unspecified amount from Hindustan Aeronautics to supply Turbomeca Ardiden 1H helicopters for the Dhruv-II advanced light helicopter. Each helicopter has two engines and the Dhruv is steadily becoming one of the main rotorcraft for the army, the air force and the navy as also for central police organisations. The Turbomeca engines are made by Safran.


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## hembo

Oscar said:


> Yet the MMRCA is being focused on Pakistan.
> What incentive do you offer that Pakistan is still not the center of India's focus?
> All India needs to take out Pakistan are the MKI's,Mig-29's and M2K's.. the PAF will fall in two weeks max.
> Then why the focus of the MMRCA on the west?


 
We do not want to underestimate PAF... 

On a serious note, MMRCA (even though few squadrons may be placed in the northern (&western?, don't think so) sector, will be more China-centric.

There you go, I spilled it for ya.

---------- Post added at 09:00 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:59 AM ----------




rockstar said:


> As sancho said, its surprising from your side.
> 
> For years we left our north eastern border without guard even after 1962 episode thinking that Himalaya is the best border guard. But now things are changed.....China has updating infrastructure in Tibetan Plateau. J-10s are there. We should keep up the pace with others.


 
Exactly!!!

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## indianspetsnaz

which Rafale variant will India get?


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## Kazhugu

Oscar said:


> Yet the MMRCA is being focused on Pakistan.
> What incentive do you offer that Pakistan is still not the center of India's focus?
> All India needs to take out Pakistan are the MKI's,Mig-29's and M2K's.. the PAF will fall in two weeks max.
> Then why the focus of the MMRCA on the west?



man..how do you know they will be based in the west ?

if at all they are based in westerns frontier, one or two squadrons may be based out of sri nagar afb or udhampur afb in any response to chinese fighters ingressing through leh sector....


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## golmaal

*Britain, a key arms supplier to India, cannot believe that it lost out to France.*

February 5, 2012: 
Last year, a group of Indian journalists were taken on a tour of BAE System's Warton Aerodrome on Britain's northwest coast, where Eurofighter Typhoons for British and Saudi contracts were being assembled.

We watched a Typhoon swoop above, tried on and played around with the jet's pilot helmet, a Darth Vaderesque object with an optical tracking system fitted inside, and generally had as much of an adventure park-like experience that one could have at an aerodrome assembling war planes.

Everyone, of course, avoided being drawn into a discussion of the four-nation Eurofighter consortium's prospects for winning the $10-billion bid for 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) but there was certainly an air of cautious optimism.

Unsurprisingly, perhaps. *With the exception of Russia, no other country has had as lucrative a trade with India when it comes to arms as Britain has.*

*Between 1950 and 2010, India has imported $15.3 billion worth of arms from Britain, against $4 billion from France and $1.8 billion from Germany,* according to data from the Swedish International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI).

It is a dominance that has continued into the current decade: In the decade till 2010, British arms exports to India totalled $859 million, more than the total for Germany ($414 million) and France ($432 million) combined.

Britain's consistent position as second-to-Russia when it came to Indian arms imports has bucked the direction of their bilateral trade relationship, which has seen Britain slip behind other European nations in relative terms. And globally the Indian arms market matters more than any: between 2006 and 2010, it was the largest arms importer in the world, accounting for an impressive 9 per cent of international arms transfer volumes, according to SIPRI data.

FRANCE'S STEADY PRESENCE

France has been a steady presence in that market since the 1950s, and Germany since the 1960s  but failed to take over from Britain.

While France has established itself across platforms  from the Mirage to submarines  Germany, the third largest exporter of arms in the world, has failed to establish a major presence beyond engine systems in the Indian market, often because of the costliness of its product, says Siemon Wezeman, senior researcher at SIPRI.

The Indian market has also consistently remained a European battleground, unlike other Asian markets (US arms exports to Japan totalled $57 billion between 1950 and 2010 against $1.4 billion from Britain and $442 million from Germany).

Excluding Russia, India's four largest sources of arms are European (Switzerland and the Netherlands are both ahead of Israel, with the US never taking off as a major supplier, partly because of its relationship with Pakistan and partly for limited willingness to transfer technology and stringent conditions such as weapons inspections).

AGGRESSIVE UK CAMPAIGN

Though the Eurofighter bid was led by Germany's Cassidian, there was aggressive campaigning by Britain  not least during the Prime Minister, Mr David Cameron's visit to India in 2010 shortly after the British general election, during which a £500-million contract between BAE Systems and Hindustan Electronics for Hawk training jets was signed.

During a visit to India last year, Britain's development minister, Mr Andrew Mitchell, linked the strategic aim of the nation's decision to maintain £1.2 billion of aid to India  while scrapping it for many other countries  to trade and even directly to the Eurofighter campaign. The focus is also about seeking to sell Typhoon, he said, according to Britain's The Independent newspaper at the time.

In Germany, the reaction to the news that Dassault Aviation had emerged as the lowest, and therefore preferred bidder for the MMRCA contract was relatively muted, with criticism more focused on the limited role that the Chancellor, Ms Angela Merkel, played in the campaign, compared with the involvement of the French President, Mr Nicholas Sarkozy on Dassault's behalf.

By contrast, in Britain, it has been vitriolic at points, making clear the presumptiveness that prevailed in some quarters, despite the fact that it had been clear that having tested all the first-round contenders against 660 different criteria, the final round was all about costs. Well, that's gratitude, The Daily Mail newspaper  reportedly the most read newspaper web site in the world  declared furiously.

We give India £1 billion in aid, THEY snub the UK and give France a £13-billion jet contract! Some Conservative MPs called on the government to revisit the decision on aid.

Mr Cameron, steering clear of any retaliatory rhetoric, vowed to do all he could to persuade India to revisit the decision  though whether he will do so at a potential cost to diplomatic relations is another matter altogether, say some observers.

BOOST FOR SARKOZY

That a country that exited the Eurofighter project  originally initiated in the 1970s as a cost-sharing project across European nations  had beaten the consortium on the complex cost calculations, including life cycle costs and technology transfer, was bad enough.

Let alone a company that is yet to sell a single Rafale outside France, despite coming close to deals in the UAE, Brazil, Libya, Switzerland and South Korea. (At one point a French minister warned that the project would have to be scrapped if no sales were agreed soon).

That it was a French victory, so soon after India had opted for a $2.5-billion upgrade of its Mirage 2000s grated even more in Britain, given the sparring between the leaders of the two nations in the past few months.

Mr Sarkozy has made no secret of his contempt for Mr Cameron's criticism of Euro Zone nations  at one point telling him to join the euro or shut up'. *Just the day before the contract was announced Mr Sarkozy declared Britain had no industry left', a comment that wouldn't have rankled so much if there weren't elements of truth to it.*

The MMRCA contact is a boost for Mr Sarkozy so close to the May Presidential elections, with the potential impact  should the contract be signed  set to be felt beyond just Dassault Aviation itself (Thales will supply information systems and Safran the twin M88 engines).

Dogfight' was the way Ashley J. Tellis of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace characterised the global battle to win the MMRCA contract in a report last year, even before the initial shortlist was drawn up.

It has proved an accurate description: with the first round of short-listing last year being seen inaccurately by some of a rebuffing of a closer strategic relationship with the US, rather than the reality, which was a reflection of the military's technological needs and a willingness by the bidders to share technology.

Last week's decision is likely to face the same sort of pressure.

It is up to the government to combat that pressure, through transparency about how it arrived at the cost ranking, and to show that it is capable of having a relationship with diverse partners, based on a strict set of criteria, and that it is a relationship that no nation can take for granted.

Business Line : Opinion / Columns : Rafale win leaves UK smarting

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## SQ8

KRAIT said:


> You yourself answered the question. If PAF will fall in two weeks max, why would we need deep strike excellent A2G fighter with advanced avionics and weapons...may be for a neighbor like China which has superior aircraft and larger airforce, rail and road network to border areas.


 


rockstar said:


> As sancho said, its surprising from your side.
> 
> For years we left our north eastern border without guard even after 1962 episode thinking that Himalaya is the best border guard. But now things are changed.....China has updating infrastructure in Tibetan Plateau. J-10s are there. We should keep up the pace with others.


 


Kazhugu said:


> man..how do you know they will be based in the west ?
> 
> if at all they are based in westerns frontier, one or two squadrons may be based out of sri nagar afb or udhampur afb in any response to chinese fighters ingressing through leh sector....





> _IAF is keen the deliveries of the 126 fighters begin from mid-2015 onwards to stem its fast-eroding combat edge. Plans are in place to base the first MMRCA squadrons in the western sector against Pakistan, first Ambala and then Jodhpur, followed by Hashimara in the eastern sector against China, say sources_.



This is why I put the question forward.
While I know that its more of a fleet upgrade program.. the IAF should now base those squadrons which operated obsolescent aircraft and will be replaced by the MMRCA more to the north and east.


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## Kazhugu

Oscar said:


> This is why I put the question forward.
> While I know that its more of a fleet upgrade program.. the IAF should now base those squadrons which operated obsolescent aircraft and will be replaced by the MMRCA more to the north and east.



dont mind the unnamed sources dude...they want their 15 minutes in the media....

as i said if at all any of the mrca squadron is based on the western theatre..it will one or two squadrons operating out of any afs in jammu kashmir for keeping an eye on the leh sector...

this is not to say that rafale will not be used in combat against pakistan..that depends on the op scenario...im just talking about the initial stationing...


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## Jason bourne

indianspetsnaz said:


> which Rafale variant will India get?



all i think..


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## SQ8

FOLKS.. please post all news on the MMRCA program HERE. And tell others to do so as well.
Unless its a really important subject such as the signing of the deal with MoD.. do not post it on a new thread.
It helps keep the section less cluttered and also allows people to search for news and information more easily.

Thanks

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## SQ8

jha said:


> Someone in BRF is saying that 65-70 Gripens with Full TOT are being procured in addition to these 126 Rafales...



Someone in BRF is probably high.
Its understandable that India has money, but I know this for a fact that Indians arent wasteful.(anymore)
Why would the IAF want to buy another fighter with capabilities that the LCAmk2 is supposed to partially mirror anyway.
Why would the IAF want to add more headaches to logistics when clearly its focus seems to be on increasing commonality and reducing the types it wants to operate?.



Kazhugu said:


> dont mind the unnamed sources dude...they want their 15 minutes in the media....
> 
> as i said if at all any of the mrca squadron is based on the western theatre..it will one or two squadrons operating out of any afs in jammu kashmir for keeping an eye on the leh sector...
> 
> this is not to say that rafale will not be used in combat against pakistan..that depends on the op scenario...im just talking about the initial stationing...



Well that is surprising thing. I do not object to the Rafale's usage against Pakistan. What I object to is the immedieate focus of it.Pakistan does not represent a credible threat to India anymore, China does. Even now India is lacking in the northeast sector and that is where I believe the Rafale should go.
That does not mean some Rafale sq not be based on the western front or on more developed bases in the west for training and general rotation.

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## ARCHON

Oscar said:


> Someone in BRF is probably high.
> Its understandable that India has money, but I know this for a fact that Indians arent wasteful.(anymore)
> Why would the IAF want to buy another fighter with capabilities that the LCAmk2 is supposed to partially mirror anyway.
> Why would the IAF want to add more headaches to logistics when clearly its focus seems to be on increasing commonality and reducing the types it wants to operate?.
> 
> 
> 
> Well that is surprising thing. I do not object to the Rafale's usage against Pakistan. What I object to is the immedieate focus of it.Pakistan does not represent a credible threat to India anymore, China does. Even now India is lacking in the northeast sector and that is where I believe the Rafale should go.
> That does not mean some Rafale sq not be based on the western front or on more developed bases in the west for training and general rotation.




Mig-21, Mig-27, Jaguar, Mirage in future replacement by Rafale and Gripen means 4 replaced by 2. 

Mirage and Rafale logistics have commanality hence its 4 replaced by 1


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## jha

Oscar said:


> Someone in BRF is probably high.
> Its understandable that India has money, but I know this for a fact that Indians arent wasteful.(anymore)
> Why would the IAF want to buy another fighter with capabilities that the LCAmk2 is supposed to partially mirror anyway.
> Why would the IAF want to add more headaches to logistics when clearly its focus seems to be on increasing commonality and reducing the types it wants to operate?.



Yes...
There are many people who claim to have inside sources in MoD...


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## SQ8

ARCHON said:


> Mig-21, Mig-27, Jaguar, Mirage in future replacement by Rafale and Gripen means 4 replaced by 2.
> 
> Mirage and Rafale logistics have commanality hence its 4 replaced by 1


 


jha said:


> Yes...
> There are many people who claim to have *inside sources* in MoD...



As there are here.. but if there is such a decision. I would be surprised.
Since it makes no sense. Buying the Gripen is overlapping capability and burdening logistics for *NO* significant gain. If they want to buy the Gripen.. scrap the Tejas... why bother with it?


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## hembo

Oscar said:


> Someone in BRF is probably high.
> Its understandable that India has money, but I know this for a fact that Indians arent wasteful.(anymore)
> Why would the IAF want to buy another fighter with capabilities that the LCAmk2 is supposed to partially mirror anyway.
> Why would the IAF want to add more headaches to logistics when clearly its focus seems to be on increasing commonality and reducing the types it wants to operate?.
> 
> Well that is surprising thing. I do not object to the Rafale's usage against Pakistan. What I object to is the immedieate focus of it.Pakistan does not represent a credible threat to India anymore, China does. Even now India is lacking in the northeast sector and that is where I believe the Rafale should go.
> That does not mean some Rafale sq not be based on the western front or on more developed bases in the west for training and general rotation.



Could not agree any more...


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## Kazhugu

ARCHON said:


> Mig-21, Mig-27, Jaguar, Mirage in future replacement by Rafale and Gripen means 4 replaced by 2.
> 
> Mirage and Rafale logistics have commanality hence its 4 replaced by 1



Mirage will be in service for the next 15 years at the minimum...gripen makes no friggin sense...


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## SpArK

*Alrighty ...............So the Raffy has finally won as I predicted, I feel sorry for all the ones i have debated and fought with in this thread and other ones regarding how Raffy will finally make it, Some even called me a Raffy agent.. lol.*






Been going through various threads and was enjoying the thread of _Raffy purchases and neighborhood issues_. Well all i can read was people claiming we have seen it touch it flew it so no problemo.. Well IAF has been studying all the technicals of these 6 aircrafts for quite some time and the technical report they made will take almost a life time to read . They have conducted low, high, wet dry, snowy trials and evaluated the fighters to the core. The obvious choice was Raffy for its ability to destroy any gorund based threats better than any fighter that's readily available in world market.

Well all i can say is 






The DDM NG and Spectra are class apart and any guys researching on these things surely knows these.

Raffy will grow with the associations and both the countries can now look into and research more on taking it to the next level.

I am also excited on the prospect of Stealth UCAV association it can bring with the commonality between nEUROn and AuRa.


Also interesting is the possibility of Gripen coming to the ranks which is of an uncertainity but a good prospect in long run since it will bring the time for squadron expectations much further down and we all know they have plans to completly shift their production facility to India and a JV with TATA group regarding designing and manufacturing next generation fighter. They have also association with HAL and has been offering state of art defence systems for some time.



*I as always cracked up the news* early of the win first in various forums but unfortunatly was on a rare pink here in pdf. and missed all the fun here.. but didnt matter cause i been busy lately in the other places where they "discuss" , not post garbage and badmouth each others.

And a special thanks to Sancho for reminding me amidst the fireworks.

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## Bl[i]tZ

SpArK, did you mean BR?

---------- Post added at 01:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:24 PM ----------



















> images of the Rafale's HUD show what the *terrain following and avoidance modes will look like for the pilot on the HUD*..


 Courtesy - User Kartik on BRF (This is copied without permission. I apologize in advance.  )

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## SQ8

Lets put it to places that do not badmouth India and Hindus(whilst ironically celebrating India's secularism)
However it is perfectly okay for those places to badmouth Pakistan and Muslims.


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## SpArK




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## Bl[i]tZ

Oscar said:


> Lets put it to places that do not badmouth India and Hindus(whilst ironically celebrating India's secularism)
> However it is perfectly okay for those places to badmouth Pakistan and Muslims.



Except a few like Imran Khan and others, majority of Pakistanis or their diaspora on this forum are anti-hindu/christian/jew as well. There, they ridicule Pakistan and its identity not Muslims per se. Now, don't ban me for replying to your post. 

I've practiced self-restraint in my post.


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## Black Widow

ARCHON said:


> Mig-21, Mig-27, Jaguar, Mirage in future replacement by Rafale and Gripen means 4 replaced by 2.
> Mirage and Rafale logistics have commanality hence its 4 replaced by 1



Correct. But there is some change in plan. MiG21 will be replace by LCA. 

MiG21 Total 152: Will be replace by LCA. by 2013-14 almost 40 LCA MK1 will be delivered to IAF. 2014 MKII start production. By 
2017 (Which is MiG21 retirement timeline) 60 more LCA will be delivered. 

MiG27 and Jaguar will be completely replaced by MMRCA Rafael.

M2000H will replace in phase. I think M2000H gonna stay longer (along with Rafael) after current upgrades.


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## Archie

Black Widow said:


> Correct. But there is some change in plan. MiG21 will be replace by LCA.
> 
> MiG21 Total 152: Will be replace by LCA. by 2013-14 almost 40 LCA MK1 will be delivered to IAF. 2014 MKII start production. By
> 2017 (Which is MiG21 retirement timeline) 60 more LCA will be delivered.
> 
> MiG27 and Jaguar will be completely replaced by MMRCA Rafael.
> 
> 
> M2000H will replace in phase. I think M2000H gonna stay longer (along with Rafael) after current upgrades.




Well actually you are pretty much on the spot
Except a few things 
While we do have 152 Mig21Bis/Bisons in service , but out of these 2 Sqds ie 32 aircrafts will be replaced by Su30MKI , and remaining 6 Sqds ie 120 Aircrafts will be replaced by inducting 40 LCA MK1 and 83 LCA MK2 , But all this will take time , INFACT WE CAN ONLY COUNT 40 LCA MK1 till 2016 , there after 83 LCA MK2 will be delivered between 2017-22 
While all Mig21s Would be retired by 2017 , Hence we will have to assume that out of 8 Mig21 sqds , 5 would have to be replaced by MKI , With the 14th MKI sqd actually replacing the first Mig27 Sqd 

While Rafale will replace 4 Mig27 sqds and 3 Jaguar sqds , 

In the end Last 3 LCA MK2 Sqds will just help to increase the number of Fighter sqds from 33 to 36, Coz the aircraft which it meant to replace would have been retired before they enter service

Infact we can look at the following fleet in 2022

126 RAFALES - 7 Sqds 
269 Su30MKI - 14 Sqds
123 LCAMK1/2 - 6 Sqds 
72 Jaguars - 3 Sqds + Trainers
50 Mirage 2000V5 - 3 Sqds
60 Mig29SMT - 3 Sqds
30 FGFA - 1.5 Sqds

Ie 730 Fighters in 37.5 Sqds 

Also Note Any follow on order for 80 Rafales or any other fighters will replace Remaining Jaguars and 1 sqd of Mirages

While 4th , 5th and 6th FGFA Sqds will replace Mig29SMT

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## nomi007

yar aj kal t indians k mind main rafael sawar hai
itni attension rtejas ko dete to $11 billion save ho jate

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## Indus Falcon

Shaurya said:


> Funniest thing eva  so you mean just because gorkhas (I love them) serve in the Indian army, we would prefer nepal even if they are not economically powerful?? lol, we all can see who is the stupid here...



We were talking about Pakistans access to GCC hardware, and knowing it's intricacies, but you had to bring in a moot point and derail the conversation didn't you?


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## Indus Falcon

nomi007 said:


> yar aj kal t indians k mind main rafael sawar hai
> itni attension rtejas ko dete to $11 billion save ho jate



Yeah hawaon main jo orrh rahe hain, dharam say zameen pay giraengay, agar yeah khali emirati RFP dekhlaien!!


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## Bl[i]tZ

nomi007 said:


> yar aj kal t indians k mind main rafael sawar hai
> itni attension rtejas ko dete to $11 billion save ho jate



Tejas is definitely going to come (full scale production in 2014) and replace the Mig21s as the single engine interceptor and will have way better avionics, airframe and multirole capabilities. Rafale is higher end (4.5++) - it is omnirole (even though the requirement for MMRCA was only multirole) and the tech received from the french under ToT contracts might go into AMCA.


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## Capt.Popeye

Oscar said:


> As there are here.. but if there is such a decision. I would be surprised.
> Since it makes no sense. Buying the Gripen is overlapping capability and burdening logistics for *NO* significant gain. If they want to buy the Gripen.. scrap the Tejas... why bother with it?



Gripen is not on the cards at all!!! Never mind what anybody (with any self-professed) connections to MoD in GoI claims. While the Gripen has its own merits as an aircraft, it has some serious down sides as well. Then there is the Tejas factor that you correctly mention. At the most, the Gripen may serve as the template for upgrades to Tejas.

But Gripen is unequivocally out of IAF reckoning.

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## Indus Falcon

Bl[i]tZ;2568725 said:


> Tejas is definitely going to come (full scale production in 2014) and replace the Mig21s as the single engine interceptor and will have way better avionics, airframe and multirole capabilities. Rafale is higher end (4.5++) - it is *omnirole *(even though the requirement for MMRCA was only *multirole*) and the tech received from the french under ToT contracts might go into AMCA.



Whats the differnce between "Omnirole" and "Multirole" ???


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## sudhir007




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## Bl[i]tZ

Abu Nasar said:


> Whats the differnce between "Omnirole" and "Multirole" ???


Here


> Dassault describes its Rafale as being an "omnirole" fighter, a tag that it says denotes the type's ability to perform multiple mission types *simultaneously*. This differs from the widely adopted multi-role description used by its rivals largely as a result of the aircraft's ability to provide its pilot with data fused from onboard sensors, it says. These range from its Thales RBE2 fire-control radar, Spectra electronic warfare suite and passive front sector optronics equipment to the seekers on its MBDA Mica air-to-air missiles.
> 
> "The intention from the beginning was to develop a joint and omnirole Rafale," says Stéphane Reb, programme manager for France's DGA defence procurement agency.
> 
> "It was *intended to perform air-to-air missions, deterrence, air-to-ground and reconnaissance* simultaneously," adds Reb.
> 
> This vision was realised in July 2008, with the introduction to service of the current F3 production-standard aircraft, the broad c


apabilities of which have been showcased during the Libyan campaign since hostilities commenced in mid-March.
France's Rafale fighter proves its 'omnirole' skills


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## sancho

*Cross posting from the MP forum, credits to Olybrius*

Some French sources are reporting interesting, but unconfirmed things:



> *India: the Rafale was 15 to 20% cheaper than the Eurofighter*
> 
> Reportedly, the price offered by the Rafale (Dassault, Thales and Snecma) for 126 combat aircraft was less than 15 to 20% at the price offered by its competitor, the Eurofighter Typhoon, proposed by the United Kingdom, Germany, Italy and Spain. The price - both cost and usage - is therefore one of the main reasons for choosing India to open négocations exclusive with France...



Google Übersetzer




> Air@Cosmos 2298, Feb 3, page 11:
> 
> Rafale for India might be (unexhaustive list) :
> F30-4T with
> - RBE2 AESA
> - DDM NG
> - MICA
> - METEOR
> - M88-4E (no decision made about Kaveri)
> - AASM
> - AM39 Block 2 Mod 2
> - Scalp EG
> - RECO NG
> - Damocles or Litening
> - Divy Drishti (Samtel Thales Topsight HMD)
> - anti radar missile



As mentioned, bot reports are unconfirmed or backed up by propper sources, personally I have some doubt about the huge price difference in India at least as well as the requirement of ARMs, since no official IAF or MoD source talked about it.
If the report is correct though, we know that Raytheon had offered HARM (which still needs US government approval), otherwise I see only MAR 1 as a possible missile that could be integrated, but that would be interesting since PAF has bought it too. If Brazil selects Rafale, this missile will be integrated for sure and would be an easy solution for India, wonder if that was part of the talks of Brazilian defence minister and Indian officials?

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## Indus Falcon

Bl[i]tZ;2568789 said:


> Here
> apabilities of which have been showcased during the Libyan campaign since hostilities commenced in mid-March.
> France's Rafale fighter proves its 'omnirole' skills



Omnirole = Multirole, its the same thing. English is NOT your forte, is it?

Secondly, despite what Dassault and others wish to claim, the Libyan campaign did not prove anything! IF fighting against an obsolete, 20+ year old, air defense system is what you would call *proving* then that's nothing short of a joke. 

It' a good aircraft, with a lot of decent capabilities, don't undermine it by bringing the Libyan tragedy into it. Personally I'm very happy that you chose the Rafale rather than the EF. You guy deserve every thing you are going to get with it!


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## sancho

Another report with some interesting infos about the shortlisting:



> *An Insight Into Why the IAF Picked the Rafale*
> 
> Air Cmde Parvez Khokhar (Retd.), a former IAF test pilot, provides an insight into why the Rafale was the logical option as IAF's MMRCA...
> 
> I was the first pilot from the IAF to fly the Rafale in 2003. Having flown a number of the other competitors for the MMRCA deal, I can state with absolute conviction, that the IAF evaluation team has done a thoroughly professional job, which we should all be proud of.
> 
> I accompanied them for one of the evaluations. The short-listing of the EFA and Rafale also make total sense, since ether one of these ac would have added value to the IAF. Lets study the alternatives.
> 
> *Unless we had a Single Engine fighter which we found suitable*, shortlisting a SE with a twin engine would not require a rocket scientist to guess who the winner would have been.
> 
> *The F-18 and the MiG-35, did not meet a large number of our QRs*...



An Insight Into Why the IAF Picked the Rafale

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## sancho

Abu Nasar said:


> Omnirole = Multirole, its the same thing.



Not exactly! Omnirole is a term by Dassault and describes that the fighter has not only the capability to switch in A2A and A2G roles, but that it was designed and developed to offer a balanced performance in all roles.
The EF for example is a multi role fighter, with the prime focus on A2A and additional A2G capabilities, the F18SH is the exact opposite, since it was designed and developed for strikes primarily, with additional A2A capabilities. Rafale fits perfectly inbetween of them, because it offers the high maneuverability, the low detectability and even SC features by design, while it still offers long range, high payload and very good low level / low speed capabilties.

So Omnirole = balanced multi role capability by design!

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## Indus Falcon

sancho said:


> Not exactly! Omnirole is a term by Dassault and describes that the fighter has not only the capability to switch in A2A and A2G roles, but that it was designed and developed to offer a balanced performance in all roles.
> The EF for example is a multi role fighter, with the prime focus on A2A and additional A2G capabilities, the F18SH is the exact opposite, since it was designed and developed for strikes primarily, with additional A2A capabilities. Rafale fits perfectly inbetween of them, because it offers the high maneuverability, the low detectability and even SC features by design, while it still offers long range, high payload and very good low level / low speed capabilties.
> 
> So Omnirole = balanced multi role capability by design!



You've never flown a fighter aircraft, have you?


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## sancho

Bl[i]tZ;2568482 said:


> images of the Rafale's HUD show what the terrain following and avoidance modes will look like for the pilot on the HUD..



Those are not images of the Rafale's HUD show what the terrain following and avoidance modes, but images of a new digital color HUD prototype showed at the Paris air show last year:



> *Le Bourget 2011, digital color HUD for the Rafale*
> 
> The French DGA is developping a digital color Head Up Display for the Rafale. This would be the first color HUD in the world in a fighter jet.
> "Until now all combat aircraft had an analog HUD that was able to display gemometric forms in 2 dimensions only with a single green font"
> 
> According to Guillaume Grasset (DGA Rafale simulation trial engineer), this new digital HUD will offer a 3D display of the ground with important items like obstacles or the runway for example assuring a safety flight by night and bad visibility.
> 
> The higher resolution of this new HUD allow to display perfect geometric forms (variable line thickness and brightness) and several different font in different colors (green and red for the current prototype) in order to match the other displays color code used in the aircraft (red for high priority threats for example)



Rafale News: Le Bourget 2011, digital color HUD for the Rafale


Check the video also:



> *Le Bourget 2011, color HUD video*



Rafale News: Le Bourget 2011, color HUD video


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## Raje amar

golmaal said:


> *Britain, a key arms supplier to India, cannot believe that it lost out to France.*
> 
> February 5, 2012:
> Last year, a group of Indian journalists were taken on a tour of BAE System's Warton Aerodrome on Britain's northwest coast, where Eurofighter Typhoons for British and Saudi contracts were being assembled.
> 
> We watched a Typhoon swoop above, tried on and played around with the jet's pilot helmet, a Darth Vaderesque object with an optical tracking system fitted inside, and generally had as much of an adventure park-like experience that one could have at an aerodrome assembling war planes.
> 
> Everyone, of course, avoided being drawn into a discussion of the four-nation Eurofighter consortium's prospects for winning the $10-billion bid for 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) but there was certainly an air of cautious optimism.
> 
> Unsurprisingly, perhaps. *With the exception of Russia, no other country has had as lucrative a trade with India when it comes to arms as Britain has.*
> 
> *Between 1950 and 2010, India has imported $15.3 billion worth of arms from Britain, against $4 billion from France and $1.8 billion from Germany,* according to data from the Swedish International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI).
> 
> It is a dominance that has continued into the current decade: In the decade till 2010, British arms exports to India totalled $859 million, more than the total for Germany ($414 million) and France ($432 million) combined.
> 
> Britain's consistent position as second-to-Russia when it came to Indian arms imports has bucked the direction of their bilateral trade relationship, which has seen Britain slip behind other European nations in relative terms. And globally the Indian arms market matters more than any: between 2006 and 2010, it was the largest arms importer in the world, accounting for an impressive 9 per cent of international arms transfer volumes, according to SIPRI data.
> 
> FRANCE'S STEADY PRESENCE
> 
> France has been a steady presence in that market since the 1950s, and Germany since the 1960s  but failed to take over from Britain.
> 
> While France has established itself across platforms  from the Mirage to submarines  Germany, the third largest exporter of arms in the world, has failed to establish a major presence beyond engine systems in the Indian market, often because of the costliness of its product, says Siemon Wezeman, senior researcher at SIPRI.
> 
> The Indian market has also consistently remained a European battleground, unlike other Asian markets (US arms exports to Japan totalled $57 billion between 1950 and 2010 against $1.4 billion from Britain and $442 million from Germany).
> 
> Excluding Russia, India's four largest sources of arms are European (Switzerland and the Netherlands are both ahead of Israel, with the US never taking off as a major supplier, partly because of its relationship with Pakistan and partly for limited willingness to transfer technology and stringent conditions such as weapons inspections).
> 
> AGGRESSIVE UK CAMPAIGN
> 
> Though the Eurofighter bid was led by Germany's Cassidian, there was aggressive campaigning by Britain  not least during the Prime Minister, Mr David Cameron's visit to India in 2010 shortly after the British general election, during which a £500-million contract between BAE Systems and Hindustan Electronics for Hawk training jets was signed.
> 
> During a visit to India last year, Britain's development minister, Mr Andrew Mitchell, linked the strategic aim of the nation's decision to maintain £1.2 billion of aid to India  while scrapping it for many other countries  to trade and even directly to the Eurofighter campaign. The focus is also about seeking to sell Typhoon, he said, according to Britain's The Independent newspaper at the time.
> 
> In Germany, the reaction to the news that Dassault Aviation had emerged as the lowest, and therefore preferred bidder for the MMRCA contract was relatively muted, with criticism more focused on the limited role that the Chancellor, Ms Angela Merkel, played in the campaign, compared with the involvement of the French President, Mr Nicholas Sarkozy on Dassault's behalf.
> 
> By contrast, in Britain, it has been vitriolic at points, making clear the presumptiveness that prevailed in some quarters, despite the fact that it had been clear that having tested all the first-round contenders against 660 different criteria, the final round was all about costs. Well, that's gratitude, The Daily Mail newspaper  reportedly the most read newspaper web site in the world  declared furiously.
> 
> We give India £1 billion in aid, THEY snub the UK and give France a £13-billion jet contract! Some Conservative MPs called on the government to revisit the decision on aid.
> 
> Mr Cameron, steering clear of any retaliatory rhetoric, vowed to do all he could to persuade India to revisit the decision  though whether he will do so at a potential cost to diplomatic relations is another matter altogether, say some observers.
> 
> BOOST FOR SARKOZY
> 
> That a country that exited the Eurofighter project  originally initiated in the 1970s as a cost-sharing project across European nations  had beaten the consortium on the complex cost calculations, including life cycle costs and technology transfer, was bad enough.
> 
> Let alone a company that is yet to sell a single Rafale outside France, despite coming close to deals in the UAE, Brazil, Libya, Switzerland and South Korea. (At one point a French minister warned that the project would have to be scrapped if no sales were agreed soon).
> 
> That it was a French victory, so soon after India had opted for a $2.5-billion upgrade of its Mirage 2000s grated even more in Britain, given the sparring between the leaders of the two nations in the past few months.
> 
> Mr Sarkozy has made no secret of his contempt for Mr Cameron's criticism of Euro Zone nations  at one point telling him to join the euro or shut up'. *Just the day before the contract was announced Mr Sarkozy declared Britain had no industry left', a comment that wouldn't have rankled so much if there weren't elements of truth to it.*
> 
> The MMRCA contact is a boost for Mr Sarkozy so close to the May Presidential elections, with the potential impact  should the contract be signed  set to be felt beyond just Dassault Aviation itself (Thales will supply information systems and Safran the twin M88 engines).
> 
> Dogfight' was the way Ashley J. Tellis of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace characterised the global battle to win the MMRCA contract in a report last year, even before the initial shortlist was drawn up.
> 
> It has proved an accurate description: with the first round of short-listing last year being seen inaccurately by some of a rebuffing of a closer strategic relationship with the US, rather than the reality, which was a reflection of the military's technological needs and a willingness by the bidders to share technology.
> 
> Last week's decision is likely to face the same sort of pressure.
> 
> It is up to the government to combat that pressure, through transparency about how it arrived at the cost ranking, and to show that it is capable of having a relationship with diverse partners, based on a strict set of criteria, and that it is a relationship that no nation can take for granted.
> 
> Business Line : Opinion / Columns : Rafale win leaves UK smarting



good article

definately no one can take India for granted. its pure business, and we are nobodys lapdog.

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## sancho

Oscar said:


> This is why I put the question forward.
> While I know that its more of a fleet upgrade program.. the IAF should now base those squadrons which operated obsolescent aircraft and will be replaced by the MMRCA more to the north and east.



My friend, you already know the answer, but it seems you let yourself influence too much by hype of what PAFs reaction to this selection might be. Btw, it was kind of interesting to see, that when the news about Rafales selection came up, only Pakistani members started a thread about this issue and directly related MMRCA to Pakistan, while Chinese members hardly bothered with it in the Chinese section and that although "all Indian officials" constantly said, that MMRCAs will mainly be fielded towards Chinese borders.
Don't take it as an offence please, but it's not the duty of Indians to convince Pakistanis, that things have changed (quiet some time ago) and that China is now "openly" considered as the main threat to Indias security. It's the duty of reasonable people like you, to make other Pakistanis understand, that not everything India does, has to do with Pakistan, otherwise this mistrust will never end!

Now to the quote you were refering too and let us think about this logically and not get into conclusions so fast. The article said:



> first Ambala and then Jodhpur, followed by Hashimara in the eastern sector against China, say sources.



A simple google search tells us, that Ambala belongs to IAFs Western Air Command, Jodhpur to South Western and Hashimara to Eastern.
That means, that from the first 3 Rafale squads, 1 will be placed towards the western borders, 1 towards the northern and 1 towards the eastern! That alone shows, that it's just a normal placement routine and since each command gets one squad, you can't talk about a focus at all!

But there is more that we easily can find out today. You have forgotten that the prime aim of MRCA / MMRCA was, replacing old Mig 21! 
So when you do another google search to find out which fighters are placed in Ambala and Jodhpur, you will find squadron no 3 (the first squadron that was upgraded to Bison standard in 2002) and squadron no 32 (another Mig 21 Bison squadron) for example.
That means when the aim is to replace Mig 21 Bisons, you logically start with the oldest isn't it? The 3rd squad got the Mig 21 Bis in 1980 which means, in 2015 when the first Rafales might arrive in Ambala, these Migs will be 35 years old! 

Does it still look like a focus on Pakistan, or is it a normal procedure in fleet upgrade program?

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## sancho

Abu Nasar said:


> You've never flown a fighter aircraft, have you?



No, but I can read if that counts :



> Omnirole by design



Omnirole by design

They changed balanced multi role completely with omnirole during the update of the side, but I explained this before too:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/4347-mrca-news-discussions-367.html#post2095759


----------



## Aamna Ali

Why India chose Rafale

Washington, Feb. 5: When Pratibha Patil travelled to Europe last October, she and others in her entourage had a pleasant surprise in the sky. *At one point along the air space that the Presidents flight was using, half a squadron of Eurofighters appeared on both sides of her Air India plane.*

In the graceful style of these sleek war machines, they escorted the presidential aircraft to its safe landing at Patils next destination. Even so, those manning the Eurofighters could not resist showing off.

When the Eurofighters displayed the prowess of this advanced new-generation, multi-role combat aircraft to the President, members of Parliament and senior officials accompanying her, New Delhis quest for 126 planes of its kind could not have been far from the minds of their pilots.

The competition for the biggest military aviation deal in history, which began 11 years ago when the defence ministry initiated its request for information or RFI, had just entered its final and decisive phase.

*But the impromptu decision to send the Eurofighters across European skies to impress the President was typical of what cost some rivals of Dassault Aviation  last weeks winners  the lucrative Indian Air Force contract.*

It was somewhat reminiscent of Henry Kissingers disastrous invitation to defence minister Jagjivan Ram to visit Washington in 1971 as the sub-continent was heading into war, as recounted by Rukmini Menon, who was then joint secretary for the US in South Block.

Why should I visit Washington? Ram asked a non-plussed Kissinger and proceeded to tell him how American arms supplies had emboldened Pakistan to ruthlessly suppress East Pakistanis.

Partly, it was a similar approach that resulted in Boeings F-18E and Lockheed Martins F-16E being turfed out of the competition for the IAF deal earlier in the race. Not solely with the multi-role combat aircraft deal in mind, the Obama administration had made too much noise bereft of substance about the first state visit of his administration and Barack Obamas first state dinner in honour of Prime Minister Manmohan Singh.

There was a time when Indias rulers could solely be influenced by gimmicks. But theatrics and atmospherics can no longer substitute hard policy options. *This is one lesson New Delhi has hopefully absorbed firsthand from intense, albeit under the radar interaction with Israelis  especially in defence matters  in the last 20 years.*

Then there was A.K. Antony, whom the losers in the bid for the IAF deal had not reckoned with. Antony, by nature, is averse to being the public face of decision-making. This has been the case throughout his tenure as defence minister, especially during scandals such as the Adarsh housing scam that rocked the army. Each time it was clear that the defence minister had made up his mind, but the decisions were put out as if they were taken elsewhere, along the proper channel.

Such an approach came through clearly in his most detailed statement on January 31 on the controversy about the army chiefs age. Ending months of virtual silence in the matter, Antony blamed the army for sitting on the problem for 36 years and then dealing with it in its own wisdom. So much so the army chief Gen. V.K. Singh had to agree with the minister.

Antony has maintained in public throughout that the multi-role combat aircraft acquisition process is a technical matter that would be decided by professionals in uniform. But such a public position overlooks the reality that Antonys core support team in his ministry is much more ideological than in any other wing of the present government. Like civil servants, men in uniform are not immune from ministerial winds blowing in a particular direction.

Ideological considerations have prevented Antony from visiting Israel and from signing at least three defence agreements with the Americans which his core team views as compromising Indias strategic autonomy.

If the Russian plane on offer, MiG-35, had not clearly failed the tests, it was conceivable that it would very much have been in the reckoning. With the Russians out of the way, it did weigh with the political leadership in the defence ministry that France favours a multi-polar world and that India is a beneficiary of such an approach.

*France won the bid for the entire order because it supplemented the requirements of the global tender with sweeteners that in the real world of strategic engagement, only three countries can offer India: Russia and Israel, in addition to France itself.*

The collaborations that France has offered India in recent years in the field of intelligence sharing and upgrade are without parallel. Naturally, this is an area where co-operation cannot be publicised by the very nature of such engagement.

India and France face somewhat similar threats of domestic terrorism, vastly different from the threats faced by the US, Russia or even Israel. *The assistance that Paris has offered New Delhi in preparing the country against such threats and the constant upgrading of their assistance went a long way towards creating an environment that favoured the French on the aircraft deal.*

*It was in direct contrast to Washingtons approach: the bulk of Indias intelligence community and key bureaucrats at decision-making levels believe that the Americans two-timed New Delhi on David Coleman Headley, their double agent in Chicago who played a major role in the Pakistan-supported terrorist attack on Mumbai in 2008.*

In addition, spread across Indias entire political spectrum that includes much of the Opposition, is a firm conviction that India would not have come out unscathed from the decision to conduct the 1998 nuclear tests if it were not for the steadfast backing that President Jacques Chirac  and Nicolas Sarkozy after him  offered India in an hour of great need.

*It is not widely known that during the Kargil war in 1999, the French approved with lightning speed the adaptation of Indian Air Force Mirages in tandem with equally speedy Israeli supplies of laser-guided bombs which they delivered in Srinagar*: without such French and Israeli support, India could have lost Kargil to Pervez Musharrafs perfidy.

*No honourable Indian in uniform can forget that in such a situation, the US or Britain would have probably suspended all military supplies to the combatants to prove their bona fides as honest brokers for peace.*

Policies may be the result of collective decision-making in governments, but within that framework, individuals do matter. One such individual who has left a mark on Franco-Indian relations is Jean-David Levitte, whose critical role in securing the Rafale deal for his country will never become a matter of public record because of the nature of his job.

Levitte is diplomatic adviser and Sherpa to Sarkozy, who made amends for the temperamental mistakes during his Presidents first visit to India as chief guest during Republic Day celebrations in New Delhi and organised a second trip that turned out to be one of most productive and substantive visits by any head of state to India.

Levitte was senior diplomatic adviser to Chirac too when Brajesh Mishra, the then principal secretary to Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee, flew to Paris as his first stop abroad seeking diplomatic support after the Pokhran II nuclear tests. Mishra found such support in Paris before he extracted reluctant support from Moscow.

Soon afterwards, Levitte became French permanent representative to the UN in New York where he led, along with Russia, a split among the five permanent members of the Security Council on the issue of punishing India through sanctions on the nuclear issue. Later he was ambassador in Washington.

*Two of the countries which have been after the multi-role combat aircraft deal, the US and Britain, were at that time in the forefront of efforts in the Security Council to choke India into submission and roll back its nuclear programme.*

*Within the political and civilian leadership of Indias defence establishment, there has been no doubt that other things being equal, India should reward a friend in need, in this case, France.*

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## anathema

*Unveling Rafale India's Website !*

Home

The site also has some great videos !

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## ptltejas

anathema said:


> *Unveling Rafale India's Website !*
> 
> Home
> 
> The site also has some great videos !


 
Thanks for a good link and info


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## hembo

sancho said:


> No, but I can read if that counts :
> 
> 
> 
> Omnirole by design
> 
> They changed balanced multi role completely with omnirole during the update of the side, but I explained this before too:
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/4347-mrca-news-discussions-367.html#post2095759


 
I think we need to refer him to Dare2 from IDF..

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## sancho

anathema said:


> *Unveling Rafale India's Website !*
> 
> Home
> 
> The site also has some great videos !




Finally!

Check out this video:

[video]<object classid="clsid27CDB6E-AE6D-11cf-96B8-444553540000" width="1024" height="768"><param name="movie" value="http://www.rafale.co.in/index.php?option=com_webplayer&view=player" /><param name="allowfullscreen" value="true" /><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always" /><param name="flashvars" value="baseJ=http://www.rafale.co.in/&type=youtube&video=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlvIbwQAhPw&streamer=0&preview=http://img.youtube.com/vi/YlvIbwQAhPw/0.jpg&" /><object type="application/x-shockwave-flash" data="http://www.rafale.co.in/index.php?option=com_webplayer&view=player" width="1024" height="768"><param name="movie" value="http://www.rafale.co.in/index.php?option=com_webplayer&view=player" /><param name="allowfullscreen" value="true" /><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always" /><param name="flashvars" value="baseJ=http://www.rafale.co.in/&type=youtube&video=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlvIbwQAhPw&streamer=0&preview=http://img.youtube.com/vi/YlvIbwQAhPw/0.jpg&" /><iframe title="YouTube video player" width="1024" height="768" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/YlvIbwQAhPw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe></object></object>[/video]

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## angeldemon_007

Hey sancho can we find the specification of the Rafale meant for India on this website ???? I f yes where ?


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## sancho

> *BAE signals willingness to drop Typhoon price*
> 
> ...When pressed on whether this would include reducing the price, Mr King confirmed that it was one of the options being considered....
> 
> ...However, analysts and industry executives said any technical advantage the Typhoon *might* enjoy over the Rafale was not enough to outweigh the difference in price plus any other sweeteners, *such as more generous technology transfer agreements, offered by France.
> *
> John Louth, analyst at the think tank, Royal United Services Institute, said that the companies&#8217; bid was too technical and lacked the grand military vision of that of the French: &#8220;It was a bit like bringing a knife to a gunfight.&#8221;
> 
> According to Douglas Barrie of the International Institute for Strategic Studies, *a key issue for buyers was whether the supplier would support it over the jet fighter&#8217;s 30-year life by offering technology upgrades and the latest weaponry*.



BAE signals willingness to drop Typhoon price - FT.com




angeldemon_007 said:


> Hey sancho can we find the specification of the Rafale meant for India on this website ???? I f yes where ?



Not yet, just general infos. Price negotiations will just start now and certain techs and capabilities might be added or removed. Air & Cosmos provided a list of possible techs and weapons for our Rafales. I posted them on the last page.

When we get a better picture what the Mirage 2000 upgrade will include, we might have a good idea about Rafale as well.


----------



## angeldemon_007

^^^
Yeah i am hearing its almost certain that atleast a couple of israeli components will be in indian version of Rafale especially the latest lightening G4 pod.


----------



## angeldemon_007

Hey can anyone answer this question...

Is M88-4E engine gonna be used on Indian Rafales ?


----------



## anathema

sancho said:


> Finally!
> 
> Check out this video:
> 
> [video]<object classid="clsid27CDB6E-AE6D-11cf-96B8-444553540000" width="1024" height="768"><param name="movie" value="http://www.rafale.co.in/index.php?option=com_webplayer&view=player" /><param name="allowfullscreen" value="true" /><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always" /><param name="flashvars" value="baseJ=http://www.rafale.co.in/&type=youtube&video=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlvIbwQAhPw&streamer=0&preview=http://img.youtube.com/vi/YlvIbwQAhPw/0.jpg&" /><object type="application/x-shockwave-flash" data="http://www.rafale.co.in/index.php?option=com_webplayer&view=player" width="1024" height="768"><param name="movie" value="http://www.rafale.co.in/index.php?option=com_webplayer&view=player" /><param name="allowfullscreen" value="true" /><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always" /><param name="flashvars" value="baseJ=http://www.rafale.co.in/&type=youtube&video=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlvIbwQAhPw&streamer=0&preview=http://img.youtube.com/vi/YlvIbwQAhPw/0.jpg&" /><iframe title="YouTube video player" width="1024" height="768" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/YlvIbwQAhPw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe></object></object>[/video]



Or this -- some good footage !!

[video]<object classid="clsid27CDB6E-AE6D-11cf-96B8-444553540000" width="615" height="360"><param name="movie" value="http://www.rafale.co.in/index.php?option=com_webplayer&view=player" /><param name="allowfullscreen" value="true" /><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always" /><param name="flashvars" value="baseJ=http://www.rafale.co.in/&type=youtube&video=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmflvqfKUTw&streamer=0&preview=http://img.youtube.com/vi/YmflvqfKUTw/0.jpg&" /><object type="application/x-shockwave-flash" data="http://www.rafale.co.in/index.php?option=com_webplayer&view=player" width="615" height="360"><param name="movie" value="http://www.rafale.co.in/index.php?option=com_webplayer&view=player" /><param name="allowfullscreen" value="true" /><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always" /><param name="flashvars" value="baseJ=http://www.rafale.co.in/&type=youtube&video=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmflvqfKUTw&streamer=0&preview=http://img.youtube.com/vi/YmflvqfKUTw/0.jpg&" /><iframe title="YouTube video player" width="615" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/YmflvqfKUTw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe></object></object>[/video]

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## peep

sancho said:


> BAE signals willingness to drop Typhoon price - FT.com
> 
> Not yet, just general infos. Price negotiations will just start now and certain techs and capabilities might be added or removed. Air & Cosmos provided a list of possible techs and weapons for our Rafales. I posted them on the last page.
> 
> When we get a better picture what the Mirage 2000 upgrade will include, we might have a good idea about Rafale as well.



How can a bidder just lower the price after bids have been opened and be in contention again ? or Is it to put pressure on Rafale to bow down of the process ?


----------



## Harry Potter

A dogfight over Delhi
February 6, 2012 7:59 pm

By James Lamont in New Delhi and James Boxell in Paris
A dogfight over Delhi

Defence and diplomacy: the French Rafale jet fighter (left) and the rival Eurofighter model (right)

Sir Stephen Dalton, the UK&#8217;s chief of air staff, hurtled down the runway behind the controls of a Russian-designed Sukhoi-30 at the Kalaikunda air base in West Bengal. The deafening roar of the engines of the mainstay of the Indian air force swept over a small band of observers gathered just over a year ago in the rising tropical heat.

Minutes later, a Royal Air Force Eurofighter Typhoon built by a British, German, Italian and Spanish consortium took to the skies as part of a staged dogfight with India&#8217;s French Mirages and Russian aircraft, designed to impress officials seeking to modernise an ageing fleet. Its near-vertical take-off was met with awed admiration.

Within the sights of Sir Stephen, a veteran of the first Gulf war &#8211; as well as his political masters and hundreds of aerospace executives &#8211; was one of the world&#8217;s most sought-after jet fighter contracts. London, Paris and Washington were all vying to re-equip the world&#8217;s largest democracy with 126 fighters &#8211; about one-10th of the force &#8211; seeing it as a chance to put a seal on a defining bilateral relationship of the 21st century.

Worth up to $20bn, the deal to supply India &#8211; with its fast-growing economy and geopolitical status, and concern about the threat from Pakistan to the north and China to the east &#8211; offered a European defence establishment suffering shrinking military budgets back home the chance to reshape the industry landscape.
More
On this story

Cameron to urge India to rethink jet decision
Lex French defence sector
India boost for Dassault as jet is frontrunner
In depth Defence in the downturn
India move offers lifeline for Rafale jet

But the mock battle was the closest the Typhoon came to the target. New Delhi last week chose Dassault&#8217;s Rafale over the Eurofighter at the end of an eight-year competition. The significance of the agreement is being compared to that of the UK&#8217;s record al-Yamama deal with Saudi Arabia, signed in the 1980s. Optimists say it could be signed within eight months, joining a $9.3bn agreement for France to supply India with two nuclear plants and another to build it a modern conventional submarine fleet worth $4bn.

&#8220;This is a major win for France, and a major loss for the UK ... French political backing has been essential in strengthening the French bid and the Rafale win is therefore also a major victory for President Nicolas Sarkozy,&#8221; says Endre Lunde, an aerospace and defence consultant at IHS Jane&#8217;s, a defence consultancy.

Rafale&#8217;s selection is a bitter disappointment for all four nations in the consortium, and highlights Indian doubts about a pan-European partnership at a time of financial and political strain on the continent.

It has a particular sting for David Cameron. The UK prime minister identified the Indian market as one of the most important for Britain&#8217;s exporters &#8211; but this opening gambit to his premiership has shown scant return even though accompanied by £1bn of aid in the next four years.

The decision also deals a blow to Mr Cameron&#8217;s attempt to style himself a champion of trade missions led by the private sector &#8211; unlike France&#8217;s dirigiste approach &#8211; and of Britain&#8217;s dwindling manufacturing base.

Eurofighter&#8217;s backers thought it the lead contender, bringing more advanced technology and strategic clout than the Rafale, which had not been sold outside France. Their confidence soared after US rivals &#8211; Boeing&#8217;s F/A-18 Super Hornet and Lockheed Martin&#8217;s F-16 Super Viper &#8211; were knocked out of the highly secretive medium multi-role combat aircraft contest last year.
Triumph of versatility on display in the skies over Libya

Within the UK defence industry the Indian fighter-jet tender was seen as Eurofighter&#8217;s to lose, writes Carola Hoyos. The Typhoon was seen as technologically superior, more thoroughly tested by several national air forces, and came with the political clout of four European governments &#8211; Germany, the UK, Italy and Spain.

But analysts who studied the relative technical abilities of the two jets were not so sure. &#8220;Any suggestion that Rafale is a poor cousin to Typhoon is an oversimplification,&#8221; says Douglas Barrie of the IISS, a London-based think-tank. &#8220;The gap between the two aircraft is not very big at all.&#8221;

Both jets were conceived in the early 1980s when the demand was for jet fighters that could, in true &#8220;Top Gun&#8221; style, shoot Soviet aircraft out of the sky. Since then &#8211; as shown in campaigns from Serbia to Iraq and Afghanistan &#8211; air-to-ground combat has become far more important. The question has been how quickly jets such as the Typhoon and Rafale could be turned into more versatile fighters.

The answer, say analysts, came in the Libyan conflict. The Rafale, which has a larger array of air-to-ground weapons, was able to strike moving targets on the ground and fight incoming fire. For all its nimbleness, the Typhoon could only drop larger weapons, creating more collateral damage.

Radar was another consideration. Neither Typhoon nor Rafale has the most modern system available, though both camps are working on it.

In fact, the only really advanced radar systems available are those made by the US. Analysts say that the fact India discarded a US option suggests the political willingness of a partner to supply future weapons and systems upgrades, regardless of politics, is of key importance. Similarly, industry experts say that the shortcomings of the Typhoon&#8217;s weapons systems exposed in Libya could be fixed &#8211; if the political will and funding is there.

The question within the Typhoon camp is whether there was anything other than a lower price that the French offered. That concern among senior members of the Eurofighter team was fuelled when &#8211; most unusually &#8211; New Delhi did not come back with technical follow-up questions to their offer. Others, however, say the Eurofighter team simply mishandled the bid, focusing too narrowly on technical details.

In London and Berlin, contractors salivated at the idea of harnessing via industrial partnership a greater share of India&#8217;s $36bn annual defence budget &#8211; one of the world&#8217;s largest, and probably a third of China&#8217;s. A big European purchase would shift India away from reliance on Russia and show the US was not the only alternative as Delhi sought to rearm itself in light of mounting concerns about a more assertive Beijing.

The executives of the consortium partners were convinced Eurofighter offered a superior so-called &#8220;4th generation&#8221; aircraft suited to aerial combat and able to strike targets on the ground. They were also confident they had priced it competitively, in spite of some analysts&#8217; claims that the Rafale was up to 10 per cent cheaper.

But they overlooked Indian misgivings about security of supply for an aircraft built by four countries across a continent in financial turmoil and amid worries about the aircraft&#8217;s radar capabilities. &#8220;The upside is that Eurofighter delivers you four countries as strategic partners,&#8221; says Douglas Barrie of the London-based International Institute for Strategic Studies, but &#8220;the down side is they have to negotiate with each other before they negotiate with you&#8221;.

. . .

They also underestimated the government-to-government nature of India&#8217;s arms dealings; its deep-seated fears over its energy vulnerabilities; and its hunt for a bargain. &#8220;Patience is a key aspect of doing business in India, as is price,&#8221; says Gunjan Bagla of California-based Amritt Inc, an advisory service. &#8220;The Indian approach is that so long as a product meets the minimum threshold of performance, then it seeks the best value for money. This should come as no surprise.&#8221;

Eurofighter executives want a &#8220;detailed explanation&#8221; from India&#8217;s Ministry of Defence of how calculations were made. They doubt that Dassault, which conducted its campaign from within the grey concrete walls of the French embassy, can deliver on its promises in terms of price and schedule.

Meantime, there is grim denial that the contest is over, and that India has overlooked a partnership that they say includes two of the more robust European economies, Germany and the UK, in favour of one with a country recently stripped of its triple A credit status. One veteran of the Eurofighter campaign vows not to give up until India makes the first downpayment to the French, which might not be for years, claiming that arms deals of this magnitude are in play &#8220;until money is in the bank&#8221;. BAE, one of the Eurofighter group partners, yesterday signalled that it was prepared to drop the price.

. . .

Delhi&#8217;s version of events is that, in an era of corruption scandals and an activist Supreme Court, it has played the selection process entirely by the book. Defence officials say that, once the two models passed technical trials, the deciding factor was always going to be which was offered at the lowest price. They say the choice of Rafale, which some say came in $5m cheaper per aircraft, was one of the cleanest decisions in India&#8217;s arms procurement history, with the minimum of political interference.

Defence experts, however, say other factors came into play in the form of investment agreements, whereby they were required to invest half the value of the contract back into India, and technology transfer. &#8220;The deal is beyond the aircraft,&#8221; says Uday Bhaskar, a Delhi-based defence analyst. &#8220;If I was in the shoes of France looking at India, I would go beyond the fighter to the next big-ticket items of civil nuclear power and the [nuclear] submarine arena.&#8221;

Bharat Karnad, a defence expert at the Centre for Policy Research in Delhi, says a likely bargaining chip was the prospect of the use of nuclear testing facilities in Bordeaux to shore up the thermonuclear shortcomings of India&#8217;s nuclear arsenal. Such collaboration would give them more confidence in their own deterrent in the long-running standoff with nuclear-armed Pakistan. &#8220;The Indian government can&#8217;t be blamed for misleading anyone. It was government-to-government from the very beginning.We wanted to know what things we would get with the fighter,&#8221; he says.

Competitors suspect the nuclear element played a part in the decision. &#8220;Dassault got very aggressive on price and then Sarkozy rounded out the deal at the very end, possibly with some side-deal involving nuclear energy,&#8221; one German official says.

Mr Sarkozy, months away from a presidential election that promises to be a bitter fight, and Dassault are quietly triumphant. He has underlined his determination by saying the final negotiations had &#8220;the full support of the French authorities&#8221; and would include technology transfers &#8220;guaranteed&#8221; by the state.

Two years ago, even sceptical senior Indian diplomats expressed pleasure at a visit by Mr Sarkozy that placed nuclear energy at the centre of French engagement. Mr Sarkozy appeared determined to leverage the loyalty Paris earned in 1998 by not showing opprobrium at Delhi&#8217;s nuclear tests, which circumvented the nuclear non-proliferation treaty.

More recently, stalled deals in Brazil and the United Arab Emirates had put Dassault under intense pressure to give the Indians an attractive price, particularly on the lifetime cost of supporting and upgrading the aircraft. Gérard Longuet, defence minister, threatened to end Rafale production unless a foreign sale was secured.

&#8220;Sarko is willing to give them whatever [technology] they want,&#8221; says a French defence industry executive. &#8220;It&#8217;s fair to say the technology has been around a while now so is not quite leading-edge. Remember we were talking about selling the Rafale to [Muammer] Gaddafi in Libya, so there are no qualms really.&#8221;

Internal critiques on how the deal was lost will almost certainly heap blame on Germany &#8211; and, in some quarters, deepen existing regret that the UK, India&#8217;s former colonial master, did not take the lead role in a more dynamic bid.

The German-led bid was excessively technical and lacked glossy display of what the Typhoon could do in conflicts, according to one critic. While Dassault's bid was captured in 20 pages, Eurofighter&#8217;s ran to 150.

&#8220;The German government was very German. It helped as best it thought it could,&#8221; explains one Berlin official. &#8220;But it was always trammelled by German public aversion to arms sales, and by the fact that it doesn&#8217;t pursue a statist industrial policy like Paris ... The fact that some countries do packages and the Germans don&#8217;t is a fact you have to accept.&#8221;

Yet the most outspoken criticism has come from analysts who believe that India should leap straight to 5th generation &#8220;stealth&#8221; fighters with Russian Pak-Fa and American F-35 and F-22 fighters.

&#8220;It&#8217;s a terrible deal,&#8221; says Ajai Shukla, defence columnist for India&#8217;s Business Standard newspaper and a fierce critic of India&#8217;s sluggish procurement processes.

&#8220;The air force has been tempted into buying an outdated fighter. We should be matching our capabilities against China. Our military advantage over China is our air power.&#8221;

Additional reporting by Gerrit Wiesmann and Carola Hoyo

A dogfight over Delhi - FT.com

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## sancho

angeldemon_007 said:


> ^^^
> Yeah i am hearing its almost certain that atleast a couple of israeli components will be in indian version of Rafale especially the latest lightening G4 pod.



Actually there are not much that it might get, other than Litening pod. The G4 also was co-developed by the US if I remember correctly, so would need US approval again.




angeldemon_007 said:


> Hey can anyone answer this question...
> 
> Is M88-4E engine gonna be used on Indian Rafales ?



It's the M88 2-E4, an upgraded version of the current M88-2. Similar thrust, but more cost-effective and with a longer life.




peep said:


> How can a bidder just lower the price after bids have been opened and be in contention again ? or Is it to put pressure on Rafale to bow down of the process ?



That's often the case in such competitions, Dassault is reported to do the same in Swiss currently, but in both cases the chances to change the decisions are low. In MMRCA maybe even lower with the behaviour of the British now!

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## sancho

> IDSA (Institute for Defence Studies and Analyses) COMMENT
> 
> *Rafale Wins the MMRCA Competition*
> 
> The French Dassault Rafale has reportedly won the coveted contract for 126 MMRCA on the basis of its price being lower than the Eurofighter Typhoon. It is still early days, however, as months of detailed negotiations would inevitably follow before such a complex and high priced contract is finally signed...



Rafale Wins the MMRCA Competition | Institute for Defence Studies and Analyses


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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> Actually there are not much that it might get, other than Litening pod. The G4 also was co-developed by the US if I remember correctly, so would need US approval again.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's the M88 2-E4, an upgraded version of the current M88-2. Similar thrust, but more cost-effective and with a longer life.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's often the case in such competitions, Dassault is reported to do the same in Swiss currently, but in both cases the chances to change the decisions are low. In MMRCA maybe even lower with the behaviour of the British now!




I believe the M88-3 (that produces 90KN of thrust) is the engine speculated to be on the IAF Rafales. The engine has already been tested so by the time IAF receives first deliveries in 2014-5 the engine should be more than ready to be installed. The IAF are looking for a highly customised " MKIsation " on the Rafale with the latest and best possible tech on the market. Such as HMDS, Colour wide-angle HUDs, customised weapons package, customised EW suite, customised avionics etc so will differ from any versions of Rafales currently built.


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## The enlightened

Abingdonboy said:


> I believe the M88-3 (that produces 90KN of thrust) is the engine speculated to be on the IAF Rafales. The engine has already been tested so by the time IAF receives first deliveries in 2014-5 the engine should be more than ready to be installed. The IAF are looking for a highly customised " MKIsation " on the Rafale with the latest and best possible tech on the market. Such as HMDS, Colour wide-angle HUDs, customised weapons package, customised EW suite, customised avionics etc so will differ from any versions of Rafales currently built.


You've got any source for the above claims.
Especially 'MKIsation'. Whatever it means.


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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> Finally!
> 
> Check out this video:
> 
> [video]<object classid="clsid27CDB6E-AE6D-11cf-96B8-444553540000" width="1024" height="768"><param name="movie" value="http://www.rafale.co.in/index.php?option=com_webplayer&view=player" /><param name="allowfullscreen" value="true" /><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always" /><param name="flashvars" value="baseJ=http://www.rafale.co.in/&type=youtube&video=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlvIbwQAhPw&streamer=0&preview=http://img.youtube.com/vi/YlvIbwQAhPw/0.jpg&" /><object type="application/x-shockwave-flash" data="http://www.rafale.co.in/index.php?option=com_webplayer&view=player" width="1024" height="768"><param name="movie" value="http://www.rafale.co.in/index.php?option=com_webplayer&view=player" /><param name="allowfullscreen" value="true" /><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always" /><param name="flashvars" value="baseJ=http://www.rafale.co.in/&type=youtube&video=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlvIbwQAhPw&streamer=0&preview=http://img.youtube.com/vi/YlvIbwQAhPw/0.jpg&" /><iframe title="YouTube video player" width="1024" height="768" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/YlvIbwQAhPw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe></object></object>[/video]


Pretty generic marketing vid unfortunately. No India-specific reference, you'd think for a possibly $20 BN deal these guys could deliver a custimedsed, personalised video (Same goes for all MMRCA participants).


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## Abingdonboy

The enlightened said:


> You've got any source for the above claims.
> Especially 'MKIsation'. Whatever it means.



Not as of yet as the final configuration for Rafale IAF gets is still tbc but it is only natural given the IAF's history and doctrine, almost every purchase of theirs be it fighters or transports have a high degree of customisation (M2k UPG, MIG-29UPG, C-130,SU-30 etc). When the IAF recieves their first batch 2014-5 most of these techs will be readily available and readily offered by Dassualt (no doubt ALREADY offered as sweeteners to help clinch the deal). Not to mention many of these were stipulated in RFI to be able to be fitted on IAF versions. 


+ IAF/IN has supplied BHEL IFF to LM/Boeing for C-130-30J/P-8I.

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## praveen007

*Eppur Si Muove !: The MRCA Story And What It Means For India*


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## Gra_Vity

Whether Transfer of Technology includes Spectra and other systems and dengine design Access?


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## Velocity

I think its mere presumption that French help in engine or missiles technology. Either MICA or Kaveri or to LCA project. The deal is for MMRCA only. However if its provide such faciljty might beLCA shall get better Advantage and Tech.


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## praveen007

*India to share its $10 bn fighter selection experience with Brazil - The Times of India
.
. 
India to share its $10 bn fighter selection experience with Brazil

NEW DELHI: In an unusual bilateral tie-up, India has agreed to share with Brazil some of its experiences of carrying out an open tender evaluation to select a fighter for the over $10 billion MMRCA (Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft) contract. Brazil is presently in the process of selecting a fighter for its air force.* 

India conveyed its willingness to share some of its documentation on the MMRCA contract during a meeting between defence minister AK Antony and his Brazilian counterpart Celso Amorim. 

*"Brazil is in the process of buying a fighter jet. You have already reached the final stages of the fighter selection for the air force. They have promised to give us some documents on the selection process, such as basic rules on the tender process that we could compare to ours," Amorim told TOI.* 

Amorim met Antony and national security advisor Shiv Shankar Menon on Monday in New Delhi, and the two sides held bilateral defence consultations at various levels. 

*Amorim said Brazil was eager to learn from India's process of finalizing Rafale, the French fighter, for the over $10 billion MMRCA contract. It is one of the world's biggest defence tenders right now.* 

Brazil is looking to buy 36 new fighters for its air force. The tender had left it open to the possibility of the number of fighters going up to 120. The tender could run into several billion dollars, though the initial estimate was just $2.2 billion. Brazil has already made a pre-selection of three fighters - Rafale, F-18 and Gripen-NG and one will finally be selected. 

*"Wherever there is a possibility we should always look for sharing of experience, of course while respecting confidentiality," Amorim said. "Sharing of experience doesn't mean we follow your decision," he added. The minister also said they would be looking at discussing Indian experience of building a fifth generation fighter with Russia.* 

Brazil is also providing India an exclusively developed catalogue of NATO military equipment, in which India was interested, he said.

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## praveen007

*A dogfight over Delhi | idrw.org*
++





.
.
*A dogfight over Delhi
Published February 8, 2012
SOURCE:-FINANCIAL TIMES*
.
.
Sir Stephen Dalton, the UK&#8217;s chief of air staff,
hurtled down the runway behind the controls of
a Russian-designed Sukhoi-30 at the Kalaikunda
air base in West Bengal. The deafening roar of the
engines of the mainstay of the Indian air force
swept over a small band of observers gathered
just over a year ago in the rising tropical heat.
Minutes later, a Royal Air Force Eurofighter
Typhoon built by a British, German, Italian and
Spanish consortium took to the skies as part of a
staged dogfight with India&#8217;s French Mirages and
Russian aircraft, designed to impress officials
seeking to modernise an ageing fleet. Its near-
vertical take-off was met with awed admiration.
Within the sights of Sir Stephen, a veteran of the
first Gulf war &#8211; as well as his political masters and
hundreds of aerospace executives &#8211; was one of
the world&#8217;s most sought-after jet fighter
contracts. London, Paris and Washington were all
vying to re-equip the world&#8217;s largest democracy
with 126 fighters &#8211; about one-10th of the force &#8211;
seeing it as a chance to put a seal on a defining
bilateral relationship of the 21st century.
Worth up to $20bn, the deal to supply India &#8211;
with its fast-growing economy and geopolitical
status, and concern about the threat from
Pakistan to the north and China to the east &#8211;
offered a European defence establishment
suffering shrinking military budgets back home
the chance to reshape the industry landscape.
But the mock battle was the closest the Typhoon
came to the target. New Delhi last week chose
Dassault&#8217;s Rafale over the Eurofighter at the end of
an eight-year competition. The significance of the
agreement is being compared to that of the UK&#8217;s
record al-Yamama deal with Saudi Arabia, signed
in the 1980s. Optimists say it could be signed
within eight months, joining a $9.3bn agreement
for France to supply India with two nuclear plants
and another to build it a modern conventional
submarine fleet worth $4bn.
&#8220;This is a major win for France, and a major loss
for the UK &#8230; French political backing has been
essential in strengthening the French bid and the
Rafale win is therefore also a major victory for
President Nicolas Sarkozy,&#8221; says Endre Lunde, an
aerospace and defence consultant at IHS Jane&#8217;s, a
defence consultancy.
Rafale&#8217;s selection is a bitter disappointment for all
four nations in the consortium, and highlights
Indian doubts about a pan-European partnership
at a time of financial and political strain on the
continent.
It has a particular sting for David Cameron. The
UK prime minister identified the Indian market as
one of the most important for Britain&#8217;s exporters
&#8211; but this opening gambit to his premiership has
shown scant return even though accompanied
by £1bn of aid in the next four years.
The decision also deals a blow to Mr Cameron&#8217;s
attempt to style himself a champion of trade
missions led by the private sector &#8211; unlike
France&#8217;s dirigiste approach &#8211; and of Britain&#8217;s
dwindling manufacturing base.
Eurofighter&#8217;s backers thought it the lead
contender, bringing more advanced technology
and strategic clout than the Rafale, which had not
been sold outside France. Their confidence soared
after US rivals &#8211; Boeing&#8217;s F/A-18 Super Hornet
and Lockheed Martin&#8217;s F-16 Super Viper &#8211; were
knocked out of the highly secretive medium
multi-role combat aircraft contest last year.
In London and Berlin, contractors salivated at the
idea of harnessing via industrial partnership a
greater share of India&#8217;s $36bn annual defence
budget &#8211; one of the world&#8217;s largest, and probably
a third of China&#8217;s. A big European purchase
would shift India away from reliance on Russia
and show the US was not the only alternative as
Delhi sought to rearm itself in light of mounting
concerns about a more assertive Beijing.
The executives of the consortium partners were
convinced Eurofighter offered a superior so-called
&#8220;4th generation&#8221; aircraft suited to aerial combat
and able to strike targets on the ground. They
were also confident they had priced it
competitively, in spite of some analysts&#8217; claims
that the Rafale was up to 10 per cent cheaper.
*.
. . . . , . . , for full article please go to above link*

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## Nishan_101

Really I have been thinking about the Rafael N the dual seat version of Rafeal M as this wasn't possible due to the lack of funds and now Dassault has some cash in near future from this $20 Billion 200+ Planes deal and now they are surely going to put this in Rafael N project and its good for INAF's IAC-2 and IAC-3, which is still under construction. I am sure if IAF has selected it then INAF will also look into this deal too.what do you say?

---------- Post added at 09:59 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:58 AM ----------

Hoping that the Brazilian will going to select Su-35s in the end, although there are some sounds of Rafael out there.


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## Alphacharlie

Hello_10 said:


> with new engine, I heard IAF is negotiatng for something above F4 with F5 version in keeping mind



A Naval Embargo by US Navy for over 3 months could lead to issues with Oil Supply and Destroying of Trade However, in Case of China and Pakistan seeing our Coast line of 7000+ sq km this will be a "Farse"

By the way please be informed when you buy a weapon system, we also buy support equipment and spares. Look at the C 130J or ANTPQ systems the spares and support equipment has been bought in sufficent quantitys for entire Life cycle.


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## rockstarIN

praveen007 said:


> *India to share its $10 bn fighter selection experience with Brazil - The Times of India
> .
> .
> India to share its $10 bn fighter selection experience with Brazil
> 
> NEW DELHI: In an unusual bilateral tie-up, India has agreed to share with Brazil some of its experiences of carrying out an open tender evaluation to select a fighter for the over $10 billion MMRCA (Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft) contract. Brazil is presently in the process of selecting a fighter for its air force.*
> 
> India conveyed its willingness to share some of its documentation on the MMRCA contract during a meeting between defence minister AK Antony and his Brazilian counterpart Celso Amorim.
> 
> *"Brazil is in the process of buying a fighter jet. You have already reached the final stages of the fighter selection for the air force. They have promised to give us some documents on the selection process, such as basic rules on the tender process that we could compare to ours," Amorim told TOI.*
> 
> Amorim met Antony and national security advisor Shiv Shankar Menon on Monday in New Delhi, and the two sides held bilateral defence consultations at various levels.
> 
> *Amorim said Brazil was eager to learn from India's process of finalizing Rafale, the French fighter, for the over $10 billion MMRCA contract. It is one of the world's biggest defence tenders right now.*
> 
> Brazil is looking to buy 36 new fighters for its air force. The tender had left it open to the possibility of the number of fighters going up to 120. The tender could run into several billion dollars, though the initial estimate was just $2.2 billion. Brazil has already made a pre-selection of three fighters - Rafale, F-18 and Gripen-NG and one will finally be selected.
> 
> *"Wherever there is a possibility we should always look for sharing of experience, of course while respecting confidentiality," Amorim said. "Sharing of experience doesn't mean we follow your decision," he added. The minister also said they would be looking at discussing Indian experience of building a fifth generation fighter with Russia.*
> 
> Brazil is also providing India an exclusively developed catalogue of NATO military equipment, in which India was interested, he said.



Is this the reason BraZil defence minister is in India?, a negotiating point with French in the deal though.


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## Black Widow

Nishan_101 said:


> Hoping that the Brazilian will going to select Su-35s in the end, although there are some sounds of Rafael out there.




depends on there need, If they need Air superiority Heavy fighter they will definitely select Su35BM. Su 35 belongs to Heavy class like F15s, F22, PAK-FA and J20. 

While AFAIK Brasil is looking for medium class fighter.. Hope you understand the difference... 

@topic: If Brasil too order Rafael, French will be very happy.


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## rockstarIN

1. French naval Rafales were once &#8216;nailed to the ground&#8217; after a virus infection.

2. Eurofighter came across as cheaper than Gripen In Austria on the basis of its payment plan.

3. Some believed that the selection of the GE414 engine for LCA over Eurojet meant Gripen, F/A-18 had an edge in the MMRCA.

4. Contrary to popular belief, the MMRCA tender process was not completely spotless.

5. Boeing offered more power for the F/A-18 SuperHornet it offered for the contest.

6. The previous IAF chief, Air Chief Marshal Pradeep Vasant Naik, apprehended graft complaints by the losers to the Chief Vigilance Commissioner.

7. The Eurofighter is the only aircraft of the MMRCA-6 that has never given a back-seat ride to any Indian.

8. Only the MiG-35 has never been in a combat operation, after Libya 2011.

9. How long to sign on the Rafale? IAF Mirage-2000 upgrade took 5 years to bargain to USD 2.4 B & USD 1.23 B for MICA missiles.

10. Normally, the Ministry of Defense sends loser the letter and calls winner in for a chat. In the case of the MMRCA, it was the reverse.

11. The F-16 aircraft has a really stiff joystick on the left side of the seat.

12. All you TopGun fans, that fighter was the F-14. Tomcat pilots initially hated the idea of converting to Hornets.

13. The F-16 is flown by 24 other countries. 25, now, with the Iraqi order.

14. Even after selection of Rafale, all 5 other aircraft cos wait with curiosity. Yes they do. Context.

15. The math for comparing the bids of Rafale & Eurofighter was completed by the 1st week of Dec 2011.

16. The contest is governed by 2006 rules, though rules were last updated in Jan 2011 | StratPost

17. Indian security minsters group can disregard the lowest bid and award the contract for strategic reasons.

18. Rafale won only because Eurofighter was the only other aircraft shortlisted.

19. Gripen replaced MiG-21 in the Czech Republic and Eurofighter replaced MiG-29 in Germany (brought about to replace the F-4).

20. In theory, this is how Gripen would operate off public roads.

21. Gripen only aircraft built by UN Security Council non-member, hence claimed to be free of political considerations.

22. Proof of concept: F/A-18 can operate off public roads too.

23. Only F/A-18 SuperHornet & F-16IN of the six aircraft satisfy the key IAF requirement of an operational AESA radar.

24. The F-16IN had the single most powerful engine of all 6 aircraft in the competition.

25. F/A-18 Super Hornet was accused of being underpowered, inspite of having offered a more powerful engine.

26. Rafale pissed off the UAE last year when a newspaper owned by Dassault said Israel provided it security assistance.

27. Rafale lost to F-16 in Morocco and Sarkozy said &#8216;the better aircraft won&#8217; (see Wikileaks).

28. India will be the first and largest export customer for the Rafale if the contract is signed.

29. Rafale was once thrown out of the contest.

30. At the time of being kicked out, the excuse given was Rafale had low thrust to weight ratio .

31. Eurofighter&#8217;s left wing built in Italy, right in Spain & fuselage divided between UK & Germany.

32. Four of the six aircraft also made offers to Indian Navy, even though only 2 of them were carrier capable. F-35 JSF also pitched.

33. Eurofighter and Gripen offered Indian Navy a carrier-borne naval concept. F/A-18 SuperHornet & Rafale were other two.

34. The 4 aircraft ejected from the contest have only recently begun having their bid documentation returned to them.

35. IAF considered a total of 643 parameters to test the six aircraft in field evaluation trials.

36. Four of the six aircraft were ejected from the contest exactly the day before their commercial bids were to expire.

37. The contest saw lost files & attempted bribery at the Bangalore Air Show, AeroIndia.

38. The last US ambassador to India resigned the day after both the two US aircraft were ejected.

39. The F-35 JSF is waiting in the wings it it doesn&#8217;t work out. Kinda: US offers India the JSF.

40. Rules require MMRCA winner to plow back 50% of the order value into Indian industry.

41. The cost of the Rafale and Eurofighter was evaluated from the exchange rate at the Parliament Street branch of the State Bank of India in New Delhi.

42. Dassault stock rose 22% when the Rafale was announced L1, but could practically benefit only stockholders with 3.13% share.

43. EADS, one of the parent companies of the Eurofighter, owns 46% of Dassault, the manufacturer of the Rafale.

44. This contest tested all six aircraft by requiring them to land and take off from the highest 



> StratPost tweeted facts about the Indian Air Force (IAF) tender for 126 Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) and the participating aircraft last week. Here they are on a single page, for easy reference. And please feel free to add any more in the comments. They will be updated on this page.


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## Nishan_101

Really I have been thinking about the Rafael N the dual seat version of Rafeal M as this wasn't possible due to the lack of funds and now Dassault has some cash in near future from this $20 Billion 200+ Planes deal and now they are surely going to put this in Rafael N project and its good for INAF's IAC-2 and IAC-3, which is still under construction. I am sure if IAF has selected it then INAF will also look into this deal too.what do you say?


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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> I believe the M88-3 (that produces 90KN of thrust) is the engine speculated to be on the IAF Rafales. The engine has already been tested so by the time IAF receives first deliveries in 2014-5 the engine should be more than ready to be installed. The IAF are looking for a highly customised " MKIsation " on the Rafale with the latest and best possible tech on the market. Such as HMDS, Colour wide-angle HUDs, customised weapons package, customised EW suite, customised avionics etc so will differ from any versions of Rafales currently built.



The M88-3 was never speculated for IAF, only for the UAE but even they understood that more thrust is not needed at the moment. More interesting would be a possible integration of Kaveri/Snecma engine, which would be based on the M88-3. Why fund and integrate M88-3, if Kaveri/Snecma might be possible too? 
Wrt customisation, Indian forces mainly customised aircrafts in fields where changes were needed. The P8I, C130s for example couldn't be bought with certain communication or navigation techs, due to US restrictions, therefor we had to integrate Indian, Israeli or European counterparts. The Russian fighters offered less capable avionics, that's why they were customised...
For Rafale, we might add some parts that the French didn't funded yet like HMS, or IRST in the F3+, maybe even the Litening pod for more commonality, but it won't get major parts from Israel or India. 




Nishan_101 said:


> Hoping that the Brazilian will going to select Su-35s in the end, although there are some sounds of Rafael out there.



Su 35 was rejected in Brazil, only Rafale, F18SH and Gripen E/F were shortlisted and the Rafale is the prefered fighter, just too costly at the moment.
However, news from Switzerland said that Dassault was able to offer a reduced bid because of the Indian deal and lowered production costs. That is very interesting for Brazil, UAE or other possible export countries too!


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## rockstarIN

sancho said:


> The M88-3 was never speculated for IAF, only for the UAE but even they understood that more thrust is not needed at the moment. More interesting would be a possible integration of Kaveri/Snecma engine, which would be based on the M88-3. Why fund and integrate M88-3, if Kaveri/Snecma might be possible too?
> Wrt customisation, Indian forces mainly customised aircrafts in fields where changes were needed. The P8I, C130s for example couldn't be bought with certain communication or navigation techs, due to US restrictions, therefor we had to integrate Indian, Israeli or European counterparts. The Russian fighters offered less capable avionics, that's why they were customised...
> For Rafale, we might add some parts that the French didn't funded yet like HMS, or IRST in the F3+, maybe even the Litening pod for more commonality, but it won't get major parts from Israel or India.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Su 35 was rejected in Brazil, only Rafale, F18SH and Gripen E/F were shortlisted and the Rafale is the prefered fighter, just too costly at the moment.
> H*owever, news from Switzerland said that Dassault was able to offer a reduced bid because of the Indian deal and lowered production costs. That is very interesting for Brazil, UAE or other possible export countries too!*



Economies of scale...cool, in fact we too should benefit from it.


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## sancho

rockstar said:


> Economies of scale...cool, in fact we too should benefit from it.



Of course and it will be interesting to see what parts will be produced in India then, but much will depend on the capability to Indian industry to absorb the ToT and quickly start production.


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## praveen007

rockstar said:


> Is this the reason BraZil defence minister is in India?, a negotiating point with French in the deal though.


. 
.
It was one of the reason.
The main focus was on defence coopration between Brazile and India on various aspect, such as-
awacs, missile, aviation and other defence industries.


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## Ping

Currently Brazil and UAE is thinking about going the Rafale way. While Brazil is alright, UAE is very bad news! I hope Rafale fails in the UAE bid. This way Pakistan will get to know even less of Rafale.


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## Ping

What I find incredible is that the max weapons load of Rafale is 9500kgs. Guess what the empty weight of Rafale is? 9500kgs!! *Rafale can carry the same amount of ammunition and weapons as it's entire body weight! The only fighter in the entire world to do that. The only fighter in the entire history of aviation to do that! Simply breath taking.* Even Su-30MKI, a heavy fighter, whose empty weight is 18400kgs, can only carry 8000kgs of weapons. This proves that Rafale is truly an Omnirole fighter... capable of carrying heavy Air to Ground weapons. IAF made a superb choice to compliment the MKI. How on earth did the french manage to pull of something like that... truly an engineering marvel.

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## SamantK

Ping said:


> What I find incredible is that the max weapons load of Rafale is 9500kgs. Guess what the empty weight of Rafale is? 9500kgs!! *Rafale can carry the same amount of ammunition and weapons as it's entire body weight! The only fighter in the entire world to do that. The only fighter in the entire history of aviation to do that! Simply breath taking.* Even Su-30MKI, a heavy fighter, whose empty weight is 18400kgs, can only carry 8000kgs of weapons. This proves that Rafale is truly an Omnirole fighter... capable of carrying heavy Air to Ground weapons. IAF made a superb choice to compliment the MKI. How on earth did the french manage to pull of something like that... truly an engineering marvel.


any credible source?


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## Ping

Here you go- 
Rafale - Rafale Specs
Masse à vide : *9,5t *
Capacité d'emport en charges externes : *9,5t*

How on earth are HAL un-professional babus going to absorb the technology and manufacture such an incredibly advanced aircraft like the rafale. My hopes for a rafale production by HAL within time-frame is fading away.


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## Azmal

So Inda seklcted rafale after 10 years ...lol no worries///Pakistan has JF 17 AND J 10 COMING ALONG JXX AND JXXX Stealth and semi stealth....Pakistan will have edge


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## Executioner

Azmal said:


> Chinese fighter are beeyter than Indian MMRCA , why so buzz about it..Indian are foll buy so mych expensive fighter when we have JF 17 and J10 at cheap....when Pakistan has stealth fighter it will nbo compare to IAF..and son we will have it
> 
> ---------- Post added at 09:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:35 PM ----------
> 
> Radale is failed fighter so UAE BRAZIL and many oter reject it...hahaaaa



Keep laughing this what you can do not more than that. First compare your defense budget with us then start laughing.


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## Ping

> So Inda seklcted rafale after 10 years ...lol no worries///Pakistan has JF 17 AND J 10 COMING ALONG JXX AND JXXX Stealth and semi stealth....Pakistan will have edge
> Chinese fighter are beeyter than Indian MMRCA , why so buzz about it..Indian are foll buy so mych expensive fighter when we have JF 17 and J10 at cheap....when Pakistan has stealth fighter it will nbo compare to IAF..and son we will have it
> 
> ---------- Post added at 09:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:35 PM ----------
> 
> Radale is failed fighter so UAE BRAZIL and many oter reject it...hahaaaa










You were right.

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## Shaurya

Azmal said:


> So Inda seklcted rafale after 10 years ...lol no worries///Pakistan has JF 17 AND J 10 COMING ALONG JXX AND JXXX Stealth and semi stealth....Pakistan will have edge



First take out USA from your country and then we will talk about who is better, lol, if ur jf -17 bandaar are so advanced, why is usa still bombing your a$$?? Stop living in wonderland and come back to reality

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## Abingdonboy

Azmal said:


> *So Inda seklcted rafale after 10 years* ...lol no worries///Pakistan has JF 17 AND J 10 COMING ALONG JXX AND JXXX Stealth and semi stealth....Pakistan will have edge



The MMRCA project in its present form has only been going on 3-4 years, the decade time frame is an utter myth. Added to that taking only 1-2 years to flight/ weapons test and conduct theoretical analysis of 6 of the most advanced fighters on the planet is very impressive for which the IAF has been highly commended by domestic and foreign analysts. Additionally the technical process conducted by the IAF has been highly praised, given the sheer scale of the task given to them ( there were something like 7,000,000 pages of technical info to digest not to mention 200+ technical parameters IAF had outlined and selection board had to apply these to the participating a/c) they performed exceptionally and efficientally. The IAF judged all the ac on technical worth and presented the 2 ac (EFT, Rafele) who closest matched the IAF's exacting standards. The MoD consequently stated the final decision will be made purely on a technical/cost basis based on IAF recommendations. As the IAF (and Indian armed forces as a whole) are notoriously incorruptible, so you tell me where is the room for kickbacks? not to mention new stringent anti-corruption rules by the MoD for defence procurement not to mention the scale of this program and public exposure would mean there was sufficient deterrent to keep this corruption-free.


I'd like to see you do a better job.



+ regarding PAF 5th gen fighters- maybe by 2035-40 (no joke).

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## Shaurya

Abingdonboy said:


> The MMRCA project in its present form has only been going on 3-4 years, the decade time frame is an utter myth. Added to that taking only 1-2 years to flight/ weapons test and conduct theoretical analysis of 6 of the most advanced fighters on the planet is very impressive for which the IAF has been highly commended by domestic and foreign analysts. Additionally the technical process conducted by the IAF has been highly praised, given the sheer scale of the task given to them ( there were something like 7,000,000 pages of technical info to digest not to mention 200+ technical parameters IAF had outlined and selection board had to apply these to the participating a/c) they performed exceptionally and efficientally. The IAF judged all the ac on technical worth and presented the 2 ac (EFT, Rafele) who closest matched the IAF's exacting standards. The MoD consequently stated the final decision will be made purely on a technical/cost basis based on IAF recommendations. As the IAF (and Indian armed forces as a whole) are notoriously incorruptible, so you tell me where is the room for kickbacks? not to mention new stringent anti-corruption rules by the MoD for defence procurement not to mention the scale of this program and public exposure would mean there was sufficient deterrent to keep this corruption-free.
> 
> 
> I'd like to see you do a better job.
> 
> 
> 
> + regarding PAF 5th gen fighters- *maybe by 2035-40* (no joke).



That is, if pakistan survives the taliban invasion and the radicalism, not only is it affecting us, it is affecting them to, big time, now only if they stop their drama and start thinking wisely and also get the hatred for india out, it is their dear islam and their dear maulvis and talibanis that are destroying their country not RAW or mossad or CIA, infact US is "suppossedly" there for the same reason, the american jokers never paid attention when we told them to watch out the talibanization of pakistan, now spend trilllions on "war on terror"


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## sudhir007

Livefist: EXCLUSIVE: Impressions Of Rafale In IAF Colours

















These superb 3D impressions of the Dassault Rafale in Indian Air Force colours have been made available exclusively to Livefist by artist/illustrator Anurag Rana. If the Rafale manages to pull off the MMRCA deal, this is what the jet will look like when delivered.

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## sancho




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## jester

Well the euphoria has died down but I must congratulate the Indian Air force Force for their future procurement, besides I always rooted for the Rafale. bonne passe


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## anathema

IAF fighter deal: Rafale much cheaper than Typhoon; govt rules out review - The Times of India


Wow this is unbelivable !! French has really given some low bid !! OR is this a prank by MoD to bring down Typhoon's cost..either ways excellent news for India

---------- Post added at 06:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:21 PM ----------




sancho said:


>



I believe this is the article written by Peter Collins former RAF Wing Co. He was derided severly acorss all the forums for making statements such as 'If i want to fly a fighter in battlefield then it has to be Rafale'. People were questioning his judgement and test results since he has notably not flown in new fighter jets !!


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## sancho

anathema said:


> IAF fighter deal: Rafale much cheaper than Typhoon; govt rules out review - The Times of India
> 
> Wow this is unbelivable !! French has really given some low bid !! OR is this a prank by MoD to bring down Typhoon's cost..either ways excellent news for India



ToI is not the most reliable source, but it was reported some days ago from a French source as well:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/4347-mrca-news-discussions-530.html#post2568887


However, this ToI reports has several interesting infos, which would confirm a lot of what many of us expected anyway:



> ..."The fact is that the cost deferential between *Typhoon* and Rafale was very high... it *would cost India around 22% to 25% more* if the former had been selected. No government can agree to so much extra," the source said...
> 
> ...For one, the "*life cycle cost" of operating the Typhoon over a 40-year period*, with 6,000 hours of flying, *was found to be "higher" than Rafale* after extensive calculations of flight costs, spares, maintenance and the like. "The life cycle costs were actually the tool to determine who was L-1 (lowest bidder)," he said.
> 
> For another, the difference in the 'direct acquisition cost', which will actually be used to ink the contract, was even bigger. "The Typhoon's commercial bid was way too high. *Rafale was the clear L-1 in both life cycle as well as direct acquisition costs,*" he added...






anathema said:


> I believe this is the article written by Peter Collins former RAF Wing Co.



http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/3015/fi2c.jpg

http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/3308/fi3b.jpg

http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/8770/fi4y.jpg








http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/1089/ihs2.jpg

Credits to Olybrius from the MP forum!

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## anathema

sancho said:


> ToI is not the most reliable source, but it was reported some days ago from a French source as well:
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/4347-mrca-news-discussions-530.html#post2568887
> 
> 
> However, this ToI reports has several interesting infos, which would confirm a lot of what many of us expected anyway:



True some good info (if credible). Also it confirms everyone assumption that Deal is indeed 20 Bil Dollars considering that 25% is 25000 crores ($5 Bil )


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## ironwarrier

IAF fighter deal: Rafale much cheaper than Typhoon; govt rules out review
StoryComments


Read more on »Typhoon|Rafale|MoD|IAF fighter deal|IAF|Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd|HAL



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NEW DELHI: It was the "substantially higher cost" of acquiring and operating the Eurofighter Typhoon that led to its ejection from the almost $20 billion MMRCA ( medium multi-role combat aircraft) project to supply 126 fighters to IAF. 

"The French Rafale jet, the eventual winner, beat the Typhoon hollow both in terms of life cycle costs and direct acquisition costs. The entire MMRCA project cost would have gone up by around Rs 25,000 crore if Typhoon had been selected over Rafale," a top defence ministry source said on Thursday. 

Given all this, MoD has ruled out the possibility of "any comeback" by Typhoon despite carping by the four nations (UK, Germany, Spain and Italy) backing it, and will begin "exclusive and extensive negotiations" with Rafale-manufacturer Dassault Aviation next week. "The actual contract for the complex project should be ready for inking by September-October," said a source. 

British PM David Cameron may have vowed to "encourage" India to reconsider its decision to go in for Rafale, instead of the EADS-manufactured Typhoon, in the largest "open-tender" military aviation deal going around the globe. But that is highly unlikely to happen. 

"The fact is that the cost deferential between Typhoon and Rafale was very high... it would cost India around 22% to 25% more if the former had been selected. No government can agree to so much extra," the source said. 

Both Rafale and Typhoon had been found "compliant" on all the 643-660 technical parameters laid down to meet specific operational requirements of India, after gruelling field trials by IAF test pilots spread over two years. 

The other four jets -- the American F/A-18 'Super Hornet' and F-16 'Super Viper', the Russian MiG-35 and Swedish Gripen - were weeded out from the hotly-contested race last year since they did not meet all the "test points". 

"We went by the book, first in the extensive technical evaluation and now in the meticulous commercial evaluation, without any external factors coming into play," said the source. 

For one, the "life cycle cost" of operating the Typhoon over a 40-year period, with 6,000 hours of flying, was found to be "higher" than Rafale after extensive calculations of flight costs, spares, maintenance and the like. "The life cycle costs were actually the tool to determine who was L-1 (lowest bidder)," he said. 

For another, the difference in the 'direct acquisition cost', which will actually be used to ink the contract, was even bigger. "The Typhoon's commercial bid was way too high. Rafale was the clear L-1 in both life cycle as well as direct acquisition costs," he added. 

Dassault will now have to submit a detailed project report on the transfer of technology (ToT) to Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL). While the first 18 jets will come in "fly-away condition'' from France from mid-2015 onwards, the rest 108 fighters will subsequently be manufactured under licence by HAL over six years. 

"We will negotiate each and every element in the complex project with the French. Payments, as also the 50% offsets specified in the contract, will be spread over 11 to 13 years," he said. 

The first jet built in HAL is expected to roll out by 2017-2018. Thereafter, HAL will deliver six jets per year, which will go up to 20 per year later. "HAL will achieve 85% technology absorption by the end. Incidentally, Typhoon's cost of ToT was also very high," he said. 

This "mother" of all defence deals will later become the "granny", as reported by TOI earlier, since India will in all probability go in for another 63 fighters after the first 126 jets. 

IAF is looking at these 126 new jets, apart from the ongoing progressive induction of 272 Sukhoi-30MKIs contracted from Russia for around $12 billion, to stem its fast-eroding combat edge against Pakistan and China. IAF has already identified Ambala and Jodhpur airbases in the western sector, followed by Hashimara in the eastern sector, to house the first MMRCA squadrons. 

India is now finalizing details of the stealth Indo-Russian FGFA (fifth-generation fighter aircraft) to be built in the coming decades. IAF hopes to begin inducting the first lot of the 250 to 300 FGFA from 2020 onwards, which rough calculations show will eventually cost India around $35 billion.

IAF fighter deal: Rafale much cheaper than Typhoon; govt rules out review - The Economic Times

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## vijayjha

selecting Rafale has another strategic advantage , its arch rival Pakistan wont be able to get any other plane out of five (except F16) . Euro-fighter is too expensive for Pakistan , Rafale is out of PAF's equation now , Gripen will be banned by USA as it uses lot of american components and F18 is out of PAF's league .
so basically selecting Rafale will leave Pakistan with only option of Chinese toys thus giving IAF clear edge over PAF .


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## praveen007

*Flying into rough weather - The Times of India
++
Flying into rough weather*
.
India's long and convoluted search for a new
fighter plane - a medium multi-role combat
aircraft (MMRCA) - has entered its final stage. New
Delhi has just announced that the Rafale, built by
Dassault Aviation of France, has been chosen to
meet the Indian Air Force's (IAF) requirement.
Only price negotiation now remains.
The Rafale had been shortlisted along with the
Eurofighter Typhoon from a field that originally
included four more jets: the US-built F-16 and
F-18, the Russian MiG-35 and the Swedish JAS 39
Gripen. But though the fight over the selection is
over, questions about the wisdom of New Delhi's
choice are unlikely to end any time soon.
Commenting on the MMRCA decision, a former
IAF officer proudly stated that this was probably
the first decision that was made purely on
technical grounds. If accurate, this reveals serious
strategic shortsightedness. While the government
should have received inputs from the IAF, such a
decision should not have been taken on purely
technical grounds. For India's decision-makers,
limiting themselves to technical specifications was
a risk-free option, but that reveals more about the
state of strategic decision-making in Delhi than the
wisdom of the choice they made.
Ideally, the Indian decision should have been
guided by a strategy that balances reducing
danger and broadening opportunity. Accordingly,
the question for New Delhi should have been
how to use this lucrative deal to beef up India's
strategic options. Thus, it is probably a strategic
blunder to narrowly focus on technical
specifications and capabilities alone, as many
proponents of the IAF's choice have done.
A decision of this magnitude should have been
filtered through three key parameters: strategic,
operational and tactical. A pragmatic strategy
would have been to analyse the risk and
opportunity through these three parameters and
then make the final decision about which of the
fighter plane choices would have best advanced
Indian security. In strategic and geopolitical
terms, France can provide little help to India in
either Asia or in the global theatre. While France
has always been a well-wisher, it has never had
much capacity to help India. For example, though
France wanted to sell India nuclear reactors, it
could do little to change the nuclear non-
proliferation rules that prevented it from doing so.
It took Washington to change these rules to
India's benefit.
Additionally, numbers (of aircraft India could
acquire) and cost should have been factored in.
Buying fewer but more expensive aircraft might
make some fighter jocks happy, but having
greater numbers might be more relevant to a
country like India which faces a two-front threat
from China and Pakistan. It was often argued in
the MMRCA debate that maintaining air superiority
required technological superiority, range and
payload but an equally important consideration is
that of numbers.
Numerical superiority in India's regional context is
of particular significance given that the current
strength of India's fighter jets is only around 600,
and unless replenished, it will reach critically low
numbers soon. Meanwhile, both Beijing and
Islamabad have been augmenting their fighter
fleets. India could have procured far greater
numbers of fighters with the US or Russian
option.
Though the probability of a two-front war is low,
no pragmatic Indian strategic decision-maker
should rule it out. Indeed, it is precisely for this
reason that the Indian army is raising new forces
to deploy on the China border. It is unclear if the
technological superiority of the Rafale is so great
as to compensate for the smaller numbers that
India will have to settle for.
Cost should have also had an important role in
the MMRCA decision. India's decision to go for
Rafale is going to cost New Delhi around $20
billion, if not more. Opting for a Russian or US jet
would have been far cheaper. The Russian option
would have been the least expensive whereas the
American fighters would have been somewhere
in the middle with the European jets being the
most expensive. In overall terms, the American
F-18s would have been the best given that they
(as well as the F-16s) came with the second-
generation AESA radars.
Lastly, the most important consideration should
have been the strategic benefits that accrue to
India through this deal. Indian decision-makers
should have been mindful of the fact that this deal
was as much about making strategic investments
in a relationship as simply buying fighters. India
does not enjoy a benign neighbourhood, and
these security needs are important. But India also
needs to balance these with its requirements as a
rising power, which means having capable
friends. The MMRCA deal was a great opportunity
to consolidate its strategic ties with either Russia
or the US, or even with both. Instead, New Delhi
has ended up antagonising both of them.
The standard response that India has signed
many other defence contracts with both Russia
and the US does not wash because this was a
very different and high-profile deal which was
closely watched around the world. Signing
smaller deals, even if they add up to significant
amounts, does not have the same weight as the
MMRCA deal. New Delhi needs to be more careful
in both understanding strategic moments and
being able to exploit them if it wants to sit at the
global high table.


----------



## vijayjha

praveen007 said:


> *Flying into rough weather - The Times of India
> ++
> Flying into rough weather*
> .
> India's long and convoluted search for a new
> fighter plane - a medium multi-role combat
> aircraft (MMRCA) - has entered its final stage. New
> Delhi has just announced that the Rafale, built by
> Dassault Aviation of France, has been chosen to
> meet the Indian Air Force's (IAF) requirement.
> Only price negotiation now remains.
> The Rafale had been shortlisted along with the
> Eurofighter Typhoon from a field that originally
> included four more jets: the US-built F-16 and
> F-18, the Russian MiG-35 and the Swedish JAS 39
> Gripen. But though the fight over the selection is
> over, questions about the wisdom of New Delhi's
> choice are unlikely to end any time soon.
> Commenting on the MMRCA decision, a former
> IAF officer proudly stated that this was probably
> the first decision that was made purely on
> technical grounds. If accurate, this reveals serious
> strategic shortsightedness. While the government
> should have received inputs from the IAF, such a
> decision should not have been taken on purely
> technical grounds. For India's decision-makers,
> limiting themselves to technical specifications was
> a risk-free option, but that reveals more about the
> state of strategic decision-making in Delhi than the
> wisdom of the choice they made.
> Ideally, the Indian decision should have been
> guided by a strategy that balances reducing
> danger and broadening opportunity. Accordingly,
> the question for New Delhi should have been
> how to use this lucrative deal to beef up India's
> strategic options. Thus, it is probably a strategic
> blunder to narrowly focus on technical
> specifications and capabilities alone, as many
> proponents of the IAF's choice have done.
> A decision of this magnitude should have been
> filtered through three key parameters: strategic,
> operational and tactical. A pragmatic strategy
> would have been to analyse the risk and
> opportunity through these three parameters and
> then make the final decision about which of the
> fighter plane choices would have best advanced
> Indian security. In strategic and geopolitical
> terms, France can provide little help to India in
> either Asia or in the global theatre. While France
> has always been a well-wisher, it has never had
> much capacity to help India. For example, though
> France wanted to sell India nuclear reactors, it
> could do little to change the nuclear non-
> proliferation rules that prevented it from doing so.
> It took Washington to change these rules to
> India's benefit.
> Additionally, numbers (of aircraft India could
> acquire) and cost should have been factored in.
> Buying fewer but more expensive aircraft might
> make some fighter jocks happy, but having
> greater numbers might be more relevant to a
> country like India which faces a two-front threat
> from China and Pakistan. It was often argued in
> the MMRCA debate that maintaining air superiority
> required technological superiority, range and
> payload but an equally important consideration is
> that of numbers.
> Numerical superiority in India's regional context is
> of particular significance given that the current
> strength of India's fighter jets is only around 600,
> and unless replenished, it will reach critically low
> numbers soon. Meanwhile, both Beijing and
> Islamabad have been augmenting their fighter
> fleets. India could have procured far greater
> numbers of fighters with the US or Russian
> option.
> Though the probability of a two-front war is low,
> no pragmatic Indian strategic decision-maker
> should rule it out. Indeed, it is precisely for this
> reason that the Indian army is raising new forces
> to deploy on the China border. It is unclear if the
> technological superiority of the Rafale is so great
> as to compensate for the smaller numbers that
> India will have to settle for.
> Cost should have also had an important role in
> the MMRCA decision. India's decision to go for
> Rafale is going to cost New Delhi around $20
> billion, if not more. Opting for a Russian or US jet
> would have been far cheaper. The Russian option
> would have been the least expensive whereas the
> American fighters would have been somewhere
> in the middle with the European jets being the
> most expensive. In overall terms, the American
> F-18s would have been the best given that they
> (as well as the F-16s) came with the second-
> generation AESA radars.
> Lastly, the most important consideration should
> have been the strategic benefits that accrue to
> India through this deal. Indian decision-makers
> should have been mindful of the fact that this deal
> was as much about making strategic investments
> in a relationship as simply buying fighters. India
> does not enjoy a benign neighbourhood, and
> these security needs are important. But India also
> needs to balance these with its requirements as a
> rising power, which means having capable
> friends. The MMRCA deal was a great opportunity
> to consolidate its strategic ties with either Russia
> or the US, or even with both. Instead, New Delhi
> has ended up antagonising both of them.
> The standard response that India has signed
> many other defence contracts with both Russia
> and the US does not wash because this was a
> very different and high-profile deal which was
> closely watched around the world. Signing
> smaller deals, even if they add up to significant
> amounts, does not have the same weight as the
> MMRCA deal. New Delhi needs to be more careful
> in both understanding strategic moments and
> being able to exploit them if it wants to sit at the
> global high table.



this article is nothing but full of crap


----------



## peep

vijayjha said:


> this article is nothing but full of crap



add to that the crappy presentation. 

praveen007: Bro, plz don't post articles in such a crapped up format plz. thanks !!


----------



## praveen007

Yaar som time my cell seems to play trick while posting.
.

---------- Post added at 08:43 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:43 AM ----------

*Landing Gear differences in the Rafale C (air force variant) and the Rafale M (naval variant)*





++
*Rafale C landing gear*




++
*Rafale M landing gear*




++
*Rafale B with Rafale M stationed together*

Reactions: Like Like:
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## sudhir007

The forces behind Dassault

India&#8217;s lucrative and long-running medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) competition took an important step forward recently with the announcement that India will now enter into exclusive negotiations with French contractor Dassault for its Rafale. This is a major blow for the other major contender, the Eurofighter Typhoon, the product of a consortium of the major aerospace companies of four partner nations: Germany, UK, Italy, and Spain. The Eurofighter group had been convinced that they were offering the technically superior aircraft, and the Typhoon certainly performed better in competitive trials in 2010. But as everyone who follows defence sales knows, selling fighter planes is not necessarily about having the better product.

Indian analyses have focused on explaining the latest decision largely on the basis of costs. It is true that concerns over its price tag have dogged the expensive Eurofighter Typhoon from the outset. But this explanation is a little too convenient in the complex world of arms sales, where other issues including technology transfers, the possibility of joint production, and political partnerships all play a role in influencing the decision-making process. Providing they are not too far apart (and the bids submitted by Dassault and Eurofighter would not have been), costs can be altered to suit a strategic choice. Small adjustments to factors such as payloads carried and distances flown on hypothetical sorties can make a big difference. And taking total life-cycle costs into account has proved a complicated, difficult and possibly contestable process.

If not simply cost, a further explanation is required for India&#8217;s choice. Dassault may have shown more flexibility over matters of technological transfer than Cassidian, the EADS subsidiary that led on the Eurofighter bid. But Cassidian certainly tried its best to suggest otherwise, opening the first foreign-operated defence-oriented engineering centre in India last year. Another criterion may have been greater political benefits. But it is unclear whether a single partner is more attractive than several European partners who have combined to make Eurofighter the continent&#8217;s largest collaborative military programme.

In part, the decision could have related to lobbying, although not of the sinister kind being whispered about in many Delhi salons. Simply speaking, the French government was more politically active, particularly when compared to the more low-key approach of Germany, which acted as the lead nation of the Eurofighter bid. Germany&#8217;s defence industries have never enjoyed the level of political support experienced by their French counterparts. In Germany, a &#8220;war room&#8221; &#8212; like that assembled by French President Nicolas Sarkozy to coordinate his defence, finance, and foreign ministries in support of Dassault&#8217;s search for its first foreign buyer &#8212; would have been unimaginable. While lobbying may not have made a difference in this particular case, greater political support for a major defence contract generally translates into a more flexible approach in linking it to other incentives in the defence or non-defence realms.

Keeping the debate focused on the aircraft&#8217; costs does, however, play to India&#8217;s advantage as negotiations now enter a new, exclusive, phase. After all, as both suppliers know, this is not a final decision. Protracted negotiations between Dassault and the MoD can be expected over the coming months. India will want to extract the maximum concessions possible and hinting periodically that Eurofighter are not entirely out of the running will do it no harm. Meanwhile, Dassault knows only too well from prior experience that exclusive negotiations can always break down and decisions can be reversed. Only late last year, the UAE stepped back from its exclusive talks on buying the Rafale to ask the Eurofighter consortium to make a counter offer.

The latest decision is an important one for India. But it is also an important one for France. If this deal goes ahead, the Rafale&#8217;s future, which had been in question, looks assured. The multi-billion dollar deal also offers the prospect of a vital economic boost for French President Nicolas Sarkozy as he prepares for a difficult re-election campaign. Now that the French are the frontrunners, they cannot afford to lose this tender. New Delhi will know this, and will be hoping to use it to its advantage.

Sarah Raine is a non-resident fellow with the German Marshall Fund of the United States (GMF) in Berlin and a consulting research fellow with IISS. Dhruva Jaishankar is programme officer for Asia at GMF in Washington


----------



## Bl[i]tZ

ironwarrier said:


> "The French Rafale jet, the eventual winner, beat the Typhoon hollow both in terms of life cycle costs and direct acquisition costs. The entire MMRCA project cost would have gone up by around Rs 25,000 crore if Typhoon had been selected over Rafale," a top defence ministry source said on Thursday.
> 
> "The fact is that the cost deferential between Typhoon and Rafale was very high... it would cost India around 22% to 25% more if the former had been selected. No government can agree to so much extra," the source said.
> 
> IAF fighter deal: Rafale much cheaper than Typhoon; govt rules out review - The Economic Times



Guys, the govt says that if they selected Typhoon cost would have gone up 25k crore and they also say that this is 22-25%. That means that Dassault Rafale quoted 100k crore. and EF Typhoon 122/125k crore.

That's staggering $20 billion dollars for Rafale. Well, atleast $10 billion will be invested by the French back as offsets into Indian defense industry.


----------



## rockstarIN

Rafale price got sweetened by the same Indian money for Mirage & MICA deal...


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## 帅的一匹

vijayjha said:


> selecting Rafale has another strategic advantage , its arch rival Pakistan wont be able to get any other plane out of five (except F16) . Euro-fighter is too expensive for Pakistan , Rafale is out of PAF's equation now , Gripen will be banned by USA as it uses lot of american components and F18 is out of PAF's league .
> so basically selecting Rafale will leave Pakistan with only option of Chinese toys thus giving IAF clear edge over PAF .


J10b is good enough to take on Rafale ,no need for PAF to worry about.


----------



## peep

wanglaokan said:


> J10b is good enough to take on Rafale ,no need for PAF to worry about.


No offence but plz don't post like a fanboy. Either support your claim or shut up.

J10B has not even matured as a concept while Rafale has been flying high from 1998. IMO, rafale can trump j10B any time day or night.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## 帅的一匹

peep said:


> No offence but plz don't post like a fanboy. Either support your claim or shut up.
> 
> J10B has not even matured as a concept while Rafale has been flying high from 1998. IMO, rafale can trump j10B any time day or night.


Don't bet too much stakes on Rafale, you don't get it yet. On which ground you say Rafale can trump j10b any time? Claim or shut up.


----------



## praveen007

wanglaokan said:


> Don't bet too much stakes on Rafale, you don't get it yet. On which ground you say Rafale can trump j10b any time? Claim or shut up.


.
.
on the specs of both plane avilable in open source, plus the quality of avionics in the plane also say a lot .
So follow my advise and provide your resoning of how Rafale is not better or jus SHUT-UP.


----------



## 帅的一匹

praveen007 said:


> .
> .
> on the specs of both plane avilable in open source, plus the quality of avionics in the plane also say a lot .
> So follow my advise and provide your resoning of how Rafale is not better or jus SHUT-UP.


J10b is equal to rafale. More important, it is cheaper for production and maintenance. Rafale got no edges when it face j10 in the air combat.


----------



## Tija

wanglaokan said:


> Don't bet too much stakes on Rafale, you don't get it yet. On which ground you say Rafale can trump j10b any time? Claim or shut up.


 
Then why you still inducting su-30MKK, SU-30MK2, N J11 ?


----------



## anniyan

praveen007 said:


> ++
> *Rafale C landing gear*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ++
> *Rafale M landing gear*



Hey rafale uses MICHELIN tyres...cool

Already michelin is constructing a 2.26 billion $ plant in India and scheduled to open in March 2012

SOURCE


----------



## 帅的一匹

Tija said:


> Then why you still inducting su-30MKK, SU-30MK2, N J11 ?


Su-30 is more like air to ground superior, We need it in our inventory. J10b is inferior to Rafale on air to ground capacity but better at air combat. J10A is always shooing su-27 flanker down in the PLAAF practice.


----------



## kingkobra

Tija said:


> Really rejected  Bhai sidhey sidhey bolo na auwkat se baahar hai aur aagar kharid lete to diwala nikal gaya hota aab tak .



you don't need to reply him in his words,unless you are here to get banned too 
just report him and lets move on

Reactions: Like Like:
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## praveen007

Azmal said:


> kutte was meant for whole India....stop the weapon purchase i warn you


.
Forget it .
Mods had taken care of this idiot.


----------



## drunken-monke

Please do not reply to azmal... Where are the mods??


----------



## Azmal

sorry if i hurt you...but your govt should stop weapon purchae for peace......or else face some action


----------



## drunken-monke

Can you ask your government to stop purchase of Jf 17 or J10B? When you have the answer please then ask us not to purchase weapons...


----------



## Tshering22

Azmal said:


> kutte was meant for whole India....stop the weapon purchase i warn you



What a shame, you are disrespecting the rules of your own country's prestigious forum...


----------



## Skull and Bones

Ye kisne aapna baccha yaha chorke gaya, le ke jao.



Azmal said:


> sorry if i hurt you...but your govt should stop weapon purchae for peace......or else face some action



Ja bacche, side me jakar khel. Mummy ne nahi bataya ke anjaan uncles and aunties se baat nahi karte?

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Tshering22

wanglaokan said:


> J10b is good enough to take on Rafale ,no need for PAF to worry about.



We shall see that..

---------- Post added at 08:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:22 PM ----------

Advantage Rafale in Brazil and UAE after India's selection

Brazil almost declared Rafale as the winner and UAE almost signed the contract for the Rafale , but for some strange reasons both talks and negotiations fell flat on ground , experts believe that both UAE and Brazil were waiting for Indian result , to ride on the huge order which India will place .

Brazil has requirement of 36 aircrafts but follow up orders may go up to 80 aircrafts and UAE has requirements of 60 aircrafts and Indian contract almost on verge of been sealed 126 aircrafts which India may order and later follow up orders of more 80 aircrafts may take place end of this decade ,will make the Rafale export success too .

Brazil was in touch with Indian air force and Ministry of defense of India through out the selection process of MMRCA and have asked India to provide documents related to Rafale bids to Brazil , after India selected them , UAE is also considering sending a team of defense personnel to study the Indian deal and have already restarted negotiations with the french firm .

With Indian order in the bag almost and if French can pull Brazilian and UAE order too then Rafale not only be a success story but also out sale Eurofigther, since both Indian (up to 200), Brazilian (up to 80) and UAE (60) along with 200 ordered by French military will make it a export success too .

The Rafales selection by India, which came at the end of a vigorous and transparent selection process has boosted the French Jets prospects in Brazil. In 2009, Brazilian President Luis Inacio Lula da Silva had expressed his interest in the French Rafale and was quoted as saying he wanted to award the multi-billion dollar contract to France. However, subsequent political pressures by lobbies close rival aircraft manufacturers in the U.S. and Europe led the deal to be put on hold.


----------



## praveen007

ok friends back to topic.
.
*The $20 Billion Dogfight for an Indian Air Force Contract | idrw.org
++
.
The $20 Billion Dogfight for an Indian Air Force Contract
.
SOURCE : WALL STREET DAILY* 
It flies at over 1,500 miles per hour and has been called the complete combat aircraft. But India doesn&#8217;t want it.
The consortium behind the Eurofighter, Typhoon, was ready for take off last month on an air defense contract worth $20 billion.
That was until French company, Dassault, swooped in and beat them to it, winning the chance to sell 126 of their Rafale aircrafts.
But the consortium &#8211; made up of the German and Spanish branches of EADS, Britain&#8217;s BAE Systems, and Italy&#8217;s Finmeccanica &#8211; haven&#8217;t yet had their hopes grounded.
This week, BAE&#8217;s CEO, Ian King, said &#8220;all options are still on the table,&#8221; suggesting the price for the Eurofighter contract may come down.
IHS Jane&#8217;s consultant, Endre Lunde, says France may still have the edge, with the transfer of nuclear technology between them and India perhaps the most crucial part of the deal: *&#8220;France, with its experience in this field, could be very important to them in terms of helping to develop that technology, developing that capability and not least building this in India. So both on a civilian side and a defense side, I think there&#8217;s significant potential to develop the relationship between India and France further.&#8221;*

Precedent is not on the French side however.
The Rafale has lost a series of contests to U.S. competition, while in 2009 French President
Nicolas Sarkozy prematurely announced that a sale of Rafales to Brazil was imminent, only to see talks drag on for another two years. Lunde says: *France has been close before and it hasn&#8217;t turned out in the end, one example being the UAE, which was predicted to be a customer of the Rafale. That fell through and it&#8217;s now in negotiations with the Eurofighter.&#8221;*
So although the French may have India&#8217;s fighter
contract in its sights, the dogfight over who will
ultimately prevail could produce more twists.


----------



## drunken-monke

Don't worry guyz.. Our mods have turned the colour of Azmal's name pink.. thanks to them..


----------



## kaykay

*44 facts about the MMRCA*

1. French naval Rafales were once &#8216;nailed to the ground&#8217; after a virus infection. 

2. Eurofighter came across as cheaper than Gripen In Austria on the basis of its payment plan.

3. Some believed that the selection of the GE414 engine for LCA over Eurojet meant Gripen, F/A-18 had an edge in the MMRCA.

4. Contrary to popular belief, the MMRCA tender process was not completely spotless. 

5. Boeing offered more power for the F/A-18 SuperHornet it offered for the contest.

6. The previous IAF chief, Air Chief Marshal Pradeep Vasant Naik, apprehended graft complaints by the losers to the Chief Vigilance Commissioner. 

7. The Eurofighter is the only aircraft of the MMRCA-6 that has never given a back-seat ride to any Indian.

8. Only the MiG-35 has never been in a combat operation, after Libya 2011.

9. How long to sign on the Rafale? IAF Mirage-2000 upgrade took 5 years to bargain to USD 2.4 B & USD 1.23 B for MICA missiles.

10. Normally, the Ministry of Defense sends loser the letter and calls winner in for a chat. In the case of the MMRCA, it was the reverse.

11. The F-16 aircraft has a really stiff joystick on the left side of the seat.

12. All you TopGun fans, that fighter was the F-14. Tomcat pilots initially hated the idea of converting to Hornets.

13. The F-16 is flown by 24 other countries. 25, now, with the Iraqi order.

14. Even after selection of Rafale, all 5 other aircraft cos wait with curiosity. Yes they do. Context. 

15. The math for comparing the bids of Rafale & Eurofighter was completed by the 1st week of Dec 2011.

16. The contest is governed by 2006 rules, though rules were last updated in Jan 2011 | StratPost 

17. Indian security minsters group can disregard the lowest bid and award the contract for strategic reasons. 

18. Rafale won only because Eurofighter was the only other aircraft shortlisted.

19. Gripen replaced MiG-21 in the Czech Republic and Eurofighter replaced MiG-29 in Germany (brought about to replace the F-4).

20. In theory, this is how Gripen would operate off public roads.

21. Gripen only aircraft built by UN Security Council non-member, hence claimed to be free of political considerations.

22. Proof of concept: F/A-18 can operate off public roads too.

23. Only F/A-18 SuperHornet & F-16IN of the six aircraft satisfy the key IAF requirement of an operational AESA radar.

24. The F-16IN had the single most powerful engine of all 6 aircraft in the competition. 

25. F/A-18 Super Hornet was accused of being underpowered, inspite of having offered a more powerful engine.

26. Rafale pissed off the UAE last year when a newspaper owned by Dassault said Israel provided it security assistance. 

27. Rafale lost to F-16 in Morocco and Sarkozy said &#8216;the better aircraft won&#8217; (see Wikileaks). 

28. India will be the first and largest export customer for the Rafale if the contract is signed. 

29. Rafale was once thrown out of the contest. 

30. At the time of being kicked out, the excuse given was Rafale had low thrust to weight ratio . 

31. Eurofighter&#8217;s left wing built in Italy, right in Spain & fuselage divided between UK & Germany.

32. Four of the six aircraft also made offers to Indian Navy, even though only 2 of them were carrier capable. F-35 JSF also pitched. 

33. Eurofighter and Gripen offered Indian Navy a carrier-borne naval concept. F/A-18 SuperHornet & Rafale were other two.

34. The 4 aircraft ejected from the contest have only recently begun having their bid documentation returned to them.

35. IAF considered a total of 643 parameters to test the six aircraft in field evaluation trials. 

36. Four of the six aircraft were ejected from the contest exactly the day before their commercial bids were to expire.

37. The contest saw lost files & attempted bribery at the Bangalore Air Show, AeroIndia. 

38. The last US ambassador to India resigned the day after both the two US aircraft were ejected.

39. The F-35 JSF is waiting in the wings it it doesn&#8217;t work out. Kinda: US offers India the JSF. 

40. Rules require MMRCA winner to plow back 50% of the order value into Indian industry.

41. The cost of the Rafale and Eurofighter was evaluated from the exchange rate at the Parliament Street branch of the State Bank of India in New Delhi. 

42. Dassault stock rose 22% when the Rafale was announced L1, but could practically benefit only stockholders with 3.13% share. 

43. EADS, one of the parent companies of the Eurofighter, owns 46% of Dassault, the manufacturer of the Rafale.

44. This contest tested all six aircraft by requiring them to land and take off from the highest altitude, ever.

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## Gra_Vity

If France and Israel materials tech used for AMCA that could be better tech for AMCA. However if this plane shall going to test in 2016-17 Better to have Graphene use for allElectronics andAvionics RadarsAnd airframes.


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## Abingdonboy

Interesting points, just a few things:



> Eurofighter came across as cheaper than Gripen In Austria on the basis of its payment plan.



The EFT also came out cheaper in that particular contest because the demands of the a/c by Austria were significantly less- AESA, supercruise, weapons suite and many other things were not key requirments in Austrian competition. Hence EADS offered a cheaper bid with less tech on offer.



> 5. Boeing offered more power for the F/A-18 SuperHornet it offered for the contest.



irrelevant, the IAF constantly stated they would only ***** the a/c they were presented with and and allowed to test not any bids after, otherwise the process would never end! Another disadvantage for the Gripen- they brought older Gripen-D versions to India and some, limited, testing of NG was done by IAF in Sweden.



> 9. How long to sign on the Rafale? IAF Mirage-2000 upgrade took 5 years to bargain to USD 2.4 B & USD 1.23 B for MICA missiles.



This is not the fault of the French, typical MoD/GoI bureaucratic nonsense. Similarly BAE (major partner in EFT) Hawk deal took almost 2 decades to come to fruition. 



> 18. Rafale won only because Eurofighter was the only other aircraft shortlisted.



Not true, the EFT and Rafale already won, to some extent, in Aprill 2011 during down-select as this decision was taken on purely TECHNICAL grounds so the Rafale in turn had already beaten those 4 candidates and then finally beat EFT on price and "sweeteners" Dassualt offered, not to mention IAF's inherent bias towards it.




> 21. Gripen only aircraft built by UN Security Council non-member, hence claimed to be free of political considerations.



Engine and most of the avionics are made in US (a member of UNSC!) not to mention many subsystems. So point is utterly irrelevant. Additionally it is said the joint Israeli-AESA offer was halted due to US pressure. Free from political consideration my arse. 



> 30. At the time of being kicked out, the excuse given was Rafale had low thrust to weight ratio .



The eventual Rafale IAF will get will have SNEMCA's latest engine- M88-3 which produces 90KN of thrust.



> 23. Only F/A-18 SuperHornet & F-16IN of the six aircraft satisfy the key IAF requirement of an operational AESA radar.


Irrelevant as US was offering VERY little TOT on AESA radars (key requirement) and by the time Rafale will enter service in 2014015 with IAF it will have an AESA radar. The requirement was to have an operational AESA radar by the time the platform entered service which I'm sure all 6 would have been able to do.



> 34. The 4 aircraft ejected from the contest have only recently begun having their bid documentation returned to them.



These are MoD rules that state this can only happen when L1 competitor has been established. Otherwise returning the bids to the companies could affect the program.




Good read all the same!


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## Gra_Vity

=kaykay;2584718]*44 facts about the MMRCA*

1. French naval Rafales were once &#8216;nailed to the ground&#8217; after a virus infection. 

- Virus Infection to the plane?

2. Eurofighter came across as cheaper than Gripen In Austria on the basis of its payment plan.

-Austria is European nation and better relation with european four countries how they give such benifit to india. Moreover there is no such proposal for India.

3. Some believed that the selection of the GE414 engine for LCA over Eurojet meant Gripen, F/A-18 had an edge in the MMRCA.

Explain

4. Contrary to popular belief, the MMRCA tender process was not completely spotless. 

Explain

5. Boeing offered more power for the F/A-18 SuperHornet it offered for the contest.

American strategy not suitable. Do u forget ban due to nuke test what about TOT. We have no complete info. Cant believe claim.

6. The previous IAF chief, Air Chief Marshal Pradeep Vasant Naik, apprehended graft complaints by the losers to the Chief Vigilance Commissioner. 

How they dare to do that? Kick them for any project. yet no complaint made by anyone.

7. The Eurofighter is the only aircraft of the MMRCA-6 that has never given a back-seat ride to any Indian.

Humh.....

8. Only the MiG-35 has never been in a combat operation, after Libya 2011.

Humh..

9. How long to sign on the Rafale? IAF Mirage-2000 upgrade took 5 years to bargain to USD 2.4 B & USD 1.23 B for MICA missiles.

Scedule is there no negotiation big contract more money bid already given no apprehension.

10. Normally, the Ministry of Defense sends loser the letter and calls winner in for a chat. In the case of the MMRCA, it was the reverse.

Explain

11. The F-16 aircraft has a really stiff joystick on the left side of the seat.

12. All you TopGun fans, that fighter was the F-14. Tomcat pilots initially hated the idea of converting to Hornets.

13. The F-16 is flown by 24 other countries. 25, now, with the Iraqi order.

14. Even after selection of Rafale, all 5 other aircraft cos wait with curiosity. Yes they do. Context. 

15. The math for comparing the bids of Rafale & Eurofighter was completed by the 1st week of Dec 2011.

Other parameters and goverernment sanctions r necessary. Gov reports not one day work many things required to do.

16. The contest is governed by 2006 rules, though rules were last updated in Jan 2011 | StratPost 

Good for whom?

17. Indian security minsters group can disregard the lowest bid and award the contract for strategic reasons. 

No claim. Rafale bid was less if i m not mistaking 

18. Rafale won only because Eurofighter was the only other aircraft shortlisted.

Common man Rafale defeated other 4 aircraft too

19. Gripen replaced MiG-21 in the Czech Republic and Eurofighter replaced MiG-29 in Germany (brought about to replace the F-4).

LCA will replace Mig 21.

20. In theory, this is how Gripen would operate off public roads.
Better Aircraft LCA must have such capabilities.

21. Gripen only aircraft built by UN Security Council non-member, hence claimed to be free of political considerations.

How its concluded. Boforce were from Sweden. France always support even on nuclear test too.

22. Proof of concept: F/A-18 can operate off public roads too.

Source buddy.

23. Only F/A-18 SuperHornet & F-16IN of the six aircraft satisfy the key IAF requirement of an operational AESA radar.

No Info

24. The F-16IN had the single most powerful engine of all 6 aircraft in the competition. 

We have double engine fighter incase of one engine failed not craft loss.
Pak piloots have advantage on f 16 yrs of experience.

25. F/A-18 Super Hornet was accused of being underpowered, inspite of having offered a more powerful engine.

There was competition final exam not a tution test. Usa later on cry to offer f-35 too. But after exam u reember every thing of paper.

26. Rafale pissed off the UAE last year when a newspaper owned by Dassault said Israel provided it security assistance. 

27. Rafale lost to F-16 in Morocco and Sarkozy said &#8216;the better aircraft won&#8217; (see Wikileaks). 

Mig 21 won over us fighters in air exercises between us and india. The news were second world war plane win over the us fighters. If i m not mmistaking.

28. India will be the first and largest export customer for the Rafale if the contract is signed. 

YEAH thats True

29. Rafale was once thrown out of the contest. 

Source

30. At the time of being kicked out, the excuse given was Rafale had low thrust to weight ratio . 

Source

31. Eurofighter&#8217;s left wing built in Italy, right in Spain & fuselage divided between UK & Germany.

This is Great fighter


32. Four of the six aircraft also made offers to Indian Navy, even though only 2 of them were carrier capable. F-35 JSF also pitched. 
Humm...the advantage once airforce select a fighter also may be by navy for advantages

33. Eurofighter and Gripen offered Indian Navy a carrier-borne naval concept. F/A-18 SuperHornet & Rafale were other two.
Totally Four

34. The 4 aircraft ejected from the contest have only recently begun having their bid documentation returned to them.

What?

35. IAF considered a total of 643 parameters to test the six aircraft in field evaluation trials. 

Which r they plz tell me.instead these points

36. Four of the six aircraft were ejected from the contest exactly the day before their commercial bids were to expire.

Humm..

37. The contest saw lost files & attempted bribery at the Bangalore Air Show, AeroIndia. 
Garbage slum dog millionaire. Dont know they r Aryans not slave dog og english or white.

38. The last US ambassador to India resigned the day after both the two US aircraft were ejected.
What rubbish
t
39. The F-35 JSF is waiting in the wings it it doesn&#8217;t work out. Kinda: US offers India the JSF. 

40. Rules require MMRCA winner to plow back 50% of the order value into Indian industry.
And out of that 50% 80% to be deposited in swiss banks in_____________accounts.

41. The cost of the Rafale and Eurofighter was evaluated from the exchange rate at the Parliament Street branch of the State Bank of India in New Delhi. 
Wow...

42. Dassault stock rose 22% when the Rafale was announced L1, but could practically benefit only stockholders with 3.13% share. 
Always

43. EADS, one of the parent companies of the Eurofighter, owns 46% of Dassault, the manufacturer of the Rafale.
Wow...why hue and cry by britons.

44. This contest tested all six aircraft by requiring them to land and take off from the highest altitude, ever
Ok.......


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## praveen007

*Google Translate*
++





.
*'C'est ça'
.
BRASILIA - After so many comings and goings, the government is finally hitting the hammer in favor of the Rafale, the French Dassault, to renew its fleet of FAB. The notice must be in the first half, but only after May 6, when the second round of presidential elections in France.
The final push was India's decision to buy 126 Rafale, Dassault taking the choke. It is the first international order your jet, so far restricted itself to the French Air Force (sic). With production scale, the price of the planes also tends to fall in business with Brazil, emptying one of the major constraints to them: the cost of the product and especially maintenance.*
Following the announcement of the deal with the French Indians, Celso Amorim (Defense) was coincidentally in India, in a statement citing the victory of Dassault and noting that 108 of 126 fighters "will be built in the country [India], with technology transfer ". The term "technology transfer" is a mantra dragged FX-2 program, the purchase of aircraft.
Lula was with pen in hand twice to sign the contract with the French. At first, fell after the embarrassment of announcing the option before the completion of the technical report of the FAB.
At second, when the sheet of report published the result with the Swedish Gripen first, the F-18 in U.S. Rafale second and third and last.
By assuming, Dilma used good argument for cutting the budget study business. The victory of the Gripen in FAB has been considered and the F-18 returned to the wheel. But during one year, crystallized two certainties in government: 1) the Gripen is just a project and Sweden has zero political weight, 2) it is impossible to trust the promise of technology transfer from the U.S., subject to the mood of Congress and alternation
of power.
Everything indicates that the Rafale coming.

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## praveen007

*here is one more artical that proves EFT is more costly.
Even costler then F-35.
.
.
Italy buys its first three F-35s. With a shocking announcement: &#8220;a JSF will cost less than a Eurofighter Typhoon&#8221; « The Aviationist
++
.
Italy buys its first three F-35s.
With a shocking announcement: &#8220;a JSF will cost less than a Eurofighter Typhoon&#8221;
.
.*
On Feb. 7, 2012, *Gen. Claudio Debertolis, head of the agency that Is responsible for the procurement of new armaments, has announced that Italy has already ordered the first three Lockheed Martin F-35s.
.
Unit price: 80 million USD.*
.
Talking to the lower house&#8217;s defense commitee, Debertolis explained *that these first planes will cost more than the rest of the fleet since costs are going to decrease as the program, currently in Low Rate Initial Production*, continues. The Italian high rank officer is particularly optimistic, as *he believes that the unit price will be around 70 million each (Lockheed Martin estimates 65M USD for the F-35A and about 73M USD for the F-35B), less than the 79 million USD currently paid for the Eurofighter Typhoon and much less of the 121 million USD per aircraft anticipated in 2011.
Quite surprising, since unit price is one of the JSF partner&#8217;s main concern, but possible, considering also that the Typhoon has just lost India&#8217;s mother of all tenders based on price.*
Although there&#8217;s no official commitment yet, the initial requirement for Italy foresaw 131 examples (69 conventional take-off and landing F-35As and 62 of the short take-off and vertical landing variant F-35Bs). Debertolis confirmed that determining how many aircraft Italy will purchase is not a current task, since it will depend on the Defense Budget Review. Nevertheless, even if the number of aircraft will be much lower than the initial 131, the MoD will work to make sure that the industry will get the expected compensation.
Italy is working on stretching deliveries and slowing purchase &#8220;a much easier task than that with the Eurofighter program, since the F-35 procurement is modular therefore delays don&#8217;t imply increasing costs&#8221; Debertolis said.
Furthermore with the recent Eurofighter defeat in India, Italy is going to stop working on the
Typhoon and &#8220;divert&#8221; part (if not all) of its workforce towards the F-35, being assembled at the Cameri FACO (Final Assembly and Check Out) facility. 
Finally, Debertolis has confirmed that Italy will have both A and B variants, with the STOVL (Short Take Off Vertical Landing) ones serving both the Air Force and the Navy, that will use them on the Cavour aircraft carrier.
In spite of the widespread criticism surrounding the program and the global financial crisis it looks like the F-35 has, if not a bright future ahead, at least good chances to survive the austerity measures of the new Monti&#8217;s technocratic cabinet.


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## sancho

wanglaokan said:


> *On which ground you say Rafale can trump j10b any time? Claim or shut up*.



I guess the same does apply to your claims about J10B as well isn't it? There are still confusions if it gets PESA or AESA radar and you claim it will be better? 
I think J10B can be a very good fighter and possibly even the biggest threat of IAF in this decade, but so far waaaay to less is known about it to compare it to Rafale F3+ or EF T3B. Rafale so far has the clear advantage on AESA ready developed, SC capable, advanced passive features already operational and beeing upgraded in the new version, most likely the higher TWR and the lower wingloading + the MICA IR / METEOR combo in BVR. And these are things that we know till now, so unless you can provide credible sources for specs of J10B that shows better capabilities like these, it's hard to prove any superioirity of J10B, except of cost maybe, but even that is just speculated so far.

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## sudhir007

The Rafale's long flight to India
*The selection of Dassault?s Rafale as India?s new MMRCA fighter was only the latest step in the Air Force?s long and painstaking process to pick itself a winner *

Long after the streets emptied that chilly winter evening in December 1981, lights were burning on the fifth floor of Vayu Bhavan in the elite Operations Branch of the Indian Air Force. Worrying the brightest thinkers of IAF was a brash new arrival in the subcontinental skies. The US had just announced the sale of 40 F-16 fighters to Pakistan, giving the Pakistan Fiza&#8217;ya (as the Pakistan Air Force styles itself) a fighter potent, fast and agile enough to upset the air power balance in the subcontinent. That F-16 purchase unleashed a set of Indian reactions that culminated in last week&#8217;s decision to negotiate with French Dassault Aviation for 126 Rafale medium multi-role combat aircraft, MMRCA for short.

India moved quickly to counter the F-16 with the Mirage 2000 and MiG-29 fighters. Soon after Squadron Leader Shahid Javed landed Pakistan&#8217;s first F-16 at Sargodha Air Base on January 15, 1983, New Delhi signed a contract with Dassault for 49 Mirage 2000s. IAF pilots began training in France, and in 1985 the first Mirage 2000s joined the IAF fleet. This was South Asia&#8217;s first true &#8220;multi-role&#8221; fighter, good for strike missions, electronic warfare support, and also fast and manoeuvrable enough for air-to-air combat. From the outset, IAF pilots relished the Mirage 2000 as well as the relationship with Dassault.

Rajan Bhasin, then a young flight lieutenant and later one of IAF&#8217;s top guns, was in the first batch of eight pilots who went to France in 1984 to learn how to fly the Mirage 2000. He recalls, &#8220;The Mirage 2000 was a superb fighter. And the relationship with Dassault was always completely professional. We got the fighter we paid for; and we got the training we paid for. Whatever we wanted extra, we had to pay for it. But Dassault did not cheat.&#8221;

By 1987 PAF had inducted all 40 F-16s that it had contracted for and, in 1988, Pakistan ordered and paid for another 11 F-16 fighters. But though alarm bells were ringing in New Delhi and IAF was keen to order more Mirage 2000s under an options clause in the contract, it did not do so. The purchase of the Russian MiG-29, reputedly an &#8220;F-16 buster&#8221; due to its prowess in air-to-air combat, had left no space for more Mirage 2000s.

But IAF&#8217;s enthusiasm for Dassault fighters still burned bright, especially after the Mirage 2000 demonstrated its ability to strike almost invisible Pakistani positions on the knife-edged ridges above Kargil in 1999. At the turn of the century &#8212; with the early-model MiG-21s rapidly becoming obsolete, and with their replacement, the indigenous Tejas Light Combat Aircraft still to take to the air (it first flew only in 2001) &#8212; IAF formally asked the defence ministry to buy and shift to India the entire Mirage 2000 production line that Dassault was closing down. This would allow Hindustan Aeronautics Limited to build the improved Mirage 2000-5 to replace the vintage MiG-21s. With Dassault shifting production to the new-generation Rafale fighter, France was willing to sell India the Mirage 2000 line.

&#8220;IAF told the ministry that we wanted aircraft with which we were familiar. That was the Mirage 2000, and we wanted the latest version: the Mirage 2000-5. As an air force we were very familiar and comfortable with the operational and tactical handling of the Mirage 2000,&#8221; says Air Marshal (retired) Pranab Kumar Barbora who was Vice-chief of Air Staff till 2010.

But the ministry, stung by the Tehelka expose on corruption in defence procurement, feared that a single-vendor buy from Dassault might be criticised as arbitrary. Pointing out that IAF had not availed of an &#8220;options clause&#8221; in the 1983 contract for Mirage 2000 fighters, George Fernandes&#8217;s defence ministry asked IAF to float a global tender for the very best fighter that could be bought from the international market.

Another reason for a new global tender was the fear that the Mirage 2000-5 might no longer be good enough. With the American dependence on Pakistan growing due to the war in Afghanistan, it seemed likely that at least two more squadrons of F-16s would soon join PAF. These would be the formidable Block 50/52 fighters with greatly improved radars and weaponry. And PAF was also slated to get a brand new fleet of over 200 Chinese JF 17 Thunder light fighters.

Maker Fighter Good and bad
Lockheed Martin *F-16IN Super Viper* Better avionics and weaponry than any other F-16 sold before

Boeing *F/A-18 Super Hornet* A customised variant with high-level aircrew situational awareness rejected in favour of the Typhoon and Rafale

Eurofighter GmbH *Typhoon * Its production was expected to create thousands of jobs in India and Europe

Dassault *Rafale* Dassault's old Mirage 2000 is a favourite of IAF pilots

Saab * Gripen NG * Still in the future

Russia * MiG-35* Left the race in April 2011

Even more alarming was China&#8217;s weapons and infrastructure buildup in Tibet. The old J-7 and J-8 fighters, which IAF could comfortably handle, were now being replaced by a fleet of Russian Sukhoi-27/30 fighters, and the Chinese j-10, which reportedly fields advanced avionics bought from Israel. Suddenly the dragon had an improved military airfield network in Tibet with extended runways and modernised facilities.

*&#8220;We needed to boost our fighter fleet really, really, urgently,&#8221; says a serving Air Marshal who prefers to remain anonymous. &#8220;And we were determined to implement an acquisition process which nobody in the ministry could fault or delay. Today, the IAF process has become the gold standard for fighter aircraft acquisitions worldwide. The Brazilian defence minister, who visited Delhi this week, has asked us to share details with his ministry on just how we did it.&#8221;*

* * * * *

It began with the drawing up of specifications in Vayu Bhavan that demanded not the best available fighter in the world, but a fighter so good that it didn&#8217;t yet exist. The IAF specifications included: superb aerodynamic performance; the most advanced AESA (active electronically scanned array) radar that would allow the aircraft to detect and fire missiles before an enemy fighter realised that he was in the crosshairs; advanced electronic warfare capabilities to blind the opposition; and weaponry integrated seamlessly with the fighter&#8217;s avionics. Everything was put down in writing before a Request for Proposal (RfP) was sent out to six global aerospace companies in August 2007.

For these companies, the big question was: which fighter to offer? Lockheed Martin had the F-22 Raptor, the world&#8217;s only fifth-generation fighter, which would win any competition hands-down but would never be cleared for export. The company was also building the F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter, but that was years away from completion and could not participate in IAF&#8217;s impending flight trials. Lockheed Martin eventually fielded its most advanced Block 60 F-16 fighter, dubbed the F-16IN Super Viper, with better avionics and weaponry than any F-16 sold before. Other companies had fewer choices: Boeing fielded its F/A-18 Super Hornet, Dassault offered the Rafale, Saab the Gripen NG which is still in the future, Eurofighter GmbH offered the Typhoon, and Russia fielded the MiG-35.

In the second half of 2008, IAF conducted a technical evaluation to see whether the bids conformed to the RfP. What should have been an innocuous process turned dramatic when Dassault&#8217;s bid was reportedly rejected as incomplete. While this was quickly resolved by diplomatic intervention, reportedly by President Sarkozy himself, other companies now say the Rafale was done a favour by being allowed back into the contest.

It was the next stage of evaluation &#8212; flight trials &#8212; that has put IAF&#8217;s testing process in a league of its own. Conducted by the Directorate of Air Staff Requirements, and overseen by the quiet and unflappable Air Commodore (now Air Vice-Marshal) R K Dhir, each of the six contenders was flight-tested by IAF pilots on 660 separate performance aspects. For example, the RfP demanded that the fighter&#8217;s engine should be replaced within one hour. *The maintenance teams actually made each contender do that. If IAF demanded a &#8220;sustained turn rate&#8221; (the quickness with which a fighter can turn around in the air) of 24 degrees per second, each fighter was physically put through this manoeuvre to establish that it met this requirement. (Incidentally, both the US fighters failed to meet IAF&#8217;s &#8220;sustained turn rate&#8221; requirements)
*
Air Marshal Barbora, who oversaw the flight evaluation process as IAF&#8217;s vice-chief, says that six teams of pilots, flight engineers and maintenance staff were mustered &#8212; one for each aircraft. Each pilot began by learning to fly the fighter he would evaluate, while the flight engineers and maintenance staff learned the technical ropes. The IAF pilots physically flew each of the contending fighters, albeit with a &#8220;home&#8221; pilot in the second seat. This was the first time that any air force has been allowed to conduct such a fly-off.

Last April, the ministry &#8220;down-selected&#8221; the Rafale and Typhoon, which meant that only these two aircraft had passed the flight trial evaluation. Now the game had changed; with performance established, the cheaper of the two was going to be adjudged the winner. For the first time in India, costs were not compared on the ticket price alone, but on how much the fighter would cost to buy, build, upgrade and operate over a service life of three to four decades. IAF had clearly learned a lesson from the Russian MiG experience, where a cheap upfront price that seemed initially attractive led to enormous operating costs and a lower aircraft availability that meant that when IAF paid for six squadrons, it actually had just three squadrons to fly.

Air Marshal (retired) Padamjit Singh Ahluwalia, who brought the first Mirage 2000s to India, says, &#8220;Russian fighters like the MiG-29 are great for air shows but serviceability is often a problem. When you get airborne, the radar often becomes unserviceable&#8230; sometimes this happens between two sorties.&#8221;

* * * * *

*The final countdown has begun, towards signing a contract with Dassault. A defence ministry body called the Contract Negotiating Committee will now engage Dassault in beating down its price, grilling Dassault&#8217;s negotiators on the calculations that determined the final price of the Rafale, and scanning the costs of labour and materials that go into the fighter. For example, CNC will find out how much titanium goes into each aircraft and then check titanium prices on the London Metal Exchange. CNC will also vet labour costs, determining the number of skilled workmen and engineers needed to build the Rafale and multiplying that by the wages (which are notoriously high in France). The aim will be to demonstrate to the Dassault negotiators that the Rafale can be built cheaper than the price they have quoted.

CNC negotiations will also centre on the technologies that Dassault (and its sub-vendors, like Thales) will transfer to India, and the modalities for doing so. The RfP mandates that the technology for the AESA radar (which Thales builds) is to be transferred to India. CNC will verify how that technology, and others, would actually be transferred. Offsets are another minefield that Dassault must cross, ploughing back into Indian industry at least 50 per cent of the estimated $15-17 billion contract value of this deal. Only after these issues are resolved will a contract be actually signed. Senior IAF officers believe this could take till late-2012.
*
If the Rafale purchase goes through, the French seem here to stay.

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## sudhir007

Rafale News: MMRCA, Rafale better than Eurofighter.

After the elimination of the Eurofighter from the MMRCA contest (leaving the Rafale as the only contender for the mega deal) UK has sent a delegation to India in a last and desperate attempt to force India to buy the Eurofighter instead of the Rafale based on the most naive argument of them all: The Eurofighter is a better plane than the Rafale as stated by British Prime Minister David Cameron.

Well, is it ?

*Aquisition price and maintenance costs :* Apparently the Rafale is better as the Indian Ministry of defence has just concluded that the French jet is 15% less expensive to buy and operate than the Typhoon.

*Air to Air efficiency :* Despite all the urban legends spread by the British lobbies, the Rafale does prevail in the Air to air role. Notably, the Rafale was rated clearly higher (in both defensive and offensive A2A missions) than the Eurofighter by Switzerland after 2 very serious evaluations by the Swiss Air Force whose primary requirerment was for an Air Defense fighter.

*Air to Ground efficiency :* No contest here, the Rafale's statistics in Libya speaks for themselves. The British Eurofighter, with their limited Air to ground capabilities, barely did half of the sorties and 1/5 of the tasks accomplished by the Rafale during the conflict (see below).

*Compliance with Indian long term strategic framework*: Again the Typhoon is lagging severely in this area.

The Rafale is carrier capable, the Eurofighter is not
The Rafale platform is optimized for nuclear strikes, not the Eurofighter
The Rafale will share many weapons with the upgraded IAF Mirage 2000, that's not the case of the Eurofighter
The Rafale has no string with US missiles used by Pakistani F-16, the Eurofighter currently uses the same american BVR missile as the PAF...

Conclusion:

Rafale is more effecient
Rafale is more versatile
Rafale is more mature
Rafale is more independant
Rafale is cheaper

So, Mister Cameron, let's be honnest: The Rafale is a better plane than the Eurofighter. And India knows it.

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## sancho

sudhir007 said:


> Conclusion:
> 
> Rafale is more effecient
> Rafale is more versatile
> Rafale is more mature
> Rafale is more independant
> Rafale is cheaper




+ Indian specific advantages:

Rafale is easier to induct and operate in IAF, thanks to Mirage 2000 experience
Rafale is fits better to MMRCA requirements and IAF fleet
Rafale is an option for INs carriers => increased commonality, reduced costs
Rafale gives several techs and weapons that could be used for LCA or AMCA developments (AESA, engine, avionics developments)

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## Bl[i]tZ

Rafale training center. I love the touch screens.

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## anathema

Not sure if you guys have seen this video - A 2 minute gig by French marine pilots. THere is a complete 16 minute video out there somewhere - it was uploaded once on Patricksaviation but was removed later -- anyways enjoy !!

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## Tshering22

India has made powerful enemies with the Rafale deal


india is not likely to bow to Anglo-American pressure to revisit the MMRCA decision in favour of Dassault-Rafale. By deciding on the basis of technical parameters alone, india satisfied its own needs, but quite ignored the diplomatic fall out .Price negotiation is what remains of the crucial MMRCA deal. Its a complicated process. Nevertheless, it appears unlikely that the decision to buy the Rafale itself will be revisited. Given how drawn-out and difficult the choice was, the government is unlikely to add further controversy by admitting it made a mistake, which will be the consequence if the MMRCA competition is reopened. The selection apparently involved testing the platforms on around 600 odd technical parameters. This is the key argument made by proponents of the deal: that the deal was so carefully and technically handled that it should not be questioned.

But the premise that technical factors are all that matters is not defensible especially for such a large and politically important deal. While the technical qualifications are an important set of elements that should go into while making a decision, this has also brought to the fore how strategic factors were underplayed in this critical deal.

A decision made purely on technical parameters seems like the decision makers in India were opting for an easy, risk free option. This is understandable in the domestic political context. The single most important political concern today is about corruption in administrative decisions. Given the importance of this issue in public perception, and particularly given the many corruption scandals that have come out over the last year, it is not surprising that the government wants to play it safe. And the easiest way to play it safe is to leave political discretion out by letting the IAF make a purely technical decision.

Indian military services are known for their thoroughness in assessing weapons systems. Clearly the IAF did a good job of picking what was the best fighter from its perspective. But while the Rafale might have been the best from a

technical standpoint, it is not clear that it was diplomatically and strategically a good choice.

A strategic perspective should have looked at which of the countries fighting for the contract was most useful to India. This is not just about who wants good relations with India or who is a well-wisher because all of the competitors were good friends of India and were Indias well-wishers.

Where they were different was in terms of which could do more for India. This should have been a purely cold, hard assessment. Such an assessment would have put the US and Russia as the top choices. While the European consortium and Sweden would probably have brought up in the back of this list, France would have been somewhere in the middle. It definitely has greater global weight than Sweden and probably a better bet than a consortium of several countries, but it would have been no match for the US or Russia.

Of course, this should not have been the only consideration. Strategic and diplomatic reasons alone should not decide which fighter jet was picked. Indias decision-makers should have also looked at the different technical capabilities of the various competing planes. In fact, the final choice should have been a combination of the technical merits and the political and strategic requirements. And this is the key criticism if the manner in which India has chosen to make the deal  using only technical parameters to make a choice and ignoring diplomatic and strategic factors.

Considering how big this contract was, India could have received significant political benefits, which it stands to lose by making a technical decision. Even France could very well make the argument that there is no political quid pro quo for India choosing the Rafale because India itself claims that this was not a political choice. There is little reason why France has to give any political support for a decision that was purely technical in nature.

This leaves India in the politically the worst position possible  both the US and Russia, politically far more significant than France on global issues, are unhappy with India, but India is unlikely to get much benefit from France despite picking the French plane. And unlike Britain, which is also unhappy about the Indian decision, the US and Russia matter quite a lot in the global arena. So, India has effectively annoyed more important friends for nothing.

There are other factors in addition to the strategic factor that also needs closer examination. The cost factor itself is a serious issue. The unit cost of the plane is only one factor. The cost  acquisition, lifecycle and maintenance cost  should have been an important determinant in this decision. As against hundred odd Rafale, India could have procured many more Russian or US fighter jets for the same value. The Rafale option has cost India dearly both on the acquisition as well as the cost of spare parts.

Thus, though there may have been good reasons for picking the Rafale from a technical point of view, or even from a domestic political perspective, this is not enough. The choice should have at least considered the strategic implications in such a big contract.

That might still have led to the Rafale being picked, but it would have been a more defensible decision.
_____________________________________________________________________

*The US seems to be calm because of the other orders that compensate for US jets being ejected; just like Russia who has the $ 30 billion commitment from IAF for PAKFA-- which is almost three times MMRCA money. 

Even Germany, Spain, Italy seem to have taken their defeat professionally (Sweden winning the Swiss deal). I don't understand what's wrong with Cameron government.*

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## Tshering22

praveen007 said:


> *Google Translate*
> ++
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> *'C'est ça'
> .
> BRASILIA - After so many comings and goings, the government is finally hitting the hammer in favor of the Rafale, the French Dassault, to renew its fleet of FAB. The notice must be in the first half, but only after May 6, when the second round of presidential elections in France.
> The final push was India's decision to buy 126 Rafale, Dassault taking the choke. It is the first international order your jet, so far restricted itself to the French Air Force (sic). With production scale, the price of the planes also tends to fall in business with Brazil, emptying one of the major constraints to them: the cost of the product and especially maintenance.*
> Following the announcement of the deal with the French Indians, Celso Amorim (Defense) was coincidentally in India, in a statement citing the victory of Dassault and noting that 108 of 126 fighters "will be built in the country [India], with technology transfer ". The term "technology transfer" is a mantra dragged FX-2 program, the purchase of aircraft.
> Lula was with pen in hand twice to sign the contract with the French. At first, fell after the embarrassment of announcing the option before the completion of the technical report of the FAB.
> At second, when the sheet of report published the result with the Swedish Gripen first, the F-18 in U.S. Rafale second and third and last.
> *By assuming, Dilma used good argument for cutting the budget study business. The victory of the Gripen in FAB has been considered and the F-18 returned to the wheel. But during one year, crystallized two certainties in government: 1) the Gripen is just a project and Sweden has zero political weight, 2) it is impossible to trust the promise of technology transfer from the U.S., subject to the mood of Congress and alternation
> of power.
> Everything indicates that the Rafale coming.*



I never knew a Brazilian government would ever consider factors independent of US at one stage. Dilma seems to be taking self-reliance to a new level.


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## sancho

Tshering22 said:


> I don't understand what's wrong with Cameron government.[/B]



Isn't that obvious? British MoD financially in a bad situation, EF partners cutting orders and not having the necessary funds to upgrade the fighter and give it more future potential, BAE forced to close parts of the production line and fire 3000 workes, the switch to F35C gives even less parts of the production to BAE, since that version will be build in the US only.
Getting an Indian order would not only diverted several of UKs EF orders, which means big cost savings for their MoD, but also had reduced the funds UK has to pay to upgrade the fighter. Not to mention that such a big order would have given EF a way higher future potential and that's where British industry had benefited in the long term too.
From a politicians point of view, it couldn't be worse. No money, less economical benefits, more unemployed people in his country, on the other side, President Sarkozy will take this (and the M2K upgrade) deal as points to show, how he improved economical situation and foreign relation of France, especially if UAE and Brazil makes orders soon too. Heck India alone could give him even more PR reasons, if the Eurocopter Fennec wins the LUH deal (nearly 200 helicopters), or if FM clears A330 MRTT deal and lets not forget the nuclear power plant deals. 
The Brits have currently simply more to loose and that's why they are more desperate when such a big chance is lost!

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## sancho

*Interesting new leaks from the Swiss competition!!!*


http://files.newsnetz.ch/upload//1/2/12332.pdf


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

sancho said:


> *Interesting new leaks from the Swiss competition!!!*
> 
> 
> http://files.newsnetz.ch/upload//1/2/12332.pdf




That is some high end leak


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## rockstarIN

sancho said:


> *Interesting new leaks from the Swiss competition!!!*
> 
> 
> http://files.newsnetz.ch/upload//1/2/12332.pdf



Interesting indeed.


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## sancho

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> That is some high end leak



Yes, if the signatures of the Swiss air force commanders are original, this would be a very credible source.



rockstar said:


> Interesting indeed.



Many interesting points, if the report is to believe:

- Rafale beeing superior to EF in every single A2A evaluation will
- that it has better sensor fusion and EW 
- that 11 upgrades that could come if the UAE buys Rafale might be included in Swiss Rafales too, which then should be added for Indian Rafales as well
- that the Gripen E/F even with up to 98 upgrades is not able to offer comparable mission effectiveness as Rafale with only 18 upgrades, which once again shows how capable Rafale is even today


However, I don't see the Swiss changing their mind, because they chose the fighter they can afford to procure and operate, not the most capable one. Dassault might offer some cost reductions, but the operational costs will still remain higher and that's the important point for Switzerland. In India things went exactly the other way around, money didn't played a big role, that's why the most expensive, but also most capable fighters (EF at least with high potential) were selected to the final stage.

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## kaykay

*Rafale cost could soar into Skies*

SUMAN SHARMA NEW DELHI | 12th Feb 








A Rafale fighter jet makes a catapult launch aboard France&#8217;s flagship Charles de Gaulle aircraft carrier last year. REUTERS

huge imponderables remain in the pricing of the French fighter Rafale, which the Indian Air Force is expected to purchase this year. France has two audit reports on the pricing of the Rafale fighter aircraft, and the price of the aircraft is different in the two. Variables also include the transfer of technology and development costs. French Dassault Aviation's Rafale fighter was recently declared the lowest bidder (L-1) for the IAF's 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) contract.

One of the audit report records the total cost of the programme at double than the original Indian tender estimate, and the other is triple. If the tab picked up by the French government for the development of Rafale, which is 75%, is included in the eventual price, going by these audit reports, the amount could escalate to close to around $30 billion for the MMRCA, from its original $12 billion.

It may be noted that the MMRCA tender, which was floated in August 2007 and given to six competitors, had a price tag of $12 billion (Rs 42,000 cr) for the total programme for 126 planes. But when the commercial bids opened in November 2011, the price of the programme was announced as $15 billion by the Ministry of Defence (MoD). On 31 January 2012, when the L-1 was declared, the price was announced at $18 billion.

In either of the prices, the MoD will have to fall back on the Ministry of Finance's final word to be put up by the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC), before inking the deal. This is because one report records the total price of the programme at more than $20 billion (around Rs 83,000 cr) and the other records it to around $30 billion (around Rs 125,000 cr).


the first report by the French audit watchdog was submitted in February last year and was based on 2009 estimates, when the Indian technical evaluation got completed and field trials began. According to this report, the price of one Rafale was 142.3 million euro (roughly Rs 900 cr). This cost comprised cost of development and the number of aircraft, in which 101.1 million euro was the cost of development.

This 142.3 million euro is 16.5% more than what was estimated in 1988 by the French government. The increased pricing was attributed by the French audit to the usage of excess polyvalence (raw material). Meanwhile, it has been widely believed that India will probably buy Rafales at around 80-87 million euro each, which means the 126 planes will come without the cost of development.

The second audit report compiled by the French Senate says that a Rafale would cost 152.3 million euro (approximately Rs 1,000 cr), which includes development costs as well.

The Indian MMRCA is important for Dassault, considering the fact that the French government has spent more than $50 billion in developing the aircraft. The programme will create 10,000 jobs. The current production capacity of the company is that of 11 aircraft per year. Every year, the Rafale programme costs around 1 billion euro in the French defence budget.

Talking about price, former Air Chief S. Krishnaswamy told this newspaper, "India may have identified the cheaper aircraft out of the two shortlisted, but it is India which is the loser as our own fighter, the LCA Tejas could not come on time, which is why we had to go for MMRCA. All the money to be spent on MMRCA could have been pumped into the LCA, our indigenous plane, for its development and production, but since we have already spent so much on the LCA and now all this additional money for the MMRCA, it makes the country a loser in the end."

Dassault has lost out bids for the aircraft in Singapore, Morocco, South Korea, Norway and Netherlands in the recent past, which dashed the hopes of the makers who were eyeing India as a big market. Brazil, Switzerland and UAE too rejected Rafale last year, taking the count of countries rejecting Rafale to eight.

The most recent deal lost out by Dassault for 60 Rafales, worth $10 billion, was the one for the United Arab Emirates Air Force, which Dassault was pursuing for years. Citing "uncompetitive and unworkable commercial terms" as the reason, the Abu Dhabi crown prince Sheik Mohamed bin Zayed announced Rafale's ouster from the competition at the Dubai air show last year.

http://www.sunday-guardian.com/investigation/rafale-cost-could-soar-into-skies#.TzfCW9wBm1F.twitter

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## rockstarIN

Price is the key....even it should not have crossed 15-18b. Else better to reduce the number of aircraft and concentrate on LCA MK2


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## perplexed

The deal cannot cross 18bn$. Otherwise, MoF will reject it.


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## Tija

perplexed said:


> The deal cannot cross 18bn$. Otherwise, MoF will reject it.



Subh subh bolo


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## rockstarIN

I have doubt, why didn't French fit Snecma M53 engine in Rafale? It has more thrust than the current M88 ?


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## sancho

As expected:



> *Israeli systems in the new Indian fighter aircraft?*
> 
> The Indian government wants to equip its new fighter aircraft, the French Rafale, with Rafael's Litening pod.
> 
> *India wishes to equip its new fighter aircraft, the French Rafale, with Israeli-produced systems, but there is doubt that the French government will allow it.* At this stage, it is known that India is primarily interested in Rafael's Litening pod, which is intended for navigation and locating ground targets...



Israeli systems in the new Indian fighter aircraft?

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## Roybot

rockstar said:


> I have doubt, why didn't French fit Snecma M53 engine in Rafale? It has more thrust than the current M88 ?



Dimensions? M53 weighs more than twice M88 and is about 2 m longer than M88.

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## sancho

> *REFILE-UPDATE 2-Brazil "very likely" to choose French fighter jet-sources*
> 
> SAO PAULO, Feb 12 (Reuters) - Brazil is "very likely" to choose France's Rafale fighter jet to refurbish its air force, government sources say, a decision that would award one of the emerging-market world's most coveted defense contracts to a jet whose future was in doubt only two weeks ago...
> 
> ...The sources said those concerns were assuaged when India announced on Jan. 31 that it had entered exclusive talks to buy 126 Rafales. Brazilian Defense Minister Celso Amorim traveled to New Delhi last week to discuss the deal with Indian officials and examine documents related to Dassault's bid.
> 
> "*The India deal changed everything," one of the Brazilian sources said. "With India's decision, it's now very likely the Rafale will be the winner here*."..



REFILE-UPDATE 2-Brazil very likely to choose French fighter jet-sources | Reuters





> *Malaysia, the Rafale's radar and defense industrial*
> 
> ...Suddenly, the coast of the Rafale with the military government and Malaysian rebounded unbelievable speed "*The victory of the Rafale in India has created a shock wave here in Malaysia. Especially since we know the neighboring Indians demanding in this kind of negotiation both technically and financially*. Before that, he would have been difficult to select a device that had never been sold for export, "said one observer of the defense market in Malaysia...



Google Übersetzer

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## KRAIT

Indian selection might change Dassault's fortune for atleast a decade.....


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## sancho

> *Switzerland, Evaluation report quick analysis*



Rafale News: Switzerland, Evaluation report quick analysis

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## anathema

sancho said:


> As expected:
> 
> 
> 
> Israeli systems in the new Indian fighter aircraft?



I doubt if this will happen !! French are stubborn - they really wouldnt want to take away any market share from Local arms manufacturers (Damocles) - esp if they are willing to drop the price !! On the other hand - India should just keep up the pressure - Litening is considered to be advanced that Damocles - and also there will be commonality of systems.


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## tvsram1992

anathema said:


> I doubt if this will happen !! French are stubborn - they really wouldnt want to take away any market share from Local arms manufacturers (Damocles) - esp if they are willing to drop the price !! On the other hand - India should just keep up the pressure - Litening is considered to be advanced that Damocles - and also there will be commonality of systems.


keep in mind what happened to Mirages at the time of kargil .


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## anathema

tvsram1992 said:


> keep in mind what happened to Mirages at the time of kargil .



What happened ? It was a national emergency - India would have nevertheless gone ahead and integrated those LGB's regardless of French support being/not being there. French did a wise thing of supporting us. But now - there is no national emergency !


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## Shaurya

*HAL prepares to manufacture Rafale combat jet in India*

State-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) is getting ready to progressively manufacture the Dassault Rafale combat jet that has apparently been chosen by the Indian Air Force (IAF) for its $10.4 billion order for 126 planes.

HAL officiating Chairman and Managing Director P.V. Deshmukh told India Strategic defence magazine (..:: India Strategic ::.. Home Page: The authoritative monthly on Defence and Strategic Affairs.) that the company had already earmarked its own land near Bangalore, where it is headquartered, to produce some of the aircraft's major components and integrate the overall aircraft and systems.

The first 18 aircraft would come in fly-away condition, within three years of signing of the contract and meanwhile, HAL would get the production tooling, expertise and technical know-how under transfer of technology from the French.

The remaining 108 aircraft would initially be progressively manufactured from SKD (semi-knocked-down) and CKD (completely knocked-down) kits. Gradually, HAL would start producing the fuselage and other parts from the raw materials. Dassault engineers would assist in technology transfer and production plants.

HAL has been preparing for the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) project in terms of allocation of funds and organisational changes needed to launch and deliver the targets on time. Three phases have been earmarked for HAL's goalposts in manufacturing this highly-sophisticated aircraft.

Deshmukh, who was earlier managing director of HAL's MiG complex at Nasik, said that over the next 10 years, the Rafale project should generate business approximating $4-5 billion. "It is a huge project for us," he observed.

He disclosed that HAL already had Memorandums of Understanding (MoUs) with Dassault and engine-maker Snecma to produce some of the designated parts. "HAL has been preparing for the MMRCA project in terms of allocation of funds and organizational changes needed to launch and deliver the MMRCA project targets on time."

Separate divisions have been planned for the aircraft and engine of the MMRCA at Bangalore, and two locations have been shortlisted within the HAL estate there for setting up the airframe and engine divisions.

Pre-planning activities with respect to conceptual design of plant layout for the aircraft and engine production units are under progress. Accessory production has been planned at HAL divisions at Hyderabad, Lucknow and Korwa (Uttar Pradesh).

Deshmukh described the Rafale as a state-of-the-art multi-role combat aircraft capable of a wide range of missions such as air defence, air superiority, close air support, air-to-ground precision strikes, interdiction, maritime roles and nuclear strikes. It has an integrated suite of avionics, electronic sensors, AESA Radar and active/passive counter measures.

"HAL is the designated lead production agency for the airframe, aero-engine and systems integration of the aircraft. Out of the 126 aircraft,, 18 aircraft will be directly supplied by Dassault Aviation and 108 aircraft will be built at HAL in three phases. In the next four years, the Rafale aircraft deliveries would commence from HAL to the Indian Air Force as per the agreed schedule. HAL envisages a business volume of about Rs.20,000 to Rs.25,000 crores ($4-5 billion) in the MMRCA project over the next 10 years."

Deshmukh said that the offset requirement of the MMRCA programme being 50 percent of the foreign exchange content, HAL is also looking forward to active participation in this industrial effort up to around 30 per cent of the offset value.

HAL prepares to manufacture Rafale combat jet in India | Deccan Chronicle


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## praveen007

*MMRCA: Counter Point | Institute for Defence Studies and Analyses
++
IDSA COMMENT MMRCA:- Counter Point
by- Ramesh Phadke
February 13, 2012*
.
.
Since the announcement of the French Rafale as a
possible winner (possible because serious
negotiations on the final price based on life cycle
costs and Transfer of Technology (ToT) are yet to
be concluded) on January 31, 2012, a number of
very strong views against the decision have been
published. Academics, strategic affairs analysts
and journalists have generally highlighted two
major points. Firstly, that the Rafale is too
expensive; India could have purchased a larger
number of less expensive fighters because, with
the threat of a &#8216;two front war&#8217;, India needs
numbers rather than technology. Secondly, that
the choice of the USD 10 to 20 billion worth
contract should have been based more on
consideration of strategic gains instead of
technology alone. While at first glance, there
appears some substance in these arguments, a
deeper analysis of the various associated issues
and the long history of India&#8217;s choices in defence
procurement would lead us to different
conclusions.
A brief overview of India&#8217;s past decisions would
show that until the current buy, all defence
purchases were made without an &#8216;open tender&#8217;
process. As such, why the IAF chose a particular
piece of equipment or why the then government
gave it the green signal is shrouded in secrecy.
But, it is evident that there were many weighty
security and foreign policy issues behind such
decisions.
In 1948, India decided to buy an unspecified
number of Vampire jet fighters from Britain
because at the time Britain was the only country
that was ready to sell defence equipment to non-
aligned India. India also had a sizeable &#8216;sterling
balance&#8217; or credit with the UK and did not have to
pay cash. That this sterling balance was very
quickly exhausted is another matter. In 1950-51,
tensions mounted following the issue of refugee
influx from the erstwhile East Pakistan. The then
Prime Minister of Pakistan Liaqat Ali Khan showed
increasing belligerence as time passed. Nehru, as
a precautionary measure, alerted the Indian
armed forces and even moved an armoured
brigade closer to the borders in the Punjab. To its
surprise, the IAF found that while it had plenty of
spares of all types, the vital &#8216;firing mechanism&#8217; for
the Vampire guns was nowhere to be found.
Whether by design or default, the British
appeared to have placed the IAF in great difficulty.
The senior officers of the IAF then felt that India
needed to diversify her sources of defence supply
in the event one or the other supplier decided to
impose sanctions, as happened later during the
1965 Indo-Pak War. The IAF then chose the
Dassault Ouragon (called Toofani in India) instead
of the British Meteor, even though at that time a
senior British Officer Air Marshal Gibbs was the
Chief of the Air Staff of the IAF.
.
*......................For full article please visit above link*


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## praveen007

*Britain again raises the pitch for Typhoon for fighter deal- News - IBNLive Mobile
.
Britain again raises the pitch for Typhoon for fighter deal
--Press Trust Of India.
06:02 PM,Feb 13,2012*


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## sancho

anathema said:


> I doubt if this will happen !! French are stubborn - they really wouldnt want to take away any market share from Local arms manufacturers (Damocles) - esp if they are willing to drop the price !! On the other hand - India should just keep up the pressure - Litening is considered to be advanced that Damocles - and also there will be commonality of systems.



I wouldn't call it stubborn, but as you mentioned the have a LDP too and logically wants to sell it in the first place. Litening 3 is considered to be better than Damocles, but Rafale will get the new Damocles XF by the time IAF gets the first squad, so it might depend on how close it is to Litening 4 and if the US might allow the integration, which could be more tricky.
The best hint will be the Mirage 2000 upgrade, because most of the techs and weapons will be chosen with Rafale in mind as well I think.

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## perplexed

praveen007 said:


> *Britain again raises the pitch for Typhoon for fighter deal- News - IBNLive Mobile
> .
> Britain again raises the pitch for Typhoon for fighter deal
> --Press Trust Of India.
> 06:02 PM,Feb 13,2012*



WTF is wrong with those retards. Khamakhan gale pade hue hai. Nahin chahiye bhai EFT

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## PEACEMAKER2010

*IAF defends Rafale pick*

The Indian Air Force, on Monday rubbished reports in the Western media, especially in the UK, criticising India picking Dassaults Rafale over Eurofighter in the $10.4 billion medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) deal that will see India procure 126 of the selected aircraft.

Deputy Chief of Air Staff, Air Marshal R&#8200;K Sharma, defending the decision, said:&#8200;All aspects, including the technical and cost aspects, were considered before the decision was made.

He was answering a specific question after the silver jubilee celebrations of Defence Avionics Research Establishment (DARE), a DRDO laboratory. He said:&#8200;To put it short, not everything being reported is true.

Earlier, while delivering his speech, Sharma said: A good portion of the Staff Qualitative Requirements (SQRs), which the aircraft had to comply with, were on its potential for upgradation, avionics and radar. Sharma was part of the selection committee of the aircraft.

In all, Rafale complied with 600-odd parameters laid down in the Air Staff Qualitative Requirements.&#8200;Sources said that the evaluation was done keeping in mind the life-cycle costs (a time span of 40 years), cost of other aspects like the electronic warfare equipment, avionics etc. 

His statements come on the same day as Britain sought to raise the pitch for Eurofighter Typhoon. The Press Trust of India has quoted UK Minister of State for Foreign Affairs Jeremy Browne: We feel that the Typhoon is the strongest offer...obviously, otherwise we wouldn't be hoping thats the competitive bid... some considerations still need to be made.

Further, stating that the new Defence Offset policy will be out soon, Sharma said: ...Even in the MMRCA deal there will be enough for India to benefit, including in some critical technology coming our way.

Conceding that the Defence Procurement Policy (DPP) and the offset policy do not have the countrys research establishmentsincluding DRDO mandate and charter listed clearly, he said:&#8200;There is however enough scope for DRDO and the likes to send in their representations to the Centre.

In the new offset policy, he said, transfer of technology (ToT) will become a more validated option, giving a boost to the research sector in the country.

Reacting to this, V&#8200;K&#8200;Saraswat, Scientific Advisor to the Defence Minister and Director General (R&D), DRDO said:&#8200;Even we (DRDO) should become more proactive. So as we learnt that an aircraft has been chosen by the IAF, we should have began listing what kind of technology we need and so on.

LCA-Navy, Agni V soon: Saraswat

V K Saraswat, scientific advisor to the Defence Minister, said that the first flight of LCA-Navy will happen in a month while the launch of Agni-V, is scheduled for March-end, reports DHNS.

Taxing trials are already under way for LCA while
Agni-V, he said, is being integrated at Hyderabad and at Wheeler Island. The launch will happen subject to ships being available for down-range tracking, he added. 

IAF defends Rafale pick

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## anathema

*Finally found the Rafale video !! *

All Rafale fans enjoy - Some excellent quality footage. I had posted shorter version of the video - this is the full one .. 


[video]http://www.patricksaviation.com/videos/marin.du.ciel/5607/[/video]

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## ejaz007

*U.K. Officials Talk to India About Fighter Decision*
Feb. 8, 2012 - 12:14PM By ANDREW CHUTER

LONDON  Britain has used a defense trade mission to India, led by a government minister, to hold talks with New Delhi on how it can reverse its decision to buy the French Rafale rather than the Typhoon for an $11 billion fighter requirement.

Defense Minister Gerald Howarth has held discussions with the Indian government to discuss what can be done, ministerial colleague David Willetts told industry executives and politicians at a dinner held by the ADS trade lobby group here Feb. 7.

Howarth, the minister for international security strategy at the U.K. Ministry of Defence, has already had talks with Pallam Raju, the Indian minister of state for defense, during the first part of what is a long-planned weeklong trade mission involving business leaders from 20 defense and security companies  including Eurofighter partners BAE Systems and the U.K. arm of EADS.

A spokesman for the British governments defense exports organization said Howarth was in India to support the opportunities for the defense and security sector rather than to pursue the Typhoon bid.

Earlier this week, the Financial Times in London reported that BAE Chief Executive Ian King said he would consult with partners in Germany, Italy and Spain over how to revive the Typhoon bid. All options were on the table, including a possible reduction in the price, he said.

Last week, Dassaults Rafale fighter was selected as the preferred option on cost grounds to supply the Indian Air Force with 126 multirole fighters in one of the biggest combat aircraft deals in a decade.

The decision caused a storm in Britain, where it was attacked by British government ministers, including Prime Minister David Cameron, who said the Indians should rethink the decision, claiming Typhoon was a better aircraft with cheaper through-life costs than its French rival.

Even the continuation of Britains large aid program to India, which rankles with the public here anyway, was questioned by some British politicians.

In contrast, quiet diplomacy rather than gunboat politics appears to have been the reaction in Germany, where the overall bid is being led through EADS.

U.K. Officials Talk to India About Fighter Decision | Defense News | defensenews.com

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## Abingdonboy

self delete.


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## SQ8

Sorry.. but yes it is fairly crappy. 
You should have watched an episode of sherlock instead.

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## Abingdonboy

Oscar said:


> Sorry.. but yes it is fairly crappy.
> You should have watched an episode of sherlock instead.




HAHAHA! Watched all of them, many numerous times. But I get the (nost so subtle) hint- I'll take care of it.


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## Stealth

*UK veech kay he chadayga hhahahahhahahhaa *


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## SQ8

Abingdonboy said:


> HAHAHA! Watched all of them, many numerous times. But I get the (nost so subtle) hint- I'll take care of it.



Waiting anxiosly for the next season then are we?

On the topic.. 
what is the next step.. ?
who and when will ink the concrete agreement?


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## sputnik

I would admire if deal with France sealed in presence of UK trade commission in India.


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## sudhir007

India: Rafale Decision Final | Aviation International News

Indias Air Chief Marshal N.A.K. Browne confirmed to AIN here at the Singapore Airshow that the countrys resolve to select the lowest bidder for the contract for 126 medium multirole combat aircraft remains in place. The contract negotiation committee (CNC) opened Dassault Aviations bid proposing its Rafale on February 13 and identified the *French OEM as the lowest bidder*. The decision to involve another manufacturer is procedurally untenable, said Browne. We have a procedure as per the defense procurement policy that stipulates the contract goes to the lowest bidder.
The CNC, which gets into action once the lowest bidder has been identified, is scheduled to *start price negotiations with Dassault from March 5*. Discussions will be held on electronics, radar, transfer of technology and offsets.

Asked if he was satisfied with the Rafale selection, Browne said it was, *Brilliant!* We got it at the best cost possible. *The decision was based on performance and Rafale passed all qualifications.
*
However, Browne said the requirement for the fighters was as of yesterday, meaning that, in reality, *he expects the process to be completed by the end of the year. The air force plans to start pilot training soon, he added.*

*Browne also said Brazil has asked India to share its acquisition process, including evaluation and lifecycle costs. Coincidentally, Indias state minister, Pallam Raju, is visiting Brazil at the end of March to view the flight of the second, fully modified aircraft for the indigenously developed Indian airborne warning and control system aircraft, the EMB-145, at Embraers facilities at São José dos Campos in Brazil.*

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## Abingdonboy

Oscar said:


> Waiting anxiosly for the next season then are we?
> 
> On the topic..
> what is the next step.. ?
> who and when will ink the concrete agreement?



Well the next step is price negotiations with Dassualt, a specialized negotiation team from MoD will meet with Dassualt representative and try and to get the best price possible. It has been reported this could be finished and a deal signed in March- given how this deal goes April/May might be a more realistic timeline.


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## SQ8

Abingdonboy said:


> Well the next step is price negotiations with Dassualt, a specialized negotiation team from MoD will meet with Dassualt representative and try and to get the *best price possible*. It has been reported this could be finished and a deal signed in March- given how this deal goes April/May might be a more realistic timeline.



Adjustments with the current M2K upgrade in progress perhaps?


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## Abingdonboy

Oscar said:


> Adjustments with the current M2K upgrade in progress perhaps?



Unlikely, that deal has been signed and implemented, it would be highly unusual to go back and adjust a done deal.


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## sancho

Oscar said:


> what is the next step.. ?
> who and when will ink the concrete agreement?





> is scheduled to start price negotiations with Dassault from March 5. Discussions will be held on electronics, radar, transfer of technology and offsets.



Hopefully, they combine the deal with the Kaveri/Snecma and AESA radar co-development, which then will benefit LCA MK2 and a future AMCA a lot. I expect HMS and IRST beeing developed or licence produced by Samtel, which adds more advanced techs.
FGFA could benefit from certain techs as well, especially if we get a hand on SPECTRA.

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## JanjaWeed

*BAE Hopes India May Reverse Fighter Decision*

LONDON &#8212; British arms manufacturer BAE Systems said Feb. 16 it held out hope that India may reverse its decision to negotiate a mega-contract for 126 fighter jets exclusively with France&#8217;s Dassault Aviation.

In a lackluster earnings statement, BAE said it still felt a deal with India could bounce its way despite a shock decision from the former colony long seen as a privileged partner for Britain.

India announced in late January it had selected Dassault, builder of the Rafale, over BAE as the preferred bidder in a contract estimated to be worth $12 billion (9.1 billion euros).

The Eurofighter Typhoon project, which had been seen as the frontrunner, involves BAE and companies in Germany, Italy and Spain.

If concluded, the contract would mark the first time the Rafale had found an export partner, despite being in service with the French military since 1998 and having proved itself in several conflicts.

France is confident that it can sign and seal a firm deal to supply India the jets within six to nine months.

But BAE, which owns 33 percent of the Eurofighter project, said it would keep fighting for the India deal.

&#8220;The program has a long way to go before a contract is awarded and we continue to actively support the bid,&#8221; BAE said in its earnings statement.

BAE Systems CEO Ian King added that the consortium partners were exploring all options including a discount on the aircraft, though he added there were limits on how far the consortium would go.

Howard Wheeldon, an independent defense and aerospace analyst, predicted &#8220;a long running contest.&#8221;

&#8220;Eurofighter Typhoon has still got a very credible chance of pulling this back,&#8221; he said.

The main question &#8220;is whether France and Rafale can meet the commitments that they have made of in terms of industrialization and technology transfer commitments to India,&#8221; Wheeldon said.

Britain and Eurofighter already have a lot of experience in this domain, Wheeldon said, and could use this to wrench India away from the Rafale.

In the days following the announcement, French President Nicolas Sarkozy underlined the significant transfers of technology in the deal.

The big stakes deal with India may cloud a Franco-British summit in Paris on Feb. 17. Tensions between France and Britain have been high lately, mainly on European issues.

The pressure is on BAE to expand its market with old customers Britain and the United States slashing defense spending.

BAE sales in 2011 sank 14 percent as cash-strapped governments axed spending on defense and security, and the company&#8217;s order book shrank to £36.2 billion.

Earnings rose 18 percent last year but only thanks to one-off items such as a research-and-development tax credit and through axing 22,000 jobs out of a global workforce that at one time numbered more than 120,000.

Looking beyond the setback in India, BAE said successful conclusion of negotiations for a crucial Saudi Arabian fighter jet contract would underpin earnings growth this year.

BAE Hopes India May Reverse Fighter Decision | Defense News | defensenews.com


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## Storm Force

Euro fighters persistence in the background IS HELPING INDIA achieve an even better deal WITH FRANCE DASSULT when it finalises the contract in the early part of APRIL OR MY 2012.

For dassult knowing TYPHOON is stil awaiting any break down in TOT TRFS or costs they will lose the deal. 

THANK YOU EADS & TYPHOON.


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## shiv

Storm Force said:


> Euro fighters persistence in the background IS HELPING INDIA achieve an even better deal WITH FRANCE DASSULT when it finalises the contract in the early part of APRIL OR MY 2012.
> 
> For dassult knowing TYPHOON is stil awaiting any break down in TOT TRFS or costs they will lose the deal.
> 
> THANK YOU EADS & TYPHOON.



It has its downside as well. Suppose the obstinacy of french gets the better off them and they end up screwing the deal(randomly pulling out straws here), then BAE will have free run when we negotiate them for EFT (our loss) or we may end up loosing EFT as well (our loss).

#as per the most pessimistic view

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## agamdilawari



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## Abingdonboy

Interesting document I have just read:

http://files.newsnetz.ch/upload//1/2/12332.pdf

File is a leaked evaluation report on a similar MRCA procurement process for Swiss involving Rafale, EFT and Gripen. Read it through and it is clear why Rafale won- they are best in ever category as assessed by Swiss.


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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> Interesting document I have just read:
> 
> http://files.newsnetz.ch/upload//1/2/12332.pdf
> 
> File is a leaked evaluation report on a similar MRCA procurement process for Swiss involving Rafale, EFT and Gripen. Read it through and it is clear why Rafale won- they are best in ever category as assessed by Swiss.




 

http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/4347-mrca-news-discussions-536.html#post2591570

http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/4347-mrca-news-discussions-537.html#post2594971

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## DrSomnath999

brother sancho when is Metoer missile going to be inducted to rafale i saw a report in DGA website which states metoer is going to be inducted by 2017 .IS it true ???




Le missile Meteor

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## sancho

DrSomnath999 said:


> brother sancho when is Metoer missile going to be inducted to rafale i saw a report in DGA website which states metoer is going to be inducted by 2017 .IS it true ???



Yes, because French forces have to replace MICA EM later than Germany or Italy the early AIM 120 versions. The integration already has started though and reportedly UAE wants to early integration of METEOR if they select Rafale, will be interesting to see what India and Brazil wants.


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## sudhir007

Eurofighter Activities In Oman, UAE Heat Up | AVIATION WEEK

Coming off losses in Indian and Japan, the Eurofighter Typhoon consortium is now looking to the Middle East to build up its backlog of orders for the fighter.

The goal is to secure the sale of 12 Typhoons to Oman in September or October after January&#8217;s formal release of the request for proposals. The program is valued at more than £2 billion and could also trigger sales of additional Hawk trainers.

After receiving an RFP from the United Arab Emirates in November &#8211; following a falling out between the government and front-runner Dassault Aviation and its Rafale entrant &#8211; BAE Systems is preparing a full-fledged campaign in the country, suggests Alan Garwood, group business development director. The offering has received &#8220;big encouragement&#8221; from the UAE, Garwood tells financial analysts as the company released full-year results last week, noting there is &#8220;all to play for.&#8221; Boeing has also been briefing the UAE on the F/A-18E/F as a possible fighter choice.

BAE Systems also has its eye on a bid in Qatar and on Malaysia in Asia, but those competitions are not expected to intensify until later.

Meanwhile, discussions continue with Saudi Arabia over the follow-on contract for 48 more Typhoons on top of the 24 fighters already delivered. Assembly of those aircraft will now take place in the U.K., with Saudi Arabia opting for a maintenance and upgrade facility over a final assembly line. The Saudi government also plans to take the last 24 aircraft in a Tranche 3 configuration. One of the remaining issues to be sorted out in negotiations is price inflation, with the contract talks having been extended.

*Meanwhile, the company continues to keep its eye on the Indian Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) competition, where Dassault Aviation was named the lowest-cost compliant bidder. There is precedent for talks between the lowest-cost bidder and the government to stall, and the runner-up lowest-cost bidder &#8211; in this case the Eurofighter Typhoon &#8211; to win the final contract, BAE Systems CEO Ian King notes.
*
BAE Systems is now working with Cassidian, the German EADS unit leading the campaign, to improve the offer on the table in case New Delhi turns away from Rafale. The goal is to sharpen the proposal &#8220;without slashing margins,&#8221; says Guy Griffiths, BAE Systems managing director, international. &#8220;We and the U.K. government will be pushing hard to get our German partners to move forward,&#8221; King adds.


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## DrSomnath999

sancho said:


> Yes, because French forces have to replace MICA EM later than Germany or Italy the early AIM 120 versions. The integration already has started though and reportedly UAE wants to early integration of METEOR if they select Rafale, will be interesting to see what India and Brazil wants.


but when would india getting these missiles 2017 ???? plz dont say yes


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## sancho

DrSomnath999 said:


> but when would india getting these missiles 2017 ???? plz dont say yes



Depends on the development and integration of the missile. If it's ready soon and we (or UAE/Brazil) will pay for early integration, we might have it from 2015 onwards.


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## DrSomnath999

sancho said:


> Depends on the development and integration of the missile. If it's ready soon and we (or UAE/Brazil) will pay for early integration, we might have it from 2015 onwards.


lets hope it is inducted as soon as possible atleast by 2015 or elze Mica BVRAAM would be mainstay of RAFALE' BVRAAM till that 
time


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## sancho

DrSomnath999 said:


> lets hope it is inducted as soon as possible atleast by 2015 or elze Mica BVRAAM would be mainstay of RAFALE' BVRAAM till that
> time



MICA will be a mainstay in IAF and for Rafale anyway, once because of Mirage 2000 upgrade, secondly because MICA will be used for WVR combats as well as medium range BVR combats, even if METEOR is inducted. That's one of the key differences of Rafale and EF, because the earlier offers 2 different BVR missiles (with METEOR even 3), while the latter always has just 1. The combo of Rafale, SPECTRA, FSO and MICA is very capable and unique, be it in WVR or BVR.


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## DrSomnath999

sancho said:


> MICA will be a mainstay in IAF and for Rafale anyway, once because of Mirage 2000 upgrade, secondly because MICA will be used for WVR combats as well as medium range BVR combats, even if METEOR is inducted. That's one of the key differences of Rafale and EF, because the earlier offers 2 different BVR missiles (with METEOR even 3), while the latter always has just 1. The combo of Rafale, SPECTRA, FSO and MICA is very capable and unique, be it in WVR or BVR.


but MICA 's BVRAAM's range is a handicap for us ,atleast 70 -80 km could have been a decent range .BTW how did EF2000 
typhoon offered 3 BVR missiles (meteor ,AIMRAAM) & 3rd one which missile ??????


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## sancho

DrSomnath999 said:


> but MICA 's BVRAAM's range is a handicap for us ,atleast 70 -80 km could have been a decent range .BTW how did EF2000
> typhoon offered 3 BVR missiles (meteor ,AIMRAAM) & 3rd one which missile ??????



Only if you still believe that BVR missiles will be launched at maximum range.  MICA is reported with a range of 60 to 70Km for both versions, can carry both and Meteor at the same time (which gives it a higher number of BVR capable missiles than EF can carry), can identify targets at longer ranges and is less detectable. All these advantages gives it very good BVR capability, even against fighters with longer range radar or missiles.


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## DARKY

DrSomnath999 said:


> but MICA 's BVRAAM's range is a handicap for us ,atleast 70 -80 km could have been a decent range .BTW how did EF2000
> typhoon offered 3 BVR missiles (meteor ,AIMRAAM) & 3rd one which missile ??????



MICA range is about 80km at high altitudes... in spite of being significantly lighter than other BVR at 112kg... most of the BVR launches takes place at 70-50km at high altitude and can go as low as 50-30km at low altitude.. since launching the missile at long range is wasteful...as the enemy aircraft is outside its kill zone arc... and can escape or outmaneuver the missile.


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## Gessler

wanglaokan said:


> Su-30 is more like air to ground superior, We need it in our inventory. J10b is inferior to Rafale on air to ground capacity but better at air combat. J10A is always shooing su-27 flanker down in the PLAAF practice.



hmmm...what? J-10A/B superior to Rafale in A2A??? Hahahah!!! 

dude, to be good (or superior) in air combat, a plane should have superior armament. the J-10 uses PL-5E PL-9C and a few
other AAMs BVRAAMs are SD-10 and PL-12 (all these inferior to even R-73 & R-77)

At the other hand Rafale has MICA missiles for WVR and Meteor and Astra-I/II for BVRAAMs, far superior to any
other BVRAAMs available


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## conworldus

gessler said:


> hmmm...what? J-10A/B superior to Rafale in A2A??? Hahahah!!!
> 
> dude, to be good (or superior) in air combat, a plane should have superior armament. the J-10 uses PL-5E PL-9C and a few
> other AAMs BVRAAMs are* SD-10 and PL-12 (all these inferior to even R-73 & R-77)*
> 
> At the other hand Rafale has MICA missiles for WVR and Meteor and Astra-I/II for BVRAAMs, far superior to any
> other BVRAAMs available



What you said is simply false.


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## Shaurya

conworldus said:


> What you said is simply false.



This real world my friend not your CCP run panda wonderland.., please explain why it's "simply false"


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## conworldus

Shaurya said:


> This real world my friend not your CCP run panda wonderland.., please explain why it's "simply false"



When you people throw statement like this, "Chinese stuff inferior to Western stuff", you should offer evidence. No evidence = false. My CCP propaganda washed, American educated, world traveled mind simply does not understand you.


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## Jon Snow

gessler said:


> hmmm...what? J-10A/B superior to Rafale in A2A??? Hahahah!!!
> 
> dude, to be good (or superior) in air combat, a plane should have superior armament. the J-10 uses PL-5E PL-9C and a few
> other AAMs BVRAAMs are SD-10 and PL-12 (all these inferior to even R-73 & R-77)
> 
> At the other hand Rafale has MICA missiles for WVR and Meteor and Astra-I/II for BVRAAMs, far superior to any
> other BVRAAMs available


The R 73 is certainly a very good missile but the R 77 is not very reliable - its a good missile if it does its job but the IAF has found that its not very serviceable and has a far shorter shelf life than advertised by the Russians.
We will replace it with the Astra soon. Also dont underestimate the SD 10s capability - the Chinese had access to AMRAAMs via pakistan and R 77s via Russia - they probably came up with a pretty decent missile - the B version will be even better - the only missile that will give us a huge advantage over our neighbours in BVR combat is likely to be Meteor that is why I am a big supporter of integrating the meteor on the Su 30.


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## Shaurya

conworldus said:


> When you people throw statement like this, "Chinese stuff inferior to Western stuff", you should offer evidence. No evidence = false. My CCP propaganda washed, American educated, world traveled mind simply does not understand you.



 I asked you for evidence/explanation, if you don't have it go to your chinese section and enjoy "our panda wonderland is so great" game, enough is enough of your and your troll brothers, and please don't come up with the link of some chinese drone who proclaims in big letters "CHINA IS THE BEST IN THE WORLD" , never mind the cheap copies that the great china makes of various technologies...


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## Malik Alashter

The reality is that india chose the rafale which I consider one of the best the other reality is that india going to get ToT that's going to push india to be close to the top high tech countries within one decade!!!.


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## sudhir007

Rafale Selected

The much awaited announcement of the winner in India&#8217;s medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) acquisition was finally made a fortnight ago, with the Rafale fighter from Dassault Aviation of France taking away the coveted deal.

Two aircraft, the Rafale and the Eurofighter from a European consortium, had earlier been down-selected from the six short-listed contenders after extensive evaluations and field trials. The final round was to be decided on the basis of total costs involving detailed calculations covering the estimated 40 years life of the aircraft including running costs, spares, maintenance and technical support. The Ministry of Defence (MoD) declaration in fact conveyed that the Dassault Rafale had emerged as L1 or the lowest cost bidder. The last remaining step now is the haggling over the final price and other details of the contract itself. Price is expected to go up considerably from the originally cited $10 billion, with some quarters suggesting ti could go as high as $15 billion or even $20 billion. 


Given the huge value of the deal, and the global interest in it, we will of course examine the selection itself and the lessons learned from the long process. A fair amount of discussion, including in these columns, has already taken place on the technical merits or drawbacks of the contending aircraft. This article will therefore also locate the Rafale acquisition in, and take stock of, the entire raft of recent acquisitions and upgrades, and those on the anvil, that together make up the bulk of the modernization of the Indian Air Force as projected to meet security needs over the next three or more decades. And finally, we will also look at perhaps the most important aspect, but unfortunately the least studied or commented upon by analysts, namely how does India propose to absorb these new technologies and build indigenous capability on the back of these expensive acquisitions.


Rafale wins The nitty gritty of the complex evaluation process, field trials, lifetime costs and the comparative assessment of the MMRCA contenders are of course not available in the public domain. It is however known that the MoD has shared the salient aspects with the two finalists to underline the fairness and transparency of the process, and so as to ward off precisely the kind of recrimination and charges of bias or worse that emanated from the losing parties at least in the immediate aftermath of the announcement. 


It is believed that the IAF was given far more primacy in the decision-making process than in most earlier deals. The aircraft performance and how the user saw it fitting into not only its strategic and tactical plans but also its fleet operations and maintenance would therefore have had substantial weightage. It is believed that around 640 parameters were used in the comparative evaluation. Value for money would undoubtedly have been a major consideration. But it can only be part of the contemporary mythology of tendering that in the final round, both contenders were on equal footing as to performance and compatibility with IAF fleet requirements, with only price being thereafter the only determining factor.


The MMRCA acquisition has been in the table for a long time and, understandably, the Air Force requirements have also undergone modification over this period, keeping in mind its evolving defence strategy, as well as the quite rapid obsolescence of large parts of its existing fleet and the various other acquisitions and upgrades undertaken during the interim. As noted in an earlier piece, the very definition of the aircraft to be acquired shifted from a lightweight fighter to a medium-weight aircraft (the second M in the MMRCA being a later addition) with substantial attack capability.


Both the contenders, as is the preference these days, are very capable both in aerial combat and in ground attack roles. However, the Eurofighter is believed to be optimized for air superiority whereas the Rafale, with somewhat longer range and ability to carry more armaments (including, the French are believed to have stressed, nuclear weapons), is thought to have better fitted the IAF&#8217;s evolving requirements. While some of the 6 short-listed aircraft were probably knocked out very early for being too light but continued in the tender more as a formality, the Rafale was once thought to be too heavy. 


Several commentators consider the Eurofighter to be among the best contemporary aerial combat aircraft, excluding the US F-22 Raptor which is a class apart but too advanced for foreseeable threats and far too expensive even for the US which has discontinued further procurement. On the other hand, India already has the Sukhoi SU-30 MkI whose performance in the Indradhanush exercises against all US and European fighters must surely put it there among the best. India has recently ordered a further 64 Su-30 MkIs over and above its earlier order of 140 aircraft most of which are to be made in India, so clearly that slot is taken. If India wanted more aerial fighters, it would make far greater sense to simply buy more Su-30s than to go in for new Eurofighters. Besides, the Rafale also has a ready carrier-based version. 


India&#8217;s attack fleet though is quite severely depleted with the imminent phasing away of the several decades old Jaguars from Britain. India has recently decided to upgrade its Mirage 2000s which performed very well in the Himalayan cold mountainous terrain during the Kargil conflict. The Rafale with its longer range and modern technology provides excellent complementarity with the Mirage fleet, further augmented by the fact that both aircraft are from Dassault of France which is also executing the Mirage upgrade. 

On the other hand, the Eurofighter would have been a completely new type of aircraft for the IAF, requiring all-new support systems. There may also have been some questions about Its AESA radar which is still under development.

But price must have been a very major factor indeed. Some sources have said that the Eurofighter was a good 20 percent more expensive than the Rafale in life-cycle terms. Nothing suggests that the Eurofighter has so much better performance or capabilities as to outweigh the cost disadvantage.


France is also said to have offered, and guaranteed its government&#8217;s backing for, significant transfer of technology to India. This has two dimensions, both very important: first, extent of indigenization and control especially over vital technologies in times of conflict, and second cost. It is quite likely that the Rafale scored heavily over the Eurofighter on both counts.


Reliability of Partners And thereby hangs quite a story, too involved to go into much detail here, but some broad pointers would help readers grasp the bigger picture.


Britain and to a lesser extent Germany have made much of what they perceive to be &#8220;extraneous&#8221; geo-strategic considerations and an Indian tilt towards France because of the latter&#8217;s clout as a Security Council member whereas a deal with an amorphous European consortium would not have given India similar diplomatic dividends. If that had been the main criteria, the US contractors should have won the deal hands down. With the US too complaining bitterly about Indian &#8216;ingratitude,&#8221; in effect wanting India to use extraneous considerations to decide on a crucial military acquisition, Britain too conveyed it expected India to be swayed by the aid Britain was giving. Most of this can be put down to sour grapes, but the issue of &#8220;extraneous factors&#8221; deserves some consideration.


In military aviation today, and to a smaller degree in the civilian sector too, US companies such as Boeing and Lockheed Martin are too big and powerful for most rivals from other countries. In Europe, the response has been through consortia such as the Airbus manufacturer EADS and project-specific consortia such as with the Eurofighter which brought together British, German, Spanish and Italian firms. In the civil sector Airbus is commercially on a par with the American giant Boeing and has solidified its reputation as a reliable supplier, also encouraging sub-contracting partnerships in other countries, and provider of support services. The same obviously cannot be said of the more temporary consortia for military aircraft. 


Today Russia and France are the two remaining non-US nationally-based military aviation industries covering design and manufacture of airframes, engines, armaments, avionics and systems integration, with Britain having increasingly turned towards the consortium approach. The British government was deeply hurt that the Eurofighter lost out but then the Eurofighter is not British. 


Further, while India has had a long history of collaboration with Russia, France and Britain in military aviation, it appears that some lessons have distilled out from accumulated experience. Despite the recent strategic warming of defence relations between India and the US, India and especially its armed forces appear be still extremely doubtful about US reliability as a supplier while its possible support role especially during times of conflict, which is of course crucial for armed services, is entirely untested. On the other hand, Russian reliability has been time-tested even though its reputation for reliability has suffered of late mostly due to declining capacity in post-Soviet Russia and to commercial disputes arising from both nations redefining their relationship in the new context. 


Less well-known to the Indian public, India and France have had a long and fruitful collaborative relationship in fighter aircraft and helicopters, going back to the Dassault ouragan in the 1950s. France was the only Western country not to impose sanctions after Pokhran-II while the US withdrawal of support from crucial elements of the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) set back the developmental efforts by several years and continues to deeply rankle the military and the defence R&D establishment. France was also very forthcoming during the Kargil conflict with spares and support including an urgently needed integration of Russian and Israeli avionics with the Mirage 2000 to enable it to play the vital role it did in precision targeting of infiltration infrastructure in intractable positions in the heights.


Britain of course has been an equally long-term partner with an enviable role in collaborations for the redoubtable Gnat fighter of the &#8216;60s through the Jaguar and now the hawk trainers. Yet, for all this deep partnership, the British have been prone to cause problems, withholding or delaying assistance for commercial or other reasons. It took considerable persuasion by India to resolve several difficulties with the Hawk Trainers especially as regards technology transfer for license manufacture in India.


In terms of long-term defence collaboration, therefore, it seems the IAF has decided to throw in its lot other with France and Russia for mainline fighters while going with manufacturers from Britain and even the US for support and specialized-role aircraft required in smaller numbers. 


If so, with a main combat aircraft fleet comprising the Mirage 2000 and Rafale from France, the Sukhoi-30 MkI and the futuristic 5th generation fighter to be co-developed with Russia and inducted in the mid or late 2020s, apart from the indigenous LCA, it would seem that India has all that it needs for the coming three to four decades. After the expensive Rafale acquisition, and considerably more expenditure to come on the LCA, new Sukhois, Mirage upgrades and the Russo-Indian G5 fighter, it is time India drew the line.



Whither industrial capability? As argued vigorously in these columns, these acquisitions and the technology transfer leveraged through the offsets clause, should be purposively and strategically conceptualized, planned and executed in a manner such as to ensure Indian firms acquire self-reliant autonomous capability not only in manufacture but also in design-development for the next generation. There is however no sign that this is happening. Offsets will indeed come about, sub-contracted works would be taken up by both state sector and new private sector entrants into the defence industry. But how much of this will translate into solid and lasting capability? 


There is much to be said for the much greater thoroughness and transparency that has characterized the MMRCA acquisition than in earlier contracts. But there is far less transparency in the matter of offsets. Which firms will obtain how much offsets work for the MMRCA contract? Who will decide this and how? Will these firms have the requisite experience, past track record and future vision for a strategic integration with India&#8217;s high-tech engineering capability and infrastructure? Or will we see, as in the telecom scam, real-estate companies setting up greenfield fabrication units just to make some quick money and then turn to other more profitable ventures? There is much scope for cronyism in the offsets mechanism. The political leadership in India needs to ensure that these expensive and high technology acquisitions do not simply yield costly machines dependent on equally costly external support services but are converted into long-term investments in indigenous capability and industrial strength in advanced technology.

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## sancho

sudhir007 said:


> The aircraft performance and how the user saw it fitting into not only its strategic and tactical plans but also its fleet operations and maintenance would therefore have had substantial weightage...
> 
> ...However, the Eurofighter is believed to be optimized for air superiority whereas the Rafale, with somewhat longer range and ability to carry more armaments (including, the French are believed to have stressed, nuclear weapons), is thought to have better fitted the IAFs evolving requirements...
> 
> ...If India wanted more aerial fighters, it would make far greater sense to simply buy more Su-30s than to go in for new Eurofighters. Besides, the Rafale also has a ready carrier-based version...
> 
> ...On the other hand, the Eurofighter would have been a completely new type of aircraft for the IAF, requiring all-new support systems. There may also have been some questions about Its AESA radar which is still under development.
> 
> But price must have been a very major factor indeed. Some sources have said that the Eurofighter was a good 20 percent more expensive than the Rafale in life-cycle terms. Nothing suggests that the Eurofighter has so much better performance or capabilities as to outweigh the cost disadvantage.
> 
> France is also said to have offered, and guaranteed its governments backing for, significant transfer of technology to India. This has two dimensions, both very important: first, extent of indigenization and control especially over vital technologies in times of conflict, and second cost. It is quite likely that the Rafale scored heavily over the Eurofighter on both counts...
> 
> ...Despite the recent strategic warming of defence relations between India and the US, India and especially its armed forces appear be still extremely doubtful about US reliability as a supplier while its possible support role especially during times of conflict, which is of course crucial for armed services, is entirely untested...
> 
> ...In terms of long-term defence collaboration, therefore, it seems the IAF has decided to throw in its lot other with France and Russia for mainline fighters while going with manufacturers from Britain and even the US for support and specialized-role aircraft required in smaller numbers...



Excellent article with a lot of good points, that shows why Rafale was the best package!


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## Shaurya

good news indeed.. congrats katrina


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## sancho

> *UAE, Rafale deal technical and financial terms finalized*
> 
> This week Air & Cosmos magazine confirms that all the technical and financials terms of the Rafale sale to the UAE have been settled.
> The contract signature would now, only depend on a state to state defense agreement.
> 
> Earlier this month, the National was quoting Maj Gen Khalid Al Buainnain, former commander of the UAE Air Force :
> "The technical and financial and contractual discussions have been completely finished. We're  working out how we can smooth out this contract."



Rafale News: UAE, Rafale deal technical and financial terms finalized


So much for EF will be seriously considered. 




> *IAF initiates court martial against officer*
> 
> ...The court martial against officer AK Thakur began in Bangalore recently after the court of inquiry found substance in allegations against him, officials said here on Sunday. They said the inquiry prima facie found Thakur was involved in demanding bribe from French company Dassault Aviation for allotting a more advantageous position for its Rafale aircraft in the static aircraft display section at the air show in February last year.
> 
> The matter came to light when one of the officials of the company complained against the IAF official. The French company official was also asked to appear as a witness in the court martial presided over by a Group Captain-rank officer, sources said...



IAF initiates court martial against officer


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## praveen007

*India&#8217;s arms deal draws Britain&#8217;s ire
.
Source-- http://*.
.
Source-- India&#8217;s arms deal draws Britain&#8217;s ire | idrw.org[/b]
.
.
THE Anglo-French rivalry that marked India&#8217;s
colonisation has resurfaced in a new avatar with
India preferring French Rafale over Eurofighter
Typhoon, offered by a British-led consortium in
the biggest deal for fighter aircraft in the last two
decades.
THE Anglo-French rivalry that marked India&#8217;s
colonisation has resurfaced in a new avatar with
India preferring French Rafale over Eurofighter
Typhoon, offered by a British-led consortium in
the biggest deal for fighter aircraft in the last two
decades.
By choosing the French medium multirole
combat aircraft (MMRCA), India, once the &#8220;jewel in
the British crown&#8221;, also &#8220;disappointed&#8221; Germany,
Spain and Italy.
Leaders of the four, according to India Strategic
magazine, asked India to go for &#8220;a political
decision and select this otherwise very good
aircraft but the government, at the highest levels,
decided to go by the book only&#8221;.
While details of the US$11 billion (RM33 billion)
deal are not available, the magazine says the
overall French costing was 15 per cent lower.
The Indian government announced its decision
on Jan 31, ending intense speculation, but not
lobbying perhaps, for a massive 126-aircraft deal.
Dassault Aviation will supply 18 aircraft in flyaway...
.
.
*.................. For full article please visit above link*


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## sudhir007




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## sancho

> *MMRCA, France 24 report (check the Video in the link)*



Rafale News: MMRCA, France 24 report




> *Forbes India - Rafale Revolution in Indian Airspace*
> 
> India&#8217;s defence procurement orders are a game for the patient. For over five years, a bunch of companies with ambition to grab a chunk of offsets that would accrue to our fledgling aerospace industry have awaited the decision on the multi-role fighter aircraft. The suspense ended when French aircraft manufacturer Dassault Aviation&#8217;s fighter plane Rafale was chosen as the preferred bidder...



Forbes India Magazine - Rafale Revolution in Indian Airspace




> *Ghaziabad firm Samtel Display Systemsset to fly with Rafale*
> 
> ...Though the modalities of the deal are yet to be worked out, the multibillion-dollar deal will turn out to be an important cog for the company and the way India is seen globally.
> 
> "The 126 aircraft MMRCA deal standing at $10.4 billion is the biggest defense deal in the history of the country. *Samtel will be supplying its cockpit displays to Dassault, makers of the French Rafale," informed Kaura.* The exe director explained, "Dassault has stakes in Thales which is also a French company. Samtel-Thales Joint Venture will be supplying the cockpit displays to Dassault."...
> 
> ...*The aircrafts will be loaded with Infra Red Search and Track (IRST) System*, a highly advanced technology that is capable of detecting an enemy aircraft even at a distance of 80 kilometers. Unlike the earlier technologies, IRST is stealthy, as it emits nothing. Airborne radars installed in the aircrafts emit elect6ronic beams and thus give its position to the enemy.
> 
> Mr Kaura said, "*Thales has the technology but the production will be done in our facility*." Thales is the sixth largest defense equipment manufacturer in the world with an estimated value of Rs 80,000 crore...



Ghaziabad firm Samtel Display Systemsset to fly with Rafael - The Economic Times


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## sancho

> *France comes in stronger competition for sale of fighters to Brazil*
> 
> The cancellation of the purchase of Brazilian aircraft by the United States and India's decision to buy French Rafale aircraft influence in Brazil's decision on the purchase of 36 fighters and promote competition in Paris, according to government sources and analysts.
> 
> The U.S. Air Force abruptly announced on Tuesday the cancellation of a contract of 355 million dollars for the purchase of 20 Super Tucano aircraft from Brazil's Embraer, after a legal action of its local competitor Hawker Beechcraft Corp..
> 
> The Brazilian government "received with surprise" the U.S. decision to cancel this contract, and believes that the initiative does not "contribute to the deepening defense relations between the two countries", said on Thursday the Foreign Ministry. That comes a month before the visit of President Rousseff to Washington, scheduled for April 9.
> 
> The cancellation "affect" and "will be taken into account" the Brazilian decision to buy 36 fighter planes for $ 5 billion, which compete for the Rafale, the French Dassault, the F/A-18 Super Hornet, the U.S. Boeing and Gripen NG, Saab of Sweden, completed a Brazilian government source told AFP...
> 
> ...A few days later, the defense minister undertook a trip to India. Amorim acknowledged interest in buying Indian, while ensuring that Brazil has not reached a decision. "It is very important for Brazil to exchange information (with India) but does not mean that the decision will be the same."
> 
> "The Rafale has won many points with that agreement in India," the director told AFP the specialized site Defesanet, During Nelson. But he also warned that "the three planes have a good record, and the Gripen also won points with a recent sale to Switzerland."
> 
> "If Brazil's decision this week by the fighters were, the F18 aircraft would have lost many points, but do not know what will happen soon, so in the long term is difficult to define the impact", said the expert.
> 
> But for the military analyst and retired general Alvaro Pinheiro, "everything will depend on negotiations that India do" to buy the Rafale of France: the final price and actual technology transfer represent.



Google Übersetzer


Another deal that is pretty much done now, but it seems that the Brazilians are waiting to see what price we get per unit, to get the same.


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## sudhir007

Selection of Rafale for mega defence contract final: Pallam Raju - The Economic Times

India on Friday made it clear that selection of French Rafale for the multi-billion dollar 126 fighter combat aircraft deal was final and said it does not expect contract negotiations to go wrong.

"Decision is final as far as selection is concerned," said Union Minister of State for Defence, M M Pallam Raju, when asked about Britain's statement that it would try to persuade India to look at Eurofighter Typhoon, made by a four-nation consortium, which lost the race, and New Delhi's decision was only "preliminary and not final".

Raju said contract negotiations are on with Dassault Aviation, the makers of Rafale, adding, "after all negotiations are complete, can we say that it's final".

Aked if that meant that the deal is open, Raju said: "No". "As of now, Rafale has been been finalised. That's the final thing," he said and added, "hope nothing will go wrong (in contract negotiations)".

Last month, Britain sought to raise the pitch for Eurofighter Typhoon, positioning it as the "strongest offer" in the multi-billion contract for the supply of 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) to India.

On January 31, India had announced that the Rafale fighter jet has emerged as the lowest bidder in the deal for procuring 126 combat aircraft for the Indian Air Force, edging out its European rival, EADS consortium's Eurofighter Typhoon.

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## Shaurya

Found this on U-toob it seems demo and tests have started

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## the rafter

MoD raises objections over Rafale&#8217;s lifecycle cost



> Less than two months after the Indian Air Force (IAF) chose the French Rafale fighter jet for its medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA)&#8200;project, the Ministry of Defence (MoD) has raised objections over its lifecycle cost, thereby pushing back the date by which the contract could be signed with the manufacturers, Dassault Aviation.
> 
> Top IAF sources said the two MoD&#8200;members on the Contract Negotiations Committee (CNC) have questioned the low lifecycle cost that was earlier worked out in respect of the Rafale which was chosen over the Eurofighter Typhoon for the Air Force&#8217;s MMRCA programme that envisages supply from Dassault 126 aircraft for a massive $20 billion, the largest open tender military aviation deal in the world.
> 
> *The sources said that the &#8220;differences&#8221; that have cropped up among the CNC members are centred around the Rafale&#8217;s lifecycle cost which the MoD representatives have declared to be far less than what it should be.*
> 
> *&#8220;There is no unanimity among the CNC&#8200;members... and failing a unanimous decision, the Rafale acquisition could well get pushed back,&#8221; sources said.* While the maintenance cost of a Saab-Gripen single engine aircraft is over $3,000 per hour, that of the far superior Rafale could be estimated to be much higher.
> 
> The MoD representatives&#8217; assessment that a Rafale&#8217;s lifecycle cost should be higher appears to have stemmed from the defence establishment&#8217;s historical reliance on Russian aircraft. According to sources, the MoD officials on the CNC&#8200;are &#8220;not satisfied&#8221; with the lower assessment of the lifecycle cost.
> 
> The MoD&#8217;s disagreement with other CNC&#8200;members comes at a time when the committee will also have to review other &#8220;items&#8221; involving the Rafale, including the cost of air frame, engine, avionics, weapons system and spare parts support among others. It is learnt that the MoD representatives raised their objections some time after the commercial bids were opened and continued to object to the low computation of a Rafale aircraft&#8217;s lifecycle cost in some recent meetings of the CNC.
> 
> The MoD&#8217;s maximalist stand is baffling especially after the government recently advised the armed forces to prioritise their capital acquisitions because 70 per cent of funds remain committed to approved purchases. In a situation where only 30 per cent of the available funds are left for purchases, the armed forces have been told &#8220;not to push for every deal.&#8221;
> 
> In this context, IAF&#8200;sources said that with the Air Force&#8217;s immediate requirements for jet trainers, new engines for its fleet of Jaguar fighters and heavy and light helicopters as support for ground troops, to pay for the Rafale deal, if the contract has to be signed four to five months from now, &#8220;would be a tall order.&#8221;
> 
> Dassault is in the process starting discussions with the vendors to get more clarity on the various offset possibilities and a final proposal on the same is expected to be completed by April-May. The company expects the finalisation of the award by the end of this year.
> 
> But a less optimistic senior defence ministry source said that &#8220;the 30 per cent funds corpus will not allow accommodating the MMRCA and the funds constraint will leave a big question mark over the fate of the deal,&#8221; adding that the contract signing stage with Dassault Aviation is &#8220;far away&#8221;.
> 
> When contacted over phone, MoD official spoke*sman Sitangshu Kar said,&#8200;&#8220;Everything is progressing smoothly. However, I do not have an update over the developments related to the MMRCA&#8200;over the last fortnight or so.&#8221;

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## Shaurya

^^^ looks like britan gave some extra aid to these jokers

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## sancho

the rafter said:


> MoD raises objections over Rafale&#8217;s lifecycle cost



The fact that the articles "sources" seems to compare Rafale with Gripen and possibly Russian fighters, but not with EF says it all!


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## sancho

> *Close Encounter: Typhoon and Rafale*
> 
> The RAF's No. 3(F) Squadron dispatched two of its Eurofighter Typhoons from Coningsby to France to visit the Dassault Rafale operating 1/7 Squadron at the Saint-Dizier air base...



Close Encounter: Typhoon and Rafale

Credits to Olybrius from the MP forum


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## rockstarIN

Which is this MP forum?


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## Abingdonboy

rockstar said:


> Which is this MP forum?



Military Pictures:

Military photos . net

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## the rafter

sancho said:


> The fact that the articles "sources" seems to compare Rafale with Gripen and possibly Russian fighters, but not with EF says it all!


I think its established that Eurofighter is much expensive than Rafale. Isn't that's why Rafale was selected? So why would anyone compare with it again? 
Comparison with Gripen may be because it was preferred (because it was cheaper) over Eurofighter and Rafale is Swiss competition and Russian fighters have always been cheaper to buy (but not to maintain). Get it?


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## rockstarIN

I'm sure one day LCA will meet all the capabilities Gripen have right now.


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## sancho

the rafter said:


> I think its established that Eurofighter is much expensive than Rafale. Isn't that's why Rafale was selected? So why would anyone compare with it again?
> Comparison with Gripen may be because it was preferred (because it was cheaper) over Eurofighter and Rafale is Swiss competition and Russian fighters have always been cheaper to buy (but not to maintain). Get it?



Why would somebody compare Rafale with fighters that didn't met the minimum requirements? The only cost comparison that makes sense at this stage is Rafale vs EF and here Rafale came out as the best, that's why these so called objections were wrong anyway, but it was already denied that there are such objections:



> India has confirmed that final negotiations with Dassault for 126 Rafale fighters have commenced, and that the Indian air force plans to phase out its Mikoyan MiG-21 aircraft from 2014.
> 
> The defence ministry says final talks are now under way with Dassault, which in early February secured so-called "L1 vendor" status, denoting that it was the lowest-price-compliant bidder for the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) competition.
> 
> *A defence ministry official also dismissed as false a report in an Indian publication that quoted unnamed sources as saying it had raised concerns about calculations pertaining to the Rafale's life-cycle costs.*...



India, Dassault enter final MMRCA negotiations


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## ZABASHO

rockstar said:


> I'm sure one day LCA will meet all the capabilities Gripen have right now.



thats depressing in itself mate.....


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## the rafter

sancho said:


> Why would somebody compare Rafale with fighters that didn't met the minimum requirements? The only cost comparison that makes sense at this stage is Rafale vs EF and here Rafale came out as the best, that's why these so called objections were wrong anyway, but it was already denied that there are such objections:
> 
> 
> 
> India, Dassault enter final MMRCA negotiations



Sancho, its not a comparison of technical capabilities but life-cycle cost. Indian government wants to see if Dassault lied or quoted less price just to get Rafale selected!
If Dassault did not falsify or if the news was false, then great!


----------



## sancho

the rafter said:


> Sancho, its not a comparison of technical capabilities but life-cycle cost.



I know, but the point was that you can only compare the operational costs of those that were shortlisted, anything else doesn't make sense and that was done during the evaluation of L1. That means MoD already knows about the costs of Rafale as well as EF and like all reports even from France and Germany said, Rafale is cheaper to operate, which was confirmed by the Swiss evaluation too.


----------



## the rafter

sancho said:


> I know, but the point was that you can only compare the operational costs of those that were shortlisted, anything else doesn't make sense and that was done during the evaluation of L1. That means MoD already knows about the costs of Rafale as well as EF and like all reports even from France and Germany said, Rafale is cheaper to operate, which was confirmed by the Swiss evaluation too.



I hope this answers the question:



> An MoD body called the Contract Negotiating Committee (CNC) will now engage Dassault in beating down its price, grilling Dassault&#8217;s negotiators on the calculations that determined the final price of the Rafale, scanning the costs of labour and materials that go into the fighter. For example, the CNC will find out how much titanium goes into each aircraft and then check titanium prices on the London Metal Exchange. The CNC will also vet labour costs, determining the number of skilled workmen and engineers needed to build the Rafale and multiplying that with the respective labour costs (notoriously high in France). The aim will be to demonstrate to the Dassault negotiators that the Rafale can be built cheaper than the price they have quoted. CNC negotiations will also centre on the technologies that Dassault (and its sub-vendors, like Thales) will transfer to India and the modalities for doing so. The RfP mandates that the technology for the AESA radar (which Thales builds) is to be transferred to India. The CNC will verify how that technology, and others, would actually be transferred. Offsets are another minefield that Dassault must cross, ploughing back into Indian industry at least 50% of the estimated $15-17 billion contract value of this deal. Only after these issues are resolved will a contract be actually signed. Senior IAF officers believe this could take till late-2012.


Broadsword: The Rafale&#8217;s long flight to India


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## sancho

the rafter said:


> I hope this answers the question:
> 
> An MoD body called the Contract Negotiating Committee (CNC) will now engage Dassault in beating down its price,



Buddy, this is about the current price negotiations, not about the life cycle costs you or the earlier article was talking about. The current price negotiations are about production, ToT or maybe customisation costs.


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## sancho

> *Dassault Says Indian Fighter Jet Deal Secure as Talks Intensify*
> 
> Dassault Aviation SA (AM) is confident that an accord to supply at least 126 Rafale combat planes to India will cross all hurdles as the French company intensifies negotiations to clinch the first-ever export deal for the jet.
> 
> Dassault and India are now in final talks to conclude details of the contract, after the Rafale was given preference over the competing Eurofighter jet last month, Chief Executive Officer Charles Edelstenne said in an interview in Paris. Negotiations may wrap up by the end of the year, he said...
> 
> ...&#8220;*For 15 years, we&#8217;ve been saying the Rafale costs less than the Eurofighter,&#8221; Edelstenne said. &#8220;Now it&#8217;s the Indians who are saying it*.&#8221;
> 
> Dassault will prevail against the Eurofighter in India because in every competition where the two jets have been in direct competition, the French model gained higher rankings, even if it ultimately didn&#8217;t win the final deal, the CEO said. ...
> 
> ...The French company will gradually turn over the manufacturing of its plane for the Indian market to local businesses because that was a requirement India had set for all competitors, he said. Dassault will provide the assistance required to do that.
> 
> &#8220;*Little by little, the whole plane will come to be produced in India within 10 years,&#8221; he said. &#8220;We are open to all transfers of technology, I don&#8217;t fear competition.*&#8221;



Dassault Says Indian Fighter Jet Deal Secure as Talks Intensify - Bloomberg


----------



## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> Dassault Says Indian Fighter Jet Deal Secure as Talks Intensify - Bloomberg



The most important is ToT... lets see if we get engine tech.. AESA and SPECTRA


----------



## Paan Singh

*Dassault Says Indian Fighter Jet Deal Secure as Talks Intensify*

Dassault Says Indian Fighter Jet Deal Secure as Talks Intensify - Bloomberg



> &#8220;Little by little, the whole plane will come to be produced in India within 10 years,&#8221; he said. &#8220;We are open to all transfers of technology, I don&#8217;t fear competition.&#8221;


----------



## sancho

kingdurgaking said:


> The most important is ToT... lets see if we get engine tech.. AESA and SPECTRA



Engine techs is not an issue, since they are offering even a co-development based on their upgraded M88-3 core. AESA full ToT + source codes were officially offered several times and shouldn't be an issue either. We also know that we can get HMS and IRST via Samtel and MICA ToT would be provided via Maitri SAM co-development, but the most important Rafale system is SPECTRA and I'm not sure how far ToT will go in that field.

Personally I think there could be some weapon licence productions too, the MICA deal for Mirage for example is still not confirmed by French sources, neither have the price or even the content. Also there was an RFI send out for a stand off weapon and the specs would fit Scalp / Storm Shadow. Not to forget that IAF informed themself reportedly about that weapon at MBDA UK after Libyan conflict and since they have chosen Rafale, they might have asked French MBDA or forces for infos as well.

In terms of ToT French industry and French government is clearly the most reliable partner for India, that's why so many co-developments or licence productions under ToT will be won by France. Scorpene subs, Jaguar fighters, Eurocopter helicopter, are other examples and recently there were news about Thales wining a competition for civil aviation radars too. I have no doubt that at the end we will see the EC Fennec and another Shakti engine for India as well and I still hope for the licence production of Mistral class LHDs.

As I often said, they are the perfect strategic partner for us, next to Russia, because they can provide us anything Russia can, are as reliable and independent too!


----------



## Abingdonboy

In hindsight the Rafale is clearly the way to go! I have no doubts they will be good partners to India in developing the Indian aerospace company, the MMRCA is a game hanger on that front no doubt. As a previous ACM said,with the French you will always get exactly what you pay for (he left out but should be included-unlike the Russians!).


----------



## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> Engine techs is not an issue, since they are offering even a co-development based on their upgraded M88-3 core. AESA full ToT + source codes were officially offered several times and shouldn't be an issue either. We also know that we can get HMS and IRST via Samtel and MICA ToT would be provided via Maitri SAM co-development, but the most important Rafale system is SPECTRA and I'm not sure how far ToT will go in that field.
> 
> Personally I think there could be some weapon licence productions too, the MICA deal for Mirage for example is still not confirmed by French sources, neither have the price or even the content. Also there was an RFI send out for a stand off weapon and the specs would fit Scalp / Storm Shadow. Not to forget that IAF informed themself reportedly about that weapon at MBDA UK after Libyan conflict and since they have chosen Rafale, they might have asked French MBDA or forces for infos as well.
> 
> In terms of ToT French industry and French government is clearly the most reliable partner for India, that's why so many co-developments or licence productions under ToT will be won by France. Scorpene subs, Jaguar fighters, Eurocopter helicopter, are other examples and recently there were news about Thales wining a competition for civil aviation radars too. I have no doubt that at the end we will see the EC Fennec and another Shakti engine for India as well and I still hope for the licence production of Mistral class LHDs.
> 
> As I often said, they are the perfect strategic partner for us, next to Russia, because they can provide us anything Russia can, are as reliable and independent too!



100% agreed.. no one is reliable than Russia and France for us... I hope we should get our hand on SPECTRA.. that is the most important next to Engine and AESA.. we are lacking only on these 3 areas atleast for Tejas..


----------



## PEACEMAKER2010

*Dassault Says Indian Fighter Jet Deal Secure as Talks Intensify*

Dassault Aviation SA (AM) is confident that an accord to supply at least 126 Rafale combat planes to India will cross all hurdles as the French company intensifies negotiations to clinch the first-ever export deal for the jet.

Dassault and India are now in final talks to conclude details of the contract, after the Rafale was given preference over the competing Eurofighter jet last month, Chief Executive Officer Charles Edelstenne said in an interview in Paris. Negotiations may wrap up by the end of the year, he said. 

Selling the Rafale to India would mark a major victory for Edelstenne, who has had to rely on France as the aircrafts sole customer. The Indian backing for the $11 billion contract has boosted Dassaults hopes it can also prevail in Brazil, and help raise production rates of the Rafale that are now hovering at the minimum of one a month, the CEO said.

For 15 years, weve been saying the Rafale costs less than the Eurofighter, Edelstenne said. Now its the Indians who are saying it.

Dassault will prevail against the Eurofighter in India because in every competition where the two jets have been in direct competition, the French model gained higher rankings, even if it ultimately didnt win the final deal, the CEO said.

Edelstenne said Dassault can easily boost production to two or three Rafales a month or more if needed, depending on what other orders the company may win. Beyond Brazil and the United Arab Emirates, Dassault is also pitching the plane to other export prospects he said, including Malaysia.
Fighting Back

Dassault has already delivered 106 of 180 fighters ordered by France, which has said it will order 286 planes over the lifetime of the plane. Edelstenne said Indias naming Dassault as lowest-bidder would help generally export prospects .

British Prime Minister David Cameron has said he would keep fighting for the Eurofighter Typhoon, partly built by BAE Systems Plc (BA/), to get back into the contest. Louis Gallois, the CEO of European Aeronautic, Defence & Space Co. (EAD), said yesterday the only way for his company to get back to into the contest is if talks between Dassault and the Indian side fall through.

Until India decided on the Rafale, Dassault had failed to win any export contracts for the aircraft, losing out in a half dozen competitions to countries including Singapore, South Korea, Morocco, the Netherlands, and Switzerland.

U.S. manufacturers beat Dassault in all those contests except in Switzerland, where Saab AB (SAABB)s Gripen has been pre- selected. The company still hasnt given up in Switzerland, Edelstenne said, citing a review of the decision process.
Long Relations

Dassaults relations with India date back 60 years. India was the very first export customer for Dassault, ordering 71 Ouragans in June 1953, and India has purchased most Dassault models sold since. India replaced the Ouragans with Dassaults Mystere IV A in 1957, procuring 104 in 1957 and using them in 1961 for air strikes against the Portuguese colony of Daman.

The French company will gradually turn over the manufacturing of its plane for the Indian market to local businesses because that was a requirement India had set for all competitors, he said. Dassault will provide the assistance required to do that.

Little by little, the whole plane will come to be produced in India within 10 years, he said. We are open to all transfers of technology, I dont fear competition.

Dassault Says Indian Fighter Jet Deal Secure as Talks Intensify - Bloomberg


----------



## the rafter

http://www.deccanchronicle.com/channels/cities/hyderabad/rafale-aircraft-shunned-all-countries-708



> Telugu Desam MP M.V. Mysoora Reddy, in his complaint dated February 27, 2012, had demanded an inquiry into the evaluation process that finalised the L-1 contractor (Dassault) for procurement of the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft without looking into their efficiency and other aspects. &#8220;The alleged manipulation of the evaluation process in picking the L-1 contractor, which resulted in a decision to procure 126 MMRCA (from Dassault), has raised serious apprehensions not only across the country but also worldwide. If a proper decision is not taken, the country's credibility will be at stake,&#8221; Dr Reddy wrote.
> 
> &#8220;Officials in the ministry of defence violated the evaluation process and arrived at (by manipulation) an incorrect decision with regard to the France-produced Rafale Aircraft as L-1,&#8221; he wrote. He stated, &#8220;I am also given to understand that the Rafale aircraft has not been sold to any country. Why should India buy a combat aircraft that no other country has purchased? In Libya, in the war against Gaddafi, the Rafale had failed in precision bombing and finally the Typhoon was inducted. The UAE too has rejected the Rafale.&#8221;
> 
> He demanded that the inquiry must be completed within 30 days, that those who manipulated the evaluation process be punished. In his reply, Mr Antony stated, &#8220;The ministry was asked to examine all the points raised by Dr Mysoora Reddy&#8221;




Antony tells MoD to probe rafale deal | The Asian Age



> Defense minister A.K. Antony has ordered his ministry to probe allegations of irregularities and manipulation of the evaluation process while picking the French company Dassault for the purchase of 126 fighter aircraft worth about Rs. 50,000 crore.
> India had picked Dassault&#8217;s Rafale over the Typhoon of EADS, an European consortium.
> Mr Antony took the decision after receiving a complaint from TD Rajya Sabha member M.V. Mysoora Reddy. Replying to Dr Reddy, Mr Antony said he had asked the MoD to examine all the points raised in the complaint.
> In his complaint dated February 27, 2012, Dr Reddy had demanded an enquiry into the evaluation process that finalised the L-1 contractor for procurement of the MMRCA without looking into their efficiency and other aspects.
> &#8220;The alleged manipulation of the evaluation process in picking the L-1 contractor, which resulted in a decision to procure 126 MMRCA, has raised serious apprehensions not only across the country but also worldwide. If a proper decision is not taken, the country&#8217;s credibility will be at stake,&#8221; Dr Reddy wrote.




*Eurofighter 'stands ready' to renegotiate MMRCA bid with India*



> The partner nations of the Eurofighter consortium "stand ready" to enter into further discussions with India regarding its selection of Dassault's Rafale over the Eurofighter Typhoon, according to UK Defence Minister Gerald Howarth.
> 
> IHS Jane's understands that a revised Typhoon bid has been submitted to India for its Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) requirement.
> 
> The bid's greatest hope of success would appear to rest on a more attractive offset package than Dassault's, given that India selected the Rafale because it offered the lowest price.
> 
> India's procurement is expected to be worth more than USD13.5 billion and Dassault will need to invest about half of the contract value in local defence sector offsets.
> 
> Per unit, the Typhoon bid is thought to have been more expensive than the Rafale, while operational costs would also have had a bearing on India's decision. IHS Jane's understands that Dassault's total package price was bid at about 15 per cent to 17 per cent less than that from Eurofighter and that the Rafale was about USD5 million cheaper than the Typhoon per aircraft.
> 
> Howarth, the minister for International Security Strategy, said during a parliamentary debate on 7 March that the Eurofighter consortium and its partner nations "stand ready to enter into further discussions with the Indian Government, should that be their wish".
> 
> Howarth highlighted the role played by EADS subsidiary Cassidian in the contest, adding: "In this case, the UK is not and never has been in the lead. The campaign in India has been led from the outset by Germany and EADS Cassidian, not by the UK and BAE Systems."
> 
> IHS Jane's has previously highlighted the potential benefits of a bid led by BAE Systems. Analysts have pointed to the long-standing historical ties between India and the UK and between BAE Systems and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), the latter of which will build the majority of the aircraft in India.
> 
> Howarth's assertion that the Eurofighter consortium is ready to rebid for MMRCA follow his comments in February that Cassidian was formulating a "fresh price proposal" for the contest.
> 
> He added: "If the decision turned only on price, Cassidian will put in a revised price offer. The four nations [constituting the Eurofighter consortium of Germany, Italy, Spain and the UK] can produce a winning financial proposal, and I fully expect that Cassidian will be doing that.
> 
> "We believe that getting the best value for money would be in the best interests of the government of India, but it is not for us to suggest what New Delhi should do."
> 
> Howarth's comments were carried by India's Business Standard news service on 9 February and confirmed to IHS Jane's by the UK Ministry of Defence (MoD).
> 
> India's MoD announced on 31 January that Rafale had beaten Typhoon in the MMRCA contest to provide the Indian Air Force (IAF) with 126 aircraft: a decision that gives Rafale its first export order.
> 
> Dassault has entered final negotiations with India and an initial deal is expected to be signed around the start of April.


http://search.janes.com/Search/docu...http://search.janes.com/Search&Prod_Name=JDW&


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## sancho

the rafter said:


> had demanded an inquiry into the evaluation process that finalised the L-1 contractor...without looking into their efficiency and other aspects...In Libya, in the war against Gaddafi, *the Rafale had failed in precision bombing and finally the Typhoon was inducted.*



This "news"paper gets more and more hilarious!

The Janes article is interesting though:



> Per unit, the Typhoon bid is thought to have been more expensive than the Rafale, while operational costs would also have had a bearing on India's decision. *IHS Jane's understands that Dassault's total package price was bid at about 15 per cent to 17 per cent less than that from Eurofighter* and that the Rafale was about USD5 million cheaper than the Typhoon per aircraft.



It was clear that the EF partners would reduce the unit cost by far from the normal price, because these are mainly their T3B orders, which they simply divert to India. On the other side, the part about the package price confirms reports from France as well.


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## the rafter

sancho said:


> This "news"paper gets more and more hilarious!



Indeed that statement is hilarious, but, an inquiry could mean further delays in contract negotiations. 
I also hate the leverage of financial aid UK is trying to use to put pressure on India for the MMRCA deal.


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## sancho

the rafter said:


> Indeed that statement is hilarious, but, an inquiry could mean further delays in contract negotiations.
> I also hate the leverage of financial aid UK is trying to use to put pressure on India for the MMRCA deal.



If the claims about an inquiry and the comments of the DM are true, but I have some big doubts on it. Check what the same source reported earlier:



> The Rafale and the Typhoon met most of the 630 technical attributes mentioned in the request for proposal (RFP) by the ministry of defence, while the others lacked either in performance or had limitations in terms of future upgrades.
> 
> &#8220;*Rafale figures a notch higher than Typhoon in terms of performance* and involves easier adaptability as it is logistically and operationally similar to Mirage-2000, used extensively by our boys during the Kargil conflict in 1999. The French government has also cleared the technology transfer, including the AESA (active electronically scanned array) radar,&#8221; sources in the IAF told Deccan Chronicle.



Rafale, Typhoon score on merit | Deccan Chronicle


Not sure which author wrote the latest article, but he's obviously not reliable.


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## sancho

Interesting things about Rafale and MMRCA from the latest Air & Cosmos magazin:









> *Who could work with Dassault ?*
> 
> Air & Cosmos , march 9
> 
> To fulfill the conditions of the MoD in matter of offsets, Dassault Aviation will not only work with large state firms like *HAL* and *Bharat Electronics*, the champion of Indian radars. The MoD wants also to promote the industrial private sector. Its agency for offsets, the Dofa, has referenced fifty players capable of producing equipment or systems for the Indian Rafale. These include *Bharat Heavy Electricals*, a diversified group which manufactures flight simulators and avionics, *Larsen & Toubro* (sensors, radars ...), *Samtel* (cockpit equipment, navigation), the latter being a partner of Thales for renovation of the Indian Mirage 2000 through a JV. There are also *Alpha-ITL *Electro Optics and *Memory Electronics*, which manufactures optronic equipment, or groups not necessarily specialists in matter of defense, like *Reliance* (who just signed an agreement with Dassault), *Mahindra & Mahindra* and *Tata Power*. The latter has created a division in combat systems and data link. Without forgetting *ECIL*, which manufactures joysticks and black boxes, or Precision Electronics, specialist in cabling.
> In contrast, the Dofa list has few industrial specialized in aerostructures: there is Aurora Integrated Systems and Infra Polytec. Logically, this area is the prerogative of HAL.





> *Indian Rafale: how Dassault is preparing:*
> 
> Air & Cosmos , March 9
> 
> The manufacturer has six to eight months to prove it can meet the requirements of the Indian authorities in matter of offsets and technology transfers. A short delay , especially as the local industry has still many gaps to fill...
> 
> ...*The Indians landed at Dassault.*
> 
> But the Indians are in a hurry. The MoD announced its intention to sign a definitive contract eight months after the annoucement around September-October. " *Since the beginning of February, Indians have sent their best staff in St. Cloud, dozens of brilliant graduates to form working groups with Dassault teams *"said a source familiar with the matter...



Credits to Olybrius from the MP forum


Edit:

Weapon additions to the new Rafale versions will include Meteor in A2A, GBU 49 (a modernised version of the 250KG LGB Rafale uses now and GBU 24 1000Kg heavy LGB, also used as bunker busters).

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## sancho




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## sancho

Interesting for India as well:



> *Libya may get ex-UAE Mirage 2000s*
> 
> Libya may procure the United Arab Emirates 68 Mirage 2000 fighters once the UAE replaces them with Rafales.
> 
> Brigadier General Abdel-Moneim said Ayad, Director of Public Relations at Libyas Interior Ministry, was quoted by the Middle East News Agency (MENA) as saying that the UAE has offered to transfer to Libya its 68 Dassault Mirage 2000s.
> 
> The UAE is considering replacing its Mirage 2000s with Rafales. Air & Cosmos magazine recently reported that all the technical and financial terms of the Rafale sale have been settled and that only a state to state defence agreement is necessary for the deal to go ahead...



http://www.defenceweb.co.za/index.p...ae-mirage-2000s&catid=35:Aerospace&Itemid=107


At the same time in France:



> *Dassault and Thales are activated for the Rafale Emirates*
> 
> Negotiations for 60 Rafale accelerate before the presidential election. The industrial control is for being put in place.
> 
> While negotiations are accelerating on the sale of 60 Rafale United Arab Emirates (UAE) - a signature before the presidential election is raised - *Dassault Aviation and its subcontractors themselves in order to respond to this command. An evolution of the industrial production of Spectra self-protection system will be implemented by the end of the site *Thales Elancourt (Yvelines). *It corresponds to the specifications of the specifications of the Emirates.*...



Google Übersetzer


So not only that the M2K-9 and Rafale deals are close to beeing fixed, French industry is already preparing the technical changes of Rafale according to UAEs specifications. That gives IAF and possibly IN of course also the chance to benefit from improved SPECTRA capabilities, as well as other features the UAE might fund (early Meteor integration, additional weapon stations, possibly integration of some US weapons).


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## rockstarIN

Cant we try to get those UAE M2k s? as they are the upgraded standard?


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## SpArK

rockstar said:


> Cant we try to get those UAE M2k s? as they are the upgraded standard?



Its getting transferred to Libya.


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## rockstarIN

SpArK said:


> Its getting transferred to Libya.



I know, but instead of spending 2-3 billion, we should have got those upgraded jets.


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## sancho

rockstar said:


> I know, but instead of spending 2-3 billion, we should have got those upgraded jets.



- UAE Mirage are available only from 2014/15 onwards, when they will get first Rafales, while our Mirage will be upgraded now
- UAE and Qatari Mirage are said to be costly although 2nd hand
- buying them instead of an upgrade, gives HAL now chance of learning to overhaul the fighters, which seems to be one of the prime interests of MoD with the upgrade

So it's not that easy as it seems.


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## sancho

> INTERVIEW
> 
> *Eric Trappier (Dassault): "India is a signature of the Rafale contract in six months"*
> 
> Despite the battering of BAE who tries to deliver the Eurofighter in the race, Dassault expects to conclude the first sale of Rafale abroad this year. The decision of New Delhi has had a ripple effect on other ongoing campaigns, says the director of international aircraft manufacturer.
> 
> *In India, the Rafale has won the tender for the purchase of 126 combat aircraft. What could stop exclusive negotiations now?*
> 
> I see no reason why we can go after and bring the Indians to stop when they have done the hard part. The procedure started in 2007. After several weeks of evaluations in extreme conditions, the slopes of the Himalayas to the desert sands, the Air Force selected two aircraft: the Rafale and Eurofighter. Ultimately, it is the lowest bid that won both in terms of unit cost of the device itself and its maintenance over time. *Everything was conducted on the basis of criteria set in advance and have been scrupulously observed, without political involvement. This tender is exemplary.*
> 
> *When do you expect to find?*
> 
> *The Indians want to go fast, and considering a conclusion in about six months*. We need to finalize the terms technical and industrial, and build a contract whose terms are equivalent to those of the Mirage 2000 (signed in 2000, Ed).
> 
> *BAE has been suggested that the Eurofighter could get back on track ...*
> 
> I do not believe, and I am surprised that some people are themselves surprised that the Rafale has prevailed. In all competitions where the two planes were opposed, the Eurofighter has been eliminated in the first round, as in Korea, the Netherlands, and Brazil, *where he was ranked behind the Rafale, as in India*. Or in Switzerland, as evidenced by the evaluation report of the armed forces published in the press. I add that the calculations of the Court of Accounts UK show that the Eurofighter is much more expensive. Operationally then, the Rafale has proved its versatility during Operation Harmattan, unlike the Eurofighter was conceived as a pure fighter. The tender has appointed Indian clearly the best aircraft.
> 
> *At what price? Have you offered cheaper than that sold to France?*
> 
> *The price of the Rafale in India is offered at French prices*, adjusted for expenses related to the contract since *it is not quite the same technical configuration*, and that manufacturing will be in part locally. The competition was so tough that each side had to offer the best possible price. That said, we have not done dumping to win. A iso-conditions, we proposed the price of French Rafale.
> *
> Of the 126 units planned, only 18 will be manufactured in France. Should we expect limited industrial benefits?*
> 
> The IRB will not match the production of 126 Rafale in France, but not to build a few copies. Technology transfer will be done gradually and there will be no global licensing agreement, but licensing agreements for each device. In other words, each device will live his own life and its production in India will obey a rise own. The goal is that India is capable of manufacturing Rafale, but there will always be some activity in France. On the whole, the contract will employ tens of thousands of people...
> 
> ...*The Rafale is again given winner in Brazil. Or is tendering?*
> 
> The choice of New Delhi has had a ripple effect on our other campaigns. We do not overestimate, but we do not underestimate either, because it allows us to pass a number of messages. *Following a procedure very professional*, India has rejected our competitors American, Russian, Swedish and European. This is not indifferent to the country that launched a tender. As in Brazil, where the Rafale is opposed to Boeing's F-18 and Saab Gripen, who both were eliminated in the first round in India. That said, today, the tender in Brazil remains frozen. The ball is in the camp of the Brazilian government.



Google Übersetzer


The respect for IAF and MoD which had impressed by the professional way they handled the competition is very high around the world. Even the manufacturers that lost out like the US once, stated this!

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## rockstarIN

sancho said:


> - UAE Mirage are available only from 2014/15 onwards, when they will get first Rafales, while our Mirage will be upgraded now
> - UAE and Qatari Mirage are said to be costly although 2nd hand
> - buying them instead of an upgrade, gives HAL now chance of learning to overhaul the fighters, which seems to be one of the prime interests of MoD with the upgrade
> 
> So it's not that easy as it seems.



If they will give us with weapon package, whats the issue....the price of upgrade,suppose 2 billion (which allotted to upgrade Indian M2Ks) can be useful to buy at least 50 such UAE M2ks @40 million. (even without weapon package, it is okay) and about the timeline..we will complete the upgrade only in 2020. So why not buying those second hand? Note that UAESF's Mirages are not as old as Indian M2ks. we are using M2ks for decades and there will not be any air frame change in our proposed upgrade.



sancho said:


> Google Übersetzer
> 
> 
> The respect for IAF and MoD which had impressed by the professional way they handled the competition is very high around the world. Even the manufacturers that lost out like the US once, stated this!



Also note that they are very protective in TOT


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## Yeti

India is in final negotiations with Dassault Aviation, a French aircraft manufacturer of military and business jets, for supply of 126 Rafale fighters.

The Indian Air Force plans to dispose of its Mikoyan MiG-21 aircraft from 2014 and replace them with Rafale fighters. Although the Mikoyan MiG-21s are popular among pilots, they are now obsolete and there have been several fatal crashes in recent years.




Mikoyan MiG-21, India's current fighter fleet.

The Indian Defence Ministry announced that Dassault secured an "L1 vendor" status after being selected as the lowest-price bidder who complied with all the requirements in the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) competition.

With "L1 vendor" status, Dassault is now conducting final negotiations for the deal with India's Contract Negotiation Committee (CNC), which consists of the defence program&#8217;s main stakeholders, namely the Indian air force and Hindustan Aeronautics; a state-owned company managed by the Indian Ministry of Defence. The company will build some of the Rafale fighters domestically.




Dassault Rafale fighter, the aircraft India plan to replace their MIG's with.

Hindustan Aeronautics manufactures and assembles aircraft from its base in Bangalore, and is one of Asia's largest aerospace companies. The negotiations between Dassault and the CNC are expected to take 6-12 months.

The value of the MMRCA contest is estimated to be between $10 billion and $20 billion. Other competing aircrafts were Eurofighter Typhoon, Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, RSK MiG-35, Lockheed Martin F-16IN Super Viper and Saab Gripen NG. Rafale was selected as the preferred aircraft.

The Indian Defence Ministry officials dismissed false reports in Indian publications that stated there were concerns about the Rafale's life-cycle 


India and Dassault in Final MMRCA Negotiations - Aviation News


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## sancho

rockstar said:


> If they will give us with weapon package, whats the issue



Why should they give us their weapons, that they plan to use with Rafale?



rockstar said:


> can be useful to buy at least 50 such UAE M2ks @40 million.



That's speculation my friend, half of them are brand new and UAE just cleared another upgrade for several 100 millions, so don't expect them to be cheap at all. We I remember correctly, Qatar asked around $700 millions for the 12 x Mirage 2000-5s! And as mentioned, the most important point of IAF / MoD seems to be the upgrade at HAL, while I would have prefered an upgrade at Dassault, cheaper and faster.



rockstar said:


> and about the timeline..we will complete the upgrade only in 2020.



That's a media myth, why on earth should HAL need 8 years to upgrade less than 50 fighters, when they plan to licence produce 108 Rafales in 7 years? The same BS that was reported about the $500 millions for an upgrade facility, nothing of that was confirmed so far, just like the MICA deal.


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## sancho

> *First MMRCA squadron to be inducted soon*
> 
> New Delhi: The first squadron of Medium-Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) consisting of 18 aircraft is expected to be inducted into the IAF within three to four years of signing of the contract with its supplier.
> 
> In reply to a question on delivery of MMRCA, Defence Minister A K Antony told Lok Sabha today, "First squadron of MMRCA consisting of 18 aircraft is expected to be inducted within three to four years of signing of contract."
> 
> "The remaining 108 aircraft will be manufactured under license by Hindustan Aeronautical Limited (HAL) and are expected to be inducted over the following seven years," he said...



First MMRCA squadron to be inducted soon


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## The enlightened

> First MMRCA squadron to be inducted soon


yea
If by soon they mean 5-6 years.


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## sancho

The enlightened said:


> yea
> If by soon they mean 5-6 years.





> within three to four years of signing of contract



The contract will be signed this year for sure, reports from France clearly shows that we want to speed up the negotiations, which means that the first squad will be available by 2015. Personally I think the French will be able to deliver it earlier too, but we will see how long IAF needs to set up training and logistical support.


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## sancho

Crossposting from MP Forum:














> *France Still Mulling Dual-Mode Brimstone*
> 
> The French military is still exploring whether to acquire the MBDA Dual-Mode Brimstone (DMB) used heavily by the Royal Air Force during last year's Libya air war.
> 
> DMB is only one of several options being considered, though. The interest is driven mainly by the low-collateral-damage nature of the weapon, says MBDA CEO Antoine Bouvier.
> 
> A French program would be developed for the air force, with the service undertaking a study examining other options. The French navy so far has not shown interest.
> 
> *If France goes ahead with the program, the U.K. weapon could be integrated on Rafale before the Eurofighter Typhoon*. The U.K. has yet to fund integration of DMB on Typhoon; the weapon is currently used on Tornado GR4s.



France Still Mulling Dual-Mode Brimstone


Credits to Olybrius


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## palash_kol

t50russiandragon said:


> Please buy the Russian Su-35 and not the Rafale.



Everywhere you are shouting for Mig-35 and Su-35!!!!!! 

Though Su-35 was a considerable option......Mig-35 is a crap.


----------



## the rafter

IAF's Rafale deal faces delay



> Allegations of irregularities in the Indian Air Force's (IAF) deal for 126 fighter aircraft are likely to delay, not derail the $18 billion (Rs.90,000 crore) deal. Defence Minister A.K. Antony ordered a departmental probe into his ministry's January 31 decision to shortlist French firm Dassault to supply the aircraft.
> 
> Antony's move came soon after doubts were raised about the evaluation process by an MP.
> 
> In January, India announced that Dassault had emerged as the lowest bidder for the contract to supply 126 Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA). The Dassault Rafale multi-role combat jet edged out its closest competitor, the Eurofighter Typhoon, to emerge the cheapest bidder in the world's largest open tender defence contract. On February 27, Telugu Desam Party's Rajya Sabha MP M.V. Mysura Reddy wrote to Antony alleging deviations in procedure. *Officials involved in negotiations say the probe will delay the deal by only a "month or two"*. Ministry of Defence (MoD) expects the deal to be signed before March 31, 2013.
> 
> In February, MoD-appointed Contract Negotiations Committee (CNC), comprising the defence ministry's stakeholders, opened negotiations with Dassault. The final proposal will be put before the Cabinet Committee on Security early next year. "*The formula for calculating the cheapest aircraft was re-totalled three times, by MoD and IAF," an official told India Today. The controversy arose because mod used 'life cycle costs' to select its finalist. As per this formula, the cheapest aircraft would not be the one with the lowest upfront cost. It would be the aircraft that worked out to be the cheapest over the aircraft's 30-year life cycle. The formula took into account variables like maintenance and engine replacement.*
> 
> Sources say the Rafale aircraft was $5 million (Rs.250 crore) cheaper than the Typhoon. *Losing finalists like the European Consortium found fault with the formula even as European diplomats made fresh proposals to lower the rates of the Typhoon. MoD, however, signalled that the door was shut as it began CNC with Dassault in February.* Reddy's letter to Antony has, however, added a twist to the tale.

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## SinoChallenger

the rafter said:


> IAF's Rafale deal faces delay


LOL not surprising. In the time it took india to decide on which 4.5 generation fighter aircraft to buy, China already built and tested our 5th generation J-20.


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## NirmalKrish

SinoChallenger said:


> LOL not surprising. In the time it took india to decide on which 4.5 generation fighter aircraft to buy, China already built and tested our 5th generation J-20.



In which it is a prototype and still in testing phase as with the T-50 and FGFA program. Your point is?


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## sancho

> *Mum on India*
> 
> Today Charles Edelstenne, the CEO of Dassault Aviation, presenting the company's annual results, threw a glimmer of light on one of the reasons his company is now negotiating a contract to supply India with 126 Rafale fighter aircraft. India corresponds to the definition we have of our market: that is to say countries that either cannot or do not want to buy American or countries that buy American but want to have a second source. And he explained that none of the countries, except two, that the Rafale has lost competitions in, met that definition...
> 
> ...Returning to India, Edelstenne also remarked that the British Audit Office itself had written that the Eurofighter was more expensive than the Typhoon and he added that if France had stayed in the Eurofighter program it would be costing the French taxpayer 60% more than the Rafale did for the same number of aircraft...



Mum on India


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## angeldemon_007

> LOL not surprising. In the time it took india to decide on which 4.5 generation fighter aircraft to buy, China already built and tested our 5th generation J-20.


Good for you, but i think first you should concentrate on making an engine and a radar for you 5th gen aircraft. I am saying this because if won't then our Rafale will also appear to be a 5th gen for you J20. You see, a 5th gen aircraft will be the one which won't be detected or locked on by the enemy radar. With the thales latest gen aesa radar, which changes frequency ever second your mediocre radar won't be be able to lock on its position and hence J20 won't be able to shoot down Rafale, while the old Soviet engine won't hide J20's position and Rafale will able to shoot down J20.

Now don't get emotional, these are scientific facts not fanboy stuff. J20 is nothing unless it gets a good engine and a good aesa radar.


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## tvsram1992

palash_kol said:


> Everywhere you are shouting for Mig-35 and Su-35!!!!!!
> 
> Though Su-35 was a considerable option......*Mig-35 is a crap*.


Then what do you think our Mig29SMT/K are?


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## angeldemon_007

> he added that if France had stayed in the Eurofighter program it would be costing the French taxpayer 60% more than the Rafale did for the same number of aircraft


That is load of crap...just imagine what kind of aircraft EF would be then. I mean the best....as far as as cost is concerned, French would have shared a major part of development cost and not to mention the French order 180 Rafale and this number could have have been EF if they would have stayed in the program. I would say the EF cost would have reduced 10-20 million$ per unit and may be more.


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## palash_kol

tvsram1992 said:


> Then what do you think our Mig29SMT/K are?



For IN its ok...but not a very good option..


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## the rafter

SinoChallenger said:


> LOL not surprising. In the time it took india to decide on which 4.5 generation fighter aircraft to buy, China already built and tested our 5th generation J-20.



LOL its equally surprising that China being most populated country in the world, 2nd largest in terms of land, 2nd largest economy and also in growth (GDP), but still stuck with a 5th gen jet prototype? No engine (have to use Russian engine)? reverse engineering Russian jets?
And you want to take pride by criticizing India's progress? how immature!

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## tvsram1992

palash_kol said:


> For IN its ok...but not a very good option..


what about our upgraded SMT's ? Arent they crap ?


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## janon

tvsram1992 said:


> what about our upgraded SMT's ? Arent they crap ?



They are capable of taking on any aircraft that flies in our neighbourhood. To the west or east.

But nowhere as futuristic as the MRCA, which will retain that ability for the next 20+years.


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## sudhir007



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## Beast

I will say IAF chooses rafale as the winner is a smart choice. I bet it will serve as carrier fighter of future IN CV. Probably IN will follow up another order of the naval version.

Even RN might be forced to buy rafale if F-35 project fails.


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## sancho

> *Brazil's Rousseff to weigh French jet buy in India*
> 
> President Dilma Rousseff plans to use her New Delhi visit later this week to sound out Indian leaders on the French Rafale fighter jet, which she is considering buying to beef up Brazil's air force...
> 
> ...The next day Rousseff will begin a state visit in India, and *officials say the Rafale, which India has selected for its air force, will be a top agenda item*.
> 
> The Rafale, made by French firm Dassault, is in competition with the F/A-18 Super Hornet, manufactured by US aviation giant Boeing, and Swedish manufacturer Saab's Gripen jet, for a Brazilian contract for 36 aircraft valued at $4 billion and $7 billion.
> 
> "*The exchange of ideas, impressions" on the Rafale "is certainly beneficial for us*," Maria Edileuza Fonteneles Reis, a senior foreign ministry official, said last week...
> 
> ...Brazilian Defense Minister Celso Amorim traveled to India in February to discuss prospects for a "technical military accord."
> 
> "*It's extremely interesting that the two countries are discussing a military accord*" since each country could complement each other in the industrial sector, said During, recalling that India and Brazil plan to modernize their fighter jet fleet and develop a nuclear submarine...



AFP: Brazil&#39;s Rousseff to weigh French jet buy in India


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## sancho

> *Europe Poised For Gradual Updates To Fighters*
> 
> The severe budget austerity gripping much of Europe does not augur well for air forces looking to achieve leaps in capability for the next decade. It is somewhat a matter of luck, then, that foreign demand is effectively pushing stingy treasuries to provide funding to field upgrades...
> 
> ...One country trying to lock in its combat aircraft plans over the coming months is Sweden, where the government is working to allocate funds to help field the Saab Gripen NG, the next major update of the single-engine fighter. *Although Sweden itself does not need the new model for several years, the government had committed to accelerate its own fielding plans to support the schedule set by any foreign buyer*. Switzerlands decision in December to take the aircrafta contract still has to be finalized this yearmeans Swedens own plans will be advanced. Bern wants its first fighter in 2015 to replace F-5s...
> 
> ...For the core air forces operating the Eurofighter Typhoon, the issue of both near- and long-term upgrades must still be sorted. For example, the British and German air forces, as well as Italian and Spanish users, have all expressed interest in upgrading the fighters radar with an AESA, *although they have not allocated funding for this endeavor. Instead, they have relied on industry self-funding much of the early development because of the need to keep the combat aircraft internationally competitive.
> While hoping to have a raft of Typhoon upgrades available by March 2018, the U.K. so far has failed to address when key elements of those enhancementssuch as the Storm Shadow cruise missile and Meteor air-to-air missilewill emerge on the fighter. *
> 
> The situation is more settled in France, at least for now. *Partly because of Frances determination to secure an export order for Rafale, the government moved to finance upgrades* to the twin-engine fighter in order to make the system attractive in international competitions. *That push, more than the needs of the French air force and navy, drove Paris to allocate funding several years ago to ensure upgrades* to the REB2 radar, optronics (electro-optical) system and electronic warfare equipment (the DDM-NG). The F3-04T standard is due for qualification this year, ahead of delivery in 2013.



Shows how different the future potential of the Eurocanards is, while Rafale is in good shape, Sweden at least tries to further develop the Gripen and a deal with Switzerland will be a big help of course. EF on the other side is totally dependent on exports or fundings by Saudi Arabia now, otherwise not only the production will be closed soon, but the further developments will be much limited to certain upgrades only, especially when the partners keeps upgrading older fighters instead of EF:



> ...*Germany, for example, which is unwilling to buy more Eurofighters or to fund enhancements that would enable them take on additional roles, also is financing an upgrade drive for its Tornado fleet.* The plan is to keep the aircraft operational until 2025not just in its strike role, but also as a tactical reconnaissance asset and suppression of enemy air defense system...



Also interesting wrt Rafale F5:



> ...In addition, France will face another series of Rafale upgrades in the next decade as military leaders seek to prepare the backbone of their combat aircraft fleet for a major mid-life modification. Thus, the shopping list is long and still includes radical ideas such as *adding conformal radar arrays to provide enhanced sensor coverage and radar-cross-section reductions*...



Europe Poised For Gradual Updates To Fighters | AVIATION WEEK


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## RPK

Howarth in India to discuss Typhoon deal - Defence Management

*Howarth in India to discuss Typhoon deal*
27 March 2012 

Defence Minister Gerald Howarth is flying to India today in a bid to rescue a $10bn contract to sell Typhoon fast jets to the Indian Air Force.

French firm Dassault's Rafale was chosen as lowest-priced offer in the 126-jet Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MRCA) contract in late January, but suggestions of "manipulation" in the bidding process are currently being investigated after complaints from an Indian MP.

The suggestions were made by Mysura Reddy, who wrote to India's Defence Minister AK Antony to say he was surprised to learn of the Rafale's win as it had "failed in precision bombing" over Libya and had secured no other export orders.

Referring to unspecified reports of irregularities in the bid, Reddy wrote that the Indian defence ministry "must ensure there has been no manipulation in the evaluation process".

In response, Antony agreed to investigate "all points" raised by Reddy, and said he would be prepared to cancel the contract if evidence of manipulation was found.

Howarth, UK Minister for International Security Strategy, last visited India in early February to discuss offering a reduction in the price offered for the Typhoon jets.

Speaking in the House of commons on 26 March, Howarth said he took reports of bid irregularities "very seriously".

"I have read the reports about the internal investigation that Minister Antony, the Defence Minister in India, has instigated. I shall be flying to India tomorrow, where I hope to have discussions with Indian Ministers and other officials."

Howarth also responded to criticism that German officials had led the Typhoon bidding process in India, despite the UK benefiting from better relations with the Indian government.

"The previous government decided that the project would be led by the Germans, despite all the connections the UK has with India," said Howarth.

"We and BAE Systems are taking a very active part not only in preparing ourselves in case the Indians would like us to resubmit and talk to us again, but in discussions with EADS, Cassidian, the German government and our other two partners.

"We are also working very hard on the export drive to make up for the loss and damage done by Labour when it was in government."

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## Abingdonboy

^^^ Oh just STFU Britain/EADs you lost, get over it!

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## Yeti

Thats the British spirit never give up


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## tvsram1992

^^^
65 years ago Brits were ruling us and now they were begging(no offense) us . Power of time .

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## janon

Abingdonboy said:


> ^^^ Oh just STFU Britain/EADs you lost, get over it!





Yeti said:


> Thats the British spirit never give up



Reminds me of the black knight from monty python. "tis but a flesh wound!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKhEw7nD9C4

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## sancho

Yeti said:


> Thats the British spirit never give up



When you are desperate to reduce costs and get a funder for new developments of the fighter, you can't give up.


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## RPK




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## gslv

rafale deal again in jeopardy?

Exclusive: India's biggest defence deal in jeopardy? - Video | The Times of India

what the hell is this. i am worried again about MMRCA!!!


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## angeldemon_007

^^^
Don't worry...Rafale is better than Typhoon. The politician who is making such claims could have just asked IAF or the field evaluation report before making such claims.


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## Yeti

sancho said:


> When you are desperate to reduce costs and get a funder for new developments of the fighter, you can't give up.




Big deal MRCA is even if there is slim chance i can understand the British view they have nothing to lose

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## SpArK

tvsram1992 said:


> ^^^
> 65 years ago Brits were ruling us and now they were begging(no offense) us . Power of time .



Its aggressive marketing. We have collaboration with Brits and lots of BAE projects are expected. 

The fighter deal is more of a pride thing for them with regard to French.

I am surprised at an *MP Reddy* talking about fighters though.. 

Any full member of this defence forum can make him sweat with facts on fighter air-crafts. 

I wonder whether he can differentiate between G-force and a G-string.

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## kingdurgaking

I have full confident that Rafale will become part of the IAF


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## Agent_47

gslv said:


> rafale deal again in jeopardy?
> 
> Exclusive: India's biggest defence deal in jeopardy? - Video | The Times of India
> 
> what the hell is this. i am worried again about MMRCA!!!



Brits are trying Hard!


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## IndiaIsrael

ashwinm said:


> Brits are trying Hard!


 
Very Hard.


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## jha

Forget about this deal for atleast 6 months...


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## sancho

angeldemon_007 said:


> ^^^
> Don't worry...Rafale is better than Typhoon. The politician who is making such claims could have just asked IAF or the field evaluation report before making such claims.



The problem is, he wouldn't understand it, because he obviously has no idea of what he is talking and mainly just gossiping. Antony might have a clear record, but he should have been wiser and simple reject this, unless any useful proves were provided from Mr. Reddy. Now we are playing with the security of IAF pilots who are flying Mug 21s and with the security of the nation itself, because any futher delay makes us weaker.
It's just an embarrassment for India, that the world has to see things like this in public, just because a politician wants some media attention.


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## gslv

gslv said:


> rafale deal again in jeopardy?
> 
> Exclusive: India's biggest defence deal in jeopardy? - Video | The Times of India
> 
> what the hell is this. i am worried again about MMRCA!!!


i saw this video in timesof india it says about some technical problem in ToT.guys watch it.


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## sancho

> *Final Countdown*
> 
> Chief of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal NAK Browne on MMRCA
> 
> 
> The last mile determines whether eventually you will look back with satisfaction for a job well done or regret the opportunities missed. Hence, even as the tempo has to be maintained, the strides need to acquire flexibility and imagination to tide over the last few hurdles. The chief of air staff, Air Chief Marshal Norman Anil Kumar Brownes current state of mind would be a bit akin to that of a long distance runner: a combination of pleasure and determination; anticipation and anxiety...
> 
> 
> ...*The IAF is the main driver in this project and everything is moving on track*, he says matter-of-factly in an exclusive interview to FORCE. While I cannot discuss details of the ongoing Contract Negotiations Committee (CNC), I will only discuss the process of acquisition which has been adopted as per Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP) 2006. *The CNC is likely to wrap up all discussions in the next eight to 10 months and we will sign the contract in the financial year 2012-2013*. We have made budgetary provisions for the MMRCA in this financial year. If things move to plan, then ACM Browne would rather have the contract signed on 15 December 2012. Surely, he would like to present the MMRCA to the IAF as a return gift on his birthday...



FORCE-A Complete News Magazine on National Security-Defence Magazine,Indian Defence,AERO India 2011 Bangalore Bengaluru,magazine on Indian navy,Indian Army,Indian Air Force,Indian Paramilitary forces,Naxalism,Jammu & Kashmir,terrorism,national securi


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## SpArK

*No Progress On Rafale Until Inquiry Complete*







Indian Defence Minister A.K. Antony confirmed today that an inquiry was still on into the selection of the Rafale as L1 in the MMRCA competition (following a recent complaint by an MP), and that forward movement -- at least six more stages of scrutiny and process until contract signature -- would be held off until the inquiry is complete. Meanwhile, HAL seems pretty set on license building the Rafale  That's their production vision up there I scoped at their pavillion at DefExpo 2012. More photos and stuff later tonight.

Livefist: No Progress On Rafale Until Inquiry Complete


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## Yeti

NEW DELHI  The Indian government Thursday announced what appears to be a likely delay in the closing of an estimated $12 billion deal to buy 126 fighter jets from France's Dassault Aviation SA. 


The price negotiations alone could take about *eight more months*, and there would be *"several other stages of scrutiny*" before the deal to buy Dassault's Rafale is finalized, Defense Minister A.K. Antony said Thursday. 


His statement comes two months after the Indian government on Jan. 31 declared Dassault as the lowest bidder for one of the world's largest-ever military aircraft contracts. 

Just a day later, on Feb. 1, the French government said it hoped to seal the deal within six to nine months. 

But Mr. Antony Thursday said that the government is going slow on deals to modernize India's defense forces, as it wants to eliminate any chances of kickbacks or bribes. 

"We have zero tolerance on corruption," he told reporters at a defense exhibition being held in New Delhi. 

The March 29-April 1 exhibition has drawn participants from several countries--including France, the U.S., Russia and Singapore--to India, the world's largest importer of defense products. 

Separately, junior defense minister M.M. Pallam Raju said critical issues such as where the jet will be assembled in India and transfer of technology from Dassault are still being discussed. 

The signs of a delay come amid allegations in India that defense deals may involve bribing of bureaucrats and senior military officers, while middlemen take commissions from weapons makers. 

Even India's serving army chief, General V.K. Singh, alleged a few days ago that he was offered a bribe of 140 million rupees ($2.75 million) to back a deal to buy trucks. 

Another set of allegations involve Italian defense and aerospace company Finmeccanica's unit AgustaWestland, which is accused of inflating the price of 12 AW101 choppers it sold to the Indian army for 560 million. The price tag includes training and logistical support. 

AgustaWestland has denied the allegations. 

India "won't hesitate to cancel any deal at any stage" if any wrongdoing is found, Mr. Antony said in response to a question on the AgustaWestland deal. 

The government has dismissed charges of corruption in defense purchases, saying that strict rules are applied in evaluating functionality and prices before any deal is awarded. 

Earlier this month, India proposed spending about 1.93 trillion rupees ($38.2 billion) on defense in the fiscal year starting on April 1--an increase of 13% from the current year--and earmarked 795.79 billion rupees to buy new weapons. 

Inducting the 126 jets will go a long way toward modernizing India's ageing fleet of MiG-21 jets, some of which were bought in the 1960s. 

The country already uses Dassault's Mirage-2000 aircraft as well as other fighter jets, such as Russia's Sukhoi Su-30MKI and the Anglo-French Jaguar. 

The country's first locally developed--and much delayed--light combat aircraft, the Tejas, is expected to be inducted into the Air Force in 2015. 

The 126 fighter jet order stipulates that the first 18 planes will be sent to India in a ready-to-fly condition while the remainder will be produced in collaboration with a vendor in India. 

Dassault will also have to invest or bring business worth 50% of the deal value to India. 

Write to Santanu Choudhury at santanu.choudhury@dowjones.com and Nikhil Gulati at

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## The Great One

No
Not again.


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## Yeti

The Great One said:


> No
> Not again.




Not suprising these type of large contracts have many nitty gritty areas to iron out before a contract can be sealed.


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## Storm Force

We have waited since 2007 so another 8 months no biggy


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## Carlos 'Cypher' Renato

sancho said:


> AFP: Brazil's Rousseff to weigh French jet buy in India


Our airforce don't have resources to maintain the Rafale, if the president buys it, the Brazilian Airforce will be pretty grounded. The airforce already said that it wants the Gripen or the S.hornet, i can't understand why the government still prefers this jet.
My neighbors from Argentina already know how "reliable" the french can be. I don't want this here, i don't know the advantages of the Rafales in India's MMRCA, but i can't see a reason to see the Rafale there as well.
Pardon me if i said anything wrong....


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## janon

Yeti said:


> Not suprising these type of large contracts have many nitty gritty areas to iron out before a contract can be sealed.



Aren't 5 years enough to iron out nitty gritties of this deal, with a huge ministry and air force working together? In that time one person can do a phd in a complex subject.


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## janon

Carlos 'Cypher' Renato said:


> Our airforce don't have resources to maintain the Rafale, if the president buys it, the Brazilian Airforce will be pretty grounded. The airforce already said that it wants the Gripen or the S.hornet, i can't understand why the government still prefers this jet.
> My neighbors from Argentina already know how "reliable" the french can be. I don't want this here, i don't know the advantages of the Rafales in India's MMRCA, but i can't see a reason to see the Rafale there as well.
> Pardon me if i said anything wrong....



With an economy bigger than India's, I'm pretty sure you can afford a few rafales. Whether your country needs it or not, I do not know.

But the reason for it being purchased by India is simple - we have some 250 plus aircrafts desperately needing replacement, and our squadron strength is low as it is. We need to purchase around 200 high quality, modern multi role fighters quickly, and these were found to suit the IAF's requirements best, after a thorough evaluation. We also need the LCA later to bring back our strength to required levels.

What makes you think India doesn't need these, any particular reason? As far as I can tell, we needed these as of yesterday.


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## Carlos 'Cypher' Renato

janon said:


> With an economy bigger than India's, I'm pretty sure you can afford a few rafales. Whether your country needs it or not, I do not know.


Actually money should not be a problem, but by some reason (much problably corruption and a hatred against the military) the government refuses to give much money to the military.


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## janon

Carlos 'Cypher' Renato said:


> Actually money should not be a problem, but by some reason (much problably corruption and a hatred against the military) the government refuses to give much money to the military.



Well, that has nothing to do with the merits or demerits of rafale as a platform.


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## Carlos 'Cypher' Renato

Yep, i think it is a great aircraft, but not for my country. :]


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## sancho

Carlos 'Cypher' Renato said:


> Our airforce don't have resources to maintain the Rafale, if the president buys it, the Brazilian Airforce will be pretty grounded. The airforce already said that it wants the Gripen or the S.hornet, i can't understand why the government still prefers this jet.
> My neighbors from Argentina already know how "reliable" the french can be. I don't want this here, i don't know the advantages of the Rafales in India's MMRCA, but i can't see a reason to see the Rafale there as well.
> Pardon me if i said anything wrong....



Hi good to see some Brazilians here as well!

The reasons why Brazilian government wants Rafale is the same why I prefer Rafale for India:

- a politically independent choice
- the most ToT and offset advantages
- the most capable fighter in the competition
- a possible carrier fighter for the navy

France is a strategic partner for Brazil, just like Russia is to India. You get any weapon and tech from them, that the US for example wouldn't supply that easily. That's why you got a carrier before, now subs and assistance to build a nuclear sub fleet, a good source for fighters, helicopters and tanker aircrafts as well.
For India, France is a highly regarded partner as well, but this and the coming years will deepen the ties way more. Rafale is only one part, when you look at the list how much French arms and techs India might get and why, it's getting obvious how the relation will change.
No matter in which field, the French have high tech to offer us and they offer it without restrictions! That obviously has it's price, but for independent countries like Brazil or India, it's worth it and with the industrial advantage both countries can improve their indigenous aero fields too.
Gripen and F18SH might be cheaper, but offers your industry by far not the advantages that Rafale would bring and to be honest, the offer to set up a licence productionline in Brazil for just 36 fighter (possibly 24 for the navy) is very good, not even the UAE with 60 fighters will have that.


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## janon

sancho said:


> Gripen and F18SH might be cheaper, but offers your industry by far not the advantages that Rafale would bring and to be honest, the offer to set up a licence productionline in Brazil for just 36 fighter (possibly 24 for the navy) is very good, not even the UAE with 60 fighters will have that.



How cost effective is it though, to set up a production line for just 36 aircrafts? That might make the unit price of each plane much higher than buying off the shelf from france.

I wish they would place an order for these to be manufactured in India, that would bring down the unit cost for both brazil and india significantly.


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## sancho

janon said:


> How cost effective is it though, to set up a production line for just 36 aircrafts? That might make the unit price of each plane much higher than buying off the shelf from france.
> 
> I wish they would place an order for these to be manufactured in India, that would bring down the unit cost for both brazil and india significantly.



You have to think bigger here! For France, it's not just a deal for 36 to 60 fighters, but a strategic chance to get even deeper relations to Brazil and keep the US out of the market. Brazil is one of the growing economies and binding them to France is a big step, that's why the French government and most parts of the French industry is backing this deal. Recently they opened a joint branch for Thales, Safran and French EADS although the later is not involved in the fighter deal!
Also looking from the forces point of view, they actually are in a similar situation like IAF with up to 100 fighters to be phased out in the next years + the carrier fighters. Not to mention that the navy is interested in building 2 new carriers, again with French assistance, so even more carrier fighters are needed. All in all, the Indian deal is bigger, but the Brazilian competition could end up way bigger, especially for France and Rafale!

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## Yeti

janon said:


> Aren't 5 years enough to iron out nitty gritties of this deal, with a huge ministry and air force working together? In that time one person can do a phd in a complex subject.




Final Price negotiation, agreeing tech transfer is a long process and so far we stated with L1 that the Rafale is cheaper now it is the crunch part of finalising a 'working contract' to be signed by both parties. The French will be hard nosed also with both parties negotiating until the final handshake.


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## Yeti

Carlos 'Cypher' Renato said:


> Actually money should not be a problem, but by some reason (much problably corruption and a hatred against the military) the government refuses to give much money to the military.




With your land mass a 2 engine fighter would be more suited so i feel either the rafale or the F18 would be ideal fit.


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## sancho

> *Thales delivers first production RBE2 AESA radar to Dassault Aviation*
> 
> Neuilly-sur-Seine &#8211; In February, Thales delivered the first series-produced RBE2 radar with active electronically scanned array (AESA) to the Dassault Aviation facility in Mérignac, France. The radar will now be installed on Rafale C137, the first Rafale with this new capability, which is scheduled for delivery to the French defence procurement agency (DGA) this summer. A comprehensive three-month flight test programme conducted with the first production RBE2 AESA radar at the Istres air base demonstrated the qualities of the radar and confirmed the expected levels of performance prior to delivery to Dassault Aviation.
> 
> The RBE2 AESA radar was delivered in line with the contract schedule, demonstrating the new radar&#8217;s technological maturity and further consolidating Thales&#8217;s European leadership in radars for combat aircraft...



30032012 - Thales delivers first production RBE2 AESA radar to Dassault Aviation - Thales Group

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## Carlos 'Cypher' Renato

Yeti said:


> With your land mass a 2 engine fighter would be more suited so i feel either the rafale or the F18 would be ideal fit.


Yeah, but the really best offer was the Su-35, but the armed forces still have some worries with russian armament, so the government turned the offer down. :\


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## sancho

> *MBDA advertise Brimstone for Rafale:*














Looks like it's just a matter of time till it will be integreated as well.


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## SpArK

*Eurofighter could still win MMRCA deal, says Cassidian boss*

*Cassidian has not given up hope of a Eurofighter win in India's medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) contest, despite the consortium holding "L2" vendor status behind the Dassault Rafale, says company chief executive Stefan Zoller.
*

"India is a campaign that is still running," Zoller says, pointing to an investigation into the nation's selection process being conducted by the government in New Delhi.

Speaking during a financial briefing at the company's Unterschleissheim headquarters near *Munich on 2 April,* Zoller said: "We will see to what conclusion the Indian government will come."

A consequence of India having awarded L1 status to Dassault has been what Zoller describes as "more advanced discussions with our Eurofighter customers on how much faster we can integrate the additional capacity of the aircraft". This includes planned enhancements such as an active electronically scanned array radar, additional weapons and new reconnaissance and targeting systems.

"There is now far more willingness from the customers to converge and go ahead on those," he said.

The Eurofighter consortium had an exhibit at the 29 March-1 April Defexpo India show in New Delhi in support of its continued pursuit of the 126-aircraft MMRCA deal.

Zoller also disclosed the value of Cassidian's stake in a new five-year support contract signed by the four Eurofighter partner nations on 30 March.

Its &#8364;840 million ($1.1 billion) deal will cover the provision of in-service support to the air forces of Germany and Spain.

Alenia Aermacchi and BAE Systems last week valued their parts of the deal as worth a combined $1.38 billion.


Eurofighter could still win MMRCA deal, says Cassidian boss


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## Abingdonboy

Yeah okay buddy, believe what you like, I bet he will be saying the same come the induction of 1st SQD of Rafale. The panting is on the wall. 


But I suspect this is the front he has to put on for the sake of the company, I wouldn't expect anything else.

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## Dazzler

Inaction Hovers Over Indian MMRCA Program

Apr 12, 2012 



By Asia-Pacific Staff
New Delhi 

Such is India&#8217;s idiosyncratic procurement system that, in the run-up to the award of the $12 billion Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft program, the joke was that the only thing worse than losing would be winning. For Dassault, that reality is not that far off. 

After its Rafale offer beat out the Eurofighter Typhoon in January as the low-cost bidder for the MMRCA program, there has been much talk about the fate of the project, but very little action. Talks have been stuck since late February, with departmental inquiries into allegations that the final selection process was manipulated to favor Rafale. 

Following weeks of uncertainty, Defense Minister A.K. Antony revealed last week that the program would move forward only after all inquiries were made and the ministry was satisfied that the selection process had not been corrupted. But that may not happen anytime soon. 

&#8220;There are at least seven to eight more levels of scrutiny and process before the MMRCA contract can be signed,&#8221; Antony says. &#8220;The contract has to be vetted at multiple levels, including the finance ministry and the cabinet committee on security. Right now an inquiry is on. Only after we receive the inquiry report, study it and are satisfied that all processes have been followed unfailingly will the procurement effort move to the next level.&#8221;

Less than a month after the Rafale got the nod, the defense minister received a letter from M. V. Mysura Reddy, a member of the Indian parliament&#8217;s standing committee on defense, asking for an inquiry into the selection process. 

Allegations of favoritism are not new in Indian defense contracting, and the MP&#8217;s letter could be the first of many twists in a journey that hardly suffers from a lack of drama and intrigue. Initially, officials indicated that the favoritism issue might only receive a cursory glance to satisfy the legislator&#8217;s concerns, but the process may now be more extensive.

Formally, negotiations between the Indian contract committee and Dassault have begun, but in reality the two parties have not met even once as a result of the complaint, according to officials close to the proceedings. The ministry has refused to divulge the nature of its inquiries, although in March it acknowledged that internal questions raised about the Rafale&#8217;s life-cycle cost had been looked at but dismissed. 

A Dassault official says: &#8220;We are waiting to see if we can help with any information. We&#8217;ve worked with the Indian air force and [defense ministry] for years, and are confident that we have provided all the information necessary and are fully compliant with the selection process. The Rafale was selected because it was the better aircraft backed by a better industrial package.&#8221;

The delays are beginning to worry the eventual customer, however. Indian air force sources say IAF leader Air Chief Marshal Norman Browne, who met the defense minister last week as part of a defense acquisition council (DAC) meeting, raised both the MMRCA program and delays in a final contract for a basic trainer as issues of concern.

The Indian government doused speculation that India and Brazil would jointly negotiate with Dassault for a common best price on the Rafale. &#8220;That is impossible and can never happen,&#8221; Antony declares. Brazil is due to make a type selection among the Rafale, Boeing F/A-18E/F and Saab Gripen. A visit by Defense Minister Celso Amorim to India shortly after the Rafale selection gave rise to speculation that a partnership was in the offing, but that has been dismissed as merely coincidental. Furthermore, Brazilian President Dilma Rousseff is due in Washington this week, and the F-X2 fighter competition also is expected to be on the agenda.

The company most eager to see the derailment of MMRCA talks is runner-up Eurofighter. Officials for EADS, the Typhoon partner in charge of the Indian campaign, have signaled that they view the contest as still in play. &#8220;As L2 [second-lowest bidder], we take our responsibility seriously,&#8221; a company official said during the recent Defexpo defense exhibition in New Delhi. &#8220;There is a larger concern that the Indian air force shouldn&#8217;t suffer on any count as a result of delays. They need their aircraft as soon as possible.&#8221;

The loss in India also has given rise to renewed interest in Europe for core Eurofighter governments to press forward with a radar upgrade to add an active, electronically scanned array (AESA) to the fighter. Eurofighter industrial partners have been self-funding the development in the absence of government backing. That has created uncertainty over the fielding schedule, although industry officials insist they could meet a 2015 objective. In contrast, the first Rafale with the Thales RBE2 production AESA is to fly this year; the first radar was recently delivered to Dassault for installation on C137, the aircraft to be used for the test campaign at the Istres flight test center in southern France. France would become the first European air force to field an AESA when the system becomes operational. 

The fluid status has also led to continued political lobbying in India over the program. British Chancellor George Osborne, who visited India last week, is understood to have pushed Eurofighter&#8217;s case with the government. A French delegation also called on the country&#8217;s junior defense minister to see if it could gain more information about the inquiry.

Not all program activities are on ice, though. Hindustan Aeronautics, which will license-build 108 MMRCAs, has requested bids for a new design and manufacturing facility in Bengaluru for the new production line. 


With Robert Wall in London.


Inaction Hovers Over Indian MMRCA Program | AVIATION WEEK

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## Sergi

it will be final in this fiscal year.  article sounds more Brithish than I expect  *may be with the additional 60 fighter to fill in gaps. 40 a/c off the shelf in 3 years*


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## -1o1-

Rafale is all in one perfect one


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## sancho

Crossposting from the MP forum:



> Air Cosmos 2307, April 13, page 14:
> 
> *Integration of Meteor has started*:
> 
> The flight test campaign began last fall. Flights are conducted by Rafale C101, B301 and M02. Wind tunnel testing was completed in February at Onera facilities. Meanwhile, the software development on Rafale has also started. With a field of fire doubled to Mica, the software for the Meteor will include new "aid to fire" for long-range engagements. The integration should be continued until 2016. Commissioning is still scheduled for 2018 but could be advanced in 2016 at the request of an export customer.



Credits to Olybrius


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## Killswitch

The Rafale won.

The tender took 5 years to pick a winner.


Rafales will probably make up 10 squadrons by 2020.


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## SQ8

Quick question.. are all the rafale's purchased going to be dual seaters or a combination of both?


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## Sergi

Oscar said:


> Quick question.. are all the rafale's purchased going to be dual seaters or a combination of both?



Both. But larger number is single seater jets


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## Archie

Oscar said:


> Quick question.. are all the rafale's purchased going to be dual seaters or a combination of both?



As per RFP 86 will be single seat and 40 will be twin seater 
with option to purchase upto 44 single seat and 20 double seaters

12 twin seat and 6 single seat will be purchased in flyaway conditions

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## sancho

Oscar said:


> Quick question.. are all the rafale's purchased going to be dual seaters or a combination of both?



IAF only use completelly twin seat configs for MKI and FGFA, all other fighters comes in mixed squads, normally of 16 x single and 2 x twin seats. For Rafale numbers of twin seats seems to be increased though, as Archie pointed out and most likely because of the importance of strike capability.

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## Archie

sancho said:


> IAF only use completelly twin seat configs for MKI and FGFA, all other fighters comes in mixed squads, normally of 16 x single and 2 x twin seats. For Rafale numbers of twin seats seems to be increased though, as Archie pointed out and most likely because of the importance of strike capability.



Rafale will form the backbone of Indian Ground attack fleet replacing some 230+ Mig27 & Jaguars IS/IM in ground attack

Also some Twin seat Rafales will be modified for Nuclear Delivery which explains why 40 were ordered instead of 20


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## sancho

Archie said:


> Rafale will form the backbone of Indian Ground attack fleet replacing some 230+ Mig27 & Jaguars IS/IM in ground attack
> 
> Also some Twin seat Rafales will be modified for Nuclear Delivery which explains why 40 were ordered instead of 20



No, because IAF has left the role specific thinking with the addition of MKI. Today they aim only on multi role fighters, that are able to do both roles, if possible as balanced as MKI or Rafale. The fact that even LCA prototypes has integrated and tested strike weapons and LDPs makes this clear as well.
The number 40 has no relation to the rumored fighters for the SFC if you mean that, because any IAF fighter squad will at least have some twin seaters for training reasons. As mentioned normally, 2 per squad now it will be more, but still diveded into all IAF squads not combined for SFC.


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## SpArK

*The modernization of the Rafale M Standard F1 to F3
*









Among them are ten new missions that will carry modernized naval fighters, nuclear deterrence.
-
The Ministry of Defence of France issued a statement on the modernization of 10/1 Rafale were delivered to the French Navy in the 2000s. These aircraft are being modernized standard F1 to F3, and the note provides information for the operation of the technical "Retrofit F1-F3" in DGA (Direction Générale de l'armement - general direction of weaponry), Christophe Carpentier.

The mission of Carpentier's technical manager to coordinate the different actors in the process of modernization. By industry, are Dassault, MBDA, Thales, Sagem. By the French Government, are SIAE (Service de l'Aéronautique industriel - serving the aviation industry), the Marine Nationale (French Navy) and SIMMAD (Structure of intégrée maintien en condition des opérationnelle Matériels Aéronautiques de la défense - structure integrated maintenance in operational condition of aeronautical materials of defense).








These are 10/1 produced the Rafale F1 standard, equipped with only the employment capacity and air-air refueling. The "retrofit" of such aircraft is in a profound modification to elevate them to the same capacity as the F3 standard, currently in production. The *gain will be operating the addition of new missions capable of accomplishment by these ten aircraft and ground attack and reconnaissance, plus the ability to ensure the mission of nuclear deterrence.*

According to Carpentier, one of the great challenges of the project is to organize the schedule for modernization of entry into each cell, so that it perfectly between the rate of production of the Rafale, without disrupting the industrial production of hunting.

SOURCE / PHOTOS: Ministry of Defence of France



Leia mais (Read More): A modernização dos caças Rafale M do padrão F1 para F3 | Poder Aéreo - Informação e Discussão sobre Aviação Militar e Civil

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## RPK

In February, THALES delivered the first production RBE2 Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar to DASSAULT AVIATION.

Dassault Aviation : Quarterly information as of March 31, 2012 | SYS-CON MEDIA


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## Ajaxpaul

Indian Air Force chief Air Chief Marshal N.A.K. Browne, currently on a four-day official visit to France, will be spending time with the Rafale squadron at St Dizier "to get a first hand impression of the MMRCA selected by the IAF, as also to see Rafales production facilities at Mérignac", the air force said in a statement today.

The first high level visit from India after a new government came to power in France, Air Chief Marshal Browne is scheduled to meet France's new defence minister Jean-Yves Le Drian, Chief of Defence Staff Admiral Édouard Guillaud, Director-General of the French Defence Technology and Procurement Agency (DGA) Laurent Collet-Billon and Chief of Staff of the French Air Force General Jean-Paul Paloméros. He will also visit the air bases at Istres and Cognac. While in France, he will also meet members of the Mirage 2000 upgrade project management team.

Livefist: IAF Chief Scopes Out Rafale Facilities In France

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## rashtriya.rifles

seems our Air Chief Marshal is meeting with almost everyone who has anything remote to do with aviation industry of france


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## Filmmaker

Even as India is in final negotiations to seal its largest-ever defence project, the almost $20 billion MMRCA project to acquire 126 Rafale fighters, IAF chief Air Chief Marshal NAK Browne left for a four-day visit to France on Monday.

The French Rafale jet outclassed five other American, Russian and Swedish fighters, in technical and commercial evaluation, to enter the final lap of India's gigantic medium multi-role combat aircraft programme.

Moreover, the mid-life upgrade of IAF's 51 Mirage-2000 fighters is also currently underway with the help of French companies in a project that will eventually cost over Rs 15,000 crore.

During his visit, ACM Browne will hold talks with Jean-Yves Le Drian, the new French defence minister, Admiral Edouard Guillaud, French chief of defence staff, Ingenieur General de l'Armement (IGA) Laurent Collet-Billon, director-general of the French Defence Technology and Procurement Agency (DGA) and General Jean-Paul Palomeros, chief of staff of the French Air Force.

The visit, which aims to expand the already robust bilateral military to military ties between the two countries, would also see the IAF chief visit Cognac, Istres and St.Dizier airbases of the French Air Force (FAF).

At St.Dizier, he would be visiting the Rafale Squadron to get a first hand impression of the jet selected by the IAF, as also to see Rafale's Production facilities at Merignac. He would also be interacting with the IAF's project management team members for the Mirage- 2000 Upgrade project. 

The visit is significant, as it is the first high level official visit from India to France after the new government has taken office in Paris. General Jean-Paul Palomeros, in turn, had visited India during September last year, when he had also visited some of the IAF's air bases including Jaisalmer and Gwalior.



Air Chief Marshal Browne leave for France amidst talks for India's largest-ever defence deal - The Times of India

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## Yeti

Important step to cement ties with the new leadership in France and seal the final stage of the deal.


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## SQ8

Not that it really belongs here.. 
But I remembered this really smart scheme on IAF Su-7's.. and thought something similar would look grand on the Rafale.

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## Abingdonboy

Oscar said:


> Not that it really belongs here..
> But I remembered this really smart scheme on IAF Su-7's.. and thought something similar would look grand on the Rafale.



Not bad Oscar but I think the IAF is more than likely going to go for the standard low-vis grey it has on all it's other combat a/c. This is the trend these days- in the modern age where you have LGBs and standoff weapons the need for such camo for combat a/c is much less and practically non-existent.


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## SQ8

Abingdonboy said:


> Not bad Oscar but I think the IAF is more than likely going to go for the standard low-vis grey it has on all it's other combat a/c. This is the trend these days- in the modern age where you have LGBs and standoff weapons the need for such camo for combat a/c is much less and practically non-existent.



Agreed.. i was thinking more along the lines of a commemorative flight.
BTW.. what types do these IAF squadrons fly today?(101 and 222 sq)


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## nomi007

which 1 will be the indian model
rafale 

Rafale A
Technology demonstrator, first flying in 1986.
Rafale D
Dassault used this designation (D for "discret") in the early 1990s to emphasise the new semi-stealthy design features.
Rafale B
Two-seater version for the Armée de l'Air.
Rafale C
Single-seat version for the Armée de l'Air.

Rafale M
Carrier-borne version for the Aéronavale, which entered service in 2002. The Rafale M weighs about 500 kg (1,100 lb) more than the Rafale C. For carrier operations, the M model has a strengthened airframe, longer nose gear leg to provide a more nose-up attitude, larger tailhook between the engines, and a built-in boarding ladder.

Rafale N
Originally called the Rafale BM, was a planned two-seater version for the Aéronavale. Budget constraints and training costs have been cited as grounds for its cancellation.

Rafale R
Proposed reconnaissance-orientated variant, unbuilt


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## sancho

rashtriya.rifles said:


> seems our Air Chief Marshal is meeting with almost everyone who has anything remote to do with aviation industry of france



At least anybody related to the Rafale and especially that he wants a first hand view of the fighter is interesting, seems he have no doubt on the selection at anymore. Hope we get some pics of his flights and some reports on his views on it.



Oscar said:


> Not that it really belongs here..
> But I remembered this really smart scheme on IAF Su-7's.. and thought something similar would look grand on the Rafale.



I would prefer one of these:













nomi007 said:


> which 1 will be the indian model
> rafale



B and C of course.

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## SQ8

sancho said:


> I would prefer one of these:


Gimme a day.

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## Abingdonboy

nomi007 said:


> which 1 will be the indian model
> rafale
> 
> Rafale A
> Technology demonstrator, first flying in 1986.
> Rafale D
> Dassault used this designation (D for "discret") in the early 1990s to emphasise the new semi-stealthy design features.
> Rafale B
> Two-seater version for the Armée de l'Air.
> Rafale C
> Single-seat version for the Armée de l'Air.
> 
> Rafale M
> Carrier-borne version for the Aéronavale, which entered service in 2002. The Rafale M weighs about 500 kg (1,100 lb) more than the Rafale C. For carrier operations, the M model has a strengthened airframe, longer nose gear leg to provide a more nose-up attitude, larger tailhook between the engines, and a built-in boarding ladder.
> 
> Rafale N
> Originally called the Rafale BM, was a planned two-seater version for the Aéronavale. Budget constraints and training costs have been cited as grounds for its cancellation.
> 
> Rafale R
> Proposed reconnaissance-orientated variant, unbuilt



C and B of course. IN may later get the M but that is a separate project.



Oscar said:


> Agreed.. i was thinking more along the lines of a commemorative flight.
> BTW.. what types do these IAF squadrons fly today?(101 and 222 sq)



AFAIK the 101 SQD operates the MiG-21 "Bison" and the 222 the MiG-27. Both retaining their ground attack roles. In future maybe they will get the Rafale.



Ajaxpaul said:


> The first high level visit from India after a new government came to power in France, Air Chief Marshal Browne is scheduled to meet France's new defence minister Jean-Yves Le Drian, Chief of Defence Staff Admiral Édouard Guillaud, Director-General of the French Defence Technology and Procurement Agency (DGA) Laurent Collet-Billon and Chief of Staff of the French Air Force General Jean-Paul Paloméros. He will also visit the air bases at Istres and Cognac. While in France, he will also meet members of the Mirage 2000 upgrade project management team.
> 
> Livefist: IAF Chief Scopes Out Rafale Facilities In France



Striking whilst the Iron's hot- nice. Of course this visit was planned well in advance and had nothing to do with elections (unless IAF are more crafty then we gave them credit for) but it is good that the IAF delegation is visiting so soon after the new government came into power.

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## Abingdonboy

Anyone aware whether the IAF intends to use the LITENING (which is used by all other IAF fighters) or Damocles targeting pod for the Rafale?


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## Abingdonboy

> Brasilia - The bilateral meeting between Brazil and India, Hyderabad House, the Indian government informed the President that Rousseff if she opts for the purchase of Rafale fighters, similar to what India did, the Indians are interested in establishing a technology partner with Brazilians to set up a joint project of technology transfer. According to the offer, the Indian government's willingness to transfer the information they receive in relation to the Rafale, and the three countries - Brazil, India and France (the airplane manufacturer) could then work together in a partnership project technology.
> 
> The call was made at the time that India had several offers of cooperation with Brazil, in different sectors, for an Indian ministers, who attended the meeting expanded. The President Dilma, however, gave no answer to the Indians, or weave any more detailed comment on the subject. "Not fit her comment. The offer was made at the time that India had proposed a partnership in various areas and this would just be one of them," said a member of the Brazilian delegation that was present at the meeting. "They offered cooperation and Brazil will still look at it," confirmed another party of the president.
> 
> Brazil does not want to discuss the subject purchase of 36 fighters for the Brazilian Air Force before the month of May. Similar offer the Indian government had already done to the defense minister, Celso Amorim, during a visit he made to India in February.
> 
> The President Rousseff, leaving a meeting with businessmen in the afternoon of Friday, asked by reporters if he had discussed the purchase of Rafale to India, chose to remain silent.



Indianos propõem parceria caso Dilma opte por Rafale - Brasil - Notícia - VEJA.com

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## Big Boss

*IAF chief leaves for four-day visit to France*

NEW DELHI: Air Force chief Air Chief Marshal N A K Browne is on a four-day visit to France where he will visit the squadron of Rafale fighter jets, selected by India for its multi-billion 126-aircraft deal.

The IAF chief will also meet members of Indian team there for the Mirage 2000 aircraft upgrade programme, IAF officials said here.

"During the visit, he is scheduled to call on the new French Defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian, French Chief of Defence Staff Admiral Edouard Guillaud and his French counterpart General Jean-Paul Palomeros to discuss the ongoing defence cooperation between them," they said.

Officials said the visit aims at expanding the already robust bilateral military to military ties between the two countries and would see the IAF Chief visit, Cognac, Istres and St.Dizier airbases of the French Air Force (FAF).

"At St.Dizier, he would be visiting the Rafale Squadron to get a first hand impression of the MMRCA, selected by the IAF, as also to see Rafale's production facilities at Merignac," they said.

Besides overseeing the progress of the various projects being carried forward as joint ventures between the two countries, ACM Browne would also be interacting with the IAF's Project Management Team members for the Mirage- 2000 Upgrade Project.

India had taken a decision early this year to select Rafale as the lowest bidder for the multi-billion dollar deal and has been holding contract negotiations with French company Dassault Avitaion in this regard. 

Air Chief N A K Browne in France, to visit Rafale Squadron - The Economic Times
*
Air Chief N A K Browne in France, to visit Rafale Squadron*
*
NEW DELHI: Even as India conducts final negotiations to seal its largest-ever defence deal, the almost $20 billion MMRCA project to acquire 126 Rafale fighters, IAF chief Air Chief Marshal NAK Browne left for a four-day visit to France on Monday.*

The French Rafale jet outclassed five American, Russian and Swedish fighters in exhaustive technical and commercial evaluation to make it to the last lap of India's gigantic medium multi-role combat aircraft programme.

Moreover, the mid-life avionics and weapons upgrade of IAF's 51 Mirage-2000 fighters is also in progress with the help of French companies in a project that will eventually cost over Rs 15,000 crore.

During the visit, which comes when these critical projects are underway to boost his force's depleting combat edge, ACM Browne will hold talks with new French defence minister Jean-Yves Le Drian, chief of defence staff Admiral Edouard Guillaud, Defence Technology and Procurement Agency (DGA) director-general Laurent Collet-Billon and air chief General Jean-Paul Palomeros, among others.

The visit, which aims to expand the already robust military ties between the two countries, will see the IAF chief also visit Cognac, Istres and St Dizier airbases of the French Air Force.

He will visit the Rafale squadron at St Dizier to get a first-hand impression of the jet selected by the IAF in the MMRCA sweepstakes, *as also the fighter's production facilities at Merignac.* 

During this first high-level official visit from India to France after the new government has taken office in Paris, ACM Browne will also interact with IAF's project management team members for the Mirage-2000 upgrade project. 


IAF chief leaves for four-day visit to France - The Times of India
&#8206;


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## DrSomnath999

> *He will visit the Rafale squadron at St Dizier to get a first-hand impression of the jet selected by the IAF in the MMRCA sweepstakes, as also the fighter's production facilities at Merignac.*




LLLOLLLZ 
even IAF chief has become RAFFY's Fanboy & even he cant wait to see this baby in IAF
Ha..haa


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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> Anyone aware whether the IAF intends to use the LITENING (which is used by all other IAF fighters) or Damocles targeting pod for the Rafale?



Both are on offer, it might depend on what's more cost-effective for IAF, integrating the Litening pod and sharing it with other fighters, or simply ordering Damocles without integration costs. The Mirage upgrade will tell us something about this, if Damocles will be procured then for Rafale as well.


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## Shatterpoint

Welcome to France, what else can we sell you? We have some high tech gear you could use.


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## Impasse

Shatterpoint said:


> Welcome to France, what else can we sell you? We have some high tech gear you could use.



Thank you! In time, we will be interested in those.

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## sancho

Shatterpoint said:


> Welcome to France, what else can we sell you? We have some high tech gear you could use.



- Dassault Rafale x 126+
- Eurocopter Fennec x 197 (to 250 incl. IN and ICG requirements)
- EADS CASA C295 x 50+ (under consideration of IAF, IN, ICG, BSF)
- Airbus 330 MRTT x 6+ (won the first tender and obviously the front runner now as well)
- DCNS Mistral class LHD x 4
- Dassault Falcon MPA x 9 (in the same competition as C295MPA)

Just a fast list up of possible follow deals with French participation.

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## Shatterpoint

Could we interest you in anything else? How about some R&D joint investments?

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## sancho

Shatterpoint said:


> Could we interest you in anything else? How about some R&D joint investments?



That's dependent on France mainly, because French government mainly will have new co-developments with European countries. India can benefit (so far) only from industrial JV like the Thales / Samtel JV, or for Kaveri and Shakti engine with Snecma, or for LCAs AESA radar with Thales.


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## DrSomnath999

Shatterpoint said:


> Could we interest you in anything else? How about some R&D joint investments?


future laser based 

directional IR counter measures (DIRCM) like Flash in A 400M but a smaller variant.





http://www.thalesgroup.com/Portfolio/Aerospace/LandJoint_Products_Optronic_self-protection_LWR/

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## sancho

*Some improvements for ex MMRCA contenders:*



> *Selex nears AESA radar delivery for Gripen*
> 
> Selex Galileo is within weeks of delivering a new version of its Raven ES-05 active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar for integration with Saab's two-seat demonstrator for the next-generation Gripen E/F.
> Now in the final stages of testing at the Finmeccanica company's Edinburgh site in Scotland, the sensor will be displayed along with the Gripen at July's Farnborough air show....
> 
> ...Another element of the Swedish fighter's next evolution is also currently in the advanced stages of development, with the first Skyward-G infrared search and track sensor due to be delivered for testing at the end of this year or in early 2013. Selex also plans to offer pod-housed versions of the equipment for integration with additional aircraft types.
> 
> Meanwhile, work on the Euroradar Captor-E AESA for the Eurofighter Typhoon is also proceeding, with EADS company Cassidian acting as design authority for the new array.
> 
> "We are cracking on, with hardware coming together," Mason says. The first test radar should be delivered early in the second quarter of 2013, and flown by Eurofighter partner company BAE Systems on a Typhoon before the end of that year...
> 
> ...Mason says discussions with the four core Eurofighter partner nations are continuing, and believes that "those that have money will join the [AESA] programme in the near future". A production contract could come by mid-2013, with deliveries to commence from around 2015.
> The Captor-E will be available as an option for Tranche 3A aircraft to be built for Germany, Italy, Spain and the UK, and as a retrofit option for their Tranche 2 aircraft, along with those of Saudi Arabia. The enhancement is also being offered to other potential export customers for the Typhoon, including Malaysia and the United Arab Emirates.



Selex nears AESA radar delivery for Gripen


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## SQ8

As requested by sancho
( a done a bit hasty though)

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## AUSTERLITZ

Magnificent.


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## sancho

> *General Paloméros receives CEMAA Indian*
> 
> Military honors were rendered to him by a section of the basic weapons in Paris, while the national anthems of both countries were played by a panel of the Music of the air. Paloméros General then met with Air Chief Marshal Browne, before applying to the organization of the Air Force...
> 
> ...This movement is a continuation of a rich bilateral cooperation, reinforced by ties of friendship between the two air forces. As a reminder, General Paloméros had visited India twice in 2011: in February, at the International Airshow Aeroindia , then from 19 to 22 September 2011, as part of an official trip .



Google Übersetzer


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## Storm Force

That photoshot of RAFALE looks awesome..............

I love it thank you

BUT would look even better on low visability IAF grey along side a TEJAS


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## sancho

> *Indian Air Chief Flies Rafale In France*



http://livefist.blogspot.de/2012/05/photos-indian-air-chief-flies-rafale-in.html

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## EagleEyes

Stuck and opened for @sancho

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## Hulk

WebMaster said:


> Stuck and opened for @sancho


Many thanks for your kindness.


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## Abingdonboy

WebMaster said:


> Stuck and opened for @sancho



Thanks sir!


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## sancho

WebMaster said:


> Stuck and opened for @sancho



Much appreciated!

Crossposting from the MP forum:



> *Rafale: everything goes well*
> 
> [...]"Everything is going well," says a source close to the case even if there is little chance that this contract to be signed, despite the willingness of Indian the Air Force and authorities before the end of the fiscal year which ends in late March. The visit of François Hollande (February 14 and 15) ,revealed by Challenges, will not be the opportunity to sign this mégacontrat. Dassault Aviation expects rather a contract this summer or year-end, according to our information. Not later because the elections are scheduled in India in May 2014. Three months before the election date, no contract of this magnitude will be signed. In December, the Ministry of Defence of India had publicly and plainly stated that "the MMRCA contract has not been finalized so far because the negotiations are ongoing."
> 
> *The challenge for Dassault Aviation is to organize the vast transfer of technologies required by New Delhi in good conditions for Indians and in conditions of reasonable safety for the Rafale Team (Dassault Aviation, Thales and Safran). *This is far from simple. Finding Indian suppliers for such a contract is a big challenge ... and time consuming. So, Dassault Aviation discusses step by step financial guarantees in case of failure of local suppliers.



http://www.latribune.fr/entreprises-finance/industrie/aeronautique-defense/20130205trib000747034/rafale-dassault-vise-un-contrat-signe-en-inde-cet-ete.html

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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> Much appreciated!
> 
> Crossposting from the MP forum:
> 
> 
> 
> Rafale : Dassault vise un contrat signé en Inde cet été



So the delays are ToT/offset related.


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## Capt.Popeye

Abingdonboy said:


> So the delays are ToT/offset related.



Yes they are. This is simply the largest commercial negotiation undertaken by MoD with huge offset requirements, so the volume of items to be covered by iron-clad clauses, and then streamlined SOPs is beyond anything ever conceived of earlier in Defense Production in India. One of the most snagging issues (as published) is HAL's role. But what has not been talked about in the press is about progressive vendor development. Compared to all this, the Price Negotiations were simpler.
The MoD does'nt want the problems that crept into the contractual terms that were experienced during the Jaguar and Hawk deals.

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## trident2010

Good to be slow and make all the ToT clauses firm. If we are paying $10 billion +, make sure we get every penny worth out of it


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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> So the delays are ToT/offset related.



Yes, but even more important, it shows how much importance ToT/offsets had in the MMRCA in general and in the selection of Rafale. The price negotiations are done, but it will be interesting to see how fast they find the Indian partners and how fast they will be able to absorb it.

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## SpArK

HAL to discuss Rafale production with Dassault tomorrow.


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## IND151

Livefist: Hope To Sign M-MRCA Deal By Year End: IAF Chief


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## SpArK

Dassault says 31 Rafale evaluation sorties have been flown in Doha last July. 

All of them involved the AESA version of the RBE2 radar.


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## sancho

> *French president to negotiate $12bn Rafale jet deal in India next week*
> 
> France's Dassault Aviation hopes to conclude its $12-billion deal to sell Rafale jets to India this year, with negotiations set to be taken up by President Francois Hollande next week.
> 
> "The ideal would be to sign it in 2013," Dassault chief executive Eric Trappier told AFP in an interview about the world's biggest defence deal at India's air show in Bangalore...
> 
> 
> ...*He also confirmed Indian negotiators had detailed their needs for an additional 63 planes beyond the initial order of 126*, as reported after a visit by foreign minister Salman Khurshid to Paris in January.
> 
> "*It's to let us know that they'll need the assembly lines for a long time*," he said...



French president to negotiate $12bn Rafale jet deal in India next week - The Times of India


An important point, because for once it makes clear that MoD/IAF still wants just 18 x Rafales build in France (silly imo), but also that we might continue to build it even in 2025, next to FGFA and LCA, which again shows that there is no requirement for another fighter type (AMCA) in IAF.

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## Abingdonboy



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## jha

^^^ Ek hi engine chal raha hai..? Doosra kharab hai Kya..?

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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> French president to negotiate $12bn Rafale jet deal in India next week - The Times of India
> 
> 
> An important point, because for once it makes clear that MoD/IAF still wants just 18 x Rafales build in France (silly imo), but also that we might continue to build it even in 2025, next to FGFA and LCA, which again shows that there is no requirement for another fighter type (AMCA) in IAF.



As of defence field is considered ... there is no concept called requirement.. you take a living bird.. train them.. that can do some job that is useful for military a doctrine will be created around it... AMCA may not look like a requirement now ... but (if ) developed it will find a place.. may be in less quantity like tejas...


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## jha

For Rafale Fans...


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## sancho

kingdurgaking said:


> As of defence field is considered ... there is no concept called requirement.. you take a living bird.. train them.. that can do some job that is useful for military a doctrine will be created around it... AMCA may not look like a requirement now ... *but (if ) developed it will find a place.. may be in less quantity like tejas*...



That's the problem, IAF don't need it, but they are not stupid to say no if GoI would be ready to fund such a development, that currently is only based on ADA/DRDOs personal interests. If it will be a success, they (IAF) can show off with it as well, if not ADA and DRDO is to blame and IN must look the get the best out of the rest.
However, for our country that is not the best way and why I want it to be a stealthy carrier fighter in first place, because that what we really need!


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## MilSpec

kingdurgaking said:


> As of defence field is considered ... there is no concept called requirement.. you take a living bird.. train them.. that can do some job that is useful for military a doctrine will be created around it... AMCA may not look like a requirement now ... but (if ) developed it will find a place.. may be in less quantity like tejas...



On contrary the AMCA seems to have a very larger requirement, replacing, jaguars, mirages and mig29's. I am just hoping that AMCA is designed as a naval stealth fighter adopted to airforce instead of the other way around.


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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> That's the problem, IAF don't need it, but they are not stupid to say no if GoI would be ready to fund such a development, that currently is only based on ADA/DRDOs personal interests. If it will be a success, they (IAF) can show off with it as well, if not ADA and DRDO is to blame and IN must look the get the best out of the rest.
> However, for our country that is not the best way and why I want it to be a stealthy carrier fighter in first place, because that what we really need!



The thing which i am trying to explain here is ... we dont know what requirement will be there after 10-15 yrs... if we think Rafale can solve all the problem of the threat perception that is arising in next 10 -15 yrs then we are wrong... Rafale is a immediate requirement to fill the gaps... if you see MMRCA... if IAF needs the *best* then it is only F-35 ... but they are not ready to wait.. they dont find a threat perception from enemy that will attack.. they have a threat perception of depleting capable fighter .... if AMCA is developed the way IAF want and suits them well then Rafale will not be upgraded or money will not be spent on future upgrade.. It will be moved in secondary locations like south , andaman etc.. and AMCA will be doing the role of Rafale.. while PAK-FA will be doing the role of MKI.. 10-15 yrs there is going to be a dramatic change in all the dimensions .... if AMCA is not capable then definitely F-35 will enter the equation or more PAK-FA...

Thats why i say in defence there is no concept called requirement...


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## Agnostic_Indian

jha said:


> ^^^ Ek hi engine chal raha hai..? Doosra kharab hai Kya..?



No..it's part of Austerity measures.:-D


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## kingdurgaking

sandy_3126 said:


> On contrary the AMCA seems to have a very larger requirement, replacing, jaguars, mirages and mig29's. I am just hoping that AMCA is designed as a naval stealth fighter adopted to airforce instead of the other way around.



It is having lot of requirement ... but seeing HAL - ADA combination i am expecting one more LCA saga.. we havent mastered the micro technology ... then think of nano technologies that will be more common at that time frame... none of our curriculum is having any details about it.. there is only few research going on few universities... not sure how much they can support our needs... see the western curriculum.. research are going on full wing in many university on this space.. you should not be surprised on the out come.


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## MilSpec

kingdurgaking said:


> It is having lot of requirement ... but seeing HAL - ADA combination i am expecting one more LCA saga.. we havent mastered the *micro technology *... then think of nano technologies that will be more common at that time frame... none of our curriculum is having any details about it.. there is only few research going on few universities... not sure how much they can support our needs... see the western curriculum.. research are going on full wing in many university on this space.. you should not be surprised on the out come.



"micro technology" What now ?
I wrote three journal papers on nanotech almost 9 years ago in my bachelors, trust me there is a crap load of research on it. 

Now as far as research funding goes, hold your horses on that, we are not the west, half our population goes to bed hungry, whatever money we are flashing has generated in less than two decades. There is a long long loooooonnnnnggg way to go before you see western model of research in our universities. 

And for the outcome I am very optimistic, we are not in the forefront of technological breakthroughs, we are in a sense replicating certain feature in an aircraft already done by certain nation, hence the parameters are well defined with available technology proliferation/collaboration from tech giants like israel, Russia and france. It's not that we are setting out to make something never seen before in the world like americans/germans did. AMCA is achievable, and hopefully LCA will do the same for amca, what ALH did for the LCH!

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## ejaz007

*Contracts and Key Events*


*Feb 7/13:* India. While a French Rafale-B performs at Aero India 2013, negotiations grind on. Indias defence minister, A K Antony, describes negotiations as a 6-7 layer process, which then has to be sent to the Ministry of Finance. There will be no deal during Aero India, as the contract simply isnt ready. Antony adds that coming defense budget cuts wont delay the Rafale deal, but an election looms in 2014.

Indias Financial Express cites anonymous highly placed sources who say that remaining friction involves industrial issues. The Dassault team that visited the HAL facility in Nashik were said to have been disappointed by the infrastructure in place, and concerned that HAL will have trouble absorbing the required technology. Theyre also reportedly wrestling with Indias insistence on giving HAL lead integrator responsibility for decisions about workshare with other companies, while sticking Dassault with overall responsibility for the project. The French are trying to use the RFP as a starting point for discussions, while India insists that the RFPs terms are the final word. Economic Times | Financial Express.

*Jan 28/13:* PDL NG The DGA commits a EUR 55 million risk reduction contract for Thales to develop the next-generation PDL NG surveillance and targeting pod, as the successor to the Damocles pod. Another EUR 115 million tranche is expected by year end, and deliveries are expected to take place beginning in about 5 years, from 2018-2022.

The DGA touts this as a boost to the export attractiveness of French fighter jets, which is true. Targeting pods have become such an important ancillary that the Rafale cant really remain competitive without one that meets modern high-end standards. Its essentially part of the Fighters life-cycle modernization plan. Unlike its European competitors, which use LITENING-III pods from Israel, France is keeping full control over the technology and exportability by designing its own.

The bad news is twofold. One is that the Rafale will receive a pod in 2018 thats roughly equal to Sniper-SE and LITENING-SE pods being delivered right now. High design modularity ensures that both of its competitors will continue to evolve, swapping in better sensors and new technologies by the time PDL-NG appears.

The 2nd bit of bad news is that Frances need to do this themselves results in a final expected cost per targeting pod of EUR 10 million, in order to equip the French Rafale fleet with 45. Exports could help boost PDL-NG production, but first the Rafale must win some foreign orders. India, whose Mirage 2000s are getting life extensions, is an important target for both the Rafale and PDL-NG

France&#8217;s Rafale Fighters: Au Courant In Time?

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## kingdurgaking

sandy_3126 said:


> "micro technology" What now ?
> I wrote three journal papers on nanotech almost 9 years ago in my bachelors, trust me there is a crap load of research on it.
> 
> Now as far as research funding goes, hold your horses on that, we are not the west, half our population goes to bed hungry, whatever money we are flashing has generated in less than two decades. There is a long long loooooonnnnnggg way to go before you see western model of research in our universities.
> 
> And for the outcome I am very optimistic, we are not in the forefront of technological breakthroughs, *we are in a sense replicating certain feature in an aircraft already done by certain nation*, hence the parameters are well defined with available technology proliferation/collaboration from tech giants like israel, Russia and france. It's not that we are setting out to make something never seen before in the world like americans/germans did. AMCA is achievable, and hopefully LCA will do the same for amca, what ALH did for the LCH!



This is what i doubt in ... we are overestimating something .. and give false promise to nation... let us estimate pessimistically and do optimistically.. 

and your agreement on research is the reality... if we dont have the basic thing in universities , how do you expect the industries to cope up?.. The big picture is we want to build castle out of glass but there is less worker with literally nil practical experience.. the worker knows the technology and tells it is possible... but he does not have the know-how how to build with the technology.... so what he does is he adds all the safety things... and a point of time he builds a castle but with cement blocks here and there.. but the original requirement is only glass castle... 

similarly we build Tejas in this fashion... now we are moving into AMCA your argument is we will achieve with.. yes but with cement blocks AMCA is no tejas.. Tejas MK-2 is Tejas.. AMCA is totally a different dream and ambition ... Technology laid out underneath is totaly different compared to Tejas.. None of Tejas know-how can be applied on it.. Even the FBW or FBL will be done in different fashion.. It is not a copy paste code ...


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## IND151

Broadsword: Air Chief expects Rafale contract by mid-2013


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## sancho

kingdurgaking said:


> The thing which i am trying to explain here is ... we dont know what requirement will be there after 10-15 yrs... if we think Rafale can solve all the problem of the threat perception that is arising in next 10 -15 yrs then we are wrong... *Rafale is a immediate requirement to fill the gaps*



Which is wrong, the idea is long gone and MoD/IAF purposly chosed the one with the best future potential for the next 30 years, that is their assesment according to the air staff requirements, which is the base of the MMRCA competition!

The fact that they even want to increase the numbers, but add them later to the productionline as well shows, that they don't see it as a gap filler, but as a fighter with the technical capabilities to hold it's on in future as well, especially besides FGFA.
The point of view that by 2025 we will see only stealth fighters flying around is nuts, because most countries simply can't to procure and operate such large numbers of them. Even China will remain with several 100s of J10 and J11, with J20 in lower numbers on the upper side. IAF will have a mix of LCA, Rafale and MKI, with FGFA on the upper side. That increases our number of types, but also the variety of capabilities and weapons to do different roles.

=> no replacements, no roles, no cost advantages => no need for AMCA in IAF


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## sancho

sandy_3126 said:


> It's not that we are setting out to make something never seen before in the world like americans/germans did. AMCA is achievable, and hopefully LCA will do the same for amca, what ALH did for the LCH!



It is, because WE didn't do it before and WE still didn't have the basic available in the aero field. This project is not doable if we do it the same way we did LCA and that's how it looks at the moment. But it only works if we do it as we did it with ALH, get foreign partners for the design and for the engines at least and hope we do better with avionics and radar this time.


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## sancho

> *PDL NG: DGA to Thales rescue* (google translated)
> 
> This contract was expected for months, if not years: DGA confirmed this evening that it has awarded Thales a contract first "lifting risk" for an amount of  55 million to start development work of the new designation pod PDL NG (laser designation pod generation)...
> 
> ...The purpose of the program PDL NG is simple: it is to find a replacement for the current Damocles pod. But if it had been developed with strong financial support of United Arab Emirates, Paris is left alone to run PDL NG...
> 
> 
> ...Requested by the UAE in talks to buy Rafale, the integration of the Lockheed Martin Sniper pod has not been chosen by the DGA for the French operational, particularly in order to preserve the industrial sector. Another argument often cited by opponents of the Sniper is the inability for the U.S. to keep the nacelle shocks to the landing and catapult in its current configuration.
> 
> While the coarse resolution of the infrared sensor PDL NG will be less than half that of current Sniper, sources close to the matter specified the last year "Air & Cosmos" that technique "microscan" will double its resolution effective. Which should in theory allow display performance comparable to the nacelle U.S. ... but not before 2018.



http://translate.google.at/translate?hl=de&sl=fr&tl=en&u=http://www.air-cosmos.com/home.html


One more hint that we mostlikely go for the integration of Litening G4 into Mirage and Rafale. We just use the LDP competition to reduce the costs again.
And with the selection of SPICE 2000 to Mirage, it is likely to be integrated into Rafale (and LCA) too, would be great if we add SPIKE NLOS with a triple launcher to these fighters too, at least as long as a fighter version of HELINA is not available.


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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> Which is wrong, the idea is long gone and MoD/IAF purposly chosed the one with the best future potential for the next 30 years, that is their assesment according to the air staff requirements, which is the base of the MMRCA competition!
> 
> The fact that they even want to increase the numbers, but add them later to the productionline as well shows, that they don't see it as a gap filler, but as a fighter with the technical capabilities to hold it's on in future as well, especially besides FGFA.
> The point of view that by 2025 we will see only stealth fighters flying around is nuts, because most countries simply can't to procure and operate such large numbers of them.* Even China will remain with several 100s of *J10 and J11, with J20 in lower numbers on the upper side. IAF will have a mix of LCA, Rafale and MKI, with FGFA on the upper side. That increases our number of types, but also the variety of capabilities and weapons to do different roles.
> 
> => no replacements, no roles, no cost advantages => no need for AMCA in IAF




My friend for instance... if you are earning say Rs10K now and you are solving all the needs now.. you can do this for couple of years.. if you say i dont want anything more than 10K.. in next 1/2 a decade you will be below poverty.... similarly if you say Rafale along with the inventory your have mentioned is the solution for next 10-15 yrs then you are wrong.. if that is the case USAF will not have formalized the requirement for NGAD ... nor china will invest in J-20 or J-15 .... you need to keep on investing your time money and energy in something ... otherwise doom will knock the door...
Other thing is we are struggling in Making Tejas because we have skipped one generation in between... If you dont invest money and time on AMCA we will be having a situation like what we had in 80's ... we wont have any expertise with any knowledge on this .... there wont be any country who will be helping us in this ... it is a kind of a complex problem.. neither GOI nor IAF are so stupid to invest time money on AMCA.... already we got wounded once.... if we dont learn this lesson we are the biggest fools.. 

Let AMCA be developed ... let it meet the IAF requirements ... naturally it will replace Rafale.. Rafale will be moved to secondary roles... if you think the crores we are spending today in rafale for next 20-25 yrs you are wrong in next 10 yrs we are going to spend the equal amount of money again on just upgrade... instead buy new platform that is ours.... which will be wise in all dimension

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## sancho

kingdurgaking said:


> My friend for instance... if you are earning say Rs10K now and you are solving all the needs now.. you can do this for couple of years.. if you say i dont want anything more than 10K.. in next 1/2 a decade you will be below poverty....



That's why I will look to earn more money, so to upgrade my financial situation. That is the same that we do with fighters, because there capabilities are only good enough for around 10 to 15 years, then they will be upgraded to keep them capable enough for the requirements of the coming 10 to 15 years.
So there is no stillstand as you belive, Rafale has the potential to be highly capable for a long time and that's why we chose it.



kingdurgaking said:


> Other thing is we are struggling in Making Tejas because we have skipped one generation in between...



Wrong, we are struggling with Tejas, because of our own faults in the planing and development stages. Because we didn't prioritised what is really needed and what is really doable by ourselfs. That's the same mistake we do with AMCA now!
We do need a stealth fighter, but for IN and developed as a carrier fighter, but ADA/DRDO are pushing this development (just like they did back then with LCA) accoding their own interests and not with looking at what our county / our forces really needs. 



kingdurgaking said:


> Let AMCA be developed ... let it meet the IAF requirements ... naturally it will replace Rafale.. Rafale will be moved to secondary roles...



As explained before, that's not possible because FGFA / AURA does everything in A2A/A2G, but much better than AMCA and all roles that are left (CAS, CAP, escorts) would be done by none stealth fighters, because they will do the same at waaaay lower costs, or more effectively. That's where LCA, Rafale and mainly armed drones will come in the game and not another stealth fighter like you believe. These are the secondary roles, while FGFA and AURA will do the prime roles!


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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> That's why I will look to earn more money, so to upgrade my financial situation. That is the same that we do with fighters, because there capabilities are only good enough for around 10 to 15 years, then they will be upgraded to keep them capable enough for the requirements of the coming 10 to 15 years.
> So there is no stillstand as you belive, Rafale has the potential to be highly capable for a long time and that's why we chose it.
> 
> Wrong, we are struggling with Tejas, because of our own faults in the planing and development stages. Because we didn't prioritised what is really needed and what is really doable by ourselfs. That's the same mistake we do with AMCA now!
> We do need a stealth fighter, but for IN and developed as a carrier fighter, but ADA/DRDO are pushing this development (just like they did back then with LCA) accoding their own interests and not with looking at what our county / our forces really needs.
> 
> As explained before, that's not possible because FGFA / AURA does everything in A2A/A2G, but much better than AMCA and all roles that are left (CAS, CAP, escorts) would be done by none stealth fighters, because they will do the same at waaaay lower costs, or more effectively. That's where LCA, Rafale and mainly armed drones will come in the game and not another stealth fighter like you believe. These are the secondary roles, while FGFA and AURA will do the prime roles!



I believe in Rafale has potential but never it will have potential are capability equal to a 5 th generation fighter.. then why lot of countries are investing on it and buying them?.. definitely they are smarter than 4th generation fighters.. 
oke let me ask you a question.. you have a phone now.... a kind of smartphone... and you have iphone... which phone will you opt?... even if you posses the smartphone which you can upgrade the OS and use... you will prefer iphone right? same thing if AMCA is developed IAF will be thinking twice to upgrade Rafale which will cost the same money which we are spending now.. but if they use AMCA for the same money they can get the job done at less risk than Rafale... so naturally they do less expensive upgrade like they do with jaguar and use the entire life line of air frame.... if they buy AMCA(if developed) on long term the benefits is huge.. i hope you understand.. and i dont want to explain more...

secondly you are looking at a situation of country like france.. they dont need a fighter because they have friends next to them...there enemies are located far away places.... so even if they have a fighter of 5th gen or not it is fine.. they can take there UCAV and fight... but for India it is not the same.. we have smarter enemies who can take away our satellite ... DOD our servers and communication system.. may be AURA survives may be not.. in that case an entire fleet will be grounded a high risk.. we need manned fighters always on long term AMCA will be beneficial we cant always spend money to other countries... then the same loop will continue.. spend money to buy weapon from foreign countries.. naturally less money will be spend on R&D .... so no scope for an engineer to work on that field ... which means no one will join that field because there is less scope... eventually there will be less people to develop when a requirement comes... so delay and project gets scraped. which means spend more money to buy weapons from foreign countries.. so now you see the viscous loops? that is why we are struggling with tejas.. we dont have the expertise in proper planning and managing project of this scale... Trust me the bureaucrats are more intelligent than us .... they dont spend money that easily... if they spend Rs 1 they would see all the benefits..


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## sancho

kingdurgaking said:


> I believe in Rafale has potential but never it will have potential are capability equal to a 5 th generation fighter..



Of course not, just like a Silent Hornet or Silent Eagle won't be equal to F22 or F35, but that doesn't mean the earlier would be useless right? And they don't have to be equal, because they won't be used for the same roles anymore, but in roles where they can play out there advantages.




kingdurgaking said:


> oke let me ask you a question.. you have a phone now.... a kind of smartphone... and you have iphone... which phone will you opt?



The one that suits my requirements at best! I have a smartphone now and which to have my old slider back, because as a phone it was much better than any smartphone today. Longer standby, better micro, easier to write messages..., it simply suited my requirements more and if it didn't broke down, I would have never replaced it anytime soon, especially not with an Iphone  

The point remains, for IAF there is no fighter to replace for AMCA, there is no operational advantage through AMCA, there is no cost benefit by developing AMCA... so no need for AMCA.
Basically the same reasons why IAF don't need HALs HTT40 now, they have the Pilatus now, the HTT 40 won't add any operational advantages, developing it will cost IAF more than simply procuring more Pilatus.




kingdurgaking said:


> secondly you are looking at a situation of country like france..



Where? I was always talking about IAF and their situation in future


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## arp2041

*Transfer Of Some Critical Technology Being Negotiated For As Part Of India's MMRCA Contract [Illustration]*

The upwards of $10 billion USD deal with France for the acquisition of the Rafale fighter aircraft would involve local assembly, manufacturing offsets & Transfer of Technology [ToT].

This screenshot of the presentation slide, used by HAL's Chairman, during his talk at the Aero India 2013 International Seminar shows some of the critical technologies & sub-systems for which India is negotiating with France to be included as part of its Rafale acquisition.







In its mind, India would want France to hand over all the technologies used, with no restrictions on where it applies them subsequently. Realistically, it would start off with a position, whereby some hardware sub-systems could come directly from France, some that would be assembled in the country, sourcing the components & raw materials from original vendors, while some in which France would have to part with sufficient information for India to be in a position to make those components/sub-systems completely independent of French involvement, save for its certification - ToT. This position would be challenged by the French who'd be willing to offer less, asking for more. This back and forth would continue till they reach a mutually agreeable position, upon which the contract would be signed. Even after receiving the ToT, contractual obligation would dictate whether the same tech or manufacturing process could be applied in other projects - the case in point being the ToT received for growing Single Crystal Blades [SCB] used in the twin AL-31FP Turbofan engines powering the IAF's Sukhoi Su-30 MKIs1. While SCBs are being made for the Flanker engines, the Kaveri has not been able to reap the benefits.











Notes:

1 = "As HAL will do 80 per cent of the manufacturing, it will acquire new technologies like the directionally solidified blades, which will give us the technology for the future engines. Similarly, from the Sukhoi (Su-30 fighter deal) we acquired the single crystal blade technology, which will be the basis for all future turbine blades. This way, we get to master these technologies and meet our own requirements and exports, which is the thrust at HAL," Mr Mohanty said.

- HAL sees major spin-offs from AJT deal

"The aircraft engine has single crystal blades which are capable of withstanding very high temperatures. Considering that the aircraft is huge and has to operate in hot conditions, and its twin engines have the 11,500kg thrust each, the single crystal blades ensure that the thrust remains optimum. The Russians have given this technology to us for the first time."

- Force Magazine, October 2009

Transfer Of Some Critical Technology Being Negotiated For As Part Of India&#39;s MMRCA Contract [Illustration] - AA Me, IN

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## kurup

HAL will be 'main partner' in Rafale aircraft deal: Dassault


BANGALORE (PTI): *Identifying HAL as its "main partner" in the multirole combat aircraft deal, France's Dassault Aviation has said it will set up a joint venture company with Reliance Industries to work on the USD 10 billion Rafale project.*

It said the *Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) is the "main partner" of the French firm in the Indian contract*, which is one of the biggest aircraft deals in the world. The French company's Rafale fighter aircraft was shortlisted by India last year.

"*We have a special partnership with Reliance company. It as a private company wants to be in defence sector and we are supporting this partnership...

"We will create JV company with Reliance in India," *Dassault's Chief Executive Officer Eric Trappier told PTI here.

The French firm said the Joint Venture (JV) company would be set up after the deal is signed and expressed the hope that it would be signed within this year itself.

The company would be working with several private and public sector companies in India for completing the contract needs, Trappier said.

Asked about reports over Dassault seeking a bigger role for any Indian company in the production phase of the aircraft, he said there was "no confusion" on the issue and that his company was free to decide on its partners as stated by the IAF and the Defence Ministry.
*
The Dassault CEO said RIL would be its partner and would help it in managing a supply chain and project management of the programme and "they will help us to be in India".*

Dassault Aviation's Rafale aircraft was shortlisted by India early last year as it choice for procuring 126 Medium- Multirole Combat Aircraft (M-MRCA).

The French fighter had edged out five other aircraft including American F-16 and F-18, Russian MiG 35 and European Eurofighter to bag the contract.8th Feb

HAL will be 'main partner' in Rafale aircraft deal: Dassault - Brahmand.com

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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> Of course not, just like a Silent Hornet or Silent Eagle won't be equal to F22 or F35, but that doesn't mean the earlier would be useless right? And they don't have to be equal, because they won't be used for the same roles anymore, but in roles where they can play out there advantages.
> 
> The one that suits my requirements at best! I have a smartphone now and which to have my old slider back, because as a phone it was much better than any smartphone today. Longer standby, better micro, easier to write messages..., it simply suited my requirements more and if it didn't broke down, I would have never replaced it anytime soon, especially not with an Iphone
> 
> The point remains, for IAF there is no fighter to replace for AMCA, there is no operational advantage through AMCA, there is no cost benefit by developing AMCA... so no need for AMCA.
> Basically the same reasons why IAF don't need HALs HTT40 now, they have the Pilatus now, the HTT 40 won't add any operational advantages, developing it will cost IAF more than simply procuring more Pilatus.
> 
> Where? I was always talking about IAF and their situation in future



True but the advantage gets depleted as time passes because more capable threats are evolving .. thats why US Navy , USAF are looking for new fighters and have put requirements for the NGAD also..

The one suits your requirement is right so for how long.. you will definitely buy one in few years spending more than the current one.. but not upgrade by spending equal money... Similarly IAF is a customer who wants something out of the box.. where as strategic planners and bureaucrats are the one who will see the whole picture.. it has to be a win-win situation for the money they are spending.. that is need for both development of country as well as IAF... In case of HTT-40 IAF said no.. yeah they dont want to spend more from there budget and wait for it for next few years.. because they dont have anything to train... This is because of the situation i have told you in my previous post.. instead if you had continued from marut i am sure HTT-40 would be flying now.. It is a utter shame of IAF to ditch .. there are some marut which had been retired only by flying single digit flying hours.. if GOI and IAF had done some proper planning things wound not be what it is right now.. we have no expertise nor man power now because of the mistake done at that time.. this should not happen... other wise aero space will be a deprecated syllabus...

For argument sake which is never going to happen ... lets say france and Russia ditched us ... what will you do?... then IAF will not even have something like AMCA.. it will put the entire country is risk... rather than seeing things for present we have to see things on all dimensions .. we have to be self reliant ... one day or other we have to stand on our own leg... thats why i iterate AMCA development is must .... it becomes a success or failure it is different.. atleast we should give a try .... 

i mentioned france because you support UCAV more than manned fighters.... UCAV is good but it carries a danger.. it will not completely suit our needs... it will be useful in some areas ...


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## sancho

kingdurgaking said:


> True but the advantage gets depleted as time passes because more capable threats are evolving .. thats why US Navy , USAF are looking for new fighters and have put requirements for the NGAD also..



But that are US requirements and threat perceptions, not Indian! The most deadly threat to India will be J20, which is why we develop FGFA, anything below that, be it J11, J10, J15, JF17, F16s will be easily handled by LCA, Rafale and MKIs, with appropriate capabilities and numbers. 




kingdurgaking said:


> The one suits your requirement is right so for how long..



Till 2030 at least, because only then we will have to look for a replacement of the MKI and THEN, there might be a requirement for either a light or a medium class stealth fighter, but that is still a decade after AMCAs possible arrival.
If we would do such a project for once with a little bit of logic, the real requirements of the forces in mind + according to our our capabilities. It would go like this:

- N-LCA Tech demo program only, to learn basics about navalising
- learn as much as possible from FGFA development (NG techs) and Rafale production (modern production standards)

=> AMCA developed for IN and possibly export customers, with Dassault as a consulting partner for design and navalising (Brazil, or S. Africa as possible partners of the project and export customers)


When we have done that, we can develop a 5.5 or maybe 6th gen replacement for MKI later, since we learned and gained experience by then and since there would be a real requirement. What we see today instead, is the total chaos again, out of the wrong reasons. 




kingdurgaking said:


> i mentioned france because you support UCAV more than manned fighters.... UCAV is good but it carries a danger.. it will not completely suit our needs... it will be useful in some areas ...



I don't want us to go with France on UCAVs, but with Israel. They have the know how, but don't have the money, we lack the know how, but have the money and a suitable engine. It would be a perfect chance to go for a joint AURA and HALE dorne development, based on Kaveri. 
And drones will take over all areas, where they will be more effective than manned fighters. For the rest we have 4 typed of fighters for the next 30 to 50 years.


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## Abingdonboy




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## IND151

No Rafale, nuclear deals during Hollande visit | idrw.org


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## trident2010

Knew already, more wait !!


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## sancho

> *Sagem creates Indian subsidiary, Sagem Services India Private Ltd*
> 
> Aero India 2013, Bangalore, February 6, 2013
> 
> Sagem (Safran), the European leader in navigation, optronics and avionics systems and equipment and safety-critical software, has created Sagem Services India Private Ltd., a wholly-owned subsidiary that will be headquartered in New Delhi.
> 
> Primarily focused on maintenance, Sagem Services India will provide customer support for all Sagem avionics, optronics and inertial navigation systems and equipment in service in India.
> 
> The creation of Sagem Services India marks a major step forward in Sagems development in this country. Working closely with its customers, Sagem will be able to enhance its role in the development of Indias aerospace industry, and form new partnerships in all of its business sectors.
> 
> Already a contributor to several major Indian civil and military aircraft programs (1), Sagem works closely with Indian industry to supply avionics and navigation systems for both new aircraft and modernization programs.
> 
> Sagems new subsidiary will draw on the resources of its parent company, Safran, which already has some 2,100 employees in India.
> 
> 1  Sagem makes the flight control system for the ALH Dhruv helicopter. In addition, it makes Sigma laser gyro navigation systems, hundreds of which have been acquired for Indias Hawk trainers, Jaguar, MiG-27, MiG-29K, Sukhoi-30 MKI and LCA Tejas combat aircraft.



Sagem]Sagem


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## Abingdonboy

IND151 said:


> No Rafale, nuclear deals during Hollande visit | idrw.org



India makes a point NEVER to sign big deals during official visits- not news!


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## sancho

*Samtel-Thales FSO*
















> ...MMRCA offset and technology transfer negotiations continue. The new Samtel-Thales Avionics joint venture will be &#8220;the first electro-optic house in the country,&#8221; said executive director Puneet Kaura. *By 2015, the company intends to supply the infrared search-and-track system as standard equipment for the Dassault Rafale fighter for the Indian Air Force...*



http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-n...s-and-tech-transfer-are-hot-topics-aero-india


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## IND151

Livefist: HAL Articulates MMRCA Challenges

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## cloud_9

*Rafale jet talks brighten after rough patch: officials*​
NEW DELHI: India and France are speeding up negotiations on a $10 billion deal for 126 Rafale aircraft following months of delays because of disagreements over the cost of building them in India, two Indian Defence Ministry officials told Reuters.

India started exclusive talks with French Dassault Aviation's Rafale for a 126-plane order in January 2012, over the competing Eurofighter Typhoon . The two sides still have to sign a final contract.

*The deal is likely to be discussed during a two-day visit by French President Francois Hollande to India beginning on Thursday, but both sides have played down the chances of it being finalised.*

*The talks have progressed slowly because of differences about how to price technology transfer, sourcing of spares and the selection of an Indian partner, the officials said*.

"There are three issues of contention - pricing of transfer of technology, sourcing from India and the joint venture with Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL)," said a senior official at the ministry, who said negotiations had been delayed by a few months, largely because of those issues.

*Another official said the contentious points had been mostly resolved and the deal could be finalised as soon as July.*

Dassault declined to comment.

*The second official said Dassault had earlier asked India to pay up to $2 billion more for the future upgrading of technology that would be transferred over the 30-year life-cycle of the deal.*

French Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius said on Sunday that talks with India to complete the long-awaited first export order for Rafale were looking up. At an air show in Bangalore last week, India pledged not to let defence cuts stand in the way of efforts to finalise the deal.

*Following India's strong objections to the cost escalation, French has broadly agreed to review its decision but negotiations were still going on for calculating the price for the maintenance and life-cycle cost of the planes, the second official said.*

India has been insisting that at least 30-50 per cent of the value of the contract be sourced from Indian companies, while Dassault wanted to lower that per centage, saying Indian firms do not have the capacity to supply that quantity of parts, the official said.

India revised an offset policy for procurements of arms last year, and specifies that defence contract over 3 billion rupees must plough back at least 30 per cent of the contract value into India as offsets.

Since 2007, Indian companies have secured sourcing contracts worth more than $4 billion under this policy.

"The contention is also over the pricing - you can put different value to hardware, services including transfer of technology," said the first official, who declined to be identified because of the sensitivity of the issue.

Hollande, accompanied by ministers and corporate delegates, is likely to discuss the sale of nuclear plants to India and investment in other sectors, India's Foreign Ministry said.

Under the Rafale deal, Dassault is expected to send 18 ready-made jets, then manufacture the rest in India.

*India expects the deal will provide business of $4 billion to $5 billion to Indian companies, said the second ministry official, who has knowledge of the talks.*

Both officials said another contentious issue in the negotiations was the selection of India's state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) as partner of Dassault to manufacture planes in India.

Rafale has expressed doubts about the technological capability of HAL to manufacture such a sophisticated fighter jet, the official said. A HAL programme to manufacture advanced jet trainers is running years behind schedule.

*However, India has told French negotiators that provisions of entering into a joint venture with the HAL to produce fighter jets was non-negotiable and there was no question of involving any private company in the deal, the officials said.*

The visit by the French president could further help speed up the negotiations, could help speed up the negotiations, the second official said.

He said both countries were committed to the deal, and India's defence minister, A K Antony, and the Indian air force chief, N A K Browne, were making it a top priority during the upcoming fiscal year that begins in April.

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## trident2010

I like the offset policy clause. It brings some money and technology back to India which will be helpful in long run.


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## cloud_9

*Prime Ministers statement to the Media during the state visit of President of France *


> We expressed satisfaction with the progress in our defence cooperation, which is poised to reach a qualitatively new level. Discussions on the MMRCA contract are progressing well. We have also concluded negotiations on the Short Range Surface to Air Missile, which, once approved by the Government, will be co-developed and co-produced in India. There is a welcome shift from defence trade to co-development and co-production of advanced defence items in India, which will help expand our domestic production base and strengthen the India-France strategic partnership.

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## shree835

*Cameron aims to steal IAF fighter deal from France: Report*

British Prime Minister David Cameron will attempt to steal a six billion pound Indian defence contract from under the nose of French President Francois Hollande when he visits New Delhi this week, according to a media report.

The Prime Minister will use a trip to India to try to persuade the New Delhi government to buy more than 100 Eurofighter jets after the French President left empty-handed this week, the Daily Mail reported ahead of Camerons three-day official visit which begins from Monday. 

French contractor Dassault Aviation was chosen last year as the preferred bidder for the contract to supply Rafale jet fighters to the Indian Air Force under a USD 10-billion deal  a blow for the UK-German-Spanish-Italian consortium, which includes Britains BAE Systems, which builds the Eurofighter.

But Hollandes hopes of signing a final contract came to nothing this week  despite him squeezing in a visit before Cameron. The French premier also failed to secure any major trade deals, the British paper claimed.

That has sparked hopes in Downing Street that Mr Cameron can persuade the Indian authorities to rethink the deal and buy the Eurofighter instead, it said.

Officials made clear that the Prime Minister wants to steal a march on Mr Hollande, who has repeatedly clashed with Mr Cameron, the paper said.

Cameron angered the French by offering to put out a red carpet for entrepreneurs fleeing Hollandes new 75 per cent top rate of tax, while the French government retaliated with the same offer for British businessmen if the UK quits the EU in the referendum Cameron has offered.

Quoting a British government source, the Daily Mail said: Hollande was in India this week and a deal has not been signed so we will want to find out from the Indians how their talks are progressing with the French.

A No 10 official added: We respect the fact that the Indians have chosen their preferred bidder and are currently negotiating with the French. Of course, we will continue to promote Eurofighter as a great fast jet not just in India but around the world.

However Prime Minister Manmohan Singh last week said that discussions on the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) (Rafale) contract are progressing well.

Cameron will lead the largest ever trade delegation of ministers and businessmen to India, designed to strike defence, energy and education deals with the emerging superpower, the paper said.

Cameron aims to &#8216;steal&#8217; IAF fighter deal from France: Report | idrw.org


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## trident2010

Keep trying !!


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## Dandpatta

Let the Brits lick our boots if they want our deals so badly !


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## Abingdonboy

shree835 said:


> *Cameron aims to &#8216;steal&#8217; IAF fighter deal from France: Report*
> 
> British Prime Minister David Cameron will attempt to &#8220;steal&#8221; a six billion pound Indian defence contract from under the nose of French President Francois Hollande when he visits New Delhi this week, according to a media report.
> 
> &#8220;The Prime Minister will use a trip to India to try to persuade the New Delhi government to buy more than 100 Eurofighter jets after the French President left empty-handed this week,&#8221; the Daily Mail reported ahead of Cameron&#8217;s three-day official visit which begins from Monday.
> 
> French contractor Dassault Aviation was chosen last year as the preferred bidder for the contract to supply Rafale jet fighters to the Indian Air Force under a USD 10-billion deal &#8211; a blow for the UK-German-Spanish-Italian consortium, which includes Britain&#8217;s BAE Systems, which builds the Eurofighter.
> 
> But Hollande&#8217;s hopes of signing a final contract came to nothing this week &#8211; despite him squeezing in a visit before Cameron. The French premier also failed to secure any major trade deals, the British paper claimed.
> 
> &#8220;That has sparked hopes in Downing Street that Mr Cameron can persuade the Indian authorities to rethink the deal and buy the Eurofighter instead,&#8221; it said.
> 
> &#8220;Officials made clear that the Prime Minister wants to steal a march on Mr Hollande, who has repeatedly clashed with Mr Cameron,&#8221; the paper said.
> 
> Cameron angered the French by offering to put out a &#8220;red carpet&#8221; for entrepreneurs fleeing Hollande&#8217;s new 75 per cent top rate of tax, while the French government retaliated with the same offer for British businessmen if the UK quits the EU in the referendum Cameron has offered.
> 
> Quoting a British government source, the Daily Mail said: &#8220;Hollande was in India this week and a deal has not been signed so we will want to find out from the Indians how their talks are progressing with the French.&#8221;
> 
> A No 10 official added: &#8220;We respect the fact that the Indians have chosen their preferred bidder and are currently negotiating with the French. Of course, we will continue to promote Eurofighter as a great fast jet not just in India but around the world.&#8221;
> 
> However Prime Minister Manmohan Singh last week said that &#8220;discussions on the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) (Rafale) contract are progressing well.&#8221;
> 
> Cameron will lead the largest ever trade delegation of ministers and businessmen to India, designed to strike defence, energy and education deals with the emerging superpower, the paper said.
> 
> Cameron aims to &#8216;steal&#8217; IAF fighter deal from France: Report | idrw.org



Wtf?!! It is a bit late in the day for all of this. Cameron is a complete idiot. 


Keep dreaming you out of touch toff.

In his visit to India he's got some explaining to do wrt the AW deal so if he thinks he's going to come over to India and have a jolly old time where he wals away with business he can dream on. 


Wrt Hollande not securing any deals- this is how India works, it NEVER signs a major deal during a visit. As it is the French are set to secure two mega deals soon- the AREVA nuke plant and the MMRCA, how can the Daily Mail claim Hallande's visit was a failure?


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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> it NEVER signs a major deal during a visit.



C17 when Obama came, Mirage 2000 upgrade when Sarkozy came, fighter and helicopter deals when Putin came.


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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> C17 when Obama came, Mirage 2000 upgrade when Sarkozy came, fighter and helicopter deals when Putin came.



Well this is what I have read- maybe it only applies for deals over $10BN?


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## shree835

Abingdonboy said:


> Wtf?!! It is a bit late in the day for all of this. Cameron is a complete idiot.
> 
> 
> Keep dreaming you out of touch toff.
> 
> In his visit to India he's got some explaining to do wrt the AW deal so if he thinks he's going to come over to India and have a jolly old time where he wals away with business he can dream on.
> 
> 
> Wrt Hollande not securing any deals- this is how India works, it NEVER signs a major deal during a visit. As it is the French are set to secure two mega deals soon- the AREVA nuke plant and the MMRCA, how can the Daily Mail claim Hallande's visit was a failure?



Believe Cameron managed to bring down the price of Typhoon....Some time back there was news that, he was discussing with rest of the Eurofighter partner about the price.


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## Abingdonboy

shree835 said:


> Believe Cameron managed to bring down the price of Typhoon....Some time back there was news that, he was discussing with rest of the Eurofighter partner about the price.



So what????

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## shree835

Abingdonboy said:


> So what????



Before few days back I saw a documentary on NDTV&#8230;As they says Now French are coming up with the different conditions and TOT pricing &#8230;Due to that Pricing of MMRCA deal is going high&#8230;.And Britain is keeping close eyes on it. So might be we can see something surprising.


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## Abingdonboy

shree835 said:


> Before few days back I saw a documentary on NDTV&#8230;As they says Now French are coming up with the different conditions and TOT pricing &#8230;Due to that Pricing of MMRCA deal is going high&#8230;.And Britain is keeping close eyes on it. So might be we can see something surprising.


No chance- if the L1 candidate (Dassualt) cannot deliver then the deal is scrapped- it doesn't automatically go to the L2 contender- this would just lead to every contender in these bids to intially purpsfully over-pricing allowing the L1 contender to enter into talks and then for this L2 candidate to come back with a revised bid and undercutting the L1 bidder! L2 contenders cannot revise their bids and re-submit them to the MoD- this would make a mockery of the entire process!


No matter what David Cameron says, there is next to 0 chance of the EFT now winning the MMRCA deal. If talks between the MoD/GoI and Dssualt collapse this will mark the end of the MMRCA competition, India is unlikely to launch a revised MMRCA bid, instead it will order more MKIs and LCAs and hope the FGFA and AMCA come sooner than later. 


Don't believe what the fools in the Indian press tell you. Listen to what the French Pres had to say a few days ago- talks are going well.

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## shree835

Abingdonboy said:


> No chance- if the L1 candidate (Dassualt) cannot deliver then the deal is scrapped- it doesn't automatically go to the L2 contender- this would just lead to every contender in these bids to intially purpsfully over-pricing allowing the L1 contender to enter into talks and then for this L2 candidate to come back with a revised bid and undercutting the L1 bidder! L2 contenders cannot revise their bids and re-submit them to the MoD- this would make a mockery of the entire process!
> 
> 
> No matter what David Cameron says, there is next to 0 chance of the EFT now winning the MMRCA deal. If talks between the MoD/GoI and Dssualt collapse this will mark the end of the MMRCA competition, India is unlikely to launch a revised MMRCA bid, instead it will order more MKIs and LCAs and hope the FGFA and AMCA come sooner than later.
> 
> 
> Don't believe what the fools in the Indian press tell you. Listen to what the French Pres had to say a few days ago- talks are going well.



Discussion was there on National News Channel, not sure how far one can agree with them.... Can u link me the details what French say on MMRCA deal...??


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## Bang Galore

Abingdonboy said:


> No chance- if the L1 candidate (Dassualt) cannot deliver then the deal is scrapped- it doesn't automatically go to the L2 contender- this would just lead to every contender in these bids to intially purpsfully over-pricing allowing the L1 contender to enter into talks and then for this L2 candidate to come back with a revised bid and undercutting the L1 bidder! L2 contenders cannot revise their bids and re-submit them to the MoD- this would make a mockery of the entire process!



I don't think you are correct. L2 cannot revise the bid after L1 has been selected for negotiations, however if the deal fails for whatever reason with L1, L2 *can* be called for negotiations. L2 is there for a precise reason, to let L1 know that there is someone else at the door.

I do agree that the chances for EF are miniscule but there is a chance, a very very small one. The deals is the France's to lose and nothing I have seen suggests that they will lose it.

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## Abingdonboy

shree835 said:


> Discussion was there on National News Channel, not sure how far one can agree with them.... Can u link me the details what French say on MMRCA deal...??



Talks on Rafale deal progressing well, PM says after meeting French president - Times Of India

BBC News - Manmohan Singh: French fighter jet talks 'going well'


Rafale deal talks with India progressing well: French Prez, Work , Aninews

Rafale deal talks with India progressing well: French - newsR VIDEO

Rafale jet talks brighten after rough patch | Reuters

Rafale deal discussions with India progressing well, says French president | IND TV USA

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## MehrotraPrince



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## MehrotraPrince

Old but interesting news about RBE2 AESA Radar as well as *Meteor BVR Missile trials*, tests were conducted on 4th and 10th Oct 2012.

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## DrSomnath999

*GULF NEWS CLAIM FRENCH RAFALE LOST IN INDIA & INDIA TO GO FOR TYPHOON*



> Negotiations on for fighter deal&#8232;
> In a reply to a question on UAE purchase of Rafale or Typhoon fighters, Al Ketbi said that two teams are in negotiations with both companies.
> &#8220;There are two teams and they are in negotiations. The UAE Armed Forces will announce these deals in due time, once reached,&#8221; said Al Ketbi.
> According to military experts, the UAE has almost turned down the deal with France after it lost its deal with India. &#8220;The Indians will be purchasing the British Typhoon fighter,&#8221; they said.
> Theodore Karasik, head of research and consultancy at the Institute for the Near East and Gulf Military Analysis (INEGMA), told the Gulf News that the British prime minister is in Indian now for this deal.
> &#8220;The British PM is in Indian for this fighter deal and he might be coming to the UAE to seal the deal with the UAE government to purchase Typhoon fighters,&#8221; said Karasik.
> 
> UAE Armed Forces sign 17 deals | GulfNews.com



Seriously Is this Staff reporter is insane or on drugs ,i mean He had declare rafale the loser & india gonna buy Typhoon.


I mean ( W.T.F) is this reporter thinking

Well dassault should sue this author for garbage reporting

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## sancho

Wrt Thales - Samtel and Rafale offests once more, some reports from Aero India:



> MMRCA offset and technology transfer negotiations continue. The new Samtel-Thales Avionics joint venture will be the first electro-optic house in the country, said executive director Puneet Kaura. *By 2015, the company intends to supply the infrared search-and-track system as standard equipment for the Dassault Rafale fighter for the Indian Air Force.* Meanwhile, the Thales-Bharat Electronics surface radar joint venture will be fully operational by March, Eric Lenseigne, Thaless country head for India, told AIN.
> 
> Two joint ventures involving Tata also reported progress: one with Lockheed Martin supplies airframe parts for the C-130J as an offset for the Indian buy; the other with Sikorsky supplies cabins for the S-92 helicopter.



Budget Cuts, Offsets and Tech Transfer Are Hot Topics at Aero India | Aviation International News







Which again shows that FSO might be produced in India, including diverting the production of the IR channel, which French forces don't buy anymore, but is available as an option for India and other export customers.


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## Abingdonboy

DrSomnath999 said:


> *GULF NEWS CLAIM FRENCH RAFALE LOST IN INDIA & INDIA TO GO FOR TYPHOON*
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously Is this Staff reporter is insane or on drugs ,i mean He had declare rafale the loser & india gonna buy Typhoon.
> 
> 
> I mean ( W.T.F) is this reporter thinking
> 
> Well dassault should sue this author for garbage reporting



And I thought Indian media was bad! 

What an effing joke!

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## anant_s

Bang Galore said:


> I don't think you are correct. L2 cannot revise the bid after L1 has been selected for negotiations, however if the deal fails for whatever reason with L1, L2 *can* be called for negotiations. L2 is there for a precise reason, to let L1 know that there is someone else at the door.
> 
> I do agree that the chances for EF are miniscule but there is a chance, a very very small one. The deals is the France's to lose and nothing I have seen suggests that they will lose it.



No thats not the case.
I'll describe the procedure briefly.
In two part tender system, a bidder is asked to submit two envelopes one containing technical bid and the other contains commercial bid with some validity date.
Now first technical bids are opened and evaluated in manner prescribed in initial tendering stage (in MMRCa for example they had technical evaluation by means of data and capability submitted by manufacturer and later by actual flights).
This data is compiled in form of a Technical Evaluation Report, which is then sent to a committee that goes through the recommendations and selects which of the bidders meet the technical requirements described in tender. Effectively it is a filtering process.
After this they open commercial bids which obviously contains certain conditions on pricing. The whole costing is done (in MMRCA case Life cycle cost was selection criteria) and based on this bidders are ranked Lowest 1, Lowest 2.. (L-1, L-2 etc). Now as a standard procedure, the results are announced and L-1 is called for negotiations which are underway. the more complex the negotiations more is the time taken for talks.
Now supposing the talks fail on some account, L-2 cannot be called for negotiations (and hence the order) and as per exisitng CVC guidelines, the whole process is re-tendered.
However this inevitably means cost escalations.

However my view on the talks is that both Indian and French governments till date have spoken very little on the negotiations and that too has been positive. 
It is our media who is spreading these stories of Talks failing etc and i don't think these stroies should be paid any attention.
On a lighter note Think of a Girl's father who is looking for a prospective groom, he has all right to take his own sweet time to be fully assured that he is taking the best possible decision, isn't it?


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## Sergi

anant_s said:


> No thats not the case.
> I'll describe the procedure briefly.
> In two part tender system, a bidder is asked to submit two envelopes one containing technical bid and the other contains commercial bid with some validity date.
> Now first technical bids are opened and evaluated in manner prescribed in initial tendering stage (in MMRCa for example they had technical evaluation by means of data and capability submitted by manufacturer and later by actual flights).
> This data is compiled in form of a Technical Evaluation Report, which is then sent to a committee that goes through the recommendations and selects which of the bidders meet the technical requirements described in tender. Effectively it is a filtering process.
> After this they open commercial bids which obviously contains certain conditions on pricing. The whole costing is done (in MMRCA case Life cycle cost was selection criteria) and based on this bidders are ranked Lowest 1, Lowest 2.. (L-1, L-2 etc). Now as a standard procedure, the results are announced and L-1 is called for negotiations which are underway. the more complex the negotiations more is the time taken for talks.
> Now supposing the talks fail on some account, L-2 cannot be called for negotiations (and hence the order) and as per exisitng CVC guidelines, the whole process is re-tendered.
> However this inevitably means cost escalations.
> 
> However my view on the talks is that both Indian and French governments till date have spoken very little on the negotiations and that too has been positive.
> It is our media who is spreading these stories of Talks failing etc and i don't think these stroies should be paid any attention.
> On a lighter note Think of a Girl's father who is looking for a prospective groom, he has all right to take his own sweet time to be fully assured that he is taking the best possible decision, isn't it?



Rafael and EF were short listed on Techinical norms. And commercial bits make Rafale L1 and EF L2. 

Standard procedure is to negotiate with L1 and keep L2 on standby. If negotiations fail L2 will be call in for tender and negotiations start with them. 

If it fail with L2 too then the tender itself will be scrapped as only two contenders were short listed. 

There is a reason why EF side played a lot of games. And in fact there are many statements availbe which say EF will revise its bit in negotiations if talks with Rafale fail , which they want to.

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## sancho

Some pics and news of the last few days:











Google translated



> *Defence plans to stop orders of 225 copies*
> 
> The government plans to reduce the final target of Rafale, which could increase from 286 to 225 units, according to several sources. Savings that would be generated in the very long term. And the Air Force change of model...



Link

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## sancho

Some of Rafales hardpoint configs:

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## sancho

Crossposting from the MP forum:

*Eric Trappier (Dassault CEO) Interview , BFMTV; March 18*


> - "Negotiations continue with India"
> - "Industrial clauses are longer to negotiate"
> - *"With the Indian authorities, we set a goal [end of negotiations] this summer"*
> - *"18 aircraft will be entirely built in France, and then there will be a gradual increase in the manufacture of parts in India, step by step, to reach in the end 75/80% of the aircraft"*
> - "This first contract is important, there will be a ripple effect"



Credits to Olybrius

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## anant_s

sancho said:


> With the Indian authorities, we set a goal [end of negotiations] this summer
Click to expand...


Thats very encouraging to note and hope should silence the Doubting Thomases


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## sancho

anant_s said:


> Thats very encouraging to note and hope should silence the Doubting Thomases



Yes, but also that such a high ammount of each fighter will be build in India, will boost our industry for sure and that's what MoD wanted with this competition.

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## anant_s

sancho said:


> Yes, but also that such a high ammount of each fighter will be build in India, will boost our industry for sure and that's what MoD wanted with this competition.



Absolutely, GoI wanted not just hardware for IAF but also give a boost to Indian aviation manufacturing industry. 
Who knows if Dassault and HAL are able to develop some local vendors for few parts of the assembly and Rafale wins more orders around the world, France may outsource part of manufacturing to India making Rafale even more competitive. This is a win-win situation for both countries.


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## sancho

*Rafale costs for French forces*

Ttotal program cost - 44.2 billion &#8364;

Unit cost (excluding development costs): 

Rafale B (Two-seater) - 71.2 M &#8364; / 92,2 M $
Rafale C (Single-seater) - 66.2 M &#8364; / 84,5 M $
Rafale M (Naval) - 76.1 M &#8364; / 97,1 M $

http://www.senat.fr/rap/a12-150-8/a12-150-81.pdf

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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> *Rafale costs for French forces*
> 
> Ttotal program cost - 44.2 billion &#8364;
> 
> Unit cost (excluding development costs):
> 
> Rafale B (Two-seater) - 71.2 M &#8364; / 92,2 M $
> Rafale C (Single-seater) - 66.2 M &#8364; / 84,5 M $
> Rafale M (Naval) - 76.1 M &#8364; / 97,1 M $
> 
> http://www.senat.fr/rap/a12-150-8/a12-150-81.pdf


Whoa, this boggles the mind! The unit costs have been speculated for some time but now of this is the official amount, just WOW! 

It will be interesting if production in India has any affect on the unit price, IMHO the savings/increases will be negligible when production begins on India.


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## anant_s

> France on Tuesday dangled the possibility of manufacturing its Rafale fighter plane in Malaysia if the nation selected the aircraft as its new combat jet.
> 
> &#8220;We are considering an assembly line in Malaysia,&#8221; said Eric Trappier, chief executive of the Rafale&#8217;s builder Dassault Aviation, in a telephone interview from the Langkawi air show in northern Malaysia.
> Malaysia is looking to buy 18 combat fighters to replace its ageing Russian Mig-29s, with the Eurofighter, Boeing&#8217;s F-18 and Saab&#8217;s Gripen also in the running.
> 
> The multi-role Rafale, which entered service in the French military in 2001, can carry out air-ground or air-sea attacks, reconnaissance, aerial interception or nuclear strike missions.
> 
> France is keen to make its first foreign sale of the Rafale, which has struggled to find buyers, to support a project that has cost tens of billions of euros.
> 
> India has selected the Rafale, with most of the 126 fighter jets they plan to buy expected to be built there if the final contract is signed this year as hoped.
> 
> Malaysia is keen for its local companies to be involved in the manufacturing, and Trappier said that Dassault has spent considerable effort in lining up local suppliers should the Rafale be selected.
> 
> Dassault has already signed deals with Malaysian companies CTRM, Zetro Aerospace and Sapura, he noted.
> 
> Two Rafales were at the Langkawi air show to provide demonstration flights.



France says Malaysia can build jets if it buys Rafale | idrw.org

France is deseprately trying to find new markets for Rafale. But yes as @ Sancho has pointed out, the unit price tags are very high and unless some sort of outsourcing of manufacturing and/or new buyers are found, this is too big a burden for france to shoulder alone.


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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> It will be interesting if production in India has any affect on the unit price, IMHO the savings/increases will be negligible when production begins on India.



No doubt and since that price also included taxes in Europe, the cost produced in India should be different. However our total cost will also include licence production costs, but at least it gives a hint on the Rafale costs compared to other fighters.



anant_s said:


> France is deseprately trying to find new markets for Rafale. But yes as @ Sancho has pointed out, the unit price tags are very high and unless some sort of outsourcing of manufacturing and/or new buyers are found, this is too big a burden for france to shoulder alone.



Actually, by the fact that Dassault is making much more money with the civil aerospace sales and that they only join competitions now, where politics seems to have less importance (did not competet in S.Korea and Japan), it shows that they aren't so desperate like the EF consortium for example.
On the other hand, Thales, Sagem or the French government would definitely want exports, since that would benefit them too.

Wrt to the price, it actually shows that the flyaway cost is as expected earlier at a reasonable level, below of what the EF partners pay (around $100 M per fighter) and even the USN pays around $68 M each F18SH according their budgets releases and it is technically less capable than the Rafale.
What is more costly for the Rafale are the system costs, which includes spares, training and support, just like the costs for European weapons are higher compared to US once.

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## Storm Force

With regards these prices


Rafale B (Two-seater) - 71.2 M &#8364; / 92,2 M $
Rafale C (Single-seater) - 66.2 M &#8364; / 84,5 M $
Rafale M (Naval) - 76.1 M &#8364; / 97,1 M $



Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/4347-mrca-news-discussions-555.html#ixzz2OwToFUMA

I think the INDIAN RAFALE will F4 OR F3 version which includes an AESA radar so FLYWAY COST maybe higher than above

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## Srinivas



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## sancho

> *UN arms treaty won&#8217;t hit ties with India: France*
> 
> France has assured India that the UN Arms Trade Treaty &#8212; which was passed by a massive majority of the United Nations General Assembly (UNGA) on Tuesday night &#8212; will not affect the defence relationship between the two countries.
> 
> Although the French government voted in favour of the resolution, it has said that India's concerns are legitimate and has given firm and public support to the Indian position on "contract protection", sources said. New Delhi has been upset with the US and UK for not accommodating Delhi's concerns...
> 
> ...Paris, which is a major supplier of arms &#8212; and is part of the recent multi-billion dollar deal on Rafale jets &#8212; has been quick to assuage concerns on the Indian side. Sources said French interlocutors had worked very closely with Indian officials in New York and Geneva as negotiations were carried out on the text of the treaty. In fact, it was due to close coordination between New Delhi and Paris that the draft text of the treaty &#8212; in its final stages &#8212; was earlier going to accommodate India's concerns...



UN arms treaty wont hit ties with India: France - Indian Express

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## proud_indian

sancho said:


> UN arms treaty won&#8217;t hit ties with India: France - Indian Express



as someone said

"if you want to gather honey don't kick over the beehive"


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## IndianTiger

need confirmation


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## Ajaxpaul

*MMRCA Negotiations Stalled Over Dassault-HAL Tussle: Report*

Livefist: MMRCA Negotiations Stalled Over Dassault-HAL Tussle: Report


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## IndoUS

I am with Dassault with this one you can't have HAL take over the production and then blame Dassault in case HAL messes up and delays the delivery.


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## RPK

*Dassault wants HAL role separated, $20-bn combat aircraft jet deal hits air-pocket - Indian Express*


The government's negotiations with Dassault on the $20-billion deal to buy 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft have come to a standstill after the French aviation firm informed authorities that it cannot be held responsible for the 108 aircraft to be produced by HAL (Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd).

What started as a point of difference between the defence ministry and Dassault over the role of HAL escalated after the firm told Indian negotiators that the government will have to sign separate contracts &#8212; one with Dassault for 18 'fly-away' aircraft and another with HAL, which will produce 108 jets under licence.

Dassault said it will supply manufacturing kits and equipment to HAL on time after which the contract with HAL will take over and Dassault will play no further role.

MoD is learnt to have completely rejected this suggestion and made it clear to Dassault that it will be solely responsible for the sale and delivery of all 126 aircraft. The deal will be only with Dassault and it will be the single point of contact, sources said.

The problem has its roots in the request for proposal document, which mandated that the winning firm will supply 18 aircraft and licence manufacture 108 in India. Also, it specified HAL as the prime integrator for this purpose.

After winning the bid, Dassault sought clarity on HAL's role and said it should have the freedom to decide the degree to which it intends to involve HAL. However, MoD clarified in January that HAL was mandated as the prime integrator and would remain so.

This seems to be the cause of the trouble, sources said, as none of the bidders held any discussions with HAL before submitting bids. Therefore, HAL-related issues were possibly not factored into the bids and to now work out the terms and conditions with HAL could prove tough.

It is learnt that Dassault has been at it for a while, but time is beginning to run out with sources indicating that MoD does not want this to linger beyond this month.


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## Thorough Pro

Will india ever finalise this deal?

AYE DEAL VEE OS KANJRI VERGA HO GAYA HAI JERY NACH NACH BUDHI HO JANDI AYE PAR DENDI KISI NUN NAYEEN....

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## ejaz007

*India-France giant fighter jet deal stalled*


NEW DELHI: India's negotiations with France's Dassault Aviation on a $12-billion deal for Rafale fighter jets have stalled due to disagreements over the production of the planes in India, a report said Friday.

The defence deal, one of the biggest ever, was to see the manufacture of the first 18 of the jets in France with the remainder to be produced under licence by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), a state-run Indian aerospace behemoth.

The Indian Express newspaper, citing anonymous sources in its report, said that Dassault had refused to take responsibility for the 108 jets to be manufactured by HAL, sparking a row with New Delhi.

The French firm reportedly told Indian officials that New Delhi would have to negotiate two contracts, one with Dassault for 18 fighters and the other with HAL for the remaining 108 aircraft.

The defence ministry "completely rejected this suggestion and made it clear to Dassault that it (the French company) will be solely responsible for the sale and delivery of all 126 aircraft," the newspaper reported, citing sources.

Dassault is thought to have reservations about the ability of HAL, a firm renowned for its inefficiencies, to handle the complex manufacturing and technology transfers which are a crucial part of the deal.

The Rafale beat off stiff competition from six rivals from Russia, the US and Europe last year when India selected the French fighter to replace its ageing fleet.

Its main rival, the Eurofighter made by European group EADS, has remained in India and is still hoping to bag the deal in case Dassault is unable to conclude the negotiations successfully.

A Dassault spokeswoman said she was unable to comment immediately on the report.

The Rafale has carried out bombing missions in Afghanistan, Libya and most recently in Mali, where it is currently flying sorties targeting Islamist militants.

India's air force chief said in February that the country hopes to sign the deal with Dassault Aviation by the middle of the year.

India-France giant fighter jet deal stalled - thenews.com.pk

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## DANGER-ZONE

ejaz007 said:


> *India-France giant fighter jet deal stalled*
> India-France giant fighter jet deal stalled - thenews.com.pk



Does every defence deal in India has to go through a Delay or controversies .. ?
Grap on the jets and let the EGOS go.


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## air marshal

India's negotiations with France's Dassault Aviation on a $12-billion deal for Rafale fighter jets have stalled due to disagreements over the production of the planes in India, a report said Friday.

Read more: AFP: India-France giant fighter jet deal stalled: report


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## sancho

IndoUS said:


> I am with Dassault with this one you can't have HAL take over the production and then blame Dassault in case HAL messes up and delays the delivery.



Crossposting from IDF

It has less to do with HALs production line, or their capability, but that Dassault wants more of the production for them and their JV partner Reliance! This is a matter of economic benefit of 2 privat companies and MoD should be very clear about it to Dassault, that they are not in the position to demand anything!

'Rafale deal likely by mid-2013' | Business Standard

..:: India Strategic ::. IAF: Rafale Partners with Reliance


We have also seen in the HAWK deal, what happens when the foreign manufacturer just provide the kits, without the necessary toolings and things he is not responsible anymore. After we punished them, the production at HAL went without any issues. Same must be the case with MMRCA, Dassault is responsible for the complete deal and have to provide HAL with anything it needs to fullfil the agreement and not to divert the production to their own partners. Btw, what know how does Reliance have in the aero field, that makes them to a better choice than HAL? Can anybody point this out?

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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> . Btw, what know how does Reliance have in the aero field, that makes them to a better choice than HAL? Can anybody point this out?



Because some people are naive enough to think in the case of defence (and beyond) pvt company=superior. In some cases this is true but it is not a general rule to live by. And anyway I don't think Reliance is the best pvt player Dassualt could have tied up with , given the way they have mis-handled the Mumbai Metro and Delhi Metro's Airprot express line.


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## IND151

* Tussle over HAL&#8217;s role in Manufacturing of Rafale fighter jet 126 combat aircraft is finally out in open, Dassault&#8217;s demands might be a deal breaker as Dassault wants to control Production of the aircraft and wants to maintain its control over the technology of the aircraft.*

*Dassault has been actively promoting Reliance aerospace has a main support company for HAL, Dassault has been trying to push a bigger role for Reliance aerospace in a way that will lead to lesser dominance of the HAL in Rafale production in India, Expert see Dassault demands has a way to deny HAL transfer of critical technology and to maintain its grip over their property,but whole stubborn attitude of Dassault might be a deal breaker for them.*

While Eurofighter consortium have been keeping close watch over the whole negotiation with French and Indian negotiators, and have been counting on French attitude for them to re enter into the multi dollar fighter deal. *According to experts India will not agree on Dassault&#8217;s demand for two separate contracts to be signed for the deal* which includes one for the 18 aircraft to be built by the firm in France and the other for the 108 aircraft which are be integrated in India by the HAL.

*Eurofighter consortium have agreed to have a relook again at the price and have promised the aircraft could be delivered within months and that the final price could come down.*India has been trying to work on a deal with French company so has to not waste one year of hectic negotiations which took place, but if solution doesn't come out of this tussle then and Indian team will be forced to open negotiations with Eurofighter consortium over possible sale of Eurofighter Typhoon.




Will Eurofighter consortium have the last laugh in MMRCA Deal ?? | idrw.org

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## Agnostic_Indian

if Typhoon comes in mki would have to shift focuses on strike capabilities because initially Typhoon wouldn't have much air to ground capabilities.


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## sancho

Agnostic_Indian said:


> if Typhoon comes in mki would have to shift focuses on strike capabilities because initially Typhoon wouldn't have much air to ground capabilities.



Don't fall on the media hype, the chances for the EF to be considered again, or at all were and are minimal. Be it costs, capability, or availability, it is simply a bad choice for IAF in the configuration that will be available in the next years. Also even if the EF would come, MKI might have the superior radar detection, while it were especially the western A2G weapons that would be important alternatives for IAF, next to the Russian and coming Indian once. MKI for sure is more capable in A2G than the EF, but so is the Mirage 2000, or the Mig 29 UPG, it simply is not a useful multi role fighter at the moment, or anytime soon.

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## ghaja

sancho said:


> Don't fall on the media hype, the chances for the EF to be considered again, or at all were and are minimal. Be it costs, capability, or availability, it is simply a bad choice for IAF in the configuration that will be available in the next years. Also even if the EF would come, MKI might have the superior radar detection, while it were especially the western A2G weapons that would be important alternatives for IAF, next to the Russian and coming Indian once. MKI for sure is more capable in A2G than the EF, but so is the Mirage 2000, or the Mig 29 UPG, it simply is not a useful multi role fighter at the moment, or anytime soon.


Yes I agree with you


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## ejaz007

danger-zone said:


> Does every defence deal in India has to go through a Delay or controversies .. ?
> Grap on the jets and let the EGOS go.



It is not a matter of ego. The point is if Dasault is Relieved of her responsibilities as prime contractor and HAL manufactured planes do not perform as required than who is to be punished.

I think this is very important stage in the contract negotiations.


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## sancho

ejaz007 said:


> It is not a matter of ego. The point is if Dasault is Relieved of her responsibilities as prime contractor and HAL manufactured planes do not perform as required than who is to be punished.
> 
> I think this is very important stage in the contract negotiations.



That would be understandable, if HAL would be responsible for all delays and if Dassault would want another Indian manufacturer in the aero field to take over parts of the production instead (TATA or Mahindra for example). However, that is not the case, they would like to see in my earlier post:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/4347-mrca-news-discussions-556.html#post4119782


It looks much more like they want to divert more parts of the production to their JV partner Reliance (possibly even initiated by them), for the benefit of both of these privat companies. Reliance gets a bigger deal, while Dassault can get more control of what parts of the production they provide and therefor also about the ToT. 

Wrt to HAL, some crosspostings from IDF:



> *Some of the work packages for renowned international aerospace leaders include:*
> 
> Airbus A320 Forward Passenger Doors
> Boeing 757 Over Wing Exit Doors
> Boeing 777 Uplock Box Assembly
> Boeing 767 Bulk Cargo Doors
> Boeing 737 Freighter Conversion Kits
> Boeing F/A 18 Gun Bay Door
> Boeing P-8 I Weapon Doors & Tailcone
> Eurocopter Ecureuil composites
> Boeing -3D-Modelling / Digitisation of Drawings



Hindustan Aeronautics Limited - Exports - Aerostructures




> *HAL: Rolls Royce production facility opened in B'lore*
> 
> Friday, 15 March 2013
> 
> The Rs 135-crore International Aerospace Manufacturing (IAMPL) production facility, a joint venture between Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd and Rolls-Royce, was inaugurated in Bangalore on Friday.
> 
> The unit, to have an employee strength of about 100, incorporates the latest Rolls-Royce manufacturing techniques for making 130 different compressor parts. Incorporated in July 2010, IAMPL is a 50:50 joint venture company (JVC) of HAL and Rolls-Royce (the UK). The JVC is will have about 225 vendors initially...
> 
> ...*The state-of-the-art facility in Bangalore will produce components for the technologically advanced Trent family of civil aero engines, as well as for a number of marine and energy gas turbines, he said...*



HAL: Rolls Royce production facility opened in B'lore - Sakshi Post





> *Look beyond hawk, says BAE Chairman*
> 
> BAE Systems chairman Dick Olver on Tuesday said the business relationship between Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) and BAE should go beyond the advanced jet trainer (AJT) Hawk project.
> 
> Both the partners could think of working on new projects in 17 countries where BAE has its presence, Olver said during his visit to the HAL facility in the city...
> 
> ...A new business model such as Performance Based Logistics (PBL) could be an area of cooperation with HAL learning from BAE experiences, he said...



Look beyond hawk, says BAE Chairman - The New Indian Express




> *Eurocopter India retains the market lead in 2012, contributing to its parent companys strong annual performance*
> 
> ...Industrial co-operation remains a focal strategy for the company, with many local partnerships formed to boost the local aviation industry. *Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. has been the global supplier of composite chipsets for Eurocopters Ecureuil/Fennec helicopter family*; Pawan Hans Helicopters, who owns the largest Dauphin fleet in the world, operates the only Eurocopter-approved MRO (maintenance, repairs and overhaul) centre for Dauphin helicopters in India; and Mahindra & Mahindra has come on board as a commercial partner in the joint development of new market segments...



EADS Global Website - Eurocopter India retains the market lead in 2012, contributing to its parent company




> ...Reinforced by five decades of unparalleled presence and cooperation with Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd, Eurocopter is further developing sourcing activities through industrial partnership with HAL and Mahindra...



EADS Global Website - EADS in India



IF HAL would really be that bad as many believes, these big companies must be nuts to divert more and more production from their high quality companies in the west, to India right?


And wrt to the delays:



> *Some delay in delivery of SU-30 jets, says Jitendra Singh
> *
> ...The others include the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), the Hawk Advanced Jet Trainer, Intermediate Jet Trainer (IJT), Advance Light Helicopter (ALH), Light Combat Helicopter (LCH), Light Utility Helicopter (LUH), Minister of State for Defence Jitendra Singh told Lok Sabha in a written reply.
> 
> He said HAL has taken up indigenous production of SU-30 MKI fighter, LCA, Hawk, IJT, ALH, LCH, LUH and Dornier-228 for the defence forces, and while the Dornier-228 programme has been as per schedule but there have been some delays in deliveries in respect of production programmes of other aircraft.
> 
> *In the initial stages of the projects, delays were due to additional re-work on jigs in Hawk, late receipt of drawings from Russia for Su-30 MKI, integration issues of Integrated Architecture and Display System (IADS) with Shakti engine* and other new items in respect of ALH and design and development issues relating to IJT and LCA. The certification of IJT was also delayed due to an accident of Prototype-1 and failure of Stress Test Specimen, he said...



Some delay in delivery of SU-30 jets, says Jitendra Singh - Saanj News | Saanj News


Which shows that HAL was not responsible for all these problems and keep in mind that BAE was even punished, because their mistakes had caused delays in the HAL productionline. India is simply making sure, that the winner of MMRCA will not only do it's best to provide 18 fighters, but will remained focused to provide the full 126 fighters, as sooth and fast as possible. If they think HAL has to modernise certain things to achieve that, no problem, MoD / HAL will surely take such advice under consideration and but it's not a one sides game, since the foreign manufacturers have to do their best as well and must be willing to provide the necessary ToT and assistance!

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## arp2041

@sancho thanks for your above post.

I want to know if it makes sense to increase the order of 18 planes directly in fly-away condition to somewhere around 30s (or 2 squads atleast)??

This way, HAL will get the time to set-up assembly lines easily & IAF will get the much needed nos. quickly.


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## sancho

arp2041 said:


> @sancho thanks for your above post.
> 
> I want to know if it makes sense to increase the order of 18 planes directly in fly-away condition to somewhere around 30s (or 2 squads atleast)??
> 
> This way, HAL will get the time to set-up assembly lines easily & IAF will get the much needed nos. quickly.



Of course it would make sense, since it would counter our falling squad numbers and personally I would even get 3 squads directly from France, while increasing the overall order to 200. However, just like with the additional MKIs, there is a focus on producing as many as possible in India, even if that takes longer to induct them. If the order will not be increased, I don't see a chance for more than the first squadron.

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## sancho

Crossposting from the MP forum, credits to Olybrius:



> *The Rafale progresses in achieving commercial success*
> 
> Defesa.net, April 8
> 
> The Defesanet agency interviewed the 2 most important names of the Dassault Rafale Program respectively in France and Brazil, CEO Eric Trappier and the Director of Rafale International Brazil, Jean-Marc Merialdo. Here are the relevant points of these conversations, following the success of the presentation of the Dassault fighter at LIMA 2013 in Malaysia, where the Rafale is one of the favorites [...]. And also the last details of the proposal of the French manufacturer, short-listed in the F-X2 competition for public purchase of 36 aircraft for the Brazilian Air Force.
> 
> *A morning on the Seine*
> 
> In the cold morning of March 18, we are in the headquarters of Dassault Aviation, Saint Cloud, France, with President and CEO, Eric Trappier.
> Previously, we were greeted in the Pierre Clostermann room, in a french demonstration of sensitivity and elegance honoring us with accommodation in an area bearing the name of the Franco-Brazilian WWII ace, born in Curitiba, Rio de Janeiro, and formed by the pilots of the Aero Club Brazil.
> 
> Following the reception, [...] we had a presentation of the Virtual Reality Center with demonstration of digital mock-up, a model with enough precision and exactness to allow Dassault to simulate the flight characteristics of a new prototype, and even the life-cycle of their aircrafts. A visit to the Center of Immersion in Reality provided an interactive experience in the virtual cockpit of the Rafale and the simulation of the systems governing the interaction between man and machine - MMI. All this to begin to understand the concepts of engineering and design of the Group and its effects on the products designed here [...]. Eric Trappier has vibrant expression that inspires passion and belief in the capacity and quality of its aircraft.[...] When asked about the chances of winning the sales competition, given the current situation with reduced aircraft orders and budget constraints, Mr Trappier said it's underway.
> 
> He explains that the process of selling the military aircraft is at a key moment, especially if we take into account the ongoing transformations. "The Rafale incorporates today an operational AESA radar, an essential part of a first-line fighter. This is an example of maturity and consolidation of the capabilities of our product, adjusted to reality, and that keeps it in a state of the art, able to compete with modern technologies. Another aspect raised in defense of the Dassault fighter, is independence. "One advantage we can offer is our customers access to a platform which allows the incorporation of their own national developments ", he adds that in the case of Brazil, Dassault and the Government of François Hollande have officially assured all items will be supplied to the Brazilian government, which includes a 100% technology transfer, including source codes of the Rafale, and the "digital heart" of the computer programs that control the aircraft and its weapons.
> 
> To conclude our meeting, the CEO of the French manufacturer, competitor in the Brazilian F-X2, reaffirmed his confidence in what he calls " a ideological and political natural partnership," since "the socialist vision of France is similar to the one of the Brazilian Government" [lol] defining their point of view on the strategic advantages about this decision.
> 
> *A night in Copacabana*
> 
> A week later, in the tropical air of Rio de Janeiro, we had another fruitful meeting with the Director of Dassault International of Brazil. Jean-Marc Merialdo, which has added to its national Bleu-Blanc-Rouge ensign , the Green-Yellow tones, hence the ease with which he talks about Brazil. Once again, a demonstration of the sensitivity of the French group.
> 
> Our goal in this meeting was to deepen subjects like the vision of Dassault in Brazil and the details of the Rafale offer for the Air Force. Merialdo soon emphasized that the French offer was ruled by full compliance with the requirements of the RFP ( request for proposal )issued by the Brazilian Government, without quotes on any item, nor disputes concerning the subjection of permits. The Dassault offer has the full approval of the French Republic for all sensitive issues about technology transfer and knowledge. "The starting point of our offer was to provide the transfer of autonomy to Brazil in order to make improvements to the aircraft, integrate new capabilities and new weapons and incorporate the development of specific items appropriate for the Brazilian. Also early in the formatting of the proposal, the ability to do all the maintenance of the aircraft in the country itself, in view of what happened in the past with the Mirage, whose engines had to be sent to France. This was the first general line ", specifies the Director of Dassault.
> 
> "Overall, The second line was the imposition of technology transfer for the Brazilian industry and the Air Force itself , which means that the DCTA ( Department of Aerospace Science and Technology ), is one of the main recipients of this technology "adds Merialdo. When I ask him to further define the proposal, he states that "the heart of the offering is articulated around all the requests for modifications of the Rafale made by FAB. Around of 18 items, involving a range of specificities very Brazilian. " The implementation of this process has been designed concretely, he said, in three steps. At first, Brazilians technicians and engineers go to France to receive training that includes all physical and electronic documentation of the Rafale, which is part of the NAP - National Autonomy Package , to be able to intervene in their own Rafale.
> 
> Thereafter, still in France, French and Brazilians technicians and engineers will together start to work on the first changes to be implemented on the aircraft.
> In a second step, Brazilian and French will move to Brazil in their firms or entities, as in the case of DCTA, and will continue developing and adapting new capabilities to the aircraft in Brazil, under French supervision.
> In the third stage, then, the conduct of these modifications ultimately move into the hands of Brazilian technicians and engineers, with the French only in support, to complete the entire set of planned modifications. According to Merialdo, "this scheme is the heart of our practical offer for real transfer of technology and knowledge."
> 
> With regard to air-to-air weaponry, the MICA was offered, as well as was considered the request of FAB about the integration of all other missiles available in inventory or programs of the Brazilian AIr Force, like A-Darter. For air-ground missions , the AASM was offered and also the integration of any other possession of Brazil. Merialdo stressing that the French Ministry of Defense has approved the provision and joint development of new weapons to Brazil to be integrated into the Rafale. "Within the supply of Dassault was also offered the Damocles pod, and obviously was opened the possibility of integrating other Pods like the LITENING," he says, starting to highlight offset items below.
> 
> Today, we have 78 agreements already concluded with companies and universities. At Embraer, for example, will be made all flight tests of the production wing of the supersonic fighter, among other parts and systems. In a global number, the percentage of compensation offer from Dassault reaches 160%, explains Merialdo.
> "In terms of time, everything that is related to the development of new functions for Brazilian Rafale is planned to be delivered within 3 years from the T-zero", he says. Dassault Director reminds me of the official letter in which the French Government commits to buy at least 10 KC-390, for the Armed Forces of their country, when Brazil will choose the Rafale.
> 
> I ask a concrete illustration of international qualifications for businesses and professionals in Brazil, and Merialdo mentions the case of the Omnisys company, headquartered in São José dos Campos. "Omnisys was created by Brazilian engineers, working on various radars projects, in 2000 Thales acquired stake in Omnisys transferring the production of air surveillance radars for civil aviation. After producing this radar, they developped new features and performance for this product, becoming a Brazil's export to various countries like Singapore, China and France itself. Omnisys is expected to receive the task of developing new software for the Rafale's AESA radar and also to produce the active antenna for Brazilian aircrafts and for future buyers abroad. The forecast is that it can double its workforce with this increased load from the Rafale program, "he explains.
> 
> Merialdo complete explanations pointing out that Dassault's offer is more focused on technology transfer than the transfer of industrial load. "Our experience shows that this technology generates economic activity not only restricted to a specific area, but extending to other technology areas as soon absorbed by the country itself," advocating that to "teach the fish is worth more than just give to the fish, "he concludes.
> 
> Inquiring about the recent news regarding industrial issues in the process of buying 126 fighters for the Indian Air Force. First, Merialdo mentions that "the Rafale was the winner in a rigorous selection process that took into account approximately 650 items and measures, on 3 reviews in different environments, including mountains, where the Rafale demonstrated its capabilities and was chosen ahead the other competitors, among them the two aircrafts also competing in Brazil, "and adds that, even in items related to life-cycle cost , Dassault won the game, being rated the lowest. As for any delay in making the contract, Merialdo argues that by virtue of secrecy and confidentiality agreed, Dassault's policy is not to comment on details of negotiations with clients civilian or military, however, he says it is natural that adjustments and accommodations are made &#8203;&#8203;during the contractual process.
> 
> Dassault Director of International Brazil is confident about the sales success of his "omnirole" fighter- a term that is often used to describe the ability to play all different types of air mission in a single sortie - citing that besides India, France resumed negotiations with the United Arab Emirates, in a negotiation with significant values &#8203;&#8203;(60 Rafales - author's note). "In addition to these ongoing negotiations, 5 more countries (Qatar, Malaysia, Kuwait, Canada? - Author's note) showed interest in Rafale, through competitions or direct consultations," says Merialdo. "we consider we will achieve our goal with the Rafale, which is the same for all our airplanes, to sell abroad at least the same number of aircraft that were sold to the French Armed Forces," he concludes confidently
> 
> Having been in Istres , the Dassault base for flight tests, the week before, and having seen the satisfaction of engineers in the light of recent flights of nEUROn, i ask how Merialdo sees himself in the future, joint operations between the Rafale and combat drones. Was the French fighter able to integrate with these new technologies? "In this respect, it is worth noting that unlike other aircraft, the two-seater Rafale's not designed as a training aircraft and instruction, but as a combat aircraft with the differential ability to drive more complicated missions that require more attention by the crew. within employment opportunities, we also consider the ability of the Rafale in the future, to control a number of unmanned aircraft, like the nEUROn, noting however, that even if the UCAV flew , that is not yet a aircraft operating but a technology demonstrator, which will serve to define the new technologies for future combat aircraft ", responds Merialdo, citing the recent success of European cooperation for the construction of a stealth unmanned combat aircraft .
> 
> With this vision of the future and direct answers to the questions i raised, I said goodbye to Jean-Marc Merialdo, convinced that the proposal is clear and Dassault is in line with the requisition issued. And having flown in several operational scenarios, the Rafale has sufficient capacity to meet the challenges that a country of continental dimensions, being a regional power and becoming an actor of world-wide relevance, should be prepared to face now and in the coming years.



DefesaNet - rafale - Rafale avança na conquista de sucesso comercial


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## IND151

Responding to a report The Pioneer today that it had lined up a purchase of additional Su-30MKIs in the event that negotiations for 126 Rafales failed to result in a contract, the Indian Air Force has issued a statement to say:

*"Apropos a report in a certain section of the media indicating IAF will opt for Sukhoi-30 if Rafale deal falls flat as on 08 Apr 2013. The IAF strongly denies such report. The CNC (Contract negotiations committee) process for acquisition of 126 MMRCA is underway and there is no thought process for any procurement as a &#8216;back up&#8217; as reported."*

Livefist: Negotiations For Rafale On Track, No Back-up Plan: IAF

http://idrw.org/?p=20685


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## Sergi

*From other site*.



> India and French firm Dassault Aviation today decided to keep aside their sharp differences over contractual obligations and move ahead on the other aspects of the deal to procure 126 multirole combat aircraft for the IAF.
> 
> India and French firm Dassault Aviation today decided to keep aside their sharp differences over contractual obligations and move ahead on the other aspects of the deal to procure 126 multirole combat aircraft for the IAF.
> 
> During the contract negotiation committee meeting today, the two sides agreed to keep their discussions pending on the issue of having separate contracts and the role of HAL in the deal and move ahead on other things such as pricing and support services, sources told PTI here today.
> 
> Serious differences have cropped up in the contract negotiations between the Defence Ministry and the French firm, threatening to delay the country&#8217;s single largest dose military acquisition.
> 
> The French firm has already agreed with the Defence Ministry&#8217;s demand for having one contract with the four major firms involved in the deal, including MBDA, for the weapons package for the aircraft instead of four separate contracts, they said.
> 
> The firm is understood to have agreed to the Defence Ministry&#8217;s demand on the issue after the involvement of French government.


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## ejaz007

*News and Updates:*

*April 5/13: Negotiations.*

Dassault remain publicly confident that a deal will be done, but a reports that the deal will be delayed until July at least sheds some light on the key points beyond cost. Business Standard:

Some of the issues between the two sides include Dassaults demand for two separate contracts to be signed for the deal which includes one for the 18 aircraft to be built by the firm in France and the other for the 108 aircraft which are be integrated in India by the HAL. The Defence Ministry is not in agreement. [and] earlier also rejected Dassaults demand for making it the lead integrator in India. Dassault has also signed an MoU with the Reliance Industries Limited and wants to give a bigger role to it in the production phase in India is areas such as supply chain and project management.

Thats a very sensible approach if you have serious concerns about your local partners ability to deliver (q.v. Feb 7/13). Dassault has publicly said that HALs role is clearly understood, but then theyd have to say that. Their concerns seem very justified given HALs significant problems with the indigenous Tejas LCA fighter, and with timely completion of contracts involving BAEs Hawk trainers and Sukhois SU-30MKI fighters.

India&#8217;s M-MRCA Fighter Competition: Is the Deal In Trouble?


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## sancho



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## Koovie

ejaz007 said:


> *News and Updates:*
> 
> *April 5/13: Negotiations.*
> 
> Dassault remain publicly confident that a deal will be done, but a reports that the deal will be delayed until July at least sheds some light on the key points beyond cost. Business Standard:
> 
> &#8220;Some of the issues between the two sides include Dassault&#8217;s demand for two separate contracts to be signed for the deal which includes one for the 18 aircraft to be built by the firm in France and the other for the 108 aircraft which are be integrated in India by the HAL. The Defence Ministry is not in agreement&#8230;. [and] earlier also rejected Dassault&#8217;s demand for making it the lead integrator&#8230; in India&#8230;. Dassault has also signed an MoU with the Reliance Industries Limited and wants to give a bigger role to it in the production phase in India is areas such as supply chain and project management.&#8221;
> 
> 
> 
> That&#8217;s a very sensible approach if you have serious concerns about your local partner&#8217;s ability to deliver (q.v. Feb 7/13). Dassault has publicly said that HAL&#8217;s role is clearly understood, but then they&#8217;d have to say that. Their concerns seem very justified given HAL&#8217;s significant problems with the indigenous Tejas LCA fighter, and with timely completion of contracts involving BAE&#8217;s Hawk trainers and Sukhoi&#8217;s SU-30MKI fighters.
> 
> India&#8217;s M-MRCA Fighter Competition: Is the Deal In Trouble?




This news has been posted 6363635 times by now  

Official statement has been made, and negotiations are back on track.


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## sancho

> *Government hopeful of $15 billion Rafale fighter jet deal going through*
> 
> Earlier this month, in a rather unusual move, the Indian Air Force (IAF) strongly refuted a report that it was working on a Plan B should its negotiations fail to buy 126 combat jets from Dassault Aviation...
> 
> ...The statement was unusual for two reasons. Usually, it's the Defence Ministry that handles clarifications and responses to reports about acquisition of equipment and technology. Also, this is the first time that a press note has been officially issued about plans for procurement...
> 
> ...The press statement issued earlier this month, sources say, was triggered by concerns in the Defence Ministry and the Air Force that rumours were being spread by those with 'vested' interests or rival manufacturers to prevent the deal with Dassault Aviation from being signed...



Government hopeful of $15 billion Rafale fighter jet deal going through | NDTV.com

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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> Government hopeful of $15 billion Rafale fighter jet deal going through | NDTV.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...The press statement issued earlier this month, sources say, was triggered by concerns in the Defence Ministry and the Air Force that rumours were being *spread by those with 'vested' interests or rival manufacturers* to prevent the deal with Dassault Aviation from being signed...
> 
> Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/4347-mrca-news-discussions-557.html#ixzz2QFvnwylm
Click to expand...



Been saying this all along.




Dirty games are being played, have no doubt.

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## kbd-raaf

Abingdonboy said:


> Been saying this all along.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dirty games are being played, have no doubt.



With the kind of money that is at stake, wouldn't you too?


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## Abingdonboy

kbd-raaf said:


> With the kind of money that is at stake, wouldn't you too?



Naturally, all i am saying is that members here should be aware that these things are going on. When news is coming out on the MMRCA that contradicts what we already know we should take it with a pinch of salt, to put it lightly.


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## SpArK



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## Abingdonboy

SpArK said:


>



It's good that Dassualt will handing out contracts for the production of accessories and avionics and this won't be handeled purely by HAL.

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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> It's good that Dassualt will handing out contracts for the production of accessories and avionics and this won't be handeled purely by HAL.



BEL will take over the RBE 2 and possibly the LDP production too, Samtel HMS and FSO, DARE might be able to add some Indian EW sensors and I still expect some MFDs from HAL or Samtel.
My biggest wish however would be a joint NG missile development, based on Maitri SAM, since the French need to replace MICA IR soon too and we still have R73 as the base WVR missile for most fighters.

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## S-DUCT




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## sancho




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## Kloitra

sancho said:


>



Wrong thread mate!

Try this: http://www.defence.pk/forums/general-images-multimedia/138858-stupid-funny-all-over-world-ii.html


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## sancho

(Google translated)



> *Rafaut for French Hercules?*
> 
> Among the proposals to modernize the French C-130 Hercules, one of them is the installation of triple racks used in the Rafale, called Rafaut, as shown in the image above. Each rack takes up three 250kg bombs like Paveway or AASM. The image includes a cocoon of target designation ATLIS II.
> 
> The Rafaut be installed on racks where now are the external tanks of 10,000 liters. The proposal would transform the Hercules in a bomber, similar capacity with the Harvest Hawk KC-130 used by the USMC (Marine Corps U.S.) in Afghanistan.



Rafaut para os Hercules franceses? | Poder Aéreo - Informação e Discussão sobre Aviação Militar e Civil



Quiet interesting:


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## jha

^^^^ Interesting indeed. We should try something like this on An-32 and MTA... US wont let us tweak our C-130s like this.


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## sancho

jha said:


> ^^^^ Interesting indeed. We should try something like this on An-32 and MTA... US wont let us tweak our C-130s like this.



The proposal was for French C130 modernisations, that that wouldn't be an issue for ours either, especially since it's only a weapon pylon that will be added, not a whole new systems that needs to be integrated. MTA with a jet engine will be of limited use in CAS roles I guess, one reason I would like to see a turbo prob varient too.

However, I think this pylon could be interesting for Rafale and CAS roles as well. Currently it can carry 6 x LGBs/AASMs at max, with such a pylon the attack capability could be doubled, especially with new lighter weapons.

3 x HELINA ATGMs in the front Rafaut
3 x GBU 49 / AASM 250 in the rear one
total of 6 x ATGMs + 6 x bomb kits for every Rafale!!!


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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> The proposal was for French C130 modernisations, that that wouldn't be an issue for ours either, especially since it's only a weapon pylon that will be added, not a whole new systems that needs to be integrated. MTA with a jet engine will be of limited use in CAS roles I guess, one reason I would like to see a turbo prob varient too.
> 
> However, I think this pylon could be interesting for Rafale and CAS roles as well. Currently it can carry 6 x LGBs/AASMs at max, with such a pylon the attack capability could be doubled, especially with new lighter weapons.
> 
> 3 x HELINA ATGMs in the front Rafaut
> 3 x GBU 49 / AASM 250 in the rear one
> total of 6 x ATGMs + 6 x bomb kits for every Rafale!!!





sancho said:


> (Google translated)
> 
> 
> 
> Rafaut para os Hercules franceses? | Poder Aéreo - Informação e Discussão sobre Aviação Militar e Civil
> 
> 
> 
> Quiet interesting:


 @sancho would you then suggest the IAF go for addtioanl C-130s over and above the 12 C-130Js it will get? As these 12 are for purely Spec Ops support, or would you have some of these 12 converted into such a role? 



Additionally what utility would these machines have for India? I can see the utility of these for the likes of the French and US who are constantly getting involved in low-intensity conflicts around the globe however the CT ops the Indian armed forces are involved in within India do not employ such lethal airpower as a matter of course. For a conventional conflict against the traditional opponents India can expect to face(China and Pakistan) with high density SAM cover and BVR-equipped Fighter a/c a slow-moving turbo-prob transport a/c is going to be an easy kill. So what can India do with this weapon system?

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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> @sancho would you then suggest the IAF go for addtioanl C-130s over and above the 12 C-130Js it will get? As these 12 are for purely Spec Ops support, or would you have some of these 12 converted into such a role?



What for? You just remove the external fuel tanks and add the pylons, which means we can modify the current once, whenever needed and not all the time.



Abingdonboy said:


> For a conventional conflict against the traditional opponents India can expect to face(China and Pakistan) with high density SAM cover and BVR-equipped Fighter a/c a slow-moving turbo-prob transport a/c is going to be an easy kill.



And still IAF felt the need for arming the AN 32s right? The C130Js on the other hand has much better defence capabilities, has modern avionics and optronics for night and low level operations and would be much more useful. And this option would simply offer commonality to Rafale too, be it with the Rafaut pylon, the possibe weapons, or the LDP if needed, so a very simple upgrade for IAF.
However, of course using such aircrafts in CAS is only possible when you have air superiority, but it would have been highly useful in Kargil. But I still hope on a more capable A2G package for the P8Is, which would be much better for long distance of heavy strikes (GBU 24 bunker buster, SDB quadpacks, JSOW, SLAM-ER). 

And as I said, I think it would be a good addition to Rafale too!


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## RAMPAGE

i wanted to know that what will the single rafael cost iaf that it would will be receiving and what would be the total number of the order


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## BRICS

FFS, another MRCA thread. 

To answer your ?

This is India we are talking about here, seeing is believing, until then, it's all talk and only a paper plane. You may get tonnes of "in the future, we may, possibly, by 2020", etc, replies, but none of it is worth the bandwidth. Nothing has been signed, there is no official confirmation of numbers, no contracts, until then, it's useless and worthless chit chat.


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## indian_foxhound

yara google kar lo mmrca india.
Read this you will get over all info Indian MRCA competition - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## sancho

MAAZ ZAFAR said:


> i wanted to know that what will the single rafael cost iaf that it would will be receiving and what would be the total number of the order



No need to start a new thread, when we have a sticky MMRCA thread that you can go through. There is no reliable figure for the price yet, but the costs for French forces might give a hint:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/4347-mrca-news-discussions-555.html#post4085037


A minumum of 126, that possibly can go up to 200.

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## jha

Dont worry Rafale will not be procured. This whole saga will repeat again when the govt. changes next year.

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## perplexed

BRICS said:


> FFS, another MRCA thread.
> 
> To answer your ?
> 
> This is India we are talking about here, seeing is believing, until then, it's all talk and only a paper plane. You may get tonnes of "in the future, we may, possibly, by 2020", etc, replies, but none of it is worth the bandwidth. Nothing has been signed, there is no official confirmation of numbers, no contracts, until then, it's useless and worthless chit chat.



The amount of cr@p u uttered just now goes in complete reverse to what u said !

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## Skull and Bones

jha said:


> Dont worry Rafale will not be procured. This whole saga will repeat again when the govt. changes next year.



I support your views brother.

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## sancho

jha said:


> Dont worry Rafale will not be procured. This whole saga will repeat again when the govt. changes next year.



 Nice one!

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## sancho

> *...Prospects for Rafale*
> 
> In Paris, the amendment is seen mainly as a bid to win votes in parliamentary elections due in April or May 2014, as there has already been a steady move over time to promote buying from domestic sources, said a defense expert with knowledge of the Indian market.
> 
> Although the amendment will not affect talks over a planned buy of 126 Rafale fighters, the tender&#8217;s terms reflected a policy to boost local industry.
> 
> If India does sign an order with Dassault, only the first 18 units will be built in France, with the remainder assembled from kits and eventually built, from raw materials to components to full systems, in India.
> 
> In the first stage of negotiations, Dassault has been asked to hand over full documentation of Rafale production plans so Indian authorities can assess the work for local industry.
> 
> But Dassault is reluctant to hand over the papers, as India also insists on the French company acting as overall prime contractor providing guarantees for program performance. Dassault is concerned over the Indian partner&#8217;s ability to deliver the aircraft to standard, on time and on budget. That single corporate guarantee is seen as &#8220;deal-breaker,&#8221; the expert said.



India's New Rules Could Mean More Overseas Tie-ups | Defense News | defensenews.com

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## Invincible INDIAN

sancho said:


> Nice one!



Sancho, bit off-topic but I am expecting your in-sight on chinese incursion.

Thanks in advance!!!

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## sancho

Invincible INDIAN said:


> Sancho, bit off-topic but I am expecting your in-sight on chinese incursion.
> 
> Thanks in advance!!!



Too many trolls running crazy in these threads, that's why I keep myself out of them and just following the news about it.

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## jha

Skull and Bones said:


> I support your views brother.



Thank You for your support sir... It is our duty to educate the ignorant ones like @sancho , @SpArKy .... 



sancho said:


> Nice one!



hehehehe... Am waiting for die hard fans of Rafale to teach me its benefits and technological superiority ..


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## indian_foxhound

jha said:


> Thank You for your support sir... It is our duty to educate the ignorant ones like @sancho , @SpArKy ....
> 
> 
> 
> hehehehe... Am waiting for die hard fans of Rafale to teach me its benefits and technological superiority ..



No man i a die hard fan of this bird. But you all are right here...


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## Skull and Bones

jha said:


> Thank You for your support sir... It is our duty to educate the ignorant ones like @sancho , @SpArKy ....



I appreciate your support sir. As an responsible Indian, it's my duty to free Indians from delusions.

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## Kloitra

jha said:


> hehehehe... Am waiting for die hard fans of Rafale to teach me its benefits and technological superiority ..



It comes with free 10 years worth supply of champagne...


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## sancho

jha said:


> hehehehe... Am waiting for die hard fans of Rafale to teach me its benefits and technological superiority ..



No mate, we appreciate your strong will to fight for the poor and weak, that's why we never would bother you with facts, like we did with others in the past. So to make it simple, *it is available today*! That alone should show the main benefit, compared to your Gripen E/F. Case closed.


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## jha

Kloitra said:


> It comes with free 10 years worth supply of champagne...



Thats very tempting offer but still No to Rafale from my side. Sweden has offered a much better deal...


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## Kloitra

jha said:


> Thats very tempting offer but still No to Rafale from my side. Sweden has offered a much better deal...



You sure? The Swedish akvavit is still fermenting. Who knows how long it will take. And would not be as potent as the Champagne French are offering *now*!


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## sancho

jha said:


> Thats very tempting offer but still No to Rafale from my side. Sweden has offered a much better deal...



They would have been a great choice for an LCA co-development and we definitely missed a chance there (Saab & HAL for the design, Ericsson & LRDE for radar development, Volvo and GTRE for the engine), but their MMRCA offer was clearly one of the worst for our requirements.


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## Kloitra

sancho said:


> They would have been a great choice for an LCA co-development and we definitely missed a chance there (Saab & HAL for the design, Ericsson & LRDE for radar development, Volvo and GTRE for the engine), but their MMRCA offer was clearly one of the worst for our requirements.



It wasn't even a medium aircraft. It would have been only slightly better than being a LCA replacement.


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## sancho

Kloitra said:


> It wasn't even a medium aircraft. It would have been only slightly better than being a LCA replacement.



More or less, however the changes the Swedes made are very good and should have inspired ADA for LCA MK2 as well!
The problem for MMRCA were mainly performance with heavier loads, apparently the radar, but most importantly the availability, 3 years behind the RFP requirements (although the EF isn't better in this case imo).


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## sancho



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## selvan33

sancho said:


>



Which missile is that mate.METEOR.


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## Sergi

I just hope current border dispute put the MMRCA negotiations on fast track and India order the follow on jets right away form France.


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## Bang Galore

Sergi said:


> I just hope current border dispute put the MMRCA negotiations on fast track and India order the follow on jets right away form France.




I'm one of those who rather have the follow up order diverted elsewhere, the French have given us enough warnings about putting everything in their basket


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## sancho

selvan33 said:


> Which missile is that mate.METEOR.



MICA EM:

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## Sergi

Bang Galore said:


> I'm one of those who rather have the follow up order diverted elsewhere, the French have given us enough warnings about putting everything in their basket



What do you mean by elsewhere ??? Who's gona make Rafael if not French ??? Or you suggesting a new type of ac for follow on ??

I would not like to add follow on to HAL line. They will take ever to deliver them. On other hand French production line can produce 30+ ( I guess ) ac per year.


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## sancho

Sergi said:


> I just hope current border dispute put the MMRCA negotiations on fast track and India order the follow on jets right away form France.



Would be nice, but it doesn't seems that way, once because we still insists on the a single squadron from France, secondly because the current issues are from French side.



Bang Galore said:


> I'm one of those who rather have the follow up order diverted elsewhere, the French have given us enough warnings about putting everything in their basket



The aim is to reduce the types of fighters and since only the US contenders would be available now, that would be a bad idea. 
My choice would be, increase the order to 200, get the first 3 x squads directly from France and build an more upgraded version in India.

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## Sergi

sancho said:


> Would be nice, but it doesn't seems that way, once because we still insists on the a single squadron from France, secondly because the current issues are from French side.
> 
> 
> 
> The aim is to reduce the types of fighters and since only the US contenders would be available now, that would be a bad idea.
> My choice would be, increase the order to 200, get the first 3 x squads directly from France and build an more upgraded version in India.



How ??? HAL is supposed to produce current 108 ac for years and you want to give them more order 

There are few clauses which allow govt to take some decisions out of "Standard Procedure" like the way we get Israeli stuff during Kargil in fast track. I hope they use that clause now for operational needs and add more to off shelf order


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## sancho

Sergi said:


> How ??? HAL is supposed to produce current 108 ac for years and you want to give them more order



The 108 are expected to be done by 2021, 32 more doesn't take that long, but we could participate on more upgrades / customisations for such a version.

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## Bang Galore

sancho said:


> *The aim is to reduce the types of fighters *and since only the US contenders would be available now, that would be a bad idea.




I have never bought into this idea that we must necessarily reduce the number of fighters. That works well only if you are building your own. Relying on a foreign vendor as we do, there is no great logic that I see in permanently attaching ourselves to them & enabling them to be in a position to apply pressure during future negotiations. I'm aware that others think differently but I disagree.



Sergi said:


> What do you mean by elsewhere ??? Who's gona make Rafael if not French ??? Or you suggesting a new type of ac for follow on ??



That is correct. I'm suggesting a different aircraft. I don't see any reason to necessarily buy the same type when the negotiations thus far _(even before we have signed any deal)_ have been rough and gives enough inclination that we might end up with a M2k type of rip off later.


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## Sergi

Bang Galore said:


> That is correct. I'm suggesting a different aircraft. I don't see any reason to necessarily buy the same type when the negotiations thus far _(even before we have signed any deal)_ is rough and gives enough inclination that we might end up with a M2k type of rip off later.



Yes that's true if one party is desperate. But be assure French need is deal more than we do. It will help their business and future development of platform. 

In case if M2K it was our need they closed down their line decade ago. So rip off was obvious


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## Bang Galore

Sergi said:


> Yes that's true if one party is desperate. *But be assure French need is deal more than we do. It will help their business and future development of platform. *




That's what I thought too but their behaviour since then has given plenty of cause for alarm. In any case, once the deal goes through, your leverage lessens with every aircraft inducted.


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## sancho

Bang Galore said:


> I have never bought into this idea that we must necessarily *reduce the number of fighters*. That works well only if you are building your own. Relying on a foreign vendor as we do, there is no great logic that I see in permanently attaching ourselves to them & enabling them to be in a position to apply pressure during future negotiations. I'm aware that others think differently but I disagree.



Reducing "types" of fighters to reduce maintenance or logistics and ease operations, not reduce number of fighters. That has nothing to do with foreign or indigenous, but with replacing older single role fighters with multi role fighters.



Bang Galore said:


> That is correct. I'm suggesting a different aircraft. I don't see any reason to necessarily buy the same type when the negotiations thus far _(even before we have signed any deal)_ is rough and gives enough inclination that we might end up with a M2k type of rip off later.



How is M2K a rip off? And when you look at the negotiations, the current issue might be from Dassault, but most likely caused by Reliance! Otherwise there is no issue with the French offer, the offset negotiations with are going well as confirmed from Indian officials. I see it more as a disappointment, that such a big deal is only seen as an import/export and not as a chance to form a partnership and co-developments.


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## Sergi

Bang Galore said:


> That's what I thought too but their behaviour since then has given plenty of cause for alarm. In any case, once the deal goes through, your leverage lessens with every aircraft inducted.



French are trusted but dam good businessmen. They will bargain hard. A additional order will make them little generous too 

They can stop the support. If they do we have to find somebody else who can help us.... Russia. And that would be the last thing French would want  we might start copy paste and won't stop 

I think IAF will look for the M2K that are going to retire form French AF. That will be a cheap and good deal too


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## Bang Galore

sancho said:


> Reducing "types" of fighters to reduce maintenance or logistics and ease operations, not reduce number of fighters. That has nothing to do with foreign or indigenous, but with replacing older single role fighters with multi role fighters.



I'm aware of the reason but I simply don't believe that a country which imports in quantities like we do should get tied up with any single platform & should give ourselves the option of adding newer platforms in smaller_(but still decent numbers) _when we chose to. No need to get too tied down to any single platform making replacing it a nightmare, not to add the pressure that can be bought to bear. I believe any cost savings by reduction of platforms could quickly be neutralised if the seller plays rough on newer technology additions.





> How is M2K a rip off? And when you look at the negotiations, the current issue might be from Dassault, but most likely caused by Reliance! Otherewise there is no issue with the French offer, the offset negotiations with are going well as confirmed from Indian officials. I see it more as a disappointment, that such a big deal is only seen as an import/export and not as a chance to form a partnership and co-developments.



I'm aware of your stand on the M2k but I hold a different opinion in that we should have jettisoned it & gone in for the Gripen even if there was an increased cost to such a decision. Atleast we would have had a newer frame & further upgradations wouldn't have cost the earth. What next with the M2k? Further upgrades on aging frames ?

I don't give a damn whether the problem is caused by Reliance, that is Dassault's lookout not ours. My concern is with the willingness of Dassault to play rough so early in the game, even before a deal is struck. I want Dassault on their toes, not them keeping us on ours.


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## sancho

Bang Galore said:


> I'm aware of the reason but I simply don't believe that a country which imports in quantities like we do *should get tied up with any single platform & should give ourselves the option of adding newer platforms in smaller*_(but still decent numbers) _when we chose to. *No need to get too tied down to any single platform making replacing it a nightmare*, not to add the pressure that can be bought to bear. I believe any cost savings by reduction of platforms could quickly be neutralised if the seller plays rough on newer technology additions.



Buddy, that's EXACTLY the reason why we buy the Rafales! We already are importing huge numbers of Russian MKIs and to be not dependent only on them, their weapons and techs, an additional multi role fighter must have been bought. IAF prefered Mirage 2000-5s and now they get Rafales, for different reasons, but the outcome is the same and with the same advantages you mentioned. So we will have 2 different options, besides our own or co-developments and that#s more than enough alternatives.



Bang Galore said:


> I'm aware of your stand on the M2k but I hold a different opinion in that we should have jettisoned it & gone in for the Gripen even if there was an increased cost to such a decision. Atleast we would have had a newer frame & further upgradations wouldn't have cost the earth. What next with the M2k? Further upgrades on aging frames ?



Oh you mean the upgrade, Gripen could never have been an alternative, for obvious reasons. It would have taken IAF years, to train pilots, ground crews and set up the necessary logistics for a new fighter, from a new country. That's exactly why IAF prefered new Mirage over Gripens in the initial MRCA competition too. Now everybody is free to judge about the price, I also think it's too expensive, but not by the margin that is often speculated in comparison to the Mig 29 upgrade and mostly because we have the silly idea to do the upgrade at home, which alone made things costlier too.
This is the last upgrade for the M2K, just like for the Mig 29s, both will be replaced by FGFA in future.




Bang Galore said:


> I don't give a damn whether the problem is caused by Reliance, that is Dassault's lookout not ours. My concern is with the willingness of Dassault to play rough so early in the game, even before a deal is struck. I want Dassault on their toes, not them keeping us on ours.



That's how business works, at the end we are in need to buy, because we messed up our own developments, which caused the lack of fighters in the first place and as long as everybody knows we can't do similar things alone, they will take benefit of it. Do you think the Russians wasn't happy about the hold on AMCA? Because that means more FGFA orders are granted, which are needed for them to keep the costs for their version reasonable too.
The problem for me is, that most Indians see only the both extreems, either to buy foreign or to develop indigenously, while co-developments are the best midway for us! But sadly there is this attitude that anything that is not fully developed and produced in India, including every nut and bolt, isn't a good development.
So bottom line is, if we don't want others to be on the better side in negotiations, we must go for co-developments and partnerships, with as much control and participation from our side, in return fot the big market and orders we provide.


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## Bang Galore

sancho said:


> Buddy, that's EXACTLY the reason why we buy the Rafales! We already are importing huge numbers of Russian MKIs and to be not dependent only on them, their weapons and techs, an additional multi role fighter must have been bought. IAF prefered Mirage 2000-5s and now they get Rafales, for different reasons, but the outcome is the same and with the same advantages you mentioned. So we will have 2 different options, besides our own or co-developments and that#s more than enough alternatives.



I have no issue with diversifying, if you see I didn't support a Russian platform. However given how the French are behaving, I would much rather hedge my bets.





> Oh you mean the upgrade, Gripen could never have been an alternative, for obvious reasons. It would have taken IAF years, to train pilots, ground crews and set up the necessary logistics for a new fighter, from a new country. That's exactly why IAF prefered new Mirage over Gripens in the initial MRCA competition too. Now everybody is free to judge about the price, I also think it's too expensive, but not by the margin that is often speculated in comparison to the Mig 29 upgrade and mostly because we have the silly idea to do the upgrade at home, which alone made things costlier too.



Why not. The M2k will have to be phased out sometime like all other aircrafts & we will still need to invest in a new platform. I'm still not clear why Gripen could not have been opted for continuing to keep the M2k in the same state for the next few years.



> This is the last upgrade for the M2K, just like for the Mig 29s, both will be replaced by FGFA in future.



My point. When compared with the additional cost for Gripen as an alternative, the fact that the airframes are old & will really be neither viable nor upgradable_ (as opposed to the Gripen) I_ believe the additional cost that purchasing Gripen would have added would have been neutralised.





> That's how business works, at the end we are in need to buy, because we messed up our own developments, which caused the lack of fighters in the first place and as long as everybody knows we can't do similar things alone, they will take benefit of it. Do you think the Russians wasn't happy about the hold on AMCA? Because that means more FGFA orders are granted, which are needed for them to keep the costs for their version reasonable too.
> The problem for me is, that most Indians see only the both extreems, either to buy foreign or to develop indigenously, while co-developments are the best midway for us! But sadly there is this attitude that anything that is not fully developed and produced in India, including every nut and bolt, isn't a good development.
> So bottom line is, if we don't want others to be on the better side in negotiations, we must go for co-developments and partnerships, with as much control and participation from our side, in return fot the big market and orders we provide.



I know that is how business works which is why I suggested additional leverages. No point in giving additional orders unless the French see it our way.


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## sancho

Bang Galore said:


> Why not. The M2k will have to be phased out sometime like all other aircrafts & we will still need to invest in a new platform. I'm still not clear why Gripen could not have been opted for continuing to keep the M2k in the same state for the next few years.



As I said, because it's a new type of fighter, that needs new training, tactics, maintenance..., but the M2K was not to be replaced, which would have justified a new type, but to be upgraded to extend it's life in IAF, which is more than happy with the fighter. 
It's like you have have a car, which you love and that does perfectly what you want of it, is highly reliable and has no other issues. But instead of buying the next set of tires and giving it some new oil, or replace a few older parts, you consider to buy a new car, only because the parts are expensive. 

The fact is, the M2K is a great fighter for IAF and will be even better after the upgrades, it most likely have crucial roles within IAFs tactics, which can't be simply changed either and IF they would want a new type of fighter as a short term replacement, the most logical choice would be additional Mig 29SMTs, or Rafale, since the earlier is already available in IAF too and the latter is based on the tactics and logistics of the M2K, which makes a switch easier. The Gripen, EF or any of the US fighters would never be considered, since IAF would have start from zero again and that's what many forget while comparing the upgrade cost to the cost of a fighter, which btw is often only the flyaway cost, not the system cost!!!



Bang Galore said:


> No point in giving additional orders unless the French see it our way.



There are many points for that:

- reduced costs of the overal procurement, since higher units reduces the unit costs
- we can ask for more ToT/offsets or additional leverages as you wanted
- on the other side, buying a new type in low numbers means high unit costs and low leverages
- adding types of fighters increase overall maintenance and logistical costs
- adding types of fighters, that doesn't offer tactical advantages, make operations more complicated
...
...
...


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## Bang Galore

sancho said:


> As I said, because it's a new type of fighter, that needs new training, tactics, maintenance..., but the M2K was not to be replaced, which would have justified a new type, but to be upgraded to extend it's life in IAF, which is more than happy with the fighter.
> It's like you have have a car, which you love and that does perfectly what you want of it, is highly reliable and has no other issues. But instead of buying the next set of tires and giving it some new oil, or replace a few older parts, you consider to buy a new car, only because the parts are expensive.
> 
> The fact is, the M2K is a great fighter for IAF and will be even better after the upgrades, it most likely have crucial roles within IAFs tactics, which can't be simply changed either and IF they would want a new type of fighter as a short term replacement, the most logical choice would be additional Mig 29SMTs, or Rafale, since the earlier is already available in IAF too and the latter is based on the tactics and logistics of the M2K, which makes a switch easier. The Gripen, EF or any of the US fighters would never be considered, since IAF would have start from zero again and that's what many forget while comparing the upgrade cost to the cost of a fighter, which btw is often only the flyaway cost, not the system cost!!!



I'm sorry but I simply don't buy that argument. Everything is defined by cost V/s gain. No one is arguing that the IAF didn't like the M2k but that the upgrade costs were simply not worth it. To use your car analogy, if the spare parts costs only a little less than a new car, one which is still new to you, what decision would you take, especially when you know that the line is dead & there will be no further improvements on the model. My point is not about the quality of the upgrade, way too expensive _imo_ but about how Indian money is spent. The argument for buying Rafale's instead is quote simply illogical since we are talking different classes of fighters & since we are buying Rafale anyways . There is absolutely no need to fall into French dependency after the Russian one. The Mig would be out too for the same reasons. The system costs on an aging fighters is not going to be cheap when you are still throwing money that you will anyways have to. We will have to buy new aircrafts sometime, I see no reason why we didn't just keep the M2k's as they were & bought an aircraft that would remain in service much longer. The Upgradation costs of the M2k are simply ridiculous, no matter how you look at it unless they are deliberately being padded up for something not in the public domain.




> There are many points for that:
> 
> - reduced costs of the overal procurement, since higher units reduces the unit costs
> - we can ask for more ToT/offsets or additional leverages as you wanted
> - on the other side, buying a new type in low numbers means high unit costs and low leverages
> - adding types of fighters increase overall maintenance and logistical costs
> - adding types of fighters, that doesn't offer tactical advantages, make operations more complicated




That is known. However with the French attitude, I simply see no reason to put all our eggs in one basket. I believe that the way the French behaved, we will need to keep a very wary eye. I also am not a big fan of creating a French dependence unnecessarily. 120 odd aircraft is not a deal to scoff at. EF/SH should be an option that we must not take off the table & the French must know that it is a serious option.The additional costs of having multiple platforms are worth it in my opinion.


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## sancho

Bang Galore said:


> Everything is defined by cost V/s gain. No one is arguing that the IAF didn't like the M2k but that the upgrade costs were simply not worth it.



As i said, you compare the upgrade cost with the flyway cost of Gripen, but the system cost, including support for 30 years (which we paid for the M2Ks as well and would be wasted by replacing them early), setting up training and logistics is way higher.

System cost for S. African Gripen C/D - $1.8 billion for 28 fighters => $65 millions per unit
Offered System cost for Norwegean Gripen E/F - $3.1 billion for 48 fighters => $85 million per unit
Offered System cost for Brazilian Gripen E/F - $4.3 billion for 36 fighters => $119 million per unit
System cost for Swiss Gripen E/F - $3.3 billion for 22 fighters => $150 million per unit

Not to mention the completely new weapon package than needs to be procured and can't be shared with other fighters in the fleet. Mirage weapons instead, could be used when they will be phased out from Rafale.




Bang Galore said:


> The argument for buying Rafale's instead is quote simply illogical since we are talking different classes of fighters & since we are buying Rafale anyways .



First of all, Mirage 2000 and F16 are medium class fighters, unlike the Gripen C, which belongs to the light class as our Tejas.
Secondly, the fact that we by Rafale in MMRCA anyway is exactly the reaons why it would also be a choice to replace M2K, since it wouldn't add another type of fighter to the fleet and would be available even now in the latest version with AESA. So only advanced Rafales at lower cost, instead of less capable Gripen C and Rafales.




Bang Galore said:


> We will have to buy new aircrafts sometime



Which we already do, with LCA and Rafale now and FGFA as a replacement of the M2Ks in future, but adding more fighter types, especially more 4th gen once doesn't make sense.




Bang Galore said:


> I see no reason why we didn't just keep the M2k's as they were



Because it needs a life extention to remain in service for the next 10 to 15 years, the same what we did with the Mig 29 and what we do with the MKI from 2015 onwards. All these upgrades include complete overhaul of the airframe, apart from the modernisation of techs and weapons, that is neccessary to be useful in the next 10+ years. 



Bang Galore said:


> That is known. However with the French attitude, I simply see no reason to put all our eggs in one basket.



You might not like their attitude, but again we don't put all eggs in one basked, exactly because we buy French fighters to avoid overdependance on Russians. That's makes us less dependent and not more!


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## Sergi

@sancho : I do agree with @Bang Galore on the upgrade costs. We have been ripped off. Instead of upgrading M2Ks and Jags we should have ordered more Rafaels off the shelf. And continue to use M2K and Jags till their life span. And if you see the upgrade duration .... I don't think its worth it


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## sancho

Sergi said:


> @sancho : I do agree with @Bang Galore on the upgrade costs. We have been ripped off. Instead of upgrading M2Ks and Jags we should have ordered more Rafaels off the shelf. *And continue to use M2K and Jags till their life span.* And if you see the upgrade duration .... I don't think its worth it



Which makes 9 squadrons completely worthless!


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## Hulk

Sergi said:


> @sancho : I do agree with @Bang Galore on the upgrade costs. We have been ripped off. Instead of upgrading M2Ks and Jags we should have ordered more Rafaels off the shelf. And continue to use M2K and Jags till their life span. And if you see the upgrade duration .... I don't think its worth it



I do not think IAF does not knew that basic thing, there might be reason for doing the same.


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## neehar

@sancho does the upgrade of mki from 2015 as u mentioned also includes asea and al-41?


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## Sergi

indianrabbit said:


> I do not think IAF does not knew that basic thing, there might be reason for doing the same.



I don't know about IAF but I certainly don't know that's why trying to find out. Yu are more than welcome to elaborate


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## Bang Galore

sancho said:


> As i said, you compare the upgrade cost with the flyway cost of Gripen, but the system cost, including support for 30 years (which we paid for the M2Ks as well and would be wasted by replacing them early), setting up training and logistics is way higher.
> 
> System cost for S. African Gripen C/D - $1.8 billion for 28 fighters => $65 millions per unit
> Offered System cost for Norwegean Gripen E/F - $3.1 billion for 48 fighters => $85 million per unit
> Offered System cost for Brazilian Gripen E/F - $4.3 billion for 36 fighters => $119 million per unit
> System cost for Swiss Gripen E/F - $3.3 billion for 22 fighters => $150 million per unit



I'm still looking at the utility of the M2k beyond the next 10-15 years. The airframes are really old & the line simply does not exist. We would be buying more gripens_ (if we went that route)_ and the cost would be much lesser than what you quoted. Even if I accept the costs will be more than it would to upgrade the M2k, you do realise that these are completely new aircraft we are talking about.



> Not to mention the completely new weapon package than needs to be procured and can't be shared with other fighters in the fleet. Mirage weapons instead, could be used when they will be phased out from Rafale.



That is completely illogical. The M2k upgrade was agreed to even before the Rafale was short listed, there can be no connection drawn arbitrarily.



> First of all, Mirage 2000 and F16 are medium class fighters, unlike the Gripen C, which belongs to the light class as our Tejas.
> Secondly, the fact that we by Rafale in MMRCA anyway is exactly the reaons why it would also be a choice to replace M2K, since it wouldn't add another type of fighter to the fleet and would be available even now in the latest version with AESA. So only advanced Rafales at lower cost, instead of less capable Gripen C and Rafales.




As I have said, we need not have stopped with just small quantities of Gripen. We could have continued augmenting the fleet as the Mig 21 were being phased out. Also, unlike you, I have already made it clear that the oft quoted argument against the number of platforms makes no sense to me when we continue to import our requirement. See no logic in giving any particular country/vendor unnecessary leverage and constant adding of new technologies won't hurt. Will also keep the vendor on the toes if there are more contracts to be won. I'm deeply sceptical of the supposed cost savings that will happen with he consolidation of the platforms regardless of whether the vendor is the French, the other Europeans or indeed the Americans. I believe as the French have shown, the ripping off can continue & being dependent on them for a large portion of the fleet might be counter productive.



> Which we already do, with LCA and Rafale now and FGFA as a replacement of the M2Ks in future, but adding more fighter types, especially more 4th gen once doesn't make sense.



It does when you understand my argument against being dependent on the French. I can already see the costs of the arms to be procured burning a big hole in the Rafale purchase, not to mention using mainly twin engined aircrafts & still hoping to keep some control over the budget.



> Because it needs a life extention to remain in service for the next 10 to 15 years, the same what we did with the Mig 29 and what we do with the MKI from 2015 onwards. All these upgrades include complete overhaul of the airframe, apart from the modernisation of techs and weapons, that is neccessary to be useful in the next 10+ years.



It doesn't matter. Everything must be analysed wrt cost involved. We do have the Mig 21's still flying, The M2k could have survived for the next few years in the same condition & be phased out as necessary.




> You might not like their attitude, but again we don't put all eggs in one basked, exactly because we buy French fighters to avoid overdependance on Russians. That's makes us less dependent and not more!



That argument completely misconstrues my point. I warned against being dependent on the French, the Russians were not the ones I was suggesting turning to. The French behaviour makes it amply clear that India will have a rough ride & giving them more leverage by having more aircraft defies logic.


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## Sergi

sancho said:


> Which makes 9 squadrons completely worthless!



But we are using them right now as they are. Aren't we ??? And upgrade isn't going to happen overnight. I am pretty sure it will run even after we induct first Sqdn of Rafale

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## Bang Galore

sancho said:


> Which makes 9 squadrons completely worthless!




No more than with the Mig 21's presently serving.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## rockstarIN

@sancho

As im completely against the upgrade of M2k with high costs, simply does not make sense at all. I would rather prefer a less cost combo of Elta 2032_derby ungradation of M2k. 

And regarding Mig-29 to Mig-29 SMT, too less cost than M2k up gradation.


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## Kloitra

Sergi said:


> But we are using them right now as they are. Aren't we ??? And upgrade isn't going to happen overnight. I am pretty sure it will run even after we induct first Sqdn of Rafale



Even if upgrades run parallel to mrca induction, we get capable planes within 10 years. If we dont upgrade, we get capable planes after 128 rafael induction. with already dwindling squad no, that doesn,t bodes well.

IAF has stated that the upgrades would help them make more out of less numbers.


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## Sergi

Kloitra said:


> Even if upgrades run parallel to mrca induction, we get capable planes within 10 years. If we dont upgrade, we get capable planes after 128 rafael induction. with already dwindling squad no, that doesn,t bodes well.
> 
> IAF has stated that the upgrades would help them make more out of less numbers.



There was always an option to buy off-shelf. 
I am not saying M2K is a bad plane or something. I am saying that the cost of upgrade and the duration of upgrade just don't make sence. French production lines should be capable of delivering 30 ac per year. And additional order would have given us additional leverage in deal. 
 @sancho : you are right on Gripen that it would have cost more in training and infa. How about adding more Rafael instead ???


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## Kloitra

Sergi said:


> There was always an option to buy off-shelf.
> I am not saying M2K is a bad plane or something. I am saying that the cost of upgrade and the duration of upgrade just don't make sence. French production lines should be capable of delivering 30 ac per year. And additional order would have given us additional leverage in deal.
> 
> @sancho : you are right on Gripen that it would have cost more in training and infa. How about adding more Rafael instead ???



50 extra Rafale would cost much more, both to procure and to maintain. You cannot replace a single engine light fighter with a twin engine medium one. Besides, off the shelf is out of question. HAL/govt insisted to have in house upgrade. A big fraction of cost is to build infra for that. They could have just let French do the upgrade and saved a lot, but would have missed the opportunity to gain experience.


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## Sergi

Kloitra said:


> 50 extra Rafale would cost much more, both to procure and to maintain. You cannot replace a single engine light fighter with a twin engine medium one. Besides, off the shelf is out of question. HAL/govt insisted to have in house upgrade. A big fraction of cost is to build infra for that. They could have just let French do the upgrade and saved a lot, but would have missed the opportunity to gain experience.



Rafael would have cost more to produce - yes. Not to maintain we already planning to have 126 of them. 

You can't replace a single engine light fighter with twin engine medium one - says who ??? Do you know which planes heavy MKIs are replacing ??? Or coming Rafaels will be replacing ???

Off shelf is out if question I know. Bt that's the problem here.

Opportunity to gain experience of what ??? Upgrading 3rd gen plane to 4th ??? I though HAL was more interested in building 5th gen ( sarcasm ) calling it apportunity is wrong. Say a waist of time , money and manpower. Direct upgrade would have been more fast and some relevance


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## Kloitra

Sergi said:


> Rafael would have cost more to produce - yes. Not to maintain we already planning to have 126 of them.



You mean a single engine and twin engine, light and medium aircraft cost equal to maintain? Start with fuel, than maintenance of that extra engine, and so on.. 



> You can't replace a single engine light fighter with twin engine medium one - says who ??? Do you know which planes heavy MKIs are replacing ??? Or coming Rafaels will be replacing ???



MKI and Rafale are multirole aircraft. They are replacing air-sup and strike aircraft at the same time. It means they can replace a mig 21 and mig 27 (both single role) simultaneously. Mirage is already a multirole plateform. One Mki or one Rafale is cost effective when replacing two short life single role maintenance heavy aircraft. You reduce the burden of shrinking fleet size, reduce infra, reduce groundsmen, service people etc. Would Rafale be equally effective replacing a cheaper, lighter multirole aircraft?

And those planes they are replacing are outdated. They have no place 10 years from now. Same is not true for upgraded mirage.



> Off shelf is out if question I know. Bt that's the problem here.
> 
> Opportunity to gain experience of what ??? Upgrading 3rd gen plane to 4th ??? I though HAL was more interested in building 5th gen ( sarcasm ) calling it apportunity is wrong. Say a waist of time , money and manpower. Direct upgrade would have been more fast and some relevance



Building a plane from scratch and upgrading a platform, irrelevant of its generation, are different experience.


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## Sergi

Kloitra said:


> You mean a single engine and twin engine, light and medium aircraft cost equal to maintain? Start with fuel, than maintenance of that extra engine, and so on..


 does it should like that ???  maintaining miraj+jag = maintaining 1 Rafael or even less. 



Kloitra said:


> MKI and Rafale are multirole aircraft. They are replacing air-sup and strike aircraft at the same time. It means they would replace a mig 21 and mig 27 (single role) both simultaneously. Mirage is already a multirole plateform. One Mki or one Rafale is cost effective when replacing two short life single role maintenance heavy aircraft. You reduce the burden of shrinking fleet size, reduce infra, reduce groundsmen, service people etc. Would Rafale equally effective replacing a cheaper, lighter multirole aircraft?


I know that. If I am not wrong it was your question. Not mine. 
You want to compare Rafael with M2K your choice. Costs are important but not over operational capabilities. If you missed the news French forces are retiring miraj from service and inducting Rafaels. Guess why ???


Kloitra said:


> And those planes they are replacing are outdated. They have no place 10 years from now. Same is not true for upgraded mirage.
> Building a plane from scratch and upgrading a platform, irrelevant of its generation, are different experience.


Humm tell me upgraded M2K will be more than 4th gen and I will accept it. I will be needing some reputable member or source.


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## Kloitra

Sergi said:


> does it should like that ???  maintaining miraj+jag = maintaining 1 Rafael or even less.



Definitely not. But maintaining/flying a single mirage is cheaper than a Rafale.



> I know that. If I am not wrong it was your question. Not mine.
> You want to compare Rafael with M2K your choice. Costs are important but not over operational capabilities. If you missed the news French forces are retiring miraj from service and inducting Rafaels. Guess why ???



Nope, you said instead of M2K upgrade, we should go for more Rafale. My point is currently Rafale is replacing less capable single role fighters. No point in it replacing a cheaper, multirole fighter which, after upgrades, continue to satisfy criterion of IAF. Why French are retiring Mirage, well probably to keep Dasault afloat when they can only keep either of the plane. I dont know. I know that Mirage satisfy IAF, and after upgrades would continue to do so for its lifetime.



> Humm tell me upgraded M2K will be more than 4th gen and I will accept it. I will be needing some reputable member or source.



Its a fourth gen. Quite capable at that. IAF is satisfied. That is enough.


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## Nishan_101

sancho said:


>



I am sure that not only a single plane will win. Rather it will both Rafael, EF-2000 and Grippen. I know like last time all of you will be laughing and DRDO's chief had a visit to Grippen in the past as well....???
Also heard that IAF is interested in MiG-35 and Su-35s

Which is quite amazing to see


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## Abingdonboy

Nishan_101 said:


> I am sure that not only a single plane will win. Rather it will both Rafael, EF-2000 and Grippen. I know like last time all of you will be laughing and DRDO's chief had a visit to Grippen in the past as well....???
> Also heard that IAF is interested in MiG-35 and Su-35s
> 
> Which is quite amazing to see


Come on Nishan, at a time when the IAF is trying to cut down on the diversity of its fighter fleet by replacing 2-3 types of solo-role fighter with 1 multi-role fighter, why would they then induct 3-5 different platforms in limited numbers? It makes no sense, the IAF held the MMRCA competition to evaluate the best medium multi-role platform for them and they achieved their objective- the Rafale won. Why would the IAF now induct the losers of this competition? The Rafale beat all of them hands down. 



Wet the Su-35, nah- the IAF isn't interested- their SUPER SU-30MKIs will be on par or superior to the Su-35.

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## Storm Force

its gone VERY QUIET HUSH HUSH ON the RAFALE PURCHASE lately.

especially since i infamously suggested IAF "MAY CANCEL" this programme citing concerns of TOT and cost but also FRENCH insistance on providing no guranteess on 108 HAL aassembled fighters. 

HAS THERE BEEN ANY PROGRESS SINCE 

I WOUKD HATE TO SEE MY FEARS come true !!!!!!!!!!!!!1


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## black_jack

Storm Force said:


> its gone VERY QUIET HUSH HUSH ON the RAFALE PURCHASE lately.
> 
> especially since i infamously suggested IAF "MAY CANCEL" this programme citing concerns of TOT and cost but also FRENCH insistance on providing no guranteess on 108 HAL aassembled fighters.
> 
> HAS THERE BEEN ANY PROGRESS SINCE
> 
> I WOUKD HATE TO SEE MY FEARS come true !!!!!!!!!!!!!1



No problem, government will switch to EF2000


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## Storm Force

black jack

i was asking any POSITIVE NEWS on RAFALE 

" god could the french really blow this deal too " ?????????//


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## Sergi

Storm Force said:


> its gone VERY QUIET HUSH HUSH ON the RAFALE PURCHASE lately.
> 
> especially since i infamously suggested IAF "MAY CANCEL" this programme citing concerns of TOT and cost but also FRENCH insistance on providing no guranteess on 108 HAL aassembled fighters.
> 
> HAS THERE BEEN ANY PROGRESS SINCE
> 
> I WOUKD HATE TO SEE MY FEARS come true !!!!!!!!!!!!!1



"HATE" ??? Are you sure boddy you chose the right word  I though you hate Rafael 

How lately ??? How about Page 557 & Post#8343

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## Abingdonboy

Sergi said:


> "HATE" ??? Are you sure boddy you chose the right word  I though you hate Rafael
> 
> How lately ??? How about Page 557 & Post#8343



Don't waste your time buddy, I don't know what's going on with @Storm Force on the MMRCA issue, he seems to have lost his mind over the issue:

From a few days ago:



Storm Force said:


> Other than 125 mig21 bison there's no more fishbeds. Ie 6 sqds....
> There are another 6 sdqs of mig27 with 120 planes.
> All of these wil or should be phased out by 2018...
> 8 sqd of mki and 6 of mirage 2000/mig29. 280 planesth
> This leaves 120 jaguar in 6 more sqns .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If the mig21/27 are phased within five years then iaf need to induct 12 or 13 sqds in just 5 years mirgae
> I see 7 more flankers sqds joining in 5 years and two lca tejas mk1 by 2018...
> *Finally by 2018 one sqd of rafale f3 or additional mirages 2000 second hand*




http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian...-2-front-war-has-only-34-a-8.html#post4226947



Apparently nothing less than daily updates over these CONFIDENTIAL negotiations from the CNC/MoD/IAF will do to pacify his delusions!!!

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## BRICS

*NEARLY 8,500 REPLIES, ALMOST 1,000,000 VIEWS AND STILL IT'S ONLY A PAPER PLANE.*

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## Abingdonboy

BRICS said:


> *NEARLY 8,500 REPLIES, ALMOST 1,000,000 VIEWS AND STILL IT'S ONLY A PAPER PLANE.*



Actually the Rafale flies just fine:

















Joking aside, yes this procurement has taken longer than most would've wanted but a procurement of this scale and complexity is almost unprecedented and thus there is no set timetable and delays and issues are bound to crop up- that's just how it is.

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## Sergi

Abingdonboy said:


> Don't waste your time buddy, I don't know what's going on with @Storm Force on the MMRCA issue, he seems to have lost his mind over the issue:
> !



Don't be so rude  after all we all agree to disagree 
See like this whom will we poke after the deal is signed


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## Abingdonboy

Sergi said:


> Don't be so rude  after all we all agree to disagree
> See like this whom will we poke after the deal is signed



Lol, It's just that that thread he started based on nothing really got under my skin- I can't tell you why, it just did!

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## sancho

indianrabbit said:


> I do not think IAF does not knew that basic thing, there might be reason for doing the same.



Of course there is, but not everbody keeps in mind that the M2K most likely is one of our nuklear strike options and that it most likely will get further upgrades in that direction as well (specialised avionics and stuff). But apart from that, the sheer ammount of ignoring of facts about this upgrade deal in comparison to other things is amazing.



neehar said:


> @sancho does the upgrade of mki from 2015 as u mentioned also includes asea and al-41?



AESA yes, but it's not clear if Zhuk or BARS, engine upgrades were never mentioned yet, but he recent procurement of high numbers of AL 31 hints in a clear direction.



Sergi said:


> But we are using them right now as they are. Aren't we ??? And upgrade isn't going to happen overnight. I am pretty sure it will run even after we induct first Sqdn of Rafale...
> 
> ...@sancho : you are right on Gripen that it would have cost more in training and infa. How about adding more Rafael instead ???



Are we? How do you expect M2K to fight JF 17B1 or J10A today without BVR capability? Without RCS reductions? Without HMS and modern WVR missiles? So even today they lack behind and to cover that, for the use of another 10 to 15 years, they need life extention and modernisations.
The Jags as I often say are next to useless, with every multi role fighter we are adding to the fleet, since they all will be prefered in the strike from now onwards, which is why, it would have been wiser, to limit the Darin 3 upgrade to basics only and try to sell off the latest Jags to Afghanistan or similar countries. 

Rafales instead Mirage is possible, since we procure it in MMRCA anyway, but the costs are several times higher than the Mirage upgrade and why would we replace it with a 4.5 gen fighter, when the aim is to replace it with a 5th gen fighter in future (FGFA)?

Most of you guys simply say the upgrade is costly, by looking only at the figure, but without seeing the whole picture of what IAF has in mind and what the other costs really would be. The $900 millions for Migs doesn't include the engine, or avionics costs, which means at the end it's more like $2.1 billion for Mirage and more than $1.5 billions for the Migs.
Doesn't look that much different anymore does it?


rockstar said:


> @sancho
> 
> I would rather prefer a less cost combo of Elta 2032_derby ungradation of M2k.



Not possible, once because Israel can't provide the overhaul and modernisation of the airframe, nor can Derby be used at any other hardpoints that the wet stations, which means, it would be limited to a single fuel tank and just 2 derbys.

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## sancho

Bang Galore said:


> I'm still looking at the utility of the M2k beyond the next 10-15 years...
> 
> ...you do realise that these are completely new aircraft we are talking about.



As I said twice before, there is no utility for the M2K beyond the 10 &#8211; 15 years, this is the last upgrade, with the only aim to extend the life of the airframe till they can be replaced by FGFA and with modernised features, to keep them capable for another 10 &#8211; 15 years, not more.
And yes, I know that they are new, but again, we already decided for 5 th gen fighters as replacement, not 4 th gen once, like the Gripen C.




Bang Galore said:


> That is completely illogical. The M2k upgrade was agreed to even before the Rafale was short listed, there can be no connection drawn arbitrarily.



The M2K upgrade didn't included weapons, they were evaluated and procured later. MICA for example was procured last jan and, SPICE 2000 was just confirmed during Aero India, there is still an LDP competition, for M2K and Rafale going on. 




Bang Galore said:


> As I have said, we need not have stopped with just small quantities of Gripen. We could have continued augmenting the fleet as the Mig 21 were being phased out.



Which is what LCA and MMRCA is meant to do, again no need for Gripens.




Bang Galore said:


> I can already see the costs of the arms to be procured burning a big hole in the Rafale purchase, not to mention using mainly twin engined aircrafts & still hoping to keep some control over the budget.




The problem here is only, that the Gripen use mainly expensive European weapons too! Some of them should be even more costly then French once, since they are exported only in very small numbers

Gripen E / Rafale

WVR: IRIS-T / MICA
BVR: Meteor / Meteor
LGB: Paveway / Paveway
PGM: NA yet / AASM
Anti ship: RBS 15 / Exocet
Cruise missile: Taurus / Scalp

The only cost advantage here is the IRIS-T, since it's a dedicated SR missile only, while MICA is a SR and MR missile, which makes it more capable and logically more costly. 




Bang Galore said:


> The M2k could have survived for the next few years in the same condition & be phased out as necessary.



That's your personal claim, but that don't need to be what IAF thinks and if you think about it more unbiased, you have to ask yourself, how M2K should defend itself, or Indian skys withoth BVR capability against JF 17 or J10? In this regard it actually even less capable than our old BISONS and you want it to remain in service for more than a decade without basics of modern air warefar. Can you honestly say that's a rational argument?


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## Bang Galore

sancho said:


> That's your personal claim, but that don't need to be what IAF thinks and if you think about it more unbiased, you have to ask yourself, how M2K should defend itself, or Indian skys withoth BVR capability against JF 17 or J10? In this regard it actually even less capable than our old BISONS and you want it to remain in service for more than a decade without basics of modern air warefar. Can you honestly say that's a rational argument?




the rest of your posts I'm leaving as it is because the ground has been pretty much covered there but to this point, you are again misconstruing my argument. If we did go in for Gripens _(remember the IAF wasn't making a choice of upgrade v/s new aircrafts)_, the fate of the M2k would pretty much be inconsequential. We would hardly be using the M2k as a primary fighter then with ot's replacement doing the job. It simply does not matter. If you were looking at this thing without your biases, you would see that the argument I make is not without merit. You are welcome to disagree but to suggest that a ridiculously expensive upgrade was the only option is to be a bit disingenuous. Same with the follow on order for Rafale. The french have been dictating terms on what weapons can be used on the M2k as they will probably on Rafale. You seriously believe that we should be tied down like that? The Gripen would simply allow us to integrate a far more diverse number of weapons. As for the IAF knowing better, you do know that a section was opposed to the M2k deal on the price as well as the limited period that it will be around after an upgrade.

http://www.****************/indian-brass-split-over-french-mirage-upgrade-deal-35083/

Israel has offered to upgrade IAF Mirage-2000 aircraft at low prices ~ ASIAN DEFENCE


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## sancho

Bang Galore said:


> We would hardly be using the M2k as a primary fighter then with ot's replacement doing the job.



Wrong, because it takes years till IAF has set up the same base of tactics and operational confidence in the Gripen, that they have gained in the M2Ks over the last decades. Which means, in the mean time, they can't use 3 squads of their prime fighters and must divert other fighters (most likely more important MKIs) to take over the M2K roles. And to make it worse, after 10 to 15 years, these Gripens would be would need expensive upgrades, again to be at least useful as an interceptor for the future, but if we replace the M2Ks with FGFA, we would get a whole different kind of capability in the fleet and not only as much as LCA will offer. 

Mate, you are not looking at the whole picture and are trying to construct a necessity for the Gripen which simply is not there and by ignoring all the facts!

1) That Gripen was never a preferred choice for IAF, not in MRCA, not in MMRCA, not as a 2nd hand procurement and for sure not as a replacement of the Mirage!
2) That it's infact more costly than the Mirage upgrade and not less!
3) That it means operational limitations for IAF, since it has no experience with the fighter or techs!
4) That it's technologically less capable than the Rafale that we could have at the same time and a whole generation behind the FGFA, that IAF want to replace the M2K with!
5) That we already have a fighter, that is an independent choice, that is cost-effective and that is aimed to replace the Migs, THE LCA!!!
6) That the French fighters makes us less dependent from Russia, while LCA is meant to make us less dependent from foreign procurements in general!




Bang Galore said:


> The french have been dictating terms on what weapons can be used on the M2k as they will probably on Rafale.



Which is another claim, but completely baseless and very simple to counter (which I actually even did even in my last post, but that shows that you didn't really read it)! 

If that would be true, the French wouldn't have accepted the integration of US LGBs, with Israeli help during Kargil war and without any considerations, or political issues afterwards. 

If that would be true, we wouldn't integrate an Israeli PGM today to the upgraded Mirage, but take the French AASM instead, that we have rejected. 

If that would be true, we wouldn't have a competition, to choose between an Israeli and a French targeting pod FOR Mirage 2000 AND the Rafale.

All this shows how far away you are from the facts, because of your personal like for the Gripen and the dislike for the French and shouldn't an opinion be based on facts and not personal issues?

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## Bang Galore

sancho said:


> 2) That it's infact more costly than the Mirage upgrade and not less!




The fact that you are comparing an upgrade with a purchase of a new fighter shows the ridiculousness of your argument.





> Which is another claim, but completely baseless and very simple to counter (which I actually even did even in my last post, but that shows that you didn't really read it)!
> 
> If that would be true, the French wouldn't have accepted the integration of US LGBs, with Israeli help during Kargil war and without any considerations, or political issues afterwards.
> 
> If that would be true, we wouldn't integrate an Israeli PGM today to the upgraded Mirage, but take the French AASM instead, that we have rejected.
> 
> If that would be true, we wouldn't have a competition, to choose between an Israeli and a French targeting pod FOR Mirage 2000 AND the Rafale.



Thou protest too much. I see you completely left out the part where a section of the IAF said something similar to my argument about the prohibitive cost.




> *All this shows how far away you are from the facts, because of your personal like for the Gripen and the dislike for the French and shouldn't an opinion be based on facts and not personal issues?*



I try & stick with the argument and almost never go after the person but considering you seem to be suggesting that I have personal issue_(whatever that means, in favour of the Gripen(??))_, I will point out this. I could care less if the Gripen was selected or the F18 or the EF. If you went back to the MMRCA discussion pages, you might see that while I initially supported the SH & the Gripen in a two way split, I welcome the IAF's decision to finally go with Rafale and defended that position with the critics at that time. However my support is based on the circumstances & issues that crop up. I'm really surprised that you made a charge of _"personal interest"_ when you are the one person on this form singularly ill-equipped to make that charge considering how you almost seem to put the French & Dassault's interests above anything else. Not everyone is a mirror image of you & you would be well advised to be more circumspect making that charge. You are welcome to disagree, your posts have been knowledgeable even if I think you seem beholden to one side. The way you jumped on me for making that charge on Dassault & the French left me wondering whether I hit a nerve. You are the only one making it personal. Feel free to disagree. My opinion is mine & mine alone & I will readily & happily concede that I am wrong if proven so. Nor do I suggest I speak for the IAF or for any _"interested" _parties.There is no need to run so scared of dissenting opinions that you feel the need to go ballistic.

_My last post on this subject for now. Not interested mud wrestling._


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## Kloitra

sancho said:


> 4) That it's technologically less capable than the Rafale that we could have at the same time and *a whole generation behind the FGFA, that IAF want to replace the M2K with!*



That's the point I was trying to make to @Sergi . No point in replacing a fourth gen with another. Right now we are just phasing out 3rd gen. 4rth gen are too stay for a while.


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## Sergi

Kloitra said:


> That's the point I was trying to make to @Sergi . No point in replacing a fourth gen with another. Right now we are just phasing out 3rd gen. 4rth gen are too stay for a while.



Uhh* I think he is talking about replacing M2K with Gripen (a whole new type ) and saying Gripen is less capable than Rafae*l where I was saying instead of upgrading M2K just to add more Rafaels. Two different things !!! BTW he is saying Gripen whole gen behind FGFA where he see Rafael as 4.5

Give him (@sancho) a choice to add more off shelf Rafaels instead of upgrading M2K he is with me 
I personally think instead of upgrading 50 M2K we should have gone for 20/25 more Rafaels. 

But surely IAF has something different in their mind that we don't know yet

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## Kloitra

Sergi said:


> Uhh* I think he is talking about replacing M2K with Gripen (a whole new type ) and saying Gripen is less capable than Rafae*l where I was saying instead of upgrading M2K just to add more Rafaels. Two different things !!! BTW he is saying Gripen whole gen behind FGFA where he see Rafael as 4.5
> 
> Give him (@sancho) a choice to add more off shelf Rafaels instead of upgrading M2K he is with me
> I personally think instead of upgrading 50 M2K we should have gone for 20/25 more Rafaels.
> 
> But surely IAF has something different in their mind that we don't know yet



I didn't read any of his post suggesting that, I guess I missed them. But I think it is not so efficient financially/potentially to replace a 4 gen with even a 4.5 gen. It is not so urgent need, given that in western theatre or even in north for now the threat is from 4/4.5. Even without upgrades, m2k have 10/15 years of service left. By that time we would get FGFA and probably AMCA.

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## Sergi

Kloitra said:


> I didn't read any of his post suggesting that, I guess I missed them. But I think it is not so efficient financially/potentially to replace a 4 gen with even a 4.5 gen. It is not so urgent need, given that in western theatre or even in north for now the threat is from 4/4.5. Even without upgrades, m2k have 10/15 years of service left. By that time we would get FGFA and probably AMCA.



*Well friend we clearly don't know IAF's logic. But lets say they know better than us and knows what's best for them as they are the guies who would be using those jets*. 

_My points where clearly economics based_. 
- we are upgrading M2K. In no world the life of that air frame would be more than NEW air frame. 
- The upgrade will make M2K a 4th gen aircraft no doubt but for comparatively lower life span and duration of those upgrade will decrease it further. 
- We are already buying Rafaels. Adding more will lower per unit cost and we get more TOT.
- 20 rafaels will be more than capable of the things that 50 miraj can do and will have double life span and with the advantage of half generation lead plus all the possibilities of future upgrades. 
- and operationally when MKIs and Rafaels in fleet I find it hardto believe that M2K will be given deep stick role

In economics perspective , I would personally would have liked to use M2K as it is till the life span and add more LCA MK-2s after 2017. I think @sancho will agree on all of above expect LCA

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## Storm Force

Sergi


> In economics perspective , I would personally would have liked to use M2K as it is till the life span and add more LCA MK-2s after 2017. I think @sancho will agree on all of above expect LCA
> 
> Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/4347-mrca-news-discussions-563.html#ixzz2SVahsxwQ



I would be shocked & very pleased/happy if LCA MK2 achieves IOC by 2017. Judging by the prgress or complete lack of the NAVAL LCA and we all know howlong LCA MK 1 is taking we will not see LCA MK2 until 2020.

I am fairly certain the 2018 timeframe will slip 

ASK ME HOW 

because for a decade NOW 99% of every indian militrary induction has slipped AND I KNOW MK2 TEJAS will slip


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## Sergi

Storm Force said:


> Sergi
> 
> I would be shocked & very pleased/happy if LCA MK2 achieves IOC by 2017. Judging by the prgress or complete lack of the NAVAL LCA and we all know howlong LCA MK 1 is taking we will not see LCA MK2 until 2020.
> 
> I am fairly certain the 2018 timeframe will slip
> 
> ASK ME HOW
> 
> because for a decade NOW 99% of every indian militrary induction has slipped AND I KNOW MK2 TEJAS will slip


Well if you add one thing to your theory you will get different results. MK-2s come faster than MK-1s like Arjun MK-2

And on LCA we already screwup everything. There is nothing left to screw it again. So I think MK-2 will follow timeline this time. Lets see if prototype fly in 2015 or not.

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## Abingdonboy

Storm Force said:


> because for a decade NOW 99% of every indian militrary induction has slipped AND I KNOW MK2 TEJAS will slip



This is far from true, in fact it is more like 10-20% but Hess being the big-ticket headline-grabbing projects means that their delays have been covered to death. 


In India, the way it is right now, bad news sells good news goes unreported. Indians love sensationalism and scandal.

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## sancho

Bang Galore said:


> The fact that you are comparing an upgrade with a purchase of a new fighter shows the ridiculousness of your argument.



That actually speaks against you, because you brought that up as an argument to replace the Mirage, not me! I only should you the fact, that this option is far more costly than you and many others belives, that only took the flyaway cost into comparison and forgot the system costs that we already paid for the full lifecycle of the Mirage, that would be wasted.



Bang Galore said:


> I see you completely left out the part where a section of the IAF said something similar to my argument about the prohibitive cost.



Which is not important, since the top level (former air Chief Naik, current Air Chief Browne) are fully in support of it and as I explained, the "speculated" Israeli option isn't one, since they can only provide other radar and weapons and can't do the overhaul. 




Bang Galore said:


> I try & stick with the argument and almost never go after the person but considering you seem to be suggesting that I have personal issue_(whatever that means, in favour of the Gripen(??))_



The problem is:



> we should have jettisoned it & gone in for the Gripen even...
> 
> ...My concern is with the willingness of Dassault to play rough so early in the game, even before a deal is struck. I want Dassault on their toes, not them keeping us on ours.



Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/4347-mrca-news-discussions-560.html#post4236304


That is limiting you point of view and why you simply go over so many important points that needs to be considered.
As I said earlier, I also think the cost and the effort for the upgrade is too high, but mainly because of the way we will do it, via ToT to HAL and in India. That alone makes it more costly than it need to be, it delays the re-induction and for no reason further increase the workload of HAL, that already is above it's limit. So we could have done this much better, but there should be no doubt that the upgrade is necessary!




Bang Galore said:


> I'm really surprised that you made a charge of _"personal interest"_



See above, it is based on what you have said, not my personal view or because I wanted to attack you!
But the more I have shown you the facts, the more you ran into claims, based only on your personal view of the French now. But only because you don't like their attitude now (which I don't like either, but I still see the whole picture including the Reliance factor), it doesn't mean that we had to dump the Mirage upgrade and that with a solution that wouldn't have a single benefit for us.


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## sancho

Sergi said:


> BTW he is saying Gripen whole gen behind FGFA where he see Rafael as 4.5



Exactly, because only the Gripen C/D would have been available now and they are technically only at a 4th gen level with LCA MK1, Mirage 2000-5, Mig 29SMT, while the FGFA that is meant to replace the Mirage is a 5th gen fighter.




Sergi said:


> _My points where clearly economics based_...
> 
> In economics perspective , I would personally would have liked to use M2K as it is till the life span and add more LCA MK-2s after 2017. I think @sancho will agree on all of above expect LCA



Not sure if that's true:

- M2K upgrade for 10 to 15 years, later replacement with FGA => around $44 millions each Mirage
- M2K early replacment with Rafale => loss of parts of the system costs we paid for the full lifetime, around $120 millions system cost for each Rafale


Even if we add the unit cost of each FGFA to the M2K upgrade cost, we would only a bit higher than for the Rafale cost, while IAF obviously have a clear operational advantage with the FGFA. So extending the life of the Mirage is definitely not wrong and also not that expensive for IAF.
Replacing it with LCA MK2 is of course possible, by capability and I would love to see more LCA orders in future. My only concern is, that we might see an end of the current LCA order only by 2022 or later, so any additonal order would come in an area, where the LCA offers limited future potential compared to Rafale, FGFA, or even compared to some of our likely opponents in that time. That's why I have doubts on further orders by IAF, since the threat perception must decide which fighter will be procured, not our personal preference or pride reasons!



Abingdonboy said:


> In India, the way it is right now, bad news sells good news goes unreported. Indians love sensationalism and scandal.



To be fair though, that's the same all over the world, because in times of more bloggers and less real journalists, all that matters is how fast you can come up with any selling news, not how good the content of the news is!

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## sancho

> *India Still to Finalize Terms for Jet Deal With Dassault*
> 
> India is still to finalize the terms for a potential purchase of 126 fighter jets from Dassault Aviation more than a year after the French defense contractor was chosen for the deal estimated to be worth more than $10 billion.
> 
> Commercial discussions are continuing with Dassault because of which a specific time frame cannot be provided for the delivery of the Rafale combat planes, Defense Minister A.K. Antony told a lawmaker in the lower house of Parliament Monday...



India Still to Finalize Terms for Jet Deal With Dassault - WSJ.com

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## Contrarian

The Chinese episode would now lead to some haste in MMRCA as well the MSC along with the infra buildup in the relevant areas.

Positive impact.


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## SpArK

> *Commercial discussions* are continuing with Dassault because of which a specific time frame cannot be provided for the delivery of the Rafale combat planes, Defense Minister A.K. Antony told a lawmaker in the lower house of Parliament Monday...



Every day for 5 minutes they go meet Dassault guys and talk about the commercials in French TV channels and come back.


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## Kloitra

@Sergi, I think me and @sancho are on different page, but we do agree on upgrades and replacement with FGFA!


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## sancho

Contrarian said:


> The Chinese episode would now lead to some haste in MMRCA as well the MSC along with the infra buildup in the relevant areas.
> 
> Positive impact.



Depends, our side will remain on HAL being the prime contractor and Dassault being responsible, since that was written in the RFP. On the other side, this might increase the chances of more Rafales and more directly from France which can be inducted earlier.

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## Abingdonboy



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## SR-91

> sancho said:
> 
> 
> 
> Depends, our side will remain on HAL being the prime contractor and Dassault being responsible, since that was written in the RFP. On the other side, this might increase the chances of more Rafales and more directly from France which can be inducted earlier.
Click to expand...


From your mouth to BABU's ears!!!


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## IND151

https://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&r...tAl5xMYRovmFtXCQ62CV4PQ&bvm=bv.45960087,d.bmk

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## IND151

sancho said:


> Of course there is, but not everbody keeps in mind that the M2K most likely is one of our nuklear strike options and that it most likely will get further upgrades in that direction as well (specialised avionics and stuff). But apart from that, the sheer ammount of ignoring of facts about this upgrade deal in comparison to other things is amazing.
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by neehar
> @sancho *does the upgrade of mki from 2015 as u mentioned also includes asea and al-41?*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AESA yes, but it's not clear if Zhuk or BARS, engine upgrades were never mentioned yet, *but the recent procurement of high numbers of AL 31 hints in a clear direction.
> *
> 
> 
> Are we? How do you expect M2K to fight JF 17B1 or J10A today without BVR capability? Without RCS reductions? Without HMS and modern WVR missiles? So even today they lack behind and to cover that, for the use of another 10 to 15 years, they need life extention and modernisations.
> The Jags as I often say are next to useless, with every multi role fighter we are adding to the fleet, since they all will be prefered in the strike from now onwards, which is why, it would have been wiser, to limit the Darin 3 upgrade to basics only and try to sell off the latest Jags to Afghanistan or similar countries.
> 
> Rafales instead Mirage is possible, since we procure it in MMRCA anyway, but the costs are several times higher than the Mirage upgrade and why would we replace it with a 4.5 gen fighter, when the aim is to replace it with a 5th gen fighter in future (FGFA)?
> 
> Most of you guys simply say the upgrade is costly, by looking only at the figure, but without seeing the whole picture of what IAF has in mind and what the other costs really would be. The $900 millions for Migs doesn't include the engine, or avionics costs, which means at the end it's more like $2.1 billion for Mirage and more than $1.5 billions for the Migs.
> Doesn't look that much different anymore does it?
> 
> 
> Not possible, once because Israel can't provide the overhaul and modernisation of the airframe, nor can Derby be used at any other hardpoints that the wet stations, which means, it would be limited to a single fuel tank and just 2 derbys.
Click to expand...


Is this new batch of AL-31 will come with 15,000 kg thrust?

We definitely need more powerful engines for Super MKI as AESA demand more power

And with increased thrust Super MKI will have Thrust to Weight Ratio of 1.2 against 1 for MKI(as thrust will go up from 25,00 kg to 30,000 kg)

On Topic> hope deal gets signed soon


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## sancho

IND151 said:


> https://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&r...tAl5xMYRovmFtXCQ62CV4PQ&bvm=bv.45960087,d.bmk









When Dassault can work with an Indian team on the Mirage upgrade, which then will help HAL to do it in India alone, why can't they do the same with Rafale? Why aren't they concerned about the standarts of HAL for the Mirage upgrade? 

Could it be that parts of the Rafale that HAL will produce, are meant not only for India, but also for further Rafale exports? Would Dassault then be happier with Reliance, where they can decide how the production will be done? 




IND151 said:


> Is this new batch of AL-31 will come with 15,000 kg thrust?



No informations are out yet, not even if the Super 30 upgrade will have an upgrade or not.



> *Impossible to set time frame for MMRCA deal: Antony*
> 
> Union Defence Minister A K Antony on Monday said it was not possible to set a time frame for signing the much-awaited deal for the Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) with French company Dassault Aviation...
> 
> ...Given the complexity of the proposal, no definite time frame can be fixed at this stage (for signing the deal), Antony said in a written reply in Parliament...



Impossible to set time frame for MMRCA deal: Antony - The New Indian Express


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## Johny D

(Reuters) - India's plan to buy 126 fighter-jets from Dassault Aviation (AVMD.PA) *could be delayed as the two sides struggle to reach an agreement over the role of state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), *two sources familiar with the matter said.

India picked the Dassault-made Rafale jet for exclusive negotiations in January 2012 after a hotly contested bidding war with rival manufacturers, but it is still to finalize the $15 billion deal, one of the world's largest defense import orders.

*Under the initial terms of the proposed deal, Dassault was expected to provide 18 fighters in "fly-away" condition, and then let HAL manufacture the rest in India.*

*However, Dassault now wants two separate contracts to be signed - one for the ready-made ones, and another for the rest to be built by HAL, but India opposes that proposal*, an Indian Defense Ministry official told Reuters.

*"Dassault says HAL does not have the capacity and capability to assemble the aircraft," *said the official, who declined to be identified because he is not authorized to speak to the media.

"HAL is our main public sector partner. And if needed, capacity and capabilities can be improved. But the proposal for two contracts is not agreeable to the government of India," he said.

The source said the *dispute would likely delay finalizing the deal but not derail it. *Indian Defense Ministry officials had earlier expressed the hope that the deal could be finalized by July.

"This kind of deal is complex. This issue is slowing down negotiations. The disagreement is on who guarantees the quality of the planes produced in India, HAL or Dassault," another source close to the matter said.

NEGOTIATIONS STALLED?

Dassault has declined to comment on the substance of the negotiations but has said it expects the deal to be signed before the end of 2013.

*Dassault has agreed to supply manufacturing kits and equipment to HAL on time, but will not play a further role in manufacturing after that,* the Indian Express newspaper said on Friday.

Negotiations between the company and the Indian government have completely stopped over the disagreement, the paper reported, without identifying its sources.

A Defense Ministry spokesman did not have any immediate comment.

According to a preliminary agreement between Dassault and the government, HAL will make 108 Rafale jets in India, while parts will be delivered by Dassault and its partners, Thales (TCFP.PA), Europe's largest defense electronics group, and aerospace group Safran (SAF.PA).

India, the world's biggest arms importer, plans to spend about $100 billion over the next 10 years upgrading its mostly Soviet-era military hardware.

However, a recent push by the Defense Ministry to increase local manufacturing of military equipment has renewed concerns about whether Indian companies have the advanced technology and trained staff to build sophisticated Defense equipment.

*Dassault has previously expressed doubts about the technological capability of HAL to manufacture the Rafale. A HAL program to manufacture advanced jet trainers is running years behind schedule.*

Rafale defeated the Eurofighter Typhoon to win the Indian government deal. The Typhoon is developed by a consortium of BAE Systems (BAES.L), Finmeccanica (SIFI.MI) and EADS (EAD.PA).

India's $15 billion Rafale deal faces delays: sources | Reuters


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## sancho

It's funny to see the media panicing, when all official sides say, the negotiations are going well.


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## Abingdonboy



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## Abingdonboy



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## Abingdonboy




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## Abingdonboy



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## Liquidmetal

Abingdonboy said:


>



Stunning aircraft.


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## Storm Force

OH MY GOD WHAT BEAUTIFUL SIGHT


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## Abingdonboy



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## Abingdonboy



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## sancho

*Crossposting from the MP forum, big report about Rafale in the Air International magazin (credits to Olybrius):*








*F3R upgrade:*
http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/9755/rfa2.jpg
http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/5486/f3r1.jpg


*Future upgrade potential:*
http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/6618/lfa1.jpg
http://img560.imageshack.us/img560/8150/lfa2.jpg


*M88 engine:*
http://img838.imageshack.us/img838/6019/m88v.jpg

*
Aesa & FSO:*
http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/8985/asra3.jpg


*Spectra:*
http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/2393/asra5.jpg
http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/1888/asra6.jpg


*Sensor fusion:*
http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/1264/asra8.jpg


*HMS:*
http://img839.imageshack.us/img839/9130/hmsn.jpg
http://img560.imageshack.us/img560/8150/lfa2.jpg

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## DANGER-ZONE

Damn Mirage with Rafale Nose looks so damn cool. Why don't India try to upgrade Mirage to this standard.


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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> *Crossposting from the MP forum, big report about Rafale in the Air International magazin (credits to Olybrius):*
> 
> 
> 
> *F3R upgrade:*
> http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/9755/rfa2.jpg
> http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/5486/f3r1.jpg


 @sancho have you any idea which standard the IAF's Rafales will be? I've heard F-3+ but will it be close to the F-3R in specs- no point in getting a machine that is already behind the times when it is inducted.


sancho said:


> *HMS:*
> http://img839.imageshack.us/img839/9130/hmsn.jpg
> http://img560.imageshack.us/img560/8150/lfa2.jpg


And isn't it weird that the French haven't asked for the HMDS to be fitted on their Rafales? I guess the ground work is there so the IAF will have no issues in getting HMDS on their birds.




DANGER-ZONE said:


> Damn Mirage with Rafale Nose looks so damn cool. Why don't India try to upgrade Mirage to this standard.


The Mirage was only used as a test bed- this is not an operational model and this was not part of any upgrade the IAF wanted or Dsssualt offered. The IAF wanted to keep the deal as cheap as possible as this was only to keep the M2Ks around for another 10-15 years.

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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> @sancho have you any idea which standard the IAF's Rafales will be? I've heard F-3+ but will it be close to the F-3R in specs- no point in getting a machine that is already behind the times when it is inducted.



The F3R is an upgrade mainly based on the requirements of French forces, based on their operational experience. Only a few things will be important for IAF, like Meteor, or additional radar modes for example.



Abingdonboy said:


> And isn't it weird that the French haven't asked for the HMDS to be fitted on their Rafales? I guess the ground work is there so the IAF will have no issues in getting HMDS on their birds.



They have asked for it, but the air force and navy sees the pros and cons differently and other upgrades were more important, which is why the funding for the Sagem HMS that was chosen, was not provided. Thales however tested Topsight prototypes on the Rafale earlier:

http://www.ausairpower.net/NATO/sextant-topsight.jpg

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## Abingdonboy

Courtesy Olybrius


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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> The F3R is an upgrade mainly based on the requirements of French forces, based on their operational experience. Only a few things will be important for IAF, like Meteor, or additional radar modes for example.


 @sancho I agree that the F-3R is very much "French-specific" ie increasing interoberabilty with NATO and the like but there are a few bits of kit the IAF would surely be interested in and given the timeline for induction is ~2018 it makes sense for HAL's Rafales to be F-3R standard, no? I'm sure, like you said, the IAF would be interested in a few elements like the new buddy-buddy AAR pods, full integration with Meteor, improvements in the SPECTRA system etc etc 


What do you think? Will it happen or will all IAF Rafales be F3+ (.4,.5 whatever)?


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## Abingdonboy



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## Abingdonboy



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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> @sancho I agree that the F-3R is very much "French-specific" ie increasing interoberabilty with NATO and the like but there are a few bits of kit the IAF would surely be interested in and given the timeline for induction is ~2018 it makes sense for HAL's Rafales to be F-3R standard, no? I'm sure, like you said, the IAF would be interested in a few elements like the new buddy-buddy AAR pods, full integration with Meteor, improvements in the SPECTRA system etc etc
> 
> 
> What do you think? Will it happen or will all IAF Rafales be F3+ (.4,.5 whatever)?





No ours will be F3+, because the requirement was to be available in 2015, some of the F3R upgrades will be added later too, but most of it is not interesting for India. WRT MMRCA, the possible customisations we might fund have more importance than the F3R upgrade. I expect the Litening G4 pod, HMS, IRST, possibly SPICE 2000 or even Pilum by then. I hope for CFTs, early integration of Meteor, HELINA or SPIKE NLOS, Sudarshan LGBs and ideally an Indian counterpart to SDB.

@Abingdonboy

Btw, do you live in London and will you watch the game tonight? Support Borussia Dortmund!

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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> No ours will be F3+, because the requirement was to be available in 2015, some of the F3R upgrades will be added later too, but most of it is not interesting for India. WRT MMRCA, the possible customisations we might fund have more importance than the F3R upgrade. I expect the Litening G4 pod, HMS, IRST, possibly SPICE 2000 or even Pilum by then. I hope for CFTs, early integration of Meteor, HELINA or SPIKE NLOS, Sudarshan LGBs and ideally an Indian counterpart to SDB.
> 
> @Abingdonboy
> 
> Btw, do you live in London and will you watch the game tonight? Support Borussia Dortmund!



Do you not think there is the possibility for the first few batches built in France and India to be F3+ but those built after 2018/19 to be India specific F-3Rs ie some of the F-3R's capabilities mated with the IAF's birds? Do you really think CFTs will be available to put onto the IAF's Rafales? I'd have thought these would come with the F4 or later future road-map upgrades. Also when do you think the full details of the IAF's Rafale package will be announced? When the intial contract is signed or over the course of the next 3-4 years and beyond?

@sancho- not a football watcher/supporter really! And I live in Berkshire (close to London).


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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> Do you not think there is the possibility for the first few batches built in France and India to be F3+ but those built after 2018/19 to be India specific F-3Rs ie some of the F-3R's capabilities mated with the IAF's birds? Do you really think CFTs will be available to put onto the IAF's Rafales? I'd have thought these would come with the F4 or later future road-map upgrades. Also when do you think the full details of the IAF's Rafale package will be announced? When the intial contract is signed or over the course of the next 3-4 years and beyond?
> 
> @sancho- not a football watcher/supporter really! And I live in Berkshire (close to London).



Apart from Meteor, most of the F3R might come with the first general upgrade if needed at all, as I said, most of it is French specific and no use for us.
CFT prototypes were developed and tested, but the final development is still not done and requires funding. But it's possible for the licence produced once and maybe could be even produced in India in general. IMO it would be an asset in air combats against PLAAF and therefor very useful. 

Mh sad, but I suggest to at least go to london today and enjoy the atmosphere, especially the Dortmund supporters are known to celebrate very much and if we win, we will turn London upside down. 
I'm out now, getting ready for the game and trying to calm down a bit, extreemly nervous right now, but in a good way!

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## Storm Force

IS THIS DEAL ANY CLOSER TO BEING SIGNED ANYBODY

I CANT WAIT TIO SEE THE PAKISTANI RESPONSES 

MY GOD WHAT A STUNNING FIGHTER


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## Abingdonboy

Storm Force said:


> IS THIS DEAL ANY CLOSER TO BEING SIGNED ANYBODY
> 
> I CANT WAIT TIO SEE THE PAKISTANI RESPONSES
> 
> MY GOD WHAT A STUNNING FIGHTER


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## Bratva

Storm Force said:


> IS THIS DEAL ANY CLOSER TO BEING SIGNED ANYBODY
> 
> I CANT WAIT TIO SEE THE PAKISTANI RESPONSES
> 
> MY GOD WHAT A STUNNING FIGHTER



Pakistani's are pissing their pants Storm Force


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## Storm Force

Beautiful scenario in Indian colours


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## DANGER-ZONE

Abingdonboy said:


>



Avoiding further delays, if the deal is signed by Aug - Sep 2013 then the first batch of Rafale will probably land in India by 2015.
I hope you guys complete all 126 aircrafts by the Silver Jubilee of MMRCA.


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## sancho

DANGER-ZONE said:


> Avoiding further delays, if the deal is signed by Aug - Sep 2013 then the first batch of Rafale will probably land in India by 2015.



Which would be EXACTLY according to the RFP timeframe! 


Some nice pics:

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## Abingdonboy

Thanks to @arp2041 for making me aware of this channel.


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## sancho

> *Eurofighter Future Exports Hinge On Advanced Radar Deal*
> 
> The four nation-backed Eurofighter Typhoon jet will not receive any more export orders unless Britain, Germany, Italy and Spain formally agree to fund the development of an advanced radar, an executive at one of the jet&#8217;s manufacturers said...
> 
> ...*The four nations agreed in principle to support the development of the new technology in 2011 but signing a formal contract has been delayed* by upcoming German elections and the Eurofighter consortium is pressing for a deal to be signed in the first half of next year...



Eurofighter Future Exports Hinge On Advanced Radar


When the 2nd option making itself bad, it's just increases the chances for Rafale to remain the clear winner in the MMRCA. Even if there would be issues during the negotiations, it's more likely that India would not by a new fighter, rather than taking a more expensive but less capable fighter like the EF.


----------



## soumya1989

*France sees first Rafale jet deliveries to India by 2016*

Paris: France expects to make its first deliveries of Rafale warplanes to India by 2016 or 2017, French Defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian was quoted as saying by financial daily Les Echos.

The paper said France's draft defence budget was based on an assumption that the first deliveries of the Dassault Aviation-built fighters would start in 2016.

Le Drian is set to go to New Delhi for talks about the contract, the paper said. India is negotiating to acquire 126 of the multi-role combat planes.

Indian sources told Reuters in April that the deal could be delayed as the two countries struggle to reach agreement over the role of an Indian state-run subcontractor.

Under the initial terms of the proposed deal, Dassault was expected to provide 18 Rafale fighter jets in "fly-away" condition, and then let the state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited or HAL manufacture the rest in India.

However, Dassault now wants two separate contracts to be signed - one for the ready-made ones, and another for the rest to be built by HAL, but India opposes that proposal.

Dassault reportedly has concerns about whether HAL has the capacity and capability to assemble the aircraft and therefore wants to rope in other private Indian firms to manufacture the jets. Sources expect the kinks to be ironed out within the next six months.

India picked the Rafale for exclusive negotiations in January 2012 after a hotly contested bidding war with rival manufacturers, but is still to finalise the $15 billion deal, which would be one of the world's largest defence import orders.

© Thomson Reuters 2013


France sees first Rafale jet deliveries to India by 2016 | NDTV.com


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## DANGER-ZONE

sancho said:


> Which would be EXACTLY according to the RFP timeframe!



So what do ya say bout it .... \/ 



> *France sees first Rafale jet deliveries to India by 2016*
> 
> Paris: France expects to make its first deliveries of Rafale warplanes to India by 2016 or 2017, French Defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian was quoted as saying by financial daily Les Echos.
> 
> The paper said France's draft defence budget was based on an assumption that the first deliveries of the Dassault Aviation-built fighters would start in 2016.
> 
> Le Drian is set to go to New Delhi for talks about the contract, the paper said. India is negotiating to acquire 126 of the multi-role combat planes.
> 
> Indian sources told Reuters in April that the deal could be delayed as the two countries struggle to reach agreement over the role of an Indian state-run subcontractor.
> 
> Under the initial terms of the proposed deal, Dassault was expected to provide 18 Rafale fighter jets in "fly-away" condition, and then let the state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited or HAL manufacture the rest in India.
> 
> However, Dassault now wants two separate contracts to be signed - one for the ready-made ones, and another for the rest to be built by HAL, but India opposes that proposal.
> 
> Dassault reportedly has concerns about whether HAL has the capacity and capability to assemble the aircraft and therefore wants to rope in other private Indian firms to manufacture the jets. Sources expect the kinks to be ironed out within the next six months.
> 
> India picked the Rafale for exclusive negotiations in January 2012 after a hotly contested bidding war with rival manufacturers, but is still to finalise the $15 billion deal, which would be one of the world's largest defence import orders.
> 
> © Thomson Reuters 2013
> 
> 
> France sees first Rafale jet deliveries to India by 2016 | NDTV.com



I was wrong about my prediction n so do you and If a little more delay struck the deal first Rafale might come by 2018-19.
BTW when did you guys officially launched the MMRCA contest.


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## sancho

DANGER-ZONE said:


> So what do ya say bout it .... \/
> 
> I was wrong about my prediction n so do you and If a little more delay struck the deal first Rafale might come by 2018-19.
> BTW when did you guys officially launched the MMRCA contest.



The same that I told you before, the MMRCA RFP requires that the winning manufacturer provides the first squadron of fighters, at least 3 years after the signature. So if we sign the contract this year, the first squad of Rafale will be in India at least in 2016, with the licence production to start 1 year later. Dassault is offering 40 x Rafales in fast production since 2008, but MoD rejected it so far, since the MMRCA was an ongoing competition, so even 2 x squads and earlier availability is possible, if IAF requires it. That's why your predictions of 2018/19 are baseless and the M-MRCA RFP was sent out in 2007:

Press Information Bureau English Releases

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## DANGER-ZONE

sancho said:


> The same that I told you before, the MMRCA RFP requires that the winning manufacturer provides the first squadron of fighters, at least 3 years after the signature. So if we sign the contract this year, *the first squad of Rafale will be in India at least in 2016,* with the licence production to start 1 year later. Dassault is offering 40 x Rafales in fast production since 2008, but MoD rejected it so far, since the MMRCA was an ongoing competition, so even 2 x squads and earlier availability is possible, if IAF requires it. That's why your predictions of 2018/19 are baseless and the M-MRCA RFP was sent out in 2007:
> 
> Press Information Bureau English Releases



The contract is not signed yet ! after getting it done Dassault will start production of IAF Rafale and first batch (consisting on a few birds 2, 4 or 6, not a whole Sqd at once as you stated) will be delivered by 2016 - 17 If no more delays stuck the deal. Otherwise if it is pushed by the end of 2013 or the starting of 2014 add three years of production and several months of flight tests and here comes 2018. Fighter aircrafts are no cakes that you go to bakery and order a special cake and it will be ready in no time it takes years to get them flight ready. We ordered F-16B52 in 2006 aircraft started revealing in 2009 and we received first batch of 4 birds in 2010, i should remind you that production rate of F-16 was higher at that time as compared to Rafale now. You will be very well aware of Mig-29K examples too.


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## sancho

DANGER-ZONE said:


> The contract is not signed yet ! after getting it done Dassault will start production of IAF Rafale and first batch (consisting on a few birds 2, 4 or 6, not a whole Sqd at once as you stated) will be delivered by 2016 - 17 If no more delays stuck the deal. Otherwise if it is pushed by the end of 2013 or the starting of 2014 add three years of production and several months of flight tests and here comes 2018. Fighter aircrafts are no cakes that you go to bakery and order a special cake and it will be ready in no time it takes years to get them flight ready. We ordered F-16B52 in 2006 aircraft started revealing in 2009 and we received first batch of 4 birds in 2010, i should remind you that production rate of F-16 was higher at that time as compared to Rafale now. You will be very well aware of Mig-29K examples too.



Dassault is currently producing only 11 fighters, but the production line was aimed on 30 a year! They will increase it when the deal is singed, which according all official sources (from India and France) will be done this year, so there won't be any issues to provide at least 1 squadron in 3 years. 
Btw, the Mig 29K production has no relation to MMRCA, since it just started with the Indian order and was aimed on the delivery of the carrier, not to deliver all fighters as fast as possible.

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## DANGER-ZONE

sancho said:


> Dassault is currently producing only 11 fighters, but the production line was aimed on 30 a year! They will increase it when the deal is singed, which according all official sources (from India and France) will be done this year, so there *won't be any issues to provide at least 1 squadron in 3 years.*
> Btw, the Mig 29K production has no relation to MMRCA, since it just started with the Indian order and was aimed on the delivery of the carrier, not to deliver all fighters as fast as possible.



Where on earth that country is which can provide a whole Sqn of 16 - 18 oven hot aircrafts (newly made) within three years right after signing the deal. Please enlighten me with an example, even US, largest manufacturer of ARMS could not made any example like that, as of my info. Even if France make 30 aircrafts a year it will have go through ground tests and initial flights test weapon integrations etc etc and much more. Ok just gimme an example


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## sancho

DANGER-ZONE said:


> Where on earth that country is which can provide a whole Sqn of 16 - 18 oven hot aircrafts (newly made) within three years right after signing the deal. Please enlighten me with an example, even US, largest manufacturer of ARMS could not made any example like that, as of my info. Even if France make 30 aircrafts a year it will have go through ground tests and initial flights test weapon integrations etc etc and much more. Ok just gimme an example



My friend, you are too confused. First of all 18 fighters / 3 years = just 6 additional fighters a year. Secondly, the production capablility per year, has nothing to do with the induction timeframe of the forces, because the latter require an X ammount of fighters over an Y ammount of years and not all as fast as possible as you think. There is no problem for most of the bigger industrialised countries to build more than a fighter squad a year, since it only depends on how big your productionline is, or how many production lines you have, but to produce in big numbers you obviously needs high orders of either 1 or several types of fighters. Russia for example produced around 12 x Flankers a year at IRKUT, while they had at least the same for their own requirements at KNAAPO. India also produced MKIs and Jags at the same time at different productionlines and will go for 3 x different fighters in future, China produces Flanker types, J10 and most parts of the JF 17 as well per year, so all that is not a big deal.


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## sancho

SP's Aviation June 2013 e-Magazine - SP's Aviation

(Page 28, 29 and 34, the first part of this series basically repeats the initial story of the competition)


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## sancho

The first reports from the Paris Airshow are coming up:



> *Dassault Rafale convinced to sell in India and hopes this year*
> 
> Dassault Aviation was convinced Friday to sign the contract for the sale of aircraft Rafale fighter with India, both parties wish to conclude by him this year...
> 
> ..."India was the first export customer of Dassault in the 50s, it will surely also the first to sign the (contract) Rafale," said the CEO of Dassault, Eric Trappier at a press conference in Paris .
> "We hope to go as soon as possible. *If we listen to our Indian friends and if we listen to ourselves, we would like to finish in 2013, is finally sign a contract*," said the new boss who took the orders of the manufacturer at the beginning of the year.
> India has chosen the Rafale in January 2012 after a call for tenders for 126 units and an optional additional 63 aircraft. "*Discussions are underway on this option*," said Mr. Trappier.
> Refusing to enter into the details of negotiations, Mr. Trappier simply said they were going "in a very good mood", including the division of responsibilities between France and India on the one hand, and French industrial Indian and other. "There has never been a lock," he said...



Dassault Rafale convinced to sell in India and hopes this year - Flash news - Economics - 14/06/2013 - leParisien.fr


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## sancho

Something from the EF:



> *BAE'S dogfight in the global fighter jet market*
> 
> ...But it is the Typhoon&#8217;s financial firepower that chiefly interests BAE&#8217;s shareholders, still coming to terms with how the defence group&#8217;s Eurofighter consortium was out-gunned on a mega-deal last year.
> 
> It found itself outflanked by France&#8217;s Dassault Aviation in the bid for 126 warplanes for India &#8211; one of the biggest defence contracts on the block with an estimated value of at least $15bn (£9.6bn). India plumped for the Rafale jet fighter instead &#8211; though the deal has yet to be finalised.
> 
> Since then, BAE&#8217;s Eurofighter consortium &#8211; whose other members are Italy&#8217;s Finmeccanica and Airbus-maker EADS, representing Germany and Spain &#8211; has won a £2.5bn order from Oman for 12 Typhoons and eight Hawk training aircraft. But all eyes are now on three big looming contracts for South Korea, Malaysia and the UAE...
> 
> ...Add in the 12 fighter jets for Oman and, at a build rate of 24 jets a year, the production line extends into 2018, with the Typhoon a proper European project...



BAE'S dogfight in the global fighter jet market - Telegraph




> *AESA radar clears trial fit with Eurofighter*
> 
> One of the key future enhancements for the Eurofighter combat aircraft has moved a step closer to becoming reality, after BAE Systems performed a trial installation of an active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar with a test example of the aircraft...
> 
> ...Although no full integration and production contract has yet been signed, the sensor is also already being offered to potential future export customers for the Typhoon.



http://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...dar-clears-trial-fit-with-eurofighter-387060/


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## Abingdonboy

@sancho, so you've been head-hunted by BAE now then?


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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> @sancho, so you've been head-hunted by BAE now then?



Now? I was pushing the BAE/Mahindra offer for FICV for a long time too, but in this case it's just reporting news and infos with relations to MMRCA and that still includes EF of course.


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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> Now? I was pushing the BAE/Mahindra offer for FICV for a long time too, but in this case it's just reporting news and infos with relations to MMRCA and that still includes EF of course.



Lol, well it is an established fact you were working for Airbus Military but it seems you moonlight with BAE also! 

Seriously though do you really see this deal going to EFT? I think even if the worst were to happen and the Rafale bid collapses, the deal still wouldn't go to L2 EFT. 

The EFT has zero chances in India now whatever way you cut it as far as I am concerned. All these articles originating from the Brit media when referring to the MMRCA deal will always so " but the deal as not been signed yet" implying there is still a chance for the Typhoon to swoop in and clinch the deal at the last moment. 

This is pure fantasy.

Dassualt would have to be a new species of r-tard to lose the MMRCA bid now, right when the finishing line is in sight.


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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> Lol, well it is an established fact you were working for Airbus Military but it seems you moonlight with BAE also!



That's why so many people hate me, I actually route in many different directions, because I want the best for the forces and Indian defence. That's why I loved the selection of Rafale in MMRCA, but expect the F18SH for IAC2, or why I love the LCA, but still won't be shy to criticise the way the development was done, or why I am for the A400M and against additional C17s...



Abingdonboy said:


> Seriously though do you really see this deal going to EFT? I think even if the worst were to happen and the Rafale bid collapses, the deal still wouldn't go to L2 EFT.



No I don't but according to the rules and regulations, the EF is the 2nd option and by the lack of improvements in the LCA project, it remains to be the only option, although I would guess that IF Rafale won't be selected, we might go for some Pak Fa early versions (in a leasing deal or so) instead, because although only MMRCA can get us all the needed tot and offsets to improve our industry, the operational advantages of even the early Pak Fa are far superior to what the EF might be able to provide us by 2020.
This radar instalations and trials were initially meant to be done in 2011/12, but Indias decision made the EF partners not to provide the fundings and even now they haven't. Which confirms what I said since 2009 and why the EF was never a good choice for India. However, the current problems are made by Dassault and that is the sad part, because I would have expected them to finish things as fast as possible and not bring the deal in trouble for such silly things.

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## sancho

Latest addition of Dassaults Fox Three magazin, with more infos on Rafales performance in Mali, Libya, Afghanistan and technical improvements:

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/dae/sponsors/sponsor_rafale/img/fox3_17.pdf

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## sancho

Btw, Dassault Aviation CEO Éric Trappier confirmed at a press conference, that the current negotiations already include the optional 63, so there is a good possibility that IAF will get the prime operator of Rafales, especially if France doesn't order any more as it seems currently.

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## sancho

*Rafale demo at Paris Air Show 2013, cockpit view:*


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## satishkumarcsc

sancho said:


> Latest addition of Dassaults Fox Three magazin, with more infos on Rafales performance in Mali, Libya, Afghanistan and technical improvements:
> 
> http://www.defense-aerospace.com/dae/sponsors/sponsor_rafale/img/fox3_17.pdf




The last page cracked me up....LMAO! Beautiful pic but a direct 'SNIPE' for American figthers and the Typhoon.


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## sancho

satishkumarcsc said:


> The last page cracked me up....LMAO! Beautiful pic but a direct 'SNIPE' for American figthers and the Typhoon.



Yes, especially against the EF, but that all has it's pros and cons, which the French are realising as well. As long as France is the only operator of Rafale, remaining with the production, funding upgrades and ordering spares or weapons in higher numbers to reduce the costs will be difficult. That in the current global financial situation is very difficult for a country and which results in the cut of Rafale orders too, just as it happened with the EF. 
So the French (Dassault) should finally understand the importance of the Indian order and shoult stop messing around and offer a partnership for India to get the most out of it for both sides.


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## sancho

Crossposting from the MP forum, credits to Olybrius:








> Le Bourget 2013: New Rafale developments
> 
> At the Paris Air Show, the French DGA agency presents on its stand two preliminary studies programs currently funded to improve the performance of the French fighter aircraft in matter of detection and electronic warfare.
> Unreported, the LEA (Leurre Electromagnetique Actif, active electromagnetic decoy) project was presented for the first time at Le Bourget. This involves the development of a releasable active decoy, which would confuse a air-to-air missiles seeker in its terminal guidance phase. At least 4 lures could be carried by a Rafale in the same place of the current chaff at the rear of the fuselage. Unlike Eurofighter, this lure would not be towed by the aircraft, but dropped and would not have propeller either.
> "Such a system would effectively complement the Spectra system already built into the plane to thwart some very specific threats, such as air-to-air missile seekers operating in Ka-band" said an engineer. [...]the LEA is being studied at MBDA, and tests in tunnel shooting took place a month ago to check the separation system. Wind tunnel testing of the releasable lure should take place at the end of the year. This program is conducted under the PEA Incas (Integrating New Capabilities to Spectra)[...]



Air & Cosmos translation

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## sancho

New video of Rafales dogfights with the F22 during the ATLC exercise in 2009:

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## sancho

sancho said:


> New video of Rafales dogfights with the F22 during the ATLC exercise in 2009:




Statement from the Rafale newsblog to the video:



> The interresting thing in that engagement is that there are only 2 high G turns at the begining (400-500 kts / 9G+). Then, everything is about being able to manoeuver at very low speed... down to 80 knots in the Rafale case which is the very edge of its flight envelope.
> 
> Also note how the TV camera of the OSF (on the left side of the nose) is moving up and down to track the F-22.
> 
> The F-22 is big but still very hard to outmanoeuver thanks to its TVC as shown in that impressive video.
> 
> As stated at the begining of the video, this footage is not a demonstration of any superiority of the Rafale over the F-22 in close air combat but merely a confirmation that both fighters match each other closely in that particular area. In fact, most engagements reported at the time were draws with 1 gun kill credited to the Raptor. Now we know that the Rafale pilots also managed to get at least 1 fair and square victory, which is pretty cool  . Also, videos showing the raptor during actual simulated air combats are still very rare, especialy that long. For that reason I think it is certainly a worthy document whatever the outcome is.



Rafale News: Video, Rafale dogfighting F-22

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## sancho

> *Tiger meet 2013, new camo*














More here:

Rafale News: Tiger meet 2013, new camo

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## kurup

^^^^ Beautifull camo .....


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## sancho

Crossposting from the MP forum (credits to Olybrius):









> *HAL and Dassault Aviation confident in partnership*
> 
> On the occasion of the Paris Air Show, HAL Chairman, Dr RK Tyagi and Dassault Aviation chairman, Eric Trappier and their respective Senior Executives met to review the progress in ongoing projects.
> 
> Both Chairmen expressed satisfaction on the work already achieved by the integrated teams and renewed their commitment towards successful completion of the various projects...



HAL and Dassault Aviation confident in partnership | Dassault Aviation

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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> Crossposting from the MP forum (credits to Olybrius):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HAL and Dassault Aviation confident in partnership | Dassault Aviation


Positive news coming out of all sides- IAF ACM, Indian defence minister, French defence minister, French Ambassador Dassualt, HAL etc etc let's just see the signatures now- COME ON!!!!

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## Abingdonboy



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## Abingdonboy

Something interesting I dug up, some of the criteria set out in the original MMRCA RFP:


> 1) The M-MRCA on offer has to be a fully functional and mature system, with all its listed capabilities already in operational service and not requiring any further fine-tuning or R & D work.
> 
> 
> 2) The M-MRCA on offer has to deliver a payload capacity that is much greater than that of the envisaged Tejas Mk2 MRCA, but no more than what the Su-30MKI is already certified to carry.
> 
> 
> 3) The M-MRCA on offer has to come equipped with an infra-red search-and-track system optimised for air superiority operations, as well as a fully certified active phased-array multi-mode radar (AESA-MMR) capable of waging all-weather and network-centric knowledge-based air-to-air and air-to-surface warfare, and must come armed with standoff precision-guided munitions for both land-attack and maritime strike.
> 
> 
> 4) The M-MRCA on offer must have sufficient future growth capability to ensure that during its envisaged 40-year service life, it can be subjected to at least two major upgrade programmes aimed at enhancing the aircraft&#8217;s operational performance parameters.
> 
> 
> 5) For ensuring total operational sovereignty over the M-MRCA on offer, the aircraft must be accompanied by a through-life product support package that includes the establishment of all four levels of maintenance within India through the creation of a dedicated IAF base repair depot, plus through private sector/public sector product support joint ventures in which the original equipment manufacturer (OEM) of foreign origin (for the airframe, avionics, instrumentation, engine and accessories) and its Indian counterpart will be the principal business stakeholders, this being in consonance with the MoD&#8217;s direct industrial offsets guidelines (amounting to 50% of the total contract value) that are laid down by the MoD&#8217;s Defence Procurement Policy.
> 
> 
> 6) The M-MRCA on offer must be accompanied by the availability and delivery of fully certified training aids that should include the following:
> 
> A) Full-flight (or full-motion) simulator (FFS), which recreates sounds, motion, visual scenes, instrument presentations and all other systems in order to create a realistic flight training environment. The pilot will be able to train for landing, takeoff, weapons delivery, night flight, formation flight and cockpit familiarisation in normal, adverse and emergency situations. The handling characteristics of the FFS represent actual aircraft characteristics based on available flight data and input from experienced pilots.
> B) Flight training device (FTD), which can be used to off-load some of the training tasks from the FFS. The FTD is a fixed-base trainer that typically does not include a visual system, but uses the same flight management and control systems as a FFS, making it the ideal for instrument familiarisation and other standard flight operations.
> C) Cockpit procedures trainer (CPT), which assists pilots in learning the layout of the cockpit, the location of switches, lights, circuit breakers, instruments, and other functions. The CPT increases efficiency in the FFS and the actual aircraft by having the aircrew already familiarised with their surroundings.
> D) Part-task trainer (PTT), which is a training device that is designed to train a member of the aircrew or maintenance staff on a particular task associated with the aircraft. PTTs exist for a range of tasks including: avionics systems, systems familiarisation, weapons delivery, aerial refuelling, and a variety of complex tasks specific to a particular aircraft.
> E) Integrated procedures trainer (IPT), which can be used for mission rehearsals or to teach and practice any in-flight or on-ground procedures in a crew cockpit environment. It is a high-fidelity, low-cost training solution based on the same software used on the FFS. The IPT uses touch-screen monitors to display the cockpit and captures pilot inputs. The pilots can thus maintain their qualification on certain tasks without having to fly the FFS or the real aircraft. In addition to procedures training, especially for cockpit emergencies, the addition of a visual and tactical environment can give pilots the ability to practice the mission before operational deployment using the mission rehearsal station. This unit can be set-up and dismantled in one or two hours and handled and transported easily without the use of special tools or equipment.
> F) Computer-based training tools required for all four levels of maintenance.
> 
> 
> 7) Lastly, the M-MRCA on offer has to be delivered&#8212;through both off-the-shelf purchases as well as through in-country licenced-assembly&#8212;at a rate of no less than 20 aircraft per annum so that the IAF&#8217;s objective of fielding 42 combat squadrons is realised by 2022.


A bit pointless but I like learning about such things. In all this Rafale hoopla I'm sure many of us have lost sight of the fact that the package coming to India includes a lot more than just the birds. The trivial things like simulators, hangers, ground maintenance vehicles etc etc really intrigue me. I am looking forward to the day when the exact support and training (as well as weapons of course) package coming with the Rafale are revealed.

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## SR-91

@Abingdonboy , its not pointless,infact its a good read and thank you for sharing this with us.

*



7) Lastly, the M-MRCA on offer has to be delivered&#8212;through both off-the-shelf purchases as well as through in-country licenced-assembly&#8212;at a rate of no less than 20 aircraft per annum so that the IAF&#8217;s objective of fielding 42 combat squadrons is realised by 2022.

Click to expand...

*


Cant wait for this process to be over!!!

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## IND151

The $10.4 billion contract for 126 multi-role medium range combat aircraft that India has awarded to French aircraft maker Dassault for its Rafale aircraft has not got bogged down in any controversy nor were certain issues holding it up, Minister of State for Defence Jitendra Singh has said.

Rafale deal is progressing, not bogged down: Indian minister | idrw.org

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## sancho

> *Thales AESA Radar to Enter Service on Rafale Soon
> *
> On display in the Thales pavilion, the AESA (active electronically scanned array) version of the RBE2 radar will soon become the first of its kind to go operational in Europe. The first French air force Rafale squadron to convert to the new fighter will receive four AESA-equipped aircraft in October. The first production radar was delivered last October and is completing operational testing at Mont de Marsan airbase.
> 
> Bruno Carrara, director of the Rafale program for Thales (Hall Concorde 51), told AIN that the Rafale&#8217;s air-to-air detection range is proving to be 50 percent greater than before, and the AESA also brings significant benefits to search-and-rescue mapping and in power management...



Thales AESA Radar to Enter Service on Rafale Soon | Aviation International News


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## sancho

*Rafale in the French Air Force *

Nice videos and pics:

Rafale News: Video, Rafale in the French Air Force


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## sancho

And another dogfight video, said to be from the current Tigermeet, F16 vs Rafale:

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## Gessler

sancho said:


> And another dogfight video, said to be from the current Tigermeet, F16 vs Rafale:



That would be enough time to launch off a killer missile (in real combat).


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## sancho

gessler said:


> That would be enough time to launch off a killer missile (in real combat).



Actually even the gun kill was pretty fast and easy, coupled with MICA and if we add HMS it would be even superior.


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## jiki

Rafales to touch Indian sky in 2016 | idrw.org

SOURCE: DNA

With the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) and Dassault Aviation ironing out differences over the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA), the supply of the Rafale aircraft is expected to begin in 2016-17.

*According to a report in US-based Defense Update  a portal on military technology and defence news  French defence minister Jean-Yves Drain will visit India soon to conclude the MMRCA contract so that the supply of the first batch of aircraft can begin in 2016-17.
*
During the on-going Paris Air Show, HAL brass met with the top executives of Dassault Aviation to review the progress of the ongoing projects. Both the teams expressed satisfaction on the work already achieved by the integrated teams and renewed their commitment towards successful completion of the various projects, said a recent statement from HAL.

Indias plan to buy 126 fighter-jets from Dassault has been delayed even though the company won the fiercely fought bid two years ago. There have been reports that the deal has been delayed as Dassault and the government has not been able to finalise the role of HAL in the deal.

According to the deal, Dassault will provide 18 of the 126 aircraft in fly-away condition and the remaining are to be manufactured by the HAL. Media reports have stated that Dassault Aviation wants two contracts to be signed, one for the aircraft manufactured by it and another for the aircraft to be build by the HAL.

That apart, in the past, the French aircraft manufacturer has also expressed doubts over the technological and manufacturing capability of the HAL.

*
apart from the bloded part nothing is new*

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## sancho

> *Why Dassault and France remain optimistic about signing a contract in India*
> 
> The negotiations on the sale than 126 Rafale to India, after being very slow for several months on the issue of sharing of responsibilities between the French and Indian groups have taken over the last few weeks in all directions. *Dassault Aviation, which no longer requires two separate contracts, one negotiates now*.
> 
> The government and Dassault Aviation have been particularly enthusiastic in recent days on the implementation before the end of a contract for the sale of 126 Rafale in India. Why the optimism? According to reliable sources, the negotiations have been very slow after several months on the issue of shared responsibility, have taken over the last few weeks in all directions. "Very often when negotiations get stuck on one thing, once the obstacle, they leave at full capacity," said a close case. The Defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian even sold a little bit of explaining early last week that negotiations had resumed at a good pace. "*There has been significant progress, he explained, I hope they will continue and, if the contract is completed, it will be very good news for Dassault, the aerospace industry and for France*..."



Why Dassault and France remain optimistic about signing a contract in India

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## Taygibay

Hello all! 
I was asked in another thread by Abingdonboy for a general opinion on the Rafale's M-MRCA selection and am now answering.
I understand the thread here is also in full swing but it is the proper place to answer our mate's query and heck, it might serve as a refresher for the new people.

So here we go :
The initial points in what is now the "Deal of the Century" (again,lol) where strictly Indian. Obtaining 39.5 SQ strength for IAF which took place in the mid-80s was long enough so the good Mig-21's replacement was already on the Bharat plate. Then the PAF's so called Lost Decade should be factored in as it somewhat stifled the need of the IAF as proven by the Kargil War's aerial component. The original replacement ( corrected / edited from _MRCA_ thanks to Sancho's remark ) should have been started around 1995 in all logic. Between economics and the "lost decade", the Indian govt disregarded somewhat the format of the IAF.
The following In-house problem for India was the timeframe components. Why did a 2000-1 need take 5+ years to get to the 2006 RFP? The main consequence of that delay in my honest opinion is the missed opportunity on the transfer of the Mirage 2000 production line. It is also to be linked to the LCA though. Had the RFP issued faster, it could have resulted in a govt to govt deal on the M2K but then again, the LCA/Tejas development, had it fulfilled all its promises on time might also have been the solution to dwindling Sq numbers? So that there are at least one and more likely two missed opportunities there to fill the gap without an MMRCA affair?

Fast forward to 2006. We now have the complex set-up and all of its side issues. Corruption or dubious practices lengthened the selection. We all remember the numerous incidents from the M2K to Raffy switch or the French officials that denounced a bribe attempt by an Indian official just to pick from events involving "my" side. Strangely enough, the Rafale itself ( and others ) profited from that. If one re-reads the first line of the RFP Abingdonboy gave us anew in post 8510 up there, the "_M-MRCA on offer has to be a fully functional and mature system, with all its listed capabilities already in operational service and not requiring any further fine-tuning or R & D work_."
None of the jets involved truly fit that clause by trials time but had the timeframe been shorter, the AESA demo as one example would not have flown to Leh again picking from the French side?

Before the trials, many non-military matters also weighed in. The well-documented US habit to control the products it sells or parts thereof ( think imbroglio over source codes of F-35 with top ally UK ) is one. The fact that France was almost the only big player to stand by India on the nuclear/sanctions issue is another. Each of us could probably add to that list?
The good thing though is that, discounting fanboys, the IAF's exceptionally stringent and complete assessment through the trials phase put that to rest. It was a good thing, a very good thing. After such a quality downselect process, gone were the minor considerations brought forth by the so varied field.
[ Over-reliance on Russia ( which also sells to China ); Gripen that overshadows LCA by size/type factor; why Mig35 and not more SU-30MKI, any/all on top of those mentioned above, etc. ]

Once the Typhoon and Rafale were chosen by the IAF, things should have gone simpler. Yes, as amateurs of the mili aircraft, we could discuss tactics or which of the 2 would fit better between Jags, M2k, Tejas and Su-30MKI/FGFA later on but it had become a matter of LPI. Rafale won that and the race ended. It is quite possible that it was helped in that respect by the single vendor aspect. What I mean by that is that for the Eurofighter, money problems were compounded 4 times and decisions being collegiate might have required a tad more time. It shows in the Uk mostly which is more adamant on development and slowed a little by having to crosscheck its moves with the other 3 less it pays for everything alone. A lot of the ensuing noise actually sprang from fanboys mixing pre-selection conceptions of very relative value and industrial concerns. The former I won't enter as they are part of why I almost do not go on fora anymore.
The latter though is still important as it resurfaced since the deal brokering began. This in all truth is where some Desi might take exception to my views but heck, those who know me or read my blog will know that there is no disrespect intended.

I think that many in India when treating the negotiation process, tend to forget India's own bugs! One, constantly bringing back the Tejas is a mistake. If it had been realized properly and in time, yes, but it wasn't now, was it? Everybody and their sisters was asked in the LCA at some point so that singling out US/UK or France is downright stupid? For reasons of size and resources, Pakistan chose the _second seat_ cooperation with China on the JF-17 for instance. That was a logical way to develop the National abilities in mili aeronautics, period. Similarly, India chose to go full indigenous in the same respect and for the same reasons it was a correct decision. But at some point, if one wants to better themselves, an honest assessment of one's mistakes is necessary. DRDO and HAL have not yet delivered on the LCA matter, also period and sorry for being blunt? Such a feat as desiging and producing an efficient flying war machine does not happen by snapping one's fingers and HAL is no Dassault yet ( nor Sukhoi, Boeing, etc ). That is no sneer or jest, simple fact.
The same can be said of HAL's performance on the MKI assembly BTW. Just find an honest timeline of it and you will have to admit that the promises were not kept there either. Admitting as much would make Dassault's stand on the responsibility much easier to understand. They have proved to be able to build top fighters. Israel knows that, Pakistan knows that and India knows that!!! And while I am not enough of an expert on India to properly debate the value of Reliance Industries per say, the fact remains that this corporation has shown the ability to enter a new field running? Then if Dassault thought they could merge their expertise with that ability to insure a quality procurement, they should be trusted on it and not insulted over it as I read in Indian fora?
I do understand the problem raised by RIL being private but again, was it their fault that HAL is complacent ( possibly because public sector )? Was it normal to expect Dassault to hinge its profit margin on the past record of HAL such as it is? Would anyone of you accept readily to be paired with a less able co-worker and told that although not in charge nor authorized to overrule him your pay will hence be computed according to the colleague's proficiency??? I would not, period!

The last contentious point in our saga will then have to be TOT. I kept that for last as it is the one thing that so very few of us and mostly the fanboys understand fully. Unless directly involved, it is darn near impossible to know what the technology sharing comprises. Let me then give a theoretical example.
Nation A signs a deal with Nation B with a high ToT component on lollipop manufacturing. As the B vendor investigates the A industry, it discovers serious lacks. Such comprehensive lacks in fact that the level of transfer envisioned is simply unrealistic over the purported deal's timeframe. If one sticks ( pun intended ) to lollipops and schedule, it cannot be done in full.
If A & B have nothing else to exchange, the contract's objective might be unattainable.
Let us now suppose that the vendor has other technological achievements to its credit. If the A recipient is interested, it may elect to get only half of the transfer applied in the lollipop factory and to get the rest from transfers in wheat transformation or industrial packaging for food. If the added value is high enough, the initial goal is still obtained globally for A's industries although not strictly on the original premise and thus the deal can be saved?
In the M-MRCA case, this can be linked to my above considerations on HAL's performance. Recent pieces suggested that the ASMP-A could be included in the ToT. That stems from the fact that in such deals, governments have a big if not major say?
Suppose ( just a supposition, no more ) that Dassault and the Indian CNC agree behind closed doors that HAL will not be able to fully acquire the technologies concerned by the Transfer proposal. It then falls on either Dassault and / or other members of the Rafale GIE ( Thales, Safran, etc ) and / or the French government to offer palliative solutions? Those in turn have to be weighed for acceptable replacement interest by the concerned parts of the Indian govt / industry. And then the factorization of what the loss / gain in the other field is the basis for negotiating the overall value of the ToT?
None of us really know the subjects, domains nor parameters included ( and those that do would not be allowed to discuss it here? ) and as such, in my honest opinion, it is so much ado about nothing to press the issue?

There you have it, in a nutshell of course! I skipped over the outside interference sources such elections but as it stands, the deal is apparently on course and I trust that once finalized, the IAF and all other parties will benefit from it. As far as I'm concerned, the next big news will be either the addition of the supplemental 80-some ACs or barring that, the first flight of a Rafale in IAF livery  and maybe the acquisition of the Indian HMCS solution for it by the Armée de L'Air?

I'll be back soon to catch your pots and flowers and good day all, Tay.

P.S. As long as I have taken so much of your time, if any Pakistani ( and Hindi ) Gentleman ( or Lady ) has the time to drop by Definitive Lapse of Reason, I posted on the geo-politics of Asia a couple days ago and would appreciate and profit from answers and comments? It is after all A- your neck of the global woods and B- never too late to learn? Thnx in advance.

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## rockstarIN

sancho said:


> Actually even the gun kill was pretty fast and easy, coupled with MICA and if we add HMS it would be even superior.



even in this video, the the radar is not locking to F-16 like the F-22 video when it first appear in the screen?


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## Abingdonboy



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## sancho

@Taygibay

An interesting post, but too one / French sided and therefore wrong on several points, especially since you completelly leave out the French / Dassaults current situation with the Rafale, which is important as well. 

1995 for example would have made no sense for a fighter competition, from IAFs point of view. We just got all the M2Ks and mig 29s delivered in the late 80s early 90s and the LCA made it's first flight, not to mention that by then first Flankers were on the radar too. So besides the fact that it wasn't clear how good or bad the LCA development would go by then, we either could have gone for follow orders of M2K or Mig 29s, while the Su 30s were on the list too. In fact IAF wanted additional M2Ks pretty early, but they simply were too costly and why Russian fighters were procured instead.
In the 2000s on the other hand, after Kargil, sanctions and the problems of LCA getting evident, it was not only time but also the right decision to split the total requirement into LCA and a foreign jet. 
The switch to M-MRCA later has way different reasons and by the huge changes in all areas for India (financial, economical, political, technical and wrt the threat perception), it was the best choice for sure, but the competition could have been done faster. 




Taygibay said:


> Admitting as much would make Dassault's stand on the responsibility much easier to understand...
> ...Then if Dassault thought they could merge their expertise with that ability to insure a quality procurement, they should be trusted on it and not insulted over it as I read in Indian fora?
> I do understand the problem raised by RIL being private but again, was it their fault that HAL is complacent ( possibly because public sector )?



Not really, since Dassaults stand doesn't hold it's own when they didn't complained about the upgrade of Mirage 2000 in India, where they didn't insisted on similar 2 contracts, which takes them out of the responsibility of the upgrades that HAL does! 
Also if Dassault would have a point with concerns over HAL, they logically should have asked to divert a higher share of the production to Tata for example, which is way more experienced and capable in the privat aero sector today than Reliance, with major contracts from Boeing, LM, Sikorsky and Agosta Westland. No Indian forumer would complain about it, since most of them would happily support increased involvement of privat companies, but in this case Dassault only tries to get more benefits for their JV partner Reliance, which means they are looking at their own interest only! That obviously is not acceptable for MoD / IAF, since it was clearly given in the RFP how the final assembly will be done, so on the one hand we have the economical interest of a privat foreign company, on the other side the national interest of India and Indian forces! 

Wrt the M-MRCA:



Taygibay said:


> If one re-reads the first line of the RFP Abingdonboy gave us anew in post 8510 up there, the "M-MRCA on offer has to be a fully functional and mature system, with all its listed capabilities already in operational service and not requiring any further fine-tuning or R & D work."



The RFP didn't said that the fighters must be technically ready and available in 2007, but when the MMRCA winner should arrive in Indian service, which was planned around 2015. That's why AESA radars for example were required, although only the US fighters had them back then and that's not special, but common practice in any fighter competition. The Gripen E/F Switzerland procures will be available only by 2018 but was evaluated in the last years, Brazil evaluated fighters for 2017 and even the UAE wants new fighters only from 2017 onwards. 





rockstar said:


> even in this video, the the radar is not locking to F-16 like the F-22 video when it first appear in the screen?



Because it's a dogfight with guns only, in the F22 video it simulated missiles first and then switched to guns.

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## Taygibay

Hey Sancho!

Thanks for that comprehensive answer, mate!

You are right on the too French sided part but it just had to be as it was the premise of the "exercise". Abingdonboy had asked me for my "view on M_MMRca according to my Flag!!" in the ATLC video thread? So that yes, I was answering mostly from that perspective. 
In the same light, I did not feel compelled to address the situation in France, A- because that is not related to India's MMRCA but strictly an internal French problem and that would indeed have been too one sided? ( Don't blame me for one thing and its contrary in the same sentence, now, please?  ) and B- because I posted on that very subject on my blog which some here are familiar with and have read in a piece that is called : Jet fighters : Why France should thank India. | Definitive Lapse of Reason so that it was not needed to repeat.

You are totally right on the 1995 part. I did not mean 1995 as necessarily a competition but went to re-read my post and darn, I did write it so' duh! So I'll correct that but really meant to say addressing the Sq numbers and yes, extra orders such as you mentioned would have done the job fine for IAF ( had they been placed, of course ).

Your following point however, I did include. Yes, the LCA & MRCA were to co-exist and yes, it is the morphing into M_MRCA that changed the game. I am glad that you still agree on the importance of the delay in that/those competition(s).

Your point on Dassault's stand is in my honest opinion wrong however but mostly because you separated the idea and added to it. Let me explain. On the M2K upgrade, you disregard the fact that Dassault has no production line for that plane anymore. Which implies that it does the integration example and kits only? In the Rafale case however, the line in France could provide all 20/y Indian planes + the French present 11. That line is calibrated for 33 AC/Year. ( And besides the French order will go down as export ramps up ). The MMRCA conditions do not allow that but I'm just saying it could be done.
As for the planes built by HAL, the dual contract did make some sense considering the differences it implied. It seems the negotiators cleared that up however and that there will be only one which is fine.

On the Tata thing however, you forgot two things.
One is that I mentioned : "while I am not enough of an expert on India to properly debate the value of Reliance Industries per say...". On that basis, I accept your explanation of course but...
Two is that what you suggest is NOT acceptable in industry, period. Just as the Indian govt has every right to force Dassault to comply to the MMRCA deal by partnering with the PUBLIC outfit that is HAL, it has no right to force a private deal with a given company over another. Trust me please when I say that I have two good close friends in top positions in two different companies/fields of industry, both firms in the top 3 worldwide and they confirmed this to be unacceptable. The implications for the corporation would have wide ranging effects that could endanger their whole business plan for years. Indian forumers may have opinions regarding Tata or other vs RIL but these are just opinions. Your call that Dassault chose Reliance only for the money is laden with gall and presumption. My understanding as explained in my post was that Dassault wanted to partner with Reliance for trust issues. Even not being Indian, my knowledge of industrial markets/matters is more than enough to state that RIL has shown the ability to develop expertise in fields it was previously unqualified in and obtain excellent results in time and mostly on dime! THAT is the reason why Dassault would pick them. BTW, do check that the partnership for a JV was announced in 2012 :
Dassault Aviation Partners with Reliance Industries » Indian Defence Review
and this is the latest which states HAL as main OVER that JV ( Feb 2013 ) :
HAL will be `main partner` in Rafale aircraft deal: Dassault

Dassault by the way also has other JVs in India including Catia design work and integration. I hope you know that CATIA is the aviation industry's ( and many others ) most respected and used tool worldwide? 
3D CAD design software CATIA - Dassault Systèmes
Airbus , Kelsey-Hayes , Boeing, Lear Jet , BMW, Volvo, Black and Decker, Fiat Peugeot, Northrop Grumman Corp, Ferrari, Lockheed Martin , Porsche , Daimler Chrysler, Goodyear, Freightliner Truck , Allied Signal , Sauber Formula,Volkswagen, Pratt Whitney, United Airlines, Toyota, Hyundai , Ford, Mercedes-Benz , Honda ...

So if Indian fanboys think they know better than the corps listed above, heck let them think so?
But please, don't tell the avia corps ( underlined ) about your point on Bad Dassault going for buck only since they apparently trust them and would likely disagree?
Once again, Sancho, I do understand the emotional points of view but they just cannot be mixed with industrial reality and I do want the best for the IAF but straight to it and not bypassed by preference or corruption? That is all that I said in that post!
Heck, if Dassault had trusted and chosen Tata... all would be fine but it was not so? I do not have the infos to judge their reasons and neither do you!

As for your last point, the revised MMRCA delivery specifications were not termed by year anymore but as months following contract signature. As such, your claim of 2015 as an expected delivery date means nothing. So that if you use it in opposition to mine on the initial RFP's basis, we are both wrong.
Press Information Bureau English Releases on 28 Aug 2007, the RFP was issued. If the trials had been held within 2 years, the decision taken within one and the contract signed in one also then it would have been 2011? 
The first of the 18 import batch is to get to India 36 months after signature at the latest and the last 48 months at the latest.
What that implies is that if the contract is signed say on January first 2014, the first Rafale could get to the IAF in late December 2016 ( effectively 2017 )??? By Jove, under such rules, if the contract breaks down in 2014 and goes to the second vendor ( EF ) and takes but a single year to be signed, the new date would fall to 2018-9? Of course all planes would be fully developed by then, God forbid the contrary even outside the MMRCA's scope? 
I'd rather see it as implied that the fighters were to be *ready* for induction 36 months after the trials at minima if only for the IAF's sake and that comes to 2013 instead. And the Rafale line is now churning out AESA fighters, QED!
That is only an opinion but again to favor the IAF itself? The fighters BTW were supposed to be fully tried in India and special derogation was awarded for the said AESA ( as an example ) on the Gripen, remember, which saw Indian experts go to Sweden? I have no qualms against that at all as it seems again to be in the IAF's best interests? It still shows my last presumption that the trials ( already delayed by the lengthy process ) were the best date in the whole affair to judge availability by?

So there you go, mate. I hope these counter points to be clear and wish you and all a good day, Tay.


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## sancho

Taygibay said:


> Your point on Dassault's stand is in my honest opinion wrong however but mostly because you separated the idea and added to it. Let me explain. On the M2K upgrade, you disregard the fact that Dassault has no production line for that plane anymore. Which implies that it does the integration Example and kits only?



The lack of a production line of M2Ks doesn't matter, since the "reported" issue of Dassault was, that HAL might have delays in their assembly and Dassault don't wanted to be responsible for it. The same logic would apply to the M2K upgrade and the part that HAL would do, since just like in M-MRCA, HAL mainly assemblies the parts that will be provided by French or Indian companies (Dassault, Thales, Sagem, BEL, Samtel, DARE...). So no matter if it's delays of Rafale or the M2K, Dassault actually must complain about HAL in both cases and must ask for different contracts which seperates their responsibility from HAL's!
The fact however is, they don't and started complaining about it only this year and not in 2010 when the M2K upgraded was fixed, nor before the MMRCA trials, or even after the selection of Rafale. 



Taygibay said:


> Two is that what you suggest is NOT acceptable in industry, period. Just as the Indian govt has every right to force Dassault to comply to the MMRCA deal by partnering with the PUBLIC outfit that is HAL, it has no right to force a private deal with a given company over another.



Who said the government would force Dassault? In fact, during Aero India 2013 the defence minister and the IAF chief publically stated that Dassault is free to choose Indian partners to divert the offsets, but the final assembly must remain with HAL, since that was a requirement of the RFP. So from the Indian side there is no general restriction, just about the final assembly part and that is something that Dassault can't demand. 
The point however was, that if Dassault has an issue with HAL based on technical reasons and they only would want another Indian supplier, Dassault logically should have asked for one that already is in the aero field and is more capable than HAL. But that doesn't fit to Reliance, so Dassault is not complaining about technical reasons, but simply out of personal preference / benefits!

Btw, I don't blame you for having a French viewpoint, nor do I blame Dassault for trying to get the best deal for them, which is a normal procedure in business, but it's silly to delay the deal further for dubious reasons and bring it closer to the election times, instead of fixing all things as soon as possible. 
One should think Dassault has learned from the disaster in Brazil, where the elections changed everything, or that they would look beyond their success in the civil aviation and would understand how important the Indian order is for them and the Rafale today! 




Taygibay said:


> Even not being Indian, my knowledge of industrial markets/matter is more than enough to state that RIL has shown the ability to develop expertise in fields it was previously unqualified in and obtain excellent results in time and on dime!



You don't have to be Indian to understand simple logic , because nobody denies that RIL has the potential and can develop expertise in time and there is no doubt that Indian aero industry will benefit from another major player in future. However, Dassaults claim was that HAL can not do it today, but neither can RIL and that is the crucial point where their argumentation simply doesn't fit!
If Dassault feels that RIL has potential and wants to produce parts for the Falcon with them, no problem! It brings more jobs to India and creates more know how, but demanding to replace HAL only with a currently less capable company is not going to happen.



Taygibay said:


> As for your last point, the revised MMRCA delivery specifications were not termed by year anymore but as months following contract signature. As such, your claim of 2015 as an expected delivery date means nothing.



That wasn't a claim, but based on the fact that the MMRCA was expected to be signed by 2012, with delivery of the first squadron 3 years later => 2015 and the requested capabilities were required to be ready by then!
Now the deal is delayed of course and the delivery is expected in 2016/17, but that has nothing to do with the technical demands in the RFP and logically not with the capabilities that was shown in the trials.



Taygibay said:


> The fighters BTW were supposed to be fully tried in India and special derogation was awarded for the said AESA ( as an example ) on the Gripen, remember, which saw Indian experts go to Sweden?



That's not correct, neither was it demanded to be fully developed for the trials, not to show all capabilities in India. The Gripen NG came to India with AESA, but did only a small part of the trials, the rest was done by Gripen C/Ds, the EF were German Luftwaffe once, with Captor M, limited EW and no PIRATE, the Russians send modified Mig 29Ks, while the AESA was later integrated on one of them and shown during the trials in Russia... 
The competition demanded certain trials to be done in India, which was mainly important to evaluate the engine and flight performance in different climate conditions in India. The technical or weapon trials could have been done in the manufacturer countries too (btw there was an Indian team in France to evaluate the Rafale too), but as I said they never should had allowed all 6 contenders to the trials, to reduce the time. 


Thanks for the link to your blog, will check it.

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## Taygibay

Sorry Sancho, I had an answer but there seems to be a problem with my posting it.
I'll answer as soon as it's fixed!
Tay.

Hi again Sancho!

I'm going to try to answer you again but I may sound harsh. I take part of the blame if I sound flippant at times because as I have said, I am not into the volley type of posting that is customary on fora in mili affairs anymore as I see it as a lost of time mostly. Just know before hand that when you stick to providing infos as I have read in your posts most often, I think the best of you. But in all truth, when you ( or I BTW' reason enough not to do so IMHoO ) descend into "wifey logic" of answering with halfbaked off-topic disregarding facts to favor opinion, you ( or I ) are no better than the rest. ( See, I already went south with the sexist comment, SIGH. Sorry! )

YES the line of production makes all the difference between M2K upgrade and Rafale for MMRCA, mate. Simply because there is no choice for the vendor in case one and no pure production for the acquirer? If you want to compare MMRCA deal, you have to do so with the SU_30 MKI HAL saga. You know full well that HAL had problems there. More SKDs than planned. More CKDs also. The first Full Indigenous is now in production admittedly but look here :

_&#8220;As per the original compressed programme, they (HAL) will have to complete the deliveries by 2014-15. It is unlikely that this deadline will be met now and we expect a delay of three years,&#8221; IAF sources said. Express has learnt that the delay in design and development phase of Sukhoi in Russia impacted the receipt of technology and tooling in India. In addition, HAL too had issues in absorbing new technologies and setting up of capital infrastructure._
Tarmak007 -- A bold blog on Indian defence: Desi Sukhoi performs supersonic ballet on debut | Aircraft built from complete raw material phase makes a silent entry

or here :

_Not only has the supply of the top-of-the-line Sukhoi-30 MKIs run into production and maintenance bottlenecks, the Ministry of Defence (MoD) has pushed back the 2017 deadline for the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) that India and Russia are collaborating to develop by two years._

_The Russian aircraft are being produced under licence. HAL should have absorbed the technology in Phase IV and enhanced the local content in manufacturing to about 50 or 55 per cent, which it hasn't._


IAF Sukhoi fleet production runs into bottleneck cloud : North, News - India Today

or here :

_Delivery of Sukhoi Su-30MKI fighters to the Indian air force (IAF) is likely to be delayed due to development issues.

State-run Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) is currently undertaking the production of 222 Su-30 aircraft. HAL was supposed to start delivery of the all-weather air-dominance fighters to the country&#8217;s defense forces by 2015.

But now this may not happen &#8220;as per schedule,&#8221; according to India&#8217;s junior defense minister, Jitendra Singh.

Besides the production of SU-30 MKI fighter aircraft, HAL is juggling production of the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), Advanced Jet Trainer (Hawk), Intermediate Jet Trainer (IJT), Advance Light Helicopter (ALH), Light Combat Helicopter, Light Utility Helicopter and Dornier-228. Some of these other programs are also experiencing delays, according to the ministry._
Su-30MKI Delivery To Indian Air Force Slips

In order of publishing dates?
If you do not understand that to be PROOF and reason enough for Dassault to have trust issues with HAL's capacities, I can'T help you, mate! IJT, Tejas, LCH, et al.? HAL does not deliver as per promises, period! So that I state bluntly that : Dassault has a track record twentyfold better and should be trusted as per that ratio! No nitpicking about what this or that cousin said, French, Desi or Martian, just the truth! Do understand that if your nationalistic pride gets in the way of admitting as much, you'll get shitty products for years to come? And I assure you that I have been very critical of my personal or national performances as it is the only way to better one self!

And please understand that Dassault started complaining earlier than you think as evidence by the JV signing with RIL date ?
You became aware of it when it became public, man. That's all. What is discussed in CNC and the likes is not public and that is both normal and a good thing.
Case closed.

You go on to say :
"The point however was, that if Dassault has an issue with HAL based on technical reasons and they only would want another Indian supplier, Dassault logically should have asked for one that already is in the aero field and is more capable than HAL. But that doesn't fit to Reliance, so Dassault is not complaining about technical reasons, but simply out of personal preference / benefits!"

Again, wrong! Your use of logically is incorrect. Dassault chose RIL as I already explained because they showed the ability to enter NEW fields in short time with proper performance, period! The expertise for airplane production comes from DASSAULT, NOT RIL, durn it? I trained men in the Army and other endeavours. If all have similar potential, I'll take one that has shown the capacity to learn quickly over the one with some experience but a bad track record ANYTIME!
[ As a matter of fact, I remember this exchange with a colleague. He said angrily : -"I'm 31, 13 years served and have been a Staff-Sergeant for 7 years!" to show his superiority. 
To which I answered softly : -"I'm 20, 11 months served and have been a Staff-Sergeant for 6 months? And scheduled for promotion in a year? And the reason why the whole squad is now laughing is because in all this time, you haven't learned to have such exchanges behind our office's closed doors?  ]
Just to show my points on learning abilities and discreet discussions?

And in the same part of your post, you mention Brazil & elections without realizing that this was not Dassault but the French govt's fault? Apples and oranges really?
That is also why in this case, India and Anthony and IAF are to be commended for the way the process was handled. Very detailed and clear from 2007 on, very pro in the evals, etc? So that now, it is but a matter of contract the latest news being rather encouraging as I posted in my previous answer to you?

You then come back to RIL's selection by Dassault which I already answered.

Your next point is about dates and schedule which you locate as 2015 for reception and I gave as wrong. Let me just say this and provide a link : you pick your starting point thus _"That wasn't a claim, but based on the fact that the MMRCA was expected to be signed by 2012..."_
I disagree ( but that does not make me right per say as I also stated in my last post  ).
Here is why : 
_"Given the elaborate and complex procurement procedures, stringent and multi-layered financial scrutiny, painfully slow decision-making process, the lead time for manufacture and time for training, *it may take* over a decade for the proposed MRCA to be fully operational in the IAF."_
As written by Air Marshal B K Pandey in first quarter 2005, showing that he initially wanted the planes *before* 2015.
ht tp: //www. forbidden indian forum .com/SRR/Volume13/pandey.html
Confirmed below in 2008 :
MMRCA - In Progress - SP's Aviation
Even if you check Wikipedia, ( yes, not a great source, I admit as much  ) you will find initial dates for the deal to be signed to be 2009-2010 which is coherent with my expectation of 2013 deliveries that slipped to 2014 in Air Marshall Pandey's estimate above. Had the RFI been turned into RFP faster, had not the DDP delayed things and the MRCA re-written as MMRCA,
2010 being the initial date 2013 would have been right and of the two short-listed ACs, Rafale the only one ready as I said.

Last was your pick up of my recall of the Gripen/Sweden mention. You are right that there was a provision for IAF teams to visit abroad ( mostly for weapons trials ). That, though, is not what I was implying at all. The real plane in the RFI/RFP did not visit India. Those sent to Bharat were JAS 39. An exception was made to fly the real thing NG Demo in Sweden. I am sorry buddy but that was a special case, period, whether you acknowledge it or not. Fact! But you should not nitpick at my comment as I just mentioned it to show that I was in truth not complaining for my side on what IMHoO amounts to details. 

_"Last heard, the Swedish JAS-39 Gripen was not able to take part as the company had brought a different (older?) model for trials supposedly because the new Next Generation model proposed for India was undergoing some trials in Sweden."_
MMRCA: A difficult choice for the IAF | Institute for Defence Studies and Analyses

So there you have it! I hope you understand my views even if you don't accept them fully but I have done my best to give you links, most of them Hindi to show good faith.
I do want also to point out of courtesy that I will likely not be able to answer you if you post again until what should be around 22h00+ Pakistani time Friday eve at the soonest for IRL job reasons and then not next week-end either as I'm going on a bike trip with my son. So just in case, we miss each other, keep safe, all the best to you & yours and the same to all around Pakistani Defence, Tay.


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## Taygibay

AH Got it but had to split a link. It seems that it may be forbidden to link to a given Indian Forum.
If at all possible, I'd like to know why, where the explanation can be found etc.
Sorry to have bent the rules if so, Tay.


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## sancho

Taygibay said:


> YES the line of production makes all the difference between M2K upgrade and Rafale for MMRCA, mate. Simply because there is no choice for the vendor in case one and no pure production for the acquirer?



I am not comparing MMRCA, I am comparing Dassaults claims which is one for HAL in MMRCA and another for HAL during M2K upgrade. And again, in both cases, HAL is contracted to do the major assembly part in India, so it's only about how they see things differently although HAL does the basically same in both cases!
That why it has nothing to do with a production line of Dassault in France, since that is not the matter of Dassaults claims about HAL and wrt to the Su 30 production or HALs production in general you should take a look at this:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/4347-mrca-news-discussions-556.html#post4133487


You obviously have some biased opionions about HAL, but you clearly lack the necessary knowledge too. Tejas for example is not developed by HAL, but by ADA and DRDO. HAL is only the contractor and responsible for the production, which not even has started fully so far, but the delays are caused by developent problems, which is why MoD is blaming ADA and DRDO currently even publically! Just one example and some more were in the link, but since that is not the matter, here, we should stick to Dassaults claims only. 




Taygibay said:


> Do understand that if your nationalistic pride gets in the way of admitting as much



Now you getting totally unreal! Where did I stated anything because of nationalistic reasons? Again, the matter is that Dassault claims that HAL can't do the assembly, but

A) suggested a less capable company instead

B) that they didn't stated the same trust issues about HAL doing the M2K upgrades


You might not like my arguments, but that doesn't mean you have to come with such a silly attitude! If this is a discussion, you have to get arguments! Arguments why Dassault complains one time and not the other time and not half backed opinions only, which as I shown are often based on your outside belive but not on facts.




Taygibay said:


> And please understand that Dassault started complaining earlier than you think as evidence by the JV signing with RIL date ?



 How is that suppose to be an evidence? The Rafale was selected in Jan 2012, as part of the offset negotiations Dassault, Thales and co started building JVs with Indian counterparts, RIL was just one of them and that is not a problem, since Dassault is free to do it and to divert certain parts to Indian privat partners of their choice. But hat had nothing to do with HAL at all ! ! !
Btw Snecma has JVs with HAL for the production of M88 engines and Sagem for navigation and Flight control systems, so what does this tell you? News from recent Paris Air Show:

Sagem and HAL to create Indian manufacturing and service centre - IHS Jane's 360




Taygibay said:


> The expertise for airplane production comes from DASSAULT, NOT RIL



If so, why not provide the same expertise to the company that already has know how, that already knows about licence production, maintenance and overhaul routines of Dassault through Mirage or Jaguar fighters, why provide it to a completely new company that has to learn all these things from scratch?

When you answer this honestly to yourself, you will understand the truth!



Taygibay said:


> And in the same part of your post, you mention Brazil & elections without realizing that this was not Dassault but the French govt's fault? Apples and oranges really?



Not really, the point was, that elections changed everything in Brazil and the same can happen in India too, which is why it's not very smart of Dassault to delay things in India now, by stalling negotiation, unless they want to loose the deal at the end too. 




Taygibay said:


> I disagree ( *but that does not make me right per say*).



Exactly and it's good that you can acknowledge that, especially when you take the initial MRCA competition as the base and not the M-MRCA competition! The RFP for the M-MRCA was sent out in 2007/08, with the trials only begining in 2010 and the shortlisting and contract signature estimated 1-2 years after the trials. So you have mixed up the competition dates and came to wrong conclusions. 




Taygibay said:


> I am sorry buddy but that was a special case, period, whether you acknowledge it or not. Fact! But you should not nitpick at my comment



LOL  are we distracting now? Your claim was that the capabilities had to be shown in India, but that the Gripen couldn't and that a team was sent to Sweden instead. That remains wrong, since the capabilities didn't needed to be shown in India, but where the manufacturer wanted to show it. That's why I even gave you the examples of EF and the Mig, which also showed the radars only in their countries only. So who really can't admit to the facts here?

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## Taygibay

Hello man, I have time for a short answer before work so :
A- M2K upgrade is components+refurb not new built from scratch as Rafale by the end of MMRCA procurement
-do persist on not understanding the difference, I'm done trying to explain.

B- You do not open links which is your problem. Those I gave were Desi and concur with my views on HAL
-do ignore even your own, it sure makes blinding one self easier, done here too.

C- You said : _"If so, why not provide the same expertise to the company that already has know how, that already knows about licence production, maintenance and overhaul routines of Dassault through Mirage or Jaguar fighters, why provide it to a completely new company that has to learn all these things from scratch?

When you answer this honestly to yourself, you will understand the truth!"_

- I answered that clearly but you won't accept it which is your right. Having expertise at semi-failure means little. That answer about honestly answering ( meaning answer the way you do no matter if true ) and understanding truth ( meaning the only valid one : yours ) reeks of condescension and fanboyism at best, trolling, sectarianism or religious-like illumination at worst. Not worth any more answer.

D- I hope for BOTH Dassault's sake and India/IAF that politics ARE NOT the reasons for any change in the contract negotiations. That would be a derailment of process and contrary to the best interests of the taxpayers and the Efforts of Anthony and the DPP.

- The very fact that you compare a contract under negotiation MMRCA / IN to an unfinished tender FX-2 / Br is a clear indication of the level of wishy washy discussion you want to pursue IMHoO. Sadly, I don't as explained before, thus done here.

E- Of course I ALWAYS use initial need and intent to evaluate how a program goes. Rafale and Typhoon or LCA or F-35 all had such lengthening for instance. Four different causes : Govt planning / cash availability / technical development problems / too complex a program marred by systemic industrial unkept promises and face saving. Still all delayed. Just facts?

- Had you read the links and gone to check the sources, you would have found 2014 ( right in between your date and mine ) to be the opinion of Ex IAF Air Marshal Pandey! He works there :
Air Marshal BK Pandey » Indian Defence Review ...why don't you get over your dislike for opening links and go try to swap he said she said with him asking him to understand the truth? Cause I'm done! 

And F-inally, the JAS 39s went to all 3 air bases for testing but were NOT the aircraft proposed in MMRCA. The NG came to India 2 months later in one unit ( since there was only one Gripen Demo built ? ) and NOT the RFP suggested 2 that the others fielded and ONLY did the LEH HA trials which by the way delayed the competition. It allowed IAF better eval, granted but was a different rule than applied. And yes, apart from weapons and radar, the rest of the aircraft was to be tested by IAF in India for which there are clear reasons if you know anything about the use of these machines.

MMRCA delayed as Indian procurement continues | Aviation International News
- Again, read the link above or the one below to find those facts to which I supposedly can't admit and please write to them instead to question their understanding. Which by the way is just another example of your nitpicking as I already stated twice, that I only gave it initially to show that the process had been void of dissent on the IAF's performance. So come again, but don't expect an answer, there's really no need.

Good luck to you and good day all, Tay.


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## Major Shaitan Singh

*Paris Air Show 2013*

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## Abingdonboy



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## Abingdonboy



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## Abingdonboy



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## sancho

Taygibay said:


> A- *M2K upgrade is components+refurb not new built from scratch* as Rafale by the end of MMRCA procurement


And still *you* claimed about a relation to an M2K production line isn't it? But there isn't and HAL is not building the Rafale from scratch, but mainly from components delivered to them, just as they upgrade M2K from components too. Also in both cases Dassault provides their expertise to do the assembly of these components, so it's hardly deniable that HAL's part is the same in both case and that Dassault can't be ok with one case and complain about the other...

...unless you have a too French point of view of course! 



Taygibay said:


> Those I gave were Desi *and concur with my views on HAL*


That's the problem! You have a biased point of view about HAL and just searched for reports that suits it. But as you acknowledged yourself, that doesn't mean you are right! 
The quotes in my older post, are based on a official statement in the parliament, which confirms that the delays in the early MKI production stages, came from late delivery of plans and drawings from Russia, just like the delays in the Hawk production was caused by BAE and to avoid such things, *so do you really want to say that you know more about HAL's production problems than the government?*
Not to mention the fact that more and more western companies diverts productions to HAL in JVs as I showed too, *so do you say you know more about HAL than Sagem, Snecma, EADS, RR, Boeing...? *

HAL is definitely not perfect and has a long way to go, but your point of view is just based on bias and hearsay, not on what they are really able to do or not! 



Taygibay said:


> Having expertise at semi-failure means little... Not worth any more answer.


Again a clear show of bias, denial and lack of arguments. 


Here is a good recap that you should read, to understand what the Dassault/RIL vs HAL issue is really about:



> ...The French giant, Dassault, was of the opinion that the fiduciary clause, which made it mandatory for them to pay penalties *in case of problems of quality with the kits they are supposed to supply to the HAL*, resulting in any time delays, should be removed. The Indian team was adamant that it cannot be as it was in the RFP also, and if Dassault had problems with that clause they could have avoided any response to the tender...
> 
> ...These contradictions had earlier given rise to a speculation that whether *Dassault was objecting to the HAL clause because it wanted its preferred Indian peer, Reliance Industries, to be given the task of setting up an aerospace production company and undertake the task of making Rafale.*
> 
> *However, Millennium Post could not elicit any response on this question either from Dassault or from Reliance Industries*. The RIL respresentative in the newly formed aerospace business...was unavailable for comment on the questionnaire of this correspondent. The questions were:
> 
> - Is Reliance Industries advising Dassault on the ongoing contract negotiations?
> 
> - If it is, what is the nature of this advice? If no, why is it not lending its obvious expertise in dealing with the Indian government to Dassault?
> 
> - In the recent reports about how the negotiations have got bogged down on the issue of who was liable for HAL's probable mistakes during the licence production of the 108 Rafales under the contract, there were speculations that Dassault had taken a hard line because it wanted its partner, Reliance, to produce the aircrafts. Is this a correct supposition?
> 
> 
> *Dassault too did not respond to a query on the issue. Meanwhile, the world watches.*



Will IAF get to fly Rafale | Millennium Post


Dassault is ill advised by their Indian partner and risking delays of the contract signature, based on personal benefits for them and RIL is simply not a smart way so close before the elections!


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## Major Shaitan Singh

* Exercise Tactical La Fayette Week dans le sud de la France*






This exercise aims to train in a realistic environment crews to different tactics phases of a complex air mission. At program, phases of in-flight refueling, bass penetration and average altitudes, and air combat in flight in the most strict of aviation safety rules peacetime respect.

The planes have evolved in the most aerial extent training area France, that covers everything maritime spatial between Perpignan and Solenzara, in Corsica. This zone, one of largest in Europe, offers very beautiful training possibilities (supersonic speed, very low altitude flight ...). The use of modern means of such conduct Stradivarius (vizualisation tool in real time of the air situation) has favored optimization aerial means dedicated to TLW.

On balance, the year totaled 137 attractions in nine raids consisting of 15 to 25 hunters. The number of actors also reveals the success of TLW: Mirage 2000N, Rafale, Mirage 2000-5, Mirage 2000D, Mirage F1, Alphajet, tanker aircraft C135 and a E3-F radar airplane. TLW is also characterized by its joint dimension with the participation of Gust 11F fleet of the Navy, but also an Allied dimension with the presence of Spanish and Italian Eurofighter, Spanish F18 and British Tornado. Finally, by its action, the center of detection and control de Lyon Mont-Verdun has allowed to give its full dimension to this exercise.


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## sancho



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## Taygibay

Sancho said :"_And still you claimed about a relation to an M2K production line isn't it? But there isn't and HAL is not building the Rafale from scratch, but mainly from components delivered to them, just as they upgrade M2K from components too. Also in both cases Dassault provides their expertise to do the assembly of these components, so it's hardly deniable that HAL's part is the same in both case and that Dassault can't be ok with one case and complain about the other...

...unless you have a too French point of view of course!_

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/4347-mrca-news-discussions-569.html#ixzz2YYrbbD7j

No mate, I did not, you did. Check your initial answer here :
_Not really, since Dassaults stand doesn't hold it's own when they didn't complained about the upgrade of Mirage 2000 in India, where they didn't insisted on similar 2 contracts, which takes them out of the responsibility of the upgrades that HAL does! 

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/4347-mrca-news-discussions-569.html#ixzz2YYyjMU7J_
The M2K production line was offered to India. Now it does not exist even in France! The work on these is a refurbish, period! The MMRCA however is supposed to end with nearly fully autonomous build in India; along the lines of SU-30 affair. 
As for too French an opinion ... on a French product? Miles ahead of one from an unconcerned foreigner, wouldn't you say? Or do you try to teach Pakistanis about their AirForce & country too? Take that foot out of your mouth, bragger!

As for that article you quoted, two remarks "buddy" :
First you said earlier that : "_That's the problem! You have a biased point of view about HAL and just searched for reports that suits it. But as you acknowledged yourself, that doesn't mean you are right! 
The quotes in my older post, are based on a official statement in the parliament ...

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/4347-mrca-news-discussions-569.html#ixzz2YYu1jO1Y_

So, wait!? My posting Indian views from selected news outfit is to suit me or my line/PoV but when YOU do it, it is fine?
Because Will IAF get to fly Rafale | Millennium Post Millenium Post is official Govt of India outfit now is it?
Do what I say not what I do? That is the epitome of the trolling attitude! Congrats, you got it down to pat!
Which is even clearer and funnier when you chose to give us the supposed/prospective/uncertain/opinionated part of that article? 
So just for fun, here is the part you judiciously left out :
*"The much talked-about &#8211; in the normally cloistered defence sector circles &#8211; stall in the contract negotiations between the defence ministry and the high value, 126 Medium, Multirole Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) deal contender, the French firm Dassault has ended, and the talks have begun again. This brings back Rafale on the table as the chosen fighter aircraft of the IAF in this gigantic 
$ 20 billion contract.

The Indian Air Force (IAF) chief, Air Chief Marshal NAK Browne had told journalists on Monday that the problems in the negotiations have been &#8216;resolved,&#8217; and he expects the negotiations to be over by September this year, and the contract is to be signed by March 2014. This will happen after the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) agree to the initial agreement and gives a go-ahead for the contract.

But some insiders are less optimistic. They say that the Contract Negotiations Committee (CNC) is virtually running against time because the deal needs to be signed by September-October in the Congress-led UPA II regime. Otherwise, it could spill over the general elections and a possible new political equation.

At the centre of the problem that stalled negotiations was the issue of the public sector Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) being up to speed in terms of &#8216;licenced production&#8217; of the aircraft &#8211; a condition for eventual transfer of technology that is at the front and centre of the Request for Proposal (RFP) issued about five years ago."*

LOL, I can use the fancy colors too ... in this case, to show that your excerpt was the speculation part of a biased "too Indian" ( as you would say ) journo that even managed to put quotation marks around the words of the acting IAF AC Marshal?
Again a clear show of bias, denial and lack of arguments

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/4347-mrca-news-discussions-569.html#ixzz2YYxTDSzV
Flung right back at you; that's dishonest, little man.

Just as when you quoted my honest assessment on possible error with added red color when it was referring to this :
"So that if you use it in opposition to mine on the initial RFP's basis, we are both wrong"" sentence in my first answer to you.
One of us makes mention of ambivalence and difficulty to judge. One of us stated the other to be right on some points. One of us was careful to point out possible lacks of his. The other accompanied its claims of perfect hindsight and sole possession of truth with repeated remarks on nationality and intent.
I'm not a fan of screaming and posturing so that I'll add to my previous post : Not only, will I not answer you further on my MMRCA post to answer Abingdonboy but I won't answer you period.
This will allow you to finish the exchange, likely claiming victory and allow me not to be untruthful when trying to be polite (also exhibited from the start more by one side, I believe ) in conversation with the good members of this forum.

Keep the noise level up, man! I am certain there are many fans of that over significance!


And for all the rest of the gang, I am sorry for my part in the ungracious last exchanges in this matter.
Good day all, Tay.


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## sancho

@Taygibay

Nothing new in your post, the same old denials, but proper quoting can't be that hard or?


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## Major Shaitan Singh

Even Women can fly Rafale

http://api.dmcloud.net/player/pubpa...8d5111836c198864?wmode=transparent&autoplay=1

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## Major Shaitan Singh

Mica IR being loaded on the wing tip





Radar maintenance





Damocles visu





Weapon management MFD page





Various MFD pages (nav, fuel, HSI, spectra ?)





Cockpit in flight

*Tiger meet 2013, new camo*

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## Taygibay

Indian MMRCA Bill Balloons To $17 Billion

Good day all, Tay.


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## Kloitra

Taygibay said:


> Indian MMRCA Bill Balloons To $17 Billion
> 
> Good day all, Tay.



Doesn't makes sense. How is the price going to rise in dollars, even if INR falls?


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## Dillinger

Kloitra said:


> Doesn't makes sense. How is the price going to rise in dollars, even if INR falls?



Hypothesis based on depreciation in rupee value. Poorly stated, the real monetary value of the deal may go up. IF one dollar becomes equal to 65 rupees then the value of the deal may soar to 17 billion dollars, no sweat, 4-5 billion dollars more is not a big deal, let other lesser nations sweat over such issues. NOT to mention it banks on the fact that the rupee would have to fall so low.


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## Kloitra

Dillinger said:


> Hypothesis based on depreciation in rupee value. Poorly stated, the real monetary value of the deal may go up. IF one dollar becomes equal to 65 rupees then the value of the deal may soar to 17 billion dollars, no sweat, 4-5 billion dollars more is not a big deal, let other lesser nations sweat over such issues. NOT to mention it banks on the fact that the rupee would have to fall so low.



No. Price is fixed in dollars. Even if rupee goes down, price would increase in Rs and not in dollars. Assuming that Dasault doesn't increases the price, the dollar value would remain the same.


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## Dillinger

Kloitra said:


> No. Price is fixed in dollars. Even if rupee goes down, price would increase in Rs and not in dollars. Assuming that Dasault doesn't increases the price, the dollar value would remain the same.



As I said its all hypothetical and poorly stated.


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## Kloitra

Major Shaitan Singh said:


> Even Women can fly Rafale



They can fly alright. What happens when they attempt to park it?


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## Kloitra

Dillinger said:


> As I said its all hypothetical and poorly stated.



Poorly stated is an understatement. It is utterly wrong. Rupee vs dollar has nothing to do with the deal price in dollars. Nether the author of this article, nor the folks at idrw used their brains. Besides, the additional burden due to INR fall would not affect so much as most of the spending and assembling would be done in India itself, meaning trading in INR.

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## Kloitra

Double post


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## Major Shaitan Singh

*Operation Serval: situation update on 11 July 2013*

Over the past few days, air operations continued with some 70 sorties mainly devoted to land operation CAS with 25 sorties for the Mirage 2000 D based in Bamako or the Rafale in N'Djamena, Tchad. Some 20 sorties were dedicated to refuelling and intelligence missions, and 25 to transport missions. 3 C160s left the theatre this week.[...]

Operation Serval: situation update on 11 July 2013


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## ejaz007

*Indian AF Official Removed After Dassault Bribery Charge*


NEW DELHI &#8212; Following complaints from an official of France&#8217;s Dassault, which is the preferred vendor in the $11 billion Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) program, an Indian Air Force official was dismissed from service today.

Air Force Wing Commander A.K. Thakur allegedly demanded a bribe from a Dassault executive in the Aero India show at Bangalore in 2011. Court-martial proceedings against the official confirmed the charge leveled by the Dassault official, said Indian Air Force sources.

Thakur was accused of demanding a bribe for allotting an advantageous position for the Rafale in the static aircraft display section.

Rafale is the preferred aircraft in the MMRCA program and talks are now in the contract negotiation stage. The MMRCA program was floated globally in 2007, and the contract has still not been inked.

While the dismissal of the Air Force official is unlikely to affect the outcome of the negotiations, Air Force sources said the incident created bitterness among some service officials toward the French company.


Indian AF Official Removed After Dassault Bribery Charge | Defense News | defensenews.com


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## Abingdonboy



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## SpArK

*India, France to discuss Rs 80,000 cr worth defence deals*


Wednesday, July 24, 2013

New Delhi: Deals expected to be worth over Rs 80,000 crore including supply of 126 Rafale combat aircraft are likely to be high on agenda of French Defence Minister Jaen Yves Le Drian during his three-day visit to India from Friday.



India and France have been busy in negotiating the 126 combat aircraft deal for which the French combat aircraft was selected last year defeating its five other European and American rivals and over Rs 30,000 crore Maitri surface-to-air missile projects. 

During the visit of the French Minister, the two sides are expected to discuss the two deals in his meetings with Defence Minister A K Antony and other senior military leadership along with ways of strengthening bilateral ties, Ministry officials said here. 

The militaries of the two countries have close ties and hold regular exercises with each other. The Indian Army will be visiting a French military base in September for a company-level exercise, they said. 

*The French Minister will also visit the Gwalior-based Maharajpur airbase, which is home to the French origin Mirage 2000 aircraft. 
*
The Rafale aircraft deal, which is expected to be worth over Rs 50,000 crore, has been moving at its natural pace and had seen hiccups when the French side asked the Defence Ministry to define the role of HAL. 

The deal is not expected to be finalised before the end of this year, officials said. 

In the recent times, France has been awarded several key tenders by India including the supply of six Scorpene submarines to the Navy and the multi-billion dollar 126 combat aircraft deal. 

The contract worth over Rs 11,000 crore for upgrading the fleet of Mirage 2000 aircraft was also awarded to French firm Dassault Aviation. 

PTI


India, France to discuss Rs 80,000 cr worth defence deals

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## Abingdonboy

SpArK said:


> *India, France to discuss Rs 80,000 cr worth defence deals*
> 
> 
> Wednesday, July 24, 2013
> 
> New Delhi: Deals expected to be worth over Rs 80,000 crore including supply of 126 Rafale combat aircraft are likely to be high on agenda of French Defence Minister Jaen Yves Le Drian during his three-day visit to India from Friday.
> 
> 
> 
> India and France have been busy in negotiating the 126 combat aircraft deal for which the French combat aircraft was selected last year defeating its five other European and American rivals and over Rs 30,000 crore Maitri surface-to-air missile projects.
> 
> During the visit of the French Minister, the two sides are expected to discuss the two deals in his meetings with Defence Minister A K Antony and other senior military leadership along with ways of strengthening bilateral ties, Ministry officials said here.
> 
> The militaries of the two countries have close ties and hold regular exercises with each other. The Indian Army will be visiting a French military base in September for a company-level exercise, they said.
> 
> *The French Minister will also visit the Gwalior-based Maharajpur airbase, which is home to the French origin Mirage 2000 aircraft.
> *
> The Rafale aircraft deal, which is expected to be worth over Rs 50,000 crore, has been moving at its natural pace and had seen hiccups when the French side asked the Defence Ministry to define the role of HAL.
> 
> The deal is not expected to be finalised before the end of this year, officials said.
> 
> In the recent times, France has been awarded several key tenders by India including the supply of six Scorpene submarines to the Navy and the multi-billion dollar 126 combat aircraft deal.
> 
> The contract worth over Rs 11,000 crore for upgrading the fleet of Mirage 2000 aircraft was also awarded to French firm Dassault Aviation.
> 
> PTI
> 
> 
> India, France to discuss Rs 80,000 cr worth defence deals



"The deal is not expected to be signed before the end if this year"??!!!

Say it isn't so!!!!!!!!!!!


Despite EVERYONE from the IAF brass to MoD officials, Dassualt CEOs and French ambassadors saying the deal is looking likely to be signed by Sept/Oct 2013- now THIS news???



God damn I hope this isn't true, signing in 2014 means not until AFTER general elections so a projected delivery of late 2017 at the very EARLIEST. 



FFS!


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## SQ8

Abingdonboy said:


> "The deal is not expected to be signed before the end if this year"??!!!
> 
> Say it isn't so!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> 
> Despite EVERYONE from the IAF brass to MoD officials, Dassualt CEOs and French ambassadors saying the deal is looking likely to be signed by Sept/Oct 2013- now THIS news???
> 
> 
> 
> God damn I hope this isn't true, signing in 2014 means not until AFTER general elections so a projected delivery of late 2017 at the very EARLIEST.
> 
> 
> 
> FFS!



Dont you just love bureaucracy?

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## Abingdonboy

Oscar said:


> Dont you just love bureaucracy?



SO MUCH . 


To be fair, I can understand the time scales in this case as this deal is as complex as they come but it is still annoying from a fanboy POV. 


I'm still holding out hope that the deal will be signed in Sept/Oct 2013 as this is what all the key parties have said to date and this new peoce of info is complety unsubstantiated.


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## SQ8

Abingdonboy said:


> SO MUCH .
> 
> 
> To be fair, I can understand the time scales in this case as this deal is as complex as they come but it is still annoying from a fanboy POV.
> 
> 
> I'm still holding out hope that the deal will be signed in Sept/Oct 2013 as this is what all the key parties have said to date and this new peoce of info is complety unsubstantiated.



How will that signing reflect on electoral politics?


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## Abingdonboy

Oscar said:


> How will that signing reflect on electoral politics?



I doubt it will have any effect at all- not even 0.00000000000001%. But AFAIK in the run up to elections the Indian electoral commission implement spending restrictions on the govt so that any big deals in any area (defence or civilian) cannot be signed until after this ban is lifted by the electoral commission post general elections. 


There is a name for this but my memory is failing me right now sir. I'm sure some other member will help is out in his regard soon enough.


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## satishkumarcsc

Abingdonboy said:


> I doubt it will have any effect at all- not even 0.00000000000001%. But AFAIK in the run up to elections the Indian electoral commission implement spending restrictions on the govt so that any big deals in any area (defence or civilian) cannot be signed until after this ban is lifted by the electoral commission post general elections.
> 
> 
> There is a name for this but my memory is failing me right now sir. I'm sure some other member will help is out in his regard soon enough.



I think the Republic day chief guest is going to be the French President. If that happens then the deal is going to be signed next year only.


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## Abingdonboy

satishkumarcsc said:


> I think the Republic day chief guest is going to be the French President. If that happens then the deal is going to be signed next year only.



How does the French president being the Cheif guest for the 2014 republic day parade have anything to do with the date of the signing of the MMRCA contract sir? I don't see any correlation.


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## Kloitra

Abingdonboy said:


> I doubt it will have any effect at all- not even 0.00000000000001%. But AFAIK in the run up to elections the Indian electoral commission implement spending restrictions on the govt so that any big deals in any area (defence or civilian) cannot be signed until after this ban is lifted by the electoral commission post general elections.



Since the funds have been freezed, it should not be a problem. Besides, govt should get away with defence deals as they can show them to be of urgent needs.


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## Abingdonboy

Kloitra said:


> Since the funds have been freezed, it should not be a problem. Besides, govt should get away with defence deals as they can show them to be of urgent needs.



We'll see sir. The closer it gets to silly season (general elections) the less hope I have of this deal being signed anytime soon.


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## satishkumarcsc

Abingdonboy said:


> How does the French president being the Cheif guest for the 2014 republic day parade have anything to do with the date of the signing of the MMRCA contract sir? I don't see any correlation.



With such a big deal even the French government will need some publicity stunts. This will add to a lot of media hype.


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## Abingdonboy

satishkumarcsc said:


> With such a big deal even the French government will need some publicity stunts. This will add to a lot of media hype.



I see that but I don't see how this attendance means it will be signed "next year only" this could easily mean the deal is signed in late 2013. Maybe he'll even bring a couple of these beauts with him to do a fly past in the parade?


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## Kloitra

Abingdonboy said:


> We'll see sir. The closer it gets to silly season (general elections) the less hope I have of this deal being signed anytime soon.



If the deal is delayed, I would still like to blame incompetence than elections. 



satishkumarcsc said:


> With such a big deal even the French government will need some publicity stunts. This will add to a lot of media hype.



Didn't help Sarkozy in elections. What good would it do now?


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## satishkumarcsc

Kloitra said:


> If the deal is delayed, I would still like to blame incompetence than elections.
> 
> 
> 
> Didn't help Sarkozy in elections. What good would it do now?



Still it is election propaganda. He did mention the Mirage 2000 deal.


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## Abingdonboy

Kloitra said:


> Didn't help Sarkozy in elections. What good would it do now?



The Rafale deal to India would be HUGE for any incumbent president in France. The first export sale of the French bird, huge figures, some employment benifits at home (limited in the Indian deal). One can it underestimate how well this would go down in France. 


The m2k upgrade deal was/is small fry in comparison.


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## Kloitra

Abingdonboy said:


> The Rafale deal to India would be HUGE for any incumbent president in France. The first export sale of the French bird, huge figures, some employment benifits at home (limited in the Indian deal). One can it underestimate how well this would go down in France.



I was talking about Rafale. Before the election it was chosen as L1, pretty much the winner. Now it has been going on for so long that instead of a sudden pleasant surprise, they would have a breath of relief, few, finally!


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## Abingdonboy

Kloitra said:


> I was talking about Rafale. Before the election it was chosen as L1, pretty much the winner. Now it has been going on for so long that instead of a sudden pleasant surprise, they would have a breath of relief, few, finally!



Right, if the deal actually fell through there'd be HUGE poltical backlash.


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## indiatester

*France says India fighter jet deal negotiations going well*
*
NEW DELHI | Fri Jul 26, 2013 4:57pm IST
*
*(Reuters) - France's defence minister said on Friday negotiations with India to sell 126 Rafale fighter jets from Dassault Aviation (AVMD.PA) were proceeding well, but did not say when the deal would be finalized.*
India picked the Rafale for exclusive negotiations in January 2012 after a hotly contested bidding war between rival suppliers. But differences over the industrial role of state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd has delayed the deal.

French Defense Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian told reporters he was not concerned about the delay.

Under the deal, Dassault is expected to send 18 ready-made jets, then manufacture the rest in India. Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) will be company's lead partner in the process.

Dassault had earlier expressed doubts about the technological capability of HAL to manufacture such a sophisticated fighter jet.

(Reporting by Anurag Kotoky; Editing by Sanjeev Miglani)


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## Abingdonboy



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## shree835

*France cuts Rafale orders, pushes for MMRCA*

While negotiations for the MMRCA trudge on in what France is hoping will be the final leg leading to a contract, the country has whittled down orders on the Dassault Rafale amidst pressure on public spending. Sources say that while contract negotiations are indeed in their final phase, there remain significant hurdles to cross before a draft contract agreement is drawn up. France is understood to have sought assurance from the Ministry of Defence (MoD) last month that the contract award would not slip into the next fiscal, but such an assurance was not extended, as there is no legal provision to do so.

All that A.K. Antony told his visiting French counterpart was that India was as keen as France about an early conclusion of the deal, since it was extremely important to the IAF. France&#8217;s Dassault has had no choice now, however, but to increase its exposure to exports. It&#8217;s other potential customers include Brazil, Qatar, UAE and Malaysia.

SOURCE: SP&#8217;s Special Correspondent


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## shanixee

how much price has increased after the depreciation of Indian currency. I remember it was 25000 crores in 2010..so how much is it now.??


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## halloweene

France didnt cut orders. In the original document it is clearly stated that deliveries are delayed "taking in account export orders". 11 planes per year is still contractual...


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## halloweene

Having lunch with Dassault Vice president the fourth. i will transmit sensible) questions i may not answer by myself, although do not expect revolutionary answers... Feel free to ask.

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## SRP

@he-man If you have any question regarding Rafale you can ask halloweene here.


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## he-man

desert warrior said:


> @he-man If you have any question regarding Rafale you can ask halloweene here.



no man i am convinced about abilities of rafale.............my point was only cost

if we can afford it,we should go ahead



halloweene said:


> Having lunch with Dassault Vice president the fourth. i will transmit sensible) questions i may not answer by myself, although do not expect revolutionary answers... Feel free to ask.



Man whats the price of the deal actually??media is giving vague figures

2)how much more advanced will be ddm-ng compared to ddm??

3)will the deal be signed in this fiscal year??

4)What comes under purview of tot?


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## Sri

halloweene said:


> Having lunch with Dassault Vice president the fourth. i will transmit sensible) questions i may not answer by myself, although do not expect revolutionary answers... Feel free to ask.



Hi Halloweene,
My query is --> 
1. Is the Indian Gov negotiating for 126 fighters or are we going for add-on 66 fighters in the initial order?
2. How is the pricing going to change with additional numbers? (If any)
3. What is the total price of this deal ( rough number like 10 billion Euros etc).
4. Are we getting full version or a scaled down version compared to french air force.
Thanks in Advance...


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## halloweene

DDM NG was first delivered for operational testing on Rafale C137 in october 2012. They and are now on serial planes. Of course, Tech specs are specified, but some photos were released.

h**p://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSACckvzQyFMIZ2JYW1_BRCAle_EkhioAWRHgDzD1NKxDP0rmtBlYUAastl

The only official statement we have is it is a "megapixel class" captor.

But if you read carefully flight test by Vianney Riller JR, check the sentence "using spectra AND passive sensors". (talking about his passive shooting in his 6). Btw, he tested a Rafale 04T . First delivery to operational squadron (after testings etc) due in October, a "B" version for 1/7 Sqd. Next deliveries will also be mainly B to replace 2000 N of 1/31 "Gascogne".

About signature, the very few outcomes i could have off the line were november to february. 

Price? I dont have any clue. I'm only former operational...

India will get more then full version, but a customized version. Initial RFP asked for a HMS, it is now official that there will be israeli stuff in indian rafales, that negociations are on the run to integrate an ARM missile (for K!h31, but unofficially sources also talk about Harpoon). We also know that Indian Rafales will have to built from scratch as they are very different to french ones. All in all, Indian rafales wont be downgraded, but "tweaked" for IN customer.

Rumours say there will be a short self defence missile, aswell as towed decoy. But these are rumours.

About ToT, it is the big issue atm. By issue i dont mean that their is no will for ToT, but one should realize that building a Rafale is 2/3 years long, indludes hundereds thousands parts and 500 subcontrators. Each indian counterpart from the two supplying lines (which was the real story abour RElainace, securing a secind private supply chain) must be audited in order to know when they will be able to supply each part, when, on which plane, with how much help. I wish you a good night.

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## he-man

halloweene said:


> DDM NG was first delivered for operational testing on Rafale C137 in october 2012. They and are now on serial planes. Of course, Tech specs are specified, but some photos were released.
> 
> h**p://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSACckvzQyFMIZ2JYW1_BRCAle_EkhioAWRHgDzD1NKxDP0rmtBlYUAastl
> 
> The only official statement we have is it is a "megapixel class" captor.
> 
> But if you read carefully flight test by Vianney Riller JR, check the sentence "using spectra AND passive sensors". (talking about his passive shooting in his 6). Btw, he tested a Rafale 04T . First delivery to operational squadron (after testings etc) due in October, a "B" version for 1/7 Sqd. Next deliveries will also be mainly B to replace 2000 N of 1/31 "Gascogne".
> 
> About signature, the very few outcomes i could have off the line were november to february.
> 
> Price? I dont have any clue. I'm only former operational...
> 
> India will get more then full version, but a customized version. Initial RFP asked for a HMS, it is now official that there will be israeli stuff in indian rafales, that negociations are on the run to integrate an ARM missile (for K!h31, but unofficially sources also talk about Harpoon). We also know that Indian Rafales will have to built from scratch as they are very different to french ones. All in all, Indian rafales wont be downgraded, but "tweaked" for IN customer.
> 
> Rumours say there will be a short self defence missile, aswell as towed decoy. But these are rumours.
> 
> About ToT, it is the big issue atm. By issue i dont mean that their is no will for ToT, but one should realize that building a Rafale is 2/3 years long, indludes hundereds thousands parts and 500 subcontrators. Each indian counterpart from the two supplying lines (which was the real story abour RElainace, securing a secind private supply chain) must be audited in order to know when they will be able to supply each part, when, on which plane, with how much help. I wish you a good night.



thanks man..........appreciated


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## SR-91

halloweene said:


> Having lunch with Dassault Vice president the fourth. i will transmit sensible) questions i may not answer by myself, although do not expect revolutionary answers... Feel free to ask.



This is nice of you.

I read on another forum that, Given the current situation IAF is in, Iaf now wants to Increase the number of Rafales being built in france by another 22(18+22).Is that true? If it is, what is the time frame?

Is there or Will there be a joint venture with India in its mid life upgrade?


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## he-man

SR-91 said:


> This is nice of you.
> 
> I read on another forum that, Given the current situation IAF is in, Iaf now wants to Increase the number of Rafales being built in france by another 22.Is that true? If it is, what is the time frame?



i think it would be far more sensible than HAL delaying things again


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## halloweene

I will try to know about the 22 more planes built in France, although knowing Dassault i doubt to have an answer. The MLUquestion is an excellent one i intented to try to dig in

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## Black Eagle 90

indiatester said:


> *France says India fighter jet deal negotiations going well*
> *
> NEW DELHI | Fri Jul 26, 2013 4:57pm IST
> *
> *(Reuters) - France's defence minister said on Friday negotiations with India to sell 126 Rafale fighter jets from Dassault Aviation (AVMD.PA) were proceeding well, but did not say when the deal would be finalized.*
> India picked the Rafale for exclusive negotiations in January 2012 after a hotly contested bidding war between rival suppliers. But differences over the industrial role of state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd has delayed the deal.
> 
> French Defense Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian told reporters he was not concerned about the delay.
> 
> Under the deal, Dassault is expected to send 18 ready-made jets, then manufacture the rest in India. Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) will be company's lead partner in the process.
> 
> Dassault had earlier expressed doubts about the technological capability of HAL to manufacture such a sophisticated fighter jet.
> 
> (Reporting by Anurag Kotoky; Editing by Sanjeev Miglani)



So how many Rafael???


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## indiatester

Black Eagle 90 said:


> So how many Rafael???



126 in total IIRC


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## halloweene

Very important issue (to me), unnoticed from DGA head L. Collet-Billon about propective in DSI special issue n°31, p 24 : "miniature antennas, conformal, agile and highly directive"

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## SR-91

halloweene said:


> I will try to know about the 22 more planes built in France, although knowing Dassault i doubt to have an answer. The MLUquestion is an excellent one i intented to try to dig in



Thx.

Additional numbers also being built by Dassault also coincides with slow down in France AF numbers being built.

Dassault gets to keep all of their assembly line open with this additional numbers coming from India.

I also believe this was the reason for recent visit of Defence Minister to India.


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## Abingdonboy

@halloweene 

A few questions from me:

1) when are Dassualt projecting this deal will be signed? This fiscal or FY2014-15?


2) what HMDS are Dassualt looking to integrate onto the Rafale for the IAF? The TopSighht?


3) how comprehensive will the support package Dassualt offer be? Are we talking everything down to the hangers and support vehicles or a more hands-off approach?

4) how hard are Dassualt now pushing for this deal and how much pressure are they feeling to sign it given the recent news about FrAf scaling back orders and perhaps the UAE and Brazil turning away from a possible Rafale sale.


5) will the version the IAF gets be based on the F3 or F3R standard? 


6) are Dassualt going to get HAL to sign up to the F4/future Rafale road map effort? 


7) how far has Dassualt got (if at all) in talks with the Indian Navy over posible Rafale-M sales to the IN and or have the IN expressed an interest in pushing for Dassualt to devlop the twin seat naval Rafale?


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## halloweene

Well, first of all excuse mistypes, im writing from mobile. About indian tweaks on indian rafales, it will be difficult to get answers. I already 1sked at PAS 13, the answer was "when you sell a acar, you dont explain everyone which options where chosen by client". Apart from that, there are significant leaks now (and some lobbying i did to S. Fort in order to explain him that forumers do have a power in india) in order to expect some goodies. ALL updates till MLU are retrofitable (at least on french rafales). If i was to make a bet, id say litening pod, Aybe jhcms helmet. No clue.

Notre on the more serious MLU point, i dont see how india wouldnt be alreday aware!. CARAA, TRAGEDAC AND DEDIRA programs shoauld pprofit to india.

So basically indian rafales should have indian relative improvements from F3R, plusngoodies.
Support for full tot is the objective. Hard task. For example, Hal can biild hitech components, but dassault want them to be built with Their norms etc.

In rqfale wiml neither be f3r or f304t sta ndard. It will be in sta ndard and 7nany 9oints superior to f3r (former f4)

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## halloweene

Let me try to resume, you want to know if india will be co, sidered as a fullnpartner in the design of future versions, that, s it?

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## halloweene

In order to answer abzingdongboy, Dassault is dreaming of that1 market but not pushing as hard as french gov. And they will sign only if they are sure everythibng willngobfine, they do not want a scorpene2. They are very commited ti indian air forces...

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## he-man

halloweene said:


> In order to answer abzingdongboy, Dassault is dreaming of that1 market but not pushing as hard as french gov. And they will sign only if they are sure everythibng willngobfine, they do not want a scorpene2. They are very commited ti indian air forces...



i think dassault was pitching to open joint production in south korea,,,they never mentioned india as far as i remember


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## halloweene

Of course theyvwill, but main constructor will be HAL

You confuse with eads my friend


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## he-man

halloweene said:


> Of course theyvwill, but main constructor will be HAL
> 
> You confuse with eads my friend



So the reliance demand of dassault has been dropped??


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## halloweene

No, not at all. They are here to build a second supply chain. No less, no more . The rest was drama.


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## Abingdonboy

halloweene said:


> Well, first of all excuse mistypes, im writing from mobile. About indian tweaks on indian rafales, it will be difficult to get answers. I already 1sked at PAS 13, the answer was "when you sell a acar, you dont explain everyone which options where chosen by client". Apart from that, there are significant leaks now (and some lobbying i did to S. Fort in order to explain him that forumers do have a power in india) in order to expect some goodies. ALL updates till MLU are retrofitable (at least on french rafales). If i was to make a bet, id say litening pod, Aybe jhcms helmet. No clue.
> 
> Notre on the more serious MLU point, i dont see how india wouldnt be alreday aware!. CARAA, TRAGEDAC AND DEDIRA programs shoauld pprofit to india.
> 
> So basically indian rafales should have indian relative improvements from F3R, plusngoodies.
> Support for full tot is the objective. Hard task. For example, Hal can biild hitech components, but dassault want them to be built with Their norms etc.
> 
> In rqfale wiml neither be f3r or f304t sta ndard. It will be in sta ndard and 7nany 9oints superior to f3r (former f4)


Firstly thanks for the reply! And are you sure about JHMCS? I don't think the IAF would want this when the Mirage 2000 will have the TopSight-I and so does the Mig-29K and possibly even Super 30 MKIs and LCAs. 


halloweene said:


> Let me try to resume, you want to know if india will be co, sidered as a fullnpartner in the design of future versions, that, s it?


This is one of the questions I'd like answer to yes sir. How would India and the IAF fit into the Rafale's future road map?




halloweene said:


> In order to answer abzingdongboy, Dassault is dreaming of that1 market but not pushing as hard as french gov. And they will sign only if they are sure everythibng willngobfine, they do not want a scorpene2. They are very commited ti indian air forces...


Any estimates on this signing date sir?


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## he-man

Abingdonboy said:


> Firstly thanks for the reply! And are you sure about JHMCS? I don't think the IAF would want this when the Mirage 2000 will have the TopSight-I and so does the Mig-29K and possibly even Super 30 MKIs and LCAs.
> 
> This is one of the questions I'd like answer to yes sir. How would India and the IAF fit into the Rafale's future road map?
> 
> 
> 
> Any estimates on this signing date sir?



he already told november to march is probable but nothing concrete yet


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## Black Eagle 90

indiatester said:


> 126 in total IIRC



Heard sometime ago that there would be 200+ Rafaels and IAF is not satisfied with HAL and wants directly from France.


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## SRP

@Jungibaaz @Aeronaut @nuclearpak @Oscar @Zakii @Awesome Sir, can't you do something about this @Black Eagle 90 ?

It is very irritating to read his foolish posts in every thread. He has a big shopping basket. Asking the same questions after given the answer 100's of time.

Is this a new way of trolling and get away from banning?

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## he-man

desert warrior said:


> @Jungibaaz @Aeronaut @nuclearpak @Oscar @Zakii @Awesome Sir, can't you do something about this @Black Eagle 90 ?
> 
> It is very irritating to read his foolish posts in every thread. He has a big shopping basket. Asking the same questions after given the answer 100's of time.
> 
> Is this a new way of trolling and get away from banning?



The most hopeful guy i have ever seen


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## SRP

he-man said:


> The most hopeful guy i have ever seen



No he is not hopeful. He just found a new way of trolling and get away from banning.


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## Black Eagle 90

he-man said:


> The most hopeful guy i have ever seen



Always be hopeful for good. People who doesn't have hope loses everything....

IAF might also lacks in this regards too.

Ban me if you want to.

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## he-man

Black Eagle 90 said:


> Always be hopeful for good. People who doesn't have hope loses everything....
> 
> IAF might also lacks in this regards too.
> 
> Ban me if you want to.



i like ur enthusiasm man...............anyways u don't insult anyone so whats the problem?


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## SRP

he-man said:


> i like ur enthusiasm man...............anyways u don't insult anyone so whats the problem?



It is not about insulting someone. He is posting craps and giving headaches to all members. Always trying to derail the thread by asking some foolish questions which he had been answered no less than hundred times for each questions.


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## he-man

desert warrior said:


> It is not about insulting someone. He is posting craps and giving headaches to all members. Always trying to derail the thread by asking some foolish questions which he had been answered no less than hundred times for each questions.



but he is pro IAF at least


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## SRP

he-man said:


> but he is pro IAF at least



What pro IAF ? He is asking the same question in every section of PDF not only in Indian defence section. 

If navy inducts a destroyer his question is India needs to induct 10 more of this. If army inducts a rifle his question is India should by this 100000000000 numbers. WTF is this?


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## DANGER-ZONE

desert warrior said:


> What pro IAF ? He is asking the same question in every section of PDF not only in Indian defence section.
> 
> If navy inducts a destroyer his question is India needs to induct 10 more of this. If army inducts a rifle his question is India should by this 100000000000 numbers. WTF is this?



Checkout the topic and the comment from bhai ... its epic.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian...efire-poonch-sector-india-re.html#post4723169



> India and Pak should talk on cease fire.... as India needs to build force along China border.
> 
> *Also does India looking to buy USA made Air Defence...???*

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## he-man

DANGER-ZONE said:


> Checkout the topic and the comment from bhai ... its epic.
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian...efire-poonch-sector-india-re.html#post4723169



i am a fan of this guy


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## surya kiran

halloweene said:


> Having lunch with Dassault Vice president the fourth. i will transmit sensible) questions i may not answer by myself, although do not expect revolutionary answers... Feel free to ask.



1. Is there any talks about working with the Indians on the UCAV/nEURon?
2. Has there been any presentation or discussion with the IN regarding the Rafale-M?
3. Is Dassault still pitching for the IN requirement of the Maritime Patrol aircraft?


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## indiatester

Black Eagle 90 said:


> Heard sometime ago that there would be 200+ Rafaels and IAF is not satisfied with HAL and wants directly from France.



The contract was for 126 aircraft with a possible follow on of 64 aircraft.


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## he-man

indiatester said:


> The contract was for 126 aircraft with a possible follow on of 64 aircraft.



63 not 64

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## Black Eagle 90

What so ever. IAF will have 200 MMRCA

any news about MiG-21s condition....

Will you people see a war with Pakistan and China near future...


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## indiatester

he-man said:


> 63 not 64



What did you do to the one Rafale man? You cannot say, truck just delivered 63 not 64

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## halloweene

No im not sure about jhcms. Just trying to guess what would be the israeli content. But im positive that there werent any talks about neuron. (Asked to a dassault executive at pas13).

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## halloweene

Very few answers as expected, but off the line, rafale price is 80-85 Meuros and it would be idustriqlly stupid to plan 2 diff mlus


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## proud_indian

halloweene said:


> Very few answers as expected, but off the line, rafale price is 80-85 Meuros and it would be idustriqlly stupid to plan 2 diff mlus



If what u r saying is true then this deal will cost us 14 billion dollor approx
In indian currency about 95000 crore rs.


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## halloweene

I do not know, so many things to be taken acount...And you would pay in euros. The main feeling i had is "we dont try to trick 60 years old clients". The other one (but i told you), thehardest part is ToT, not so on sharing, but on ramping up indian income in houndreds of societies. Recently, CEO said it may be wrapped this uear. Lets hope.

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## Abingdonboy

halloweene said:


> Very few answers as expected, but off the line, rafale price is 80-85 Meuros and it would be idustriqlly stupid to plan 2 diff mlus



Are there any other details you can share with us sir?


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## halloweene

Not a lot. Contender responsability over HAL built planeswasnt in RFP. The separate contractswere a proposal from Dassault so as to fasten Rafale induction in IAF while keeping building the industrial meccano. Rebuttal is understandable. Ppl worked all summer long. Had no official confirmation, but a nod at IR channel for OSF, short range sellf defence missile, HMD and towed decoy.

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## halloweene

Oh btw had the confirmation that the orders arent cut and 11/year delivery still contractual. The "build from scratch" indian Rafales i had read in press is untrue. There are differences but not to that point.

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## Abingdonboy

halloweene said:


> Oh btw had the confirmation that the orders arent cut and 11/year delivery still contractual. The "build from scratch" indian Rafales i had read in press is untrue. There are differences but not to that point.



Any idea if Dassualt plan to "fast track" the first lot of Indian Rafales? I know under the RFP the first deliveries just begin within 36 months of the deal being signed so we are looking at 2016-17 deliveres for the first lot if the deal is signed relatively soon. Any ideas whether Dassualt either plans on delivering sooner or the IAF/MoD has expressed a desire for earlier inductions? 


Also, did you get any information about the Indian Navy's N-MMRCA deal? Are Dassualt in talks with the IN over the Rafale-M?


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## SR-91

halloweene said:


> Oh btw had the confirmation that the orders arent cut and 11/year delivery still contractual. The "build from scratch" indian Rafales i had read in press is untrue. There are differences but not to that point.



Any news regarding how many more Rafales to be built in France,if any? thx in adv.


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## halloweene

Only the first 18, there wasnt any request from india to have more built in France, dunno if legally possible with mmrca rules.

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## SR-91

There goes our dream for quicker induction


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## halloweene

Combat Aircraft &#8207;@CombatAir 1 h
Reports coming from UAE suggest that @Dassault_OnAir is looking to integrate Tactical Missile Corp. Kh-31, R-73 and RVV-AE on the #Rafale&#8230;
Ouvrir Répondre Retweeter Favori Plus
yves pagot &#8207;@emouchet2 1 h
@CombatAir Are you sure these reports arent directly from Russia? (thought so)
Ouvrir
Combat Aircraft &#8207;@CombatAir 1 h
@emouchet2 No, not directly. Began with rumor about UAE interest in Kh-31, in UAE press.
Réduire Répondre Retweeter Favori Plus
9:43 AM - 6 Sept, 13 · Détails


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## halloweene

Frrom a former head engineer (weapons systems) at Dassault and EADS on IDF...

F 35 JSF v/s Dassault Rafale

Due to the MMRCA program the merits of Eurofighter Typhoon v / s Dassault Rafale was discussed at length on this site,. These two aircrafts represent the most advanced technology of Europe in this field. They are technically equal but meet different operational requirements.

The problem for the Typhoon is that the French are the only ones who have identified needs that correspond to the 21th century.

Typhoon is a very good plane that filled its specifications but now it must evolve to the specifications of the Rafale.

To facilitate the export of the aircraft, the program partners want to make believe this is easy. But if it was easy, French would not have left the program, they would have managed to get a satisfactory compromise.

From my point of view, F 35 JSF and Rafale meet closer needs, with similar technology, but with different doctrines of use. Their comparison therefore seems very interesting.

Joint Strike Fighter Stealth Capabilities

This paragraph comes mainly from: Assessing Joint Strike Fighter Defence Penetration Capabilities

The Joint Strike Fighter is an unusual airframe design, since it departs from many of the well established ground rules in stealth shaping, established in other designs such as the F-117A, B-2A, A-12A, YF-23A and F-22A Raptor. Stealth shaping is widely regarded to account for the first hundredfold reduction in aircraft radar signature, compared to non-stealthy designs of similar size, with application of lossy and absorbent materials used to further reduce the signature where feasible.

The first major departure from established shaping conventions is the angular or aspect dependency of the Joint Strike Fighters radar signature.




Diagram 3.




Diagram 4.

Diagram 4 summarises the qualitative comparisons of Joint Strike Fighter shaping aspect and band dependency, with green denoting performance which qualifies as Very Low Observable, yellow as Low Observable, and red as order of magnitude closest to conventional reduced signature aircraft designs. The aircraft performs best in the X-band, and Ku-band, with performance declining through the S-band with increasing wavelength. In the L-band the axisymmetric nozzle design no longer produces useful effect, and the length of the inlet edges sits in resonant mode scattering rather than clean optical scattering, degrading performance. In the VHF band (~2 metres) Joint Strike Fighter airframe shaping has become largely ineffective. 

The aircraft will have a credible ability to defeat S-band search/acquisition radars, X-band engagement radars and X/Ku/K/Ka-band missile seekers only in the narrow ±14.5° angular sector under the nose. As the angle relative to the threat radars increases, the unfortunate lower fuselage shaping features will produce an increasingly strong effect with a cluster of flare spot peaks around 90° where the longitudinal panel and door edge joins produce effect. 

In the narrow ±14.5° angular sector under the tail, the design will produce best effect against X/Ku/K/Ka-band missile seekers, but less useful effect against X-band engagement radars due to their higher power-aperture performance. At S-band the nozzle exterior signature will become increasingly prominent, leading to loss of effect in the vicinity of the L-band. 

It is clear that these design choices were intentional and no accident. By confining proper stealth shaping technique only to the forward fuselage and inlet geometry, the designers avoided incurring the development, and to a lesser extent, the associated manufacturing costs of a fully stealthy design, with the YF-23A and F-22A presenting good comparisons. 

This is an acceptable optimization if the intent is only to defeat an isolated individual low power aperture pop-up short/medium range mobile battlefield air defence system in the category of the SA-6 Gainful, SA-8 Gecko, SA-9 Gaskin, Chapparel, Crotale, Roland, SA-11 Gadfly, SA-15 Gauntlet, SA-19 Grison or SA-22 Greyhound. It is a completely unsuitable optimization for a wide range of other threat types which are in service, and the associated characteristic engagement geometries. It is also a problematic optimisation where short/medium range battlefield air defence systems are deployed in a coordinated manner. 

The most generous description of the stealth design used in the Joint Strike Fighter is that it is 25% VLO, in the nose sector, 25% LO in the tail sector, and 50% reduced observable in the beam sectors, with a strong threat operating frequency and angular aspect dependency in stealth performance. It is clearly not a stealth design in the same sense as the F-117A Nighthawk, B-2A Spirit, YF-23A and F-22A Raptor, and to label it a VLO design is at best a quarter-truth, quite indifferent to the physical realities of the design and the threat systems it will need to defeat in future conflicts.

LM declares the RCS of F35 the size of "Golf ball size" (about 0.0015 m2) in 2000 (now it may be around 0.005m2, because LM has done lots of downgrading to reduce the cost). 

Rafale Stealth Capabilities

Dassault reject the fourth-generation label and assert that, while Rafale fighter does not match the F-35's stealth, it can rival its effectiveness and survivability at a competitive cost.

To achieve this goal Dassault combine four factors:

	RCS reduction of the most reflective parts of the structure
	Development of passive detections
	EW suite capable of jamming and decoying
	Terrain following system

Development of passive detections and EW suite will be seen in the corresponding paragraphs in order to compare with F35.

RCS

The minimal RCS of Rafale, according to Dassault engineer (1/10~1/20 of Mirage-2000's frontal RCS), should be 0.05 to 0.1 m2 class.

Gripen was declared by Saab 1/5 of the frontal RCS of F/A-18 C/D, 1/3 of the frontal RCS of F-16 C/D block40/42, and 1/2 of the frontal RCS of the MIRAGE-2000". Or F-16 C/D block40/42 RCS is 1.2m2 which translate in 0.4m2 for Gripen, 0.8 m2 for MIRAGE-2000 and 0.08m2>Rafale>0.04m2.

The best estimate for Rafale seems to be 0.06 m2 with a max error of 0.02 m2. This is 10 times bigger than F 35 which gives a detection range roughly 2 times bigger for radar with the same performance.

Composite materials use

Rafale makes extensive use of radar-absorbent material (RAM) in the form of paints and other materials. RAM forms a saw-toothed pattern on the wing and canard trailing edges, for instance. The aircraft is designed to, so that its untreated radar signature is concentrated in a few strong "spikes," which are then suppressed by the selective use of RAM.
Rafale use a high amount of composite materials like you can see here: 


Titane blue, Kelvar green, Composite Orange

In fact, 75% of Rafale surface structure and 30% of its mass are made of composites. 

Besides, the high amount of composites and RAM materials, ducted air intakes, Rafale also has a sawtooth design feature all over the airframe and even in the air intakes. These sawtooth are made of RAM materials and meant to scatter and absorb radar waves: 



All stealth fighters beginning with the F117 used similar sawtooth design features with the same aim of scattering the radar waves and to reduce the RCS.

Terrain following system

The Rafale is fitted with a multisensory terrain-following system operating at the pilot's choice from the radar or from a digital terrain database: the RBE2 radar can detect even unreported obstruction and the digital terrain database does away with telltale emissions where total covertness is required. 

There is also a radar altimeter available in nap-of-the-earth flight over water or flat land. Data fusion is part of the system to cross-check the sensors before feeding their data to a flight path computation module whose development has been carried out per the exacting standards of safety-critical engineering. 

The relevant expertise does not come overnight and actually builds on the lessons learned of the Mirage 2000N and D in service with the French Air Force. 

The terrain-following function integrated with the Rafale's flight control system actually flies the aircraft closer to the ground or the sea than would be reasonable for the crew flying in manual mode - and it does so with a demonstrated safety level even in blind weather. Rafale is designed to fly a terrain-avoidance/threat- avoidance profile at 5.5 g and 100 feet in altitude. (http://weapons.technology.youngester...of-set-of.html)

It remains a valuable help to the crew even when flying higher above ground level, allowing them to concentrate on other mission tasks without the burden -and energy consuming anxiety - of maintaining terrain clearance during hi-speed/low-altitude legs. 

With its high thrust and low wing-loading, the Rafale is equally at ease flying at treetop height: its aerodynamics - delta wing and canards - is ideal for low-level agility and ride quality, and its canard fore-planes do not block downward visibility. Flying low and fast in the clouds then becomes a real option: high altitude SAMs are no longer an issue since you fly under the radar coverage, and short range optically-guided air defences are powerless against a foe they cannot see.

Other short range air defence systems can be dealt with by the Spectra EW suite capable of jamming and decoying. Speed is part of the game too, since air defence engagement zones are dramatically reduced against transonic targets, even in clear weather.

Source: http://www.******************/forum...35-jsf-v-s-dassault-rafale.html#ixzz2eNt7gyla


Figures are in cluded in the original post.

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## halloweene

Unnoticed in a recent interview of Mr Collet-Billon , head of DGA (french procurement agency) : financed plans for small agile conformal antennas...


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## halloweene

Mission satisfaction: Rafale offers proven capability | Vanguard Magazine

Interetsting commercial pitches from being and dassault on canadian defense site


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## halloweene

Finally a relialable coph number for Rafale, but during high intensity operations over Mali : 14000 euros. Cheaper in peace time....


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## [Bregs]

If this deal is not done in next 3 weeks or so then its off till after next elections


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## he-man

[Bregs];4763208 said:


> If this deal is not done in next 3 weeks or so then its off till after next elections



reason??
internal news??


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## [Bregs]

he-man said:


> reason??
> internal news??



No inside news but open situation is that UPA govt. will like this to be wrapped as early as possible, if delayed or any news of red tape came in when elections are near this they would avoid at any cost

Recent delay is because of some life cycle cost issue raised by yashwant sinha and Antony as usual has sent it back to the defense purchase committee for analysis so all the calculators and huge figures are back to be calculated

The more time passes the more difficult it will be to sign this deal by this govt.

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## Abingdonboy

[Bregs];4763256 said:


> No inside news but open situation is that UPA govt. will like this to be wrapped as early as possible, if delayed or any news of red tape came in when elections are near this they would avoid at any cost
> 
> Recent delay is because of some life cycle cost issue raised by yashwant sinha and Antony as usual has sent it back to the defense purchase committee for analysis so all the calculators and huge figures are back to be calculated
> 
> The more time passes the more difficult it will be to sign this deal by this govt.





he-man said:


> reason??
> internal news??


Isn't it an official restriction imposed by the election commission? I forget the name


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## [Bregs]

Abingdonboy said:


> Isn't it an official restriction imposed by the election commission? I forget the name



bro that's elections code of conduct comes hardly 60 days days or so before elections


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## he-man

Abingdonboy said:


> Isn't it an official restriction imposed by the election commission? I forget the name



nope..........bregs is right


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## Abingdonboy

[Bregs];4763579 said:


> bro that's elections code of conduct comes hardly 60 days days or so before elections



Thanks, that was it- the "code of conduct"


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## he-man

Abingdonboy said:


> Thanks, that was it- the "code of conduct"



as if anything of that sort is understood by indian politicians


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## rockstarIN

[Bregs];4763579 said:


> bro that's elections code of conduct comes hardly 60 days days or so before elections



Even if they announce earlier, it will be a big news and given the scandal news all over even in defense(helo deal) mostly it will go like how it happened in Brazil.

All blames will go to Dassault, the negotiations should have been finished much earlier.

After 2014 elections, the new govt. might give more importance to indigenous stuff. Modi(if) already indicated the same.


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## he-man

rockstarIN said:


> Even if they announce earlier, it will be a big news and given the scandal news all over even in defense(helo deal) mostly it will go like how it happened in Brazil.
> 
> All blames will go to Dassault, the negotiations should have been finished much earlier.
> 
> After 2014 elections, the new govt. might give more importance to indigenous stuff. Modi(if) already indicated the same.



yup,,,,,anything is possible if deal is not signed soon


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## agni 6

French are not very reliable nowadays like before especially after our oppositon to war in syria.What happens if things go the way of scorpene.We must have a back up plan.


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## SRP

agni 6 said:


> French are not very reliable nowadays like before especially after our oppositon to war in syria.What happens if things go the way of scorpene.We must have a back up plan.



French are very reliable. French provided all the tech's but if our public shipyard MDL did not able to absorb the technology what French can do about it.

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## he-man

desert warrior said:


> French are very reliable. French provided all the tech's but if our public shipyard MDL did not able to absorb the technology what French can do about it.



who knows what happens behind the scene yaar

although our chai-biscuit organizations are the ones to be blamed in most of the cases


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## SRP

he-man said:


> who knows what happens behind the scene yaar
> 
> although our chai-biscuit organizations are the ones to be blamed in most of the cases



It is well known fact that MDL sucks. They did not able to receive the tech.


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## [Bregs]

rockstarIN said:


> Even if they announce earlier, it will be a big news and given the scandal news all over even in defense(helo deal) mostly it will go like how it happened in Brazil.
> 
> All blames will go to Dassault, the negotiations should have been finished much earlier.
> 
> After 2014 elections, the new govt. might give more importance to indigenous stuff. Modi(if) already indicated the same.



New govt will give preference to indigenous right ! but do India has potential to produce a fighter equivalent or any where near to Rafale , they have not been able to produce mki tejas as yet


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## halloweene

Few things about situation here (in France). Dassault isnt France and the reverse. Dassault will sign if and only if they are sure about the contract will go smoothly."You don't mess with a 60 years old client" is the sentence i heard. Whatever could be pressures from governments (happened once in UAE, another story). I'm fairly optimistic, as (i) India do need this contract. (ii) Francedo need this contract. (iii) Dassault andHAL do want this contract. (v) It's a win win situation. So it may be delayed by a reason or another, but will happen (my guess is december, but i have no more insights then you guys do)

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## he-man

halloweene said:


> Few things about situation here (in France). Dassault isnt France and the reverse. Dassault will sign if and only if they are sure about the contract will go smoothly."You don't mess with a 60 years old client" is the sentence i heard. Whatever could be pressures from governments (happened once in UAE, another story). I'm fairly optimistic, as (i) India do need this contract. (ii) Francedo need this contract. (iii) Dassault andHAL do want this contract. (v) It's a win win situation. So it may be delayed by a reason or another, but will happen (my guess is december, but i have no more insights then you guys do)



mate india will get something else if not rafale,,,,dassault has to understand this.


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## Abingdonboy

he-man said:


> mate india will get something else if not rafale,,,,dassault has to understand this.



And that would be? Seriously I feel it is Rafale of bust. If the Rafale deal calls through for whatever reason the IAF is going to be stuck with the current situation- LCA trudging along, MKIs on order (maybe a few more SQDs if the Rafale deal is called off), FGFA under devlopment and the AMCA just on the horizon. Faced with a self-imposed 2019 deadline for all MIG-21 and 27 and many Jags to be phased out the IAF is facing a very acute SQD numbers crunch and unless the intake increases the SQD strength is going to plummet come 2019 and won't recover for a good 4-6 years to pre-2019 levels (which are already way below the sanctioned strength of the IAF).The IAF said it wanted and is planning for 45-50 fighter SQDs by 2027-30. 

The EFT is a no go IMHO despite it being the L2 bidder. 

Even if the EFT goes through you're looking at post 2019 deleiveries IMHO as it will take a good 2-3 years just to hammer out a deal and then another 3 years for first delivery. The case would be the same for additional MKI orders, you're not going to get delivers of these extra units for a good 4-5 years and then one has to ask what damage would an extension to HAL's MKI production lines do to the IAF's FGFA production as the FGFA is set to use the exact same MKI production lines and the FGFA's current production timelines are based on MKI prodcition coming to an end by the end of this decade for which re- tooling and expansion at Nasik has already begun. The knock-on effect to the FGFA program (an incredibly important project for the IAF) could be signifcant. 

Then one has to say that neither the MKI nor EFT to adequately meet the IAF's vision for their Rafale's ie multi-role assets focusing primarily on the strike role. The MKI's is designated an "Air Dominace" fighter by the IAF. The EFT's A2G Capabilties or rather lack thereof have been clearly exposed and the all-solving Tranche 3 upgrade is a long way off and mostly unfunded by the partner nations as of now. The EFT too is designed to fight more in the A2A domain. The Rafale really is what the IAF wants and needs. 


Like I said, it really is Rafale or bust for India/the IAF too (just don't tell the French that ).

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## SR-91

IMO India and France both do not have any choice but to hammer out this deal.

India needs France and France needs India.

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## rockstarIN

Abingdonboy said:


> And that would be? Seriously I feel it is Rafale of bust. If the Rafale deal calls through for whatever reason the IAF is going to be stuck with the current situation- LCA trudging along, MKIs on order (maybe a few more SQDs if the Rafale deal is called off), FGFA under devlopment and the AMCA just on the horizon. Faced with a self-imposed 2019 deadline for all MIG-21 and 27 and many Jags to be phased out the IAF is facing a very acute SQD numbers crunch and unless the intake increases the SQD strength is going to plummet come 2019 and won't recover for a good 4-6 years to pre-2019 levels (which are already way below the sanctioned strength of the IAF).The IAF said it wanted and is planning for 45-50 fighter SQDs by 2027-30.
> 
> The EFT is a no go IMHO despite it being the L2 bidder.
> 
> Even if the EFT goes through you're looking at post 2019 deleiveries IMHO as it will take a good 2-3 years just to hammer out a deal and then another 3 years for first delivery. The case would be the same for additional MKI orders, you're not going to get delivers of these extra units for a good 4-5 years and then one has to ask what damage would an extension to HAL's MKI production lines do to the IAF's FGFA production as the FGFA is set to use the exact same MKI production lines and the FGFA's current production timelines are based on MKI prodcition coming to an end by the end of this decade for which re- tooling and expansion at Nasik has already begun. The knock-on effect to the FGFA program (an incredibly important project for the IAF) could be signifcant.
> 
> Then one has to say that neither the MKI nor EFT to adequately meet the IAF's vision for their Rafale's ie multi-role assets focusing primarily on the strike role. The MKI's is designated an "Air Dominace" fighter by the IAF. The EFT's A2G Capabilties or rather lack thereof have been clearly exposed and the all-solving Tranche 3 upgrade is a long way off and mostly unfunded by the partner nations as of now. The EFT too is designed to fight more in the A2A domain. The Rafale really is what the IAF wants and needs.
> 
> 
> Like I said, it really is Rafale or bust for India/the IAF too (just don't tell the French that ).




The best is what rafale which IAF wants and suits the best for sure.

But it does not mean that MKIs are way behind to A2G. It is as capable as any other jet in any A2G mode. IAF simply love Mirage 2000 and its operational worthiness than the Russian stuff, thats it. We can additionally buy MKIs from Russian production lines in flyaway condition if we are opt for it.

Since we are getting Apaches for CAP, we can 'adjust' with MKI for more deep strikes etc. Do not forget MKi is getting better and better with air launched Brahmos and even Russians ordered the same configuration for their airforce (SU30M). We are getting upgraded Mig 29s & M2ks with enough strike package. 

Least do not forget Mig-29ks which can compliment airforce.


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## saurav

Rafales are good planes.. very good.. But are they worth $20 Bill ..? especially in an economic condition like ours..? And the Food Security bill yet to kick in..?

I would rather have few more MKIs and LCAs instead..


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## he-man

Abingdonboy said:


> And that would be? Seriously I feel it is Rafale of bust. If the Rafale deal calls through for whatever reason the IAF is going to be stuck with the current situation- LCA trudging along, MKIs on order (maybe a few more SQDs if the Rafale deal is called off), FGFA under devlopment and the AMCA just on the horizon. Faced with a self-imposed 2019 deadline for all MIG-21 and 27 and many Jags to be phased out the IAF is facing a very acute SQD numbers crunch and unless the intake increases the SQD strength is going to plummet come 2019 and won't recover for a good 4-6 years to pre-2019 levels (which are already way below the sanctioned strength of the IAF).The IAF said it wanted and is planning for 45-50 fighter SQDs by 2027-30.
> 
> The EFT is a no go IMHO despite it being the L2 bidder.
> 
> Even if the EFT goes through you're looking at post 2019 deleiveries IMHO as it will take a good 2-3 years just to hammer out a deal and then another 3 years for first delivery. The case would be the same for additional MKI orders, you're not going to get delivers of these extra units for a good 4-5 years and then one has to ask what damage would an extension to HAL's MKI production lines do to the IAF's FGFA production as the FGFA is set to use the exact same MKI production lines and the FGFA's current production timelines are based on MKI prodcition coming to an end by the end of this decade for which re- tooling and expansion at Nasik has already begun. The knock-on effect to the FGFA program (an incredibly important project for the IAF) could be signifcant.
> 
> Then one has to say that neither the MKI nor EFT to adequately meet the IAF's vision for their Rafale's ie multi-role assets focusing primarily on the strike role. The MKI's is designated an "Air Dominace" fighter by the IAF. The EFT's A2G Capabilties or rather lack thereof have been clearly exposed and the all-solving Tranche 3 upgrade is a long way off and mostly unfunded by the partner nations as of now. The EFT too is designed to fight more in the A2A domain. The Rafale really is what the IAF wants and needs.
> 
> 
> Like I said, it really is Rafale or bust for India/the IAF too (just don't tell the French that ).



eft is out due to cost reasons and will never make the cut.

if rafale goes(only ground possible is cost) then we will need something like mig-35 with massive retrofit making it cost somewhere between 60-70 million per plane with fga-35 aesa radar having 1000 t/r modules and some equipment meant for pakfa like maws and irst.

there is no way we are buying more rcs monsters like mki or tejas which is nothing but a point defence fighter comparable to jf-17


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## [Bregs]

Rafale is a must for India seeing our eastern border accquring different sorts of fighter aircrafts


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## Abingdonboy

he-man said:


> eft is out due to cost reasons and will never make the cut.
> 
> if rafale goes(only ground possible is cost) then we will need something like mig-35 with massive retrofit making it cost somewhere between 60-70 million per plane with fga-35 aesa radar having 1000 t/r modules and some equipment meant for pakfa like maws and irst.
> 
> there is no way we are buying more rcs monsters like mki or tejas which is nothing but a point defence fighter comparable to jf-17



The last thing the IAF needs is the MIG-35. What are you looking at? 2-3 years to get a de signed, 2-3 more years for all your relevant upgrades/customisation to take place and then 3 years for the first deliveres to begin, this just is not good enough. Not to mention the IAF wants to diversify not get another Russian headache, I can see the IAF getting screwed on timelines and cost once again. 

Then on has to wonder if such a deal would open the door to litigation from the likes of Boeing, LM, SAAB etc when the MIG-35 was KICKED OUT of the MMRCA for technical deficences but was allowed to win at the last moment? Of I was one of the others who weren't "down selected" I'd be fuming after having spent untold millions on the MMRCA competition in the belief everyone was on a lelvdl playing feild. 


The MIG-35 is a rubbish option across the board IMHO. 



RAFALE FTW

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## he-man

Abingdonboy said:


> The last thing the IAF needs is the MIG-35. What are you looking at? 2-3 years to get a de signed, 2-3 more years for all your relevant upgrades/customisation to take place and then 3 years for the first deliveres to begin, this just is not good enough. Not to mention the IAF wants to diversify not get another Russian headache, I can see the IAF getting screwed on timelines and cost once again.
> 
> Then on has to wonder if such a deal would open the door to litigation from the likes of Boeing, LM, SAAB etc when the MIG-35 was KICKED OUT of the MMRCA for technical deficences but was allowed to win at the last moment? Of I was one of the others who weren't "down selected" I'd be fuming after having spent untold millions on the MMRCA competition in the belief everyone was on a lelvdl playing feild.
> 
> 
> The MIG-35 is a rubbish option across the board IMHO.
> 
> 
> 
> RAFALE FTW



u never discuss on proper grounds

read my post properly first,,,,,am i comparing mig-35 with rafale??no
i am saying what if something happens and course to be followed after that

the deal will be signed easily if its cost effective.

and i want a mig-35 that costs 70 million dollars and carries some pakfa equipment and fga-35 aesa radar...................not the useless 35 million dollar mig-35 on display for mmrca trials

if thats not possible then even i am not sold on mig-35


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## prandtl

I don't know whether this tread is proper one to ask the doubt.
but can any one tell me whether rafale is designed using Area Rule?,because i can see Change in Area just ahead of Diffuser Inlet.
i always think it served two purpose 
1) Implementing Area Rule to reduce Drag cause sometimes i think those Engine used in Rafale are underpowered
2)Guided way for Air to Diffuser inlet. 

Now that was just my doubt! so plz don't Shout on ME that i'm outa mind or Crazy and all.


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## halloweene

About Area rule, definitely yes. Do you realize that Dassault Systemes is building the software used to design F35 (Catia)... And that Dassault Aviation ALWAYS have the most advanced version (in fact last version is able to generate equations instead of being simply a 3D software), and NeuroN is the first ever "plane" fully designed on a virtual platform between several countries?


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## Storm Force

Back in JULY i started this thread

http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/244415-mmrca-may-scrapped-year-end.html?highlight=


MUCH TO THE DISGUST and ridicule of many fellow indian posters

As we approach OCTOBER i stil have a horrible feeling that the nitemare scenario of a massively REDUCED IAF exists.

IMO this deal is FAR TOO EXPENSIVE &* importantly TOO LATE in the day * A STOP GAP option of off the shelf fillers of Mirage2000, mig29smt & LCA mK1 is WHAT THE IAF will reluctantly get until 2022

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## he-man

Storm Force said:


> Back in JULY i started this thread
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/244415-mmrca-may-scrapped-year-end.html?highlight=
> 
> 
> MUCH TO THE DISGUST and ridicule of many fellow indian posters
> 
> As we approach OCTOBER i stil have a horrible feeling that the nitemare scenario of a massively REDUCED IAF exists.
> 
> IMO this deal is FAR TOO EXPENSIVE &* importantly TOO LATE in the day * A STOP GAP option of off the shelf fillers of Mirage2000, mig29smt & LCA mK1 is WHAT THE IAF will reluctantly get until 2022



man half of the seniors hate me just for sharing these views

i was suggesting highly upgraded su-35 with pakfa electronics and radar

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## prandtl

he-man said:


> man half of the seniors hate me just for sharing these views
> 
> i was suggesting highly upgraded su-35 with pakfa electronics and radar


Dude what if Mig 35 comes in production? because one is in operational testing and one is in Development!.
i would prefer MIG 35 because i think they will agree for Full TOT and currently they need orders so there are chances that they may Deliver the AirCraft's on Time.


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## Abingdonboy

> This lack should be remedied with the injection of resources resulting from the nearly completed contract with India.


Rafale News - Page 321


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## Jason bourne

What's latest on mmrca deals guys @halloweene @Abingdonboy


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## GURU DUTT

Jason bourne said:


> What's latest on mmrca deals guys @halloweene @Abingdonboy



well latest news is rafale will get clearence before nest years elections but if something goes wrong and india thinks of dropping the rafale dont worry then also as USA has made it clear to IAF and MOD that will will diliver 60 F18 within a year and for the rest they might give assembli line to india but forget about Full TOT but they might lift all the strings from the deal and give india the source codes of there radars to sweeten the deal as USA wants India to be power ful enof to post a credibal challence to chinese hegemony in this regeon while on the opposite site they will lift crubs on japan and might allow japan forces to florish and this is good since then japan might sell its hardware to india

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## Jason bourne

GURU DUTT said:


> well latest news is rafale will get clearence before nest years elections but if something goes wrong and india thinks of dropping the rafale dont worry then also *as USA has made it clear to IAF and MOD that will will diliver 60 F18 within a year and for the rest they might give assembli line to india but forget about Full TOT but they might lift all the strings from the deal and give india the source codes of there radars to sweeten the deal *as USA wants India to be power ful enof to post a credibal challence to chinese hegemony in this regeon while on the opposite site they will lift crubs on japan and might allow japan forces to florish and this is good since then japan might sell its hardware to india




Are you serious can u provide the link


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## GURU DUTT

Jason bourne said:


> Are you serious can u provide the link



sorry buddy dont have any links to give but have some serious insider source and the latest among it is that india is also looking towards the second hand F18 & F16 of israel , USA and Japan with latest ASEA and wepons & other goodies and there is a rumour that USA might sell all the surplus wepons from afghanistan to india and that means all / 85% rest 10% will be given to ANA and 5% will be taken back or pakistan might get a few items aswell

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## bornmoron

I hope this news is also conveyed to the Dassault..




GURU DUTT said:


> well latest news is rafale will get clearence before nest years elections but if something goes wrong and india thinks of dropping the rafale dont worry then also as USA has made it clear to IAF and MOD that will will diliver 60 F18 within a year and for the rest they might give assembli line to india but forget about Full TOT but they might lift all the strings from the deal and give india the source codes of there radars to sweeten the deal as USA wants India to be power ful enof to post a credibal challence to chinese hegemony in this regeon while on the opposite site they will lift crubs on japan and might allow japan forces to florish and this is good since then japan might sell its hardware to india


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## Jason bourne

GURU DUTT said:


> well latest news is rafale will get clearence before nest years elections but if something goes wrong and india thinks of dropping the rafale dont worry then also as USA has made it clear to IAF and MOD that will will diliver 60 F18 within a year and for the rest they might give assembli line to india but forget about Full TOT but they might lift all the strings from the deal and give india the source codes of there radars to sweeten the deal as USA wants India to be power ful enof to post a credibal challence to chinese hegemony in this regeon while on the opposite site they will lift crubs on japan and might allow japan forces to florish and this is good since then japan might sell its hardware to india




If all this true then scrap rafale and go for f18 goodness me 60 in a year yes then can deliver buy 300 f18


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## GURU DUTT

bornmoron said:


> I hope this news is also conveyed to the Dassault..



well they know it already and thats the main reson that dassult and french are so much active these days they are even thinkin of giving india the some very closed secrets about the Jet engine tech and ASEA provided MOD and IAF clears that rafale supply first 60 jets made in france while the rest will be assambelled in india under hal and some big buisness house


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## bornmoron

Hopefully things fall in line with the french,,

US got good tech no doubt,,,but wid US,,,its just like " police se dosti bhi acchi nahin, aur dushmani bhi "



GURU DUTT said:


> well they know it already and thats the main reson that dassult and french are so much active these days they are even thinkin of giving india the some very closed secrets about the Jet engine tech and ASEA provided MOD and IAF clears that rafale supply first 60 jets made in france while the rest will be assambelled in india under hal and some big buisness house


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## GURU DUTT

Jason bourne said:


> If all this true then scrap rafale and go for f18 goodness me 60 in a year yes then can deliver buy 300 f18



well bro french are also saying the same now and to sweetn the deal are willing to give engine and ASEA tech which americans are reluctant to 

and MOD is confused now and thats the main reason why sonia is going so very often to USA .l..watch this space and you will get some official news before 31st dec


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## Jason bourne

GURU DUTT said:


> well bro french are also saying the same now and to sweetn the deal are willing to give engine and ASEA tech which americans are reluctant to
> 
> and MOD is confused now and thats the main reason why sonia is going so very often to USA .l..watch this space and you will get some official news before 31st dec



I am talking abt delivery of 60 aircrafts in a year France can't ...


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## GURU DUTT

Jason bourne said:


> I am talking abt delivery of 60 aircrafts in a year France can't ...



but french think they can and they are willing to trade off some trade secrets i think if french agree to give the latest ASEA and spectra tech along with the engine tech the PO might go to french as both parties are willing to give same kick backs or perks with the deal

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## halloweene

Neither Boeing, as it must till 2015 produce US and Australian F18. No way they could deliver 60 more in a year for India.


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## GURU DUTT

halloweene said:


> Neither Boeing, as it must till 2015 produce US and Australian F18. No way they could deliver 60 more in a year for India.



well bhai what i heared that i told dont underastimate the americans even french are also saying the same thing and it was the french who first came up with the idea but IAF finds F18 better and much cheaper but they are not able to forget the spectra and that is the USP of french


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## halloweene

From twitter

Actions de l'utilisateur 
Abonné

Guillaume Steuer
&#8207;@G_Steuer
Discussions with #Dassault regarding potential mods to #Rafale contract should be finished by the end of this year, French MoD says.
Voir la traduction
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## Jason bourne

halloweene said:


> Neither Boeing, as it must till 2015 produce US and Australian F18. No way they could deliver 60 more in a year for India.



But what I heard years back that USA can produse more hen 50 Ac in a year ...


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## halloweene

i'm not understimating them, simply the supply chain is not fit to build so much more planes for a "one shot" contract.

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## Jason bourne

halloweene said:


> From twitter
> 
> Actions de l'utilisateur
> Abonné
> 
> Guillaume Steuer
> &#8207;@G_Steuer
> Discussions with #Dassault regarding potential mods to #Rafale contract should be finished by the end of this year, French MoD says.
> Voir la traduction
> Répondre Retweeter Favori Plus



That's all gibberish for me whats the latest u heard on mmrca deal ?


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## GURU DUTT

halloweene said:


> i'm not understimating them, simply the supply chain is not fit to build so much more planes for a "one shot" contract.



well brother its do opr die for the dassault cause if IAF backs owt now they wont be able to sell the supirior plane to anyone else and will not be able to cover the costs of the program and it might end something like typhoon


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## halloweene

Jason bourne said:


> That's all gibberish for me whats the latest u heard on mmrca deal ?



The important part is


> Discussions with #Dassault regarding potential mods to #Rafale contract should be finished by the end of this year, French MoD says.




@ Guru not really for Dassault, 75% of theirbuiness is biz jets. But it would clearly impair Rafale program. I'd say that France and french ar force are more in need then DAssault.

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## DANGER-ZONE

halloweene said:


> The important part is
> 
> 
> @ Guru not really for Dassault, 75% of theirbuiness is biz jets. But it would clearly impair Rafale program. I'd say that France and french ar force are more in need then DAssault.



How many Rafales can Dassault produce within a year, what's its capacity ?


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## Abingdonboy

GURU DUTT said:


> well latest news is rafale will get clearence before nest years elections but if something goes wrong and india thinks of dropping the rafale dont worry then also as USA has made it clear to IAF and MOD that will will diliver 60 F18 within a year and for the rest they might give assembli line to india but forget about Full TOT but they might lift all the strings from the deal and give india the source codes of there radars to sweeten the deal as USA wants India to be power ful enof to post a credibal challence to chinese hegemony in this regeon while on the opposite site they will lift crubs on japan and might allow japan forces to florish and this is good since then japan might sell its hardware to india


I'm sorry but BS. Firstly deliveries within 1 year are all well and good but it's going to take at least double that to set up the requisite training, maintenance and logistics infrastructure in India to support any new weapons type. The IAF would never be foolish enough to go for such ambitious time lines when the end result could be utter disaster. The IAF are proffesional a who understand the complexities of indicting a new aircraft type. 


And one of the major selling points of the MMRCA deal was/is the industrial the deal would bring to India's aerospace industry. Such a deal from the US would make this goal redundant. 


Then there's the clear randomness to it all- how could the IAF/MoD have planned this govt-govt deal and wouldn't such a deal completely subvert the entire MMRCA selection process and very well open the door for disgruntled genders such as Dassualt, EFT consortium, SAAB etc to persue Litigation against India. 


Let's not forget the F-18 FAILED to be down-selected by the IAF on TECHNICAL grounds ie it failed to Meet certain basic crucial technical standards. This is a fundamental failure in my book. 




GURU DUTT said:


> sorry buddy *** have any links to give but have some serious insider source and the latest among it is that india is also looking towards the second hand F18 & F16 of israel , USA and Japan with latest ASEA and wepons & other goodies and there is a rumour that USA might sell all the surplus wepons from afghanistan to india and that means all / 85% rest 10% will be given to ANA and 5% will be taken back or pakistan might get a few items aswell



Once again sheer nonsense. The Indian military is simply not interested in second hand rubbish from America's wars or aged fighters from Israel. India can afford the best and the latest. And just the idea of getting F-16s would have IAF generals in fits of laughter.



Jason bourne said:


> What's latest on mmrca deals guys @halloweene @Abingdonboy


My feeling is the deal will be signed sometime in the next 6 months.

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## Sergi

@Abingdonboy : if you are interested in any rumour mill news the probable sign on the contract will be before 24 Dec 2013.
But I stop believing that after June


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## GURU DUTT

Abingdonboy said:


> I'm sorry but BS. Firstly deliveries within 1 year are all well and good but it's going to take at least double that to set up the requisite training, maintenance and logistics infrastructure in India to support any new weapons type. The IAF would never be foolish enough to go for such ambitious time lines when the end result could be utter disaster. The IAF are proffesional a who understand the complexities of indicting a new aircraft type.
> 
> 
> And one of the major selling points of the MMRCA deal was/is the industrial the deal would bring to India's aerospace industry. Such a deal from the US would make this goal redundant.
> 
> 
> Then there's the clear randomness to it all- how could the IAF/MoD have planned this govt-govt deal and wouldn't such a deal completely subvert the entire MMRCA selection process and very well open the door for disgruntled genders such as Dassualt, EFT consortium, SAAB etc to persue Litigation against India.
> 
> 
> Let's not forget the F-18 FAILED to be down-selected by the IAF on TECHNICAL grounds ie it failed to Meet certain basic crucial technical standards. This is a fundamental failure in my book.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Once again sheer nonsense. The Indian military is simply not interested in second hand rubbish from America's wars or aged fighters from Israel. India can afford the best and the latest. And just the idea of getting F-16s would have IAF generals in fits of laughter.
> 
> 
> My feeling is the deal will be signed sometime in the next 6 months.



well bro read my first post in this regard they are just rumours doing rounds in corridoars of MOD rest is upto MOD and GOI to decide not me thanks


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## Abingdonboy

halloweene said:


> The important part is
> 
> 
> @ Guru not really for Dassault, 75% of theirbuiness is biz jets. But it would clearly impair Rafale program. I'd say that France and french ar force are more in need then DAssault.


This is a very fair point actually. So a more balanced way of putting it could be this is a do or die contract for the Rafale program and or the military aviation arm of Dassualt.


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## IND151

* Dassault is one step closer to signing the MMRCA contract with India after it delivered the first Rafale fighter aircraft in the Lot-4 production to the French Directorate General of Armaments (DGA) last week.*

The *aircraft* is the *first* of* 60 production Rafales*, to be delivered with the *new Thales RBE2 active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar *also fitted with next-generation sensors, the* new-generation missile launch detector (DDM NG) *and the new front sector optronics *&#8220;Identification and Telemetry*.&#8221;

The *Indian MMRCA tender* stipulates the *aircraft must have a production AESA radar* and not a prototype. While none of the contending aircraft had an in-production AESA radar at the bidding stage, the Rafale delivering an AESA-equipped production aircraft to the French Air Force means that Dassault has met a key condition which should help in the negotiations currently underway prior to signing of the contract.

The inclusion of the AESA radar makes the Rafale the first European combat aircraft to use the Thales-made radar.

In operational terms, the AESA?RBE2/AA (antenna active) radar can track many targets. It also allows a significant ?increase in detection range of enemy aircraft and a significant increase in reliability over previous-generation radars.

In air-to-air mode,* a much greater sensitivity makes it possible to?detect smaller targets and detects them earlier*. Since the antenna comprises a very large number of active modules, the failure of some of these has no noticeable effect on the overall performance?and reliability of the system.

Dassault will tailor the MMRCA Rafale after the current French Air Force&#8217;s Rafale Standard F3 Tranche; the aircraft will use complete weaponry including 60 of which are to be delivered under Tranche 4.

The first such Rafale recently began an extended validation campaign and will integrating the MBDA Meteor BVRAAM&#8217;s later this year making it the most powerful of any Rafale.

*The Indian Air Force technical team will fly and test this very model once the deal is concluded with Dassault* and the production of a first batch of 18 Rafale Hs is launched at Bordeaux-Mérignac.Meanwhile, the newly delivered Rafale will be subjected to flight tests at the Mont-de-Marsan airbase in the coming days.

Dassault Meets Key Tender Condition In Indian MMRCA Contract | idrw.org

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## shree835

*Dassault Meets Key Tender Condition In Indian MMRCA Contract*

Dassault is one step closer to signing the MMRCA contract with India after it delivered the first Rafale fighter aircraft in the Lot-4 production to the French Directorate General of Armaments (DGA) last week.

The aircraft is the first of 60 production Rafales, to be delivered with the new Thales RBE2 active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar also fitted with next-generation sensors, the new-generation missile launch detector (DDM NG) and the new front sector optronics Identification and Telemetry.

The Indian MMRCA tender stipulates the aircraft must have a production AESA radar and not a prototype. While none of the contending aircraft had an in-production AESA radar at the bidding stage, the Rafale delivering an AESA-equipped production aircraft to the French Air Force means that Dassault has met a key condition which should help in the negotiations currently underway prior to signing of the contract.

The inclusion of the AESA radar makes the Rafale the first European combat aircraft to use the Thales-made radar.

In operational terms, the AESA?RBE2/AA (antenna active) radar can track many targets. It also allows a significant ?increase in detection range of enemy aircraft and a significant increase in reliability over previous-generation radars.

In air-to-air mode, a much greater sensitivity makes it possible to?detect smaller targets and detects them earlier. Since the antenna comprises a very large number of active modules, the failure of some of these has no noticeable effect on the overall performance?and reliability of the system.

Dassault will tailor the MMRCA Rafale after the current French Air Forces Rafale Standard F3 Tranche; the aircraft will use complete weaponry including 60 of which are to be delivered under Tranche 4.

The first such Rafale recently began an extended validation campaign and will integrating the MBDA Meteor BVRAAMs later this year making it the most powerful of any Rafale.

The Indian Air Force technical team will fly and test this very model once the deal is concluded with Dassault and the production of a first batch of 18 Rafale Hs is launched at Bordeaux-Mérignac.Meanwhile, the newly delivered Rafale will be subjected to flight tests at the Mont-de-Marsan airbase in the coming days.

http://www.defencenews.in/defence-news-internal.asp?get=new&id=1950


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## Jason bourne

> The *Indian MMRCA tender* stipulates the *aircraft must have a production AESA radar* and not a prototype. While none of the contending aircraft had an in-production AESA radar at the bidding stage



 not even US had in production AESA ? @IND151


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## rockstarIN

Jason bourne said:


> not even US had in production AESA ? @IND151



F-16 and F-18 had operating AESAs at that time.


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## Jason bourne

rockstarIN said:


> F-16 and F-18 had operating AESAs at that time.



Then why this claim ?


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## he-man

Now ppl i don't intend to spank the govt but the fact remains that its almost 2014 now and we have no info on mmrca??

1)shouldn't the govt act a bit fast?

2)if the deal is signed in 2014(only if)..............the delivery starts in 2017!!!

3)aren't we acting too foolishly on this??


I request any member with solid info on this topic to clear some confusion


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## GURU DUTT

he-man said:


> Now ppl i don't intend to spank the govt but the fact remains that its almost 2014 now and we have no info on mmrca??
> 
> 1)shouldn't the govt act a bit fast?
> 
> 2)if the deal is signed in 2014(only if)..............the delivery starts in 2017!!!
> 
> 3)aren't we acting too foolishly on this??
> 
> 
> I request any member with solid info on this topic to clear some confusion



well it will be signed just before next years genral elections and rafale will be great but the catch might be that france will give 60 (in the same time as they agreed to give 12)units built in france while rest will be made here and if anything goes wrong then there are chances that american super bug might get the contract thru a wild card entry


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## janon

There is a 580 page sticky thread for MRCA discussions. Please use that for general discussions, instead of opening new threads.
@Oscar @nuclearpak : Please merge with the sticky.

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## he-man

This is a serious issue............and needs to be discussed here.

time is passing and we have no news!!??



GURU DUTT said:


> well it will be signed just before next years genral elections and rafale will be great but the catch might be that france will give 60 (in the same time as they agreed to give 12)units built in france while rest will be made here and if anything goes wrong then there are chances that american super bug might get the contract thru a wild card entry



if we have to get so many off shelf then whats the use of tot??

someone needs to clear the air here


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## GURU DUTT

he-man said:


> This is a serious issue............and needs to be discussed here.
> 
> time is passing and we have no news!!??
> 
> 
> 
> if we have to get so many off shelf then whats the use of tot??
> 
> someone needs to clear the air here


well buddy there will be no TOT it was and it will be an eyewash and thats it tell me why should or why would a company/nation will give away its trade secrets just for a sake of a big order ...think specially when the nogtiating agents are ever ready to be convinced to buy them as per sellers terms by the other means


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## he-man

GURU DUTT said:


> well buddy there will be no TOT it was and it will be an eyewash and thats it tell me why should or why would a company/nation will give away its trade secrets just for a sake of a big order ...think specially when the nogtiating agents are ever ready to be convinced to buy them as per sellers terms by the other means



i know this buddy
unfortunately fanboys are still blind to this fact.

some fools thought that the aesa that comes with rafale will be used to build indigenous aesa by drdo

and even nowwhen its almost 2014 we haven't decided anything??why??

is france unwilling to give tot?or if we have no money?

by the way can i change the heading of thread???

want to insert has instead of is

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## Johny D

*Russian Missiles for Indias Rafales?.*

Sept 13/13: Weapons. Russias Tactical Missile Corporation (TRV) told journalists at MAKS 2013 that theyre negotiating with Dassault Aviation for the possible use of their missiles on Indias Rafales. 

India bought MBDAs MICA air-to-air missiles for its Mirage 2000s, but Rafale-compatible weapons dont otherwise feature prominently in Indias existing stocks. Unless the partnership develops a Universal Weapon Interface for TRVs products, and probably modifies a number of the missiles themselves, that kind of integration and testing is expensive. Less expensive than buying new weapons? And whats the capability payoff? Thats what negotiations, and business analysis, need to determine. 


Sources: TRV Products page , via WayBack 2013 | AIN, Russian Missiles for Indias Rafales?.


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## Johny D

@he-man - India&#8217;s Minister of State for Defence Jitendra Singh told an audience at the recent Paris Air Show that the Rafale deal:

&#8220;&#8230;is not stuck anywhere. It is the biggest deal of its kind in the world and, of course, a very complex one too. They are talking to HAL and the private sector companies in India as well; so it is progressing&#8230;&#8221;

*another source says...*


The Indian Air Force (IAF) is coming up with a contingency plan to procure fighter jets to maintain its operational preparedness in case the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) deal worth over $15 billion to procure 126 Rafale jets does not go through.

The backup plan will see the IAF opting for 50 more Sukhoi-30 MKI jets to be bought off the shelf from Russia.


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## he-man

JD_In said:


> @he-man - India&#8217;s Minister of State for Defence Jitendra Singh told an audience at the recent Paris Air Show that the Rafale deal:
> 
> &#8220;&#8230;is not stuck anywhere. It is the biggest deal of its kind in the world and, of course, a very complex one too. They are talking to HAL and the private sector companies in India as well; so it is progressing&#8230;&#8221;
> 
> *another source says...*
> 
> 
> The Indian Air Force (IAF) is coming up with a contingency plan to procure fighter jets to maintain its operational preparedness in case the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) deal worth over $15 billion to procure 126 Rafale jets does not go through.
> 
> The backup plan will see the IAF opting for 50 more Sukhoi-30 MKI jets to be bought off the shelf from Russia.




now this is very serious thing??!!

if IAF is thinking on these lines then there are bottlenecks for sure
@Abingdonboy @Dillinger


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## Dillinger

he-man said:


> now this is very serious thing??!!
> 
> if IAF is thinking on these lines then there are bottlenecks for sure
> @Abingdonboy @Dillinger



IAF has contingencies? Yes. This is one of them? No.


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## he-man

Dillinger said:


> IAF has contingencies? Yes. This is one of them? No.



then the above post is farce??

anyways we are faltering with every passing day

and what about tejas yaar??koi to kuch batao aam aadmi ko


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## [Bregs]

September is almost gone and no deal in sight if the deal didn't go through in October then contingencies will be explored


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## he-man

[Bregs];4817567 said:


> September is almost gone and no deal in sight if the deal didn't go through in October then contingencies will be explored



do u really think it will be signed in october??

i don't...............there is almost pin drop silence here,,,,i think we are trying to cut defence spending for atleast this year.

maybe something will move if situation improves next year


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## [Bregs]

he-man said:


> do u really think it will be signed in october??
> 
> i don't...............there is almost pin drop silence here,,,,i think we are trying to cut defence spending for atleast this year.
> 
> maybe something will move if situation improves next year



Nah its not cut in defense spending but insistence of french in choosing partners for various systems to be co sourced from India so as to make HAL job as assembly line only, this job is proving to be main time consuming


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## he-man

I want to get su-35 with advanced pakfa electronics if at all contingency plan comes into play.........mki is simply not good enough


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## he-man

[Bregs];4817583 said:


> Nah its not cut in defense spending but insistence of french in choosing partners for various systems to be co sourced from India so as to make HAL job as assembly line only, this job is proving to be main time consuming



whatever man,,,,,,,they are ******* wasting our time.

when mmrca was announced were french sleeping??
didn't they read the tender??

i am getting annoyed at french for creating such confusions


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## [Bregs]

he-man said:


> whatever man,,,,,,,they are ******* wasting our time.
> 
> when mmrca was announced were french sleeping??
> didn't they read the tender??
> 
> i am getting annoyed at french for creating such confusions



If because of delay like this, indian elections, change in govt, all taken in account and deal cancelled then french shop closed and India will loose active squardons of IAF till alternative arrangements are made


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## Gessler

he-man said:


> whatever man,,,,,,,they are ******* wasting our time.
> 
> when mmrca was announced were french sleeping??
> didn't they read the tender??
> 
> i am getting annoyed at french for creating such confusions



I feel Indian side is creating more confusions than French side.


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## Black Eagle 90

I am sure like PC-7 deal, there would be a mix of 100 EF-2000 and 100 Rafael in the IAF deal. For IN I am 100% sure IAC-2 will be of Mig-29Ks...


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## GURU DUTT

Black Eagle 90 said:


> I am sure like PC-7 deal, there would be a mix of 100 EF-2000 and 100 Rafael in the IAF deal. For IN I am 100% sure IAC-2 will be of Mig-29Ks...



well a mix of 126 rafale and 60 rafale M seems more beleavable to me and as for IAS2 if the rafale gets MMRCA contract then im sure there will be rafale M onboard the IAC2

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## rockstarIN

he-man said:


> I want to get su-35 with advanced pakfa electronics if at all contingency plan comes into play.........mki is simply not good enough



I like to see the strategic nuclear force's 40 jets to be as Su-35, since there is commonality with Su-30.


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## Nishan_101

Dear all, I am sure now we all should agree that MMRCA will never being signed and IAF will have to go for multiple options like EF-2000 and Rafales; or may be like nothing going to happen at all. And IAF will have to survive itself with Su-30MKIs and Mirage-2000 with support from Mig-29s and Jaguars.

Don't ever fear of Pakistan, fear of China....


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## Hulk

Nishan_101 said:


> Dear all, I am sure now we all should agree that MMRCA will never being signed and IAF will have to go for multiple options like EF-2000 and Rafales; or may be like nothing going to happen at all. And IAF will have to survive itself with Su-30MKIs and Mirage-2000 with support from Mig-29s and Jaguars.
> 
> Don't ever fear of Pakistan, fear of China....



MRCA is on its last stage of getting signed. Most of issues are sorted.

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## Nishan_101

indianrabbit said:


> MRCA is on its last stage of getting signed. Most of issues are sorted.



But Sir, we all have heard in the past that India is having some problems regarding the local political issues as well as now Financial issues. More over IAF has some serious issues with quality that HAL used to provide.

All of this seems that IAF might go for 100 EF-2000s and 100 Rafales; may be some 100-160 Grippen NG/100 F-35As. We have been hearing that the next Govt. of India will going to make it happen. As we can clearly see that IAF has put its money on 75 PC-7 and will going to order another 125+ of them in near future... too...


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## GURU DUTT

Nishan_101 said:


> But Sir, we all have heard in the past that India is having some problems regarding the local political issues as well as now Financial issues. More over IAF has some serious issues with quality that HAL used to provide.
> 
> All of this seems that IAF might go for 100 EF-2000s and 100 Rafales; may be some 100-160 Grippen NG/100 F-35As. We have been hearing that the next Govt. of India will going to make it happen. As we can clearly see that IAF has put its money on 75 PC-7 and will going to order another 125+ of them in near future... too...



well brother rabit is quite right but if things dont go as planned and there is a change in the givt at centre even then count rafale very much in its onli upto USA that what rabit it pulls owt of hat now since MMS is there for some very serous nagociations in terms of defnce industries if USA is willing to provide joint production of its latest jet engine & ASEA radar Tech then things might turn very good for F18 super bug and given its track record USA might give the diliveries thought unrealistic by many here but thats a distan speculation 

yes there will be rafale as MMRCA but bulk will be maid in france 

yes india will go ahead with serial production of LCA2,Rafale & FGFA in future and things are already in process and are at a very advanced stage its onli that there are a few hiccups


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## Storm Force

WITH DASSULT concerned about HALS ability to absorb the technology and maintain the HIGH STANDARDS of RAFALE and india air force worried about FALLING nos of frontline fighters due to mig21/27 RETIREMENT 

SIMPLE SOLUTION 

GET 48 RAFALES built in FRANCE & DELIVERED between 2016=2020 
AND AT THE SAME TIME GET INDIA TO START LICENSE ASSEMBLY FROM 2017-2024 for remaining 78 fighters


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## janon

Storm Force said:


> WITH DASSULT concerned about HALS ability to absorb the technology and maintain the HIGH STANDARDS of RAFALE and india air force worried about FALLING nos of frontline fighters due to mig21/27 RETIREMENT
> 
> SIMPLE SOLUTION
> 
> GET 48 RAFALES built in FRANCE & DELIVERED between 2016=2020
> AND AT THE SAME TIME GET INDIA TO START LICENSE ASSEMBLY FROM 2017-2024 for remaining 78 fighters



That would require re-negotiating the contract, which means another two years.

Also, Eurofighter would cry foul and claim that they could have given a better financial bid if the numbers to be produced in Europe was different, and demand a new chance to bid.

The best thing to do is to sign this deal as it was envisaged - 18 from France and 108 at HAL, but also pursue the follow on clause of 63 additional units immediately. And get those 63 delivered directly from France, or in a split ratio. That would ensure fast acquisition.

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## he-man

janon said:


> That would require re-negotiating the contract, which means another two years.
> 
> Also, Eurofighter would cry foul and claim that they could have given a better financial bid if the numbers to be produced in Europe was different, and demand a new chance to bid.
> 
> The best thing to do is to sign this deal as it was envisaged - 18 from France and 108 at HAL, but also pursue the follow on clause of 63 additional units immediately. And get those 63 delivered directly from France, or in a split ratio. That would ensure fast acquisition.



our govt policies have really screwed us.

this deal should have been signed in 2011 at the very least and now we are not even sure of its signing??

what is the reason??

1)tot issues?

2)price??

3)corruption??

4)row over reliance vs hal??


i think its due to tot


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## [Bregs]

The last stages of deal has consumes 4 months alone and still its not signed because of there are numerous numbers of Indian sub contractors have to be chosen, finalized


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## he-man

[Bregs];4824621 said:


> The last stages of deal has consumes 4 months alone and still its not signed because of there are numerous numbers of Indian sub contractors have to be chosen, finalized



if we are willing we could have finalized the deal in 6 months flat
i don't know whats the problem here??

do we need 3 years to write a contract??

bullshit

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## vK_man

he-man said:


> if we are willing we could have finalized the deal in 6 months flat
> i don't know whats the problem here??
> 
> do we need 3 years to write a contract??
> 
> bullshit



Dassault manufacturer of Rafale shareholders are friends with Gandhi family .So I believe the bribes and kickbacks are being worked out.

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## Raje amar

Mannnnnnn............

More than a decade and still waiting for the jets.
Please sign the deal in the tenure of this Govt. only. Or it will take many more years after the elections.

Better we sign the contract for all the 200 birds of which at least 50 in flyaway condition.

Or cancelled the bid and award the contract to single party through FMS ( no US jet please).


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## halloweene

Absolutely Janon, and that is why Dassault had roposed to deliver first Rafales under a separate contract. They do understand India's rebuttal as Idia would have been more or less compelled to Rafale during negociations on MMRCA.
Dassault CEO privately said that the deal may possibly be signed before the end of year. It is a crazily complex program, as the ToT is really extensive.

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## Gessler

halloweene said:


> Absolutely Janon, and that is why Dassault had roposed to deliver first Rafales under a separate contract. They do understand India's rebuttal as Idia would have been more or less compelled to Rafale during negociations on MMRCA.
> Dassault CEO privately said that the deal may possibly be signed before the end of year. It is a crazily complex program, as the ToT is really extensive.



Hi Halloweene, nice to see you getting active on PDF as well.

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## ejaz007

*Indian Negotiator for Giant Rafale Fighter Deal Dies*


NEW DELHI &#8212; A top Indian defense official negotiating a $12 billion deal to buy France's Rafale fighter jets has died of a heart attack, further complicating talks over the delayed contract, officials said Thursday.

India chose France's Dassault Aviation in January 2012 for exclusive negotiations for 126 aircraft, but successive deadlines to complete one of the world's biggest defense contracts have slipped by.

Chances of Dassault meeting a target to conclude the huge and complicated production-sharing agreement this year are dwindling, with elections looming in the first half of next year.

Arun Kumar Bal, a joint secretary in the defense ministry in charge of air acquisitions, died Wednesday from a heart attack at the age of 52, meaning a replacement will now have to be named.

"We don't think his death will have any impact on the MMRCA," a defense ministry official, who asked not to be named, told AFP referring to the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft deal.

"The ministry will just have to name a replacement," he added.

But a senior officer familiar with defense acquisitions said Bal was part of the "decision-making process" and in charge of examining Dassault's ability to meet the requirements stipulated by the government.

"It's a fact that Bal was associated with the program for a while and so the new officiating person will need to familiarize themselves with his work," the officer said.

Defence Minister A.K. Antony, 73, is also currently in hospital where he is recovering from surgery on his prostate.

India is the world's biggest arms importer &#8212; partly a consequence of its weak domestic production capacity &#8212; and foreign defense companies are jostling for huge contracts for helicopters, planes and weaponry.

But as well as elections next year, the state's finances are strained with the government under pressure from investors and ratings agencies to keep the public deficit below its "red line" of 4.8 percent of gross domestic product.

Indian Negotiator for Giant Rafale Fighter Deal Dies | Defense News | defensenews.com


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## sovcomflot

ejaz007 said:


> *Indian Negotiator for Giant Rafale Fighter Deal Dies*
> 
> 
> NEW DELHI &#8212; A top Indian defense official negotiating a $12 billion deal to buy France's Rafale fighter jets has died of a heart attack, further complicating talks over the delayed contract, officials said Thursday.
> 
> India chose France's Dassault Aviation in January 2012 for exclusive negotiations for 126 aircraft, but successive deadlines to complete one of the world's biggest defense contracts have slipped by.
> 
> Chances of Dassault meeting a target to conclude the huge and complicated production-sharing agreement this year are dwindling, with elections looming in the first half of next year.
> 
> Arun Kumar Bal, a joint secretary in the defense ministry in charge of air acquisitions, died Wednesday from a heart attack at the age of 52, meaning a replacement will now have to be named.
> 
> "We don't think his death will have any impact on the MMRCA," a defense ministry official, who asked not to be named, told AFP referring to the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft deal.
> 
> "The ministry will just have to name a replacement," he added.
> 
> But a senior officer familiar with defense acquisitions said Bal was part of the "decision-making process" and in charge of examining Dassault's ability to meet the requirements stipulated by the government.
> 
> "It's a fact that Bal was associated with the program for a while and so the new officiating person will need to familiarize themselves with his work," the officer said.
> 
> Defence Minister A.K. Antony, 73, is also currently in hospital where he is recovering from surgery on his prostate.
> 
> India is the world's biggest arms importer &#8212; partly a consequence of its weak domestic production capacity &#8212; and foreign defense companies are jostling for huge contracts for helicopters, planes and weaponry.
> 
> But as well as elections next year, the state's finances are strained with the government under pressure from investors and ratings agencies to keep the public deficit below its "red line" of 4.8 percent of gross domestic product.
> 
> Indian Negotiator for Giant Rafale Fighter Deal Dies | Defense News | defensenews.com



This stinks . More like murdered.


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## Novice09

Look at our belief on UPA govt... I can't think that this is natural death...


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## meena24

The 18-month long negotiations between Dassault and India over the Rafale MMRCA deal may be heading to a conclusion, if information pieced together from various sources is to be believed.

On the Indian Air Force&#8217;s 81st anniversary last week, Dassault used the local media to congratulate the IAF by posting advertisements about the Rafale under a congratulatory banner.

&#8220;For the normally media-shy Dassault which did not even hold a customary press conference during the Aero India show earlier this year, despite winning one of the biggest fighter deals in the world, the current media blitz shows something is brewing&#8221;, said a source familiar with the developments.

Since India awarded Dassault the contract to supply 126 fighter aircraft last year, then estimated to be worth $12 billion, negotiations have run into difficulty over transfer of technology and about the status of the lead integrator. Dassault was expected to provide 18 Rafale fighter jets in "fly-away" condition while state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited(HAL) was to manufacture the rest in India.

Until a couple of months ago, Dassault was reported to pushing for two separate contracts to be signed - one for the ready-made jets, and another for the rest to be built by HAL; a proposal supposedly rejected by India.

However, India&#8217;s dire need to supplement its depleting fighter aircraft fleet with multi-role fighter aircraft may be pushing it to take a less rigid stance at the negotiation table. One line of argument going around is that India would increase the order of jets to be flown in from France to 25 or 30 up from 18, until a way out has been found over technical and other issues concerning the manufacture of the remaining 90 or 100 aircraft in India.

This would give both parties about two years to get their act together given that the Dassault factory 
in France can only assemble about 25-30 planes in a year of which slightly less than half is committed to the French Air Force.

While the upcoming 2014 general elections are often cited as a reason for delaying the signing of the 
contract, even if negotiations do come to a completion, pressure from the Indian Air Force (IAF) may 
force the government to allocate funds for the purchase even in an election year.

When asked at a press conference last week, about the depleting fleet, IAF chief NAK Browne said, 
"If the MMRCA deal isn't signed, there will be a rapid decline in fighter numbers between 2017 and 2022. It is imperative that the deal is signed quickly".

&#8220;RAFALE International sees the MMRCA program as much more than a mere acquisition process. It is the opportunity to develop a large scale strategic partnership and industrial cooperation between India & France covering in-depth technological and production cooperation,&#8221; Dassault says on its Rafale India website. &#8220;The offer is also totally supported by the strong political commitment of France towards India in all fields of Defense cooperation.&#8221;

Dassault has entered into a joint venture agreement with the Anil Ambani owned Reliance Industries to manufacture aircraft spares in India, presumably as part of the offsets program.

The 18-month long negotiations between Dassault and India over the Rafale MMRCA deal may be heading to a conclusion, if information pieced together from various sources is to be believed.

On the Indian Air Forces 81st anniversary last week, Dassault used the local media to congratulate the IAF by posting advertisements about the Rafale under a congratulatory banner.

For the normally media-shy Dassault which did not even hold a customary press conference during the Aero India show earlier this year, despite winning one of the biggest fighter deals in the world, the current media blitz shows something is brewing, said a source familiar with the developments.

Since India awarded Dassault the contract to supply 126 fighter aircraft last year, then estimated to be worth $12 billion, negotiations have run into difficulty over transfer of technology and about the status of the lead integrator. Dassault was expected to provide 18 Rafale fighter jets in "fly-away" condition while state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited(HAL) was to manufacture the rest in India.

Until a couple of months ago, Dassault was reported to pushing for two separate contracts to be signed - one for the ready-made jets, and another for the rest to be built by HAL; a proposal supposedly rejected by India.

However, Indias dire need to supplement its depleting fighter aircraft fleet with multi-role fighter aircraft may be pushing it to take a less rigid stance at the negotiation table. One line of argument going around is that India would increase the order of jets to be flown in from France to 25 or 30 up from 18, until a way out has been found over technical and other issues concerning the manufacture of the remaining 90 or 100 aircraft in India.

This would give both parties about two years to get their act together given that the Dassault factory 
in France can only assemble about 25-30 planes in a year of which slightly less than half is committed to the French Air Force.

While the upcoming 2014 general elections are often cited as a reason for delaying the signing of the 
contract, even if negotiations do come to a completion, pressure from the Indian Air Force (IAF) may 
force the government to allocate funds for the purchase even in an election year.

When asked at a press conference last week, about the depleting fleet, IAF chief NAK Browne said, 
"If the MMRCA deal isn't signed, there will be a rapid decline in fighter numbers between 2017 and 2022. It is imperative that the deal is signed quickly".

RAFALE International sees the MMRCA program as much more than a mere acquisition process. It is the opportunity to develop a large scale strategic partnership and industrial cooperation between India & France covering in-depth technological and production cooperation, Dassault says on its Rafale India website. The offer is also totally supported by the strong political commitment of France towards India in all fields of Defense cooperation.

Dassault has entered into a joint venture agreement with the Anil Ambani owned Reliance Industries to manufacture aircraft spares in India, presumably as part of the offsets program.

I am posting the source of the News here, I don't want to edit that particular Post

http://www.defenseworld.net/news/9234/Dassault_Woos_India_Sensing_MMRCA_Deal_Conclusion#.UlqoR91e3Df


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## meena24

@ Aviation Experts 
@Abingdonboy @ Sancho

Please Clarify whether we will get 25-30 Jets as suggested in the news within a span of 2-3 Years as in the News. 

my Comments:

I personally believe we must ask Dassault to assemble at least 50 Jets and provide them in a fly away conditions so that IAF will able to attain full strength of 42 Squadrons by 2022.


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## skysthelimit

*MMRCA Deal By March 2014: IAF Deputy Chief *







The MMRCA fighter deal will be signed within this financial year, Air Marshal S. Sukumar, Deputy Chief of Air Staff has said today. He was speaking at the 8th International Conference on Energising Indian Aerospace Conference jointly organized by Confederation of Indian Industry, Indian Air Force & Centre for Air Power Studies in New Delhi.

Livefist: MMRCA Deal By March 2014

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## Johny D

*India to finalize $15 billion Rafale deal by March, Indian Air Force says*

NEW DELHI: India will finalize a $15 billion deal to buy 126 Rafale fighter jets from France's Dassault Aviation by March 2014, an Indian Air Force official said on Thursday, after the deal had been held up by differences over local manufacturing. 

India picked the Rafale for exclusive negotiations in January 2012 after a bidding contest against Eurofighter Typhoon aircraft, made by a consortium involving EADS, Finmeccanica and BAE Systems. 

However, there were differences over the role of India's state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd in manufacturing the jets. 

Air Marshal S Sukumar, deputy chief of Air staff, told an aerospace conference the deal would be signed within the current financial year, according to a statement issued by conference organizer, the Confederation of Indian Industry. 

*Under the deal, Dassault is expected to send 18 ready-made jets* and would manufacture the *rest in India. Hindustan Aeronautics will be its lead partner. *

Dassault had earlier expressed doubts about the ability of the local partner to make such a sophisticated fighter. Hindustan Aeronautics has been developing a light combat aircraft since the early 1980s with no success so far. 

A spokesman for Dassault declined to comment. The French company is still hoping to finalize the deal by the end of the 2013. 

India's government wants to encourage Indian companies to partner with foreign suppliers to reduce its reliance on imports and boost a domestic defence industry that is dominated by underperforming public sector companies. 

A separate tender to buy and build 56 military transport planes at an estimated cost of 119 billion rupees has been extended by two months, Sukumar also said. The defence ministry launched the tender in May to replace an ageing fleet of Avro jets. 

The ministry had originally said the transport planes deal must be struck between a foreign supplier and an Indian private company. However, heavy industries minister Praful Patel said last week that public-sector firms already making products for the armed forces should have been allowed to take part in the bidding. 

The defence ministry has said it will look into Patel's complaint, potentially delaying the tender. Many of India's foreign arms purchases run into long delays because of accusations of corruption and bureaucratic complications.

India to finalize $15 billion Rafale deal by March, Indian Air Force says - The Times of India


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## halloweene

Audition of french MoD by assembly



> Mr. Folliot, the White Paper states that the fighter aircraft will have 225 aircraft in 2025. To achieve this will require Rafale and Mirage 2000 D renovated. The draft LPM provides control of 26 Rafale - 11 in 2014, 11 in 2015 and four in 2016. We will have to eventually replace the Mirage 2000, also does not order the 2016 does mark the end of the commands of Rafale. The text also provides for the development of the new F3R standard Rafale cause an expenditure of  1.1 billion, which must be added 700 million for the aircraft of the future - namely the UCAV that n 'is at present at the stage of studies.
> 
> I am convinced that we will succeed and, in 2014, we know a successful export. If this was not the case would proceed to a revision in 2015.



And S. Sukumar recently stated that deal will be signed before end of fiscal year.

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## sancho

*Crossposting from IDF, credits to Picdelamirand-oil*


Interview with "Vedomosti" President and CEO of Dassault Aviation...


...*- Last year you won an exclusive tender in India Procurement fighter Rafale. However, the contract with the Indian Ministry of Defence is still not signed. Does your company have time to sign him before the presidential elections in India, scheduled for July 2014 ?*

- ( Laughs. ) And that Russian is so well versed in what is happening in India?


*- This theme is very interested in Russian aviapromyshlenniki .*

- Prepares a huge contract . Rafale sale to India - it is for us something very important . Negotiations began last year, they continue, all is going well . It is always difficult to predict the date of the end of negotiations and the signing of the contract. But we are seeing more activity on the part of our team and the Indian authorities . On such a huge deal to a lot of the time. Everything is complicated by the fact that the Rafale will be manufactured in India - requires a detailed agreement with the Indian aviapromyshlennikami . I am confident that this contract will be signed. And what will happen next year in connection with the Indian elections , I do not presume to comment .


*- What is the total amount of the contract ?*

- That's confidential information , you must ask this from the Indian government .


*- As far as the estimate of $ 20 billion ?* (From the interview in French I hear only "a milliard" due to bad prononciation (see the video))

- No, it's much more.


*- Tell us about the cooperation with the Russian company KRTV . Will come with her &#8203;&#8203;Indian Rafale aircraft weapons ?*

- I can not comment on it. Rafale equipment is entirely dependent on the contract with the Government of India , it must address these. This is the first . And second, if the Indian authorities decide to equip their aircraft by Russian rockets and if the French authorities will give this good , I do not see any problem in having to work with the Russian manufacturers and integrate their product...


...*- Could you confirm the information Saab that the Rafale flight hour costs 16 000 euros ?*

- That's not true . One hour flight Rafale costs about 13,000 euros. But the question is , how much is flight hour Saab aircraft in the same class !


*- They claim that their flight hour Gripen fighter is $ 4,000.*

- I should note that $ 13,000 per flight hour Rafale - a figure provided by the French Air Force , which themselves use the Rafale, fighting on it and know all the operating conditions of the aircraft . And is not that Dassault Aviation itself alone called such data . I'm not sure that the figure provided by Saab regarding Gripen, is correct. This commercial information for marketing purposes. While it is clear that the Gripen flying hour to be cheaper than the Rafale, - it's a completely different aircraft . It 's like comparing a little car with a big BMW. In single-engine Gripen , an American , I Rafale - the two French . This is a different category of aircraft, all comparisons are flawed .


*- Why are your negotiations with India before entering into a contract for the supply of Rafale took a few years?*

- The contract is huge and affects the interests of a large group of industrialists , since we are talking about an assembly in India. In India, we have a company with which we are working on this contract. To settle all takes time . But, in my opinion, for India, it is even very fast! ( Laughs. ) I know India and I can say that for a contract of this importance our discussion moved soon enough...

ÂÅÄÎÌÎÑÒÈ - Èíòåðâüþ - Ýðèê Òðàïïüå, ïðåçèäåíò è ãåíäèðåêòîð Dassault Aviation - Âèäåî

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## Taygibay

Everyone should keep calm, especially Indians! The Rafale is coming to the IAF!

What was lost in translation apparently is TOT?
I mean, apart from Dassault qualms over HAL's abilities which neither the slower than expected SU_30 production ramp-up
nor the LCA dispelled, the rest of TOT is darn complicated business?
How many times have we heard complaints about the end of such deals being a single desi screwdrivers plant?
If you assess the present state of industry in India honestly, you know that it is not holding all its promises, right?

Now let us suppose that France/Dassault want to uphold their end of the deal honestly ( instead of the slander often heard )
in which case, the details of the organization and contract are indeed where the devil lays? Who does what? When is company X
better suited than a HAL subsidiary both financially, on an industrial standpoint or timeframe-wise? At what real rhythm can the
technology transfer be expected to succeed, not just hoped for on a blue moon or wishing well/prayer, etc?
It better take some time and deliver results or two things will ensue? First, the IAF will get its planes later than expected and ...
possibly not up to par quality wise but more importantly, second the TOT will yield limited results? And considering that if the deal
is now over 20 billion $ then we are talking about 10$ billion investments in Indian aero-mil tech industry? Doesn't securing a proper
contract seem worthwhile to insure that the money and knowledge get in V hands in the end? 

And also, let us keep in mind that Indian Rafales will come with adaptations from the French standard which have to be solved too!

In an ideal world, brackets would be given, i.e. what some here wrote about, 18 to 50 ready-made jets possibility depending on circumstances
or more SKD or a variable timeframe to procure a given kit or more latitude to give work to private sector firms if HAL cannot deliver, etc?
Sadly, though that would be fine by the GoI or Rafale International, you can bet most actors in such contracts ( especially HAL ) are fighting
such sliding rules adaptative solutions with all they've got to secure the loot apart from performance mishaps instead? No perfect world there!

My bet is the good news are just around the corner. After all, as most of us have mentioned at some point or another, both sides have too much
to either lose or gain not to succeed? And relief sighs will be heard from Palavas-les-Flots to Nainital ( well for mili stuff maybe more Dehradun )!

Fingers crossed and spirits up, good day all, Tay.


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## sancho

Crossposting from the MP forum (credits to Olybrius):



> Dassault boss wants to sign before elections in India
> 
> _Eric Trappier, CEO of Dassault Aviation make every effort to sign the Rafale contract in India before next spring.
> [...] "With our Indian partners, whether the Ministry of Defence or industrial, we do the necessary to finalize the contract before the elections," said Eric Trappier on BFM/TV. "Then it will be up to the Indian government to decide whether to sign it before the elections or not to make an election issue and sign it later," he said.
> [...]
> France also hopes to sell Rafale to Qatar , faster than in other countries that have expressed interest in this multi-role aircraft such as Malaysia, the United Arab Emirates and Brazil._



http://www.militaryphotos.net/forum...-Rafale-News&p=6908949&viewfull=1#post6908949

http://www.challenges.fr/entreprise...er-le-rafale-avant-les-elections-en-inde.html


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## IND151

Russia open to arming Indian Rafale | idrw.org


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## he-man

this deal is a disaster for india.............i don't care what ppl say but its unaffordable for us considering the huge costs of above 20 billion as the above interview mentions.

especially for a 4.5 gen fighter this cost is insane.
1)puny and small aesa radar due to small nose

2)rejected everywhere due to cost

3)cannot fly long without drop tanks(yes it matters)

4)no ability to supercruise(yes it can at mach 1.2 but thats not very good is it)

cost=above 100 million per unit!!!

are we insane to buy this

answer=yes we are,,,,,just like we paid 40 million per plane for mirage 2000 upgrade

possibility---------we have taken kickbacks from rafale


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## Storm Force

For wat is a STOP GAP MMRCA until PAK FA comes its a hidious amount of cost.

We should spend the time and money on more mirage2000-5 ,,, LCA TEJAS MK2 & future work on FGFA

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## Taygibay

It seems both of the above posters don't dabble in reality all that much?

Rafale was not rejected everywhere on account of cost. That is an oversimplification that hints to a lack of knowledge in military procurements. In many instances, it came out of evaluations first and was not picked ( which is different from rejected BTW ) for political reasons i.e. nations infeudated to the US or getting funds for military purchases directly from them. In one, it was picked but the process later faltered i.e. Brazil. In at least one, it was chosen only to see the stupidity of the French government negotiation team lose it all by trying to link the deal to other contracts i.e. Morocco. And so on?
On technical points also, kid's stuff is the norm. Yes the Rafale nose is smaller due to design but it does not make the capacities of the RBE2 AESA "puny" as a result ( est. 220km for 1 to 3 SqM RCS )? The same goes for the supercruise! Or, said otherwise, since the IAF selected it after a rigorous evaluation recognized globally as one of the 2 acceptable birds in a great field of competitors, if your arguments are that it is not good enough, He-man, shouldn't you be venting your rage on an Indian forum or writing directly to your armed forces and MoD to chastise their stupidity? Hum?

I can see many reasons for some Indians to be unhappy with the present situation.
Delays in the procurement MRCA to MMRCA to dragging on contract negos? All of which are India's fault?
Cost which is a shared blame affair but still below many other choices including Typhoon or Dassault would not have emerged as L1?
As for TEJAS and FGFA, both are now suffering set-backs and/or delays and don't bring any promise of timed deliveries over MMRCA at present?

Which brings us to the most neglected point in the whole affair : ToT. GoI chose to try to "kill 2 birds with one stone" here, not MiG/SAAB/Dassault, Boeing, etc!
Had procurement been deemed an uber priority, the plant at Mérignac would be churning out IAF Rafales as we speak? By adding the ToT requirement to an urgent acquisition process, GoI created the nightmare!
The counterpart of this is that it plays on price which virtually everyone forgets. If the monetary envelope of the deal is really at say 25B $ or Euros, 12.5 of those are coming back to India in capability development or plants? So that the real cost is half of what is bandied on fora?

Major facepalm to have forgotten that, huh? And if you think that this will not benefit the local industry, please remember how successful and on time and in budget either LCA or Kaveri are?
Major facepalm once again to have forgotten that, huh?

Come on guys! Think before you post and rant? YES, fully agreed, this is taking too long and costs a lot!
The rest of what you contend though is as the Bard said : So much ado about nothing!

Good day all, Tay.

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## Abingdonboy

Taygibay said:


> It seems both of the above posters don't dabble in reality all that much?


This is true unfortunalty for all us members who actually try and stick to a sane line of reasoning on PDF!

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## SR-91

he-man said:


> this deal is a disaster for india.............i don't care what ppl say but its unaffordable for us considering the huge costs of above 20 billion as the above interview mentions.
> 
> especially for a 4.5 gen fighter this cost is insane.
> 1)puny and small aesa radar due to small nose
> 
> 2)rejected everywhere due to cost
> 
> 3)cannot fly long without drop tanks(yes it matters)
> 
> 4)no ability to supercruise(yes it can at mach 1.2 but thats not very good is it)
> 
> cost=above 100 million per unit!!!
> 
> are we insane to buy this
> 
> answer=yes we are,,,,,just like we paid 40 million per plane for mirage 2000 upgrade
> 
> possibility---------we have taken kickbacks from rafale







Bro, YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR!!!

French tech is one of the best.


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## Dash

he-man said:


> this deal is a disaster for india.............i don't care what ppl say but its unaffordable for us considering the huge costs of above 20 billion as the above interview mentions.
> 
> especially for a 4.5 gen fighter this cost is insane.
> 1)puny and small aesa radar due to small nose
> 
> 2)rejected everywhere due to cost
> 
> 3)cannot fly long without drop tanks(yes it matters)
> 
> 4)no ability to supercruise(yes it can at mach 1.2 but thats not very good is it)
> 
> cost=above 100 million per unit!!!
> 
> are we insane to buy this
> 
> answer=yes we are,,,,,just like we paid 40 million per plane for mirage 2000 upgrade
> 
> possibility---------we have taken kickbacks from rafale



Do we have any dislike button?...buddy, why by Arbus a300 MRTT when you have IL76?...


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## he-man

Dash said:


> Do we have any dislike button?...buddy, why by Arbus a300 MRTT when you have IL76?...



il-76 is pretty old but russian is going for il-76 mbdmk2 something,,,pls check
but yes considering our defence budget we should stick to relatively cheaper stuff,no doubt


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## Dash

he-man said:


> il-76 is pretty old but russian is going for il-76 mbdmk2 something,,,pls check
> but yes considering our defence budget we should stick to relatively cheaper stuff,no doubt



Cheaper stuff may not be the right way to go. Remember whatever is cheaper is not cheaper in long run....+ we are not biying planes for IAF only, we are also buying for our industry and that doesn't come cheap..

Take the example of Boeing setting up a high altitude flight testing facility for offset terms for P8I deal, do you think we could have achived this Illushin? or Sukhoi?


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## Abingdonboy

he-man said:


> il-76 is pretty old but russian is going for il-76 mbdmk2 something,,,pls check
> but yes considering our defence budget we should stick to relatively cheaper stuff,no doubt


India is beyond this stage buddy. Cheap is not always cheerful. Look into life cycle costs. I've literally repeated this to you countless times now- over their life spans Russian equipment is FAR more costly to maintain than Western equipment. 


Look at the tanker deal, when life cycle costs were factored in the A330 MRTT won BOTH TIMES.


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## he-man

Abingdonboy said:


> India is beyond this stage buddy. Cheap is not always cheerful. Look into life cycle costs. I've literally repeated this to you countless times now- over their life spans Russian equipment is FAR more costly to maintain than Western equipment.
> 
> 
> Look at the tanker deal, when life cycle costs were factored in the A330 MRTT won BOTH TIMES.



as i said il-76 is old and not worthy
i am only saying we must do jv and bring down the costs further


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## sancho

Latest Rafale F3+ with AESA, DDM NG, FSO-IT, GaN AESA jammers...

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## Abingdonboy

he-man said:


> as i said il-76 is old and not worthy
> i am only saying we must do jv and bring down the costs further


You're aware it's the IL-78 that we/I was talking about wrt the tanker competition. And why enter into a JV with Russia when the A330 MRTT is simply the best such system available on the planet? 


It cracks me up to hear YOU talking about costs when you're the one advocating bringing in a brand new twin-engined platform into the IAF's fleet (Su-34)!


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## he-man

Abingdonboy said:


> You're aware it's the IL-78 that we/I was talking about wrt the tanker competition. And why enter into a JV with Russia when the A330 MRTT is simply the best such system available on the planet?
> 
> 
> It cracks me up to hear YOU talking about costs when you're the one advocating bringing in a brand new twin-engined platform into the IAF's fleet (Su-34)!




u can keep harping on the same shit but seeing the systems that went into upgrade i don't think it made sense to upgrade a 30 year old 3 rd generation plane upgraded into 4 th gen for a tune of 40 million per aircraft.

and its not justme,,,many ppl believe it was not a wise decision at all


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## Abingdonboy

he-man said:


> and its not justme,,,many ppl believe it was not a wise decision at all


Many people believed the world was flat for the longest time- did that make them right?


The IAF argued its case and won, they made a logical decision, if you are simply unable to see this then what more can I say? 


@sancho @Dillinger @janon anything more to add?


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## he-man

Abingdonboy said:


> Many people believed the world was flat for the longest time- did that make them right?
> 
> 
> The IAF argued its case and won, they made a logical decision, if you are simply unable to see this then what more can I say?
> 
> 
> @sancho @Dillinger @janon anything more to add?




iaf is not above all that they will not be questioned for stupid decisions by anyone

this comes in one of those stupid decisions


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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> Many people believed the world was flat for the longest time- did that make them right?
> 
> 
> The IAF argued its case and won, they made a logical decision, if you are simply unable to see this then what more can I say?
> 
> 
> @sancho @Dillinger @janon anything more to add?



Already done and we have talked about it in many threads before. He-man just don't get the importance of the M2Ks and is sticking to his superficial views, but there is more behind the upgrades of M2K, just like there are more cost behind the Mig 29 upgrade, or that there is more behind the MMRCA than just a fighter. There are people that are criticising the upgrade of the F22 as well, because they question the need of moderinising a fighter that never had seen a war, which doesn't make sense as well.

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## Abingdonboy

he-man said:


> this comes in one of those stupid decisions


Says YOU.


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## he-man

sancho said:


> Already done and we have talked about it in many threads before. He-man just don't get the importance of the M2Ks and is sticking to his superficial views, but there is more behind the upgrades of M2K, just like there are more cost behind the Mig 29 upgrade, or that there is more behind the MMRCA than just a fighter. There are people that are criticising the upgrade of the F22 as well, because they question the need of moderinising a fighter that never had seen a war, which doesn't make sense as well.




pls don'r equate india with usa first of all

second it will still fly for only 13-15 years more even after upgrades

third u are just assuming we will get something behind the scene

fourth this deal took seven years to ink and was only inked as a stop gap measure,,,,,we had no choice ....................not out of great value as u are quoting 


Abingdonboy said:


> Says YOU.



yes,,,says me

unfortunately foreign agents like u will always praise such useless deals


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## janon

Abingdonboy said:


> Many people believed the world was flat for the longest time- did that make them right?
> 
> 
> The IAF argued its case and won, they made a logical decision, if you are simply unable to see this then what more can I say?
> 
> 
> @sancho @Dillinger @janon anything more to add?


 
Nothing more than what we have already said N number of times in the past two days. There is already a multi-page thread on the sam subject, where we explored all the arguments and counter arguments. As I finally said in that thread, there comes a point in any topic where further back and forth is pointless.

I have repeated so many times that flyaway cost is only a small percentage of the life cycle costs and associated costs of a platform, so comparing the upgrade price to the price of a new platform doesn't really make sense. And that western stuff are pricier up front but far easier and cheaper to maintain than russian stuff. That the IAF would have taken all this into consideration and argued their case to the finance ministry, to get the green signal for the upgrade.

In India, the services by themselves don't get to spend taxpayers' money, at least two ministries (which are institutionally set up to counter each other) also have to agree to every nitty gritty.

But there is no point in repeating all this to people who have made up an opinion that it is all a scam, and nothing will persuade them to change their minds. If the intention is to unconstructively rant about everybody being idiots and assholes and f*ckers, and India being doomed and so on, and keep opening threads to keep repeating that, there is no point bringing sense and substance to the so called discussion. I am dignifying it by calling it a discussion.

The following is a good guideline on whether or not to discuss or debate something:

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## he-man

janon said:


> Nothing more than what we have already said N number of times in the past two days. There is already a multi-page thread on the sam subject, where we explored all the arguments and counter arguments. As I finally said in that thread, there comes a point in any topic where further back and forth is pointless.
> 
> I have repeated so many times that flyaway cost is only a small percentage of the life cycle costs and associated costs of a platform, so comparing the upgrade price to the price of a new platform doesn't really make sense. And that western stuff are pricier up front but far easier and cheaper to maintain than russian stuff. That the IAF would have taken all this into consideration and argued their case to the finance ministry, to get the green signal for the upgrade.
> 
> In India, the services by themselves don't get to spend taxpayers' money, at least two ministries (which are institutionally set up to counter each other) also have to agree to every nitty gritty.
> 
> But there is no point in repeating all this to people who have made up an opinion that it is all a scam, and nothing will persuade them to change their minds. If the intention is to unconstructively rant about everybody being idiots and assholes and f*ckers, and India being doomed and so on, and keep opening threads to keep repeating that, there is no point bringing sense and substance to the so called discussion. I am dignifying it by calling it a discussion.
> 
> The following is a good guideline on whether or not to discuss or debate something:
> 
> View attachment 10417




for the love of god its not only about 40 million

what are we getting and for how much time is also an issue here

if u are so confident,tell me what did we get for 40 million??

why did we take 7 years to sign the deal??
why didn't we go for engine upgrade?
why didn't we consider hal-iai joint bid to equip it for about 11 milion per aircraft with better stuff??

these questions need answr dude


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## janon

he-man said:


> for the love of god its not only about 40 million
> 
> what are we getting and for how much time is also an issue here
> 
> if u are so confident,tell me what did we get for 40 million??
> 
> why did we take 7 years to sign the deal??
> why didn't we go for engine upgrade?
> why didn't we consider hal-iai joint bid to equip it for about 11 milion per aircraft with better stuff??
> 
> these questions need answr dude


 
What has any of this got to do with the point of the post you quoted, which is about when to stop a discussion?


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## he-man

janon said:


> What has any of this got to do with the point of the post you quoted, which is about when to stop a discussion?



was a mistake but there are number of gaping holes in this deal

maybe its like a tatra truck scam,,,who knows??


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## he-man

janon said:


> Jesus frikking christ, dude! Are you really reading the posts you are quoting?



i said it dosen't matter.

it was a mistake.........................i was still on deal


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## sancho

he-man said:


> pls don'r equate india with usa first of all



First try to understand before jumping into conclusions, because I didn't compared India with the US, but your flawed logic about the M2K upgrades with those who criticise the F22 upgrade.



he-man said:


> second it will still fly for only 13-15 years more even after upgrades



And that is exactly the time we need to field a new platform into specific roles, including the necessary tactics and strategies behind it, till we can effectively use it. It's not the time extention that makes the upgrade costly, but the addition of capabilities, ToT or constriction of new facilities. The first is necessary, the latter are not and why I criticise them as well.



he-man said:


> third u are just assuming we will get something behind the scene



Not really, it was widely stated by tje defence minister and MoD officials throughout the competition how important ToT and offsets are in MMRCA and how Indias procurement policies in the last few years were changed to increase the benefits for our industries. Just like it was reported by IAF and IN officials that IAF wanted the M2K-5 in the first MRCA competition, which would had been the fast to induct stop gap, but the aims of MoD changed and M-MRCA was created.
Btw, MRCA was aimed at $10 billions and that for M2K-5s, Mig 29SMT, Gripen C/D, or F16 B52, which divided by 126 means $79 millions each. That M-MRCA would be costlier was clear the minute MoD went for it, which is why the estimates went up to $12 to 15 billions ($95 to 119 millions each fighter), depending on source. So MoD (unlike you) was aware about the costs of the deal, especially by shortlisting the 2 most expensive fighters, that however also offered the best industrial (ToT/offset) packages in return. So they don't have issues with the costs, nor with the delays, unless it gets us that in return what they hope to get.


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## he-man

sancho said:


> First try to understand before jumping into conclusions, because I didn't compared India with the US, but your flawed logic about the M2K upgrades with those who criticise the F22 upgrade.
> 
> 
> 
> And that is exactly the time we need to field a new platform into specific roles, including the necessary tactics and strategies behind it, till we can effectively use it. It's not the time extention that makes the upgrade costly, but the addition of capabilities, ToT or constriction of new facilities. The first is necessary, the latter are not and why I criticise them as well.
> 
> 
> 
> Not really, it was widely stated by tje defence minister and MoD officials throughout the competition how important ToT and offsets are in MMRCA and how Indias procurement policies in the last few years were changed to increase the benefits for our industries. Just like it was reported by IAF and IN officials that IAF wanted the M2K-5 in the first MRCA competition, which would had been the fast to induct stop gap, but the aims of MoD changed and M-MRCA was created.
> Btw, MRCA was aimed at $10 billions and that for M2K-5s, Mig 29SMT, Gripen C/D, or F16 B52, which divided by 126 means $79 millions each. That M-MRCA would be costlier was clear the minute MoD went for it, which is why the estimates went up to $12 to 15 billions ($95 to 119 millions each fighter), depending on source. So MoD (unlike you) was aware about the costs of the deal, especially by shortlisting the 2 most expensive fighters, that however also offered the best industrial (ToT/offset) packages in return. So they don't have issues with the costs, nor with the delays, unless it gets us that in return what they hope to get.




ur assumptions are valid but i am adressing a broader issue here

1)why was this deal not signed in 2000-2005 period,,,,,when the fighters had half lifeleft and were way way cheaper?

2)why was hal-iai consortium rejected instead of them offering an almost equal package for one forth th price?

3)why was there no engine upgrade even in this hefty deal??

these are valid points although i know we needed aircrafts urgently so hadno option.


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## sancho

he-man said:


> ur assumptions are valid but i am adressing a broader issue here
> 
> 1)why was this deal not signed in 2000-2005 period,,,,,when the fighters had half lifeleft and were way way cheaper?
> 
> 2)why was hal-iai consortium rejected instead of them offering an almost equal package for one forth th price?
> 
> 3)why was there no engine upgrade even in this hefty deal??
> 
> these are valid points although i know we needed aircrafts urgently so hadno option.



Why would the upgrade had been cheaper in 2005? Not the timeline but the required capability is important for the cost.

There was never a HAL-IAI consortium, nor a joint bid. Infact, most of the Israeli stuff that could be on offer are from Rafael, but that are only radar avionics and weapons, but doesn't include the overhaul of the airframe and other parts of the upgrades, which only Dassault could had been done. So instead of splitting the upgrade to 2 sources, they decided for one, which clearly is the better decision, while weapons and parts of the techs are procurued in competitions. We already have decided for the SPICE 2000 and not the French AASM 1000, the competition for LDPs is still going on, so we basically only rejected the possibility of an Israeli radar and AAMs, which was the better choice too, since Python and Derby missiles can't be carried at the rear fuselage stations.

Because the western engines have more life than Russian once, which needed to be upgraded, while the M2Ks didn't.

There are answers for questions, but normally one first states these questions and gathers infos, before complaining about things, based on personal conclusions.


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## he-man

sancho said:


> Why would the upgrade had been cheaper in 2005? Not the timeline but the required capability is important for the cost.
> 
> There was never a HAL-IAI consortium, nor a joint bid. Infact, most of the Israeli stuff that could be on offer are from Rafael, but that are only radar avionics and weapons, but doesn't include the overhaul of the airframe and other parts of the upgrades, which only Dassault could had been done. So instead of splitting the upgrade to 2 sources, they decided for one, which clearly is the better decision, while weapons and parts of the techs are procurued in competitions. We already have decided for the SPICE 2000 and not the French AASM 1000, the competition for LDPs is still going on, so we basically only rejected the possibility of an Israeli radar and AAMs, which was the better choice too, since Python and Derby missiles can't be carried at the rear fuselage stations.
> 
> Because the western engines have more life than Russian once, which needed to be upgraded, while the M2Ks didn't.
> 
> There are answers for questions, but normally one first states these questions and gathers infos, before complaining about things, based on personal conclusions.




i think u need to brush up ur knowledge

there was a counter offer from hal-iai and it was rejected due to a useless law passed that debarred mlu from anyone except the oem of that particular equipment.go and check please

regarding engines they are not modern 4 th generation engine in mirage 2000,,,,its an old 3rd generation one whose 25 years have been over.do u wanna bet it will be good for 20 more years??think again

i am asking whats the point of refurbishing a 3 rd gen aeroplane to 4 th in 40 million??

there is nothing state of art even after this ugrade 


sancho said:


> Why would the upgrade had been cheaper in 2005? Not the timeline but the required capability is important for the cost.
> 
> There was never a HAL-IAI consortium, nor a joint bid. Infact, most of the Israeli stuff that could be on offer are from Rafael, but that are only radar avionics and weapons, but doesn't include the overhaul of the airframe and other parts of the upgrades, which only Dassault could had been done. So instead of splitting the upgrade to 2 sources, they decided for one, which clearly is the better decision, while weapons and parts of the techs are procurued in competitions. We already have decided for the SPICE 2000 and not the French AASM 1000, the competition for LDPs is still going on, so we basically only rejected the possibility of an Israeli radar and AAMs, which was the better choice too, since Python and Derby missiles can't be carried at the rear fuselage stations.
> 
> Because the western engines have more life than Russian once, which needed to be upgraded, while the M2Ks didn't.
> 
> There are answers for questions, but normally one first states these questions and gathers infos, before complaining about things, based on personal conclusions.


are u willing to forego other blunders too done by indian govt?

1)getting new mig-29 k and kub without even a pesa radar and settling for a lowly zhuk-me??
2)no agreement on super sukhoi even till now?
3)even the new sukhoi produced have the same old bars pesa which is old,,,why not improve?
4)barak-8 delay when p-15 are ready?/
5)gorkshov without barak-8 so totally toothless for air attacks??
6)super slow submarine production and upgrade??
7)still using blind t-72 ans shunning arjuns??

the policy is flawed at the very top level and we are left wanting in everything


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## sancho

he-man said:


> i think u need to brush up ur knowledge
> 
> there was a counter offer from hal-iai and it was rejected due to a useless law passed that debarred mlu from anyone except the oem of that particular equipment.go and check please



Do I? Who is the manufacturer of Litening LDP, Python V, Derby and SPICE PGMs? Rafael not IAI. So IAI can't offer most parts of the possible israeli goodies, just the radar basically, since the rest would have been taken from the French anyway. We are not talking about a Russian fighter here! 




he-man said:


> regarding engines they are not modern 4 th generation engine in mirage 2000,,,,its an old 3rd generation one whose 25 years have been over.do u wanna bet it will be good for 20 more years??think again



Funny, since neither the smoking RD33-3 series engines that our Mig 29UPG now gets are considered as modern 4th gen engines and still we had to buy them. Why? once because the newer RD 33MK couldn't be used on the older airframes, secondly because the older engines had no life left. So you are complaining again, without seeing the facts.

The rest was already discussed and has nothing to do with the MMRCA anyway, so let's stick to Rafale or MMRCA fighters here again.

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## he-man

sancho said:


> Do I? Who is the manufacturer of Litening LDP, Python V, Derby and SPICE PGMs? Rafael not IAI. So IAI can't offer most parts of the possible israeli goodies, just the radar basically, since the rest would have been taken from the French anyway. We are not talking about a Russian fighter here!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Funny, since neither the smoking RD33-3 series engines that our Mig 29UPG now gets are considered as modern 4th gen engines and still we had to buy them. Why? once because the newer RD 33MK couldn't be used on the older airframes, secondly because the older engines had no life left. So you are complaining again, without seeing the facts.
> 
> The rest was already discussed and has nothing to do with the MMRCA anyway, so let's stick to Rafale or MMRCA fighters here again.



all right maybe rafael was involved too

but its 100 percent true man,,,there was a counter offer for sure rejected on dubious grounds


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## he-man

found this on the spectra







can anybody tell me about the jammer shown here??

so it means rafale dosen't need a dedicated podded jammer??

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## Dillinger

he-man said:


> found this on the spectra
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> can anybody tell me about the jammer shown here??
> 
> so it means rafale dosen't need a dedicated podded jammer??



Now that you've posted this can you spot your error regarding the Spectra? The above details should lead you in the right direction.

For DOA/ADF and against certain ADGE ground components, yes the Rafale will not need a dedicated jamming pod.

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## he-man

Dillinger said:


> Now that you've posted this can you spot your error regarding the Spectra? The above details should lead you in the right direction.
> 
> For DOA/ADF and against certain ADGE ground components, yes the Rafale will not need a dedicated jamming pod.


is this jammer comparable to sap 18??


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## Dillinger

he-man said:


> is this jammer comparable to sap 18??



That is not even remotely of consequence, but if you must ask- then comparable in which parameter or function?


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## he-man

Dillinger said:


> That is not even remotely of consequence, but if you must ask- then comparable in which parameter or function?



we have no info on operating frequencies of rafale in built jammer

on a diff note though even su-35 has a tail jammer


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## Dillinger

he-man said:


> we have no info on operating frequencies of rafale in built jammer
> 
> on a diff note though even su-35 has a tail jammer



AND that is why I explained in detail the difference between a SPJ and a proper EW suite in the other thread.

On topic, now that you have posted the SPECTRA's information can you spot the flaw in your statements- for eg. *"till we get ddm-ng rafale will be useless against aesas the point remains"* (My problem with Rafale, lets start with Radar | Page 6)

The DDM-NG is an acronym, expand it and you get- "_Détecteur de_Départ _Missile Nouvelle Génération". _
Its a missile approach detector operating in the IR spectrum. It has absolutely nothing to do with AESA radars- it does not even operate in that specific spectrum.

This should help you-







There are so many of your posts which are peppered with errors along with your assertion at every step that you know what you are talking about. Try to be a bit more open when you come up to PDF and a little patient.

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## sancho

he-man said:


> all right maybe rafael was involved too
> 
> but its 100 percent true man,,,there was a counter offer for sure rejected on dubious grounds



I told you as well that there was an Israeli offer, but not from IAI and not to counter the upgrade in general, since it couldn't include the overhaul of the fighters and stuff that had to be done in France anyway. It only included an alternative radar, partially avionics and weapons.



he-man said:


> can anybody tell me about the jammer shown here??
> 
> so it means rafale dosen't need a dedicated podded jammer??



That is the rear AESA jammer of the SPECTRA suit, it has 2 more in front of the canards, to offer 360° coverage.










The latest F3+ version has upgraded jammers with GaN AESA modules, for improved jamming capabilities, which would be part of our Rafales.

*DrSomnath999* had collected many infos too:
RAFALE'S MINI ENCYLOPEDIA FOR IT'S FANBOYZ

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## sancho

Infos to Meteor missile:

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## DacterSaab

does anyone know if litening will be integrated to indian rafales or they will carry damocles? and will we go for Meteors on our rafale or if Astra will be integrated?


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## ptltejas

owesome maneuvers of Eurofighter definitely.


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## he-man

ptltejas said:


> owesome maneuvers of Eurofighter definitely.


its better in air but has 0 air-to ground mode
also no sensor fusion and no aesa(as of now)


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## Taygibay

No one can talk about equipment for the Indian Rafales for now, DacterSaab! We may venture guesses but that's pretty much it.
Consider that the deal is under negotiation so that any revealing information could jeopardize the results?
What we have heard so far that makes sense is that the Kh-31PM might come along. The reason to give credit to that is that French AdlA has edicted doctrines for tactical use that do not require the use of ARMs since Spectra can find the radar targets and AASM is able to find those. This is a doctrinal choice however? If the IAF is more familiar with the use of ARMs and chooses to have them in inventory for the MMRCA., then the logical choice is the Russian one as it is already available to them.

The only further truth that I can safely state is that there will be differences from the French Rafales. Dassault acknowledged that in a recent communique. For instance, there is to be a HMD for those. The Topsight-I from Samtel-Thales present onboard the MiG-29s and M2K_Hs. This equipment is still not planned for the French AF although pilots voiced an inclination towards it but the govt decided to put it on the back-burner and use the cash for what it deemed to be more pressing developments.

We'll have to wait for the Deal to pass to acquire more certainties? Of course, you'll hear troll A or self-appointed expert B say they now this or that for sure but that will be noise only!
The truth lays in the IAF requirements and negotiations teams, period.

Until then, good day to you and all, Tay.

P.S. @he-man, let's not be too harsh, Typhies can drop dumb bombs and drop any ordinance with a downward link if illuminated by another AC; they did so in Lybia?
Of course, until the second set of post-PE1 improvements are made, it can't do more? Which is interesting as if it was to be called back to MMRCA deal, the negos would run on potential capabilities? IE The 2018 version _should_ be able to do what was asked of it by the IAF? I wonder how much this hypothetical framework would hasten ( or not ) negos? Still, provisional plans do call for the AESA and Storm Shadow to be available by 2017-18 or not much later? GL to our British cousins with that.

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## sancho

Some interesting news why Brimstone wasn't integrated to Rafale, as it was expected after the Libyan war:







(Google translated)



> *MBDA Brimstone believes in on Rafale*
> 
> And if it was precision weaponry which today still lack the Rafale? It must be said that between 30 mm cannon and 250 kg bomb, the French fighter aircraft does not have a collateral effect reduces ammunition, as demonstrated by Operation Harmattan in Libya. From 2011, the British team were therefore approached Dassault MBDA, the DGA and the Air Force to propose their solution to the problem: the AGM Dual Mode Brimstone (DMB), a small arms from 50 kg to guide hybrid and semi-active radar laser which was brilliantly during the operation, which was implemented by the Tornado GR4 of the Royal Air Force.
> Technically, the feasibility of the operation seemed to be no doubt. "On Rafale, it is possible to achieve a minimum first integration in about 12 months," confirmed Adrian Monks, head of the unit "Short Range Surface Attack" at MBDA, during a briefing given on the occasion organized by the 3AF, which was held in Paris from November 27 to 29 "Delivering Precision Effects in a Complex Environment" conference.
> 
> *This integration "emergency" would be about carrying six missiles in point 2 wing on triple similar to those now used by the Tornado adapters. A solution that will allow more hand to carry AASM during the same mission, they are also included in this part of the wing Rafale.
> 
> However, further integration of Brimstone Rafale would consider "a maximum payload of 12 missiles," according to Adrian Monks. Which could be obtained by opening paragraphs 3 wing (near the Mica missile wing tip), now unused, or even the rear fuselage side points today reserved for air-air missile Mica and tomorrow at Meteor.*
> 
> Why the integration of Brimstone did not she made in 2011? No official response emerges, but everyone has his little explanation. Critics of the British solution, the note was as too salty: *first for the integration itself, some amounted to approximately € 100 million for the carriage of six missiles, and then because of the cost Unit of Brimstone, which proves to be higher than the AASM in its more complex versions (laser and infrared)*. Years Furthermore, Sagem logically saw a very dim view of the arrival on the Rafale a competitor missile while the French manufacturer is trying to get funding for a AASM "light" of 125 kg , low side effect, whose feasibility has already been demonstrated.
> 
> *Another possible explanation is very average performance of the Damocles pod designation in the identification of small targets in urban environments* would not be permissible to reproduce Rafale performance obtained by the trio Tornado GR4/nacelle Litening / Brimstone during operation Harmattan. *Hence the reluctance of the French part to fund the integration of the missile, if the "eyes" of the aircraft did not follow. That is why the British side, we say today until the end of the decade and the **advent of F3-R standard** (with new nacelle PDL NG )* for "re-attack" Rafale folder. Unless a customer does not impose export to put it on the carpet in the meantime ...



Missiles : MBDA croit au Brimstone sur Rafale - Air&Cosmos


High costs for integration were expected as reasons, the brits might not want to make the difference between Rafale and EF even higher. The unit cost to be higher than AASM would be surprising though, but might have to do with AASM price for French forces, while Brimstone would come at export customer costs, including development costs...
Also very interesting the point of the average performance of the current Damocles, which might make it even less likely that IAF will chose it over the Litening for M2K UPG, or Rafale.


At the same time, the EF at least makes baby steps (with Saudi funding) to improve it's capabilities, with the first flight with integrated Storm Shadow missiles:











That config however only leaves the centerline station for a 1000l fuel tank, which means it hardly is useful for deep strike missions. That's why it needs CFTs in future, unless the targets are in closer distance (Iran from Saudi Arabia):

Eurofighter Typhoon | Eurofighter Typhoon: Flight tests with Storm Shadow missile started


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## sancho

DacterSaab said:


> does anyone know if litening will be integrated to indian rafales or they will carry damocles? and will we go for Meteors on our rafale or if Astra will be integrated?



We currently have a competition for new LDPs going on, to supply M2K UPG and most likely Rafales with new targeting pods. Thales is offering the Damocles, which BEL might produce in India, while Rafael offers the Litening G4 + an upgrade of the already existing Litening 3s to the G4 level. Capability and cost wise, the Israeli option should be the better one, the only point to go for the French pod would be a co-development for the PDL NG pod, but so far there are no statements on such an offer from the French side.
Another problem for the Litening however could be a licence production of the G4 in India, since it includes US parts as well (jointly developed by Rafael and Northrop Grumman - AN/AAQ-28(V) LITENING Targeting Pod 

The first Rafales should have MICAs only, since METEOR induction is only planned for 2018 and we won't pay for an early integration anymore, with the delays of the competition. Astra is not even close to be ready and available, let alone would have the capability to be integrated to Rafale. The best weapon mix for Rafale F3+ is MICA IR and METEOR, to have passive and active BVR attack capability, next to the advantages of MICA in close combat and METEOR with long range and no escape zone.
More interesting again would be a co-development here, since we already are trying to develop the Maitri SAM SR missiles, which will be based on MICA VL anyway and France has plans for future MICA upgrades. Combining both requirements in a joint project with shared costs, would be a logical choice, but again sadly no offers from the French side know so far and our side might still believe we can do it alone.




Taygibay said:


> If the IAF is more familiar with the use of ARMs and chooses to have them in inventory for the MMRCA., then the logical choice is the Russian one as it is already available to them.



Those are Russian offers and speculations not from IAF or any Indian officials. In fact it's highly doubtful that IAF want to integrate Kh 31 to Rafale, since the AASM attack with SPECTRA is far more effective and simply combining Rafale and MKI in joint SEAD tactics is much cheaper (MKI with Kh 31 attacking the radar, Rafale with AASM the missiles and both from long distances although 125Kg PGM would be the better choice here). Integrating a Russian missile to the French radar and avionics, as well as the weapon stations should be difficult and costly, not to mention that even the US had proposed HARM for Rafale and the same role, which is as unlikely imo. 



Taygibay said:


> This equipment is still not planned for the French AF although pilots voiced an inclination towards it but the govt decided to put it on the back-burner and use the cash for what it deemed to be more pressing developments.



It was planned for the F3 years ago, since the Topsight and the Gerfault helmets were evaluated and a final decision with a planned order for several hundreds and as you said, the AF pilots repeatedly asked for it in intervies of A&C or DSI, only the navy pilots wasn't that eager about it. Sadly costs for the fundings wasn't cleared and as it seems won't be from French government until the MLU in 2025 possibly, since it's not included in the F3R uprades either. So the only hope in this case is India or the UAE.

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## Dillinger

he-man said:


> its better in air but has 0 air-to ground mode
> also no sensor fusion and no aesa(as of now)



What makes you say that it has no sensor fusion, pray elucidate upon what sensor fusion exactly entails? 

The A2G capabilities of the EF are indeed below acceptable standards.


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## he-man

Dillinger said:


> What makes you say that it has no sensor fusion, pray elucidate upon what sensor fusion exactly entails?
> 
> The A2G capabilities of the EF are indeed below acceptable standards.


i meant relative to the rafale
iread the swiss air force assessement of rafale and typhoon and they mentioned that rafale had way better fusion


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## Dillinger

he-man said:


> i meant relative to the rafale
> iread the swiss air force assessement of rafale and typhoon and they mentioned that rafale had way better fusion



The IM architecture is nigh the same, Rafale simply happens to have better sensors and more cogent man-machine interface and data display ergonomics..

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## Taygibay

@sancho,
you got the time table for Meteor integration mixed with the French procurement mate! The integration has started already at DGA.
Rafale tests Meteor air-to-air missiles - Brahmand.com
The 2018 date is for the first missiles bought to be delivered!
Hence there is no problem for the use of the Meteor by IAF / MMRCA Rafales.

I concur on your opinion about the Damocles though. I certainly hope that PDL-NG is on the table for the negotiations. It would be hard to bet on co-development honestly as that work too is already started. But there is still time to establish a local production at least as part of the ToT / offsets.

I also fully agree on your take on the KH-31 ( "*might* come along" ) and yes, that the official answers were indeed Russian. And your outlined tactic seems quite sound.
( MKI_Raffy tandem work )
Still, there have been mentions of differences to be between IAF and AdlA ACs by Rafale Intl. Thus, until the contract is signed and revealed, I'll keep an open mind to what could be in it. HMD/HMCs is a given, some foreign integrations are likely and could explain part of the projected hike in the price of the deal.

And the Gerfault / Topsight was never planned. I consider a thing planned when preliminary work and moneys are cleared. Neither were for these equipments. Yes, as I said ( "voiced an inclination towards it" ) you are right to point out it was hoped for! But hopes are cheap and reality more costly.

Thanks for the link about the Brimstone. I had missed that and it is quite logical and thus credible.

@he-man,
there is a given level of sensor fusion on the 2nd/3rd Tranche Typhies, mate! It's just that it occurs in a "piggy back" computer to the central system and not incorporated fully from the beginning. That remains the particularity of SPECTRA ( Hence its name ) that it was conceived as a full suite to be unified to the plane's controlling computers from the onset. And oh marvel, for once, we thought of making it fully upgradable with serial units in a rack! So darn rare in France where it seems we rarely plan ahead!
And Storm Shadow is expected as part of the PE2-B around 2017 by the program's nations. The maker though considers it feasible to have the AESA in 2014-15 and Storm Shadow as well. That accounts for some of the discrepancies in time tables. Sadly, the abandon save possibly as exports add-ons of the Tranche 3-B doesn't make it likely that any phase advance will take place. But said crudely, one could regard the PE1-B as meaning that Typhoons will have the F-3 capabilities albeit 3+ years later or just before the F3-R forbids them from catching up.

Good day all, Tay.


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## sancho

Taygibay said:


> @sancho,
> you got the time table for Meteor integration mixed with the French procurement mate! The integration has started already at DGA.
> Rafale tests Meteor air-to-air missiles - Brahmand.com
> The 2018 date is for the first missiles bought to be delivered!
> Hence there is no problem for the use of the Meteor by IAF / MMRCA Rafales.



Not exactly, since the integration is aimed on the F3R upgrade to provide the needed wirings and software upgrades to use the weapon. The current F3+ with AESA are not able to use METEOR, which means if the integration is not fully done till we get the first squad, we will get the METEOR only from 2018 onwards. It's basically only a matter of money to speed up the integration and upgrades, but even if the missile will be in production by 2015, the upgrades are needed to use the missile :



Taygibay said:


> I concur on your opinion about the Damocles though. I certainly hope that PDL-NG is on the table for the negotiations. It would be hard to bet on co-development honestly as that work too is already started. But there is still time to establish a local production at least as part of the ToT / offsets.



A co-production with access of all important techs would definitely be interesting too, but just outsourcing production to reduce costs won't be enough for sure and the high price tag of the PDL NG will be an issue too, so access to tech is the only way.




Taygibay said:


> Still, there have been mentions of differences to be between IAF and AdlA ACs by Rafale Intl. Thus, until the contract is signed and revealed, I'll keep an open mind to what could be in it. HMD/HMCs is a given, some foreign integrations are likely and could explain part of the projected hike in the price of the deal.



Of course, because IAFs requirements are different to the one of French forces Indian Rafale unlike French F3+ will have:

- HMS
- IRST
- custom data link
- rumors say SATCOM too
- most likely Litening LDP
- most likely SPICE 2000 (although UAE's AASM alternative looks promissing too)
- possibly some minor Indian techs and parts
- possibly Sudarshan LGB and Brahmos mini in future

So that alone is very different from what the French forces will get, or what Qatar might buy.




Taygibay said:


> And the Gerfault / Topsight was never planned. I consider a thing planned when preliminary work or moneys are cleared. Neither were for these equipments. Yes, as I said ( "voiced an inclination towards it" ) you are right to point out it was hoped for! But hopes are cheap and reality more costly.



Both Sagem and Dassault had officially announced the selection of Gerfault HMS for the F3 in 2005, which was done after the evaluation of both helmets and tests were done. So requirements was stateded - evaluation held - decision made, which is far more than preliminary work or hope, but the as you said as well, it was kicked for cost reasons.



Taygibay said:


> Thanks for the link about the Brimstone. I had missed that and it is quite logical and thus credible.



France (or India) should consider SPIKE NLOS, twice the range of Brimstone and most likely cheaper too, our own Helina would be nice too, but seems to be a long shot solution only.


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## he-man

thanks for clarifications man


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## Taygibay

Sadly, there are more ( clarifications ) needed!

Sancho mate, I have recognized in the past that you are one of the most knowledgeable posters on the Rafale and I maintain it. This said, your sources are most often too general (not insider cues ).

The Rafale planes at STANDARD F3-R will be delivered in 2018. For that to happen, the Standard itself will have to be fulfilled a couple to a few months before as it takes that time to build the aircrafts! So the Standard will be ready by the end of 2017 at worst. Similarly, for a standard to be validated, the individual capacities have to be achieved prior to validation which means that the integration of the Meteor will have to be done by early 2017 max. The word at Dassault and DGA when you ask politely ( for instance at the Paris Air Show ) is 2016.
By the way, the 3 years span for delivery of the 18 fly-away units is to reach 2017 in less than 30 days? Just sayin'

Now, I would understand if you again tried to swipe my remarks out of the way with some piece from here or there on the Net so that I will provide an example related to your second contention on the HMD/HMCS.
Fact : Topsight was the initial choice! Except that it was actually tested by the DGA on a Mystère XX test bed plane as well as in centrifuges and very little on the Rafale itself during the period at which Raffys were nearing induction :
http://kovy.free.fr/temp/rafale/Les essais en Vol du RAFALE.pdf

"
encore sur le simulateur Rafale par exemple pour la mise au point

des symbologies du TOPSIGHT."
Transl. "... and beyond on the Rafale simulator for the Topsight symbols repertoire set-up."

Then the Gerfault was deemed better as you pointed out but check here :
http:// www.safran-group .com/site-safran/presse-et-medias/ espace-medias/article/gerfaut-l-oeil-percant-de-safran
Copy paste and remove spaces to get the link.
where one can read : "Pour le programme Rafale France, 336 casques Gerfaut ont été commandés à ce jour, avec des livraisons série à partir de 2006. Le casque Gerfaut fait également partie de la suite avionique du Rafale proposé à l’export."
Transl. " For the French Rafale program, 336 Gerfaut helmets were ordered to this day, with regular deliveries starting in 2006. The Gerfaut helmet is equally part of the export offer avionic suite of the Rafale."

*Neither of which is true!*

Straight from Safran literature? I defy you to find one official paper from the French government to accredit that lie! One! Find me a ministerial redaction stating as much or a parliamentary report indicated that the money for it was cleared! You will not be able to for the very simple reason that this is bu..sh.t! The Gerfaut was first found to necessitate more development, more than expected as the CEV DGA found problems with it. Then the money slated for it was diverted to the AESA development which was deemed to be more important which is clearly the fact as it was required in the MMRCA whereas the integration of TopSight is effective in India and thus much simpler to transfer to the Rafale than a non-existent radar which would be otherwise as it is for the Typhoon?

That choice was clearly stated by Capitaine Romain, the same pilot that wrote about his Rafale A-Stan experience, in a TV interview the link to which is now sadly dead or I would have given it to you.

Do you now see what I mean about sources? It is no disrespect to you, man! It just happens that this kind of embellishment of reality is standard practice by manufacturers, French as well as foreign!
The only infos I accept personally are those from the French government in official publications or those by French Armed Forces personnel as long as they do so under their full name and in public interviews.

By the way, I served for those Armed Forces? Contrary to what some other posters have said, I would find it condescending to explain to you how the Gurkas operate since I never trained alongside them? I'd really appreciate the same courtesy in return? It's my land ( I was born in Paris, for Pete's sake ) and served in the 80s. I went to the Bourget under military clearance where I had the immense luck of meeting Mister Dassault himself? The great original Marcel, not the kids! This does not make me a know-it-all but it helped me form an ability to judge the specific French military environment that I am, politely, not sure you can boast of?

I am sorry for this run-off at you but I am getting really tired of the nitpicking. If you want to be right at all costs despite reality, I can leave you to be the sole holy grail provider on this forum, no skin of my back. I left more renowned ones without batting an eyelid, hence the blog instead of the endless discussions! And although you don't know me personally, rest assured that I won't hold any grudge whatsoever.

In any case, my advice to you would be to stay prudently dubious of almost any truth less it has been demonstrated to you, proved!
But if you insist to say that Meteor is only to be available by 2018, then I can play the commercial literature game right back at you :
http://www.dassault-aviation.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/1/files/2012/08/FOXTHREE_16.pdf

From which :


"In early 2011, the French Ministry

of Defence announced an order

for an initial batch of 200 Meteor

missiles to equip both French Air

Force and French Navy Rafales,

with the new missile to enter

operational service in 2016. "

Page 5.

So which will it be, man? You accept that Dassault proved me right in its own Rafale newletter? Or you accept that commercial pamphlets are useless, mine or those you find included, and thus make me right on the HMD?
Or we just relax the mind games and agree to be a little less sure / full of ourselves and wait for reality to emerge?
Again, your pick, I won't complain, promise!

In the meanwhile, a good day to you and yours and all others on Defence.PK, Tay.


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## halloweene

As thales has bought visionix, it could also be the incoming HMD...


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## IND151

Reliance, Dassault planning facility to produce wings for Rafale | idrw.org

*New Delhi: *France's *Dassault Aviation* and *Reliance Industries* are *planning to set up a facility to produce wings of Rafale combat aircraft selected by IAF for meeting its requirement of 126 fighter planes*. The two firms are *planning to set up a Rs 1,000-crore facility* for producing the wings of the Rafale combat aircraft and* it is most likely to come up in Bangalore*, industry sources told PTI in New Delhi. Wings for the fighter. Under the plan, Dassault Aviation would help Reliance to establish the factory similar to its production facilities in France where the aircraft is produced, they said. *The defence ministry and other agencies concerned have given a go ahead to the two companies for creating the unit*, they said. India had selected Dassault Aviation's Rafale plane last year after a five-year-long process in which five other companies had participated. Dassault and the defence ministry had been engaged in long contract negotiations after which the ministry finalised the deal, which is expected to cost around Rs 60,000 crore. Earlier, the French firm and the defence ministry were engaged in a tussle over the role of the defence arm of the Reliance Industries in the contract. Dassault wanted Reliance to be the main partner in production of the aircraft in India but the government made it clear that it was not possible as the tender for the procurement clearly stated that aerospace PSU Hindustan Aeronautics Limited would be the lead integrator for the project. The differences over the issue have been resolved and Dassault and HAL have started readying their teams for implementing the project after it is signed.

Read more at: http://www.firstpost.com/business/r...hter-jets-1279705.html?utm_source=ref_article

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## Storm Force

Looks like reliance wil get a finger in the massive MMRCA pie when india signs the contract.

IM GLAD that private companies are beginning to play in military affairs it wil help indian military in future.

I want to see future LCA TEJAS programme to shared with private players too


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## sancho

Sorry, must have missed your reply



Taygibay said:


> The Rafale planes at STANDARD F3-R will be delivered in 2018. For that to happen, the Standard itself will have to be fulfilled a couple to a few months before as it takes that time to build the aircrafts! So the Standard will be ready by the end of 2017 at worst.



And that exactly explains why the first Indian Rafales can't have METEOR:

(google translated)



> ...When it was built in the spring, military planning law (LPM) 2014-2019 foresaw that a contract would be signed in 2013 - India, which negotiates the purchase of 126 Rafale while doing figure safest outlet - for delivery from 2016. *The bankers Ministry therefore considered that, of the eleven Rafale coming out of the chain of Merignac in three years, seven will be reserved for export, against four in France*...
> ...*it is only after twelve to eighteen months after the beginning of its manufacture a Rafale integrates its final configuration. In other words, Dassault still until mid-2014 to "steer" irreversibly production in 2016 between French aircraft, Indian* and Qatari Doha is another hot prospect at the time …



Google Übersetzer


As I told you earlier, India didn't evaluated the F3R, but the F3+ and the production of the first of the 18 fighters that would be delivered in 2017 has already begun, with the final configuration be set till mid 2014. So unless the METEOR integration is done by then, these fighters will remain in the F3+ configuration, while the licence production can include METEOR capability.




Taygibay said:


> But if you insist to say that Meteor is only to be available by 2018, then I can play the commercial literature game right back at you :



Hehe, too bad for you that the latest version of Fox 3 says:






So just like in the case of the Gerfaul HMS, the government revised their earlier decisions.



Taygibay said:


> Fact : Topsight was the initial choice!



It was the first helmet that was tested, not a selected choice. The later evaluation however included the alternative of Sagem too and as you also admit, it was found to be better then the Topsight and was selected for the F3 upgrade, but later cancelled, again as you said to use the funds for other upgrades. So only because you claim that the Sagem statement is wrong, doesn't make it automatically wrong, especially since even Dassault confirmed the same back then too (and since you quoted Dassault as well, I guess you take them as a reliable enough source or?):





(Fox 3 no 8, page 3).

So the manufacturer of the helmet as well the manufacturer of the fighter „officially“ confirmed the selection and still people want to deny it, only to say that there wasn't funding released and therefor were no issues for funding upgrades in the Rafale.
Btw, IF the only issue would had been technically problems of the helmets, the development would had been proceeded and it would be integrated later in the F3+ or at least in the coming F3R upgrade, however no further funding was released for the developments, or the testing. It's of course not that of an issue as it is for the EF, but even the Rafale suffered from lack of funding and that's why HMS, CFTs, or IRST are dependent on export customer funding today.



Taygibay said:


> Then the money slated for it was diverted to the AESA development which was deemed to be more important which is clearly the fact as it was required in the MMRCA whereas the integration of TopSight is effective in India and thus much simpler to transfer to the Rafale than a non-existent radar which would be otherwise as it is for the Typhoon?



That's wrong, since at the time the helmets were evaluated, the M2K-5 was in the competition in MRCA and not Rafale, so funding AESA had nothing to do with India back then, infact Dassault offered it and an AESA integration for S.Korea and Singapore first. Just like the Topsight prototype that was tested in Rafale back then, hardly is the same Topsight that is available today.
When you also look at the reports from the UAE deal, it is clear that France still prefers the Gerfault helmet, since that reportedly is offered to the UAE, if they funds it.



halloweene said:


> As thales has bought visionix, it could also be the incoming HMD...



It still would require funds for the intgeration and most likely diverting production as an offset. So it's not the issue which helmet it might be, but that somebody funds the integration and.
For Indian forces commonality of Topsight will be interesting, but if another helmet offers advantages, why not?


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## Taygibay

OK, Sancho, that reply was filled enough with bad faith for me to catch your drift.

You quote a Google translation ( while I speak French ) the title of which you conveniently avoided as it says that "Since the export deal has not been signed the govt will have to fund the building of those Rafales as per its contractual 11 per year obligation to do so" or the exact opposite of your pretense!
Disingenuous at best.

Going on to repeat the 2017 date, are you? When you know full well A- that this date is moving away with every day that passes and B- that there is as I explained no correlation between a given capacity and a standard which does not concern you as it is for the French forces?
Believing that a repeated lie becomes a truth, are we?

Going on to provide the Fox Three no 17 as proof when I gave you the Fox Three 16 in link ( which you forgot to do BTW ) disregarding that what changed in those 3 months ( Sept/Dec ) is that the French govt confirmed the date of entry in FRENCH service? Whereas before, the plane's maker was talking from the standpoint of what it could provide?
To difficult to grasp, is it?

And then, lo and behold, you move on to provide the Fox Three no 8 as a source? From 2005 just as my ( link confirmed ) Sagem document? And try to pass that as proof when I specifically asked you for a governmental source explaining how these do not exist? And anyone with half a brain and an eye attached to it can see that there is no HMS/HMCS on French Rafales as of today, December 10 2013 or 8 years later?
What do you think that proves exactly?

I'll tell you what I think it proves, that you like being right in fora more than being right in reality to the point of refusing the latter to permit the on-going existence of the former! Or alternatively that you simply like the noise you make over the absence of meaning it carries.
If I was certain that you do so intentionally, I'd call you by one of the memes that describe such behaviour since the Internet started ( I was there  ) and leave Defence.Pk to your greedy claws but I'd rather think you don't understand or maybe are a kid or something like that.
So that I will keep posting the truth along with the proofs thereof as it may benefit some of our fellow forumers but otherwise ignore you.
You may keep at this schizophrenic game of yours all you want, until you either turn blue in the face or feel content that you "won". Be my guest!
I just will not acknowledge those rants hence.
No hard feelings, I wish you and yours all the best in your future endeavours and especially the wisdom needed to make them fruitful, sincerely, Tay.

*The above is not meant for all others posters and I respectfully am sorry for the ungracious side of this exchange.*

@ Halloweene in particular, I have appreciated your quality in fora where I used to dwell such as key/p. If you ever have the time and the inclination, do come by my blog ( address below )
and use the contact form in it to join me by google e-mail  Tay.


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## sancho

Taygibay said:


> OK, Sancho, that reply was filled enough with bad faith for me to catch your drift.
> 
> You quote a Google translation ( while I speak French ) the title of which you conveniently avoided as it says that "Since the export deal has not been signed the govt will have to fund the building of those Rafales as per its contractual 11 per year obligation to do so" or the exact opposite of your pretense!
> Disingenuous at best.



And what has it to do with the METEOR? Nothing, because it doesn't matter who gets these fighters at the end, the important point (that you surely have understood, but that you don't want to admit) is, that these fighters that will be delivered in 2017are F3+ standard, no matter if they go to French, or Indian forces and that they can't have METEOR unless the integration is done till mid next year, which even you think will be done only by 2017!
So although you speak French and have "inside sources", your claims simply don't add up! Of course you can remain with "your" truth, just like you can wrt to the HMS, but forgive me when I take 2 official manufacture sources as more reliable than your claims (and you don't have anything else) that all that was just a lie. 

The rest is just hilarious, so lets leave it at that.


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## 帅的一匹

The problems of India and Pakistan are :
India is very rich but the Rafale deal is now got stuck. They are rich but indecisive(most time taken as cash cow).
Pakistan's economy is in very bad shape but she has very much firm determination to go for J10B.
Both are painful but can't help.

The advantage of China is we are both rich and decisive.

As Pakistan is with China side, so money is not always a detrimental problem.

When the first Rafale arrives India in year 2018, PLA might probably have more than 100 J10B in its service. The gap is getting wide and wide. If Indians want the game continue runing, damn sign the Rafale contract.

Don't let the game loose its fun.



Storm Force said:


> Looks like reliance wil get a finger in the massive MMRCA pie when india signs the contract.
> 
> IM GLAD that private companies are beginning to play in military affairs it wil help indian military in future.
> 
> I want to see future LCA TEJAS programme to shared with private players too


DRDO is the last resort you should go for, India need many new competitors joining the game.


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## Sergi

wanglaokan said:


> The problems of India and Pakistan are :
> India is very rich but the Rafale deal is now got stuck. They are rich but indecisive(most time taken as cash cow).
> Pakistan's economy is in very bad shape but she has very much firm determination to go for J10B.
> Both are painful but can't help.
> 
> The advantage of China is we are both rich and decisive.
> 
> As Pakistan is with China side, so money is not always a detrimental problem.
> 
> When the first Rafale arrives India in year 2018, PLA might probably have more than 100 J10B in its service. The gap is getting wide and wide. If Indians want the game continue runing, damn sign the Rafale contract.
> 
> Don't let the game loose its fun.


Weren't you were crying about the engines in that thread 

If money isn't a problem why not your great CPC just donate 30 billion to Pakistan so their economy can me jump started ..... Or you really don't want to help them. 

Yes gap is widening day by day so is the list of anti-China countries. So summation is not going to change too much


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## 帅的一匹

Sergi said:


> Weren't you were crying about the engines in that thread
> 
> If money isn't a problem why not your great CPC just donate 30 billion to Pakistan so their economy can me jump started ..... Or you really don't want to help them.
> 
> Yes gap is widening day by day so is the list of anti-China countries. So summation is not going to change too much


India included in anti-China list? Most Pakistan members in this forum say they will count n their own for its dignity.

I respect their decision.

Bhi Sergi, China support India buys Rafale cause The arm race just begins.

Let's see who is the boss in the end.


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## Bratva

@sancho What's data link capability coming with Rafael. Is it your own Indian data link would be installed or the french one which would be most probably Link 16. If it's later, than how would you data link Rafael fleet with rest of the fleet?


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## Dash

mafiya said:


> @sancho What's data link capability coming with Rafael. Is it your own Indian data link would be installed or the french one which would be most probably Link 16. If it's later, than how would you data link Rafael fleet with rest of the fleet?



I will let @sancho clarify more, but Rafale will use Link 16 for its internal data links.


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## sancho

mafiya said:


> @sancho What's data link capability coming with Rafael. Is it your own Indian data link would be installed or the french one which would be most probably Link 16. If it's later, than how would you data link Rafael fleet with rest of the fleet?



Rafale in IAF will not use Link 16, since it's not compatible with IAFs systems, so there will be an own or customized system that will be added, just like we for other foreign aircrafts. The M2K upgrade will show us more about the config that Rafale for IAF might have in future, be it on data links, EW, LDPs, or weapons (most likely also HMS).

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## Taygibay

M 2000 H upgrade to full dash 5 includes JTIDS
India’s Fighter Upgrades: Mirage 2000s Finally Get a Deal
Joint Tactical Information Distribution System - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Which is fully Link 16 compatible. It can be delivered with or without L-16 and/or upgraded later.

Good day all, Tay.


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## Dash

sancho said:


> Rafale in IAF will not use Link 16, since it's not compatible with IAFs systems, so there will be an own or customized system that will be added, just like we for other foreign aircrafts. The M2K upgrade will show us more about the config that Rafale for IAF might have in future, be it on data links, EW, LDPs, or weapons (most likely also HMS).



Sancho, while it talks to PODs, Missile guidance and intrenal core activities I guess it will use Link 16 as these internal systems are in built with that data link. However for external communication while talking other fighters, radars etc, it will use a pulg in for link 16 to get to the indian link.


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## sancho

Dash said:


> Sancho, while it talks to PODs, Missile guidance and intrenal core activities I guess it will use Link 16 as these internal systems are in built with that data link. However for external communication while talking other fighters, radars etc, it will use a pulg in for link 16 to get to the indian link.



Wouldn't that limit it to weapons that are compatible to Link 16 only, while Brahmos mini, other Russian or Indian weapons, might not be useful?


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## sancho

Not directly related to MMRCA anymore, but still interesting and possibly a good point for us in the negotiations with Dassault:



> *Saab wins Brazil's F-X2 fighter contest with Gripen NG *
> 
> Brazil has selected the Saab Gripen E/F for the 36 aircraft F-X2 requirement to replace its air force's older combat types.
> 
> With an acquisition cost in the region of $4.5 billion, the Gripens will replace the Dassault Mirage 2000C fighters operated by the 1st Air Defence Group and a number of the modernised Northrop F-5EMs in four other Air Force squadrons.
> 
> The long-awaited announcement was made on 18 December by Brazilian defence minister Celso Amorim and Brazilian air force Chief Gen Juniti Saito.
> 
> The decision was driven by aircraft performance, transfer of technology and low through-life costs, according to the officials...



Saab wins Brazil's F-X2 fighter contest with Gripen NG


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## Dash

sancho said:


> Wouldn't that limit it to weapons that are compatible to Link 16 only, while Brahmos mini, other Russian or Indian weapons, might not be useful?



Brahmos mini will never come to Rafale simply because of the fact that it cant carry that weight. Russian weapons will never come for the same reason too!!...what else did you think bro? they will integrate russian BVRRAMS with Rafale?



Taygibay said:


> M 2000 H upgrade to full dash 5 includes JTIDS
> India’s Fighter Upgrades: Mirage 2000s Finally Get a Deal
> Joint Tactical Information Distribution System - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> Which is fully Link 16 compatible. It can be delivered with or without L-16 and/or upgraded later.
> 
> Good day all, Tay.


tay you should speak more on logical lines is what I feel..


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## sancho

Dash said:


> Brahmos mini will never come to Rafale simply because of the fact that it cant carry that weight. Russian weapons will never come for the same reason too!!...what else did you think bro? they will integrate russian BVRRAMS with Rafale?



That's not correct, Brahmos mini is aimed on 1500Kg, and Rafale has at least 3 x hardpoints that can carry even higher loads (2000l fuel in sub sonic fuel tanks), so weight is not an issue. I don't expect other Russian weapons either, but Indian weapons could be and why would we develop the recently planned anti radiation missile to be compatible with any NATO data links, I don't even expect Astra will be aimed on such a capability and IF there ever will be a Ramjet version of the missile, it surely will be added to our Rafales too, therefor the main aim will be on an Indian data link system that suits our requirements. If that however will be a modified French one, or the one that we develop with the Israelis needs to be seen.

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## Taygibay

Dash said:


> tay you should speak more on logical lines is what I feel..



I must be too obtuse, Dash mate, for I do not comprehend the meaning of your advice?
1 link to contract content + 1 to implied material with specs seemed logical enough?
Don't hesitate to complete your suggestion here or maybe by way of PM, Tay.


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## Dash

sancho said:


> That's not correct, Brahmos mini is aimed on 1500Kg, and Rafale has at least 3 x hardpoints that can carry even higher loads (2000l fuel in sub sonic fuel tanks), so weight is not an issue. I don't expect other Russian weapons either, but Indian weapons could be and why would we develop the recently planned anti radiation missile to be compatible with any NATO data links, I don't even expect Astra will be aimed on such a capability and IF there ever will be a Ramjet version of the missile, it surely will be added to our Rafales too, therefor the main aim will be on an Indian data link system that suits our requirements. If that however will be a modified French one, or the one that we develop with the Israelis needs to be seen.



My doubt is that modifying link 16 to Indian link for internal links will be a big task, if they can let them, else for couple of Indian systems plug-ins will do.

and sorry, you are right about the mini, rafale can carry that in stand off strike mode.and thats a big thing!!


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## halloweene

Just a little point, whch may solve some issues. F3R is a SOFTWARE standard, fully retrofittable to previous standards...

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## sancho

Dash said:


> and sorry, you are right about the mini, rafale can carry that in stand off strike mode.and thats a big thing!!



Yes, hopefully getting Scalp and adding Brahmos mini would make it a hell of a deep and maritime strike platform, although both are quiet costly weapons.

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## Abingdonboy

halloweene said:


> Just a little point, whch may solve some issues. F3R is a SOFTWARE standard, fully retrofittable to previous standards...


The F3R is a French mil-specific update with almost negligible benefits to the IAF. What's more interesting, for India, will be the F4 and beyond that.


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## IND151

Dassault carrying out gap analysis of HAL’s capabilities | idrw.org

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## trident2010

Hope we sort the deal as soon as possible.


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## Dash

Y the thread title changed?


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## ejaz007

*India’s M-MRCA Fighter Competition: Is the Deal In Trouble?*

*Dec 26/13:* Dassault Aviation is reportedly conducting gap analysis of state-owned HAL’s fighter plane production capabilities. There may be quite a few, given HAL’s recent performance on a number of other projects. HAL officials say that they have a structure in place to do something meaningful with the recommendations:

“HAL has created a dedicated full time MMRCA Project Group in May 2012 and it is operational since then. Action groups have been created at all HAL divisions taking part in the MMRCA programme. All groups are working in a coordinated manner to interact with the Original Equipment Manufacturers.


http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/mirage-2000s-withdrawn-as-indias-mrca-fighter-competition-changes-01989/


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## halloweene

Abingdonboy said:


> The F3R is a French mil-specific update with almost negligible benefits to the IAF. What's more interesting, for India, will be the F4 and beyond that.


I think India will be interested in enhanced radar and spectra capabilities, IFF 5/S, maybe in meteor integration also.


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## sancho

halloweene said:


> I think India will be interested in enhanced radar and spectra capabilities, IFF 5/S, maybe in meteor integration also.




IFF 5/S is mainly an improvement for the interoperability with NATO forces and just like Link 16 won't have a big importance for India. When you compare the F3R and what the UAE might get to Rafale, you can clearly see which upgrades (that both are actually aimed on a similar timeframe) will create much more interest to IAF.

(* => interesting for India)

*F3-R upgrade:*

- Meteor + radar enhancements *
- improved SPECTRA*
- improved air-to-ground fire control*

- PDL-NG targeting pod (depends on LDP decision for M2K UPG)
[- low collateral damage weapon] (interest will depend on weapon selection, AASM 125 would not be that interesting for sure) 

- IFF Mode 5/S (aimed on NATO operations)
- improved Link16 (aimed on NATO operations)
- improved capabilities for RECO-NG pod (IAF is more likely to keep using available fighters, or add LCA for this role, next to more UAVs)
- new refueling pod (not needed by IAF)


*Possible UAE upgrades:*

- radar enhancements (longer range, more A2G modes)*
- SPECTRA enhancements*
- integrations of heavy strike configs with 2 or 3 x 2000lb LGBs or cruise missiles* (definitely a point, for strike mission on the eastern front!)
- integration of HMS* (MMRCA requirement!)
- integration of SLAM-ER missile* (IAF rejected Exocet in favour for Harpoon in Jag upgrade and SLAM-ER would just increase the advantages over Exocet again)
- integration of AL-Tariq PGM* (the recent decision of UAE to add it to M2K-9, makes it clear that they would use it instead of AASM in a Rafale too. It's longer range capabilities and most likely a lower cost, makes it attractive too)

- M88 engine enhancements (not needed, but wouldn't mind it)
- opening of external wingstations (if the UAE funds it, why not)
- integration of Sniper pod (would be at least a cheaper and more capable alternative to current Damocles)

So by all means, the F3R has not that much effect on India, like the UAE upgrades might have.

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## halloweene

Opening the external wingstations is done on experimental Rafale in Istres (different to qualification by AdlA). and UAE no more ask for RBE2AA enhancement. Prototype largely exceeded specs at CEAM Mt de Marsan (more than double range). 2 cruise missile config is already qualified, yes 3 was at a time demand of the UAE. No idea how it goes nowadays.
Anw, as F3R is a software standard, it may interest india.
Damocles was designed in order to hit at long distance and is not really fit to low collateral damge etc., Still it has qualities like a very powerful laser.

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## sancho

halloweene said:


> Opening the external wingstations is done on experimental Rafale in Istres (different to qualification by AdlA). and UAE no more ask for RBE2AA enhancement. Prototype largely exceeded specs at CEAM Mt de Marsan (more than double range). 2 cruise missile config is already qualified, yes 3 was at a time demand of the UAE. No idea how it goes nowadays.
> Anw, as F3R is a software standard, it may interest india.
> Damocles was designed in order to hit at long distance and is not really fit to low collateral damge etc., Still it has qualities like a very powerful laser.



The heavy config for Salp is ready yet, but not for GBU 24, or exocet, which both are limited to a single weapon according to French forces needs. An increased load capability especially for the heavy bombs will surely be interesting for IAF and if the UAE also adds SLAM-ER and Al-Tariq in these heavy configs, you have more capability at lower costs compared to current config with French weapons.


Models from Paris Air Show showing possible UAE configs:


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## halloweene

Btw, there is an old test with heavy config from Flight. 3x 2000L, 2 Scalps, 4 Mica. Mach 0.6 to 0.9 35 secs, roll rate 150°, up to 5.2g


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## Taygibay

For those interested in reality, the Rafale's pinpoint strike configuration allows for 3 GBU-24. As for the lone Exocet central point config, it is consequence of the fact that on a carrier, one would not want to attempt to land with a dissymetric load after having left with two underwings missiles and fired one. Nothing forbids 3 Scalps either. The Marine's ( CDG ) use the central point for the aforementioned reason and the AF uses the points 3 & 12. But since there are 5 points open for the use of the Scalp ( 3-4-8-11-12 ) the max load for it would be 5 missiles. Of course, while the aircraft could take-off, it would lack any external fuel and thus have to fire the weapons barely out of the airport' security zone and immediately come back to base. Still, that shows the difference between possible and useful or possible and practical, concepts that are lost on some people & have them say incorrect stuff out of confusion.
This image gives the open points although the 2 and 13 MICA ones have not been opened yet IIRC.



<a href="Free Web Proxy - FreeWebProxy.com"><img src="http://www.freeimagehosting.net/newuploads/1mzi4.gif" alt="Free Web Proxy"></a>

Good day all, Tay.

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## halloweene

Points 2 and 13 are being opened on experimental B301 in Istres (Vianney Riller Jr saw them), which is far different from being qualified Armée de l'air.


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## halloweene

In this document (in french), it is stated that during flight trials, an "agressive" pilot has flown RAfale as slow as ... 15 Kts... And it was before opening high incidence domain...

Dropbox - 27chap22.pdf

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## halloweene

According to Aerospace Diary: EXCLUSIVE! MMRCA- New Year Tidings

MMRCA before 15 feb.

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## kurup

halloweene said:


> According to Aerospace Diary: EXCLUSIVE! MMRCA- New Year Tidings
> 
> MMRCA before 15 feb.



That is a very good news ......


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## sancho

halloweene said:


> Btw, there is an old test with heavy config from Flight. 3x 2000L, 2 Scalps, 4 Mica. Mach 0.6 to 0.9 35 secs, roll rate 150°, up to 5.2g



At the Paris Air Show in 1997, the Rafale made a flight display with that config:





(min 8:36 onwards)


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## halloweene

Yes, Mike Yeo tested it right back from Le Bourget in 1999 for flight



sancho said:


> At the Paris Air Show in 1997, the Rafale made a flight display with that config:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (min 8:36 onwards)


nice high aoa manouvers btw.


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## Manvantaratruti

kurup said:


> That is a very good news ......



Not necessarily. 

What if the initial contract will guarantee that we will buy Rafale without the counter guarantee that they will provide all necessary ToT ? ...a contract without any exit strategy ? 

Its not like it has not been done before.


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## Abingdonboy

halloweene said:


> According to Aerospace Diary: EXCLUSIVE! MMRCA- New Year Tidings
> 
> MMRCA before 15 feb.


Some nice things to take away from this article:




> While nothing can ever be confirmed in the world of defense procurement in India till the ink dries on paper, it is becoming increasingly clear that a basic contract will be signed with Dassault Aviation in the next 45 days for the MMRCA. This is simply because the 45 day election morotarium starts on Feb 15, we are being told.
> HAL will be in the picture as the RFP clearly says, and we are also hearing some large private companies are in the picture for supplying aerostructures.
> Even as the AgustaWestland deal has been cancelled, a source tells us: “The government wants to ensure Dassault gets the contract so that the deal cannot be questioned by subsequent governments.” We are also hearing internal discussions on the basic contract have been completed by the IAF.


-Preliminary contract should/will be signed within 45 days (meaning first deliveries of Rafales in early 2017 are assured). 
-"Large" Indian PVT players are involved (Reliance almost certainly) 
-IAF has completed their side of the work. 
- Work is being done to make the Rafale contract iron-clad and above reproach.(long-term very good to know).



Manvantaratruti said:


> Not necessarily.
> 
> What if the initial contract will guarantee that we will buy Rafale without the counter guarantee that they will provide all necessary ToT ? ...a contract without any exit strategy ?
> 
> Its not like it has not been done before.


Why would you nessercarily jump to this conclusion? It's not like the GoI/MoD have spent the last 2 years sat around drawing up such unappealing terms for themselves. And in the light of recent export failures for Dassualt, India is in a strong bargaining position.


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## halloweene

yes, and talking to Dassault executives, they told me they valued 60 years old client like india and wouldnt sign if the contract wasn't iron clad. Of course they are from Dassault...

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## Manvantaratruti

Abingdonboy said:


> Why would you nessercarily jump to this conclusion? It's not like the GoI/MoD have spent the last 2 years sat around drawing up such unappealing terms for themselves. And in the light of recent export failures for Dassualt, India is in a strong bargaining position.



As I said, its not like a poor contract has not be signed before. 

The very fact that the GoI could not sign off on the deal for 2 years and now is hastily signing of on a preliminary contract is what is raising the eyebrows. 

There is nothing in the article to indicate an exit strategy except wishful thinking.


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## PARIKRAMA

*@ Abingdonboy @sancho *

can u pls throw some light on Indianised Rafale vs say french Rafale in terms of armaments, costs like life cycle and operating costs..

One dummy question: if by far India becomes say the only customer of rafale or largest operator outside France, would it be prudent that we go for a say tie up which helps both the countries to evolve Rafale even more in future.. if so whats the possible evolution in Rafale u all believe could be possible.


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## halloweene

Dassault do not communicate about Rafale indianization. What we know for sure is that there will be HMD, anti ARM lissile and SATCOM.
And yes, for example IAF will be consulted for MLU. (At least that's what toldme one of Dassault vice presidents)

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## sancho

PARIKRAMA said:


> can u pls throw some light on Indianised Rafale vs say french Rafale in terms of armaments, costs like life cycle and operating costs..
> 
> One dummy question: if by far India becomes say the only customer of rafale or largest operator outside France, would it be prudent that we go for a say tie up which helps both the countries to evolve Rafale even more in future.. if so whats the possible evolution in Rafale u all believe could be possible.



The MMRCA RFP requires HMS and IRST, both are not included in French latest Rafales. We also heared that the Mirage 2000 upgrade includes SPICE 2000 PGMs, which makes it likely to be added to Rafale too, a common LDP is also likely for both fighters.
We have seen reports from US and Russia, that offered weapons for the Indian Rafale, but I didn't saw an IAF official asking for an ARM. With the availability of Russian ARM at Mig 29UPGs or MKIs and the development for an indian ARM started, it actually would be a waste of money to integrate a Russian or US ARM to Rafale now, but lets wait and see.

Some say wrt upgrades (MLU I guess) will be there for sure, but imo that is too less. Both sides should had focused on a real partnership on the Rafale, which would have added far more potential to the fighter and joint developments, instead of indianization Rafale for IAF specifically. 
In a partnership, the PDL NG for example could be jointly developed, which reduces the development and unit costs, gains India with technology transfer and could jointly be sold to potential export customers! IF India however will add the Israeli Litening pod, none of the potential Gulf countries, that might want to buy Rafale could buy it. 
Same potential can be seen at joint NG HMS, IRST, EW, or even missile developments based on the Maitri SAM / MICA VL co-development.

I guess we are too distracted by LCA and FGFA, while the French side (mainly Dassault) is not eager to see India as a real partner.

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## PARIKRAMA

sancho said:


> The MMRCA RFP requires HMS and IRST, both are not included in French latest Rafales. We also heared that the Mirage 2000 upgrade includes SPICE 2000 PGMs, which makes it likely to be added to Rafale too, a common LDP is also likely for both fighters.
> We have seen reports from US and Russia, that offered weapons for the Indian Rafale, but I didn't saw an IAF official asking for an ARM. With the availability of Russian ARM at Mig 29UPGs or MKIs and the development for an indian ARM started, it actually would be a waste of money to integrate a Russian or US ARM to Rafale now, but lets wait and see.
> 
> Some say wrt upgrades (MLU I guess) will be there for sure, but imo that is too less. Both sides should had focused on a real partnership on the Rafale, which would have added far more potential to the fighter and joint developments, instead of indianization Rafale for IAF specifically.
> In a partnership, the PDL NG for example could be jointly developed, which reduces the development and unit costs, gains India with technology transfer and could jointly be sold to potential export customers! IF India however will add the Israeli Litening pod, none of the potential Gulf countries, that might want to buy Rafale could buy it.
> Same potential can be seen at joint NG HMS, IRST, EW, or even missile developments based on the Maitri SAM / MICA VL co-development.
> 
> I guess we are too distracted by LCA and FGFA, while the French side (mainly Dassault) is not eager to see India as a real partner.




thats a shame if India is nt trying to become a real partner with french,, may be its more of a political will that is needed to push that "wish to be there" with french side.. if the so called 126+follow on order of rumoured 63 is to be believed then 189 is a huge chunk.. besides a platform is nvr matured or obsolete unless everything is tried , tested and known that nothing more can be done or a whole new technology had come into play which makes the present system a legacy system..

I thot French side may be bit keen for such a proposition as economies of scale is win win for both the sides and if the numbers further increase say from 189 to even more say 250-300 obviously depending upon the situation and may be a mix of Naval variant, the possibility is end less.. a partnership as u said bringing the cost effectiveness may make the bird far more attractive..

Btw do u see a dedicated say 20 aircrafts of Rafale for placement under SFC for nuclear strike? if so how many say Brahmos Mini it can carry or what kind of weapon it may have?

Also why so much negative news abt its cost and other things like Tough negotiator or blaming HAL for not having adequate resources etc are always in news..As such what i understand the failure of this deal is not acceptable to both french and indian side.. and they both need it both at political as well as economical sides..


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## sancho

PARIKRAMA said:


> Btw do u see a dedicated say 20 aircrafts of Rafale for placement under SFC for nuclear strike? if so how many say Brahmos Mini it can carry or what kind of weapon it may have?



IAF had denied reports to provide SFC with dedicated fighters and will operate all fighters and even if Rafale might be able to carry up to 3 x Brahmos mini, I think it's more likely that Nirbhay will be developed with nuclear warheads.



PARIKRAMA said:


> As such what i understand the failure of this deal is not acceptable to both french and indian side.. and they both need it both at political as well as economical sides..



Correct, it is too important for both countries to fail now, but we are very close to elections now and that can change everything. Dassault made a big mistake in delaying negotiations to get more out for Reliance, while we took too long to finish the trials and competition. But it will be interesting to see how many we buy now. If it's up to IAF, we will take the optional once and icrease the numbers from France, to counter falling squad numbers. But with the high cost, LCA MK2 aimed on production at the same time as Rafale in India and FGFA coming only a few years later, all of them could be used to add squads and LCA would be far cheaper, while more FGFA adds clear technological and operational advantages.


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## PARIKRAMA

sancho said:


> If it's up to IAF, we will take the optional once and icrease the numbers from France, to counter falling squad numbers. But with the high cost, LCA MK2 aimed on production at the same time as Rafale in India and FGFA coming only a few years later, all of them could be used to add squads and LCA would be far cheaper, while more FGFA adds clear technological and operational advantages.




Interesting Sancho.. suppose if i am the seller i,e say in Dassault side or say in french government side also, if i look at India and see its planned acquisition program like upgradation of SU 30 MKI to super sukhois, LCA MK2 plans and FGFA as well as factor in certain unforseen delays, would nt it be a prudent business sense to make India a strategic partner and ensure that this deal size is so good and big that they are there with IAF for next 40-50 years for sure.. Meaning a sweet deal which India cant close its eyes at all and ensure that Rafale reaches a similar number like Su 30 MKIs. Also open up more avenues for naval variant also to lure IN also into the fray.. that way a gud part of work and employment would always be there for French economy also.. sumthn which political leaders wud be very happy to project


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## Last Samuri

There is less need for Rafale now then say 10 years ago heck even 5 years ago.

firstly IAF are adding super sukhoi to the fleet which bring some the rafales deep strike and cruise missle ability to the table.

Second LCA mk1 has been accepted by IAF even if its only 40 + MK2 to follow all indications are LCA is now a definite induction programme for 123 fighters between now and 2024...

Third IAF has started upgrades to 180 fighters ie Mig29smt Mirage2000-5 & Jaguar to make them more survivable and adapt to multi role capability to forfill some of the MMRCA reqyuirements .

finally Russians will ready with PAK FA by 2018 AND fgfa WILL surely follow 4 years later should IAF comitt and find the $30 billion to order 144 planes and to pay for funding.

In the future IAF fighters will carry
Brahmos 200KM cruise missle
Nirbhay 800 km cruise missle
Astra BVR mk1 & mk2
Helina ASM
SURDASHAN LGB

im not convinced we need this uber expensive MMRCA from France

I we order this and spend $25 billion we jepodise the future FGFA contract and growth prospects of LCA mk2 and the above weapons projects.

DONT DO IT WE DONT NEED THEM

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## sancho

PARIKRAMA said:


> would nt it be a prudent business sense to make India a strategic partner...Meaning a sweet deal which India cant close its eyes at all and ensure that Rafale reaches a similar number like Su 30 MKIs.



French politicians and even parts of the industry might have interest. With Dassault however it seems more problematic. 
If the US combines the sale of catapults to us, with the procurement of US fighters, similar to what the Russians did with the sale of the carrier, I don't see much chances for Rafale in IN.


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## halloweene

The last time i spoke to a Dassault executive, they seemed very commited. But the process of ToT is very complex to set up.

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## PARIKRAMA

This is my understanding

Logically any program of an aircraft being designed and produced requires time and money. The number of aircraft's produced over time tilts the costing downwards what is known simply as economies of scale...
Now coming to present situation.. The deal holds not only significance to India but more to France... 
Why to France
1. The costing needs to come down any ways
2. The proven platform needs wider acceptance beyond French Airforce
3. A 15-20 Billion scalp is something which makes ppl look at the bird second time to understand why India Chose it
4. The political ramifications are huge domestically in case the deal is lost
5. The scope of employment and the project future would slow down
6. European nations economic growth is somewhat lower than India which has a demand supply curve way for economic growth.. the supply is set to rise up so expect growth to pick up too meaning more budget for newer purchases
7. Scope of selling other weapon system like scorpene etc meaning new deals, money and employment guarantee for future

Why to India
1. IAF pressure as MMRCA is a long process
2. The concept of point defense by LCA Mk1 and MK2, air superiority by SU 30 MKI, stealth configuration via FGFA and omnirole via Rafale.. The rest of the birds what we have over time needs to be replaced and the birds i quoted needs to be manufactured as well as factor in delays in production & induction..
3. The political ramification of not able to close a deal making investment clause under the contract void and slowing the process of development of aero industry in India as private players first time had been roped in a big way.
4. The ability to partner with France and Dassault for further enhancing the bird and upgrades which can be more custom made
5. The continuous support of France for Permanent Membership to Security Council and the support at international level
6. The viable alternative to Russia and USA for defense purchases giving us the bargaining power
7. Utilisation of this deal to get newer things like investment of France on power projects via Areva as well as def purchases for Navy (Scorpene subs etc)

The deal just cant be thrown away. What is written till now on papers/media is nothing but false advertisement. The costs , capability etc are all myths and here say by fanboys and ppl. Every airforce of country would choose the best possible platform based on the budget, availability and country relationship resulting into political, economical and international stature gains. That is why Brazil choose Saab, UAE chose Euro Typhon, Pakistan choose JF 17. Each of the countries are smart enough to know what suits them best. There is nothing which may indicate an inferiority or superiority. Nobody should forget that all of them are machines and are under the control of a human being and brain.. So its the concept of best skill set which will prove the superiority. The country which invests in proper training, mock tests and big exercises would be better prepared then who does not. Hence the fanboys claim of any aircraft being superior or inferior is utter gibberish..

Let me quote a simple example.. If u buy a laptop of best latest configuration and give it to a user who does nt know how to utilise the lappy or has medium skillset or best skill set, u can automatically know what could be the result in each of the cases. 

my understanding of a pros and cons analysis says india is signing a 126+63 followon order (supposedly) + a new understanding that Rafale would be upgraded from 4.5++ to much closer to 5/4.5+++ except certain stealth configuration which are not possible. the sweetening of deal is not known till some insider let us know.. but be certain, this deal is going through.. whatever negative publicity happens, its still and it will be signed between Dassault and India

this is just my pure understanding

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## halloweene

100% agree.


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## sancho

halloweene said:


> The last time i spoke to a Dassault executive, they seemed very commited. But the process of ToT is very complex to set up.



They should be, not only because they lost Brazil and the UAE are milking France badly, but because of the advantages it would give French industry to get additional fundings for upgrades, reduced costs for the production of parts and the unit costs for the fighter and French weapons. The problem is only, that this commitment came very late only in the Indian tender, compared to what we could see in Brazil, or even how far you are ready to compromise with the UAE an matters not related with the Rafale. 
Btw, you had a report about the Rafaut multi pylon for C130s on your (if I'm not wrong) website, which also are producing the pylons for Rafale. Is it safe to assume that any stealth weapon pod that Rafale might get in future, will be developed by them?


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## sancho

PARIKRAMA said:


> Each of the countries are smart enough to know what suits them best. *There is nothing which may indicate an inferiority or superiority.* Nobody should forget that all of them are machines and are under the control of a human being and brain.. *So its the concept of best skill set which will prove the superiority.* The country which invests in proper training, mock tests and big exercises would be better prepared then who does not. Hence the fanboys claim of any aircraft being superior or inferior is utter gibberish..



That's not correct, you can compare fighters on their technical capabilities and can say the one is better than the other. If you know requirements of a country in a fighter competition, you can also so which fighters suits better to the requirements. But at the end of the day, many competitions are decided by politics or the plain reality of low financial budgets as seen in Switzerland and Brazil now. They both wanted more out of the deal, but had to take the one that they can afford at the end and not the one that might be technically better, or offered more political / strategic benefits. 
For us industrial and operational advantages were more important than politics and the increased costs were a calculated risk, that was taken to get more return for our industry too. The problem now however is, that such high expenses will not be very popular during elections and too many Indians will blind themselfs with LCA achieving IOC2, ignoring that LCA is still years away from operational service and even further away from Rafales operational capabilities. Will be interesting to see what BJP and AAP will state wrt MMRCA if the deal is not cleared in the next few weeks.


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## halloweene

sancho said:


> They should be, not only because they lost Brazil and the UAE are milking France badly, but because of the advantages it would give French industry to get additional fundings for upgrades, reduced costs for the production of parts and the unit costs for the fighter and French weapons. The problem is only, that this commitment came very late only in the Indian tender, compared to what we could see in Brazil, or even how far you are ready to compromise with the UAE an matters not related with the Rafale.
> Btw, you had a report about the Rafaut multi pylon for C130s on your (if I'm not wrong) website, which also are producing the pylons for Rafale. Is it safe to assume that any stealth weapon pod that Rafale might get in future, will be developed by them?



I dont know. The only thing i know is that such a stealth weapon pod was designed for Korean tender in 2002 i think


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## halloweene

Not my blog btw, i simply write some articles in. Did you like the one on stealth and radars?


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## Taygibay

Dear Parikrama,




PARIKRAMA said:


> That is why Brazil choose Saab, UAE chose Euro Typhon, Pakistan choose JF 17. Each of the countries are smart enough to know what suits them best.


Sorry Parik but that contains a huge error, check here :
UAE pulls out of BAE Eurofighter Typhoon deal | GulfNews.com
Britain's ambitions in the Gulf suffer blow as UAE rejects Typhoon deal - Telegraph

The second of these articles, however confirms part two of what Sancho answered you on weapons deal, namely that they often are more dependent on geo-politics than on the arms themselves. He was also partially right in saying that you can compare jets. The only restriction I would put on that being that some fighters are built around a very specific tactical view/complement and that you are also thus partially right in putting the abilities of the air force and its pilots forward. You can compare SHornets, Typhies and Raffys. Comparing F-22 with Rafale is different though. One on one the Rafale does more whereas the Raptor does what it does a little better although we'd have to see each try to invade say China to confirm that? But that's also where such comparisons become skewed as you'd really have to compare the Rafale to a combo of F-22s and F-35s since these are meant for use as a duo? And if that seems to favor the US choice, you'd then have to factor in the price of each solution. And so on. It all has to be put back into context.
Sancho was also correct on the huge differences between LCA whichever Mk and Rafale. Many other Indian posters often seem to think that Tejas = Rafale which is honestly ludicrous. He was however wrong in saying :


sancho said:


> I guess we are too distracted by LCA and FGFA, while the French side (mainly Dassault) is not eager to see India as a real partner.


I find it strange how so many folks confuse Dassault with Rafale international at best and the French govt at worse. Right before that remark, he mentioned HMS, IRST, EW and missiles, none of which are Dassault products! So faulting Dassault in the same post is squarely illogical? Especially since real co-development on the plane itself is ridiculous as, again and again sorry to be blunt, the people that made LCA are not up to the task of making a Rafale 2.0, period.
The same holds for the engines & equipment by the way. In order to successfully share development, you need one of the 2 following situations : the 2 firms are close in capacity and split the workload along each's forte/strongpoints or you qualify one as lead and integrator over the others ( nEUROn ). The bad choice is to split the job for socio-political reasons ( ex. : Typhoon's 2 diff. factories for wings : L Italy R Spain Eurofighter Production ).
THAT is the bug Dassault really had with HAL's role in the MMRCA deal. I agree 100% that this role was outlined in the RFP/tender on India's side but just as much that the past does not warrant entrusting crore, result, limb and life to a corp known for dragging its feet and falling behind expectations. You are entitled to disagree with that view but not to pin anything else on Dassault which by the way has JVs in India as Thales does.
The problem then falls back on governments. On GoI's side lays the responsibility of becoming less rigid and creative about its armament industry's deals. On the Fr Govt's side falls pretty much everything else. Our politicos have no more long-term memory than long-term vision and cannot be trusted to commit to hard decisions. I personally think it would have been an all-out win-win situation for France to : make a joint offer to export the Rafale to BOTH India and Brazil with local assembly lines AND subcontracting some manufacturing to each while at the same time making them minor partners in the development of the MLU and later junior partners in the development of the successor. The complexity of that deal would have been balanced by the economy of scale and a sales agreement : Brazil for South / Central America, India for Asia below PAK_Bharat_Taiwan line Australia excluded and France the rest of the world. This would also have put France in a more normal philosophico-political alignment with a human globalization that its past and universalistic ideas call for thus insuring the creation of a third axis to the US/cash-led and Communist Ru/China one making the world truly multipolar!
Sadly, I don't believe that on average my politicians have the mental or moral abilities to see that far and that clearly. L'esprit des Lumières does not shine farther than 5 years ( to the next electoral deadline? ) anymore. Neither Sarkozy nor Hollande nor even Chirac before them are closer to De Gaulle than Modi or Kejriwal are to Gandhi ( The Mahatma not Rahul ).

There is one more reason for India to press on with this deal though than tech or IAF numbers : it was expressed in the last part of your Post :
For India 6- The viable alternative to Russia and USA for defense purchases giving us the bargaining power
That is simply brilliant, my friend. India should keep all options alive by spreading its contracts until it can fulfill them all internally!!! Sign Ru/US/Fr wherever and whenever needed to keep the supply lines open. Once national autonomy is achieved, cutting buys to one or all will in fact be either political leverage or subtle warring. How very Clauswitzian of you, chap! If anyone shows more honesty in the process, it will always be time to make a new true friend? 

The alternative being that in 50 years, we all buy Chinese? OMG! 


Good day all, Tay.


P.S. No need for a dedicated Squadron to be put under SFC, mate! All Rafales are fully interoperable with one another as this was one of the bases of the program and apart from optional equipment that can be rapidly changed ( 1-1/2 H at worst ), they all can do everything, a plus that is mostly overlooked compared to tranche/block programs. Our Nuke Rafales do deep strike with Scalp when not needed for Nuclear alert and any bird can be reassigned to any unit for instance? The only mod needed is the govt authorization box!

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## sancho

halloweene said:


> I dont know. The only thing i know is that such a stealth weapon pod was designed for Korean tender in 2002 i think



For the Korean tender? That's surprising, I heared about showcasing the AESA demo but weapon pods back then, when even Rafales A2G capabilities were basic is strange. Do you have any reports or links about that, would be interesting.



halloweene said:


> Not my blog btw, i simply write some articles in. Did you like the one on stealth and radars?



Yes and I found it interesting, my perception however is a bit different, since "stealth" and "low observability" are not the same. "Stealth" capability in it's core begins with the design of the aircraft, that is aimed to offer as less signatures (no matter if EM, IR...) as possible and that is not the case for the Rafale.
Yes it has a low IR signature, but not because it hides the engine exhaust like the B2 does, nor does it use nozzles similar to the F22, or even cooling materials behind the exhaust like the YF23 did, as part of their designs. Rafales low IR signature comes from the engine itself and that might give it an advantage to other 4th & 4.5th gen fighters, but not to stealth fighters / aircrafts.
Same goes for the RCS reductions, where the Rafale incorporates a lot of features, but it still is dependent on external payloads, which again makes it better than most 4th & 4.5th gen fighters, but not to stealth fighters / aircrafts.

The key advantage of Rafale however, are it's advanced passive detection and weapon guidance capabilities and that's where it's very close to a 5th gen capabilities. Being able to attack air and ground target roughly 60Km around the fighter, without the need to use active guidance, or to make itself detectable is a huge advantage and what sets it apart from most comparable fighters. So the EWS, optronics capabilities in combination with the unique features of MICA (IR - passive BVR attack, AASM - multiple stand off range attacks in 1 pass) makes the Rafale so advanced and to an extend comparable to 5th gen fighters wrt tactics. At the end of the day however, real stealth capabilities puts those tactics to a whole different level than Rafale currently can achieve and that's why internal carriage of fuel and weapons are a must have for Rafales future.


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## sancho

Taygibay said:


> I find it strange how so many folks confuse Dassault with Rafale international at best and the French govt at worse. Right before that remark, he mentioned HMS, IRST, EW and missiles, none of which are Dassault products! So faulting Dassault in the same post is squarely illogical?



 Actually, that is not illogical at all, since Dassault is a major shareholder in Thales and even showed how much influence they have by pressuring Thales to back out of a possible deal with Saab, to provide RBE 2 AESA demonstrator for the Gripen NG.

However that wasn't my point, but that it would be beneficial for the French side (Thales, Sagem and Dassault) to offer India a partnership in the F3R upgrade (we were talking about Indias say in possible upgrades), that will come at the same time as the licence production in India is aimed to start as well and therefor could include jointly developed techs and capabilities or weapon additions. The fact that the F3R instead is only focused on the needs of French forces instead, shows the limited interest in a real partnership. Thinks like the the Gerfault HMS, NG IRST, PDL-NG, MICA/Maitri NG, AASM modifications could be funded, developed and produced together, instead of India being just a possible buyer of these features. 
It can even go the other way around, with Indian Helina ATGM being jointly developed as a low collateral damage and cost-effective weapon, that the French forces are requesting since Libya. The joint development than could include French requirements and still would be cheaper than the high costs the Brits asked for Brimstone integration. So both sides can benefit from joint developments of the upgrade, while that would increase the chances not only for a fast decision, but also for increased numbers and ease ToT. 

And I mentioned mainly Dassault since they, unlike Thales (that teamed up with Samtel years ago) or the former president Sarkozy had showed much more interest in the Indian deal, than Dassault. They also are the restricting part in the negotiations with the UAE, which even French government forced to publicly voice their anger. So if Dassault would had seen India as more than just a customer and even earlier, they can and could had benefitted way more, maybe even got the Brazilian deal (Brazilian defence minister tried to convince India to joint Rafale productions).


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## halloweene

Sancho, we don't know what partnerships are offered, and F3R standard are already defined and funded (or so). Partnership would be about F4 Std.
About the weapon case, it is a personal communication of a Dassault vice president (good restaurant btw ) ).
About the article, are you sure we are talking about the part 2?

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## halloweene

About foruming and my supposed animosity towards Mr Jon Lake, here is the reason : Pete Collins has flown Tornado F2 ; GR1 ; GR4, Kai T50, M346, F16B, Mirage 2000...(as its gonna be released in Air Fan this month i can dislose it). So much for people who criticized his knowledge of modern FBW jets after his article Rampant Rafale.


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## PARIKRAMA

*Heard Some News ... posting it .. hopefully it turns out as true..*

*TUESDAY, JANUARY 7, 2014*
EXCLUSIVE! MMRCA on the move?
Neelam Mathews
Jan 7, 2014

While many have been skeptical about the MMRCA contract - not without reason- AerospaceDiary is hearing there is a CCS today to view the contract/project. This could not be confirmed from an official source.
Should this come through, India's defense industry, hopefully, will get the much needed push- given that all issues related to the DPP are cleared with sane thinking. Hopefully vested interests will not stall the project. We are hearing the MMRCA is quoted in international circles as one of the best evaluations done on a military project.


_About Neelam Matthews: Contributing editor to numerous international publications on business aviation, defense and commercial aviation. Also write for ENR, a Mc Graw Hill publication. Contributed to Aviation Week for 12 years writing on aviation, space, defense, overhaul and maintenance and business aviation. Was Editorial Director to 3 MRO Asia events in Singapore and Hong Kong. _


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## PARIKRAMA

Continuing from precious post #8848

The rumor soon began Jan. 2, via the aerospacediary blog , run by an Indian journalist, who then announced that a first contract could be signed with the GIE Rafale by 15 February. Today, that same person returns to the charge , announcing a meeting of the Cabinet Committee on Security should be held today, but will not be officially confirmed. 

The reporter seems to have these sources, and the image of the folha Sao Paulo which the rumor was confirmed, hope things are confirmed. 

Two years now after selecting the Rafale by India at the end of the most big competition ever organized, and entered into exclusive negotiations between the Indian government and the GIE Rafale International (Economic Interest Grouping combining Dassault Aviation, Thales and Safran), 

India seems to speed things up.Several perspectives, including elections in May 2014 that will prevent any decision of this order of importance during the campaign. 

The other perspective is it economic. Indian rupee continues to devalue, which has the mechanical effect of increasing the contract price.

Although much of the aircraft will be manufactured and assembled in India, the first 18 aircraft will be delivered by Dassault Aviation and produced entirely in France. 

There is also an important part of technology transfer payable to French companies and the exchange rate plays a lot. 

As usual, the main actors refuse to comment. 

Ongoing negotiations, but also the preparation of contracts has been one of the most complex Dassault Aviation had to lead. 

Not far from a hundred employees are also present in India Indian companies to audit and prepare tens of thousands of pages necessary, prior to the final signature.


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## halloweene

Do i recognize the source ))


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## sancho

halloweene said:


> Sancho, we don't know what partnerships are offered, and F3R standard are already defined and funded



That's the point! It is defined and funded for French requirements only, but it could had been jointly defined and funded for French and Indian requirements!
Now the F3R hardly has any importance for India as I showed, while the risk of us MKIzing it with Israeli techs and weapons, that French forces don't need and other export customers can't procure is high. So instead of a win-win situation for both countries and a possible higher commitment of India to Rafale, France is losing a huge chance. 
I agree with you that India might have a say in future upgrades beyond the F3R, but that doesn't increase the number of Rafales India will order, or the commitment India would have. It only gives India more options to add techs or capabilities to the available fighters, without being dependent on what France offers, like we are now at Mirage 2000 upgrade. 




halloweene said:


> About the article, are you sure we are talking about the part 2?



No, I was refering to part 1 and the earlier Rafale vs F35 reports, didn't had the time to check the site for some time now.


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## Jayanta

Does anybody have an idea what would be the difference in the per aircraft price if we buy them from Dassault rather than manufacturing it in India under ToT? If the price difference is huge, why not buy them from Dassault directly and use the money saved to make more MK2 or develop facilities for AMCA.


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## PARIKRAMA

the tender terms were 18 birds directly and rest 108 manufactured in india.. so i am afraid its not possible..some times back some folks did suggest that to speed up procurement and induction into IAF, instead of 18 birds take 36 at flyaway condition and rest manufactured in India.. but again that wud also invite issues of favouritism as no such clause is there in the tender as other parties may state that such conditions meant our bids wud have been better than what we quoted..


BTW MK2 wud be still in light class and AMCA wud be most probably inducted when all rafales wud be already manufactured or few birds wud be sent to upgrade to may b F4R.. no sarcasm here.. rather reality as post design, testing, IOC and FOC to mass production would mean Rafale fully manufactured for india and may be potential follow on order may be getting manufactured at that time


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## sancho

Jayanta said:


> Does anybody have an idea what would be the difference in the per aircraft price if we buy them from Dassault rather than manufacturing it in India under ToT? If the price difference is huge, why not buy them from Dassault directly and use the money saved to make more MK2 or develop facilities for AMCA.



Because we wouldn't get any ToT and offsets in return. In which companies should Dassault invest, if they produce all Rafale in France with French industry?
The aim of M-MRCA was to get as much as possible for Indian industry and not just to get a new fighter, otherwise MoD would had followed IAFs suggestion and would have gone with more M2K-5s in the first MRCA competition. And exactly this "return" for Indian industry, is what delays the final decision, because Dassault need to find the right partners to fulfill our offset and ToT requirements.


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## Taygibay

sancho said:


> Actually, that is not illogical at all, since Dassault is a major shareholder in Thales and even showed how much influence they have by pressuring Thales to back out of a possible deal with Saab, to provide RBE 2 AESA demonstrator for the Gripen NG.



About Dassault 's share of Thales, it is less than 30%.
But EADS share of Dassault is 46%
TCI hedge fund ups pressure on EADS over Dassault Aviation stake - FT.com
Are you thus implying that EADS which ownsCassidian or Typhoon if you prefer is partly responsible for Dassault stance? Because if you are not then my illogical comment stands in full  Hum?



sancho said:


> And I mentioned mainly Dassault since they, unlike Thales (that teamed up with Samtel years ago) or the former president Sarkozy had showed much more interest in the Indian deal, than Dassault.


Wrong again : 3DPLM Software Solutions Limited :: A Joint venture of Dassault Systemes & Geometric Software Solutions Limited
And before you argue that it is ONLY software, let me remind you that while Dassault is in the top 5 fighter manufacturers, it is NUMBER 1 in the world of conception / design, modelization to production software as evidenced by its CATIA clients list : Airbus, Boeing, General Dynamics, Bombardier, Embraer, Bell, Sikorsky, Eurofighter et al the JH-7 and LCA having both been done on it? ( And just about the whole automobile industry WWide. )

CATIA found taught here :
Siemens Training Pune | PLM Training Pune | MIT Skills
by the said JV?

So that in fact, Dassault teamed up with India for its flagship product but you hold to the idea that they don't like/trust it? I don't know what motivates your denial and anger at them but let me venture ( not joint, strictly my own  ) this : Dassault chose India for computer products because the mathematical abilities of children of Bharat are millenary and legendary which can't be denied just as it would rather have taught Reliance from scratch than be forced to deal with the also legendary slow and clumsy working habits of HAL? That simple!

But as you went on to reiterate, the point is mostly that of the armament and systems that could be co-developed. On that, I personally have no problem. It is only that I doubt the French govt is interested. Some of your proposals hinge on stuff required by India that was denied to the Fr forces. I doubt that the Govt that wouldn't finance these in the first place would do that especially since they want to limit the very number of fighters to be acquired? And even then, you have to remember the Lancaster House treaties that are inching forward and would take precedence as they concern the same stuff?

In an ideal world, maybe all 3 countries would consolidate over them but that would make Brits a senior partner to Indians and I am not convinced that you desis would like that? Too soon? At least if it happened, you guys might come to see that us French are not so bad after all? 

In any case, the news about the contract if confirmed will change the scope of our discussion. It will become a more rational matter of imagining developments based on the revealed set-up? I hope that comes soon. The MRCA/MMRCA saga has endured enough. Please let us move into realization proper.

Thanks Parik for the news and good day all, Tay.


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## Dazzler

for a moment, forget Rafale and enjoy the Mirage 2000-5 upgraded, being tested in France, notice a new EW and sensor/ antennae changes..

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## airmarshal

Just realized this thread is almost 10 years old and India still does not have the jets! 

India really moves at speed of light. If it takes this long to negotiate, by the time India flies those planes, newer technologies will already be there! Bravo.

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## trident2010

airmarshal said:


> Just realized this thread is almost 10 years old and India still does not have the jets!
> 
> India really moves at speed of light. If it takes this long to negotiate, by the time India flies those planes, newer technologies will already be there! Bravo.



These huge deals take time and for India it takes extra time  . As it is IAF is not in too much hurry as they have Su-30 MKIs, Mig-29s, Mirage 2000-5s etc to tackle any immediate threat. Rafale should be coming along with LCA and FGFA in say 8-10 years. 5th gen technology is already 20 years old but it won't be operational in any other airforce for next 5-8 years. So I wouldn't be too worried about losing few years and advancement of technology.


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## sancho

Taygibay said:


> About Dassault 's share of Thales...



Hehe, the usual Taygibay way of denial and distraction. Not that I'm surprised, nor would it bother me too much, it's not the first time that you wildly post links that have nothing to do with the topic, just to act as if you would have a point. But I enjoy it when you reply to others at the end, that I'm actually are right. 

I don't need to lecture you on the fact that Dassault Aviations share in Thales is nearly as big as the French governments and includes voting rights, which is the reason why they can pressure Thales to, or out of JV's if they want.
Or that the EADS shares in Dassault Aviation, doesn't include any voting rights and basically are a safty feature for Dassault itself.
Just that Dassault Systems... teaming up with 3DPML...has nothing to do with Indian aero industry, Rafale, or the MMRCA.at all. So no further need to waste my time on that.
The funny part however is, that you still think that I am talking bad about Dassault and in favour for India, while I actually point out, that Dassault missed a huge chance to gain more from the Indian deal, therefor to get more benefits themselfs!!!

In your denial mode, you don't even understand that India gets what it wanted anyway:

an advanced multi role fighter
high ammount of ToT and offsets
HAL being the main contractor of the deal (and no further workshare of Reliance)
That's why I am more than happy since the day Rafale was selected, but if Dassault had judged the potential of India better, they would had focused on speeding up ToT negotiations instead of delaying it, or offering joint upgrade developments (FSO-NG, PDL-NG, Gerfaut HMS), instead just on outscourcing of currently available but not very capable production parts (FSO-IR, Damocles LDP, Topsight HMS) that French forces don't want anymore. The earlier would imply seeing India as a partner and a chance for Rafales future, the later just sees India as an export customer. So the loss is actually on the French side, by not getting a reliable partner for Rafales future!


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## Taygibay

sancho said:


> Hehe, the usual Taygibay way of denial and distraction. Not that I'm surprised, nor would it bother me too much, it's not the first time that you wildly post links that have nothing to do with the topic, just to act as if you would have a point. But I enjoy it when you reply to others at the end, that I'm actually are right.



OK Sancho, once again I will have to end this discussion with you as logic has gone down the drain. You resort to name calling and disrespecting my reasoning abilities but are happy that I acknowledge your being right on a given point? Sorry kid but that is downright stupid. If I am a distracted denier with useless sources and no point then the fact that I say you are right should be a proof that what you say is of the same nature now shouldn't it?

Shareholding | Thales Group
As a matter of fact, that ludicrous absence of logic and reversal of what you do to others is evidence. You can fabulate all you want, anyone that opens my links such as the one above will have proof of the contrary. The French state is the majority decider for Thalès, as much is stated in that page.
Dassault teaming with an Indian corp A- contradicts past comments of yours on their supposed aversion of some sort to it and B- shows that for you to say that it does not relate to aviation in view of the fact that I listed for you the companies that use it just for that purpose is the exact denial of which you accused me.



sancho said:


> HAL being the main contractor of the deal (and no further workshare of Reliance)



Copied to HD! Please don't mind if I eventually bring in back to you later as a "distraction" when the results are made public

As for your last paragraph, it shows gall over brains. While I agree to the general idea that it seems there should have been more partnership offered by France and said so in my post ♯8843 in clear terms ( clearer than any of yours ), there are two major errors in it.
A- You know nothing of the "delaying it" of ToT negotiations in this deal unless you work for the GoI in which case you'd be contractually obligated to shut your big mouth and not to take part in fora discussions and the same goes for the offering/outsourcing part;
B- from which I can again extract a proof of your dreaming up stuff as in the listing of Gerfault in the joint dev. part and Topsight in the seller only one being followed by


sancho said:


> that French forces don't want anymore.


when the said French Forces got neither in the first place which makes it impossible for them to not want them anymore? You really shouldn't talk in place and name of my country's armed forces, at least until you speak the language for instance? 

But hey, sure, my stating facts & providing sources is stupidity and your shoveling Unicorn manure is Holy Truth. What can I say, I can only play the hand that was dealt to me and _me so stoopid, babu!_
Tssssssk! Ground control to Major Troll : out!


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## Gessler

airmarshal said:


> Just realized this thread is almost 10 years old and India still does not have the jets!
> 
> India really moves at speed of light. If it takes this long to negotiate, by the time India flies those planes, newer technologies will already be there! Bravo.



10 years! There was no MMRCA competition ten years ago and we had only begun inducting Su-30MKIs at that time.

And what new technologies are you talking about?


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## Taygibay

Not news but the latest argument around the MMRCA asking for it to be signed ASAP :
DASSAULT RAFALE DEAL MUSTN’T BE DELAYED - Journey Line Newspaper

Good day all, Tay.


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## shanixee

Maybe it will get delayed by the end of 2014


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## Last Samuri

Cancel it completely they don't need now. 

272 flankers. The rest mirages jays mig29 and tejas


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## YouGotRouged

Last Samuri said:


> Cancel it completely they don't need now.
> 
> 272 flankers. The rest mirages jays mig29 and tejas


Disagree, India needs the tech and supplier-independence.


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## cloud_9

We can expect a closure to this deal in January


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## PARIKRAMA

*THURSDAY, JANUARY 9, 2014*
AIN DEFENSE PERSPECTIVE » JANUARY 10, 2014[/paste:font]

by NEELAM MATHEWS



India chose Dassualt's Rafale for its medium multi-role combat aircraft in 2012. (Photo: Neelam Mathews)
January 9, 2014, 8:15 AM
With national elections looming in India, speculation is growing that contracts for the long-delayed medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA), as well as the multi-role tanker transport (MRTT), could soon be signed. India announced its choice of the Rafale in January 2012. But negotiations subsequently stalled over offsets, the transfer of technology and the role of Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL). 
Delays in procurement are taking a toll on military force levels as Indian Air Force (IAF) squadrons deplete. This has resulted in pressure on the Ministry of Defense to increase the pace for awarding pending contracts. A government code of conduct prevents any contracts being awarded within 45 days of an election. The national election is expected to be called by March, also the end of the financial year.
“If the contract is signed soon, it will be nothing but a paper deal that ensures commitment of the government. We can expect delays after the first 18 aircraft, since the remaining fighters will be built under license with transfer of technology. The government wants to ensure the contract is penned so that the [basic choice] cannot be questioned by subsequent governments,” said an official associated with the project. An official at the MoD noted that signature of the MMRCA contract would restore the confidence of international OEMs, which has been shaken by the recent scandal over the AW101 procurement. 
Following lengthy discussions, HAL is thought to have now agreed with Dassault on the question of Tier 1 suppliers, including aerostructures.
An IAF official said that a new refueling tanker is a priority. A meeting between the Indian MoD and Airbus Defence and Space on the MRTT that was delayed last year following the death of the senior acquisition official has been scheduled for mid-January, *AIN* has learned from an informed source close to the program. Since the A330 MRTT can also be used as a pure transporter for 300 troops, plus a cargo payload of up to 45 tons (99,000 pounds), or to accommodate up to 130 stretchers for medical evacuation, it will bring immediate benefits to the IAF. “This contract has no political overtones or baggage attached to it,” said the IAF official.


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## halloweene

F3R contract officially launched today (810 million euros). And there will be a 5th production tranche.



> *Dassault Aviation* ‏@Dassault_OnAir1 min
> "L'avenir du Rafale est assuré car il y aura une cinquième tranche de production." Ministre de la Défense

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## halloweene

F3R standard officially launched, 5th tranche announced

http://translate.google.com/transla...-rafale-f3r-sur-les-rails.html&langpair=fr|en

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## sathya

India May sign interim deal for 18 Rafael's
- IDRW


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## Abingdonboy

*MMRCA:**
@G_Steuer
Sources here seem to confirm that India will sign for its first Rafales in the coming weeks.https://twitter.com/G_Steuer/status/421615944767922176
(Guillaume steuer,from Air&Cosmos, is covering the visit of the French MoD at Dassault Merignac)

‏@AlainRuello
# Rafale 'in India we try to finalize all the documents before the elections' (Dassault CEO Eric Trappier)
https://twitter.com/AlainRuello/stat...22581297688576

@AlainRuello
# Rafale 'I am optimistic about a rapid conclusion in india' (Dassault CEO Eric Trappier)
https://twitter.com/AlainRuello/stat...19502334627840*

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## PoKeMon

sathya said:


> India May sign interim deal for 18 Rafael's
> - IDRW



Yaar its Rafale not Rafael. Rafael is Israeli arm company.


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## sathya

IND_PAK said:


> Yaar its Rafale not Rafael. Rafael is Israeli arm company.



I guess my I pad is having close link with Israel than French 
Auto spell it goes to Rafael ..


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## Abingdonboy



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## sancho

halloweene said:


> F3R contract officially launched today (810 million euros). And there will be a 5th production tranche.



That there would be another order beyond the 180, isn't that surprising, but the amount of the contract is quiet high. Are the METEOR intrgration and PDL-NG development costs included in this figure and what else is?


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## Gessler

sancho said:


> That there would be another order beyond the 180, isn't that surprising, but the amount of the contract is quiet high. Are the METEOR intrgration and PDL-NG development costs included in this figure and what else is?



Something you may find interesting; from Jan 9 -

French DGA Awards Development Contract for New Generation Laser Designation Pod PDL NG


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## halloweene

Le Rafale F3-R officiellement lancé - Air&Cosmos



> Interrogé quant à la possible signature prochaine d'un contrat en Inde, Eric Trappier a confié avoir "un calendrier très précis pour finaliser les détails du contrat" avant le 31 mars, sans toutefois préjuger d'une signature éventuelle. Le dirigeant de Dassault Aviation a cependant précisé qu'il faudrait environ trois ans entre la signature d'un contrat et la livraison des premiers appareils.



Very clear timetable so as to finalize contract details before march 31st


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## halloweene

Gessler said:


> Something you may find interesting; from Jan 9 -
> 
> French DGA Awards Development Contract for New Generation Laser Designation Pod PDL NG


PDL NG is part of the F3R standard.


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## PoKeMon

sathya said:


> I guess my I pad is having close link with Israel than French
> Auto spell it goes to Rafael ..


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## halloweene

Abingdonboy said:


>


intersting quotes about dogfight at 33'...


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## Taygibay

Old if valid stuff, Halloweene! Rut was one of the 2 Solo Display pilots at the Dubai Airshow 2009 that was held concurrent to a given ATLC exercise ... if you see what I mean? So only logical that he'd know about some specific results?

 Tay.
Definitive Lapse of Reason | Independent news, views and thoughts on Our World; not "theirs".


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## halloweene

Well, if you know him, you may recognize his voice in a certain video 

Thx for your new year wishes btw.


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## kbd-raaf

halloweene said:


> Well, if you know him, you may recognize his voice in a certain video
> 
> Thx for your new year wishes btw.



Hey bud,

Can you confirm or deny whether compressor stage technology will be transferred from Snecma for the engine? Specifically the materials and manufacturing processes for turbine blades and discs (LPT and HPT? Probably the most crucial parts of the engine?


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## Abingdonboy

Jhttp://Dassault bosses in India to seal 'mother of all defence deals' | Mail Online

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## halloweene

kbd-raaf said:


> Hey bud,
> 
> Can you confirm or deny whether compressor stage technology will be transferred from Snecma for the engine? Specifically the materials and manufacturing processes for turbine blades and discs (LPT and HPT? Probably the most crucial parts of the engine?


i have to ask first


----------



## PARIKRAMA

*Will Rafale F3R Upgrade Impact Indian MMRCA Procurement?*
Source : A Defenseworld.net News Analysis ~ Dated : Monday, January 13, 2014 

As the development and integration of a new-standard Rafale fighter, the F3R gets underway by Dassault, its impact on the Indian MMRCA procurement could be significant.

With the current official information on the Indian deal being that ‘negotiations are underway’, it might just be possible that the Indian side might look at the F3R configuration seriously before freezing the aircraft configuration.

The $20 billion deal with Dassault has been delayed more than 22 months now for various reasons including not reaching an agreement over the aircraft’s lead integrator and offsets.

The new F3R standard Rafale will include a new-generation laser targeting pod and major software changes. The upgrades will complement the enhanced Thales RBE2 active electronically-scanned array (AESA) radar which will allow the aircraft to deploy the MBDA Meteor Beyond Visual Range Air-to-Air Missile (BVRAAM), along with improvements to the aircraft’s Thales SPECTRA self-defence system and Mode-5/Mode-S-compatible Identification Friend or Foe interrogator/transponder.

The logic driving the Rafale program builds on ongoing developments to adapt the aircraft to changing requirements by developing successive “standards” needed to cope with the evolving environment foreseen from about 2018, including improvements to the weapon and navigation systems, data links, radar RBE2 and the SPECTRA electronic warfare system, according to excerpts of a Dassault statement.

The upgrade will allow the aircraft can carry out different types of missions, such as ground attack and air defense and will be carry out the full range of missions that can be assigned to a combat aircraft: air superiority and air defense; attack of land and naval targets; close air support of ground troops; reconnaissance, and nuclear strike .

*Media reports say that under the terms of the MMRCA, the Rafale will come with two Scalp cruise missiles. New Thales RBE2 active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar will be fitted with next-generation sensors, the new-generation missile launch detector (DDM NG) and the new front sector optronics "Identification and Telemetry.”*

India has yet to take a call on the final list of missiles that will go on the Rafale. It stands to reason that the higher level version will be brought over the lower level version to bridge the gap between the initial procurement request and the final configuration.

Link: Will Rafale F3R Upgrade Impact Indian MMRCA Procurement?



Scalp EG:

IOC: 2003
Origin: France and United Kingdom
Contractor/s: MBDA

Description: The Storm Shadow or Scalp EG (French designation) is a long range, precision, stealth, standoff, air-to-surface missile designed to destroy heavily defended fixed targets. It is a fire and forget weapon which can be fired from low to medium altitudes with a cruise missile flight profile. The Storm Shadow and the Scalp EG are exactly the same missile but with different subassemblies to be attached to French or British aircraft and secondary equipment.

The Storm Shadow guidance system consists of an Inertial Measurement Unit updated through digital terrain profile matching and GPS (Global Positioning System). This redundancy provides good navigational precision and high resistance to countermeasures. In the Terminal phase an infrared imagery homing head compares the actual scene with its preprogrammed target scene and selects the impact point to hit the target with high precision.

The Storm Shadow/Scalp EG are planned to be used on Mirage 2000, Rafale, Tornado, Harrier and Typhoon (formerly Eurofighter). It is provided with a high effective penetrator warhead, called BROACH, to counter extremely hardened targets. This missile has been selected by the armed forces of the United Kingdom, France, Italy, Greece and the United Arab Emirates.


*:: Specifications ::*
*attached here with from MBDA





*







We can expect Brahmos Mini also once it may be operational to replace the Scalp EG.

Enjoy

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## kbd-raaf

halloweene said:


> i have to ask first



That'd be awesome if you could


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## halloweene

Got clearance to say that : DDM NG isnt a simple maws, but a wso

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## IND151

Will Rafale F3R Upgrade Impact Indian MMRCA Procurement? | idrw.org


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## halloweene

Probably not, for two reasons (i) the F3R configuration in more or less known for a year now. (ii) it is a software upgrade, fully retrofittable.


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## Gessler

halloweene said:


> Got clearance to say that : DDM NG isnt a simple maws, but a wso



WSO = Wide Sector Optronics as you said.

Meaning it offers all the capabilities of FSO (Front sector optronics) in addition to MAWS role?


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## sancho

PARIKRAMA said:


> *Media reports say that under the terms of the MMRCA, the Rafale will come with two Scalp cruise missiles. New Thales RBE2 active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar will be fitted with next-generation sensors, the new-generation missile launch detector (DDM NG) and the new front sector optronics "Identification and Telemetry.”*



=> Rafale F3+ and not F3R


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## kaykay

sancho said:


> => Rafale F3+ and not F3R


sancho, will our Rafale be equipped with upgraded/enhanced RBE2 AESA radar? I mean idrw report says so but wouldn't it delay project more? I mean current RBE2 AESA is barely operational just now and now India wants better version of this radar with enhanced capabilites.
PS: thanks in advace as Cant thank you from mobile.


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## sancho

kaykay said:


> sancho, will our Rafale be equipped with upgraded/enhanced RBE2 AESA radar? I mean idrw report says so but wouldn't it delay project more? I mean current RBE2 AESA is barely operational just now and now India wants better version of this radar with enhanced capabilites.
> PS: thanks in advace as Cant thank you from mobile.



I don't give too much about IDRW reports, the F3R has the same AESA, only with some software upgrades / additional modes, which easily can be added later and most likely will be included in the licence production anyway.


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## sancho

Some fanarts of the forumer Buitreaux, with some interesting weapon pods:


















Earlier versions:

Livefist: An Unofficial Stealth Rafale Fantasy

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## halloweene

> WSO = Wide Sector Optronics as you said.
> 
> Meaning it offers all the capabilities of FSO (Front sector optronics) in addition to MAWS role?



you got the point, but without zooming capabilities.

Trying to dig that....

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## Jungibaaz

halloweene said:


> you got the point, but without zooming capabilities.
> 
> Trying to dig that....



Good to see you here matey.


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## halloweene

hi !


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## trident2010

Any new news regarding the negotiations?


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## ejaz007

*India’s M-MRCA Fighter Competition: “We’re Sorry, HAL, We Can’t Do That”*

*Jan 13/14: Negotiations.* India Today reports that a team of French officials from Dassault, Thales and Snecma is in Bangalore talking to HAL at the IAF’s request, in an attempt to resolve the workshare and responsibilities issues that are holding up the deal. As one source put it:

“The difficult part of the negotiations over the transfer of technology and the mandatory [industrial package] spin offs have already been finalised but there is uncertainty about who will provide what”.

Given India’s proposed deal that would give HAL control over the project, but penalize Dassault for failures (q.v. April 5/13), that isn’t exactly surprising. Sources: India Today, “Dassault seeks to end Rafale log jam with IAF”.

India’s M-MRCA Fighter Competition: “We’re Sorry, HAL, We Can’t Do That”

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## halloweene

Insider news : talks processed very well.

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## Last Samuri

Rafale is. Coming I'm convinced


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## Abingdonboy

halloweene said:


> Insider news : talks processed very well.


 Can you confirm or rubbish the talk about 2 sperate deals ie one for the initial 18 to be followed by a seperate contract for 108?

And when are looking at for ink to paper?

+ @halloweene any specifcs on the breakdown of Bs and Cs? It was said the IAF was interested in a correction to the single seat:twin seat ratio of fighters to optimise the strike-mission effectivness of their fleet. Was this nonsense or what?


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## sancho

Rafale with Meteor and MICA at the external wingstations

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## sancho

P.S. Some more older configs with Meteor:

Air superiority









Deep strike

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## Water Car Engineer

sancho said:


> Rafale with Meteor and MICA at the external wingstations




Jesus, the amount of awesomeness this bird can hold.

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## halloweene

i cant say a lot about indian Rafales, its not Dassault politics to communicate on clients requirements, so each time i ask smthing its like talking to a wall.
About the just posted photo, the interesting part is the opening of 3rd wing station.


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## Last Samuri

This plane can cause some havoc over the enemey air space.


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## kingdurgaking

i Like the hard point attached to the body.. Should LCA not try this funda?


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## sancho

kingdurgaking said:


> i Like the hard point attached to the body.. Should LCA not try this funda?



Not possible, the gear bays of LCA are extending to the sides.


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## kingdurgaking

sancho said:


> Not possible, the gear bays of LCA are extending to the sides.


yeah... i forgot the missiles are very long.. a floating bridge bay door should have added some value..


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## Abingdonboy

Water Car Engineer said:


> Jesus, the amount of awesomeness this bird can hold.


I hope with the Rafale deal and the Super MKI UPG we will see dual and triple rack launchers becoming more common in the IAF/IN.

Worth a read:

Brush Up Your Rafale Knowledge - Soon To Be India's Latest Aircraft Purchase - AA Me, IN


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## Abingdonboy

*Dassault CEO interview:*

_[...]_
*The military planning law bet that 7 Rafale will be exported in 2016. Is it too late?*

_No. The White Paper on Defence decreased the size of the air force to 225 fighter planes. There are still one hundred Rafale to deliver. Budgetary problems are known and identified. So the Ministry of Defence and Dassault have made a bet to overcome this difficulty with export. If ever this bet was not won, we planned to meet again in 2015._

*So you can wait end of 2015 to sign the first contract?*

_Let us say early 2015._

*Where are you with the negotiations with India?*

_They are progressing well. It is long because it is complex. The negotiations involve the sale of 126 combat aircraft, but also the licensed production of virtually all components of the aircraft. This implies many agreements with local industry, HAL in particular. *The second difficulty is elections in India in the spring. We are mobilized to finish everything before.* If it is after, we will have to wait a new government to be formed, which will be fast, and to revisit the subject. But as the file will be prepared by the administration and the army that will remain in place, this could be finalized before the end of 2014.

*The death of the Indian chief negotiator would have disrupted the negotiations ...*

*Totally false.*

*What does the Eurofighter side, which lost in the final against the Rafale, to destabilize you?*

Whatever he does, it's not an issue for me. Eurofighter won't come back. Why would Indians start from scratch after spending so much energy for years? why as the Rafale was considered better and cheaper with a willingness to transfer important technology for the modernization of the Indian industry?

*The lesson of the failure in Brazil is that the Rafale can interest only a handful of countries ?*

If by "handful of countries' you mean at least five, then yes. The Rafale is made for war. It therefore attract the interest of countries that show a certain maturity in the field. This is the case of India.
[...]

Full interview:
http://www.lesechos.fr/entreprises-s...nce-642220.php_

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## PARIKRAMA

Rafale a worthy choice by the IAF

_Sitaramarao Yechuri 20 Jan 2014_

Like the most people of Indian origin, I have been an avid reader of news on the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) tender. It is safe to say that in the last five years many of India’s defence projects have come if not of age, at least into adolescence. The Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) is now flying as a genuine albeit underpowered and slow combat aircraft. The indigenous Kaveri jet engine operates on target except at high altitude, the crystal turbine blades not yet a proven quantity. ISRO (Indian Space Research Organisation) just delivered big on the cryogenic engine. An indigenous aircraft carrier and indigenous submarine are the next big projects promising to reach fruition. Yet the MMRCA tender has literally dragged on for so long that it could become a security concern.

In the table below are some of the aircraft relevant to India’s Air Force wherein the specifications are from Wikipedia and the photo links point to Airliners.net. The first four entries are already in use in the Indian Air Force. The Mirage-2000 is at the top of the list because the MMRCA tender began as a consequence of the Indian Air Force (IAF) being unable to buy a new batch of Mirage-2000s, since the line was being replaced by the Rafale. Some of the existing Mirage-2000s in the IAF were modernised at a unit cost almost as much as the unit cost projected in the MMRCA which in fact was much criticised ignoring the fact that unlike the MMRCA contract, the upgrade of the Mirage-2000s is actually happening as we speak and so is something the IAF can depend on. So the Mirage-2000 is what is being replaced in the MMRCA tender for about a projected 126 – 200 aircraft. The chosen successor is the Rafale and most are hopeful that a deal will be signed in 2014.










In the table above, the thrust numbers are without and with afterburner turned on. The afterburner adds power but it produces a visible infrared signature which is easy to detect in the sky. Supercruise refers to the ability to maintain supersonic flight without the afterburner, a useful characteristic in a fighter jet. Supercruise is not stealth but at least it is not as visible as an afterburner. The weight numbers are dry weight and take-off weight, so the difference determines how much you can load the aircraft with weapons pods and extra fuel. The speed number is the speed at high altitude.

The space the fighter is slated to occupy is “Medium” which means, as compared to the Su-30 MKI which as can be seen has 246 kN of thrust and can lift 45k of weapons/fuel and travel at Mach 2.35. In the IAF only, the now retired MiG-25 Foxbat was capable of higher speeds. The IAF was literally the last air force in the world to retire the MiG-25. In USA, it was the SR-71 Blackbird which travelled at that speed and it did so at extreme altitude and was a spy plane, not a combat aircraft. Even the MiG-25 was not a dogfighter. Both the MiG-25 and the SR-71 travelled high above enemy territory at Mach 2+ taking photographs with a resolution of a few metres, and whereas the SR-71 evaded it’s stalkers by extreme altitude, the MiG-25 performed evasion by brief bursts of speed up to Mach 3.

And dogfighting was one of the capabilities which the IAF tested while evaluating the MMRCA contenders. Naturally, the Russian entries all performed spectacularly in dogfighting, the MiG-35 even having thrust vectoring which means the output nozzles of the jets can be swiveled in 3D almost at will. But dogfighting was only one of the categories evaluated, BVR i.e. beyond visual range being the new buzzword of fighter jets in the last ten years. I cannot even begin to imagine the relative importance of dogfighting versus BVR but I am sure the IAF evaluators did the most thorough job.

You see the IAF tender was closely watched worldwide for a more important reason than the money involved. After all, if you consider the per unit cost which India wants to pay, there is some profit and loss for the aircraft vendors in that the majority of the aircraft will be built locally under license by HAL which means fewer jobs generated in the European country. The Brazilian order for only 36 aircrafts was $4.5 billion, no paltry sum, so why was the Indian tender so important. It is because Brazil has no enemies whereas India has two enemies in collusion and in close proximity. So India is in the thick of it. Although, the West will never admit it, India suffers more from terrorism each year than any other country in the world and fights it on a lower budget. So, the winner of the Indian MMRCA tender is righty being coronated as the very best because the evaluation was so good.

To a layman like me, it is not clear if Russia’s historical dominance of dogfighting contributed to the emergence of Beyond Visual Range (BVR) or if it was inevitable. Most would agree that the West never made a better dogfighter than the Russians. Be that as it may, in today’s aerial war BVR means that “fire and forget” weapons are deployed at the enemy aircraft minutes before the aircraft is visible on the horizon. Some of these weapons travel at supersonic speeds, have sophisticated tracking of targets well beyond the heat seeking missiles of the past. This is one reason why India’s Brahmos missile is important, when deployed from combat aircraft. I can only imagine that an experienced pilot has a few seconds warning as the BVR missile hones in, and so maybe the ability to dogfight allows the pilot to evade the missile, although clearly it is situational.

Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) is a costly but critical component on newer fighter jets that allows scanning very large ranges of frequency and distributing your emission over wider ranges in very short bursts which are harder to detect. Although electronics and avionics can be retrofitted to a fighter aircraft, it is a costly exercise and for a country like India, if they don’t receive it as part of the original order, they will probably never receive it as there is little incentive for any defence company to sell that technology after the fact. Yet AESA and other such technologies are highly classified and meanwhile, the IAF needs to ensure that they get some technology transfer, which is one more reason why the MMRCA deal is taking so long to finalise.

So, in my opinion although the public may be disenchanted with the pace of the MMRCA negotiation, I believe that India has chosen the most technologically advanced and capable fighter in the Rafale, a worthy successor to the Mirage-2000 India is already used to and made by the same company, and it is better that India drags it’s heels and insists on a good deal with the French than in rushing the negotiation to a conclusion and getting second best. In the meantime shoring up numbers of Mig-29 and Su-30 is the way to keep strength in the air force and will make the Russians happy, after all keep in mind that at the end of the MMRCA tender India will then have to look forward to the best of the future, namely the PAK-FA for which only the Russians are willing to collaborate with India on stealth technology.

Rafale a worthy choice by the IAF | Niti Central


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## halloweene

Some nice news/images to come in Feb. Plz check


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## halloweene

interesting things to come soon : SITAC (tactical stituation) of Rafale with full legend, and guess what? another sensor for spectra....

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## Last Samuri

Future of Indian air power is the rafale and mki combo. Scrap the fgfa.


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## kurup

Last Samuri said:


> Future of Indian air power is the rafale and mki combo. Scrap the fgfa.



So you want IAF to fly 4.5G aircrafts against enemy's 5G aircrafts .


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## Last Samuri

We can't match plaaf who wil be second only to usa after 2020.for gods sake their GDP is five times India s and they have ten x the indengious fighter manufacturing ability


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## kurup

Last Samuri said:


> We can't match plaaf who wil be second only to usa after 2020.for gods sake their GDP is five times India s and they have ten x the indengious fighter manufacturing ability



So we should abandon FGFA according to you .


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## Superboy

Last Samuri said:


> We can't match plaaf who wil be second only to usa after 2020.for gods sake their GDP is five times India s and they have ten x the indengious fighter manufacturing ability


 

As a matter of fact, J-20 has been fitted with EOTS and F-35 style air intakes. Other than F-35, the US won't have a plane that can technologically match J-20. When J-20 is operational by 2017, the American air force would be second tier compared to the Chinese air force.

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## Bratva

Superboy said:


> As a matter of fact, J-20 has been fitted with EOTS and F-35 style air intakes. Other than F-35, the US won't have a plane that can technologically match J-20. When J-20 is operational by 2017, the American air force would be second tier compared to the Chinese air force.



That's a load of bull crap in yours post. You expect us to believe America who is building stealth tech from late 70's is inferior to Chinese stealth tech who start building it in late 2000's and only in this tech field for what last 10 years? and that to J-20 working on a borrow engine?


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## sancho

halloweene said:


> interesting things to come soon : SITAC (tactical stituation) of Rafale with full legend, and guess what? another sensor for spectra....



Another means one that is not available now, or just an addition in numbers? DDM NG needs at least one more sensor for sure.


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## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> Rafale a worthy choice by the IAF
> 
> _Sitaramarao Yechuri 20 Jan 2014_
> 
> Like the most people of Indian origin, I have been an avid reader of news on the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) tender. It is safe to say that in the last five years many of India’s defence projects have come if not of age, at least into adolescence. The Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) is now flying as a genuine albeit underpowered and slow combat aircraft. The indigenous Kaveri jet engine operates on target except at high altitude, the crystal turbine blades not yet a proven quantity. ISRO (Indian Space Research Organisation) just delivered big on the cryogenic engine. An indigenous aircraft carrier and indigenous submarine are the next big projects promising to reach fruition. Yet the MMRCA tender has literally dragged on for so long that it could become a security concern.
> 
> In the table below are some of the aircraft relevant to India’s Air Force wherein the specifications are from Wikipedia and the photo links point to Airliners.net. The first four entries are already in use in the Indian Air Force. The Mirage-2000 is at the top of the list because the MMRCA tender began as a consequence of the Indian Air Force (IAF) being unable to buy a new batch of Mirage-2000s, since the line was being replaced by the Rafale. Some of the existing Mirage-2000s in the IAF were modernised at a unit cost almost as much as the unit cost projected in the MMRCA which in fact was much criticised ignoring the fact that unlike the MMRCA contract, the upgrade of the Mirage-2000s is actually happening as we speak and so is something the IAF can depend on. So the Mirage-2000 is what is being replaced in the MMRCA tender for about a projected 126 – 200 aircraft. The chosen successor is the Rafale and most are hopeful that a deal will be signed in 2014.
> 
> View attachment 13830
> 
> 
> 
> In the table above, the thrust numbers are without and with afterburner turned on. The afterburner adds power but it produces a visible infrared signature which is easy to detect in the sky. Supercruise refers to the ability to maintain supersonic flight without the afterburner, a useful characteristic in a fighter jet. Supercruise is not stealth but at least it is not as visible as an afterburner. The weight numbers are dry weight and take-off weight, so the difference determines how much you can load the aircraft with weapons pods and extra fuel. The speed number is the speed at high altitude.
> 
> The space the fighter is slated to occupy is “Medium” which means, as compared to the Su-30 MKI which as can be seen has 246 kN of thrust and can lift 45k of weapons/fuel and travel at Mach 2.35. In the IAF only, the now retired MiG-25 Foxbat was capable of higher speeds. The IAF was literally the last air force in the world to retire the MiG-25. In USA, it was the SR-71 Blackbird which travelled at that speed and it did so at extreme altitude and was a spy plane, not a combat aircraft. Even the MiG-25 was not a dogfighter. Both the MiG-25 and the SR-71 travelled high above enemy territory at Mach 2+ taking photographs with a resolution of a few metres, and whereas the SR-71 evaded it’s stalkers by extreme altitude, the MiG-25 performed evasion by brief bursts of speed up to Mach 3.
> 
> And dogfighting was one of the capabilities which the IAF tested while evaluating the MMRCA contenders. Naturally, the Russian entries all performed spectacularly in dogfighting, the MiG-35 even having thrust vectoring which means the output nozzles of the jets can be swiveled in 3D almost at will. But dogfighting was only one of the categories evaluated, BVR i.e. beyond visual range being the new buzzword of fighter jets in the last ten years. I cannot even begin to imagine the relative importance of dogfighting versus BVR but I am sure the IAF evaluators did the most thorough job.
> 
> You see the IAF tender was closely watched worldwide for a more important reason than the money involved. After all, if you consider the per unit cost which India wants to pay, there is some profit and loss for the aircraft vendors in that the majority of the aircraft will be built locally under license by HAL which means fewer jobs generated in the European country. The Brazilian order for only 36 aircrafts was $4.5 billion, no paltry sum, so why was the Indian tender so important. It is because Brazil has no enemies whereas India has two enemies in collusion and in close proximity. So India is in the thick of it. Although, the West will never admit it, India suffers more from terrorism each year than any other country in the world and fights it on a lower budget. So, the winner of the Indian MMRCA tender is righty being coronated as the very best because the evaluation was so good.
> 
> To a layman like me, it is not clear if Russia’s historical dominance of dogfighting contributed to the emergence of Beyond Visual Range (BVR) or if it was inevitable. Most would agree that the West never made a better dogfighter than the Russians. Be that as it may, in today’s aerial war BVR means that “fire and forget” weapons are deployed at the enemy aircraft minutes before the aircraft is visible on the horizon. Some of these weapons travel at supersonic speeds, have sophisticated tracking of targets well beyond the heat seeking missiles of the past. This is one reason why India’s Brahmos missile is important, when deployed from combat aircraft. I can only imagine that an experienced pilot has a few seconds warning as the BVR missile hones in, and so maybe the ability to dogfight allows the pilot to evade the missile, although clearly it is situational.
> 
> Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) is a costly but critical component on newer fighter jets that allows scanning very large ranges of frequency and distributing your emission over wider ranges in very short bursts which are harder to detect. Although electronics and avionics can be retrofitted to a fighter aircraft, it is a costly exercise and for a country like India, if they don’t receive it as part of the original order, they will probably never receive it as there is little incentive for any defence company to sell that technology after the fact. Yet AESA and other such technologies are highly classified and meanwhile, the IAF needs to ensure that they get some technology transfer, which is one more reason why the MMRCA deal is taking so long to finalise.
> 
> So, in my opinion although the public may be disenchanted with the pace of the MMRCA negotiation, I believe that India has chosen the most technologically advanced and capable fighter in the Rafale, a worthy successor to the Mirage-2000 India is already used to and made by the same company, and it is better that India drags it’s heels and insists on a good deal with the French than in rushing the negotiation to a conclusion and getting second best. In the meantime shoring up numbers of Mig-29 and Su-30 is the way to keep strength in the air force and will make the Russians happy, after all keep in mind that at the end of the MMRCA tender India will then have to look forward to the best of the future, namely the PAK-FA for which only the Russians are willing to collaborate with India on stealth technology.
> 
> Rafale a worthy choice by the IAF | Niti Central


Some valid(ish) points and a pretty good conclusion but some random, RANDOM points also. Why is he obsessed with fighter speed? This is almost irrelevant.



Last Samuri said:


> We can't match plaaf who wil be second only to usa after 2020.for gods sake their GDP is five times India s and they have ten x the indengious fighter manufacturing ability


Nonsense. India needs a next generation fighter (the FGFA) for the long term. The MKI-Rafale combo may be dominant in the region for about a decade or so but beyond that not so much and this is where the FGFA comes in. One of India's problems has always been a lack of funding to pay for its long-term visions/plans but now the resources are there you can see coherent long-term strategies emerging. instead of the peice-meal buy new use product to the last second of its useful life then beyond it way India has conducted defence in the past the coming decades will show India's Military to constantly be on the cutting edge of technology.

Wrt your point about China, right now the gap is large but look at any long-term economic forecast, the gap WILL narrow and India will get very close to China, if not surpass it (we will see). So India has EVERY RIGHT to plan big.


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## sancho

Old pic, but still interesting:

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## Abingdonboy



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## Last Samuri

THIS VEDIO is incredible

Im convinced that outside F22 raptor nothing can beat rafale

awesome choice by india if they pull mmrca off.


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## halloweene

Bizarre... Strange markings on Tupolev.


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## Abingdonboy

halloweene said:


> Bizarre... Strange markings on Tupolev.


What's strange about them? These are the standard markings of the Indian Navy:


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## halloweene

My bad, i'm not expert on indian markings

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## sancho

sancho said:


>





> *Dassault Aviation: THE RAFALE FURTHER IMPROVES ITS VERSATILITY*
> 
> The RAFALE has successfully completed its first test flights in a new heavily-armed configuration, comprising six air-to-ground precision AASM Hammer missiles, four medium and long range air-to-air missiles from the MICA family, two very long range METEOR missiles, as well as three 2,000 liter fuel tanks.
> 
> This preliminary work, self-funded by Dassault Aviation are conducted in collaboration with the Direction Generale de l'Armement (the French Defense Procurement Agency) and will eventually lead to a complete clearance of the flight envelope.
> 
> By increasing the capabilities of its fourteen hard points, including eight under the wings, the RAFALE is the only fighter aircraft in the world capable of carrying 1.5 times its own weight. Its "omnirole" capability responds to the needs of countries requiring, at a controlled cost, an operational and versatile tool capable of fulfilling all missions more effectively, whilst mobilizing fewer resources. Two RAFALE aircraft represent the same potential as six MIRAGE 2000 class aircraft...



Dassault Aviation: THE RAFALE FURTHER IMPROVES ITS VERSATILITY - Financial and Business News - MENAFN


Which confirms that it's mainly aimed on the UAE offer and not on the requirements of French forces to open the external wingstation. I would have prefered further developments of the CFTs though, would give Rafale much more advantages.


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## rockstarIN

sancho said:


> Dassault Aviation: THE RAFALE FURTHER IMPROVES ITS VERSATILITY - Financial and Business News - MENAFN
> 
> 
> Which confirms that it's mainly aimed on the UAE offer and not on the requirements of French forces to open the external wingstation. I would have prefered further developments of the CFTs though, would give Rafale much more advantages.




Just wow..those configuation along with one full a2a MKI along with this can finish a usual 12 jet mission at enemy air force..!






+

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## sancho

sancho said:


> Dassault Aviation: THE RAFALE FURTHER IMPROVES ITS VERSATILITY - Financial and Business News - MENAFN



Dassault photo gallery of the tests:

Galerie Photo - Photothèque Dassault Aviation


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## halloweene

sancho said:


> Dassault Aviation: THE RAFALE FURTHER IMPROVES ITS VERSATILITY - Financial and Business News - MENAFN
> 
> 
> Which confirms that it's mainly aimed on the UAE offer and not on the requirements of French forces to open the external wingstation. I would have prefered further developments of the CFTs though, would give Rafale much more advantages.


Or aimed on India???

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## sancho

halloweene said:


> Or aimed on India???



Hehe, just replied on IDF to the same question of Pic. It is aimed on the UAE, which is evidend by the fact that Dassault came up with this only after the UAE requested it. Dassault never even had presented it on any Aero India and it it wasn't part of the MMRCA requirements, to carry a specific ammount of AAMs, otherwise Dassault had made the test earlier too.


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## Agent_47



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## Abingdonboy




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## Abingdonboy



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## halloweene

Incoming discussion between french MoD and indian NS Advisor M. Shivshankar Menon thursday 30th.


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## Abingdonboy

halloweene said:


> Incoming discussion between french MoD and indian NS Advisor M. Shivshankar Menon thursday 30th.


The Rafale will just be one of the things they discuss though.


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## halloweene

yes btw minister of Foreign affairs and president will also talk to him, but in the afternoon. he is sensed to represent indian pm.


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## Agent_47

French Rafale carrying a 300 kilotonnes nuclear warhead

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## halloweene

Picture of ASMP/A lauch






i meant movie, sorry check at 4 mins.

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## PARIKRAMA

*India Agreement for Tokyo with the purchase of military aircraft*
Tuesday, January 28, 2014 7:45 p.m.


NEW DELHI, Jan. 28 (Reuters) - Japan is close to an agreement with India to provide emergency amphibious aircraft, according to official Indian sources, while Tokyo aims to strengthen bilateral cooperation on funds tensions with China.

India would be willing to acquire 15 aircraft US-2i products by manufacturer ShinMaywa Industries for a total of at least $ 1.65 billion based on a price of about $ 110 million, according these sources.

"This is a strategic imperative for both parties and it was approved at the highest level by the two governments," said an Indian military source.

With this agreement, Japan would make its first export of military equipment from the embargo on arms sales that was imposed on itself in 1967 and it has eased in 2011. However it is a civilian version would be delivered, including private, according to another Indian military source, the friend-foe identification system.

The two countries had set up last May a joint working group to study the possible acquisition. It will meet in March to consider an assembly of equipment in India.

In the field of combat aircraft, the French aircraft manufacturer Dassault Aviation has entered into exclusive negotiations with New Delhi in January 2012 to provide 126 Rafale, an estimated $ 15 billion (€ 11 billion) giant command still to be finalized. (Sanjeev Miglani, Marc Joanny for the French service, edited by Dominique Rodriguez)


© Thomson Reuters 2014 All rights reserved.



*Did i read Reuters estimation of half what so called indian media reported???*


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## PARIKRAMA

HAL team’s visit to Dassault facilities in France on hold


New Delhi: The visit by a HAL team to Dassault facilities in France has been put on hold amid efforts by the government to verify the linkages between AgustaWestland's parent firm Finmecannica and other European defence companies. The defence ministry earlier this month scrapped a deal with AgustaWestland for procuring 12 VVIP choppers after charging it with breaching contractual obligations. 

A high-level team of HAL was scheduled to visit France to visit the facilities of the Rafale fighter jet as part of the ongoing negotiations between the two sides for jointly producing the aircraft but it was cancelled at the last moment, said defence ministry sources in New Delhi. 

The HAL team was also scheduled to meet other aerospace companies such as Eurocopter and Turbomeca for exploring potential to work on ongoing and future projects, they said. The visit has been put on hold at a time when after cancelling the VVIP chopper deal, 

India is verifying linkages between European firms and the Finmecannica group. 


The French firm Dassault Aviation was selected by India to supply 126 Rafale combat aircraft to the Indian Air Force as part of its Medium-Multirole Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) deal expected to be worth over Rs 60,000 crore. India and France are holding negotiations on commercial aspects of the deal and have had differences on several points, including the work share for Reliance Industries Limited in the project. HAL has to produce 108 of the 126 Rafale aircraft in India as the lead integrator in the project while 18 aircraft would be supplied directly by the company from its facilities in France.


After scrapping AgustaWestland's contract to supply choppers, the defence ministry has also barred Finmecannica and its five other group companies from taking part in its military exhibition Defexpo-2014 in New Delhi. Proposals to procure equipment from its group companies have also been put on hold including one to buy heavy-weight torpedos from WASS to equip the under construction Scorpene submarines in Mumbai. The defence ministry has also initiated a process to blacklist the Anglo-Italian firm and is holding consultations with law ministry and CBI in this regard before taking a final decision. PTI

HAL team’s visit to Dassault facilities in France on hold | Firstpost


I don know why the hell Sir Anthony Does nt want to expedite the ordering and gng round and round over this deal... How is Dassault linked with this ??? 

If anyone can shed some light , it will be helpful


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## halloweene

Asked... Prolly BS, awaiting for an answer.


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## sancho

halloweene said:


> Asked... Prolly BS, awaiting for an answer.



Most likely, the article just link the 2 issues with eachother, but doesn't give any real reasons, in fact it doesn't even say who cancelled the trip, just that (unnamed sources ) in the MoD had stated it. So wait and see, a lot of BS in the media these days.

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## sancho

Google translated:



> *Visit Le Drian Merignac: Major advances for the Rafale, but not that ...*
> 
> Visit on January 10 important sites of the French defense industry, the defense minister Jean Yves Le Drian is especially made for Dassault Aviation in Merignac for a visit to the charge before delivery of the contract development of a new standard Rafale and the signing of a defense pact SMEs. The portal aviation enthusiasts attended the meeting, and we will deliver here all the information we have gained from this rich morning...
> 
> ...The new standard F3R, and future updates
> 
> The new standard F3R includes studies and tests related to the integration of the new European Meteor long-range missile, and the integration of the new laser designation pod being developed by Thales. Will be added to the new Mode 5 / S IFF (identification friend or foe), improvements in Radar RBE2 and also adding or improving features Spectra electronic warfare system.
> Upstream of study programs (EAP) and Incas Tragedac will not be included in this standard, but in a future, making more important day intervene for the big improvement Rafale mid-life, around 2020. These preliminary studies programs also confirm that the burst program is still actively being developed. We return to these PEA in a dedicated section.
> The development of standard F3R should come to an end in five years, for an expected mid 2018 qualification. The update is mainly about software, all airplanes in a park in the Air Force and the Navy...
> 
> By cons, we will not know the exact content of the updated electronic warfare system, the Rafale, the SPECTRA. I ventured to ask whether the program would DEDIRA party standard F3R, I did not get a direct answer. At best I will learn it flies and works well, my partner of the day it will just more of a mischievous smile says it all ... while staying in the most total blur. DEDIRA is revealed in Air & Cosmos, to reduce the radar signature of the aircraft program. If the demonstrator program flies, then it can not be shipped on board the B301, which had also made a journey on the road to carry out some tests to test the DGA Bruz center. Coincidence? Other indiscretions military had helped establish almost with certainty the existence of a so-called "active cancellation" feature that allows the Rafale to evade the opponent detection based on the capabilities of Spectra. If DEDIRA program actually flying on Rafale and the B301 development with no change in visual order, active anulation Rafale is something that can then be more or less confirmed as at least being studied .
> 
> Rafale production
> 
> During his speech, the minister recalled that the current military planning law covering the current period up to 2019 will be the acquisition by France only 26 Rafale. Gie Rafale can not produce less than 11 Rafale per year,* the rest of the production is a big thirty Rafale will be sold for export*. *Le Drian said that 2014 is a year where it will be totally unrealistic to expect a signature of a first contract*. First client referred, India. Then come the "Gulf" countries, to spare their susceptibility are not mentioned in public by the authorities. Yet they are clearly identified, with two large prospects, Qatar and the United Arab Emirates...



le portail des passionnés de l'aviation: Visite de Le Drian à Mérignac : Des avancées majeures pour le Rafale, mais pas que...


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## Last Samuri

Is this deal on or off. WE ARE GETTING rather mixed signals from all sources in media


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## egodoc222

Last Samuri said:


> Is this deal on or off. WE ARE GETTING rather mixed signals from all sources in media


wat do you expect... this is a deal that can change military balance of the region...
so everybody is dng their bit...


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## jiki

God is gr8888 my *** this is what we r all wting for, mr chutiya antony is the most disgusted DM ever
Major Indian procurements delayed until after general election, say officials - IHS Jane's 360
Halloweene 
can u plz comfirm it


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## Sergi

jiki said:


> God is gr8888 my *** this is what we r all wting for, mr chutiya antony is the most disgusted DM ever
> Major Indian procurements delayed until after general election, say officials - IHS Jane's 360
> Halloweene
> can u plz comfirm it


Techincally GOI cant take major financial decisions after the code of conduct is active. So the decisions that will not be taken before Feb will most likely to be going for next GOI. 
If Price escalation of 100% is true then most probably next govt will take decision on that.


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## halloweene

when is code of condut active exactly?
And no 100% cost is false (checked in France aswell as shiv aroor did in india)

@jiki last time i talked with a Dassault executive (about ten days ago) they still hoped a sigature before elections


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## Sergi

halloweene said:


> when is code of condut active exactly?
> And no 100% cost is false (checked in France aswell as shiv aroor did in india)
> 
> @jiki last time i talked with a Dassault executive (about ten days ago) they still hoped a sigature before elections


Code of conduct will be active in late Feb or early March. 
Even I believe the 100% increase is a BS but cant say it for sure. 
Dassault is playing unnecessary hard ball. Its dangerous for deal. With Reliance in equation the scenario after the elections will be a whole new game.

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## PARIKRAMA

There are some views in political circle that if a change in guard happens in New Delhi the deal may nt go thru citing too many stringent conditions and cost (not what media has reported). The so called some back up plan envisions more indigenous (read LCA variants) and direct off the shelf purchase to bolster up squadron reduction strength seen with retirement of Mig 21 and Mig 27 and stalling of up-gradation of Jaguars... 

I believe Dassault/French Government and MOD/HAL should seal up the deal asap.. Both sides needs the deal.. The more the delay is, there can be shocker for all in store with deal cancellation to many other surprises..

BTW @halloweene , m hearing that both Russia and UK are offering some new deal talks.. Russia it seems had offered a packaged deal of Super Sukhois, Su35 and later FGFA with TOT which can be fitted to the MKIs and Su35 later. Its still lying in cold storage as no where in media it has been reported. The surprise os SU35 at very low cost of offering to offset high cost of FGFA had MOD surprised..... UK is still pursuing back channel talks and offered MOD to look at what best it seeks from UK Defense industry which can be coupled together as being second lowest bidder in MMRCA. Both these is directly from horse's mouth who is working closely with Mr Anthony. So far both these ideas are just kept warm for possible back up strategies which now IAF chief had come to know a month back and had begun to push MOD for either Dassault or backup action. Mr Anthony is nt pursuing any of backup deals atm as both UPA chairperson and VP are clear that L1 bid won fairly by Dassault shud be given the fair chance to complete the deal. But then you nvr know, elections can make them take 180 degree turn as nothin is signed as of now.


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## sancho

jiki said:


> God is gr8888 my *** this is what we r all wting for, mr chutiya antony is the most disgusted DM ever
> Major Indian procurements delayed until after general election, say officials - IHS Jane's 360
> Halloweene
> can u plz comfirm it



That has nothing to do with MoD, but with the election and I said it since the issues with Reliance came up, that Dassault is playing a dangerous game by delaying the decisions towards the elections.


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## sancho

PARIKRAMA said:


> There are some views in political circle that if a change in guard happens in New Delhi the deal may nt go thru citing too many stringent conditions and cost (not what media has reported). The so called some back up plan envisions more indigenous (read LCA variants) and direct off the shelf purchase to bolster up squadron reduction strength seen with retirement of Mig 21 and Mig 27 and stalling of up-gradation of Jaguars...



I believe Dassault/French Government and MOD/HAL should seal up the deal asap.. Both sides needs the deal.. The more the delay is, there can be shocker for all in store with deal cancellation to many other surprises..

For the current government and election ahead it's difficult to make such a big procurement of course, the BJP on the other hand might take a new look on the election and I'm sure there will be a reasonable ammount of pressure from the EF consortium as well as the Russians on them too.
The AAP even as a minor partner in a coalition would surely push for low cost fighters.
So the whole deal can be turned upside down again if there is no decision now. 



PARIKRAMA said:


> Russia and UK are offering some new deal talks.. Russia it seems had offered a packaged deal of Super Sukhois, Su35 and later FGFA with TOT which can be fitted to the MKIs and Su35 later. Its still lying in cold storage as no where in media it has been reported. The surprise os SU35 at very low cost of offering to offset high cost of FGFA had MOD surprised...



There is nothing a Su 35 can offer IAF, that they wouldn't get through MKI upgrades anyway, so that is not interesting and the low cost is a myth too. 
The brits however are desperate and as I said, they will do anything to pressure the BJP if they win.


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## PARIKRAMA

thats exactly my concern too.. u see some where we are clear is that we wont put all the eggs in the same basket.. But then if not france then UK ...thats the small feeling which is beginning to crop up... BTW what David C led UK had in favor is that internally some UK people with influential abilities had been close to BJP folks like Narendra Modi and other leaders.. another thot process states that getting Modi close to UK leaders may help finally USA also to relent and issue him Visa which would be potrayed as big moral victory for BJP,,, Thus BJP and UK have many things which works for them...

Now the question is at present where the deal is stuck or whats really the point of hiccup.. if @halloweene can check and let us know it would be really great. BTW if say Dassault does nt get this deal, whats their plan of action? any views on that


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## sancho

PARIKRAMA said:


> thats exactly my concern too.. u see some where we are clear is that we wont put all the eggs in the same basket.. But then if not france then UK ...thats the small feeling which is beginning to crop up... BTW what David C led UK had in favor is that internally some UK people with influential abilities had been close to BJP folks like Narendra Modi and other leaders.. another thot process states that getting Modi close to UK leaders may help finally USA also to relent and issue him Visa which would be potrayed as big moral victory for BJP,,, Thus BJP and UK have many things which works for them...



The Indo - US relations might be in trouble with Modi, so a come back of their fighters is unlikely, but the EF consortium includes big companies and desperate governments, so there will be a push from their side for sure (the currently increasing BS in the media could be one sign for it), although I don't know much about the preference of BJP to the European countries. 



PARIKRAMA said:


> Now the question is at present where the deal is stuck or whats really the point of hiccup.. if @halloweene can check and let us know it would be really great. BTW if say Dassault does nt get this deal, whats their plan of action? any views on that



From the French side, the workshare that Reliance gets is too small and they want more diverted from HAL.
From the Indian side, Dassault still needs to find Indian industry partners to fulfill the offset and ToT requirements and after that clearence from finance ministry I guess. Besides the fact that growth has reduced in the recent years, while the Rupee has gone down. 
If they don't get this deal, they will keep focusing on the Arab countries, which basically is the last hope for Rafale sales. The longer they take, they lower the chances for exports, since the future market will be split by 5th gen fighters and the cost-effective 4.5th gen Gripen E/F. Rafale can't compete with stealth fighters in operational terms, just as it can't compete the Gripen for cost reasons. So either India and the Gulf, or French forces only as major markets, Malaysia might still be a potential minor customer, but they will take a close look at Indias decision for sure.


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## halloweene

> (the currently increasing BS in the media could be one sign for it)



It is, but i cant source.


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## Sergi

@sancho : 
Few points
- if a BJP govt came then there will definatly be a question on deal if Dassault keep its stand. Presence of Relience and Dassaults persuation on that will make things difficult. 
- what new govt will see is the worth of deal and the requriements of our PSUs and not the forces.
- if the TOT offered is expensive or insufficient the will be a Plan B. 
- Modi being result oriented person ( my opinion ) will make a quick fix and go for longer plan. 
- Plan B might involve 
1. buying F-18SH with full ToT if Uncle Sam can provide. - its has two point score fixing his image in US lobby , making US arm lobby pro indian and fully Navalised bird. 
2. Looking at Modi's relation with UK if UK offere any better low cost solution with TOT then they will be in game. But is difficult unless UK agree to devlaue its product to keep it alive. 
3. Buying more MKIs offself ie Super MKIs and speed up LCA M-2 & AMCA. Worst case senario


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## SrNair

Scraping the deal with french will cause catastrophic diplomatic fallout.Remember France is the only european country that support us in our difficult times.

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## sancho

Sergi said:


> @sancho :
> Few points
> - if a BJP govt came then there will definatly be a question on deal if Dassault keep its stand. Presence of Relience and Dassaults persuation on that will make things difficult.



Is it? Can you, or any other member tell me if there are any links between BJP/Modi and Reliance/Ambani? Dassault is obviously the decision maker here, but I think that behind the scenes the whole HAL issue is mainly guided from India itself and by Reliance. If that is the case, they surely will take the chance of a government change to put more pressure on the new government directly too. 



Sergi said:


> - what new govt will see is the worth of deal and the requriements of our PSUs and not the forces.



I would be reliefed if that is the case, but if they simply pass this deal, they hardly can make it their own and the Congress / Antony will remain with most of the credit, not to mention that the cost of the deal will create an issue in the public and the media anyway (it did even before the final selection), so whoever is fixing the deal, will have to justify it too. "We" might see the benefits of the industry, or the IAF and I am very sure the current government did as well, since they routed this competition and the policy changes in that direction, but a new government can have different views and change all this in a blink of an eye. So I don't give anything about promises or statments of BJP, or AAP at this point, because after the election things are always different. 



Sergi said:


> - Plan B might involve
> 1. buying F-18SH with full ToT if Uncle Sam can provide



Not possible, that's part of the reasons they were rejected, or why several other deals didn't worked out so far. And if the Congress which had good relations to the US officials, couldn't change that, Modi and BJP won't have a chance at all.




Sergi said:


> 2. Looking at Modi's relation with UK if UK offere any better low cost solution with TOT then they will be in game. But is difficult unless UK agree to devlaue its product to keep it alive.



They can't make the EF cheaper that's for sure, they only can provide other industrial advantages and most importantly more political power in the negotiations, unlike the Germans which lead the MMRCA proposal (a major mistake for the EF anyway). So again, politics can then play a bigger role in the decision, contrary to what we have seen so far, thanks to IAF and Antony.



Sergi said:


> 3. Buying more MKIs offself ie Super MKIs and speed up LCA M-2 & AMCA. Worst case senario



That's only a solution to keep the numbers on paper, not a good one on operational terms and doesn't give Indian industry anything.

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## Sergi

sancho said:


> Is it? Can you, or any other member tell me if there are any links between BJP/Modi and Reliance/Ambani? Dassault is obviously the decision maker here, but I think that behind the scenes the whole HAL issue is mainly guided from India itself and by Reliance. If that is the case, they surely will take the chance of a government change to put more pressure on the new government directly too.


Nobody can connect the dots but elder Ambani ie Mukesh whos Relience Industries is a pro congress industrialist. So HAL's objections will be listened more eagerly if the GOI is changed. And even HAL knows it


> I would be reliefed if that is the case, but if they simply pass this deal, they hardly can make it their own and the Congress / Antony will remain with most of the credit, not to mention that the cost of the deal will create an issue in the public and the media anyway (it did even before the final selection), so whoever is fixing the deal, will have to justify it too. "We" might see the benefits of the industry, or the IAF and I am very sure the current government did as well, since they routed this competition and the policy changes in that direction, but a new government can have different views and change all this in a blink of an eye. So I don't give anything about promises or statments of BJP, or AAP at this point, because after the election things are always different.


If you ask me it is very unlikely to close the deal in 1 month. There are many pending issues which will take minimus month to settle and another month to document that. So they are done. Negotiations and documentaions can be done in code of counduct but the decision will have to wait for next DM.



> Not possible, that's part of the reasons they were rejected, or why several other deals didn't worked out so far. And if the Congress which had good relations to the US officials, couldn't change that, Modi and BJP won't have a chance at all.


I am sorry i dont agree with you. Congress leadership is considered as moderate leaders. So US like them as they wont swing the balance. In case of Modi who is already not in good terms with US has a good chance to swing everything away from US. So they need to be extra good to keep relations or ready to say good bye to india.
More over F-18 prodction line is closing anyways. So getting 20 billion for 4.5+ gen aircraft while you are having 5th gen ac AND the said 4.5+ gen ac is more likely to be used to check China .... Doesnt sound bad even from US point of view. They can remove radar and avionic which India will replace anyway. So question is only engine.



> They can't make the EF cheaper that's for sure, they only can provide other industrial advantages and most importantly more political power in the negotiations, unlike the Germans which lead the MMRCA proposal (a major mistake for the EF anyway). So again, politics can then play a bigger role in the decision, contrary to what we have seen so far, thanks to IAF and Antony.


You might be suprised on the cost  i dont think india can use that political power for anything. I preffere French good-wil over UK any day.



> That's only a solution to keep the numbers on paper, not a good one on operational terms and doesn't give Indian industry anything.


What our industrial need right now ???
- relible engine and a know how
- Good AESA and its know how
- some design philosophy and experience
Exactly thats why Dassault was a goid choice. Say for some reasons the deal is scarpped what are our options ???
Either Russia or US.
US might give us GE engine with full TOT and we can work with Israel on radar.


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## sancho

Sergi said:


> Nobody can connect the dots but elder Ambani ie Mukesh whos Relience Industries is a pro congress industrialist. So HAL's objections will be listened more eagerly if the GOI is changed. And even HAL knows it



HAL is actually pretty quiet, it's MoD and IAF that insisted on the RFP requirements and oppose changes and that for good reasons. So if Ambani is pro Congress, that didn't got him much in case of MMRCA, which again would prove that politics had no issue in the competition so far.



Sergi said:


> So they need to be extra good to keep relations or ready to say good bye to india.



You are overestimating the situation, because they would have to act against their own laws on ToT and if that wasn't possible to an Indian counterpart they had set up a reasonable trustworthy relationship, they definitely won't go over board with the BJP. In fact, it is likely that they will have to start up all over again, which actually is sad, the long term prospect of Indo-US relations with H. Clinton likely to become the next President looked pretty good and it needs to be seen how that might work out with BJP and Modi.




Sergi said:


> You might be suprised on the cost



Nope, I am following the EF development even longer that I did with Rafale and the costs were always an issue and IMO it gets only worse now. UK won't support it that much anymore, like they did in the past, they get F35 and already made a deal with France for the NG fighter development. They won't bother too much about Germany, Italy, or Spain and further fundigs for EF anymore. The only point for them is, to sell off some of the EFs they originally ordered, but even those can't be sold too far below the normal price, especially since we mainly will have a licence production. So don't expect wonders from that side anymore. 



Sergi said:


> What our industrial need right now ???


Even basics, like modern production standards, but radar, engine, avionics or weapon techs are of course the keys. Wrt ToT France always is one of the best choices, that's why we have chosen them often for licence productions or JVs, so on that side the Rafale was sure to be one of the best offers and there are not many alternatives left, especially not from a single source. Israel can offer radar, avionics and weapon techs, which we already get, just like we already get most of what the Russians can offer, the French are the best western source.


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## Sergi

sancho said:


> HAL is actually pretty quiet, it's MoD and IAF that insisted on the RFP requirements and oppose changes and that for good reasons. So if Ambani is pro Congress, that didn't got him much in case of MMRCA, which again would prove that politics had no issue in the competition so far.


 HAL is not quiet. They are using correct channels unlike DRDO. 
Politics has no issue so far is correct. But you cant say that after elections. 
Reliance already got the piece of pie. Question is can they hold it. 



> You are overestimating the situation, because they would have to act against their own laws on ToT and if that wasn't possible to an Indian counterpart they had set up a reasonable trustworthy relationship, they definitely won't go over board with the BJP. In fact, it is likely that they will have to start up all over again, which actually is sad, the long term prospect of Indo-US relations with H. Clinton likely to become the next President looked pretty good and it needs to be seen how that might work out with BJP and Modi.


 Pentagon has already made a list of techs that can be transferred to India. For every law there is back door eg a JV.
BJP coming in power is actually bad news for US as their PM is one who doesn't like the US so much. So question is what they can do ??? Keep india at distance ??? Can Modi be pursued ??? Yes they can. But to pursue a businessman you need to give him the offers he can not reject. 
PS: these are my own opinions derived from some good source 





> Nope, I am following the EF development even longer that I did with Rafale and the costs were always an issue and IMO it gets only worse now. UK won't support it that much anymore, like they did in the past, they get F35 and already made a deal with France for the NG fighter development. They won't bother too much about Germany, Italy, or Spain and further fundigs for EF anymore. The only point for them is, to sell off some of the EFs they originally ordered, but even those can't be sold too far below the normal price, especially since we mainly will have a licence production. So don't expect wonders from that side anymore.


 i am saying that because someone told me so. That was the exact reply "you might be surprised" and I don't think the person trolled me. 




> Even basics, like modern production standards, but radar, engine, avionics or weapon techs are of course the keys. Wrt ToT France always is one of the best choices, that's why we have chosen them often for licence productions or JVs, so on that side the Rafale was sure to be one of the best offers and there are not many alternatives left, especially not from a single source. Israel can offer radar, avionics and weapon techs, which we already get, just like we already get most of what the Russians can offer, the French are the best western source.


Not disagreeing on that. Just imagining backup plan is case of scrapping.


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## sancho

Sergi said:


> Reliance already got the piece of pie. Question is can they hold it.



Of course, because the RFP gives Dassault and it's French partners the freedom to chose the Indian counterparts for parts of the production as they want and Reliance was chosen by Dassault, so that can't be changed for sure.




Sergi said:


> Pentagon has already made a list of techs that can be transferred to India.


Yes, but according to their laws and to what they want to share, not what we want to have and that is the key! We wanted ToT of the radar for example, which is not possible with them, they even blocked the sale of the Israeli AESA because of the same reason. So they might change their policies today a bit, but according to their interests, not to ours.



Sergi said:


> Not disagreeing on that. Just imagining backup plan is case of scrapping.



I don't think it will be scrapped, but I don't want to new negotiations with EF partners, or even some of the rejected vendors again and delay the procurement even longer. I want a decision and the induction of the fighters as soon as possible, that's all.

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## Sergi

@sancho
1. Yes Relience got its share though Dassault and will keep it if everything goes as plan. But its in MODs hand to allow or reject the partners. Same thing happened in arty remember ??? And we are talking about after election

2. Yes. 100%. But right now their interest are matching ours and vice versa. I believe if US give us rights to produce F-18s and TOT of its engines. We might agree. Radar and avionics can be arranged from other sources.

3. I too dont think it will be scrapped but .....You never know  and Dassault isnt really showing any need to wrap up early.


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## Water Car Engineer




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## halloweene

Had a brief talk with a top Dassault executive today, will try to sum up fomorrow, late at night here.

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## egodoc222

halloweene said:


> Had a brief talk with a top Dassault executive today, will try to sum up fomorrow, late at night here.


please do


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## Sergi

halloweene said:


> Had a brief talk with a top Dassault executive today, will try to sum up fomorrow, late at night here.


Please add my user name in "mention" when you do it. Thanks in advance.


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## Abingdonboy

Sergi said:


> @sancho
> 
> 
> 3. I too dont think it will be scrapped but .....You never know  and Dassault isnt really showing any need to wrap up early.


Ummm....


*Dassault CEO interview:*

_[...]_
*The military planning law bet that 7 Rafale will be exported in 2016. Is it too late?*

_No. The White Paper on Defence decreased the size of the air force to 225 fighter planes. There are still one hundred Rafale to deliver. Budgetary problems are known and identified. So the Ministry of Defence and Dassault have made a bet to overcome this difficulty with export. If ever this bet was not won, we planned to meet again in 2015._

*So you can wait end of 2015 to sign the first contract?*

_Let us say early 2015._

*Where are you with the negotiations with India?*

_They are progressing well. It is long because it is complex. The negotiations involve the sale of 126 combat aircraft, but also the licensed production of virtually all components of the aircraft. This implies many agreements with local industry, HAL in particular. *The second difficulty is elections in India in the spring. We are mobilized to finish everything before.* If it is after, we will have to wait a new government to be formed, which will be fast, and to revisit the subject. But as the file will be prepared by the administration and the army that will remain in place, this could be finalized before the end of 2014.

*The death of the Indian chief negotiator would have disrupted the negotiations ...*

*Totally false.*

*What does the Eurofighter side, which lost in the final against the Rafale, to destabilize you?*

Whatever he does, it's not an issue for me. Eurofighter won't come back. Why would Indians start from scratch after spending so much energy for years? why as the Rafale was considered better and cheaper with a willingness to transfer important technology for the modernization of the Indian industry?

*The lesson of the failure in Brazil is that the Rafale can interest only a handful of countries ?*

If by "handful of countries' you mean at least five, then yes. The Rafale is made for war. It therefore attract the interest of countries that show a certain maturity in the field. This is the case of India.
[...]

Full interview:
http://www.lesechos.fr/entreprises-s...nce-642220.php_


They've shown an intent to finish before the elections and are fully aware of them.




Also you're waaay off the mark mate- the talk of going for the F-18 is jus tout of the question.

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## SpArK

Abingdonboy said:


> Ummm....
> 
> 
> *Dassault CEO interview:*
> 
> _[...]_
> *The military planning law bet that 7 Rafale will be exported in 2016. Is it too late?*
> 
> _No. The White Paper on Defence decreased the size of the air force to 225 fighter planes. There are still one hundred Rafale to deliver. Budgetary problems are known and identified. So the Ministry of Defence and Dassault have made a bet to overcome this difficulty with export. If ever this bet was not won, we planned to meet again in 2015._
> 
> *So you can wait end of 2015 to sign the first contract?*
> 
> _Let us say early 2015._
> 
> *Where are you with the negotiations with India?*
> 
> _They are progressing well. It is long because it is complex. The negotiations involve the sale of 126 combat aircraft, but also the licensed production of virtually all components of the aircraft. This implies many agreements with local industry, HAL in particular. *The second difficulty is elections in India in the spring. We are mobilized to finish everything before.* If it is after, we will have to wait a new government to be formed, which will be fast, and to revisit the subject. But as the file will be prepared by the administration and the army that will remain in place, this could be finalized before the end of 2014.
> 
> *The death of the Indian chief negotiator would have disrupted the negotiations ...*
> 
> *Totally false.*
> 
> *What does the Eurofighter side, which lost in the final against the Rafale, to destabilize you?*
> 
> Whatever he does, it's not an issue for me. Eurofighter won't come back. Why would Indians start from scratch after spending so much energy for years? why as the Rafale was considered better and cheaper with a willingness to transfer important technology for the modernization of the Indian industry?
> 
> *The lesson of the failure in Brazil is that the Rafale can interest only a handful of countries ?*
> 
> If by "handful of countries' you mean at least five, then yes. The Rafale is made for war. It therefore attract the interest of countries that show a certain maturity in the field. This is the case of India.
> [...]
> 
> Full interview:
> http://www.lesechos.fr/entreprises-s...nce-642220.php_
> 
> 
> They've shown an intent to finish before the elections and are fully aware of them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also you're waaay off the mark mate- the talk of going for the F-18 is jus tout of the question.





_



*The Rafale is made for war. It therefore attract the interest of countries that show a certain maturity in the field. This is the case of India*.

Click to expand...

__

I like this part._

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## Abingdonboy

SpArK said:


> _
> I like this part._


Indeed, more than a bit of a poke at the Brazilians!

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## SrNair

Abingdonboy said:


> Indeed, more than a bit of a poke at the Brazilians!



Rafale is a high caliber fighter.Brazil doesnt need it.Their neighbours is neither hostile nor powerful.


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## Taygibay

Air & Cosmos reports on the AESA use. Not all informations ( such as range ) correlate with other sources but since it's penned by Guillaume Steuer, it should be mostly accurate. Interesting read overall with value for the Indians to extrapolate possible IAF tactics from.
French Air Force enters the AESA Era - Air&Cosmos
Good day all, Tay.

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## halloweene

So, don't expect breaking news, Dassault's politics is to let the client speak.
Just a few hints on prices quoted. They are fantasies. Technical contracts are closed to be wrapped.
India estimated both acquisition costs and owner lifetime cost. Very precisely, including indian updates costs. The price of the plane didnt move since.
What can explain an "escalation" of costs is industrialization cost, which wasnt included in MMRCA negotiations for obvious reasons.
It is costly to build new factories, train people etc. ToT is fully opened and it is India that define what tech they want to be transferred, but also pay for it (training, facilities etc.)
He didn't seem worried by indian elections.
Dassault do not want to communicate on indian press articles, low profile is the rule, they consider that it is client's prerogative.

My two cents : IAF HAL etc wont deny anything while negociating...

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## sancho

Sergi said:


> 1. Yes Relience got its share though Dassault and will keep it if everything goes as plan. But its in MODs hand to allow or reject the partners. Same thing happened in arty remember ??? And we are talking about after



Only based on issues with the manufacturer, like an ongoing investigation, or blacklisting like for the howitzers, they can't reject Dassaults partners without reasons. 




Sergi said:


> 2. Yes. 100%. But right now their interest are matching ours and vice versa. I believe if US give us rights to produce F-18s and TOT of its engines. We might agree. Radar and avionics can be arranged from other sources.



They give us the right to produce the fighter, just not of the important techs and that are the radar and avionics, if you take that away, there is nothing left that could be remotly interesting in the F18, not to mention that it already doesn't fulfill IAF requirements. So that is a dead end for sure and no, we can't get radar and avionics from other sources, since the US don't allow such customizations.



Abingdonboy said:


> Indeed, more than a bit of a poke at the Brazilians!



Or a justification for the loss there.


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## Sergi

Abingdonboy said:


> Ummm....
> 
> *They've shown an intent to finish before the elections* and are fully aware of them.


 I disagree. I have my reasons. 




> Also you're waaay off the mark mate- the talk of going for the F-18 is jus tout of the question.


Thats was an imaginary situation but still can be considered as a possibility.


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## Last Samuri

DOES ANYBODY actually think this will stil happen. ie that INDIA will sign for 125 rafales costing indian $30 billion over the next two decades


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## godofwar

Last Samuri said:


> DOES ANYBODY actually think this will stil happen. ie that INDIA will sign for 125 rafales costing indian $30 billion over the next two decades


Its looking less and less likely as the days go by.
Gripen would have been perfect for us if it weren't so similar to Tejas.


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## trident2010

$30bn for 125 planes not worth. Induct Tejas MK2 and FGFAs


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## Superboy

30 billion for 125 planes, that's 240 million each. Why would Rafale be as expensive as F-22? Makes no sense.


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## Abingdonboy

Superboy said:


> 30 billion for 125 planes, that's 240 million each. Why would Rafale be as expensive as F-22? Makes no sense.


It doesn't does it? Maybe because that figure is 100% BS.


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## Superboy

Abingdonboy said:


> It doesn't does it? Maybe because that figure is 100% BS.


 

As of April last year, it was 15 billion for 126, which amounts to just over 119 million per plane. It is possible the cost has escalated since that time.

India's $15 billion Rafale deal faces delays: sources| Reuters

Rafale has 0 export order since becoming operational in 2001. I really don't get why Dassault is doing this nonsense.


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## Abingdonboy

Superboy said:


> As of April last year, it was 15 billion for 126, which amounts to just over 119 million per plane. It is possible the cost has escalated since that time.
> 
> India's $15 billion Rafale deal faces delays: sources| Reuters
> 
> Rafale has 0 export order since becoming operational in 2001. I really don't get why Dassault is doing this nonsense.


And you think it has DOUBLED in the span of 10 months? The price was locked in in 2011 when the Rafale was declared L1.


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## Last Samuri

The indian want an AESA equipped Rafale

This will cost 126 x $125m each minimum = $16 billion

The indians want to license build 108 planes to establish the workshops the plants the hitech machinary man power expertise from france to india add $2 billion.

The indians want TOT this will cost more money add $2 billion.

This plane will need the weapons meterore mica scalp cruise missles etc. add $6 billion

We are now touching $26 billion.

Add rupee devaluation inflation between 2014-2025 time taken to aeesenble 126 rafales and add another $4 billion.


GRAND TOTAL $30 BILLION.

iF YOU think my numbers are wrong then i suggest you digest the new that Brazil have just paid $4.5 billion for 36 saab gripens which ibleive includes weapons.

ie over $120 million per plane

YOU CAN ADD 30% to the cost of any plane just for weapons

in frances case with their equipment 40% for missles and bombs etc.

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## kbd-raaf

Last Samuri said:


> Add rupee devaluation inflation between 2014-2025 time taken to aeesenble 126 rafales and add another $4 billion.



Wah, somehow rupee devaluation adds to the dollar cost of the deal and not the rupee cost.

Much intelligence, such clarity. Wow.

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## Last Samuri

Stop trying to be clever KBD with comments like



> Wah, somehow rupee devaluation adds to the dollar cost of the deal and not the rupee cost.


 
If my figures are wrong then explain clearly how they are wrong AND GIVE me your figures with science behind it.

Otherwise ZIP IT


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## kbd-raaf

Last Samuri said:


> Stop trying to be clever KBD with comments like
> 
> 
> 
> If my figures are wrong then explain clearly how they are wrong AND GIVE me your figures with science behind it.
> 
> Otherwise ZIP IT



Are you serious?!

Rupee devaluation will only affect how many rupees the GoI will have to pay!

Not the amount of dollars!

For a $50 item, when $1=60, the GoI will may pay 3000Rs, when $1=70Rs, the GoI will pay 3500 Rs. The amount in dollars does not change idiot.

Such brilliance, new Einstein. wow.


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## kingdurgaking

Last Samuri said:


> Stop trying to be clever KBD with comments like
> 
> 
> 
> If my figures are wrong then explain clearly how they are wrong AND GIVE me your figures with science behind it.
> 
> Otherwise ZIP IT



The correction is $ is a constant value ... rupee appreciate or depreciates doesn't matter. for (e.g.) assumpe Rs 50 = $1 in 2010. Rupee depreciation doesn't increase the $1 but number of rupees you spend more to buy $1. (i.e.) Rs 60 = $1. which means if Rafale cost $100 in 2010... without adding inflation and other pans it will still remains $100 in 2013.... but Rs5000 in 2010 has increased to Rs6000 ..

But logically if you see no price remains same.. Rafale cannot sustain $100 if it is bound by contract that they cant increase unless the deal is signed. If no such clause exist Indian government will take the default inflation for $ in consideration and will allow Rafale price to grow...


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## sancho

*Indian (possible) industrial participation:*










> *Reliance, Dassault planning facility to produce wings for Rafale*
> 
> France’s Dassault Aviation and Reliance Industries are planning to set up a facility to produce wings of Rafale combat aircraft selected by IAF for meeting its requirement of 126 fighter planes...



Reliance, Dassault planning facility to produce wings for Rafale | Business Line




> *Ghaziabad Firm Samtel Display Systems Set to Fly with Rafale*
> 
> ...Samtel will be supplying its cockpit displays to Dassault, makers of the French Rafale," informed Kaura. The exe director explained, "Dassault has stakes in Thales which is also a French company. Samtel-Thales Joint Venture will be supplying the cockpit displays to Dassault."...



Ghaziabad Firm Samtel Display Systems Set to Fly with Rafale - Economic Times




> *Samtel to supply IRST for IAF Rafales*
> 
> Samtel Display Systems will supply the highly sophisticated IRST (Infra Red Search and Track) system for Rafale, the Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) selected by the Indian Air Force.
> 
> The company signed an agreement with the French Thales recently for this technology, and its IRST system would be available for other IAF aircraft also...



..:: India Strategic ::. DefExpo 2012: Samtel to supply IRST for IAF Rafales




> *BEL Gearing Up For MMRCA Projects*
> 
> Q : With regard to the MMRCA deal, what role can BEL expect to play and how are you gearing up for this. Will your partnership with Thales cover the AESA radar for the MMRCA?
> 
> Anil Kumar :
> 
> For the MMRCA contract, we have been interacting with Dassault Aviation and their Tier 1 suppliers like ECE, Inter Technique & Thales. BEL is interested in Airborne Radar, EW Systems and Avionics. We know that these are very specific areas for which BEL is perhaps the best qualified company in India. We have been visited by these companies and their major partners.



BEL Gearing Up For MMRCA Projects




> *Indian Selection of Future Targeting Pod in 2013*
> 
> India has floated a tender for the delivery of more than 100 advanced targeting pods for its strike fighters, Two systems are under consideration – the French Damocles pod, already employed on Mirage 2000 and Rafale, offered by Thales of France, that has teamed with Bharat Electronics Ltd. (BEL) for this program...



Defense Update:Indian Selection of Future Targeting Pod in 2013 - Defense Update:




> *HAL getting ready to manufacture Rafale*
> 
> ...HAL would start producing fuselage and other parts from raw materials. Dassault enginners would assist in technology transfer and production plants...



..:: India Strategic ::. IAF: HAL getting ready to manufacture Rafale



Who can add infos or sources?

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## Last Samuri

The debate was why the mmrcs rafale will cost approx 30 billion dollars over decades but some fool wants to debate economics. And constant price in dollars versus rupees.

Foolish person totally ignored the cost debate


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## Superboy

Looks like the Indian air force will have to choose between Rafale and AMCA for its medium size fighters. I doubt the Indian air force would be able to afford both.  What do you say? Even Tejas Mk 2 would cost over 500 million USD to develop with first flight by 2017 (planned as of 2013).

Livefist: Tejas Mk.2 Build Begins

The Light Combat Aircraft will attain IOC this year and FOC by 2015


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## GURU DUTT

Superboy said:


> Looks like the Indian air force will have to choose between Rafale and AMCA for its medium size fighters. I doubt the Indian air force would be able to afford both.  What do you say? Even Tejas Mk 2 would cost over 500 million USD to develop with first flight by 2017 (planned as of 2013).
> 
> Livefist: Tejas Mk.2 Build Begins
> 
> The Light Combat Aircraft will attain IOC this year and FOC by 2015


well its more like IAF will have

LCA MK 1 & 2 in light wieght ,(150 Total)

Rafales & AMCA combo in medium weight ,(250 total)

FGFA & Super MKI combo in heavy weight catagorry *(450 total)

by 2025 thats the main plan you got a problem


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## Superboy

GURU DUTT said:


> well its more like IAF will have
> 
> LCA MK 1 & 2 in light wieght ,(150 Total)
> 
> Rafales & AMCA combo in medium weight ,(250 total)
> 
> FGFA & Super MKI combo in heavy weight catagorry *(450 total)
> 
> by 2025 thats the main plan you got a problem




By 2025 PAF would have:

at least 200 JF-17
at least 4 Erieye + at least 4 Karakoram Eagle AWACs
at least 4 Il-78 aerial refuelers

Looks like IAF would have the edge according to your plan. 

Let's say Tejas Mk 2 can fly by 2017 according to plan, it would be inducted by 2024. I don't see how IAF can field 150 Tejas by 2025. 

The Light Combat Aircraft will attain IOC this year and FOC by 2015


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## trident2010

What is the current status of tender?


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## halloweene

Gov agreement ready to be signed, technical contracts more or less wrapped up. The rest is political.

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## godofwar

halloweene said:


> Gov agreement ready to be signed, technical contracts more or less wrapped up. The rest is political.


You mean all negotiations are over and the deal only needs political approval ?

If not, then what political issues need resolving ?


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## Abingdonboy

halloweene said:


> Gov agreement ready to be signed, technical contracts more or less wrapped up. The rest is political.


So what is holding them back?


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## dbc

Abingdonboy said:


> So what is holding them back?



Sticker shock


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## Superboy

Dassault suffers hangover from prolonged negotiations in India - FT.com


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## GURU DUTT

Superboy said:


> By 2025 PAF would have:
> 
> at least 200 JF-17
> at least 4 Erieye + at least 4 Karakoram Eagle AWACs
> at least 4 Il-78 aerial refuelers
> 
> Looks like IAF would have the edge according to your plan.
> 
> Let's say Tejas Mk 2 can fly by 2017 according to plan, it would be inducted by 2024. I don't see how IAF can field 150 Tejas by 2025.
> 
> The Light Combat Aircraft will attain IOC this year and FOC by 2015


well there are four tejas variants in works 2 naval and 2 IAF version and yes they are of MK2 and fly later this year and two sepparrate prodution lines are in cunstruction for the same 

as for AWACS & AAR well we have 6 russian IL based AA refulers + 6 based on Airbus are on order as for AWACs 3 phalcons are already there two are on order besides a further order of 6 more is under nagociations + 4 emberear based DRDO AWACs are under construction and testing phase + 16 more willbe ordered shortlly and one new Boing based rodome/Phalcon type AWACs is under research

dont worry about us and rafale is seurlii coming and the order just might grow to 200 in total


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## halloweene

THe technical negociations are very close to be finished. The government agreement is done and waits for signature of tecnical contacts. The timing will be given by india .

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## sancho

> *Indian MoD Approves BEL, Thales JV To Develop Radars*
> 
> The Indian Ministry of Defense has approved the formation of a Joint Venture Company with Thales for the design, development, marketing, supply and support of civilian and select defence radars for Indian and global markets.
> 
> Thales will hold 26 per cent stake in the company, as per the Defence foreign direct investment (FDI) norms that India prescribes at present. BEL, as expected, will hold the rest 74 per cent stake, which is touted to be around $10 million...



Indian MoD Approves BEL, Thales JV To Develop Radars


The next step in the right direction?

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## Abingdonboy

halloweene said:


> THe technical negociations are very close to be finished. The government agreement is done and waits for signature of tecnical contacts. The timing will be given by india .


So what do you think? Soon? And how soon is soon?



sancho said:


> Indian MoD Approves BEL, Thales JV To Develop Radars
> 
> 
> The next step in the right direction?


Indeed, certainly seems all the stars are lining up.......


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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> Indeed, certainly seems all the stars are lining up.......



It will be interesting though, what parts of SPECTRA might be produced or even customized by BEL.

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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> It will be interesting though, what parts of SPECTRA might be produced or even customized by BEL.


Indeed, but what customisations do you think BEL can make for the IAF to SPECTRA?


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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> Indeed, but what customisations do you think BEL can make for the IAF to SPECTRA?



Different RWRs for example, similar to MKI or LCA and it is evident that IAF has a preference for UV MAWS with more than 2 x sensors like the DDM NG, which is based on IR sensors, not to mention that DIRCM system could be interesting too and we have some Israeli options there. So that are some possibilities, but I personally I always hoped for joint developments of Rafale upgrades, which would be a win win, sadly so far it's doesn't look like that.

P.S. Given the fact that FGFAs EWS will be developed now too, it actually would make sense to look for commonlity of systems. RWR, LWR, UV MAWS, DIRCM, jammers...

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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> Different RWRs for example, similar to MKI or LCA and it is evident that IAF has a preference for UV MAWS with more than 2 x sensors like the DDM NG, which is based on IR sensors, not to mention that DIRCM system could be interesting too and we have some Israeli options there. So that are some possibilities, but I personally I always hoped for joint developments of Rafale upgrades, which would be a win win, sadly so far it's doesn't look like that.
> 
> P.S. Given the fact that FGFAs EWS will be developed now too, it actually would make sense to look for commonlity of systems. RWR, LWR, UV MAWS, DIRCM, jammers...


All true. But as far as DIRCMs go- what IAF systems have these? None as of now. Although I've heard the LCH will have DIRCMs and apparently ELBIT offered DIRCMs for the IAF's C-17s but I don't know if the IAF took them up on this offer.


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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> All true. But as far as DIRCMs go- what IAF systems have these? None as of now. Although I've heard the LCH will have DIRCMs and apparently ELBIT offered DIRCMs for the IAF's C-17s but I don't know if the IAF took them up on this offer.



The AW 101 VIP had it, the LCH was planned to get it, Rudra possibly too, FGFA for sure. So it's definitely part of the future EW package of several IAF aircrafts and after Kargil, I think IAF might have an interest in that system for fighters (especially the once that operates at low altitudes) too.


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## ice bomb

*India, Dassault Rafale Deal Appears Stalled | Defense News | defensenews.com*
*India, Dassault Rafale Deal Appears Stalled*


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## Last Samuri

When will someone have the GUTS/BALLS to make a decision on this saga either way.

YES OR NO put us out of our misery


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## halloweene

Pure BS

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## Abingdonboy

halloweene said:


> Pure BS


I agree pure speculation by idiots in the media.


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## PARIKRAMA

LOL i like the way so many speculations are gng on... m 100% confident now that the deal is seeing final signing time.. now the decision is just when.. now or after 4 months... 
My belief is from the fact that since so many BS is getting posted all over, the heartburn and vendetta to derail is seeing magnanimous proportions... the day its signed, wud love to see those sulking faces...


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## Abingdonboy

PARIKRAMA said:


> LOL i like the way so many speculations are gng on... m 100% confident now that the deal is seeing final signing time.. now the decision is just when.. now or after 4 months...
> My belief is from the fact that since so many BS is getting posted all over, the heartburn and vendetta to derail is seeing magnanimous proportions... the day its signed, wud love to see those sulking faces...


I suppose one could look at it that way. Certain parties with vested interests are seeing this deal creeping towards closure and are going on an all out attack to malign and disrupt the process.


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## godofwar

Last Samuri said:


> When will someone have the GUTS/BALLS to make a decision on this saga either way.
> 
> YES OR NO put us out of our misery



Itni tension mat le mamu


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## SRP

Delay in MMRCA mainly due to financial crunch. Next year the process shall continue: Antony.
MMRCA will materialize, Def Min Antony says. Not this financial year but in the next financial year.
Antony says delay in MMRCA not only due to life cycle cost complaints but also as no money left in capital fund this year.
On MMRCA, Antony says the def min got complaints on life cycle cost calculations. Matter has not been sorted out by inquiry is on.


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## trident2010

wrap up the deal and use $12bn for Su-30 super upgrades and Tejas-blk2/3 swiftly. Also pursue FGFA on priority basis.


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## Last Samuri

Abingdonboy said:


> I suppose one could look at it that way. Certain parties with vested interests are seeing this deal creeping towards closure and are going on an all out attack to malign and disrupt the process.



People predicted that financially rafale was not viable over a year ago. No ssurprise there


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## Badbadman

desert warrior said:


> Delay in MMRCA mainly due to financial crunch. Next year the process shall continue: Antony.
> MMRCA will materialize, Def Min Antony says. Not this financial year but in the next financial year.
> Antony says delay in MMRCA not only due to life cycle cost complaints but also as no money left in capital fund this year.
> On MMRCA, Antony says the def min got complaints on life cycle cost calculations. Matter has not been sorted out by inquiry is on.


So the bottom line is Rafale deal will be signed next fiscal year and it has been delayed because of budget cuts nothing else.
Have to wait a bit longer I suppose


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## halloweene

maybe an interime 18 fighters contract in order to fill incoming IAF gap and start training pilots/mechanics early.


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## Badbadman

halloweene said:


> maybe an interime 18 fighters contract in order to fill incoming IAF gap and start training pilots/mechanics early.


That's a good idea. I second that


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## sancho

desert warrior said:


> Delay in MMRCA mainly due to financial crunch.



Or political reasons due to the coming elections? Sad, but not surprising.



halloweene said:


> maybe an interime 18 fighters contract in order to fill incoming IAF gap and start training pilots/mechanics early.



What for? The reports say not in the current "fiscal year", but the next starts from march onwards, so there is no gap that an interime order now would fill. IF the current government remains in power, they will buy Rafale after the elections. If a new government comes, things will be different again. That's what happens when you delay things for the wrong reasons.


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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> Or political reasons due to the coming elections? Sad, but not surprising.
> 
> 
> 
> What for? The reports say not in the current "fiscal year", but the next starts from march onwards, so there is no gap that an interime order now would fill. IF the current government remains in power, they will buy Rafale after the elections. If a new government comes, things will be different again. That's what happens when you delay things for the wrong reasons.


I don't see a new govt, especially a Modi-led one challenging this purchase. He's about having a strong military. But yes it will delay this deal for months maybe to mid-2014.

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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> I don't see a new govt, especially a Modi-led one challenging this purchase. He's about having a strong military. But yes it will delay this deal for months maybe to mid-2014.



I wouldn't bet on that. Keep in mind that we talk about politicans and they surely will have issues to go for a deal, that will mainly be related to Congres and Antony. Not to mention, that they could fuel the notion in the public, that going for indigenous fighters instead, would be better. So more LCA MK1s and no Rafales at all, which is the worst that could happen for IAF and the Indian aero industry, but definitely secures votes.


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## PARIKRAMA

The discussion i heard after talking with my friend is that there is a performance guarantee required to be signed by HAL for its 108 jets manufacturing towards a time scheduled based delivery which is making them pee in their pants.. Dassault says as on Day 0, all the building blocks (read Kits as well as all OEM based tech as well as TOT) will be given to HAL for commencing the serial production... HAL officials panicked that such clearly demarcated steps would mean a large onus and responsibility fall on them. That is where HAL official clearly replied to MOD about relative inexperience in such an environment where such time bound performance guarantees to IAF is required. HAL top mgmt were grilled about SU 30 MKI production till date and the so called reply was that no such clause of guarantee is there to IAF and penalty hence HAL is yet to be skilled for such a project based performance. Reliance on its part has agreed to sign a back to back performance based contract with both HAL and Dassault... the fear HAL is having is that time based coming up of units to do assembly line production is not under their hands.. Dassault had clearly said thats its partnering India to see that all building blocks and manufacturing hub comes up but still will require large support from GOI and chiefly from HAL.. the MOD were happy with the professional approach by Dassault who had indicated in clear terms of forging a long term partnership and is having the blessing of french government who had directed them to give the best of possible deals to a very friendly country...

The lifetime Cost of the units had so called escalated as the manufacturing hub, skill set imparting and full TOT absorption was not fully taken into view as before.. But that is not something too bothering as Finance Ministry has indicated that substantial tax rebate regime and SEZ hub declaration wud be done to facilitate the investments needed for this hub. This LTC point is just thrown in air now to deflect the issue a bit in other directions.

Thus, its our great HAL which is making negotiations go slow nothing else.. as far as Budgetary provision is concerned the signing of contract and initial amount is much meagre .. ALso EC is yet to announce poll date so its a gud time away from code of conduct.. the whole thing is getting covered up simply bcz if HAL is pressed hard atm just before elections, there is a fear that other parties may start pointing fingers of not able to protect local industry interest and well being.. come another 6 months, the same things will be sorted with some last minute negotiations...

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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> I wouldn't bet on that. Keep in mind that we talk about politicans and they surely will have issues to go for a deal, that will mainly be related to Congres and Antony. Not to mention, that they could fuel the notion in the public, that going for indigenous fighters instead, would be better. So more LCA MK1s and no Rafales at all, which is the worst that could happen for IAF and the Indian aero industry, but definitely secures votes.


I don't see it. The case for the Rafale is well understood and the IAF aren't going to let that happen. To be fair none of those noises have been coming out of the BJP, nothing to indicate the Rafale deal is in jeopardy. If there was the BJP would've already been up in arms about it but instead they aren't interested. With the industry offsets involved with this deal I think someone as pragmatic as Modi will be able to see the benefits of this deal. Dassualt have already said they are prepared to deal with whomever gets into power so they must have done their research and must have their arguments ready.

I do think there is actually much danger of Modi scrapping the deal to be honest.


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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> I don't see it. The case for the Rafale is well understood and the IAF aren't going to let that happen.



IAF is in no position to demand Rafale, they couldn't even get Mirage 2000-5, that they actually wanted, because the government (no mater which one) has to see the bigger picture and not only IAFs sight. The current government put a big focus on inproving of the industrial side, we will have to see where a BJP government might see their forcus. Not to mention that there is still the EF consortium loitering in the background, eager to see a government change, with the hope to provide a new offer.



Abingdonboy said:


> To be fair none of those noises have been coming out of the BJP, nothing to indicate the Rafale deal is in jeopardy.



True, but there was neither an official statement that they back it, in fact that would be pretty stupid at this point and so close to the elections, since that would signal that the MMRCA / Rafale deal of the current government is right and the BJP would loose a chance to attack them.



Abingdonboy said:


> Dassualt have already said they are prepared to deal with whomever gets into power so they must have done their research and must have their arguments ready.



Do they have another choice? No! But does a new government have another choice? Yes (EF, LCA)!
That's exactly why I said for month that it's silly of Dassault to delay things from their side, instead of doing anything to fix the deal as fast as possible.[/quote][/quote]

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## jiki

Abingdonboy said:


> I don't see it. The case for the Rafale is well understood and the IAF aren't going to let that happen. To be fair none of those noises have been coming out of the BJP, nothing to indicate the Rafale deal is in jeopardy. If there was the BJP would've already been up in arms about it but instead they aren't interested. With the industry offsets involved with this deal I think someone as pragmatic as Modi will be able to see the benefits of this deal. Dassualt have already said they are prepared to deal with whomever gets into power so they must have done their research and must have their arguments ready.
> 
> I do think there is actually much danger of Modi scrapping the deal to be honest.


its not only the new modi led bjp gov bro but we hav to wt n watch who gonna be the next DM .sancho is quite reasonable by saying it will be a different ball of game both for the Dassualt officials and IAF to force a new gov and a new DM. They have to change some of their strategy.

But here the lacuna lies somewhere else, my fingers are towards our H.A.L. imo HAL is one of the main cause behind the slow negotiation,slow adoption of techs,slow production and fallacious indigenous products in every international strategic deal be it MMRCA or FGFA.or LCA

I wish, the MODI led gov will take some measures to curtail its monopoly in our aero industry and let pvt guys to come in


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## drunken-monke

Abingdonboy said:


> I do think there is actually much danger of Modi scrapping the deal to be honest.


I think you are correct.. Modi is a hardcore nationalist.. Though he prefers desi made goodies, but case is of national security and choice of IAF.. And as you said taking offset in to consideration and TOT (partial) he would go ahead with the deal.. Remember, BJP govt in 1998 went straight away for nuclear test....


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## sancho

jiki said:


> imo HAL is one of the main cause behind the slow negotiation,slow adoption of techs,slow production and fallacious indigenous products in every international strategic deal be it MMRCA or FGFA.or LCA



That's difficult to say, what we know from official statements is, that the MoD and IAF wants HAL to be the lead company for the production of the overall fighter. The crucial systems however, will be provided by others:

Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions | Page 600


Dassault has 2 issues, once that they want to divert workshare from HAL towards their prefered partner Reliance and secondly that the governments wants them to be responsible for possible delays in the licence production too.
The earlier is an issue mainly of Dassault and not negotiable for IAF or the current DM. The second point is more tricky, since they don't to pay penality for HALs mistakes, but at the same time MoD has learned from earlier mistakes in the MKI, or Hawk licence productions, where delayes were caused due to slow transfer of technology by the vendors, after they supplied the kits they produced. So it is important for India to hold Dassault, or any other vendor accountable in legal form, for the whole deal, not just for the first 18 fighters!

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## jiki

Abingdonboy man u r quiet confident about this RAFALE, so i was.

It really a sad day,and a matter of pity, and how the dolt,dork,boor,dumbasshole ANTONY anounced that "we had left with no money" and that to on a occasion like DEFEXXPO ,it will only help to tarnish our industry confidence and image globally ...

India cant never be, even a regional south asian power frgt abt CHINA, with this kind of atrocious and sucking democracy, where there is money for all the populist scheme to get votes but there is nothing for the national security.......


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## Abingdonboy

jiki said:


> Abingdonboy man u r quiet confident about this RAFALE, so i was.
> 
> It really a sad day,and a matter of pity, and how the dolt,dork,boor,dumbasshole ANTONY anounced that "we had left with no money" and that to on a occasion like DEFEXXPO ,it will only help to tarnish our industry confidence and image globally ...
> 
> India cant never be, even a regional south asian power frgt abt CHINA, with this kind of atrocious and sucking democracy, where there is money for all the populist scheme to get votes but there is nothing for the national security.......


It's not blind optimism mate, its rooted in logic and what I can see. I don't see any reason to be overly pessimistic on the Rafale deal .


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## Superboy

No Rafale deal this year. India delays Rafale deal after exhausting capital budget| Reuters


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## Abingdonboy

Superboy said:


> No Rafale deal this year. India delays Rafale deal after exhausting capital budget| Reuters


This Financial year.


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## Superboy

If Rafale deal really is increased to 30 billion USD, then how can India afford it given its annual budget of 36 billion in 2013?


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## sancho

Superboy said:


> If Rafale deal really is increased to 30 billion USD, then how can India afford it given its annual budget of 36 billion in 2013?



Who said it is? Most sources talk about something between $15 -20 billion and you don't really expect to pay us all at once right?

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## ejaz007

*India, Dassault Rafale Deal Appears Stalled*

*NEW DELHI* — Negotiations over the multibillion dollar deal to sell 126 Dassault Rafale jets to India have stalled, according to Indian Defence Ministry sources, who say the sticking point involves issues governing license-production of the jets at state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL).

A series of meetings held over the past three months have failed to resolve the stalemate, the sources said, meaning it is unlikely the deal will be finalized during the current New Delhi administration.

At the beginning of the year, Rafale-maker Dassault met with the MoD, Indian Air Force and HAL to break the impasse, sources said. A planned visit by HAL Chairman R.K. Tyagi for Jan. 27-31 has been postponed, putting a question mark over the entire program.

A Dassault executive said the company was informed at the last minute about the postponement of the HAL team visit to Paris and gave no details.

However, a senior HAL executive said the visit was postponed due to a sudden company board meeting at home. He said the visit has just been postponed, not canceled.

At issue is the Indian Air Force’s insistence that HAL provide guarantees on the delivery schedule for the Rafale aircraft. According to the tender, 108 of the 126 jets are to be license-produced at HAL.

HAL in turn has shifted the onus of providing guarantees to Dassault, which initially refused before agreeing to help HAL adhere to the delivery schedule.

However, HAL has failed to take responsibility and guarantee the work of its sub vendors, which includes state-owned companies, including Bharat Electronics Ltd. (BEL), which would supply auxiliary systems, the Air Force sources said.

At the same time, the framework governing work share has not been finalized because the Indian side wants a greater percentage of subsystems and auxiliary work in the license production deal. The French say HAL will need to absorb Western technologies, so the work share can increase only as the license production progresses, MoD sources said.

The Air Force, having suffered delays from HAL, is adamant that the delivery schedule is followed. Air Force sources say the delay in procurement of the fighter will severely affect the fleet strength of the force. The service had to search for a fighter aircraft in the overseas market because the homegrown light combat aircraft, proposed to replace Russian MiG fighters, is more than 15 years behind schedule.

MoD sources say the delay over the Rafale deal has led to a steep rise in the cost of the project — from an estimated $11 billion to more than $14 billion — due to inflation and a more than 20 percent fall in the value of the Indian rupee against the US dollar in the last three years.

The first request for information for the program was floated in December 2005, followed by a request for proposal in August 2007.

As part of the contract negotiations, the Indian MoD set up four subcommittees in the run up to the finalization of the deal with Dassault. These include subcommittees on technology of production, offsets, logistics and cost negotiations.

MoD sources said the Air Force’s tough stance and delivery guarantees have stalled the negotiations.

Rafale was shortlisted alongside the Eurofighter Typhoon after the first round of competition; the US-made F-16 and F/A-18, Sweden’s Gripen and Russia’s MiG-35 were ejected after the technical evaluation.

After the flight trials and life cycle cost phase, Rafale was selected due to its low cost. Contract negotiations began in early 2012, with the goal of signing a contract in the current financial year ending in March.

“The project, regarded as a prestigious project for the MoD, is not getting the right priority by the MoD,” said New Delhi-based defense analyst Nitin Mehta. “The ruling government could be seen as avoiding taking a decision on the big ticket project ahead of the general elections.”

*Email: vraghuvanshi@defensenews.com.

India, Dassault Rafale Deal Appears Stalled | Defense News | defensenews.com*


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## SR-91

NO ONE WANTS TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY.HOW WILL THIS WORK?


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## kaykay

Superboy said:


> If Rafale deal really is increased to 30 billion USD, then how can India afford it given its annual budget of 36 billion in 2013?


Its gonna be a max 20 billion USD and no country pay money at once. It would be paid over the period of 6-7 years respective to Rafale induction in batches.


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## Last Samuri

Indian defense budget was 40 billion dollars I think not 36 billion.


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## sancho

> * MMRCA deal will materialise soon: Antony *
> 
> Defence Minister A.K. Antony Thursday said negotiations to calculate "life-cycle cost" in the purchase of the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) were not settled yet but he was hopeful that the contract will materialse in the coming fiscal.
> 
> Talking to media persons at Defexpo '14 here, Antony denied there was any delay in concluding the MMRCA deal.
> 
> Antony said there were some complaints about the procedure to calculate life-cycle cost. "That's still not settled... (But) that is not affecting the process," he said.
> 
> The minister said that before taking the matter to the Cabinet Committee on Security, the defence ministry wanted clear cut answers on life-cycle cost of the combat aircraft.
> 
> "We do not want to shortcut the procedures," Antony said.
> 
> He said the ministry has already spent 92 percent of its capital budget for 2013-14 fiscal and there was no money this year for new projects.
> 
> "Major procurements are humanly possible only in next financial year," Antony said.
> 
> "(I hope) MMRCA will materialise next year," he said.
> 
> French firm Dassault Aviation bagged in 2012 the $10 billion deal for purchase of 126 Rafale medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA).
> 
> Officials said the MMRCA deal is "complicated" and the contract has "technicalities and legal issues".



MMRCA deal will materialise soon: Antony | Business Standard



Last Samuri said:


> Indian defense budget was 40 billion dollars I think not 36 billion.





> *India's Defence Budget 2013-14*
> 
> ...The net defence outlay of INR 2,03,672.12 crore (*USD 37 bn*) *for 2013-14* represents a growth of 5.31 per cent over the defence outlay of INR 1,93,407.29 crore (*USD 35 bn*) *for 2012-13*...



..:: India Strategic ::. MoD Updates: India's Defence Budget 2013-14

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## Last Samuri

Better start taking lessons from Pakistan.

How to build a useful airforce on a shoestring budget ie

second hand fighters plus budget fighters like Tejas at $26m and upgrade them with better symptons over time


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## Abingdonboy

Last Samuri said:


> Better start taking lessons from Pakistan.
> 
> How to build a useful airforce on a shoestring budget ie
> 
> second hand fighters plus budget fighters like Tejas at $26m and upgrade them with better symptons over time


Why would India need to do that when it is spending 100+ billion on its AF over the next 10-15 years. It doesn't face the same limitations as the PAF.


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## Last Samuri

I,ll take the $100 billion with a pinch of salt.

They are runnuing scared of a $25 billion deal for rafale which was needed for LAST 10 years.

i see IAF spending $50 billion over a decade but $100 BILLION no chance


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## Abingdonboy

Last Samuri said:


> I,ll take the $100 billion with a pinch of salt.
> 
> They are runnuing scared of a $25 billion deal for rafale which was needed for LAST 10 years.
> 
> i see IAF spending $50 billion over a decade but $100 BILLION no chance


 Based on what? They themselves said a few weeks back the figure was 150 billion in 10-15 years:

IAF to procure equipment, platforms worth $150 billion for next 15 years - Financial Express

$50 billion would only cover the FGFA and Rafale deals and would leave little to no room for anything else. 

"running scared" of the Rafale deal- just shut up if you have nothing constructive or informed to add.

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## Alphacharlie

Last Samuri said:


> I,ll take the $100 billion with a pinch of salt.
> 
> They are runnuing scared of a $25 billion deal for rafale which was needed for LAST 10 years.
> 
> i see IAF spending $50 billion over a decade but $100 BILLION no chance



*YOU ARE TALKING LIKE A 4 YEAR OLD KID.

IF YOU KNOW FACTS PRESENT THEM, ELSE BULLSHIT TALKS*


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## Superboy

Besides Rafales costing 25 to 30 billion USD, the IAF must fund Tejas at 26 million each for Mk 1 planes, development of Mk 2, more Su-30MKI orders, FGFA orders, development of AMCA. All in all, it could be well over 100 billion over 10 years


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## PARIKRAMA

i have long advocated abt quality over quantity/// thats the same logic i feel IAF also believes... i dont care abt the costs as media reports are all BS... the fact of the matter is we need Rafale and Rafale needs us.. rest all whatever we need to work out , it will be done the way it shud be..


On the shoe string budget comment, kindly understand one small logic.. we dont have all the arsenal/birds/warships targeting one side... our roles of defense varies from north to east to west to south.. each side presents different sets of challenges... 

[btw i wud be more happy if we could strengthen our andaman and nicobar islands and place say a squad or 2 of frontline fighters with longer range (rafale/MKI or mix)... the area has very large needs of covering the entire IOR as well as protecting the trade routes with our navy...]


so i am cool with whatever figure is needed.. if there is an issue of income production to meet teh budget then do sumthn to ensure the economy grows and we can meet that budget.. it simple.. no rocket science needed


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## nik22

Better we put our energy and Internet bandwidth on discussion about FGFA, Tejas MK2. This deal looks like shelved to me


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## sancho

nik22 said:


> Better we put our energy and Internet bandwidth on discussion about FGFA, Tejas MK2. This deal looks like shelved to me



Till the elections, then we either see a decison or a U-Turn.


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## Last Samuri

If I'm talking bull shit will see. But I think iaf wil spend no more than 50 billion next decade and will follow as such

5 billion tejas
25 billion mmrca
10 billion awacs and transpory planes
10 billion on Sam and missle radar


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## Abingdonboy

Last Samuri said:


> If I'm talking bull shit will see. But I think iaf wil spend no more than 50 billion next decade and will follow as such
> 
> 5 billion tejas
> 25 billion mmrca
> 10 billion awacs and transpory planes
> 10 billion on Sam and missle radar


You are talking 100% BS, firstly how the hell can YOU possibly contradict what the IAF has officially said themselves (150 BN in the next 12-15 years)? You're just a loud mouth trolling looking for attention- is that it?


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## SpArK

*More Turbulence Likely for Air Force's Rafale Deal*
By Express News Service - NEW DELHI

Published: 11th February 2014 07:56 AM

Last Updated: 11th February 2014 07:56 AM

There are fresh signs of trouble for the country’s ‘mother of all deals’ to buy 126 French Rafale combat planes.

After Defence Minister A K Antony told a DefExpo press conference last week that there were complaints regarding the life cycle cost of the 126 medium multirole combat aircraft (MMRCA) that the IAF is buying, he told Parliament on Monday that all of the MiG-21 and MiG-27 combat planes would be replaced by the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA).

Antony told the Lok Sabha in written replies to questions that there were 14 combat squadrons of the IAF that use the two Russian-origin single-engine planes and these would be phased out over the next few years. These “will be replaced by the LCA”. Antony’s statement is a major setback for the MMRCA project for which Rafale has been chosen as the lowest bidding aircraft two years ago and the contract, said to be worth Rs 1 lakh crore, is yet to be signed.

The IAF had originally planned to equip the squadrons that fly the MiG-21s and MiG-27s with the plane chosen under the MMRCA procurment, which now obviously is the Rafale. Though Antony said the Rafale procurement is in the pipeline and that there was no rethink on it now, the trouble with its life-cycle cost calculation is likely to delay the signing of the contract, as he has already indicated that it was not possible within this fiscal. As the UPA’s return to power at the Centre is not certain and hence, the new government may take a while to study the Rafale purchase before taking a decision.

However, as things stand today, the LCA has obtained its initial operational clearance in December 2013 and is readying to get its final operational clearance by the end of 2014.

Till now, the MoD only ordered two squadrons comprising 20 LCAs each -- one in the LCA in IOC configuration and another in FOC configuration -- making it a total of 40.


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## sancho

> *Exclusive! The DDM-NG: a detector departure missiles, but not that!*
> 
> The missile launch detector is a passive sensor present at the top of the drift of the burst. Fully integrated protection system of the aircraft, the famous SPECTRA, it gives the aircraft a day before 360 ° around it, to alert the driver when a missile is fired in his direction, detecting infrared radiation emitted by the rocket motor of the missile during its boost phase...



http://translate.google.com/transla...m-ng-un-detecteur-de_8513.html&langpair=fr|en


Interesting read, but routing a bit towards PR imo


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## halloweene

Not PR, sincerely i had to cut parts in the article about the sensor and its consequences. Remeber it is published in a popularization blog, original text was more... Neutral.

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## sancho

halloweene said:


> Not PR, sincerely i had to cut parts in the article about the sensor and its consequences. Remeber it is published in a popularization blog, original text was more... Neutral.



I know and it wasn't an offence, but you have to admit that the article tries to make DDM NG look like EODAS, although it also says that many of the capabilities will come only in future and also tries to justify the lack of the FSO-IR. But as I wrote on IDF, it doesn't and when you keep in mind that the production / procurement of the IRST by French forces was stopped long before the DDM NG was available, it should make clear, that the one has no relation with the other as an alternative. It might offer some capabilities to detect an IR target, but not comparable in range and capablity as a dedicated IRST. 
On the other side, even EFs PIRATE IRST is said to be used as an IR MAW to the forward section. One wonders what would be more effective / beneficiary, IR MAWS with some IRST capabilities, or dedicated IRST with some MAW capabilities?
Btw, do you have more infos on the SATCOM capability, that you said would come for Indian Rafales? Is that feature developed now and any new infos on customizations?


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## halloweene

Interesting, as i said on another forum, i wrote the article (and largely had to cut parts from it). I tried to write it for its purpose, a popoularization blog. I also wrote that a irst is lacking in the article and would be complementary. Everyone agree that a real IRST is lacking on FRENCH Rafales.
About SATCOM, well its in the way (and not very pretty btw). I rarely assume future facts sancho, trust me on that one

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## halloweene

I agree with your point, irst lacking on OSF IT its for the french Rafalese is lame. What i intended to say is that it was less urgent with ddm ng.
I have no news about indian rafales customization, speaking about it is like talking to a wall here...

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## sancho

halloweene said:


> I tried to write it for its purpose, a popoularization blog.



And please keep doing it, the article was definitely interesting and there is far too less info on SPECTRA and DDM NG anyway, I just was surprised to read about the relation drawn to FSO-IR.



halloweene said:


> I also wrote that a irst is lacking in the article and would be complementary. Everyone agree that a real IRST is lacking on FRENCH Rafales.
> About SATCOM, well its in the way (and not very pretty btw). I rarely assume future facts sancho, trust me on that one



I have no doubt about "Indian" Rafales will come with IRST and that any export customer will get it via Samtel, just not sure about how capable it really is and a little disappointed that no joint development of FSO-NG seems to be on the list. FSO-NG, PDL-NG, MICA NG IR / Maitri, HMS, there was so much potential for joint developments as a true French - Indian project.

 No trust issues mate, just eager to get more credible infos and sick of the delays and bad media reports.


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## sancho



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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


>


I for one hope the IN doesn't go for the Rafale-M, yes the IAF needs this plane but the IN needs to look to Next-gen fighters for their future ACCs.


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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> I for one hope the IN doesn't go for the Rafale-M, yes the IAF needs this plane but the IN needs to look to Next-gen fighters for their future ACCs.



True, but we sadly have only a very short sighted and egoistic DRDO as the developer of a NG fighter.


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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> True, but we sadly have only a very short sighted and egoistic DRDO as the developer of a NG fighter.


Well there's always the N-FGFA (fingers crossed).


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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> Well there's always the N-FGFA (fingers crossed).



Which won't help us if IN wants catapults.


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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> Which won't help us if IN wants catapults.


Well has anyone actually ruled out the N-FGFA being able to launch from Catapults? I know it is a long shot but a man can still pray!


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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> Well has anyone actually ruled out the N-FGFA being able to launch from Catapults? I know it is a long shot but a man can still pray!



The development of the fighter rules that basically out, because just as LCA for example, it was developed as an air force fighter without any airframe strenghtenings or so. The navalisation that we have seen on N-LCA would come later, but even for normal ski-jump take off the changes were far more complicated than ADA/DRDO expected, making a fighter catapult capable is a totally different level again. So if we want CATOBAR carriers and an own NG fighter, we need to develop AMCA in that direction from the start, it we just want bigger STOBAR carriers, N-FGFA is the best way to go.


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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> The development of the fighter rules that basically out, because just as LCA for example, it was developed as an air force fighter without any airframe strenghtenings or so. The navalisation that we have seen on N-LCA would come later, but even for normal ski-jump take off the changes were far more complicated than ADA/DRDO expected, making a fighter catapult capable is a totally different level again. So if we want CATOBAR carriers and an own NG fighter, we need to develop AMCA in that direction from the start, it we just want bigger STOBAR carriers, N-FGFA is the best way to go.


Well a man can but dream @sancho, I know you are probably right and i was racking my brain but most CATOBAR capable naval fighters around have been designed pretty much from the ground up as naval fighters or with tho capability. However I think it could be a possibility we can't rule out as outsiders as we don't know the capabilities of the design and to be fair (even though its unproven) the Sea Gripen is touted as being able to operate from either STOBAR or CATOBAR ACCs and that was never meant to be a Naval fighter. Similarly the F-18 initially went head to head for a USAF requirement so its basic design was not meant to be a naval fighter at all. 


Otherwise, I think the F-35C is looking very likely.


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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> to be fair (even though its unproven) the Sea Gripen is touted as being able to operate from either STOBAR or CATOBAR ACCs and that was never meant to be a Naval fighter.



Not as a naval fighter, but included airframe and gear strenghtenings as a requirement of the design, to operate the fighter from roads and not only from fully fledged air bases. That's the reason why Saab has it easier to navalise the fighter for STOBAR carriers, than we have for N-LCA (already existing canards will be an advantage too) and why they say they can further navalise it for catapult operations to, although they didn't said how much changes that might require.
The Sea Typhoon is the opposite case and more comparable to FGFA and a naval version. Designed and developed for air forces, the later navalisation evaluations of Brits showed, that STOBAR operations would be possible, but even that included so many changes that it was an expensive solution. Further navalising to catapult operations was even ruled out in their offer to IN as not feasable.
Also don't forget the political factor! The US will never provide us catapults for the use of a Russian fighter, since they will fear that the Russians could use that for Pak Fa and their future carriers too. So that's an option that hardly has a chance and as we discussed before, I expect a combined deal for catapults anyway.


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## halloweene

Btw, DCNS and General Atomics CEOs had a long talk at Defexpo...


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## jha

So the Rafale maniacs still beating this dead horse..? Keep discussing .. and hoping...

But in the end I am gonna have the last laugh ...  

@sancho , @SpArK , @Abingdonboy ...


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## sancho

jha said:


> So the Rafale maniacs still beating this dead horse..? Keep discussing .. and hoping...
> 
> But in the end I am gonna have the last laugh ...
> 
> @sancho , @SpArK , @Abingdonboy ...



How so? Your prefered fighteres were rejected right away. 



halloweene said:


> Btw, DCNS and General Atomics CEOs had a long talk at Defexpo...



What does it mean?


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## SpArK

Buddy-Buddy RAFALE

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## jha

sancho said:


> How so? Your prefered fighteres were rejected right away.
> 
> 
> 
> What does it mean?



My stance has always been : Any fighter but Rafale


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## halloweene

Probably that they are working to integrate EMALS on DCNS future carrier designed (the one shown at Defexpo). No clue.

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## sancho

jha said:


> My stance has always been : Any fighter but Rafale



Hater


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## sancho

> *Interim Budget: Defence allocation raised by 10%*
> 
> Finance minister P Chidambaram has proposed a 10-per cent increase in the allocation for the defence ministry to help its modernisation drive.
> 
> Accordingly the defence allocation in the interim budget will go up to Rs2,24,000 crore, an increase of 10 per cent year-on-year...
> 
> These include a $20-billion (Rs1,25,000 crore) deal to acquire 126 multi-role combat aircraft for the Indian Air Force, which had to be postponed because of lack of funds...



domain-b.com : Interim Budget: Defence allocation raised by 10% to Rs2,24,000 crore

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## godofwar

French know how to bleed us dry.
See Mirage upgrade fiasco.
Whats stopping them from doing the same with Rafale ?
If the deal is not to our satisfaction, I wouldn't be sad to see it cancelled.

So far nobody in the whole world thinks buying the Rafale is economical, other than the French themselves obviously.

We can get a combo of more MKIs,FGFA,Tejas or Typhoons as an alternative instead.


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## rockstarIN

jha said:


> My stance has always been : Any fighter but Rafale




Even I was supporting EF, but now I'm okay with it except the price and attitude.


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## sancho

godofwar said:


> So far nobody in the whole world thinks buying the Rafale is economical



And neither does MoD or IAF, but that wasn't important for them anyway othwerwise they would had higher focus on costs and not on performance and industrial advantage and that's what Rafale will give us. From the 2 shortlisted choices, the Rafale is the clearly more economical choice though.



rockstarIN said:


> Even I was supporting EF, but now I'm okay with it except the price and attitude.



Hehe and currently I am routing more in favour for a revised EF offer, for more benefits, but I will be more than happy with Rafale too.

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## Executioner

sancho said:


> Hehe and *currently I am routing more in favour for a revised EF offer*, for more benefits, but I will be more than happy with Rafale too.


 Why sudden change of heart mate.


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## halloweene

> French know how to bleed us dry.See Mirage upgrade fiasco.



Do you think IAF heads are stupid? there was another contender offer...



> Even I was supporting EF, but now I'm okay with it except the price and attitude.



Explain precisely please, apart from a blog citing anonymous sources about price.



> Hehe and currently I am routing more in favour for a revised EF offer, for more benefits, but I will be more than happy with Rafale too.



You realize this is a desperate attempt to break a done deal without credible offer, do you?


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## sancho

Executioner said:


> Why sudden change of heart mate.



Nothing special, just that I think that with the delays the EF could offer a better industrial and even technological potential for us, eventhough the costs might be higher. We have discussed that here a bit:

UK keen to offer Eurofighter to India | Page 6



halloweene said:


> Do you think IAF heads are stupid? there was another contender offer...



If you mean the Israeli offer, that was only for certain techs and weapons and still would had required Dassault to make the overhaul in the first place. And the missiles might not be suitable to the M2K.



halloweene said:


> You realize this is a desperate attempt to break a done deal without credible offer, do you?



The deal is not done, Rafale is "only" the prefered choice at the moment and I don't mean the reports about the EF partners, but am looking at the delays and what potential the EF consortium then would offer to India. And if the EF partners would put out a fully fledged offer now, the EF package turn out to be the better one.


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## halloweene

Ok, very close done deal so as PR campaign from Bae (and these words arent mine)


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## sancho

halloweene said:


> Ok, very close done deal so as PR campaign from Bae (and these words arent mine)



I wouldn't be so sure about it, as I said I don't give that much about the PR campaign, but see the election as the bigger factor. That can change everything! From Rafale a handshake away of sealing the deal now (and I was warning for a long time that Dassault should speed up), to the EF coming back in the game when a new government is in power. In Brazil the president, the defence minister openly supported the Rafale, but then the election came and a nearly fixed deal went into new evaluation and now even to a major blow for Dassault. I really don't want the same to happen in India too, at least unless the offer for India is more favourable and the longer the selection takes, the better for the EF.


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## halloweene

As "journalist" (minor one tbh), i can only repeat what i heared. Technically contracts are more or less wrapped, 50 to 200 ppl worked on it for 2 years.... And as a Dassault executive told me this summer, "we dont want to mess anything with India. If we are not def sure everything wont go smoothly, we won't sign. India is our oldest export customer"

executive is Matthieu Durand btw.

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## sancho

halloweene said:


> And as a Dassault executive told me this summer, "we dont want to mess anything with India.



They should had thought about that before the Reliance / HAL issue. Anyway, I'm gone for a 5 week trip to India, fixing the deal once and for all. 

Take care everybody!
Sancho

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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> I wouldn't be so sure about it, as I said I don't give that much about the PR campaign, but see the election as the bigger factor. That can change everything! From Rafale a handshake away of sealing the deal now (and I was warning for a long time that Dassault should speed up), to the EF coming back in the game when a new government is in power. In Brazil the president, the defence minister openly supported the Rafale, but then the election came and a nearly fixed deal went into new evaluation and now even to a major blow for Dassault. I really don't want the same to happen in India too, at least unless the offer for India is more favourable and the longer the selection takes, the better for the EF.


To be fair sir, the Brazil examine is pretty irrelevant in this case. India is not Brazil and vice versa. The procurement in Brazil turned VERY political and the selection process seemed to be constantly changing the goal posts and different frontrunner for always fluctuating, The MMRCA selection had next to no political consideration from day 1 (RFIs) to now (commercial negotiations). There were no favourites, there were no back deals, the contenders were judged on merit and then price (L1/L2).

As you yourself have pointed out- allocations have been made for the next fiscal year to get such deals signed so I don't see elections changing much. India has matured on this front to be fair, Antony (as much as I hate agreeing with him on anything) when he says defence deals in India are largely free from political interference. I am pretty sure Modi or whomever has little interest in getting involved in defence matter and especially these sort of high profile deals. For one he's not going to want to pi$$ off the IAF who have been pressing for these birds for a long long time and desperately need them. If Modi even considers a change of direction the IAF, I am very confident, will set him straight. Up until now all the MMRCA work has been done very professionally and throughly just to avoid any sort of back tracking or cause to cancel the deal- there i very little grounds for just cancelling the deal and gifting it to the EFT. I am actually quite confident the deal will be signed by mid-2014.


And I spoke to a friend of mine who works for a firm in the EFT consortium (not directly involved in the EFT project but pretty clued up on company matter as a whole especially pertaining to India) and he says that all this talk is quite "silly" and that the confidence the EFT players had about 1 year ago in getting back into the race has all but gone. Any comments that come out are PR showmanship and for appearances more than anything (especially where the UK govt is concerned) this is the line they HAVE to take i.e. "we are ready to step in blah blah blah".... the EFT guys seem all to aware of the fact that this one has all but got away from them. They are not expecting any phone calls from the MoD on this front. In fact the dedicated EFT sales team they had in India has been disbanded and the members relocated to other projects or other parts of the world so I doubt the EFT consortium has even done as much work on revising a bid as you'd have hoped @sancho.


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## SpArK

*Rafale: the list of Indian industrial partners takes shape*
By Elodie Vallerey - Updated February 19, 2014 at 24:01 - PublishedFebruary 19, 2014 at 8:20




Aerospace - Defense , Defense , Rafale , Dassault Aviation , India





© Dassault Aviation

According to Europe 1 website on February 19, citing the Delegate General for Armaments, the list of Indian subcontractors would be collected and schedule a signature will take shape in the context of exclusive negotiations between the Indian state and Dassault Aviation for the purchase of Rafale fighter.

On the occasion of the 2013 balance sheet activities of the Directorate General of Armaments, was a topic on everyone's lips: the sale of Rafale to India .

And very discreet Delegate General for Armaments Laurent Collet-Billon have missed some information about the signing of the contract between India and the French Dassault Aviation , which provides for the sale of 126 Rafale fighter jets to New Delhi.


_"*The partner identification phase is completed, so there is an agreement between Dassault and its main industrial partner of India, which is HAL (Hindustan Aeronautics Ld, ed.) In the coming weeks, the discussions on technical and industrial will be completed "*_* , said Laurent Collet-Billon*, reports the website of Europe 1 on February 19.

_"I can not give you very specific date (the final signing of the contract, ie), I hope it will be before the end of the year. Now the important thing is not to say that it will in December 2014 the key is to see, at some point in 2014 or early 2015, that the contract exists and is implemented "_ , he has said Europe 1, adding that it was _"useless to put excessive pressure, and also likely to be ineffective, the Indian government and its administration"_ .



Rafale : la liste des partenaires industriels indiens prend forme - Aéronautique - Défense

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## kurup

MMRCA deal will materialise soon: Antony





Defence Minister A.K. Antony said negotiations to calculate "life-cycle cost" in the purchase of the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) were not settled yet but he was hopeful that the contract will materialse in the coming fiscal.

Talking to media persons at Defexpo '14 here, Antony denied there was any delay in concluding the MMRCA deal.

Antony said there were some complaints about the procedure to calculate life-cycle cost. "That's still not settled... (But) that is not affecting the process," he said.

The minister said that before taking the matter to the Cabinet Committee on Security, the defence ministry wanted clear cut answers on life-cycle cost of the combat aircraft.

"We do not want to shortcut the procedures," Antony said.

He said the ministry has already spent 92 percent of its capital budget for 2013-14 fiscal and there was no money this year for new projects.

"Major procurements are humanly possible only in next financial year," Antony said.

"(I hope) MMRCA will materialise next year," he said.

French firm Dassault Aviation bagged in 2012 the $10 billion deal for purchase of 126 Rafale medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA).

Officials said the MMRCA deal is "complicated" and the contract has "technicalities and legal issues".

Defence News - MMRCA deal will materialise soon: Antony


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## kurup

IAF's take on bid for medium multi-role combat aircraft





The Air Force has told a parliamentary committee that it could have bid for F-22 or B-2 aircraft in its quest for Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) but decided against them as both are among the costliest planes which they did not need.

"We do not spend much money in getting what we want. Currently, we could have bid for F-22 or B-2 which are one of the costliest aircraft. We do not need that," a representative of Air Force told the Standing Committee on Defence, according to the committee's report.

The Air Force argued they keep in mind the firepower of their adversaries in the northern front and their national objectives according to what the government wants them to do and then they decided on these aircraft.

The detailed reply from the Air Force came after the Committee sought to know how they arrived at a decision to buy MMRCA of such specifications and type of aircraft which would suit the country.

India had announced in 2012 that Dassault Rafale of France had won the competition due to its lower life-cycle cost. The negotiation for the procurement of 126 Rafale aircraft is now under process.

The Air Force also informed the committee that the design of Light Combat Aircraft is Indian but the components which are being installed are not all Indian.

"We have a large number of components which are being obtained from foreign sources because we do not have the capacity or the capability to manufacture them in India as of now. The delivery of LCA is likely to commence from the middle of this year," they told the Committee.

Defence News - IAF's take on bid for medium multi-role combat aircraft

I hope they are kidding ....


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## Abingdonboy

kurup said:


> I hope they are kidding ....


This seems like terrible paraphrasing.


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## Yzd Khalifa

Abingdonboy said:


> This seems like terrible paraphrasing.


Military leaders as always, talk big - in all countries -


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## Abingdonboy

Yzd Khalifa said:


> Military leaders as always, talk big - in all countries -


They've got budgets to secure (in democracies) and politicians are often so clueless that it requires such talk to make them listen.


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## proud_indian

Yzd Khalifa said:


> Military leaders as always, *talk big* - in all countries -



f-22, b-2 seriously.......


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## Yzd Khalifa

Abingdonboy said:


> They've got budgets to secure (in democracies) and politicians are often so clueless that it requires such talk to make them listen.



I don't think securing budgets is always connected to particular system of governance, otherwise China wouldn't have made it this far, same goes to the USSR. 

According to India's FM the Rafale deal was called off till last year as there is no money left in the safe, isn't that some sort of contradiction?



proud_indian said:


> f-22, b-2 seriously.......


Don't you think


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## Kloitra

proud_indian said:


> f-22, b-2 seriously.......



I think it is a badly worded statement that says we didn't go for the best, but what suits us economically and fulfil our needs.

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## Abingdonboy

Yzd Khalifa said:


> According to India's FM the Rafale deal was called off till last year as there is no money left in the safe, isn't that some sort of contradiction?


Not quite, the deal isn't ready to be signed- the talks are still on and all the multiple aspects of this deal are yet to be agreed upon by the two sides. With infinite budgetary allocation the deal STILL wouldn't have been signed this fiscal year. It will be signed sometime in mid-2014 once the elections are over and the talks have come to an end and everyone is happy.


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## Yzd Khalifa

Kloitra said:


> I think it is a badly worded statement that says we didn't go for the best, but what suits us economically and fulfil our needs.



Both are equally fine. But to assume that India is willing to buy a $750 million bomber, and then it doesn't, just because she doesn't feel like it is utterly insane = \ ..



Abingdonboy said:


> Not quite, the deal isn't ready to be signed- the talks are still on and all the multiple aspects of this deal are yet to be agreed upon by the two sides. With infinite budgetary allocation the deal STILL wouldn't have been signed this fiscal year. It will be signed sometime in mid-2014 once the elections are over and the talks have come to an end and everyone is happy.



Agreed, but here it says there is no money left: 
No money, India delays purchase of Rafale fighters - Hindustan Times


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## Kloitra

Yzd Khalifa said:


> Both are equally fine. But to assume that India is willing to buy a $750 million bomber, and then it doesn't, just because she doesn't feel like it is utterly insane = \ ..



The real meaning is lost in translation it seems! They say it clearly though, that it is not economically possible. Its more like them telling the govt that we have the authority to bid for the costliest thing available. (Economy, seller's approval all aside) We have the authority but we consider the economy. Probably because someone raised a question regarding Rafale being costly. They said its not costliest, we could have demanded costlier, but we didn't. We understand the economy. We just want one that fulfils our need in affordable fashion.



> Agreed, but here it says there is no money left:
> No money, India delays purchase of Rafale fighters - Hindustan Times



It is a complicated matter. Govt allocated a certain budget for defence, based on certain prediction. That budget was used up completely due to unforeseen circumstances. Allocating additional budget now is more of bureaucratic problem than economic. Even if they have tonnes of free money, if they do allot more, they would be questioned. No politician would want to put his hand in that bee's nest. Indian red tape is not a hurdle to be overlooked.

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## SRP

Yzd Khalifa said:


> Agreed, but here it says there is no money left:
> No money, India delays purchase of Rafale fighters - Hindustan Times



No money left for this fiscal year i.e april 2013- march 2014. Next fiscal year will start from april 2014.


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## Yzd Khalifa

Thanks for taking time replying back to me, I appreciate it. 



Kloitra said:


> The real meaning is lost in translation it seems! They say it clearly though, that it is not economically possible. Its more like them telling the govt that we have the authority to bid for the costliest thing available. (Economy, seller's approval all aside) We have the authority but we consider the economy. Probably because someone raised a question regarding Rafale being costly. They said its not costliest, we could have demanded costlier, but we didn't. We understand the economy. We just want one that fulfils our need in affordable fashion.
> 
> 
> 
> It is a complicated matter. Govt allocated a certain budget for defence, based on certain prediction. That budget was used up completely due to unforeseen circumstances. Allocating additional budget now is more of bureaucratic problem than economic. Even if they have tonnes of free money, if they do allot more, they would be questioned. No politician would want to put his hand in that bee's nest. Indian red tape is not a hurdle to be overlooked.

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## Abingdonboy

Yzd Khalifa said:


> Both are equally fine. But to assume that India is willing to buy a $750 million bomber, and then it doesn't, just because she doesn't feel like it is utterly insane = \ ..
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed, but here it says there is no money left:
> No money, India delays purchase of Rafale fighters - Hindustan Times


It's BS spin by the Indian media. The fact is the Rafale WAS budgeted for in the FY2013-14 (the initial payment) but when it became clear the Rafale deal was NOWHERE near ready to be signed in the current fiscal the MoD allocated these funds elsewhere for other procurements and to cover other costs. The simple fact of the matter is the deal was not ready to be signed and THAT is why it wasn't secured this fiscal not anything to do with financing, now if the deal wasn't ready to be signed dhow could it be done? Indian media at their best!!

The Fin Min has said there will be funds for the Rafale next fiscal and the talks will be comepleted soon so it will be signed sometime in 2014.


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## kurup

*Dassault Aviation Head Arrested , Will it effect India’s Mmrca !!!*







Serge Dassault, who heads Dassault Aviation, was taken into custody Wednesday for allegedly buying votes in Corbeil-Essonnes where he was formerly mayor.Dassault in 1998 received a two-year suspended prison sentence in Belgium for bribing members of the Socialist Party to win a helicopter deal.

Dassault’s Rafale aircraft won the Indian MMRCA contract in 2012, its first foreign fighter aircraft sale and the company is currently vying to supply jets to the UAE. It will be interesting to see how India will view Dassault’s latest trouble with the law.While there is no direct link between Serge Dassault’s present and past brushes with the law and bids for military and civilian aircraft contracts abroad, it could be hugely embarrassing for India if Serge Dassault’s questionable ethics dominate world headlines.

New Delhi maintains zero tolerance to corruption in defence procurement and recently disbanded a helicopter contract with AgustaWestland merely on allegations of bribery without the outcome an investigation in India and Italy.

Speculation was rife in the past year that the future of the defense side of Dassault could form part of a bigger consolidation with either Thales or Safran. However, the current status of this proposal remains unclear.According to reports, the 88-year-old Dassault is “accused of running the suburb like a mafia don” and is currently is being questioned in the western Paris suburb of Nanterre.

The move comes a week after Dassault’s parliamentary immunity was lifted, according to the Associated Press.Dassault is suspected of “operating an extensive system of vote buying which influenced the outcome of three mayoral elections in Corbeil in 2008, 2009 and 2010, which were won either by Dassault or by his successor and close associate Jean-Pierre Bechter,” the report adds.

The vote-buying inquiry is connected to two shootings (considered to be attempted murder by the police) which took place is Corbeil.”I can prove my total innocence in these so-called buying of votes, accusations that have been invented by my political adversaries,” Dassault was quoted as saying. “I am ready to cross this step”.

Investigating judges are focusing on huge sums of money transferred between France and Lebanon, including one totalling €18m, which they suspect could have been used to buy votes. Of this sum, about €3m was sent back to France, according to The Guardian.

As well as the alleged vote buying, Dassault could be charged with money laundering and misuse of public assets — sufficiently serious crimes to raise the possibility of a prison term, the report said.

Dassault Aviation Head Arrested , Will it effect India’s Mmrca !!! | idrw.org


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## dbc

^
No biggie. Vote buying, bribing and murder that's just another day in the office for Indian politicians.


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## PARIKRAMA

well fact is whichever party comes to power will have such cases against few of its own members.. so m sure its nth extraordinary for them.....
IDRW is good.. soon it will overtake India TV for sure !!


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## Manvantaratruti

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> ^
> No biggie. Vote buying, bribing and murder that's just another day in the office for Indian politicians.



LOL.....are you saying that they are not standard operation procedures for American politicians ?

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## dbc

Manvantaratruti said:


> LOL.....are you saying that they are not standard operation procedures for American politicians ?



Is the US buying fighters from Dassault? I didn't think so, try to stay on topic.


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## Armstrong

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Is the US buying fighters from Dassault? I didn't think so, try to stay on topic.



*DBChoc Sister* - Whats up ?  

Hows our little niece ? 

A question, if you will - Is Dassault or even the manufacturers of Typhoon as desperate for a sale as some posters make them out to be that unless a major sale (read - MMRCA) isn't made they'd go broke or is this a wrong assessment of how the aviation & by extension the military aviation industry works ?


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## dbc

Armstrong said:


> *DBChoc Sister* - Whats up ?
> 
> Hows our little niece ?
> 
> A question, if you will - Is Dassault or even the manufacturers of Typhoon as desperate for a sale as some posters make them out to be that unless a major sale (read - MMRCA) isn't made they'd go broke or is this a wrong assessment of how the aviation & by extension the military aviation industry works ?



She is fine except for the constant running nose from allergies. 

The French state yes, but Dassault is in no way desperate. Their revenue is first from business jets and then software followed by the Rafale. Future prospects for the Rafale, Super Hornet or Typhoon does not look promising.
I think the Typhoon just got a life line from the Saudi's more orders from the GCC is likely to follow.
How many will depend on when the US makes the F-35 available to the middle east?

Personally, I believe the MMRCA is now irrelevant. The Indians should consider focusing on LCA, FGFA and AMCA perhaps tie up with the majors (Airbus / Boeing) to fast track LCA production to quickly get squadron numbers up.

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## Manvantaratruti

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Is the US buying fighters from Dassault? I didn't think so, try to stay on topic.



So how is your supremacist opinion of Indian politician relevant to the topic at hand . You are in no position to comment on Indian politician when your own politicians bribe, kill and buy votes both local and Internationally . 

Now quit your comedy routine and stick to the topic.

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## illusion8

Armstrong said:


> A question, if you will - Is Dassault or even the manufacturers of Typhoon as desperate for a sale as some posters make them out to be that unless a major sale (read - MMRCA) isn't made they'd go broke or is this a wrong assessment of how the aviation & by extension the military aviation industry works ?



The rafale program has costed 56 billion till date with lots more research to be done yet, orders are a necessity for the program to continue for the development funds keep flowing in. Losing out on orders does not bode well for future fighter competitions too. A long term bulk buyer is a guaranteed source of decades of funds pouring in to keep the program alive.

Lack of orders kills the fund flow, kills the investor base and also degrades the research and the product.


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## SpArK




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## Taygibay

LOL @ the above, what a piece of crap! A- Serge Dassault has left the company in 2000. B-There was then Charles Edelstenne and the present boss is Eric Trappier. C-Serge Dassault remains on the Administration board since major share owners but so do his wife Nicole & son Olivier ( the real future of the family ) and both CEOs mentioned earlier amongst others? D- Serge Dassault is being investigated for his political involvement not industrial one ( about which E- Dassault never made helicopters so that the last piece (dis)credited to the Guardian is ridiculous.

Maybe most importantly though, Serge Dassault is an idiot with ultra-right wing ideas ( who once said, only rich retired folks should be MPs ) which has not affected the company that is Dassault Aviation in the past and should not in the future either.
What strikes me though is that both Serge and Swamy are more trouble than help for either governments!

All very sad. Good day all, Tay.


----------



## janon

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> ^
> No biggie. Vote buying, bribing and murder that's just another day in the office for Indian politicians.


The news item was about vote buying and bribing in France, not India. Contrary to your supercilious assertion, vote buying is NOT common in India, and the one or two times it happened in recent times, it became a major scandal. It is no more common in India than it is in your country, so please shed this holier-than-thou attitude. Discard this notion that democratic functioning is a priviledge of the west.

Yes I know this is off topic, but your unnecessary one liner was...well, unnecessary.


----------



## godofwar

janon said:


> The news item was about vote buying and bribing in France, not India. Contrary to your supercilious assertion, vote buying is NOT common in India, and the one or two times it happened in recent times, it became a major scandal. It is no more common in India than it is in your country, so please shed this holier-than-thou attitude. Discard this notion that democratic functioning is a priviledge of the west.
> 
> Yes I know this is off topic, but your unnecessary one liner was...well, unnecessary.



Negative rating incoming from Death by chocolate


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## janon

godofwar said:


> Negative rating incoming from Death by chocolate


If so, I'll wear it as a badge of honor, like the 'balidan badge'. I see that @Manvantaratruti has already taken two for the nation. We can't let somebody badmouth our democratic credentials and go unanswered, can we? It's the one societal accomplishment at which we can say we are as good as anybody else. India is not like many other brown skinned countries where democracy hasn't flourished, and electoral fraud is rampant. The will of the people reigns supreme here.

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## godofwar

janon said:


> If so, I'll wear it as a badge of honor, like the 'balidan badge'. Can't let somebody badmouth our democratic credentials and go unanswered, can we? It's the one social accomplishment that we can say we are as good as anybody else. India is not like many other brown skinned countries where democracy hasn't flourised, and electoral fraudd is rampant.



Just my way of noting how stupid it is to let some spiteful, peevish people do as they please on this forum


----------



## kurup

*Come clean on ties with Agusta: India to Dassault*







With the defence ministry all set to blacklist Agusta-Westland-Finmeccanica for the VVIP helicopter bribery scandal, it has asked French aircraft manufacturer Dassault to clarify whether the Anglo-Italian chopper company was supplying parts for its Rafale medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) slated to be acquired by India at the cost of $20 billion.

South Block sources said the ministry wanted to seek prior clarification from Dassault during the negotiation stage as it did not want to face legal or operational hurdles for spare parts after the 126-aircraft deal had been signed.“Dassault has been asked whether Agusta-Westland-Finmeccanica was original equipment manufacturer for the Rafale MMRCA as there were reports on the same. We have pointed out to Dassault that India was involved in litigation with the Anglo-Italian company over charges of bribery in the 12 VVIP helicopter purchase scandal,” said a senior defence ministry official. When contacted, an Indian representative of Dassault said on condition of anonymity that Rafale was 100% French and the helicopter company was not part of original equipment supplier for the MMRCA.While defence minister AK Antony is awaiting a CBI report on the VVIP helicopter scandal before formally blacklisting Agusta-Finmeccanica, there is pressure from within the services to delay the process, as the Anglo-Italian company supplies spare parts for US Apache and Chinook helicopters, which India is seeking to acquire from Washington.
The pressure from the services is quite evident, as the Italian helicopter company was inadvertently invited to Indian Defexpo in Delhi this month. But the fees, running into several crores of rupees, was refunded and invitation withdrawn after the ministry intervened at the highest levels.

“We want Dassault to clarify in writing that the helicopter company has nothing to do with MMRCA as there could be spare parts problems in future as under the rules defence ministry cannot deal with a company mired in bribery allegations in a contract,” said a senior official. The MMRCA deal is still a work in progress and will be signed by the next government.

Come clean on ties with Agusta: India to Dassault | idrw.org


----------



## SpArK

http://www.airframer.com/aircraft_detail.html?model=Dassault_Rafale

Dassault Rafale

Twin turbofan multi mission fighter.

_Recent news releases:_
• _04/04/2012_: Snecma (Safran group) renews its partnership with Manoir Industries
• _13/07/2010_: TITAL GmbH established as supplier for engine manufacturer

See the full news archive for the Dassault Rafale.

This page lists the major suppliers to the Dassault Rafale aircraft program.





*Manufacturer*
Dassault AviationNews

*Suppliers (51 links)*
MaterialsAdhesives (1) Composites (2) Lubricants (1)
ComponentsBearings (1) Electrical Components (1) Electrical/Electronic Connectors (1) Fasteners (3)Mechanical Components (1) Sensors, Transducers & Detectors (2) Structural Components (3)
Airframe SystemsAirframe Assemblies (3) Crew Seating (1) Environmental Systems (2) Fluid Power (1) Landing Assemblies (1) Oxygen Systems & Equipment (1) Safety & Security Systems (2) Weapons Systems (2)
AvionicsAvionic Components (1) Flight and Data Management (1) Imaging and Visual Systems (1)Indicators and Instruments (1) Navigation Aids (Airborne) (1)
Power SystemsAuxiliary Power (1) Electrical Power Systems (1) Engine Components (3) Engines (1) Fuel Systems (2) Power Transmission (1)
ProductionProduction Equipment (1) Tools (2)
TestingTest Equipment (1)

STRUCTILAdhesives: Bonding primers, paste adhesive, structural adhesive films, intumescent films, surfacing films
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Hexcel CompositesCarbon-reinforced Composites: Carbon fibers, structural adhesives, honeycombs, prepregs, sandwich panels and reinforcement fabrics
Magnolia Advanced Materials, Inc.Syntactic Composites: Adhesives, coatings and syntactics
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Orelube CorporationSynthetic Lubricants: Boelube
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Rexnord Industries, LLCBearings: Seals & bearings
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LabinalWire Harnesses: Electrical wiring systems
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HiRel Connectors, Inc.Electrical & Electronic Connectors: Connectors, removal crimp and hermetic solder contacts
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Ateliers De La Hte. GaronneSolid Rivets: Aeronautical rivets; Bolts: Aeronautical bolts; Screws: Aeronautical screws
Avibank Mfg. Inc.Fasteners: Pins, bolts, fasteners & accessories
Ho-Ho-Kus, Inc.Fasteners: Clamps and fasteners, nuts, bolts & screws
Back to top

Rexnord CartrisealMechanical Seals: Contacting & non-contacting face and circumferential seals
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Sagem Défense SécuritéSensors/Transducers: Redundant sensors for fly-by-wire systems
UTC Aerospace Systems, Sensors & Integrated SystemsSensors/Transducers: Pitot probe; ice detectors; air data total air temperature sensors
Back to top

MAP Mecanique Aeronautique PyreneenneAircraft Structural Components:
Precimecan - Caromar GroupPrecision Machined Parts: Landing gear & structural parts
TITAL GmbHNewsMetal & Alloy Castings: Aluminium & titanium investment castings
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MAP Mecanique Aeronautique PyreneenneAircraft & Helicopter Controllers: Flight controls
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Martin Baker Aircraft Co. Ltd.Ejector Seats: Mk.16 F16F zero/zero ejection seat
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TechnofanAir Conditioning Equipment: Valves & fans; cockpit air conditioning system
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Ducommun LaBarge Technologies, Inc.Warning Systems/Equipment: Master caution and warning assemblies
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Thales North America Inc.Electronic Warfare Systems: SPECTRA integrated electronic warfare system operating in electromagnetic, laser and infra-red domains
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ECEControl Panels: Cockpit components & control panels
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Moog Controls (UK)Automatic Flight Control Systems: Primary flight controls
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Thales Optronics (Bury St Edmunds) LimitedAirborne Reconnaissance Infrared: Front sector optronic system
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Sagem Défense SécuritéHelmet-Mounted Displays (HMD): GERFAUT helmet-mounted display & sight
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Sagem Défense SécuritéInertial Components & Systems: SIGMA RL90 ring-laser gyro inertial navigation system (with GPS hybridisation)
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Microturbo S.A.S.Auxiliary Power Units: Rubis 305 APU
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ECEPower Distribution Equipment: Power electrical distribution boxes; power contactors
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Aerotech Herman Nelson, Inc.Engine Preheaters: Portable heaters
MAP Mecanique Aeronautique PyreneenneEngine Housings: Cowling
TITAL GmbHNewsEngine Parts: Titanium components for M88 engine
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Cassidian Test & ServicesNewsAutomated Test Equipment: Automatic test equipment & ground test system

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## Executioner




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## cloud_9

kurup said:


> *Come clean on ties with Agusta: India to Dassault*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> With the defence ministry all set to blacklist Agusta-Westland-Finmeccanica for the VVIP helicopter bribery scandal, it has asked French aircraft manufacturer Dassault to clarify whether the Anglo-Italian chopper company was supplying parts for its Rafale medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) slated to be acquired by India at the cost of $20 billion.
> 
> South Block sources said the ministry wanted to seek prior clarification from Dassault during the negotiation stage as it did not want to face legal or operational hurdles for spare parts after the 126-aircraft deal had been signed.“Dassault has been asked whether Agusta-Westland-Finmeccanica was original equipment manufacturer for the Rafale MMRCA as there were reports on the same. We have pointed out to Dassault that India was involved in litigation with the Anglo-Italian company over charges of bribery in the 12 VVIP helicopter purchase scandal,” said a senior defence ministry official. When contacted, an Indian representative of Dassault said on condition of anonymity that Rafale was 100% French and the helicopter company was not part of original equipment supplier for the MMRCA.While defence minister AK Antony is awaiting a CBI report on the VVIP helicopter scandal before formally blacklisting Agusta-Finmeccanica, there is pressure from within the services to delay the process, as the Anglo-Italian company supplies spare parts for US Apache and Chinook helicopters, which India is seeking to acquire from Washington.
> The pressure from the services is quite evident, as the Italian helicopter company was inadvertently invited to Indian Defexpo in Delhi this month. But the fees, running into several crores of rupees, was refunded and invitation withdrawn after the ministry intervened at the highest levels.
> 
> “We want Dassault to clarify in writing that the helicopter company has nothing to do with MMRCA as there could be spare parts problems in future as under the rules defence ministry cannot deal with a company mired in bribery allegations in a contract,” said a senior official. The MMRCA deal is still a work in progress and will be signed by the next government.
> 
> Come clean on ties with Agusta: India to Dassault | idrw.org



Goverment ministeries are full of idiotic bureaucrats or the so called High Achievers of the Indian society


----------



## Abingdonboy

kurup said:


> *Come clean on ties with Agusta: India to Dassault*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> With the defence ministry all set to blacklist Agusta-Westland-Finmeccanica for the VVIP helicopter bribery scandal, it has asked French aircraft manufacturer Dassault to clarify whether the Anglo-Italian chopper company was supplying parts for its Rafale medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) slated to be acquired by India at the cost of $20 billion.
> 
> South Block sources said the ministry wanted to seek prior clarification from Dassault during the negotiation stage as it did not want to face legal or operational hurdles for spare parts after the 126-aircraft deal had been signed.“Dassault has been asked whether Agusta-Westland-Finmeccanica was original equipment manufacturer for the Rafale MMRCA as there were reports on the same. We have pointed out to Dassault that India was involved in litigation with the Anglo-Italian company over charges of bribery in the 12 VVIP helicopter purchase scandal,” said a senior defence ministry official. When contacted, an Indian representative of Dassault said on condition of anonymity that Rafale was 100% French and the helicopter company was not part of original equipment supplier for the MMRCA.While defence minister AK Antony is awaiting a CBI report on the VVIP helicopter scandal before formally blacklisting Agusta-Finmeccanica, there is pressure from within the services to delay the process, as the Anglo-Italian company supplies spare parts for US Apache and Chinook helicopters, which India is seeking to acquire from Washington.
> The pressure from the services is quite evident, as the Italian helicopter company was inadvertently invited to Indian Defexpo in Delhi this month. But the fees, running into several crores of rupees, was refunded and invitation withdrawn after the ministry intervened at the highest levels.
> 
> “We want Dassault to clarify in writing that the helicopter company has nothing to do with MMRCA as there could be spare parts problems in future as under the rules defence ministry cannot deal with a company mired in bribery allegations in a contract,” said a senior official. The MMRCA deal is still a work in progress and will be signed by the next government.
> 
> Come clean on ties with Agusta: India to Dassault | idrw.org


Didn't IDRW run a story last wee saying the MoD/Antony ad decided to back away from blacklisting AW?!!

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## AsianLion

IAF has lost in high tech 4.5+ Generation jets against China & Pakistan.

India should go for Rafale jets, before it's too late. Too late & political delays means lack of decision making, failure and the French are surely going to increase prices massively.

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## faithfulguy

AsianUnion said:


> IAF has lost in high tech 4.5+ Generation jets against China & Pakistan.
> 
> India should go for Rafale jets, before it's too late. Too late & political delays means lack of decision making, failure and the French are surely going to increase prices massively.



With the collapse of rupee, Indian might not be able to afford anything.

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## Taygibay

Links to Agusta?
http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj146/Metal-Eater-GR/Gigifies/1367993575384_zps9c017241.gif

Shouldn't there be a position, be it an MP or MoD official, dedicated to answer such idiots to prevent them from losing the government's time by asking moronic questions of the sort? In France, it would be the Délégué Général à l'Armement ( Armament General Delegate )'s job!
Biographie du délégué général pour l'armement
He's authorized to answer in Parliamentary commissions and hearings, etc.

But if South Block sources really refer to MoD people, they should be squarely fired for incompetence. No wonder procurements take so long when supposed professionals make such claims?

Sorry for the rant but these every other day *facepalm*news bits are unf......believable!

Good day all, Tay.

P.S. Thanks SpArK for the simple logic answer.

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## Gessler

AsianUnion said:


> IAF has lost in high tech 4.5+ Generation jets against China & Pakistan.



As of date, we are the only one among the 3 (India, Pak, China) to have operational 4.5 gen aircraft
with ESA radars and TVC engines.

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## trident2010

AsianUnion said:


> IAF has lost in high tech 4.5+ Generation jets against China & *Pakistan.*
> 
> India should go for Rafale jets, before it's too late. Too late & political delays means lack of decision making, failure and the French are surely going to increase prices massively.



What PAF has now that IAF did not have 10 years back?

Stop comparing yourself with China. PAF has nothing to show. IAF can ruin PAF with its current inventory in coming 20 years. Its PLAAF we are aiming to counter and thus all the fuss.

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## Abingdonboy

Taygibay said:


> Links to Agusta?
> http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj146/Metal-Eater-GR/Gigifies/1367993575384_zps9c017241.gif
> 
> Shouldn't there be a position, be it an MP or MoD official, dedicated to answer such idiots to prevent them from losing the government's time by asking moronic questions of the sort? In France, it would be the Délégué Général à l'Armement ( Armament General Delegate )'s job!
> Biographie du délégué général pour l'armement
> He's authorized to answer in Parliamentary commissions and hearings, etc.
> 
> But if South Block sources really refer to MoD people, they should be squarely fired for incompetence. No wonder procurements take so long when supposed professionals make such claims?
> 
> Sorry for the rant but these every other day *facepalm*news bits are unf......believable!
> 
> Good day all, Tay.
> 
> P.S. Thanks SpArK for the simple logic answer.


That's just the problem- sheer incompetence and ignorance. It comes from the very top in the MoD too, the Defence Minister is largely ignorant to all such things and is purely interested in keeping his "clean" image and to keep every single defence deal clear of even the HINT of wrong-doing. 9/10,nay-99.99% of the time all these allegations and such turn out to be NOTHING but vested interests sticking their oar in or something similar. End result is purely delay after delay.

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## shuntmaster

*A big step in India's Rafale jet deal with France*
​




File photo: A French Dassault Rafale fighter performs in an air show over Le Bourget airport, north of Paris
New Delhi: The Centre and French aerospace major Dassault have taken a big step forward in the deal for 126 Rafale fighter jets to be supplied to India.

Dassault Aviation and the government's Hindustan Aeronautics Limited or HAL have sealed a work share agreement almost two years after negotiations began - HAL will build 70 per cent of the aircraft, sources said.

India will acquire 18 of the 126 Rafale fighter jets it is buying from France in "fly away" condition, and the rest will be manufactured by HAL.

The final contract, though, is still far from being signed. For one, India's Ministry of Defence has no money in the current financial year that ends this month, for initial payment. Also, general elections are due by May and the final contract will only be signed by the next government, if it chooses to go ahead on the same terms and conditions.

Dassault Aviation had won the contract to supply 126 Medium, multi-role combat aircraft or MMRCA in 2012. The massive contract is pegged anywhere between 12 to 15 billion dollars.

Dassault has had reservations over HAL's capacity to absorb complex technology and wanted to rope in other private sector companies for manufacturing the jets in India. The Defence Ministry, however, told the French company that HAL would remain the lead player.

Sources said the deal is complex and requires both sides to be in sync on commercial factors, logistics and HAL's ability to assemble the Rafale.

For instance, the radar on the Rafale jet is to be manufactured by Bharat-Electronics Ltd (BEL) in Bangalore. The Radome (the protruding snub nose on the aircraft) would, however, be manufactured by HAL at its Hyderabad facility. Dassault wanted clarity on how the two units would coordinate their activities.

Now, HAL has apparently agreed to set up a new facility close to the one that BEL has in Bangalore.

Dassault's officials are simultaneously negotiating with different divisions of HAL based in cities like Lucknow, Nashik, Bangalore and Hyderabad.

The French and Indian governments are also working on an agreement for a sovereign guarantee that Dassault will supply, service and maintain the Rafales over the next 40 years.

This is an important provision in the Indian defence procurement procedure, designed to ensure that manufacturers don't renege on their commitment.


----------



## IND151

India seals Rafale jet deal with French firm | idrw.org

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## ejaz007

*India’s M-MRCA Fighter Competition: “Thank you, HAL”*

*Latest Update:*

*March 2/14: Workshare deal.* Dassault and HAL have reportedly established an initial workshare agreement for Indian Rafales. Dassault will provide the first 18 planes from its own factories in fly-away condition. After that, HAL will be responsible for directing 70% of the work in India, while Dassault remains responsible for 30%.

Negotiations have included industrial coordination, as well as straight workshare. For instance, RBE2-AA AESA radar production will be outsourced to state-owned Bharat-Electronics Ltd (BEL) in Bangalore, while the corresponding radome will be manufactured by HAL. One step toward the agreement involved HAL setting up a new facility close to the one that BEL has in Bangalore, so that issues with radome or radar production won’t create compatibility problems that leave India’s Rafales unable to meet acceptance tests.

Per February revelations, the deal will have to be finalized by whichever government wins India’s coming election. Sources: Indian Express, “India seals Rafale jet deal with French firm” | NDTV, “A big step in India’s Rafale jet deal with France”.

India’s M-MRCA Fighter Competition: “Thank you, HAL”

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## skysthelimit

ejaz007 said:


> RBE2-AA AESA radar production will be outsourced to state-owned Bharat-Electronics Ltd (BEL)



Is this license production, does BEL get the blueprints, source-codes, etc for the AESA Radar?


----------



## halloweene

The Rafale As Canada’s Next Fighter – Part 1 | Ottawa Citizen
The Rafale As Canada’s Next Fighter – Part 2 | Ottawa Citizen
The Rafale As Canada’s Next Fighter – Part 3 | Ottawa Citizen


----------



## Abingdonboy

@halloweene and updates on the Indian Rafale deal? I'm guessing it's now just a waiting game until the next Indian Govt is in power and has settled in?


----------



## jiki

i suppose even if it signed in 3rd qtr of this year we can atleast get the 1st sqrdn in 2017 but now we hav to wt n wtch who gonna be the nxt DM and hoe HAL goona imbibe the TOTs with in nxt decade ...........


----------



## Superboy

halloweene said:


> The Rafale As Canada’s Next Fighter – Part 1 | Ottawa Citizen
> The Rafale As Canada’s Next Fighter – Part 2 | Ottawa Citizen
> The Rafale As Canada’s Next Fighter – Part 3 | Ottawa Citizen




The US will never allow Canada to operate any non American planes. The US even killed Canada's aerospace industry in the 1950s. Australia has a better chance of buying Rafale, since it has used Mirage.


----------



## halloweene

Wait till elections i gues, still i'll be the 13th at Dassalt annual conference, will let you know if anything new...



> The US will never allow Canada to operate any non American planes. The US even killed Canada's aerospace industry in the 1950s. Australia has a better chance of buying Rafale, since it has used Mirage.



You are probably right, but it deserved a small article to inform canadian ppl no?

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## UKBengali

Superboy said:


> The US will never allow Canada to operate any non American planes. The US even killed Canada's aerospace industry in the 1950s. Australia has a better chance of buying Rafale, since it has used Mirage.



Why not?

Last time I checked Canada was an independent country.


----------



## Span

Lol. I guess the diplomatic relationship between US and Canada are the same as Russia and Ukraine (Pre Crimean conflict). It just cannot afford to compromise on its influence on Canada. 

Speaking of the Rafale, you guys think it would be actually signed anywhere soon in the next FY or after the elections? The newly elected MoD (if from a non UPA alliance) and his subordinates/other interested parties will definitely want their share in the deal, eventually leading to further delays and cost over runs. 

And it'd take a herculean effort on the part of HAL to be able to deliver, considering the huge amount of projects they are involved in already.


----------



## Abingdonboy

*Rafale is taking a major step in India*

_Dassault and its local partners Hal signed the agreement for technology transfer. The sale of 126 Rafale is now in the hands of the next government.[...]
"There was an agreement on the division of labor, who does what, how and most importantly who is responsible . It was submitted to the Indian government," says a close source to Les Echos .[...]
This achieved, nothing should happen before the legislative elections of May. It is the government that will emerge from the polls that will decide the fate of this huge contract. A priori, it should think twice before questioning everything that was negotiated by its predecessor. But nothing prohibits it either even if this means to delay signing the contract for several months, especially since the purchasing power of the Indian Ministry of Defence has been reduced._

From:
http://www.lesechos.fr/entreprises-s...?xtor=RSS-2001


----------



## PARIKRAMA

*Dassault Close To A Contract With India's HAL $11 Billion MMRCA Contract: CEO Eric Trappier
*
Dassault may have reached a deal with India’s state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited over the contract to supply 126 Rafale jets.

The aircraft-maker’s CEO Eric Trappier today hinted that its problems regarding manufacture of the Rafale jets in India may have ended.

Negotiations between India and France have been dragging for over two years since the French company was declared the finalist in the $11 billion program to purchase the Rafale fighter planes.

Dassault has had reservations over HAL's capacity to absorb complex technology and wanted to rope in other private sector companies for manufacturing the jets in India. However, New Delhi has always maintained that HAL would remain a lead player.

In a statement about the company’s annual report, Trappier said, "We have effectively a contract with HAL,” and added, “We have taken a step to a new level" with regards to finalizing the contract with Indi*a.

Offset hurdles have been the major road block to signing the deal. In 2013, Dassault wrote to the Indian MoD demanding it be given the overall responsibility of the project and clearly identify HALs role.

Despite the ministry asserting that HAL would act as the project’s ‘lead-integrator’ as per the terms of the RFI issued in 2007, Dassault in its letter insisted that it be given the freedom to decide on the quantum of work to be shared between companies.
*
According to the original terms, 18 of the 126 planes are to be purchased directly from Dassault, while HAL will manufacture the other 108 under a licence at an upcoming facility in Bangalore. Meanwhile, Dassault Aviation reported on Thursday a profit slump for 2013. Net profit for the year fell 8.5 percent to 459.45 million euros ($641 million), but total orders intake rose 25 percent to 4.16 billion. Defence orders made up just 1.26 billion euros in 2013, up from 793 million euros in 2012.

*Dassault Close To A Contract With India's HAL $11 Billion MMRCA Contract: CEO Eric Trappier*

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## halloweene

Funny : you release news before me as Mr Trappier was answering my question 
All this delay for signing the contract was due to workshare issues, isn't it? So...


Yes workshare is established between HAL and Dassault. There will be two supply chain, and the industrial meccano is built in every details, all companies etc. etc. identified and in contact. Both French and Indian ministires were told so. (Reading between lines, technical contracts are wrapped up). 
"OFF" information : Dassault isn't concerned by indian elections as both ruling and opposition parties agree on MMRCA.

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## kaykay

halloweene said:


> Funny : you release news before me as Mr Trappier was answering my question
> All this delay for signing the contract was due to workshare issues, isn't it? So...
> 
> 
> Yes workshare is established between HAL and Dassault. There will be two supply chain, and the industrial meccano is built in every details, all companies etc. etc. identified and in contact. Both French and Indian ministires were told so. (Reading between lines, technical contracts are wrapped up).
> "OFF" information : Dassault isn't concerned by indian elections as both ruling and opposition parties agree on MMRCA.


Good development. I hope they will sign it as soon as elections are over.


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## jiki

halloweene said:


> Funny : you release news before me as Mr Trappier was answering my question
> All this delay for signing the contract was due to workshare issues, isn't it? So...
> 
> 
> Yes workshare is established between HAL and Dassault. There will be two supply chain, and the industrial meccano is built in every details, all companies etc. etc. identified and in contact. Both French and Indian ministires were told so. (Reading between lines, technical contracts are wrapped up).
> "OFF" information : Dassault isn't concerned by indian elections as both ruling and opposition parties agree on MMRCA.


Hey gr888 then but can u confirm that election part, will it be a smooth transition if NDA (now in opposition) will come to power.... but from my side i hope so


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## kaykay

jiki said:


> Hey gr888 then but can u confirm that election part, will it be a smooth transition if NDA (now in opposition) will come to power.... but from my side i hope so


why not? Most importantly, It has more to do with Airforce and they are forcing it to be sign as soon as possible. I am sure NDA will understand their need.


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## halloweene

What i can confirm is a "source close to the negociations" told me there was an agreement between indian parties to proceed on MMRCA whatever is the result of elections.
Which is already more than i expected as an answer...
That very same source was less optimistic last summer in Le Bourget about the technical parts of the contract.

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## rockstarIN

@Abingdonboy @halloweene 

Will India get the full technical know how of ASEA as well as Spectra?


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## halloweene

Digging into that. But as they are a highly sensitive subject here, you imagine how hard it can be hard to get details about export...

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## kurup

*Dassault says profits slump, but closer to India fighter deal*







France’s Dassault Aviation reported on Thursday a profit slump for 2013, but said it was moving closer to sealing a major fighter jet contract with India.Net profit for the year fell 8.5 percent to 459.45 million euros ($641 million), but total orders intake rose 25 percent to 4.16 billion.

During the year, it recorded 64 orders for its Falcon private jets, up from 58 in 2012.Defence orders made up just 1.26 billion euros in 2013, up from 793 million euros in 2012.

However the group is seeking to significantly boost its defence segment, as it is trying to seal a deal with India worth $12 billion.

The two parties began exclusive negotiations in January 2012 on the sale of 126 Rafale fighter jets, some 108 of which are to be built in India.

On Thursday, the group’s chief executive Eric Trappier suggested that the company was coming closer to a deal.

“We have taken a step to a new level” with regards to finalising the contract, he said.

“We have effectively a contract with HAL” — India’s state-owned group HAL on manufacturing the Rafales in India, said Trappier.

Separately, European aerospace giant Airbus forecast on Thursday that India would have massive demand for new airliners in the next two decades.

The group said the country’s airlines along would require 1,290 new planes over the period, a potential market worth $190 billion.

Dassault says profits slump, but closer to India fighter deal | idrw.org


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## kurup

Dassault Agrees Rafale Workshare With India






Dassault Aviation has reached a firm agreement with India’s Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) over workshare for the 126 Rafale fighters that the country has agreed to buy. The agreement was confirmed on Thursday at Dassault’s annual financial results press conference in Paris by CEO Eric Trappier. The agreement covers the general configuration of the aircraft, the technology transfers and the detailed workshare between the two partners and their subcontractors. Also, it clarifies the mechanism for handling warranties, said Trappier.

“It’s a major step before signing the final contract,” said Trappier, noting that this landmark could come in “the next weeks or months.” The contract is estimated to be worth between $10- and $15 billion, but that has not been confirmed by Dassault.

Out of the 126 Rafales, 18 will be built in France in the Dassault Aviation facilities. The next 106 fighters will be built in India with a stepped transfer of responsibilities. The technology transfers account for up to 50 percent of the value of the contract. Dassault estimates that it would take roughly three-and-a-half years to deliver the first Indian Rafale.

Trappier also reported that India is “not the sole country where we could sell Rafale.” Dassault has answered an RFI from Canada, a country that, according to the Dassault CEO, is studying canceling its F-35 JSF purchase because of the high cost of the Lockheed Martin fighter. Dassault is in preliminary talks with Canadian manufacturers so as to be ready to sign an industrial agreement if Canada decides to cancel its 65-aircraft F-35 purchase. “It’s challenging, but if Canada cancels, Rafale will be in the race for sure,” he said.

Dassault is cautious about other possible export markets for the Rafale. In the United Arab Emirates, talks on a 60-Rafale purchase are proceeding with a “new roadmap,” according to Trappier, who declined to comment further. Dassault Aviation has answered the RFI issued by Qatar. “We are confident because Qatar is an old partner for Dassault; it has 12 Mirage 2000-5s,” said Trappier, but he declined to comment on a possible purchase of the Rafale by Malaysia, except to note that Dassault has made a proposal based on the supply of 18 aircraft.

Last year, Dassault delivered 11 Rafales to French forces, and a similar number is scheduled for this year. Deliveries are now to the latest F3R standard, which includes the Thales AESA radar and the capacity to fire the Meteor missile, as certified by the DGA (Délégation Générale à l’Armement).

Regarding the Neuron UCAV demonstrator, Dassault has undertaken radar cross-section measurements “with success,” said Trappier, and made approximately 20 test flights, mainly in France. This year, another 20 test flights are scheduled to open up the flight envelope.

Defence News - Dassault Agrees Rafale Workshare With India


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## halloweene

There are some mistakes in the article. Trappier stated that Dassault is not in preliminary talks with canadian manufactureres as officially Canada is still commited to F-35. And delivered Rafales atm aren't F3R (2018 std software), but tranche 4. Nvm.
The 20 nEUROn test flights are since october (after rcs measurements), and flights should continue at the same rythm tis year.


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## rockstarIN

halloweene said:


> There are some mistakes in the article. Trappier stated that Dassault is not in preliminary talks with canadian manufactureres as officially Canada is still commited to F-35. And delivered Rafales atm aren't F3R (2018 std software), but tranche 4. Nvm.
> The 20 nEUROn test flights are since october (after rcs measurements), and flights should continue at the same rythm tis year.




The article says production rate is 11 jet per year. So the first 16 air craft will come out of the same production line for India?

Is there any plan to increase the production rate?


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## halloweene

It is possible to increase it, but would not be interesting to start a ramping up for the first 18 indian aircrafts. In fact it is in "Loi de Programmation Militaire" to put production of french Rafales "on hold" in order to produce indian ones. (which both allow a constant rythm and spending cutw for french forces).

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## trident2010

Hope we see this deal signed after the new government is elected.


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## SpArK



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## sancho

Did anything important happend in the last 5 weeks?


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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> Did anything important happend in the last 5 weeks?


Not really, talk is the work share agreement between HAL and Dassualt has been agreed, now it's for the next GoI to sign the deal- Dassualt seems very confident about clinching with the next GoI in 2014.

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## Sergi

sancho said:


> Did anything important happend in the last 5 weeks?


Important or not you decide. Now we all know than its impossible to sign the contract before August.

-It will take June to form new govt.
- new cabinate will form in middle of June.
- new DM will take minimum one month to understand things if the new GOI still think they want to go with MMRCA and Dassualt has agreed on everything.



Abingdonboy said:


> Not really, talk is the work share agreement between HAL and Dassualt has been agreed, now it's for the next GoI to sign the deal- Dassualt seems very confident about clinching with the next GoI in 2014.


May God bless them if they are confidant !!!!!! They themselves put the deal in tailspin. It would go any way.

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## GURU DUTT

rockstarIN said:


> @Abingdonboy @halloweene
> 
> Will India get the full technical know how of ASEA as well as Spectra?


no i dont think so


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## he-man

Arey why are ppl being so naive to expect the aesa tech?


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## Indus Falcon

he-man said:


> Arey why are ppl being so naive to expect the aesa tech?



Halwa hai na !!


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## he-man

Although not a supporter of rafale due to cost:benefit ratio being too high I do realise we have no option left now

Antony has single handedly screwed us whether u agree or not


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## rockstarIN

GURU DUTT said:


> no i dont think so



Why not?


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## he-man

rockstarIN said:


> @Abingdonboy @halloweene
> 
> Will India get the full technical know how of ASEA as well as Spectra?



We will get only source codes for radar to integrate the weapons of our choice.

Nothing of importance thats why I wanted reliance to get this contract.its just a screwdriver job


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## he-man

rockstarIN said:


> Why not?


Because thats how it always is
If we get the knndwledge we may not order stuff in future and manufacture on our own

We will directly get sensitive components from france and assemble it here


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## he-man

Abu Nasar said:


> Halwa hai na !!


rolleyes:


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## rockstarIN

he-man said:


> We will get only source codes for radar to integrate the weapons of our choice.
> 
> Nothing of importance thats why I wanted reliance to get this contract.its just a screwdriver job



Thats the deal I believe, else whats there for ToT.


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## he-man

rockstarIN said:


> Thats the deal I believe, else whats there for ToT.


We gain nothing in reality
Should have opted for su-35 earlier and put the money saved on amca.

But that was in 2009-10,now we have no option


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## Manvantaratruti

he-man said:


> We will get only source codes for radar to integrate the weapons of our choice.
> 
> Nothing of importance thats why I wanted reliance to get this contract.its just a screwdriver job



If Reliance had got the contract it would have been even more of a screw driver job. HAL is in a position to negotiate HARD. Reliance is NOT.


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## he-man

Manvantaratruti said:


> If Reliance had got the contract it would have been even more of a screw driver job. HAL is in a position to negotiate HARD. Reliance is NOT.



Negotiate what?
Hal needs to concentrate on mki,tejas and other stuff

Its a waste of time for them and we lost an excellent opportunity for diversification


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## Manvantaratruti

he-man said:


> Negotiate what?
> Hal needs to concentrate on mki,tejas and other stuff
> 
> Its a waste of time for them and we lost an excellent opportunity for diversification



You opinion on what HAL needs to focus on is irrelevant and diversification cannot be the objective of such an important program like Rafale. 

Negotiate everything, price, tech specs, work share, offset share, maintenance, quality etc.......


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## Mav3rick

Doesn't this deal include ToT, to everything? Such as Engines, Avionics, Radars, Jammers etc,???


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## he-man

Manvantaratruti said:


> You opinion on what HAL needs to focus on is irrelevant and diversification cannot be the objective of such an important program like Rafale.
> 
> Negotiate everything, price, tech specs, work share, offset share, maintenance, quality etc.......



Ur opinion is just like our planning.

Not up to the mark and we are bound to suffer again for faulty planning.no wonder we are where we are.


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## he-man

Mav3rick said:


> Doesn't this deal include ToT, to everything? Such as Engines, Avionics, Radars, Jammers etc,???



Lol
We get nothing relevant under tot
Tot just means local manufacture of some parts.

Sensitive parts will be imported directly from france and just assembled here


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## Manvantaratruti

he-man said:


> Ur opinion is just like our planning.
> Not up to the mark and we are bound to suffer again for faulty planning.no wonder we are where we are.



LOL.......how lucky that I get to be judged by you  ...... now go away and play in the grass for some more time.


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## he-man

Manvantaratruti said:


> LOL.......how lucky that I get to be judged by you  ...... now go away and play in the grass for some more time.



Don't make stupid comments in a defence forum,talk on the said topic

I have no interest in personal attacks


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## Manvantaratruti

he-man said:


> Don't make stupid comments in a defence forum,talk on the said topic
> 
> I have no interest in personal attacks



Ever though of taking your own advice ?


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## he-man

Manvantaratruti said:


> Ever though of taking your own advice ?



Ya even I got a bit aggressive.sorry for that


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## GURU DUTT

rockstarIN said:


> Why not?


cause nobody will give there best tech just because they need to sell there products


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## Sergi

Dont know if already posted or not. Cant post source.

Two local news-papers in Maharashtra are reporting *in January MOD has refused to sign the interim deal with France to assure the purchase of billions of dollars worth 126 jets. *France wanted the assurance for the continuety of neotiations if the new govt come to office. MOD refused to sign the interim deal as its still in negotiations phase.


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## he-man

Sergi said:


> Dont know if already posted or not. Cant post source.
> 
> Two local news-papers in Maharashtra are reporting *in January MOD has refused to sign the interim deal with France to assure the purchase of billions of dollars worth 126 jets. *France wanted the assurance for the continuety of neotiations if the new govt come to office. MOD refused to sign the interim deal as its still in negotiations phase.



Yup already posted


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## sancho

GURU DUTT said:


> cause nobody will give there best tech just because they need to sell there products



That's why they won't share everything of their EWS, but radar ToT and engine ToT was part of the requirements of the competition and that will be part for sure. That's most likely even the reason why only Rafale and EF were shortlisted, since they can provide the most ToT and offsets in return and that had a high priority for MoD.
Not to mention that transfer of critical techs in one of the reason why we often decide for French or European arms and techs, instead of US or others.

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## he-man

sancho said:


> That's why they won't share everything of their EWS, but radar ToT and engine ToT was part of the requirements of the competition and that will be part for sure. That's most likely even the reason why only Rafale and EF were shortlisted, since they can provide the most ToT and offsets in return and that had a high priority for MoD.
> Not to mention that transfer of critical techs in one of the reason why we often decide for French or European arms and techs, instead of US or others.



The question here is the definition of tot.


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## Sergi

@sancho @Abingdonboy @sandy_3126
I get a wind of the backup plan in case MMRCA failed to materialise
The source is reliable still its very hard to process.

Plan is to buy 60/80 PAK-FA off shelf and speed up LCA MK-2 and AMCA .
According to source the Russians have promised to consider the request.

What you guies think ??? BS or is it feasible ??? I definalty like it though


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## he-man

Sergi said:


> @sancho @Abingdonboy @sandy_3126
> I get a wind of the backup plan in case MMRCA failed to materialise
> The source is reliable still its very hard to process.
> 
> Plan is to buy 60/80 PAK-FA off shelf and speed up LCA MK-2 and AMCA .
> According to source the Russians have promised to consider the request.
> 
> What you guies think ??? BS or is it feasible ??? I definalty like it though



I think its an awesome thing to do.

Even pakfa with modified al-41 engine is very good.

At least not worse than rafale.

The only prob being its impossible for russians to cater to this request as they want pakfa for themselves too.


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## Abingdonboy

Sergi said:


> @sancho @Abingdonboy @sandy_3126
> I get a wind of the backup plan in case MMRCA failed to materialise
> The source is reliable still its very hard to process.
> 
> Plan is to buy 60/80 PAK-FA off shelf and speed up LCA MK-2 and AMCA .
> According to source the Russians have promised to consider the request.
> 
> What you guies think ??? BS or is it feasible ??? I definalty like it though


My initial reaction is BS, mate.

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## he-man

Abingdonboy said:


> My initial reaction is BS, mate.



Lol:p


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## MilSpec

Sergi said:


> @sancho @Abingdonboy @sandy_3126
> I get a wind of the backup plan in case MMRCA failed to materialise
> The source is reliable still its very hard to process.
> 
> Plan is to buy 60/80 PAK-FA off shelf and speed up LCA MK-2 and AMCA .
> According to source the Russians have promised to consider the request.
> 
> What you guies think ??? BS or is it feasible ??? I definalty like it though


Rafale is done deal. No backZies. If it doesn't materialize then re-tender

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## Abingdonboy

sandy_3126 said:


> Rafale is done deal. No backZies. If it doesn't materialize then re-tender


If it doesn't materialise re-tendering won't happen IMHO, the IAF cannot wait another, what, 7-8 years for a replacement to the MIG-21 (en masse). I bet in that situation they would buy a few more MKIs off the shelf and place larger order for the LCA MK.2 demanding that HAL ramp up delivery significantly. 


As it is, like you say, the Rafale is a done deal....


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## Sergi

sandy_3126 said:


> Rafale is done deal. No backZies. If it doesn't materialize then re-tender


There wont be a re-tender for sure !!! Chances of direct FMS are higher than retender.
Sourse is a babu. And the issue is cost. Right now its around 22 billions ( including everything expect weapon ) and bound to increase with time. And first Rafale isnt expected before late 2016 or early 2017 almost same time frame as a PAK-FA in RuAF.
So cost befit calution is favouring PAK-FA if Russian are willing to put forward IAF order and its infra would be used by future FGFA. There calutions are pure economics.
Actually the news might have some weight as IAF has critised few things in PAK-FA to MOD. And this might be the reason for that
@Abingdonboy


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## Abingdonboy

Sergi said:


> There wont be a re-tender for sure !!! Chances of direct FMS are higher than retender.
> Sourse is a babu. And the issue is cost. Right now its around 22 billions ( including everything expect weapon ) and bound to increase with time. And first Rafale isnt expected before late 2016 or early 2017 almost same time frame as a PAK-FA in RuAF.
> So cost befit calution is favouring PAK-FA if Russian are willing to put forward IAF order and its infra would be used by future FGFA. There calutions are pure economics.
> Actually the news might have some weight as IAF has critised few things in PAK-FA to MOD. And this might be the reason for that
> @Abingdonboy


I still highly doubt this news bro for a number of reasons. 


As far as I'm concerned this Rafale deal is being signed this year- maybe before the end of Summer. End of story really.


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## Sergi

Abingdonboy said:


> I still highly doubt this news bro for a number of reasons.
> 
> 
> As far as I'm concerned this Rafale deal is being signed this year- maybe before the end of Summer. End of story really.


I am wondering why are you so convinced over its a done deal !!!!
If that was the case MOD would not have any trouble signing assurance deal . But they don't !!!

PS: i am not saying PAK-FA is 100% news but source is reliable so far. Even I doubt Russia will put our needs ahead of them. But we are just discussing a possibility.

If I am not wrong RAFALE will cost around 30 billions with full package intra and weapon. Quality comes at price but don't forget Rafale was selected for being L1


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## Abingdonboy

Sergi said:


> I am wondering why are you so convinced over its a done deal !!!!
> If that was the case MOD would not have any trouble signing assurance deal . But they don't !!!
> 
> PS: i am not saying PAK-FA is 100% news but source is reliable so far. And we are just discussing possibility.
> 
> If I am not wrong RAFALE will cost around 30 billions with full package intra and weapon. Quality comes at price but don't forget Rafale was selected for being L1


Firstly the 30 billion figure is just wrong, it was simply quoted by the Indian media who got their little minds confused between the difference between unit/flyaway costs and life-cycle costs.


I am convinced about the Rafale for a number of reasons- looking at everything that Dassualt has been saying of late- positive, optimistic and now seemingly just waiting on the General Elections to take place and the next GoI to settle in. Then there is the issues that seem to have been overcome i.e. the work-share agreement with HAL. The Indian Fin Minstry saying the MMRCA is budgeted for in the Defence budget 2014-15. The agreements Dassualt is making with other Indian companies for tie ups and the like as part of the Rafale deal. Simply put it seems that all the ducks are lined up and now all that remains is for the next GoI to get their act together.


Wrt the MoD not signing a pre-agreement and such. This really is non-news, Dassualt might have wanted it but this is NOT how the Indian MoD works or ever has, they don't hand out pre-agreements it just isn't done. So the MoD not wanting to do this in the case of the Rafale is meaningless and not a worrying sign in the slightest.

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## Sergi

Abingdonboy said:


> Firstly the 30 billion figure is just wrong, it was simply quoted by the Indian media who got their little minds confused between the difference between unit/flyaway costs and life-cycle costs.
> 
> 
> I am convinced about the Rafale for a number of reasons- looking at everything that Dassualt has been saying of late- positive, optimistic and now seemingly just waiting on the General Elections to take place and the next GoI to settle in. Then there is the issues that seem to have been overcome i.e. the work-share agreement with HAL. The Indian Fin Minstry saying the MMRCA is budgeted for in the Defence budget 2014-15. The agreements Dassualt is making with other Indian companies for tie ups and the like as part of the Rafale deal. Simply put it seems that all the ducks are lined up and now all that remains is for the next GoI to get their act together.
> 
> 
> Wrt the MoD not signing a pre-agreement and such. This really is non-news, Dassualt might have wanted it but this is NOT how the Indian MoD works or ever has, they don't hand out pre-agreements it just isn't done. So the MoD not wanting to do this in the case of the Rafale is meaningless and not a worrying sign in the slightest.


I too like Rafale but not at that cost !!! 30 billion is supposed to be cost of jets + training + service infra + weapons package. If not what you say is the figure ????

On rest parts Lets wait and watch.


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## MilSpec

Abingdonboy said:


> If it doesn't materialise re-tendering won't happen IMHO, the IAF cannot wait another, what, 7-8 years for a replacement to the MIG-21 (en masse). I bet in that situation they would buy a few more MKIs off the shelf and place larger order for the LCA MK.2 demanding that HAL ramp up delivery significantly.
> 
> 
> As it is, like you say, the Rafale is a done deal....



Just give the damn thing to reliance to manufacture, that is all the fuss is about.... If HAL manufactures the entire system, no private party benefits.


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## he-man

Sergi said:


> I am wondering why are you so convinced over its a done deal !!!!
> If that was the case MOD would not have any trouble signing assurance deal . But they don't !!!
> 
> PS: i am not saying PAK-FA is 100% news but source is reliable so far. Even I doubt Russia will put our needs ahead of them. But we are just discussing a possibility.
> 
> If I am not wrong RAFALE will cost around 30 billions with full package intra and weapon. Quality comes at price but don't forget Rafale was selected for being L1



I told everyone last year too that pakfa+rafale at the same time with shrinking economy will be a nightmare for us.

Ppl kept on laughing then.i still maintain we should have gone to pakfa onky and bypassed rafale completely but now its too late for that


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## MilSpec

Sergi said:


> There wont be a re-tender for sure !!! Chances of direct FMS are higher than retender.
> Sourse is a babu. And the issue is cost. Right now its around 22 billions ( including everything expect weapon ) and bound to increase with time. And first Rafale isnt expected before late 2016 or early 2017 almost same time frame as a PAK-FA in RuAF.
> So cost befit calution is favouring PAK-FA if Russian are willing to put forward IAF order and its infra would be used by future FGFA. There calutions are pure economics.
> Actually the news might have some weight as IAF has critised few things in PAK-FA to MOD. And this might be the reason for that
> @Abingdonboy



I dont think Rafale is going to change. It has been selected and it will come to IAF. It's just that some hawks in the south block want subsystems to be directed towards reliance instead of HAL. Dassault see the advantage in that, as they know they can collude with reliance later to inflate the prices down the line, thus all the technology transfer drama.

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## Sergi

sandy_3126 said:


> Just give the damn thing to reliance to manufacture, that is all the fuss is about.... If HAL manufactures the entire system, no private party benefits.


Or buy 60 off-shelf from Dassault and let HAL build rest with their own speed and absorb TOT throughly.


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## MilSpec

Sergi said:


> Or buy 60 off-shelf from Dassault and let HAL build rest with their own speed and absorb TOT throughly.


That is what is being discussed right now.


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## Sergi

sandy_3126 said:


> I dont think Rafale is going to change. It has been selected and it will come to IAF. It's just that some hawks in the south block want subsystems to be directed towards reliance instead of HAL. Dassault see the advantage in that, as they know they can collude with reliance later to inflate the prices down the line, thus all the technology transfer drama.


I am not sure on it anymore. But lets hope you are right.


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## he-man

sandy_3126 said:


> That is what is being discussed right now.


Reliance was far better option.
There is nothing to be absorbed that hal won't get with pakfa


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## Sergi

sandy_3126 said:


> That is what is being discussed right now.


I too though that. But its seem to be another rumour only. 
Are you sure about it ????


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## MilSpec

Sergi said:


> I too though that. But its seem to be another rumour only.
> Are you sure about it ????


No, I haven't checked with any relevant sources for months now.
actually let me take that back, I don't bother discussing any aviation matters with my friends anymore, it's just too depressing.



he-man said:


> Reliance was far better option.
> There is nothing to be absorbed that hal won't get with pakfa


You do realize that my comment snide take on Reliance's corrupt practices, right?


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## he-man

sandy_3126 said:


> No, I haven't checked with any relevant sources for months now.
> 
> 
> You do realize that my comment snide take on Reliance's corrupt practices, right?



Man this was probably last chance for a private participation on large scale.

At least for next 30 years.


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## Sergi

sandy_3126 said:


> No, I haven't checked with any relevant sources for months now.


My information is negotiations are taking place as in the actual tender. So changes at all. Means only 18 off-shelf.


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## MilSpec

he-man said:


> Man this was probably last chance for a private participation on large scale.
> 
> At least for next 30 years.


ok


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## he-man

sandy_3126 said:


> ok


I am serious yaar


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## MilSpec

he-man said:


> I am serious yaar



If Reliance or tata or anyone else wants to manufacture Rafale, it is more than welcome to set up it's production facility in india, and sell it to IAF at prices cheaper than HAL or Dassualt Breguet.... I don't think anyone has stopped them.


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## he-man

sandy_3126 said:


> If Reliance or tata or anyone else wants to manufacture Rafale, it is more than welcome to set up it's production facility in india, and sell it to IAF at prices cheaper than HAL or Dassualt Breguet.... I don't think anyone has stopped them.



Of course govt is against reliance doing it and favours HAL .my point is that there is absolutely nothing to be gained for hal in this but a private player would have benefitted heavily and that was good for long term.

Hal has demonstrated amply that it cannot absorb tech at all .also it needs to focus on mki,pakfa and tejas.how can they make 3 -4 diff planes at same time.it will lead to delays again-i am convinced

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## MilSpec

he-man said:


> Of course govt is against reliance doing it and favours HAL .my point is that there is absolutely nothing to be gained for hal in this but a private player would have benefitted heavily and that was good for long term.


When HAL sells a MKI or a Jaguar or an AJT, It profits from the sale, Guess where that profit goes? Back to MoD.
When Reliance sells a Jet, Guess where the profit goes?

As far as gov't being against reliance is concerned, I highly doubt that that. 



he-man said:


> Hal has *demonstrated amply that it cannot absorb tech at all* .also it needs to focus on mki,pakfa and tejas.



Very amusing claims, Please tell me which technology transfer project is pending? Technology transfer might be a buzz word for people here, but in real life without completion technology transfer, any given project will not be scale it's gate review process. In other words it will affect all other aspects sub-assemblies which will result into incomplete project.

I have closely watched the technology transfer for MKI, and by all means the transfer of manufacturing process, cell training, and Technician engagement and transition, all went with surgical precision ahead of time.

If what you are referring to critical components, no inter-organisation technology transfer consists of 100% transfer of key subsystems.



he-man said:


> how can they make 3 -4 diff planes at same time.it will lead to delays again-i am convinced



More floorspace, more product engineering, more manufacuring planning. that is how you increase your product portfolio. Your convictions might have different benchmarks, but the same organisation that at one point made, Do 228, Mig21, Mig27, Jaguar, Aeropostiale cheetah, cheetak, HS748 together in it's divesified organisation, seems in a pretty good position to manufacture "3-4" diff planes.

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## Abingdonboy

Sergi said:


> I too like Rafale but not at that cost !!! 30 billion is supposed to be cost of jets + training + service infra + weapons package. If not what you say is the figure ????
> 
> On rest parts Lets wait and watch.


The figure is around $15-20BN. The $30BN figure is factoring in the total life cycle costs so entirely redundant.



sandy_3126 said:


> Just give the damn thing to reliance to manufacture, that is all the fuss is about.... If HAL manufactures the entire system, no private party benefits.


I'd prefer if it went to TATA or L&T over Reliance. As it is Reliance will be making the wings and many other parts for the Rafale in India along with many other pvt entities in India (i believe I've heard the figure of around 150 companies have been identified and signed up). Sir, the work-share agreement between Dassualt and HAL has all been sorted out now so that's a sticking point anymore.

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## sancho

Sergi said:


> Plan is to buy 60/80 PAK-FA off shelf and speed up LCA MK-2 and AMCA .
> According to source the Russians have promised to consider the request.
> 
> What you guies think ??? BS or is it feasible ??? I definalty like it though



If IAF would had wanted the early Pak Fa, they would had ordered it instead of the additional 42 x MKIs, but they rejected them as not fitting to their requirements. Personally I think that was a mistake but that's how it is now.
The relation to MMRCA doesn't exist, MMRCA and Pak Fa are meant for completely different roles, the operational costs are far higher and the benefits for Indian industry is not available. The latter is the most important part of MMRCA, which neither no other fighter other than Rafale or the EF can offer.
By the way, the Russians would not consider a minute, if we really put had forwarded such a request, they would have directly started building them, because any additional Pak Fa that will be produced on their production line, helps them to reduce the costs of it.



Sergi said:


> I too like Rafale but not at that cost !!! 30 billion is supposed to be cost of jets + training + service infra + weapons package. If not what you say is the figure ????



That is the possible price including weapons and that over several years of operations, but that is not the price of the MMRCA competition. That lies between $15 and 20 billion, depending on how many fighters will be procured at the end.
When you take the $30 billion figure to account for Rafale, you can't take the estimated $100 million (but I have some doubts that they can hold that) a piece for Pak Fa / FGFA either, but have to add a lot of things too and that ammount will be by far costlier, especially at the begining.

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## he-man

sancho said:


> If IAF would had wanted the early Pak Fa, they would had ordered it instead of the additional 42 x MKIs, but they rejected them as not fitting to their requirements. Personally I think that was a mistake but that's how it is now.
> The relation to MMRCA doesn't exist, MMRCA and Pak Fa are meant for completely different roles, the operational costs are far higher and the benefits for Indian industry is not available. The latter is the most important part of MMRCA, which neither no other fighter other than Rafale or the EF can offer.
> By the way, the Russians would not consider a minute, if we really put had forwarded such a request, they would have directly started building them, because any additional Pak Fa that will be produced on their production line, helps them to reduce the costs of it.
> 
> 
> 
> That is the possible price including weapons and that over several years of operations, but that is not the price of the MMRCA competition. That lies between $15 and 20 billion, depending on how many fighters will be procured at the end.
> When you take the $30 billion figure to account for Rafale, you can't take the estimated $100 million (but I have some doubts that they can hold that) a piece for Pak Fa / FGFA either, but have to add a lot of things too and that ammount will be by far costlier, especially at the begining.



U are right.
Initial pakfa is also just many times better than a mki.no competition at all.

Stupid decision to wait for 2022 or so


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## Echo_419

he-man said:


> Of course govt is against reliance doing it and favours HAL .my point is that there is absolutely nothing to be gained for hal in this but a private player would have benefitted heavily and that was good for long term.
> 
> Hal has demonstrated amply that it cannot absorb tech at all .also it needs to focus on mki,pakfa and tejas.how can they make 3 -4 diff planes at same time.it will lead to delays again-i am convinced



This lame duck Govt can't do nothing 
Only hope is that we have a strong & stable govt in Center 
By the way who are you voting for


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## sancho

he-man said:


> U are right.
> Initial pakfa is also just many times better than a mki.no competition at all.
> 
> Stupid decision to wait for 2022 or so



That's what I think as well, but more importantly, it will be important to have a stealth fighter soon, to keep an edge over PAF and keep up with PLAAF. Too bad that IAF rejected it, at least a leasing contranct of 2 x Pak Fa squads would have been great.


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## Donatello

when will this be signed, if ever?


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## sancho

Donatello said:


> when will this be signed, if ever?



Nothing happens till the elections are over.


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## he-man

Echo_419 said:


> This lame duck Govt can't do nothing
> Only hope is that we have a strong & stable govt in Center
> By the way who are you voting for



Bjp
I hate socialist policies of sonia


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## he-man

sancho said:


> That's what I think as well, but more importantly, it will be important to have a stealth fighter soon, to keep an edge over PAF and keep up with PLAAF. Too bad that IAF rejected it, at least a leasing contranct of 2 x Pak Fa squads would have been great.



I really doubt rafale is worth at 100 million per piece against similarly priced pakfa

And I bet after the slow growth in last 2 years govt is thinking the same


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## sancho

he-man said:


> I really doubt rafale is worth at 100 million per piece against similarly priced pakfa
> 
> And I bet after the slow growth in last 2 years govt is thinking the same



Capability wise it won't, but as a package of operational, industrial and technological benefits it is and that's what M-MRCA is about!


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## he-man

sancho said:


> Capability wise it won't, but as a package of operational, industrial and technological benefits it is and that's what M-MRCA is about!



Point is we are cash starved at the moment and it will persist for another 2-3 years

We should be smart like chinese


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## halloweene

Lots of issues were raised here recently.
First price. I heared of that 30 billion and was told BS. (to be plain).
Second well cost. Don't forget ToT costs include a lot of training, industrial procedures (you just don't build a Rafale the same way as a F-35 or Mki, no judgements about planes, but building process is different)
Third is and often forgotten, industrialization costs. Tooling, training ppl on specific tools and process (eg the automated "tube" making of material composites). Again, no judgement about HAL or Reliance, 
Quality assessment. Dassault is known to have one of the best worldwide.
Softwares. I know india is full of talented developers. Anyone has been within virtual center at Dassault? It is just like minority reports. And it is not only the software, but how to use it. See recent SAAB comments about it.
Finally, India will get as far as i was told, part of intellectual property of Rafale as far as new subcomponents will be built for indian Rafales.
If that is true (and i won't write it as a journalist, even if i'm the one that got confirmation from Dassault CEO about workshare during his conference), that is quite nice no?


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## Sergi

halloweene said:


> Lots of issues were raised here recently.
> First price. I heared of that 30 billion and was told BS. (to be plain).
> Second well cost. Don't forget ToT costs include a lot of training, industrial procedures (you just don't build a Rafale the same way as a F-35 or Mki, no judgements about planes, but building process is different)
> Third is and often forgotten, industrialization costs. Tooling, training ppl on specific tools and process (eg the automated "tube" making of material composites). Again, no judgement about HAL or Reliance,
> Quality assessment. Dassault is known to have one of the best worldwide.
> Softwares. I know india is full of talented developers. Anyone has been within virtual center at Dassault? It is just like minority reports. And it is not only the software, but how to use it. See recent SAAB comments about it.
> Finally, India will get as far as i was told, part of intellectual property of Rafale as far as new subcomponents will be built for indian Rafales.
> If that is true (and i won't write it as a journalist, even if i'm the one that got confirmation from Dassault CEO about workshare during his conference), that is quite nice no?


You are countering your own argument. 
You said 30 B$ is BS followded by huge list of expence !!!!
I know its life cycle cost but lets not go there. 
If you can tell me 
- what will be per "IndiaJet" cost ?
- is there any news about more off-shelf purchase
- whats the capacity of French production line per year ???


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## sancho

he-man said:


> Point is we are cash starved at the moment and it will persist for another 2-3 years



Which rules out Pak Fa in the first place, as it is far more costly to operate and IAF could buy less of them compared to MMRCA with the same operational budget. 
Also it's wrong that we have cash issues, the budget is still as big as last year and didn't the interim budget showed an increase of the defence budget?


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## halloweene

> If you can tell me
> - what will be per "IndiaJet" cost ?
> - is there any news about more off-shelf purchase
> - whats the capacity of French production line per year ???



i cant answer to that question, all depends on how it is calculated. And as you imagine, as it is negociated, noone will tell you. I can only give you fly away cost for a french one. Last numbers i heared about indians are around 85 to 120 M$ total procurement cost. But these values are just hot air imho.
About off the shelf purchase, they could only (if they must be one day) be decided after MMRCA cue to procurement procedure. (imagine what EF, Boeing or whoever would say in case...)
French production line is tailored for a rough max of 30 planes/year, but it would have impacts on Falcon lines etc. I doubt DA will go into it without VERY strong reasons. DA tend to be old fashioned inc., and not to fire people just for economicla reasons. It has obvoius advantages (soem of best engineers coul be payed bettter by other companis and stay, but also defects (they wont just hire someone for 6 months).


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## sancho

halloweene said:


> Finally, India will get as far as i was told, part of intellectual property of Rafale as far as new subcomponents will be built for indian Rafales.
> If that is true (and i won't write it as a journalist, even if i'm the one that got confirmation from Dassault CEO about workshare during his conference), that is quite nice no?



Sounds interesting, but depends on what components we are talking right? IP rights of a custom SATCOM system for Indian Rafales, that you mentioned earlier might be not bad, but isn't an important joint development where India would benefit financially, like it would be the case if India would be partner in the EF consortum. The most benefits in these regards would come through joint developments and although there are several areas with potential to be a win win for India and France, so far there is nothing in that regard!
Which areas would you expect where IP right would be shared?



Sergi said:


> - whats the capacity of French production line per year ???



Dassaults production line can go up to around 30 as halloweene said, but the current rate is 11 and won't go much higher unless India and Qatar order fighters soon. Currently they are even trying to divert French orders to India or Qatar, to save money in the French defence budget, while the fighters might be added later to the production again, when more money is available again. So don't expect an increase theire, but that won't effect us that much anyway, since (sadly) only 18 should be build completely on their production lines.


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## halloweene

i have no clue sancho, just telling what a lil bird told me


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## sancho

halloweene said:


> i have no clue sancho, just telling what a lil bird told me



Ic, something else. Could be wrong but did you recently mentioned something about a new seeker of AASM, here or on IDF? Wasn't sure anymore and can't find the post anymore. Can you shed some light on that, or do you have a source to read up?


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## ziaulislam

i think per jet cost will be 150million purely due to the fact that rafale producion has been limited till date, its isnt like f-35 or f-16 or even typhoon which cost is down or will be down due to huge orders.
second is the weapon package and training as well as infrastuture it will cost alot.
last is what will be the life cycle cost.?
what i dont understand is how come rafale cost is less than typhoon, it doesnt make sense?


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## he-man

ziaulislam said:


> i think per jet cost will be 150million purely due to the fact that rafale producion has been limited till date, its isnt like f-35 or f-16 or even typhoon which cost is down or will be down due to huge orders.
> second is the weapon package and training as well as infrastuture it will cost alot.
> last is what will be the life cycle cost.?
> what i dont understand is how come rafale cost is less than typhoon, it doesnt make sense?


Dammit
The deal is in real danger


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## MilSpec

sancho said:


> Capability wise it won't, but as a package of operational, industrial and technological benefits it is and that's what M-MRCA is about!



I have often wondered about this mythic industrial benefit, What exactly is it. Some explanation would help.

What new manufacturing process or metallurgical processes will this introduce?

We make russian planes on German and Japanese CNC machines, when it comes to stamping, forming, drawing, deep drawing, forging, casting, machining, planing, profiling EDM/ECM, SLS, I don't see much of a industrial process shortfall. So it might be a good practice to ask what are the Industrial technological benefits that Rafale offers.

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## he-man

sandy_3126 said:


> I have often wondered about this mythic industrial benefit, What exactly is it. Some explanation would help.
> 
> What new manufacturing process or metallurgical processes will this introduce?
> 
> We make russian planes on German and Japanese CNC machines, when it comes to stamping, forming, drawing, deep drawing, forging, casting, machining, planing, profiling EDM/ECM, SLS, I don't see much of a industrial process shortfall. So it might be a good practice to ask what are the Industrial technological benefits that Rafale offers.



Nothing.
Its a screwdriver job,everyone knows it.

Most of all fat cats of hal know it that after this,they can relax for next 10 years with their pathetic building speed.

Now sancho will come and contradict me but hal has proven its failure for anything worthwhile for decades now,ain't gonna change

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## MilSpec

he-man said:


> Nothing.
> Its a screwdriver job,everyone knows it.
> 
> Most of all fat cats of hal know it that after this,they can relax for next 10 years with their pathetic building speed.
> 
> Now sancho will come and contradict me but hal has proven its failure for anything worthwhile for decades now,ain't gonna change



buddy you don't know jack shit about HAL or their production..... Go visit their work-cell and learn what they do. the technicians, engineers and managers alike of HAL have been the most dedicated professionals that I have come across in my lifetime. This screw driver job as you claim is just another buzz word that people who never have worked a day in thier life devised. I would like to ask how many projects have you managed to malign an agency like HAL..... Work in the field for few years and then beat your chest as much as you want.....

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## Dillinger

sandy_3126 said:


> buddy you don't know jack shit about HAL or their production..... Go visit their work-cell and learn what they do. the technicians, engineers and managers alike of HAL have been the most dedicated professionals that I have come across in my lifetime. This screw driver job as you claim is just another buzz word that people who never have worked a day in thier life devised. I would like to ask how many projects have you managed to malign an agency like HAL..... Work in the field for few years and then beat your chest as much as you want.....



The thing is that most of our posters have no idea of the organisational dynamics, MoD's idiocies and the actual technical details involved. Start by asking him which project has HAL failed in, Tejas? How is that possible when the MoD ensured that HAL never designed the product in the first place thanks to the sudden and ad hoc (at least that's how it looks to me) decision to set up the ADA and pull the Tejas's design responsibility away from HAL thus rendering HAL in to a systems integrator. But the blame still is hung around HAL'S neck. That is not to say that HAL hasn't made its share of mistake, it has most definitely, but people need to understand the context otherwise appropriating blame is all we'll be left with rather than the more important follow up step of finding the solution.

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## MilSpec

Dillinger said:


> The thing is that most of our posters have no idea of the organisational dynamics, MoD's idiocies and the actual technical details involved. Start by asking him which project has HAL failed in, Tejas? How is that possible when the MoD ensured that HAL never designed the product in the first place thanks to the sudden and ad hoc (at least that's how it looks to me) decision to set up the ADA and pull the Tejas's design responsibility away from HAL thus rendering HAL in to a systems integrator. But the blame still is hung around HAL'S neck. That is not to say that HAL hasn't made its share of mistake, it has most definitely, but people need to understand the context otherwise appropriating blame is all we'll be left with rather than the more important follow up step of finding the solution.




I will openly criticize HAL's older generation of managers for not pushing harder on Mod for budgetary needs training, engagement, delivery, quality regime, scrap, rework etc. But maligning the premier agency that has implemented more engineering projects than the rest of the private sector of the country combined is something i will never accept. 

HAL has and will make mistakes, that's why MoD is there to ensure to keep checks and balance. But using a top organisation as buzz word for negative implications is nothing short of disservice to convictions and hard work of thousand of engineers and technicians who have devoted their lives in service of the nation.

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## halloweene

> Ic, something else. Could be wrong but did you recently mentioned something about a new seeker of AASM, here or on IDF? Wasn't sure anymore and can't find the post anymore. Can you shed some light on that, or do you have a source to read up?



Air&Cosmos, Feb 2013. summed it up here eurofighter @ starstreak.net • View topic - Typhoon export prospects snapshot


> We make russian planes on German and Japanese CNC machines, when it comes to stamping, forming, drawing, deep drawing, forging, casting, machining, planing, profiling EDM/ECM, SLS, I don't see much of a industrial process shortfall. So it might be a good practice to ask what are the Industrial technological benefits that Rafale offers.



Obviously Rafale team (not only Dassault) will not communicate about that before any signature... (and probably not after either as they consider it is client privilege to do so)


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## he-man

sandy_3126 said:


> buddy you don't know jack shit about HAL or their production..... Go visit their work-cell and learn what they do. the technicians, engineers and managers alike of HAL have been the most dedicated professionals that I have come across in my lifetime. This screw driver job as you claim is just another buzz word that people who never have worked a day in thier life devised. I would like to ask how many projects have you managed to malign an agency like HAL..... Work in the field for few years and then beat your chest as much as you want.....




I don't need to .
The products developed by them speak for them.its u who is chest thumping and not me.

If we have to move forward,hal needs to be disbanded and privatised,otherwise we will keep on importing 70 pc of stuff even after 50 years from now

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## he-man

And for the love of god I know the engineers are good and dedicated so I am laughing at the sarkari setup and poor planning and not at the talent pool


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## sancho

sandy_3126 said:


> I have often wondered about this mythic industrial benefit, What exactly is it. Some explanation would help.



Take Samtel for example, they get the chance to produce not only the HMS that they already produce, but also the FSO optronics system, most likely including the IRST and even some displays.
This would not be possible, if the deal would not include the high offset clause, which demands production parts in whatever form (licence production, JVs, ideally even in co-development) back to the Indian industry. The AESA production at BEL, including ToT and source codes will also help our own developments in that regard. I hoped that the French would go for more co-developments, but sadly that didn't happend so far, but anything that can help us wrt to development or production of techs, systems or even weapons must be highly welcomed!


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## sancho

halloweene said:


> Finally, a tri-modes version is being developped.



Which sensors are they aiming too? GPS/INS, laser and IR in once? Would be great operationally, but might make the AASM even more costly isn't it? Sadly still nothing about a much needed wingkit and even worse no re-design of the 125Kg version to make it quadpack compatible.


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## sancho

sandy_3126 said:


> Ithat has implemented more engineering projects than the rest of the private sector of the country combined



Is that a big thing by the fact that there wasn't and still isn't (in all fields) a competitior to HAL in the aero field in India? Who else was able to build the MKIs, or upgrade the older fighters so far? But look at the changes now and how TATA is pushing out licence produced helicopters from several different companies in high numbers, if I'm not wrong at even higher rates than HAL does it with their helicopter production lines and in a shorter time since they started with it. 
HAL had the comfort zone of no competition so far, but that is changing and HAL just like the other PSUs have to improve themselfs to remain competitive. 
That's what the Russians btw had learned in our market as well! The comfort zone of having nearly a monopoly in India is over and they have to provide higher quality, better reliability and more timely delivery too.


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## dbc

@sancho what is India's acquisition budget for 2014? According to what I've read I estimate it to be 8 billion USD.
Obviously India cannot afford to buy everything it needs this year. How do you see MoD prioritizing acquisitions in 2014?
What is more important? AWACS? Tankers? Chinook? Apache? M777? MMRCA? Submarines? Assault ship? Since the MMRCA will likely eat up a bulk of the acquisition budget in 2014, is the army and navy willing to defer or delay their plans to accommodate the MMRCA?


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## sancho

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> @sancho what is India's acquisition budget for 2014? According to what I've read I estimate it to be 8 billion USD.
> Obviously India cannot afford to buy everything it needs this year. How do you see MoD prioritizing acquisitions in 2014?
> What is more important? AWACS? Tankers? Chinook? Apache? M777? MMRCA? Submarines? Assault ship? Since the MMRCA will likely eat up a bulk of the acquisition budget in 2014, is the army and navy willing to defer or delay their plans to accommodate the MMRCA?



The interim budget for 2014/15 is planned around $36 billion, not sure how you get to $8 and MMRCA is logically not a single payment, but diverted over several years and so that's not an issue either. Nobody here can tell you what should have priority, that's up to MoD.


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## rockstarIN

Even all those payments will be spread out in coming years.


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## dbc

sancho said:


> The interim budget for 2014/15 is planned around $36 billion, not sure how you get to $8 and MMRCA is logically not a single payment, but diverted over several years and so that's not an issue either. Nobody here can tell you what should have priority, that's up to MoD.



Yes 36 Billion USD is the total budget of which the amount allocated for capital acquisition is 12.2 Billion USD and not 8 Billion as I had incorrectly stated earlier of which the IAF's share is 5.3 billion USD. Assuming 20% of 20 billion dollars is paid to Dassault in 2014 it still takes a big chunk out of the IAF's budget for 2014. Which acquisitions do you think the IAF will defer to pay for Rafales?

India’s Interim Defence Budget 2014-15: An Appraisal | Institute for Defence Studies and Analyses


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## rockstarIN

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Yes 36 Billion USD is the total budget of which the amount allocated for capital acquisition is 12.2 Billion USD and not 8 Billion as I had incorrectly stated earlier of which the IAF's share is 5.3 billion USD. Assuming 20% of 20 billion dollars is paid to Dassault in 2014 it still takes a big chunk out of the IAF's budget for 2014. Which acquisitions do you think the IAF will defer to pay for Rafales?
> 
> India’s Interim Defence Budget 2014-15: An Appraisal | Institute for Defence Studies and Analyses



First of all, MMRCA is not about US$ 20 billion, which already stated in this tread itself. Secondly the total cost of MMRCA, whether it is 12 Billion or 20 BL, it is the life circle cost, we do not need to pay in the stright terms. The first payments will be for 16 jets on fly away conditions, which will only arrive in 2017 (may be delayed depending upon signing of contract) and the setting up the facilities in India, which will start immediately in India. So there not be any 'heavy' payments for MMRCA in 2014-15.

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## halloweene

sancho said:


> Which sensors are they aiming too? GPS/INS, laser and IR in once? Would be great operationally, but might make the AASM even more costly isn't it? Sadly still nothing about a much needed wingkit and even worse no re-design of the 125Kg version to make it quadpack compatible.


yes

Some nice news today in Air & Cosmos. Export will allow to implement new industrial process on Rafale, like canards building using "adding carbon filaments" (dunno how to translate) technique. Good for RCS  , for india and for france

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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> Also it's wrong that we have cash issues, the budget is still as big as last year and didn't the interim budget showed an increase of the defence budget?


Indeed, mr @he-man keeps harping on about these budget constraints but the facts demonstrate otherwise. There is no such budget constraints- none at all, the defence budget is still growing year on year and India's GDP growth this year and next will be a healthy 5-6%, with a little work from the next GoI you will see a return to the good old days of 7-8+ plus from 2016. With a "Mr business" forecasted to be the next PM of India, a return to high GDP growth looks pretty certain.



sandy_3126 said:


> buddy you don't know jack shit about HAL or their production..... Go visit their work-cell and learn what they do. the technicians, engineers and managers alike of HAL have been the most dedicated professionals that I have come across in my lifetime. This screw driver job as you claim is just another buzz word that people who never have worked a day in thier life devised. I would like to ask how many projects have you managed to malign an agency like HAL..... Work in the field for few years and then beat your chest as much as you want.....


Ignore him sir! He is either a false flagger or has some serious issues...


for eg:

Some random Pak member comes along and blows hot air out his backside:




ziaulislam said:


> i think per jet cost will be 150million purely due to the fact that rafale producion has been limited till date, its isnt like f-35 or f-16 or even typhoon which cost is down or will be down due to huge orders.
> second is the weapon package and training as well as infrastuture it will cost alot.
> last is what will be the life cycle cost.?
> what i dont understand is how come rafale cost is less than typhoon, it doesnt make sense?



His response:



he-man said:


> Dammit
> The deal is in real danger

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## dbc

rockstarIN said:


> First of all, MMRCA is not about US$ 20 billion, which already stated in this tread itself. Secondly the total cost of MMRCA, whether it is 12 Billion or 20 BL, it is the life circle cost, we do not need to pay in the stright terms. The first payments will be for 16 jets on fly away conditions, which will only arrive in 2017 (may be delayed depending upon signing of contract) and the setting up the facilities in India, which will start immediately in India. So there not be any 'heavy' payments for MMRCA in 2014-15.



Which is why I estimated a payment of 20% of the TCV in the first year which is typical for such large deals.
I don't want to rehash the old argument on the total value of this contract. I do anticipate a payment of 3 to 4 Billion dollars in the first year. Just for grins can we assume a payment of 4 Billion USD in the first year and then work out which acquisitions the IAF will defer to accommodate the Rafale purchase.


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## he-man

Abingdonboy said:


> Indeed, mr @he-man keeps harping on about these budget constraints but the facts demonstrate otherwise. There is no such budget constraints- none at all, the defence budget is still growing year on year and India's GDP growth this year and next will be a healthy 5-6%, with a little work from the next GoI you will see a return to the good old days of 7-8+ plus from 2016. With a "Mr business" forecasted to be the next PM of India, a return to high GDP growth looks pretty certain.
> 
> 
> Ignore him sir! He is either a false flagger or has some serious issues...
> 
> 
> for eg:
> 
> Some random Pak member comes along and blows hot air out his backside:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> His response:



Ya man.
Not the first time I have been called a false flagger and won't be last.

I don't give a damn what u think but at least have some knowledge about financials of the economy before making tall claims.

The deal was delayed to cut back current account deficit and they were waiting for next financial year


----------



## he-man

Abingdonboy said:


> Indeed, mr @he-man keeps harping on about these budget constraints but the facts demonstrate otherwise. There is no such budget constraints- none at all, the defence budget is still growing year on year and India's GDP growth this year and next will be a healthy 5-6%, with a little work from the next GoI you will see a return to the good old days of 7-8+ plus from 2016. With a "Mr business" forecasted to be the next PM of India, a return to high GDP growth looks pretty certain.
> 
> 
> Ignore him sir! He is either a false flagger or has some serious issues...
> 
> 
> for eg:
> 
> Some random Pak member comes along and blows hot air out his backside:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> His response:



Plus a man not even residing in india is calling me false flagger is the biggest joke of all time.
U may well be a defence middleman always advocating western stuff without bothering about fiscal position.

Next time don't bother comment


----------



## MilSpec

sancho said:


> TATA is pushing out licence produced helicopters from several different companies in *high numbers, if I'm not wrong at even higher rates than HAL does it with their helicopter production lines* and in a shorter time since they started with it.


how about some data?


----------



## MilSpec

sancho said:


> Take Samtel for example, they get the chance to produce not only the HMS that they already produce, but also the FSO optronics system, most likely including the IRST and even some displays.
> This would not be possible, if the deal would not include the high offset clause, which demands production parts in whatever form (licence production, JVs, ideally even in co-development) back to the Indian industry. The AESA production at BEL, including ToT and source codes will also help our own developments in that regard. I hoped that the French would go for more co-developments, but sadly that didn't happend so far, but anything that can help us wrt to development or production of techs, systems or even weapons must be highly welcomed!


IRST and Displays constitute Industrial benefits from Rafale?


----------



## he-man

sandy_3126 said:


> IRST and Displays constitute Industrial benefits from Rafale?



I better stay out for the fear of being branded false flagger


----------



## halloweene

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Which is why I estimated a payment of 20% of the TCV in the first year which is typical for such large deals.
> I don't want to rehash the old argument on the total value of this contract. I do anticipate a payment of 3 to 4 Billion dollars in the first year. Just for grins can we assume a payment of 4 Billion USD in the first year and then work out which acquisitions the IAF will defer to accommodate the Rafale purchase.


not sure what you are meaning, but you don't may tvc for exports in France.


----------



## Abingdonboy

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Which is why I estimated a payment of 20% of the TCV in the first year which is typical for such large deals.
> I don't want to rehash the old argument on the total value of this contract. I do anticipate a payment of 3 to 4 Billion dollars in the first year. Just for grins can we assume a payment of 4 Billion USD in the first year and then work out which acquisitions the IAF will defer to accommodate the Rafale purchase.


AFAIK the initial payment for the MMRCA is only 10% so $1.2-2BN for the FY2014-15, the Fin Minister of India said that this initial payment had already been allotted for the FY2014-15 defence budget. There is no reason the IAF should have defer a a angle purchase to accommodate the Rafale buy, no reason whatsoever. The annual capex budget for the IAF is $6-7BN as is and the iAF has already publicly slated a plan to spend $100-150BN by 2022-4 on capital accusations so budget isn't really an issue.



----------------------------------------

Interesting:


*Deal for 126 Rafale fighters close to being signed*

_NEW DELHI: France and India are fully on track to seal the deal for the around $20 billion MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft) project, under which IAF will acquire 126 Rafale fighter jets, French ambassador Francios Richier said. 
"Negotiations have recently achieved significant progress. We are looking to sign the intergovernmental agreement together with the commercial contract for the planes," said Richier, speaking exclusively to TOI.
*Reacting to recent reports [see post #5371] that France had asked the Indian government to sign a government guarantee to safeguard the negotiations for the fighters, Richier denied that any such agreement was asked for. "We have worked very closely with all Indian governments, so we have no reason to ask for such an agreement," he said. *
[...]
Eurofighter Typhoon as well as the US fighters that lost out in the long-drawn selection process are eagerly waiting in the wings in the hope of staging a comeback in the dogfight over the world's biggest such tender. 
But there seems little possibility of that happening now, with India having invested almost a decade in finally selecting the Rafale after extensive technical and commercial evaluation. Down to just 34 fighter squadrons at present when it requires at least 44, IAF is banking upon the MMRCA project to retain its combat edge against adversaries._

from:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/i...w/33043249.cms




So where are these reports coming from? They seem to be utter fabrications.


----------



## rockstarIN

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Which is why I estimated a payment of 20% of the TCV in the first year which is typical for such large deals.
> I don't want to rehash the old argument on the total value of this contract. I do anticipate a payment of 3 to 4 Billion dollars in the first year. Just for grins can we assume a payment of 4 Billion USD in the first year and then work out which acquisitions the IAF will defer to accommodate the Rafale purchase.



I do not know how the payment terms in huge military contracts. But 20-30% upfront payment is not a term favorable to India for a contract where the total value is calculated in life circle cost basis and only16 is purchased out of 126 on fly away basis. Indian military contracts which is quite unique including ToT and involvement of Indian companies in production. I'm sure we are still paying Russia on yearly basis for MKI production which is still going on.


----------



## halloweene

once again, exports from France are tax free. The rest is indian stuff


----------



## sancho

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Assuming 20% of 20 billion dollars is paid to Dassault in 2014 it still takes a big chunk out of the IAF's budget for 2014. Which acquisitions do you think the IAF will defer to pay for Rafales?



The most logical way would be, that IAF pays for the first 18 Rafales that will be produced by Dassault itself and which are already budgeted by the French forces. Lets assume a high system cost of $150 million each =>$2.7 billions, so roughly half of the budget, but obviously less than what you estimated.
That still leaves more than enough room for Apaches (although I would kick them first for Rudras or LCH, if I had to safe money somewhere), Chinooks and most likely the A330 MRTT.
So neither do I see IAF defering procurements, nor should there be any need to divert funds from IA or IN as you assumed earlier too.



sandy_3126 said:


> how about some data?



Nothing new, we have discussed that last year when the news about TATA increasing S92 production rate till the end of the year.



sandy_3126 said:


> IRST and Displays constitute Industrial benefits from Rafale?



Isn't it? How would you describe Samtel getting hands on techs (especially the HMS, the optronics and IRST) they couldn't develop anytime soon, that they can not only produce for the Indian rrequirement like in every normal licence production, but also for any future Rafale orders, especially the export once. That gives them the possibility to earn additional money, apart from the work they do for Indian forces (exactly what you want HAL to do as well) and lets not forget that this industrial benefits will also create more jobs in India! It's not only Samtel, Reliance will surely built wings for export customers too, BEL, or even HAL. The French even revised their offer in Switzerland after we selected Rafale, because they planed with diverting production parts to India to reduce the cost.

We have comparable industrial benefits from producing parts or taking over maintenance for Migs or Flankers of other Asian countries, we produce parts for Do 228 aircrafts, but all at far lower level then what the MMRCA / Rafale gets us. Imo, the industrial benefit with the EF could be even higher as part of the consortium, but it's the whole package that counts, not just one part of it and the overall benefits made Rafale clearly preferable for India.


----------



## MilSpec

sancho said:


> Isn't it? How would you describe Samtel getting hands on techs (especially the HMS, the optronics and IRST) they couldn't develop anytime soon, that they can not only produce for the Indian rrequirement like in every normal licence production, but also for any future Rafale orders, especially the export once. That gives them the possibility to earn additional money, apart from the work they do for Indian forces (exactly what you want HAL to do as well) and lets not forget that this industrial benefits will also create more jobs in India! It's not only Samtel, Reliance will surely built wings for export customers too, BEL, or even HAL. The French even revised their offer in Switzerland after we selected Rafale, because they planed with diverting production parts to India to reduce the cost.
> 
> We have comparable industrial benefits from producing parts or taking over maintenance for Migs or Flankers of other Asian countries, we produce parts for Do 228 aircrafts, but all at far lower level then what the MMRCA / Rafale gets us. Imo, the industrial benefit with the EF could be even higher as part of the consortium, but it's the whole package that counts, not just one part of it and the overall benefits made Rafale clearly preferable for India.



Let's for a sec assume that a generic display in rafale would be made by samtel. How would samtel approach this, would it expect DB to provide specs, ppaps, process control and may be tooling to samtel for manufacturing the display which is beyond it's manufacturing prowess, or would it be just the product requirements?
In essence is the display system an completely new industrial technology which was beyond Samtel's reach till now which has been now facilitated by rafale?

if yes, are their any other such subsystems that can be identified?


----------



## he-man

sandy_3126 said:


> Let's for a sec assume that a generic display in rafale would be made by samtel. How would samtel approach this, would it expect DB to provide specs, ppaps, process control and may be tooling to samtel for manufacturing the display which is beyond it's manufacturing prowess, or would it be just the product requirements?
> In essence is the display system an completely new industrial technology which was beyond Samtel's reach till now which has been now facilitated by rafale?
> 
> if yes, are their any other such subsystems that can be identified?



Its all a hogwash.
Its a simple lcd display,we cannot even make that without the help of elbit!

thats how bad our condition really is


----------



## sancho

sandy_3126 said:


> In essence is the display system an completely new industrial technology which was beyond Samtel's reach till now which has been now facilitated by rafale?



 You are focusing on the displays only to create a point, while ignoring the more capable techs! We know that Samtel can make displays, but they can't make HMS or IRST right? They only will produce displays too, because they are a JV partner of Thales.


----------



## he-man

sancho said:


> You are focusing on the displays only to create a point, while ignoring the more capable techs! We know that Samtel can make displays, but they can't make HMS or IRST right? They only will produce displays too, because they are a JV partner of Thales.



The point remains same.
The tech will never be actually available to india per se with ip rights.

Never.

Thats why its just equivalent to an offshelf purchase only,with the exception that its produced in india.


----------



## sancho

he-man said:


> The point remains same.
> The tech will never be actually available to india per se with ip rights.
> 
> Never.
> 
> Thats why its just equivalent to an offshelf purchase only,with the exception that its produced in india.



So what? We don't need to own it, but learn how it works and how we can produce it. That will help in own developments later too. We have IP rights of certain FGFA techs too, but that doesn't automatically mean that we can develop or produce them now on our own right?
We have still a very long way to go in the aero field and are lacking so far behind, any JV or future co-development will help us. I woul love to see us jointly developing a NG Python or MICA missile where we can actually learn from latest techs, rather than trying to build something that is roughly comparable to the older R77s like Astra.


----------



## MilSpec

sancho said:


> You are focusing on the displays only to create a point, while ignoring the more capable techs! We know that Samtel can make displays, but they can't make HMS or IRST right? They only will produce displays too, because they are a JV partner of Thales.


Ok lets look at Helmet mounted cuing system or infrared search and tracking device... So you are saying that Samtel cannot make these on their own so rafale deal will facilitate samtel in producing such subsystems... is that correct?



sancho said:


> So what? We don't need to own it, but learn how it works and how we can produce it. That will help in own developments later too. We have IP rights of certain FGFA techs too, but that doesn't automatically mean that we can develop or produce them now on our own right?
> We have still a very long way to go in the aero field and are lacking so far behind, any JV or future co-development will help us. I woul love to see us jointly developing a NG Python or MICA missile where we can actually learn from latest techs, rather than trying to build something that is roughly comparable to the older R77s like Astra.



Astra's seeker are nothing like the R77's btw, there is speculation that astra seeker migh have a lock on after launch pps mode like the R27 Et/Er with two way comm link. Also Astra I/II both will have two seeker configurations.

And also this rhetoric that Western bvr are the bees knees is completely unsubstantiated. Russian seekers and propulsion has developed with the same finnese, with rvv-sd and K77 aesa, most if not all western BVRM's will find themselves out ranged and out gunned.

edit:
Is there any indian organisation developing FLIR systems by any chance, like IRDE?

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## dbc

sandy_3126 said:


> And also this rhetoric that Western bvr are the bees knees is completely unsubstantiated. Russian seekers and propulsion has developed with the same finnese, with rvv-sd and K77 aesa, most if not all western BVRM's will find themselves out ranged and out gunned.



What is this based on? Real world test data? Operational use data? It is apparent that you love all things Russian - da?


----------



## MilSpec

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> What is this based on? Real world test data? Operational use data? It is apparent that you love all things Russian - da?


Let me know when ratheon/usaf publishes it's test data...


----------



## dbc

sancho said:


> The most logical way would be, that IAF pays for the first 18 Rafales that will be produced by Dassault itself and which are already budgeted by the French forces. Lets assume a high system cost of $150 million each =>$2.7 billions, so roughly half of the budget, but obviously less than what you estimated.
> That still leaves more than enough room for Apaches (although I would kick them first for Rudras or LCH, if I had to safe money somewhere), Chinooks and most likely the A330 MRTT.



It isn't just the jets, there is simulators, training, tools for maintenance, weapons and other consumables.
I've always wondered who pays for tooling that will be required by HAL? Is this part of the MMRCA cost estimate?

So your order of priority for the IAF is? 
1. A330 MRTT
2. Chinooks
3. Apache

What about AWACS? IADS? light helicopters? Drones? LCA? Jaguar upgrade? Mirage upgrade? Sukhoi upgrade? PakFA and AMCA? Remember, the contract for the Mirage upgrade etc has been signed but payment from these will be due in 2014 and beyond.


----------



## dbc

sandy_3126 said:


> Let me know when ratheon/usaf publishes it's test data...



But they do publish the results of the test. So it is well known if a missile test met test objectives.
Besides that there is operation history from Vietnam and beyond. So how have Russian BVR missiles performed in combat?


----------



## MilSpec

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> But they do publish the results of the test. So it is well known if a missile test met test objectives.
> Besides that there is operation history from Vietnam and beyond. So how have Russian BVR missiles performed in combat?



Sure use the operational data R27T, from 1991 stock used by ethopia with Prgs 21 seekers as the combat history of vympel okb. 
If you choose to believe that IAF inducts missiles without testing them then, good for you.....

Also note IAF fields Python v, Mica and IAF has also expressed interest in integrating Meteor for MKI in the past.


----------



## dbc

sandy_3126 said:


> Sure use the operational data R27T, from 1991 stock used by ethopia with Prgs 21 seekers as the combat history of vympel okb.
> If you choose to believe that IAF inducts missiles without testing them then, good for you.....
> 
> Also note IAF fields Python v, Mica and IAF has also expressed interest in integrating Meteor for MKI in the past.



Like the French Durrandal that was too expensive to test until close to its use-by date? And do expand on that Ethopian conflict tell us all how well those Russian missiles performed.


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## MilSpec

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Like the French Durrandal that was too expensive to test until close to its use-by date? And do expand on that Ethopian conflict tell us all how well those Russian missiles performed.


well if, ethopian conflict is your benchmark for operational validity, then you win... Aim 120 is the best, we are just uneducated to realize that.


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## rockstarIN

IF Russian BVRs were not reliable, then IAF would not have purchased it. (Even CAG was skeptical about its performance) We got the deliveries of our latest Mig-29Ks from 2009 onwards and the missiles are of Russian R series. Whereas we could integrate Derby or MICA which was already available in the market for Mig-29K.



Death.By.Chocolate said:


> It isn't just the jets, there is simulators, training, tools for maintenance, weapons and other consumables.
> I've always wondered who pays for tooling that will be required by HAL? Is this part of the MMRCA cost estimate?
> 
> So your order of priority for the IAF is?
> 1. A330 MRTT
> 2. Chinooks
> 3. Apache
> 
> What about AWACS? IADS? light helicopters? Drones? *LCA?* Jaguar upgrade? Mirage upgrade? Sukhoi upgrade? PakFA and AMCA? Remember, the contract for the Mirage upgrade etc has been signed but payment from these will be due in 2014 and beyond.




LCA - there is a separate portion of budget for DRDO for testing purpose. Moreover, only 4-5 LCAs will be delivered in 2014-15 of which HAL pegged the price @26 million per jet. 
-MKI upgrade - there is no MKI upgrade going on now, not in 2014-15 for sure.
AMCA- No needed to be funded by IAF, will be from DRDO/HAL fund.
Mirage Upgrade - Upgrade already started and, few got fully upgraded till now in France. So payment might have started last financial year itself.


----------



## he-man

rockstarIN said:


> IF Russian BVRs were not reliable, then IAF would not have purchased it. (Even CAG was skeptical about its performance) We got the deliveries of our latest Mig-29Ks from 2009 onwards and the missiles are of Russian R series. Whereas we could integrate Derby or MICA which was already available in the market for Mig-29K.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LCA - there is a separate portion of budget for DRDO for testing purpose. Moreover, only 4-5 LCAs will be delivered in 2014-15 of which HAL pegged the price @26 million per jet.
> -MKI upgrade - there is no MKI upgrade going on now, not in 2014-15 for sure.
> AMCA- No needed to be funded by IAF, will be from DRDO/HAL fund.
> Mirage Upgrade - Upgrade already started and, few got fully upgraded till now in France. So payment might have started last financial year itself.



Mki's are old and overrated,need immediate upgrades.

Mirage 2000 upgrade is without engine,its max life even after that 40 million per plane upgrade will be like 10 years max.

A new mig 29 costs 40 million

Then lca,i don't even want to comment


----------



## Abingdonboy

he-man said:


> Mki's are old and overrated,need immediate upgrades.


Riiiiiiight........ "old" and "overrated", easy meat for your Thunders eh?

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## sancho

sandy_3126 said:


> So you are saying that Samtel cannot make these on their own so rafale deal will facilitate samtel in producing such subsystems... is that correct?



Yes, they can't do it alone, that's why they went for the JV with Thales.



sandy_3126 said:


> Astra's seeker are nothing like the R77's



Where did I said it would? I said that the missile is aimed on the same performance and similar capabilities like the R77s, since the main idea is to replace them in the Indian inventory. But neither does it looks like we have met the performance, nor is it developed with much foresight, when you already develop NG fighters.



sandy_3126 said:


> Is there any indian organisation developing FLIR systems by any chance, like IRDE?



I read that there were some developments in that direction, not sure which company it was, but by the fact that we are completely dependent on Israeli FLIRs or optical sights, the success should be limited. Aren't even the IR sights of the MBT upgrades Israeli, not to mention the FLIRs of combat helicopters or surveillance aircrafts?



Death.By.Chocolate said:


> It isn't just the jets, there is simulators, training, tools for maintenance, weapons and other consumables



Which is why took the „system“ cost, which includes most of this except for weapons, that will be added in seperate deals.



Death.By.Chocolate said:


> So your order of priority for the IAF is?
> 1. A330 MRTT
> 2. Chinooks
> 3. Apache



Those are at least the procurements that were reportedly the closest to be sealed and most likely aimed at the coming budget. What priority they have, is as said dependent on IAF, not on us. But yes, for me that order would be the way to go.



Death.By.Chocolate said:


> What about AWACS? IADS? light helicopters? Drones? LCA? Jaguar upgrade? Mirage upgrade? Sukhoi upgrade? PakFA and AMCA? Remember, the contract for the Mirage upgrade etc has been signed but payment from these will be due in 2014 and beyond.



You talked about the budget for new procurements, not upgrades or orders already taken like the A50 AWACS, or the Mirage upgrades. Even if they are due in 2014, they must had been budgeted earlier.


----------



## he-man

Oh yeah they indeed are.

Just look at the irst and radar performance and then try to be a smartass.

It was a good plane 10 years back,with that vintage pesa and a mediocre irst,not to mention an rcs in 8-10 m2 range its not anymore.

Then the al-31 has life of only 2000 hours,no fadec.

Therefore immediate upgrade is required


----------



## Abingdonboy

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> It isn't just the jets, there is simulators, training, tools for maintenance, weapons and other consumables.
> I've always wondered who pays for tooling that will be required by HAL? Is this part of the MMRCA cost estimate?
> 
> So your order of priority for the IAF is?
> 1. A330 MRTT
> 2. Chinooks
> 3. Apache
> .


From day one the IAF invited bids to provide all of the above, it was never just about the fighters alone, it was about the training, the simulators, weapons, the industrial benefits, etc etc and what was invited were PACKAGES including the above.


----------



## he-man

Abingdonboy said:


> From day one the IAF invited bids to provide all of the above, it was never just about the fighters alone, it was about the training, the simulators, weapons, the industrial benefits, etc etc and what was invited were PACKAGES including the above.



Cannot disagree with u here.
The only contention is timing of orders.

For that antony needs spanking


----------



## sancho

he-man said:


> The only contention is timing of orders.



 Which is caused mainly because of the delays in the IAF evaluation, or now the delays in the industrial negotioations between Dassault and Indian counterparts and not because MoD is waiting. Without that Dassault/Reliance issue, I'm sure that the deal would had been signed last year, now everything is dependent on the new Government. 
Btw, the MMRCA RFP was aimed ait first delivery in 2015/16, while FGFA was aimed at 2017/18, so there was never a planned gap in the induction of these fighters like you want it, simply because both projects have different aims.


----------



## he-man

sancho said:


> Which is caused mainly because of the delays in the IAF evaluation, or now the delays in the industrial negotioations between Dassault and Indian counterparts and not because MoD is waiting. Without that Dassault/Reliance issue, I'm sure that the deal would had been signed last year, now everything is dependent on the new Government.
> Btw, the MMRCA RFP was aimed ait first delivery in 2015/16, while FGFA was aimed at 2017/18, so there was never a planned gap in the induction of these fighters like you want it, simply because both projects have different aims.



Here u are wrong.
The project inking and also the fgfa project has been delayed to decrease the current account deficit,the negotiation claim is bullshit.

Its all related to money.

But yes we need rafale,there is simply no going back now,lets hope bjp does not start inquiry on the said deal


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## sancho

he-man said:


> Here u are wrong.
> The project inking and also the fgfa project has been delayed to decrease the current account deficit



Oh boy...


----------



## he-man

sancho said:


> Oh boy...



thats a fact


----------



## rockstarIN

he-man said:


> thats a fact


Are we paying us dollars to russia


----------



## he-man

rockstarIN said:


> Are we paying us dollars to russia



cad increases with any import,not just dollar trade.


----------



## dbc

sancho said:


> Yes, they can't do it alone, that's why they went for the JV with Thales.
> 
> 
> 
> Where did I said it would? I said that the missile is aimed on the same performance and similar capabilities like the R77s, since the main idea is to replace them in the Indian inventory. But neither does it looks like we have met the performance, nor is it developed with much foresight, when you already develop NG fighters.
> 
> 
> 
> I read that there were some developments in that direction, not sure which company it was, but by the fact that we are completely dependent on Israeli FLIRs or optical sights, the success should be limited. Aren't even the IR sights of the MBT upgrades Israeli, not to mention the FLIRs of combat helicopters or surveillance aircrafts?
> 
> 
> 
> Which is why took the „system“ cost, which includes most of this except for weapons, that will be added in seperate deals.
> 
> 
> 
> Those are at least the procurements that were reportedly the closest to be sealed and most likely aimed at the coming budget. What priority they have, is as said dependent on IAF, not on us. But yes, for me that order would be the way to go.
> 
> 
> 
> You talked about the budget for new procurements, not upgrades or orders already taken like the A50 AWACS, or the Mirage upgrades. Even if they are due in 2014, they must had been budgeted earlier.



I'd argue mid air refueling assets and AWACS are far more important than the MMRCA deal. As for tooling at HAL I think that will be HAL's CAPEX and separate from the IAF's budget. I don't see why the IAF will pay for tooling at HAL?



sandy_3126 said:


> well if, ethopian conflict is your benchmark for operational validity, then you win... Aim 120 is the best, we are just uneducated to realize that.



Why so defensive? You were the first to bring Ethiopia into the discussion.


----------



## MilSpec

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Why so defensive? You were the first to bring Ethiopia into the discussion.


read again...


----------



## rockstarIN

he-man said:


> cad increases with any import,not just dollar trade.


Not talking about the rate but reserve. We had problem for only dollars not other currencies.


----------



## he-man

rockstarIN said:


> Not talking about the rate but reserve. We had problem for only dollars not other currencies.



Reserve cannot be used for these deals,its for emergency situations.

We have problem importing due to weak currency against dollar and euro both so we are hoping it eases soon.

Otherwise pakfa deal should have been signed 2 years back,there is nothing to even negotiate there.the deal got stuck on money front.

Same is the case with mki upgrade,we have opened far too many fronts at the same time and don't forget the budget for iaf is like 6-8 billion only(need to check).

But yeah we need to get these birds as defence is paramount


----------



## SpArK



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## halloweene

> *Rafael targets Indian Rafale opportunity*



Rafael targets Indian Rafale opportunity - 4/7/2014 - Flight Global

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## sancho

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> I'd argue mid air refueling assets and AWACS are far more important than the MMRCA deal.



The tankers are not, since offensive strike capability has far more importance. I wouldn't mind additional AWACS either, sadly they are not on the list (A50 Phalcons already ordered) and might be delayed for new indigenous AWACS developments.

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## sancho

Weapons on offer for Indian Rafales:

- AIM 9X / AIM 120D
- Paveway LGB / JDAM PGM
- HARM / HARPOON

- R73 / R77
- Kh 31 
- Brahmos M 

- Python V / Derby
- SPICE 

Brimstone was on offer, but might have been gone now, after high integration costs were asked. MBDA also is offering AASM 125 and 1000, although both might have low chances in India compared to their Israeli counterparts.

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## Sergi

sancho said:


> The tankers are not, since offensive strike capability has far more importance. I wouldn't mind additional AWACS either, sadly they are not on the list (A50 Phalcons already ordered) and *might be delayed for new indigenous AWACS developments*.


No they are not delayed. They have green signal for follow on. But in current fiscal. So say order will go in two months of new GOI. 
Source is chai vala

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## A.P. Richelieu

rockstarIN said:


> Are we paying us dollars to russia



You should order a couple of hundred PAK-FA's from Russia, then You pay with VISA/AmEX.
They can't cash in US Credit Cards (due to Crimea), so You get the planes for free .


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## Abingdonboy

he-man said:


> thats a fact


No it's not, in fact the facts state otherwise.......


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## he-man

Abingdonboy said:


> No it's not, in fact the facts state otherwise.......



Oh u will know when the new budget is presented.
I do hope I am wrong from the bottom of my heart.

We need to streamline the process


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## DacterSaab

sancho said:


> Weapons on offer for Indian Rafales:
> - AIM 9X / AIM 120D
> - Paveway LGB / JDAM PGM
> - HARM / HARPOON
> - R73 / R77
> - Kh 31
> - Brahmos M
> - Python V / Derby
> - SPICE
> Brimstone was on offer, but might have been gone now, after high integration costs were asked. MBDA also is offering AASM 125 and 1000, although both might have low chances in India compared to their Israeli counterparts.



What about Meteor?


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## sancho

DacterSaab said:


> What about Meteor?



That list only includes weapons that are not already available, or under integration to Rafale now. METEOR is under integration and will be available for IAF from 2018 onwards.


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## halloweene

sancho said:


> That list only includes weapons that are not already available, or under integration to Rafale now. METEOR is under integration and will be available for IAF from 2018 onwards.


first shoot "live" feb 2015

Apart from that, Dassault announces a world first on their web tv for saturday

A world premiere - Saturday, April 12th | Dassault Aviation WebTV

Apparently Rafale is concerned . make your guess (i have mine, but would be too nice)


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## halloweene

French AF will deply 3 rafales in India for next Garuda exercise (May 5-16) so as to showcase Rafale capabilities


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## halloweene

Web TV Dassault Aviation, acteur majeur de l'industrie aéronautique mondiale

Enjoy ride, first ever patrol between AI and human piloted patrol. More images to come, more spectacular


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## Abingdonboy

halloweene said:


> Web TV Dassault Aviation, acteur majeur de l'industrie aéronautique mondiale
> 
> Enjoy ride, first ever patrol between AI and human piloted patrol. More images to come, more spectacular


That is very cool! Excellent PR there......


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## Yzd Khalifa

halloweene said:


> French AF will deply 3 rafales in India for next Garuda exercise (May 5-16) so as to showcase Rafale capabilities



I love the Rafale 

Our Navy should get its hand on 55 of these. 

With our special relations with France, We must go for it along with three more Franco-made equipments.


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## Luftwaffe

Yzd Khalifa said:


> I love the Rafale
> 
> Our Navy should get its hand on 55 of these. With our special relations with France, We must go for it along with three more Franco-made equipment.



It is a good aircraft but if you are to save money invest in Sea Gripen from costs perspective yet a very advanced aircraft to be in its category.


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## Abingdonboy

Luftwaffe said:


> It is a good aircraft but if you are to save money invest in Sea Gripen from costs perspective yet a very advanced aircraft to be in its category.


Come on! The Saudis aren't going to let a little thing like money get in the way if their military purchases. They have the luxury of being able to purchase almost anything they want.


Gripen-NG is a cost effective fighter for sure but loses out to the Rafale across the board as far as capabilities go. If you want the best you have to shell out the big bucks. You get what you pay for at the end of the day.


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## Yzd Khalifa

Luftwaffe said:


> It is a good aircraft but if you are to save money invest in Sea Gripen from costs perspective yet a very advanced aircraft to be in its category.



No, Sweden isn't a partner we could rely on. We will never make an agreement with them - although they did offer several equipments in the past -

Finance isn't everything when it comes to national security. 


Abingdonboy said:


> Come on! The Saudis aren't going to let a little thing like money get in the way if their military purchases. They have the luxury of being able to purchase almost anything they want.
> 
> 
> Gripen-NG is a cost effective fighter for sure but loses out to the Rafale across the board as far as capabilities go. If you want the best you have to shell out the big bucks. You get what you pay for at the end of the day.



The Gripen is inferior compared to the Rafale, and that's a fact. 


@Gabriel92


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## jarves

621 pages and the deal has not been finalised yet


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## SQ8

And Pakistanis are accused of needless speculation and fantasy . From plain news,and something known as common sense, it is clear that the deal is put off until a new government comes in. There are many reasons for this.. the new GoI could be aggressive towards past policies in an effort to whitewash its predecessor and cancel or review the deal(delaying it further) , A new government signing the deal would absolve the current one of any problems(if it goes sour)..and so on. Secondly, the government requires a smooth sailing for elections and signing a $20 billion plus deal give your opposition a lot of political ammo.

The Rafale or MMRCA is not the holy grail though, it is built around IAF requirements and if the IAF finds itself unable to meet its requirements(or revised req...which it does yearly) with the deal then it can go for something else. I find this unlikely.. from a very businessman point of view.

Every deal goes through a cost analysis and the whole feasibility thing.. where NPVs are taken(even if in some other name and so on). The IAF probably gamed out other alternatives to putting its $20 billion elsewhere(quick FGFA,LCA Mk2, AMCA etc etc) and the benefits it would bring.. and at the end arrived at the MMRCA program. So unless heaven forbid there is a massive natural disaster in India that wreaks its economy.. I would consider the MMRCA deal safe(if albeit prone to more delays) .


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## Storm Force

I have been the biggest cynic of Rafale over the last 18 months posting numerous threads that i felt it would be cancelled or massivelly delayed.

TODAY i have reasessed the current scenario and changed my opinion and am certain the deal will be signed and very importantly it will be signed before the Autumn of this year.

There are several very good reasons for this.

1. Both the french and the indians are too far up the garden path to let this fail too much time and money spent making this happen.

2. IAF is in a terrible state about to phase out 320 obsel;ete MIG21/27 fighters by 2018 literally half their fleet. LCA tejas going along at typical indian snails pace the Rafale will have to come. There is no other credible choice

3. The cost intially seems high TOO HIGH but this is country that paid USA $4.5 BILLION for 10 Transport planes and $2.7 billion for a russian scrapped scarrier. SO $24 billion TO BUY 125 of the worlds most advanced fighters with TOT will not scare the indians.

4. IAF premier fighter the SU30MKI is no longer state of the art as it was in 2004 surpassed and overtaken by euro canrards , F35 and soon J20 iaf NEEDS a kick *** tip of the spear multi roler to give IAF the state of art fighter until FGFA arrive in 10 years time. Rafale is needed for hundred different reasons.

FOR THIS REASON it will be coming SOON


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## Luftwaffe

Yzd Khalifa said:


> No, Sweden isn't a partner we could rely on. We will never make an agreement with them - although they did offer several equipments in the past -
> 
> Finance isn't everything when it comes to national security.
> 
> The Gripen is inferior compared to the Rafale, and that's a fact.



Hi, I would have replied but this is not a Thread for that...If saudi goverment was interested in Rafale and cost was not the problem they would have dumped Typhoon deal in favor of Rafale including funding for a more powerful engine and other Technologies Transfer...The Typhoon program is not dead in coming years infact by 2020 Typhoons would have been in position to have everything Rafale has little bit of edge in different departments so you should not be dishearten I have full confidence Typhoon would turn out to be heavy weight in time...I tell you throw as much more money and see BAE would come up with even better...the Block 20 EOC 3 will commence so the program is not becoming dead by 3-5 years it should satisfiy the customers greatly.



Abingdonboy said:


> Come on! The Saudis aren't going to let a little thing like money get in the way if their military purchases. They have the luxury of being able to purchase almost anything they want.
> 
> Gripen-NG is a cost effective fighter for sure but loses out to the Rafale across the board as far as capabilities go. If you want the best you have to shell out the big bucks. You get what you pay for at the end of the day.



I am not sure how you perceive saudi goverment as if whatever they want they throw money at without consolations and professional evaluations. I said it before if Rafale was of a great benefit they would have gone to french for it and maybe even more F-15s would have been dropped...even a radical plan why Rafale when F-15 with excellent capabilities for A2A/A2G can do the job very well and is still relative cheaper than Rafale and comes with much wider range of weapons suite plus the infrastructure is in place.

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## Abingdonboy

Storm Force said:


> SO $24 billion TO BUY 125



Wow, your figures are off- even the order numbers! 




Oscar said:


> And Pakistanis are accused of needless speculation and fantasy . From plain news,and something known as common sense, it is clear that the deal is put off until a new government comes in. There are many reasons for this.. the new GoI could be aggressive towards past policies in an effort to whitewash its predecessor and cancel or review the deal(delaying it further) , A new government signing the deal would absolve the current one of any problems(if it goes sour)..and so on. Secondly, the government requires a smooth sailing for elections and signing a $20 billion plus deal give your opposition a lot of political ammo.
> 
> The Rafale or MMRCA is not the holy grail though, it is built around IAF requirements and if the IAF finds itself unable to meet its requirements(or revised req...which it does yearly) with the deal then it can go for something else. I find this unlikely.. from a very businessman point of view.
> 
> Every deal goes through a cost analysis and the whole feasibility thing.. where NPVs are taken(even if in some other name and so on). The IAF probably gamed out other alternatives to putting its $20 billion elsewhere(quick FGFA,LCA Mk2, AMCA etc etc) and the benefits it would bring.. and at the end arrived at the MMRCA program. So unless heaven forbid there is a massive natural disaster in India that wreaks its economy.. I would consider the MMRCA deal safe(if albeit prone to more delays) .




Sir the deal is NOT $20BN, this is a fallacy that some ignorant types like to flout. And all the other things you have said have been accepted for some time now both the Indian and French sides have said as much. The Rafale contract will only be signed by the next GoI but 100% before the end of 2014- I believe the CEO of Dassualt said sometime in the Summer. 


The MMRCA process has been clean throughout that is undeniable so there is no ammo in which to scupper the deal with.



Luftwaffe said:


> I am not sure how you perceive saudi goverment as if whatever they want they throw money at without consolations and professional evaluations. I said it before if Rafale was of a great benefit they would have gone to french for it and maybe even more F-15s would have been dropped...even a radical plan why Rafale when F-15 with excellent capabilities for A2A/A2G can do the job very well and is still relative cheaper than Rafale and comes with much wider range of weapons suite plus the infrastructure is in place.


Of course they will conduct a professional analysis but what I was saying is that the Saudis/RSAF are not constrained by the same sort of finical restraints as other AFs around the world. The Gripen is pretty much tailored to the latter, its main selling point is affordability/cost effectiveness. As far as capabilities go the Rafale has it beat.


As for the F-15 vs Rafale, I would venture that political considerations come into play here, almost the entire Saudi military inventory is of US origin and the USG has a lot of sway with the royal family.

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## IND151

Storm Force said:


> I have been the biggest cynic of Rafale over the last 18 months posting numerous threads that i felt it would be cancelled or massivelly delayed.
> 
> TODAY i have reasessed the current scenario and changed my opinion and am certain the deal will be signed and very importantly it will be signed before the Autumn of this year.
> 
> There are several very good reasons for this.
> 
> 1. Both the french and the indians are too far up the garden path to let this fail too much time and money spent making this happen.
> 
> 2. IAF is in a terrible state about to phase out 320 obsel;ete MIG21/27 fighters by 2018 literally half their fleet. LCA tejas going along at typical indian snails pace the Rafale will have to come. There is no other credible choice
> 
> 3. The cost intially seems high TOO HIGH but this is country that paid USA $4.5 BILLION for 10 Transport planes and $2.7 billion for a russian scrapped scarrier. *SO $24 billion TO BUY 125 of the worlds most advanced fighters with TOT will not scare the indians*.
> 
> 4. IAF premier fighter the SU30MKI is no longer state of the art as it was in 2004 surpassed and overtaken by euro canrards , F35 and soon J20 iaf NEEDS a kick *** tip of the spear multi roler to give IAF the state of art fighter until FGFA arrive in 10 years time. Rafale is needed for hundred different reasons.
> 
> FOR THIS REASON it will be coming SOON



From where yo got this figure.

The Rafael deal will cost us 12 to 15 billion dollars.


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## halloweene

Acccording to latest Air&Cosmos issue, Snecma would agree on a 100% indian built M88 engine. They are in talk with an indian subcontractor specialist in high precision forgeing (makes parts for BMW)



> The Rafael deal will cost us 12 to 15 billion dollars.


. Very hard to say honestly. ToT (training ppl etc. and setting up a production line isnt cheap...

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## IND151

halloweene said:


> *Acccording to latest Air&Cosmos issue, Snecma would agree on a 100% indian built M88 engine. They are in talk with an indian subcontractor specialist in high precision forgeing (makes parts for BMW)*
> 
> . Very hard to say honestly. ToT (training ppl etc. and setting up a production line isnt cheap...



Kindly give source for claim.


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## halloweene

Air&Cosmos n° 2401, April 11th 2014 page 3. Section "Confidentiel"


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## sancho

halloweene said:


> French AF will deply 3 rafales in India for next Garuda exercise (May 5-16) so as to showcase Rafale capabilities



So finally an exercise with the Rafale, wonder what else will be part of the detachment? AWACS possibly like the Brits did, when they came with the EF.


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## sancho

Luftwaffe said:


> If saudi goverment was interested in Rafale and cost was not the problem they would have dumped Typhoon deal in favor of Rafale



They were interested, since the Rafale was a contender in the Saudi competition back then too, but political reasons (close relations to the UK in the first place) and corruption issues, which made the EF the first choice and not any technical capabilities of the fighter.


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## Donatello

sancho said:


> They were interested, since the Rafale was a contender in the Saudi competition back then too, but political reasons (close relations to the UK in the first place) and corruption issues, which made the EF the first choice and not any technical capabilities of the fighter.



Saudis already had Tornado, so it made natural choice to go for another Brit-German aircraft and to milk the defense firms in those nations to the max.


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## sancho

Donatello said:


> Saudis already had Tornado, so it made natural choice to go for another Brit-German aircraft and to milk the defense firms in those nations to the max.



Not if you have operational requiments in mind, but as we all know, that has not much importance for there. In operational terms, the offered Rafale was far better suited to replace their Tornados and to remain with a credible cruise missile attack capability.


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## Donatello

sancho said:


> Not if you have operational requiments in mind, but as we all know, that has not much importance for there. In operational terms, the offered Rafale was far better suited to replace their Tornados and to remain with a credible cruise missile attack capability.



How is Rafale far better? Why did nations other than Saudi choose Typhoons over Rafale? Clearly, it was not far better. Both are excellent aircraft with room for upgrade. However, since Rafale has yet to see an export order, it seems limited in upgradation compared to Typhoon.


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## Abingdonboy

Donatello said:


> How is Rafale far better? Why did nations other than Saudi choose Typhoons over Rafale? Clearly, it was not far better. Both are excellent aircraft with room for upgrade. However, since Rafale has yet to see an export order, it seems limited in upgradation compared to Typhoon.


In the Strike/A2G role(s) the Rafale is FAR better than the EFT.


As for why the Saudis went for the EFT over the Rafale -ehem- -ehem-:


Al-Yamamah arms deal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



BAE pays fines of £285m over arms deal corruption claims | World news | theguardian.com



BAE admits guilt over corrupt arms deals | World news | The Guardian


Britain yields to bribery and corruption / ISN



This is quite well known/reported here in the UK.


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## Donatello

Abingdonboy said:


> In the Strike/A2G role(s) the Rafale is FAR better than the EFT.
> 
> 
> As for why the Saudis went for the EFT over the Rafale -ehem- -ehem-:
> 
> 
> Al-Yamamah arms deal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> 
> BAE pays fines of £285m over arms deal corruption claims | World news | theguardian.com
> 
> 
> 
> BAE admits guilt over corrupt arms deals | World news | The Guardian
> 
> 
> Britain yields to bribery and corruption / ISN
> 
> 
> 
> This is quite well known/reported here in the UK.




Everyone knows about the bribery case. 

In any case, how can you say Rafale 'is far better' (other than that India might sign the deal) ?? If you are referring to the Libyan combat ops, they were done by Tornados and Mirage as well.

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## Abingdonboy

Donatello said:


> Everyone knows about the bribery case.
> 
> In any case, how can you say Rafale 'is far better' (other than that India might sign the deal) ?? If you are referring to the Libyan combat ops, they were done by Tornados and Mirage as well.


For a multitude of reasons that are well known and well discussed here and around the net. India has VERY little to do with it. 


I could talk about the Swiss AF's findings, what weapons and capabilities have been integrated and proven on both a/c but @sancho can take care of this for you, I'm too tired to sir.



As for the Libyan campaign yes I could point to this, and why not? As you said Tornados were used and what were they doing there you might ask- well providing targeting data for the EFTs who were unable to do this themselves of course! 

I could also point to the fact the Rafale has been deployed to Afghanistan where the EFT has not and the Mali campaign where the Rafale again proved itself.


Maybe one day the EFT will be as good as the Rafale with Tranche Nth but with the finical issues the EFT consortium is facing, the lack of a clear and coherent road map coming out of the member nations and the fact they failed to sign up India that was willing and able to pay for the enhancement of the EFT's A2G capabilities, this is a LONG way down the road if ever.

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## sancho

Donatello said:


> How is Rafale far better? Why did nations other than Saudi choose Typhoons over Rafale? Clearly, it was not far better.



We have discussed this in this thread often enough, so just in short. In any real fighter competition where the EF, Rafale and other fighters were evaluated against each other, the Rafale was always shortlisted based on technical reasons, while the EF in most cases was rejected, or lost out at the end just like the EF on cost, or political reasons. 

Fighter procurements in most cases have a political importance, so selecting a fighter as the winner doesn't automatically mean it is technically or operationally more capable, as shown in the Saudi case.

Thirdly, every country has it's own technical / operational requirements and while the one country might have higher importance on propper multi role capabilities, other are ok with air superiority.

Wrt the EF customer, Austria made a selection to buy mainly 2nd hand and very early EFs and they already regret it, because of the high costs and limited upgradability. Oman selected EF after adding more F16s to their fleet, so they selected a twin engine medium class fighter for air superiority, on top of a single engine multi role fighter at the lo end. A reasonable selection, especially if it comes with some additional UK benefits thanks to their relations with them. Saudi as said, political reasons and corruptions, so non of these exports were based on technical advantages of the EF, in most cases it wasn't even a real competition that went to the selection of the EF. 

Wrt to future upgrads, the EF productionline will end around 2017 if no further export orders come. The partners already struggle to fund even basic upgrades and with the end of the production, not even the consortium companies will focus much on upgrades anymore, unless somebody pays for it. But with F35 coming in for UK and ITA, while ESP and ITA are facing finacial and economic problems, there is simply no money to waste anymore.
France on the other side will produce the Rafale at least till 2020, has already allocated funds for the next upgrade and has no alternative to Rafale till 2030, so has to keep upgrading it. 

Wrt why the Rafale is clearly better for the Saudis, simply because it aready offered what the Saudis are paying extra to upgrade the EF today. Targeting pod, 250Kg LGB / PGM, Cruise Missile. Their Tornado had these features, so going by technical / operational reasons, you obviously choose a successor, that is able to provide at least the same capabilities, if not better. The EF T2 that the Saudis got, didn't offered these capabilities, the EW of Rafale is better, offers more payload, weapon options and a longer range. All these are clear points in favour for Rafale, when you compare it as a replacement for Tornados, while it's capabilities in A2A would come on top of this.

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## Storm Force

With the 4th largest Air force in the world signing a massive deal for rafale minimum 126 fighters prehaps 189 fighters the Dassult rafale fututre will have completely catapulted to another level.

For rafale its a massive cash injection worth tens of billons dollars
Massive credibility when a real proper combat experienced air power like india,s makes the rafale it bench mark fighter of choice over typhoon and usa legacy teen fighters.
The prestige of india selecting this MMRCA is huge win win for Dassult.

This is why the FRENCH will nerver scupper the deal now and india will squeeze every drop they can out of Dassult


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## Echo_419

Donatello said:


> Everyone knows about the bribery case.
> 
> In any case, how can you say Rafale 'is far better' (other than that India might sign the deal) ?? If you are referring to the Libyan combat ops, they were done by Tornados and Mirage as well.



Well I think the Saudis went after EF bcauz they were operating a Brit Aircraft so it makes sense to go after the same type 
Less cost,training common spares 
& people should know that Rafael is better becauz IAF chose it 
India favored an aircraft on pure merits base & Saudis also consider merit but deplomatic relations & other stuff comes before it 
PS I don't know much about this stuff still learning


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## Donatello

Echo_419 said:


> Well I think the Saudis went after EF bcauz they were operating a Brit Aircraft so it makes sense to go after the same type
> Less cost,training common spares
> & people should know that Rafael is better becauz IAF chose it
> India favored an aircraft on pure merits base & Saudis also consider merit but deplomatic relations & other stuff comes before it
> *PS I don't know much about this stuff still learning*


Then whatever you wrote gets disqualified from discussion anyway.

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## sancho

Echo_419 said:


> Well I think the Saudis went after EF bcauz they were operating a Brit Aircraft so it makes sense to go after the same type
> Less cost,training common spares



The Tornado and the EF are not the same type, they don't share training, or even spares to reduce costs, the only commonality is aimed to be the weapon pack and that only if the Saudis fund the integration, so there is no relation or even cost saving for them.

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## Abingdonboy

Echo_419 said:


> Well I think the Saudis went after EF bcauz they were operating a Brit Aircraft so it makes sense to go after the same type
> Less cost,training common spares
> & people should know that Rafael is better becauz IAF chose it
> India favored an aircraft on pure merits base & Saudis also consider merit but deplomatic relations & other stuff comes before it
> PS I don't know much about this stuff still learning


The Panvia Tornada itself isn't even a solely Brit fighter but a German, Italian and British collaborative effort. The main reason behind the Saudis going for the EFT is because they were BRIBED to do so. As has been pointed out by @sancho, in EVERY contract the Rafale and EFT have gone head to head in the Rafale has come out ahead on purely TECHNICAL grounds. The fact this hasn't translated into export orders is a completely different issue but rest assured has NOTHING to do with the Rafale being in any way inferior to the EFT. In fact it may be Dassault having the last laugh when the Rafale is still in production and pursuing a upgrade road map but the EFT is out of production and only n % what it could have been.


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## halloweene

I sincerely think you are missing one point, 60 years old relationship. After such a long time, you can expect trust and respect from both sides. Apart from that, there are certainly issues in negociations. But when the deal comes up, it will be a good deal for both sides.
Thats my opinion, others are welcome of course.

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## Span

Abingdonboy said:


> As has been pointed out by @sancho, in EVERY contract the Rafale and EFT have gone head to head in the Rafale has come out ahead on purely TECHNICAL grounds.



Didn't the IAF rank EF above Rafale on the basis of the technical evaluation trials they carried out? 

Unless, of course, I'm missing something.


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## DacterSaab

Storm Force said:


> With the 4th largest Air force in the world signing a massive deal for rafale minimum *126* fighters prehaps *189* fighters the Dassult rafale fututre will have completely catapulted to another level.



Is it not possible for the numbers to increase?


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## DacterSaab

Echo_419 said:


> people should know that Rafael is better becauz IAF chose it



I think you should know,
1. Rafale is better than EFT in A2G
2. EFT is better than Rafale in A2A
3. EFT has lower RCS
4. Rafale has AESA and SPECTRA
5. Rafale can carry more stuff to farther targets
6. Rafale is cheaper

Indian MMRCA required IAF to replace ageing Mig-27 and Jaguar bombers so A2G capabilities were of prime importance the only jets meeting all A2G requirements were Rafale and F-18E/F. Rafale was technologically more advanced and transferred higher amount of technology also compared Boeing, Dassault was already present in Indian market making it comparatively easier for it to meet the high offset requirement of the deal also they had already supplied IAF with Mirage-2000 which really made its mark on the IAF during Kargil they wanted to go ahead and purchase more of them but the MOD decided to go for an open tender initial RFI was not sent to Boeing it joined the tender later after getting consent from US govt. where it was made perfectly clear that there would be restrictions. EFT on the other hand made it to the final due to it being the most technologically advanced fighter.


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## sancho

Span said:


> Didn't the IAF rank EF above Rafale on the basis of the technical evaluation trials they carried out?
> 
> Unless, of course, I'm missing something.



Nope, just false media reports from EF partner countries came up with that.



DacterSaab said:


> Is it not possible for the numbers to increase?



Sure, you can always buy more, but you have to look at the requirement of IAF first and how many fighters needs to be replace, or how many other fighters are coming in too. IAF basically will induct LCA, Rafale and FGFA roughly at the same time, so if there is a need for more fighters, it can be any of them, mainly depending on the available funds.



DacterSaab said:


> I
> Indian MMRCA required IAF to replace ageing Mig-27 and Jaguar bombers so A2G capabilities were of prime



MMRCA will not replace any Jaguars, only Mig 21s and "some" Mig 27 squads (most of them will be replaced by MKIs), strike had surely an importance, but IAF looked at high performance at both sides and short listed the 2 fighters with the best A2A performance, but at the same time also the once with the best stand off missiles on offer (although the EF still needs to integrate it). In theory they even wanted maritime attack capability, but I guess that will have no importance anymore. They won't buy Rafale with Exocet, nor will they pay extra for all the changes on the EF to make it useful in maritime attack roles. With the upgrades of Mig 29s and the newly raised MKI squads in the coastal area, that role should be covered anyway.


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## IND151

This is not to say, however, that Rafale’s own impressive qualities had nothing to do with its selection. The Indian Air Force, which was extensively briefed by the French air force in the autumn, was particularly impressed by its operational performance during the Libyan bombing campaign and in Afghanistan.* Rafale also has a naval variant which could be of future interest to India, given its plans to buy and build aircraft carriers, while the recent decision to upgrade India’s Mirage 2000H fighters will simplify the air force’s logistics chain, as these will share with Rafale many weapons and other equipment*. 

The Indian Air Force also is a satisfied user of long standing of French fighters, going back to the Dassault Ouragan in the 1950s. It was also particularly appreciative of the performance of its Mirages during the 1999 Kargil campaign against Pakistan, and of the support it then obtained from France. During that campaign, India obtained French clearance – and possibly more - to urgently adapt Israeli and Russian-supplied laser-guided bombs to the Mirages, which were thus able to successfully engage high-altitude targets that Indian MiG-23s and MiG-27s had been unable to reach. 

*Rafale was preferred because of lower costs, and the Indian air force's familiarity with French warplanes such as the Mirage*, Bloomberg reported Feb. 1 quoting an Indian source who asked not be named. "Unit-wise, the French plane is much cheaper than the Eurofighter. Moreover, the Indian air force, which is well equipped with French fighters, is favoring the French," the source said. 

*To Indian officials, France’s steadfastness as a military ally contrasted strongly with that of the United States, which stopped F-16 deliveries to Pakistan (but kept the money) when it found it expedient to do so, and slowed or vetoed delivery of components for Light Combat Aircraft that India was developing*. And, of course, the *1998 arms embargo, decreed by the US after India’s nuclear test in May of that year, left a very bad taste in Indian mouths. France, on the contrary, was the only Western nation not to impose sanctions on that occasion*. 

That, Indian sources say, was New Delhi’s real reason for eliminating Boeing and Lockheed Martin from the fighter competition; India has resolved, these sources say, to buy only second-line equipment from the U.S., such as transport (C-17, C-130J) or maritime patrol aircraft (P-8I).* Vital weapons such as missiles and fighters, when they cannot be locally produced, will remain the preserve of France and Russia*. 

Political considerations were also a significant factor playing against Rafale’s final competitor, *the Eurofighter Typhoon. As this aircraft is produced by a consortium of four nations, each with different foreign policies and different attitudes and tolerances to arms exports*, Indian officials were a bit nervous about their ultimate reliability as a single supplier. 

*Germany is a long-standing Indian aviation partner, and a respected role model for Indian politicians, many of whom were educated there*. German companies – essentially the former Messerschmitt-Boelkow-Blohm, now part of EADS - helped Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. develop both the LCA and the Advanced Light Helicopter, now called Dhruv. These links were the reason the Eurofighter bid was led by Germany’s Cassidian, and not BAE Systems, the former colonial power. *But Germany had dithered over technology transfer for LCA, soft-pedaled on ALH tech transfer when German pacifists raised their eyebrows, and coughed when India almost went to war with Pakistan over Kargil and Kashmir*, so in the final analysis it could not be considered a reliable supplier of major weapons. 

*Italy has never sold a major weapon to India, and so could bring neither influence nor reputation to support Eurofighter, while the third partner, Spain, is totally absent from the Indian military landscape*. 

This left BAE Systems as the best-known Eurofighter partner in India, and so by default as its ultimate public face. BAE in 2003 sold £1.5 billion’s worth of Hawk jet trainers to India, with a follow-on, £500 million order in 2010. However, its previous major sale to India was the Jaguar light attack aircraft in the 1970s. In fact, this aircraft was jointly developed by Britain and France on a 50/50 basis, and while it was license-produced by HAL it was never really successful as a fighter. Furthermore, France could claim as much benefit from its Indian career as BAE. 

Taken together, the Eurofighter partner nations posed an even thornier problem: in case of war,* German law prohibits deliveries of weapons and spares, Italian law and public opinions would demand an embargo, while Spanish legislation is murky*. What would happen, Indian politicians must have wondered, if after buying the Eurofighter they went to war? Would spares and weapons be forthcoming, or would they be embargoed? The political risk was obviously too big to take. 

https://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&r...qIQjXIbyK1lk7H60EKAExcA&bvm=bv.64764171,d.bmk

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## Echo_419

sancho said:


> The Tornado and the EF are not the same type, they don't share training, or even spares to reduce costs, the only commonality is aimed to be the weapon pack and that only if the Saudis fund the integration, so there is no relation or even cost saving for them.



I was saying thesame thing 
Since both fighters are Brit they both would share something's in this case weapons package


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## sancho

Echo_419 said:


> I was saying thesame thing
> Since both fighters are Brit they both would share something's in this case weapons package



Again buddy, they don't share anything! Different fighters, for different purpose, with different techs and currently not even the same weapons. Only IF the Saudis fund integration of Paveway IV, Brimstone and Storm Shadow to their EFs, there would be some commonality for them, but only then and only for the weapons, while anything else would be completely different!
It's like saying the Jaguars are the same type as EF, or Rafale, because the manufacturers are the same, when it actually has no relation to them.


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## Dash

Echo_419 said:


> I was saying thesame thing
> Since both fighters are Brit they both would share something's in this case weapons package



+they really wanted to spend a lot of money!


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## halloweene

> 2. EFT is better than Rafale in A2A


 Debatable.


> 3. EFT has lower RCS


 Absolutely wrong, sorry. Common mistake from internet sites citing RCS they dont have any idea at all. Better ask pilots.

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## sancho

Incertitudes sur l'avenir du missile du Rafale produit par Safran - Aéronautique - Défense

More bad news for the Rafale, google translation is bad (maybe @halloweene can help), but if i got it right, the AASM production might end by mid 2016, if no additional order would be placed. A promissing deal for the Saudi Tornados and / or EFs seems to be lost, after they got approval for Paveway IV kits. So without an export of the weapon soon, or additional orders of the French forces, another crucial capability of the Rafale (after the IRST) could be lost.


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## sancho

> *Rafale to fly in Indian skies soon*
> 
> The French Rafale jets will practise combat drills with IAF's top of the line Sukhoi-30 MKIs in Rajasthan this June when the Garuda bilateral exercise resumes after four years.
> 
> This is the first time that the French Rafales, which India is looking to buy, will be pitted against IAF fighters in Indian airspace in war drill. Ex Garuda 2014 will be held during June 2-13 at Jodhpur.
> 
> Besides Sukhoi- 30MKIs, the IAF will field Mig-27s and Mig-21 Bisons for the exercise. The Rafales will operate in an Indian environment against IAF's fighter fleet...
> 
> ...Jodhpur is one of the frontline bases of the IAF. The French will be looking to demonstrate Rafale's capability in an operational scenario. The IAF is looking to buy 126 Rafales.



R.K. Dhowan set to be next Navy chief | Mail Online


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## airmarshal

When will France actually start building Rafales for India? 

Or more specifically, when will the contract be finalized? Talks have been going on for generations now.


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## Abingdonboy

airmarshal said:


> When will France actually start building Rafales for India?
> 
> Or more specifically, when will the contract be finalized? Talks have been going on for generations now.


Later this year...........

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## Sergi

airmarshal said:


> When will France actually start building Rafales for India?
> 
> Or more specifically, when will the contract be finalized? Talks have been going on for generations now.


Generations  

After the contract is signed. And that is something nobody knows for sure when.


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## halloweene

*Air&Cosmos 2402*

*Satcom Ready ?*
_During the formation flight of the nEUROn with Rafale B301 and a Falcon 7X; pics of Rafale B301 show a new antenna . Acording to Air&Cosmos, Dassault would test since late 2013 a new satellite communication system that could be offered to export._

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## sancho

airmarshal said:


> When will France actually start building Rafales for India?
> 
> Or more specifically, when will the contract be finalized? Talks have been going on for generations now.



They already started the production of fighters for "an export customer", which can be delivered between 2016 and 17. Although the aim was India, with the delays of signing the contracts till after the elections, the chances might be higher that Qatar will get them first.

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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> They already started the production of fighters for "an export customer", which can be delivered between 2016 and 17. Although the aim was India, with the delays of signing the contracts till after the elections, the chances might be higher that Qatar will get them first.


Hmmm, I wasn't aware of this- very interesting!


AFAIK, Qatar has publicly said they will hold out until India makes its decision on the Rafale. India still has every opportunity to bag these birds then..

Interesting that both Boeing and Dassulat are building a/c with the _hope_ of selling them to India.


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## Black Eagle 90

I think IAF is not interested in Rafael as they delays shows. Taiwan is facing problem with US for F-16s then there is possibility that Taiwan might go for 200 Rafaels and 200 EF-2000s and sell of their F-16s and Mirage-2000s. Then IAF can gain 57 Mirage-2000s from Taiwan, 150 French ones and some other from Greece and South America.

This will help them to quickly replace MiG-21s, MiG-23s and MiG-27s which might be in 350+ in numbers.


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## Gessler

Black Eagle 90 said:


> I think IAF is not interested in Rafael as they delays shows. Taiwan is facing problem with US for F-16s then there is possibility that Taiwan might go for 200 Rafaels and 200 EF-2000s and sell of their F-16s and Mirage-2000s. Then IAF can gain 57 Mirage-2000s from Taiwan, 150 French ones and some other from Greece and South America.
> 
> This will help them to quickly replace MiG-21s, MiG-23s and MiG-27s which might be in 350+ in numbers.



Taiwan simply cannot afford 200 Rafales and 200 Typhoons.


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## Abingdonboy

Gessler said:


> Taiwan simply cannot afford 200 Rafales and 200 Typhoons.


Do not entertain the ramblings of a mad man!

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## KS

So what stage is the MRCA tender in ? Still where I left off or has anything moved forward ?


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## cloud_9

halloweene said:


> Acccording to latest Air&Cosmos issue, Snecma would agree on a 100% indian built M88 engine. They are in talk with an indian subcontractor specialist in high precision forgeing (makes parts for BMW).


That company might be Bharat Forge part of Kalyani Group.


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## halloweene

KS said:


> New
> So what stage is the


Technical contract wrapped up, workshare agreement, ToT etc also. The rest is political time..


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## sathya

Now, Modi government have to sign it..

I guess reliance would want more share under new government 

Let us see if Modi, wants that money to invest to be invested in India , or gives more share for reliance or just signs it off as such...

Whatever it is we don't want one thing....DELAY
And then buy the same thing later..


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## Sergi

halloweene said:


> Technical contract wrapped up, workshare agreement, ToT etc also. The rest is political time..


When & Whats the source for that ???

Political time was and is never a issue. If thats true then the deal will be sign before August. New DM will sign it ASAP if what you said is ture. My information is neotiations are still not over.


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## he-man

sathya said:


> Now, Modi government have to sign it..
> 
> I guess reliance would want more share under new government
> 
> Let us see if Modi, wants that money to invest to be invested in India , or gives more share for reliance or just signs it off as such...
> 
> Whatever it is we don't want one thing....DELAY
> And then buy the same thing later..



If we want diversification and more contribution from private players then reliance must get the deal and not HAL.

That would be a sensible thing to do


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## indiatester

he-man said:


> If we want diversification and more contribution from private players then reliance must get the deal and not HAL.
> 
> That would be a sensible thing to do


Based on the passion I see from the folks on the forum, I think they must form a company and then ask for a cut of the work

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## he-man

indiatester said:


> Based on the passion I see from the folks on the forum, I think they must form a company and then ask for a cut of the work



Reliance is already doing that.

The problem is HAL that wants to do it all alone,we all know why


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## indiatester

he-man said:


> Reliance is already doing that.
> The problem is HAL that wants to do it all alone,we all know why



But seriously, is there any chance that some of us can open up a company to take up some of this work? 
The armed forces are being steered to spend more in domestic equipment. So there is an opportunity.


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## he-man

indiatester said:


> But seriously, is there any chance that some of us can open up a company to take up some of this work?
> The armed forces are being steered to spend more in domestic equipment. So there is an opportunity.



Na man,its requires very deep pockets.

Imagine tatas and reliance are reluctant to enter this domain.

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## Black Eagle 90

Any possibility of IAF refusing the Rafaels and buy 150 Mirages from France and additional from South American countires, Taiwan and Greece.


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## he-man

Black Eagle 90 said:


> Any possibility of IAF refusing the Rafaels and buy 150 Mirages from France and additional from South American countires, Taiwan and Greece.

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## Span

Black Eagle 90 said:


> Any possibility of IAF refusing the Rafaels and buy 150 Mirages from France and additional from South American countires, Taiwan and Greece.

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## halloweene

Source is annual conference of Dassault CEO. I was there.


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## Abingdonboy

sathya said:


> Now, Modi government have to sign it..
> 
> I guess reliance would want more share under new government
> 
> Let us see if Modi, wants that money to invest to be invested in India , or gives more share for reliance or just signs it off as such...
> 
> Whatever it is we don't want one thing....DELAY
> And then buy the same thing later..


Fck Relaiance, the MoD and Dassualt have come to an agreement on the workshare. Reliance will get some minor sub assembly work and some other bits and pieces, giving them a larger workshare is exactly what Dassualt wants but shouldn't happen.


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## he-man

Abingdonboy said:


> Fck Relaiance, the MoD and Dassualt have come to an agreement on the workshare. Reliance will get some minor sub assembly work and some other bits and pieces, giving them a larger workshare is exactly what Dassualt wants but shouldn't happen.



Ya tell me more genius why **** reliance?

and give another tot job to HAL which is doing tejas,mki and god knows how many things already.

I did not expect a sensible thing from indian govt and I think I was right.


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## Sergi

halloweene said:


> Source is annual conference of Dassault CEO. I was there.


I hope he really meant it and not a trust keeping measure for stock holders. 
Lets wait and see new GOI will take office in few weeks.


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## KS

sathya said:


> I guess reliance would want more share under new government
> x
> Let us see if Modi, wants that money to invest to be invested in India , or gives more share for reliance or just signs it off as such.....



Not the Ambani-adani bullshit in the thread too. Please.


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## sancho

he-man said:


> Reliance is already doing that.
> 
> The problem is HAL that wants to do it all alone,we all know why



Is doing what? They are a complete new player in the defence aero field with close to no experience be it in licence production, let alone R&D and you have not understood what HAL actually does and who decides about the workshare.
According to the rules, Dassault, Thales and Co are free to choose any private or government owned partner to divert offsets and ToT, it is just the final assembly that is restricted to HAL, by MoD and IAF, which both insisted on it when the issue came up last year. So HAL has nothing to do with the decision, neither can any privat company ask MoD for work, since it's Dassault and their partners who decides with whom they want to team up:






These are the bigger known industrial parts, which also shows that there is no focus on HAL only and that privat partners are already chosen and included as well.


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## he-man

sancho said:


> Is doing what? They are a complete new player in the defence aero field with close to no experience be it in licence production, let alone R&D and you have not understood what HAL actually does and who decides about the workshare.
> According to the rules, Dassault, Thales and Co are free to choose any private or government owned partner to divert offsets and ToT, it is just the final assembly that is restricted to HAL, by MoD and IAF, which both insisted on it when the issue came up last year. So HAL has nothing to do with the decision, neither can any privat company ask MoD for work, since it's Dassault and their partners who decides with whom they want to team up:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These are the bigger known industrial parts, which also shows that there is no focus on HAL only and that privat partners are already chosen and included as well.



I wanted reliance to be chief assembly partner too.

It would have lead to them setting up of requisite infrastructure for the job.that investment would have borne fruit later on.

But anyways now I just want the contract to be signed,its already too late.
Each year we waste,we are exposing our pilots to the old mig-21's and 27's and thats bad


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## sancho

he-man said:


> I wanted reliance to be chief assembly partner too.



And I would have wanted TATA, but that doesn't matter, since MoD and IAF are making the rules for their own reasons and the fact that Dassault is selecting their partners.

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## sathya

KS said:


> Not the Ambani-adani bullshit in the thread too. Please.



I don't think what I meant is the crap that u don't like...


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## ziaulislam

That's pretty shallow, French are known to have gone through as many as deals with kick backs/corruption. I don't need.to point out all those deals. 
Kick backs are common in all deals 

Although its my personal believe that it may be less in case of Saudi Arabia as it being an absolute monarchy.
One also has to thing that EFT coukdnt have simply bribed it way in so many countries


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## rockstarIN

he-man said:


> I wanted reliance to be chief assembly partner too.
> 
> It would have lead to them setting up of requisite infrastructure for the job.that investment would have borne fruit later on.
> 
> But anyways now I just want the contract to be signed,its already too late.
> Each year we waste,we are exposing our pilots to the old mig-21's and 27's and thats bad


Reliance have huge influence in centre govt, be it UPA or NDA. There is high chance of quality/price issues with them as same as Gas.


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## he-man

rockstarIN said:


> Reliance have huge influence in centre govt, be it UPA or NDA. There is high chance of quality/price issues with them as same as Gas.



Actually they are demanding the gas hike based on international price only.
I agree reliance is not exactly a saintly company but they have the deepest pockets in india and may actually make a dent in defence market.

Hell I just want a private player be it tatas,mahindras or reliance whatever,i couldn't care less


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## sancho

At the same time, the EF makes some interesting progress too:









> ...
> BAE Systems is currently assessing the aerodynamic characteristics of conformal fuel tanks (CFTs) for the Eurofighter Typhoon combat aircraft, the company announced on 22 April.
> 
> Wind tunnel trials of the twin 'shoulder-mounted' blister tanks are now being held to accelerate the clearance processes for their eventual use on the Typhoon.
> 
> The CFTs, which can be fitted to any Tranche 2/3 aircraft, can carry 1,500 litres each to increase the Typhoon's combat radius by a factor of 25% to 1,500 n miles (2,778 km)...



BAE Systems begins new round of CFT trials for Typhoon - IHS Jane's 360

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## halloweene

Well.... To be sincere, they need to do it because EFT is unable to release heavy cruise missiles form anyother but wet points


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## sancho

halloweene said:


> Well.... To be sincere, they need to do it because EFT is unable to release heavy cruise missiles form anyother but wet points



Of course, but it's THE game changer capability for the EF, the minute it get CFTs, it will not only be able to do cruise missile and heavy strikes to credible distances like Rafale, but even surpass the performance of Rafale in A2A and CAS roles! It already has the superior flight performance, with with the reduced drag and RCS it will gain much benefits over a Rafale with standard external loads.

As I said earlier, with the delays of the MMRCA on the one hand and the possible improvements on the other, the EF suddenly begins to look more attractive than before. The overall costs might be reduced too, since Storm Shadow, Brimstone and possibly even the AESA might at least partially be funded by the Saudis. Things that earlier required Indian funds, while on the other side HMS, IRST production, Litening integration and maybe even a new PGM might mean additional costs for India and the Rafale.

Personally I think the EF also offers the better potential for a „Silent“ version, with weapon / missile bays, rather than external weapon pods, like Dassault plans for Rafale. CFTs would then be another crucial benefit for such a varient, especially since they offer a useful fuel capacity unlike Rafales CFTs. So they would have a big impact for the EF, but until more partners than just the Brits want it, it might take time.


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## kaykay

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/459337254419595264


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## halloweene

sancho said:


> Of course, but it's THE game changer capability for the EF, the minute it get CFTs, it will not only be able to do cruise missile and heavy strikes to credible distances like Rafale, but even surpass the performance of Rafale in A2A and CAS roles! It already has the superior flight performance, with with the reduced drag and RCS it will gain much benefits over a Rafale with standard external loads.
> 
> As I said earlier, with the delays of the MMRCA on the one hand and the possible improvements on the other, the EF suddenly begins to look more attractive than before. The overall costs might be reduced too, since Storm Shadow, Brimstone and possibly even the AESA might at least partially be funded by the Saudis. Things that earlier required Indian funds, while on the other side HMS, IRST production, Litening integration and maybe even a new PGM might mean additional costs for India and the Rafale.
> 
> Personally I think the EF also offers the better potential for a „Silent“ version, with weapon / missile bays, rather than external weapon pods, like Dassault plans for Rafale. CFTs would then be another crucial benefit for such a varient, especially since they offer a useful fuel capacity unlike Rafales CFTs. So they would have a big impact for the EF, but until more partners than just the Brits want it, it might take time.


Well in fact no. Even with CFTs, EFT will still have a much shoter range than a Rafale with 3*2000L external tanks (and remind there were CFT tests on Rafale).
Brimstone integration isn't funded yet (neither scheduled).
Which new PGM? Rafale has a way more variety of A2G weapons than Typhoon.
Btw expect soon a config with 3/4 Storm shadows


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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> Of course, but it's THE game changer capability for the EF, the minute it get CFTs, it will not only be able to do cruise missile and heavy strikes to credible distances like Rafale, but even surpass the performance of Rafale in A2A and CAS roles! It already has the superior flight performance, with with the reduced drag and RCS it will gain much benefits over a Rafale with standard external loads.
> 
> As I said earlier, with the delays of the MMRCA on the one hand and the possible improvements on the other, the EF suddenly begins to look more attractive than before. The overall costs might be reduced too, since Storm Shadow, Brimstone and possibly even the AESA might at least partially be funded by the Saudis. Things that earlier required Indian funds, while on the other side HMS, IRST production, Litening integration and maybe even a new PGM might mean additional costs for India and the Rafale.
> 
> Personally I think the EF also offers the better potential for a „Silent“ version, with weapon / missile bays, rather than external weapon pods, like Dassault plans for Rafale. CFTs would then be another crucial benefit for such a varient, especially since they offer a useful fuel capacity unlike Rafales CFTs. So they would have a big impact for the EF, but until more partners than just the Brits want it, it might take time.


Rafale is a much safer bet for the future, the French are fully behind it. The EFT consortium has lost all direction and the EFT will as a result NEVER live up to its full potential. Indian and French demands as far as future capabilities/ upgrades go are largely in line with one each other.


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## sancho

halloweene said:


> Well in fact no. Even with CFTs, EFT will still have a much shoter range than a Rafale with 3*2000L external tanks.



For the long distance strikes yes, in A2A or CAS however, the difference won't be that much anymore.

*Air superiority*

Rafale:

2-3 x supersonic fuel tanks
4 x METEOR
2 x MICA IR


EF:

2 x CFTs
4 x METEOR at semi stealth and low drag stations
2 x IRIS-T

=> further improved flight performance, thanks to drag reduction
=> very low RCS because of limited wing payload

There are basically only the 2 WVR missiles left, that would add to drag and RCS, while Rafales external loads will have a credible impact in these 2 fields!



*CAS*

Rafale:

2 x subsonic fuel tanks
1 x LDP
2 x triple pylons
6 x GBU 49


EF:

2 x CFTs
1 x LDP
6 x PW IV

=> further improved flight performance, thanks to drag reduction
=> 1000l more fuel than it currently could carry
=> 2 more bombs than it currently could carry with external fuel tanks

The Rafale might have 1000l more fuel, but is far more draggier with that config, which also should increase the RCS too!




halloweene said:


> Brimstone integration isn't funded yet (neither scheduled).
> Which new PGM?



The Saudis haven't fully cleared their weapon package yet, but the Brimstone missiles was one of the weapons they were interested in. The UAE are only waiting for a reason to add AL Tariq to a possible Rafale deal too and now when AASM is in trouble, they surely will pressur Qatar not to take it too. India might have to add SPICE kits to retain precision strike and SEAD capablilty. Most likely the SPICE 2000 similar to M2K, but without AASM smaller versions are likely too and that surely will cost extra.



halloweene said:


> Well in fact no. Even with CFTs, EFT will still have a much shoter range than a Rafale with 3*2000L external tanks.
> and remind there were CFT tests on Rafale



Just that the CFTs of Rafale doesn't hold enough fuel even for A2A roles, only 2300l, while Rafale with 2 Supersonic fuel tanks would have 2500l, with 3 even 3750. EF with CFTs offer 3000l, which equals it's full external fuel load, so no additional fuel needed.
In CAS Rafale with CFTs would still need a 2000l subsonic fuel tank, while EF with CFTs would have enough fuel for most smaller smaller loads, or would just need to add a single supersonic fuel tank. The lack of useful fuel is the reason why you see additional external fuel tanks, on all Rafale concepts with weapon pods, while an EF or the F18 Silent Hornet only need to carry CFTs in most cases.



Abingdonboy said:


> Rafale is a much safer bet for the future, the French are fully behind it.



Till now I had agreed to it, but things are changing! No HMS, no IRST, no Brimstone, possibly not even AASM anymore (the 1000Kg version is still not funded) and a medicore LDP. On the other side the Saudis can make a difference now, even for India, as explained earlier, by reduced costs of EF.
If the consortium funds AESA and CFTs, the EF changes the game and even gets clear operational advantages!


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## Sergi

@sancho: meaning ???


> and remind there were CFT tests on Rafale


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## sancho

Sergi said:


> @sancho: meaning ???



He meant that Rafale has CFTs too and actually a far beyond the EF in that regard, since they even did real flight tests with them:






The problem however is, that it's not really neccessary for Rafale to free hardpoints or add fuel, that's why France never fully funded the development beyond tech demo stage and might not go for it until they also go for weapon pods (beyond 2020).
The EF however needs CFTs to carry any useful heavy loads and that makes them far more likely in the coming years (my guess (2017 to 2020), which then will make it far more capable than today.

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## lingalinga

indiatester said:


> But seriously, is there any chance that some of us can open up a company to take up some of this work?
> The armed forces are being steered to spend more in domestic equipment. So there is an opportunity.



What a terrific idea. Count me in. You can be the brain of the operation (for obvious reason), I will be the brawn.

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## sancho

NATO ramps up defence around the Ukraine with EF's and Rafales:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BmTthiJCQAEgdCh.jpg













Apparently all Rafales are of F3+ standard, if true no AESA radar or DDM NG.

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## halloweene

Sancho do you know the real reason of Typhoon CFTs?


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## sancho

halloweene said:


> Sancho do you know the real reason of Typhoon CFTs?



Real reason? As you said earlier as well, they need it to counter the design flaws of the centerline and inward wingstations. Because without CFTs they can carry heavy weapons only at the wet stations at the wings. Imo they should modify the fighter like Saab did with the Gripen. Remove the gearbay to add more space and hardpoints at the centerliner, which then can hold 2 x heavy weapons or 2 x fuel tanks.


P.S. Did I saw it right, that the Rafales deployed to Poland doesn't have FSO-IR?

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## DacterSaab

sancho said:


> NATO ramps up defence around the Ukraine with EF's and Rafales:
> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BmTthiJCQAEgdCh.jpg



really nice jpg is there any info on russian deployments?


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## halloweene

@sancho exactly.
Rafales got both FSO and radars...
Did you notice the squadron insigna were removed? (From Normandie/Niemen Sqd)


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## sancho

DacterSaab said:


> really nice jpg is there any info on russian deployments?



No, but I didn't want to go OT anyway, was just interesting to see EF and Rafale in propper A2A configs, although I think France is not taking this too seriously, otherwise they would have deployed their latest fighters.



halloweene said:


> @sancho exactly.



But the point remains, with the CFTs they won't only counter their design problems, but also will counter Rafales advantages in load configs.



halloweene said:


> Did you notice the squadron insigna were removed? (From Normandie/Niemen Sqd)


Yes, read about it on the MP forum.


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## Sergi

@sancho @Abingdonboy @sandy_3126 @halloweene
Ok. I got the news from long ears that everything in negotiations is done. And contract is awaiting new GOI. Volume of off-shelf purchase is 46 and 16 being dual seaters and 30 single seater to be delivered in 2 years.
I am kinda skeptical on info anybody share the thought ??? Any thoughts on this news ???

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## Abingdonboy

Sergi said:


> Ok. I got the news from long ears that everything in negotiations is done. And contract is awaiting new GOI.


Confirmed, both GoI and Dassualt CEO have said as much.



Sergi said:


> Volume of off-shelf purchase is 46 and 16 being dual seaters and 30 single seater to be delivered in 2 years.


Hmm, interesting 1/3rd being dual seat, would tally with what the IAF had expressed a little while ago saying they wanted to increase the 2 seat- single seat ratio. 46 off the shelf though? I don't know, am sceptical, for the longest time it has only been 1 SQD off the shelf and I haven't heard any official noise that this was being re-looked at BUT I would be more than happy to see that. I have always wanted the off the shelf number to be around 2 SQDs worth.



Sergi said:


> to be delivered in 2 years.


Again skeptical but would LOVE to be proven wrong! 2016 delivery instead of 2017 would be music to my ears.

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## Sergi

Abingdonboy said:


> Confirmed, both GoI and Dassualt CEO have said as much.
> 
> 
> Hmm, interesting 1/3rd being dual seat, would tally with what the IAF had expressed a little while ago saying they wanted to increase the 2 seat- single seat ratio. 46 off the shelf though? I don't know, am sceptical, for the longest time it has only been 1 SQD off the shelf and I haven't heard any official noise that this was being re-looked at BUT I would be more than happy to see that. I have always wanted the off the shelf number to be around 2 SQDs worth.
> 
> 
> Again skeptical but would LOVE to be proven wrong! 2016 delivery instead of 2017 would be music to my ears.


Please do undersand that I am just providing news from long ears nothing confirm. But I wish its true. I preffer 68 off-shelf in 3 years


> Again skeptical but would LOVE to be proven wrong! 2016 delivery instead of 2017 would be music to my ears.


 bite me  2015. 16 months


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## kaykay

Sergi said:


> Please do undersand that I am just providing news from long ears nothing confirm. But I wish its true. I preffer 68 off-shelf in 3 years
> bite me  2015. 16 months


I hope news is true but anyway 46 Rafales in 2 years is simply not possible. May be first sqd in 2 years and rest after.

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## rockstarIN

The duel seater only for training purpose?


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## Sergi

kaykay said:


> I hope news is true but anyway 46 Rafales in 2 years is simply not possible. May be first sqd in 2 years and rest after.


I am just messenger. I myself is hoping for 64


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## he-man

Sergi said:


> @sancho @Abingdonboy @sandy_3126 @halloweene
> Ok. I got the news from long ears that everything in negotiations is done. And contract is awaiting new GOI. Volume of off-shelf purchase is 46 and 16 being dual seaters and 30 single seater to be delivered in 2 years.
> I am kinda skeptical on info anybody share the thought ??? Any thoughts on this news ???


Too good if true ,man.
Oh boy,u deserve a party

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## SpArK

French AF Rafale & Polish MiG-29 Fulcrum seen together in Malbork

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## Abingdonboy

kaykay said:


> I hope news is true but anyway 46 Rafales in 2 years is simply not possible. May be first sqd in 2 years and rest after.


The first 3-4 deliveries in 2 years would be amazing really. Maybe this is what Dassualt were saying when they said they would be able to fast-track such orders to a foreign AF if orders were made soon from FrAF orders?


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## SpArK

Its done when its done.. until then no excitement, no jumping up and down...

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## Abingdonboy

rockstarIN said:


> The duel seater only for training purpose?


Not at all, for long range strike missions, C&C of a strike group, BDA, ground targeting support etc the 2 seat would be very handy. Similar to how the MKIs work.



Sergi said:


> bite me 2015. 16 months


2015? I can't see that bro.

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## he-man

Abingdonboy said:


> The first 3-4 deliveries in 2 years would be amazing really. Maybe this is what Dassualt were saying when they said they would be able to fast-track such orders to a foreign AF if orders were made soon from FrAF orders?



I am having goosebumps


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## NKVD

sancho said:


> Real reason? As you said earlier as well, they need it to counter the design flaws of the centerline and inward wingstations. Because without CFTs they can carry heavy weapons only at the wet stations at the wings. Imo they should modify the fighter like Saab did with the Gripen. Remove the gearbay to add more space and hardpoints at the centerliner, which then can hold 2 x heavy weapons or 2 x fuel tanks.
> 
> 
> P.S. Did I saw it right, that the Rafales deployed to Poland doesn't have FSO-IR?


@sancho The Mig 29 Fulcrum in this picture Have IRST.I Just Want To Ask Its OLS or any other if OLS Which Version


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## Abingdonboy

he-man said:


> I am having goosebumps


Let's hold back these feelings for a few more weeks/months. Nothing will happen until the next GoI is in place and then it is said to take a few weeks for them to get a grasp on day to day running of things. Maybe the next PM will want to start their term with a bang? In the current climate announcing this deal and the effective scrapping of the outdated Mig-21s would be a pretty huge coup for them straight off the bat.....


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## he-man

Abingdonboy said:


> Let's hold back these feelings for a few more weeks/months. Nothing will happen until the next GoI is in place and then it is said to take a few weeks for them to get a grasp on day to day running of things. Maybe the next PM will want to start their term with a bang? In the current climate announcing this deal and the effective scrapping of the outdated Mig-21s would be a pretty huge coup for them straight off the bat.....



Lets hope for the best dude


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## Abingdonboy

he-man said:


> Lets hope for the best dude


Of course, been doing that for 4 years now 

I'm gonna pull a time out of my backside but I'd wager on the deal being signed before August.


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## sancho

Sergi said:


> Ok. I got the news from long ears that everything in negotiations is done. And contract is awaiting new GOI.


Which is the problem, since it can mean anything, fixing the contract, re-evaluating or even cancelling the competition.



Sergi said:


> Volume of off-shelf purchase is 46 and 16 being dual seaters and 30 single seater to be delivered in 2 years.



Have some doubts on that, 46 would be roughly 2.5 squads, which would be strange and I expect them either to go for 2 or 3 full squadrons, IF they increase the of the shelf procurement.
Also, Dassault is not able to deliver 46 x Rafales in just 2 years, since they have only a rate of production of 11 x per year now. Until the contract is not done, no production increase is likely and even that would take time.

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## he-man

Abingdonboy said:


> Of course, been doing that for 4 years now
> 
> I'm gonna pull a time out of my backside but I'd wager on the deal being signed before August.


Although I was totally against the deal last year,mainly on cost issues but I do realise its probably the best non stealth multirole out there

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## sancho

NKVD said:


> @sancho The Mig 29 Fulcrum in this picture Have IRST.I Just Want To Ask Its OLS or any other if OLS Which Version



Not sure, but most likely the same IAF got through the recent upgrade.

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## he-man

sancho said:


> Not sure, but most likely the same IAF got through the recent upgrade.


That would be ols-uem

Range of about 30-40 km from the rear aspect.

Pretty bad


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## MilSpec

Sergi said:


> @sancho @Abingdonboy @sandy_3126 @halloweene
> Ok. I got the news from long ears that everything in negotiations is done. And contract is awaiting new GOI. Volume of off-shelf purchase is 46 and 16 being dual seaters and 30 single seater to be delivered in 2 years.
> I am kinda skeptical on info anybody share the thought ??? Any thoughts on this news ???



Following was my prediction in October 20 , 2013.



sandy_3126 said:


> To all Indian defence enthusiasts:
> *Rafale has been selected for MMRCA, there will be no change in that, the only bone in the contention will be fly away platforms produced in DB, they will increase to twice thier numbers *(speculation)
> 
> My nostradamus-ish predictions for IAF (which @sancho might disagree to)
> 
> rafale number will remain between 126- 150 and wont go to 180/200 mark
> 
> SU30 numbers will actually increase from 270+ to 335+ with additional orderbook for Super SU 30 (Irkut make), 2nd tranche of MKI upgrade will get Zhuk Aesa and third tranche will get Irbis Aesa radar along with RVV SD/SD
> 
> FGFA PMF will enter production only after 2018
> 
> LCA mk2 will enter production only after MMRCA is set in stone.

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## Sergi

Abingdonboy said:


> 2015? I can't see that bro.


Was kidding bro 
Thats why I was skeptical. Its not possible in 2 years unless prodcution for India is already started which is again unlikely.



sancho said:


> Which is the problem, since it can mean anything, fixing the contract, re-evaluating or even cancelling the competition.


 generally GOI will not roll back on previous GOI's decision. But yes a lot of money is involved so cant say that for sure. July last week or Aug first week.



> Have some doubts on that, 46 would be roughly 2.5 squads, which would be strange and I expect them either to go for 2 or 3 full squadrons, IF they increase the of the shelf procurement.
> Also, Dassault is not able to deliver 46 x Rafales in just 2 years, since they have only a rate of production of 11 x per year now. Until the contract is not done, no production increase is likely and even that would take time.



2 full sqd abd May be half dedicated training Sqd. ????


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## DacterSaab

SpArK said:


> French AF Rafale & Polish MiG-29 Fulcrum seen together in Malbork



sweet pic 

could some1 good at PS please modify it to look like it was all (both fighters and crew uniform) in IAF color? 
i'd be very thankful


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## SnakeBoat

The lonely Rafale A at Le Bourget

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## halloweene

Yes, it is very sad, placed qhere it is noone goese take a look or so few...


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## Abingdonboy

Sergi said:


> 2 full sqd abd May be half dedicated training Sqd. ????
> Last edited: Today at 1:55 AM


For frontline fighters there aren't dedicated training SQDs in the IAF. The pilots follow the 4 step training process- BTT, IJT, AJT and OCU. The OCU is on the type of a/c they will fly. So if you have a M2K pilot he will undergo the 3 initial stages then go and train on a 2 seat M2K from one of the operational M2K SQDs, if you have a MKI pilot he will complete the first 3 stages then go and train on the MKI (already a twin seat) from an MKI SQD. Keeping a state of the art fighter like the MKI or Rafale in purely a training role is a colossal waste of resources and capabilities. 


Something I remember picking up on with ACM Naik (IIRC) was he said when the IAF inducts the Rafale, the first 4-5 units will not go to any operational SQD but till be going to TACDE where they will remain for a food 2-3 years. TACDE will be writing the IAF's operational "play book" on the Rafale as they have done with every other a/c type in IAF service. I mean that would sort of work out the numbers, wouldn't it? An IAF SQD is 18-20 fighters so discount 5/6 units and you are left with 40 and this is about 2 SQDs worth, maybe there's something in this figure after all@sancho?

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## halloweene

TACDE already started writing book, dont you think so?


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## Abingdonboy

halloweene said:


> TACDE already started writing book, dont you think so?


I'm sure they have done some work on this front but they need to have the Rafale in their hands for a period of time to get the main body of of the work done. They can't be expected to work with out the Rafale in their possession.


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## sancho

Sergi said:


> generally GOI will not roll back on previous GOI's decision



But there is no decision on MMRCA so far, all we have is, that Rafale is the prefered fighter and there are prefered negotiations with Dassault and Co.



Sergi said:


> 2 full sqd abd May be half dedicated training Sqd. ????



Doubtful, if they wanted extra trainers, they would had included them in the RFP requirement too, so 18 (= 1 x squad) + additional trainers, but that wasn't the case. Also, increasing the number of twin seaters per squadron, automatically increases the number of trainers too, which makes the procurement of extra fighters for training purpose not useful and just adds costs.

More pics from Poland and Lithuania:

Rafale and Mig 29s






EF, Mig 29 and F15

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## halloweene

First photo is a "chase" btw. Some polish pilots seemed a bit jealous...

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## Span

@sancho: Why is there a trail of smoke coming out of engines of Mig29 only?


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## he-man

Span said:


> @sancho: Why is there a trail of smoke coming out of engines of Mig29 only?



I think only latest rd-33 mk are smokeless


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## Yzd Khalifa

How many years will it take till India signs the contract  ...


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## jha

Abingdonboy said:


> Of course, been doing that for 4 years now
> 
> I'm gonna pull a time out of my backside but I'd wager on the deal being signed before August 2016 with Boeing/Saab



Fixed it for you...


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## Abingdonboy

Yzd Khalifa said:


> How many years will it take till India signs the contract  ...


Silly question really, a procurement of this scale and nature is entirely unprecedented in modern history. There is no set time frame for these things, the complexity of this deal is colossal and throw in a general election right at the end of the talks then you get this situation.



jha said:


> Fixed it for you...


----------



## Yzd Khalifa

Unprecedented in moder history? That's too big to take. We ordered 151 F-15SA after 2 consecutive years of negotiations. 

The reason why India didn't sign till now is due to the fact that it wants a bigger discount, and more ToT. 

By the time the first IAF DR arrival, China will be introducing two - three more aircrafts. 


Abingdonboy said:


> Silly question really, a procurement of this scale and nature is entirely unprecedented in modern history. There is no set time frame for these things, the complexity of this deal is colossal and throw in a general election right at the end of the talks then you get this situation.


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## Abingdonboy

Yzd Khalifa said:


> Unprecedented in moder history? That's too big to take. We ordered 151 F-15SA after 2 consecutive years of negotiations.


I'm sorry but this is an illogical comparison. India's MMRCA IS unique in modern history- 6 competing aircraft from 6 different manufactures with complex offset and ToT requirements. The IAF had to test each individual a/c on over 600 pre-defined parameters both in India and in their home nation, compile a detailed report highlighting their preference that went to the MoD and only then were the bids opened and negations begun. What India has achieved is quite remarkable and the bidders have been nothing but praising of the selection and bidding process similarly other countries (Brazil for e.g.) had expressed interest in the IAF's selection reports for which the IAF has applied a patent to.

In short the MMRCA is unique in defence procurement history. Yes there may be bigger deals in pure dollar terms but in terms of scale and complexity the MMRCA is in a class of one hence the time taken, even that time it has taken is not unreasonable really.




Yzd Khalifa said:


> The reason why India didn't sign till now is due to the fact that it wants a bigger discount, and more ToT.


Nonsense, this really is. India has never asked for a discount, it will pay for what best meets its needs. Similarly the Indian side's demand for ToT has been constant and hasn't fluctuated and is the same as it was outlined in the RFPs.


Please tell me who the F-15SA went up against? How many parameters did the RSAF look at before selecting the SA? What kind of industrial benefits has SA seen? What kind of ToT have you got with them?

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## egodoc222

Yzd Khalifa said:


> How many years will it take till India signs the contract  ...


we dont have oil wells like you!!


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## Black Eagle 90

Will this Rafael tender should be turned in to getting all of the 150 FAF Mirages-2000 with new upgrade???


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## kaykay

Black Eagle 90 said:


> Will this Rafael tender should be turned in to getting all of the 150 FAF Mirages-2000 with new upgrade???


India won't go for second hands aircrafts. Rafale all the way with ToTs.


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## Black Eagle 90

kaykay said:


> India won't go for second hands aircrafts. Rafale all the way with ToTs.


200 Rafael since 2009????


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## kaykay

Black Eagle 90 said:


> 200 Rafael since 2009????


Are you mentally sick? No offense brother, Just asking.


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## Yzd Khalifa

egodoc222 said:


> we dont have oil wells like you!!



Coming from someone who's country is the world's largest military importer, this excerise is null and void.


----------



## Yzd Khalifa

Okay, Since the DR was picked out of six aircrafts, why didn't India sign the contract then?


Abingdonboy said:


> I'm sorry but this is an illogical comparison. India's MMRCA IS unique in modern history- 6 competing aircraft from 6 different manufactures with complex offset and ToT requirements. The IAF had to test each individual a/c on over 600 pre-defined parameters both in India and in their home nation, compile a detailed report highlighting their preference that went to the MoD and only then were the bids opened and negations begun. What India has achieved is quite remarkable and the bidders have been nothing but praising of the selection and bidding process similarly other countries (Brazil for e.g.) had expressed interest in the IAF's selection reports for which the IAF has applied a patent to.
> 
> In short the MMRCA is unique in defence procurement history. Yes there may be bigger deals in pure dollar terms but in terms of scale and complexity the MMRCA is in a class of one hence the time taken, even that time it has taken is not unreasonable really.
> 
> 
> 
> Nonsense, this really is. India has never asked for a discount, it will pay for what best meets its needs. Similarly the Indian side's demand for ToT has been constant and hasn't fluctuated and is the same as it was outlined in the RFPs.
> 
> 
> Please tell me who the F-15SA went up against? How many parameters did the RSAF look at before selecting the SA? What kind of industrial benefits has SA seen? What kind of ToT have you got with them?



According to former Defense Secretary Gates, the F-15SA was picked up out of three options i.e.the DR, a Russian aircraft. The RSAF was more comfortable with theF-15SA given the fact that we have been operating the F-15 for more than 30 years. 

We chose the F-15SA due to the fact that it matched our standards, demands.

As for the industrial benefit we are getting, Al-Salam Aviation industry is taking care building several components, while Boeing is building others.


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## Sergi

Yzd Khalifa said:


> *We chose the F-15SA due to the fact that it matched our standards, demands.*
> .


Thats your keyword


----------



## Yzd Khalifa

Sergi said:


> Thats your keyword



Of course! The specifications of the F-15SA was made by the RSAF. Otherwise we would have rejected it just like the F-16 Block 40 which was offered to us to replace the F-5s.


----------



## Roybot

kaykay said:


> Are you mentally sick? No offense brother, Just asking.



No he is Nishan_101


----------



## Yzd Khalifa

Roybot said:


> No he is Nishan_101



I think he is Nishan. 

I kind of notice a similar attitude.


----------



## Roybot

Yzd Khalifa said:


> I think he is Nishan.
> 
> I kind of notice a similar attitude.



It definitely him, he comes back with this id when his other one gets banned.


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## DacterSaab

OK since i sense some conflict on which fighter was safer for future i have a silly solution.

*LETS MAKE A LIST!!!

Finalists*

_1. Dassault Rafale_

Confirmed
France - 180 ordered (286 planned + 9 optional)

Probable
India - 126 planned + 63 optional (Navy may buy up-to 40 more)
UAE - up-to 60
Qatar - 24 to 36
Kuwait -18 to 22
Poland - 64 (from 2021 on-wards market situation and aircraft configs would be very different by then)
Canada - unknown numbers also it can't be said how much they will be able to escape Uncle Sam's Iron Grip.
Malaysia - unknown numbers
Bahrain - unknown numbers

_2. EADS Eurofighter Typhoon_

Confirmed
U.K. - 160 ordered
Germany -143 ordered
Italy - 96 ordered
Spain - 73 ordered
Saudi Arabia - 72 ordered
Austria -15 delivered
Oman - 12 ordered

Probable
Poland - 64 (from 2021 on-wards market situation and aircraft configs would be very different by then)
Qatar - 24 to 36
Denmark - 24 to 30 (they are also lvl 3 JSF partners)
Peru - 18
Serbia - 6
Canada - unknown numbers also it can't be said how much they will be able to escape Uncle Sam's Iron Grip.
Malaysia, Bahrain - unknown numbers

Unless more are ordered soon production will cease

*Also Ran*

_3. Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet_ 

Confirmed
USA - 515 naval order + 114 Growler variant + small no. operated by USMC
Australia - 24 delivered + 12 Growler planned

Probable
Poland - 64 (from 2021 on-wards market situation and aircraft configs would be very different by then)
Denmark - 24 to 30 (they are also lvl 3 JSF partners)
Canada - unknown numbers also it can't be said how much they will be able to escape Uncle Sam's Iron Grip.
Malaysia, UAE, Greece, Bulgaria, Belgium - unknown numbers

_4. Saab JAS 39 Gripen_

Confirmed
Sweden - 204 ordered
South Africa - 26 ordered
Hungary - 14 leased
Czech Republic -14 leased
Thailand -12 delivered + 6 under consideration
U.K. - few used by test school

Probable
Brazil - 36 to 120
Switzerland - 22
Denmark - 24 to 30 (they are also lvl 3 JSF partners)
Finland, Oman, Slovakia, Croatia, Bulgaria, Serbia and Philipines have also shown interest.

_5. Mikoyan MiG-35_

Confirmed
Russia - 37 planned to be ordered in 2016

Probable
Egypt - 24

_6. General Dynamics F-16 Fighting Falcon_

more than 4500 units in service with 26 different countries world-wide

Brunei, Bulgaria, Columbia, Croatia, Philippines and Romania may also buy.

Please understand this is just raw data put together to aid discussion I do not intend to imply anything.


----------



## he-man

DacterSaab said:


> OK since i sense some conflict on which fighter was safer for future i have a silly solution.
> 
> *LETS MAKE A LIST!!!
> 
> Finalists*
> 
> _1. Dassault Rafale_
> 
> Confirmed
> France - 180 ordered (286 planned + 9 optional)
> 
> Probable
> India - 126 planned + 63 optional (Navy may buy up-to 40 more)
> UAE - up-to 60
> Qatar - 24 to 36
> Kuwait -18 to 22
> Poland - 64 (from 2021 on-wards market situation and aircraft configs would be very different by then)
> Canada - unknown numbers also it can't be said how much they will be able to escape Uncle Sam's Iron Grip.
> Malaysia - unknown numbers
> Bahrain - unknown numbers
> 
> _2. EADS Eurofighter Typhoon_
> 
> Confirmed
> U.K. - 160 ordered
> Germany -143 ordered
> Italy - 96 ordered
> Spain - 73 ordered
> Saudi Arabia - 72 ordered
> Austria -15 delivered
> Oman - 12 ordered
> 
> Probable
> Poland - 64 (from 2021 on-wards market situation and aircraft configs would be very different by then)
> Qatar - 24 to 36
> Denmark - 24 to 30 (they are also lvl 3 JSF partners)
> Peru - 18
> Serbia - 6
> Canada - unknown numbers also it can't be said how much they will be able to escape Uncle Sam's Iron Grip.
> Malaysia, Bahrain - unknown numbers
> 
> Unless more are ordered soon production will cease
> 
> *Also Ran*
> 
> _3. Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet_
> 
> Confirmed
> USA - 515 naval order + 114 Growler variant + small no. operated by USMC
> Australia - 24 delivered + 12 Growler planned
> 
> Probable
> Poland - 64 (from 2021 on-wards market situation and aircraft configs would be very different by then)
> Denmark - 24 to 30 (they are also lvl 3 JSF partners)
> Canada - unknown numbers also it can't be said how much they will be able to escape Uncle Sam's Iron Grip.
> Malaysia, UAE, Greece, Bulgaria, Belgium - unknown numbers
> 
> _4. Saab JAS 39 Gripen_
> 
> Confirmed
> Sweden - 204 ordered
> South Africa - 26 ordered
> Hungary - 14 leased
> Czech Republic -14 leased
> Thailand -12 delivered + 6 under consideration
> U.K. - few used by test school
> 
> Probable
> Brazil - 36 to 120
> Switzerland - 22
> Denmark - 24 to 30 (they are also lvl 3 JSF partners)
> Finland, Oman, Slovakia, Croatia, Bulgaria, Serbia and Philipines have also shown interest.
> 
> _5. Mikoyan MiG-35_
> 
> Confirmed
> Russia - 37 planned to be ordered in 2016
> 
> Probable
> Egypt - 24
> 
> _6. General Dynamics F-16 Fighting Falcon_
> 
> more than 4500 units in service with 26 different countries world-wide
> 
> Brunei, Bulgaria, Columbia, Croatia, Philippines and Romania may also buy.
> 
> Please understand this is just raw data put together to aid discussion I do not intend to imply anything.



Add pakfa too.


----------



## Yzd Khalifa

KSA's Royal Navy is also interested in the Rafale  .. we signed two MOUs. 


DacterSaab said:


> OK since i sense some conflict on which fighter was safer for future i have a silly solution.
> 
> *LETS MAKE A LIST!!!
> 
> Finalists*
> 
> _1. Dassault Rafale_
> 
> Confirmed
> France - 180 ordered (286 planned + 9 optional)
> 
> Probable
> India - 126 planned + 63 optional (Navy may buy up-to 40 more)
> UAE - up-to 60
> Qatar - 24 to 36
> Kuwait -18 to 22
> Poland - 64 (from 2021 on-wards market situation and aircraft configs would be very different by then)
> Canada - unknown numbers also it can't be said how much they will be able to escape Uncle Sam's Iron Grip.
> Malaysia - unknown numbers
> Bahrain - unknown numbers
> 
> _2. EADS Eurofighter Typhoon_
> 
> Confirmed
> U.K. - 160 ordered
> Germany -143 ordered
> Italy - 96 ordered
> Spain - 73 ordered
> Saudi Arabia - 72 ordered
> Austria -15 delivered
> Oman - 12 ordered
> 
> Probable
> Poland - 64 (from 2021 on-wards market situation and aircraft configs would be very different by then)
> Qatar - 24 to 36
> Denmark - 24 to 30 (they are also lvl 3 JSF partners)
> Peru - 18
> Serbia - 6
> Canada - unknown numbers also it can't be said how much they will be able to escape Uncle Sam's Iron Grip.
> Malaysia, Bahrain - unknown numbers
> 
> Unless more are ordered soon production will cease
> 
> *Also Ran*
> 
> _3. Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet_
> 
> Confirmed
> USA - 515 naval order + 114 Growler variant + small no. operated by USMC
> Australia - 24 delivered + 12 Growler planned
> 
> Probable
> Poland - 64 (from 2021 on-wards market situation and aircraft configs would be very different by then)
> Denmark - 24 to 30 (they are also lvl 3 JSF partners)
> Canada - unknown numbers also it can't be said how much they will be able to escape Uncle Sam's Iron Grip.
> Malaysia, UAE, Greece, Bulgaria, Belgium - unknown numbers
> 
> _4. Saab JAS 39 Gripen_
> 
> Confirmed
> Sweden - 204 ordered
> South Africa - 26 ordered
> Hungary - 14 leased
> Czech Republic -14 leased
> Thailand -12 delivered + 6 under consideration
> U.K. - few used by test school
> 
> Probable
> Brazil - 36 to 120
> Switzerland - 22
> Denmark - 24 to 30 (they are also lvl 3 JSF partners)
> Finland, Oman, Slovakia, Croatia, Bulgaria, Serbia and Philipines have also shown interest.
> 
> _5. Mikoyan MiG-35_
> 
> Confirmed
> Russia - 37 planned to be ordered in 2016
> 
> Probable
> Egypt - 24
> 
> _6. General Dynamics F-16 Fighting Falcon_
> 
> more than 4500 units in service with 26 different countries world-wide
> 
> Brunei, Bulgaria, Columbia, Croatia, Philippines and Romania may also buy.
> 
> Please understand this is just raw data put together to aid discussion I do not intend to imply anything.


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## Abingdonboy

Yzd Khalifa said:


> Okay, Since the DR was picked out of six aircrafts, why didn't India sign the contract then?




Just like it took SA 2 years to hash out a deal with the US on the F-15SA which would have involved discussions on costs, spares, training to air and ground crew , weapons, ground support infrastructure, sensor suite etc etc India has had to undertake similar negations with DR except with a great deal more complexity involved as ToT and offsets have slowed down the process significantly not to mention one-off issues like a work-share agreement tussle and the like. I can assure you Boeing isn't obliged to plough back *50% * of the F-15SA deal into Indian industry so these DR-Indian talks have taken around 3 years (deal is now waiting for the next GoI to come in but is effectively closed) which is entirely understandable. 

The 2-3 years before that were used for comparative trails and evaluations between the 6 entrants into the MMRCA competition. Again, the RSAF simply did NOT conduct as an exhaustive evaluative process as the IAF did- they may have conducted a somewhat thorough specifications review based on literature provided by the respective manufacturers but did they ever trail the respective bidding fighters in country or send their test pilots abroad to test the bidders in their home nations? Nope. The fact you can't even name the Russian a/c Robert Gates has speculated took part (btw highly predujiced source of information don't you think considering his nation's a/c won out) says a lot about the opaqueness of the SA election process. Again, I'll ask, did the RSAF have to compile 100s of page reports on each individual a/c judging 600+ parameters? The answer is a flat NO. 


On top of all this throw in the fact India is a parliamentary democracy which has thrown up its own issues from time to time (countless probes have been ordered into the MMRCA selection process because the opposition parties called it into question, getting of absolutely scot-free every time but slowing the process down no end) whilst SA is a monarchy and for the most part would be negotiating with the USG (whom it has VERY close ties to). It doesn't take a genius to see which nation might be more efficient in this regard. 




Yzd Khalifa said:


> As for the industrial benefit we are getting, Al-Salam Aviation industry is taking care building several components, while Boeing is building others.



Again, I'm sorry but this is not comparable to the MMRCA competition at all. The MMRCA RFPs specifically outline that 50% of the contract will be plunged back into Indian industry over time, there is significant ToT and apart from an initial off the shelf delivery of a/c all fighters will be built in India by Indian industry with an increasing level of indigenous content. 

Heck, Indian firms right now make components for Boeing (for F-18 and 787) without the MMRCA even going Boeing's way. 




The F-15SA and MMRCA selection processes are chalk and cheese sir, there really is little to be gained in comparing them. If the media and certain people are unable to comprehend the sheer scale of the MMRCA's selection process then that is entirely their failing. Indians should be nothing but proud of the professional and thorough work that has gone into the MMRCA procurement and India, ultimately, will reap the benefits of this hard work....


Yzd Khalifa said:


> According to former Defense Secretary Gates, the F-15SA was picked up out of three options i.e.the DR, a Russian aircraft. The RSAF was more comfortable with theF-15SA given the fact that we have been operating the F-15 for more than 30 years.

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## sancho

Yzd Khalifa said:


> Okay, Since the DR was picked out of six aircrafts, why didn't India sign the contract then?
> 
> According to former Defense Secretary Gates, the F-15SA was picked up out of three options i.e.the DR



So he knew more than Dassault itself, which never stated that they are in a competition in Saudi? There was no competition even close to be compared to the MMRCA, nor are the industrial requirements even close to be as in the MMRCA, btw didn't your airforce ordered just around 80 new fighters and an upgrade for the older once? India ordered 42 new MKIs and an upgrade for around 100 older MKIs, but that are not 142 new fighters right? 
So you added less fighters than MMRCA's minimum requirement, to the once you already had with barely any similar ToT or offset benefits, which makes only the total price comparable to MMRCA. 

The reasons why the MMRCA is still not fixed are different once, IAF took too long to evaluate and shortlist fighters, which caused that new financial bids of the shortlisted vendors must be issued, the final selection took time and since 2 years we basically wait that the industrial and price negotiations will be done. The problem now is, that it got delayed till the elections and that we now have to wait and see what the outcome of that will be. Nothing will happen before that and what will happen after that is completely open.

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## sancho

DacterSaab said:


> OK since i sense some conflict on which fighter was safer for future i have a silly solution.



You can turn it the other way around too and look at the projected end of the production lines, without additional orders.

The Mig production line is only running for Mig 29Ks and SMTs, not even Russia has ordered Mig 35s (just added a minor order for SMTs to keep the production line open and Egypt is not looking for Mig 35s, but Mi 35 helicopters, news reports confused that) and even the 2016 date is just an estimate.
The F18SH, F16 and F15 production lines are about to end around 2018, same goes for the EF, since the T3B orders of the partners will be cancelled and today most of the partners are trying to divert their T3A orders to other countries, which means no additional EF in numbers.
Gripen C/D production is closed, the E/F will start only by 2018.
Rafale has got 180 confirmed orders and the government decision to limit the fighter fleet to 225, so the production will go on well over 2020.

So the only 2 fighters today with a prospect of a long production and operational time and therefor with the potential of upgraded batches are the Rafale and the Gripen E/F. Any of the other fighters are dependent on what upgrades will be funded by the main operators in future.

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## DacterSaab

he-man said:


> Add pakfa too



Sukhoi PAK-FA/HAL FGFA was never a part of MMRCA and did not match requirements if I add other options 
then it'll have to contain PAK-FA/FGFA, AMCA, JSF, but also Su-34, Su-35, F-2, F-CK1, J-10, JF-17/FC-1, Saeqeh and Qaher cause they are also probabilities that may manifest if IAF decide to go for em.



Yzd Khalifa said:


> KSA's Royal Navy is also interested in the Rafale .. we signed two MOUs



don't mean to be offensive but what will they do with em without a carrier?


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## Yzd Khalifa

DacterSaab said:


> Sukhoi PAK-FA/HAL FGFA was never a part of MMRCA and did not match requirements if I add other options
> then it'll have to contain PAK-FA/FGFA, AMCA, JSF, but also Su-34, Su-35, F-2, F-CK1, J-10, JF-17/FC-1, Saeqeh and Qaher cause they are also probabilities that may manifest if IAF decide to go for em.
> 
> 
> 
> don't mean to be offensive but what will they do with em without a carrier?



Nothing of an offense. If the deal goes through, the Rafale will be used as a shore-based fighter for the navy. 

Many countries operate fighters with carriers, take China as a prime example prior to the introduction of their AC.


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## DacterSaab

sancho said:


> The Mig production line is only running for Mig 29Ks and SMTs, not even Russia has ordered Mig 35s (just added a minor order for SMTs to keep the production line open and Egypt is not looking for Mig 35s, but Mi 35 helicopters, news reports confused that) and even the 2016 date is just an estimate.


I got my info here I think DID is pretty dependable, please correct me if I'm wrong.
All Over Again: Egypt Looks Beyond the USA for New Arms


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## he-man

DacterSaab said:


> Sukhoi PAK-FA/HAL FGFA was never a part of MMRCA and did not match requirements if I add other options
> then it'll have to contain PAK-FA/FGFA, AMCA, JSF, but also Su-34, Su-35, F-2, F-CK1, J-10, JF-17/FC-1, Saeqeh and Qaher cause they are also probabilities that may manifest if IAF decide to go for em.
> 
> 
> 
> don't mean to be offensive but what will they do with em without a carrier?



Oh u were talking about only mmrca ?my bad


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## sancho

Yzd Khalifa said:


> If the deal goes through, the Rafale will be used as a shore-based fighter for the navy.



Which doesn't make any sense, when you have F15s with SLAM-ER, Tornados and soon EFs with Storm Shadows (not to mention that you could simply integrate SLAM-ER to the EFs too). Not even the Saudi Navy would take the Exocet, which means integrating SLAM-ER to Rafale again, but why add a different type of fighter then? Bottom line is, not going to happen unless there is a political importance behind it.



DacterSaab said:


> I got my info here I think DID is pretty dependable, please correct me if I'm wrong.
> All Over Again: Egypt Looks Beyond the USA for New Arms




The reports simply mixed up the designations, they want Mig 29 fighters and Mi 35 helicopters:

Egypt signs $3 billion deal for Russian fighter jets, attack helicopters - World Tribune | World Tribune

Russia, Egypt Reach Initial $3 Bln Arms Deal – Report | Russia | RIA Novosti


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## DacterSaab

he-man said:


> Oh u were talking about only mmrca ?my bad


yeah i highlighted finalists and also rans


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## he-man

DacterSaab said:


> yeah i highlighted finalists and also rans



Oh yaar!


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## DacterSaab

sancho said:


> Which doesn't make any sense, when you have F15s with SLAM-ER, Tornados and soon EFs with Storm Shadows (not to mention that you could simply integrate SLAM-ER to the EFs too). Not even the Saudi Navy would take the Exocet, which means integrating SLAM-ER to Rafale again, but why add a different type of fighter then? Bottom line is, not going to happen unless there is a political importance behind it.


yeah thats what occured to me too F-15SA and EFTs should be able to handle the job why increase logistic problems for such a small number the Navy should choose a fighter already employed by the country unless those fighters can't/limitedly do the job?


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## egodoc222

Yzd Khalifa said:


> Coming from someone who's country is the world's largest military importer, this excerise is null and void.


im not saying we cant afford it...but we can't be in haste... afterall money of us indians is hard earned!!


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## Yzd Khalifa

> Which doesn't make any sense



By whose standards? You? I don't think you're qualified enough to produce such argument.



> when you have F15s with SLAM-ER, Tornados and *soon EFs with Storm Shadows* (not to mention that you could simply integrate SLAM-ER to the EFs too)



As a matter of fact, the Storm Shadows are now fully operational in the RSAF's arsenal.

Saudi Arabia pushes for Storm Shadow integration with Typhoon

In the next few years, we will pull off the Tornados from the front lines. That's why the DR is being considered.




> but why add a different type of fighter then?



It is because the RSNF has an independent Air Arms on its own.



> Bottom line is, not going to happen unless there is a political importance behind it.



We are still waiting till a decision is reached. In any given day, the Saudi-Franco relations is going nowhere but forward. There is no need for political motive when it comes to arms procurement in our book. At the end of the day, we will always introduce what we need the most to enhance our self-defensive capabilities, and that's that. 



sancho said:


> Which doesn't make any sense, when you have F15s with SLAM-ER, Tornados and soon EFs with Storm Shadows (not to mention that you could simply integrate SLAM-ER to the EFs too). Not even the Saudi Navy would take the Exocet, which means integrating SLAM-ER to Rafale again, but why add a different type of fighter then? Bottom line is, not going to happen unless there is a political importance behind it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The reports simply mixed up the designations, they want Mig 29 fighters and Mi 35 helicopters:
> 
> Egypt signs $3 billion deal for Russian fighter jets, attack helicopters - World Tribune | World Tribune
> 
> Russia, Egypt Reach Initial $3 Bln Arms Deal – Report | Russia | RIA Novosti





egodoc222 said:


> im not saying we cant afford it...but we can't be in haste... afterall money of us indians is hard earned!!



No body said so. But your Gov't said, there is no money left in the safe to finalize the contract. If you are going to be handing your hand-earned money to them for the DR, then good for you  ...



DacterSaab said:


> yeah thats what occured to me too F-15SA and EFTs should be able to handle the job why increase logistic problems for such a small number the Navy should choose a fighter already employed by the country unless those fighters can't/limitedly do the job?



Or maybe the Saudis will be waiting for a worth-procuring 5th Gen jet in the near future.


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## Abingdonboy

Yzd Khalifa said:


> No body said so. But your Gov't said, there is no money left in the save to finalize the contract.


No money left LAST YEAR int the 2013-14 FY, the Rafale is budgeted for in THIS FY2014-15.


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## Yzd Khalifa

Abingdonboy said:


> No money left LAST YEAR int the 2013-14 FY, the Rafale is budgeted for in THIS FY2014-15.



Let's hope that the contract will be signed by next year then, as nothing left to be negotiated on but cash.


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## Abingdonboy

Yzd Khalifa said:


> Let's hope that the contract will be signed by next year then, as nothing left to be negotiated on but cash.


The FY2013-2014 where there was no budgetary allowance left for the Rafale ENDED on *March 31st 2014. *
On *April 1st 2014* the FY2014-15 BEGAN where there IS allowance for the Rafale deal. The ONLY thing holding back the signing of the deal now is the General Elections currently being held in India. Once the new Indian Govt is in place by the end of MAY 2014, we can expect the deal to be signed. So really the deal is a few weeks, at most, months from being signed.


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## he-man

Yzd Khalifa said:


> Let's hope that the contract will be signed by next year then, as nothing left to be negotiated on but cash.


Plenty is there for rafale,don't worry

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## Yzd Khalifa

he-man said:


> Plenty is there for rafale,don't worry



I just want to see the DR in the hands of the IAF, then the UAE will fallow suit


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## sancho

Yzd Khalifa said:


> It is because the RSNF has an independent Air Arms on its own.


Now we getting to the real reasons! So there is no operational need, but just some beef between your forces. However, that doesn't mean a different type of fighter will be procured, when you already have the capability and the fighters for it. You simply add numbers and divert them to the navy, so either some of the F15s or order more EFs.



Yzd Khalifa said:


> We are still waiting till a decision is reached. In any given day, the Saudi-Franco relations is going nowhere but forward. There is no need for political motive when it comes to arms procurement in our book. At the end of the day, we will always introduce what we need the most to enhance our self-defensive capabilities, and that's that.



 Yeah sure, because nothing is politically motivated in the KSA. Dassault surely didn't forget how you rejected Rafale in favour for the EF and on what basis that selection was done at the end.


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## Yzd Khalifa

> Just like it took SA 2 years to hash out a deal with the US on the F-15SA which would have involved discussions on costs, spares, training to air and ground crew , weapons, ground support infrastructure, sensor suite



No deal is being sealed so far without ToTs

For Example:

BAE Systems Saudi Arabia in ToT contract with Al-Salam and AEC
Saudi Arabia to Manufacture F-15SA Wings Locally
Saudi's AEC to Develop F-15SA Sub-systems and AMRAAMs
Alsalam builds F-15 parts | Arab News — Saudi Arabia News, Middle East News, Opinion, Economy and more.



> I can assure you Boeing isn't obliged to plough back *50% *of the F-15SA deal into Indian industry



It is up to you to decide which suits your country. To us, we would like to have a full-privatization of our industry. We do allow investments in certain sectors within, otherwise, we wouldn't have nationalized the Saudi Arabian BAE.



> Again, the RSAF simply did NOT conduct as an exhaustive evaluative



Why should we waste time when we already know what suits us the best?

Did it take from the UK 7 years of exhaustive evaluative examinations to procure the F-35? No, same goes with China whenever its mulls to buy a Russian-made warplane.



> they may have conducted a somewhat thorough specifications review based on literature provided by the respective manufacturers but did they ever trail the respective bidding fighters in country or send their test pilots abroad to test the bidders in their home nations? Nope



What makes you think the Saudi didn't? They did sign a MOU with France, the UK, and the US. If they didn't show a true level of seriousness or knowledge, they wouldn't have gone this far, which eventually makes your argument null and void. It is the duty of the MoD R&D's to decide which suits the RSAF and which does't, not the " based on literature provided by the respective manufacturers "

Our ETF will even become ahead of all Typhoon-program partners.



> Again, I'll ask, did the RSAF have to compile 100s of page reports on each individual a/c judging 600+ parameters? The answer is a flat NO.



I don't think the length of the report will determine the outcome of a competition. What you could have done to save time is to lay out your parameters, terms & conditions, and needs.



> The fact you can't even name the Russian a/c Robert Gates has speculated took part (btw highly predujiced source of information don't you think considering his nation's a/c won out) says a lot about the opaqueness of the SA election process.



What the then-Secretary of Defense " Gates " was trying to say in a jest - of course - was on the fact that the US will lose the bid if their requirements isn't matched, and they might consider option B or even C. Rape, elections, terrorism, and poverty has nothing to do with it. It just is as simple as that.





Abingdonboy said:


> Just like it took SA 2 years to hash out a deal with the US on the F-15SA which would have involved discussions on costs, spares, training to air and ground crew , weapons, ground support infrastructure, sensor suite etc etc India has had to undertake similar negations with DR except with a great deal more complexity involved as ToT and offsets have slowed down the process significantly not to mention one-off issues like a work-share agreement tussle and the like. I can assure you Boeing isn't obliged to plough back *50% * of the F-15SA deal into Indian industry so these DR-Indian talks have taken around 3 years (deal is now waiting for the next GoI to come in but is effectively closed) which is entirely understandable.
> 
> The 2-3 years before that were used for comparative trails and evaluations between the 6 entrants into the MMRCA competition. Again, the RSAF simply did NOT conduct as an exhaustive evaluative process as the IAF did- they may have conducted a somewhat thorough specifications review based on literature provided by the respective manufacturers but did they ever trail the respective bidding fighters in country or send their test pilots abroad to test the bidders in their home nations? Nope. The fact you can't even name the Russian a/c Robert Gates has speculated took part (btw highly predujiced source of information don't you think considering his nation's a/c won out) says a lot about the opaqueness of the SA election process. Again, I'll ask, did the RSAF have to compile 100s of page reports on each individual a/c judging 600+ parameters? The answer is a flat NO.
> 
> 
> On top of all this throw in the fact India is a parliamentary democracy which has thrown up its own issues from time to time (countless probes have been ordered into the MMRCA selection process because the opposition parties called it into question, getting of absolutely scot-free every time but slowing the process down no end) whilst SA is a monarchy and for the most part would be negotiating with the USG (whom it has VERY close ties to). It doesn't take a genius to see which nation might be more efficient in this regard.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again, I'm sorry but this is not comparable to the MMRCA competition at all. The MMRCA RFPs specifically outline that 50% of the contract will be plunged back into Indian industry over time, there is significant ToT and apart from an initial off the shelf delivery of a/c all fighters will be built in India by Indian industry with an increasing level of indigenous content.
> 
> Heck, Indian firms right now make components for Boeing (for F-18 and 787) without the MMRCA even going Boeing's way.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The F-15SA and MMRCA selection processes are chalk and cheese sir, there really is little to be gained in comparing them. If the media and certain people are unable to comprehend the sheer scale of the MMRCA's selection process then that is entirely their failing. Indians should be nothing but proud of the professional and thorough work that has gone into the MMRCA procurement and India, ultimately, will reap the benefits of this hard work....





sancho said:


> Now we getting to the real reasons! So there is no operational need, but just some beef between your forces. However, that doesn't mean a different type of fighter will be procured, when you already have the capability and the fighters for it. You simply add numbers and divert them to the navy, so either some of the F15s or order more EFs.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah sure, because nothing is politically motivated in the KSA. Dassault surely didn't forget how you rejected Rafale in favour for the EF and on what basis that selection was done at the end.



Is it similar to Russia's political reason to stop its arms sales to India?




I hope it won't!
Miffed Russia may stop arms sale to India - Hindustan Times
Political reasons happen in many case but not in everything, every time, and every single project.


----------



## he-man

Yzd Khalifa said:


> No deal is being sealed so far without ToTs
> 
> For Example:
> 
> BAE Systems Saudi Arabia in ToT contract with Al-Salam and AEC
> Saudi Arabia to Manufacture F-15SA Wings Locally
> Saudi's AEC to Develop F-15SA Sub-systems and AMRAAMs
> Alsalam builds F-15 parts | Arab News — Saudi Arabia News, Middle East News, Opinion, Economy and more.
> 
> 
> 
> It is up to you to decide which suits your country. To us, we would like to have a full-privatization of our industry. We do allow investments in certain sectors within, otherwise, we wouldn't have nationalized the Saudi Arabian BAE.
> 
> 
> 
> Why should we waste time when we already know what suits us the best?
> 
> Did it take from the UK 7 years of exhaustive evaluative examinations to procure the F-35? No, same goes with China whenever its mulls to buy a Russian-made warplane.
> 
> 
> 
> What makes you think the Saudi didn't? They did sign a MOU with France, the UK, and the US. If they didn't show a true level of seriousness or knowledge, they wouldn't have gone this far, which eventually makes your argument null and void. It is the duty of the MoD R&D's to decide which suits the RSAF and which does't, not the " based on literature provided by the respective manufacturers "
> 
> Our ETF will even become ahead of all Typhoon-program partners.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think the length of the report will determine the outcome of a competition. What you could have done to save time is to lay out your parameters, terms & conditions, and needs.
> 
> 
> 
> What the then-Secretary of Defense " Gates " was trying to say in a jest - of course - was on the fact that the US will lose the bid if their requirements isn't matched, and they might consider option B or even C. Rape, elections, terrorism, and poverty has nothing to do with it. It just is as simple as that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is it similar to Russia's political reason to stop its arms sales to India?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I hope it won't!
> Miffed Russia may stop arms sale to India - Hindustan Times
> Political reasons happen in many case but not in everything, every time, and every single project.



Then where else will they sell,lol

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## Yzd Khalifa

he-man said:


> Then where else will they sell,lol



Do you have any idea about how many F-35s are on order?  

Bah, the US military complex produces a tragic load of sh!t with KSA or without her.


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## he-man

Yzd Khalifa said:


> Do you have any idea about how many F-35s are on order?
> 
> Bah, the US military complex produces a tragic load of sh!t with KSA or without her.


Trust me I know that.
I was talking about russians


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## sancho

Yzd Khalifa said:


> Is it similar to Russia's political reason to stop its arms sales to India?
> Political reasons happen in many case but not in everything, every time, and every single project.



Russia is dependent on sales and funds from India or China, now more than ever before with the Ukraine crisis, so don't bet on bad media reports. We could discuss, that your country is highly dependent on the US and the UK, on what weapon systems they allow you, under what terms and so on, but that won't lead nowhere except of derailing the thread further.
The fact is, Rafale has next to no chance to be selected in your country, other than for political reasons, or as you pointed out, that your navy wants and own airwing and be independent from the air force and not for any operational needs. But when you take to account that your country is even trying to convince other Gulf countries (Kuwait, Bahrain, Qatar) to procure the EF and not the Rafale, it should be clear what the navy might get.

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## Yzd Khalifa

> Russia is dependent on sales and funds from India or China, now more than ever before with the Ukraine crisis



Point taken. The whole point which I was trying to make is that, Russia's too uses its political leverage to achieve some goals or another, like many country, but not always. I do appreciate your input though.



> We could discuss, that your country is highly dependent on the US and the UK, on what weapon systems they allow you, under what terms and so on



We are a self-defensive state, every rational-acting state knows that. Nothing of terms of conditions as long as we maintain our self-defensive mechanism, unlike many countries in the ME. We procure arms from France, Italy, Spain, and elsewhere. Our Saudi-Franco Naval projects are as heavy as our cooperation with the United Kingdom.



> or as you pointed out, that your navy wants and own airing and be independent from the air force and not for any operational needs



Hallelujah 

But actually, it is for both reasons. The Navy wants to be independent on one hand, and there are specific needs for the task they are going to carry on the other particular on the Gulf. 



> But when you take to account that your country is even trying to convince other Gulf countries (Kuwait, Bahrain, Qatar) to procure the EF and not the Rafale, it should be clear what the navy might get.



Would you mind providing us with a materialistic, solid evidence on the claim you made regarding KSA trying to _persuade_ the GCC to buy the EFT instead of the DR? 




sancho said:


> Russia is dependent on sales and funds from India or China, now more than ever before with the Ukraine crisis, so don't bet on bad media reports. We could discuss, that your country is highly dependent on the US and the UK, on what weapon systems they allow you, under what terms and so on, but that won't lead nowhere except of derailing the thread further.
> The fact is, Rafale has next to no chance to be selected in your country, other than for political reasons, or as you pointed out, that your navy wants and own airwing and be independent from the air force and not for any operational needs. But when you take to account that your country is even trying to convince other Gulf countries (Kuwait, Bahrain, Qatar) to procure the EF and not the Rafale, it should be clear what the navy might get.





he-man said:


> Trust me I know that.
> I was talking about russians



Point taken. 

Russia moves is cheap though ...

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## BATMAN

Yzd Khalifa said:


> I just want to see the DR in the hands of the IAF, then the UAE will fallow suit


UAE should buy Gripen-NG


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## Yzd Khalifa

BATMAN said:


> UAE should buy Gripen-NG



The UAE walked off the negotiation as the Dassault wanted them to finance the R&D. 

The Gripen is good, but I hardly think they would go for it.


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## BATMAN

Yzd Khalifa said:


> The Gripen is good, but I hardly think they would go for it.


Gripen is dam good, it has emerged as top of contender in Swiss evaluations.
French are anyway tricky people, it is much difficult to deal with them, after the purchase.

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## he-man

BATMAN said:


> Gripen is dam good, it has emerged as top of contender in Swiss evaluations.
> French are anyway tricky people, it is much difficult to deal with them, after the purchase.


Bhai tere bas ki nai hai technical discussion.

Tumse na hoga batman

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## BATMAN

he-man said:


> Bhai tere bas ki nai hai technical discussion.
> 
> Tumse na hoga batman



I'm not as bad as DRDO

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## he-man

BATMAN said:


> I'm not as bad as DRDO


Chal dil rakh lete hai tera


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## MilSpec

Yzd Khalifa said:


> Unprecedented in moder history? That's too big to take. We ordered 151 F-15SA after 2 consecutive years of negotiations.
> 
> The reason why India didn't sign till now is due to the fact that it wants a bigger discount, and more ToT.
> 
> By the time the first IAF DR arrival, China will be introducing two - three more aircrafts.


the reality is we don't dig money out of the ground, thus have to contemplate all options before closing the deal, KSA on the other hand has oil to fund all it's gizmos.

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## Yzd Khalifa

sandy_3126 said:


> the reality is we don't dig money out of the ground, thus have to contemplate all options before closing the deal, KSA on the other hand has oil to fund all it's gizmos.



Not really. This isn't what is going on. Having seen you military purchases over the years, I see no problem with money.


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## DacterSaab

Yzd Khalifa said:


> It is because the RSNF has an independent Air Arms on its own


Yes but is the air-arm large enough to support an entirely different kind of aircraft to do something that both F-15SA and EFT will be doing equally well? 
Hate to say doesn't make sense unless their going for a light CATOBAR carrier, or maybe they'll do it to increase Interoperatablity with UAE, Qatar and others.



Yzd Khalifa said:


> In the next few years, we will pull off the Tornados from the front lines. That's why the DR is being considered.


So you mean EFTs won't replace Tornados?



Yzd Khalifa said:


> Or maybe the Saudis will be waiting for a worth-procuring 5th Gen jet in the near future.


Now, that won't be a surprise at all most probably JSF will be procured.

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## DacterSaab

Yzd Khalifa said:


> Why should we waste time when we already know what suits us the best?
> Did it take from the UK 7 years of exhaustive evaluative examinations to procure the F-35? No, same goes with China whenever its mulls to buy a Russian-made warplane.


Exactly If you know what you want it's easier.
Look at Su-30 purchase although the MKIs needed modifications so they arrived later.

But with MMRCA India didn't know the exact aircraft they needed. 
Also it was an opportunity for the IAF to make a detailed evaluation (the competitors were tested in Banglore for performance in high humidity, in Jodhpur for performance in high temperatures and in Leh for performance in high altitude and sub-zero temperatures) of all western aircraft available in the market.

Since we were gonna order in high numbers we went for comprehensive TOT and offset requirement.

The first selection was made on technical evaluation of all fighters based on 600+ parameters.
The top 2 fighters were asked to submit bids including cost of fly-away fighters+cost of locally manufacturing fighters with incremental indigenisation+cost of training personal and equipment+cost of TOT+details of offset fullfillment.
Then the fighter that bid lower (L1) won the competition.



Yzd Khalifa said:


> Is it similar to Russia's political reason to stop its arms sales to India?
> I hope it won't!
> Miffed Russia may stop arms sale to India - Hindustan Times
> Political reasons happen in many case but not in everything, every time, and every single project.


Not happening for atleast half a century.



Yzd Khalifa said:


> and there are specific needs for the task they are going to carry on the other particular on the Gulf.


Could you please highlight?



BATMAN said:


> UAE should buy Gripen-NG


It depends on their requirements.




BATMAN said:


> Gripen is dam good, it has emerged as top of contender in Swiss evaluations.


Please take a look general Gripen is good low cost option.

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## sancho

BATMAN said:


> Gripen is dam good, it has emerged as top of contender in Swiss evaluations.



Not really, it actually came out last and below the operational requirements the Swiss air force had, but since the Swiss, just like Brazil neither can afford better fighters, nor have the threat perception that would require the best available fighters, they took the most cost-effective solution.

For most of the Gulf countries that can afford better fighters, the Gripen is not even worth evaluating, which is why neither KSA, UAE, Qatar, or even Oman thought about it. And for countries with credible threats like S. Korea, Japan, or India, it's simply not capable enough.




Yzd Khalifa said:


> But actually, it is for both reasons. The Navy wants to be independent on one hand, and there are specific needs for the task they are going to carry on the other particular on the Gulf.



Feel free to name a single specific need that the navy has and that couldn't be met by the F15s, Tornados or EF s, but only Rafales could meet.
You won't find any! The Maritime attack role is not that demanding and the mentioned fighters to already offers better (EF can be upgraded to that regard) capabilities. That's why the Rafale won't be selected by your navy on technical or operational means.



Yzd Khalifa said:


> Would you mind providing us with a materialistic, solid evidence on the claim you made regarding KSA trying to _persuade_ the GCC to buy the EFT instead of the DR?





> But in mid-2012, reports started to emerge that Bahrain was looking at acquiring a squadron of more advanced fighters.
> 
> Externally there were reports of three different views affecting the decisionwith one keen on Eurofighter Typhoons; another favouring widening the competition for a new fighter to include the Typhoon and the French Dassault Rafale...
> 
> ...
> Bahrain’s interest in the Eurofighter Typhoon is believed to have been encouraged by neighbouring Saudi Arabia, itself already a Typhoon operator, as well as being Bahrain’s largest and closest neighbour and the island Kingdom’s main source of military, political and financial support.
> 
> Bahrain and Saudi Arabia already co-operate in the provision of air defence alert duties for the GCC’s ‘Sector B’, which covers Bahrain, Qatar and parts of Saudi Arabia’s air space, responsibility for which is shared between the RBAF and RSAF F-15C squadrons based at Dhahran.
> 
> There have been some reports that Saudi Arabia could fund Bahraini Typhoons and that 12 or 14 (reports differ) be added to the next (as yet unannounced, but widely expected) Saudi order for 48 additional aircraft....


Arabian Aerospace - Bahrain Airshow: A look at the Royal Bahraini Air Force

Saudi Typhoon Deal Could Open Door To Further Sales | Aviation International News

Saudi Arabia to finance Jordan Eurofighter deal


UK/BAE is using their relations to your country, to sell more EFs in the region and that based on your influence and financial support. That might not work with the UAE and Qatar, since M2Ks might be bought back, but Bahrain and Kuwait are likely additions to the EF export family in the Gulf.


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## BATMAN

sancho said:


> Not really, it actually came out last and below the operational requirements the Swiss air force had, but since the Swiss, just like Brazil neither can afford better fighters, nor have the threat perception that would require the best available fighters, they took the most cost-effective solution.



^^non sense... 
Swiss evaluated F-18, Eurofighter, Rafale and Gripen, which appeared as top contender.
Now since India wish UAE to fund Rafale development, for its own sake, that's another discussion.


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## sancho

BATMAN said:


> Swiss evaluated F-18
> Now since India wish UAE to fund Rafale development, for its own sake, that's another discussion.



LOL, you don't even have a clue which fighters were evaluted, maybe this helps:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-UllaAXo7QnY/TtaTpBS5UWI/AAAAAAAACHs/rk5-LU3C3JA/s1600/armassuisse_eval.png

And why would India need the UAE? We are looking at completely different things than they do. We don't need the external hardpoint, nor 3 x Scalp missile configs. We are happy with the thrust of Rafale and don't want to integrate the Sniper pod...
In fact, the UAE might hope for India to fund and start the production of IRST and HMS for the Rafale.


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## Yzd Khalifa

> UK/BAE is using their relations to your country, to sell more EFs in the region and that based on your influence and financial support. That might not work with the UAE and Qatar, since M2Ks might be bought back, but Bahrain and Kuwait are likely additions to the EF export family in the Gulf.



Rubbish. None of these articles which said " unspecified " reports or numerous reports serve as materialistic, solid, and valid pieces of evidence. So unless you have something that is concrete where you can rely upon at hand, there is nothing where your argument could be based upon. Suffice to say that no country has threatened to cut its arms exports to us, let alone " using " our country.

Argumentatively defeated.



sancho said:


> Not really, it actually came out last and below the operational requirements the Swiss air force had, but since the Swiss, just like Brazil neither can afford better fighters, nor have the threat perception that would require the best available fighters, they took the most cost-effective solution.
> 
> For most of the Gulf countries that can afford better fighters, the Gripen is not even worth evaluating, which is why neither KSA, UAE, Qatar, or even Oman thought about it. And for countries with credible threats like S. Korea, Japan, or India, it's simply not capable enough.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Feel free to name a single specific need that the navy has and that couldn't be met by the F15s, Tornados or EF s, but only Rafales could meet.
> You won't find any! The Maritime attack role is not that demanding and the mentioned fighters to already offers better (EF can be upgraded to that regard) capabilities. That's why the Rafale won't be selected by your navy on technical or operational means.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Arabian Aerospace - Bahrain Airshow: A look at the Royal Bahraini Air Force
> 
> Saudi Typhoon Deal Could Open Door To Further Sales | Aviation International News
> 
> Saudi Arabia to finance Jordan Eurofighter deal
> 
> 
> UK/BAE is using their relations to your country, to sell more EFs in the region and that based on your influence and financial support. That might not work with the UAE and Qatar, since M2Ks might be bought back, but Bahrain and Kuwait are likely additions to the EF export family in the Gulf.





BATMAN said:


> ^^non sense...
> Swiss evaluated F-18, Eurofighter, Rafale and Gripen, which appeared as top contender.
> Now since India wish UAE to fund Rafale development, for its own sake, that's another discussion.



The UAE won't be buying the DR since they stated that they won't be funding any further R&D researches. 

UAE Says France's Rafale Deal 'Unworkable' | Defense News | defensenews.com


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## sancho

Yzd Khalifa said:


> Rubbish. None of these articles which said " unspecified " reports or numerous reports serve as materialistic, solid, and valid pieces of evidence.



Wait, there are several reputed aviation magazins reporting the same, but it's contrary to your "believe" it's wrong?
Yeah, that's very argumentative.



Yzd Khalifa said:


> The UAE won't be buying the DR since they stated that they won't be funding any further R&D researches.



Did you read the (old) article?



> "Regrettably Dassault seem unaware that all the diplomatic and political will in the world cannot overcome uncompetitive and unworkable commercial terms," he said...
> ..."The price is ridiculous," the source said



That means the cost Dassault is asking is too high for the UAE and not because any R&D funds. The technical details are already solved and the recent tests of weapons on the external hardpoint, the possible config with 3 x Scalp is all aimed on the UAE. The French politicians even agreed to all the side deals, the UAE wanted, the only point left is the price of the fighter, which is what the UAE is trying to bring down by faking interest in the EF, or F15s, while it is clear that they either simply keep the M2K-9 (which they at the same time keep upgrading for millions), or take Rafale at a certain point.


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## DacterSaab

Yzd Khalifa said:


> The UAE won't be buying the DR since they stated that they won't be funding any further R&D researches.
> UAE Says France's Rafale Deal 'Unworkable' | Defense News | defensenews.com


Old report there are newer reports of UAE's renewed interest for up-to 60 Rafale.



sancho said:


> while it is clear that they either simply keep the M2K-9 (which they at the same time keep upgrading for millions), or take Rafale at a certain point.


Egypt may buy their M2ks but they won't be able to buy enough arms to equip 'em.

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## sancho

DacterSaab said:


> Egypt may buy their M2ks but they won't be able to buy enough arms to equip 'em.



France is trying hard to convince Libya or Egypt to buy them, but they are not cheap, will be free only in a few years, when the Rafales would be ready and available for the UAE. At the same time Libya and Egypt has Mig 29s/35s, F16s, JF 17, J10 and partially even other fighters on offer, so why would they wait for M2K-9s?
The only Mirage 2000s, that can be procured in a shorter timeframe, are older French or the Qatari once, but the latter is available only in a very small number, which makes it only useful as an addition to a M2K fleet (like Indias for example), or countries that can't afford new fighters (Malaysia maybe).


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## Agent_47

The Rafale remains behind in 2 other areas.

Its new Damocles surveillance and targeting pod’s 320 x 240 infrared array is far behind other international offerings, even with an architecture that effectively gives 640 x 480 resolution. Current performance is adequate, but this gap will continue to widen until the improved PDL-NG surveillance and targeting pod’s debut in 2018 with an effective 1280 x 1040 array. That’s about the same as some current offerings, so by 2018, the Rafale is likely to modernize from a gross competitive disadvantage in a critical technology to a less egregious competitive disadvantage.

The 2nd gap is even more consequential. While the Rafale has a wide Head Up Display, a Helmet Mounted Display that would allow the Rafale to take full advantage of its wide-borseight MICA missiles remains the type’s most important missing piece




, even after F3R.


France’s Rafale Fighters: Looking for Love…


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## he-man

Agent_47 said:


> The Rafale remains behind in 2 other areas.
> 
> Its new Damocles surveillance and targeting pod’s 320 x 240 infrared array is far behind other international offerings, even with an architecture that effectively gives 640 x 480 resolution. Current performance is adequate, but this gap will continue to widen until the improved PDL-NG surveillance and targeting pod’s debut in 2018 with an effective 1280 x 1040 array. That’s about the same as some current offerings, so by 2018, the Rafale is likely to modernize from a gross competitive disadvantage in a critical technology to a less egregious competitive disadvantage.
> 
> The 2nd gap is even more consequential. While the Rafale has a wide Head Up Display, a Helmet Mounted Display that would allow the Rafale to take full advantage of its wide-borseight MICA missiles remains the type’s most important missing piece
> 
> 
> 
> , even after F3R.
> 
> 
> France’s Rafale Fighters: Looking for Love…



any idea if we are getting any new hmd with pakfa??
maybe we can use that here


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## Abingdonboy

Agent_47 said:


> The Rafale remains behind in 2 other areas.
> 
> Its new Damocles surveillance and targeting pod’s 320 x 240 infrared array is far behind other international offerings, even with an architecture that effectively gives 640 x 480 resolution. Current performance is adequate, but this gap will continue to widen until the improved PDL-NG surveillance and targeting pod’s debut in 2018 with an effective 1280 x 1040 array. That’s about the same as some current offerings, so by 2018, the Rafale is likely to modernize from a gross competitive disadvantage in a critical technology to a less egregious competitive disadvantage.
> 
> The 2nd gap is even more consequential. While the Rafale has a wide Head Up Display, a Helmet Mounted Display that would allow the Rafale to take full advantage of its wide-borseight MICA missiles remains the type’s most important missing piece
> 
> 
> 
> , even after F3R.
> 
> 
> France’s Rafale Fighters: Looking for Love…


Neither of these issues will be present on the IAF's Rafales, a HMDS will be present on their Rafales (TOPSIGHT-I like on IN's MIG-29Ks) and the IAF will more than likely opt for the LITENING G4 over the Damocles LDP.

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## sancho

Agent_47 said:


> The Rafale remains behind in 2 other areas.



Nobody is perfect and of course Rafale has it's issues, but some can be dealt by funding additional capabilities. HMS as @Abingdonboy said can be simply added, by integrating the same helmet that IAF and IN has chosen for M2Ks and Mig 29s. The litening is already in a competition with the Damocles to be added to several IAF fighters including M2K and Rafale, I'm pretty sure we will produce the IRST in India and add it to our fighters too. Hopefully SPICE PGMs will be added as well to increase Rafales strike capabilities and additional MAWS to counter some blind spots would be good as well.


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## halloweene

Agent_47 said:


> The Rafale remains behind in 2 other areas.
> 
> Its new Damocles surveillance and targeting pod’s 320 x 240 infrared array is far behind other international offerings, even with an architecture that effectively gives 640 x 480 resolution. Current performance is adequate, but this gap will continue to widen until the improved PDL-NG surveillance and targeting pod’s debut in 2018 with an effective 1280 x 1040 array. That’s about the same as some current offerings, so by 2018, the Rafale is likely to modernize from a gross competitive disadvantage in a critical technology to a less egregious competitive disadvantage.
> 
> The 2nd gap is even more consequential. While the Rafale has a wide Head Up Display, a Helmet Mounted Display that would allow the Rafale to take full advantage of its wide-borseight MICA missiles remains the type’s most important missing piece
> 
> 
> 
> , even after F3R.
> 
> 
> France’s Rafale Fighters: Looking for Love…


Talked to a DA vice president today, HMD IS integrated. About supplementary maws i'm doubtful as you would need to rewire the plane. Btw, mica IR sensors also act as maws...


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## kaykay

he-man said:


> any idea if we are getting any new hmd with pakfa??
> maybe we can use that here


By the time Rafale will come to India, HMD will be available.



halloweene said:


> Talked to a DA vice president today, HMD IS integrated. About supplementary maws i'm doubtful as you would need to rewire the plane. Btw, mica IR sensors also act as maws...


Thanks for the info.


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## DacterSaab

Agent_47 said:


> The Rafale remains behind in 2 other areas.
> Its new Damocles surveillance and targeting pod’s 320 x 240 infrared array is far behind other international offerings, even with an architecture that effectively gives 640 x 480 resolution. Current performance is adequate, but this gap will continue to widen until the improved PDL-NG surveillance and targeting pod’s debut in 2018 with an effective 1280 x 1040 array. That’s about the same as some current offerings, so by 2018, the Rafale is likely to modernize from a gross competitive disadvantage in a critical technology to a less egregious competitive disadvantage.
> The 2nd gap is even more consequential. While the Rafale has a wide Head Up Display, a Helmet Mounted Display that would allow the Rafale to take full advantage of its wide-borseight MICA missiles remains the type’s most important missing piece , even after F3R.
> France’s Rafale Fighters: Looking for Love…





he-man said:


> any idea if we are getting any new hmd with pakfa??
> maybe we can use that here


IAF uses Lightening LDP Standard on all current fighters (MKI, LCA, Jaguars, not sure about MiG-29smt/k, M2k5), also we have a competition for a NG LDP. The MiG-29smt/k will probably get lightening or NG pod, while M2k5s will probably get Damocles if Rafale brings it in, don't care about others.
As for HMS, The IAF has mandated it on every aircraft even MiG-21s and Sea-Harriers of IN have em. We are currently using DASH and Topsight-I which will probably be integrated into IAF Rafales and MKIs.
So I don't think those short comings will effect IAF Rafales. Cause even if only Damocles is integrated, during a war Lightening or NG pod can be easily integrated since we have source codes for both and it is not a lengthy/difficult process.

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## Abingdonboy

kaykay said:


> By the time Rafale will come to India, HMD will be available.





DacterSaab said:


> IAF uses Lightening LDP Standard on all current fighters (MKI, LCA, Jaguars, not sure about MiG-29smt/k, M2k5), also we have a competition for a NG LDP. The MiG-29smt/k will probably get lightening or NG pod, while M2k5s will probably get Damocles if Rafale brings it in, don't care about others.
> As for HMS, The IAF has mandated it on every aircraft even MiG-21s and Sea-Harriers of IN have em. We are currently using DASH and Topsight-I which will probably be integrated into IAF Rafales and MKIs.
> So I don't think those short comings will effect IAF Rafales. Cause even if only Damocles is integrated, during a war Lightening or NG pod can be easily integrated since we have source codes for both and it is not a lengthy/difficult process.


+ @sancho


The LITENING G4 has already won this competition for LDPs for the MKI, MIG-29UPG and Jags to join the existing stock of G2s and G3s that are said to be converted to G4 standard as part of a separate deal:

SP’s Exculsive - SP's Aviation


It would make little sense now for the IAF to choose the Damocles over the LITENING G4 for the M2K upgrades and Rafales the ONLY contributory factor could be integration costs that the IAF may have to pay for but I think whatever they may be the IAF wants the G4 on the Rafale and M2Ks. IIRC Dassualt said they had been in touch with Rafeal specifically on this matter of integrating the LITENING for the IAF's Rafales.

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## Nishan-101

Any possibility of Taiwan buying 100-200 Rafaels to replace its F-16s fleet or buying the 150 Mirage-2000s from France to replace its F-16s...


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## Abingdonboy

Nishan-101 said:


> Any possibility of Taiwan buying 100-200 Rafaels to replace its F-16s fleet or buying the 150 Mirage-2000s from France to replace its F-16s...


Welcome back @Nishan-101  I for one never had an issue with your, let's say, over exuberance. Anyway this isn't the place to discuss this bro, this thread is specifically for the Indian Air Force's Rafale/MMRCA procurement.

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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> + @sancho
> 
> 
> The LITENING G4 has already won this competition for LDPs for the MKI, MIG-29UPG and Jags to join the existing stock of G2s and G3s that are said to be converted to G4 standard as part of a separate deal:
> 
> SP’s Exculsive - SP's Aviation
> 
> 
> It would make little sense now for the IAF to choose the Damocles over the LITENING G4 for the M2K upgrades and Rafales the ONLY contributory factor could be integration costs that the IAF may have to pay for but I think whatever they may be the IAF wants the G4 on the Rafale and M2Ks. IIRC Dassualt said they had been in touch with Rafeal specifically on this matter of integrating the LITENING for the IAF's Rafales.



SP basically reported that there is interest of the Litening, but there is no official confirmation so far that the Israeli pod won and more over for what fighters, we have to wait a bit more I guess. Also don't underestimate integration costs of systems that are not originally developed for the fighter, since they can be very high as seen in the integration costs that MBDA UK asked for the integration of Brimstone to Rafale. IF Dassault would decide to ask simply too high costs, it wouldn't make any comercial sense anymore for IAF, but I guess Dassault is smart enough to not risk the fighter deal for some LDPs.



halloweene said:


> Talked to a DA vice president today, HMD IS integrated. About supplementary maws i'm doubtful as you would need to rewire the plane. Btw, mica IR sensors also act as maws...



Which HMS and funded by whom? Also who fundet the SATCOM integration? MICA IR seekers can't be Dassaults solution for every weak point (lack of IRST, lack of MAWS), it's basically a single additional DDM NG sensor needed, somewhere below the cockpit section, to provide real spherical coverage.



kaykay said:


> By the time Rafale will come to India, HMD will be available.



Only if somebody funds the final integration or even development and the French government doesn't do it as we know, so it needs to be seen if Qatar does it before India (the later would be more beneficiary for us of course, since we then would get the whole production line).


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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> SP basically reported that there is interest of the Litening,


To be fair sir, the SP report says a bit more than just that:



> after reportedly *bagging* a massive contract for over 150 LITENING targeting pods for the Indian Air Force's combat aircraft fleet. A spokesperson for Rafael wouldn't confirm details *but indicated* to *SP's*that the LITENING pod *had been *chosen by the Indian Air Force for its frontline fighter aircraft,






sancho said:


> Only if somebody funds the final integration or even development and the French government doesn't do it as we know,


One of the original requirements for the IAF for the MMRCA was to have a plane delivered with a HMDS, this was known to Dassualt from day 1. There simply is no question of IF the IAF will be electing to go for HMDS on their Rafales. If Dassualt hadn't already agreed to this they wouldn't have made it past the technical evaluation stages.

I think there is the possibility we are looking into this too much, the fact is a integrated HMDS was mandatory just to make it past the technical evaluations and non-compliance with this would have seen the fighter thrown out. The fact is no one has raised any issue with the HMDS and neither has anyone said Dassualt won't be delivering the Indian Rafales with a HMDS- not even the Rafale's competitiors that have a HMDS in service on their a/c (EFT) so really this is a storm in a tea cup that doesn't even exist. 



sancho said:


> it needs to be seen if Qatar does it before India


Latest news was that Qatar was waiting to see what India did on the Rafale front so it's unlikely we'll see Qatar place orders before India or any other nation for that matter especially considering the Indian Rafale deal is, what, a few months away from being signed? There is no other potential purchaser on the horizon for that time frame.


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## Sergi

Sergi said:


> @sancho @Abingdonboy @sandy_3126 @halloweene
> Ok. I got the news from long ears that everything in negotiations is done. And contract is awaiting new GOI. Volume of off-shelf purchase is 46 and 16 being dual seaters and 30 single seater to be delivered in 2 years.
> I am kinda skeptical on info anybody share the thought ??? Any thoughts on this news ???



The same guy claimed that production for IAF has already started in Jan,2014. Its just not possible to produce without confirmation from GOI. So its most probably a fake news too. Sorry guies


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## halloweene

> Which HMS and funded by whom? Also who fundet the SATCOM integration? MICA IR seekers can't be Dassaults solution for every weak point (lack of IRST, lack of MAWS), it's basically a single additional DDM NG sensor needed, somewhere below the cockpit section, to provide real spherical coverage.



self funded by DA. The type of HMD i couldn't know exactly, probably topsight new version.



> The same guy claimed that production for IAF has already started in Jan,2014. Its just not possible to produce without confirmation from GOI. So its most probably a fake news too. Sorry guies



Not exactly. French state guarantee 11/Rafale production rythm. So some could be for india... If signed otherwise they'll go to AdlA


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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> To be fair sir, the SP report says a bit more than just that



An "indication" that the Litening is selected, from the manufacturer, is not an official confirmation and doesn't tell us more about the aimed platforms either. It's a good sign of course and I expected that from the start as you know, but I leaned that we need a lot of patience and official confirmations in this competition. 



Abingdonboy said:


> One of the original requirements for the IAF for the MMRCA was to have a plane delivered with a HMDS, this was known to Dassualt from day 1. There simply is no question of IF the IAF will be electing to go for HMDS on their Rafales. If Dassualt hadn't already agreed to this they wouldn't have made it past the technical evaluation stages.



Of course and there is no doubt that Indian Rafales would have HMS if we select it, but we have to fund the final integration first, since neither French government, nor Dassault has done that so far. Just like we can have FSO - IRST, but that we have to pay for, or take over the production of it, since that part is not in production anymore. 
It's the same with EF's AESA, TVC, or the EPE engine, IRST and additional passive sensors of the F18SH. The manufacturer can "offer" featurers that could be added to the fighter, but aren't funded yet, they just have to do it from the start and that certain data of them will be diverted for at least theoretical evaluation.



Abingdonboy said:


> Latest news was that Qatar was waiting to see what India did on the Rafale front so it's unlikely we'll see Qatar place orders before India



Nope, they have no advantage from waiting on India, since they have their own requirements and needs. In fact that need to find a taker for the M2Ks, which will be a crucial point for their new procurement. The recent reports also suggest that they are up to more advantages, maybe even from different sides, by going not only for 36 x fighters, but possibly even 72, maybe in form of 2 different fighters (EU/US split like UAE and Saudi). Then you have the fast A330MRTT procurement of the last weeks, which clearly hints on a fast fighter selection too, since their M2Ks afaik doesn't have IFR capability. 
They might be more influenced by a possible decision of the UAE and the support of Saudi Arabia for the EF, than that we select a Rafale with Israeli features, that they can't get anyway.



halloweene said:


> self funded by DA. The type of HMD i couldn't know exactly, probably topsight new version.



Self funded SATCOM would make sense, since it's clear that the French forces will need this feature soon too, but self funded HMS would be more than surprising, since they offered that feature to UAE, in Brazil or Switzerland only as an option.


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## Abingdonboy

*India: the Rafale file follows its course despite electoral truce *

_Elections in India, whose final result will not be known before mid-May, should not slow down the completion of the Rafale deal , according to Eric Trappier, CEO of Dassault Aviation. "I rest on the belief that, given the willingness of Indians to go fast. Work continues on the field despite the election period. " Meetings with industry partners and government and military authorities are held at this time. The matter is in the hands of the present administration who will present it to the new government in June. The French manufacturer reasonably expects that the contract will be signed before the end of 2014.
From:
http://www.aerobuzz.fr/spip.php?brev...medium=twitter_


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## surya kiran

Not sure, if anybody posted this before
France to send four Rafales to India for quadrennial 'Garuda' exercises - IHS Jane's 360

France will send four Dassault Rafale fighters to India in June to take part in the fifth round of joint 'Garuda' air exercises, an Indian Air Force spokesman said in New Delhi on 22 April. 

He told _IHS Jane's_ that the Rafales, accompanied by a KC-135 Stratotanker tanker, will undertake combat drills with the IAF's Sukhoi Su-30MKI, upgraded Mikoyan MiG-27 and MiG-21 'bis' fighters at the Jodhpur air base, 600 km west of New Delhi, for 10 days until 13 June.

India's Ministry of Defence (MoD) has been in advanced negotiations with Dassault to acquire 126 Rafales for the IAF's Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) requirement since 2012 but these talks recently stalled due to a resource crunch and the ongoing general election in India


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## halloweene

In fact, most of the preliminary work was done as HMDs was scheduled for F3 standard... So i guess it wasn't so costly to finalize it. The source is top ranked, but i'll cross it with another source.

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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> _Eric Trappier, CEO of Dassault Aviation. "I rest on the belief that, given the willingness of Indians to go fast. _



Quiet telling that all he has left now is his belive, because he knows quiet well that all depends on UPA winning, otherwise things "can" change.



halloweene said:


> In fact, most of the preliminary work was done as HMDs was scheduled for F3 standard... So i guess it wasn't so costly to finalize it. The source is top ranked, but i'll cross it with another source.



That was done for the French forces, which selected the Gerfault HMS, but that was scrapped later, before a final integration was done, otherwise the helmet would already had been available for export customers.


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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> Quiet telling that all he has left now is his belive, because he knows quiet well that all depends on UPA winning, otherwise things "can" change.


Sir, I know there is the _possibility_ that the BJP/Modi will challenge the Rafale deal but I just don't see it happening. At most they will review it and delay singing a few weeks/months but the outcome will be the same. I've been doing more reading on Modi and defence modernisation is a major point for him and he is no idiot he is going to know to address the the declining SQD numbers and the obsolesce the Rafae deal that is literally only waiting for a signature is the way to go. The LCA is not going to be up to filling the numbers in the time and the FGFA is way way down the line. 

Added to that despite allegation after allegation probe after probe has given the Rafale/MMRCA the all-clear again and again. There is next to nothing to question about this deal that would merit in its cancellation. 


I'm actually quite confident that a lot of the deals the UPA/Antony has sat on- Arty, N-MRH, MMRCA etc for so long will now finally see some serious foreword momentum under a BJP/Modi govt. 


@arp2041 what say you?


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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> At most they will review it and delay singing a few weeks/months but the outcome will be the same.



That's more than enough to change the game, because reviewing things can be done with different priorities. We have seen that in the Brazilian competition, where the earlier government had the focus on political long term and industrial advantages, while the current government changed the priorities to an increased focus on costs too. That then naturally played against the Rafale, that was found to be the most capable / suitable fighter, based on technical standards, but had no chance to remain a viable choice, in a country with increasing economic and financial problems.

In India finiancial prioirities might not be the issue, but when the focus is changed on indigenous techs, based on blind patroism, the LCA will gain more importance than an MMRCA and that just like in Switzerland, even if it's below the required technical requirements of the MMRCA!
The other point is, that the EF consortium with it's powerful private industrial players and influencial European governments behind it, will have a complete new partner to push for. Antony was highly focused on a clean competion, without any political influence and he achived that. The MMRCA is maybe one of the very few competition, where even the vendors that lost out, had praised MoD and IAF for how the competition was done, even if they were unfortunate to be out.
IF BJP however review the competition and decides that more industrial and political points must have priorities, the EF will surely get a boost!
And as I said recently, even if you look at both fighters not only based on the competition results and offers, but include the delayed delivery, as well as the changes of both fighters with technical prospect in mind, things can change for the Rafale!

The original Rafale offer, of course included IRST (which than was still in production), HMS to fulfill the requirements, but also had the Damocles XF LDP on offer, which was meant to be available by 2016, not to mention that one of the crucial capabilities for the Rafale is the AASM.
When you look at the Rafale today and with a possible delivery by 2017/18, you will see that the IRST is not available anymore and fulfilling the requirements requires additional funds, funds that already are needed to integrate the HMS. The fact that the French went for a French specific F3R upgrade, rather than one that is orientend at increasing export customer demands, killed the Damocles XF and now give an alternative only by 2018. For India that means integrating the Litening is a must have, not only a would be nice to have, which again requires credible additional fundings. And to make it worse, they didn't tried to develop a more cost-effective AASM version, or focused on exports, but even allowed the UAE to integrate their own PGM, which basically kills AASM exports for Rafale as well. And when you see that even the French forces actually don't want additional AASMs (still didn't funded the AASM 1000, which might be one reason why it's lost in the Mirage upgrade against SPICE 2000), but also integrated the more cost-effective GBU 49 as the CAS weapon in mass, you have to see that the potential of the Rafale with AASM is clearly going down. If we don't order it now, we might not even get it at all anymore and we all know that IAF had issues with high costly, French bombs in limited numbers before, which doesn't play in favour for the AASM either. Here again, the Israelis might offer soon a far more capable and cost-effective alternative with the SPICE 250, but that obviously not only for the Rafale!

So a BJP that claims to aim on pushing indigenous developments (LCA), is pro foreign industry involvement on the Indian market (EF consortium + partnership in the consortium for India) and even a new technical review on the shortlisted fighters, would all work against the Rafale. Actually the real pro side currently seems to be the relations of BJP and Reliance, which might influcence the government for a higher workshare for them.


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## arp2041

Abingdonboy said:


> Sir, I know there is the _possibility_ that the BJP/Modi will challenge the Rafale deal but I just don't see it happening. At most they will review it and delay singing a few weeks/months but the outcome will be the same. I've been doing more reading on Modi and defence modernisation is a major point for him and he is no idiot he is going to know to address the the declining SQD numbers and the obsolesce the Rafae deal that is literally only waiting for a signature is the way to go. The LCA is not going to be up to filling the numbers in the time and the FGFA is way way down the line.
> 
> Added to that despite allegation after allegation probe after probe has given the Rafale/MMRCA the all-clear again and again. There is next to nothing to question about this deal that would merit in its cancellation.
> 
> 
> I'm actually quite confident that a lot of the deals the UPA/Antony has sat on- Arty, N-MRH, MMRCA etc for so long will now finally see some serious foreword momentum under a BJP/Modi govt.
> 
> 
> @arp2041 what say you?




BJP is not Congress, they had taken brave decisions in there last term in office (NDA) when they signed Viky, Chakra & EVEN 126 mirage-2000 deal with France. It was only UPA's idiocy that they scrapped the whole deal & changed it into a tender process & a never ending one. When it comes to defense, BJP esp. Modi will hear to what the Defense forces have to say, if it's Rafale so be it, They will NEVER cancel the process & jeopardize India's security.

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## Sergi

arp2041 said:


> BJP is not Congress, they had taken brave decisions in there last term in office (NDA) when they signed Viky, Chakra & EVEN 126 mirage-2000 deal with France. It was only UPA's idiocy that they scrapped the whole deal & changed it into a tender process & a never ending one. When it comes to defense, BJP esp. Modi will hear to what the Defense forces have to say, if it's Rafale so be it, They will NEVER cancel the process & jeopardize India's security.


Couldnt agree more. 
But fact remain if the benifts are not seen worth the money then there are other fast track options available.


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## sancho

arp2041 said:


> BJP is not Congress



You might want to check their manifesto once again, especially on what they want to do about indigenous manufacturing. 



arp2041 said:


> they had taken brave decisions in there last term in office (NDA) when they signed Viky, Chakra & EVEN 126 mirage-2000 deal with France.



Viki is a pure disaster in terms of costs and delays did you forget that? Also there was never a deal done for Mirage, they only wanted to buy more Mirage fighters, but without a tender, they wouldn't be able to reduce the costs, let alone gain more benefits in technical or indistrial fields. The fact that we do tenders today is the sole reason, why we have so many options now, apart from Russia and France, which clearly benefits Indian defence procurements, since even the Russians had understand now, that they have to increase reliabilty of techs and operational costs, since a low unit cost alone isn't enough anymore!



arp2041 said:


> They will NEVER cancel the process & jeopardize India's security.


Great, so we open up for more corruption in the defence procurements, since we give the forces (main cause of all the re-tenders) free hand to get even more bribes, if they know the BJP will not scrap anything.

Support for a party is one thing, blinding yourself from reality a different one and you should look at the things a bit more unbiased buddy!


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## sancho

Sergi said:


> But fact remain if the benifts are not seen worth the money then there are other fast track options available.



Fast tracking can be done by increase efficiency of the procurements! That starts with crating useful RFI's and RFP's that actually shows some differences, to shortlist certain products right before the trial. That is done by the forces and one of the main problems in Indian defence procurement!!!
Take the MMRCA as an example, we had light class single engine contender like the Gripen, against nearly heavy class twin engine contenders like the F18SH. We had paper planes like the Mig, the Gripen, or the EF T3B, against proven and available fighters. Vendors that offered high critical techs and customizations, against US fighters and the Mig with next to no advantage on technical terms...and to make it worse, they let all 6 went to the trials, although they knew that several of them wouldn't fit the requirements (G-Limit and TWR couldn't be met by the SH and the Gripen, the Mig and the Gripen were not available with credible prototypes for the trials, the timeframe of the AESA developments of the Mig, or EF didn't fit the RFP either. So why were they cleared for the trials at all, which only delayed things?
And we see the same problems in many competitions too, IN's MRMR aircraft, where light to heavy, or prop against jet engined aircraft could be offered, but where not even the vendors are clear about IN's intentions. IA's self propelled howitzer, where nobody really knows if wheeled and tracked vehicles are needed, or if it could be even heavy tracked vehicles based on the Arjun...
So when you want to make things more efficient, you have to start at the roots and that are the forces!


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## Sergi

sancho said:


> Fast tracking can be done by increase efficiency of the procurements! That starts with crating useful RFI's and RFP's that actually shows some differences, to shortlist certain products right before the trial. That is done by the forces and one of the main problems in Indian defence procurement!!!
> Take the MMMRCA as an example, we had light class single engine contender like the Gripen, against nearly heavy class twin engine contenders like the F18SH. We had paper planes like the Mig, the Gripen, or the EF T3B, against proven and available fighters. Vendors that offered high critical techs and customizations, against US fighters and the Mig with next to no advantage on technical terms...and to make it worse, they let all 6 went to the trials, although they knew that several of them wouldn't fit the requirements (G-Limit and TWR couldn't be met by the SH and the Gripen, the Mig and the Gripen were not available with credible prototypes for the trials, the timeframe of the AESA developments of the Mig, or EF didn't fit the RFP either. So why were they cleared for the trials at all, which only delayed things?
> And we see the same problems in many competitions too, IN's MRMR aircraft, where light to heavy, or prop against jet engined aircraft could be offered, but where not even the vendors are clear about IN's intentions. IA's self propelled howitzer, where nobody really knows if wheeled and tracked vehicles are needed, or if it could be even heavy tracked vehicles based on the Arjun...
> So when you want to make things more efficient, you have to start at the roots and that are the forces!


To avoid single vender situation !!!
You eliminated every other fighter keeping DR sole option. Thats no no in Indian tender process. Means cancelation 

And the talked reforms might be for situations like that


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## sancho

Sergi said:


> To avoid single vender situation !!!
> You eliminated every other fighter keeping DR sole option



I didn't, since I said they have to get a clear idea about their prioirites first. If the G-limit and TWR were clear requirements, only the F18SH and the Gripen would be out, leaving 4 different fighters for the trials and even if you take out the Mig as well, for not providing a real prototype to the trials, you still would have 3 fighters that meet the technical requirements for performance and can be tested in the trials. So only half of the time for evaluation and testing of the fighters, by a simple improvement of the procedure to more efficiency!
Same goes for the MRMR, if the requirement is prop engined, half of the currently estimated options would be out, making the evaluation easier and faster.
LDP competition, make clear if you want an helicopter landing deck, or just a helicopter landing spot and again, the options are far clear...

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## assassin123

amazing rafale cockpit videos

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## DacterSaab

Abingdonboy said:


> The LITENING G4 has already won this competition for LDPs for the MKI, MIG-29UPG and Jags to join the existing stock of G2s and G3s that are said to be converted to G4 standard as part of a separate deal:


Well I hoped G4 won so that's good news although I didn't believe US would share technology. But I don't understand what's the problem with 2052 for LCA? Why aren't they allowing us to get 'em?



sancho said:


> SP basically reported that there is interest of the Litening, but there is no official confirmation so far that the Israeli pod won and more over for what fighters, we have to wait a bit more I guess.


What's the problem the report clearly states that G4 is chosen?



sancho said:


> An "indication" that the Litening is selected, from the manufacturer, is not an official confirmation and doesn't tell us more about the aimed platforms either.


Boy I'm confused now, I think I need to lay of the weed a bit.



sancho said:


> they just have to *do it from the start* and that certain data of them will be diverted for at least theoretical evaluation.


A few pages back weren't you guys talking about French Air Force testing 2 different HMDS for Rafale one was Topsight and I'm not sure about the other one but they found the other one to be better than topsight.
So if they have already tested it on the platform why would they need to "do it from the start"?



sancho said:


> They might be more influenced by a possible decision of the UAE and the support of Saudi Arabia for the EF, than that we select a Rafale with Israeli features, that they can't get anyway.


I agree



sancho said:


> Self funded SATCOM would make sense, since it's clear that the French forces will need this feature soon too,


Will IAF Rafales get this feature if yes will they use French satellites or our own?



sancho said:


> Quiet telling that all he has left now is his belive, because he knows quiet well that all depends on UPA winning, otherwise things "can" change.


I doubt even NDA will have a problem with the deal especially since the French would still be willing to do business and IAF would specifically push for this aircraft only. Worst they'd do is delay it a couple of months by probing it.
Although I must say if the 'Third Front" leads we should all expect to see MMRCA cancelled and lots of LCA probably even an MCA (2 engine 4+gen fighter based on LCA).




sancho said:


> which selected the Gerfault HMS


Thank you thats what I was talking about a few lines up.



Abingdonboy said:


> Sir, I know there is the possibility that the BJP/Modi will challenge the Rafale deal but I just don't see it happening. At most they will review it and delay singing a few weeks/months but the outcome will be the same.


I agree




Abingdonboy said:


> I've been doing more reading on Modi and defence modernisation is a major point for him and he is no idiot he is going to know to address the the declining SQD numbers and the obsolesce the Rafae deal that is literally only waiting for a signature is the way to go


I haven't done any reading on but know him very well from back in my days in Ahmedabad/Gandhinagar.



Abingdonboy said:


> Added to that despite allegation after allegation probe after probe has given the Rafale/MMRCA the all-clear again and again. There is next to nothing to question about this deal that would merit in its cancellation.


Unless UPA leaders get a heavy bribe from Obama then some false evidence can be produced that gets detected during an innocent probe and no more MMRCA instead we're purchasing 10.5 squadrons of JSF




Abingdonboy said:


> I'm actually quite confident that a lot of the deals the UPA/Antony has sat on- Arty, N-MRH, MMRCA etc for so long will now finally see some serious foreword momentum under a BJP/Modi govt.


As they say 'umeed pe duniya tiki hai' = The world is standing on top of hope



sancho said:


> That's more than enough to change the game, because reviewing things can be done with different priorities. We have seen that in the Brazilian competition, where the earlier government had the focus on political long term and industrial advantages, while the current government changed the priorities to an increased focus on costs too. That then naturally played against the Rafale, that was found to be the most capable / suitable fighter, based on technical standards, but had no chance to remain a viable choice, in a country with increasing economic and financial problems.


Ya but does Brazil have heavily armed neighbors with credible international support that are ready to threaten it's territorial integrity at the first hint of weakness?
btw do you know the last time tensions with China heightened recently the no. of MKIs taking off at 1 time from Trishul AFB was straight away tripled?




sancho said:


> In India finiancial prioirities might not be the issue, but when the focus is changed on indigenous techs, based on blind patroism, the LCA will gain more importance than an MMRCA and that just like in Switzerland, even if it's below the required technical requirements of the MMRCA!


NDA won't do that but Third-front surely will.



sancho said:


> In India finiancial prioirities might not be the issue, but when the focus is changed on indigenous techs, based on blind patroism, the LCA will gain more importance than an MMRCA and that just like in Switzerland, even if it's below the required technical requirements of the MMRCA!
> The other point is, that the EF consortium with it's powerful private industrial players and influencial European governments behind it, will have a complete new partner to push for. Antony was highly focused on a clean competion, without any political influence and he achived that. The MMRCA is maybe one of the very few competition, where even the vendors that lost out, had praised MoD and IAF for how the competition was done, even if they were unfortunate to be out.
> IF BJP however review the competition and decides that more industrial and political points must have priorities, the EF will surely get a boost!
> And as I said recently, even if you look at both fighters not only based on the competition results and offers, but include the delayed delivery, as well as the changes of both fighters with technical prospect in mind, things can change for the Rafale!


If that scenario does arise then MMRCA will be scrapped and we're gonna end up with JSF cause NDA will surely prefer US over EU.



sancho said:


> When you look at the Rafale today and with a possible delivery by 2017/18,


You do know that all 18 aircraft are stipulated to be delivered within 36 months of signing the deal? I mean your right about us having to pay more due to integrate capabilities we want but I doubt there's hardly any other aircraft out-there that can give us our required capabilities capabilities without need for customization.
And while we're on the subject could some confirm if US gave all clear to the ARMs that needed to come for there or have French found an alternative?




arp2041 said:


> BJP is not Congress, they had taken brave decisions in there last term in office (NDA) when they signed Viky, Chakra & EVEN 126 mirage-2000 deal with France.


They also did a few stupidities like making the Pokhran-test, public knowledge (I mean u don't just shout 'hey I've got a couple of Aces in my hand' at a card-game, instead u just silently keep them and use them when you need em). The embargoes that followed almost jeopardized the LCA among other things.



sancho said:


> (G-Limit and TWR couldn't be met by the SH and the Gripen, the Mig and the Gripen were not available with credible prototypes for the trials, the timeframe of the AESA developments of the Mig, or EF didn't fit the RFP either. So why were they cleared for the trials at all, which only delayed things?


No Competitor in MMRCA met all the requirements only US-aircraft had AESA available and we were interested in neither of the 2. 



sancho said:


> LDP competition, make clear if you want an helicopter landing deck, or just a helicopter landing spot and again, the options are far clear...


U mean LDP or LPD?


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## sancho

DacterSaab said:


> Well I hoped G4 won so that's good news although I didn't believe US would share technology. But I don't understand what's the problem with 2052 for LCA? Why aren't they allowing us to get 'em?



Because they don't share their high techs and AESA radar techs are the highest techs besides engine techs today.



DacterSaab said:


> What's the problem the report clearly states that G4 is chosen?



Nope, it says that the manufacturer is indicating a win, but neither is there an official statement from the Indian government / IAF, nor is it clear for which fighters these LDPs were procured. Without these confirmations, Rafale can still come with PDL NG at the end, although I pridicted the Litening from the start.



DacterSaab said:


> I doubt even NDA will have a problem with the deal



It was them that started several investigations based on baseless allegations against the Rafale / Dassault, so there is an issue, but that might had been based on political reasons during election time, we will have to wait and see.



DacterSaab said:


> If that scenario does arise then MMRCA will be scrapped and we're gonna end up with JSF cause NDA will surely prefer US over EU.



And you think the US will allow a license production of their latest fighter that they didn't even allowed to their closest allies and that to a BJP government, although they had closer relations to the UPA government?

NOT GOING TO HAPPEN!



DacterSaab said:


> And while we're on the subject could some confirm if US gave all clear to the ARMs that needed to come for there or have French found an alternative?



There were only media reports from the US and Russia that India wanted to add a ARM, but nothing official nor was that part of the RFP as far as we know. Rafale (and most air forces in future) does SEAD with PGMs from stand off ranges, by attacking not only the radar like it was done in the past with ARMs but attacking the whole system including the SAMs itself. Here again, the addition of a more capable PGM like SPICE 250 / 1000 would be more beneficiary for SEAD than a ARM.



DacterSaab said:


> No Competitor in MMRCA met all the requirements only US-aircraft had AESA available and we were interested in neither of the 2.



That's not correct, only the US had AESA in operational service, but Rafale had a ready developed AESA available, while the others had tech demo AESA's more or less too. The requirement however was that you have to be able tp provide an operational AESA by 2015/16, which Rafale already fulfills.



DacterSaab said:


> U mean LDP or LPD?


No the amphibious vessel, because they have made the RFP so open that anything could fit and that delays decisions too.

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## sancho

Crossposting from IDF, to remaind what support the BJP gave Rafale and Dassault through the years:



> *May 11, 2011*
> *...Subramanian Swamy* has now apparently trained his ire at the IAF's $12-billion M-MRCA fighter deal.
> 
> *Swamy, officially leader of the **Janata Party*, but best known for years as a voluble and dogged government baiter on all matters graft, says he has written to Indian Prime Minister Dr Manmohan Singh making some very dramatic allegations. The letter (full text in image above) was written on April 29, two days after the dramatic M-MRCA elimination*.* Like all his letters, this one says that it draws on "inside information" from within the government. Let's get to the contents:
> 
> *Swamy writes: "*_*My sources indicate that the pre-determined decision to favour the French aircraft *_*[Dassault's Rafale]*_* was the outcome of several conversations between the wife of French President Ms. Carla Bruni and the Chairperson of the National Advisory Council Ms. Sonia Gandhi, and surprisingly also with two foreign nationals who are the sisters of Ms. Sonia Gandhi*_*."*



Livefist: Indian Politician Says Sonia Gandhi Has Rigged M-MRCA Deal for Rafale




> Dec, 2013
> 
> ...*Senior leader **Yashwant Sinha** had questioned the Defence Ministry's move to have "life cycle cost" clause in tenders for military hardware. *
> 
> The Defence Ministry is expected to review the process of determining the lowest bidder in the multi-billion dollar deal after the conclusion of commercial negotiations, sources said here.



Combat aircraft deal: Defence Ministry likely to review tender process - The Economic Times




> 27 February 2014
> 
> ...
> *BJP leader Subramanian Swamy on Wednesday urged Defence Minister AK Antony to put the purchase proceedings of Dassault Rafale fighter jets on hold, in the wake of arrest of the company chief in France for bribery charges.*
> 
> In his letter to Antony, Swamy said the Ministry should seek the full details from France on the arrest of Serge Dassault, the head of the company which was selected to deliver 126 fighter jets to Indian Air Force.



Halt purchase of Dassault jets, Swamy urges Antony


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## DacterSaab

sancho said:


> Nope, it says that the manufacturer is indicating a win, but neither is there an official statement from the Indian government / IAF, nor is it clear for which fighters these LDPs were procured. Without these confirmations, Rafale can still come with PDL NG at the end, although I pridicted the Litening from the start.


Brother, don't you think 150 LDPs is not a large enough order that all details come in media circles. I mean do we really know every LDP, other targeting/reconnaissance pod, AAM, ASM, AShM, PGM and LGB currently in service with IAF and on which fighters it's compatible or how many we possess?



sancho said:


> And you think the US will allow a license production of their latest fighter that they didn't even allowed to their closest allies and that to a BJP government, although they had closer relations to the UPA government?


And you think BJP government would give a damn about license producing? especially when they have a very good explanation for forgoing license production (It is USAF's latest fighter), also it's easily justifiable they can call it a better fighter, say it gives AF more capabilities, at the same time it provides country with special favors from the USA in case of conflict against PRC etc,etc. And I'd chop of my right hand if a Modi led administration goes for EADS nations over USA (lifelong dream of 8 out of 10 Gujaratis is to somehow go to US and spend their life there either legally or illegally).
And you said it yourself different govt. may have different priorities. They might not think License production is important at all instead wanting to go for stealth and I'm sure US will allow some minor components to be produced here if we order potentially ~200 jets. Also Washington has made it very clear that they are willing to do business with BJP govt and that they are willing to provide us with JSF.



sancho said:


> That's not correct, only the US had AESA in operational service, but Rafale had a ready developed AESA available, while the others had tech demo AESA's more or less too. *The requirement however was that you have to be able tp provide an operational AESA by 2015/16,* which Rafale already fulfills.


If that was the requirement why was EFT shortlisted cause at the time of shortlisting it was pretty clear that CAPTOR-E would not be operational anywhere near 2015/16?
Yes in the beginning only US fighters had operational AESAs. French had probably started developing but RBE2AA wasn't operational until somewhere around the time when Rafale was shortlisted for MMRCA. Both Zhuk AE for Fulcrum and CAPTOR-E for EFT would not be operational by the time you suggest was in requirement.
According to what I've read the requirement was to demonstrate in a Lab that they were capable of developing AESA and you might remember that this was the ground on which Gripen NG was dismissed.



sancho said:


> No the amphibious vessel, because they have made the RFP so open that anything could fit and that delays decisions too.


yeah thats true.




sancho said:


> Crossposting from IDF, to remaind what support the BJP gave Rafale and Dassault through the years:


yeah but that's strictly business nothing personnel.


----------



## sancho

DacterSaab said:


> Brother, don't you think 150 LDPs is not a large enough order that all details come in media circles.



Procurements has to be announced by the MoD to a certain extend too, the recent procurement of SPICE bomb kits were too, so I don't think that is an issue. Besides, that if there would be something official, we would have seen far more reports about it, not only the inteviews with the manufacturer at AI.



DacterSaab said:


> They might not think License production is important at all


Which would be completely stupid! Our industry is so far behind everybody, we need licence productions, ToT and offsets in every possible way to improve them and that of critical techs, not minor airframe parts. So no, any US fighter without licence production of critical parts is a no go.



DacterSaab said:


> If that was the requirement why was EFT shortlisted cause at the time of shortlisting it was pretty clear that CAPTOR-E would not be operational anywhere near 2015/16?


Actually it wasn't clear, but predictable. IF we had chosen EF, they would have funded and started the final development earlier and therefor the AESA "could" be ready in time, but I also had criticized that before.
On the other side, you have to look at the whole picture and that includes industrial benefits, flight performance or possible weapon packages too and the EF was possibly first in indistrial and flight performance terms, while also offering the best cruise missiles next to Rafale. And at the end exactly these points might had been cruicial for the shortlisting.



DacterSaab said:


> Yes in the beginning only US fighters had operational AESAs. French had probably started developing but RBE2AA wasn't operational until somewhere around the time when Rafale was shortlisted for MMRCA. Both Zhuk AE for Fulcrum and CAPTOR-E for EFT would not be operation by the time you suggest was in requirement.
> According to what I've read the requirement was to demonstrate in a Lab that they were capable of developing AESA and you might remember that this was the ground on which Gripen NG was dismissed.



They don't had to have an operational AESA, only one to test "on a fighter" and all vendors provided that. Rafales AESA was not operation, but except of the US once, the only one that was fully developed. The others were hardly in tech demonstrator stage and could be evaluated, but with the risk of changes till the serial production. The Gripen NG came to India with AESA as well, but 1 month too late and with older Gripens making the bulk of the trials, which alone would had been a reason for me, to not approve them to the trials at all. We wasted a lot of time there!



DacterSaab said:


> yeah but that's strictly business nothing personnel.



Lets see how that plays out now when they are in power and when the EF consortium, German and British government will try to re-convince them.


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## atlssa

sancho said:


> Lets see how that plays out now when they are in power and when the EF consortium, German and British government will try to re-convince them.



Hi sancho! Whats up?!
I've been following your comments for such long time and I agree with your point of view. What do you think will be the government decision?


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## sancho

atlssa said:


> Hi sancho! Whats up?!
> I've been following your comments for such long time and I agree with your point of view. What do you think will be the government decision?



Hi, I think it's pretty open at the moment and can even result in a re-evaluation like it was the case in your country after the government change. For India it can look like this:

1) BJP (and some push from Reliance) want to fix Rafale deal and focus on that
2) BJP want to re-evaluate the shortlisting (pushed by the EF consortium and partner countries, possibly even by the US and Israel in support of the UK/GER) and want to take an own decision, based on own priorities => MMRCA decision gets delayed with all chances for the EF again
3) BJP things Rafale is too costly and there should be a higher focus on indigenous developments => MMRCA will be cancelled for LCA / AMCA


With BJP's obvious negative approach towards the Rafale and promising indigenous developments on the other side, imo it will be difficult now for Dassault, but lets hope for the best!

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## atlssa

sancho said:


> With BJP's obvious negative approach towards the Rafale and promising indigenous developments on the other side, imo it will be difficult now for Dassault, but lets hope for the best!



I see!
Thank you very much for answering. Let's wait and see what comes up!


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## halloweene

TBH, don't you think Dassault was already in talks with BJP for months?

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## Abingdonboy

halloweene said:


> TBH, don't you think Dassault was already in talks with BJP for months?


This is what I've heard.....


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## sancho

halloweene said:


> TBH, don't you think Dassault was already in talks with BJP for months?



So? They were in talks with the new Brazilian government too and did that change anything? 
What counts is, what the BJP will decide when they are in power, which policies they will follow, which budgets they have in mind and where they will put their priorities. All that can turn their decisions to one of the sides that I mentioned in the earlier posts.

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## atlssa

sancho said:


> So? They were in talks with the new Brazilian government too and did that change anything?
> What counts is, what the BJP will decide when they are in power, which policies they will follow, which budgets they have in mind and where they will put their priorities. All that can turn their decisions to one of the sides that I mentioned in the earlier posts.



In our case, we gave up on Rafale. Very good plane, but too expensive to buy, even more expensive to maintain.
For us, It didn't make any sense since other fighters are able to do almost the same job, costing a fraction of what Rafale does.


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## rockstarIN

sancho said:


> Hi, I think it's pretty open at the moment and can even result in a re-evaluation like it was the case in your country after the government change. For India it can look like this:
> 
> 
> *3) BJP things Rafale is too costly and there should be a higher focus on indigenous developments => MMRCA will be cancelled for LCA / AMCA*
> 
> 
> With BJP's obvious negative approach towards the Rafale and promising indigenous developments on the other side, imo it will be difficult now for Dassault, but lets hope for the best!



+ leasing out few Gripen squadrons like some European countries do.


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## DacterSaab

sancho said:


> Because they don't share their high techs and AESA radar techs are the highest techs besides engine techs today.


Well they are going to transfer F414 techs and had Viper or Hornet won MMRCA they would have transferred APG-79 or 80 techs to us. So why not 2052?



sancho said:


> Which would be completely stupid! Our industry is so far behind everybody, we need licence productions, ToT and offsets in every possible way to improve them and that of critical techs, not minor airframe parts. So no, any US fighter without licence production of critical parts is a no go.


Hey Obama puts a few hundred million $ in Banks of Modi and lot and they'll just say that they are purchasing because rapidly increasing squadron strength of IAF is more important today than tech transfer. Also it will make us the first AF in region to deploy 5th-gen jets. And I never said it would be a smart move but you were the one who said that deals can be re-evaluated with different priorities. So that means the priority may be to re-establish with Russia the Alliance we once had with USSR cause we'll need help if there is an open-conflict with PRC in which MiGs will be Inducted and again I'm not saying it'll be wise but what I'm saying is true. As for EFT the MMRCA contact has a clause where L2 bidder might be chosen but I don't remember the conditions required, yet what Industrial benefits will come from EFT that won't come with Rafale especially since they are not providing as much TOT as Dassault and don't have a Naval version that could be operated from IAC-2?



sancho said:


> Actually it wasn't clear, but predictable. IF we had chosen EF, they would have funded and started the final development earlier and therefor the AESA "could" be ready in time, but I also had criticized that before.
> On the other side, you have to look at the whole picture and that includes industrial benefits, flight performance or possible weapon packages too and the EF was possibly first in indistrial and flight performance terms, while also offering the best cruise missiles next to Rafale. And at the end exactly these points might had been cruicial for the shortlisting.


The MMRCA required the first squadron to be delivered within 36 months of signing the contract. Let's say it took 2 years from finalization to signing of contact. So could they have developed the radar within 2-3 years? I'm not sure about what Industrial benefits you speak of? And in terms of flight performance I'd say the difference b/w the finalists was negligible and more weapons are integrated into the DR as compared to EFT. Also if I'm correct your probably referring to TAURUS since SCALP is integrated on Rafale. The Shortlisting was done purely on basis of evaluation trial and technologies offered.



sancho said:


> The Gripen NG came to India with AESA as well, but 1 month too late and with older Gripens making the bulk of the trials, which alone would had been a reason for me, to not approve them to the trials at all. We wasted a lot of time there!


Yes that was an utter wastage of time especially since we were developing LCA for low-cost option. btw did it come with Raven at that time? cause unless I'm mistaken they were going for some other radar earlier.
Also the Falcon which was never really in the race and Fulcrum was just Hype at Aero India they were never gonna win either, And when F/A-18 entered MMRCA, Washington had made it very clear that there would be restrictions which IAF cannot afford to accept on ~200 fighters. So it was pretty clear it will not be selected.
And lastly When you are going to purchase potentially ~200 jets for billions of $s would you not look back at recent history on which country has been a better arms supplier. One who allowed you to quickly integrate LGB on jets at time of conflict and did not impose any embargoes even when the whole of West did so or the other who took your money then did not provide with trainers for decades and only restarted delivery so it might help their chances of securing MMRCA.
Thus if you skip back to around the time when I joined PDF you will find me stating clearly that Rafale was gonna win.



sancho said:


> Lets see how that plays out now when they are in power and when the EF consortium, German and British government will try to re-convince them.


As will the US.



sancho said:


> 3) BJP things Rafale is too costly and there should be a higher focus on indigenous developments => MMRCA will be cancelled for LCA / AMCA


Again they would never do that as surely as the Sun is not gonna rise from the west.



sancho said:


> With BJP's obvious negative approach towards the Rafale and promising indigenous developments on the other side, imo it will be difficult now for Dassault, but lets hope for the best!


This is politics when in opposition you are supposed to oppose everything that ruling party does and for the love of God how many promises have you seen these politicians keep in your life? And if they do decide against Rafale it's gonna be possibly the most dumbest thing they can do.



sancho said:


> So? They were in talks with the new Brazilian government too and did that change anything?


You do realize that comparing Brazil and India is like comparing apples and oranges.



atlssa said:


> In our case, we gave up on Rafale. Very good plane, but too expensive to buy, even more expensive to maintain.
> For us, It didn't make any sense since other fighters are able to do almost the same job, costing a fraction of what Rafale does.


For you, it doesn't make sense cause you don't have immediate neighbors threatening your borders and outnumbering you 1:4 times. And yes any fighter can do almost any job, costing a fraction of some or the other fighter. You can use MiG-27s or Jaguars for A2A missions but then why are nations using MiG-21/29, MKI or Raptors for A2A beats me?



rockstarIN said:


> + leasing out few Gripen squadrons like some European countries do


That's not even funny anymore. IAF will have no Gripen unless govt decides to shutdown LCA stating that it's no longer competitive in today threat environments.


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## atlssa

DacterSaab said:


> For you, it doesn't make sense cause you don't have immediate neighbors threatening your borders and outnumbering you 1:4 times.



Of course... Our situation is way too different. Your decision shall be be done accordingly.


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## sancho

atlssa said:


> In our case, we gave up on Rafale. Very good plane, but too expensive to buy, even more expensive to maintain.
> For us, It didn't make any sense since other fighters are able to do almost the same job, costing a fraction of what Rafale does.



Money won't be the issue for us, especially since our aims are on operational capability too, since our threat perception is very different to Brazils and there the Gripen for us obviously falls short, while it's enough for Brazil.
But we also have other fighters coming in, like LCA MK1, FGFA and in the long term possibly AMCA. So if the package of benefits that Rafale offers is not good enough for BJP anymore, they might turn to other available options that India have, eventhough the MMRCA is the only option that helps us industrially.



rockstarIN said:


> + leasing out few Gripen squadrons like some European countries do.



That's not an option at all! Only the Gripen C would be available now, which doesn't fit to the IAF requirements, is in the same class of LCA MK1 and it would add another type of fighter, which nobody wants. Only countries with low threat perceptions and even lower defence budgets leased Gripens, because that's what it is, a low cost, reasonably capable fighter for air policing or CAS rols and nothing that makes a difference for us.

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## sancho

DacterSaab said:


> Well they are going to transfer F414 techs and had Viper or Hornet won MMRCA they would have transferred APG-79 or 80 techs to us. So why not 2052?



But not critical techs, especially not AESA or EW techs, which was one of the reasons their fighter were rejected ourright. The whole negotiations in the ATGM competition is also based on the fact, that the US don't want to provide us with reasonable techs for the licence production, while the Israelis are, just like in MMRCA they weren't while Russian (theoretically) and Europeans are as well. The EL 2052 is not an option as well because the US, which blocked it for India several times now. They denied Saab to use it in their MMRCA offer, they denied to use it in LCA and even deny co-developments with the Israelis based on that techs. So as long as that doesn't change, only less important stuff in smaller numbers will be procured from the US, while the big ticket procurements will remain with Russia, Israel and Europe. 




DacterSaab said:


> Also it will make us the first AF in region to deploy 5th-gen jets.



No it doesn't, if that would be the aim we would go for early Pak Fa around 2016 and not F35s around 2018 and beyond.



DacterSaab said:


> yet what Industrial benefits will come from EFT that won't come with Rafale especially since they are not providing as much TOT as Dassault



They offered a full partnership, with access to all techs, production of parts for all EFs and export fighters..., not to mention that they can provide it through Airbus and BAE, 2 of the biggest defence companies in the world, which alone makes it industrially far different, than what Dassault could offer.
Also they offered us to take the lead in design and development of the naval typhoon as part of the consortium partnership, which also is an offer Dassault couldn't give, but since that version is not really capable and has zero export changes, that offer wasn't useful for India anyway. The Rafale M is in theory an option for IAC2, realistiacally however it isn't, since it lacks the twin seater that IN might require, has no folding wings which requires more space at the carrier and reduces the number of fighters that could be used and with the late induction of IAC2, anything else than a stealth fighter doesn't make sense anyway. So if we want to get something from Dassault for the navy, than it should be assistiance on developing a naval AMCA, rather than Rafale M.



DacterSaab said:


> The MMRCA required the first squadron to be delivered within 36 months of signing the contract. Let's say it took 2 years from finalization to signing of contact. So could they have developed the radar within 2-3 years?



As I said, with the required fundings it might have been possible, since they had developments going on based on AESA tech demonstrators, but it wouldn't had been as mature as the RBE 2 is now and might had been limited to A2A modes only at the begining.



DacterSaab said:


> And in terms of flight performance I'd say the difference b/w the finalists was negligible and more weapons are integrated into the DR as compared to EFT. Also if I'm correct your probably referring to TAURUS since SCALP is integrated on Rafale. The Shortlisting was done purely on basis of evaluation trial and technologies offered



Not really, performance whise the EF is clearly better. Be it speed in general, Supercruise capability, ceilling..., up to the fact that it can carry more METEOR in every role compared to the Rafale and that in a low drag & RCS config, and as I recently explained, the advantage of Rafales weapon pack is reducing currently, with AASMs future in doubt on the one side, Storm Shadow, Paveway IV and possibly Brimstone beeing added on the other side. 
Rafale has only Scalp, EF will now get Storm Shadow (the sister of Scalp if you want) and later also Taurus, which were part of the EFs offer in MMRCA:











DacterSaab said:


> btw did it come with Raven at that time? cause unless I'm mistaken they were going for some other radar earlier.



With a tech demo varient of it, but the main AESA tests were done in Sweden anyway and the NG made only a few trials in India anyway, which makes the rejection actually pretty logical.



DacterSaab said:


> This is politics when in opposition you are supposed to oppose everything that ruling party does



Nope! First of all, there is no opposition when it comes to the defence of India, since the ruling government and the oppositions must have the same aim here.
What the opposition has to do is, to check the government decisions for irregularities and if found make them visible. But what the BJP did wrt Rafale and even before the shortlisting or selection of Rafale, was complete baseless ranting, only aimed at the fighter and Dassault actually. They didn't even really attacked the MoD, which shows that they do have some issues with the selection of Rafale, for whatever reasons.



DacterSaab said:


> You do realize that comparing Brazil and India is like comparing apples and oranges.



Not at all! It's even exactly the same game! The same fighters in the competition, initially even with the same priorities (capability of the fighter and strategic / industrial advantages), which resulted into clear preferences , but then were delayed to the elections, whith the government providing the decision to the next one. That then re-evaluated the decision once more with different prioities (which BJP is free to do now as well) and the final selection of a totally different fighter.
Not what I want, but what realistically can happen!

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## sancho

Not that related anymore, but still interesting:



> *Saab Loses $3.5 Billion Jet Order as Swiss Reject Gripen *
> 
> ...The 22-plane contract, which Switzerland awarded 2 1/2 years ago, was opposed by 53.4 percent of voters, the Swiss government in Bern said yesterday. The latest survey ahead of the vote had showed some 51 percent of people opposing the transaction while 44 percent were in favor...



Saab Loses $3.5 Billion Jet Order as Swiss Reject Gripen - Bloomberg


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## sancho

Crossposting from the MP forum (credits to Olybrius):



> *Maintenance/MRO cost of the Rafale:*
> 
> For the record , in December 2004, the french Court of Auditors (Cour des Comptes) assessed the MRO cost of the Rafale to € 35,000 per flight hour . According to the Ministry of Defence, this cost should decrease to €10,000 per flight hour for Rafale B/C and € 7,000 for Rafale M in 2012. What are the actual numbers ?
> 
> _*Rafale B/C in 2012: *_
> 
> _Total MRO cost: € 182,60 millions_
> _Aircraft : 77 (1)_
> _Annual cost per aircraft : € 2,371 millions_
> _Cost per flight hour (250 hours): *€ 9484*_
> 
> http://questions.assemblee-nationale...14-22636QE.htm
> 
> _*Rafale M in 2013: *_
> 
> _Total MRO cost : € 100,7 millions _
> _Aircraft : 35 (1) _
> _Annual cost per aircraft : € 2,877 millions_
> _Cost per flight hour (250 hours): *€ 11508*_
> 
> http://questions.assemblee-nationale...14-47343QE.htm
> 
> _*Mirage 2000 in 2012:*_
> 
> _Total cost : 294,90 millions_
> _Aircraft : 136 (1)(2)_
> _Annual cost per aircraft: € 2,168 millions_
> _Cost per flight hour (250 hours) : *€ 8672* _




_Mirage 2000_ - _€ 8672 ($11896)
Rafale B/C_ - _€ 9484 ($13010)
_
Should be very interesting for IAF to compare these figures.

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## Agent_47

sancho said:


> Also they offered us to take the lead in design and development of the naval typhoon as part of the consortium partnership, which also is an offer Dassault couldn't give, but since that version is not really capable and has zero export changes, that offer wasn't useful for India anyway. The Rafale M is in theory an option for IAC2, realistically however it isn't, since it lacks the twin seater that IN might require, has no folding wings which requires more space at the carrier and reduces the number of fighters that could be used and with the late induction of IAC2, anything else than a stealth fighter doesn't make sense anyway. So if we want to get something from Dassault for the navy, than it should be assistiance on developing a naval AMCA, rather than Rafale M.


How about buying 1 sqd of Rafale till AMCA is ready (say,2030) and then transferring those to maritime strike sqd of IAF?


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## sancho

Agent_47 said:


> How about buying 1 sqd of Rafale till AMCA is ready (say,2030) and then transferring those to maritime strike sqd of IAF?



The requirement is for at least 7 x Squads, which can't wait till 2030, so either MMRCAs, or another option in the 2016 to 2025 timeframe. So AMCA is no alternative, at least not for IAF.


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## Agent_47

sancho said:


> The requirement is for at least 7 x Squads, which can't wait till 2030, so either MMRCAs, or another option in the 2016 to 2025 timeframe. So AMCA is no alternative, at least not for IAF.


No,i was talking about Rafale M , buy a sqd for IAC-2 till N-AMCA is ready and replace those rafale in the maritime strike sqd of IAF


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## sancho

Agent_47 said:


> No,i was talking about Rafale M , buy a sqd for IAC-2 till N-AMCA is ready and replace those rafale in the maritime strike sqd of IAF



From my reply to DacterSaab:



sancho said:


> The Rafale M is in theory an option for IAC2, realistically however it isn't, since it lacks the twin seater that IN might require, has no folding wings which requires more space at the carrier and reduces the number of fighters that could be used and with the late induction of IAC2, anything else than a stealth fighter doesn't make sense anyway. So if we want to get something from Dassault for the navy, than it should be assistiance on developing a naval AMCA, rather than Rafale M.


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## DacterSaab

sancho said:


> Only countries with low threat perceptions and even lower defence budgets leased Gripens, because that's what it is, a low cost, reasonably capable fighter for air policing or CAS rols and nothing that makes a difference for us.


Hi @sancho in MMRCA according to you which was a better fighter F-16IN or Gripen NG? I'd really appreciate if others would contribute? I don't know much about either one of the fighters?



sancho said:


> they denied to use it in LCA and even deny co-developments with the Israelis based on that techs.


Is it still possible to build independent AESA as JV or maybe with help from Israel as we did with LCA when we approached France?



sancho said:


> only less important stuff in smaller numbers will be procured from the US


Can F-35C for IAC-2 fall under that category?


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## sancho

DacterSaab said:


> in MMRCA according to you which was a better fighter F-16IN or Gripen NG?



For MMRCA, it's simple, the Gripen! It was offered initially mainly with Israeli techs and weapons, with more independance to integrate Indian stuff, was not in operational service in PAF for decades. These points made it more useful for India, even if the risks of delays were clearly higher. The F16 is a great fighter, but not for India! 




DacterSaab said:


> Is it still possible to build independent AESA as JV or maybe with help from Israel as we did with LCA when we approached France?



It is possible to jointly develop an AESA, based on our requirements but with foreign partners, but not for Rafale since it already has a ready developed and fully integrated AESA.




DacterSaab said:


> Can F-35C for IAC-2 fall under that category?



Yes, an RFI was sent to LM for the F35C too, but with all the operational restrictions and the high costs, it will be more than difficult for them to seal a deal with India. Actually the only reason might be a coupled offer with EMALS, which the IN desperately wants for, but even here the upgraded F18SH + EMALS would be the better choice for us, far more cost-effective and the better stop gap solution for an AMCA.


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## sancho

Rafael vs Thales / Sagem, an interesting battle on the Indian market, which now might have a big impact in the Mirage 2000 upgrade and the Rafale procurement:


SPICE 2000 vs AASM 1000 (2000lb class PGM for heavy strikes) - 1:0 for Israel in the Mirage 2000 upgrade, most likely also for Rafale











Litening G4 vs Damocles / PDL NG (targeting pod) - "rumored" 2:0 for Israel, most likely for Mirage 2000 UPG and Rafale











Other possible battles:

SPICE 250 vs AASM 125/250 (250 to 500lb class PGMs for CAS and SEAD) - possible cost advantage for the Israeli bomb kit, but also in guidance, range and load capabilities.










Reccelite vs Reco NG (reconnaissance pods) - possible technical advantage for the French pod, which is already integrated, while the Israeli pod would offer simple integrate and use to any Indian fighter with Litening pods.


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## halloweene

Eric Trappier (Dassault CEO) sentence today about BJP victory : "For us, it is reassuring because I think this will further accelerate the process".

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## DacterSaab

sancho said:


> For MMRCA, it's simple, the Gripen! It was offered initially mainly with Israeli techs and weapons, with more independance to integrate Indian stuff, was not in operational service in PAF for decades. These points made it more useful for India, even if the risks of delays were clearly higher. The F16 is a great fighter, but not for India!





sancho said:


> No it doesn't, if that would be the aim we would go for early Pak Fa around 2016 and not F35s around 2018 and beyond.


2014 is going on even if we want early PAK-FA today, it cannot arrive before 2018. Also early PAK-FA and JSF are both designed for seprate roles and with seprate combat philosphy in mind. Infact there are several missions that JSF is capable of doing that early PAK-FA cannot and vice-versa. Also there is no reason why an Air Force shouldn't or can't operate both. Also the US are aiming to somehow sell them to us.



sancho said:


> They offered a full partnership, with access to all techs


Access to all techs of EADS origin which is not 100% of the EFT since it uses certain techs of US origin.



sancho said:


> production of parts for all EFs and export fighters...,


Which does not include the no. of fighters already being inducted also there is hardly any export potential left definitely not enough to cover up the cost we would have to invest in EFT in order to fund additional required capabilities which the developing nations do not seem interested in anymore except perhaps Germany.



sancho said:


> not to mention that they can provide it through Airbus and BAE, 2 of the biggest defence companies in the world, which alone makes it industrially far different, than what Dassault could offer.


Not to mention deliveries could be halted at the mere whim of any of the partners than France which is highly unlikely to do so.



sancho said:


> The Rafale M is in theory an option for IAC2, realistiacally however it isn't, since it lacks the twin seater that IN might require,


If it is required it can easily be developed.



sancho said:


> has no folding wings which requires more space at the carrier and reduces the number of fighters that could be used


If it is good enough for French on CDG, then it should be good enough for us.



sancho said:


> with the late induction of IAC2, anything else than a stealth fighter doesn't make sense anyway.


true, i forgot that the date of induction of IAC-2 has been revised and is not expected to enter service before 2025, although do you know if the design has been frozen yet?



sancho said:


> So if we want to get something from Dassault for the navy, than it should be assistiance on developing a naval AMCA, rather than Rafale M.


Yes, but that will be welcome from EADS also should there be any problem with Dassualt.



sancho said:


> Nope! First of all, there is no opposition when it comes to the defence of India, since the ruling government and the oppositions must have the same aim here.
> What the opposition has to do is, to check the government decisions for irregularities and if found make them visible. But what the BJP did wrt Rafale and even before the shortlisting or selection of Rafale, was complete baseless ranting, only aimed at the fighter and Dassault actually. They didn't even really attacked the MoD, which shows that they do have some issues with the selection of Rafale, for whatever reasons.


that maybe true, but they should not screw up this deal, if they truly want the benefit of Indian Defense.



sancho said:


> Not really, performance whise the EF is clearly better. Be it speed in general, Supercruise capability, ceilling..., up to the fact that it can carry more METEOR in every role compared to the Rafale and that in a low drag & RCS config, and as I recently explained, the advantage of Rafales weapon pack is reducing currently, with AASMs future in doubt on the one side, Storm Shadow, Paveway IV and possibly Brimstone beeing added on the other side.
> Rafale has only Scalp, EF will now get Storm Shadow (the sister of Scalp if you want) and later also Taurus, which were part of the EFs offer in MMRCA:


Maybe, but you, yourself are aware of certain areas in which Rafale scores higher than EFT and where EFT will not be able to match Rafales capability even after very expensive upgrades funded by India.




sancho said:


> Not at all! It's even exactly the same game! The same fighters in the competition, initially even with the same priorities (capability of the fighter and strategic / industrial advantages), which resulted into clear preferences , but then were delayed to the elections, whith the government providing the decision to the next one. That then re-evaluated the decision once more with different prioities (which BJP is free to do now as well) and the final selection of a totally different fighter.
> Not what I want, but what realistically can happen!


True but, with the threat perception of India, there is no other fighter except Rafale that can provide us with same, maybe even similar, capabilities at a lower cost or with higher benefits. Be it industrial or geopolitical.



sancho said:


> Not that related anymore, but still interesting:


Bad news for Saab.



sancho said:


> For MMRCA, it's simple, the Gripen! It was offered initially mainly with Israeli techs and weapons, with more independance to integrate Indian stuff, was not in operational service in PAF for decades. These points made it more useful for India, even if the risks of delays were clearly higher. The F16 is a great fighter, but not for India!


Not only for MMRCA or IAF but in general as a whole?



sancho said:


> F18SH


No way in 2025 even Rafale isn't good enough and would be better stop gap since IAF will operate them.


----------



## Yeti

halloweene said:


> Eric Trappier (Dassault CEO) sentence today about BJP victory : "For us, it is reassuring because I think this will further accelerate the process".



I think it will be signed early 2015 myself if not the year end being optimistic but with the size of this deal anything is possible still.


----------



## sancho

halloweene said:


> Eric Trappier (Dassault CEO) sentence today about BJP victory : "For us, it is reassuring because I think this will further accelerate the process".



That's only one part, the more interesting one was this:



> Chief Executive Eric Trappier said he *hoped* to sign a deal to sell Rafale fighter jets to India *by the end of the year* following the election of pro-business candidate Narendra Modi as the country's new prime minister.



Dassault hopes to sign Rafale India deal this year| Reuters


So much for accelerating the process! In fact all his recent statements showed nothing more than hope on a decision nothing more and this with a decision by the end of the year, rather than after the elections like it might had been the case with the UPA government, if they had won is more than downer and hints more to risk of re-evaluating things as I said.


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## sancho

DacterSaab said:


> 2014 is going on even if we want early PAK-FA today, it cannot arrive before 2018.



That's not correct, the Russian air force still aims on induction between 2015 and 2016, the question is only what capabilities that version will have. 



DacterSaab said:


> Infact there are several missions that JSF is capable of doing that early PAK-FA cannot and vice-versa.



Not really, both are multi role fighters, but the F35 is simply badly designed for A2A and with limited capacity during strike roles too.
It is even likely that the Pak Fa can carry more AAMs with the same strike load, to further distances than the F35 could. 



DacterSaab said:


> Access to all techs of EADS origin which is not 100% of the EFT since it uses certain techs of US origin.



Only minor components, all major techs (radar, engine, EW) are developed in Europe. 



DacterSaab said:


> Which does not include the no. of fighters already being inducted


Of course not, that's not possible since we have no production line runing today, but that doesn't matter, even if we would take over parts of the production of upgrades alone, it would mean parts for more than 500 fighter + the once we would order, which would be a huge deal from an industrial point of view. I showed some month ago that LCA MK1 and the EF actually have pretty similar MFDs and cockpit layouts. LCA Mk2 will get modernised MFDs, so even if we would provide them only for the future modernisation of that many EFs it would be a win. 



DacterSaab said:


> If it is required it can easily be developed.



Only with credible fundings, which is the reason the French cancelled the development of the naval twin seater and for the few fighters that we would need, an additional development makes no sense. 



DacterSaab said:


> If it is good enough for French on CDG, then it should be good enough for us.



It was good for the French because it was a big leap in capability compared to the single role fighters it started replacing more than a decade ago and on a carrier that already was developed. So they had no other option anyway, while we can still decide about the design and layout of the carrier as well as it's fighters, or the numbers of fighters that the carrier should carry, which makes the situation pretty different.



DacterSaab said:


> Yes, but that will be welcome from EADS also should there be any problem with Dassualt.



They already assist us in navalising N-LCA, but normally (although that is relative in India), you take a partner that has credible experience or could even provide of the shelf parts, like the modified gear of the Rafale M. 



DacterSaab said:


> Maybe, but you, yourself are aware of certain areas in which Rafale scores higher than EFT and where EFT will not be able to match Rafales capability even after very expensive upgrades funded by India.



I am actually more afraid of a blind indigenous development policy, that would cancell the MMRCA completelly rather than the EF winning, but we simply can't rule out that the BJP wants to re-evaluate or would be influenced by the EF partners.




DacterSaab said:


> True but, with the threat perception of India, there is no other fighter except Rafale that can provide us with same, maybe even similar, capabilities at a lower cost or with higher benefits. Be it industrial or geopolitical.



For the threat perception an EF with some upgrades would be more than deadly too, but it's the high costs that it's main disadvantage

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## Abingdonboy

Agent_47 said:


> No,i was talking about Rafale M , buy a sqd for IAC-2 till N-AMCA is ready and replace those rafale in the maritime strike sqd of IAF


IAC-2 will be in service by around 2022-4 and will serve for 30 years. It makes zero sense to buy Rafale Ms for the IAC-2. The IAC-2 needs a next generation fighter from day one but then I am all out of ideas to be honest because there is no way the N-AMCA will be ready for that time, I have serious reservations about F-35 and the N-FGFA supposedly will not be able to take off using catapults so solve that conundrum......



sancho said:


> That's only one part, the more interesting one was this:
> 
> 
> 
> Dassault hopes to sign Rafale India deal this year| Reuters
> 
> 
> So much for accelerating the process! In fact all his recent statements showed nothing more than hope on a decision nothing more and this with a decision by the end of the year, rather than after the elections like it might had been the case with the UPA government, if they had won is more than downer and hints more to risk of re-evaluating things as I said.


I think you are reading too much into this to be fair. He would be stupid and foolish to say he was certain because things can change and he can't leave himself exposed like that. Being hopeful is all he can say right now, anything more than that on his part would be silly.


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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> I think you are reading too much into this to be fair. He would be stupid and foolish to say he was certain because things can change and he can't leave himself exposed like that. Being hopeful is all he can say right now, anything more than that on his part would be silly.



Actually it was his statement that he on the one side believes in fasten the decision thanks to BJP, but at the same time hopes for a decision only by the end of the year. That actually shows his own uncertainty doesn't it? And depending on what BJP thinks when they have their government set up and actually are in charge, needs to be seen too. It's just sad considering that the deal could had been done by last year, if these useless workshare issues hadn't came up.

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## DacterSaab

DacterSaab said:


> For MMRCA, it's simple, the Gripen! It was offered initially mainly with Israeli techs and weapons, with more independance to integrate Indian stuff, was not in operational service in PAF for decades. These points made it more useful for India, even if the risks of delays were clearly higher. The F16 is a great fighter, but not for India!


Sorry, but I meant in general for any country with high defense requirements is F_16IN a better fighter or Gripen NG?



sancho said:


> That's not correct, the Russian air force still aims on induction between 2015 and 2016, the question is only what capabilities that version will have.


Most probably only A2A capabilities and even with Russian induction by 2015/2016, the induction in IAF won't be before 2018.



sancho said:


> Not really, both are multi role fighters, but the F35 is simply badly designed for A2A and with limited capacity during strike roles too.


True but JSF specializes in A2G while PAK-FA will have limited A2G capability for atleast a decade if induction is by 2015/2016. Even early FGFAs may be limited in A2G roles.



sancho said:


> so even if we would provide them only for the future modernisation of that many EFs it would be a win.


But will that be sufficient to cover-up the integrations we will have to fund?



sancho said:


> Only with credible fundings, which is the reason the French cancelled the development of the naval twin seater and for the few fighters that we would need, an additional development makes no sense.


Most probably few stop-gap RafaleM would only be ordered if earliest induction is by 2025 until NAMCA is developed. Although how they are gonna make AMCA capable of CATOBAR operations without designing for it since the beginning beats me.



sancho said:


> while we can still decide about the design and layout of the carrier as well as it's fighters,


No carrier is expected to fly the same aircraft throughout it's service-life, you need to keep the future in mind while designing a Carrier.



sancho said:


> or the numbers of fighters that the carrier should carry, which makes the situation pretty different.


The strength of CDG's fighter group is more than enough for a 45k tonne carrier.



sancho said:


> I am actually more afraid of a blind indigenous development policy, that would cancell the MMRCA completelly rather than the EF winning, but we simply can't rule out that the BJP wants to re-evaluate or would be influenced by the EF partners.


Take my word they're not gonna cancel MMRCA. The indigenous developments cannot compensate the drop in squad strength a cancellation at this point will manifest. Also if they would be influenced by EF const. then I'm sure US will try to influence them as well.



Abingdonboy said:


> serve for 30 years.


Unless it is nuclear powered in which case make it 50 years.


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## sancho

DacterSaab said:


> Sorry, but I meant in general for any country with high defense requirements is F_16IN a better fighter or Gripen NG?



The Gripen is still much undeveloped and a lot of the promised specs seems to be just SAAB's PR and not realistic. It surely is a good fighter, the addition of fuel and hardpoints was a really smart move, but remains mainly a fighter for air policing and lighter payload capabilities. The F16 on the other hand is a propper medium class fighter, with highly upgraded techs and capabilities but based on an old design, with not much future potential anymore. 



DacterSaab said:


> True but JSF specializes in A2G while PAK-FA will have limited A2G capability for atleast a decade if induction is by 2015/2016. Even early FGFAs may be limited in A2G roles.



That's not correct, F35s "specialisation" in A2G is mainly aimed on carrying bigger strike loads, than what was planned for the F22 and the integrated LDP (which also will be used as IRST). The Pak Fa / FGFA on the other side, is estimated to carry as big strike loads + additional AAMs, with far more available power, to greater ranges. So it is geared for long range strikes from the start as well.



DacterSaab said:


> But will that be sufficient to cover-up the integrations we will have to fund?



Multiple times, we fund and develop the MFDs for LCA MK2 anyway and selling the same to several hundred other fighters would pay the funds back in no time. We even sell avionics for Flankers today, which initially were developed for our MKIs too. Doing the same in a partnership would just open more options to sell Indian techs and parts.



DacterSaab said:


> Take my word they're not gonna cancel MMRCA



That would be the worst case scenario.

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## arp2041



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## halloweene

arp2041 said:


>


Just to say, i know Lionel Charlet is very touchy about his pictures, so if you use them you should mention him

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## arp2041

halloweene said:


> Just to say, i know Lionel Charlet is very touchy about his pictures, so if you use them you should mention him



Thanks. My Bad


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## A.P. Richelieu

sancho said:


> The Gripen is still much undeveloped and a lot of the promised specs seems to be just SAAB's PR and not realistic.
> ...



Would be interested to understand, what you think is unrealistic.


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## A.P. Richelieu

sancho said:


> Not that related anymore, but still interesting:
> 
> 
> 
> Saab Loses $3.5 Billion Jet Order as Swiss Reject Gripen - Bloomberg



Yes, the Swiss wants schools and public transportation, so they actually vote against replacing the F-5
with any fighter.


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## sancho

A.P. Richelieu said:


> Would be interested to understand, what you think is unrealistic.



Their emptyweight for example is higher than they advertised so far, which than diverts into far lower payloads too (which were theoretical figures from Saab anyway and would only be possible with IFR after take off) and possibly changes the SC performance as well. Also their cost per hour estimates, which kept changing all the time, even within the same competitions. 
As long as it's not developed with a propper LSP version rather than a tech demonstrator, too much is uncertain and now with Switzerland out and Sweden only upgrading older Gripens the E level, everything is dependent on the Brazilian order and what requirements they have.

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## sancho

> *The new Government must move decisively to boost our defence capabilities*
> 
> The Indian Air Force's Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) programme earned its sobriquet of being the 'mother of all procurements' due its cost, pegged at around US $10 billion in 2007.
> But seven years down the line, and after the selection of the French Rafale post rigorous evaluation trials, the acquisition still remains some distance away.
> The project has been set upon by some analysts, who have cited high costs in an aim to derail it. This is unfortunate and does not bode well for our defence preparedness...



The new Government must move decisively to boost our defence capabilities | Mail Online


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## sancho

Very interesting!

SPEAR missile showcased for the possible EF weapon pack on the ILA airshow in Berlin:

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## kaykay

@sancho Does this mean Modi is serious about 'urgent' needs of armed forces?
Armed with Presentations, Military Chiefs Prep to Meet Narendra Modi | NDTV.com


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## A.P. Richelieu

sancho said:


> Their emptyweight for example is higher than they advertised so far, which than diverts into far lower payloads too (which were theoretical figures from Saab anyway and would only be possible with IFR after take off) and possibly changes the SC performance as well. Also their cost per hour estimates, which kept changing all the time, even within the same competitions.
> As long as it's not developed with a propper LSP version rather than a tech demonstrator, too much is uncertain and now with Switzerland out and Sweden only upgrading older Gripens the E level, everything is dependent on the Brazilian order and what requirements they have.



It was decided to not upgrade older Gripens, so all Gripen E will be built from scratch.
This was before the Switzerland decision, so maybe they will change back.
Sweden will also get 10 more so total reduction will be 12 aircraft.


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## sancho

A.P. Richelieu said:


> It was decided to not upgrade older Gripens, so all Gripen E will be built from scratch.





> FMV has today placed an order for modification of 60 Gripen C to Gripen E with initial deliveries in 2018. This is the third order under the agreement with FMV for Gripen E that was made public on 15 February 2013. Other orders within the agreement are as follows:



Saab receives serial production order for Gripen E to Sweden


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## sancho

> *ILA2014: Eurofighter and MBDA announce 'paradigm shift' in Typhoon capabilities*
> 
> Integration of the MBDA Meteor beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile (BVRAAM), Storm Shadow/Taurus cruise missile, and Brimstone air-to-surface missile onto the Eurofighter Typhoon will represent "a paradigm shift" in the combat aircraft's capabilities, company officials announced on 21 May.
> Speaking at the ILA Airshow in Berlin, officials from both Eurofighter and MBDA noted how the integration of these new weapon systems onto the Typhoon will keep the fighter at the forefront of military capability for the coming decades...
> ...While the *Meteor BVRAAM and Storm Shadow/Taurus* systems are being integrated onto the Typhoon under the Phase 1 Enhancements B (P1EB) package *to be rolled out in the next six to 12 months*, the *Brimstone integration is a separate effort* being carried out by the United Kingdom *with a view to having the Typhoon fully multirole capable by 2018*, in time for the planned retirement of the Tornado GR.4 in 2019.



ILA2014: Eurofighter and MBDA announce 'paradigm shift' in Typhoon capabilities - IHS Jane's 360


Now that can be a huge game changer for MMRCA! If true, IAF could get EFs with METEOR even before the first Rafale with the missile might be available (2018 onwards), but more importantly would be more capable in CAS as I assuemed some weeks ago, with Paveway IV and Brimstone integrated. Storm Shadow will also be available, but basically useless for deep strikes without the CFTs, which might come around 2020 with SPEAR, which both puts the EF then on a whole different level as a multi role fighter, even superior to Rafale at least in terms of weapon capabilities!

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## Agent_47



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## Indus Falcon

Agent_47 said:


>


When and where was this pic taken? Details please!


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## A.P. Richelieu

sancho said:


> Saab receives serial production order for Gripen E to Sweden


Yes, but that was changed a month ago, so no Gripen C/D will be rebuilt to Gripen E.
The numbers were also increased from 60 to 70.


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## atlssa

sancho said:


> Saab receives serial production order for Gripen E to Sweden


They will upgrade the Gripen C with the NG features, but fully conversion is impossible. The airframes are different.
Please note that they will do both things, upgrade the C models with NG features and produce 60 to 70 new E models.


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## 1000

_Official news but not published_

IQAF commanders have revealed that France offered to arm Iraq with *Dassault Rafale *and NH-90 helicopters during the anti-terrorism conference a while ago.

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## godofwar




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## A.P. Richelieu

atlssa said:


> They will upgrade the Gripen C with the NG features, but fully conversion is impossible. The airframes are different.
> Please note that they will do both things, upgrade the C models with NG features and produce 60 to 70 new E models.


No, the upgrade has been abolished, because of requests for lease agreements by foreign Air Forces.

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## atlssa

Abu Nasar said:


> When and where was this pic taken? Details please!


The picture was taken over Paris on September 20, 2013.

Business - Airbus A400M finally delivered to French officials - France 24



A.P. Richelieu said:


> No, the upgrade has been abolished, because of requests for lease agreements by foreign Air Forces.



I see... All of them?

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## sancho

atlssa said:


> They will upgrade the Gripen C with the NG features, but fully conversion is impossible. The airframes are different.
> Please note that they will do both things, upgrade the C models with NG features and produce 60 to 70 new E models.



That's not correct, Sweden has no money for so many new once, that's why they only went for the upgrade. The total potential of their order was between 60 and 80 only, which includes the upgraded once.



> ...Speaking at the company's Linköping production facility near Stockholm in mid-March, Lennart Sindahl, head of the Aeronautics division at Saab...
> ...*With the final C/D block upgrade for the Swedish Air Force (SwAF) being the MS 20 standard *(MS 21 will form the initial Gripen E configuration), *future C/D upgrades will be designated MS 20+*, and the like...
> ...Saab is under contract *to rebuild 60 of the SwAF's 75 Gripen C airframes into Gripen Es* (although this may increase to 70 under recent government proposals to strengthen national defence in light of the Ukrainian crisis). The air force's 25 twin-seat Gripen Ds will remain in service as operational trainer aircraft until all Gripen Es have been delivered in 2026.
> 
> *Although the current contract is to convert Gripen C airframes into Gripen Es *...



ILA2014: Czechs showcase Gripen C at Berlin, as Saab promises future upgrades - IHS Jane's 360


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## atlssa

1000 said:


> _Official news but not published_
> IQAF commanders have revealed that France offered to arm Iraq with *Dassault Rafale *and NH-90 helicopters during the anti-terrorism conference a while ago.




Is it possible to get more details about it?



sancho said:


> That's not correct, Sweden has no money for so many new once, that's why they only went for the upgrade. The total potential of their order was between 60 and 80 only, which includes the upgraded once.



I believe you're wrong my friend, but let's not discuss about them. I don't really care about their Gripen, as long as we get ours. LOL


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## Donatello

sancho said:


> That's more than enough to change the game, because reviewing things can be done with different priorities. We have seen that in the Brazilian competition, where the earlier government had the focus on political long term and industrial advantages, while the current government changed the priorities to an increased focus on costs too. That then naturally played against the Rafale, that was found to be the most capable / suitable fighter, based on technical standards, but had no chance to remain a viable choice, in a country with increasing economic and financial problems.
> 
> In India finiancial prioirities might not be the issue, but when the focus is changed on indigenous techs, based on blind patroism, the LCA will gain more importance than an MMRCA and that just like in Switzerland, even if it's below the required technical requirements of the MMRCA!
> The other point is, that the EF consortium with it's powerful private industrial players and influencial European governments behind it, will have a complete new partner to push for. Antony was highly focused on a clean competion, without any political influence and he achived that. The MMRCA is maybe one of the very few competition, where even the vendors that lost out, had praised MoD and IAF for how the competition was done, even if they were unfortunate to be out.
> IF BJP however review the competition and decides that more industrial and political points must have priorities, the EF will surely get a boost!
> And as I said recently, even if you look at both fighters not only based on the competition results and offers, but include the delayed delivery, as well as the changes of both fighters with technical prospect in mind, things can change for the Rafale!
> 
> The original Rafale offer, of course included IRST (which than was still in production), HMS to fulfill the requirements, but also had the Damocles XF LDP on offer, which was meant to be available by 2016, not to mention that one of the crucial capabilities for the Rafale is the AASM.
> When you look at the Rafale today and with a possible delivery by 2017/18, you will see that the IRST is not available anymore and fulfilling the requirements requires additional funds, funds that already are needed to integrate the HMS. The fact that the French went for a French specific F3R upgrade, rather than one that is orientend at increasing export customer demands, killed the Damocles XF and now give an alternative only by 2018. For India that means integrating the Litening is a must have, not only a would be nice to have, which again requires credible additional fundings. And to make it worse, they didn't tried to develop a more cost-effective AASM version, or focused on exports, but even allowed the UAE to integrate their own PGM, which basically kills AASM exports for Rafale as well. And when you see that even the French forces actually don't want additional AASMs (still didn't funded the AASM 1000, which might be one reason why it's lost in the Mirage upgrade against SPICE 2000), but also integrated the more cost-effective GBU 49 as the CAS weapon in mass, you have to see that the potential of the Rafale with AASM is clearly going down. If we don't order it now, we might not even get it at all anymore and we all know that IAF had issues with high costly, French bombs in limited numbers before, which doesn't play in favour for the AASM either. Here again, the Israelis might offer soon a far more capable and cost-effective alternative with the SPICE 250, but that obviously not only for the Rafale!
> 
> So a BJP that claims to aim on pushing indigenous developments (LCA), is pro foreign industry involvement on the Indian market (EF consortium + partnership in the consortium for India) and even a new technical review on the shortlisted fighters, would all work against the Rafale. Actually the real pro side currently seems to be the relations of BJP and Reliance, which might influcence the government for a higher workshare for them.




If i were to take your points with merit, then they surely reek of India's incompetence to get a fighter system that is long over due and French arrogance. Even if the new government was to fast track the signing, who gets the local benefits? Is it the same tycoons who already have money and hence will make some more without the benefits actually trickling in the society?

Best bet would be to sign the deal, even if not in full numbers, and let HAL be responsible.



sancho said:


> That's not correct, Sweden has no money for so many new once, that's why they only went for the upgrade. The total potential of their order was between 60 and 80 only, which includes the upgraded once.
> 
> 
> 
> ILA2014: Czechs showcase Gripen C at Berlin, as Saab promises future upgrades - IHS Jane's 360



I wouldn't say Sweden doesn't have money. It's just that they don't have money to spend on stuff they wont use. Most of the European nations have given up the concept of war altogether. What they see is limited engagement due to NATO that too led by uncle Sam. Sooner than later most of the defence firms in Europe are going to get really small and go out of business. BAE systems in UK is hell bent on pushing stuff down the throat of RAF/RN just to keep the next generation employed. If you are not to fight a war, what's the point in spending billions of USD which could be spent elsewhere? The rest of the world is measured using the Scandinavian states as a benchmark. Same thing with Switzerland.

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## sancho

Possible EF solution to counter the Rafale with a last minute offer:

- reduce unit costs, by offering the T3B orders of the partners + the penality costs that normally would go for the EF consortium companies (paying penality to India, but keeping the production line open beyond 2020 with IAF's orders, is better than paying the penality and ending the production around 2017/18!)

- provide India with 2-3 squads of EF T3A directly from Europe, with METEOR and Paveway IV, within the next few years, (4 EF partners can produce more fighters in a shorter term, than Dassault could with a rate of 11 fighters a year)

- provide India a joint engine development offer - Kaveri / EJ 230 with 3D TVC (crucial for LCA and a future AMCA)

- get as much commonality between LCA MK2 and EF T3B (advanced MFDs, UV MAWS, PIRATE IRST...) as part of the Indian contribution to the EF consortium and include Indian funds for the AESA and CFT development till 2018

=> lower unit cost for MMRCA (operational cost will remain an issue though)
=> countering the falling squadron numbers faster
=> getting METEOR to S. Asia within the next few years
=> crucial techs for Indias indigenous engine and fighter developments
=> higher benefit for indigenous industry through large export



atlssa said:


> I believe you're wrong my friend, but let's not discuss about them. I don't really care about their Gripen, as long as we get ours. LOL



Latest news from Saab officials, not mine.



Donatello said:


> I wouldn't say Sweden doesn't have money.



Then you clearly have no idea about their budget problems and the reduction of their forces. The simple fact that they have no money to operate the Gripens they already have produced, is the reason why the lease 2nd hand Gripen C/Ds or even Saab 2000 MPAs to every export customer that wants them. They offered India Gripen C/Ds as stop gaps too, just like Switzerland that should get some, or Brazil and I'm pretty sure their chances to win with a leasing deal in Malaysia too, are pretty good too, since Malaysia can't afford new fighters anymore too.


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## atlssa

@Donatello 
@sancho 

Any idea about Modi' MoD yet?



sancho said:


> Latest news from Saab officials, not mine.



Hmmm
I see! In the case it is possible, please give me more details about it!


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## sancho

atlssa said:


> Any idea about Modi' MoD yet?
> 
> Hmmm
> I see! In the case it is possible, please give me more details about it!



No waiting for more infos as well and check the link in post #9574, it's with statements of Saab officials at the current ILA Air Show in Berlin and just a few days old.

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## Donatello

sancho said:


> Then you clearly have no idea about their budget problems and the reduction of their forces. The simple fact that they have no money to operate the Gripens they already have produced, is the reason why the lease 2nd hand Gripen C/Ds or even Saab 2000 MPAs to every export customer that wants them. They offered India Gripen C/Ds as stop gaps too, just like Switzerland that should get some, or Brazil and I'm pretty sure their chances to win with a leasing deal in Malaysia too, are pretty good too, since Malaysia can't afford new fighters anymore too.



Defense spending is the least of their concerns, and thus least funded. For a nation like Sweden it's total waste when the chances of them being involved in a full war is near zero. Gripen was developed at a time when the there was a decent chance, but that's all gone. Now they need a minimum of force just to keep their men trained etc. They are bordered by Norway and Finland, now tell me who are they going to fight?

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## atlssa

Donatello said:


> who are they going to fight?



You have a point!
During the Cold War they built their military to be able to resist a Soviet invasion, which never happened.


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## halloweene

sancho said:


> ILA2014: Eurofighter and MBDA announce 'paradigm shift' in Typhoon capabilities - IHS Jane's 360
> 
> 
> Now that can be a huge game changer for MMRCA! If true, IAF could get EFs with METEOR even before the first Rafale with the missile might be available (2018 onwards), but more importantly would be more capable in CAS as I assuemed some weeks ago, with Paveway IV and Brimstone integrated. Storm Shadow will also be available, but basically useless for deep strikes without the CFTs, which might come around 2020 with SPEAR, which both puts the EF then on a whole different level as a multi role fighter, even superior to Rafale at least in terms of weapon capabilities!



just a little answer : METEOR will be available in 2018 for french airforce as part of the F3R software upgrade, but it is being integrated and coul be available before (best gusee 2016 as first "live" shot scheduled in Jan 2015). Paveway IV is not adaptable to non english bomb bodies, and is far from haveing the same capabilities as AASM (off boresight etc.) Gliding bombs have advantage in terms of cost, but are much less versatile.



1000 said:


> _Official news but not published_
> 
> IQAF commanders have revealed that France offered to arm Iraq with *Dassault Rafale *and NH-90 helicopters during the anti-terrorism conference a while ago.


Asked to Dassault, they simply laughed.


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## 1000

halloweene said:


> Asked to Dassault, they simply laughed.




It might be wrong information, but the one that said it brings us a lot of true news before it reaches the media, time will tell.
However France did say that they seek to supply arms to Iraq.

I saw you discussed this with other member on the other forum 'Sheytan..' , things are unclear.


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## Indus Falcon

sancho said:


> That's not correct, Sweden has no money for so many new once, that's why they only went for the upgrade. The total potential of their order was between 60 and 80 only, which includes the upgraded once.
> 
> 
> 
> ILA2014: Czechs showcase Gripen C at Berlin, as Saab promises future upgrades - IHS Jane's 360


Sweden May Fund Gripen-E Even Without International Partner | Defense News | defensenews.com

*HELSINKI* — The Swedish government has signaled it is ready to roll back a stipulation in its 2012 agreement with Saab that required an international partner to be in place before funding could continue for the Gripen-E project.

The government’s new, softer line, reinforced by the Ministry of Defense, puts the Gripen-E project into the category of “too big to fail.”

In the 2012 Gripen-E project agreement with Saab, the MoD stipulated that it held the right to rescind funding if an international partner could not be found to share costs and develop export markets for the aircraft. The Swedish state has already invested more than $300 million in the Gripen-E development program.

Sweden had long pinned its Gripen-E international partner hopes on Switzerland, but this avenue of cooperation was closed on May 18 when the Swiss, by a 53.4 percent referendum vote, rejected a government plan to spend $3.5 billion on acquiring 22 aircraft from Saab.

Saab has now turned its attention to Brazil. Sweden continues to negotiate a broad industry partnership to produce an initial 36 Gripen-Es for the Brazilian Air Force in cooperation with the country’s aerospace sector. Under this industrial program, Saab is building an aircraft production facility outside Sao Paulo.

“With Switzerland gone, the focus has naturally shifted to Brazil. The government has until the end of 2014 to demonstrate that the Gripen-E can find an export partner, otherwise the issue will revert to parliament for debate and possibly a vote on the Gripen-E’s future,” said Peter Hultqvist, chairman of the Parliamentary Committee On Defense.

The international partnership agreement offered by Sweden to Brazil is designed to provide strong economic benefits for all parties covering design, production, operation and lifecycle maintenance, said Karin Enström, Sweden’s defense minister.

“As I see it, the Gripen-E project’s future will require the parliament to give the government freedom of action. We need to increase our defense capability and the new Gripen is the most cost-effective way to do it. Global developments in recent months have shown that we really need Gripen E, and there is broad political support for the aircraft. Our air-defense capability, and the needs of our Air Force, must be prioritized,” said Enström.

Negotiations on an industrial agreement tied to a Gripen-E contract with Brazil are expected to be completed in December, said Hultqvist.

“This gives the government some time, but not a lot, to turn matters around and lift confidence in the Gripen-E project. Such negotiations are always uncertain. It should be remembered that Saab invested 10 years negotiating a Gripen sale to Switzerland, and as it turns out, it has no sales to show for it,” Hultqvist said

The Swedish government clearly wants to proceed with the Gripen-E project regardless of finding production and export partners, said Åsa Romson, the Green Party’s spokesperson on industry and defense.

“It would appear that the stipulation in the 2012 agreement means less and less, and was added to give the government an exit plan of last resort. The Gripen-E has taken on the stature of a project that is now too big to fail, and it seems it will continue with or without an international partner behind it. Given that Switzerland is no longer an option our party would rather see the project end here,” said Romson.

Saab believes in the long-term potential of the Gripen-E project, and its “development will continue,” said group Chairman Marcus Wallenberg.

Under a framework agreement signed in February 2013, Saab is contracted to deliver 60 Gripen-E aircraft to the Swedish Air Force. This could rise to 80 when the defense allocation is increased significantly after 2015 to accommodate an expanded 40-year Gripen-E program. ■


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## sancho

halloweene said:


> just a little answer : METEOR will be available...as part of the F3R software upgrade


Exactly, that's why the F3+ that are currently in production and could be available by 2016 can't have them.



halloweene said:


> Paveway IV... is far from haveing the same capabilities as AASM


Exactly, but it's main counterpart at Rafale is not AASM but GBU 49! AASM has the mentioned advantages, but they only play a role in precision strikes and SEAD in early war scenarios. In basic CAS it isn't and important choice, since it's far too costly and it's capabilities play a lower role. That's even the reason why French forces forces have added GBU 49 and are searching for another low end CAS weapon.
The counterpart to AASM in the EF might be SPEAR or a similar PGM with stand off capabilities. 


So from what we know so far about the coming EF and Rafale upgrades and taking the new delivery time frame to account (including possible early deliveries), it would be like this for India:

- if signature with MMRCA winner is possible by the end of the year, first squad needs to be delivered at least by the end of 2017

- Rafale needs additional funding for HMS, Litening LDP + IRST production, to fulfill IAF requirements. 
EF needs additional funding for a stand off weapon, AESA and CFTs, to fulfill IAF requirements.

- Dassault can divert around 7 x Rafale F3+ with AESA radar (but without METEOR) from initial French forces orders by 2016 and up to 11 by 2017
The EF partners can divert more EF T3A's with Captor M, Storm Shadow (for close range attack runs) and METEOR from their T3A orders, within the next 2 years

- By 2018 Dassault would be able to deliver F3R's with METEOR, but possibly without AASM anymore (=>no stand off PGM strike / SEAD advantage anymore)
While the EF partners would be able to deliver T3B, with Captor E AESA and Brimstone (AESA and CAS advantage)

- By 2020, the EF could even surpass the Rafale in capability , while the next Rafale upgrade then would be aimed at 2025 only

As I pointed out earlier too, time is playing in favour for the EF and against the Rafale at the moment, because the Saudis helped and the UK (and other partners) might be able to clear further upgrades in the next years. At the same time Rafale is loosing crucial capabilities on the one side and make only less important upgrades for export customers on the other.


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## halloweene

Wait end of june Sancho 
Here is the latest first flight btw (B-347)


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## sancho

halloweene said:


> Wait end of june Sancho



The end of June doesn't change anything as even Mr Tappier said, I am only stating the current situation, be it of the fighters, as well as the political changes and you can't deny the fact that it actually got worse with Rafale during the last few years. When the offer was made in MMRCA, before the trials, only the HMS "needed" to be funded. IRST was under production, the Damocles XF planned within the timeline of the competition and the potential of AASM quiet good. Today all these things have changed, mainly for French centric reasons, but they are counterproductive for exports.

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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> The end of June doesn't change anything as even Mr Tappier said, I am only stating the current situation, be it of the fighters, as well as the political changes and you can't deny the fact that it actually got worse with Rafale during the last few years. When the offer was made in MMRCA, before the trials, only the HMS "needed" to be funded. IRST was under production, the Damocles XF planned within the timeline of the competition and the potential of AASM quiet good. Today all these things have changed, mainly for French centric reasons, but they are counterproductive for exports.


To be honest I don't see the BJP cancelling or amending the Rafale selection for a number of reasons 1) they have criticised Antony for inaction, they come in and their first step is to stall a procurement that has been pending for years, to delay the scrapping of the famed "flying coffins"? I just don't see it. The deal is so close to completion and all the boxes have been ticked bar a few, there's nothing to be gained from scrapping it- NOTHING. You may argue that the BJP would favour the LCA but they aren't stupid and they will be informed of the Rafale's capabilities vis a vis the LCA and how one is not a replacement for the other. And I still don't see a chance for the EFT to come back into the fray, you've said the BJP might take objection to the Rafale's cost? If they say that about the lowest L1 fighter, what will they say about the L2? 2) The IAF will be making their case for the Rafale and they are going to be pushing like hell for it, they know the deal is but weeks away from signing and they aren't going to wait years more, it just can't be done. Modi himself said he would respect and listen to the views of the armed forces and has been briefed by the 3 Cheifs on pending procurements and you can bet this was number 1 on the list. There's no reason for Modi to want to upset the apple cart. 3) there are no grounds to really attack the MMRCA selection process that has got to the Rafale, it has been clean throughout and there is no question of graft- the one achilles heel in every indian procurement that can scupper it in an instant. 4) with the Congress having championed the Rafale throughout and Antony assuring all that this was an apolitical decision there aren't even political grounds for any side to question it. 


I respect your views a lot sir but you seem to be highly skeptical the Rafale will get through but I just don't see where you are coming form or were this cynical approach is coming from. I am expecting a deal before the end of Summer, right now the cabinet hasn't even been formed so it is early days but defence is something Modi has already pointed out as a key concern of his and the Rafale will be ordered of that I am certain. 


Additionally i've heard that Dassualt have been talking to the BJP for a few months now anyway preparing for just this eventuality. 


As for the Domocles XF issues, what's the problem? The IAF will happily take the LITENING G4 anyway which always looked likely as was as the LDP was one of the user designated equipment that all vendors had to assure the IAF would be given the free hand to pick at their whim. Additionally the work to integrate the TOPSIGHT-I HMDS is minimal as Dassualt have already begun intial integration work for the the TOPSIGHT HMDS on the Rafale years back but not pursued it very far but are going to have to do it on the IAF's Mirage 2000-5 Mk.2s anyway and if the Russians could get the TOPSIGHT-I integrated onto the MIG-29Ks and MIG-29UPGs at little expense and difficulty there there is not going to be any real issue for the Rafale. As for AASM, if there is issues with cost and such then the IAF will simply go for the SPICE products form Rafael, they are already looking at these products for the LCA, M2K and MKI.


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## Indo-guy

Livefist: Will India's New Govt Speed Up Multirole Fighter Deal?









Speculation is self-perpetuating. Who will be India's next Defence Minister? Will there be a major shake-up in the MoD? Are bureaucrats running to edit files that could incriminate them in a supposedly less forgiving set-up that takes office next week? What happens to the long list of unfinished procurements, many of them in their final stages, even if that phrase has lost much of its intended meaning in the Indian acquisition context? The truth is, everything came to a shuddering halt at the turn of the year, and hasn't moved since. But that isn't extraordinary. Election season this time has meant, either through force of rules that kick in, or by an understandable escalation of man-in-charge AK Antony's risk-averse approach, decisions got shelved. Thing is, this hasn't always been the case: in 2004, mere weeks before elections, the government of the time concluded a raft of high-value deals, including the Gorshkov and Phalcon AWACS. That same political coalition takes office next week, albeit with an enormously strengthened mandate. In the context of mil modernisation, I'd say that's a good thing.
Anxiety about what could happen to defence procurements initiated by the outgoing government may not be fully in order. Because as with foreign policy, defence modernisation follows a general thread of continuity. Procurement processes begun by one government usually see the next government follow through. I've been getting calls from a folks asking about whether the M-MRCA deal could see a push. Likely, yes. The outgoing defence minister made ambiguous indications about a 're-look' at crucial aspects of the deal, pertaining specifically to life-cycle costs. The Indian Air Force chief Arup Raha is reported to be planning a presentation to the new Prime Minister and the defence minister he chooses, likely early next month. It is clear that the fighter deal tops his list of modernisation priorities.
On their part, the French government and Dassault Aviation have spent the year showing the Rafale off even more, in a series of manoeuvers directed straight at India. It began in January when the IAF was briefed about flight tests of the Rafale in a new 'heavily armed' configuration. In April this year, two Rafales flew non-stop with a tanker from France to Reunion Island in the Southern Indian Ocean for an exercise, an event that the French Embassy in Delhi made it a point to flag up. Also, four French Air Force Rafales will fly in early next month for the Garuda-V joint exercise with the IAF over the deserts of Western India.
The incoming dispensation is _perceived_ to be more sensitive to military needs, certainly far more than the outgoing one. We'll know what they do with that reputation this year. In its last tenure between 1999-2004, the coalition was hailed as understanding modernisation and military affairs better than any dispensation before it. A thundering mandate, that precludes the political sensitivity of tough decisions, means that the military may have some real reason to cheer for the first time in a decade. That's, at least, the hope.

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## halloweene

sancho said:


> The end of June doesn't change anything as even Mr Tappier said, I am only stating the current situation, be it of the fighters, as well as the political changes and you can't deny the fact that it actually got worse with Rafale during the last few years. When the offer was made in MMRCA, before the trials, only the HMS "needed" to be funded. IRST was under production, the Damocles XF planned within the timeline of the competition and the potential of AASM quiet good. Today all these things have changed, mainly for French centric reasons, but they are counterproductive for exports.


I wasn't talking about India when i said June my friend...

An idustrial source (but quite far from the deal so...) told me that 3 countries were asking for fast delivery atm.


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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> 1) they have criticised Antony for inaction, they come in and their first step is to stall a procurement that has been pending for years, to delay the scrapping of the famed "flying coffins"?



Just like they criticized the Rafale numerous times, so by the same logic they MUST take a decision against it, which hopefully is not the case, since their criticized it for nonsense reasons. You are also confusing taking a decision with selecting Rafale, but that's not the same. As I told you earlier, they have 3 options and taking Rafale is just 1 of it. 
And the fastest solution to replace Mig 21s currently is not Rafale either, adding at least another LCA MK1 squadron to the production line before it will switch to MK2 is possible, just like we can get more EF T3A's before we would get the first Rafale squadron. Which shows again, that depending on what the policy of BJP will be in this regard, things can change according to the priorities they see.



Abingdonboy said:


> EFT to come back into the fray, you've said the BJP might take objection to the Rafale's cost?



No I didn't, I said that they might want to re-evaluate the shortlisting, based on their own priorities. If that happens, the EF has any chance to win as well, since it's not out yet, the Rafale currently is only the prefered choice, but from the older government!



Abingdonboy said:


> 3) there are no grounds to really attack the MMRCA selection process that has got to the Rafale


That's what they did for a number of times, especially against Rafale! It actually would make look them pretty bad, when they criticized the fighter and the procedure of shortlisting and now simply would select it. That would even work against your point of being decisive, since they would make a U turn of what they stated, I wouldn't mind it though. 



Abingdonboy said:


> but I just don't see where you are coming form or were this cynical approach is coming from.



- BJPs statements against Rafale, the procedure and their policy statements aimed on indigenous developments
- the fact that we have a new government, with an own defence policy (that will be developed now) and own prioirities
- the fact that BJP has a high priority towards foreign industrial partners, which makes the EF consortium and their better industrial offer preferable
- the fact that the industrial negotiations delayed the selection for more than 2 years and that IAF has to take the changes of the fighters and the time frame into account as well. It would be nuts if they keep basing the fighters bases on what was on offer in 2012
- and sadly even the fact that the Rafale has several issues today, that wasn't available or that bad 2 years ago




Abingdonboy said:


> As for the Domocles XF issues, what's the problem?


Additional cost for integrating a new LDP, that wasn't needed if the Damocles XF would had been available as offered initially. If it has hardly the capabilities comparable to the Litening, IAF/MoD would save the additional costs, as can be seen now in the selection of Asraam over Python V for the Jaguar upgrade. But the French changed the situation by going for PDL NG by 2018 only and offering the clearly inferior Damocles that is available today. 
So we don't have to fund only the HMS as initially, but now also the Litening and even the production of the IRST => additional costs that weren't present in the initial offer! 
We can't simply ignore this changes, only because we like the Rafale, the aim must be to get the best package for IAF and these downers needs to be included in the overall evalution.



halloweene said:


> I wasn't talking about India when i said June my friend...
> 
> An idustrial source (but quite far from the deal so...) told me that 3 countries were asking for fast delivery atm.



Which actually would make it even worse for India, because that means Dassault can provide even less fighters to India in a fast approach.


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## A.P. Richelieu

sancho said:


> That's not correct, Sweden has no money for so many new once, that's why they only went for the upgrade. The total potential of their order was between 60 and 80 only, which includes the upgraded once.
> 
> 
> 
> ILA2014: Czechs showcase Gripen C at Berlin, as Saab promises future upgrades - IHS Jane's 360




Nya uppgifter: Gamla Jas Gripen ska inte slaktas - Omni

Unfortunately, noone told the Swedish Government that the economy is in bad shape,
because they propose 70 new Gripen E (not rebuilt) in their "spring proposition".
I read Swedish Newspapers and watch Swedish news every day. Trust me!


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## DacterSaab

hi could someone pls explain what is the difference b/w LGB like Griffin and PGM like AASM or Spice series?


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## sancho

A.P. Richelieu said:


> I read Swedish Newspapers and watch Swedish news every day. Trust me!



No offence, but I stick to official reports about the order and they are pretty clear.



DacterSaab said:


> hi could someone pls explain what is the difference b/w LGB like Griffin and PGM like AASM or Spice series?



AASM has GPS and INS guidance too, apart from a laser seeker, just like it has a range extention kit, with a rocket propulsion. SPICE kits mainly use a wing kit to extent range, has IR/CCD seekers, apart from GPS/INS guidance

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## Agent_47

sancho said:


> AASM has GPS and INS guidance too, apart from a laser seeker, just like it has a range extention kit, with a rocket propulsion. SPICE kits mainly use a wing kit to extent range, has IR/CCD seekers, apart from GPS/INS guidance


Both are used to add precision to dumb bombs, rite?


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## sancho

Agent_47 said:


> Both are used to add precision to dumb bombs, rite?



Yes compared to older dumb bombs, but LGB usually only use laser guidance and have far less range than many PGMs. Today the trend goes to smaller PGMs with different guidance capabilities to attack stationary and moving targets, in stand off ranges, with all weather capabilities and in higher weapon loads. 

MKI for example can carry around 28 x 100 to 250Kg dumb bombs, but only 6 x KAB 500 PGMs or Sudarshan LGBs, all launched from low ranges below 15Km.
If SPICE 250 for example would be integrated, at least 5 x quad packs could be added with 20 bombs (most likely even more), which can attack targets with high precision from distances up to 100Km

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## halloweene

Well... AASM has IIR capbilities also. I know about the flightblobal article about 100 Kms range, but on Rafael site it is "over 60Kms" (which is already impressive). Once again, gliding bombs are a better bang for the buck but lack versatility vs proppeled.


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## sancho

halloweene said:


> I know about the flightblobal article about 100 Kms range, but on Rafael site it is "over 60Kms"



For the SPICE family, which so far included the 1000 and the 2000. The 60Km is the range for the SPICE 2000, the smaller SPICE 1000 however has a wingkit which further extends the range to 100Km, that's why they stated over 60Km. The latest addtion of SPICE 250 is also aimed at 100Km and that, without a propulsion kit.


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## cloud_9

Full-Time Defence Minister To Be Named in a 'Couple of Weeks': Arun Jaitley | NDTV.com


> He expressed concern over what he called a slowdown in decision-making in defence during the Congress-led UPA regime and said expediting procurement and modernisation in the armed forces would be a top priority of the new government.
> 
> *"The security of India is of vital importance. Support to our armed forces and equipment support is going to be priority area," he said.*
> 
> As Mr Jaitley took over came news that a MIG-21 fighter aircraft of the Indian Air Force had crashed in the Bijbehara area of Anantnag district in Kashmir, killing the pilot. "My heart goes out to the pilot and his family. It's a matter of great concern (today's accident). I offer my condolences," the minister said. (MiG-21 Crashes in J&K, Pilot Dead)

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## sancho

Another pic from the ILA Air Show, with SPEAR 3 and Brimstone missiles:


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## cloud_9

*Rafale To Fly in Indo-French Joint Air Exercises*​NEW DELHI — The French Rafale fighter aircraft, shortlisted by the Indian Air Force (IAF) for its $12 billion Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) program, will engage with IAF aircraft in June 3 joint exercises over the Rajasthan desert.

T*he Indo-French air exercise, Garuda-5, will include four Rafale multirole fighter aircraft and one air refueler that will participate with IAF’s multirole Su-30MKI, MiG-27 and MiG-21 aircraft.*

While the exercise is unlikely to test the performance of the Russian or the French aircraft, it will expose to IAF personnel the French aircraft’s capabilities in maneuvers, said an IAF official. The MMRCA deal, in which Rafale is the preferred aircraft, has been in the contract negotiations stage for more than a year and is awaiting finalization.

“Preference for the French Rafale during the exercise by IAF pilots and personnel will lead to voices from within the IAF for an early inking of the MMRCA contract,” said Nitin Mehta, a defense analyst here.


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## atlssa

*MiG-21 Crashes in Jammu and Kashmir, Pilot Dead*
Updated: May 27, 2014 18:18 IST





​*Jammu: * A MIG-21 fighter aircraft of the Indian Air Force or IAF today crashed in Bijbehara area of Anantnag district in Kashmir, killing the pilot.

The pilot, Squadron Leader Raghuvanshi, 32, was killed in the crash, they said. According to the villagers present there, the pilot steered the plane away from populated areas to save civilians lives. 

"Once we heard about the crash we rushed to the site, took out the body of pilot and handed it over to the army and police," said a villager Mushtaq Ahmad.

The MIG-21, which was on a routine exercise, crashed in an open field at Mirhama in Bijbehara area, 45 kms from Srinagar, defence sources said.

Squadron Leader Bansi was a resident of Surat and had married four years ago.

The MIG-21 had taken off from Technical Airport in Srinagar today morning, sources said.

The cause of the crash was not immediately known. The Air Force has ordered a court of inquiry.

While speaking about the incident, Defence Minister Arun Jaitley said he was "sorry" and that it was "a matter of grave concern."

"My heart goes out to the pilot who lost his life," he said.

Chief Minister Omar Abdullah tweeted, "My condolences to the family, friends & colleagues of the pilot killed in the MIG crash today. May his soul rest in peace."

MiG-21 Crashes in Jammu and Kashmir, Pilot Dead | NDTV.com


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## Abingdonboy

atlssa said:


> *MiG-21 Crashes in Jammu and Kashmir, Pilot Dead*
> Updated: May 27, 2014 18:18 IST
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​*Jammu: * A MIG-21 fighter aircraft of the Indian Air Force or IAF today crashed in Bijbehara area of Anantnag district in Kashmir, killing the pilot.
> 
> The pilot, Squadron Leader Raghuvanshi, 32, was killed in the crash, they said. According to the villagers present there, the pilot steered the plane away from populated areas to save civilians lives.
> 
> "Once we heard about the crash we rushed to the site, took out the body of pilot and handed it over to the army and police," said a villager Mushtaq Ahmad.
> 
> The MIG-21, which was on a routine exercise, crashed in an open field at Mirhama in Bijbehara area, 45 kms from Srinagar, defence sources said.
> 
> Squadron Leader Bansi was a resident of Surat and had married four years ago.
> 
> The MIG-21 had taken off from Technical Airport in Srinagar today morning, sources said.
> 
> The cause of the crash was not immediately known. The Air Force has ordered a court of inquiry.
> 
> While speaking about the incident, Defence Minister Arun Jaitley said he was "sorry" and that it was "a matter of grave concern."
> 
> "My heart goes out to the pilot who lost his life," he said.
> 
> Chief Minister Omar Abdullah tweeted, "My condolences to the family, friends & colleagues of the pilot killed in the MIG crash today. May his soul rest in peace."
> 
> MiG-21 Crashes in Jammu and Kashmir, Pilot Dead | NDTV.com


Right to put this here.

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## atlssa

Abingdonboy said:


> Right to put this here.



I just though it would support the idea the new fighters are urgently needed.

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## Abingdonboy

atlssa said:


> I just though it would support the idea the new fighters are urgently needed.


I agree with you, this is the right place to put it. The Rafale/MMRCA, the LCA and the Su-30 MKI are all meant to replace MiG-21 and MiG-27 SQDs. That is why I have been saying for a long time this deal cannot be delayed anymore- pilots are literally dying waiting.

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## Rahul9090

Qatar nears exclusive talks on buying Rafale fighter | GlobalPost


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## he-man

sancho said:


> Hi, I think it's pretty open at the moment and can even result in a re-evaluation like it was the case in your country after the government change. For India it can look like this:
> 
> 1) BJP (and some push from Reliance) want to fix Rafale deal and focus on that
> 2) BJP want to re-evaluate the shortlisting (pushed by the EF consortium and partner countries, possibly even by the US and Israel in support of the UK/GER) and want to take an own decision, based on own priorities => MMRCA decision gets delayed with all chances for the EF again
> 3) BJP things Rafale is too costly and there should be a higher focus on indigenous developments => MMRCA will be cancelled for LCA / AMCA
> 
> 
> With BJP's obvious negative approach towards the Rafale and promising indigenous developments on the other side, imo it will be difficult now for Dassault, but lets hope for the best!



deal cannot be cancelled,,u will be wrong big time.



Abingdonboy said:


> I agree with you, this is the right place to put it. The Rafale/MMRCA, the LCA and the Su-30 MKI are all meant to replace MiG-21 and MiG-27 SQDs. That is why I have been saying for a long time this deal cannot be delayed anymore- pilots are literally dying waiting.



cancelling this deal is suicidal and won't be done,,,its 100% gonna be signed

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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> I agree with you, this is the right place to put it. The Rafale/MMRCA, the LCA and the Su-30 MKI are all meant to replace MiG-21 and MiG-27 SQDs. That is why I have been saying for a long time this deal cannot be delayed anymore- pilots are literally dying waiting.



Actually it must be posted in the LCA thread, because the delays of the project are the cause for extending Mig 21s operations. More over, the GoI / MoD should show DRDO / ADA how many pilots have died in recent crashes because they didn't got their acts together in the LCA project!



he-man said:


> deal cannot be cancelled



Legally it can be cancelled of course and since we didn't signed any contracts yet, it's even a simple thing to do IF the new government would want it. But as I said, it would be the worst thing to do to take a decision based on pride reasons for indigenous developments, while the reality shows us how far behind our industry is.


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## he-man

sancho said:


> Actually it must be posted in the LCA thread, because the delays of the project are the cause for extending Mig 21s operations. More over, the GoI / MoD should show DRDO / ADA how many pilots have died in recent crashes because they didn't got their acts together in the LCA project!
> 
> 
> 
> Legally it can be cancelled of course and since we didn't signed any contracts yet, it's even a simple thing to do IF the new government would want it. But as I said, it would be the worst thing to do to take a decision based on pride reasons for indigenous developments, while the reality shows us how far behind our industry is.



i did not say wrt to legal provisions but in general.
it caanot be cancelled now

HAL sucks and blood of mig-21 crashes is on their hand


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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> Actually it must be posted in the LCA thread, because the delays of the project are the cause for extending Mig 21s operations. More over, the GoI / MoD should show DRDO / ADA how many pilots have died in recent crashes because they didn't got their acts together in the LCA project!


Well it's a mix of both really- the Rafale WILL BE replacing MIG-21 and 27 SQDs just like how some MIG-21 SQDs have converted fully over to MKIs now. So a mix between the LCA not getting up to speed by now and the Rafale procurement delays have led to the ridiculously high number of MIG-21s/27s still in service. It needs all 3 replacements (LCA, Rafale and MKI) to come on line faster for these fatal and needless accidents to stop once and for all.


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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> Well it's a mix of both really



You have to keep the aims in mind and that replacement is done by number and not necessarily by capability. The aim of LCA was to replace Mig 21s, which it couldn't and that made MRCA coming in as a short term solution. M-MRCA on the other hand, was not a simple fighter replacement anymore, but aimed on industrial improvement as well, which is even the core reason why we demanded Dassault to fulfill the RFP requirements in all accounts. MKI was meant to replace Mig 23s and 27s in numbers, but was forced to replace Mig 21 squads partially too, to keep air defence capable, that's why M-MRCA might replace some Mig 27s squads as well, especially at the north eastern regions.
So the only one that actually had only the aim of replacing the Mig 21s was LCA, while the others had more strategic aims as well, be it operational or industrial. That's also why it would be wrong by BJP to take any decison without propper understanding which offer is the best for India and the industrial side. Just taking a fast decision "only" because of this crash, is not useful for the overall aim of the competition and would make all the effort spent on the competition useless. Just like cancelling it for indigenous pride reasons and hope on LCA / AMCA would be a waste and completelly unrealistic too. 
No matter which government and no matter what fighter, at the end the best package of advantages must be selected!


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## Storm Force

I see Rafale signed eventually late 2014 as Modi Govt settles in and the Rupee grows stronger and growth rates pick up to over 5.5% -6% of GDP.


TRANSFORMATION OF IAF will be slow & painfully.

First rafale sqd arrives 2016 = 18 planes
First indengious Rafale sqd arrives in 2018 = 36 planes
50 Rafales by 2020.

LCA TEJAS mk1 slow and tortourous

40 LCA MK1 by 2018 only
First LCA MK2 sqn by 2020. = 20 planes

In short by 2020

272 su30mki (including 40 super sukhoi)
60 Tejas mk1/2
50 Rafale F3
50 Mirage 2000-5
60 Mig29 smt
72 Jaguar Darin 1/2. 

I make that 30 combat sqds


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## sancho

Storm Force said:


> First rafale sqd arrives 2016 = 18 planes



Not possible, only 7 fighters can be diverted to export customers by 2016, another 11 in 2017, so the first squadron can only be delivered by the end of 2017 early 2018 unless France diverts more of their F3+ that will be delivered before 2016.


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## cloud_9

*Service chiefs brief Arun Jaitley on defence preparedness*​


> Sources also claimed that Jaitley was informed how army has not bought artillery guns since 1987 after the Bofors debacle and how shortage of nearly 6 lakh hand grenades and obsolete transport helicopters is
> affecting preparedness.
> 
> Indian Air Force is down to 33 squadrons of fighter jets against the required strength of 39 squadrons. Efforts to procure 126 medium combat jets has not been completed after seven years of efforts. And
> the navy too is short of conventional submarines as the fleets of diesel-powered submarines is down to a single digit and projects to develop underwater capability are lagging behind of schedule.​



Service chiefs brief Arun Jaitley on defence preparedness | Latest News & Updates at Daily News & Analysis


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## Last Samuri

We really need to take this subject more seriously. A nation our size is being 


out manourved by Pakistan with more falcons and indengious thunders.

We are scraping around with migs.


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## kaykay

We have roughly 10 Mig-21 sqds and by 2020 they can be replaced completely with 4-5 MKI sqds+ 2 Tejas sqds+ 3 Rafale sqds.
Though I agree that Mig-27s will fly till 2024-25 as we have no option to which we can replace them earlier.


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## NKVD

123Com said:


> Will ever IAF going to buy the 200 Rafaels directly? along with Scorpions directly from France???


MMrca contract terms already decided Problems are with Funds Quota which is over for this Accounting year.


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## NirmalKrish

kaykay said:


> We have roughly 10 Mig-21 sqds and by 2020 they can be replaced completely with 4-5 MKI sqds+ 2 Tejas sqds+ 3 Rafale sqds.
> Though I agree that Mig-27s will fly till 2024-25 as we have no option to which we can replace them earlier.



Question is how many pilots of ours do we want to see dead before that happens. come on, our government needs to get its priorities right it should be not too hard to set things in motion.


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## kaykay

NirmalKrish said:


> Question is how many pilots of ours do we want to see dead before that happens. come on, we our government gets our priorities right it should be not too hard to set things in motion.


Thats the sad truth. At best we can hope that new BJP govt will show concerns about existing deals and fast trak existing projects the way Atal Ji did in past with Tejas program and ATV project.


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## Abingdonboy

kaykay said:


> We have roughly 10 Mig-21 sqds and by 2020 they can be replaced completely with 4-5 MKI sqds+ 2 Tejas sqds+ 3 Rafale sqds.
> Though I agree that Mig-27s will fly till 2024-25 as we have no option to which we can replace them earlier.


Bro, the IAF has already said they plan on all MiG 21s and 27s out of service by 2019 beginning in 2017. The MiG-27s weren't even extensive upgrades and weren't re-engined for this very reason (IAF wants them gone).


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## NKVD

Abingdonboy said:


> Bro, the IAF has already said they plan on all MiG 21s and 27s out of service by 2019 beginning in 2017. The MiG-27s weren't even extensive upgrades and weren't re-engined for this very reason (IAF wants them gone).


@Abingdonboy why don't we buying more Mirage-2000 fill the gap we are facing. At-least it will increase some timeline to fill the gap


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## kaykay

Abingdonboy said:


> Bro, the IAF has already said they plan on all MiG 21s and 27s out of service by 2019 beginning in 2017. The MiG-27s weren't even extensive upgrades and weren't re-engined for this very reason (IAF wants them gone).


Okay. That means Bisons will serve us beyond 2020.
We have roughly 280 Migs(21s and 27s) in total to be replaced and by 2020 we can only deliver ~160 new aircrafts (70 mkis+40 tejas+50 Rafale).


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## Abingdonboy

kaykay said:


> Okay. That means Bisons will serve us beyond 2020.
> We have roughly 280 Migs(21s and 27s) in total to be replaced and by 2020 we can only deliver ~160 new aircrafts (70 mkis+40 tejas+50 Rafale).


The Bisons will stick around until around 2022/3.



NKVD said:


> @Abingdonboy why don't we buying more Mirage-2000 fill the gap we are facing. At-least it will increase some timeline to fill the gap


The IAF is not interested in a) buying second hand a/c with limited life left in them in large quantities. there was news that the IAF might buy 2-3 second hand twin seat M2Ks to replace the ones lost in crashes a couple of years back) b) adding yet ANOTHER type to be inducted in the next 5 or so years (MKI, LCA, Rafale will all be being in different stages of induction in the next 24 months with the FGFA on top of that by 2020 or so). Yes the IAF is familiar with the M2K but that is not reason enough to go for some second hand Mirages.


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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> The IAF is not interested in a) buying second hand a/c with limited life left in them in large quantities. there was news that the IAF might buy 2-3 second hand twin seat M2Ks to replace the ones lost in crashes a couple of years back) b) adding yet ANOTHER type to be inducted in the next 5 or so years (MKI, LCA, Rafale will all be being in different stages of induction in the next 24 months with the FGFA on top of that by 2020 or so). Yes the IAF is familiar with the M2K but that is not reason enough to go for some second hand Mirages.



That's not correct, they were interested in buying the Qatari Mirage 2000-5s earlier, but they asked for too high costs, it needs to be seen if we make another try when they go for a new fighter.


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## NKVD

sancho said:


> That's not correct, they were interested in buying the Qatari Mirage 2000-5s earlier, but they asked for too high costs, it needs to be seen if we make another try when they go for a new fighter.


high cost is not more than Lives of Are brave Officers who are Flying Coffins and Put there Life on Stake Every day


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## cloud_9

NKVD said:


> MMrca contract terms already decided Problems are with Funds Quota which is over for* this Accounting year*.


You mean 14-15


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## NKVD

cloud_9 said:


> You mean 14-15


 No 13-14 the Accounting year End on 31 March 2014 this year. Next Accounting year will be start from there On


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## sancho

In 2011, the Eurofighter consortium published the roadmap for future capabilities and I made the following post, comparing their roadmap, with the capabilities of the Rafale F3+ and the MMRCA requirements, but it's time to take a new look at it and at what has changed in the meantime: 







For the Rafale, the changes to the F3R standard clearly went to be a disadvantage for India, Meteor integration or the development of an advanced targeting pod were delayed further back, long range weapons that were suppose to be / could be added like the AASM 1000 or the AASM 125 are still not ordered or funded for integration. The Brimstone ATGM was requested, but too high integration costs removed it from the list as well and the IRST that was available back then, is now only an option, just like the HMS remains to be an option.
The result is, that the Rafale F3+ got worse in 5 categories, while improving only in 1 (SATCOM)! 

At the same time the EF, finished it's phase 1 enhancements, is integrating Meteor and cruise missiles, will start Brimstone integration by next year, while AESA, CFTs and SPEAR 3 missiles are under development, but not funded yet.

With the MMRCA timeline slipped and a first delivery is likely only by 2018, these older standards doesn't fit anymore and MoD / IAF have to check what the fighters can provide by the new timeline:






Rafale remains in the lead, but only to a smaller margin (only AASM 250 as a stand off weapon and that only if the production remains, IRST, HMS and CFT optional only with own funding) compared the to difference during the evaluations, while the EF can catch up or even surpass Rafale in certain areas (AESA can be available by then for export customers, CM capability for short ranges, better CAS, IRST and HMS available).


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## cloud_9

NKVD said:


> No 13-14 the Accounting year End on 31 March 2014 this year. Next Accounting year will be start from there On


But now it nearly June 2014 and they have money now.

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## kaykay

cloud_9 said:


> But now it nearly June 2014 and they have money now.


Govt is hardly 3 days old so have patience mate. Today Defence Minister took a look at these issues by the way.


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## sancho

cloud_9 said:


> But now it nearly June 2014 and they have money now.



It's not a money issue, but the delayes of fulfilling the industrial parts of the competition that delayed the selection. Dassault took too long for the negotiations and contract signings with Indian industrial partners, let alone the delays the workshare / responsibility negotiations took.
The new DM has to see if these parts of the requirements are fulfilled now and most likely will take a look at the life cycle cost issues that they criticized earlier too. That's why the new fiscal year, doesn't mean they would take a decision for Rafale right now, but within this year.


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## cloud_9

sancho said:


> It's not a money issue, but the delayes of fulfilling the industrial parts of the competition that delayed the selection. Dassault took too long for the negotiations and contract signings with Indian industrial partners, let alone the delays the workshare / responsibility negotiations took.
> The new DM has to see if these parts of the requirements are fulfilled now and most likely will take a look at the life cycle cost issues that they criticized earlier too. That's why the new fiscal year, doesn't mean they would take a decision for Rafale right now, but within this year.


All these reports were probably or should have been prepared during the previous government's tenure as they have plenty of time to work on it.


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## sancho

cloud_9 said:


> All these reports were probably or should have been prepared during the previous government's tenure as they have plenty of time to work on it.



They were, but as said, they have nothing to do with the government, rather than Dassault and their industrial partners in first place.


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## atlssa

*French airforce contingent arrives in India for 'Garuda-5' *
Last Updated: Sunday, June 01, 2014, 00:55





Jodhpur: Four French Rafale fighter aircraft and a contingent of about 70 French airforce personnel on Saturday landed at Jodhpur airbase to participate in the 10-day long joint air exercise "Garuda-5".

The air exercise, expected to be attended by Defence Minister Arun Jaitley, will kick start at the Jodhpur airbase on June 2.

The two air forces would be engaged in various missions ranging from close combat engagement of large forces, slow mover protection, and protecting and engaging high-value aerial assets in the exercise at the strategic airbase near Indo-Pak border.

The air exercise will include four Rafale multirole fighter aircraft and one air refueler that will participate with IAF's multirole Su-30MKI, four MiG-27 and four MiG-21 (BISON) aircraft. The chiefs of both air forces will be flying the Rafale and Su-30 MKI.

The objective of the exercise is to acquaint the fighter pilots of the two countries with the fighter tactics of each other, air to air refuelling, cross-servicing of a common type between ground crews and understanding basic concepts of each countries fighter operations, defence sources said.

French airforce contingent arrives in India for `Garuda-5`

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## sancho

EF T3A, not the best, but is it good enough for a fast replacement of Migs in 2015/16?






(CAS with Paveway IV and METEOR)





(METEOR)






(Paveway IV)





(CAS with GBU 16 and Litening LDP)






(Cruise missile strike with Storm Shadow, with limited range of the fighter though)

Upgrades in time for the new delivery timeframe for 2018?




(Captor E AESA radar)





(CAS with Brimstone ATGM and METEOR)


Advantages:

- faster replacement of the Migs
- better flight performance
- better A2A load configs
- better CAS load configs by 2018
- (possibly) better radar by 2018
- IRST, HMS and Litening
- more industrial benefits


Disadvantages:

- costs
- AESA only under developments
- limited heavy and deep strike capabilities until CFTs are available


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## atlssa

sancho said:


> EF T3A, not the best, but is it good enough for a fast replacement of Migs in 2015/16?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (CAS with Paveway IV and METEOR)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (METEOR)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Paveway IV)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (CAS with GBU 16 and Litening LDP)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Cruise missile strike with Storm Shadow, with limited range of the fighter though)
> 
> Upgrades in time for the new delivery timeframe for 2018?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Captor E AESA radar)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (CAS with Brimstone ATGM and METEOR)
> 
> 
> Advantages:
> 
> - faster replacement of the Migs
> - better flight performance
> - better A2A load configs
> - better CAS load configs by 2018
> - (possibly) better radar by 2018
> - IRST, HMS and Litening
> - more industrial benefits
> 
> 
> Disadvantages:
> 
> - costs
> - AESA only under developments
> - limited heavy and deep strike capabilities until CFTs are available





Since we are talking about possibilities...

*Defence Committee*
*Written evidence from C J A Cope, Political Editor, Warship World Magazine*

Towards the end of June, the Defence Secretary, Dr Liam Fox, gave a speech to the Royal United Services Institute. In that speech, he made a number of claims which, on examination, do not appear to be accurate. This is what he said:

“Let me take head-on the persistent claim that the nature of our operations in Libya, and the cost of them, would be different had we an aircraft carrier and the Harrier in service.”

“The truth is that we still would have based RAF Tornadoes and Typhoons in Italy for the air-to-air role and to carry the precision weaponry such as Stormshadow or Brimstone that Harrier cannot carry.”

“So it would not have been cheaper—in fact, it would have been much more expensive.”

*Costs*
According to a parliamentary reply by Peter Luff dated 14 September 2010, *the cost per flight hour of operating* the Tornado GR4 was £35,000, the Harrier GR9 £37,000 and the *Typhoon FGR4 £70,000*.

Nevertheless, as to why the GR9 should cost more to operate per flight hour than the Tornado has not been explained and should be questioned. These figures must be independently verified by the National Audit Office.

Elsewhere in his speech, Dr Fox said that Labour had already reduced the Harrier fleet in 2009, leaving the remaining aircraft being unable to sustain operations in Afghanistan, let alone undertake contingencies such as Libya. He also said that only Tornado had the capacity to do both.

Nevertheless, in a parliamentary reply dating from this spring, the MoD stated that the number of Harrier GR9s withdrawn in December 2010 was 62. This is far in excess of the numbers of Tornadoes and Typhoons operated by the RAF either in Afghanistan or Libya. 40 of these Harriers were fully fitted for and capable of frontline combat or ground support operations. In spite of the Tornado fleet numbering 107 aircraft, only 28 were fully fitted for and capable of conducting the Afghanistan close air support task. In other words, there was much more capacity within the Harrier GR9 fleet to support Afghanistan and Libyan operations. The Tornado Force Elements at Readiness (FE@R) was therefore significantly less than that of the Harrier.

A further parliamentary reply indicated that savings from the withdrawal from service of Ark Royal in December 2010 are estimated at £105 million between 2011–12 and 2014–15. Prior to SDSR, the MoD had disclosed that Ark Royal would be taken out of service in the third quarter of 2014.

Accordingly, the average annual savings following the withdrawal from service of Ark Royal during that three-year period are £35 million. That equates with the savings from the withdrawal from service of Illustrious which have also been estimated by the MoD at £35 million per annum.

It must follow, therefore, that to have maintained Ark Royal in service throughout 2011, enabling the ship to operate in the Mediterranean during Operation Ellamy would have cost the MoD about £35 million.

Dr Fox appears to be suggesting that it is cheaper to be operating RAF Tornadoes and Typhoons from Gioia del Colle in Italy than GR9s operating from Ark Royal in the Mediterranean.

It does not take a mathematical genius to realise that operating GR9s from a carrier lying just outside Libyan territorial waters has simply got to be substantially cheaper than flying Tornadoes and Typhoons from their base in Italy the 600 or so nautical miles to Libya and then back again, with VC10/ Tristar refuelling en route—not to mention the massive logistical support train by air and overland.

It is high time that the MoD disclosed the actual cost of basing Tornadoes and Typhoons in Italy, particularly following the report in the Sunday Times in June that the RAF was spending an estimated £40,000 a night for pilots and support staff to stay at 4* hotels in southern Italy.

There have been reports that land-based operations in Libya over a six months period are likely to be costing £900 million, compared with £150 million (just 17%) for sea-based operations. Moreover, if one includes infrastructure costs, the RAF figure could rise to £1.35 billion.

In any event, independent verification is essential and again I would urge you to invite the NAO to conduct an inquiry.

Launched from a carrier, a GR9 can be on task delivering weapons within 30 minutes of, for example, a call for urgent support from ground forces. In contrast, a Tornado/Typhoon operating from Gioia del Colle has a transit time of 1.5 hours to reach its target and, of course, requires air-to-air refuelling. In addition, the RAF insists on having 24 hours’ notice of close air support missions in order to support ground forces.

And finally, on the cost of operating aircraft, it has been disclosed that the Army Apache (of which four have been deployed with Ocean) are costing some £15,000 an hour—less than half that of Tornado.

*Weaponry*
*1. ALARM (air-to-ground missile)*
Is used to take out hostile radar systems. Can be operated by Tornado, but not by the GR9. However, not deployed in Libya/Afghanistan.

*2. AMRAAM/ASRAAM/AIM9 Sidewinder (air-to-air missiles)*
AMRAAM is a BVR (Beyond Visual Range) missile and carried by Typhoon. ASRAAM can be carried by some, but not all, Tornado aircraft. The GR9 is fully configured/fitted for the carriage and use of the well-proven Sidewinder missile. Accordingly, all three aircraft types have an air-to-air capability. However, the Tornado is notoriously deficient when conducting air combat within visual range. In contrast, the Harrier is highly agile and has a proven track record in aerial combat. Nevertheless, it has to be conceded that, without radar or a BVR system, the GR9 simply cannot fulfil an area interceptor role. But the GR9 armed with the latest Sidewinder missile and controlled in-flight by carrier-borne radar controllers/ direction officers, could defend itself in close combat against any third world fighter threat. I need hardly remind you of the astonishing success rate of the Sea Harrier during the Falklands War, when operating within visual range and with superior pilot expertise. And, of course, with the new Type-45 destroyers equipped with Aster missiles and the Sampson radar system, hostile aircraft BVR would be eliminated using Sea Viper. The Aster 30 has a range of 50 miles.

*3. Paveway*
There are three separate marks in service, namely Mark II (simple laser-guided bomb), Mark III (GPS precision guided “bunker-busting” 2000lb bomb), Mark IV (GPS precision guided bomb).

Tornado GR4 and Harrier GR9 have the capability to deliver all three variants accurately. Typhoon can only deliver the Mk II variant and then only when it has independent targeted help.

*4. Brimstone/Hellfire*
Both are anti-tank missiles. Whereas the RAF aircraft can deploy Brimstone, the GR9 cannot. However, Hellfire is as good as Brimstone (and cheaper) and is carried by Apache. Nevertheless, Apache can deliver Hellfire much more responsively and from shorter range, making it a better and much more cost-effective operational weapons system.

*5. Stormshadow/Tomahawk (TLAM)*
Whereas the RAF aircraft can carry Stormshadow, the GR9 cannot. Furthermore, the RAF has no Tomahawk capability.

Stormshadow has a history of misfires, not guiding to target and warhead failures on hitting a target. The RAF has substantial stocks of Stormshadow missiles (900 were ordered). Each cost $1.3 million, having a range of 400 miles.

On the other hand, Tomahawk, operated from Britain’s modified T-boats, together with the new Astute class SSN, has a range of up to 1,500 miles, can be re-programmed in flight (unlike Stormshadow) and is extremely reliable with a high probability of kill (unlike Stormshadow). Furthermore, Tomahawk is less than half the price of Stormshadow.

The only advantage of Stormshadow over Tomahawk is that it has a warhead specifically designed to penetrate and destroy hardened targets, which Tomahawk cannot do. Nevertheless, an operational commander would undoubtedly be using the Mark III Paveway with the Tornado or GR9, instead of calling up a Tomahawk cruise missile if needing to destroy a hardened target.

We know that on her first deployment, HMS Triumph (SSN) fired six Tomahawk cruise missiles. The number fired on the second deployment has yet to be disclosed (thought to be eight). Equally, the Navy has limited stocks of Tomahawk missiles. During the early stages of the campaign, the US Navy deployed USS Florida, an SSGN, which fired some 90 Tomahawk cruise missiles against Libyan targets. There was, of course, no guarantee that the USN would participate in Operation Ellamy. Please also note that no European navy apart from the RN can fire cruise missiles.

The new Astute class can carry up to 38 weapons and would be perfectly capable of deploying 24 Tomahawk cruise missiles in any deployment.

An SSN has strategic mobility whereas airfields are static and vulnerable.

*6. Other systems*
The GR9 can also operate Maverick, which is a close-air-support anti-tank weapon, having an excellent track record and the CRV7 rocket, a close-air-support weapon which also has a good track record. Neither is carried by Tornado.

In addition to being equipped with the Hellfire missile, the Apache helicopter has a highly accurate cannon with 500 rounds available (far more effective and flexible than the Tornado cannon which carries half the number of rounds).

*Military Conclusion*
Four Astute-class SSNs armed with Tomahawk would be capable of eliminating no less than 96 targets, thereby avoiding any need to use Tornado/Typhoons armed with Stormshadow missiles. One Astute is in service. The next three boats should be in service by 2016. Today, we have four TLAM-equipped T-boats, albeit with a reduced payload.

HMS Ocean, equipped with Apache helicopters, with support from Sea King AEW helicopters, has been deployed. Apache with Hellfire missiles and cannon is being utilised for anti-tank/anti-armour purposes. A full complement of 20 Apaches is feasible, bearing in mind that over 60 were delivered to the Army Air Corps.

In addition, the Navy could have been operating HMS Ark Royal equipped with GR9s and supported by Sea King AEWs. GR9s equipped with Sidewinder missiles would have been used in air-to-air combat if the Libyan air force had managed to operate.

The GR9 equipped with Paveway could have carried out bunker-busting operations and close-air-support (this is what it was designed to do) using also the Maverick close-air-support anti-tank weapon, together with the CRV7 rocket.

This naval combination would have been more effective and considerably cheaper than involving RAF Tornadoes and Typhoons and highly expensive air-to-air refuelling and logistics backup.

During Ellamy, the RAF has managed only one Tornado mission every two days, compared with the USMC flying two missions per Harrier every day.

In any event, the French aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle (CDG) has achieved no less than 40% of daily strike missions in Libya, compared with NATO aircraft and RN/USN SSNs/SSGNs making up the remaining 60%.

SDSR made it clear that in future, we would be increasingly dependent upon allies. Consider, therefore, the following situation in relation to Operation Ellamy:

1.USN—Carriers not involved.

2.French Navy—CDG returned to Toulon with a refit due at year-end.

3.Spanish Navy—Carrier not involved.

4.Italian Navy—Carrier withdrawn for economic reasons. Government contemplating withdrawal of air base facilities, with profound implications for future RAF operations.

5.RN—No fixed-wing carriers in service.

*Political Conclusion*
Contrary to what Dr Fox told the RUSI:

(a)The nature of our Libyan operations would have been greatly improved using a carrier/Harrier combination, together with Apache helicopters and TLAM-equipped SSNs.

(b)We could have dispensed with all land-based air operations from Italy.

(c)There is an effective naval alternative to Brimstone/Stormshadow.

(d)The Navy could have carried out the UK’s entire contribution to Operation Ellamy at a fraction of the cost incurred by the RAF.

_19 July 2011_

House of Commons - Defence Committee: Written evidence from C J A Cope, Political Editor, Warship World Magazine


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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> Disadvantages:
> - costs
> - AESA only under developments
> - limited heavy and deep strike capabilities until CFTs are available


You should the fact you are dealing with a consortium and not a single entity with all the added political complications with brings and as a result the lack of an integrated and fully funded future road map with each partner nation having different priorities. In my opinion the EFT consortium approach as been a failure, yes mostly due to Euro nations across the board cutting back on their respective defence budgets but the fact is upgrades and developments that should have been on the Typhoon years ago are still under consideration/development. Additionally in every single head to head competition the EFT and Rafale have taken part in the Rafale has come out ahead, the fact it hasn't secured any export orders as of yet is a separate issue.

I'm pretty confident the Rafale's production line will outlast the EFT's.


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## sancho

atlssa said:


> Since we are talking about possibilities...



The quoted figure is older and should have been gone done a bit, but as I said, the costs will be the main problem. I am only showing that it is still an option and currently even the fastest to replace the Migs.



Abingdonboy said:


> You should the fact you are dealing with a consortium and not a single entity with all the added political complications with brings and as a result the lack of an integrated and fully funded future road map with each partner nation having different priorities.



The political complications are an assumption, which can be true, but can't be verified and the only reason why I compare the EF now again, is the fact that the difference in funded capabilies has gone down today (Paveway IV, METEOR and Storm Shadow done, AESA and CFTs lacking to fulfill the requirements, while for Rafale it would be HMS, IRST and Litening).



Abingdonboy said:


> In my opinion the EFT consortium approach as been a failure,



No doubt about that, the UK should had lead the offer, they shouldn't had offered only upgrades with their advantage in mind, but should had offered what India needs (TVC as an option if we fund it vs joint engine development for example). However, that was back in 2012 with delivery planned in 2015, now we have 2014, the EF has got considerable upgrades and has a much more realistic upgrade roadmap prospect till 2018, the current possible delivery date.[/quote]


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## halloweene

Upgrades are just... On the way. Plane capabilities in term of deep strike are still way below Rafale's despite CFT's (which are also late as compared to Rafale...). Paveway 4 is a gliding bomb, with all the advantages (cost) but also limitations (off boresight, low level release) Meteor not coming before Rafale's, still no radar guided low level automatic flying mode etc. etc.

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## atlssa

sancho said:


> Mirage 2000 - € 8672 ($11896)
> Rafale B/C - € 9484 ($13010)
> Should be very interesting for IAF to compare these figures.





sancho said:


> The quoted figure is older and should have been gone done a bit, but as I said, the costs will be the main problem. I am only showing that it is still an option and currently even the fastest to replace the Migs.



I know is older, but it is a valid benchmark. Not to long ago you also gave us some numbers concerning the Rafale figures in 2012.

I believe all these figures are important and have to be considered.


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## nomi007



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## sancho

halloweene said:


> Upgrades are just... On the way. Plane capabilities in term of deep strike are still way below Rafale's despite CFT's (which are also late as compared to Rafale...)



3000l in CFTs + a centerline 1000l fuel tank are more than enough for deep strikes with 2 x Storm Shadows, especially at lower drag as compared Rafale with 2 x 2000l subsonic fuel tanks. CFT for EF is the game changer to make it fully multi role capable, the question is only when they will be available, from 2018 or 2020 onwards. 

Wrt PW IV, it's not only the cost that is an advantage, but also the fact that the EF is not only dependent on the heavy GBU 16s in CAS anymore, that it can strike several targets at a single pass now like Rafale does it. The main disadvantage is the low range, compared to Rafale with AASM of course, that will make the EF more vulnerable, but with Brimstone and SPEAR 3 on the line, the prospect in CAS and even SEAD looks clearly brighter for the EF, than for the Rafale.

METEOR is coming on EF clearly before it comes on Rafale, simply by the fact that any of the EF partners except of the UK, still use the old AIM 120 versions, which needs replacements soon, just like it is the case for Gripen C/Ds in Swedish forces. France opted for METEOR so late, because MICA has enough time left to be replaced.


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## sancho

atlssa said:


> I know is older, but it is a valid benchmark. Not to long ago you also gave us some numbers concerning the Rafale figures in 2012.
> 
> I believe all these figures are important and have to be considered.



No doubt, but they must be considered as a part of the offered package and then it needs to be seen where the priorities are and who offers more advantage. If fast replacement of Migs is given higher importance by the BJP, the EF is the better choice and if they think that justifies the higher costs, they can select it. If they put the higher priority on industrial advantages and possible creation of jobs in India, the EF might be the better choice too, which also could justify higher costs.
So unless we know if the BJP will continue with the earlier RFP priorities, or if they want to add own priorities, we can't say what happen. Remember what happend in the FX2 competition when the new government came in and the priorities for cost / cost-effectiveness was changed with a much higher importance than in the initial rules? That changed the competition mainly away from the Rafale and towards the F18SH and the Gripen E. At the end that even countered the high risks of delays the Gripen offers and that the FAB had pointed out in their evalutions too. So one has to consider these changes of a new government, possible priority changes and of course the changes of delivery timeline and capabilties of the figthers, to get to the best package for India.

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## atlssa

sancho said:


> No doubt, but they must be considered as a part of the offered package and then it needs to be seen where the priorities are and who offers more advantage. If fast replacement of Migs is given higher importance by the BJP, the EF is the better choice and if they think that justifies the higher costs, they can select it. If they put the higher priority on industrial advantages and possible creation of jobs in India, the EF might be the better choice too, which also could justify higher costs.
> So unless we know if the BJP will continue with the earlier RFP priorities, or if they want to add own priorities, we can't say what happen. Remember what happend in the FX2 competition when the new government came in and the priorities for cost / cost-effectiveness was changed with a much higher importance than in the initial rules? That changed the competition mainly away from the Rafale and towards the F18SH and the Gripen E. At the end that even countered the high risks of delays the Gripen offers and that the FAB had pointed out in their evalutions too. So one has to consider these changes of a new government, possible priority changes and of course the changes of delivery timeline and capabilties of the figthers, to get to the best package for India.



You've provided a good point. Concerning our situation, not all Brazilians are convinced the Gripen is the better choice, nevertheless it is a government and air force decision.
For the records, I prefer the Rafale.


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## sancho

atlssa said:


> You've provided a good point. Concerning our situation, not all Brazilians are convinced the Gripen is the better choice, nevertheless it is a government and air force decision.
> For the records, I prefer the Rafale.



The EF "solution" that I present here only to show what options are available, is actually very similar to Brazil selecting Gripen E!
In both cases:

- the country would accept a less capable version as a fast to deliver stop gap solution
- the country would get fully developed versions of the fighters in later stages (actually even here the 2018 timeframe is the same now)
- the country would be a partner of the fighter, which gives credible access to techs and manufacturing capacities
- the importance would lie on industrial improvement for the future, rather than getting the best currently available fighter

The only difference would be, that you also chose the most cost-effective solution, while the EF would be the costlier once for us, which means the technical / industrial return must be good enough to justify the costs. IF that is the case, the EF solution could benefit India more.

And I generally prefer Rafale too!

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## sancho

> Rafales at Jodhpur #Garuda5 air exercise



Source: Livefist twitter

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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/473442065859084288
> 
> The 2 in the front look like F3s, the so no AESA, DDM NG, or other latest upgrades to showcase the IAF, not sure about the others.


hmmm- a water cannon salute by the IAF, very interesting. Like the IAF is welcoming its own fighters home. I certainly have never seen a water salute being given to F-16s, F-15s or EFTs who have come to train with the IAF.

Just an observation


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## sancho

Correction, added a higher resolution pic, the 2 in the front look like F3s, the latter seems to have DDM NG, the question now is, does it have AESA or not. Also interesting, all of them twin seaters and quiet unusual fuel tank configurations, with a supersonic fuel tank on the centerline and subsonic fuel tanks at the wings.


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## atlssa

sancho said:


> Correction, added a higher resolution pic, the 2 in the front look like F3s, the latter seems to have DDM NG, the question now is, does it have AESA or not. Also interesting, all of them twin seaters and quiet unusual fuel tank configurations, with a supersonic fuel tank on the centerline and subsonic fuel tanks at the wings.



They all look like the same, with no sensors. 
Lets compare.


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## sancho

atlssa said:


> They all look like the same, with no sensors.
> Lets compare.



What do you mean? Your pic is showing a Mirage 2000 and a Rafale


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## atlssa

sancho said:


> What do you mean? Your pic is showing a Mirage 2000 and a Rafale



Just compare the Rafale front view on both pics


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## sancho

atlssa said:


> Just compare the Rafale front view on both pics



The front is identical at any Rafale, but you can make out the different standards by checking the DDM sensors for example. The latest F3+ has the DDM NG in the EW pod on top of the tail fin, with the round spherical sensor, that's why the 3rd Rafale might be an F3+, while the 2 in the front are older versions


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## atlssa

sancho said:


> The front is identical at any Rafale, but you can make out the different standards by checking the DDM sensors for example. The latest F3+ has the DDM NG in the EW pod on top of the tail fin, with the round spherical sensor, that's why the 3rd Rafale might be an F3+, while the 2 in the front are older versions



I see!
Thank you!


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## cloud_9

*MMRCA deal: Rafale negotiations expected to be wrapped up in 3 months*​
NEW DELHI: India is closer to finally sealing the almost $20 billion MMRCA (medium multirole combat aircraft) project to acquire 126 French Rafale fighters, which IAF has identified as a top-priority for the Narendra Modi government. 

Defence ministry sources said the final commercial negotiations for the MMRCA project, which IAF considers "critical" to retain its air combat edge against Pakistan and maintain "dissuasive deterrence" against China, can now "be wrapped up in the next three months". 

In the backdrop of IAF making do with just 34 fighter squadrons, when at least 44 are required, Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha called on PM Modi on Monday, barely a few days after he briefed finance and defence minister Arun Jaitley. On Tuesday, the IAF chief will again make "a detailed presentation" to Jaitley on the operational preparedness and different modernization projects of his force. 

The worry is that the final negotiations with French aviation major Dassault for the MMRCA project have proceeded at a slow pace since Rafale was "down-selected" over its rivals in January 2012. 

Sources, however, said the work of three subcommittees dealing with technical maintenance (IAF will fly the fighters for 40 years), offsets (Dassault will have to plough back 50% of the contract value back into India) and transfer of technology (ToT) has now been completed. 

Under the MMRCA project, the first 18 jets will come in "fly-away condition", while Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd is to manufacture 108 fighters in India over six years. In fact, after months of wrangling, Dassault and HAL could finalize the work-share agreement only in February this year, under which the defence PSU will now have a 70% role. 

"With offsets, work-share, warranty, liquidity damages and other issues resolved, the CNC (contract negotiation committee) now has to settle the final costs before the draft contract can be readied for the government's final approval," said a source. 

If the MMRCA project is inked in the next few months, the first 18 jets will come to India from mid-2016 onwards. The jets built by HAL, in turn, are expected to begin rolling out from 2018 onwards. HAL will initially deliver six jets per year, which will go up to 20 per year later. 

When the MMRCA selection process was initiated by MoD in mid-2007, the overall project cost was pegged at Rs 42,000 crore or $10.4 billion for 126 fighters. But with inflation being factored in, it could zoom upwards of the $20 billion mark by the time it's completed.

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## IND151

MMRCA deal: Rafale negotiations expected to be wrapped up in 3 months | idrw.org


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## IND151

Livefist: Indian Rafale Deal Final By September. Any Breaths Held?


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## halloweene

> For the records, I prefer the Rafale.


As do an independant Brazilian test pilot i know.


> METEOR is coming on EF clearly before it comes on Rafale


No, sorry don't confuse integration of Meteor and F3-R software standard. First live shots with Meteor in Jan 2015 on Rafale.


> range, compared to Rafale with AASM of course, that will make the EF more vulnerable, but with Brimstone and SPEAR 3 on the line, the prospect in CAS and even SEAD looks clearly brighter for the EF, than for the Rafale.


Yes Brimstone is a strongpoint. BUT PIV is not only rangeless, it is also less versatile. Try to lauch 6 PIV in a single salvo on 6 different targets on a 180° area... Same for spear 3.. (funded btw?)

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## sancho

halloweene said:


> First live shots with Meteor in Jan 2015 on Rafale.



Just like the first live test of Brimstone on EF is planned for 2015, to be available in operational service in* 2018*, while the METEOR at Rafale integration is aimed at 2018 and the F3R upgrade.



halloweene said:


> Try to lauch 6 PIV in a single salvo on 6 different targets on a 180° area... Same for spear 3.. (funded btw?)



As already said, that is a specific capability of AASM that only offers advantages in SEAD, but PW IV is not meant for that role but for CAS, the same role where even French forces and Rafales use GBU 49s and not AASM. So it's pointless to show off a capability of AASM, that has nothing to do with the role. AASM in CAS, had mainly the advantage of attacking different targets at the same time in a single pass and that from stand off distances. The latter remains and advantage over PW IV or GBU 49, the earlier however is not anymore.


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## atlssa

*India to seal deal for Rafale jets within three months - paper*
NEW DELHI Tue Jun 3, 2014 5:55pm IST





A Rafale jet fighter is seen on the assembly line in the factory of French aircraft manufacturer 
Dassault Aviation in Merignac near Bordeaux, southwestern France, January 10, 2014. 
Credit: Reuters/Benoit Tessier/Files​(Reuters) - India expects to seal a close to $20 billion deal to buy 126 fighter jets from France's Dassault Aviation within three months, a newspaper reported on Tuesday, as part of a $100 billion defence modernisation plan.

Completion of the deal would mean the first 18 Rafale jets arriving from mid-2016, with manufacture of the remaining 108 beginning in India in 2018, the Times of India said, citing defence ministry sources.

New Delhi had picked the Rafale fighters for exclusive negotiations in January 2012, but a plan to finalise the deal by March this year was postponed after India's military exhausted its capital budget.

A defence ministry official said the new government had just moved into position and it was too early to talk about wrapping up the jet fighter negotiations.

*"The report is speculative, the defence minister has not applied his mind to the issue as yet. He is busy with budget meetings," the official said. *

*Dassault declined to comment. *

India, the world's biggest arms importer, is in the midst of a $100 billion defence modernisation programme to replace Soviet-era planes and tanks, and narrow the gap with China, with which it fought a war in 1962.

But the upgrade programme moved slowly under the last government, partly because of the then-defence minister's insistence on transparency and integrity in defence procurement, long dogged by allegations of kickbacks.

Newly-elected Prime Minister Narendra Modi is keen to boost domestic defence manufacturing and cut imports. Finance Minister Arun Jaitley, also in charge of defence, is studying proposals to allow more foreign direct investment in the sector.

Technical negotiations on the Rafale order were concluded in March and financial talks are under way. The company has said previously that it hopes to sign a deal by the end of the year.

India to seal deal for Rafale jets within three months - paper| Reuters

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## halloweene

What worries me is that three subcommitees were nominated and they may compete each other...


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## atlssa

*Prioritise defence buys: Arun*
OUR SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT
*New Delhi, June 4: *The defence ministry is drawing up a list of major acquisitions for the armed forces that should be contracted urgently.

Defence minister Arun Jaitley was understood to have asked secretaries to prioritise acquisitions based on urgency of requirement and processing of the cases.

Topping the list of pending acquisitions is the fighter aircraft for the Indian Air Force. The IAF selected the Rafale fighter jet over two years ago. The cost of the acquisition of 126 Rafales could now top an estimated $20 billion. The IAF has also projected a need for six additional C-17 Globemaster III strategic airlifters.

For the army, the defence establishment has been aware of the need for heavy artillery guns. The artillery modernisation plan is estimated to cost about $3.8 billion.

The army’s biggest force-accretion was set rolling last year with the CCS approving the creation of a Mountain Strike Corps. To be headquartered in Bengal’s Panagarh, the corps will be equipped for the China frontier.

A crucial element in its arsenal will be the ultra-light howitzer, a Bae Systems made M777. The proposal to buy 145 of these guns has been in the works for over five years.

The army and the air force have also asked for light utility helicopters that can operate in the Siachen Glacier area. The Army Aviation Corps has asked for 197 such helicopters.

The IAF has also selected Boeing’s Chinook CH-47F helicopter for its heavy rotorcraft need and the Apache Longbow AH-64D for its attack helicopter requirement. There has been tardiness in procuring 16 multi-role helicopters for the navy costing nearly $6 billion.

Prioritise defence buys: Arun

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## cloud_9

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/474507864304660483

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## ziaulislam

So we are looking nearly 100 billion dollars buying in next 5-10 years


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## Abingdonboy

ziaulislam said:


> So we are looking nearly 100 billion dollars buying in next 5-10 years


By 2022 the Indian Mil will have spent $100 BN on capital acquisitions from 2012. The IAF by 2025-7 will have spent $150BN by itself.

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## Agent_47

Abingdonboy said:


> By 2022 the Indian Mil will have spent $100 BN on capital acquisitions from 2012. The IAF by 2025-7 will have spent $150BN by itself.


seriously bro? 
total defence budget today is *36 billion *$ ,lets us say we have a average yearly increase by 10% (unlikely).
In that rate by 2022 our Total budget will be *77.17 billion* $ and capital acquisitions cost may be one third of that.
So, *27.7 billion* $.
Too much daydreaming is bad for health bro.


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## Agent_47

@sancho Are we buying F3R Version ?


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## Abingdonboy

Agent_47 said:


> seriously bro?
> total defence budget today is *36 billion *$ ,lets us say we have a average yearly increase by 10% (unlikely).
> In that rate by 2022 our Total budget will be *77.17 billion* $ and capital acquisitions cost may be one third of that.
> So, *27.7 billion* $.
> Too much daydreaming is bad for health bro.


 Its NOT the annual captial expenditure budgets I am refereing too but the cumlitive defence spending on acqusitons.Everything I have said is based on fact, no daydreaming about it- $100BN spent in TOTAL on new equipment by 2022 by all 3 forces and $150BN by 2025-7 by the IAF from 2012:

IAF to procure equipment worth $150 billion | India's first NewsPortal on Projects



Agent_47 said:


> @sancho Are we buying F3R Version ?


 IAF's version will be tailormade for the IAF along the lines of a F3+ version.

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## Agent_47

Abingdonboy said:


> Its NOT the annual captial expenditure budgets I am refereing too but the cumlitive defence spending on acqusitons.Everything I have said is based on fact, no daydreaming about it- $100BN spent in TOTAL on new equipment by 2022 by all 3 forces and $150BN by 2025-7 by the IAF from 2012:
> 
> IAF to procure equipment worth $150 billion | India's first NewsPortal on Projects


Sorry, i read it wrong.


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## sancho

Agent_47 said:


> Are we buying F3R Version ?



No and yes. The version proposed in the MMRCA was the F3+ and if we fix the deal before Qatar, the first squadron might still come in that technical standard, while the licence production might include F3R as the base standard, because of the delays of the competition now. 
However, most of the F3R upgrade is not important for India and mainly aimed on the needs of French forces and interoperability with NATO forces. Only METEOR, upgraded A2G fire control and SPECTRA capabilities would be interesting. 
It also will be interesting to see when the customization for India (IRST, HMS, most likely the Litening LDP and as @halloweene said, the SATCOM link) will be ready and implemented. I somehow doubt, that all of that could still be ready for the first squadron, which then might be added to the F3R standard too. That's exactly why I say that the MoD / DM actually must re-evaluate at least the changes of both fighters, based on the new delivery timeline, to get the best package at the best price for India.

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## halloweene

There are also some improvements on Radar. But anyway F3R is mostly a software standard (and retrofittable). India should get a "F3I" standard, with specific upgrades etc.

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## sancho

halloweene said:


> There are also some improvements on Radar. But anyway F3R is mostly a software standard (and retrofittable). India should get a "F3I" standard, with specific upgrades etc.



More interesting would had been an F3 FI (France India)!


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## Agent_47

These beauties just landed: formation flights of French Air Force Rafales with an IAF MiG-27 and Su-30 MKI over Rajasthan for #Garuda5. More soon.
Livefist: Feast Your Eyes On This: Here's #Garuda5 Mid-air

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## halloweene

sancho said:


> More interesting would had been an F3 FI (France India)!


It will be for F4


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## atlssa

Agent_47 said:


> These beauties just landed: formation flights of French Air Force Rafales with an IAF MiG-27 and Su-30 MKI over Rajasthan for #Garuda5. More soon.
> Livefist: Feast Your Eyes On This: Here's #Garuda5 Mid-air



It is always a pleasure to see these birds flying together.


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## Lord Of Gondor

The MiG-21 looks absolutely terrific in the first photograph!
Never thought I'd say this but I would miss this aircraft in the coming years..


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## sancho

halloweene said:


> It will be for F4



Wishful thinking mate, especially since the possibilities are now available and not in the future. The F4 will already have PDL NG in France, Litening in India, MICA NG and Maitri will be developed seperately, IAF fighters will include more Israeli weapons and less French once...
The biggest problem is, there is no will from the French side that see's this potential and actually want to use it for the advantage for the Rafale and for French forces.

Btw, Olybrius from the MP forum says that all Rafales in the exercise are F3s, which is not only a disappointment for the Indian side, but also pretty silly from the French side! When you want to impress the IAF and get the new government to sign the contract faster, you need to use this exercise to show off all capabilities that the IAF could get, but now neither AESA, nor DDM NG can be showcased.


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## cloud_9

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/475187023255334912

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## halloweene

sancho said:


> Wishful thinking mate, especially since the possibilities are now available and not in the future. The F4 will already have PDL NG in France, Litening in India, MICA NG and Maitri will be developed seperately, IAF fighters will include more Israeli weapons and less French once...
> The biggest problem is, there is no will from the French side that see's this potential and actually want to use it for the advantage for the Rafale and for French forces.
> 
> Btw, Olybrius from the MP forum says that all Rafales in the exercise are F3s, which is not only a disappointment for the Indian side, but also pretty silly from the French side! When you want to impress the IAF and get the new government to sign the contract faster, you need to use this exercise to show off all capabilities that the IAF could get, but now neither AESA, nor DDM NG can be showcased.


Well we are in war in mali and CAR atm, and new stuff is being tested for doctrinas. Not so may planes available...

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## sancho

halloweene said:


> Well we are in war in mali and CAR atm, and new stuff is being tested for doctrinas. Not so may planes available...



Come on mate, that has nothing to do with it, AASM 125 was tested although there is no interest of French forces, just like the opening of the external wingstation has more to do with UAE's requirements. So there are developments going on independently and could go on with India too, especially if joint funding would make things far easier.
I simply don't understand that Dassault is on the one side so unconcerned about the export potential of the Rafale, by ignoring the benefits India would bring s a partner, at least for certain tech developments, not to mention the benefits for French forces! Instead they waste time and re-sources to convince the UAE and Brazil, although the MMRCA deal is bigger than both together.



> *Jaitley caught in Defence-Finance crossfire*
> 
> ...
> Union Finance Minister Arun Jaitley is facing calls from the three service chiefs to increase the defence budget to close to two per cent of the Gross Domestic Product (GDP), highly placed government sources have told _The Hindu_.
> 
> The calls come even as Mr. Jaitley, who also serves as Defence Minister, *has been hearing from bureaucrats at the Finance Ministry that the money simply cannot be found for the increase without politically controversial subsidy cuts*...
> 
> ...Finance Ministry officials say restructuring subsidies could make funds available, but add that such measures are unlikely to be in place before the Budget is presented in July. Industry spokespersons, though, have suggested that insolvent public sector units can be stripped to finance defence acquisitions...



Jaitley caught in Defence-Finance crossfire - The Hindu


So much for Jaitley as a joint minister will make things faster and easier. Talk is simple when you are in the opposition, but now he see's the problems that he must deal with!


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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> Jaitley caught in Defence-Finance crossfire - The Hindu
> 
> 
> So much for Jaitley as a joint minister will make things faster and easier. Talk is simple when you are in the opposition, but now he see's the problems that he must deal with!


Indeed, but the issue they are referring to is raising defence spending to 2% of GDP or even that one off 25% hike he had suggested. It doesn't specifically relate to the MMRCA deal and there is no questioning of not being able to pay for it this year.


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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> Indeed, but the issue they are referring to is raising defence spending to 2% of GDP or even that one off 25% hike he had suggested. It doesn't specifically relate to the MMRCA deal and there is no questioning of not being able to pay for it this year.



Of course not, but it shows that the celebrations when he was announced as a joined defence and finance minister were useless. People simply have far too high expectations once from BJP because of all the promises, but also because they don't see the realities. It's simply is not that you are in power now and can do what you want, you have to justify any move and that for good reasons. It will be very interesting to see how the new budget will look like.


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## halloweene

@Sanco i was talking about the presence of AESA at Garuda. Talked today with Cpt Brocard (i am sure you know who he is), he told me he had no clue but he considered very highly probable the presence of AESA radar in one of the involved Rafale.

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## Sergi

sancho said:


> Of course not, but it shows that the celebrations when he was announced as a joined defence and finance minister were useless. People simply have far too high expectations once from BJP because of all the promises, but also because they don't see the realities. It's simply is not that you are in power now and can do what you want, you have to justify any move and that for good reasons. It will be very interesting to see how the new budget will look like.


Why not ???
Adjusting 2% of budget isnt a big deal. 
GOI has a lot of unesecssary spendings.


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## Agent_47



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## sancho

halloweene said:


> @Sanco i was talking about the presence of AESA at Garuda. Talked today with Cpt Brocard (i am sure you know who he is), he told me he had no clue but he considered very highly probable the presence of AESA radar in one of the involved Rafale.



Sorry my fault and I still hope that they have an AESA there, because it would be very important for IAF, but all pics that we saw so far, are showing F3s.



Sergi said:


> Why not ???
> Adjusting 2% of budget isnt a big deal.
> GOI has a lot of unesecssary spendings.



Because it is a big thing when you are in power and have to juggle with all demands and pressure from all sides, while trying to have a balanced budget. Just look at the demands of the forces now, which one will be provided first, which one could be combined in the defence budget of this FY, how much would the spending be increased to fix the rest in the coming years, all problems that Jaitley or the BJP can only evaluate now, while early or even campaign promises hardly have any relevance without having a real idea about the budgets or the demands.
And that is only the defence field, but as a FM he will get pressure now from all sides to provide more money, so the idea that he makes a difference in quickly providing budgets is flawed as it seems.


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## atlssa

*Eurofighter crashes at Spain's Moron base near Seville*




A Eurofighter jet, similar to the one pictured, crashed at the Moron air base

A pilot has died after his Eurofighter jet crashed at a military base in southern Spain, defence officials say.

"A Eurofighter has crashed on landing on the runway of the Moron base", a Spanish defence ministry spokeswoman told the AFP news agency.

The accident took place at around 14:00 local time (12:00 GMT) at the facility, 56km (35 miles) south-east of Seville.

The base is shared by Spain and the US Air Force, but only Spain operates the Eurofighter jet.

Local media say the aircraft smashed in to the ground while attempting to land.

Images posted on social media showed black smoke rising from the vicinity of the air base.





Eyewitness Jorge Gargallo took this picture of the crash site from a nearby field

BBC News - Eurofighter crashes at Spain's Moron base near Seville


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## halloweene

Pilot deceased. RIP.


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## Sergi

sancho said:


> Because it is a big thing when you are in power and have to juggle with all demands and pressure from all sides, while trying to have a balanced budget. Just look at the demands of the forces now, which one will be provided first, which one could be combined in the defence budget of this FY, how much would the spending be increased to fix the rest in the coming years, all problems that Jaitley or the BJP can only evaluate now, while early or even campaign promises hardly have any relevance without having a real idea about the budgets or the demands.
> And that is only the defence field, but as a FM he will get pressure now from all sides to provide more money, so the idea that he makes a difference in quickly providing budgets is flawed as it seems.


Thats what theory is Sancho 
Do you know from where the budget allotment came for Food security bill ???

If one has to do there is a way. If you have to juggle 2% (relatively small amount) all you have to do is take 0.2% from every allotment that is relatively unnoticed from common eye.
In case of Food security bill the juggle percentage was 0.5%


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## sancho

Sergi said:


> Thats what theory is Sancho
> Do you know from where the budget allotment came for Food security bill ???
> 
> If one has to do there is a way. If you have to juggle 2% (relatively small amount) all you have to do is take 0.2% from every allotment that is relatively unnoticed from common eye.
> In case of Food security bill the juggle percentage was 0.5%



If that would only be so simple, but first he has to juggle with it, meaning fighting for every 0.xxx % with different ministries and lobbies and so on and when that is done we can see, how the budget increase will be diverted between the forces, which again means juggeling. So a long way to go and we still don't have a final DM yet, nor do we know where the new government will focus their priorities other than the increase of basic manufacturing as it seems.


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## Sergi

sancho said:


> If that would only be so simple, but first he has to juggle with it, meaning fighting for every 0.xxx % with different ministries and lobbies and so on and when that is done we can see, how the budget increase will be diverted between the forces, which again means juggeling. So a long way to go and we still don't have a final DM yet, nor do we know where the new government will focus their priorities other than the increase of basic manufacturing as it seems.


It is that simple. look at the fund allocation for Food Sec. bill. money came from nowhere.

PM is always a boss nobody fight with him and not with this PM. if PM wish to do so he can.
All the ministerial committees are dismantled and Ministers are given free hand & responsibility over decisions and if he need help he has to go to PMO. What does this tell you ??? Ministers will work in accordance to PM. you know the meaning of that 
eg today govt decide to reduce Fertiliser subsidy ( Urea ) by 10% . Subsidy is around 11-15 billions INR. If my calcualtions are right GoI just made first step to 2-3% juggle 
Its more of a policy decision rather an just a juggle. Its was long awaited but no GoI showed the spine to do so. 
Exclusive - Government considering urea price hike to curb fertiliser subsidies| Reuters
PS: urea is most commonly used fertiliser heavily subsidised by GOI since stone age.


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## RPK

*Rafale Flown By Indian And French Air Force Chief Together Rajasthan*

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## sancho

> *Studying Eurofighter Typhoon Missiles To Give Maritime Attack Capability*
> 
> Eurofighter is looking at giving the Typhoon a maritime attack capability and is investigating at least three missiles to meet potential requirements for export, according to the executive leading Boeing Defense and Space Combat Aircraft sales effort.
> At least two of Typhoon's current export targets are requesting a maritime attack capability. Peter Maute, the head of combat aircraft sales at Boeing Defence, said the Boeing Harpoon and MBDA's Marte and Sea Brimstone missiles were being considered as possibilities for the European multi-role combat jet...
> 
> ...Qatar and Malaysia are known to have stipulated a maritime-strike capability for their next purchase of combat jets...



Eurofighter Studying Missiles To Give Typhoon Maritime Attack Capability | Defense News | defensenews.com


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## atlssa

*French Mirage jet fighter crashes in Niger *
France - Mali - Niger - Article published the Tuesday 10 June 2014 - Latest update : Tuesday 10 June 2014
By RFI

A French Mirage fighter jet has crashed in Niger on its return from a mission in Mali. The crew of two suffered no injuries, according to the French military.





Mirage 2000 jets on a base in Corsica - Reuters​
The Mirage 2000D crashed half way between Gao in the restive north of Mali and the Niger capital Niamey, where France has a military base.

"The crew was forced to eject following a technical failure," said French military spokesperson Gilles Jaron. "The pilot and navigator were retrieved safe and sound."

The plane, worth several millions euros, is one of six fighter jets being used by the French army in the region.

French troops were sent to Mali in January 2013 after an alliance of Tuareg separatists and Islamists took control of the north.
Defence Minister Jeran-Yves Le Drian last month announced that France will deploy 3,000 troops in the region to fight Islamist and other armed groups.

French Mirage jet fighter crashes in Niger - France - Mali - Niger - RFI


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## sancho

@Oscar

If you have some time to spare and it is possible to do it, can you make some new renders of this Eurofighter concept and replace the Storm Shadow missiles with Brahmos M?












For the record, some of Oscar's earlier renders:

Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions | Page 550

Indian Air Force News & Discussions | Page 118

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## SQ8

sancho said:


> @Oscar
> 
> If you have some time to spare and it is possible to do it, can you make some new renders of this Eurofighter concept and replace the Storm Shadow missiles with Brahmos M?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For the record, some of Oscar's earlier renders:
> 
> Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions | Page 550
> 
> Indian Air Force News & Discussions | Page 118



There will be no renders, but Ill try adding a moskit on the Storm shadow pylon. 
See where that goes.

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## SQ8

@sancho Will this do for the time being? 

Brahmos, AGM-84D, Paveway , Litening and A2A load as well.

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## sancho

Oscar said:


> @sancho Will this do for the time being?
> 
> Brahmos, AGM-84D, Paveway , Litening and A2A load as well.



Nice, thanks! Always good to see your work, so please add more when you have time. Maybe with CFTs, METEOR and Brahmos only!


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## SQ8

sancho said:


> Nice, thanks! Always good to see your work, so please add more when you have time. Maybe with CFTs, METEOR and Brahmos only!


The CFTs are being a pain, so for the time being you're going to have to make do with this.

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## Mike_Brando

Abingdonboy said:


> Indeed, but the issue they are referring to is raising defence spending to 2% of GDP or even that one off 25% hike he had suggested. It doesn't specifically relate to the MMRCA deal and there is no questioning of not being able to pay for it this year.


I would love to see the defense budget increased to at least 3% of the GDP.Every powerful country on earth(U.S.,Russia,China) spends more than 3% of their GDP in Defense but India despite being surrounded by two "potential" adversaries is spending only 1.75% of our GDP(excluding all the pension benifits for the retired personnel) which is totally unacceptable for a country as large as India.I hope the situation changes with the appointment of the new Govt..We need a defense budget of at least $70 billion for our Armed forces...


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## meena24

Mike_Brando said:


> I would love to see the defense budget increased to at least 3% of the GDP.Every powerful country on earth(U.S.,Russia,China) spends more than 3% of their GDP in Defense but India despite being surrounded by two "potential" adversaries is spending only 1.75% of our GDP(excluding all the pension benifits for the retired personnel) which is totally unacceptable for a country as large as India.I hope the situation changes with the appointment of the new Govt..We need a defense budget of at least $70 billion for our Armed forces...



Yes your statement is absolutely right, we need to Increase our defence Budget. 

a) we have to finalize Dassault Rafale deal as soon as possible? can any one tell when it will be signed?

Signing Dassault Rafale will completely give a edge us over Pakistan in arms race, Pakistan will be forced to restrict its funding on counter Insurgency and will be forced to buy more expensive jets and tanks. 

We also need to buy M777 Artillery guns. 

Also If possible we need to look a foreign fighter jet to replace our ageing Mig-21's and Mig-27 , I am not sure when HAL Tejas is going to be Inducted.

Last time when I placed my proposal, such as Gripen or Mig-35 as Interim replacement. Mr. Sancho has told that they are not in Production and only prototypes have been built.

This much delay in HAL Tejas is not at all acceptable.

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## sancho

meena24 said:


> can any one tell when it will be signed?



Rumored to be signed at the end of this, or early next year



meena24 said:


> Also If possible we need to look a foreign fighter jet to replace our ageing Mig-21's and Mig-27



That's what MMRCA is about.



meena24 said:


> Last time when I placed my proposal, such as Gripen or Mig-35 as Interim replacement. Mr. Sancho has told that they are not in Production and only prototypes have been built.



Not sure when we had this discussion, but that still remains a fact!


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## atlssa

*Rafale contract elusive, Eurofighter and Saab remain hopeful*
*Saab believes co-developing Tejas Mark II would end need for Rafale*

* Ajai Shukla | New Delhi 
June 17, 2014* Last Updated at 00:15 IST

More than two years after India's ministry of defence (MoD) chose to buy 126 Dassault Rafale fighters for the Indian Air Force (IAF), the world's biggest fighter contract swings in the wind. With no deal in sight after 28 months of haggling with Dassault, two of the losing vendors -Eurofighter and Saab - believe they could yet come out tops.

Eurofighter GmbH, whose Typhoon fighter narrowly lost out to the Rafale, still retains a senior executive in New Delhi. This is to allow Eurofighter - the official runner-up - to quickly step in should negotiations with Dassault collapse.

Swedish company, Saab, whose Gripen-D light fighter was evaluated but not selected, similarly believes the contract remains open. Saab places hope in a proposal that it formulated with the Defence Research and Developments Organisation (DRDO) to co-develop and co-manufacture the improved Tejas Mark II Light Combat Aircraft (LCA). This affordable, indigenous, single-engine fighter could be built in numbers, providing the IAF a more economical and effective option than limited numbers of enormously expensive, twin-engine Rafales.

Saab believes that a successful Tejas Mark II would erode the need for the Rafale. The Swedish company has offered co-development and co-manufacture of the Tejas Mark II, even whilst fielding the cheapest and most economical fighter of the six in the fray.

s IAF officers confirm, India had intended to buy a cheap, light fighter to replace the IAF's MiG-21s as they were phased out of service. In late 2004, IAF sent out a "request for information", to four manufacturers of small, cheap fighters - the Russian MiG-29; the American F-16; the French Mirage-2000-5, and the Saab Gripen.

Only in August 2007, when IAF issued a formal tender - termed "request for proposal", or RfP - were expensive, twin-engine fighters like the Eurofighter, Rafale and F/A-18 regarded as options. Today, with the economy stuttering, the daunting prospect of paying Rs 1,00,000 crore for 126 fighters could mean that low cost becomes decisive.

Saab sees further advantage in backing the indigenous horse, the Tejas Mark II. The Swedish company claims it is best suited for upgrading the Tejas Mark I, since it is currently upgrading the Gripen-D by fitting a new engine, the General Electric F-414 power pack. Upgrading the Tejas Mark I to Mark II specifications involves exactly the same upgrade.

Last DRDO chief, Dr V K Saraswat, was convinced that Saab's assistance would be ideal for the Tejas programme. In 2012, DRDO sent Saab a "Request for Information" asking a rough estimate of costs, which Saab duly submitted.

In Jan 2013, DRDO followed up with a RfP, asking for technical and financial bids for Saab to jointly audit the Tejas design with DRDO. Saab had proposed an eight-10 month long audit, after which a fresh design would be finalised and a manufacturing line established.

MoD sources tell Business Standard that Saab proposed in 2011 to co-develop the Tejas Mark II and roll it out from a new manufacturing line within five years. Saab wanted at least 51 per cent ownership of the joint venture company that built the new Tejas, to be free of government controls and procedures.

By May 2013, a joint design contract seemed imminent, says Saab. But on June 1, a new DRDO chief, Dr Avinash Chander, took charge and Saab was unofficially told that DRDO could not co-develop the Tejas with a foreign company without an international tender to select the partner.

Contacted for comments, a DRDO spokesperson told Business Standard that design work on the Tejas Mark II is proceeding satisfactorily without a foreign partner.

In fact, MoD sources admit the Tejas Mark II programme faces significant design challenges beyond merely fitting a new engine. The Tejas Mark I was not designed with operational availability in mind, with important systems placed in inaccessible places that take time for technicians to reach. The Gripen-D, in contrast, requires just five man-hours of maintenance for an hour of flying. (The figure for the Tejas is not available, but the Rafale is estimated to require 15 man-hours).

Furthermore, the new F-414 engine would require the Tejas' length to be increased by half a metre. In addition, experts say the air intakes will have to be redesigned, since they do not allow in sufficient air for even the F-404 engine, far less the more powerful F-414 that will be fitted.

Aerospace analysts acknowledge Saab's expertise in building economical and effective fighters. The Gripen-D costs half as much as a Rafale. International expert, Jane's, puts the operating cost of a Gripen at $4,700 per flight hour, while flying a Rafale for an hour costs $15,000.

Rafale contract elusive, Eurofighter and Saab remain hopeful | Business Standard


@sancho Your inputs are needed here. Please!


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## rockstarIN

atlssa said:


> *Rafale contract elusive, Eurofighter and Saab remain hopeful*
> *Saab believes co-developing Tejas Mark II would end need for Rafale*
> 
> * Ajai Shukla | New Delhi
> June 17, 2014* Last Updated at 00:15 IST
> 
> More than two years after India's ministry of defence (MoD) chose to buy 126 Dassault Rafale fighters for the Indian Air Force (IAF), the world's biggest fighter contract swings in the wind. With no deal in sight after 28 months of haggling with Dassault, two of the losing vendors -Eurofighter and Saab - believe they could yet come out tops.
> 
> Eurofighter GmbH, whose Typhoon fighter narrowly lost out to the Rafale, still retains a senior executive in New Delhi. This is to allow Eurofighter - the official runner-up - to quickly step in should negotiations with Dassault collapse.
> 
> Swedish company, Saab, whose Gripen-D light fighter was evaluated but not selected, similarly believes the contract remains open. Saab places hope in a proposal that it formulated with the Defence Research and Developments Organisation (DRDO) to co-develop and co-manufacture the improved Tejas Mark II Light Combat Aircraft (LCA). This affordable, indigenous, single-engine fighter could be built in numbers, providing the IAF a more economical and effective option than limited numbers of enormously expensive, twin-engine Rafales.
> 
> Saab believes that a successful Tejas Mark II would erode the need for the Rafale. The Swedish company has offered co-development and co-manufacture of the Tejas Mark II, even whilst fielding the cheapest and most economical fighter of the six in the fray.
> 
> s IAF officers confirm, India had intended to buy a cheap, light fighter to replace the IAF's MiG-21s as they were phased out of service. In late 2004, IAF sent out a "request for information", to four manufacturers of small, cheap fighters - the Russian MiG-29; the American F-16; the French Mirage-2000-5, and the Saab Gripen.
> 
> Only in August 2007, when IAF issued a formal tender - termed "request for proposal", or RfP - were expensive, twin-engine fighters like the Eurofighter, Rafale and F/A-18 regarded as options. Today, with the economy stuttering, the daunting prospect of paying Rs 1,00,000 crore for 126 fighters could mean that low cost becomes decisive.
> 
> Saab sees further advantage in backing the indigenous horse, the Tejas Mark II. The Swedish company claims it is best suited for upgrading the Tejas Mark I, since it is currently upgrading the Gripen-D by fitting a new engine, the General Electric F-414 power pack. Upgrading the Tejas Mark I to Mark II specifications involves exactly the same upgrade.
> 
> Last DRDO chief, Dr V K Saraswat, was convinced that Saab's assistance would be ideal for the Tejas programme. In 2012, DRDO sent Saab a "Request for Information" asking a rough estimate of costs, which Saab duly submitted.
> 
> In Jan 2013, DRDO followed up with a RfP, asking for technical and financial bids for Saab to jointly audit the Tejas design with DRDO. Saab had proposed an eight-10 month long audit, after which a fresh design would be finalised and a manufacturing line established.
> 
> MoD sources tell Business Standard that Saab proposed in 2011 to co-develop the Tejas Mark II and roll it out from a new manufacturing line within five years. Saab wanted at least 51 per cent ownership of the joint venture company that built the new Tejas, to be free of government controls and procedures.
> 
> By May 2013, a joint design contract seemed imminent, says Saab. But on June 1, a new DRDO chief, Dr Avinash Chander, took charge and Saab was unofficially told that DRDO could not co-develop the Tejas with a foreign company without an international tender to select the partner.
> 
> Contacted for comments, a DRDO spokesperson told Business Standard that design work on the Tejas Mark II is proceeding satisfactorily without a foreign partner.
> 
> In fact, MoD sources admit the Tejas Mark II programme faces significant design challenges beyond merely fitting a new engine. The Tejas Mark I was not designed with operational availability in mind, with important systems placed in inaccessible places that take time for technicians to reach. The Gripen-D, in contrast, requires just five man-hours of maintenance for an hour of flying. (The figure for the Tejas is not available, but the Rafale is estimated to require 15 man-hours).
> 
> Furthermore, the new F-414 engine would require the Tejas' length to be increased by half a metre. In addition, experts say the air intakes will have to be redesigned, since they do not allow in sufficient air for even the F-404 engine, far less the more powerful F-414 that will be fitted.
> 
> Aerospace analysts acknowledge Saab's expertise in building economical and effective fighters. The Gripen-D costs half as much as a Rafale. International expert, Jane's, puts the operating cost of a Gripen at $4,700 per flight hour, while flying a Rafale for an hour costs $15,000.
> 
> Rafale contract elusive, Eurofighter and Saab remain hopeful | Business Standard
> 
> 
> @sancho Your inputs are needed here. Please!




The usual Ajay Shukla rants nothing else..!

like DRDO(?) says LCA-MK2 is on process satisfactorily whereas MoD admits it has got design challenges!!

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## sancho

atlssa said:


> *Rafale contract elusive, Eurofighter and Saab remain hopeful*
> *Saab believes co-developing Tejas Mark II would end need for Rafale
> *
> @sancho Your inputs are needed here. Please!



As @rockstarIN correctly said, it's just another classic of Ajay Shukla. 

The article is full of mistakes and baseless claims, that guy has zero idea about IAF matters, but sadly gets his space in the Indian media (for reasons that I simply don't understand), so just ignore it.

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## rockstarIN

sancho said:


> As @rockstarIN correctly said, it's just another classic of Ajay Shukla.
> 
> The article is full of mistakes and baseless claims, that guy has zero idea about IAF matters, but sadly gets his space in the Indian media (for reasons that I simply don't understand), so just ignore it.




The concern is that his article publishes mostly in Business Standard, and the readers of that is mostly high class.

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## sancho

rockstarIN said:


> The concern is that his article publishes mostly in Business Standard, and the readers of that is mostly high class.



I'm not too familiar with the Indian media, but I know that he is often at NDTV as well as a so called "expert" and that he is spreading a lot of nonsense in his blog as well. For me he is clearly a lobbyist for mainly US interests, but sadly sensational news sells in India.

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## atlssa

@rockstarIN 
@sancho

Thank you!


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## GORKHALI

Oscar said:


> The CFTs are being a pain, so for the time being you're going to have to make do with this.


Awesome work Sir .I would love some work for LCA MK 2 or LCH if you got some spare time for us.


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## Indus Falcon

*India's Fighter Jet Negotiations Stall Over Delivery Commitments*
Jun. 16, 2014 - 
By VIVEK RAGHUVANSHI

*NEW DELHI*— India’s $12 billion Medium Multi-role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) program has run into turbulence due to a disagreement over delivery commitments, according to an Indian Defence Ministry source.

The Indian Air Force has told the new government that Dassault Aviation, maker of the Rafale jet, and Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL), which will produce the aircraft in India, must put their delivery guarantees in writing before the MoD signs the contract, the MoD source said.

HAL is unwilling to give any written guarantee on the delivery schedule for the Indian-made Rafales, and instead wants Dassault to guarantee deliveries of the Indian-made aircraft, a condition the French have already rejected, the MoD source said.

The program’s request for proposal stipulates that the first 18 aircraft will be supplied by the vendor — Dassault — in fly-away condition and the remaining 108 aircraft will be manufactured — in this case, by HAL — through technology transfer. The delivery of the aircraft should begin three years after the contract is signed.

India gave Dassault “preferred bidder status” in 2012 for the $12 billion program.

The MMRCA contract negotiations have also been delayed because HAL has not finalized the cost of the India-made Rafale.

No date is available for when the final cost of the Indian-made Rafale will be provided to the MoD, according to a senior HAL official.

Signing the deal within six months is unlikely, the MoD source said.

Executives from Dassault were unavailable for comment.

MoD had set up four subcommittees in the run-up to the finalization of the MMRCA deal with Dassault. They are: Technology of Production; Offsets; Logistics; and Cost Negotiations.

While the committees on Logistics and Offsets are almost ready with their reports, the remaining two are delayed, the MoD source added.

A team from HAL representing various sections of the production department visited Dassault facilities in France last month to understand the production process as it attempts to calculate the cost of the Indian-made Rafale, the HAL official said.

The delays in finalizing the deal have not only pushed back delivery of the fighter, but also led to cost escalations of more than 30 percent, an Air Force official said.

The first request for information for the MMRCA was floated in December 2005; the request for proposals followed in August 2007.

Rafale beat the Eurofighter Typhoon only on the basis of cost, after only the two bidders were left in the field.

The F-16, F/A-18, Gripen and MiG-35 were ejected from competition after the flight trials in August 2011 and the cost was not taken into consideration





India's Fighter Jet Negotiations Stall Over Delivery Commitments | Defense News | defensenews.com

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## NKVD

Abu Nasar said:


> *India's Fighter Jet Negotiations Stall Over Delivery Commitments*
> Jun. 16, 2014 -
> By VIVEK RAGHUVANSHI
> 
> *NEW DELHI*— India’s $12 billion Medium Multi-role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) program has run into turbulence due to a disagreement over delivery commitments, according to an Indian Defence Ministry source.
> 
> The Indian Air Force has told the new government that Dassault Aviation, maker of the Rafale jet, and Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL), which will produce the aircraft in India, must put their delivery guarantees in writing before the MoD signs the contract, the MoD source said.
> 
> HAL is unwilling to give any written guarantee on the delivery schedule for the Indian-made Rafales, and instead wants Dassault to guarantee deliveries of the Indian-made aircraft, a condition the French have already rejected, the MoD source said.
> 
> The program’s request for proposal stipulates that the first 18 aircraft will be supplied by the vendor — Dassault — in fly-away condition and the remaining 108 aircraft will be manufactured — in this case, by HAL — through technology transfer. The delivery of the aircraft should begin three years after the contract is signed.
> 
> India gave Dassault “preferred bidder status” in 2012 for the $12 billion program.
> 
> The MMRCA contract negotiations have also been delayed because HAL has not finalized the cost of the India-made Rafale.
> 
> No date is available for when the final cost of the Indian-made Rafale will be provided to the MoD, according to a senior HAL official.
> 
> Signing the deal within six months is unlikely, the MoD source said.
> 
> Executives from Dassault were unavailable for comment.
> 
> MoD had set up four subcommittees in the run-up to the finalization of the MMRCA deal with Dassault. They are: Technology of Production; Offsets; Logistics; and Cost Negotiations.
> 
> While the committees on Logistics and Offsets are almost ready with their reports, the remaining two are delayed, the MoD source added.
> 
> A team from HAL representing various sections of the production department visited Dassault facilities in France last month to understand the production process as it attempts to calculate the cost of the Indian-made Rafale, the HAL official said.
> 
> The delays in finalizing the deal have not only pushed back delivery of the fighter, but also led to cost escalations of more than 30 percent, an Air Force official said.
> 
> The first request for information for the MMRCA was floated in December 2005; the request for proposals followed in August 2007.
> 
> Rafale beat the Eurofighter Typhoon only on the basis of cost, after only the two bidders were left in the field.
> 
> The F-16, F/A-18, Gripen and MiG-35 were ejected from competition after the flight trials in August 2011 and the cost was not taken into consideration
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> India's Fighter Jet Negotiations Stall Over Delivery Commitments | Defense News | defensenews.com


Old news The negotiations are already made with Hal 70% and Dassault 30% guarantee for Work in Indian Manufactured Rafale's

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## Nitin Goyal

Structural deficiencies of DRDO stalling the progress.


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## NKVD

Nitin Goyal said:


> Structural deficiencies of DRDO stalling the progress.


It can be corrected by 100% FDI in defence BAE And others Firms are Ready for this program now All Depends on the new MOD.


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## sancho

In the meantime....






...*British Typhoon intercepting fully armed Russian Su-27 over the Baltics*

The Aviationist » Awesome photo of British Typhoon intercepting fully armed Russian Su-27 over the Baltics


It would look pretty similar, if Indian EF's would intercept Chinese Flankers.

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## sancho

> *BAE Systems awarded Brimstone 2 onto Typhoon study contract*
> 
> BAE Systems has been awarded an initial study contract, valued at £5 million by the UK Ministry of Defence to evaluate the integration of the MBDA Brimstone 2 air-to-ground precision weapon with the Typhoon aircraft.
> 
> Work is currently underway at BAE Systems' Warton site in Lancashire to assess the aerodynamic properties of carrying the weapon through a series of wind tunnel tests. Alongside delivering an effective route to Brimstone 2 integration for the UK Royal Air Force (RAF) by 2018, the study is also set to deliver wider benefits through the exploration of a common launcher approach which could also be used for other multiple weapons stores such as SPEAR 3.
> 
> The Brimstone 2 weapon will add to the swing-role capability of the Typhoon aircraft. Brimstone 2 is effective against the most challenging, high speed and manoeuvring targets over land and sea. As a low collateral, close air support weapon it is already combat proven in Afghanistan and Libya by the RAF.
> The study contract will transition the Dual Mode Brimstone capability that is combat proven on Tornado GR4 to Typhoon utilising the Brimstone 2 missile.
> 
> Mark Bowman, BAE Systems' Chief Test Pilot said: “With a proven track record on RAF Tornados, the Brimstone 2 weapon offers uncompromising precision and a flexible capability that meets the emerging threats of modern warfare. The Typhoon pilot will be able to confidently engage a wide range of target types including fast moving vehicles. When integrated Brimstone 2 will be another significant development step for Typhoon, enhancing the aircraft’s credentials and relevancy going forward.”



ADS Advance - BAE Systems awarded Brimstone 2 onto Typhoon study contract


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## rockstarIN

Sancho switched to ef. Now. ..


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## sancho

rockstarIN said:


> Sancho switched to ef. Now. ..


Hehe, I didn't switch but hope that India gets the best deal, that's more important than our personal preferences.


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## Agent_47



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## meena24

sancho said:


> Rumored to be signed at the end of this, or early next year
> 
> 
> 
> That's what MMRCA is about.
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure when we had this discussion, but that still remains a fact!



Sir, but LCA delays are not acceptable,

can you tell whether this scenario will work.

IAF can induct LCA Mark-1 whenever it is ready, but instead of Mark II, they can go for a foreign fighter jet, because I dont have a hope of seeing LCA Mark 2 before 2020. We can buy around 50 Mig-35 from Russia, I hope Mig - 35 will be Operational by 2017 and there are reports that Russian Air force is planning to induct Mig-35. Logistics and spares also will not be a issue because India already flies Mig-29 ( IAF: 60 Indian navy : 40). Instead LCA Mark 2 can be diverted to Indian Navy avation wing to replace their Harrier fighter Jets.


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## rockstarIN

meena24 said:


> Sir, but LCA delays are not acceptable,
> 
> can you tell whether this scenario will work.
> 
> IAF can induct LCA Mark-1 whenever it is ready, but instead of Mark II, they can go for a foreign fighter jet, because I dont have a hope of seeing LCA Mark 2 before 2020. We can buy around 50 Mig-35 from Russia, I hope Mig - 35 will be Operational by 2017 and there are reports that Russian Air force is planning to induct Mig-35. Logistics and spares also will not be a issue because India already flies Mig-29 ( IAF: 60 Indian navy : 40). Instead LCA Mark 2 can be diverted to Indian Navy avation wing to replace their Harrier fighter Jets.



Not at all good idea, better buy more rafales or lease Gripens


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## atlssa

@sancho 
Please, I need to make you a request. If is possible, please send me a private message.


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## cloud_9

*At One-Month Mark, PM Gives His Team Three Focus Areas*


> In response to repeated alerts from the armed forces about outdated and inadequate equipment, the PM has held a series of consultations with Defence Minister Arun Jaitley and the chiefs of the Army, Air Force and Navy. They have been asked to list in order of priority which weapons they need; a plan that outlines how to best use funds to modernise the armed forces has also been ordered.



We will soon be hearing something about this deal after the budget


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## atlssa

*No Rafale for Qatar, at least not yet!*

*UPDATE 2-France wins Qatar tram deal, discusses Rafale jets| Reuters*
Mon Jun 23, 2014 8:58pm BST

PARIS, June 23 (Reuters) - French conglomerates Alstom and Vinci signed a 2 billion euro ($2.72 billion) deal with Qatar on Monday to build a tram system in the future Lusail City, *while the two countries also discussed a possible defence contract.*

The deal, which will see the light rail system starting to operate in 2018-20, was signed in front of journalists during a visit to Paris by Qatar's emir, Sheikh Tamim bin Hamad al-Thani.

One of the Gulf's largest real estate developments, Lusail City is expected to house up to 200,000 people and contain commercial districts including the $275 million Marina Mall project, 22 hotels, four islands and two golf courses.

The estimated $45 billion development will also feature the 80,000-seat Lusail Stadium, where the championship match of the 2022 World Cup soccer tournament will be played.

Qatar has been under fire for its treatment of migrant workers, many of whom are reported to have died on the country's infrastructure projects, but has announced stricter measures for contractors involved in building work for the 2022 tournament.

Asked whether France had raised the issue of worker conditions during the emir's visit, a French official said, "We talk about everything with Qatar. There are no forbidden topics."

*Leaders of the two countries also discussed the possible sale of French Rafale fighter jets, built by Dassault Aviation , to Qatar but there was no immediate conclusion.*

"They discussed it. Negotiations are continuing," a source close to French President Francois Hollande said following a meeting held during the emir's first official visit to France.

Qatar is planning a significant increase in the size of its air force as the energy-rich Gulf state forges a wider international role after taking part in the 2011 Libya conflict.

Its air force operates a squadron of 12 Dassault Mirage-2000 jets, but is now looking to buy 72 jets in two equal tranches.

"Qatar has always chosen French technology for its armed forces," Hollande said in a speech toasting the visiting Qatari head of state before an official dinner.

*The emir made no reference to the Rafale during his remarks, delivered in French.*
"FRENCH STRONGHOLD"

France is anxious to secure its first export buyer for the Rafale as it also tries to close a long-awaited $15 billion deal with India for a purchase of 126 of the multi-role jets.

In Qatar, Dassault Aviation is competing with the Eurofighter Typhoon - offered by a European consortium of Airbus Group, BAE Systems and Finmeccanica - and the F-15 fighter built by U.S. planemaker Boeing.

"Traditionally, Qatar is a French stronghold in arms exports but they have been buying from elsewhere," said Douglas Barrie, senior fellow at the International Institute for Strategic Studies, noting speculation that Qatar might split the order and go for a mixed fleet despite incurring extra training costs.

"I would be surprised if the French walk away from this empty-handed. Is it beyond the bounds of possibility that someone else gets all 72 aircraft? No, but unlikely," he said.

Qatar is among a number of Gulf states looking to renew air power but also seen as playing a waiting game with Washington for the newer Lockheed Martin F-35.

The United States has not so far decided whether to offer its latest radar-evading combat jet to the Gulf, but arms sales experts say it could become available to the region about five years after Israel receives its first F-35 fighter jets in 2016.

U.S. policy guidelines call for Israel to maintain a competitive military edge.

"The key question is whether the Americans will release the F-35 and if so when," Barrie said.

That, he said, would influence whether Qatar feels it can buy something in the interim and then make the case in Washington to release the F-35 into the region. Even then, competition for any interim deals is expected to be fierce. (Editing by Maya Nikolaeva, Alexandria Sage and David Evans)

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## sancho

meena24 said:


> Sir, but LCA delays are not acceptable,



True, but the project is too important for us to let it go, since it will set the base for our aero industry for the future. Even if delayed, we gained a lot of important and useful know how, we now have to learn how to fix the problems. The MK1 is already under production and after FOC should be reasonably good for air policing and CAS roles. The Mig 35 won't come for sure, for numerous reasons of the fighter itself, but MMRCA is meant to be the alternative for LCA and if MK2 would not be inducted, it would only mean more of the MMRCA winner and not to add a different type of fighter.

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## AMMAR Niaz Dawood

Srirangan said:


> *Indian Air Force to purchase 200 MRCA's*
> 
> Date: 22/11/2005
> Agency: Various Agencies
> Topics: india indian air force defense military
> 
> India will increase the number of Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) it plans to buy to 200, opening the door for more than one supplier, said Air Force and Ministry of Defence officials.
> 
> The Indian Cabinet Committee on Security, which clears major defense programs, in October accepted the Air Force's proposal to increase the number from the original 126, for which a request for information already has been sent to overseas vendors. The value of the original contract was $5 billion; the revised plan brings the combined value of one or more contracts to $8.5 billion.
> 
> A senior Defence Ministry official said the Air Force plans to phase out 60 of its 140 Jaguar aircraft in the next five years, by which time MMRCAs would start arriving. The additional planes will replace more Jaguars, aging MiG-23s, and some squadrons of MiG-27s, an Air Force official said.
> 
> The official said the first batch of MMRCAs could be supplied by one vendor, and perhaps the second lot could be made in India under licensed production from the same or a different vendor.
> 
> A request for information for the initial 126 planes was sent to Lockheed Martin for its F-16, Saab for the JAS 39 Gripen, Russian Aircraft Corporation MiG (RAC MiG) for the MiG-29 SMT, and Dassault Aviation for the Mirage 2000-5. Boeing also has offered its F/A-18 aircraft for consideration, as has RAC MiG for the MiG-35.
> 
> The indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) is due to replace the services MiG-21 combat aircraft, but that program is more than a decade behind schedule. The LCA is slated for limited production by 2007 or 2008.
> 
> Defence Ministry sources said it will be difficult for the government to choose among the four vendors because political and strategic considerations must be weighed in addition to technical factors.
> 
> The sources noted that the move to buy up to 200 MMRCAs would certainly ease the governments burden, as more then one type of MMRCA could be selected.
> 
> They said the Air Force favors the French Mirage 2000-5 aircraft, but cannot ignore the firm from Russia, which is the largest supplier of arms and equipment to the Indian Defense Forces. However, it has been a year since Moscow and India have penned an arms deal. Russia has insisted India first sign an intellectual property rights accord on defense equipment and weapons, which would not allow Indias Russian-built weaponry to be upgraded or fitted with equipment from a third country.
> 
> Another consideration is that India and the United States have entered into a new strategic partnership, with Washington agreeing to provide nuclear and space technology for civilian use. The purchase of the F-16 or F/A-18 would signal the beginning of a new defense relationship between India and the United States, said Surya Pal Singh, retired Indian Air Force air commodore.
> 
> The purchase of two types of MMRCAs not only will help speed up acquisition of the aircraft, it also may help the Air Force acquire American aircraft, which have been offered with the latest radar, Singh said.
> 
> India wants as part of the MMRCA package the U.S. Active Electronically Scanned Array radar as well as new-generation missiles, the Defence Ministry official said.


After all this is the Total Size of the IAF increasing specially in quantity or squadrons ??????


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## Abingdonboy

AMMAR Niaz Dawood said:


> After all this is the Total Size of the IAF increasing specially in quantity or squadrons ??????


Indeed. Currently the fighter SQD strength is around 33, the IAF's sanctioned fighter SQD strength is 42 which it should achieve by 2022 and by 2030 they will have 50 fighter SQDs.


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## AMMAR Niaz Dawood

Abingdonboy said:


> Indeed. Currently the fighter SQD strength is around 33, the IAF's sanctioned fighter SQD strength is 42 which it should achieve by 2022 and by 2030 they will have 50 fighter SQDs.


Soooo what u are basically trying to say is that IAF is once again very close in gaining edge over the PAF ???


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## Abingdonboy

AMMAR Niaz Dawood said:


> Soooo what u are basically trying to say is that IAF is once again very close in gaining edge over the PAF ???


Did it ever lose it?

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## AMMAR Niaz Dawood

Abingdonboy said:


> Did it ever lose it?


Well !!! I was hearing official news on Pakistani media and almost on every Pakistani paper and including defence.pk claiming that PAF for the first time ever gained air superiority over IAF .... In terms of Combat capability specially and many more other features about which I really don,t remember much ...


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## Agent_47

AMMAR Niaz Dawood said:


> Well !!! I was hearing official news on Pakistani media and almost on every Pakistani paper and including defence.pk claiming that PAF for the first time ever gained air superiority over IAF .... In terms of Combat capability specially and many more other features about which I really don,t remember much ...



Other than eating that garbage , Have you ever thought is it right? is your media unbiased ? Is it possible when IAF modernization budget is more than the whole budget of your armed force ?

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## Abingdonboy

AMMAR Niaz Dawood said:


> Well !!! I was hearing official news on Pakistani media and almost on every Pakistani paper and including defence.pk claiming that PAF for the first time ever gained air superiority over IAF .... In terms of Combat capability specially and many more other features about which I really don,t remember much ...


I would ask you to consider your sources and look at the facts for yourself. The IAF has the edge in both quantity and quality. The fact is the IAF's edge has diminished in the past few years as its SQD strength has fallen to a 33 SQD low but from here it will recover to its sanctioned strength of 42 SQDs within the decade.


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## AMMAR Niaz Dawood

Agent_47 said:


> Other than eating that garbage , Have you ever thought is it right? is your media unbiased ? Is it possible when IAF modernization budget is more than the whole budget of your armed force ?


 I remember that even INDIAN media claimed that IAF lost its edge over PAF , due to PAFs induction of new jets like F-16s and JF 17s which very rapidly increased the combat ratio of the PAF over IAF , IAF lost edge over PAF due to its inefficiency and poor quality like the migs and mirages ( The flying coffins ) which resulted in all time low combat ratio against PAF , Do u not acknowledge these facts ????


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## kbd-raaf

AMMAR Niaz Dawood said:


> I remember that even INDIAN media claimed that IAF lost its edge over PAF , due to PAFs induction of new jets like F-16s and JF 17s which very rapidly increased the combat ratio of the PAF over IAF , IAF lost edge over PAF due to its inefficiency and poor quality like the migs and mirages ( The flying coffins ) which resulted in all time low combat ratio against PAF , Do u not acknowledge these facts ????



Since when were Mirage 2000-5s 'poor quality'? They're at par with the block 52 F-16s which are the most advanced that the PAF operate. We also operate way more of the 2000/5s than the PAF operate block 52s. We also operate the MiG-29 UPG, which are also at par if not superior to your latest F-16s.

Forgetting the 280 Su-30MKIs, which is the best the IAF operate which are mostly deployed to the Chinese border.

The PAF also operate the F-7 which is a Chinese MiG-21 copy.

The JF-17s are meant for point defense only and wont stand much of a chance of against IAF frontline fighters. They'll be used against MiG-27s and Jaguars on bombing runs whilst given top cover by the F-16s.


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## AMMAR Niaz Dawood

Abingdonboy said:


> I would ask you to consider your sources and look at the facts for yourself. The IAF has the edge in both quantity and quality. The fact is the IAF's edge has diminished in the past few years as its SQD strength has fallen to a 33 SQD low but from here it will recover to its sanctioned strength of 42 SQDs within the decade.


I remember that even INDIAN media claimed that IAF lost its edge over PAF , due to PAFs induction of new jets like F-16s and JF 17s which very rapidly increased the combat ratio of the PAF over IAF , IAF lost edge over PAF due to its inefficiency and poor quality like the migs and mirages ( The flying coffins ) which resulted in all time low combat ratio against PAF , Do u not acknowledge these facts ???? It looks like u have now confessed in your last line about the reality proving that I am making sense and m logical making claims on facts , Thank U


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## AMMAR Niaz Dawood

kbd-raaf said:


> Since when were Mirage 2000-5s 'poor quality'? They're at par with the block 52 F-16s the PAF operate.





kbd-raaf said:


> Since when were Mirage 2000-5s 'poor quality'? They're at par with the block 52 F-16s which are the most advanced that the PAF operate. We also operate way more of the 2000/5s than the PAF operate block 52s. We also operate the MiG-29 UPG, which are also at par if not superior to your latest F-16s.
> 
> Forgetting the 280 Su-30MKIs, which is the best the IAF operate which are mostly deployed to the Chinese border.
> 
> The PAF also operate the F-7 which is a Chinese MiG-21 copy.
> 
> The JF-17s are meant for point defense only and wont stand much of a chance of against IAF frontline fighters. They'll be used against MiG-27s and Jaguars on bombing runs whilst given top cover by the F-16s.





kbd-raaf said:


> Since when were Mirage 2000-5s 'poor quality'? They're at par with the block 52 F-16s which are the most advanced that the PAF operate. We also operate way more of the 2000/5s than the PAF operate block 52s. We also operate the MiG-29 UPG, which are also at par if not superior to your latest F-16s.
> 
> Forgetting the 280 Su-30MKIs, which is the best the IAF operate which are mostly deployed to the Chinese border.
> 
> The PAF also operate the F-7 which is a Chinese MiG-21 copy.
> 
> The JF-17s are meant for point defense only and wont stand much of a chance of against IAF frontline fighters. They'll be used against MiG-27s and Jaguars on bombing runs whilst given top cover by the F-16s.


Those F-7s U R talking about R either grounded , retired or are about to be retired and to be replaced by the JF 17s ,,,,,, what will be your answer to me ( as I a lay man ) listening to Pakistani media which according to u is not authentic then makes sure that he should also consult INDIAN media which happens to Claim that the IAF lost its edge over PAF in terms of combat ratio only , not in numbers , I repeat not in Numbers ... TRUST me if our media is irresponsible then they may have a reason to cheer its PUBLIC , what will be the INDIAN medias reason ???


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## kbd-raaf

AMMAR Niaz Dawood said:


> Those F-7s U R talking about R either grounded , retired or are about to be retired and to be replaced by the JF 17s ,,,,,, what will be your answer to me ( as I a lay man ) listening to Pakistani media which according to u is not authentic then makes sure that he should also consult INDIAN media which happens to Claim that the IAF lost its edge over PAF in terms of combat ratio only , not in numbers , I repeat not in Numbers ... TRUST me if our media is irresponsible then they may have a reason to cheer its PUBLIC , what will be the INDIAN medias reason ???



I need a translator to understand you, sorry, I'm out.


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## AMMAR Niaz Dawood

kbd-raaf said:


> I need a translator to understand you, sorry, I'm out.


Height of Patriotism


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## kbd-raaf

kbd-raaf said:


> I need a translator to understand you, sorry, I'm out.



Could you explain to me 'combat ratio' is, as far as I know, you coined the phrase yourself?


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## AMMAR Niaz Dawood

kbd-raaf said:


> Could you explain to me 'combat ratio' is, as far as I know, you coined the phrase yourself?


I did not , its like how many active jets superior in combat capability ( Including generation ) are active against your enemies force , like in dog fights , etc 2:1 or 1:2 ,,, got it ???


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## NKVD

kbd-raaf said:


> Since when were Mirage 2000-5s 'poor quality'? They're at par with the block 52 F-16s which are the most advanced that the PAF operate. We also operate way more of the 2000/5s than the PAF operate block 52s. We also operate the MiG-29 UPG, which are also at par if not superior to your latest F-16s.
> 
> Forgetting the 280 Su-30MKIs, which is the best the IAF operate which are mostly deployed to the Chinese border.
> 
> The PAF also operate the F-7 which is a Chinese MiG-21 copy.
> 
> The JF-17s are meant for point defense only and wont stand much of a chance of against IAF frontline fighters. They'll be used against MiG-27s and Jaguars on bombing runs whilst given top cover by the F-16s.


Mirage-2000-5 inferior to F-16 since when

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## kbd-raaf

AMMAR Niaz Dawood said:


> I did not , its like how many active jets superior in combat capability ( Including generation ) are active against your enemies force , like in dog fights , etc 2:1 or 1:2 ,,, got it ???



Nope, still have no idea what you mean, can you write it in Hindi if you're more comfortable?

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## Abingdonboy

AMMAR Niaz Dawood said:


> I remember that even INDIAN media claimed that IAF lost its edge over PAF , due to PAFs induction of new jets like F-16s and JF 17s which very rapidly increased the combat ratio of the PAF over IAF , IAF lost edge over PAF due to its inefficiency and poor quality like the migs and mirages ( The flying coffins ) which resulted in all time low combat ratio against PAF , Do u not acknowledge these facts ???? It looks like u have now confessed in your last line about the reality proving that I am making sense and m logical making claims on facts , Thank U


Pure nonsense. The PAF has no answer for the MKI which the IAF operates in larger numbers than all your F-16s combined. The Mirage 2000s and MiG-29s are both being significantly upgraded which alone would be able to give the PAF's F-16 Blk 52s a run for their money. The MiG-21 Bisons are a pretty good match for the Thunders.

The news you refer to is the IAF's traditional 3:1ratio falling to around 2 or less to 1 but this is merely a temporary situation, in qualitative terms that IAF still has a clear edge along with in quantity.

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## pursuit of happiness

Abingdonboy said:


> Pure nonsense. The PAF has no answer for the MKI which the IAF operates in larger numbers than all your F-16s combined. The Mirage 2000s and MiG-29s are both being significantly upgraded which alone would be able to give the PAF's F-16 Blk 52s a run for their money. The MiG-21 Bisons are a pretty good match for the Thunders.
> 
> The news you refer to is the IAF's traditional 3:1ratio falling to around 2 or less to 1 but this is merely a temporary situation, in qualitative terms that IAF still has a clear edge along with in quantity.


---
The MiG-21 Bisons are a pretty good match for the Thunders.?
can you elaborate ? 
MIgs are still give run for money to jf17


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## Agent_47

AMMAR Niaz Dawood said:


> I remember that even INDIAN media claimed that IAF lost its edge over PAF , due to PAFs induction of new jets like F-16s and JF 17s which very rapidly increased the combat ratio of the PAF over IAF , IAF lost edge over PAF due to its inefficiency and poor quality like the migs and mirages ( The flying coffins ) which resulted in all time low combat ratio against PAF , Do u not acknowledge these facts ????



Indian media can clam anything under the sun, they blah blah anything to get it sensationalize, they have the right to do so. Because it is a democracy. Unlike your country no one really cares what our military capability in our leadership.

Im not here to spoon fed you. Why don't you just search for a neutral source for the current status in quality and quantity.
yes, we are ill equipped for a two front war and we will make up for it by 2023 with fullfillment of 42 sqd.

in my opinion, for a small territory and tiny economy with an opponent who never attacked you first, you are well equipped.

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## kaykay

AMMAR Niaz Dawood said:


> I remember that even INDIAN media claimed that IAF lost its edge over PAF , due to PAFs induction of new jets like F-16s and JF 17s which very rapidly increased the combat ratio of the PAF over IAF , IAF lost edge over PAF due to its inefficiency and poor quality like the migs and mirages ( The flying coffins ) which resulted in all time low combat ratio against PAF , Do u not acknowledge these facts ???? It looks like u have now confessed in your last line about the reality proving that I am making sense and m logical making claims on facts , Thank U


Get your facts right. Tell me how many 4th gen aircrafts PAF iinducted since 2000? 80 or 90 at best while at the same time IAF inducted around 200 MKIs while naval air arm inducted ~35 Mig-29Ks(if you count them though they are for naval missions).
Coming to crashes, you will be surprised that even PAF crash rate is similar to that of IAFs in recent years.


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## Dazzler

IAF sqdrns are dwindling = Fact

No major fighter induction since MKI = Fact

Rafale deal is still in limbo, atleast by year end = Fact


PAF has 50 jf-17, 76 F-16 (18 blk 52+mlu), some are yet to go through mlu though but process continues, around 150 4th gen fighters and counting, more jordanian mlus are likely to join as PAF is analysing more pieces there.

PAF crashes are still much less compared to IAF crashes, just check the crash thread for facts, IAF until recently crashing even MKIs and Mirage 2000s. PAF mirage is too old to operate apart of 80 odd Rose upgraded ones which have plenty of life left, kodus to sealed Libyan engines and spares.

Lastly, IAF does not have 200 MKIs in service, and please stop making a fuss on MKI, it is a BIG machine with everything big about but yet to be proven in the battlefield. Indians are proud on BARS radar, without knowing that a PESA, not matter how good it is, is not an AESA. BARS is a huge unit, the amount of radiation it throws when operating on full, even on average power, it is detectable from a long range. 

Remember, radar, when working, radiates. Through internet and Russian sites, members and some retired personnel on f-16.net etc, give figures that it can detect fighter size (5sqm) at around 130-140km at best, so where is the advantage? There is none.

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## Agent_47

Dazzler said:


> IAF sqdrns are dwindling = Fact


It stopped dwindling to 34sq =Fact
It will be increasing to its peek of 42 sqd by 2023 = Fact



> No major fighter induction since MKI = Fact


Last decade IAF inducted 194 MKIs when PAF inducted inferior 50 jf-17 and 2 sqd of mlu f16s = Fact



> Rafale deal is still in limbo, atleast by year end = Fact


It will by done by year end = Fact



> PAF has 50 jf-17, 76 F-16 (18 blk 52+mlu), some are yet to go through mlu though but process continues


Mig29,M2K and jaguars are heavy getting upgrades = Fact



> PAF crashes are still much less compared to IAF crashes, just check the crash thread for facts, IAF until recently crashing even MKIs and Mirage 2000s.


Mig 21 crashing problem is solved = Fact
crash happens on both sides = Fact



> PAF mirage is too old to operate apart of 80 odd Rose upgraded ones which have plenty of life left, kodus to sealed Libyan engines and spares.


You call 1960 made airframe plenty of life left = fact



> Lastly, IAF does not have 200 MKIs in service, and please stop making a fuss on MKI,


As of March 2013, the IAF had a fleet of 194 Su-30MKI aircraft but this number will grow to 272 after India placed another order in December 2012 for 42 aircraft
Defence News - India May Expand Su-30MKI Order Beyond 272



> it is a BIG machine with everything big about but yet to be proven in the battlefield. Indians are proud on BARS radar, without knowing that a PESA, not matter how good it is, is not an AESA. BARS is a huge unit, the amount of radiation it throws when operating on full, even on average power, it is detectable from a long range.Remember, radar, when working, radiates. Through internet and Russian sites, members and some retired personnel on f-16.net etc, give figures that it can detect fighter size (5sqm) at around 130-140km at best, so where is the advantage? There is none.



You write plenty of self assumptions without credible sources just to cover how pissed are you of MKIs = fact
And you are a 'PDF Think Tank' = FACT

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## trident2010

For PAF, IAF will only need Mig-29 upg, Mirage 2000-5 upg and Bisons. Which are much superior in both quality and quantity what PAF boasts. MKI's will be overkill. Rest depends on how quickly India will want to finish the war.

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## NKVD

Abingdonboy said:


> Pure nonsense. The PAF has no answer for the MKI which the IAF operates in larger numbers than all your F-16s combined. The Mirage 2000s and MiG-29s are both being significantly upgraded which alone would be able to give the PAF's F-16 Blk 52s a run for their money. The MiG-21 Bisons are a pretty good match for the Thunders.
> 
> The news you refer to is the IAF's traditional 3:1ratio falling to around 2 or less to 1 but this is merely a temporary situation, in qualitative terms that IAF still has a clear edge along with in quantity.


@sancho @Abingdonboy This thread is now become a troll Thread give some negative ratings to save this thread Indian members will get that even if not troll In JF-17 thread


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## AMMAR Niaz Dawood

Abingdonboy said:


> Pure nonsense. The PAF has no answer for the MKI which the IAF operates in larger numbers than all your F-16s combined. The Mirage 2000s and MiG-29s are both being significantly upgraded which alone would be able to give the PAF's F-16 Blk 52s a run for their money. The MiG-21 Bisons are a pretty good match for the Thunders.
> 
> The news you refer to is the IAF's traditional 3:1ratio falling to around 2 or less to 1 but this is merely a temporary situation, in qualitative terms that IAF still has a clear edge along with in quantity.


I think now we are on the same page , AS your Last Two lines TRULY highlighted the REALITY , THAT 3:1 ratio was all that I was stressing on and I knew it that it was temporary and IAF is still heading pretty soon to overtake that RATIO .....Congratulations , TRUST me this was MEDIAs manipulation , I dont debate about something about which I dont know and this time I was misguided by the MEDIA , NO Offence

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## Dazzler

Abingdonboy said:


> Pure nonsense. The PAF has no answer for the MKI which the IAF operates in larger numbers than all your F-16s combined. The Mirage 2000s and MiG-29s are both being significantly upgraded which alone would be able to give the PAF's F-16 Blk 52s a run for their money. The MiG-21 Bisons are a pretty good match for the Thunders.
> 
> The news you refer to is the IAF's traditional 3:1ratio falling to around 2 or less to 1 but this is merely a temporary situation, in qualitative terms that IAF still has a clear edge along with in quantity.


what qualitative terms are those where IAF has edge? which technology is in their possession tjat PAF lacks? explain..

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## sancho

The best idea against useless posts (or @Dazzler factually totally wrong and if you find a propper thread for such a discussion I'm ready to correct your views), is to stick on topic and post new infos:



> *Rafale Deal Likely to Figure During French Foreign Minister's India Visit*
> 
> the multi-billion dollar Rafale combat aircraft deal, the Jaitapur nuclear power plant and climate change are expected to figure prominently during talks French Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius' will have with Indian leaders during his two-day visit here starting on Monday.
> 
> The two sides are also likely to discuss the over Rs. 20,000 crore Maitri surface-to-air missile system project alongside holding parleys on the regional and global security situation including Afghanistan, Iraq and Syria...



Rafale Deal Likely to Figure During French Foreign Minister's India Visit - NDTV




> *Eurofighter: new aerodynamics set for 2014 test flight*
> 
> Eurofighter will by year-end make is final proof-of-concept test flight on an aerodynamic modification kit that promises to improve the combat aircraft’s subsonic turn rate by 15%.
> 
> Adding leading edge root extensions and extended trailing edge flaps, and reshaping the side-of-cockpit ILS antennae covers as 70° delta strakes should improve the aircraft’s agility for close-quarters combat.
> 
> Laurie Hilditch, head of future capabilities at Eurofighter, says the modification kit should give the aircraft the sort of “knife-fight in a phone box” turning capability enjoyed by rivals such as Boeing’s F/A-18E/F or the Lockheed Martin F-16, without sacrificing the transonic and supersonic high-energy agility inherent to its delta wing-canard configuration...



Eurofighter: new aerodynamics set for 2014 test flight - 6/25/2014 - Flight Global

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## Dazzler

sancho said:


> The best idea against useless posts (or @Dazzler factually totally wrong and if you find a propper thread for such a discussion I'm ready to correct your views), is to stick on topic and post new infos:
> 
> 
> 
> Rafale Deal Likely to Figure During French Foreign Minister's India Visit - NDTV
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Eurofighter: new aerodynamics set for 2014 test flight - 6/25/2014 - Flight Global



i didnt drift the thread Mr. your compatriates did it.

regards


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## sancho

Dazzler said:


> i didnt drift the thread Mr. your compatriates did it.
> 
> regards



I didn't said you did, just that your post is full of mistakes and if you want to discuss it, we can do it, but in a more suitable thread.


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## Basel

@sancho after those modifications where EF will stand against Rafael?


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## Dazzler

sancho said:


> I didn't said you did, just that your post is full of mistakes and if you want to discuss it, we can do it, but in a more suitable thread.



your wish is granted

PAF vs. IAF fighter fleet technology comparison

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## Abingdonboy

Dazzler said:


> what qualitative terms are those where IAF has edge? which technology is in their possession tjat PAF lacks? explain..


Look no further than the MKI (superior to the F-16s in pretty much every aspect and present in greater numbers than your entire F-16 fleet combined), even the upgraded MiG-29s and Mirage 2000s would give your high end fighter (F-16 blk 52) a run for their money

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## Dazzler

Abingdonboy said:


> Look no further than the MKI (superior to the F-16s in pretty much every aspect and present in greater numbers than your entire F-16 fleet combined), even the upgraded MiG-29s and Mirage 2000s would give your high end fighter (F-16 blk 52) a run for their money




come here then

PAF vs. IAF fighter fleet technology comparison | Page 3


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## hari sud

One question to the webmaster, since I cannot find any other place to put it!

Why is this Forum operating under Pakistani Defence Forum, heading? What is wrong with this forum's original heading.

I am uncomfortable writing anything under Pakistani defence Forum heading. Why is it not being modified.


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## sancho

Basel said:


> @sancho after those modifications where EF will stand against Rafael?



Stand against Rafale? The EF LERX were planned as a possible upgrade for the EF and some tests were done, but so far no customer really wanted it, just as they didn't wanted TVC, since the EF is already highly capable in this field. The growth potential however is there and maybe needed in later stages, because it might add a credible ammount of weight, when AESA and new uprades will be added in the coming years.

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## Basel

@sancho I asked because many compare both in terms of capabilities.


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## sancho

hari sud said:


> One question to the webmaster, since I cannot find any other place to put it!



I would suggest this one:

Suggestions & Discussions

But if you are uncomfortable, wouldn't it be better to go to another forum?



Basel said:


> @sancho I asked because many compare both in terms of capabilities.



As said, it might has more to do with the coming changes of the EF, rather than countering Rafales capabilities and if they want to counter Rafale, they need to add AESA, CFTs and additional weapons first, since that are the keys to make EF really more capable.


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## Basel

@sancho what about air to air capabilities of both after upgrade of EF?


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## sancho

Basel said:


> @sancho what about air to air capabilities of both after upgrade of EF?


That depends on the performance if that feature is developed and available, far too early to get to conclusions now and it only adds to a certain area of A2A. Additions like METEOR and AESA will have a bigger effect here.

Gtg, the game has started.

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## halloweene

IMG_0393.JPG - Google Drive

pakistani officers at Eurosatory


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## atlssa

*Sukhoi-30MKI is India’s fallback fighter | Russia & India Report*
June 27, 2014

*Faced with a serious fighter crunch, the Indian Air Force is opting for more numbers of its proven war bird, the Flanker, to maintain air dominance.*






India’s Sukhoi-30 MKI fleet is currently pegged at 272 (including aircraft under order) but the 
number will clearly increase as HAL cranks up production. Source: APSource: AP​
The drawn out drama over the signing of the Rafale jet fighter contract means the Indian Air Force (IAF) will rely on its heavy hitter, the Sukhoi-30MKI, to boost its dwindling fighter fleet.

The 25-ton Su-30 – NATO reporting name Flanker – is the IAF’s elite fighter-bomber. Filling its low-end fighter needs will be the locally developed Tejas II light combat aircraft, while the Rafale is meant to straddle the middle tier as an intermediate fighter.

In 2012 the 4++ generation Rafale came out on top in India’s 10-year-long competition to supply 126 jet fighters to the IAF. However, two years later India and France are still haggling over key issues such as price – which has doubled to $20 billion – and production sharing.

The IAF has told the new government that Dassault Aviation, the maker of the Rafale jet, and Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), which will produce the aircraft in India, must put their delivery guarantees in writing before the MoD signs the contract, reports Defense News.

However, HAL is unwilling to give any written guarantees on the delivery schedule for the Indian-made Rafales, and instead wants Dassault to guarantee deliveries of the Indian-made aircraft, a condition the French have rejected.

If media reports that the contract will be finally inked in the last quarter of this year are true, then the first 18 Rafales in flyaway condition will arrive from France in 2016. The rest of the 102 – Indian made – aircraft won’t start rolling off HAL’s assembly lines until 2018.

In the backdrop of such uncertainty, the IAF has decided on the simple maneuver of buying more of the powerful – and proven – Flankers.

Additional Flankers also seem inevitable in view of the earlier than expected retirement of the venerable MiG-21 ad MiG-27 fleets. The last of the MiG-21 Type 77 – the oldest variant that was the IAF’s mainstay in the 1971 Indo-Pak War – was retired in January 2014, reports the New Indian Express. Two squadrons of Type-96 MiG-21s will revert to operational role from training and will continue to serve the force till 2015. The four squadrons of MiG-27s will be retired in a phased manner by 2016-2017.

Former air force chief N.A.K. Browne revealed how the IAF is juggling numbers and aircraft to maintain a minimum of 34 squadrons – below which India’s air defence will be dangerously compromised. “What’s going to happen is that at least in the 12th Plan which finishes in 2017 we will continue to maintain 34 squadrons….Right now we have 34 combat squadrons and in spite of these drawdowns of the MIG-21s, we are supplementing them with Su-30 squadrons.” He added the IAF will have “far greater capability than even what we have today”.

*Sukhoi nation*
The expansion of Flanker bases is another indication that India is cranking up production of its most versatile fighter. Its huge 3000 km range, 4.5 hours combat endurance and capacity for being refuelled mid-flight make the Flanker perfect for being stationed in bases at all corners of India’s vast landmass and even beyond. That also makes it the ideal “swing” fighter capable of being fielded in a two-front war involving Pakistan and China.

More than 100 Sukhois will be spread out across the country – in strategic air bases such as Pune, Maharashtra; Bhuj, Gujarat; Jodhpur, Rajasthan; Bhatinda and Halwara in Punjab; Sirsa, Haryana; Bareilly, Uttar Pradesh; Kalaikunda and Hashimara, West Bengal; Chabua and Tezpur, Assam; Thanjavur in Tamil Nadu; and in the distant Andaman & Nicobar Islands.

The increased Chinese naval activity in the Indian Ocean has also compelled the IAF to bolster its capability down south. The Sukhois, which will arrive in Thanjavur in 2015, will be just a few minutes flying distance from the Sri Lankan port of Hambantota, in which the Chinese have shown a keen interest.

The Sukhois that can be configured to drop freefall nuclear bombs are based at Bareilly, Tezpur, Halwara, Pune and Jodhpur.

The Sukhois are also being modified for reconnaissance. A handful of Su-30MKIs are being tasked with strategic surveillance along the India-Pakistan borders. Armed with Israeli reconnaissance pods, these fighter jets have the capability to look up to 300 km into enemy territory. These aircraft are based at Bhuj and Sirsa.

Officially, India’s Sukhoi-30 MKI fleet is currently pegged at 272 (including aircraft under order) but the number will clearly increase as HAL cranks up production. It is an impressive strength for such a high-end and expensive ($67 million to $79 million) weapons platform. This shows a keen sense of judgement by the IAF, which realises that 100 percent fleet utilisation is impossible and having a large number of aircraft around is the key to getting the job done.

“These aircraft will be the high end of India’s air power, and can be expected to remain in the force past 2030, and are competitive with or superior to top-end European fighters and American F-15 variants,” says Defense Industry Daily.

*Does India need the Rafale?*
To be sure, the primary reason for selecting the Rafale is to reduce dependence on one vendor country. Currently, Russia supplies more than 70 per cent of India’s defence requirements. The other objective is to acquire the full technology suite of a modern aircraft for local production. French technology is being pitched as the magic potion that will save the Tejas programme, while also providing a much-needed boost to the aerospace and defence electronics industries in India.

Also, having a medium fighter can be useful as the MiG-29 Fulcrums proved to be during the 1999 Kargil War, when the top cover it provided allowed the Indian MiG-21s and Mirage-2000s to strike at Pakistani positions with impunity. The presence of the Fulcrums kept away the Pakistan Air Force F-16 Falcons, which refused to engage with the IAF fighters. The Rafale is meant to perform in a similar role.

*Financial crunch*
However, forking out $20 billion to the French – at a time when ordinary Indians are being asked to brace for tough economic decisions by the government – seems overly extravagant. If technology absorption and diversification are indeed the driving motives, India should be able to do both and save money by cutting the order by, say, half.

It seems counterintuitive that Indians – who are legendary or rather notorious for their bargaining skills – are not able to drive down the Rafale’s price to Flanker levels. The Sukhoi-30MKI is an excellent bargaining chip India has, and New Delhi must learn how to play its air ace well.

Sukhoi-30MKI is India’s fallback fighter | Russia & India Report

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## Indus Falcon

*French Minister's Visit to India To Feature Talks on Rafale Sale*
Jun. 27, 2014 -By VIVEK RAGHUVANSHI

*NEW DELHI*— Discussions to resolve contract differences on India’s planned purchase of Dassault Rafale fighters for its $12 billion Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) program are likely to top the agenda when French Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius begins a two-day visit to New Delhi on June 30.

A diplomat in the French Embassy said they hope for an early conclusion of the contract for the Rafale, which has been negotiated for more than two years. India’s Ministry of Defense (MoD) and Dassault officials have held dozens of meetings to iron out issues relating to transfer of technology, production processes and cost of the Rafale to be produced in India.

MoD sources said the negotiations will take “some more time,” and the French minister is unlikely to return to Paris with a firm commitment on the final time frame to sign the contract.

The Indian Air Force plans to buy 126 fighters to replace aging Russian-made MiG aircraft.

The French minister will also discuss Indo-French nuclear cooperation. France has submitted a tender for two 1,650-megawatts reactors for the Jaitapur nuclear site in the central Indian state of Maharashtra.

The French diplomat said they want to learn the views of the new government, led by Narendra Modi, on a nuclear liability law and how it could affect the French nuclear companies. The Indian Parliament framed a law in 2010 on nuclear liability that puts heavy financial responsibility on suppliers and contractors in case of an accident.

French Minister's Visit to India To Feature Talks on Rafale Sale | Defense News | defensenews.com

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## PARIKRAMA

*India's Rafale Fighter Jet Deal in Final Lap, Awaits Government's Nod*
All India | Written by Nitin Gokhale | Updated: June 29, 2014 10:50 IST







The Air Force currently only has 32 squadrons


*New Delhi: * The Indian Air Force or IAF may lose its traditional conventional edge against Pakistan if the contract to buy 126 Rafale medium multi-role combat aircraft or MMRCA is not clinched immediately, senior IAF officials told Defence Minister Arun Jaitley at an extensive briefing recently. (Defence Minister Briefed on Indian Air Force's Operational Preparedness)

French aerospace major Dassault Aviation had won the contract to supply the fighter jets to the IAF in 2012. 

The Air Force, which ideally requires 44 squadrons but can manage with 39, currently only has 32 squadrons; 12 of them of the near-obsolete MiG-21s. 

Mr Jaitley had only one query: what is the cost of the contract? 

*The IAF's answer -- Rs. 100,000 crore spread over 10 years *-- i*mmediately evoked a positive reaction from Mr Jaitley, sources in the Ministry of Defence told NDTV.* (Dassault Hopes to Sign Rafale India Deal This Year)

The enthused IAF brass now says that if the government gives the final clearance, the massive, and in many ways the first-of-its-kind contract, may be clinched in the next six months. 

Three sub-sets of the complicated deal have been completed, say sources. The committees that were in charge of Offsets, Maintenance, Transfer of Technology have concluded their work; it took them over two years to prepare documents running into thousands of pages. These include details of work share between Dassault and India's Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd or HAL, liabilities and costs to maintain and run the 126 jets. (A big step in India's Rafale jet deal with France)

Over 41 articles in the defence procurement procedure or DPP have been taken on board while arriving at the final documentation. HAL has been designated the lead domestic production agency. 18 of the 126 jets will be produced in France and the remaining 108 will be manufactured at the production unit in India. (Depleted fighter fleet is worrisome, says Air Chief)

But the committee responsible for costs and contract is yet to finalise its report. Once the deal officially receives clearance, this part of the contract may be ready for signing in less than two months, say sources. (France sees first Rafale jet deliveries to India by 2016)

Meanwhile, many of Rafale's competitors are lobbying hard against the contract and running down the fighter aircraft over various counts, including 'prohibitive' costs. 

But the IAF top brass is clear that the process to buy the MMRCA is irreversible, notwithstanding a view that the IAF must induct the HAL-made Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas instead of buying the expensive Rafale. 

IAF officials point out that the Tejas is yet to receive final operational clearance despite the home-grown fighter aircraft being in the making for over 30 years. As per revised timelines, the first full Tejas squadron in the Initial Operational Clearance configuration will be in place only by 2016-2017. 

"We have been hand-holding the LCA for a long time and will continue to support it. But it is not a replacement for a medium, multirole fighter aircraft. Its reach is barely 200 km while we need an aircraft with a reach of at least 1000-km if we have to pose any challenge in the Tibet Autonomous Region, where India expects a major threat to its air combat power in case of a conflict with China," said a top IAF officer.

Meanwhile, the Rafale deal is likely to be on top of the agenda during French Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius's two-day visit to India, which starts today.

The question now is whether prime minister Narendra Modi and defence minister Arun Jaitley will also treat the deal as a matter of top priority. 



India's Rafale Fighter Jet Deal in Final Lap, Awaits Government's Nod - NDTV

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## cloud_9

Double post.


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## Abingdonboy

majesticpankaj said:


> Mr Jaitley had only one query: what is the cost of the contract?
> 
> The IAF's answer -- Rs. 100,000 crore spread over 10 years -- immediately evoked a positive reaction from Mr Jaitley, sources in the Ministry of Defence told NDTV.





majesticpankaj said:


> The enthused IAF brass now says that if the government gives the final clearance, the massive, and in many ways the first-of-its-kind contract, may be clinched in the next six months.





majesticpankaj said:


> Meanwhile, many of Rafale's competitors are lobbying hard against the contract and running down the fighter aircraft over various counts, including 'prohibitive' costs.





majesticpankaj said:


> But the IAF top brass is clear that the process to buy the MMRCA is irreversible,





majesticpankaj said:


> Meanwhile, the Rafale deal is likely to be on top of the agenda during French Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius's two-day visit to India, which starts today.




India's Rafale Fighter Jet Deal in Final Lap, Awaits Government's Nod


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## atlssa

*DRDO's claims on Light Combat Aircraft export unrealistic: Former IAF officers - Firstpost*
Jun 29, 2014

New Delhi: DRDO's claim about being in a position to export Light Combat Aircraft Tejas has been dismissed as premature and unrealistic by former top IAF officers who want it to focus on getting the indigenous fighter plane inducted into own air force first. "It is good to have ambitions but there are several miles to go before we can talk or think about exporting LCA. It is too early to talk about this as it has to be fist inducted into IAF before we take a decision on selling these planes," former IAF chief Air Chief Marshal S Krishnaswamy said.

He was reacting to DRDO's claim that it can sell light-weight multirole LCA to friendly foreign countries in future. Krishnaswamy said DRDO and the country will have to be "realistic" as for exporting the aircraft. The country will have to make huge investments to create a new and big production line for mass production of these aircraft, he said.The development of the home-grown fighter aircraft, which recently got 'Initial Operational Clearance' by IAF, has already taken 30 years at an estimated cost of over Rs 17,000 crore.

However, the induction is still awaited as IAF has not yet given the 'Final Operation Clearance'. Production of the aircraft is estimated to push up the cost further. Krishnaswamy said when it comes to exporting combat aircraft or helicopters, the seller has to provide long-term fleet support to the customer countries and "DRDO has no exposure to such fleet management practices."

"We had exported some choppers to a country and one of them crashed during the national day parade of that particular nation. So, we should first focus on developing the aircraft for our own requirements and then think of other things," he said.





DRDO's claims to export the LAC Tejas are unrealistic, says former top IAF brass. 
Representational Image. AFP​
Krishnaswamy said the first indigenously built bomber HF-24 Marut aircraft had to go through several modifications due to problems experienced in it even several years after it was inducted in IAF.

"Moreover, you may talk about exports but the point is that who will buy such an aircraft which has taken so long for being developed and there are so many choices available for countries to buy such planes," he said.

Former Deputy Chief of Air Staff Air Marshal (retd) N V Tyagi said as a concept, the idea of exporting LCA is good as it will create revenue but one must realise that any foreign customer will buy it only after seeing its performance in the Indian Air Force, where it is yet to be inducted.

"To show its performance, it has to serve in the force for quite some time and only then, one should start thinking about exporting it," he said.

The LCA programme was initiated in the early 1980s but it has seen several delays and time and cost over-runs which have led to the postponement of phasing out of the vintage Russia-origin MiG 21 combat aircraft from the air force.

As per government plans, six squadrons of LCA would be manufactured of which two would be LCA MK-I while the remaining would be the MK-II version. A squadron comprises around 20 aircraft. DRDO has also contracted for American GE-414 engines which would provide a stronger thrust to LCA-MK II whereas the initial two squadrons will be powered by the GE-404 power plants.

The first squadron of the fighter plane would be deployed at the Sulur air base in Tamil Nadu and the later ones are expected to replace MiG 21 squadrons at their respective bases.

DRDO's claims on Light Combat Aircraft export unrealistic: Former IAF officers - Firstpost


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## halloweene

Agent_47 said:


>

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## atlssa

MoD mulls downsizing Rafale contract | Latest News & Updates at Daily News & Analysis
Wednesday, 2 July 2014
Pradip R. Sagar

As the French foreign minister Laurent Fabius met Indian political leadership, including prime minister Narendra Modi, pressing for sealing the multi-billion Rafale combat aircraft deal, New Delhi has raised serious concerns over the cost escalation of the fighter jet deal. Struggling to pay the heavy cost of the deal, the ministry of defence (MoD) is considering an option of down-sizing the deal from 126 to 80 fighter jets.

According to officials, who are privy to the development, defence ministry has asked the French government to revise the price structure because the deal has gone much beyond the expected lines. And during course of negotiations with the Dassault, which manufactures Rafale jets, the defence ministry has been asking for price revision. Due to difference of opinion, the cost negotiation committee, which was set up in February 2012 to work out the modalities for the deal, has not been able reach conclusion and the committee is yet to submit its report to the ministry.

Officials claim that in 2007, when the tender was floated, the cost of the programme was $12 billion. When the lowest bidder was declared in January 2012, the cost of the deal shot up to $18 billion (Rs1.08 lakh crore). And now with inclusion of transfer of technology, life cycle cost and creating assembly line, the deal has virtually cross whopping $20 billion.

A top official told dna that if the government signs the deal in the next couple of months, it has to pay advance payment of at least $1.5-2 billion (Rs.9- 12,000 crore) to Dassault. And for the newly-elected BJP-led NDA government will have to compromise on other defence equipment, as major chunk of defence budget will go in for the advance payment. And it is also believed to understand that new government is also not comfortable with the life cycle cost method adopted by the previous UPA-II government and even a senior BJP leader and former finance minister Yashwant Sinha had objected to the life cycle criteria.

"Cost escalations and disagreements over production sharing with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited(HAL) has led to the delay in freezing the contract. French have been asked to re-look at the price factor,"said an officer.

IAF officials maintain even if the deal is signed by the end this year, first lot of Rafale aircraft will arrive India by 2017. And by the time, IAF has to phase out its MiG 21 squadrons.

The air force is seeking to replace its ageing MiG-21s with a modern fighter and MMRCA fits between India's hig-end Sukhoi-30MKIs and its low-end Tejas LCA lightweight fighter. The IAF has a sanctioned strength of 45 fighter jet squadrons. However, it only has 30 squadrons operational as old aircraft have been retired.

Eighteen of the 126 planes will be purchased directly from Dassault, while Hindustan Aeronautics Limited will manufacture the other 108 under a licence, at an upcoming facility in Bangalore.


MoD mulls downsizing Rafale contract | Latest News & Updates at Daily News & Analysis


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## halloweene

Talked with an executive yesterday nite. Pure BS. And as he mentioned, it would be stupid as there is a ramping up of indian input in every indian built Rafales so last ones will be near 100% indian made...

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## Dazzler

halloweene said:


> And as he mentioned, it would be stupid as there is a ramping up of indian input in every indian built Rafales so last ones will be near 100% indian made...



last part is wishful thinking at best.


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## Gessler

Dazzler said:


> last part is wishful thinking at best.



Why is that.


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## rockstarIN

Gessler said:


> Why is that.



Coz he knew better than HAL, MoD and Dassault about MMRCA contract terms.


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## Dazzler

rockstarIN said:


> Coz he knew better than HAL, MoD and Dassault about MMRCA contract terms.



because i knkw french practices, if you think they are gonna transfer near 100 percent tech to HAL, dream on. even if they transfered 70 percent, HAL would be very lucky. lastly, engine tech transfer is next to impossible cuz western countries usually dont mess with engine tech transfer stuff. M88 is latest production version by snecma, they will not transfer enough tech tokeep HAL independant of themselves or other french contractors.

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## greatone

Dazzler said:


> because i knkw french practices, if you think they are gonna transfer near 100 percent tech to HAL, dream on. even if they transfered 70 percent, HAL would be very lucky. lastly, engine tech transfer is next to impossible cuz western countries usually dont mess with engine tech transfer stuff. M88 is latest production version by snecma, they will not transfer enough tech tokeep HAL independant of themselves or other french contractors.



I don't think you really understand the meaning of Transfer of Technology Mr. Think Tank....

Getting ToT is like getting the final answer in a math problem e.g x= 12
Nobody transfers the process employed to get the final answer, every nation has to figure it out by itself.

ToT is used to prevent reliance on foriegn vendors in times of war.It is not a substitute for domestic R& D.

For example, India is manufacturing very high grade SCBs(single crystal blades) for MKI engine but is yet to master the same tech for indigenous Kaveri engine.


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## Dazzler

greatone said:


> I don't think you really understand the meaning of Transfer of Technology Mr. Think Tank....



explain it plz..


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## janon

Dazzler said:


> explain it plz..


Transfer of manufacturing technology. It means we could manufacture everything in house (by the end). It doesn't mean that HAL or GTRE would be in a position to develop world class engines of their own. Building it from raw material stage, that's all.


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## greatone

Dazzler said:


> explain it plz..



Please see the edit.


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## Dazzler

janon said:


> Transfer of manufacturing technology. It means we could manufacture everything in house (by the end). It doesn't mean that HAL or GTRE would be in a position to develop world class engines of their own. Building it from raw material stage, that's all.



i suggest google, there is no such thing as "everything" in a ToT arrangement.


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## janon

Dazzler said:


> i suggest google, there is no such thing as "everything" in a ToT arrangement.


Are you sure google would be the best tool to learn such a thing?

BTW we have built mig-21s and jaguars completely in house, although they were developed in SU and Europe.

I don't know if we can do the same with Rafale, but at least that's the idea.


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## sancho

atlssa said:


> MoD mulls downsizing Rafale contract | Latest News & Updates at Daily News & Analysis



Not a credible report, because reducing the number of units would not reduce the costs, since unit cost would be higher, the licence production with 46 less fighters would be less worth it as well, especially since the French would reduce industrial benefits of course. But I guess you see why I said that this is a crucial phase, it can swing in different directions now, simply by the fact that we have a new government. So as I said even before the elections, it all depends on the priorities of the new government.

Priority on indingenous development => cancelling MMRCA and diverting funds to LCA and FGFA (maybe AMCA) developments
Priority on getting the best fighter for IAF => signing Rafale deal
Priotity on getting the best cost / benefit ratio according to the original RFP => signing Rafale deal
Priotity on getting the best cost / benefit ratio with the delivery delays => sign EF deal
Priority of fast deliveries to replace Migs => EF T3A's as a stop gap and T3B's in the licence production
Priority for more industrial benefits and manufacturing => joint developments with EF consortium and participation in T3B upgrade




halloweene said:


> Talked with an executive yesterday nite. Pure BS. And as he mentioned, it would be stupid as there is a ramping up of indian input in every indian built Rafales so last ones will be near 100% indian made...



Which only means that the last Rafales could be completelly build in India, not that it actually would have much Indian input in form of Indian technology.



Dazzler said:


> last part is wishful thinking at best.





Dazzler said:


> stay on topic, stop ranting or get reported !



I guess that works for you as well, doesn't it?

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## sancho



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## $@rJen

sancho said:


>



Nice paint job


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## sancho

sarjenprabhu said:


> Nice paint job



Yes from the Tiger Meet exercise and the Germans clearly had the upper hand over the French with the paintjob this year and lets hope they will beat France in the World Cup today too! 

Greets to @halloweene

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## sancho

> *A significant visit*
> 
> French Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius has concluded a substantial India visit which can help lift some of the barriers that may be blocking the emergence of a full-blown strategic partnership between the two countries. Free from verbiage, Mr. Fabius’ visit had a hard-nosed businesslike feel to it. Cash-strapped France seemed focussed on trading some of the blue-chip kernels of its hi-tech industry. India, on its part, looking to bolster its military preparedness, energy security and international profile, was prepared to calibrate a hard bargain. The recognition by New Delhi and Paris that a win-win outcome was indeed possible seemed to have yielded significant progress during the visit towards clinching the multibillion dollar Rafale aircraft deal, and the stalled contract for two French nuclear reactors. With a capacity to generate 1,650 megawatts of power each, a breakthrough in the deal for the two reactors could clear the path for the establishment of four additional reactors of similar capacity at the Jaitapur site in Maharashtra. An installed capacity of nearly 10,000 megawatts would not only boost French nuclear commerce, but also make a vital contribution to satisfying India’s energy hunger.
> 
> In dealing with the French, *the Indian side has made it clear that it is not interested in a pure buyer-seller relationship with France in the hi-tech domain*. As a result, complex negotiations are under way — both on the Rafale and the European Pressurised Reactors (EPR) — that would not only give India the final product, *but also implant frontier technology within the country through transfers of state-of-the-art know-how*. The induction of the 126 Rafale fighter jets would also help cement the air-dominance doctrine of the Indian Air Force (IAF), which has already benefited from the inductions of the Russian Su-30 MKI multi-role planes and other advanced platforms. Mr. Fabius’ arrival in New Delhi has provided an opportunity to quickly finalise the Indo-French nuclear deal, which is possible if the two parties arrive at a formula that would lower the costs of atomic power generation at Jaitapur. During talks, India has demanded greater “localisation,” which would expand involvement of domestic industry in the project, as well as provide greater scientific and technical exposure to Indian personnel to Light Water Reactor (LWR) technology that the French have mastered. At a political level, the Minister’s visit has provided New Delhi an opportunity to advance its ties with continental Europe, which revolves around a Franco-German core. This is significant, as Europe, despite undergoing a rapid political and economic transition, would continue to remain a major player in a multipolar world, which India needs to engage vigorously.



A significant visit - The Hindu


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## Dazzler

sancho said:


> Not a credible report, because reducing the number of units would not reduce the costs, since unit cost would be higher, the licence production with 46 less fighters would be less worth it as well, especially since the French would reduce industrial benefits of course. But I guess you see why I said that this is a crucial phase, it can swing in different directions now, simply by the fact that we have a new government. So as I said even before the elections, it all depends on the priorities of the new government.
> 
> Priority on indingenous development => cancelling MMRCA and diverting funds to LCA and FGFA (maybe AMCA) developments
> Priority on getting the best fighter for IAF => signing Rafale deal
> Priotity on getting the best cost / benefit ratio according to the original RFP => signing Rafale deal
> Priotity on getting the best cost / benefit ratio with the delivery delays => sign EF deal
> Priority of fast deliveries to replace Migs => EF T3A's as a stop gap and T3B's in the licence production
> Priority for more industrial benefits and manufacturing => joint developments with EF consortium and participation in T3B upgrade
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Which only means that the last Rafales could be completelly build in India, not that it actually would have much Indian input in form of Indian technology.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I guess that works for you as well, doesn't it?



not more than your fantasy parades


----------



## GORKHALI

Dazzler said:


> not more than your fantasy parades


But why your getting gasm for this.....


----------



## atlssa

sancho said:


> But I guess you see why I said that this is a crucial phase



Definitely I Do!


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## MilSpec

Dazzler said:


> IAF sqdrns are dwindling = Fact


true, but Platforms like Mig21 and Mig27 are being retired and being replaced with Su 30 MKI's, which would you rather face.



Dazzler said:


> No major fighter induction since MKI = Fact


Are you sure about that, last I heard 55 Mig29K's "Fighters"were added to IN (All BVR, All multi-role), additionally 17-19 MKI being added every year since the last decade, ie more than the total JF17+F16 strength of pakistan


Dazzler said:


> Rafale deal is still in limbo, atleast by year end = Fact


True, but Mig29UPG is on track, so is Super Sukhoi, Mirage 2K upg, mig27 DARE, Jaguar DARIN III. When we acknowledge the fact that MLU upgrde by turkey add's significant strength to PAF F16's, may be you might attribute some advantages of the silly upgrades we do too. 



Dazzler said:


> PAF has 50 jf-17, 76 F-16 (18 blk 52+mlu), some are yet to go through mlu though but process continues, around 150 4th gen fighters and counting, more jordanian mlus are likely to join as PAF is analysing more pieces there.


Analysis is good, We are trying with outmost humility to get the best out of Rafale. The attempt is the same. 



Dazzler said:


> PAF crashes are still much less compared to IAF crashes, just check the crash thread for facts, IAF until recently crashing even MKIs and Mirage 2000s. PAF mirage is too old to operate apart of 80 odd Rose upgraded ones which have plenty of life left, kodus to sealed Libyan engines and spares.


Well our airforce is significantly larger in size, our sorties are much higher than that of PAF, and our trainers have had issues for a long time, and this is one area where we do need to work on.



Dazzler said:


> Lastly, IAF does not have 200 MKIs in service, and please stop making a fuss on MKI, it is a BIG machine with everything big about but yet to be proven in the battlefield. Indians are proud on BARS radar, without knowing that a PESA, not matter how good it is, is not an AESA. BARS is a huge unit, the amount of radiation it throws when operating on full, even on average power, it is detectable from a long range.


Does PAF has an AESA radar? What are you proud of then? The fact of the matter is N011 modes are still classified, having worked on the aircraft, I have no clue about it's specs, so till then you can rely on open source information and hopefully your air force does too....



Dazzler said:


> Remember, radar, when working, radiates. Through internet and Russian sites, members and some retired personnel on f-16.net etc, give figures that it can detect fighter size (5sqm) at around 130-140km at best, so where is the advantage? There is none.



Sure.... I hope PAF believes the same internet russian site....There is no advantage, for MKI will be toast against every fighter jets PAF can field, right...

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## Dazzler

i


sandy_3126 said:


> true, but Platforms like Mig21 and Mig27 are being retired and being replaced with Su 30 MKI's, which would you rather face.
> 
> 
> Are you sure about that, last I heard 55 Mig29K's "Fighters"were added to IN (All BVR, All multi-role), additionally 17-19 MKI being added every year since the last decade, ie more than the total JF17+F16 strength of pakistan
> 
> True, but Mig29UPG is on track, so is Super Sukhoi, Mirage 2K upg, mig27 DARE, Jaguar DARIN III. When we acknowledge the fact that MLU upgrde by turkey add's significant strength to PAF F16's, may be you might attribute some advantages of the silly upgrades we do too.
> 
> 
> Analysis is good, We are trying with outmost humility to get the best out of Rafale. The attempt is the same.
> 
> 
> Well our airforce is significantly larger in size, our sorties are much higher than that of PAF, and our trainers have had issues for a long time, and this is one area where we do need to work on.
> 
> 
> Does PAF has an AESA radar? What are you proud of then? The fact of the matter is N011 modes are still classified, having worked on the aircraft, I have no clue about it's specs, so till then you can rely on open source information and hopefully your air force does too....
> 
> 
> 
> Sure.... I hope PAF believes the same internet russian site....There is no advantage, for MKI will be toast against every fighter jets PAF can field, right...


is it true the order is reduced?



GORKHALI said:


> But why your getting gasm for this.....



still waiting for your answers in arjun II thread


----------



## manojb

halloweene said:


> IMG_0393.JPG - Google Drive
> 
> pakistani officers at Eurosatory


in that picture pak brigadier bardar hayt a defence attache with pak embasy in china, is carrying letter dated May 2014 from GHQ pak.. letter says "letter of interest - Tank t-99/Vt-3" , Pak is planning to buy 300 tanks from china !! . @RAW
@Storm Force 
sirji photo ko pose dete waqt jara dhyan se, aaj kal cell phone camera has 12MP resolution


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## cloud_9

janon said:


> Transfer of manufacturing technology. It means we could manufacture everything in house (by the end). It doesn't mean that HAL or GTRE would be in a position to develop world class engines of their own. Building it from raw material stage, that's all.


AFAIK Core technologies are never transferred in TOT.

We can make engines with TOT but we won't be able to make another one with different specs for that you will have to reverse engineer the engine.

TOT is like a casting mould...You can make x number of copies with that mould but you don't really know how to modify or tweak that mould to meet your requirements.


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## greatone

cloud_9 said:


> TOT is like a casting mould...You can make x number of copies with that mould but you don't really know how to modify or tweak that mould to meet your requirements.



But we can compare the French mold with Russian mold to gauge the similarities and differences in their approaches towards solving the same problem


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## MilSpec

cloud_9 said:


> TOT is like a casting mould...You can make x number of copies with that mould but you don't really know how to modify or tweak that mould to meet your requirements.



Not entirely true. It depends on nature of ToT, during ToT for Mig21, all subsystem dfmea and Pfmea were transferred to HAL, For MKI there was predetermined Phase I,II and III planned. The company I currently work for has transferred technologies for multiple products to our subsidiary plants in brazil and china, and we have achieved 100% ToT. At the end of day it, has to do with the complexity of technology, sustenance of certain capabilities, ability of local industries to sustain certain process etc. Feasibility evaluation and gap analysis are the backbones of technology transfer.

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## greatone

Similarities between MMRCA and the deal of the 20th century are mind boggling!
I wouldn't be surprised if IAF had looked towards this deal while designing the MMRCA tender.


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## cloud_9

I'm not into aero industry and got little blue about the standard practices followed in typical TOT contracts.

But transferring tech to subsidiaries is all together different scenario than the one we have on hand.

But it all depends on what they are transferring and that will dictate the clauses of TOT.But a general observation is that nobody transfers there core/latest/cutting edge tech to third parties.So it will all depend on what role is given to Indian companies.


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## sancho

cloud_9 said:


> *But a general observation is that nobody transfers there core/latest/cutting edge tech to third parties*.So it will all depend on what role is given to Indian companies.



Unless you have to win the deal! We know that the RFP basically says 50% ToT, but that doesn't meant core techs of course. That's why even US fighters that were restricted to not divert any core radar or EW techs, were able to fulfill the ToT requirements. BUT, that was far too less to be shortlisted, because Russians and Europeans offered far better ToT packages "including" core techs!
We know from EF and Rafale officials that high radar ToT and source codes would be provided (Dassault stated full ToT of the radar). Halloween has stated that Snecma might divert up to 100% engine techs to Indian counterparts. We also know that Thales would divert the FSO production, most likely even with the IRST to Samtel under ToT. So besides the normal ToT of airframe parts, the French (and most likely the EF consortium too) do offer a credible ammount of core techs, which shows why the move from MRCA to M-MRCA is so important for India and also explain why only these 2 fighter were shortlisted.


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## cloud_9

The only positive outcome from this deal would be upgradation of the shop floor and the increase in efficiency of the org's that will be feeling with the production.

By giving radar tech......You mean they will sell us the technology ?


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## sancho

cloud_9 said:


> By giving radar tech......You mean they will sell us the technology ?



Recap:



> Briefing Indian media representatives at its Champs-Elysées, Paris, headquarters Dassault Aviation's senior vice president for military sales, JPHP Chabriol, said, ''When we talk about technology transfer, we mean full technology transfer and not in bits and pieces.''
> 
> ''The way we work, we first have to obtain clearance of the government before putting in our proposal. If we win the order, we can begin work on transferring technology from day one - unlike our competition,'' he added.
> Critically for India, the transfer-of-technology (T-o-T) would include that of a state-of-the-art Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar that would provide Rafale the ability to also function as a close battlefield support airborne warning and control system (AWACS), apart from its designed function as a fighter. The AESA radar T-o-T would also include transfer of software source code, according to Chabriol.
> 
> This is a matter of great concern for India, or any country, that seeks T-o-T of sensitive equipment. Lack of access to the source code would not allow a country to re-programme a radar or any sensitive equipment should it so wish.



domain-b.com : Dassault ups the ante with full technology transfer for Rafale

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## atlssa

*Modi Should End His Own Honeymoon - Bloomberg View*
Jul 6, 2014 6:00 PM EDT
By Swaminathan S. Anklesaria Aiyar




India's Narendra Modi would be smart to disappoint supporters with his first budget. 
Photographer: Raj K Raj/Hindustan Times via Getty Images​In India, a new government's first post-election budget is usually a time to hand out rewards -- freebies and tax cuts for the ruling party's loyal supporters. This might seem like good politics as well as good manners. But if Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi wants to meet the high expectations that markets have set for him, he needs to take a different path when he presents his budget on July 10.

In fact, India's troubled finances are going to require two tough budgets in a row. At 7 to 9 percent, the combined fiscal deficit of the central and state governments has been unsustainably high for years. Blame for this can be laid upon the previous Congress Party-led government, which produced two soft budgets after being elected for a second term in 2009. The ruling coalition had already slashed taxes in 2008 to combat the fiscal crisis, and it decided to go slow in rolling these back. It increased subsidies for oil, fertilizers and food. It announced big increases in government support prices for crops, helping farmers but stoking food inflation.

At first, this spending spree stimulated the economy. Gross domestic product grew by 8.6 percent in 2009-2010 and 8.9 percent in 2010-2011. But a slowdown inevitably followed, exacerbated by the global downturn. Meanwhile, high fiscal deficits helped stoke consumer price inflation of 8 to 10 percent for several years. The central bank raised interest rates, but these hit production without curbing prices. Rating agencies threatened to downgrade the country's debt, and the government responded with savage cuts in capital spending. At the same time, the threat of corruption investigations paralyzed decision making, so project approvals froze. Result: GDP growth was almost halved, to 4.6 and 4.7 percent respectively, in the Congress Party's last two years in power before Modi's blowout victory.

The lesson for Modi is clear: If you start with soft budgets, you will win only temporary popularity. Then you'll have to pay the price in the second half of your term, exactly when fast growth is needed to ensure your re-election.

Modi is enjoying a honeymoon with voters and political supporters now. Cutting it short could be the best antidote against a divorce down the line. That means disappointing all sorts of constituencies that contributed to the win. One of Modi’s party allies in the southern state of Seemandhra, for instance, promised during the campaign to waive repayment of bank loans made to farmers and self-help groups. The local party now wants Modi to help pay for its foolish pledge. The prime minister should refuse. His own budget is under strain, and besides, such brazen favoritism to one state would explode all his claims to good governance. Loan waivers reward defaulters and make honest repayers look foolish. This will encourage willful default in the future, weakening the entire rural financial system.

The core support for Modi's party comes from the Indian middle class. So, the news media are full of speculation that his finance minister, Arun Jaitley, will reward these voters by raising the income tax exemption limit to 500,000 rupees ($8,384) per year from 200,000 rupees ($3,354). This would be fiscal suicide. Instead, the new government should focus on plugging loopholes, reducing the huge array of existing tax exemptions and exceptions, and improving tax administration.

Fuel subsidies account for almost 1.5 percent of GDP. They are not even targeted at the poor or needy, benefiting mostly big farmers, the middle class and owners of luxury diesel cars. Troubles in the Middle East threaten to push global prices (and hence Indian budget subsidies) even higher. Modi needs to raise the government-designated price of oil products such as diesel and kerosene immediately and phase out price controls completely within two years.

Modi’s election platform promised massive new spending on infrastructure and health. Where will all this money come from? Private infrastructure companies cannot be the solution: Most are deep in the red, unable to pay their bank debts. Indeed, the swelling tide of bad debts threatens the viability of banks themselves. State-owned banks, which account for 70 percent of all banking, need almost 6 trillion rupees of fresh capital by 2018 to meet the new Basel norms. But New Delhi lacks cash for recapitalization.

In sum, the situation calls for tough decisions and stringent budget discipline. This must be accompanied by good policies and a slashing of red tape to revive economic growth. Only then should Modi embark on his promised infrastructure spending spree. This approach will disappoint his gung-ho supporters in the short run. But it will yield dividends when Modi has to face the voters again.

Modi Should End His Own Honeymoon - Bloomberg View

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## sancho

> *George Osborne: India has ‘some very difficult neighbours’*
> 
> George Osborne risked causing a diplomatic stir today by backing Britain selling weapons to India to defend itself against “some very difficult neighbours”.
> 
> The Chancellor did not identify which countries he was referring to but India has borders with Pakistan, Afghanistan, China, Nepal, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Bhutan and Burma. India and Pakistan have clashed for decades over territory in the Kashmir region...
> 
> ...He stressed he wanted India to be able to defend itself with the “very best of the British defence industry”.
> 
> London is hoping a stalled deal for India to buy 126 French Rafale fighter jets may yet collapse. That could open the door to a rival deal to sell the Eurofighter jet, built partly in Britain.


George Osborne: India has ‘some very difficult neighbours’ - Politics - News - London Evening Standard




> *UK to Strengthen Economic Ties with India
> *
> British finance minister George Osborne and foreign secretary William Hague kick off a two-day visit to India today that will aim to strengthen economic ties between the two countries and enhance bilateral cooperation in defense and infrastructure development...
> 
> ...In infrastructure and defense, Osborne is likely to discuss the potential for increased British investment in the construction of the Delhi-Mumbai Industrial Corridor (DMIC) and lay the groundwork for India’s possible purchase of the Eurofighter jet (partially constructed in Britain) after a deal for 126 French Rafale fighters stalled last year...


UK to Strengthen Economic Ties with India - India Briefing News

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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> after a deal for 126 French Rafale fighters stalled last year...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> UK to Strengthen Economic Ties with India - India Briefing News
Click to expand...

This is such nonsensical phrasing- the way it is worded makes out the deal is in trouble when there is no such indication of such.

George Osbourne's discussions on the matter are nothing special, every visiting minister/head of state from a EFT consortium nation had taken this up with their Indian counterparts during bilateral discussions- it is more out of protocol, hope and expectation than out of any tangible belief these talks will lead to the EFT's sale to India. 


The assertion he is "laying the ground work" for the EFT' sale to India is utterly farcical. India has shown zero interest in exploring another option beyond the Rafale. It is either Rafale or nothing- the EFT and the Gripen's chances are precisely 0.

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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> This is such nonsensical phrasing- the way it is worded makes out the deal is in trouble when there is no such indication of such.
> 
> George Osbourne's discussions on the matter are nothing special, every visiting minister/head of state from a EFT consortium nation had taken this up with their Indian counterparts during bilateral discussions- it is more out of protocol, hope and expectation than out of any tangible belief these talks will lead to the EFT's sale to India.
> 
> 
> The assertion he is "laying the ground work" for the EFT' sale to India is utterly farcical. India has shown zero interest in exploring another option beyond the Rafale. It is either Rafale or nothing- the EFT and the Gripen's chances are precisely 0.



It doesn't say that the deal is in trouble, just that there is no deal yet and that is the important point! That and the fact that a new government is in charge, is enough for them to make a new approach, much beyond the normal discussions as you think and I expect the same to happen when PM Modi is in Germany.
The fact is, the new government has not stated anything that would make Rafale as their only choice and that is the straw the EF consortium / partners will try to use. If they really get a chance is another question and needs to be seen if we finally get an idea about the defence policies. Till then, the deal is more open than it was before the elections and for India that surely isn't a bad thing.

P.S. It seems as the British minister was more successful in fixing deals btw:

Indian Air Force News & Discussions | Page 180

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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> P.S. It seems as the British minister was more successful in fixing deals btw:
> 
> Indian Air Force News & Discussions | Page 180


Pretty irrelevant don't you think sir? That sale had been on the cards for a LONG time and anyway the French foreign Minister also signed some deals when he was in India, didn't he? As I say though, these are all irrelevant signals that don't point to any thing one way or the other regarding the MMRCA.

I'm more optimistic for the Rafale's chances than I had been immediately after Modi had been elected. I had taken on board what you had said in the lead up to elections vis a vis Modi could look to expanding the pie for the likes of Ambani/Reliance, look more at other options (EFT for e.g) , and such, I had also been seriously concerned about the price escalation which Modi might take issue with but it is reported Jaitley was very receptive to the $16BN spread out over a decade costs. From all I've read (from credible sources) it seems Modi, Jaitley and the IAF are all on the same page regarding the Rafale however there are the details to go through now.


----------



## Bang Galore

sancho said:


> It doesn't say that the deal is in trouble, just that there is no deal yet and that is the important point! That and the fact that a new government is in charge, is enough for them to make a new approach, much beyond the normal discussions as you think and I expect the same to happen when PM Modi is in Germany.
> The fact is, the new government has not stated anything that would make Rafale as their only choice and that is the straw the EF consortium / partners will try to use. If they really get a chance is another question and needs to be seen if we finally get an idea about the defence policies. Till then, the deal is more open than it was before the elections and for India that surely isn't a bad thing.
> 
> P.S. It seems as the British minister was more successful in fixing deals btw:
> 
> Indian Air Force News & Discussions | Page 180




No harm if the French are left stewing for a little bit. Anything that will cause some behavioral alterations. Don't particularly want anyone to be too sure of their position. Let them sweat a little.


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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> Pretty irrelevant don't you think sir?


Not necessarily, now the EF basically has the same advantage as the Rafale has, by already having available a SR missile in IAF's weapon package (Mica for M2K and Rafale, ASRAAM for Jags and EF).



Abingdonboy said:


> From all I've read (from credible sources) it seems Modi, Jaitley and the IAF are all on the same page regarding the Rafale however there are the details to go through now.



How did you came to that conclusion? Where did Modi said anything in favour for Rafale, or that would hint on a fast decision?
Jaitley in fact didn't supported the Rafale deal either, but raised questions about the costs, which on the one hand is understandable since he is Finance Minister and has to deal with all the promises they made during the elections now. On the other hand, that also could had been based on the life cycle cost issue, that they have raised too and interestingly the cost that was quoted by IAF, also was a cost over … years and not the unit or procurement cost of the the 126 x Rafales now. Not to mention the points mentioned in the Hindu article in post #9788 which clearly shows concern about ToT and a possible buyer-seller relationship with the French.

The point for the EF however is purely dependent on the EF partners, if they offer a deal that the BJP can't reject (better ToT, more industrial participation of Indian companies, more jobs created in India, co-developments rather than the buyer-seller relationship that the French still aim on), things can change and the BJP might re-evaluate! The fact that the government doesn't say anything now and talks with all sides is actually showing that they are leaving all options open and that's the right thing to do for India's interests.



Bang Galore said:


> No harm if the French are left stewing for a little bit. Anything that will cause some behavioral alterations. Don't particularly want anyone to be too sure of their position. Let them sweat a little.



Of course not, it's a competition and we need to get the best deal for us, in return for the huge ammount of money we spend and eventhough we like the French, we also know that they are difficult to deal with (cost issues with Shakti engine deal of LUH, ToT issues for Maitri SAM and now the useless workshare issues of Rafale). That's why we need these competitions, to be on the upper side of the negotiations and put some pressure on them if needed. The sad thing is, that this wouldn't be necessary if they see us as partners and would aim on joint developments.

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## sancho

> *After France, Now UK Woos India For Multi-Billion Dollar Deals*
> 
> World leaders are lining up to secure multi-billion dollar deals in India, and at top of their agenda is to impress the new Prime Minister Narendra Modi, whose government prepares to open the nascent defence industry to foreign investment.
> 
> The UK's Foreign Secretary William Hague and Finance Minister George Osborne are on a two-day visit to India to sell the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA). Despite its Eurofighter Typhoon losing out to France's Rafale in 2012, the UK is still not given up, sources are saying. The two British politicians are likely to push for the deal in their meetings with Indian leaders.
> 
> The hope emerges *from the delay in finalising* of the Rs. 10,000 crore Rafale deal with France...



After France, Now UK Woos India For Multi-Billion Dollar Deals - NDTV


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## cloud_9

French Credit line - $1.4 Billion
UK Credit line - $1.7 Billion

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## he-man

Remember i was saying all along that budget allocation will be a problem due to almost doubling of the deal value??
Well thats real reason for the delay as accepted by antony in feb this year not negotiations.

Negotiation is just happening to bring the price down.

And yeah this deal is just too much considering our current economic situation,,,,i would say we should go for 80 rafales now with option to buy 50-60 in the future if the economy improves,,its the best solution i think.

By 2020-22 economy should be pretty stable and we can opt for more birds then

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## IND151

MMRCA deal ‘moving slowly’ towards conclusion | idrw.org


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## he-man

IND151 said:


> MMRCA deal ‘moving slowly’ towards conclusion | idrw.org



i have been reading such reports for 2 years now


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## IND151

he-man said:


> i have been reading such reports for 2 years now



Like I haven't, but I feel the deal will be signed this year.


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## SQ8

sancho said:


> As @rockstarIN correctly said, it's just another classic of Ajay Shukla.
> 
> The article is full of mistakes and baseless claims, that *guy has zero idea about IAF matters*, but sadly gets his space in the Indian media (for reasons that I simply don't understand), so just ignore it.



When you have the same here by many(if not most) Indian members(and mirrored on the other side as well).. you cant blame the media for not knowing who to ask. 

Interestingly though, the Eurofighter had a nice update posted. 
Eurofighter: new aerodynamics set for 2014 test flight - 6/25/2014 - Flight Global


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## halloweene

It compensates the lack in pitch authority while releasing heavy loads and authority at high AOA. On the other hand, LERX will somehow dsiminish high speed qualities. No free sweets....


----------



## sancho

Oscar said:


> When you have the same here by many(if not most) Indian members(and mirrored on the other side as well).. you cant blame the media for not knowing who to ask.



You can, since forumers (from every origin!) usually state only their opinions in a smaller discussions, while he present himself as an expert on the matter, therefore a reliable source of information. If he posts something on his blog on the other side, it would just be his opinion again. I think parts of the media purposely use him and his statements, knowing that they are wrong, just to use it as sensational news, or as a controversial side in talk shows.



Oscar said:


> Interestingly though, the Eurofighter had a nice update posted.
> Eurofighter: new aerodynamics set for 2014 test flight - 6/25/2014 - Flight Global



Yes, but nothing new actually. They are testing it for some years and have it as an option for the upgrade roadmap, if any customer funds it, is another question. The uk armed forces commentary blog link it with countering issues after CFT integration, rather than the need to improve maneuverability:



> The information is  that Conformal Fuel Tanks can have "quite a severe impact" on stability margins for Typhoon, causing strakes to be considered "essential enablers".
> It seems, in other words, that the Tranche 3A is not as "ready to take" the CFT as we've been told for a while. This means cost and complexities to re-introduce the new aerodynamics afterwards. My confidence on seeing CFTs on RAF Typhoons has dropped a lot when i read that. Even though inserting LERX and strakes should not be particularly challenging, we all know how tight the budget is, and while the RAF has opened a program and a funding line for AESA radar, one for CFT was missing, even before these news.



UK Armed Forces Commentary: News from the forces - Check for updates


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## sancho

> *There is no moral conflict over this.' Hague defends pushing sales to India while citing inspiration of pacifist icon Gandhi
> *
> ...The ministers have also been promoting the Eurofighter Typhoon jet, which is partly built in Britain. India is looking to buy 126 fighter jets and had identified the French Rafale as its preferred choice. Yet repeated delays on signing the deal have left Britain hopeful that India may yet opt to buy the Typhoon.
> 
> Asked whether it was morally appropriate to be pushing arms deals to a nation with widespread social challenges while citing the inspiration of Gandhi, Mr Hague said Britain followed strict rules relating to weapons sales.
> 
> He said every nation had the right to defend itself. “There is no moral conflict over this.”...



'There is no moral conflict over this.' Hague defends pushing sales to India while citing inspiration of pacifist icon Gandhi - New Articles - The Independent



> *UK Ministers in India to 'Strike a Chord' with Modi's Government
> *
> On Rafale vs Eurofighter
> 
> Previous govt chose France as preferred partner
> If current govt wants to change, we will talk to them
> Hoping to strike defence deals in the future


UK Ministers in India to 'Strike a Chord' with Modi's Government - NDTV


Either side is looking for a signal of the new government, be it in favour for the Rafale, or if there is a chance for a re-evaluation and that surely will give us higher ground to choose the best offer.


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## halloweene

@ Sancho CFTs affect extrados, a commonly forgotten issue.


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## sancho

Google translated:



> *No money for the Rafale*
> 
> The purchase of equipment abroad is not a priority this year. Investors, however, are encouraged to implement more in India.
> The new budget was eagerly awaited by French arms manufacturers who hoped to see a sharp increase in the capital budget of the Indian Air Force , corresponding to the signature of the contract to purchase 126 Rafale. This is a priori not the case. The defense budget has been increased by approximately 600 million euros, but with different assignments, including expenditure on research and development and railway infrastructure along the borders. We do not see _"where the Air Force could find the money"_ to pay the first installment of the Rafale, said *Ajai Shukla, one of the Indian specialists most reputable Defence and columnist "Business Standard" *.


Pas d’argent frais pour le Rafale, Asie - Pacifique

 @halloweene 

If you have any chance to talk to the author, please enlight him about the credibility of his source!


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## atlssa

*Stuck in Works, Rafale Deal Fails to Take Off *
By N C Bipindra
Published: 06th Jul 2014 07:29:56 AM





NEW DELHI: India’s most awaited defence deal for 126 combat planes, expected to be worth nearly `1 lakh crore, may take longer than expected to materialize.

Just over a month after the Modi government got into the saddle, it has now emerged that the Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) tender for which India selected the French Rafale aircraft from the Dassault Aviation stable is still in the works and would take at least another six months to be ready.

However, even readying all papers by December this year would be no guarantee that the contract would be signed within the current fiscal that ends on March 31, 2015, say senior bureaucrats in the Defence Ministry. “The signing may not even happen within this financial year,’’ a top bureaucrat said, noting there were at least three reasons due to which the seven-year-old tender had not materialized into a successful deal.

It has been more than two years, since Rafale beat its closest competitor Eurofighter Typhoon from the consortium then called EADS Cassidian. When French Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius was in Delhi last week, the Indian response to his efforts to push the deal through was lukewarm, say officials.

Prime Minister Narendra Modi's likely stopover in Frankfurt and the reported request from Germany for a summit meeting with Chancellor Angela Merkel has further fuelled suspicions that the Germans, who were spearheading the Typhoon Campaign in the MMRCA tender, were partially successful in convincing Modi to rethink the selection of French Rafale.

A senior official said the reason for lack of enthusiasm on India’s part to Fabius’ pitch was not due to a rethink, but due to other factors. The most important being the long-winding negotiations, particularly on the life cycle costs aspect of the Rafale offer, over which former defence minister A K Antony had raised a controversy in February this year.

During the Defence Exposition in Delhi, Antony had said that delays (in the UPA regime) over Rafale deal was due to ‘‘certain issues’’ with Rafale's life cycle costs, which would be the expenditure incurred by India on operations and maintenance if its flies the Rafale plane for 40 years after induction, along with the price of the planes. Since then, India and France—particularly Dassault Aviation and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited—have concluded their part of the negotiations as partners in the venture. Under the tender provisions, Dassault Aviation will manufacture the first 18 of the Rafale for IAF, while HAL will build the remaining 108 in India.

Senior IAF officers, who have dealt with the Rafale acquisition process, pointed out that the delays on the life cycle costs negotiations were due to the fact that this was the first-ever Indian defence deal in which these costs were being worked out. It had also been made mandatory to calculate the life cycle costs before the deal is signed.

‘‘Life cycle cost is an important determinant in deciding with whom the contract would be signed. Even at this stage, the tender process provides for going back to the negotiating table with the second lowest bidder,’’ a former officer, who did not wish to be identified, said. But Typhoon’s costs are prohibitively higher than Rafale, he added.

Another factor troubling the Indian defence ministry is the cost of the MMRCA. When the approval for procuring the 126 aircraft was given by the previous NDA regime in 2000, the cost pegged was `42,000 crore.

‘‘After one-and-a-half decade of that approval, it is but obvious that the cost of the planes would increase and it could in fact double, considering inflationary factors and the Rupee-Euro conversion. Though India has benchmarked the likely price of the planes and the cost increase has been factored in, the necessary approvals for budgetary provisions for the planes would need a fresh sanction," a senior IAF officer admitted. That would mean the new Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) under Modi would have to consider the fresh cost and give a nod to it. That too could take about a month to three months, after the fresh price, based on the benchmarked price, the commercial bids from Dassault Aviation and the cost negotiation are taken into account. But, the CCS meet to consider the MMRCA price is still far away, officers said, noting that Indian government and Dassault Aviation have not even reached the cost negotiation stage yet.

Last, but not the least, this fiscal’s `2.24 lakh crore interim defence budget, especially the `89,588-crore capital expenditure for new assets, has not factored in the 15 per cent down payment that needs to be immediately made if the MMRCA deal is inked. Considering the cost of the MMRCA deal could go up to `1 lakh crore, that would mean at least `15,000 crore of down payment. But the IAF has got only `20,507 crore for its capital expenses this fiscal, under the interim budget.

Though the Defence Ministry has sought a 25 per cent increase in the defence budget that is to be presented by Finance and Defence Minister Arun Jaitley next week, senior ministry officials admitted that they were only expecting a marginal hike to cater to inflation. Unfortunately for the IAF, already about 60 per cent of the capital expenses provided for it this fiscal would go towards committed liabilities, such as contracts it had already signed for in the previous years and it would be left with just about 40 per cent of the funds for new contracts.

*Reasons for Delay*

The Indian government and Dassault Aviation have not even reached the cost negotiation stage yet

Rs 42,000 crore was the original cost estimate. The cost of the Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft may have doubled since the previous NDA regime’s approval in 2000

The new Cabinet Committee on Security under Modi would have to consider and clear a fresh cost. This could take about a month to three months

Rs 20,507 crore the amount sanctioned for the IAF’s capital expenses this fiscal, under the interim budget. The revised costs could go up to `1 lakh crore. This would mean at least `15,000 crore of down payment 

Stuck in Works, Rafale Deal Fails to Take Off -The New Indian Express

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## NKVD

atlssa said:


> *Stuck in Works, Rafale Deal Fails to Take Off *
> By N C Bipindra
> Published: 06th Jul 2014 07:29:56 AM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NEW DELHI: India’s most awaited defence deal for 126 combat planes, expected to be worth nearly `1 lakh crore, may take longer than expected to materialize.
> 
> Just over a month after the Modi government got into the saddle, it has now emerged that the Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) tender for which India selected the French Rafale aircraft from the Dassault Aviation stable is still in the works and would take at least another six months to be ready.
> 
> However, even readying all papers by December this year would be no guarantee that the contract would be signed within the current fiscal that ends on March 31, 2015, say senior bureaucrats in the Defence Ministry. “The signing may not even happen within this financial year,’’ a top bureaucrat said, noting there were at least three reasons due to which the seven-year-old tender had not materialized into a successful deal.
> 
> It has been more than two years, since Rafale beat its closest competitor Eurofighter Typhoon from the consortium then called EADS Cassidian. When French Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius was in Delhi last week, the Indian response to his efforts to push the deal through was lukewarm, say officials.
> 
> Prime Minister Narendra Modi's likely stopover in Frankfurt and the reported request from Germany for a summit meeting with Chancellor Angela Merkel has further fuelled suspicions that the Germans, who were spearheading the Typhoon Campaign in the MMRCA tender, were partially successful in convincing Modi to rethink the selection of French Rafale.
> 
> A senior official said the reason for lack of enthusiasm on India’s part to Fabius’ pitch was not due to a rethink, but due to other factors. The most important being the long-winding negotiations, particularly on the life cycle costs aspect of the Rafale offer, over which former defence minister A K Antony had raised a controversy in February this year.
> 
> During the Defence Exposition in Delhi, Antony had said that delays (in the UPA regime) over Rafale deal was due to ‘‘certain issues’’ with Rafale's life cycle costs, which would be the expenditure incurred by India on operations and maintenance if its flies the Rafale plane for 40 years after induction, along with the price of the planes. Since then, India and France—particularly Dassault Aviation and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited—have concluded their part of the negotiations as partners in the venture. Under the tender provisions, Dassault Aviation will manufacture the first 18 of the Rafale for IAF, while HAL will build the remaining 108 in India.
> 
> Senior IAF officers, who have dealt with the Rafale acquisition process, pointed out that the delays on the life cycle costs negotiations were due to the fact that this was the first-ever Indian defence deal in which these costs were being worked out. It had also been made mandatory to calculate the life cycle costs before the deal is signed.
> 
> ‘‘Life cycle cost is an important determinant in deciding with whom the contract would be signed. Even at this stage, the tender process provides for going back to the negotiating table with the second lowest bidder,’’ a former officer, who did not wish to be identified, said. But Typhoon’s costs are prohibitively higher than Rafale, he added.
> 
> Another factor troubling the Indian defence ministry is the cost of the MMRCA. When the approval for procuring the 126 aircraft was given by the previous NDA regime in 2000, the cost pegged was `42,000 crore.
> 
> ‘‘After one-and-a-half decade of that approval, it is but obvious that the cost of the planes would increase and it could in fact double, considering inflationary factors and the Rupee-Euro conversion. Though India has benchmarked the likely price of the planes and the cost increase has been factored in, the necessary approvals for budgetary provisions for the planes would need a fresh sanction," a senior IAF officer admitted. That would mean the new Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) under Modi would have to consider the fresh cost and give a nod to it. That too could take about a month to three months, after the fresh price, based on the benchmarked price, the commercial bids from Dassault Aviation and the cost negotiation are taken into account. But, the CCS meet to consider the MMRCA price is still far away, officers said, noting that Indian government and Dassault Aviation have not even reached the cost negotiation stage yet.
> 
> Last, but not the least, this fiscal’s `2.24 lakh crore interim defence budget, especially the `89,588-crore capital expenditure for new assets, has not factored in the 15 per cent down payment that needs to be immediately made if the MMRCA deal is inked. Considering the cost of the MMRCA deal could go up to `1 lakh crore, that would mean at least `15,000 crore of down payment. But the IAF has got only `20,507 crore for its capital expenses this fiscal, under the interim budget.
> 
> Though the Defence Ministry has sought a 25 per cent increase in the defence budget that is to be presented by Finance and Defence Minister Arun Jaitley next week, senior ministry officials admitted that they were only expecting a marginal hike to cater to inflation. Unfortunately for the IAF, already about 60 per cent of the capital expenses provided for it this fiscal would go towards committed liabilities, such as contracts it had already signed for in the previous years and it would be left with just about 40 per cent of the funds for new contracts.
> 
> *Reasons for Delay*
> 
> The Indian government and Dassault Aviation have not even reached the cost negotiation stage yet
> 
> Rs 42,000 crore was the original cost estimate. The cost of the Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft may have doubled since the previous NDA regime’s approval in 2000
> 
> The new Cabinet Committee on Security under Modi would have to consider and clear a fresh cost. This could take about a month to three months
> 
> Rs 20,507 crore the amount sanctioned for the IAF’s capital expenses this fiscal, under the interim budget. The revised costs could go up to `1 lakh crore. This would mean at least `15,000 crore of down payment
> 
> Stuck in Works, Rafale Deal Fails to Take Off -The New Indian Express


@Abingdonboy @sancho @Gessler


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## amitkriit

I believe that the MMRCA competition is open for the deserving bidders. France killed it's chances by being too greedy and uncompromising. Don't think money is a problem, but we would like to get the best value for our money. India is not a cash cow and our defence equipment suppliers must quickly realize this fact.


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## halloweene

sancho said:


> Google translated:
> 
> 
> Pas d’argent frais pour le Rafale, Asie - Pacifique
> 
> @halloweene
> 
> If you have any chance to talk to the author, please enlight him about the credibility of his source!


The author is in India... But someone else already did before me...

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## sancho

NKVD said:


> Senior IAF officers, who have dealt with the Rafale acquisition process, pointed out that the delays on the life cycle costs negotiations were due to the fact that this was the first-ever Indian defence deal in which these costs were being worked out. It had also been made mandatory to calculate the life cycle costs before the deal is signed.
> ‘‘Life cycle cost is an important determinant in deciding with whom the contract would be signed. *Even at this stage, the tender process provides for going back to the negotiating table with the second lowest bidder*,’’ a former officer, who did not wish to be identified, said. *But Typhoon’s costs are prohibitively higher than Rafale*, he added.



Nothing new actually, but as I said, it depends on what you get in return! If the EF partners can provide more overall advantages, the high costs would still be worth it. Otherwise the Rafale remains the prefered choice, but they played themselfs into trouble with all the delays and unnecessary. When you think about it, Rafale and EF were shortlisted in 2011, in 2012 the L1 was announced, but Dassault were only able to fix all offsets/ToT requirements early 2014.



halloweene said:


> But someone else already did before me...



Meaning?


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## halloweene

Someone talked about Ajai Shukla before i did it in comments.

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## meena24

sancho said:


> True, but the project is too important for us to let it go, since it will set the base for our aero industry for the future. Even if delayed, we gained a lot of important and useful know how, we now have to learn how to fix the problems. The MK1 is already under production and after FOC should be reasonably good for air policing and CAS roles. The Mig 35 won't come for sure, for numerous reasons of the fighter itself, but MMRCA is meant to be the alternative for LCA and if MK2 would not be inducted, it would only mean more of the MMRCA winner and not to add a different type of fighter.



can you explain why it wont come, here is a news link stating that Russian Air force will induct Mig-35 after 2016

http://defenceradar.com/2014/05/06/russian-air-force-induct-mig-35-fighters-2016/ 

Why it cant be inducted, Already our squadrons dwindling, I expect Jaguar aircraft will be obsolete by 2020. 

Why i bet on Mig-35 is Indian Airforce technicians and professionals are already trained with Mig model aircrafts. Further if you see by 2020.

100 Mig -27 Aircraft 

125 Mig-21 ( I don't know the exact number of Mig-21's in service)

100 Jaguar 

all the above three aircrafts will end their service life by 2020 barring jaguar due to some dartin up grades.

a) To replace all these aircraft's we need to induct additional fighters apart from MRCA either it should be Mig-35 or it should be additional SU-30MKI apart from 272 already ordered. 

b) We have to procure more rafales from Dassault Rafale plant itself rather than making it in HAL, because i believe Rafale plant in France can manufacture at least 10 aircraft minimum. I don't have any idea about their maximum production capabilities. If the order goes beyond 125 units we can procure more aircraft from Dassault Rafale plant itself. 

Pakistan might develop the first prototype of JF-17 Thunder Block II before this year. Our qualitative edge via Pakistan will rapidly get blunt if Pakistan inducts 13 F-16 fighter aircraft from Jordan.

your views @ sancho on additional MKI's and the option of directly procuring the aircraft from Dassault Rafale instead of making all the Aircraft here.


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## sancho

meena24 said:


> can you explain why it wont come, here is a news link stating that Russian Air force will induct Mig-35 after 2016



It won't come to India, the Russians might take it, mainly to keep Mikoyan alive, but that's up to them.



meena24 said:


> all the above three aircrafts will end their service life by 2020 barring jaguar due to some dartin up grades.
> 
> a) To replace all these aircraft's we need to induct additional fighters apart from MRCA



Many mistakes, Jags will remain in service far beyond 2020, while most of the Mig 21s and 27s will be phased out before 2020. The Mig 27 for the most part will already be replaced by MKIs, the Mig 21s by LCA + MMRCA. FGFA numbers are meant to replace M2Ks, Mig 29s and even the Jags at the end, so there is no need for another fighter, until the MKI needs a replacement.



meena24 said:


> either it should be Mig-35 or it should be additional SU-30MKI apart from 272 already ordered.



As already explained, IAF don't want to increase the overdependance on Russia, therefore additional MKIs are not wanted. The last order was most likely even a forced one, because of the delays for FGFA development on the one side and the bad shape of Mig 27s on the other.



meena24 said:


> i believe Rafale plant in France can manufacture at least 10 aircraft minimum. I don't have any idea about their maximum production capabilities.



Currently 11 per year, increase possible to 30 per year.


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## sancho

> *Funding windfall for UK defence projects*
> 
> Royal Air Force operations with the Sentinel R1 and Shadow R1 intelligence aircraft are to be extended until 2018, as part of a £1.1 billion ($1.8 billion) funding boost for the Ministry of Defence announced at the show. Also included is money to acquire an active electronically scanned array radar for some of the service’s Eurofighter Typhoons...
> 
> ...“There will be further investment in unmanned future combat air systems, and in an upgraded E-scan radar for our Typhoons,” Cameron says, with further details on both projects expected to emerge here on Tuesday. “This is a huge programme of investment to give our armed forces the tools they need to the job,” he adds.
> 
> Meanwhile, Cameron says that “there are other potential orders” for the Typhoon, beyond the UK’s success to date in brokering sales with Oman and Saudi Arabia. “We have got to keep working hard with partners to get this aircraft into as many markets as possible,” he says. “But I’m confident about what we have to sell.”...



FARNBOROUGH: Funding windfall for UK defence projects - 7/14/2014 - Flight Global

Seems like the EF finally will get it's AESA, the question is only when and how?


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## IND151

India undertakes final negotiations for mega fighter deal amid hectic lobbying | idrw.org


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## atlssa

*India closes in on $20 billion Rafale deal - The Times of India*
*


*India is quietly continuing its final negotiations 
for acquiring 126 French Rafale fighters in
the almost $20 billion MMRCA
(medium multi-role combat aircraft) project.​

NEW DELHI: Unruffled by the last-ditch bids being made by countries like the US, UK, Germany and Sweden to wade into the "mother of all defence deals", India is quietly continuing its final negotiations for acquiring 126 French Rafale fighters in the almost $20 billion MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft) project. 

Defence ministry sources on Monday said another meeting of a sub-committee of the ongoing CNC (contract negotiation committee), which includes representatives from MoD, IAF, DRDO and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), is slated to take place on July 17-19 in Bangalore with the French companies led by Dassault Aviation. 

As reported by TOI last month, the complex negotiations have now finally reached a stage from where they can be wrapped up in the next three months, with over 50% of the final contract as well as the inter-governmental agreement already finalized. "After that, it will be a political call. The approval process will go right up to the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) before the contract can be inked," said a source. 

Once the project is finalized, the first 18 jets are to be delivered to IAF within 36-48 months, while the rest 108 will be manufactured by HAL with transfer of technology over the next seven years. 

With the final lap is sight, a lot of heat and dust is now being generated by the rivals earlier eliminated from the race after exhaustive technical and commercial evaluations since the MMRCA selection process began way back in August 2007. 

Last week, for instance, visiting British foreign secretary William Hague lobbied hard for the Eurofighter Typhoon, which is backed by UK, Germany, Spain and Italy, during his meetings with the Modi government. Germany, too, is learnt to have renewed the push for the Typhoons. 

Similarly, the US lobby still harbors the hope that either the F/A-18 `Super Hornet' or the F-16 `Super Viper' can fly back into the MMRCA competition, and it will set the "right tone" for PM Narendra Modi's meeting with President Barack Obama in Washington in September. 

But the Indian defence establishment is quite clear there can be "no comebacks" in the ongoing MMRCA project. "There are only two possibilities. One, the deal is inked for the Rafale jets. Conversely, the entire MMRCA process is scrapped, after being in the works for a decade, with a fresh global tender or RFP (request for proposal) being issued," said the source. 

The Rafale deal is being attacked on the ground that it will prove to be exorbitant. But the Typhoon, the only other fighter to pass muster during the extensive field trials, had proved to be "much more expensive" than the Rafale on both "direct cost of acquisitions" and "life-cycle costs" in January 2012. 

With IAF down to 34 fighter squadrons, when at least 44 are required, IAF has identified the MMRCA project as its "topmost priority" for the Modi government. The indigenous Tejas light combat aircraft, which is yet to receive its final operational clearance despite being in the making for 30 years, cannot fulfill the MMRCA's role. A MMRCA, for instance, will have three times the range and weapon-load carrying capacity as compared to the Tejas, which will be critical to take on China if required.

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## sancho

Crossposting from the MP forum (credits for Olybrius)

Talios LDP / PDL NG for Mirage 2000 and Rafale F3R:






> *Talios*
> Designed entirely around operational feedback from users, TALIOS is the latest addition to the Thales family. TALIOS is the first optronic pod to cover the entire critical decision chain from intelligence gathering to weapon delivery...



Talios | Thales Group








Wonder where the RCS reduction features that early reports talked about should be?

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## sancho

More from Farnborough



> *BAE To Flight-Trial New Radar for RAF Aboard Typhoon*
> 
> prototype active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar developed to meet specific British Royal Air Force requirements is to be flight-trialed on a Eurofighter Typhoon jet as part of a £72 million (US $123 million) deal awarded to BAE Systems by the Ministry of Defence here.
> The three-year contract, called the E-Scan Extended Assessment Phase, is being undertaken by the British separately from a parallel development program called Radar 1+ that the four Typhoon partner nations of Britain, Germany, Italy and Spain committed to on July 15.
> 
> The deal with the British involves a number of work packages including a Typhoon flight test of a prototype radar as well as ground testing at BAE’s electronic warfare test facility at Warton in northwest England...



BAE To Flight-Trial New Radar for RAF Aboard Typhoon | Defense News | defensenews.com




> *RAF Tornados to get Brimstone 2 missiles in 2015*
> 
> ...The RAF’s Eurofighter Typhoons are also scheduled to receive the munition, but not until much later in the decade. This prompted the National Audit Office in February to issue a report warning that the UK will face a capability gap between 2019, when the Tornado is scheduled for retirement, and 2021, when Brimstone 2 is scheduled be integrated on Typhoon.



FARNBOROUGH: RAF Tornados to get Brimstone 2 missiles in 2015 - 7/17/2014 - Flight Global


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## sancho

> *IAF inches closer to the mega fighter jet deal*
> 
> In a move that is being viewed with much anticipation, starting tomorrow, officials from French firm Dassault Aviation, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) and Indian Air Force (IAF) will engage in 48 hours of negotiations in Bangalore over the deal to acquire 126 Rafale fighter jets under the long-standing Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) contract. The conclusion of this round is likely to land the IAF just one step away from concluding the entire set of negotiations and thereby, signing the deal.
> A senior Ministry of Defence (MoD) official said, "We expect total closure of negotiations over Transfer of Technology (ToT) from this round. With that done, we will have completed negotiations by sub committees on ToT, offsets and maintenance." He added, "What will remain will be the overall cost and there too, 75 per cent of the work has been completed."
> 
> Sources indicated the IAF believes that Contract Negotiation Committee (CNC) could complete its entire gamut of work before December this year, following which the matter will be placed before the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS), after consultations with the Finance Ministry. "We are not being ambitious if we say we expect the deal to be signed before the end of this financial year," said a source...



IAF inches closer to the mega fighter jet deal : India, News - India Today

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## rockstarIN

I think brits refused to sell us their tornados and we were forced to buy gaugars. Had they sold tornados that time, it would have been helpful for them to get mmrca.


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## he-man

People mmrca is way more vital for us than the french,,,the more time we waste the less squadron strength becomes........................deliveries will start only after 3 years of signing the deal so lets hope it gets done fast


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## Dillinger

he-man said:


> People mmrca is way more vital for us than the french,,,the more time we waste the less squadron strength becomes........................deliveries will start only after 3 years of signing the deal so lets hope it gets done fast



10-15000 crores INR is what we need as down payment, first installment, which is not accounted for in the capital acquisition component of IAF's current budget. Time to lagega, negotiations, wrangling etc.


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## he-man

Dillinger said:


> 10-15000 crores INR is what we need as down payment, first installment, which is not accounted for in the capital acquisition component of IAF's current budget. Time to lagega, negotiations, wrangling etc.



remember i said this last year that economy will prove as a hurdle eventually,,,its exactly whats happening.

we are paying for wasting time on the deal in the garb of fictitious negotiations when the only concern that ever was was



cost 

We don't admit it even now,,dosen't change the reality that its stupid to fund both pakfa and rafale at the same time(well almost).
Rafale deal should have been signed 2 years,maybe 3 years back and all would have made sense with step wise budget allocation for rafale and then pakfa in 2020 or something.

Now we shot ourselves in the foot,,not the first time though


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## sancho

Dillinger said:


> 10-15000 crores INR is what we need as down payment, first installment, which is not accounted for in the capital acquisition component of IAF's current budget.



Based on?


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## he-man

sancho said:


> Based on?



he is right,,no funds have been allocated for rafale in budget seperately


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## Dillinger

sancho said:


> Based on?



The defence budget breakdown which shows the current fiscal's actual figures and the interim figures together, subdivided into categories wrt the forces.

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## he-man

Dillinger said:


> The defence budget breakdown which shows the current fiscal's actual figures and the interim figures together, subdivided into categories wrt the forces.



told u last year only..................bad times ahead.
we need to sign a 6 billion$ pakfa contract too for r&d with russia,,then there is p-75i project,,super sukhoi too.

should have been more systematic,now we need to dole out the money at the same time


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## Dillinger

@sancho

http://indiabudget.nic.in/ub2014-15/eb/sbe27.pdf

The above, unless we are going to draw from the funds in the non-planned category, and I mean draw ALL of it, its going to be difficult.



he-man said:


> told u last year only..................bad times ahead.
> we need to sign a 6 billion$ pakfa contract too for r&d with russia,,then there is p-75i project,,super sukhoi too.
> 
> should have been more systematic,now we need to dole out the money at the same time



Its not that bad, the issue is that the government is keeping a close watch on its purse strings for at least a while before it settles in for proper expenditure.


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## he-man

Dillinger said:


> @sancho
> 
> http://indiabudget.nic.in/ub2014-15/eb/sbe27.pdf
> 
> The above, unless we are going to draw from the funds in the non-planned category, and I mean draw ALL of it, its going to be difficult.
> 
> 
> 
> Its not that bad, the issue is that the government is keeping a close watch on its purse strings for at least a while before it settles in for proper expenditure.


It will pinch us in this state of economy,,,of course we will sign the deals but better planning would have avoided this mess.Personally i am more interested in pakfa and super sukhoi upgrade,,,if it at all happens


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## Dillinger

he-man said:


> It will pinch us in this state of economy,,,of course we will sign the deals but better planning would have avoided this mess.Personally i am more interested in pakfa and super sukhoi upgrade,,,if it at all happens



Lol, shifting from non-planned to planned expenditure (those are specific terms and not generalizations) would have helped.


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## sancho

Dillinger said:


> @sancho
> 
> http://indiabudget.nic.in/ub2014-15/eb/sbe27.pdf
> 
> The above, unless we are going to draw from the funds in the non-planned category, and I mean draw ALL of it, its going to be difficult.



I saw that earlier too and if I'm not mistaken it say around $2.7 billion dollar for aircraft & engine procurements and another $2.5 billion for "other equipment". But it doesn't say for what kind of aircrafts or equipment this budget is meant for, nor does it say how much of the money that was allocated in the last budget is still available for it. This is "just" the total budget that is allocated newly for this FY, but it needs to be seen on what the money will be spend on.


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## Dillinger

sancho said:


> I saw that earlier too and if I'm not mistaken it say around $2.7 billion dollar for aircraft & engine procurements and another $2.5 billion for "other equipment". But it doesn't say for what kind of aircrafts or equipment this budget is meant for, nor does it say how much of the money that was allocated in the last budget is still available for it. This is "just" the total budget that is allocated newly for this FY, but it needs to be seen on what the money will be spend on.



The heads are actually quite descriptive, the other equipment category expenses are not going to get used for the MMRCA, since the category of "air crafts and aero engines" is quite clear and self explanatory (anything to the contrary would render the very point of having separate headers futile), also since there is no planned expenditure heading it would be risky to assume that the complete 2.7 billion or so dollars are slated for Rafale (not saying that they can't be), but it would require completely emptying the non planned funds for the IAF slated for aircraft since incidentally 2 billion+ is pretty much what the first installment would look like.

@sancho Not to mention that previous installments are ALSO paid out of the capex funds, so new MKIs, upgrades, engines being bought for the Jags (IF the Jag upg goes through finally), all of that comes under the same head. Ergo the problem when planned expenditure is not expounded upon.

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## sancho

Dillinger said:


> , also since there is no planned expenditure heading it would be risky to assume that the complete 2.7 billion or so dollars are slated for Rafale



Who said it would, you actually only need $1.5 to 1.8 billion, for MMRCA alone, while the rest could be diverted to other procurements. The point however is, that that chart doesn't show specifics on how much money will be diverted for what, nor how much money is left from the last budget. MMRCA was budgeted in the last FY, so anything money that is left from that will be in addition to the new budget. So if $700 million were left, you only need $1 billion from the new budget and that goes for all procurement that were in the budget last year, if that budget were not used.

When you compare the interim budget of the UPA and this new budget, you will see that the allocation for IAF has not changed and both governments were / are planing with MMRCA within this FY.

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## Gessler



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## Yzd Khalifa

What happened to the deal? Has it been sealed?


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## nik22

Yzd Khalifa said:


> What happened to the deal? Has it been sealed?



Sir, If it would be sealed, you would for sure see 10 threads running on PDF 
something like 
"china and pakistan beware Rafale is coming - India TV"
"IAF getting ready to fight two front war - Rajat Pandit"
and loads of other posts by Indian, French and other proponents of the deal.

I don't see this deal getting signed this year. If not this year, it will never.


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## Yzd Khalifa

nik22 said:


> Sir, If it would be sealed, you would for sure see 10 threads running on PDF
> something like
> "china and pakistan beware Rafale is coming - India TV"
> "IAF getting ready to fight two front war - Rajat Pandit"
> and loads of other posts by Indian, French and other proponents of the deal.
> 
> I don't see this deal getting signed this year. If not this year, it will never.



Yeah, I think the time is running out to seal this deal, same goes with the UAE's potential deal.


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## trident2010

Gessler said:


>



Tigers meet !!


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## rockstarIN

Yzd Khalifa said:


> What happened to the deal? Has it been sealed?



Reports says the hard part of the negotiations are over (ToT & Offset) and others can be wrapped up in 3-4 months and they(Negotiation ppl incl, MoD, IAF & HAL personnel) will be ready for the contract.

Then its up to the MoD (Central Govt.) decide. Having said that, it is unlikely to get signed in this fiscal year(end of March 2015)


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## sathya

Any idea what is the 50 % offset clause ?

I mean 10 billion $ what woulda they invest ?


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## IND151

Livefist: Dassault's Rafale Tech Transfer Offer Compliant: Indian MoD

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## nair

The thread was opened in 2005.... and still we are talking about the tender......

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## surya kiran

@sancho @sandy_3126 @Dillinger @Oscar any idea on what the ToT will finally encompass and what the RFP asked for?

I thought, it was just the AESA and the source code the same. Does it include anything else like engines? And what will this finally entail for us? Does it include building the engine right from the raw material?


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## Dillinger

surya kiran said:


> @sancho @sandy_3126 @Dillinger @Oscar any idea on what the ToT will finally encompass and what the RFP asked for?
> 
> I thought, it was just the AESA and the source code the same. Does it include anything else like engines? And what will this finally entail for us? Does it include building the engine right from the raw material?



Nothing, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING on the engines, I know there are posters here even senior ones who think that some turbine tech will be accrued but that's patently false. Even when GTRE went to SNECMA for help on the Kaveri SNECMA gave them the finger and not too subtly by stating that they could get help in redesigning the engine around a SNECMA core and nothing else (understand that this would translate to a french engine with some Indian contribution and not tech sharing for fixing the Kaveri itself).

The following will illustrate what Dassault deems to be ToT:-







Beyond the scope of generic M-ToT but nothing of the sort that people believe the term ToT to entail.


NOTE:- Know how is accrued even when HAL or DRDO assembles equipment, machines or fabricates systems from scratch (from RM to stage to finished product, not the design itself) right here. What people envisage ToT to be is the transfer of the *"Know why"*, which just does not happen and will not happen. The accurate way of expanding upon this is to understand that they will tell you how to produce the rotables and spares in country, provide you with the relevant codes so that programmable systems can be maintained and used independently, in country integration of non-OEM systems and munitions will be enabled, access will be provided to certain sensitive constituent systems but again sans the Know why.

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## Agent_47



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## Dillinger

Agent_47 said:


>



Did anyone bother to notice that we have, as a policy, diluted our offset requirements. As per the original clause all retrenchment of acquisition cost amount (a certain percentage of it) was to be with our private companies specifically in the defence sector, we diluted that to allowing the OEM to invest a certain amount of the offset requirements even in areas of civilian applications.


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## Fahad Khan 2

the thread is open from 2005 and now its 2014 india wasted time you must have had a 2 or 3 sq..


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## Abingdonboy

Dillinger said:


> Did anyone bother to notice that we have, as a policy, diluted our offset requirements. As per the original clause all retrenchment of acquisition cost amount (a certain percentage of it) was to be with our private companies specifically in the defence sector, we diluted that to allowing the OEM to invest a certain amount of the offset requirements even in areas of civilian applications.


To be fair this was a missive hurdle that many defence deals were getting stuck on, the "dilution" as you put it is in line with international norms. 

Can't wait for the day these offsets are no longer mandated- they are a bloody nuisance to negotiate and implement and have messed up and even scuppered many defence deals for India.


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## atlssa

*India's 20-Year Late LCA Faces Fresh Delays*

Jul. 20, 2014 - 02:32PM | By VIVEK RAGHUVANSHI 





India's Light Combat Aircraft is expected to miss its 2014 deadline for final operational clearance. (AFP)​*NEW DELHI* — *India’s Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Mark-1, already 20 years late, likely will miss its final operational clearance (FOC) deadline set for the end of 2014, an Indian Air Force source said.*

In the run-up to the FOC stage, handling tests are being performed on only one aircraft while the remaining five are still in production. Ideally, handling flight tests should be performed on at least six aircraft to ascertain their operational readiness, the source said.

“With handling tests on only one aircraft, and the remaining not even manufactured, it is impossible to get FOC by December’s end,” the source said.

The initial operational clearance (IOC) for LCA Mark-1 was received in December. Now the aircraft must demonstrate full performance as defined by the design and agreement of the Indian Air Force.

In addition, the aircraft will integrate missiles and must have the capability for midair refueling. The LCA undergoing testing has still not been modified to allow air-to-air refueling and is unlikely to have that capability by the end of 2014, the source added.

No official from LCA producer Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) was available for comment or responded to questions submitted by Defense News. The Air Force ordered 40 LCAs from HAL.

*The LCA’s project cost has ballooned from about $90 million in 1983, when the project was conceived, to more than $4 billion. The aircraft is unlikely to be ready for operational deployment before 2016, the source said; the latest projected date had been 2014.*

LCA has been developed by the Aeronautical Development Agency, a laboratory under the government’s Defence Research and Development Organisation.

An Air Force official said the Ministry of Defence promised the aircraft will be ready for combat missions from 2015 after receiving the FOC.

“We are keeping our fingers crossed for that day,” the official said.

Development delays forced the Air Force to hunt for a fighter aircraft. The process is still underway to procure 126 medium multirole combat aircraft (MMRCA) at a cost of more than $12 billion. French company Dassault’s Rafale is the preferred vendor.

The LCA was due to replace aging Russian MiG-21 fighters.

“With the MMRCA already in procurement stage for over seven years, and the wait for the LCA Mark-1 getting longer, the combat worthiness of the Air Force has been severely affected, for which the Ministry of Defence should fix responsibility,” said Bhim Singh, retired Air Force wing commander. “With the ongoing resource crunch and the new government committing a meager hike of 2.3 percent over the proposals made by the outgoing government in defense spending for the current financial year, it is unlikely the MMRCA will be inked this year.”

The fate of the LCA Mark-2, which would eventually meet the Air Force requirement for heavier payloads, is unknown as the MoD has not yet signed a deal to buy GE-414 engines from the US. The Air Force selected GE-414 over the Eurojet EJ 200 engine in 2011.

The service said it chose the GE-414 for LCA Mark-2 because of its higher thrust over the GE-4014 engine powering the Mark-1.

The Mark-2 will have additional features, including a new flight control computer; upgraded avionics; retractable in-flight refueling; on-board oxygen generation; an active electronically scanned array radar; new electronic warfare suite; and the ability to reach supersonic speed in level flight.

*The Mark-2 was expected to be ready for flight tests by 2018, but the Air Force source said that because no significant work has begun on the aircraft, the 2018 deadline will be missed as well.*

“The Indian Air Force has a requirement of over 200 LCA Mark-1 and Mark-2 aircraft, but with delays looking imminent and the procurement process of MMRCA getting longer, the Indian Air Force could take a major hit on its fleet strength in the years ahead,” Singh said. ■

India's 20-Year Late LCA Faces Fresh Delays | Defense News | defensenews.com

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## Abingdonboy

MMRCA Misgivings Unfounded (a must read)


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## meena24

Abingdonboy said:


> MMRCA Misgivings Unfounded (a must read)



Exactly those nations whom the article points out have not gone to war with their neighbors, exactly this is what we fail to learn, many people here support domestic defence products very much even at the cost of National Security.

Best example is M777 artillery guns, there is no other gun produced like M777 howitzers which will give us a edge over pakistan in LOC artillery exchanges, If we had brought it along with M9082 Excalibur munitions we would have vaporized many of our adversary positions using this but we failed


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## DrSomnath999

*FROM AIR & COSMOS MAGAZINE 2329- SPECTRA WITH GaN TECH*











*FRENCH*

*Le GaN passe en bande X

Un démonstrateur d’émetteur Spectra au nitrure de gallium est attendu en 2014.*




Dans les laboratoires de la fonderie UMS, detenue a parts egales par EADS et Thales, une revolution se prepare. Des l'an prochain, une filiére de production de semi-conducteurs au nitrure de gallium (GaN) en bande X devrait etre qualifiee. C’est une premiere pour l'Europe.


Depuis cette annee, UMS etait deja parvenu a maitriser la production de compo-sants GaN fonctionnant en bande S, visant notamment le marche de la gamme de radars Ground Master de Thales.

Mais la realisation d’elements en bande X restait jusqu’alors l'apanage des Etats-Unis. Pour l'heure, les radars a antenne active developpes en Europe, comme le RBE2-AESA du Rafale, utili-sent des composants en arseniure de gallium (GaAs) comme ampEifi-cateurs hyperfrequences en bande X. “A taille equiva-lente, le GaN amene la promesse d’un gain de facteur 5 sur la puissance emise”, explique l'ingenieur en chef de l'armement Xavier Grison, de la

Direction generale de l'armement. C’est done bien l'avenir des radars aeroportes qui se joue sur cette revolution techno-logique. “Avec le GaAs, la marge de progression est faible et les radars actuels sont deja a leur limite haute en termes de
performances”, ajoute l’ingenieur.



*Le GaN en bande X qualifie en 2013.*

Depuis plusieurs annees, a la faveur de programmes d’etudes amont (PEA) successifs, la Direction generale de l'armement a favorise l'emergence de cette technologie. Le dernier PEA en date, baptise Ganiméde, doit aboutir a la realisation de prototypes de composants en bande X representatifs de ceux qui pourront etre utilises dans un systeme operationnel. Au titre du calendrier actuel, cette etape devrait etre atteinte d’ici deux a trois ans. Mais des l'an prochain, la filiére GaN sera deja qualifiee, ce qui signifie que le processus industriel sera maitrise et que les performances ainsi que la fiabilite du composant auront été clairement caracterisées

*ENGLISH*

*[SIZE = "4"][COLOR = "blue"] GaN X-band passes 

A transmitter Spectra demonstrator GaN is expected in 2014.[/COLOR][/SIZE]*




In laboratories UMS foundry, has detained being equal EADS and Thales shares, a revolution is preparing. The next year, a production of semiconductor gallium nitride (GaN) X-band should be characterized. This is a first for Europe.


Since that year, UMS was already succeeded to master the production of compo-nents operating in S-band GaN, including walking to the range of Thales Ground Master radars.

- But the realization of elements X-band remained hitherto the preserve of the United States. For now, the active antenna radar has developed in Europe as the RBE2-AESA Rafale are in use feels component of gallium arsenide (GaAs) as ampEifi-ers hyperfrequences X-band "A slow-Equiva size GaN brings the promise of a gain factor of 5 on the power emitted, "said the chief engineer of armaments Xavier Grison, the

Directorate General of Armaments. It's done well the future of airborne radar that is played on this techno-logical revolution. "With the GaAs, the room for improvement is low and the current radars are already at their upper limit in terms of
performance, "added the engineer.

-

*GaN X-band calls in 2013.*

For several years, favored by upstream studies programs (EAP) successive, the Directorate General of Armaments has fosters the emergence of this technology. The final PEA dated baptizes Ganymede, should lead to the realization of prototype X-band components representative of those that will be used in an operational system. Under the current schedule, this step should be reached within two to three years. But next year, the sector GaN is already qualified, which means that the manufacturing process is mastered and the performance and reliability of the component have been clearly characterized








*FRENCH*
Restera a trouver l’application qui permettra au GaN de prendre son envoi et d’assurer un plan de charge significatif a UMS. Par rapport au GaAs, qui s’était rapidement impose dans les telecommunications sans fil, le GaN presente moins de debouches potentiels dans le civil. Selon Xavier Grison, il faudra attendre au moins cinq ans avant de voir de premieres applications opera-tionnelles du GaN sur des systemes aeroportes.






*Faire évoluer Spectra.*

Mais le Rafale bénéficiera indéniablement de la technologie GaN à plus ou moins long terme. Déjà, un PEA baptisé InCas (Intégration de nouvelles capacités à Spectra) étudie le remplacement des émetteurs au GaAs actuels par des émetteurs au GaN. Dans le cadre de ce PEA, un démonstrateur d’émetteur Spectra au GaN est attendu fin 2014. Le gain potentiel se situe au niveau de l’augmentation de la puissance d’emission, du rendement et de la largeur de bande couverte.

Ici encore, la mise en production de tels systemes reste liee au timing des evolutions Rafale et n’est pas attendue avant la prochaine decennie. Encore plus futuriste, mais tout

aussi plausible : le remplacement des radars de pointe avant actuels par des antennes conformes, véritables “peaux” intelligentes qui pourraient être facilement disséminées sur la cellule et combineraient des fonctions radars, brouillage, communications...

A plus court terme, estime-t-on à la DGA, c’est du côté de brouilleurs terrestres anti-IED ou d’autres systèmes de leurrage que les composants GaN pourraient trouver leur première application opérationnelle. De son côté, l’industrie civile pourrait adhérer à la technologie pour développer des composants de puissance destinés aux stations de base pour téléphones mobiles, par exemple. Le secteur spatial est lui aussi intéressé : l’ESA et le Cnes ont contribué à financer certains développements autour du GaN et sa possible “spatialisation”, en vue d’une utilisation dans de futurs satellites de communication. En Europe, UMS est la seule chance de voir émerger une filière industrielle complètement indépendante dans le domaine du GaN. Le défi est d’importance puisque, comme ils l’avaient fait pour le GaAs, les Etats-Unis n’hésitent pas à appliquer un embargo sur les circuits au GaN.

Côté britannique, la fonderie RFMD (qui fournit entre autres les modules d’émission-réception utilisés par les radars AESA de Selex Galileo) a réussi à acquérir son indépendance dans le domaine du GaAs - mais n’affiche pas de volonté de développer une filière GaN en Europe.

Guillaume Steuer

*ENGLISH*

Will find the application that will allow GaN to make sending and ensure a significant workload UMS. Compared to GaAs, which was quickly needed in the wireless telecommunications, GaN presents fewer potential market outlets in civilian life. According to Xavier Grison, it will take at least five years before we see opera-tional First applications of GaN on airborne systems.

*Changing Spectra.*

But undeniably benefit the Rafale GaN technology in the longer term. Already a PEA called Incas (Integration of new capabilities to Spectra) examines the replacement of existing GaAs emitters by issuers GaN. As part of this PEA, a transmitter Spectra demonstrator GaN is expected end of 2014 the potential gain is at the increasing power of emission, performance and breadth of covered band.


Again, the commissioning of such systems remains bound to the timing of evolutions Rafale and is not expected until the next decade. Even more futuristic, but

also possible: replacing existing radars nose by antennas compliant real smart "skins" that could be easily spread over the cell and combine radar functions, jamming communications ...

In the shorter term, says do we DGA is on the side of anti-IED or other decoy systems that GaN components could find their first operational application terrestrial jammers. For its part, the civilian industry could join the technology to develop power components for base stations for mobile phones, for example. The space sector is also interested: ESA and CNES have helped fund some developments around the GaN and its possible "spatial", for use in future communications satellites. In Europe, UMS is the only chance to see the emergence of a completely independent industrial sector in the field of GaN. The challenge is important because, as they had done for GaAs, the United States did not hesitate to apply an embargo on GaN circuits.


British side, molding RFMD (which provides among other transceiver used by AESA radars from Selex Galileo modules) managed to gain independence in the field of GaAs - but displays no desire to develop a die GaN Europe.

William Steuer

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## hiphop

I made this video of French Dassault Rafale soon joining Indian Air Force
I hope you guys will like it  I am new in Video Editing
Subscribe to my Youtube channel

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## hiphop

@arp2041 @Abingdonboy @DRAY @Ravi Nair @nair @OrionHunter @sreekumar @TejasMk3 @gslv mk3 @Soumitra 
Check out my first video in post above

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## OrionHunter

hiphop said:


> I made this video of French Dassault Rafale soon joining Indian Air Force
> I hope you guys will like it  I am new in Video Editing
> Subscribe to my Youtube channel


Excellent stuff, man! Congrats for the fine work!

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## dray

hiphop said:


> I made this video of French Dassault Rafale soon joining Indian Air Force
> I hope you guys will like it  I am new in Video Editing
> Subscribe to my Youtube channel



AWESOME GRUESOME!!

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## kurup

hiphop said:


> I made this video of French Dassault Rafale soon joining Indian Air Force
> I hope you guys will like it  I am new in Video Editing
> Subscribe to my Youtube channel



Nice work mate .

@Abingdonboy : somebody is going to give you competition ....

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## SRP

'Complexity of procurement', 'Negotiations on'. Statement by Indian govt in Parliament today on the Rafale deal.


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## he-man

One more day,,,,one more rafale discussion.
sigh


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## Superboy

At 175 million a pop, it would be crazy to buy Rafale, a crappy plane with NO combat experience, not a single air to air kill, crappy ground attack performance over Libya in 2011, no foreign buyer, even France itself only bought token number of it.


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## Sergi

Superboy said:


> At 175 million a pop, it would be crazy to buy Rafale, a crappy plane with NO combat experience, not a single air to air kill, crappy ground attack performance over Libya in 2011, no foreign buyer, even France itself only bought token number of it.


Ok. We got it. Its inferior to your JF-17 with super-duper DSI tech. Just leave this thread alone will ya


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## he-man

It indeed is costly............i would have preferred just pakfa and then fgfa beginning from 2020 with newer engines.
But the time for that is long gone................we are left with no choice now


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## ejaz007

*India Talks To Buy French Fighter Jets Still On, Minister Says*

*NEW DELHI* — India’s talks to buy fighter jets from France’s Dassault Aviation in a 2012 deal worth $12 billion are still underway but are complex, Defence Minister Arun Jaitley has said.

India chose Dassault for “exclusive negotiations” for 126 Rafale jets, but successive deadlines to complete one of the world’s biggest airline contracts have slipped by.

“Given the complexity of the procurement case, the process of negotiations with Dassault Aviation on various aspects of the commercial proposal and provisions of draft contract is on,” Jaitley told parliament late Tuesday.

The cost of the deal was pegged at $12 billion but media reports have recently put it at around $15 billion.

Jaitley, named defense minister when the new right-wing government took power in May, was replying to a question in parliament about progress on the purchase.

India is in the midst of a $100-billion defense upgrade program.

Military experts say India urgently needs the twin-engine multi-role fighters to maintain a combat edge against nuclear rival Pakistan, with which it has fought three wars.

The Rafale, which would replace India’s Russian-made fleet of MiG-21 and MiG-27 planes, beat out rivals such as Boeing and Lockheed Martin.

Jaitley told parliament that the United States has overtaken Russia as the largest arms supplier to India in the last three years, followed by France and Israel.

The new government has raised the foreign investment cap on India’s defense industries to speed up modernization of the military.

The production-sharing deal agreed by the previous Congress government would see Dassault supply 18 Rafales by 2015 in a “ready to fly” state.

The remaining 108 would be made by state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd under technology transfer agreements with India, which is keen to boost homemade defense manufacturing.

In a boost for Dassault, the government last month said the deal complied fully with technology transfer requirements spelled out in the plane tender offer.

India Talks To Buy French Fighter Jets Still On, Minister Says | Defense News | defensenews.com


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## ejaz007

*India’s M-MRCA Fighter Competition: Order Cut Coming?*

*Latest Update:*

New defense minister discusses planned build schedule. But they still need a contract.

*Aug 8/14: Production Schedule.* Defence Minister Shri Arun Jaitley confirms the Rafale’s intended production schedule, in a written reply to questions from India’s Lok Sabha upper chamber:

“The 18 direct fly away aircraft are expected to be delivered in three to four years from the signing of the contract. The remaining 108 license manufactured aircraft in India are expected to be delivered during the following seven years.”

India’s M-MRCA Fighter Competition: Order Cut Coming?


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## greatone

Favour Tejas to Meet IAF Needs -The New Indian Express

Favour Tejas to Meet IAF Needs
By Bharat karnad

Published: 08th August 2014 06:00 AM

Last Updated: 08th August 2014 12:09 AM

Winston Churchill, as the First Lord of Admiralty in 1911, is credited with “technological prescience” by British commentators for building the 12-inch gunned Dreadnought-class battleships. When the First World War began, the Royal Navy’s Grand Fleet was the British force to keep Kaiser Wilhelm II’s seaward ambitions in check even as an unprepared army was mowed down by the German juggernaut, in the opening phase.

Remarkably, the Churchillian kind of prescience was manifest in Jawaharlal Nehru’s nursing a weapons-capable nuclear energy programme because he believed India could not afford to miss out on the “nuclear revolution” as it had done the “gun-powder revolution” consequenting in its enslavement. And, in the conventional military field, it was evident in his seeding an indigenous defence industry with combat aircraft design and development at its core. Nehru imported, not combat aircraft but, a leading combat aircraft designer—the redoubtable Kurt Tank, progenitor of the Focke-Wulfe warplanes for Hitler’s Luftwaffe. Tank succeeded in putting an HF-24 Marut prototype in the air by 1961 and in training a talented group of Indian designers at Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).

By the time the Tank-trained Raj Mahindra-led team designed the successor Marut Mark-II, Nehru was gone and neither Lal Bahadur Shastri nor his successor, Indira Gandhi, unfortunately had the strategic vision or technological prescience to provide political support for it. Indira permitted the purchase of the British Jaguar aircraft for low-level attack, leading to the termination of the Marut Mk-II optimised for the same mission. It ended the chance of India emerging early as an independent aerospace power in the manner Brazil and Israel have done in recent years. The inglorious era of importing military hardware was on. The resulting vendor-driven procurement system has decanted enormous wealth from India to arms supplier states—Russia, UK, France, the United States, Israel and Italy.

Arun Jaitley, the BJP finance minister-cum-defence minister, is saddled with the familiar problem of too many high-cost government programmes and too little money. He has an opportunity to reduce the huge hard currency expenditure involved in buying foreign armaments and reverse the policy of ignoring indigenous options and private sector defence industrial capability. He can give the lead to the Indian military as the British Treasury had done to the Admiralty in 1918-1938 by pushing for the development of aircraft carriers when the Royal Navy was stuck on the Dreadnought.

There are two far-seeing decisions he can take. With the US bid of $840 million for 150 M-777 light howitzers (without technology transfer) rejected as cost prohibitive, Jaitley can instruct the army to test and induct the modern, ultra-light heliportable gun, to outfit the new offensive mountain corps, produced jointly by a private sector company and an American firm, Rock Island Arsenal, that’ll cost less than half as much. And he could terminate the Rafale contract and, importantly, restore responsibility for the Tejas programme to the IAF, which was kept out of it by the science adviser—SA—to defence minister V S Arunachalam in the 1980s. It will mean IAF funding further developments in the Tejas programme from its own R&D budget which, according to an ex-senior defence technologist, can be increased to any amount, and was the course of action recommended by the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) and SA. It will render IAF accountable to Parliament.

The choices before the BJP government are stark. Is it pragmatic to channel in excess of $30 billion to Paris that’ll keep the French aerospace sector in clover and help amortise the multi-billion Euro investment in developing the Rafale, which has no customers other than IAF? Or, use the present difficulties as an opportunity to fundamentally restructure the Indian military aviation sector? This last will involve getting (1) HAL to produce the low-cost (`26 crore by HAL’s reckoning) Tejas Mk-1 for air defence with 4.5 generation avionics, low detection, and other features, for squadron service, and to export it in line with prime minister Narendra Modi’s thinking and to defray some of the plane’s development costs, and (2) ADA and the Aircraft Research & Design Centre at HAL to redesign Tejas Mark-2 as a genuine MMRCA with the originally conceived canard-delta wing configuration (whose absence has made the Mk-1 incapable of meeting onerous operational requirements, like acceleration and sustained turn rates in dogfights) and having it ready for production by 2019—the dateline for Rafale induction.

With the Rafale potentially out of the picture and IAF left with only a limited-capability Tejas for air defence, security needs for the next 15 years until the Russian Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft enters IAF in strength, can be met by buying additional Su-30s and MiG-29s off-the-shelf and/or contracting for larger numbers of the Su-30s to be built by HAL with a deal to get the private sector to manufacture the required spares in-country, all for a fraction of the cost of Rafale. Some Service brass do not care for Russian aircraft but Su-30MKI and MiG-29 are already in IAF’s employ, and are rated the two best warplanes available anywhere (barring the discontinued American F-22) for combat and air defence respectively. A new Su-30MKI, moreover, costs $65 million, which is slightly more than what India forks out for upgrading the 30-year-old Mirage 2000.

Had the design-wise more challenging canard-delta winged Tejas, recommended by four of the six international aviation majors hired as consultants, not been discarded and international best practices followed from when the Light Combat Aircraft programme was initiated in 1982, ADA (design bureau), HAL and IAF would have worked together. IAF would have inputted ideas at the design and prototype stages, HAL produced the prototypes, and IAF pilots flown them. The design validation and rectification, certification, pre-production, and production processes would then have been in sync and progressed apace. The Tejas air defence variant will have entered squadron service and the larger Mk-2, close behind, occupied the MMRCA slot. The lessons are that indigenous weapons projects demand integrated effort, weapons designers need to be less diffident and Indian military ought to helm indigenous armaments projects. Jaitley can ensure these things happen.

The author is professor at the Centre for Policy Research and blogs at Security Wise | Bharat Karnad – India's Foremost Conservative Strategist


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## Echo_419

Superboy said:


> At 175 million a pop, it would be crazy to buy Rafale, a crappy plane with NO combat experience, not a single air to air kill, crappy ground attack performance over Libya in 2011, no foreign buyer, even France itself only bought token number of it.



You forgot to add it does not have DSI

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## skynet

Superboy said:


> At 175 million a pop, it would be crazy to buy Rafale, a crappy plane with NO combat experience, not a single air to air kill, crappy ground attack performance over Libya in 2011, no foreign buyer, even France itself only bought token number of it.


What the heck is wrong with this guy


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## halloweene

skynet said:


> What the heck is wrong with this guy


Let him blow out hot air the "crappy A2G lybia" is in itself a jewel!

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## sancho

He is a troll that the Mods sadly allow to remain on the forum, just ignor him.

@halloweene 

Any news from Dassault side?


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## halloweene

Dunno, was on holiday sailing, away from internet!


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## sancho

halloweene said:


> Dunno, was on holiday sailing, away from internet!



Hehe, same here! I was hiking in Switzerland to get some days off of the net, but doesn't seem to have missed too much.


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## sancho

First fitting of SPEAR 3 prototypes to the EF:


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## C130

sancho said:


> First fitting of SPEAR 3 prototypes to the EF:



what's the info on that weapon?
so it takes up one hard point per missile?
you could have a rack of 4 SDB instead


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## sancho

C130 said:


> what's the info on that weapon?
> so it takes up one hard point per missile?
> you could have a rack of 4 SDB instead



It's an evolution of the Brimstone missile, with bigger warhead, retractable wings and will end up at quadpacks too:





In fact it's even likely that they will modify Brimstone 2 to be used as quadpacks with ejectors as well.


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## C130

nice...I like the Brimstone missile
pack 16 of those on a Rafale and you got some major firepower.


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## sancho

C130 said:


> nice...I like the Brimstone missile
> pack 16 of those on a Rafale and you got some major firepower.



That's not the Rafale, but the Eurofighter. Rafale won't get Brimstone because the Brits asked for too high integration costs and that might not be different with SPEAR 3 and that will be a mojor hit on Rafales future strike capability.


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## C130

I see.
maybe India might want to go for SDBI/II for it's Rafale's or go for SPEAR.


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## kaykay

sancho said:


> That's not the Rafale, but the Eurofighter. Rafale won't get Brimstone because the Brits asked for too high integration costs and that might not be different with SPEAR 3 and that will be a mojor hit on Rafales future strike capability.


Will IAF still need this once Brahmos-M is ready?


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## halloweene

sancho said:


> That's not the Rafale, but the Eurofighter. Rafale won't get Brimstone because the Brits asked for too high integration costs and that might not be different with SPEAR 3 and that will be a mojor hit on Rafales future strike capability.


Well i asked directly to Denis Mercier recelntly in Cazaux. lighter weapon than AASM 250 need is identified, technical specs are being written. Brimstone family is not excluded.

And no it would not be a back hand towards Rafale A2G capabilities. Spear should be cheaper (well Brimstone dual seeker isnt that cheaper to AASM btw), but less versatile than Hammer.


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## NairLand

kaykay said:


> Will IAF still need this once Brahmos-M is ready?



Its 1/15 the weight of Brahmos-M, covers 1/3 the distance with 1/3 the speed. 

But an A/C can carry 16 of these and can strike a moving target 100 km away at mach 1. Not bad at all.


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## sancho

C130 said:


> I see.
> maybe India might want to go for SDBI/II for it's Rafale's or go for SPEAR.



SPEAR 3 outperforms SDB because of the propulsion kit, which should increase range from high and low altitude launches. But the Israeli SPICE 250 should be the most likely choice if IAF wants other PGMs than the French once.



kaykay said:


> Will IAF still need this once Brahmos-M is ready?



SPEAR 3, SDB, or SPICE 250s are PGMs with extended range, not cruise missiles like Brahmos. They will be used in CAS or SEAD and with quadpacks on a single hardpoint, a fighter will be able to carry out multiple strikes in a single attack.



halloweene said:


> Well i asked directly to Denis Mercier recelntly in Cazaux. lighter weapon than AASM 250 need is identified, technical specs are being written. Brimstone family is not excluded.
> 
> Too little too late, they completelly failed with the development of AASM 125, by modifying just the warhead, instead of modifying the weapon kit itself. That's what SPEAR 3 is about and why it will give much more benefits than a simple upgrade of the Brimstone missile.
> 
> And no it would not be a back hand towards Rafale A2G capabilities. Spear should be cheaper (well Brimstone dual seeker isnt that cheaper to AASM btw), but less versatile than Hammer.



SPEAR 3 is far more versatile than AASM, since it offers more range than AASM 125 from high altitude and even more from low altitude launches. It can be carried in greater loadouts and even more aerodynamically at the centerline. With the multi mode seeker, it will be able to attack targets with different guidance possibilities, while AASM offer different seekers so far only in different nose kits, which means you can only have one or the other (Laser or IR).
As I said before, SPEAR 3 and CFTs are game changers for EF in terms of capabilities! An EF even with external fuel tanks and a centerline LDP, will be able to carry more 8 to 16 x SPEAR 3s compared to 6 to 8 x AASM 125 with Rafale (twin launcher at the centerline maybe), from even longer distance and the same single pass attack capability. So all the benefits Rafale/AASM has today over the EF, but in a more capable way! In CAS and SEAD, the EF will surpass Rafale with this weapon, but I don't expect SPEAR 3 to be very cheap, since it remains to be a missile mainly. The should have developed it with an optional propulsion kit, since the wingkit alone will give it a reasonable range extention.


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## NairLand

sancho said:


> SPEAR 3, SDB, or SPICE 250s are PGMs with extended range, not cruise missiles like Brahmos. They will be used in CAS or SEAD and with quadpacks on a single hardpoint, a fighter will be able to carry out multiple strikes in a single attack.



You are mistaken, Spear 3 is a cruise missile.


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## sancho

NairLand said:


> You are mistaken, Spear 3 is a cruise missile.



Not really, don't get into conclusions based on pics:

Missile systems, defence systems - MBDA missiles

It's a PGM with stand off capabilitilies, but far away from a cruise missile.


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## NairLand

sancho said:


> Not really, don't get into conclusions based on pics:
> 
> 
> It's a PGM with stand off capabilitilies, but far away from a cruise missile.



You mean the wings are just for show and not for gliding ?  

Where does it say PGM can't glide or cruise ? ....its large range and low weight is a clear indicator of its ability to cruise.


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## sancho

NairLand said:


> You mean the wings are just for show and not for gliding ?
> 
> Where does it say PGM can't glide or cruise ? ....its large range and low weight is a clear indicator of its ability to cruise.



Lol, so a wing kit makes it a cruise missile? You clearly are new and I suggest to inform yourself first before getting into conclusions. For starters:

Cruise missile - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Standoff (missile) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Btw, Brahmos has no wings to extend the range and is a cruise missile, just a hint.


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## NairLand

sancho said:


> Lol, so a wing kit makes it a cruise missile? You clearly are new and I suggest to inform yourself first before getting into conclusions. For starters:
> 
> Btw, Brahmos has no wings to extend the range and is a cruise missile, just a hint.



I am not as new as you might think  

You need to take a closer look at the link you have posted for Spear 3. Click on the data specs to understand the mechanism better. 

btw Brahmos has large wings that look like fins that is designed to fly at mach 3.  ..... a bit like mig 21, just a hint.


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## ANPP

NairLand said:


> I am not as new as you might think
> 
> You need to take a closer look at the link you have posted for Spear 3. Click on the data specs to understand the mechanism better.
> 
> btw Brahmos has large wings that look like fins that is designed to fly at mach 3.  ..... a bit like mig 21, just a hint.


 
Take it easy bro. He is just pdf exclaimed expert.

The main difference is that spear like missiles are made for pin-point accuracy, while cruise missiles for just destruction. Another profit of these missiles is that they are low cost compare to cruise missiles, can be fired in numbers, while providing greater range compare to PGMs.

But the most biggest advantage I think is that they can fired from a/c in any position. For launching the brahmose type missile you have to reduce speed, should achieve stable x-direction movement. Which is too much dangers if enemy fighters is near around

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## sancho

Google translated:



> *The Talios Thales pod future Rafale*
> 
> It will be called Talios, future laser designation pod that should be integrated into the Rafale 2018. Talios for Targeting Long Optronic Identification System, a system that was unveiled by the equipment manufacturer Thales at the Farnborough Airshow in July last. The successor of the Damocles pod should allow Rafale and Mirage 2000 to significantly increase their targeting capabilities and recognition. _"Putting the driver in the heart of the system"_ is one of the stated goals of Thales, who designed it in response to operational requirements. The display mode _"permanent view_ 'including a wider field of vision than that of Damocles, which should improve the detection capabilities of the planes that will ship this system. The pod incorporates an infrared sensor, a TV camera and an illuminator and a laser rangefinder. For a color display, high resolution, high definition, _"the Talios decrease the decision time while providing more complete information,"_ says one in the OEM, _"through optronics technologies, the pilot will be able to respond more quickly, which will shorten the decision loop._ " The pod will thus be able to identify both the small targets than directing air strikes basement _"high precision"._ The appreciation Talios lies between other in sharing information and data collected with the real-time transmission of ground-to-air, air-to-air and air-ground information is increasing _"the interaction between the troops ground and the pilot in flight._ " The pod next generation is able to find, fix, reach, target, engage a target, evaluate and share data, enabling improved protection. The integration of images from other sensors has also been studied, whether from a satellite or other platform. The _"plug and fight"_ system also acts as a model of _"robustness"_ in order _to "optimize performance and maintenance, to ensure optimal readiness,"_ according to Thales. Requirements made by the Air Force and the Navy, but could also be an argument for export, the OEM with the Talios as an integrable equipment on _"all current and future systems."_ The DGA had notified the contract raising risks for the development of Talios in January 2013, before awarding the development contract in late December 2013 The characterization of laser designation pod new generation is expected in mid-2018, for be on board the Rafale F3 standard R. The car should be embarked on Mirage 2000D in 2016 for first flight tests. The Act provides for the 2014-2019 military programming order for 20 laser designation pods and delivery of 16 aircraft between 2018 and 2019.



Le Talios de Thales, futur pod du Rafale - Défense ::: Le Journal de l'Aviation


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## Storm Force

Is this happening....

I predicted it may not happen over 18 months ago. To due huge cost and falling rupee value.

A lot of Indian members seemed disgusted at my fears are stil there.

And no deal is close

Today hundteds of posts later my


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## C130

Storm Force said:


> Is this happening....
> 
> I predicted it may not happen over 18 months ago. To due huge cost and falling rupee value.
> 
> A lot of Indian members seemed disgusted at my fears are stil there.
> 
> And no deal is close
> 
> Today hundteds of posts later my



I wonder if the French are the ones having second thoughts.


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## Storm Force

French wil constraint on UAE orders they have cash and wont mess about with hassle of offset claueses and tot. India is Pussy footing about it is embaressing


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## Abingdonboy

*India Said to Target Signing Rafale Fighter Jet Deal by End 2014*
_India aims to sign the contract for the world’s biggest order of fighter jets in about two decades with Dassault Aviation SA (AM) by the end of the year, two Indian air force officials familiar with the matter said today.[...]_
More:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-0...-end-2014.html

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## Echo_419

Abingdonboy said:


> *India Said to Target Signing Rafale Fighter Jet Deal by End 2014*
> _India aims to sign the contract for the world’s biggest order of fighter jets in about two decades with Dassault Aviation SA (AM) by the end of the year, two Indian air force officials familiar with the matter said today.[...]_
> More:
> http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-0...-end-2014.html



December is not far let's see,hope they don't delay the thing again


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## sancho

> *German-led European consortium comes up with a cheaper proposal for its Euro fighter Typhoon*
> 
> The world's biggest defence deal is in danger of becom-ing one of the slowest in his-tory. More than two years after India zeroed in on the French Rafale fighter jet-after a tor-tured 11-year selection process-to replace its ageing MiG-21s, the Ger-man-led European consortium which was the runner-up in the race has sought to restart the dogfight by offer-ing a new, cheaper proposal for its Eurofighter Typhoon. The Narendra Modi Government, INDIA TODAY has learnt, is studying the German proposal even as Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) has been nego-tiating with France's Dassault, the maker of the Rafale, to finalise agree-ments to produce the aircraft in India. The Rafale deal for 126 jets is esti-mated to cost 20 billion euros (Rs.1.6 lakh crore) over the next decade and is considered the biggest global de-fence tender.
> Representatives of the German government met leaders of the BJP regime in June, within weeks of the latter coming to power, and the talks culminated in a new commercial pro-posal that seeks to undercut the French bid. The new German offer could bring down the total value of the contract by Rs.20,000 crore over its 10-year duration. The scale of the "discount"-formally offered in early July to Defence Minister Arun Jait-ley-was substantial enough to create ripples at the very top of the Govern-ment, with Prime Minister Narendra Modi also being apprised about the development, sources said...



German-led European consortium comes up with a cheaper proposal for its Euro fighter Typhoon : DEFENCE - India Today


Not sure how reliable the source is, but interesting if there was such a proposal.


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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> German-led European consortium comes up with a cheaper proposal for its Euro fighter Typhoon : DEFENCE - India Today
> 
> 
> Not sure how reliable the source is, but interesting if there was such a proposal.


What have they been doing for the past two years? Sat around with their thumbs up their backsides? IF they are in a position to make a cheaper bid now then they should have in the initial closed bid submission. It would wholly improper for the GoI/MoD to now turn around and accept the L2's revised bid and would rightly leave the MoD/GoI open to being held hostage in every other open bidding process it has. Once a closed bid is submitted that is the end of the matter, there simply can be no going back by either entrant (L1/2) otherwise this would undermine the entire selection process.


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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> What have they been doing for the past two years? Sat around with their thumbs up their backsides? IF they are in a position to make a cheaper bid now then they should have in the initial closed bid submission. It would wholly improper for the GoI/MoD to now turn around and accept the L2's revised bid and would rightly leave the MoD/GoI open to being held hostage in every other open bidding process it has. Once a closed bid is submitted that is the end of the matter, there simply can be no going back by either entrant (L1/2) otherwise this would undermine the entire selection process.



They had given a bid, which they thought was reasonable for their product, but turned out to not be good enough. Now there is a new government, which they want to approach and if the deal still was on the line of the original RFP and the initial bids, they wouldn't had a chance to re-bid now, but it isn't and that can be a chance for them.
It doesn't matter if it's "inpropper" or not, all that matters is, that India gets the best deal in return for it's money! One can also say it was inpropper of Dassault to keep fighting about things that they knew about since 2007, or that they needed 2 years to comply to the offset/ToT requirements.
As I said earlier, it's only up to the MoD if they want to re-evaluate the bids / evaluation results according to the new delivery timeframe or if there are inconsistencies in the Rafale offer.

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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> They had given a bid, which they thought was reasonable for their product, but turned out to not be good enough. Now there is a new government, which they want to approach and if the deal still was on the line of the original RFP and the initial bids, they wouldn't had a chance to re-bid now, but it isn't and that can be a chance for them.
> It doesn't matter if it's "inpropper" or not, all that matters is, that India gets the best deal in return for it's money! One can also say it was inpropper of Dassault to keep fighting about things that they knew about since 2007, or that they needed 2 years to comply to the offset/ToT requirements.
> As I said earlier, it's only up to the MoD if they want to re-evaluate the bids / evaluation results according to the new delivery timeframe or if there are inconsistencies in the Rafale offer.


I'm sorry sir but if you had it Your way, that is the deal went to EFT based on this new revised bid be selected because they have now come to a lower price, not only would this be a pretty unjustifiable move as far as the Rafale vs EFT is concerned and which is the better plane/most suited to the IAF's needs, but this would put every single multi-bidder open tender of India's on the line and would add years to every single procurement. By not respecting the sanctity of the closed bidding system the MoD/GoI would be going against every established global norm and opening the door to every losing bidder to throw themselves back in the ring and thus add years upon years to all such procurements.

So EFT gets selected, let alone the IAF having to wait another 2-3 years for their new planes (time the IAF doesn't have) but who's to say Dassualt doesn't come back with a bid that undercuts the revised EFT bid and EFT then comes back with a revised revised bid and so on and so forth? This is the kind of circus you are inviting sir.



The fact there is a new GoI is immaterial, the MMRCA has thus far been 100% free of political interference. The IAF should get what's best for them not what the politicians deem best. I actually don't see Modi/GoI getting involved in this and taking a look at any of the crazy stories coming out from EFT, SAAB etc about the MMRCA- the IAF has made their case, they are looking foreword to the Rafale in 3 years time and the Rafale has been selected. At no point in time has the new GoI made any indication the Rafale's selection was being question or that any other party was being engaged vis a vis the MMRCA procurement- rathe the opposite, and I had feared that Modi just might do something as silly as that.


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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> I'm sorry sir but if you had it our way, that is the deal went to EFT based on this new revised would be selected because they have now come to a lower price, not only would this be a pretty unjustifiable move as far as the Rafale vs EFT is concerned and which is the better plane/most suited to the IAF's needs, but this would put every single multi-bidder open tender of India's on the line and would add years to every single procurement.



First of all, you can't tell which fighter is more suitable or which offer is better, without knowing the timeframes or the offers itself. They might be able to cut the cost, but still could be more expensive (which I believe), while they can deliver fighters faster to deal with the shortfalls of squads and can offer more industrial and even technical benefits in return. So it's only a matter of what they actually offer and how worth it is compared to the costs!
Secondly, this has nothing to do with other competitions, but the simple fact that a new bid would only be considered if there are reasons for it within the competition, not because 1 vendor proposes a new bid. The change now is not that they cut costs, but that there is a new government that can change the prioirities of the competition (as seen in Brazil) and that the initial time frames can't be met anymore. So if something effects the competition, things can be changed and that is within the rights of the government. Take the tanker competition, that needed to be re-issued, because the Finance Ministry rejected the first result based on costs. MoD had to change the competition and even invited Boeing to be part again, the fact that the A330 won again, was only based on the fact that it offered the best cost / benefit ratio. And even if the MoD now would review the shortlistings under different priorities or timeframes, Rafale still could come out as the most suitable choice. 



Abingdonboy said:


> So EFT gets selected, let alone the IAF having to wait another 2-3 years for their new planes



That only depends on the contrac we sign, the EF is the fastest choice today for us to get fighters. We could get a full squadron of T3As within the next 2 years if we want, which basically is dependen on how fast we can train pilots and build up ground support. The first T3B squadron with AESA would be available at the same time as we get the first Rafale F3+ squadron, by late 2017 / early 2018. 



Abingdonboy said:


> The IAF should get what's best for them not what the politicians deem best.



Not at all, since this deal is not only about IAF, they only need to get something that suits their requirement, not necessarily the best or the costliest. The overall benefit of the package is that counts, which includes industrial benefits as well and the MoD has to consider both in comparison to the total costs. The "offer" that gives India the most in return must win!



Abingdonboy said:


> At no point in time has the new GoI made any indication the Rafale's selection was being question



No, but they neither openly supported the selection nor rejected any of the publically debated issues. The only official statement that we have seen was, of the DM recently, that the negotiations with Dassault are going on, which is logical as they are the only participant in negotiations right now, but they never stated that there are no issues about the costs, nor that they the Rafale will remain the only choice under consideration. So they let both options open and by talking to the Germans and the Brits after the election, a possible new proposal surely came up at some point. But as said, it's all within the rights of the new MoD to change things, if they feel it's better for India and at least re-thinking what changes came in the meantime is not wrong.

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## Echo_419

sancho said:


> They had given a bid, which they thought was reasonable for their product, but turned out to not be good enough. Now there is a new government, which they want to approach and if the deal still was on the line of the original RFP and the initial bids, they wouldn't had a chance to re-bid now, but it isn't and that can be a chance for them.
> It doesn't matter if it's "inpropper" or not, all that matters is, that India gets the best deal in return for it's money! One can also say it was inpropper of Dassault to keep fighting about things that they knew about since 2007, or that they needed 2 years to comply to the offset/ToT requirements.
> As I said earlier, it's only up to the MoD if they want to re-evaluate the bids / evaluation results according to the new delivery timeframe or if there are inconsistencies in the Rafale offer.



Doesn't matter now,by the time w finalize the deal with the EF 4th gen fighters will become outdated & the deal with dassult is close to being signed,no way we should mess it up


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## ANPP

Echo_419 said:


> Doesn't matter now,by the time w finalize the deal with the EF 4th gen fighters will become outdated & the deal with dassult is close to being signed,no way we should mess it up


 
They want to make sure that next time French doesn't reject their proposal......nothing else.


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## sancho

Echo_419 said:


> Doesn't matter now,by the time w finalize the deal with the EF 4th gen fighters will become outdated & the deal with dassult is close to being signed,no way we should mess it up



Both be it the EF, or the Rafale belong to the most advanced fighters available today, so they won't be outdated for a long time. I also don't think the EF will win, even if the MoD would do a reconsideration, because the cost will remain to be a problem, but that doesn't mean we should not think about it or should ignor facts that changes for the one or the other reasons. The deal is delayed beyond the initial plans, Dassault can't offer certain things today that they promised in their initial bid without adding extra costs, the EF has gotten better to an extend and offers very interesting options in the future. So if we look beyond personal preferences and for the best for India, one at least has to include these changes in the evaluation and then take a decision.

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## Echo_419

sancho said:


> Both be it the EF, or the Rafale belong to the most advanced fighters available today, so they won't be outdated for a long time. I also don't think the EF will win, even if the MoD would do a reconsideration, because the cost will remain to be a problem, but that doesn't mean we should not think about it or should ignor facts that changes for the one or the other reasons. The deal is delayed beyond the initial plans, Dassault can't offer certain things today that they promised in their initial bid without adding extra costs, the EF has gotten better to an extend and offers very interesting options in the future. So if we look beyond personal preferences and for the best for India, one at least has to include these changes in the



I am all for that Indian should get the best,but you tell me how long will it take us to negotiate the entire deal & then tell me we should even consider EF proposition


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## sancho

Echo_419 said:


> I am all for that Indian should get the best,but you tell me how long will it take us to negotiate the entire deal & then tell me we should even consider EF proposition



Nobody can tell you that, it might be even faster, since big companies like Airbus or BAE have a much larger base of relations to the Indian industry than Dassault has. They might even find it easier to fix offsets, maybe they even work faster as Dassault did (and 2 years is definitely not a sign for fast procedure), but then again we might get the fighters earlier too, so depending on what is more important to the MoD, the one or the other might be preferable.


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## Echo_419

sancho said:


> Nobody can tell you that, it might be even faster, since big companies like Airbus or BAE have a much larger base of relations to the Indian industry than Dassault has. They might even find it easier to fix offsets, maybe they even work faster as Dassault did (and 2 years is definitely not a sign for fast procedure), but then again we might get the fighters earlier too, so depending on what is more important to the MoD, the one or the other might be preferable.



That's one Big A$$ IF we are talking about,never mind i think that we should not reevaluate the whole thing which will cause loss of time & money,not to forget it will send a bad example


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## sancho

Echo_419 said:


> That's one Big A$$ IF we are talking about,never mind i think that we should not reevaluate the whole thing which will cause loss of time & money,not to forget it will send a bad example


 
You don't have to re-evaluate everything, only inlcude the changes in the latest bids. That's what we had done at the end in the tanker competition too.


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## Bang Galore

Echo_419 said:


> That's one Big A$$ IF we are talking about,never mind i think that we should not reevaluate the whole thing which will cause loss of time & money,not to forget it will send a bad example



The figure being quoted is 20000 crores as difference. I'm not sure we should worry about setting a bad example.......what kind of example would you set if 20000 crores didn't matter.... It is not as difficult as you imagine to reset the contract. The life cycle calculations have always been confusing & more than one expert including some senior BJP politicians have questioned it. The GoI can raise doubts on the calculations and ask for recalculations of the figure asking both to submit figures again in whatever format is chosen. Allows for both parties to rethink their figures _(important that the French too get a 2nd chance with their figures)_. Committing economic suicide has not been an idea I favour, a difference of Rs.20000 crores is huge especially when you consider that the IAF's entire capital expenses budget for the year is about that figure.

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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> That's what we had done at the end in the tanker competition too.


That's not true. The original tanker competition was scrapped, a new one initiated about 1 year later. So for your suggestion to be feasible the IAF would have to scrap the MMRCA procurement and re-bid it? I'm sorry sir but no matter what way you look at it EFT's revised figures are meaningless and immaterial- the Rafale was selected because EFT 's bid at the time was higher END OF STORY. You can't simply turn around after the date and say "we will now change our bid", this defeats the whole purpose of a CLOSED BID process and undermines the entire MMRCA selection process to date.

Letting the EFT back in now would be opening a can of worms the IAF cannot afford.


It simply won't happen, on paper/in an idealistic person's mind it might seem like a good idea to get the best for India but looking at the big picture it would only hurt India and other defence procurements.


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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> That's not true. The original tanker competition was scrapped, a new one initiated about 1 year later. So for your suggestion to be feasible the IAF would have to scrap the MMRCA procurement and re-bid it?



Only because MoD tried to get Boeing into the competition, because their tanker would had fulfilled the requirements too, which either would had forced the Airbus to lower their own cost or had opened a 2nd real MRTT as an option. The point however is, there was no complete new evalutaion, they only included the life cycle calculation to the new bids and then took a decision.
In the MMRCA we already know that only 2 fighters fulfill the requirements and even in 2018 that won't change, since the Gripen doesn't get better, nor was any upgrade funded yet for the F18SH, so all MoD has to do again is, to re-evaluate the results of the EF and Rafale, under the new delivery timeline and the changes that now came up and then get to a new L1 and L2 decision.



Abingdonboy said:


> You can't simply turn around after the date and say "we will now change our bid", this defeats the whole purpose of a CLOSED BID process and undermines the entire MMRCA selection process to date.



Again you stick to the bids, which is not the important point here! The real issue is, the delays that does not clear delivery according to the RFP and the fact that there are changes that must be considered if the bids still comply to the RFP or if additonal cost must be added. IRST was included in the Rafale bid initially, but by then it was under production. Now they want to divert the production to Samtel as part of the ToT / offset offer, but who funds the set up of this new production line? Dassault doesn't because French forces don't buy the IRST anymore, that means this ammount of money must be added to the bid. Same goes for the not available Damocles XF, contrary to the initial bid. Not to mention that if there is an issue in the life cycle cost calculation (according to the article based on IAFs side), they had to reconsider it anyway and till then the bids might need to be re-newed anyway.



Abingdonboy said:


> Letting the EFT back in now would be opening a can of worms the IAF cannot afford.



But it's not IAF's call to make and MoD has to look at the bigger picture not only on what IAF wants. If we did what IAF wanted, we just had ordered more M2Ks while the government wanted more benefits for the Indian industry too.



Abingdonboy said:


> it would only hurt India and other defence procurements.



How does it hurt India when we would get a better deal, or more fighters in a faster way, or more industrial maybe even development benefits?


----------



## Echo_419

Bang Galore said:


> The figure being quoted is 20000 crores as difference. I'm not sure we should worry about setting a bad example.......what kind of example would you set if 20000 crores didn't matter.... It is not as difficult as you imagine to reset the contract. The life cycle calculations have always been confusing & more than one expert including some senior BJP politicians have questioned it. The GoI can raise doubts on the calculations and ask for recalculations of the figure asking both to submit figures again in whatever format is chosen. Allows for both parties to rethink their figures _(important that the French too get a 2nd chance with their figures)_. Committing economic suicide has not been an idea I favour, a difference of Rs.20000 crores is huge especially when you consider that the IAF's entire capital expenses budget for the year is about that figure.



This would set a bad example becuz opening & closing tenders like these are bad for business,they could have given this improved offer many years ago what were these guys doing all these days.Just imagine if other Arms companies did the same with all tenders then we can say bye bye to our modernization efforts



sancho said:


> You don't have to re-evaluate everything, only inlcude the changes in the latest bids. That's what we had done at the end in the tanker competition too.



Still even with Mr modi i don't trust the Indian Bureaucracy enough or this can be a pressure tactic on Dassult to transfer more TOT


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## Bang Galore

Echo_419 said:


> This would set a bad example becuz opening & closing tenders like these are bad for business,they could have given this improved offer many years ago what were these guys doing all these days.Just imagine if other Arms companies did the same with all tenders then we can say bye bye to our modernization efforts



The sheer quantum involved here requires a relook. In any case, this is a prime case for the CAG to comment on _(life cycle costing etc), _so politicans will deal with this carefully. If L2 is offering us a 20000 crore advantage, we simly cannot overlook that for a technical view of things.


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## Echo_419

Bang Galore said:


> The sheer quantum involved here requires a relook. In any case, this is a prime case for the CAG to comment on _(life cycle costing etc), _so politicans will deal with this carefully. If L2 is offering us a 20000 crore advantage, we simly cannot overlook that for a technical view of things.



Well let's hope they select either one of them fast & if we selected EF French are gonna be Pissed


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## sancho

Echo_419 said:


> This would set a bad example becuz opening & closing tenders like these are bad for business



Actually we already have the (bad) reputation around the world, to open, scrap and re-issues tenders over and over again, so that would not be the problem, especially if there are propper reasons to do so, like the changes I mentioned earlier.


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## trident2010

20000 crores is a large sum. Get Typhoon if we can save this money.


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## YouGotRouged

A lot of people are creating a fuss over the cost savings of 20,000 crores ($3.3 billion USD if I am not mistaken) in favor of the Eurofighter. Consider this; so many have flown the Eurofighter, that if any potential enemy wants to understand the strengths and weaknesses of this aircraft, all they have to do is organize exercises with a friendly country that does fly it. For example, (before anyone accuses me of flinging dirt, I am just pointing the obvious and not saying this with the intention of trolling), if Pakistan wants to get a relative idea of what the 30MKI's are capable of all they need to do is fly to China (as they have done so in the recent past), if India had EFs, all they would need to do is organize the same with Saudi Arabia. 

However while the chances of Saudis letting anyone else take a peek at their EFs (considering that they are partners in the program and have modified it somewhat to their own specs) are slim, it does reduce the potential advantage by a certain degree (debatable) of planning tactics and strategies with this kind of a plane considering how much closer Pakistan is to Saudi Arabia than India. Now the Rafale is flown by no one else save France, and reports are doubtful of sales to another country except India, so the tactics and strategies developed will be exclusive only to the Indians. Is exclusivity in tactics and strategy in order to retain aerial superiority worth $3.3 billion USD??.....So much more in my opinion.....


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## MST

Bill_Maher said:


> A lot of people are creating a fuss over the cost savings of 20,000 crores ($3.3 billion USD if I am not mistaken) in favor of the Eurofighter. Consider this; so many have flown the Eurofighter, that if any potential enemy wants to understand the strengths and weaknesses of this aircraft, all they have to do is organize exercises with a friendly country that does fly it. For example, (before anyone accuses me of flinging dirt, I am just pointing the obvious and not saying this with the intention of trolling), if Pakistan wants to get a relative idea of what the 30MKI's are capable of all they need to do is fly to China (as they have done so in the recent past), if India had EFs, all they would need to do is organize the same with Saudi Arabia.
> 
> However while the chances of Saudis letting anyone else take a peek at their EFs (considering that they are partners in the program and have modified it somewhat to their own specs) are slim, it does reduce the potential advantage by a certain degree (debatable) of planning tactics and strategies with this kind of a plane considering how much closer Pakistan is to Saudi Arabia than India. Now the Rafale is flown by no one else save France, and reports are doubtful of sales to another country except India, so the tactics and strategies developed will be exclusive only to the Indians. Is exclusivity in tactics and strategy in order to retain aerial superiority worth $3.3 billion USD??.....So much more in my opinion.....



What is a guarantee that French will not sell the Rafale to a third nation? They are negotiating deal with Qatar. 

Even if they don't sell your point doesn't stand its ground. If it did then we should immediately scrap our Su 30 since Chinese have hundreds of them or their copies.

$3 billion dollars is a lot of money. Govt should focus on national interests and not some niceties. 
Also the Eurofighter upgrades (e.g. Captor E) will make it way ahead of Rafale.


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## Bang Galore

This whole deal has become such a mess. How the heck does someone suddenly come in with a Rs.20000 crore saving? Reiterates a point I have been making from long - cost parameters should have been an issue right from the very beginning. No matter what price this deal is struck at & no matter what aircraft they finally choose, this deal has become an absolute mess. The French should be told to _*better *_EF's offer _(now that it seems we are committed to either EF or Rafale on technical grounds)_ or take a walk. There should be no way whatsoever that the French should simply get the deal at whatever cost they propose.


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## bloo

Bang Galore said:


> This whole deal has become such a mess. How the heck does someone suddenly come in with a Rs.20000 crore saving? Reiterates a point I have been making from long - cost parameters should have been an issue right from the very beginning. No matter what price this deal is struck at & no matter what aircraft they finally choose, this deal has become an absolute mess. The French should be told to _*better *_EF's offer _(now that it seems we are committed to either EF or Rafale on technical grounds)_ or take a walk. There should be no way whatsoever that the French should simply get the deal at whatever cost they propose.



I think its too late for that.
Our negotiators already had to climb mountains with their fat bellies just to get 1 deal done, another one with the same questions of life cycle costs, total price, spare parts availability, EF accountability, ToT and god knows what else will take them another 3 years.


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## YouGotRouged

MST said:


> What is a guarantee that French will not sell the Rafale to a third nation? They are negotiating deal with Qatar.
> 
> Even if they don't sell your point doesn't stand its ground. If it did then we should immediately scrap our Su 30 since Chinese have hundreds of them or their copies.
> 
> $3 billion dollars is a lot of money. Govt should focus on national interests and not some niceties.
> Also the Eurofighter upgrades (e.g. Captor E) will make it way ahead of Rafale.




Yes you are correct about the Qatar thing, it escaped my notice. However they do not engage with Pakistan as much as Saudi does, and in any case they will take a while to push the flight envelope and build strategies to share much after India does. However if this additional saving in 3.3 billion comes with complete ToT on critical technologies, then I may change my opinion, however ultimately the decision lies in the hands of the MoD...


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## trident2010

$20bn is a lot of money and we don't have to spend it without looking at every option. If we can save $3bn by purchasing Typhoon then by all means go for it or ask Rafale to match the offer. If still in doubt then get all the MKI's to urgent super upgrade and purchase additional 100+ super Sukohi and push for LCA MK2 for timely induction.

We just don't have a luxury to spend $20bn without making sure that we are getting every pence worth of it.

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## DrSomnath999

*Deadly Dassault Rafale*

An old but very interesting article
download the link
http://www.vayuaerospace.in/images1/Selected_pdf/DeadlyDassaultRafale.pdf

Some of the best part of this source

*rafale's low rcs demonsrtrations*











*2 squadrons would provide cover entire india airspace*









Surely this is interesting as many critics who are claiming that MMRCA took very long time & by 2020 only 1 & 1/2 squadron of rafale would be inducted so what major
difference would that number make in future battle but we should rather save money for LCA mark2 & concentrate on PAK-FA

but neither of them i think gonna be inducted by that time at best Pakfa 1/2 squadron at best could be inducted by 2020

so by 2020 existing fleet Super Su -30 mki with only 2 squadrons of Rafale could cover entire indian airspace .IMO india should rather dont install ZHUK -AE radar on Super SU 30 plane as it max range more or less same with RBE 2 aesa radar but rather install pak-fa tikhomirov NIIP AESA radar on SU 30 as it would act like an MINI AWACS platform can guide Rafale which is in passive mode to it's target from a standoff range .

BTW no news yet about KS 100 novator missile yet


*CHEERS*

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## Abingdonboy

German fighter jets unable to fly and mechanics forced to borrow spare parts, claims magazine - Telegraph


The EFT program is really just a mess- some member nations pay for parts of the EFT's capability road map to be implemented in a piecemeal manner, other member nations are unable to keep their jets serviceable and are trying to cut the number of EFTs they have on order etc etc 

India would do well to stay away from this chaos otherwise it will be sucked into the fray and forced to throw untold millions down the drain to get a somewhat capable fighter that , in 5 years, will be as capable as the Rafale was 4 years ago (relatively).

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## sancho

trident2010 said:


> 20000 crores is a large sum. Get Typhoon if we can save this money.



We don't save money compared to the Rafale offer, they might have reduced their price compared to their own initial offer and might be closer to the Rafale offer now. But money is not the issue, but what you get in return! With the right offer, even a more expensive EF can win, or at least let the MoD re-evaluate the situation.




DrSomnath999 said:


> *Deadly Dassault Rafale*



Pretty strange conclusions in the article, Rafale would never be used for top cover MKIs, because the capabilities of the fighters would be far better used the other way around.



Abingdonboy said:


> to get a somewhat capable fighter that , in 5 years, will be as capable as the Rafale was 4 years ago (relatively).



Actually, the point is not when the EF T3B with AESA will arrive anymore (early version could be available 2016, fully operational one by 2018), but that it might surpass even the Rafale F3R by 2018 in many fields. 
AESA detection range and FoV, CAS by 2018 and with SPEAR 3 it also will be far superior in SEAD. So can IAF compromise on getting inferior T3As by 2016 an compared to Rafale F3+ by 2018, to get superior EF T3Bs by 2018 compared to Rafale F3Rs? Sure, but can MoD compromise on the high costs??? That's the real question!


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## halloweene

*France, UAE Close In on Spy Sat Deal*

France, UAE Close In on Spy Sat Deal | Defense News | defensenews.com

*As usual conflicting reports...*


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## sancho

halloweene said:


> *France, UAE Close In on Spy Sat Deal*
> 
> France, UAE Close In on Spy Sat Deal | Defense News | defensenews.com
> 
> *As usual conflicting reports...*



They will continue to milk any benefit out of France for the favour of buying Rafales. What about the Qataris, any changes on their side?


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## halloweene

The only answer i could get is "there is still work to be done" Sancho...


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## Capt.Popeye

sancho said:


> Pretty strange conclusions in the article, Rafale would never be used for top cover MKIs, because the capabilities of the fighters would be far better used the other way around.




Nothing strange there at all. It says that the _'MKIs will fly top cover to the Rafales'_. Just read the highlighted parts of @DrSomnath999's post#9936.
And there is more in the original article which appeared in _Vayu_; how the MKI/Rafale combo will actually operate in tandem.


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## rockstarIN

sancho said:


> They will continue to milk any benefit out of France for the favour of buying Rafales. What about the Qataris, any changes on their side?



Don't you think we are not as good negotiators as UAE as they extract plenty from these baniya French?


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## The Unnamed

guys, be careful about what you discuss. thank you all for making it such a great thread. Hate to sound like it, hope you will not mind this post. Goes for all the stickys in indian defence forum.


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## kaykay

Defence News - IAF can’t afford delay in Rafale deal : IAF Chief

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## Sahasranama

rockstarIN said:


> Don't you think we are not as good negotiators as UAE as they extract plenty from these baniya French?



In defence deals we are not good negotiators because the user and the buyer and the strategic thinkers and the suppliers are all separate entities with little commonality of purpose. 

IAF does not care about the cost of the a/c, HAL does not care about the cost of the a/c, the actual buyers (babu's) are concerned about the cost but does not care about the absorption of technology or the time frame of delivery, HAL does not care about the time frame or quality or customer, it only cares about its survival, the strategic thinkers are too loft and does not get into the nitty gritty of negotiations. 

The cumulative effect of this culture of "mera kya" is a situation where the seller can take advantage of our lethargy, ignorance and indifference to extract the best deal for themselves. 

That is why ALL defence purchase in India is so expensive.

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## sancho

Capt.Popeye said:


> Nothing strange there at all. It says that the _'MKIs will fly top cover to the Rafales'_. Just read the highlighted parts of @DrSomnath999's post#9936.
> And there is more in the original article which appeared in _Vayu_; how the MKI/Rafale combo will actually operate in tandem.



True my fault misread the part, but the article remains with strange conclusions, because India will never gain air superiority with just 2 squadrons of Rafale, even with AWACS support (that still needs to come in a useful manner, while our opponents already have the advantage there). IAF will always will need the MKI, while the Rafale and force multipliers surely will increase their capability, but we simply are not facing easy opponents like the NATO does in most cases.



halloweene said:


> The only answer i could get is "there is still work to be done" Sancho...



Sad for Rafale, the reports before the summer sounded rather positive for Qatar, however that's good for India though, since the fighters in 2016/17 would still be free for us.


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## sancho

rockstarIN said:


> Don't you think we are not as good negotiators as UAE as they extract plenty from these baniya French?



They use their advantages, we use ours, but the situation is different there. The UAE is a prime market for French arms and techs, with close political ties. There is hardly competition other than some of the US and that's a huge advantage that the French obviously don't want to lose. That's why they will bow more or more easy to UAE demands to remain in an exclusive relation.
In India they are facing tough competitions, which we are using to get the most in return for us and with our markets open for the US now, their situation got only more difficult than it already was with Russians, Israelis and other European competitors. Sadly, the French are not following the example of the Russians (and partially Israelis), to counter competitions by going for joint developments and secure a major share in India.


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## rockstarIN

sancho said:


> They use their advantages, we use ours, but the situation is different there. The UAE is a prime market for French arms and techs, with close political ties. There is hardly competition other than some of the US and that's a huge advantage that the French obviously don't want to lose. That's why they will bow more or more easy to UAE demands to remain in an exclusive relation.
> In India they are facing tough competitions, which we are using to get the most in return for us and with our markets open for the US now, their situation got only more difficult than it already was with Russians, Israelis and other European competitors. Sadly, the French are not following the example of the Russians (and partially Israelis), to counter competitions by going for joint developments and secure a major share in India.



I disagree, the only +ve Rafale have is not putting all the eggs in one basket. They love F-16s and will order more F-16s. If there is hardly any competition, it should ideally help France not to give more concessions.


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## sancho

rockstarIN said:


> I disagree, the only +ve Rafale have is not putting all the eggs in one basket. They love F-16s and will order more F-16s. If there is hardly any competition, it should ideally help France not to give more concessions.



The F16 has nothing to do with the Mirage replacement, but so far there is no competition there, the UAE are only threatening the French to consider the EF or US fighters, to gain more advantages from the French. That's the difference to the Indian situation, where there are only exclusive negotiations with Dassault, after the competition was done and Rafale was actually shortlisted as the prefered choice.
Btw, they love their Mirage 2000-9 even more than the F16s, because it offers them the freedom to add more capable systems and even their own weapons now, which is why they constantly keep upgrading them. They don't have to replace them and considering Rafale now, is just a favour towards the French, which puts the UAE in an excellent position to negotiate.


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## halloweene

rockstarIN said:


> I disagree, the only +ve Rafale have is not putting all the eggs in one basket. They love F-16s and will order more F-16s. If there is hardly any competition, it should ideally help France not to give more concessions.


So why did they use their Mirage 2000-9 in order to bomb Lybia instead of F-16?

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## thesolar65

India's air force chief says French fighter jet deal close - Yahoo Finance
*India's air force chief says French fighter jet deal close*

Mine is 9951st post. Hope after 49 posts this sticky thread will come to a close!!
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/indias-air-force-chief-says-french-fighter-jet-062337927--finance.html


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## rockstarIN

halloweene said:


> So why did they use their Mirage 2000-9 in order to bomb Lybia instead of F-16?



There is no proof that M2k was used, even the bombing.


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## sancho

rockstarIN said:


> There is no proof that M2k was used, even the bombing.



Check this:

Indian Air Force News & Discussions | Page 90


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## rockstarIN

sancho said:


> Check this:
> 
> Indian Air Force News & Discussions | Page 90


ahh. I thought the recent unconfirmed bombing at Libya.


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## halloweene

Abu Dhabi in a 'state of confusion' after US reveal Libya bombing raids | Middle East Eye

NUMEROUS other reports.


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## sancho

rockstarIN said:


> ahh. I thought the recent unconfirmed bombing at Libya.



Oh ok, could be.


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## Agent_47



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## sancho

> *Mistral row: France risks losing Rafale contract in India*
> 
> A leading French analyst believes that France’s credibility as a reliable supplier of weapons is at stake if it refuses to send the Mistral-class amphibious warships to Russia.
> 
> France risks losing a contract to supply 126 fighter jets to India due to its refusal to deliver Mistral-class ships to Russia, a leading French analyst told the Delovoi Peterburg website. French officials said this week that they will not deliver the first Mistral-class amphibious warship that Russia had ordered as part of a $1.7 billion agreement for weapons sale.
> 
> The biggest repercussion would be a loss of reputation for France as a reliable supplier, Arnaud Dubien, a Russia research associate at the Institut de relations Internationales et Strategiques said. “Officials from the French Ministry of Defence, in private conversations acknowledge that if they fail to deliver the Mistral to Russia, then France will lose its contract to supply 126 fighter jets to India,” Dubien said.
> 
> Dubien believes that the decision of French President Francois Hollande, to suspend the delivery of the Mistral, is not final, and was taken under tremendous pressure from the United States and Germany. He added that a final decision would be taken by November on the delivery of the warships, and a lot would depend on how the situation in Ukraine panned out.
> 
> A source in the Indian Defence Ministry said that India was “watching the developments closely.” The source added it was too early to say if this would factor into the government’s decision to sign a contract. “When such a large amount of money is paid and then a supplier uses geopolitics to delay or suspend deliveries, it does raise eyebrows,” the source, who was not authorised to talk to the media, said. The Indian Ministry of Defence could not be immediately reached for official comment...



Mistral row: France risks losing Rafale contract in India | Russia & India Report


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## Storm Force

Sadly I wanted this plane even more than Fgfa From Russia.

Sadley I was worried by the cost over 15 months ago and did suggest the Indians getting cold feet.

I think my prediction was bang on I did mention slow down in GDP growth the devalue of rupee as s cause of my concern.

Some people got very shirty with my post


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## Astra-2013

we should favor this deal only if France give us full tot for building it here in india from raw material at least 90% of it if not 100%. otherwise this deal should be cancelled.

mujhse pucho to, i want this deal cancelled. Because than IAF will have no other option, and they have to support indigenous R&D and manufacturing.


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## DrSomnath999

sancho said:


> Pretty strange conclusions in the article, *Rafale would never be used for top cover MKIs,* because the capabilities of the fighters would be far better used the other way around.



i didnt get your POV basically

no where in the article did it claimed that Rafale would be used for cover MKIs rather the article claimed MKI would doing the cover work by destroying
AWACS through Ks 100 novator .But i dont have any latest update about K100 novator sadly

*CHEERS*


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## DrSomnath999

sancho said:


> True my fault misread the part, but the article remains with strange conclusions, because *India wilml never gain air superiority with just 2 squadrons of Rafale,* even with AWACS support (that still needs to come in a useful manner, while our opponents already have the advantage there). IAF will always will need the MKI, while the Rafale and force multipliers surely will increase their capability, but we simply are not facing easy opponents like the NATO does in most cases.
> 
> 
> 
> .


 
you have actually misintepreted that part

he is assuming according to the scenario of france size area & equating with size of india in relation to that air superiority part

Basically he did claimed the support of MKI with AWACS killer ofcourse by 2020 we gonna have a upgraded SU 30mki with aesa radar is in it??? & there numbers are indeed quite high at the moment in IAF inventory

& plus the capabilty of rafale cant be ignored even if it's squadron strength is about 2 squadrons by 2020

In real time this scenario can also happen becoz growing instabilty in the neighbourhood + expansionist philosophy countries
anything is possible by 2020 .

*Absolute air superiority of rafale depends upon which threat it is facing *


*CHEERS*


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## Aitreyan

sancho said:


> orts before the summer sounded rather positive for Qatar, however that's good for India tho





Storm Force said:


> Sadly I wanted this plane even more than Fgfa From Russia.
> 
> Sadley I was worried by the cost over 15 months ago and did suggest the Indians getting cold feet.
> 
> I think my prediction was bang on I did mention slow down in GDP growth the devalue of rupee as s cause of my concern.
> 
> Some people got very shirty with my post



FGFA is replacement for SU-30MKI one cannot compared MRCA deal with FGFA both are require as for T-50 its next generation fighter

One reason India will buy Rafale is because of satisfactory experience with using Mirage-2000 during kargil conflict , the aircraft was used to deliver laser guided bombs against entrenched targets and aircraft performed excellent and has become a legend

As for Mistral postponement its bad decision and should be reversed


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## Storm Force

Indian air force with upgraded mki and aesa radar combined with Rafale is a formidable air power. Arguably the best in Asia bar china and Saudi and the israelis


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## halloweene

Talked about that with a Dassault executive, he agreed that BPC story isn't good for the image of France, but is not worried. Stakes are too high according to him.


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## sancho

DrSomnath999 said:


> he is assuming *according to the scenario of france size area* & equating with size of india in relation to that air superiority part



That's the point, because that part is only comparing to the French / Nato scenarios and not to the actual Indian scenario. Our opponents are much more capable than anything NATO has dealt with in the last decades and they are already ahead in the AWACS scenario, that's why we can't achive superiority in that field unless we actually get a game changer and that can't be current gen fighters, be it the Rafale or the MKI. Only FGFA will be able to actually change the game, because it has the capability to counter the AWACS capability of our opponents.
AESA btw is not a game changer, it adds to capability, but far more important than that are modern passive EW sensors with 360° FoV and reduced RCS that the upgraded MKIs and the new Rafales will have.



halloweene said:


> Talked about that with a Dassault executive, he agreed that BPC story isn't good for the image of France, but is not worried. Stakes are too high according to him.



Of course it's not good for France and export interests, but not in case of India, because there is hardly a scenario, where India would end up getting against NATO interests and that's the point with Russia today, which led to this decision or the srapping of many European JVs Russia.
Actually, I wonder more about the US now thinking twice about selling high techs to India (close ally and supporter of Russia), than that France would restrict any sales to India. For instance, the follow on deal for Palcon AWACS with Israel, is based on the same Russian A50 platforms we already use and if the US / NATO is strict about not allowing NATO and their partners to deal with Russia on arms and techs in any way, they actually must stop Israel from putting their radar on a Russian aircraft. But that obviously will upset India, so that will be a very tricky issue.


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## DrSomnath999

sancho said:


> That's the point, because that part is only comparing to the French / Nato scenarios and not to the actual Indian scenario. *Our opponents are much more capable than anything NATO has dealt with in the last decades *and they are already ahead in the AWACS scenario, that's why we can't achive superiority in that field unless we actually get a game changer and that can't be current gen fighters, be it the Rafale or the MKI. Only FGFA will be able to actually change the game, because it has the capability to counter the AWACS capability of our opponents.
> *AESA btw is not a game changer, *it adds to capability, but far more important than that are modern passive EW sensors with 360° FoV and reduced RCS that the upgraded MKIs and the new Rafales will have.




You need to understand that the author is mentioning about the air policing role perhaps . He beleives that usually 2 rafales are used
to that mission for france if any case a greater threat arises then it can call for back up .
Just like the police do patrolling in the city when the threat is easy then can take it out but if the threat is dangerous/ riot happens then
they call for backup .You dont need to use all your assets for routine patrolling that would be very costly 

If that the case then france would have only made 1 squadron of rafale for themselves & india would have not order 126 planes at the
1st place


Regarding
*1st bold part*

Thats why i had mentioned earliear that Rafale air superiority depends upon the threat which it is facing & what kind of mission the plane have been configured to carry how many no of it's BVRAAMs (meteor & Mica IR)

for instance your are facing against a plane without aesa radar & is not stealthy then absolute air superiority is posssible for eg
JF17/J10a /F16 

BUt if your facing a non stealthy plane with AESA radar J11b /J15 /J10b then absolute air superiority depends upon rafale's EW suite & passive detection capabilty plus BVRAAM (meteor + MICA IR) 1st detect/1st shoot& 1st kill scenario


But against a stealth plane with AESA radar j20 /j31 then absolute air superiority becomes very difficult it have to rely on Passive detection /active cancellation tech + BVRAAM 's Kp against those platforms .

Regarding AWACS threat/SAM threat / Aerostat /airborne Electronic attack plaforms threat appropiate counter missiles & strategy is required to take them out 
a) AWACS killer missile Ks 100 novator as mentioned by the author is a solution against AWACS 
b) Rafale has to get a proper ANTI radiation missile with long range to do SEAD missiions against more greater threat LIBYA was slighly 
easiear

c) AErostat are easier to take out with BVRAAMs or anti radiation missiles 
d) against Airborne Electronic attack platforms Rafale's passive detection advantage with IRST would be very handy You gonna take them 
out with MICA IR or any heat seeking BVRAAM


*2nd BOLD PART*

I agree AESA is not the only game changer others are also required 
But AESA radar with long range capabilty would be very crucial becoz it can help other planes to target enemy planes through mini awacs
concept from standoff distance meanhile other planes such as Rafale can be in passive mode

France has to rely on rafale's RBE 2 aesa radar /or their awacs to do that thing but we have SU 30 MKI with an AESA radar which range
is far greater than RBE 2 aesa radar itself plus own AWACS are also there

PAssive detection has it's limitiations & Rafale & MKI both are not 5th gen planes like stealthy, so AESA radar would still remain the primary sensor for aerial combat plus the BVRAAMS which each platform it would carry






sancho said:


> Of course it's not good for France and export interests, but not in case of India, because there is hardly a scenario, *where India would end up getting against NATO interests *and that's the point with Russia today, which led to this decision or the srapping of many European JVs Russia.
> Actually, I wonder more about the US now thinking twice about selling high techs to India (close ally and supporter of Russia), than that France would restrict any sales to India. For instance, the follow on deal for Palcon AWACS with Israel, is based on the same Russian A50 platforms we already use and if the US / NATO is strict about not allowing NATO and their partners to deal with Russia on arms and techs in any way, they actually must stop Israel from putting their radar on a Russian aircraft. But that obviously will upset India, so that will be a very tricky issue.



I do 2nd that bold part

becoz if you see india's nuclear test scenario the india's bring the china card scenario to defencd themselves plus India is a crucial ally
&market for west companies

India dont have any hostility with european & USA until & unless pakistan joins NATO 

so the sanctions were not stringest & France was among the few countries who had supported india at that time without any sanctions


But france international reputation as a reliable weapons supplier is at stake if they do it it can hamper their export potentials 
& USA is doing clever job also 

1 arrow & 2 targets
1) french international crediblity as a reliable weapon supplier sullies in the international weapons market

2) Rafale deal would be indirectly affected pyschologically from indian point of view

*CHEERS*


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## halloweene

Today's demo, Payerne, Switzerland.

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## sancho

DrSomnath999 said:


> You need to understand that the author is mentioning about the air policing role perhaps .



He clearly states the air superiority role in the example.




DrSomnath999 said:


> If that the case then france would have only made 1 squadron of rafale for themselves & india would have not order 126 planes at the
> 1st place



Doesn't really makes sense, because AESA is only the upgrade to older Radar systems, therefore we just required the most modern radar system, but didn't selected Rafale only because it has AESA. As I said, it adds to the capabilities of the fighter, but is of no use, if the enemy has propper AWACS support! The low RCS, terrain avoiding capabilities, passive MICA attacks and in future METEOR will play a far more important role, when IAF is in attack, than the AESA itself. 



DrSomnath999 said:


> for instance your are facing against a plane without aesa radar & is not stealthy then absolute air superiority is posssible



Of course, but only if the opponent fighter doesn't have AWACS support, otherwise they will fly with their own radars turned off, which makes them harder to detect, while they will get the positions of our fighters via AWACS. That's the same tactics we used with MKIs and Bisons for example, just that propper AWACS support makes this far better. 
That's why that scenario fits to the opponents of the NATO so far, but not to ours!



DrSomnath999 said:


> France has to rely on rafale's RBE 2 aesa radar /or their awacs to do that thing but we have SU 30 MKI with an AESA radar which range
> is far greater than RBE 2 aesa radar itself plus own AWACS are also there



They always have AWACS support when they use Rafale (E-3 or E-2), the AESA is only an addition, but doesn't make the AWACS support any less important. IAF had no AWACS for a long time (and even today not anywhere close to the needed numbers), that's when the long range and wide field of view of the BARS was a crucial advantage, but as mentioned above, that is countered today by our opponents and even for the so called mini AWACS role, the T50 will be the game changer, because it can do the role while being within the enemy air space and can detect threats, before they can detect the following IAF fighters.


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## Agent_47

let's hope SCALP is part of MMRCA package.

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## sancho

> *Steinmeier in India: "Euro Fighter" consortium may hope for mega deal again*
> 
> In India, wild speculation: Gets the armorers Cassidian still one of the biggest deals in the industry history? In New Delhi, Foreign Minister Steinmeier indicates that the race for the "Euro Fighter" delivery is still open.
> 
> The European arms consortium Cassidian, now renamed Airbus Defence & Space, but apparently still has chances of the largest arms deal in the world. During his visit to India *Foreign Minister confirmed Frank-Walter Steinmeier (SPD) confirmed rumors that the Indians have not yet determined the planned purchase of more than 120 fighter jets* to modernize its air force to the product and also the "Euro Fighter," the consortium from Britain, Germany, Italy and Spain so that is still in the race for the huge arms deal.
> 
> However, the foreign minister did not stand as a recruiter for the huge arms deal itself. When talking to the new Premier Narendra Modi the issue played no part. * However Steinmeier had put in an interview the "Euro Fighter," even on the agenda of his visit. "We believe that the 'Eurofighter' consortium has submitted a good offer, and we support it*," the politician of the newspaper "The Hindu" said. The deal is in the Indian press for years a huge issue, with a volume of up to 15 billion euros, he breaks records.
> *After speaking with modes Steinmeier remained conscious restrained before the terraces German journalists. Still subject to the Indians of his knowledge before two offers for the giant arms deal. "The Indians have yet to decide which offer them the best*," said the minister in front of the residence of the new prime minister. Previously it was assumed that the Indians had already decided in 2012 for the French competitor "Rafale", for Cassidian was a tough setback...



Eurofighter: Cassidian darf wieder auf Mega-Deal hoffen - SPIEGEL ONLINE


More hope than actual changes, but the fact that they still can talk about the EF is the crucial part, since the government / PM Modi could had taken a clear stand and take that topic of the list, which would had made clear, that Rafale is the choice and no change is possible.


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## he-man

sancho said:


> Eurofighter: Cassidian darf wieder auf Mega-Deal hoffen - SPIEGEL ONLINE



Not a chance..........too late for negotiations to start again plus the statement by the iaf chief last week practically seals the fate


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## sancho

he-man said:


> Not a chance..........too late for negotiations to start again plus the statement by the iaf chief last week practically seals the fate



Look at the LUH competition and you will see it's not and the statement of the IAF chief is nothing important, we have heared the same from his predecessors too, but they are only expressing their hope to sign the deal soon, but IAF is not taking decisions. As long as the GoI / MoD has not taken an official stand or even gives out a clear statement about their policies, everything is possible. 
But I don't think the new EF offer is impressive enough to make a difference, unless there is more than the speculated cost reduction.


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## he-man

sancho said:


> Look at the LUH competition and you will see it's not and the statement of the IAF chief is nothing important, we have heared the same from his predecessors too, but they are only expressing their hope to sign the deal soon, but IAF is not taking decisions. As long as the GoI / MoD has not taken an official stand or even gives out a clear statement about their policies, everything is possible.
> But I don't think the new EF offer is impressive enough to make a difference, unless there is more than the speculated cost reduction.



No comparison b/w luh and mmrca.
mmrca is critical for us.

Plus the swiss evaluation report pegs rafale much better than ef.
Also captor-e aesa is a few years away still while rbe2 aa is up and running for 2 years now.

And the biggest factor is fear of sanctions....................we should avoid a 4 nation consortium especially one having britain


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## sancho

he-man said:


> No comparison b/w luh and mmrca.
> mmrca is critical for us.



Wrong, the case is even exactly the same, because IA and IAF officials are stating the same things about a fast replacement of the older helicopters, as we hear in MMRCA. The MoD could had made a final selection for an LUH now, but have changed the competition to a re-tendering, which causes huge delays. For MMRCA that even opens 2 causes for re-tendering possibilities.

1) re-considering about the L1 due to the changes withing the competition and the RFP
2) re-considering about HALs work share, just as in the LUH competition



he-man said:


> Plus the swiss evaluation report pegs rafale much better than ef.



And the same might be the result of Indias evaluation, but not the best fighter will be selected, but the best package (fighter capabilities, industrial benefits, costs...).


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## he-man

sancho said:


> Wrong, the case is even exactly the same, because IA and IAF officials are stating the same things about a fast replacement of the older helicopters, as we hear in MMRCA. The MoD could had made a final selection now and changed the competition now, which causes huge delays. For MMRCA that even opens 2 causes for re-tendering.
> 
> 1) re-considering about the L1 due to the changes withing the competition and the RFP
> 2) re-considering about HALs work share, just as in the LUH competition
> 
> 
> 
> And the same might be the result of Indias evaluation, but not the best fighter will be selected, but the best package (fighter capabilities, industrial benefits, costs...).



As i said its too late in the day now.
And my point on sanctions is a valid one,,,we better stay away from uk


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## sancho

he-man said:


> As i said its too late in the day now.
> And my point on sanctions is a valid one,,,we better stay away from uk



That's your personal opionion, but that has no importance on a the evaluation which offer is better for India as a whole, nor on the decision of MoD to re-evaluate and for that it's obviously not too later (if the changes in the P75I competition are true, we even see the 2nd big re-tendering of the new MoD, again causing delays).


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## DrSomnath999

sancho said:


> He clearly states the air superiority role in the example.



Yes!!

But his logic was correct but the example was embarrassingly wrong

If you take the eg of france they dont have any threat nearby their neighbourhood as they are abide by NATO but
immediate threat of theirs as a whole is RUSSIA which is quite a distance away from them plus they have a combined air force with other nations airforce as a whole in case of NATO unlike we .

Meanwhile India's case is totally different 2 nuclear armed neighbours One with surplus AWACS & 4th -upcoming
5th gen fighter & another one with leaner airforce but well trained pilots & experience with previous air combats with us

So thats why like i said earliear air superiority depends upon threat which it is facing.

(IMO)Air policing should have been the accurate case here in case of india not air superiority one For absolute air superiorty it definetly needs help from SU 30 mki & why shouldnt they hesistate for that !!

So the author should have included that part also 





sancho said:


> Doesn't really makes sense, because AESA is only the upgrade to older Radar systems, therefore we just required the most modern radar system,* but didn't selected Rafale only because it has AESA. *



when did i say we selected rafale only becoz it has aesa other factors also counts too
But it was one of the most important criteria of MMRCA & you very well know it

Nowadays every country wants AESA radar in their plane becoz of it's added advantages in comparision to older radars



sancho said:


> As I said, it adds to the capabilities of the fighter, but is of no use, *if the enemy has propper AWACS support!*


That is serious misconception
One thing i like to tell That AWACS can patrol in one's own land basically but you cant take it deep into
enemy airspace until & unless you achieve
1) absolute air superiority by taking out all aerial threats in that area
2) SEAD , but incase of CHINA they may field long range SAM in future eg S400 which have long range Missiles & radar to detect air threats which looks very difficult to do SEAD missions

But fighter planes can go deep into enemy air space as it fly low + Low RCs + EW hence MINI awacs concept look more survivable in case of enemy air space








sancho said:


> The low RCS, terrain avoiding capabilities, passive MICA attacks and in future METEOR will play a far more important role, when IAF is in attack, than the AESA itself.



The problem is with AWACS few things what you mention here as advantage is nullified

1)LOW rcs of rafale would be neglected with EFTs plus it can never have a stealth plane like Low RCS it would
be detected by AWACS

2) Terrain avoiding capabilties look good on when you are in offensive mode i.e when you are in enemy land ,But
when you are in defensive mode i.e you are flying in your own land & your the defender against enemy aerial attack then if you fly low then your BVRAAMS wont have any kinematic range.

3) sadly passive detection has also it's limitations unfortunately FSO IT lacks an IRST channel we can have an IRST channel if we opt for it ,meanwhile RWR 's capabilty is also limited & yet to be tested against AESA radar platforms planes

So thats why plane's EW capabilty for example in case of Rafale Spectra would be effective against enemy AWACS
& rafale's AESA radar would not help in detection of aerial threats but in Electronic attack/warfare also .This is the biggest advantage of AESA radar .

One more thing also an AESA radar also acts as a passive radar also it means it can also help in passive detection also
Imagine if our AWACS get shot down by a similiar kind of AWACS killer missile like us by the chinese then you gonna have to rely on mini awacs concept basically .













sancho said:


> Of course, but only if the opponent fighter doesn't have AWACS support, otherwise they will fly with their own radars turned off, which makes them harder to detect, while they will get the positions of our fighters via AWACS. That's the same tactics we used with MKIs and Bisons for example, just that propper AWACS support makes this far better.
> *That's why that scenario fits to the opponents of the NATO so far, but not to ours!*



Russia also has AWACS but it cant fly deep into NATO territories & the reason is same as above .







sancho said:


> They always have AWACS support when they use Rafale (E-3 or E-2), the AESA is only an addition, but doesn't make the AWACS support any less important. IAF had no AWACS for a long time (and even today not anywhere close to the needed numbers), that's when the long range and wide field of view of the BARS was a crucial advantage, but as mentioned above, that is countered today by our opponents and even for the *so called mini AWACS role, the T50 will be the game changer because it can do the role while being within the enemy air space and can detect threats, before they can detect the following IAF fighters,*.


exactly for offensive purpose a stealth plane would be more valuable than an AWACS but for defensive purpose
AWACS role is good enough

But we have to wait to get a FFGA until then any emergency we gonna have to deal with Rafale + SU 30 mki (SUPER) variants basically


*CHEERS*

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## Dash

sancho said:


> That's your personal opionion, but that has no importance on a the evaluation which offer is better for India as a whole, nor on the decision of MoD to re-evaluate and for that it's obviously not too later (if the changes in the *P75I competition are true, we even see the 2nd big re-tendering of the new MoD,* again causing delays).



They spoke about private shipyards, only L&T?


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## sancho

DrSomnath999 said:


> when did i say we selected rafale only becoz it has aesa other factors also counts too
> But it was one of the most important criteria of MMRCA & you very well know it



Again it was one of the criterias for MMRCA, but not for the selection of Rafale. We could had got better once if AESA would actually have played a big role, but it didn't, it simply was the minimum requirement. So AESA is defenitely not a game changer.



DrSomnath999 said:


> Nowadays every country wants AESA radar in their plane becoz of it's added advantages in comparision to older radars



Isn't that logical? It is the state of the art technology and who wants to remain with old techs and weapons on their fighters. For countries without AWACS support it's even more important, as it improves the detection capability not only of the fighter by of the force as a whole by far. 



DrSomnath999 said:


> That is serious misconception
> One thing i like to tell That AWACS can patrol in one's own land basically but you cant take it deep into
> enemy airspace until & unless you achieve



Not really, when even a basic AWACS system can detect fighter sized target at 300Km+, you can stay 150Km away from the borders and still have a good picture inside the enemy air space. The more capable the AWACS is (Chinese KJ2000s or our A50 Phalcons for example) and the more numbers of aircraft you have to cover a wide area in a 24/7 rotation, the better of course. 



DrSomnath999 said:


> But fighter planes can go deep into enemy air space as it fly low + Low RCs + EW hence MINI awacs concept look more survivable in case of enemy air space



Mini AWACS has nothing to do with the enemy airspace, since not even MKIs will use their BARS there, because it makes them detectable. That concept is only the ability to share radar data via data links with other aircrafts, that then can stay in passive mode and then be less detectable. Be it AWACS to fighter, MKI to Bison, or Rafale with AESA to Rafale in passive mode...and since you can use your active radar to the maximum performance only at high altitude, you can't use that in low altitude approach either. 



DrSomnath999 said:


> it can never have a stealth plane like Low RCS it would be detected by AWACS



That's why only FGFA can be a game changer, while Rafale or EF will increase or capabilities, especially in the offensive, by giving alternatives to the MKI as the only current option for offensive actions and that not even a good one at the moment.


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## sancho

Dash said:


> They spoke about private shipyards, only L&T?



Not sure which ship yards, but I meant that they changed the competition (according to the reports) from 2 subs build in vendor country + 4 in India to all in India. Which would go according to the increased manufacturing in India idea, but against the fast procurement of subs as IN wants it. 
Similarly, IAF wants a fast procurement in MMRCA too and that for a long time now, but it's MoD who decides and if the new MoD has a different policy, they can still change the competition according to it, if they see more benefits for India.

For example, if they want to de-link HAL more from the MMRCA as they did in the LUH competition now, they can re-evaluate the shortlisted or even re-tender the whole competition (which is unlikely though), to let more private industry team ups with the vendors happen and then select the best offer. That's the procedure that the former MoD had initiated for the Avro replacement and that the new MoD now takes over as the standard, even for ongoing tenders as it seems (LUH, P75I). If that is the new policy of the MoD now, it simply can't be ruled out for MMRCA now and it would at least open a chance for the EF again, but as I said before, lower basic costs won't make the MoD reconsider MMRCA, only credible changes in their industrial offer will.


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## DrSomnath999

sancho said:


> *Not really, when even a basic AWACS system can detect fighter sized target at 300Km+, you can stay 150Km away from the borders and still have a good picture inside the enemy air space.*


again you are mixing things up what you have stated above is for defensive purpose basically in one's own land.

Imagine your in strategic mission to bomb one enemy land deep into it's hinterland which is heavily defended with
long range SAMs & fighter support , You cant take your awacs deep for instance 1000km into air space of enemy land with you unless you achieve both the conditions what i have posted above .

If you go with awacs without doing those 2 conditions which i have posted above then awacs is not returning to base for sure .





sancho said:


> The more capable the AWACS is (Chinese KJ2000s or our A50 Phalcons for example) and the more numbers of aircraft you have to cover a wide area in a 24/7 rotation, the better of course.



Luckily that scenario applies good for us against pakistan as it is small country so with phalcons we can cover
almost 40-50% area of pakistani air space if we patrol our phalcons in 4 states border
a) Gujarat b) rajasthan c) Punjab & d) jammu



But unfortunately we cant do that with china as it is a big country













sancho said:


> Mini AWACS has nothing to do with the enemy airspace, *since not even MKIs will use their BARS there, because it makes them detectable.*That concept is only the ability to share radar data via data links with other aircrafts, that then can stay in passive mode and then be less detectable.



MIni awacs concept lies a fighter with radar turn on from stand off range basically from distance which your adversary cant engage you with that range of BVRAAM even if it gets detected

whether it is AESA/PESA radar .But AESA radar thanks to LPI has a better chance of survival than PESA



sancho said:


> Be it AWACS to fighter, MKI to Bison, or Rafale with AESA to Rafale in passive mode...and since you can use your active radar to the maximum performance only at high altitude, *you can't use that in low altitude approach either*.



You again misintreprated the logic
ok i explain
see for eg if your alloted the task of strategic nuclear attack / bombing deep into china , where stealth is a priority
but you dont have stealth plane

So rafale + aesa equipped Su 30 mki would be alloted to do the job , Both have to fly low + EW suite & situational awarness to scan out the threats .

If RWR of any plane detects a warning of EM emission then only one plane has to go up with radar turn on & rest have to be on passive mode flying low . The plane with greater detection range would be employed to be in active mode & scan out the area for ground / aerial threats & guide other planes to engage their targets from a stand of range.

*Even if it is detected & it is fired upon it can evade much better way or it take out the threat on it's own which AWACS cant do *

so awacs would be a liabilty on enemy air space & your ignoring one thing if similar kind of AWACS killer is used against us then what would you do

So mini awacs is a pratical way in enemy air space



*CHEERS*


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## sancho

DrSomnath999 said:


> If you go with awacs without doing those 2 conditions which i have posted above then awacs is not returning to base for sure .



Who said we would use AWACS beyond enemy borders? I said, we won't use that mini AWACS tactics in offensive strike missions, at least not unless stealth fighters will be available. 



DrSomnath999 said:


> Luckily that scenario applies good for us against pakistan



Not with the pointless numbers of AWACS we have today



DrSomnath999 said:


> But unfortunately we cant do that with china as it is a big country



Of course we can, since we don't need to cover China as a whole, but need long enough range to have a propper reaction time against air or land attacks. But again, first we need useful numbers of AWACS aircrafts, otherwise we simply will have too many blind spots.



DrSomnath999 said:


> The plane with greater detection range would be employed to be in active mode & scan out the area for ground / aerial threats & guide other planes to engage their targets from a stand of range.



No it wouldn't because that would work exactly against the idea of beeing less detectable. You send the whole package in low and passive and would use radar only if really necessary. The minute you use fighter active and high, the enemy can detect it and will engage, which makes the strike package vulnerable to detection too, since you lead the interceptors to the same area, while you want to avoid that. That's why all the fighters will rely on passive sensor infos. In fact in offensive missions, you use active fighters as distractions, to divert the attention away from the strike package, or to make out ground defences and don't use both together. That as said will only be possible with FGFA, because it can fly infront of the strike package, even active and at high altitude, WITHOUT being detected or making the strike package vulnerable. It then can detect enemies and guide the package away from threats, but that's a different tactic with different capabilities.


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## DrSomnath999

sancho said:


> I said, *we won't use that mini AWACS tactics in offensive strike missions, at least not unless stealth fighters will be available*.



Sadly thats your opinion basically .

Meanwhile Stealth fighters would lose it's stealth advantage if it is in active mode in foreign land

thats why i have read somewhere US would rather be using F15 silent eagle / latest versions of F15 's powerful AESA radar to be used in Mini awacs mode from stand off range & still be able to guide
F22 which is stealthy to be in passive mode to target their threats without turning on it's own AESA radar for stealth
reason .Thats looks more survivable Becoz F22 can take out threats stealthily Meanwhile F15 would be in standoff
range from enemy BVRs





sancho said:


> Not with the *pointless* numbers of AWACS we have today[



WTH do you mean by pointless number of AWACS i just can understand

HOw many number of awacs would make your number pointful in INDO/PAK scenario then let me guess

According to the article a single E 3F awacs is sufficient enough to patrol the size of france . So atleast 4 awacs patroling in the border states wont be pointful according to you in case of INDO -PAK scenario .Strange!!

Meanwhile majority of pakistani air assets are in the border areas basically in the eastern border of theirs
Very less air assets are stationed in the western border. So one can easily monitor their movements from AWACS by flying in it's own territory






3 are there Plus DRDO awacs recently going to be handed over to IAF even if smaller is also quite capable as their ERIC EYE .

& yes future plans of other AWACS are also there for IAF but we are discussing about current scenario at the moment









sancho said:


> Of course we can, since we don't need to cover China as a whole, *but need long enough range to have a propper reaction time against air or land attacks. *But again, first we need useful numbers of AWACS aircrafts, otherwise we simply will have too many blind spots.



Well easiear said than done

INDIA & china scenario & topography is totally different .
Vast stretch of border land plus AWACS range is not that much it can no way able to cover that much border area Plus Himalayas mountain topography can be an obstruction also for passing of RADAR emissions from AWACS .If a skilled chinese pilot can utilize this topography to it's advantage then it can make AWACS job very difficult

another point is Nepal area & Myanmar area can be a porous area for us against the chinese airforce if adequate AWACS coverage does nt reach there

*Meanwhile this things doesnt come into equation into INDO -PAK scenario*
I really wonder now how many AWACS ,would be *"pointful"*according to you in case of India against china scenario then 




sancho said:


> No it wouldn't because that would work exactly against the idea of beeing less detectable. You send the whole package in low and passive and would use radar only if really necessary. *The minute you use fighter active and high, the enemy can detect it and will engage, which makes the strike package vulnerable to detection too, *since you lead the interceptors to the same area, while you want to avoid that.


Your logic is flawed
No matter your in active or passive mode AWACS /Or an aerostat would detect you no matter how low you fly ,if your not a stealth plane as eg Rafale has to carry EFT + CRUISE Missile in case of long range mission so meaning less to say AWACS cant detect it

But for a non stealthy plane it requires an EA aircraft in the strike formation also for that SU 30 mki would be configured to carry EL/M-8222 jamming pod
jamming pod but upgraded versions might carry the Russian systems or stick to isreali ones i cant say.
But for Rafale Spectra & AESA radar would be handy for EW department.& rafale would also be carring atleast
6 missiles for self defence



Plus SU 30 mki would be carrying an AWACS killer if it indeed exists for INDIA. So eventually if the strike package do get detected
The escort fighters which usually should be Su 30 mki which might not need EFTS as it has larger internal fuel plus range so can carry extra BVRAAMS than rafale or the multi role fighter Rafale which has multiple (A2A /A2G) payload gonna have to take the threat out eventually before it intercepts them , through mini awacs concept from a Super SU 30mki or rafale itself.

Also incase SEAD is required in case then you have to carry An ARM / PGM













sancho said:


> That's why all the fighters will rely on passive sensor infos.


Your posting one sided view basically imagine after you have been spotted by an awacs your adversary fighter jets are also in passive mode relying on awacs/mini awacs concept then .as J10b /Flanker pirated variants all have IRSTs . then Passive targeting advantage would even eventually be nullified for both sides until & unless you dont take out
AWACS with AWACS killer for that also i presume you gonna have to turn on your AESA radar.


So passive detection has its limitations for both sides ,

& only deciding factor after that would be the range of BVRAAMs (IR or EM) & it's Kp basically



sancho said:


> . That as said will only be possible with FGFA, because it can fly infront of the strike package,* even active* and at high altitude, WITHOUT being detected or making the strike package vulnerable. It then can detect enemies and guide the package away from threats, but that's a different tactic with different capabilities.



then how can you call it an advantage for FFGA if it is in *active* meanwhile your assuming the same scenario
as disadavantage for a non steathy fighter.

basically like i mentioned before 2 scenarios could make FFGA advantage for strike package

a) EA attack assited Stealth plane strike package

b) completely passive Stealth plane assisted strike package

*CHEERS*


----------



## sancho

DrSomnath999 said:


> Sadly thats your opinion basically .



Which you can't counter, since the key points are flying active and with maximum use of detection capability. But that is used only in defensive, while using the passive fighters as offensive tools. Look at the reports from Cope 2004 and how IAF used the MKIs. They purposly kept them away from engaging in fights and used them only for surveillance, to use their biggest advantage in the combined tactics with the passive "attacking" Bisons! So it's not just my opionion, but a proven concept within the IAF. 



DrSomnath999 said:


> Meanwhile Stealth fighters would lose it's stealth advantage if it is in active mode in foreign land



How so? They benefit from stealth in first place, contrary to the MKI, which makes them far less vulnerable even if operated at high altitude and since it is expected that they will have modern AESAs with LPI modes, as well as IR reduction measures, they are far better in an offensive mini AWACS role, exactly because the low detectability is their prime advantage, not the detection capability as it is for the MKI.



DrSomnath999 said:


> thats why i have read somewhere US would rather be using F15 silent eagle / latest versions of F15 's powerful AESA radar to be used in Mini awacs mode from stand off range & still be able to guide



Again, in defensive because the idea is to provide the forwarded / passive fighter with radar data to engage enemy fighters, even if it makes you more detectable, while being in a safe distance to the target. 
In offensive strike roles however, the F22 would be the mini AWACS, because it's less detectable and would provide following passive F15s in strike config, with radar data to avoid threats and make them less detectable. 

You can see the same even in Rafales current SEAD concepts, where one Rafale is active and at high altutude to force ground defences to aim at it, but at the same time pin point them, to divert target data to a low flying Rafale with stand off weapons. The earlier stays in safe distance, while the latter is closing in to the target, while remaining low detectable. 



DrSomnath999 said:


> WTH do you mean by pointless number of AWACS i just can understand
> 
> HOw many number of awacs would make your number pointful in INDO/PAK scenario then let me guess



Pointless because we only have 3 operational AWACS aircrafts today, to cover several 1000s Km of border area and that 24/7. IAF officials themselfs states, that they aim on around 15 x AWACS to cover the land borders alone, so even with the follow 2 to 3 A50 Phalcons and 3 x DRDO AWACS we much below the required number to provide propper coverage, while PAF for example has already superior numbers to provide better rotations and at the same time can concentrate basically at a single boderline only. That's why aiming on developing AWACS India now, before not even the first DRDO AWACS order is fully inducted and a follow on order was cleared is totally nonsense and doesn't serve the security of the nation.



DrSomnath999 said:


> Plus SU 30 mki would be carrying an AWACS killer if it indeed exists for INDIA.



 You are developing concepts and at the same time have doubts about key capabilities? So why not stick to what we know, rather than speculating on rumored capabilities?



DrSomnath999 said:


> So passive detection has its limitations for both sides
> 
> & only deciding factor after that would be the range of BVRAAMs (IR or EM) & it's Kp basically


 ,

Not really, it actually broadens the picture, that's why adding EW sensor capabilities with RWR in 360°s gives a modern fighter far better situational awareness, than a 4th gen fighter that is dependent on active radar data only. Rafale and EF belongs to the most advanced fighters with such capabilities, which gives them advantages over adversaries, especially in combination with unique features like MICA and FSO. Not the IRST is the key, since it has range and FoV limitations, but modern RWRs, which is why the upgraded Mig 29 of IAF will supass the passive capabilities of the older version by far, although it had IRST, HMS and Hobs missiles for years. So the better your passive capabilities, the more it adds you in modern combat. 



DrSomnath999 said:


> then how can you call it an advantage for FFGA if it is in *active* meanwhile your assuming the same scenario
> as disadavantage for a non steathy fighter.



As mentioned above, a non stealth fighter will be vulnerable against all kind of detection measures, be it active radar, IR or by EW sensors that tries to detect any signals of it. Propper 5th gen fighters on the other side are designed and developed to be as prone against these detection measures as possible, be it through stealth design, low IR features like SC capability, or by giving away as less signals as possible, using the most modern techs. All that is including in the FGFA, which is why it will give IAF a huge advantage in adding new combat tactics and we really need the twin seat version, to further increase these NG tactics with AURA UCAV in future too.


----------



## DrSomnath999

sancho said:


> *Which you can't counter, *since the key points are flying active and with maximum use of detection capability. But that is used only in defensive, while using the passive fighters as offensive tools. *Look at the reports from Cope 2004 and how IAF used the MKIs.* They purposly kept them away from engaging in fights and used them only for surveillance, to use their biggest advantage in the combined tactics with the passive "attacking" Bisons! So it's not just my opionion, but a proven concept within the IAF.


I am sorry to reveal that
you embarrasingly citated a wrong example to prove your wrong POV

cope 2004 exercise didnt use SU 30 mki at all rather basic Su 30k as Su 30 mki radar frequencies are classified they are not authorise to use it against a foreign adversary in aerial games whether in india or abroad .





Cope India: How the IAF rewrote the rules of air combat | Russia & India Report
Exercise Cope India 04

Ok mistakes do happen sometimes ignore it 

But whatever it may be mini awacs is possible in offensive / Defensive missions .Becoz i beleive in defensive mission mini awacs would be pointless when you already have AWACS










sancho said:


> *How so? *They benefit from stealth in first place, contrary to the MKI, which makes them far less vulnerable even if operated at high altitude and since it is expected that they will have modern AESAs with LPI modes, as well as IR reduction measures, they are far better in an offensive mini AWACS role, exactly because the low detectability is their prime advantage, not the detection capability as it is for the MKI.



becoz if you please correlate what you have posted earliear you could see what danger if they are in active mode



> No it wouldn't because that would work exactly against the idea of beeing less detectable. You send the whole package in low and passive and would use radar only if really necessary. *The minute you use fighter active and high, the enemy can detect it and will engage, which makes the strike package vulnerable to detection too,*since you lead the interceptors to the same area, while you want to avoid that.



so aesa technolgy remains the same for a 5th gen or 4th gen fighter's radar as they both should have LPI ,But RWR of an AWACS is usually more powerful & senstive than a fighter plane Rwr 
.It would be alerted of a unknown plane in the region & it would alert & guide it patroling fighters (J10b/ flanker clones) having IRST to that region in passive mode 

So whther stealthy or not IR emission from air friction from wings & fuselarge of a plane cant be ignored which the enemy fighter's IRST would detect it & no EW would work against IRST
So cover blown so better be passive in 1st place if you dont want yourselves to be engaged in aerial warfare in an enemy airspace where you dont have any fuel / fighter plane back up when you ran out of fuel /missiles eventually










sancho said:


> Again, in defensive because the idea is to provide the forwarded / passive fighter with radar data to engage enemy fighters, even if it makes you more detectable, while being in a safe distance to the target.
> In offensive strike roles however, the F22 would be the mini AWACS, because it's less detectable and would provide following passive F15s in strike config, with radar data to avoid threats and make them less detectable.



again the same old stuff defensive /offensive 

why are you neglecting one thing in defensive mode when you would be having a superior awacs why the hell would you rely on a F15 for mini awacs concept.

In offensive mode F15 even in active /passive mode doesnt make any sense as it would be detected by AWACS 
rather F22 in passive mode would take out all threats stealthily without alerting them & could easily clear way for F15 or any non stealthy fighter plane to proceed further & F15 aesa radar would guide them to it's target from a stand off range.




sancho said:


> You can see the same even in *Rafales current SEAD concepts,* where one Rafale is active and at high altutude to force ground defences to aim at it, but at the same time pin point them, to divert target data to a low flying Rafale with stand off weapons. The earlier stays in safe distance, while the latter is closing in to the target, while remaining low detectable.


Hmm
if your reffering to LIBYA example 

ask yourselves do the libyan have 
a) AWACS ??
b) long range SAMs like S400

Ok why should i bash only french ask the the same thing about US airforce which opponents have they faced have those 2 things plus the french & US have excellent EW capabilty 

So their opponent didnt have the 1st look advantage & situational awareness at all meanwhile the french & US did 

*Becoz with awacs no matter how low you fly & whther your are in active or passive mode if your not stealthy & you are flying within the detection range of AWACS , then you cant hide *

Only an EA aircraft assisted non stealthy strike package(formation) can survive or completely passive stealth aircraft strike package (formation)










sancho said:


> Pointless because we only have 3 operational AWACS aircrafts today, to cover several 1000s Km of border area and that 24/7. *IAF officials themselfs states, that they aim on around 15 x AWACS to cover the land borders alone,* so even with the follow 2 to 3 A50 Phalcons and 3 x DRDO AWACS we much below the required number to provide propper coverage, while PAF for example has already superior numbers to provide better rotations and at the same time can concentrate basically at a single boderline only. That's why aiming on developing AWACS India now, before not even the first DRDO AWACS order is fully inducted and *a follow on order was cleared is totally nonsense and doesn't serve the security of the nation*.



& that is for IAF's 2 front strategy basically which includes a vastly outnumbered adversary CHINA plus well trained PAF.I am stressing about PAK border line only.

& the article had cited example of single E3d able to patrol the size of france so 3 can be used in PAKISTAN scenario but yes numerically that is inferior but technology & capabilty wise superior to PAF 

plus DRDO awacs has not been inducted yet thats true but by year end i think it would be inducted or it can be delayed also i cant deny that also
& 
*why do you beleive it doesnt serve security of the nation ???huH!!*
meanwhile brazil is proposing to export that awacs version to 3rd world countries & PAF also have similiar kind 
of AWACS in the form of ERIC EYE








sancho said:


> You are developing concepts and at the same time have doubts about key capabilities? So why not stick to what we know, rather than speculating on rumored capabilities?



My lord!!
R172 novator misile was stated in the article itself by the author which was our topic of discussion " *the article's content itself in those 2 jpegs file "*, 
Who the hell am I to develop concepts 

& why am i doubting becoz i dont know any recent updates about novator i have been listening about this from quite a sometime but no latest updates or news have been published about it 
.

so thats why i am skeptical.




,


sancho said:


> Not really, it actually broadens the picture, that's why adding EW sensor capabilities with RWR in 360°s gives a modern fighter far better situational awareness, than a 4th gen fighter that is dependent on active radar data only. Rafale and EF belongs to the most advanced fighters with such capabilities, which gives them advantages over adversaries, especially in combination with unique features like MICA and FSO. Not the IRST is the key, since it has range and FoV limitations, but modern RWRs, which is why the upgraded Mig 29 of IAF will supass the passive capabilities of the older version by far, although it had IRST, HMS and Hobs missiles for years. So the better your passive capabilities, the more it adds you in modern combat.



You are posting only 1 sided view basically that i have pointed out earliear kindly think from adversary point of view
also

Your adversary like china also has IRST equipped fighters plus we dont know anything about their RWR capabilty

but one thing they would be having in their own land when they are in defensive & we wont be having in offensive scenario in their land 

*i.e AWACS* , biggest force multiplier whether your are in active or passive mode it doesnt matter to him it would detect a non stealthy plane with EFTS & CRUISE missile if it flies within it's detection range .Until & unless
it is not supported By EA aircraft or rafale's active cancellation tech for rafale only not for SU 30 mki 

meanhile FSO IT lacks an IRST channel & RWr targeting capabilty against a passive target wouldnt be possible

& to exploit full capabilty(MAX RANGEE) of Meteor missile we have to need a radar i.e through MINI awacs concept








sancho said:


> As mentioned above, a non stealth fighter will be vulnerable against all kind of detection measures, be it active radar, IR or by EW sensors that tries to detect any signals of it. *Propper 5th gen fighters on the other side are designed and developed to be as prone against these detection measures as possible, be it through stealth design, low IR features like SC capability, or by giving away as less signals as possible, using the most modern techs.* All that is including in the FGFA, which is why it will give IAF a huge advantage in adding new combat tactics and we really need the twin seat version, to further increase these NG tactics with AURA UCAV in future too.



No matter how stealthy you are you cant avoid air friction between fuselarge & wings of a plane .It would be detected by an IRST . But until & unless you are not in active mode to alert your enemys 

Same can be said for china also with J20 & J31 if paf opt for it 

PLUS in defensive mode they would be having an AWACS we wont
but those are for future 

*CHEERS*


----------



## DrSomnath999

*“...Rafale is the best fighter plane in the world” - Air Chief Marshal Denis Mercier*
By Claude Arpi






Appointed as the Air Force Chief of Staff (CEMAA) on September 17, 2012, at the age of 53, General Denis Mercier had joined the French Air Force academy in 1979 and qualified as a fighter pilot in 1983. With 182 combat missions and more than 3,000 flying hours (mostly on Mirage F1C and Mirage 2000C) throughout his career, he has acquired extensive experience both as an operational commander and as a fighter pilot. In 2008, he was appointed Commander of the French Air Force Academy in Salon de Provence. Prior to becoming Air Chief, he was posted as a senior Military Advisor in the Ministry of Defence.
Claude Arpi met him on his return from Jodhpur where the Indo-French joint exercises ‘Garuda V’ were being held. That day, General Mercier flew a Sukhoi-30 MKI, while his Indian counterpart, Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha flew a Rafale. Excerpts from the Interview


*LONG article only posting few interesting parts*

........*Yet, there is great hope that with the present government things will move faster.*

I am personally convinced that the Rafale is the best fighter plane in the world. I would therefore be delighted to see other major Air Forces being equipped with the Rafale. This is my take on the issue.............


........
*This year, all temperature records have been broken in Jodhpur. Did the heat have an impact on the current Garuda exercise?*

I have been asked this question already. In fact, the squadron that we deployed is permanently based in the United Arab Emirates. Therefore, the crew was not daunted by the heat in Jodhpur given their everyday experience. I recently went to Africa, where the temperature also reaches 50 degrees. So, one thing that we are certain about is that our aircraft can stand the heat very well, and I am tempted to say, the electronic equipment actually likes the heat. The only limitation in this regard is the human limit. The risk with these staggering heats is human fatigue. But the equipment has no problem, provided it is adequately shielded.........

.......*Can you envisage other collaborations with India? At a certain stage, for example, it had been considered to develop the engine of the Tejas, the Kaveri, in collaboration…*
Our cooperation is well under way at the tactical and operational levels, and has even reached new heights thanks to the Garuda exercises. In Jodhpur, I realised that we had never reached such a high level during previous editions, because we have been building this inter-operability over time, and this feeling was obviously shared by aircrew from both sides. What needs to be done next is a meeting of both Chiefs of Staff. I think it is important. I will invite the Indian Air Chief to see how we can make further progress in our cooperation.
…I have just drawn up a strategic plan for the French Air Force, which lays out our priorities. We discussed this briefly, the Indian Air Force seems to be doing the same and I realise that we certainly have things to share.
We need to sit around a table and exchange our views on the challenges ahead. Following the publication of the French White Paper, I have just drawn up a strategic plan for the French Air Force, which lays out our priorities. We discussed this briefly, the Indian Air Force seems to be doing the same and I realise that we certainly have things to share. Viewing things from this angle; the sharing of our operational experiences and priorities might lead us to consider doing more together, which may also involve an industrial dimension. But our role as Chiefs of Staff is to start by reflecting on the nature of air power within our respective air forces beyond 2020. This will lead us to the rest.........

........
*Some questions about France now. What did the French Air Force learn from its latest campaigns in Libya or in Mali?*
In my view, the latest campaigns have demonstrated one thing: the first and foremost duty of an Air Force is to be responsive. We already possess this responsiveness through our two permanent missions. The first one is Air Defence, which requires us to react in a matter of minutes to ensure the sovereignty and protection of national airspace. The second is the Nuclear Deterrence mission, which also imposes stringent readiness constraints. It has to be assured according to a permanent alert posture decided by the President of the Republic.
Besides this, in the case of the first operations in Libya we were required to react within 24 hours. We were able to respond at such short notice thanks to our two permanent missions, whose execution implies constantly maintaining several air bases on alert, as well as information systems and command and control centres.
In the Mali operation, in order to stop the jihadists and to prevent them from regrouping and threatening the capital Bamako, we had to react in less than 48 hours. That is why we decided to strike directly from France, with a very long-range raid of almost ten hours of flight and more than 20 targets to strike. We had to do it.

We have also been close to performing other missions at other theatres of operation, each time at very short notice, within just a few hours. When we were asked to provide reassurance by participating in the air policing of the Baltic States, we also responded very quickly.
These operations have taught me one important lesson: I am now looking at ways to continue organising our Air Force so that, in addition to our two permanent missions, we possess this capability for immediate response from our national territory. Because the new capabilities we have today, the tactical and strategic airlift as well as our combat capability, now provide us with the required degree of responsiveness at very long range.

That is why, during a recent exercise, I wanted the Rafale to be deployed directly from the French mainland to the French Island of La Réunion, over 8,000 km away in the Southern Indian Ocean......

*How long was that flight?*

It took 10 hours and 40 minutes to reach there and 10 hours and 50 minutes to fly back.


*Did you break a record?*

Yes, we did. It was not just a long ferry flight; we also performed a simulated strike on the way. I wanted to demonstrate our ability to do this already now. We have also demonstrated our ability to ferry a Fennec helicopter with the new Airbus A400M military transport aircraft to French Guyana (South America) in record time. The A400M has also flown to Djibouti in the Horn of Africa and to Mali in the Sahel-Sahara region of Africa. The one key to all of this is the reorganisation of our air bases so that they can maintain their level of responsiveness, not only for the Air Defence and Nuclear Deterrence missions, but also for Strategic Projection abroad.

In the backdrop of on-going joint (tri-service) reforms, this requires us to reconsider a number of things, in some cases reverting to past concepts, such as actually operating from our air bases to launch air strikes, albeit thousands of kilometres away. The other key element that I wished to demonstrate, and recent operations have proved us right – which is always better – is the Command and Control Centre. Based in Lyon, it controls Air Defence missions over the French homeland, as well as all the operations we are currently conducting in Africa. All missions, whether in France or abroad, are now controlled from Lyon. The planning and control, no matter where the operation is in the world, is undertaken from Lyon in real time. This gives us an unequalled level of responsiveness, which no one else possesses in Europe, and, indeed, elsewhere – apart from the United States.

I really wanted to demonstrate this, and we have succeeded much faster than expected, which gives me great satisfaction. Because this centre is manned for Air Defence, I can ring up tomorrow, or in an hour’s time, and I’m sure to find people there at any time. I can tell them “I want this mission planned” and, whilst carrying on with Air Defence, they will plan a mission thousands of kilometres away. They are able to do this with competent people, who are on the watch round the clock.......

..........
*Does the use of drones, as you have done in Mali, interest the Indian side?*

Yes, I have been asked about our use of drones and our perspectives about their use in the future. There are different types of drones. Those used by our Air Force are the Medium-Altitude Long-Endurance (MALE) type, which can be sent thousands of kilometres away, which can fly 24 hours or more, which are remotely operated through satellites and whose images and data we can receive via satellite. These drones are of interest to Air Forces, as they provide a global and permanent vision of a theatre. But using such drones is complex, it requires mastering the networks. The Indian Air Force has this required mastery of networks and of managing complex missions, India is therefore absolutely capable of doing the same (while other Air Forces would find it more problematic). This is why, although there are still only few MALE drones today, I believe we will see more and more of this type in the future. But being able to operate this type of drone requires a comprehensive mastery of air operations, including the satellite segment. In other words, a certain maturity is needed......


.......*Which advice or which message would you like to give the Indian Air Force?*
I have no advice to give to the Indian Air Force. They have a great Air Force. Two things I would like to tell them: first, we should try to enhance our mutual knowledge, to know each other’s perspectives better, and to develop our cooperation beyond the Garuda exercise and beyond the operational domain. Second and last, I personally believe in the qualities of the Rafale, and I would therefore be delighted to see this great Indian Air Force operating the same plane as we do.....

Merci beaucoup, mon general!
“…Rafale is the best fighter plane in the world” – Air Chief Marshal Denis Mercier » Indian Defence Review | Page 2

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## greatone

French pilots are former air chiefs are always praising Rafale as the best in the world.
While our retd air chiefs miss no chance to take pot shots at Tejas.
What a shame!!


----------



## DrSomnath999

greatone said:


> French pilots are former air chiefs are always praising Rafale as the best in the world.
> While our retd air chiefs miss no chance to take pot shots at Tejas.
> What a shame!!


----------



## sancho

DrSomnath999 said:


> I am sorry to reveal that
> you embarrasingly citated a wrong example to prove your wrong POV



LOL nice try to distract from the actual matter.  

Especially when your own sources show exactly what I said about using the radar data of the Flankers (but it's true that it were just K's, although it doesn't matter for the actual matter) for surveillance, to guide the other passive fighters and not include them in the attack formations:



> USAF team leader Colonel Greg Newbech said:...
> ...“They made good decisions about when to bring their strikers in. *The MiG-21s would be embedded with a (MiG-27) Flogger for integral protection*. *There was a data link between the Flankers that was used to pass information. They built a very good (radar) picture of what we were doing* and were able to make good decisions about when to roll (their aircraft) in and out.”



That's what the AWACS or mini AWACS role is about, diverting radar or signal data to others, while operating seperated from them, to not make them vulnerable to detection and to remain safe yourself. 

So diverting that to the future IAF fleet, one could use LCA for escorting Rafale strike packages (both passive), while radar data of AWACS or active fighters, that operates outside of the enemy airspace, will be diverted by datalinks.



DrSomnath999 said:


> So whther stealthy or not IR emission from air friction from wings & fuselarge of a plane cant be ignored which the enemy fighter's IRST would detect it & no EW would work against IRST



Just that you have only a narrow field of view to detect IR signatures and that even to very low ranges. So compared to active radar detection, or signal detection via RWR, the IRST is the least useful sensor to provide early warning. So unless you have 100s of fighters, pointing their nose towards our airspace at any giving time, the chance to detect a strike package just by IRST is more than low. 



DrSomnath999 said:


> Hmm
> if your reffering to LIBYA example



No, I am refering on how Rafale or other fighters are used in SEAD operations. You always have 1 fighter that tries to provoke and detect the air defences and other, that will take them out. In Libya the only difference was, that the defence systems had low range and could be attacked with AASM from high altitude too, but if they are more capable, you need to bring the weapon closer to the target and the way to do that, is to avoid detection:

http://www11.pic-upload.de/12.09.14/g59er3ybged5.jpg


*


DrSomnath999 said:



Becoz with awacs no matter how low you fly & whther your are in active or passive mode if your not stealthy & you are flying within the detection range of AWACS , then you cant hide

Click to expand...

*
Which is not true, we know that low flying Russian fighters were able to avoid AWACS detection of US carrier groups. Greek Mirage 2000s and F16s were able to avoid E-2 detection during an exercise with the French carrier, not to mention that having AWACS alone doesn't help, if you can't put it in action in useful numbers to cover the whole area and in a useful rotation as it is the case for us now. We are able to support our fighters and ground troops with AWACS in war times today, but we are not able to provide a full coverage of the border areas at 24/7 anytime soon and only if that is possible, with additional overlapping features like aerostats and ground radars, you will get a high possibility to counter low level attack approaches.



DrSomnath999 said:


> & that is for IAF's 2 front strategy basically which includes a vastly outnumbered adversary CHINA plus well trained PAF.I am stressing about PAK border line only.



The 2 front war is not a strategy, but the worst case that IAF is trying to prepare for. Therefor they need to be able to have full AWACS coverage of both boder sides at any given time, not only at 1, which is why they estimate that they need around 15 x AWACS to do that in a propper rotation. 

*


DrSomnath999 said:



why do you beleive it doesnt serve security of the nation ???

Click to expand...

*
Because of the low numbers! We need more aircrafts in the air to cover all areas and at the same time enough aircrafts on the ground to have a propper rotation, that's why I want more EMB DRDO AWACS as soon as possible and not waste time with a new AWACS development. 



DrSomnath999 said:


> & why am i doubting becoz i dont know any recent updates about novator i have been listening about this from quite a sometime but no latest updates or news have been published about it
> so thats why i am skeptical.



Exactly, just as I am skeptical about it, so why bother to argue with it, if we don't know if it's developed let alone inducted into IAF? It's a mystery and claiming we can easily take out enemy AWACS with that then doesn't make sense. 



DrSomnath999 said:


> we wont be having in offensive scenario in their land



Wrong, that's even what Rafale or the coming upgrades of MKIs with long range attack capabilities are about, hittin China deep in their hinterland, be it from distance or by penetrating and the importance of that should be very obvious too, because the only way to counter their numerical superiority in the air, is to attack their airbases on the ground. The more you take out or at least damage to keep them out of operations for a certain time, the less opponents you have in the air and that includes their AWACS aircrafts.
That's even the common tactic in all wars, even against far less capable countries (Libya, Iraq, Kosovo war up to the WW's), reducing the combat capability of the enemy air force by destroying as many air bases belongs to the first attacks in a war.


----------



## sancho

greatone said:


> French pilots are former air chiefs are always praising Rafale as the best in the world.
> While our retd air chiefs miss no chance to take pot shots at Tejas.
> What a shame!!



We are hitting the project, since the development and the management is a mess. The fighter itself is needed and wanted but with all the problems and delays, frustration should be obvious. But even if it would be available today, I doubt that the officials would claim Tejas to be the best fighter in the world.


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## greatone

sancho said:


> We are hitting the project, since the development and the management is a mess. The fighter itself is needed and wanted but with all the problems and delays, frustration should be obvious. But even if it would be available today, I doubt that the officials would claim Tejas to be the best fighter in the world.



I was just showing the difference in the approach of the two sets of professionals when it comes their homegrown aircraft.
Is Rafale really the best in the world ?

_Kya objectivity ka theka sirf IAF ke pas hai ?
_
What stops French pilots from bitching to the media about the how underpowered the engine is or the low number of modules on Rafale's radar among other things ?


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## Storm Force

Superboy

Tell me THE THUNDER is the best lol lol


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## Superboy

Storm Force said:


> Superboy
> 
> Tell me THE THUNDER is the best lol lol




Most advanced body design in the world. DSI baby


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## Storm Force

I hear Superboy.

Advanced fighter WITH budget low cost 

GREAT FOR PAF

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Trawllu

Rafale is in trouble 

EFT counter offer is tempting


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## kaykay

Trawllu said:


> Rafale is in trouble
> 
> EFT counter offer is tempting


Irrespective of some speculative media reports, Rafale is very much on the track as also confirmed by our IAF chief just few days back.

Defence News - India nears MMRCA deal with France


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## Trawllu

kaykay said:


> Irrespective of some speculative media reports, Rafale is very much on the track as also confirmed by our IAF chief just few days back.




the EFT offer has been discussed with PM directly By germans 

it is very much true 
very juicy offer 
very actively being considered


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## Superboy

Rafale should just die. Serious. After 15 years, no foreign buyer. What a failure.


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## YouGotRouged

Superboy said:


> Rafale should just die. Serious. After 15 years, no foreign buyer. What a failure.



After 11 months, 2,431 posts, no argument of substance. What a tragedy...


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## DrSomnath999

*The French flights over Iraq began*








On Monday morning, the first French military flights began over Iraq at the start of the United Arab Emirates _(AFP photograph of a Rafale based Al Dhafra) _. Recognition, precise does one initially.

While the Paris conference on Iraq began, two Rafale took off from the base Emirati Al Dhafra. It is conveniently located about two hours flight from the war zone against the Islamic state .





" _As of this morning, the first reconnaissance flights will take place with the agreement of the Iraqi authorities and Emirati authorities _, "said the defense minister, Jean-Yves Le Drian, on site. " _Be ready to respond _, "said he added to 200 750 military base in the United Arab Emirates.

Six Rafale are usually based at Al Dhafra BA104. They are 3/33 Lorraine Squadron. We must add a Boeing C-135 refueling aircraft and Atlantique 2 of the Navy who did not wait to make his intelligence work and recognition. Primordial.

*No boots on the ground except trainers, air commandos*

If the official doctrine is " _no boots on the ground _", it is obviously nothing. In addition to the agents of the DGSE, it takes with trainers, probably soldiers land special forces, to accompany the Kurdish peshmerga in the learning of French material.

Who says next bombing, also said air or targeting support. As in the Harmattan operation in Libya in 2011, commandos and CPA10 CPA20 (paratroopers from the air), specialized in supporting engagement in depth fighter jets are on site.

The ability to land quietly in Kurdish territory in Erbil facilitates this necessary deployment. These TACP (training _Tactical Air Control Party _) are generally small autonomous teams of a dozen military including an operator target designation, a forward air controller, transmitter ... This is the invisible part of a bombing operation.

Since late August, recall that a Group operational transport (GTO) has also been set up at Al-Dhafra for airdrops of humanitarian supplies (and weapons). This GTO is formed of two Transall C-160 NG of BA105 Evreux (Anjou and 1/64 2/64 squads Béarn). He works with a detachment of widths from 1 (RTP transportation battalion paratrooper) Francazal near Toulouse.
Les vols français au-dessus de l'Irak ont commencé : Défense globale

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## pursuit of happiness

Superboy said:


> Rafale sucks. True story. Even France doesn't want it.


--
becuase it do not have DSI


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## DrSomnath999

sancho said:


> *LOL nice try to distract from the actual matter.*
> 
> *Especially when your own sources show exactly what I said about using the radar data of the Flankers (but it's true that it were just K's, although it doesn't matter for the actual matter) for surveillance, to guide the other passive fighters and not include them in the attack formations:*
> 
> 
> 
> That's what the AWACS or mini AWACS role is about, diverting radar or signal data to others, while operating seperated from them, to not make them vulnerable to detection and to remain safe yourself.


What !!
"distract from actual matter " Roflmao 
ok my lord whatever pleases you !!

but sadly again i want to state nowhere did i find mini awacs cant be used for offensive ( enemy's air space) .
meanwhile as all the exercise had held in india & it makes a jack sense that mini awacs concept cant be used in foreign land

which was our main point of discussion







sancho said:


> So diverting that to the future IAF fleet, one could use LCA for escorting Rafale strike packages (both passive), while radar data of AWACS or active fighters, that operates outside of the enemy airspace, will be diverted by datalinks.



Day by day sancho your post standards is going into gutters
your saying we would be using LCA for escorting rafale in foreign land eg CHINESE airspace meanwhile ignoring much capable SU 30mki for that mission. IF your mean LCA mark 1 i am afraid it's limited flying hour & range plus limited number of BVRAAM capabilty if carries 2EFT s really makes it really unsuitable for long range missions if you try to divert this blunderous post by replying i meant for LCA mark2 then i dont think it is going to be inducted anyway before 2020.








sancho said:


> Just that you have only a narrow field of view to detect IR signatures and that even to very low ranges. So compared to active radar detection, or signal detection via RWR, the* IRST is the least useful sensor to provide early warning.* So unless you have 100s of fighters, pointing their nose towards our airspace at any giving time, the chance to detect a strike package just by IRST is more than low.






that is for previous gen IRST not for long wave IRST have higher detection range. But we dont know the what type of IRST the chinese have so we cant ignore that possibilty that they could have acquire that IRST too also by fair or unfair means. We Cant underestimate the chinese ' capabilty
& IRST is not used for early warning as it is used for targeting basically that too passively immune to jamming .


Signal detection via RWR has it's limitations how many times i have to repeat that




you again back tracking from prevoius posts

*you have said even in active mode a stealth plane is also less detectable than non stealthy fighter*

what i want to say

AESA tech remains the same for any gen fighter so if AWACS RWR/ Fighter plane RWR detects it's EM emissions then they are alerted of some flying object . So The fighter which have IRST can head in that direction in a passive mode to detect the threat .

So IR emisions of any plane through air frictions cant be neglected so an IRST would detect that plane if it remains still in active mode by closing in through that direction where EM emissions are coming .


*But if the active mode stealth fighter diverts away from the passive stealth fighter package (formation) then only the passsive stealth package wont be detected by patrolling fighters or else cover would be blown for passive stealth fighter package (formation) *









sancho said:


> No, I am refering on how Rafale or other fighters are used in SEAD operations. You always have 1 fighter that tries to provoke and detect the air defences and other, that will take them out. In Libya the only difference was, that the defence systems had low range and could be attacked with AASM from high altitude too, but if they are more capable, you need to bring the weapon closer to the target and the way to do that, *is to avoid detection:*
> 
> http://www11.pic-upload.de/12.09.14/g59er3ybged5.jpg



Yes that is main part
how could you avoid detection in SEAD mission against enemies which have


a)long range SAM radars & SAM missiles

b) AWACS

c) aerostat


without the use of *Electronic Warfare* in case of Non stealthy fighters with {EFTS & PGMS/CRUISE MISSILES}no matter how low you fly plus whether you are in active or passive mode .

Rafale has this advantage which gives him the edge over SU 30 mki which has to carry external jamming pods to do the same thing .

Rafale's EW also includes Active cancellation tech plus with advent of AESA radar it can be used for EA
SU 30mki EW would also improve with induction of AESA radar plus latest russian tech on EW

The US are also still inversting on EA -18 growler future upgrades even if they may be having 5th gen fighters .













sancho said:


> Which is not true, *we know that low flying Russian fighters were able to avoid AWACS detection of US carrier groups. Greek Mirage 2000s and F16s were able to avoid E-2 detection during an exercise with the French carrier, not to mention that having AWACS alone doesn't help, *if you can't put it in action in useful numbers to cover the whole area and in a useful rotation as it is the case for us now. We are able to support our fighters and ground troops with AWACS in war times today, but we are not able to provide a full coverage of the border areas at 24/7 anytime soon and only if that is possible, with additional overlapping features like aerostats and ground radars, you will get a high possibility to counter low level attack approaches.



citing one or two examples doesnt prove that it would work always in other scenario also.

You must understand that those examples which you have posted has many different factors which needs to be weigh in to come
into any conclusions

1) Topography
sea water is usually flat meanwhile land has uneven surfaces ( Plaetaeu + mountains + Trees + buildings) one cannot fly
uniformly low above land like that someone flies above the surface of sea water

what i meant to say despite having Terrain avoiding softwares installed in a plane you got to fly sometimes high plus low in order to avoid collision which can make you vulnerable in detection sometimes

2) E 2 previous versions were inferior compare to latest version E2d
plus you never know had the fighter planes used their EWs or not along with flying low !!!

3) In land you gonna have other factors also along with AWACS like aerostat plus reconnaise UAVs for surveillance plus NET centric warfare combinations (advanced satellite connectivity plus Cyber ) avoiding their detection purely on basis of low flying without use of EW suite for a nonstealthy plane . I would say Then the pilot must be a damn lucky guy if it indeed goes undetected .




sancho said:


> The 2 front war is not a strategy, but the worst case that IAF is trying to prepare for. Therefor they need to be able to have full AWACS coverage of both boder sides at any given time, not only at 1, which is why they estimate that they need around 15 x AWACS to do that in a propper rotation.



Infact plans are there for 20 awacs if you trust citations on wikipedia .But time would tell how many india does inducts
in future







sancho said:


> *Wrong,* that's even what Rafale or the coming upgrades of MKIs with long range attack capabilities are about, hittin China deep in their hinterland, be it from distance or by penetrating and the importance of that should be very obvious too, because the only way to counter their numerical superiority in the air, is to attack their airbases on the ground. The more you take out or at least damage to keep them out of operations for a certain time, the less opponents you have in the air and that includes their AWACS aircrafts.
> That's even the common tactic in all wars, even against far less capable countries (Libya, Iraq, Kosovo war up to the WW's), reducing the combat capability of the enemy air force by destroying as many air bases belongs to the first attacks in a war.



Hey wait a minute
you have twisted my post to post totally another thing. The previous post was for AWACS basically when did i say it cant
carry cruise missile .

But ok you have started another topic regarding Air launch long range cruise missile

sadly the same scenario applies for Cruise missiles what do you think latest SAMs are for to engage only planes or what!!

they can also engage cruise missiles & drones also

plus AWACS/AEROSTAT combination can also detect low flying terrain hugging cruise missiles also

The fighter jets can also be used to target cruise missiles if they are in patrol in the skies




Stealth cruise missiles can be taken by missile shape or design or by default as it is terrain hugging

plus high speed cruise missile gives less reaction time to their targets to react



but once again it 's effectiveness depends upon the strength & weakness of the self defence of it's target which includes everything which i have posted for aircraft also .

*THe point is to detect the cruise missile as early as possible to engage/intercept them succesfully*

Interesting i have read somewhere french were trying to use active cancellation tech for Cruise missiles also









Rafale, Dassault-Breguet

*CHEERS*


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## halloweene

> Who says next bombing, also said air or targeting support. As in the Harmattan operation in Libya in 2011, commandos and CPA10 CPA20 (paratroopers from the air), specialized in supporting engagement in depth fighter jets are on site.
> 
> My friend, don't mix CPA10 and CPA 20 plesae... Or we'll have an issue. Presence of CPA20 is dubious as they are not part of COS. I'd bet on 13 RDP instead
> 
> 
> Source: Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions | Page 667



Two new study plans from DGA, one fro EFCAS, one for Rafale...

ttu » Coopération et souveraineté


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## DrSomnath999

*L’Armée de l’air, an Instrument of Power for France
SALON DU BOURGET 2013*











one interesting find that caught my attention






interesting concept if indeed happens in future with SPECTRA NG guiding cruise missiles from
a stand off range

*CHEERS*


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## DrSomnath999

halloweene said:


> Two new study plans from DGA, one fro EFCAS, one for Rafale...
> 
> ttu » Coopération et souveraineté



Mate

what is the advanatge of these 2 programs 

can you please elaborate on that

*CHEERS*


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## sancho

DrSomnath999 said:


> but sadly again i want to state nowhere did i find mini awacs cant be used for offensive ( enemy's air space)



Guess why the IAF used the Flankers seperated from the Mig 27s and why the Bisons escorted them? IAF could simply had used the Flankers to escort and provide radar data right? So when they purposely decided to seperate the mini AWACS from the strike package and their escorts, do you really think that was done for no reason?
The fact is right there, even in your own sources, you just have to understand that the priority is to remain undetected as long as possible when you send strike packages behind enemy lines and remaining behind and support them "just" with radar data without making them vulnerable is the better thing to do. As I said before, that changes only with FGFA, since we then can modify the tactics benefiting from the low detectability of the fighter even in active roles. 



DrSomnath999 said:


> your saying we would be using LCA for escorting rafale in foreign land eg CHINESE airspace



Please read up propperly and don't invent things. Where in that post did I mention Chinese airspace? I only related the same tactics IAF has shown in that exercise with older fighters, to the future fighter fleet and the modern capabilities it will have. And LCA as the replacement of the Mig 21s, but with far better passive detection and low detectability can easily take over the escort role in future, that however doesn't mean that IAF would use deep penetration missions against China, where simply more Rafales would be more effective.



DrSomnath999 said:


> IRST is not used for early warning as it is used for targeting basically



Exactly, that's why IRST won't make a difference unless you have detected a target, be it via radar or signals. Only then you point your nose and sensors towards the target to identify it. That's why an FGFA with an AESA that has LPI modes will be very hard to detect by any Chinese fighter, unless it flys head to head in a very close distance. The importance of AWACS and mini AWACS however is, to detect a target at long distance and to a wide field of view, that's why they use active radar and passive RWRs as their main sensors and not IRST.
And since we talk about the Rafale here, in passive mode it's prime sensors are the SPECTRA EW sensors, for long range and wide field of view detection. When a target is detected, the fighter will point it's nose to the target, to use FSO to gain more data and identify it. Which again shows, which again shows that the IRST / TV channel are the secondary sensors only.



DrSomnath999 said:


> without the use of *Electronic Warfare* in case of Non stealthy fighters with {EFTS & PGMS/CRUISE MISSILES}no matter how low you fly plus whether you are in active or passive mode



Who said they wouldn't use EW? The point was, that you use an active high flying fighter (at safe distances) to lure the enemy defences to be actived, while a low flying passive fighter will remain as undetectable as possible, while closing in to the target. That again shows, that the mini AWACS role is done in seperation to the actual striker!



DrSomnath999 said:


> citing one or two examples doesnt prove that it would work always in other scenario also.



But it shows the reality and not only assumptions, that's the difference! It shows that even the most advanced AWACS aircrafts, with the most advanced fighters next to it, can't prevent attacks against you, without the propper addition of multiple different radar working together and that you need a propper AWACS coverage to all areas. That's why we need not only the most advanced Phalcon AWACS, but enough AWACS platforms to provide propper coverage of the border areas in the first place. That added with netcentric linking of ground radars, aerostatos or fighters in Mini AWACS roles will give you a high level of protection and not the assumption that AWACS can detect everything.



DrSomnath999 said:


> Hey wait a minute
> you have twisted my post to post totally another thing. The previous post was for AWACS basically when did i say it cant carry cruise missile .



Again please read propperly, in this case the part I quoted from you, where you stated:



> we wont be having in offensive scenario in their land



So that is the part I refered to be wrong, which it clearly is, since the importance of improved strike capabilities with MMRCA and MKI beyond the borders can't actually be denied anymore and I am not even talking about cruise missiles, but about actual offensive strikes of the fighters, no matter what kind of weapon they will use.


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## sancho

greatone said:


> I was just showing the difference in the approach of the two sets of professionals when it comes their homegrown aircraft.



If they had faced the same trouble with Rafale that IAF did with LCA, they probably would, but they didn't so their reaction to having one of the best 4.5th gen fighters in the world, that is inducted in high numbers since a decade (pretty much the same timeframe IAF wanted to start LCA induction), that successfully has proven it's worth in war times is nothing but logical, while the dissappointment about LCAs current state from IAF's point of view is logical as well. The only point that IAF should had avoided is, these constant referals to the Mig 21, because that doesn't propperly show the worth that LCA can have, if it is fully developed.



greatone said:


> What stops French pilots from bitching to the media about the how underpowered the engine is or the low number of modules on Rafale's radar among other things ?



Maybe because it isn't underpowered at all (one of the highest TWRs, SC capability, exellent performance in the UAE climate against the F22 or in Libya with heavy loads..., that myth really should be busted by now), or the fact that they prefer to use it's exceptional passive sensors over the radar. It is not perfect and I don't think even the French would say so, but it is without any doubt one of the best fighters currently, with a lot of unique and high end capabilities that sets it apart. Things we simply can't say from LCA at the moment, even if it has good potential for a light class fighter. 

Isn't it enough that ADA and DRDO denied the realities about how capable they are for decades and that only for pride reasons? Do we really need our forces to be as irrational about LCA as well?


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## sancho

DrSomnath999 said:


> interesting concept if indeed happens in future with SPECTRA NG guiding cruise missiles from
> a stand off range



That's nothing new about SPECTRA, but about a different approach in SEAD than the US has and we already have seen that in Libya. The point is, that the Americans uses dedicated EW fighters to detect air defences and take out radars, while other fighters with glide or normal PGMs would take out the missiles. The Rafale on the other side, can do it all alone and with the AASM in a single attack. Detecting and pinpointing the target via SPECTRA and Damocles, attacking the radar and the missiles with the same weapon from stand off ranges in a single pass. For longer ranges SPECTRA target data can be diverted to Scalp cruise missiles too, the problem however lies in the huge gap between AASM with 60Km and Scalp with 290+ Km. That's where SPEAR 3 or SPICE 250s kind of weapons will bring in more capability from even better ranges than AASM, including more versatility in the attack itself.

The brits plan with the EF as a replacement for their SEAD specific Tornados, which is why they want to add Electronic Attack capabilities to the Captor E AESA, as well as SPEAR 3 missiles next to Storm Shadow, to add long range attack capability at high or low level approaches. They already have proven to be able to detect air defence radars with their current EWS in Libya, but didn't had the capabilities to attack them.

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## halloweene

@ Sancho you are right, Rafale isn't perfect! Just a very coherent weapon system...


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## sancho

halloweene said:


> @ Sancho you are right, Rafale isn't perfect! Just a very coherent weapon system...



No fighter is, not even the F22 that is considered as the best fighter in the world. But when you want a highly advanced non stealth fighter, with true multi role capabilities today and can afford it, there is nothing better on the market than the Rafale.


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## sancho

> *Dassault chief to visit Delhi to discuss delay in MMRCA deal*
> 
> The chief of French firm Dassault Aviation SA, which has been selected for supplying 126 medium-multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) to the Indian Air Force (IAF), will be in New Delhi later this week to meet top defence ministry officials to discuss delays in finalization of the multi-billion dollar contract. The firm was selected two years back by India for supplying 126 Rafale medium-multi-role combat aircraft to the Air Force. The firm’s chief executive officer (CEO) Eric Trippier is scheduled to meet top defence ministry officials to discuss issues related to finalization of the much-delayed contract, sources said. India and the French firm have been discussing the deal for over two years. The negotiations have lately slowed down over some issues, including the imposition of liquidity damages or penalties for any delays in the supply of the aircraft to be manufactured in the country. The cost of the biggest-ever single deal is also likely to come up for discussion during the two sides...



Dassault chief to visit Delhi to discuss delay in MMRCA deal - Livemint


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## halloweene

He is indeed in India. To discute delays is disputable... But i didn't say anything.


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## halloweene




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## 1000

Rafale take off from UAE, recon operation over Iraq & refueling from a few days ago.





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=820589867962745


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## halloweene

They bombed yesterday. destroyed 5 stationary targets as they used only 4 gbu12, probably ammos depots. In coordination with an Atlantique 2 doing ISR


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## sancho

halloweene said:


> They bombed yesterday. destroyed 5 stationary targets as they used only 4 gbu12, probably ammos depots. In coordination with an Atlantique 2 doing ISR




















Source: Armée française - opérations militaires OPEX (page officielle) - Photos | Facebook


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## sancho




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## sancho



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## DrSomnath999

*UPSTREAM STUDIES 
Developments for the Rafale*

*TWO PEA INTENDED TO IMPROVE THE PERFORMANCE OF FRENCH AIR COMBAT IN DETECTION AND ELECTRONIC WARFARE.*

The need for export support overcomes the cult of confidentiality that usually accompanies the evolution of programmed Rafâle.An Paris Air Show, the Directorate General of Armaments and presented at its stand two upstream study program (PEA ). currently funded. to improve the performance of the French fighter in the detection and electronic warfare.

*INCAS*
It was, for the first time presented to the public a PEA called Incas (Integration of new capabilities to Spectra), which has two sub-parts. One, we have already presented several
, rçprises "in" An & Cosmos "■ focuses on the development of a new antenna operating Spectra gallium nitride (GaN).



Unpublished, the LEA (active electromagnetic Lure) project was, however, presented for the first time at the Paris Air This involves the development of a deployable asset lure that would confuse the seeker of some air missiles -air in their terminal phase guidage.At least four decoys could be carried away by a rafale in the same location as the current chaff at the rear of the fuselage. Contrary to that team for example "Eurofighter, this lure would be towed by the plane, but dropped: he would not have either of propellant.

"Such a system would effectively complete the Spectra system, already integrated in the aircraft, to thwart some very specific threats such as homing air-to-air missiles operating in the Ka band," says, in the lounge, an engineer of armament .

The DGA had also for the first time, called PEA Tragédac. Notified in 2010, it aims to equip the Rafale with a capacity of passive target localization thanks to a set of device network had the same patrol. Specifically, two Rafale detecting a target

through either their frontal sector optronics (OSF) or Spectra could improve the positional accuracy of their aim or exchanging data via the link 16 A change purely logicicllc but, according to DGA. would be especially complex to implement the point of view of the data synchronization between the devices.The first test flights should start by year-end to collect data


*CARAA*
Even if they were not presented at Le Bourget, others are now turning PEA consulting firms Dassault and program partners. This is the case of PEA Caraa (additional capabilities for radar â active antenna), awarded to Thales in late 2011 and aims to put the develop a material modification to the radar to make it more efficient to face evolving threats has low speed and low altitude, but also to make it capable of detecting ground targets.

From a technical perspective, the idea is to divide the large antenna subsets, each consisting of a few hundred transceiver modules each of these subsets then enjoying a digitizing the signal that would be her own. So that today, all Elements, radiant are ultimately combined into one lane.Thales should test flight, the 2014-2015 horizon. Such an amendment to aidc of one of its prototypes RBE2-AESA.

*DEDIRA*
Top Secret, PEA Dédira (demonstrator Rafale discretion) does. however, been no communication the living room, and has also never been formally addressed. This work, aimed at improving stealth Rafale, however, subject of a major fundraising effort for several years, corroborating sources, raw changes should be tested shortly size, are they? Mystery ...


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## DrSomnath999

sancho said:


> Guess why the IAF used the Flankers seperated from the Mig 27s and why the Bisons escorted them? IAF could simply had used the Flankers to escort and provide radar data right? *So when they purposely decided to seperate the mini AWACS from the strike package and their escorts, do you really think that was done for no reason?*
> The fact is right there, even in your own sources, you just have to understand that the priority is to remain undetected as long as possible when you send strike packages behind enemy lines and remaining behind and support them "just" with radar data without making them vulnerable is the better thing to do. As I said before, that changes only with FGFA, since we then can modify the tactics benefiting from the low detectability of the fighter even in active roles.



The problem is you are not posting anything to support your claim of *"Mini AWACS cant be used in offensive mission"* & also you cant

What You are posting has nothing to do with your prevoius claims of"Mini AWACS cant be used in offensive mission" 
rather the source says the mini awacs plane is diverted from strike package to prevent detection of strike package 

so does that mean MINI AWACS cant be used in enemy air space 

If yes then i am wasting my time replying you 








sancho said:


> *Please read up propperly and don't invent things.* Where in that post did I mention Chinese airspace? I only related the same tactics IAF has shown in that exercise with older fighters, to the future fighter fleet and the modern capabilities it will have. And LCA as the replacement of the Mig 21s, but with far better passive detection and low detectability can easily take over the escort role in future, that however doesn't mean that IAF would use deep penetration missions against China, where simply more Rafales would be more effective.



embarrasingly
i am not the one which is inventing things rather you are inventing it 

as who wrotes this 


> So diverting that to the future IAF fleet, *one could use LCA for escorting Rafale strike packages (both passive), *while radar data of AWACS or active fighters, that operates outside of the enemy airspace, will be diverted by datalinks.



Source: Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions | Page 667

Escorting rafale strike packages where ?????
in pakistan or china you should have specified it as our previous discussion where china centric so how the
hell i know you were not mentioning china???

plus pakistan also when you have more capable Su30mki or rafale itself in order to escort rafale strike packages why would someone use LCA which can only carry limited no of BVRAAMS with EFTS with no internal IRST / RWR targeting capabilty even if it may have less RCS than Su30mki




sancho said:


> Exactly, that's why IRST won't make a difference unless you have detected a target, be it via radar or signals. Only then you point your nose and sensors towards the target to identify it. *That's why an FGFA with an AESA that has LPI modes will be very hard to detect by any Chinese fighter, *unless it flys head to head in a very close distance. The importance of AWACS and mini AWACS however is, to detect a target at long distance and to a wide field of view, that's why they use active radar and passive RWRs as their main sensors and not IRST.
> .



again the same old crap

i have said repeatedly that *AESA tech remains the same for any gen fighter whther 4th or 5th gen fighter
it applies for LPI also*
So why are you beleiving 5th gen fighter when in active mode wouldnt alert the enemy AWACS RWR or plane 's RWR meanwhile 4th gen fighter when in active mode would do it

So being passive in 1st place should be smart thing when your on a stealth mission deep into enemy land.

becoz to be in active mode your enemy would be alerted about you even if they cant detect you from a long range .That is not the priority for those kind of missions
& this sentence from yours proves it
"Exactly, that's why IRST won't make a difference unless you have detected a target, be it via radar or signals."

& sadly majority of chinese fighters now have IRST



















sancho said:


> Again please read propperly, in this case the part I quoted from you, where you stated:
> 
> 
> 
> So that is the part I refered to be wrong, which it clearly is, since the importance of* improved strike capabilities with MMRCA and MKI beyond the borders can't actually be denied anymore *and I am not even talking about cruise missiles, but about actual offensive strikes of the fighters, no matter what kind of weapon they will use.


sadly i can twist the same logic to you with *enemy with improved detection capabililty *

&
when you say improved strike capabilties
1st thing comes in my mind is it's Air to ground capabilties though other factors are also there



but Rafale is specialist in it than Su 30mki in that department though both have their advantages & disadvantages

one thing i like to ask can SU 30mki carry Scalp cruise missile on it's wings like rafale


*P.S really boring for me to replying this kind of posts *

*CHEERS*


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## PARIKRAMA

Took a break from PDF and when today i read through feeling a bit sad. We have still not closed rafale deal, still no clarity on FGFA nor about submarines . The Tejas MKII or MK1 FOC is still realistically long way off.

Oddly i dont understand one thing. Do GOI believes we need a capable Indian Air Force or do they feel we can just be the same way as we are at present? I thot the new government would close the deal and step up the speed in all defence matters... but sadly the speed is still not optimum. So many newsreports always citing odd figures of rafale price (16/20/22/24/28/30 Bn $$.. lol) and awesome discounts in eurofighters as if its a diwali sale on fighter jets. (Can u believe diwali sale on eurofighter??). and media as usual goes gaga over that not understanding why that same price was not in tender but now (just like cameron saying more power to scotland 2 days before the vote to swing the NO vote.

whats the future? we cant close this deal or what???


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## sancho

DrSomnath999 said:


> The problem is you are not posting anything to support your claim of "Mini AWACS cant be used in offensive mission"



No, the problem is that you ignore that it's the low detectability that has prime importance for offensive operations and not having an active radar. That's why you don't understand that using the mini AWACS tactics in offensive operations without having a 5th gen fighter, makes the strike package vulnerable. That's the reason why AWACS aircrafts or our Su 30s in that role, are used from defensive positions in safe distance to the enemy, seperated from other fighters in different missions. That's also why passive Mig 21s were used to escort strike packages (and not Su 30) in the Cope exercise, while the Su 30s played the mini AWACS role, or why M2Ks in A2A config escorted M2Ks and Jags in strike during Kargil war, while the more capable Mig 29s (better radar, IRST, can carry more missiles) provided only top cover and why in a future mission LCA could be used for escorts (rather than Su 30s), using the same advantage of low detectability too.
That's also why you don't understand, that it doesn't matter IF an Su30 would get an AESA with LPI modes comparable to FGFA, because it's the low detectability (to radar and IR sensors) that gives FGFA the advantage to be used in offensive mini AWACS roles, because it's far more difficult to detect, even if operated at high altitudes. It can fly next or even in front of the strike package and would neither expose itself, nor make the strike package more vulnerable, contrary to the Su 30. That's why the latter will be used with the mini AWACS tactics only as shown above from defensive positions.
Ignoring that fact, although we have several even operational examples of IAF, how to use the tactics or how the fighters will be used according to their advantages, don't really make you understand things.

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## osama zafar

JF-17 <3


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## DrSomnath999

sancho said:


> No, the problem is that you ignore that it's the low detectability that has prime importance for offensive operations and not having an active radar.That's why you don't understand that using the *mini AWACS tactics in offensive operations without having a 5th gen fighter,* makes the strike package vulnerable.



& you ignore that low detectabilty is compromised when you are using an active radar(i.e turned on) no matter whether it is AESA or PESA) against an enemy having AWACS or jets with EM emission detection capabilty through their ESM (RWR)

as it can alert your adversary about something flying in the air .Then it would guide the IRST equipped planes to that direction .& then it can detect you no matter your stealthy or not if your are still in active mode







sancho said:


> That's the reason why AWACS aircrafts or our *Su 30s in that role, are used from defensive positions in safe distance to the enemy, seperated from other fighters in different missions*.



*yes !!! that the point separated from other fighters which includes in enemy land also & applicable to 4th/5th gen fighters also *
& what your stating is this scenario is only applicable in one's own land i.e non sense









sancho said:


> That's also why passive Mig 21s were used to escort strike packages (and not Su 30) in the Cope exercise, while the Su 30s played the mini AWACS role, or why M2Ks in A2A config escorted M2Ks and Jags in strike during Kargil war, while the more capable Mig 29s (better radar, IRST, can carry more missiles) provided only top cover and why in a future mission LCA could be used for escorts (rather than Su 30s), using the same advantage of low detectability too.


Those examples wont work against an enemy having AWACS Aerostats or planes with IRST

F15c were not having those
plus MIg 21 also had advantage of isreali EW suite 

*M2ks also have advantge of better EW & self protection suite *

& for lca mark1 in escort mission in a foreign land it has to field a simliar quality of EW suite as it has to carry 3 efts for that ,so how much RCS it would have you can calculate yourselfs 





sancho said:


> That's also why you don't understand, that it doesn't matter IF an Su30 would get an AESA with LPI modes comparable to FGFA, because it's the low detectability (to radar and IR sensors) that gives FGFA the advantage to be used in offensive mini AWACS roles, because it's far more difficult to detect, even if operated at high altitudes.* It can fly next or even in front of the strike package and would neither expose itself, nor make the strike package more vulnerable, contrary to the Su 30.* That's why the latter will be used with the mini AWACS tactics only as shown above from defensive positions.


LLOLLZ

seriously FGFA with it's radar active (i.e turnon)* can fly next to it strike package would neither expose itself nor make the strike package vulnerable .*

against plane with IRST (180 focal plane with long wave IR seeker IRST with multiple targeting cueing abilty) or with RWR targetting capability , after being guided by AWACS ESM systems

Sure try it & see what happens next

plus i have not mentioned VHF SAM radar part also in case the chinese may have fielded it 

The thing is still US is investing EA 18 growler as it knows stealth is not enough 





F-35′s Stealth, EW Not Enough, So JSF And Navy Need Growlers; Boeing Says 50-100 More « Breaking Defense - Defense industry news, analysis and commentary

plus i still beleive had EA 18 aircraft is being used in serbia wars no F117 plane have been shot down





sancho said:


> Ignoring that fact, although we have several even operational examples of IAF, how to use the tactics or how the fighters will be used according to their advantages,* don't really make you understand things*.


and again before lecturing me about aviation plz check those operational examples what are they applicable for i.e


a) for specific location eg in your own homeland where you have the numbers adavanatge 3:1

b) for specific threats /opponent eg ill equipped adversary with no AWACS/ no IRST / No EA aircraft




*sadly which china wont be having *



*P.S A sincere request to you stop PM ing me & i would be rather embarassing myself indeed if i agree with so called jingoistic claims of LCA mark1 escorting rafale in strike packages in foreign land without any dedicated EA aircraft or after SEAD. 

oh yes if you want me to back off indeed then plz stop quoting my post .There is a thin line for me between patience / annoyance if we stretch too much on this topic *



*CHEERS*

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## DrSomnath999

*M88 test engine to engine fire*

Operations in Libya have shown: the engine Rafale can hold a candle to any other Western engine. Snecma and other developments in his sleeve.

This is an engine that has reached the age of maturity. The M88 jet engine, which powers the Rafale, n! Not be ashamed of comparison with its American cousins. Last year, the operations in Libya was a true rite of passage for the jet engine Snecma. "The M88 has largely met our expectations," summed does one to SIMMAD (integrated structure operational maintenance of flight equipment for the defense), "we even consumed less potential than expected, because the missions included many phases conveyor. 

The engine also performs well in high temperature conditions. as shown by the operations on the basis of Al Dhafra. the United Arab Emirates. "Snecma side, the balance of Libyan operations is also positive: "There were no problems, and coordination with the forces was excellent," said Didier Desnoyers, Director of Military Engines Division at Snecma. A positive experience which helped return address with serenity commissioning,

last spring, the new standard TCO Pack (for total cost of ownership) or M88-4E. It extends the shelf life of certain parts critically in the hot parts. For now, a dozen M88 brought to this standard in the forces, by installing new parts during maintenance operations. 

*Standard production.* 

Meanwhile, the M88-4E became, in May, the only standard production factory in Melun-Viliaroche.






Since sixteen engines of this type have been delivered to Dassault Aviation. And the delivery of the first nine Rafale equipped M88-4E engines, expected shortly. 

*60% in more potential.* 

If the TCO Pack standard does not change the performance of the engine, it is nevertheless an important development at the operational level. Indeed, no less than 20% of the engine are modified, with improvements in the stator and rotor modules party high pressure (HP). Hence intervals elongated inspection. Referring to the NATO standard Tactical Air Cycle (TAC), which counts the number of "pulses on the throttle" that can be given to a motor between each inspection, the M88 passes a TAC 2500 cycles 4000 cycles. This leads him to the same level as the engines of the F-16 or F / A-18 American. "Basically, it was 60% more potential on parts that require more maintenance, "summed does one to SIMMAD. where it is envisaged that all the M88 in service are made to the standard TCO Pack in four to five years. 

Yet this standard will not be the last step in the evolution of the engine Rafale. "The M88 is a product we want to continue to evolve," says Didier Desnoyer. And therefore, may benefit in the coming years, the results of Theo, a technology acquisition program launched in 2003 and financed fi by DGA, to develop new technology of high pressure turbine. "We have already set pieces that would be to increase the engine thrust or her life, knowing that the latter option has already been covered with the Pack program CGP. says the Director of Military Snecma. These parts, which concern the high pressure turbine, have yet to be validated and should be bench testing in the coming years with a view to possible implementation in 2015 "We weapon the future, and increased thrust is a natural evolution for a fighter jet "engine, said Didier Desnoyer. 

*Do more push.* 

For the record. Snecma had already, in the past, proposed a more powerful version of the M88, dubbed M88-9. and whose unit with reheat thrust increased from 7.65 tonnes to 9 tonnes, as part of a request from the United Arab Emirates. Since then the project has been set side, knowing that the Air Force and Navy were also reluctant to the idea: "By increasing the pressure" could have consumed all the gain of CGP pack in terms of potential, which we were not interested , "says one in the forces. Snecma side, it ensures that the gain would have been "isocost" in terms of maintenance costs. Still, these new improvements should not affect the engine's potential. That could push the military to reconsider their judgment ... 

IN BLUE BOX

*India's hopes* 
On the sidelines of the M88, Snecma is still considering a possible collaboration with the Indians on a derivative thereof. "It's been a while since we discussed the Kaveri program. Idea is to create a joint development on an engine from September to October tons of thrust that would use high-pressure parts of the M88 adapted to new parts at low pressure, "says Didier Desnoyer. Difficult to know more, but the direction of Snecma recognizes that in addition to Indian laboratory GTRE (Gas Turbine Research Establishment), an Indian manufacturer is also involved in 
the discussions that take place in a "very good climate of transparency." 

Snecma, it insists that these negotiations are not related to the sale of Rafale in India. "These discussions have begun well before the selection of the aircraft," the motorist. But as Dassault Aviation, Snecma preparing technology transfer and industrial offsets for the M88. "There, it does not act to develop an engine with the Indians, but to allow them to produce the M88 at home.



*Julian Francis*


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## DrSomnath999

Rafale deal may be signed by Dec
24 September 2014, New Delhi, Pinaki Bhattacharya



 

 

 

 

 



_Indian government’s contract negotiation committee (CNC) for the medium, multirole combat aircraft (MMRCA), Rafale, has been given the draft contract document by the French aircraft manufacturer, Dassault. A top level Indian Air Force (IAF) source, while confirming this, said that they expect that the deal could be signed by December this year._






Long in negotiations, the contract is in the final stages of price fixing, the official said. According to him, the CNC will arrive at two prices at the end of talks. One will be ‘direct’ price, which will be actual cost of whole 126 aircraft the IAF plans to get – 18 in flyaway condition directly from Dassault, and 108 produced under licence by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL).

The other is Life Cycle Costing (LCC), which will cover the whole life of the aircraft in service with the IAF. This would include maintenance cost, overhauling costs among others.

The IAF sources complained about efforts by some Indians to sow doubts and make the IAF leadership ‘weak-kneed’ by publicising wrong information in sections of the media ‘at the behest of a foreign competitor’.

The other key element of the deal is the licence manufacture deal between Dassault and the HAL. There were large number of issues that were technology related. A senior HAL source stated: ‘Now those issues have been boiled down to two or three. They would also be taken care of soon.’

One gets a sense from all these conversations, that the IAF has got a signal from the political leadership of the government that it is now on more than ‘a wing and a prayer’. In other words, the force has got a green signal from the government to go ahead with the deal.

The senior official said that since the LCC has been in negotiation for the MMRCA, the same formula has been applied to 19 other vendors, including the Russians, and none of them had complained about the sanctity of the LCC. ‘Any of them could have taken us to court, if we were in the wrong.’

The first air assets that have been delivered under the LCC formula have been the Basic Trainer Aircraft (BTA), the Pilatus PC 7.

They are already flying in large numbers. ‘We were sure that we were in the right track when ministry of finance cleared our pricing, and it was sent to the Cabinet Committee on Security,’ the official said.
Rafale deal may be signed by Dec | Millennium Post

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## SpArK

*France's Rafales Are The First Non-U.S. Planes To Draw Blood Over Iraq*









France become the first country other than the US to attack ISIS targets in Iraq. Their Rafales carried out a raid on munitions depot and staging area in the northeast part of the country that supposedly killed dozens of ISIS fighters.

This comes after France pledged last week that it would support the anti-ISIS campaign with material and surveillance flights.

A pair of Rafales, apparently based out of Al Dhafra Air Base in the UAE, armed with four GBU-12 500lb laser guided bombs, were used on the raid. In addition, French KC-135Rs tankers andAtlantique II maritime surveillance and attack aircraft (yes they can carry bombs and missiles and were used in Mali to attack targets) also appear to be part of the French contingent to this as yet to be named international operation.

According to French President Francois Hollande:

The target was entirely destroyed... Other operations will follow in the coming days.

This will be the first time France has flown fighters over Iraq for well over a decade and a half, as they were not part of George W. Bush's 'Coalition Of The Willing' that took part in the 2003 invasion and the almost decade long (and should have been much longer) chaotic stabilization efforts that followed.

France's Rafales Are The First Non-U.S. Planes To Draw Blood Over Iraq

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## thesolar65

*S. Korea to pay $7 bn for 40 F-35A fighter jets*
S. Korea to pay $7 bn for 40 F-35A fighter jets - Yahoo News

That means for 120 planes(5th gen) the cost is 21 billion dollars. Then why we are going to purchase 126 planes(4.5gen) for 30-40 billion dollars? 
Please ignore my ignorance!!


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## MokshaVimukthi

thesolar65 said:


> *S. Korea to pay $7 bn for 40 F-35A fighter jets*
> S. Korea to pay $7 bn for 40 F-35A fighter jets - Yahoo News
> 
> That means for 120 planes(5th gen) the cost is 21 billion dollars. Then why we are going to purchase 126 planes(4.5gen) for 30-40 billion dollars?
> Please ignore my ignorance!!



Traditional pricing of any US aircraft is without the Engine. The Engine costs extra. 

Pratt & Whitney F135 engine cost somewhere between 14 million to 34 Million $ EACH  

Not to mention the lifetime maintenance cost.

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## raazh

SpArK said:


> *France's Rafales Are The First Non-U.S. Planes To Draw Blood Over Iraq*


I dont get the idea of glamorizing fighter planes on bombing runs of targets with zero resistance or retaliation threat. I mean how is this different to any other training mission inside France ?? I bet they could easily hit the same targets with cessna planes and unguided dumb bombs. Same goes for the USAF when they claim success rates for hitting targets in Afghanistan and Iraq.


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## halloweene

i understand your point of view, but.
Simply put you there is already simple news. Better feed media with that than pure speculations (we are nearly as good as indians on speculations, quickly leading to criticisms). Also prepare opinion for future strikes in Syria. One hostage was beheaded yesterday. Third point is to show that with limited means in Al Dhafra you can hit far from it.


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## sancho

@jha you will love this :



> *Saab offers #MakeinIndia plan for the Gripen*
> 
> *Saab's Lars-Olof Lindgren says his company has been quietly working on a plan to build the Gripen in India and has already done a lot of the homework for it.*
> 
> The Swedish defense and aviation company Saab has offered to make its Gripen fighter in India.
> 
> Chairman of Saab India, Lars-Olof Lindgren told StratPost about his company’s intention to offer the aircraft for production in India.
> 
> *This comes at a time when Prime Minister Narendra Modi has begun a campaign to encourage manufacturing industry, particularly foreign companies, to ‘Make in India’.*
> 
> “We are prepared to set up a joint venture company in India and produce, by and for India, by Indian workforce. You see the mix of a large number of Indian well-educated highly-skilled engineers and Sweden’s high technology in the field of aerospace – it’s a perfect match,” said Lindgren, a former Swedish ambassador to India...
> 
> ...“*We were working hard to be considered in the MMRCA*. We regret that we were not selected, but we have full respect for the Indian decision and the Indian process and we are not pitching at all, against that...



Saab offers #MakeinIndia plan for the Gripen (+ Video) | StratPost


So more chances for the MoD to delay another procurement?


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## jha

sancho said:


> @jha you will love this :
> 
> 
> 
> Saab offers #MakeinIndia plan for the Gripen (+ Video) | StratPost
> 
> 
> So more chances for the MoD to delay another procurement?




 Perfect... " produce, by and for India, by Indian workforce " .. This is catching.. I have always believed that only SAAB will offer "real" TOT and help us in shaping future variants of LCA. Lets see how Modi Govt. responds. One thing is for sure, if Dassault does not offer significant TOT, they are not going to get this deal.


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## sancho

DrSomnath999 said:


> plus MIg 21 also had advantage of * isreali EW suite *
> 
> M2ks also have advantge of better *EW & self protection suite*



Just as the Su 30 had and still it was not used for escort missions, so it's not the capability of the fighter in general that counts, but the low detectability isn't it? 



DrSomnath999 said:


> & for lca mark1 in escort mission in a foreign land it has to field *a simliar quality of EW* suite as it has to carry 3 efts for that ,so how much RCS it would have you can calculate yourselfs...
> 
> ...LCA mark1 escorting rafale in strike packages in foreign land *without any dedicated EA aircraft* or after SEAD.



Because IAF used always had dedicated EA and SEAD support strike missions...
...oh wait, they didn't!
So again you are claiming things that have nothing to do with each other. First it was the lack of missile carrying capability and IRST, when that was proven to be wrong, now you have doubt about LCAs EW, that is clearly superior to Mig 21s or M2Ks in Kargil and all that, only to deny that LCA can't be used in escort roles, as IAF did it with Mig 21s and M2K.


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## MokshaVimukthi

jha said:


> Perfect... " produce, by and for India, by Indian workforce " .. This is catching.. I have always believed that only SAAB will offer "real" TOT and help us in shaping future variants of LCA. Lets see how Modi Govt. responds. One thing is for sure, if Dassault does not offer significant TOT, they are not going to get this deal.



The Rafale ToT negotiations are all over. They have offered what they can and we have accepted it. Nothing more can be got. 

The RFP had defined the broad areas for ToT and they are in compliance. Its too late to change the rule of the game.


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## jha

MokshaVimukthi said:


> The Rafale ToT negotiations are all over. They have offered what they can and we have accepted it. Nothing more can be got.
> 
> The RFP had defined the broad areas for ToT and they are in compliance. Its too late to change the rule of the game.



Its never too late.


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## sancho

thesolar65 said:


> That means for 120 planes(5th gen) the cost is 21 billion dollars. Then why we are going to purchase 126 planes(4.5gen) for 30-40 billion dollars?
> Please ignore my ignorance!!



First of all, we pay something between $12 and 20 billion, depending on which fighter finally is chosen, secondly we want licence production under ToT, which is not on offer with F35, especially not with critical ToT, which was even a problem for the US M-MRCA participants. And the funny thing is, that F35 might be rejected by IAF for not even fitting to the basic requirements of TWR or G-Limits. So you can't compare the procurement of S. Korea with our competition, since the priorities were different. If they had the same as we have, they would had chosen the EF, since the industrial package was reportedly far better. 



jha said:


> Perfect... " *produce, by and for India, by Indian workforce* " .. This is catching.. I have always believed that only SAAB will offer "real" TOT and help us in shaping future variants of LCA. Lets see how Modi Govt. responds. *One thing is for sure, if Dassault does not offer significant TOT,* they are not going to get this deal.



Licence production of Rafale by HAL, Reliance, BEL, Samtel, Tata... => *make in India with Indian workforce! *

RBE 2 AESA full ToT to BEL, FSO ToT to Samtel, M88 ToT to HAL, can Saab offer the same without approval of foreign governments, or more significant ToT?

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## MokshaVimukthi

sancho said:


> Licence production of Rafale by HAL, Reliance, BEL, Samtel, Tata... => *make in India with Indian workforce! *
> 
> RBE 2 AESA full ToT to BEL, FSO ToT to Samtel, M88 ToT to HAL, can Saab offer the same without approval of foreign governments, or more significant ToT?



Are you aware that RBE2 AESA full ToT means that GaN txRx modules are imported and assembled together in BEL. The Chips are imported. Only the Circuit board is made here and BEL assembles all together. They then load the software which is provided and test it. 

The day they stop exporting the GaN modules, we cannot manufacture them "indigenously" any-more. 

In all probability the blades for M88 will be imported and assembled in HAL and that is the extend of "indigenous" manufacturing of the Engine. The day they stop exporting those blades, we cannot manufacture the engines any more. 

How is that any different from directly importing the Radar and Engines ?  

If you have any solid proof that we are going to manufacture engine blades from raw material, please share that.


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## halloweene

Bharat forge will. But why not ask them directly?

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## MokshaVimukthi

halloweene said:


> Bharat forge will. But why not ask them directly?



Do they have any experience in supplying blades for aircraft turbine engines ?


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## halloweene

No, i'm just citing a reliable french press source. They didt even name Bharat btw, but i think they are the only indian company building parts for BMW.
Experience is gained through work.

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## MokshaVimukthi

halloweene said:


> No, i'm just citing a reliable french press source. They didt even name Bharat btw, but i think they are the only indian company building parts for BMW.
> Experience is gained through work.



LOL. You say that because you do not know how HAL operates. Once HAL starts buying blades from France, it will never bother to buy from Indian suppliers. 

No unless france puts sanctions on us.


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## DrSomnath999

sancho said:


> Just as the Su 30 had and still it was not used for escort missions, so it's not the capability of the fighter in general that counts, but the low detectability isn't it?


Dear sancho

SU 30 K didnt have isreali EW suite rather SU 30 mki did which was nt involve in the exercise





Su-30 FLANKER

Low detectibilty = MIg 21 =Rofl 

plus what was it's opponent F15c = Mega rofl













sancho said:


> Because IAF used always had dedicated EA and SEAD support strike missions...
> ...oh wait, they didn't!


who was our primary enemy in our previous aerial wars what was their capabilty & what was the style of warfare at that time

plus Have you heard anything about * El/M-8222 Self Protection Pod*





ELTA MAKES SOME INCREDIBLY EFFECTIVE ELECTRONIC WARAFARE & JAMMING PODS | AviationIntel.com

i wonder which plane in IAF it is used & for what



plus why are we buying rafale then better ask yourselves & primarily against which new bigger threat in mind

how did that plane achieved SEAD mission so comfortably in LIBYA due to which system it has






sancho said:


> So again you are claiming things that have nothing to do with each other. *First it was the lack of missile carrying capability and IRST, when that was proven to be wrong,* now you have doubt about LCAs EW, that is clearly superior to Mig 21s or M2Ks in Kargil and all that, only to deny that LCA can't be used in escort roles, as IAF did it with Mig 21s and M2K.


1st of all those things are also important becoz
you better check all those fighters which are in air escort mission like all euro canards fighters for eg

what is their most favourable payload in escort mission
*a) maximum no of air to air missiles,* as their job is to escort planes & to escort them against whom ??obviously enemy aerial threats & how would do they do it by shooting them right !!!
How would they shoot it ?? obviously by missiles
so having more missiles is always good as you never how many fighter jets would come against you plus you cannot gaurantee every missile would hit your target

*b) IRST = passive detection* it is also form of stealth(low detectabilty) right which you are also boasting from the very beginning for those kind of missions right

another embarrasing stuff from your side is during kargil war
*MIG 29 provided air escort to Mirage 2k not passive Mirage 2k* plus Mirage 2k thanks to self protection suite survived stinger missiles from pak side which unfortunately low observable MIG 21 succumbed




this shows another thing how important a self protection suite of a plane is in combat .It can be
deciding factor *just plain LOW observabilty is not deciding factor* .



& hilarious stuff
LCA with 3 EFTS in an escort mission in a foreign land= LOw obseravble = Yeah Yeah its LO + L=

Thats why it's LCA EW suite should be equal level to that of all latest EW tech equivalent to all 4.5 gen fighters as facing against enemy's AESA radar awacs / fighter planes /Aerostat /SAM radars is totally different ball game altogether.


*"the fact is you are always thinking on one sided point of view , meanwhile ignoring the enemy's capabilty that is your biggest problem"*

Tell you what rafale's radar/electronic warfare suite cost is equal to 30% of rafale which makes it nearly half of the price of single LCA mark 1




PARIS AIR SHOW: Rafale's fighting chance

*so sincere request to you my dear Good-ol pal sancho kindly dont stretch this issue much further for your own benefit*


*CHEERS*

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## samy1618

MokshaVimukthi said:


> Are you aware that RBE2 AESA full ToT means that GaN txRx modules are imported and assembled together in BEL. The Chips are imported. Only the Circuit board is made here and BEL assembles all together. They then load the software which is provided and test it.
> 
> The day they stop exporting the GaN modules, we cannot manufacture them "indigenously" any-more.
> 
> How would you know that the TOT means only assembling of critical imported parts in this case chips N GaN rxtx... And software
> 
> In all probability the blades for M88 will be imported and assembled in HAL and that is the extend of "indigenous" manufacturing of the Engine. The day they stop exporting those blades, we cannot manufacture the engines any more.
> 
> And in this case tue blades
> 
> How is that any different from directly importing the Radar and Engines ?
> 
> If you have any solid proof that we are going to manufacture engine blades from raw material, please share that.



And tell me how u get these proofs if u r asking others.. First u reveal ur source N proofs before pointing fingures to other


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## MokshaVimukthi

samy1618 said:


> And tell me how u get these proofs if u r asking others.. First u reveal ur source N proofs before pointing fingures to other



Dum dum . I am not the one making claims of ToT here. The one making the claims have to prove it.


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## samy1618

MokshaVimukthi said:


> Dum dum . I am not the one making claims of ToT here. The one making the claims have to prove it.


Dums really speaks for them selves..isnt it @mokshaVimukhi... Its easy to point figures at others and criticise N contradict each N every stattement but is hard to back ur self with proofs..N again Mr. Dumb how in the right mind would any one make public the whole TOT documemts.. As this is also a closely guarded secret.. Even the TOT of bofor guns was a secret in it self...


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## jha

MokshaVimukthi said:


> Are you aware that RBE2 AESA full ToT means that GaN txRx modules are imported and assembled together in BEL. The Chips are imported. Only the Circuit board is made here and BEL assembles all together. They then load the software which is provided and test it.
> 
> The day they stop exporting the GaN modules, we cannot manufacture them "indigenously" any-more.
> 
> In all probability the blades for M88 will be imported and assembled in HAL and that is the extend of "indigenous" manufacturing of the Engine. The day they stop exporting those blades, we cannot manufacture the engines any more.
> 
> How is that any different from directly importing the Radar and Engines ?
> 
> If you have any solid proof that we are going to manufacture engine blades from raw material, please share that.



We have started manufacturing blades for SU-30 engines. However this has not helped us even one bit in designing the same for Kaveri. They just give us final procedure and do not teach us on how did they arrive at that metallurgy.

French were not ready to help us in Kaveri even when we promised them for co-development instead they wanted us to use Snechma core. It will be quite interesting to see how are they now promising 100% ToT.


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## MokshaVimukthi

samy1618 said:


> Dums really speaks for them selves..isnt it @mokshaVimukhi... Its easy to point figures at others and criticise N contradict each N every stattement but is hard to back ur self with proofs..N again Mr. Dumb how in the right mind would any one make public the whole TOT documemts.. As this is also a closely guarded secret.. Even the TOT of bofor guns was a secret in it self...



You should ask that to Sancho you freaking Moron  .... he is the one who is making all those tall claims.



jha said:


> We have started manufacturing blades for SU-30 engines. However this has not helped us even one bit in designing the same for Kaveri. They just give us final procedure and do not teach us on how did they arrive at that metallurgy.
> 
> French were not ready to help us in Kaveri even when we promised them for co-development instead they wanted us to use Snechma core. It will be quite interesting to see how are they now promising 100% ToT.



To manufacture super alloys that goes into making turbine blades we need a steady supply of Rare earth metals. 90% of which comes from China .

Even for the SU-30, I suspect the alloys are imported from russia. I have not come across any Indian company who makes these super alloys, much less manufacture blades out of them. 

Most of thee ToT is just screw driver technology. Most people are just too dumb to realise that. The only way you can build your own plane is by having your own R&D. There are no short cuts.


----------



## samy1618

MokshaVimukthi said:


> You should ask that to Sancho you freaking Moron  .... he is the one who is making all those tall claims.
> 
> 
> 
> To manufacture super alloys that goes into making turbine blades we need a steady supply of Rare earth metals. 90% of which comes from China .
> 
> Even for the SU-30, I suspect the alloys are imported from russia. I have not come across any Indian company who makes these super alloys, much less manufacture blades out of them.
> 
> Most of thee ToT is just screw driver technology. Most people are just too dumb to realise that. The only way you can build your own plane is by having your own R&D. There are no short cuts.


Mr. Crackpot with a shitty mind which is just spilling off... You dont have to reinvent a wheel if its be invented earlier.. And there r a lot of events in history where a single push has propelled many nations R&D to state of the art..do I have tp narrate all these to u again.. I dont think so.. And I dont have to ask to any one for proof just like u r doing..fist just wipe ur running nose N clerify UR I MEAN IT UR baseless points I mean give me proof. And this time dont do speculation stuff. And plz Mr. Dumb dont call on f cking bad names to others.. As it shows your mental state.. A retard


----------



## MokshaVimukthi

samy1618 said:


> Mr. Crackpot with a shitty mind which is just spilling off... You dont have to reinvent a wheel if its be invented earlier.. And there r a lot of events in history where a single push has propelled many nations R&D to state of the art..do I have tp narrate all these to u again.. I dont think so.. And I dont have to ask to any one for proof just like u r doing..fist just wipe ur running nose N clerify UR I MEAN IT UR baseless points I mean give me proof. And this time dont do speculation stuff. And plz Mr. Dumb dont call on f cking bad names to others.. As it shows your mental state.. A retard



listen you retarded shitface, don't waste my time with your dribble. Who the fcuk are you to ask for any proof asswipe. Calling you dumb is the most honest thing I can do. Now go buzz around somebody else. I don't have time to waste on a parasite like you. shoo.


----------



## samy1618

MokshaVimukthi said:


> listen you retarded shitface, don't waste my time with your dribble. Who the fcuk are you to ask for any proof asswipe. Calling you dumb is the most honest thing I can do. Now go buzz around somebody else. I don't have time to waste on a parasite like you. shoo.


Hay u rusted brain... Even I dont have any interest in having a fouled debate with a psychopath like u.. U just have to do one thing.. Stop using ur pessimistic. Brain and stop retaliating.. Jusy Rest In Peace...


----------



## DrSomnath999

*€ 89 million euros to develop the future radar "RAFALE"*

While Rafale operate for several days over Iraq, the Directorate General of Armaments (DGA) has ordered the Thales group studies of a new generation of active antenna radar designed to equip the aircraft French and the future air combat drone; whose drone nEUROn demonstrator continues its flight testing, especially from the Istres Provençal base.

According to the Ministry of Defence, this market of 89 million euros aims to demonstrate the relevance of technology multifunction panels and new modular architecture of computers. France, which in 2012 was the first European country to commission a fighter equipped with radar -the active antenna Rafale-, intends to maintain its technological lead in this area.

*Particularly discreet and with a very good resistance to interference, this type of radar can track include air or naval targets moving more than 200 miles away.*
Google Translate

@halloweene 

is this translation error or this new radar would have range of more than 200 miles

*DGA launches studies on next-generation active radar antenna*

Delegate General for Armaments, Laurent Collet-Billon, officially presented today at Jean-Bernard Levy, CEO of Thales, a technology education contract for the next generation of active antenna radar.

This project aims to demonstrate the technology multifunction panels and new scalable architectures calculator. These new antennas are designed to equip forward the Rafale fighter and future projects of air combat drones.




Representing 89 million over several years, this investment demonstrates the effort devoted by the state to maintain the technological lead of the French defense industry, particularly in the field of military aviation. After making their first European with active antenna radar serial Rafale, France intends to maintain its leading position in the field of airborne radars.

These studies will demonstrate the maturity of components and achieve multifunction antenna (radar, electronic warfare and communications). These new antennas will also offer a significant advantage in terms of scope and discretion of the aircraft and will maintain the highest level of technology the French combat aviation industry.

DGA invests in the industry on average € 730 million / year in preliminary studies during the 2014-2019 military program Act.

Google Translate

*will it be included in F3R or Rafale's MLU*

*CHEERS*


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## halloweene

Error in translation : the journalist stated 200 Kms.


----------



## sancho

DrSomnath999 said:


> Dear sancho
> 
> SU 30 K didnt have isreali EW suite rather SU 30 mki did which was nt involve in the exercise



They did, as they uses the same Israeli EW pod that IAF used on the Mig 21s or 27s. We further modified the internal EW at the MKIs from the Ks, the EW pod however remains the same till today and that will most likely change only by the next upgrade, when the MKI is likely to get the wingtip EW pods. But once again you only try to distract from your earlier claims, which was why would the Mig 21 / LCA be used in escorts when you have more capable Su 30s, or Mig 29s with better BVR capability or IRST and I proved you that IAF is exactly doing that and why, so you can keep posting unrelated stuff as much as you want, but you can't run away from the reality. 



DrSomnath999 said:


> who was our primary enemy in our previous aerial wars what was their capabilty & what was the style of warfare at that time



LOL another cheap try to distract from the fact that IAF doesn't have dedicated EA fighters, so it doesn't matter who the opponent was, since if you have that capability you use it for the protection of your own fighters and not based on the capability of the opponent. That's why the US are using Growlers and Prowlers in every war, be it Iraq, Kosovo or Libya. 



DrSomnath999 said:


> how did that plane achieved SEAD mission so comfortably in LIBYA due to which system it has



Due to the AASM weapon system! The Rafale and the EF were able to detect Libian air defences with their advances EW sensors, but only the Rafale was able to attack them, because they had a suitable stand off weapon, while the EF didn't! 



DrSomnath999 said:


> you better check all those fighters which are in air escort mission like all euro canards fighters for eg[



Not really, because all we need to know is, how the IAF uses fighters and how they use tactics! And when they replace older fighters with newer once, while remaining with the same tactics, they only implement the fighter. LCA is even designed and developed with the advantages and roles of the Mig 21 in mind (air policing, ESCORTS, CAS, low RCS, BVR and precision strike capability, data linked with AWACS or other fighters of IAF..., just a generation ahead of what the Bison offered back then), so it doesn't matter how the Eurocanards do it in NATO conflicts, since every country / force has it's own way and own tactics.



DrSomnath999 said:


> another embarrasing stuff from your side is during kargil war*MIG 29 provided air escort to Mirage 2k not passive Mirage 2k*




And another distraction! I never said the M2K was passive, that wasn't even the point, but the fact that the less capable fighter (M2K with limit missile and sensor performance) was used for the escort role, contrary to your believe that the more capable fighters are always used. It's hilarous how often and how bad you try to distract from your wrong claims, by going off topic to something completely different.


----------



## sancho

> *The Rafale Deal Should Be Scrapped And Renegotiated*
> 
> _The BJP’s stormy petrel *Subramanian Swamy* has for long been publicly opposed to the $22 billion Rafale deal, to the point of even suggesting that there was more to the UPA government’s choice than met the eye. In February 2012, _The Sunday Times_ of London quoted Swamy as saying he had initially been told the Eurofighter had won the deal to supply 126 fighter jets but that it all changed after the entry of a veteran French consultant, Bernard Baiocco, an ex-employee of the defence firm Thales, which contributes radar and electronic systems to Rafale. “Baiocco was here (in Delhi) and he went around, and everything changed after that,” Swamy had said, explaining the UPA’s sudden change of heart. With the Modi government poised to indicate its choice, Swamy spoke to *Pranay Sharma*. Excerpts._
> 
> _*What do you think of the Rafale deal?*
> 
> It stinks right through. The deal should be frozen or scrapped and negotiations for the MMRCA should begin afresh.
> 
> *Why do you say this?*
> 
> There are a number of reasons but foremost Rafale was finalised not through commercial negotiation; it was done by private conversations between Sonia Gandhi, her sisters and Carla Bruni, wife of then French president Nicolas Sarkozy.
> 
> *Your other objections...*
> 
> No country outside France has so far bought the Rafale. Some countries had shortlisted it, but rejected it later. We must find out why they did so. We must also know why it is so much more expensive than the other competitors. With the kind of money India has pledged to buy the planes, it can actually buy over the entire company that makes them. Moreover, there are also reports that it is trying to win the contract by giving a subcontract to an influential Indian industrialist. In addition, its performance in terms of fuel consumption etc was much higher and unimpressive during the recent Libyan campaign.
> 
> *So what should be done about the Rafale deal?*
> 
> I had written to the UPA defence minister A.K. Antony citing reports and the information on the Sonia Gandhi family’s link with Carla Bruni. Being an honorable man sensitive about his image and reputation, Antony had frozen negotiations with Rafale. I am not sure why Arun Jaitley decided to defreeze it.
> 
> *The BJP’s in power. Will you ask for Rafale deal to be scrapped?*
> 
> *We have a party meeting coming up in a few days. I will raise the issue not only with defence minister Jaitley but also with PM Narendra Modi. I’ll definitely bring it to their notice*._



“The Rafale Deal Should Be Scrapped And Renegotiated” | Pranay Sharma


That guy remains to be a nutjob, but it will be interesting if that actually get to be a topic.


----------



## kaykay

sancho said:


> “The Rafale Deal Should Be Scrapped And Renegotiated” | Pranay Sharma
> 
> 
> That guy remains to be a nutjob, but it will be interesting if that actually get to be a topic.


Swamy states like that when he turns on his 'moronic mode'.


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## sancho

kaykay said:


> Swamy states like that when he turns on his 'moronic mode'.



Which is most of the time, at least from what I have seen from him.


----------



## DrSomnath999

sancho said:


> They did, as* they uses the same Israeli EW pod that IAF used on the Mig 21s or 27s*. We further modified the internal EW at the MKIs from the Ks, the EW pod however remains the same till today and that will most likely change only by the next upgrade, when the MKI is likely to get the wingtip EW pods. But once again you only try to distract from your earlier claims, which *was why would the Mig 21 / LCA be used in escorts* when you have more capable Su 30s, or Mig 29s with better BVR capability or IRST and I proved you that IAF is exactly doing that and* why, so you can keep posting unrelated stuff as much as you want, but you can't run away from the reality.*



Dear sancho

Mig 21 in those exercises were nt using those EW pods they had their in bulit *Tempest EW suite* so it does nt matter they were using PODS or not as it was as effective as those pods .

Plus that is also not clear that Su 30k were using those pods becoz the article which i had posted earliear didnt mention anything about them

*Your reality on POV= fantasy in real combat * 

becoz
your so called low observable LCA /MIg 21 with those EFTS & without having a proper EW suite in escort looks good in your own land against a mediocre / handicapped adversary but not in foreign land
with a hitech adversary equipped with AWACS/ Aerostats /SAM radar/ plus 4.5 gen fighter with aesa/IRST /BVR capabilty .

You have swallowed upon those exercise in 2004 as a standard for IAF in future combat also

but i like to point out that those exercises were done in india only where you can field more MIG 21/LCA as compare to their fighters to overwhelm them plus that too against a mediocre adversary with no awacs backing at all .

That advantage wont happen in foreign land with AWACS/ Aerostats /SAM radar/ plus 4.5 gen fighter with aesa/IRST /BVR capabilty .until & unless you have a proper EW suite either internal/external or electronic attack capabilty from rafale in foreign mission With advent of it's RBE 2 aesa radar + Spectra .









.







sancho said:


> LOL another cheap try to distract from the fact that* IAF doesn't have dedicated EA fighters*, so it doesn't matter who the opponent was, since if you have that capability you use it for the protection of your own fighters and not based on the capability of the opponent. That's why the US are using Growlers and Prowlers in every war, be it Iraq, Kosovo or Libya.





you can keep on LOLLING all you want & accuse me of distracting from the fact, But the fact is we dont have the requirements of EA fighters at those previous wars so we dont need them at that time,

we cant get a growler/prowler like the US becoz they had built them keeping soviet union as their primary threat in mind as they had formidabble air defences SAM plus flankers , so for that they require them to do their specilaised SEAD mission to make inroads for non stealthy fighters/bombers

Their doctrine from the very beginning were offensive so they need them .But not for us at that time .

But now we need them
as now our enemies are getting hitech with equivalent net centric warfare capabilty with improved detection & counter defensive capabilty through adavnced SAM , awacs , aerostat plus high capable fighters

& not only in that for doctrine also changed like IAF"S Surgical strike plus CSD .& as usual with nuclear retaliatory strike mission

So that is the reason we are investing a lot on high EW capable plus with improved self protection suite planes like rafale also upgrading MIrage 2000 / multirole Su 30mki with their EW suites to meet future threat scenarios till our 5th gen fighters comes in & around 2020






















sancho said:


> *Due to the AASM weapon system! *The Rafale and the EF were able to detect Libian air defences with their advances EW sensors, but only the Rafale was able to attack them, because they had a suitable stand off weapon, while the EF didn't!


*An Epic nonsense*







so your POV is rafale' *" AASM is the only factor "*& spectra EW suite had no role in it's low obseravilty during those sead mission in libya

& for simply nothing they had comfortably undertaken SEAD mission without taking any support of EA aircraft like growlers in LIBYA .

Amazing !!

*6)JAMMING THE ENEMY:*












sancho said:


> Not really, because all we need to know is, how the IAF uses fighters and how they use tactics! And when they replace older fighters with newer once, while remaining with the same tactics, they only implement the fighter.* LCA is even designed and developed with the advantages and roles of the Mig 21 in mind (air policing, ESCORTS, CAS, low RCS, BVR and precision strike capability, data linked with AWACS or other fighters of IAF..., just a generation ahead of what the Bison offered back then), so it doesn't matter how the Eurocanards do it in NATO conflicts, since every country / force has it's own way and own tactics.*


i had pointed out this fact 100 times from your prevoius posts & i am repeating that again


*"the fact is you are always thinking on one sided point of view , meanwhile ignoring the enemy's capabilty that is your biggest problem"*

the adversary have also upgraded their fighters . They have also similiar or even in some cases better BVR capable fighters than LCA MARK1 & much improved detection capabilty

plus no matter how much you beat the drum about LCA ' low observabilty any 4th fighter with 3 EFTS would have
a higher rcs than a cruise missile also no matter how low you fly .Even cruise missile can also be detected so why some one beleiveing LCA would escape detection from against an enemy with AWACS/AEROSTAT /SAM radar coverage plainly on low observabilty basis

plus you are ignoring that in a foreign land you never know what no of aerial threat would emerge & one cannot guarantee 100 % KP of it's BVRAAM against latest planes with improved MAWS & self protection suite

so having as much no of BVRAAMS is a safe bet for any CAS fighters

{IMO}
if LCA doesnt take the help of advanced EW suite either internal/external
LCA 's role in air escort in foreign land would be practical only if employed in high number with strike package to saturate enemy air fighters & air defences by diverting them from strike package .but that would be applicable in PAK scenario only at the moment

*but probabilty of high number of casualty of LCA cannot be discarded also*













sancho said:


> And another distraction! I never said the M2K was passive, that wasn't even the point, but the fact that the less capable fighter *(M2K with limit missile and sensor performance) was used for the escort role,* contrary to your believe that the more capable fighters are always used. It's hilarous how often and how bad you try to distract from your wrong claims, by going off topic to something completely different.


and the fact is you still post wrong info even if it is passive or not
that Mirage 2k provided air escort to mirage 2k which is totally wrong as it aint as MIG 29 provided air escort in kargil war


*& when people do point out that . You inorder to save your face try to degrade their post with these terrible 
accusations of Distractions /diversionary tactics to them*

great!!


*CHEERS*

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## Abingdonboy

Anyone else notice that whislt the Rafale has taken part in Libya, Iraq/ISIS And Afghan air strikes the RAF has on each occasion elected to chose the Tornado over the Eurofighter Typhoon? And back in 2011 it was said the EFT's A2G capabilities hadn't been developed enough and 3 years later nothing has changed? 

I'm sorry but this DOES say a lot about the two birds and further vindicates the IAF's selection.


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## Storm Force

I have no doubt that rafale is the best fourth gen fighter in the world in s multi format.

Best choice we can make.

Get it signed now


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## halloweene

Major fault in Eurofighter manufacturing?

Germany: Eurofighter Has Manufacturing Fault | Defense News | defensenews.com

Reactions: Like Like:
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## DrSomnath999

halloweene said:


> Major fault in Eurofighter manufacturing?
> 
> Germany: Eurofighter Has Manufacturing Fault | Defense News | defensenews.com



On top of it they are baiting us to buy this plane for huge discounted price 

meanwhile they are cancelling their own orders

thank god we have not selected typhoon



*CHEERS*


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## The Unnamed

nobody uses rafale ! it's perrfect for us. i hope nobody buys it anymore. a 100 rafales can protect indian airspace for the next 10-15 years without breaking a sweat. even in a war as far as china is not "fully" into it.

i love how this bird looks..very very beautiful bird.

we need some HD shots of rafales in 2014 aero show in blore. as in full frame and 2.8s with proper polarisers and stuff. good ones.


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## sancho

DrSomnath999 said:


> so your POV is rafale' *" AASM is the only factor "*& spectra EW suite had no role in it's low obseravilty during those sead mission in libya



...another typical example that shows how you jump around with your claims! You asked how Rafale did SEAD and which system was the key to do that mission and when the answer turned out to be different from what you expected, you jump to another issue (low obseravilty during the mission), which has nothing to do with your initial question.
But to answer this question too, no low observability had no role in that mission, because the stand off range of AASM was enough to remain in safe distance to the air defences, that's why the attack reportedly was done from high altitudes, to gain maximum stand off range for the weapon and not from low altitude to be less observable. Please read up the following and understand the importance of AASM here:

Rafale News: Libya, AASM sead capability demonstrated (2)

The EW sensors and jammers were useful to detect and avoid air defences in any missions, just as DASS did it for the EF, but the key to do the SEAD attack mission was the AASM!



DrSomnath999 said:


> *and the fact is you still post wrong info* even if it is passive or not *that Mirage 2k provided air escort to mirage 2k which is totally wrong as it aint *as MIG 29 provided air escort in kargil war









Source: vayu aerospace report "The Mirage 2000+LGB= Victory"


Another of your desperate claims busted, but you surely will find a way to distract from this mistake too.


----------



## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> Anyone else notice that whislt the Rafale has taken part in Libya, Iraq/ISIS And Afghan air strikes the RAF has on each occasion elected to chose the Tornado over the Eurofighter Typhoon? And back in 2011 it was said the EFT's A2G capabilities hadn't been developed enough and 3 years later nothing has changed?
> 
> I'm sorry but this DOES say a lot about the two birds and further vindicates the IAF's selection.



Hehe, all it says is, that if you have a dedicated strike aircraft, that is cheaper to operate and suitable enough for this basic task of dropping LGBs, you use that, rather than your most capable fighters. Rafale on the other side is used, because it can carry twice the LGB load than a Mirage 2000 and today even at similar operational costs. If IAF would be included in the strikes, they wouldn't use MKIs either, but Jags or even LCA MK1 (if smaller LGBs would be integrated yet), so it's more about operational benefits of the force, rather than of the fighter.




halloweene said:


> Major fault in Eurofighter manufacturing?



Nothing major:

Google translated:


> *Mystery of faulty holes in the Euro Fighter*
> 
> For over ten years the Euro Fighter is produced in series. Good 410 copies of the fighter jets have been delivered since then. But now shaken a quality problem, the industry consortium of four European countries. The British company BAE Systems only now found a manufacturing defect in numerous holes on the rear fuselage of the jet. *The holes were "insufficient deburred", ie not treated the well properly*. Affected are all previously delivered as contained in the production aircraft of all Euro-Fighter Nations, according to a letter from Defence Secretary Mark Gruebel, the present of the "world"...*The error was not discovered by the customers, but obviously by the manufacturer*...


Google Übersetzer


No operational issue or so, but a minor quality issue of BAEs production line as it seems, since the holes are correct but not propperly treated.


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## sancho

This also explains why the RAF prefers the Tornado in Iraq:



> *Brimstone: British missile envied by the US for war on Isil*
> 
> America was keen for Britain to join air strikes against Isil because of its unique Brimstone missile, according to Whitehall sources
> 
> When the United States asked the RAF to join air strikes against the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (Isil), Pentagon commanders had one particular weapon they wanted the British to bring.
> 
> American defence chiefs had already seen the formidable Brimstone missile at work in Libya during the 2011 campaign against Col Muammar Gaddafi’s regime and wanted to use it against Isil, according to Whitehall sources.
> 
> The unique British-made missile is now the most sophisticated of its kind being used in the air campaign to support Iraqi and Kurdish forces battling the militants.
> 
> "Two Tornado GR4s from RAF Akrotiri, conducted an armed reconnaissance mission in support of Iraqi government forces west of Baghdad.
> 
> "They were tasked to examine a location suspected of being used as an Isil command and control position. At the scene they were able to identify Isil activity and two vehicles, one of which was an armed pick up truck.
> 
> "*Four Brimstone missiles were used to conduct a precision attack on the vehicles*. Initial analysis indicates that the strikes were successful..."



Brimstone: British missile envied by the US for war on Isil - Telegraph

Brimstone is not integrated in EF yet, but this crisis might further speed up the integration now.


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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> Brimstone is not integrated in EF yet, but this crisis might further speed up the integration now.


Doubtful sir. There have been no indications the UK govt or any other partner nation is willing to do anything of the sort in fact the Germans seems to be looking for any opportunity to bail.


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## jha

Wow... Just look at this beauty.... Wonderful...

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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> Doubtful sir. There have been no indications the UK govt or any other partner nation is willing to do anything of the sort in fact the Germans seems to be looking for any opportunity to bail.



Have you forgot this?:

Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions | Page 638


The plan was to integrate Brimstone 2 till 2018, although the studies also evaluate the modification of the missile to use it on the SPEAR 3 quad launchers. It's logical to use the same launcher for Brimstone and SPEAR 3, so the quad launcher could had been a reason to delay things till 2018, but now IS might force a faster integration of the missile with the normal triple launcher that Dassault wanted for Rafale too. 
Btw, Germany is not important wrt EF upgrades, they won't even play any important role in NATO conflicts, unless Europe or the US are under attack. UK is the driver for EF upgrades and their plans for 2018 -2020 are very good. The funny thing is, the more the F35 is delayed and the more cost issues it has, the more likely the UK will spend on EF upgrades again.


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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> Have you forgot this?:
> 
> Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions | Page 638
> 
> 
> The plan was to integrate Brimstone 2 till 2018, although the studies also evaluate the modification of the missile to use it on the SPEAR 3 quad launchers. It's logical to use the same launcher for Brimstone and SPEAR 3, so the quad launcher could had been a reason to delay things till 2018, but now IS might force a faster integration of the missile with the normal triple launcher that Dassault wanted for Rafale too.
> Btw, Germany is not important wrt EF upgrades, they won't even play any important role in NATO conflicts, unless Europe or the US are under attack. UK is the driver for EF upgrades and their plans for 2018 -2020 are very good. The funny thing is, the more the F35 is delayed and the more cost issues it has, the more likely the UK will spend on EF upgrades again.


Sir, I was stating my opinion that it is highly unlikely integration will be sped up NOT that integration will take place (at some point).

I think as far as the RAF and future upgrades go, one has to hold back enthusiasm until the 2015 SDSR as this could either kill or fast track said upgrades. 

Anyway, all this hoopla further vindicates the IAF's decision on the Rafale......


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## jha

Impending MMRCA Waste | idrw.org


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## The Unnamed

jha said:


> Impending MMRCA Waste | idrw.org





jha said:


> Impending MMRCA Waste | idrw.org



Jha ji, do u know how the leading gulf countries acquire latest tech in large numbers of minimum 30-40 fighters ?

this deal will pull back on money if we make just 26 planes...perfect to learn all that you wanna know if u r capable.

i wish Modi ji would buy 100 off france in a course of 5 years with penalties for delay clause in the contract..then this deal will come down by atleast...atlleast 25% with hard bargaining.


----------



## Taygibay

Bold excerpts from the above IDRW document :
*
Dassault* is not owner of the tech in the GaN sensors ( not exactly chips themselves ) but Thales is so that it should have read : Rafale International not Dassault, the kind of subtleties I long debated here with someone. And even then the maker, United Monolithic Semi-conductors / UMS is a joint venture of Thales and EADS, the company that sells the ... Typhoon!

https://www.thalesgroup.com/sites/default/files/asset/document/p10-13_criticalmaterial_final.pdf



*Eurofighter has come back into the reckoning* to open the second paragraph is laughable

Rafale fighter jet deal contract with France almost ready: Defence ministry | Latest News & Updates at Daily News & Analysis

..:: India Strategic ::. IAF: IAF Prioritising Acquisition and Modernisation

_I guess the thinkers in that tank know more than _Air Chief Marshal Raha, who is also Chairman of the Chiefs of Staff Committee (CCoSC) and accordingly who coordinates modernisation of the armed forces with the Chiefs of Staff of Navy and Army ???



“*Take the case of the AESA ... radar enabling combat planes to shift between ground attack and air-to-air interception roles.*” Someone who makes that mistake is not qualified to talk about modern fighters. A PESA does exactly what that sentence describes. The AESA does it faster and can be divide into lobes that actually do both at once within assigned sectors with ECM thrown in.



I’ll pass under silence his assessment of the Typhoon strewn with exaggerations, poor fat lass  except where he says “*Further, the Eurofighter, like the Rafale, has found no buyers because it represents obsolete technology.*” LOL ROFL ETC What??? Not only was the Typhoon sold to Austria and Saudi Arabia but the Oman procurement is still alive! And if the Typhie is obsolete tech, the IAF should junk all planes below the SU_MKI right now!!! The only thing more recent is not functional yet for Pete’s sake!



The rest is argumentative so I won’t comment but being based on so many untruths, it is hard to see how an honest result could come out of it. 



Pitiful.

Good day all, Tay.

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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> I think as far as the RAF and future upgrades go, one has to hold back enthusiasm until the 2015 SDSR as this could either kill or fast track said upgrades.



Why should they kill upgrades for the EF, that already are going on? Not going to happen, Meteor, Storm Shadow and Brimstone 2 will come whatsover, what's open is AESA, CFTS and SPEAR 3, but even the early upgrade will be a credible push for the EF and by 2019 it could be even ahead of Rafale.



jha said:


> Impending MMRCA Waste | idrw.org



As if idrw alone is not enough reason to not read the article, but when I saw that they quoted Bharat Karnad, I stopped directly. One unreliable source, quoting a man who continuously proves that he is biased and has no idea what he is talking about.

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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> Sir, I was stating my opinion that it is highly unlikely integration will be sped up





> ...Typhoon can carry Paveways, but the contract for integration of Storm Shadow on the platform was only signed mid-year. Meanwhile, BAE Systems is working to complete a £5 million (US$8 million) initial evaluation of the integration of Brimstone 2 on Typhoon. *In June, BAE said the initial study should be done next month, and completion of its integration on Typhoon by 2018*.
> 
> *The MoD source said there had been some talk in the ministry recently about speeding up that process.*
> 
> *A BAE spokeswoman said the next step after completion of the study would be the “presentation to the customer and hopefully agreement on a way forward. The timescale is subject to those discussions*.”...



To Boost Strike Force, UK Delays Retiring Jets | C4ISR & Networks | c4isrnet.com

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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> To Boost Strike Force, UK Delays Retiring Jets | C4ISR & Networks | c4isrnet.com


I stand corrected sir. 



sancho said:


> Why should they kill upgrades for the EF, that already are going on?


Sounds illogical right? But welcome to the logic of UK politicians. They killed the Nimrod MRA4 program after having invested more than $2BN into the project and just a few weeks before it was set to enter service. I don't think anything can be ruled out at this point especially not considering elections are coming up and the current government is all about making huge cuts to public expenditure (including defence).




sancho said:


> the EF and by 2019 it could be even ahead of Rafale.


In some areas perhaps but then the Rafale project won't be stationary either.



Taygibay said:


> Bold excerpts from the above IDRW document :
> *Dassault* is not owner of the tech in the GaN sensors ( not exactly chips themselves ) but Thales is so that it should have read : Rafale International not Dassault, the kind of subtleties I long debated here with someone. And even then the maker, United Monolithic Semi-conductors / UMS is a joint venture of Thales and EADS, the company that sells the ... Typhoon!
> 
> https://www.thalesgroup.com/sites/default/files/asset/document/p10-13_criticalmaterial_final.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> *Eurofighter has come back into the reckoning* to open the second paragraph is laughable
> 
> Rafale fighter jet deal contract with France almost ready: Defence ministry | Latest News & Updates at Daily News & Analysis
> 
> ..:: India Strategic ::. IAF: IAF Prioritising Acquisition and Modernisation
> 
> _I guess the thinkers in that tank know more than _Air Chief Marshal Raha, who is also Chairman of the Chiefs of Staff Committee (CCoSC) and accordingly who coordinates modernisation of the armed forces with the Chiefs of Staff of Navy and Army ???
> 
> 
> 
> “*Take the case of the AESA ... radar enabling combat planes to shift between ground attack and air-to-air interception roles.*” Someone who makes that mistake is not qualified to talk about modern fighters. A PESA does exactly what that sentence describes. The AESA does it faster and can be divide into lobes that actually do both at once within assigned sectors with ECM thrown in.
> 
> 
> 
> I’ll pass under silence his assessment of the Typhoon strewn with exaggerations, poor fat lass  except where he says “*Further, the Eurofighter, like the Rafale, has found no buyers because it represents obsolete technology.*” LOL ROFL ETC What??? Not only was the Typhoon sold to Austria and Saudi Arabia but the Oman procurement is still alive! And if the Typhie is obsolete tech, the IAF should junk all planes below the SU_MKI right now!!! The only thing more recent is not functional yet for Pete’s sake!
> 
> 
> 
> The rest is argumentative so I won’t comment but being based on so many untruths, it is hard to see how an honest result could come out of it.
> 
> 
> 
> Pitiful.
> 
> Good day all, Tay.


IDRW are bought out and spout whatever nonsense their backers instruct them to there really was no need to dissect such drivel but nice of you to do so anyway!

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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> Sounds illogical right? But welcome to the logic of UK politicians. They killed the Nimrod MRA4 program after having invested more than $2BN into the project and just a few weeks before it was set to enter service.



But that was necessary to reduce the defence budget, the recent EF upgrades however were cleared after that and are cheaper compared to the MPA cost in the mid and long run, let alone far more important. 



Abingdonboy said:


> In some areas perhaps but then the Rafale project won't be stationary either.



But Rafales upgrades are not that big anymore, the F3R is not changing that much and is mainly NATO specific, which leaves the MLU around 2025 to be a real big change. The EF on the other side, is getting credible changes now to catch up with the Rafale, while the EF upgrades around 2019 (especially those of the UK), can make the EF far superior and that's a crucial point now, that the initial RPF timeline can't be met anymore and that we have to look at the capabilities that will be available in 2018/19 now and not in 15/16 as it was planned.


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## sancho

The difference of Rafale and EF coming upgrades:

*Rafale F3R by 2018*









Main changes: additional radar modes, upgraded software and com links, upgraded EW capabilities, new targeting pod, METEOR missile, possibly 2 additional hardpoints for MICA and upgraded MICA and AASM versions

Result => Main improvement in active BVR attacks and laser guided strikes, while the rest are improvements of existing capabilities. No low collateral damage, cost effective weapon or increased range weapon added, to improve CAS or SEAD and still no IRST, HMS or AASM 1000.


*EF T3A by 2018*









Main changes: upgraded software and com links, upgraded EW capabilities, Paveway 4 LGBs and METEOR missile (both available before 2018), Storm Shadow cruise missiles, Brimstone ATGMs

Result => Main improvements in active BVR attacks, CAS and cruise missile strike capability, which makes it much more multi role capable. Superior to Rafale in CAS, inferior long range cruise missile strikes. Still lacks AESA radar.


Potential later upgrades

*EF T3A by 2019/20*









Main changes: Swashplate AESA radar, possibly even with Electronic Attack capability and GaN modules, upgraded EW capabilites, CFTs, SPEAR 3 stand off missile

Result => Main improvement state of the art radar, state of the art EW and EA capabilities, free hardpoints and extend range / endurance of operations due to CFTs, stand of precision strike capability for improved SEAD and CAS.


*Rafale MLU between 2025 and 30*





Main changes: GaN modules for radar, possible conformal arrays, CFTs, weapon pods, upgraded engine, upgraded FSO

Result => Main improvements in RCS reduction, active BVR attacks and general detection



Feel free to add things that I missed, but it shows that the EF is getting a stronger upgrade push in the short to mid term (especially upgrades that would make a difference for India), while the next big upgrade for the Rafale will be the MLU a decade away, which can be a game changer again.

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## Taygibay

Yeah well, meanwhile, there are 9 Rafales over Iraq and 8 Tornados! The reason for which is :
"Air Commodore Andrew Lambert, a former air defence chief who commanded forces in Iraq, said : …
The Typhoons don’t have the capabilities to carry out the same role. To suggest they do is pie-in-the-sky."
RAF Tornado squadron in ISIS airstrikes was due to be disbanded | Daily Mail Online






Armée française - opérations militaires... - Armée française - opérations militaires OPEX (page officielle) | Facebook

Considering that the French government wants at least a year without planes ASAP to save money, If the MMRCA was signed before Christmas, the first Indian AC could be out of Mérignac before the end of 2015. Functional and all with only passage at HAL a couple years later to install the specific Indian components. Just saying'

And thnx Abingdon mate and Sancho about IDRW, I know, but once in a while you have to debunk such articles less the newcomers take them at face value. 

Good day all, Tay.


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## DrSomnath999

sancho said:


> ...another typical example that shows how you jump around with your claims! You asked *how Rafale did SEAD and which system was the key to do that mission* and when the answer turned out to be different from what you expected, you jump to another issue *(low obseravilty during the mission),* which has nothing to do with your initial question.



Dear Sancho

time & again you have mentioned only *those part of my POST meanwhile ignoring the other part which is attached to that part of my post *to support your POV

if you plz correlate your earliear post & my post before yours

what i have asked earliear ??
which system was the key to do SEAD mission in LIBYA ??
The answer from your side was "*AASM hammer was the only reason of it*

BTW is this a System ?? are you making a fool of me or what .This is "weapon" not a system but you mentioned it as weapon system as a whole .Which i found to be really nonsense which is indeed not the answer which i have expected from you & as i expected ,it would have said SPECTRA system from your side but you aint




meanwhile my reply was" did *SPECTRA* system had nothing to do with it's" LOW OBSERVABILTY " which i was referring to it's
electronic jamming & situational awareness of all SAM threats .

but instead you portraying only "*LOW obseravibilty* part from my post in your replies which is wrong & totally a different thing as No way Rafale is low obseravble with those 3EFTS & Hammer missile complex .

And ironically
even *SA-3 in kosovo war did manage to shot down F117 *which was the only stealth fighter kill recorded in history , the very old sam which rafale did SEAD mission in LIBYA, so one can imagine rafale's fate if it simply rely on low observabilty to do it' SEAD mission.





Kosovo and the Continuing SEAD Challenge

infact if EA- prowler jamming capabilty had been used in an appropiate way it wouldnt have been shot down by SA-3 also








sancho said:


> .
> But to answer this question too, *no low observability had no role in that mission, because the stand off range of AASM was enough to remain in safe distance to the air defences,* that's why the attack reportedly was done from high altitudes, to gain maximum stand off range for the weapon and not from low altitude to be less observable. Please read up the following and understand the importance of AASM here:
> 
> Rafale News: Libya, AASM sead capability demonstrated (2)
> 
> The EW sensors and jammers were useful to detect and avoid air defences in any missions, just as DASS did it for the EF, but the key to do the SEAD attack mission was the AASM!


I am not saying AASM had no role in SEAD mission in lIBYA

as it's true AASM weapon was an important factor in SEAD mission & all those SA-3 & SA-6 sam missile ranges were in lesser range than hammer missile itself which was around 50km

but this is not true that SPECTRA EW suite jamming capabilty's role in rafale LOW obseravbilty had no importance during those sead mission

as SA-3 & SA-6 SAM radars were greater than 50 km range in detection even if their missiles were in range of 35-25 kms . that means they should have used RAFALE 's spectra system jamming to hide their radar signatures or else they should have alerted Libyan air force's MAN PADS (SHOULDER FIRED IR GUIDED MISSILES) to be active which they couldnt .



PLUS 1 more thing i like to say all launch were not made in high altitude at all .some were launched at low altitude also so that means they would have entered a little closer in range of their SAM missiles





so that means Rafale's Spectra 's capabilty made rafale help to evade SAM detection & to carry out SEAD missions accurately


So to say SPECTRA 's role in rafale's LOW obseravbilty had no role in those missions *is indirectly saying 
french are just making marketing B.S about Spectra role in LIBYAN sead Mission*



sancho said:


> View attachment 104598
> 
> 
> Source: vayu aerospace report "The Mirage 2000+LGB= Victory"
> 
> 
> Another of your desperate claims busted,* but you surely will find a way to distract from this mistake too.*



*PLZ shoot the message not the poor messanger like myself*

it's not my personal claim but various sources are claiming this that MIG 29 did provided escort to MIrage 2K in kargil war

The source which you have posted is a copy paste info from B.R .com articles i cant post the link as it is banned here .





*Mirage 2k from 7th squadron did majority work of bombing only & that was major role of Mirage 2k in kargil war

But the fact is Mirage from 1st squadron only provided name sake escort as real functional escort was done by MIG 29 plus not only that it did locked on F16 during kargil war *




http://1stfighterwing.com/IQT09212012/GT 1.1 v4.pdf

plus there are dozen of sources which claim MIG 29 did provided escort to MIRAGE2k

Russia Travel, Travel to Russia, Russia Hotels, Russia Tourism and Travel Information, Russia
Mikoyan-Gurevich Fulcrum Mig 29 - Top secret airplanesTop secret airplanes
Aviation: Mikoyan MiG-29 "Fulcrum"

But the best source is this




This source is the ultimate source of kargil war
http://carnegieendowment.org/files/kargil.pdf


Not only that MIg 29 did provided escort to canberra which were doing recce missions over Kargil




Kargil - Daily Progress Of Op Safedsagar - Vayu Sena

The main topic of discussion was according to you low obseravable planes were used in escorts which did nt happen with MIg 21 in kargil war

*The fact is why Mirage 2k was used in escorts to Mirage 2k as they did have proper EW suite & self protection suite *low obseravibilty is not enough






Indian Air Force in Kargil Operations

*So dear sancho
I think this is time that this unneccessary argument on petty & offtopic issue should end for good of this thread

If you have anything related to rafale then plz discuss with me in this thread or else start a new thread on this issue i would post my opinion there not here*

*CHEERS*

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## DrSomnath999

*Things India & France needs to codevelop keeping Rafale in mind*





1) New low cost & low size PGM like Spear3 with range of 140/150km for future SEAD missions / Anti armour missions







2) DIRCM for fighter size aeroplanes like Rafale/even indian FFGA with THALES












3) integrated avionics /working structure for joint functioning of INDIAN AURA UCAVS / french Neuron in rafale planes through it's cockpit in post 2020

















Many more things are also there like HMD/ enclosed weapon pods /CFT/Conformal arrays

but these things which i meantioned would give rafale an edge in future combat for both the countries







BTW "why cant france share GaN tech with india" india should insist france to share that tech with us









*CHEERS *


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## sancho

DrSomnath999 said:


> .Which i found to be really nonsense which is indeed not the answer which i have expected from you & as i expected ,it would have said SPECTRA system from your side but you aint



See now you finally come out with the truth, but as I already told you, just because it's not the way *you want it*, doesn't make my statement wrong. Infact I explained you how it it was done and why the EF couldn't do the same mission, althout it had the same detection capability. I gave you credible sources to understand what's important and you still can't take it, keep distracting with F117 and Kosovo, posting unrelated pics again to distract, which have nothing to do with Libya the Rafale or EF. So no matter if you like it or not, THE FACT REMAINS, that the weapon system was the key to do or not do the mission!



DrSomnath999 said:


> PLZ shoot the message not the poor messanger like myself



I am not shooting the message, *but you cheap claim that I provide wrong info*, which totally went against you and now you trying get around it again as expected.  And even if the article was very detailed, not only explaining the missions, how many and which fighters were used, from which squadron, how many sorties they did in which missions, you still still are in denial. And no it's not a copy of BR (not that it would make things less true), but based on the same infos and is even quoting IAF officers which took part in the missions, but when you are in denial it doesn't matter anyway right?



DrSomnath999 said:


> I think this is time that this unneccessary argument on petty & offtopic issue should end for good of this thread...or else start a new thread on this issue i would post my opinion there not here



May I remind you that I was the one that suggested to move the discussion to a PM conversation long ago, because you kept on with your distractions and claims to off topic areas and that I wanted to keep you away from exposing yourself more with false claims? But who rejected that and kept going on?



DrSomnath999 said:


> P.S A sincere request to you stop PM ing me & *i would be rather embarassing myself indeed*



So making a U-Turn now and asking for a seperate discussion is rather strange, but a propper discussion is evidently not what you want anyway.


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## jha

Go Rafale Go..

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## sancho

Taygibay said:


> Yeah well, meanwhile, there are 9 Rafales over Iraq and 8 Tornados! The reason for which is :
> "Air Commodore Andrew Lambert, a former air defence chief who commanded forces in Iraq, said : …
> The Typhoons don’t have the capabilities to carry out the same role.



And since the Rafale lacks these capabilities too (Brimstone missile), the French Air Force would also use Tornados with that missiles over Rafales now if they had both fighters. 

Dropping 250Kg LGBs can be done by Tornado, Rafale and EF
Launching Brimstone missiles can be done by Tornado only!



Taygibay said:


> Considering that the French government wants at least a year without planes ASAP to save money, If the MMRCA was signed before Christmas, the first Indian AC could be out of Mérignac before the end of 2015.



We already know that the production of Rafale F3+ for French forces will go on till early 2016 with 4 out of 11 Rafales being delivered to them, while the rest and the whole lot of 2017 being reserved for export customers, be it Qatar or India. So 2016 is the earliest possible date for India anyway, but if Qatar orders them before us, French forces have to divert their fighters, to provide India the 2016/17 lot. But then again, we know that IAF requires credible changes and the longer the final selection of Rafale takes in India, the longer it will take to implement them, which might put the delivery further back.


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## Taygibay

The Brimstone is a unique little piece of kit and I'd be glad to see it on a Rafale but for now, the tool is the AASM 125.
Dernier tir de qualification réussi d'un AASM laser - Zone Militaire
which can do moving pick-ups pretty well.
As for the 2015 Rafales for France, I repeat that the government is quite ready to delay the sourcing to ADA & Aéronavale to save cash for other things like refueling MRTTs and the likes. Ask Halloweene next time he comes by, he had access to the same source I did.
Knowing Dassault's reactiveness, if MMRCA signed before Christmas, first Indian Rafale in 2015.

Good day all, Tay.


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## sancho

Taygibay said:


> The Brimstone is a unique little piece of kit and I'd be glad to see it on a Rafale but for now, the tool is the AASM 125.



Not the AASM 125, but the new laser seeker which is already qualified in the 250 version. However both versions are too heavy for such kind of low collateral damage CAS, which is why even the French forces wanted Brimstone. So AASM is not an answer to the lack of that capability.



Taygibay said:


> I repeat that the government is quite ready to delay the sourcing to ADA & Aéronavale



Which is meaningless, since the Rafales are build according to the requirements of the French forces and they don't fit to IAFs! That's why I said, they will only fit to Qatars if they would be diverted, but not to India. 

2015 - 11 x for France (including naval versions) 
2016 - 4 x for France (I guess including naval versions too) / 7 x for exports
2017 - 11 x for exports

Not sure how many of them would be naval version, but we talk about a total of around 30 fighters only, so even if some of the French fighters could be diverted to Qatar by 2015/16, the export production in 2016/17 would be shared between Qatar and India, which further delays induction of a full squad for IAF. So IAF is dependent on Qatar not getting their deal done before the MMRCA is fixed, otherwise they must wait even longer.


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## Taygibay

*^^^*
As usual, saying anything without reading just for the sake of answering!

Well, I'll leave you at it … but I am still glad that both my Air Force ( even with delivery delay )
and Dassault do not live in the alternate reality you provide to fit your shifting views.

Good month, Tay.


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## 帅的一匹

Will IAF go for Rafale or not? J10b is flying all over the sky, where is the expected rival?


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## sancho

Taygibay said:


> *^^^*
> As usual, saying anything without reading just for the sake of answering!



LOL, which part didn't I read? I simply take official statements as more reliable than what people on a forum says based, which I told you that before. And the official point remains that, IAF has asked for different capabilities than the French forces and that the fighters can be delivered around 3 years after the contract is signed:



> *18.06.2013 - French Defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian*, said he is hoping France could make its first deliveries of the Rafale fighter aircraft to India between 2016 -2017.



Rafale Deliveries Could Begin in 2016-2017 | Defense Update:




> *28.05.2014*...How about Qatar might choose a standard near the French Rafale. It is also very possible that France combines Qatar development of the unit as part of a larger and very close cooperation between the two countries...
> 
> ...*CEO of Dassault Aviation, Eric Trappier* had estimated that the first Rafale could be delivered to India three years after the signing of the contract...



Le Rafale de Dassault sur la piste d'envol au Qatar ?




> *18.08.2014*...The 18 direct fly away aircraft are expected to be delivered in three to four years from the signing of the contract. The remaining 108 license manufactured aircraft in India are expected to be delivered during the following seven years.
> 
> *This information was given by Defence Minister Shri Arun Jaitley* in a written reply to Shri Ram Charitra and Shri Y.V. Subba Reddy in Lok Sabha today.



Print Release


This and the fact that the Rafale production line has it's limits, makes deliveries to export countries, not that easy as it seems, at least if the versions are different from what the French Forces wants.


----------



## DrSomnath999

sancho said:


> See now you finally come out with the truth, but as I already told you, just because it's not the way *you want it*, *doesn't make my statement wrong*. Infact I explained you how it it was done and why the EF couldn't do the same mission, althout it had the same detection capability. I gave you credible sources to understand what's important and you still can't take it, keep distracting with F117 and Kosovo, posting unrelated pics again to distract, which have nothing to do with Libya the Rafale or EF. So no matter if you like it or not, THE FACT REMAINS, that the weapon system was the key to do or not do the mission!



GEEZ!!

truth about what ??? truth about why i found absurd your useless logic of equating a" weapon "with a "system" in your replies HuH!! plus you constantly twist someone's post to suit your POV like LOW obseravbilty meanwhile ignoring the
reason of rafale 's low observabilty due to which system which i have claimed
&that is the reason why i posted F117 & Kosovo thing which you have found as usual diversionary tactics

& not only that on top of it you portray people in the wrong way also like this below

*as When did i say your statement is wrong about AASM* but wrong is your useless POV that Spectra 's role in Low observabilty had no role in Libyan war in SEAD missions .That is another B.S you have posted in that reply which i have explained you & everyone why is it important ??




Rafale News: May 2011


meaninglessly you unneccessarily dragging Typhoon into the picture meanwhile ignoring the level of heaven & hell difference of EW capabilty & passive detection capabilty between SPECTRA & DASS .clearly depicted in all leaked reports.PLus Weapon cueing ability of PGM like hammer through spectra thanks to inferometric antennae in it's RWR none in DASS




If that the case then french would have used MIRAGE 2000D instead in libya which can also fire AASM hammer
















sancho said:


> I am not shooting the message, *but you cheap claim that I provide wrong info*, which totally went against you and now you trying get around it again as expected.  And even if the article was very detailed, not only explaining the missions, how many and which fighters were used, from which squadron, how many sorties they did in which missions, you still still are in denial. And no it's not a *copy of BR (not that it would make things less true),* but based on the same infos and is even quoting IAF officers which took part in the missions, but when you are in denial it doesn't matter anyway right?




Which is indeed a fact & you have been doing earliear for sure in your previous posts but this time you got lucky as i didnt research properly about that claim.








Yeah you can do the usual job of yours i.e *opportunistic scavanging of some one's wrong post * meanwhile ignoring your own idiotic posting of lots of wrong infos in your previous posts which i have indeed debunked it previously

Meanwhile you can still continue doing your usual job of clever quoting only those wrong post of others meanwhile ignoring the good part which you can pounce upon on your fellow forumers .
i have no issues with it

The article which you posted indeed take refferences from B.R.com beleive it or not .The source content almost same

Plus you still turn a blind eye on why Mirage 2k was used as escorts with MIrage 2k not due to your prevoius claim of low observabilty but due to better EW & self protection suite




Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions | Page 669






& fact still remains MIG 29 did the real escort job & Mirage 2K was a name sake escort plane in kargil war










sancho said:


> May I remind you that I was the one that suggested to move the discussion to a PM conversation long ago, because you kept on with your distractions and claims to off topic areas and *that I wanted to keep you away from exposing yourself more with false claims? But who rejected that and kept going on?*



Pfft!

So you are now playing the saints role & i am the bad guy !!! aehh

You were the guy who keep on posting false claims about LOw observabilty in a 4th gen plane is vital in escort role in foreign land against a high tech adversary meanwhile ignoring proper EW & self protection suite alongside it


but when i did try to correct you took the refuge of PM & keep on quoting on the 1st place at the same time .becoz *you didnt want me to correct your wrong claims inorder to save your face*
Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions | Page 669

& i can post the snipped pics of the message depicting the same date which you posted it but i wont as it is against ethics of foruming

But i didnt replied you in PM but through my post becoz i know your intentions why you PMed me
so i replied back this in my post in that thread only



> if you really want me to back off then plz stop quoting my post .There is a thin line for me between patience / annoyance if we stretch too much on this topic










Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions | Page 669

but you didnt & you keep on quoting my post after that also so this shows your true intentions about constructive discussion about rafale , which you didnt have in the 1st place




Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions | Page 670

*it is just becoz of our good ol relationship that i did maintain cool till this time if anyone else was there instead of you , the replies would be same but the manner would have been mixed with appropiate dosage of PA's & insults*








sancho said:


> So making a U-Turn now and asking for a seperate discussion is rather strange, but a propper discussion is evidently not what you want anyway.


U turn becoz 
you should know very well the after effect of posting kargil war things in a pak forums in a rafale thread ,& what would be the result if pak members see those thing & would start replying with their aggresive posts
& the thread gets ruined

But still despite that you are asking such things "why U turn & separate discussions "?this shows your intention from the very beginning were Flame baiting & meanwhile pretending to be the saint among us

NICE

*CHEERS*


----------



## sancho

DrSomnath999 said:


> GEEZ!!
> 
> truth about what ???



That you simply can't admit that you talk nonsense, even if clearly proven wrong (often even by your own sources) and caught red handed to make cheap claims and distractions, you will remain in your bubble. The sad thing about it is only, that you collect all the infos and still live in such denial.


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## Dash

While we discuss the scenarios we are missing the strike formations to account. I believe that is important and more important than fighter capabilities. My 2 cents


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## DrSomnath999

sancho said:


> That you simply can't admit that you talk nonsense, *even if clearly proven wrong* (often even by your own sources) and caught red handed to make cheap claims and distractions, you will remain in your bubble. The sad thing about it is only, that you collect all the infos and still live in such denial.



who is proven wrong let the readers decide atleast not us

& as usual you could have lectured the same good ol thing to me earliear also which should have ended the topic & could have saved our precious time for both of us but frustrating thing is you are doing it now.

really sad


*CHEERS*


----------



## sancho

Dash said:


> While we discuss the scenarios we are missing the strike formations to account. I believe that is important and more important than fighter capabilities. My 2 cents



That's what I tried to make our Dr understand as well, since the strike packages includes escort fighters, which doesn't necessarily have to be the most capable fighters contrary to his belives. That's why the Su 30 or Mig 29s were used mainly for air superiority or surveillance roles, while smaller fighter like the M2K, Mig 21s were used in escort strike roles, using their own advantages. Just as LCAs in a2a config could escort fighters in strike config in future as a formation, while more capable fighters will be diverted for other roles. However that depends on the fleet of each operator. During Libya we had seen British EFs escorting Tornados, Mirage 2000-5 of France and Qatar providing escorts for Mirage or F16s and so on. 



DrSomnath999 said:


> who is proven wrong let the readers decide atleast not us



Oh that's more than obvious buddy, you simply did everything to make that pretty clear.


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## DrSomnath999

sancho said:


> That's what I tried to make our Dr understand as well, since the strike packages includes escort fighters, which doesn't necessarily have to be the most capable fighters contrary to his belives. That's why the Su 30 or Mig 29s were used mainly for air superiority or surveillance roles, while smaller fighter like the M2K, Mig 21s were used in escort strike roles, using their own advantages. Just as LCAs in a2a config could escort fighters in strike config in future as a formation, while more capable fighters will be diverted for other roles. However that depends on the fleet of each operator. *During Libya we had seen British EFs escorting Tornados, Mirage 2000-5 of France and Qatar providing escorts for Mirage or F16s and so on*.



& sadly against whom ???? 

Oh yeah you have a point for sure 

equating there planes with their threat scenario with our similar planes with simliar threat scenario right. 
typhoon = LCA mark1 
LIBYA = Pakistan 
p.s ( i knowingly didnt mention the name of eastern neighbour it would be way too much of sarcastic)

* but surely sancho fault is mine i just cant understand that *













sancho said:


> Oh that's more than obvious buddy, you simply did everything to make that pretty clear.



what ever pleases you MY lord

all hail sancho 
all hail sancho 

*CHEERS*


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## sancho

DrSomnath999 said:


> * but surely sancho fault is mine i just cant understand that*



Of course it's your fault that you are in denial that IAF is doing that in every exercise at home and has been doing that in past wars. There's the bubble again!


----------



## Dash

sancho said:


> That's what I tried to make our Dr understand as well, since the strike packages includes escort fighters, which doesn't necessarily have to be the most capable fighters contrary to his belives. That's why the Su 30 or Mig 29s were used mainly for air superiority or surveillance roles, while smaller fighter like the M2K, Mig 21s were used in escort strike roles, using their own advantages. Just as LCAs in a2a config could escort fighters in strike config in future as a formation, while more capable fighters will be diverted for other roles. However that depends on the fleet of each operator. During Libya we had seen British EFs escorting Tornados, Mirage 2000-5 of France and Qatar providing escorts for Mirage or F16s and so on.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh that's more than obvious buddy, you simply did everything to make that pretty clear.



I think we need to clarify a point here that air superiority is not about showing who is superior in air, but to to clear the ground hurdles to get a hassle free bombing at later part of the war? And that's the reason escorts fight the enemy fighters while strike fighters do the job striking the ground. so even though the MKIs Might 29 s are called air superiority fighters the actual job is done by escorts. They need to be small, agile and fast enough to cheat and beat opposing forces, the reason why 21s are famous.

In our case the MKIs have a better radar and data link and will use them to give positions of enemy fighters to the escorts.


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## rockstarIN

Dash said:


> I think we need to clarify a point here that air superiority is not about showing who is superior in air, but to to clear the ground hurdles to get a hassle free bombing at later part of the war? And that's the reason escorts fight the enemy fighters while strike fighters do the job striking the ground. so even though the MKIs Might 29 s are called air superiority fighters the actual job is done by escorts. *They need to be small, agile and fast enough to cheat and beat opposing forces, the reason why 21s are famous.*
> 
> In our case the MKIs have a better radar and data link and will use them to give positions of enemy fighters to the escorts.




But they are quite short legged for a continuous fight at enemy territory.


----------



## Dash

rockstarIN said:


> But they are quite short legged for a continuous fight at enemy territory.



That was one of the reason going for a multirole fighter like Rafale.


----------



## sancho

Dash said:


> I think we need to clarify a point here that air superiority is not about showing who is superior in air, but to to clear the ground hurdles to get a hassle free bombing at later part of the war?



No, it's about securing an area against enemy fighters, like the Mig 29s did for example in Kargil, by keeping F16s out. The ground attacks would be done by seperate missions, be it SEAD or later CAS missions, which can include escort fighters, which have only the task to secure the strike package.
We saw the same in Libya or Kosovo or Iraq wars too, where fighters in air superiority role were used to secure the no fly zone / airspace, while strike formations with dedicated escort fighters if necessary were used in seperated missions.



Dash said:


> In our case the MKIs have a better radar and data link and will use them to give positions of enemy fighters to the escorts.



Exactly, that's why they remain in the air superiority role, where they can use their advantages to the max (flight performance, sensors, weapons), either to keep the airspace clear or to divert crucial radar data, while other fighters will be tasked to escort role.



rockstarIN said:


> But they are quite short legged for a continuous fight at enemy territory.



Escorts are not aimed for continous fight, but for protection and will not make the strike package vulnerable just to attack some enemy fighters. Not to mention that the escorts are used with light payloads only, therefor require less fuel for the same range than a the same fighter with heavy LGBs for example. For Pakistan or the border areas, most fighters hardly will use more than 2 fuel tanks. Mig 29 UPGs or LCA MK2 maybe even just a single one, because of the increased internal fuel. With improving mid air refuelling capabilities, the need of too many fuel tanks will be countered anyway.


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## DrSomnath999

Let me make everyone clear

escorts like MIG 21 (earliear) & LCA mk1 (current +future) role would be primarily used in tactical strike /CAS to troops that too in border areas only





The Tejas fighter's role in war | Business Standard News

they are not intended for escort in deep strike missions (High threat SEAD & Nuclear strike ) which rafale can do it with an adjacent rafale escort group or incase escort from SU30mki Super (with enhanced EW suite & slightly less RCS)
*till FFGA come into picture later*

This pic is from BR .com source about schematic roles in IAF in future which i have made








*CHEERS*


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## DrSomnath999

*Did Germany Try To Sell Us A Lemon??*


Fighter jet maker Eurofighter’s plans to sneak in through the backdoor looks set to backfire.




......
‘The possibility of the purchase of Dassault Rafale being cancelled at this advanced stage is extremely remote,’ said Rahul Bedi, veteran defence analyst for Jane’s Defence Weekly. ‘There is a never-exercised-before procedure under which India can, under very extreme and desperate circumstances, cancel the import of strategic equipment, but it is not likely to be invoked. Back-tracking on such a huge deal is also a question of India’s credibility and reliability.’

There are other, even more important reasons:

India would have to give adequate and acceptable reasons for cancellation. It would require tremendous political courage because a government that does so, would immediately come under attack from the Opposition for possible corruption.

Cancelling the deal now, would mean re-tendering. Even in the most optimistic of scenarios, a repeat of the entire procedure up to delivery of the aircraft could take up a further 20 years.

Given its urgent requirement and the growing regional security concerns, the Indian Air Force (IAF), which is satisfied with Dassault, is exerting huge pressure on the government to complete this deal so it can start flying the new MMRCAs as soon as possible.

*If the Dassault deal is completed by 2015, the first aircraft will be delivered only in 2018 and the last in 2025. To tide over the wait even up to 2018, France has reportedly offered two of its own operational Dassault squadrons with immediate effect. This is a standard procedure which is good for pilots to train and get used to the new aircraft*........


Did Germany Try To Sell Us A Lemon? | Swarajya


Lolling stuff about typhoon





*CHEERS*

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## sancho

DrSomnath999 said:


> Let me make everyone clear
> 
> *escorts* like MIG 21 (earliear) & *LCA mk1 (current +future)* role would be primarily used in tactical strike /CAS to troops that too in border areas only



 Another 180, but at least you are learning.


@Abingdonboy

Don't have access to Jane's but this article also shows that a speed up in the integration of Brimstone to EF is considered:



> *UK reverses cuts to Tornado fleet to sustain Iraq air war*
> 
> *Key Points*
> 
> The requirements of the anti-IS bombing campaign have caused the UK to reverse its decision to disband the II Squadron in March in order to keep more Tornado aircraft in service for a further 18 months
> *Additionally, the UK is looking to accelerate the integration of the Brimstone missile onto the Eurofighter Typhoon*



UK reverses cuts to Tornado fleet to sustain Iraq air war - IHS Jane's 360


P.S. @jha 

According to recent specs of the Gripen, the E/F seems to have increased it's weight much beyond the earlier claims of Saab. From 7.1ts it's seems to be up to 8t now, which leaves only a payload of hardly 5.1t contrary to the 6 or even 7ts Saab claimed in their PR. Will post more details in the appropriate thread later and tag you.


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## sancho

Crossposting from the MP forum (credits to olybrius)

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## DrSomnath999

sancho said:


> Another 180, but at least you are learning.
> 
> 
> .


thanks My lord

But still this post says for border areas only not for deep strike capabilties

Hmm 
180= 



*CHEERS*


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## sancho

DrSomnath999 said:


> But still this post says for border areas only not for deep strike capabilties



Exactly, just as I said throughout the whole earlier discussion, but you simply denied that and that LCA can even do escorts at all, just for the sake of denying and now you are saying exactly the same. But that explains things.


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## DrSomnath999

sancho said:


> Exactly, just as *I said throughout the whole earlier discussion*, but you simply denied that and that *LCA can even do escorts at all,* just for the sake of denying and now you are saying exactly the same. But that explains things.


Did i really said that* "LCA CAN EVEN DO ESCORTS AT ALL"*

& did you really said that *LCA can escort only for Tactical strike that too in border areas only ???



*

Hmm !!

i wonder who posted this post then in this thread before?





Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions | Page 671

perhaps IAF officials also do agree with some of my points in that part even if i meant that for foreign land & they for
border areas






The Tejas fighter's role in war | Business Standard News

*CHEERS*


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## Abingdonboy

*French firm to launch Indian earth observation satellite, move to boost gathering of intel*

_French space company Arianespace is scheduled to launch an Indian earth observation satellite (EOS) on December 4. It would contain an Electronic Intelligence System (ELINT) package that will boost New Delhi's capability to collect strategic intelligence in the neighbourhood.
While the ELINT satellite launched from French Guiana will act as a force multiplier for India's National Technical Research Organisation (NTRO), India has also asked French nuclear reactor supplier Areva to consider joining hands with Indian private sector to build steel pressure vessel forgings in order to supply pressurised reactors for 9,900 MW Jaitapur power plant in Maharashtra.
Both the issues were discussed at the 26th India-France Strategic Dialogue meeting on October 9 with Jacques Audibert, diplomatic advisor to French President Francois Hollande, meeting National Security Advisor Ajit Doval. Audibert also met Prime Minister Narendra Modi the next day.
*At the meeting, both sides decided to speed up the Rafale Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) deal* but a India-France proposal to produce short range surface to air missile was shot down by the Indian Air Force, which appeared to be in favour of DRDO developed Akaash medium range surface to air missile.
India and France have deepened cooperation in high technology, nuclear, space and intelligence areas. The ELINT satellite project was moved through NTRO in 2011 with both sides freezing technical classifications and parameter in 2013 strategic dialogue.[...]_

More:
http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-...1-1274647.aspx


As pointed out by olybrius on Milphotos.net

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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> _*At the meeting, both sides decided to speed up the Rafale Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) deal* _



Still just hopes from their side, what matters now is only what the Government / MoD actually wants and the French are suffering from the decisison of the new MoD. EC Fennec and Panther helicopters, additional Scorpenes and even Maitri SAM deals that were not only likely but close to be sealed, seems to be delayed and the outcome wide open now.
Have some doubts on the article though, neither is Maitri SAM aimed on IAF, nor is Akash a replacement, additional SPYDER SAMs would be.


----------



## PARIKRAMA

Any news from our french friend here? Hearing a buzz that negotiation for a sweetener deal is underway. 
BTW Russian ambassador comments abt rafales taken out by Su27 seems to be a bit too far fetched. But then again a direct salvo from a competitor who lost out is often misrepresenting. Hope this kind of talks make the signing quicker so that all can shut up permanently


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## halloweene

We can't give any news as we don't have any... I can just tell you that DA executives are smiling....


----------



## Basel

To much of the discussion now please buy them or dump them make a decision India.


----------



## cloud_9

French Navy receives first upgraded Rafale F3 - IHS Jane's 360

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## halloweene

F3.3' btw


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## SirHatesALot

This deal wont ever get signed.


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## halloweene

If you say so... Insider?


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## sancho

> *British RAF Now Flying Improved Typhoon Aircraft*
> 
> Typhoon fighters equipped with a package of new capabilities have entered operational service with the Royal Air Force...
> 
> ...*Separately, BAE is also working on a new set of upgrades for the jet, and a company spokesman said BAE expects to be under contract to integrate the latest version of the Brimstone ground attack missile, known as Brimstone 2, on Typhoon in the first quarter of 2015*...
> 
> ...
> Next up on the upgrade path for the Typhoon is an extension of the weapon types the jet can carry.
> 
> “We have contracts and work ongoing for the Phase 2 Enhancements package and long lead-time activity commenced around the Phase 3 Enhancements package,” the BAE spokeswoman said. “Phase 2 Enhancements will offer integration of the Stormshadow stand-off missile through P2Ea and the Meteor beyond-visual-range, air-to-air missile at P2Eb. *For Phase 3 Enhancements, we have funding from the UK MoD for long lead-time work for integration of the dual-mode Brimstone 2 weapon, with full contract award expected in Quarter 1 next year...*
> 
> *...Announcing the contract in June, BAE said integration on Typhoon could be completed by 2018*.
> 
> *Since then, an MoD source said, there has been an effort to speed up that process*.



British RAF Now Flying Improved Typhoon Aircraft | Defense News | defensenews.com



halloweene said:


> We can't give any news as we don't have any... I can just tell you that DA executives are smiling....



 Smiling didn't helped them in Brazil, nor did anything happend wrt Qatar as you expected in June right? The fact is, since the election Dassault officials "hope" for a signature of M-MRCA by the end of the year, but so far no clear sign was given from the new government. Moreover, the delay to the end of the year, makes risks to diverted the signature to the next FY higher too, depending on what deals get priority for funds this year. There isn't much difference for IAF if the contract is signed in December 2014 or 1st of April, while it is one for the MoD plannings and the government as a whole.


----------



## The Unnamed

sancho said:


> British RAF Now Flying Improved Typhoon Aircraft | Defense News | defensenews.com




bhai saab, humein kya ?

humey rafale aur redesigned to parameter super sukhoi dono chahiye. apart from pakfa. two deals with sukhoi for 5th gen craft. that should take good care of middle to heavy to stealth. bottom half and ground. where iaf lacks. no ?


----------



## PARIKRAMA

@halloweene 

Can u enlighten us where is now the hiccup? is the documentation so tedious that its nt over? or is it some cold feet syndrome (read reluctance) of Indian government. Surely, the way the whole thing is atm,. it looks a bit too much stretched.

i got to admit any signing delay by shifting to next FY would also hurt Dassault as atm they dont have any new signings to tide over this time. So i wish France and Dassault meet up PM Modi quickly and sign and finish it up quickly.


----------



## sancho

The Unnamed said:


> bhai saab, humein kya ?
> 
> humey rafale aur redesigned to parameter super sukhoi dono chahiye. apart from pakfa. two deals with sukhoi for 5th gen craft. that should take good care of middle to heavy to stealth. bottom half and ground. where iaf lacks. no ?



In english please. 

Of course it's the "lower" end where IAF actually lacks, those fighters that should do the bulk of the work and in an ideal world, LCA would had been developed in a reasonable time and in a medium class rather than the light class. However, the reality is, LCA is delayed and by far not capable enough to be an alternative for the top end fighters in certain missions. Just has our top end (MKI and FGFA) will be very heavy and costly to operate. That's where the M-MRCA should not only offer the required numbers to cover LCA delays, but also capability to provide an operational more cost-effective alternative to the top end. Currently IAF is dependent on high use of MKIs, since there is hardly a capable alternative in the fleet. With M-MRCA, the flight hours of MKI can be reduced, or it can be geared to certain missions. FGFA will be highly capable as a fighter, but what many people simply forget, it also will be veeeery expensive to operate and that will be the main restrictions for the numbers of stealth fighters and operational use of them. So especially in peace times, we need a capable alternative that can take over the bulk of the operations, at a more reasonable cost.


----------



## IND151

sancho said:


> In english please.
> 
> Of course it's the "lower" end where IAF actually lacks, those fighters that should do the bulk of the work and in an ideal world, LCA would had been developed in a reasonable time and in a medium class rather than the light class. However, the reality is, LCA is delayed and by far not capable enough to be an alternative for the top end fighters in certain missions. Just has our top end (MKI and FGFA) will be very heavy and costly to operate. That's where the M-MRCA should not only offer the required numbers to cover LCA delays, but also capability to provide an operational more cost-effective alternative to the top end. Currently IAF is dependent on high use of MKIs, since there is hardly a capable alternative in the fleet. With M-MRCA, the flight hours of MKI can be reduced, or it can be geared to certain missions. FGFA will be highly capable as a fighter, but what many people simply forget, it also will be veeeery expensive to operate and that will be the main restrictions for the numbers of stealth fighters and operational use of them. So especially in peace times, we need a capable alternative that can take over the bulk of the operations, at a more reasonable cost.



Not agreed.

LCA was supposed to repalce light fighters like Mig 21 and jags which it will.

And do you think it would have been wiser to jump directly to medium weight fighetr?


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## PARIKRAMA

@sancho 
What you said is perfect but the question in mind is what is the delay now for? and what efforts both sides are making to close out the delay and sign off. Surely, the wine is not gonna taste much better if its there just for extra fermenting. The relevance and time of every deal is there in any country's context of its outlook. The question is if FGFA gets signed first then surely Dassault deal would be pushed to next FY. Also every other new acquisition would further delay the signing. Even though initial contract amount for signing may be low but still it does matter to see when and where its getting allocated.It is this where we dont get any clue at all


----------



## sancho

IND151 said:


> Not agreed.



To what exactly? Didn't I said that LCA was about to replace the low end? It won't replace the Jags though.



IND151 said:


> And do you think it would have been wiser to jump directly to medium weight fighetr?



Yes, that's why I would have loved to see the J10 / F16 / Mirage 2000 type of fighters in IAF rather than LCA. It is still cost-effective and can be mass produced, but if properly developed would be far more capable than LCA. Look at China with the J11 / J10 combo, or the US with F15 / F16, the gap between MKI and LCA is simply far too wide as a hi lo combo.



PARIKRAMA said:


> @sancho
> What you said is perfect but the question in mind is what is the delay now for?



2012 to 2014 dealy caused by Dassault, for complying to RFP offest requirements and pointless debate on HALs workshare.
Today that is done, which leaves ToT and most importantly the final costs as an issue for negotiations. Another problem is, that we have a new government, which partially opposed the Rafale in the past and has to deal with it now. Simply pushing it through is surely not that easy for them and when we look at where the current importance is in defence deals, it clearly shows that the PM most likely will have an issue with the deal in it's current concept too, as his idea of make in India is different.



PARIKRAMA said:


> The question is if FGFA gets signed first then surely Dassault deal would be pushed to next FY. Also every other new acquisition would further delay the signing. Even though initial contract amount for signing may be low but still it does matter to see when and where its getting allocated.It is this where we dont get any clue at all



The more important point that the defence deals, might be how fast the growth is coming back, because that opens more space for the government to deal with things. As long as they are tied up with budget constrains at so many fields, they have to prioritise and that's also where defence deals fall short. From an operational level, there is no doubt about the importance of getting these fighters ASAP, but a new government will set it's priorities according to "their policies" and "their needs", which again, current decisions on key modernisations shows!


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## Taygibay

*2012 to 2014 dealy caused by Dassault, for complying to RFP offest requirements and pointless debate on HALs workshare.*

LOL Again that pure opinion of yours?
Never mind that the reverse view of Dassault wisely not wanting to assume responsibility for the
lacks of HAL, which are widely acknowledged by many wise Bharat citizens in any non-Rafale thread,
is in fact just as substantiated by the evidence, Sancho has found the light and all should follow!

Oh, well, at least you woke me up from this MMRCA nap!
Good for you and good day all, Tay.


----------



## sancho

Taygibay said:


> *2012 to 2014 dealy caused by Dassault, for complying to RFP offest requirements and pointless debate on HALs workshare.*
> 
> LOL Again that pure opinion of yours?



Facts, buddy facts! Rafale was shortlisted in jan 2012, while Dassault CEO could confirm compliance to the offset requirements of the RFP only by jan 2014. 
The link between Dassault and Reliance to gain larger shares was reported and discussed earlier too, which added another set of delays that could had been avoided. 

So delays are not always based on the Indian side, if you like it or not.

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## sancho

A bit OT, but still...



> *Air India Boeing 787 Dreamliner loses radio contact gets intercepted by Italian Typhoons*
> 
> A Boeing 787 Dreamliner, flying between Delhi and Rome as Air India AIC123 flight was intercepted by two Italian Air Force Eurofighter Typhoon interceptors from Grosseto airbase on Oct. 16.
> 
> According to the Italian Air Force, the aircraft, registration VT-ANQ, lost radio contact with the Air Traffic Control agencies and entered the Italian airspace unauthorized. For this reason the QRA (Quick Reaction Alert) cell at Grosseto airbase was scrambled to intercept, identify and escort the liner, as done last month with a Lebanese A320 following a bomb threat.
> 
> The two F-2000A jets of the 4° Stormo (Wing) reached the B787 at 24,000 feet to the southeast of Rome. The Typhoons identified the civil plane and shadowed it from distance, not to be seen by passengers and once at 30 kilometers from destination, they were cleared to return to their base.



The Aviationist » Air India Boeing 787 Dreamliner loses radio contact gets intercepted by Italian Typhoons


Bad Typhoon intercepting Indians!


----------



## The Unnamed

sancho said:


> In english please.
> 
> Of course it's the "lower" end where IAF actually lacks, those fighters that should do the bulk of the work and in an ideal world, LCA would had been developed in a reasonable time and in a medium class rather than the light class. However, the reality is, LCA is delayed and by far not capable enough to be an alternative for the top end fighters in certain missions. Just has our top end (MKI and FGFA) will be very heavy and costly to operate. That's where the M-MRCA should not only offer the required numbers to cover LCA delays, but also capability to provide an operational more cost-effective alternative to the top end. Currently IAF is dependent on high use of MKIs, since there is hardly a capable alternative in the fleet. With M-MRCA, the flight hours of MKI can be reduced, or it can be geared to certain missions. FGFA will be highly capable as a fighter, but what many people simply forget, it also will be veeeery expensive to operate and that will be the main restrictions for the numbers of stealth fighters and operational use of them. So especially in peace times, we need a capable alternative that can take over the bulk of the operations, at a more reasonable cost.



englishaaaa !!! wo..wokkayy..

exactly my thoughts ! rafale is gonna become the lower end ruler of the se asian sky. TILL lca make is 40 planes up and running. making mkis free for their role. air superiority against a large formation of enemy fighters.

ground attack and the ability to protect itself on a lo altitude mission would make rafale a good substitute for both bisons ( similar in size to rafale) and older jaguars and mig 27s. a team of rafales with dedicated missions is a stealth attack in this part of the world. still. training. the key in rafale deal..from IAF perspective.


----------



## jha

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/523844588465700865

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## PARIKRAMA

Well can anyone enlighten about whats rafale engine life in flying hours, cost of operations and overhaul time frame and hours.


It would be nice if the same can be given about Su30 MKI and may be some more fighters of Russian/Chinese/Eurofighter and may be american. Hopefully if LCA stats are there then its nice too.

Well how efficient is the fighters versus their roles/payloads. Surely "kitna deti hai"/ (how much it gives) perennial efficiency/mileage questions of car logic but still can some one throw some light on that too..

It would be nice to understand that and see the cost of operating different fleets in a nutshell


----------



## halloweene

sancho said:


> British RAF Now Flying Improved Typhoon Aircraft | Defense News | defensenews.com
> 
> 
> 
> Smiling didn't helped them in Brazil, nor did anything happend wrt Qatar as you expected in June right? The fact is, since the election Dassault officials "hope" for a signature of M-MRCA by the end of the year, but so far no clear sign was given from the new government. Moreover, the delay to the end of the year, makes risks to diverted the signature to the next FY higher too, depending on what deals get priority for funds this year. There isn't much difference for IAF if the contract is signed in December 2014 or 1st of April, while it is one for the MoD plannings and the government as a whole.


They didn't really smile about Brazil tbh. About Qatar, yes i hoped so but not them (i'm not on a daily schedule contact with them).
About Ef upgrades, P1Eb was scheduled this year and well happens in time. Good. Writing a story atm about Ef program btw . 
But i do have probs in finalizing it. For example, Meteor capability (not full integration) was scheduled with F2Eb (aka SRP 14 Step2), but on RAF site i see 2015/2016 expected. Any help for official quotes are welcome!



Code:


2012 to 2014 dealy caused by Dassault, for complying to RFP offest requirements and pointless debate on HALs workshare.

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/dassault-rafale-tender-news-discussions.4347/page-675#ixzz3Gj8Wb0dt


No, it was NEVER written anywhere that seller was to be responsible for HAL work.


----------



## sancho

halloweene said:


> About Ef upgrades, P1Eb was scheduled this year and well happens in time. Good. Writing a story atm about Ef program btw .
> But i do have probs in finalizing it. For example, Meteor capability (not full integration) was scheduled with F2Eb (aka SRP 14 Step2), but on RAF site i see 2015/2016 expected. Any help for official quotes are welcome!



Will be interesting to read, but I'm not too familiar with the EF upgrade codes (too confusing). METEOR was suppose to be followed by Storm Shadow wasn't it? But Storm Shadow is expected only by next year (P2EA right?), so METEOR by 2016 seems realistic.



halloweene said:


> No, it was NEVER written anywhere that seller was to be responsible for HAL work.



Which no Indian official stated in the firstplace! The whole responsibility issue was made up by Dassault, to divert workshare from HAL to Reliance and not because the Indian side wanted to keep Dassault in a stronghold of being responsible for HAL's work. That's why the official responses from the MoD as well as IAF always pointed to the RFP and made clear that HAL will remain the prime Indian manufacturer for "workshare" and not to any responsibility clauses. At the end no change of workshare was allowed and some minor changes in the contracts were achived, which could had been cleared within weeks and not 1 year as it took now. But that simply was not what Dassault / Reliance aimed on with these lengthy negotiations.[/quote]


----------



## Somras

hell lets scrap MMRCA - rafale 

lets buy more of Su30Mki and LCA 

for the cost of 1 Rafale =120mill

we can get 1 Super Su30Mki (70 mil Est) + 1 LCA mk2 (40 mil -est) + 10 Mil spare 

so for the price of 126 Rafale 

we can buy 126 Super Su30mki + 80 LCA mk2 + 40 LCA mk1 (over and above 40 already ordered)


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## cerberus

Somras said:


> we can get 1 Super Su30Mki (70 mil Est)


100 million Est according to current needed confrigration


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## Somras

cerberus said:


> 100 million Est according to current needed confrigration




any source for 100 mil?


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## MokshaVimukthi

Somras said:


> hell lets scrap MMRCA - rafale
> 
> lets buy more of Su30Mki and LCA
> 
> for the cost of 1 Rafale =120mill
> 
> we can get 1 Super Su30Mki (70 mil Est) + 1 LCA mk2 (40 mil -est) + 10 Mil spare
> 
> so for the price of 126 Rafale
> 
> we can buy 126 Super Su30mki + 80 LCA mk2 + 40 LCA mk1 (over and above 40 already ordered)



You are wrong. 

The last order for 42 Su 30 MKI from HAL was worth almost 15,000 crores which make each Su 30 MKI worth 58.5 Million $ or ~ 60 Million $. 

The LCA price was pegged at 162 crores per aircraft by HAL which makes it 26.5 million $ for Tejas. 

So for 120 million we get either 2 Su 30 MKI or 

One Su30 MKI + 2 LCA Mk1

Alternatively we can also assume that I Rafale is better than 2 Su 30MKI or one Su 30 MKI+2 LCA. (considering the professional abilities of IAF)


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## cerberus

Somras said:


> any source for 100 mil?


Latest figures tabled in parliament, however, show that another deal for 40 + 2 Sukhois (2 are replacements for aircraft that crashed last year), to be manufactured by Hindustan Aeronautical Limited (HAL) under licence from the Russian Federation’s Irkutsk, has been struck for $4.3 billion (Rs20,125 crore), that is $102 million (Rs480 crore) a piece.
Aircraft deals with ‘friend’ Russia costing dear | Latest News & Updates at Daily News & Analysis



MokshaVimukthi said:


> The last order for 42 Su 30 MKI from HAL was worth almost 15,000 crores which make each Su 30 MKI worth 58.5 Million $ or ~ 60 Million $.


Latest figures tabled in parliament, however, show that another deal for 40 + 2 Sukhois (2 are replacements for aircraft that crashed last year), to be manufactured by Hindustan Aeronautical Limited (HAL) under licence from the Russian Federation’s Irkutsk, has been struck for $4.3 billion (Rs20,125 crore), that is $102 million (Rs480 crore) a piece


Aircraft deals with ‘friend’ Russia costing dear | Latest News & Updates at Daily News & Analysis


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## sancho

halloweene said:


> About Ef upgrades, P1Eb was scheduled this year and well happens in time. Good. Writing a story atm about Ef program btw .
> But i do have probs in finalizing it. For example, Meteor capability (not full integration) was scheduled with F2Eb (aka SRP 14 Step2), but on RAF site i see 2015/2016 expected. Any help for official quotes are welcome!



P.S. No official quote, but maybe Scorpions explanations helps:



> What does mean (P2E will be delivered on two separate software releases
> P2EA by the end of 2015 and P2EB by the first quarter of 2017.) ? Does it mean P2EA/SRP14 , P2EB/SRP16 or am I wrong ?...
> 
> ...Nope it's supposed to be two revisions of SRP14, refered to as step 1 & 2 respectively. SRP16 would be introduced with P3E which hasn't been contracted yet.



eurofighter @ starstreak.net • View topic - Typhoon Upgrades & Enhancements


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## MokshaVimukthi

cerberus said:


> Latest figures tabled in parliament, however, show that another deal for 40 + 2 Sukhois (2 are replacements for aircraft that crashed last year), to be manufactured by Hindustan Aeronautical Limited (HAL) under licence from the Russian Federation’s Irkutsk, has been struck for $4.3 billion (Rs20,125 crore), that is $102 million (Rs480 crore) a piece.
> Aircraft deals with ‘friend’ Russia costing dear | Latest News & Updates at Daily News & Analysis
> 
> 
> Latest figures tabled in parliament, however, show that another deal for 40 + 2 Sukhois (2 are replacements for aircraft that crashed last year), to be manufactured by Hindustan Aeronautical Limited (HAL) under licence from the Russian Federation’s Irkutsk, has been struck for $4.3 billion (Rs20,125 crore), that is $102 million (Rs480 crore) a piece
> 
> 
> Aircraft deals with ‘friend’ Russia costing dear | Latest News & Updates at Daily News & Analysis



That was the total price for 42 Sukhoi-30MKI fighters and 71 additional Mi-17 V5 helicopters which was signed when putin was here. 

Here are facts from a FAR more Reliable newspaper called the Hindu. 

India, Russia sign defence deals worth around $3 billion - The Hindu

...India today inked deals worth around $ 3 billion (Rs. 16510 crore) with Russia to procure 42 new Su–30 MKI combat aircraft and 71 Mi–17V5 medium-lift helicopters.

...Under one contract worth around $ 2.2 billion (Rs. 12107 crore) for licence production of 42 Su–30MKIs, Russia will deliver technical kits to the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL)


*i.e each Su 30MKi kit was worth 47.2 million $.*

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## cerberus

MokshaVimukthi said:


> That was the total price for 42 Sukhoi-30MKI fighters and 71 additional Mi-17 V5 helicopters which was signed when putin was here.
> 
> Here are facts from a FAR more Reliable newspaper called the Hindu.
> 
> India, Russia sign defence deals worth around $3 billion - The Hindu
> 
> ...India today inked deals worth around $ 3 billion (Rs. 16510 crore) with Russia to procure 42 new Su–30 MKI combat aircraft and 71 Mi–17V5 medium-lift helicopters.
> 
> ...Under one contract worth around $ 2.2 billion (Rs. 12107 crore) for licence production of 42 Su–30MKIs, Russia will deliver technical kits to the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL)
> 
> 
> *i.e each Su 30MKi kit was worth 47.2 million $.*


Latest figures tabled in parliament, however, show that another deal for 40 + 2 Sukhois (2 are replacements for aircraft that crashed last year), to be manufactured by Hindustan Aeronautical Limited (HAL) under licence from the Russian Federation’s Irkutsk, has been struck for $4.3 billion (Rs20,125 crore), that is $102 million (Rs480 crore) a piece

Source: Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions | Page 676
you missed last line 102 million per piece 
that is $102 million (Rs480 crore) a piece.
In June 2010, it was reported that the Cabinet Committee on Security had cleared the 

150 billion (US$2.4 billion) deal and that the 42 aircraft would be in service by 2018.[23][24]

IAF Su-30MKI
By August 2010, the cost increased to $4.3 billion or $102 million each.this increased unit cost compared to the previous unit cost of $40 million in 2007, has led to the rumours that these latest order of 42 Su-30MKIs are for the Strategic Forces Command (SFC) and these aircraft will be optimised and hardwired for nuclear weapons delivery.

Sukhoi Su-30MKI - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## MokshaVimukthi

Here is Russian source,

India to Buy $3 Bln Worth of Russian Warplanes, Helicopters | Business | RIA Novosti

India will buy 71 Mi-17B-5 Hip helicopters worth $1.3 billion, while the other provides for the delivery of assembly kits for 42 Su-30MKI Flanker fighters, worth $1.6 billion.

Which give price of each Mi -17B-5 Helicopter at 18.3 Million $

and

Price of each Su 30MKI knock down kit at 38 million $.



cerberus said:


> Latest figures tabled in parliament, however, show that another deal for 40 + 2 Sukhois (2 are replacements for aircraft that crashed last year), to be manufactured by Hindustan Aeronautical Limited (HAL) under licence from the Russian Federation’s Irkutsk, has been struck for $4.3 billion (Rs20,125 crore), that is $102 million (Rs480 crore) a piece
> 
> Source: Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions | Page 676
> you missed last line 102 million per piece
> that is $102 million (Rs480 crore) a piece.
> In June 2010, it was reported that the Cabinet Committee on Security had cleared the
> 
> 150 billion (US$2.4 billion) deal and that the 42 aircraft would be in service by 2018.[23][24]
> 
> IAF Su-30MKI
> By August 2010, the cost increased to $4.3 billion or $102 million each.this increased unit cost compared to the previous unit cost of $40 million in 2007, has led to the rumours that these latest order of 42 Su-30MKIs are for the Strategic Forces Command (SFC) and these aircraft will be optimised and hardwired for nuclear weapons delivery.
> 
> Sukhoi Su-30MKI - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




YOU POST says that Cabinet Committee on Security cleared 150 billion Rs. which is 15,000 crores for 42 Su 30MKI. 

That translates to 357 crores per Su 30MKI or 58.5 Million $. 

Now pls stop quoting me further. You can believe what ever you want.

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## sancho

MokshaVimukthi said:


> Alternatively we can also assume that I Rafale is better than 2 Su 30MKI or one Su 30 MKI+2 LCA.



Only if the price of the fighters would tell you anything about the capability of the fighter and it's operational worth for IAF, but it doesn't (1 x Rafale can operationally equal 1.5 x LCA in strike and another LCA in escort config). Just as these comparisions of costs, doesn't include the aims of the M-MRCA competition, which apart of getting a new fighter, was to get new capabilities for IAF and industrial advantages for the Indian industry. Both these aims can't be justified by more Su 30s and LCAs, because they deliver the same weapons and techs IAF already has, nor will they add new industrial capabilities, since we are producing these fighters already...

And if all that would not enough to show that it doesn't make sense to claim LCA would be an alternative, the simple fact that LCA MK2 is nowhere near to be developed at least as a prototype, the fact that even ADA/DRDO officials stated that the early MK2s might not have AESA, or the fact that we still don't know the operational capability MK2 might get by the time (2019), should make clear that it's still largely a paper project, while IAF needs a fighter that is ready and available as soon as possible!


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## MokshaVimukthi

sancho said:


> Only if the price of the fighters would tell you anything about the capability of the fighter and it's operational worth for IAF, but it doesn't (1 x Rafale can operationally equal 1.5 x LCA in strike and another LCA in escort config). Just as these comparisions of costs, doesn't include the aims of the M-MRCA competition, which apart of getting a new fighter, was to get new capabilities for IAF and industrial advantages for the Indian industry. Both these aims can't be justified by more Su 30s and LCAs, because they deliver the same weapons and techs IAF already has, nor will they add new industrial capabilities, since we are producing these fighters already...
> 
> And if all that would not enough to show that it doesn't make sense to claim LCA would be an alternative, the simple fact that LCA MK2 is nowhere near to be developed at least as a prototype, the fact that even ADA/DRDO officials stated that the early MK2s might not have AESA, or the fact that we still don't know the operational capability MK2 might get by the time (2019), should make clear that it's still largely a paper project, while IAF needs a fighter that is ready and available as soon as possible!



Hence the world "Assume", not point in knocking down a strawman.


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## sancho

MokshaVimukthi said:


> Hence the world "Assume", not point in knocking down a strawman.



Assume or not, your base was the cost for X fighters and that's the wrong part. Another example is the Mig 29K, that we buy for around $46 millios each, N-LCA MK2 will pretty much come at the same cost, but is not able to provide the same operational performance. 
And it wasn't against you, but against the idea that Su30s + LCA would be an alternative, just because the costs for X fighters "might" be similar.


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## cerberus

MokshaVimukthi said:


> Hence the world "Assume", not point in knocking down a strawman.



and you keep your rants on the price are pecked to 102 million each for 42 mki which are of super sukhoi standard armed with brahmos strategic missile same Upgrade will applied all mki's under IAF


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## Somras

MokshaVimukthi said:


> You are wrong.
> 
> The last order for 42 Su 30 MKI from HAL was worth almost 15,000 crores which make each Su 30 MKI worth 58.5 Million $ or ~ 60 Million $.
> 
> The LCA price was pegged at 162 crores per aircraft by HAL which makes it 26.5 million $ for Tejas.
> 
> So for 120 million we get either 2 Su 30 MKI or
> 
> One Su30 MKI + 2 LCA Mk1
> 
> Alternatively we can also assume that I Rafale is better than 2 Su 30MKI or one Su 30 MKI+2 LCA. (considering the professional abilities of IAF)



Is it possible that 1 rafale is better than either of the combinations ?

i Rafale is better than 2 Su30MKI or 

1 Rafale better than 1 Su 30 Mki + 2 LCA Mk1 

1 Rafale is better than 1 Su30MKI + 1 LCA mk1 + 1 LCAMk2 

also this kind of combination 
will rapidly ramp up Nos which are much desired to increase the Squadron strenght of IAF 

while we will only get 126 Rafale in the same price we can get 

126 Su30 MKI + 126 LCA Mk1 + 126 LCAmk2 

also having 252 nos of LCA will free up Su30MKI in IAF fleet to focus more on AIr superiority Air Dominance Roles 

while the 252 LCA can replace and takeover Mig 21 roles - point defence, Air Interception, CAS, Ground Pounding etc



sancho said:


> Only if the price of the fighters would tell you anything about the capability of the fighter and it's operational worth for IAF, but it doesn't (1 x Rafale can operationally equal 1.5 x LCA in strike and another LCA in escort config). Just as these comparisions of costs, doesn't include the aims of the M-MRCA competition, which apart of getting a new fighter, was to get new capabilities for IAF and industrial advantages for the Indian industry. Both these aims can't be justified by more Su 30s and LCAs, because they deliver the same weapons and techs IAF already has, nor will they add new industrial capabilities, since we are producing these fighters already...
> 
> And if all that would not enough to show that it doesn't make sense to claim LCA would be an alternative, the simple fact that LCA MK2 is nowhere near to be developed at least as a prototype, the fact that even ADA/DRDO officials stated that the early MK2s might not have AESA, or the fact that we still don't know the operational capability MK2 might get by the time (2019), should make clear that it's still largely a paper project, while IAF needs a fighter that is ready and available as soon as possible!




you mean to say a single rafale can replace 2 LCA + 1 Su30MKI?


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## MokshaVimukthi

sancho said:


> Assume or not, your base was the cost for X fighters and that's the wrong part. Another example is the Mig 29K, that we buy for around $46 millios each, N-LCA MK2 will pretty much come at the same cost, but is not able to provide the same operational performance.
> And it wasn't against you, but against the idea that Su30s + LCA would be an alternative, just because the costs for X fighters "might" be similar.



Cost is ALWAYS the main factor in real life. Do you work for a living ? just curious. You sound like a college kid living on parents money. 

ANY purchase is first and foremost weighted against cost benefit ratio. Rafale will be selected if it offers the best ratio, its always as simple as that. End of the day every purchase is designed to make our war making capability deliver bang for the buck. That is what evolution in arms and ammunition is all about. 

All those technological marvels is ALL about increasing the Bang for the buck.



Somras said:


> Is it possible that 1 rafale is better than either of the combinations ?
> i Rafale is better than 2 Su30MKI or
> 1 Rafale better than 1 Su 30 Mki + 2 LCA Mk1
> 1 Rafale is better than 1 Su30MKI + 1 LCA mk1 + 1 LCAMk2
> also this kind of combination
> will rapidly ramp up Nos which are much desired to increase the Squadron strenght of IAF
> while we will only get 126 Rafale in the same price we can get
> 126 Su30 MKI + 126 LCA Mk1 + 126 LCAmk2
> also having 252 nos of LCA will free up Su30MKI in IAF fleet to focus more on AIr superiority Air Dominance Roles
> while the 252 LCA can replace and takeover Mig 21 roles - point defence, Air Interception, CAS, Ground Pounding etc



Rafale has to be be better than any available combination for IAF and MoD to take a call to purchase it. There is no two ways on it. 

End of the day all technological advancements are all about delivering higher destructive power for the same cost. Include opportunity cost and cost of Risk to your equations. End of the day its all about the money honey.


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## Somras

MokshaVimukthi said:


> Rafale has to be be better than any available combination for IAF and MoD to take a call to purchase it. There is no two ways on it.
> 
> End of the day all technological advancements are all about delivering higher destructive power for the same cost. Include opportunity cost and cost of Risk to your equations. End of the day its all about the money honey.




thats the whole point 

we can get more bang for the buck IF we drop rafale


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## Bang Galore

MokshaVimukthi said:


> Alternatively we can also assume that I Rafale is better than 2 Su 30MKI or one Su 30 MKI+2 LCA. (considering the professional abilities of IAF)



I made a similar point for long - that the MMRCA deal was flawed because we ended up shortlisting the two most expensive platforms & then squared of one against the other on cost. Guaranteed to blow your budget to bits. Would have very much liked to know what the unit costs of a Gripen & F18 was and we could then have a better idea of how much exactly the Rafale _(or the EF) _was better by & what would be the cost for being that much better. Might have given us a much better picture than doing it this way.


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## Kloitra

Somras said:


> Is it possible that 1 rafale is better than either of the combinations ?
> 
> i Rafale is better than 2 Su30MKI or
> 
> 1 Rafale better than 1 Su 30 Mki + 2 LCA Mk1
> 
> 1 Rafale is better than 1 Su30MKI + 1 LCA mk1 + 1 LCAMk2
> 
> also this kind of combination
> will rapidly ramp up Nos which are much desired to increase the Squadron strenght of IAF
> 
> while we will only get 126 Rafale in the same price we can get
> 
> 126 Su30 MKI + 126 LCA Mk1 + 126 LCAmk2
> 
> also having 252 nos of LCA will free up Su30MKI in IAF fleet to focus more on AIr superiority Air Dominance Roles
> 
> while the 252 LCA can replace and takeover Mig 21 roles - point defence, Air Interception, CAS, Ground Pounding etc
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you mean to say a single rafale can replace 2 LCA + 1 Su30MKI?



I hope you are also adding the weapon packages, life cycle costs. Su30 is maintenance heavy, requiring an engine overhaul every 700 hours. Adding more Su30 mki/LCA would not give the additional capability provided by Rafale. ToT was part of the deal. Not limiting to one supplier (Russia).
It would be better if you compare with western fighters only.


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## halloweene

sancho said:


> P.S. No official quote, but maybe Scorpions explanations helps:
> 
> 
> 
> eurofighter @ starstreak.net • View topic - Typhoon Upgrades & Enhancements


TY Sancho, i'm in contact with Scorpion and his explanations help a lot. but SRP14 Step1 is sensed to be P2Ea, and Step2 PE2b. Maybe they switched Meteor integration from P2Eb to P2Ea, or the capability will be tested before but the induction in forces will go with P2Eb


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## Somras

Kloitra said:


> I hope you are also adding the weapon packages, life cycle costs. Su30 is maintenance heavy, requiring an engine overhaul every 700 hours. Adding more Su30 mki/LCA would not give the additional capability provided by Rafale. ToT was part of the deal. Not limiting to one supplier (Russia).
> It would be better if you compare with western fighters only.




700hrs 

pl recheck 

weapons package is not included neither in rafale 

even the commitee members 2 memebers have questioned the life cycle costs calculation for Rafale 

saying that Rafale didnt provide many details and figures and also doubted many assumptions etc for lCC calculations for Rafale 

also Su30MKI is maintenance heavy ans so is Rafale 

neither can be flown 3 sorties / day 

only LCA can fly 3/4 sories / day 

buying a combo of LCA and SU30MKI will do what ?

it will 

1. increase the Nos of IAF - increase the Squadran strangth 

2. having large nos of LCA in the IAF will help in reducing the relaince on Heavy plane (Su30MKI) for simple tasks +will keep it free


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## greatone

Why is IAF so infatuated with getting so many different platforms ?
Cant they make do with MKIs as high end and Mirages/Mig29/Mig 21 as low end 4th gen platforms till we get LCA, FGFA and AMCA(in that order)
Why the need for Rafale now ?
When the whole world is moving towards 5th gen and trying to save costs by using a single platform( read F 35), our highly professional air force wants our country to give away anywhere between 10-15% of our total foreign exchange for 126 shiny toys(these btw are are more or less as capable as planes already in our inventory)

Is that really justifiable ?

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## Kloitra

Somras said:


> 700hrs
> 
> pl recheck



The Tribune, Chandigarh, India - Main News


> As a precautionary step, the IAF has started servicing the engine after 700 flying hrs instead 1,000 hrs



If the terms servicing and overhauling have different meaning in the context, than I apologize for confusion. 



> weapons package is not included neither in rafale
> 
> even the commitee members 2 memebers have questioned the life cycle costs calculation for Rafale
> 
> saying that Rafale didnt provide many details and figures and also doubted many assumptions etc for lCC calculations for Rafale
> 
> also Su30MKI is maintenance heavy ans so is Rafale
> 
> neither can be flown 3 sorties / day
> 
> only LCA can fly 3/4 sories / day



I vaguely remember the deal included training, infra and some weapons. I might be wrong. On cost, it is general assumption that a western fighter is generally easy on maintenance. And given Rafale is lighter, it is cheaper to use than Mki.



> buying a combo of LCA and SU30MKI will do what ?
> 
> it will
> 
> 1. increase the Nos of IAF - increase the Squadran strangth
> 
> 2. having large nos of LCA in the IAF will help in reducing the relaince on Heavy plane (Su30MKI) for simple tasks +will keep it free


Rafale is better suited for SEAD missions. I do remember reading there are some other requirements that Rafale meats better than Mki.


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## MokshaVimukthi

Somras said:


> thats the whole point
> 
> we can get more bang for the buck IF we drop rafale



I would like to think that the IAF knows its maths better than us.



Bang Galore said:


> I made a similar point for long - that the MMRCA deal was flawed because we ended up shortlisting the two most expensive platforms & then squared of one against the other on cost. Guaranteed to blow your budget to bits. Would have very much liked to know what the unit costs of a Gripen & F18 was and we could then have a better idea of how much exactly the Rafale _(or the EF) _was better by & what would be the cost for being that much better. Might have given us a much better picture than doing it this way.



I believe the RFP would have defined a budget. It is unlikely that the MoD would have cleared that tender if there was not price attached to it and all participants had to offer proposals around that range. That is usually the way its done on commercial deals. 

But if it was not done that way then its a serious issue. Maybe an RTI or CAG report can reveal that. But no one will be surprised if IAF does not bother about such things. It is one of the effects of lack of strategic thinking which our forces demonstrate from time to time.


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## janon

MokshaVimukthi said:


> ANY purchase is first and foremost weighted against cost benefit ratio. Rafale will be selected if it offers the best ratio, its always as simple as that. End of the day every purchase is designed to make our war making capability deliver bang for the buck. That is what evolution in arms and ammunition is all about.



That's what it should be, but I'm not sure if that's what we got with Rafale. All things considered, the F-18SH might have given the most value for money - not just for the fighter itself, but even more so for the weapons package. American weapons cost a fraction of what European ones cost.

I'm afraid we did not make the right choice, in maximizing value for money. It was a mistake to exclude cost considerations in the first round - purely on technical merit, unsurprisingly the two most expensive fighters won. I agree with @Bang Galore, that we should have included the SH in the cost negotiation round, at least to get a sweeter bargain.


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## The Unnamed

janon said:


> That's what it should be, but I'm not sure if that's what we got with Rafale. All things considered, the F-18SH might have given the most value for money - not just for the fighter itself, but even more so for the weapons package. American weapons cost a fraction of what European ones cost.
> 
> I'm afraid we did not make the right choice, in maximizing value for money. It was a mistake to exclude cost considerations in the first round - purely on technical merit, unsurprisingly the two most expensive fighters won. I agree with @Bang Galore, that we should have included the SH in the cost negotiation round, at least to get a sweeter bargain.



totally there with u. but with growlers too. atleast 2 sqdns worth. australia has an edge over even japan in asia in case of an actual air attack.

having said that rafale is better for us from a business angle too. i hope nobody buys rafale. plus hornet is direct US. it IS risky.


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## MokshaVimukthi

janon said:


> That's what it should be, but I'm not sure if that's what we got with Rafale. All things considered, the F-18SH might have given the most value for money - not just for the fighter itself, but even more so for the weapons package. American weapons cost a fraction of what European ones cost.
> 
> I'm afraid we did not make the right choice, in maximizing value for money. It was a mistake to exclude cost considerations in the first round - purely on technical merit, unsurprisingly the two most expensive fighters won. I agree with @Bang Galore, that we should have included the SH in the cost negotiation round, at least to get a sweeter bargain.



As I said earlier there is opportunity cost and risk cost. In my own estimate that will price the F-18 out of contention.


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## Somras

Kloitra said:


> If the terms servicing and overhauling have different meaning in the context, than I apologize for confusion.
> 
> 
> 
> I vaguely remember the deal included training, infra and some weapons. I might be wrong. On cost, it is general assumption that a western fighter is generally easy on maintenance. And given Rafale is lighter, it is cheaper to use than Mki.
> 
> 
> Rafale is better suited for SEAD missions. I do remember reading there are some other requirements that Rafale meats better than Mki.




the deal includes infra, it does not include weapons 

Rafale is bettter suited than Su30 MKI is just a perceptions 

whatever Rafale can do SU30MKI can do


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## Somras

MokshaVimukthi said:


> I would like to think that the IAF knows its maths better than us.
> 
> I believe the RFP would have defined a budget. It is unlikely that the MoD would have cleared that tender if there was not price attached to it and all participants had to offer proposals around that range. That is usually the way its done on commercial deals.
> 
> But if it was not done that way then its a serious issue. Maybe an RTI or CAG report can reveal that. But no one will be surprised if IAF does not bother about such things. It is one of the effects of lack of strategic thinking which our forces demonstrate from time to time.




i woould like to think in such a manner too but the history of IAF and the historyof this deal dosent give me much confidence 

At the time of KArgil -1999 our IAF was caught with its pants down 

they had thought of a scenarios where they would need to go for accurate bombing in mountains 

though they had bought Mirage 2000 they were not configured for bombing 

none of the Jag strike ac were neither able to lift off from Leh nor were they able to bomb in the mountains 

Even Mirage 2000 even today is not bale to takeoff from leh at full load.

As far as Rafale deal i concerned 

it is only the IAF in the whole world who wants to go for Hi/MEd/Lo aircraft mi. All other Airforces operate at Hi/Lo mix

+

IAF wanted to replace Mig 21 so the RFI floated was for a single engine fighter. NOw tell me should we replace Mig 21 with rafale ?

IAF wanted to purchase Mirage 2000, and initially mirage was pitched but when they (IAF+Dasault) saw the competition they were scared and so they pitched in Rafale 

Also the original price Quoted for Rafale was within 10 billion now the reported prices are rising day by day to touch around 23-25billion

23/25 billion$ iss serious money and that too for 126 planes


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## cerberus

Somras said:


> i woould like to think in such a manner too but the history of IAF and the historyof this deal dosent give me much confidence
> 
> At the time of KArgil -1999 our IAF was caught with its pants down
> 
> they had thought of a scenarios where they would need to go for accurate bombing in mountains
> 
> though they had bought Mirage 2000 they were not configured for bombing
> 
> none of the Jag strike ac were neither able to lift off from Leh nor were they able to bomb in the mountains
> 
> Even Mirage 2000 even today is not bale to takeoff from leh at full load.
> 
> As far as Rafale deal i concerned
> 
> it is only the IAF in the whole world who wants to go for Hi/MEd/Lo aircraft mi. All other Airforces operate at Hi/Lo mix
> 
> +
> 
> IAF wanted to replace Mig 21 so the RFI floated was for a single engine fighter. NOw tell me should we replace Mig 21 with rafale ?
> 
> IAF wanted to purchase Mirage 2000, and initially mirage was pitched but when they (IAF+Dasault) saw the competition they were scared and so they pitched in Rafale
> 
> Also the original price Quoted for Rafale was within 10 billion now the reported prices are rising day by day to touch around 23-25billion
> 
> 23/25 billion$ iss serious money and that too for 126 planes


 Rafale is one heck of fighter and western tech don't come cheap.it will secure our dominance in Asia


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## Somras

cerberus said:


> Rafale is one heck of fighter and western tech don't come cheap.it will secure our dominance in Asia



it is agood fighter - Agreed

can it replace 1 Su30mki + 2 LCA's - Hell no


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## cerberus

Somras said:


> it is agood fighter - Agreed
> 
> can it replace 1 Su30mki + 2 LCA's - Hell no


Sorry to say you are to much exaggerating lca mk2 as far I know LCA mk2 is still in papers it don't .progress of tech like Aesa radar is still unknown whereas Rafale is fully operational for years with full operational Aesa radar it's only fighter after Americans.


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## Somras

cerberus said:


> Sorry to say you are to much exaggerating lca mk2 as far I know LCA mk2 is still in papers it don't .progress of tech like Aesa radar is still unknown whereas Rafale is fully operational for years with full operational Aesa radar it's only fighter after Americans.




read the whole posts correctly 

i wrote 1 Su30 + 2 LCA (1LCa mk1 / 2 Lcam1 / 1lcam1 + 1LCamk2 )

anywaay those are my views - 

i dont beleive Rafale can replace 1 su30mki +2 LCA 

you can have different views of course 

in that case lets agree to disagree


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## cerberus

Somras said:


> read the whole posts correctly
> 
> i wrote 1 Su30 + 2 LCA (1LCa mk1 / 2 Lcam1 / 1lcam1 + 1LCamk2 )
> 
> anywaay those are my views -
> 
> i dont beleive Rafale can replace 1 su30mki +2 LCA
> 
> you can have different views of course
> 
> in that case lets agree to disagree


Look Im one of those who always favor indigenous over foreign tech but realistically we are no where near to manufacture fighter like rafale Indigenously altleast in this decade.Our squadrons strength is falling day by day our Pilots are obliged to fly 50 year old fighters which has killed many pilots so it's best we go for best and suitable option available for them .saving fews bucks over lives of our Soilders is not very suitable choice . Rafale is best choice it's also negate are dependency on Russian tech which also available to chinese.


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## Bang Galore

cerberus said:


> .Our squadrons strength is falling day by day our Pilots are obliged to fly 50 year old fighters which has killed many pilots so it's best we go for best and suitable option available for them .*saving fews bucks over lives of our Soilders is not very suitable choice *. .



That's a false choice. The Rafale is so damn expensive that IAF will be able to replace only a few of those that requires replacing. Essentially that will condemn more of our pilots to fly legacy aircrafts for a very long time because the budget would be shot to pieces. There are many arguments that can be made in favour of Rafale _(others do, I don't think it's a good choice at this price)_ but the one you made is unlikely to fly very high.


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## Somras

cerberus said:


> Look Im one of those who always favor indigenous over foreign tech but realistically we are no where near to manufacture fighter like rafale Indigenously altleast in this decade.Our squadrons strength is falling day by day our Pilots are obliged to fly 50 year old fighters which has killed many pilots so it's best we go for best and suitable option available for them .saving fews bucks over lives of our Soilders is not very suitable choice . Rafale is best choice it's also negate are dependency on Russian tech which also available to chinese.




rafel will give us 126 fighters = 126/18 = 7 squadrans over 13 years 
the alternative 

1 Rafale = 1 su30mki + 2 LCa 

=126 su30Mki + 252 LCa over 10 or less years 
= 378/18 = 21 Squadrons 

make your choice 

also for routine tasks like barcap etc patrolling point defence LCA can perform more than adequately 

also there are some 240 mig 21 which will be easily replcaed by LCA 

why do you need to Replace mig 21 - single engine low cost , low operating cost, low maintenance costs point defence interceptor fighter with 

Rafale a twin engine, high costs, high operating costs, high maintenence costs multirole fighter 

when Mig 21 can be easily replcaed with LCA single engine, low cost, low operating costs, low maintenace costs multirole fighter 

also today even our enemies dont have AESA - which LCA will have in Mk2 

LCA can easily faceoff JF17, Mirage III/V on the western border along with some su30MKI rest of the Su30MKi can be placed on eastern/northern Border in swing roles/deployments due to longer range 

why do we need rafale?

we DONT NEED RAFALE today 

in 2001 - 2005 period it was a different issue 

Su30MKI had not evolved now we have better option


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## PARIKRAMA

LCA is still dreams away from becoming a potent realistic weapon. We may be gung ho on our own domestic platforms but realistically LCA (Even 2 in nos with different combinations mk1 mk2) + MKI does not make us any better as compared to 1 rafale. The argument of having superior numbers is good no doubt but potency of a platform is not judged by just numbers alone. 

An example is the roles that are assigned to such aircrafts. LCA can and will be used to protect India's vital air corridor upto 750-1000 kms from its base of operations. All this without extra Drop tank and arming with max missile and ammunition. Officially MK1 can do 750 kms as per SP1 configuration and i believe MK2 is being tasked to increase it to 1000 Kms. Su30 MKI same stats is upto 3000 kms without mid air refuelling and drop tanks. Its true LCA is dirt cheap. but the missions which can be assigned to LCA (present MK1 and proposed MK2) seems to be limited as their specific role and capabilities are also limited . if we do develop and make it more potent with integration of latest technologies then yes there is a scope of wider mission capabilities in future. But whats the realistic time frame for such a capability to come in. to my own estimate around 2028-2030 for LCA MK2 to be a matured enough platform to do what a gen 4 or 4.5++ could accomplish. This is where the next 15-20 years the gap is suppose to be there. and on top we have to retire our ageing fleet who have already stretched much beyond limits with our upgrades and excellent pilots skills whom we cant afford to lose and are far more valuable. this gap is not possible to filled with FGFA which again is on paper as of now (dont quote PAKFA as India specifications are not met by PAKFA heck we dont even know if india has access to Pakfa so realistically even pakfa is 2025++ for us) and will be assigned a different role and class . FGFA is heavy class and rafale is medium (on weight)

The reality is that Indian programs like LCA had been and is still a slow program. We were not able to foresight the need of a medium range platform in 90s and hence we never had any program domestically for that. As LCA was still in building blocks, the medium weight category was never thought of domestically. Another good example is AMCA . If we were so serious then whats the state of AMCA? whats the time line there?. 

We can state whatever we want in pro and con of the deal argument. Unfortunately since we did not foresee, invest enough in our own defense industry and get credible results, we have to depend on platforms which may seem a bit costly as compared to any cheap indigenous or semi ingenious production.

India does not have a choice. It needs Rafale. France does not have a choice. It needs Rafale orders beyond its force requirement to keep its manufacturing lines going and to fund future upgrades. Its a need for both. Whatever the deal cost is, which i am sure that it is still being not divulged in public domain and all journos are just giving brain fart figure, the deal should help us with enough TOT to make our own industry mature. If we succeed that then yes, we could then be self reliant on our homegrown jets in future. Till then we have to shop abroad.


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## sancho

Somras said:


> you mean to say a single rafale can replace 2 LCA + 1 Su30MKI?



No, but that 2 LCAs + 1 Su 30 can't replace Rafale in deep strikes with cruise missiles, by the simple fact that LCA is not even close to be as capable as Rafale in performance, weapon carrying capability or range and that even the MKI won't be fit for this role until Brahmos is ready. So the unit cost is totally unimportant for the operational worth of the fighter in IAF, just as it is totally unimportant for the benefits we want for our industry with the M-MRCA. As long as you keep ignoring what actually is important in this competition, you will keep getting the wrong conclusions.

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## sancho

MokshaVimukthi said:


> ANY purchase is first and foremost weighted against cost benefit ratio.



Nonsense! Any purchase first and foremost weighted against the *requirements* you have! If you want an Ipad because it's easier to conect with your Iphone, you won't by a Samsung Tablet only because it's cheaper. Similarly, we have operational requirements (set by IAF) and industrial requirements (set by MoD/GoI) , which needs to be fulfilled in the first place. That's why we asked vendors for proposals, based on the *requirements* we set up and didn't asked just for a price and choose the cheapest. After evaluating all fighters against these *requirements*, the 2 that suit them the most were shortlisted and only then the cost came into the game and the "offer" that were overall the cheapest was selected!

That's the reality in M-MRCA!

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## sancho

halloweene said:


> TY Sancho, i'm in contact with Scorpion and his explanations help a lot. but SRP14 Step1 is sensed to be P2Ea, and Step2 PE2b. Maybe they switched Meteor integration from P2Eb to P2Ea, or the capability will be tested before but the induction in forces will go with P2Eb



Yes he knows pretty much about the EF, for me all these codes shows what's wrong with the EF, too complicated. Tranches, Blocks, SRPs and even within them splits into A and B...
That's why I only focus on the actual timelines for the upgrades (which alone is though, since the EF program is slow and timelines are alwas slipping) and they are actually consistent, with METEOR integration only expected for 2016.
However, more than Storm Shadow and METEOR my interest is on Brimstone and SPEAR 3 and I guess the end of the year could bring some changes of their time lines.



PARIKRAMA said:


> LCA is still dreams away from becoming a potent realistic weapon.



The problem is not that it's not potent enough, in fact even LCA MK1 will be very potent and a good contribution to IAFs operational lo end. The real problem is the public perception that LCA is something special, only because it's an indigenous development!
But being indigenous doesn't make it more capable than Rafale, nor that it complies to M-MRCA operational requirements (not even basic once like AESA radar, G-limit, TWR, induction by 2015/16...). So no matter how cheap it can be, it doesn't offer what we want.
It will be good for what it was aimed to, basic interception and CAS roles, setting up basic indigenous aero industry, gaining know how and experience in fighter design and developments. But none of this is important for the M-MRCA.


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## PARIKRAMA

Precisely thats what i had tried to explain. We are trying to compare LCA and make it sound like the very best in everything. We should realise what its aimed for. Its a replacement for our Low end awesome jets like Mig 21. Doing so, we hope that our industry would take into a good shape and help us build more things with know how and experience.

Rafale need is very much there in IAF and TOT will help our industry too. But i also feel that too many journos and paid publications quoting absurd deal figures is running a vendetta against it. When the deal is signed we all would know the price and the package and the add ons. So why we all hate or spew venom against good platform just based on half baked stories.

lets quote an example. We all have grounded Su30 MKI now perhaps the 3rd time since we had 5 crashes in last 5-6 years. So does it mean its a dud aircraft? or take it back a bit more.. was Mig21 was really a flying coffin.. the fact was mig 21 was and is a difficult flying machine and is perhaps the only one whom hardcore pilots say is very agile and capable. but its also an unforgiving type machine where a single error makes it go topsy turvy.. Yet Media and print spun a story which made all people feel its the worst and everytime one flies he is surely gng to die and a mother will lose a son and nation a pilot.

Lastly everyone should also realise that 6 jets were there in MMRCA and finally rafale was L1 beating everybody else. So what can you say? was tests a dud... if we want a bird which meets IAF requirement and we cant produce such machines domestically then we should be in a manner ready to pay the price quoted. We can negotiate bargain and get goodies but lets not live in a dream and say my TATA Nano is as good as Honda City or a Mercedes benz or a BMW or Audi.. (Even though there are better Ferraris, Mclarens and high end cars also there which i have not listed.)

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## Kloitra

sancho said:


> No, but that 2 LCAs + 1 Su 30 can't replace Rafale in deep strikes with cruise missiles, by the simple fact that LCA is not even close to be as capable as Rafale in performance, weapon carrying capability or range and that even the MKI won't be fit for this role until Brahmos is ready. So the unit cost is totally unimportant for the operational worth of the fighter in IAF, just as it is totally unimportant for the benefits we want for our industry with the M-MRCA. As long as you keep ignoring what actually is important in this competition, you will keep getting the wrong conclusions.



Is Mki as capable as Rafale for SEAD missions?


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## sancho

Kloitra said:


> Is Mki as capable as Rafale for SEAD missions?



They do it differently, the Russian fighters attack radars with anti radiation missiles, while Rafale targets the radar and the SAMs at once with AASM. The detection capabilities of Rafale against ground radars should be better though.

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## MokshaVimukthi

sancho said:


> Nonsense! Any purchase first and foremost weighted against the *requirements* you have! If you want an Ipad because it's easier to conect with your Iphone, you won't by a Samsung Tablet only because it's cheaper. Similarly, we have operational requirements (set by IAF) and industrial requirements (set by MoD/GoI) , which needs to be fulfilled in the first place. That's why we asked vendors for proposals, based on the *requirements* we set up and didn't asked just for a price and choose the cheapest. After evaluating all fighters against these *requirements*, the 2 that suit them the most were shortlisted and only then the cost came into the game and the "offer" that were overall the cheapest was selected!
> 
> That's the reality in M-MRCA!



LOL. When you grow older you will understand that when the enemy introduces a lower cost of waging war while extracting a higher cost from us, it gives birth to "*requirements*". "Cost" is the Father of "requirements".


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## Storm Force

Can somebody plz confirm what is the likely realistically date when this deal may actuallybe signed finally


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## Taygibay

December 13 for 13.13 Billion and India gets a free nuclear plant and Versailles as signing bonuses!



Good day all, Tay.


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## Trawllu

sancho said:


> No, but that 2 LCAs + 1 Su 30 can't replace Rafale in deep strikes with cruise missiles, by the simple fact that LCA is not even close to be as capable as Rafale in performance, weapon carrying capability or range and that even the MKI won't be fit for this role until Brahmos is ready. So the unit cost is totally unimportant for the operational worth of the fighter in IAF, just as it is totally unimportant for the benefits we want for our industry with the M-MRCA. As long as you keep ignoring what actually is important in this competition, you will keep getting the wrong conclusions.




brahmos will be ready by 2019 the 1st raale wont arive beofre 2018 - how much time it will take IAF to evolve operational doctrines around rafale ?

even on this count Su30 Comes out on top 

IF we have 2 LCA it will l;essen need of Su30 on many fronts 

so they are free for more deeper strike missions 

on PAK front how much Deep strike do you envisage anything more than 1000 Kms and we will be bombing Iran/ Afghanistan



PARIKRAMA said:


> LCA is still dreams away from becoming a potent realistic weapon. We may be gung ho on our own domestic platforms but realistically LCA (Even 2 in nos with different combinations mk1 mk2) + MKI does not make us any better as compared to 1 rafale. The argument of having superior numbers is good no doubt but potency of a platform is not judged by just numbers alone.
> 
> An example is the roles that are assigned to such aircrafts. LCA can and will be used to protect India's vital air corridor upto 750-1000 kms from its base of operations. All this without extra Drop tank and arming with max missile and ammunition. Officially MK1 can do 750 kms as per SP1 configuration and i believe MK2 is being tasked to increase it to 1000 Kms. Su30 MKI same stats is upto 3000 kms without mid air refuelling and drop tanks. Its true LCA is dirt cheap. but the missions which can be assigned to LCA (present MK1 and proposed MK2) seems to be limited as their specific role and capabilities are also limited . if we do develop and make it more potent with integration of latest technologies then yes there is a scope of wider mission capabilities in future. But whats the realistic time frame for such a capability to come in. to my own estimate around 2028-2030 for LCA MK2 to be a matured enough platform to do what a gen 4 or 4.5++ could accomplish. This is where the next 15-20 years the gap is suppose to be there. and on top we have to retire our ageing fleet who have already stretched much beyond limits with our upgrades and excellent pilots skills whom we cant afford to lose and are far more valuable. this gap is not possible to filled with FGFA which again is on paper as of now (dont quote PAKFA as India specifications are not met by PAKFA heck we dont even know if india has access to Pakfa so realistically even pakfa is 2025++ for us) and will be assigned a different role and class . FGFA is heavy class and rafale is medium (on weight)
> 
> The reality is that Indian programs like LCA had been and is still a slow program. We were not able to foresight the need of a medium range platform in 90s and hence we never had any program domestically for that. As LCA was still in building blocks, the medium weight category was never thought of domestically. Another good example is AMCA . If we were so serious then whats the state of AMCA? whats the time line there?.
> 
> We can state whatever we want in pro and con of the deal argument. Unfortunately since we did not foresee, invest enough in our own defense industry and get credible results, we have to depend on platforms which may seem a bit costly as compared to any cheap indigenous or semi ingenious production.
> 
> India does not have a choice. It needs Rafale. France does not have a choice. It needs Rafale orders beyond its force requirement to keep its manufacturing lines going and to fund future upgrades. Its a need for both. Whatever the deal cost is, which i am sure that it is still being not divulged in public domain and all journos are just giving brain fart figure, the deal should help us with enough TOT to make our own industry mature. If we succeed that then yes, we could then be self reliant on our homegrown jets in future. Till then we have to shop abroad.




can you name some missions which LCA cant perform ?

can you tell me how much time it takes to integrte new weapons with LCA platform ?
(in kargil we did it overnight - israeli pods, ammo with Mirage 2000 source code all ) we did it in less than 20 days 

so you are telling me for our own LCA we cant do it in 2-3 years ?

are you sure ?


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## Trawllu

PARIKRAMA said:


> Precisely thats what i had tried to explain. We are trying to compare LCA and make it sound like the very best in everything. We should realise what its aimed for. Its a replacement for our Low end awesome jets like Mig 21. Doing so, we hope that our industry would take into a good shape and help us build more things with know how and experience.
> 
> Rafale need is very much there in IAF and TOT will help our industry too. But i also feel that too many journos and paid publications quoting absurd deal figures is running a vendetta against it. When the deal is signed we all would know the price and the package and the add ons. So why we all hate or spew venom against good platform just based on half baked stories.
> 
> lets quote an example. We all have grounded Su30 MKI now perhaps the 3rd time since we had 5 crashes in last 5-6 years. So does it mean its a dud aircraft? or take it back a bit more.. was Mig21 was really a flying coffin.. the fact was mig 21 was and is a difficult flying machine and is perhaps the only one whom hardcore pilots say is very agile and capable. but its also an unforgiving type machine where a single error makes it go topsy turvy.. Yet Media and print spun a story which made all people feel its the worst and everytime one flies he is surely gng to die and a mother will lose a son and nation a pilot.
> 
> Lastly everyone should also realise that 6 jets were there in MMRCA and finally rafale was L1 beating everybody else. So what can you say? was tests a dud... if we want a bird which meets IAF requirement and we cant produce such machines domestically then we should be in a manner ready to pay the price quoted. We can negotiate bargain and get goodies but lets not live in a dream and say my TATA Nano is as good as Honda City or a Mercedes benz or a BMW or Audi.. (Even though there are better Ferraris, Mclarens and high end cars also there which i have not listed.)





sancho said:


> Yes he knows pretty much about the EF, for me all these codes shows what's wrong with the EF, too complicated. Tranches, Blocks, SRPs and even within them splits into A and B...
> That's why I only focus on the actual timelines for the upgrades (which alone is though, since the EF program is slow and timelines are alwas slipping) and they are actually consistent, with METEOR integration only expected for 2016.
> However, more than Storm Shadow and METEOR my interest is on Brimstone and SPEAR 3 and I guess the end of the year could bring some changes of their time lines.
> 
> 
> 
> The problem is not that it's not potent enough, in fact even LCA MK1 will be very potent and a good contribution to IAFs operational lo end. The real problem is the public perception that LCA is something special, only because it's an indigenous development!
> But being indigenous doesn't make it more capable than Rafale, nor that it complies to M-MRCA operational requirements (not even basic once like AESA radar, G-limit, TWR, induction by 2015/16...). So no matter how cheap it can be, it doesn't offer what we want.
> It will be good for what it was aimed to, basic interception and CAS roles, setting up basic indigenous aero industry, gaining know how and experience in fighter design and developments. But none of this is important for the M-MRCA.




both of you guys are fixated on Rafale and getting it wrong 

LCA is not replacement for Rafale 

Su30 MKi is replacement for Rafale 

now tell me is Rafale superior to Rafale 


LCA is to be used to ramp up nos and to lower costs (operational) of IAF and to pick up roles like point defence, air interceptions (which would be done by Rafale if Rafale is acquired)
and to free up SU30MKi

for AIR Dominance / Air Superiority, Deep strike roles 

if we go for rafale 

We will have 272 Su30MKi + 126 Rafale 

if we ditch rafale we can have 

272 +126 = 398 Su MKI and 
252 LCA s

now tell what is better 

on one hand IAF is crying for fflling sqn strenght 

the best way to increase the SQN Strenght and capability is to DITCH RAFALE

buy 126 Su30MKi + 252 LCAs


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## halloweene

You don't get the point. i don't like to enter those dick size contests, but atm yes, Rafale is a superior plane to MKI. Mostly because of its avionics integration which is a generation ahead. Also because its RCS is orders of magnitude lower. Nuke delivery ready. Follow ground dual mode (numeric maps + radar) etc. All in all a more modern plane.
Super sukhoi will partially fill the gap, keep in mind Rafale is also constantly evolving.

But that is not so important. Will super Sukhoi be a better Air dominance in certain environments (with AWACS etc.)? Surely .

The important part is which missions are they aimed to for india?
Sukhoi is definitely not the right beast for example for deep low penetration strike. But it will be an awesome air to air platform.

Comparing apples and oranges...

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## sancho

> ...*Tranche 2, Phase 1 Enhancements (P1E)*. Requires Tranche 2 aircraft; the RAF ordered 67 of those. implements full Air-to-Surface capability, with Helmet Mounted Sight System (HMSS) upgrades for ground attack use, Improved Direct Voice Input for pilots includes prioritization of ground targets, New radar modes, Full integration of the LITENING-III surveillance and targeting pod, Full smart bomb integration (Paveway laser-guided, and dual-mode laser/GPS Paveway IV or EGBU-16 bombs), Mode 5 Identification Friend or Foe, Improved MIDS (Link 16) and radios, Digital integration of Short Range Air-to-Air Missiles (full IRIS-T integration with HMSS for high off-boresight shots, allows future AIM-9X integration), and Praetorian DASS defensive suite upgrades. All of these enhancements will come factory-installed in Tranche 3 aircraft.
> 
> BAE is part-way through P1E upgrades, but they’re considered to be tested and qualified. Eurofighter partner nations will be eligible to begin installing P1E enhancement packages starting in 2015, and all of these improvements come standard in Tranche 3 aircraft.
> 
> *Phase 2 Enhancements (P2E).* Tranche 3 aircraft have begun delivery, and the RAF has ordered 40, but they will need added upgrades alongside the Tranche 2s. At present, the confirmed P2E enhancements are all weapons, because the Captor-E AESA radar contract remains unsigned.
> 
> P2Ea expects to add MBDA’s Storm Shadow stealthy medium-range cruise missile by the end of 2015, thanks to Middle Eastern financing. Italian tests have reportedly occurred with MBDA’s Marte Mk.2/S light anti-ship missile, but the timeline for integration has been vague.
> 
> For P2Eb, MBDA’s Meteor long range air-to-air missile won’t be integrated until 2017, and that upgrade stage would presumably include the Captor-E AESA radar as well. If Italy pushes ahead with Marte Mk.2/S integration but can’t make P2Ea, it would also happen here. Ongoing Praetorian DASS enhancements must be expected as well, along with incremental electronics improvements.
> 
> *Phase 3 Enhancements (P3E).* P3E is still in the study phase, but the UK is expected to issue a 2015 contract to integrate MBDA’s Brimstone radar/laser light strike missile. It’s being talked about as a P3E effort, for fielding by 2018, but its usefulness against the most frequent targets of British air campaigns could see it added sooner as an Urgent Operational Requirement.
> 
> The ability of Tranche 3 Typhoons to accommodate dorsal conformal fuel tanks may be very attractive to partner nations like Britain, who are buying a much more limited set of Tranche 3 fighters than expected.
> 
> Beyond that, the big questions for P2E and beyond involve weapons. Storm Shadow’s integration already includes flights and tests with Taurus’ KEPD 350 stealthy medium-range cruise missile, and KEPD 350 customers like Germany and Spain could decide to add it, if they ever find the funds. Since their Tornados and F/A-18 Hornets can’t serve forever, at some point they must add it or lose that aerial capability. Full-range anti-ship missiles and anti-radar missiles are also notable weaknesses in the Eurofighter’s arsenal, especially from Britain’s perspective, and new weapons like MBDA UK’s SPEAR 3 medium-range strike missile will be entering the picture.



UK’s Eurofighters Fly To Availability-Based Contracting


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## halloweene

Marte is scheduled for P3E. But Brimstone 2 slipped to P2Eb afaik. Thanx for help. Did you read the first part of the article in our blog?
If you did could you borowse it and say if it deserves the heavy work to make an english version?

You'll be interested in that news anw... (about FCAS)

le portail des passionnés de l'aviation: Drone de combat FCAS : signatures de contrats le 5 novembre

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## sancho

halloweene said:


> Marte is scheduled for P3E. But Brimstone 2 slipped to P2Eb afaik. Thanx for help. Did you read the first part of the article in our blog?
> If you did could you borowse it and say if it deserves the heavy work to make an english version?
> 
> You'll be interested in that news anw... (about FCAS)
> 
> le portail des passionnés de l'aviation: Drone de combat FCAS : signatures de contrats le 5 novembre



Will definitely read it later. I think Matre is dependent on which anti ship missile will be integrated or? Harpoon and Brimstone varients and maybe even NSM might be options too (the latter especially for UK and ITA since it should be integrated into F35). Otherwise the maritim attack role seems to be more interesting for export customers like Saudi Arabia or possibly Qatar as reported.


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## halloweene

Definitely. Marte missile is what is commonly heard from the horse mouth, but no clue. Air to Sea iimplementation is a big radar software challenge.


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## sancho

@halloweene 

Nice article and you definitely should do an english version, especially of the second part that explains the differences in the blocks, tranches... As you said, it's a complex matter and you could create a nice reference here in english and available in the public media. 
The first part of the article is a bit too negative though, you point to production problems of a certain company, or spare procurement problems of certain forces, but both are not really quality problems of the fighter itself. Just as the extended use of Tornados is based on the fact that they can use Brimstone and not because the EF isn't capable enough to do CAS in general. 
It might had been better to point to the range limits of the EF with a single fuel tank and 2 x cruise missiles (most likely funded with Saudi support), or that the partner countries still haven't decided about a fully fledged AESA development, to point out the real shortcomings of the fighter. 

Wrt FCAS, very interesting! Imo the new Franco-British defence relations will definitely boost Europes defence capability, simply by the fact that old nationalistic ego problems between both countries seems to be gone and now both sides focus on the common areas. Dassaults move towards BAE was a very smart one, which poses a counterweight to Airbus and since France gets an alternative industrial option (independent from Germany and their interests), this new formation will get good government support too.
The problems in European defence developments are still the old habits to see each partner country as equal or important and to focus too much on national interests and varients. That's why the EF program has so many different leading partners, different prototype testing and production parts and if France wouldn't had backed out of the program for exactly these issues, it would had been even more complicated. It is simply not easy to join defence interests, or political and economical importance in such programs, unless there is at least 1 clear leader. That's what works better in the F35 program, where the US is the clear leader that provides partners with some workshare, but keeps decision making in house. The nEUROn development is similar, where Dassault is the key driver, while other European partners have supporting roles. If FCAS is lead by France and UK (Dassault and BAE) and just supported by other partners, it could have good potential, but then again a UCAV for Europe will not be a large number program and especially Germany will not be too interested in joining a development of an armed version. However, for Europes future combat capability, an armed UCAV is a must have and France as well as the UK must focus on their interests here.



halloweene said:


> Definitely. Marte missile is what is commonly heard from the horse mouth, but no clue. Air to Sea iimplementation is a big radar software challenge.



Any news on Qatari requirements for Rafale wrt maritime attack capabilities? Are they using Exocet currently, or do they want other missiles if Rafale would be selected?


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## halloweene

I will definitely change the first part if i write an "international version" 
About Qatar, no clue, sorry. There were persistent rumours recently about Egypt btw... But thses are just rumours.


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## sancho

halloweene said:


> I will definitely change the first part if i write an "international version"



Hehe, will be funny to see the reaction of the EF fans on that part.



halloweene said:


> There were persistent rumours recently about Egypt btw... But thses are just rumours.



On Rafale or buying UAEs M2K9s?


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## Taygibay

Rafales, a squadron's worth 3 years ago right before the Arab Spring.

Global Army Review: And if Egypt was the first country customer Rafale ...

Good day all, Tay.


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## DrSomnath999

*Twelve AASM bombs to destroy "a complex Daech*







Here is the statement from the EMA on the raid against two _Rafale_ "complex Daech for both manufacturing plant bombs and center of recruitment, training and terrorist training"

On the evening of October 23, 2014, the force _Shamal_ participated in an air raid by coalition against a complex logistics Daech south of Mosul, in the Kirkuk area. The information collected by the coalition since the beginning of the operation helped to plan a bombing mission against a strategic site of the terrorist organization Al Hawijah area, 250 km north of Baghdad. 
At about 20:30 pm (Paris), a patrol _Rafale,_ each armed with six AASM bombs (1) and equipped with _Damocles_ pod, issued twelve AASM (modular air-to-ground weapons) on the lens. This air raid which involved our allies helped to destroy a complex Daech for both manufacturing plant bombs and center of recruitment, education and training terrorists. This was complemented by simultaneous strikes our allies on two other strategic sites Daech, carrying a heavy blow to their logistics.
Google Translate

*so First use of AASM in iraq*


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## DrSomnath999

*Air&Cosmos 2426 *











Courtesy-olybrius
Thank you for the info mate


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## sancho

Taygibay said:


> Rafales, a squadron's worth 3 years ago right before the Arab Spring.
> 
> Global Army Review: And if Egypt was the first country customer Rafale ...
> 
> Good day all, Tay.



Long time ago, in the mean time nearly anything was speculated, F16s F18SHs Mig 29 and 35, as well as Gripen, JF 17 and J10.


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## Taygibay

*^^^* Entirely agreed but this was a solicitation so that the interest was sincere even if Egypt is a bit all over the map in mili procurement and came before the line of credit opened by Saudi Arabia with recommendation to buy French post-anti-Morsi "coup".

But yes, by now meaningless as Rafale export plans are concerned unless reiterated.
History tidbit.

Good day all, Tay.


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## halloweene

> *UAE, Egypt, Rafale and Mirage 2000-9s (35 credits)*
> *Posted on: Thu, Oct 23, 2014*
> Crown Prince of Abu Dhabi and Deputy Commander of the UAE Armed Forces General Sheikh Mohammad Bin Zayed Al Nahyan is said to have sent a delegate to Egypt to meet with Egyptian Defence Minister General Sidqi Sobhi on the Emirati Mirage 2000-9s and Egyptian plans to buy the Rafale. The following 428-word report sheds light on the meeting and tells what about the outcome. [Partly reproduced in Tactical Weekly (Issue No 21/43 – October 24, 2014)]


Considering it is coming from tactical reports (and a similar "agency") in Egypt, to me it is just rumours. Th egyptian also talked about SU-35.


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## DrSomnath999

* An old article but great info about GaN T/R modules & AESA radar ofcourse relating to EUROPE  *

*RADAR REVOLUTION*


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## sancho

halloweene said:


> Considering it is coming from tactical reports (and a similar "agency") in Egypt, to me it is just rumours. Th egyptian also talked about SU-35.



Not to mention that a lot of politics will play a role there. The US are desperate to retain control, the Russians to gain more, China to get a hold in the area and the Israelis surely won't be happy with Rafales that can be used against them, while UAE would be a political asset for France/Dassault to sell the M2K9s.


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## Jayanta

By the time India finally completes the deal, and the last Rafale is inducted into the IAF.....it would be an obsolete fighter.


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## sancho

Jayanta said:


> By the time India finally completes the deal, and the last Rafale is inducted into the IAF.....it would be an obsolete fighter.



Not possible, since the 2 fighters we shortlisted are the most modern and with the most future potential. Not to mention that we hopefully will integrate some customizations to further improve capabilities. In fact, any of the 2 will be the backbone of IAF in future, replacing MKI on many missions, because they are more cost-effective to operate or offer technical advantages, while being the perfect counterpart to the FGFA as well. With FGFA and AURA at the top end but in specific roles and with less amounts of flying hours, we need a capable 4.5th gen fighter for the bulk of the operations.


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## Cat Shannon

Jayanta said:


> By the time India finally completes the deal, and the last Rafale is inducted into the IAF.....it would be an obsolete fighter.



it will be better to have rafale as a bison compared to having mig21s as bisons.

if you know what i mean. look at m2ks.


----------



## sancho

> *MoD to speed up Typhoon upgrade for Iraq campaign*
> 
> The Ministry of Defence wants to speed up putting precision-guided Brimstone missiles on RAF Typhoon jets because the campaign against Isil has exposed Britain's shortage of ground attack jets
> 
> ...The MoD is now in talks to speed up the upgrade, but defence analysts say it could still be 2017 before the Typhoons are ready...



MoD to speed up Typhoon upgrade for Iraq campaign - Telegraph


----------



## subincb

Oct 1 news but cant find it anywhere. sorry if posted earlier
* 
HAL Carries-out Maiden flight of LCA –Tejas Series Production *









* Bangalore, October 01, 2014: *

First of the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas built to series production standard successfully completed its maiden flight, piloted by Air CmdeK.A. Muthana, (Retd) Chief Test Flying, HAL here yesterday evening. “This could be achieved within nine months after receiving the IOC certification in December 2013 and within one year after receiving the build standard documents”, said Dr. R.K. Tyagi, Chairman, HAL. “The aircraft is now ready for IAF operations”, he added. Dr.Tyagi also congratulated HAL engineers, technicians and other staff involved in this project. The other series aircraft are in various stages of “build” in the fully equipped production line at HAL factory at Bangalore. 

The Contract for delivery of aircraft was signed in 2006 for first 20 LCA Tejas aircraft in IOC configuration. The build standard documents for IOC aircraft were finalised in September 2013 and Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) was accorded in December 2013. 

HAL faced many technological challenges in the making of LCA that included sanctions on import of carbon fibre, establishing the entire tooling and manufacturing capability by in-house design of tooling and test equipments and incorporation of world class manufacturing standards. Inspection devices such as laser trackers tolerancing to the tune of 0.08 mm for inter changeability features and 0.2 mm for contours were used to achieve these standards.


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## halloweene

Thalès picture about Talios pod. Interstin features like laser 3D imagery etc.
Pilot will be able to read images and superimpose them to maps while the po will keep acquiring.
Capability to detect human movements
AND long range identification and tracking of planes.

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## halloweene

Sancho, here is part 2 article about Typhoon

le portail des passionnés de l'aviation: Le programme Eurofighter ou la complexité des programmes internationaux Partie 2 : progression et évolutions

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## DrSomnath999

Yves
did posted my views there

merci

*CHEERS*


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## C130

DrSomnath999 said:


> *Twelve AASM bombs to destroy "a complex Daech*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is the statement from the EMA on the raid against two _Rafale_ "complex Daech for both manufacturing plant bombs and center of recruitment, training and terrorist training"
> 
> On the evening of October 23, 2014, the force _Shamal_ participated in an air raid by coalition against a complex logistics Daech south of Mosul, in the Kirkuk area. The information collected by the coalition since the beginning of the operation helped to plan a bombing mission against a strategic site of the terrorist organization Al Hawijah area, 250 km north of Baghdad.
> At about 20:30 pm (Paris), a patrol _Rafale,_ each armed with six AASM bombs (1) and equipped with _Damocles_ pod, issued twelve AASM (modular air-to-ground weapons) on the lens. This air raid which involved our allies helped to destroy a complex Daech for both manufacturing plant bombs and center of recruitment, education and training terrorists. This was complemented by simultaneous strikes our allies on two other strategic sites Daech, carrying a heavy blow to their logistics.
> Google Translate
> 
> *so First use of AASM in iraq*



I am quite interested in AASM(Hammer) at first I thought it was a very expensive version of the JDAM, but it's true value is for SEADs is undeniable compared to the AGM-130 it's 1/4th the cost with about the same range





it's also lighter so you can carry more and less chance of collateral damage.


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## sancho

halloweene said:


> Sancho, here is part 2 article about Typhoon
> 
> le portail des passionnés de l'aviation: Le programme Eurofighter ou la complexité des programmes internationaux Partie 2 : progression et évolutions



Great job man, would love to see an english version posted here or even published in the media! 


Besides that, what's the reaction from Dassault about the details of the Gripen deal in Brazil now? Around $145 millions each was even the estimated price for Rafale there and if I remember correctly, Dassault offered that more Rafales of the 36 order would be build fully in Brazil than the 15 Gripen now, but correct me if I'm wrong.



C130 said:


> I am quite interested in AASM(Hammer) at first I thought it was a very expensive version of the JDAM, but it's true value is for SEADs is undeniable compared to the AGM-130 it's 1/4th the cost with about the same range
> 
> it's also lighter so you can carry more and less chance of collateral damage.



True, but Sagem / MBDA sadly missed it's potential and upgraded it the wrong way. The advantages in SEAD and higher weapon loads are gone even today, with the arrival of SDB and coming counterparts like SPICE 250 and SPEAR 3. All of them offer more range, more load and partially even more capabilities, at lower costs.


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## DrSomnath999

*The Rafale F3.4 + experienced in Istres*

Title F3.4 +, this new standard Rafale, being developed by the industry under the responsibility of the Directorate General of Armaments (DGA), is part of the continuous improvement of the weapon system. It takes into account the feedback from the business and the continued strengthening of the flight safety. Experts and EIEV EHIC form the core of the first users and accompany the deployment of the new system. _"For two weeks we conducted a flight test campaign,_ said Captain Matthew Rigg, commander of the antenna brand team Rafale EIEV. _The device will then be deployed in final testing phase in Mont -of-Marsan before operational implementation._ "






The F3.4 + version includes many software developments, for example, improving the capture and conversion of geographical coordinates standard NATO (MGRS format) which will be a very significant time savings for crews. In the area of security, a new reticle "attitude" will allow pilots to better understand delusions and warned of an unusual position. In addition, taking off, an alarm will not exceed the maximum acceptable power by the brakes of the aircraft, which is a valuable aid in the management of interruption at takeoff. Finally, "in the field of tracking field, F3.4 + offers a new real-time control for transitions between radar mode and digital file," says Commander Rigg.

Throughout the assessment, representing a twenty-hour flight, the pilots of the EHIC EIEV and have attempted to define the boundaries of employment areas of the system before writing the instructions for use operational. The new standard F3.4 + Rafale should be deployed in early 2015 forces.

Google Translate

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## halloweene

SDB and SPEAR have lighter explosive charge. They should better be compared to AASM 125. Remember Sancho, AASM is evolving towards a GPS/INS/IR/laser version. and it can be shot to any direction (which is not true for gliding bombs).
Thx Dr and Sancho, read your comments. Generally speaking, we are reaching around 100 000 views per month so we will very soon build a site instead of a siimle blog. I would be grateful if you could browse the blog and tell me if it deserves an international version (not only the EFT article), because it is qui a lot of work (translations).
Fundamentally the question is ; if most relevant articles were translated in english, would you regularly go to see our site?

Thank you for your help!

PS for Typhoon article i received tons of help from Scorpion.

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## sancho

halloweene said:


> SDB and SPEAR have lighter explosive charge. They should better be compared to AASM 125. Remember Sancho, AASM is evolving towards a GPS/INS/IR/laser version. and it can be shot to any direction (which is not true for gliding bombs).



But still will be used in the same CAS or SEAD roles, the lighter warhead doesn't change that, infact even Sagem / MBDA aims on improved capabilities of the AASM 125 in these roles, compared to the AAS250. However, compared to the SDB and Co class, it simply falls short in performance, since it's the same AASM kit with just a lighter warhead, while SDB and Co are newly designed for improved capability and not simple upgrades of JDAM or SPICE 2000/1000.
AASM improvements are only aimed on the seeker and that's the crucial point, since it doesn't add to range or more load capability. A Mirage 2000s with full MICA load, will still be able to carry 2 x AASM 250 or 125, while it also should be able to carry an SDB / SPICE 250 quad pack.
True, AASM has the advantage of the propulsion, but firstly SPEAR 3 comes with the same capabilty + wings (SPICE 250 might add it later, reportedly if customer demands it), secondly, the propulsion is also a burden since it adds far more costs than a wing kit and since most strikes today are done at high altitudes, a cost-effective wingkit would had been far better as an upgrade for AASM 125, while the propulsion kit could had been remained optional, which it is anyway.




halloweene said:


> Thx Dr and Sancho, read your comments. Generally speaking, we are reaching around 100 000 views per month so we will very soon build a site instead of a siimle blog. I would be grateful if you could browse the blog and tell me if it deserves an international version (not only the EFT article), because it is qui a lot of work (translations).
> Fundamentally the question is ; if most relevant articles were translated in english, would you regularly go to see our site?
> 
> Thank you for your help!
> 
> PS for Typhoon article i received tons of help from Scorpion.



I have bookmarked the blog some times ago and am visiting it every now and then, not only because of Rafale or in this case EF, but since I am generally interested about European developments too and I surely will continue with it. But I don't like using the google translator all the time, which is why an international version would be highly appreciated!

P.S. Maybe you get Scorpion to join you on articles about EF, which would be great, once because he has good knowledge of the fighter and I think of German Luftwaffe. Secondly, because it would broaden the scope of the blog / site, by not being French / Dassault / Rafale specific.


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## sancho

> *Snecma settled permanently in India for its military reactors *
> 
> The French engine manufacturer Snecma (Safran group) has partnered with the maintenance company Max AeroSpace & Aviation India Pvt. Ltd. to create a joint venture dedicated to the MRO of military engines.
> 
> Max called Aero Engines Private Limited (MAEPL), this new structure will include full support for M53-P2 engines that propel the Mirage 2000H and 2000th _"Vajra"_ of the Indian Air Force (IAF). After modernization 'extends until 2021, the Indian Mirage 2000 should remain in service beyond the year 2030.
> 
> Reactors produced by Snecma are present and maintained in India for over 60 years with the operator of Toofani (Indian version of the Hurricane), Mystère IV A, then Shamsher (Indian version of Jaguar SEPECAT).
> 
> This tradition could soon be extended to Snecma M88 engines that powers the multi-role fighter Rafale of Dassault Aviation. The French manufacturer had indeed won the tender MMRCA contract in January 2012 and its conclusion is expected shortly. The IAF should acquire 126 Rafale M88 or 252 reactors (excluding spare engines).



Google Übersetzer


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## Cat Shannon

DrSomnath999 said:


> *The Rafale F3.4 + experienced in Istres*
> 
> Title F3.4 +, this new standard Rafale, being developed by the industry under the responsibility of the Directorate General of Armaments (DGA), is part of the continuous improvement of the weapon system. It takes into account the feedback from the business and the continued strengthening of the flight safety. Experts and EIEV EHIC form the core of the first users and accompany the deployment of the new system. _"For two weeks we conducted a flight test campaign,_ said Captain Matthew Rigg, commander of the antenna brand team Rafale EIEV. _The device will then be deployed in final testing phase in Mont -of-Marsan before operational implementation._ "
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The F3.4 + version includes many software developments, for example, improving the capture and conversion of geographical coordinates standard NATO (MGRS format) which will be a very significant time savings for crews. In the area of security, a new reticle "attitude" will allow pilots to better understand delusions and warned of an unusual position. In addition, taking off, an alarm will not exceed the maximum acceptable power by the brakes of the aircraft, which is a valuable aid in the management of interruption at takeoff. Finally, "in the field of tracking field, F3.4 + offers a new real-time control for transitions between radar mode and digital file," says Commander Rigg.
> 
> Throughout the assessment, representing a twenty-hour flight, the pilots of the EHIC EIEV and have attempted to define the boundaries of employment areas of the system before writing the instructions for use operational. The new standard F3.4 + Rafale should be deployed in early 2015 forces.
> 
> Google Translate



doctor saheb, we will be seeing any of these ? our delivery times will match. they can. won't be so difficult. what we make is another story..


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## halloweene

I think you will see the next stadard, aka F3-R.

@sancho i joined Scorpion, and even thanked him in the first article .
Very soon we are going to switch from a blog to a real website, and we will make an international version. All articles won't be translated, but most important will.

Ty

PS : Dunno where to post it, but today a mate from my former unit died in combat in MAli (SGC Thomas Dupuy, CPA10)






Rest in peace my friend

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## sancho

halloweene said:


> I
> PS : Dunno where to post it, but today a mate from my former unit died in combat in MAli (SGC Thomas Dupuy, CPA10)



Sorry for your loss, may he rest in peace!


----------



## Cat Shannon

halloweene said:


> I think you will see the next stadard, aka F3-R.
> 
> @sancho i joined Scorpion, and even thanked him in the first article .
> Very soon we are going to switch from a blog to a real website, and we will make an international version. All articles won't be translated, but most important will.
> 
> Ty
> 
> PS : Dunno where to post it, but today a mate from my former unit died in combat in MAli (SGC Thomas Dupuy, CPA10)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rest in peace my friend



hey...sorry for your loss too...what else can i say !

F3R is ahead of F3.4+ ? could i bother you with the differences ? i'm not aware of the F3R config. thanks !


----------



## sancho

Cat Shannon said:


> hey...sorry for your loss too...what else can i say !
> 
> F3R is ahead of F3.4+ ? could i bother you with the differences ? i'm not aware of the F3R config. thanks !



F3.4+ is basically a software upgrade of the current F3-O4 (or F3+), the F3R will be available only from 2018 onwards. Tried to some up the capabilities earlier:

Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions | Page 672

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## halloweene

in fact, Talios pod will give powerful IRST... About the lack of low collateral damga weapon, you are right, but the definition phase was "near complete" in june. We will see.


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## DrSomnath999

halloweene said:


> SDB and SPEAR have lighter explosive charge. They should better be compared to AASM 125. Remember Sancho, AASM is evolving towards a GPS/INS/IR/laser version. and it can be shot to any direction (which is not true for gliding bombs).
> Thx Dr and Sancho, read your comments. Generally speaking, we are reaching around 100 000 views per month so we will very soon build a site instead of a siimle blog. I would be grateful if you could browse the blog and tell me if it deserves an international version (not only the EFT article), because it is qui a lot of work (translations).
> Fundamentally the question is ; if most relevant articles were translated in english, would you regularly go to see our site?
> 
> Thank you for your help!
> 
> PS for Typhoon article i received tons of help from Scorpion.



Yves 

i wish good luck from my side to you & bruno so that you can achieve your goal to internationalise that blog as much as possible 

also i have high respect for Mr scorpion ,it's sad he get annoyed on IDF due to sampaix & is not online now on IDF
but i wish he could comeback again on IDF 

But i would like to tell UK armed force commentary ' blog writer Gabriele is also one of the best authors of Typhoon
i frequently visit his blog also .
UK Armed Forces Commentary: Eurofighter Typhoon

anyways keep up the good work

MERCI

*CHEERS*


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## DrSomnath999

Cat Shannon said:


> doctor saheb, we will be seeing any of these ? our delivery times will match. they can. won't be so difficult. what we make is another story..



the real MMRCA requirement of IAF on rafale would be revealed after signing the deal .
most probably F3+ , i cant say whether it would be this version or F3R
but i wish F3R should be procured by india ,

actually meteor integration & induction ASAP is the top priority now for french for their own use & for export reason

Towed decoy was the only lacunae of rafale in EW segment as it was a MMRCA requirement
but that lacunae would be overcomed by LEA program by french (expendable decoys )

HMD no big deal ,india would partner with thales to built for rafale

9T engines hmm whtherr india wants it or not i cant say 


The ground work for which indian companies would be building parts of rafale are being discussed /negotiated & is some what complete also

& the fact is still "i cant say this deal would be signed within this fiscal year or not "

you better wait

*CHEERS*

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## kaykay

According to this report Rafale deal is expected to be signed by next month end as contract negotiation committee has almost finished its tasks and will submit its report very soon.

Defence News - Rafale Jet Deal with France Next on Modi Government's Radar


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## DrSomnath999

@ Halloweene
the fact still remains Typhoon's financial problems plus Patner states lack of common consensus on many upgrades 
& lack of big export order like Indian MMRCA for instance

is creating negative enthusiasm for EADs consortium group to upgrade it much faster rate .

meanwhile rafale whether someone buys it or not they are constantly upgrading & evolving their planes at much faster
rate which is a very very important adavanatge rafale has over typhoon

i can point out many points on upgrades of both if you want on comparitive basis 

*CHEERS*


----------



## sathya

kaykay said:


> According to this report Rafale deal is expected to be signed by next month end as contract negotiation committee has almost finished its tasks and will submit its report very soon.
> 
> Defence News - Rafale Jet Deal with France Next on Modi Government's Radar



Do you really believe it ..
Somewhere report said budget till March 2015, rafale can't be signed.
So if they are signing , it ll be next financial year


----------



## sancho

halloweene said:


> in fact, Talios pod will give powerful IRST... About the lack of low collateral damga weapon, you are right, but the definition phase was "near complete" in june. We will see.



It's not only about low collateral damage, but about getting the most out of the AASM and as good as the 250 were, Sagem / MDBA simply missed the bus on further developments. It's like Blackberry that missed the bus with going to touchscreen display mobiles, suddenly nobody wanted it, even they were good quality mobiles in general. That's why not even French forces want the AASM 125, since it hardly adds advantages other than the extended range.
So an upgrade with limited effect, is simply not good enough, just as the Talios pod might be a nice upgrade in general, but it comes too late of offers too little to justify high costs and delays. No customer will attach it to Rafale, just to substitute the lack of a proper IRST don't you think?

If the French forces had the choice to carry 2 x quadpacks of SPEAR 3, or 6 x AASM 125, what whould they prefer?
More load for CAS, more range for SEAD, more capability against low collataral damage targets, at most likely lower costs.
Similarly, would they prefer a proper FSO IR channel or an external Talios pod with IRST capabilities?

AASM, MICA and FSO are maybe the most important parts of the Rafale, next to SPECTRA, but the upgrade decision on the earlier 3 were pretty bad and will limit their future potential.



kaykay said:


> According to this report Rafale deal is expected to be signed by next month end as contract negotiation committee has almost finished its tasks and will submit its report very soon.



Nothing new, we keep hearing the expected signature date at the end of the year since january, so no point in getting hopes high. Just wait and see when it finally happens mate.


----------



## halloweene

Well, i just can't say too much, but Talios sensor has nothing to do in terms of definition (and optical zoom) with Pirate. Still, an IR channel on OSF NG would be nice and is lacking.Atm operationals would prefer 6 AASM 125 for a simple reason : the system is combat proven (and so good that USAF did test AASM250 recently, succesfully). About lower cost, i do not know. An indian order will surely be very beneficial to french Rafale.


----------



## Cat Shannon

DrSomnath999 said:


> the real MMRCA requirement of IAF on rafale would be revealed after signing the deal .
> most probably F3+ , i cant say whether it would be this version or F3R
> but i wish F3R should be procured by india ,
> 
> actually meteor integration & induction ASAP is the top priority now for french for their own use & for export reason
> 
> Towed decoy was the only lacunae of rafale in EW segment as it was a MMRCA requirement
> but that lacunae would be overcomed by LEA program by french (expendable decoys )
> 
> HMD no big deal ,india would partner with thales to built for rafale
> 
> 9T engines hmm whtherr india wants it or not i cant say
> 
> 
> The ground work for which indian companies would be building parts of rafale are being discussed /negotiated & is some what complete also
> 
> & the fact is still "i cant say this deal would be signed within this fiscal year or not "
> 
> you better wait
> 
> *CHEERS*



Doctor Saheb, I'm sure about the fact that rafale deal is on right track and is going on reasonably well since anything baba Anthony Maharaj touched with his bare hands needs to be scrutinised since french will keep quiet about it.

yes, meteror integration should be priority no. 1. extra weapons sales too ! win-win.


----------



## Cat Shannon

sancho said:


> F3.4+ is basically a software upgrade of the current F3-O4 (or F3+), the F3R will be available only from 2018 onwards. Tried to some up the capabilities earlier:
> 
> Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions | Page 672




thank you sancho saheb ! i'll go through that !


----------



## sathya

Rafale jet talks to resume as Government seeks to finalise ‘mother of all contracts’ Published October 31, 2014 
http://idrw.org/?p=46033 | idrw.org

French team to visit India to put MMRCA deal on fast track Published October 31, 2014 | By admin 

http://idrw.org/?p=46044 | idrw.org


----------



## PARIKRAMA

Can somebody point out why talks of full liability for HAL manufactured rafales and TOT (with critical tech like AESA radar) reluctance by French is now being "leaked" in media? i thot HAL issue was settled almost 6-12 months back. There seems to be a vendetta running against this jet and again and again pitching of LCA Mk1 or MK2(on paper!!!) to be worthy replacement (like comparing earth and moon). Are the vested parties from EADS/UK or russians or americans or some unknown party who does nt want India to own Rafales as it may endanger them over time?

Also i read recently an article stating even with 126 rafales and 200 fgfa in 2032, IAF may have a shortfall of 14 squadrons. LCA MK2 was not considered in that assumption with MK1 production at 8 planes a year and all MIgs 21/27 jaguars etc being retired. This article was quoting a meeting in July by IAF personnels with supposedly timeline for induction. I thot deal of rafale can be 126+63 follow on too. Can someone shed light on that ? are we really going to have a deficit of 14 squadrons in 2032 with rafales and FGFA?
Link to strata post Video: Vayu-StratPost Air Power Roundtable | StratPost
link to a thread:IAF fighter strength to dip further


----------



## sancho

halloweene said:


> Atm operationals would prefer 6 AASM 125 for a simple reason : the system is combat proven.



Hehe, nice dodge.



halloweene said:


> About lower cost, i do not know. An indian order will surely be very beneficial to french Rafale.



Any order will give AASM a lifeline, but that's not the real problem. The upgrades (smaller warhead, different seekers) had no focus on cost reduction, which is the sad part because that would had made a good weapon more attractive on the export market. I mean if even the Saudis didn't went for it and prefered the less capable Paveway 4, it tells us something doesn't it? 
Now with the integration of smaller Griffin LGB kits to LCA, it will be very interesting to see if they will find their way on Mirage 2000 too, next to SPICE 2000. Btw, if you have a chat with somebody of Dassault, would be interesting to know if IAF is going for the Rafaut STBR 2000 racks for the upgrade of the M2K?



PARIKRAMA said:


> I thot deal of rafale can be 126+63 follow on too. Can someone shed light on that ? are we really going to have a deficit of 14 squadrons in 2032 with rafales and FGFA?



We are discussing that in a seperate thread:

IAF fighter strength to dip further | Page 2

The author made it sound more sensational, by looking at 2032 and beyond, but not including the fact that the current orders for M-MRCAs and LCAs would be done way before that and that the prospected order of FGFA is up to 250. So if IAF requires more fighters, they simply can order the optional M-MRCAs or more LCA MK2s, which would be available before 2032, or simply keep the FGFA production as planned and replace the older fighters.
He is also leaving the fact aside that we will use drones by then, for many roles that currently will be done by manned fighters (recon, CAS, SEAD, deep-, or nuclearstrike), basically roles that were meant for Mig 27s and Jags. So the replacement of 6 x Jag squads is most likely no manned fighter anyway.


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## Sahasranama

The whole deal is ROTTEN. France/ Dassault is taken India for a ride. A very expensive ride.

The 126 aircraft costs only 13 Billion $ !!!! ........they are demanding 9 Billion $ for ToT 

ToT was supposed to be FREE as an incentive for buying 126 Rafale. That is where they make their profit. By selling 126 Rafale to us, or do the IAF believe 103 million $ is the Bill of material (BOM) in making Rafale ? 

In comparison the ENTIRE COST of R&D for LCA cost us only 1 Billion $ 

IAF has no concept of money or the sweat and blood common Indians have to pay for their incompetence.

Shame on IAF and Shame on GoI.


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## Abingdonboy

Sahasranama said:


> The whole deal is ROTTEN. France/ Dassault is taken India for a ride. A very expensive ride.
> 
> The 126 aircraft costs only 13 Billion $ !!!! ........they are demanding 9 Billion $ for ToT
> 
> ToT was supposed to be FREE as an incentive for buying 126 Rafale. That is where they make their profit. By selling 126 Rafale to us, or do the IAF believe 103 million $ is the Bill of material (BOM) in making Rafale ?
> 
> In comparison the ENTIRE COST of R&D for LCA cost us only 1 Billion $
> 
> IAF has no concept of money or the sweat and blood common Indians have to pay for their incompetence.
> 
> Shame on IAF and Shame on GoI.


You literally don't have a clue about what is fact and what is clearly fiction.

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## Sahasranama

Abingdonboy said:


> You literally don't have a clue about what is fact and what is clearly fiction.



Do you have access to IAF documents we are unaware of ? If not, then you know as much as I do.


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## halloweene

ToT cannot be priceless. Free access to technology and documents is one thing, implementing processes and industrialze them is another thing.
Anw, none of us do know the real amount of the deal, and what will be included in.
Considering the extent of new MELBAA study plan for example, i'd say india should not worry about Rafale future


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## Sahasranama

halloweene said:


> ToT cannot be priceless. Free access to technology and documents is one thing, implementing processes and industrialze them is another thing.
> Anw, none of us do know the real amount of the deal, and what will be included in.
> Considering the extent of new MELBAA study plan for example, i'd say india should not worry about Rafale future



So Dassault is demanding 9 Billion $ as consultancy charges for "implementing processes and helping HAL industrialize" ?  

WOW. Congratulations on successfully Conning IAF and GOI. House of Lies (TV Series 2012– ) - IMDb

I am sure Rafale future is made secure by IAF generous gift. No worries there.


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## C130

Sahasranama said:


> The whole deal is ROTTEN. France/ Dassault is taken India for a ride. A very expensive ride.
> 
> The 126 aircraft costs only 13 Billion $ !!!! ........they are demanding 9 Billion $ for ToT
> 
> ToT was supposed to be FREE as an incentive for buying 126 Rafale. That is where they make their profit. By selling 126 Rafale to us, or do the IAF believe 103 million $ is the Bill of material (BOM) in making Rafale ?
> 
> In comparison the ENTIRE COST of R&D for LCA cost us only 1 Billion $
> 
> IAF has no concept of money or the sweat and blood common Indians have to pay for their incompetence.
> 
> Shame on IAF and Shame on GoI.



all we can do is speculate.


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## Bang Galore

Sahasranama said:


> So Dassault is demanding 9 Billion $ as consultancy charges for "implementing processes and helping HAL industrialize" ?
> *
> WOW. Congratulations on successfully Conning IAF and GOI.* House of Lies (TV Series 2012– ) - IMDb
> 
> *I am sure Rafale future is made secure by IAF generous gift. No worries there*.



_"An egregious example is that Dassault, as part of the Rafale contract, has promised gallium nitride (GaN) technology to make semi-conductor chips utilised in high-powered avionics but refused to part with technology for the foundries to fabricate the chips! India will thus pay through its nose for technology that cannot be converted into a component, which will end up being imported for the lifetime of the aircraft"_

__

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## Sahasranama

C130 said:


> all we can do is speculate.



Better to speculate now and build public opinion for an open REVIEW of this deal than regret later.


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## C130

Sahasranama said:


> Better to speculate now and build public opinion for an open REVIEW of this deal than regret later.



that should happen no matter what unless it jeopardizes national security.


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## Sahasranama

C130 said:


> that should happen no matter what unless it jeopardizes national security.



It should, but its not happening under the "veil" of NATIONAL SECURITY  ...... That is how the IAF operate, open blackmail.


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## C130

Sahasranama said:


> It should, but its not happening under the "veil" of NATIONAL SECURITY  ...... That is how the IAF operate, open blackmail.



best bet is get a petition going.


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## Sahasranama

C130 said:


> best bet is get a petition going.



This is off topic, so my last post on this particular matter. But in India "petition" does not really work. The working model in India is PIL. (Public Interest litigation)


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## halloweene

Bang Galore said:


> _"An egregious example is that Dassault, as part of the Rafale contract, has promised gallium nitride (GaN) technology to make semi-conductor chips utilised in high-powered avionics but refused to part with technology for the foundries to fabricate the chips! India will thus pay through its nose for technology that cannot be converted into a component, which will end up being imported for the lifetime of the aircraft"_
> 
> __



I've read that ignorant part from an ignorant politician. Dassault DO NOT build any GaN modules. A joint venture from Thalès and Airbus aerospace and defence ccalled UMS do.

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## Bang Galore

halloweene said:


> I've read that ignorant part from an ignorant politician. Dassault DO NOT build any GaN modules. A joint venture from Thalès and Airbus aerospace and defence ccalled UMS do.



Ya, that was part of the argument that Dassault is simply using Thales & other 3rd party arguments to not allow the offering of technology. How should it matter to the buyer?


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## Sahasranama

Bang Galore said:


> Ya, that was part of the argument that Dassault is simply using Thales & other 3rd party arguments to not allow the offering of technology. How should it matter to the buyer?



LOL. Exactly. Why do we have to care who owns it, its Dassaults responsibility to make sure it happens. They are the main negotiators.


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## sancho

Bang Galore said:


> Ya, that was part of the argument that Dassault is simply using Thales & other 3rd party arguments to not allow the offering of technology. How should it matter to the buyer?



No it wasn't he made up the story that Dassault would provide ToT of the AESA, which itself is nonsense since Thales/Airbus does it, but also that they would provide GaN module ToT, which the AESA doesn't even use. So the whole point of not sharing techs was based on a lot of BS and the article itself had so many mistakes, that the route of the argumentation was pretty obvious.
Dassault is the developer of the fighter, not of the AESA or the engine, therefor any ToT contracts would be done with Thales / Airbus, or Safran, which (apart of Airbus) are part of the Rafale international consortium if you want. Just like Saab is the developer of the Gripen, but not of the Selex repositioner and IRST, or the GE engine of the Gripen E and can't provide ToT of them without approval and they are not part of the fighter development, which makes it even more difficult to get ToT of these critical techs.

It's basically a shame to see how cheap our media is, where anybody with a defence blog can write any nonsense and get even published, without even putting an effort into fact checking.


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## Bang Galore

sancho said:


> No it wasn't he made up the story that Dassault would provide ToT of the AESA, which itself is nonsense since Thales/Airbus does it, but also that they would provide GaN module ToT, which the AESA doesn't even use. So the whole point of not sharing techs was based on a lot of BS and the article itself had so many mistakes, that the route of the argumentation was pretty obvious.
> Dassault is the developer of the fighter, not of the AESA or the engine, therefor any ToT contracts would be done with Thales / Airbus, or Safran, which (apart of Airbus) are part of the Rafale international consortium if you want. Just like Saab is the developer of the Gripen, but not of the Selex repositioner and IRST, or the GE engine of the Gripen E and can't provide ToT of them without approval and they are not part of the fighter development, which makes it even more difficult to get ToT of these critical techs.
> 
> It's basically a shame to see how cheap our media is, where anybody with a defence blog can write any nonsense and get even published, without even putting an effort into fact checking.




Who cares what Dassault's arguments are. This is about the deal and the ToT thereof . The deal is for the whole platform, not for individual parts. The point is not who is responsible for what part but whether we are able, in negotiations, to get what we think we would have. If some part of the _"Rafale consortium" _won't play ball, that should be a problem for the consortium, not for the buyer. If we are not able to get all the ToT we thought we would, then the deal should be seen as non-compliant & not proceeeded with. Not our place to tie the knots here.

Don't bother with the media, there are enough who have been acting as if the Rafale is the greatest gift to India. They get their say, only fair others do to. Not the business of the media to take sides.


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## sancho

Bang Galore said:


> Who cares what Dassault's arguments are.



Who says they are arguing at all? Again, that was a made up story, not a single official statement from the IAF or the MoD to suggest otherwise. In fact official statements confirmed that the ToT bid is complying to RFP requirements.


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## Donatello

Bang Galore said:


> Who cares what Dassault's arguments are. This is about the deal and the ToT thereof . The deal is for the whole platform, not for individual parts. The point is not who is responsible for what part but whether we are able, in negotiations, to get what we think we would have. If some part of the _"Rafale consortium" _won't play ball, that should be a problem for the consortium, not for the buyer. If we are not able to get all the ToT we thought we would, then the deal should be seen as non-compliant & not proceeeded with. Not our place to tie the knots here.
> 
> Don't bother with the media, there are enough who have been acting as if the Rafale is the greatest gift to India. They get their say, only fair others do to. Not the business of the media to take sides.



Sancho does have a valid point here. Critical systems like Radars/Engines are always developed by some other party that specializes in that particular field. In would be interesting to see what ToT is given, since the term 'ToT' is very ambiguous at best. Simply importing and assembling is not ToT. ToT would be, that they transfer all the technical research and development so that if needed, the buyer could make something new, next gen on their own. Not merely assemble them. Since research is a natural and long process, that is why you see only a select few companies can build jet engines that good and they have been doing it for decades.Companies like Snecma/Safran/Thales spend billions on researching these products, it would be interesting to see if they are willing to give all their trade secrets and at what cost. Of course they'll teach you how put the engine blades etc in place, but hey in order to manufacture those blades you need access to their manufacturing process plus the equipment needed would have to be imported from some third party.

Projects like these are extremely complex, west does it well because they have sorted out the supply and chain issues over a long period of time.


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## Donatello

sancho said:


> Who says they are arguing at all? Again, that was a made up story, not a single official statement from the IAF or the MoD to suggest otherwise. In fact official statements confirmed that the ToT bid is complying to RFP requirements.



Yea but what are the exact RFP requirements?

Secondly, IAF is getting the F3 version i assume, is it the RBE2 PESA or AESA?


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## sancho

Donatello said:


> Yea but what are the exact RFP requirements?
> 
> Secondly, IAF is getting the F3 version i assume, is it the RBE2 PESA or AESA?



That's up to the MoD to decide and they surely won't make it public. The MMRCA includes the F3+ with AESA, which is operational in French forces.


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## Donatello

sancho said:


> That's up to the MoD to decide and they surely won't make it public. The MMRCA includes the F3+ with AESA, which is operational in French forces.



Yea but the newer one doesn't become fully available till 2018, so would the initial aircraft be shipped using the old system and then retrofitted with the new one? (assuming India signs the deal this year, so deliveries to start in the next 2 years) BTW, i am assuming there are production partners for MMRCA beyond HAL, like TATA etc, have they prepped up their expected factories/installations?


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## Bang Galore

Donatello said:


> Sancho does have a valid point here. Critical systems like Radars/Engines are always developed by some other party that specializes in that particular field. In would be interesting to see what ToT is given, since the term 'ToT' is very ambiguous at best. .



That is exactly my point. The argument for Rafale has been that it will allow for Indian entities to obtain ToT. If that is got around by with the argument that it is a 3rd party's intellectual property & therefore not available_ (assuming 3rd party refuses or Dassault says they are doing so)_, then essentially what is it exactly we are paying this extraordinary amount of money for ? Regardless of the merit of the case being made _(no one knows exactly)_, it is still a valid question to ask.



Donatello said:


> Projects like these are extremely complex, west does it well because they have sorted out the supply and chain issues over a long period of time.



Exactly, which is why you have to wonder whether we are being served a dummy with all this ToT bit_ (not just Rafale, any of the choices here)._


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## Bang Galore

sancho said:


> Who says they are arguing at all? Again, that was a made up story, not a single official statement from the IAF or the MoD to suggest otherwise. In fact official statements confirmed that the ToT bid is complying to RFP requirements.



In which case, there is nothing to bother about. Is there? We are not discussing only_ "official" _statements, that would get very boring, very fast. We are discussing what articles are being posted etc. as of now, we have no idea of where the truth lies & until a deal gets signed, we will indulge ourselves with these titbits.


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## sancho

Donatello said:


> Yea but the newer one doesn't become fully available till 2018, so would the initial aircraft be shipped using the old system and then retrofitted with the new one?



You mean the F3R upgrade that comes in 2018, the F3+ with AESA is already in production today. 



Donatello said:


> BTW, i am assuming there are production partners for MMRCA beyond HAL, like TATA etc, have they prepped up their expected factories/installations?



Some of them already mentioned here and team ups are done:

Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions | Page 600


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## sancho

Bang Galore said:


> In which case, there is nothing to bother about. Is there? We are not discussing only_ "official" _statements, that would get very boring, very fast. We are discussing what articles are being posted etc. as of now, we have no idea of where the truth lies & until a deal gets signed, we will indulge ourselves with these titbits.



Not for me, but I only take reliable articles and sources seriously and MoD stating that the ToT offer is complying vs an LCA fanboy with a blog, that happens to have a Prof title. Well, pretty simple to me.


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## Agent_47

Brazil has signed a SEK39.3 billion (USD5.4 billion) contract for 36 Gripen E/F fighters,
That means for a far capable fighter with 50% offset and full ToT for critical components, the $18 billion is not a bad price.(if we have gone for 128 gripens then the cost would have been ~$18.9billion)
Brazil signs for 36 Gripen E/F fighters - IHS Jane's 360


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## DarkElf

Agent_47 said:


> Brazil has signed a SEK39.3 billion (USD5.4 billion) contract for 36 Gripen E/F fighters,
> That means for a far capable fighter with 50% offset and full ToT for critical components, the $18 billion is not a bod price.(if w have gone for 128 gripens the cost would have been $18.9billion)
> Brazil signs for 36 Gripen E/F fighters - IHS Jane's 360



At the same time, Brazil also sell some of their plane to Sweden + they can sell the Gripen to neighboring country. Also Brazil can gain additional monetary advantage from any future sales of Gripen (part production).


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## Agent_47

DarkElf said:


> At the same time, Brazil also sell some of their plane to Sweden + they can sell the Gripen to neighboring country. Also Brazil can gain additional monetary advantage from any future sales of Gripen (part production).


Brazil can do these because their aerospace industry is far more advanced than us.
If you think about it ,we also get similar kind of benefits from Russia.(FGFA+MTA)


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## sancho

DarkElf said:


> At the same time, Brazil also sell some of their plane to Sweden + they can sell the Gripen to neighboring country. Also Brazil can gain additional monetary advantage from any future sales of Gripen (part production).



Getting benefits from part production is part of the MMRCA offer too, the French proposed Swiss a reduced offer, just after we selected it, just because of the expected lower production costs by diverting parts of the production to India. What's different though is, that Brazil most likely funds and partially develops the twin seat and naval Gripen, therefor will benefit from exports of thise fighters more, than from basic part production. They basically have partner status there and that's what can get their industry the most in the long run, just as we would get from designing the twin seat FGFA and naval FGFA as a partner.

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## DarkElf

Agent_47 said:


> Brazil can do these because their aerospace industry is far more advanced than us.
> If you think about it ,we also get similar kind of benefits from Russia.(FGFA+MTA)



I'm still confused about FGFA/PAK-FA.

1. Is both the same project with different name, or FGFA is derivative from PAK-FA based on India requirement? 

2. If Indonesia buy PAK-FA from Russia, will India get monetary benefit (from part manufacture, IP right, etc)? If not, can India independently sold FGFA to foreign buyer, competing with PAK-FA sales?


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## sancho

DarkElf said:


> I'm still confused about FGFA/PAK-FA.



Replied here:

Sukhoi PAK-FA / FGFA: Updates,News & Discussions | Page 144


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## Raul_AD

sancho said:


> Not for me, but I only take reliable articles and sources seriously and MoD stating that the ToT offer is complying vs an LCA fanboy with a blog, that happens to have a Prof title. Well, pretty simple to me.



Rafale or Typhoon which one is better???

http://topolo.free.fr/Compare/Rafale vs Typhoon.pdf


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## sancho

Raul_AD said:


> Rafale or Typhoon which one is better???



Depends on where you put your priorities, both have their advantages in certain fields.


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## Raul_AD

sancho said:


> Depends on where you put your priorities, both have their advantages in certain fields.



They are pretty much neck-to-neck no distinctive advantage to any one. Typhoon will also fare well in place of Rafale, if India gets it on much reduced price, then Rafale.


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## sancho

Raul_AD said:


> They are pretty much neck-to-neck no distinctive advantage to any one. Typhoon will also fare well in place of Rafale, if India gets it on much reduced price, then Rafale.



They can reduce their offer, but will find it hard to get below the Rafale costs. However, if the offer gets us more in return it would be worth it. Capability wise the biggest downsides if the EF are the lack of AESA and limited long range heavy strike configs.


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## sancho

> *The DGA confident on French arms exports
> *
> The Delegate General for Armaments Laurent Collet-Billon has been quite confident about the prospects for exports of military equipment in the year 2015 at the hearing by members of the Committee on National Defence and armed forces. *He cites the current prospects for the Rafale, India and Qatar, ensuring that "the matter is serious and conducted discreetly," a "good sign" that suggests prospects rather optimistic about signing future contracts. Without advance on a date, the CEO said that the timing differences between India and France (fiscal year starts in April in India) may play a role in advancing the project*...



Google Übersetzer


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## Derolo

As soon as IAF gets 1st squadron delivery the chaps over at Navy will surely want 2-3sqn of the Rafale-M seeing as we will be getting a CATOBAR AC in the future this will be something to look forward to.

Mig-29K and Rafale-M now thats one heck of a naval aviation wing.


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## Raul_AD

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/529988149779243008
 Hilarious is'nt it ??????????????


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## sancho

Raul_AD said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/529988149779243008
> Hilarious is'nt it ??????????????



HAL has issues with developing the IJT, but the licence production of Hawks goes well, which shows that this comparison doesn't really work. LCA is neither developed by HAL, nor is it fully develped yet and HAL only needs to produce it, like it is the case with, MKI, Dhruvs, Hawks or Do 228.

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## Jason bourne

Majority of defence deals are stuck up due to lobbying, vested interest and kickbacks: Parrikar.


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## sancho

Jason bourne said:


> Majority of defence deals are stuck up due to lobbying, vested interest and kickbacks: Parrikar.



The PM lobbying for privat industry and delaying LUH, NLUH and SSK deals belong to these too, that's why Parrikar has to stop this lobbying as well.


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## Sahasranama

sancho said:


> The PM lobbying for privat industry and delaying LUH, NLUH and SSK deals belong to these too, that's why Parrikar has to stop this lobbying as well.



Must be true since you said it

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## Raul_AD

sancho said:


> The PM lobbying for privat industry and delaying LUH, NLUH and SSK deals belong to these too, that's why Parrikar has to stop this lobbying as well.



What the hell Saint Antony doing as DM till Six months Back????? All you want INSTANT RESULT from present Govt.????

Btw How many requirements worth Billion$ cleared by a PART-TIME a DM in present Govt.?????

The Philosophy adopted by Present Govt. needs deep thinking and application because this will make India as serious EXPORTER OF DEFENCE EQUIPMENTS from 5-10 years in future. At the same time it should not affect Defence Prepairdness of Forces. It requires vision and implementation, if some thing gets delayed by few more months don't make much difference before the Boll gets Rolling. Afterall WE ARE ALREADY DELAYED BY 10 YEARS THANKS TO UPA, SONIA, SAINT ANTONY.


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## DrSomnath999

*AIR FAN N 431 october 2014*






_*AESA.* (page 7)_
_- In terms of performance, the French Air Force says the detection is now exceptional both for range, acquisition speed or tracking stability . Gains are spectacular with twice the current range, wider scan field and increased resistance to jamming and decoying._
_- Same symbology is used. Crews can pass easily from PESA to AESA and vice versa._
_- The exact number is classified but RBE2 has over 1000 modules._
_- Need only 2 hours to replace PESA by AESA antenna, without any test or software changes....

*DDM NG *(page 8):
- Lower false alarm rate.
- Better discrimination of threats.
- Increased resolution and increased detection range.

*F3.4 +* (page 8)
- Improved interaction between file and radar terrain following modes. 
- Allows to work on a high-resolution radar image stored while the radar continues to operate in air to air mode. 
- Automatic conversion of LGZ geographical coordinates into MGRS (Military Grid Reference System).
- Pilots have now access to navigation data on the electronic counter-measures page to allow them to stay on the SPECTRA display during a combat phase.
...

*Development funded by Dassault* (pages 9 to 10)
- Completed: Conformal Fuel Tank. Tested on Rafale B01 in the early 2000s, 1,150 l per CFT. Subsonic and supersonic flights have demonstrated a negligible effect on the flight qualities of the aircraft.
- Ongoing: satellite transmission system. Ongoing test on Rafale B01 equipped with INMARSAT antenna. (International Maritime Satellite)
- Ongoing. Even if it is not a priority for the French Air Force and Navy, the integration work of a HMD for export customers is underway[Topowl, Scorpion ? it's not specified]

*F3R* (pages 11 to 18 )
- 500 development flights are scheduled between mid 2014 and 2017. (Meteor, GBU 16, SBU-54 AASM, TALIOS pod, improved Spectra; improved RBE2, new reco-ng mode, IFF mode 5s....).
- Meteor fire control trials began in July 2014 on Rafale B301 and in September 2014 on Rafale C101.
- Every Rafales will be able to fire Meteor, PESA Rafale included.
- Integration of the GBU-16 (500kg). it's the logical complement of GBU-12 Paveway II (250kg), GBU-22 Paveway III (250kg) and GBU-24 Paveway III (1000kg) which are already integrated. Rafale F3R could be equipped with 2 GBU-16 on hardpoints 2 under the wings.
- SBU-54 (AASM laser) is already integrated, but at a minimum. Tests must improve fire-control to account the full capabilities of the weapon in matter of range and misalignment relative to the trajectory of the aircraft.
- AGCAS (Automatic Ground Collision Avoidance System) will be thoroughly tested from April 2015. Fully automatic detection of danger and recovery, without any human intervention, in order to reduce the risk of a crash due to human error (G-LOC, spatial disorientation ... ) to zero.
- Spectra: improved detection , improved jamming capabilities and decoying in order to cope with more complex scenarios.
- Reco-NG: improved real-time mode (collection, visualization and data transfer)
- First tests of the new Talios pod planned mid-2016.
- New flight refueling pod (NARANG) with higher flow, better reliability... Tests planned end 2015.
....

*Future *(page 18/19)
- Mid-life renovation between 2020 and 2030 : new weapons (Mica NG ..). Engineers are working on better interlacing of air-air, air-ground and air-sea capabilities, better connectivity and better radar and infrared discretion ...
- Rafale NG (after 2030): new structure, RCS reduction, more powerful engines, sensors on the entire surface of the aircraft, DIRCM (Directional Infrared Counte-Measures) with laser turrets. Cooperation with drones; Rafale NG could become a platform managing a patrol of several drones..._


_
*COURTESY -OLYBRIUS THE GREAT
THANK YOU FOR THE INFO MATE*_

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## sancho

@Abingdonboy 

I checked with Olybrius recently on the open deliveries of Rafale M and he confirmed that still 7 are about to come by 2015/16. That means that only 8 Rafale Air Force versions will be build in the same time, that could be diverted to an export customer and that another 10 would need to be taken out of operational service to provide a full squad. 
In comparision, EF T3A delivery just started this year and Germany alone will get 26 fighters till the end of 2017, which shows the advantage the EF has in terms of early delivery and countering falling squad numbers.


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## sancho

> * Economic ties top agenda as Modi meets Cameron, EU chief, Abe*
> 
> ...
> Though he was meeting the British prime minister for the first time, the ground for an upscale in bilateral relations was laid during the visit by British Foreign Secretary Phillip Hammond and later Defence Secretary Michael Fallon to India in the past few months. Britain is pushing for the European Consortium to bag the multi-billion dollar Indian deal for 126 fighter jets with its Eurofighter Typhoon in case the Modi government's negotiations for the French Rafale jets fall through. The European Consortium comprises Britain, Germany, Italy and Spain.
> 
> Modi will have bilateral meetings with German Chancellor Angela Merkel and also Spain's Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy on the sidelines of the G20. He will also meet French President Francois Hollande, who is likely to push for negotiations to clinch the multi-billion dollar deal for the Rafale, which was selected two years ago for the 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) project...



Economic ties top agenda as Modi meets Cameron, EU chief, Abe (Roundup) | Business Standard News


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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> @Abingdonboy
> 
> I checked with Olybrius recently on the open deliveries of Rafale M and he confirmed that still 7 are about to come by 2015/16. That means that only 8 Rafale Air Force versions will be build in the same time, that could be diverted to an export customer and that another 10 would need to be taken out of operational service to provide a full squad.
> In comparision, EF T3A delivery just started this year and Germany alone will get 26 fighters till the end of 2017, which shows the advantage the EF has in terms of early delivery and countering falling squad numbers.


AFAIK Dassualt have said that they can quite easily ramp-up production if required by an export customer. Desolate purposely slowed down production so as to keep the Rafale production line open for as long as possible, there is plenty of spare capacity there.


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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> Economic ties top agenda as Modi meets Cameron, EU chief, Abe (Roundup) | Business Standard News


Standard stuff, the leaders of both sides need to make a push for their economic interests, if they didn't there would be hell to pay at home.


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## DrSomnath999

*STORM WARNING by MIchal Fiszer*

an old article from journal of electronic defence june 2005 

i am posting some good part only not entire thing

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## DrSomnath999



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## C130

DrSomnath999 said:


> View attachment 151629
> View attachment 151631



I think SK did right by picking the F-15K over the Rafale,Eurofighter, and Su-35


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## Pichkari

@DrSomnath999 Is fso of any use of in the era of aesa radars?
Most modern aesa radars will detect rafale from a distance of 90 km right?
So how fso comes into play??


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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> AFAIK Dassualt have said that they can quite easily ramp-up production if required by an export customer. Desolate purposely slowed down production so as to keep the Rafale production line open for as long as possible, there is plenty of spare capacity there.



Only if reasonable additional numbers will be ordered and with a certain time. It takes around 3 years to build a Rafale, so even if they increase the production next year, they would get a higher rate only in 2 or 3 years. So that's working only if the have to produce fighters for France, Qatar and more for India and even then they couldn't get similar numbers of fighters till 2017, like EFs would be available. On that front the EF wins clearly today.


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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> Only if reasonable additional numbers will be ordered and with a certain time. It takes around 3 years to build a Rafale, so even if they increase the production next year, they would get a higher rate only in 2 or 3 years. So that's working only if the have to produce fighters for France, Qatar and more for India and even then they couldn't get similar numbers of fighters till 2017, like EFs would be available. On that front the EF wins clearly today.


But considering only the first 18 are meant to be made outside of India, this is all rather irrelevant is it not sir? In both cases the IAF would be getting their new birds (EFT or Rafale) around the same time (2017). i would agree EFT had an advantage were, say, 60 units to be made abroad.


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## sancho

Abingdonboy said:


> But considering only the first 18 are meant to be made outside of India, this is all rather irrelevant is it not sir?



Depends on if 126 will be ordered or as even Dassault officials stated, 126 + optionals, because then more than 18 will be ordered directly from the winning vendor to counter the falling squad numbers. Then it is relevent how many squads can be procured faster and it might even make a cost difference, since we would order more Rafales from Dassault, while we could order EF T3As directly from the partner orders, probably even at reduced costs.


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## Last Samuri

When is this ridiculous mmrca acctually happening.
Signature and delivery


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## DrSomnath999

Pichkari said:


> @DrSomnath999 Is fso of any use of in the era of aesa radars?
> Most modern aesa radars will detect rafale from a distance of 90 km right?
> So how fso comes into play??



Hmm

IRST (long wave) likes PIRATE/FSO/SKYWARD-G would be very crucial in future warfare 

why??

1) it would be very handy against stealth targets as current X band aesa radars cant detect a stealth plane like F22 greater than 60/70km meanwhile IRST can be very effective against stealth planes as planes own IR emission due 
to air friction cant be neglected at all plus jet exhausts add to that

2)All radar can be jammed whther high band/low band but IRST is unjammable it cant be jammed ,plus it is a passive means of detection it wont expose your position to your enemies which radar do

plus new gen of GaN based jammer would make jamming more powerful so IRST (LONG WAVE) would be very
crucial 

FSO -IT of current rafale lack IRST channel but indian MMRCA would be having IRST channel thats confirmed
their range is ideally 80-90km though max range says greater than 100km in brochures but 90km is also sufficent

BUt for exploitation of meteor's full kinematic range IRST detection range is insufficent so AESA radar use is mandatory .

*CHEERS*

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## Pichkari

DrSomnath999 said:


> Hmm
> 
> IRST (long wave) likes PIRATE/FSO/SKYWARD-G would be very crucial in future warfare
> 
> why??
> 
> 1) it would be very handy against stealth targets as current X band aesa radars cant detect a stealth plane like F22 greater than 60/70km meanwhile IRST can be very effective against stealth planes as planes own IR emission due
> to air friction cant be neglected at all plus jet exhausts add to that
> 
> 2)All radar can be jammed whther high band/low band but IRST is unjammable it cant be jammed ,*plus it is a passive means of detection it wont expose your position to your enemies which radar do*
> 
> plus new gen of GaN based jammer would make jamming more powerful so IRST (LONG WAVE) would be very
> crucial
> 
> FSO -IT of current rafale lack IRST channel but indian MMRCA would be having IRST channel thats confirmed
> their range is ideally 80-90km though max range says greater than 100km in brochures but 90km is also sufficent
> 
> BUt for exploitation of meteor's full kinematic range IRST detection range is insufficent so AESA radar use is mandatory .
> 
> *CHEERS*



I still cant understand its use In combat.Even if the rafale doesnt switch on its radar,its still going to be detected by enemy radars.
Only scenario i can think of where fso will be helpful is when the enemy has a radar detection range of less than 90-100km.

Another question sir.

Does spectra also help in passive detection??
If so how?is it also based on ir technology??
The explanation in articles is very vague.


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## DrSomnath999

Pichkari said:


> I still cant understand its use In combat.


sorry !!

but you rather tell me how should i explain you so that you can understand clearly it's role in combat becoz my prevoius post explains clearly it's role in future combat .

so i dont know in which better way i should explain you so that you could understand it's use in combat





Pichkari said:


> Even if the rafale doesnt switch on its radar,its still going to be detected by enemy radars.



Rafale's uses highly classified "Active cancellation tech " which is confirmed by even french also




New Avionics For Gripen, Typhoon And Rafale | Defense content from Aviation Week
which masks the radar echo of the rafale plane against enemy radar so the radar will be unable to detect the aircraft Spectra is protecting.”

it is some sort of software based advanced stealth tech




http://cfile208.uf.daum.net/original/150B9A3F4E0464D729FF12
courtesy-MARC SAMPAIX

SPECTRA is a battle-proven and very effective tool, and there is even some evidence that it was the only platform that performed well against an SA-10B during the NATO exercise MACE XIII in April 2012 in Slovakia.

MACE XIII against SA-10 -aka S300-

plus in future plans are there for a semistealth variant of this plane if india can also opt for it in it's MLU program if it wants








Pichkari said:


> Only scenario i can think of where fso will be helpful is when the enemy has a radar detection range of less than 90-100km.


loll at you man!!

ok !! dont take it personal buddy

here is an interesting info i would like to tell that Captor M whose detection range boast of 160-180km , were reduced to meagre 9km against intense jamming environment 




http://www.flightglobal.com/FlightPDFArchive/1990/1990 - 2730.PDF

so you can guess what a joke it would be when you claimed some thing like this

*"Only scenario i can think of where fso will be helpful is when the enemy has a radar detection range of less than 90-100km"

plus in future Rafale would be having GaN based jamming *




Pichkari said:


> Another question sir.
> 
> Does spectra also help in passive detection??
> If so how?is it also based on ir technology??
> The explanation in articles is very vague.



Of course SPectra is the key factor in passive detection coupled with FSO & MICA IR missile they give very good coverage of passive detection 

You are aksing a question which has a big answer 
for begineers like you read this 

http://www.dassault-aviation.com/fi...teur/AUTRES_DOCS/Fox_three/Fox_Three_nr_1.pdf

1st you need the to understand the basics of RWR then only you can understand the role RWR in spectra of passive detection against enemy planes 





but one more thing when an RWR have inferometric antennaes it can also be used for targeting 





spectra RWR has both the capabilites inferometric antennaes plus angular localazion of target with precision less than 1 degree





DDM NG is part of SPECTRA which is also an IRST based PAssive MAWS capable of targeting also
http://www.mbda-systems.com/mediagallery/files/ddm_ng_ds.pdf

PLUS if you still want to learn more 

there is thread in the internet called rafale's mini enclyopedia & i dont know who posted this thread may be you should read this thread 
for more
rafale's mini enclyopedia - Google Search

*CHEERS*

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## Pichkari

@DrSomnath999 thanks.Thats a lot of stuff to read.I'll go through it and get back to you.


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## DrSomnath999

Pichkari said:


> @DrSomnath999 thanks.Thats a lot of stuff to read.I'll go through it and get back to you.


now dont expect i would say you are welcome 



though you are welcome but only sometimes when i would feel it's right to answer your queries.

i dont have time to explain bit by bit everything about rafale better use that rafale's mini encylopedia thread to improve your knowledge about rafale

*CHEERS*

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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> Depends on if 126 will be ordered or as even Dassault officials stated, 126 + optionals, because then more than 18 will be ordered directly from the winning vendor to counter the falling squad numbers. Then it is relevent how many squads can be procured faster and it might even make a cost difference, since we would order more Rafales from Dassault, while we could order EF T3As directly from the partner orders, probably even at reduced costs.


I do believe it is highly the IAF will go for the additional 63 Rafales but I'm not convinced that the follow on 63 would be built abroad although I think this would be ideal to address the tumbling SQD strength. I get the feeling the follow on 63 would be made in India after the 108 built in India are all delivered.


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## sancho

Pichkari said:


> I still cant understand its use In combat.Even if the rafale doesnt switch on its radar,its still going to be detected by enemy radars.



Only if it's head on to an enemy fighter, because the field of viev of the radar is limited. The problem however is, that Rafales RWR might pic up signals of the enemy radar far earlier and in all directions (360°around the fighter), which gives it the advantage to positions it outside of the radar detection field of the enemy. Even AESA radars or other systems of a fighter give away EM signals that can be picked up by modern RWR and ESM sensors, which is why the EW suit today plays even a bigger role that the radar in detecting or even targeting a target. That's why pilots prefer to use the passive mode with their radar turned off, guided by AWACS or other active fighters in a backward (safe) position. 
In passive mode, IRST then is a crucial advantage, because it gives you the capability to detect and track a target (and if possible even attack it at BVR ranges as Rafale can with MICA), without giving away your position by using the radar.
Another important point is, that fighters without AWACS support, often needs to identify their targets visually, to be sure that the target is a fried or foe. IRST here provide visual ID capability at round 40Km, while FSO's new TV channel can do it even at 60Km. 

So detect signals first => position yourself in a position to not be detected => ID your target => attack if necessary with IRST or by finally turning on your radar and using EM missiles. 



Abingdonboy said:


> I do believe it is highly the IAF will go for the additional 63 Rafales but I'm not convinced that the follow on 63 would be built abroad although I think this would be ideal to address the tumbling SQD strength. I get the feeling the follow on 63 would be made in India after the 108 built in India are all delivered.



True, usually they would be added to HAL's lines, but Dassault officials made it clear that they are talking about the addition right now, which would not be the case for a follow order by 2024 or so. By then far different techs and weapon capabilities can be available, compared to the F3+ now and the F3R by 2018, which makes it pointless to fix the additional order for HAL today right? 

Hypothetically, lets say the order is increased, what would you prefer if you were the IAF Chief (purely based on advantages for IAF, lets ignore the industrial side for a moment)?

18 x Rafale F3+ (1 squad) with AESA, but most likely without HMS, IRST or the Litening pod till the end of 2017
and 171 x Rafales from HAL lines beyond 2018

Vs

54 x T3A (3 squads) without AESA, but with HMS, IRST, the Litening pod and most likely Meteor till the end of 2017
and 135 x EF T3B's from HAL lines beyond 2018

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## Bhuvan93

I've always wondered, in wartime, how long would it take to put together a Su-30MKI or a Rafale with the greatest of urgency required?


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## Pichkari

sancho said:


> The problem however is, that Rafales RWR might pic up signals of the enemy radar far earlier and in all directions (360°around the fighter), which gives it the advantage to positions it outside of the radar detection field of the enemy



1] I went through the encyclopedia thread but couldn't find any range for rwr tech in rafale.Do you have any info??

2] Can you lock onto an enemy aircraft and fire a missile using this tech??Without radars and irst??

3] Many 4th gen aitcrafts have rwr right.So am i correct in understanding that what makes rafale special is "interferometer"


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## Abingdonboy

sancho said:


> 18 x Rafale F3+ (1 squad) with AESA, but most likely without HMS, IRST or the Litening pod till the end of 2017
> and 171 x Rafales from HAL lines beyond 2018


What makes you think the Rafales delivered to the IAF wouldn't have HMS or the Litening pod integrated? From what I know the HMS is ready for integration just waiting a customer to specify it (which the IAF most certainly would) additionally as per the RFP the winning bidder has to deliver the fighters with the LDP of the IAF's choice integrated. As the IAF has made the Litening their standard LDP across the fleet then the Rafales will have to come with the Litening.

The jury is still out on the IRST, it could come on the first 18 from Dassualt but it is an unknown.



sancho said:


> True, usually they would be added to HAL's lines, but Dassault officials made it clear that they are talking about the addition right now, which would not be the case for a follow order by 2024 or so.


I agree the ideal situation would be two production lines pumping out 81 (in France) and 108 (in India) simultaneously and I sincerely hope that this is what the IAF and MoD are thinking because only starting work on the follow on 63 once the initial order for 108 units have been completed by HAL would be a wasted opportunity of colossal proportions.

From a numbers point of view it is clear that the EFT consortium could offer more units directly but IIRC didn't Dassualt say they would increase their productive capacity if they received a larger direct order? I think then, in the long term (4-5 years) things between Dassualt and the EFT would equalize as far as production rate are concerned (to a certain degree).

Anyway whilst numbers and production rate are important they aren't the be all and end all of this deal. I still believe that, on balance, the Rafale/ Dassualt offer is superior to that of the EFT consortium one and the Rafale just as a product is more suited and better for the IAF than the EFT.


+ to add, I think that any immediate benefit the EFT consortium may be able to offer with regard to their larger production base would be all but wiped out by the fact it would take a further 2-3 years from whenever the MoD started talks with the consortium to bring about a deal (as we are seeing with the Rafale talks). The point about 18 Rafales by 2017 as opposed to 53 EFTs by 2017 is a moot point as the deal for EFTs wouldn't even be signed by 2017 in all likelihood if talks between the MoD and the EFT consortium begun TODAY. It is very much now or never for the MMRCA deal- all hopes are on the Rafale deal being signed, any permutation of this will result in delays and a very unhappy IAF (and for good reason).


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## sancho

Pichkari said:


> 1] I went through the encyclopedia thread but couldn't find any range for rwr tech in rafale.Do you have any info??
> 
> 2] Can you lock onto an enemy aircraft and fire a missile using this tech??Without radars and irst??
> 
> 3] Many 4th gen aitcrafts have rwr right.So am i correct in understanding that what makes rafale special is "interferometer"



1)You will only find unofficial sources or basic estimates, about detection ranges of several 100Km.

2)If you can precisely locate the target, you can gather it's GPS coordinates and divert them to weapons, which logically easier for stationary targets than for moving once. But Rafale does that basically in SEAD, the RWR can detect a ground radar and gather data from it alone, can direct the FSO or a targetting pod to the target and gain additional data, provide them to the AASM and launch the weapon. Same is possible for a missile too, by giving it basic GPS data for the launch, provide mid course guidance with SPECTRA or FSO until the seeker of the missile itself (be it EM or IR) locks on the target.

3) Yes, advanced RWR that provides geo-location capabilities can make a difference for precise targeting and the interferometry technology adds advantages here, but is not the only technology to do so.
Standard F16s or F18s for example can have RWR too, but for precise targeting in SEAD they need additional systems in special varients (F16 CJ or 18 Growler).
Modern fighters like Rafale or EF integrates these systems in the EWS itself, without the need of special varients or additional pods.



Abingdonboy said:


> What makes you think the Rafales delivered to the IAF wouldn't have



The fact that they are in production now, including software and wiring for the F3+ but without these capabilites and since it would require additional contracts apart of the Rafale deal, for funding of production, integration and testing. Not to mention that most of them might be produced, tested and integrated in India only, just as we integrated Litening, or Topsight HMS to the Mig 29s of IAF and IN in India and the FSO IRST is only „offered“ as an option, as Samtel specboards showed, but it's not in production now and can be added only after the production in India has started again.



Abingdonboy said:


> The point about 18 Rafales by 2017 as opposed to 53 EFTs by 2017 is a moot point as the deal for EFTs wouldn't even be signed by 2017 in all likelihood if talks between the MoD and the EFT consortium begun TODAY.



Come on buddy, don't skip the answer. Besides, that the fighters are already in production and the negotiations would only be with the governments, without the need of industrial partnerships, ToT or offsets negotiations. That part would only apply to the licence production, so you could easily singn the contract by next year and get the first fighters if required, while the negotiation part of the industry an the contract for the licence production would be done simultaneously.

If we could buy more fighters from French forces, it would be a government to government deal aswell and also faster to sign than the industrial part, but as said, that number is very limited and also comes without IRST, HMS or Litening.


So again, if you were the chief and would have to decide on which fighter is better for IAF in operational terms only, which one would you take?

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## DrSomnath999

* Growl & grumble 
from AW& ST Nov 17 2014*








& off the record
during 2012 Nato MACE XIII exercise in slovakia some interesting revelations 
MACE XIII against SA-10 -aka S300-
Ultima Ratio » Blog Archiv » A French Way of SEAD?

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## DrSomnath999

well thanks pal

but plz delete your post i have made corrections

thanks once again

*CHEERS*


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## SQ8

Abingdonboy said:


> + to add, I think that any immediate benefit the EFT consortium may be able to offer with regard to their larger production base would be all but wiped out by the fact it would take a further 2-3 years from whenever the MoD started talks with the consortium



Unless off course they have already done that homework to offer the "catch-up" incentive?


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## sancho

Oscar said:


> Unless off course they have already done that homework to offer the "catch-up" incentive?



Well they didn't which the lack of AESA funding shows, but Saudi funding for Storm Shadow integration and the IS issue possibly forcing the UK to early integrate Brimstone helps.


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## Abingdonboy

Oscar said:


> Unless off course they have already done that homework to offer the "catch-up" incentive?


There's very little they could have done on the outside. The duration of talks until now between Dassualt and the MoD have not been because Dassualt didn't have their act together but because by their very nature this deal is incredibly complex and intricate. The talks with the EFT consortium would be just as long and arduous as we are seeing with Dassualt.


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## nair

Just realised This thread was open in 2005!!!!!!!!!!!!! Today we are about to step in to 2015....... Still the tender not closed........... God bless us!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Krate M

The marine version of rafale is something people are not taking into consideration. Kindly include that versus the paper sea typhoon, I can assure you that it will be taken in to calculations for future aircraft carrier.


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## sancho

nair said:


> Just realised This thread was open in 2005!!!!!!!!!!!!! Today we are about to step in to 2015....... Still the tender not closed........... God bless us!!!!!!!!!!!



Yes, MRCA and M-MRCA, lets hope that things will be done next month, otherwise things might be delayed longer.


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## nair

sancho said:


> Yes, MRCA and M-MRCA, lets hope that things will be done next month, otherwise things might be delayed longer.



I understand the delay in developing (LCA), But this kind of delay is unacceptable.........Now the new govt also spend some time in office.....


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## sancho

Krate M said:


> The marine version of rafale is something people are not taking into consideration. Kindly include that versus the paper sea typhoon, I can assure you that it will be taken in to calculations for future aircraft carrier.



It was an interesting choice, even for Vikramaditya and IAC1, but the follow order of Mig 29s and the pointless aim on N-LCA MK2s, leaves very little hope for Rafale M. It is under consideration for IAC 2, but politics and the carrier design will decide about the used fighters.


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## sancho

nair said:


> I understand the delay in developing (LCA), But this kind of delay is unacceptable.........Now the new govt also spend some time in office.....



I fully support the decision to change to the M-MRCA even with delays and higher costs, but I can't accept the fact that all 6 contenders were accepted for the trials and evaluations, because that had increase the time to finally shortlist the L1 and L2 by far. And I also can't accept the 2 years Dassault took for complying to RFP requirements and bringing up the HAL issue.
Well this government will find it hard to simply decide for Rafale, once because they openly were against it, secondly because they can't simply implement their Make in India policy without creating huge delays as we see in the LUH and SSK tenders. They surely looked at options or alternatives, but the tender is simply too big and too far to start over now, unless there are proper reasons for it.

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## SQ8

sancho said:


> Yes, MRCA and M-MRCA, lets hope that things will be done next month, otherwise things might be delayed longer.



What exactly was going on for ten years!!


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## sancho

Oscar said:


> What exactly was going on for ten years!!



Negotiations to get the most out of the deal basically.


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## nair

sancho said:


> Negotiations to get the most out of the deal basically.



Negotiation was mostly in last 3 years......The other 7 was for evaluation right?


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## SQ8

nair said:


> Negotiation was mostly in last 3 years......The other 7 was for evaluation right?





sancho said:


> Negotiations to get the most out of the deal basically.



How much negotiation was needed? I think its more to do with needless bureaucracy and the fear of not being singled out in case the deal mucks up.


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## nair

Oscar said:


> How much negotiation was needed? I think its more to do with needless bureaucracy and the fear of not being singled out in case the deal mucks up.



More or less....... to add to that the amount involved and chances of corruption.... I think UPA to be blamed for this......


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## sancho

nair said:


> Negotiation was mostly in last 3 years......The other 7 was for evaluation right?



No M-MRCA RFP was send out in 2007 and after the replies, we evaluated the proposals selected the fighters, with the final selection of Rafale in 2012, this 5 year period could had been much shorter, if we had cut some of the proposals in 2009 and send only the most suitable fighters to the trials. The F18SH for example didn't met basic flight performance specs of the RFP, Gripen E or Mig 35 were and are not existent, so evaluating and only 3 contenders logically takes half the time.



Oscar said:


> How much negotiation was needed? I think its more to do with needless bureaucracy and the fear of not being singled out in case the deal mucks up.



Depends on what is on offer, keep in mind that it was the time that the US opened up to India and started promissing political and techincal support that were not available before. It would had been silly of us to not see how far that goes and how beneficial a deal could be for us.
Same goes with European partners, that were better before but fully opened up in this tender. Look at what we get in this deal compared to older Jaguar or M2K deals, where they decided what we can get under what conditions. M-MRCA was the first time, where India was in the position to demand things and had full freedom to choice the best package for it's requirements. The industrial change of foreign companies coming to India, or teaming up with Indian inustry (Boeing set up production plants, Sikorsky and LM forming JV, Saab and Airbus setting up R&D parts in India...) is based on M-MRCA tender and the importance it created. So that alone had made the tender worth it, but of course it could had been done better.

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## DrSomnath999

*Indian Air Force Chief Says Fighter Jet Deal Soon*

The Indian Air Force on Friday expressed hope that the multi-billion contract for 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) would be inked "sooner than later", saying the project is "very important" for it to replace some of the obsolete fleet under its command.

"MMRCA deal is very important for which which we have been stating right from the beginning. Everybody knows, government knows, the public knows (that it is) to replace some of our obsolete fleet which have served the nation well for the last 4-5 decades," Air Force chief Air Marshal Arup Raha said.

He said "though it has taken time", the deal was a planned activity and replacement for the obsolete aircraft that the force has in combat fleet .

"The process is very huge, little complicated. Most of the things have been sorted out and therefore we expect that final stage will progress rapidly and the deal may be signed sooner than later," he said.

French defence major Dassault Aviation was selected by India in January 2012 for supplying 126 Rafale jets to the Indian Air Force.

Dassault Aviation, the French maker of fighter jets, said this month it expects to conclude the deal to supply Rafale planes to India by March.

The final phase of exclusive negotiations on the contract, estimated at $15 billion, should conclude within India's current budget year ending in March 2015, Chief Executive Eric Trappier told reporters in Paris.

The negotiations have lately slowed down over some issues, including the imposition of liquidity damages or penalties for any delay in supply of the aircraft to be manufactured in the country.

India had selected the French Rafale combat aircraft after an over five-year process where five other jets like American F/A-18 and F-16, Russian MiG 35, European Eurofighter and Swedish Saab Gripen were also in the race.

However, the process of finalising the contract has been quite slow and still the role and responsibilities to be shared between the state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) and Dassault Aviation have not been fully agreed upon.

Out of the 126 aircraft to be manufactured for the IAF, 18 are proposed to be supplied directly by the French from their facilities in France whereas the remaining 108 are planned to be built in HAL facilities in Bangalore.

French envoy to India Francois Richier had played down the delay in the finalisation of the much-delayed contract for the supply of Rafale fighter planes, saying that such "complex" issues take time.

On the other hand, UK has said that the Europe-backed Eurofighter could hold negotiations with India for the supply 126 MMRCA.
- See more at: http://www.businessworld.in/news/ec...031/page-1.html#sthash.ARt7BZQi.yjlfBNZb.dpuf


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## SpArK

Indian journalists in N'Djamena Chad to observe French *Rafale* in an operational context

Des journalistes indiens devraient se rendre à N'Djamena afin de promouvoir le Rafale - Defens'Aero


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## SpArK



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## sancho

> *EUROFIGHTER AND NETMA SIGN ONE BILLION EURO RADAR CONTRACT *
> 
> Defence Ministers from the United Kingdom, Germany, Italy and Spain met in Edinburgh, Scotland, on Wednesday 19th November to witness the signing of a €1bn contract for the development of a world-leading electronic radar system for the Eurofighter Typhoon.
> 
> The contract, between Eurofighter Jadgflugzeug GmbH and NETMA, the NATO Eurofighter and Tornado Management Agency (NETMA), will enable the integration of Captor E-Scan, the world’s most advanced Active Electronically Scanned Array Radar System (AESA) onto the Eurofighter Typhoon...



Eurofighter Typhoon | EUROFIGHTER AND NETMA SIGN ONE BILLION EURO RADAR CONTRACT


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## sancho

Rafale and EF mission configs for M-MRCA in 2017/18:

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## raazh

cant believe this topic started 23 Nov 2005 ... 9 years ago ..


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## Derolo

raazh said:


> cant believe this topic started 23 Nov 2005 ... 9 years ago ..



You can thank Manmohan Singh for its long life


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## sancho

> *With AESA Radar, Eurofighter Strengthens Export Push*
> 
> Typhoon added its name to the list of fighters able to offer active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar capability last week when the four European partner nations in the program finally put their signature to an £800 million (US $1.25 billion) deal to develop and integrate the sensor...
> 
> ...“The integration of Captor E-Scan radar is without doubt a game changer, and has a high level of interest from prospective customers,” the Eurofighter executive said.
> 
> Bahrain, Malaysia, Kuwait, Qatar and a possible top-up order from Saudi Arabia are some of the short- to medium-term opportunities for the Eurofighter industry consortium.
> 
> Even the possibility of getting back in the competition to supply India with multirole jet was raised by British Defence Secretary Michael Fallon on a recent visit to New Delhi when he publicly voiced Eurofighter’s readiness to re-enter the competition if negotiations to buy the French Dassault Rafale did not progress.
> 
> The Rafale was selected as the winner of the competition in 2012, but Dassault has not yet sealed the deal — leaving the Eurofighter nations hoping there might yet be a way back to the negotiating table with a revised bid.
> 
> “If making an AESA available on Typhoon helps Airbus and BAE pry the Indian contract away from the Rafale, that would be an impressive achievement,” Aboulafia said.



With AESA Radar, Eurofighter Strengthens Export Push | Defense News | defensenews.com


*Captor-E radar for Eurofighter, 3D animation by Selex ES*:

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## SpArK

*Phoenix ASMPA Renovated, ASN4G, SAF tomorrow*

_





ASMP-A missile from a Rafale B Strategic Air Forces © Cosmao_
With the arrival of ASMPA in 2009 (on Mirage 2000N) and Rafale F3 in 2010, the Strategic Air Forces (SAF) have already received a major upgrade in recent years. This effort will continue as a re Afirme yesterday the Minister of Defence Mr. Jean-Yves Le Drian . 

This has once again announced the next order of A330MRTT "the contract MRTT has successfully passed the final stages of its administrative instruction, and therefore has the necessary arrangements for the notification (...) The contract is going to start,. and the first of twelve aircraft scheduled to be delivered in 2018, according to the LPM. " 
The device is highly anticipated, the fleet of KC-135 tankers being out of breath, most devices have been approved in 1964. The aircraft will be named "Phoenix" in the Air Force.

The modernization of FAS will also involve upgrading the ASMPA MBDA. The stage of development of the ASMPA the renovation program was launched this summer. This is not new, but the confirmation of an expected program.

The DGA and the French Air Force also study solutions for the replacement of the missile through the ASN4G program. According to the minister of defense, this system will be "bold" design and several technologies including stealth and hyper-velocity are studied.


L'ASN4G sera le futur missile des forces aériennes stratégiques - Zone Militaire



















*The ASN4G missile will be the future of the strategic air forces*


*



*

Given the changing international environment, nuclear deterrence is "more relevant than ever" to Jean-Yves Le Drian, the Minister of Defense. He added that those who "hear" the "fundamentally delegitimize nuclear deterrence is the wrong fight."

"We must prevent the generous use a world" without nuclear weapons' prepares a world where only the dictators disposal in "argued the minister, at a conference held on November 20 at the military school, on the occasion of the 50th anniversary of the Strategic Air Forces (SAF). "France is at the forefront of a determined policy of arms control and the fight against proliferation, in the context of international law. It is on this ground that it intends to make real progress to prevent new arms races will engage, "he added.

However, and for the French strategic forces remain credible, it is necessary to modernize.And, while some voices are calling for the suppresion of the airborne component of deterrence to find savings (which remains to be seen ...), Mr Le Drian has vigorously defended by repeating arguments which have already been developed in these columns.

It "provides the political authority a wide range of strategic and military options, with a range of modes of action that gives real flexibility to the entire device. In particular, it contributes greatly upon decision of the President of the Republic, with the exercise of targeted strategic effects, or a final warning strikes', the minister said.

"It also represents, he continued, an ability 'visible', which opens in case of necessity, space for a political and diplomatic maneuver, (...) for the potential adversary generates an additional constraint for its defenses Thanks to the diversity of modes of penetration of our weapons, ballistic or aerobic, aircraft or submarines "and" by the redundancy that results, it puts our nuclear forces from an unexpected breakthrough in this or Such a field. " Finally, "it is moderate, with regard to sovereignty issues," with "about 5% of the budget of deterrence in the next ten years," he added.

As announced by Mr Le Drian, the future of FAS go through the renewal of aircraft C-135FR tanker with 12 A-330 Phoenix. Incidentally, these devices are not only meant to carry out flights related to nuclear deterrence. If it is indispensable, it remains indeed not unless they are also involved in conventional missions. But that's not all.

Last spring, General Denis Mercier, Chief of Staff of the Air Force (CEMAA) had indicated during a hearing on nuclear deterrence, the National Assembly, that work to develop a successor to the missile ASMP-A (Medium Range Air-Sol - Enhanced) was underway. In his speech, the Minister said a little more.

He "was launched last summer dirant the stage of development of the ASMP-A missile renovated. This will provide the component (Airborne) an aerobic missile capable of penetrating all future defenses until 2035, "he began by saying on this subject. "Finally, studies of the successor of ASMPA, called ASN4G have already started," confirmed Mr Le Drian. The question is what does the acronym ASN4G ...

"Bold designs, using for example, the stealth technology or hyper-velocity, at the forefront of developments in technology will be explored," said Minister again, who said "these projects are doubly necessary because that deterrence is meaningful only if it can permanently overcome the prohibition strategies that our opponents might want to implement "and because, on an industrial scale" deterrence has a ripple effect on the all our industrial and technological capabilities. "

"The choice of the future weapons system, consisting of ASN4G missile and an even carrier to define, represents a major challenge for the Armed Forces. I have every confidence in General Denis Mercier and the Delegate General for Armaments Laurent Collet Billon, to guide and inform this record, which is closely related to the future Air Force Size "further explained M . Le Drian.

However, General Mercier has already given its opinion on the technology of choice."Mastering the hypervelocity appears already as a central factor. I note in this connection that the United States, Russia, China, India - countries where the issue of modernizing their airborne nuclear component does not even arise - experimental programs of hyper swift vehicles are driven . I imagine with difficulty that France, which has an established lead in ramjet remains in line with these developments, "he explained in April.

Thus, the ASN4G program should lead to a true technological breakthrough in 2035, to the extent that there is a lot of research to be conducted on the resistance of materials and populseurs. No doubt these will interest manufacturers to potential civil applications in air transport, for example.

Moreover, again by 2035, the 4 submarines nuclear ballistic missile (SSBN) of "The Triumphant" class gradually begin to be replaced by the 3rd generation of SSBNs.Meanwhile, Mr Le Drian confirmed that the ballistic missile M51.2, with dla new oceanic nuclear warhead (TNO) will be deployed from 2016 (on The Triumphant), and the work on the M51.3 were incurred since July.


L'ASN4G sera le futur missile des forces aériennes stratégiques - Zone Militaire


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## DrSomnath999

OK!!

latest issue of FOX 3 issue NOV 2014 is out now
enjoy!!
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/dae/sponsors/sponsor_rafale/img/fox3_18.pdf

too lazy to post snipped pics man!!

why i am so awesome on providing latest info on rafale in various forums i just cant understand




*CHEERS*

Reactions: Like Like:
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## DrSomnath999

*From AWST nov 24 2014*
*




*

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## he-man

DrSomnath999 said:


> OK!!
> 
> latest issue of FOX 3 issue NOV 2014 is out now
> enjoy!!
> http://www.defense-aerospace.com/dae/sponsors/sponsor_rafale/img/fox3_18.pdf
> 
> too lazy to post snipped pics man!!
> 
> why i am so awesome on providing latest info on rafale in various forums i just cant understand
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *CHEERS*



U should be made an analyst here,,,,far too many useless people are selected

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## DrSomnath999

^^
but i am a troll for some here in this forum

*CHEERS*

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## he-man

DrSomnath999 said:


> ^^
> but i am a troll for some here in this forum
> 
> *CHEERS*



I know who u point to,the famous tta who writes long paragraphs,none of which are comprehensible.On the top of that he likes congress


----------



## SpArK

French Defence Minister to visit India | Business Standard News

French Defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian will arrive inIndia on a three-day visit later this month *to hold talks with his counterpart Manohar Parrikar during which the issue of the multi-billion dollar deal for Rafale combat aircraft is likely to come up. *

He will arrive in India on November 30 and hold a series of meetings with top defence and government officials the next day. 

Defence sources said the meeting with Parrikar will take place at the Army Battle Honour Mess rather than at the South Block. 

*This will be Parrikar's first meeting with a foreign dignitary after he took charge of the Defence Ministry earlier this month. *

Though sources said no "restricted meeting" is scheduled,* the aircraft deal is likely to come up as the French government is keen to wrap it up as soon as possible. *

*The sources maintained that specific deals are not discussed in regular meetings. *

Restricted meeting is one when the Ministers meet without officials being present. 

Incidentally, *French Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius had met External Affairs Minister Sushma Swaraj and then Defence Minister Arun Jaitley in June and had pushed for early purchase of Rafale combat jet planes. *

Fabius had said *France hopes that with the new government, which was keen on efficiency, the implementation of the decision will be swift and had expressed confidence of a "positive outcome" to the ongoing negotiations in the deal. *

Asserting that there was a difference in "some time" and "too long", Fabius had said that Rafale meets all the requirements of India, including cutting-edge technology and highest quality. 

India had selected Rafale combat aircraft in a deal estimated to be over Rs 60,000 crore three years ago but the negotiations are still continuing between Indian Defence Ministry and the French firm Dassault Aviation as there have been issues over pricing and work-sharing. 

*The air force has been pitching very hard for the deal to go through and says it urgently needs the twin-engine multi-role fighter to maintain a combat edge against Pakistan. *

*Rafale, which would replace India's Russian-made fleet of MiG-21 and MiG-27 planes, had stood over combat aircraft manufactured by rivals like Boeing and Lockheed Martin.*
*



*

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## he-man

Ab ki baar...................rafale pe sair


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## sancho

@halloweene

Do you have any range specs for visual ID of air targets with the Talios pod as well as the maximum range of imaging?

Btw, OT but seems to be an interesting development for Meteor:


> *Japan, Britain To Collaborate On Meteor Guidance*
> 
> Britain and Japan intend to cooperatively research improvements for the MBDA Meteor, raising the possibility of combining that air-to-air missile’s ramjet propulsion and range with an advanced electronically scanned seeker...



Japan, Britain To Collaborate On Meteor Guidance | AWIN ONLY content from Aviation Week

Would be interesting if that upgrade would be available for export customers too, or if that's a specific upgrade for Japan and the UK?


----------



## war is peace

India will cancel rafael deal for mistral delay latest


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## war is peace

Why don't india china join and do jvs?


----------



## The Unnamed

war is peace said:


> Why don't india china join and do jvs?




maybe because that's something only a dumb person would think ?


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## DrSomnath999

*Rafale F3R offered to belgium*

*Is it an offer they can refuse? As reported in Belgian media these days. Dassault has offered Belgium its latest Rafale model, the Rafale F3 R, as replacement for the Belgian Air Components aging F-16s. The offer includes a major technology transfer between the two countries. Competition however is strong.*

Dassault, which along with Snecma and Thales opened an office in Brussels, says it is able to deliver Rafale F3R aircraft to Belgium from 2018 on. It will include the latest SPECTRA electronic warfare system, BE2 EASA active radar, state of the art laser designation equipment for precision air-to-ground strikes, plus the ability to use METEOR long range air-to-air missile.

France is pumping 1 billion euro into further development of the Rafale. The F3 R standard is, according to Dassult, an evolution of the Rafale F3 standard.
Rafale F3 R offered to Belgium | AIRheads↑FLY

*P.S i just cant understand why cant india get F3R version of rafale why F3 +*


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## sancho

DrSomnath999 said:


> *P.S i just cant understand why cant india get F3R version of rafale why F3 +*



Simply because the RFP initially was aimed on fighters that could be delivered around 2015/16, which is why Dassault offered the F3+, their current production standard. That the tender is delayed and that in the mean time upgrades or lack of capabilities happend, is another issue.
Not to mention that the F3R hardly offer anything important to India, METEOR missile, some radar and avionics upgrades, while most of the upgrades developed for the French forces are aimed on NATO standards and not useful for India anyway. We can get more out of Rafale by customizing the F3+, rather than from the F3R.


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## DrSomnath999

sancho said:


> Simply because the RFP initially was aimed on fighters that could be delivered around 2015/16, which is why Dassault offered the F3+, their current production standard. That the tender is delayed and that in the mean time upgrades or lack of capabilities happend, is another issue.



yeah!! you are correct

the MMRCA deal was kept in F3 + configuration in mind but it's our fault we have delayed signing the deal




sancho said:


> Not to mention that the F3R hardly offer anything important to India, METEOR missile, some radar and avionics upgrades, while most of the upgrades developed for the French forces are aimed on NATO standards and not useful for India anyway. We can get more out of Rafale by customizing the F3+, rather than from the F3R.



Customization of rafale would happen for sure whichever version india gets whehter F3 or F3R like MKI version of Su30

F3R configuration have been created during 2013 for 2018 but still every now & then we see some kind of
new R/D being ordered or signed by the french DGA

like that ESM /EA version of RBE 2 aesa radar plus
various other studies like expendables decoys, Improved engine , improved sensor fusion

i do beleive this thing integration in F3R can be feasible it' not mandatory for F4 only

so F3R configuration is not that ordinary as it sounds on articles

actually 1st batch of rafale what we would be getting should be around end of 2016 or beginning of 2017

meanwhile metoer integration for rafale is planned around 2018

so F3+ was the future model for french at that time of evaluation during 2009 -10 but now due to delay F3R is turnout to be future model & f3+
present version

present version if we get now we would be getting less compare to price

Simple example is
*spectra NG compare to spectra for F3+ & other things are also there*

*what i wish was to get atleast SPECTRA NG with GaN tech with expendable RF decoys on our rafales *

datalink & IFF upgrades in F3R are no use to us i agree

but main improvements on various other things like radar(MuLti role) , could have helped us why a get a basic variant of RBE 2 aesa radar only

now if we edit it french might hike the price 






*CHEERS*


----------



## sancho

DrSomnath999 said:


> but it's our fault we have delayed signing the deal



No it's not, but mainly Dassault's fault, because they delayed things for the last 2 years now. 




DrSomnath999 said:


> like that ESM /EA version of RBE 2 aesa radar plus
> various other *studies* like expendables decoys, Improved engine , improved sensor fusion



And that's the difference now, while Dassault and Co are mainly studying upgrades for the MLU around 2025, the current real upgrades are not really big game changers. If we add IRST, HMS and SATCOM according to halloween, it changes the capabilities of the Rafale F3+ much more, than additional radar modes, or avionics upgrades in the F3R for systems that already exist. The RBE 2 AESA might be better then, just as SPECTRA jamming with GaN modules, but the way Rafale is used doesn't change, while a proper IRST channel and HMS does. 
Btw, the EF might get it's Captor E with EA capability (possibly even with GaN modules), the Brite Cloud active EM decoy by 2019 when the UK replace their specified SEAD Tornados and I wouldn't even be surprised if they can add DIRCM by then too. 



DrSomnath999 said:


> so F3+ was the future model for french at that time of evaluation during 2009 -10 but now due to delay F3R is turnout to be future model & f3+
> present version



Which would require a new evaluation of the capabilities that are on offer now for the new timefram, just as I would prefer it, but then the Rafale might not be the best choice anymore.


----------



## sancho

> ...Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar said during question hour in the Lok Sabha that government was for manufacturing defence equipment in India...
> 
> ...Referring to the proposed acquisitions such as of medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA), the minister said the government will stick to the process that have been finalized.
> 
> "*Where defence acquisitions have almost come to end stage, we will stick to RFP (request for proposal)," he said.*
> 
> However, he said India will seek to derive maximum benefit where defence equipment was being imported...



Steps taken to boost indigenisation: Manohar Parrikar | Zee News


Important statement, since that rules out any change of the competition to bring back fighters that were not shortlisted, but also might rule out a new evaluation of Rafale and EF according to the new time line and capabilities around 2018. Now it's all in Dassaults hand to get things done finally, by getting to speedy solutions in the price negotiations.


----------



## ACE OF THE AIR

sancho said:


> Steps taken to boost indigenisation: Manohar Parrikar | Zee News
> 
> 
> Important statement, since that rules out any change of the competition to bring back fighters that were not shortlisted, but also might rule out a new evaluation of Rafale and EF according to the new time line and capabilities around 2018. Now it's all in Dassaults hand to get things done finally, by getting to speedy solutions in the price negotiations.



Does't this indicate re opening of the tender and bidding once again?


----------



## sancho

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Does't this indicate re opening of the tender and bidding once again?



His statement? No, since the RFP was clear that we select the L1 and then move on with negoations just with it, unless the vendor fail to comply to the RFP requirements.


----------



## DrSomnath999

sancho said:


> No it's not, but mainly Dassault's fault, because they delayed things for the last 2 years now.



naah !!

it's somewhat both's fault .

Dassault doesnt want to accept the gaurantee clause which says dasssault should give gaurantee on rafale's produced by HAL which is unaccpetable to them .

PLus meanwhile there were financial issues from our side during .
& thin skinned antony always shyed away from taking big decisions

& it's very lengthy procedure when you sign such kind of huge deals & every one knows it 








sancho said:


> And that's the difference now, while Dassault and Co are mainly studying upgrades for the *MLU around 2025,* the current real upgrades are not really big game changers. If we add *IRST, HMS and SATCOM *according to halloween, it changes the capabilities of the Rafale F3+ much more, than additional radar modes, or avionics upgrades in the F3R for systems that already exist. The RBE 2 AESA might be better then, just as SPECTRA jamming with GaN modules,* but the way Rafale is used doesn't change,*while a proper IRST channel and HMS does.



but EA/ESM version& spectra NG is for F3R version & i have said clearly before not all studies are for MLU some may be for F3R also 

& yves (Halloweene) if he can post me the october issue of AIR FAN october 2014 issue then i can post you the entire program of F3R

the prevoius air international magazine issue on rafale F3R is insufficient report 

IRST /HMS were part of the MMRCA deal from the very beginning it has nothing to do with what ever version india gets only satcom i cant say were part of the deal or not

but Additional radar modes /Spectra NG are more critcal than current one .

* but the way Rafale is used doesn't change,*
& now what does that mean??

ok whatever it may be
i like to tell you that those 2 things what i have stated is also critical why?
becoz one should keep future threats in mind

1) Chinese would be fielding AESA radar in their planes so having more powerful systems like SPECTRA NG would
be very helpful as current version might not be sufficent for aesa jamming

2)Chinese acquisation of long range SAM like S400 & simliar version of SAMs we need an EA version of RBE 2 aesa version so that rafale doesnt need external jamming pods to do such kind of tasks
meanwhile freeing additional weapon pods which would already have been filled up with 2/3 drop tanks in long range
mission to china
So It can carry it's weapon load 2 stand off cruise missile& 6 bvraams










sancho said:


> Btw, the EF might get it's Captor E with EA capability (possibly even with GaN modules), the Brite Cloud active EM decoy by 2019 when the UK replace their specified SEAD Tornados and I wouldn't even be surprised if they can add DIRCM by then too.



again some over optimistic predications nothing else

1) *Captor E with EA capabilty is for britain* but we gonna fund it from our pockets to develop it for selves for extra EA capabilty
& it might not be inducted before 2020 for bright adder programme

& regarding GaN T/R modules on captor E plz dont swallow that Garbage chris pollock article on AIN online .com
as it is directly from horse's mouth i.e from consortium gruop brochure
http://s25.postimg.org/yw10vn1nz/E_captor_aesa_road_map.jpg

no where it is mentioned about GaN T/R modules on captor e future potential rather an important point of bistatic radar concept which is a promising thing agaisnt stealth target

2)brite cloud deal has not been signed yet but french have LEA program for that only

3)*DIRCM by 2019*
lollz
rather rafale's DDM NG is compatible with DIRCM but they have to develop a system separately for DIRCM on typhoon






sancho said:


> Which would require a new evaluation of the capabilities that are on offer now for the new timefram, just as I would prefer it, but then the *Rafale might not be the best choice anymore.*



if india would evaluate everthing before it buys it then judging by the pace of indian evaluations anything which india
buys after evaluation would have become obsolete by that time 

*i know very well which other plane you are indirectly referring to would have been the best choice by that time in comparision to rafale *

*""let me make it very clear to you that other plane is a pile of economic mess nothing else obscured by a load of problems which you cant see ""*


*CHEERS*


----------



## sancho

DrSomnath999 said:


> *Dassault doesnt want to accept* the gaurantee clause which says dasssault should give gaurantee on rafale's produced by HAL which is unaccpetable to them



That's their problem not ours, the RFP was clearly stated in 2007, if they couldn't accept that, they shouldn't have joined the tender, as simple as that. But that's not the issue, since they have no issue with HAL as they constantly say as well, it's just a matter of diverting workshare, nothing else.



DrSomnath999 said:


> IRST /HMS were part of the MMRCA deal from the very beginning it has nothing to do with what ever version india gets only satcom i cant say were part of the deal or not



That are required capabilities by us, but since they are neither in production, nor fully implemented, Dassault and Co only offers them to either divert them as part of the offsets or as a customization, but all of them comes at additional costs for us, not by Dassault or France. That's why the Rafale gets more capable with us selecting it and funding these upgrades, than by upgrading the already existing radar with some more modes or the performance of the existing jammers.




DrSomnath999 said:


> again some over optimistic predications nothing else
> 
> 1) *Captor E with EA capabilty is for britain* but we gonna fund it from our pockets to develop it for selves for extra EA capabilty
> & it might not be inducted before 2020 for bright adder programme



Wrong, it's funded and developed by the UK but available to the partners and we had the partnership on offer. That program was meant for the Tornado replacement and as a back up if the EF partners keeps delaying the AESA development and is not a new program.



DrSomnath999 said:


> no where it is mentioned about GaN T/R modules on captor e future potential rather an important point of bistatic radar concept which is a promising thing agaisnt stealth target



It doesn't even mention GaAs modules, so do you conclude that it doesn't even have them either? 
The idea of adding GaN was mentioned from several Euroradar / EF consortium officials, the issue is only when it will be added and at what costs? The point is, Captor E doesn't need GaN modules to have credible performance for detection, the size of the radar combined with the re-positioner makes even a GaAs based AESA more than capable and most likely superior to RBE 2 AESA. But since the UK and possibly some of the partners are aiming on using the radar for jamming too, GaN modules would give far more performance especially for the SEAD roles.
The early Captor E was always aimed on export customers, that's why the EF consortium offered even the premature version to the Saudis or us around 2015 and with cost-effective GaAs modules, while later versions for the upgrades of the partner EFs, were meant to be more capable and that's where GaN is meant to be included, depending on what the partners want at the end.



DrSomnath999 said:


> 2)brite cloud deal has not been signed yet but french have LEA program for that only



There is no deal to be signed, since it's part of the Selex developments, which are not only on offer for the EF, but also for the Gripen, so it's not an EF specific upgrade while LEA is part of the Rafale EW upgrade.



DrSomnath999 said:


> 3)*DIRCM by 2019*
> lollz
> rather rafale's DDM NG is compatible with DIRCM but they have to develop a system separately for DIRCM on typhoon



You might want to check for PIMAWS, not to mention that the compability of DDM NG to DRICM doesn't make it somehow available and so far it doesn't seems to be part of the F3R upgrade, which delayes that capability to the MLU upgrade as well.

*


DrSomnath999 said:



i know very well which other plane you are indirectly referring to would have been the best choice by that time in comparision to rafale

Click to expand...

*
Lol since there are only 2 fighters shortlisted, it shouldn't be that hard to understand it, besides that I showed the advantages of the coming EF upgrades several times here* *
The Rafale is the best fighter today and according the initial RFP time line, but will soon surpassed by EF in some areas and even completelly if the UK gets the partners to fund and integrate CFTs. Only the Rafale MLU will then bring new game changer capabilities again, but that's a decade away.


----------



## DrSomnath999

sancho said:


> That are required capabilities by us, but since they are neither in production, nor fully implemented, Dassault and Co only offers them to either divert them as part of the offsets or as a customization, *but all of them comes at additional costs for us,* not by Dassault or France. *That's why the Rafale gets more capable with us selecting it and funding these upgrades, than by upgrading the already existing radar with some more modes or the performance of the existing jammers*.



thats wrong 

becoz it was a part of MMRCA deal & FSO had iRST channel but FSO IT lacks IRST channel but upgraded TV channel/laser range finder
& rafale pilots had HMD available to them but that was not their priority 

we dont need to fund extra at all as it part of deal & also no big deal to develop jointly with them & we have already made an aggreement to it 

*& one cannot compare the GaN tech potential of spectra NG & EA /ESM capabilty of rbe 2 aesa radar with that IRST /HMD capabilty in combat *









sancho said:


> Wrong, it's funded and developed by the UK *but available to the partners* and we had the partnership on offer. That program was meant for the Tornado replacement and as a back up if the EF partners keeps delaying the AESA development and is not a new program.



really !!
*No it's not* as no partner states are interested for EA capabilty of CAptor E other than Britain.They were even satisfied with Captor M & intially were reluctant also to invest in Captor E aesa radar 
but to compete in international market & to face future threats they have to invest in Captor E aesa radar

yeah we have to fund on our own if we have select it which we wont be doing in RBE 2 aesa radar .







sancho said:


> *It doesn't even mention GaAs modules, so do you conclude that it doesn't even have them either?*
> The idea of adding GaN was mentioned from several Euroradar / EF consortium officials, the issue is only when it will be added and at what costs? The point is, Captor E doesn't need GaN modules to have credible performance for detection, the size of the radar combined with the re-positioner makes even a* GaAs based AESA more than capable and most likely superior to RBE 2 AESA. *








from
http://s25.postimg.org/yw10vn1nz/E_captor_aesa_road_map.jpg

& i am still sure even after posting that pic you still cant see about GaAS modules

NO where it is claimed by Euroradar / EF consortium officials, that it is going to have GaN t/r modules for it's radar as they know it's basic GaAS t/R modules can also give a better detection range than RBE 2 aesa radar due to larger radar aperature 

it is for Rafale a must have tech for enhanced detection range & EA capability due to smaller radar aperature










sancho said:


> There is no deal to be signed, since it's part of the Selex developments, which are not only on offer for the EF, but also for the Gripen, so it's not an EF specific upgrade while LEA is part of the Rafale EW upgrade.



actually my fault i didnt state it clearly in my prevoius post that it' for both typhoon /gripen .

BUt the fact selex is aggresively marketing for Gripen & it would have it


BUt typhoon it depends upon partners/ customers who want to have it or not as they already have TOWED decoys on their wing tips with releasable EM decoys but through fiber optic cable.

thats why i have stated it needs to be signed which partner wants it 





sancho said:


> You might want to check for PIMAWS, not to mention that the compability of DDM NG to DRICM doesn't make it somehow available and so far it doesn't seems to be part of the F3R upgrade, which delayes that capability to the MLU upgrade as well.


TYphoon rear based passive MAWs have DIRCM capability or not is no where avaiable in the net atleast i didnt find it or too lazy to find it whatever way you can take it

But if you have anyhting related to it plz post it (THanks in adavnce for that) 

& yes DIRCM capabilty is not for F3R might be for MLU / or rafale NG but it is capable 




sancho said:


> Lol since there are only 2 fighters shortlisted, it shouldn't be that hard to understand it, besides that I showed the advantages of the coming EF upgrades several times here* *
> The Rafale is the best fighter today and according the initial RFP time line, *but will soon surpassed by EF in some areas and even completelly if the UK gets the partners to fund and integrate CFTs*. Only the Rafale MLU will then bring new game changer capabilities again, but that's a decade away.



some adavantages of typhoon were there from very beginning it has nothing to do with tranches /upgrades 

but some adavantages in capabilty would happen when they installed new systems but 

"easiaer said than done"

*what you see is the rosy picture from outside but inside after proper evaluations only one can assess those capabilties which might not be so rosy as you think*

BTW CFTS also had issues with TYphoon & was published in net 

i had also explained it quite well in IDF but yes you are not active nowadays on that forum so how would you know

*CHEERS*

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## Stephen Cohen

Negotiations with Eurofighter would have taken far longer than it is taking for Rafale
because four countries are involved

And since Eurofighter had achieved export success in Saudi Arabia
they would have been less accommodative towards Indian demands


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## he-man

Stephen Cohen said:


> Negotiations with Eurofighter would have taken far longer than it is taking for Rafale
> because four countries are involved
> 
> And since Eurofighter had achieved export success in Saudi Arabia
> they would have been less accommodative towards Indian demands


True.
Not to forget all are poodles of usa especially uk which is esentially a colony of usa


----------



## DrSomnath999

*EXCLUSIVE: Specifically Why India's Rafale Deal Is Held Up*


So, as I mentioned in my earlier post, sticking points in negotiations between Dassault Aviation and HAL remain the chief reason why a draft contract hasn't reached finality. There have been a few reports that point to general difficulties in negotiations between HAL and Dassault on liability for the 108 aircraft that the former will license build in Bangalore. What you probably haven't heard about are the specific stumbling blocks. There are basically three:


Responsibility for the 108 aircraft in terms of liability, damages and attendant clauses on access, inspection and post-manufacture testing. Dassault's concern is that HAL hasn't built up any of the fixed assets which the company feels would be the minimum requirement to begin discussing the modalities of the kind of liability HAL wants Dassault to take on for the jets built in India. With the last 60 aircraft to be as much as 90% 'Made in India', 
The ball is apparently in HAL's court, with Dassault telling the Cost Negotiation Committee (CNC) that it still awaits figures from HAL on the financial specifics of the liability it is seeking to transfer to Dassault. Dassault has asked HAL to clarify the specifics of any similar liability parameters in comparable deals like HAL's Su-30 MKI production line on license from Russia.
Modalities of licensee/licensor and the manner in which the final agreement sets down their roles. Things are actually more contentious than most believe/report. Dassault has even flagged up issues with access to HAL's facilities.
Done and dusted clauses of the exhaustive contract cover pretty much all other aspects. The company's aversion for HAL manifested itself two years ago when it was revealed that Dassault wanted to built some of its aircraft with Reliance Industries' new defence business. With an irritated HAL putting its foot down and asserting itself as the principal production partner, the relationship between the two has been, well, uncertain at best. Both sides will be looking to new leadership at the MoD to get things moving.
LIVEFIST: EXCLUSIVE: Specifically Why India's Rafale Deal Is Held Up


----------



## sancho

DrSomnath999 said:


> thats wrong
> 
> becoz it was a part of MMRCA deal



Again, it was part of the "offer" for MMRCA, but since IRST is not in production anymore, it can be provided only by diverting the production to India and that causes additional costs, that's why the Samtel specboards only show FSO-IT but gives the IR channel as optional. Same goes for HMS, which is part of the "offer" but is not integrated, so causes additional costs if we want it. 
Btw, that would had been 2 logical areas where the French should had included us in the F3R upgrade development, since we then could have jointly developed an upgraded IRST system or a joint HMS for both forces. For us the Topsight version that Samtel already produces might be the logical choice now, while the French forces prefered one of Sagem and won't buy the Topsight even if we fund the integration and production. 



DrSomnath999 said:


> & one cannot compare the GaN tech potential of spectra NG & EA /ESM capabilty of rbe 2 aesa radar with that IRST /HMD capabilty in combat



Who is comparing them? I'm just stating that the one is an upgrade of an already existing capability, while the other adds a new capability and that's clearly preferable to make the fighter more capable.



DrSomnath999 said:


> *but to compete in international market & to face future threats they have to invest in Captor E aesa radar*




If that would had been the case, they would had funded the AESA for MMRCA years ago and not now when there is only very limited export potential left, so that's not the case. They funded the AESA development as planned in time for the EF T2 and T3 upgrade from 2018 onwards. That's why the partners didn't wanted to fund the AESA earlier, because they don't needed it earlier than 2019, since the EF with Captor M can use Meteor too and offers good performance anyway. Italy for example will replace SEAD capable Tornados by then too and they keep reducing their F35 orders just as the UK as well, which makes it more than likely that they gear their EFs for SEAD jointly with the UK again. Germany and Spain are seperate issues though, but then again, that doesn't matter for us, important was only, that if we went for the partnership, such techs could had been available for us too. 





DrSomnath999 said:


> & i am still sure even after posting that pic you still cant see about GaAS modules



Well I logically looked at the marked part of that picture but as I already said, the GaAs in their early radar versions was clear and stated by officials too, since costs were meant to be kept low to attract exports. For the EA capability and the partner AESAs however that's another story and now with the AESA funded in general, the rest is only an upgrade, adding additional capabilities, replacing GaAs modules with GaN, just like the SPECTRA jammers will be upgraded too. 




DrSomnath999 said:


> BUt typhoon it depends upon partners/ customers who want to have it or not as they already have TOWED decoys on their wing tips with releasable EM decoys but through fiber optic cable.



Brite Cloud will replace the towed decoy system, because it's more effective since you have several decoys and more secure, since the decoy act separately of the fighter itself. So it's just the next logical upgrade of that system. But as said, it's not developed specifically for the EF, contrary to Rafales upgrades.



DrSomnath999 said:


> TYphoon rear based passive MAWs have DIRCM capability or not is no where avaiable in the net



PIMAWS is not radar based but IR similar to DDM NG, the older links that I saved doesn't work anymore, but you can read the infos here too:

www.portierramaryaire.com • Ver Tema - EF-2000 Eurofighter Typhoon

And it stated DIRCM capability as well. 




DrSomnath999 said:


> BTW CFTS also had issues with TYphoon & was published in net



That needs to be seen, but that still doesn't change the fact that the EF then will offer the same range of operations like the Rafale, which today is one of the key disadvantages (just a single 1000l fuel tank in CM strikes). Moreover, it will be able to replace all 3 external fuel tanks with CFTs only, no matter in which role, while the capacity of Rafales CFTs allows only the replacement of the supersonic fuel tanks in A2A roles, but it A2G it always needs to add a fuel tank again. The EF with CFTs will simply be fully multi role capable, since that's the only way to counter it's design flaws, but when that's done, it's increases the capabilities by far.


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## sancho

Stephen Cohen said:


> Negotiations with Eurofighter would have taken far longer than it is taking for Rafale
> because four countries are involved
> 
> And since Eurofighter had achieved export success in Saudi Arabia
> they would have been less accommodative towards Indian demands



I think it's the other way around, since it's not the 4 countries we have to negotiate with, but with the consortium companies Airbus, BAE... and they are far bigger than Dassault and have already existing links in India. BAE for example surely would benefit from the industrial links and experience it already has with HAL and the HAWK production. Airbus has JVs with many Indian privat partners, Rolls Royce with HAL..., so they might had needed less time than Dassault and Co to comply to the offset requirements. 
Moreover, the simple fact that they wanted to make us a partner contrary to the export customer status that Dassault gives us, clearly shows the different in regard of India. Not to mention that a deal with us, would had saved the partner countries a lot of money, since we basically had taken over their T3B orders and now they have to pay penalities the around 120 fighters they cancelled. 
If they had played it smarter, they could had sealed the deal, especially now after the elections, but now it might be too late.


----------



## DrSomnath999

sancho said:


> Again, it was part of the "offer" for MMRCA, but since IRST is not in production anymore, it can be provided only by diverting the production to India and that causes additional costs, that's why the Samtel specboards only show FSO-IT but gives the IR channel as optional. Same goes for HMS, which is part of the "offer" but is not integrated, so causes additional costs if we want it.
> Btw, that would had been 2 logical areas where the French should had included us in the F3R upgrade development, since we then could have jointly developed an upgraded IRST system or a joint HMS for both forces. For us the Topsight version that Samtel already produces might be the logical choice now, while the French forces prefered one of Sagem and won't buy the Topsight even if we fund the integration and production.


Those 2 things costs should be included within that deal itself .If extra costs is applied that would be minimal .

why are you portraying such things to be so out of world things that is going to be integrated in rafale that gonna cost us so much that price of rafale would have been half if those things would have not been integrated at all.

BTW Halloweene had stated before HMD have been integrated recently most probably for export market in air fan magazine issue

& also if India & france team up to build next gen IRST (QWIP based) according to PIC oil of IDF then that good for
india as it would be installed in all future planes which includes FFGA/LCA mark 2 so long run it gonna be profitable for us.



sancho said:


> Who is comparing them? I'm just stating that the one is an upgrade of an already existing capability, *while the other adds a new capability and that's clearly preferable to make the fighter more capable*.




SPECTRA NG & EA/ESM version of RBE 2 aesa radar= upgrade of an already existing capabilty

& meanwhile
IRST & HMD =New capability & more capable


Pffft!!!

why??

ans
1)french in FSO IT deliberatly removed IRST due to obsolensce & also ideal range of IRST was 80-90km at best as i dont beleive those claims of 130km which looks absurd

meanwhile they upgraded FSO tV range to 60-65km & omitted IRST channel

so what new capabilty i just cant understand



2)Topsight helmet lacks voice command unlike Typhoon HMSS which would have added an enhanced capabilty but not in case of topsight


meanwhile

SPECTRA NG with GaN modules would give enhanced jamming & improved passive detection compare to prevoius
SPectra which would very crucial against AESA radar based aerial threats in future combat

&
EA / ESM version of RBE 2 aesaa radar is not a mere upgrade to existing capabilty at all.

rather it would be crucial for future SEAD mission agaisnt a high threat future enemys














sancho said:


> If that would had been the case, they would had funded the AESA for MMRCA years ago and not now when there is only very limited export potential left, so that's not the case. They funded the AESA development as planned in time for the EF T2 and T3 upgrade from 2018 onwards.


& that was their mistake & mis management from their side as RBE 2 aesa radar / air to ground capabilty give the
rafale clear edge of typhoon in MMRCA as who would have waited for 2018 to have those capabilty

which even JOn lake also admitted .

& saudis have clearly stated that next block of typhoon should have aesa radar , so do OMAN!!

& once they have operational aesa radar /A-G capabi;ty their export potential would enhance further








sancho said:


> *Well I logically looked at the marked part of that picture but as I already said,* the GaAs in their early radar versions was clear and stated by officials too, since costs were meant to be kept low to attract exports. For the EA capability and the partner AESAs however that's another story and now with the AESA funded in general, the rest is only an upgrade, adding additional capabilities, replacing GaAs modules with GaN, just like the SPECTRA jammers will be upgraded too.



well how can someone expect GaAS tech to be mentioned in future potential of an aesa radar as even basic aesa radar nowadays have GaAs tech!!








sancho said:


> *Brite Cloud will replace the towed decoy system*, because it's more effective since you have several decoys and more secure, since the decoy act separately of the fighter itself. So it's just the next logical upgrade of that system. But as said, it's not developed specifically for the EF, contrary to Rafales upgrades.


no !!

it wont replace but might be used in addition to it .

i have asked many members about it






sancho said:


> *PIMAWS is not radar based* but IR similar to DDM NG,



as if i had said it is radar based in my previous post 
passive MAWS by default someone should intepret IR based maws



sancho said:


> the older links that I saved doesn't work anymore, but you can read the infos here too:
> 
> www.portierramaryaire.com • Ver Tema - EF-2000 Eurofighter Typhoon
> 
> And it stated DIRCM capability as well.



yeah the pdf link in that post is not working
But anyways thanks for the effort though

but still not sure this thing or something else might be integrated , though tranche 3 is suppose to installed with rear based passive maws.







sancho said:


> That needs to be seen, but that still doesn't change the fact that the EF then will offer the same range of operations like the Rafale, which today is one of the key disadvantages (just a single 1000l fuel tank in CM strikes). *Moreover, it will be able to replace all 3 external fuel tanks with CFTs only, no matter in which role, while the capacity of Rafales CFTs allows only the replacement of the supersonic fuel tanks in A2A roles, but it A2G it always needs to add a fuel tank again. *The EF with CFTs will simply be fully multi role capable, since that's the only way to counter it's design flaws, but when that's done, it's increases the capabilities by far.



i didnt get this point at all plz clarify that part


*CHEERS*


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## halloweene

Some good news, "off" information : industrialization process is on track. DA is recruiting people for indian/french coordination...

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## DrSomnath999

*FROM RAF ANNUAL REVIEW 2015*







this part is interesting as RAF dont give 1st priority to CFTs 

then what about LONG RANGE missions A/G loadout ????

*CHEERS*


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## PARIKRAMA

*France pushes for Rafale deal, but talks still stuck*
Rajat Pandit,TNN | Dec 2, 2014, 12.47 AM IST


NEW DELHI: India and France have decided to step-up bilateral cooperation in counter-terrorism and maritime security as well as hold a major aero-naval exercise in the Indian Ocean early next year, signaling their intent to further bolster their "strategic partnership".





The French jet had then gone ahead to beat the Eurofighter — backed by the UK, Germany, Spain and Italy — in January 2012 both on direct acquisition costs as well as* “life-cycle costs'' of operating the fighters over a 40-year timeframe.*

But what could be the biggest project between the two, the almost $20 billion MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft) project for 126 Rafale fighters, remains stuck in the final stretch of negotiations. The two sides, however, resolved to sort out the 'differences' in a 'fast-track' manner, sources said on Monday. 

Visiting French defence minister Jean-Yves Le Drian held talks with his Indian counterpart Manohar Parrikar on Monday evening on a wide spectrum of issues, ranging from France's military operations and development strategies in Mali, Sahel and Iraq to the *Hollande government's keen interest in PM Narendra Modi's 'Make in India' policy. *

But all eyes were firmly on the MMRCA project, with Le Drian pushing for an early inking of the gigantic fighter project. The complex MMRCA negotiations have been deadlocked for the last several months due to French major Dassault Aviation's refusal to take "full responsibility" for the 108 fighters to be manufactured in India by Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL), as was earlier reported by TOI. 

Defence sources on Monday said the "status quo" persisted in the talks. "Dassault so far is unwilling to give the commitment for the 108 fighters as far as liquidity damages and timelines are concerned," said a source.

*"Dassault, after talking to HAL, has to agree to it since it was specified in the original tender or RFP (request for proposal). It has to be fully compliant with the RFP. There is no getting away from this," he added. *

The Rafale and Eurofighter Typhoon had thrashed the American F/A-18 'Super Hornet' and F-16 'Super Viper', Swedish Gripen and Russian MiG-35 in the extensive field trials held by the IAF after the RFP was floated in August 2007. 

The French jet had then gone ahead to beat the Eurofighter — backed by the UK, Germany, Spain and Italy — in January 2012 both on direct acquisition costs as well as "life-cycle costs'' of operating the fighters over a 40-year timeframe. 

But the project, under which the first 18 jets are to be imported and the rest manufactured in India with technology transfer, is yet to be sealed. Incidentally, e*ven though the Eurofighter is eager to fly back into contention, Indian defence procurement rules do not allow any comebacks in such a project. *

India, of course, remains steadfast about its strategic partnership with France, the only major western power which did not impose sanctions after the 1998 Pokhran-2 nuclear tests. Apart from supporting India's bid for permanent membership of the UN Security Council, France is one of the biggest arms suppliers to this country. 

The armed forces from the two countries also conduct regular military exercises -- the naval 'Varuna', the air 'Garuda' and the land 'Shakti' wargames. India and France will now hold a major aero-naval exercise under the Varuna series off the coast of Goa in April 2015, which is likely to see the participation of the French nuclear-powered aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle.








Link
France pushes for Rafale deal, but talks still stuck - The Times of India

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## Gabriel92

*Vente d'avions Rafale : la France et l'Inde d'accord pour finaliser le contrat

Sale of Rafale: France and India agree to finalize the contract*
*



France will perhaps finally manage to export the Rafale combat aircraft from Dassault Aviation. On Monday, the Defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian met his Indian counterpart Manohar Parrikar, in office since November.


They agreed, according to Reuters, to overcome their differences in order to finalize a contract, valued at $ 15 billion (€ 12 billion) for the sale of 126 Rafale.

"The two sides agreed to advance the strategic cooperation between the two countries. All subjects were discussed, including the Rafale. It was decided that any remaining disagreements would be resolved in an expedited manner, "said a spokesman for the Department of Indian Defence.

For nearly three years, the French manufacturer and India have entered into exclusive negotiations on the contract. The talks were delayed because of disagreements on the cost and work sharing.

The deal, potentially first picked for export by the Rafale since its launch in 1989, provides for the production of the first 18 aircraft in France. They would then be sent to India where 108 other planes would be assembled by the Indian public company Hindustan Aeronautics.

Eric Trappier, CEO of Dassault Aviation, explained there nearly a month Reuters that the signature of this contract by March 2015 was a "reasonable goal".

Click to expand...


*

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## Aepsilons

@Gabriel92 , so they agreed to lower it from $20 billion to $15 billion. Not bad !

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## mehboobkz

*NEW DELHI* — India will fast-track the finalization of the *US $12 billion plan* to purchase 126 Dassault Rafale jets, according to a senior Indian Defense Ministry official, almost three years after India made Dassault its preferred bidder.

The news follows Monday evening talks between Indian Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar and his visiting French counterpart, Jean-Yves Le Drian.

The Indian MoD official refused to give details on how the two sides will resolve differences holding back the finalization of the negotiations in the run up to the inking of the contract. He did say that the two defense ministers agreed that all issues that are irritants will be sorted out by the end of this year so t*he deal can be finalized by the end of the financial year ending March 31.*

The crucial issue that needs to be solved is the insistence by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) to give guarantee on the delivery schedule of the Rafales that will be license-produced at HAL. *Another issue relates to bringing down the cost of Indian-made Rafales.*

A second MoD official said the sides are discussing what currency will be used to purchase the 18 aircraft built by Dassault in France, and how HAL could be protected against currency fluctuations. The details are not known, but the two defense ministers agreed to accommodate each other to bring down the cost of the Indian-made aircraft.

The 2008 request for proposal for the jets stipulates that 18 aircraft will be bought in fly-by-wire condition and the remaining 108 will be built by HAL on a license-production basis.

Contract negotiations between India’s MoD, HAL and Dassault of France have been underway since 2012, after the Rafale was selected as the preferred aircraft over the Eurofighter Typhoon. However, dozens of meetings between the Indian and French sides have failed to close the deal because the French have refused to give guarantees on the delivery schedule of the aicraft that will be produced in India.

Source : Defense News
India, France Agree to Finalize Rafale Deal by Spring | Defenceradar News

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## drunken-monke

*India and France to push ahead with Rafale jet deal*
(Reuters) - The French and Indian defence ministers agreed on Monday to overcome any differences and finalise the sale of 126 fighter jets to India in a deal worth an estimated $15 billion, the Indian defence ministry said.

France's Dassault Aviation (AVMD.PA) has been trying to clinch a deal to sell India its Rafale jets since New Delhi chose the company over other foreign plane manufacturers in 2012. But disagreements over cost and work-sharing have slowed talks, while India's weak economy has stretched government finances.

On Monday, French Defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian met his Indian counterpart Manohar Parrikar, who was appointed defence minister last month.

"Both sides agreed to take forward the strategic co-operation between the two countries. They discussed all issues including Rafale. It was decided that whatever differences still existed would be resolved in a fast-track manner," said Indian defence ministry spokesman Sitanshu Kar.

Under the deal, which would provide a major boost to French domestic defence manufacturing, the first 18 planes will be made in France and shipped to India, while the remaining 108 will be produced by state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd.

The final phase of exclusive negotiations on the contract should conclude within India's current budget year ending in March 2015, Dassault Chief Executive Eric Trappier said last month.

Rival manufacturers including the makers of the Eurofighter aircraft are hoping that the stalled Rafale deal will collapse, possibly opening the door to negotiations with a new vendor.



(Reporting by Nigam Prusty; Writing by Tommy Wilkes; Editing by Pravin Char)

India and France to push ahead with Rafale jet deal| Reuters

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## jarves

Nihonjin1051 said:


> @Gabriel92 , so they agreed to lower it from $20 billion to $15 billion. Not bad !


No one knows the exact cost of this deal.Indian media is just speculating as usual.We will only know the costs when the deal is signed.


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## PARIKRAMA

Finally 15 Bn $$$.... that too published in reuters
@Abingdonboy - for long you had said this figure... finally now the world knows you were always right in quoting the size of contract. Now we also know how ppl made it 20-22 Bn $$ and made a story out saying its costly

Tell me if i am wrong but 15 Bn/126 = 119 Mn $ as lifetime cost along with infrastructure creation i feel looks probably very good. ANy idea with say comparable costs of other jets


----------



## ejaz007

*India, France Agree to Finalize Rafale Deal by Spring*

*NEW DELHI* — India will fast-track the finalization of the US $12 billion plan to purchase 126 Dassault Rafale jets, according to a senior Indian Defense Ministry official, almost three years after India made Dassault its preferred bidder.

The news follows Monday evening talks between Indian Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar and his visiting French counterpart, Jean-Yves Le Drian.

The Indian MoD official refused to give details on how the two sides will resolve differences holding back the finalization of the negotiations in the run up to the inking of the contract. He did say that the two defense ministers agreed that all issues that are irritants will be sorted out by the end of this year so the deal can be finalized by the end of the financial year ending March 31.

The crucial issue that needs to be solved is the insistence by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) to give guarantee on the delivery schedule of the Rafales that will be license-produced at HAL. Another issue relates to bringing down the cost of Indian-made Rafales.

A second MoD official said the sides are discussing what currency will be used to purchase the 18 aircraft built by Dassault in France, and how HAL could be protected against currency fluctuations. The details are not known, but the two defense ministers agreed to accommodate each other to bring down the cost of the Indian-made aircraft.

The 2008 request for proposal for the jets stipulates that 18 aircraft will be bought in fly-by-wire condition and the remaining 108 will be built by HAL on a license-production basis.

Contract negotiations between India’s MoD, HAL and Dassault of France have been underway since 2012, after the Rafale was selected as the preferred aircraft over the Eurofighter Typhoon. However, dozens of meetings between the Indian and French sides have failed to close the deal because the French have refused to give guarantees on the delivery schedule of the aicraft that will be produced in India. ■

*Email: vraghuvanshi@defensenews.com.

India, France Agree to Finalize Rafale Deal by Spring | Defense News | defensenews.com*

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## anant_s

Nihonjin1051 said:


> @Gabriel92 , so they agreed to lower it from $20 billion to $15 billion. Not bad !



Don't go by media speculation on the prices. Almost everyday some new report appears, indicating a brand new value. I've seen variations as wide as 15 to 30 Billion USD. As of now IAF hasn't indicated what configuration and weapon system it is negotiating with France and hence all these reports are speculations at best. 
What we know for sure is that while price remains an important issue in negotiations, it is not the thing actually holding back the progress.


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## mehboobkz




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## sathya

why there is a conflicting reports ?

indian side saying the deal is still stuck & french look happy ?

whats happening ?


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## Abingdonboy

Nihonjin1051 said:


> @Gabriel92 , so they agreed to lower it from $20 billion to $15 billion. Not bad !


Sir, that is not what happened, merely the Indian media are now reporting the CORRECT figure, the deal was NEVER $20BN, this is pure nonsense invented by the Indian media.



PARIKRAMA said:


> Finally 15 Bn $$$.... that too published in reuters
> @Abingdonboy - for long you had said this figure... finally now the world knows you were always right in quoting the size of contract. Now we also know how ppl made it 20-22 Bn $$ and made a story out saying its costly
> 
> Tell me if i am wrong but 15 Bn/126 = 119 Mn $ as lifetime cost along with infrastructure creation i feel looks probably very good. ANy idea with say comparable costs of other jets


Well, what can I say? This is what happens if you stick to the facts (the $15-16BN figure was explicitly mentioned a few months back by Jaitley) and don't mindlessly regurgitate blatant lies.

Sadly too many media outlets have been reporting the figure of $20+ BN for a long time now and this has become the accepted narrative.

Pathetic.



anant_s said:


> Don't go by media speculation on the prices. Almost everyday some new report appears, indicating a brand new value. I've seen variations as wide as 15 to 30 Billion USD. As of now IAF hasn't indicated what configuration and weapon system it is negotiating with France and hence all these reports are speculations at best.
> What we know for sure is that while price remains an important issue in negotiations, it is not the thing actually holding back the progress.



The $15-16BN figure is the only one you can trust as this is what Jaitley was told and the figure he was pleased with. Any figure above this is 100% BS. 

I dare say some losing bidders had something to do with the spread of these inflated figures. 



sathya said:


> why there is a conflicting reports ?
> 
> indian side saying the deal is still stuck & french look happy ?
> 
> whats happening ?



Indian media bro, they engage in disinformation in almost every report and the pathetic part is they are so ignorant they don't even realise they are doing it!

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## thesolar65

Anyway, Are we going to get good news before New Year??


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## Abingdonboy

thesolar65 said:


> Anyway, Are we going to get good news before New Year??


Looks like they are working to get this deal sealed by the end of the current finical year.

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## sathya

Now that s it all about to be signed, 

next thing to concentrate is 

*what version* are we getting with *what customization *?


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## thesolar65

*Official: India nears deal for French fighter jets*

NEW DELHI (AP) — India is close to an agreement to buy Rafale fighter planes from France, an Indian defense spokesman said Tuesday. The 12 billion euro ($15 billion) deal for 126 of the jets would be France's first foreign sale of the combat-tested planes.

France and French manufacturer Dassault Aviation have been trying for years to sell the jets abroad without success. The Rafale has been in service for the French Air Force since 2006.

Defense spokesman Sitanshu Kar said Tuesday that Indian Defense Minister Manohar Parrikar met with his French counterpart, Jean-Yves Le Drian, on Monday as part of an official visit to India.

"All issues related to defense were discussed, including the Rafale," Kar said. "Both sides decided to adopt a fast-track approach wherever there are differences."

A French defense official, who was not authorized to discuss the matter publicly, also said that the two defense ministers agreed to accelerate negotiations.

"We can say this morning that the negotiations are on the cusp of conclusion," the French official said.

French President Francois Hollande, speaking briefly to reporters outside Paris, said "good progress" has been made, but that "it's necessary to be prudent on such contracts. When it's finalized, we can speak about it. Until now, silence has rather been the right method." 

India has become the world's biggest arms importer, with an economic boom enabling it to modernize its military. Major arms manufacturers are wooing the country as it replaces its obsolete Soviet-era weapons and buys new equipment. India already has a fleet of the older Mirage jets, France's last big-name fighters.

India's air force has around 700 fighter aircraft and is exceeded in size only by the United States, Russia and China.

Growing worries about China's fast-expanding military and the decades-old mistrust of Pakistan have fueled India's impetus to add heft to its defense forces.

The Rafale has struggled to find an export market because of its high cost, complexity and a design that was a marked shift from the Mirage.

Competing jets from the United States and Russia, such as the General Dynamics F-16, McDonnell Douglas F-15 and Sukhoi Su-27, have grabbed a large slice of the market.

Deals for Brazil, Libya and Switzerland to buy the Rafale have all fallen through, often at the last minute.

In 2007, Morocco opted for F-16s instead of Rafales, with French media blaming bungled negotiations by the French government involving the lack of a single dedicated coordinator to handle talks with Rabat.

France has used Rafales in several combat missions in recent years: over Libya in 2011, in Mali last year and currently as part of the international campaign against Islamic State militants in Iraq from a French air base in the United Arab Emirates.

Official: India nears deal for French fighter jets - Yahoo News

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## sancho

DrSomnath999 said:


> Those 2 things costs should be included



That's your wish, but not the reality, so lets stick to realities and not just conclusions. Dassault constantly states that certain options are available if a customer requires it (CFTs, hight thrust engines, HMS, IRST, additional weapon integration...) and is ready to fund it.




DrSomnath999 said:


> & also *if* India & france team up to build next gen IRST



IF they go fo any joint development, it's a welcomed solution, but so far the French side has shown us the opposite and any development needs time, which then again confirms that no IRST will be available for at least the first squadron.



DrSomnath999 said:


> & that was their mistake & mis management from their side as RBE 2 aesa radar / air to ground capabilty give the
> rafale clear edge of typhoon in MMRCA as who would have waited for 2018 to have those capabilty



True, but now we only get the first MMRCA squad around 2018, so we can get a superior Captor-E with A2A and A2G modes, the swashplate and around 50% more T/R modules at the same time.
The delays are the crucial part now, because it gave the EF the chance to catch up and to the delivery date now, it's capabilities have changed by far.




DrSomnath999 said:


> & saudis have clearly stated that next block of typhoon should have aesa radar , so do OMAN



None of them funded the AESA development, so they remain dependent on the EF partners and when the AESA will be developed and available. The Export AESA now seems to be available around 2017/18, while the partner versions in time for the Tornado replacements. So if the Saudis or Oman wants AESA, they can order EFs from 2017/18 onwards with that capability, but their orders are for T3As partially diverted from UK's original order, so a retrofitting of AESA seems to be more likely unless additional orders will be made.



DrSomnath999 said:


> no !!
> 
> it wont replace but might be used in addition to it .
> 
> i have asked many members about it



Just think about it logically and you will understand it, because they serve the same purpose and it would be counterproductive if you use a Brite Cloud decoy to lure the SAM away from the fighter, while using the towed decoy that makes the missile follow you again. Brite Cloud and LEA (or the system that the Russians develop for Pak Fa), are meant to combine the active capability of a towed decoy, with the capability of Chaffs to divert the missile away from the fighter.



DrSomnath999 said:


> as if i had said it is radar based in my previous post



Which only shows that you don't understand it, the *current MAWS* in EF is radar based, *PIMAWS* is an IR MAW system just as DDM, not to mention that the EF 2020 evolution plan includes passive MAWS as an option too. So that neither is something specific for Rafale only, nor is it uncertain for the upgrade path of the EF and as shown, it offers the same IR imaging capability as well as DIRCM compatibility as DDM NG, DAS of the F35, or the systems the Russians have in their latest fighters.



DrSomnath999 said:


> i didnt get this point at all plz clarify that part



EF's CFTs has the capacity of 3000l = all 3 current fuel tanks, which means it can do any kind of mission without the need of external fuel tanks.
Rafales CFTs have the capacity of just 2300l = which is roughly enough to do A2A missions, but for any A2G mission, additional external tanks are required.

The Rafale CFTs are simply not big enough to replace external fuel tanks completely, but can be used to further extend the range if required. That's why the French tested it in deepstrike configs with CM's, while the CFTs of EF or of the Silent Hornet, are meant to replace external fuel tanks in all basic A2A and A2G roles.



sathya said:


> *what version* are we getting with *what customization *?




We get the Rafale F3+ with AESA, DDM NG, FSO-IT, MICA and AASM
Possible customizations could be IRST, HMS, Litening, SPICE PGMs and SATCOM
If the licence production in 2018/19 is based on the F3R standard, we will get upgraded radar modes, avionics and METEOR capability too.



thesolar65 said:


> Anyway, Are we going to get good news before New Year??



That depends mainly on Dassault, because the issue is not on a government to government level, but as in the case of Rafale exports to the UAE dependent on negotiations and clearances from Dassault. Even the French government was unhappy about Dassaults price and negotiation policy in the past, which is why this visit and the media hype around it doesn't change anything. We need to get to a conclusion with Dassault, then we can see when the deal can be signed.

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## thesolar65

sancho said:


> That depends mainly on Dassault, because the issue is not on a government to government level, but as in the case of Rafale exports to the UAE dependent on negotiations and clearences from Dassault. Even the French government was unhappy about Dassaults price and negotiation policy in the past, which is why this visit and the media hype around it doesn't change anything. We need to get to a conclusion with Dassault, then we can see when the deal can be signed.



Suppose the deal is signed today and if India wants some off the self planes right away, then how many can Dassault supply? May be India can ask "Give us some used ones to practice and you can replace it with new ones later on"?


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## sancho

thesolar65 said:


> Suppose the deal is signed today and if India wants some off the self planes right away, then how many can Dassault supply? May be India can ask "Give us some used ones to practice and you can replace it with new ones later on"?



The production order for Rafale till the end of 2017 includes 7 x Airforce versions for French forces and 18 Rafales for export customers, so a total of 25 fighters could be available for a short term procurement. I doubt that French forces will give away some of the few AESA included Rafales they got so far, so getting more 2nd hand Rafales is doubtfull too. What's more interesting is what happens if the news about Qatar buying 24 Rafales is true, because that might delay induction of our first squad.

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## mehboobkz

thesolar65 said:


> Suppose the deal is signed today and if India wants some off the self planes right away, then how many can Dassault supply? May be India can ask "*Give us some used ones to practice* and you can replace it with new ones later on"?



This is absurd!
Because the Simulator exists.

_France’s DGA procurement agency has accepted the 1st F3.2 simulator upgrade, to the first 2 cabins at the simulation centre in Saint-Dizier. The Rafale Transformation Squadron in Saint-Dizier has a total of 4 cabins, and the 2 upgraded simulators will faithfully replicate the F3 Rafale’s ability to use AM39 Exocet anti-ship missiles, ASMP/A nuclear missiles, the advanced Reco-NG surveillance pod, and the Damocles targeting pod._

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## thesolar65

sancho said:


> The production order for Rafale till the end of 2017 includes 7 x Airforce versions for French forces and 18 Rafales for export customers, so a total of 25 fighters could be available for a short term procurement. I doubt that French forces will give away some of the few AESA included Rafales they got so far, so getting more 2nd hand Rafales is doubtfull too. What's more interesting is what happens if the news about Qatar buying 24 Rafales is true, because that might delay induction of our first squad.



So India's hand are tied virtually for say 1 year? Only short term scenario is having some more SU-30 and a couple of LCA in a year?
@mehboobkz


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## sancho

thesolar65 said:


> So India's hand are tied virtually for say 1 year? Only short term scenario is having some more SU-30 and a couple of LCA in a year?



The remaining MKIs of the initial order will be delivered till the end of 2017 and a squad of LCA MK1s + 1 x Rafale squad if we finally can fix the deal. Anything beyond these orders will take more time. Only EF T3As could be procured faster and in higher numbers.


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## C130

$15 billion and contract by March  I wouldn't get your hopes up. 
this whole ordeal has been unpredictable and full of rumors so far.


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## DrSomnath999

sancho said:


> IF they go fo any joint development, it's a welcomed solution, but so far the French side has shown us the opposite and any development needs time, which then again confirms that no IRST will be available for at least the first squadron.


thales & Samtel have already team up to supply IRST for rafale .

for next gen IRST PIC oil did mention french are planning for next gen QWIP based irst .Rest i cant say anything more

regarding 1st squadron of rafale having IRST that needs to be seen whethere they are having it or not ??

i cant say /or agree with you at the moment now if 1st squadron which is going to be produced in france to have IRST or not better wait as they dont produce their IRST for rafale at the moment






.











sancho said:


> True, but now we only get the *first MMRCA squad around 2018*, so we can get a superior Captor-E with A2A and A2G modes, the swashplate and around 50% more T/R modules at the same time.
> The delays are the crucial part now, because it gave the EF the chance to catch up and to the delivery date now, it's capabilities have changed by far.


those things even if happen are no use for us now as we have selected the winner & Rafale is the winner .

noone cant do anything about it until & unless the deal is scrapped

so those things are just like sour grapes for us .

PLUS we have to fund our own radar development for captor e which fulfills our own requirement & that would have delay the deal in induction of aesa radar in our planes & price even further in long run

*"so rather accept what is readymade available for us a true mutirole capable fighter" plus if we go for MLU by 2025 /26 then it's cappabilty would be somewhat at the same level with CAPTOR E with conformal arrays/ GaN T/r modules /with EA/ESM capabilty*
















sancho said:


> *Just think about it logically and you will understand it,* because they serve the same purpose and it would be counterproductive if you use a Brite Cloud decoy to lure the SAM away from the fighter, while using the towed decoy that makes the missile follow you again. Brite Cloud and LEA (or the system that the Russians develop for Pak Fa), are meant to combine the active capability of a towed decoy, with the capability of Chaffs to divert the missile away from the fighter.


sorry i am just saying what typhoon's fanboys are claiming .!! it would be used with TOWED decoys

But all i can say at the moment better wait for the deal to be signed from partner states / customer s then only we can know it would replace towed decoys or would be used alongside with it .




It is primarily marketed for Gripen at the moment now

I know & agree with you Expendables RF decoy is much better way to deal with homing missiles than towed decoys










sancho said:


> Which only shows that you don't understand it, *the current MAWS in EF is radar based,* *PIMAWS* is an IR MAW system just as DDM, not to mention that the EF 2020 evolution plan includes passive MAWS as an option too. So that neither is something specific for Rafale only, nor is it uncertain for the upgrade path of the EF and as shown, it offers the same IR imaging capability as well as DIRCM compatibility as DDM NG, DAS of the F35, or the systems the Russians have in their latest fighters.



i just cant understand why are you assuming i dont know that fact current MAWS in EF is radar based.

i have not even mentioned about current MAWS in prevoius posts at all in the 1st place.

we were discussing about PIMAWS & that was our topic of discussion








sancho said:


> EF's CFTs has the capacity of 3000l = all 3 current fuel tanks, which means it can do any kind of mission without the need of external fuel tanks.
> Rafales CFTs have the capacity of just 2300l = which is roughly enough to do A2A missions, but for any A2G mission, additional external tanks are required.
> 
> The Rafale CFTs are simply not big enough to replace external fuel tanks completely, but can be used to further extend the range if required. That's why the French tested it in deepstrike configs with CM's, while the CFTs of EF or of the Silent Hornet, are meant to replace external fuel tanks in all basic A2A and A2G roles.


oh yes
i do get your point now

Rafale CFT tanks each 1,150L & each drop tank is around 1250L tank
meanwhile typhoonCFT each is 1,500L & each drop tank is around 1000L

but still i like to tell even if CFT Typhoon is incompetent to carry 3 cruise missile in extreme long range for instance greater than 4000km but Rafale can do it as it can carry 2 EFTS extra with CFT as it has 5 wet stations
EFT max range with 3EFTS =4000km
Rafale max range with 3EFTS =4000km lets take average for both by citing WIKI as refference


For eg from ambala to beijing






why amabal a as it is going to be inducted with 1st rafale squadron

but i wanna how much distance can each drop tank of rafale add to it's km covered then only my claim be justified

*CHEERS*


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## sancho

DrSomnath999 said:


> thales & Samtel have already team up to supply IRST for rafale



No they don't, it's for FSO-IT with the IR channel as an option. Samtel hopes that the JV can bring either the production or the development of the IR channel, but unless India or another export customer orders it, Samtel will only produce the FSO-IT with the TV channel.



DrSomnath999 said:


> regarding 1st squadron of rafale having IRST that needs to be seen whethere they are having it or not ??



Again look at the facts! IRST is not in production at the moment and Thales will not start the production again for just 18 of them, while the production of FSO is meant to be part of the offsets anyway. It's far more logical and economical to retrofit IRST produced by Samtel to that first squad at a later upgrade stage, just as the first Su 30K squad was meant to be upgraded to MKI level at a later stage.



DrSomnath999 said:


> those things even if happen are no use for us now as we have selected the winner & Rafale is the winner .



We never selected Rafale as the winner, but as the prefered negotiation partner. EF is still in the game, but is dependent on the Indian government to talk to them. If Dassault mess things up too far, India can simply go and start negotiations with the L2.



DrSomnath999 said:


> PLUS we have to fund our own radar development for captor e



What own radar? We either can opt for Radar 1+ or the more capable versions for the partners.

*


DrSomnath999 said:



"so rather accept what is readymade available for us a true mutirole capable fighter" plus if we go for MLU by 2025 /26

Click to expand...

*
LOL, what now? Accepting what is available now or dreaming about things that could be availbe in a decade? You can't have both, unless you take the EF, since it is promissing more in a mid term solution (in 4 to 5 years).



DrSomnath999 said:


> sorry i am just saying what typhoon's fanboys are claiming .!!



So you prefer things that fanboys claim, than thinking about it logically on your own? 



DrSomnath999 said:


> i just cant understand why are you assuming i dont know that fact current MAWS in EF is radar based.
> 
> i have not even mentioned about current MAWS in prevoius posts at all in the 1st place.
> 
> we were discussing about PIMAWS & that was our topic of discussion



Because you keep repeating that PIMAWS is radar bases, which is wrong.



DrSomnath999 said:


> but still i like to tell even if CFT Typhoon is incompetent to carry 3 cruise missile



Which hardly is important, since not even Rafale might be used with 3 cruise missiles at a single fighter, nor will we aim to attack targets several 1000s KM away with fighters that has to pass half of China.
The bigger downside is, that the EF can't carry a single cruise missile config, based on it's design flaw at the centerline, but then again, that has nothing to do with the advantage of the CFTs.


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## DrSomnath999

sancho said:


> No they don't, *it's for FSO-IT with the IR channel as an option.* Samtel hopes that the JV can bring either the production or the development of the IR channel, but unless India or another export customer orders it, Samtel will only produce the FSO-IT with the TV channel.



*Samtel to supply IRST for IAF Rafales*


> Samtel is now moving into new frontiers.IRST is a standard kit in the Rafale.
> This passive sensor detects enemy aircraft at ranges *of 60-80 kilometres* through the heat (infrared) they emit. IRST is entirely stealthy, since it emits nothing. “Thales plans to offer the IRST to the IAF on a ‘Buy and Make (Indian)’ basis. This category of procurement (specified in the Defence Procurement Procedure of 2011, or DPP-2011) requires an Indian partner to absorb critical, high-end technologies and develop capabilities within India. *Thales has told the IAF that Samtel Thales Avionics would do 50 per cent of the design and development work in India,”* Kaura said.


..:: India Strategic ::. DefExpo 2012: Samtel to supply IRST for IAF Rafales

For FSO IT 's FSO TV max range is around 60km so no way it is going have 80km range so one can imagine it's for IRST channel basically






sancho said:


> We never selected Rafale as the winner, but as the prefered negotiation partner *EF is still in the game,*. but is dependent on the Indian government to talk to them. If Dassault mess things up too far, India can simply go and start negotiations with the L2


You lecture others about reality & facts

meanwhile you your self put your head in sand ignoring the facts & reality


it's only their claims meanwhile iAF is negotiating with none other than dassault & the deal would be signed
thats it










.




sancho said:


> What own radar? We either can opt for Radar 1+ or the more capable versions for the partners.



i hope you must have read this thread of mine

why RBE2 aesa radar was the safest bet for india in MMRCA evaluations

there i have stated radar 1 which is for export would not have any enhanced range compare to captor M so basically
it would in the range of 200km

& for partnerstates it is radar 2 which would have enhanced range but it has no fixed timelines when they would induct it for themselves they fail to mention that

& also you keep on ignoring factors which i have pointed out in that thread in conclusion part

why rbe 2 aesa radar was the safest bet for india in MMRCA evalutions??






sancho said:


> LOL, what now? Accepting what is available now or dreaming about things that could be availbe in a decade? You can't have both, unless you take the EF, since it is promissing more in a mid term solution (in 4 to 5 years).



& meanwhile you want us on dreaming about those things which typhoon cant gurantee when they would induct it for themselves like Operational ready aesa radar & A/G capabilites by 2018 you want to to keep us waiting for that

& on top of it day dreaming about capabilites which they wont have in future capabilites in MLU like GaN t/r module aesa radar & EW suite plus CFTS which they dont give priority by themselves 

funny how you impose you useless logic on other without doing a proper research by yourselves regarding the feasibility of all those tall claims

& thats not all forgeting the requirement of IAF for MMRCA & also capabilty of existing fighters & their potential upgrades

as SU 30 mki is already an air superiority fighter & would be upgraded with AESA radar which would have much
better detection range than Rafale but lacks deep penetration ground attack capabilty due it's unstealthy design

so rafale which has both better long range air to ground & good air to air capabilty is capable of going in high threat
areas thanks to it's adavnced EW suite , plus improved passive detection & situatinal awareness capabilty

*so it is more justified to get a multirole fighter with better A/G capabilies than a better AIr superiority fighter with 
limited A/G capabilty like that of typhoon *






sancho said:


> So you prefer things that fanboys claim, than thinking about it logically on your own?


Fanboys irrespetive of which ever jet they route for know in much detail why ?? becoz they would have asked the same thing to others more knowledgable than them

BUt i think logically and i have posted it clearly before which you keep on ignoring that as nowhere typhoon consortium said that they have plans to replace towed decoys with expendables decoys in future

so thats why i have said they have not signed yet the deal ,it's for gripen basically .with signing of deal we can know whther it would replace towed decoys or not









sancho said:


> Because* you keep repeating that PIMAWS is radar bases*, which is wrong.



Roflmao

yeah yeah i was claiming that it's clearly visible from my prevoius posts






sancho said:


> Which hardly is important, since not even Rafale might be used with 3 cruise missiles at a single fighter, *nor will we aim to attack targets several 1000s KM away with fighters that has to pass half of China.*
> The bigger downside is, that the EF can't carry a single cruise missile config, based on it's design flaw at the centerline, but then again, that has nothing to do with the* advantage of the CFTs.*





then for whom are we procuring rafale for ???
pakistan 
CAN ANYONE TRANSLATE THIS ???
& it's translation
CAN ANYONE TRANSLATE THIS ??? | Page 3

plus check the annual review source of RAF which i have posted earliear ,they have clearly stated that CFT is not in their agenda for short/medium term











*CHEERS*


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## halloweene

Some points i'd like to clarify about latest posts.

1- IRST on Rafale is a kit you mount or not, like a bomb for example. 
2- About Range, Rafale has inherently a longer range than Typhoon (less fuel consumption, bigger fuel fraction). Why do you think Typhoon need a fuel tank for its demo?
3- For long range missions, Rafale will stay subsonic and use 2000L tanks (btw those have been tested up to mach 1.2)
4- Anecdotic, but from a pilot. Rafale can supercruise in A2A configuration with 3 supersonic tanks and missile load but it will need one crank of PC to pass transsonic regime.
5- SATCOM is integrated. French CEAM is finalizing the solution used (eg. which satellite system will be used etc.) but the industrial solution is implemented on two testbed Rafales.
6- A New HMD is being integrated Scorpion would be my best guess as Thales has bought visionix (and btw is intending a procedure to Rockwell for patents violations)
7- Somnath has been given a very nice ppt explaining the future of Rafale program on a french forum (and how it will articulate with FCAS), his guess of MLU is not baseless
8- Having talked to engineers, MELBAA program has two main objectives : multipanel technology (aka physically dividing the antenna with parallel processing chains) and inducing GaN modules for RBE2"NG". Multipanel tech is first step for "smart skin" or cheek antennas.
According to this http://www.upmdie.upm.es/seminario_cei/2009/presentaciones/xIndra _Seminario_CEI_2009.pdf
peak power of Captor E is quite similar to RBE2. I admit it will have a greater aperture due to larger number of modules, and there are many other factors (duty cycle, and even more important signal processing)...

Cheers

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## Abingdonboy

*Exporting the future Indian Rafale?*

_While the contract is under negotiation, the French Defense Minister told the Indian press that HAL could ,in turn, export the licensed product , "HAL will have the complete technology and the license to manufacture additionnal aircrafts which could be exported [...]_

From:
http://www.journal-aviation.com/actu...ien-exportable


@sancho


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## sancho

DrSomnath999 said:


> *Samtel to supply IRST for IAF Rafales*



As I already said, that's the aim according to the RFP requirements, but the current offer is for FSO with IR channel as an option:








DrSomnath999 said:


> it's only their claims meanwhile iAF is negotiating with none other than dassault & the deal would be signed
> thats it



Which is wrong on so many levels! IAF is not negotiating anything with anybody, MoD is and they are still talking with the EF partners and the consortium as we have seen several times after the elections, which is even logical since they were never rejected, but selected as L2 and not L1. Rafale was selected as L1 and therefor Dassault is the "prefered partner for the negotiations", but that's it.



DrSomnath999 said:


> there i have stated radar 1 which is for export would not have any enhanced range compare to captor M



Which is logically wrong as well, since we know that the Captor E will use the same GaAs modules but in 50% higher numbers, therefore MUST have higher detection range.



DrSomnath999 said:


> Operational ready aesa radar & A/G capabilites by 2018 you want to to keep us waiting for that



It doesn't matter when the partners induct the radar, it only matters when it can be available for us, that's the same case for METEOR in Rafale, which will be inducted by French forces only by 2018, while it could be available earlier if an export customer had funded the integration as proposed to the UAE earlier. And we have to wait till 2018 anyway, no matter which fighter we use, that's the crucial part that has changed now, because of the 2 years delays that Dassault has caused.



halloweene said:


> 1- IRST on Rafale is a kit you mount or not, like a bomb for example.



Which only means, that French forces can use the IR channel from an older Rafale that has it, on a new Rafale that comes without it.
For India however that has no relevance, since the IR channel is not in production anymore. What counts is, when can they be produced again? Because that decides when the first Rafales with IRST capabilty can be available for India.



halloweene said:


> 7- Somnath has been given a very nice ppt explaining the future of Rafale program on a french forum (and how it will articulate with FCAS), his guess *of MLU* is not baseless



Of course it's not baseless, but the point is that he is talking about MLU capabilities that will be available from 2025 onwards only and not F3+ or F3R that would be important for India. Nor does it counter the fact that the EF can have similar capabilities (wFoV radar, GaN modules, radar EA capability...) before the Rafale even around 2020. That's why the upgrade prospect of the EF is currently better than Rafales, because all major upgrades for Rafale are planned only around 5 years later than for EF. That's a fact that is not deniable, Rafale is better today, can be surpassed by EF around 2020 and the Rafale can catch up again only by 2025.




halloweene said:


> peak power of Captor E is quite similar to RBE2. I admit it will have a greater aperture due to larger number of modules


Exactly, similar power, more modules, higher FoV, which logically will give the EF the radar advantage, till side arrays or smart skin will be available for Rafale.



Abingdonboy said:


> *Exporting the future Indian Rafale?*



Yes, similar to the Do 228 or Chetak helicopters that HAL builds for other countries. Any Rafale export on Asia for example could be produced in India, just as exports in S. America were aimed to be produced in Brazil if they had chosen it. But in any case, when we select it, we will produce parts for any future export for sure. The wing production at Reliance for example could be used by Dassault for exports too, but reduces the costs of the fighter in general. Same could be the case for FSO by Samtel and other parts by HAL or BEL.

The question is only which other countries will buy Rafale to give us export benefits? More interesting would be the joint development and production of upgrade parts, since that would include the 180 Rafales of French forces. If we had gone for a joint HMS for example, which would be produced in India but selected by French forces, we would benefit far more than waiting for export orders.

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## halloweene

> For India however that has no relevance, since the IR channel is not in production anymore. What counts is, when can they be produced again? Because that decides when the first Rafales with IRST capabilty can be available for India.


i have no clue, sorry for indian Rafales. As Talios pod has Air to Air IRST functions, i am not sure it will be produced for France.


> since we know that the Captor E will use the same GaAs


. you sure? We do not know duty cycle of each radar btw.


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## sancho

halloweene said:


> i have no clue, sorry for indian Rafales.



Actually I feel more sorry for your colleagues in the French forces and their Rafales, because the more India is customizing in an independent manner, the bad for them. That's the result of the Dassault / French way of an independent F3R upgrade, rather than going for a joint French Indian one.
We know that French forces wanted the Gerfault HMS (possibly with some upgrades) and jointly developed and produced in India, it could easily had been part of the ToT/offset package, which then had benefited the French forces. Now it's likely that India will get a Thales HMS (logically the Topsight), which the French forces rejected, so even if India integrates it, it doesn't mean that the French forces will go for it too.
Same is the case for IRST, which the French forces don't wanted anymore because of technical issues and the limited capabilities of the older one, but they still would like an upgraded version (possibly the upgrade Sagem offered) which could had been jointly developed and produced in India again. But here again, diverting production of the older IRST serves the purpose of complying to the RFP requirements, but doesn't add any benefits to French forces and their requirements.
And one can go on with this with India likely to use Litening, which makes French forces dependent on a very costly Talios pod and limited chances to reduce the cost, just as MICA NG upgrades that will make the missile even more costly, instead of taking benefit of India to reduce it's cost, or even from a joint integration of Brimstone missile that the French forces wanted too.

So all in all, IAF might lose out on capabilities of the first squad, but will get what they wanted through the licence production, while French forces get nothing that they wanted out of the Indian customizations. As much as I like the Rafale and I look forward for the benefits of the tender for India, it's sad to see that after so many years, the leading officials of both sides were not able to get more out of the deal for the Forces and the fighter itself!



halloweene said:


> As Talios pod has Air to Air IRST functions


Actually I wanted to ask you about that before, because the data sheet doesn't mention that. In fact it only talks about visual ID in A2A. Also do you have any info on the range of visual ID with the pod?



halloweene said:


> . you sure?



For Germany and most likely Spain yes, since they will go for the Cassadian / UMS developed modules. There was even talk that Germany wants to stick to a fixed AESA version to reduce the maintenance costs, but I don't think that still will happen.
If the UK will go for Selex based moduls is a different issue, since they have different plans in mind, but that needs to be seen around 2020.


----------



## halloweene

nope about Talios IRST mode, Thales is a very secrecive company. But heard it from hose mouth.
For the HMS my bet would go for Thales ex visionix Scorpion. Again no clue.


----------



## sancho

halloweene said:


> nope about Talios IRST mode, Thales is a very secrecive company. But heard it from hose mouth.



Anything on the range of visual ID of Talios compared to the FSO-IT? I still don't get why they didn't developed an integrated system (for Rafale and a pod for the Mirage or export customers) instead of the FSO-IT, if Talios offers all the FSO TV channel can as well + A2G targeting. It also doesn't really feature any RCS reductions as advertised earlier.



halloweene said:


> For the HMS my bet would go for Thales ex visionix Scorpion. Again no clue.



That depends on what advantages it offers over the Topsight that IAF already operates and that Samtel already produces. If you are right about Thales integrating it to Rafale, it still can be a prototype integration only, since there is no requirement from the French forces stated anymore since the last time comparison between Topsight and Gerfaut, just as the F3R reportedly doesn't include and HMS. So the question would the question would be, does it fulfill the requirements of the French or Indian forces to justify the integration and an order?

@halloweene

Wrt the Captor-E modules:



> ...*The modules for the Typhoon radar, originally designed by EADS Cassidian*, contain the same gallium arsenide components as the Gripen modules, albeit with different packaging, Morrison said. *The Typhoon modules will be dual-sourced from Selex and Airbus Defence & Space*...



First Typhoon Flight With AESA Could Open Door to Exports | Defense News | defensenews.com



> The E-scan also has a tilt that Paul Smith, capability manager at Eurofighter, says will help reduce the aircraft’s radar return to adversaries...
> ...*The TRMs are being dual-sourced from both the U.K. and Germany*.
> 
> Smith said the first radars could be retrofitted into aircraft and be on the front line within three years.



Covers Off Eurofighter E-Scan Radar | Farnborough 2014 content from Aviation Week


So Cassidian modules are confirmed, but not sure if they mix them or if the customer decides about one source as mentioned earlier.


----------



## PARIKRAMA

A very interesting read
originally in french .. google translated



*The Rafale in the Indian media*
December 5
*Pierre Memheld, strategy consultant in international markets, the teacher IE Translators Institute of Interpreters and International Relations* 


Dassault Aviation has entered into exclusive discussions with the Department of Indian Defence to close the sale of Rafales in January 2012. Since then, negotiations will not continue at step toward reaching a definitive agreement, now announced by the media to March 2015 - regardless of a possible postponement of the decision, that date has already been shifted several times. [1] Indian media closely follow this case because it is a key contract, not only for the French aircraft manufacturer, but also for the Indian defense as a whole.








The Indian government must indeed solve the difficult equation to successfully modernize its military equipment, while developing its defense industry and by mastering its budget. [2] Industrial partnerships signed with some providers can not only transfer know-how and technology but also to establish diplomatic ties in view of the geopolitical challenges India faces. The acquisition of aircraft multirole fighter, diesel submarines and artillery guns is now a necessity. 

*If the goal of India is partly to streamline its equipment and to develop its economy, its ultimate goal is to become independent of its major suppliers (Russia, USA, Israel, France). In turn, these countries are trying to find outlets for their products and make India a relay diplomacy in the Indian Ocean. But the government of Narendra Modi and his new defense minister Manohar Parrikar [3] have clearly stated their objectifs.Il is to develop the defense industry "natives", public or private, and "contain" China getting closer to countries like Australia, Vietnam and Singapore. Without this directly concerns the Rafale contract, Indian budget constraints explain the postponement or cancellation of several tenders or arms contracts. India finally made competition between its various suppliers to get the best contract terms and "policies". *

*In such a competitive environment, it is interesting that the Rafale, Dassault or even France, are criticized or attacked in the Indian press at the discretion of the tender hazards "MMRCA"* [4], and especially since the beginning of exclusive negotiations.If the Indian press is on the front of the competitors' power struggles of the Rafale, continuing to believe in their chances, other media echo of "difficulties" in concluding this symbolic contract. 

*For some, the Rafale would be "a big mistake" for the Indian Air Force *[5] -then she even conducted multiple studies and tests to confirm this choice-*. For others, budgetary constraints and the focus on social reforms by the Modi government could postpone the contract, especially since the cost "has increased from 10 to 20 billion dollars".* [6] *Finally, relayed by specialized media, the Russian ambassador in Delhi said that "Sukhoi-27 built in China Gusts crush them like mosquitoes"* [7]. 

*If we can relate this statement to the current problem of projection and command Mistral, the fact remains that these attempts to influence the media level are an expression of fierce competition between the major suppliers .dropoff window Other arguments, referring to the Rafale operating cost, or difficulty for Dassault partner (Hindustan Aeronautics) to ensure the production of 108 aircraft, also advanced. Finally, the Rafale is "opposite" to devices of "5th generation" as the American F-35, considered more "modern". *

These questions are often described as the information obtained by journalists from senior officers or politicians "familiar with the matter." Where official statements of the Department of Defense or the General Staff of the Indian Army Air highlight the constant progress of negotiations, these "leaks" are presented as validating the arguments against the Rafale and including the risk of choosing a foreign manufacturer heavily dependent on this single contract. [8] 

It must also be remembered that this contract is under discussion for over a decade. However, during this period, India has experienced several governments "Indian National Congress" (INC) and now a government "Indian People's Party" (BJP). [9] Not to mention their specific political ideas, the two major parties compete with blows of revelations about the implications of each other with a particular industry or foreign power. This internal political opposition could affect the contract for the Rafale. 

*If negotiations have not been called into question following the return of the BJP to power, one of the party members clearly understood that the contract had been signed during "private conversations" between Sonia Gandhi, president of the INC, and Nicolas Sarkozy, through their family ties in Italy. [10] This evocation of Sonia Gandhi connections recalls that it has already been involved in an arms deal, canceled for suspected corruption. *

*We can see, from reading some press only that this contract is the center of attention of the Indian and Russian media and the crossroads of Russian and American economic and diplomatic interests. Some articles suggest discrete aspects of the negotiations, others attack frontally the Rafale, Dassault and France evoking far the link between this contract and its credibility as an exporter of arms even as Indian and Russian contexts can not be compared. *

*As India seeks strategic depth in the eponymous Ocean, it would be useful that France reaffirms its military presence, and its economic interests in this strategic area for many countries. In addition, by offering India the equipment and support they need to reaffirm its position as a regional power, France will only strengthen the link -since much longer than one contract, from the point of view Economic historical*.





_(1) Thus, "MMRCA deal: Rafale negotiations expected To Be wrapped up in 3 months," Rajat Pandit, The Times of India, June 3, 2014 
(2) "India: military power," Pierre Memheld, Defense Review National No. 774 November 2014 
(3) Narendra Modi assured the post of minister of defense, in addition to the prime minister, since his election in May 2014 until November 2014 and the appointment of the former "Chief minister "Goa Manohar Parrikar. 
(4) Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft 
(5) "Why Rafale is a Big Mistake" Bharat Karnad, The New Indian Express, 14 August 2014 
(6) "No Softlanding in sight for $ 20- bn Rafale deal, "Huma Siddiqui, The Financial Express, 26 October 2014 
(7) "Why India Needs to rethink the Rafale deal," Rakesh Krishnan Simha, Russia & India Report, 26 October 2014 
(8) "MMRCA: a do or die contract for Dassault's military business, "Huma Siddiqui, the Indian Express, 12 May 2013 
(9) Bharatiya Janata Party = Indian People's Party 
(10) "The Rafale deal Should Be scrapped and renegotiated" interview Subramanian Swamy, Pranay Sharma Outlook, August 18, 2014


Link:
Le Rafale dans les médias indiens - Affaires Stratégiques

_


----------



## sancho

> *ISIS bombing triggers Lossiemouth re-think*
> 
> UK military action against brutal IS jihadists in Iraq is forcing defence chiefs to rethink their plans for RAF Lossiemouth...
> 
> ...*It has also emerged that plans to upgrade the RAF’s Typhoon jets* – which replaced the bulk of the Tornados at Lossiemouth this year – *may be accelerated so they can help bomb IS targets in the future*.
> 
> One expert told the Press and Journal it was only a matter of time before the Typhoons were involved in operations against the terror group...
> 
> ...*Asked if he expected the Typhoon jets to be involved in fighting IS, Mr Ripley said: “The answer to that is yes, it just depends on when*...
> 
> ...The UK’s Tornado GR4s are the only fighters fitted with the highly accurate Brimstone weapon, which can hit moving vehicles.
> 
> The MoD is understood to have planned to fit them to the Typhoons by 2019 [correction, Brimstone 2 around 2017, SPEAR 3 around 2019] – the year that Tornados were due to be taken out of service – so they could take over such ground attack duties.
> 
> However, senior figures at the department are believed *to be investigating ways to speed-up the process* so they can be involved in the IS operations if necessary...
> 
> ...*As part of the upgrade, Typhoons from RAF Lossiemouth successfully released two live Paveway IV bombs – which have also been used by Tornado GR4s against IS* – at the Cape Wrath range in the Highlands on November 25...



https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/moray/422885/isis-bombing-triggers-lossie-re-think/


----------



## DrSomnath999

sancho said:


> As I already said, that's the aim according to the RFP requirements, but the current offer is for FSO with IR channel as an option:



ok it's optional

But the link which i have posted earliear did cleary mentioned thales & samtel would codevelop iRST & predicts it's range of detection

which TV chaneel irst in this world would provide range of 80km ???

& what for are they coveloping IRST for!!! if IR channel is optional Huh!!

as IRST is the main sensor rest all subsystems were added to it to improve it's accuracy & to overcome it's limitation





PLus the good thing is it would be benefical for indian aviation industry as those tech might be used in other future planes like
su 30mki & Pak-fa even LCA mark2





India Chose Rafale On Cost But Britain Demands Second Chance for Eurofighter | Defense: Aviation International News







sancho said:


> Which is wrong on so many levels! IAF is not negotiating anything with anybody, MoD is and *they are still talking with the EF partners* and the consortium as we have seen several times after the elections, which is even logical since they were never rejected, but selected as L2 and not L1. Rafale was selected as L1 and therefor Dassault is the "prefered partner for the negotiations", but that's it.



Pfft!

MoD is talking with nobody ,it's EF consortium countrie's representatives who are themselves are push selling their planes by baiting us with a revised price tag like what we have seen from germans & even British PM claiming to fill the place if negotiations failed

until & unless the negotiations totally collapses then only we can predict anyhting or else the deal would be signed 

*& thats it*











sancho said:


> Which is logically wrong as well, since we know that the Captor E will use the same GaAs modules *but in 50% higher numbers,* therefore MUST have higher detection range.


dear sancho plz dont be naive

as export variants are usually downgraded variants basically & nobody knows what is exact T/R count of export varaint in comparision to partner 
variants

& performance evaluation is another important thing becoz same thing was said about apg 79 aesa radar with higher T/R count but what was the result 
*no performance gain in comparision to prevoius radar * 

i dont buy such claims until they dont do proper evaluation trials 

plus most importantly complete ToT with source codes would not happen from EF consortium group unlike french 
domain-b.com : Dassault ups the ante with full technology transfer for Rafale



*P.S for halloweene 

pal i dont need to counter anyone's fancy & fictious claims of EF can have similar capabilities (wFoV radar, GaN modules, radar EA capability...) before the Rafale even around 2020.*

meanwhile they keep on ignoring 

a) Wfov Radar is meaningless when you have miniawacs concept during aerial combat in foreign land with super SU 30 aesa radar & powerful AWACS like phalcon during aerial combat in your homeland as rafale is silent passive killer which kills with it's passive detection capabilty through MICA IR/mica EM from 70km & rafale evades after launching it

only drawback is meteor of rafale is unilink which cant be guided by 3rd party i think india should pay attention to that to get dual link bvraam

& *regarding GaN modules & EA capabilty by 2020 on typhoon *
yeah yeah if wishes became true in reality then i wish katrina kaif be my wife 


thales have already signed the deal for EA/ESM version of RBE 2 aesa radar for 4year study which means it's for 2018/19 timeframe in mind as they have categorically stated they want to remain ahead of competition from european rivals 

Thales awarded with a study contract for the next generation of active array radars | Thales Group


*CHEERS*

*UK downplays conformal fuel tanks for Eurofighter Typhoon*


The UK Royal Air Force (RAF) does not consider the installation of conformal fuel tanks to extend the range of the UK's Eurofighter Typhoon aircraft as a top priority, according to its commander, Air Commodore Philip Beach.

Writing in the service's official annual review published at the start of December, Air Commodore Beach put bringing air-to-surface capability on line as his top priority because of pressure to exploit it in current operational tasking. "The decision [in October by the UK government] to extend the third Panavia Tornado GR.4 squadron gives an idea of the pressure combat air is under; we're being asked to do a lot."

He said the ability of the Typhoon to "migrate roles" from the Tornado is really important and he said that work to declare the Typhoon operational with the Raytheon Paveway IV guided weapon was "going well". "I am confident we'll declare the capability by the end of the first quarter [2015]," he said.

Looking at more long-term requirements, Air Cdre Beach down played RAF interest in acquiring conformal fuel tanks for the Tranche 3 aircraft that are now being assembled for the service at BAE Systems' Warton site. The Tranche 3 aircraft are 'plumbed' for the tanks that are intended to be fitted on their upper fuselage spine.

"My perspective is that there are some circumstances where we could use conformal fuel tanks and I know some countries use them, but we have a superb air-to-air refuelling fleet and a fighter that operates at high altitude can stay airborne for a long time," he said. "Looking at future programmes and where the balance of investment should lay, I wouldn't put conformal tanks at the top of the list unless we started to see a circumstance where we needed extreme range and endurance, and air-refuelling was at an absolute premium. It's not at the top of the pecking order, but it's a useful option."

UK downplays conformal fuel tanks for Eurofighter Typhoon - IHS Jane's 360

hmm!!
So someone did paid attention to my post
Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions | Page 691
*CHEERS*


----------



## SpArK

*French Navy Evaluated the Future F3R Standard of the Rafale with Meteor Missiles*

*From 1st to 4th December 2014,* pilots of the French Navy Naval Aviation Practical Experimentation Center (c_entre d’expérimentations pratiques de l’aéronautique navale_ - CEPA) participated in the first evaluation campaign of the Rafale's future F3R standard. This campaign allowed the French Navy to test the fire control of the new MBDA Meteor long range air to air missile in an operational context (while in flight) and to propose improvements to the system.

Thanks to the range of the Meteor missile and the detection range of the new active electronically scanned array (AESA) RBE2 radar, Rafale F3R will have an unmatched interception capability.





*The Rafale M during the evaluation campaign with the French Navy's CEPA, seen here with 2x Meteor, 2x MICA EM, 2x MICA IR (at the wingtips) and a Scalp cruise missile. Thanks to the reach of the Meteor missile and the detection range of the new active electronically scanned array (AESA) RBE2 radar, Rafale F3R will have an unmatched interception capability. Picture: French Navy*

Compared to the latest F3 standard currently in service, the future F3R standard will also allow the Rafale M to carry the new laser designation pod in its air to ground missions and a new refueling pod essential in operations around the CSG (carrier strike group).

The first Rafale M F3R is expected to enter operational service with the French Navy around 2020.

French Navy Evaluated the Future F3R Standard of the Rafale with Meteor Missiles

Reactions: Like Like:
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## sancho

DrSomnath999 said:


> ok it's optional
> 
> But the link which i have posted earliear did cleary mentioned thales & samtel would codevelop iRST



Which as I already said, is possible only IF the Indian MoD and IAF goes for the IRST at all, but that's not confirmed so far. All we know is, that FSO will be part of the ToT/offsets of Rafale via Samtel, what will be procured by the IAF at the end needs to be seen. So they can take the FSO-TV only as French forces, pay for the licence production of the already developed IR channel or pay even more for the development of the upgraded / newly developed IR channel. But the current status remains, IRST is not available today and any production or development needs to be started after the final selection of Rafale and it's capabilities, therefor the EF has an advantage here. 



DrSomnath999 said:


> as export variants are usually downgraded variants basically & nobody knows what is exact T/R count of export varaint in comparision to partner variants



The number of T/R modules won't change for export customers, what can change are modes or capabilities like EA, but as already stated, we wouldn't be a normal export customer, but a partner in the project, therefor would get more access anyway, so please don't go to such excuses if you can't admit the advantages of the Captor-E. The advantage of RBE2 was, that it is ready and in time of the RFP, not that it's more capable than the Captor-E. And the upgrade potential within the next 5 years is simply better for the EF / Captor-E, than what we see for Rafale / RBE2. 



DrSomnath999 said:


> plus most importantly complete ToT with source codes would not happen from EF consortium group unlike french



Not really, EF officials stated that source codes would be diverted too, be it in our MMRCA, or in the S. Korean or Japanese tenders. The industrial advantage that Rafale or the EF offers compared to US fighters are a key in their bids and the partnership in the EF consortium was indeed a big chance:



> We are offering India to become a full participant in the program… fully or partially whatever India chooses to do…get involved in future developments. Combat aircraft program never stops. It will operate over decades,” said Peter Maute, Senior Vice-President of Cassidian Air Systems, the security and defense company of the European Aeronautic Defense and Space Company (EADS).
> Quoting an independent study, Maute said choosing Eurofighter Typhoon would create more than 20,000 high skilled jobs in India.
> 
> The European consortium hopes that the offer to make India a full industrial participant in the Eurofighter Typhoon program would be a game-changer...
> 
> ...*Asked if Eurofighter is willing to “give away” its unique selling propositions, source codes of radars and design for the “sake of 126 units”. The consortium said it would not be an issue if India becomes a partner of the Eurofighter program.*



Eurofighter optimistic to win India’s MMRCA contract | IndiaPost


The real benefit for India from an industrial point of view, would had been, that the EF customer base is far bigger than Rafales, which makes any part that is produced in India and would be part of new or upgraded EF, would be produced in far bigger numbers than it can be for Rafales. If the current government had the chance to shortlist one of the fighters, I'm sure they would prefer the EF bid, simply by the fact that the outcome for the privat Indian industry would be far higher, which makes it more suitable to the Make in India campaign.



SpArK said:


> *French Navy Evaluated the Future F3R Standard of the Rafale with Meteor Missiles*
> 
> *From 1st to 4th December 2014,* pilots of the French Navy Naval Aviation Practical Experimentation Center (c_entre d’expérimentations pratiques de l’aéronautique navale_ - CEPA) participated in the first evaluation campaign of the Rafale's future F3R standard. This campaign allowed the French Navy to test the fire control of the new MBDA Meteor long range air to air missile in an operational context (while in flight) and to propose improvements to the system.



And the same for EF:




> *Eurofighter Typhoon completes first live firings of Meteor missile*
> ...BAE Systems has completed the first in a series of live firings of the Meteor beyond visual range air-to-air missile from Eurofighter Typhoon aircraft at the UK Ministry of Defence's (MoD) Hebrides firing range in the UK.
> 
> Supported by MBDA, Selex, Qinetiq and the MoD, the trials demonstrate the effective operation of the Meteor missile with Typhoon, while expanding the jettison envelope by conducting firings at different altitudes and speeds.
> 
> The trials also evaluate the interface of Meteor with the Typhoon weapon system for both pre-launch priming and post-launch datalink functions between the missile and the radar...



Eurofighter Typhoon completes first live firings of Meteor missile - Airforce Technology


----------



## DrSomnath999

sancho said:


> Which as I already said, is possible only IF the Indian MoD and *IAF goes for the IRST at all, but that's not confirmed so far*. All we know is, that FSO will be part of the ToT/offsets of Rafale via Samtel, what will be procured by the IAF at the end needs to be seen. So they can take the FSO-TV only as French forces, pay for the licence production of the already developed IR channel or pay even more for the development of the upgraded / newly developed IR channel. But the current status remains, IRST is not available today and any production or development needs to be started after the final selection of Rafale and it's capabilities, therefor the EF has an advantage here.



for your kind information
IRST was also one of the requirement of MMRCA deal so it's confirmed to have that on rafale
check J tellis dog fight article about MMRCA requirements you would get it

only thing i am waiting whether new IRST with IR channel would be used on rafale or same old FSO IR channel which is not in production would be used on rafale

most likely new one the link which i posted did prove that











sancho said:


> *The number of T/R modules won't change for export customers,* what can change are modes or capabilities like EA,


thats your over optimistic claim not the fact

*Export varaint are usually downgraded variants* 

J.L is not a fool to mention that Radar1 which is for export ,it's detection range would not be major enhancement from captor M

Radar 1+ or 2 which is for partner states would have serious enhancement in detection range

any normal guy with slight knowledge about radar should understand this may be reffering to difference in amount of T/R modules or quality of T/R modules (power output) used in export or partner states radar



sancho said:


> but as already stated, we wouldn't be a normal export customer, *but a partner in the project, therefor would get more access anyway, so please don't go to such excuses if you can't admit the advantages of the Captor-E.* The advantage of RBE2 was, that it is ready and in time of the RFP, not that it's more capable than the Captor-E



.

i am not giving any cheap excuses at all & why should I???
it's a fact theortically CAPTOR E would have much greater detection range than RBE 2 aesa radar but would be confirmed after proper evalutions

but for INDIA they gonna have to develop their own radar for fulfilling it's own requiremnet which you dont understand that it would delay the aesa radar induction into typhoon further for IAF

plus we have to pay extra in R/D on aesa radar of captor e which is for IAF's typhoon as we going to be partner so we have to be a partner in bearing the expenses of R/D of captor E radar

it goes both ways



BUT whats the big deal for INDIA ???
as for what are we upgrading SU 30 mki aesa radar for !!!
its detection range would be equally or even higher than typhoon captor E

so rather a passive killer RAFALE with highly capable EW suite & long range AIR to ground capabilities with customized Russian/indian/isreali weapons can be better option for IAF

rafale radar meets the basic requirement even exceed that IAF requirement of aesa radar detection range








sancho said:


> *And the upgrade potential within the next 5 years is simply better for the EF / Captor-E, than what we see for Rafale / RBE2*.


GEEZ

Time & again you always swing back to the same old fantasy stuff about upgrades for Captor E meanwhile ignoring that within next 5years they can only induct basic radar 2 captor e aesa radar forget about upgrades as it's for 2020+ or it can be even later than that

beleive it or not *funds is the crunch issue at the moment for consortium group* if they manage to induct the basic captor E aesa radar also by 2018-19 that would be also a great thing forget about upgrades

Meanwhile you keep on ignoring rafale thales already signed the deal for EA/ESM version of rbe 2 aesa study
so it does makes sense that they might field EA/ESM version of RBE 2 aesa radar on rafale F3R by 2020
which typhoon cant




























sancho said:


> Not really, EF officials stated that source codes would be diverted too, be it in our MMRCA, or in the S. Korean or Japanese tenders. The industrial advantage that Rafale or the EF offers compared to US fighters are a key in their bids and the partnership in the EF consortium was indeed a big chance:
> 
> 
> 
> Eurofighter optimistic to win India’s MMRCA contract | IndiaPost


Easiear said than done

that is for partner basically if we become also ,but for that we have spend $$$ from own pocket in R/D for Captor E which meets our IAF reuirements

& yet still have to be dependent on respective EF consortium government approval .& their nature of relationship with us eyeing the geo political scenarios every time









sancho said:


> The real benefit for India from an industrial point of view, would had been, that the EF customer base is far bigger than Rafales, which makes any part that is produced in India and would be part of new or upgraded EF, would be produced in far bigger numbers than it can be for Rafales.* If the current government had the chance to shortlist one of the fighters, I'm sure they would prefer the EF bid, simply by the fact that the outcome for the privat Indian industry would be far higher, which makes it more suitable to the Make in India campaign*.



*another Subramanian Swamy in the making*


*GOOD LUCK on that *



*CHEERS*


----------



## sancho

DrSomnath999 said:


> for your kind information
> IRST was also one of the requirement of MMRCA



You still don't get it. IAF sets the requirement of IRST, Dassault replies with (now) diverting ToT and the production of the IRST to India, but that adds additional costs to start a new production line and even more for a newly developed IRST. The customer then has to decide, if they still need IRST with additional costs, if they want to spend even more for the development, or if they can compromise as French forces, with the advantages the TV channel offers and partially MICA seekers. So only because it was part of the RFP, doesn't mean that it's available now, nor that we have to take it at the end, if the cost is too high. That's what the FSO is the prime offer, with the IRST channel as an option to fulfill the initial requirements, what comes out at the end will be decided now at the price negotiations.



DrSomnath999 said:


> thats your over optimistic claim not the fact



Or a simple logical based on what the vendors officially states in their advertisements! Btw, if you apply your logic, we must get a lower number of T/R modules in the RBE 2 AESA than French forces too, which then puts the performance of the AESA far lower, but as Thales and Dassault stated, it has around 1000 T/R modules and that's the benchmark that a customer will get as well, just as Captor-E is given with around 1500 T/R modules. Don't deny the obvious only because you don't like it!
In terms of radar the Rafale was always meant to be behind, but that's not a big issue, since the priority was given to the passive detection capabilities anyway, but with the lack of proper IRST capabilities that will be reduced too.



DrSomnath999 said:


> Radar 1+ or 2 which is for partner states would have serious enhancement in detection range



Radar 1+ is most likely the fully developed export version, while Radar 1 was the early version, that was meant to have A2A modes only (a similar split of the same version as T3A and B, or P2E-A and B). But since no export customer was ready to fund it, the EF partners now directly go to radar 1+ for exports and radar 2 for them, which reportedly is 80% similar to radar 1+.



DrSomnath999 said:


> but for INDIA they gonna have to develop their own radar



Which is wrong, there is and never was an own radar development for India. They only could offer a radar with A2A modes according to the original timeline of the RFP. The radar they now have funded, is meant to be ready around 2017 (fits the current time line) and fully multi mode capable, except for the advanced modes that are limited to partners only, since their versions will be developed only for the retrofit around 2019.



DrSomnath999 said:


> plus we have to pay extra in R/D on aesa radar of captor e which is for IAF's typhoon as we going to be partner so we have to be a partner in bearing the expenses of R/D of captor E radar



And gain IP rights in return, but I doubt that it's that much of a cost issue when you keep in mind that the costs are shared between India and 4 partners, while we now have to fund Litening integration, IRST production line and HMS for Rafale alone. That's even why I don't understand why the French went alone with the F3R, since joint development also would had meant joint share of costs. But it is now as it is and we have to add costs for Rafale as mentioned too.



DrSomnath999 said:


> BUT whats the big deal for INDIA ???



The once that you claim form Rafale, just that they will be available much later only.
Far higher field of view and detection range, which makes it more suitable in mini AWACS roles than Rafale F3+ or F3R, therefor an equal if not superior alternative to the MKI in these roles. Most likely EA capability of the AESA, far earlier than Rafale can have it, which then would make it superior choice in the deepstrike and SEAD roles against China (simple example, MKI with Brahmos around covered by Rafale and SPECTRA jammers, or by EF with Captor-E and EA capabilities, what would be preferable?).



DrSomnath999 said:


> beleive it or not *funds is the crunch issue at the moment for consortium group*




Which again is just a wrong conclusion! The EF "consortium" is developing and pre-funding AESA for years and even in seperated programs. What was lacking was the government funding (EF "partners") for the final radar and that step now finally was taken, which makes the rest not a big deal anymore. The repositioner is developed, basically even for the Gripen NG, where Selex is benefitting too, just as Cassidan is from the joint development with Thales on AESA modules. So they don't start from scratch as you might think, in fact the development and production of the radar 1+ might be easier than than the development of radar 2, where the partners (especially Germany or Spain) have to agree on joint funding again, while they might be ok with the less advanced radar 1+, which leaves UK either alone or with the Italians to push for radar 2.



DrSomnath999 said:


> Meanwhile you keep on ignoring rafale thales already signed the deal for EA/ESM version of rbe 2 aesa *study*




Which as already mentioned is aimed on the MLU upgrades and only because you don't like the fact that the EF might have that capability earlier, doesn't change the fact that the F3R is not aimed to have EA capability, nor GaN, side arrays, engine upgrades, weapon pods and other things that are studied now. When they will be available, they surely will add Rafales capabilities, but that's a decade away and not important for the MMRCA in short or mid term.


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## Iggy

*Specifically Why India's Rafale Deal Is Held Up*

*



So, as I mentioned in my earlier post, sticking points in negotiations between Dassault Aviation and HAL remain the chief reason why a draft contract hasn't reached finality. There have been a few reports that point to general difficulties in negotiations between HAL and Dassault on liability for the 108 aircraft that the former will license build in Bangalore. What you probably haven't heard about are the specific stumbling blocks. There are basically three:


Responsibility for the 108 aircraft in terms of liability, damages and attendant clauses on access, inspection and post-manufacture testing. Dassault's concern is that HAL hasn't built up any of the fixed assets which the company feels would be the minimum requirement to begin discussing the modalities of the kind of liability HAL wants Dassault to take on for the jets built in India. With the last 60 aircraft to be as much as 90% 'Made in India', 
The ball is apparently in HAL's court, with Dassault telling the Cost Negotiation Committee (CNC) that it still awaits figures from HAL on the financial specifics of the liability it is seeking to transfer to Dassault. Dassault has asked HAL to clarify the specifics of any similar liability parameters in comparable deals like HAL's Su-30 MKI production line on license from Russia.
Modalities of licensee/licensor and the manner in which the final agreement sets down their roles. Things are actually more contentious than most believe/report. Dassault has even flagged up issues with access to HAL's facilities.
Done and dusted clauses of the exhaustive contract cover pretty much all other aspects. The company's aversion for HAL manifested itself two years ago when it was revealed that Dassault wanted to built some of its aircraft with Reliance Industries' new defence business. With an irritated HAL putting its foot down and asserting itself as the principal production partner, the relationship between the two has been, well, uncertain at best. Both sides will be looking to new leadership at the MoD to get things moving.
*
*LIVEFIST: EXCLUSIVE: Specifically Why India's Rafale Deal Is Held Up*

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## DrSomnath999

*an excellent article from my pal BRUNO*

*Burst: revolution in evolution*

In recent weeks, it seems that the French combat aircraft is again entered the heart of the French media after years of incessant bashing. Many renowned newspapers and journals to promote the merits of our national hunter, while the signing of a contract has certainly never been so close. 
While it is true that the Rafale has strengths that make it an aircraft capable and accomplished, and that appears above the lot in some areas, it is one that is never mentioned, but nevertheless deserves attention: its scalability. 
The Rafale was designed as an airplane weapon system with an open architecture, can be improved indefinitely-or almost. And here lies the true strength that only time will be able to reveal to many observers and critics of the program, they are not limited to appearances of an airplane that flew for the first time there is more to this 20 years. 



*Scalability of modern fighter aircraft* 

One of the best examples we offer history in terms of evolution of a fighter is certainly the F-16. The little fighter day it was in the late 70s, he gradually shifted to the aircraft status to everything, the workhorse of many Western armies, with thanks to its latest standards (Block60 / 61 including UAE) Capacity far from being matched by many other planes, even more recent. 
But if the cell remains the same, within the plane, all or almost changed. All electronic equipment component weapon system (radar, computers, jammers, radar warning receiver, IFF, etc.) have been replaced. If the manufacturer of the aircraft was the economy of the design of a new cell, engines, flight controls and all tests in the wind tunnel and flight requires that we have much to do every time a system of new weapon. If the plane has indeed evolved, it would be better to speak of modernization rather than evolution. 
So new that 40 years later, new aircraft still out of his production line. In 1975, who could have imagined that? And even today, it remains a feat. A fact which is not unique and is now entering history. The life of a fighter as a whole has increased exponentially.For it is not permitted by the performance for airframe / powerplant that has become a key factor in the aircraft's performance in combat, but rather its weapon system. 

*Dassault Aviation: Technique small steps* 

On this basis, it would be tempting to imagine that the designers of the Rafale focused philosophy of Marcel Dassault, the "small steps" technique on the design of the weapon system to equip the aircraft. 
The technique of "small steps" is very simple to understand. The company founder wanted to take the least amount of risk in the design of an airplane. Thus, when a new aircraft was designed, it was still using an existing engine. While progress had been made in aerodynamics, it would not change the wings while keeping the same cell. And this is where the history of the series of mysteries to the Mirage. Even the design of the technology demonstrator Rafale does not start from scratch, since it is largely based on the achievements of the late Super Mirage 4000 program. 

Bring this philosophy on a weapon system is not so simple. Especially with the advent of computers, all systems overlap between them. The slightest change can affect all systems, processes, testing and validation are complex, lengthy and extremely rigorous. 
The computer constantly evolving, both in terms of hardware architecture that computer languages allow to make feasible the development of an entire system for 30 or 40 years ahead is a challenge. 

Designers of Rafale systems will therefore be based on two concepts well established in the field of IT, but rarely exploited in aviation, and certainly never at this scale: modularity, and virtualization. 


*A modular hardware architecture* 

The basic principle of modularity, its very definition, is to move or add items as needed. So we want to design a system that can evolve over time, adding "modules" for additional power when it will prove necessary. The Rafale will have a central computer called UPDTs (Modular Data Processing Unit) or EMTI French (Modular Equipment 
Information Processing). Each UPDTs is physically composed of a backplane with 18 slots that can accommodate as many modules. 




In detail: 
Each module is composed of a motherboard, a processor (CPU) and memory. 
When switching to the fourth tranche of production, the new Rafale were delivered with more powerful modules to support the workload ADDITION system provided by the various hardware upgrades, and also to face the greatest data generated in the data fusion system by an AESA radar able to see further and do more things at the same time. 
In 2003, and for the production of the Rafale F2 standard, each module EMTI Rafale was composed of a PowerPC 740 running at 200MHz, and accompanied by 64MB of memory. In 2006, the modules now have an embedded Power PC 750 clocked at 733Mhz with 256MB of memory. 
Regarding the current production standard, at most we know as processors, always based on the Power architecture, exceeded the Giga hertz and became multicore. 

The computing capacity depending on the hardware architecture embedded in the Rafale are scalable and virtually limitless. If this is the bottleneck that could become the width of the Bus UPDTs, a problem that is not without solutions. 

And that's not all. For not only the modules are replaceable EMTI more powerful, but Dassault Aviation has planned wide as a second location is available to add a second Rack EMTI ... 


*Virtualization systems.* 

Returning to the example of the modernization of the F-16, every new standard included the arrival of new materials, and new software should always be created to use them. 
To oversimplify, each software is created and depends on the hardware it was designed to work. How to make sure as the Rafale software can continue to evolve in the coming decades, without having to rewrite everything should the equipment change? Simple answer: virtualization! 

Virtualization allows a hardware abstraction. The software works in an environment that will remain the same throughout his life, and only the software part (hypervisor) for the link between the hardware and the environment will be adapted. 

During the installation of the first EMTI modules based on a new generation of processor in 2006, the engineers booted and ... everything worked the first time! If further tests are carried out to ensure the regression of the aircraft systems, no rewriting software code to which the Rafale weapons system was required. 

*Update burst* 

The software development is not stopped for a fighter. With the permanent addition of new weapons, equipment, or to meet the new threats, the battle system endlessly evolving. Software upgrades are delivered as standard. There are the main standard F1 / F2 / F3, each divided into sub-standards. Currently, the service standard is the F3.3 '(premium). 
The update of a Rafale is made just hours via connecting a computer to the aircraft. It follows a verification of systems and the aircraft is operational again! 
When the F3R standard should be operational in 2018, all aircraft of the Air Force and the Navy will then put the latest standard in the same way, and all will be able to play with the new nacelle Thales laser designation, or pull the new Meteor very long range missiles. 

*The "Plug & Play" hardware* 

The way a computer, a Rafale automatically recognizes the hardware associated with it. This is now part of everyday life in IT.You do not ask yourself, when you plug a USB drive into your computer, whether to install or not ... And yet it was not so long ago, the addition of any equipment or device required a certain amount of patience to "train" the computer to use the new device. 

The material of the Rafale has also evolved. As we have seen above, the modules of the recently delivered EMTI are more powerful than those installed in older aircraft. Thus, it is possible to interchange modules between newer and some older planes so that the average power calculation is equivalent in all planes in the park. In this way, the air force updates all these more or less homogeneous planes without the need to purchase new modules. Thank you Plug & Play; but it goes much further than that. 


_The C137 was the first burst out of the assembly line in Merignac with the new radar RBE2 active antenna, in October 2012. But it does not benefit long because the EASA RBE2 will be dismantled and reassembled in a two-seater within hours of delivery, in order to conduct flight tests with additional crew member._ _Thank you Plug & Play!_


The planes of the fourth tranche of production are delivered from the end of 2013. They embark new "peripheral" significantly increasing the aircraft combat capabilities, such as DDM-NG or AESA Radar RBE2 equipped an active antenna. The equipment is expensive, and the current state of the Air Force Finance certainly does not allow to buy to put all the Rafale to date. But to maximize the operational level of the park, and when an aircraft of the fourth tranche is unavailable due to maintenance, for example, it is quite possible to dismantle the new radar, and then mount it on one of the first aircraft delivered 2005. Since the software it is updated, it will have no problem to recognize and exploit the full potential of his new device. Duration of operation, less than three hours! 


*Summary and conclusion:* 

With EMTI, virtualization and management devices, the Rafale was designed as a platform with strong potential for development.Although all had to be modernized deeply to acquire modern skills, none for the moment can claim to offer such a high level of integration, enabling it to evolve as easily and thus at lower cost. To see this, just look at the competition. 

Saab has launched a major program to modernize its Gripen. Apart from the change in structure that will bring a more powerful engine and more fuel, the majority of electronic equipment are different. Besides the fact that development efforts are important, and not speaking of structural change, the old planes do not benefit from the improvements, except to go through the "factory" box. 

Closer to the Rafale, Eurofighter we, which was designed with a more traditional methodology. Thus, aircraft production units 1, 2 and 3 each have standard hardware and software of their own (not to mention the plethora of sub-standards). The fleet is not homogeneous, and this leads to a loss of operational efficiency on the one hand, a reduction in the useful life of the first on the other aircraft, but also became a logistical puzzle partly explains the high cost of maintenance in operational conditions of the aircraft. See article: 
There is also the case of the F-35 that develops two software standards with the same capabilities, but on different hardware. The Block 2F is indeed equivalent to the F-35B 3I block of the F-35A, but the two planes do not have the same hardware ... 

With a cell torque / engine with good performance and a weapon system able to evolve without limit, the Rafale offers its users a scalable weapon system so that the prospect of replacing the aircraft became secondary ... The Rafale is called to succeed himself for many years. 

Google Traduction

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## Agent_47

SPECTRA is just as jammer ? Rafale AESA will not have EA capabilities?
@sancho


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## sancho

Agent_47 said:


> SPECTRA is just as jammer ? Rafale AESA will not have EA capabilities?



Spectra is an EWS that includes jammers, which also will be upgraded in the F3R upgrade. The RBE 2 radar won't have jamming capability in the short or mid term. That is aimed at the MLU around 2025 and most likely in combination with conformal arrays to provide a wide field of view.

Next live trial of EF upgrades:



> *FIRST STORM SHADOW MISSILE RELEASE FROM A EUROFIGHTER TYPHOON IS A SUCCESS*
> 
> The Italian aerospace and defence company Alenia Aermacchi, working closely with its Eurofighter partners, has successfully conducted the first release of a Storm Shadow missile from a Eurofighter Typhoon aircraft as part of its missile integration programme.
> 
> The trials took place in November and saw the missile being released from the aircraft and tracked by radar up to impact.



Eurofighter Typhoon | FIRST STORM SHADOW MISSILE RELEASE FROM A EUROFIGHTER TYPHOON IS A SUCCESS

If one likes it or not, they are showing some good pace with the upgrades. AESA funding, Paveway IV, Meteor and Storm Shadow trials within one month.


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## C130

sancho said:


> Spectra is an EWS that includes jammers, which also will be upgraded in the F3R upgrade. The RBE 2 radar won't have jamming capability in the short or mid term. That is aimed at the MLU around 2025 and most likely in combination with conformal arrays to provide a wide field of view.
> 
> Next live trial of EF upgrades:
> 
> 
> 
> Eurofighter Typhoon | FIRST STORM SHADOW MISSILE RELEASE FROM A EUROFIGHTER TYPHOON IS A SUCCESS
> 
> If one likes it or not, they are showing some good pace with the upgrades. AESA funding, Paveway IV, Meteor and Storm Shadow trials within one month.



are you a proponent for the proponent for the eurofighter???

baby is starting to get real teeth now for A2G

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## sancho

seiko said:


> *The company's aversion for HAL manifested itself two years ago when it was revealed that Dassault wanted to built some of its aircraft with Reliance Industries' new defence business. *



An important part if true, I asked him if Dassault really wanted to build complete fighters at Reliance or just more parts, but didn't got a reply. In any case, it shows in what way the issue with HAL needs to be seen.



C130 said:


> are you a proponent for the proponent for the eurofighter???
> 
> baby is starting to get real teeth now for A2G



No, I am a proponent for the best for India (IAF and Indian industry), that's why I'm looking at all sides to see the pros and cons.


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## Iggy

sancho said:


> If one likes it or not, they are showing some good pace with the upgrades. AESA funding, Paveway IV, Meteor and Storm Shadow trials within one month.



You know in one thread @SpArK told me that India will sign the agreement regarding fighter aircrafts this financial year with or without Rafale.. At that time, I thought he was joking.. But reading about the sudden upgrades of Eurofighter now I am confused whether he is joking or not!!


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## C130

sancho said:


> An important part if true, I asked him if Dassault really wanted to build complete fighters at Reliance or just more parts, but didn't got a reply. In any case, it shows in what way the issue with HAL needs to be seen.
> 
> 
> 
> No, I am a proponent for the best for India (IAF and Indian industry), that's why I'm looking at all sides to see the pros and cons.




I see. what are you thoughts on the Super Hornet for India. 
I know it's not as capable as the Rafale/EFT, but for the cost it seems like it would meet most of IAF needs.


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## Pichkari

C130 said:


> I see. what are you thoughts on the Super Hornet for India.
> I know it's not as capable as the Rafale/EFT, but for the cost it seems like it would meet most of IAF needs.




Its a bit more than just meeting needs.
American weaponry comes with a lot of strings attached.A real headache for india.
It wouldnt be wise to buy our main front line weapons from usa.


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## C130

Pichkari said:


> Its a bit more than just meeting needs.
> American weaponry comes with a lot of strings attached.A real headache for india.
> It wouldnt be wise to buy our main front line weapons from usa.



times have changed.
and the goal is get India self sufficent right
give you the blue print and know how to make the GE-414 and other goodies

if you can build the F-18 Advance Super Hornet for less than $80 million that's a win win

plus the Next Generation Jammer will be fielded by 2021 so that should be just as good as Spectra


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## Pichkari

C130 said:


> times have changed.
> and the goal is get India self sufficent right
> give you the blue print and know how to make the GE-414 and other goodies
> 
> if you can build the F-18 Advance Super Hornet for less than $80 million that's a win win
> 
> plus the Next Generation Jammer will be fielded by 2021 so that should be just as good as Spectra



The advantages don't outweigh the costs in this case.
Its not simply the question about quality of american weaponry.There are geo-political considerations as well
Thers a long history of sanctions.USA- india relations have only recently improved.For a major part of history things were bad.
So there's some trust deficit.
Plus it bound to piss off the russians as well.
Simply put the current policy is to buy american only when there are no other options left,or there is a great technological difference,neither of which holds true in in this case.


Now things would be different if usa was to offer f22 i guess

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## PARIKRAMA

I had been hearing that rumour of F18 advanced super hornet being discussed for offering under Make in India program. Moreover for some time this speculation gained weight as with the proposed winding of Kaveri program there seems to be completely no new indigenous program to replace Kaveri or to build a new engine. The speculation led to 2 options .. one with Snecma M88 blue print and complete tech absorption and other was GE 404/414 with an ability to further develop them under a JV. For some time, Snecma M88 relucatnce is being cited but US offering a complete tech blueprint for GE 404/414 had been gaining weight especially with US gov keeness to get the max out of indian def purchases pie.

To the query for F22, thats highly unlikely atm as Senate committee for clearance would never approve that in the first place. the more easier route was F35 program (naval) as EMALS would be offered to IN (again speculative as IN showed interest but expectation are there for clearance of its sale to India is growing especially as now it has opened its office for electromagnetic divison in India).

Even though its like comparing apples with oranges, a advanced F18 super hornet is not a bad deal if teh complete blue print of tech is getting transferred. But then again, will Obama walk the last mile and get approval to share such tech with India? Only time will state that.

The bigget issue would be how india would align itself in geopolitical situation with such a deal? thats something we can only guess


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## Major Shaitan Singh

*Canada rates Eurofighter, Super Hornet, Rafale as equally capable to F-35 on most missions*

A new Canadian government report suggests other fighter jets are just as capable as the Lockheed Martin F-35A at fulfilling the nation’s most likely mission needs, potentially opening the door to a competitive acquisition process to replace a fleet of 77 Boeing CF-18s.

Four aircraft – the F-35, the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Dassault Rafale and Eurofighter Typhoon – were compared in the report, called the Evaluation of Options for the Replacement of the CF-18 Fighter Fleet.

Each was assessed on its ability to carry out six mission sets including defence of Canadian airspace, responding to an “international event”, such as the Olympics, in Canada or a terrorist attack, peace enforcement, humanitarian disaster relief and state-on-state war fighting.

All aircraft were deemed low-risk candidates to perform each of the missions up to 2030 and beyond, except in fighting another peer nation. In that category, all the aircraft were deemed a higher risk platform beyond 2030 and none distinguished itself.

Canada does not intend to fight state-on-state wars and rated that contingency as highly unlikely. In the state-on-state war fighting mission, the range was from low to significant in the first timeframe and medium to high in the second timeframe “largely due to the higher level of potential threat confronting fighter aircraft in that mission and the evolution of those threats”, the report says.

“The mission needs analysis undertaken as part of the evaluation of options makes clear that Canadian engagement in future state-on-state conflicts will be highly unlikely,” the report says.

It is more likely that Canada will join in on coalition military actions not “clearly defined state-on-state warfare or explicitly humanitarian assistance missions but rather, as in the case of Libya or Kosovo, something in between,” the report says.

For now, the Harper Administration in Canada still intends to buy 65 F-35s beginning in 2020. Its third annual report on the cost of potentially replacing its fleet of CF-18s with the jet assumes an average per-unit cost of $88.9 million over the period of acquisition. That tallies up to a total $45.8 billion over the life cycle of the fleet, a $141 million increase over the estimate in the 2013 report.

The analysis assumes that Canada will lose 11 F-35As over the fleet’s expected 30-year service life due to normal attrition. "The cost to replace these lost aircraft could be in the order of $1 billion," the report says.

At present, the Canadian government has only $76 million set aside for programme contingencies, far short of the $1 billion estimate for replacement aircraft. The report says that contingency budget is “low for a project of this scope and size”.

That could force Canada to lower the number of F-35s it purchases, the report suggests. That could affect the overall programme cost. Lockheed has promised to bring the per-aircraft cost for the conventional takeoff and landing variant of the jet below $100 million by 2019, but that will require a dramatic ramp in production after 2016 that relies heavily on non-US purchases.


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## Parmanu

PARIKRAMA said:


> I had been hearing that rumour of F18 advanced super hornet being discussed for offering under Make in India program. Moreover for some time this speculation gained weight as with the proposed winding of Kaveri program there seems to be completely no new indigenous program to replace Kaveri or to build a new engine. The speculation led to 2 options .. one with Snecma M88 blue print and complete tech absorption and other was GE 404/414 with an ability to further develop them under a JV. For some time, Snecma M88 relucatnce is being cited but US offering a complete tech blueprint for GE 404/414 had been gaining weight especially with US gov keeness to get the max out of indian def purchases pie.
> 
> To the query for F22, thats highly unlikely atm as Senate committee for clearance would never approve that in the first place. the more easier route was F35 program (naval) as EMALS would be offered to IN (again speculative as IN showed interest but expectation are there for clearance of its sale to India is growing especially as now it has opened its office for electromagnetic divison in India).
> 
> Even though its like comparing apples with oranges, a advanced F18 super hornet is not a bad deal if teh complete blue print of tech is getting transferred. But then again, will Obama walk the last mile and get approval to share such tech with India? Only time will state that.
> 
> The bigget issue would be how india would align itself in geopolitical situation with such a deal? thats something we can only guess




no way. rafale deal is going on rather well. you can not expect this govt to sign anything without looking at it from a fresh perspective. who knows what anthony did with MMRCA. I (personally) am honestly happy anthony didn't sign the MMRCA. THAT would have been disastrous for us. even compared with the delay we have faced so far.

F-22 for IAF is absolute bullcrap ! F-22 is not even for UK, Japan. it was never ever on the table. nor will be.

F-35 makes sense for India when it is naval as pointed out by you. F-35 for IAF will be a nightmare. just imagine the maintainence and repair horror. mkis, mig29s, mirages, jaguars, upcoming tejas. not counting the mrca.

with navy, yes, mig29s for fighter role, f35 for SEAD, jamming, other roles. plus the f35 can coordinate with the US CBGs and the jap/singapore naval resources. it makes perfect sense for the IN.


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## sancho

seiko said:


> You know in one thread @SpArK told me that India will sign the agreement regarding fighter aircrafts this financial year with or without Rafale.. At that time, I thought he was joking.. But reading about the sudden upgrades of Eurofighter now I am confused whether he is joking or not!!



These upgrades have not much to do with us and if the original timeframe of 2015/16 still would had been the aim, they wouldn't have any importance either. But the fact is, Dassault has delayed things and that makes the EF look far more interesting now than it was 2-3 years ago during the L1/L2 evaluation.
In May or June I would have given the EF good chances for a new bid too, but it seems their cost reduction offer was not too impressing and that the government didn't found a way to reconsider as they did in other tenders. The new DM gave the first official statement that the Rafale remains the only fighter under consideration. That means, unless Dassault mess this deal up, we will see a final selection till march (which I predicted some month ago, when the media kept talking about a fast decision after the elections), what we still don't know is, how the final package will look like.


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## Iggy

sancho said:


> These upgrades have not much to do with us and if the original timeframe of 2015/16 still would had been the aim, they wouldn't have any importance either. But the fact is, Dassault has delayed things and that makes the EF look far more interesting now than it was 2-3 years ago during the L1/L2 evaluation.
> In May or June I would have given the EF good chances for a new bid too, but it seems their cost reduction offer was not too impressing and that the government didn't found a way to reconsider as they did in other tenders. The new DM gave the first official statement that the Rafale remains the only fighter under consideration. That means, unless Dassault mess this deal up, we will see a final selection till march (which I predicted some month ago, when the media kept talking about a fast decision after the elections), what we still don't know is, how the final package will look like.



If we had opened a parallel negotiation with Eurofighter also, it would have given Rafale guys enough pressure to make the deals faster and more beneficial to us. Now they are saying they need to negotiate some more on this deal. And I really dont understand why we need to invest this much money for a stop gap fighter? I mean we will go for 5th gen fighter in next decade and we will have another Mig 21s in our hands..


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## sancho

C130 said:


> I see. what are you thoughts on the Super Hornet for India.
> I know it's not as capable as the Rafale/EFT, but for the cost it seems like it would meet most of IAF needs.



No, it doesn't comply to several requirements, be it flight performance, IRST, ToT of critical techs..., it is cheap because it is far less capable and that's why Boeing offered the growth options at the end, but if India funds them, the cost would be far higher too and that with limited tech transfer.
The F16 was the better US offer, since it's flight performace, the IRST, the more capable EW of the Block 60 as well as the costs would had made it preferable. On the other side, the same weapon pack and industrial limitations, the fact that PAF knows the fighter and could had evaluated the UAE versions, made it a no go. Sad, the F16IN would had formed a great hi lo combo with the MKI, just in operational terms. 
M-MRCA mainly was a test how serious the US is with opening up to India and providing proper arms and techs. It might be at a better level compared to what you give Pakistan, but far below to what we have on the table from Europeans, Russians or Israelis. And as long as the US laws restricts weapons, capabilities and industrial advantages to India, the US vendors won't win large tenders.



seiko said:


> If we had opened a parallel negotiation with Eurofighter also, it would have given Rafale guys enough pressure to make the deals faster and more beneficial to us. Now they are saying they need to negotiate some more on this deal. And I really dont understand why we need to invest this much money for a stop gap fighter? I mean we will go for 5th gen fighter in next decade and we will have another Mig 21s in our hands..



Well, the decision to take the L1 to prefered negotiations in 2012 was the right one from our side, but we couldn't expect that Dassault would take so long to comply to the requirements and would start the HAL issue. Back then the biggest concern for delays were cost negotiations.
M-MRCA is not a stop gap fighter! That's a common misunderstanding, because the initial idea of the MRCA tender was to get a fast to induct fighter to counter LCA delays.But with the M2K production running out and the possibility to see what the US actually are ready to offer, the new tender had far different aims. Advanced capabilities, future potential and a high priority on industrial benefits were now more important than cost-effectivity or that the winner was fast to induct. That's why the 2 most costly fighters, that however offered the most capability and industrial advantages were prefered.
It's also a common myth, that having 5th gen fighters means, that they will be used in any mission all the time. Apart from the US, that doesn't care about getting bankrupt, all nations will use 4.5th gen fighters for the bulk of the operations. Even China is mainly inducting J10 and J11 versions for the same aim and that's where M-MRCA has it's importance for IAF and where LCA simply is no alternative. It was a mistake to go for a light class fighter in the first place, but we thought we could counter the lack of capability with large numbers. The delays now rules large numbers out and that makes the addition of capability to the fleet important again.

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## halloweene

Just for info, 3 Rafales are flying tests with F3-R software atm


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## PARIKRAMA

halloweene said:


> Just for info, 3 Rafales are flying tests with F3-R software atm


gud news.. whats your views now after reading sancho's take on EF 's suitability for India now as MMRCA itself is long delayed... You see or hear any murmurs for signing by Mar 15?


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## C130

sancho said:


> No, it doesn't comply to several requirements, be it flight performance, IRST, ToT of critical techs..., it is cheap because it is far less capable and that's why Boeing offered the growth options at the end, but if India funds them, the cost would be far higher too and that with limited tech transfer.
> The F16 was the better US offer, since it's flight performace, the IRST, the more capable EW of the Block 60 as well as the costs would had made it preferable. On the other side, the same weapon pack and industrial limitations, the fact that PAF knows the fighter and could had evaluated the UAE versions, made it a no go. Sad, the F16IN would had formed a great hi lo combo with the MKI, just in operational terms.
> M-MRCA mainly was a test how serious the US is with opening up to India and providing proper arms and techs. It might be at a better level compared to what you give Pakistan, but far below to what we have on the table from Europeans, Russians or Israelis. And as long as the US laws restricts weapons, capabilities and industrial advantages to India, the US vendors won't win large tenders.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, the decision to take the L1 to prefered negotiations in 2012 was the right one from our side, but we couldn't expect that Dassault would take so long to comply to the requirements and would start the HAL issue. Back then the biggest concern for delays were cost negotiations.
> M-MRCA is not a stop gap fighter! That's a common misunderstanding, because the initial idea of the MRCA tender was to get a fast to induct fighter to counter LCA delays.But with the M2K production running out and the possibility to see what the US actually are ready to offer, the new tender had far different aims. Advanced capabilities, future potential and a high priority on industrial benefits were now more important than cost-effectivity or that the winner was fast to induct. That's why the 2 most costly fighters, that however offered the most capability and industrial advantages were prefered.
> It's also a common myth, that having 5th gen fighters means, that they will be used in any mission all the time. Apart from the US, that doesn't care about getting bankrupt, all nations will use 4.5th gen fighters for the bulk of the operations. Even China is mainly inducting J10 and J11 versions for the same aim and that's where M-MRCA has it's importance for IAF and where LCA simply is no alternative. It was a mistake to go for a light class fighter in the first place, but we thought we could counter the lack of capability with large numbers. The delays now rules large numbers out and that makes the addition of capability to the fleet important again.



Flight Performance- Rafale is indeed more agile and has greater range, but F-18 SH isn't that terrible really considering. and with conformal fuel tanks and EWP should get a lot more range.




IRST-believe we are getting IRST for the the F-18 SH and teen series in general 
Navy Approves Production of F/A-18 Infrared Tracking Pod | Defense: Aviation International News
ToT-not sure how they offered in the first place, and if they would offer more if they had a second go
EW-EA-18 growler with the Next Generation Jammer would be formidable

I'm still rooting for Rafale, but if India could get a better deal then why not..


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## halloweene

PARIKRAMA said:


> gud news.. whats your views now after reading sancho's take on EF 's suitability for India now as MMRCA itself is long delayed... You see or hear any murmurs for signing by Mar 15?


First of all, according to Scorpion (and noone can qualify him of a typhoon basher), will ewist in export and domestic versions (+ later UK version). IOC scheduled in 2021.
Brimstone is definitely a nice weapon, but rather expensive in its latest iterations. Atm AdA is leading a "crash program" for Irak for a low cllateral damage weapon. No idea what it is.
Things we bloggers and journalists can not now but are very important. Like the flight domain to delivery armament, mission profiles, acquisition time for ground assets etc.
For example : Typhoon will be able to deliver 2 Storm Shadow missiles. Ok. At which distance? Altitude? Range?
Btw some little articles are starting to show up about F4 standard. But very evasive.


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## PARIKRAMA

halloweene said:


> First of all, according to Scorpion (and noone can qualify him of a typhoon basher), will ewist in export and domestic versions (+ later UK version). IOC scheduled in 2021.
> Brimstone is definitely a nice weapon, but rather expensive in its latest iterations. Atm AdA is leading a "crash program" for Irak for a low cllateral damage weapon. No idea what it is.
> Things we bloggers and journalists can not now but are very important. Like the flight domain to delivery armament, mission profiles, acquisition time for ground assets etc.
> For example : Typhoon will be able to deliver 2 Storm Shadow missiles. Ok. At which distance? Altitude? Range?
> Btw some little articles are starting to show up about F4 standard. But very evasive.





F4 standard.. now thats even nicer.. Any chance of understanding what could be potentially India evolutionary standard or program? its pertinent as if the French and Indian standards are too far apart then economies of scale wont work thereby meaning a more costly, time consuming and resource intensive upgrade programs.

Also hearing some rumours of M88 total TOT blueprint getting shared.. murmur increased post abandonment of domestic engine development (kaveri) program. But no concrete word..


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## Abingdonboy

C130 said:


> I'm still rooting for Rafale, but if India could get a better deal then why not..



See this is where things get murky. What does one define the "best deal" as?Ask the Indian aerospace industry they will say one thing, they might even say the Gripen (talking hypothetically here) but for sure the IAF would say the Rafale because the talks with Dassualt are the most advanced and the deal is close to completion. They know the Rafale is an incredible bird and within touching distance for them. They have no appetite to wait another 2-3 years whilst the GoI talks to someone else be it the EFT consortium or Boeing.

And isn't it obvious that as time passes the competitors of the Rafale will be moving forward and showcasing capabilities? Let's not forget that that is IRRELEVANT. At the time the trails were conducted the F-18 SH failed to meet certain technical criteria set by the IAF and the EFT was found to bee more expensive than the Rafale. The Rafale is the ONLY possible option, this revisionism isn't going to help the IAF and that, surely, is the number 1 priority here?

Oh and it's not like Dassualt is going to stand still, the Rafale too well be upgraded and with India on board this will be more more aggressive.


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## DrSomnath999

PARIKRAMA said:


> Also hearing some rumours of M88 total TOT blueprint getting shared.. murmur increased post abandonment of domestic engine development (kaveri) program. But no concrete word..



Not impossible but you did post a valid point though

if kaveri is indeed scrapped then a new aero program from GTRE if indeed happens then they would have role from Scenema in it's development

but how much??

time would tell

we are not buying rafale for granted 

*CHEERS*


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## sancho

C130 said:


> ToT-not sure how they offered in the first place, and if they would offer more if they had a second go



ToT is not about more or less, the requirement was 50% and that can be done by providing basic ToT for the production of airfame parts for example, or critical parts like radar, engine EW and the share of these critical techs is restricted for US products.



C130 said:


> EW-EA-18 growler with the Next Generation Jammer would be formidable


Which is not available for India, not even the Growler light that Boeing wanted to offer to non NATO export countries like Brazil or India, was ever approved by the US government.



C130 said:


> I'm still rooting for Rafale, but if India could get a better deal then why not..


*That's exactly my point*, just that I think the only other choice that can offer a better deal, is the EF consortium, because they are the only other choice that can cover most of the operational requirements and even a better industrial offer, but so far they doesn't seem to have made an offer that we can't reject.



Abingdonboy said:


> See this is where things get murky. What does one define the "best deal" as?Ask *the Indian aerospace industry they will say one thing*, they might even say the Gripen (talking hypothetically here) *but for sure the IAF would say the Rafale*...



And that's because none of them is important in the final decision making, but MoD is the only interesting part now. They have to consider all sides and not only one.



Abingdonboy said:


> And isn't it obvious that as time passes the competitors of the Rafale will be moving forward and showcasing capabilities? Let's not forget that that is IRRELEVANT.



No it's not, because the others are catching up because they actually are working on capability changers, while Rafale is pretty much stuck for the last few years to an extend and got even worse than during the trials. That's why things are looking different now too. You see EF catching up with PW4 and Stormshadow, while even overtaking with Meteor and Brimstone. The F18 is developing CFTs and weaponpods, which doesn't make it more compliant to the RFP requirements, but "IF" they would be available for India now, they care clear game changers in terms of RCS reductions.
At the same time, what happened for the Rafale since 2012 when the first F3+ rolled out?

- *No IRST anymore* (result is, that we have to fund the production)
- *Damocles XF cancelled* (result is, that we have to fund the Litening integration or take the Talios which no other fighter in the fleet can use)
- *no low collateral damage weapon as planned* (which limits Rafale to 500lb LGBs or more costly AASMs and the IAF learned in Kargil how important precision weapons in smaller size and lower costs are in CAS roles)
- *no AASM 1000 as planned* (result is, that we most likely have to fund the integration of SPICE 2000 again)
- *no addition of AASM 125 to improve at least SEAD capability* (result is, that we may have to fully integrate it, or to fund the integration of a longer range SEAD weapon that is more suitable for our environment)
- *Meteor only from 2018 onwards *(which however is the least problem, because of the delayed delivery of M-MRCAs)

So we can't just say, Rafale is a great fighter today and close our eyes for the problems it does have. Any problem we have to solve now, comes with additional costs, that are not even shared costs since we now have an Indian upgrade path and a French one.
And as I told you before, the EF offers actually the advantage of not talking to the industry now, but talking to the governments and getting fast induction deals possibly even at lower costs, because most of them are cash-strapped and would love to delay some of their orders, just as French government, just that the EF partners can supply more fighters at once. That's the same reason why I'm saying that our MoD has to talk to German and Spains MoD to get A400s at lower costs, because they can't afford them at the moment and we have to take advantage of such situations.
There are opportunities the an EF deal currently can offer us, that can turn the deal as more beneficial, even if it's currently not as good as the Rafale and that's what MoD should consider, especially if Dassault keeps stalling.


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## halloweene

Talios is plug and play pod that can be used by mirages for example. Simply because it covers entire decision chain (some of them not really useful on Rafale which already have video datalinks). It also has some nice features like detection of ground moving targets... Also air to air identification and tracking.
As i explained earlier, a low collateral weapon IS being implemented in a crash program.
Meteor will only be fully integrated on EFA in 2018 also.
But the important things are elsewhere both for F3-R and F4 standard (which will not be MLU btw). It is in weapon systems, radar evolutions and maturation (takes time), new version of spectra using all the sensors to their best. Very high band discrete datalink (for F4) etc. IOC of partners nations Captor E is scheduled by 2021. During this time RBE2 will have much evolved .


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## sancho

halloweene said:


> Talios is plug and play pod that can be used by mirages for example.



It has to be, because the prime reason to go for a pod, was the further use of French M2K-5s and the export potential in the Gulf region, with customers that can't get the Litening.
For IAF however, the Talios is not really important, since they already decided to upgrade the M2Ks with Litening 4s and with the whole fleet using them (LCA, MKI, Mig 29UPG, M2K-5, Jaguar UPG), it is a no brainer which LDP IAF will take for Rafale. That's why I said, it was a huge mistake by Thales / Dassault to not offer the co-development of the pod as part of the ToT / offset package (just like other things), because that had made India commited to the pod too. Now Thales has only a limited order and the French government a huge bill.



halloweene said:


> some of them not really useful on Rafale which already have video datalinks



True, just as most of the techs are already included in the FSO-IT, be it the FLIR or laser range finder and the the visual ID capability. That's why these duplication doesn't really make sense for Rafale, while it adds capabilties for the M2K.
If the visual ID range of Talios is broughtly similar to FSO-IT, it would had made much more sense to use an integrated Talios instead of FSO.

In the meantime:


> *UK-Bahrain Base Deal Could Lead to Typhoon Sales*
> 
> Hopes of Britain selling Typhoon combat jets and other defense and security equipment to Bahrain have been buoyed by a deal between the two countries to extend Royal Navy facilities at the Mina Salman naval base in the Arabian Gulf, industry executives and analysts said...
> 
> ...One industry executive said fighter jets, maritime security, cyber protection and border protection are among the export sectors that could benefit from growing ties between the two countries.
> 
> “The potential relationship could provide lots of opportunities for partnership which are not just confined to Typhoon and not just confined to defense exports,” the executive said. “There is the possibility of a much wider engagement and there have been lots of discussions going on between the two armed forces.”
> 
> Britain has been in discussions over a possible government-to-government sale of 12 to 14 Typhoons to Bahrain for several years.



UK-Bahrain Base Deal Could Lead to Typhoon Sales | Defense News | defensenews.com


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## he-man

DrSomnath999 said:


> Not impossible but you did post a valid point though
> 
> if kaveri is indeed scrapped then a new aero program from GTRE if indeed happens then they would have role from Scenema in it's development
> 
> but how much??
> 
> time would tell
> 
> we are not buying rafale for granted
> 
> *CHEERS*



Impossible.
0 CHANCE.

No one shares engine tech,,no one.


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## sancho

And another one:








> *Typhoon fitted with Brimstone missile for the first time *
> 
> The trial fit is an important milestone in demonstrating the integration of the missile with the aircraft and follows the successful completion of an initial £5M study contract awarded to us by the UK’s Ministry of Defence earlier this year. The trials are helping to pave the way for Brimstone 2 integration for the UK’s Royal Air Force (RAF) by 2018...
> 
> ...Fitting of the Brimstone missile comes in a year that has seen progress across a range of programmes for Typhoon. The UK RAF are now operating the most advanced Typhoon to date with the latest Phase 1 Enhancement package now in operation. This upgrade delivers true simultaneous swing-role capability to Typhoon.
> 
> Progress is also being made across a number of weapons programmes including the award of a full integration contract for the Storm Shadow weapon and further trials to fully integrate the Meteor Beyond Visual Range Air-To-Air missile. In addition an EUR1bn contract to develop and fit the Captor E-Scan radar was signed on 19 November which will give Typhoon one of the most advanced radar systems in the world, providing a wider field of regard than any other combat aircraft.



Newsroom - BAE Systems

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## halloweene

Sancho, co-developments are part of the contract and can't be offered before it is signed imho.


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## Stephen Cohen

@sancho

French Air Chief Confident on Rafale Exports | C4ISR & Networks | c4isrnet.com

In this news there are some points regarding Rafale's future upgradations

The concerns expressed by you are already being looked at by Dassault


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## sancho

halloweene said:


> Sancho, co-developments are part of the contract and can't be offered before it is signed imho.



Why not? The EF consortium offered the joint development of radar or TVC for EF in M-MRCA or LCA MK2s engine tender. Saab offered the joint development of the twin seater and naval Gripen to Brazil.
These techs and capabilities could had been offered as part of the ToT / offset proposal and would had been far more interesting for India too. If there is a joint development of IRST is on offer, it is part of the ToT/offset proposals too right?



Stephen Cohen said:


> The concerns expressed by you are already being looked at by Dassault



No they are not, since neither IRST, HMS, or credible weapon upgrades are considered (btw it once again confirms that Brimstone is out of question for Rafale), that we need now. The future upgrades beyond 2020 are not much of a concern to me, I an looking at what could be available for IAF around the time we get the M-MRCAs from the vendors or when the licence production starts, so upgrades "till" 2020!


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## Stephen Cohen

@sancho

Sir ALL the criticism of Rafale SO FAR in the Indian media
has been about the PRICE and the sidelining of LCA due to Rafale

*None of the criticism has been regarding Rafale's capabilities *

Read this article ; It has already answered your concerns 
TRISHUL: Dassault Aviation’s Rafale Wins India's M-MRCA Competition

In fact the prolonged negotiations do point out that we are EXTRACTING the
*Best possible TOT and offset package ever 

A*fter all IAF / MOD has to sell this deal to the Indian Tax payer


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## halloweene

sancho said:


> Why not? The EF consortium offered the joint development of radar or TVC for EF in M-MRCA or LCA MK2s engine tender. Saab offered the joint development of the twin seater and naval Gripen to Brazil.
> These techs and capabilities could had been offered as part of the ToT / offset proposal and would had been far more interesting for India too. If there is a joint development of IRST is on offer, it is part of the ToT/offset proposals too right?
> 
> 
> 
> No they are not, since neither IRST, HMS, or credible weapon upgrades are considered (btw it once again confirms that Brimstone is out of question for Rafale), that we need now. The future upgrades beyond 2020 are not much of a concern to me, I an looking at what could be available for IAF around the time we get the M-MRCAs from the vendors or when the licence production starts, so upgrades "till" 2020!



As i told earlier, a HMS IS being fully integated. Did you read carefully the article linked above about french CEMAA confident? There are VERY interesting data about post 2020 evolutions (smart skin awaited in 2020-2025, aswell as High speed radar datalink etc.)


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## sancho

Stephen Cohen said:


> Sir ALL the criticism of Rafale SO FAR in the Indian media
> has been about the PRICE and the sidelining of LCA due to Rafale
> 
> None of the criticism has been regarding Rafale's capabilities



Because we don't know the capabilities of the "Indian" Rafale at the moment, we will have to wait and see if IRST or HMS will be part of it and when and my criticizm is mainly on the 2 years delays and what difference that makes for Rafale, the EF and India. 

See it this way, in Jan 2012 the MoD selected the L1 and L2 and the contract was expected to be signed in the same year, with deliveries starting in 2015. Back than and next year the Rafale capability wise is clearly superior, since all the upgrades the EF is currently developing are not available. So based on the evaluations and the delivery timeline by next year, the Rafale was the best choice, but with 2 years delay things have changed and suddenly the EF looks far closer to Rafale, if not even superior in some fields with the delivery now expected in 2017/18 and that's what I'm pointing out.



halloweene said:


> As i told earlier, a HMS IS being fully integated.



But you don't know which HMS, nor who funds the integration, or when it will be available. It can be Topsight funded by India, it can be a Scorpionx HMS as you suggested (pre-funded by Thales), which then needs to be evaluated by French or Indian forces, before we know if it will be ordered or not and if Thales offers one for French forces, Sagem will make a counter offer for sure. 



halloweene said:


> Did you read carefully the article linked above about french CEMAA confident?



Yes and we both know that it doesn't mean anything what officials of the forces state about procurements or exports. The IAF chiefs are stating since 2012 that Rafale will be procured soon, but they only state what they think or what is in their interest. The orders are dependent on Dassault mainly, no matter for which country and even French government knows where the problem is, which is why they criticized Dassault for the UAE negotiations before.
Dassault CEO Éric Trappier was stating since Jan 2014 that the deal will be signed soon or by the end of this year and nothing happend right? Now we know that nothing will happen for months, so I don't give too much about these kind of statements and just wait and see when something happens, be it for India or for any of the Rafale export prospects. 



halloweene said:


> There are VERY interesting data about post 2020 evolutions (smart skin awaited in 2020-2025, aswell as High speed radar datalink etc.)



You think? We heared about smart skin / conformal arrays for years, so that's nothing new and the radar data link capability was advertised for Gripen NG and the EF with their AESAs as a prospect too and I think Europe as a whole is moving pretty much for the same capabilities for their Eurocanards beyond 2020. Be it data link, GaN EW jammers, active EM decoys, advanced passive MAWS and ESM capabilities..., the only difference might be when they will be available for whom? I even expect the Gripen E to have much of it first around 2019.


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## sancho

@halloweene 

Wrt to the search for a smaller weapon for Rafale, I'm curious to know if Safran / Sagem ever thought about developing AASM to an ATGM? I told you before that the AASM 125 development was a mistake, but apart of that, the next expected upgrades reportedly are a dual mode Laser / IR seeker, which could be integrated in a missile hull with a smaller warhead too. Basically going the opposite way that the Brits are going with Brimstone to Spear (ATGM to PGM, by using the same seeker with 2 different hulls) and going from AASM to a missile (PGM to ATGM). Do you think that was or would be considered?


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## halloweene

sancho said:


> Because we don't know the capabilities of the "Indian" Rafale at the moment, we will have to wait and see if IRST or HMS will be part of it and when and my criticizm is mainly on the 2 years delays and what difference that makes for Rafale, the EF and India.
> 
> See it this way, in Jan 2012 the MoD selected the L1 and L2 and the contract was expected to be signed in the same year, with deliveries starting in 2015. Back than and next year the Rafale capability wise is clearly superior, since all the upgrades the EF is currently developing are not available. So based on the evaluations and the delivery timeline by next year, the Rafale was the best choice, but with 2 years delay things have changed and suddenly the EF looks far closer to Rafale, if not even superior in some fields with the delivery now expected in 2017/18 and that's what I'm pointing out.
> 
> 
> 
> But you don't know which HMS, nor who funds the integration, or when it will be available. It can be Topsight funded by India, it can be a Scorpionx HMS as you suggested (pre-funded by Thales), which then needs to be evaluated by French or Indian forces, before we know if it will be ordered or not and if Thales offers one for French forces, Sagem will make a counter offer for sure.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes and we both know that it doesn't mean anything what officials of the forces state about procurements or exports. The IAF chiefs are stating since 2012 that Rafale will be procured soon, but they only state what they think or what is in their interest. The orders are dependent on Dassault mainly, no matter for which country and even French government knows where the problem is, which is why they criticized Dassault for the UAE negotiations before.
> Dassault CEO Éric Trappier was stating since Jan 2014 that the deal will be signed soon or by the end of this year and nothing happend right? Now we know that nothing will happen for months, so I don't give too much about these kind of statements and just wait and see when something happens, be it for India or for any of the Rafale export prospects.
> 
> 
> 
> You think? We heared about smart skin / conformal arrays for years, so that's nothing new and the radar data link capability was advertised for Gripen NG and the EF with their AESAs as a prospect too and I think Europe as a whole is moving pretty much for the same capabilities for their Eurocanards beyond 2020. Be it data link, GaN EW jammers, active EM decoys, advanced passive MAWS and ESM capabilities..., the only difference might be when they will be available for whom? I even expect the Gripen E to have much of it first around 2019.



GaAS CaptorE IOC is scheduled for 2021. Far from smart skin...
About low collateral damage weapon, personnaly i'd go for the german system allowing to program the amount of detonating explosive in order to keep versatility. But i'm not CEMAA


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## DrSomnath999

^^^ but he wont agree to it as usual regarding IOC for 2021 as usual in comparision to claims of GaN t/R module /EA/ESM version of captor E for 2019/20 & if any one disagrees with that 

and as usual he would be emotionallly tortured by replies like 'You dont like my views naah!!!" 

& you have to back off for good!!

*CHEERS*


----------



## Major Shaitan Singh

*Rafale Tested with Maximum Weapons Load – 12 Guided Weapons Underwing*







_*Dassault Aviation has begun testing an upgraded variant of the Rafale configured to carry an expanded configuration of weapons and fuel. This configuration will enable the French strike fighter aircraft to attack more targets and conduct counter-air missions at longer range.*_

At present, the French military remains the single user of this impressive, but controversial jet fighter, since it failed each and every competition except the largest, most lucrative one – the MMRCA competition in India. But Dassault can’t cash in this win, since even after two years of negotiations the contract with the Indian government hasn’t been signed. The Rafale won that competition after it was selected ‘the lowest bidder’, against the Eurofighter Typhoon. But since its selection its cost escalated sharply and almost doubled, bringing the Indian government, currently heading for election, to develop cold feet about their decision to favor the French fighter.

Nevertheless, Dassault is committed to bring new capabilities to the Rafale, according to plan, upgrading the aircraft to the Rafale F3-R standard by 2018. These initial tst flights were only the first in a long series, additional test flights are planned to a complete the clearance of the flight envelope for this configuration, providing the Rafale full multi-role capability at extended range.

Equipped with this configuration, two Rafale aircraft represent the same potential as six Mirage 2000 class aircraft

This configuration comprise a full increment of six air-to-air and six air-to-ground weapons. The air-to-ground ordnance includes six Sagem/MBDA Hammer guided weapons (AASM), carried on two triple-ejector racks, designed specifically for the weapon. The AASM is deployed with one of three optional guidance methods utilizing a GPS guided, laser homing or thermally guided seekers. To extend its range the Hammer is also equipped with a rocket booster. Four MICA air-to-air missiles and two very long range Meteor missiles will be complementing the fighter’s air-to-air capability. The MICA missiles are operational and can be employed with IR or radar guided. These Meteor missiles are yet to enter service – but they are expected to be fielded with the F3-R variant by 2018. In addition to that impressive weapons complement, Rafale will retain its Nexter 30M791 30 mm internal cannon, firing 2500 rounds/min. According to the manufacturer, equipped with this configuration, two Rafale aircraft represent the same potential as six Mirage 2000 class aircraft.

Since June 2013 all production aircraft configured to the new F3-04T-standard are equipped with the new radar, along with an improved front sector optronics equipment (also from Thales) and the DDM-NG passive missile approach warning system, produced by MBDA.

The weapons would take less than a third of the fighter’s payload – the rest will be used to carry fuel to sustain the long range missions the fighter is required to perform. The Rafale can carry up to 9.5 tons of payload (21,000 lbs). To support missions atextended ranges the fighter also carries three 524 gallons (2,000 litre) fuel tanks weighing additional 6.7 tons (14,700 lbs) that will top up the fighter’s internal fuel capacity of 4.7 t (10,300 lbs). These fuel tanks can also be used for ‘buddy refuelling’, further increasing the range and mission endurance of a Rafale-based strike force, a capability particularly important for the naval strike missions.







In the current configuration Rafale carries two Scalp cruise missiles or four direct attack weapons (Hammer/laser guided bombs), with four MICA air-to-air missiles. Photo: French Air Force

In the past the French Rafale could strike deep behind enemy lines utilizing the Scalp cruise missiles, as demonstrated in Libya in 2011. On such missions the Rafales carried two Scalp missiles and three 524 gallon fuel tanks. Other weapons typically carried by the Rafale include GBU-12/24 laser-guided bombs, GBU-49 GPS-guided bombs, AASM and Scalp cruise missiles. On maritime strike missions the Rafale M can also carry the Exocet AM39 Block 2 air-launched anti-ship missile. Since 2010 one of the Air Forces’ Rafale squadrons, EC-1/91 has also assumed the nuclear strike role, carrying ASMP-A missile. By increasing the capabilities of its fourteen hard points, (eight under the wings), with an empty weight of about 10 tons [22000 lbs], the F3 variant is limited to 24.5 tons [54,000 lb.]) thus being capable of carrying 1.5 times its own mass.





Rafale No. 137 was the first to be equipped with Thales’ new RBE2 AESA radar and the new Front Section Optronics Optronic (FSO-IT) suit. Photo: Dassault Aviation

Clearance of this new configuration was initiated and funded by the aircraft maker Dassault Aviation, in collaboration with the Direction Générale de l’Armement (the French Defense Procurement Agency DGA). According to Dassault, the rapid development of the new configuration is attributed to the open architecture of the aircraft, designed from the outset to perform all of the missions previously assigned to seven different types of aircraft in France.

The Rafale entered service with the French Navy in 2004 and with the French Air Force in 2006. Of the 180 aircraft ordered by France to date, 126 have been delivered. India has also selected the Rafale for its Medium Multi Mission Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) requirement, planning to order at least 126 of the jet fighters. However, two years after the selection New Delhi has not finalized the contract with Dassault and, pressed by the upcoming elections, the Indians are considering a limited order of 18 aircraft to be produced in France, as a near-term solution to get the deal in motion.

The defence ministry headed by AK Antony has developed cold feet after the cost doubled compared to the original estimate. With the general elections just months away, Antony is unsure about the fate of the deal, a defence ministry official said. India’s Diligent Media Corporation (DNA) reports. In January 2012, when Rafale was declared the winner, its price was quoted between $60-65 million (Rs373-Rs400 crore). Today, according to the , its price could now soar to $120 million (Rs746 crore). The second bidder, Eurofighter, had quoted $80-85 million (Rs497-Rs528 crore). The price hike would mean that the deal would cost India nothing less than $28-30 billion (Rs1.75 lakh crore-Rs1.86 lakh crore) DNA quoted an anonymous Indian Air Force source close to the negotiation committee. In 2007, when the tender was floated, the cost of the programme was $12 billion (Rs42,000 crore). When the lowest bidder was declared in January 2012, the cost of the deal shot up to $18 billion (Rs90,000 crore).

The Rafale fleet with the French Air Force and Navy currently totals almost 120,000 flight hours, including 16,000 in operations. Since mid-2013, production Rafale aircraft are equipped with an active array RBE2 AESA radar from Thales.

Expected to become operational in 2018, Rafale F3-R will be an evolutionary upgrade of the current F3 variant, a part of an ongoing enhancement of the French fighter. Among the improvements are the introduction of RBE2 active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, developed by Thales. This radar has already been fielded with at least 60 of the Rafales. The first to get the new radar was aircraft #137, that rolled of the production line in October 2012.

Since mid 2013 production aircraft are configured to the new F3-04T-standard are equipped with the new radar, along with an improved front sector optronics (FSO-IT) equipment (also from Thales) and the DDM-NG passive missile approach warning system, produced by MBDA. Another new capability to be integrated with the fighter by 2018 will be the PDL-NG new-generation laser designation pod, currently under development at Thales. Other planned sensors upgrades related to air-to-surface capabilities include assisted target recognition and enhanced sensor resolution, enabling the Rafale to attack ever more elusive targets.

According to Dassault, the ongoing effort will ensure more robust detection, tracking and identification of emerging air-to-air threats, and increase the Rafale’s survivability with new low observable modes and with the latest advances in electronic warfare systems.





The Rafale has successfully completed its first test flights in a new heavily-armed configuration, comprising six air-to-ground precision AASM Hammer missiles, four medium and long range air-to-air missiles from the MICA family, two very long range METEOR missiles, as well as three 2,000 liter fuel tanks. Photo: Dassault Aviation

Rafale Tested with Maximum Weapons Load – 12 Guided Weapons Underwing | Defense Update:

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## sancho

halloweene said:


> GaAS CaptorE IOC is scheduled for 2021. Far from smart skin...



Look what you have done mate, you have confused @DrSomnath999 even more than he normally is. 
You should have said, that that would be Scorpions estimated timeline for the "retrofit" of partner T2s and T3s and not when the radar actually could be available. Also with export and even pre-partner versions beeing developed before IOC version. Not to mention that the radar for the partner is not a single development either, since each of them can choose different capabilities and even time lines for the retrofit, based on their requirements and when they phase out older Tornados and F18s (for Spain). The UK radar is a whole different issue all together, since they have an own development beside the Euroradar one and a requirement earlier than other partners.



halloweene said:


> About low collateral damage weapon, personnaly i'd go for the german system



Which German system do you mean and why not go for an own ATGM based on AASM? Also what happend to the laser guided rocket pod? Should be the most cost-effective choice, at least against light vehicles and ground forces.


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## halloweene

That one my friend

MBDA Tests ‘Scalable Warhead’ Technology | Defense Update:

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## sancho

halloweene said:


> That one my friend
> 
> MBDA Tests ‘Scalable Warhead’ Technology | Defense Update:



Correct me if I'm wrong, the advantage is only, that the pilot / wso can program the weapon before it's launched on how much explosive will be used in that particular right?
If true, that doesn't help Rafale to solve any of it's problems, because the point is not only to reduce the collateral damage, but to have a more suitable weapon for such roles / missions and reduced costs!

Take a CAS mission against the IS, a Rafale with 6 x AASM 250 that have scalable warheads is send out. When the fighter reaches the target area, the pilot realizes that he has to attack not only buildings, but also a convoy of light vehicles. He programs 4 of the AASM with reduced explosives to attack the vehicles, while launches the other 2 at the buildings with full capability. So the scalable warhead gave the pilot the flexibility to use the weapon for different targets with a different punch, but the important point is, *that weapon as such remains the same!*
An AASM 250 launched and a light vehicle, with the used explosives reduced to just 100Kg still costs more than $200.000 Dollars each and that high ammount of cost is what the French government wants to avoid too.

Take the same mission with an EF in the recently shown CAS config with 6 x Brimstone + 2 x PW IV LGBs. The pilot would strike the buildings with PW IV and could use Brimstone missiles for the vehicles. Here the different weapons give the same flexibility and low collateral damage advantage that a scaleable warhead would give, *but also lower overall costs and greater load capabilities!*


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## halloweene

i may answer you that 1) you get flexibility for SCAR mission 2) An AASM kit has a far longer lifetime than a GBU one. EF didn't show anything with Brimstone, they just mounted the kit on a plane. Didn't even fly. And a Brimstone 2 costs half the price of an AASM.
In the end, the operational capability vs cost may not be that much different. And PWIV are far from being as versatile as AASM is.


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## sancho

halloweene said:


> i may answer you that 1) you get flexibility for SCAR mission 2) An AASM kit has a far longer lifetime than a GBU one.



First of all, we are talking about basic CAS here, where you don't need much capability of the weapon. That's why the French forces even considered rocket pods or light LGBs. The prime factor is cost, but the reduced warhead of the AASM 125 obviously was not cheap enough for the French forces to procure it, although it retains the capabilities of the AASM as a whole and was the fastest choice to integrate it.
Secondly, the fact that the French forces prefer GBU kits in basic CAS roles shows, that the longer lifetime isn't a factor when the unit cost between AASM and a GBU 12 or 48 is simply too high to be countered with long term benefits.



halloweene said:


> EF didn't show anything with Brimstone, they just mounted the kit on a plane. Didn't even fly. And a Brimstone 2 costs half the price of an AASM.



I didn't wanted to make the EF look better, but tried to point out the benefit of a mixed weapon load config over the scalable warhead, because the unit cost of a weapon with scalable warhead doesn't change, nor does it add any other capabilities to the weapon. The superior capability of Brimstone in CAS compared to AASM is hardly deniable anyway, especially if the rumored range of Brimstone 2 is really that close to AASM and offer credible stand off capabilities.


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## halloweene

Hey Sancho.
I talked to CEMAA Denis Mercier this summer. a "Fiche d'Expression de Besoin" (technical definition) is being finalized for a smaller weapon than AASM 250. And there is atm a "crash program" for a smaller weapon (or less lethal) running atm due to Irak events. So both AdA and i agree with you about the need of a lighter weapon for "basic" CAS. (ah and there is nothing like a "basic CAS in intricated complex environments, trust my word on that, you know where i come from).
Things take time to be done properly, but there WILL be such a weapon. Which? No idea!

Little Christmas gift...

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## sancho




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## halloweene

I'm not a Typhoon ennemy Sancho, you know me better than that. Missing a film on italian storm shadow release.

Liked the photo?


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## sancho

halloweene said:


> I'm not a Typhoon ennemy Sancho, you know me better than that. Missing a film on italian storm shadow release



Didn't said that you would be one, in fact I consider resonable source and discussion partner. I am just stating points from all sides, to consider what is the best for India or what adds more capability to IAF and even if I still route for the Rafale (since 2008), there are reasons (positive once from the EF and negative once from the Rafale) why my opinion is changing to an extend these days. Just as I am disappointed to see how a huge potential for the Rafale is wasted, by seeing India as an export partner only.



halloweene said:


> Liked the photo?



Not sure what it is pointing to? 


P.S. Didn't found a video of the Storm Shadow launch, the pics are interesting though, pointing towards asymmetric load configs. AFAIK they did the same with GBU10s for spanish EF's too.


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## sancho

Let me quote myself...



sancho said:


> Which German system do you mean and why not go for an own ATGM based on AASM? *Also what happend to the laser guided rocket pod? Should be the most cost-effective choice, at least against light vehicles and ground forces.*




=>



> *About the french rockets (new generation) that arm the attack helicopter TIGER HAD : Interview with TDA*
> 
> ...Apart from mortars, TDA ARMEMENTS SAS develops the rockets that arm the attack helicopter TIGER. Matthieu Krouri, commercial development director of the system of rockets activated by induction (Système de Roquettes Activées par Induction, SRAI), brings us some light upon this purely French technology...
> 
> ...*TB:* We currently find your rockets on aircrafts. Do you envisage adapting them to other platforms: terrestrial, naval, aerial?...
> 
> *MK:* It is the great strategy of TDA ARMEMENTS SAS, which precisely consists in explaining that this rocketing armament, i.e. a munition, can be adapted to series of platforms. The rocket first came back on attack helicopters. *We have launchers adapted to the RAFALE’s point 3*. We also want to equip armored vehicles, ships and drones with them, as you can notice ate EURONAVAL 2014 with the TANAN by AIRBUS (CASSIDIAN). Clearly, the idea of TDA ARMEMENTS SAS is to promote this munition as being adapted to various platforms and to outline that, with the current financing problem, it is relevant for the joint staff to purchase a type of ammunition that can be deployed onto vectors as numerous as possible...



About the french rockets that arm the attack helicopter TIGER HAD : Interview with TDA |







Digital rocket launchers for combat aircraft or combat helicopters


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## black-hawk_101

I think IAF might not going to go for it. As they might ended up buying the FAF 150 Mirage-2000s with upgrade.


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## sathya

black-hawk_101 said:


> I think IAF might not going to go for it. As they might ended up buying the FAF 150 Mirage-2000s with upgrade.



when you want 6 th generation capabilities in jf 17, 

why can't you spare us Rafale in your thoughts?


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## halloweene

sancho said:


> Let me quote myself...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> =>
> 
> 
> 
> About the french rockets that arm the attack helicopter TIGER HAD : Interview with TDA |
> 
> 
> View attachment 176896
> 
> 
> Digital rocket launchers for combat aircraft or combat helicopters


First shooting of laser guided rocket was succesful, but threre is still work to be done...

Le Tigre HAD tire avec précision une roquette à guidage laser - AéroBuzz : Actualité et Information Aéronautique

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## sancho

> *Rafale fighter jet transfer talks put on fast track: Richier*
> 
> ...Negotiations regarding the transfer of Rafale fighter jets from France to India have made good progress and have been put on fast track, Ambassador of France to India, Francois Richier, said in Kolkata on Wednesday.
> Voicing satisfaction over the talks, Mr. Richier, who was on a three-day visit to Kolkata told journalists that the talks, which started in early 2012, have taken three years due to the "importance and complexity" of the deal.
> “*We have decided to finish the negotiations quickly, to put negotiation on fast track. To complete that there is no date fixed but conclusion of negotiations is on the fast track,” the Ambassador said*...



Rafale fighter jet transfer talks put on fast track: Richier - The Hindu


I don't get how officials or the media still can talk about fast tracking after 3 years and when they also admit that they can give a possible date when the deal can be finished.


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## halloweene

In a dream world, HAL has started constructing facilities and accepted Dassault to visit them before accerpting PART of liability. They also agreed that some Dassault personnel will stay in India for a very long time so as to insure HAL (and the rest of supply chain) respect Dassault quality insurance process.
Dassault has accepted PART of responsabilities.
In case of huge problem, liability of each society would be determined by a foreign independant court.
In the meanwhile both governements would share financials so as to solve the issues.
Many people are preparing their pacages to go to India.
But we don't live in a dream world...
Or do we?


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## sancho

halloweene said:


> In a dream world, HAL has started constructing facilities


The same would then apply to Reliance and can you show that they have constructed any facilities yet, since they didn't have even the basic infrastructure? If not, Dassault is showing obvious double standards and fake arguments!
Not to mention that the main part of the delay is based on Dassault complying to the offset and ToT requirements, not on the liability issue, so that's not an excuse for the 3 years that we wait now.

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## halloweene

Reliance has never been meant to be prime constructor in India, but just to assure a second supply chain.


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## sancho

halloweene said:


> *Reliance has never been meant to be prime constructor in India*, but just to assure a second supply chain.



No, but the prime partner of Dassault for the construction of Rafale parts in India and last year both announced that they plan to build a facility. So if Dassault is complaining about a delay of constructing facilities, THEIR prime partner must be doing better than HAL so far. 
More importantly though, HAL is not meant to be the prime constructor either! HAL according to the RFP is the lead integrator, meaning that it assemble all parts that they get from Reliance, Samtel, BEL or other companies that will produce parts in India, next to the parts they also build and put them together. Dassault is free to provide 50% of the production to partners Dassault chooses and even the part HAL is meant to produce can and most likely will be outscourced to privat companies too, just as they do it today with the MKI. So neither is HAL bound to present something to Dassault, that not even the prime Indian partney Dassault chose can do today, nor does it even make any sense for Dassault to complain about this... 

...when they know that HAL already has licence production capabilities through their past in the Jaguar production 
...when they provided HAL with the know how the set up (afaik, but correct me if I'm wrong), the only foreign maintenance and overhaul hub for Mirage 2000 fighters
....when they even further provide HAL the know how and assistance to overhaul and upgrade the Mirage 2000s to 2K-5 standard
...
...
...

The relation of HAL and Dassault is not new, or started now with the selection of Rafale in 2012, but goes way back and there is not a single complaint from Dassault with the progress of HAL preparing for the M2K upgrade, preparing the new facilities for the upgrade, gaining know how by ToT and assistance from Dassault and so on. The ONLY complain of Dassault is related to the Rafale and ONLY after the partnership with Reliance was made. Dassault knew that HAL will be the lead integrator since 2007, when the RFP was send out, they know about HALs capabilties as mentioned even longer and still didn't complained or even rejected the RFP. 
All this makes clear, that there is a reason behind Dassaults sudden and specific move against HAL in MMRCA, or who might be actually behind it. It might had been worth a try, but at least when the IAF and the MoD rejected that, Dassault should had moved forward to ease things and not to keep things complicated.


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## CONNAN

*Rafale fighter jet transfer talks put on fast track: Richier*

*





AP*

The French Ambassador said the negotiations,which started in early 2012, have taken three years due to the "importance and complexity" of the deal.
Negotiations regarding the transfer of Rafale fighter jets from France to India have made good progress and have been put on fast track, Ambassador of France to India, Francois Richier, said in Kolkata on Wednesday.
Voicing satisfaction over the talks, Mr. Richier, who was on a three-day visit to Kolkata told journalists that the talks, which started in early 2012, have taken three years due to the "importance and complexity" of the deal.

“We have decided to finish the negotiations quickly, to put negotiation on fast track. To complete that, there is no date fixed but conclusion of negotiations is on the fast track,” the Ambassador said.

Rafale fighter jet transfer talks put on fast track: Richier - The Hindu

*

*

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## DrSomnath999

*AIR & COSMOS N2434 19 december 2014

*
interesting series this time from air & cosmos related to different fighters available in the market
of course Rafale is there

For easy work of translation refer to olybrius post later & but sadly i would be doing the difficult work i.e posting some nice pics from the magazine
















thanks

*CHEERS*

ok dont worry i would translate those articles later when i have time

*CHEERS*

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## DrSomnath999

*AIR & COSMOS N2434 19 december 2014*





RAFALE

THE AGE OF MATURITY

ENTRY INTO SERVICE THERE JUST OVER TEN YEARS, THE RAFALE COLLECTS SUCCESSES. ALL OPERATIONS, THE RAFALE IS THE MOST BRILLIANT BOMBARDIER HUNTER OF HIS GENERATION

Late 1970s, the Air Force and Navy express their need for a new fighter to replace nearly five types of aircraft: it must be multirôle (air to air, air to ground, deterrence ), capable of evolving from an aircraft carrier,

yet rugged, discrete, manageable and view large carrying capacity. A real challenge! Dassault is working on an innovative jet project. The first flight took place in July 1986. Nearly thirty years later, the Rafale has become one of the spearheads of the france defence ensuring nuclear deterrence posture! This Fighter aircraft conducts daily missions air policing, bombing various theaters of operation and evolves from the aircraft carrier "Charles de Gaulle".

MULTI-COMBAT PROVEN.

Since its entry into service, there ten years, the latest of france combat jet continues to demonstrate the relevance of its capabilities.

The Dassault aircraft was engaged throughout. IT has increased the operations around the globe. In Afghanistan, first of all, where he conducted bombing missions against the Taliban in support of the troops of ISAF (International Security Force Assistance) from the aircraft carrier "Charles de Gaulle" or base NATO Kandahar. Then, in mid-January 2011, by presidential order, the fighter is "entered first" in libyan air space






when, faced with intense air defense, he led the earliest without any loss bombing Gaddafi's forces. A feat which few are capable of doing. The Harmattan opération demonstrated the maturity of the jet and the confidence of the French General Staff in the Rafale capabilities. From libyan skies to Mali the rafrale flew in January 2013 to support French soldiers in connection with the operation Serval and came to the rescue of the Malian government, threatened


by Islamist terrorist groups. Then, in April of this year, as part of the operations of "reinsurance" of NATO, four Rafale Air Force has secured the airspace of the Baltic countries, shaken by the Ukrainian crisis. Finally, last September, the Rafale was the first European jet to fly over Iraqi territory for reconnaissance and bombing opératioas in support of the coalition led by Washington to fight against the terrorist group Daech. The Chammal operation is particularly burdensome for six Rafale made

*in box part*


> The flight to export
> 
> After years of doubts marked by the failure of a Brazilian contract, the Rafale export has never been so close to success. Jean-Yves Le Drian, who visited India in mid-December, returned confident about the outcome of negotiations with New Delhi. Entered into exclusive talks since January 2012, the Team Rafale (Dassault, Safran, Thales) stumbles on the contractual terms, including the responsibilities of the Rafale, which will be assembled on site. For ordered 126 units, 108 are to be produced in India, through a partnership with HAL industrial. "Any disagreement will be resolved in an expedited manner," assured an Indian spokesman, suggesting an ad for the beginning of 2015. The other export potential client is Qatar. Already equipped with Dassault Mirage 2000-5, the Middle East emirate has expressed a need for 36 modern aircraft combat. A Qatari delegation of high level recently spent two weeks in Paris to study the French offer. In addition to its two most advanced prospects. Dassault part in many other competitions: Malaysia, Canada and Belgium.









based Al Dhafra United Arab Emirates, with transit times to the Iraqi sky several hours. Yet the French had, thanks to their capacities and equipment (Reco NG pod, 2ASM bomb) work wonders. But that's not all, the Rafale is still prepositioned in Chad as part of the barkhane mission. It must intervene on a large operation theater as ten times France.

VERSATILITY.

Over the past decade, the opex have been multiplied for the new French fighter. A new level of commitment and unprecedented for the French Air Force. But the record speaks for itself. Offering native versatility, the Rafale appears like an airplane perfectly suited to the context of the current crises. Rapidly deployable, efficiency, and especially

fully in line with current needs. For if many countries have launched in the early 1980s of modern combat aircraft programs, most of them born in the Cold War, are air superiority interceptors. Performance in this mission, adaptation to ground attack mission can only be limited. Just look hunters engaged in the last decade: the Eurofighter has made a very brief appearance during Operation Harmattan, the Gripen is







absent, the F22 trouble to drop some laser guided bombs, while the F-35 JSF is pending. Alongside aircraft
legacy of high demand once (F-16, Tornado, A-10, etc.), the Rafale is the only modern aircraft systematically engaged in opérations & mean while gradually the aircraft continued its rise to power .

Omnirole.

Since the first deliveries in the early 2000s, the Rafale's growing power has been gradual. The first standard FI was air-air configuration with Mica missiles and Magic R550. Then the F2 standard has seen the addition of air-ground capabilities with the carriage of guided bombs (2ASM) and additional tanks. Today is the F3 standard, delivered from 2009, which is in service. This standard note of omnirôles capabilities of the Rafale. It is now able to provide air-to-air mission (Mica) with either air-ground bombing (GBU, 2ASM) or recognition and laser designation (Pod Reco NG / Pod

Damocles), but also of strategic bombing (Scalp cruise missile or nuclear strike with ASMPA) mission air-sea (Exocet AM39) and electronic warfare capabilities (radar Thales RJ3E2 and Spectra). But another revolution, the passage of the radar RBE2 PESA to AESA technology (Active Electronically Scanned Array) that offers increased performance at the French plane, both in terms of detection that range, reliability or maintenance. With the first delivery in 2012,1e Rafale became the first European hunter with an active antenna radar. Finally, from 2018, the Air Force will receive another development, the F3R with the integration of the European long-range air to air Meteor missile and a new generation laser designation pod (PDLNG).

*in box part*


> ongoing development
> 
> The standard today Rafale service, F3.4 +, has some improvements over the F3, particularly in terms of self-protection, radar, man-machine interface or firing range. Notified on 31 December 2013, the F3R standard will, by 2018, the entry into service of air-air long-range missile MBDA Meteor and the new laser designation pod (PDLNG). Other innovations improving capacity AESA radar and electronic warfare system Spectra of Thales, as well as work on the binding of L16 tactical data. From 2018, France will launch the future standard of Rafae, F4, expected many of its renewed weapons and more inter-connectivity of the device with its environment (combat digital air-ground) ...




*COURTESY-DrSomnath999
thanks to me*

*BTW pak-fa part coming next in pak-fa thread*
*CHEERS*

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## DrSomnath999

ok folks 

pak-fa part is also posted enjoy
Sukhoi PAK-FA / FGFA: Updates,News & Discussions | Page 146

*CHEERS*


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## SUDIP

Tweets from Siv aroor

Livefist ‏@livefist 10h10 hours ago
Spent some time with some HAL folks this week here in Bangalore. Level of chagrin & hostility with @Dassault_OnAir is thick. #MMRCA

Livefist ‏@livefist 10h10 hours ago
There's been some epic bickering between Dassault & HAL that hasn't been reported. Details soon on Livefist. #MMRCA

 http://idrw.org/?p=51422 

I am now in the impression that all is not going well inside the discussion room. even it sorted out what abt the working realtion between hal and dassault. From above you can sence that this GOI is also mulling over alternatives to MMRCA?

@sancho @halloweene @DrSomnath999 @Abingdonboy an thoughts guys...


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## DrSomnath999

i have posted my views here

Rafale Deal Nosedives in Negotiation Combat


all i can say is wait for March 2015 if by that time things didnt get sorted out

then we have the right to see / infact if situation demands us we can go for other options also


*CHEERS*

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## sancho

SUDIP said:


> I am now in the impression that all is not going well inside the discussion room. even it sorted out what abt the working realtion between hal and dassault. From above you can sence that this GOI is also mulling over alternatives to MMRCA?



Well that HAL is not really happy with Dassaults public criticism shouldn't be surprising, especially after such a long time that they have relations with French aviation industry, but they don't reply in a similar manner (which is good), while the important figures are responding pretty strongly! Former DM Antony and former Air Chief Browne made clear, that Dassault has to stick to the demands shown in the RFP and if the new DM now follows that route and makes a strong statement, that's perfect because we simply are in the better position to negotiate. I even would take the next step now and make an open request to the EF consortium, to know how they would comply to the liability issue, or if they have similar problems with HAL. If they don't it's either Dassaults move to comply, or ours to put the negotiations with Dassault on hold and move to the L2, since that is the procedure of the competition. We purposely went with 2 options that suits IAFs requirements and just selected Rafale for prefered negotiations, if these don't work out, the 2nd option must be approached, as simple as that.

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## nik22

sancho said:


> Well that HAL is not really happy with Dassaults public criticism shouldn't be surprising, especially after such a long time that they have relations with French aviation industry, but they don't reply in a similar manner (which is good), while the important figures are responding pretty strongly! Former DM Antony and former Air Chief Browne made clear, that Dassault has to stick to the demands shown in the RFP and if the new DM now follows that route and makes a strong statement, that's perfect because we simply are in the better position to negotiate. I even would take the next step now and make an open request to the EF consortium, to know how they would comply to the liability issue, or if they have similar problems with HAL. If they don't it's either Dassaults move to comply, or ours to put the negotiations with Dassault on hold and move to the L2, since that is the procedure of the competition. We purposely went with 2 options that suits IAFs requirements and just selected Rafale for prefered negotiations, if these don't work out, the 2nd option must be approached, as simple as that.


Agree with you on Rafale after long time! 
That is the path to follow. Looks like Rafale was planning to take India on ride when they responded to RFP.


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## Pichkari

sancho said:


> Well that HAL is not really happy with Dassaults public criticism shouldn't be surprising, especially after such a long time that they have relations with French aviation industry, but they don't reply in a similar manner (which is good), while the important figures are responding pretty strongly! Former DM Antony and former Air Chief Browne made clear, that Dassault has to stick to the demands shown in the RFP and if the new DM now follows that route and makes a strong statement, that's perfect because we simply are in the better position to negotiate. I even would take the next step now and make an open request to the EF consortium, to know how they would comply to the liability issue, or if they have similar problems with HAL.* If they don't it's either Dassaults move to comply, or ours to put the negotiations with Dassault on hold and move to the L2, since that is the procedure of the competition. We purposely went with 2 options that suits IAFs requirements and just selected Rafale for prefered negotiations, if these don't work out, the 2nd option must be approached, as simple as that*.




IMO the ministry will go through with the tender and compromises by either of them will be made.
We should have started negotiations simultaneously with two vendors right from day1 and then the final bids should have been opened.
The more delay by MOD lesser the chances of EFT getting back in and Dassault knows this.
If the ministry at this stage decides to put the talks on hold and start afresh with eft ,India will be screwed,royally.
In this cutthroat competition an action like this implicitly means showing dassalut the door.
In such a scenario all dassault has to do is walk away and voila, a new tango with a single vendor starts which will last for atleast three years,realistically speaking.
By the time then EFT arrives i would be talking to little baby sanchos on pdf


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## sancho

Pichkari said:


> We should have started negotiations simultaneously with two vendors right from day1 and then the final bids should have been opened.



That's not possible, because the main part of what we see since 2012, is Dassault and Co. searching for suitable Indian partners to divert production, which is their work to comply to the ToT and offset requirements. It's a misconception of the media that we did negotiations with Dassault or that we could had fixed the deal without Dassault finishing their work, but would had taken even more time if 2 vendors would have to do it, especially since there are not too many suitable Indian companies anyway.
However, the L2 is the backup plan that we have, if the L1 can't do it and even if I still think the Rafale is currently the better fighter, all that counts is, what's the best for India and if Dassault can't comply to our demands, maybe a less capable EF with a bigger industrial consortium is the better alternative?



Pichkari said:


> If the ministry at this stage decides to put the talks on hold and start afresh with eft ,India will be screwed,royally.



They don't have to, all they need to know at this point is, how the EF consortium would deal with the liability issue and then we can decide to give Dassault another chance, or if it's time to talk with the desperate Germans and Brits. 



Pichkari said:


> By the time then EFT arrives i would be talking to little baby sanchos on pdf



Well I still think that the EF is actually the fastest solution for us, which could be available in higher numbers at the same time Rafale would be. But lets see what will come first, M-MRCA or kids, the latter at least can be influenced by me.

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## DrSomnath999

*From Asian Military Review Dec-14-Jan-15
*















merry christmas everyone

may santa gift us Rafale deal by dassault agreeing to our liabilty clause demand 

*CHEERS*

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## Stephen Cohen

@sancho 

Why are you so confident that Eurofighter Consortium will agree to 
all our demands 

I believe they will NOT 
We will face exactly the same problems as with Dassault - HAL : Responsibility and work share etc 

And in matters of TOT and offsets we will get even less 

That is because out of the four countries ONLY UK is keen to sell Typhoon to India
That is because of the traditional UK France rivalry 

Germany's economy is very strong ; it does not care about Typhoon's future 

Our officials will go crazy negotiating and dealing with four countries 

It is going to be Rafale or NOTHING back to SU 30 or MAYBE even SU 35 and SU 34


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## Dillinger

Stephen Cohen said:


> @sancho
> 
> Why are you so confident that Eurofighter Consortium will agree to
> all our demands
> 
> I believe they will NOT
> We will face exactly the same problems as with Dassault - HAL : Responsibility and work share etc
> 
> And in matters of TOT and offsets we will get even less
> 
> That is because out of the four countries ONLY UK is keen to sell Typhoon to India
> That is because of the traditional UK France rivalry
> 
> Germany's economy is very strong ; it does not care about Typhoon's future
> 
> Our officials will go crazy negotiating and dealing with four countries
> 
> It is going to be Rafale or NOTHING back to SU 30 or MAYBE even SU 35 and SU 34



Correct about the complexities of dealing with multiple nations involved in the consortium. 

The ToT involved in the Rafale deal is as it is M-ToT meant to ensure strategic and operational autonomy, at best the know how and not the know why. With the EF consortium to renegotiate even an equivalent level of ToT will in itself take a long time.


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## sancho

Stephen Cohen said:


> Why are you so confident that Eurofighter Consortium will agree to
> all our demands



I didn't said they will, I said we should ask them how they would comply to that demand, because we have the L2 as an option and that makes us to be in the better position to negotiate. The vendors have only the option to either comply or not, but are dependent on our final decisions, while we can choose between 2 options and take the more suitable one.
And why I am more confident about the EF consortium, once because they include bigger companies than the Rafale partners, with available and strong ties to the Indian industry. But most importantly, because BAE already knows what we want and how HAL works through the Hawk licence production. We even saw the exact problems in the Hawk deal, that we are trying to avoid in the M-MRCA, by BAE fully suporting the off the shelf delivered Hawks, while messing up the licence production at HAL, by delivering wrong toolings with the result that MoD punished them with penalities. So BAE learned their lessons, today fully supports HAL and the Hawk production is even ahead of the planned schedule, which shows that things can work fine, if the foreign vendor wants it!
It's natural that any foreign vendor will try to get the most out for their interests and I don't even blame Dassault for trying that, but we have to look at our interests and that's why we go the competition way, to be in the better position to demand, negotiate and get at least close to what we want.



Stephen Cohen said:


> And in matters of TOT and offsets we will get even less
> 
> That is because out of the four countries ONLY UK is keen to sell Typhoon to India
> That is because of the traditional UK France rivalry
> 
> Germany's economy is very strong ; it does not care about Typhoon's future



That's plain wrong, since they already stated similar ToT proposals, besides the fact that we would be a real partner in the project, which gives us far more access to techs and chances to actually be involved in the EF upgrades. The latter in fact is the main problem with Dassault now, where the F3R upgrade shows us where we stand, "outside" of the Rafale upgrade path like any export customers. We can fund and integrate certain upgrade options, but there is obviously no interest in jointly developing upgrades for French and Indian forces / requirements. The chances to include Indian techs and include Indian industry into the upgrade of EF are far higher than with Rafale, which is why the industrial offer of the EF consortium could had been even better than Dassaults, which was even evident by the proposals to include us in AESA radar and TVC developments.

And no, it's not only the UK that is keen to sell EF's, it's all partners because they had to cancel their T3B orders which causes madatory penalties. German news recently stated, that the government must pay around 500 million Euros to the industry and cash strapped partners like Spain or Italy (which were hit hard by the finacial crisis years), obviously would like to avoid these penalties too. The minimum M-MRCA order pretty much covers the complete T3B order of the 4 partner nations and would have solved this problems, but the penalties are not the only issue, since the lack of orders will lead to an end of the EF production by 2018, that leads to 1000s of people getting unemployed. So these factors alone makes the EF partner nations and industry, far more desperate to comply to our demands and sell us the EF, than Dassault is, because Rafale production is secured beyond 2020 and Dassault is not dependent on Rafale sales to increase profits.


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## PARIKRAMA

Parliament panel slams MoD's 'lackadaisical approach'


finally the truth.. Rs 2645 crs allocated for IAF new purchases vs requisite of 12k Cr implying no scope of Rafale purchase or Jaguar upgrades or intensive new acquisitions... So now we know rest all stories is just paint work of reporter fiction.. We cant sign the deal this FY as such..


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## sancho

From the MP forum (credits to Olybrius)



> *Sagem wants to qualify AASM on Mirage 2000.*
> 
> _The challenge is to sustain a strategic industry pending Rafale export [...]
> "It's interesting for us, _*even though there will be no additional order in the military planning law*_. [...] This will maintain production at Sagem and offers prospects for export, " said General Mercier .[...]_
> 
> _For Sagem, it is urgent: without new orders, _*the production line*_ of the factory in Montlucon (Allier) _*will end in May 2016, and it will be very expensive to restart later*_. If negotiations with Qatar and India for the sale of Rafale succeed early next year, the problem will only partially resolved: the first aircraft will not be delivered before three years, not until 2018, at best. We must find other outlets. [...] Peru is interested and *Egypt if, ultimately, Cairo could not buy the Rafale *[...]_



L'avenir de l'un des armements les plus sensibles du Rafale en suspens, Industrie & Services

Poor Sagem, desperate to sell the AASM, but it shows the problem not only of the weapon but also for potential customers that must consider that the weapon might not be available anymore when the first fighter arrives. 
Also interesting the note on Egypt, wonder if they are talking about finacial or political issues to buy Rafale?


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## Abingdonboy

NEW DELHI: France France will be sending an empowered representative in early January 2015 to thrash out issues concerning the estimated *$11 billion deal *for 126 Rafale combat jets from Dassault Aviation for the air force, India's Defense Minister Manohar Parrikar said here on Dec. 30, 2014.

Arming India

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## sathya

Abingdonboy said:


> NEW DELHI: France France will be sending an empowered representative in early January 2015 to thrash out issues concerning the estimated *$11 billion deal *for 126 Rafale combat jets from Dassault Aviation for the air force, India's Defense Minister Manohar Parrikar said here on Dec. 30, 2014.
> 
> Arming India




WoW, too good to believe..

then why the hell did we upgrade mirages for such a high cost..

may New Year bring more good news..


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## Abingdonboy

sathya said:


> WoW, too good to believe..
> 
> then why the hell did we upgrade mirages for such a high cost..
> 
> may New Year bring more good news..


I find $11 BN hard to believe as the most credible reported figure is $15-16 BN

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## sathya

Abingdonboy said:


> I find $11 BN hard to believe as the most credible reported figure is $15-16 BN



maybe it's the initial contract value in 2003-5


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## Stephen Cohen

@sancho

Rafale in storm clouds, Parrikar says IAF can make do with Sukhoi-30s | Business Standard News

'Sukhoi option still there if Rafale talks collapse' - Hindustan Times

I told you there is NO Eurofighter option


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## SQ8

Thread too extended/large. Continue discussions here
Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]


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